To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if the loan expenses chargeable to present School Board areas will be included in the total expenses of the authority under Part III. of the Education Bill for calculating the Aid Grant payable to the local education authority. (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The answer is in the affirmative.

To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state whether any applications for the allowance of £1 for each year's service since 1898 to which a soldier is entitled on discharge have been refused. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) Article 1,123 of the Pay Warrant gives a gratuity of £1 a year on transfer to the reserve or discharge, under certain conditions, and there is naturally no record of a refusal to give the gratuity when the conditions have been fulfilled.

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if directions have now been given that foreign pencils are no longer to be supplied to Government offices, and that pencils similar to those now in the Library of the House of Commons are to be substituted. (Answered by Mr Hayes Fisher.) No such general directions can be given, irrespective of the price and quality of British and foreign pencils; but for some time past all ordinary pencils purchased by the Stationery Office (exclusive of telegraph pencils) have been of British origin. I am informed that coloured chalk pencils of the make and quality required for the public service cannot be obtained from British manufacturers. Similarly, it was necessary during the year 1901–1902 to purchase 725 gross of special drawing pencils of foreign make for the use of engineers, architects, surveyors, and draughtsmen. I desire to add that, for some time past, all black-lead pencils supplied to the House of Commons have been of British make.

To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether his attention has been called to the breakdown on the Great Western Railway near Carmarthen, on the evening of Tuesday, 16th September; and whether any Board of Trade inquiry has been held into the matter. (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The Board of Trade have been informed by the Great Western Railway Company that on the date mentioned a train was delayed near the Ferryside Station owing to the failure of a portion of the eccentric gear upon the engine, but continued its journey as soon as another engine could be procured. Such an occurrence does not form a subject for an inquiry by the Board.

To ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the fact that the Crown property in Scotland is stated to produce an income of £30,789 15s. 1d., and that arrears at the close of the year 1901–2 amounted to £4,822 11s. 4d., will he state the nature of the subjects in respect of which these arrears fell due; and whether any steps have been taken to recover them. (Answered by Mr. Hayes Fisher.) Of the entire sum outstanding, £4,433 is in respect of surplus teinds of Elgin parish claimed by the Crown in respect of crops 1856–1876 (first half), for which the heritors dispute their liability. The claim is in abeyance pending the adjustment of a final locality which will it is expected, make clear the rights of the parties. The balance consists of various items of small amount which are being dealt with. I may add that all arrears are fully investigated after the close of each financial year and any necessary steps then taken.

To ask the Secretary of State for War, whether the Report called for in reference to the charges made in the Cape Parliament on the 28th August has been received; and, if so, will it be published; are the cases being investigated; and, if so, by whom. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The letter calling for this Report was despatched some weeks ago. The Report will, therefore, in all probability, reach the War Office some time in December.

To ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been directed to the appointment of Mr. J. P. Spanton to the rank of Veterinary Captain; will he state what qualification he possesses; and if his appointment is in accordance with Article 431 of the Royal Warrant, and Paragraph 40 of the Yeomanry Regulations. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.)Temporary Veterinary Captain Spanton was granted the honorary rank of Veterinary Captain on relinquishing his appointment as Veterinary Officer to the 1st Battalion Imperial Yeomanry. The regulations quoted do not apply to the case, as he has neither been appointed to a commission in the Imperial Yeomanry at home nor to one in the Army Veterinary Department.

I wish to ask whether the Secretary to the Education Department is prepared to make any statement with regard to the effect of the great changes which have this morning only been introduced into the new Grant in aid Clause. Unless an explanation is made forthwith, there may be no opportunity of giving one this afternoon. The money granted is abviously increased in the first part of the Clause, but the lasts part contains words of limitation the effect of which, I fear, may be more than to undo in some places what has previously been done.

I think the right hon. Gentleman has mistaken the effect of the Clause. I do not think it will have the effect which he seems to fear. Whatever happens with regard to the Committee stage of the money Resolution under the existing Rules, I may point out that the Report stage must come on on Monday, when there will be ample time for discussion.

This is a great surprise.

The hon. Member is only entitled to ask a question.

May I ask if it is not the fact that the three-fourth limit of the Parlimentary Grant is now proposed to be left out?

Order, order! The hon. Member is now arguing on the merits of the Amendment.

