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Commons Chamber

Volume 131: debated on Monday 14 March 1904

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House Of Commons

Monday, 14th March, 1904.

The House met at Two of the Clock.

Unopposed Private Bill Business

Great Northern and City Railway (Extension of Time) Bill. Read the third time, and passed.

Corbridge Gas Bill; Kirkby-in-Ashfield Urban District Gas Bill; South Western and Isle of Wight Junction Railway (Extension of Time) Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Great Eastern Railway (Steamboats) Bill (by Older). As amended, considered to be read the third time.

Strabane, Raphoe, and Convoy Railway Bill. Read a second time, and committed.

Great Eastern Railway (General Powers) Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Private Bills (Group E)

informed the House that the Committee on Group E of Private Bills not being appointed to meet until To-morrow, the parties promoting the Corporation of London (Southwark and other Bridges) Bill, which was set down for consideration upon the first day of the meeting of the Committee, had appeared before him and proved that the evidence of Donald Waters, Superintendent in the L Division of the Metropolitan Police, was essential to their case, and that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House.

Ordered, That Donald Waters do attend the Committee on Group E of Private Bills to-morrow, at Twelve of the clock.

Sheppy Gas Bill; Sutton Gas Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Railway Bills (Group No 1)

reported from the Committee on Group No. 1 of Railway Bills; That the parties promoting the Humber Commercial Railway and Dock Bill had stated that the evidence of William Henry Stubbs, of 121, Orwell Street, Grimsby, Pilot, George Cook Burn, of 11, Suffolk Street, Newland, Hull, Pilot, and Thomas Waite Shores, Grimsby, Pilot, was essential to their case; and, it having been proved that their attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said William Henry Stubbs, George Cook Burn, and Thomas Waite Shores do attend the said Committee tomorrow, at half-past Eleven of the clock.

Ordered, That William Henry Stubbs, George Cook Burn, and Thomas Waite Shores do attend the Committee on Group No. 1 of Railway Bills to-morrow, at half-past Eleven of the clock.

Railway Bills (Group No 1)

reported from the Committee on Group No. 1 of Railway Bills; That the parties opposing the Humber Commercial Railway and Dock Bill had stated that the evidence of Captain William Abbot, Commodore of Pilots, Hull, John Edmondson, Pilot, Hull, and Robert Bond, Pilot, Hull, was essential to their case; and, it having been proved that their attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Captain W. Abbot, John Edmondson, and Robert Bond do attend the said Committee To-morrow, at half-past Eleven of the clock.

Ordered, That Captain W. Abbot, John Edmondson, and Robert Bond do attend the Committee on Group No. 1 of Railway Bills To-morrow, at half-past Eleven of the clock.

Franchise and Removal of Women'S Disabilities Bill. Order for Second Reading upon Friday, 25th March, read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.

Bishop's Stortford and District Gas Bill; Torquay Tramways Bill. Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Petitions

Licences (Renewal)

Petitions against alteration of Law; from Nottingham (two); Aberdare (two); Boothroyd; Ynysgan; Barton; Ryde (four); Scunthorpe: Wiltshire; Moriah Miskin; Monkwearmouth; Wrexham; Derby; Sale; Wroxall; Daubhill; Bolton (two); Kirkwall; Hindley; Islington: East Cornwall; Hammersmith; Wishaw; Lincoln; Woodstock Road; and Rend-ham; to lie upon the Table.

Parliamentary Franchise

Petitions for extension to women; from Draycott; West Bristol; and Bristol; to lie upon the Table.

Sale Of Butter Bill

Petitions against; from Brentwood: Lincoln; Redditch; Chelmsford; Chichester; and Rotherham; to lie upon the Table.

Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors On Sunday Bill

Petition from Haggerston, in favour to lie upon the Table.

Transvaal (Chinese Labour Ordinance)

Petition from Claylands, for withdrawal; to lie upon the Table.

Returns, Reports, Etc

Superannuation Acts, 1859 And 1876

Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 10th March, 1904, declaring Nanking to be an unhealthy place within; the meaning of the Superannuation Act, 1876 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Superannuation Act, 1884

Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 9th March, 1904, declaring that Alfred W. Harman, Hammerman, Royal Laboratory, War Office, was appointed without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on the part of the Head of his Department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Naval Works Acts, 1895, 1896, 1897, 1899, And 1901

Account presented, showing the amount of Money issued out of the Consolidated Fund; the amount and nature of the Securities created in respect thereof; the amount of the surplus of Income over Expenditure for the financial year ended 31st March, 1896, and the amount of Money expended in pursuance of the Acts during the year ended the 31st March, 1903; together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 98.]

Public Offices (Acquisition Of Site) Act, 1895, Session 2; Public Offices (Westminster) Site Act, 1896; Public Offices (Whitehall) Site Act, 1897; And Public Buildings Expenses Act, 1898

Account presented, showing the moneys issued out of the Consolidated Fund, the moneys borrowed and the securities created in respect thereof, the disposal of moneys issued to the National Debt Commissioners for temporary investment, and the expenditure, under the provisions of the Acts, to the 31st March, 1903; together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 99.]

Trade Reports (Annual Series)

Copy presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 3125 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Telegraph (Money)

Committee to consider of authorising the issue, out of the Consolidated Fund, of sums for the purpose of the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1899 (King's Recommendation signified) to-morrow.—( Lord Stanley.)

Questions And Answers Circulated With The Votes

Kilmuir Estate, Isle Of Skye

To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state what is the area, net rental, poor law valuation, and purchase price paid in the case of the Kilmuir Estate, Isle of Skye, recently purchased by the Congested Districts Board for Scotland; how much is untenanted; and how is this to be utilised. (Answered by Mr. A. Graham, Murray.) I can only inform the hon. Member that the purchase of the Kilmuir Estate by the Congested Districts Board cannot be completed until the consent of the sale has been given by the Court of Chancery, and he will therefore understand I am not in a position to give him the information he desires.

County Clerks As Political Agents

To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether, having regard to the fact that town clerks are debarred from acting as political agents in their own town, he will take steps to place county clerks in a similar position. (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) There is no statutory disability on town clerks so acting. Whether they do or do not depends as in the case of the county clerks on the regulations of their employers, over which I have no control. The point raised by the hon. Member would be one for fair consideration in any Bill amending the County Councils Act, but I am not prepared to introduce a special Bill on the subject.

Crown Fishing Rights In Orkney

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Commissioner of Woods and Forests, if his attention has been called to an advertisement in which a proprietor in Orkney claims having the Crown rights of fishing, and that the sea trout fishing is strictly preserved; and, if so, will he state whether such advertisement is in accordance with the agreement for lease entered into by the Woods and Forests with the said proprietor by which the public right of fishing was safeguarded by regulations to be approved by the Secretary for Scotland. (Answered by Mr. Victor Cavendish.) The proprietor to whom the hon. Member is presumed to refer has a lease until Martinmas next of the Crown's right as regards salmon and sea trout fishing, with an option of purchase. No public right of fishing was recognised in the lease, but the option of purchase if exercised is to be; subject to regulations as to fishing by the public to be approved by the Secretary for Scotland.

Income-Tax Collection—Assimilation Of English And Scotch Systems

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the differences still existing between the systems of income-tax collection in Scotland and England, he will undertake that the two systems shall be assimilated, both as regards the form of the notices and the dates of their issue. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The objections which have been raised relate to the dates of issue and the form of the second and third demand notices in Scotland. The dates of issue for those are now the same in both countries, and the differences in the form of the notices are only such as are necessitated by the differences in the legal procedure of Scotland and England.

Income Tax Committee And The Grievances Of Clerks To Surveyors Of Taxes

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the proposed Select Committee of this House to inquire into matters connected with income-tax will include such terms of reference as will enable clerks to the surveyors of taxes to place their grievances before the proposed Select Committee as regards their duties, present position, pay, and prospects. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) No such question could possibly come within the scope of the proposed inquiry.

Chinese War Indemnity

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the annual value of the annuities payable to Britain in respect of the Chinese war indemnity; the total amount of private claims lodged by British subjects, the total amount of claims admitted; and further, on what basis of priority the several claims are being paid out of the annual instalments. (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) China disputes the claim of the Powers for payment of the indemnity in gold. The instalments received on account of the British share, converted into sterling, amounted:—For the year 1902 to £301,488; For the year 1903 to £314,157. The private claims lodged with the British Claims Commissioner amounted to £1,606,277, but they have been reduced on examination to £736,906. Almost the whole of the private claimants agreed to accept certificates entitling them to a pro rata distribution as the instalments are received. The distributions so far made amount to 75 per cent. of the private claims, exclusive of a number of small claims and death claims which have been paid off in full.

Trout Fishing In Loch Ness

To ask the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been directed to the fact that there has just been formed by the proprietors of the land surrounding Loch Ness an association to prevent the public from angling for trout in Loch Ness, except upon payment of an annual sum to the association; in view of the fact that this loch is part of the public waterway between the Moray Firth on the East, and Loch Lhinnie on the West of Scotland, and that the public have, from time immemorial, exercised the right of angling therein, does he propose to take any steps for the protection of the public right of angling. (Answered by Mr. A. Graham Murray.) My attention has not been directed to the matter referred to by the hon. Member, but as the trout fishing in Loch Ness necessarily belongs to the riparian owners there is no action possible on my part.

Porterage Of Telegrams

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will consider the advisability of charging porterage, in the case of telegrams which are carried by post office messengers more than three miles, from the end of the three mile limit and not from the telegraph office. (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I have recently considered this matter, but I regret that I am not in a position to recommend the sacrifice of revenue which must be entailed by the alteration suggested by the hon. Member.

Sick Leave In Belfast Post Office

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the medical officer at Belfast directs the men to resume duty on a particular day, but advises the Department that they will be able to resume duty at an earlier date; and that as a result officials are often reported for exceeding their sick leave; and, if so, will he give instructions that the medical officer gives his orders to resume duty in writing, the duplicate of his advice to be sent to the Department. (Answered by Lord Stanley.) A recent case has been brought to my notice in which a sorting clerk and telegraphist at Belfast did not attend for duty on the day named by the medical officer. The circumstances of this case do not correspond accurately to those described by the hon. Member, but I am not aware of any other recent cases of the same character. I do not consider that any change of practice is required.

Belfast Sorting Office

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the condition in which the sorting office in Belfast is kept, and of the fact that the corps of cleaners is composed of a number of women insufficiently paid; and, if so, will he explain why the recent regulations in regard to cleaning are not carried out in Belfast. (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I am informed that an adequate staff is employed on cleaning duties at the Belfast post office, including the sorting office, and that the work is done efficiently, and in accordance with the instructions issued last year. The women are paid at the local rate of wages for work of the same class, and applications for situations as cleaners are numerous on the rare occasions when vacancies occur.

Farmers' Co-Operative Societies—Translation Into Welsh Of Board Of Agriculture Leaflet

To ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, having regard to the importance of the formation of farmers' co-operative societies, and with the view to promoting the movement amongst farmers in Wales, he will consider the question of having translated into Welsh the leaflet on the subject issued by the Board of Agriculture in December, 1903, and numbered 97. (Answered by Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.) We quite agree with the suggestion made by the hon. Member that the leaflet to which he refers should be published in Welsh, and arrangements will be made for the purpose so soon as some later details for which we are asking as to the working of some of the societies mentioned in the leaflet have been obtained.

Naval Reserve Men And The Merchant Service

To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that, in the shipping office, Cardiff, on 2nd and 3rd March, a notice was displayed to the effect that a steamer wanted sixteen firemen and ten sailors, wages £3 10s., which was £1 below the current rate of the port she belonged to, and that only Naval Reserve men need apply; and, seeing that Naval Reserve men are informed that the fact of their being BO enables them to command better pay, will he arrange that in future no such notice shall be allowed at shipping offices under his Department. (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The notice to which the hon. Member refers was issued for the purpose of informing Royal Naval Reserve men that a crew would be signed on for a certain vessel at a certain time, and at a stated rate of wages, and that the master was willing to engage Reserve men. Neither the Board of Trade nor its officers have power to interfere with the rate of wages paid at any port nor, so far as I am aware, has any authority informed Royal Naval Reserve men that they can command better pay than others. I am informed that, as a matter of fact, £3 15s. a month was actually agreed upon in the case referred to in the Question, and that of the men engaged five belonged to the Reserve. The notices exhibited at the Mercantile Marine Offices announcing what ships are in need of crews are found to be useful to seamen seeking employment, and I am not prepared to direct that they should be discontinued.

Christmas, 1902.Christmas, 1903.
First Class.Second Class.Total.First Class.Second Class.Total.
Men5219331,4515501,0161,506
Women1,5772,9594,5361,9043,4325,336
Total2,0983,8925,9872,4544,4486,902

It must be remembered that the numbers for 1903 include a considerable number of persons who passed in the first or second class in 1902, but who entered again in order to secure a higher place. There are also a certain number who are unable to pass the medical examination which is required before admission to a college. In October, 1903, 3,439 students were admitted to training colleges. 1,186 men were admitted, of whom 1,001 had passed the King's Scholarship, and 156

Report Of Torpedo Boat Destroyers Committee

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Committee upon Torpedo Boat Destroyers has reported; and, if so, whether he will lay their Report upon the Table. (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) This Committee reported in July last. It is not proposed to publish their Report.

King's Scholarship Examinations

To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education if he will say what was the number of the candidates for the King's Scholarship examination who passed in the first or second class at the last two examinations; and what proportion of these candidates can be accommodated in the existing training colleges. (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The following table gives the number of candidates for the King's Scholarship examination who passed in the first or second class at the last two examinations:—

some equivalent examination. 2,253 women were admitted, of whom 1,872 had passed the King's Scholarship, and 293 some equivalent examination. She remainder in either case were admitted under Articles 115 ( b) and ( c). The Board have as yet no accurate information as to the number of places which will be available in October next, but they anticipate that there will not be less than 1,250 places for men and 2,550 for women, or not less than 3,800 in all.

Exports Of Indian And Ceylon Teas Into Russia

To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will state the quantity and

1901–2.Direct Exports to Russia.Re-Exports from the United Kingdom.Total.
Quantity.Value.Quantity.Value.Quantity.Value.
lbs.£lbs.£lbs.£
British India1,624,58035,833842,37430,1382,466,95465,971
Ceylon9,597,459211,1441,686,31261,16411,283,771272,308
11,222,039246,9772,528,68691,30213,750,725338,279

1902–3.Direct Exports to Russia.Re-Exports from the United Kingdom.Total.
Quantity.Value.Quantity.Value.Quantity.Value.
lbs.£lbs.£lbs.£
British India3,967,836100,5542,886,44594,7786,854,281195,332
Ceylon11,403,975273,6953,647,807124,79415,051,782398,489
15,371,811374,2496,534,252219,57221,906,063593,821

The figures showing exports from India are for the years ending 31st March, 1902, and 31st March, 1903, respectively. The Ceylon and United Kingdom figures are for the calendar years 1901 and 1902 respectively, their Trade Returns being made up for the calendar year.

Madras Presidency College—Professorship Of Biology

To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that on the professorship of biology at the Madras Presidency College becoming vacant, Mr. K. R. Menon, Assistant Professor of Biology, was appointed to act in the place of Dr. Bourne, a specialist in zoology, and has filled the position for two years; and whether, seeing that the Madras Government now proposes to supersede Mr. Menon by a specialist in botany from England, he will take steps to secure that Mr. Menon's

value of Indian and Ceylon tea exported into Russia in 1901–2 and 1902–3.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The figures are as follows:—

qualifications and claims to the appointment shall be considered.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I will take care that Mr. Menon's claims to the post are fully considered, but I cannot promise that lie will be appointed to it.

Salaries Of Irish National School Teachers

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state how many assistant masters, assistant mistresses, principal masters, and principal mistresses, are receiving salaries in Irish national schools under following heads: from £50 to £100 per annum: £100 to £125 per annum; £125 to £150 per annum; £150 to £175 per annum; £175 to £200 per annum; £200 to £250 per annum; and the average salaries of these four classes of teachers. (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Salaries (including Residual Grant) of assistant teachers, and principal teachers, masters, and mistresses in the Board's service,

Assistants.Principals.
Masters.Mistresses.Masters.Mistresses.
£50 to £1001,0541,8992,6612,381
£100 to £1259181,182575
£125 to £150178483138
£150 to £1751115176
£175 to £2001068
£200 to £250355
Totals1,0911,9254,6183,183

2. Average Salaries:—Assistant teachers: masters £70, mistresses £62; Principal teachers: masters £100, mistresses £85.

Royal Irish Constabulary—Publication In Constabulary Gazette Of Evidence Of An Inquiry

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary sent a letter to the Editor of the Constabulary Gazette asking him not to publish the evidence given at a recent Court of inquiry, held in county Mayo, where Constable Anderson was charged with offences against discipline; and will he say under what circumstances was the publication withheld. (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The reply to the first inquiry is in the affirmative. The editor expressed his appreciation of the Inspector-General's suggestion, and declared his intention not to publish the remainder of the evidence.

Ireland—Return Of Scheme Of Cottages

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state when the Return in connection with the latest completed scheme of cottages, under

and the average salaries of these four classes.

1. Salaries:—

the Labourers (Ireland) Acts, moved for on the 9th February, 1904, will be laid upon the Table of the House.

( Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) Application has been made to the clerks of rural district councils for the information indicated in the Return, which is not readily ascertainable. Some weeks must elapse, I am afraid, before it can be completed.

Payment Of Temporary Medical Officers In Ireland

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the action of the Local Government Board in refusing to sanction payment; of half-fees of medical practitioners acting as locum tenens in the Hollywell Dispensary District of the Enniskillen Union, county Fermanagh, during the enforced absence of Dr. Tate, the medical officer of the district, because of a serious accident; will he say what are the grounds on which said refusal was based; and whether, in view of the amount of the sum and the poverty of the division, he will instruct the Local Government Board to sanction the payment of the amount in question. (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) There is no statutory provision enabling the Board to allow recoupment to the local authority in respect of this service, and the Board is unable, therefore, to sanction the payment.

Future Of The Volunteer Force—Report Of Royal Commission

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the existing state of uncertainty as regards the future of the Volunteer Force, and the inconvenience occasioned thereby to all ranks of the force, he can indicate approximately any date on which the Report of the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the organisation and conditions of service of (he Volunteers is likely to be issued. (Answered, by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The taking of evidence is

Militia.Yeomanry.Volunteers.
£s.d.£s.d.£s.d.
1893–4.101801090500
1903–4.184026130660

These figures are arrived at by dividing the total estimated charges for the several forces by their effective numbers, according to the latest returns prior to the Estimates. The cost per head of the Militia for 1903–4 is somewhat below normal, as provision was not made for training the whole of the force that year. The Yeomanry Vote for 1903–4 is somewhat high, as the Estimate provided for an establishment considerably in excess of the effectives at the beginning of the year. If the number, 29,000, for which the Estimate provided were taken as the divisor, the cost would be £21 2s. 8d. per head.

Transvaal Chinese Labour Ordinance— Regulations

To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the regulations under the Transvaal Chinese Labour Ordinance have now been settled and approved, and when the House will be in possession of the regulations. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The regulations have not been finally finished and the Report is being considered. I have as yet received no intimation as to when the Commission are likely to present their Report. I trust, however, that it will be soon.

Militia, Yeomanry, And Volunteers—Cost Per Head

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state the cost per head of the Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers in the years 1893–94 and 1903–4. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) The cost per head of the Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers (including in each case the permanent staff) in the years 1893–4 and 1903–4 is estimated to be:—

settled. I cannot fix a date when they will be laid before the House.

Recommendation Of Miners Phthisis Commission In The Transvaal

To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any steps have been taken to carry out the recommendations of the Miners Phthisis Commission appointed for the Transvaal in 1902. (Answered, by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) Lord Milner informs me that a great deal has been and is being done to improve the sanitary condition of the mines generally, and to minimise specific danger in the dusty parts of the mines. The question if any, and, if so, what preventive measures could be legislatively enforced is still under consideration. Medical opinion is not agreed as to specific preventives, such as respirators, of which no completely satisfactory type has yet been discovered. The Chamber of Mines has offered a prize for invention of best means of preventing dust in mines, and it is hoped that competition may throw further light on the subject. The medical officer of health reports that numbers of deaths from miners' phthisis among the whole population of Witwatersrand, both white and coloured, was eight last month.

Regulations For Landing Of British Subjects At Beira

To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if British subjects are prohibited landing at Beira on the way to British Central Africa or Rhodesia unless possessed of a certain amount of capital; and, if so, if there is any intention to apply a similar Ordinance for the Transvaal. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lytlelton.) The regulations dated 17th November 1902, as to passengers disembarking at Beira, is as follows:—Article 1. Passengers desiring to disembark at Beira will receive permission to do so on complying with one or other of the following conditions. (a) A declaration in writing that their destination is Rhodesia, and, if it be judged desirable, a deposit with the police authorities of a sum of £10, for which a receipt will be given, (b) Proof that the applicant possesses money or its equivalent to the value of £50, and delivery to the police authorities of a sum of £20, as a deposit, for which a receipt will be given. Individuals from whom this receipt will be required will undertake to withdraw from Beira by the first means after the period of eight days shall have elapsed if they cannot show that they have obtained employment or other means of subsistence, (c) Proof to the police authorities that they have immediate employment or other means of subsistence. The deposits to which this article refers will be placed in the hands of the police official on board, who will transfer them to the proper authority. Article 2. The Commissioner of Police may employ the deposits to which Sections (a) and (b) of Article 1 refer in providing subsistence for depositors should they find themselves without means of support and also passage by rail to Rhodesia, or by sea to another port. The deposits to which Sections (a) and (b) of Article 1 refer, or balances thereout of, after the expenses mentioned in the article shall have been paid, will be delivered to the depositor in Beira, or sent to his order at such place as the Commissioner of Police shall determine. Article 3. The Commissioner of Police may effect the expulsion of all persons who may land without observing the regulations laid down in Article 1, should they not immediately submit to them. The Natal and Cape Immigration Restriction Acts prohibit the immigration of any person a pauper or not in possession of visible means of support or likely to become a public charge. A similar Ordinance has bean suggested for the Transvaal.

Indentured East Indian Immigrants In The Colonies

To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give approximately the number of indentured East Indian immigrants in the Colonies, and where such labourer is chiefly employed. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The numbers according to the latest information available are—Natal, 25,636, British Guiana, 14,609; Mauritius, 10,083; Fiji, 8,225; Trinidad, 7,678; Jamaica, 1,168. They are employed chiefly on sugar plantations, but also on cocoa plantations (in Trinidad), on fruit farms (Jamaica), and in coal mines (in Natal).

Government Sanction Of Transvaal Labour Ordinance

To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government have now sanctioned the Ordinance respecting the introduction of indentured Chinese labour into the Transvaal. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Lyttelton.) The Ordinance has been sanctioned.

Care Of Imbeciles—Suggested Royal Commission

To ask the First Lord of the Treasury, in view of the petition presented to His Majesty's Government by various persons and authorities interested in the case of imbeciles and defective or feeble-minded persons that a Royal Commission should be appointed to consider the provisions now made for these classes, whether he is now in a position to reply to the further letter presented to him in July, 1903, in support of the petition by Members of Parliament on both sides of the House. (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) I understand that this question has for some time past been engaging the attention of both the Home Office and the Local Government Board. These Departments have not yet decided upon the best form of inquiry to meet the particular problems referred to, and it may be necessary to extend the scope of the reference. A decision will be reached, I hope, at an early date, which will be communicated to the hon. Member if he will put down another Question in a week's time.

Re-Introduction Of Bills Of Exchange Amendment Bill

To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if it is the intention of the Government to reintroduce the Bills of Exchange Amendment Bill of last year. (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The answer is in the affirmative.

Report Of Committee On Parliamentary Grant For Meteorology

To ask the First Lord of the Treasury when the Committee appointed in 1902 to inquire into the administration of the Parliamentary Grant for Meteorology may be expected to report. (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) It is hoped that the Committee will report very shortly.

Questions In The House

War Office Employees And The Ventilation Of Grievances

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of granting to the various sections of organised Government workers employed under the War Department the same facilities of approach to the Secretary of State for War as were granted to the postal employees by the Duke of Norfolk when Postmaster-General.

Government employees have full freedom of access to their superiors, and are able to bring to their notice any points they desire to have considered. I can give no general undertaking to receive deputations, but if any special circumstances make me consider it desirable, I shall be prepared to consider such applications for a deputation received through the regular channels.

Duke Of York's School

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that at the Duke of York's School 560 boys from nine to sixteen years of age are taught by one head and five assistant masters, who have also to train forty Army schoolmasters in the training college, and that in spare time one of the masters has to keep the magic lanterns of the Army in order, he will consider the advisability of increasing the teaching staff.

The question of the physical, moral, and intellectual training of the Duke of York's School is now being considered by a Committee, and their attention has been directed to the question of the strength of the teaching staff.

Director Of Army Contracts

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the statement of the War Office Reconstitution Committee, that a Director and an Assistant Director of Contracts have been appointed, neither of whom had previously any experience in buying, or any knowledge of the special stores to be bought, is a correct statement of fact; if so, who is responsible for such appointments; and will these appointments be continued.

The statement referred to in the Question appears to me to be a somewhat incorrect representation of the facts. The officials referred to have not previously served in the contract branch, but the present Director of Contracts had several years experience in charge of the Army Clothing Department, Pimlico. No official could be selected who could have a complete knowledge of all the various stores dealt with by the contract branch. I am responsible for the promotion of these gentlemen.

The statement in the Question is a quotation from a War Office document.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Lords of the Treasury have sanctioned the appointment of Mr. Henry de la Bere as Director of Army Contracts; whether the announcement of that gentleman's appointment was made by the Secretary of State for War with the concurrence of their Lordships; and, whether Mr. Alfred Major had resigned the office of Director of Contracts when the appointment of Mr. de la Bere was officially announced.

