protested against the attitude taken by the Secretary for Scotland in reference to the distress in the congested areas of the Highlands. The right hon. Gentleman would not take the trouble to inquire personally, but he accepted information from the landlords, who were the prime offenders. Though Parliament had provided the power and means to assist, nothing was being done to alleviate distress, which was especially acute in the Island of Lewis. There were 30,000 in that Island most of whom lived under deplorable conditions. They would probably be told that much had been done in other parts of the country, but the secret of that was that in these places the people, by defying the law, had forced the authorities to take action. All that had been done in the Island of Lewis was to secure a few acres for fishermen's dwellings. He would like the Lord Advocate himself to visit the place, and he would see that it was one of the worst off in the United Kingdom. Further, he had to complain that nothing had been done to remove the silt in Ness Harbour, and as a protest against the inaction of the Secretary for Scotland, in this and other matters connected with the congested areas, he moved the reduction of the Vote by £100.

said he desired to call attention to the case of David Thomas, who was extradited from America on a charge of embezzling £1,500 belonging to a Cupar building society, and in respect of whose extradition the local magistrates had been mulcted in a portion of the costs. The local magistrates entered into the bond antecedent to the extradition proceedings being instituted in the belief, based on a statement of the Fiscal of the county, that it would not be enforced; but, on the conviction of the accused, they were charged with a part of the expenses of bringing him from America. What would have been their position had they refused to sign the bond? It was a case in which many local people were interested, and it would have been said that they were failing to assist in the proper administration of justice. In fact, they had no alternative but to sign the bond. As it was a Crown prosecution, it was felt that the local magistrates ought not to bear any part of the expense connected with the proper administration of justice, and the Lord Advocate would give general satisfaction in the locality if he could see his way to remit the charge.

, in reply to the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, said he had really nothing to add to the statements he had made in Committee of Supply. His difficulty was that he was met with what he would call the vague declamation of the hon. Member against what he had characterised as the lethargy and want of movement on the part of the Secretary for Scotland. Nothing that he could say would probably have any effect on the hon. Member, and he could only comfort himself with the reflection that his general declamation was not confined to the Scotch Office. As he sat in the House, he had the opportunity of hearing the hon. Member urge very much the same class of complaint against the War Office, and even against the Foreign Office, now that he had extended his operations and had surveyed the world as far as India and Japan. The policy of his noble friend was put perfectly clearly in the report of the Congested Districts Board, which was adequately discussed when the Vote was before the Committee. That policy was to help those who helped themselves. The removal of the silt was still under consideration. Although the number of persons who offered to do the work was large, the amount of sand that could be moved in a day was limited, and it became obvious that the offer was not one that could be accepted, because it was no use attempting to cope with the silt unless it could be dealt with once and for all. The question was really an engineering one, as to which the Congested Districts Board must obviously be guided by professional advice. They were taking advice and considering the question, and it was not on account of any dilatoriness on their part that this delay had occurred. The same might be said about roads. The hon. Member opposite had said that the people in the district ought to know where roads were wanted, but anybody who had any experience of what the local recommendations came to knew that it was very unsafe to take the local view as against the expert view as to the line a road should take. This, again, was a question for an expert, by whose advice the Department should be guided. With reference to the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, that required some explanation. In the first place, he could not accept the hon. Member's view that the borough authorities did not expect that the bond would be enforced, for this reason—that if the Fiscal made such a statement, he had no right under the rules, which were very clearly laid down with regard to these matters, to give any such assurance. It had come to be believed that for the prevention of crime Scotland depended on the Government; as a fact, this was not so. It was the business of each locality to prevent crime in its own area, and any step taken by the Government was taken by means of a subvention. If that were not so, there would not be equality of treatment between the two kingdoms. It was the custom in England not to go into the question of extradition in regard to such crimes as forgery or embezzlement unless a bond for the expenses of getting back the alleged criminal was granted by the person who was prosecuting. In the same way in Scotland it had never been the habit for the Grown Office to ask for extradition unless they got a bond or guarantee from any one who wished a person put upon his trial. He supposed in the present case that feeling was so strong in the locality that the local authority came forward in the interests of the community, and gave the bond. It would have been against all ordinary

asked whether any definite step had been taken with regard to the appointment of a Court of Inquiry, for the purpose of inquiring into the allowances made to the Board of Manufactures with a view to exercising a more efficient control in regard to the National Gallery in Scotland. He understood that an arrangement took place the other day in regard to this matter.

said every step had been taken that could be taken with regard to this Court of Inquiry up to the present time. The right hon. Gentleman opposite had been asked to furnish names, which had not yet been done, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer hoped to be in a position shortly to announce the names of the Departmental Committee which was to inquire into the question of the control of the National Gallery in Scotland.

