To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state how many accidents have occurred during the last ten years to men in the British Navy engaged in firing salutes; and what steps the Admiralty have taken or intend to take to ensure the observance of regulations on such occasions in future in order to avert such accidents. (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) So far as can be ascertained, the recent accident in the "Victory" is the fourth that has occurred to saluting parties in His Majesty's ships during the last ten years. Each of these accidents was made the subject of a court of inquiry, and such additional instructions as were considered necessary by the Board of Admiralty were issued to the Fleet. The regulations already contained in the Gunnery Drill Book are considered to be quite sufficient to ensure safety in the firing of salutes, and the responsibility for the proper observance of these Regulations rests with the gunner in charge of the saluting party. It is not proposed to issue any further instructions in consequence of the accident in the "Victory."

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether any modification of the conditions has been arrived at affecting those seamen pensioners who re-engage for a further period of five years after completion of time for pension, and who have earned the good conduct medal and gratuity, which hitherto have been liable to forfeiture during this period of extra service. (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The Admiralty have decided that in future when a man who is entitled to the maximum good conduct gratuity on completion of his second period of continuous service re-engages for a third period, he may be paid the good conduct gratuity to which he is entitled instead of waiting until he is discharged to pension. The good conduct medal, to which the hon. Member also refers, has always been awarded as soon as earned.

To ask the Postmaster General, in view of the inconvenience caused by the rule that postal orders made payable at a town or city are payable only at the central office of that town or city to persons living at a distance from the central office, will he alter this rule so that such postal orders may be payable at sub-offices. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) It is the practice to cash postal orders made payable at a town, without the mention of any particular office in it, either at the head office of the town or at any branch office. But I fear that an extension of this practice to all sub-post offices in a large town would be likely to facilitate fraud, and would render it very difficult to comply with a remitter's request to stop payment of an order.

To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether his attention has been called to the fact that in 1899 and 1900 only American locomotives were purchased for use on the Uganda Railway; whether he can state the reason of the change from the previous practice of purchasing English and Indian locomotives only; and whether any examination has been made of the comparative scale of locomotive expenses in connection with the various kinds of locomotives used. (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) The answer to the hon. Gentleman's Question is to be found in Sir Guilford Moles-worth's Report (Africa, No. 5, 1899, p. 14). The locomotives referred to were ordered in the United States in October, 1898, because they were urgently wanted, and works in England were too congested orders to give delivery within reasonable time. To have waited until English firms could guarantee delivery would have greatly delayed the construction of the railway, and thus caused heavy additional expense. No engines were at the time to he obtained from India. A detailed comparison between the various classes of engine shown upon page 3 of the Report has not been possible, but if the hon. Gentleman wishes it I will cause inquiry to be made.

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state the number of loans sanctioned in respect of the forty-four applications to the Local Government Board from local authorities in England and Wales for sanction to loans under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, the total amount borrowed, and the number of houses actually bought by any persons under the Act. (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The Local Government Board have sanctioned loans in respect of forty of the applications referred to, the amount sanctioned being £42,797. The greater part of this amount was sanctioned for advances in respect of 155 specified houses, and the remainder is to be used in making advances in other cases, particulars of which have not yet been given. I am not able to state the number of houses actually bought by reason of advances under the Act.

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether an early reply will be given as to the grievances of Customs boatmen, as the result of the recent inquiry by the Board of Customs. (Answered by Hr. Hayes Fisher.) The answer to the boatmen's representations was postponed because it was considered that the question might be affected by the result of an inquiry now in progress into the duties of the waterguard generally. This inquiry will probably be concluded in a few weeks.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state the principle upon which clerical employment at the War Office is given to applicants for such employment; and with whom the duty of selecting candidates rests. (Answered by Hr. Secretary Brodrick.) My hon. and gallant friend presumably refers to the employment of officers and ex-soldiers in the War Office. The selection of officers depends on their qualifications, combined with any special claims, and is therefore by merit. The candidate is recommended by the Commander-in-Chief to the Secretary of State for approval. The selection of ex-soldiers depends on their qualifications, preference being as far as possible given to men who have suffered in health from wounds, or other Meets of active service, provided that they have the requisite clerical experience.

To ask the Secretary of State for War if he can inform the House the difference between the present strength of the Militia and that of the Establishment, exclusive of officers and permanent staff, laid down for 1902–3, and if he has any official Reports showing the present state of recruiting for the Militia, and whether the deficiency in numbers will soon be made good. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Establishment is 123,016, and the strength on the 1st October was 104,380. The deficiency is considerably less than in preceding years, the recruiting showing a marked improvement. If the Bill for establishing a new Militia Reserve becomes law in the present session, I hope that next year will see great progress towards making up the Establishment.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can inform the House of the number by which effective Volunteers are short of the number laid down as the establishment for 1902–03, and the number of resignations in all ranks that has taken place during the last three months. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The establishment has gradually risen during the war to 346,450, but it was not contemplated this would be permanent. The strength on the 1st October was 272,957. The number who voluntarily quitted the force between 1st July and 1st September was 4,261; the details for the month of October are not yet reported. It is probable that the numbers of the force will gradually assimilate themselves to those before the war, which averaged about 225,000, which the Military authorities consider fully adequate to all needs on mobilisation, provided they are really efficient.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it has been brought to his notice that there is dissatisfaction among the officers commanding Volunteer Active Service Companies in the late war, some of whom were mentioned in despatches, owing to the fact that they have been, with one or two exceptions, excluded from the marks of appreciation given to officers in the Regular Army, and will he state why those officers who have been recommended by their Commanding Officers for permanent commissions in the rank in which they have served during the campaign have not been admitted to such regular service; and whether he will take steps to remove the alleged grievance.

I regret that there should be any dissatisfaction among the officers named, whose services are highly appreciated, but no such dissatisfaction has reached me. Out of 589 Volunteer officers employed in South Africa, seventy were mentioned in despatches, and of these sixteen received rewards. No promise was made of regular commissions—these have only been given in exceptional cases. The hon. Member is probably aware that many Militia Officers who did good service in South Africa, and who wished for line commissions, have not obtained them. In so long a war, where so much good service has been done, it is impossible to reward everyone, and nearly 5,000 officers were mentioned in despatches.

I beg to ask the Secretary to State for War whether he has any official report as to the conduct and efficiency of the new garrison regiments at Malta and elsewhere, and as to the result of the experiment of their employment.

Official reports have been received from Malta. The scheme is working satisfactorily, despite its having been necessary to start it during the war, when the selection of officers and noncommissioned officers was necessarily limited. The privates are a fine body of men, who can shoot and march well. A steady improvement is expected by the Commander-in-Chief, now that special attention can be given to the composition of these regiments.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the meeting of railway officials held at the Railway Clearing House during last month (October) to consider the question of either side brakes on railway waggons, he can say if the brakes are of uniformity in application, and if they have been approved by the Board of Trade.

The Board of Trade have not at present received from the Railway Companies any report of the proceedings at the meeting referred to.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the case of an assistant guard at Hither Green Station, on the South Eastern and Chatham Railway, who was called on duty on Sunday, 2nd November, at 10.30 a.m., after completing one shift of duty at 8 a.m., and having worked 84 hours that week; and whether he will take steps to prevent the employment of guards for so prolonged a period, and to provide for proper intervals for rest.

No representations on behalf of the railway servant referred to have reached the Board of Trade. Such representations, if made, would be dealt with in accordance with the Act of 1893.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a fatal accident which occurred to Henry lade at the Thames Ironworks level crossing on the Great Eastern Railway, on the 6th instant, through the gates not being locked from the signal cabin; and will he take steps to get the interlocking system put into operation at this place.

