To ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that the recommendation of the Tweedmouth Commission, that officers employed on split duties should have nine clear hours in their own homes, has not yet been made generally effective in the Dublin Sorting Office; and whether he will consider the entire abolition of split duties. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I am aware that it has not hitherto been practicable for the whole of the sorting staff in Dublin to have an interval of nine clear hours in their own homes; but arrangements are in progress which, under ordinary circumstances, will, I hope, provide such an interval in all cases. The work necessitates two attendances in the day for the great majority of the officers, and no alteration in this respect can be made.

To ask the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that in the Dublin Sorting Office this year officers called on to perform extra duty had in many cases to give a triple attendance commencing at 5 a.m. and ending at 8 p.m.; whether with such attendances there were many instances of men being sent off duty receiving as remuneration for a day's work extending over 15 hours only 1 hour 30 minutes overtime, and that officers were called on to perform such duties on an average three times a week; and will he take steps to remedy the matter. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I am aware that it has been necessary for the staff in the sorting office to give an additional, or third, attendance in certain emergencies; and in every case extra duty has been paid for in accordance with the regulations. Under the arrangements already mentioned it is hoped that a third attendance will be but seldom needed.

To ask the Postmaster General if he will state in the case of the Dublin General Post Office, which did not come within the scope of the corporation sanitary authorities, who was the recognised sanitary authority. (Answered by M. Austen Chamberlain.) The Department has its own medical officer in Dublin, who would be consulted on any question as to the sanitary condition of the General Post Office buildings.

To ask the Postmaster General whether telegraph money orders are accepted by the Post Office containing instructions with reference to the making of bets; and whether the Postmaster General will take steps to prevent the telegraph service being used for gambling transactions. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) Under the regulations relating to telegraph money orders the sender of an order by telegraph is allowed to have a private message added to the official telegram of advice. This private message takes the place of the separate telegram which the sender would otherwise have to forward, and it is sent in accordance with the ordinary rules regulating the transmission of telegrams. I am not able to discriminate between betting telegrams and other telegrams.

To ask the Postmaster General whether, seeing that telegraph clerks are subject to dismissal if it is discovered that they indulge in betting transactions, he will take steps to provide that telegraph clerks in receipt of 12s. per week to 30s. per week shall not be engaged in the transmission of telegrams containing sporting intelligence. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) It would be quite impracticable to carry out the hon. Member's suggestion.

To ask the Lord Advocate if he will state the name of the Local Government Board's inspecting officer who visited the Island of Lewis for the purpose of inquiring into questions affecting the public health what places he visited; and how many days, if any, he spent in the country districts, and how many in Stornoway. (Answered by Mr. Graham Murray.) Mr. Millar, the Board's general superintendent of poor, and inspecting officer under the Public Health Act, arrived in Stornoway on the 20th May, and left for Harris on the 26th May. During the four working days of his presence in the Lews, he inspected the Poor Law administration of the parishes of Stornoway, Barvas, Lochs, and Uig; had interviews with the sanitary inspector and chief magistrate of Stornoway; and conferred with the medical officer of health, sanitary inspector, and officer of Naval Reserve on the subject of overcrowding. The 25th was Sunday. The distance driven in the course of Mr. Millar's visit to the Lews was about eighty miles.

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether water-tube boilers exclusively, or a combination of cylindrical and water-tube boilers, is to be fitted into the new 25-knot vessels for the Cunard Company, or are the boilers to be of the cylindrical type alone. (Answered by Hr. Arnold-Forster.) The Admiralty have made no stipulation as to the type of boiler to be fitted in these vessels, and they have at present no information as to the type decided upon by the company.

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can inform the House when the Reports of the various Committees on manning, reserves, the settlement of the engineer officer question, and as to the age of senior officers in command, may be expected. (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) It is hoped that the Reports of the Committees appointed to deal with the question of manning and reserves, and with the system of promotion and retirement of officers, respectively, will be in the possession of the Admiralty before the end of the present year.

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, what is the nature of the inquiry into the health of Cornish miners which is now being conducted on behalf of the Home Office; when is the inquiry likely to be completed; arid will the report of the inquiry be made public. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers Douglas.) The inquiry is being made by Dr. John Haldane, F.R.S., whose work in connection with mines is already well known. He will have the co-operation of Mr. Martin, His Majesty's Inspector of Mines, and such medical and scientific assistance as he may from time to time require. Dr. Haldane is now actively carrying on the inquiry, but it is impossible at present to say when it will be completed. I see no reason to doubt that the result of the inquiry will be published, though of course I cannot give any pledge on the subject at the present moment.

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that there has been a sum of about £10,000 lying without interest at the Bank of England to the credit of the Scinde, Punjab, and Delhi Railway Company for the last twenty-one years; that in 1880 this undertaking was vested in the Government of India; that Section 54 of the Act provided for the eventual dissolution of the Company; that this Clause has been inoperative, the last surviving director having died; and that this deposit represents sums distributable, under Section 53 of the Act, between stockholders of the Company to parties who cannot be traced; and will be, therefore, to prevent this money becoming the property of the Bank of England by this failure of claimants, introduce a Bill causing this money to be paid over to the Paymaster General. (Answered by Ritchie.) I can add nothing to the answer given by my predecessor to a similar question addressed to him by the hon. Member on 13th March last†

To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education what, under the Education Bill, will be the status of those organisers appointed by the present School Board who control manual training, cookery, and laundry work, as well as those chosen to deal with kindred subjects. (Answered by Sir Brilliant Anson.) Organising teachers employed by a School Board are officers of the Board within the meaning of rules (7), (8), and (9) of Schedule II. of the Bill. Their status will, therefore, be governed by those rules.

To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state the amount to be drawn from India during the present financial year for the home charges disbursed

† (4) Debates, civ., 1268.

in this country, as compared with Rx.24,136,800 in the year 1898–9; the amount to be paid here by India in the present year under the head of military pensions and furlough charges, also civil and marine, as compared with Budget amounts for 1899–1900 Rx.7,138,600; the amount of the India Office salaries and establishment for this year as compared with the Rx.246,000 in the

To ask the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the fact that, under the International Scheme of North Sea Fisheries Investigation, Great Britain proposes to expend a sum of £42,000 during the next three years, inclusive of a sum of £1,250, this country's contribution for the maintenance of the central organisation at Copenhagen, will he state what sum

To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has yet received the full text of the New Liquor Regulations for the Transvaal; and, if so, will he issue them to the public. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) The text of the Liquor Ordinance has not yet been received, but there will be no objection to publication when it arrives.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he has consulted with Lord Milner and can now give an estimate as to how much of the three million pounds granted for the rebuilding and restocking of the Boer farms at the signing of peace has been spent on the purposes for which it was granted.

My right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary is unable to be here, and has asked me to read his answer. It is as follows:—"Upwards of £400,000 has been paid out of the Transvaal Treasury for repatriation purposes, and about £150,000 in the Orange River Colony. This is in addition to the cost of the animals and stores taken over from the military, which will amount to considerably over £1,000,000. Large additional contracts have also been entered into for cattle and supplies, but I am not able to state the exact amounts at present."

Will the cost of the animals come out of the grant?

It will be taken out of the funds placed at the disposal of Lord Milner.

What use will be made of them?

I presume they will be given to the Boers.

That is what I want get at.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies how much of the £3,000,000 free grant to burghers has been issued, upon what system has the grant been distributed, and what amounts have been spent upon seed corn, seed potatoes, horses, mules, oxen, implements, and expenses of administration.

In reply to the first part of this Question, I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Chesterfield. Relief is being distributed to the burghers by local commissions appointed under Article 10 of the Terms of Surrender. I have no detailed information with regard to the points raised in the last part of the hon. Member's Question.

Are these grants to the burghers treated as loans as free gifts? Can the right hon. Gentleman get me the information asked for in the latter part of the Question?

The hon. Gentleman will understand that I am only answering for the Colonial Secretary. He must give of any further Question.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for war if he can inform the House what steps have been taken and are being taken by the War Office to assist discharged reservists and time-expired men from the South African Campaign, including Imperial Yeomen, Militiamen, and Volunteers, to obtain civil employment.

Registers for civil employment are kept at the headquarters of regimental districts under the colonels commanding and at recruiting areas by recruiting staff officers. These officers are instructed to do all in their power to secure employment for the men whose names are on the registers. No men with characters less than "good" are so registered, and no men are recommended to employers unless there reasonable hope that they will satisfy their employers. A leaflet has been given to every soldier who has returned from the war telling him where to register, and giving him advice on the subject of obtaining civil employment. Posters and leaflets have been sent to all large employers of labour, urging them to remember the strong claims of reservists and time-expired men who have come home from the war. I may perhaps mention that in view of statements which I have every reason to believe are exceedingly exaggerated as to the number of reservists and time-expired soldiers who have not received their pay, or who have not obtained their discharges, I have arranged to open a bureau at 47, Victoria Street, for a short period, and any soldier calling there after Monday morning, 10th instant, will receive immediate consideration of his case.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that workmen are employed by a contractor covering up steam pipes with patent covering in the Danger Buildings, Royal Laboratory, Woolwich Arsenal, at a rate of wages of 5½d. per hour, which is below the current rate of wages in the locality for similar work; and whether he will insist upon the contractor paying the current rate.

