To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the conditions connected with the management of cells at police stations; and whether he will consider the desirability of instituting, at an early date, an inquiry into this subject. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) My attention has not been specially called to this subject. Upon the information at present before me I have no reason to suppose that an inquiry such as the hon. Member has suggested to me is necessary; but if he is in possession of any evidence tending to show that there is need for an inquiry I shall be happy to consider it.

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the refusal on the 20th May by the Rector of Clocaenog, Denbighshire, of the parish bier for the interment of the late Mr. John Hughes, a parishioner, under The Burial Law (Amendment) Act, 1880; whether he is aware that difficulties under such circumstances frequently occur with regard to the use of the parish bier; and whether it is the intention of the Government to propose any legislation on the subject. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douylas.) I have made the inquiries which I promised in this matter and have received a report of the facts. I can, however, only say that I have no authority to determine what is the law. or to intervene in the matter. However much such difficulties are to be regretted, I do not think that legislation is called for.

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Departmental Committee to consider the audit of the accounts of local authorities has now been appointed; if so, whether it is preliminary or supplemental to or in substitution of the conference unanimously recommended by the Municipal Trading Committee; if preliminary or supplemental, at what date the conference will be convened; if in substitution, what are the reasons for disregarding the Report of the Committee; and what steps will be taken to give effect to its recommendation that it is desirable that the opinion of professional accountants should be obtained as to the best means of prescribing and auditing the accounts of local authorities. (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) The object of the Departmental Committee will be to deal with the question raised in paragraph 9 of the Report of the Joint Committee on Municipal Trading as to the practicability of a standard form of accounts for local authorities being prescribed. I have not at present been able to appoint the members of the Departmental Committee, but I contemplate that in connection with it the opinion of professional accountants will be obtained. I am only concerned with the accounts of local authorities in England and Wales, and I think that by the adoption of the course which I propose I shall obtain expert evidence of the kind referred to in the Question, and also other evidence which it is desirable I should have to enable me to decide as to the form of accounts to be kept.

To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state the value of the orders for rails and engineering plant respectively, placed by the London County Council with British and foreign firms respectively, for each of the last three years. (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) I am not in possession of the particulars asked for, but I have communicated with the County Council on the subject. I am informed that there is no complete Return from which the information desired could be readily given. I am promised, however, that it shall be collected and sent to me as soon as it can be obtained. On its receipt, I will communicate with my hon. friend.

To ask the President of the Local Government Board, whether he can now state what progress has been made during the last three months to concentrate, in accordance with the Housing Act of 1903, the administration of the Housing Acts in the Local Government Board; and whether the administration of those Acts is still distributed between various Departments; and, if so, will he explain why no steps have been taken to carry out the transfer, which he has stated he is willing should be made. (Answered by Mr. Walter Long.) A portion of the administration of the Housing of the Working Classes Acts is vested in the Secretary of Stat, and has not at present been transferred to the Local Government Board. As I have previously stated, I am quite willing that the transfer should be made, but it has been desired that there should be some transfer of work from the Local Government Board to the Home Office in exchange. This is difficult to arrange, but the matter has not been lost sight of.

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that, during the two years ending the 30th June last, the Metropolitan Police reported twenty-one explosions resulting in injury to eleven persons, and the death of two horses caused through leakage in an electric wire coming into contact with escaped gas; will he state how many of these explosions occurred in the streets of the Metropolis in connection with telegraph and telephone plant; and to what extent the persons injured have been compensated. (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I have seen the reply of my right hon. friend the Home Secretary of the 28th ultimo, †giving the number of accidents mentioned by the hon. Member, but I am quite unable to admit that any of them could have been caused by the leakage of electricity from telegraph or telephone wires. There have been several explosions of gas in the street boxes belonging to the Post Office, but in none of these has it appeared that the Department was liable to pay compensation. I may add that some of the recent cases are under investigation, with a view to ascertain the true cause of the explosions.

To ask the Postmaster-General, if his attention has been directed to the position of assistant postmen at present employed at Glasgow; and, if so, will he say what steps does he propose taking with a view to accelerating the advancement of these men with over four years service to the establishment. (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I am aware that there are several assistant postmen at Glasgow with more that four years service. As vacancies occur on the established force of postmen they are nominated to one-half of the

See (4) Debates, cxxxviii., 1444.

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will explain why, when the seventh hour daily attendance was imposed on the Civil Service under the Order in Council of August. 1890, the additional annual leave permitted under that Order to Civil servants in receipt of more than £350 a year was not extended to the Post Office as well as to other Departments of the Civil Service. (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I am not aware that ally additional annual leave was granted under the Order in Council of August, 1890, as compensation for additional daily attendance. The arrangements in the Post Office as regards leave differ from those in force in most of the public Departments; and I do not consider that it is advisable to make an y alteration in them.

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can say when it is proposed to provide the additional ventilation in the Belfast sorting office sanctioned a considerable time ago; and will proper steps be taken to have the printed regulations regarding dusting and cleaning strictly observed in the sorting office. (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I understand that a contract for the work has been made, and that it will be begun in a few days. The dusting and cleaning of the office are, I am assured, properly attended to.

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a clerk named Murray, recently employed at the Savings Bank Department, London, has been placed on pension on the ground of ill-health, notwithstanding the fact that the specialist who examined him asserted that his ill-health was only temporary; and whether he will state the reason for superannuating a young officer of good conduct and service. (Answered by Lord Stanley.) I am aware that a clerk named Murray for-merely employed at the Sayings Bank Department has recently been pensioned on the ground of ill-health. Mr. Murray subsequently appealed for reinstatement in the service and submitted a medical certificate in support of his appeal. Since then he has been examined by the Chief Medical Officer of my Department who reported that it would not be advisable to give him a further trial at present, but that the matter might be further considered in twelve months time. The case will accordingly be reviewed at the expiration of that period.

To ask the Secretary to the Board of Education whether he will say, as the result of inquiries made under the supervision of the Board, what variations have been sanctioned in the case of six national schools in the county of Carnarvon as to the proportion of foundation managers whether, seeing that these schools have been generally recognised as Church schools for many years, and are in union by their trust deeds with the National Society, he will state on what grounds the variations are being sanctioned; and whether a like process is to be applied to non-provided schools in other counties. (Answered by Sir William Anson.) The hon. Member is under a misapprehension as to the character of these schools. One of them is not in union with any denomination or society. In several, Church of England teaching has not been given for more than a quarter of a century; and in all of them the principles upon which the education given in the school has been conducted in the past were such as, in accordance with Section 11 (4) of the Act, the Board were bound to take into account in making orders for the appointment of foundation managers. As a result the Board have broadened the method of appointment of certain of the foundation managers, and in certain eases the requirement that a manager should be a member of the Church of England has been withdrawn. It is clearly impossible for me to say beforehand whether Section 11 (4) will apply to any cases which may arise in the future. Each case must be considered on its merits when it arises, and, if necessary, after a local public inquiry.

To ask the President of the Board of Trade, can he state or give a Return stating for the years 1902 and 1903 respectively the total value of imports into the United Kingdom of manufactured articles, and the total value of imports into the United Kingdom of partly-manufactured articles.

To ask the President of the Board of Trade, can he explain why the table on page 5 of the Fiscal Blue-book, Cd. 1761, of 1903, which is declared on page 3 to be a continuation of the classification of Paper No. 102, of 1885 (in continuation of Paper No. 362, of 1882) fails to separate, as Paper No. 102 separates, the imports of manufactured from the imports of partly-manufactured goods, and gives only the total of both together; and will he give as a Return a Paper in continuation of Paper No. 102, of 1885, separating the two in the same manner for the years 1884 to 1903 inclusive. (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The Memorandum referred to was intended to compare the growth of the foreign trade in manufactures of the United Kingdom and certain foreign countries. These foreign countries make no distinction in their trade accounts between "manufactured" and "partly-manufactured articles," both being included under the category "manufactures." Hence, for the purpose of the Memorandum, no separation of these classes was required in the case of the United Kingdom figures. The categories of manufactured articles in the official trade accounts of the United Kingdom have recently been carefully revised and improved, and it is not expedient that any fresh Return should follow precisely the old and imperfect classification used in the Return of 1885. A Memorandum, however, dealing with the whole subject of the statistics of our imports and exports of manufactured and partly manufactured articles, with comparative figures over a period of years, is being prepared for publication, and I trust that this will give my hon. friend the information he desires.

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress has been made in the building of additional quarters for the fifty officers at Dartmoor Convict Prison, as land is available upon which the necessary accommodation could be provided by the Government, in order to remove the difficulty that working men in Princetown now have in securing houses at rents within their means, in consequence of the competition for house room in the township by the prison staff for whom the Government have hitherto failed to provide quarters; and whether he will furnish a Return of the number of officers of each of His Majesty's prisons who are not provided with quarters by the Government. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Akers-Douglas.) No progress has been made with the building of additional quarters at Dartmoor, as no funds for that purpose are available in the present financial year. When the Estimates for next year are being prepared the needs of Dartmoor, in this respect, shall be considered; but I must add a warning that there are other prisons which may have a stronger claim than Dartmoor, where the great majority of the officers are already provided with quarters. If my hon. friend moves for the Return he mentions I shall be prepared to give it.

