^* said he wished to direct attention to the condition of the National Library of Ireland. The growth of the Library during the last quarter of the century had been great. In 1878, the attendance numbered only 27,000; but in a few years afterwards, when the Library was transferred to the present building, the attendance increased to 50,000, and now numbered about 150,000. He had no detailed knowledge as to the increase in the number of volumes; but it would probably be found to be at least in proportion to the increase in the number of readers. The July bequest alone had added some 20,000 volumes, besides an immense mass of pamphlets, prints, and MSS. What had been done by the Irish Government and the Treasury to meet the growing demands of this institution? It was perfectly true that from year to year a little had been done. For instance, the Treasury had given a Vote of £200—in answer to the repeated requests of the Trustees—for the purpose of cataloguing. That amount had now been paid for four years, and he hoped it would continue as long as it was required, as the work of cataloguing was by no means completed. The work fell into arrear because of the permanent under-staffing of the Library. The gratitude which the trustees showed for small favours was almost pathetic. They referred in their last Report to twenty additional electric lamps, and similar small improvements such as no member of the Committee would hesitate for a moment in ordering any day for his private library, should they chance to be required.

The grievances complained of fell under three beads. Firstly, the salaries of the officers of the Library were not on a proper footing; secondly, the staff was entirely insufficient; and thirdly, the new wing, which was so long projected, had never been built. As regarded the staff, he might mention that two very valuable pamphlets—one a first edition of Fitzgerald's Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám, and the other Shelley's "Address to the Irish People "—were discovered and brought to the librarian by an attendant who was in receipt of only fifteen shillings per week or thereabouts. That showed that the duties of the attendants were very responsible indeed, and that they ought to be remunerated accordingly. Then, as to under-staffing, he would compare the staffs of the British Museum and the South Kensington Art Library with the staff at the National Library. In 1900 the attendances at the National Library were 148,000. The staff consisted of one librarian, two assistants, and twelve library attendants. The attendances at the British Museum were 188,000, or only 40,000 more; but the staff consisted of twenty-eight officers and fifty library attendants. The attendances at the South Kensington Art Library were only 23,000; and there the staff consisted of one keeper and five assistants, as well as a number of attendants. Then as to the lighting of the Library, he found, when he read there a great deal some years ago, that the lighting was extremely bad, and he hoped it would be improved. The new wing was very badly wanted; at present there was no place in which books could be unpacked. He had noticed great piles of wooden boxes blocking up one side of the entrance hall, and he had only recently discovered that they contained volumes sent by an American scientific society, which could not even be unpacked simply because there was no room. Further, the Library required a newspaper department, a map department, a patents-consultation department, a manuscript room, and a cataloguing room. The trustees had over and over again urged the necessity of completing the building, and he earnestly hoped it might be possible to make the necessary provision in the Estimates for that purpose next year. He also hoped that there would be a real change of spirit on the part of the Irish Government and the Treasury in dealing with the Library. He thought they ought to meet the demands of the Trustees in a very different spirit to that which they had shown in the past; and he would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that it might be well to consider whether the Estimate for the Library should be taken from its present position as a sub-head of the Department of Agriculture and put in an independent position of its own. However that might be, he would urge upon the Treasury the necessity of dealing in a very different spirit with the growing demands of the Library, even when all the specific departments referred to had been remedied. It ought to be recognised that the Library had done extraordinary good work in Dublin. It was one of the few institutions which were thoroughly popular, and many people who were debarred from the benefits of University education found their best chance in the reading-rooms of obtaining some of that culture which Cardinal Newman had declared to be the aim and purpose of University education.

^* said he had great pleasure in seconding the appeal made by the hon. Member for West Donegal. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary, as far back as 6th April, had promised that the whole matter would be considered on the next year's Estimates, but the hon. Member for West Donegal had, nevertheless, done a great public service by advertising what had been done by this institution. In Dublin the National Library filled the same position as the British Museum in this country, but it had not a right to a copy of all the books published, and consequently it was only enabled to go on with the assistance of the Treasury. There was no reason now why the Treasury should not build the east wing of the Library. It appeared in the original plans, and was only dropped in 1884 on the ground of economy. The staff, though inadequate, had done its work extremely well, and had always worked to the utmost in its power, but it was ridiculous that a national instituiton of this kind should be crippled for want of a few additional attendants. The inadequacy of the accommodation was shown by the fact that when some years ago an offer was made by the American Patent Office to supply copies of all specifications for patents, that offer had to be declined. The east wing was absolutely necessary for the storage of newspapers, Ordnance Survey maps and patent specifications. In Ireland there was no Patent Office, and the only place in which to follow up patents was the National Library, and there was now absolutely no room to store the specifications of new patents, American as well as English. If Irish inventors were to be given a chance, some extension must be made in order to store all those new patent specifications.

It had been pointed out that the National Library was almost a University institution. One of the great movements in Ireland at the present time was the culture of the Irish language, and he might mention, as an example of what was being done by voluntary effort, that classes in Irish philology were conducted by Professor Strachan of Manchester during the past month in Dublin. He was glad to bear tribute to the excellence of Mr. Lyster, the librarian. He was one of the best officials he knew in Ireland, and was desirous, he was quite certain, of having a complete collection of the works of Irish philologists, such as Zimmer, Pedersen and other Continental scholars, but he had neither the means nor the room at his disposal. If Irish scholarship was to keep ahead in this ntellectual movement into which so many of the young men and women of Ireland were throwing themselves with so much energy, it was necessary that the National Library, if it was to continue its great work, should be complete in this matter. He hoped the Committee would receive a specific assurance that there would be a fair and full settlement with regard to the points put by his hon. friend the Member for West Donegal.

said it was perfectly true that the Library was annually visited by a larger number of students, and was becoming the centre of intellectual life of the whole of Ireland. Such an institution, embracing so large a circle of intellectual life, would, he was sure, be regarded by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a friendly eye. Something had been done, as the hon. Member had admitted. The Member for West Donegal raised, in the first place, the specific question of salaries of keepers, servants, and staff generally. With regard to that a departmental inquiry had been appointed with the consent of the Treasury, and the Committee had now finished its inquiries. When their report was received, it would be carefully considered by the Treasury with a view to whatever was possible being done. More than that he could not at present say. The question of the salaries of the staff would be considered in the light of that report. There was undoubtedly a lack of space and overcrowding, but he hoped it would be partly relieved by the new buildings which would, he trusted, be erected this year. Attention had been directed to the dangerous proximity to the museum of workshops in which a considerable quantity of timber was stored, and steps, with a view to the removal of those workshops, would be taken in connection with the scheme for the new College of Science. From these remarks hon. Members would see that the Government had not been neglectful of interests of this kind in Ireland. A large sum of money was to be devoted to the building of the new College of Science, which, when completed, would add to the group of notable buildings of which the National Library formed a part. He agreed with all that had been said as to the useful parts a National Library could play, and when these new buildings were erected Dublin would have a sort of informal university of arts and literature, and he knew of no country which was likely to take greater advantage of such facilities than Ireland. Everybody rejoiced at the many awakening movements of an intellectual character in Ireland, and he agreed that those movements should, as far as might be desirable, be concentrated around the National Library and the institutions in the neighbourhood. Whether the National Library should be taken out of this Vote and placed under a separate heading was a matter for consideration, but he doubted whether any advantage would accrue from such a change. That agriculture was not incompatible with literature was shown by the fact that one of Sir H. Plunkett's assistants was not only eminent in that field, but held in high esteem as a poet. He could say nothing further until he received the report to which he had alluded, but he would be very glad if it was found possible to do something next year to add to the undoubted usefulness of the National Library.

^* asked whether the expenditure referred to contemplated a scheme anything like that of the completion of the east wing.

I should think not.

^* asked what particular purpose it was intended to serve.

said he could not add anything further, but he anticipated that the overcrowding would be partially removed.

^* said the suggestion that this particular sub-head should be removed from the Vote for the Board of Agriculture was not the essence of his remarks. His point was that there might be an advantage in making the Library autonomous, so that it could deal directly with the Board of Works, the Treasury, or other Government Departments.

