Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 155: debated on Monday 9 April 1906

House of Commons

Monday, April 9, 1906

The House met at Two of the Clock.

Private Bill Business

Private Bills [Lords] (Standing Orders Not Previously Inquired into Complied With)

laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—North Sussex Gas and Water Bill [Lords]; Accrington District Gas and Water Board Bill [Lords]; Holyhead Water Bill [Lords]; Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Superannuation Fund) Bill [Lords]; Mersey Railway Bill [Lords]; Wolstanton United Urban District Council Gas Bill [Lords]; H. R. Baines and Company Bill [Lords]; Mir-field Gas Bill [Lords]; Norwich Union Life Insurance Society Bill [Lords]; Great Central and Lancashire, Derbyshire, and East Coast Railways Bill [Lords]; Manchester and Milford Railway Bill [Lords]; Wirral Railway (Extension of Time) Bill [Lords]; Bridgewater Canals Bill [Lords].

Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.

Carlisle Corporation Bill. Read the third time, and passed.

Wallis' Divorce Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

North East Lincolnshire Water Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Antofagasta (Chili) and Bolivia Railway Bill [Lords]; Bethnal Green Borough Council (Superannuation) Bill [Lords]; Hull Joint Dock Bill [Lords]; Vauclain's Patent Bill [Lords]. Read a second time, and committed.

Standing Orders

Standing Order 207 was read and amended, in line 5, by leaving out the words "to be taken at the beginning of an Evening Sitting," and inserting the words "by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means," instead thereof.—( The Chairman of Ways and Means. )

Kidderminster Gas Bill [Lords]. Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Crystal Palace Company Bill [Lords]. Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Bill to be read the third time.

Petitions

Diseases of Animals Act (1896) Amendment Bill

Petitions in favour; from Blackburn; Kingston - upon - Hull; Perth; Perthshire; Rotherham; and Wrexham; to lie upon the Table.

Land Values (Assessment and Rating) Bill

Petition from Stoke-upon-Trent, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

Local Authorities (Qualifica- Tion of Women) Bill

Petitions in favour; from Cardiff: Clapham; Hammersmith; Maldon and National British Women's Temperance Association; to lie upon the Table.

Public Elementary Schools (Re- Ligious Teaching)

Petitions against alteration of law; from Alverthorpe; Alvington; An-bourne; Appleby; Ashburton; Ashton-on-Ribble; Barnstaple (two); Barrow (two); Barrowford (three); Batley; Beckenham (six); Birkenhead (four); Blackburn (two); Blackrod (two); Boston; Bramshaw; Bromley (four); Bromley Common (two); Burnley (two); Burnley St. Andrew's (two); Burnsall; Bury (two); Bury St. Stephen's (two); 'Canterbury (nine); Chatham; Chelsea; Chelsfield; Chevening (two); Chipping Sodbury (two) Cockermouth (two); Codnor; Colva; Conisholme; Consett (two); Cran-brook (two); Cranham; Dallington; Davidstowe; Deane (two); Denton; Derby; Dodworth; Durham; East and West Barkwith (two); East Wood-hay; Eastoft; Eckington (two); Eden-field; Epworth; Eyam; Farnborough (two); Farnworth; Fawley; Freckenham; Freston; Fritwell (two); Gillingham (two); Great Warley; Griffiths-town (two); Harrowden Magna cum Harrowden Parva (two); Hayes; Hessett (two); Hill (two); Hopton (two); Horsmonden; Ide Hill; Ipswich (two); Isham; Kingsthorpe (two); Knock-holt (two); Langton by Wragby; Lan-teglos by Camelford; Lanteglos and St. Adwen; Leckhampton; Leesfield; Littleham cum Exmouth; Llanfynydd (two); Llanwenarth Ultra; Lyndhurst(two); Manchester (twenty-one); Marchwood; Medowsley; Melton; Midhurst; Milford-on-Sea (two); Min-stead (two); Monmouth (three); Musbury and Ewood Bridge; Neatishead; Nelson (two); Newchurch (two); Northampton (three); North Cockerington; Olveston and Elberton; Openshaw; Orford (two); Orton Longueville; Otterton; Padiham; Pauntley (two); Pemberton; Pendlebury St. John's (two); Plaistow; Preston; Preston near Ledbury (two); Raven stone (two); Rawtenstall (two); Rodington; Roehampton (two); Rhulen; Rushford; St. Enoder; St. Mabyn; St. Mary's in the Marsh; Salcott; Samlesbury (two); Sebargham; Seven-oaks (two); Sotby (two); South Somercotes; Stalybridge (three); Stamford; Stock and Buttsbury; Stratton; Sudbourne (two); Swansea; Swinton; Tynemouth; Underriver (four); Wakefield; Warmfield (three); Weeke (two); Wellingborough; Westborough cum Dry Doddington; Westbury (two); Westgate; Westleigh St. Peter's (two); Wensley Fold; Whelnetham; Wilmington; Winmarlcigh; Woolsthorpe; and Wyke (four); to lie upon the Table.