To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that Mr. Commissioner Clifford recently sentenced a native of India at Dibrugarh, Assam, to two years rigorous imprisonment and three months solitary confinement for being found drunk in a house into which he had trespassed; and will he order some inquiry with a view to a remission of part of the sentence. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I have no information regarding the case referred to in the Question. If the facts were as stated it was open to the accused to appeal to the Sessions or High Court, and the case might also have been represented to the Chief Commissioner and the Government of India. I have no reason to suppose that any of these authorities would have refused any relief that was proper in the circumstances, and I do not propose to order an inquiry.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will consider the expediency of issuing a notice that representations affecting the conduct or character of individual members of the Royal Irish Constabulary will only be considered by the Chief Secretary's Department if they have been made through the Constabulary Office, where they will be treated in all cases as public documents and be reported upon as such. (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The step suggested by my right hon. and gallant friend is, I think, unnecessary. All uch representations are considered by the Inspector-General as head of the force. If, as sometimes happens, representations are made to the Chief Secretary's Department they are referred to the Inspector-General who treats them as public documents and reports upon them as such.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the criticism of the Committee of Public Accounts on the war expenditure of 1902–3; and whether, in view of the conditions exposed thereby, the recommendations of the War office Reconstitution Committee with regard to military finance in peace time and in the field in time of war, set forth in Part II., Sections 2 and 3, of their Report, have been, or will be, adopted. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Arnold-Forster.) It is proposed to adopt in the main the recommendations of the War Office Reconstitution Committee regarding military finance in peace and war. As regards the Report of the Public Accounts Committee, I must point out that while it alludes to certain defects which it is hoped will be remedied by the changes proposed, many of the criticisms are not directed against the War Office.

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what has been the cost of the Boundary Commission commanded by Captain Elliot in surveying the frontier line between the Niger and Lake Chad; and will he state briefly what the Commission has accomplished. (Answered by Earl Percy.) The complete accounts of the expenditure incurred on this Boundary Commission have not yet been received, but the total expenditure may be estimated at from £9,000 to £10,000. Lieutenant-Colonel Elliot, R.E., and the officers who assisted him have made a careful survey of the whole of the frontier, some 900 miles in length, no portion of which had been accurately mapped before; and have, in conjunction with the French members of the Joint Commission, determined the positions of a very large number of towns and villages in the regions traversed by them, which were previously unmarked on any map or which had been open to dispute.

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admir- alty whether it is the custom of the Admiralty to ship high explosives in large quantities upon British passenger steamers; and whether, seeing that these steamers do not accept similar freight from private shippers, he will state under what sanction the Admiralty acts in contradiction to regulations which have been thought necessary for the safety of the travelling public.

It is not unusual for the Admiralty to ship explosives upon British passenger steamers, as in view of the excellence of the manufacture, the special way in which they are packed, and the fact that they are always carried in specially constructed magazines, the fear of accident is most remote. It is not correct to say that these steamers do not accept explosives from private shippers for conveyance, and the Admiralty are not aware of any such regulations as those referred to.

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what has been the cost of the Boundary Commission commanded by Captain Elliot in surveying the frontier line between the Niger and Lake Chad; and will he state briefly what the Commission has accomplished.

The complete accounts of the expenditure incurred on this Boundary Commission have not vet been received, but the total expenditure may be estimated at from £9,000 to £10,000. Lieutenant-Colonel Elliot, R.E., and the officers who assisted him have made a careful survey of the whole of the frontier, some 900 miles in length, no portion of which had been accurately mapped before; and have, in conjunction with the French members of the Joint Commission, determined the positions of a very large number of towns and villages in the regions traversed by them, which were previously unmarked on any map, or which had been open to dispute.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the negotiations carried on by him with Lord Milner regarding the general treatment of British Indian subjects in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony have been concluded; whether he has arrived at any settlement of the question as repeatedly promised by him; and, if so, will he state the particulars regarding it.

The dispatch addressed to Lord Milner and fully setting forth the views briefly summarised in my speech of 21st July will reach him shortly. Obviously a final settlement cannot be announced till I have considered his reply.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state approximately to what extent the finances of India will be relieved during the current year through the loan of Indian troops for Imperial services outside India.

The Government of India have informed me that the saving to Indian revenues in the current year through the absence of Indian troops lent for imperial purposes will be approximately as follows:— Troops in China (savings calculated to end of year) £48,200. Troops in Somaliland (savings calculated to 30th Sept.) £42,800. Total—£91,000.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether one of His Majesty's Indian subjects has been requested to return from Japan to India; and, if so, will he state under what circumstances.

I have no knowledge of the case to which the hon. Member's Question refers.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state how many members of the Indian aristocracy are at present receiving military education in the Imperial Cadet Corps recently founded by the Viceroy; and how many commissions as British officers it is proposed to confer annually.

The number of members of the Indian aristocracy receiving military education in the Imperial Cadet Corps is, according to the latest information available, twenty-two. So far as I am at present aware, it is not proposed to confer any fixed number of commissions annually on members of the corps.

What is the definition of an Indian aristocrat?

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the accumulated funds and annual revenue now and hereafter to be placed at the disposal of the Egyptian Government, by virtue of the Anglo-French Agreement, will he state the financial programme that the British advisers to the Egyptian Government propose to recommend.

The hon. Member will find in the Blue-book, Egypt, No. 2 (1904) which has just been laid before Parliament a despatch from Lord Cromer dated the 22nd of April last describing the financial programme which he recommends.

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can say whether the German Government is endeavouring to acquire from the Chinese Government a lease of the Tung-ting Lake, in the Yang-tse Valley, for the purpose of naval manœuvres; and can he make any further statement on the subject.

No Sir. We understand that there is no truth in the report referred to.

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state whether any negotiations have taken place between His Majesty's Government and the Chinese Government with a view to a modification of the terms upon which Wei-hai-wei is held; and, if so, will he state whether His Majesty's Government proposes to retain Wei-hai-wei by purchase or otherwise in case the present lease should determine.

The Answer to the first Question is in the negative. I can make no statement as to the policy of His Majesty's Government in hypothetical circumstances.

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any reply has been received to the representations made to the Government of the Netherlands respecting the wrongs inflicted by the Dutch Colonial authorities upon a British subject, Mr. John Godden.

Sir, I regret that we have not yet received a reply, but the Government of the Netherlands have assured us that the question is receiving their careful consideration.

Does the noble Lord expect a reply at an early date?

I hope so, but our last representation to the Netherlands Government was only addressed to it a fortnight ago.

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General, having regard to the fact that the Postmaster-General's Report has for several years past been issued after the rising of the House, will he take such steps as may be necessary to secure the issue of the Report during the session.

I am not aware that the Postmaster-General's Report has for several years past been issued after the rising of the House. My Report for the past financial year has now been laid upon the Table of the House and I have every hope that it will be ready for distribution before the close of the present session.

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether, seeing that counter clerks in London are entrusted with certain stock, stamps, and postal orders, for which they are held responsible, and that the stock is periodically checked by officials from the Controlling Office, who open the safe and cupboards frequently in the absence of the men affected, he will direct that the clerk with whom the property is entrusted shall always be present when the accounting takes place.

The examination of the whole of the stocks of stamps, postal orders, cash in hand, etc., at each office, has to be made at one time as the separate sub-stocks form part of a whole balance. So far as is possible the examination of the sub-stocks are made in the presence of the officer holding the sub-stock, but when owing to his not being on duty this cannot be done, the officer's interests are safeguarded by the examination being made in the presence of one of his colleagues, who witnesses the counting of the money, stamps, etc, and the replacing of the stock in the safe under lock and key.

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the disparity in the scale of Excise duties on publicans' licences, the smaller houses paving at the rate of 50 per cent. of their annual value; and whether he can now give an estimate of the addition to the revenue which would be effected by imposing on all houses a uniform duty equal to 50 per cent. of their annual value.

I am aware of the disparity referred to by the hon. Member but it must not be supposed that the volume of business is always in proportion to the annual value of the premises. It is roughly estimated that the total annual value of public-houses (exclusive of hotels) in England and Wales is about £7,000,000. If 50 per cent. of this sum were taken as licence duty, it would amount to £3,500,000.

I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Huntingdonshire, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he can state how many acres of agricultural land have gone out of cultivation in England and Wales since 1874; and whether he can state the total rateable value of rural districts in England and Wales in 1873 and 1903 respectively.

