I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, during the war in South Africa, the Prime Minister received any cables from Mr. Kruger which have not yet been laid upon the Table of the House.

The answer to this question is in the negative.

Does that answer refer to the late as well as the present Prime Minister?

Certainly.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the statement laid by Sir George White before the War Office, detailing the history of the siege of Ladysmith and his observations thereon, will now be published; and on what public ground, having regard to the fact that peace has been concluded, has the publication of this document been suppressed.

Sir George White's despatches on the siege of Ladysmith were presented to Parliament last year.

But I want another Paper, the one he laid before the War Office with full details and comments.

I do not know of any such Paper.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what action, if any, has been taken by the War Office with reference to a statement made by Sir George White, shortly after the termination of the siege of Ladysmith, and permitted by the military press censor to be telegraphed to this country, that efforts had been made by the War Office to supersede him, and that these efforts were prevented by the action of Sir Redvers Buller.

I know nothing of such a statement, and no action has been or will be taken.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the statement was made by Sir George White to the hon. Member for Oldham?

Order, order!

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a book or document headed "Military Notes on the Dutch Republics in South Africa," compiled in Section B, Intelligence Division, War Office, Revised June 1899, was found on the person of a British officer at Dundee after the engagement at or near that town; and, seeing that extracts from that book or document have been published in a history on the recent war in South Africa, whether he will lay a copy of the whole book or document upon the Table of the House.

The hon. Member is evidently unaware that copies of this work were placed in the library of the House on the 12th December, 1900.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will lay upon the Table the Report of Sir Robert Grant upon the conduct of certain gentlemen cadets of the Royal Military College at the Camberley Fair.

No, Sir. I am not prepared to lay on the Table Papers connected with this subject while the conduct of these cadets is under the investigation of the Commander-in-Chief.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the nature of the inquiry the Commander-in-Chief intends to make into the case of the cadets rusticated from the Royal Military College; and whether the Commander-in-Chief will associate with himself in that inquiry the Judge Advocate General.

Before this Question is answered, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether these general and corporate punishments are not uncommon in the Army, and whether there is any other practical way of dealing with such offences?

My hon. and gallant friend. I am sure, reflects the general feeling that the Commander-in-Chief would not have resorted to this form of punishment unless he thought it absolutely necessary. The inquiry will be conducted personally by the Commander-in-Chief, and it is not proposed to associate the Judge Advocate General with him.

Is it contemplated to accept the assurance of any cadet on his honour that he is innocent, supposing there is no evidence against him?

I am afraid I must inform my noble friend that it is impossible for the Commander-in-Chief, who is charged with the discipline of the Army, to conduct an investigation and give a decision if I am beforehand to announce the regulations that will guide him.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what is going to be done?

Order, order! That is going beyond the Question on the Paper.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Gentleman-cadet Corporal J. S. Oldham, who was rusticated from the Royal Military College on 3rd July; whether he is aware that this cadet was absent on sick leave in London on 11th June, when the disorder at Camberley Fair took place; and, in view of the character borne by this cadet, will he say what evidence there is to connect him with the outbreak of fire on 25th June.

This cadet was absent on the 11th June on sick leave. He was, however, present in "C" Company passage about the time the fire in No. 100 room took place, and he was, therefore, rusticated with the-twenty-eight others. The Commander-in-Chief will consider his case with the others.

Did the right hon. Gentleman not say that this cadet was implicated in the previous disorder?

No, Sir, I did not. I said there were a large number of cadets who were implicated in this disorder, but I did not say that all the twenty-nine were implicated.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can say what will be the expense of holding a special examination in London at the end of this month for the twenty-nine cadets who have been rusticated from Sandhurst; whether the expenses of the cadets in travelling to and from London for that purpose will be defrayed by the State; whether notice has yet been conveyed to the parents that their sons should hold themselves in readiness to be examined.

The expense of the examination will fall on Army Votes. The reply to the other two Questions is in the affirmative.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, at the investigation promised by the Commander-in-Chief in regard to the fire at Sandhurst, each of the twenty-nine cadets rusticated will appear separately before the Court, or whether all will be allowed to be present during the investigation; whether any cadet who pledges his honour that he was not in the passages leading into the room where the fire took place during the three-quarters of an hour before it was discovered, or that he does not know who was the author of the fire, will be relieved of his rustication; whether the three servants in the quarters of "C" Company on 25th June will be examined, and evidence taken as to the possibility of any person having been in the quarters of "C" Company during the three-quarters of an hour previous to the fire, and having left the building before the fire was discovered; whether the senior cadets wore invited to investigate the origin of the fire of 25th June and of previous fires at Sandhurst; and, if not, whether they will be invited to make such investigation, and be granted facilities for doing so.

The Commander-in-Chief has undertaken to go personally into the case of these cadets. It is not proposed to hold a further inquiry by a Board. I cannot make a further statement on the matter till the Commander-in-Chief has made his investigations.

When will the Commander-in-Chief make an investigation?

He is carrying on the investigation, I think, today, and possibly on the following days.

And when may we expect to know the result?

I am not in a position to say, but the result will be communicated to the House.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state what arrangements, if any, have been made for the dates and places of provisional camps for Infantry Volunteers who have not and will not be able to attend their own camps this year; and whether due notice has been or will be promulgated as to the arrangements for such provisional camps.

As these provisional camps are intended for Volunteers who are unable to attend their own camps, it is evident that the arrangements would only be made late in the season. These arrangements rest with the general officers commanding districts.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state the extent of the Crown foreshore adjoining Cork Harbour which in November, 1899, was let to the War Department at a rental of 2s. 6d. per annum; and, seeing that the Commissioners of Woods and Forests state, at page 74 of their report dated 28th June, 1901, that no rent was paid, as in June, 1900, the War Department purchased the foreshore, will he state the amount of the purchase money.

The extent of foreshore amounts to sixteen perches, and the purchase money to £3.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that the recruiting Returns for the quarters ending 31st March and 30th June show smaller numbers than those of previous years especially with respect to the Infantry of the Line and the Militia, although the additional inducements have been recently offered to recruits; and whether he will say what steps, if any, he proposes to take to deal with this difficulty.

No, Sir. Omitting 1900, which was quite an exceptional year, the Returns show an improvement on previous years as regards the Infantry of the Line; and as regards the militia an increase over the figures for 1900 as well. But I must warn the hon. Member against comparing the figures of recruiting after the close of the war with the number raised during moments of great popular enthusiasm.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the number of fatal accidents which have occurred on the Glasgow Corporation electric tramway system since the installation of electric traction on the 1st May, 1901; and what lifeguards and brakes are provided by the corporation under Articles 1 and 6, of sub section A, of the Glasgow Corporation Tramways Act, 1899.

I am informed by the General Manager of the Glasgow Corporation Tramways that, since 1st May, 1901, twenty-two accidents attended with fatal results have occurred on these lines. It is stated that the great majority of the cars are fitted with a lifeguard of an approved type, consisting of a feeler and a dropping scoop. Other guards in use are (1) a wire guard, (2) a V-shaped double share, and (3) an angled single share. Two brakes are in use on every car, viz., a mechanical brake and an electric brake, the latter operating by short-circuiting the motors.

Are these brakes in accordance with the Glasgow Corporation Tramways Act?

I have no reason to suppose that they are not.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether His Majesty's Government have arrived at any decision with reference to the employment of electricity in mines and the means of avoiding the recent loss of life and injury resulting therefrom.

I have decided to appoint a Departmental Committee to inquire into the subject; and the Committee is now in process of formation.

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether the public now have access to the Queen's cottage grounds in Kew Gardens; whether the gates have been unlocked; and whether the grounds have been thrown open again to the public, in accordance with the permission given by Her late Majesty.

Yes, Sir. The answer is in the affirmative.

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland if, under the provisions of the Extradition Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland and the United States, a person charged with cattle houghing, arson and perjury in Ireland, who has found refuge in the United States, can be brought to Ireland for trial there.

Yes, sir. The Extradition Treaty between this country and the United States applies to some of these crimes.

Is it the intention of the Irish Government to apply for the extradition of Sheridan?

I must have notice of the Question.

Order, order! The hon. Member must put that Question down.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if, with a view to the convenience of tenant purchasers in Ireland, the Land Commission will notify to them that, when distant from branches of the Bank of Ireland, their purchase instalments may be paid into any other bank for transmission to the Bank of Ireland.