The Lords of the Treasury sanctioned the appointment of Mr. Henry de la Bere as Director of Army Contracts on the retirement of Mr. Major, which took place on the 11th March. Mr. de la Bere has officiated as Director of Contracts, without additional pay, since Mr. Major proceeded on sick leave pending retirement.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last paragraph of the Question.

Mr. de la Bere was not appointed; he was asked to undertake the duties pending the resignation.

Was not his appointment announced officially in The Times before the resignation took place.

Admiralty Grants To Scottish Episcopal Churches

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state how much of the £12,278, granted by the Admiralty in aid of the Church of England and the Scottish Episcopal Church during the last five years, has been granted to these Churches respectively; how many Scottish Episcopal churches have received grants; and where these churches are situated.

The sum of £12,278 18s. 9d. referred to is made up as follows:— Church of England, £6,588 2s. 11d.; Church of Ireland, £5,472 1s. 5d.; Scotch Episcopal Church, £218 14s. 5d.; Total, £12,278 18s. 9d. Grants have been made to twenty-two Scotch Episcopal churches, including the following:—Banff, Fraserburgh, Greenock, Kirkwall, Lerwick, Peterhead, St. Andrews, Wick.

Rosyth

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Department are being called upon to make any payments for access to land at Rosyth, in addition to the £135,000 already paid; and, if so, will he say what these claims amount to.

The Admiralty have not been called upon to make any such payments for access. In order to make a railway connection with the North British Railway Company's line it has been necessary to acquire an area of glebe land from the Minister of Inver-keithing. This had to be purchased on a valuation of the Court of Teinds which fixed the price at £4,800. The area is about 6¼ acres.

Admiralty Grants To Nonconformist Bodies

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state how much of the £11,316 3s., granted by the Admiralty to Nonconformist bodies during the last five years, was received by the Baptist, Congregational, Presbyterian, and Wesleyan communities respectively.

The sum in question was made up as follows:— Wesleyans, £7,170 9s. 4d.; Presbyterians, £3,751 11s. 2d.; Baptists and Congre-gationalists, £394 2s. 6d. The grants to the two latter bodies cannot be differentiated, as they act in unison and have; appointed a joint committee to confer with the Admiralty in respect of these grants.

Coaling War Ships At Sea

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has any official reports upon the experiments which have been with the apparatus for coaling His Majesty's ships when at sea; and, if so, will he state their purport, and can he state if this system of coaling has been adopted by any other Powers.

Official reports have been received which show that further experiments are desirable, and these are now in progress. Apparatus for this system of coaling is under trial by several foreign Governments.

Australian Labour Laws

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that, by a recent Act of the Australian Legislature, British workers landing in Australia under contracts of labour are treated as criminals and subjected to imprisonment and deportation; and whether, having regard to the burden imposed upon British taxpayers by the cost of Imperial defence, he will bring in a Bill to secure to all classes in this country the right of entry into all parts of His Majesty's dominions.

The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative, but as has already been pointed out in answer to the hon. Member's Question of the 11th of February,† though the Act-has been in force for more than two years, not a single case of any British workman being treated as described has occurred. In regard to the second part

See (4) Debates, cxxix., 1025.
of the Question, the hon. Member does not appear to be aware that Australia provides entirely for its own military defence and further contributes, with New Zealand, half the estimated cost of the Naval Squadron in Australasian waters. His Majesty's Government have no intention of proposing such legislation.

Chinese Labourers And Rights Of Property In The Transvaal

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, if a Chinese labourer acquires under a contract entered into with a British subject for good and valuable consideration any house, land, building, or other property in breach of the provisions of the 14th Section of the Transvaal Ordinance, the contract will be void in law, and, if so, to whom will the property belong; or whether, subject to the parties to the contract undergoing such punishment as may be inflicted under the Ordinance, the labourer will be entitled to retain his property.

The contract is one prohibited by law and is void. The property does not pass under it and remains in the hands of those who purported to dispose of it.

Would the answer of the right hon. Gentleman be the same if the conveyance were taken in the name of a child born in South Africa of Chinese parents?

Native Labour In The Transvaal Mines

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give the latest information received from the Transvaal Chamber of Mines, Johannesburg, in reference to the number of natives distributed to the mines during February by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association; whether he will state what was the increase in the native supply of labour during February last, and what was the total number of natives employed in the mines at the end of the month referred to; and whether these facts are receiving the consideration of the Government in connection with their final decision as to the Transvaal Chinese Labour Ordinance.

A loss of seventy-four in January was converted into a gain of 1,199 in February. The natives distributed in February were 6,263 of whom 223 were allotted to the railways. The total number employed was 69,966. The returns continue to engage my attention, but these fluctuations do not appear to me to affect the situation appreciably.

Jameson Raid

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the statement in the despatch of the late Colonial Secretary to Lord Rosmead, dated 10th April, 1897, that the British South Africa Company would have to make compensation for the Jameson Raid, still holds good; and, if not, what explanation is there (if any) for this change of policy.

I can only repeat the answer given by my predecessor on 1st April. 1901,† that His Majesty's Government have been advised that there is no legal liability on the part of the British South Africa Company to pay to His Majesty's Government, as representing the Government of the late South African Republic, any compensation in respect of the Raid, and that the right to exact reparation for any damage has not passed to His Majesty's Government.

Canada And The Metric System

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he has now received the reply of Canada as to the adoption of the metric system; and whether he will when received, lay it upon the Table of the House.

† See (4) Debates, xeii., 329.

The reply to the first part of the Question is in the negative. The despatch, when received, will be printed and laid immediately.

Australia And Preferential Tariffs

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any assurance has been received from the Governments of the Australian Commonwealth and New Zealand that under certain circumstances their tariff against imported British manufactured goods will be removed.

There has been no correspondence with the Governments of Australia and New Zealand on this subject since the Conference of 1902, and no such assurance has been received.

Post Office And The Cash On Delivery System

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he has received representations from local authorities and others that the introduction of a cash-on-delivery post by the postal authorities would inflict injury on traders and shopkeepers in country towns and villages; and, if so, whether he can now give an assurance that it is not intended to proceed further with the scheme.

I have nothing to add at present to the reply which I gave on 22nd February to a Question asked on this subject by the hon. Member for North Tyrone.†

Post Office Telephones

On behalf of the hon. Member for South Armagh, I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he intends to continue the installation of the central battery system in connection with Post Office telephones; and whether he is aware that this system has not found favour in other countries on account of the number of relays required and other causes of expense.

† See (4) Debates, cxxx., 564.

It is intended to continue the use of the central battery system for Post Office Telephone Exchanges in London. It has given excellent results, being both efficient and economical. I am not aware that this system has not found favour in other countries. On the contrary, I am informed that it is generally adopted for large Exchanges in America, and it is either already in use, or about to be introduced, at important Exchanges in several European States.

Sugar Convention And Artificially Sweetened Milk

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if preserved milk artificially sweetened is within the scope of the Sugar Convention; whether Switzerland or any other Continental country now grants a bounty on exported sugar; and whether preserved milk coming from any such country will be now excluded from our imports.

Preserved milk if it contains "in a notable proportion artificially incorporated sugar" is among the articles assimilated to sugar for the purpose of Article 1 of the Sugar Convention. Russia and Denmark are the only Continental countries which have so far been found by the Permanent Commission to grant export bounties on sugar. No preserved milk appears to be imported into the United Kingdom from either of these countries.

Sugar Convention—Effect On Sugar Prices

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade if he will state what was the price of sugar before the ratification of the Sugar Convention, and what it is at the present time.

The average prices at which raw and refined sugar respectively were imported into the United Kingdom in May, 1902, and February, 1904, computed from the declared quantities and values of the imports, were as follows: The price per cwt. of raw sugar in May, 1902, was 8s. 2¼d. and of refined sugar, 10s. 10¼d. The corresponding prices in February, 1904, were 8s. 9¾d. and 11s. 0¾d.

Public Vaccination

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state how the amount of fees paid to public vaccinators by the various boards of guardians since the passing of the Act of 1898 compares with the cost of vaccinations prior to the passing of that Act.

According to the information I have obtained, the total number of vaccinations and revaccinations performed by public vaccinators in the four years ended, at Lady Day, 1899, was 1,370,897, and the average amount of the fee per case was 2s. 2d. In the four years ended at Lady Day, 1903, the total numbers of vaccinations and re-vaccinations performed by public vaccinators had risen to 3,197,192, and the average amount of fee per case was rather less than 5s. 10d. The substitution of the system of domiciliary vaccination under the Vaccination Act. 1898, for vaccination at fixed stations and the requirement that the operation shall be performed with antiseptic dressings have greatly increased the demand upon the time of the public vaccinators, and higher fees have consequently to be paid. A Departmental Committee is, however, at present inquiring into the subject of vaccination fees.

Disease Caused By Milk At Finchley

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether hi; attention has been called to the report of the Medical Officer of Health for Finchley on a recent outbreak of disease due to milk, similar to that which occurred in Woking last autumn; and whether he intends to introduce legislation this session with a view to preventing such occurrences in the future.

I have seen the report referred to in the Question. I have taken note of the suggestion for legislation, but I cannot promise to make prosposals on the subject during the present session.

Frozen Meat And Cancer

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has any official information showing that the stoppage of decomposition in frozen and chilled meat during transit from abroad to the United Kingdom, has any injurious effect upon those eating such food, and especially whether it contributes to the increasing number of cases of cancer; and, if not, will he direct inquiry to be made into the matter.

I have no information to the effect suggested by the hon. Member. Whether the eating of frozen meat has any influence in producing cases of cancer is a question to which the attention of the Cancer Research Committee, now sitting, might, I think, properly be drawn. I have had the matter under my attention, and will con-

Local Taxation Account—Return, in the following form:—
Country.Number of gallons at proof strength of tested spirits cleared for Home consumption year ended 30th day of September, 1903Number of liguid gallons of untested spirits cleared for Home consumption year ended 30th day of September, 1903Net amount already paid over, or to be paid over, to local authorities on account of Spirit Duties year ended 30th day of September, 1903Number of barrels of beer brewed year ended 30th day of September, 1903Number of barrels exported, destroyed, &c., on which the Duty has been remitted.Net number of barrels liable for Local Taxation Account.Net amount paid over, or to be paid over, to local authorities on account of Beer Duty year ended 30th day of September, 1903.Total amount paid over, or to be paid over, to local authorities on account of Duty on spirits and beer year ended 30th day of September, 1903.
£s.d.£s.d.£s.d.
England
Ireland
Scotland

Coal Commission

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Second Report of the Coal Commission will be available to the public; will the accompanying evidence

sider what steps should be taken with regard to it.

Local Taxation Account

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will grant the Return relating to the Local Taxation Account which appears on the Notice Paper to-day.

I shall be ready to give the Return, subject to some small modifications upon which I will communicate with the hon. Member.

The Return referred to is as follows:—

include the evidence taken up to the present time; and will the Report contain any expression of opinion by the Commissioners as to the effect of the imposition of the coal duty on the trade.

I hope that the Second Report of the Coal Commission will be printed this week. It will be a merely formal Report submitting evidence, on the lines of the first Report. It will contain evidence given before the Commission up to the 21st of October last. The Report will not deal with the coal tax, as no evidence on the tax had been taken before October last.

Customs Watchers

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has received through the Board of Customs a memorial from the Customs watchers; and, if so, when a reply may be expected.

Electric Lamp Brackets In The Mall

I beg to ask the lion. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works whether the electric lamp brackets which have been erected along the Mall and in front of Buckingham Palace are intended to be permanent; by whom they have been put up; and who is responsible for their design.

The answer to the first paragraph is in the negative. The lamp brackets have been put up temporarily by the Office of Works. The Office of Works is not aware of the name of the designer. The brackets are trade articles kept in stock.

Arising out of the answer of the noble Lord can he arrange meanwhile to have the brackets painted a less hideous and aggressive colour?

Will the removal of the brackets involve the pulling up of the road again?

[No answer was returned.]

Girls' Public Day School Company, Limited

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he is aware that, from the report of the Girls' Public Day School Company, Limited, a sum of £2,826 was paid to that company last year by the Board of Education towards the £5,131 paid by that company to its shareholders as a dividend; whether he is aware that the fees paid by each pupil in these schools exceeded £15 a year; and whether such grants from taxation in aid of private enterprise are to be continued; and, if so, whether these grants are to be extended to all other private venture schools providing education to the middle and richer classes of the community.

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION
(Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University)

As I announced in the House last year the clause in the Directory, under which the institution referred to and other similar institutions are eligible for grants, will be withdrawn after 31st July next. If the company should propose such an alteration in their arrangements as would bring them into conformity with the regulations of the Board as thus modified, the Board will be prepared to consider whether any temporary continuance of existing grants would be justifiable in order to allow time for the completion of these alterations.

Will similar arrangements be made with other companies having private venture schools?

London County Council Education Committee

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether the draft scheme for the constitution of an education committee submitted by the London County Council has yet been sanctioned by the Board of Education; and, if not, whether any objection to the scheme has been forwarded to the London County Council; and, if so, whether he will state the nature of such objection.

The Board will communicate their decision to the London County Council in time for the meeting of the Council to-morrow. Under these circumstances it would not be proper that I should inform the hon. Member of the decision of the Board.

Education Act—Provision Of New Denominational Schools

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will state the number of cases now pending in which the approval of the Board is sought for the erection or enlargement of a denominational school in lieu of a provided school under the Education Act, 1902; whether he will state in how many of such cases the applications are from the Roman Catholic and Church of England denominations respectively; and how many local inquiries have been held, or are pending, relative to such cases.

I am not aware of any cases at all in which a denominational school has been erected, or enlarged, in lieu of an existing provided or council school. The only cases of substitution are of council or provided schools for denominational schools. Fifty-four such substitutions have been completed, and seventy-six others are in process of completion. The Question in the second paragraph does not arise. In answer to the third paragraph there have been three public inquiries as to the provision of new denominational schools, two of which have been refused; the report of the third has not yet been received. Two other inquiries are pending.

Denbighshire And The Education Act

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether any decision has been arrived at in regard to the representations and objections addressed to the Board by the Parish Council and inhabitants interested in the Glyn Traian Pontfadog National School, Denbighshire, relative to the draft Final Order in the case of such school; and whether the Board will order a local inquiry to be held before finally settling any scheme for the appointment of foundation managers for such school.

The application on which the draft Final Order was prepared only mentioned one trust deed, and the Board had no knowledge of any other. It has now been ascertained that there are two trust deeds for the school one of a very strict Church of England character, the other of a more liberal character. The observations which persons in the locality have submitted to the Board are now under consideration, and the Board will direct a local inquiry if they are satisfied that it is necessary or desirable.

Education In Denbighshire—The "Appointed Day"

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will state the grounds upon which the Board of Education has issued a notification to the Clerk of the Denbighshire County Council further postponing the appointed day, under the Education Act, 1902, from 1st April to 1st June, in Denbighshire.

The Board have received official information that the Denbighshire County Council have passed a resolution "not to apply any rate for the support of voluntary schools within the county unless such schools are handed over unconditionally to the education authority for the area within the jurisdiction of the Denbighshire County Council." The Board have postponed the appointed day on account of this declared intention of the county council not to carry out the Act in its integrity.

Educational Applications By Local Authorities

On behalf of the hon. Member for the Morley Division of Yorkshire, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Board of Education how many applications have been made by the new education authorities for permission to build new schools or enlarge old ones; how many have been granted; and how many similar applications have been made and granted for non-provided schools.

So far as the; information at the disposal of the Board shows, notices have been published for the provision of 114 new council schools and the enlargement of nineteen others; for the provision of twenty-two new Church schools and the enlargement of ten others; for the provision of sixteen Roman Catholic schools and the enlargement of three others; and for the provision of five other schools (denomination uncertain). Of these 157 cases, six council schools have been put on the Annual Grant List, two Church schools, and no Roman Catholic Schools. Many of the other cases are still in course of publication, some are still under consideration, and three (one Church and two Roman Catholic schools) have been refused. No case of enlargement has yet been passed.

South Uist Crofters

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if the promised inquiry into the condition of the crofters and cottars in South Uist has taken place; and, if so, when the Report may be expected to be issued.

The promised inquiry has taken place.] The Report is in course of preparation, and is being pushed forward as rapidly as possible, but the date when it will be ready for issue cannot as yet be stated.

Education Grants

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer from what dates, respectively, did the additional grant for education in England and Wales, consequent on the Education Act of 1902, and the Irish Development Fund Grant, begin to accrue, and what was the amount paid on account of each grant in the financial year 1903–4.

The date from which the aid grant under the Education Act, 1902, begins to accrue varies in different localities. The amount to be paid in respect of the grant in the present financial year cannot yet be stated. The Ireland Development Grant Act provided that two-thirds of the full annual grant should be paid in the current year.

The hon. Gentleman has not answered the Question at all. What was paid on account of the grant? What was done with the money said to have been paid on account?

I have said it was provided that two-thirds should be paid in the current year. I can add nothing to that.

It is not an answer to the Question. I will put it to the hon. Member's superior officer when he comes. Later on Mr. CLANCY asked for an answer from Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, but, it being Three o'clock, the Speaker directed that it was too late, and suggested that the Question might be put down again.

Castlerea District Council And The Labourers Act

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the scheme under the Labourers Acts promoted by the Castlerea Rural District Council is delayed by reason of the fact that no arbitrator has been appointed by the Local Government Board; whether he will call upon the latter body immediately to make such appointment; and whether he will state when this scheme was commenced.

The council did not make application for the appointment of an arbitrator until the 20th February. The Board's Order appointing him was made on Monday last. The improvement scheme was made by the council in November, 1901.

Land Purchase At Castlerea

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether one of the Estates Commissioners has recently visited certain estates in the Castlerea district of the county Roscommon; and, if so, can he state with what, if any, result.

Head Constable Gerity, Royal Irish Constabulary

I beg to ask the Chief J Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of I Ireland whether he is aware that! Head Constable Gerity, of Dungannon, county Tyrone, recently made a report against a sergeant under his command for breach of discipline, the result of which report was the transfer of the sergeant by order of the Inspector-General; and can he explain why the sergeant's transfer has been cancelled, and by whose instructions.

The sergeant appealed to the Inspector-General against his proposed transfer on the ground that he intended shortly to retire on pension. The Inspector-General thereupon cancelled the transfer.

Tipperary Land Commission Appeals

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, as there are 166 appeals to the Head Land Commission from the county of Tipperary listed, and as a sitting of the Commission has not been held for years in that county he will have steps taken to have those appeals heard without further delay.

Appeals from South Tipperary were listed for hearing at Waterford on the 22nd instant, but owing to local objections these cases have been withdrawn from the list. It has not been possible yet to arrange a sitting for the disposal of the South Tipperary cases.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these cases have been listed over a year?

Yes, because of the inconvenience of taking so large a number of Tipperary cases to that town.

Irish Model Schools

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of Mr. Dale's report on the model schools in Ireland, in which it is shown that the cost of these schools is not only higher than that of the ordinary National Irish schools or Convent schools, which only cost the State £1 5s. to £2 10s. per head, but is actually above the cost incurred by the wealthiest English school boards, and that they have failed in one of their chief objects, namely, the united education of children of all creeds, he purposes to continue the grant to those model schools in Ireland.

I replied on Thursday last to a Question on this subject by the hon. and learned Member for North Louth.†

Butson Estate, County Galway

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on the Butson Estate, county Galway, which is about to be sold in the Land Judge's Court, there is a large tract of grazing land subject only to a temporary Court lease, while the general body of the tenants have only small impoverished holdings, many of which are constantly inundated by floods; whether he will take steps for the enlargement of the cottier tenancies, and will the provisions of the Purchase Act which prevent advances of public money to new tenants having no real connection with the estate be strictly enforced so as to prevent the rich grass lands, which it is the policy of the Act to redistribute amongst the smaller tenants, being sold to outsiders.

The grazing farm referred to was let before the passing of

†See page 732.
the Act of 1903, and a collateral agreement for purchase was entered into by the Court with the lessee. The Land Judge cannot disturb this agreement; but there are other grazing lands on the estate which it is proposed to distribute among the tenants should the negotiations at present in progress be successful.

Will the right hon. Gentleman direct the Estates Com- I missioners to purchase this estate in view of the fact that the tenants are prepared to pay £1,000 more than is provided under the agreement.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Judge made a statement that—

No, but I understand that the Judge sanctioned the collateral agreement.

rose to put a further Question but Mr. SPEAKER said notice must be given.

Housing Of The Working Classes In Irish Towns

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when he proposes to introduce the measure dealing with l the housing of the working classes in towns in Ireland promised last session.

I see no prospect of introducing the measure promised last session for dealing with the housing of the working classes in towns in Ireland till after Easter.

Yes, I hope to bring it in in the course of the session but other Bills must first be taken.

Irish Development Grant

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware of the desire that a considerable portion at least of the Irish Development Grant Fund should be devoted to primary education in Ireland; and whether he proposes to consider this desire in framing his Estimate.

Yes, Sir, I am aware of that desire. It was not, however, possible to meet it in this Estimate prior to a consideration of Mr. Dale's report.

Bodyke Licensing

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state what is the delay in granting to Mrs. Healy, of Bodyke, county Clare, the licence which has been sanctioned for some time; and whether the Inland Revenue Authorities in Ireland will hi asked for an explanation.

A question of law was involved in the consideration of this case, and by an unfortunate omission the opinion of the Irish Law Officers was not communicated to the Board of Inland Revenue. The omission has now been remedied. The Inland Revenue Authorities are in no way to blame.

Irish Salmon Fisheries

I beg to; ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will explain why the date of the commencement of the close season for salmon is not the same along the east coast of Ireland; whether complaints have been made to the Irish Department of injury done to the fishing industry, both by the conservators of the Boyne and the fishermen by the lateness of the date of closing in one section of the coast north of the mouth of the Boyne; and what steps, if any, are to be taken to arrange that the season closes on the same date on both sections, north and south of the Boyne.

The dates vary in different localities according to the requirements of each. The netting season for salmon is the same north and south of the mouth of the Boyne, but it differs from the netting seasons in the adjoining Dundalk district. Legislation would be necessary to enable the Department to deal satisfactorily with the operation of the close seasons.

Athenry Case

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the fact that at the hearing of the charge, at Athenry petty sessions, against Timothy Hansberry, for unlawfully discharging firearms on the public road, Sergeant Monihan swore that he had received several complaints that shots were fired there during the night, and that the police had to send special patrols to try and find out who was firing the shots; and whether, in view of this statement, he will state on what dates such complaints were made, and reported to the proper officials; and, if no such complaints were made, will he order a prosecution against Sergeant Monihan for perjury.

The facts are correctly stated in the Question. I stated on Wednesday last† that no such complaints had been made to the police. The statement was based on the authority of a report made by the district inspector, which I now learn was erroneous. The Inspector-General has conveyed to that officer an expression of strong disapproval his conduct.

Marlborough Street Training School

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what action he proposes to take in connection with the Marlborough Street Training School in order to carry out the promise that new buildings would be provided; and will be see that funds will be provided for this purpose in next year's Estimates.

†See page 583.

Provision has been made in the Estimates for an instilment of a grant of £50,000 for new buildings.

Limerick Cottage Scheme Loans

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state how much of the shilling in the pound rate is required by the different Poor Law unions in the county of Limerick for the repayment of loans sanctioned in connection with the building of cottages under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts in the said unions.

Information on this point will be found in a Return (No. 198) laid on the Table of the House last session.

Fair Rents In Kildare

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on the estates of Mr. Bruce Pryce and Lord Go ugh have served originating notices to have fair rents fixed by the County Court Judge of Kildare, which in the ordinary course would be heard at the April quarter sessions, and that these landlords have moved to have the cases transferred for hearing to the Land Commission; and, if so, can he say what delay, if any, this procedure will involve in the decision of these cases, and whether it is possible to have them listed for hearing before the next sitting of the Sub-Commission for Athy Union.

It will not be possible to include these cases in the list already issued, which will be heard in May next, unless a special Order of the Court to that effect is obtained. Application for such an Order may be made to the Judicial Commissioner sitting at the Fourt Courts. Any delay in the hearing of the cases will not, however, be prejudicial to the parties, as the judicial rents, when fixed, will run from the gale day next following the date of the lodgment of the applications in the office of the Clerk of the Peace.

Owenmore River Drainage

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the inspection of the Owenmore river, in county Sligo, recently ordered by the Department of Agriculture, has yet taken place; and, if so, will he state the nature of the Inspector's report, and say whether it recommends any scheme for the drainage of that river.

The inspection has been carried out, and the report of the Inspector will be made to the Department in the course of a few days.

Irish Evicted Tenants

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in cases where occupiers of evicted farms have purchased their holdings through the Land Commission and are now willing to surrender them for a fair consideration, the Estates Commissioners will be prepared to enter into negotiations for their redemption in order to give effect to the intentions of the Land Act, 1903, to reinstate the tenants or their representatives who had been evicted.

It appears to the Estates Commissioners that the Land Commission have no power to give or advance money to redeem the outstanding instalments of a purchase annuity.

Enniskillen Fair Green

I beg to ask the Chief; Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the condition in which Enniskillen Fair Green is kept by the proprietor, who collects tolls therefrom; and J whether he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to oblige owners of such fair greens to erect watering troughs for cattle exhibited at the fair, and for the keeping in proper condition of the surface of the fair greens.

No complaints have been made to the new Department respecting the condition of the Fair Green at Enniskillen. The local authority under the Diseases of Animals Act has power to make regulations for the cleansing of the market place. I am making further inquiry in the matter.

Motor Traffic In County Fermanagh

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the districts in county Fermanagh which have been inspected with a view to the establishment of motor traffic for the purpose of conveying farm produce, and if no districts have yet been viewed in county Fermanagh will he ask that an inspection be made.