^* urged that the Department should not only see to the training of hands in different directions, but also endeavour to promote industries for the employment of those hands when trained. The Department had now been at work for four years, but emigration was still increasing. Hands were trained, but there was no market at home for their labour, and consequently they were going to foreign countries in increasing volume. He desired to enter a strong protest against members of the Agricultural Department delivering anti-Home Rule speeches when travelling about the country in their official capacity. Such proceedings offended the susceptibilities of a large portion of the population, who believed that the Agricultural Department could be thoroughly efficient only when controlled by a domestic Parliament. It was really a scandal that members of that body should make such speeches. Another point was that Irishmen were practically boycotted in connection with positions under the Department. To secure appointment it was necessary for a man to be of any nationality except Irish. That was a state of things which ought to be at once remedied, as it was a stigma upon the national character. With regard to tobacco growing, the Department had done very well. He hoped the investigations and experiments would be carried further, and that whatever reasonable expense they involved would be cheerfully met by the Treasury. The last question he desired to raise was one of serious importance to the agricultural industry—viz., the question of railway and canal freights. An agreement or understanding—he might almost say a conspiracy—had been arrived at between the railway and canal companies to raise the carriage rates. Formerly the canal rates were 25 per cent. below those of the railway, but they were now equalised, and the railway companies paid the canal companies a bonus to cover any loss they might sustain through the increased rates. This state of things ought not to be allowed in a country whose only industry—agriculture—was labouring under such great difficulties, and he hoped the matter would be strictly inquired into.

said he desired to call attention to the inequality in regard to railway rates in Ireland. The town of Killarney was on the Great Southern and Western Railway, but goods could be procured cheaper in the town of Tralee, although that place was twenty miles further from Dublin than Killarney. He agreed with what his hon. friend had said with regard to the appointment of Scotsmen and Englishmen to teach the Irish people dairy work and butter-making. He had come across some of those inspectors, and it was amusing to listen to them theorising upon the best methods to be adopted for the promotion of agriculture. When the Government did appoint a person of Irish nationality they generally displayed favouritism. In regard to one appointment, the Kerry County Council suggested an examination, and the County Council were desirous of being associated with the Department in the conduct of that examination. The Department, however, objected to this. The examination was held, and two candidates were found capable of fulfilling the requirements of the position. One of these candidates was favoured by the Department, and consequently the officials did everything they could to discredit the other candidate. At the examination the candidate who was not favoured by the Department passed a brilliant and better examination than the other one, and was far more fitted for the position than the candidate whom the Department favoured. Nevertheless, when the result was certified to the Kerry County Council it was asserted that the two candidates were equal. In the end the County Council appointed the best candidate, with the result that all her lectures had been most useful. Such instances could be multiplied time after time, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would try and stamp out the spirit of sectarianism which had been displayed in connection with this question.

He noticed in the Estimates items of £1,340 and £1,000 for enumerators and collectors of agricultural statistics. He wished to know who received that money. Was it paid to the police? If so, they were not very good authorities on agricultural questions, and the money would have been better spent amongst the officials of the local authorities, who were in a far better position to supply the required information. There was also in the list an allowance made for the collection of fishery statistics. Was that money paid to police pensioners or to land agents' clerks? Who received that money? He did not think that public money should be used in this way. He noticed in the Estimates that magnificent salaries were paid to the higher officials, but when they came to deal with the unfortunate people who had to do technical and difficult work, such as shorthand writers and typists, he found that twenty-three of them were asked to live in Dublin on a salary scarcely over £1 per week. If those persons were expected to present a decent appearance and to perform their work skilfully the least the Government could do was to give them an annual increment and a decent salary. He thought those were matters which deserved the attention of the Chief Secretary for Ireland.

^* called attention to the threatened destruction of the bee-keeping industry in Ireland in consequence of the prevalence of the disease known as foul brood. The Agricultural Department had put before it nearly two years ago a scheme of legislation on this subject, but they had done nothing whatever in the matter. He understood that they were in communication with the English Agricultural Department upon this question, but he should like to know if some steps could not be taken before the autumn, either in the form of legislation or in some other way by which this disease might be stamped out.

said in reply to the Member for South Kerry that the Department had no power to destroy the bees complained of without the consent of the owners. Unless that consent was obtained they could not do am thing in the matter, for they had no compulsory powers, and all they could do was to make some arrangements to destroy the bees and compensate the owners. At the present time they were in communication with the English Agricultural Department to see if some common principle of action could not be taken with a view to passing legislation to strengthen the hands of these Departments in dealing with this question. With regard to the objection that the education given had not been such as was desired by the requirements of the locality, the hon. Member knew perfectly well that the Agricultural Department acted in this matter in entire concurrence and with the assistance of the local Committee of the County Council.

Yes, and very often the Department override their decisions.

said it was impossible for the Department to start a scheme against the wishes of the bodies who supplied the funds. They must consult the County Council, and they could prevent any scheme being carried out of which they disapprove. With regard to official appointments, it had been asserted that Irishmen were almost boycotted, and that, practically, "no Irish need apply." In that view the hon. Member was entirely mistaken, because there was the greatest desire on the part of the Department to employ Irishmen wherever it was possible, but their first duty was to appoint persons whom they thought were the most competent. It should not be overlooked that the efficiency of technical education had advanced much further in Scotland and England than in Ireland. It was only because the Department could not find men in Ireland as fit to teach in respect of qualifications as they could find in the sister countries that they had been compelled to employ natives of Scotland and England, while they were only too anxious to appoint Irishmen if they had been able to find persons qualified. He hoped that that state of things would rapidly change, and that by means of the technical education which was now being given Irishmen would be found fit and trained for those different posts. Irishmen would undoubtedly get the preference over those of any other country.

The hon. Member had complimented the Department on having made an effort to do something in another matter, namely, to test the question whether tobacco could be grown in Ireland of a character which would be really profitable and marketable, and able to take a stand side by side with tobacco imported from foreign countries. Everybody could see that unless they could grow such a commodity as would demand a sale in the market, there was no use wasting money on a hopeless effort of that kind. Experiments had been made from time to time, and they were being made now, and he hoped that very soon they would be able to say whether, in point of fact, this was a real practical purpose that could be usefully pursued. If it was not, then it should be abandoned. If it was, it should be encouraged and pursued in every way so as to permit of the growth of the tobacco. The hon. Member also referred to the question of railway rates. That was a question to which allusion was frequently made in debates on Irish affairs. It was most desirable, of course, that the railway companies should, by charging only reasonable rates, give facilities for the transport of agricultural produce. Still, it must be remembered, on the other side, that they must not carry that thing too far, so as to prevent capital from getting its legitimate recompense. If they really lowered rates and cut down the profits of railways so low that capital would not be employed, there would be no extension of the railway system in Ireland.

Was Section 17 ever given effect to?

said he was coming to that. The course the Department took was this. Wherever specific complaints were made, the Department invariably put themselves in communication with the company against whom the complaints were made. They endeavoured, by negotiation, to induce the company to make some alteration in their fares and rates to meet the complaint, even where they had no compulsory power to bring them before the Railway Commissioners with the view of having a decision as to the legality or illegality of the rates in force in Ireland. They had succeeded in a number of instances in inducing the railway companies to make changes in their mode of doing business in order to meet the wishes of the people who complained. In a number of cases the companies had not yielded to the remonstrances. The Great Southern and Western Company were brought before the Railway and Canal Commissioners.

And they brought over English counsel to do it.

They succeeded at all events.

The local traders succeeded.

The local traders succeeded, but the case was brought forward by the Department.

The local traders succeeded on their own arguments and on their own merits, without any thanks to the Board.

said that was not his information. The function of the Commissioners was not to enable the public to obtain modifications or alterations in the general rates of any company. They could not go to a railway company and say "You are charging too much. over your whole system for agricultural produce. You are charging too much for this kind of produce, or too much for the transit of cattle." The Commissioners had no power to insist upon a general modification of the whole of the rates of any railway company. He did not know whether it was thought by some that it might be desirable to give the Commissioners such powers. After all, railway companies had statutory authority to charge the rates which they did charge. It was only when they imposed some new restriction which interfered with the action of some other railway company that the Railway Commissioners had power to interfere.

The hon. Member for East Kerry had referred to the methods of examining candidates for appointments under the County Council. He understood it was the desire of the hon. Member that a representative of the County Council should either have witnessed the examination or assisted on the occasion of the examination of the particular applicant by the officer. He did not know whether the hon. Member desired that the County Council representative should take part in the putting of questions to the applicant.

It was to see that the officer conducted the examination fairly.

said it would be impossible to carry out any system of examination under such circumstances. Just imagine a candidate coming before an officer who was sent down to examine him; a question having been asked the applicant gave a reply, and immediately the County Council representative interposed with the question: "Is that a proper answer?"

The County Council only asked to be allowed to have a representative present at the examination of candidates for an appointment in their own employment.

said the examiner had no power to appoint. He was simply sent to see whether a particular applicant had the qualifications necessary to fit him for a particular post. He could not assent to the suggestion that it would be proper to have him watched by a member of the County Council for the purpose of criticising the answers of the applicant, or superseding the officer in some way in the examination. He could not see what other function the County Council representative could possibly discharge. The Department ought not to send any officer in whom they had not confidence to examine any candidate, but having appointed him, relying on his competence to discharge the duty, they should not have him watched or interfered with by the members of a local body, many of whom were quite incapable of conducting the examination themselves. So far as he could see such a proceeding might lead to unseemly altercations between the examining officer and the members of the County Council as to whether the answers of the applicant were correct or not; and whether he ought to receive full, half, or no marks. The hon. Member had said that in the opinion of the County Council the candidate elected was not more efficient than the candidate rejected.