A comparison of the Agricultural Returns of England and Wales for 1874 and 1903 shows in the latter year a decrease of 2,683,639 acres of land under the plough and an increase of 3,448,321 acres under permanent pasture. With regard to the second part of the Question, I am informed by my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board that the total rateable value of the rural sanitary districts in England and Wales for the year 1873–74, as shown in No. 3 Abstract of the Local Taxation Returns for that year, was £53,191,434; and according to the statements annexed to the reports of the union; assessment committees, the rateable value of the rural sanitary districts at Ladyday, 1903, was £52,565,185. In connection with the decrease in the rateable value it must be remembered that the total area under the jurisdiction of the rural sanitary authorities has been much reduced in the interval by the formation and extension of urban districts.

I beg to ask the hon. Member for Chorley, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, if, during the coming Parliamentary vacation, he will arrange for the enlargement of the Members' Lobby Post Office; and, also, will have a series of pigeon-holes, one for each Member, placed in sight of the windows in such a position that Members may, without asking an attendant, see if there are any letters or documents in his pigeon-hole, and thus save the trouble of the attendants looking over bundles of unsorted Papers while the Member waits.

The question of further accommodation for the Members' Lobby Post Office has been often considered, but no enlargement is practicable, and there is absolutely no space for a range of 670 pigeon-holes. Some relief might he possible if hon. Members would use the Central Lobby Post Office for a greater portion of their telegraphic business; the accommodation there has recently been much improved.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether application for reinstatement to their holdings have been received by the Estates Commissioners from Mr. Thomas Kent and Mrs. O'Brien, evicted tenants on the Kingston Estate; and whether, before the Estates Commissioners sanction the sale of this estate to the occupying tenants, an inquiry will be made into the circumstances of Mr. Thomas Kent and Mrs. O'Brien's cases, with the view of their reinstatement to their holdings on this estate.

Applications have been received from these evicted tenants, but so far the estate has not been brought before the Commissioners to be dealt with.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the circumstances under which the Commissioners of National Education resolved not to recognise any newly-organised school, the teacher of which may have received dismissal by late manager; and what steps does he propose taking to prevent dismissal of teachers whose conduct is good and whose services have proved satisfactory.

The Commissioners have not adopted the course suggested in the first part of the Question. Under the terms of Rule 44 (d) the local manager is the person charged with the appointment and removal of a teacher, and so long as the Rules are complied with the Commissioners do not interfere with him in the matter.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whet her he is aware that at a recent hearing before Mr. Justice FitzGerald, the rent of the holding of Mr. Patrick Ahern, Ballylough, Mitchelstown, which had been fixed at £44 15s. by the Sub-Commission, was raised to £47 2s. 6d.; and if he will state whether any fresh evidence as to value was given before the Court, if the holding was inspected, and by whom.

The Land Commission Court decides judicially in each case after hearing the evidence of the parties upon consideration of the report of the valuers, and of all the circumstances of the case, holding and district. I cannot further discuss the decisions of the Judicial Commissioners.

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he can state under what circumstances the wages of a sorter named Stevenson in the Belfast office were stopped on the 28th of last month, the date on which he met with a bathing accident; if he can say whether it is customary in the Post Office for officials meeting with accidents of such a character to be dismissed from the service from the date of such an accident; and does the dismissal of Stevenson relieve the medical officer of any further responsibility for his medical treatment, and to what extent; and did this consideration count when the report leading to dismissal was prepared.

I am making inquiry on the subject of the hon. Member's Question and will inform him of the result.

I beg to ask the Post master-General whether, seeing that the battery room is just vacated in the Belfast office, he will arrange for it to be converted into a cloak-room for the use of sorting clerks and telegraphists on the postal side of the establishment, thus leaving the smaller room presently in use as a cloak-room for the supervising staff, for whom he has already undertaken to provide cloak-room accommodation.

The subject of the hon. Member's Question is under inquiry and I will communicate the result to him as soon as possible.

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he can explain why a boy sorter, named Wilson, in Belfast office, suffering front acute nervous prostration, was severely cautioned for leaving his lodgings in Belfast and going to his home in the country, by the instructions of two qualified medical practitioners whom he consulted; is he aware that the medical officer at Belfast, in reporting this case, informed the postmaster that the practice of officials taken ill in town and going to their homes in the country should be stopped; and, if so, will he take steps to provide the necessary attendance of youths who may be taken ill and who are debarred from going to their homes; and will he direct the record against Wilson to be cancelled.

I am making inquiry on the subject of the hon. Member's Question and will inform him of the result.

said he desired to call attention to the Report of the Committee appointed by the Scotch Office to investigate the administration of the National Art and Portrait Galleries at Edinburgh. He thought Scotch Members would do well to inquire into a matter of so much importance to Scotchmen, and he protested against the Scotch Estimates having been relegated to so late a date in a session so barren of Scotch legislation. He knew there were many subjects in the Report of the Committee which required further inquiry before the recommendations could be realised, and he would confine himself to two or three points with which he thought they ought to at once deal and in regard to which there seemed no reason for delay. The platters which he felt might require further inquiry were at the seine time urgent ones, and he hoped they were receiving attention. For instance, there was the question of a new National Gallery in Scotland. It was a question which could not be decided off-hand, but the right hon. Gentleman would do well to remember that the Scottish National Gallery was such that in no other Gallery in Europe was the light and space so poor. There were three points in the Report with which he thought the-Secretary for Scotland should deal at once. The first was the constitution of the Board of Manufactures itself. The Board consisted, and always had consisted, of the most intelligent and public-spirited men they could find in Scotland, but as a Board it had been throughout its career of a most inefficient character, and the country had had to pay very dearly in consequence. He was glad to notice that in the Estimates there was a sum of £2,000 for the purchase of pictures, £1,000 for last year and £1,000 for the current year; but he asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he was going to entrust this money to the uninformed Board of Manufactures. If he were, he had persuaded the present Chancellor of the Exchequer to do what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol refused to do, and he was practically going to throw the money away. The Board of Manufactures effected the purchase of their pictures in a way which would be a discredit to any private collector, in a way which was positively scandalous. The proposal was absurd, and he could not believe that the right hon. Gentleman contemplated such a thing. They ought to put their National Gallery at once upon a business footing, to put the curator upon a proper footing, and to make the body to which he was subject a reasonable instead of an unreasonable and incompetent body as at present. The Curators of the National Gallery and the National Portrait Gallery were at present grossly underpaid. The Curator of the National Gallery received £250. No one would contend for a moment that he should receive less than £500. And the Curator of the Portrait Gallery received £150, rising to £200. A competent person could not possibly be found under £400 a year, except under the same happy circumstances as the case of the present holder, of the Curator having a private income. Then the third matter which he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to deal with was the question of the sum of £2,000 per year which Scotland received under the Act of Union, and which represented the loss which Scotland suffered through the equalisation of the Customs and Excise duties at the time of the Union. The money was the private property of Scotland, and it should not be used, as it was at present used and had been used for a great many years, for paying liabilities which really ought to be borne by the British taxpayer. This state of things could not have arisen had it not been for two things. Unfortunately, the money was put on the Votes in 1854, and this was a step that ought to have been retraced at once. It ought to be placed upon the Consolidation Fund, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would tell them that this would be done. If it were not, he would hear a great deal more about this £2,000. The second reason was that the Board of Manufactures seemed to have been oblivious of the fact that this was Scotch money, and had gradually allowed it to be absorbed for the payment of things which in England and Ireland were paid for by the taxpayer. They could not regret too much that they had shown this extraordinary blindness to their duties as trustees, but the only remedy was to put the Board upon a proper footing and make sure that such glarin gfaults should not recur. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to deal with these three matters at once, but he did not wish to be ungrateful and, therefore, he would call attention to what he had done for them. He had persuaded the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give them £2,000 this year for the purchase of pictures, and he was glad to see that the bargain made two Years ago had been carried out, because this £2,000 was promised by the right hon. Gentlemen the Member for West Bristol in 1901, and if it had not appeared on the Estimates they would have been subjected to robbery. He recognised also, and he gave the right hon. Gentleman great credit for it, that a sum of £200 had been put upon the Estimates to enable the National Portrait Gallery to make a modest acquirement in the way of pictures to that collection; and also a new sum of £150 which would enable that building to be cleaned. The effect was that these sums, amounting to £350 a year, now on the Estimates had to be used in correcting a state of affairs which had been a most disgraceful scandal in Scotland. They had also to thank his right hon. friend for a special grant of £800 for the Museum of Antiquities, and he recognised that he had done a service for Scotland for which every Scotchman ought to be exceedingly grateful. He asked the Secretary for Scotland if he was prepared to deal with the three subjects which he had specially brought to his attention.

