To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can arrange, by way of compassionate allowance or otherwise, to give some compensation to the fishermen of Sidmouth for the loss sustained by reason of damage occasioned by the Royal Naval Torpedo Flotilla to their nets in Sidmouth Bay on the night of 9th July. (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) As it appears that the damage done was not the result of any negligence on the part of the officers of the flotilla, whilst the fishing boats, on the other hand, were not complying with the Board of Trade regulations as regards lights prescribed for drift net-fishing, the Admiralty are advised that they are not liable for any compensation in this case.

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether orders have yet been placed for the contract-built battleship and cruiser and for the armour required for the dockyard-built battleship and cruiser authorised under the naval programme of the current financial year. (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The order for the contract-built battleship has been placed; that for the contract-built cruiser has not yet been placed, but tenders are at present under consideration. No orders for armour for the battleship and cruiser to be built in the dockyards have yet been placed, but tenders for the armour for the battleship are at present under consideration.

To ask the Postmaster General if he will state the number and weekly wages of the postmen at Liver-pool who, during the past twelve months, have attended the telegraph school at that office, and how many have been declared efficient and have been retained in the telegraph department at Liverpool, (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) Twenty postmen, at wages ranging from 19s. 6d. to 28s. a week, have attended the telegraph school at Liverpool. Twelve are now being employed in the telegraph branch, of whom ten have attained the first standard of efficiency, and one has passed the second standard.

To ask the Postmaster General, seeing that a telegraphist at Liverpool, who was number twenty-five on the seniority list, has recently been advanced to the clerks class, whether he will state what opportunity of appeal was afforded the seniors before they were passed over. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) In making promotions the officer best qualified for the vacant post is selected. I fear it would not be practicable to give the officers who are not selected an opportunity of representing their claims before a decision is arrived at.

To ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that in connection with recent complaints of late delivery of the English mails in Belfast, instructions have been issued that deliveries must commence at a certain time, and that the Belfast postmaster has stated that no excuse will be taken in lieu of a prompt despatch; and whether, seeing that sufficient time is not given for sorting the mails, the Postmaster General will inquire into the circumstances of the case with a view to making a satisfactory arrangement. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) In consequence of complaints of delay received from the public, the postmaster of Belfast has given special attention to the question, and has properly enjoined upon the staff the importance of securing punctuality in the deliveries of letters. His action has my entire approval. Sufficient time is allowed for sorting the mails under normal conditions.

To ask the Postmaster General, in view of the fact that the services of a number of substitutes in Belfast Telegraph Department have recently been dispensed with owing to slackness of work, while at the same time assistance required by the engineering branch has been refused owing to alleged pressure of work, whether he will state the qualifications of the clerks drawn from two small provincial offices; and, seeing that they are receiving an allowance of 3s, per diem, will he explain why local assistance was not obtained. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The two officers in question were reported to possess the qualifications necessary for temporary duties in the superintending engineer's office. As regards the latter part of the Question, I must refer the hon. Member to my reply to him of the 27th November last on the same subject, to which I have nothing to add.

To ask the Postmaster General whether the obliterating stamps used upon postal matter charged at the halfpenny rate can be made to show, as in the case of other stamps, the place as well as the date of posting. (Answered by Mr. Austen chamberlain.) I am considering the right hon. Gentleman's Suggestion.

To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether it is the intention of the Board of Education to frame a model scheme or schemes under Clause 18, sub-Section (3); and, if so, when will they be issued. (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The Board of Education will be ready to enter into communication with local education authorities on the subject of schemes, and to assist them, when invited to do so, with advice and suggestion. But they have no present intention of framing a model scheme or schemes.

To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether there is any provision in the Education Bill to meet difficulties which the local authorities will experience in obtaining the money required to carry on the public elementary schools in the interval which will elapse in the first year before the Government grants will be received. (Answered by Sir William Anson.) It is not anticipated that there will be any difficulties of the kind suggested in the Question, nor would any provision in the Education Bill be the proper way of meeting such difficulties were they likely to arise. It is not the case, as the wording of the Question would seem to suggest, that the Parliamentary Grants in respect of the public elementary schools in the area of an authority are not paid until the expiration of twelve months after the appointed day. Some of the grants are paid by quarterly instalments; and the annual grants in respect of the various schools in an area will be payable to the authority at varying dates throughout the year. Arrangements will also be made for an early disbursement of some portion of the new aid grant to authorities.

To ask the President of the Board of Trade can he state, in view of the differential treatment prescribed by the Brussels Sugar Convention in respect of sugars and sugared and other analogous products, when coming from countries which grant bounties either on production or export, what measures it is proposed to take in order to ascertain from what country such sugars or products may have originally come; and is it proposed to require certificates of origin in respect of all such sugars or products as may be imported into this country.(Answered by Mr. Gerald BaIfour.) In the event of the Convention coming into operation, suitable measures will have to be taken by the Customs to distinguish sugar coming from foreign countries which grant bounties. I am not now prepared to make a detailed statement as to these measures, which will he provided for in the Bill to be introduced next session.

To ask President of the Board of Trade can he give the names of all States, not being signatories of the Brussels Sugar Convention, between which and Great Britain treaties exist containing the most favoured nation Clause.(Answered by Lord Cranborne.) Argentine Republic, Bolivia, Bulgaria, Colombia, Denmark, Greece, Honduras, Japan, Mexico, Liberia, Paraguay, Persia, Roumania, Russia, Salvador. Servia, Switzerland, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Zanzibar have treaties binding Great Britain to give them the treatment of the most-favoured nation.

To ask the President of the Board of Trade, have the agreements as regards shipping made with the Cunard Company and with Mr. Pierpont Morgan, or the Atlantic Shipping Trust, been yet completed; when will he lay copies upon the Table of this House; if they are not completed, can he state the cause of the delay; and can he state when the evening promised for the discussion of these agreements during the present sittings will be given.(Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The agreements have not yet been completed; they are complicated documents, the details of which have taken longer to settle than expected, and are still under consideration of the lawyers. I do not anticipate that the agreements can be laid upon the Table this session. The promise was to give an evening if desired after the agreements had been laid.

To ask Mr. Attorney General if his attention has been called to the remarks of the Recorder of London in the recent bankruptcy prosecution at the Central Criminal Court; will he say by whose direction was the prosecution instituted; and will he give instructions that in future prosecutions he will refuse to allow more than a reasonable number of counts in the indictment; and that unless the interests of public justice demand a warrant, the proceedings shall be initiated by information and summons only.(Answered by Sir Robert Finlay.) My attention has been called to the matters referred to in this Question. The prosecution was instituted by the directions of the director of public prosecutions. The number of counts to be inserted in any indictment must depend on the circumstances of each case. The case in question was of a very complicated and intricate nature, and the indictment was no longer than was necessary in the opinion of the very able and experienced counsel by whom it was prepared. It is, of course, preferable that proceedings should be commenced by summons, but it is impossible to lay down any fixed rule as to the circumstances which may render a warrent expedient.

To ask the Under Secretary of state for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the cost of constructing and removing the temporary rope inclines used on the Uganda Railway.(Answered by Lord Cranborne) The total expenditure on the rope inclines to which reference is made has been £31,362. This includes the greater part of the cost of removal, a comparatively small item in any case. Against this, on the other hand, for whatever they are worth, must be set the materials which have become available for use elsewhere.