Yes, Sir; this sad accident was duly notified to the Board of Trade, and they have received the Coroners Return. The crossing in question is stated to he a private or occupation crossing, and the requirements as to public road crossings are therefore not applicable, but I am informed that a gatekeeper is in attendance. I shall be happy, however, to put the hon. Member's suggestion before the railway company.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Congested Districts Board are aware that the Mid-Ross District Committee report that the proposed road from the Dundonnell Road to Badluachrach cannot be proceeded with owing to the grant offered by the Congested Districts Board being insufficient; and, seeing that the people of the district have already constructed part of the mad, will the Congested Districts Board consider the expediency of increasing their grant.

The Congested Districts Board intimated to the County Council of Ross and Cromarty that they were prepared to make a grant of 75 per cent. of the estimated cost of the road in question, and in the opinion of the Congested Districts Board no case for an increase of the grant has been made out.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that the Lewis District Committee report that, in consequence of the public health assessment for the Lewis district for the past year being at the maximum rate of 1s. per £, they are unable to borrow the money required for the construction of a hospital at Carlo-way, the plans of which have been approved by the Local Government Board; and, in view of the fact that this hospital is urgently needed for cases of infectious diseases, will he state whether the Secretary for Scotland proposes to take any steps, by legislation or otherwise, to enable local authorities to provide hospital accommodation for infectious diseases in the congested districts of the Island of Lewis.

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his Question of yesterday.†

The right hon. Gentleman has not, evidently, read the Question. The latter part of it is not referred to in the answer I got yesterday—viz., does the Secretary for Scotland propose to take any steps, by legislation or otherwise, to enable local authorities to provide hospital accommodation.

I said that we could not take steps at this present moment.

I am quite aware of that, but—

Order, order! The right hon. Gentleman has fully answered the Question.

No, Sir; the Question is—

Order, order! I cannot enter into any argument whether or not the answer is satisfactory.

But—

Order, order!

I must take another opportunity of dealing with this question.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, seeing that the Western District Committee for the county of Ross and Cromarty report that a road and bridge at Applecross are urgently necessary, will he state on what ground the Congested Districts Board have declined to provide a grant in aid of the work.

On the ground that the local authorities have more than once altered, and have so much enlarged their plans in comparison with the original proposal placed before the Congested Districts Board, and that the

† See page 594.

Board are not satisfied that the public benefit to be gained would be commensurate with the expenditure now suggested.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, whether the petition to His Majesty the King, signed by over 2,000 crofters, cottars, fishermen, and others of the island of Lewis, has reached the hands of the Secretary for Scotland; and, if so, will he state what action it is proposed to take in the matter.

I can only refer the hon. Member to my reply Ito his similar Question of yesterday.†

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that the entrance to the house in the district of Ness, island of Lewis, in which a man named Mackay died of typhus fever on the 14th September last, is so near other houses that it was impossible to get a coffin inside the house, and that the body of Mackay had to be taken out before it could be coffined; will he state whether the Local Government Board for Scotland have approved any bye-laws such as will admit of the early destruction of similar insanitary houses in the island of Lewis; and, if not, will he state what steps the Local Government Board propose to take in the matter.

The Secretary for Scotland is not aware of the facts as stated by the hon. Member. On the contrary, the Secretary for Scotland is informed that the body of Mackay was coffined in the room where he, Mackay, died. The Local Government Board has no bye-laws, or power to make such bye-laws, as the hon. Member suggests. In this particular ease, however, permission has been obtained from the heirs of deceased to destroy the house in question.

I can only say that the information supplied to the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely false.

Order, order!

I was on the spot and saw it.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state the qualifications of Mr. McIloy, ironmonger, of Rothesay, Buteshire, for appointment as a member of the Scottish Fishery Board.

The qualifications of the gentleman in question are the same now as they were when he was appointed more than five years ago. He is a native of, and exceptionally well acquainted with, the Western Highlands adjoining the Firth of Clyde; he has a large acquaintance with the local fishermen; and is an ex-Provost of Rothesay. I ought to add that his services to the Board, of which he is an unpaid member, have been unremitting; and he has by those services given complete satisfaction to his colleagues and to the Secretary for Scotland.

And a good Tory.

The hon. Member asked me as to his special qualifications for appointment to the Fishery Board; I did not think it necessary to add my testimony to his general good sense, which is well known.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the action of certain district councillors in the Roscrea No. 3 Rural District, in respect of applications of labourers for cottages and plots under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts; and whether he will direct the inspectors of the Local Government Board to insist on suitable sites being selected in this district.

The Inspector who held the recent inquiry into the scheme proposed by the District Council, states that the Council gave very intelligent consideration to the various representations, and selected the sites with much judgment. The result of the inquiry will shortly be communicated to the Council.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether his attention has been directed to complaints as to the nature of the living pictures exhibited in mutoscopes at Longford and in public places at other railway stations in Ireland; and whether he will direct the Royal Irish Constabulary to institute prosecutions in any of these cases.

No complaints have been made to the Constabulary in this matter, either in County Longford or elsewhere in Ireland.

Why don't the Constabulary look after these things, instead of the public having to direct attention to them?

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the resolutions of the clerical managers of national schools in the diocese of Dromore, and in the diocese of Ardagh, as to the continuance of Dr. Starkie as Resident Commissioner of National Education; and whether he is prepared to take any action in the matter.

I have seen the resolutions referred to. I have nothing to add to the reply given by me on Wednesday last, to a similar Question of the hon. Member.†

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the agitation caused in Ireland by this gentleman's conduct?

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he has received resolutions from the Limerick Chamber of Commerce and Limerick Harbour Board, complaining that the Congested Districts Board have, to the detriment of the Port of Limerick, subsidised the Clyde Company at Cork; and whether he can state on what grounds the Board have refused a subsidy to a Limerick steamer trading with the south and south-west ports.

This matter received the very careful consideration of the Congested Districts Board, and the conclusion come to was that a case for subsidising two lines of steamers on the same coast was not made out. The payment of the subsidy to the Clyde Company has been continued for a further period of one year, as a tentative measure.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether complaints have been received as to the destruction caused in Dublin Bay to line fishermen by trawlers; and whether instructions will be given to the Commander of the "Helga," in Kingstown Harbour, to safeguard the rights of line fishermen in Dublin Bay.

Every precaution is taken to prevent illegal fishing in these waters, both by the new Department's cruiser and the coastguard.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received resolutions from the Sligo Corporation and Sligo Harbour Board as to the adoption of Sligo as a port of call for the fast Atlantic mail service with Canada; and if he can state whether he proposes to give effect to these resolutions.

I have no power to give effect to such resolutions. But any representations made to me in the matter of harbour facilities in the west of Ireland I will receive the consideration of the Government.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consent to receive a deputation from the Sligo Corporation on the subject?

I will consider that.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can indicate the grounds upon which the resignation has been accepted of Sir David Harrel as Under Secretary; and if he can state when he will be in a position to announce the change of Irish policy connected with the appointment of Sir Antony M'Donnel to that position.

The first query is unusual. In reply, I have to say that the sole ground for accepting Sir David Harrel's resignation was that it is impossible to persist in asking a public servant to re-consider a resignation tendered after prolonged, exacting, devoted and distinguished service, upon the sole ground of ill-health. May I add that I cannot, within the compass of an answer, express my gratitude to Sir David Harrel for the assistance he has given me, or my admiration of the work he has done for his country. In reply to the second Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the speech which I made in the House on Monday, 27th October†, and to the announcement, more than once repeated, that a Land Purchase Bill will be the principal measure of next session.

Was not that speech a coercion speech?

When the right hon. Gentleman says "principal" measure next session, does he mean principal Government measure or principal Irish measure?

I think it is premature to discuss the exact hierarchical precedence of measures at this stage.

My Question merely arose out of the expression used by the right hon. Gentleman, which seemed to me to be ambiguous.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he is prepared to drop the policy of coercion?

