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Commons Chamber

Volume 155: debated on Wednesday 4 April 1906

House of Commons

Wednesday, April 4, 1906

The House met at Two of the Clock.

Private Bill Business

Carlisle Corporation Bill, as amended, considered, to be read the third time.

County of Aberdeen (Monymusk Bridge and Road) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords], considered; to be read the third time upon Friday.

London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Bill, reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Petitions

Diseases of Animals Act (1896) Amendment Bill

Petitions in favour, from Aberdeen; Brighouse; Crieff, and other places; Kincardinshire (two); Norwich; Southampton; Stirling; Swansea; and, Workington; to lie upon the Table.

Land Values (Assessment and Rating) Bill

Petitions in favour, from Borrowstounness; and Carriden; to lie upon the Table.

Local Authorities (Qualification of Women) Bill

Petitions in favour, from Bethnal Green; Exmouth; Leicester; and, Wells; to lie upon the Table.

Local Authorities (Taxation and Purchase of Land) Bill

Petition from Shoreditch, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

Public Elementary Schools (Religious Teaching)

Petitions against alteration of Law, from Abbas; Ainsdale (two); Albury and Chilworth; Ancoats; Askham; Askham Bryan (two); Aston; Audenshawe; Aynhoe; Balderstone; Barmston; Bethnal Green; Bilton cum Bickerton; Birch (two); Blackburn (two); Blackmoor; Boningate; Bowden; Bramshott (two); Brockmoor; Burgh Castle (two); Burnham Thorpe (two); Chapel Allerton (two); Charwelton; Cheltenham (two); Chorley (two); Cirencester (eight); Clun; Connah's Quay; Crayke; Darrington; Drewsteignton; Dumbleton; Dursley; East Worldham (two); Eaton; Edenfield; Elstead; Fawsley; Firle (two); Flempton cum Hengrave (two); Foston (two); Gainsborough; Golcar (two); Grayswood; Green's Norton; Great and Little Eversden; Great Ringstead; Great Warley (two); Gressenhall; Guildford (three); Hale (two); Hambledon; Hardwicke; Haresfield; Haughley; Hayling Island; Hedge End (two); Hentland (two); Heywood; Hilton (two); Holloway; Horwich; Huddersfield (two); Ideford (two); Ingleby Greenlaw; Ingleton (two); Islington; Itchen Stoke; Lakenham; Lapworth; Lasham; Layer Breton; Liss (two); Little Burstead; Llangunnor (two); Longham; Long Horsley; Longstone (two); Lower Lemington; Loxbeare with Calverleigh; Maldon (two); Mapperley; Markyate (two); Masham; Middlesbrough; Morley; Much Dewchurch; New Windsor; North Bovey; Northill; Norwich (two); Nottingham; Nympsfield; Oldham Road; Old Street. St. Luke's; Parham; Parkgate (two) Patrington (two); Penrieth; Petersfield; Pool; Portchester; Portsmouth; Preston (two); Pyrton; Reymerston; Rickinghall; Rochdale (four); St. Albans; St. Paul, Northampton; Salford (two); Scotforth (two); Sittingbourne; South Levenshulme; Sproughton; Staverton; Stretford (two); Tewkesbury Abbey; Thirsk; Thorp Arch (two); Thursley (two); Todmorden (two); Thorncombe; Uplowman (two); Urmston;. Warminster; Wentbridge; Westmeon; Whilton; Wicken; Willingham and Crowborough (two); Winchcombe (two); Wingates; Winston; Withern; Witley (two); Wolverhampton; Wolverton St. George; Woolbeding; Wrestlington; and Yetminster with Chetnole(two);to lie upon the Table.

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sundays

Petitions for prohibition, from Birmingham (three); Broughton in Furness; Crewkerne; Great Malvern; Handsworth(three);Leicester; Middleport (two); Ramsbottom; and West Bromwich; to lie upon the Table.

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Monmouthshire)

Two petitions from Ramsbottom, for prohibition; to lie upon the Table.

Vaccination Act

Petition from Derby, for repeal; to lie upon the Table.

Returns, Reports, Etc

Hayes Urban District Council

Return [presented April 3rd] to be printed. [No. 109.]

Education (Scotland) (General Reports)

Copy presented, of General Report by the Chief Inspector of the Western Division of Scotland for the year 1905 [by command]; to lie upon the Table.

Public Elementary Schools

(SCHOLARSHIPS, &c.)

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered April 19th, 1905; Dr. Macnamara]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 110.]

Prices of Exported Coal

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered March 15th; Mr. David Thomas]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 111.]

Government Insurances and Annuities

Account presented, of all moneys received and of the disposal thereof, and of all contracts for the grant of deferred life annuities and for payments on death made, during the year 1905 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 112.]

Superannuation Act, 1884

Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated March 29th, 1906, declaring that Albert Brydges Tarn, assistant inspector or examiner of vaccine lymph, Privy Council Office, was appointed without a Civil Service certificate, through inadvertence on the part of the head of his department [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Return ordered, "as to the boroughs of Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, and West Ham, and the metropolitan borough of Holborn, showing the following particulars:—

—( Mr. John Tennant. )

One other Member took and subscribed the Oath.

Oral Questions to Answers

Questions and Answers Circulated With the Votes

Manning of the Navy

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state approximately the number of efficient Marines and the number of efficient seamen obtained from each hundred entries at ordinary enrolling age; and whether he can give any comparison of cost in respect of the two classes.

Boroughs (Rateable Value.)

Name of borough.

Rateable value of the whole of the rateable hereditaments in the borough.

Rateable hereditaments in the borough in respect of the occupation of which no persons are entered in the lists of electors of the borough councillors because the hereditaments are occupied by corporations or joint stock or other companies.

Rateable value of the hereditaments.

Number of corporations and companies in occupation.

1.

2.

3.

4.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The approximate number of efficient marines and of efficient seamen obtained from each hundred entries is eighty-seven and eighty respectively. The approximate cost of a marine, from the date of enlistment to the date of qualifying for efficiency allowance, after eighteen months service, is:—Royal Marine Artillery, £55 10s.; Royal Marine Light Infantry, £52 10s. The cost of a bluejacket, entered as a boy, up to the date of being rated A.B. (roughly a total of about four years), is approximately £155. In both cases the figures include pay and victualling only.

Australasian Squadron

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the total number of His Majesty's ships stationed in Australasian waters, including the ships belonging to the Special Australasian Squadron; what are the names of these ships; what is their total complement of men; what is their total annual cost, including interest at 3 per cent. and depreciation at 5 per cent. on cost of construction and armament; what is their annual expenditure in Australasian harbours; and what is the total sum contributed towards their maintenance by the Australasian Colonies.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The total number of His Majesty's ships stationed in Australasian waters is nine, namely: "Powerful" (Flag),"En-

Year.

Entries.

Promotions.

Artificer Engineers.

Chief Artificer Engineers.

1900–1

292

25

—

1901–2

235

39

—

1902–3

315

111

—

1903–4

406

105

37

1904–5

180

73

26

The entry of engine-room artificers has not been stopped, but all entries depend upon the requirements of the service; and their promotion to warrant rank counter," "Cambrian," "Challenger," "Pegasus," "Pioneer," "Prometheus," "Pyramus," and "Psyche." Their total complement is 3,424, including a certain number of men belonging to the Australian permanent force. The total annual cost, including interest at 3 per cent. and depreciation at 5 per cent. on cost of construction and armament, is approximately £670,000. It is not possible to state the expenditure in Australasian harbours. The total contribution received from the Australasian Colonies represents one-half of the total annual cost of maintenance, including 5 per cent. on the prime cost of the ships, up to a maximum contribution of £240,000 per annum.

Naval Engine-Room Artificers

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many engine-room artificers have been entered into the Navy; how many promoted to chief engine-room artificers, artificer engineers, and chief artificer engineers, respectively, in each year 1901–5 inclusive; and whether the entries of artificers and promotions to warrant rank are being continued on the same scale as hitherto, or have they been stopped altogether.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The numbers of engine-room artificers entered and promoted are as follows:—

is governed by the fleet requirements. An exceptional number of promotions to warrant rank have been made in the last few years for the purpose of building up the list, the rank being of recent institution; and, in future, advancement will be governed mainly by the necessity of filling vacancies.

Cost of Coal for the Fleet

:To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the cost of coal for the British Fleet during each of the last ten years, and also the cost of coal for the French and German Fleets during the same period.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The information asked for is as follows:—

Year.

Cost of Coal.

1.

2.

3.

British Fleet.

French Fleet.

German Fleet. *

£

£

£

1896–7

589,022

282,024

283,426

1897–8

792,477

256,292

286,883

1898-9

937,955

233,904

320,110

1899–1900

1,103,146

281,670

394,935

1900–1

1,684,604

264,357

450,393

1901–2

1,408,253

362,995

497,916

1902–3

1,307,904

403,748

530,195

1903–4

1,503,913

297,784

690,592

1904–5

1,485,688

299,281

725,351

1905–6 (estimated)

1,261,000

435,145

676,083

* In the case of column 3 the figures are those given in the German Naval Estimates for "driving machinery, cleaning, lighting, and various materials or stores for some." In the case of column 3 the figures are those given in the German Naval Estimates for "driving machinery, cleaning, lighting, and various materials or stores for some."

Figures in columns 2 and 3 are estimate figures.

Fines on Dublin Postmen

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the practice that exists in Dublin of fining postmen for late attendance on duty; that, in addition, the time so lost has to be worked up and is recorded against them; that in the case of Sunday, in addition to being fined, payment for the time lost is stopped; and whether he will state what is the rule bearing on late attendance, and what is done with the fines so collected.

( Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton. ) Late attendance on the part of postmen is dealt with by fine or by extra duty. The system in force at Dublin is that of fines. In the case of a late attendance on Sunday, a postman would only be paid for the time he actually worked in accordance with the general Post Office practice. It is not the case at Dublin that time lost by late attendance, whether on Sunday or on a week-day, has to be worked upon in addition to a fine. The fines collected for late attendance are devoted to institutions for the benefit of Post Office servants, or to the relief of individual cases of distress among Post Office servants or their widows and children.

Established Sub-postmaster

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will include the established sub-postmasters (head office scale) in the inquiry as to pay and promotion.

( Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton. ) Since the formation of the class of salaried sub-postmasters there have been six appointments from that class to the class of head postmasters. Appointments to head postmasterships are filled by the selection of the most suitable candidates, and I do not think it would be expedient to reserve any proportion of such appointments for any particular section of offices.

Load Line

To ask the President of the Board of Trade to what extent foreign Governments have, under Section 734 of The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, made request for the British load-line to be applied to foreign vessels.

( Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George. ) No foreign Government has yet made request for the British load-line to be applied to their vessels by Order in Council under Section 734 of The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, but the British load-line has been voluntarily adopted in numerous individual cases, and negotiations are proceeding with Germany with a view to an arrangement being arrived at under which each country will accept load-lines assigned by the other.

Motor Traffic in the Metropolis

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received complaints from householders in residential parts of London, as to disturbance caused by noise, vibration, and dust, owing to the rapid development of motor traffic; whether the police have power to regulate the times and amount of motor omnibus traffic; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone. ) I have received several complaints, but I am advised that, as the law stands, the police have no power to control either the times or the amount of motor omnibus traffic. Some opportunity of dealing with this matter may be found in connection with future Bills relating to London traffic and to motor cars.

Regent Street Motor Car Accident

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to an accident recently caused by a motor car in Regent Street, when a horse was allowed to lie dying in torture for an hour and a half in the public roadway; and whether some arrangement can be made to prevent in future such suffering by putting wounded horses out of their agony promptly.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone. ) The accident in question occurred at 11.20 p.m. The police immediately summoned a horse slaughterer and a veterinary surgeon. Owing to the lateness of the hour there was unfortunately some delay in finding the horse slaughterer, but the veterinary surgeon came at once, and did all that he could till the slaughterer arrived. The police have the most stringent instructions to act promptly in such cases, and are in telephonic communication with the slaughterers, with whom they have standing arrangements for immediate attendance, and I believe that in this case they did everything that was possible in the circumstances.

Local Government Pensioners

To ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will obtain a Return, and submit it to the House, of the number of pensioners on the funds of the local authorities throughout the United Kingdom.

( Answered by Mr. John Burns. ) Perhaps my hon. friend will be so good as to send me the terms of a Motion showing precisely the particulars he desires. I shall be happy then to consider the question of obtaining a Return so far as England and Wales are concerned. As regards Scotland and Ireland, the matter is one for the Secretary for Scotland and the Chief Secretary for Ireland.

Miniature Rifle Clubs

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the advisability of exempting miniature rifle clubs, affiliated to the Rifle Club Association, from the obligation of taking out gun licences now imposed upon them, provided the rifles are strictly confined to practice in connection with the club.

( Answered by Mr. Asquith. ) It is already the practice to exempt all members of a rifle club (or miniature rifle club) affiliated to the National; Rifle Association from gun licence duty; in respect of rifles used only at the rifle ranges.

Indian Budget

To ask the Secretary of State for India if, in view of the military policy announced last week by the Viceroy of India in the Budget debate, a policy involving expenditure on a large scale, the Government will afford the House an early opportunity to discuss the situation in India.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley. ) The usual discussion of the Indian Estimates and Accounts will be taken at as early a date as the business of the session permits; and I propose to include the subject to which the hon. Member refers in the general survey of Indian affairs which I hope to make on that occasion.

Army Officers as Candidates for Parliament

To ask the Secretary of State for India whether the regulations governing the candidature for the House of Commons for officers of the British Regular Army apply equally to the Indian Army; and, if not, whether he will take steps to assimilate the two services in this respect.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley. ) There has been, so far as I am aware, no case of the kind referred to in the Question. If such a case should occur, which, from the nature of the circumstances, hardly seems probable, it will no doubt be dealt with as nearly as may be on the lines laid down for officers of the British Army.

Army Promotion

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the block to promotion caused by the retention on the strength of regiments of officers of the rank of major who have foregone regimental promotion in order to retain staff appointments, he will consider the advisability of placing these officers upon the special list of officers extra-regimentally employed.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) Careful consideration has been given to the point raised by my hon. friend, but I am afraid that I cannot undertake to adopt his suggestion.

Irish Rating Laws

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a resolution from the Belturbet Urban District Council asking for an amendment of the rating laws, so as to place the responsibility for rates of houses valued at £4 and under upon the landlords of these premises; and, if so, will he introduce legislation to deal with this state of the law.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) I have received the resolution referred to. I understand that the Local Government Act of 1898 was founded upon the principle that the occupier should be rated, and the agricultural grant was given upon this understanding. In the opinion of the Local Government Board, the fundamental change suggested in the resolution is neither practicable nor desirable. I am not prepared, having regard to the difficulties which surround the question, to undertake to introduce any legislation.

Imprisonment for Contempt of Court

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a resolution from the Cavan Rural District Council and Board of Guardians expressing regret at the imprisonment of their chairman, Mr. T. J. Smith, J.P., Mr. Fitzpatrick, a member of the board, and Mr. Mulligan, and asking the Government to introduce legislation with a view to affording every citizen the constitutional right to trial by jury and protection from imprisonment for contempt of Court.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The Answer is in the affirmative. I may refer the hon. Member to the Answers which I have given to previous Questions upon this subject.†

Canadian Cattle

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a resolution from the Rathkenny Braid, and Cloughmills Dairy Society, Limited, condemning any attempted interference with the existing restrictions on the importation of Canadian cattle, on the grounds of the consequent reduction in prices of stock and probable introduction of diseases; and will he resist any attempt at legislation tending to relax the restrictions now in force.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The resolution referred to has been received. As to the latter inquiry, I beg to refer to the Answer which I gave to a similar Question put by the hon. Member for East Donegal on March 27th.‡

Glenarm Relieving Officer

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Local Government Board has made any inquiries with regard to the recent election of a relieving officer for the Glenarm division of the Larne Rural District Council, county Antrim; whether the candidate who received a majority of votes was at the time of the election disqualified; and what steps it is intended to take in the matter.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The Local Government Board are making inquiries concerning Mr. Robert M'Gowan, who was elected by the board of guardians of Larne union as relieving officer for the Glenarm district. Mr. M'Gowan's appointment will not be sanctioned until the Local Government Board have satisfied themselves that he has parted with his interest in a licensed hotel of which he was the owner.

Coloured Immigrants in New South Wales

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give particulars of a statute passed by the Legislature of the self-governing Colony of New South Wales in 1896, entitled an Act to apply and extend certain provisions of the Chinese Restriction and Regulation Act of 1888 to other coloured races; and whether this statute was reserved and vetoed by the Crown.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) The New South Wales Reserved Bill (No. 41) of 1896 provided that no vessel should bring to the Colony persons "belonging to any coloured race inhabiting the Continent of Asia or the Continent of Africa, or any island adjacent thereto, or any island in the Pacific Ocean or the Indian Ocean," in a greater proportion than one such person to every 300 tons of the tonnage of such vessel. It also imposed a poll tax of £100 on every such person landing. The Bill was reserved for the signification of the Royal pleasure, and, upon the advice of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, then Colonial Secretary, it did not receive the assent of the Crown, and was superseded by subsequent legislation which substituted an educational test for all persons entering the Colony for restrictive measures directed against particular races.

Coloured Immigrants in South Australia

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give particulars of a statute passed by the Legislature of the self-governing Colony of South Australia in 1896 (No. 672), entitled an Act for the Restriction of Coloured Immigration; and whether this Act was reserved and vetoed by the Crown.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) The South Australian Reserved Bill (No. 1672 provided that no vessel should bring to the Colony "coloured immigrants" (which phrase included all persons of coloured race, and their descendants, inhabiting the Continent of Asia, or the Continent of Africa, or any island adjacent thereto, or any island in the Pacific Ocean or Indian Ocean) in a greater proportion than one such immigrant to every 500 tons of the tonnage of such vessel. The Bill was reserved for the signification of the Royal pleasure, and upon the advice of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, then Colonial Secretary, it did not receive the assent of the Crown. Legislation by the Commonwealth Parliament superseded the provisions of the Bill, and substituted a language test of general application for specific racial distinctions.

Coloured Immigrants in Tasmania

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give particulars of a statute passed by the Legislature of the self-governing Colony of Tasmania in 1896 (cap. 55), entitled an Act to apply and extend the provisions of The Chinese Immigration Act, 1887, to certain other coloured races; whether this statute was reserved; and whether the assent of the Crown was finally given.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) The Tasmanian Reserved Bill (No. 55) of 1896 provided in effect, besides certain minor restrictions, that no vessel should bring male persons belonging to any coloured race inhabiting the Continent of Asia or the Continent of Africa, or any island adjacent thereto, or any island in the Pacific Ocean or the Indian Ocean, in greater numbers than in the proportion of one such person to every hundred tons of the tonnage of the vessels bringing them. It also imposed a poll tax of £10 on every such person landing. The Bill did not apply to British subjects. It was reserved for the signification of the Queen's pleasure and upon the advice of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, then Colonial Secretary, the assent of the Crown was not finally given to it, as it was superseded by subsequent legislation, which substituted an educational test for all persons entering the Colony for restrictive measures directed against particular races.

Aliens in New Zealand

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give particulars of a statute passed by the Legislature of the self-governing Colony of New Zealand in 1896 (cap. 64), entitled an Act to prevent the influx into New Zealand of persons of alien race who are likely to be hurtful to the public welfare; whether this statute was reserved; and whether the assent of the Crown was finally given.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) The New Zealand Reserved Bill (No. 64) of 1896 provided that no vessel should bring Asiatics to the Colony in a proportion greater than one for every 200 tons of the tonnage of such vessel; and it also provided for the imposition of a poll-tax on the master of the vessel of £100 for every Asiatic landing. The Bill did not apply to British Indians. It was reserved for the signification of the Royal pleasure, upon the advice of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham, then Colonial Secretary. The assent of the Crown was not finally given to the Bill, as it was superseded by subsequent legislation which substituted an educational test for all persons entering the Colony for restrictive measure directed against particular races.

Port of Spain

To ask the Under-secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the intention of the Government as to the re-establishment of the charter of the Port of Spain Borough Council, which was abolished by the Secretary of State for the Colonies in 1899; and whether, seeing that the members of this council discharged their duties honorarily, whereas under the present management the taxpayers' money is used in paying assessors, and that the finances of the Colony of Trinidad show a deficiency of £33,000, he will consider the advisability of rendering the borough council totally elective.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) The question of the municipal government of Port of Spain has been discussed by the Legislative Council of the Colony. The debate had not concluded at the date of the latest advices which have reached the Secretary of State, but the Council had passed a Resolution in favour of the appointment of a nominated Board. The Secretary of State will await the Governor's recommendations. As the municipal revenue and expenditure of Port of Spain is wholly distinct from the general revenue and expenditure of the Colony, the fact that the Colonial expenditure during the financial year 1905–6 was recently estimated to have exceeded the Colonial revenue for the same period by £33,000 has no bearing on the state of the municipal finances or the form of municipal Government.

Egypt

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will lay before Parliament any correspondence relating to the territorial limits of the Khedive's authority east of the Suex Canal which may have taken place between the Foreign Office and the British Agency at Cairo, or between the Foreign Office and the Turkish Government in 1892 or at any subsequent date.

( Answered by Sir Edward Grey. ) It would be undesirable to publish any further Papers on the subject at the present juncture. If the hon. Baronet desires it, I will send him copies of the documents published in the year referred to.

Cattle Disease—Compulsory Slaughter

To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he could state what the average cost per annum was for paying compensation for animals slaughtered when suffering from, or being in contact with animals suffering from, pleuro-pneumonia, foot-and-mouth disease, and cattle plague; and what was the total amount paid in such compensation between the years 1860 and 1900.

( Answered by Sir Edward Strachey. ) We are not in a position to supply the information desired by the hon. Member prior to 1890, but since that year the total compensation paid in respect of pleuro-pneumonia and foot-and-mouth disease has amounted to £387,514. No expenditure was incurred on account of cattle plague during that period. The amounts paid vary so much from year to year that it would be misleading to give an average, but I may state that the amount paid in 1891–2 was as much as £151,491, whereas during the last four years the amount has been only £8.

Prices of Stock and Meat

:.To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he would state what has been the average price of meat and the average price of store cattle in Great Britain for each year for the last fifteen years.

( Answered by Sir Edward Strachey. ) The Board have no official records of the prices of meat or of store cattle for so long a period as fifteen years, but the following table, compiled from the best available unofficial records, and, in the case of imported meat, from the Customs Returns will, I think, afford my hon. friend the information he desires.

Index numbers of Prices of Fat and Store Stock and of Dead Meat, 1891 to 1905.(Prices for 1891–100.)

Year.

Store Cattle.

Fat Cattle at Metropolitan Market. First Quality.

Fat sheep at Metropolitan Market. First Quality.

Beef (Mean Price at London Central Market).

Mutton (Mean Price at London Central Market).

Imported Fresh Beef.

Imported Fresh Mutton.

1891

100

100

100

100

100

100

100

1892

87

97

96

95

99

101

103

1893

93

97

93

97

95

101

99

1894

102

92

100

91

98

95

96

1895

107

92

101

94

101

93

89

1896

95

90

93

85

90

90

82

1897

94

92

97

96

94

91

77

1898

92

86

94

92

95

91

75

1899

93

93

97

96

99

92

80

1900

103

98

103

104

105

94

87

1901

98

93

97

97

99

94

93

1902

103

100

99

114

104

101

96

1903

103

95

100

103

116

96

99

1904

103

93

101

101

118

88

99

1905

92

93

101

97

112

84

97

I shall be glad to supply him personally with statements as to the actual course of prices during the years in question. They are somewhat too elaborate to be printed in reply to a Question. I would also refer him to the reply given to the hon. Member for Merthyr on February 27th last,† as to the prices of British cattle and sheep for 1890–2 and 1893–1905, and of beef and mutton in the period from 1872–1905.

Cattle Disease in Canada

To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will state what diseases of cattle are known now to exist in Canada.

( Answered by Sir Edward Strachey. ) The most recently-published Report of the Veterinary Director - General for the Dominion indicates that the following diseases of cattle were known to exist in Canada during the year ending October 31st, 1904, viz.: tuberculosis, pictou cattle disease, mange, anthrax, black-quarter, actinomycosis, and actinobacillosis. Of these anthrax is the only disease which is at present included in the definition of disease for the purpose of our own Diseases of Animals Acts.

Parcels Postmen's Weights

To ask the Postmaster-General whether any arrangements can be made with respect to the carrying of heavy parcel post by postmen which will prevent the postmen from being overloaded beyond a certain weight.

( Answered by Sydney Buxton. ) Instructions have long been in force that postmen must not be overburdened with heavy parcels. If the hon. Member will be good enough to inform me of any case within his knowledge in which the men are overburdened, I shall be very pleased to have inquiry made.

Kilmarnock Post Office

To ask the Postmaster General whether his attention has been called to the accommodation at the present Post Office at Kilmarnock; and whether, seeing that a new site has been acquired some two years ago, that the lease of the present buildings runs out next year, and that, unless the new buildings for which the plans and estimates are prepared are put in hand shortly, they will not be available till after the lease has run out, he will, to avoid expense that would be incurred in transferring wires to another temporary building, consider the urgency of putting the new buildings in hand without delay.

( Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton. ) The need for better accommodation for the business of the Post Office at Kilmarnock has not been overlooked, and I am making arrangements which will, I hope, render it possible to begin the new building in time to ensure its completion before the lease of the present office runs out.