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if officers and clerks in the service of His Majesty's Government are under rules not to trade on their own account; and, in view of the fact that a number of them are dealing in excisable plate, as agents of tally house firms, without holding a plate licence, he will say what steps he proposes to take in the matter.(Answered by Mr. Ritchie.) A civil servant is not allowed to engage in any business which is incompatible with his giving his whole official time to the public, or which may conflict with the proper performance of the duties of his office. Subject to this condition, he is under no restriction in the employment of his time out of office hours. As regards the latter part of the Question, if the hon. Member will furnish the Board of Inland Revenue with the names and addresses ot any persons whom he believes to be selling plate without a licence, inquiry will be made with a view to prosecution if sufficient evidence is forthcoming.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the amount of money expended on the Spiddal Pier, County Galway, the number of persons employed in that work, and the weekly wage of each employee.(Answered by Mr. Wyndham) The expenditure amounts to £3,057. The number of persons employed varied as the works progressed; the maximum number was 100. The weekly wages of the employees were as follows:- Foreman mason, 36s.: time and storekeeper, 30s.; carpenter, 30s.; carters. 30s.; quarrymen,15s.; labourers, 12s.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the terms and conditions upon which the holdings on the Rockford Estate, Connemara, have been let to the tenants by the Congested Districts Board.(Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Seven of the new holdings have been sold to the tenants at seventeen years purchase of the rents, the prices varying from £157 to £186. The one remaining holding is about to be sold to the Connemara Basket Company.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will consider the advisability of reducing the average attendance required for assistant teachers in Irish National Schools from sixty to fifty, owing to the increase of work in connection with new programme and the decrease of population, particularly in rural districts.(Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) It is not proposed to alter the scale of averages, according to which assistant teachers are appointed under existing rules.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in view of the fact that the Board organisers have held, or are holding, courses of training in convents for the exclusive use of the inmates, and that a number of national school teachers are still deprived of facilities for training in the new system owing to the attendance of organisers in convents, whether he will arrange for the organisers to hold courses in larger non-convent national schools for the use of their staff.(Answered by MR. Wyndham.) The courses conducted in convent national schools are not limited to the inmates of convents. They are open to, and are attended by, the teachers of other national schools. Similar courses are also held in schools and buildings not in any way connected with convents. The Commissioners have made, and will continue to make, arrangements for courses in model schools and other non-convent schools so as to suit the requirements of all classes of national teachers.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that negotiations for the establishment of a rifle range at Mullingar have been in the hands of the military authorities for nearly five years, and that all the occupiers of the lands proposed to be taken and all the landlords of same with one exception have consented to the taking of those lands, he can explain the cause of the delay in carrying out the completion of the proposed rifle range.(Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The negotiations have, as stated in the Question, been protracted but are now practically concluded. The hon. Member will understand that it is impossible to commence the construction of the range unt 1 the War Department is in possession of the land required, but as soon as the land is handed over we shall proceed.

To ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that the Pacific Cable Board are about to enter into a pooling arrangement with the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company; and, if so, whether he will veto the proposal in the interests of reduced cable charges.(Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) No, Sir. I have no reason to suppose that such an arrangement is contemplated by the Pacific Cable Board. But the Postmaster General is not directly represented on that Board and has no control over its proceedings. Any further Question on the subject should therefore be addressed to the Treasury.

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the fact that the number of orphan or deserted children emigrated to Canada by Boards of Guardians has fallen from 360 in 1893 to 174 last year, while 934 children were sent out there during the first six months of 1900 by various accredited societies, and for those 934 children 5,613 applications from householders were received: and whether, seeing that the cost to the Guardians in sending children to Canada is only one payment not exceeding £24, while the expense of maintaining them in workhouse schools here is £30 a year, he will take steps to bring to the notice of Boards of Guardians the increased facilities and advantages now existing in Canada for such children.(Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I am aware that the number of children emigrated to Canada by Boards of guardians in recent years has been less than was the case in 1893, and that the number of children sent out by private societies in 1900 was considerably less than the number in respect of whom applications were received. Boards of Guardians have from time to time been made aware by the Local Government Board of their powers in relation to emigration, and the matter was referred to in a Circular issued so recently as August, 1900. I have no reason to doubt that the Guardians are fully informed on the subject, but I shall not fail to avail myself of any suitable opportunity of pressing the matter on their attention.

To ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can say whether negotiations are proceeding with the Government of the Argentine Republic for the admission of live cattle for slaughter at certain ports in this country under due, precautions against the importation of disease.(Answered by Mr. Hanbury.) As I explained in my reply to the hon. Member for North Manchester on the 27th ultimo, we have suggested to the Argentine Government that they should take further precautions against the introduction of foot-and-mouth disease on lines similar to those we ourselves adopt. They have introduced, and, I believe, have now passed a Bill giving them the necessary statutory powers for the purpose, and I expect to hear shortly that a decree under the new law has been issued. If, as I have reason to expect, the terms of the new law and the decree issued thereunder prove to be satisfactory, I should hope that the negotiations which have been taking place may be brought to a satisfactory conclusion.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will lay upon the Table General Dorward's despatch of November, 1901, with reference to the Chinese regiment; and will he say whether a clasp. will be given for Tientsin.(Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The question of a clasp for Tientsin was considered by the War Office and India Office and Admiralty in consultation at the time of the grant of the China. 1900 medal, and it was decided that only two clasps should be given, one for Taku and one for the relief of Pekin. I have no copy of General Dorwards despatch in my possession, but I understand that it is not considered desirable to publish it.

I beg to ask the Postmaster General, as representing the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether he is aware that, by a treaty concluded in 1884, Mr. Joseph Thomson undertook, on behalf of the Niger Company, to pay to the Emir of Sokoto a sum of about £1,500 a year, that the treaty was renewed in 1890 and in 1894, that the Emir of Sokoto in those treaties was made to acknowledge the Niger Company as representatives of His Majesty's Government, and that this country, being still in possession of the consideration transferred in these treaties, has ceased the yearly payment to the Emir of Sokoto, and is now contemplating an expedition in the direction of Sokoto; and whether, seeing that a military expedition is now being sent against Kano, described by the Secretary of State for the Colonies as the Manchester of Africa, he will state what attempt has been made to remove by friendly negotiations the causes of difference between the Emir of kano and His Majesty's Government.

The yearly payment specified in the treaties referred to has not been made since the Royal Niger Company's rights were transferred to the Crown, as the Sultan of Sokoto has always refused to recognise the transfer. Attempts have constantly been made by Sir Frederick Lugard to establish friendly relations both with him and with the Sultan of Kano, but hitherto without success. The reports which have appeared in the newspapers with regard to expeditions against Sokoto and Kano appear to refer to the preparations which Sir F. Lugard has stated that he would have to make to ensure the safety of the British and French Commissioners appointed to delimit the boundary between the Niger and Lake Chad, who will commence their work in January, and who will have to spend a considerable time in the country to the north of Sokoto and Kano. It will be necessary to maintain communication with the Commissioners and to keep them regularly provided with the supplies upon which they will depend, and in view of the present attitude of the Sultans of Sokoto and Kano it is necessary not only to provide the Commissioners with a strong escort but also to take into consideration beforehand the possibility of hostile action on the part of those Sultans and to provide an adequate force to deal with it.

I understand that there is no present intention of attacking Kano?

That is my understanding. The military preparations which are being made are preparations only for the protection of our Commissioners.

Will the hon. Gentleman ask whether it is possible to give any Papers showing the attitude of these Mohamedan Kings later than the last annual Report of Sir F. Lugard?

Yes, Sir, I will make inquiry.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to grant the King's medal to officers and men, who, after serving Her late Majesty, were, on account of wounds or illness (attributable to service in the field), contracted while serving the King, unable, to return to South Africa between 1st January and 1st May, 1902.

As I have already explained to the House, service in South Africa for some period between 1st January and 1st June, 1902, is held to be essential in order to earn the King's Medal. All officers or men who were invalided early in the war and returned between those periods are eligible, even if they did not compleate eighteen months service.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, with reference to the court martial held in Cape Colony by the Standing Military Court, Western District, for the trial of Mr. J. H. Shoeman, M.L.A., can he explain why no preliminary examination was held as provided in the instructions on Martial Law, issued 1st May, 1901, and seeing that a promise had been made by the military authorities to the prisoner's attorney that at least seven days' notice should be given him of the charges against the prisoner before he was brought to trial, will he explain why, only on the day previous to the trial, the charges were communicated to the prisoner, thereby depriving him of the opportunity of calling witnesses for his defence.

The points raised in the question have been included in the letter recently despatched to General Officer Commanding, Cape Colony, on this subject.

Why did not the case come before the Commission?

I cannot say. Of course the Commission took their own course; I have no control over them.

When can we have papers? The case has aroused much interest in Cape Colony.

Time must be given for answers to be made to the letter sent to South Africa.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any representations have been received to the effect that the Particulars section ought to be extended to outworkers in the tailoring trade; and if any, and what, steps are to be taken in the matter.

Yes, Sir. I have received such representations on behalf of outworkers in the wholesale tailoring trade, and after inquiry I have decided that the section ought to be extended to them. The draft order making the extension was published on the 18th of November.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state the prescribed limits for the flash point of petroleum in Pennsylvania and New York; and whether, in view of the recent accidents from the use of low-flash oil in this country, he is prepared to introduce legislation to give effect to the recommendations of the Select Committee who inquired into this matter.

I am informed that the method of testing petroleum adopted in Pennsylvania and New York is different from that in use in England. It is a fire test rather than a flash tost, and merely gives the temperature at which the oil will ignite and burn in an open cup. If the results wera reduced to terms of the flash point according to the Abel close test employed in England, they would show as nearly as possible 63 and 73 degrees Fahrenheit respectively for the States named. As regards the second paragraph, I am not at present satisfied that recent experience has strengthened the case for further legislation in this matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the information he has just given is contrary to the evidence of the experts before the Committee, of which I was a member?