The firm who are engaged on the work state that they are paying 5½d. and upwards for pipe covering, and inquiry will be made as to whether this rate is below the current rate of the district.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the outside rate for general labour is 6d. and 6½.d. per hour, according to the character of the work?

No, Sir, but I have said I will inquire.

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state the number of instances since the passing of The Vaccination Act, 1898, in which the justices or magistrates have declined to grant a certificate under the Conscience Clause of that Act, on the ground that the applicant had failed to satisfy them within the meaning of the Act; and will he state the number of certificates of exemption granted under the Conscience Clause of the Act.

I have no information as to the number of cases of the kind referred to in the first part of the Question. The number of certificates of conscientious objection actually received by Vaccination Officers down to the 30th June last was 331,438.

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state the number of applications for loans which have been made under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act.

The Local. Government Board have received forty-four applications from local authorities in England and Wales for sanction to loans under the Act referred to. As regards London the County Council are empowered to sanction such loans, and I am informed that they have received one application.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade a Question of which I have given him private notice—namely, whether he is aware that the Royal Commission on Alien Immigration has held no meeting since July, although the Commissioner of Police has reported to the Board of Trade that the number of foreign Jews in the East-end of London is increasing, and that the area inhabited by them is very largely extending.

I am afraid I cannot add anything to the reply I gave my hon. and gallant friend the other day, to the effect that I have no sort of control over the proceedings of the Royal Commission. I think if I were to address such a question to the Commission they might consider it an interference with their duties.

Is the chairman of the Royal Commission unable to continue the presidency of the Commission, and, if so, cannot another chairman be appointed?

I beg to ask the Post-master General if he will state the names of the various steamers which Messrs. MacBrayne have employed for the conveyance of His Majesty's mails between Kyle of Lochalsh and Stornoway since the breakdown in the Minch of the mail steamer "Clydesdale" early in September last; is he aware that the thirty-five-years-old paddle steamer "Gael," formerly ''Vixen," is now employed on this service; and will he state the speed of this boat and when and where she was last inspected.

Since the breakdown of the "Clydesdale" in September last the undermentioned steamers have conveyed the Mails between Kyle and Stornoway—"Clansman," "Lovedale," "Cavalier," "Glendale," and "Gael." The "Gael" performed the service from the 21st to the 28th of October, when she was replaced by the "Glendale," which has performed the service since the last mentioned date, except on the 30th of October when the "Gael" was again employed. The speed of the "Gael" is stated to be 15 knots an hour, and it is understood that she was last inspected at Glasgow, on January 7th, 1902. She was not formerly the "Vixen."

If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the shipping list he will see the "Gael" is described as formerly the "Vixen." Is he aware that her speed is not 15 knots but more likely 5?

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that a portion of the grazings on the southern slope of Ben Wyvis, near Strathpeffer, Ross-shire, are about to be converted into deer forest; and, seeing that these grazings were formerly occupied by crofter tenants, will the Secretary for Scotland make some inquiry to ascertain whether it is possible to secure these grazings for the creation of crofters' holdings.

The Secretary for Scotland regrets that he is unable to identify the grazings to which the hon. Member alludes. In any case, however, the slopes of Ben Wyvis do not appear to offer facilities for occupation by crofter tenants.

Does not the Lord Advocate intend to take any steps to prevent these devastations being carried out?

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that a number of cottars, fishermen, and other residents in the Island of Lewis have recently presented a petition to His Majesty setting forth that the depredations of steam trawlers, foreign and British, have rendered line fishing in the seas around the coast unremunerative, and that they are threatened with destitution; and, seeing that they assert that there are large tracts of land now practically waste from which the landless cottars could earn a living, will the Secretary for Secretary of Scotland advise the Congested Districts Board to open negotiations with the proprietor of the Island of Lewis for the purpose of acquiring land with a view to ameliorate the condition of these people.

The Secretary for Scotland is aware of the petition referred to. As I stated in reply to a similar Question on the 23rd October, the Congested Districts Board do not at present think they can usefully open negotiations in Lewis of the kind suggested by the hon. Member.

And meanwhile the cottars are to starve!

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the announcement that H.M.S. "Jackal" is about to be laid up for repairs, will he state what cruisers will be placed at the disposal of the Scottish Fishery Board for sea police duties during the withdrawal of the "Jackal."

I am informed that H.M.S. "Jackal" is not about to be laid up for repairs.

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General whether the spending powers of the Education Committees to be established under Clause 12 of the Education Bill are intended to be analogous to those of the Standing Joint Committees, as provided by Section 75 (16) (J) of The Local Government (England and Wales) Act, 1888; or whether the County Councils will be able to limit the amount of their expenditure, and to define the specific objects on which the money is to be spent.

I think that this Question could more conveniently be dealt with in discussion on the Clause itself.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that lead pencils made in Germany and Austria have for years enjoyed almost a monopoly of the supply of this country; and, having regard to the quality of the pencils now made in London, whether His Majesty's Stationery Office will take care to give orders for pencils to the home manufacturers.

Some years ago nearly all pencils bought for the public service were of foreign origin, but the Stationery Office are now able, as a rule, to obtain English pencils which meet their requirements. During the financial year 1901–02 they purchased (including telegraph pencils and small quantities of fancy pencils) 5355 gross of cedar pencils of which all but 725 gross were of English make. Careful experiments were made a few years ago with regard to telegraph pencils, and it was found that those manufactured in England were either considerably dearer or less satisfactory than the present pencils which are obtained from a firm in London but manufactured in Germany.

Why are we not provided with English pencils here in this House?

I am not aware that the pencils here are of foreign origin, but I will make inquiries.

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether he will state what amount of official assignees' costs and expenses have been paid out of the unclaimed dividend account in the Bank of Ireland in cases where the official assignees have unsuccessfully appealed to the House of Lords consequent upon a reversal by the Court of Appeal in Ireland of a decision of the judge in the Bankruptcy Division of the High Court during the last year for which accounts are available; and whether the Government will take steps to prevent such accounts from being further depleted by similar actions of the official assignees in future.

To the knowledge of the present official assignees in bankruptcy the only amount paid to the official assignees for costs and expenses of an unsuccessful appeal to the House of Lords was £1,006 9s. 6d. paid to them over seven years ago in indemnification of costs in re Peel, a bankrupt. This sum was paid in pursuance of Section 85 of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Act of 1877 out of moneys provided by Parliament for the purpose. The appeal was taken under the advice of Senior Counsel, both in England and Ireland, and on the authority of an Order of the late Court of Bankruptcy made in 1894.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state under what circumstances a young man named John O'Donnell, residing near Westport, was refused admission as a recruit to the Royal Irish Constabulary; what was the nature of the application of him and his father; and what was the report of the medical officer who examined him.

Owing to the popularity of the Royal Irish Constabulary the number of candidates for admission to the Force is always largely in excess of the vacancies. I cannot undertake to trace individuals from among the large number who are necessarily disappointed.

Did not this man and his father apply to the local sergeant of police in 1888, and was he not medically examined by the local doctor?

If the hon. Member wishes to urge that the man was improperly refused, and in such a way as to prejudice his future, I may say at once I think it is a matter with which I can deal.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether lie has received from the Boyle No. 2 District Council a resolution complaining that the amount of the supplemental loan sanctioned by the Treasury under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts has not been issued by the Board of Works; and whether, as the contractors, who have got final certificates from the engineer for their work, are now threatening legal proceedings for the balance due to them, he will direct that this loan shall be issued by the Board of Works without further delay.

The Commissioners of Public Works are not responsible for any delay that has taken place in the issue of this loan. The District Council has not yet furnished a conveyance of some of the land required, and until this has been done the mortgage deed securing the loan cannot be completed.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many Members of Parliament are now in prison under hard labour sentences; what complaints as to their treatment have been made to the visiting justices, the governor, and the medical officer; and what modifications of the prison rules have been made in consequence of these complaints.

One Member of Parliament, namely, the hon. Member for North Longford. He has made no complaints of the nature indicated, and no modifications of the prison rules have been made in consequence. Upon grounds of health, however, and on the recommendation of the medical officer, considerable relaxations in the rules have been made.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the auditor's Report on the Belfast Borough Accounts was not published in any newspaper, and was not circulated amongst the members of the Council; whether this Report contained any references to the manner in which certain officials discharged their duties; and whether the Local Government Board will insist on the former practice of publishing these Reports being complied with.

The Local Government Board is unable to say whether the Report was published or circulated. The Board has no power to require the publication of such Reports. The Local Government Bill, now before the House, contained a provision enabling the Board to make rules concerning the publication of Auditors' Reports. This provision, however, was dropped.

As this provision—a very useful one—was dropped in a hurry and without due consideration, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to reinstate it in the Bill?