The local branches of all Irish banks, as well as of the Bank of Ireland, accept lodgment of the purchase instalments, and an intimation to this effect is set out on the face of the Receivable Orders, which are filled up by the tenant purchasers.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what steps the Government propose to take in the matter of the equivalent grant for technical instruction in Ireland, and when the arrears due to Ireland in relation to that grant will be paid.

This matter is still engaging the consideration of Government. There are no arrears due to Ireland.

was understood to ask if the result of the investigation would be communicated to the Irish Government before the end of the session.

It does not depend on myself. It rests primarily with the Treasury, with whom I am in communication. I will communicate the result as soon as it is arrived at.

May we hope for an announcement before the end of the session?

I hope so, but I cannot promise.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can give the names of the different libraries on the Continent to which reference is made in the recently issued Report of the Commissioners for the Publication of the Ancient Laws and Institutes of Ireland, as containing important Irish MSS.

A communication on this subject has been addressed to the hon. Secretary of the Commissioners. When I hear from him, I will write to the hon. Member.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether any communication has passed between him and Lord de Freyne, or between the Congested Districts Board and Lord de Freyne, with the view of ascertaining if Lord de Freyne is willing to sell his estate to the tenants, or to the Congested Districts Board.

No, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Lord de Freyne has publicly stated his willingness to sell, if the Government think it is in the public interest he should do so?

Not that I am aware of. I saw some reference to it in a local paper, but I have no knowledge of it.

The right hon. Gentleman, I presume, is not interested in the matter.

May I—

Order, order! The Question on the Paper has been fully answered.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the names of the police constables connected with Sergeant Sheridan who received an indemnity at the secret investigation which preceded Sheridan's dismissal; how many of those constables are still in the force; and whether those who have retired received a pension or gratuity; and, if so, what amount.

The Question contains a serious misrepresentation of the order of events. The investigation did not precede Sheridan's discharge. He was discharged on February 9th, and the investigation, beginning in May, was continued in June and July. The names asked for are Sergeant Keegan, Constables Anderson and Reid. One (Anderson) remained on at the Depôt. The others (Keegan and Reid) accepted the alternative of resigning. They received no pensions, but were assisted to make a fresh start in life by a compassionate grant of £200 and £50 respectively.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the fatal accident at Messrs. R. & R. Allen's Steam Saw Mills, Wexford, by which a boy named John Cullen was killed, and to the fact that the occupier, Mr. Moody, was prosecuted by Mr. Bellhouse, His Majesty's inspector of factories, for failure to fence part of the machinery; and, seeing that the Bench dismissed the summons, will he say whether he has received any official report showing the reason for the dismissal of this case; and will he state whether he proposes to take any action in this case.

I have received a report on this case, and find that the Bench refused to say more as to the grounds on which they dismissed the case than that their decision was based on a point of fact and not on a point of law. It would appear from this that they consider that such protection of the machinery as the evidence showed that there was constituted a sufficient fencing. In these circumstances no appeal lies, and there is no action which I can take on the case; but I may say that the inspector reports further that the fencing has, since the accident, been carried out in a proper manner.

I wish, with the permission of the House, to make a brief personal explanation. The other day† I asked the Chief Secretary

† See preceding volume, p. 696.

for Ireland a Question with reference to the employment, as an expert witness in handwriting in a criminal case, of an official assignee of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland named Mr. Macintyre; and in a supplementary Question I inquired whether the Solicitor General for Ireland had not described Mr. Macintyre as an I impostor. Since then my attention has been called to the letter in the newspapers from the Solicitor General for Ireland, in which he says—"I deem it but just to Mr. Macintyre to state that neither upon that nor on any other occasion did I refer to him as an impostor as suggested by Mr. Redmond. It is quite true that in the defence of my client I endeavoured, by very severe criticism, to discount his evidence as an expert in handwriting, but I did not use that expression." Although I hold the strongest possible views with regard to the employment of an official of the Bankruptcy Court as an expert in handwriting in criminal prosecutions in Ireland, I desire to express my regret for having unwittingly been the means of circulating a statement which was unfounded in reference to this Gentleman. The Solicitor General did riot use the word impostor, and I am sorry I suggested it.

said he wished to ask the Vice-President a question with regard to an acute difficulty that had arisen as to the temporary Act, passed last year, known as the Cockerton Judgment Act. That Act provided that the municipalities should give their sanction to the evening continuation school work of the School Boards, which had been declared illegal by the Cockerton judgment, down to 31st July of this year only; and, as the Education Bill would not be passed until the autumn session, the evening continuation schools would have to come to an end on that day unless some way out of the difficulty was found. The situation was a very critical one, and he wanted to know if it was not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to find some way out of the difficulty. The Vice-President stated, in reply to a question by the hon. Member for North West Ham on the subject, that the municipalities might rely upon the assurance of the Government that they would not be surcharged if they carried on the evening continuation schools after 31st July. That was a somewhat clumsy, and certainly not a legal, way of dealing with the difficulty, and, notwithstanding the assurance thus given, it was quite possible that many municipalities would be chary to undertake this expenditure of money without legal sanction. He suggested, as a way out of the difficulty, the extension of the operation of the Cockerton Act for another year. It would surely be quite possible, with the consent of hon. Members on both sides, to allow such a Bill to go through without discussion, and he was sure hon. Members were equally, with himself, anxious that the excellent educational work now being done should not be brought to a standstill.

hoped the Vice-President of the Council would be able to give a favourable and explicit reply to the question of the hon. Member for North Camberwell. The municipalities wished to carry on the evening continuation schools, as the work seemed to them to be of great advantage. It was clear that the Education Bill debates would not be finished in time to enable this point to be dealt with in the measure, and if all parties, recognising the value of the work, would agree to the maintenance of the status quo there ought to be no difficulty in making the suggested arrangement. Could the Bill not be included in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill? He was confident it was the general wish of the municipalities that they should be authorised to continue the work, the value of which was greatly appreciated.

, whose voice was almost inaudible in the gallery, was understood to urge the necessity of preventing the work of the evening continuation schools being brought to a standstill. He thought that if an agreement could be come to it might also be possible in the same Bill to clear up some doubts which had arisen as to the transference of schools.

called attention to the grievance of teachers with reference to the insecurity of their tenure. Teachers were liable to be dismissed without any cause whatever. They were subject to the caprice of managers. They were a very hard-working body of men, and they felt this grievance most acutely. No class of civil servants in the country were so badly treated or had so insecure a footing. Even Members of Parliament knew two years beforehand what their fate was likely to be. Seeing that the House was going to sit till Christmas over the Education Bill, he suggested to the Vice-President that he should formulate a Clause dealing with the matter to be brought before the House on the Education Bill.

The hon. and gallant Member is not entitled to discuss in Committee of Supply a matter which he admits requires legislation.

Then I hope the right hon. Gentleman will bring in a Bill.

Order, order! The hon. Member has only made his position worse.

Then may I say that I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give a categorical answer on this Question?

said he wished to associate himself with the appeal of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite. He had several times asked questions of the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, and received very favourable answers. It was clear they had his sympathy with their efforts to find for the teachers who were wrongfully dismissed some means of redress, but they had been told also by the right hon. Gentleman that the remedy was in their own hands. If that were so, could he not find a place for a Clause dealing with it in the Education Bill? Let him give his sympathy a practical turn and help them in carrying such a Clause.

confessed that he could see no solution of the Cockerton difficulty except the introduction of a short Bill by the Government to continue the Act passed last year. There might be a Bill merely extending the period of the Act, or a Bill going a little further and giving power to authorities to sanction the extension of the work. He thought the latter would be the easier one to get through the House. He feared that if a mere Continuation Bill were introduced some Members would feel it their duty to enter a protest.