Tuberculosis (Animals) Preven Tion and Compensation Bill

Petition from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, against; to lie upon the Table.

Returns, Reports, Etc

National Schools (Ireland)

Return [presented 28th March] to be printed. [No. 115.]

Mines and Quarries

Copy presented, of General Report and Statistics for the year 1904, Part IV., Colonial and Foreign Statistics; Statistics relating to Persons employed, Output, and Accidents at Mines and Quarries in the British Colonies and in Foreign Countries [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Mines and Quarries

Copy presented, of Reports of His Majesty's Inspectors of Mines for the year 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Prisons (England and Wales) (Treatment of Selected Male Criminal Prisoners)

Copy presented, of Draft of Rules proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Prisons Acts, 1877 and 1898, appropriating Borstal Prison and part of Lincoln Prison to Selected Male Criminal Prisoners, and providing as to the Treatment of Selected Male Criminal Prisoners between the ages of 16 and 21 under Special Rules [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Cape of Good Hope Observatory

Copy presented, of Report of the Astronomer to the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty for the year 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

East India (Income and Expenditure)

Return presented, relative thereto [Address 29th March; Sir Henry Fowler ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 116.]

Penny Postage

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 3rd April; Mr. Henniker Heaton ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 117.]

Banking, Railway, and Shipping Statistics (Ireland)

Copy presented, of Report on the Banking, Railway, and Shipping Statistics of Ireland for the year ended 31st December, 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Trade Reports (Annual Series)

Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos.3549 to 3551 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Trade Reports (Miscellaneous Series)

Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Miscellaneous Series, Nos. 646 and 647 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Post Office (Money Orders)

Copy presented, of Postal Agreement for an Exchange of Money Orders between the Post Office of Great Britain and Ireland and the Royal Imperial Austrian Postal Administration, dated the 28th October/10th November, 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Paper Laid Upon the Table by the Clerk of the House

Public Records (Prison Commission.) Copy of Schedule containing a List and Particulars of Classes of Documents existing or accruing in the Office of the Commissioners of Prisons and Directors of Convict Prisons which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation in the Public Record Office [by Act].

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions and Answers Circulated With the Votes

Expenses of Seamen Invalided Home

To ask the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the case of Patrick Crawley, a seaman, who was discharged from the s.s. "Thyra" on 3rd August, 1903, at Pedang; whether he is aware that at the time of Crawley's discharge from the ship there was due to him as wages the sum of £23 6s. 6d.; that on the arrival of Crawley in the United Kingdom the whole of his wages had been used for the purpose of his conveyance home, and for other expenses, and that the Board of Trade accounted that he was in debt to them to the amount of £3 5s. 10d., although they had appropriated the whole of his wages; and whether he will state the disease from which Crawley was suffering.

( Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George. ) My attention has been called to the case referred to by my hon. friend, and the facts are practically in accordance with his statement. The seaman was suffering from malaria, which the Board of Trade are advised does not constitute hurt or injury in the service of the ship, and the wages therefore appear to have been properly applied towards the payment of the expenses. The excess of £3 5s. 10d. is not a debt due from Crawley, but has been paid by the owners of the "Thyra." I am considering whether it is possible to amend the law so as to minimise the hardship to the seamen in such cases.