said he was given an opportunity of being completely frank with the House, because he was quite certain the Scottish Members felt this was in no sense a Party question, and he was perfectly certain his hon. friend, or any hon. Members who would speak after him, had no wish to criticise the Government, but were merely anxious to be taken into confidence, and to be told what steps had been taken to deal with the very serious and solid recommendations made by the Committee. His hon. friend had frankly said that there were very large questions raised in the Report upon which he could not give judgment. He (Mr. Murray) hoped he should show before he sat down that he should go further than he had been asked to go. He had been asked three particular questions. The first was as to the constitution of the Board of Manufactures. The Report finished with certain recommendations, among other things advising that the constitution of this Board should be altered. He was rather sorry his hon. friend had thought it necessary to make a harsh attack upon the Board of Manufactures, for, after all, they had done their best according to their lights, and especially as it was a complete change of his former attitude, for two years ago; when the Board was attacked, he pointed out that they bought a picture for £5,000, and sold it for £6,000, so that, judged by the vulgar standard of money, they had not made a very bad bargain. In the Report the Board was attacked, not for its purchases, but for not sufficiently strenuously knocking, so to speak, at the door of the Treasury. The Board was inclined to wash its hands of the whole concern, and, as a matter of fact, some of the members did actually send in their resignations; but upon representations being made to them, they patriotically said that although the Report did them scant justice they were perfectly willing to continue in office, in order not to put the Executive into difficulty, until the new arrangements were made. He thought they ought to be given credit for that. He considered the Chancellor of the Exchequer had met them very fairly in the matter. He had not only given £1,000 a year for the purchase of pictures, but he was making up a year of arrears. He did not think the hon. Member need have any fear with regard to this money being given to the Board of Manufactures, for the present Board would have no anxiety to spend the money in haste according to their own ideas; and he was perfectly certain that, if they could not spend, at least they could save and leave it for their successors. The reason he was not attempting during this session to proceed with the reconstitution of the Board of Manufactures was a very simple one. To his mind the question was inextricably bound up with the question of what they were going to do with the National Galleries and other buildings; and he wished at once to indicate that, if certain arrangements were eventually made, and theme was no need for them to take any great time, he was almost persuaded that there would be no necessity for the Board at all. He did not see, if the recommendations of the Committee were carried out, why the National Gallery should not be carried on by a separate trustee as was done in other countries. After all, the reason of these people being there was an historic one. They were appointed for a perfectly different purpose. They were originally a Board of Manufactures; then they became a Fishery Board, and last of all they came to art. The reason he did not hastily reform this body was because he was not convinced that there was any necessity for it at all, and because lie did not think it worth while in t he period of transition to start a new scheme until he knew where he was in regard to the re-arrangements of the various institutions. As regarded the salaries of the curators, he was entirely with his hon. friend, but he did not feel it possible to deal with that subject this year, because the recommendation of the Committee was for increased salaries with, of course, increased duties, and it seemed to him that the question depended upon the eventual position the man was given, and that again depended upon the whole re-arrangement of the various institutions. His hon. friend must not think that because the salaries had not been increased this year, he did not entirely agree with the recommendation, but he thought it ought to be done as part of the rearrangement of the general situation. Then the third point was the question of the transfer of the £2,000 a year, Scotch money, from the Votes to the Consolidated Fund. This seemed to him really a question of arrangement, more or less, of accounts. He quite understood the recommendations of the Committee and saw that, if in future there were a continuance of this arrangement, the money might be lost sight of again in the future, as it undoubtedly had been in the past. But he did not look at it as a matter of immediate moment, although, as far as the principle was concerned, he agreed with his hon. friend. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer went into the arrangements that were to be made, it might be decided that it would be an advantage that they should have some of that £2,000 a year in the shape of an. accumulated capital sum.

Meanwhile it is being used for a wrong purpose.

could scarcely say that it was being used for the promotion of Scottish Art. It might be that there were charges which it at present met which ought to be met directly by the Imperial Exchequer, but that was a perfectly different thing. The Committee's Report said that, for instance, the maintenance of the various buildings ought to be drawn in the form of a Parliamentary grant. There he was with his hon. friend, and he did not think there would be any difficulty about it with the Treasury, but that was not exactly the same thing as saying that the £2,000 was being wrongly used. He would now tell the Committee about what, after all, he looked upon as a mere interim arrangement with the Treasury for this year. The old Estimate was £3,440, including, of course, the £2,000. This year they had had what he called temporary grants, £800 for the Museum of Antiquities, £1,000 on account of the arrears for the purchase of pictures—permanently, of course, they would have £1,000 intended to go on year after year, £200 for the Portrait Gallery, and an additional £150, making a total of £6,550 as against £3,400, which was the old charge. So far as the Committee's Report had shown in its recom- mendations, they might really say they had settled the whole matter, with the exception of the salaries and the upkeep of the National Gallery. The salaries of the National Gallery the Committee thought ought to be met entirely out of a Parliamentary grant, and the upkeep it had put at £700; and the contributions to the salaries of the National Portrait Gallery ought to be put at £250. Therefore all the salaries, subject of course to what he had said about the salary advances not having been made, they had practically raised with the Treasury on the lines of the Report. He could not say that he had got his right hon. friend's consent yet, because he had not formally asked for it, but he did not think the demand which had been put forward by the Committee on the question of these items coming on the Votes just as the National Galleries of England and Ireland were put on the Votes as one which ought to be resisted. He thought the Treasury had met them fairly and had done everything that could be done at once. They said that so far as there were other claims they must be part of their big scheme. Now he would come to what, after all, was at the botom of it all. What was going to be done as to the condition of affairs? The condition of affairs permitted of being very simply stated. There were three competitors for the space on The Mound at Edinburgh: the National Gallery, the Royal Academy, and the Royal Institution and kindred societies; there was only room for two. The Committee pointed out that at present there was not room in the one wing devoted to the National Gallery for a proper show of the pictures they had got, though the hon. Member had perhaps a little exaggerated the extreme difficulties one had to undergo to see the pictures. At any rate, however, there was neither room for the proper exhibition of the pictures nor was there room for expansion. Of course, the simplest plan would be to turn out the other wing and give that to the National Gallery; but then where was the Royal Institution to go? This was not the recommendation which the Committee favoured. They said that even if the National Gallery had the whole of the two wings, it would be no more than enough for their present needs, and would give absolutely no margin for expansion, because both buildings were absolutely incapable of extension. If they kept the National Gallery in the Royal Institution they had the advantage that they had a very fine building in a very fine position, but, on the other hand, there was absolutely no capacity for expansion, and they also turned out the Royal Institution, which, although it had no legal title to the rooms, had certainly a great claim to recognition, because it had been there all along, and it was represented by a great many influential people who would certainly very much object to having to go. The question naturally arose as to where they would put the National Gallery if they did not have it on The Mound. Now, in Edinburgh it was not an easy thing to get a site; but there was one which had been particularly pointed out and which had certainly created a great deal of discussion in art circles, and that was the Royal High School, situated on a plateau just beyond Edinburgh Gaol. It was a classical and beautiful building, which stood on a plateau where there was a good deal of room for expansion, and it was a building which, being of one storey after the Greek model, could remarkably easily be adapted to the purposes of a picture gallery. He believed there was also room there for an art school, and he did not think it would be at all a bad thing to have the art school in juxtaposition to the National Gallery; and therefore he could not disguise from himself that this was a very attractive site. He was in this backed up by a letter from the president of the Royal Scotish Academy. One more fact, and then the Committee would really be in possession of everything. He was met in the winter by a most influential deputation of really all the competent scientific authorities in Scotland, who urged strenuously and with great force that not only should the Royal Institution be allowed to remain where it was, but really that the building ought to be made the home of the learned societies. It was pointed out that it would be an immense advantage to them if they could have first of all a central hall where lectures and discussion could take place, and, secondly, that, if they could house the other bodies, they would have the combined libraries of the various scientific societies in one spot. With these facts before him, he would tell the Committee frankly what he did. It seemed to him that it was impossible to make a real choice between the various schemes without knowing something about the pounds, shillings, and pence, therefore the first thing he did was to ask the Board of Works for a report as to how much money it would take to turn the Royal Institution into a picture gallery, and, having done it, how much more space they would get. He thought this was a practical inquiry to make. The outcome of that was this: The National Gallery at present had 8,600 square feet of hanging space and the Royal Scottish Academy had 8,700 square feet. Now, if the Royal Institution were transmogrified, it would provide 20,326 square feet, but this would not be first - class space, because, owing to the construction of the building, the lower side rooms would only have side lights. The cost would be comparatively small, and would amount to something like £3,000 or £4,000. They would, of course, have to find quarters for the Royal Institution somewhere else in a fairly central position. So far as he could he was making inquiries to find out what would be the cost of putting down a new Royal Institution in a central position in Edinburgh, and he was endeavouring to ascertain the whole total cost of the transmigration. Then he would be face to face with the difficulty that they would not have much more space than the Royal Academy and the National Gallery had between them at the present time. The effective space of the northern building was no more than the effective space of the other building, and there would be no room for extension. He had further instituted an inquiry to see if the authorities of the High School would, in any sense, be willing to treat. There was a controversy going on between the town council and the school board upon this matter. If, as a matter of national policy, the Royal Academy should go to the High School it would have to be done by a Bill. He was not so much inquiring with a view to see whether he was likely to meet with a willing seller as to be able to make a sort of pecuniary comparison between the two alternative schemes he had suggested. That was how the matter stood, and he thought it best to be perfectly frank with the Committee. He had not got a separate policy of his own, and he wished to make this statement because he wished to elicit Scotch opinion upon the subject. It was purely a question of £ s. d., and one scheme might turn out to be ruinously expensive as contrasted with the other, and this was a very good argument with the Treasury. He should not be at all surprised if some people were to be found of the opinion that the High School site was too far from the Academy. Some people would say that the High School had possibilities of expansion which the other site had not. He might say that personally he was rather enamoured of the High School proposal, but that was a point upon which he thought public opinion should have an opportunity of expressing itself. Looking to the recommendations of the Committee, and the fact that they had a certain amount of money in hand, and remembering that they had also got the possibility, at any moment, of getting capital in return for their annuity, he thought the pecuniary difficulties ought to be surmounted. It was certain that the present state of affairs ought not to be allowed to go on, and although there were obviously great difficulties in finally settling which course should be decided upon, he had indicated very plainly what the two alternatives were, and he hoped the Committee would agree that he had not been allowing the grass to grow under his feet, nor was he in any way anxious to adopt a policy representing his own personal view. He was anxious, as far as possible, to carry out the recommendations of the Committee.