Order, order! The hon. Member is entirely spoiling his case by discussing legislation.

said this was a question closely connected with the administration of the Board of Education and surely they were entitled to discuss it on the Vote for the right hon Gentleman's salary. A serious state of things was likely to arise in the country and he was pointing out to the right hon. Gentleman that hon. Members on his side would be far more ready to let a proposal go through without opposition if it included powers—

The hon. Member is again discussing legislation, and that is not in order in Committee of Supply. We can only discuss matters of administration.

said that under the circumstances he would merely press on the right hon. Gentleman the fact that there was danger of this evening school work being brought to a complete standstill for a second year. He was sure the House would gladly help the right hon. Gentleman in any efforts to remove the difficulty.

asked when the proposals of the Prime Minister with regard to day training colleges would be put into operation. He did not suppose that in the first year a sum of more than £7,000 would be required, and the sooner they got the proposals into operation the better, because the university colleges might be making arrangements for the reception of students.

asked the Vice President whether he could not see his way to meet the Cockerton difficulty administratively. He suggested that the Local Government Board might issue a circular to School Boards, undertaking not to surcharge them for a specified period with the cost of carrying on evening classes and other work now declared to be illegal.

said that after the ruling of the Chairman as to the, discussion of legislative proposals he was in some difficulty with a reply to the hon. Member for North Camberwell, but, perhaps he might be allowed to say that the difficulty in connection with the Cockerton Act had been present to the Board of Education for many months past, and they were quite alive to it. It was quite evident that the matter could not be put right administratively, as the Board had no power to enable people to spend money which they could not spend legally; and with regard to the suggestion that his right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board should issue a circular inviting the School Boards to break the law, and assuring them that they would not be surcharged, he should think it was highly improbable that it would be carried out. He was afraid that this was a matter which could only be cured by legislation; and he would merely say that the suggestion of the hon. Member for Camberwell seemed to him an eminently practical one, and if it could be carried out it would be effective for the purpose. But it was evident that some hon. Members were extremely anxious to introduce Amendments into the law, and if fresh Amendments were to be introduced, it was quite impossible to pass a Bill at this period of the Session. All that the Government could do had been done. A question was put to him by his hon. friend the Member for North-West Ham, and he not only answered the question, but, on behalf of the Government— they were not his own words, but words the Government desired him to use—he gave the assurance to the School Boards which the hon. Member for North Camberwell had read. Further than that he did not see how the Government could possibly go. He was certainly not authorised to say anything more. That was all the Government could do without legislation. They could only give that assurance. Not only was that assurance given by him to the House, but a circular was addressed to every School Board carrying on evening schools directing their attention to it. He could only say that the Government were quite alive to the difficulty, and they recognised the suggestion of the hon. Member for North Camberwell as an eminently practical one which they would be glad to carry out. Everything that could be done by the Government should be done. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs as to the Prime Minister's proposals with reference to day training colleges, they would be placed in the form of a minute before the House of Commons as soon as the Education Bill was disposed of by the House. As to the other point that had been raised, be could only repeat that the subject of teachers' tenure was germane to the Bill before the House, and would evidently be raised in the course of the debates on that Bill. He quite admitted that it was desirable that some measure should be resorted to by Parliament to prevent teachers being dismissed, without cause, in a summary manner.

said he thought they were in a great difficulty at the present time; and he should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it would not be possible to meet it, by altering the conditions of the higher elementary schools, which were affected by the Cockerton judgment. Those schools had not been successful, owing to the difficult conditions under which they were placed; and the reason he was pressing the point now was that he, saw the difficulty they would be landed in in endeavouring to pass from elementary to secondary work in the future. Some better method of co-ordination than that which now existed would be required. He wished to ask whether some modification was not possible without legislation which would make the higher elementary schools more acceptable generally. An assurance to that effect would be a great help in carrying out the work of secondary education in the country.

said no doubt there had been irregularities in the debate; but he trusted he should not fall into any himself. The Vice-President referred to the First Lord of the Treasury as the Prime Minister, an office entirely unknown to the British Constitution. The First Lord of the Treasury was engaged in forming a Ministry; he trusted the Vice-President would form part of it. If not, the right hon. Gentleman would probably be unable to introduce the Bill he had referred to. He wished to call attention to a matter strictly within this Estimate. The Vote amounted to very nearly £10,000,000, and consisted largely of grants to various schools based on registration. The Comptroller and Auditor General had, however, reported that the records of the registration were incorrect; and as the matter affected no less than £8,500,000 out of £10,000,000, he would read an extract from the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General—

"A test examination by officers of my Department having brought to light numerous instances of incorrect registration and of consequent overpayment, I enquired whether the Board would itself institute a, complete audit of the Grants for the year."

The point of the Report was as follows—

"In reply to a communication from my Department calling attention to the faulty certificate, it is stated that 'The Board have usually relied on the particulars and certificates given by the Managers and teachers on Form 65 as a prevention of such duplication of payment as has here occurred.' While this statement has reference merely to the certificates on Form 65, it offers a convenient opportunity for calling attention to the fact that the large Grants payable not only under this Sub-head but also under Sub-heads C2, C4, C6 and C7, are based upon figures certified by the Managers and that therefore the trustworthiness of such certificates becomes a question of much importance."

He wished to call the attention of the Committee to the fact that Sub-heads C2, C4, C6, and C7 amounted altogether to £8,493,251, every half-penny of which was brought into doubt by the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Every item depended on the certificates of the registration of attendance furnished by the managers; and as doubt had been cast on them, it behoved the Committee to ask for some assurance that these certificates would in future be really accurate and would represent the facts. In one item of £200,000 an error of about £6,000 had been discovered, of which amount £4,200 was actually admitted. It was absolutely important, nay, essential, that the figures on which the grants were based should be accurate. When an error, such as he had mentioned, had been discovered, doubt was cast on the entire Vote; and in view of the enormous sums now granted for educational purposes and the greater demands of the future, it behoved the Committee to ask why the Education Department had not, long since, taken steps to ascertain the correctness of the figures on which it based its grants. He did not know what answer his right hon. friend would make; but if it were not satisfactory as regarded the past, he hoped his right hon. friend would be able to give the Committee an assurance as to the future; and that there would be a careful audit of selected items, in order that the Committee might know that the grants were not inaccurate or falsified—of course he did not mean falsified purposely.

said that the hon. Gentleman opposite was making a mountain out of a mole hill, when ho suggested that the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General cast doubt on every item in the Vote. As regarded science and art classes, and schools, the irregularities occurred in precisely the class of school which, owing to the administration of the right hon. Gentleman, could not be curried on by a School Board. In the right hon. Gentleman's process of running amuck at School Boards in his administration, he had forbidden the School Boards to become Committees for science and art schools and classes, although any congeries of private persons could constitute themselves a science and art Committee. If there was careless supervision the Committee could not wonder at irregularities occurring. With regard to registration, he would point out that there wore some 40,000,000 of entries every week as to the attendance and non-attendance of scholars; and the hon. Gentleman would see that it would be perfectly impossible for the Board of Education to audit such a number of entries. Ordinarily the managers of the schools were responsible for the accuracy of the entries—the large School Boards employed officers for that purpose; the inspectors and sub-inspectors of schools were also responsible, and if any doubt arose the Board of Education had the power to order an audit.

asked if the Board of Education had an expert to conduct such an audit.

said that the Board had power to appoint Inspectors of Returns, but it had not been frequently exercised. Having in view the immense number of registrations, a complete audit would be out of the question; and, as far as he knew, the existing safeguards were quite satisfactory. Since the House sat a very strong case had been made out for some check upon the managers of schools. There was the instance of a school mistress dismissed by a manager without good cause within a few months of the time when she could have claimed her superannuation allowance, at the age of sixty-four, when she was not likely to obtain another engagement, a mistress whose work had been commented upon by the inspector in a creditable manner. The result was that she was deprived of her employment and of any chance of the retiring allowance for that period to which she would have been entitled. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to amplify the statement he had already made today with regard to this matter. They might legislate for education and produce excellent schools, but if they had in those school teachers suffering from a sense of great injustice; if they were under the continual apprehension of some capricious action being taken against them which would deprive them of their means of livelihood, the country would not get from those teachers their best work, and education must suffer. It was not a question of the teachers alone. It was also a question of efficiency, and applied alike to the elementary and secondary schools. There was a general consensus of opinion among all teachers upon this point, it being equally strong among the secondary school teachers as among the elementary school teachers, and ho hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to say something which would allay the fears of all these teachers.