I will consider that on the Report stage.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland why the Census Returns for the counties Armagh, Antrim, and Tipperary are not yet issued though the Census Commission was closed on 30th June; is there any reason why these counties are withheld; and, if not, will he say when the Returns may be expected.

The Census Book for Tipperary has been issued. There has been some delay in the issue of the volumes for Antrim and Armagh, but it is hoped these will be published in a few days.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a complaint from the Rev. John Curry, Drogheda, that, owing to the interpretation of the new rules by the Commissioners of National Schools, the head teacher of St. Mary's National School, Drogheda, has been subjected to a loss of £50 a year in his income as teacher; and whether it is proposed to refund this sum and to reconsider the payments of teachers and assistant teachers similarly circumstanced.

A communication has been received from the Rev. Mr. Curry and is at present under consideration.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the resolutions passed by the Roman Catholic clerical managers of national schools in three-fourths of Ireland referring to the statements made by Dr. Starkie, Resident Commissioner of National Education, recently in Belfast, against the managers of primary schools; whether it is proposed to hold any public inquiry into these matters; and if he can state what action the Government propose to take.

Some resolutions have reached me. The Resident Commissioner informs me that he has seen resolutions from Roman Catholic Managers which show that they are under the mistaken impression that he referred to them solely. That is not the case nor, in his opinion, do his words justify such an inference. I do not propose to hold a public inquiry. A small Committee was recently appointed to consider the whole question of building grants for school houses. No further action seems necessary.

Was not Dr. Starkie's speech as blazing an indiscretion as General Buller's speech? Why was he not retired in the same way?

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland why the Local Government Board have failed to index their annual report the same as is done in England; and will he give instructions to have this done in future.

The Report contains a Table of Contents classified with great care and on the same lines as the Table in the Scotch Report. The preparation of an alphabetical index would, I am afraid, delay the publication of the Report; however, I will inquire further into the matter.

Surely an index is as much required in the Irish as in the English Report.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will state whether the schools originally built as denominational schools, but which have been transferred to and are at present managed by School Boards, will become, at the expiration of the lease regulating their transfer, new public elementary schools provided by other persons, and will be subject to the provisions of Clause 9 of the Education Bill.

I have answered this Question already very fully on October 27. If the hon. Gentleman wishes me to repeat the answer I will do so, but I hope this may be the find edition. What I said was that "At the end of such a lease as that contemplated by the hon. Gentleman in his Question the buildings would revert absolutely to the lessors—that is to say, the trustees or the managers of the voluntary school. But if it is desired to use these buildings as a denominational school, this would be a new school and would come under the provision of Clauses 9 and 10 of the Bill."

May I ask whether, having regard to the fact that the effect will be to turn a considerable number of board schools into voluntary schools, the right hon. Gentleman will give an opportunity of discussing this question before the Committee stage of the Education Bill is over.

As I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's premises I need hardly say I do not follow him in his conclusions.

The point really is whether the trustees, when the buildings revert to them, will have to make a delegation at the time the school is reconstituted as a public elementary school.

I cannot say what will be done under the trust deeds unless I see them. There is an immense variety of them, and I cannot answer a question of that sort.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to prevent a hiatus in point of time between the expiry of the present powers and the commencement of the new powers?

I should be delighted to prevent any hiatus, but I do not know that the present Bill will cause one. There might be a hiatus possible under the existing system, and there might be one under the new system, but the new system will do nothing to increase any hiatus.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what the business will be tomorrow and Friday?

Tomorrow afternoon and on Friday the Education Bill will be taken. This evening and tomorrow evening will be devoted to the financial proceedings in connection with the Vote in Supply for the Transvaal. If I get the Vote tonight I shall take Report tomorrow. The Education Bill will be the second Order tomorrow evening.

I wish to ask whether, in view of the importance of the question raised by the Supply, the right hon. Gentleman will not give an afternoon for Supply and take the evening for education; or, if he cannot do that, whether he will endeavour to insure during the discussion of Supply the presence of an adequate number of Members in the House.

I hope an adequate number of Members will attend; but I think it will be very inconvenient unnecessarily to interrupt the discussion on the Education Bill. It must be interrupted on Monday next.

gave notice that whenever he found an opportunity he would call attention to Standing Order 25, Closure of Debate, to the mode in which it had been applied, and to the necessity that had recently been made manifest of so altering its terms as effectually to secure that which was supposed to be one of the conditions of its use—namely, that there should be no infringement of the rights of a minority in debate, particularly when called upon to consider Clauses of Bills in Committee.

moved an Amendment to substitute for the first two words of the Clause, "Any council," the words "The local education authority." He knew, he said, it was very inconvenient to band in an Amendment in writing, as he had done in this case, but he thought hon. Gentlemen would see that it had been done out of no desire to prolong the discussion. His reason for moving it was that in the Technical Instruction Acts, which were about to be repealed, the delegation or transfer of powers was dealt with in the manner he proposed. The machinery of those Acts was now quite familiar to the bodies who had the working of it; various points raised by it had been decided by the Law Courts or by correspondence with the Board of Education, and it would be well to retain the machinery. Last night, at a very late hour, some exceedingly important Amendments were placed on the Paper by the Government in the direction of taking the Technical Instruction Acts and their machinery of delegation, as a model, rather than the Lunacy Act, and he suggested that the Amendment would give the Government a convenient opportunity of explaining what was the new scheme they were going to propose. There were many hon. Members who were actually unaware that these Amendments had been placed on the Paper, and he must confess he could not see why the Government should not at a much earlier stage, have indicated that it was their intention to make these large alterations. He would be the last person to criticise them because, as far as he could make out, the Government had adopted nearly the whole of the Amendment he had placed on the Paper with regard to that matter, but he was inclined to think that the discussion would have been greatly shortened had the Amendments been placed on the Paper earlier. He begged to move. Amendment proposed—

"In page 4, line 26, to leave out the first two words 'any council' and insert the words 'the local education authority.'"—(Lord E. Fitzmaurice.)

Question proposed, "That the words 'Any council' stand part of the clause."

said the reason for the words used in the Clause was, that there were certain cases of boroughs of under 10,000, and urban districts of under 20,000 inhabitants, where there were concurrent powers which would have to be exercised under this Act, but where the body exercising those powers was not the local education authority. They used the words "Any council" in order to include these cases. As to the other point raised by the noble Lord, his hon. friend would deal with that when his Amendment was reached.

thought they might, before commencing the discussion of the most important Clause, have an explanation from the Government of the changes they were going to make. There was a conversation on that point just before they rose last night, and no hint was then given that the Bill was going to be completely changed. So far as he understood the changes he was favourable to them, but it was due to the Committee that there should be an explanation at the very commencement of the discussions on the Clause.

The question will arise on the first Amendment which stands in the name of the Secretary to the Board of Education.

Yes, but we shall then have passed words of the Clause which we might wished to have altered. We ought not to commence discussing the Clause without knowing the complete scheme of the Government.

said that so far as he knew there was in no quarter any desire to do otherwise than assist the Committee in understanding what the new scheme of the Government was. He thought it would be very much better that the explanation should be given before they entered on the consideration of the Clause. They did not at present know to what extent the adoption of the first few words would be consistent with the new scheme. After all, it was a matter of courtesy that they were asking at the hands of the Government.

said the last thing the Government desired to be lacking in was courtesy. It was a question of convenience. If the noble Lord withdrew his Amendment they could at once come to an Amendment which truly raised the question in regard to which an explanation was desired. He thought that would be the most convenient course, but still he was quite willing that the statement should be made now.

said the words "any council" raised some important points relating to other parts of the Clause. He wished to ask whether the small local authorities would have to go through all the trouble of framing a scheme exactly as the County Council had to proceed. He objected to compelling them to do so, and had supposed that the intention of the Government was to leave the smaller authorities the powers they had at the present time. They ought not to pass these words until they knew whether the Government intended to alter the constitution and methods of these small authorities.

said he understood the proposal was that his hon. friend should make a statement by leave of the Committee, but everyone could not discuss that statement by the leave of the Committee. He thought it would be more regular to dispose of the Amendment. Then the statement could be made and discussed by everybody.

asked whether it was to be understood that the machinery proposed was to be inapplicable to the smaller authorities.

said he thought that was implied.

said the observations of the Attorney General showed that the Amendment was one of substance, and it gave the Government ail opportunity of making a statement of their policy. What was really proposed was that councils of non-county boroughs and urban districts, who had no powers except for the purposes of education other than elementary, should nevertheless be subject to these schemes. He hoped the Government would make their statement now. It would he entirely in order.

said he could not assent to have the discussion on this Amendment and then go over it all again on the Amendment of his hon. friend. He was ready to come to some arrangement.

thought the right hon. Gentleman misunderstood what they were asking. There was no desire to have the discussion on the Government proposals on this Amendment. What they desired was to be enlightened as to the character of the new proposals. The notice was placed on the Paper only at a late hour last night, and he thought it was only due to the Committee that they should have the Government statement now.

said that so long as the statement was not to be discussed now it was nothing to them whether that statement was made at once, or on the Amendment to be proposed later by his hon. friend.

said what they wanted to know was the view of the Government as to the Clause as a whole. Were the Councils in these small areas to be compelled to appoint a Committee within the next twelve months, and if they failed to do so, would the Board of Education have power to step in and by Provisional Order appoint one to carry out duties which might not require to be undertaken for many years to come? How far did the Government scheme alter that position? He did not wish to pronounce any opinion on the point of procedure, but the Committee would be at great difficulty in discussing the Clause unless they first had a bird's-eye view of the remodelled scheme. Surely the Government might, in a few words, indicate the changes they were prepared to make in the Clause.

said he understood that he was expected to make a statement as to the intentions of the Government with regard to the framing of the Clause without its now being discussed. His first Amendment was to omit the words "in the exercise of," in order to substitute the word "having." The result would be that, with the addition of another Amendment which immediately followed, the Clause would run thus:—

"Any Council having powers under this Act shall establish an Education Committee, or Education Committees, constituted in accordance with a scheme made by the Council and approved by the Board of Education."