Dumbarton Post Office

To ask the Postmaster-General, whether his attention has been called to the inconvenience of the site proposed for a new Post Office at Dumbarton; whether he is aware that the burgh is spreading rapidly towards the east, and therefore in the direction remote from the proposed site; that for the western district of the burgh inconvenience is caused by the river cutting off direct access; and will he say whether, in estimating the expense involved in securing a proper site, due consideration has been given to the fact that the burgh is commercial and industrial, and is in a condition of rapid expansion.

( Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton. ) The question of a site for a new Post Office at Dumbarton has received very careful consideration, and I am now in communication with the local authorities in the hope of securing a site which will meet with the approval of the inhabitants, and at the same time will not be unduly costly.

Civil Assistants in the Ordnance Survey

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if, in view of the character of the work discharged by the temporary civil assistants of the Ordnance Survey, the Treasury will agree to the proposal that any temporary civil assistant who has not less than fifteen years service in the Ordnance Survey shall, in consideration of that length of service, be placed upon the pensionable list, and become entitled, with the other permanent employees, to the rights of superannuation.

( Answered by Mr. McKenna. ) I have already stated that the position of the civil assistants in the Ordnance Survey is under consideration.

Keady and Armagh Railway

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the first arbitration in the case of the Castleblayney, Keady, and Armagh Railway Company took place in or about May last, and the second arbitration in September last; and if he will bring pressure to bear on the railway company or the arbitrators to have the awards published, as the tenants affected are in state of suspense as to the result, and in the meantime are deprived of the use of their land.

( Answered by McKenna. ) I have no knowledge as to the meetings referred to. Neither the arbitrator nor the promoters are under the authority of the Board of Works, but the former has stated that he is anxious to expedite matters, and it will be suggested to him that he should publish his award as regards the cases which secondary school for girls must be under a mistress.

Girls' School Grants

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether, in the event of an educational authority deciding to convert a mixed pupil teachers' school under a master into a secondary school for girls, the Board of Education would continue to pay the grant if the services of the master be retained.

( Answered by Mr. Birrell. ) The practice of the Board is to require that a he has decided, leaving the others to be published in a supplementary award.

Cost of Public Vaccination

To ask the President of the Local Government Board what amount was paid to public vaccinators in each of the three years 1895, 1896, and 1897, and for the last three years respectively.

( Answered by Mr. John Burns. ) The only available information as to the amount of the fees paid to public vaccinators in England and Wales during the past ten years is that contained in the Report of the Departmental Committee on vaccination expenses, which shows the amounts paid during two periods of four years, viz:—

Period.

Primary Vaccinations.

Revaccinations.

Fees.

Four years ended Lady Day, 1899.

1,262,576

106,783

£149,338

Four years ended Lady Day, 1903.

2,016,666

1,168,058

£930,804

In addition, public vaccinators received by way of grant from councils of counties and county boroughs £52,525, and £49,123 during the two periods above-mentioned.

Certificated Elementary Teachers

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if he can state the number of certificated teachers in English elementary schools, male and female respectively, distinguishing those who have been educated in board schools from those who have been educated in voluntary schools.

( Answered by Mr. Birrell. ) I have no information on the subject.

To ask the President of the Board of Education if he will state the number of teachers in English elementary schools, distinguishing male and female, who have been trained in denominational colleges, have teen trained in other training colleges, or are untrained respectively.

( Answered by Mr. Birrell. ) The number of certificated teachers in employment at the end of the statistical year 1903–4 was, trained men, 19,437; trained women, 21,973; untrained men, 7,823; untrained women, 25,487. The Board have no information as to what proportion of the trained teachers were trained at denominational and undenominational colleges respectively.

Hyde Park Roads

To ask the First Commissioner of Works if he will state what has been the average expenditure per mile during the last five years on the roads in Hyde Park, and the total expenditure during the same period; and whether he will give some account of the way in which the roads in Hyde Park are repaired and of the materials used for this purpose.

( Answered by Mr. Harcourt. ) The total expenditure on the maintenance of the roads in Hyde Park during the last five years cannot be accurately dissociated from other expenditure on roads generally in the central parks, but it has been approximately £22,000, and the average expenditure per mile per annum £1,100. The roads are first scarified, then remetalled with Guernsey granite, machine-broken to a two-inch gauge, rolled with fifteen-ton rollers, and finally dressed with gravel.

New Government Buildings

To ask the First Commissioner of Works if there are any Government buildings in Whitehall for which towers were originally designed but which have been abandoned by his predecessors.

( Answered by Mr. Harcourt. ) Yes, towers formed part of the design for the buildings now occupied by the Home Office and Local Government Board, but they have never been completed.

Naval Manœauvres

To ask the; Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the average cost of manœuvres during the last ten years; and what is the estimated costs for this year.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) It is not possible to state with any degree of accuracy the average cost of manœuvres, but so far as can be ascertained, the average net annual cost during the last ten years, 1896–7 to 1905–6, would appear to be £78,000.The estimated cost for this year is £150,000.

Engine Room Artificer

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what mechanical apprenticeship an engine-room artificer is required to serve before entry into the Navy; whether the examination on entry corresponds very closely to that of second engineer in the mercantile marine; and whether the Admiralty have any reason to believe that the system of conceding watch-keeping duties to this class has worked, unsatisfactorily, either in the Navy or in the mercantile marine, from which the Navy draws its reserve of engineer officers.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The Regulations do not require an engine-room artificer to serve any mechanical apprenticeship before entry. The examination on entry provides for candidates possessing an adequate knowledge of certain mechanical trades, and, as far as possible, of the working of steam engines and boilers. Those who hold Board of Trade certificates as first or second engineers may, under certain conditions, be entered without any professional examination. As regards the last part of the Question, the Admiralty have no means of knowing what the experience in the mercantile marine may be, but so far as the Navy is concerned the Answer is in the negative.

Naval Stokers

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty at what age a stoker-mechanician enters the Navy as stoker; whether there is any educational test or requirement as to mechanical training on entry; and whether, in view of the duties of watchkeepers which it is proposed to transfer from the engine-room artificers to the stoker-mechanicians promoted from the continuous service stokers who are less than twenty-eight years of age, any changes are to be made in regard to examinations on entry.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The average age of entry is twenty. There is no mechanical or educational test, but the candidate must be able to read and write fairly. The answer to the last part of the Question is in the negative.

Workmen's Compensation Act

TO ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether, under the proviso dealing with dependents in Clause 13 of the Workmen's Compensation Bill, it is intended that the mother of an illegitimate son should be entitled to sue for compensation for his death by accident.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone. ) The Answer is in the negative.

Flogging Indian Natives

To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that flogging as a punishment is inflicted by magistrates on the natives; and whether he will introduce Regulations to prevent flogging in future.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley. ) I am aware that flogging is a punishment authorised by the Criminal Law of India in certain cases. My predecessor, rather more than a year ago, had occasion to call the attention of the Government of India to the subject, and I am now inviting their early consideration of it.

Tibet

To ask the Secretary of State for India the name and official designation and status of the Tibetan Shape who has been deputed to Calcutta to arrange for the payment of the first instalment of the Tibetan indemnity.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley. ) The official deputed to Calcutta by the Tibetan Government is the Sechung Shape, who is understood to be the senior of the four Shapes, or members of the Lhasa Executive Council. I am not aware of his name.

South African Garrisons

To ask the Secretary of State for War what alterations in the permanent garrisons at South African stations have taken place since the reply, showing the permanent garrisons in full, given to an unstarred Question on the 15th April, 1904†.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) Distribution of troops in South Africa—

April, 1904.

January, 1906.

Transvaal:

Pretoria

1 regiment Cavalry.

1 regiment Cavalry.

2 batteries R.H.A.

2 batteries R.H.A.

1 field troop R.E.

1 field troop R.E.

1 field company R.E.

1 field company R.E.

1 telegraph section R.E.

1 telegraph section R.E.

2 battalions Infantry, Line.

3 battalions Infantry.

1 battalion Infantry R.G.R.

Middelburg

1 regiment M.I.

1 regiment M.I.

1 battery R.F.A.

1 battery R.F.A.

1½ battalion Infantry, Line.

1½ battalion Infantry.

Potchefstroom

1 regiment Cavalry.

1 regiment Cavalry.

3 batteries R.F.A.

3 batteries R.F.A.

1 field company R.E.

1 field company R.E.

1 battalion Infantry, Line.

1 battalion Infantry.

Standerton

1 regiment M.I.

1 regiment M.I.

1 battery R.F.A. (and Brigade headquarters).

1 battery R.F.A.

1 battalion Infantry R.G.R.

1 battalion Infantry.

Barberton

½battalion Infantry, Line

½battalion Infantry.

Orange River Colony:

Bloemfontein

1 regiment Cavalry.

1 regiment Cavalry.

3 batteries R.F.A.

3 batteries R.F.A.

1 field company, R.D.

1 field company, R.E.

2 battalions Infantry, Line.

3 battalions Infantry.

1 battalion Infantry, R.G.R.

Harrismith

1 regiment M.I.

1 regiment M.I.

1 battery R.F.A.

1 battery R.F.A.

1 battalion Infantry.

1 battalion Infantry.

Natal

—

1 battalion Infantry,†

Cape Colony:

Middleburg

1 regiment Cavalry.

1 regiment Cavalry.

3 batteries R.F.A.

3 batteries R F.A.

1 field company R.E.

1 field company R.E.

1 battalion Infantry, Line.

1 fortress company R.E.

1 battalion Infantry.

Naval Base

2 companies R.G.A.

2 companies R.G.A.

1 fortress company R.E.

battalion Infantry.

2 battalions Infantry, Line.

—

†This battalion is the list remaining battalion of the Royal Garrison Regiment, present strength about 140.

Practically the only alterations in the South African garrison since April, 1904, are: the temporary removal of one Fortress company, Royal Engineers from Cape Town to Middelburg, Cape Colony, and the removal of one infantry battalion from Cape Colony to Natal.

Gibraltar and Malta Garrisons

To ask the Secretary of State for War what is the total number of troops of all descriptions, including Militia, at Gibraltar and Malta, and to what extent does this number represent an increase in the last ten years; whether Gibraltar and Malta are each provisioned for a siege of long duration; and, if so, whether the present War Office consider such preparations to be necessary, in view of the strength of the Royal Navy.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) In the interests of imperial defence it is not considered expedient to give any information regarding the garrison or means of defence of fortresses. I am not therefore able to give a reply to this Question.

Militia and Volunteer Recruits

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can give any figures as to the normal occupations of the great bulk of the men belonging to the Militia and the Volunteers; or, failing that, whether he can give the information for typical regiments; and whether, in recruiting for the Militia and Volunteers, endeavours are made to avoid taking men from collieries, railways, docks, and shipbuilding establishments and industries.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) There are no detailed statistics available at the War Office to enable me to give the information required in regard to the Militia and Volunteers. As regards the last part of the Question, recruiting for these forces is carried on in the open market, and men can come from any trade.

Questions in the House

The Natal Crisis

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what were the irregularities upon which the Government relied in postponing the sentence under martial law inflicted upon natives convicted of murdering British officials.

* : The ground on which the action of the Secretary of State was based has been fully explained to Parliament and can easily be ascertained by my hon. friend upon reference to Hansard.

Do the Government propose to lay Papers relating to this subject on the Table, and if so, when?

* : The Secretary of State proposes to lay on the Table Papers in regard to the whole of the recent events in Natal, but it is hoped to include a despatch, now in the course of preparation, which would fittingly terminate the correspondence on this subject. That will probably make it impossible for the Papers to be laid until the House meets after Easter.

Will the Papers include the evidence given before the court-martial?

* : I cannot say at present, but inquiries are being made, and the Government have requested that the evidence shall be forwarded. If it should arrive in time I will see whether it can be included in the Papers.

Can martial law be proclaimed in a country where there is no state of war?

Uganda Railway

* : I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the working expenses of the Uganda Railway, during the financial year ended the 31st ultimo, show a profit; and, if so, to what it amounts.

The actual results of the working of the Uganda Railway for the past financial year have not yet been reported, but on February 21st the manager estimated that the receipts would exceed the working expenses by £50,000.

Nigerian Expedition

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a punitive expedition despatched by the High Commissioner of Northern Nigeria against the Munshis, who in January last sacked the Niger Company's station at Abinsi, was stopped by orders of the Imperial Government, and, after remaining inactive in the enemy's country for some time, was withdrawn without accomplishing its purpose; and whether, in view of the attitude of the Munshis, it will now be necessary to despatch a larger expedition to deal with them.

* : The expedition despatched to punish the outrage committed by certain of the Munshis at Abinsi was not stopped by orders of the Imperial Government, but carried out its instructions, and is reported by Sir F. Lugard to have returned "completely successful" after but little fighting, the tribes implicated in the attack on Abinsi having submitted. What was stopped was a more extensive expedition into the Munshi country, which had been contemplated, but does not now appear to be necessary.

asked if it was the policy of His Majesty's Government to discourage punitive expeditions.

* : Most certainly; the Government wish to discourage this and all forms of military operations in West Africa, and all other parts of the British Empire under the authority of the Imperial Government.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether it would not be possible, seeing what the London Press is at the moment, for the Government to send out negations of the abominable lies that are published?

Could the names of Reuters correspondents in Africa be given, could they be identified?

* : I think the Question is an extremely important one, and I can assure the hon. Member that the state of the information sent to Africa does receive the careful consideration of the Government. I admit it causes no little anxiety that the Press in the Colonies is largely under the influence of one particular section of opinion, and that not the predominant section of opinion in the country.

Chinese Police Methods in South African Mines

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official information showing that a Chinaman, Li Kui, who was sergeant of police at the Langlaate Mine, was in the habit of torturing the Chinese coolies employed there, hanging them by their thumbs and whipping them, and also dealt largely in opium and gin; and, if so, what steps have been taken to effectually put a stop to such practices.

* : The Secretary of State has no information to this effect, but is expecting a full Report by mail. The information so far received is to the effect that this person was ordered to be repatriated under Section 7 of the Ordinance No. 27 of 1905, under which the superintendent may repatriate any labourer who is a danger to the exercise of the proper control of labourers on any mine. He left the Transvaal on March 24th. Inquiry will be made into the truth of the hon. Member's statement and as to any steps which have been taken.

Chinese Crime in South Africa

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the statement made by Mr. Chaplin, the president of the Transvaal Chamber of Mines, at the annual general meeting on February 22nd last, that nineteen inhabitants of the Transvaal had been murdered by Chinese coolies, of whom eight were white people; and whether the Government is now able to give the promised Return of all the crimes committed since last June upon the people of the Transvaal by Chinese labourers in the mines.

(1) I have seen the statement referred to. (2) The promised Return has not yet been received from Lord Selborne. A telegram has been sent to him asking when the information may be expected.

Baghdad Railway Scheme

* : I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make inquiries as to the progress of the Baghdad Railway scheme since the first section was completed in 1904; and whether he will communicate such information as he may obtain.

THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD
(Mr. RUNCIMAN, Dewsbury, for Sir EDWARD GREY)

As we are not parties to the scheme, we have no means of knowing anything, except the actual progress of the railway, of which the first section has been completed, and that is all so far. When any more progress is made we shall be kept informed.

Zanzibar

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the port of Zanzibar is now free from plague; and, if so, whether the ports of German East Africa have been reopened to sailing vessels arriving from Zanzibar.

Zanzibar was declared free from plague on November 23rd. Dhow traffic between Zanzibar bar and the port of Dar-es-Salaam has been reopened, subject to certain sanitary precautions.

Mallaig Breakwater

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the North British Railway Company has not yet carried out the construction of a breakwater at Mallaig, part of the agreement with the Government; if he is aware that in consequence of the want of this breakwater the fishing fleet at Mallaig has recently, on more than one occasion, been seriously damaged; and, seeing that the owners of the fishing boats threaten to leave the district, will he call upon the railway company to complete the terms of their agreement with the least possible delay.

The Board of Trade have been informed by the railway company that there is no probability of the breakwater at Mallaig being completed before April, 1907. The Board have no power to compel the company to execute the works, which, I understand, have been delayed owing to the extra cost of the railway beyond what was estimated. My right hon. friend the Secretary for Scotland will deal with the rest of the Question.

Shipping of Foreign Seamen

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the proceedings taken in the Ramsgate Borough police court, on March 28th, against two foreign seamen, members of the crew of the ship "Vivid," in the course of which the captain of the ship stated that the men were shipped at Sunderland at wages at £2 10s. and £2 respectively for the voyage, through a boarding-master, to whom the captain paid £1 for one man and £1 5s. for the other, that they did not understand their duties as seamen, that they did not understand the commands given to them, that the captain had to manage as best he could by motioning to them, and that the men had not signed on before any officer; whether it is permitted to the masters of ships to engage such men in British ports without taking them before a superintendent; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter.

* : My attention has been called to the case to which the hon. Member refers. The vessel in question is employed in the home trade and is therefore not required to engage her crew before a superintendent or other Board of Trade officer. The master states that the sums of £1 and £1 5s. were merely given as advances to enable the men to settle their accounts for board and lodging. As I have said, there is nothing in the law to require such men to be taken before a superintendent when engaged.

District Railway Delays

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the number of accidents caused by the breaking of axles on the District Railway; whether he has inquired as to the cause of those breakages, and what steps has he taken to obviate such accidents in the future; whether he can give any information as to the makers of the faulty axles; and whether any other electric railway has had similar experience with regard to their axles.

My attention has been called to the matter, and I have appointed an Inspecting Officer of Railways to inquire into the causes of two of the breakages. I have also pointed out to the Metropolitan District Railway Company the urgent necessity for taking measures to prevent such accidents in future. I understand that the axles broken have been those of the trailing bogies of the motor vehicles, and that no time is being lost by the company in replacing all such axles with others of a stronger type. More than a third have been replaced already, and the whole of the work should be accomplished in less than six weeks. The axles were made by Krupp at Essen. The number of broken axles reported to the Board since the beginning of 1904 on all electrically worked lines, other than the District Railway, has been seven.

Mail Cart Contracts

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General when the tenders for supply of horses and men for mail and parcel post work will be invited; and whether, before inviting such tenders, or agreeing upon any tenders, he will receive a memorial or a deputation from the London Carmen's Trade Union, representing the workmen concerned, on the working conditions, rates of wages, and hours of labour of such carmen, and others, working; for the said contractors.

It is not at present necessary to call for tenders for mail cart services in London, but I shall be glad to receive and to consider at any time any memorial or information which the London Carmen's Trade Union may send me in the interest of the carmen employed by the contractors on mail services.

London West Central District Office— Sorters' Appeal

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if an appeal from Mr. P. J. Walsh, sorter, London West Central District Office, has been received, and on what grounds and on what report his probationary period and increment had been extended for three months; and whether he is making inquiries in accordance with Mr. Walsh's appeal.

An appeal from Mr. Walsh has been received. I have already made full inquiry into the matter; and I am satisfied that his complaints are unfounded. His probationary period had been extended, and his increment deferred on reports that he had shown lack of energy and of interest in his work.

West Central District Office—Inspector's Attitude to Irishmen

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the attitude of the senior inspector, sorting office, West Central District Office, London, towards the Irishmen engaged at that office; and what steps he intends taking to terminate such a state of things.

I am assured that no complains has been received from any class of officers at the West Central District Office, concerning the Inspector in question; and I am satisfied that there are no grounds for such complaint against him.

Newcastle-on-Tyne Post Office—Scales of Pay

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General upon what grounds are the scales of pay of the Newcastle-on-Tyne postal and telegraph staff officials less than those obtaining at Leeds and Bristol.

The scale of the sorting clerks and telegraphists is the same at the three offices named. The pay of superintending officers varies in accordance with the total amount of work performed at each office. At New-castle-on-Tyne the amount of work is considerably less than at either Leeds or Bristol.

Telegraphic Arrangements at Newcastle -on-Tyne

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that inconvenience is suffered in the extensive and populous eastern district of Newcastle-on-Tyne for lack of adequate postal and telegraphic facilities; that many business people and seafaring families reside there, and cannot get stamps or send off telegrams after 8 p.m. without going a distance of two to three miles; and will he arrange for the telegraph office to be open all day and night, and the postal facilities to be in keeping with the needs of the district.

I will have inquiry made in regard to the hon. Member's suggestion that additional post and telegraph facilities at night are required in the eastern district of Newcastle-on-Tyne.

Criminal Procedure in Ireland

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he is aware that counsel representing the Law Officers of the Crown in Criminal trials in Ireland, even when the prisoner has not called witnesses or put in evidence, exercise a general right of reply; and whether, seeing that in the English criminal courts the exercise in such cases of a general right of reply is restricted to the Attorney-General or Solicitor-General alone in criminal cases conducted by them in person, and is rarely used, and has frequently been exercised by gentlemen holding the positions of Law Officers of the Crown as an invidious personal privilege, he will, with a view to assimilate the practice in England and Ireland, give directions to counsel representing him in criminal cases not to have recourse to an exceptional procedure permitted to the Law Officers of the Crown in England to the exclusion of all other counsel by a resolution of the English judiciary in December, 1884.

It is, no doubt, as a general rule, desirable that the practice in criminal trials in Ireland should be similar to that in England, but it is not within the province of the Attorney - General to regulate the procedure in such cases. Should the attention of the Irish Judges be drawn to the Resolution of the English judiciary referred to by the hon. Member, I have no doubt that they would give to it all the consideration due to the expression of the opinion of so eminent a body.

"Showing Cause."

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether, in view of the fact that in Ireland a man summoned by the Crown to show cause why he should not be bound over to keep the peace and be of good behaviour, is not allowed to give evidence to show such cause, and may be imprisoned, he will have such law amended so as to enable a man, under such circumstances, to give evidence to show cause, as is allowed in Great Britain.

The difference between the practice of the English and Irish Courts referred to in the Question, so far as it exists, arises from the fact that the Criminal Evidence Act of 1898, which makes persons charged with offences competent witnesses on their own behalf, does not apply to Ireland. The Government cannot undertake to bring in any Bill this session to extend the Act to Ireland.

Seeing that Mr. Justice Gibson has recommended a change, will the right hon. Gentleman promise a Bill for next session?

Any recommendation by Mr. Justice Gibson will, of course, receive sympathetic consideration.

Any proposal to give Crown Prosecution power to cross-examine prisoners will be opposed by me.

Labourers (Ireland) Bill

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if, with a view to the liberal provisions of the forthcoming Workers' Bill, he will have all representation forms under the Labourers' Acts which are, or have been, disallowed on technical and other unsubstantial grounds preserved for use immediately the new Act comes into force, and provision inserted in the Bill to make these representations available without further delay, trouble, inquiry, or expense.

It is presumed that the hon. Member refers to the forthcoming Labourers (Ireland) Bill. While desiring to save all possible expense, I am advised that not only is the suggestion made in the Question impracticable owing to changed circumstances and other causes, but that even if it were practicable its adoption would be unnecessary, for reasons which I could not now explain without stating the provisions proposed to be made in the Bill. I would ask the hon. Member to await the introduction of the Bill.

Delvin Labourers' Cottage Scheme

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will request the Local Government Board to furnish the Delvin District Council with a copy of Inspector Wilson Lynch's report, a summary of the evidence, other than that given at the public inquiry, with the names of the persons who gave it, and the grounds for disallowance in each of the sixty-five cases in which the Board have rejected the cottages and plots proposed by the council, and thus rendered the expense incurred fruitless; and will the Board state specially what it proposes to do in the case of Michael Gibney, whose present habitation has been condemned by the medical officer.

The Local Government Board are prepared to furnish a copy of their inspector's report to the rural district council if they should apply for it. No evidence was taken other than that given at the public inquiry. The Board have already informed the council of the grounds of the rejection of sixty-two of the cases included in the scheme. A Provisional Order having been issued in the case, the Board have no power to make any addition to the order or to reopen any of the cases excluded from it. The case of Michael Gibney is one of the excluded cases.

Irish Land Act Files

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland will the Irish Land Commission allow an independent examination to be made of the files in their Court in cases in which they have fixed judicial rents, for the purpose of either confirming or refuting the allegation that the pink schedule is inadequate and not made up in accordance with the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1896, and that the tenants in those cases have not been given the credit for occupation, interest and improvements, to which they are legally and equitably entitled.

The answer to the Question is in the negative. The Land Commissioners inform me that it would be impossible for the Land Commission, as a Court of Record, to discuss questions which have come or may come before them for judicial decision. They regard the suggestion as unprecedented in the history of judicial tribunals.

Pedigree Stock for Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the number of bulls and cows purchased by the Irish Department of Agriculture in England and Scotland during the past five years; the prices paid for same; the expenses incurred by representatives going over to purchase; if these representatives, when on the business of the Department, made private purchases for themselves; what has become of these bulls and cows so purchased; and if the projected Commission will inquire into these purchases, with a view to evidence being given that these bulls and cows could have been purchased as well in Ireland as in England or Scotland.

During the five years ending March 31st, 1906, 276 pedigree bulls and twenty-four pedigree cows and heifers were purchased in England and Scotland for the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction at a total cost of £14,906. The usual travelling and subsistence expenses of the Department's representatives were paid. In most cases the animals were purchased by a permanent inspector of the Department, who in no instance made private purchases for himself. On a few occasions the Department found it necessary to employ the services of a person not on their staff, and there was nothing to prevent such persons from making private purchases; but the Department have no information that he did so. The bulls were sold to applicants for county premiums, with the exception of seven which were retained by the Department for their own herds. The twenty-four cows and heifers were distributed among the Department's agricultural stations. The number of animals required has not been obtainable in Ireland, nor has the Department found it possible to procure, even in Great Britain, a sufficient number of bulls to supply the demand which exists under their live stock schemes. It will be in the discretion of the Committee whether they will inquire into this particular branch of the work of the Department.