hoped that the Committee would agree to take the Vote without prolonged discussion, having regard to the amount of Parliamentary time occupied with educational matters. In reference to what had been said by the hon. Member for King's Lynn, the difficulty of obtaining correct returns of attendance was ever present with the Board in its dealings with 20,000 schools. Rules, regulations, inspections, and all kinds of measures had been taken to secure as much accuracy as possible. This matter was under the most serious attention of the Department. A report from the Auditor General always demanded such serious attention and consideration for improvement in the system. The new Bill would give an opportunity for this. Returns would be less numerous, and, vouched for by municipal and county authorities, would be more reliable than those furnished by irresponsible, and often careless, school managers. He therefore hoped that a better system for ascertaining attendance, on which the finance of the Department depended, would be carried out. He had often spoken on the subject of teachers' tenure of office, and, no doubt, would have to make many more speeches on that subject during the passage of the Bill now before the House. He really did not think he would be justified in inflicting another oration on the Committee, his opinions being well known and having been frequently expressed.

hoped the Department would take the greatest care in drawing up the new minute in reference to the training of teachers, a subject which had received new importance from the regulation in regard to registration. He hoped the Department would pursue a liberal policy, and not confine grants to hostels intended entirely for teachers. A case was brought to his attention recently of a class of young pupil teachers, who were being sent to the Oxford and Cambridge settlements, in the East End of London, a system which had produced excellent results. That was a movement which was now going on which might possibly be encouraged by the Education Department. From the point of view of general culture, it would be well to bring teachers into contact with other young men receiving a wider professional training. He congratulated the Vice-President on the better organisation of science and art instruction in higher schools.

expressed his desire to associate himself with what had been said as to the form of the new Minute dealing with the grants to be made to residential training colleges under the new Education Bill. He also wanted to emphasise in one word the necessity of giving more attention to securing reasonable tenure of office to the teachers of elementary schools. Having been brought into very close contact with the teachers throughout the county which he represented, he found there was practical unanimity amongst them in this matter. On this point all were agreed, and it was not often with regard to educational matters that unanimity could be found. The supreme consideration was so to arrange matters as to draw into the teaching profession the men best adapted for the, work. So long as the sense of insecurity prevailed among this class of public servants, the best work would not be obtained, and the educational interests of the country would suffer. Personally, he regarded the speech of the Vice-President as full of sympathy on the particular question under discussion, and if only sufficient pressure were brought to bear on the right hon. Gentleman and the Government, he believed that at no distant date some satisfactory arrangement would be arrived at. He hoped that before the Vote came up for discussion next year steps would be taken to remedy this evil, so that the teaching profession of the country would be able to go forward with their great public task without any of that fear which now arose from their insecure position.

was understood to express his agreement with the remarks of the hon. Member for East Somersetshire. A suggestion had been made as to the possibility of training colleges for teachers being so far arranged that they might afford the education required for secondary purposes in almost every district. As pupil teacher centres ought to be within reasonable distance of the centres where they were likely to find students, they would consequently be within reasonable distance of those who desired secondary education. He would suggest to the Vice President that under the arrangements which were to be made for the purpose of training teachers this point should not be lost sight of. He thought that the training of teachers and the provision of facilities for secondary education might very well go together.

desired to emphasise the point raised by the hon. Member for East Somersetshire as to the curriculum of science and aft schools. The curriculum imposed by South Kensington in the past had been too purely scientific. The number of hours devoted to science was about thirteen out of twenty-five, whereas in the realschulen in Germany, out of a week of twenty-nine or thirty hours the amount of time given to science was no greater. In the re-organisation of secondary education, what above all else was wanted, was to turn out men, not machines, and that object would not be secured unless due weight was given to humanistic as opposed to scientific teaching. He hoped that in this matter the Board of Education would be more liberal in its ideas than the Department at South Kensington had been.

called attention to what he considered was the inadequate support given by the Government to evening continuation schools. In reply to representations from the Lancashire County Council by a Deputation of which he was a member, the Vice President last year promised to look into the matter, and, if necessary, to make increased provision. The fears then expressed as to the insufficiency of the grant under the altered Minute of July 3rd, 1901, had been borne out by the facts. In the case of certain evening continuation schools, the balance sheets of which he held, conducted in the rural districts, in connection with the Lonsdale Division of the county, it appeared that, although the grants paid by the Board were the highest that could be earned, £26 3s. 6d., they were 37 percent, less than would have been received under the old scale which would have amounted to £40 12s. In country districts especially, there was great need to encourage local Committees to deal with this matter, but if there was to be a risk of pecuniary loss, the damage to the cause of education would be considerable. Everything possible should be done to develop this important section of educational work. Complaint was often made that the children from the elementary schools passed into the world, and lost the smattering of knowledge they had acquired, and were thereby rendered incapable of availing themselves of the opportunities for better employment which frequently came to them in later life. In consequence, the evening continuation school code had been developed to provide for the teaching of children of older growth and even of adults, and he thought the arrangements for developing that phase of the work should be as generous as possible. The action of the Government in maintaining the severance of this work from the Department of elementary education was not to be commended. In large centres of population the day schoolmasters had frequently been willing to forego the opportunity of relaxation in the evenings in order to take charge of, and by their self-denying effort (which demanded recognition) support these schools, and so attract and keep in touch with the children who had previously come under their care. Such an arangement had been found to be most advantageous, because of the personal knowledge which these masters had of the children who had passed through the day schools. The evening schools ought to be fostered, and the Committee, should see to it that financial consideration did not tend to check the development of the work. In fairness to the Department it should be said that under the increased arrangements for the present year the loss on the grant would not be quite so large, but the amount that could be earned was only £30 10s. 9d. for the same work, and this was quite inadequate, and he hoped the Vice President would carefully consider the matter.

desired to bring before the Committee two matters of economy in staffing. The first was one to which he called attention last year, viz., an item of £800 as salary to a senior examiner who did no examining. This gentleman also received a salary of,£350 a year as Secretary to the Duke of Devonshire, and his whole time was taken up by his secretarial duties. The Votes ought to represent payments for services rendered, and the salaries should correspond to work done. This particular item did not carry out that principle, and therefore he should move to reduce the Vote by £800. The other case was that of a second examiner who drew £150 a year as Private Secretary to the Vice President himself. Did this gentleman do any examining?

No, but both examiners do a very large amount of office work. Both of them had been employed, in the preparation of the Education Bill now before Parliament, very long hours indeed, and far beyond office hours. They do not do any examining at all. They do office work, correspondence, and preparation of Returns. Why they were called examiners he did not know, because they did not examine.

asked if he was to understand that those who were called examiners under secondary education also did no examining.

Yes.

Then they paid these salaries as examiners because they did not examine. He desired that this matter should be made as plain as possible. He felt certain that last year the Vice President of the Council said that this gentleman devoted his whole time to his duties as private secretary to the Lord President, and that was why his salary ought to appear in one sum as a salary and not under the Education Vote. Last year the Vice President of the Council made a most amusing speech in defence of the great amount of work which these examiners had to do, and he thought he was justified in claiming that these salaries ought not to appear on the Education Vote at all. His second point was in regard to the architect employed by the Board of Education. This official received a salary of £850 a year, fees £100, £150 a year as architect to the Scotch Education Office, and £105 and fees under Item A, Class III.. as architect to the reformatories and industrial schools. Was it a fact that this architect was allowed to engage in private practice as well?

That is so.

, said he should also like to know if this architect was allowed to do private consultative work with regard to the plans which had to be approved by the Department afterwards.

I believe that is so.

thought that was a very unsatisfactory system. He thought the architect to the Education Department ought not to engage in private practice to the detriment of other architects. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to assure him that such a state of things would not be allowed to continue, and he begged to move the reduction of this item by £200.

said that these matters had been brought up for several years and had become hardy annuals. With regard to the private secretary to the Lord President his services were absolutely necessary, because it was impossible for the Minister for Education to know all the minute details of the Department, and he must keep an expert to advise him. The gentleman who had been referred to as the secretary to the Duke of Devonshire was his own private secretary at one time, and he proved so useful in that capacity that he had now been made a senior examiner at a salary of £650 a year and not £800. No one who knew the amount of work these two gentlemen did would make such a suggestion as had been made. With regard to one of them, he could assure the House that since the Education Bill first began to be talked about a year ago, this gentleman had done an amount of work far beyond what they would dream of exacting from any public servant. This gentleman had not only been most active in the preparation of the Bill and meeting the various objections which had been raised, but ho had superintended the production of an enormous number of Returns and statistics, maps, diagrams, and various other things to assist the Department and also to supply the First Lord of the Treasury and the Cabinet with information which it was necessary they should have for this extremely complicated Bill. He hoped the hon. Member would not reward the great public services of these two Gentlemen by moving this reduction, for the services of one of them had been recognised by the King. With regard to the architect, he was in existence before he came to the Education Department. He admitted that he did not think the arrangements as regarded this architect were satisfactory, and when there was a vacancy he did not think his successor would be appointed on the same terms. With regard to his services in the Scotch Education Office as architect, he had nothing to do with that, and the services he rendered with reference to the reformatories carne under the control of the Home Office. He could assure the hon. Member that the architect was a gentleman of tin: highest honour, and he had taken care that no plan upon which he had acted privately should be passed by him, for anything in which he had been personally interested was handed over to the other officials. He admitted that the position was not satisfactory, and it would not be repeated in the case of a future holder of the office. He thought it would be a misfortune if any Vote in Committee of Supply were to interefere with their continuing an arrangement which had served the country in a very admirable manner.