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the fact that under the West Highland Railway Company Guarantee Act, 1896, it was arranged that the sum of £30,000 should be paid by the Treasury to the North British Railway Company towards the cost of constructing a pier breakwater and other works at Mallaig, will he state why the breakwater has not yet been constructed.

This is entirely for the railway company, but I have communicated with them, and am informed that owing to the cost of the Mallaig extension of the west Highland Railway having greatly exceeded the estimate, the question of proceeding with the breakwater has been deferred.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that, owing to the bridge over the Applecross River having been closed on account of its dangerous condition, the people of the district are unable to reach the parish church and churchyard except by wading the river; and will he say whether the Congested Districts Board aid prepared to provide a grant in aid for the construction of a new bridge.

I am not to be held as assuming the accuracy of the statements which form part of the Question of the hon. Member, and with regard to the latter part I can only refer him to my reply to his similar Question on 12th November†, there having been no further action taken in the matter by the local authorities concerned.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state whether the Local Government Board for Scotland have taken any steps to ascertain whether patients suffering from typhus or typhoid fever in the Island of Lewis are segregrated; and, if fever cases are not thus isolated, will he state the cause.

As I have already informed the hon. Member, such measures of segregration as are possible in the Lewis crofters' houses have been employed by the district medical officer, who reports to the Local Government Board that efforts are made to treat the sick in a separate apartment.

Is the Secretary for Scotland aware that there are absolutely no means of isolation for fever patients at this place? Will the right hon. Gentleman make further enquiry?

The Secretary for Scotland is, of course, aware of the fact.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the fact that the school at Tolsta, Island of Lewis, which has 196 scholars on its register, has been closed since the 3rd July last, and that the children have thus lost upwards of five months education, will measures be taken to stamp out the fever epidemic.

I have to refer the hon. Member to my previous answers relating to this matter. I can only add that a Report from the medical officer has been called for.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that the grazings on the southern slope of Ben Wyvis, lying between the hill known as Little Ben Wyvis and the pass of Bailloch Mor, formerly in the occupation of crofters, are being fenced off for the extension of a deer forest; and, seeing that the crofters on the Heights of Strathpeffer have frequently urged that they should be allowed to occupy these lands, will the Secretary for Scotland consider the expediency of introducing an Amendment of The Crofters Act, 1886, so that the Crofters Commission may have power to allocate lands such as those indicated for the benefit of the crofters.

I am given to understand the lands in question form part of the Wyvis Deer Forest. No application from the Heights of Strathpeffer Crofters for enlargement of holdings has reached the Crofters Commission. The Secretary for Scotland is not prepared to introduce legislation as suesested.

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the fact that the law agents to the trustees of the Culloden Estate, Inverness-shire, have commenced the eviction of crofter tenants, will he consider the expediency of introducing legislation at an early date, such as will give crofters holding under lease the benefits of The Crofters Acts, 1886.

I am given to understand proceedings have been taken in one case for the removal of a tenant holding under lease on the estate referred to and therefore not a crofter within the meaning of the Crofters Holdings Act. As regards legislation I have nothing to add to the answers already given to the hon. Member on several occasions.

Is it not the fact that Mrs. MacDonald, who has eight children, was evicted on the 3rd July?

Order, order ! That does not arise out of the Question.

I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that the telegraph staff at Londonderry have been called upon to sign a paper repudiating their personal connection with a paragraph that appeared in the Telegraph Chronicle on 7th November, 1902; and whether this procedure has his sanction.

It is not the case that anyone has been called upon to sign such a paper as the hon. Member describes; but certain members of the female staff at Londonderry of their own accord repudiated any connection with the paragraph in question.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds was Mr. Read, of Stratfan, honorary secretary of the Irish Beekeepers' Association, removed from the position of bee instructor under the Department of Agriculture.

His services at the Glasnevin Institute were discontinued on the ground that his residence in County Kildare was too remote from the scene. He still retains, however, the position of itinerant bee-instructor.

Has Mr. Horace Plunkett inquired personally in this matter, in view of the absurd appointment which has been made.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what steps have been taken in the Irishspeaking districts to circulate in the Irish language the instructions issued by the Department of Agriculture on agricultural and technical training.

The publication of agricultural and technical instruction schemes, promoted by local authorities is a matter that concerns these authorities alone. It is open to them, if they think it expedient, to issue such schemes in the Irish language. The schemes made by the Department in connection with cattle breeding have been printed and circulated in the Irish language. Some of the Department's leaflets will shortly be published in a similar manner.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board can explain why two auditors, who were superannuated, were recalled to duty, in order to audit the accounts of the local boards; and whether it is proposed to appoint from the members of the present Poor Law service two auditors to discharge this work.

The two retired auditors were re-employed pending the appointments, which have now been made, of two auditors on the permanent establishment.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can indicate the nature of the instructions that have been given to Sir Antony MacDonnell as to the preparation of material and collection of facts on which to base a Land Purchase Bill for Ireland.

Sir, I must respectfully decline to discuss departmental communications between myself and official colleagues in respect of future legislation.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board can explain the delays that have arisen in giving effect to the Provisional Order in Cork rural district to increase the plots of lands attached to existing labourers' cottages, seeing that the Local Government Board inspector held his inquiry in 1901; and will he state what steps will be taken to place the labourers in possession of the additional plots of land.

On the 27th October, I stated it had been proved at the inquiry, that the occupants of sixteen existing cottages were not agricultural labourers, and that the issue of the Provisional Order would be deferred until the District Council considered these cases and to what extent the scheme should be modified in consequence. The Council has not, so far, taken any definite action in the matter.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board have received from the Sligo Rural District Council a memorial asking for powers under the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1896, to light the town of ballumote with the townlands comprising Ballymote the area; and will he state what steps have been taken to give effect to this memorial.

No such memorial has been received. It is understood, however, that the Council propose to apply for urban powers to light Bally mote. Upon receipt of the application the necessary steps will be taken in the matter.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the duties appertaining to the position of President of the Council of Defence are still associated wilh the Minister in charge of Education; and, if not, whether he will consider the advisability of placing those duties for the future in the hands of the Prime Minister.

The President of the Council of Defence is not the Minister of Education. The Minister of Education is Lord Londonderry, who is not the President of the Council of Defence. I may add that the whole subject is at this moment engaging the very earnest attention of the Government, and, though I have no statement to make on the subject now, I hope early next Session to be able to do so.

I desire to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the new facts, doubts, and differences which have arisen as to the Sugar Convention, will consider if he cannot arrange for another debate on it in this House, before the Convention is ratified.

I have no ground for thinking that a debate would serve the purpose of clearing up the points to which the hon. Member wishes to direct attention. The hon. Gentleman knows the condition of public business, and he can surely hardly press theGovernment further on the matter.