expressed his satisfaction at the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. This matter excited a great deal of feeling in Scotland, and he hoped that as soon after the Recess as possible, the Committee would get to work, and report to the House the result of their labours at the earliest possible moment.

said it was intended that the sittings of the Committee should take place during the Recess; therefore, he hoped to have their Report when the House re-assembled.

pointed out that whilst under the English Education Act of 1870, schools in England were limited to elementary instruction, under the Scottish Act of 1872, schools in Scotland combined elementary and secondary instruction. Under the old parochial system, which existed until the Act of 1872, Scotland stood at the head of almost every country in the world as regarded educational establishment, but she was not at the head now; she was not so far advanced considering the advantages she possessed over other countries in 1872. The advantage they possessed prior to 1872 was that the education given under the old parochial system was a sufficient preparation for the University. It was the teachers who gave the impetus to the boy to go to the University, and every teacher was qualified to prepare a boy to go there. The schools of Scotland were of a higher character, and had a better class of teachers than the English schools, higher paid and better qualified. For that reason education was more expensive in Scotland, but the benefits of this, he contended, were felt throughout the Empire. It should be remembered that while the ratepayers of Scotland were at all this expense, the benefit was of an Imperial character. The Prime Minister, Lord Rosebery, and the Leader of the Opposition were all Scotsmen, and men of the same nationality would be found in every part of the Empire. This was a point which should be borne in mind when any additional grant was given to Scotland out of the Imperial purse. That certain sacrifices were made by the people themselves was shown by the fact that the compulsory school age in Scotland was fourteen years, as against thirteen in England. Then with regard to the changes which had been made in the mode of examination since 1872. The principle of the Act of 1872 was that every child should be educated to the extent of its abilities, and grants were given according to the individual results. That was an important method, because by it the children of the poorest parents were given as much attention as others. But pressure was brought to bear with a view to having a general examination of the schools. That was an unfortunate change, because under such a system the poorer children sank to the bottom, and it was impossible to tell how they were being educated. The teachers were the main factors in bringing about the change. When the grants were based on individual examination, each child had to be brought up to the required standard, but under the new method it was sufficient to have two or three clever boys at the head of the class, and the teachers were afforded an enormous relief. The change was also a great relief to the inspectors, because instead of having to examine and pass a judgment upon each individual child they had simply to pass a class on a state of general proficiency being shown. The School Boards also were in favour of the change, because it insured them a better grant and gave them less trouble. The poor parents were the losers by the change. Ignorance would never be eradicated until the State took care that each child, even when it belonged to a poor family, was properly educated. Under the old system, the progress of education could be estimated, and it was possible to tell how many children were passing into the higher standards. That was not now the case. Inspectors got on better with the local authorities and the teachers' associations by reporting everything as satisfactory, and so a mere general opinion as to the state of the school was given, but there were no statistics as to the individual children. The Education Department should at least insist on the old standards being revived, not for the purposes of the grant, but so that year by year comparisons could be made, and they might see exactly how matters stood. Previously a parent knew each year whether his child was making progress, and if the result was unsatisfactory the reason could be ascertained. Now, however, the child was not examined until the end of his school course, and it was then too late to go back if the result was unsatisfactory. There was too much laxity with regard to the examinations, and the Scottish Education Department ought to give the matter serious attention. With regard to secondary education, the policy of the Department had been to kill the secondary and private schools. They began by a system of payments for specific subjects with high - sounding names, such as "English Literature" which consisted of so many lines of poetry repeated from memory, but which were secondary only in name. As a result of that policy, in places like Glasgow the board schools competed with the secondary and private schools, and as the fees in the former amounted to only about £2 as against £12 in the latter, the children were all drawn to the board schools, and the secondary schools that were not killed were crippled. That policy had now been practically reversed, and the endeavour was being made to raise up secondary schools, and to kill the secondary education in the elementary schools. One great advantage of a State-aided school was that if they had secondary education at the top, elementary educacation in that school would be better, they would get a better class of pupils, and the whole tone of the school would be raised. Some people thought secondary education ought to be kept by itself and attached to the Universities. He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities would agree with him that the people of Scotland were not so much enamoured with professors as to be willing to place education in Scotland under their charge, for he did not believe that the people of Scotland would ever tolerate education being worked from a University centre. This would be a fatal policy, and contrary to the traditions of Scotland. A boy should be kept under the influence of the same teacher as long as possible, and induced to go on step by step to the highest point that could possibly be reached. But if they had secondary education in every elementary school, he quite granted that they must have secondary schools as well. They should never lose sight of the fact that throughout Scotland many of the parishes were so sparsely populated that they must have the local school within reach of every child, and capable of teaching up to the highest point of going to the University. They should look at this question from the point of view of what had been the custom and habit of Scotland. It had been said that the effect of the old parochial system was that they encouraged only the clever boys, and did nothing for the others. In the old days the teacher had to attend to the very poorest as well as the wealthiest, and at that time compulsory education did not exist. He would not go into other matters because he wished to deal only with questions which were practically more imminent. He wished particularly to emphasise the fact that any money earned in this matter in Scotland, owing to the different circumstances, was earned at a great cost to the ratepayers. They ought to look at education in Scotland as a whole, and not merely the benefit conferred upon any district, because a boy afterwards went out into the world and the education he received was of benefit to the nation at large. They did not ask for any special treatment for Scotland, but simply for the proper recognition of work done for the benefit of the State as a whole. He hoped the Lord Advocate would be able to assure them that steps were being taken to ensure that whatever England got under the present arrangement, Scotland would receive similar treatment by the Exchequer.