Dangers of Taking Diachylon

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the circumstances connected with two recent inquests at Sheffield have been brought to his notice; whether he is aware that the taking of diachylon, a powerful and poisonous drug, which resulted in the deaths mentioned above, is an increasing practice among many women, who through ignorance of the properties of the drug are doing their health serious injury; and whether he can see his way to have this drug and its preparations scheduled as a poison.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone. ) Several representations on the subject of the taking of diachylon have been received, and my notice has been called to one of the recent cases at Sheffield. I am informed, however, that the Lord President of the Council, who is in charge of the Poisons and Pharmacy Bill now before the House of Lords, is advised that to schedule diachylon as a poison would not mitigate the evil which is complained of.

Expenditure under Marine Works (Ireland) Act

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can give details of expenditure under the Marine Works (Ireland) Act to date, showing which works have now been completed and which are in progress; what other works have been agreed upon between the Irish Government and the county councils concerned; and what is the unexpended balance of the grant at the present time.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The following table shows the expenditure incurred up to 31st March, 1906—

Name of Works.

Amount of Expenditure.

Completed or in Progress.

£

s.

d.

Cape Clear, county Cork

3,210

2

5

In progress.

Liscannor, county Clare

5,816

7

8

In progress

Roundstone, county Galway

1,949

4

0

Completed.

Kilronan

1,684

0

5

In progress.

Cleggan

2,112

7

1

In progress

Kinvarra

1,094

1

5

In progress

Gortnasate, county Donegal

2,114

3

1

In progress

Downies Bay

2,064

3

10

In progress

Portnoo

1,328

11

10

In progress

Cladnageragh

1,030

0

1

Completed.

Maintenance Fund

1

10

0

General Charges

124

17

2

22,529

9

0

No other works have yet been agreed upon between the Irish Government and the county councils, because no other schemes have arrived at the stage at which reference to county councils becomes requisite. The unexpended balance of the grant of £100,000 under the Marine Works Act amounts to £77,470 11s., but this balance includes not only the sums necessary to complete the works already in progress, but also a large sum which was provisionally set aside for expenditure upon a harbour at Innishlyre, county Mayo the negotiations as to which have been suspended.

Wei-hai Wei—Unexpended Balance

To ask the Secretary of State for War if any money already voted by Parliament for military purposes at Wei-hai-Wei still remains unexpended; and to what purposes this money will be allotted, in view of the proposal to disband the Chinese troops.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) Parliament has voted the pay, etc., of the Chinese Regiment for the year 1906–7, Some of this money will be used to defray the expenses of disbanding the regiment. The balance will, I hope, be saved.

Army Policy

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, with a view to securing continuity of Army policy, and in order to remove misconceptions arising from the diverse interpretation of terms used in connection with Imperial defence and with the territorial organisation of the Army, he will consider the advisability of following the precedent set in 1893 by the present Prime Minister when Secretary of State for War, and authorise the publication by the department of the General Staff of a handbook in popular form, setting forth the objects and the course pursued by the military policy of the nation from the year 1870 to the present time, with special reference to the period from 1893 to 1906.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) The Army Book of the British Empire, to which my hon. and gallant friend presumably alludes, is in course of revision, but it is not likely to be ready for publication for some months.

Soldiers and Police and the Gaelic Athletic Association

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to a meeting of the athletic council of the Gaelic Athletic Association held at Cork, where the chairman justified the action of the executive council of the association in refusing to allow members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and His Majesty's soldiers and sailors to take part in athletic sports under their auspices; and whether he intends to take any action in the matter.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) I am not aware of the matter alluded to in the Question. I do not propose to take any action.

Crime in the 16th Lancers

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Command, has yet furnished the report of his inquiry as to the cause of the amount of punishment in the 16th Lancers during the twelve months ending 28th February last; if so, will he inform the House as to the general nature of that report; and, in view of the condition of this regiment, will he consider the advisability of appointing an officer from some other regiment to the command of the 16th Lancers.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) The report in question has been received, and is under consideration. As I have already informed my hon. friend, the report is confidential.

Army Meat Contracts

To ask the Secretary of State for War by whose authority contractors for the supply of frozen mutton to the Army were prohibited from offering foreign as well as colonial mutton; on what grounds that prohibition was made; and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to maintain that prohibition.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) The decision to confine the supplies of frozen mutton to the Colonies was made by the War Office in 1902 on the authority of the Financial Secretary. The foreign frozen mutton, which comes from Argentina, while cheaper than New Zealand, was dearer than Australian mutton, and was considered not always satisfactory in quality. It was accordingly decided to give the preference to the colonial supplies. I am of opinion that quality and price should alone be considered on these contracts.