I said that the candidates ranked as being equal, and that the County Council elected the candidate whom they considered most capable.

did not think that County Councils should be allowed to sit in judgment as to the mode in which a particular examiner should conduct an examination. [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: Have they not to pay half the fee? He understood that they had, but he should like to have fuller and more detailed information regarding the case than he had at present. A question had also been asked in reference to police enumerators. He believed that up to the present time it had been the practice to employ police as enumerators and as far as he knew it was still competent to do so. It was much cheaper to employ a police constable as an enumerator than to engage a special officer. He believed that constables were employed, though not wholly so, as collectors of information in regard to fisheries. Then as to the complaints that annual increments of salary were not given at the lower end of the scale. In all the Departments an annual increment of salary was given to the permanent staff, because it gave encouragement to the men to work satisfactorily. But it was quite obvious that that rule could not apply to men who were only occasionally employed, and of whom there was a superabundance. What was wanted in that case was to give a sum adequate to effective service.

said that those interested in tobacco culture in Ireland had had a satisfactory interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had promised to address himself on that matter to the Department of Agriculture in Ireland. He hoped that the Attorney-General would take care that by no oversight the De- partment would refrain in any way from meeting the inquiries of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that his action would depend on what he heard from that Department. He wanted the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Department would act with due regard to the interests of Ireland.

said that as President of the Agricultural Department, he could say that that Department was fully alive to the importance of this matter, and that due attention would be paid to the representations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to the hon. Member.

said he wanted to give a case which happened in his own constituency within the last few months. A head constable was retired on pension after thirty-two years' honourable service; and he applied for an appointment under the Agricultural Department. He had the misfortune to be a Catholic, and a policeman of inferior rank and with much inferior qualifications, who happened to be a Protestant, received that appointment. He was aware that the head of that Department was a Catholic, but he was inclined to think that when a Catholic was appointed to high office he was apt to say that he was as good as a Protestant. He was afraid that the same mildew which had overcome the other Departments had crept over the Agricultural Department.

said that the man was appointed because he had been previously engaged in the same kind of work in the North of Ireland. The Department had never made any inquiry as to whether that man was a Catholic or a Protestant.

^* said he begged to repudiate the charge that had been brought against Mr. Gill, the head of the Agricultural Department, who was a Tipperary man and a townsman of his (Mr. O'Brien), who discharged the important duties of his Department with credit to him self and the Agricultural Board, and was in no way open to the slanderous charge levelled against him by the hon. and learned Member for Louth. It was totally unworthy of the hon. and learned Gentleman to make such a charge.

Vote agreed to.

£37,690, to complete the sum for Local Government Board, Ireland.

said he wished to bring under the notice of the Chief Secretary the extraordinary condition which had arisen at Granard Union in connection with the expulsion of the nuns from that institution. He had given notice that he would move the reduction of this Vote by £100, because he considered that the Local Government Board of Ireland were responsible, both by their activity and their inactivity, for the state of things which had arisen in Granard. It was only since local government had been conceded to Ireland that the Local Government Board had woke up to the fact of the expense of working the poor-law system in that country. For fifty years the Local Government Board of Ireland had allowed a system of pauper nursing to exist, until things transpired which were a scandal to humanity. He did not complain of the action of the Local Government Board in suspending or abolishing the system of pauper nursing; but it was right to say that every cent which was spent on nursing came out of the pockets of the poor £4 occupiers in the towns and villages of Ireland and to the relief of the landlords. When they got the landlords out of the way, the Government insisted that the local guardians should incur enormous expenditure on a totally new system of nursing. That system ought to have been introduced fifty years ago, but why should the nuns be turned out to make way for a ring of nurses trained in Dublin hospitals? Every trained nurse meant an expense of £100 a year. He did not object to the system; what he objected to was the tax it imposed on the ratepayers. When the new nursing order was issued, there were in the Granard Workhouse two nuns and one wardsmaid in possession under the existing system Immediately the order was issued, the guardians were asked to appoint trained nurses.

In some respects the Irish people were very conservative; and there was an old saying in his part of the country that "what was good enough for the people long ago was good enough for the people now." At any rate, the guardians could not see their way to add £400 or £500 a year to the taxpayers' burden. The moment the new order came into force, the medical officer of the Granard Workhouse took it into his head to be extra officious in giving effect to it. He began to find fault with the nuns; and once friction arose in such an institution it was hard to stop it. The Irish were a fighting people, and he was not sorry for it. For four years, from 1897 to 1901, the nuns put up with a state of things which was nothing short of a continual insult on the part of a gentleman who was anxious to give effect to the new nursing order. Then the position of affairs became absolutely intolerable. To meet the wishes of the Local Government Board the guardians agreed to appoint two additional wardsmaids; that met with the sanction of the Local Government Board down to 1900, when it was suddenly discovered that wardsmaids were not trained nurses, although they required to have three years' practical training. In 1900, the position reached such a stage that it was impossible to carry on the work of the institution. He wished to pay a tribute of respect and admiration to Dr. Coey Biggar—he had never met him—for the manner in which he patched up a peace to which all concerned agreed in 1900. The doctor of the institution was requisitioning a trained nurse from Dublin every other week. She received £1 11s. 6d. a week, and put up at the best hotel in the town. The two nuns who had been carrying on the work in the institution were receiving a salary of £30 a year each, without rations or allowances; and they discharged all the duties which a trained nurse might be expected to discharge In order to patch up a peace Dr. Biggar was sent down; and the guardians still refusing to appoint trained nurses, it was agreed that a third nun should be appointed without salary, but that an additional £10 a year was to be given to the other two nuns. He wished to know why the Local Government Board did not adhere to the arrangement made by Dr. Biggar? Why was that via media not upheld? If the Local Governnmet Board put down its foot firmly the necessity for the inquiry which was subsequently held would never have arisen, and the district would not now be in a condition of religious and civil warfare. He knew Longford well for twenty-five years, and during that period no question had agitated the public mind as the question he was now discussing. By adopting a policy of masterly inactivity, the Local Government Board allowed the matter to slide. The right hon. Gentleman might possibly be briefed to state that it was all the fault of the nuns; but did the right hon. Gentleman think that if he himself were subject to complaints by any superior authority day after day, it would conduce to a feeling of harmony, unity, or good fellowship? The right hon. Gentleman must now know that there was no question on which the Irish people felt more deeply than any insult to the principles of their faith, or to the ministers of their faith. Sister Mary Rose stated in evidence that Dr. Kenny, the medical officer, stated that the vestments worn by the priests were not used for the purposes of religion, but in order to make much of their own personality. According to the witness Dr. Kenny also said that theology smiled at crime, and that he was glad he knew nothing about it. That was a specimen of the conduct of that medical officer towards these ladies. How could conduct such as that, continued month after month, be calculated to promote good fellowship and good feeling in the institution? He thought Dr. Kenny had displayed a lamentable lack of all the fine feelings of an Irishman, and that his subsequent conduct in relying on the Local Government Board standing up for the strict letter of the law in all these things displayed a want of tact and good sense of which he ought to be ashamed. It was also a deplorable mistake on the part of the Local Government Board to send down Dr. Smith to hold the secondinquiry if peace was to be restored, because from first to last Dr. Smith proved himself to be nothing but a partisan. Over and over again he overruled and snuffed out the legal representatives of the guardians and these persecuted nuns. The man who should have been sent to hold that inquiry was the peacemaker who was sent down in the first instance. If Dr. Biggar had been sent down to conduct that inquiry there would have been peace in the Granard Union to-day. He did not intend to move a reduction of the Vote; he would content himself with simply stating the facts of the case, which he hoped would receive the kindly and sympathetic attention of the right hon. Gentleman.

said the matter which had been brought before the Committee was a regrettable one from every point of view. The hon. Member had perhaps given a clue to the origin of the difficulty in his statement that a higher standard of nursing was required in the workhouses, but he gathered that the hon. Member, while he realised that the raising of the standard entailed a certain burden on the ratepayers, was not himself an opponent of, at any rate, all the changes which had been made.

Only as regards the time at which they were made.

said the fact that the changes were suddenly made just when the landlords had been to a certain extent relieved had probably led the ratepayers and their representatives to adopt a more hostile attitude than they otherwise would have done. That was probably the fons et origo of the matter. The question could not be judged entirely by considering the courses pursued by Dr. Kenny, the nuns, and the Local Government Board respectively. The conditions under which the nuns and Dr. Kenny had to carry out their duties should be considered. If those conditions could have been ameliorated it would have been well had the necessary changes been made. There would probably not have been this friction if the nuns had had a trained assistant all the time. Dr. Kenny had stated in his evidence that he brought his complaints, not against the nuns, but against the system; he felt that some of the necessaries for proper nursing were not provided, that a trained nurse ought to have been appointed at an earlier date, and that he was constantly expressing his opinion that there ought to be changes. This was not a charge against the nuns; it was a legitimate expression of opinion on the part of Dr. Kenny that certain changes ought to be made. He was bound to say, however, that, while he did not in the least attack Dr. Kenny, he thought he was unfortunate on many occasions in his method of making these communications, and the general manner in which he discussed them with the nuns. The hon. Member had said that he would like to see some amicable arrangement come to. If Dr Kenny expressed his regret for any offence he had wittingly or unwittingly given these ladies, surely the matter might be allowed to settle, and the nuns to return to the workhouse. That seemed to be the only way of arriving at an amicable settlement of the difficulty. If such an expression of regret were given, they might very well hope that the representatives of the other side would accept it, and that matters would henceforth be conducted in a more satisfactory manner. Coming to the merits of the case, he did not think the guardians had placed at the service of these ladies all the accessories necessary to enable them to carry out their work in a perfectly satisfactory manner. The Granard Union was not in a wholly satisfactory state. It would be a result greatly to be deplored if this debate gave occasion to people who were only too ready to criticise the nuns, to say that they were incompetent in the workhouses and hospitals of Ireland, and that their ministrations were not useful or acceptable to the people. That was not the case at all.

