To ask the President of the Board of Trade if the Government will consider the advisability of publishing yearly a compendium of trade within the Empire; and a summary of the world's trade. (Answered by Hr. Gerald Balfour.) The annual statistical abstracts of the United Kingdom, the Colonies, India, and foreign countries give a great deal of information bearing on the subject of the world's trade and of trade within the Empire. I will, however, consider whether it is possible, having regard to the demands upon the staff of the Department, to do something further in the direction desired by the hon. Member.

To ask the Lord Advocate if he will state how many houses have been erected in the Island of Lewis, under the bye-laws as to the regulation of buildings which were made by the Lewis District Committee of the County Council of Ross and Cromarty, and approved by the Local Government Board in December, 1900. (Answered by Mr. Graham Murray.) I am informed that twenty-two houses have been erected under the bye-laws referred to by the hon. Member.

To ask the Postmaster General if he would give the name, salary, and nationality of the sorting clerk and telegraphist appointed to the postmaster-ship of Edgeworthst own, and the number of applications received from Irishmen. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) I have appointed Air. W. H. Killinder, sorting clerk and telegraphist at Galway, to be postmaster of Edgeworthstown. His pay as sorting clerk and telegraphist is 38s. a week, and in addition he has a suptervising allowance of 6s. a week. I know nothing of his nationality.

To ask the Postmaster General if the postmastership of Newbridge was advertised in the Post Office Circular in the ordinary way; if so, what was the date of the circular; and will he state the nature of the appointment held by the officer selected and his qualifications for a postmaster-ship.(Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The vacancy was not advertised. The officer who was appointed to be postmaster was a lobby officer, who had also had long and varied experience in the Army post office in Soul h Africa.

To ask the Postmaster General if he will state when it is intended to fill the vacancies existing in the supervising clerks and assistant superintendents' class in the Dublin sorting office; whether selections will be made from members of the Dublin staff; and if a circular has been issued to surveyors inviting applications for the positions from provincial officers.(Answered by Hr. Austen Chamberlain.) The question of filling the vacancies referred to is under consideration, and I hope that it will be settled very shortly. The claims of members of the Dublin staff to promotion will have the fullest consideration. No such circular as the hon. Member described has been issued.

To ask the Postmaster General whether, in view of the decision that the relatives of supervising officers are not to be appointed to the same offices, he will state why a sorting clerk and telegraphist at Liverpool has been transferred to the Salisbury Post Office, at which town his father holds the position of postmaster. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The officer in question has not been transferred to the Salisbury Post Office, nor is there any proposal to transfer him, but he has been allowed to exchange places for a period of four months with an officer employed at Salisbury.

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can give the names of the unions in England and Wales which have established village communities, or grouped cottage homes, for Poor Law children; the number of children accommodated in each village community; and the inclusive cost per head per annum (both establishment and maintenance charges). (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The following statement gives the names of the unions in which the guardians have provided or are providing accommodation of the kind referred to, with the number of children accommodated in each case. I have no information which would enable me to state the average cost per child per annum.

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, seeing that under the present working of the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act. 1896, the last union employing an officer has to pay the whole of his superannuation allowance without recovering any portion from the union or unions by whom the officer has bee previously employed, he will consider the propriety of the formation of a central fund for the receipt of all superannuation contributions and payment of all superannuation allowances, such fund being raised and worked on the principles of an insurance company. (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) In answer to a similar Question a few weeks ago I stated that there would be many difficulties in adopting such a scheme as that suggested, and that I could not at present give any promise to propose legislation to give effect to it. I added, however, that the whole subject should receive my careful consideration.

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will explain the meaning or the Admiralty Regulation No. 901, when the match is burning, it is always to be over water in tubs, and in charge of a responsible person, and ,ay whether burning matches are still used in connection with any service pattern of gun now in use in the Royal Navy. (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) Though not now used in any service pattern of gun now in use in the Royal Navy, slow match is still supplied as part of the stores for use in manned and armed boats, for kindling fires, firing rockets, etc. The precautions laid down in the article quoted from the Admiralty Regulations are therefore still in force.

To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state the amount of gold remitted from India since February this year, and to what purposes these remittances have been applied; the sums of gold now held in India in the Currency Reserves, the Government Treasuries, and the Gold Reserve Fund respectively; whether any of the latter is deposited with the Presidency Banks or otherwise utilised in aid of commerce; the number of rupees (including value of subsidiary coins) issued since the beginning of this year; the total amount of silver imported during the same period, how much of this has been on Government account, and whether this portion is subject to the 5 per cent. import duty; the present amount of the cash balances in India and England respectively; and what has been, since 1st March, the average weekly amount lent out from the Indian Office Treasury in aid of the money market here. (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The amount of gold remitted by the Government of India to this country since February last is £500,000, which has been added to the balances held by the Secretary of State in Council. The amount of gold held by the Government of India on the 15th October was as follows: Currency Reserve, £5,748,000; Government Treasuries, £88,000; Gold Reserve Fund, £175,000; total, £6,011,000. I have no reason to believe that any of this gold is deposited with the Presidency banks. If it were so deposited it would, of course, be necessary to transfer from, the banks to the Currency Reserve or the Treasuries an equivalent amount in rupees, a course which, in all probability, would hinder commerce rather than aid it; but for a considerable time, whenever the mercantile community has desired gold in exchange for rupees, the Government of India has made its own stock freely available. The total coinage of silver in India from 1st April till 31st August, 1902, was Rs.7,38,63,606 (£4,925,000). But this includes the coinage of British dollars for use in Hong Kong and the Straits Settlements, the rupees coined for Native States, and the subsidiary coinage for use in British India. The rupees coined for Native States amounted to about Rs.80,00,000; but I am not yet in possession of exact figures on this point. The imports of silver into India during the period just mentioned were as follows: On private account, Rs.5,04,47,857; on Government account, Rs.51,830. It is provided by law that no customs duty is leviable on goods belonging to the Government of India. The latest figures for the cash balances in India and England are as follows: In India on the 31st of August, Rs.16,93,00,000; in England on the 5th of November, £5,062,228. The average weekly amount of loan from the Home Treasury during the present financial year has been. £5,100,000.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether an officer gains any advantage, pecuniary or otherwise, by qualifying as interpreter. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Under Article 614 of the Pay Warrant an officer gets a reward of £125 for qualifying as interpreter in Russian,. Arabic, or Turkish, and £75 on passing, a further test examination within the-next five years. Under Article 267 of the Pay Warrant an allowance is granted for employment as interpreter in the field.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether officers have now to supply themselves with barrack furniture, or whether it is provided for them. (Answered by Air. Secretary Brodrick.) The quarters of all unmarried regimental officers who join the Army on or after the 1st December, 1902, will be furnished at the public expense. Officers' messes at home will be furnished when necessary as soon as possible after this date. A rent will be charged at the rate of 2d. per day for field officers, and ld. per day for other officers. All officers will pay a further 1d. a day where furniture is supplied to messes.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that several officers of the Militia have recently received Army rank for services with regular troops in the United Kingdom during the South African War, like consideration has been, or will be, extended to officers of Volunteers whose services were accepted under like conditions. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) It has already been decided to grant temporary rank to Volunteer officers serving at home, and steps are being taken to carry this out.