Had the Department exhausted the supply in Ireland before application was made elsewhere?

Adair, Mountmellick Estate

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state upon what terms the planter, who occupies the farm on the Adair, Mountmellick, estate, from which Thomas Flanagan, Clonaghadoe, was evicted in 1884, is in occupation; and whether the planter in question has been approached by the Estates Commissioners, with a view to Flanagan's reinstatement; and, if so, with what result.

The Estates Commisioners inform me that they have no information as to the terms upon which the farm formerly occupied by Flanagan is held by the present tenant. This tenant has not been approached by the Commissioners, who have no power to arrange for the restoration of Flanagan unless the estate concerned comes before them for sale. No proceedings for the sale of the estate have been instituted before the Commissioners.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware the whole estate was sold under a previous Act?

Mr. Croker and his Croom Tenants

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland can he say how negotiations for sale and purchase on the lands of Ballygrennan, Croom, county Limerick, as between Mr. Edward Croker and his tenants stand at present; is he aware that as far back as November last arrangements were made on the understanding that the tenants should pay directly a gale of rent, then barely due; that on the payment of the rent by three of the tenants out of four the agent alleged that the title deeds to the estate could not be found so as to break up the sale; and that the fourth tenant, Michael Cussen, has been processed for £7 17s., amount of dead gale; and does he propose to take any, and, if any, what action in the matter.

I am informed by the Estates Commissioners that no proceedings for the sale of this estate are pending before them, and they have no information as to the matters of fact alleged in. the Question.

Registration of Land Title in Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, having regard to the fact that there are at present no fewer than 90,000 holdings on the register, which are at present increasing at the rate of 14,000 a year, it is the intention of the Government to introduce during the present session a Bill for the perfecting of the system of local registration of title in Ireland.

I understand that the figures quoted in the Question are substantially correct. The subject is admittedly of considerable importance, but it is also one of much complexity. It has already been under the consideration of the Irish Government, and legislation may be necessary to deal with it, but I fear that it will scarcely be possible to introduce a Bill during the present session. The matter, however, will not be lost sight of.

Constable Anderson, Royal Irish Constabulary

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the salary of Constable Anderson, of the Royal Irish Constabulary, who, notwithstanding the fact of his being a confessed accomplice of Sergeant Sheridan in the mutilation of animals and the conviction of innocent men for these atrocities, is still, owing to an alleged contract entered into between him and the right hon. Member for Dover, when Chief Secretary for Ireland, in the force and engaged in the performance of fatigue duty and the tutelage of recruits in the Royal Irish Constabulary depot, Phœnix Park; what is the cost of this man in board, lodging, and clothing to the State; and under what estimate will his salary and perquisites be included.

I am informed that Constable Anderson's salary is £65 per annum, and that his entire pay and allowances, including cost of uniform, amount to £70 per annum, from which a deduction of one shilling a week for barrack accommodation is made. The constable pays for his own board. His salary is borne on the Vote for the Royal Irish Constabulary. It is incorrect to describe this constable as a confessed accomplice of Sergeant Sheridan and as being engaged in the tutelage of recruits. I have already informed the hon. and learned Member that the constable protested his innocence, and that he has no authority over recruits.

The right hon. Gentleman has again been misinformed. Is he not aware that the late Chief Secretary, who made this bargain with this man, stated that he was examined before a private Commission on condition that if he told the truth he would stay in the force? Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to perpetuate this great iniquity?

The man is kept at the depot. I have already answered these Questions fully and can add nothing.

Royal Irish Constabulary Inspectors

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many county inspectors, Royal Irish Constabulary, have been appointed since November 29th, 1901; how many of these were Catholics; is it the case that six vacancies will occur this year; and will Catholics be excluded from promotion as heretofore.

I am informed that since November 29th, 1901, eleven first-class district inspectors have been promoted to the rank of county inspector. None of these are Catholics. I understand that several vacancies will occur this year, but I cannot say how many. The vacancies will be filled by promotion, according to seniority, of suitable officers from the list of first-class district inspectors, totally irrespective of the religious body to which they may belong.

Gun Licences in County Tipperary

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, having regard to the fact that Mr. Jeremiah O'Dwyer, district councillor, of Mohouragh, Cappawhite, county Tipperary, was refused a gun licence by the local resident magistrate, Mr. H. Turner, without any reason whatever being stated, and, seeing that Mr. O'Dwyer is a farmer who needed a gun-carrying licence so that he may be in a position to protect his crops from vermin, he will recommend that the granting or refusal of such a licence shall henceforward be vested in the local bench of magistrates.

The hon. Member complained that the words "a man of undoubted respectability," which appeared in the Question originally after Mr. O'Dwyer's name, had been struck out.

The power of granting licences in a proclaimed district under the Peace Preservation Act is vested by Order in Council in the resident magistrate for the district. I do not think it would be judicious to make the alteration suggested in the latter part of the Question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman introduce legislation to remove from the Statute Book this remaining Coercion Act?

I do not think it can properly be described as a Coercion Act. I cannot make any statement without notice.

Is it not the fact that at the recent assize the Judge was presented with white gloves?

said he should like also to vouch for Mr. O'Dwyer's undoubted respectability.

Mineral Rights on Irish Estates

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has come to any decision yet as to securing powers for the Estates Commissioners to sell on lease the mineral rights vested in them in the estates purchased under the Act of 1903, so as to enable minerals, where obtainable, to be worked; and, if so, what does he propose doing.

This matter, which is no simple one, is still under consideration, and I am hoping to receive shortly the views of the Land Commission. I cannot yet make any statement in the matter.

Fire-arms in Proclaimed Districts

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the month of October, 1904, the police at Fintown, county Donegal, seized a new gun belonging to a young man named James Walsh; whether there is any reason to suppose that the gun was intended to be used by Walsh for any improper or illegal purpose; whether this man has made repeated applications to have it restored to him, and whether applications have been refused; and, if so, will he now order that the gun shall be delivered to Walsh without delay.

I am informed by the police authorities that in October, 1903, the gun in question was seized by the police because Walsh was carrying it in a proclaimed district without a licence. It is not alleged that Walsh had the gun for an illegal purpose. He has made one application for its return to him, which application was refused. Under the Peace Preservation Act, a gun so seized becomes forfeited to the Crown; but if Walsh should obtain a licence under the Act the gun will be restored to him.

County Donegal Proclamation

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the peaceable condition of the rural districts of Glenties and Dunfanaghy, county Donegal, as shown by the absence of any serious agrarian outrage during the past ten years, he will direct that the proclamation of these districts, dated April 5th, 1881, under the Peace Preservation (Ireland) Act of 1881, shall forthwith be revoked.

I am informed by the police authorities that it is the fact that the districts mentioned have for a considerable time been in a peaceable condition; but it is not quite correct to state that no agrarian outrages have occurred in them during the past ten years. I am informed that the power of limiting the carrying of arms to persons of proved good character has had an excellent effect as a precautionary measure, and that no hardship is involved in the exercise of that power, as licences are in general freely granted. I am not at present prepared to advise the revocation of the proclamation referred to under the Peace Preservation Act.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the mere fact that this district is proclaimed when it is notoriously free from crime is resented very much—and very rightly so—by the people as a stigma?

Whenever the matter comes up for reconsideration, of course the facts stated by the hon. Member will also be considered.

Marine Works Act

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant a Return showing the expenditure to date under the Marine Works Act, and also the works now in progress or intended to be carried out.

If the hon. Member will put down a Question not for oral answer, I shall be glad to furnish with the Votes the information asked for, but it is scarcely necessary at the present stage to make this information the subject of a Parliamentary Return.

Annesly and Downshire Tenantry

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Land Commission have ascertained if the Earl of Annesly and the Marquess of Downshire have withdrawn their scales of voluntary reductions for second-term rents in the County of Down; and, if so, whether the withdrawal is attributed by the Land Commission to the fact that the Sub-Commission, of which Mr. M'Connell is a member, have been giving smaller reductions than the landlords themselves were willing to agree to; and, if not, whether he can state for what reason the scale of voluntary abatements was withdrawn.

I am informed by the Land Commission that they have no information as to the withdrawal of voluntary scales of reduction on second-term rents on the estates referred to.

Have any inquiries at all been made in the district? The matter is perfectly notorious there.

I presume they have made such inquiries as they could, and they tell me they have no information.

Marlfield National School, Belfast

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state whether the Board of Education are still the referees of the Marl-field National School in Belfast; and, if not, when, to whom, and for what reason, have the Board transferred their power in regard to this school.

I am informed by the Commissioners of National Education that the manager of this school has dismissed the principal teacher. The latter contests the legality of the dismissal upon the ground that the referee who countersigned the notice of dismissal was no longer in office, and that, in consequence, the refereeship had, under the agreement between manager and teacher, devolved upon the Commissioners. As the legality of the dismissal is in question, the Commissioners have declined to give any opinion in the matter.

But are the Commissioners still the referees? That is the Question on the Paper.

There is a legal point involved, and it is not for the Commissioners to decide that.

It is a question of fact, not of law. Are the Commissioners still the referees, or have they transferred their powers, and, if so, to whom?

Shall I be in order, Mr. Speaker, in again putting the Question to which I have failed to get an Answer? Is the right hon. Gentleman entitled to refuse a reply?

* : I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that whether or not the Board of Education were the referees was a legal point which had yet to be decided.

It may be satisfactory to the hon. Member if I say I have no reason to think there is the slightest desire on the part of the National Board to keep any information from the House. If he will put another Question down, I will do my best to get it answered.

Constable Anderson, R.I.C

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the official record of Constable Thomas Anderson, of the Royal Irish Constabulary depot; was Anderson assured by the Government officials who held the inquiry into the case of Sergeant Sheridan, that if he told the truth he would not suffer in any way; if so, why is Anderson employed solely on fatigue duty and refused the ordinary police duty at the depot or elsewhere; and if Anderson has, or will be, examined for promotion, and his claims for higher rank be considered if he passes the qualifying examination.

I am informed by the Inspector-General that Constable Anderson's record was favourable prior to his implication in the case of Sergeant Sheridan. As to the remainder of the Question, I beg to refer to the statement of the right hon. Member for Dover made in this House on July 23, 1902.†

As the right hon. Gentleman says this constable's record is favourable why is he excluded from being a candidate for examination for promotion and for other privileges?

The matter has been over and over again discussed. I cannot add anything to the Answers I have already given. If the hon. Gentleman will read the Answer to the end I think he will find it constitutes a reply to his. Question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman lay on the Table a copy of the District Inspector's Report?

Sergeant Farrell—Royal Irish Constabulary

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether Sergeant Farrell, who has recently been reduced from the rank of head constable for misconduct at Belfast, is about to be paid off on pension; and, if so, can he state why this officer has not been compelled, according to regulations, to serve three years in his present rank; and will he explain why Constable M'Farland, of Wexford, was not allowed to retire on pension until he had served three years in the rank of constable, after having been reduced from the rank of sergeant.

I am informed that the fact is as stated in the first part of the Question. There is nothing in the constabulary regulations which would require the sergeant to serve for throe years in his present rank before being retired. In the case of Constable McFarland, the Inspector-General refused to give the statutory certificate of diligence and fidelity until the constable had served for three years in the reduced rank and purged himself of the misconduct for which he had been reduced. In the case of Sergeant Farrell, the Inspector-General was satisfied that he had served

†See (4) Debates, cxi., 1071 et seq.

with diligence and fidelity throughout his service generally.

Head Constable Reynar, Royal Irish Constabulary

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the evidence of Head Constable Reynar at a police inquiry recently held in Belfast, where he stated that he had to give special protection to several head constables from time to time on the Shankill Road, Belfast; if he can give the names of the head constables referred to, and the dates on which the alleged protection was given; if there is any official record of Head Constable Reynar's reports in the cases referred to in his evidence; and, if not, will he order a sworn inquiry into the whole matter.

I am informed that the matters referred to in the Question were disciplinary matters as to which the Inspector-General has already made full inquiry, and he therefore considers no further inquiry to be necessary. It is not the practice to state particulars of the evidence given at constabulary courts of inquiry.

Royal Irish Constabulary and Good Templary

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state what are the reasons for prohibiting members of the Royal Irish Constabulary from joining the Order of Good Templars; and whether, seeing that this order is entirely non-political and non-sectarian, and solely in the interests of temperance, he will consider the advisability of recommending the withdrawal of any restrictions in regard to this matter.

The oath of office taken by members of the Royal Irish Constabulary binds them not to join any society of a secret nature. The constabulary authorities have from time to time received evidence that the rules of the Order of Good Templars provide for secret signs and other operations of a secret nature, all doubtless perfectly innocent and even laudable. Members of the force are, of course, at liberty to take the temperance pledge and join temperance societies which are not secret, but the present Inspector-General, following the practice of his predecessors for the past thirty years, has declined to sanction members of the constabulary joining the Order of Good Templars.

Was the last part of that Answer actually supplied the right hon. Gentleman: that the oath of the policeman prevents him joining a secret association.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor in office state in this House that a policeman could, become a Freemason?

Is there any real difference between Good Templary and ordinary benefit friendly societies? Cannot the police join the latter?

I cannot interfere with his discretion. He is quite capable of forming his own opinion on it.

Birr and Portumna Railway

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a Resolution from the Portumna District Council and other public bodies requesting the Government to reopen the Birr and Portumna line of railway; whether he is aware that the line had been originally built at a cost of £80,000, £60,000 of which was contributed by the public; that at the expiration of a ten years lease, which the Great Southern and Western Company had, the Board of Works took charge of the line and subsequently withdrew the caretakers, and allowed the rails, sleepers, station-house, and stores to be stolen; and whether, in view of the fact that there is no railway accommodation between Birr and Killaloe, a distance of 50 miles on the Galway side of the Shannon, the Government will take steps to have the line reopened.

* : The Resolution mentioned has been received. The statements of fact are substantially correct, except that the line was not in the hands of the Board of Works, but of the Public Works Loan Commissioners. The line is no doubt derelict, and its deplorable condition has long been a matter of concern to the Irish Government, but a large sum of money would be required to re-equip it for work, and it is very doubtful whether there would be traffic to justify the expense unless the line were taken over by the Great Southern and Western Railway Company and worked in with their system, and perhaps also unless a line were constructed from Portumna to Loughrea, which would give a direct route of communication from the South East of Ireland to Athenry and Galway. I cannot undertake, in the present position of things, that the Government will take the steps suggested, but the whole matter together with many other questions relating to Irish Railways is engaging my attention.

East Tyrone Election Disturbances

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what action, if any, the authorities have taken against the members of the Orange mob which attacked Nationalists and injured property at Stewartstown on the night of the declaration of the poll in East Tyrone; whether, in view of the conduct of the mob on that occasion any, and, if so, what precautions were taken by the authorities to prevent the similar outbreak on March 10th; and what steps are being taken to bring the offenders to justice.

* : I am informed by the police authorities that on the occasion first mentioned hostile crowds assembled in Stewartstown. Stones were thrown, and shots fired, principally in the air. A man belonging to the Nationalist Party was slightly injured in the leg by a revolver shot, and for this offence a man named Miller was tried at the recent Assizes and acquitted. Evidence was not forthcoming against any other offenders. On March 10th a force of five extra police was sent to Stewartstown. A prosecution is pending against ten persons who are alleged to have taken part in the disturbances on that occasion.

Usher Estate, Galway

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that an attempt is being made to sell to the tenants the worst portion of the Usher estate, in the county of Galway, which is situated at Garrafine; that this portion was offered about seven years ago at eighteen and a half years purchase; and that the price now demanded is twenty-one and a half and twenty-four and a half years purchase on first and second-term rents respectively; and whether in view of the fact that the portion not offered for sale contains large tracts of untenanted lands, and that the 120 acres of untenanted land on the Garrafine portion mainly consists of bog and bad pasture land, the Commissioners will refuse to declare the portion offered a separate estate.

* : I am informed by the Estates Commissioners that no originating application in respect of the sale of this estate has been lodged with them, and they have no information as to the matters referred to in the Question.

Enniskillen and the Labourers (Ireland) Acts

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that, on October 4th, 1904, the Enniskillen Rural District Council (No. 1), county Fermanagh, passed a Resolution by thirty-one votes to sixteen not to adopt the Labourer's (Ireland) Acts; that thirty-four applications for cottages have been submitted to the council which, under cover of the said Resolution, they refused to consider; and that in this district no labourer's cottage has been erected under the Labourers Acts; and whether, in view of the illegality of this resolution, he will say what action the Local Government Board intends to take in this matter.

* : The reply to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The records of the Local Government Board show that the district council referred to have refused to consider thirty-seven applications for labourers' cottages, and that no cottages under the Labourers Acts have been erected in the district. The Board are considering the question of ordering an inquiry into the refusal of the council to proceed as required by the Labourers Acts.

Gore Booth Estate, Sligo

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Gore Booth Estate, on which the town of Ballymote, county of Sligo, is situate, has been sold to the tenants under the Land Act of 1903, and that the majority of the town tenants are also tenants on the agricultural portion of the estate; and whether, seeing that the purchase arrangements have not yet been completed, and that the vendor is anxious to have the town included in the sale, and is willing to leave the settlement of price to the Estates Commissioners, the matter will be referred to the Commissioners for re-consideration.

I am informed by the Estate Commissioners that the originating application in respect of this estate includes land adjacent to the town of Ballymote, but the town itself is excluded from the sale. If the vendor and the town tenants should apply for advances in respect of the town holdings, the Commissioners are prepared to consider whether such advances should be made, regard being had to the second Regulation of the Regulations recently issued.

Nicholson Estate, Sligo

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the grazing farm of Annagheur, comprising a portion of the Nicholson estate, situate near Castle-baldwin, Riverstown, county Sligo, and at present administered by the Court of Chancery, has been sold to a man named Merrin; and, if so, will he state the circumstances under which the sale took place, whilst the tenanted portion of the estate still remains unsold, and say why that grazing farm was not utilised for the enlargement of the uneconomic holdings surrounding.

I am informed that the estate in question is the subject of proceedings in Chancery, and I am also informed that Mr. Merrin is tenant, under a court letting, of part of the lands, but that no sale to him has taken place. The Land Judge has no jurisdiction to sell any part of the lands.

Transvaal Government—Colonial Office Morality

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is now prepared to make a statement as to whether complete self-government, as generally understood, is to be granted to the Transvaal, or is it intended to reserve exceptional rights of vetoing certain measures where considered to contravene the spirit of morality held by the Colonial Office.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

The hon. Gentleman asks me "whether I am prepared to make a statement as to whether complete self-government, as generally understood, is to be granted to the Transvaal, or whether it is intended to reserve exceptional rights of vetoing certain measures where considered to contravene the spirit of morality held by the Colonial Office." The hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity of returning to his Question to-morrow on the Colonial Office Vote, and I daresay he will then be in a position to challenge what he calls the spirit of morality which he has discovered in that Department.

Selection (Standing Committees)

reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufactures, in respect of the Land Tenure Bill:— Mr. Gill; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Howard.

Report to lie upon the Table.

New Bills

OLD AGE PENSIONS (No. 3) BILL

"To provide Pensions for the Aged Deserving Poor," presented by Mr. J. W. Wilson; supported by Mr. Goddard, Mr. Cecil Harmsworth, Mr. Claude Hay, Mr. Remnant, and Mr. Wedgwood; to be read a second time upon Friday, May 25th, and to be printed. [Bill 146.]

Workmen's Compensation Bill

[SECOND READING].

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now road a second time."

* said that before the House went into the question of the extension of the principle of compensation for all accidents to all workmen in all classes of trades, it seemed absolutely necessary that they should deal with those preliminary considerations which made it difficult to apply the principle which the House desired of universal inclusion within the law. The matter was one which had been very carefully considered by the Departmental Committee, although they stated that it was outside the limits of reference. In spite of that statement by the Committee, they three times dealt very carefully with the question which it was his intention to submit to the attention of the House. He made no apology for raising it, because he was quite sure, as an old Member, that the reasons which led the right hon. Member for West Birmingham to raise the question in 1893 on the Employers' Liability Bill were as valid to-day as they were then. It was impossible for private Members to frame clauses in Committee which would give practical effect to what he thought would be desired by the House, and it was therefore clearly a subject which ought to be raised on the Second Reading of the Bill. He knew there were many Members who desired to raise other subjects, and no one could doubt their right to do so, but he believed the form of his Amendment was so wide, and covered so completely the whole Bill, that there would be no exception taken and that all the desired topics might be raised. He was, however, entirely in the hands of the House as to this particular debate and its limitations. He believed that the differences which at one time were supposed to exist in the Trade Union Congress on this question were more apparent than real. Personally, he should like to face that difference in order, without trying to bind anyone else, to state his own view clearly. There was a certain difference of opinion which led to the matter being referred back by the Trade Union Congress to a special Committee and that led to an Amendment in the Report. When the matter was a second time before the Congress, the hon. Member for Clitheroe expressed the fear he entertained lest anything should be done to break down the principle of the personal liability of the employer. He (the speaker) agreed with the maintenance of that liability in this country, and he wished to say so. In the modern foreign systems that principle of the personal liability of the employer was maintained, although the principle of the Amendment was also maintained. The whole of the omitted questions which were severely dealt with on the introduction of the Bill were affected. For example, the period of fourteen days, which was to be reduced to seven days, was only five or three days in most rival countries, and all those who had been engaged in the business of insurance under the Workmen's Compensation Act and who gave evidence before the Committee knew that that change made insurance difficult and raised the premiums. In the case of small trades they undoubtedly ran the risk that the employer would not insure, and there was therefore an increased risk of of defeating the very provisions which they were putting into law. In France and Belgium they had been able, by dealing with matters under the principle of the Amendment, to shorten the period in one case to five days and in the other to three days. Then in France there was no such exclusion of workshops employing fewer than five persons. It was the same with regard to shop assistants. Shop assistants were included in the French law, and no difficulty was found in such limited application of that law to them in practice as had up to now been made. With regard to out-workers, there could be no doubt that the most painful evidence given before the Departmental Committee was that which concerned women workers where the character of the trade and the nature of the employment was such that insurance prevailed to a much smaller extent than in larger trades.

The statement of Miss Sanger must have touched the hearts of all those concerned who read the evidence given before the Committee. She was asked in two long questions by the chairman and other members of the Committee what she was leading to, and she explained the French system as it affected these poor women engaged in the feebler trades, who were the chief victims of our present loose system of compensation. There was nothing worse, in dealing with this question, than to promise and not to pay, than to raise expectations which they knew they would be unable to fulfil. The Act was extended to Agriculture, but the danger of non-insurance on the part of small employers was there very great in deed, and great hardships had, as a matter of fact, occurred. He spoke in the presence of the hon. Member for Dundee, who knew of some most cruel cases in other trades. The other day—and he dared say they would see the sameto-day—the House seemed inclined to bless almost unanimously the principle of universal insurance, but, having done that, to take mo steps towards giving it effect. How long was that to go on? It was no new question; it was a very old question. In 1883 Germany adopted her present law. He was not advocating the adoption of that law here. It was too bound up in other laws for it to be practicable here; but in1883–4 Germany and Austria called the attention of the world to the subject, and they adopted their admirable law from their point of view, which so completely dealt with the question for them, and which had received only unimportant amendments of detail from that time. Then the right hon. Member for West Birmingham brought the matter before this House, not on the lines of his subsequent Bill which they were now amending, but on the lines of the Amendment. He moved an Amendment in 1893 to the Employers' Liability Bill, raising this very question. He moved that no amendment of the law could be satisfactory which did not provide compensation for workmen for all injuries. He made only one exception, and he stated that he had placed his Amendment upon the Paper with a view to telling the House an alternative system of dealing with the whole question. He quoted a conversation he had had with a well-known former Member, Mr. Knowles, who had just died, a great Tory employer, who was of opinion that universal liability was the only satisfactory settlement. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham added that universal liability meant universal insurance. Within the last few weeks it had been alleged that it was too soon to bring about so sudden a change, but 1893 was a good many years ago, and it was then already alleged that the thing was premature. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham asked the then Liberal Government— working close at hand in Europe satisfactorily from that time to this, and the account given in the Appendix of the Report which was laid before the Committee was the least satisfactory portion of their evidence. The French system had been working far better than anyone would gather from the account given in that Appendix. He had to make good his statement that the Departmental Committee to which the subject was referred by the late Government, although they three times stated that the matter was outside the sphere of reference, yet reported upon it very fully indeed. They were their advisers, and if he could show that beyond doubt they foresaw that this was the only possible solution of the difficulties referred to them, he thought he would have established a strong case that it should be considered on the Second Reading of this Bill. On page 123 it was stated that the subject was outside the sphere of their inquiry, but on page 121 they pointed out the danger of that defeat of the intentions of Parliament to which he had alluded in the terms of the Amendment, defeat by bankruptcy and non-insurance, and that that danger was enormously increased by every extension of the Bill. They stated that the very extensions which they recommended were themselves subject to that danger. They repeated the word "danger" over and over again, and in another passage, on page 37, they stated that they wished to utter a note of alarm and warning. They said the danger was likely to prove more serious in proportion as the operation of the Act was extended, and that there were many employers, and there were likely to be more still if the Act was extended, who would not insure or keep up their insurance in the case of small trades. It was impossible to guard against those dangers and many others unless the security of solvent funds was brought in. In one passage they added words which he was sorry to say would conflict with the views of the hon. Member for Clitheroe. They said that the difficulties, and many other difficulties, to which the present system gave rise could only be solved by substituting for the personal liability of the employer the security of a fund. Elsewhere, however, they used a happier phrase. In debating the subject before them to-day the House was only doing what its own Committee of Inquiry said it must do. The Committee used the following words— manager of the Employers' Liability Corporation was asked about lump sum commutation, and he said that in France it was prohibited. There was no such practice, and they took "a strong view that provision should be made for the whole of life." They read of the cruelty of cases, especially of young people on small wages, where lump sums were given. The system left the sufferer a burden on the community, and there was no eventual way of guarding against the danger, as was admitted by the Committee of Inquiry, except by a State guarantee of insurance. The hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division of Glasgow had said that he believed that the principle of personal liability should be accompanied by compulsory insurance in the smaller trades. Whilst his proposals might be thoroughly applicable to small agriculture, yet it might be dangerous in certain trades to increase the inducement to the giving out of work. If they specially benefited the small employer as against the large they might increase the tendency to out-work in trades of that description. His own main point was this: that by shutting their eyes for so long a time and giving the go-by to this question, they were not doing what the country expected and what so many hon. Members told the electors, namely, that they were going to work towards obtaining complete compensation for all workmen injured in all classes of trade. In this matter we had fallen into arrear as compared with other countries. Workmen's compensation treaties between France and Italy, Italy and Switzerland, and Italy and Germany were signed in 1904. Similar labour treaties were made between Austria and Germany in 1905, and between France and Belgium in 1906. Up to the present this country had not been able to come to any treaty engagement of that kind, and, therefore, they were unable to give or receive the advantages which all those States were conferring upon their workmen abroad. He appealed to the Government to give careful consideration to this subject in regard to which they were falling day by day more heavily into arrear. He begged to move.