Dr. Kenny did not say that.

said that in his opinion, which was formed after close study of the general feeling in Ireland, the nuns were doing great services at considerable personal self-sacrifice, their ministrations were acceptable to the people, and it would be a great loss if, for any reason, their services were withdrawn. He should add, however, that there were some parts of hospital work which the nuns did not care to perform, and which they ought not to be asked to do; it was, therefore, essential, if the poor were to be properly attended, that these ladies should have the assistance of a trained nurse where it could be given, and efforts ought to be made to give it. That brought him to the question of the ratepayers. He had always on this and other questions expressed his view that the rates pressed very heavily in many parts of Ireland, and that it might be right to put up with things in that country which people would not put up with in the great industrial centres of England. But that point must not be pushed too far. He gathered from the hon. Member and from other sources that the guardians of the Granard Union, quite apart from this discussion, were alive to that fact, and were ready to raise the standard of nursing. If the guardians were ready to make an advance in that direction, and if Dr. Kenny was prepared to express regret for any offence he might have given to these ladies, why should not the ladies go back to the Granard Union and all parties endeavour to carry out their duties, thus putting an end to the present lamentable state of friction, the gravity of which he did not in the least minimise?

said that having been professionally engaged in the Granard Union case he felt himself precluded from saying anything further than that he hoped the germs of a settlement might be found in the speech just delivered by the Chief Secretary. On the general question he entirely supported the view of the hon. Member for South Longford. It was most unfortunate that the requisition made by the Local Government Board upon the guardians should have synchronised with the moment when the landlords were being relieved of rates. It was all very fine to say that it was the duty of the Local Government Board to look after the poor. He fully agreed that the honest poor should be looked after to the fullest extent which the pockets of the ratepayers would allow. But there was nothing more maddening to a poor ratepayer on an £8 or £10 valuation, who was not able to afford a doctor to his own wife in her confinement, let alone a skilled nurse, than that when a tramp with an illegitimate offspring came into the union a requisition should be made for the services of a hospital nurse at 30s. a week. It was a monstrous violation of every principle of equity. All his sympathies were with these peasants. He thanked God there was not a prejudice they had which he did not possess. Here were a lot of poor farmers, working hard from week-end to week-end, suddenly called upon to pay these enormous rates just at a moment when the landlords were being relieved, and all because of the fads of a number of gentlemen on the Local Government Board. What did Ireland do for 2,000 years? What did the people do before the Poor Law was established? Was the country any the better since the establishment of this appalling system? There was not a new fad taken up by the doctors but there were people at the Local Government Board to enforce it. If a new drug at £10 an ounce was discovered, the ratepayers were at once called upon to pay for it. Every day they read in the papers of some new cure or some new disease. These things were never read of in the Bible, or in Shakespeare, or in the history of Greece or Rome. How did all these ancient peoples get on? They lived as good lives, and were just as healthy as the people of to-day, but they had no Local Government Board to look after them or their poor. He strongly protested against these medical fads being carried out at the ratepayers' expense; it should be done at the expense of the faddists themselves. It was perfectly true that the prices of these nurses were put up by the medical ring in Dublin at the very time the land-lords were being relieved of their rates. The medical ring were antagonistic to the Local Government Act, and hated the local guardians in just the same way as the Irish judges, when the Land Act was passed, hated the idea of any thing being done for the people and against the landlords. The members of this medical ring—who were always knighted or "baronetted" when such things were going, though why, he did not know, as they charged just as heavy fees—simply because the guardians were for the first time poor men and repre- sented the ratepayers, adopted the attitude that it was a monstrous thing that they should have any consideration. A more tender-hearted people to the poor did not exist anywhere in the world. The poor themselves were hospitable and generous and kindly to a fault, and the notion that the guardians would do anything unreasonable was absurd. They must cut their coat according to the cloth, and it was absurd to expect them to provide the same entertainment and the same equipment as they found in Guy's Hospital. That was what lay at the root of this question. There ought to be some more representative people on the Local Government Board. There was a doctor on that Board to look after the interests of the doctors, and there were some good men upon that body. He did not wish to make any needless attack upon the personnel of the Board, but there was no institution which could not be improved by a little new blood, and if their institutions were to be developed even upon conservative lines, the County Councils should have some right of electing two or three men to sit upon a Board of this kind. Some method should be found to bring this Board more into touch with the requirements of the people. The £60,000 or £70,000 voted in this way was money practically wasted, because if those inspectors were not there at all they would get on just as well in Ireland. Those officials went about the country like loafers, and what happiness or benefit had the people got in consequence of their inspections? The only people who had got any benefit from their services were the hotel-keepers and the cab drivers. The expenditure of this money did not make the people either more prosperous or loyal. The whole system was wrong, and ought to be abolished, for it was absolutely no use.

He would give an instance of the way in which the Board did its work. In the town of Dundalk the Grand Jury were allowed to sell a plot of land near the gaol for the erection of a national bank, and there was no objection to it whatever. Last year he put a question to the Chief Secretary as to whether a temperance organisation would be allowed to have a little strip of land for the purpose of building a temperance hall. One would think that it was a meritorious object to turn a gaol into a temperance hall, and the Chief Secretary stated that the Government—the Imperial Government of Great Britain and Ireland—had no objection to the County Council selling a bit of these gaol premises to this tern perance association. The County Council were appealed to, and they made an order that they would grant the sale of this little strip of land which was wanted for the building of a temperance hall. They took the price fixed by the Grand Jury exactly as was done in the case of a national bank; in fact they put on a little extra, and the price asked was £300. They sent this recommendation up to the Local Government Board, with its army of officials, for their sanction. What did they say? They replied that the price should be £700, and, of course, these poor people, with a little institution maintained by the pennies and shillings of the artisans in the locality, were wholly unable to pay that sum, and they built their premises elsewhere. He wanted to know why a Board of gentlemen in Dublin were considered to be better judges of the value of land in Dundalk than the County Council. No corruption had been suggested. If there had not been a standard set up in regard to the value of this land by the plot sold to the National Bank by the Grand Jury, he could have understood the action of the Local Government Board. Where was the justice of any such decision, and upon what grounds were those gentlemen in Dublin better judges than the County Council who were interested in getting the best bargain they could for the ratepayers? Now the matter was past praying for, because another site had been obtained, and the County Council of Louth were poorer by £300, offence had been given to his constituents by the Local Government Board, and another absurdity had been committed for them to complain of. He did not understand the principles upon which this body conducted its operations. To make the people happy or satisfied, or do something to please them, was the last thing that seemed to enter into their minds.

contended that the services of nuns in the workhouses were most useful, for they were very economical. He quite agreed with the Chief Secretary that nuns would not do altogether in the workhouses, because the rules did not permit them to do all the work. Some of them were trained in nursing, but not all of them, and it was necessary to have a professional nurse. To keep the nuns in most workhouses was most useful. He thought the Local Government Board were going a little too fast in enforcing certain rules upon different workhouses, and they did not pay sufficient attention to the resolutions of the guardians. It was very often much better to allow the guardians to be a little bit wrong than for the Local Government Board to suddenly enforce stringent rules. There was one case in which an officer neglected to pay some poor people their relief for two or three weeks, and he was reprimanded and refused his pension. He hoped the Attorney-General would look into that case. It was true that he neglected some of his work, but after his long and faithful service he thought this officer deserved some consideration. The Local Government Board had now introduced a system of accounts solely drawn up for one purpose, namely, to facilitate the audit. He agreed that they wanted a good system of audit but they also wanted to know where they were, and whether they were spending too much or too little at the time. The County Councils and District Councils were not allowed to publish any accounts, and there was a special clause providing that they would have to pay out of their own pockets if they established any system different to the audit system. He defied any County Councillor or the Chairman of any Board to make anything of those accounts as to whether the County Council was spending too much or too little money, or to find out from them whether they were going to the good or to the bad. It was a totally different system to what they had before, and it was one which absolutely hid from the whole of the electors whether too much money had been spent in the county, whether it had been spent properly, or whether there was a proper balance in hand. They allowed the County Council to publish no system of accounts. The members of a Board going to an election naturally liked to have the accounts as perfect as possible He thought that was a very laudable idea. The auditor could check the accounts and see that a proper statement was made out. He did not think that outside of the County Council there was a single person in the county who knew whether the accounts were going well or badly. It might be said in reply that the accounts were kept on precisely the same system as those of joint-stock companies. They knew that many joint-stock companies were most anxious to hide the state of their accounts from the shareholders. He believed that the reason for adopting this system was to save the time of the auditors. The whole question of economical administration depended upon the way the accounts were kept, and he hoped the Attorney-General would avail himself of this opportunity of putting the accounts on a proper system.