In moving this Resolution in Committee, I beg first to call the attention of hon. Members to the memorandum on the subject which was presented two days ago, and which gives a very complete statement of the reasons why it is necesary for the Government to ask for more money. It begins with a short summary of the history of the railway, and it includes a memorandum by the managing member of the Uganda Railway Committee containing a comparative table shewing the original and the present Estimates, and an explanation of the reasons why the Estimate has had to be modified. That dispenses me from making any elaborate statement in detail, though I shall be quite willing and ready, so far as my powers allow, to answer any questions hon. Members may put to me on the subject. I may, however, make a few general remarks. It is, perhaps, hardly necessary to remind the House of the past history of the Uganda Railway, or that our presence in East Africa was dictated by considerations of trade expansion, by our hope to fulfill the mission of civilisation which has so long been the function of the British Imperial authorities, and by the position this country occupies in Africa, which requires that we should take our share in the development of that country. I have used the word "development." Any sensible man who owns property thinks it his duty to develop it, and there is nothing more essential in the development of a property than the making of proper communications. It follows almost as a matter of course that if we are right to be in East Africa at all we should make a railway. I challenge contradiction of this statement, that if we were to be in East Africa at all, sooner or later, being established as the controlling authority over this was tract, it was our duty and our interest also to make this railway. Hon. Members will remember that the vast majority of the House of Commons when the project was first proposed were in favour of making the railway forth with, and that it was at once entered upon. Great difficulties almost immediately showed themselves. In the first place, it was impossible to get the requisite labour on the continent of Africa, and an army of 20,000 labourers and artisans had to be transported from India in order to make the railway. In the second place, 600 miles of railway had to be made. The line passed through most difficult country. In its course it reached a point over 8,000 feet above the sea, and in the middle there was a formidable drop of 1,500 feet, which had taxed the ingenuity of our engineers to the very highest point. I may mention, in order to show the kind of country that this railway had to traverse, that there are no less than seventy-live viaducts, as distinct from bridges, and the Committee cannot be surprised to learn, therefore, that in all the circumstances the railway has been an expensive one to build. Including the present grant, if the House is good enough to give it us, it will have cost, in order to complete it, £5,550,000, the demand I am now making on the Committee being for £600,000. 1 ought to say here that as against that sum there is an asset in the shape of stores which are valued at about £150,000. What the Committee will require me to justify is my demand for an increased sum over the estimate made in the early part of 1900. The details of the reasons are to be found in the Parliamentary Paper I have laid on the Table, but generally speaking I may say that it is due partly to causes over which the Government have no control, and partly, I. frankly admit, to mistakes which ought not to have occurred. The first cause was, I think, by far the largest. The line was begun in complete ignorance of the country through which it was to be made. There was not in 1900 even a complete or detailed survey with which to work out the quantities. Indeed, there was no material at that time with which to work them out. On the top of that came the great rise in the price of coal last year, which made an enormous difference in the cost. It was felt in almost all departments of the work. The coal rose in fact from 13s. to 27s., and freights from 22s. to 23s. Then there was the abnormally bad weather. For five months, to the end of September last, it rained continuously, and it began again at the latter end of October. We did not get fine weather until the 25th November. Thus the Committee will see the difficult conditions under which the latter part of the work was conducted. The circumstances were entirely beyond the control of those responsible for making the railway. It was not to be expected that the weather would be so bad as to make it impossible over large sections to do any work at all. All the time, the coolies brought from India had to be paid, and the additional expenditure consequent upon the bad weather is a very serious item indeed in the total cost. Then there is another item which must be taken into account, and of which the Government has no reason to be ashamed. So long as water could not be found in sufficient quantities, it, of course, had to be carried. The cost of carrying water was not a capital expenditure at all, but as water was discovered machinery had to be supplied, and the charge for that was thrown on capital expenditure. It is economy in the long run, but it makes it necessary to ask for a large sum. The Government were undoubtedly over-sanguine as to the time it would take to make the railway, and in generalising from the cost of the earlier portion of the railway to the cost of the whole, it turned out that the latter part of the railway further into the interior was more expensive to make, and that, of course, threw out the whole calculation, which was made on the average of the earlier months. Then, certain things were undoubtedly omitted which ought to have been included. Certain, works at headquarters were not estimated for, for which the money has to be found now. These are, roughly speaking, the general heads under which the greater part of the excess has occurred. The Committee will ask whether, in the judgment of the Foreign Office, there will be any more expenditure. I am not going to enter into any engagement which I cannot fulfil, and 1 do not desire to deceive the House. It is perfectly possible, these works being what they are, that certain extra expenditure may be thrown on the country at a future date. It may be possible, and I hope it will be, that sources of water will become available in much greater quantities than at present. Work will be required to make them useful, and this will involve extra capital expenditure. If there is a necessity for that, the money will have to be found in the ordinary Estimates to be laid before this House. It would, there fore, be rash to say that there is an absolute certainty that other capital expenditure will not be incurred. On the other hand I ought to bring before the House and the country what they have got for their money. They have in the first place got a good article— a first-rate railway. People may differ as to whether a railway ought to be made at all, undoubtedly the money has been expended in producing a good article. That has been testified by several impartial observers. Sir G. Goldie, who enjoys a great reputation, visited the railway not long ago, and has stated that after seeing the line throughout practically its whole length, and visiting its fully-equipped workshops, stores, and other accessories, he has no hesitation in answering affirmatively the question whether there is intrinsic value in the railway in proportion to the capital expended upon it. Sir Harry Johnston, although perhaps not so absolutely an impartial authority as Sir George Goldie, also speaks in the highest terms of the railway. In expense of construction the railway compares favourably with the Cape Railway and that of Natal, the Uganda Railway having cost about, £9,500 a mile, as compared with rather over £10,000 in the case of the Cape Railway, and £11.000 in that of Natal. The gauge of the Uganda Railway is. I admit, three feet three inches, as against three feet six inches in the case of the other South African railways, but the difference in gauge, I am told, makes very little difference in the cost.

What did you pay for the land?

I am informed that the land cost nothing in either case.

£20,000 is put down for it now.

I am not going to make any promise as to the prospects of the line. Trade there is now in its infancy, but the country is a very fertile one, and capitalists in England are showing a willingness to venture considerable sums on concessions which we are granting for trade. But I may say that the opinions of Sir George Goldie and Sir Harry Johnston are again favourable, the former saying he has not a shadow of doubt that ultimately the line will prove a sound commercial speculation, and the latter predicting that in ten years' time the railway will be returning a handsome profit on working expenses, which may enable the Government to pay back to the nation the original cost of its construction. The value of the railway, moreover, is not to be calculated only by its promise of a direct return. There is a considerable indirect economy, because all that is required for the development of the country is now so much more cheaply introduced. The cost of carriage as between porter-borne and railway-borne stores may, for example, be compared. The cost of carriage by caravan was 7s. 6d. per ton per mile; by rail it was from 2 1/4d. to 2 1/2d. The Committee will realise what an enormous difference that is. Applying that figure up to March 31st, 7,417 tons of Protectorate—that is Government—stores have been introduced at a cost of £57,000. Under the old system of carriage by porters, the cost would have been £552,000. The economy which will be caused by the railway is in fact almost incalculable. Without the railway, in fact, the development of our dominions there would have been impossible. With it everything was open to us. In the progress of administration and in the comfort of the people the railway will be an unexampled blessing. The journey from London to the capital of Uganda can now be made, according to Sir Harry Johnston, in twenty-four days, as compared with four months in former times, and the natives will be able to avail themselves of these great advantages when they go in quest of more profitable employment on the coast, or when they seek to sell their products. In fact, from the native point of view, the commercial advantage of the railway can not be, over-estimated. I think that the Government have done nothing but their duty in pushing forward this railway. I regret, of course, that it should have cost as much as it has done, but provided we have got a good article for our money, that we confer these great blessings on the native population, and at the same time promote our own trade. I do not think the Committee ought to grudge the sum I am now asking. The reason why I am asking leave to introduce a Bill for a loan is that this course has always been adopted in regard to sums asked for this railway. It is only just that this method should be pursued, because this is in the nature of capital expenditure. The benefit of the expenditure will accrue to future taxpayers, and therefore the cost ought to be thrown partly upon them. The same method has been adopted in respect of other public works, such as military and naval works, and a precedent is also, I believe, to be found for it in the specific cable expenditure which was defrayed in the same way. This money is to be borrowed from the National Debt Commissioners on the security of terminable annuities payable in thirty years in the ordinary way. I move the Resolution, and I have only to add that, if further information is desired, I shall be happy to answer questions.

said the noble Lord had made a very clear statement, but he should like to remind him of the debate that took place a few sessions ago. The noble Lord's speech tonight was directed rather to the principle of the undertaking than to the details which they on this side of the House ventured to criticise. He had talked of the development of our dominions. If we did undertake the protectorate of Uganda it could be well understood that we had also to undertake the making of railways and roads, and many other things which were necessary to the effective support of our Empire and of good government in that region. The hon. Member said, in 1900, that he was in favour of the making of this railway, because we were practically committed to that or the giving up of the protectorate. Let them take that as their postulate in argumentation. It appeared to him that the noble Lord had forgotten that the point they were making was that the Foreign Office, in becoming a kind ot railway contractor, had been guilty of inefficiency, waste, and extravagance. That was the main burden of the opposition to the Bill of 1900. He did not know that it was expedient for him at present to enter upon the details of the mistakes of which the Government had been guilty in regard to the carrying out of this undertaking. He had, however, this complaint to make, and it might justify him for not talking at length at this stage of the Bill, that he had only had the "Memoranda relating to the Uganda Railway, 1902," for two or three hours in his hand. That Paper was not signed by anybody, and it was only by a process of inference that he could assume it was laid before the House by the noble Lord. It was not sent to his house this morning with the other Papers.