said he accepted the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to private secretaries, and he would not press that matter further. The reply with regard to the position of the architect was eminently unsatisfactory. There would be no reform whatever so long as they went on the doctrine because a thing is, therefore it shall be. He did not care how eminent a particular form was. It was a rotten system to allow one office to be responsible for something which had to be passed by an official of that same office. He did not for a moment suggest that this architect would think of passing plans which he himself had prepared, but the system which enabled him to adjudicate on plans which had been prepared by his clerks or assistants was one which should not be permitted to continue.

called attention to an item of £100 in the accounts as "fees for architect." There was no explanation whatever of that sum. As far as one could see it might as well have been £500 or £1,000.

asked the Vice-President of the Council what the Education Department proposed to do in regard to building rules in future. Until recently there was a schedule of rules in the day school code, but that had been abolished, and only a vague article was found in regard to new buildings.

said that new building rules were about to be issued. They were now undergoing revision with the view of making them very much more simple. The last time he inquired he was told that they would be ready in about a fortnight. That was a fortnight ago. He fully expected that they would have been issued by this time.

There is no intention to relax the severity of the rules?

They will be relaxed in this sense that they will be less particular and complicated. They will leave a great deal more to the discretion of the local authority in regard to the buildings.

said there was an amount of not unnatural anxiety in regard to this question. The rules in the past had been one of the reasons for the enormous improvement of school buildings in the country, and any relaxation in regard to vital particulars would be a serious thing. It would not be in order to discuss the Education Bill at present, but perhaps he would be allowed to say that there were to be certain powers given to the new authority under Section 9 in regard to the provision of new schools, and if the building rules were in any way relaxed the working of that Clause would be quite different from what it would be otherwise.

said he understood that men were entered in high position in the service of the Education Department without passing through a civil service examination. In that way serious injustice was done to the ordinary clerks, in as much as it prevented promotion. It was very unjust that these men should be put over their heads in this way. He understood that they passed in without any examination whatever. That was a matter which required to be cleared up. In the Public Accounts Committee he asked an official in regard to the architect. He was told that according to the architect's agreement with the Department he should not be allowed to adjudicate on any plans that he had himself prepared or in regard to which he had given advice. He thought at the time that that was a satisfactory answer, but he understood now that if he did not personally do it some of his subordinates did it.

Somebody has to adjudicate on the plans. I did not know there was an agreement; but I know what the practice is. The practice is that the architect does not adjudicate on any plan in regard to which he has been personally consulted.

said that seemed to be very unsatisfactory. If a man immediately under the control of the architect adjudicated on the plans he really thought there ought to be an alteration.

said the examiners in future would be appointed from the junior inspectors. That was the intention which was in the mind of the Government at present. There was an enormous variety of schools to inspect, and in making new appointments, those best suited for the particular class of schools would be chosen. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that though not appointed by competitive examination, they were men who had taken good degrees at the

reminded the right hon. Gentleman that he had not answered the question about the fees of the architect.

gave an answer which was inaudible in the gallery.

He gets £850 for doing the work, and then he gets £100 besides.

said it was no answer whatever to say that the architect was an honourable gentleman. He ought not to be put in such a position that his private interest and his public duty might conflict with each other. That was a broad principle for which they had been contending on the Opposition side of the House from time to time. There should not be the faintest suspicion attached to those engaged in the public service.

said that on a former occasion on the Diplomatic and Consular Vote he had tried to resume the discussion interrupted on the Foreign Office Vote, and draw attention to the question of the relation which ought to be maintained between the diplomatic and consular service on the one hand, and the commerce of the country on the other. He thought that a comparison between the condition of affairs in this and other countries led one to the conclusion that both in diplomacy and consular action the promotion of commerce took a much more direct and important part in foreign than in our own service. At the same time, he was glad to acknowledge that he had frequently heard diplomatists state that one of the duties of the representatives of this country was to, have regard to its commerce, and to promote good commercial relations between the country which they represented and the countries to which they were accredited. He knew that in many instances our representatives had done their best to promote British commercial progress. From that point of view the consular service was perhaps of even more importance than the diplomatic service; and he could not help saying that in that branch there was a greater disparity between our own and other countries. That might be due to the fact that in foreign countries the consular service was more organised commerically, and was certainly dealt with on a footing which was not general in our own country. For instance, in the case of France, he found that not only was there a course of education in the higher, commercial schools and colleges particularly adapted to the training of consuls, but there was a gradation in the consular ranks, which led to the higher branches of the service. Young men commenced as cadets and ultimately, after a severe course of training, took a high position in the consular service. Therefore, it was eminently desirable that our consuls, though they had other duties to perform—and that, after all, reduced itself to a question of salary—ought to be the out-posts of British commerce, and the Intelligence Department available for the help of our commercial people. Now, the system of the appointment to the consular service was very different in this country from that which obtained in any other country. It was mainly a system of patronage, which was difficult to defend. Of course it was impossible to imagine that that system could be abused by such statesmen as Lord Salisbury or Lord Rosebery; but the expression made use of on the occasion of the last debate by the noble lord the Under Secretary with reference to the reward of men who had served the country in distant parts of the world showed that it was a system which was advisedly not only adhered to, but put in practice in certain cases. The noble Lord said they had to provide for those who had done service to the State in such undeveloped countries as Africa. It was perfectly true that such parsons were entitled to recognition, but he did not think the reward of gentlemen of that class was, as a rule, properly carried out when they were put into consular posts. It must end in a large measure in putting square men in round holes, and although their service was ripe for reward he did not think the reward should take the form of positions for which these gentlemen were not trained. He admitted that there had been considerable improvement in our diplomatic consular service, and that the increase in the number of commercial attachés was beneficial, although there was room for more, and there were one or two places where at present there were no attachés, but where their presence was desirable. Though that was so, he believed the attaches who had been appointed had rendered real service. Consular agents also had recently been appointed, and their visits here to a number of Chambers of Commerce to confer with those directly interested in commerce was a desirable step, and he desired to acknowledge it. He thought there was some need for a larger representation of our commerce in the colonies, and appointments made in that direction in some of the larger colonies would be most desirable. Recognition was also due to the Foreign Office for the improvements made in the regulations relating to consular duties; nevertheless, he thought there was room now for greater expansion in that direction. Having regard to the steps which had been taken by foreign countries to make their consular service as useful as possible to the commerce of their countries, we certainly ought, at all events, to watch, if we were not able to follow in their footsteps, although we could follow to a considerable extent. The action of the Foreign Office and the Colonial Office in securing recognition for colonial demands was a great step in the right direction. Having made those acknowledgments, there were one or two points on which he desired to make some observations of a somewhat different character. Complaint had been made that consuls were not sufficiently familiar as a rule with the language of the countries in which they represented us. He was informed that in Russia there were not more than six who wore able to converse in the language of that country. In other years it was not so important to know Russian, a knowledge of French and German being quite sufficient for consuls in that country, but owing to the development of the interior it had become absolutely necessary to be able to converse in the Russian language. Exception had also been taken to the large number of foreigners who represented this country in consular offices. That was a matter it was not, perhaps, always possible to avoid; there were exceptional cases in which persons of influence among men of business abroad might make the best representatives. But as a general rule our own countrymen were the best representatives of our own country. There were a considerable number of foreigners representing us in Switzerland, for instance. Of course it might be a question of salary, and after looking through the list some of the salaries did appear to him to be most inadequate. Then with regard to the consular reports. Some were most excellent, as witness the report of the Consul at Stettin, which was only a sample of many others which might be cited, but one bad only to read some of the more meagre to see how inadequate they were. If comparison were made between the speed of publication of our consular reports and those of other countries, especially the United States, the comparison would not be to our advantage, and in these days, when time was money and despatch meant business, publication almost contemporaneous with the course of events was necessary to give the reports any value at all. One point in which we were excelled by the United States was in the publication of special reports in connection with sudden developments of new or special branches of industry. On such occasions it was impossible to wait for the annual report, and it was then important that we should have special reports; and in comparison with those of the United States, the special reports of this country were very few. He had given, he thought, reasonable and proper praise for the work which had been effected, but on the other hand he would suggest that there was still room for improvement, and he hoped the noble Lord would reconsider the propriety of placing gentlemen who had done admirable service in savage and undeveloped countries in the position of consular agents, where they had to deal with cute business men. He hoped some other mode would be adopted of rewarding them. The reforms to be carried out by the Foreign Office might not be such as he had ventured to suggest in detail, but reform was certainly required, and he thought that nothing would be effected until there was a great reorganisation in the Departments dealing with the consular work. He heard demands made for a Minister of Commerce. He himself was content to accept the President of the Board of Trade as the Minister of Commerce; but trade matters, he thought, ought to be dealt with by one Minister, who should be responsible to Parliament. At present, there seemed to be a great want of organisation in dealing with these matters; the Board of Trade represented trade interests in general; the Foreign Office managed foreign affairs and the consular service; and in addition there was the representation of the Colonies, and India, and the like. Let him take an illustration. He was a member of the Commercial Intelligence Department of the Board of Trade, and the work of that Department had been done as well as the resources would permit. Steps had been taken to ascertain the state of trade in Persia, Siberia, and other places, but to show the bodies with which they had to deal it was only necessary to look at the constitution of that Department. It was a Department of the Board of Trade, and in it there were representatives of the Foreign Office, commercial side; of the India Office, of the Board of Trade itself, of the Colonial Office, and others. They did excellent work, but he felt that that organisation was not a proper one when there were so many different Departments to consult and take into account. He thought the responsibility and management of commercial matters should be placed in the hands of one Department, and the head of that Department should be the Minister of Commerce in this country. He wished to say one word on the subject introduced by his right hon. friend in the most able speech which he had delivered in relation to the Diplomatic Vote. When it was sought to discuss commercial matters on that Vote, the Chairman ruled that it was out of order to do so, but he thought he was in order in saying that he could express the fullest concurrence of the commercial community in what was then said, that the difficulties which arose between us and other countries should be disposed of before they became the source of acute difficulty to this country. He referred particularly to the desirability of finding an amicable solution of the New found land difficulty with France. Public opinion in France was directed to the same end, and our interest pointed in the direction of establishing the best relations with France and Russia. Consular representation should be made as commercial as possible, and we should be then placed in more close relations with those actually engaged in commerce. That consultation of those directly interested in the trade and commerce of the country would be useful to diplomacy was shown by the fact that the opinion of the Chambers of Commerce was adverse to the taking of Wei-Hai-Wei, and favourable as an alternative to the choice of Chusan or some position nearer to the Yang-tsze than Wei-Hai-Wei. He impressed upon the Foreign Office the fact that they had in their care commercial duties of the highest character, and he hoped the matters to which he had drawn attention would receive the consideration of the noble Lord.