moved the omission of sub-Section (1.) He said that the sub-Section, in effect, defined all night school work as higher education, which was not merely absolute nonsense, but dangorous nonsense. At least 75 per cent. of the night school work in this country was purely elementary. The Government might see fit to call it higher education, but it could not be made higher education by calling it so, and to call it so would have a most dangerous effect. The Committee of Council's Report for the present year, signed by the Duke of Devonshire and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, said: "As in previous years, the principal subjects of instruction in evening schools under the Code were the elementary subjects—reading, writing, and arithmetic." Then the Report went on to say that 100,696 scholars qualified for the grant in arithmetic; 60,000 in writing and composition, 56,000 in reading and writing combined, and 28,000 in reacting and recitation. The Report for the previous year also stated that the elementary subjects of reading, writing, and arithmetic were more taught than any other in the evening schools. In 1900, 107,000 scholars qualified for the fee grant in arithmetic, 63,000 in writing and composition, 58,000 in writing and reading combined, and 29,000 in reading and recitation. There were hundreds of columns in the Educational Blue-books which bore out his argument, and the inspectors all admitted that the night school work was mainly of a purely elementary character. Dr. Williams, for instance, two years ago reported that while the evening schools continued to do good work, it was impossible to be blind to the fact that much of the time allotted to instruction in science was spent in teaching the elements of reading and writing. Mr. Saumarez said that the evening schools in country districts, particularly in Gloucestershire, could scarcely be called science schools, as their work was practically confined to reviving the dry bones of elementary instruction. Mr. Freeland, reporting from one of the northern districts, said that the great bulk of the night school work must remain purely elementary; while Mr. Danby, writing from the south-east district, said the majority of evening scholars attended the classes in order to make up their deficiences in elementary subjects, and to regain what they had forgotten of their school learning. There were men absolutely illiterate who had moral courage enough to sit down among lads, and in one case a man of forty years had joined a school so that he might be able to read the cricket scores in the Brighton Argus next summer. It was clear from all these reports that the great bulk of night school work was, and must remain, of an elementary nature, and, therefore, he impressed on the Government the extreme danger of the definition in the Clause. As to the financial effect, that would not make any difference with regard to county boroughs, which could raise as much money as they liked for elementary education, but it would put a rather heavy burden on the money at their disposal for other kinds of education. With the aid of a small grant from the Exchequer they had to provide for technical instruction, the development of higher education, and the training of pupil teachers, out of the rates, and if to that were to be added the provision of elementary night schools it would mean overburdening the amount of money at their disposal. He was told the other night that all he cared for was elementary instruction. If that were so he would hail with satisfaction this proposal of the Government, because it would leave so much more money free for elementary education by transferring the burden of these schools to the secondary education fund. But it was doing a serious injury to higher education, and, therefore, he opposed it. It was vitally essential to keep the night school in close touch with the day school; they must not have the two divorced, otherwise the children leaving the day school would never find their way into the night school. It might be all right in the county boroughs and rural areas, where there would be practically one authority, but in the 140 municipal boroughs with over 10,000 population and the sixty-one urban districts with over 20,000 population, there would be no coordination of education, because the authority would be a divided one. This difficulty had arisen because of the enormous changes made in the Bill, and he would suggest to the Government that they should drop the definition Clause right out. It was not wanted now, and the Secretary to the Board of Education, recognising that a great deal of the work was elementary, could supply the local authorities with two codes—a night school code for elementary work and a night school code for higher work.

said this matter was not being discussed for the first time. The hon. Member for North Camberwell had no doubt advanced a formidable array of reasons why evening schools should continue to be regarded as public elementary schools.

Some of them.

said the Government thought it was very desirable that there should be a definition of a public elementary school, and that definition they had endeavoured to put into this Clause. The present condition of the evening schools was very clearly and fully described by the late Vice-President of the Council in the debate which took place on the Education Estimates last year, when he described the evening schools as the most chaotic part of the whole of our chaotic system. The Government hoped that in the future adults would not have to go to evening schools in order to obtain education which they ought to have got in the public elementary day schools. It could not be said that the system described by the hon. Member was a satisfactory system. It was a reflection on the working of our elementary schools that so large a proportion of the evening continuation classes should be made up of adults who wanted to learn to read a newspaper. The Government hoped that state of things would be remedied, and that a very much smaller proportion of the work done in the evening schools would be of an education elementary character. As the Clause stood, there was noting to prevent elementary education being given in the evening schools. It was desirable that schools so miscellaneous in the character of their teaching, and so miscellaneous in the age of the persons who received that teaching, should be separated from the public elementary day schools, which were intended to provide the best education they could devise for boys and girls who had to go forth to the work of life. It must be borne in mind that some of the most valuable work of these evening schools was carried on outside the range of elementary education, and was not entitled to be paid for out of the rates, but was paid for out of the rates before the Cockerton judgment. The Government wanted to give full power to the local authorities to adapt the evening schools in their areas to the needs of their districts. He thought that the municipal authorities who would have the power to raise a penny rate under Clause 3 would not be slow to exercise that power to meet the wants of the population. He hoped that the local education authority would find no great difficulty in securing that elementary education should work on into higher elementary and secondary education with the smoothness that was desired to be effected by this Bill. The grants made to these evening continuation schools were liberal enough. Of course not less than 25 per cent, of the expenditure had to be provided out of the local contributions, but with the assistance now contemplated he did not think they would be starved, that the elementary education given in them would not be adequate to the requirements of the population, or that the higher education would in any way be found to be deficient for the wants of the particular area. The object of this Clause was really to differentiate the various classes of schools. They could not divide the work of one evening school into elementary and secondary. They must regard the evening schools as a whole, and give the local authority full power to deal with them. He could not help thinking that the Clause as it stood would promote smoothness of working both for the local authority and the Department, and the efficiency of the education given in the schools.