No districts in Fermanagh were inspected, I believe, and no advantage would be gained by making an inspection now.

Macroom Labourers Cottage Scheme

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, previous to the recent inquiry into a labourers, cottage scheme in the Macroom Union, the district councillors were officially notified that the inquiry was to be held; and whether, seeing that Messrs. Arthur O'Leary and John Moynihan, representatives for the Ballingeary electoral division, received no intimation of any kind, will he state who was responsible for this omission.

An official notification of the date of the inquiry was communicated in the ordinary manner to the district council by the Local Government Board. Notices to the same effect were also published in the local newspapers and placarded throughout the district. It is not the business of the Board, or its inspector, to notify the individual members of the council. This is a matter for which arrangements, if considered necessary, should have been made by the council itself.

Is it the duty of the clerk of the district council to make the notification?

Donegal County Council And The Marine Works Acts

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a copy of a resolution passed by the Donegal County Council expressing dissatisfaction with the manner in which the allocation of money to the county under the Marine Works Act was made, complaining that the representations sent by the council to the Chief Secretary had many schemes from the county generally, but that large areas of the county did not receive any benefit whatever under the provisions of the Act since the scheme of allocation was practically settled before consultation with them, and urging on the Chief Secretary the reconsideration of the schemes already virtually or actually approved, and offering to submit to the Chief Secretary the works which in their opinion would, with the money in hand, be, if undertaken, most conducive to the public interests; and what reply has been sent to the Donegal County Council; and what steps, if any, will be taken on the lines indicated by this resolution.

The allocation of funds under the Act provides for an expenditure of £15,000 on works in Donegal, These were selected according to their relative importance and after consultation with representatives of the county council. The allocation cannot now be reopened. The decision of the county council to defer further action in respect of certain works is much to be regretted; a continuance of delay in completing the necessary steps may lead to a postponement of the works in question for a year, or even longer.

Telegraph Facilities For Garrison (County Fermanagh)

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if his attention has been called to the necessity of having a postal telegraph office established in the village of Garrison, county Fermanagh, where a monthly fair is held and a creamery erected; and, if so, will he remedy this public want.

The question of establishing a telegraph office in Garrison, county Fermanagh, was considered in 1901, and an offer was made to establish the office under guarantee, but no reply was received. The business would not be sufficient to enable me to open an office without guarantee.

Riverstown (Sligo) Postal Arrangements

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether a memorial signed by the inhabitants of Riverstown, county Sligo, calling for a mid-day delivery of mails in that town has been received by him; whether he is aware that the central distributing station of Ballymote is only seven miles distant, and that letters arriving there by the mid-day limited mail train are not delivered in Riverstown until the following day; and whether, in view of these facts, arrangements will be made by which the postal facilities asked for can be granted.

I have not yet received a memorial asking for a midday delivery of letters at Riverstown, county Sligo, but inquiry shall be made on the subject and an answer sent to the hon. Member.

Egg Frauds Against Irish Producers

I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether his attention has been directed to frauds committed by egg merchants in Lancashire and other parts of Britain in packing Austrian and other foreign eggs in Irish egg boxes and selling them as Irish; and, if so, whether he is prepared to take steps to safeguard the interests of the Irish producer.

No representations have been received by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries on this subject. If the hon. Member will communicate to me any detailed information which he may possess I will arrange for inquiries to be made.

Irish Land Stock

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland when it is proposed to issue stock under the Irish Land Act of 1903.

The issue of Government 2¾ per cent. stock created by the Irish Land Act of 1903 will be made at the first favourable opportunity, which it is hoped may occur very shortly.

Confidential Cabinet Memoranda

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will now consider the desirability of making public the document relating to a programme which included preferential tariffs and taxation of food, and which was submitted to the Cabinet in August last, when the document, since published, and entitled Economic Notes on Insular Free Trade, was also under consideration.

At the same time may I ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the fact that reference has been made and apparent misunderstanding arisen as to the purport of a statement circulated to Cabinet Ministers by the Prime Minister last autumn, he will lay that expression of his views upon the Table of the House.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)

I do not think any misconception with regard to this Paper has been fallen into by any Gentleman who has read it, and if such misconception exists it can, I am convinced, be completely removed by a second perusal. But with regard to the propriety of publishing it, I would remind the House—those Members who have sat in Cabinets will not require to be reminded—that Cabinet memoranda are as much part of ordinary Cabinet proceedings as are the conversations round the Table. They are, in fact, fragments of that conversation, and are, indeed, of a private character. I do not think that, in the interests of Cabinet government, I could on this occasion, or on any other, assent to the publication of what are part of our confidential intercommunications.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that one of his colleagues in another place has referred specifically to this document?

No colleague of mine has communicated the Paper to the public. If it was referred to it was as I have referred to it, being compelled to do so by the fact of the matter being touched upon by a noble friend.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are several precedents for the production of Cabinet memoranda when those Cabinet memoranda have become the subject of controversial discussion in both Houses or in either House of Parliament.

It is new to me if there are. Perhaps the hon. Member will give me the reference.

Chinese Labour In Rhodesia

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the House will be afforded an opportunity of discussing the terms of any Ordinance for the introduction of indentured Chinese labour into Rhodesia before sanction is given to such Ordinance.

I cannot do better than refer the hon. Gentleman to an answer which I gave to a precisely similar Question put to me on the 8th of this month,† in which I pointed out that the principles underlying the introduction of Chinese labour in Rhodesia were identical with those which underlay the introduction of Chinese labour in the Transvaal, and I do not see why there should be two debates on what is in fact a single subject.

Is the First Lord aware that the Colonial Secretary has

†See page 456.
stated here that the Ordinance for Rhodesia is different.

I have not got present to my mind the answer of my right hon. friend to which the hon. Member refers, but I do not think he ever suggested that the principles underlying the Ordinances were different in the two cases.

The Polling Of Absentee Voters

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will say whether, and, if so, when it is proposed to set up a Committee for the purpose of inquiring into and reporting on the best method of permitting persons who are necessarily absent from their homes between the nomination of candidates and the day of poll to record their votes.

I understand that in the course of the debate on Friday my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board expressed willingness to refer the subject alluded to in the Question to a Select Committee, and that the offer was not accepted. I do not know, therefore, why the hon. Member should press the matter further. However, I am of opinion that possibly some inquiry may be desirable, though the Government have not decided what form the inquiry should take as likely to lead to useful result, and I must defer answering the Question.

Duration Of Speeches

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will favourably consider a scheme for limiting the length of speeches on the days set apart for private Members during the remainder of the present session.

The House knows my opinion on the subject, and I have often expressed my sympathy with my hon. and gallant friend the Member for the Chelmsford Division of Essex, whom I do not see in his place. If a Resolution be moved on a private Member's night suggesting that on those nights speeches should be limited, I will take care that no influence of mine is thrown into the opposite scale, and the House will be left to decide this delicate question for itself.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the longest speeches are made by Cabinet Ministers and the Member for Peckham.

I do not deny that even I may have been a sinner in that respect—

I think in a long and varied Parliamentary experience I have heard lengthy speeches even from other quarters of the House.

Business Of The House

What will be the business to-morrow morning and for the rest of the week?

To-morrow morning's sitting will be devoted to the remaining Supplementary Estimates, Wednesday to the Report of the Vote on Account, and Thursday to the Report of Army and Navy Votes.

The Transvaal Labour Ordinance

I wish to ask a Question of which I have given private notice to the First Lord of the Treasury, viz.:—WHat is the exact meaning of the announcement that the King has been advised not to disallow the Labour Ordinance, but that it will not yet be brought into operation; when the restriction will be removed; and when the House will be placed in full possession of the regulations under which the Ordinance will be exercised.

The form of the statement of which the right hon. Gentleman requires an explanation is one which is practically prescribed by statute in this matter. If His Majesty does not disallow an Ordinance, that Ordinance in the natural course becomes law in the colony. The next Question deals with what is not a question of law, but a question of fact. Certain officials have to be appointed and certain arrangements have to be come to with the Chinese Government before the importation of Chinese labour can become an actuality, but so far as the action of the Government is concerned the Ordinance has been allowed.

The right hon. Gentleman has not said when he expects that Parliament will be informed on the matter.

My right hon. friend (the Colonial Secretary) informs me that the regulations which will carry out the pledges he has given will be laid before the House very shortly, but I cannot give a similar pledge in regard to the regulations as a whole.

May I ask whether, in view of the strong feeling in the country, the Government will reconsider their decision to withhold from Parliament the opportunity of discussing the regulations before the Ordinance comes into operation?

If the discussion to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is one relating to the principle on which the Government have acted in permitting Chinese labour to be used in the Transvaal, I think his request is a strange one, for, unless I am greatly mistaken, there have been two discussions upon the subject in another place, there were discussions in relation to it in the debate on the Address, and not less than two divisions have already been taken.

My point is that the discussions took place without any knowledge on our part as to what the regulations would be.

I am glad to hear that the objection of the right hon. Gentleman and his friends is only in a small degree directed to the principle, and deals chiefly with details; but my right hon. friend informs me that all the regulations involving the question of principle either have been, or will be very shortly, laid before the House, and the House has been fully informed of their character.

New Bills

Prisons (Scotland) Bill

"To amend the Law relating to Prisons in Scotland by abolishing the distinction between general Prisons and ordinary Prisons," presented by Mr. A. Graham Murray; supported by the Lord Advocate; to be read a second time tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 126.]

Teinds (Scotland) Bill

"To amend the Law of Teinds, and to abolish Fiars Prices in Scotland," presented by Mr. Maxwell; supported by Sir Charles Renshaw, Mr. James Campbell, Mr. Gordon, and Sir John Stirling-Maxwell; to be read a second time upon Friday, 6th May, and to be printed. [Bill 127.]

Supply 3Rd Allotted Day

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Civil Services And Revenue Departments Estimates, 1904–5 (Vote On Account)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £21,500,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charges for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, viz.:—

Civil Services

CLASS IV.
£
Board of Education7,000,000
CLASS I.
Royal Palaces and Marlborough House26,000
Osborne10,000
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens35,000

£
Houses of Parliament Buildings16,000
Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain30,000
Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain15,000
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings20,000
Revenue Buildings160,000
Public Buildings, Great Britain160,000
Surveys of the United Kingdom90,000
Harbours under the Board of Trade10,000
Peterhead Harbour10,000
Rates on Government Property260,000
Public Works and Buildings, Ireland110,000
Railways, Ireland60,000

CLASS II.
United Kingdom and England:—
£
House of Lords Offices.6,000
House of Commons Offices12,000
Treasury and Subordinate Departments40,000
Home Office60,000
Foreign Office30,000
Colonial Office25,000
Privy Council Office, etc.4,000
Board of Trade75,000
Mercantile Marine Services30,000
Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade3
Board of Agriculture65,000
Charity Commission15,000
Civil Service Commission18,000
Exchequer and Audit Department25,000
Friendly Societies Registry3,000
Local Government Board85,000
Lunacy Commission5,000
Mint (including Coinage)5
National Debt Office6,000
Public Record Office10,000
Public Works Loan Commission5
Registrar General's Office18,000
Stationery and Printing340,000
Woods, Forests, etc., Office of8,000
Works and Public Buildings, Office of30,000
Secret Service40,000

Scotland:—£
Secretary for Scotland25,000
Fishery Board8,000
Lunacy Commission3,000
Registrar General's Office2,000
Local Government Board5,000
Ireland:—
Lord Lieutenant's Household2,000
Chief Secretary for Ireland12,000
Department of Agriculture80,000
Charitable Donations and Bequests Office1,000
Local Government Board25,000
Public Record Office2,000
Public Works Office18,000
Registrar General's Office6,000
Valuation and Boundary Survey7,000

CLASS III.
United Kingdom and England:—
£
Law Charges45,000
Miscellaneous Legal Expenses28,000
Supreme Court of Judicature140,000
Land Registry18,000
County Courts4,000
Police, England and Wales17,000
Prisons, England and the Colonies360,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain140,000
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum14,000
Scotland:—
Law Charges and Courts of Law30,000
Register House, Edinburgh15,000
Crofters Commission, Scotland2,000
Prisons, Scotland38,000
Ireland:—
Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions32,000
Supreme Court of Judicature, and other Legal Departments43,000
Land Commission55,000
County Court Officers, etc.45,000
Dublin Metropolitan Police60,000
Royal Irish Constabulary600,000
Prisons, Ireland50,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools55,000
Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum3,000

CLASS IV.
United Kingdom and England:—
£
British Museum80,000
National Gallery10,000
National Portrait Gallery3,000
Wallace Collection3,000
Scientific Investigation, etc. United Kingdom22,000
Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales48,000
Scotland:—
Public Education750,000
National Gallery5,000
Ireland:—
Public Education760,000
Endowed Schools Commissioners400
National Gallery2,500
Queen's Colleges2,500

CLASS V.
£
Diplomatic and Consular Services250,000
Uganda and East Africa Protectorates, and Uganda Railway300,000
Colonial Services340,000
Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable35,000

CLASS VI.
£
Superannuation and Retired Allowances300,000
Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, etc.2,000
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances1,000
Hospitals and Charities, Ireland17,000

CLASS VII.
£
Temporary Commissions25,000
Miscellaneous Expenses17,587
Repayments to the Local Loans Fund
St. Louis Exhibition, 190460,000
Ireland Development Grant184,000
Total for Civil Services£14,170,000

Revenue Departments
£
Customs350,000
Inland Revenue830,000
Post Office3,800,000
Post Office Packet Service250,000
Post Office Telegraphs2,100,000
Total for Revenue Departments£7,330,000
Grand Total£21,500,000

said he proposed to move to reduce this Vote by the sum of £500, in order to call attention to the administration of the Education Act. He knew that he could only allude very indirectly to the merits of the Act itself. He wished to ask the Government whether, having regard to the state of things in the country and to the way in which the Act had worked, they would consider the question of mitigating the asperities of the Act and suspending the operation of certain clauses of the Act until the country had had an opportunity of reconsidering the whole question and expressing an opinion upon it. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Board of Education, in one of the debates last-year, expressed an opinion that the Act was working without friction. Well, that depended entirely upon what his idea of friction was. If it meant that there were no rows outside the Board of Education it could only be said that that branch of the Government was an exception and differed from every other branch. But that was not what friction meant or ought to mean. The questionwas—was the Act working smoothly in the country, was it accepted by the country as a settlement of the question? He was told from all parts of the country that one result of the operation of the Act had been that the work thrown by it on the county councils was so enormous, especially in the case of the larger councils, that it had fallen entirely into the hands of the officials; of course in that case there would be no friction, but then that was not what the Government called popular control. He proposed to call attention to the religious difficulty, because he was perfectly certain that until that difficulty was removed the Act would not work without friction. The hon. Gentleman last year suggested that the country was accepting it as a settlement even of the religious difficulty, but there was no section or class of opinion in the country that accepted the Act as a settlement of the religious difficulty; Nonconformists did not accept it, and the Church did not accept it, for the Church Times in a leading article only last week said, "nothing but a complete resettlement of the whole question can save us." No Party in the community accepted it as a settlement, and therefore he asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether he would do his best to prevent the worst features of the Act from being rigidly carried out until there was a resettlement, or whether he was determined, in the teeth of public opinion, to stick to clauses of the Act that were obnoxious.

Obnoxious except to hon. Members for Ireland, whom it did not touch. He was referring, of course, to the people who had to carry the Act out and to bear the burden. Every opportunity the country had had of expressing an opinion had boon taken advantage of to denounce the Act; and having regard to that, ought not the Government to do something not to press those parts which were obnoxious to the general public? The hon. Gentleman a year ago made merry over the passive resistance movement. At that time only a few hundred summonses had been issued, but the number of summonses had now risen to 18,000, There were 80,000 cases in which final notices had been served, and the movement was growing day by day. No doubt, from the strictly technical point of view, the movement was a conspiracy. But why was not a prosecution proposed? Because the sympathy of the public was with the resisters of the law. The Act was not accepted in England, there was a great protest against it, and the Government ought to reconsider their position even from the point of view of administration. He desired to speak chiefly with regard to Wales. The Principality was probably the most law-abiding part of His Majesty's dominions, the sole function of Judges of assize usually being to receive a pair of white gloves; therefore what had happened was not an outburst of anarchy or a sudden desire on the part of the people to break the law; it was simply a strong and emphatic protest against an Act which they considered to be unfair. What was the position of the Welsh county councils when the administration of this Act was cast upon them? They knew perfectly well that if they levied a rate for the support of Church schools, which were not popularly controlled, and in which sectarian tests were imposed, there would be a passive resistance movement throughout Wales of an even more extended character than had arisen in England. The large majority of the members of the county councils were Nonconformists, and they had to contemplate the possibility of having to prosecute, to drag to the police court and to sell up their own friends, members of their own faith, and their own political supporters, for not paying rates for the support of institutions which they themselves condemned; and they came to the conclusion that under the circumstances it would be fairer and braver to take upon themselves the responsibility of protesting than to leave it to their constituents, while they simply acted as prosecutors. The Board of Education had instituted an inquiry, which was the first step towards the issuing of a mandamus, and that, if persisted in, would mean imprisonment for contempt. Did the Secretary to the Board of Education really think that, having regard to the state of public opinion, this I was a case in which he should proceed to extremities? Was it not rather a case in which a broad and statesmanlike view: should be taken, and an attempt made to effect a settlement? These gentlemen in Wales had taken a conscientious stand, and it was as difficult to persuade men with strong convictions on a particular subject to abandon their position as to persuade a Government with no settled; convictions on any subject to abandon its position. He was not going to ask the Committee to express any opinion on the action of the Welsh county councils. Those bodies were responsible to their constituents for the course they had taken. But they bad a certain justification in the words of Ministers of the Crown. For instance, the President of the Local Government Board recently, referring to the breaking of the law by motorists, instead of urging prosecutions criticised the action of the police, and pointed out that even the Prime Minister had suffered in this respect. It was not the only respect in which the Prime Minister had suffered through allowing himself to be driven by a headlong chauffeur. But the President of the Local Government Board, after criticising the men who put the law into operation, proceeded to say that the law was a farce and must be amended. That was just the position of the Welsh county councils. The right hon. Gentleman was head of the Local Government Board, and the view of the county councils was "Our chief holds that if the law is a bad one we are justified in setting it at defiance, and that it is the duty of a decent Government to amend it." That, too, was the position of the Prime Minister with regard to licensing. The law provided that the necessities of the neighbourhood should be taken into account in the question of licences, but the Prime Minister had declared that that requirement pressed hardly upon the owners of property, and had appealed to the magistrates to suspend the operation of the law until an opportunity arose for amending it. The Welsh county councils contended that the Education Act pressed severely on the consciences of thousands of decent people, that they really could not put it into operation, and that, if it had to be administered, it should be by the Board of Education itself. They were determined not to be made the instruments for oppressing their neighbours, and they appealed to the Government to reconsider the whole situation and bring in an amending Bill. One or two cases out of many might be given as showing that irritation and even exasperation were justified by the administration of the Board of Education. One was the school at Pant Glas in Carnarvonshire. The trustees were Church, but the school had been built largely by the efforts of parishioners who were mainly Nonconformists. Unfortunately the trusts were usually settled frequently behind the backs of the subscribers—by the donors of the sites. For some time this particular school was run as a Church school, but, as there were few Churchmen in the parish, that could not be carried very far. When repairs and extensions were required, a meeting was summoned of the parishioners, who refused to subscribe unless the school were made in reality a parochial school. The clergyman had to accept the condition, and a representative committee of management was appointed. That was how things stood on the passing of the Act. Then, however, finding he could do without voluntary subscribers, the clergyman immediately obtained from the Board of Education an order for a new board of management, with the result that this school, built largely by Nonconformists, and containing not a single Church scholar, was placed under Church management.

*THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF EDUCATION
(Sir WILLIAM ANSON, Oxford University)

reminded the hon. Member that the Order to which he was referring was a Draft Final Order, made in accordance with the trust deed, and liable to be reconsidered by the Board of Education when the usage of the school in times past was brought before it by persons in the locality.

said that was exactly why he was raising the point. These facts had been represented by the county council, but he had yet to learn that the Board had intimated their intention of cancelling the Order. Under that Order the principal officiating minister of the parish was to be ex officio a manager, or, failing him, the archdeacon, who lived miles away; the nominated manager was to be appointed from time to time by the principal officiating minister; and the two representative managers were to be appointed by the subscribers—although there were now no subscribers, the whole cost of maintenance being cast upon the country. Another clause—which was inserted in all these Orders—provided that only bonâ fide members of the Church of England should be qualified to become managers, and that no person should be entitled to act until he had signed a declaration that he was a member of the Church of England. If this had been a solitary instance he would not have thought much about it, but he had a bundle of similar cases from Carnarvon, in each of which there appeared a disqualification clause by which the office of a foundation manager was determined if the manager in question became a bankrupt, a lunatic, or a Nonconformist. Although all the children in the schools were Nonconformist, not a single dissenting parent was allowed to be a foundation manager, and yet the Secretary to the Board was "mandamusing" county councils for refusing to stand such insolence in the Orders. Another case was the school at Clynnog, in which Mr. Acland took a great interest. The parishioners refused to subscribe for the rebuilding of the schools unless popular management was instituted. A representative board of management was formed and remained in office until the passage of the Act. The vicar was a member, but he was only one among five or six, and the system worked uncommonly well. Immediately after the passing of the Act an Order was obtained and there again was the same clause that they must be members of the Church of England. [MINISTERIAL cries of Hear, hear!] Hon. Members opposite seemed to think that that was a fair thing. This was a parish where the proportion of Nonconformists to Churchmen was 100 to nine and the only school in the parish built for Nonconformists with the parishioners money had been declared a Church of England school, and no Nonconformist could become one of the foundation managers. He thought that was a monstrous injustice.

said the Board of Education must pay some attention, under Clause 11. to the principles on which the education given in the schools had been conducted in the past. The Board of Education always regarded evidence of usage in the matter in order to settle the draft Orders which were sent to the local authority and other persons interested in the matter. The local authority had not apparently interested itself sufficiently in this matter to make any representation to the Board of Education. If either the local authority or any person interested in the matter had done so the matter would have been considered.

said the hon. Baronet must have forgotten that the county council of Carnarvonshire had made representations but the grievance had not been redressed. As a matter of fact he had a copy that morning of the representations made by the county council of Carmarthen to the Board of Education, but he had not the date.