pointed out that in the letter which had been quoted it was stated that under this arrangement Ireland received £34,000, whereas Scotland was only to receive £6,000. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would state what course of action he was likely to take?

said he had listened with great satisfaction to the statement of the Secretary for Scotland. What was proposed was nothing short of a revolutionary change in the management of the art galleries and art business in Scotland. It appeared to him that all the recommendations of the Departmental Committee, of which the hon. Baronet was a member, were very closely inter-related to one another and he observed that each recommendation concluded by stating that the Committee saw no reason why the change recommended should not at once be set about and that it brooked no delay. He thought the Secretary of Scotland had really gone as far as any practical administrator could go at the present stage in carrying out the recommendations of the Committee. He would briefly invite the attention of the Committee to the various recommendations in order that hon. Members might see clearly how far the Government were ready to go. The first and most vital recommendation was the reconstitution of the Board of Manufactures. That Board was really entrusted with the duty of encouraging art and supervising and managing all the institutions connected with art. He did not know whether the Secretary for Scotland intended to brush aside that recommendation or whether he proposed to set up a substitute for the Board of Manufactures equivalent to the body which managed the National Galleries in London and Dublin. It was quite obvious that some similar body would be required to be substituted. Why not accept the recommendations of the Departmental Committee and constitute another body at once so that the investigations which the right hon. Gentleman had been so assiduously and very properly making during the past few months might be handed over to this new body to which the hon. Baronet opposite would be prepared to entrust full powers of management. He understood that the Departmental Committee proposed that the new body should consist of fifteen members. The old body was too large, and there was no close and definite sense of responsibility, and no method or organisation about it, and those were the main complaints which had been made against it. It was proposed that of the fifteen members of the new body three should be members of the Royal Scottish Academy, two should be named by the Scottish Academy, one by the University, another by the County Council, one by the Royal Society, and another by the Society of Antiquaries. That seemed a suitable body to undertake the inquiry. It was necessary to appoint at once a curator with a proper salary and allowance for travelling expenses. It was indispensable that this new official should have the initiative, and what was perhaps more important, that his decisions and advice should not be overruled by the board which it was proposed to set up. If they did differ from the decisions of this official they should record their reasons in writing. The Secretary for Scotland said he found great difficulty in setting up this new official until he had made up his mind whether there was to be a board of control. Did the right hon. Gentleman propose to constitute a new board? He thought that that step was absolutely essential. The next most important recommendation of the Departmental Committee was the severance of the school of art altogether from the Board of Manufactures. It was proposed to set up an entirely independent board to supervise the school of art, and he was proud to think that the model of the new system was to be found in Glasgow. Another important recommendation was that adequate funds should be given to the National Gallery. He rejoiced to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that he accepted without qualification the recommendation of the Committee that the new gallery should be placed on exactly the same footing as the National Galleries in England and Ireland, and that they should have in Scotland a National Gallery as fully equipped and as well-supported by the State. They approached the subject of he National Portrait Gallery with a real sense of shame, because it had been treated in a most penurious and niggardly fashion by successive Governments. It had often been said that the lack of private munificence had contributed to the poverty of the national collections in Scotland. For that there was no foundation; but he thought the pernicious treatment of successive Governments tended to dry up the springs of private munificence. The National Portrait Gallery practically owed its origin to the princely munificence of patriotic citizens. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see that this difficulty was remedied. It was sad to read that in the National Portrait Gallery the staff was inadequate, the pictures could not be kept in good order, the ventilation was bad, and the ordinary repairs could not be properly carried out; and also that it was impossible to keep the building reasonably clean. He was glad to hear that it was not going to remain in that state any longer. He understood that the different sums voted for art purposes amounted to £3,150. He had been looking at the total net cost which the Committee estimated would be incurred if all their recommendations were carried out, and he learned that £4,200 would, in their judgment, suffice to carry out their recommendations. It was proposed that £2,900 should be given to the National Gallery, £600 to the National Portrait Gallery, because an increased salary to the curator was needed, £200 for additional pictures, and £400 to the Society of Antiquaries. The right hon. Gentleman had probably gone as far as it was possible for him to go in carrying out those recommendations. He hoped that in the meantime he would be generous in regard to salaries, and maintenance, and the upkeep of the buildings. He agreed that the difficulty of choosing a new site was extreme, and nobody who knew Edinburgh would doubt that for a moment. He did not think that a third site was available and he wished the right hon. Gentleman well in his negotiations for the acquisition of the Royal High School. He was not quite certain whether he was going to place the National Gallery in the Royal High School. The Committee had pointed out that the present premises were quite inadequate in size for a permanent collection which they all anticipated would grow in extent every year. He understood that the recommendation was to leave the Royal Scottish Academy in possession of the buildings on The Mound, if suitable accommodation could be found for the pictures elsewhere. The Scottish Academy had gone as far as they could expect it to go in generously offering their pictures, which were valued at £38,000, as a gift to the nation in consideration of their remaining in the exclusive occupation of The Mound premises. That was an exceedingly good arrangement which, he understood, the right hon. Gentleman was willing to endorse. This discussion had been useful, if only for the fact that it had elicited from the Secretary for Scotland the very valuable and extremely satisfactory explanation he had given to the Committee.

said he was very pleased to hear the statement of the Secretary for Scotland that he had practically secured, as far as the annual grant was concerned, all that the Committee had recommended, and very little remained to be added to make it complete. He was sure they would all be ready to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon the success of his efforts with the Treasury. He desired to impress upon the Secretary for Scotland the necessity of providing liberal grants in connection with the new building for the National Gallery. Two Years ago it was pointed out that while the London art galleries were receiving £80,000 a Year, and the Dublin art galleries £8,760 a year, the Scottish galleries were receiving practically nothing. There had also been a large grant to Ireland for pictures when Scotland had received practically nothing in that respect. The Chancellor of the Exchequer two years ago intervened in the debate and rated the Scottish nation roundly for their parsimony in connection with art, pointing out that, in accordance with an agreement with the Treasury in 1886, contributions were given in proportion to the amount of the private donations to the picture galleries of the different countries. The right hon. Gentleman stated then that while Ireland had got pictures by private munificence to the extent of £60,000, Scotland had really done nothing, though a very much wealthier and stronger nation. He was glad that the Report of the Committee had corroborated what the Scottish Members said at the time to the effect that the liberality of Scotland, both municipal and private, had been very much in excess of that of any other part of the Kingdom. His hon. and learned friend opposite had referred to the splendid donation given by Mr. Finlay, of Aberdour, to the value of £60,000. The municipality of Edinburgh had not been behind in that respect, because it gave for £1,000 a site for the galleries which was worth £30,000. That was prac- tically a gift of £29,000. He was informed that the city of Glasgow, through private and municipal sources, had in the last twenty or thirty years given no less than £750,000 for art purposes. That was probably the most munificent subscription to art in the United Kingdom or in Europe. He could state on the authority of Sir Francis Powell, the celebrated artist, that the Glasgow art galleries were the finest in the country, and perhaps in Europe. Reference had been made by his hon. and learned friend to the Glasgow School of Art. He would say that the Edinburgh school could take no better model than that of Glasgow, either in connection with buildings or the manner in which classes were conducted. He wished to impress on the Treasury the necessity of contributing liberally to the very large fund which would undoubtedly be required for the purpose of putting on a proper footing the new building for the National Art Gallery. He hoped the Secretary for Scotland would be as successful with the Exchequer in his efforts to obtain a large capital sum as he had been in securing an annual grant for the purposes of art in Scotland.