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many ladies have been prosecuted for newspaper offences since the passing of the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887, how many ladies have been

† See preceding volume, page 914.

imprisoned under the operations of that Act, and what is the nature of the prison treatment in their cases.

There have been two such prosecutions. One was dismissed. In the other case the defendant was called upon to give sureties for good behaviour, or to go to prison in default. The conviction was confirmed by the Superior Court. Persons committed to prison in default of entering into sureties are subject to the rules prescribed for prisoners awaiting trial. These rules will be found in Parliamentary Papers Nos. 129 and 189 of this Session.

Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the case he has referred to. It is one which excites a great amount of sympathy all over Ireland, and everybody believes this laity to be the victim of circumstances. She is not in good health.

Of course the question of the health of a prisoner always receives careful consideration.

Then let her off.

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the prosecutions at the last Carlow Petty Sessions for breaches of the sanitary laws, which were dismissed, although the offences complained of still continue; and whether he will take steps to have the sanitary laws enforced in these cases.

The prosecutions, which were instituted at the suit of the District Council, were dismissed without prejudice, owing, I believe, to some technical informality in the framing of the summons. Fresh proceedings are, I understand, about to be instituted. It is the duty of the local sanitary authority, not of the Crown, to enfore the sanitary laws in the district.

I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether his attention has been directed to resolutions passed by the Londonderry Corporation requesting Inns to establish a Sunday morning delivery of letters in that city, and will he grant this request.

The Corporation were informed on the 29th ultimo that their request for a house to house delivery of letters in the Londonderry Town District on Sundays, in place of the present delivery to callers at the Post Office, will be complied with if they will furnish me with an assurance that the inhabitants generally are in favour of the change.

But has not the right hon. Gentleman received an assurance from the Corporation, by way of resolution passed by that body, informing him that the inhabitants are in favour of the change?

I think not.

I happened to be present at the meeting at which it was passed.

It has not reached me personally.

Will the right hon. Gentleman further inquire?

Yes, of course I will.

I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that complaints have been made in Navan, county Meath, as to the delay and non-delivery of letters addressed in Irish characters to the secretary of the Navan Branch of the Gaelic League; and whether he will arrange that post office officials in. Ireland shall acquire a knowledge of the Irish language so as to prevent a repetition of these complaints.

No such complaint has reached me. As regards the general Question, I can add nothing to the answer given by me to the hon. Member for South Leitrim on the 10th instant.†

Why will the right hon. Gentleman carry on this boycotting of the Irish language?

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether an accident which occurred to a fireman named Bernard Smith, at Newry on the Great Northern Railway (Ireland) on kith September last, has been reported to the Board of Trade; and, if so, will he state when it was reported.

No, Sir. The accident referred to has not been notified to the Board of Trade, and inquiry is being made of the Railway Company concerned.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what steps have been taken by the Irish Lights Commissioners to have removed the wreck, already reported to them, from the Channel, off Burtonport, County Donegal, and thereby remove a source of danger to the shipping frequenting that coast.

I am informed by the Commissioners of Irish Lights that they are not aware of the existence of any wreck in the Channel off Burtonport. The attention of the Board of Trade and of the Commissioners was called last September to a letter in a newspaper stating that the writer had seen a wreck seven miles from the west end of Tory Island, but all attempts to trace the writer of the letter have failed. During the present month the Board of Trade has received a letter from the gentleman who originally forwarded the newspaper saying that he, too, had found it impossible to trace the writer, and that he had come to the conclusion that the letter was a hoax.

Will the right hoe. Gentleman instruct the Irish Lights Commissioners to make a search for the wreckage?

So far as can be learned, it has not been seen by anybody.

But have von not received a letter from a county councillor and local magistrate stating that the wreck had been seen?

I am not aware of it.

You acknowledged the receipt.

Oh, it was an anonymous letter, I believe.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Commissioners of Income Tax do not now sit for the hearing of Appeals in the city of Armagh as formerly, and that, in consequence, appellants from Armagh and the neighbouring district are put to cost and inconvenience by having to go to Portadown; and whether, seeing that Armagh is central for the county, also the County town, he will direct that sittings of the Court shall he held there in future.

The Special Commissioners of income Tax have not sat at Armagh since 1900, but they would be ready to do so in any year in which the amount of business there may make it desirable.

There were no fewer than forty Appeals at the last sittings, and the appellants had to travel from Armagh to Portadown.

I was not aware of that, but it seems to point to the desirability of holding the sittings at Armagh in such a case.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Londonderry Shipbuilding Yard has been lately examined by Admiralty experts with a view to the placing of work in that yard; and whether the Admiralty will consider the advisability of having repairs executed in Londonderry to His Majesty's ships stationed in or off the Irish coast.

The Londonderry Shipbuilding Yard was inspected in April, 1901, and, as a result of that inspection, was placed on the Admiralty Shipbuilding List for small vessels, and the Company has been invited to tender for several orders. A later inspection has taken place during the present year, and, in consequence of the reports received as to its capabilities, the Yard has now been placed on the List for the repair of hulls of vessels up to and including third class cruisers. The Admiral Superintendent of Naval Reserves has been so informed.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any arrangement has as yet been arrived at by the War Department with the Congested Districts Board of Ireland with reference to the construction of a boat slip for fishermen at Port Erlin, Leenan Head, Lough Swilly.

In October, 1901, the Congested Districts Board asked and received permission to make a preliminary survey for the purpose of erecting a breakwater at Port Erlin. The survey is understood to have been made in March, 1902. No further communication, however, has been received from the Congested Districts Board.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can state what action the Government intend to take in connection with schemes for London locomotion; whether he will consider the advisability of appointing a Royal Commission to inquire into the question of London locomotion generally, and specially as to the advisability of appointing a body with statutory powers to deal with it; and if so, whether he will, pending the Report of the Commission, defer any action being taken in the matter. I may say that I only ask today particularly with regard to the latter part of my Question. The remaining Portion was replied to yesterday.

I do not imagine that it would be possible to appoint a body with statutory powers except by Act of Parliament. That would be a rather formidable undertaking, and I should not like to go beyond what I said yesterday in answer to the right hon. Gentleman opposite.†

in bringing in a Bill to amend the borrowing provisions of the Electric Lighting Act, 1882, and the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1890, explained that its object was to get over a difficulty which had arisen under the existing Electric Lighting Acts, and which was calculated to press hardly on local authorities. Under these Acts it was provided that the provisions as to borrowing powers should be on the same lines as in the Gas Acts, and unfortunately it had been ruled that where money had already been borrowed for gas purposes the amount must be taken into account with regard to powers for borrowing for electric lighting. That certainly was not the intention of the Act, and hence a short Act was necessary to remedy the difficulty. Bill to amend the borrowing provisions of the Electric Lighting Act, 1882, and the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1890, ordered to be brought in by the Lord Advocate and Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland.

said the matter referred to in the Amendment he rose to move had been to a certain extent dealt with by the alterations made in a former Clause; still he considered, with regard to joint committees dealing with two districts having matters relating to education, those committees should receive the direct attention and control of the education authorities. He believed that at the present time in county boroughs it was necessary that all the proceedings of the Education Department authority should be brought before the Council for adoption, but in the counties a different method of procedure was adopted, the Councils having power to delegate their authority to any committee, with such powers as they thought fit. If his Amendment were carried it would leave the law in regard to Education Committees to be appointed under this Section in the same position in all respects as it now stood.

said he gathered that the hon. Member's object had been more or less met by modifications already introduced into the Bill. Did he care to press the Amendment under the circumstances The matter could, if necessary, be further dealt with in the schedule, but he was not convinced that it would not be better to leave it to the local authorities to deal with the point in the schemes they presented. He preferred the latter course, as it would leave room for such elasticity of arrangements as might be rendered expedient by the varied circumstances of the different localities.