agreed with the hon. Member as to the desirability of publishing an abstract of the accounts so that the ratepayers might be able to ascertain whether their business was being conducted by Boards of Guardians and County Councils prudent'y. The public should be able to see whether proper and legal payments were made, and whether their business was being managed in an economical way or not. It was desirable to publish some form of account, not necessarily very elaborate, which should be within the reach of every ratepayer.

said he wished to support the position taken up by his hon. friend the Member for Longford in regard to what he would call the calamity that had befallen the poor in the Granard Union. He regarded the position of the ratepayers in this matter as only a secondary consideration. He had had a long and varied experience of Poor Law administration in Ireland. He had been fifteen years connected with the Union in his own district, and he could bear testimony to the useful services rendered by the members of the religious sisterhood in the way of nursing. He could well appreciate the feeling in the Granard Union when those ladies were driven out by the action of some officials. No doubt the Chief Secretary had given a rather sympathetic reply, but sympathy would not meet the situation. He ought to put his foot down and take whatever steps he considered necessary in order to reinstate those ladies. The sisters were not there to earn money. They were giving their lives to this work, and the poor people accepted their ministrations in a way they could not accept the ministrations of other nurses.

In regard to the increase of expense he pointed out that for fifty years the old defunct grand juries and ex officio guardians had control of all those Boards in Ireland, and during that time there was no red tape and no commands sent down that this or that should be done to increase expense; but the moment these Boards came into the hands of the elected representatives of the people every attempt was made that possibly could be made to bring on increased expense and thereby discredit the local Boards. He called the attention of the Committee to the action of the Medical Association in regard to the appointment of dispensary doctors. Formerly the doctors who obtained those appointments were perfectly satisfied, and under the old régime they were breaking their necks to get the appointments. Now, however, an organisation was interfering in a way which would be put down by Dublin Castle if such things were done by any organisation representing the people. The Medical Association intimidated young doctors from coming forward to take these positions. In the Tullamore Union, where he was a large ratepayer, a young doctor was appointed at a salary and emoluments which previously were considered satisfactory. No sooner did he take up the position than the Medical Association passed a resolution disapproving of his acceptance of it at the salary fixed by the Union. They expressed the opinion that the salary should be a certain amount. The gentlemen forming the Medical Association were old practitioners in good positions, and he would like to know why they attempted to intimidate young practitioners from accepting such appointments. The result in the case referred to was that the doctor resigned.

called attention to a change which had taken place in the Poor Law administration with respect to criminal lunatics. Formerly the law was that when a criminal became insane he was chargeable to the district in which he was at the time. But latterly if a man who was a criminal became insane, he was sent back to the place where he was born. The result was that the district which had the advantage of that man's labour while he was sane escaped the cost of his maintenance if he became insane. He did not think it was fair that such cases should be treated in this way, and he wished to know from the Attorney-General on what principle that was being done.

said he wished to associate himself with his hon. friends who had complained of the action taken with respect to the Sisters of Mercy or Charity who had been excluded from Irish hospitals. He hoped that the Chief Secretary would take steps to ensure the reinstating of these sisters in the Granard Hospital, where their services were very much valued. What he wanted to point out was that the system of accounts under which the local bodies had to work was devised by an auditor of the Local Government Board. It was an extraordinarily complicated system, and he knew, from experience in his own County Council, that it had caused considerable expense. Their own clerk had suggested to the Local Government Board auditor certain alterations which would have saved a large amount of expense, but there was great difficulty in getting the Local Government Board auditor to agree to these alterations. The last Report which he found in the library of the auditors was only brought down to March, 1902; and he complained that the Government Department were so far backward in furnishing the information which hon. Members really wanted. The delay was entirely owing to the auditors. In his own County Council their business had been well regulated from every possible point of view. They had been making payments in connection with certain roads, and the auditors had passed those payments until the last audit. To the surprise of everybody the last auditor made a surcharge on seven or eight members of the County Council, on the ground that the payments had been made for roads which were not main roads. The money was paid by the County Council for the maintenance of roads which they considered were for the public interest, and in the discharge of what they believed to be a public duty; but the new auditor came along and disallowed these payments He himself had been surcharged to the amount of £20, and other members of the County Council had been surcharged more heavily. They had simply signed the pay-sheets, without any idea that they were incurring any personal responsibility. He had no intention of paying the money, and he represented to the Attorney-General that this was not a fair way of dealing with local bodies. If the view of the local bodies came into conflict with that of the auditor of the Local Government Board why should that of the latter be always accepted by the Local Government Board, when the local body had fuller information than could possibly be had by the inspector? They had adopted, in his County of Kerry, a scheme of direct employment of labour, after a minute inquiry and on the recommendation of the county surveyor, who was a very capable official. That scheme was organised to give employment to a number of unfortunate men who were out of work, and it was considered reasonable, but it had been over-ridden by the representative of the Local Government Board. That was unreasonable, and the right hon. Gentleman ought to make a representation to the Local Government Board that such a policy was neither wise nor prudent. The question of labourers' houses had been engaging the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary. In the Union in which he lived, Killarney, a good deal had been done in housing the agricultural labourers. They had built 151 houses, and 148 had been occupied, but three houses had been allowed to remain vacant, and were now going into ruin, because of some technical objection by the Local Government Board inspector. These small technical objections ought not to be placed in the way of the local bodies. He wanted a Commission to be appointed to inquire into the whole system of the working of the workhouse administration in Ireland. He had had practical experience of living in a Workhouse for business purposes, and one of the saddest things that came under his observation was that ne'er do-weel men and women went into the workhouse, where they found a comfortable home, while honest, self-respecting artisans, when misfortune overtook them, did not go there, but suffered in silence. When one examined the cost of the workhouse system, it was found that most of the money was spent on salaries of officials. He thought a little more should be spent in making the lives of the aged and sick poor more comfortable. He hoped that, after the expression of opinion given by the Irish Members, the Attorney-General would devise some remedy for the evils of which complaint had been made.

said in regard to the question whether the treatment of the aged poor in workhouses would come within the purview of the Royal Commission which had been appointed, it would, of course do so. The hon. Member need not think that he was not in heartfelt sympathy with much that had been said with regard to Poor Law reform. He, personally, thought that the Poor Law system in Ireland was utterly extravagant, and any wholesome reform would be in the direction of making more comfortable provision for the aged sick and infirm, and less comfortable places than the poorhouses actually were for the tramp. The hon. Member also complained of a certain surcharge, but, after all, they must have one of two systems. They must either leave the local bodies to manage their own affairs altogether—a system which would lead to absolute chaos and extravagance—or they musthavethem supervised by some central authority, and if they were so supervised that body must have the power to surcharge. He would point out that there was an appeal by the person surcharged to the Courts of law. If they wanted to merely appeal to general equitable considerations the Local Government Board, who were not tied or guided by strict rules of law, always disallowed a surcharge if they thought there was a real bonâ fide desire on the part of the body or members to carry out their duties properly and legally and no real harm had been done in the case. The hon. Member also complained about certain labourers' cottages which were not occupied in consequence of some technical formality, but the hon. Gentleman must remember that the hands of the Local Government Board were tied in this matter. The law required certain things to be done, and if they were not done the Local Government Board could not do anything.

said these houses were built, and the Local Government Board would not allow the guardians to let them.

said there must be some peculiar feature in the case. If the guardians had built the cottages without authority, then the Local Government Board had no power to sanction their letting them. With regard to criminal lunatics, he did not know to what particular case his hon. friend the Member for North Belfast referred. Perhaps he had in his mind the circular ssued by the Executive Government on 25th May.

assented.

said the lunatics referred to in that circular were not criminal lunatics at all, but lunatic soldiers and sailors, who had to be dealt with under certain Acts. Criminal lunatics were sent to criminal lunatic asylums in Ireland, irrespective of the place of their birth. But under the Army Acts, 1881 and 1884, provision was made for lunatic soldiers and sailors, who had in their lunacy been guilty of crime, and who had either been found unable to plead, or had been proved to be mad when they committed the act. Those cases did not come under the Act dealing with criminal lunatics.

said, although the hon. and learned Gentleman might be right in his law, the hon. Member for North Belfast was certainly right in his facts in this case. With regard to the question of surcharge, he complained that persons surcharged who elected to appeal to the Local Government Board were precluded from afterwards going to the courts of law to seek redress. He thought a person surcharged should have a right to go first to arbitration and then, if necessary, to the courts of law.