said if the Secretary to the Board of Education told him that cases of that sort would be set right then his object would have been served. Take the case of Carmarthen. That was a very crucial case. He could give the Committee the case of a mining village where the rector appointed his two daughters and an old housekeeper at the rectory as the foundation managers. It had been stated that this was a parish 1,200 feet above the sea level. Evidently it was so much above all ordinary ideas of fair play. He was aware that the idea that one of these managers was a servant at the rectory had been repudiated, but he had made further inquiries and found that this statement was correct. One of his complaints was that under these Orders it was competent for the clergyman of a parish, practically, to have his own board of management appointed. Take the Carmarthen schools. With regard to an overwhelming majority of them the Nonconformists were in the proportion of three or four to one and in most cases the Nonconformists helped to build the schools. The hon. Baronet had appointed a very able lawyer to inquire into the matter and he wished to know whether he was going to inquire only into the technical breaches of the Act or into the whole educational condition of Carmarthen and report to the Government what the state of the case really was. Those schools in Carmarthen were under complete clerical control. The vicar was ex-officio manager and in some cases appointed the second member. Then the two together co-opted members, and in order to make them completely under the control of the minister the co-opted members retired one in the second and the other in the third year. Then they had to be re-elected by those who remained on the Board. The two clergymen on the Board could either elect or re-elect the co-opted members, and therefore instead of being perfectly independent their tenure on the Board was at the mercy of the two clerical members. That was what the Board of Education had sanctioned in regard to schools maintained exclusively out of public funds. There was the case of a village in Carmarthenshire where a school was built by the parishioners, and there was only one Churchman in the parish at the time. The clergyman resided in an adjoining parish. The old British school fell into a state of bad repair and the clergyman said that they must have a new school. Everybody contributed to the school and those who could not give cash contributed something else. Some gave the use of a horse and cart and others gave money, and they helped to build the school either by contributing in this way or giving their labour. To the astonishment of the parishioners the trust had been given over to the National Society. Naturally the parishioners made a protest, but it was no good, and the school was now being run as a Church school while practically there were no others but Nonconformists in the parish. That exasperated and irritated the people beyond endurance, and there were limits to human endurance. Here was a case of a trust in the hands of the Board of Education, and an Order that the foundation managers must sign a declaration that they were members of the Church of England and the moment they ceased to be members they were disqualified. The might be the best men in the parish, but the moment they joined the religion of the majority of the people who built the school they had to go. The people of Carmarthen declared that they would rather go to prison than pay the education rate under such circumstances. The Prime Minister said, "Why do you not build your own schools? The lavish generosity of Churchmen built these schools, and now you want to collar them." Churchmen had not built them. There was an inquiry by the Charity Commissioners—not a very partisan body from the Nonconformist point of view —into these trusts among others, and case after case would be found where the schools had not been built by the Anglican Church. Besides, if the parishioners there really wanted little denominational schools of their own they had got to build them. He made an inquiry into the case of Carmarthen, and he found that there was not a single parish throughout the county which had not an excellent school attached to some chapel or other, most of them better than the national school from the point of view of light, air, and ventilation. They were more modern and excellent buildings. What would happen if they followed the advice of the Prime Minister and took advantage of the clause in the Act which enabled them to set up denominational schools. He impressed this on the Committee in order to show that they were not making a fight for their own sect, and that it was not merely intolerance. Supposing they utilised each denominational school they could get more than thirty children and they could I get the county council readily to I acknowledge it, and they could go to the Board of Education, and that Board would not refuse it. What would happen was this. In a parish with 120 children all now in one school and brought up together as one little community, they would have three hostile wrangling little camps—the J Church crowd in one, the Congregational crowd in another, and the Methodists in a third. That was as bad from the social point of view as could be imagined. What about the educational point of view. From the sectarian point of view it would be a first rate thing. It would mean that the county council would furnish the school; every desk would be bought out of the rates instead of being subscribed for by little farmers who had not too much money to spare. More than that, they could get a teacher, and although they could not lay it down as a condition of his tenure, it would be an understanding that he would be a Sunday school teacher, that he would play the organ, and that he would be a sort of lay curate for the minister in the little church. There would also be one or two little assistants who would be most useful to the Congregational chapel in the district. If they were simply seeking sectarian ends they would follow the Prime Minister's advice, wreck the parish, and ruin education. He thought it was to their honour that they preferred to submit to hardship and grievance, and the intolerance and greed of one sect, until they got the thing remedied, rather than ruin the education of their children for a whole generation. The Congregationalists were practically the National Church in that community; they were an overwhelming majority of the public. The Anglican communion was a negligible quantity so far as numbers were concerned. He did not want to say anything disrespectful. The Church said, "We want to have our own school, and have our children taught by our own teacher—a man of our own communion. We think that is necessary for the religious instruction of our children." Congregationalists would naturally prefer a man of their own religious opinion, and he would be useful to them, but they preferred to take the interest of the whole community into account. Seeing that the Nonconformists were taking a perfectly unselfish point of view, he asked the Board of Education not to proceed to the extremity of sending men to prison for taking a perfectly enlightened, fair, and honourable view of their duty. There was no county council that had fretted the members of the opposite party or different communions more fairly than the county council of Carmarthen. It was a Nonconformist council by three or four to one. There was a vacancy in the clerkship of the council a short time ago, and although there were applications from Nonconformists, they elected a Churchman. It was idle to suggest that it was purely sectarian rancour that had driven them to this position. They had really done it for the protection of their own children, and the protection of their own people, and he asked the hon. Member to consider whether it was not better, from the point of view of education, from the point of view of the Government itself, that a perfectly fair inquiry should be instituted into the circumstances rather than that the Government should do as they had done. He knew they had been misled by the Bishops. He was perfectly certain that they were told by certain Bishops that the Welsh county councils would not take that line. He asked the Government whether it was not a case for statesmanship and not for police action. It was not a case for threats. These people were fighting a perfectly unselfish battle. They had been supporters of religious equality. In the election of 1868 they fought for the principle of religious equality for Ireland with no promise of anything for themselves. These farmers in Carmarthenshire defied their landlords then, and voted Liberal for the first time. There were scores of them evicted. There was an inquiry by the House of Commons into the circumstances of the evictions, and it ended in the passing of the Ballot Act. When the Welsh people had suffered all this for religious equality in Ireland, he thought he could appeal to Irish Members not to vote for sending men to prison when they were going to apply the same principle to themselves. These men were taking a perfectly broad view of the whole situation. He was speaking, be believed, the opinion of the vast majority of the people in Wales when he said that they would rather have a settlement thin strike, but if the Government persisted in pushing this to an extremity, they were prepared to endure any penalty the law could put upon them. The county councils of Wales met as a body, and sent a reasonable invitation to the Bishops to meet them and discuss the possibility of arriving at a settlement before they ever threatened at all. What did the Bishops do? Three of the four Bishops refused to meet the county councils. He knew it was the Bishops who were now pressing the Government to prosecute the Welsh county councils. He could well understand that hon. Members opposite could hardly conceive that to be the case, and he said that to their credit. He was sorry to say it was the case. It was Episcopal pressure which was now inducing the Government to take this action. He did not believe the Government wished to do it. They were willing to let matters slide. The county councils in Wales were willing to make things as easy as possible until a settlement was arrived at. One Bishop met them, and he said—

"We want facilities for religious instruction by our own people. We want first of all the syllabus of the London School Board. We want facilities to teach our own children our own creed; but we do not regard the syllabus of the London School Board as sufficient."
What was the answer of the Welsh county councils? He invited the attention of the Committee to this again before they determined that these county councils should be prosecuted. The official answer given by the Welsh county councils was that they would advocate the complete and unqualified acceptance of the proposals made in the Bishop of St. Asaph's memorandum as to arrangements to be made for religious instruction in all schools, for securing that such religious instruction should be regular and effective, and for seeing that there were special facilities for Church children. But the other Bishops refused to accept the proposals of the Bishop of St. Asaph. He would ask who, in these circumstances, was responsible for this unpleasant position? Was it the county councils who were prepared to meet the clergy? The councils even offered a rent to them for their schools. He asked the hon. Gentleman to say in his reply whether, rather than prosecute, he did not think it a case for a little toleration, a little consideration, and a real inquiry into the conditions. The danger of Ministers always was to apply what they thought was a strong hand in a situation of this kind. The real strong man was the man who was strong to take the, hazards of the right course. The hon. Gentleman had got to choose which course he would take. If he produced strife and sedition in Wales, it would do him no credit. On the other hand, if he took a wise and statesmanlike course, he would bring peace to Wales and earn the gratitude of the Welsh people.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Item, Class 4 (Board of Education), be reduced by £500."—( Mr. Lloyd-George.)

said he wished to support his hon. friend in the strong appeal he had made to the Government. The speech of his hon. friend was based not upon the religious question, but upon educational grievances, upon the damage which w is being done to the administration of the Act of 1902 in Wales by circumstances of a remarkable kind, to which ha called attention. He himself felt he had some title to appeal to the Government on this matter, because, from the beginning, he sympathised with what he conceived to be the main and ruling purpose of the Act of 1902. That purpose he took to be to place all education, higher as well as primary, in the hands of a representative body—the county councils having been chosen for the purpose—and therefore to lay the foundation of a system which would develop into an adequate national system of education all over the country. He pointed out at the time, both inside and outside the House, that what was then done was only laying the foundation; that there was a superstructure to be raised on the top, and apparently a price to be paid to the Church for removing obstacles, which required consideration hereafter. He was unable then to vote for the Government Bill because of the Church clauses, nevertheless he was strongly sympathetic with the purpose of the hon. Baronet and with the view of the Government which, as he conceived it, recognised that we had outgrown the School Board stage with its limitations to primary education, and a stage at which there was no School Board representation at all in large parts of the country. He believed that the hon. Baronet had been sincerely desirous of doing the best for national education, and that the distinguished permanent officials who assisted him were also anxious to make the most of their opportunities. He believed that a better spirit as regarded education was abroad now than for a very long time past, and yet they found the administration of this Act was being carried out in Wales in the fashion described by his hon. friend, and this must convince any impartial and fair-minded man that they were on the verge of a great peril for the very system of education which the Government had called into existence. Education could not be administered efficiently in the teeth of the opposition of a whole people. They could not mandamus a nation any more than they could draw an indictment against a nation. They could not compel a whole people, to whom they had entrusted the working of a system, to carry it out in a fashion repugnant to their own views and the views of their constituents. It was well deserving of attention that the Welsh county councils had not been accused of that. They appeared to have welcomed the principle of the Act, but had found it was impossible for them, in the face of public opinion, to dminister the Church clauses and to maintain the voluntary schools out of the rates under the schemes cast. The Motion of his hon. friend in substance was—"Let us have an inquiry into this matter on a much larger scale than is now done." It was all very well to say that they could have a Commissioner to make an inquiry under the Act of 1902; but the Commissioner would go down and take a strictly legal view of the question; it would be impossible for him to take that broad view of the subject which was necessary if the truth was to be brought before their minds. In that: state of things, the question was—what was the position of the Government on | this matter? He had considerable sympathy with the difficulty in which the hon. Baronet was placed. There was no doubt that his powers were very much narrowed by the chief clauses of the Act of 1902, and, if this were the place to discuss that Act, he would point out that that ought to make him gravely consider whether it was not the duty of the Government to come to Parliament to deal with these clauses. Wales was a very good test case. There they had the people as keen about education as in any other part of the Empire. Their education was far in advance of the general system in England or, he believed, in Scotland. In the latter country elementary education might have done well; but they had nothing to rival the intermediate education in Wales. In that state of things, the hon. Baronet had to administer the Act in Wales among a people who were as keen to make the most of it, and get the most out of it, as any in this land. But what was the situation? The whole country was in revolt, and from very obvious causes. They could not work an Act of this kind among a people like that without exercising the greatest toleration and forbearance, and without very considerably modifying the clause; of the Act of 1902. There never would be peace in that country nor would the condition of things be tolerable so long as the Act was administered religiously and not educationally. It would hive been infinitely better for the administration of the hon. Baronet if he had been able to say—" I have nothing to do with religious controversies; I am thankful that I am relieved from the necessity of entering on a course which can only end by bringing me into collision with either one religious body or another." The hon. Baronet had taken another course. He was not quite sure whether the hon. Baronet was driven to it by the clauses of the Act. The hon. Baronet used an expression that the draft Orders were made in correspondence and were subject to reconsideration. That was a hopeful expression. What he asked was —how, even in correspondence, had the hon. Baronet come to make Orders like these? If he said he had been forced to make them under Section XL, Sub-section 4, then his duty at a very early stage was to have said, "In the case we have in Wales, it is obviously essential that we should come to Parliament for further powers; and in the meantime I will make interim Orders only." But he had taken the hon. Baronet to guard himself by saying that under Section XI he had considerable discretion in the matter. If the hon. Gentleman had discretion then, he contended, it would have been better had these Orders not been made, even in draft. They were calculated to awaken more than suspicion—a real hostility on the part of the people who felt a grievance. How could they force people to pay out money for voluntary education in voluntary schools under conditions such as these Orders laid down? It could not be forgotten that this was not merely a Nonconformist, question in Wales. It was, first, an education question; and, second, if the view which his hon. friend took and which was supported by some of the most distinguished Churchmen in Wales, such as the Bishop of St. Asaph, had been adopted this controversy never would have arisen. A compromise was offered by which they would have adopted a certain amount of the London School Board system, and have given access during what were technically school hours, at the very beginning of the day, to those who wished to give religious education. Had that compromise been accepted it might have been that these Orders might have been framed in such a scheme if the hon. Baronet conceived he had latitude under Section XI. But the compromise was rejected; and how could the Government come forward and hope for success in the administration of the Act in Wales unless they were prepared to over-rule the more militant Churchmen and take the view of the minority of very large-minded Churchmen in that country? At the same time, he thought there might be great difficulty in such a moderate compromise. He was rather suspicious himself of what was called Bible teaching in the schools. He understood the view of the hon. Member for Greenwich was that the religious aspirations of people who desired Church teaching could not be satisfied under any mere system of that kind. What was wanted by such people was real Church schools, carried on in the spirit of the Church, and where religion was taught under direction of the Church. But his contention was that that was no business of the State, and he doubted whether it was any man's business in the State to give simple Bible teaching. What was simple Bible teaching would depend on the opinions of particular people. It was perfectly impossible to carry out a system of education which would enable the State to solve these religious conundrums and adjustments of dogma. The less the State had to do with religious dogmas the more it would be possible to do for education. He believed it would have been possible to have framed an Order which would have enabled all the denominations—including the Anglican—to get access to the schools, with certain advantages to those which had claims to the title of founders, and which would not have given rise to the vast seething controversy which had been aroused throughout Wales. There were three classes of people to blame in this matter. First of all, Parliament for having given way so much to the demands of the Church in framing what might have been a really great educational system for this country. Secondly, the Church for having insisted too much on its rights. The Government ought to have had courage to meet that insistence if their educational system was not to be brought to abject failure. Thirdly, the Department, for having made these draft Orders. Even draft Orders were calculated to excite suspicion or to provoke hostility, and the sooner they disappeared the better; and, therefore he hoped they were about to see the last of them in their present form. They might have the same thing in Yorkshire or East Anglia as in Wales, and wherever religious feeling ran high and the majority of the people were Nonconformist. Was that a condition of things that was good for education: He was looking at these things from the educational point of view and as a friend of those in this, or any Government, who made an effort to raise national education; and he would say to the hon. Baronet that if he wished to give the people confidence in the administration of the educational system of the country it was necessary to modify and avoid the kind of doctrine which had brought about such a controversy in Wales, and in many parts of England.

said the Education Act had been attacked from a great many points of view. The hon. Member for Carnarvon commenced by saying it had met with universal disapproval throughout the country. If that were so one would naturally seek for evidence of the fact from the local authorities who were concerned in the administration of the Act. If there had been universal disapproval surely there would have been some disinclination expressed on the part of the local authority to undertake the administration, but there were only ten local authorities in England and Wales whose schemes had not been submitted and published and actually approved by the Board: there were only four whose schemes had not yet been approved by the Board, but which were in course of publication, and there was not one local authority which had failed to send in a scheme. It might therefore be assumed that the Act had very considerable educational merits inasmuch as almost every local authority had undertaken to administer it, and all would do so if they could administer some portion of it in their own way. He did not want to argue over again what had been so often argued, nor did he wish to endeavour to calculate the infinitesimal portion of the rate which Nonconformists might be called upon to contribute to the religious teaching given in the denominational schools. He would rather ask what was meant when the hon. Member for Carnarvon said the Nonconformists were desirous of having a settlement; that they would not build schools for their own denomination; that they would rather wait till the matter was settled. Did this mean that they would wait till the schools passed into their hands I They appeared to have no scruple in compelling others, whatever form of religious belief they professed, to pay for the schools that they liked, in which the secular instruction was the same as in the voluntary schools but in which the religious teaching was what was called simple Bible teaching, which might be the teaching of mere reigious history, or which might convey dogma in various forms. But those were the schools of which the hon. Member and his friends approved and those were the schools they desired people to pay for. Did they wish to drive every one into schools in which the form of religious teaching was given which they themselves preferred, or did they wish to secularise education altogether? [OPPOSITION cries of "No."] He would like to know which of these views the hon. Member held.

I thought I said I accepted the proposals of the Bishop of St. Asaph on the point.

said he understood the hon. Member to say in January last that the Bishop of St. Asaph had entirely misunderstood him if he thought for a moment that denominational religious teaching could be given in school hours. Therefore the alternative was either the secularisation of education, which he ventured to think would not be popular in this country, or a religious tyranny by which everybody would be required to send their children to elementary schools in which teaching was given which the Nonconformists, and the Nonconformists especially, if not alone, preferred.

said they accepted the proposals of the Church with regard to the basis of religious instruction altogether, and so far as the times were concerned they accepted the proposals of the Department that the time should be put back in order to enable the Church Children to receive such special religious teaching as they required.

said he was right in restating the fact that the hon. Member denounced in January any id a that religious denominational teaching should be permitted in school hours.

said the hen. Baronet ignored the point, that the suggestion that the school hour should Le put back came from the Board of Education. That was accepted by the Welsh County Councils.

said it came to this that denominational teaching would not be given in school hours. He would like to know how far the dissatisfaction so far as it had been exhibited in England and Wales was really a genuine outburst of public opinion [AN HONT. MEMBER: The by-elections will tell you.] or how far it had been fostered by the hon. Member and his friends. He had been taken to task for speaking of the passive resistance movement as a political movement, but he did not think he was altogether wrong. The hon. Member having quoted a circular letter sent out by the president of the National Free Church Council and Dr. Clifford, the Chairman of the Passive Resistance Committee, also from a speech made by the hon. Member for Carnarvon at Portsmouth at a passive resisters' luncheon, confessed, that with every respect to the genuine expression of conscience that had no doubt found its place in some part of this movement, he could not but regard the movement as stimulated and organised by an energetic political Party for political purposes.

said in the course of this organisation there had been evidence of abundant misrepresentation. He would give to the House as an instance a resolution passed by a meeting of the Methodist Free Churches of Leeds and Bradford in opposition to the Act for the reason amongst others that it had abolished School Boards and substituted for them education boards; which gave the clergy of one section of the Church an almost absolute authority in determining the educational policy of the nation. He had not been able to refrain from pointing out in reply to those resolutions that the board schools were only transferred from the, popularly elected School Boards to the popularly elected county councils; that it could not be said that the clergy had a considerable place on the education committees of the county councils; that he should have thought there were very few clergymen on those committees; and that the voluntary schools were brought for the first time, so far as secular education was concerned, entirely under popular control; while the religious teaching there given was taken out of the control of the parson and brought under the control of the school managers. The answer which he had received was that it would have been fairer if he had taken the resolutions as a whole, especially the last resolution. The last resolution was as follows—

"That the Act violates the sacred rights of conscience, involving acts which interfere with the solemn relation between God and the individual soul,"
He confessed he felt it impossible to argue further with persons who applied such solemn expressions to the question of paying probably a few halfpence on a rate to teach children the religion of their parents. His own feeling was that he would willingly contribute to any form of religious teaching which would impart to the persons who passed those resolutions some of the elements of Christian truthfulness and Christian charity. Another form of misrepresentation was used with regard to these "Orders" for foundation managers. The practice was that the Board of Education sent a form of inquiry and received back that form filled up as to the conditions of the trust deed and the wishes of the managers, and the Board did not act further than to conform with the conditions of the trust deed and the wishes of the managers. The Order was circulated among the people of the neighbourhood, and anybody interested in the school could object to it if it did not carry out the conditions of the trust deed or the wishes of the managers or the usuages of the school. In the Daily News of December 6th a statement appeared as to Orders respecting six schools alleged to have been entirely managed by Nonconformists, and now transferred by the Orders of the Board to the management of Churchmen. As a, matter of fact five of the Orders were draft Orders awaiting representations from the locality; in the sixth case no Order had been made at all and every Order made was made as asked for by the managers. One of the two cases mentioned by the hon. Member was under the consideration of the Board, and in one of the cases attacked by the Daily News three out of the four managers were to be free from any Church qualifications. Only one representation had been received from the local education authority of Carmarthen, but a general complaint was made that a communicant qualification was required. In no casein the Carmarthenshire Orders was a communicant qualification required, as it had been the practice of the Board to leave out that qualification unless it appeared in the trust deed, and was especially demanded by the managers. In every case any representations made in respect to draft Orders had been considered, and as regarded Carmarthen the representation "from the local authority would be the subject of an inquiry to be held.

asked whether the hon. Gentleman would give instructions that the inquiry should cover all the circumstances and conditions and not be subject to technical restrictions.

had every reason to hope that the inquiry would be full and complete.

pointed out that the nature of the inquiry would depend entirely upon the instructions given. Would the hon. Gentleman instruct the Commissioner to inquire into all the circumstances; unless he did so, all sorts of things might be ruled out of a technical inquiry.

thought the Board would impress upon Mr. Lawrence that the inquiry should take as complete a form as possible regarding everything that might affect the judgment of the Board in making the Order which might have to be made as the result of the inquiry. He would now turn to the trouble which had occurred in Wales. This began with a conference held at Cardiff last year, in which the hon. Member laid down the startling proposition that voluntary schools would be better off than when they had to rely on subscriptions. That, he was sorry to say, was not so; they had suffered a lost of £12,000 a year. Anglesey schools, perhaps, were better off, but it was not the case generally that schools were better off under the grants. Another conference followed at Swansea, at which a "no rate" resolution was passed, and, though the movement did not require so extended an organisation as did the passive resistance agitation in England, great efforts were made by the hon. Member and his friends to prevent the Act being properly worked. At the Swansea meeting the hon. Member renounced the councils of South Wales for their willingness to carry out the law.

said that was the result of the hon. Member's endeavours. At that time there were certainly three counties prepared to carry out the Act. The Carmarthenshire Education Committee had an interesting discussion on the subject, in the course of which a "no rate" resolution was proposed and rejected, the chairman characterising the resolution as unchristian, immoral, and cowardly, inasmuch as it inflicted suffering on the innocent children throughout the country. Subsequently, however, the council was terrorised into departing from its decision; a number of Welsh Members of Parliament went down and exercised their influence throughout the county, and when the council met crowds of people attended the meeting, yelling as each vote in favour of the rate was given, and cheering every vote to the contrary. It was under these benign influences that the Carmarthenshire County Council passed a "no rate" resolution. The result of this policy had been deplorable. According to the reports of inspectors, in some schools attendance had fallen off and even ceased in consequence of there being no funds to provide fires, in others coals were supplied by the teachers, and in other instances materials and apparatus could not be provided. There had been refusals to appoint teachers and to make payments beyond the Parliamentary grant. He asked those Members of the House whose efforts had induced the Welsh County Councils to decline to put the Act into operation, so far as the voluntary schools were concerned, whether the Act could be said to have had a fair trial in Wales? Clearly it had not. Not only had the Act not had a fair trial, but the Nonconformists, who had endeavoured to prevent its having a fair trial, boasted of their law-breaking propensities. The Rev. Owen Campbell, speaking at a conference of the Haverfordwest and District Free Church Council, was reported to have said that Nonconformists had always been law breakers and it was by breaking laws that, they could get them repealed Such a sentiment appeared to him to point to anarchy. He hoped the House did not think that he was insensible to the difficulties of this religious question. No one who had been engaged, as he had been for more than a year, in administering this Act could fail to be painfully conscious of the continual irritation and difficulties which were aroused by the recurrence of these disputes over the appointment of foundation managers and the payments of the small amounts which the councils were asked to pay to the voluntary schools in Wales. He knew that the difficulty was great. The great difficulty in arriving at a solution such as he should like to see effected was to be found not in the Act of 1902, but in the law of 1870. During the debates on the Education Act he said there was another settlement of the religious difficulty which he hoped that they would reach some day, although the Act as it was then passed appeared to him to be a fair compromise. Believing as he did that education should be part of the child's life, and that therefore its religion should be part of its education, he desired to see a system under which religious teaching should be available for all, and denominational religious teaching for all who wanted it, in school hours, protected by a rigid conscience clause. But at the time of the passing of the Education Act they had to deal with 14,000 voluntary schools, with their buildings and with their trust deeds; they had to consider the condition of those schools, the immense sums which had been spent by the Church of England upon them, the infinitesimal proportion of the rate which was to be paid by those who did not accept the denominational teaching in those schools, and the necessity of bringing the voluntary schools into line as regarded secular education. Therefore he held that the compromise was a fair one. [OPPOSITION laughter and cries of "No," and MINISTERIAL cries of "Arrangement."] He would accept the word "arrangement." He contended that it was a fair arrangement and that it should have a fair trial. So far as he was able to insist upon it, it should have a fair trial. They were instituting an inquiry with regard to the county of Carmarthen, and when the Board of Education were put in possession of the facts they would have to consider what form of Order they must make to provide that the Act should be carried into effect. He thought that the Order might prove to be more effective than the hon. Member for Carnarvon supposed.

said if it was not effective, if the powers possessed by the Board were insufficient or inapplicable, he should have to ask for further powers and he should do so without hesitation. He should like to ask j hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite how they regarded this disobedience to the law by members of county councils who, having voluntarily offered themselves for election and having been elected to carry out certain duties imposed upon them, deliberately and avowedly cist the law aside. Did hon. Members opposite condone those actions? Did they approve of them? If they did not approve of them, would they have the honesty and courage to say so? In order to carry out a political purpose these councils had practised, if he might use the eloquent language of the Leader of the Opposition, "methods of barbarism"; they had neglected the children of their elementary schools, they had left them without books and materials, they had left them to remain cold and wet in the winter months for want of fuel. He doubted whether the country would approve of those actions, stimulated as they were by political animosities and religious bigotry—by the political animosities and the religious bigotry, he might almost add the personal ambition, of certain members of the Nonconformist body in Wales.

said the hon. Baronet's speech had left hon. Members on his side of the House more hopeless than they had ever been of any amendment of the Education Act from the present Government. They knew when the Government were passing the Act that it was their opinion that the Act would not raise strong feeling in the country. They had, until the hon. Baronet spoke, some hope that the Government might have realised now that their anticipations were wrong and that strong feeling had arisen. The hon. Baronet did not believe in the genuineness of the feeling because he said it was political. It was precisely because the feeling was strong and genuine, and because the sense of injustice was deeply felt, that the matter had become political. It had been said that those on the Opposition side of the House had been able to work up this feeling and make the Education Act a political question, but a little while ago it used to be hinted that they were in a hurry to take up the Education Act because the feeling in the country was so strong. Was the organisation of the passive resisters not a genuine feeling? Was tariff reform not organised and was the Anti-Corn Law League not organised. Was there no feeling behind those movements? The hon. Baronet laid down two propositions—that anything that was political, as soon as it became so, was not genuine, and anything which was organised was not sincere. That was the hopelessness of the position. Even the Prime Minister had not shown his inability to understand Nonconformist feeling with regard to the Education Act so perversely, if he might use the word without offence, as the hon. Baronet had done. The hon. Baronet seemed to think that the grievance was- an infinitesimal one with regard to the payment of rates, because it was only a few halfpence contributed out of the rates, which went to denominational teaching. Supposing it was a matter of principle or of conscience, the question of a few halfpence might be just as serious as the question of a few pounds. The whole root of the matter was not objection to denominational teaching, but objection to denominational management of public elementary schools. The hon. Baronet spoke of Nonconformists wishing to force children into schools of their own particular pattern. The hon. Member for Carnarvon had given cases in which the whole of the children of the Nonconformists were being forced into Church schools under the present Act — in one case all the children in Carmarthen and in another case 100 children out of 109. He thought that of all the clauses which had better come out of the Act the particular clause which offered facilities for the setting up of a number of small schools was about the most anti-educational. They could not divide the educational status of the ordinary parish up into a number of small schools. They must have one school, and to that school everybody must go. Hon. Members on the other side were always saying that it was a great hardship for the children of Church parents to be forced into a school where the atmosphere was Nonconformist, but they never seemed to realise that the hardship was just as great for Nonconformist children to be forced into a Church school.

asked if other hon. Members opposite realised it. The fact was that, though this might be greater in degree in Wales, it was a grievance which was widespread over the whole country. The Vice-President was going to have an inquiry into Wales. He did not know how far the inquiry was to go. The hon. Gentleman had told them that it was to be very ample, very thorough, and very full, but he had hinted that it might probably lead to a mandamus.