said the Secretary for Scotland had stated that he was glad this opportunity had occurred for eliciting Scottish opinion, but surely an earlier time than the end of the session would have given hon. Members a better opportunity for that purpose, for the attendance of Scottish Members today was very small. He was sure every Scottish Member would have been present if the debate had taken place a month ago. He desired to acknowledge the interest which the Secretary for Scotland had shown in the question, and the careful analysis he had given the Committee of the various elements and of the different proposals. He earnestly hoped the right hon. Gentleman would continue to show this interest by pressing for more money. He was rather struck by the Report of the Committee in that respect. The Committee recommended an additional grant of £4,200. It was a remarkable Committee. It consisted of the hon. Baronet the Member for the College Division of Glasgow, the hon. Member for East Perthshire, and two other Members who were there to see that Scotland did not get too much. One of these Members was the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary. He was a Scotchman and he was also a member of the Cabinet, whose desires he might be taken as representing in matters of economy. The fact of his signing the Report and giving his countenance to the recommendation for an increased grant was of peculiar interest. The Director of the National Gallery of Ireland was also a member of the Committee. They knew that there was always competition between what was called the sister countries, and the case was very much strengthened by the fact that the representative of the only competitor in this matter with Scotland had assented to the demands made upon the Government. He was quite sure that these demands were reasonable, and he thought his hon. friend the Member for the College Division was justified in saying that every possible precaution should be taken to prevent the sum of £2,000 which was exclusively Scottish property from being either used to meet any charge which ought properly to fall on the National Treasury, or from being dealt with in a way which might make it possible that its character as Scottish property should be taken away. The Secretary for Scotland promised to give them legislation at an early date. He quite saw that the right hon. Gentleman must have the assent of the Treasury, because a grant of money was a vital element in any proposal he might make. He hoped they might take it that the right hon. Gentleman would not allow the grass to grow under his feet, that he would obtain this grant as soon as possible, and that he would be able to bring in a Bill next session which would deal with the proposals of the Committee and reconstitute this so called Board of Manufactures upon a new and better footing. Its present composition was rather absurd, and a very much better one might be found. Here he must make a remark in the interest of those parts of the country not immediately around Edinburgh Castle. The people of Edinburgh were apt to mistake them selves for the people of Scotland. There were people who considered themselves entitled to be represented in such matters as well as the people of Edinburgh. If the recommendations of the Committee were given effect to, it would be possible for the Secretary for Scotland out of the nominees assigned to him to make provision for counties and towns besides the capital. He noticed that the Departmental Committee suggested that a member should be appointed by Edinburgh Town Council, another by Edinburgh University, and that others should be represented by societies. The societies did, to a certain extent, represent Scotland outside of Edinburgh, but the University and town council members would represent the city of Edinburgh only. Therefore, he would say to the Secretary for Scotland, that if he was going to constitute the Board on a really proper national basis, he must have regard to the people outside of Edinburgh. By not making it too much of an Edinburgh board and by putting it on a wider basis, it would carry the confidence of the rest of Scotland. On the question of site, he said that experience had shown, especially in the case of the learned societies of London, the immense benefit of endeavouring to consolidate the different societies in one local building. It would be a very great advantage if the Secretary for Scotland would endeavour to secure that the different learned and scientific societies of Edinburgh should be housed in, or near, the same spot. Any site chosen for art galleries should be one which would admit of the expansion of the galleries. It would be the greatest possible mistake to put the building in a place where that could not be done. The right hon. Gentleman carried the Committee with him when he indicated a site on Calton Hill. He was not certain but that the Secretary for Scotland might find it wise on the site question to have a Committee which would aid him, and which would take a little more evidence and report on the subject. No one could fail to feel the great importance of the question. Scotland had produced an unusually large number of eminent artists in proportion to the population, and it had shown a faculty for giving and maintaining a national quality in art production, and giving diversity and individuality to the subjects treated. If anything could be done to give it the means of maintaining that individuality which it had shown in the past, and which was more threatened under modern conditions than it was a hundred years ago, it would be a benefit not only to Scotland, but to the artists of the United Kingdom. Art should not run in one channel, but into a variety of types, and so enable the country the better to hold its place in competition with the other nations of the world. There was one other point. It was a matter of the greatest importance to maintain the Museum of Antiquities and the National Portrait Gallery with a view to enable students and visitors from other countries to study the history of Scotland. There were very few countries whose history had so great an interest to travellers from Europe and America—partly through the dramatic events in the annals of the nation, and partly through the writings of Sir Walter Scott. And, therefore, anything which was done for the preservation of the antiquities of Scot-Lind, and for the display of its collection of art, was of exceptional value and of great interest not only to the inhabitants these islands, but to students from elsewhere. These considerations might seem remote from the matters they were discussing, but, when properly looked at, they were cognate to the main question they desired to bring before the Committee—viz., that they should deal liberally with these local collections and put their administration on a proper footing.

said he agreed with other Members for Scotland that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland was a most satisfactory one. Indeed, there was a proposal of the right hon. Gentleman which he preferred to that of his hon. friend the hon. Baronet the Member for Glasgow. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the danger which existed that, as long as this £2,000 a year, which was Scottish property in connection with the Act of Union, was put on the Estimates year by year, it must be taken out of the Estimates; and the hon. Baronet suggested that it should be taken out of the Estimates and placed on the Consolidated Fund. He liked better the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland, who realised that a time might come when a Saxon Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was ignorant of the history of the matter, might suppose that this was a grant made year by year from the Exchequer to Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that this fund of £2,000 should be commuted at once, and the amount safely carried across the border. He agreed with that, especially as there was an opportunity now of utilising the money in connection with the new National Gallery for Scotland. He was not going to discuss the question of the composition of the new board that was to take the place of the existing one, because until they knew what were to be the duties of the new board it would be ridiculous to discuss its composition in the future. As to the question of sites, everybody who knew Edinburgh acknowledged that there were only two practical sites—the Mound, or the present position of The Royal High School. He had a suggestion, although lie knew it was useless to make it: viz., that the existing miserable buildings on Castle Hill should be pulled down and the site utilised for the new National Gallery. They would get rid, not of historical buildings, but of modern structures which were a disgrace to the site and the city.

Does the hon. Member mean the buildings on Castle Hill?

No; the modern barrack buildings on the Castle Rock. He did not propose to pull down anything that was historical. Nobody would suggest vandalism of that sort; but the barracks which in all their deformity and nakedness affronted the eye of every stranger who visited Edinburgh for the first time, and were a disgrace to the architectural art of Scotland. As to the two sites referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, he quite agreed that it was difficult to form any estimate of the expenditure that would be required. If other sites and other buildings were to be found for the other institutions the £4,000 suggested would fall into utter insignificance. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that no better site could be found, if it could be obtained, than that of the Royal High School, standing as it did where one could see it almost from the end of Princes Street.

said that the Calton Gaol intercepted that view. And what about the gas-works?

said he understood the gas-works were to come down. One of the most essential necessities for improving that part of Edinburgh was the removal of the gas-works. They had no estimate of the cost of the Royal High School site, and were working in the dark, so far as money was concerned. Apart from the question of the money which could be extracted from an unwilling Treasury in England, he thought that either of the sites referred to by the right hon. Gentleman would be satisfactory. He congratulated the Secretary for Scotland on his statement.

said he desired to say that he was perfectly satisfied that all his colleagues for Ireland were quite ready to back up their Scotch friends in their ardent desire to have museums and art galleries put on a proper basis, because they felt that their own development of Irish art should be out on the same sound basis. Sir James Guthrie, referring to the Royal Hibernian Academy and the Irish National Gallery, said in the Report already referred to—

"My Council are given to understand that the cost of corresponding buildings in Dublin and London were, for the most part, met out of Treasury grants."