raised the question of the disqualification, under the Irish Local Government Act, of persons serving on County Councils, District Councils, and other local bodies, who had been sentenced to hard labour, and hoped the Chief Secretary would take the matter into consideration with a view to the removal of this disqualification.

said he had discussed the legal aspect of this question with his right hon. friend. At present there was a statutory disqualification, and the Executive Government had no power whatever to restore the qualification either by the exercise of the prerogative of mercy or in any other way. He had not discussed the propriety of bringing in any legislation to alter the law in that respect. The hon. and learned Member then proceeded to state the methods in which a person disqualified could be proceeded against in the event of his continuing to sit after disqualification, which he said entailed very heavy penalties and legal costs, and he pointed out that any of those proceedings might be taken by any body interested, and not only by the Executive authority. The only possible way of altering the law would be to pass fresh legislation. It was impossible to carry on any system of local government or any form of representative election, if a man were permitted simply to defy the law and to do what seemed good to himself. He could only hope that these difficulties would not occur again; but whether a Bill could be introduced next session to alter the law in Ireland on this point he was not able to say. He was not in a position to give any undertaking that the Government would introduce legislation on the subject.

said he had listened with great interest to the right hon. Gentleman, because he was considerably interested in the case of two gentlemen in Clare who had been disqualified. The hon. and learned Gentleman was perfectly accurate in what he had stated to the Committee. All this was done in accordance with the terms of an Act of Parliament, and it was not in the power of the Executive Government to interfere. He thought one of the reasons the hon. Member for Longford had brought this matter forward was that he might impress upon the hon. and learned Gentleman the necessity of introducing an Act of Parliament, if not to repeal the whole of the Grimes Act in Ireland to repeal that portion of it which had given rise to all this trouble about disqualification. A case of this kind could not arise in England or Scotland. If a man broke the law and was disqualified in either England or Scotland he could not complain. But the law under which these men were sentenced was a law peculiar to Ireland; it was coercive legislation passed in 1887 for Ireland alone, and therefore it was impossible to compare Ireland with England and Scotland in this matter. It was no doubt a small question, but it gave rise to a large amount of irritation and unpleasantness all over the country. There had been only fourteen men disqualified in the whole of Ireland as the result of prosecutions under the Crimes Act, and it certainly did seem a pity, when that Act had been taken off almost the whole of Ireland, that this effect of it should be left to disturb certain districts. No doubt legislation would have to be introduced if they wished to reverse this portion of the Act, but the hon. and learned Gentleman knew perfectly well that, if the Government did not take action in these cases, no one else would. Could not the difficulty, therefore, be met by the Government doing nothing at all? They had read in the papers and in the speeches of exalted personges a great deal about the dawning of a new era for Ireland. Was it worth while to allow a small matter of this kind to create turmoil and irritation all over the country? He strongly urged that, pending the introduction of legislation, the Government should play a wise part by taking no action. If that were done nobody else would take action and the proceedings would have no result. The attempt to belittle these gentlemen by the imposition of hard labour had signally failed. So far from being regarded as criminals, they were looked upon as having been very harshly treated, and the fact that the hard labour had in many cases been remitted by the County Court Judges had convinced the people that its imposition had been an unnecessary hardship. For the present the reign of coercion was over, and the country was in a peaceful condition. How long that condition would continue depended entirely upon the manner in which professions of sympathy with Ireland were carried out. Was it worth while upsetting the peace of County Clare and County Longford by punishing these men? If the matter was left until next session, and the Government then took no action, he hoped the hon. Member for Longford would himself introduce a short Bill repealing the power to deprive men of the right to serve their fellow-citizens by the imposition of hard labour. These people had committed no crime against the ordinary law; they had simply, by political or agrarian action, brought themselves within the provisions of the Coercion Act.

said he had already stated that he was not in a position to give any undertaking. He might, however, remind the hon. Member of the old maxim that no man need cry out until he was hit.

If you hit me I will sing out.

said it was now admitted that all they did at the time of the passing of the Crimes Act was wrong, although they thought at the time that that Act was necessary for the peace of Ireland. Now that the golden age was beginning to dawn, and the Irish had got their Land Bill and everything else, all these other matters should be forgotten. He hoped nothing would occur to mar the beautiful pictures which had been conjured up to their imagination. They all hoped for the best in Ireland, and if any bitterness on the matter of the Crimes Act existed, he trusted that nothing would be done by the Government to prevent that bitterness passing away.

understood the hon. Member for Stoke to desire the withdrawal of the Crimes Act. He hoped he would not desire also the withdrawal of the money for which he did not vote.

Oh! let bygones be bygones.

Vote agreed to.

3. £10,314, to complete the sum for Chief Secretary for Ireland—Offices.

^* drew attention to the refusal of the authorities to grant the application of Mr. James Harkness, of Nenagh, for a licence to sell arms and ammunition. He contended that the sole reason for the refusal was that the local District Inspector had a grudge against the applicant. He, MR. O'Brien, might say that he had no personal interest in this matter. Mr. Harkness, though a constituent, was no political supporter of his, being a Protestant and a Uunionist, but of Liberal tendencies, which he was glad to say were shown by the majority of his co-religionists in Nenagh. The man was not only a good tradesman, but a respectable citizen. On the first occasion the application was set aside for inquiry, and the letter containing the final reply of the resident magistrate was addressed simply to "James Harkness," without either "Mr." or "Esq.," and the letter commenced not with "Sir," but with "Harkness," marking, in his opinion, the animus against him. Surely even so high an official as a resident magistrate might address a respectable tradesman a little more courteously. The reason given for refusing the application was that there were already two persons in the town holding licences. The population of Nenagh was about 5,000. In a little place eight miles off, with a population of 666, there were three persons licensed to sell arms and ammunition, while in Tipperary, which was about the same size as Nenagh, there were no fewer than six such persons. But in answer to a Question across the floor of the House, a totally different reason had been given, it being then stated that Mr. Harkness was not a fit and proper person to hold a licence. No reasons were given for that statement, and he, having known Mr Harkness from boyhood, declared that he not only was eminently fitted to be entrusted with the sale of arms and ammunition, but was the only practical man in the district who could repair arms. His brother, Mr. William Harkness, who was one of the two licensed persons in the town, was, of course, qualified, but all his time was devoted to his business of a plumber and sanitary engineer, having no time to devote to repairs of arms.

He begged to move the reduction of the salary of the Chief Secretary by £100. If he got some satisfactory assurance from the right hon. Gentleman he would not proceed to a division.

hoped this man Harkness would be allowed to carry on the business which he had carried on for years. He was sorry the Chief Secretary was not in his place, as he wanted to ask him a question or two concerning the Kilmeen, County Cork, tradegy. On Tuesday last he asked the right hon. Gentleman—

"Whether he was aware that a memorial was presented to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland in reference to the case of Andrew Moore, who was convicted at the Cork Spring Assizes, 1903, for the murder of the Rev. Mr. Bell, and sentenced to be hanged, signed by the doctors who examined the body of the deceased and who gave evidence at the trial, and who stated in the memorial that it was impossible for them to say that the wounds on the deceased were ante-mortem; and, if so, whether he will lay the case before the Lord-Lieutenant with a view to the release of Moore, whose sentence was commuted to penal servitude?"

And the reply was—

"So far from the doctors having declared that they were unable to say whether the wound was ante-mortem or not, they in their evidence most distinctly and emphatically stated that it was their clear opinion that the wound must have been inflicted during the lifetime of the deceased. The Lord-Lieutenant, who had had the case before him, had not seen his way to exercise the Royal prerogative in the manner suggested."

Of course he was aware that the doctors stated that in their evidence, but was it not a fact that those doctors subsequently memorialised the Lord-Lieutenant, and stated that it was impossible for them to say that the wounds on the deceased were inflicted during life? He was informed on good authority that the doctors in their memorial stated that the wounds were ante-mortem. Was the Attorney-General aware that the Solicitor-General for Ireland, who conducted this prosecution, relied upon the fact, in addressing the jury, that no evidence of character was given on behalf of the prisoner. If the Solicitor-General wanted to carry on these prosecutions fairly, he should rely on the evidence before him and that alone. He urged that the prisoner ought to be released. In view of the manner in which, the Solicitor-General charged the jury, he asked the Attorney-General to lay the case before the Chief Secretary with a view to a reconsideration of the case.

was understood to say in reply that the hon. Gentleman; was mistaken. The doctors in their evidence at the trial and in their memorial to the Lord-Lieutenant declared most positively that the wound was inflicted during life. This matter rested entirely with the Lord-Lieutenant. With regard to what the Solicitor-General said in his address to the jury he did not think he was wrong in the observation he made to the jury, because it was a mere statement of law.

^* asked why should the Solicitor-General refer to the character of the prisoner at all? Why did he not go on the evidence, because the man's character had nothing to do with the case?

said that the prisoner's counsel urged that the prisoner was a man of good character, and therefore the Solicitor-General was justified in saying what he did.