called the attention of the Lord Advocate to the question of the sanitary inspection of schools in Scotland. He did so because of the delay which had occurred in dealing with Scotch educational matters. He was encouraged to raise this matter because a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the physical training of children in Scotland. Nothing was more important than to see that ventilation and other sanitary requirements were properly attended to in the schools. His experience of country districts was that the ventilation of public schools left almost everything to be desired. He knew of no more unhealthy atmosphere than the class-rooms of many country schools on wet winter days when crowded with children and when the heating as well as the ventilating apparatus was out of order. He felt sure that this cause was the source of widespread disease and injury to the health of the children. What was required was that some efficient inspector should visit the schools without notice and report as to their sanitary condition. This was necessary in the country districts so long as small School Boards continued. The bigger School Boards had larger ideas as to the requirements of schools, but more adequate inspection of the sanitary arrangements was necessary in the country districts. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was not possible for him to encourage School Boards to make provision for driving children to school from the out-lying districts. In regard to school buildings great advantage would be derived if the smaller Boards had more explicit guidance from the Scottish Office as to the character of the school buildings required in the different localities. The result of the first regulations was to produce a school-rate in some parts of 6s. or 7s. in the £1, on account of the extravagant cost of the buildings which were put up. In some districts there were crowded and badly ventilated buildings where the money would have been better spent in providing larger space instead, of ornamental stone-work. He was sure that any guidance given by the Scottish Office would be respectfully attended to by School Boards, large and small.

called attention to the state of education in the Highlands and Western Islands and to the effect which the recent Minute of the Department would have on the continuation classes. The Minute would have the effect of closing these classes altogether. Owing to the social condition of the islands, and the extreme poverty which existed, education of any kind was carried on under considerable difficulties, but they, had, nevertheless, been able to carry on continuation classes very successfully. The children had to come from long distances, and for that reason it was more difficult to carry on elementary education. Up to now the School Board had been able to carry on these classes without any charge on the rates whatever. The grants they got from the Government covered the cost of carrying on the classes. Indeed in some cases there was a profit on them. The minute issued by the Department provided that in the case of continuation classes one-fourth must be borne out of the local rates. This was a very good Minute with regard to rich localities that could afford a little increase of the rate, but it was an absolutely impossible Minute with regard to the western islands of Scotland. He instanced a case in the western islands where last year the School Board carried on continuation classes which were attended by 511 pupils—young men and women—and involved no charge on the rates. This year with the charge of one-fourth of the expense the cost would have been £300 or £400. The Department in view of the special circumstances of the case had, he believed, reduced the charge to one-eighth. That was so much and the School Board was grateful for it, but even the eighth in this case represented £170. The rates in the parish were 10s. 7d. in the £1, so that the Committee would see it was absolutely impossible any more should be taken out of the rates to meet this extra charge. He had made representations to the Department about it, and the head of the Department was in absolute sympathy with them, but he had a difficulty in meeting the case. He would press on the attention of the House that this was a case which needed special treatment, and that those ratepayers should not be asked to contribute out of their penury for this matter. It was of great importance that they should have secondary and technical instruction in these islands, perhaps move important than on the mainland, and for this reason those who were interested in the prosperity of the islands, desired that young men and women should be enabled to go south for more profitable occupations than were to be found in the islands. It was the business of this House to provide them with the technical and the secondary education which would enable them to learn trades and professions and which would make them successful citizens of this country. He trusted that the Government would give a special grant to the islands to provide secondary education.

said it was unite impossible for some of the districts to contribute even one-eighth of the cost of the continuation classes referred to by the hon. Member for Inverness-shire. The people were poor and some arrangement should be made for getting rid of that charge. What was wanted was that the boys and girls in the districts where there were no industries should be educated so that they might be able to go south and make a living for themselves. He called attention to the Report of the Government Inspector, Mr. Walker, in regard to the insanitary condition of some of the schools and urged that steps should be taken to remedy this state of matters. The special grant to the Highlands was £1,200, but, in view of the requirements, he thought it should be larger. He hoped the Lord Advocate would bring this matter under the notice of the Secretary of Scotland.