To ask the Secretary of State fur War whether the Report of the Departmental Committee on the reorganisation of the Works Department of the War Office has yet been made; and, if so, can he say when he proposes to commence the work of reorganisation, if any is recommended. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Committee has reported, and the Report is being carefully considered.

To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether loans granted to the Boers in the Harrismith district of South Africa are partly in money and partly in kind; if so, will he state what value is placed respectively on oxen and mules thus supplied; are the animals submitted to examination by a veterinary surgeon prior to the transaction being completed, and is a warranty given that they are sound. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) Loans to Boers are made, as a rule, one-third in cash and two-thirds in kind, to ensure the re-stocking of the farms instead of money being applied to the payment of debts. The values placed on oxen and mules are the cost prices, so far as can be ascertained, without deductions for loss or cost of forage. The animals are not submitted for veterinary examination, but passed on to farmers in exactly the same condition as received from the military, all sick being excluded. No warranty is given by the military on receipt of the animals by the Colonial Government, nor by the Government on transfer to the farmers.

To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether, in the event of the Education Bill now before Parliament becoming law, school teachers will be precluded from becoming members of a County Council or members of the council of a county borough; and, if they are not precluded from the membership of these Councils, will they be allowed to serve on the new education authority.(Answered by Sir William Anson.) Teachers in schools provided by the local education authority will be clearly disqualified from being members of the County Council, Borough Council, or Urban District Council, which is the local education authority. This is the effect, as regards County Councils and Borough Councils, of Section 12 (a) of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, and Sections 2 and 75 of The Local Government Act, 1888; and, as regards Urban District Councils, of Section 46 (d) of the Local Government Act, 1894, which also applies to the London Borough Councils. It is clearly fair that teachers in schools not provided by the local education authority should be placed in the same position in this respect as teachers in schools provided by that authority.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the consent of the Governor of the Transvaal has been given or refused to the ordinance of the Johannesburg Town Council, proposing to raise the local rates on an assessment of the land values of the town.

So far as I am aware the levying of rates in Johannesburg is at present governed by the Administrator's Proclamation of the 13th June last, which I shall be glad to show to the hon. Member if he desires it and will call at the Colonial Office.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies why the speeches of the Colonial Premiers delivered at the conference which took place at the Colonial Office are not given in the Blue-book which has been issued; and whether it is proposed to issue supplementary Papers giving full details of the proceedings.

I am obliged to the hon. Member for giving me an opportunity of contradicting some very extraordinary misstatements that appeared in a London daily paper. If he will refer to the first page of the Blue-book he will find the answer to his question. The fact is that the reason for not publishing a full report of the proceedings with the speeches of the Colonial Prime Ministers, was that objection was taken that it would be a breach of faith to publish what had been from the first treated as confidential. The Prime Ministers unanimously agreed that the speeches of the members of His Majesty's Government and certain Papers should be given. This has been done and no further Papers will be published.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the advisability of granting special facilities for promotion to commissions of those who, when serving as Militia Officers at the time that the granting of commissions without examination ceased resigned their commissions and enlisted in order to go on active service in South Africa, seeing that many of their brother officers who remained at home in the Militia obtained commissions before the close of the war without examination.

I am afraid that in view of the large number of supernumerary officers in the Army it will not be possible to grant any more direct commissions to any class of individuals.

Is the right hon. Gentleman willing to grant some special facilities for these young men, who are very hardly treated?

What does the hon. Gentleman mean by special facilities?

A modified examination.

We cannot modify the examination. We can only give service marks.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of appointing a Committee to inquire into the position, pay, and allowances of the combatant officers of the Army.

My hon. and gallant friend's suggestion would require to be supported by some reasons for instituting such an inquiry. No change has taken place in the position of officers in the Army of recent years, and the demand for commissions shows that it is impossible to satisfy the large number of candidates available. Efforts are being made, especially in the cavalry, to reduce officers' expenses, but I fear I cannot hold out any hope of a genera reconsideration of the pay and pensions of officers.

The Army pay of subaltern officers has been the same for the last hundred years, and: is quite inadequate to the position they are expected to maintain.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is the intention of the Government to abolish the system of transferring the details of regiments from the depots of the territorial regiment to outlying barracks; whether this arrangement has been condemned by the military authorities; and whether he will consider the advisability of purchasing the disused gaol at Omagh, which could be used as barracks, and obviate the necessity of sending the details to Enniskillen.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of sending more troops to Enniskillen, seeing that three of the finest regiments were raised there?

The arrangement to which the hon. Member alludes has not been condemned. It is in accordance with the principles of military administration to send recruits away from their depots as soon as their physical training is complete, in order that their field training may he taken up. There is no intention of increasing the barrack accommodation at Omagh.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the limit of age for reenlistment of time-expired men.