I only said it might result in our having to make an Order. I did not say it probably would.

said he would withdraw the word "probably" and say that, although he did not know what the result of the inquiry would be, the only possible result which he did put hypothetically to the House was that of a mandamus, subject to this that, if the mandamus did not prove effective, they must take some stronger measures. That was not a very hopeful spirit in which to conduct an inquiry. He wished personally that the inquiry was going to consider not only Wales, but how far it was possible to bring the provisions of the Act into conformity with the opinion of the country. If they had an inquiry of that kind it would soon be turned, not into an inquiry as to the conduct of the Welsh county councils, but an inquiry into the need of an amendment of the Act itself. The Vice-President deplored the friction constantly arising with regard to the administration of the Act, but it never seemed to occur to him that the reason for the friction was the Act itself. He knew the hon. Gentleman sincerely deplored that friction because he was a friend of education, but he did not see that until the Act was amended they would not get rid of that friction. They would not get rid of the friction till, as the result of the inquiries which might take place, they came to the conclusion that their system of elementary education must be a national system and that they must have all their schools on one footing. To do that he was quite aware that they would have to take over a large number of schools which were now privately owned, and that, so much had the expenditure of the country got out of hand, it was difficult to find the money. But when some of our wasteful expenditure had been brought under control, then they might have money to devote to education and an amendment of the Act which would at last bring peace and thoroughness into education.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)

said he would be interested to hear how the right hon. Baronet would bring all these schools into one pattern and how he would deal with the Cowper-Temple Clause.

replied that now that all the schools were practically supported by public money, they must be all under representative management. The difficulty was that a large number of these schools were privately owned, but a great many of these privately owned schools had been largely built out of public money. They would have to deal with these, in his opinion, just as they dealt with land or buildings that were required for public purposes. It was absurd that where school buildings already existed in a parish, and there was only need for one, hat the community should be put to the expense of building an entirely new school. They would have to apply compulsory powers of purchase to them, and when they came to that they would have to consider how much money would require to be spent before they were in thorough order. They would have to give to the county councils the power of taking these schools and treating them as provided schools. To give the County Councils the power of taking the schools they would have to find money out of the taxes to put the educational system on a satisfacfactory basis. They had dealt in Ireland with the system of dual ownership of land. The dual system in education was keeping education back, and there would be no settlement, he believed, and no real progress in this country until we got rid of the dual system. The Prime Minister had raised the question as to how they would deal with the Cowper-Temple clause in regard to religious teaching. That was, of course, a question on which opinion might greatly differ, and on which he was perhaps only entitled to speak his own opinion. He should say that, so far as religious teaching was concerned, he had no objection whatever to full liberty of religious teaching provided out of private funds and given outside of school hours. He would give every facility in the way of arranging the school hours for that instruction being given to children whose parents desired that they should have it. As to whether they would have secular education only, or whether they would have Board school teaching, there might be difference of opinion, but he was convinced that if they got over the difficulty of management and control, and got one system of education, they would find every section of religious opinion in the country much more reasonable and conciliatory than they expected.

Do you propose to force Catholic children into these schools?

said he knew the Roman Catholic difficulty was a great one in this matter, and he respected their feelings. If they made up their minds to have one system he believed they would find all sections of religious opinion more reasonable, conciliatory, and open to compromise than people were aware of at present. He expressed his personal opinion on that matter. The county councils were not worked up by the speeches of his hon. and learned friend the Member for Carnarvon. No one in the House would under-rate the eloquence and force of the hon. Member's speeches, but he would himself be the first to resent the idea that he and other hon. Members had manufactured the opinion in Wales which had made the county councils act as they had done. The action of the county councils in Wales was due simply to their feeling that the thing was not just, and that in the districts where the majority of the population were Nonconformists they had not had fair play. The county councils, and the Welsh county councils especially, deserved consideration from the House in this matter. Great obligations had been placed upon them. The larger the duties laid upon the local authorities the greater was the consideration with which they must be treated. They could not lay great duties upon them and treat them as indentured labourers bound to take orders without any say in the matter. The county councils in Wales were not backward about education. They were not unprogressive, but they, as he understood, had stated that in the present state of feeling, with the limited powers given them by this Act, they had difficulty in discharge of the obligations laid upon them. There was a time when this the House of Commons used to refuse supplies. Those were times to which hon. Members could look back with credit. The House of Commons was told in those days that it was lacking in public spirit, and that the country was suffering. Its answer always was that is grievances must be redressed. No doubt it might be said perfectly truly that the county councils were local, statutory, and subordinate authorities, but they would not dispose of this difficulty by taking narrow technical points. They would not dispose of it by narrow legal points, or the narrow application of abstract logic. They would have to recognise that, if they laid upon the county councils these great duties, they would have to have their say as to the powers necessary to entrust them with, in order to enable them to carry out their obligations. It was not the backward county councils that were making the difficulty. It was the most progressive county councils. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Hoard of Education said that in Wales they were not giving the Act a fair trial. Was the Act giving the county councils a fair trial? The progressive county councils were the local authorities which would have been most ready, sympathetic, and keen in working the Education Act, but these were the ones with whom most difficulty was found. The hon. Gentleman would have to realise that this feeling was genuine. He was convinced that until the matter was taken up in a broad spirit which would get rid of the dual system, they would have in education neither peace nor progress.

said that the hon. and learned Member for Carnarvon, after all his declamation, had scarcely produced two instances in Wales showing solid grievance in regard to the working of the Act. The hon. Member had referred to isolated cases in Wales where there had been special difficulties in connection with the schools. These were invariably cases which had rightly been brought under the notice of the Department, but no one of these cases had been dealt with under the clauses of the Act. They were all as it were sub judice, and had not yet been dealt with by the Board of Education. He was not going to dwell on this question as it affected Wales. He admitted that there was a great distinction between the Principality and England with regard to the working of this Act. He wished to be fair and just. One or two cases which the hon. and learned Gentleman quoted did show a certain inequality and injustice which might be remedied. They did occur in out of the way places, but he did not believe that many of them could be cited. So far as he was concerned, he would be one of the first to accept some possible Amendment which would enable the Board of Education to deal with such cases in an equitable manner. In Wales there were Radical county councils, but the position was very different in England. There were a large number of counties in England where the county councils were essentially Tory in their character. It seemed to him that the hon. and learned Gentleman ought to be a little more patient with regard to the campaign against the Act. He ought to have tested the Act and given it a chance before attacking its provisions in the way he had done. He, himself, would give the House his opinion of the working of the Act in Kent, where the Nonconformists would be more likely to have a rough time if it were not working fairly. Having given nine months close attention to its working he said advisedly that he had never known so much gross misrepresentation and calumny sown broadcast with regard to any Act of Parliament as there had been with regard to this Education Act. He knew that the word calumny just now was supposed to be a very ugly word, but if one half the calumny had been used against the character of any hon. Member as there had been against this Act, he would have been able to recover very substantial damages. He held in his hand a leaflet which denounced the Act as one for handing over the School Boards to the Romanistic clergy of this country. The changes made by the Act in regard to the position of the Nonconformists were, in his opinion, changes in favour of Nonconformity, and not of the Church. It is true that the difficulties surrounding the question had clogged the way of education to a very great extent. These difficulties met Mr. Forster in 1870, and prevented all succeeding Governments from touching the question of higher and secondary education until this Government tad the courage to face the situation. This Government had the same dilemma to meet, but they successfully encountered it, by founding a compromise on the top of the earlier compromise. What was that compromise? It was to ask those who possessed the buildings of the voluntary schools, and to whom the value of the site also appertained, to hand over these to the nation if a portion of the rates were assigned to them. Of course, in addition to that, there was the alteration by the introduction of the outside management. A fairer or more just compromise was never offered. The great controversy between the two sides of the House had been in regard to control; but he said advisedly, after nine months experience of the working of the Act in his own county, that before another year was over, all the old parson-controlled schools would have disappeared. The introduction of one-third of the representatives outside the trustees into the management of these schools had thrown all the inner working of the schools open to the public and made it public property. It enabled daily and even hourly tests to be applied to the working of the conscience clause in everything appertaining to the Church schools; and now there was no grievance for which there was not an immediate remedy. If any wrong whatever was being done, there was a court of appeal in the educational committee of the county or borough council. One thing he had discovered was that if there was one difficulty greater than another it was to give the managers of those schools something to do. The result was that the representative body was practically the managers of the schools. There was not a single complaint made by any Nonconformist parent connected with any Church school in his county brought before him which he was not prepared to deal with at once and to rectify to the full. And yet they were told that this was an Act to hand over the schools to the power of the priest. A more unfounded statement was never made. A grievance much touched on was a very just one—that of the treatment of the pupil teachers. They all knew that for a vast number of years it was not possible for Church schools to have Nonconformist pupil teachers. But no test was now to be applied either to pupil teachers or assistants; and under the Cowper-Temple Clause, Nonconformist students could now enter pupil-teacher centres, training colleges, and hostels without any test whatever. That was a very serious change in favour of Nonconformists. He was prepared to admit that there was one grievance remaining, and that was that Nonconformists could not become headmasters of certain school, but that was part of the compromise to which he had alluded, and it was on that compromise that the buildings and leases had been handed over to the nation for public purposes. He was bound to say that except for that bar, the highest posts in the teaching profession were practically about as open to Nonconformists as to Churchmen; and before long there would be openings for the children of Nonconformists in the secondary schools and all the other branches of the teaching profession generally. He welcomed some of the remarks from the hon. Baronet the Member for Berwick, who suggested a possible Amendment to brush away once for all these difficulties. Hon. Members opposite knew that his views in regard to these matters were not illiberal. He had always looked at this question from an educational point of view; but in common fairness and justice they should admit that the Church of England first of all introduced the great question of education, and occupied the ground to an enormous extent when first the education of the children of England was seriously grappled with. The Church of England was there to-day, and it was because she was there to-day that he wished to separate education from mere denominational squabbles. He, for one, would therefore welcome any compromise by which they would secure that every parent could have the particular religious education which he, or she, wished for his, or her, children absolutely given in the schools. The lion. Baronet the Member for Berwick suggested that this was a question of money, and with that he agreed. The hon. Baronet suggested that religious education should not be given in school hours, but that the schools should be open for it an hour earlier; but he believed that that system would break down because of the difficulties concerning the attendance so early, of the children whose parents wanted them to earn a little money. The difficulty might be solved by the State stepping in and, for the sake of peace, giving a grant of so much a year for the purpose of religious education. Rather than that there should be no settlement of this vexed question, he would hand over that money to all denominations alike for religious education. He believed that no money of the State would ever be spent to better purpose. Those were questions on which he felt very deeply. He did not and he could not believe in the evil prophesies concerning the working of the Act in which some lion. Members opposite indulged. He believed in the local authorities; that they were practical business men who would look at these difficult problems purely and simply from an educational point of view, and he was certain that they would not lean either to the advantage of Church or Dissent to the injustice of either. And so far as those with whom he was associated in his own county were concerned, though there was a preponderance of Churchmen on the committee, every possible injustice and grievance of Nonconformists which came before the committee would be remedied. And of this he was certain, that all the extraordinarily exaggerated statements made concerning the Act would vanish into thin air, and that the Act would be worked wisely and well in the future.

said he was not one of those who did not want the local authorities to carry out the Act. It was perfectly true that when the Act was under discussion he thought the School Board system was the best: but he had changed his opinion and he believed now that the present was the best. They had been told that the Act was a compromise. He repudiated that. The Act was thrust down the throats of Members on his side of the House, and to talk of it as a compromise was ridiculous. The hon. Baronet the Member for Dart-ford said that the Act was a good Act so far as it went; that it was good for England.

said that no Act of Parliament which was good for one part of the country and impossible for another part could be a good Act in itself. It had been said that the hon. Member for Carnarvon had started this agitation in Wales. With all his admiration for the hon. Gentleman he did not think that he would claim that he had started the agitation. He could not imagine that hon. Members opposite who made that statement really appreciated the position. After all, would hon. Gentlemen opposite put themselves in the position of the people in Wales? He ventured to say that there was not a voluntary school in Wales in which every two out of three boys and girls were not the children of Nonconformist parents. Out of those sixty schools there was not a single one in which the majority of the children were not children of Nonconformist parents. Imagine the position reversed, and instead of the Church people having the majority of the management of these schools that four Baptists had the management, and only a Baptist was able to become headmaster. Under such circumstances there was one noble Lord opposite who would be a passive resister, and he would give the Bishops the credit for being passive resisters, and their Party would be ashamed of them if they were not. The position was the same throughout Wales. The majority of the children in 99 out of 100 of the voluntary schools were Nonconformists. In more than half they were two to one and in the remainder they were five to one. The parents sent their children to these schools with the knowledge that four out of the six managers were certain to be Church people, and that the headmaster and head mistress were Church people. It was nonsense to say there was no Church of England atmosphere in such a school. The Government must face the difficulty that many had become passive resisters honestly, truthfully, and concientiously. What was the position? The Government was paying the whole: cost of carrying on the schools, the buildings had to a large extent been supplied by Church people, but they had had the use of them for thirty years, and it must be remembered many of them were built to prevent a Board school coming into the place after the passing of the Act of 1870. Were the children to be impressed and stamped with Church doctrine for all time? Under these circumstances he thought the county councils were justified in the action they had taken when they found that the vast majority of their constituents were in favour of their not carrying out this Act. Assuming a mandamus I was applied for what was to be the result? Were they to be fined or sent to gaol? Let the Committee imagine what the result would be in that case. The posit on was ridiculous. If the new members who had undertaken to carry out the Act in the way suggested, attended any of the meetings of the council and the other members withdrew, there would not be a quorum to carry out any business and this Act could not be carried out; was everybody in Wales and Monmouth to be sent to goal? Was the whole country to be fined? Would it not under the circumstances be best for the Government to admit that they had passed an unworkable Act, and one that could not be carried out so far as the management was concerned. And inasmuch as they would never get the people of Wales to assent to the proposition that all who were appointed to headmasterships should be Church of England people, would it not be better to face the position at once than to have an inquiry to find out whether or not the late county councils had committed a breach of the Act. If that were done and new county councils elected, their majorities would be even greater than before. The hon. Member had spoken about Christian truthfulness and Christian charity, could not Christian truthfulness and charity be obtained from the Church side? Was it Christian truthfulness and charity to build denominational schools and compel the people of the neighbourhood to send their children to these schools, which were Church schools in every sense of the word? Let hon. Members put themselves in the position of the Nonconformists, and see how they would feel in that position. He ventured to assert that if they did, the Act would be impossible in M ales in a very short time. If the Government knew the feeling in Wales in reference to this Act he did not believe they would ever force it down the throats of the Welsh people. He ventured to say five out of six Welsh people were prepared to go through a considerable amount of martyrdom, not because of what their Parliamentary representatives told them, but because of what they thought and spoke of among themselves.

said this reduction had been moved by the hon. Member for Carnarvon in order to censure the Board of Education for their administration of the Act. Some of the grievances brought forward by the hon. Member appeared to be in course of consideration by the Board. One or two of them, as he understood, had already been dealt with and mitigated. Therefore, so far as the question of the reduction of the Vote and the grievances brought forward were concerned, he thought there was nothing more to be said. But his hon. friend in his turn had made a very grave charge against the local authorities in Wales. He had himself always maintained that the great principle of this Education Act was not the Church clause, as they had been called, but the devolution on the local authority of all educational powers and responsibility, and be did not think if the Liberal Party came into power to-morrow they would alter the principle of the Act. In future the whole responsibility for the organisation and administration of education would rest with the local authorities; and the charge which the Secretary to the Board of Education was bringing against the Welsh local authorities was that they were now refusing to administer this statute law, and were by their attitude making it impossible for the Act to be carried out. This attitude was assumed by the Welsh people not because they were opposed to the local administration, because there was no part of the United Kingdom where local responsibility was more welcomed than in Wales. When the first Education Bill was presented its warmest supporters were the Welsh Members. Therefore it was not the fundamental idea of the Education Act which caused this hostility on the part of the Welsh county councils, but a desire to procure the amendment of certain parts of the Act. Whether it was right or wrong to attempt to force the House of Commons to amend in certain directions the Act of 1902 he would not discuss, but the attempt would be much more likely to secure his sympathy if the sufferers from the attempt were not the unhappy children in the schools. He put it to the Welsh Members, was it right to attempt to procure the amendment of an Act of Parliament by putting this stress and strain upon the children attending the schools in Wales? Under the law of the land it was the duty of the Welsh county councils to provide for and supervise the secular instruction in the voluntary schools which they now refused to touch. The fact that in those schools, although the instruction given was according to the formularies and doctrines of the Church of England, the greater proportion of the children were Nonconformist, well deserved the attention of the House, and if any amendment of the law could be introduced by which that grievance could be alleviated, it was one the House must properly consider. But if the children were Nonconformist, there was the conscience clause of which they could take advantage. The religious instruction even in Church schools was to a very small extent denominational, and in few schools was denominational instruction given on more than one day in the week. There was nothing whatever to prevent the parents withdrawing their children while anything in the shape of denominational instruction was being given. But the children in these schools were entitled to have their secular instruction cared for by the county council, and it was not right that they should be deprived of the advantages of warmth, light, and proper apparatus, which Parliament had conferred upon them by this Act. That consideration caused him entirely to disapprove of the particular method by which the Welsh county councils were attempting to secure the amendment of the Act. He respected their conscientious scruples, but he thought they were wrong in adopting a procedure by which injury was inflicted upon the totally innocent children. When Vice-President of the Council he avoided as much as possible discussing the religious question because, while he did not think it caused any real difficulty in the schools, it had recently caused great difficulty in the administration of the Act. In dealing with the religious question three courses were open to Parliament. The first was to restrict the operations of the State to secular instruction. Such a course, for which much might be said, had been adopted in many of the Colonies and almost universally in America, and experience had not shown that it led to a very irreligious character on the part of the population. It certainly developed the Sunday school, making that institution a much more real thing, and many of the American States bore evidence to the fact that a religious and pious population could grow up under such a system. But the people of this country were not prepared to adopt that system; certainly public opinion was not ripe for it at I present, and it must be put aside as not being practical politics. The second course, tried to some extent in the Act of 1870, was to invent a form of religious teaching on which everybody agreed. He knew of no religious instruction which came as near to that definition as the instruction given under the London School Board. That instruction was admirable, as far as it went; it was based I on the Bible; it dealt with simple portions I which the children could understand; and, as a preparation for further instruction in more advanced theology, or more advanced dogmatic religion, it could not be surpassed. But there again the great objection was that the people were not I content with it.

said the Roman Catholics, the Jews, and a large proportion of Church of England people were not content with it. To force children of these people to receive undenominational teaching against the will of the parents was a matter of oppression. The third course was to provide frankly denominational teaching. It was because there had been such teaching ever since the Act of 1870 that that measure had worked as well as it had. The children were able to go to Church of England, Wesleyan, Roman Catholic, or Jewish schools, and get the particular kind of instruction desired by their parents. He admitted that in many places there was no choice, and it was in those places the agitation arose which culminated in the Act of 1902. He had always thought that the religious difficulty could be solved in the simplest possible way. Why should it not be made a part of the duty of the managers to see that as far as practicable all the children received such religious instruction as was acceptable to their parents? That would be just and fair all round. That was not a mere theatrical suggestion; it had been carried out in hundreds of schools for the last thirty or forty years. In many schools, theoretically Church schools, there were committees on which Nonconformists had representation; on most days of the week religious instruction applicable to all the children was given, and on one day in the week separate religious teaching to the Nonconformist, and the catechism, or other forms of Anglican teaching, to the Church children was given. Why could not the whole of this difficulty be settled in that way?

asked what the right hon. Gentleman would do when there were half-a-dozen sections.

said there were not half-a-dozen sections who could not agree upon a common form of religious teaching. At the outside there would not be more than two or three different sections to provide for. That seemed to him the only solution possible, and if it were carried out fairly—as he was sure it would be under the county councils — he believed the religious difficulty would cease to exist. He earnestly pleaded with the Welsh people that, in the meantime, until an amendment of the present arrangements could be procured, they should not let the poor little children suffer, but come to some modus vivendi with the Church and the Board of Education. [Mr. LLOYD-GEORGE: Hear, hear!] He congratulated the hon. Member on his attempts to bring about such an arrangement; he had nothing but praise for his action; but would not the hon. Member, joined by his friends, renew those efforts, and see whether, in conjunction with the Board of Education, a modus rivendi for the next year or two could be arrived at, so that the schools would be taken over by the county councils, the secular instruction in Wales kept up to a proper standard, and these children saved from the deprivation of education, warmth, apparatus, and so forth, which appeared to be the result of the present deadlock.

said the last speaker had left the matter in a far more hopeful condition than had the speech of his successor at the Board of Education. His scheme would be workable given two previous conditions. In the first place, they must have absolute public control over education, and, in the second place, the teachers must be entirely the servants of the public authority. He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University would agree with him in that. If they could have those two points conceded then they could see their way out of the difficulty. With regard to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary, he persisted in stating that the Act of 1902 was a compromise, and he had complained of serious misrepresentations of that Act. The most serious misrepresentation he (Dr. Macnamara) had heard was to call the Act a compromise, because that was exactly what it was not. The Act of 1902 repealed the whole legislation of thirty-one years, and one-third of the Act was closured, and the situation afterwards worsened in another place. He did not know how an Act like that could be called a compromise. The Act of 1870 was a real compromise, for Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Forster were continually receiving and accepting suggestions from the Conservative side, and as much of that Act belonged to the Conservatives as to the Liberals. That was a compromise, but how many opportunities did they, the Liberals, get of introducing any workable alterations is the Act of 1902? The Parliamentary Secretary said he did not understand their position on the question of religious instruction, but all they desired was to secure religious liberty. He said they had now to choose between universal denominationalism and universal secularism. The choice was not between these two. If they were driven back to secularism in their schools it would be because of the bickerings of sectarian bodies, and he personally should deplore that. The choice was along the lines so able set forth by the hon. Member for Carnarvon and the Member for Cambridge University, namely, the St. Asaph compromise. That system consisted of undenominational instruction with Biblical instruction, along the lines of the London School Board system. [An HON. MEMBER: That was outside the time-table. No, it was not outside the time-table. There were certain hours during which the children came to school, and it was no use fixing the religious education outside those hours. It was no use offering the Church of England facilities for religious teaching at hours at which the children would not come. What the Bishop of St. Asaph and those who acted with him agreed to, was that on the days upon which specific denominational teaching was to be given the time-table hours should be altered from 9.30 or later, so that the children might attend in ordinary hours and come to school as they did under ordinary circumstances, but State compulsion was to begin at the later time. That was not outside the ordinary school hours, but it was agreed that if these special facilities were given they should be paid for by the denomination themselves. He deplored very much the breakdown of the St. Asaph compromise, but they could not blame Nonconformists for it. They must blame the stupidity of one or two Church dignitaries in Wales. Another effort was made by the Rev. Canon Eade and Mr. Samuel Storey in the county of Durham, and they went further than the Bishop of St. Asaph. Did hon. Members think that tie Darham proposal, which would have settled the difficulty all over the country, was not a fair and reasonable one? The Durham proposal was put forward as an experiment, and it met the difficulties in the fairest way, for it gave preferential treatment to the managers of non-provided schools. It laid down that the county council should appoint the teachers on the recommendations of the managers of the school, Non-provided schools were to be leased for a period and even the State teacher night, for a consideration, become the denominational volunteer. That meant that the Nonconformists of Durham were prepared to go a very long way to meet the difficulties, and he deplored the lack of foresight and statesmanship shown by the leaders of the Church of England, one or two o; whom opposed the whole scheme and thus brought about this bitter struggle He thought that half-a-dozen men chosen from both sides of the House could settle the matter in a very short time. If they were to look up the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich with his hon. friend the Member for Carnarvon and say that they should not come out until a settlement was effected, he really believed they would arrive at a settlement. He had grave doubts as to which would come out alive; but there would be a settlement all the same. He deplored the stupidity of those who had caused these struggles, which a little generosity and liberal-mindedness on both sides could have avoided.

said he understood that the matter before the Committee was a proposal to reduce the Vote, on the ground of the maladministration of the Board of Education. In all matters of concordat the Board of Education, so far as it had any powers in the matter, had done its best to stimulate any proposals made to it. Therefore, what the hon. Member was saying did not apply to the Board of Education.

said he had been very careful to limit his remarks to one or two dignitaries of the Church of England, and not to the Board of Education. He came now to a matter of pure administration. To-day he asked a Question with regard to the London education scheme, and he understood that it would be discourteous to the Council to reply to his Question at the present time. He understood the sanction of the Board of Education to the London County Council scheme was on its way, but the Parliamentary Secretary did not want to say co at the present time. They could not expect consistency from Governments, but they did expect it from Government Departments. He thought the London scheme was hopelessly inadequate. There were to be thirty-eight members of the London County Council, and five women to be co-opted under the London scheme. Section 17 of the Act laid it down that representatives of other bodies and persons of experience in education acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools in the area, might be appointed. In the early days of the Act the Board of Education laid the greatest stress upon that provision, and at Loughborough and Bridgwater they rejected schemes because they did not include representatives of the outside area and persons of a more wide and varied experience in education. The Board of Education had been sending back schemes all over the country on these grounds, and he asked for a little consistency in dealing with big and little authorities. On the 5th of November, 1902, the hon. Baronet said county councils were not elected specially for educational matters and some of them might not be the best for education, and it was therefore desirable that the local authorities should be assisted by persons acquainted with the work and that it should be incumbent upon them to appoint a committee. The Board of Education had been fighting Cardiff, Swansea, and Newport ever since they submitted their schemes, although they were similar to that of the I London County Council. He protested very vigorously against that kind of treatment in the case of these Welsh boroughs. The scheme of the London County Council did not satisfy Section 17 of the Act. When the Committee were discussing the Estimates on 9th July 1903, the hon. Gentleman explained what these schemes would have to contain. The hon. Gentleman said then that he was prepared to stand by the declarations which had been made, and to insist that these provisions should be met in the schemes, and he had been insisting ever since until he came to deal with the London County Council. He thought it was discreditable that a great Department of the Government should worry these little towns to meet their desires in the matter of their schemes, and that it should be afraid to tell the London County Council that their scheme did not satisfy the requirements. His Welsh colleagues had been taunted with having defied the law. He thought that men who defied the law showed a good deal more respect for it than those who made it farcical, which was what the Board of Education had done.

said the Act of 1902 had certain features regarding which he desired to offer a few observations. The first of these features was that the School Boards should be abolished throughout the country; the second was the endeavour to make provision for the more efficient teaching in the schools in which a majority of the children of this country had to receive their education; and the third was the substitution of the county council for the School Board as the education authority. The Committee must have listened with the greatest possible interest to what was said by his hon. and learned friend the Member for East Carmarthen. The hon. Member was formerly opposed to the county councils having charge of education, but he now stated that he was convinced that he had been wrong, and that the county councils were the better authority. When the Bill was passing through the House they were told from time to time that the propel body to take charge of education was an ad hoc authority.

said he supposed that what was said by the hon. Member for East Carmarthenshire might be taken as a sort of epitaph on all those prophecies.