"As against this, per contra, the Academy of Ireland has never had buildings or endowments of any sort from the State, but an annual vote of £300, and the chief consideration for that was the maintenance of a free life school for the few artists, male and female, studying in Ireland. Towards its main obligation of bringing contemporary art to the Irish people, its balance from State aid, when last computed, was £116."

said he felt that the subject brought up that day would go on for years. It was not likely to be determined next year, or the year after, or the year after that. He quite agreed that the £2,000 referred to should be kept entirely distinct from Imperial money. There were two sums of £30,000 and £40,000 which came under the Treaty of Union. The first referred to the equivalent for the English National Debt and the second referred to the Scottish Universities. It had always been cast up cwt Scottish Members that that was imperial money given to Scotland, whereas it was only one portion of purely Scottish money—reserved to Scotland under the Treaty of Union. The money should be utilised every year for the purpose for which it was granted. He did not understand why ono generation should possess itself of the money. If that were allowed, the tendency of every generation would be to appropriate the money for its own purposes. With regard to the site for the National Gallery, he quite appreciated what had been said about the Royal High School at Edinburgh as a suitable site; but why should Edinburgh necessarily be chosen. In the past Edinburgh was the capital of Scotland; but why should they look at the site of the National Gallery from the point of view of sentiment. The gallery would be ten times more useful in Glasgow, where an enormous population had grown up in modern times. Edinburgh could keep its present buildings; but if a National Gallery was about to be established, Glasgow, with its population of over 1,000,000, would be more convenient. As regarded local aid, it would be forthcoming more readily if the gallery were situated in Glasgow rather than in Edinburgh. He quite appreciated the labours of the Committee; but the Report of a Departmental Committee took many years to carry out. Scotsmen would wish to see the more immediate matters put on the Imperial Estimates; but any further changes might well be left to the future.

said he hoped that the Secretary for Scotland would arrange for the proper expenditure of this money; and that it would be expended for exclusively Scottish purposes. He wished to draw attention to the fees which were charged. In no other art gallery in the world were such high fees charged. The charges were mean and contemptible, and should be got rid of. He hoped the Secretary for Scotland would be able to obtain the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to dispense with these charges. The picture galleries on the Continent, including the galleries at Florence and Pisa, were free from anything of the kind. £34,000 per annum was given to the Art Gallery in Ireland; whereas only £6,000 was given to Scotland. The Secretary for Scotland should discuss that matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer; because Scotland was surely entitled to as much as Ireland. It was very desirable to encourage art in Scotland; and he hoped that the Secretary for Scotland would succeed in obtaining from the Chancellor of the Exchequer a sufficient sum for that purpose.

said he wished to thank his right hon. friend for his statement. It was a most satisfactory statement, and showed that the matters at issue were perfectly safe in his right lion. friend's hands. He hoped that in anything he had said he did not display any distrust in his right hon. friend. His right hon. friend chaffed him for having defended art purchases a few years ago; but he did not defend the Board of Manufactures from the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. Inquiries since then had convinced him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was on that occasion perfectly right in every charge he brought against the Board of Manufactures.

said he did not quarrel with the tone of the debate. He assured his hon. friend he was not at all apprehensive of want of confidence on his part. All he was doing was trying to defend a body of gentlemen whom he was sure had done their best in the circumstances in which they were placed. He could not pass without protest the attack of the hon. Member for Mid. Lanarkshire on the existence of the National Gallery in Edinburgh. Where did he want it—was it at Motherwell? Did he want the £2,000 divided among the parishes in Scotland according to their valuation and population. After all, he hon. Member must really give some place to Edinburgh, as the capital, and he would be a very poor Scot if he gave the hon. Gentleman the slightest hope of allowing the National Gallery of Scotland to be anywhere but in the capital. As to the reconstitution of the Board, he could do nothing without legislation. His point was that he hoped an arrangement would be made with the Treasury for the upkeep of these institutions. He could not abolish the Board as it was, because it was the only means at present by which the statutory funds could be distributed. The hon. Member for Perth had said the real figures were not given. He quite agreed. He did not think one could be in a position to give figures barring this, that if one knew what the work of the future was to be one could arrive at what would be the necessary solution. He pointed out that on the other alternative scheme they would have to find a new site for the societies which inhabited the Royal Institution, and that would be a very expensive process. Of course, as they were not quite so large, it would not be so expensive as housing the National Gallery elsewhere. He was bound to say, knowing Edinburgh as he did, he should despair of ever being able to solve this question by voluntary bargain at all. Therefore, what he wanted was the support of the House in one or other of the policies he had indicated, so that they might go forward with what might be the policy of the House.

said this was not the first nor the second time he had had to draw the attention of the Committee to the necessity of the Local Government Board for Scotland taking more steps with regard to the number of uncertified deaths in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. This was not a matter of legislation, but of administration. These deaths were due to the insufficiency of medical men, and the Local Government Board should take steps to provide more medical men. He remembered once being in the Island; of Lewis with a medical friend, when the minister was suddenly attacked by illness, and had it not fortunately happened that he was seen by his (Mr. Weir's) friend the minister would probably have died. This gentleman lived forty-five miles away from the nearest medical man, and had the gentleman been sent for in all probability it would have been found that he had been called to a patient miles away. It was a scandal to Scotland that such a thing should be allowed. He was sorry also to have to draw attention to the insanitary condition of the houses in the Island of Lewis; but having regard to the action of the the Government in dropping the Bill they proposed to bring in he had no alternative but to call attention to these matters. Four thousand houses at least in Lewis were in a most insanitary condition, the people inhabiting them only being separated from the domestic cattle by a handrail. Their condition was simply alarming. It was a state of things that ought not to be allowed in any part of the British Islands. He had been in many lands, and seen many peoples, but he had never seen anything so bad as the conditions which existed in the Island of Lewis. It was a scandal that should not be allowed to continue. The Local Government Board should appoint a sufficient number of inspectors who should be sent out to report what alterations should be made and should not be allowed to waste their time in Edinburgh. This condition of things existed on the western mainland. What was the result? Epidemics constantly raged, and there were no isolation hospitals for the patients, who had to be treated in their own homes. The result was that 135 schools were closed from two to four weeks twice or three times a year. That was a most serious thing from the point of view of the education of the children. No wonder the people were never able to get on. The schools themselves were not in a satisfactory condition; the water supply was bad; and the ventilation was bad, and when he asked the local sanitary inspectors and the local medical officers for health why they did not report these things they replied that they were tired of sending reports to headquarters because the Local Government Board took no notice. Why was not this state of affairs remedied? It would not be allowed for a moment if these places were close to our great cities instead of being remote. Another matter in regard to which the Local Government. Board had been guilty of serious neglect concerned the condition of the churchyards in many parts of the Highlands. For years the sanitary inspectors had been calling attention to the facts, but nothing had been done. In many cases the churchyards were so crowded that the bodies were almost out of the ground. The Local Government Board ought to insist upon more land being secured, and he urged the right hon. Gentleman to see that the officials at Edinburgh performed their duties in a more satisfactory manner. During the past year no fewer than nineteen medical officers had been appointed, not one of whom possessed a public health diploma. That was in direct contravention of the statute. What was the good of passing Acts of Parliament if the Secretary for Scotland paid no attention whatever to them? Then there was the question of tuberculosis. That was a terribly infectious disease, the spread of which the Local Government Board ought to do its utmost to prevent. In many new establishments special wards were being set apart, and he suggested that if alterations were not being made in existing institutions they ought to be. The least that should be done was to provide a kind of out-house in which such cases might be isolated. He also asked what the Board were doing in the way of securing the medical examination to children, with a view to providing, where necessary, better treatment and nourishment, as recommended by the Physical Training Committee. Thousands of men were rejected annually for service in the Army and Navy because of their physical condition not being up to standard. Ho hoped the Board would do their utmost to bring this matter prominently forward. The recent Return with regard to local medical officers was of the most inaccurate description. The Board ought really to see that the information they furnished to the House was correct, instead of doing their work in so slip-shod a manner. Another matter to which he had had to refer on previous occasions was the use of humanised lymph. It was condemned in every other civilised country, and yet it was allowed in Scotland. Vaccination was compulsory; there were no exemption certificates in Scotland; therefore, it was the duty of the Government to see that the lymph supplied was of the very best quality. The lymph was supplied in Scotland by an official of the Local Government Board on his own account, and none of the vaccine stations were subject to proper supervision. Any vile stuff might be sent to them. How were they to know that it was all right? There was no standard of quality for the lymph. If the Government insisted on compulsory vaccination they ought to see that there was a sufficient supply of the purest and best quality that could be obtained. He was not surprised that the people of Leicester should stand out against the abominable practice of vaccination. If they could be assured that the lymph was pure and up to a proper standard many people who claimed exemption now would not do so. He admired those who resisted rather than submit to brutal and arbitrary laws. He asked the Secretary for Scotland to give attention to the vaccination question and to see that the Local Government Board made arrangements for a satisfactory supply of lymph. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to give some assurance that he would waken up the Local Government Board from their slumbers, because the matters to which he had referred, and others with which he would not deal at present, ought to be better attended to than they had been in the past.

said he was a member of the Local Government Board for some time, but he was afraid that would not recommend it much to the hon. Member for Ross-shire. His experience as a member of the Board had enabled him to appreciate the points which the hon. Member had raised, and the difficulties which the Board, both as a board and as individual members, had in meeting those cases. He could assure the hon. Member that they quite recognised, and especially in the northern districts, that there were many geographical and local circumstances which made the condition of the population by no means easy. So far as matters of public health were concerned the condition were sometimes of such a character as to give a great deal of anxiety to those charged with the care of the interests of the people. If the hon. Member would pardon him for saving so, the Highland districts of Scotland, at any rate, were well represented on the Local Government Board. The Secretary for Scotland was a member of the Board, and he and the other members were well acquainted with the conditions in the various districts of Scotland.