If that is so I think the hon. Member has been very badly treated. It was in the Vote Office yesterday afternoon, and, of course, according to the ordinary practice it ought to have been circulated to hon. Members this morning. Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to say this much. My right hon. friend the First Lord of the Treasury had originally arranged that this matter should be taken on Wednesday, and if that arrangement had been carried out the hon. Gentleman would have had more time to consider the memoranda, but, owing to the exigencies of business, the adjourned debate was put down for today. My right hon. friend, when he altered the arrangement, said he hoped that hon. Gentleman would understand that he did so for the convenience of the House, and that they would not complain that they had lost the opportunity of considering the new business put down for today which they otherwise would have had.

said that, as far as the personal position of the noble Lord was concerned, the explanation he had given was absolutely right, but at the same time, when they remembered that the Session commenced in January, there was good cause to complain of the delay in the presentation of Papers. The Foreign Office made a great mistake when, in 1895, they undertook to carry out this business. There was an experienced firm of contractors ready to carry out the work at the rate of £3,500 per mile and, as a matter of fact, it had cost the country £9,000 per mile. If the Foreign Office would take on its shoulders this work of railway construction as well as other things appertaining to that office, it must expect to be severely criticised for its inefficiency, waste, and extravagance. The Foreign Office appointed a Committee, and he had followed every step taken by the Committee in so far as appeared from the printed documents which had been laid before the House. but, of course, these formed only a very little part of what must be at the disposal of the noble Lord. Colonel Gracey was appointed to go out in an independent manner and examine into the state of things.

He is a member of the Committee.

did not think Colonel Gracey was a member of the Committee. If he was a member of the Committee there had been no independent inspection at all. He understood that Colonel Gracey, who had had experience in India, was appointed as a kind of independent officer not concerned at all in regard to this matter. He was to go over what had already been done by the officers on the spot, and to test the accuracy of the estimates which had been already framed. Colonel Gracey went out, and in his report he made the most damaging criticism in regard to the work which had been done. He wished to call the noble Lord's attention to the question of inclined planes. The noble Lord had said that the railway was finished to Port Florence. As a matter of fact, he had reason to believe, for he had seen the figures, that the inclined planes were by no means finished. He was told by an hon. friend that the inclined planes were only temporary. This was not, perhaps, the occasion for going into engineering details, but he advised the noble Lord to give attention to the accounts for the construction of another African railway from Beira to Umtali, and he would find under every head of expenditure, the construction had been more efficient and cheaper, and quite as good a line had been the result. But the House never seemed able to get to the end of expenditure on this Uganda Railway; every two years a fresh account was opened. The construction of this railway was not a work for the Foreign Office to undertake, and the result had been extravavance and waste of money. As a protest, he moved a reduction of the Vote by £1,000.

saqid it was unfortunate that a Department organised for negotiations and diplomatic business should embark upon the work of railway construction. He was not quite sure that they would be more successful in Uganda than they had been in Brussels. It was inconsiderate to keep back the information contained in the Papers until the day before debate; it was a growing practice which he hoped the noble Lord would endeavour to check so far as his Department was concerned. In the opinion of many hon. Members a sum of £600,000 was a fleabite, but he thought that it was a very large sum indeed. There was no notice in the Paper cirulated this morning of the sum to be asked for. Until a few minutes ago the House had no notion of what the sum was to be. He did not think any private person would be content to be dealt with in that wat, He regretted that they had not had a little more time to consider the proposal. He could not but remember Standing Order 62 of the House, which absolutely prescribed that when such a proposal was made the consideration of it should be postponed to a future day.

It is to go into Committee tomorrow.

said he was perfectly well aware that what was now being done had been usual of late years, but if the noble Lord would refer to the old journals of the House he would find that when such a proposal was made it postponed to a subsequent day appropriated for it under Standing Order 62. In this case a demand for £600,000 was flung at the House, and, then and there, it was asked to vote upon it. He thought that was a highly inconvenient method of procedure. In view of the large expenditure which had been incurred this £600,000 might be considered a very small matter, but it was a straw on the camel's back, and he must take some account of it. Moreover, this demand had to him a very serious aspect. This was the third time that the House had been asked for Supplies this year, and the present vote would necessitate the passing of another Appropriation Act. But it appeared to be easy for the Government to obtain moneyin these days. He pictured "youth at the prow and pleasure at the helm"—the Colonial Secretary in South Africa and the Prime Minister at the helm here. Even the Chancellor of the Exchequer made no resistance. The predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman had the appearance of a mastiff sitting on thecash-box showing his teeth to everyone who came near. There was nothing of the mastiff about the present Chancellor of the Exchequer; there was more of the spaniel, he thought, for the right hon. Gentleman could not refuse anything, not even to the noble Lord and the Foreign Office, when accounts were presented such as no human being ever before looked at, and when reasons such as no human being ever before adduced were made in support of them. These accounts, if not so sad and pathetic, would be positively comic. When this matter was first raised they were told that the railway would cost £3,000,000, and would be one of the most valuable assets of the Empire. He predicted then that it would cost at least £6,000,000. It had already cost that amount, and the noble Lord with perfect frankness had told the House that it was possible that it might cost a great deal more. As to the future, the noble Lord could give them no information. He thought this a good article, as if it were a piece of haberdashery. The Public Accounts Committee had had trouble over the Uganda Railway accounts, but he was not going over the ground they had ploughed with so much assiduity and toil. The Paper which had been issued in regard to the Uganda Railway contained some remarkable statements. He should like to know whether the whole of it was by F. L. O Callaghan, or whether it was partly by the noble Lord.

My hon. friend knows that all the Papers laid before the House are passed by the Foreign Office, which is responsible for them.

said he had asked the information in regard to the authorship of the Paper in order that he might understand it a little better. The hon. Member called the attention of the House to the reasons set forth in the paragraphs (a) to (e) of the "Reasons for the figures in the Revised Estimate" on page 8 of the Paper. The noble Lord gave the House a fearful picture of five months' constant rain, and of everything and everybody being overwhelmed with water. It appeared, however, that if there was too much water at one time there was too much water at one time there was not enough at another. Why, having all this water, did they not keep some of it and use it? Was the rain in one part of the country and not another? ["Oh!" and laughter.] He really thought this was not a thing to jeer at. The Chief Engineer's estimate was plans were completed, therefore the data he relied upon were imperfect. Of course, when the Chief Engineer knew that he had git perfect data, he could work out his calculations to perfection! Then the Report went on to say that the Chief Engineer—

"took the cost of so much of the line as was then finished as a guide, and used the actual cost per mile of each main head of account, modifying the averages in some cases where his experience led him to believe the cost would differ materially from that in the past."

Now here was the comment on that statement—

"Conditions being similar in all respects, this method gives fairly accurate results, but the actual condition proved not to be similar."

Then, it was admitted that the Chief Engineer had very imperfect knowledge of climate conditions, which could only be determined after years of observation. The two years following the date of his estimate proved exceptionally wet. The gentleman never thought of these rains, or whether there would not be rain enough; and then to his surprise, during the year 1901, there was an unexpected loss of 100 working days. How were these working days lost? They were not thrown out of the calendar. The Report went on to say that—

"For 1900 a table of lost working days does not exist, but as the line was blocked for three months the amount would not be less."

Why. they were not told. He would not go into this Memorandum further than that as to details. But, what did the Office say? 'This Office can only form a, surmise '' of the amount of the loss. That was the way the Foreign Office kept its accounts—by forming surmises! He was sorry to go into these matters, but In; had to do so because they illustrated the frame of mind in which the Foreign Office went into the construction of railways. At the bottom of page 10 of the Memoranda there was a reference to rolling stock, which stated that—

" In regard to the increase under this head, the figure of the original estimate was made in this office, and was less accurate than that made by the chief engineer."

Then came this remarkable paragraph—

" The cost of repairs to rolling stock, due to accidental parting of trains, on the steep inclines, already incurred would have paid for a considerable portion of the cost of safety appliances.''