supported the plea put forward by the hon. Member for Leith Burghs for more careful attention being given to the sanitary conditions of schools. He also concurred in the view of his hon. friend that it was a mistake to multiply small schools. Far more effective education could be given by gathering children together in considerable numbers in central schools. He hoped, therefore, that what his hon. friend had said would have the attention of the Education Department. He asked the Lord Advocate whether any steps had been taken since this time last year in the direction indicated by the debate, which took place there on the subject of the training of teachers. At that time the Lord Advocate gave them reason to believe that some steps would be taken in the direction of developing the system of enabling King's students to attend the universities. The new grant now under discussion to be granted to English education raised an important question, and he would only say, bearing in mind the very confused position in which Scotland now stood with regard to Education Grants, that he earnestly hoped that, when the Scotch Education Department came to consider the new grant which Scotland was to receive as the equivalent of the grant to be made to England under the present Education Bill, the opportunity would be taken to endeavour to bring about a general simplification of the confused position in which they stood with regard to their various grants. Whether what he desired would be done by legislation or by Minute, he did not know, but a good deal could be done in the way of consolidating these matters by a consolidating Minute.

said he did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the reorganisation of Scottish education could be secured by a Minute. What was required was a consolidating Act, which should put the Scottish education on a much clearer and more efficient basis. He hoped the time was rapidly approaching when this question of simplification might be dealt with, and he was quite sure that Lord Balfour was more competent than almost any one else in Scotland to deal with the matter, and give them good guidance. As to the sanitary condition of their day schools, he hoped nothing would be done by the Education Department of Scotland to weaken the responsibility of local authorities in regard to this matter.

assured the hon. Member for Mid Lanark that the views he had expressed with regard to the education grant would necessarily have very careful consideration, though he would remind him that his views were not entirely shared by those who sat beside him. The way in which the money received by Scotland would be used would be closely scrutinised, but it was not necessarily to be assumed that the money would be in the form of another extra grant. It would probably be more in the nature of an Imperial contribution, and the problem to be looked at would certainly be what contribution to local effort was to be given by the Imperial Exchequer. When they had once fixed upon that, he took it that they would apply it to Scotch needs and circumstances. As to the training of teachers, he could not say that any special new scheme had been inaugurated since the matter was dealt with last year. Greater advantage had been taken of these provisions which allowed of the University education of teachers by attending University classes, but he did not think that there had been any actual new departure in the course of the year. The whole question of the training of teachers still occupied the attention of the Education Department. With regard to the sanitary inspection of schools, he entirely repudiated the aspersion cast upon him that he treated this matter lightly. He did nothing of the kind.

Yes, you did.

That is not my view.

It is my view.

said the hon. Member was most courteous in his interruptions! What he said was that, so far from the Education Department not paying attention to the sanitary condition of the schools, they welcomed the Reports of their inspectors with regard to this question, and took action upon them. He certainly agreed with what had fallen from his hon. friend the Member for West Renfrew. It seemed to him that the local authority must remain the proper body to discharge this duty, and it would be something quite new to cast the duty directly on the education authority. The question of continuation classes in the Highlands would full to be considered in the light of further experience next year when the Code was brought up. The continuation Code had only been running one year.

urged with regard to the inspectorship of schools that the Education Department should do what it did with regard to other schools. Although it would be a difficult matter to deal with many small schools in different districts of Scotland, he did not think there would be any difficulty with regard to the large schools.

called attention to the fact that there were over 30,000 nomadic gipsies in Scotland. The condition of the children educationally was awful to contemplate, they were in the darkest of ignorance, and he hoped that some steps might be taken by which the Lord Advocate might take power to bring these children within the scope of the education laws.

moved to reduce the Vote by £100, not because he objected to this money being spent for the benefit of Irish farmers and others, but to point out that nothing of a similar character was ever done to assist the agriculturists of England, Scotland, or Wales. He desired to know how the money had been spent. In the majority of cases he believed the Government simply guaranteed the money, but in other cases grants were made to poor districts. England was doubtless a richer country than Ireland, but there were parts in which light railways would be of immense advantage to agriculturists and others. He thought everyone desired that they should do their best to make it easier for the small trader to carry on his business. He begged to move the Amendment standing in his name.