The limit of age is thirty years for ordinary Army re-enlistments, and forty years for the Royal Garrison regiment. There is no limit of age for the reservists rejoining the Colours under Special Army Order of 22nd September last.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that 80 per 1,000 of an average battalion are employed inn civilian duties, he will consider the advisability of trying the experiment tried in the Garrison Artillery of thus employing reservists in the Line.

Efforts are being made to provide such relief as may be possible, but my hon. and gallant friend will recognise that any general change would cause immense expenditure.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware of any instances in the Navy of ammunition intended for practice firing being thrown overboard.

I have been unable to trace any instances of the practice referred to, at any rate in the last twenty years. If such instances have occurred they are unknown to the Admiralty, but if the hon. Member will call my attention to any specific case it will be investigated.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the proportion of able seamen and boys in the Channel Fleet; and whether he will give the proportion of the two classes on board H.M.S. "Magnificent," and the number of ordinary seamen.

The following is the proportion of able seamen amid boys in the Channel Fleet: Able seamen, 79; boys, 21. In H.M.S. "Magnificent" the two classes are in the proportion, of able seamen, 77: boys, 2:1. The number of ordinary seamen is 176, and if these were included in the calculation the proportion of seamen to boys in this ship would be 89½ to 10½, which is the same as the proportion of seamen to boys in the Channel Fleet as a whole.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any communication has been received from the Belgian Government with regard to the Brussels Sugar Convention since that instrument was completed; whether any of the signatory Powers have so far decided to, or declined to, ratify the Convention; and whether any proposals have been made to extend the time for ratification.

The Belgian Government have communicated to us the announcement that the ratification of His Majesty the King of the Belgians has been deposited. No Power has declined to ratify, and we have no reason for anticipating that any of the Powers who signed will refuse to do so. The reply to the last part of the Question is in the negative.

Has any change been made in the date of the ratification?

Not that I am aware of.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the rate of the bounty paid by the Province of Ontario on the export of beet sugar; whether any of such sugar comes into the United Kingdom; and whether it is proposed to take any action in the matter in connection with the Brussels Sugar Convention.

No bounty is given by Ontario on the export of beet sugar. By an Act of 1901 a sum of £47,000 was set aside for the temporary payment of a bounty of ½ cent. per lb. on refined beet sugar produced during the first two years of a factory's operations, and of cent. per lb. on the product of the third year. The exports from Ontario are not separately stated, but no considerable quantity of sugar that benefited by the bounty can have come to the United Kingdom, since the total export of Canadian sugar (other than maple) to this country during 1901–2 was only sixty tons. Under the Brussels Sugar Convention it would be the duty of the Permanent Commission to examine and report to the Powers as to the existence of bounties in various countries. In no event, however, would His Majesty's Government be required to penalise the sugar of a British Colony.

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the attention of the Foreign Office has been called to the statement made by Dr. Daneff, the Bulgarian Prime Minister, a few days ago, to the effect that all the Powers, with only one exception, were willing to demand the introduction of reforms into Macedonia, and were engaged in discussing the best means of intervention at the Porte; whether he has any information respecting this statement; and can he state which of the Powers are taking part in the negotiation.

I have seen the statement in the newspapers. His Majesty's Government have not received any report on the subject, and they have no information bearing out the statement mentioned.

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he can state the estimated amount of loss to British and Irish farmers by the last outbreak of foot and mouth disease due to importation of cattle from abroad, and the decrease in numbers in consequence of that outbreak.

I understand my hon. friend to refer to the epidemic of foot and mouth disease in Great Britain which lasted from 1880 to 1884, when it was practically stamped out. During that period some 336,000 cattle, 370,000 sheep, and 37,000 swine were reported as having been attacked with the disease, and it was estimated that the direct loss caused to stockowners could not have been less than £2,500,000.

I beg to ask the President of the local Government Board if he will state whether, under the Local Government (Transfer of Powers) Bill, powers of Government Departments could be transferred to a County Council in opposition to the views of the Departments or of the local authorities concerned.

Under Section 10 of the Local Government Act, 1888, the Local Government Board can make Provisional Orders for transferring to the Councils of counties and county boroughs certain powers and duties of Departments of the Government and other bodies. This, however, can at present only be done generally. The object of the Bill is to enable the transfer to be made as respects the Council of a particular county or borough where the circumstances may render this desirable, without its being necessary to deal with the Councils of all the counties and counts' boroughs. The consent of the Government Departments or other bodies whose powers were proposed to be transferred would still be required, and the Order would not take effect until it was confirmed by Parliament. Under the Bill particular cases could be met where there is no objection to the transfer on the part of the borough or other district Councils who would be affected. In the event of there being substantial opposition on the part of those Councils to the proposal, I should not contemplate making a transfer.

I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether, in view of the complaints from Dr. Henry, of the Gaelic Association, London, as to the non-delivery for six or seven days, in the county of Sligo, of letters and postcards addressed in Irish, he will consider the advisability of insisting on persons obtaining Post Office appointments in Ireland having some knowledge of the Irish language.

In my opinion there is no sufficient reason for requiring a knowledge of the Irish language from entrants into the Post Office service in Ireland.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Irish language movement is a great and growing one, and not to be trifled with?

I beg to ask the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the postal and telegraphic business in Lurgan is carried on in temporary premises which are in a condition dangerous to health; and what steps have been taken to proceed with the erection of the new post office buildings on the site purchased two years ago.

There is no reason to suppose that the temporary Post Office at Lurgan is in a condition dangerous to health of the contrary the health of the staff is stated to have improved considerably since the office was occupied. It is expected that the new building on the site w Inch was acquired in August, 1901, will be begun next year, if the Board of Public Works obtain the necessary funds from Parliament.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these temporary premises are simply a hoarding used for pasting up Crimes Act Proclamations?