He could not follow these accounts, because they were in such a fearful muddle; and when he came to the explanations of the Foreign Office, he was lost in much greater confusion than ever. Whether the chief engineer was still out there making his poetical estimates for the construction of the railway, he did not know, and the noble Lord apparently could not tell them. It seemed to him to be a very sad and melancholy thing that the House of Commons should be asked again this year for a large sum of money for this railway, and for the third time to make a new Budget. It was still more sad that they should have such imperfect accounts, and, sadder still, that they should have such absurd explanations of them. He could only express the hope that the Foreign Office would leave off making wars and railways, and set themselves to learn how to write a despatch.

said that the House was not in a fit condition to discuss this Bill efficiently after the exhausting labours on the Education Bill. He asked, however, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should at this or some other stage of the Bill make a statement of the various loans which had been indulged in for works that used to be borne on the Budget. As the noble Lord had told the House, they now voted loans for Army works, Navy works, public buildings, the Pacific Cable—all these were new—now they had a loan. for this Uganda railway. He was not at all opposed to the policy of these loans, provided full publicity was given to them in Parliament. They ought to have from the Chancellor of the Exchequer a statement of the amount of money they had to raise for these purposes. He shared the views of his hon, friend who had moved the reduction of the Vote that the Foreign Office was not a Department to carry on railway construction, or a war. Personally, he went much beyond his hon. friend. He had never been a partisan of the Uganda occupation. He did not believe that we had done any good to civilisation, or to the native population of that part of Africa, by going to Uganda. He knew that the extraordinary depopulation of the Unyiro Province was a disgrace to civilisation. If they could not make the West Indies pay, with all their advantages of soil and climate, he did not believe that they could ever make Uganda pay. He hoped, however, that this would be the last the House was to hear of the Uganda Railway.

said that this was a business matter, and the House was forgetting that the Foreign Office were carrying on a trading concern. What he wanted to know was—Who was responsible for the gauge of the Uganda railway being different from that of the railways either in South or North Africa, because the idea was that at some future time all these railways would be connected up. Proper engineering opinion ought to have been asked before deciding on that question of gauge. He noticed that general charges, including administration, amounted to £283,431; but so much were the Foreign Office out of their Estimates lor these general charges that they were now asking for £200,000 more. He did not see their friend the Crown Agent for the Colonies figuring in this matter. He should like to ask how much of that £200,000 was going to that old friend. The noble Lord had told them that he could not say what this railway was going to cost next year; but of the Gentlemen who called themselves by the extraordinary name of the Managing Members of the Uganda Rail-way Committee, he would like to know how many of them had any experience of English or Colonial railways? The gentleman who prepared these Memoranda stated that the cost of rolling stock to September 1899 Was £246,332, and that the cost of the locomotives and other rolling stock to be added would bring up the total to £455,707. There were thirty-six new American locomotives on order at a cost of £92,700, making an enormous total of 128 new engines in three years, together with several thousand trucks of different sorts, to run a train a day for 560 miles. Why there was sufficient rolling srock to run ten trains a day each way, thought there was no possibility of having traffic for such a service for vers! No business man would approve of such a thing. The noble Lord in his Memoranda was not quite correct in saying that the traffic earnings (including Protectorate stores but excluding railway stores) came to £80,797. That was not traffic earnings, but traffic receipts. The gross working expenditure, including maintenance and carriage of railway stores, was £378,891,so that it cost £378.891 to earn a traffic of £80,797. He was not at all sure whether they had got the proper water out in Uganda for the boilers of the locomotives, and it might be cheaper to convert the line into a tramway and run it with horse. The noble Lord had told the House that certain concessions had been given. He supposed these concessions had been paid for in some way. Could the noble Lord put these concessions on the Table of the House so that hon. Members cold see them before they voted this Bill? this was a most serious matter.

said that the concessions had nothing to do directly with the railway. He only mentioned the fact to illustrate his contention that there were a considerable number of persons who had confidence in the future of these territories.

said he would like to know the terms and conditions of these concessions and what the Government were to have in return for them. It was important to know whether there were any Englishmen going out to Uganda as farmers and settlers. If the Government went on in the extravagent way they had done in buying engines and rolling stock for a railway which had no traffic in the sense that English or South African railways had, where there was a large population at both ends, his impression was that they would require more than a million of money to carry on this Uganda railway as a working concern.

said he did not see in the Memoranda any sum put down for the steamers on the victoria Nyanza. How was the cost of these steamers to be provided? He wanted some information as to the surplus stores, Which were estimated to be of the value of £160,000. Were they of a character to be used afterwards? In regard to the concessions he wished to ask: Were they granted for lands in the British East African Protectorate or in the Uganda Protectorate, or for both; and in what proportion were they distributed between Uganda and the British East Aftican Protectorate? When he was at Nairobi at the beginning of the year there were great complaints about the site on which that town was built, and a report was current that it would be necessary to remove it from the plain. Where drainage was impossible, to the adjacent hills. Was there any truth in this report, and was the expense of the removal included in the Vote which they were now discussing?

said the story of this railway was a very old one, and he did not think that much that was new had been put before the Committee on this occasion. They had become used to these extensions of the cost, and compared with previous demands the amount now asked for did not seem a very large one. It was quite hopeless to look at this matter as a commercial transaction. When once we had gone to Uganda the railway clearly had to be made, and we did not go there as a commercial speculation. He did not think any one could put his finger on the precise reason why we went to Uganda or the precise moment when we decided to do so. European countries having decided to embark on the development of the African continent, it was impossible for this country to stand aside; but to say that we went to Uganda as a commercial speculation was entirely an inaccurate account of the matter. He thought the noble Lord was a little sanguine in saying that the money spent on the railway was capital locked up which was going to be profitable in the future, but he thought it would be long time before the railway paid its way. What they had to remember, he thought, was that a great deal of capital had been locked up in this undertaking, and that they had rather to make good what had been put in. They had got to develope the resources they had already got and not lock up more capital in Africa. Attention called to the fact that there were not forty members present; House counted, and forty members being found present —

said the other point he wished to refer to was the fact of the under-estimate of the work. He did think that was a serious thing. It was one of the most notable instances of under-estimating cost that had ever come before the Committee. It was a dangerous thing that the cost of works like these should be so much underestimated, because, if the Committee got into the habit of treating with distrust the estimates put before them, they would become reluctant to vote money to embark on undertakings when the government asked for it. The under-estimate in this case was so serious that it ought to be a warning to the Foreign Office, and any other Department undertaking such works, to do their utmost to prevent any such case of under-estimating coming before the House of Commons again. They were told that weather was exceptional. So it was in every part of the world. But all such things would be allowed for by a contractor, and if he did not allow for them he would very soon become bankrupt. He trusted the noble Lord's statement was true, and that the railway would prove to be a good undertaking: but it certainly ought to be the object of the noble Lord to take the account he had had to give of the underestimating as a warning. The moral to be drawn from it was that the way in which the foreign Office had undertaken the making of this railway was not the right way. It was much better that railways should not be undertaken by government Departments. They had much better be put in the hands of business men. There was no doubt now that the railway had to be made, and, having been made, had to be paid for. That being so, he hoped his hon. friend would not press his Motion to a division. He hoped, however, that steps would be taken to secure that the country was never again placed in the same position they had been placed in over and over again in regard to this matter.

said he was one of the small number of Members in the House who opposed going to Uganda, and who always criticised the extravagant way in which estimates were formed, expenditure incurred, and money wasted; and so long as he was a Member of the House he would never lose an opportunity of protesting against the original sin, whether of a Conservative or a Liberal Government, of going to a place like Uganda for the flimsy reasons alleged by both Parties whenever this subject was up for discussion. He should like to congratulate the right hon. Baronet who had just resumed his seat upon the chastened tone he had displayed, which contrasted very much with his previous utterances upon this subject. This was one of the worst of the crazy Imperial schemes into which in this this country had been misled during the last seven or eignt years. The right hon. Baronet was perfectly right when he said that it would be very difficult for them to say that we went to Uganda for a commercial reason. If they did go there for a commercial reason, that object would never be justified. He had read nearly every book which had been published upon this subject, and he was convinced that if Africa was to be civilsed and Imperialsed, in the best sense of the world, it was worth doing for England's sake: and if cilvilisation was worth supporting and extendidng in Aftica, he would rather that the honour should be Britain's than any other country, Of that he was convinced by a study of the subject following a year's experience in the Niger territory, and he also thought that under the guise of civilisation we should introduce habits and customs that would decimate the native population. This had been proved in the district to which the hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean had referred. They would superimpose upon these people certain habits and customs that would more than counterbalance some of the supposed advantages of civilisation. They would seek to impose upon this subject people customs which were supposed to be in the interests of Imperialism and civilisation, but which were invariably in the interests of the military subjection of people who were better off without us than with us. The right hon. Baronet had said that if we went to Uganda for commercial reasons they would not see their money back, and he also said that it would perhaps never be known why they went to Africa at all. He had read a well-informed article, which put the case in a nutshell as to why they went to Uganda, and the quotation he would now read was in his opinion the real reason—

" Putting aside the practical and optimistic statements in Sir Harvey Johnston's Report, the truth appears to be that Uganda is held for political purposes because it commands the head waters of the Nile, ensures the safety of Egypt to the south, and on the northern side of the Victoria Nyanxa will be the terminus of the Egyptian Railway."