* said he rose to second this Motion because he was anxious to take the opportunity of expressing his opinion upon a question in which he had always taken a great interest, and because he had practical experience of the working of one of the great insurance companies. He ought to guard himself by saying that he was not speaking as the mouthpiece of any insurance company or corporation. On the other hand, it must be obvious that the House could not fairly consider this subject all round without also considering at the same time the position of the insurance companies. If by their legislation they made it difficult to insure, or made the cost of insuring high, they would defeat the purpose of their own Act. They could not consider this question from the workman's point of view alone. The interest of the workman was bound up in cheap insurance. In seconding the Amendment he had nothing to say against the Bill. He should not have seconded it had it been a hostile Amendment, or if he thought it would hinder the progress of the Bill. He was heartily in favour of this measure, which he recognised as a great advance upon anything they had had in the direction of workmen's compensation. But he felt strongly that the House should keep in mind the main point put by the right hon. Baronet. This Bill was very much plainer in language than most of the other Bills they had had. Nothing was more distressing to insurance companies or made it more difficult to fix a reasonable rate than the mysteries of language so flagrant in the Act of 1897. He did not say that this Bill was perfect, because in a good many instances the phraseology might be improved. He wished, however to point out that this Bill, as a matter of fact, gave no guarantee to anybody that compensation would be paid any more than the Bill of 1897. It gave the workmen only a claim for compensation against his employer. His firm conviction was that they would never be able to give the workman any real guarantee until there was some principle of compulsion introduced in regard to insurance. He agreed that such a principle was most difficult and complex to carry out, but until there was some principle of compulsory insurance the House could not claim that in any sense they had guaranteed compensation to a workman injured in the course of his employment. He thought the House ought to consider that it had to deal not only with good, but also with bad, employers. A good employer would take care to see that the men were properly insured, but there was a class of employer who might be described as reckless about accidents and careless about insurance, and there were also small men to whom the premium of insurance would be a very serious matter. There had always been a difficulty in getting those classes of employers to insure, and he was afraid that this Bill would increase those difficulties. There could be no question that this Bill vary largely increased the scope of workmen's compensation. He was not complaining of the extension of the subjects for insurance under this Bill, because it did not really matter one straw to any insurance company or corporation what the House of Commons decided was a proper subject for compensation, because they would make their charges for any subject which the House said was a proper matter for insurance. Parliament was, however, increasing the risk of the careless employer by every additional cost they placed upon an employer, and that seemed an additional argument for making insurance compulsory at a time when they were increasing its area so very largely. It had been said that the insurance companies had been making enormous profits out of workmen's compensation insurance, but his belief was that not one penny of profit had been made out of the present rates; on the contrary, he believed that most of the insurance companies that started this business in 1897 were so misled by the figures quoted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham that hundreds of thousands of pounds had been lost in this branch of insurance. Of course he agreed that there had been collateral advantages, but as regarded workmen's compensation insurance itself he did not believe that the rates charged had been remunerative. That very fact was going to increase the risk of the class he bad described as not insuring. The insurance companies had had their lesson in the past and they had been gaining experience, and they now realised that it was necessary to protect themselves largely against any new risks of which they had not fathomed the consequences. He thought they would be quite justified, when this Act was passed, in charging an extra rate to compensate them for any possible lack of information, and they would certainly not be able to acquire any reliable ex- perience for two, three, or even four years. Consequently the House was running the risk, unless some principle of compulsion was introduced, of increasing the tendency of careless employers to refuse to insure. If they had a system of compulsory insurance, he quite agreed that they must protect the person insured as well as the person injured, and he had never been able to understand why in this country any body of men should be able to establish an insurance company, and take premiums, and why the State should allow that to be done without investigation in the interests both of master and workmen. It would be a great benefit if the Government insisted upon the assets and the working of these companies being fully inquired into. He could not imagine any respectable insurance company objecting to any kind of an inquiry that any Government official wished to make into its position, and he should like to see a schedule made so that both employers and employed might know that they were secure. He thought the time had come when the House in dealing with insurance matters might swallow the whole cherry at one bite instead of two. He hoped the Government would consider whether it was not possible to include workmen of all kinds in this Bill. That was a matter which he pressed in the interest of those who were engaged in the insuring of the workmen. What was the position in which the insurance companies would be placed? In the first place, by this Bill Parliament would greatly enlarge the scope of insurance, and in consequence of that, for three or four years, while they were getting experience of its working, the insurance companies would not be able to tell what the new conditions were likely to cost. Having to conduct their operations on business lines, they would make themselves safe in regard to premiums until they were satisfied from experience what were the fair premiums to charge. Therefore they would embark on a series of years in which the payments would be more or less indefinite, and, he admitted, larger than at present. Four or five years hence they were going to have another Bill to complete the work commenced by this measure. It might possibly be a universal insurance Bill, and the people engaged in insurance would have to go through another period of years endeavouring to find out from experience the cost of the business. During that period they would probably charge more than they need charge in order to make themselves safe. It appeared to him that in the interest of all concerned, and with a view also to the practicability and the smooth working of the Act, it would be a good thing if the Government could make up their minds to go a step further and complete the whole process of workmen's compensation under this Bill. It would be a good thing both for employer and employed if it were made quite clear for good and all what the new liabilities were and what they would cost. He said this with no sort of hostility to the Bill. If his right hon. friend, whose difficulties he recognised, could not make the extensions in the Bill which he wished he would heartily support the measure. The Bill was a great improvement on anything that had been brought in up to now, but it might be made a little better, and he hoped his right hon. friend would see his way to improve it.

Amendment proposed—

"To leave out from the word 'That,' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'this House desires such recognition and guarantee of insurance as to prevent the defeat of legal expectation of compensation created under the Law'—( Sir Charles Dilke )—instead thereof."

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

said the speech of the hon. Member for the St. Austell division was as interesting as any he had ever heard on the subject. The question of insurance with which the hon. Gentleman dealt was a very important one in connection with workmen's compensation. The representatives of the workmen could only speak of the experience they had had of the operations of the insurance companies, and of the fact that the companies had not come up to their expectations. If they carried out the proposal which had been made that there should be compulsory insurance he believed they would be able to get over the difficulty they had now in dealing with the insurance companies. He had had some experience in regard to this, and he found that generally employers hid behind the insurance company and the insurance company hid behind the employer. If there was insurance connected with the Government, or under some supervision of the Government, he ventured to think that they would not have the many difficulties they had now to put up with. He instanced a case which came before the county court judge at Wakefield on the 23rd of last month. A miner had been off work for eleven weeks. The man was anxious to return to work. In fact for a time when he went for his half wages he was almost insulted by some of the minor officials; they taunted him, and asked him how much longer he was going to stay off work. He pressed his doctor to allow him to return to work before he was quite fit. He had to sign a document when he returned to work, and, being unable to read or write, he believed it was a document of the kind which he had signed weekly for his wages. Having returned to work he had a few days afterwards to go off again from the effects of the same accident. When he renewed his claim for compensation he was refused, and it was stated he had signed himself off entirely and that he was not entitled to compensation. When the matter was discussed at the county court the judge thought that on the whole the man did not understand the document he was asked to sign. The document was of a kind which was very often used by railway companies, and it provided for the full discharge of the claim when a certain sum had been paid. A document of that kind was read out to the man by one of the officials, and it was read out with the object that the man should not thoroughly understand what he was asked to sign. He certainly thought that in view of this kind of treatment the workman was entitled to some protection. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to introduce some words into the Bill which would prevent any workman from being trapped into signing a document of that kind. He thought they should endeavour by this Bill to remove all kinds of opportunities for placing disabilities in the way of those entitled to compensation. He was satisfied that the Government intended by this measure that those to whom it applied should receive the compensation to which they were entitled. He objected most strongly to the attitude taken up very often by employers' agents in depriving men of that which they were rightly entitled to. He was not going to conceal the name of the offender in this instance. It was the Caledonian Railway Company. It had a very insidious habit of bringing intimidation to bear on the employees. The company insisted on employees asking permission to give evidence when it was proposed to call them as witnesses in cases where compensation was claimed. In a recent case which came before the courts, a firm of solicitors in Glasgow were refused permission to take precognitions, and they brought the matter before the judges. Their Lordships spoke very strongly on the matter. The result was that the company had now issued a general notice to all their officials directing that precognitions were to be given only under special authority and in the office of the company's solicitor. That was manifestly unfair, and ought not to be permitted. If a man met with an accident and it was necessary to get the evidence of others in support of a claim for compensation it was right and proper that the solicitor, acting on behalf of the claimant, should get such information as he required without having to take the precognitions of the witnesses in the office of the company's solicitor in the presence of any official. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would put something in the Bill to prevent intimidation of that kind. Amongst the matters which would have to be discussed in Committee were the claim that payment should be from the day on which the accident occurred, and the proposal that employers of five men and under should not, as the Bill at presented provided, be exempted from liability. He hoped that he and his friends would be able to bring forward sufficient argument to get their claims in these respects conceded. They wanted to remove these objections and protect the workmen in all cases in which he was entitled to compensation. He thought if the right hon. Gentleman would consider the matter he would find that Clause 5 of the Bill wanted strengthening. There was a case in which a workman was employed by a firm which insured their employees. An accident happened to the workman and the firm ought to have given notice to the insurance company in terms of the policy within seventy-two hours. The firm, however, omitted to give that notice in the time prescribed. The firm went into liquidation, and by the time the claim came into court the insurance people denied liability, and they were successful on the ground that notice of the accident had not been given to them within the stipulated time. Clause 5, he thought, could be strengthened a little so that any omission on the part of the employer to give notice to the insurance company, if the case was a good one, should not be held as disqualifying, the injured workman for receiving compensation. He was at one with the hon. Member for the St. Austell Division, in saying that this Bill ought to cover all workpeople whatsoever; and until that was done the question would be agitated in this House and the country. It was unfair that many of those who might be described as workmen were excluded from the benefits of the Bill. Let them take, for instance, clerks. He knew of many firms and railway companies whose clerks had to do all sorts of work outside their office other than clerical duties. He knew railway companies whose booking clerks had to come out of their office to collect tickets, and in order to do so had to cross the line. If these men were knocked down and injured or killed, they or their representatives would be exempted by this Bill from compensation. Clerks in the goods department on many railways had to do a great deal of porters' work; and at such places as Dover and Newhaven they had to assist in transferring passengers' luggage to and from the steamers. These men were called clerks, but if they were called porters they would get the benefit of the Bill. He would suggest that all these classes of workmen should be included in the Bill, so that all the difficulties pointed out by the hon. Member for the St. Austell Division as between employers, workmen and insurance companies should be settled once and for all. The question of compulsory insurance must receive attention if not now, at least within the next few years.

* : I think it would be in accordance with the feeling of the House that we should take a discussion on the Amendment made by my right hon. friend and then a general discussion on the main question of the Second Reading. I have no complaint whatever to make of the Amendment of my right hon. friend. In my opinion it is a most proper Amendment to move in order that the issue he has raised should be considered and discussed and if possible to get from the Government some definite declaration of sympathy with the Amendment. But with regard to what my right hon. friend and my friend the hon. Member for St. Austell have said, I have to point out that while it is true that in many cases foreign nations have been in advance of this country, both in regard to schemes of compensation to workmen injured, and to the general question of insurance, foreign countries have not yet solved the difficulty of the small employer in relation to a national scheme of insurance. The fact of the matter is that the wider you extend the scope of what we call the principle of workmen's compensation, the greater is the urgency you create for some system of insurance to guarantee the position of those entitled to compensation; and the more difficult it is to provide any real and satisfactory scheme of general insurance, national or otherwise. I pass over the speech of my hon. friend the Member for Derby, because the points he raised referred to our Committee work; but in regard to his first point I would draw his attention to paragraph 8 in the first Schedule, and perhaps if he would be kind enough to look at it he might satisfy himself that it meets his case. My hon. friend the Member for St. Austell, who delivered a most friendly speech in relation to the Bill, said: "Why avoid taking one plan? Why should you not tackle the question now so as not to force on the insurance companies the necessity of revising their system from time to time, and putting them to trouble and expense? I would submit to the House that under the circumstances it has been, and is, impossible for the Government to deal on this occasion with this question of national insurance. As the House is well aware, the time at our disposal was somewhat limited; but apart from that, it is, I submit, inadvisable to deal with this very important question without further inquiry, more particularly as my right hon. friend has pointed out, because the Departmental Committee did not deal with it—in fact it was practically beyond their reference. We admit that there is no finality in this scheme. There is no finality in any European scheme. We all admit that some scheme of compulsory insurance will eventually be necessary. I want the House to consider that there are a variety of questions that must be considered if you are to provide a scheme of national insurance. First of all, there is the question of the personal liability of the employer. My right hon. friend says he is desirous of maintaining that liability; and I believe that is the view of hon. Gentlemen on the Labour Benches opposite. I think that is a good principle, and I agree with it; but there are a great many people who have other views on the subject. Then, what would be the form of compulsory insurance? Would it be a form which requires employers to insure in existing companies, or would the Government undertake the whole management, the procedure and administration of this insurance themselves, and to what extent? Then, how far do you propose to go? That is to my mind all important. I have already pointed out to the House that European countries under their present schemes have not solved the difficulty. Take France, which has more recently than any other country dealt with this question. France has not really faced the question of the small employer, and under the present law shopkeepers are not included.

* : It all depends upon the construction of the words of the scheme. Apart from that, the French Government have gone on the principle of organised industries. They have for the most part limited themselves to trades that are distinctly risky and are largely and well organised. There are other countries—Belgium, Austria, and Germany—which exclude large numbers of workmen from the operation of the compensation law. I have the figures from the Report of the scheme in Germany for the year 1902. According to that Report, there are no less than 2,000,000 persons engaged in employment who do not come within the compensation law, and are consequently uninsured. It is quite clear that the Germans have not solved this question any more than France has done, and, having expunged from the operation of the Bill clerks and shopkeepers' assistants, I would ask whether we are expected to bring in another Bill this session dealing with the question of national insurance—a system of national insurance which, I suppose, will subject to a penalty all persons who employ workpeople, whether men or women, and all those who employ domestic servants. This is a very difficult matter. There are some millions of persons employed in this way, and what are we to do with them if we assent to the proposal which is now made? This is a very important question. I do not know whether my right hon. friend is ready with a solution, but it is obvious that these matters must be gone into before action can be taken. One of the most difficult questions, and I should like to hear some hon. Member who is acquainted with it speak upon it is the system of inspection of insurance companies. An hon. friend of mine who was connected with insurance companies said that they would welcome such an inspection, and if you passed a system of compulsory insurance, you would have to set up such a system of inspection. Then, in addition, you would have to consider what your standard of stability should be for the insurance companies doing workmen's compensation business. Then there is the question of the danger tariff. That will have to be considered. The question of the danger tariff occupied the German Government for a very considerable time. It took them a long-period to draw up that tariff. You will not do that in a week, a fortnight, or a month, because it is a very important matter, needing very careful consideration, as you must proportion your premiums to your risk. Then I should like to know how you propose to deal with insurance companies doing business under the Act with whose financial stability you are not satisfied. That is a difficult question, and all these matters, of which there are a great many, will have to be examined.

Then I come back to what is being done in European countries in regard to which my right hon. friend the Member for the Forest of Dean quoted cases. I would like to point out to the House that, although it is perfectly true that many European countries have what to them are perfectly satisfactory systems of national insurance, yet those systems are founded upon the particular conditions prevailing in those countries, and which do not necessarily prevail here. I would take a case where they have a system of compulsory insurance regulated by the State, but there the whole of that system is founded upon the ancient guilds of Germany which are now turned into trade and industrial associations. They are more than a hundred in number, and all these trade and industrial associations are exercising many important functions. The whole of the duty, or at least the greater part of the duty, of administering these funds devolves upon them. You have here a vital difference between their system and their methods and ours. Yon have in Germany a sick fund to which the workman contributes two-thirds and the employer one-third. That sick fund is liable, if an accident takes place, for a period of no less than thirteen weeks. And what is the upshot of that? I will give the House the statistics in regard to workmen's insurance. The employers pay 45·20 per cent., the employees 37·64, the State subsidy is 6·43 and the interest on invested funds is 10·73. Those are the figures which apply to the general compensation of workmen, so that the House will see that because of these large contributions of the workmen to the sick fund, and in consequence of this sick fund being brought into operation for thirteen weeks before the other compensation becomes payable, the problem is rendered less difficult, especially when it is considered that according to these figures the workmen contributes no less than 37·4 per cent. That is a system which belongs to Germany, and my right hon. friend held up the example of France and others in favour of national insurance, but you cannot expect us, with our methods and our system, to adopt the German system. I should be very sorry for myself, or for any Home Secretary who stood here, if his Bill contained such provisions as I have indicated. Going on to the case of Austria, you find that she has followed in the steps of Germany, but there the employers take 10 per cent. from the wages for compensation, and there again you have a sickness insurance in the same way as with the Germans, but it is not thirteen weeks, but only five weeks during which it is paid before the other compensation becomes payable. Then you have the case of Italy, which is very cautious, but which seems to be forming a system which it may be well worth our while to consider when we come to examine into this question. Italy has also adopted the system of compulsory insurance. Their system seems to be a compromise, however, between the voluntary and the compulsory systems. I think my right hon. friend the Member for the Forest of Dean mentioned it. It allows the employer to insure in the national bank, and it allows the railways to have their own fund. It also allows employers and employees to have their own mutual fund, all these various funds of course being administered under Government jurisdiction. As regards France, she has not really adopted compulsory or State insurance as I understand it, although she has established a State fund. I could go into the systems in force in other countries, but I think I have stated enough to show that there is is a great deal to be considered before you definitely decide what system of insurance you are going to have. When you come to realise what great difficulties have confronted European Governments in building up their schemes, and you see how cautious they have been, and how from time to time they have amended those schemes before they reached finality—if they have reached finality—it is quite clear that if I, or anybody far more competent to deal with this question than I am, held out any hope that it was practicable or within the Government's power at the present moment to deal with this question of national compulsory insurance, it would be illusory. I agree that the principle of compulsory insurance, whether it is in the form adopted by France, that of a central Government fund or a national bank guarantee, like Italy, or whatever form it takes, is a principle which we believe is the right one, and must as soon as practicable be adopted as a general solution of the question. Therefore, Sir, I can assure my right hon. friend, on behalf of the Government, that we are in full sympathy with the principle of his Amendment, and I see no reason why there should be any delay—certainly no unnecessary delay—in opening up a practical inquiry into the question of a general scheme of compulsory insurance. Whether it should be done this year or next is a matter for consideration. All I can say is that the Government are ready to look into the matter with the intention of adopting the principle embodied in my right hon. friend's Amendment, viz., that the workmen, having been given the right to compensation by the Statute, shall as far as possible be guaranteed that compensation when he meets with an unfortunate accident.

* asked whether the hon. Gentleman would prefer to speak upon his Amendment, or upon the general question of the Second Reading of the Bill.

said he would prefer to speak upon the question of the Second Reading of the Bill.

* said he would not withdraw the Amendment, but in view of the speech of the Secretary of State for the Home Department he would allow it to be negatived. He felt that the Secretary of State had said as much as was possible, having regard to the circumstances of the case.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

Main Question again proposed.

said the discussion had moved round the most important question raised by the right hon. baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean, but no doubt there were other important points contained in the Bill which were of great interest, and which it was desirable to discuss. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had criticised the details of the various schemes in force in foreign countries, and had expressed the general sympathy of the Government in favour of a system of general compulsory insurance, but his argument seemed to be, when it was based upon the action of France, rather against the form which he had himself adopted in this Bill. The right hon. Gentlemen had also alluded to the German scheme, and he appeared to find fault with the deductions from the workmen's wages which it involved. No doubt that was a point which everybody was prepared to challenge, but would the right hon. Gentleman himself be prepared to say that no part of the cost of compensating workmen should fall upon the wage fund of the workers of this country, as of course to some extent it did now fall? It had been a great inconvenience to the House that a longer period had not been allowed to elapse between the introduction and a Second Reading of this Bill. The measure was one of great complexity and considerable length; it contained seventeen clause, each of which was almost a Bill in itself. It was introduced on March 26th and not printed until March 30th. And with the greatest diligence they had been able to exercise it had been almost impossible for those interested in this measure to realise its scope. He complained that the time had been too short to enable Members to consult those in their constituencies who had full knowledge of the various points dealt with. He could not help thinking that for some occult reason they were being rather rushed in this matter. It might be that the exigencies of measures connected with education had made the Government anxious to interpose a non-contentious and non-Party Bill at this stage. There were many questions of principle involved. Most Members had seen the interesting letter which recently appeared in The Times from Sir Andrew Noble, who might be considered a model employer, with regard to the proposed reduction of the fourteen days. In that letter Sir Andrew Noble had given several concrete instances from his own wide experience, and everybody was agreed that if the Government did reduce the period which had to elapse before compensation was to run it would greatly add to the cost of compensation. The Bill included at least three Bills within its four corners. There should, in his opinion, have been a Bill specially applicable to seamen and another specially applicable to diseases of occupation. No one would suggest that there was no room for the amendment of the Workmen's Compensation Act. There was ample room, and now was the opportunity of his right hon. friend to perfect that Act. He must indeed perfect the law in such a way as to make it a model to foreign countries instead of allowing it to lag behind. He had a vast and willing majority in the House; he had no hostile opposition, and he had the experience that had been gained upon this subject both at home and abroad. This Bill halted midway between the two roads to perfection. It was either too large or too small; it added to the number of those who had to be compensated, without providing for any of those safeguards which the Departmental Committee recommended to the House. It included seamen under various conditions. Foreign and home trade alike were treated in this Bill. Seamen engaged in the coasting trade in small vessels, seamen in Atlantic liners, and seamen in fishing boats all came within the scope of the Bill, regardless of the fact that the present Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Bill he introduced made special exemptions in the case of small trading vessels and fishermen. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough, himself an expert in these matters, was convinced in the Committee that under certain circumstances it was desirable to exclude small vessels. Special consideration was necessary when dealing with small vessels. The right hon. Gentleman had departed from the principle laid down by his predecessors, the principle of the gradual extension of the Act so as to include trades, occupations, and industries, after investigation, in such a manner as to meet the circumstances of each. The right hon. Gentleman went far beyond "individual" industries. He included all with a few exceptions and without any safeguards whatever. The Departmental Committee had warned the House that it was important that no inclusion should be made of any particular industry or employment without full inquiries having been made as to the particulars of the employment to be included. No inquiries had been made in regard to the industries to be included in this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had simply hastily thrown together a number of provisions, no doubt desirable in themselves, without having considered what safeguards were necessary in the interests of each particular industry, and the House was left without the evidence to form a conclusion. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean had been, both in his Amendment and his speech, consistent. The Government had departed from the policy of the late Government, which was a policy of inclusion bit by bit. They had gone step by step.

That was step by step. And the late Government had full knowledge of the subject of agriculture. The right hon. Gentleman had reversed that policy. He had included the large employers and the small employers: the wealthy and the struggling, the village mason, the man who built carts and wagons, the blacksmith, the well-sinker, and all the other trades with which they were familiar in the country. Suppose an accident happened from a fall resulting from working some machinery in one of these small employments, and the man injured claimed. What would happen? That small class of employer was not acquainted with the peculiarities of insurance and he would in many cases fall a victim to the wiles of bogus insurance companies. They would put before him impossible schemes of insurance and after paying for two or three years the man would find that he had lost the premiums he had paid. On the other hand, a large number of small employers would not insure, and what would be the fate of the workman injured? The expectation was held out to him by this Bill that he was entitled to compensation, and the Government took no steps to see that the company in which the master insured was solvent. Therefore there was no guarantee that the man injured would get his compensation, and the small employer who had done his best to insure against accidents would be ruined. That was a serious blot upon the Bill. Looking at the figures and the admirable memoranda of Sir Kenelm Digby, he could not take the view of the right hon. Gentleman that the interests of the small employers had been safeguarded.

said he failed to understand what the right hon. Gentleman meant by that remark.