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at Sligo Quarter Sessions on 30th October last Mr. Robert Sproule was granted a decree for £6 for damage done to a mare, his property; and that it appeared from the evidence that the plaintiff could not get anyone to work for him because he was a Protestant and refused to join the United Irish League; and will he state what steps, if any, the Government intend taking in the matter.

Compensation was awarded, as stated, to Mr. Sproule, whose evidence was to the effect mentioned. The County Council has appealed, I understand, against the decision of the County Court judge, and I ant precluded, therefore, from discussing the case.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the case of Mr. James Casey, Ballaghaderreen, who was refused a transfer of a publican's licence at the last Boyle Quarter Sessions; and whether, in view of the recommendation of the County Court Judge to the Lord Lieutenant to exercise his dispensing powers in this case, he can state what action will be taken in the matter.

No representations have been made to the Lord Lieutenant in this matter. If a recommendation of the character suggested were made, it would receive the attention due to the source from which it came. But I ought to observe that the number of public houses in this locality is already very large.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on 19th July last the Longford Board of Guardians, on the Motion of the Chairman, decided to take no contracts except from members of the United Irish League, and that a similar motion was agreed to at the last meeting of the Sligo Rural District Council; and will he say what action he proposes to take in the matter.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if the attention of the Local Government Board has been called to the action of Mayo County Council in giving the printing contract to Mr. Walshe, Ballina, at £140 5s., though Mr. Thomas Chapman, Athlone, tendered at £85; and will he say what action they propose to take.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at the meeting of the Granard Board of Guardians, held to consider the half-yearly contracts, the secretary of the United Irish League Branch was in attendance with his list of members, and the names of those tendering were read out, and the preference in the contracts was given to those who appeared on the United Irish League list; and will he say whether he proposes to take action in the matter.

My attention has been called to the several matters mentioned in these Questions. I can best reply by saying that proceedings will be instituted by the Crown against all local bodies who, in breach of the public trust they are elected to discharge, endeavour to promote the pecuniary interests of any political society, or of the members of such a society. This being so, my hon. friend will, I think, agree with me that it is unnecessary to discuss the separate instances brought to my notice of a breach of the public trust.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the remarks of the president at the annual meeting of the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, to the effect that the entire Irish dispensary medical service stood in need of reform; and whether it is the intention of the Government to promote legislation in this matter.

I have seen a newspaper report of the remarks of the President of the Royal College of Surgeons on the occasion referred to. The matters discussed by the President are not such as can properly be dealt with by means of a reply to a Question.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds the Congested Districts Board have advertised for sale the former mansion of Lord Dillon at Loughglynn; and why have the private offers been declined which were made to turn tins residence into a local technical and agricultural college.

The premises have been advertised for sale in pursuance of the Board's desire to obtain as large a price as possible for them. The Board has expressed its readiness to entertain favourably any proposal for applying the premises to a useful public purpose. But no definite proposal of that nature has so far been received, and no private offers have been declined.

Why was the Roscommon offer refused?

No definite proposal has been made, and it has not been ref used therefore.

If they apply for it will they get it?

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the case of Calderwood v. M'Curdy, heard at the Lifford Quarter Sessions, County Donegal, on 30th October last and whether, in view of the police evidence on the occasion, it is proposed to take any action under the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act to secure the ends of justice in this matter.

Calderwood sued M' Curdy of £5 damages and assault on the ground that his hat had been forcibly taken form him. The judge gave a decree for £1 and indicated that, in his opinion, the matter might well have been settled out of Court.

Did not the prosecution counsel stat that the Crimes Act should be applied to this case?

NO, Sir.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether him attention has been directed to the unanimous resolution of Irish Poor Law Association in favour of a superannuation Bill on the basis of the liability of the ratepayers being limited to a national rate of a farthing in the pound; and whether he is prepared to afford facilities for the passing into law of a measure framed on these lines.

Yes, Sir. But I do not propose to introduce any fresh legislation doting this Session.

, in moving the Amendment standing in Ins name, said ha did not desire to add much to the statement he made on the previous day as to the purport of this Amendment, but he would remind the Committee that the object was to make it perfectly clear that the Municipal or County Council was the local education authority; that the Education Committee wits a consultative committee; that the local education authority was bound to consult the committee, but was not bound to take its advice, or even to wait for that advice, it the advice were delayed or not forthcoming; and that to meet the convenience of the educational work in an area the County Council had nearly unlimited power of delegating its duties to that committee, except in one very important respect, viz., the raising a rate or borrowing money. His hon. friend the Member for East Somerset proposed to strike out the words which would require the local education authority, before exercising its powers, to consider the report, if any, of its education committee. He thought it would, for general reasons, be undesirable to omit Secretary to the these words. He took it that his hon. friend was principally moved by fear last there should by any unnecessary delay in carrying out the educational work of the area. For his own part he thought the words "if any" guarded the local education authority against that contingency; and when matters were urgent the local education authority might proceed without the report of its committee. The powers of delegation which the Government proposed to give were very considerable, and, although at the outset of the scheme there might be difficulties and delays, yet the local education authority and its committee would soon learn what amount of delegation was necessary for the proper administration of an area. But there were two more important considerations than these. The Education Committee was simply a consultative committee. Every matter was to stand referred to it, but the local education authority was not bound to take its advice, It was important that the local education authority should have placed at its disposal the service of the persons best fitted to advise it in the area with which it dealt. Was it desirable then to strike out words which brought home to the Council that it should, except in urgent cases, consider the report of the Education Committee? He had no doubt in his own mind that the County and Borough Councils would be very desirous of getting the best advice and of consulting their committees on all the points on which they were bound to consult them, and would, as a rule, be desirous of taking that advice, even at the cost of some delay in waiting for it. He had no doubt, also, that there would be found throughout the area persons capable of giving advice, who would, although they were employed in a merely consultative capacity, be willing to give their services in that respect. He could not help fearing that if it were distinctly set down in the Bill that the local education authority was under no obligation even to consider the report of its committee it would be a distinct discouragement to the sort of people we wanted on these Education Committees. One other consideration he would press upon the Committee. The omission which his hon. friend proposed carried with it the suggestion that the Education Committee had executive powers, that everything was to stand referred to them; and nothing was said about the Council exercising its power with or without the report of the committee. The Amendment, he thought, would be subject to the charge of ambiguity on a point which he had been particular to clear up the day before—namely, that the executive in educational matters was the local education authority and not the Education Committee. He begged to move.