said the time at their disposal for discussion was very limited indeed, and he would, therefore, be as brief as possible. But he desired to point out that under the guise of a definition Clause they were introducing a substantial and important change. Technically, he admitted they were carrying out the Cockerton judgment and perpetuating what the Cockerton judgment declared to be the law. 'But for many years before that judgment was passed these schools were treated as elementary, and, therefore, in reversing their position they were making a new departure under the guise of an interpretation Clause. He had listened with interest to the speech of the Secretary to the Board of Education in defence of the Clause, but they could not ignore the fact that the largest part of the education given in most of the evening schools of the country was elementary, and it would have been a far simpler plan to have either divided the elementary from the secondary education, or else to have invited the secondary authority to delegate the control of so much as was elementary to the elementary authority, which he sure they would be willing to do. The hon. Gentleman had expressed a hope that secondary education would have ample provision made for it, and that elementary education would be so improved that the need for giving it in night schools would not continue. But those who were acquainted with the conditions of rural life well knew that for some time to come, at all events, many children in our rural districts would, unless our educational system was screwed up to a much higher point, leave the day schools imperfectly furnished with a knowledge of elementary subjects. Any clergyman who took an interest in school work would tell them that unless evening schools were provided the children would relapse into ignorance after leaving the day schools. They must adapt their system to that state of things and endeavour to keep young people between fifteen and seventeen years of age in touch with the elementary teachers. He was sorry that the Government did not realise the true facts of the case. There were three reasons why he objected to the scheme of this definition Clause. The first reason was that this education was elementary, and would continue to be elementary. What was the use of calling a thing by another name? It was elementary education before the Cockerton judgment, and the Cockerton judgment had not altered the facts. Secondly, the elementary part of the education given in these evening schools ought to be under the authority which controlled elementary education. That was common-sense. But under this Clause they were creating the overlapping and conflict of authority which the Bill was intended to remove. Lastly, there was the question of expense. It was common ground that their greatest need was to develop secondary education. Under this Clause they would take a large and costly branch of education and throw it over to secondary education. By doing so they made it less likely that the higher branches of secondary education could be provided for out of the rates. Fear of an increase in the rates would be the dominant feeling in many counties, and, as elementary education must be provided for, it would be secondary education that would go to the wall. That in itself was conclusive against this change, and in the interests of secondary education as well as of the children whose education had been neglected and for whom evening schools were so much needed, he earnestly hoped that the Committee would not approve this definition Clause.

said that the evening schools used to be under two separate Departments of the Government and two separate local authorities. They were under the Science and Art Department and the Board of Education until the Cockerton judgment, which decided that no evening school could be a public elementary school if it taught persons above the age of childhood anything else than elementary instruction, gave the Board of Education an opportunity of putting an end to the chaos. During the last year or two these schools had ceased to be public elementary schools and had become schools for higher instruction. It was true that in the schools of higher instruction which took the place of the evening elementary schools, a great deal of elementary instruction was given; and it was a great disgrace to our elementary system that it should be necessary to teach again to young persons of seventeen the things which the public had already paid for them to learn. But this instruction was only given to prepare the pupils for technical education. Under a Minute issued by the Board of Education, power was reserved to School Boards to carry on evening schools for teaching elementary subjects to children; but in only twenty cases had the power been exercised. Now that the evening schools had been unified, it was proposed by this Amendment to establish again two classes—elementary evening schools and higher evening schools. Nothing could be more pernicious, because it would reintroduce the old confusion where there were two local education authorities. It would reintroduce the very system which he described as chaos in this House two or three years ago. The mischief was that the two authorities would overlap and establish rival schools, and in order to attract scholars they would teach not what the people needed to be taught, but what they wanted to learn; all sorts of inducements in the way of recreations would be offered to entice scholars to one school or the other. If the Amendment were carried it would not effect the object of its supporters, because without a definition of "evening schools" the law as laid down in the Cockerton judgment would prevail. It would undo all the good which in the last two years had resulted from the consolidation of the evening schools, and it would reintroduce chaos. He was astonished at the description given by the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen of the secondary education given in the country districts. It was not, except in some benighted regions of the country perhaps, the mere reopening of the village day schools in the evening.

I know a case within thirty miles of London.

said that there were many benighted districts within 30 miles of London. In the very sparsely populated county of Cambridgeshire every young person had within reach a technical school in which metal work, basket work, and the like were taught. That was the sort of evening school that was wanted. It was not desirable to cover the country with evening schools for the purpose of teaching persons to read the newspaper so that they might have better access to the sporting intelligence. They wanted to provide proper evening schools where the instruction already received in day schools was carried to a higher level, and where technical instruction could be given to the people who deserved and needed it.

said the right hon. Gentleman had no doubt pictured an ideal state of things, but the fact remained that there were hundreds of thousands of young people over the age of fourteen in need of elementary instruction, and if a hold were to be obtained over these young people it was most necessary to keep up their connection with the ordinary day schools. Were they now to put obstacles in their way of getting practical instruction, or should they help them? That was the point the Committee had to decide. As to the suggestion that these boys and girls ought not to need such instruction, it might be worth considering how far the Education Department Code was responsible for the defective way in which they were turned out. Our boys and girls unfortunately left the elementary schools at a much earlier age than was to be desired; they left at a period before they began to appreciate the advantage of knowledge, before even they appreciated the necessity of putting into practice the limited instruction they had received. Many at once entered on manual occupations in which they needed not to exercise their talents, except, perhaps, for the purpose of reading a newspaper, and it was not until they were seventeen or eighteen that they began to appreciate the necessity of reviving their limited educational acquirements. Was it well, then, to exclude them from the opportunity of doing so? This was one of the most important questions the Committee had ever discussed. He felt it was absolutely necessary that these young people should be kept in some sort of relationship with the day-school organisation. He had had some little experience of the training of young people in day schools, and he found that if there was between the ages of fourteen and sixteen a breaking off of these connections, it was extremely difficult to get them renewed. If, on the other hand, the connections were maintained unbroken, the boys and girls made friends with the teachers, good companionships were formed, and the elementary education gradually progressed into the secondary stage. If the Prime Minister had had practical acquaintance with some of these schools, he would have shown more sympathy with the desire to maintain them. No doubt at one time, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had said, a very chaotic condition did exist, but the local authorities could easily overcome that. In his own city they had succeeded to a very large extent by co-operation between the School Board and the Technical Education Committee. He did not see why there should be any danger of overlapping, now that they had one authority under the Bill. There were two classes of young people they ought to cater for—those who, by reason of their ability, and the keenness of their desire for education, desired to avail themselves of the technical and secondary schools, and the still larger number who in their school days had not appreciated their somewhat limited opportunities of education and still required, therefore, instruction in the three R's. He did feel that the Committee were undertaking a very serious responsibility in not so arranging that the hundreds of thousands of young people who were willing to improve themselves in elementary education should not be deprived of future facilities. The right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that the School Boards had not availed themselves of the facilities which former Acts had given them in regard to the establishment of evening schools, but the regulations issued by the Board of Education were entirely responsible for that. He sincerely hoped that the Prime Minister would either delete this sub-Section or accept his more moderate Amendment which was on the Paper.