They never go there.

said the hon. Member was hardly fair to the members of the Board. He knew that it was their fortune to visit different parts of the Highlands every year, and he could assure the hon. Member that the condition of the Highlands with regard to the various matters referred to were not sonly constantly brought before the Local Government Board, but that they engaged their most careful consideration. They were as anxious as any public body could be to ameliorate the condition of the population in the various districts. With regard to uncertified deaths in Highland parishes, he agreed that the number was unfortunately too large. But, on the other hand, he was afraid it was a matter in respect of which no power possessed, at any rate, by the Local Government Board could give any effectual remedy, for unless the patient had been seen by a medical man it was not easy to get a satisfactory certificate. He was sure the hon. Member recognised that the long distances in sparsely populated districts and the fact that in such districts as were to be found in many of the Highland counties they could not get a sufficient supply of medical men, made it difficult, and indeed impossible, completely to remedy the evil which had been referred to. He could assure the hon. Member that nothing had been wanting on the part of the Local Government Board to see that a better state of matters was brought about in that respect. The insanitary state of the houses in many parts of the country was also a matter which all must regret, but here again, he was afraid that the Local Government Board had not power to enable them to satisfactorily deal with it. To a large extent it must remain a matter for the management and the administration of the local authorities in Scotland. He did not desire to blame them at all in that respect, for one recognised the difficulties of the situation. One result of taking action in this matter might be to deprive some of the country population of even the inadequate housing they at present had, because the cost was such that he doubted whether it could be obtained to an extent which would be sufficient to secure an adequate improvement with regard to the houses. He was in hopes that his right hon. friend the Secretary for Scotland might be able to follow the example of his predecessor, as the hon. Member desired, and that they would get the benefit of his further experience. In regard to the position of the schools, that was a matter which had been engaging the attention of the Local Government Board and of the Scotch Education Department, and he was very hopeful that if they were fortunate in respect to educational legislation next session, that it would be put on a better footing. The condition of the churchyards was entirely a matter for the various local authorities. They had power to look after their condition, if there was such room for complaint as the hon. Member had suggested. He could assure the hon. Member that it was not at all an easy matter for the central authority to insist on the strictest regard for the law in these remote, sparsely populated districts, because that would involve expense beyond what these poor districts were able to bear. They could not have local administration carried out as satisfactorily in these sparsely populated and poor districts as in wealthier districts where the resources of civilisation were much more easily available and where a remedy was less expensive to get. As to the supply of medical officers of health, that was a matter for which the Local Government Board had over and over again endeavoured to find a remedy. But everyone who was acquainted with the difficulty of the question would realise that they could not get the best men to go to an out-lying district as officers of health where there was little or no private practice to give them anything like a remuneration for their ability or energy and induce them to settle down in that part of the country. During the last seven or eight years, he knew, the Local Government Board had had to meet that difficulty and they were endeavouring to meet it. The last point referred to by the hon. Member was as to the supply of lymph. He thought that the conditions under which that supply could be procured were thoroughly well known to the hon. Member. He thought that the arrangements which had been made were really the best possible. The supply of lymph wanted in Scotland was not at all sufficient to demand the setting up of an independent establishment; and arrangements had been made with the English Local Government Board to get an adequate supply so as to avoid the use of humanised lymph. The hon. Member said that the use of humanised lymph was forbidden in England. He did not know whether that was so or not; but so far as the practice in Scotland was concerned, the use of humanised lymph was very small compared with that of glycerinated lymph. The administration of the vaccination laws in Scotland was even less grievous than in England. Although the law in Scotland was very strict, the Local Government Board recognised that it did not pay to make too many martyrs in that regard. Fortunately, the Scottish population were fully aware of the advantages of vaccination and re-vaccination and they did not have so many of that class of people who objected to vaccination as, say, in Leicester. So far as the administration of the Vaccination Laws in Scotland was concerned there was no substantial grievance in Scotland. The Local Government Board were anxious, by care and attention, to remedy the evils to which attention had been drawn by the hon. Member, and many of which he agreed existed, and to secure that the various local authorities should, so far as their means would allow, conform to the law. At the same time they recognised that the difficulties of the situation were such that it would lead to greater evil if the strict letter of the law were enforced. They must wait for the legislation which the hon. Member desired; and he could not doubt that, by the assistance of the hon. Member for Mid Lanark in an early session, they would be able to remove some of the difficulties in the way of the Local Government Board.

said he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he would give all the assistance in his power to get such legislation passed.

said he could only suggest that in the meantime the Local Government Board had to do their duty and that the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark should likewise do his.

said he wished to compliment the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty on the manner in which he had by speech and Question and Answer attempted to keep the Local Government Board up to their duty; and he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would see in the future some further fruits of his efforts. He trusted that English Members would follow the example of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty in that regard; for, after all, public Departments were the better for criticism like that directed against them by his hon. friend below the Gangway. By so acting they would be doing good service to their constitutencies and the whole country. The hon. Member had called attention to the number of medically uncertified deaths in Scotland. In Scotland there was some excuse why a number of deaths were not certified by a medical man on account of the grea distances; but an alteration of the law might bring about a remedy of the evil of which the hon. Gentleman complained. It was not for the public well-being that any citizen should die without some proper investigation being made as the cause of death. Without that the perpetrators of crime escaped, who, under a more efficient system, would be discovered and brought to justice. It also involved a large amount of carelessness on the part of those connected with the persons who were suffering from disease. If, as the hon. Member suggested, pressure could be brought to bear on the Local Government Board, some alteration in the law might be secured. At the present moment it was a scandal in England, as well as in Scotland, that a large number of people were buried, the cause of whose death had not been properly certified. The law in this country should be made like that in any other civilised country where no person could die without proper investigation into the cause of his or her death by some one representing the Government. That was a question which he had repeatedly brought before the House, and there was little excuse for the Government not introducing legislation long before now. The Report of the Committee which investigated the, subject and whch suggested a remedy had been before the Government for the last eight or nine years, and a draft Bill had even been prepared, but up to the present time no legislation had been introduced.

I think the hon. Member is asking for legislation on this subject. That cannot be discussed in Committee of Supply.

said he was only calling the attention of the Local Government Board of Scotland to this matter, and suggesting that some remedy might be found for the present unsatisfactory condition of things. He thanked his hon. friend below the Gangway for having raised this question. He thought the excuse which the Lord Advocate had given was a fair one in regard to distance. His hon. friend also referred to the question of the use of humanised lymph, and he was glad that the Lord Advocate had given a sympathetic answer. He hoped that the necessity for the use of humanised lymph would disappear altogether. It was within the duty of the Government to supply glycerinated lymph for the purpose of vaccination. He was glad that in Scotland they did not make martyrs in connection with vaccination. They had too much good sense. The people of England were often driven into opposition against vaccination because they were occasionally made martyrs in the cause. The administration of the Act would be efficient, and more satisfactory to the public if a proper supply of gly erinated calf lymph was at the service of all practitioners. With reference to medical officers of health, there was a difficulty in many districts on account of the small areas, and the consequent small salaries. The remedy for that was co-operation between adjoining districts, which would enable salaries to be increased without any excessive burden on the rates. If the Local Government Board of Scotland would induce local authorities to co-operate in this manner, there would be generally a more efficient administration of the law. He hoped the same practice would be followed as was followed in England; and that every county area would have an officer of health. The question of expense should not be considered; because the saving of the lives of a few bread-winners would be equivalent to the salary of an officer of health for a year. It was the worst economy to attempt to save where health was concerned. It was stated that it was very difficult for a central authority to look after the sanitation of individual houses; but the duty of the central authority should be to keep the local authorities up to their duty in that respect. He thought that more might be done in that direction. At present the power of the local authorities or the central authority was not sufficient to enable them to house the people as civilised beings and members of a great Imperial race should be housed. The conditions of life in the Islands and Highlands of Scotland, and also in England, were not creditable; and it was only by steady and continuous pressure on the part of the central authority that the local authorities could be kept up to their duties in that respect. The local authorities were always thinking of expense; but expense did not enter into the question of keeping people in good health and enabling them to bring up their children properly. Money spent in that direction added more to the strength of the Empire than all the talk about Imperialism which had been heard in and out of that House. Nothing could more conduce to making the people of this country an Imperial race than by providing them with houses where morality and decency could be preserved. At present thousands of people lived in houses where morality was a miracle, and where decency was impossible. The Local Government Board for Scotland would be well advised to turn their attention to this matter; and he would urge on the Lord Advocate to use all the influence and the administrative powers he possessed in that direction.