did not hesitate to say that the Amendment, which almost amounted to a new Clause, would be welcomed on that side of the House. He had placed on the Paper Amendments identical in form almost, and certainly identical in substance, When the Bill was first considered, hon. Members on that side were alarmed at what appeared to them to be the too large measure of independence given to the Education Committees, and there was a general wish on that side of the House to modify that provision. There were three models which might have been followed in regard to the relations of a body like a County Council, or the Council of a large borough, with regard to a committee. There was the ordinary committee of a County or Borough Council, which had no executive authority, but was simply advisory—a body which could not act on its own initiative but had to refer everything it did to the parent body for confirmation and action; next, there were statutory committees such as the Watch Committees, which were practically independent in regard to police, and the Asylum Committees, which represented various Councils and Boroughs, and enjoyed an exceedingly large independence. There were also Joint Committees controlling the county police. The last of these examples seemed to have inspired the promoters of the Bill. In addition, however, there was another class of committees, and hon. Members on that side of the House wondered why the Government had not taken them as models, since they existed chiefly in regard to educational matters. Accordingly, the Amendment which he placed on the Paper was practically a revival of the words of the Technical Instruction Act, and he was glad to say that on that principle there seemed now to be something like agreement. They had now had ten or eleven years' experience of the working of that Act, and the most satisfactory result had accrued. They were indebted to the Government for having met the views of the House, and of a large body of the public opinion outside, which desired, while giving full latitude to committees to deal with small matters, that in regard to greater questions, such as the fixing of rates, the borrowing of money and capital expenditure on the schools, they should follow the precedent of the Technical Instruction Act.

asked the Government if there was any objection to the insertion of the words "except the power of raising a rate or borrowing money" after the word "Act." If the committee was not to have the power of raising money it should be clearly stated in the Clause. Personally, he had always been greatly in favour of the County Council being made the local authority, because he hoped it would tend to economy, but he was not quite sure about the committees to be appointed under this Bill.

said he had no objection to the Amendment. It was quite clear that the education authority ought to be consulted as to the amount of money that was required to carry out the schemes to which the education authority was asked to agree. No doubt the question of raising a rate or borrowing money was a matter which did not concern the committee at all.

asked for a legal definition of the words "stand referred" in the Amendment of the Secretary to the Board of Education. It appeared to him the obvious meaning was that the local education authority would have no power to act in any matter at all until that matter had been referred to and dealt with by the Education Committee. If that were so, then he thought the additional Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford was necessary.

said the intention was that before action was taken on any matter, opportunity must be given to the local committee to, report on it.

That means that under no circumstances can the local education authority take independent action.

That is just what it does not mean.

I certainly understood the Attorney General to say that their action was to be dependent on having a report from the committee. They are not to act without first sending the matter to the committee.

said they were bound to send the matter to the Education Committee, which could report if it chose, but the local education authority's action in the absence of a report would be quite untrammelled.

Is it a condition precedent to the action of the education authority that they should send it to the committee? Can they act without sending it to the committee?

The effect of the word is that ipso facto the matter shall be referred to the Education Committee in practice, with or without their report the local education authority can take such action as it many think fit.

said that under the Clause there were two functions—one of reference, the other of delegation. As he understood it, the local education authority would be able to delegate certain powers and duties inherited under Clause 6 from School Boards and school attendance Committees to the committee, a delegation which would, have, he presumed, to be approved by the Board of Education. Then there would be left certain other powers and duties w Inch came under the head of "reference." The committee would be asked to report on these referred matters before the local education authority could take action. The Bill put the Reference before the Delegation. He thought it should be the other way about.

They need not necessarily report.

took it that the first part of the Amendment gave the committee a "right of audience," such as had been granted in schemes to the headmasters of great schools, enabling them to attend and place their veiws before the governing bodies. Assuming that that was the correct interpretation of the Amendment, the local education authority would have the entire power of delegation, and if it did so delegate its duties the committee would be able to act immediately, possessing as it did, full authority from the superior body. Although the word "consultation" had been used in the debate, he thought the powers possessed by the committee would be more analogous to those enjoyed by Corporation committees which dealt with building, sanitary, and kindred matter. The Council or Corporation reserved to itself the power of conforming the action of the Council, and that, he took it, would be the case with the committee set up under this Clause.

said he was in favour of the principle of the Government Amendment.

Order, order, The Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford is now before the Committee.

We are quite willing to accept that. We had Letter do so, and thus clear the way for the discussing of the Amendment of my hon. friend the Secretary to the Board of Education.

thought the words of the Amendment moved by his right hon. friend the Member for Sleaford were totally unnecessary. He desired to make two or three observations on the Amendment which was proposed by the Secretary to the Board of Education.

Order, order! I think we had better dispose of the Amendment to the Amendment first.

contended that the words of the right hon. Gentleman did not improve the proposal of the Government at all, because they were acts which could only be clone by the Council and would not come under the reference as a matter of course.

said that although the change was not a very great one it was in the right direction.

said his right hon. friend was hardly correct in saying that the powers reserved to the County Council were broader than those contained in the Amendment. He understood that the object of the Government was to give a free hand to the local education authority in the raising of the rates and the borrowing of the money.

said if this committee was not to consider the raising of the rate and how much money was to be borrowed, what could it do? The result of putting in these words would be that this committee could not consider the rate to be levied to carry out its own policy, and its own recommendations would have to be referred to the Finance Committee. What harm could there be in a committee of this sort considering their own expenditure? Why should they not be allowed to consider it?

contended that in the event of the committee not reporting, the local education authority would not be able to raise a rate to carry out the liability imposed upon them under Clause G. He heartily agreed with the Amendment.