All the Welsh Members, with one exception, voted for control by the county council at that time.

said he was very glad to hear that, and it confirmed what he was saying, that there was a large body of opinion in favour of the Government proposal for the substitution of the county councils for the School Boards. The second feature which the Act of 1902 dealt with was this. A considerable majority of the children of the country were then in what were called voluntary schools. These schools were not, in many cases, as efficient as they ought to have been. They were not efficient for the best of all reasons—that was, the want of means to bring the education up to the level of that given in the best Board schools, and in addition to that there were complaints that these schools were very much under clerical control. He could not help feeling that the second complaint was one unduly exaggerated. The existence of abuses arising from clerical control were few and far between. The influence of the clergy on ducation had been for the advantage of the country. Hon. Members seemed to be altogether oblivious to the services rendered to education in this country by the clergy of the Church of England at a time when the State did little or nothing for education. When no one else would take it up, it was taken up by the clergy, and carried to a considerable point by them. A vast number of the children attending the voluntary schools which he had described were Nonconformists. How was their grievance to be redressed? He was one of those who believed that it was the right of every child to have as good an education as could be secured for it. He believed that in the matter of education a good healthy element of lay control was a desirable element. Was there any alternative proposal be-lore the country when the Act was passed? Nothing whatever. If it might be called an alternative policy the idea which seemed to be at the back of some of the opposition to the Government measure was that the voluntary schools should gradually be allowed to bleed to death until they were unable to compete with the Board schools, so that when in the course of time they would cease to exist they would be universally supplanted by a system of Board schools all over the country. There were many objections, to which he was not going to refer, to that proposal, but what he did ask the House was this—What was to become of the children in the meantime while that process was going on? He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University was quite right when he called the attention of the Committee to the fact that, in a debate in regard to the administration of the Education Act, the first thing to be considered was the interest of the children. The schools attended by a large majority of the children of the country being admittedly inefficient, were they going to continue that state of things indefinitely until one by one they had disappeared, and until in the course of a generation, after any amount of friction had been gone through, they should find them supplanted by a universal network of Board schools all over the country? He ventured to say that that was an impossible proposal in the interest of fair dealing towards those schools. The Act had remedied those evils which existed before it was passed. Wherever the Act was fairly administered the non-provided schools would now be on the same level of efficiency with the very best provided schools; and the result was that, whereas the majority of the children had formerly to put up with an education not so good as that at the service of the minority, every child would now have the best education which could be provided. The alleged grievance of too much clerical control in the voluntary schools had no foundation whatever in fact, while so far, as the grievances of Nonconformist teachers were concerned the Act was a great step in advance [An HON. MEMBER; No.]—well, a step in advance. He dissented altogether from the doctrine that the State should adopt the system of secular teaching, and hoped the day would never come when such a system would be introduced into the schools. Whatever might be said of the abstract merits of such a system the people of this country would have none of it. It was absolutely outside the range of practical politics. From every point of view it was extremely undesirable, and for this reason—that there were a great many children who would receive no religious instruction if it did not form part of the teaching in the elementary schools. But, was it impossible that there should be something of an agreement among the great bodies which represented religion in this country? Of course, the case of the Roman Catholics must be dealt with separately; but was it not possible- that, among the other bodies which held so much in common, there might be an agreement as to what was suitable religious teaching for children? The hon. Member for Carnarvonshire, when something of that kind was suggested by the right hon. Member for Cambridge University, said, "How is that possible where you have six sects to deal with?" But surely these six sects were not at variance on the subject as 10 what was suitable religious teaching? Or, if they were, it was a scandal to their common Christianity. Speaking for himself, he could most devoutly have wished that some such compromise as that associated with the Bishop of St. Asaph could have been arrived at. He understood it was that religious teaching such as was provided for under the London School Board syllabus should be given, supplemented by such denominational teaching as was desired by the parents of the children. If he was correctly informed, the hon. Member for Carnarvon was very largely responsible for the miscarriage of that proposal, because that hon. Gentleman insisted that denominational education should not be given in school hours. It was no use providing denominational education unless it was allowed to be given in school hours, for in a great many cases the children would not otherwise be got to attend.

said that if that were the reason the compromise was refused, that reason was not assigned by the clergy at the time. On the contrary, all the conditions laid down by the clergy in regard to religious education were agreed to in the most unqualified terms.

said he was not familiar with the details of what had passed, but he gathered that he was right when he stated that the hon. Gentleman had insisted that the denominational teaching should not be in school hours. To his mind denominational teaching, to be a reality, must be given in school hours, because, if given out of school hours the temptation would be very strong on the parents to employ their children in these hours for the profit of the family, or in amusing themselves, instead of attending, to the religious instruction provided for them. He desired, in conclusion, to emphasise the appeal made to consider the interests of the children in Wales on this subject. Was it not too bad that, while this dispute was raging, the children should be left without proper fires, proper books, and the best teaching The children were far too valuable to be mere counters in the game of political or ecclesiastical controversy. He hoped that the Committee would recognise that the Act of 1902 was an honest effort, in the interests of the children, to promote thoroughly good and efficient education, and that that Act had been well and honestly administered by the Department in charge of it.

said he wished to say a few words to express his sympathy with the proposition of the hon. Member for Carnarvon in so far as this meant that the Act of 1902 should be amended. He felt the more justified in saying that, because he had always from the beginning expressed his opinion that the Act had within it many admirable provisions for the improvement of the general education of the people. He did not wonder that it had excited an interest in education, and had promoted education throughout the country to a very remarkable extent. But the Bill even as presented and still more when it left the House as an Act contained within itself, in his opinion, certain evils. One evil was that, for the first time, teachers paid by the State were called upon to declare their religion. But an even greater evil than that was that, so it seemed to him, the Act contained the possibility of stirring up religious strife throughout the country, and so interfering with the interests of the education of the children. When he looked back on the history of the past two years, he must confess that it had raised up strife. Admirably as it had been carried out in the case of his right hon. friend the Member for Dartford, the very complaint of the right hon. Baronet proved that it had created religious controversy. The number of passive resisters showed how a real element of religious strife had been stirred up by the Act. His political conscience was stronger than his religious conscience, at least to this extent, that he was willing to accept the little wrong which might be done by the Act in order to secure its greater benefits. But his religious conscience was strong enough to make him appreciate the working of the conscience of those in all conditions of life, following all manner of occupations, in every variety of circumstances, who had been led by their consciences to do that which they had never done before, and what they trusted they would never do again, resist the law; and it was in order that that religious strife should as soon as possible be brought to an end that he wished to see the Act amended. From what he had heard that day, he had greater hope than he had two years ago that the real solution of the problem, that which was contained in the suggestion of his right hon. friend the Member for Cambridge University—a solution, however, which had formerly been rejected—would be in the end accepted. That solution lay in this, that the State, since it could only well and truly handle those things about which it was not bitterly and widely divided, and since it was bitterly and largely divided about religious instruction could not handle that, but could well and truly offer teaching which included the teaching of right and wrong, and man's duty to his neighbour. Looking round, it seemed to him that there was a growing public opinion in favour of what had been suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Haddingtonshire and supported by the right hon. Baronet from the Front Bench. He did not like to use the phrase secular teaching, because secular teaching seemed to connote the idea of teaching which did not help in the formation of character or of moral well-being. Moral teaching did not depend on any one religious opinion; it was the basis and the product of all religions. The solution towards which public sentiment seemed to be tending, although some hon. Members said that it was not within practical politics, was that the State should confine itself to, and pay for, that teaching which was the basis of every religion and allow each denomination to come in and teach its own particular tenets at its own cost. If the person who carried out the denominational teaching was a teacher in the school, so much the better, for it would have a greater effect upon the children. Depend upon it, that was the only real solution of the education problem; it was a solution which must come sooner or later, and the sooner it came the better.

said the House would congratulate itself on the very fair spirit of compromise which appeared to prevail on all sides. There was an evident desire shown by hon. Members in all parts that this present strife, this religious bitterness, this sectarian spirit which appeared to have done so much harm to the cause of education, should, if possible, be brought to an end. He claimed for himself that during the discussion on the Act of 1902, he always held that some compromise, rather different to that decided upon, should have been arrived at to remove the grievances, real or imaginary, of people who did not see eye to eye with Churchmen in this question. He believed most hon. Members were anxious to bring about this result. But surely there was one condition that ought to precede any alteration of the law, and this was that the law as it at present stood ought to be administered. He was emphatically for a compromise; hue he did say it was the plain duty of the Government and of public authorities like the county councils to administer the Act as a condition precedent to any alteration of the law. What was the position of affairs now? The Motion brought forward at the instance of the hon. Member for Carnarvon represented the case of the Welsh county councils, but he contended that the Welsh county councils' refusal to administer the Act had involved enormous hardships on the children of Wales. Whether the Act was suitable for Wales or not, their first duty was to administer it. But what were the special grievances brought forward by the hon. Member for Carnarvon? When they considered what he said, they amounted to a very little— viz., that certain draft Orders had been issued which inflicted a hardship in cases where Nonconformists had subscribed, along with Churchmen, to the building of certain schools. But these were only draft Orders; they had not yet I the force of law; the Board of Education was considering them; they were not in operation, and, therefore, the grievance brought forward was an exceedingly small one, and one which did not justify the action of the county councils in refusing to administer the Act altogether. The hon. Member for Carnarvon gave a long list of grievances in connection with Wales, and he did not deny that there might be grievances; but the hon. Member went on to tell them; that the county councils wished to act in the broadest spirit and that they were acting in a spirit of religious equality. What, however, was the state of affairs in one of the boroughs which the hon. Member himself represented? Were they exhibiting an example of the spirit of religious equality in the borough of Pwllheli? There were two schools, a national school and a Board school. In connection with the Board school all the teachers and all the officials were Nonconformist, though Church people paid at least half of the rates.

said he would come to that presently. In the Board school the headmaster of the boys' section, the headmistress of the girls' department, the county clerk of education, the attendance officer, the assistant teachers, the pupil teachers, and the school cleaner, all were Calvinistic Methodists. This was the spirit of religious equality in which hon. Members opposite acted when they got a majority in the council. In the case of the Church school there were no less than three pupil teachers who were Nonconformists; and he ventured to say that the spirit of religious equality was much more manifest in the persecuted Church school than in the schools conducted as hon. Members opposite would desire to see them. When the Act came into force the local authority for that district was careful to appoint six managers to the Board school, every one of whom was a Nonconformist, and the majority of whom were Calvinistic Methodists. He had put this case forward to show there were grievances on both sides. He fully admitted there were difficulties in Wales. There was, he granted, a Nonconformist majority there, and where there was only one school and that Church of England, even with the conscience clause, there was, he admitted, the appearance of a grievance. But what ought to be done. The hon. Member had spoken about the Bishop of St. Asaph's compromise. He knew a good deal about that compromise. For his part he supported a compromise on those lines, but what was the real reason why it broke down? It was that under the existing state of the law no compromise would have been valid and might have been repudiated afterwards.

That is not quite fair. It is not a case of trusting an individual's word. You have to trust an elective body. Under the compromise the Church would have handed over her schools, a new council might have been elected, and there could have been no charge of bad faith against these successors. No public authority can bind its successors, and they might have gone back from what was a purely private arrangement, and then the Church would have been in the position of having parted with her schools and of having no possible means of getting them back.

There was to have been a short period at the termination of which, if they had found that the compromise did not work, they would have got their schools back.

said that under the compromise the Church would have handed the schools over.

But you cannot make them provide schools for three years. Where is the power in the Act to do it? If there was a power to lease the schools temporarily, I agree, but the leaders of the Church were advised that it could not be done, and that they ran the risk of losing their schools altogether. The general opinion was that in the case of schools provided by Church people for Church objects they had no right to run that risk, and, therefore, in the present state of the law, even if the compromise were desirable, they could not to do it. Continuing, the hon. Member said they knew that a spirit of compromise was in the air, and he looked forward to some new Education Bill which might relieve their difficulties. He did not think they had quite arrived at that compromise yet. For his part he would never accept any compromise unless definite denominational teaching were given in school hours and not out of school hours; but they were going on lines which he hoped would lead to some such arrangement; and by degrees they might understand each other better. He appealed to hon. Members opposite—granting that compromise might come—whether it was not their duty to administer the law while it lasted. He was not referring to passive resisters. An individual might like to break the law, though, in his opinion, they did so largely for political reasons, but they were not concerned with individuals. It was a far more serious thing for great local authorities to deliberately set their faces against carrying out the law, or, at all events, to say they would not carry out the law except under conditions not within and never contemplated by the Act. It was their duty to see that the law was carried out, and, while this was being done, they might endeavour to come to some better system. He would support any compromise which met the religious difficulties of others without placing disabilities upon any other sect or community.

expressed the opinion that what was now being fought was the claim of the clergy to control elementary education, thus continuing the controversy which was begun with the Act of Uniformity. Education had so long been the monopoly of the Church of England that she was naturally reluctant to give up control, but she must now realise that the time had come when the control must be relinquished. The clergy regarded the denominational schools as their own private property, but that was an entire mistake; they were merely trustees. They held the schools for the purpose of giving education, and education was now a public trust, and if Parliament had the power to direct what should be done with public trust property, the trustees were under no obligation any longer to regard their responsibilities under the trust deed, and the handing over of the schools to the public authority was nothing more than the execution of their duty. He would be no party to any compromise upon the subject of public control, and on the subject of religious tests the Nonconformists could not give way. The imposition of religious tests either engendered and encouraged hypocrisy or tended to drive out of the teaching profession those best fitted for it. He was opposed to the counsel of despair which counselled either strict denominationalism or purely secular teaching. He could not regard the teaching of religious facts as they presented themselves in the New Testament as denominational teaching. And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House. Committee report Progress; to sit again this evening.

Evening Sitting

Supply 3Rd Allotted Day

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

Civil Services And Revenue Departments Estimates 1904–5 (Vote On Account)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £21,500,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charges for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1905, viz.:—

Civil Services

CLASS IV.
£
Board of Education7,000,000

CLASS I.
£
Royal Palaces and Marlborough House26,000
Osborne10,000
Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens35,000
Houses of Parliament Buildings16,000
Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain30,000
Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain15,000
Diplomatic and Consular Buildings20,000
Revenue Buildings160,000
Public Buildings, Great Britain160,000
Surveys of the United Kingdom90,000
Harbours under the Board of Trade10,000
Peterhead Harbour10,000
Rates on Government Property260,000
Public Works and Buildings, Ireland110,000
Railways, Ireland60,000

CLASS II.
United Kingdom and England:—
£
House of Lords Offices6,000
House of Commons Offices12,000
Treasury and Subordinate Departments40,000
Home Office60,000
Foreign Office30,000
Colonial Office25,000
Privy Council Office, etc.4,000
Board of Trade75,000
Mercantile Marine Services30,000
Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade3
Board of Agriculture65,000
Charity Commission15,000
Civil Service Commission18,000
Exchequer and Audit Department25,000

£
Friendly Societies Registry3,000
Local Government Board85,000
Lunacy Commission5,000
Mint (including Coinage)5
National Debt Office6,000
Public Record Office10,000
Public Works Loan Commission5
Registrar General's Office18,000
Stationery and Printing340,000
Woods, Forests, etc., Office of8,000
Works and Public Buildings, Office of30,000
Secret Service40,000
Scotland:—
Secretary for Scotland25,000
Fishery Board8,000
Lunacy Commission3,000
Registrar General's Office2,000
Local Government Board5,000
Ireland:—
Lord-Lieutenant's Household2,000
Chief Secretary for Ireland12,000
Department of Agriculture80,000
Charitable Donations and Bequests Office1,000
Local Government Board25,000
Public Record Office2,000
Public Works Office18,000
Registrar General's Office6,000
Valuation and Boundary Survey7,000

CLASS III.
United Kingdom and England:—
£
Law Charges45,000
Miscellaneous Legal Expenses28,000
Supreme Court of Judicature140,000
Land Registry18,000
County Courts4,000
Police, England and Wales17,000
Prisons, England and the Colonies360,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain140,000
Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum14,000
Scotland:—
Law Charges and Courts of Law30,000
Register House, Edinburgh15,000

£
Crofters Commission, Scotland2,000
Prisons, Scotland38,000
Ireland:—
Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions32,000
Supreme Court of Judicature, and other Legal Departments43,000
Land Commission55,000
County Court Officers, etc.45,000
Dublin Metropolitan Police60,000
Royal Irish Constabulary600,000
Prisons, Ireland50,000
Reformatory and Industrial Schools55,000
Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum3,000

CLASS IV.
United Kingdom and England:—
£
British Museum80,000
National Gallery10,000
National Portrait Gallery3,000
Wallace Collection3,000
Scientific Investigation, &c. United Kingdom22,000
Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales48,000
Scotland:—
Public Education750,000
National Gallery5,000
Ireland:—
Public Education760,000
Endowed Schools Commissioners400
National Gallery2,500
Queen's Colleges2,500

CLASS V.
£
Diplomatic and Consular Services250,000
Uganda and East Africa Protectorates, and Uganda Railway300,000
Colonial Services340,000
Telegraph Subsidies and Pacific Cable35,000

CLASS VI.
£
Superannuation and Retired Allowances300,000
Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, etc.2,000
Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances1,000
Hospitals and Charities, Ireland17,000

CLASS VII.
£
Temporary Commissions25,000
Miscellaneous Expenses17,587
Repayments to the Local Loans Fund
St. Louis Exhibition, 190460,000
Ireland Development Grant184,000
Total for Civil Services£14,170,000

REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
£
Customs350,000
Inland Revenue830,000
Post Office3,800,000
Post Office Packet Service250,000
Post Office Telegraphs2,100,000
Total for Revenue Departments£7,330,000
Grand Total£21,500,000

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, Item, Class 4 (Board of Education), be reduced by £500."—( Mr. Lloyd-George.)

continuing his speech, said that some appeals had been made to the Welsh county councils to abstain from the policy which they had adopted, but no expectations had been held out that if they did the Act would be amended, although it was admitted by all that it required amendment in the two vital principles, public control and the abolition of religious tests. It had been said that the Act did not impose new religious tests. That was true, but the Act had made every school a public school, and had placed the whole charges of the maintenance of the schools on the public funds, and therefore for the first time imposed a religious test on public servants. That was one of the things about which they complained. The only other point was that of religious facilities. It was common ground that facilities should be given in all schools for religious teaching. If denominational teaching was to be given at the cost of the State that was a solution of the difficulty for which Wales was not ripe, and therefore the only alternative was that the cost of the denominational teaching must be borne by the various denominations. He felt confident that if each side would trust more to the good faith of the other, a settlement could easily be arrived at, as to the time at which such teaching should be given in the schools. If the Government would only take a broad and statesmanlike view of the matter it would not be impossible to amend the rules so as to enable the provided schools to be retransferred to their managers if the arrangement entered into did not work satisfactorily. If the Government, instead of taking a broad and statesmanlike view, continued to try this stupid plan of repression they would still in the end have to give way, and the only question was whether they should now try and make the Act workable by giving Wales what she desired, or be forced to consent after considerable mutual recrimination. The county councils had been charged with using the schools for political purposes but had not the Church party also appealed to politics. Everybody knew the fight was entered into with the utmost alacrity by the Church party in Wales. For his part he did not share in this censure as to the political agitation. He thought, if politics were to be any more than a battle of place and profit, every man ought to take part. But one of the fundamental rules of the political game was that the Party defeated should admit defeat and if in power should carry out the legislation necessary. Purely secular teaching was not within the realm of practical politics, and when he knew the only way in which the Bible could be brought within the reach of our child population he would be loth to take part in any administration which would prevent it. Those who advocated purely secular teaching rather than denominational teaching were doing a very dangerous thing and should consider well before they adopted a plan which might result in the total exclusion of the Bible from the schools.

said there was no question on which he would like less to come into conflict with his Welsh friends than this. They in Wales had worked together and he had always been glad to back up Welsh ideas in national and educational questions. For many years they had been successful in keeping away what was called the religious difficulty and had managed to carry on their great University and the University Colleges without friction. The Church party had been much abused for the action they had felt it their duty to take with regard to what was called the concordat of the Bishop of St. Asaph, but he was present at the whole of the meetings, which were conducted with great urbanity and courtesy, at which, however, though principles were discussed, no decision was arrived at. In those days the hon. Member for Carnarvon was very friendly with the Bishop of St. Asaph and thought that he had captured him. The Bishop of St. Asaph, on the other hand, thought that he had captured the hon. Member. However that might be, the Bishop's position throughout the discussions was one of great moderation and his earnest desire was to promote a reasonable settlement of the difficulty. The concordat, however, broke down on what was called the Cowper-Temple Clause, which prohibited doctrinal teaching being given in provided schools in school hours. The hon. Member for Carnarvon on that point was asked whether he would give facilities for teaching dogmatic religion to the children in school hours, but the answer given was a diplomatic one, that he believed it was not possible under the law, but he would try and persuade his colleagues to take that course. It was on that that the negotiations broke down. The Church party had conceded the point that the teachers should be appointed by a joint body containing representatives of the county council and the diocesan conference, but they insisted that they must have adequate facilities for teaching the children in the schools, and not outside, and in school hours. But hon. Gentlemen opposite really conceded nothing. The schools were the property of the Church party which had built them and maintained them to a large j extent, and on every principle of fight and justice they ought to have facilities given to them to teach the children in their own tenets.

said the Nonconformists gave a guarantee for general religious teaching in the non-provided schools, and were also prepared to give facilities for religious teaching in the board schools so long as that teaching was given technically outside school hours, surely that was something.

regretted he could not quite follow the hon. Gentleman. He then quoted a letter written by the Bishop of St. Asaph, which he said meant that no facilities that could be offered to the Church party could be secured without the abrogation of the Cowper-Temple Clause, and, as the hon. Member for Carnarvon had stated, since he never dreamt for a moment of assenting to any arrangement which would have abrogated that clause. That was the whole history of the concordat in North Wales. He was free to confess he had gone to the conference with some reluctance. He did not think in the present temper of the people it was possible, in Wales, to arrive at any concordat which would be satisfactory to the Church and Nonconformists alike, but he hoped at no j distant day, when the turmoil and hubbub was abated, it might be possible to arrive at some solution of this difficulty, which was really a very small: part of the general education question. If the Church party were prepared to give so much, and the hon. Member was willing to go so far, in order to promote a fair and reasonable compromise, he did not despair of arriving ere long at a satisfactory arrangement. He congratulated the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs on his return from his triumphal progress through the Principality. The hon. Member could stand on one of the mountains in his native land and survey the whole of the county councils at his feet. As to Jupiter of old they bowed themselves to his nod. He admired the abilities and the invective of his hon. friend. They were one of the assets of that House. But was it really worth all the invective, all the trouble, all the motor-car journeys, merely to deprive the children in the schools of warmth and gas and a few elementary reading books? Supposing the scale of political fortune turned tomorrow and the hon. Member found himself where his abilities and talents entitled him to be would he still advocate a "no rate" policy on the part of the county councils of Wales? It would then be the hon. Member's duty to maintain the law, pending any alteration he might persuade his colleagues to make, and he would find some difficulty in adapting his present position with the really comfortable scat on the Treasury Bench. There was not much heard about passive resisters in Wales; they were to a large extent obviated by the policy of the hon. Gentleman opposite. He only knew of one whom he saw before him, the hon. Member for Carmarthen. But there was more in these violent attacks on Churchmen, in the matter of the schools, than appeared on the surface. There was the latent idea that the present agitation would tend to the disestablishment of the Church in Wales by rendering her unpopular and making her responsible for the gathering of the rate. The present movement was only a step towards the greater and more acute controversy. The hon. Gentleman had doubtless secured for the present the support of the county councils, but throughout the Principality there were large numbers of Nonconformists who regarded this policy of illegality with dislike and even aversion. It might be that before long that feeling would gather strength, and then the action of the county councils would be as gall and wormwood to the hon. Gentleman and his friends. There was, at any rate, only one course open to those who believed that the sine qua non of education, in the interests of the children themselves, was a sound religious training—not undenominational, but dogmatic. This being so how could they do otherwise than separate themselves from hon. Gentlemen opposite. They would fight on until it was no longer possible to struggle, and they had to surrender to force. He congratulated the Government on having taken, some what tardily, after some hesitation, a line worthy of them in this matter. Without giving unnecessary offence, and in studiously moderate language, the hon. Baronet had shown that he believed it to be his duty to see that the law was carried out. That was the only consistent course open to the Government, and, if the present powers were not sufficient to enable them to pursue it, they must ask the House for further powers. He had never been a special lover of the Act in some respects, but he believed that, with all its defects, it would prove to be a great, judicious, and honourable landmark in the history of education.