said the hon. Member would see from the Vote that in the previous Acts of Parliament assistance had been given to industries, and more especially for the development of the fishing and agricultural industries in certain parts of Ireland. Assistance was given in certain circumstances under the English Light Railways Act. The assistance now proposed was limited by the condition that there must be a guarantee before they spent the money for the continuous working of the lines by some existing railway company. He did not think it would be wise to advance money to provide a railway which might not benefit the district it was intended to serve. He hoped the hon. Baronet would not press his Amendment.

said he wished to call the attention of the Chief Secretary to what he considered was a blot on the Acts mentioned in this Vote. The guarantees under the Tramways and Railways Acts in some cases meant a very serious burden indeed to the ratepayers. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade in 1896 introduced and passed an Act for the extension of tramways, and he understood that there was u considerable unallocated balance of money upon that account. He thought the amount was about,£40,000 and that was the balance left after the various schemes had been sanctioned. He thought that balance might be used to help the poorer districts which were now suffering under the baronial guarantees which they were compelled to give in order that these light railways might be constructed. These guarantees amounted to an enormous tax upon the people. He admitted that these light railways had been a very great benefit to the people, and had brought them into touch with markets for their produce which would perhaps otherwise not have been accessible to them. He thought, however, that the cost to the ratepayers was far more than the benefits conferred upon them by the railways were worth. He hoped the Chief Secretary would give this matter his sympathetic consideration. He could assure the Chief Secretary that one of the great blots in carrying out these Acts was that they had insisted in the poorer districts on the burdens being placed upon the ratepayers. With regard to the further extension of this system, a great many applications were made after the passing of the Act of 1896. The charges which were now put upon the producers, who wished to get to the markets by these small lines, was a very great burden indeed, and constituted a grave difficulty in the way of economic reform in Ireland. Side by side with other questions, this railway grievance was a very serious matter in Ireland. The Act passed in 1899, to give extra facilities to public bodies in regard to development of agriculture, had been a failure, and no adequate means had been afforded the people of coming before the Railway and Canal Commission. The working of the Tramways Act had involved a very great increase of taxation in the poor districts, and had not conferred upon the people the benefits originally intended by the framers of the measure. Where these Acts had been put in force as feeders to the larger lines in order to develop the railway traffic, no effort, had been made to keep the railway dues and charges within reasonable bounds, and what was gained by the construction of the line was lost by the excessive charges placed upon the carriage of goods by the different railway companies. Unfortunately, it was necessary to go to enormous expense to get the railway companies before the Railway and Canal Commission, and the result was that public and private bodies were deterred from attempting to obtain a reduction of traffic dues. If this matter could be dealt with during the present session, he hoped Irish Members would sec that such clauses were put into the Acts proposed by the Government as would relieve those poor districts which were now so seriously overburdened by the guarantees, and which would also be to the advantage of the public who wished to avail themselves of these lines.

said that this Vote amounted to £45,000, but it was only a little more than one-third of the total annual grant, and it was largely supplemented by even a larger grant contributed by the public in Ireland. Therefore, there was a large sum granted by the Imperial and also by the local Exchequer to support these railways. It was little better than a scandal that this should be so. Why was there not some attempt made to make there railways remunerative? Why did the Chief Secretary not look into this matter more sympathetically; and why should these grants be made year after year, with a tendency to increase rather than diminish? The Cavan and Leitrim Railway had made a continuous demand upon the Imperial and local Exchequer. This line passed within about three miles of a coal mine, which supplied the engines of the company with coal, and yet there was no connecting line between the railway and the mine, and all the coal had to be conveyed all that distance by road. That was an example of the absurd way in which this money was wasted. With regard to the small amount of traffic done by the subsidised service of steamers on the Shannon, he thought this was largely due to the fact that the advantages which might otherwise be derived could not be achieved because the line had not been continued to the quay. He did not think there was a single railway mentioned on the first page of this Estimate which had ever paid its working expenses. The Irish railways were a continual burden to the local and Imperial taxpayer, and this was largely due to the fact that no logical attempt had been made to develop the service which was contemplated when the railways were established. Did the right hon. Gentleman mean to continue paying these large sums in connection with Irish railway enterprises to make good losses which might be turned to a profit if they were only developed in accordance with the original ideas of the line? There was one very heavy grant for a steamer on the Shannon which he wished to know something about. He had been on this subsidised steamer himself, and upon that occasion his party were the only passengers. He wished to know how much was granted to this particular steamer. An attempt had been made to artificially develop the tourist traffic, but this could not be done while they endeavoured to accommodate the local traffic, at the same time; and at the end of the guarantee he thought the steamers would be withdrawn and no good would have been done. He also wished to know how much money was provided in this Estimate for the steamer service from Sligo, or whether it was likely to succeed or not. He hoped the Chief Secretary would give them some further particulars in regard to the losses on these railways, which, in his opinion, occurred because the railways were not properly worked. The Government had great influence in Ireland with regard to railways, and if it were seen that proper facilities were given upon the Government railways a proper supply would be effected.