said that as the matter stood, except as to the raising of the rates and the borrowing of money, all the powers conferred upon the local education authority must be referred automatically to the Education Committee before any executive action could be taken by the County Council. He did not see why this should be made obligatory. That the County Council, whether in the case of provided or non-provided schools, would take the opportunity of inquiring from the Education Committe what its advice would be was practically certain, but he could conceive cases in which the local authority would have to act with speed. Surely it would be better for the smooth working of the Act that it should not be compelled in all cases, except in financial matters, to refer to the Council but should exercise its own discretion. He begged to move.

said this Amendment struck very deep at the object of the Bill. They desired to obtain for the local authority the best assistance the district could afford. If people who could give such assistance were willing to serve it was important that the advice of the Education Committee would come form a body which had the whole educational policy of the area before it. Everything ought to be referred to the Education Committee, and then they would be able to give such advice as the local education authority might very well follow.

said that this question depended upon the constitution they were going to make of these advisory bodies. If, as a great many hon. Members desired, a large proportion of the Education Committee consisted id members of the council, then they would have the advantage of the knowledge mid experience of those members. If they were going to give, as they ought to give on these advisory bodies, a majority which would consist of members of the Council, then they would have a voice in any decision which the Council might take. If they were really going to give to the Council power which the education authority might to have, they ought not to exclude them from any independent action in the first instance which they thought fit to take. It was an unnecessary derogation from their authority to say they should never act without referring this matter to the authority. Therefore, why exclude them altogether except under circumstances in which the supreme education authority might think fit to take the matter into its own hands. One could conceive local circumstances which would make it highly desirable that the education authority, in some instances, should keep its power to deal with these matters on its own initiation.

said his objection was not so much to the word "shall" but to "stand." Suppose, for instance, that there was a complaint of the violation of the Conscience Clause in a certain school. That complaint would have to be forwarded to the Education Committee, and they might smother it if they desired and not report it to the Council at all. The Council, having no report, would have no knowledge of the question which had been raised, and it would take away from the Council the power of hearing an appeal on some question that had been raised. He did not wish action to be taken without reference to the committee unless it had failed to deal with some matter. His objection was not to the word "shall," but to the word "stand." He suggested that it might be altered to "shall be referral," for that would enable the. Council to send the appeal with an instruction to deal with it. In this House they sometimes gave an instruction to a Committee, but by the wording put forward by the Government he took it that action of that kind would be impossible if the word "Stand" remained in the Clause. It would then be within the official knowledge of the Council, before being referred to the Committee, so that if the committee failed to do their duty in reporting on the matter, the Council would be able to take action to remedy the neglect of the committee.

said there was no doubt that in the vast majority of cases the Comity Council would consult the Education Committee, but there might be cases where the County Council would desire to act at once without a reference of that kind. Other- wise a matter which must be disposed of in a few minutes would have to come before the County Council at one of its quarterly meetings. By the Amendment as it now stood it would be referred to the Education Committee, and probably, owing to the technicalities, it would not come before the County Council until a meeting three months after that. As a matter of fact there might be instances in which it would be highly desirable that the County Council should act at once. He hoped the Government would accept the Amendment that "shall stand" should be altered to "may be."

asked the Attorney General whether the words as they stood might have the effect of excluding from the knowledge of the council any matter referred to the Education Committee.

It must come before the County Council.

said he understood that nothing could come before the Council except upon a report from the committee. The ordinary course in the conduct of the proceedings of public bodies was that a matter should in the first instance come before the council. What would be the effect in the first instance of these words?

said the matter would be communicated to the clerk of the council and he would be bound to send it to the Education Committee. The committee might report, and if they reported, of course, that report would be considered, but if they did not report at all the local education authority might act entirely for themselves. [An HON. MEMBER "No."] The words were "and the council, before exercising any such prayers, shall consider the report (if any) of the Education Committee with respect to the matter in question." [An HON. MEMBER "They are not bound to report."] The committee might not report, but he apprehended that they always would report. The Government had provided for the possibility of the Education Committee delaying action. If after a reasonable time there was no report, the County Council would take the matter into their own hands and deal with it.

said the explanation given on behalf of the Government was better than the statement in the Bill. There was nothing in the Amendment that would indicate that the lapse of time made any difference at all. All it said was that the Council "shall consider the report (if any)." What was a reasonable time? If the council had absolute power why should not that be stated here? One thing was clear from the statement of the Attorney General, and that was that the Council had no initiative in the matter, Suppose a letter came with regard to the Conscience Clause, or it might be with regard to the affairs of a voluntary school, it would be sent by the clerk of the council to the committee. It would stand referred to the committee without any action on the part of the Council. He did not think that should be the case at all. He asked the Prime Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary to state whether the council would have the power of giving an instruction to this committee with regard to the carrying out of their functions. According to the Amendment the report of the committee was a condition precedent on any action on the part of the council, and according to the Attorney General they could only act either after a report had been received, or after a reasonable time had elapsed without the committee reporting. How could they give an instruction if that was the case?

They delegate.

said they could only act in the two contingencies stated by the Attorney General, and if that was the case they could not give an instruction to the committee at all.

said the matter might be referred to the Education Committee with an instruction accompanying the delegating power to act for the Council.

said it did not come before the council at all. That was exactly the difference between his hon. friend's Amendment and that of the hon. Baronet. The hon. Baronet's Amendment said—

"All mat lets relating to the exercise by the Council of their powers under this Act shall stand referred to the Education Committee, and the Council, before exercising any such powers, shall consider the report (if any)of the Education Committee with respect to the matter in question."

said the hon. Member's Amendment would do exactly the opposite of what he desired to have done, namely, to expedite matters.

said that what he proposed was "shall he" instead of "shall stand."

said the Amendment before the Committee was to insert the words "may be." By adopting these words they would get into the very difficulty with regard to delay which they wished to avoid. He supported the view that the words of the Clause should be "shall stand" and not "may be."

asked whether the Government would be prepared to accept the word "be" instead of "stand."