That was the real reason why we went to Uganda. We went to Uganda for political reasons with the idea of commanding the head waters of the Nile, and to secure a link in the Cape to Cairo railway communication. For a political will-o'-the-wisp there had been all this waste of money and human life, and misuse of energy in accordance with the expansionist doctrines of the new diplomacy. Solomon said, many centuries ago, "The fool hath his eyes in the ends of the earth." That was why we were in Uganda. England had got great ambitions, and they knew that Uganda was a wealthy country, and so statesmen thought it was their mission to have their eyes in the ends of the earth and thus waste money and dissipate the strength of this country. He believed that this £6,000,000 which the Uganda railway had cost up to date, might have been better spent in developing their home markets or in developing their trade in India, and in every other part of the British dominions, rather than in this plague spot which Uganda happened to be. Having decided to go to Uganda, they ought to have done it in a much better way. As a mechanical engineer, and as one who was a pioneer in Africa for the Royal Niger Company and a servant of the Colonial Secretary, he felt positively ashamed of the incapacity shown in the construction of this railway. A properly trained civil engineer and practical contractors would shave carried out plans for interchangeable links of line, but the Foreign Office had three converging links with dissimilar gauges, arid had already doubled their estimate of three millions. The Foreign Office had responded to a wave of Jingoism that synchronised with a full treasury, and this was the result. They had employed military men for civil work, without training, without knowledge of the country, or of the language of the Indian coolies, whose lives had been sacrificed by thousands. The noble Lord would probably think he was over-stating his case, but he would quote upon this point from the report of Sir G. Molesworth. What did he think about the officers who constructed this railway? He said—

" The officers are new to each other and to the country, and many of them are new to the language and character of the Indian coolie.''

When they knew that the lives of thousands of these poor Indian coolies had been sacrificed, as the reports showed when they remembered the way in which the cost had exceeded the original estimate, and when they saw the incompetency which had been displayed in the making of this railway, he thought they should at once insist that the Foreign Office should correct its habits and retrace its steps and get rid of this particular class of work altogether, if they were desirous of being known as practical business men. Now they had been told in a very optimistic way by Sir Henry Johnstone that this railway was likely to be profitable within ten years. A railway was not likely to be profitable when in 1902 the following report was made—

"The loss of small materials, fish-bolts, nuts, and keys. has amounted to as much as 50 per cent. due to the matives stealing these small articles."

He notice that on papge 10 of the Paper relating to the Ugada Railway, the expenses of the staff quartes appeared. Althought those officers employed in the construction of this railway did not know the language and the habits of the coolies, they appeared to have got a good idea of the comfort and luxury which was necessary for the. He noticed that for staff uarters to the end of September, 1899, the sum of £75,505 was required, while to the end of May, 1901, the total was £215,117. He thouth the quarters for the officers were on such an extravagant scale as the conditions of life in that region did not warrant. With the refreshing candour which was typical of his distinguished father, the noble Lord had told them the short and simple annals of the poor Uganda Railway. but he must not imagine that he could explain a way the imcompetence which the noble Lord had dwelt. especially as regards the bad weather, were such as ought to have been foreseen, as they were the normal meteorological conditions in tropical Africa. He invited the noble Lord to coonsider seriously whether there ought not to be a change in policy with regard to the construction of this railway, or it it were persisted in, whether he should not call to his assistance the most able and experienced men he could command. There was no information as to the necesssity for voting more locomotives. Locomotives in Africa deterirated more quickly than human beings, because bad water would very quickly eat the heart out of the locomotivie, thus increasing greatly the cost of maintenance and repairs. If Parliament had made pu its mind to spend £10,000,000 or £15,000,000 upon this railway, let them pursue the line of least resistance, reduce the expenditure to a minimum and employ the best men. machinery, and organisers. He hope the Uganda railway would be an objectfesson to certain politicians, and he welcome the period of disillusiomment as to his project whih had now set in. In conclusion, he wished to tell the noble Lord that there was other places in the British Empire upon which he could have spent this £6,000,000 to better advabtage than in Uganda, Where everything would be wasted, with no good results to British trade, and which might Prove a curse to the very peole in whose interest the money was supposed to have been spent.

said the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had asked him whether they were determined that this railway was to be made. They railway was made, and therefore there could be no question about it. They were quite aware of the kind of difficulty to which the hon. Member for Battersea had called attention. They knew perfectly well that locomotives deteriorate with bad water, and that this constituted one of the great difficulties in railway enterprise, because they often met with water which was unusable for that purpose. Hon. Members opposite had spoken of the mistakes they had made. Of course they had made mistakes. Anu contractor or Government or Government Department which undertook the making of railways in an unkown country was perfectly certain to make mistakes, and he felt sure that the House of Commons would be the last to judge the Government so harshly necaise, ostales jad neem, ade. He quite agreed with a very great deal that had been said, and althought he did not agree with all the criticisms, he did most fully agree with the right hon. Gentleman opposite that this railway was never inended to be made, and had not been made, entirely for commercial resasons. Of couse he hoped that there would be some commercial return. It migtt he that the hon. Member for Battersea knew more than sir Harry johnstone about this matter, and it was possibel that the estimates for which he was responsible were too sanguine, but if that be so, all he could say was that he agreed with the right hon. Baronet on the Front Bench opposite that the railway in Uganda was not made for commercial reasons. The hon. Member said that if the railway had been built for benevolent reasons, he desired that Great Britain should be foremost in efforts of benevolence. But he failed to see the consistency of the hon Gentleman. Didthehon. Membersuppos that if we had not gone to East Africa it would have been left alone—that the natives of the country would have continued in a state of Arcadian simplicity? If the British Government had not gone then some other European Government would have gone there, and he was certain that the natives would prefer to be under the British Government than under any other Government. He belived that would command the assent of every hon. Member.

They would prefer their own government.

said that the hon. Gentleman was quite wrong. If he considered the condition of things which existed, he was confident that the hon. Member, who had a sympathetic mind, would not make such a statement. Before the white man went into those regions it was a history of lust, blood, robbery, and murder, and he did not agree with the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean that we had been a curse to the people. On the contrary, though the country had been costly to the Government, he believed that when means of this great movements was written it would be conceded that we had brought, on the whole, nothing but the blessings of peace to the people. It was siade by the right hon. Baronet that the experience of the Uganda Railway should be a warning not a underestimate an engineering enterprise. He had never heard of an engineering enterprise which had not been under-estimated; it was almost the universal esperience of privatge gentlemen, as it was of public Departments of Government. What was the position? Estimates had to be made on the materials available, and he did not think that the HOuse would like the system of an estimate tol cover all possible contingeneies. A very large sum of money would be asked for. and when the Bill came to be paid it would be found that the Government had asked too much. Besides, such a system would almost certainly lead to the Lord Cranborne extravagance which hon. Member wished to avoid. the estimate must be made as accurately as it could be on the material available; there was no other means of doing it. No doubt they were making two bites at the cherry, but no more money would be spent than if the sum had been properly estimated at the beginning. Then, it was asked, why not make the railway by the assistance of a contractor? It was an old story, but the answer was that it was impossible. It was doubtful whether any contractor would have tendered for it.

asked if it were not a fac t that a contractor did tender, and offered a guarantee of a million sterling.

said he was not aware of that.

said it was in the noble Lord's office.

said that the subject was fully debated a year or ago, and no hon. Member was in explaining why contractors could not be employed than the hon. Gentleman himself. He would give the reason why a contractor could not have been employed. The railway had to made by coolie labour.

said he denied that. The noble Lord, in the debate two years ago, referred to the Beira Railway, on which native labour was employed: and there was not the slightest reason why a contractor should not have been entrusted with the Uganda Railway, and should not have employed native labour.

said he could not agree. The Beira Railway was the worst constructed railway in Africa.

said denied that.

said he did not know under what conditions the Beira Railway was made, but it had to lie renewed a few years afterwards. It was, however, impossible to make the Uganda Railway except by coolie laboui, and the Government of India would not allow coolies to be enlisted for I he work except by the British Government. Therefore, the Government had to make the railway; and that was his answer with reference to the contractor. As the lion. Gentleman the Member for King's Lynn was not present, he would not trouble the Committee with an answer: to what the hon Gentleman had said. As to the gauge, he did not deny that he regretted the gauge was not 3ft.6in., but there were good resons at the time for having the meter gauge. It was not contemplated at the time that there would be a great development of railways in the future, and for many years to come the gauge was almost certain to be broken at the Great lakes. As to the steamers, they were paid for out of the votes in supply, and the money had been granted for them. They were in a forward condition; one was on the eve of being launched, and the framework of another had been set up. The criticiosm as to the sanitary condition of Nairobi was to a large extent well founded. A great deal of the township would have to be moved to higher ground, but that did not come under the Vote before the Committee. The size of the figures in the general charges had been remarked upon, but was explained by the over-sanguine estimate of the time it would take to make the railway; the longer the time, the larger the general charges. There were perhaps other reasons as well. The hon. Member for Chesterfield asked as to terms of the concessions in Uganda and East Africa. That was a very fair question, but hardly on the present ocassoin. He would, however, engage to consider how far the terms could be given; and if the hon. Gentleman put a question on the paper, he would be happy to answer it. As to the stores, he thought they consisted partly of construction stock and partly of rolling stock; but he would ascertain, and inform the hon. Gentleman at the next stage. He had answered all the questions which had been put, and the did not know whether hon. Gentlemen desired to continue the discussion.