called attention to the condition of the Tralee and Dingle Railway. He pointed out that the railway was built nine years ago, and the defects of it were such as to have been the cause of enormous expenditure ever since. An accident to one of the bridges cost the ratepayers £5,000, and prevented people travelling over the railway. The ratepayers of the district were heavily burdened in regard to this railway, and when they appealed to the authorities to make it safe, they met with the reply that there were no fund available. The inspector of the Local Government Board reported the line to be in a dangerous condition, and recommended the expenditure of £12,000 to make it safe; therefore, they were justly entitled to claim that this recommendation should be carried out. The position of the line had become impossible, and the time had come to put it on a business footing. Although they were so heavily burdened with regard to the line, the people obtained no benefit from it whatever, and they were beginning to think that it would be better to tear up the line. At present the line constituted a serious danger to the lives of the people who travelled over it, and he thought the remedy was to make it safe or that it should be turned over to the Great Southern and Western Railway and run as part of their system. If it were properly served, it would, as it ran through the most beautiful part of Ireland, be patronised by a very large tourist traffic.

said a larger field of debate had opened than he had anticipated would be the case when he entered the Chamber, but all the speeches had been addressed to one subject, however, with the exception of the hon. Member for Somerset, who seemed jealous of the assistance given to Ireland to provide better railway facilities. The hon. Member should realise that the help had not been of a lavish character, and had not been in any sense favoured-nation treatment. Whenever grants were made to other parts of the United Kingdom a claim arose for a counterpoise in Ireland, and it had been recognised that the grant should be allocated to Ireland's greatest need—the development of steam traffic. In the absence of such facilities it was impossible for agriculture to thrive under any land system. Therefore, preceding Governments had followed the sound course of devoting money fairly due to Ireland to the development of means of transit. The hon. Member for Longford had referred to the Cavan and Leitrim Railway. In that case there had been no free grant; there had been baronial guarantees from the counties mentioned, and if the baronies still continued to pay, so also the Exchequer suffered in respect to this and another line in the district to the extent of £5,000 or £6,000 a year. In view of this fact, it was of interest to consider if any business-like arrangement could be entertained which would turn that loss into gain. Such a discussion, however, would scarcely be indulged in at the moment. What was needed at the moment was that all those interested in the welfare of Ireland should put their heads together and devise a plan to put the Cavan and Leitrim Kailway in a better condition. It would be quite possible to turn the railways to better account, and he had felt surprise that private enterprise had not come forward for the purpose. The hon. Member for North Longford seemed to think that a large sum was available under the Act of 1896. The total expenditure authorised under that Act was £500,000, and the whole of that had in a sense been hypothecated, with the exception that part of the expenditure under that Act was avowedly of an experimental character. For example, the Sligo and Belmullet steamer was to run for a certain number of years to see if through traffic could be developed between Sligo harbour and Belmullet, and it would not be right to interrupt the experiment until a fair trial had been given, and in view of the local expenditure on Sligo Harbour, upon which many thousands of pounds had been expended. About £25,000 still remained unexpended. There was no immediate prospect of the steamer's paying, but there was a marked and continuous development in the traffic returns. He regretted that the Marine Works Bill should be delayed, because there was a provision in it which would enable money raised under the Railways (Ireland) Act, 1896, to be applied to works under the Bill. He would have been very glad to get to work on that Bill as soon as the House was up, but if they must wait till October, there was no help for it. The time had come for taking stock of the experiments of 1896. He had done so, and he believed that savings might be effected under that Act. If there were a better coastwise traffic along the West coast of Ireland, it would be possible to work the mineral resources of that part of the country which at present could not be carried out except at a loss. He could not undertake to spend anything more on experimental tourist routes, and that would find employment for a number of people. He said frankly that he thought enough had been spent in that direction, and if they were to be developed it must be by private enterprise. It would be better for the Government to concentrate their efforts in providing better transshipment facilities for working the produce of the West of Ireland. As to the Dingle Railway, a hope had been expressed that it might be made to pay and might be made safe. He believed it ought to be made safe, but if it was made safe it did not follow that it would pay, and he could not admit that the barony could altogether complain because they had to go on with a guarantee, though he admitted that the charges in respect of the railway were a heavy burden on County Kerry. He would very much regret if, on account of such burdens, the mind of any one in Ireland were turned against reproductive works, for he believed that in that way a great deal might be done for the West of Ireland. As to the suggestion that the Dingle Railway should be handed over to the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, he doubted that would be possible, seeing that the cost of changing the gauge would be almost eight times the cost of making the line safe with the present gauge. Moreover, it was impossible to get the great railway companies to take over such lines when they were subject to legislation in respect of rates which they considered unjust. Agricultural rates were high, but no one could say that the railways made a great deal of money, and it would be futile to kill one industry in the hope of saving another. He did not know whether he was justified in saying so, but it appeared to him that many of those who complained did not avail themselves of the means of redress that they had at their disposal. They made general complaints, where, if they made specific complaints, he thought they would be remedied or at least receive greater consideration.