The Report said that provisions of the nature of those in force in Norway were also in operation in Italy. There were such widespread districts as Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Russia, and Belgium, and in all those countries they found some provision to safeguard the interests of the worker and the small employer. Not only the amount of compensation, but the security of the compensation had to be considered. It was quite true that a small employer, if one of his men met with an accident, could be made a bankrupt, but he did not know that that would be altogether in the interests of the worker or of the country. What they wanted to secure was that compensation should be as certain as possible. The Bill did not apply in a case where the employer proved that the number of workmen employed by him at the time of the accident did not exceed five, unless the accident was attributable to the use by the employer of machinery driven by steam, water, or other mechanical power. Why had the right hon. Gentleman limited the number to five? The restriction of numbers in the Bill of the late Government only applied to workshops. Why copy what the right hon. Gentleman might regard as a bad precedent? The right hon. Gentleman had removed other arbitrary distinctions, and why did he introduce this limit of five? Why did he not copy the late Government's good example, if he desired so slavishly to imitate them, and make it one as in the case of agriculture instead of five? Then, again, why had the right hon. Gentleman excluded clerks? They were often engaged in labour that differed very little from that of other workers.

* : I would suggest that the more usual way is followed, allowing each Member to speak in turn.

said the right hon. Gentleman certainly endeavoured to raise a good many points all in one breath, but he was sure he did not do so with any desire to embarrass him in placing his personal views before the House. The right hon. Gentleman asked him if he was in favour of the inclusion of clerks. It reminded him of the heckling to which they had all been subjected recently. What he wished to say was this: the right hon. Gentleman had departed from the principle the late Government laid down, which was to include trade by trade, and industry by industry, making provision for each case as they went along. But, holus bolus, the right hon. Gentleman included all, and only excluded a few special cases, and in each case he asked the right hon. Gentleman why he excluded it, and in what way did it differ from those included in the measure? The man who brought coal to the door was to receive compensation if he met with an accident, but not the maid-servant if she met with an accident in carrying the coal upstairs. All these anomalies the right hon. Gentleman had let himself into by the form in which he had brought forward this Bill. The Bill gave a premium on the most undesirable form of work. It was far better that the system of out-work should be encouraged as little as possible, but if because a man were an out-worker he was not to be compensated if he met with an accident, it was giving a distinct premium on the sending out of work, instead of having it performed in a properly ventilated, sanitary, and inspected workshop or factory. Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman had included seamen and almost every class, why had he excluded soldiers and sailors, who were among the most deserving classes? He did not refer to accidents in war, but where in peace time soldiers and sailors were engaged practically in civilian employment, such as gardeners, grooms, engineers, and builders. Sailors worked in dockyards on ships alongside civilians, and why should not the former as well as the latter get compensated if they met with accidents? If an accident happened on a trial run and the ship was lost, compensation was obtained in the case of the men employed by the civilian employer, but not in the case of the naval men. He hoped it was not that the soldiers and sailors were excluded because they had no trade union. It was extremely hard to leave out a deserving class of men who only received in case of accident an absolutely inadequate gratuity, and not even that as a right given by Parliament. It was extremely difficult where soldiers and sailors had not public opinion at their back to advocate their cause with any success. As regarded this Bill generally they must all regard it, he thought, as being a Bill of the very greatest importance. It was full of difficulties. The reduction of fourteen days to seven-days would alone give rise to a great deal of discussion. The introduction of many trades and industries would also lead to a considerable amount of debate, and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would not in any degree curtail the opportunities which the House ought to have for giving the very fullest consideration to a measure of so much importance, and which met with so much sympathy on all sides of the House.

* asked the indulgence of the House for a few moments while he put before them the point of view of the employer. He wished to give employees the fullest measure of security, but at the same time the employer was entitled to know what amount of compensation he had to pay. At the present time he did not know. Unfortunately, he was one of those small employers of labour who, when the Act was introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, joined with others in forming a mutual insurance of their own. He was sorry to say the speculation was a very bad one. They paid away a large sum in the first place in endeavouring to ascertain what the Workmen's Compensation Act meant. They had to fight a number of cases and he was very much inclined to think that the ambiguity of the Act was a God-send to half the solicitors and barristers of this country. They had to defend a number of claims that ought never to have been brought. There were legal gentlemen who sent touts to the hospital in which an injured man was, telling him that if a claim were preferred under the Employers' Liability Act instead of under the Workmen's Compensation Act the solicitor would be able to get a very much larger sum. As very often happened, the man was persuaded to make a claim under the Employers' Liability Act. He knew of an instance where a man had a sprained ankle, and they were willing to pay compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act, but the tout at a hospital got hold of the man, and a claim was made under the Employers' Liability Act. In the end the jury gave a large sum, with the result that the firm had to pay £400 for a sprained ankle, whilst the man was said to be dancing a jig a few days after. He was told that the money did not all go to the workman, but that it was divided between solicitor and client. He was not sure that it was wise to give any workman a lump sum as compensation, because he was very often inclined to spend it in ways that he should not, and in a very liberal manner amongst his friends. He thought that the Act ought to cover every kind of accident that might possibly arise. He was in entire agreement with the extension of the Act, and he should like to see it extended to every form of service, even to the domestic who cleaned the doorstep in the morning. He noticed that it was provided in the Bill that if the employer could be proved to have been guilty of negligence he would have to pay a larger sum, but if the employee was found guilty of negligence it did not say that he should receive a less sum. He did not think that was fair, because what was sauce for the goose was also sauce for the gander. It had been proved over and over again that negligence was not wilful misconduct on the part of the employee. He knew a case where a man was engaged to feed a brick-making machine, and instead of putting the clay in with a shovel, as he ought to have done, he used his foot. On one occasion his foot was caught, and he lost it. He received compensation and also got a wooden leg. Not more than two months after the wooden leg found its way into the machine as well, and the man received a second measure of compensation. They could proceed against the employer for allowing the man to put his leg or wooden leg into the machine, but they should have an Act which would deal fairly between employer and employed. The House had been told that insurance companies did not make any money out of workmen's, compeusation. He was sorry to differ from the hon. Member for the St. Austell Division on this point, because he believed that if the insurance was on a large scale a large amount of profit could be made. A larger body of factory inspectors would be better able than anybody else to prevent accidents. If the Government would take this question up as a business and conduct it on business lines he ventured to say that before two or three years had elapsed they would have made sufficient profit to take sixpence off the income-tax and give every employee over seventy-five years of age an old age pension.

* said he was sorry to see that many of the most serious defects in the present law were to be perpetuated in this Bill. There was, for example, the old question of contracting out. That system had been conducted with very great heart-burning and complaint from many parts of his county, and he spoke most particularly of the county of Lancashire. He knew of one firm which had employed 3,000 hands for eight years, and not a single employee of that firm had been able to avail himself or herself of the advantages of the Workmen's Compensation Act. This applied more particularly to coal mines, and therefore he asked that the provision for contracting out—which was simply a perpetuation of the clause in the Act of 1880—should be deleted. With regard to schemes certified by the Registrar he knew that at least they should be not less favourable to the workmen than the provisions of the Act itself. Pious intentions often enough led to anything but piety, and the power which had been invested in the Registrar was practically a despotic one. It was stated that under the Act the Registrar had to take into consideration all the facts and make himself acquainted with the views of both employer and employee, but he did not need to ascertain whether a majority of workmen were opposed to the scheme or not. Deputations had waited upon the Registrar and vast majorities had signified their disagreement with the provisions of the scheme, but all that had been of no effect. The contracting out provision could only be productive of mischief to the workmen. Often employers presented and forced upon their workmen schemes which had no moral sanction, the men being in most active and continued opposition to them. All the Registrar had to do was to lay on the Table the schemes so certified. If the Government were really in earnest about giving the workmen the benefit of this measure, let them not deprive them of its advantages by any such illusory regulation as this. With regard to serious and wilful misconduct, most Members would remember what a very lengthened argument this point gave rise to when the Bill was passing through the House nine years ago, and that the intentions of the Government were largely frustrated because of the opposition manifested by large bodies of employers, notably by the colliery owners. Everybody agreed upon the point that if a man had been guilty of serious and wilful misconduct and the accident was solely due to his misconduct, the man's right to compensation should then cease. The word "solely" was in the Bill as it left the House upon the first occasion. In the case of coal-mining the industry was honeycombed with general and special rules and by-laws of the employers' own framing, these last being optional upon the management. But whilst the original intention of Parliament was being observed in regard to the rules, any infraction of a by-law was being made an excuse to prove that the workman had been guilty of serious and wilful misconduct. This arrangement was harsh enough in England but it was working with greater harshness in Scotland, while it gave the employee no real relief. A case in point occurred in his own Division. There were two men, one of whom was an official of the company, and the other a day wage hand, who was bound to act under the orders of the official. The workman was sent into a place, where the atmosphere was laden with gas, to recover the materials of the employer. The other workmen had been ordered out of that section and had been sent to another part, and it was necessary that they should have these materials. Probably through an error of judgment two of these men went a little too far, and both were suffocated, and brought out dead. These victims, at the time of their death, were endeavouring to save the material of their employers. Why should those dependent upon these men be deprived of compensation and the men held to be guilty of wilful misconduct? If a boy went for a drink of water in a neighbouring place and a fall of roof occurred, that boy would be held to be guilty of serious and willful misconduct. The whole system was productive of the greatest possible amount of mischief and real injury, giving no tangible relief at all to the employees. With regard to making the period seven days, they were thankful to the Government for that change, fully recognising that legislation in England must proceed slowly. All the alarms of the employers had been completely falsified during the time the Act had been in operation. I He was in close connection with one of the largest indemnity associations in the north, and they had given evidence to the effect that the gentlemen who were alarmed by the possibility of threepence, sixpence, or a shilling a ton being added to the cost of the coal, had found to their great satisfaction that two-thirds of a penny and never in any case ¾d. a ton was all that had been added to the price of coal in providing for their obligations under the Act. If the Government would make payment date from the time of the injury he submitted that it would not, in the case of coal, add another halfpenny a ton to the total cost. Then with regard to malingering, since the passing of the Act thousands of cases had passed through his hands, and he had valuable evidence that malingering had not taken place so much as in the earlier stages of the measure was thought would be the case. In the case of the French law, when an injury had lasted ten days compensation was made retro-active. That would go very far in reducing malingering to a minimum, while in the case of injuries lasting more than ten days, it would give much needed relief to the people who suffered from the injury, They were bound to admit that the Government had very bravely taken occasion by the hand, and it was not in any spirit of carping criticism or unnecessary fault-finding that they spoke from the Labour Benches. There was a point raised by the Home Secretary with regard to people of sixty years of age and over. He submitted that that was a most serious blot on the measure, and he was afraid that here the Government were repeating the errors that were brought into existence by their friends the enemy. It was not in any derogatory sense he used that expression, for they remembered that the Workmen's Compensation Act was given to them by a Conservative Government. Why should an old workman of sixty be mulcted in this manner at all? It was a most indefensible provision. Let it be understood that if the old workman was decreasing in usefulness, he was automatically having his wages reduced. Take the case of coal miners. He knew many men of sixty and over who were working in the mines to-day and who were capable of doing as good work as any young man. Coal mining depended on profit, and the employers made as great a profit pro rata from the coal sent by the elderly workman as he got from the younger workman. Why a man of sixty should be mulcted in this way passed comprehension. There was nothing in logic or in equity which justified such a provision. It might be said they were going to increase the possibilities of his employment. This was not the way to increase employment or to obtain employment for them when they were out of work. If it were at all justifiable in the case of elderly workmen, by what stretch of argument or imagination could it be made to justify payment of £25 to the dependents, or one-twelfth of the maximum allowed by the present law? At least they had done nothing wrong. They would never keep people in employment by such regulations, and even supposing they did, by what possible process of reasoning could it be made to apply to the dependents in the case of a fatal accident? There was absolutely no reason in logic, in equity, or in existing facts for this provision. He earnestly hoped that the Government would see their way to amend the provision and adhere to the existing state of things in this respect. Let them not make the future law worse than the present. They were all hoping for an improvement, but this particular provision was quite reactionary.

* said there was nothing in the complaint which had been made as to the House not having had time to consider this Bill. It was merely the application of principles which had been sanctioned by the House for many years. Consequently he thought the time the Bill had been before the House had been ample for its consideration. The hon. Member for the Northern Division of Ayrshire, in his new-found zeal, had desired to include in the Bill certain classes who were not included by the Home Secretary. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that hon. Members on the Government side of the House would support him in his endeavours to secure a greater inclusion in the Bill. All sections of the House would congratulate the Home Secretary on the frame of mind he had brought to bear on this Bill. He was sorry the right hon. Gentleman had not been able to make the Bill more general and to include the other sections which he had purposely omitted. He saw no reason why the right hon. Gentleman should not have included domestic servants, clerks, and shopkeepers' assistants. Surely these were important occupations. It was perfectly true that they were not organised, and perhaps they might not be directly represented in Parliament, but at any rate they worked as hard as the other classes who were included in the Bill and they were just as worthy of relief. He certainly thought the right hon. Gentleman would have improved the Bill if he could have seen his way to include these classes. He understood that one great objection to their inclusion was the cost that might be put on employers for insurance. He believed that the insurance for the three classes mentioned would be lighter than for any of the other classes already included in the Bill Their inclusion would not add to the burden on employers, or the burden would be so slight as scarcely to be felt. He thought also that the right hon. Gentleman might have included workmen in the service of employers who did not employ more than five. If they recognised the principle of compensation they should make it of as universal application as possible. It was a hardship for the poor men who were employed by small masters if they met with an accident that they should not be on the same terms in regard to compensation as those who worked for larger employers. Therefore, he hoped that before the Bill became law the right hon. Gentleman would include the classes he had mentioned, and also the men who worked for the smaller employers. He did not think there would be any difficulty in including them. The right hon. Gentleman might commence a system of universal insurance, which was recommended by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean. He had included in the Bill men who worked for small masters in whose places machinery was used, and men employed in trades which were in any way dangerous. If the principle of compulsory insurance were applied, those who were not included would be able to get the benefits of the measure and the cost would be very small. He was glad that the right hon. Gentleman had promised to look into the matter in order to see whether compulsory insurance could not be applied in all cases in future. He thought most hon. Members had promised to their constituents to endeavour to get compensation for all accidents in all employments. They thought they had the support of their leaders, because on no single occasion had the leaders denied the statement. The Home Secretary had stated that the time was not ripe for extension of this legislation. If it was not ripe now he should like to know when it will be ripe.

* certainly thought the time was ripe now for including the three classes which had been omitted from the Bill, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give an assurance that they would be included. He assured the right hon. Gentleman that he was not carping at the measure. He knew the Bill would bring relief to a very large number of hard workers and they would be duly grateful for it. Not only would they be grateful, but hon. Members on the Ministerial side were also grateful to the Government for having extended the measure in the way that was proposed.

said that he, as well as most employers in the present day, was entirely in favour of extending the Workmen's Compensation Act to almost all workmen. Of course, he did not entirely agree with the Bill as it now stood, because there were many points which required consideration and alteration. He did not agree with the sub-section which provided that the time during which compensation would not be paid should be reduced from a fortnight to a week. An hon. Member had already used the word "malingering"; and although he did not wish to accuse any one of doing anything of the kind, he thought that if the time were reduced to a week there would be a much greater chance of malingering than now. If a slight accident happened to a man which laid him on the shelf for five or six days, that man, human nature being as it was, would extend that time further if he could, so as to be entitled to compensation before he went back to work. He was supported in that view by perhaps the largest employer of labour in the country. He referred to Sir Andrew Noble, who had written a letter to The Times on the subject. In that letter Sir Andrew Noble said that the Elswick firm, of which he was chairman, long before the Compensation Act came into force had entered into an arrangement with their workmen to pay compensation for all accidents. In 1893 the firm employed 7,000 men and the percentage of accidents was no less than 10·84. In 1897 the percentage was 14·68. All hon. Members would admit that that was a very high percentage. After the Workmen's Compensation Act came into force in 1899 the number of men employed by the firm was practically 13,000, and the percentage of accidents was only 2·12, or one-seventh what it was in 1897. In 1903 the men employed numbered 12,000 and the percentage of accidents for which compensation was paid was only 1·68. He would read one sentence from Sir A. Noble's letter, in which that gentleman sought to explain how that fall in the percentage of accidents for which compensation was paid had taken place. Sir A. Noble said—

"The explanation is pretty obvious. If a man meets with a slight accident, painful perhaps at the time, and if from it he suffers some inconvenience for a few days afterwards, we can hardly wonder that, receiving as he would a large proportion of his wages (or even in many cases more than his wages) he preferred to stay at home, although it might be quite possible for him to come to work were it of importance to him that he should do so."

He referred to that letter to show what the effect of this Bill would be if it became law, and the time was reduced from fourteen to seven days. The effect would be that the number of accidents for which compensation would be paid would be very much greater than now. As a shipbuilder he could bear out what had been said by the hon. Member for the St. Austell Division, that employers of labour did not really anticipate what the effect of the Act of 1897 would be. At that time the insurance companies asked them to pay 10s. per cent. insurance, but to-day they asked 20s. per cent., and for the reason that the insurance companies knew what they were doing. If the time for compensation were reduced to seven days every little accident in a shipbuilding yard would have to be compensated for, and it had been calculated on a very good basis that instead of having to pay £1 per cent. for insurance shipbuilders would have to pay £3 per cent. He put it to his hon friends the Labour Members, for whom he had a great respect, whether that would be in the interest of the workmen themselves. He said distinctly "No" and for this reason. In good times when there was a boom in shipbuilding, and the builders were making money, £3 per cent. insurance might be paid and nobody would be much affected. But during the years 1900, 1901, 1902, 1903 and 1904 no ordinary shipbuilder in this House or in the country made money; and they had to sacrifice part of their standing charges in order to keep their yards going. Of course there were certain shipbuilders who had patents who showed profits in those years, but he was speaking of the ordinary shipbuilders. Was it right that under these circumstances they should have to pay £3 per cent. insurance? The effect would be that instead of carrying on their works they would say, "This is not good enough. We cannot afford to pay insurance for our workmen at £3 per cent., which on a wages bill of £100,000 would amount to £3,000 a year." There were very few shipbuilders who would think of carrying on their works at all under such circumstances, and scarcity of employment would follow. At the same time, in cases of serious accidents, where a man was disabled for two or three months, most employers would be agreeable to pay compensation from a week after the accident occurred. As to certain diseases which were engendered by employment being treated as accidents, it seemed to him that it would be very unfortunate for an employer to pay the whole amount of compensation where that man might have been in his employment only for a fortnight or a month. The Bill, as he understood it, implied that such an employer could fall back on the previous employer; but that previous employer might not be able to pay. Possibly the right hon. the Home Secretary would consider that point and alter the Bill in that regard in Committee. Fortunately or unfortunately, he was, in addition to being a shipbuilder, a shipowner, and he represented shipowners who thought that it was unfair to drag sailors by a side wind into this Bill. They had had a Report of a Departmental Committee which sat in 1903 and 1904. That Committee fully considered the case as to compensation and also took into account the question of compensation to sailors. He must say that he was entirely in favour of the principle of compensation being given to seamen, and had been so for a long time, but he did not think it was right that it should be incorporated in this Bill. His reason was this: that sailors were not at all on a par with men employed on shore, and the question of their compensation required to be considered altogether apart from the question of the compensation of men who were employed on shore. Ships at sea were subject to many risks over which the employer had no control, and were liable especially to accidents. In many cases these accidents were of such a nature that nobody could have foreseen them and in many cases they were due to the act of God. If sailors were included in this Bill, the shipowner would have to pay in exactly the same way as if he or his agent had been in default. Therefore he said that on that ground alone sailors should be treated separately from those employed in other capacities. Another very substantial reason why these men should be treated differently from those who worked on shore was that the latter worked only eight or nine hours a day, during which time the employer ran the risk if he met with an accident of having to compensate him. But what happened in the case of the sailor? The sailor was on board ship for the whole of the twenty-four hours of the day and the night and the ship was subject to an accident during the whole of that time, and therefore the liability of the shipowner was largely increased. All these matters were taken into consideration by the Departmental Committee, which consisted of men in whom the House might repose the most unbounded confidence. It included Mr. George Barnes, the Secretary of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, who now occupied a seat in this House and sat amongst the Labour Members. It had not a single shipowner upon it, and therefore it could not have been influenced at all from the shipowners' point of view. That Committee said that the leading question raised by the evidence was whether the principle laid down under the Workmen's Compensation Act could be reasonably applied to the seaman. Another question was whether or not the machinery of that Act could be adapted to seamen and trusted to work smoothly; and the third was, if so, what Amendment could be adopted to apply the Act to seamen so as to give them similar compensation to that given to other workmen. The Committee fully conceded what everybody conceded, the principle, and recommended that effect should be given to it without delay, but they did not consider that the provisions and machinery of the existing Act could be applied to seamen for many reasons. The Report went on to state the reasons, which he would not trouble the House by reading. There was no reason whatever, if this compensation was to be extended to seamen, why a clause making a provi- sion to that effect should not be inserted in the Merchant Shipping Bill now under consideration in Committee. That measure was under the control of the Board of Trade, and it was much more fitting that the Board of Trade should control matters relating to seamen than that they should come under the control of the Home Office. There was no chance of the Merchant Shipping Bill coming before the Committee before Whitsuntide, and there was no reason why the clause in this Bill dealing with seamen should not be withdrawn and a clause treating seamen specially added to the Merchant Shipping Bill. Shipowners were already liable where other employers were not. If a sailor fell ill on board they had to support him, and they had to send him home at their own expense. They also had to pay his wages during the whole of the time he was ill on board until landed.

* repeated that it was the case. His contention was that the conditions of seamen were entirely different from those of the ordinary worker on shore, and that therefore this question ought to be taken in hand by the President of the Board of Trade and not by the Home Secretary. In conclusion he should like to say that it was a very great pity indeed that this Bill, which was only introduced last week on the Tuesday or Wednesday, should be now under discussion. He was very anxious to get a copy of the Bill, but it was not until Friday that he could get one, and no employer of the United Kingdom had had an opportunity of seeing the Bill or at any rate of fully discussing the Bill with those belonging to the trade. He thought it would have been a very much wiser plan if the Bill, instead of being put down for discussion the day before and that day, had been deferred until after Easter, in order to give the employers of the country not only an opportunity of reading it, but of considering it. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way not to force the Second Reading of the Bill to-day, but would adjourn the debate in order that the Bill might be brought before the House after the employers had had an opportunity of discussing it. He should like to warn the right hon. Gentleman that although apparently there was not a very great interest taken in this Bill by any one in the country, it was only because it was not understood. Let the Bill be once understood in the country and the House would see great agitation. Such a thing had happened before. It happened in the life of the right hon. Gentleman's father, when a great Minister still in this House was President of the Board of Trade. He brought in a Merchant Shipping Bill, and he remembered hearing from the strangers' gallery a magnificent speech upon its introduction. But the shipowners of the country rose against it, and the right hon. Gentleman's father made short work of it. That was the last the House heard of it. The reason was that the shipowners of the country rose en masse against it. When he used the expression the shipowners of the country, he wished the House to understand that he did not mean merely himself and a few others. He meant hundreds of thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of voters of this country who owned shares, The same thing would happen on this occasion as had happened on the previous occasion if a full opportunity was not given for discussion and the Bill amended.

did not think that the hon. Baronet who had just spoken wanted more time to consider this Bill, because he seemed to have gripped the particulars of it, especially that portion of it which related to his own trade. For himself, he was one of those people who had a great deal of commiseration for people in sorrow. When he heard from the hon. Baronet that he was an unfortunate shipowner he pitied him.