said that the question before the Committee was one in which he had taken a great deal of interest, and on which he had always found himself in a difficulty as to the votes he had given from time to time. He joined in the criticisms of his hon, friends in reard to the details of the expenditure on the Uganda Railway; and would not enter further into that part of the question. He wished, however, to indicate the main point, which, he thought, was constantly missed by the Foreign Office and by many hon. Gentlemen. They could not occupy all the waste places of the earth, as they had been in the habit of doing for twelve or fifteen years, absolutely without regard to what, was to follow after occupation. He had felt, ever since he entered the House, that the the nation and the foreign Office and the Colonial Office had not taken a business like view of the engagements they had entered into He had found himself at variance with certain of his hon. friends on account of the votes he had given, although they had been given by him on what appeared to him to be a most con sistent principle, viz., that they could notgo a particular point on the earth and occupy it, and then conclude that they would only have to bear the expenses of occupation,When they did that, they found themselves on a long, long road, of which they could not possibly see the end. He thought the House was being steadily drawn into all sorts of enterprises, of the results of which it had no conception when they were entered upon. What he was contending for was that the lesson of the Uganda Railway should be taken to heart by the Foreign Office, the Colonial Office, and the whole House of Commons, as being a typical example of the cases in which they had gone to particular parts of the earth thinking they could occupy them at little expense and trouble, and had found themselves committed to vast expenditure, for which they werealtogether unprepared as the natural consequence of their having gone there. They could not, having gone to East Africa, divest themselves of the responsibilities they had undertaken, not to foreign nations or Governments, but to the aboriginal inhabitants. What had happened in Uganda? They had ruined whatever native Government, bad though it was, which was there.

A very good thing too.

said he was not defending the native Government; but, such as it was, it was ruined. They produced chaos; and, therefore, the character of this nation being what it was they had to restore order and set up another form of government. He was not quarrelling with the noble Lord for having gone to Uganda; but what he was complaining of was that the House of Commons and the country went to Uganda without the slightest idea of what they were doing. He did not think the noble Lord would say that when they went to East Africa they understood that they would be committed to the Uganda railway, and to the civilisation of that huge tract of country. He wished to say that in explanation of the many votes he had given, because he did not think that any Government—Liberal or Conservative—was going to learn anything from the Uganda railway. All Governments would continue to make similar mistakes. His own course was to consistently support such Votes as that before the Cornmittee once the House had made the initial mistake of going to the place at all. He hoped the Foreign Office and the House of Commons would onsider that, if they touched those wild territories at all, they incurred duties and responsibilities to the native races which they could not divest themselves of. He trusted that in future the Government and the House of Commons would take into account the huge responsibilities they took upon themselves when they went with light hearts to Such places, which looked so small on the surface of the earth, and regarding which they thought their duty was over when they were occupied. They had sufficient responsibilities all over the world to tax the power and strength of this country, and he hoped the example of this railway would be taken to heart. The Government ought to make quite sure that they had established good government in their own territory before there was any thought of further annexation or expansion in other directions. Before adopting such a policy they should make quite sure that they had done the best they possibly could for the welfare of the territory over which they had assumed responsibility.

said he was opposed to the policy of scuttling out of Uganda, a policy which (was sometimes advocated. He believed that would be an absolute calamity. They were now in possession of Uganda, and if Great Britain had not been in possession, the Germans and Portuguese would have been there. It was therefore better for the people that Britishers should be there instead of Germans or Portuguese. Would the people of Uganda be better oft'if they were left to themselves? lion. Members are no doubt aware that horrible acts of cruelty are perpetrated by the native chiefs upon the natives. It was a, blessing for those natives that a Power like Great Britain was there to protect them. He would not go into the questions raised in the Report, because the noble Lord had admitted that mistakes had been made, and he supposed there always would be mistakes in the opening up of such a country as Uganda. What he had risen for was to say how much he objected to the adoption of a policy of scuttling out of Uganda. Being in Uganda they should now stop there, and do the best they could for that country. This railway was essential, but he was disappointed at the bad management in regard to its construction. The noble Lord had stated that no contractor would have undertaken the construction of this line, but an hon. Member had already told them that some substantial firms would have willingly taken the contract. He considered that there was something very wrong at the Foreign Office in regard to the construction of this railway, and the noble Lord should look into the matter in order to see if it was not being managed by a number of incompetent men. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea had spoken about the nuts and bolts which were stolen by the natives. Of course, they expected a certain amount of that kind of thing, but the discipline must have been bad, or probably there was none, otherwise there would not be such an enormous loss. The noble Lord had stated that there had been some difficulty in getting out the quantities.

The survey was not completed at the time, and therefore it was not possible to get out quantities.

thought it was a very bad system that the Foreign Oftice should undertake the construction of the railway at all, and it would have been far better if a contractor had taken the work in hand Two years ago the noble Lord told them what a charming country Uganda was, and said it resembled Scotland with its mountains, its lochs, and its moors. They had just heard about the scarcity of water in Uganda, but he would remind the noble Lord that there was no scarcity of water in Scotland. He thought it would be a good thing if the noble Lord would go to Uganda, and then he would be able to tell the Committee whether it was really a Country of the desirable character which he represented it to be two years ago, His object in rising was ot emphasise the fact that as they were now in possession of Uganda they should stop there, but they ought to be more careful in the expenditure of money. he hoped the noble Lord would be able to tell something about the progress of the railway northwards.

said that he would not trouble the Committee with the details about engines, and whether they should have a contractor or not, or whether the right gauge had been adopted. Those details were a little wearying, and he was content to leave them altogether alone. He thought the Government had fared very badly in the criticisms which had been made. No doubt his railway was as made as any such tremendous enterprise could have been done under the circumstances, and after all they must not forget that right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Opposition Bench were responsible for starting this railway. He thought it was time that some attempt should be made to grasp the great principles of this subject. He was glad to hear his hon. friend on the Front Opposition Bench remark that they would have to look at the principle of this matter very soon, and he invited the Goverment not to occupy other territories without having first had experience of Uganda. He asked the Government not to reply to their criticisms in such speeches as the noble Lord had made. The Government ought to grasp a little more boldly the great questions of policy which were involved, and they ought to know exactly what was going to happen. There had been a most beautiful book published by Sir Harry Johnston which Mr. Weir was beautifully illustrated and which would put anybody in possession of as many facts as ti was possible to get from any book on this subject. One part of the book was devoted to animal life and the other to the various tribes to be seen there. These might be interesting facts to those who kept the Zoological Gardens, but they wanted to get at something about the commerce of the country, in order that they might see what prospect there was for an investment. This question was treated in Sir IIarry Johnston's book in a very short chapter, in which the writer was perfectly candid. and in which he gave a most admirable summing up of the whole situation. He said that so far as mineral resources were concerned they had not discovered any so far. Then he proceeded to treat other great articles of commerce. He mentioned coffce, and said that a few pounds had been discovered and there was a good climate for its production in Uganda. How anyone could think that they could produce coffee in competition with other parts of the world he could not understand. Sir Harry Johnston admitted that there were no passengers or goods to be carried, and was that the best thing the Government could tell the Committee as to the prospects of Uganda? Sir Harry Johnston's conclusion was that they must go on with this expenditure for about ten years, but he was not quite so much of a jingo in his talk as his hon. friend who had just sat down. He admitted that they must stay for ten years adn then he said their expenditure would have been something about £11,500,000 expanded upon the Protectorate altogether. What were they to get back? They were now asked to grant a further sum of £600,000, and it had been admitted that they would not get back a penny. Sir Harry Johnston had urged them to try and tempt a few colonists out there, and then he said this money should be capitalised, and the Colony should begin to pay interest upon it. It would be impossible to get any colonists to go out there upon such terms, and the whole burden of this expenditure would be a dead weight upon the Colony. It was quite time the Government took this matter seriously in hand. There was one figure which went right to the heart of the question. They had now spent £7,000,000 upon the Uganda railway.

No it is only £5,500,000 altogether.

said it would possibly be £7,000,000 before they had finished They had now spent £6,000.000, and they were getting no revenue from it. Sir Harry Johnston admitted that there was no revenue to he obtained from Uganda. In sixty years of railway development in Ireland, the House of Commons had spent £3,000,000.