said the line and the carriages of the Dingle Railway were utterly unsuitable for the purposes intended, and recently, in consequence, during a severe storm a train was blown off the line. The hon. Member then referred to the Kilorglin line, for which he said a guarantee of an unreduced amount had still to be paid, although it was worked by the Great Southern and Western Company. Every effort had been made on the part of the ratepayers, by means of representation to the Irish Government and to the Department of Agriculture, to have the accounts of the Great Southern examined in order to obtain a reduction of the guarantee rate, but so far without avail. In the case of the Headfort and Kentnare line there was the competition of a waterway, by means of which traders were able to bring up their goods at a lower rate than would otherwise rule, but the pier was so much out of repair that the waterway stood a fair chance of being knocked out of the competition. Recently the Chief Secretary said nothing could be done in the matter, but surely there might be an examination of the accounts of the railway. If there was, he was satisfied the fact would be disclosed that the traffic along the line had gone on increasing.

said that the whole story of the construction and management of the light railways was deplorable. These lines were managed by people who were in no way responsible to the commercial classes of the community. With regard to specific complaints, the complaint they made was that the Agricultural Department did not seek for power to audit the books of the Great Southern and Western Company, with a view of seeing whether the Kenmare line was properly worked or not. Then there was the case of the Tralee and Dingle Railway and the Sehull and Skibbereen line. He had no expectation that any expenditure of money would result in greater facilities of transport or in any considerable development of the industries of the country as long as the present system of management obtained, under which the people found the money, but had a very little share in the control. The whole story of light railways construction was a deplorable one. In many cases the lines had been badly constructed, and were carried on without any regard to the views of the commercial classes. If the whole control could not be given to the people, there ought, at least, to be a qualified inspector appointed to represent the Board of Works, whose duty it would be to go into these various matters, and see what improvements could be effected in the management, with a view to making the railways more useful to the districts through which they ran.

hoped the Chief Secretary would reconsider his decision to postpone the Marine Works Bill until the autumn. The measure might be passed after a very moderate amount of discussion unless it were blocked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Antrim. Nothing could be devised better calculated to relieve the poverty along the North-West coasts of Ireland than measures to enable the fishermen to pursue their calling. The fishermen in the islands off the West coast had been lifted, by such measures, out of chronic poverty into comparative comfort. No expenditure was morn promising than that under the Marine Works Bill, which would give the people a chance of becoming self-supporting and moderately prosperous. With reference to the question of light railways, he hoped there was not going to be a reversal to the policy of the Act of 1883, under which a heavy burden was cast upon the ratepayer. Since the adoption of the new policy the railways had been excellently constructed in all respects. The question of railway rates was, no doubt, a burning one, but, in spite of all that had been said, he held that the only true and practicable policy, from a business point of view, was to build these railways with a view to their being handed over to and worked by some of the great companies. These feeder lines must be at the mercy of the main trunk lines, which, unless they got hold of them, would not grant them the facilities necessary to their proper development. These main lines were undoubtedly selfish and always would be until they were nationalised under a Home Rule Government. Pending that, these great railway companies had to be dealt with. Furthermore, these branch lines would not pay unless they were worked in conjunction with the main lines. He had alluded to this matter chiefly because something said by the Chief Secretary aroused in his mind a suspicion that the right hon. Gentleman might be considering a reversal of that policy by going back to the narrow gauge lines. In Ireland they ought to stick to the broad guage, because if they did not it would be impossible to lower the railway rates if they had to continually tranship the goods from one line to another.

said he wished to join in the appeal to the Chief Secretary not to postpone the Marine Works Bill, which, inadequate though it was, would yet confer advantages on one of the most interesting but poverty-stricken districts of the country. It would be a great disappointment to his constituents if the Bill was not carried this session. He urged the Chief Secretary to make every effort to pass the Bill this week, so that Connemara might get the advantage of it.