^* asked why should the Crown Solicitor comment upon the fact at all?

said it was the duty of the representative of the Crown to say that counsel for the prisoner had produced no evidence of the fact. The sentence was commuted, as the jury had recommended him to mercy. In regard to the case of James Harkness, he was quite sure that the hon. Member had called attention to this case in all sincerity, but the hon. Member was under an entire misapprehension in supposing that the District Inspector or anybody was actuated against the man. It was on account of certain circumstances which had not been brought to the hon. Member's notice that James Harkness's application for a licence was refused. His mother had held a licence for the sale of arms and ammunition, and when she died William Harkness, who was manager of the business, obtained the licence. James Harkness, who had kept the books for his mother, set up an independent business, and also applied for a licence to the Resident Magistrate, but the police authorities could not recommend him as a fit person to hold a licence as he was of unsteady habits, and while serving with his mother had not kept the most necessary papers in a business-like manner. The hon. Member who thought that District Inspector Shiel was prejudiced against Harkness, and that he had used his influence against him, wrote a letter on 18th July last, in which he said that if County Inspector Smith had been consulted a correct account of Harkness might have been obtained. That was the person from whom information was received that he was not a proper person to get a licence. As the hon. Member was aware, it was necessary for one who sold arms and ammunition to furnish the police every month with an account of his sales. That was the only way to have a check and to ascertain how much was being sold and who were buying when affairs were in a disturbed condition. This man would never supply particulars; he said he was very busy, or that he had other things to do. The hon. Member knew perfectly well that this was one of the matters alleged against him. The county inspector only stated what he knew, and was not prejudiced when he gave information against this man. There could be no possible ground for suspicion that the District Inspector had any animus against Harkness, but, on the contrary, there might be some reason for Harkness to feel some against the District Inspector who, in his capacity as committee man of a local club had caused the building to be closed at certain hours owing to the disorderly conduct of some members, one of whom was Harkness.

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether the Resident Magistrate would be reprimanded for the insulting manner in which he had written.

said he hardly thought it was a case calling for a reprimand, but he thought, however, his attention should be called to the letter if this had not already been done.

^* said that the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General would recollect that a few nights ago he put to him a Question in regard to this system in Ireland of making police Returns to the Judges of Assize. The great majority of offences committed and reported upon were sending threatening letters. Who sent these letters? He believed that most of them were bogus, and that the judicial system in Ireland, which made these Returns necessary, was indefensible, because one of its effects was to produce criminals like Sullivan, Sheridan, and French. Why should it be given into the hands of such men to prepare Returns for the Irish Judges, who were expected to make speeches on them? Did the present condition of things warrant such an exceptional system? Under what law where these Returns made, and what justification was there for their continuance? His hon. friend the Member for Clare had spoken of the hopeful auguries for the future in Ireland, and while he sympathised with that speech he wondered whether the Committee were aware that certain sections of the Coercion Act were practically in force in several counties in Ireland. What reason existed for the Crimes Act at all? It was passed at a time of excitement, brought about by the Pigott forgeries in 1887. Many changes had taken place in the country since then, and he did not think that under the present circumstances, with all the booming about a better state of things, that this Coercion Act should remain in force. He hoped to get a definite expression of opinion on this subject from the right hon. the Attorney-General for Ireland.

said that Section II. of the Crimes Act, which enabled two resident magistrates to try crimes of a certain character, was only enforced in a very small area in the country; and it was the desire of the Chief Secretary as far as possible to relieve the whole country from the operations of all exceptional legislation. As to the police Returns, with the centralised system of police in Ireland, it was the duty of the police to keep a record of the crimes which were reported to them, and the Judges of Assize, as the representatives of the Sovereign, had a right to demand from the persons interested in the preservation of the peace what information was available as to the condition of the town or district. As a matter of fact, it was formerly the custom to report to the Judges of Assize the condition of the military in each district. He remembered that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose Burghs, when he was Chief Secretary for Ireland, said that after investigation he had come to the conclusion that the Judges had a right to demand this information. Whether it was accurate or inaccurate was not to the point. There was no opportunity of testing the accuracy of these Returns, and they should be taken for what they were worth.

Vote agreed to.

And, it being half-past Seven of the Clock, the Chairman left the chair to make his Report to the House.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again this evening.

said that while Government property was exempt from rating, yet, as a matter of conscience, the Government made contributions in lieu of the rates paid by other owners and occupiers. Government property was of many kinds, such as prisons, barracks, and other buildings; and the main objection to the present system was that the Government were their own valuers, and that any contribution made in lieu of rates was the result of an assessment by a Government valuer. Such contributions were not, however, in themselves adequate; and it put an additional burden on the other owners and occupiers in any particular locality. Where the contribution was inadequate a small minority of the general taxpayers in the district concerned had to make up the difference. That was a form of class taxation of the very worst character. Not only had the ratepayers in a particular locality to pay their own rates, but they had to make up the deficiency which resulted from the under-valuation of Government property. He himself had often protested against the principle of the Government being its own valuer. It was difficult to imagine what would happen if every man was his own valuer. Why should not Government property be valued as private property by the local assessment committee, providing, of course, for some form of appeal or a settlement by arbitration.

When the late Mr. Hanbury represented the Treasury, although the principle was not conceded, there was a great improvement in practice as regarded the amounts paid in rates by the Government, and in fact there was a time when there was no very great complaint apart from exceptional cases; although the exceptions were very marked. He would submit to the Committee a few instances of under-assessment in Islington, Windsor, and Woolwich. In Islington, one of the great Metropolitan prisons covered an area of 4 acres and was rated at only £4,000. Incidentally he might remark that executions were now carried out in that prison, the consequence being that houses adjoining the prison had been vacated, the assessment value being rendered considerably lower. The Northern District Post Office was valued at only £340, and the County Court at £233; and he was assured by the borough authorities and by the chairman of the rating committee that these were very inadequate valuations. Another prison in the locality which covered upwards of 4 acres was valued at only £4,261. These were instances of the complaints which were made by the borough authorities of Islington. The borough of Windsor furnished even a more striking illustration. Owing to the residence of the Crown at Windsor, improvements had to be made; public works had to be carried out; and the streets and roads of the borough were considerably injured by mounted troops passing over them. Yet the valuation of Government property in the borough was very low. The cavalry barracks, which covered 18 or 19 acres, were valued at only £2,350; the infantry barracks were only valued at £1,760: and he was assured by competent authorities that for the purposes of a fair assessment these valuations ought to be at least double what they were. No contribution whatever was paid in respect of Windsor Castle, which covered 3C acres; and in respect of the Home Park, the Commissioners of Woods and Forests paid only £30, which was obviously an under-assessment. Therefore the inhabitants of the borough were compelled to make up the deficiency which existed in consequence of the inadequate contribution given by the Government. As regarded Woolwich, he was assured on competent authority that the Arsenal, the Royal Dockyards, the barracks and other Government buildings, were all considerably undervalued. His noble friend the Member for Greenwich, when the subject was debated last session, spoke very strongly about the undervaluation of Government property in that borough also. As showing the unfairness of the valuation of Government property in Woolwich, he would mention that the gas works at Beckton were valued at £51,440, whereas the Arsenal, which had valuable buildings and fixed machinery and covered eight times the area of the gas works, was valued at only £55,877. That was certainly a great disparity. It would not be fair to occupy the attention of the Committee further; and he would, therefore, content himself by protesting once more against the principle which he had described.

said that he was so often in agreement on administrative questions with the hon. Baronet that he found himself with the greatest regret obliged to differ from him on this occasion. The hon. Gentleman represented with conspicuous ability the interests of municipal corporations in this House. However, he himself trusted that whatever action the Treasury might take in this matter, they would remember the extremely liberal provision which had already been made in this connection. There was a time when no provision at all was made. The fact was that it was a great benefit to a city or town to have these Government institutions. He had in his mind towns which were now competing for the establishment of similar institutions; and he knew that they would be prepared to make great sacrifices to secure them. He believed there was among hon. Members representing country constituencies, at all events, a very strong feeling that the utmost possible limit had been reached in this matter; and he could assure the Secretary of the Treasury that he would receive very considerable support in resisting a motion to increase the present contributions. He again wished to express his very great regret that he was obliged to differ from his hon. friend on that particular question.