The Committee would observe that the reference to the rating powers was left out at this point but would reappear in the Amendment which stood farther down in his name as follows—

"All matters relating to the exercise by the Council of their powers under this Act shall stand referred to the Education Committee, and the Council, before exercising any such powers, shall consider the Report (if any) of the Education Committee with respect to the matter in question. The Council may also delegate to the Education Committee, with or without any restrictions or conditions as they think fit, any of their powers under this Act, except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money."

There could be no doubt that these Amendments would effect a distinct modification in the scheme of the relations of the Council to the Committee as they appeared in the Bill before the Committee. There was no doubt, also, that as these debates had gone on it had become plain that there was a desire in the House and in the country that the local education authority which it was proposed to establish should be an authority popularly elected and directly responsible to the ratepayers. The Government desired that it should be so. This body would have, in spite of all that might be said in its disparagement, great powers, and the Government believed that it would exercise those powers in a manner salutary to the education of the country; but they wished that it should be a popularly chosen body the Council of a county or of a borough, which should be entrusted with powers in all matters relating to education within its area. The objects of his Amendments were to make that point quite clear. He would state what he conceived the relations between these two bodies would be. The local education authority would not act through a Committee, but it would be bound to ask the advice of the Committee. If the Committee did not advise at all, if it were unwilling to advise or incapable of advising, or if its advice—as might sometimes happen, though he believed that such instances would be very rare—should not be such as the Council thought it desirable to follow, the local education authority would act either without the advice of the Committee or contrary to it; but in any case the local education authority would be the body that would act in the matter. It might be contended that in the larger areas difficulties and delays would be occasioned if the local education authority had in every case to await the advice of its consultative committee. The Government proposed to meet that by giving very extensive powers of delegation, the amount of power delegated to be determined from time to time by the local authority, and the powers delegated to be liable at any moment to modification or withdrawal. But to these powers of delegation the Government made one very important exception: The local education authority was not to be able to delegate its power of raising a rate or of borrowing money. The executive power necessarily rested with the local education authority—the Council, and the financial power must rest with it under the provisions of the Bill; but the powers of delegation, with the exception of its financial power, would be regulated by the Council's own convenience and what it conceived to be the educational requirements of its area. He would not trouble the Committee with any constitutional comparison of the relations between this Committee and the Council and those of other Committees and other Councils. What concerned the Committee was not how this Education Committee would compare with the Watch Committee or the Standing Joint Committee and their respective Councils, but what the Government meant to do in respect of the Councils of which this Committee was the constitutional adviser. What he wished to impress upon the Committee was that the popularly chosen body was and would be supreme, but that it could delegate most of its powers, with the exception of its financial powers. The one other point was as to the intention of the Government in respect of the composition of the Committee. The Council was to choose or appoint a majority, but it might appoint that majority from its own body, or it might not. The Government would be prepared to throw upon the Council the burden of deciding whether it would not appoint a majority of members of its own body by introducing words, making it necessary that the Council should appoint a majority of members of its own body u less it expressly determined not to do so. He would not go further into the schemes which would be submitted by the various Councils to the Education Department. No doubt much discussion might take place when the Committee came to consider the necessary provisions of those schemes. What he desired to impress upon the Committee—and he hoped he had made it sufficiently clear—was that the Council was to be the local education authority, and that the Education Committee was to consist of a majority of persons chosen by the Council, and primarily, unless specially determined otherwise, from members of its own body. The Committee could now discuss the noble Lord's Amendment, and when his own Amendment came to be considered much of the explanation he had now given would be no longer necessary.

asked whether the small boroughs were to be compelled to appoint an Education Committee. In his own constituency there were two small boroughs of about 3,000 inhabitants which would be compelled under this scheme to appoint an Education Committee with all the paraphernalia of submitting schemes to the Board of Education, and so forth. That, surely, was not, the wish of the Government. If. therefore, words could be introduced to prevent such an occurrence, it would relieve the minds of those who represented small boroughs. It would certainly be absurd to appoint Committees which would perhaps have no work to do, and which, even if they did work, would do so in contravention of the wish of the Government, and would infringe the work of the County Council.

said the reason why these words—which undoubtedly included small as well as large boroughs—had been introduced was, that the Government confidently expected that those boroughs would work in with t he County Council so far as their own work was concerned. Such co-operation would probably be much easier between the Education Committee of the county authority and the Education Committee of the small borough than by direct negotiations between the boroughs and the County Councils.

But supposing the small boroughs do not wish to take any action at all?

It would not be any serious burden; there is no cost.

said the answer of the Attorney General had undoubtedly shown that there was substance as well as drafting in the Amendment which he had moved with the feeling that it was one the Government would probably accept. All he desired to do was to bring the first words of the Clause into harmony with the local education authority as defined in Clause 1, being under the impression that the Government intended that the only real education authorities should be those mentioned in that Clause. He admitted that he was one of those who pressed on the Government the claims in regard to a certain limited class of questions, of the smaller boroughs and Urban Councils, but he certainly never contemplated that the smaller authorities should blossom forth in the full dignity of local education authorities. It now appeared, however, that the Government intended Clause 3—the drafting of which would have to be reconsidered on Report—to be pressed to the full extent of recognising these smaller authorities as the local education authorities for all purposes.

No.

At any rate for a great number of purposes.

For the purposes of Clause 3, as amended.

was convinced that the County Councils Association only desired to save the rating power possessed by these small places under the Technical Instruction Acts, and which had been found to be most useful. It never entered their minds that they should be the local education authority. If the Government meant more than he had supposed, they had a good reason for rejecting the Amendment, but his idea in moving it was that the Government wished to make only the County, and the County Borough Councils local education authorities, and that, therefore, they would be able to accept his proposal.

said that since the Bill was originally drafted, an important alteration had been made in Clause 3, and the words had a much extended meaning. The substantial question arose of whether every small borough, whether it intended to exercise its powers under Clause 3 or not, should have imposed upon it the obligation of appointing an Education Committee. It was essential that such an obligation should be put upon every local education authority, but surely in the case of these small boroughs it might be optional. Many small towns were willing enough to contribute a certain amount of money to meet money provided by the central authority for the purposes of certain institutions within their own borders, but it was quite unnecessary to put them under this obligation.

was inclined to support the Government as against the noble Lord, although the Amendment undoubtedly had much to be said for it. The Government had placed themselves in the present difficulty by not really facing on Clause 3 the question of the relative position of the smaller areas to the county in respect of secondary education. If they intended to adhere to the position as laid down in Clause 3, what had fallen from the First Lord of the Treasury was the logical outcome of the situation. He thought, however, there was a third and much wiser course. Could not the Government, even now, with regard to these smaller areas, devise a subordinate local autonomy suited to the exercise of certain limited powers with regard to, both elementary and secondary education? If the Government would face the problem of bringing these smaller areas into logical co-ordination with the work of the County Councils, and in some way secure autonomy with regard to both branches of education, they would effect a material improvement in the Bill.

said that he had been much impressed by what had been said by the First Lord of the Treasury, that it might be desirable where these authorities were willing to rate themselves with other boroughs or counties to have a combined scheme, and that might have the effect of putting a larger sum at the disposal of the joint authority for educational work. If this view were accepted the best course to adopt would be to follow out the suggestion of the hon. Member for East Somerset, and accept the Amendment moved by the noble Lord to insert a proviso which would enable these minor areas, where they proposed to rate themselves, and where there was a prospect of union, to ask the Board of Education to give them a Committee, and allow them to enter into the joint scheme of action which the right hon. Gentleman contemplated. He hoped the Government would consider that suggestion.

hoped that at some other stage of the Bill the Govern merit would take some steps to bring about a union of these small areas. He was perfectly certain that the working of the authorities for these small areas would not be satisfactory. They were deficient in money, and had not sufficient influence to command efficient service, and they laboured under all those disadvantages and disabilities which belonged to minor authorities. It would be far more satisfactory if this Clause was confined to the larger authorities. It would be far better to achieve this result by direct action now, instead of leaving to some small authority which would take considerable time, and delay the operation of the Bill.