called attention to the case of the railway from Cavan to Leitrim, which, having been constructed by local guarantee under the Act of 1883, had been a very severe burden, especially on the people of South Leitrim. The railway had never paid, and for nearly 20 years the ratepayers had had to pay 5 per cent. interest on the capital and also to make up a deficiency on the working expenses. In the case of a farmer who bought his land the repayments would not come to 5 per cent, and why should the ratepayers have to pay a bigger sum than the tenant farmer who bought his land. It had been stated that in return for their contribution the ratepayers had some control over these lines, but they had no control whatever over the election of directors. It was the grand jury who represented nobody who appointed the baronial directors. In regard to the Cavan and Leitrim line the ratepayers had no voice whatever in the appointment of the directors, although they had to pay 5 per cent. upon the capital, and also had to contribute to the working expenses of the line. The only way to relieve the ratepayers would be to municipalise these light railways. He hoped that when the right hon. Gentleman came to deal with these light railways he would bear in mind the very heavy burden they were to the poorer districts. If the Cavan and Leitrim railway had constructed a few branch lines it would have been a paying concern, instead of which the ratepayers had to make up the loss.

said that the only policy to pursue in respect of the Irish light railways was for the State to purchase them and nationalise them. The traffic rates on Irish railways could be reduced by 50 per cent, and then be made to pay. Some of the railways which had been mentioned were broad gauge lines, but in his own constituency they had the narrow gauge which was difficult and costly to work, and this was rendered far more expensive by the cost of transshipment which would not have been necessary had the line been constructed upon the broad gauge system. There was one point which he thought in a great measure had been lost sight of, and it was that no matter how much money they spent upon developing agriculture and railways, it would not be of the slightest use to the producer and to the people generally unless those enormous and ruinous charges made by the companies wore considerably reduced, for at the present time they would not enable the agriculturist to exist. The first thing that ought to be done to bring anything like prosperity to Ireland was that the Irish railways should be acquired by the State. He believed that if the railways of Ireland were placed in the hands of commercial people they would pay and be of enormous benefit to the country. If they were properly managed, the traffic rates could be reduced by 50 percent., and still be made to pay. It was an absolute absurdity that a poor country like Ireland should have to struggle against these enormous railway charges. It was a fact that they could get butter from Denmark in this country cheaper than from Dublin. Many of the suggestions which had been made would have been no use unless they went right to the bottom of the difficulty, because the lines instead of being conducted in their interests were of no benefit whatever because they were mismanaged.

The hon. Member will not be in order, on this Resolution, in going into the general question of the management of Irish railways.

said if it was not in order to speak of their management he could only ask the Chief Secretary to inquire into that matter. He had for many years taken a deep interest in the piers and harbours of Ireland, and he was certain that the best assistance that could be given to them was by providing railways.

said he was sorry to intervene, but he did so because he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would say a word in answer to what had fallen from the hon. Member for East Mayo as to the Marine Works Bill. The suggestion was that it might be taken in front of the Public Works Loans Bill, and at an hour when they would be able to obtain the discussion necessary. There was an understanding which had now become impossible that they were to have another sitting for the discussion of those Bills. A comparatively short time would be sufficient for the discussion of the Marine Works Bill, and if the suggestion of his hon. friend were followed it would save this Bill from going over to the autumn session with all the risks which must necessarily attend its going over to that time. Really this was a matter of arrangement, and if the right hon. Gentleman would come to an understanding with the hon. Member below the gangway, who was the chief opponent, it might be possible to get the Bill through before they separated.

said it would be impossible for him to respond definitely to the suggestion of the hon. Member in the absence of the Leader of the House. He was anxious to see progress made with the Bill, but it was necessary to include the Public Works Loans Bill in the financial business of the ordinary session. If it was not obtained now, the Commissioners would not have sufficient money to carry on their work until the Autumn session, and would be unable to make advances under the loans already sanctioned.

said that what he suggested was that the Marine Works Bill should be put on the Paper before the Public Works Loans Bill.

said he would most gladly assent to the proposed arrangement on the understanding that on the Second Reading of the Public Works Loans Bill it should be treated as a non-controversial measure. If the latter Bill were not passed the greatest inconvenience would be caused to municipalities and other public bodies in England.

said he was not in a position to say that the Public Works Loans Bill would be treated as a non-controversial measure. All that he asked was that the Marine Works Bill should be placed in front of it. The discussion of it would take a limited time, and to that extent only would the Public Works Loans Bill be delayed.

said that if there were a disposition to facilitate business any machinery would serve the purpose. He was only afraid that the discussion on the first Bill might be prolonged to delay the second.

called attention to the statements of statistics with regard to emigration, and other matters which were prepared by that office. It appeared that last year there were 40,000 emigrants, and during the last fifty years the total number had been about 4,000,000. No one ever paid the slightest attention to the statistics presented. The Chief Secretary in a recent speech stated that what Ireland wanted was that some step should be taken to stop emigration, which was the real grievance of Ireland. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman and wished to know whether any steps were to be taken. Were these terrible statistics to be collected every year for no practical purpose?

said that by statistical information was gauged the size and nature of a problem, and that at least was the condition precedent to dealing with the problem. The subject