said he was entirely in sympathy with the hon. Member as to the evening continuation schools; but his belief was that the sub-Section would not discourage these evening schools. The County Council of his own county had found it to be perfectly easy to run these evening schools under the regulations of the Education Department, and he could not see why the new education authority should not be able to do so under the proposed regulations. He would like to remind the Committee that the Royal Commission on Secondary Education had recommended that the secondary education authority should have jurisdiction over the evening continuation schools. He knew that in many of these schools elementary subjects were taught, and he should object to any system which would prevent the education authority from providing such elementary education. It bad been said that it would be impossible to adapt elementary to secondary education in the schools in the larger towns, but he thought that could be done by the powers of delegation given to the local education authority. He insisted that these evening continuation schools should be kept in touch with the higher education, and that the secondary education authority should have control over them.

said he sympathised with the Amendment of the hon. Member for Norfolk. He felt that a great deal of difficulty had been raised in reference to this matter on purely academic grounds. It was impossible to draw a straight line between primary and secondary education, and these evening continuation schools had done a vast amount of good in helping to improve the elementary education of the working classes. They had had adult schools in Birmingham even before 1870, and in these schools the education of some of their ablest and best citizen had been developed. This system of mixed education which had grown up would be checked and destroyed if the Bill were passed in its present form. It was very important to give an opportunity to dull children, who had awakened to the importance of self-improvement, to acquire further advance in elementary education.

said he would appeal to the Committee to come to a decision on the Amendment. The point was not a novel one, and the Committee had a great deal of work before it.

said he would respectfully take note of the appeal made by the Prime Minister, but he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that this was a question which had not been largely dealt with by the Committee on its merits. This was purely an education question per se. He would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could show the Committee, if Clause 18 passed in its present shape, what would happen to boys and girls who had attained the adult limit of age, eighteen, and who were anxious to improve themselves further. In all the technical schools at present it was found necessary to provide elementary instruction for a certain class of children coming up from the Board Schools. Without further elementary instruction they could not begin to understand even the terms used in elementary science teaching. Consequently these boys and girls would have no chance of obtaining that education afterwards. Instead of there being a link in the chain between secondary and elementary schools, there would be a void which could not be filled by any provision whatever contained in this Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman or the Secretary to the Board of Education could only say that under the provisions of this Bill the local education authority could provide in secondary schools for higher elementary education, then there would be some possibility of connecting the elementary and secondary schools as one co-ordinated whole. In the absence of this provision many children would not be fitted to enter the secondary schools. He should like to be informed whether the Bill sufficiently provided for the continuance of the education of those children who left elementary schools under the age of fifteen years. Possibly those children might get the degree of higher elementary education in the secondary schools. What provision was there in this Bill for such children to develop their faculties just at the time of life which above all others was most important for their own advancement? It was in this particular aim and this particular connection of one class of education with the other that future of this country very largely depended for its intelligence. In all the technical schools with which he was acquainted they had to provide elementary classes for the children coming out of Board Schools, in order that they might be prepared for the secondary education provided in these technical school. In this respect the Bill was an unmitigated retrogression against the interests of education as a whole, because there was nothing in tins measure to provide in the future for the bridging over of this difficulty in such a manner as would give to this country those educational advantages which other countries possessed.

thought that they ought to carry out the desire of the Prime Minister and not carry this discussion to any further length. He agreed with the Government in regard to the method of conducting the evening continuation schools. There was a certain amount of contradiction about this proposal, because in Clause 2 it was laid down that—

"The local education authority may supply, or aid supply of, education other than elementary."

, said if he might venture to make a guess at the answer of the Government to the question put by the hon. Gentleman opposite it would be that there was no answer at all. The Government were trying to do what was impossible; they were drawing a hard and fast line between higher and elementary education, and they were doing this to prevent overlapping. There was a danger that they might have two sets of schools under different authorities competing one with the other in the same area and trying to draw the scholars from one school to another. How was that to be obviated? Certainly not by drawing a hard and fast line. The way out of the difficulty was to consider what was laid down in the discussion upon the first Clause of the Bill If the Government would reconsider the arguments then used about higher education, and have the courage to carry out more the principle of one authority, they would do away with this difficulty. Then they would get education co-ordinated. There was a want of co-ordination not only between the different kinds of education but also between the different kinds of education given in the same schools. The schools would be under one authority in the day time and another in the evening. This difficulty all arose on account of the mistake made in the beginning of the Bill and if they would only deal with that, this difficulty, which was solely the creation of the Government, could be easily removed by carrying this principle to its logical conclusion.