said he was not quite sure what kind of parishes would be included under Clause 3. There were a large number which had been made urban districts, but which were in fact small rural parishes. These small parishes were familiar to some hon. Members, for they were very thick in some counties, although in others they did not exist at all. These small parishes ought not to be brought under machinery appeared of this kind, because the tiling would have to be a dead letter, or else those parishes would be put to a large expense which they were quite unable to undertake.

said what he understood from the discussion was that where the authority had control of elementary as well as higher education, they ought to establish a committee there, but where the authority had only control of elementary education this proposal should not touch it. It did seem ridiculous that they should be compelled to establish a committee which might not get to work for a very long time. Where there was one single authority fully constituted, it should he made compulsory to form a committee, but in the case of the small parishes they should not be compelled to set up committees until they found it was necessary. If it were merely a question of providing an extra £50 or £100 he could understand the County Council "We will give you so much if you will provide the remainder." Was there any necessity to establish a committee in a case of this description, whereas if they were to undertake more extended operations they could establish a committee for that purpose. He suggested to the right hon. Gentleman that he should carry out his original idea. This difficulty had arisen over the acceptance of an Amendment. Let them have for the large areas the one authority acting through committee and in the supplementary areas let them have power to appoint a committee, or leave it alone, according to the needs of the locality.

said they had introduced under the Bill over 800 small parishes, each of which would be compelled to send a scheme up to the Education Department for the constitution of an authority. He thought the suggestion made by the hon. Member for North West Ham was a happy way out of the difficulty. If under Clause 3 as modified they had no power over elementary education, and could only spend up an extra penny they ought not to be compelled to set up a scheme for the control of higher education upon winch they might not be spending any rummy for years.

said there to be no difference of opinion in regard to the principle of this proposal on this or the other side of the House. They were all agreed that they must have a Committee in every case where elementary education was concerned, for they could not work the Bill without one. He thought they were all agreed that there probably were cases in which the Borough Council was not the authority for elementary education, where it would nevertheless be desirable that they should be. He confessed that upon this subject he had been impressed by the arguments which had fallen from hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House. He agreed that in some cases the proposal was almost too elaborate for the trifling purposes for which it would lie used. He was disposed to think that the case would be met by the suggestion of the hon. Member for North West Ham, which left sufficient latitude to the authorities to appoint these Committees where it was desirable, and left it optional where it was not desirable that they should be appointed.

said they ought to be informed whether the Government thought it was advisable or necessary that these small places should have any Committee at all. He agreed with the hon. Member for North West Ham in regard to confining the operation of this Clause to districts and boroughs already created as authorities for elementary education as well as secondary education. The Prime Minister agreed that the appointment of these committees ought not to be made compulsory upon these small bodies, and it was worth while considering whether they ought to have this power at all, because it would encourage the establishment of committees for which no reason could be alleged. In many cases a committee was not necessary, because they could entrust the work to sub-committees of the larger bodies. He did not think it was necessary to give even permissive powers to these small places.

said the suggestion of the hon. Member for North West Ham was in accordance with suggestions which had been made from this side of the House, and they would accept it.

The words proposed by the hon. Member for North West Ham express, I think, in a general sense what the Committee is disposed to agree to. At the same time I think difficulty may arise on the words, because if you state that any Council having powers under Part III. of the Act shall appoint a committee, it might be said that the inference is that the committee appointed is solely with reference to the powers to he exercised under Part III. I think it is desirable that it should be made very clear, and what I would suggest is that it would be better dealt with by a proviso—I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen made a suggestion of that kind—at a subsequent stage for carrying into effect what the hon. Member for North West Ham has suggested.

hoped the Committee would now go on to the next Amendment. They were all agreed on the substance of what was suggested.

What course does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take with regard to the Amendment?

It will be dealt with by a proviso afterwards.

said he was not at all sure that the Committee were agreed as to the substance, but as the matter would be discussed afterwards he would not go into it now.

said he wished to point out how the change proposed by the Government affected the question the Committee had just been discussing. The change would bring about the difficulty they wished to avoid. If the words "in the exercise of" were left in the Clause, the question the Government had just now undertaken to deal with would be very much simplified, because it would not be necessary then for every one of the smaller Councils to appoint a committee and to apply for a scheme until they had begun to exercise powers other than rating powers.

moved to leave out "shall" and insert "may'' in line 27. He said that some of his objections to the compulsory won "shall" would be to the taken away if he was right in thinking that the Government, by the rather complicated Amendment which would be proposed later on, really meant that the County Council was to he absolutely its own master. Reference was made to the Standing Joint Committee, but the Parliamentary Secretary did not say whether it was the intention of the Government that there should be a similar committee for education. He understood that the committee referred to in the Clause was to be under the control of the County Council, and that the County Council should have absolute control over its constitution. He asked the Government what was their objection to leaving it to the discretion of the County Council to appoint, or not to appoint, an education committee as they should see fit. There might be eases where a County Council or a small Borough Council would think it unnecessary to appoint a committee. It appeared to him that the Government had modified their scheme in such a way as to show absolute distrust of the County Councils. Clause 4 of the Bill provided that the Board of Education might hold, if they thought fit, a local inquiry to find out whether the scheme proposed by a County Council or Town Council was one approved of by the locality. That seemed very curious indeed. Looking to the general scheme of the Bill, there was no doubt that the object of the Government was to make the Country Council the creature of the Education Department. The representatives of the Government talked in this House of decentralisation, and of making the system of education suited to the different localities, but when the Bill was examined it seemed perfectly certain that the Board of Education were to be the real masters. It might be that the Board of Education would insist upon a scale of salaries to be paid to the teachers. He thought it would be satisfactory if they had a Schedule to the Bill showing what was to be done by the Board of Education. As the Bill stood, the Board of Education might make any rule they liked, and force up the local rate to any extent. No doubt they had got some power, but if the County Council objected, all that the Board of Education had to do was to sit tight for twelve months, then send down County Council their scheme, and order it to be carried out. His argument was that they should trust the County Councils in this matter and put in "may" instead of "shall," so as to allow them to act as a body if they liked.

said he was afraid it was very difficult to relieve some hon. Gentlemen opposite from the pressure of the nightmare under which they laboured in regard to this Bill. They though t that the Bill was designed entirely with a view of hampering and embarrass-in, the local authority, and that it was inspired by a distrust of the local authority in every direction, and with the desire to work everything under the control of the Board of Education; while the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board was a sort of ghostly enemy to education, lying in ambush everywhere to thwart the education ambitions of every locality. The hon. Gentleman in the first place said that it was a great insult to the County Councils that their schemes should be published, and that there should be public inquiry in regard to them before they were approved by the Board of Education. There were different kinds of inquiry conducted by various Departments, and he had never heard that any local authority had considered itself aggrieved or insulted by these inquiries. Then, as to leaving it optional to the local authority to appoint the committee, the hon. Gentleman forgot that the committee would he the humble servants of the local authority. Again, County Councils were not elected specially for educational matters, and some of them might not be the best authorities on education. It was, therefore, desirable that the local authority-should be assisted by the advice of persons of experience in education, and acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools in the area for which the Councils acted, and that it should be incumbent upon them to appoint a committee or committees. Moreover, there were various persons, women in particular, who could not sit on Municipal Councils, and if the Amendment was adopted they would be left out of all consideration and have no voice in the educational affairs of the area. For that reason alone, unless the hon. Member wished to exclude finally from all consideration those persons who took a deep interest in education, this Amendment was hardly worthy of consideration. How would the committee be the masters of the local authority, and not the servants, when, if their action was not approved by the local authority, their appointment might be revoked?

hoped that his hon. friend would not press his Amendment to a division, or if he did he would vote against it. Parliament was throwing a. large amount of extra work on those Councils, and nearly all of them would devolve the educational work on committees. In this matter of education it was necessarily most important that the local authorities should avail themselves of the help of outsiders, and particularly of the assistance of women, whose help had been in the past so important. Then there were some local authorities who would not avail themselves of the option, because they did not want any schemes of educational reform at all.