said that if it would afford the hon. Baronet any relief he was willing to change places with him, and he did not think that if he did so he should be in a much worse position than at present. The hon. Member had descanted very clearly upon the position of the employer, but he seemed to lose sight altogether of the position of the workman who depended upon every day's means for the support of his wife and family. The hon. Member did not seem to realise the position of a man who found himself deprived of the means of obtaining the necessaries of life for himself and those dependent upon him. As to the time at which compensation should commence, the great friendly societies, who hid very carefully watched this question and employed experts in order to safeguard themselves, had laid it down that if the effects of an accident lasted more than three days the man should be compensated. He remembered a discussion in regard to the passing of the Act of 1897.At that time he and others tried to reduce the fourteen days limit, and since then the strongest arguments had been adduced in support of the position which they then took up. The right hon. Gentleman had found out that the strongest argument in favour of this Bill was the position which those who represented Labour in this House in 1897 took up with regard to the Bill of that year. They then said that the Bill if passed would induce greater carefulness in the employment of the men. Figures had been quoted from Sir Andrew Noble which proved that, because the percentage of accidents in the trade over which Sir Andrew presided was not nearly so great after the Act of 1897 as it had been before. The hon. Member for Stockton had given data which would help the Labour representatives to enforce their contention in Committee, that compensation under this Bill should date from the day that the accident happened. The moment that misfortune fell upon a man should find him the recipient of the compensation to be given under the Act. It was too late to dilate upon the employers' misery. All that was knocked on the head in 1897. Of all the statements made that had since been falsified none had been so falsified as that of the dire misery which would fall upon the employers if that Bill were passed. Up to the present, at all events, the dire misery foreshadowed by the employers had not reached them. There was another matter which they tried to meet in 1897, and in which he thought time had proved them to be in the right. They said that that Act would be the means of a large amount of litigation. They were informed that it was passed to save litigation, but he thought an Act had never been passed in this country which had resulted in so much. He sympathised with the Home Secretary in trying to make this Bill a just one. It was difficult to build upon the debris of structure which had had to be pulled down. If the right hon. Gentleman had started de novo instead of trying to patch here and to patch there a perfect measure might have been brought into the House; a measure which partook of the nature of a National Insurance Bill, under which every man working in this country for his living should have a free right of access to the funds of the nation to compensate him for the injuries he had received. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary was quite ready to charge the Members of this House who opposed the Bill in 1897 with opposing compensation to working men. The right hon. Gentleman did him the honour to say that he (Mr. Wilson) was the most consistent fighter upon that Bill. He would have opposed this Bill for the same reasons. He believed the support of an injured workman should be a lien on the funds of the nation, and the sooner that came about the better it would be. That was the point they desired to arrive at, and that was the point they intended to arrive at. This liability should be a charge on the consolidated fund of the country. When they arrived at that stage they would save a good deal of litigation. He commended this Bill because it was better than the previous measure and abrogated the silly conditions which were in that Bill, such as that if a man was injured on a building thirty feet high he had to be compensated, but if he was on a building only twenty-nine feet and eleven inches high, and had a far worse accident, he could not be compensated. There was one other point. That was the question of dependents The present Act, as it stood, removed the sisters and brothers of a workman who was killed from his "dependents." The dependents of a working man were denned by the Act of 1846, and though that Act included stepfather, stepmother, stepson, and stepdaughter, it excluded sisters and brothers. He had known in his experience a case where a young man had taken on himself the position of maintaining his brothers and sisters in what might be called the time of their orphanhood and when he was killed there was no compensation so far as they were concerned. This Bill deserved commendation for altering that as well as other things. Then with regard to young men of under twenty years of age. The Act had been in operation now for some nine years, and he knew a case of a person who was now a man who was injured when he was receiving 9s. or 10s. a week. He received 50 per cent. of his wages as compensation; he received 5s. a week and was receiving it now, because he was permanently disabled. This Bill provided that 10s. a week should be paid, but he submitted that that was not enough. He contended that these matters should be reviewed from time to time, and that a man permanently disabled should receive 50 per cent. of the wage he would have been able to earn had he not met with the accident. He thought the Bill would be a better Bill if the words "by accident" were taken out altogether. No word had created more litigation than that word "accident." The word "injury" would cover everything, certain provisions being made in the schedule as to certain forms of injury which arose as a result of the unhealthiness of the labour upon which workmen were engaged. He also found fault with the hon. Member for the Ince Division for his differentiation between young and old men. Men should not be put into a category of over sixty and under sixty. He was up in the sixties himself and was still a young man, and he would feel very much injured and aggrieved if he had an accident coming down to this House or in the lobby and the people who paid him for coming here made a distinction as to his compensation, because he was over sixty. Did the Government see where their policy was leading them? This was a plain declaration that the old men were being unfairly dealt with, otherwise a separate clause would not be made for them. He could quote case after case where men had been discharged, and where there was a strong inference, if not absolute proof, that they were discharged because of their grey hairs. He urged the Government to face this question boldly and not to father the idea that men were being discharged because they were either old or weak. He would like the Home Secretary, if he could, to provide for this in the Bill. In the second Schedule there was a mention made of committees forme dby workmen and employers. In 1897 he brought a suggestion before the House that the proper and most reasonable and just way of working this Act was to work it through such committees. He would now suggest, although he was not a lawyer, that in every place where there was power given to a county court the same power should be given to the committee of workmen and employers to deal with these matters as were given to the county court. He himself was the secretary of a society which met once a month. He had in his hand the report of their meetings last year. That committee had settled since the Act came into force 747 disputed cases. They had obtained from the masters compensation to the extent of £97,488 and the cost to the workmen of obtaining that was £2,453. He would suggest to the Government that they should strengthen that provision, and insist so far as they could on the formation of these committees and their extension. His committee was formed in 1897 and it had operated since upon the lines he had indicated and had saved the masters and the workmen a considerable amount of litigation. He thought that trustees ought to be appointed by the committee to take charge of the sums of money that might otherwise be wasted. He knew of instances where large sums of money had been paid over with the result that within a few months the whole amount had been run through. He pleaded ignorance as to the mode of doing the tiling, but he did say that with a committee formed they would have machinery set in motion that would conduce to the saving of very large sums. With this power given to trustees the matter would be in the hands of men who knew the people and their circumstances, and in their hands would be placed the investment and management of this money for the widows and children. He believed in compromise and conciliation. He believed that the closer the employers and employed came together the better for all concerned. He believed it was better to provide means of conciliation rather than compel parties to resort to law which created friction. He looked forward to the time when there would be a national fund out of which every man and woman injured in the course of his or her work would receive compensation. Whence came the great fortunes? Out of the united efforts of capital and labour, and the man who reaped the largest return should pay the largest quota to the insurance fund. They were told that this was provision for the wounded soldiers of industry. Let all who reaped the fruits of industry pay. The royalty owners, with their six or seven millions —who took 8d., 9d. and 10d. for every ton of coal raised—ought to pay their share towards compensating the wounded miners, and the widows and orphans of the men killed. They would take this Bill as an instalment only, until they obtained a truly equitable measure.

* said he should like to congratulate the Home Secretary upon the general principles of the Bill, although he thought there were points which might he considered in Committee. He agreed with certain previous speakers that it would have been better if more time had been given between the First and Second Readings, because there were many people interested in this Bill throughout the country who were not at all aware that the Second Reading was to be to-day, and they would have liked to consider the Bill more maturely than they had had an opportunity of doing. He agreed with hon. Gentlemen who considered that lump-sum commutation was undesirable, as the amount was often wasted, and did very little good to the recipients, and if some other means could be devised for paying weekly sums, he believed it would be of much greater value. With regard to the reduction of the period from a fortnight to a week, he agreed that there was considerable danger of encouraging malingering by the reduction. He thought that where a person was disabled for more than a fortnight, it could be arranged that he should be credited at the end of the compensation period with that fortnight. That might be a way out of the difficulty and would meet certain cases in which, under existing conditions, perhaps there was a hardship. He had received communications from his constituency with regard to the clause as to the employment of more than five men. In his constituency there were many small fishing craft engaged in the mackerel and herring fisheries which had mostly got six men, the craft being worked on the share system, the owner being very often the captain, who took a share, as did the crew. It was with great consternation that they had seen this Bill introduced, because they feared that if the crew had to be insured under the Bill it would make it impossible for the industry to be carried on, and the men would be turned out of employment. He hoped, there fore, the right hon. Gentleman would consider whether it was not possible to exempt them from the operations of the Bill. Many hon. Members felt that only justice had been done in abolishing the clause of the present Act with regard to the thirty feet limit, and also in including seamen in the Bill. He was rather surprised to hear an hon. Gentleman below the gangway opposite complain of the men over sixty being allowed to contract with their employers for less than the full compensation in the event of accident. He was under the impression that that was put in with a view of giving these men an opportunity of getting employment, which very often now they could not get, and he considered it was very desirable that this clause should stand as it was. He would extend that clause so as to enable men who were disabled to be brought within it. He instanced the case of a man in South Wales with a wooden leg who had sought vainly for employment all over the country. No one would give such a man work, because of the risks of compensation. If he could be brought within this reduced scale of compensation an employer might find such a man a light job at smaller wages. In regard to the case of shipbuilding yards and engineering works, where men took guards off dangerous machinery on their own initiative and contrary to the rules and regulations of the employers, he agreed that it was hard that in such cases the employers should have to pay full compensation in case of accident. It also seemed to him to be unfair that apprentices should be compensated on the same scale as fully qualified workmen.

* thanked the Government for introducing the Bill., which was a great advance on the present Act. He was interested in the objection of the hon. Member for North Ayrshire that the proposals of the Government did not go far enough, and his suggestion that other workers and even soldiers should be included. He could promise him an. opportunity of voting for the inclusion, of some of them in Committee, and the sincerity of his professions would then be tested. He was glad the Government had extended the provisions of the Bill so as to include diseases of occupation. Whether those diseases could be described definitely as accidents or not the result to the workman was exactly the same, in asmuch as he was injured and prevented from following his employment. It would be necessary for the Labour Party to get the number of the diseases enumerated in the schedule considerably extended. He was glad that the anomaly with, regard to the thirty feet limit and "in and about the factory" had been done away with, and that the Bill extended the provisions of the Act with a few exceptions to practically the whole of the workpeople of this country. The Clause relating to small employers was, in his opinion, a blot. So far as this Bill was concerned, the position of the workman ought to be looked at. Whether he was working for a small employer or a large employer the result to him if he were injured would be the same. He would lose his opportunity of earning wages. Therefore the Government ought to say that all employers should be included and that there should be compulsory insurance. If an employer was unable to pay the compensation, then they would have a much stronger case next year upon which to come to the Government and ask them to introduce a Bill for compulsory insurance. He was pleased that the question of average wages was to be dealt with in the way proposed by the Bill. The taking of the "average wages" for the previous twelve months and as a guide to compensation was most unfair. It had often happened that a man had been sick or out of work for some portion of the year, and the taking of the average wages paid had resulted in a very great grievance, because not only had the man lost in his wages, but in his compensation also. He thought the Bill of the Home Secretary was a very satisfactory one and one which, with a few additions and alterations in Committee, would be appreciated by the work-people of this country. With regard to whether the compensation should commence from the date of the accident, he pointed out that in these cases it was the poorest who suffered most. It was impossible for people earning 18s. or 20s. a week to put by anything for a rainy day, and that if an accident happened to the wage-earner their sufferings commenced from the first day of the accident. If it were necessary to have either the three days or the seven days, then if the accident lasted for any length of time, the payment of compensation should be made retrospective. He welcomed the clause that gave a definite amount as a basis for compensation. To his mind the question of commutation was one of the most important points of the new Bill. The commutation of an award was a very important matter. These commutations had been before the Courts repeatedly, and different bases had been fixed by different judges for arriving at the amount to be given in commutation. He remembered one case in which the County Court Judge refused to reduce the compensation below £1 a week, jet when he was asked to commute that compensation, he gave the miserable sum of £150, or only half of three years wages. Another Judge had given £300, and he had heard of one instance where the compensation was less than £1 a week and the commutation was £500. In his opinion too much discretion was left to the Judge in these matters; there ought to be some definite basis upon which they should work. He would suggest that the Judge should first arrive at what the man was able to earn in weekly wages, then he should ascertain the capital sum that would bring in an annuity of that amount: and the workman should receive 75 per cent. of that amount. He was pleased to hear the hon. Member for Mid. Durham's remarks as to minors. With regard to permanent disablement, the Bill took a proper course by providing that the cases of persons permanently injured should be entitled to come up for review, and that the Judge should then have power to award to the injured man an amount up to 50 per cent. of that which he would have earned if he had not had the accident. He knew of a case where a lad of fourteen years of age working in a spinning mill was so unfortunate as to have his arm taken off. He was then in receipt of 10s. a week and the compensation amounted to 5s. a week. He received that 5s. a week, but as the law now stood as soon as he was able to earn what he had earned previously to his accident the compensation could be stopped. He had to commute it for £40, and the lad was now going about with one arm and had got practically nothing for it. That, in his opinion, was wrong. They ought to look to the lads of to-day, who were the men of the future. The question of medical referees was a very important one. The medical referees at present were not all of them absolutely fair. He had known leases where the medical referee had been the surgeon employed by the insurance company. In those cases the work people could not have confidence in their judgment, because there was bound to be, so far as the workpeople were concerned, a certain amount of bias in regard to this particular matter. He suggested that medical referees should be made civil servants, that they should have large districts, and that they should not be permitted to do any other work. Then the workpeople would have absolute confidence in them. They would have no need to be otherwise than fair. Their salaries would be secure, and they would have good positions.

* : I have to express my acknowledgments of the very fair, not to say generous, consideration which has been given to the Bill during the debate. My hon. friend the Member for North Ayrshire complained that we had hurried on the Second Reading. I should be very sorry if this was the case, but I think the House will recognise that for the most part the Bill is one of detail. It does not contain those large principles which the House generally wishes to discuss on a Second Reading. All those principles were discussed at considerable length in 1897, and I do not remember that there was any considerable debate in 1900 on the very important Bill which extended the Act of 1897 to about 2,000,000 men. But, in any case, as the Committee stage is certainly the most important stage for the discussion of the Bill I can undertake that the House will have plenty of time for consideration. The Easter holidays must intervene before we take up the Committee stage. My hon. friend, though he was in the main friendly to the Bill, did not hesitate to give a few back-handers at it. I was really trying to get at what his true point of criticism was, because it seemed to me that his arguments were mutually destructive. He began by complaining of the number of people who were without examination, without sufficient inquiry, put into the Bill, and then he complained of the omission of a great number of people. On the First Reading the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham came into the House at half-past five and sat down beside my hon. friend, by whom he was posted up.

* : Yes. At any rate I saw the right hon. Gentleman taking notes, by the side of my hon. friend, and I do not know how he got his information if my hon. friend did not give it to him. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham got up and said that the Bill involved a denial of ordinary justice because it did not include clerks, domestic servants, and so forth. I do not understand how my hon. friend reconciles his position with that taken up by his right hon. friend and colleague the Member for West Birmingham. My hon. friend complained that we had cut out out-workers, soldiers, and sailors, and had introduced the limit of five. As I have said in an interruption, the limit of five' was really recommended by the Departmental Committee, and was adopted by my hon. friend and the late Home Secretary when they introduced their Workmen's Compensation Bill last year with regard to workshops. If it is right with regard to workshops, I do not see why it is wrong with regard to other classes which were not in the Bill of the late Government at all. The late Government considered and the present Government consider that there is a risk with, regard to the inability of the small employer to make good the payment to the workman entitled to compensation. My hon. friend also complained that outworkers had been cut out, but they were also cut out of the Bill of last year. He complained that soldiers and sailors were cut out. So they were from the Bill of last year.

said the Bill of last year was based on an entirely different principle. He asked his right hon. friend for some explanation why from a Bill based on a different principle—namely, that of exempting certain classes—he had excluded these particular classes who had certain claims which he had laid before the House.

* : We exclude soldiers and sailors for precisely the same reason that my hon. friend did not include them last year. My hon. friend also found fault with the Government for not dealing with bogus insurance companies, but the late Government did not propose to deal with them in. the Bill of last year. However, I quite agree that that is a good point. It is right that where insurance companies take large responsibilities upon themselves with regard to the insurance of workmen, they ought to be in a stable condition. Several hon. Members have raised the question of the shortening to seven days of the period which must elapse before compensation can be claimed under this Bill, and different views have been expressed with regard to that. It is essentially a question to be threshed out in Committee, but I should only like to say here that, personally, the French system has considerable attractions for me as an alternative method; that is to say, a period of four days, and, in the event of the injury lasting for ten days, the compensation to date back to the date of the injury. It is a matter for serious consideration, and when we get to the Committee stage, it will certainly receive close attention. But when I quote the French system the House must not suppose that I am going to adopt it. As to the clause dealing with aged workmen, that is a difficult matter, and I had some doubt upon it, but the clause in the Bill was recommended by the Committee. It is really a question, to my mind, for the House to debate and decide. The Government has really no very strong feelings about it; they realise that there are very strong arguments against it, and certainly they have not prejudged the question. The hon. Member for Stockton spoke rather vehemently against the inclusion of seamen in the Bill. I confess I did not quite follow the hon. Gentleman's arguments, and with all respect, I did not quite follow the arguments of the Departmental Committee. The hon. Member said that shipowners would rise en masse against the Government so long as this proposal remained in the Bill, but, at the same time, he agreed that the principle was right that seamen ought to be included. Really, if the only difference between us is whether seamen should be dealt with in the Merchant Shipping Act or in this Bill, it seems to me that it is no more than a difference between Tweedledum and Tweedledee, and I do not think the hon. Gentleman will be able to raise the country on such a point as that. The hon. Member for Mid Durham spoke about representative committees, and asked that they should have powers given to them under the Bill. I would point out that under the first schedule, paragraph 22, powers can be given to representative committees by order of the Secretary of State to direct how the compensation is to be applied and invested. The hon. Member for Bolton made some comments on the question of industrial diseases. On that question I am quite ready to listen to any arguments with sympathy; but the matter is a new one, and before I commit myself to anything, I must wait to hear the arguments that may be pressed upon me in favour of making additions to those already inserted in the schedule. I maintain that these special diseases are in the nature of accidents of occupation. It is an accident when a germ attacks a man's skin or when lead-poisoning enters into his constitution. It is an accident of employment. But it is a new proposal and there are great difficulties connected with it. I hold, however, that the arguments in favour of the inclusion of other diseases in the list under the Bill may be such as to entitle us to accept a new principle, and to face the difficulties which arise. With regard to the classes which are excluded by the Bill as it stands, it is the intention of the Government to include all occupations which are at all risky, and we are prepared to do so, even, in the face of considerable danger regarding the inability of employers to meet their obligations where such serious risk exists. We have therefore included dangerous trades such as that of seamen, fishermen, transport service, and so forth. We have had the experience of the Act of 1897 to guide us, and also the Report of the Departmental Committee, but in this Bill we have gone further than the recommendations of that Committee, and have included seamen and fishermen and have put in industrial diseases. All these matters open up fresh points of difficulty, and as it is the Government are deluged with questions as to the results of the new proposals which they have put into the Bill. They think the proposals to include clerks, shop assistants, and domestic servants had better come from the House. If we had proposed to include these classes, we should have had to be prepared with arguments which, perhaps, we are not altogether conscious of possessing. Hon Members will be able to bring to the Government a mass of information which we might not otherwise be able to command. The Government are prepared to consider upon their merits suggestions as they arise. There is nothing in the construction of the Bill which will stop a full and fair consideration of proposals which may tend to improve the Bill, and there is no logical reason for excluding classes like clerks and shop assistants if hon. Members can show that the difficulties can be overcome. Take the shop assistants: you have in England alone 700,000, and you have 200,000 or 300,000 more in Ireland and Scotland—probably 1,000,000, or at all events, 900,000. Perhaps half of those are single assistants. Therefore there are some 450,000 shop assistants who are the sole assistants of the small shopkeepers by whom they are employed, and the House will have to consider whether it is advisable and safe to make these small grocers, drapers, and bootsellers liable under the Act. Many a small employer will not be able to burden himself with the payment of 10s. a week so long as his assistant is incapacitated by an accident. It is obvious there will have to be some limit. If domestic servants are also included it will bring under the Bill another 1,000,000 people, including those in the little households and cottages where a servant girl is kept. There is no reason why these cases should not be considered, but difficulties will arise with regard to them, and I hope hon. Members will have their own solution of them. That is all I have to say, and I thank the House for having listened to me. The main principle of this Bill is to extend as widely as possible the benefits of the Act of 1897, and wherever the Government can by arguments and reason be convinced that further additions ought to be made, and will, if made, be in conformity with the main purpose of the Bill, they will gladly accept such proposals.

said he wished to approach the consideration of this Bill from a different point of view to that of previouss peakers. He had no mandate to speak on behalf of the shipowners, and was in the habit of expressing his own opinions with some independence. But he had a mandate because the constituency which he represented was one of the largest working class shipping constituencies in the kingdom, and those who sent him to the House of Commons, if they did not themselves "go down to the sea in ships" nearly all of them lived by our great shipping trade. To these people connected with shipping he had explained more than once the views which he hoped to state to the House on the subject of workmen's compensation, and they had the approval not merely of those of his constiuents who shared his own political views but, as he believed, of many others. He had always been a most cordial supporter of legislation based upon the principle of the Workmen's Compensation Act; and he had endeavoured, not always successfully, to get his shipowning friends to share his views. To-day he had the satisfaction of knowing that a large body of shipowning opinion was in accord with him. In 1903, before the appointment of Sir Kenelm Digby's Committee, he gave notice of his intention to move a Resolution in the following terms—

"That this House, while approving generally of the extension of the Workmen's Compensation Act to all who would be likely to be benefited thereby is of opinion that, in the case of seamen, inquiry should first be made as to the probable operation of such extension, and particularly as to whether the effect of extending the Workmen's Compensation Act to seamen, without adequate safeguards, would not be to deprive British sailors and firemen of their occupation, and encourage the employment of foreigners without family ties in this country; and further, as to whether it would not be both practicable and desirable to provide such safeguards by a system of national insurance, whereby as a condition of Customs entry all ships, whether British or foreign, frequenting British Ports should, without distinction of nationality, be made to contribute pro rata on a tonnage basis whatever funds were required to provide compensation, and in such manner that the burden would be shared equally by British shipping and their foreign competitors trading to and from ports in the United Kingdom."

The luck of the ballot was against him but the inquiry which he suggested had been made, and the Committee did not recommend the provisions of this Bill. To be of much useful service the compensation paid would have to be very considerable, and if this was to be a fresh burden upon British shipping the effect would be that foreign shipping competing without such a burden would be benefited exactly to the extent that British shipping would be handicapped under the Act in its present form. What would be the natural thing for the ship-owner to do under these circumstances? Would he not prefer to employ those on whose behalf no claims were ever likely to be made? He had a kindly feeling for seamen, for his forbears had been seafaring people; his grandfather was a shipmaster who lost his life in the Bay of Biscay. He was not the only yachtsman in the Mouse. That brought him in contact with a good many fishermen and sailors. He was therefore speaking with some experience, and he held that there was no class in the community who deserved so much that the principle of compensation should be extended to them. But the natural effect of the Bill as it stood would be to place the seaman with a family or dependents at a disadvantage and lessen his chance of employment as compared with the unmarried seaman or the foreigner. The only way to get over this difficulty was by some kind of national insurance. He thought that the necessary money might reasonably be obtained by collecting dues from every vessel which used the hospitality of our ports, and that the funds should be administered by a Government Department, like the Board of Trade. The provisions of the Bill now before the House would operate to the disadvantage of the best class of seamen, He was a steamship owner, and the Bill did not greatly concern him, but he did know that the matter was regarded as very serious indeed by some of his hon. friends who were owners of sailing ships. The House knew something about French shipping bounties, although some hon. Gentlemen opposite said bounties had not been successful. They knew nothing about it. Bounties, at all events, had been successful in putting the owners of British sailing vessels in an extremely difficult position. They found it increasingly hard to make both ends meet through those bounties, and if they were now going to put on the British shipowner, and especially on the sailing ship owner, a burden which they were not going to put on his foreign competitor, they would do something more to complete the destruction of what he was sorry to say was already very much of a decaying industry, that of sailing ships. Those ships were a valuable nursery for our seamen, and he should be exceedingly sorry if anything were done to bring further disaster upon that industry. A point which did not seem to have occurred to the Secretary of State for the Home Department was the position in which a master of a ship would be who wanted to send a boat to the assistance of those on a ship in distress. Was he to have, if Clause 8 remained in the Bill, the knowledge that if anything happened to his gallant men he had, by allowing them to do what they could to save life, brought the owners of the vessel under very large pecuniary liability? He had expressed his strong desire that a measure should be passed giving compensation to seamen, but this Bill would not give it. He did not think the Secretary of State for the Home Department had given the Report of Sir K. Digby's Committee the consideration it deserved. No one could deny the ability or the impartiality of the gentlemen who comprised that Committee. There was not the least doubt about the trouble and care they took about this investigation, and there was no sort of hesitation in the Report which they made. The Committee said that the circumstances appeared to point to the need of some system of compulsory insurance which would provide the intended compensation with complete security, without imposing an undue burden on the shipowners or the seamen. Their Report was well-reasoned and he thought, was quite in harmony with what he had endeavoured to state to the House. But it was distinctly not in harmony with the principles of this Bill. [Cries of "Divide" from the MINISTERIAL Benches]. He thought he had said enough and more than enough for hon. Gentlemen on the other side who knew nothing about the subject, and who were supporting a Bill which they had never read, and the provisions of which, so far as they related to seamen, they did not understand.

And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed to-morrow.

Evening Sitting

Dover Harbour Board Bill [Lords] (by Order)

Twickenham and Teddington Electric Supply Bill (by Order)

Read a second time and committed,

Contempt of Court in Ireland

rose to call attention to the law of contempt of Court in Ireland; and to move, "That the jurisdiction of Judges in dealing with contempt of Court is practically arbitrary and unlimited, and calls for the action of Parliament with a view to its definition and limitation." He said that this was a subject of the most absorbing interest to Ireland, and anyone who looked into the returns for the last five years in connection with commitments for contempt of Court in Ireland would at once see the seriousness of the subject. In the three years ending December 31st, 1904, no less than forty-six persons were committed for contempt of Court, and were imprisoned for periods varying from one to 516 days. For the two years previous to December, 1901, the commitments numbered thirty-nine and the terms varied from one to 337 days. It was only fair for him to say that about one-third of these commitments had relation to the Bankruptcy Court. These commitments involved interminable imprisonment—in fact, imprisonment for life, if the Court so wished, Unlimited fines might also be imposed. In their absence persons could be committed. There was no appeal. Not even the clemency of the Crown could terminate the imprisonment of persons committed for contempt of Court. Contempt of Court could not be clearly defined in common law, and its jurisdiction was derived from tradition around which a haze of uncertainty rested even amongst the Judges because it had never been defined by Parliament. What happened to be in the mind of a particular Judge was practically what the law of contempt was for that particular Court. With the permission of the House he would quote an English authority upon the state of the law. He would give two short extracts from Oswald's work upon Contempt of Court—

"The jurisdiction as to contempt of Court and the punishment following upon it, whether by fine or imprisonment, are so indefinite and uncertain, and the mode of convicting of it, and the manner of punishing it so much more consonant with the feelings and necessities of ancient times than with those of modern days, that it may reasonably be said that the whole subject of contempt of Court and its punishment ought now to be dealt with, regulated, limited, and defined by Act of Parliament."