said that when the Committee discussed the question of the frequency of meetings and certain other connected subjects, it was understood—although the Government did not absolutely pledge itself—the matter should be raised on the schedule. If, however, his hon. friend preferred to press his Amendment to a division, he would suggest that the words "or joint" should be omitted from it.

asked the Prime Minister if he could not expedite the presentation of the schedule dealing with the question of the frequency of meetings both of committees and managers. Since the point was last under discussion he had received letters from schoolmasters stating that their managers seldom if ever met. In one case there had been no meeting for twelve years, and in another for five years. As they had to deal with the remainder of the Bill in a hurry, it was desirable that right hon. Gentlemen should have the Government proposals without delay.

replied that the request of the hon. Gentleman was not at all unreasonable, and due expedition would be shown in putting the schedule on the Paper. The statement as to the non-meeting of managers was, he believed, perfectly correct. As to the Amendment, he was still far from convinced that it would not be much better to leave it to the local authorities to arrange this matter by scheme. He could not, however, give any pledge.

was very sorry to hear that, especially as they were to have a limited time for the discussion of the schedule. He urged the hon. Member to press the Amendment, in order that they might have sense of the House. He also suggested that the words "or joint" should be left out, otherwise he would

said he would adopt the suggestion to omit the words "or joint."

moved to leave out sub-Section (6), which is as follows—

"In wales and Monmouthshire any county governing body constituted under a scheme Made in pursuance of the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1859, shall he the education committee under this Act of the council of the county or county borough, unless any other scheme is proposed by the council."

and to insert the new sub-Section standing in his name. Those with whom he was closely identified fully appreciated the compliment paid them by the Government in respect of the admirable work done by the existing bodies in Wales, so far as the administration of the Technical Instruction Act was concerned, but he wished strongly to urge that they preferred that all education in Wales should come under one authority. The object of the Amendment was to avoid dual control. In Wales they should have one authority-dealing with every section of education. Amendment proposed—

"In page 5, line 16, to leave out sub-Sect ion (6), and insert: (6) 'Any scheme for establishing an education committee of the council of any county or county borough in Wales or of the county of Monmouth or county borough of New port, s provide that the county governing body constituted under The Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1589, for any such county or county borough shall cease to exist, and shall make such provision as appears necessary or expedient for the transfer of the powers, duties, property and liabilities of any such body to the local education authority under this Act, and for making the provisions of this section applicable to the exercise by the local education authority of the powers so transferred.'"—(Sir Alfred Thomas.)

said that as the Committee was aware, and as the hon. Gentleman had stated, sub-Section (6) was inserted in order to meet what were supposed to be the views of the Welsh Members in regard to bodies that had done admirable service for education in Wales in the past. Of course, the Government could not but welcome any change in the Bill that would put Wales in the same position as England in regard to education; and in the circumstances he would be glad, on behalf of the Government, to accept the Amendment.

said he was sorry to have to introduce a discordant note. The change, however, which was proposed was of a much more serious character than many hon. Members imagined. The constitution of the bodies to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred in such generous terms, and which would be endorsed by all who were acquainted with the Welsh system, differed from the constitution of the education committees to be established by the Bill. The Committee might perhaps remember that he moved the omission of sub-Section (b) of Clause 12, which provided for the appointment by the council, on the nomination, where it appeared desirable, of other bodies, of persons of experience in education, and of persons acquainted with the needs of various kinds of schools. The county governing body in Wales which carried out the Welsh Intermediate system was constituted on somewhat similar lines; but there was one serious difference. The appointing bodies under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act were all of an undenominational unsectarian character. From a Return recently issued on the Motion of his hon. friends the Member for Denbigh Boroughs, it would be seen that the great majority of the members of the county governing bodies were appointed by the County Councils, the minority, representing other interests, being appointed by the educational bodies or by public bodies; and, in every case, with two or three exceptions, the educational body was the University College, the School Board, and not the manages of non-provided schools. It came out very clearly in the discussion on Clause 12 that it was the intention of the Government to have representatives of denominations on the education committees, as well as representatives of denominations on the education committees, as well as representatives of public bodies; whereas, under the Welsh system, which entirely excluded anything like sectarianism, there was absolutely no religious test whatever imposed. This had not prevented harmonious co-operation between Churchmen and Non-conformists. Indeed, the Bishop of St. David's had rendered most valuable services educationally, not only on the body with which he was connected, but also generally. Under the Welsh system, all denominational trouble was excluded from the schools; but now that policy was about to be reversed by the Government. If he had anything to do with the new Act, he would say frankly that he would gladly do his best to work it; but he looked forward with the gravest apprehension to working a denominational, system, in that way. It might work well in Wales. The number of denominational institutions was considerable; and if the policy of subsidising one religious body were adopted, the claims of other religious bodies would be irresistible. He could conceive no worse fate for education than that. He would not discuss the larger question as to how far undenominational education was hostile to religion. The question did not arise in Wales, because, whatever else might be said of that country, it could not be denied that it was predominantly religious; and no such trouble as was apprehended by hon. Gentlemen opposite would occur there. To abolish bodies with such a record, and which, not merely by the members who composed them, but by the manner in which they were constituted, were admirably suited for educational work would, he thought, be a very great mistake. He would conclude with an appeal to the Prime Minister. They all recognised the right hon. Gentleman's courtesy, and the manner in which he had conducted the debates on the Bill. They had had a few differences of opinion, which, however, did not interfere with their mutual respect. He was quite certain that the right hon. Gentleman did not desire to cause more friction or more trouble, or more administrative inconvenience than was absolutely necessary, and he therefore appealed to his hon. friend the Chairman of the Welsh Party, to whom he was sorry to find himself in opposition, to allow the withdrawal of the Amendment, and to the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw his acceptance of it. The withdrawal of the Amendment would still leave the County Councils with the fullest control of the county governing bodies. If a County Council felt that a county governing body was not capable of carrying out the additional work would be imposed on it under the Bill, they had only to go to the Board of Education; and if, on the other hand, the Council were satisfied that the county governing body could administer elementary as well as secondary education, then the Bill would operate in the way that it now proposed. He would appeal to his hon. friend and to the right hon. Gentleman to allow the Amendment to be withdrawn.

said he need hardly state that any observations with regard to Welsh education, and to the system now in existence for some years, which were made by his hon. friend the Member for Montgomery, would be listened to with the utmost respect by hon. Members on that side of the House, and, he believed, by hon. Gentlemen opposite also. His hon. friend had, since the Central Board was set up under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, ably presided over it; and the recent Report which was published showed what admirable strides had been made in regard to secondary and higher education in Wales during the last few years. But he thought his hon. friend was hardly justified in some of the observations which he had made with regard to the Amendment. The matter was not free from complexity and difficulty, and he admitted that it was only with reluctance that he would support the Amendment of his hon. friend the Member for East Glamorgan. As the matter was one of some complexity, he might be allowed to ask the Attorney General whether the construction he would put on sub-Section 6 as it stood, and upon its effect, was or was not correct. The sub-Section stated that in Wales and Monmouthshire any county governing body constituted under a scheme made in pursuance of the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889, should be the education committee, under the Act, of the Council of the County or County Borough, unless any other scheme was proposed by the Council. Therefore, if the sub-Section were allowed to stand there would be two alternatives. One was that the county governing body became automatically the education committee under the Act. These bodies were made under the Act of 1889 conjointly with the Endowed Schools Act of 1869, and they dealt not simply with the rate that the County Councils were empowered to levy under the Act of 1889, but with schemes in reference to endowed schools and also considerable property under an arrangement with the Charity Commissioners. All these schemes went through the proceedings involved by the Endowed Schools Act; and had virtually the force of statutes. These county governing bodies were arranged not for elementary education but for secondary education. They were bodies which were not adapted to deal with the work which the education committees under this Bill would have to do. As he understood the effect of Clause 12 and the preceding Clauses of the Bill, the education committees would be practically doing the work which the School Board did at the present time. They would did at the present time. They would have to appoint the teachers, and in South Wales and Monmouthshire there were no fewer than 2,591 teachers in elementary schools who objected to be placed under the control of the county governing body. So much for the first alternative. He did not doubt that the county governing bodies would do their duty to elementary education, as they had done it to secondary education, but if he was asked whether they would do the work the School Boards were doing now, his answer would be in the negative. The other alternative was that if "any other scheme" was proposed by the county governing body—that was a scheme under this Bill—there would be a new education committee, which would deal not only with elementary but also with higher or secondary education. Thus there would be a double authority. Therefore Wales was placed in a dilemma. His original view was that it would be better to leave out sub-Section 6, but there were grave objections to taking that course, and he thought the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Glamorgan would be the best course to pursue, in order to preserve the Welsh system.