said he did not think the hon. Baronet understood the point, of his hon. friend who moved the Amendment. The greater the merits of the committee, the more likelihood that the County Councils would appoint such a committee, and he quite agreed that in the great majority of cases the local authorities would be desirous of having a special committee. But the Amendment did not exclude the appointment of a committee—only that they should have the power to appoint or not as they pleased. The Bill as amended laid it down that the County Councils "shall" appoint a committee or committees and that the County Councils shall refer certain matters for their consideration and report. Suppose a County Council disliked a committee, it might say if the appointment were made imperative, "Oh, we will appoint a dozen committees if you like." But when the committee reported a scheme to the. County Council the report would be put into the waste-paper basket. There was no power in the Bill to compel the County Council to act on the committee's report. It was desirable therefore to put in the forefront of the Bill that the appointment of the commit tee should be optional. It was idle to disturb an unwilling County Council, and insist that they should appoint a committee, when that committee, once appointed, would have no power to see that their report was acted on. He agreed that the appointment, of those committees would probably be very useful, but there were cases in small boroughs and urban districts—he knew of one—where it would be, to his mind, undesirable to act through a committee. Where there was a small centralised population, with a population of 10,000 or 20,000, if the Councils were obliged to appoint a committee, it would be very difficult to get a committee which would be as good as the Council itself. As to the statement of the hon. Member for Oldham, that the County Councils and the Borough Councils were already overburdened with work, well, in such a case the Councils would, as a matter of course, take advantage of the option in the Bill and appoint a committee. Therefore he would suggest that it would be wiser, when they were establishing a single educational authority, that as Dutch responsibility and authority should he given them is possible, and not to limit them in the way proposed.

said he was entirely in favour of the Amendment, because it would give greater elasticity to the working of the Bill. In no case would the County Council or Borough Council be shut out from the exercise of the power. The Secretary to the Board of Education had said that if the Amendment were carried the power would be taken away to appoint women on the committee. That did not follow at all from the Amendments, for women could be on a committee appointed by the County Council. When it came to small local authorities, like a borough of 10,000 inhabitants, it would be most convenient, in his opinion, that the Borough Council should act as the Education Committee. Under the scheme of the Bill the Borough Councils were hound to appoint a committee, all the members of which might not even be resident within the borough. He was entirely against the scheme of the Bill, and thought that the power of the educational authority should be absolutely unfettered. Under the Bill of 1896, one third of the committee had to retire, but were eligible for re-election; and it could not be contended that that was not a proper provision. Under the present Bill, the scheme might be cut and dried, and there might no provision for the retirement of any part of the committee; and therefore, however in competent or inattentive the members may be, it would be impossible to supersede them. If, however, the Amendment were adopted, the local authority would be allowed to constitute itself a committee for the purposes of the Act, and would be persons who would, now and again, have to submit themselves for re-election. While he believed that it would be advisable in most cases, and he might say even in all cases, that committees should be appointed, he was strongly in favour of the Amendment, because it would give greater elasticity.

said he should certainly vote against the Amendment. It had been made perfectly clear that the local authority would have supreme and absolute power, and that the committee would be of an advisory character, and in that capacity it would be of the greatest value. It had been pointed out that women could be members of the committee; and he thought it was also desirable that it should contain representatives of the teachers. The County Councils, in framing a scheme, would be very glad to have the opinions and representations of all the persons that would be affected. Further, the provisions empowering the County Council to put on the committee persons nominated by other bodies, was a very valuable one, as it would secure in the framing of the scheme the opinions of all classes in the area affected. He believed that the appointment of the committee would do much to produce a scheme of real force, and he would therefore oppose the Amendment.

said that if he understood the Amendment as the hon. Member who had just spoken understood it, he should certainly vote against it. But it would not do away with the appointment of the committee it all. In ninety-nine cases out of every hundred committees would be appointed; but the Amendment would apply in a few cases of small boroughs with only 10,000 inhabitants or a little more, and of small urban districts with only 20,000 inhabitants, or a little more, where committees would be a great inconvenience. He thought the local authority should be given the power not to appoint a hut the Amendment would not prevent the appointment of a committee. In the great County Councils all the work was done through committees; and committees would be appointed; but in the smaller Councils it would be very difficult to find a useful and efficient committee. In such cases he thought that the County Councils ought to have the power of doing the work themselves, and should not be forced to appoint a committee, which necessarily must be rather inefficient in consequence of the fewness of the persons to choose from. The Amendment would not prevent the appointment of a committee in all places where a committee would he good and necessary; but in the few cases where a committee would be injurious, it would enable the local authority to act themselves. He hoped the Amendment would be accepted.

said he would ask his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment, which he did not think could conduce in the least to the power or authority which the new local education authority ought to have in the small boroughs. He had the honour to represent a Lancashire constituency in which there were three small boroughs, two of which had School Boards. Speaking for those boroughs, he was quite sure the first thing they ought to do in relation to the new Act was to enforce on the local authority so constituted the obligation of at once forming executive committees. He thought it would be detrimental to the interests of education that the word "shall" should be taken out. Though lie did not agree with the scheme of the Bill, he believed the first step towards replacing the School Boards now existing in the small towns ought to be made imperative upon the districts by Act of Parliament.

asked, if the Amendment were negatived and the word "shall" retained, would that prejudice the proviso suggested by the hon. Member for North West Ham, which he strongly supported?

said that, subject to the ruling of the Chair, he thought that the retention of the word "shall" would not prejudice the proviso.

moved the omission of the words "or education committees." The object of the Bill was understood to be to set up in a given locality one and the same authority for elementary and secondary education, That was a vital part of the Bill, and he objected to words which would empower the local authority to set up two committees within its area, one f r secondary and technical instruction, and the other for elementary education. It might be that that was not the intention of the framers of the Bill; but, as the Clause stood, it would empower, and to some extent invite, the local education authority to transact its business, not merely through one committee, but through two committees. It might be that the intention of the Government was that the local authority in the larger areas should have power to appoint committees on topographical grounds, not by reason of the different kind of education to be controlled. That might be proper and necessary; but the Clause should not be left in its present vague form. Over the whole of a county there should be one and the same committee for all kinds of schools. Although' he did not think it was the intention of the Government, the words "education committees" would prevent that. It was necessary to know what was the intention of the Government, because a new feature was brought into the Bill which would be negative to the main features of the Bill, and which ran contrary to much of the argument by which the Bill had been supported, both in the Committee and in the country. The words "education committees" would divide the control of the work into two parts. It would assign to one committee elementary education, and practically set up another School Board and assign to another committee technical and higher education. Such a thing would in his opinion be foreign to the principles of the Bill, and for that reason he. begged to move that the words "or education committees" be omitted. Already the principle of one and the same authority had been strained to a dangerous degree.

said it would be undesirable to fetter the local education authority in its arrangements as to the mode in which it should get educational advice within its area. There would he no obligation on the local authority to appoint more than one committee, but it might be desirable, and even necessary, in a large area to have more than one. The unity the hon. Member desired for all kinds of education would the Hind in the local authority itself. The hon. Gentleman would see that the mode in which it should collect advice must be left to that authority. So far as the hon. Member desired to prevent that advice being sectional, he would not secure it by his Amendment, because it would be impossible to prevent a committee appointing sub-committees. He could not accept the Amendment.

admitted there was a good deal to be said on both sides. He had been much struck by the manner in which, in the county with which he was connected, the landowners and farmers hail become interested in technical education and had taken a real interest in such technical education as agricultural education. It might be that under the conditions of t his Clause, although they might be disposed to accept the general policy of the committee, it would he found almost impossible to induce them to continue the very useful and increasingly useful work which they were beginning to look upon as their own, and to take considerable pride in. At the same time he felt that his hon. friend had been fully justified in raising this question, but he thought that he would lie wise to withdraw his Amendment, because although it might work out very well in some ways it would do a great deal of harm in others. He assumed, of course, that these words had nothing to do with sub-Section 3, because these committees were matters upon which he looked with some suspicion. It was one thing to appoint a committee for technical education, and another for elementary education, but quite another thing to cut up the county into two or three large areas, each under a separate committee. Sub-Section 3 dealt with the geographical areas, but, the subject with which the Committee was dealing now was whether the people could divide education into three large classes.

supported the withdrawal of the Amendment. As he understood, it would be open to the local education authority to appoint one committee for secondary education and one for elementary education. That would be a very important point for the Welsh Members to consider when they came to deal with sub-Section 6.

expressed his dissatisfaction with the statement made by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Education. He again pointed out that this was a matter which must be considered seriously. It now became evident for the first time in all these debates that the Government contemplated permission being given to the local education authorities under the Bill to retain and maintain the existing division between elementary and technical schools which had worked so badly in the past. In the past a School Board existed, with powers over public elementary education, and in the same borough a Technical Education Committee existed with certain powers for the purposes of technical instruction. There was no co-ordination between those two authorities. The hon. Gentleman said that co-ordination would exist in the Council itself, but it could only be assumed that the Council would adopt the reports of its committees pro forma, as it did at present the reports of its committees for routine work. Therefore the same conditions would exist as at present. One committee would deal with technical instruction in an entirely different manner to another, and the curriculum of the elementary school would bear no relation to the curriculum of the technical school or the secondary school. There would be no common knowledge on the part of one committee of the needs of the various kinds of schools dealt with by the other committee, and they would simply perpetuate the existing bad educational conditions, which could not be justified on any educational basis that he was aware of. The Council was to be the local authority, and in the last resort would rule. It was now proposed to devolve upon a separate committee the task of governing certain schools. If the Government consented to do that he would begin to tax them with insincerity in regard to the alleged aim of the Bill, which, for all the good it would then do, might as well never have been introduced. The words "or educational committees" meant that the local authority would be able, and almost invited, to set up separate committees for elementary, technical and secondary schools. That would not relieve the local authority of work, but it would almost inevitably lead to friction between the different committees. He urged the Prime Minister in the interests of the children and in the the interest of education not to allow these words to remain in their unqualified form. He was perfectly willing to withdraw the Amendment and move the insertion of "sub," so that the Clause would read "education committee or education subcommittees" if the right hon. Gentleman would accept the latter Amendment.