"It may surprise some people when they know that according to the law of England the liberty of the subject may at any time be summarily interfered with for an indefinite period, or that anyone may be lined in an. unlimited amount without any right of appeal, at the will of an individual, for an alleged offence, the limits of which offence in its nature puzzles the lawyer to strictly or even adequately define."

This law of contempt could be invoked and its machinery brought into operation by an outsider and an interested party, and the Judges were bound to act. He was not making any attack upon the judiciary, because if wrong was done it was obvious that the fault rested with Parliament and not with those officials who were called upon to administer the law. Upon this point he would quote the words of an eminent statesman, Mr. Gladstone, who on October 24th, 1882, used these words in connection with the Dwyer Gray case which was discussed in the House, and was made the subject of an inquiry by a Committee. Mr. Gladstone said—

"I venture to intimate to the House that it is a subject which has been brought much of late into popular view both on this and the other side of the Channel, and that the Government have it in contemplation, not during the present short sitting, but at the regular commencement of next session—they have it in contemplation—and hope at a very early period to submit a measure dealing with the altering of the present law."

Mr. Gladstone then moved that Mr. Gray's committal be referred to a Select Committee. Mr. Gladstone carried out his word, and a Bill was introduced dealing with this subject. The Bill went through all its stages in the other House, but then there occurred a change of Government which left it practically out of the power of Mr. Gladstone to fulfil his promise. Mr. Gray at the time was a Member of this House, and also. High Sheriff of the city of Dublin, and he had previously been Lord Mayor of Dublin. At that period there was in operation in Ireland one of the eighty-two Coercion Acts which were passed during the last century. This Act left it in the hands of the Executive to apply for a change of venue, and, taking advantage of this, some Clare peasants were brought to Dublin to be tried. A special jury was summoned under the Coercion Act. Out of 193 of the Dublin jurors 112 were Protestants, and although the five peasants who were being tried were all Catholics not a single Catholic was allowed to sit on the jury. A prisoner named Francis Hynds was being tried for a capital offence and the jury at night stayed at an hotel where they were allowed to separate. Some of them went down to the bar, and, he was informed, drank more than was good for them, mixed up with the public in the billiard room, and indulged in other irregularities. This state of things was testified to by the personal evidence, and by letter, of a gentleman who was now an hon. Member of this House. Those irregularities were commented upon in the Press, including that great organ of which Mr. Gray was the proprietor, the Freeman's Journal. Mr. Gray, as the House would remember, was brought before Judge Lawson and fined £500 or three months imprisonment, with three months additional imprisonment if he failed to obtain bail in £5,000, with two sureties in £2,500 each. He refused to find bail and went to prison. There was a very remarkable circumstance in regard to this case. The Judge gave him into the hands of the coroner, who was the only executive officer to act when the high sheriff was not available. This officer had been previously summoned to the Court by the Crown Solicitor, who informed him that they might require some official information from him. There was a van standing outside well-known by the name of "Black Maria," by which it had been arranged that Mr. Gray should betaken to the gaol, but for some reason or other another mode of conveyance was adopted. The whole matter was reported in the Blue-books. The next case he would refer to was that of the hon. Member for North Sligo, who had received the attention of the authorities in Ireland on many occasions—as had every Nationalist who did not choose to sell himself to the Castle— and had passed a period of imprisonment under a statute of Edward III. Another case was that of Mr. Molloy, who had been transferred in peculiar circumstances from Tullamore to Kilmainham gaol. Mr. Molloy was attached in his absence, sentenced to what might have been a life term of imprisonment, and ordered to be lodged in Tullamore gaol. There was an Order in Council by which Kilmainham was set aside for those cases, and so the Governor of Tullamore gaol refused to admit the prisoner. The Sheriff of Westmeath, however, was equal to the occasion, and he struck out of the committal Tullamore and substituted Kilmainham. This was made the grounds of a Motion before the Court of Queen's Bench, and the present Attorney-General was leading counsel for Mr. Molloy. The remarks of the Chief Baron upon that occasion were very remarkable. He said—

"Attention has been drawn more than once in Parliament to the long periods of time that persons arrested under attachments in Courts of Equity are detained in custody. Now, no such reproach—for it is a reproach—has ever been brought, or could now be brought, against this Court of King's Bench Division. The law on the subject of procedure by attachment in reference to contempt in the King's Bench Division has been clearly established, and indeed never doubted."

In another passage in his judgment the Chief Baron said—

"It is therefore quite intolerable that a plaintiff should be allowed to procure a defendant to be committed to prison, and that he should leave him there and do nothing to have him brought before the Court. It is imperative on the plaintiff to see that the defendant in such a case is brought before the Court, and that the proper procedure is taken, for the purpose of having it determined what punishment he is to be subjected to. We ought, therefore, to make an order that a writ of habeas corpus do issue to bring up the body of the defendant on Saturday morning. The plaintiff should have done it, and as he has not done it we will not have the defendant kept in prison."

The result was that Mr. Molloy was liberated in five days. Perhaps the House would permit him to refer to a little personal experience of his own which happened in 1889, when the late Prime Minister was Chief Secretary, in connection with the Gweedore trials at Maryborough, Queen's County. The right hon. Gentleman was then the strong man in Ireland. For ten days special jurors who were Roman Catholics were set aside, and at the end of that time, when his name was called, he addressed a few respectful words of protest to the Judge. The Judge appeared to take the protest in good part, but he was fined £25 and was assisted out of the Jury Box by a policeman. He did not desire to give any offence to the Judge; he spoke most respectfully to him, but he thought then, and he thought now, that the jury were part of the constitution. He had been summoned there, and he had as good a right to act as the Judge had. There were others of his colleagues who followed suit, and they were each fined£25. But something still more remarkable happened in the Court house the same afternoon. It happened that there was a Scotsman on one of these packed juries. A Donegal peasant was being tried on a capital charge in Queen's County by a Protestant jury. At the most solemn period of the case this honest Scotsman turned to the Judge and said—

"My lord, I object to try a man for his life on a packed jury."

That night the Crown officials approached the prisoner's counsel and offered to take a plea of guilty on a minor charge, and the whole case terminated next morning. He commended the moral to the attention of his friends in Sligo and Galway which had lately been the happy hunting ground of jury packing, because not a case had been attempted since in Queen's County, except one of which the hon. Member for South Kildare had a lively recollection. He would conclude by referring to a case which brought the law of contempt up to date in Ireland. At present there were three Cavan peasants in Dundalk gaol. Their case, like most others in Ireland, arose out of a difficulty in regard to land. The receiver and the land grabber had put the law in motion. These peasants were attached, and they had no opportunity for defence. There was no opportunity for sifting the evidence against them by cross-examination, which was the great and potent; factor in exposing falsehood and of proving truth in any case. It was stated in answer to a Question the other day that these three men were kept for twenty-two hours out of the twenty four in solitary confinement. When their friends were permitted to see them the prisoners were behind a grating in the same way as a lion or a tiger was kept in a managerie, and there was a warder present to take notes. An application was made to the Judge on that occasion for a stay of execution in order that there might be an appeal, but the learned Judge said—

"There is no appeal."

He desired to make an appeal for these peasants who were in solitary confinement. They had asked for a trial, and they were prepared to stand a trial. He desired further to make an appeal for the liberties of his countrymen, for the freedom of the Press, and for the right of public meeting and of lawful combination which had been assailed in Ireland through the arbitrary exercise of this jurisdiction. He appealed with great confidence and hope to this Liberal and democratic House of Commons. He appealed to the Chief Secretary, but not for words of sympathy which had no effect. Lip sympathy was of no use to the three men confined in Dundalk gaol. This was not a matter where the right hon. Gentleman had to hide himself behind the Treasury. It was not a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence. It was a matter in which, if he had the will, he could act. He begged to move.

said that only a few nights ago they were engaged on a discussion upon martial law, and with another phase of that same class of subject that discussion was resumed to-night for the law of contempt of Court as it existed affected not Ireland only but this country as well, because this was a grievance which affected the United Kingdom and not one part of it alone. It affected more grievously that part which hon. Members from Ireland represented, and it could be likened to nothing more than that negation of all law which martial law had recently been correctly described to be. The Motion they were discussing tonight was not a Motion limited to Ireland in form or in substance. It denounced that jurisdiction as both arbitrary and unlimited, and it called for Parliamentary interposition as necessary in order to its definition and limitation; and inasmuch as the case was one that affected the whole of the United Kingdom he proposed to trouble the House with some references drawn from the least possible controversial channel as to the character of that jurisdiction and as to the care with which it was to be guarded. In these classes of cases the Judge was called upon not infrequently to preside in matters in which his own dignity was concerned. It was contempt of the Court or might be contempt exercised by contemptious and insulting expressions towards the Judge of the Court in his official capacity. It was quite true that his judicial capacity did not shelter him from insult of another description in which he took his chance with the rest of the subjects of the Crown, but sitting in his judicial ermine and exercising his judicial functions he was, as he ought to be, protected. He (Mr. Blake) did not deny that in the public interest the Judge exercising the majesty of the law might be entitled of necessity to some power in order to restrain offences not against himself alone officially but which interfered with or derogated from the administration of justice. Such a jurisdiction might be justified on two grounds. First from the necessity of the case it might be necessary to take prompt action, and, secondly, from the circumstance that the existence of the jurisdiction had a beneficial effect as a preventive force. While he quite admitted therefore that guarded, carefully surrounded, hedged round by such precautions as limited it to the necessities of the case, the jurisdiction to interfere by the Judge for contempt of court might be a proper part of the constitution, he affirmed that it was in its nature a necessary evil to be jea ously watched and guarded by the public and Parliament and to be administered with the utmost care and deliberation by those who exercised such arbitrary and invidious jurisdiction. The proceeding was absolutely summary; it was also absolutely arbitrary. It was within the jurisdiction of the Judge to punish or to commit to prison for a time, or during his pleasure, which might last no one knew how long. It was within his jurisdiction to punish by fine. There was no jury and no official. There was no appeal as in all other cases affecting the liberty of the subject in which a jury did not form part of the machinery for the trial of the subject, so that there was no protection for the subject in deliberating any limitation of sentence, in the presence of a body of his fellow countrymen to take part in the trial and the examination of the case, or in the appeal to a superior tribunal to correct the errors of the Judge. Therefore it was clear that this jurisdiction for contempt of court might and did supersede the regular courts of justice with their precautions. It had been well said by an authority on this subject that the mysterious and undefined offence would seem to be as easy to commit as it was liable to prompt to condign punishment. It involved this wholly exceptional interference with the liberties and rights of the subject by a process which would be intolerable, and which would be found to be utterly intolerable by this House and by the community among which they were assembled, if it were exercised otherwise than with the greatest care, deliberation, and rareness, and with direct reference to the necessities of the occasion. Unfortunately, he was unable to say that it was so exercised in the country from which he came. But whether here or there it was a jurisdiction which was the growth of an earlier period of the national and social existence of the people of this country. It was a jurisdiction which had its birth in an arbitrary period, at the time when our system of constitutional freedom and our notions of the rights and liberties of the subject were not such as they were to-day. This jurisdiction deserved reconsideration and Parliamentary action just as much in fact and in theory for this island as for the adjoining island. Besides the cases of contempt of court to which he had referred there were a great number of kinds of so-called contempt to which the observations as to necessity and of propriety, so to speak arising out of the necessity for immediate action, did not at all apply, namely, where the contempt was committed, not in the court or in its precincts, but in places external to the court, and where it was not so concerned with the administration of justice that immediate and prompt summary action was necessary in order that the administration of justice might be maintained. When the act was of a kind which the law called criminal, this criminal act ought otherwise, in his judgment, to be dealt with in the ordinary courts of law, and not by the summary and arbitrary process to which he had referred. Necessity, again, was the measure of the proper application of this particular power. Necessity must be established—a public necessity—a necessity for the administration of justice, for this encroachment on the ordinary liberties of the subject. Therefore, in these cases the proceedings should be by information, or by indictment, or by whatever might be the proper method to obtain trial with a view to precautions for securing justice and for deliberation, instead of by the sudden and summary proceedings before the Judge—proceedings which terminated in punishment regulated according to law, and which left the right of appeal to the Crown for the prerogative so-called of mercy, but which was in truth part of the administration of justice. This whole business was opposed to the genius of English law. It was opposed to all those things which they held most dear. The great Lord Chatham said that the main result of the English constitution was the putting of twelve men in the box. Trial by jury, the association of the pople themselves with the trial of their fellow countrymen, and the determination of guilt or innocence, was the chief jewel of the constitution. He frankly admitted that there might be limitations to the use and the security of trial by jury. He held that in no case should there be an absolute discretion on the part of an individual Judge to imprison for life; and as to the amount of the fine he held that in no case should there be an immunity from appeal and possible correction of judgment, and he held that in no case should there be an abolition, by disuse or otherwise, of the prerogative of the Crown to intervene. He had said that in this island the evils which were possible for this arbitrary power were opposed to the genius of our whole system. It was known that here there were many laws which had become obsolete, because people had ceased to attempt to use them, because they were repugnant to the feelings of the people of to-day. They were practically blotted out of the Statute Book. Thus the operation of many utterly severe and barbarous laws was mitigated by the same circumstances and conditions. Still, where it was found that there existed this arbitrary power and that it was occasionally exercised and boasted of, it was better that Parliament should take security against its abuse rather than trust to the force of public opinion. Even here reform was wanted. He wished to trouble the House with a few citations, unpleasing though it was for the House to listen to them, from Judges who had been called upon to exercise this power, for they would have greater weight than any words of his. There was a case in the year 1861 where an attorney had previously assaulted a party in a suit within the precincts of the court after an inquiry in the Master's office, where there had been some unpleasant words between the parties. There was an application to Mr. Justice Coleridge for an attachment. He held over judgment, saying that he wished to look into the authorities. When he gave judgment he said—

"It cannot for a moment be denied that every court should have the power and the means of protecting itself and its suitors against contempt. This is a duty of a public nature, incident to courts of every kind, and from the exercise of which the highest should not shrink, for the privileges of courts are not held for the personal and peculiar advantage of the members of such courts, but in trust for the public advantage and general weal. But if it be needful, as I admit it is", that this summary power should exist, so also should courts be careful and chary in the exercise of it. Even in cases where there is much seeming reason for the exercise of a summary power, it is often wise to pause. …There are many cases in the older digests and abridgments on this subject, undoubtedly of a severe and stringent nature, and such as would ill bear to be applied in the present day. In refusing this rule, however, I must not be thought for a moment to underrate the importance of preserving the respect due, or the immunities pertaining to courts of justice. If any matter arose requiring prompt interference I should not be slow to protect the suitor and to vindicate the authority of the court; but in the present case I feel that the remedy by indictment and by criminal information before the ordinary tribunals are both open to Mr. Wilton, and it therefore seems to me that I ought to decline to grant this rule in the manner in which it is prayed for."

Then Mr. Justice Willis, a Judge of the highest reputation, referring to a question of contempt arising out of the refusal to answer a question in the trial of an information for bribery, said—

"I apprehend, however, that a conviction for a time certain, is a correct, if not the only correct, course. Such a commitment is in effect a sentence upon a summary conviction for an offence against the law…"

Then there was the case of Pollard, who was a barrister in the Bahamas in 1886. In those days it was supposed that the Colonies did not understand their own affairs, legal or otherwise, as well as was done here. A petition was made to the Crown in regard to the case, and it was referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for their opinion. In the Report of the Privy Council it was stated—

"That in their Lordships' judgment no person should be punished for contempt of court, which is a criminal offence, unless the specific offence charged against him be distinctly stated and an opportunity of answering it be given to him; and that in the present case their Lordships are not satisfied that a distinct charge of the offence was stated with an offer to hear the answer thereto before sentence was passed."

That view was acted upon, and the fine imposed remitted. He now came to one of the most important pronouncements on the subject by one of the most eminent lawyers of his day, the late Sir George Jessel, Master of the Rolls. In 1877 in the case re Clements amp; Erlanger, Sir George Jessel said—

"It seems to me that this jurisdiction of committing for contempt being practically arbitrary and unlimited, should be most jealously and carefully watched."

They were not ashamed to say that they borrowed the words of the Motion under discussion from this judgment—

"And exercised, if I may say so, with the greatest reluctance, and the greatest anxiety on the part of Judges to see whether there is no other mode which is not open to the objection of arbitrariness, and can be brought to bear upon the subject. I say that a Judge should be most careful to see that the cause cannot be fairly prosecuted to a hearing, unless this extreme mode of dealing with persons brought before him on accusations of contempt should be adopted. I have myself had on many occasions to consider this jurisdiction, and I have always thought that, necessary though it be, it is necessary only in the sense in which extreme measures are at times necessary to preserve men's rights, that is, if no other pertinent remedy can be found. Probably that will be discovered after consideration to be the true measure of the exercise of this jurisdiction."

Lord Justice Mellish in the same case entirely agreed with the principle laid down by the Master of the Rolls. That was the true limit of the jurisdiction— necessity. A judge must find that it was necessary in the public interest that this summary, arbitrary, unlimited, and undefined jurisdiction should be exercised before he dared to lay his hand on the ark of the covenant of the English law. There was an English case re Davies in 1888. Mrs. Davies was imprisoned for contempt for disobeying an injunction during the eighteen months from December, 1880, to June, 1888. In discharging her, Mr. Justice Mathew said—

"It should be borne in mind that contempt of court is a criminal offence, punishable as a misdemeanour by fine, or imprisonment, or both."

And he quoted Mr. Justice Willis in ex parte Fernandez as to commitment for time certain; and then Mr. Justice Mathew added—

"A commitment until the offender consented to give evidence would not in my judgment be the proper order to make. On the other hand, where it appears that the Act done is due to a mistaken view of the rights of the offenders, the punishment where imprisonment is deemed necessary should be for a definite period, and should not be severe. We are not without guidance in dealing with cases of this description from the ordinary course of administering the criminal law according to the custom of England. It would not be right for a judge sitting in the criminal court, and compelled to sentence a prisoner, to direct that his imprisonment should continue until some condition, however reasonable the condition might be, had been complied with. Further, we had the assistance of the opinion of the Legislature against indefinite imprisonment for contempt of court expressed in Acts of Parliament and rules having Parliamentary sanction."

And then Mr. Justice Mathew went on to quote these Acts and Rules, all of which indicated that the custom of the English law was to have a definite sentence, and not an unlimited sentence. Then in the case of Hunt v. Clarke in 1889 Lord Justice Cotton, quoting the Master of the Rolls in the case re Clements said—

"That I adopt, and apply as a principle which ought to regulate these applications. In my opinion no application to commit for contempt of court ought to be made unless the offence is of so serious a nature as to render the excuse of this summary jurisdiction necessary to prevent interference with the course of justice, and though here there is technically a contempt, I cannot see any such fear of serious interference with the course of justice or prejudice to the defendant as to justify the court in interfering by this summary and arbitrary process. If a thing is done wilfully which really would prejudice the parties to the cause before it comes on, I should not hesitate to commit to prison anyone who so offended. But of course that jurisdiction is to be exercised by the court only in extreme cases, and it would be most unfortunate if the court readily took it upon itself to interfere in such a summary way in order to ensure the due conduct of business."

And so again, in the case of O'Shea v. O'Shea, Lord Justice Cotton and Lord Justice Lindley made similar observations on the same subject. In the case of Queen v. Payne in 1896, which was a newspaper case, Lord Russell of Killowen, Lord Chief Justice, said—

"I wish to express the view which I entertain, that applications of this nature have in many cases gone too far. No doubt the power, which the court possesses in such cases is a statutory power and it ought to be exercised in cases where there is real contempt, but only where there are serious grounds for its exercise. Every libel on a person about to be tried is not necessarily a contempt of court, but the applicant must show that something has been published which either is clearly intended, or at least is calculated to prejudice a trial which is pending."

He had said so much with reference to the line of judicial decisions in England and he now would put out what had been the line of Parliamentary action in England. The first reference he had to make was to the case of Craddock, which occurred in 1875. That case was tried at the assizes, and there was no official report of it, but a question was put in the House by Sir William Lewis in regard to it. Craddock was charged with some offence, and was in the end acquitted of that offence; but in the course of the proceedings Craddock made an observation to a fellow prisoner which was unheard by either the judge or the jury. The judge inquired what that observation was, and was told by the turnkey that the observation was that—

"He would give it to him, or do something to him when he came out."

The learned judge immediately sentenced him to twelve months' imprisonment. He was glad to say that, although there seemed to be no doubt in some cases that there was no power to remit such sentences, in this case the Crown released the man after a few days. His hon. friend had pointed out that as long ago as 1882 Mr. Gladstone, who was then leading the House, acknowledged that this question was not merely an important question, but one which much interested public opinion. Questions of this kind did not occur every day in England, and they only excited public opinion for the moment. The fresh tide of new events, swept away the events of the preceding day, and public opinion did not act. That was not so in Ireland, where such questions made a great impression on the public mind. Mr. Gladstone, in referring to Gray's case, said—

"The Law of contempt is a question of great general interest…I venture to intimate to the House that it is a subject which has been brought of late much into the popular view both on this side and the other side of the Channel; and that the Government have it in contemplation—they hope at a very early period to submit a measure dealing with, and altering the present law."

That measure was brought in in the following session by Lord Selborne, the then Lord Chancellor. It limited the penalty of imprisonment to two months, fixed the maximum fine at £500, and gave a right of appeal. The Bill which was supported by the other law Lords passed through all its stages in the House of Lords, but as was the case with many other Bills, it did not get on in the House of Commons, and was dropped. The case being more pressing in regard to Ireland, several Irish Bills were brought in. Before referring to these he wished to quote what had been said in the House by Mr. C. E. Lewis when the case of Craddock was brought up in Parliament. That Gentleman said—

"The experience of the last twenty-five years was of that character that it undoubtedly required governmental and Parliamentary interference. The sort of contempt which has sometimes been committed is a contempt which the judges have brought upon their court themselves. We have heard of judges, who have put it into force because there was not a sufficient number of javelin men to escort them through the town. There are other cases also in which the judges have forgotten both themselves and the courts in which they sat…What are judges, and who are judges? They are gentlemen clothed in ermine. Many of them have been appointed —and in Ireland it is said they are always appointed for political reasons. I will not express any opinion upon that. I am afraid that the record if inspected would be too serious to look upon. I am afraid we should find there is hardly a judge upon the Irish bench who has not ascended that bench through the greasy ladder of politics…Do judges make no mistakes? Have they no tempers like other men? Have they no bias like other men?…I think it is high time that such a change be brought about as will remove one of the greatest scandals connected with the administration of Judges."