said he was happy to think there was no very great difference of opinion between hon. Members on this question. The Prime Minister had tried to meet the wishes of hon. Gentlemen opposite, and the course he proposed would obviate any difficulty that might arise under the sub-Section as it now stood. It was said the sub-Section should be deleted altogether. He did not think there was much to choose between the two courses, but whichever was adopted, it should go forth that it was not adopted from any feeling that the county governing bodies should cease to exist by reason of their failure to do the work which had been entrusted to them. There could be but one opinion as to those bodies which had done their work admirably. That statement might not commend itself to the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich, whose appreciation of the Celtic fringe was not Ins strong point, but, with the exception of the noble Lord, there was no person who could say that, from first to last, these county governing bodies had not devoted themselves entirely to the improvement of education. He hoped in the future that would be put to their credit, and that whatever happened many members of these bodies might become members of the new bodies to be created by this Bill.

said several reasons had been advanced in favour of this Amendment. First of all, it was said that there would be a double authority, and secondly, that these authorities would have to do the work of the present School Boards. He did not think there would be a divided authority, neither did he anticipate—there would be any difficulty in the county governing-bodies discharging the duties of the School Boards, because by Section 15, the education committee had power to delegate to district or parish councils or other local bodies, the duties which it would have to discharge under this Bill. He saw no difficulty in the way of the county governing bodies of Wales discharging their duties under this Bill, and therefore he hoped his hon. friend would see his way to withdrawing his Amendment. No one who had any knowledge at all of the constitution and work of the county governing bodies could wish to see them destroyed, but if another body under this Bill was introduced into Wales and the county governing bodies were eliminated, an element would be introduced which would be altogether different from the Act of 1889. He thought if this Amendment were accepted, it would be contrary to the opinion of the great majority of the people of Wales, and that it would introduce into the Councils those denominational elements which would be very irritating to the people of the Principality. It was suggested that under the Amendment the County Councils would have the selection of the new bodies, but nothing in sub-Section (6) deprived the Welsh County Councils of the powers conferred on English County Councils by the Bill. The county governing authorities were only to be the education committees in the event of the County Councils not deciding otherwise, so that if the County Councils chose they could at once exercise all the powers and duties given under this Clause, so that the Amendment was comparatively valueless. If this Amendment were carried, and the Act of 1889 was permitted to remain in force, he did not know but what there might be two bodies in conflict. They knew exactly where they were with the county governing-bodies, but they did not know where they would be under the Bill. Upon the education committee were to be persons nominated by bodies which were not defined, but which might be denominational, whereas there were no representatives of purely religious bodies on the county governing bodies in Wales. Those authorities had done excellent work for ten or twelve years; people of all shades of political and religious opinion acknowledged that the present arrangement had worked harmoniously, and it would be a great pity to abolish bodies which had done such excellent work.

appealed to his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment. At first he was enamoured of the proposal to have one authority, but on further consideration he was convinced of its dangers. The present system had worked exceedingly well. He did not say there had never been criticism on the constitution of any of the county governing bodies, but there was certainly no strong body of opinion at all hostile to them or to the way in which they had administered the Welsh intermediate Education Act. Under this proposal they were not exchanging one animal tested and examined for another similarly tested and examined; they were exchanging one tested for a pig in a poke, and as yet they did not know what shape the creature would eventually assume. If the scheme was to be framed primarily by the County Council, he would be disposed to accept it, but it was to be approved by the Education Department, and if the Department disagreed with the County Council, it was to be framed exclusively by the Department. It would be better not to make such a vast experiment so suddenly. Further, the schemes for the carrying out of the Act would be subject to the education committee, and in the last resort to the control of the County Council. That was a great safeguard so far as elementary education was concerned, because, even if a bad scheme were adopted and unsuitable persons pitch-forked on to the committee, that committee would be subject, in regard to matters of elementary education, to revision and control in every respect by the County Council. But the action of that same committee would not be subject so far as the Intermediate Education Act of 1889 was concerned. That point had been completely overlooked. They were not so much afraid of the proposal as affecting elementary education, because they had confidence in their County Councils, but to make the Education Committee supreme in the other matters would be going much too hurriedly, and he therefore asked his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment so that the matter might be further considered.

said that since the discussion on the early part of the Clause he had taken the opinion of those most qualified to speak on matters of municipal and county government with respect to the effect of the provision that questions should "stand referred" to the education committee, and they confirmed his contention that the words would deprive the municipal or county authority of the power of dealing with any educational question except through the education committee. If a member gave notice of a desire to raise some broad question of educational policy, such as that insufficient attention was given to manual training in the schools, the words "stand referred" would compel the chairman of the authority to rule the resolution out of order. There would be nothing to compel the education committee to present a report upon such a question as that. With the words "stand referred" in the Clause the authority had no power at all, for it could only act by means of its education committee, and any group of ratepayers could not have direct access to the ear of the supreme authority. He thought the Attorney General might give further consideration to that matter and bring up some modification of the phrase, so that the authority should be supreme and not handicapped in that way. Then there was the question of nomination where it appeared desirable. In the composition of Technical Instruction Committees that plan had been tried and failed. There was no possibility of drawing any reasonable line as to what bodies should have a right of nominating. When the Chamber of Commerce claimed the right to nominate a member, the Labour Trades Council would also claim a similar right, and the thing would grow, to such an extent that every local body would demand a representative, and the Council would be compelled to say that they would not appoint anybody except individuals qualified for the work, and refuse to have any outside nominations. This system of nomination had been tried and failed.