pointed out that the Amendment of the hon. Member would place several Members in a difficult position, because, although they agreed with much he had said, they would be obliged to vote against the proposal inasmuch as the words of the Clause gave an important security, topographically considered, to certain portions of certain districts. He suggested, however, that the hon. Member might carry out his purpose by a proviso at the end of the Clause that the plural committees should apply only topographically, and not as far as classes of schools were concerned. There had been a virtual promise that for certain portions of large counties there should be separate committees, and that promise would fail of fulfilment if either proposal of the hon. Member were accepted.

thought the discussion had revealed the great difficulty there would be in applying this Bill in the rural districts. In towns there would be no difficulty in having one autonomous and single committee for the whole area, but in sparsely populated counties of large area it would be impossible to work the elementary schools without some subordinate local authority to look after the details. It might be said that the managers would do that. But in the denominational schools the managers could not be so fully trusted as in the provided schools, and in order to secure satisfactory administration there would have to be subordinate committees over areas of a limited extent to superintend the schools in those areas. That would aid in the co-ordination which all were anxious to secure between elementary and secondary education, and would relieve the central body of a vast amount of work which otherwise they could not possibly carry out. He suggested that the Government should make some alteration of the phraseology enabling the local education authority to work, not only through its committee, but either by appointing subordinate committees, or in some other way to provide for the necessary decentralisation of the work of elementary schools.

agreed that in some counties it would be most desirous to have two committees both dealing with the higher work, each taking one portion of the county, and both reporting to the County Council. It was scarcely necessary, however, to say a single word as to the obvious danger of allowing, or almost inviting, a County Borough Council to appoint two committees, one dealing with elementary and the other with higher education. It should be remembered that there would be a tendency in that direction from the fact that the two forms of education had been separate in the past, and that regrettable divorce between elementary and higher education would be perpetuated. He would prefer sub-committees to separate committees, because the former would have to report to the one advising body before the matter reached the Council. Everyone knew what happened to such reports when they went before the County Councils. Unless there was some notorious new departure the Council would not trouble itself in the matter, but as soon as it had confidence in its committee, would accept its reports without discussion or comment. Would it not be possible for the representative of the Board of Education to give an undertaking that no scheme would be approved which perpetuated this separation between higher and elementary education. The Board of Education were anxious to secure co-ordination; it was the desire of the Government. Then let them not nullify their own proposals by leaving it open to the Borough Councils to adopt machinery which would make it impossible for those proposals to be carried out. If such an assurance as he had suggested were given he would be prepared to let the Clause pass, but he would much prefer to have the words in the Bill.

said this point seemed to be outside the region of controversy, for they were all agreed as to the object to be attained. He thought, however, that these things ought to be provided for in the Bill, and the point was not too insignificant to put in express terms in the Bill itself. To him the answer given to the hon. Member for Mid Glamorgan, that it was possible to set up two separate committees, was quite alarming. He hardly thought that that was contemplated by the Prime Minister or the Secretary to the Board of Education. The success of the American system of education was due largely to the fact that there was this co-ordination. Surely they ought not to start now contemplating the possibility of severing the functions of the committee, one committee to run primary, and the other secondary education. This bad led to no end of difficulties in the past, and he always understood that it was those difficulties which had given rise to this Bill. Instead of the quarrels between School Boards and Town Councils this proposal would in the future give rise to quarrels between two committees, and they would not improve matters by simply changing the combatants. Education would suffer by those quarrels, and so they ought to make it clear that there should be only one authority with indisputable claims to manage both secondary and primary education. A good deal had been said about sub-committees, but he did not think it was necessary to give this power in the Bill, because every committee had power to appoint sub-committees. Any body could appoint a committee of two or three to attend to one special branch of a subject, and there ought to be no difficulty about that. Why should they add to the possibility of difficulties and quarrels by saying that provided schools should be under the control of one committee up to four o'clock, and after that time under the control of another committee? Between ten in the morning and four in the afternoon one authority controlled, and between four and ten the following morning there would be another authority. That was so absurd arid ridiculous that surely a few words inserted in the Bill would simplify matters.

thought it would be wise to accept the Amendment of his hon. friend. He had had some experience in these matters, and he thought it was very advisable that one committee should deal with all forms of education. He did not say that no sub-committees should be appointed, because the area must be divided into sub-committees, but it was eminently desirable that all the recommendations of these sub-committees should come before the committee itself. The executive education committee should have before it all the recommendations of the sub-committees, and unless they had something of that kind he agreed with the hon. Member for North \test Ham that some of the promises which had been held out with regard to this Bill ran some risk of not being realised. They ought to do everything they could to prevent any possibility of that kind taking place. He hoped the suggestions which had found favour with a good many hon. Members on both sides as to the importance of giving power to separate very large areas into separate districts would be met. By adopting this course they would be doing more in the interests of education generally than if they adopted the proposal as it was in the Bill.

I have not heard the whole of the debate upon this point, but I have heard enough to appreciate the general tenor of the views on both sides of the House. Hon. Members fear that if more than one committee is permitted the division of the duties between two or more committees will be, as it were, a horizontal division dividing secondary and primary education, and not a perpendicular division. With that general declaration of policy the Government are in entire harmony. We have from the beginning, and from the day I introduced the Bill, contended that it would be a great misfortune if the prophecies of my hon. friend the Member for North West Ham came true, and if education was not now co-ordinated, but divided between School Boards and Technical Instruction Committees, thus perpetuating them under new names under this Bill. But while I sympathise with that general view of policy, I am very reluctant to limit the discretion of the education authority unduly. We must be careful what we do in this matter, and not tie their hands too closely in matters which concern their proper function of dealing with secondary education. I have been trying in a rough way to draft words which I think would carry out the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I do not think they will require some modification at the hands of the Attorney General. My idea was to introduce later on in the Clause words something like these —"If the scheme provides more than one committee, regard shall he had under the scheme to the need for coordinating the different kinds of education." That, I think, would not lay down a hard and fast rule, but it would be an indication to the local authorities that the Education Department in approving the scheme shire, must not lose sight of the primary object of the scheme, namely to co-ordinate all kinds of education. If an Amendment of that kind lower down in the Clause will meet the views of hon. Gentlemen, shall be prepared to consider the exact form it shall take.

pointed out that by a sub-Clause it was already provided that more than one committee might be appointed on topographic grounds. In the absence of any explanation from the Government, they were bound to assume that the functions of these rival committees would be to deal with separate branches of education in the same area. If two committees were appointed in this, way, there would be three bodies, all within the same area, dealing with education, and they would lose the last hope of coordinating all branches of education under one authority. He did not think the amending words of the First Lord of the Treasury would carry out the object of his hon. friend.

said he regretted to differ from his hon. friend. It was perfectly true that it would be disastrous, from the point of view of all, to separate primary and secondary education, but he reminded the Committee that there were classes of education under the head of technical instruction which were quite away and distinct from anything which was ordinarily called primary or secondary education, though no doubt they came within one ore the other. In his county they had appointed an agricultural committee, which dealt with that portion of technical education which was of importance to those engaged in farming. While a committee of that kind did valuable work in connection with a particular industry, he thought it would be disastrous to separate primary and secondary education in the ordinary acceptation of the words.

said it was of great importance to have continuity and co-ordination through the whole area.

said he agreed generally with what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman opposite.

asked the First Lord of the Treasury whether he would agree to insert the word "district" before the words "Education Committee."

said he did not think he could do that without running counter to the argument of the noble Lord the Member for the Cricklade Division.

said it seemed to him that there was no difficulty, whatever in maintaining the authority of the local education authority, and at the same time, if found necessary, delegating their powers to the different localities.

said there was a way in which all parties could come together and be at one in this matter, and that was a very desirable thing. His own objection to the proposal of the Prime Minister was that there were to be separate committees. Was it not better to say to the local authority that one comprehensive committee ought to be enough, and that there should be one committee, with such subcommittees as might be appointed, to deal with the whole system of education? The experts who were skilled in different branches of education could be put upon the sub-committees.

said that having regard to what had fallen from the Prime Minister, although friction might result between the local education authority and the Board of Education if his proposal were adopted, he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

called upon Mr. Lloyd Morgan (Carmarthen, W.) to move an Amendment standing in his name.

asked whether the following Amendment standing in his name before that of the hon. Member for West Carmarthen was out of order—

'In page 4, line 29, after the second word 'education,' to leave out to end of Clause, and insert t he words 'consisting of members of the Council, who shall hare power to co-opt other person, to serve on such education committee, but the total number of such co-opted members shall be less than half the total number of members of such committee.'"