In 1892 a Bill was brought in on the subject of contempt of Court, the sponsors of which were Mr. Warmington, K.C., Sir Robert Finlay, the late Attorney-General, Mr. Cozens-Hardy, now a Lord Justice, the present Lord Coleridge, Mr. Gainsford Bruce, and Mr. Birrell, the present Minister for Education. By becoming sponsors for that Bill that galaxy of able and eminent men showed that they believed in the necessity for some change in the law. He had pointed out why the Irish Members had taken this question up. The real truth was that arbitrary laws and coercion Acts formed so large a part of common life in Ireland that the Judges there, irrespective altogether of what Mr. Lewis had said, did not regard as the Judges of this country did, with the same jealousy, trial by jury and other securities of the law. They were accustomed to proceedings in prosecutions far more arbitrary than would be tolerated in this country. In little more than nine years there had been 238 committals for contempt of Court in Ireland, no less than thirty of these having been made by one Judge, and his last case was only last month. It was really extraordinary that such a state of things should exist in a civilised country. Two persons were brought up for contempt of Court, one of whom was president of the United Irish League Branch in his neighbourhood and the other was a district councillor. The ground of contempt of Court was that they had interfered with a receiver of an estate under the management of the Court. The Court whose duty it was to sell encumbered estates had become nothing but a great agency to collect rents with no idea of the lands being sold. In fact, it had become so scandalous an abuse that even in the time of the late reactionary Parliament, a Resolution was passed calling for the abolition of that Court. To revert to the case, it was said that at a meeting the chairman of the United Irish League and the district councillor had said something with reference to a piece of land which had been rented to a tenant by the Court. Counsel for these men who were charged with interfering with the receiver of the estate under the charge of the Court read affidavits which had been put in by them, in which they explicitly denied that at the time of the meeting they had any knowledge whatever that that particular property was in possession of a receiver of the Court. No implication of knowledge was made by the other side, and no evidence was called to disprove the statement. Counsel for the persons charged offered to bring evidence that they had no knowledge that they were infringing on the property of the Court, and he argued that if the men were to be tried at all it should be for unlawful assemblage and not for contempt of Court. The Judge, however, pooh-poohed all these objections, and determined that these persons should be committed for contempt of Court during his good pleasure, and they still remained in gaol. He contended that it should be made clear that this summary power should not be used where the ordinary process of law was applicable, and where no public interest demanded immediate action. He maintained that the offence to be adjudged contempt of Court should be wilful, that the sentence should be definite, and that in all criminal cases there should be a definite maximum sentence; and a power of release at the pleasure of the Judge. Further, he contended that there should be a right of appeal, and that the prerogative of the Crown should exist in these as in all other cases. All the House was asked to do on the present occasion was to say that this prerogative was arbitrary and indefinite and called for the consideration of Parliament with a view of its definition and limitation. He begged to second the Motion.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the jurisdiction of Judges in dealing with contempt of Court is practically arbitrary and unlimited, and calls for the action of Parliament with a view to its definition and limitation."—( Mr. Delany. )

* congratulated the hon. Member upon having brought this matter before the House. Contempt of Court was one of those old contemptible weapons which belonged properly to the period of the Star Chamber. It had not of late years been very frequently employed in this country, because we had the safeguard of public opinion, but in countries where that public opinion did not exist it was invariably abused, and in no country more than in Ireland. He had seen something of the administration of justice in Ireland. He was with one of the best journalists, Mr. Massingham, during the trials at Maryborough, when Father MacFadden was concerned. They saw something of that jury-packing alluded to by the hon. mover, and he could well understand that the power of committal was a grand weapon in the hands of an Irish Judge in a case like that. He had himself had entrusted to his care a case of contempt of Court from one of our West Indian Colonies. The Judge there seemed to think that his power to commit for contempt of Court was the only really useful power he had to exercise. Public opinion was considerably excited over a certain question, and there were strong newspaper comments on the manner and mode in which this Judge exercised his discretion in the administration of justice. Very soon the Judge found it necessary to resort to this power. A paper was found in the public library which contained very severe strictures upon the Judge. It appeared that a barrister of this Judge's Court had handed that paper to the librarian because the librarian's copy had not arrived. This particular barrister was a man who had interested himself on behalf of those who were working in the plantations. He was indeed called "The Uncrowned King," and the Judge had his eye upon him. When he found out about the newspaper the Judge thought that the barrister was delivered into his hands at last. He got another counsel to move a rule for contempt of Court, and the barrister was ultimately sentenced to fourteen days imprisonment. Having suffered that imprisonment, he came over to this country and put the case into his (the hon. Member's) hands. He enlisted the sympathies of that distinguished advocate Dr. Blake Odgers. and they were fortunate enough to get an appeal before the Privy Council. There they had the benefit of a judgment from that distinguished deceased Judge, Lord Morris, one of the very ablest members of the Privy Council. He washed hon. Members who desired to understand something of this power of committal for contempt to read Lord Morris' judgment. The result of the proceedings was that the decision was reversed, and the Judge had the almost unique satisfaction of having to pay the costs. As Lord Morris pointed out there were other remedies open to a Judge whose dignity had been assailed, and he could bring an action for libel. But what was the origin of contempt of Court? It came from the Crown. The origin was that respect should be paid to the Crown, and to the representatives of the Crown on the seat of justice, and he could not understand how it could be said that there was no power to appeal to the Crown when the very power of committal itself came from the Crown. He challenged the statement that there was no power of appeal. The hon. and learned Member for South Longford had pointed out that there had been many attempts made to get an appeal measure passed through this House, and he sincerely trusted that the result of this discussion would be a determination on the part of the House that a Bill should be brought in which would practically abolish the power of committal for contempt of Court, or, at all events, secure that the power was defined and regulated and not left an arbitrary one, at the caprice of the Judge. He was sure that the present democratic House would take care such a Bill, at any rate, passed through that Assembly, whatever happened to it in the another place.

said he wished to call the attention of the House more particularly to the operation of the law of contempt of Court in Ireland. Those who represented Irish constituences were over and over again told that they had the same laws in Ireland as in England. That was quite true in the majority of cases, but the administration of the law in Ireland was separate and distinct from the manner in which it was carried out in England. The law in England was administered in accordance with and controlled by the opinions—the popular expressed opinions—of the English people, but in Ireland it was invariably administered in the direction of the violation of popular opinion and against the spirit of the people of the country. The Land Judge's Court, for instance, was originally established to sell encumbered estates, but like a good many other things in Ireland the original object for the constitution of the Court seemed to have been lost sight of, and the Court had now become in effect the biggest landlord in Ireland. Supposing a man trespassed upon an estate or committed other offences against his landlord he was brought before a Court in Ireland consisting of that landlord and was sent to gaol. What would be said about such a system in England? A magistrate who sat upon his own case would not be allowed to remain on the Commission of the Peace for one day, and every newspaper in England would accuse him of maladministration of justice. He agreed that there should be a short, sharp, and summary way of dealing with contempt so long as the law existed. But let the House look at the return of persons who had been committed for contempt of Court during recent years. Let them deal only with the Land Judge's Court. They would find some very curious and instructive figures. He had left out of calculation cases where a man had refused to obey an order of the Court or to deliver up documents, because they were cases in which he thought the jurisdiction of the Court ought to be exercised. He confined himself to the general vague charge of contempt of Court, such as the cases which had been alluded to. Hon. Members, if they examined the figures, would find some very curious and hazy ideas of what was a short, sharp, and summary method. He found that one man was kept in prison for one year and fifty-nine days, another for 256 days, another for 298 days, another for 291 days, and then they came down to terms of 191, 163, 142, and 134 days. All these were cases in which there was no definite charge against the prisoner, but he was simply kept in gaol through the whim of the Judge.

He held that such a power ought not to be placed in the hands of any man unless there was a power of appeal. The Judge of the Land Court occasionally sat as a vacation Judge in the Court of Exchequer and in the Chancery Division, and instead of giving those guilty of contempt such long terms he followed the universal practice in those Courts and inflicted sentences of imprisonment for four days and nine days. A man ought not to have the right to have people brought before him for an alleged offence against himself and to send them to gaol for an unlimited period. Some power should be given to overrule the Judge in such a case. A short time ago the Viceroy of Ireland was of opinion that a certain individual who had been committed for contempt ought to be liberated, but the Judge who had an idea that his dignity had been affected absolutely refused to obey the directions which he received from the Viceroy. That did away with the idea that the Viceroy was the governing power and had the prerogative of mercy. Upon influence being brought to bear upon the Judge from another quarter he climbed down and the man was released. He hoped the Chief Secretary would agree to the terms of the Resolution.

* entered a protest against what was nothing more or less than an attempt to intimidate and reprove one of His Majesty's Judges in Ireland.

rose to order and asked the Speaker whether the hon. Member was in order in attributing to the mover of the Resolution an attempt to intimidate one of His Majesty's Judges.

* answered it was contrary to Parliamentary practice to impute motives to any Member.

* said he bowed to the ruling of the Chair, but he would direct the House to the wording of the Motion and to the speeches with which it had been supported. It was difficult for the average Member to grasp the crucial fact that the law in Ireland was exactly the same as the law in England. He said deliberately that the terms of the Motion were calculated indirectly, if not directly, to convey some measure of censure on His Majesty's judiciary in Ireland. He had no desire to impute motives. As a Scotsman who had had the pleasure of spending a quarter of a century amongst the Irish people, he had also had the privilege of serving His Majesty on all kinds of juries, and had always found them willing to weigh calmly and deliberately the evidence put before them. But that was not the case in all parts of Ireland. In those districts which were dominated by the United Irish League it was no longer possible to expect juries to discharge the duties which their oath called upon them to discharge. [NATIONALIST cries of "Oh."] He claimed to have knowledge of what he said, and unfortunately it had been found to be the case by the Law Officers of the late Government. He ventured to prophesy that before the present Attorney-General for Ireland had occupied his honourable position very long he would find what his predecessors found, and would regret bitterly the limitations in the discharge of his office, which he found necessary to give to his prospective constituents when he was a candidate for Parliament in Liverpool.

May I be permitted to say that I gave no pledges to my constituents of any kind whatever as to the duties of my office.

* said he was bound, of course, to accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement. [NATIONALIST cries of "Oh" and "Withdraw."] When his Nationalist friends had given sufficient expression to their feelings he was prepared to continue his argument. Reference had been made that evening to certain remarks of Mr. Justice Gibson. He had no acquaintance with, that learned Judge except in the discharge of his judicial office, and he was bound to say that, so far as he had had an opportunity of witnessing his judicial conduct or of reading of it, he was one of the most calm and dignified of His Majesty's Judges either in England or in Ireland. Reference had also been made to the apparently startling fact that another of His Majesty's Judges—he supposed Mr. Justice Ross was referred to—had during the last year committed some thirty persons for contempt, but the hon. Member who referred to that fact was judiciously silent as to the fact that Mr. Justice Ross by the law of the land was in charge of the land obligations of one-fourth of Ireland, and had therefore to deal with one-fourth of the agrarian litigation of that country. It was due to that fact that he had to commit so large a number of men to prison for contempt of Court. He had only intervened in this debate because he was satisfied that a deliberate effort was being made to prejudice the judiciary of Ireland in the eyes of the new Members of that House. He believed they had every right to be proud of His Majesty's Judges in Ireland, and the manner in which they discharged their duties. Reference had been made to the manner in which members of the Irish Bar were promoted to the Bench, but so long as the choice of Judges was exercised with the care and discretion which had marked all the appointments made in the past, he saw no objection whatever to that method of selection. Again he could only regret that so much of the time of the House had been occupied with this Motion.

* expressed the opinion that this House could not be occupied with anything more profitable than a Motion which would reconcile the Irish people to the principles of justice and make them a law abiding people. It was because he thought that this Motion moved in that direction that he desired to say a few words upon it. As had been pointed out by the hon. Member for South Longford, the jurisdiction of Ireland was a peculiar one. It was unique in the administration of justice and it was unique in procedure. There was no doubt that contempt of Court could be punished by imprisonment and by fine, and that that administration was entrusted to an individual. It was unique in the respect that while there was a summary jurisdiction in the hands of an individual, there was no appeal from his decision. This administration was still more unique if the opinion of successive Law Officers of Ireland was right. He was far from saying himself that they were right. But from 1855 downwards the Law Officers of the Crown in Ireland had advised the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland that he had no power to remit a sentence for contempt of Court, but that the only person who had power to remit a sentence passed for such an offence was the Judge who passed it. As it was a civil matter the Lord-Lieutenant could not commute the sentence; as it was a criminal matter, the Courts of the land could not review it. It depended, therefore, for its authority on the fiat of one single mind. Why should they not try and bring Ireland into a condition of obedience to the law —to bring not the law down to the people but the people up to the law? He was going to make one observation now which he would not make if it were not that he was going to follow it by another. There was not a single man on the Irish Bench now, with the exception of the Lord Chancellor, who was in sympathy with the political opinions he held, and there was not a single man on the Irish Bench who had not been or sought to be a Member of this House with the exception of two gentlemen who were members of a political association. But he who had practised before them could testify that every single one of them, including the Judge who had been assailed in this House or, if not assailed, whose conduct had been impugned, were men who had an infinitely strong bent towards justice. He had perfect confidence in the fact that there was not one of the members of the Irish Bench who was not moved by a strong sense of justice. But was that enough? In the administration of the law, was it not still more important that there should be a feeling of confidence among the people that there was a strong bent towards justice in the Judges? If the people of Ireland could be brought to believe that the law of contempt of Court was administered for the good of the country, and with justice; if they could be reconciled to the administration, and have assurance that every case was carefully considered, the law would be respected. The remedy was simple; let this law of contempt never be resorted to unless there was no alternative. Let there be an appeal to the Court of Appeal in Ireland, and every man in the country would have absolute confidence that a case before that Court would be thoroughly considered and patiently heard by eminent Judges, whose decrees would command respect. In every Judge there was a discretion to proceed by way of indictment, and many Judges had exercised that discretion. The law of contempt should be limited, and put upon a clear intelligible basis. It should never be exercised when there was the alternative open. Did anybody remember the lamentable case where a man was sent to gaol for contempt and forgotten, and was kept there for a considerable time before it was discovered that he had not been liberated? He himself obtained an order to commit a man for contempt, and handed it to his solicitor, but told him not to enforce it. And for some time the attorney was walking about with the order in his pocket. Was that a fair thing? Ought not the law to be put on an intelligible basis? Was it fair to the Judge? Would not the Judges like to have their judgments reviewed and their authority indicated? If once they had a right of appeal it would be one step towards making the people of Ireland the law-abiding people that the people in this country were, and a step towards that condition of things which had made England great and would keep her great for ever.

said that to the general charge contained in the Resolution before the House he would have taken no exception if it had not been for some of the things said in the course of the debate and the tone given to the discussion by certain speakers below the gangway. It was suggested that there was some difference or distinction between the law in England and the law in Ireland relating to contempt of court, but he did not think that any suggestion of the sort could possibly be sustained. It seemed to be suggested also that in some way this power to commit for contempt was derived from Star Chamber times, and was inconsistent and wrong, having regard to the powers that existed for trial by jury. But there was authority to show that the right to commit for contempt of court was as old as the right to have trial by jury. It dated back before Magna Charta, and any interference with the process of the court, or with the officer of the court, was a contempt of court. He mentioned only certain kinds of contempt of court, because it was under that head that the recent cases which had excited so much interest among his countrymen came. The complaint against the gentleman who was committed from the court of Mr. Justice Ross, was in connection with the obstruction of the officer of the court who was appointed receiver and manager of a farm. It was hardly necessary for him to make any defence of so eminent, so upright, and so high minded a Judge as Justice Ross. Many Members of the House would not understand the peculiar position held by Mr. Justice Ross. He was simply a Judge of the Chancery Division who also presided over the management of the sales department of all the Chancery courts and he had a specially trained staff. A great number of the estates that were in his court could not be sold because, although the Judge and the parties might be willing to sell, they could not have a sale without a purchaser. Necessarily when estates remained in court and could not be sold receivers and managers had to be appointed. It was an unfortunate condition of things, but it was not due to any action on the part of the Land Judge. Since the Land Act the sale of land had again become a possibility in Ireland. The rents collected through receivers from the properties in court had shrunk from £2,000,000 a year to under £600,000, and no doubt it was being reduced daily. In order to carry out the very responsible duties extending over vast tracts of country it was necessary that the rents should be collected by receivers in the service of the court. They were the servants of the court, and in every district of Ireland there were receivers appointed by the Land Judge. In no other sense had Mr. Justice Ross acted as landlord, as had been suggested. He did what the law obliged him to do. Was it to be suggested for one moment that if a receiver of the court was interfered with in the management of the estate by meetings being held on a farm to prevent its being sold by the receiver and the matter came before the Judge, he was not to do precisely what any other Judge would do if he found an officer of the court being interfered with and deal with it as contempt of court? It was not true to say that those gentlemen were not heard in their own defence; they were represented by eminent counsel. He would not discuss whether the Judge was right or wrong in coming to a particular conclusion. It would be presumptuous for any person not at the trial to form an opinion on a case he had not heard. It would be an extraordinary thing if a Chancery Judge should not have the power to protect an officer of the court when that officer was interfered with, and to punish the persons who interfered with him. With a good deal that had been said on the Motion he had considerable sympathy, and he should not have intervened had it not been for the implied suggestion that had been made against an eminent Judge. There were only thirty instances of contempt arising out of the collection of £2,000,000 of rents a year, and in every case the Judge made very lenient orders. He had only committed persons for any length of time when they refused to undertake not to repeat the offence. Even in the case of a fine of £25 it was not proved that that fine was ever paid or exacted, or any Order made at all. If a Judge, who was known to be an honourable and upright man fined a juror £25 for contempt of court, it was fair to assume that the conduct of the juryman must have been such as to deserve it.

* said that in rising to speak on this Resolution he desired to say in the first place that the Solicitor-General for England, who was present during the beginning of the debate, had unfortunately been obliged to leave, but he had had an opportunity of conferring with his hon. and learned friend, and had told him the line that he proposed to take in this discussion. His hon. and learned friend had asked him to state that he entirely concurred in the views which he was about to express to the House. The Resolution dealt not only with the law of contempt of court in Ireland, but also with the law in England. Every lawyer knew that the law as regards contempt of court was the same in both countries, and he thought that hon. Members would agree that it was desirable that it should remain the same. It was satisfactory, therefore, that although the Resolution was directed especially to the case of Ireland its terms applied both to England and Ireland. But, although the law was the same, the practice had been very different, and the circumstances of the two countries were quite different. So a state of the law which might produce no injustice in England might produce very grave injustice in Ireland. Not much had been said in the debate upon the administration of the law of contempt of court in the Court of King's Bench, and the courts of Criminal Jurisdiction in Ireland, but reference was made by the hon. Member for North Londonderry to a matter connected with the swearing-in of juries, and that one fact showed how different were the circumstances in England and in. Ireland. For years and years there had been a marked difference in the systems of swearing in juries in criminal cases in the two countries; and here he desired to repeat what he had said by way of interruption, that what he had done as Attorney-General for Ireland in reference to the administration of the criminal law had been done because he thought it right, and in the interests of justice, and not by reason of any election pledges. He made no pledges or statements to his constituents with reference to the performance of his duties as Attorney-General. It was his desire, with reference to the administration of the criminal law, that trials in Ireland should, for the future, be conducted, as far as possible, in exactly the same way as they were in England. He only mentioned that by way of parenthesis. The matter of contempt of Court was not a pressing one at this moment in the common law courts or the criminal courts, nor was it in the ordinary jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery. They all knew that there were certain cases when the exercise of the power of committal for contempt was really necessary for the administration of justice in the Chancery Division, and nobody in the course of the debate to-night had called that right in question. But one of the Judges of the Chancery Division was in a very peculiar position—the Judge of what was formerly the Landed Estates Court, but was now the Land Judge's Court. There was nothing in England that corresponded to the state of affairs which, whether rightly or wrongly, existed as regarded that court. The speech of the hon. Member for North Fermanagh, to which they listened with great pleasure, and on which he must congratulate him, dealt, as they all noticed, with one particular Judge and one particular Court. The hon. Member was quite familiar with the procedure of the courts in Ireland, and he knew that it was in reference to this particular Judge and this particular court that the complaint existed, and that the question had arisen. That was the answer at once to the whole of his argument that, by reason of the fact that the law was the same in England and in Ireland, there was no necessity for this Motion or for any change in the law in regard to it. The Judge of the Land Judge's Court was originally appointed to deal with the sale of encumbered estates, but by reason, he thought, of the exaggerated value placed on the estates by the owners and the encumbrancers the sale of these estates was delayed for years and years, and the Judge was transformed by the circumstances into a kind of rent agent. When a poor tenant, who was ordered to give up possession, refused to do so' instead of being proceeded against in the common law courts, the order of the court was made for him to give up possession, and he was imprisoned for contempt if he did not do so. This state of affairs which did not exist, he believed, in England, showed that they must deal with the matter in Ireland in a different way, or, at all events, that precautions were necessary in Ireland which were not necessary in England. In regard to the recent case of committal before Mr. Justice Ross—he had not had an opportunity of reading an authorised report of the proceedings, but he accepted the facts he had been made acquainted with as being true—he thought he might say without offence to the learned Judge that the law as to contempt of court was pushed further by him in that case than in any that had occurred in his court before. It seemed to him that there was no parallel to that case. That being so, he thought they were all agreed that at all events the first portion of the Resolution was true. According to a very eminent English Judge, the late Master of the Rolls, Sir George Jessel, the jurisdiction of the Judges in dealing with contempt of court was both arbitrary and unlimited, and being applied to the particularly contentious subject of landlord and tenant relationship in Ireland, it certainly did require some amendment. On behalf of the Government, he should assent to the Resolution. They believed that the jurisdiction of judges was arbitrary and unlimited, and that it called for definition and limitation. In the first place, some right of appeal was necessary and desirable from the arbitrary decision of one Judge dealing with a matter which often concerned himself personally. He could not see why any judge, discharging his duty fairly, should object to such a right of appeal. In 1883 Lord Selborne, as Lord Chancellor, introduced a Bill which provided for an appeal from every order for a committal for contempt; and the right of appeal had over and over again been mentioned by Irish Judges as desirable in these cases. Then the system of indefinite imprisonment, at least, as punishment for past acts, should be put an end to. As a matter of fact, it had been put an end to in the King's Bench Division in Ireland. The third point in which it was desirable that the law should be amended was in respect of the prerogative of the Crown to pardon in the case of contempt of court. Was there any reason why the Crown should not have the power to deal with a case of contempt and signify its wish to pardon the offence? It was desirable also that there should be some rules laid down as to the treatment of prisoners committed for contempt providing that they should not be herded with murderers and pickpockets. These matters that he had mentioned, as the House would perceive, were large and important and, as the House was aware, there was an immense programme of business before the Government this session; it was impossible, therefore, to promise immediate legislation on the subject. It was desirable, moreover, that the legislation should deal with England as well as with Ireland, and that the law of the two countries should be kept the same as well as the practice. If the hon. Gentleman desired to press his Motion the Government were prepared to accept it.

said he did not wish to express any opinion on the pronouncement of the Government as to any change of the law. He was not a lawyer, and did not pretend to appreciate the niceties and peculiarities of the existing law, but with some regret he had heard the right hon. Gentleman apparently criticise adversely the action of Mr. Justice Ross in some cases that had been before him.

* : I beg pardon; I did not in any way criticise adversely the action of Mr. Justice Ross. All I said was that he had gone further than any other judge in regard to administering the law. I did not say whether he was right or wrong.

said he was glad to find the right hon. Gentleman did not wish to cast any reflection on that distinguished Judge. In many of the cases which came before the Irish Courts, and especially before the Land Judges' Court, there were peculiarities which were not to be found to any such extent in England. He did not think that anyone could with justice allege against any judge on the Irish Bench, and certainly not against Mr. Justice Ross, anything but the most upright discharge of his duties, and no one could assert with truth that he was animated by any other than a single desire to do his duty and administer the law justly and fairly as between all parties. He thought that was a view which would be held by all—certainly it was the view held on those Benches. On the merits of the proposed amendments of the law he did not pretend to express an opinion, but if he thought that the acceptance of the Resolution before the House carried with it censure on the action of any judge on the Irish Bench, he should certainly vote against it, if he were alone in the Lobby. To carry a suggestion for reform of the law and to accompany it with any censure on the men who had done their duty in difficult circumstances would be a most improper course, and one to which he should offer the most strenuous opposition. He understood the Attorney-General for Ireland to say that he had consulted his English colleagues, and that both were of opinion that these changes in the law were desirable. It certainly did seem strange that the power of committal for contempt should be so much larger than any other power of the judge, but if the Resolution was to be understood as implying censure on any of the judges he should vote against it. He understood that view was repudiated by the Attorney-General, therefore they were inclined to regard the Resolution on its merits.

said he should not have risen but for the almost insulting language applied to the Unionist Members by the Member for North Tyrone.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER with held his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

said the hon. Member for North Tyrone only secured his seats in the House by a majority of six.

said that all he wanted was to emphasise that the law in Ireland was absolutely the same on this point as the law in England and Scotland The hon. Member for North Derry had said he found the law in Ireland administered as justly as in Scotland. As another Scotchman who had the honour to represent a constituency in Ireland by the largest majority of any county constituency in the north of Ireland, he could say that his experience of justice in Ireland had been the same as that of his hon. friend the Member for North Derry, and it was because the whole of this debate had been tinged, either consciously or unconsciously, by a deliberate attack upon the judges in Ireland, that some of them had taken the stand they had to-night and had resisted the attack made intentionally or unintentionally—and he was afraid in many cases intentionally judging by some of the speeches that had been delivered. It was a very sad thing that the Attorney-General for Ireland lad chosen by deliberately ambiguous phrases to join in the attack made upon the judges in Ireland.

* : I beg to repudiate hat most emphatically. I made no attack on any judge in Ireland.

said the hon. and learned Gentleman at all events used language so ambiguous as to draw from the Leader of the Opposition a desire for some explanation.

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

said it was because they felt that all through this debate there had been a deliberate and conscious attempt to throw discredit upon the judges of Ireland—although not, he admitted, shared by all who took part in the debate—that some of them had felt it their duty to repudiate those charges.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question proposed, "That the Question be now put."

Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.

Original Question put accordingly, and agreed to.

Resolved, That the jurisdiction of judges in dealing with contempt of court is practically arbitrary and unlimited, and calls for the action of Parliament with a view to its definition and limitation.

Education (United Kingdom)

Address for "Return for the year 1904–5, relating to the Education in the United Kingdom, in the following form:—

PRIMARY EDUCATION.

England and Wales.

Scotland.

Ireland.

1.

Total number of public elementary schools receiving grants from the Imperial Exchequer

2.

Total number of pupils on rolls

3.

Total number of pupils in average attendance

4.

Number of principal teachers

Men

Women

5.

(a)Number of assistant certificated teachers

Men

Women

(b)Number of assistant uncertificated teachers

Men

Women

(c) Number of supplementary teachers

Men

Women

(d)Number of pupil teachers

Men

Women

6.

Average number of pupils in average attendance per principal teacher

Men

Women

7.

Average salary of principal teacher

Men

Women

8.

Average salary for assistant certificated teachers

Men

Women

9.

Total grants from Imperial Exchequer

SECONDARY EDUCATION.

England and Wales.

Scotland.

Ireland.

1.

Total number of schools receiving State grants

…

2.

Total number of registered pupils

…

3.

Number of pupils in proportion to population

…

4.

Total grants from Imperial Exchequer

…

TECHNICAL EDUCATION.

England and Wales.

Scotland.

Ireland.

1.

Total number of schools and classes receiving State aid

2.

Total number of registered pupils

3.

Total grants from Imperial Exchequer

UNIVERSITY EDUCATION.

England and Wales.

Scotland.

Ireland.

1.

Total number of universities

…

…

…

2.

Total number of professors

…

…

…

3.

Total number of matriculated students

…

…

…

4.

Total grants from Imperial Exchequer

…

…

…

SUMMARY.

England and Wales.

Scotland.

Ireland.

1.

Total grants from Imperial Exchequer for Primary, Secondary, Technical, and University education

2.

Proportion of (1) to total population

3.

Total sum raised from local rates for educational purposes

4.

Proportion of (3) to total population

5.

Total sum received from the local taxation account

6.

Proportion of (5) to total population

7.

Total cost to the Imperial Exchequer of central administration for Primary, Secondary, and Technical Education

8.

Proportion of (7) to (1)

9.

Total sum expended by local authorities on local administration of Primary, Secondary, and Technical Education

—( Mr. Thomas O'Donnell. )

Adjourned at six minutes after Twelve o'clock.