It is making two bites at the cherry.

said he wished leave to withdraw his Amendment.

said that if the words "shall be" were in the Bill he understood that all matters would be referred by the Council to the committee, who would then proceed to take action. If the Attorney General were to say that the alteration of "stand" to "be" would have that effect, he would be satisfied.

said that if "stand" was used, the reference was dogmatic, but if "be" was used it only imposed another step.

said it was quite a common thing for a local authority to instruct their clerk to refer a matter sent to him to a committee.

said that the difficulty of his hon. friend the Member for the Northwich Division evidently was that the County Council might not know the matter that was referred to—that the machinery of the Amendment would be much too automatic. Was there anything in the words of the Amendment which would prevent a general instruction being given to the clerk?

thought it was clear that the Council might order their clerk to inform them at their next meeting of all that had been done.

Would they discuss it?

Certainly.

said that for the first time in the history of local government and legislation upon it by this House, it was proposed to say that the local authority should not deal with any question of which it was the ultimate arbiter and judge, until a subordinate portion of the authority had first considered it. In no other branch of local Government dealt with by any of the great municipal corporations or County Councils of the country, or by any poor-law authorities of the country could they find laid down in any legislation that the major authority should not deal with any business until a subordinate portion of that authority had first dealt with it. That was the principle of the proposal made by the Government.

The Amendment now is that the word "stand" shall be left out in order to insert "be."

said that the question was whether the word "stand" should be allowed to form part of the original Amendment. The effect, of allowing the word "stand" to remain would be that all matters before being considered by the local authority should be first considered by the Committee.

said he did not wish to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but it seemed to him that the hon. Gentleman's argument, whatever its value might be, would be equally applicable to the original Clause and the Clause as amended.

said he was afraid the right hon. Gentleman did not see the effect of the original or substituted words. The substituted words would make this difference, that it would cause the matter to come before the local authority, and the local authority could express its opinion upon it by way of instruction to the committee. He asked all those hon. Members in the House—and he saw a good many on both sides—who had great experience in local government, either in municipal corporations or County Councils, what they would think if on any other question of local Government, their County Councils or municipal corporations were debarred from considering a subject at their meetings until it had first been considered and reported on by a subordinate authority or a committee. He did not believe that it was worth the while of the right hon. Gentleman to insist on these words, because they all knew that the practice of the local authorities was to refer all matters to the particular committees which dealt with them. There was a provision in the Municipal Corporations Act that all questions to be considered by committees should first come before the Corporation. Surely they could trust such great local authorities as the Corporations of Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham, to say whether or not a committee should consider a particular matter first. But by this Clause the Government said "No, the corporation must not consider it until the committee has first done so."

said he hoped the Government would consider the appeal made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield, who was such a high authority on the subject of local government. He was sure that the object of the Government must be to conciliate those great local authorities. Why in the world should they not have the power of reference to these committees? It should be remembered what these committees Would be. They would be largely aliens to the primary authority, because they were to consist, to a great degree, of outsiders, and ashy give a greater prerogative to a part than to the while? Was that a wise thing to do? Did the Government think dot that would induce those local bodies to look with more favour on the administration of this Bill? What the word "stanch" excluded was the power of the local authority to direct the committee. Take the case of a complaint under the Conscience Clause. The local authority might think that that was a matter which should be speedily decided, but, as the Clause of the Government stood, the local authority could not send the matter to the committee with instruction to look immediately into the matter and report at once, and as the local authority only met once in three months the delay would be very serious. This question went to the root principle of the power of the local authorities in this country.

said he wished to point out the difference between the effect of the word "shall" and the word "be." The Attorney General would not deny the proposition that the word "stand" prevented the access of the ratepayers direct to the Council which they had elected. The representation of the ratepayers would automatically be referred to the committee and it would only come within the knowledge of the Connell which it was reported on by the committee. What he wished to protect was the right of the rate payers to have access to the men they had elected.

said he thought the object of the hon. Member would he better carried out by the word "stand." The hon. Member aimed at two things—in the first place, that the education authority should he seized of what was going on; and, in the second place, that there should be no undue delay. Under the word "stand," the Education Authority would be seized of what was on, and could of course, discuss what Was going on. If the word "be" were substituted for "stand," that would be introducing another link in the general administrative chain, which could only lead to delay. Take the case of a matter, regarding which authority had been delegated to the committee. Under the word "stand," it would go before the Council and before the committee; the Council might not meet for two in, three months, but meantime the committee would consider it. If the case were of a different character, and dealt in a matter not delegated, then it would go at mice before the committee, and before the County Council as soon as it met. The Council would await the report of the committee before taking action, and, if that report were too long delayed, it would take action oil its own account. What could he more simple, or more expeditious, or what could more amply secure both the administrative autonomy stud power of the education authority, and, at the same time, the advisory position and dignity of the Education Committee? He hoped the hon. Member would not press the matter to a division.

said that there was one point

The County Council will have that power.

said that, if the word "stand" were retained, no Member of the County Council would be allowed to move a resolution in reference to a matter delegated to the Committee.

said he did not agree with the hon. Member.

said that that was the practice in County Councils. The Chairman would declare any such resolution out of order; whereas, if the word "be" were inserted; it would reserve to members of the County Council, the same power that they had over all other matters of local government. Therefore, it was very important that the word "be" should be substituted.

said he would not have intervened were it not for the interruption of the First Lord of the Treasury during his hon. friend's remarks. His hon. friend had stated the practice correctly. If a resolution were brought forward on a subject which load been referred to the committee, then the general sense of the Council would refuse to entertain it on the ground that it was before the committee, and that it would be only waste of time to consider it.

said the Amendment which he now proposed to move was necessary, if not almost consequential. He moved to insert after the word "committee" the words "who shall consider the same forthwith and report thereon with despatch to the Council." It was unnecessary to make any long observations with regard to this Amendment, because the necessity for it had been duly pointed out in the speeches made upon the previous Amendments. The object was to prevent delay: and the principle that there should not be much delay having been laid down, there was no reason why the principle should not be put into the Bill by the insertion of these words. He hoped the Government would see their way to accept the Amendment he now begged to move.