The Amendment does not read.

said that owing to a clerical error the word "education" was inserted instead of the word "committee."

It ought to come as an Amendment to sub-Clause (a). What the hon. Member wants, so far as I can gather, is that a majority of the committee shall be members of the Council.

said his first object was to get rid of the scheme, because he believed the County Councils were perfectly competent to manage their own educational work.

called upon Mr. Lloyd Morgan to move the Amendment standing in his name, when,

, on a point of order, said he thought that the Amendment of the hon. Member for Saffron Walden should come first.

pointed out that if the Amendment of the hon. Member for Saffron Walden were put and negatived, that would cut out the other Amendments on the same point. Hon. Members could take it as they pleased.

said that the object of his Amendment was to secure that the appointment of the Committee should be for a term of three years, and three years only. He presumed that under the Clause as it stood the committee or committees would become permanent bodies, and that seemed to him to be a most objectionable course. If the committee or committees were really to be representative of the County Councils and the Borough Councils, then it was absolutely necessary that there should be some limit of time for them holding office. They ought not to exist as a committee for a longer period than three years. The Government Bill of 1896 provided that the educational committee was to exist for three yeans, and three years only, and that one-third of the committee should retire every three years. That was a system which ought to be adopted in the present Bill. The County Council in electing the committee under the Act might be under the impression that certain persons who had had no previous experience in educational matters had a right to he elected, but the process of time might prove to them that they had made a mistake and that the members so elected by them were not the best men for educational work. It seemed to him that an unreasonable fetter was placed on the County Council if it were said that they had no power to release these members of the Committee from service upon it, even if they had changed their opinions. He knew of no committee of the County Council at present which became a permanent body, except the county governing body constituted under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, and, although he had no other authority for saying so, he thought that was a mistake. In the case of the Standing Joint Committee of the County Council the members were only appointed for a limited time. The County Councils constantly changed the members of the Standing joint Committee when it was found that they were not carrying out He views of the County Council. That principle ought to be applied to the educational affairs of the county, and if the members of the Education Committee who had been elected to carry out the provisions of the Act failed in the discharge of their ditty or to satisfy the County Council, they ought to give the County Council power to decide that those members should not hold office for more than three years.

said nobody had ever dreamt that these committees should he permanent bodies, and there was nothing in the Bill to suggest that that bud ever been contemplated from the beginning of the scheme. As a matter of fact, the hon. Gentleman proposed by his Amendment to give a much greater security for the permanence of the committees than the ever contemplated. If a majority of the committee were members of the County Council, and ceased to he members of the Council or to be qualified as councillors, they could not continue to be members of the committee. What the Government really desired was that the tenure of office of members or the committee should he precisely what the local education authority should give it, whether long or short. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that there was nothing in the to suggest that these committees were to be of a permanent character, and that the hon. Member proposed by his Amendment to give them a greater security of tenure than was specified or contemplated in the Bill. Their tenure of office, whatever it might be, would have to be determined by the schemes to be framed by the Councils, and approved of by the Board of Education.

thought that the speech of the hon. Baronet had afforded more reason for supporting the Amendment than the remarks of the hon. Member who had moved it. Unless the words of the Amendment were adopted the constitution of the committee might be entirely out of harmony with that of the County Council or the Borough Council. What was going to be done in the case of the members elected to represent the County Council on these committees if the County Council came to an end before the term of office of the education committee expired? The members of the education committee would be hung up between wind and water—appoitited to represent the County Council, and yet not representing the County Council, for some County Councils might have appointed the members of the education committee for terms of four, live, or even six years. He thought common-sense should guide the Committee to the acceptance of the Amendment. They should adopt the practice which was in vogue in County Councils and Municipal Corporations, and fix the term for which the members of the committee were appointed, and make the term so short that they should represent the County Council or the Borough Council, otherwise the education committee might he entirely out of touch with the body which appointed them.

said he would remind the hon. Member that if a member of the education committee was placed on the committee as a member of the Council he would cease to be a member of the committee if he ceased to be a member of the Council. He thought the objection of the hop Member was not a real one.

thought that the words which bad fallen from the Secretary to the Board of Education really aggravated the case. The real point was that the Secretary to the Education Department had now told the Committee that the term of office of the members of the education committee was to be determined in the scheme made by the Council, and approved by the Board of Education. But it was possible that a Council might draw up a scheme, and obtain the consent of the Board of Education co it, which would saddle the education committee with a body of outsiders, which might be a permanent body, and would obtain thereby the control of all the machinery, of education in the county or borough, and which might be out of touch with the opinions mid sentiments of the people who elected the County Council or the Borough Council. It seemed to him that if there were no fixed term of office, and that while elected members of the Council could sit only for a time, outsiders nominated on the Committee might have all unlimited tenure of office, it could only lead to their having education handed over to an irresponsible group of outsiders who would obtain absolute and permanent control of all branches of education ill the district. That would he a very serious state of things. Practically the whole education of the country would pass into the hands of an irresponsible and permanent body wholly out of touch, it might be, with the people concerned.

said he thought that this was one of those minutiæ which it would be wiser to leave to the decision of the County and Borough Councils themselves. Some of these schemes, he thought, were not very well suited to the more general terms adopted in legislation.

asked the Secretary to the Board of Education whether they could understand that during his tenure of office, at any rate, the schemes of the various education authorities would only be approved by the Department if the members of the County Council elected to the education committee were to remain members of that committee merely daring their term of office on the Council. Although he disliked the Clause he would be satisfied if the Government on this Amendment would give an assurance that that would be the policy of the Education Department with regard to these schemes.

said if the number of the members of the County Council on the committee fell short of a majority the intention was that the County Council should elect others.

said he did not understand that the majority of the committee was to consist of members of the County Council.

said there might he a majority unless the County Council determined that there should not be.

said the position was obvious. These committees would perform a very onerous duty, and it might well be that many of the County Councils would not desire to undertake it. He thought it was extremely unlikely that there would be a majority of members of the County Councils on these bodies; they would desire these onerous duties to be performed by somebody else.

pointed out that it did not follow from the words in this Section that the position occupied by a member of the County Council on the committee would cease to be occupied by him when he ceased to he a member of the County Council. The question he put, to which he had not yet got an answer, was whether the Education Department would see to it that members of the committee should only be members of that committee for such time as they were members of the County Council.

expressed the opinion that with regard to the co-option of members, unless some definite time were put down for their co-option, they would remain in office after they ceased to be members of County Councils. The other members, he took it, would go out of office when they lost their position on the County Councils, but the co-opted members would remain.

said he had some hesitation in pronouncing all opinion on the interpretation of the Bill which might bind the Education Department upon questions which had not yet been brought before it, but he might say that, if a certain majority of members of the committee were to be members of the County Council, and the qualification of their membership of the committee was that they should also be members of the County Council, they would cease to be members of the committee on losing that qualification. The duration of the term of office for the co-opted members of the committee would have to be provided for in the scheme. It would be the business of the local authority to provide for that. If they did not do so, it would be considered an accidental omission on their part, and the Education Board would call their attention to the matter.

asked to have it made perfectly clear by some words in the Bill that if a member of the committee lost his qualification as a member of the County Council lie should also lose his position on the committee. He pointed out that a great many members of a committee who were also members of the County Council might be elected to the County Council on other issues altogether, for the purpose of continuing them on the committee on account of their having done good service. What hon. Members on this side wanted was quite clear, but what they wished to hear from the hon. Baronet opposite was whether their wishes would be carried out by the insertion of words into the Bill.

said he thought it was important to know whether there was going to be a term to the membership of members of the committee who were not also members of the County Council. The members appointed by the County Council would be representatives of the rateyayers, but the co-opted members would be experts, and the conduct of those gentlemen might not always commend itself to the County Council or the general body of the district. They could not always anticipate how men would work. Because they took an interest in education, they need not necessarily be good administrators. Therefore he wished to know whether it was clear that there was a term for the membership of these gentlemen.

said he thought he had clearly stated that the Government never contemplated that these co-opted or added members of the committee should have any condition of permanency attached to their appointment. The local authorities, he presumed, would fix the term of the appointment, which it might be desirable to make longer or shorter in some cases than in others, according to the varying conditions of the different local bodies. But if the local authority omitted to fix any term, he would consider that that was an accidental omission, and it would be the duty of the Board of Education to call attention to it.

said he understood his hon. friend's idea to be that these schemes should provide for a short term. Personally, he would prefer three years. Would the hon. Gentleman say that the term should be three years?

remarked that every County Council Committee was re-appointed every year, and unless this Education Committee was to be in a different position from the other committees of the Council no difficulty wm mid arise in this respect. There need be no term of three years, or term of two years; let it be like the other committees.

endorsed the statement of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and deprecated putting every minute detail into the Bill. Under the existing law, the Technical Instruction Act, it was provided that the County Councils could co -opt their committee members from outside the County Council, and the election of all committees was settled by the Standing Orders of the County Council. If every minute detail was put into time Bill, there would be nothing for bye-laws or Standing Orders to settle.