, speaking as a Member who took great interest in this matter, and who took care that consular reports were distributed amongst those most likely to read them, thought he might be permitted to say a few words upon this Vote. He was not in entire agreement with all his hon. friend had said, and he desired to point out the difficulty in which the Foreign Office was placed in collecting that information which was valuable to the manufacturers of this country. It was not so essential for the consular agents to send over the number of ships carrying merchandise as to send over a classification of the goods used. The method in which the information was supplied could, he thought, be improved. In the first place, any information with regard to railway and other charges on the Continent might be supplied in such a form that it could be most useful, and the amounts might be given in English money, and if in other matters the English equivalent for foreign weights and measures was given, the information would be much more useful and the Returns of much more value. This should be no trouble to our consular agents.

sympathised with the references made to the Consular service, and thought there could be no doubt but that the Foreign Office had looked with disfavour on researches of a consular character. The consul abroad was originally senior British merchant in the place of his appointment. For years past he had been something very different—a retired officer, who perhaps might be a most deserving person, but who was often not thoroughly competent to deal with commercial interests. An overhauling of the consular service was required, but he thought it must still remain under the Foreign Office. But the Foreign Office should realise that it was the Foreign Office of a commercial country. As to the consular reports themselves, the Committee could scarcely realise the incapacity shown by the Foreign Office in elementary matters of business. He complained that the consular reports often did not show clearly from whom they came and the year to which they referred. For example, a report in his hand purporting to deal with the trade of Lorenzo Marques for 1900 contained accounts for 1899, 1900, and 1901. It was the report of a consul-general—where, he was not told. The expression "this year's census" occurred in the report, but what year was meant he did not know. It was painful to find the Foreign Office betraying such a want of knowledge of commercial affairs, and he hoped the Department would realise the importance of attaching to consular statements the date when written, and the writer's name. As to ambassadors, the rules for their election appeared to be very vague, and the Committee had little opportunity of gathering any account of their demeanour, or of estimating the amount of success due to their personal influence and tact. Ambassadors had one advantage over Ministers, viz., that they were compulsorily retired at the age of seventy. He would commend that rule to the right hon. Gentleman who was now forming an Administration, because it might very well be applied to other Departments. If an ambassador was too old properly to discharge his duties at seventy, a Lord Chancellor was not too young to retire at seventy-six. On the general duties of ambassadors, he was by no means satisfied with the ambassadorial work of recent years. Its effect had been the alienation of Persia and Turkey; Persia had been thrown into the arms of Russia without any agreement having been come to, and there was the undoubted fact, referred to by the right hon. Baronet on a previous occasion, of a considerable change in the attitude of Italy towards this country. He was sorry to say that he believed that change of attitude was entirely due to our Ambassador at Rome. Lord Currie had been pushed on with great assiduity in the diplomatic service, but the rapidity of his promotion was not warranted by his diplomatic achievements. Certainly in Constantinople Lord Currie managed to make himself extremely disagreeable to the Powers, and in consequence England lost advantages she might otherwise have gained, and things contrary to her interest, which might have been prevented, had been carried into effect. On the whole Lord Currie could not be considered to have been a decided success at Constantinople. He went to that post in 1894, in 1898 he was translated to Rome, where his career had not been attended with any greater success. He believed he was right in saying—but on this point the Under Secretary of State would correct him if he was wrong — that so disagreeable had been the demeanour of this Ambassador at the Court of Italy that positively a request had been addressed to the Foreign Office for his recall. If that was the case, and he was informed on excellent authority that it was so, a great responsibility rested upon the Foreign Office for keeping him there. But whether that were true or not, the mission of Lord Currie to Rome had not been the brilliant success that might have been expected from the rapid promotion of which he had been the subject, and he believed he was justified in saying that the change in the attitude of Italy was very largely due to the non-success of his diplomatic efforts. He was perfectly aware that there might have been great difficulties and extenuating circumstances, and to ensure an answer on this matter he moved to reduce the Vote by £1,000.