in supporting the Amendment, said there was one very important question which he would be glad if the Government could enlighten the House upon. How often would the County Committees be prepared to sit? Those who were acquainted with the procedure of the School Boards would know that, as a rule, a School Board met fortnightly and that in the alternate weeks the various committees of the Board met to deal with current matters. If this matter was to be left vague and uncertain there was great force in the Amendment. If, on the other hand, they were to understand that the committee would be called together at not too great intervals of time, then they would know that these matters would be automatically considered and reported on within a reasonable time. He hoped the Government would throw some light upon this matter.

said he understood that if there was any delay the County Council could act on its own initiative; but he did not think that appeared on the face of this Amendment of the Secretary to the Board of Education. Would the hon. Gentleman make that clear by the insertion of words?

said the difficulty under which they had laboured with these committees in the last three Amendments had been the same, and that was that these committees would be given a quite independent position. If it was to be a committee of the County Council in the ordinary sense, and one that could be told when to report, a committee with regard to which the County Council could dismiss some of the members if they chose, these difficulties could not arise. The Government in this case would see that some uncertainty existed in the minds of the education authorities in the country, and he desired to know whether the local education authorities would be able to give general powers to these committees. He thought many of these difficulties would not arise in practice, because in most cases the matter would be settled by the delegation given in another portion of the Clause. But as this was a power of reference he thought it was desirable that the Attorney General should express the views of the Government clearly.

said the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire had asked how often it was contemplated the Education Committee were going to meet. That, of course, must depend upon the amount of business they had to do. He rather deprecated laying down a hard and fast line for all parts of the country, but he should say they would meet as often as the School Board did now. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Carnarvon as to the initiative of the County Council under given circumstances, and to the question of the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen, what was contemplated was this; if the report did not come up in proper time the local education authority itself should act, and he would suggest to the consideration of hon. Members whether some such words as these would not remove all doubt in the matter. The Clause would then read thus:—

"All matters relating to the exercise by the Council of their powers under this Act shall stand referred to the Education Committee, and the Council, before exercising any such powers, shall, unless in their opinion the Matter is urgent, receive and consider the report (if any) of the Education Committee with respect to the matter in question."

thought those words were a great improvement, and they went to show that the discussion on the last few Amendments had not been wasted.

pointed out that, except by implication, these words did not tell the committees that they were to report. His Amendment said they were to "report with despatch" to the authority. He regretted the Government would not accept the Amendment.

said that owing to the very recent time in which the Clause had been remodelled by the Government, it had been impossible for those representing County Councils to consider it in its new shape. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Board of Education had said the County Councils would be their own executive. He submitted that in large counties it would be practically impossible for them to be their own executive in educational matters, Owing to the size of the Councils, and the working of this Bill, it would be impossible to carry it out, unless there was a large amount of delegation. There were many details which no County Councils would require to have brought before them, and if these committees were to have to report all the details, the agenda would become most voluminous. The words of the Amendment as they stood would make many eases play into the hands of obstructionists on the Councils, and reports might be delayed in matters with which immediate action was necessary. The question of consent to the appointment of a teacher, for instance, was a matter which could not be delayed for months until the Council could deal with it; it required to he dealt with at once by the committee. If every matter of that kind, which in. ninety-nine cases out of a hundred would not raise any question of fierce controversy or political difference, had to be delayed until it could be brought before the whole,. Council, administration would be greatly embarrassed and serious complaints would arise. The Secretary to the Board of Education had used the expression "except in urgent cases," but there was no such exception made in the Clause. The words as they stood were far too wide, and he suggested it would be better that the Clause should read "to the Education Committee, and the Council may delegate," and so on, "and subject to such delegation the committee shall report to the Council." His only object was to have words inserted which would smooth the working of the Act in large counties, and he hoped the Government would accept his remarks-in the spirit in which they had been made.

said it was clear from his explanation of the Amendment that the hon. Member for East Somersetshire feared that the Councils would interfere unduly with the Education Committees. The evident intention of the Government was that these committees, like all other committees of the County Council, should be subject in all things to, and liable to be corrected, if necessary, by the Council. The hon. Member had spoken of "swollen agendas" and the difficulty of getting through the work. The reports might be very bulky, but they would not appear on the agenda. One of the reasons which had prompted the hon. Member's action was probably his experience on the County Council of Somerset, where his reports on technical education had had sometimes to be strongly opposed by the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury and himself (the hon. Baronet). As to the provision "playing into the hands of the obstructionists," it was occasionally necessary for councillors to obstruct when they had gentlemen as chairmen of the Technical Education Committees who endeavoured recklessly to spend the money of the ratepayers, and the object of the Amendment apparently was to lessen the control of the ratepayers' representatives committees. The practical result of the Amendment would be that the County Council would have to pay the bill, while the Education Committee called whatever tune they chose and spent the ratepayers' money without restriction. It was very necessary that these committees should report, and that these report should be confirmed by the Council before money was spent. He, therefore, should strongly oppose the Amendment.

said the hon. Member for East Somerset had to a certain extent answered his own objections. He had pointed out that if delay was lkely to take place in matters of urgency, extensive powers of delegation would have to be given, and that was exactly what the Clause provided for two lines lower down. The Government proposed to give the local authority extensive powers of delegation for the very purpose of meeting cases of urgency, preventing unnecessary delay, and there by obviating the inconvenience feared by his hon. Friend. Nevertheless the Government, while they did not wish there to be any doubt of difficulty as to the capacity of these two bodies to transact with the utmost possible celerity the business in which they both were interested, would be prepared to accept an Amendment in the following form if agreeable to the hon Member, viz., after "powers shall" to insert "unless in their opinion the matter is urgent, receive and consider the report," etc. The words "if any" would then become unnecessary.