after craving the indulgence of the House on this the first occasion on which he had presumed to address it, said he would not have risen but for his sincere desire to contribute if possible to the peaceful and lasting settlement of this vexed and vexing question. He thought that he might without presumption claim to occupy a position which peculiarly fitted him to speak as to the attitude of the people of the country with regard to the administration of the Education Act. He had carefully watched its working, and in the recent election in which it had been his privilege to take part the education question loomed very large before the electorate; consequently he felt that he could not allow the present occasion to pass without neglecting the duty imposed upon him by his constituents. There existed amongst the people the gravest anxiety as to the principles involved in the Act, the most serious apprehension as to its method of working, and already the most sincere dissatisfaction as to its effects in practice. The hon. Baronet had said it was very difficult to distinguish between popular objection and organised obstruction. If he had been in the recent fray in Mid-Hertfordshire he would have found no difficulty in drawing the distinction. There was no organised obstruction to the Education Act; it was a spontaneous agitation arising from the fact that the conscience of the people had been aroused and stirred. The main objections to the Act were, in the case of the non-provided schools, that the whole cost of elementary education was now thrown upon public funds, whilst the effective control remained in sectarian hands; and, in the case of the provided schools, that the directly elected boards had been replaced by an appointed committee not directly responsible to any electorate. The foundation managers presumed upon their position because it had been legalised, and in some cases they overrode in the most shameless manner the locally appointed representatives. The new system afforded the gravest opportunities for the exercise of clerical influence, even in the provided schools which formerly were unsectarian. Popularly elected, though small, School Boards had given place to boards of managers appointed by the distant county council, the great majority of whose members were Anglicans. The constitution of the county education committees themselves gave great dissatisfaction. To a large extent they had been chosen from outside the county councils. Secondary election was bad in principle; it was of the essence of popular control that those who controlled the public funds should be liable to dismissal by those whom they represented and whose money they spent, and in no matter was this more essential than in education. In Hertfordshire more than one-third of the education committee had been selected from outside the council; thirty-five of the fifty-one members were Anglicans, two were Roman Catholics, and only fourteen were Nonconformists, although quite one-half of the scholars in the schools were Nonconformist children. With regard to the constitution of the boards of managers, a similar state of things existed in Hertfordshire as in Carnarvon. Out of 170 schemes relating to Hertfordshire, 148 contained the provision that the four foundation managers must be members of the Establised Church, and this though the whole cost was now thrown upon public funds. In one case the rector, the two churchwardens, and the rector's curate were the four foundation managers; the County Council representative was an Anglican, and the representative elected by the parish council was the local Nonconformist minister, whose election was apparently resented by the rector as an insult to himself. To call that representative management was a farce. The people's representative was in a helpless minority of one; he was brow-beaten by the rector on every possible occasion; and when it came to the appointment of a correspondent for the school the rector appointed his own butler, at a salary of £10 a year, although the parish representative offered to do the work for nothing. In the school itself, even before the Act came into operation, there had been serious difficulties. The assistant master asked to be relieved of the office of organist in the church, which he held at a salary of £30 a year, and he was thereupon dismissed from the school, being told by the rector that the two offices went together. In St. Albans before the Act a Progressive School Board existed. Notwithstanding the strenuous opposition of the citizens, the city council last year decided to hand over the work of the board to the county council. The municipal elections in November turned upon the question, and for the first time in the history of St. Albans four Progressives were returned at the head of the poll for the four vacant places, as a protest against the action of the city council. Of the twelve managers of the provided schools in St. Albans, of whom eight were appointed by the county council, and four by the city council, seven were members of the Anglican Church and five were Nonconformists. This being the body which had taken the place of the Progressive School Board, could it be wondered at that the people of St. Albans resented the interference with the method by which they had managed their provided schools in the past? It was no matter of surprise that wide-spread dissatisfaction existed and passive resisters were to be found in that city. The people of England were now realising how cunningly and with what subtlety the Act of Parliament was framed, how ingeniously and disingenuously it was contrived. It gave the semblance of popular control while the reality was absolutely denied. County councils could not effectively do the additional work imposed upon them. The divorce of taxation from representation and the permission to impose sectarian tests upon teachers whose salaries were paid by the State had revolted the conscience not only of Nonconformists, but of the majority of patriotic citizens belonging to all churches. He had found that farmers and others who had hitherto taken little part in national affairs had been aroused to indignation by the Act, and hon. Members opposite, when they came to face their constituents, would find that that was a fact with which they would have to deal. Conscience had been sneered at in this matter, but he thought those sneers were very misplaced. Was not conscience recognised as the religious authority in Protestant England as opposed to the authority of the Church in countries under the Roman communion? The solemn language so slightingly referred to by the hon. Baronet was the expression of a deep religious conviction, which no pressure, coercion, or jibes, would ever eradicate. The clerical party would find that the movement they had inaugurated would end in their own discomfiture; they had grasped after entire public support, and sooner or later they would have to submit to entire public control. Why should not all Parties in the House combine to establish a great homogeneous national system of educasion, whose first and only care should be the interests of the children? Why should they not remove all occasions for the unseemly strife which had arisen, and do all they could to quench the fires of religious persecution and bitterness which had been enkindled? Let them trust the people, who, after all, were the parents of the children in the schools, and let them not force particular theological tenets as elements of animosity into the elementary schools, which, it should never be forgotten, were really the nurseries of the nation.

said he observed that while they were often told that the main ground of the grievance of hon. Gentlemen opposite was the absence of popular control over elementary schools, the hon. Member opposite had found that element of popular control very strong, and had complained with great bitterness of the fact that the Hertfordshire County Council was composed mostly of members of the Church of England. He was amused to hear that, because the county council had appointed seven members of the Church of England to five Nonconformists, in substitution for a Progressive majority on the School Board, no one could be surprised that there were passive resisters. That was the consequence of the hon. Member's argument, and so they were to have passive resistance, not only whenever the foundation managers were in a majority and exercised the rights given them under the statute, but even in cases where the popular representatives controlled the provided schools. He had never had a strong objection to passive resisters. They were an interesting illustration of the right of the subject to rebel; but if principles of this kind were to be accepted, they ought to be applied on many other occasions. The cases of grievance which the hon. Member for Carnarvon had brought forward were all of the kind which he had always admitted—the grievance of the single school district. That grievance constituted a very hard case, but it was no remedy for it to substitute a Nonconformist for a Church majority in the management of the school. He must pass over those cases alleged by the hon. Member where Nonconformists had subscribed to schools without knowing that they were to be Church schools. Unless the parson had made a false declaration, the subscribers must have known. If the hon. Member could prove that—

Then it was nothing against the Education Act, however strong a case for action under the Church Discipline Act. The only way to meet the single school difficulty was to provide for the religious convictions of all the inhabitants of the district, and they must meet the conscientious, scruples of all sections of the community. The hon. Member opposite debated at some length the action of the county councils in Wales, and this question had been dealt with so elaborately that he would only touch very briefly upon it. The hon. Member for Carnarvon had played in Wales the part of what was called a missionary. The missionary was becoming quite a feature of modern politics. The hon. Member was the missionary of passive resistance. The function of a missionary was to induce constituencies to bully their representatives, and the hon. Member opposite hid been more successful than another person, for he found more amenable constituencies and more plastic representatives. There was no one corresponding to the Unionist free-fooders in the Carnarvonshire County Council. Perhaps things would have been different if there had been. But it was a fact, at any rate, that the local education committee rejected the hon. Member's view, and he believed that the chairman, who was a Nonconformist minister, strongly attacked the hon. Member opposite for his views. Nevertheless, the hon. Gentleman persisted in his agitation. He remembered that when he once suggested that the Welsh county councils might not treat the Church schools fairly he was indignantly assured that the Welsh people were the most law-abiding in the world. That was before the hon. Member undertook his mission. Since then the character of Carnarvon had gone down steadily. Now they took another view, and were prepared to starve the schools. He sympathised deeply with the hon. Member's grievance in regard to single school areas. The hon. Member said that there were many Nonconformist schoolrooms that could be used, but that were not used because of the reluctance to divide the children into sects. He thought that the hon. Member overlooked the fact that the division was made once for all when Nonconformity was established. No doubt it was true that schism was a great evil. It would be much better if they could all be of one mind, and if all the children went to one place of worship on Sunday; it would be better for the community and better for the religious life of the country. But the Nonconformists had deliberately chosen the other alternative, and they had separated from the single unity which once existed. If there was to be a distinction drawn they should endeavour to make their educational system conform to their religious system. The hon. Member said that it would be perfectly easy to draw this distinction.

said this was a question of conscience, and surely the case was an overwhelming one. By his argument the hon. Member really gave away the whole ground of passive resistance which he had placed before the Committee. They had always been told that it was a religious scruple. It was not a religious scruple at all; it was a doctrine of social unity, a political theory, not a religious doctrine. It seemed to him that this destroyed the grievance whether they could find a school building suitable for use under Section 10 of the Act. He disapproved strongly of the attitude of uncompromising resistance to the existing Act, but he did not disapprove on the ground that the law was always to be obeyed. He thought it was legitimate to say that there were grievances which justified disobedience to the law, but they must establish a very good case, otherwise they might return to a state of anarchy. It was sometimes forgotten that the exact business of the Executive Government was to insist on the observance of the law. If Parliament made an alteration, that was another question; but as long as the law existed the Government should require its observance. Resistance to the Education Act was in the nature of an act of war, and as long as war continued there was no use in waging it in a half-hearted way. They must press their views to the utmost of their ability, but this fact should not prevent them from welcoming pacification on equitable terms, in bringing to an understanding all the different conflicting religious elements on an elastic and fair basis. The House had been told that the matter might have been settled by the acceptance of the St. Asaph compromise. He was not able to accept the view that facilities outside school hours were satisfactory in any degree. First of all there was the practical inconvenience that children might be kept away. There was another argument that had not received sufficient attention. All these suggestions involved the idea that Churchmen were to accept the proposition that undenominational religious teaching had the same claim on the State as denominational. He could understand people saying that the State should have nothing to do with religion at all. He could understand the State saying that it ought to do its best to meet the desires of all sorts of religious beliefs; but he could not understand any one maintaining that the State should create a new established religion, that it should create a new Established Church of the realm in respect of education, and favour the suggestion that undenominational teaching was a better and more necessary thing, and that the rest was a sort of spiritual luxury which those who were fastidious might insist upon. Anything which raised in any way the presumption that they should prefer undenominational to denominational teaching ought never to be accepted, and he hoped never would be accepted, by the House. He thought the hon. Member for Carnarvon had used language in the past which did suggest some suspicion as to the way his proposal would work In a speech delivered on 22nd January, 1903, the hon. Member argued that the school time-table should be arranged so that religious instruction might follow at the close of the school session and that those children desiring religious instruction should return and those who did not should continue to play. He thought that all the suggestions made by the hon. Member and his friends were devices to change for the worse the existing division between undenominational and denominational religion. There was a great difference between the point of view of Churchmen and Nonconformists in one respect. Nonconformists of undoubted convictions evidently attached more importance to the machinery of education than the Churchmen did. Churchmen, on their side, cared nothing for the machinery so that they should be assured of the result. They cared for the management of the school and the appointment of the head teacher, because these things enabled them to secure that the religious teaching should be of a particular character, and that the children should benefit by it. So far as he could judge, no machinery had yet been suggested which would afford to Churchmen and Roman Catholics an equal security for good religious teaching as the machinery that at present exists in non-provided or voluntary schools. This was not a Church of England question only. He should deprecate in the strongest way their separating in any degree their fortunes from their Roman Catholic friends, who had stood by them so loyally and so long. No settlement ought to be accepted by either party which was not satisfactory to both. Subject to that, he thought that on the lines his right hon. friend laid down there was a prospect of a settlement which might be not unacceptable to all parties. They had the power of appointing the teachers and he did not think that was an unreasonable provision. The teachers existed for the sake of the children, and if they wanted to teach the children a particular religion they must exact a certain religious standard. They must exact a certain standard of religious belief, or otherwise religious teaching would become a mockery. Supposing they could adopt the system which he indicated in the Amendment which he proposed when the Bill was in Committee, supposing they allowed every local authority to teach any religious system they liked, supposing the parents expressed a wish for the religious system they preferred, and supposing they threw the duty on the local authority to carry out their wishes so far as it was practicable, he believed they would have gone a long way towards solving the problem. He did not believe local authorities would be unwilling to work such a system. It was worked in Germany and in the industrial schools of this country. The truth was the practical difficulties were grossly exaggerated. He knew what was in the minds of some hon. Gentlemen. They were afraid the system would be used for the benefit of a particular section of the Church of England, whom they regarded with great suspicion. They thought it was part of an elaborate propaganda by which it was desired to capture the children for the extreme High Church section. Surely, hon. Gentlemen mistook the signs of the times. There was a High Church movement, and a great many people whose zeal led them beyond the limits of discretion did injudicious things. The really formidable movement was a very different one. The real danger to be apprehended was from another quarter. The whole fabric of Christianity was in peril. He saw in every city and in every town growing indifference to religion. Public worship was notoriously much more neglected than it had been, and not only neglected, but where it was attended it was made as agreeable as possible in order that it might not be neglected. People attended church or chapel more for the music or the preacher than for worship. The whole Christian system seemed to be passing from the region of certainty into the region of doubt. People were not quite sure whether Christianity were true or not.

said that no religion which had arrived at that point could long survive as an active force. The danger which he feared was not to the theological system, but to the moral system, for when religion was gone morality would go with it. Was not that a state of things which the Nonconformist as well as the Anglican and the Roman should try to avert? Those who thought that that was a pessimistic view he would ask whether in 1504 a break with the See of Rome, or in 1750 a revolution in France, seemed more probable than a break with Christianity appeared to-day. Great movements came in that fashion. They were latent for years, then suddenly they burst forth, producing lasting effects. Therefore his appeal was not so much in the interest of the Church as in the interest of Christianity. He wished to give to Nonconformists all the protection against proselytism in the schools which their ingenuity could devise. Indeed, no one desired to use the national schools of the country to convert children from one religion to another. All he desired was to make each child as good a Christian of his father's denomination as was possible. He agreed that the springs of human conviction lay beyond the schools to a great extent; but still in the schools much good might be done for Christianity. Even if they could influence one child in that direction it was worth doing. The enemy outside was more to be dreaded than the opponent within. The differences which divided the extreme Nonconformist from the extreme Roman Catholic were trivial compared with the differences which separated the Christian from the non-Christian. He asked them to approach the question of education from that point of view, and to make the schools of the country the citadel of Christianity.

said the noble Lord's speech was both amusing and suggestive. He noticed three admissions in the speech which seemed to him very valuable not only to this side, but to all parts of the House. He admitted that the Act needed amendment; and he was good enough to admit that the single-school district constituted a grievance for the Nonconformists, and that that grievance, if it were serious, justified resistance to the law. Their argument was that it was a serious grievance. He was, therefore, pleased to hear the noble Lord say emphatically that there might be justification for what used to be called the sacred right of insurrection. Lastly, the noble Lord expressed the hope that, on the lines indicated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University, some settlement might be arrived at. The noble Lord deplored the conditions which in Christian life were due to differences of belief. He ought to deplore them all the more, because it was a clear and palpable aggravation of these conditions if they began with children at the very first step, and taught them to regard one another with aversion. The noble Lord's argument appeared to be that things were bad and that it did not matter if they made them worse. It was not, as the noble Lord seemed to think, entirely a question of expense. It was a question of the worth of the education to be given. To set up two or three small schools in an area where there were only 100 or 150 children would be to make them absolutely useless—he meant by that, to make them ineffective—because they would not have the apparatus and the teaching which would enable them to do what was wanted for the children. That suggestion was really inadmissible. What was called undenominational religion consisted in matters on which all Protestant denominations were agreed in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred. It was in the rural districts where the difficulty chiefly arose, and there the Catholics were a small portion of the population. It was in the large towns where the difficulty with the Catholics arose. Therefore, the noble Lord must pardon him if he did not take him as the exponent of the feeling of the laity of the Church of England, though he recognised that the noble Lord worthily represented one school of thought in the Church. He believed himself that the general feeling of the laity was in favour of undenominational instruction, as was shown by the large support they had given to School Boards. As to the latter part of the noble Lord's, speech, with the earnestness of which all who heard it must be impressed, he agreed both with his diagnosis of the age in which we lived and in the regret he had expressed at the tendency which was manifesting itself; but he differed from the noble Lord with regard to the remedy he proposed. It must not be supposed, however, that he regarded the tendency of which the noble Lord had spoken as a permanency. He saw no reason to entertain any grave alarm. That tendency might last for a generation or two and then disappear, as similar tendencies had done before. The noble Lord seemed to think that this tendency, which was in a certain sense a world movement, could be arrested by the simple expedient of giving children denominational teaching in the schools.

said that if the noble Lord would look at what had been done by education in the forming of opinion where the applicances were more effective and universal than in England, he would have reason to reconsider his opinion. In Protestant Germany the children got Protestant instruction. Had that made them as devoted to Christianity as were the children of the Protestant United States, where no denominational instruction was given? The sectarian teaching on which the noble Lord laid so much stress, related to points which did not incorporate themselves in the child's life, and which were not guides to its moral conduct because in a great majority of cases the child did not understand them at all. He agreed that a school ought to implant moral lessons in the mind of the child; but that was not to be done by the denominational part of the teaching, but by that part which belonged to the essence and foundation of Christianity. They had had a debate which had dealt partly with the resistance of the Welsh county councils and partly with the merits, or demerits, of the Act of 1902. He ventured to say that his hon. friend the Member for Carnarvon had made his case in a very moderate and temperate way, and his contention was that, in such circumstances as the Board of Education found in Wales, they ought to act with caution and conciliation. Wales had a right to bring the matter forward, because its case was a peculiar one, the vast majority of the people—probably three-fourths, or even a larger proportion in many parts — being Nonconformists. Could any one say that the Act of 1902 would have been passed for Wales if it had not been that it was being passed for England? Was it not a little hard that Wales, which was a country, for ecclesiastical purposes, so unlike England, should have to suffer merely because the Government of the day thought the Act a good thing for England? The Secretary to the Board of Education had ascribed what had passed in Wales to the agitation of the Welsh Members. It was not the Welsh Members who had roused Wales. They only went to Wales because Wales was roused. The inflammable material was there and took fire of itself. Feelings of the same sort were rampant in Yorkshire. It had been seriously discussed in the West Riding whether or not the Act should be set in force. An agitation could never be got up unless there was material on which it could work. This was true about the passive resistance movement, which had been in an eminent degree a movement springing from the rank and file. It was the people, too, who had usually been very languid in their political opinions who had been stirred by this question. They were a class who had been amongst the most law-abiding, quiet, steady-going citizens of this country. What had impressed them had been, first, the idea that this was an Act which had put a strain on their consciences, and in the second place the belief that it had not moral authority because it was an Act which had not been properly passed. [An HON. MEMBER: No.] He was telling the Committee what was their view. It might be wrong. They thought that the Act was not submitted to the people in the way Acts usually were. They said that the Act had not the stamp of popular approval on it. He did not recollect any Act which had been passed, rightly or wrongly, which had carried so little moral authority as this Act had done. If the Secretary to the Board of Education did not know the feeling about the Act, which was entertained even in his own Party, he stood alone in that ignorance. It was impossible to go about England without knowing that a more unpopular Act had seldom appeared in the Statute-book. Its first result had been to produce confusion in the county councils, who had found suddenly imposed upon them a mass of work with which they were unable to grapple. The Act had involved them in an enormous increase of expenditure. The managers, not being the servants of the councils, were not trusted with so much work as they had been, and were disappointed in consequence. It was said that not only in Wales, but also in the South of England, the Board of Education were making Orders for the creation of Church of England managers where there was nothing in the trust deed to justify this.

said this was the converse of the complaint made by the hon. Member for Carnarvon. The Board of Education had, in fact, endeavoured to carry out the existing practice and usage.

said it was difficult to discuss this matter without having a concrete case before them. He would like to know what length of time would justify the Board of Education in making a school sectarian which had not been sectarian by foundation.

said that in each case they must go on the merits. The Board of Education had to consider the settled usage and practice of the schools.

said he was informed that protests had been received by the Board of Education from local authorities against their Orders, and perhaps if he put a Question on the subject, the hon. Gentleman would be able to tell him how many protests had been received. There was another difficulty about the managers which he thought ought to be mentioned. Transfers were being made. Was it required in all cases that transfers should be made without the reserve of any rent to the persons who had the freehold of the school? It was very import ant to bearin mind, when terms were to be given to schools in private ownership, that in many cases such schools were not private schools in the ordinary sense of the term, but charities. He should like to know to what extent the new schools which were being provided were provided by the local authorities and by the organisations.

said he was sorry he had not heard the hon. Gentleman's explanation. Among other difficulties that had arisen in the working of the Act were those in relation to the terms of transfer, the use of school buildings out of school hours, the refusal of managers, to put the buildings in a proper state of repair for such use, and the use of school buildings for infants, boys or girls, according to the needs of the locality. He, was informed that there had been cases in which the managers, by insisting upon keeping up the school in a particular way, had obliged the local authority to incur the cost of providing another school. That was one of the cases which inflicted the country with a great deal of unnecessary expense. Another difficulty had arisen in connection with the appointment of teachers. He was told that the National Society had circulated a form of agreement for the appointment of teachers in voluntary schools and which it requested managers to use for all teachers. The terms of that agreement pledged the teachers to give religious instruction according to a syllabus or scheme to be approved of by the society from time to time. The local authorities denied altogether the right of the managers to submit such a scheme or syllabus to the teachers, and they contended that they had a right to demand that no embarrassing conditions should be attached by the managers to the engagement of teachers; that those conditions which the National Society desired to see imposed were improper conditions, and ultra vires of the managers. Was that so, and if so, what was the attitude of the Board of Education to it? Had the Board come to a decision on the point, and what was that decision? If the hon. Baronet desired time to consider the matter, good and well; but he did not wish to lose that opportunity of calling the attention of the Committee to it, because he was told it had given rise, to a great deal of friction between local authorities and the managers in some parts of the country. Lastly, he desired to ask what was being done, to promote secondary instruction. Secondary instruction was most important at the present moment, and he feared that it would suffer from being associated with elementary instruction owing to the increased cost of elementary education. He was afraid that very little was being done by most county councils for secondary education, and that it was being allowed to fall altogether into the background. That was one of the greatest misfortunes attending the passing of the Act. He hoped the Department would urge the county councils to keep clown expenditure, on elementary education, so far as was consistent with efficiency, in order to have money to spare for secondary instruction. Secondary education, both general and technical, was one of the most important objects local authorities could have in England, and they should be constantly reminded of their duty by the Board of Education. When they were passing this Act, the First Lord of the Treasury had a favourite phrase by which he described it; he always spoke of it as being a great educational reform. Well, they had had some, experience, although not complete, of the working of this great educational reform; and he must say that its chief result had been additional expense, additional confusion, none of that unity of administration which they were promised, and a great exasperation of ecclesiastical controversy, coupled with neglect of the most urgent needs of the country. There had been some consolation in that debate. Everyone, except the Members speaking from the Treasury Bench, had admitted that the Act had been at fault, and required to be reformed. He would not attempt to solve the riddle as to how the religious difficulty involved in the Act could be removed. Everyone had his own scheme. But there was a growing wish, and he regarded this with satisfaction, for an arrangement upon fair lines towards all denominations. They would only get a fair arrangement by admitting popular control. With popular control everything would be easy; without popular control everything would be difficult. He had been very glad to hear the Attorney-General give approval to the compromise suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University. There were moments during the debates on the Act of 1902 when they thought that such a compromise might be accepted; and therefore he could not feel too sanguine that it would now be carried out. But they all wished that Ministers would take the matter to heart at once, and try to bring about, through their influence on their own Party, some pacific arrangement; because it must be clear to everyone that the Act could not stand. He knew that the First Lord of the Treasury thought that the passive resistance movement was quite ridiculous; but it was a fact which the right hon. Gentleman could not deny. He was in the recollection of many hon. Members that the right hon. Gentleman had scouted the passive resistance movement altogether, and did so because he thought it absurd. The right hon. Gentleman was a great dialectician, and nobody had ever admired the First Lord's dialectical powers more than he had done this session, because, unlike, the man in the play who endeavoured to persuade two ladies in separate rooms that each of them swayed his heart, he had endeavoured to persuade the protectionists in the presence of the free-traders that he was a protectionist—[MINISTERIAL cries of "Question"]—and had endeavoured to persuade the free-traders in the presence of the protectionists that he was a free-trader. [Renewed cries of "Question."] Hon. Gentlemen did not seem to like any reference to that; but he was only using it as an illustration, and not necessarily as an argument. With all his dialectical skill, the right hon. Gentleman could not argue facts out of existence. There were the facts—the facts that passive resistance existed, and that the Act was unpopular. He held that if they could see into the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite, it would be found, at this moment, that all agreed that the Act must be amended; and he ventured to predict that whatever Government came into power alter the next general election, they would have to deal with this Act. It was perfectly impossible to allow it to stand as it now stood. Indeed, the, present Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education admitted that he would have to get greater power. The sooner they approached this work the better; and he hoped whoever did approach it would endeavour to give them a truly national and popular system, and would endeavour to set the country free from this ecclesiastical strife in order to make education a really progressive element in the life of the country.