, referring to the evening continuation schools, asked what did they find was in reality done? They found that the boys left school at a much too early age and went to work. They became either discontented or anxious to know more than they did before. They came to think that there was a possibility of them adding more to the wage-earning power of the family, and they returned to the evening continuation schools. Take as an illustration the eastern countries. They could not tell him that the bulk of the children going to the evening schools were fit to begin the elementary part of what was called secondary education. Many of those boys and girls if they did not attend the evening schools were unable, after a time, even to read and write, and if they were anxious to continue their education it was the elementary portion they required. Their anxiety was to be able to read and write correctly and fit themselves for secondary education. If elementary education was to be allowed to form part of the evening school work, the proper authority would be the same body as conducted the elementary education. He confessed that he felt extremely anxious about this proposal.

thought the late Vice-President of the Council had taken too generous a view of the class of work done under the Code in evening continuation schools. When he said they had become "schools of higher instruction," the fact was a large proportion were teaching the three R's. They ought to have this Bill so worded that the education which was elementary should still be under the Elementary Department of the Government whether in day or night schools. The Secretary of the Board of Education had told them that this work in the boroughs would be continued under the penny rate, which would be still available for secondary instruction. But it was already absorbed, and he thought it was unfair that in those districts which were willing to tax themselves with an additional penny rate that the money intended for the higher educational and technological work of the locality should be applied to lower standards. These continuation schools had been a great success. The pupils had inceased from 96,542 in 1892 to 546,405 in 1901, therefore let them be kept in touch with day schools and not be transferred to county authorities. Continuity of instruction was the great thing which they desired. They found children leaving the day school with imperfect education, and then waking up to the necessity of beginning again. He thought the greatest possible inducement should be given to these young people, and if the true interests of the country were studied the Government would see to it that it was made as easy as possible for these young people to get again on the educational ladder. The number attending these evening classes over twenty-one years of age in 1892 was 4,993, but in the year 1901 that total had increased to 90,516. That showed conclusively that there was a great need for these schools. They must not be restricted in matter of age limit, but be free as now to those of any age who desired to attend them over fifteen. He joined in pressing the Government to alter the Clause accordingly.

said that surely the Government must see that there was a considerable difference of opinion upon this proposal on both sides of the House. In the rural areas a difficulty undoubtedly existed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had sketched a fancy picture of what should be, but the hon. and gallant Member who had just spoken had stated the facts which they must recognise today. There was the gravest danger that in small villages evening continuation schools would be crushed out of existence. There was no class more deserving of assistance under the Bill than children who, having been obliged to leave school at a very early age, desired to improve themselves by going to these evening continuation schools. He believed it was beyond the wit of man to define what was primary and what was secondary education. And surely it was ridiculous to say that work done in a school between 9 and 12 o'clock in the day was primary education, and that the same class of work done between 7 and 9 o'clock in the evening was higher education. He appealed to the Government to find some way out of the difficulty. The Clause was not satisfactory, and the Amendment was not satisfactory. Surely between this and the Report stage the right hon. Gentleman would be able to find some form of words which would enable the elementary evening continuation schools to be continued, and thus meet the wishes of both sides of the Committee without destroying in any way the fabric of his Bill. Something must be done for these children. They were often those who had been neglected when very little and who now had a laudable ambition to improve their position. Unless some satisfactory assurance was given he should support the Amendment.

said the Government were perfectly clear that they must differentiate between primary and secondary education, for the reason, if for no other, that there were a large number of boroughs which had the right to give primary education but not secondary education. He had not forgotten that hon. Gentlemen opposite had contended that these boroughs should have been placed for primary as well as secondary education under the heels of the County Councils. It was very easy for critics, who had not to carry the Bill, to say how very nice the Bill would be if it ran on lines more theoretically perfect. But that had never been a possible policy. It was not a possible policy now. They had to deal with facts as they found them. He was convinced that any attempt to turn a primary school into a secondary school would lead to that overlapping which they all wished to avoid. The difficulty was to reconcile two perfectly sound views; the view of the Government—that true secondary education ought to be clearly defined so as to prevent overlapping, and the other view that if there was a limit of age there was included in that something that was not secondary education and never could be. In secondary education was included the teaching of very elementary subjects, but that was only intended as a step to the higher education, and if a boy when sent to our great public schools was put in the lowest form he would get education which might be called elementary, but which there was no doubt was secondary, from the very beginning. Sub-Section (1) must stand in some form. To meet the difficulty he suggested the addition of the following words at the end of the sub-Section—

"Other than a school in which no other education is given except such as is given in a primary elementary day school."

thought the proposed words would be an improvement on the sub-Section.

also said that the Amendment was a very great improvement on the sub-Section, and that it would remove the major part of the difficulty.

thought the real difficulty of the Committee was in trying to define too closely and too rigidly the duties of the local education authority. What was required was to place more trust and more confidence in the local authorities than was now being done. He did not think that what was being taught in night schools could in any way be described as secondary education, because all it did was to take a boy at the age, say, of thirteen or fourteen, and lead him on and fit him to receive the secondary education that would be provided for him. The tendency of the human mind was to forget, and if this limit was left and the boy suddenly taken away from school he would forget all that he had learnt. In the night schools the boy would not only increase his knowledge but remember that which he already possessed. He desired to support the proposal that the continuation schools should be placed unreservedly under the local education authority.