said that before they parted from Clause 12 he wished to make an appeal to the Government to alter its present shape before they came to the Report stage. If this Bill passed, he was sure that everybody would desire that it should he made workable. Setting aside the general principles for which they had contended, it was, in his opinion, impossible that the constitution of the committee of the County Councils could work if the provision stood as it remained at present. These County Councils would be called upon to form their schemes for their own committees, which would be the executive body of the County Council. They would form their scheme, and no doubt they would form it in accordance with their own judgment and the wishes of their constituencies, and they would have the right and power under their own scheme to carry out their own work according to their own view. That would be the natural condition of things. But what was to become of this scheme when it was formed? It was to he sent to an outside body, namely, the Education Department in Whitehall, for review and to obtain their consent; and what was this body going to do with the scheme of the County Council? Under the Bill they were to have an inquiry. The Council would nominate such persons as they thought desirable. But the Council might not desire to appoint. In this case there must be a conflict between the two bodies. They started with a dual authority. They had heard a good deal about a single authority, but the moment this Council met, it made its scheme and another authority was brought in to revise. They had totally changed the character of that body. Let them consider how the thing worked, because really this was a question as to whether or not this scheme was going to be workable. They started by inviting the County Council to appoint its own committee. It would form its scheme and then it would be subject to revision and possibly to the overruling of another authority in respect to its constitution. If it appeared desirable to the Board of Education they would settle whom the rest of the committee was to consist of. He could not help saying again that this would be a great indignity to the Council, and they were starting their plan in a shape which was absolutely unworkable. No County Council would accept a scheme of that character. What was going to happen to their scheme? The words were that the Board of Education "may" have an inquiry. An inquiry for whom? What character was that inquiry to be? Was anybody to be able to come before the inquiry and say, "I have a right to be on the committee of the County Council?" This Inquiry was to be initiated not by the County Council, but by the Board of Education, and yet it was to overrule the County Council. They had entrusted technical instruction to the County Council, and they had not in the past imposed upon them conditions of that character, hut judgment. They were to have co-optation at the option of the County Council, but who was going to judge as to who were to he co-opted? It was quite plain under this Clause that it was not County Council who would have the power of co-opting outside members. They would have a number of competing sects coming forward, all claiming to he upon the committee under the scheme, and the Board of Education would have to hold an inquiry into the matter. It would then, as he understood, be for the Education Department to amend the scheme, or to insist on the scheme being altered by the County Council according to their view of the various bodies claiming to be put on the committee. He ventured to urge upon the Government that before the Bill became law they should alter this condition of things, for he was perfectly certain that if the Board of Education forced on to the committee denominational representatives who were not desired by the local education authority, they would embroil the authority in religious difficulties at the very starting point. If the First Lord would tell the Committee that he did not mean that an outside authority should insist upon putting denominational representatives on this committee whether the County Council desired them or not, the objection he had made would be removed to a certain degree, but so sure as an outside authority attempted to put denominational representatives on the committee without the consent of the Council so surely would they cause a conflict at once and make the carrying out of the scheme impossible. There were many members of the County Councils who were not favourable to undertaking this work at all. On the 5th of November this year the Right Hon. Lord Tredegar was in the Chair at a meeting of the County Council of Monmouth, when, by a large majority, a motion with reference to this Bill was carried, the concluding words being "that they respectfully inform the Government that if passed in its present shape, this Council cannot be responsible for its administration." Surely it was of interest to disarm this hostility so far as they could on the part of the County Councils. If this Bill were presented to them in a shape which practically took away from them the authority they were in the habit w exercising in the selection of their own committees, and if they were exposed to having their schemes overruled, they would not be very willing to undertake the work proposed to be imposed upon them by the Bill. He read sub-Section (b) as con erring a power to impose on them that which they had not chosen, they did not wish, and that which they would be very likely to resist. What would be the situation then of the education authority? There was no secret about it. What this meant was that denominational people were to be put on the committee, possibly against the wish of a Council which was not denominational. That was a most dangerous thing, and it was a thing which would make the Bill unworkable. He hoped that before the Clause came up again on Report the Government would reconsider the matter. There was one other point he should like to refer to, and that was the way in which the Council were placed with regard to their authority, which the Government said was supreme. In this it would be very well if the Government thought fit to make some modification. The Clause provided that the County Council, which was the supreme authority, should not exercise any of the powers it possessed until it had consulted this Committee, except in cases of urgency. That was limiting the authority of the Council. Why was the Council not to have the power this House had of instructing its Committees? They should have power to instruct the committee in the general principles on which they desired the committee to act, leaving the details to the committee If the Councils were to be supreme, how could Parliament say that they were not to have authority to instruct their committees? It seemed to him that in this Clause they were cribbing and confining the Council to a degree which would destroy their authority and deprive them of the representative character which was claimed for them. The real representative authority should do the work which was confided to them. He believed the Government would make the Bill a great deal more workable if they took the shackles off the County Council which the Bill in its present shape imposed on them. That would do a great deal to remove the difficulties and objections which were strongly felt to the Bill. Above all, he implored the Government not to throw out this apple of religious discord at the beginning of the proceedings by imposing denominational nominees on the education committee.

I feel that it is due to the right hon. Gentleman to say a few words in answer to the speech he has made, and I will make these words as few as possible, partly because we have really discussed in Committee all the points he has raised in the speech we have just heard, and also because I think there are gentlemen in the House who are anxious to pass on to the consideration of the next Clause. I, of course, echo the wish with which the right hon. Gentleman concluded his speech. With him I earnestly deprecate the intrusion of religious controversy in these questions of education. I have kept them out as much as I can, but it cannot be done completely, I am afraid. I really do think, though I am not over sanguine, that if this Bill is given a fair chance it will be found by everybody, whatever the prevailing colour of his religious opinion, to work without any undue friction, or causing any undue religious bitterness. The right hon. Gentleman had a right to suppose that everybody concerned in this matter would be as unreasonable as possible. I agree that it is legitimate to put forward an extreme case. Let the Committee remember that it is an extreme case which the right hon. Gentleman has put forward. He supposed that the education authority would go to loggerheads with the Education Department; that they would send up scheme after scheme to the Education Department for approval, and that the Education Department would time after time refuse that approval until the machinery of a Provisional Order was called in, and the assent of this House was asked to a scheme not proposed by the education authority but initiated from Whitehall. I do not think that will happen. That is an extreme, and, I venture to say, an extravagant case; but even if we do assume it, remember that this Clause, in its present form, makes it perfectly clear that however recalcitrant the education committee may be it is the education authority that will be supreme. Suppose that it did happen that a scheme was forced on them unwillingly by the House of Commons; the County Council are supreme. They may not listen to the advice of the education committee; they need not take their counsel; they are the judges of whether a case is one of urgency and whether the education committee are to be permitted to deal with it at the beginning. In these circumstances it does seem to me that the supremacy of the popularly elected body is absolutely secured by the Bill in its present form, and I trust when that is realised more completely than now, in those districts of the country where this Bill is looked upon with the greatest hostility, they will feel that popular control in its full sense is a great reality, and that they will endeavour, as Englishmen usually do endeavour, to make the best of the scheme, even if it is not the scheme which they themselves would desire.

May I ask one question? Would it not be in the power of the County Council to constitute the committee entirely from its own members to carry out their own work, without any other persons being foisted upon them? That, I think, would be a fair test of their supremacy.

No, Sir, they would not, because a friend of the right hon. Gentleman put in a sub-Section which makes it absolutely obligatory that we should not rely upon the casual charity of County Councils, but should insist that one woman should be on the committee.

I except the woman. Apart from that, might they appoint a committee exclusively of their own members?

Barring the woman! That seems to me to be rather a large exception. No doubt they could send to the Education Department a scheme which included only members of the County Council.

Could they insist?

Of course they would not; I do not think that they would ever do it. [OPOSITION cries of "Look at sub-Section (b)"] If the Committee asks me whether that is a very desirable plan, I should not be prepared to say, and what view the Education Department would take of it, I cannot, of course, say; but in that respect I think the matter is perfectly clear. I hope I will not be considered to have treated the right hon. Gentleman with scant courtesy. I have given a sufficient reply for the moment, considering the occasion, and I hope the Committee will consent to embody the scheme, as amended, in this Bill.

said he would point out a matter which was of the greatest importance—viz., that sub-Section (b) was imperative. It said that every—

"such scheme would provide…for the appointment by the Coup on the nomination, where it appears desirable, of other bodies, of persons of experience in education, and of persons acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools in the area for which the Council acts."