asked for information as to the present condition of matters relating to the British Consulate at Odessa. A complaint had been made of the removal of the Consulate from the commercial part of the city to the vicinity of the tennis grounds. It was alleged by those who knew that too many of our consuls abroad neglected their proper duties for other considerations, and the removal of the Consulate from the commercial quarter of Odessa was merely typical of a general defect in the consular system. In this particular instance it caused a great deal of inconvenience, additional expense, and loss of time to British shipmasters. Upon making representations to the Foreign Office he received a letter promising something in the nature of redress, and he desired to know whether that promise had been carried out. He agreed to a large extent with the remarks of the hon. Member for King's Lynn on the question of the consular service generally. Great improvements were necessary, not only in regard to the number of consular officers, but also as to their location, authority and nationality. We employed nearly 1,000 consular servants who were not of British nationality at all, and these persons came into contact with official secrets, and with matters referring to British Imperial interests in what seemed to him to be a very loose and unsafe way. He did not suggest that it was impossible for a foreigner to be a faithful servant of the British Crown, but he did suggest that when British born subjects were scattered all over the world, it would be worth the while of the Foreign Office to take some pains to secure as consular agents in remote places British born persons, instead of appointing men of foreign extraction The present State of affairs was very much the result of the desire of the Foreign Office to run the service on the cheapest possible basis. By the employment of unpaid consular agents the service worked out at a cost of about £19 per man per year, whereas in the Diplomatic Service the cost per man per year was something like £1,700. He thought it might be well to spend a little less than £1,700 per man on the Diplomatic Service, and a little more than £19 per man on the Consular Service, which was naturally more extensive, had representatives in many more places, and had to do with very important British interests— particularly those relating to British trade, it was a mistake of organisation that the Consular Service should be under the Foreign Office at all. So long as British consuls were expected to deal with matters of trade, he thought that, where-ever possible, men acquainted with commerce, and formerly engaged in trade, should be appointed. Since, however, they had also to do with diplomatic work, he thought they might, perhaps, criticise the way in which the Foreign Office had of recent years withdrawn some of the consular officers from quarters in which eyes and ears for this country were particularly necessary, as, for example, had been done in Asia Minor and Morocco. Whether the Committee considered the location of the consular agents, or their nationality, or the way in which, in order to save expense, unpaid agents were employed, and it was rendered impossible for the Foreign Office properly to check their work, at every point it would be found that the Consular Service required revision, amendment, and improvement, and he would be heartily glad to learn that something in that direction was being done. He was glad to learn that on two points, at any rate, improvement had been effected—viz. in the appointment of commercial agents at Zurich, and in the abandonment of fees to British subjects who sought trade advice.

agreed with what had been said as to the importance of our consuls knowing the language of the country to which they were appointed. The reputation gained by Sir William White in the early days of his career was largely due to his mastery of the vernaculars in different parts of the south-east of Europe, because, from a diplomatic point of view, he obtained a great deal of useful information. But the duties of the, consuls who had been spoken of were, of a very different character. With regard to Odessa he noticed that the salary was a large one, the amount being £900 a year, with an allowance of £450 for office expenses, and there was also a vice-consul at £300. To carry out what the hon. Member for South Islington had suggested, would require a special Russian Consular Service, on the footing of the China, Japan, and Siam services. He had several times tried to master the Russian language, and though he had succeeded in many other languages he had not succeeded with Russian. He was sure that the time required to acquire the Russian language would necessitate special training. There were both redundances and deficiencies in the Foreign Office Vote. The absence of a British representative at Bolivia had already been referred to. If we needed a representative there in the '40's, surely there was more need for one now than sixty years ago, with all our great increase in trade. He was in the capital of Bolivia last August, and he knew that this country had a very considerable trade there in minerals and rubber. The rubber grown there was said to be quite equal to that grown near the mouth of the Amazon. He noticed that nearly £2,000 was spent at Munich, and he did not think it would be too much to spend £500 or £600 at Bolivia, where there were already about 200 Englishmen. In the case of a firm in Bolivia composed of an Englishman and a German, their dispute had to be settled by the German representatives, because there was no British Consul there. That state of things involved a loss of prestige to Britishers there. Before leaving South America, he wished to impress upon his noble friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, the necessity of watching very carefully the way in which the authorities of the Argentine Republic followed up what seemed to be an exceedingly brutal murder which occurred, not in a very remote part of the Argentine, but in a fairly central region. A young Englishman was charged upon some frivolous pretext, and was wounded with a pistol by a police officer, and the wound proved to be a mortal one. The Argentine Republic was a set of States in which the Federal principle was highly developed, and the provincial governments had a very free hand and did not always treat matters in a European manner. He wished to have the views of His Majesty's Government pressed upon the central government. The hon. Member for King's Lynn seemed to have been very unfortunate in regard to these consular reports, for a great many of them appeared to him to be exceedingly useful. Those reports went to show that English merchants did not get foreign markets because they did not publish their catalogues in the vernacular, and would not get the weights and measures and prices of foreign countries. Again, no steps were taken to produce the article required, and our merchants continued to send out the same article time after time. Whether anybody except theoretical people read these reports he did not know, but as soon as a merchant heard of anything good, he did not wait for the report of the Foreign Office. With regards to this country being represented abroad by foreigners, Lord Curzon, when he represented the Foreign Office in this House, said that that was practically the universal custom. He thought the hardship alleged would have to be much more strongly made out before any such drastic steps as those suggested could be taken.

said that he understood that sometimes a subordinate member of the consular staff was a foreigner, but he thought the idea of the Foreign Office was, that so far as they could do it, they got men of British nationality in the consular service. There was a case in Berlin some time ago, where this country appointed the banker of Prince Bismarck, and it struck him at that time that a man more unfit to represent British interests in Germany could not be found than Prince Bismarck's banker. His hon. friend said they had no consuls in Morocco and Asia Minor. Our consuls there used to be military consuls, not intended to look after commercial interests, but to watch and guard us against Russian aggression. There was no good object served by having a commercial consul in places where they had no trade, or only a very small amount, as was the case with Morocco and Asia Minor. He was very glad that his hon. friend opposite had raised this question, because it was a most important one. He was what was called a little Englander. He was opposed to the wild and reckless militarism which, at present, was in favour with hon. Gentlemen opposite, and with some on this side of the House. He was a strong advocate of large expenditure being undertaken by the Government for the spreading and looking after of our commerce, but he did not think, considering what we spent on our Army and Navy, we spent a sufficient amount on our consular service. The primary mistake in connection with the consular service, was that it was not made a profession. What happened was that Ministers — he was not speaking particularly of Ministers at present on the Treasury Bench—who did not know what to do with a tenth cousin, or hanger-on, tried to get him appointed as a consul. That person was a decent, respectable man; he did not offend or lower the dignity of the British Empire, but, unfortunately, he knew nothing about commerce. The hon. Member had come across consuls who were charming men; he knew nothing personally against them, but certainly no country would think of having these men as commercial agents. They could not write reports, but they went to some merchant, perhaps their tailor or somebody, and asked him to write a report. They signed it, and sent it home. These reports were, in many cases, not worth the paper they were written on. Some of the reports were very good, but many of them were very poor. Those men had no commercial education. The Foreign Office must recognise that this must be made a profession. They must take young men who had passed an examination, and put them as pupils in divers Consulates, giving them a small salary. Then, according to their fitness for the work they could be promoted to be vice-consuls, consuls, and consuls-general with larger salaries. Our consular service in the matter of commercial intelligence was below that of France. He could not agree with his hon. friend opposite that the consular service should be put under the Board of Trade, and separated from the Foreign Office. The negotiations with foreign countries would not be put in the hands of the Board of Trade; they would be carried on by the Foreign Office. But they might attach more importance to the commercial department of the Foreign Office. They ought to have a very good man at the head of it, and he should look well after the consuls and the staff, and there should not be this tenth-cousin system of appointment. The reports received from the consuls should be sent to the Board of Trade, and if necessary communicated by the Foreign Office to the great towns and the commercial agencies in the United Kingdom. Then, he thought, we should have a much better service than at the present time. The hon. Member for King's Lynn complained of the policy of His Majesty's Government in Italy, and stated that it had led to the friendly feeling which used to exist between the two countries being considerably weakened. In that he entirely agreed with his hon. friend, but he went on to say that Lord Currie was absolutely responsible for this.

Not wholly.

Well, that Lord Currie was in part responsible. Lord Currie had to obey orders in Italy. His hon. friend said that the Italian Government had made application that His Majesty's Government should withdraw Lord Currie. He was very curious to hear whether that was a fact.

No.

The noble Lord said it was not a fact. If Lord Currie, or any other person, made himself politically or socially disagreeable to the Government in the place where he resided, and that Government asked that the gentleman should be changed, he could perfectly understand that it would be wise on the part of His Majesty's Government to listen to that demand, and to put him in some other place. But he gathered that that was not the case in Rome. He thought it was hardly fair that his hon. friend should make the general railing accusation he had made against Lord Currie without giving the Committee chapter and verse. His hon. friend had said that Lord Currie's promotion was exceedingly quick. He had been in the Foreign Office for the last forty years, and rose gradually until he became Assistant Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. He had been sufficiently long in what might be called the diplomatic service to entitle him to become an ambassador. The late Lord Pauncefote was very much in the same position as Lord Currie, and he made an excellent ambassador, who rendered valuable service to the country. He did not think it was fair of his hon. friend to suggest that Lord Currie had been pitch-forked into the position of ambassador in order to throw upon him the blame for what possibly the Foreign Office was responsible, unless he could show, chapter and verse, that he had bungled his instructions, or done something personally to produce ill-feeling between Italy and England, irrespective of the policy which was pursued by the Foreign Office.

said his remarks had been based on information given to him, from a source which he could scarcely have doubted, that the Court of Rome had absolutely requested the Foreign Office in London to recall Lord Currie; but if the noble Lord denied that, of course a large part of his argument fell to the ground.

asked whether, in view of the increasing importance of Vladivostok, the Foreign Office would not follow the example already set by Germany, and appoint a consul for that district.

said they were quite alive to the importance of representation at Vladivostok. Germany had nothing quite so important as a consular agent there; they had, however, a commercial agent, which was, perhaps, a humbler form of the same article. No doubt it would be very much to the advantage of this country if we had a similar representative, and the matter was under consideration. The greater part of the debate had turned on the consular service, but some reference to the diplomatic service had been interposed. His hon. friend the Member for King's Lynn, with the passion for condemnation that always pursued him, had condemned the whole diplomatic service of the Empire as inefficient.