said nobody wanted to stop these night schools, or to take them out of the purview of the local authority, and there would be no difficulty at all if it were not for the existence of certain urban districts and boroughs in which there were two local authorities. He entirely agreed with the First Lord of the Treasury that this, though a theoretical blemish on the Bill, was a thing which was essential to the passing of the measure through the House. The question was, to which of the two authorities—the county authority or the borough or urban district authority—the control of these schools should be given. It was essential that there should not be two kinds of authorities, otherwise the whole difficulty which had embarrassed the Board of Education for years, and which the Cockerton judgment put an end to, would be reintroduced. There were at present different schools giving technical, secondary, and elementary education. Why disturb them, or interfere with a proceeding now going on with great satisfaction, and to the great advantage of education, by insisting on reintroducing the evil of two rival authorities?

said he was sensible of the difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman felt in adopting words on the spur of the moment, but he suggested the following form of words—"The expression 'elementary school' shall not include any evening school which the regulations of the Board of Education shall declare to be secondary or technical."

said before the Prime Minister replied he would urge him to promise that provision should be definitely made for the giving of instruction in the evening continuation schools to pupils of any age over 15, and also that the term "school" should include "class," because in many wide rural districts it was impossible to establish a proper school, and so the authorities might have at times to be content with a single class in each village.

said he could not say that he was quite satisfied with the form of words suggested, and yet he was not quite happy about leaving the matter entirely till the Report stage. An hon. Gentleman opposite had courteously handed him words which he thought were simpler than his hon. friend's words—"where any part of the education given is other than elementary." It was, however, quite possible that that might not prove satisfactory on further consideration, and he was ready to leave the matter over.

urged that the words first suggested were preferable. He was afraid, however, that under the words as they stood, it would not be possible to give even elementary education to anybody over fifteen years of age, in a night school. He would like an assurance that such a thing would be provided against.

said that that followed as a matter of course.

But if there is any legal doubt about it, the Government will attend to it?

Yes.

said that if he gave a promise to deal with the matter on Report it must be subject to the exigencies of the Parliamentary situation, but he would do his best to meet the situation. The Government held that secondary education in the true sense of the word—that was to say, education which, though it went to the higher subjects, might begin lower, and which in its essentials was to be distinguished from primary education, and was not a mere continuation of primary education—ought to rest with the education authority. On the other hand, they quite admitted that in those districts where primary education proper was left to a subordinate authority, that authority ought not to be prevented from giving what was truly primary education to persons who were above the age of fifteen. That was really the point. That which was strictly elementary before the age of fifteen did not cease to be elementary after that age, and the Government would endeavour to find some method by which that point should be covered.

suggested that the Prime Minister would get out of his difficulty by accepting the first form of words. All danger from "Parliamentary exigencies" would then be avoided.

said he also should prefer the bird in the hand, having regard to Parliamentary uncertainties.

wished the Prime Minister had more confidence in his own words. The first form was much wider than the second.

said they had always declared they could not define what "education other than elementary" was, but they could draw the line as to what was the education given in public elementary schools. He therefore hoped the right hon. Gentleman's first words would be adopted.

urged that the widest possible scope should be given to the powers necessary for carrying on the continuation schools.

said the words he had suggested were "where the education given was other than elementary." The difficulty was that by the words of the Prime Minister the situation was that no school could be an elementary school where there would be a single class teaching a secondary subject, because then that school would not be an elementary school.

said he hoped the Committee would allow them to finish this sub-Section. He proposed to add at the end of the sub-Section the words—

"Where any part of the education given is other than elementary."

I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

said he wished to move the Amendment standing in his name on the Paper, to insect after "the Board of Education" the words "to pupil teachers and." The education to be given to pupil teachers was so purely elementary that no argument was necessary to recommend his Amendment to the Government.

said he was afraid that the Government could not accept this Amendment.

said he hoped that the Government would not accept the Amendment since it would stop the education of pupil teachers in secondary schools, which he hoped would go on. This was one of the projects by which the School Board invaded the domain of secondary education. They could not hold to the old system, and it was better now to encourage real secondary education in schools where the pupil teachers would be trained to the teaching profession.

said that if he thought for a moment that the result of his right hon. friend's Amendment would be to destroy the instruction of pupil teachers in the secondary schools he would be disposed to agree with the right hon. the Member for Cambridge University. If it was proposed to give a far higher sum out of Government resources in aid of higher education, he did not see why an arrangement might not be made to cover the expense of such teaching.

said that it seemed to him that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman was of the most reactionary kind ever made in the course of these debates. He had always thought that one of the great things which they ought to aim at was to raise the character and the tone of pupil teachers from the beginning of their career to their final employment under the Education Code. He had taken the deepest interest for many years in pupil teachers' centres, which occupied a position between the elementary and the secondary schools. If they were to give a higher tone to elementary education they must endeavour to do it by the influences coming from a higher secondary education. He thought that great injury had been done to education by some of the concessions which the Government had made already, and he hoped the Government would not go further in the direction of degrading Instead of elevating education.

said he attached importance to the Amendment because he thought it was valuable; but he recognised the fact that it was in the power of the Government to defeat it, and he asked leave to withdraw it.