These words seemed to impose on the Board of Education that in making a scheme in accordance with the requirements of the Bill the committee must contain persons appointed by the local body. He must remark, in regard to what the right hon. Gentleman had said, that he did not think any difficulty would incur, that the right hon. Gentleman should remember that in these schemes the last word was with the Board of Education. It was they that were to decide. It was all very well for the County Council to make suggestions, but the Board of Education could overrule. There were some important parts of this Clause which had never been discussed at all. One of these was the provision for the creation of "other bodies, of persons experienced in education, and of persons acquainted with the needs of various kinds of schools in the area for which the Council acts." Now, that proposal was justified on the ground that experts were wanted on these committees; but there were good experts mid bad experts. The worst kind of expert, however, was the expert who had an axe to grind, and that kind of expert seemed to be contemplated by this Clause. What they gathered from the attitude of the Government that day, was that persons were to be put on the committee to represent particular interests of their own. Could any simpler method be employed of importing dissensions into these bodies than that persons were to be appointed on them, not to promote a common object, but a particular object which he was sent to promote? The County Councils had many faults, but they had one merit, that the members were elected on general considerations because they were the men who commended themselves to their fellow-citizens. That was a principle which this Clause denied and over-ruled, and on that ground alone the Committee should object to it. There was another part of the Clause which had passed without discussion, and that was the provision for passing a scheme by means of a Provisional Order. He thought that that method was eminently unsuited to the case. Still more important was the provision of sub-Section 3, which directed that any scheme might provide for the constitution of separate education committees for any area within a county. Now, that was a provision which would he largely taken advantage of, but how would it work? The right hon. Gentleman took refuge in the argument that the deciding voice would rest with the County Council and not with the local committees. Take the case of Devonshire. Any one who knew that county must be aware that it would be quite impossible for the County Council at Exeter to exercise a direct and constant supervision over the whole of that county. He apprehended that the County Council would appoint a local committee for the north-west district Okehampton, for the south-east district another committee at Bampton, and for the south-west district still another committee at Kings-wear or Dartmouth. How would that work in with the system which the right hon. Gentleman contemplated under this Clause? They could not find a sufficient number of county councillors to constitute a majority on these local committees, and the consequence would be that the County Councils would practically have to devolve on these local committees the great bulk of its work, and that work would be very heavy. It would be impossible for the County Council at Exeter to keep abreast with what was being done by these local committees, to nave that knowledge of their proceeding, or of the local requirements of the separate areas which would enable them to deal with all the questions constantly arising. The consequence would be that the County Council would be obliged to ratify the decisions of the local committees, and that these local committees would do the work which, in the view of the right hon. Gentleman, the County Council was set to do. He felt that if they tried to body forth the actual working of the system proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, it would he found that it must be entirely different from that which was in the too sanguine mind of the right hon. Gentleman. He felt very strongly that if the Committee had been able to discuss this subsequent Clause relating to the local committees they would have introduced most valuable and important Amendments into it. They had, however, lost that opportunity. Wherever they had had the opportunity of discussion they had succeeded in transforming a Clause, or of bringing in a new Clause altogether, which, by the common consent of the Committee, was a great deal better than the original Clause. They would be deprived of that opportunity now, and in the future, and therefore he parted with this Clause not, he was afraid, in a very sanguine spirit. He parted with it with a sense of the imperfection which the Bill would have if it did not receive that thorough, complete, and searching investigation in Committee which its importance required. He believed that from time to time they should have more and more occasion to regret that proper time had not been given for the discussion of this crude and imperfect measure.

pointed out that, though the County Council would have a very large amount of new work placed upon them under this Bill, there was no provision of money for that purpose. They were now called upon to deal with evening schools and the education of teachers, and no provision had been made for that. It would be impossible in his opinion to carry out these duties unless there was money provided. He also suggested the desirability of the local education authority having power under the Charitable Trusts Act, with regard to, the submission of schemes.

did not think that the Prime Minister or the Committee could complain of the short discussion on this Clause. It was the turning point of the whole Bill, and if the Clause was not workable the Bill would hot be workable. No doubt the intention of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister was that under this Clause the .new education authority, should be supreme, and if that was the real state of things no, one would be dissatisfied but nothing of that kind was provided in the Clause. As the Clause now stood, the position was this, that the education, committee was a committee which had been created for the first time, and for yfIrch0ere no precedent. There were all kinds of, committees under our system of local government, the powers, of which ranged from something very nominal and advisory to practical in dependence, in relation to the authorities out of which they were carved. There was nothing in this Clause to say in what position this Committee stood, yet this was the machine that was to work the Bill. There was nothing to show how the machinery was to work. It was impossible to show where there was any control over these committees except in, the power to raise a rate. It had been said that the power of spending money would remain with the County Council, but that did not appear to be so in this Clause. The local education authorities could not delegate the power of making a rate or raising money, but there was nothing in the Clause which vested the spending power entirely in them. The education committee could still spend the money and call upon the County Council to raise a rate for the purpose of paying it. He challenged the Attorney General to point out where there was any indication at all of any power over these committees. There was no doubt that the Bill, when drafted, contemplated very much greater power being given to these committees, than it was now suggested they should possess. It was intended that the drafting should be so vague as to enable these committees to have the great power that it was desired they should have, but the opinion of the Government had been changed owing to the pressure put upon them. They had an instance of how these committees were going to work, because an Amendment had been moved which provided that these education committees should stand upon the same basis as all other County Council Committees, but the Government refused to accept it. If a pledge had been given that they should not be able to spend money, where was the difficulty in accepting that Amendment? The right hon. Gentleman had expressed his opinion that something of the kind ought to be done, but he said it ought to be done in the schedules. The-right hon. Gentleman was asked to pledge himself that it should be done in the schedules, but he declined, to do so. That alone should make the House pause before accepting the Clause as it stood, and if they accepted it they should consider it very seriously before they came to the Report stage. As to the constitution of the, committee, the plan of the Government was not co-optation. It simply forced the County Council to go outside their own body in order to get people to administer the Act as members of the education committee. He contended that the "other bodies" intended in this Clause were the diocesan as sociations. In the event of a County Council refusing to alter a scheme, in accordance with the directions of the Education Department, recourse would be had to a Provisional Order, so that by this procedure the last word would not be with the Department, as they had been told it would be, but with the House of Lords. By this means might be enforced against the wish of the local authority, giving rise to constant friction undesirable in the interests of education.

made an appeal to the Committee that the debate upon this Clause should be reduced into the narrowest compass, in order that the Committee might get to Clause on which he understood many hon. Members desired to speak.

said it was inherent in the constitution of a Committee of a local governing authority that it had power to appoint sub-committees; the education committee, therefore, would have that power. Many County Councils would find it would be infinitely more convenient to appoint one education committee than a number of such committees.

They can do that under this Bill.

asked whether that being so, it was in the power of an education committee to co-opt for the sub-committees. The amount of extra work thrown on County Councils by this Bill was very large, and would be found to be irksome unless they were allowed to bring to the service of the sub-committees, through the power of co-optation, all the local experience and local goodwill possible.

asked the Secretary to the Board of Education, assuming that the Clause would give the Education Department the power to insist on the representation of diocesan or other bodies, what policy the Department proposed to pursue? The hon. Gentleman was after all, the gentleman who would have to see to the working of this Measure, and, that being so, be (Mr. Robertson) would like to know what he intended to do. Had he considered this question? Would the Department force sectarian representation, or would they leave a Council a free hand?