I really should not have supposed that there were two speakers in this House more unlike each other, not only in their opinions, but in their style and methods, than the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down and my noble friend who preceded him. I should have thought that they differed on almost every subject, but that, if there was a subject on which they differed more than any other, it was the subject of education. And yet I observe that neither of them could keep out the fiscal controversy when they were touching upon this apparently alien theme. There is something—in such studies of political economy as I have made I have, never been able to find out in what it consists—but there must be something closely connected between theological and economic controversy which makes it impossible for anyone to take a passionate interest in the one without going rather mad over the other. I do not say where the passion or the madness lies; but, at all events, they both have some intoxicating, and perhaps elevating, effect on the human mind, and when any gentleman passionately interested in the one begins to discourse upon one of these subjects, he seems insensibly drawn off into metaphors and arguments which pertain to the other. It is a psychological fact which I commend to those interested in the currents of opinion which sway this Assembly. The right hon. Gentleman, except in the latter part of his speech, sank very much below my noble friend in the breath of view and in the general treatment of the subject which he laid before the House. The right hon. Gentleman told me in particular, but the House in general, that in his judgment the Education Bill of 1902 was a very unpopular Bill and a very bad Bill. I did not know that it was a very popular Bill. I never brought it in believing that it would be a popular Bill. The Government, of which I was a member, never supposed that it was a Bill which would conciliate universal opinion or arouse great enthusiasm either among those represented by hon. Gentlemen opposite or among the general ratepayers of the country. What we did believe, and what we believe now, is that the time had come when a great educational reform was absolutely necessary, popular or unpopular. The right hon. Gentleman says the Bill is unpopular because it is increasing the rates.

No; I did not say that quite. That is an element also, but it is unpopular for other reasons.

I am alluding to an element of unpopularity to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded. Does the right hon. Gentleman suppose that he could have brought in a Bill which would have done anything whatever for education and in which the ratepayer would have been wholly spared?

My case is that it is the machinery of the Bill—the dual control of the Bill and the complications and unnecessary multiplication of schools—which has greatly added to the expense.

The right hon. Gentleman's panacea for expenditure is machinery, the economy of which would have been to maintain the School Board system universally, notoriously the most costly system this country has ever known, and to buy up at the ratepayers' expense all the voluntary schools of the country. That is the economy of the right hon. Gentleman. And the only mitigation I can see in the financial disaster which would have thereupon ensued arises from the fact that the right hon. Gentleman would have bought up the voluntary schools at much less than their proper value. I venture to submit to the House that in 1902 we honestly approached the great educational problem in no unworthy or sectarian spirit. Hon. Gentlemen may have disliked our particular solution. They may have preferred, I think the right hon. Gentleman does prefer, or would have preferred, a universal system of small School Boards all over the country.

There was that plan; there may have been other plans. We adopted a plan large in its outlines, in conformity with the whole position in this country, and fitting in with our general system of local government. Of course there is some difficulty and some confusion, when you make a transition from the old system to the new, from the unreformed to the reformed system, but I believe it will be found, so far as secular education is concerned, that we have laid broadly and permanently the foundations of that which will hereafter be looked upon as the greatest educational reform this country has ever known. It was unfortunately impossible for us, as it would have been impossible for any Government sitting on this Bench, to deal with the general question of secular education without' touching on the question of religious education, and when people talk of the unpopularity of this Bill, when they talk of the educational friction which this Bill has produced in nine times out of ten, in ninety-nine out of 100, they refer not to the difficulty with regard to secular education, but to the difficulty with regard to religious education. And how, may I ask, could any Ministry, be their political complexion what it may, have avoided that? I see opposite my hon. friend the Member for the London University, who made a most interesting speech this afternoon, a speech which interested me particularly because he is keenly alive to the needs of education, and he is altogether outside these unhappy religious controversies. And yet even my hon. friend could not avoid charging the Government with having unnecessarily stirred up religious feeling, and he measured our iniquities by the amount of the passive resistance which the Bill aroused. Did my hon. friend for a moment reflect how dangerous was the argument he employed? If we are only to measure the sincerity of opponents to any Bill by the amount of illegality [Ironical laughter from the OPPOSITION Benches.]—in any case it is very cheap illegality, because in the history of the world there has never been a less expensive form of martyrdom than the present—if my hon. friend measures the faults of the Bill by the amount of that sort of illegality it arouses, does he not see he puts a great premium upon the same kind of illegality being practised when any change in the Bill is made in the direction which the right hon. Gentleman opposite desires? I do not approve of these methods and I shall not encourage them, but the people who encourage them are those who say, "Look at the dreadful results you have produced; here are Mr. A, Mr. B, and Mr. C, all respectable law-abiding citizens who have all got their rates paid by somebody else! Is it possible that you should still maintain a law which produces this disastrous result?" Well, then another Party conies into office, they carry out the reforms foreshadowed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, and then, instead of Mr. A, Mr. B, and Mr. C, getting their rates paid by somebody else, Mr. X, Mr. Y, and Mr. Z will follow the same ingenious procedure. What then is my hon. friend to do? He will again have to measure the iniquity of the new law by the same standard as that by which he measured the iniquity of the old law; and each successive Government will be impelled to what is called reform the law by the amount of illegal resistance to which that law leads. I think my hon. friend—and I still refer to him because I think him one of the most impartial persons in the House on this subject—if he looks back on the history of this question, will see that you cannot avoid the religious question, and that the Government in dealing with the religious part of this great educational problem have dealt with it in a manner of which the Nonconformists had very little reason to complain. I am aware that I was charged, I think by the right hon. Member for Berwick, with a "perverse ignorance" of the feelings of Nonconformists. That may be so; it is certainly through no want of good will on my part; it may be through want of natural capacity. Certainly neither by training, habit, nor education am I disposed to rate low or to think ill of any sect of Christians because they are non-Episcopal. But I honestly admit that there have been arguments used by Nonconformists in this great controversy which I have never, with the best will in the world, been able thoroughly to understand. In what, for instance, lies the conscientious distinction, the moral distinction, between contributing to schools in which denominational religion is given out of taxes rather than out of rates? There may be a reason, but I can truly say that neither in this House nor out of it, neither in conversation nor in literature, have I ever seen that reason, if it really exists, stated in explicit or intelligible language. I have never been able to understand this argument about tests applied to teachers. The point was dealt with by my noble friend, I thought fully, and with his argument I am in entire agreement. I will endeavour to summarise what he said, and at all events hon. Gentlemen opposite, if they do not agree with me, will see where my difficulty lies. If you hold that education should be secular and that teachers engaged in secular education should not have the duty of teaching religion in any form thrown upon them, then I agree to require their conformity with the creed of any particular denomination is the application of a religious test in the true and in the offensive sense of the word, because the application of tests in its historic sense meant this, and nothing more than this—that you should compel a man to go through some religious ceremony before he obtained a secular appointment, which religious ceremony was intended to show conclusively that he belonged to this or that religious denomination, and did not belong to this or that other religious denomination. These are tests. That is what tests have always meant historically; that is what they mean now in the minds of anybody who thinks clearly on these subjects. But who would think they were applying tests when they made inquiries as to whether a tutor of their own family was capable of teaching their own religion to their own children? [An Hon. MEMBER: But they pay.] I will come to the question of payment in a moment. I do not think the hon. Gentleman has got up his own case.

The whole theory, as I understand it, of the Nonconformists is that you can teach religion—a religion common at all events to all Protestants in board schools. Is it or is it not a religious test to find out whether the teacher who is going to teach that religion common to all Protestants believes in the religion common to all Protestants and is capable of teaching it? The hon. Gentleman who interrupted is wisely silent, and in truth his interruption does expose the hollowness of the whole proceedings. It is logical to refuse any inquiry into a man's religious belief so long as he is not going to teach religion. But as soon as you require him or expect him to teach religion, be it Roman Catholicism, be it Anglicanism, be it Wesleyanism, or any other form of religion, or, above all, or not least, be it the London School Board syllabus, as soon as you require him to teach that you ought to find out formally or informally, but effectively, whether he is capable of teaching it or not. I know I am not at one with the Nonconformists of this country, with whom I would most gladly live at peace; but, do the best I can, I honestly say I have never been able to see an answer to the argument I have just ventured to lay before the House. If I have failed to understand, as I admit I have, these objections of my Nonconformist friends, have they on their part been fair to the efforts which the Government have conscientiously made to alleviate the difficulties of their position? I have read a great many leaflets and a great many articles and a great many speeches delivered against the Education Bill of 1902 in what professed to be the Nonconformist interest. I have seen a great many statements which seemed to me to be absolutely in conflict with notorious facts. I have seen leaflets in which I really could not detect one specific statement that was true, and I have been informed, rightly or wrongly, that these pamphlets, in which I was unable to detect one single true statement, had been left with every householder over large areas in the country. I think that is very unfortunate, especially when the interests supposed to be at stake are the interests of religion. But while I have seen a great many things that I regret, there are some things which I have never seen at all. I have never seen the smallest recognition in any Nonconformist's utterances whatever—except some private letters which I have received from Nonconformists—of what I conceive to be great changes in our education system made entirely in the interests of Nonconformists. I used to hear before the Bill of 1902 was passed that it was an iniquity, considering in how many parishes the only school was a Church school, that no Nonconformist in those parishes could get his child the first start on the educational ladder by allowing him or her to be introduced as a pupil teacher. I believe a complete remedy was provided by the Act of 1902.

I am talking of the introduction into the profession. The complaint was that the parson of the parish restricted the choice to boys or girls belonging to his own communion. That has been completely changed. ["No."] It has been changed as far as statute can change it. ["No."] As a matter of fact, it has, and every boy and every girl has an absolute right, irrespective of religion, to become a pupil teacher. ["No."] The hon. Gentleman says he cannot rise in his profession. Before I come to that, let me say—there were a few dissentients from the statements I made just now, but there will not be one dissentient from the statement I now make—that the condition of things after the Act of 1902 became law was incomparably better for Nonconformists in that particular than it was before. Now I come to what the hon. Gentleman said about rising in the profession. Before the Act of 1902, in the voluntary schools, unless under special trust deeds, it was impossible for a Nonconformist to obtain a large number of teaching positions. I know hon. Gentlemen claim that the head teacherships in voluntary schools have not been thrown open by law. That is true, but the number of subordi- nate places is far greater than the number of head places, and the subordinate places have been thrown open. [An HON. MEMBER: If the managers think fit.] The hon. Member thinks there may be obstinacy on the part of the managers, but, supposing there is, is not this an enormous improvement on the condition of things that we found before we set to work to deal with this matter? Then is this the Nonconformist point of view—that the system under which the school was entirely in the hands of the parson, who could forbid any child becoming a pupil teacher unless he or she belonged to the same denomination was a better system? Well, I need not pursue that further. Then we used to be told, and told with a great deal of truth, that in a large number of parishes through no fault of the clergyman, but through his sense of public duty in most cases, the whole secular education was under his control, and that was made a matter of bitter complaint by Nonconformists. In the matter of managers they can no longer say that the one-man management of schools continues in any part of this country, and it is childish to say that from their point of view the Act of 1902 did not carry out a great reform in that respect also. Finally, the grievance I have always felt the Nonconformists had was in the matter of the education of teachers after the pupil-teacher stage was passed. It is the Act of 1902, and that Act alone, which has made provision by which Nonconformist teachers should get the teaching in their profession which would enable them worthily to carry out its high functions. I am not going to discuss all the questions raised by these points; but do critics opposite, who heard all these debates in 1902 and know that the account I have been giving of that Bill is an accurate account, think it fair controversy to come nigh to the spreading, or to make no protest against the spreading, of these amazing falsifications of the Act which have been thrown broadcast over the land, and never once in any speech, in any pamphlet, in any article, to suggest that in every particular the Act of 1902 is far more favourable to the Nonconformist than its predecessor? I was roused to make this protest by the remarks of the Member for Berwick-on-Tweed, I hope I have shown, at all events, that if I, with the best will in the world, have failed in some part to find myself in harmony with them, they have not acted with perfect justice towards the Government of which I am a member. With that observation the last touch of controversy, so far as I am concerned with it, shall be put aside from the remainder of what I have to say. I concur absolutely with my noble friend in the speech he made this evening that there are interests before us, interests which we have got to safeguard, interests which are imperilled, incomparably greater than the relatively insignificant fights between this or that Protestant sect. I entirely agree—perhaps here my noble friend will not agree with me—I entirely agree with those who think that there is a body of truth common to all Protestant sects—I would venture to say common to all Christian sects—which may be most profitably and usefully taught to the children of this country. But are you going to settle what the common body of doctrine is by Act of Parliament? Do you think this House, do you think the late London School Board, or the present London County Council, or any other educational authority you please to name, is qualified by tradition, by learning, or by any gift except that of good will, to settle what is this common body of doctrine which is to be taught to the children of tins country, and in which they may all agree. The task is impossible; and, if it were possible, this is not the age of the world in which a House situated like this House can undertake it. You must leave it, and you can only leave it, in logic, to the parents of this country to decide how that should be taught. If there be, as there may be, great difficulties in bringing to bear upon the problem the actual will and intention of the parents of each child, your solution is not, ought not to be, and cannot be, to say that, as the parents are incapable of saying in what denomination their children are to be brought up, it is to be left to the School Board or their successors to settle for them. And yet, although I see all these difficulties before us, I concur with those who think that there are symptoms that religious men in this country, be their denomination what it may, are becoming sick of these disputes, which do infinite harm to education, and, I would venture to say, do still greater harm to religion. But if the controversy is to be approached in the spirit of some Gentlemen I have heard to-night or on previous occasions, I do not see how this embittered strife is to be brought to an end. It cannot be brought to an end, I am confident, as long as one element in the Nonconformist programme is that in no circumstances shall you trench upon the Cowper-Temple Clause. You cannot work the Cowper-Temple Clause. I can imagine many systems which would be just, though do not say that they would always be practicable; but I can conceive of no system which would be just and which would absolutely deprive the parents of the children of every provided school in the country of the opportunity of having those children taught in school hours the religion which they desire. That cannot be. It is not on those lines we can find any solution. Nevertheless I do feel that even as regards the Cowper-Temple Clause there is some change of feeling among those who have hitherto supported it, and that to obtain a really national system of education in which all sects might join, even this ancient prejudice—or, if they will allow me without offence to say, this ancient superstition—might be abandoned for a greater end. However that may be, I have no solution, here and now, even to suggest or hint to the House. On the solution of the question of the Welsh difficulty I have nothing to say in connection with the religious difficulty. All I have to say is in connection with the administrative difficulty. There I am convinced that, however much the hon. Member for Carnarvon—that missionary of peace and good will to all men—may differ from my opinions, he will at all events admit that the education of the children of Wales is a duty which devolves upon the Government of this country, and that, if it is not effectively carried out by those who are legally responsible for it, some remedy for such a state of things must be devised. I think he will allow, speaking as an educationist, and not as a Nonconformist, that to allow the children of Wales to go

AYES.

Ainsworth, John StirlingAsquith, Rt Hon Herbert HenryBell, Richard
Allen, Charles P.Barran, Rowland HirstBlack, Alexander William
Ashton, Thomas GairBarley, Thomas (Derbyshire)Brigg, John

without their proper books and without the necessary machinery of education, to make it doubtful whether the teachers will be paid, and to leave the schools unheated and unrepaired is a state of things which no man, whatever his religious views may be, can contemplate with equanimity, and in which no Government can acquiesce. I hope that without any legislative interference on our part this lamentable state of things can be brought to an end. But if it cannot be brought to an end by those primarily responsible, then it seems to me that a clear duty lies before us, and we must take some measures which shall be effectual to see that the children of Wales do not lack the education given to the children in every other part of His Majesty's dominions.

, said he could not help telling the House that he was a passive resister, and that he was in good company. They had with them ministers of the Gospel, prominent citizens and well known members of society. He did not refuse to pay the rate in order that some one should pay it for him. At any rate he was honest in this matter. He refused to pay the rate because he considered that the Education Bill of 1902 was unjust, and he held that no man who had any conscience ought to agree with it.

Question put.

The Committee Divided:—Ayes, 128; Noes, 248. (Division List No. 53).

Broadhurst, HenryHemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles HRobson, William Snowdon
Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Rose, Charles Day
Bryce, Rt. Hon. JamesHobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E)Runciman, Walter
Buchanan, Thomas RyburnHolland, Sir William HenryRussell, T. W.
Burns JohnHorniman, Frederick JohnSamuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland
Buxton, Sydney CharlesHumphreys-Owen, Arthur C.Schwann, Charles E.
Caldwell, JamesHutton, Alfred E. (Morley)Shackleton, David James
Cameron, RobertJacoby, James AlfredShaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.Joicey, Sir JamesShaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Causton, Richard KnightJones, David Brynmor (SwanseaShipman, Dr. John G.
Cawley, FrederickJones, William (CarnarvonshireSinclair, John (Forfarshire)
Cremer, William RandalKearley, Hudson E.Slack, John Bamford
Crombie, John WilliamKitson, Sir JamesSloan, Thomas Henry
Dalziel, James HenryLambert, GeorgeSmith, Samuel (Flint)
Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)Layland-Barratt, FrancisSoares, Ernest J.
Davies, M. Vaughan (CardiganLeese, Sir Joseph F(AccringtonSpencer, Rt Hn C R (Northants
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesLeng, Sir JohnStevenson, Francis S.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)Levy, MauriceStrachey, Sir Edward
Duncan, J. HastingsMacnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Tennant, Harold John
Dunn, Sir WilliamM'Arthur, William (Cornwall)Thomas, Sir A. Glamorgan E.)
Edwards, FrankM'Kenna, ReginaldThomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
Elibank, Master ofM'Laren, Sir Charles BenjaminToulmin, George
Ellice, Capt EC(SAndrw'sB'ghsMansfield, Horace RandallTrevelyan, Charles Philips
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)Markham, Arthur BasilWalton, Joseph (Barnsley)
Emmott, AlfredMiddlemore, John ThrogmortonWarner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Eve, Harry TrelawneyMitchell, Edw. (Fermanagh, N.Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan
Farquharson, Dr. RobertMorley, Charles (Breconshire)Wason John Cathcart (Orkney)
Fenwick, CharlesMoulton, John FletcherWeir, James Galloway
Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith)Newnes, Sir GeorgeWhite, George (Norfolk)
Fitzmaurice, Lord EdmundNorman, HenryWhite, Luke (York, E. R.)
Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. UnivNussey, Thomas WillansWhiteley, George (York, W. R.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)Partington, OswaldWhitley, J. H. (Halifax)
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryPaulton, James MellorWhittaker, Thomas Palmer
Freeman-Thomas, Captain F.Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
Furness, Sir ChristopherPerks, Robert WilliamWilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert JohnPrice, Robert JohnWoodhouse Sir J T(Huddersf'd
Goddard, Daniel FordPriestley, ArthurYoxall, James Henry
Grant, CorrieReckitt, Harold James
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (BerwickRickett, J. Compton

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr. Haldane.

Gurdon, Sir W. BramptonRigg, Richard
Harmsworth, R. LeicesterRoberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

NOES.

Abraham William (Cork N. E.)Bousfield, William RobertCox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge
Agg-Gardner, James TynteBowles, Lt.-Col H F (MiddlesexCripps, Charles Alfred
Agnew, Sir Andrew NoelBrodrick, Rt. Hon. St. JohnCross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton
Allhusen, Augustus Henry EdenBull, William JamesCrossley, Rt. Hon. Sir Savile
Anson, Sir William ReynellBurdett-Coutts, W.Dalkeith, Earl of
Arnold-Forster, Rt Hn Hugh OButcher, John GeorgeDalrymple, Sir Charles
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. JohnCampbell, John (Armagh, S.)Davenport, William Bromley
Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn Sir H.Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.Delany, William
Bain, Colonel James RobertCautley, Henry StrotherDickson, Charles Scott
Balcarres, LordCavendish V. C. W.(DerbyshireDimsdale, Rt Hon. Sir JosephC.
Baldwin, AlfredCecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Doogan, P. C.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'rCecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)Dorington, Rt Hon. Sir John E.
Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)Chapman, EdwardDoughty, George
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(LeedsClancy, John JosephDouglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeClare, Octavius LeighDoxford, Sir William Theodore
Bartley, Sir George C. T.Clive, Captain Percy A.Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin
Beach,Rt Hn Sir Michael HicksCoates, Edward FeethamDyke, Rt Hon Sir William Hart
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.Coghill, Douglas HarryEsmonde, Sir Thomas
Bignold, ArthurCollings, Rt. Hon. JesseFaber, George Denison (York)
Bigwood, JamesColomb,Sir John CharlesReadyFergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manc'r
Blundell, Colonel HenryColston, Chas. Edw. H. AtholeFfrench, Peter
Bond, EdwardCompton, Lord AlwyneFinch, Rt. Hon. George H.
Boscawen, Arthur GriffithCondon, Thomas JosephFinlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Fisher, William HayesLawson, John Grant(Yorks. NRRedmond, John E. (Waterford
Fison, Frederick WilliamLees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)Redmond, William (Clare)
FitzGerald, Sir Robert PenroseLegge, Col. Hon. HeneageReid, James (Greenock)
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward AlgernonLeveson-Gower, Frederick N S.Ridley, Hon M.W. (Stalybridge
Flavin, Michael JosephLlewellyn, Evan HenryRidley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green
Forster, Henry WilliamLockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Foster, Philip S. (Wariek, S. W.Loder, Gerald Walter ErskineRoberts, Samuel (Sheffield)
Fyler, John ArthurLong,Col. Charles W.(EveshamRobertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Gardner, ErnestLong, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol S.Roche, John
Garfit, WilliamLowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.Lucas, Col. Francis (LowestoftRothschild Hon. Lionel Walter
Godson, Sir Augustus FrederickLundon, W.Round, Rt. Hon. James
Gordon, Hn J E (Elgin & Nairn)Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. AlfredRutherford, John (Lancashire)
Gordon Maj Evans-(T'rH'mletsMacdona, John GummingRutherford, W. W. (Liverpool
Gore, Hn G R C Ormsby-(SalopMacNeill, John Gordon SwiftSackville, Col. S. G. Stopford
Gore, Hon. S F. Ormsby-(Linc.Maconochie, A. W.Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander
Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John EldonMacVeagh, JeremiahSamuel, Sir Harry S(Limehouse
Goschen, Hon. George JoachimMacArthur, Charles (LiverpoolSeton-Karr, Sir Henry
Goulding, Edward AlfredM'Hugh, Patrick A.Sharpe, William Edward T.
Gray, Ernest (West Ham)M'Kean, JohnSheehan, Daniel Daniel
Greene, Henry D. (ShrewsburyM'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)Sinclair, Louis (Romford)
Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.Malcolm, IanSkewes-Cox, Thomas
Grenfell, William HenryMartin, Richard BiddulphSmith, Abel H. (Hertford, East
Gretton, JohnMaxwell, W.J.H.(Dumfriessh.)Smith, H.C (North'mb. Tyneside
Hall, Edward MarshallMilner, Rt Hon Sir Frederick GSmith, James Parker (Lanarks.)
Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.Montagu, G. (Huntington)Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Hambro, Charles EricMontagu, Hon. J. Scott(Hants)Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Hamilton Marq of (L'nd'nderryMoon, Edward Robert PacyStanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Lancs.
Hammond, JohnMorgan, D. J. (WalthamstowStewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart
Hare, Thomas LeighMorpeth, ViscountStock, James Henry
Harris, F. Leverton (Tynem'thMorrell, George HerbertStone, Sir Benjamin
Harris, Dr. Fredk.R. (DulwichMorrison, James ArchibaldSullivan, Donal
Hayden, John PatrickMorton, Arthur H. AylmerTalbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Heath, Arthur Howard (HanleyMount, William ArthurTalbot, Rt. Hn J G (Oxf'dUniv
Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.Thornton, Percy M.
Helder, AugustusMurray, Rt Hn A Graham(ButeTollemache, Henry James
Henderson, Sir A. (Stafford, W.Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.
Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.Myers, William HenryTritton, Charles Ernest
Hoare, Sir SamuelNicholson, William GrahamTuff, Charles
Hobhouse, Rt Hn H(Somers'tENolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N.Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward
Hogg, LindsayNolan, Joseph (Louth, South)Valentia, Viscount
Hope, J F. (Sheffield BrightsideO'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMidVincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)
Hozier Hon. James Henry CecilO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Walker, Col. William Hall
Hudson, George BickerstethO'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.Walrond, Rt Hn Sir William H
Hunt, Rowland,O'Dowd, JohnWarde, Colonel C. E.
Jameson, Major J. EustaceO'Malley, WilliamWelby, Sir Charles G E (Notts.)
Jebb, Sir Richard ClaverhouseO'Shaughnessy, P. J.Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd
Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur FredO'Shee, James JohnWhitmore, Charles Algernon
Jessel, Captain Herbert MertonPalmer, Walter (Salisbury)Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)Parker, Sir GilbertWillox, Sir John Archibald
Joyce, MichaelPeel, Hn Wm Robert WellesleyWilson, A. Stanley (York E R.
Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(DenbighPercy, EarlWilson, John (Glasgow)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (SalopPlatt-Higgins, FrederickWodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R(Bath
Kerr, JohnPlummer, Walter R.Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
Keswick, WilliamPowell, Sir Francis SharpWyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Knowles, Sir LeesPretyman, Ernest GeorgeYoung, Samuel
Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Laurie, Lieut.-GeneralRankin, Sir James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Law, Andrew Bonar (GlasgowRasch, Sir Frederick CarneAlexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Ailwyn Fellowes.
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)Reddy, M.

And, it being after Midnight, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of Standing Order 15, to put the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported upon Wednesday; Committee to sit again tomorrow.

Adjourned at twelve minutes after Twelve o'clock.