said he wished to move as an Amendment, to strike out the words in sub-Section (2), limiting instruction in public elementary schools to "scholars of not more than fifteen years of age." Assuming that these words were put in by way of compliance with the Cockerton judgment, he maintained that there was nothing in that judgment to require promising children to be resolutely turned out of the school at the age named. In rural districts, where it would not be always possible to switch off a scholar to a secondary school in some neighbouring town, the restriction in the Clause would have most deplorable results. In Scotland, the Code provided that children might stay in the public elementary schools until they were eighteen years of age; and there were, roughly speaking, 7000 pupils in elementary schools in that country over fifteen years of age. Why should they in England, be debarred from having at east as many pupils staying in the elementary schools, whose parents were content to allow them to remain there, in order to get a little beyond the rudiments of ordinary instruction? He sincerely hoped he would not appeal in vain for this modification of the Clause. Although he sympathised with the desire that gave birth to it, he opposed the fifteen years of age limit because he was convinced that it would create gaps in secondary education. If working men were prepared to allow their children to remain at school and forego their earning capacity, the least the country could do was to permit the children to remain at school

said this age limit was a matter of policy from which the Government could not depart. The Scotch system was different from the English in that, in Scotland, elementary and secondary education were dealt with in the same schools. One of the main objects of this Bill was to secure that, when their public elementary course was concluded, children who had the time and opportunity should have every chance of getting a higher education in secondary schools. The opinion of the Government was that a school must be one thing or the other. Elementary day schools were intended for boys and girls who, about the age of fifteen, had to go and make their way in life. After that age evening and secondary schools were provided for them, if they had the opportunity to use them. If they had not the opportunity, all that could be done was to provide as good a system of public elementary education as was possible. In the elementary schools it was desirable to concentrate the attention of the teacher on the children generally, and not to lead an ambitious teacher to apply him self to push a clever child. If the age limit were extended there would be an infinitely greater variety of children in the schools, there would be a risk that the duller children would be left behind, and public elementary teaching not be as good as that which the Government hoped would be obtained. Another objection to the abolition of the age limit was that it would bring elementary schools into competition with secondary schools, and that was the very thing the Bill was designed to prevent. The Government did not think it necessary to take the Scotch system into consideration, believing, as they did, that the best system for England was the one they had adopted. When the hon. Member said that the children would be ruled out at the age of fifteen, he might say that the Government would be quite prepared to accept the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen, which would allow a child to complete his school year, though he might attain the age of fifteen before the end of it.

said the promise of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board to accept the Amendment of the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen to allow a child trained in an elementary school to complete his school year after he reached fifteen, was satisfactory as far as it went; but the Committee were very disappointed to hear the hon. Gentleman defend Clause 18 as it stood. As he understood the hon. Gentleman he was still confined in his ideas to the old distinctive division between the elementary and secondary education, This Bill proposed to allow the local authorities to provide two kinds of instruction; but he (Mr. Yoxall) thought it might best be left to the local authorities to draw the line where it was thought it ought to be drawn. It might suit a locality to say that both kinds of education should go on in the one school, which might be more economical than otherwise. The object of the Government in this case was clear—it was to enable them to identify a child in the secondary school to whom they were giving the grant. But his argument was, that the hon. Gentleman might give the grant to the same child in a higher elementary school. He contended that if a child could get another near of continuous education in an elementary school it would be far cheaper than if he went to a secondary school for it. He regretted that the hon. Gentleman had thought well to stand up for this particular Clause, which was unnecessary, which was not inherent to the Bill and which was a legacy left by a mischief-making Vice-president to the Board of Education.

said the difference between the hon. Member opposite and the Board of Education was that the hon. Member would give clever children a sham secondary education, and the Board of Education desired to give them a real one. The hon. Member recommended the keeping of the children in elementary schools because it was cheaper, and it cost less to give a boy the extra instruction in an elementary school. That was the kind of recommendation which the hon. Gentleman made of this proposal. The idea of the Board of Education was that it was better to take the clever children out of the elementary schools and to give them the higher education their talents deserved. There was, no doubt, a strong temptation to the teacher to keep a clever boy, and it was much better that he should go where he would meet other boys as clever as himself, rather than that he should remain a conceited, overtaught, overweening boy in an elementary school where, to use a vulgar expression, he was cock of the walk. In the rural districts he would get to the secondary school by the proper method of county scholarships. There were already in almost every county in England county scholarships by which promising boys and girls could pass from elementary schools to higher schools. Under the present Bill this so-called educations ladder would, no doubt, be greatly improved. That was the real way to deal with clever boys. It was no use keeping clever and promising pupils in elementary schools, where they did not get the higher instruction which their talents merited. If we wanted a national system of education it was essential that we should make our system a "capacity-catching machine," by which capable children would be taken to a higher school where they could really get the sort of instruction they needed.

thought that the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had given a more encouraging support to the Bill than he did formerly. He regretted the statement of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Education, that the Scotch system was not applicable to England. It was necessary that the first rung of the educational ladder should be in the elementary school, and now, so far as he could see, the Government intended not only to knock away that first rung, but the last rung also. If county scholarships were in general prevalence all over England, one would not care so much, but it was not upon that ground that the hon. Gentleman had defended the proposal of the sub-Section. He dissented entirely from the view that the Scotch system was not desirable or practicable in England.

thought the decision at which the Government had arrived was due to a lack of knowledge of the country districts and the difficulty in the way of the scholars attending secondary schools. The authority would not be able to provide many secondary schools, and if the boys and girls were taken away from the elementary schools at fifteen, there was no place in the counties where they could continue their studies. In the boroughs, where secondary schools could be formed, it would be no doubt an easy matter, but in the counties it would be a difficult thing for the children to get secondary education; they would be cut off from school life altogether. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University had rather exaggerated the power to obtain scholarships; besides which he (Mr. Wilson) did not agree with a policy which would only take account of the superior pupils. There were many other pupils who might be of great use to their country, but whose intellects were less ready in learning. In many districts there were boys and girls who at sixteen or seventeen years of age began to realise that they had not previously made the best use of their time, and wished to make good their deficiencies. He submitted that this provision would interfere with the proper equipment of our boys and girls for competition with other nations. He hoped the Government would reconsider their decision.