said the Committee had been informed by the Prime Minister that the School Board system was, so far as the authority was concerned, a very complicated system. The right hon. Gentleman had referred in strong language to the absurdity of the Cumulative Vote, and he had claimed for this Bill a simpler form of administration. By the present proposals there would be more circumlocution and more processes to go through before the authority was constituted than had ever been connected with the School Board system. He could not but believe that there was some other ground for the Government proposing so difficult a plan than the simple question of the administration of education as a whole. There was not that motive power in the Clause which would enable education to be carried on in the future so well as in the past. A process of filtration through all these bodies was to go on, with the result, he feared, that no one would be responsible for efficient education in any school area in the country. Up to the present the School Boards had been so responsible, and because there had been a great motive power at the back of their working—pride in the knowledge of the subject and the determination to make their schools the glory of the district—they had erected a standard of education which had been the admiration of the world. Where, under this Clause, was there any motive power to cause such a condition of things to continue? The Government appeared to have mistaken altogether the purpose of the Bill in this Clause. What was required was a greater motive power than before—in fact, an inspiration on the part of some to raise the quality of our education—at any rate to a standard equal to that prevailing in many other countries. While the Committee were speaking so much about provisos and checks they were whittling away the only force now existing—the sense of responsibility and the knowledge of the subject—and constituting a local education authority which would be a myth or shadow, having no power over its committee when constituted, nor that motive force which would enable it to do its work well. He was unable to conceive why the Government, from an administrative point of view, should have so complicated the constitution of the authority. In the Netherlands the system was simplicity itself. They had there the same vexed question as here; the denominational feeling was very strong; but the law provided that schools should be found for all the children without distinction, and the whole of the system was carried out by the mayor of the town, an alderman of the Council, two or three councillors and a secretary. That was the whole administrative authority, and at its discretion it could constitute sub-committees and delegate to them certain powers with regard to details. He should despair of ever arriving at that state of things under this Bill; there would be no motive force at the back of education, and on these administrative grounds he strongly protested against the Clause.

asked, supposing provision was made in each county in Wales, on the nomination of the representatives upon the joint body, for the purpose of supervising primary education throughout the whole of Wales, whether that would come within sub-Section (3). Could the provisions of the Central Board be extended for primary education under that sub-Section, and representation upon that body provided for?

That would be possible under sub-Section (3).

then pointed out that, with regard to the county governing bodies now to be abolished, there was a provision for the representation of School Boards, and he asked how the School Boards as constituent bodies would be represented now the School Boards were to be abolished? On the advisory body there would be, say, twenty-seven members, of whom fourteen would be appointed by the County Council, who would represent the School Boards or the provided schools in nominating their quota of the remaining Board members Provision was made for the representation of the voluntary schools. But voluntary schools were in a minority in Wales, and was provision to be made for the representation of the minority while none was made for that of the majority?

was understood to say that the local education authority would have to make provision for the representation of persons interested in the education of the children within the area. They would choose their own method, and if the School Board managers thought it was not the best that could be suggested they would make their suggestion, first to the local authority, and then, if necessary, to the Board of Education, who would bring the matter back to the local authority and ask them to reconsider their decision.

said that was rather important. He wanted to know the view of the hon. Gentleman because powers of legislation were being entrusted to him with regard to these schemes. Would the representatives of the local authority he regarded in the future as the representatives of the provided schools, because if so, popular representation was being cut down in favour of the denominational schools. As he understood the hon. Gentleman, in addition to the representatives of the local authority, he would insist on the provided schools being represented—

I must not be understood as saying I would insist on anything.

said that was just the difficulty. The Committee were passing a clause without knowing exactly what was in the mind of the hon. Gentleman. The representation of the voluntary schools was to be insisted on, and the Committee were entitled to know whether the hon. Gentleman would insist also on the representation of the provided schools. Then there was the question of proportion. Was it the intention to swamp the county authorities with representatives of the sectarian schools? What was the notion of the Government with regard to the respective proportions? As the education committee had been converted into a committee of the County Council it was essential for the success of any scheme that there should be confidence between the committee and the body to which it had to report.

said if it was to he understood that the Board of Education must have the final voice in the constitution of the scheme appointing the Education Committee instead of the County Council, then in that case under heading (b) of sub-Section 2, if the Government would consent to alter the words they would thereby very materially lessen the opposition to this Clause. He asked the Government to consider whether, on the Report Stage, they could not rearrange the words to read—

"For the appointment by the Council, where it appears to it desirable, on the nomination of other bodies."

That would give to the Council the right to decide how far it was necessary to go outside its own body to secure a fair and real representation of those interests which it I was the object of the Government to include. He would refer to the statement just made by the Prime Minister that a scheme might be presented by a local authority almost entirely composed of members of the County Council, and this, if representative of other bodies, might be approved by the Board of Education, so he would ask that the words, "Appointment by the Council of at least a majority of the committee," should be so amended as to convey clearly that the County Councils might exercise their own discretion and choose how many co-opted members it should have. Take the Lancashire County Council, which had over 100 members. There the Technical Instruction Committee had worked well together in the past. They had on the committee the Ven. Archdeacon of Blackburn and also a well-known parish clergyman who was Chairman of the Agricultural Committee. Where they could secure a bonâ fide representation of that sort of sectarian interests from amongst themselves, it was well that the authority should have the power to do so. On the Lancashire County Council they had gentlemen elected by the people from various walks of life, many of them with university degrees, and yet occupied in commerce. They had representatives who were members of the Church of England, and others who were Nonconformists, as well as Roman Catholics, working side by side, and so all the interests they desired to consider in the working out of the education scheme were represented. He appealed to the Government to say that on the Report Stage they would clear away this difficulty. If the Government would recognise the strong feeling both inside and outside of the House to give the local authority the right and power to determine who should serve on their own Education Committee and alter the Clause by introducing the words "to it desirable," he thought they would be doing a great deal to ensure the successful working of the Clause.

said he was sorry to add anything to the length of the debate. Appeals had been made to him by hon. Members on the other side upon a matter to which it was practically impossible for him to give an answer, namely, the policy of the Board of Education in respect of these schemes. He read this Clause to mean that the object of the scheme was, that all the educational interests of the area should be represented. Sub-Clause (b) required that two sorts of persons should be on the committee representing education, one class being "persons of experience in education" and the other "persons acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools in the area for which the Council acts." It was possible that the Council might contain such persons within its own body. If it did not they might be provided from elsewhere and selected by the Council, or they could be appointed upon the nomination of other bodies. He had been asked what would the Board of Education do if the Council did not put on a proper proportion of representatives of various educational interests. His view was the Board of Education should act by way of suggestion rather than of constraint, but there was no doubt that the Bill gave power to act to the Board of Education, and if such action was called for the Board would have to deal with each case according to the circumstances attending it.

said that in the framing of these schemes it appeared to have been overlooked that there would be two education authorities in many counties, side by side, namely, that of the county and that of the non county boroughs of over 10,000 population, and urban districts with a population of over 20,000 Under this proposal there would be no representation of the county authority, and they would have two education authorities dealing with education, within the area of the county. Instead of taking care that experts and sectarians should have been represented, the Government should have taken care that the education authority of the non-county boroughs and the county boroughs should have had interchangeable members. In Lancashire there were no less than thirty non-county boroughs of over 10,000 inhabitants, and urban districts of over 20,000. Consequently there would be an education authority representing the County Councils, and thirty different authorities representing non-county boroughs and urban districts. Absolutely no provision was made to prevent the very evil which they were told this Bill was designed to put and end to. Surely the Government could not be really proposing that this Clause should leave the Committee in this form without any assurance that they intended to alter this state of things. Nobody who had studied the Bill could have the slightest doubt that this Clause, as it stood, would be productive of the most hopeless confusion. Even in the county of Cornwall there were some ten or eleven subsidiary education authorities, all acting through independent committees, and no single

said he wished to remind the Committee that perhaps the most important provision which ought to be made in this Claues was the co-ordination of elementary and secondary education. The Secretary to the Board of Education put down on the Paper an Amendment to the effect that the Board of Education were not to give their consent to a scheme unless they were satisfied that due regard had been had to the importance of co-ordinating elementary and secondary education. So far as it Vent that was sufficient to meet what could be done in this Clause, but owing to the operation of the Closure the hon. Member did not move his own Amendment. He desired to ask the hon. Gentleman whether between now and the Report stage he could see his way to devise some plan which would give more elasticity to the Clause in this respect. Since by an unfortunate accident that agreement had not been given effect to in this Clause, he thought he might hold himself free to ask that before the Report stage of the Bill was reached the Government would consider whether some form of words could be adopted which would make sure that co-ordination would be carried out.