No.

said the ambassadors only shared the condemnation with the Government. He did not believe he had ever heard a single word of approval, either of his political friends, or of the public servants, from his hon. friend. He certainly should not subscribe to his condemnation of our ambassadors. He thought his hon. friend was very properly answered by the hon. Member for Northampton. In attacking Lord Currie, he took no account of the policy that ambassadors had to pursue. It did not follow because an ambassador had not always been on good terms with the Court to which he was accredited that, therefore, it was the fault of the ambassador. An ambassador was a confidential person who carried out the instructions he received, and, if that occasionally brought him into conflict with the Court to which he was accredited, it only meant that he was a faithful servant in the discharge of his country's interests. For his part he had never heard that there was any unpopularity attaching to our ambassadors at St. Petersburg, Paris, or Berlin. What, then, became of his hon. friend's general condemnation?

said he did not say a word about the ambassadors at St. Petersburg or Berlin. The only general reference he had made was as to the unfortunate result of recent Foreign Office policy in Turkey, Persia, Spain, and France.

said, on the contrary, his hon. friend attributed unfortunate results to the incapacity of the British representatives.

No.

said he need only appeal to the record which must inevitably appear to prove that that was the case. The hon. Gentleman was quite entitled to attack the Government; he always did. But he left it to the Committee to say whether he was not wrong in first attacking the diplomatic representatives of this country throughout the world, and then attempting to explain it away by saying that what he really condemned was the policy of the Government. He did not share the hon. Member's views. Our ambassadors were placed in an especially difficult position, because this, being a world-wide Empire, we were brought into conflict, to some extent, with the interests of nearly every country in the world. He did not mean to say that they were uniformly in conflict, but there were points and elements about the policy of this country which were in conflict with the interests of nearly every foreign country. Our interests, therefore, must be represented by our diplomatic representatives, and it was not surprising that on occasions they were not absolutely upon as good terms as he believed generally characterised their position. In regard to other countries, one of the difficulties which our policy had to encounter was that we were essentially non-aggressive in our policy; and the barbarous, or he meant rather the less civilised, countries were naturally enough strongly impressed with the influence and importance of Great Britain in the councils of the world. Notwithstanding the fact that our policy was non-aggressive and all for the maintenance of the status quo, we were able to exercise a great influence on the less civilised parts of the world. Reference had been made by his hon. friend to Lord Currie. This ambassador had been a very distinguished public servant for many years. He served his time in the Foreign Office, and rose to be the Principal Permanent Undersecretary of the Foreign Office. In that capacity Lord Currie had earned the greatest credit to himself, and had conducted the affairs of the Foreign Office in a way which was beyond reproach. After this he was promoted to be an ambassador. As had already been pointed out, exactly the same course had been pursued in the case of Lord Pauncefote; and now the hon. Member attacked Lord Currie as an ambassador. What had been his recent history? He ventured to say there was no country in Europe with whom we had worked on such cordial terms as Italy at this moment. Not only in Europe, but in Africa, many questions of great difficulty and delicacy arose between the British and the Italian Governments along the north-east coast of Africa. We had worked hand in hand in Somaliland. All the difficulties there of late which had been considerable, had been conducted without any friction whatever between ourselves and the Italian Government. The same thing could be said of the Sudan frontier; and he had occasion a few days ago to explain to the Committee that the recent difficulties with regard to Malta and Tripoli had been admirably solved. Were we to deprive our ambassadors abroad of the credit of this state of things? Was it fair of his hon. friend to gibbet Lord Currie as an incompetent ambassador when he had to his credit the solution of these several questions, and the smooth working of the international relations between this country and Italy? It was not fair; and the hon. Member ought to give Lord Currie the credit, which was his due, of having conducted to a successful conclusion these difficult matters which he had mentioned. As far as he was able to judge, our representatives in the diplomatic service were at least as good as those of any other country in the world, and we had no cause to be ashamed of them. They were quite ready in diplomacy to take account of commercial interests. The Foreign Office was in constant communication, for example, in regard to Chinese questions, with the commercial interests of this country. Perpetual communications were passing between ourselves and the China merchants in London, and those interested in the China trade and the Chinese question. Although he fully recognised that in modern times the consular service required to take special account of commercial considerations, he could not honestly say that there was an enthusiastic opinion on the subject among the best trading interests in this country. If the leading traders and manufacturers were asked whether they required assistance from our Consular agents, they almost invariably said "No; we mind our own business; we understand it twenty times better than your consuls; we have our own representatives, and this is part of the enterprise in which we are engaged." Though he recognised that they must do all they could in respect of the consular service, a word of caution was not out of place in pointing out that this was not the view of a part of the best trading interests of this country. He regretted that the hon. Member opposite had not given him notice as to the subject of Odessa, but he would make inquiries on the subject of the Consulate. With regard to Bolivia he could not subscribe to the statement that our trade with that country was a large one. There was, however, a great deal to be said for the necessity of commercial representation. As to the promotion of Protectorate officials, he was afraid that something he said the other day had been misunderstood. He did not mean for a moment to say that our consular service ought to be entirely recruited from the administrators in our East Africa Protectorate. Not at all; but he repeated that it was not unfair that the administrators, who were able men, should look to some kind of reward where opportunity offered, consistently with the public service, in being removed, if they had done yeoman's work in those protectorates, to conditions more comfortable and constituting some kind of reward for their years of toil. They always gave a preference to British subjects in the appointment of consular officers, but the services of many foreign officials of the British Government were of the greatest value, and the sweeping condemnation which had been passed on them was quite undeserved. He cited the case of a Swiss gentleman in the British service, a man of distinction, who from his commercial knowledge and literary accomplishments had been of considerable service in acquainting us with the opportunities for British trade in Switzerland. When persons spoke of the defects of the consular service, the real difficulty was money. If they could persuade the Treasury to give unlimited funds the Foreign Office could have the best Englishmen that this country produced in order to represent it in the service, but they had not succeeded in persuading the Treasury to go to that length. They had the greatest difficulty in persuading the Treasury to increase by a single sovereign the amount which was devoted by this country to the consular service. He spoke as the representative of the Foreign Office, but he recognised the difficulty which the Treasury was placed in. It had to meet enormous calls in every service, and unless the. House of Commons could persuade the Treasury to increase the sums of money at the disposal of the Department they could not increase beyond a certain point the status of their representatives all over the world.

I suggested rearrangement and distribution of the money already in hand.

said it was not an unfair suggestion, and he would give the subject his consideration. But had the Department done nothing? They had appointed a Departmental Committee to overhaul the whole conditions of entrance and qualifications for the consular service. It would be obviously premature and absurd on his part to discuss the subject while the Committee was inquiring into it, but he thought that commercial considerations ought to be taken more into account in the appointments made. He also thought that something might be done to give consuls a certain amount of commercial training, perhaps even after their appointment. The question was worthy of consideration, at any rate. Then as to their reports. They varied; some were better than others; but he did not think the universal condemnation of the reports was quite fair. The hon. Member for King's Lynn condemned one report.

said he condemned no report at all; what he complained of was that the reports mentioned neither the date nor the place at which they were written.

said that in the particular case mentioned by the hon. Member it was stated that the report was for the year 1901, and was written by His Majesty's Consul-General; and statistics were given on such subjects as railway traffic and Custom-house returns for a series of years up to 1901. Why did the hon. Member always condemn without consideration?

What is the date of the report?