sympathised with the feeling expressed by the hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the Committee, but reminded hon. Gentlemen that throughout the whole of Western Europe thirteen was the age limit for primary education. In one or two Swiss cantons it was fourteen. With regard to Scotland, he had observed that for that country there was no such thing as an Elementary Education Act, and it was owing to the fact that it was an "Education Act," and not an Elementary Education Act, that there was such a great difference between the education of Scotland and England. Another objection to raising the age limit was that it would be necessary to have a higher class in the elementary school, which had a great attraction to the elementary school teacher, and which, in his opinion, would be more or less disastrous to elementary education. Children at the present time were not sufficiently well grounded; the teachers and the parents of the children were, he thought, too ambitious, and the children were pressed on too much, and he thought it would be better to give the children a more thorough foundation of knowledge, and not to increase the age limit.

asked if the Government would be prepared to allow the local authority a discretion to retain a pupil beyond the age of fifteen if there should be no provision for higher education within the district.

said he believed that one of the methods recommended by the Secondary Education Commission was in this direction.

said he could only undertake to consider this point, which had but a distant relation to the Amendment.

relying on this consideration, begged leave to be allowed to withdraw his Amendment.

thought that the Amendment he now moved, to permit the local education authority to allow a scholar to remain in a school to the end of the school year in which he or she attained the age of fifteen years, was obviously a convenient one, and as he understood the Government proposed to accept it, he would move it without any further observation.

on a point of order, called attention to the fact that this point had already been decided by the Committee, and therefore, he submitted, this Amendment was out of order. The Committee on the previous day had passed the words on the top of page 6, in Clause 13, that the fees of any school should be paid to the authority.

thanked the hon. Member for pointing out this matter, but regretted that he had not had the hon. Gentleman's assistance before. Having had to give way once, he saw no alternative but to give way again.

on the point of order, submitted that sub-Section (3) was not in order. It was an Amendment to a definition Clause and had nothing to do with it. There was nothing in the Clause except definitions of matters incidental to the Clauses. This had nothing whatever to do with definitions, and it was absolutely out of order in its present place.

read sub-Section (2)and sub-Section (5,)and pointed out that neither of them were really definitions.

pointed out that both the provisions alluded to by the hon. and learned Attorney General were limited. He submitted that this Amendment was out of order.

said he was disposed to agree. He thought that this was really a definition Clause; both the second and fifth sub-Sections were definitions, and, that being so, the Amendment would be out of order.

in the absence of the hon. Member for East Nottingham, begged leave to move the Amendment standing on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member.

objected that this would tend to throw doubt on the general proposition that "persons" included either sex. He thought it was quite unnecessary to put such a definition in the Bill.

suggested that it was not a definition at all, but an enactment.

said that in substance it was a definition.

said he desired to move the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Member for East Somerset.

Is that a definition?

submitted that the words, "The powers of a local education authority under this Act shall include" was a very clear definition indeed.

said he had not had time to look into it, but he would like to know whether the term "educational institution" included theological institutions, because they also were educational institutions.

asked whether the term "educational institution" would include hostels where no lectures were given, but where students lived, and which were affiliated to some other institution to which the students went by day for the purpose of lectures, because in Clause 4 there was a certain ambiguity. "Hostels" were included in some cases and left out in others.

asked whether the words "educational college" had been brought into any other Clause except Clause 4.

said a hostel which was simply a boarding house would not be included. If it was affiliated to another institution, no question would arise, because then it would be part of a whole, and would be an educational institution; but it would not, by itself, be an educational institution.

Then I move to insert after "educational institution" the words "not being a theological college."

said these words were not wanted. Practically speaking, this was a definition for the purposes of Clause 4 of the word "college," which did not appear elsewhere. A theological college was not the sort of institution that Clause 4 dealt with; it did not include a theological college.

said that, as a matter of fact, the word occurred again in Clause 13, but that did not affect this question much.

said he was perfectly well aware that such a thing was not contemplated, but he wanted to know whether it would be legal for a local authority to subsidise theological seminaries. He did not think they ought to be subsidised, though, if they were, Wales, in all probability, would derive the greatest advantage. But it ought to be made clear that such a thing should not be done.

said it was clear that the local authority would be able to assist a theological college. He did not see why the local authority should be forbidden to assist one sort of college more than any other sort of college.

said he was glad they had got at it at last. At first he was told that Clause 4 would cover the case; now it was clear that it did not. This was one of the little surprises of the Bill. Let it be clearly understood that it was perfectly possible under this Bill to endow any theological seminary of any denomination or sect. The book of revelation was not yet closed, in spite of the guillotine. He should press the Amendment as a protest against it.

moved to leave out sub-Section 6 in order to insert the words "For the purposes of this Act the census of 1901, until superseded by any future census, shall be the test of population." He pointed out that many districts at present just under the population limit would soon be over that limit, and it would be unfair that they should be permanently denied the powers given under this Bill. The Amendment really required no explanation, and he hoped the concession would be made.

objected that if the status of a borough or urban district was to vary from time to time according to its population they would never know how they stood.

pointed out that some districts might increase largely in population, while other districts would decrease. The scheme of the Government, therefore, did not confer the advantages of the Bill on the increasing populations, while perpetuating the rights possessed by populations which were diminishing. Moreover, his recollection was that the Prime Minister had previously stated that districts would vary according to the variation of the population. He thought the matter ought to be determined by the population of the locality for the time being.