said he agreed with what had been said by his hon. friend. Originally, rates were not paid in respect of Crown property; and subsequently the principle was introduced of paying a certain amount as a gratuitous allowance. It should be remembered that there was a great variety of Crown property. In London, they had many museums which were of enormous benefit to the inhabitants. It was obvious that where buildings of that kind were concerned, it would be grossly unfair to rate them as if they were private property, and that they should be handed over to the local authority for rating purposes. If they were handed over, it would be found that they would be valued for assessment at a very considerable sum indeed. When private property was valued, the valuation was based on a just and proportionate principle, because the character of the properties was similar; but no principle of comparison would exist in connection with the valuation of Government buildings, as they were of an entirely different class. The question had been frequently raised and the Government had always opposed it. He himself thought the Government property should be classified. For instance, why should the British Museum, which the inhabitants of the district in which it was situated availed themselves of, and which increased the valuation of adjacent property, be liable to increased taxation? Then again, with reference to post offices, every local authority wanted the post office to select the best site in the town, and to erect the most handsome building; but then they asked the post office to pay heavily in rates because of the value of the site and the building. If a local authority insisted on a valuable building being put up, it was unfair that they should assess it accordingly. The hon. Baronet had taken a most active part in obtaining rates for Government property, and had rendered an incalculable amount of benefit to local authorities, who, he was sure, appreciated the hon. Gentleman's exertions. When, however, a new Secretary to the Treasury was appointed, the demand of the hon. Baronet was certain to be renewed. In 1895 the Government rates in England amounted to £250,800; at present they were £485,500, or nearly double. The buildings had not doubled in that period, and it was obvious that it was the valuation which went up.

said that the poundage had also increased.

said that was so, but it had not increased 100 per cent. In Scotland, the amount of Government rates in 1895 was £20,500, now it was £23,000; in Ireland the respective amounts were £41,000 and £52,000. Scotland appeared to be absolutely stationary, although the rates in the other countries had increased by leaps and bounds. There was great complaint in Scotland that the telegraph wires were not valued, and it was contended that they should be valued just as if they were the property of a private company, such as the National Telephone Company. He hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would be able to inform the Committee what was the amount of assessment now levied on the Osborne estate, which had been handed over to the Government. The total revenue from the estate was only £1,000, and it was probable that the Government would be asked to pay far more than that amount as rates. The hon. Baronet referred to the Beckton Gas Works, but it was well known that the principle on which gas works were valued differed very much from the principle on which dwelling-houses were valued. The valuation of gas works was based on the revenue which was derived from them. A Return should, however, be presented to Parliament showing the valuation of all the property of the Crown throughout the United Kingdom, and the manner in which it was rated; and in compiling that Return it would be important to classify Government property as far as possible. Property of a mercantile character should be dealt with on the same principle as if it were privately owned. If the Government carried on dockyards and other businesses which were also carried on by private enterprise they ought to pay rates just as if they were private individuals. But there was a great distinction between cases of that kind, and, for instance, the case of Windsor Castle. Everyone knew that the Castle did not in any way deteriorate Windsor; the very fact that the Castle was there increased property all round. The population flocked to the Castle, not the Castle to the population. He hoped the matter would be put on a fair footing; but the principle should not be conceded that Government property should be handed over to an ordinary valuation tribunal or even a County Court Judge. At present they had to pay three prices for Government property; and the same principle would occur in connection with valuation.

said the two hon. Gentlemen opposite had discussed the subject brought before the Committee in the able and interesting speech of his hon. friend the Member for South Islington very impartially. The hon. Gentlemen pointed out very clearly what were the considerations which it behoved the Government to bear in mind in considering this question. The question they had to consider was how far money was to be provided by the local ratepayer and how far by the general taxpayer. It was an old principle handed down from their ancestors that the Crown property was not to be subject to rates. Crown property nowadays represented public property; and the effect of putting taxation on Crown property was merely to take money out of the pocket of the public or general taxpayer instead of taking it out of the pocket of the local ratepayer. He listened with great interest to the speech of his hon. friend who brought forward the subject. It was a little difficult to pity the inhabitants of Windsor, for all knew that the cause of the prosperity of Windsor, and in no small degree of its wealth, was the presence there of a residence of the Sovereign. It was perfectly true that palaces in the personal occupation of the Sovereign were not rated at all; but all other Crown property was now, as a matter of fact, subject to contributions for local purposes. The principle adopted by the Department was to send down to the different localities their own valuers, who, to the best of their ability, put on Crown property an assessable value. The valuer made it a rule to see the assessment committee in a locality, and to inquire into the general rating in the district, and endeavoured to find out what would be an adequate and proper contribution to the local rates. In 99 cases out of 100—indeed, in 999 cases out of 1,000—there was no difficulty in coming to an agreement with the local authority.

said the local authorities had to take what was offered, or get nothing.

said that unless there was satisfaction, he did not think they could have the present peaceful and happy state of agreement. At any rate, as a matter of fact, the assessment committees did not make any complaints against the valuations. He ventured to think that was a fair proof of the fairness with which valuations were conducted. Rating matters, no doubt, rested largely on an old law sanctified by centuries, namely, what a hypothetical tenant would be likely to give for particular premises. But there a great difficulty arose, because how could it be estimated what a hypothetical tenant was willing to offer for, for instance, a lunatic asylum, a cavalry barracks, or a submarine mine. It came to this, that they had to take one thing with another; and he agreed that it was a very great proof of the fairness of the present system that so very few complaints were received. Owing to the efforts of his hon. friend, no doubt, there had been a great change in these matters, and public property now contributed more largely to local purposes than previously. But when his hon. friend contended that not only should local property contribute to local purposes, but that the locality should decide what amount should be paid by public property, he could not agree, as it lay with the Government to maintain the balance as between the general taxpayer and the local ratepayer. The hon. Member for Mid Lanark suggested that telegraph wires were not rated in Scotland. He did not understand that that was the case.

asked on what valuation they were rated.

said he understood that the hon. Gentleman's complaint was that the telegraph wires were not rated at all.

said he understood that local authorities in Scotland complained that the amount was not sufficient.

said he was sure that the hon. Gentleman understood the matter thoroughly, otherwise he would not have brought it forward; but he was informed that telegraph wires in Scotland did pay a contribution to local purposes. He did not know that he could enter into any details with regard to specific localities, such as Islington and Woolwich. He would say, however, that, with regard to Woolwich, the valuation had only recently been revised, and in any event the localities mentioned could not be regarded as neglected areas. Wherever new buildings were put up it was the business of the Government valuer to go down and value the premises. The rise in the amount paid in rates was due very largely to the increase in poundage, and also to the new and more expensive buildings the Government were always erecting or acquiring. The only object of the Government was to keep the balance fair between the general taxpayer and the local ratepayer, and anything that hon. Members could do towards that object would be welcomed by the Government and would assist in securing that what was right in the matter was done.

said that on this particular question he had a very varied and wide experience. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury talked of mutual agreement between the Government valuer and the local authorities. He had been chairman of an assessment committee for many years, and had been a party to many such agreements; but they were always arrived at because they were told the Government were prepared to give a certain sum and no more and that there was no appeal. It was a case of leave it or take it; and, of course, it was accepted with the best possible grace.

said that when local authorities wrote and said they entirely agreed with the valuations, he did not think it could be said that an agreement had been extorted from them.

said that was the art of polite letter-writing. It was the duty of the clerk to a local authority to inform the Government of what had happened in the politest possible language. The argument that it was a distinct advantage to a locality to have Government buildings was pushed too far. For instance, what advantage was it to a locality to have such a building as Holloway Gaol? He thought the Government should be put in exactly the same position as a private firm. The hon. Member for Mid Lanark said that although he was not in favour of Government property paying on full assessment, nevertheless Government telegraph wires should be fully assessed. That was the old argument of assessing everybody else. The Government should get over all these squabbles about assessment if they introduced a measure to carry out a proper permanent assessment, to which all property would be liable. At present, many people got off because they had friends on the local assessment committee. Others had to pay more because they had no friends. A post office or a police station had a right to contribute to the local rates just as if it were in private occupation A new ammunition company which was now established at Plumstead was perfectly entitled to say that if Woolwich Arsenal was properly assessed they should not be called upon to pay as much as they were. Surely, it was not impossible to arrive at a proper method of assessment. It was asked why should they rate the Palace of Westminster; but if the Palace of Westminster were removed what magnificent flats could be put up, and what a large assessment they would yield. He hoped the contributions-in-aid would go on increasing until the Government agreed to an impartial and proper assessment.

said there was an item for £8,000 for rates for houses occupied by the representatives of Foreign Powers. That was £1,600 increase over last year; and he was informed that the representatives of this country in foreign countries did not have their rates paid for them. He wished to know if that was correct or not. If it was, it was curious that this country should be asked to pay the rates of foreign representatives, whereas its own representatives abroad had to pay their own rates.

said the rates remitted on the houses of representatives of foreign countries were remitted according to a system of reciprocity. In the cases where remissions were given our representatives abroad were similarly treated.

said he wished to move to reduce Item G—the Government contribution of £10,000 to the expenses of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade—by the sum of £1,000. When this matter came before the late Mr. Hanbury he took very considerable interest in it. Now, however, London had the benefit of two sums—not only the contribution of £10,000, but also the amount paid locally on Government property.

Motion made, and Question put, "That Item G be reduced by £1,000 in respect of the Metropolitan Fire Brigade."—( Mr. Caldwell. )

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 70; Noes, 179. (Division List No. 229.)

Original question put, and agreed to.

And, it being after Ten of the clock, the Chairman, in pursuance of Standing Order 15, put severally the Questions, That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, including Supplementary Estimates, and the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Army, be granted for the services defined in those Classes and Estimates.