Suggested Weekly Payment of Army Pensions

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the number of ex-soldiers who seek poor relief, he will consider the desirability of Array pensions being paid weekly instead of, as now, monthly or quarterly.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) This matter is now receiving my most careful consideration.

The Natal Garrison

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether there are any other British troops now in Natal in addition to the remnant of the Royal Garrison Artillery; what is the composition of this additional force, if any; what is the estimated cost per diem of this force, including due allowance for the cost of housing, training, and pensioning; and how much of that daily cost is to be contributed by the Colony of Natal.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane ) The 2nd battalion Cameron Highlanders has been moved temporarily into Natal. There are also the necessary departmental details. The daily cost is estimated at £245. The colony will pay all extra expenditure resulting from the move; but the normal cost of maintaining the force remains chargeable to Army funds.

Canadian Import Duty on Malt Flour

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the Canadian import duty on malt flour has been raised since January 1st, 1904, to an amount which is nearly four times the amount of the duty previous to that date, while the duty on other malt extracts remains at the amount fixed previous to January, 1904, and that both classes of malt extracts are imported for the same purpose, for use by bakers; whether the Colonial Office has received any communication on the subject from the Board of Trade; and whether he contemplates making any representation on the subject to the Canadian Government.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) The late Secretary of State received representations on this subject through the Board of Trade, and these were communicated by him to the Canadian Government last October; and the Governor-General has reported that the matter was referred to the Commissioners who were inquiring I into the working of the Canadian Customs Tariff.

Land Reserved for Natives in Natal

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the area of land reserved for the natives in Natal and under the administration of the Natal Native Trust; whether the Natal Native Trust is responsible to the Natal Government or to the Colonial Office; and whether the regulations under which the natives are permitted to occupy these reserved lands are in any way subject to the approval of the Home Government.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) The area of reserved land referred to is stated to consist of forty-two locations, comprising approximately 2,198,568 acres. The Natal Native Trust is a Corporation constituted by the Letters Patent of the 27th April, which gives to one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State power to disallow and cancel any rule, order, or resolution made by the corporation in virtue of the powers conferred on them by the Letters Patent, i.e., powers to take and hold, grant, sell, lease, or otherwise dispose of land for the advantage and well-being of the natives. The regulations under which natives are permitted to occupy such lands do not come within the scope of the Letters Patent, but are provided for by legislation of the Natal Parliament.

Report of Inter-Colonial Customs Conference at Pietermaritzburg

To ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received a report of the decisions of the Inter-colonial Customs Conference at Pietermaritzburg; and whether he will cause them to be published as soon as possible.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) There has not yet been time to receive the decisions of the Conference by mail, and it will be necessary to consult the South African Governments after their receipt as to publication.

Martial Law in Natal

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies by what legal authority martial law has been proclaimed in Natal; how long it will be continued; who is responsible for its continuance; and whether the ordinary courts of Natal are sitting.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) Martial law has been proclaimed in Natal by the Governor on the advice of his Ministers. I would also refer the hon. Member to my Answer to the hon. Member for North Lambeth,† given in the House to-day. It is not possible to say, at present, how long it will be continued. The Government of Natal are responsible for its continuance. The ordinary courts of the Colony are sitting.

Labourers in Portuguese, East Africa

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what proportion of the labourers from Portuguese East Africa who are employed in the Transvaal mines come from within the tropics; what is the rate of mortality per thousand of such labourers; and whether it is proposed to put a stop to their recruitment; if so, when will the prohibition come in force.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) The Return received for January shows that, out of 67,989 natives from Portuguese East Africa, 2,116 came from Mozambique, and 822 from Quilimane. The rate of mortality among the labourers from tropical areas was 118·9 per 1,000 for the first ten months of 1905, according to Lord Selborsne's telegram published at page 44 of Cd. 2819, which also shows that recruiting ceased on 31st January, and will not be resumed unless the mortality Returns for the year ending 30th June, 1906, show marked improvement.

Irish Land Act—Expenses Incurred through Treasury Intervention

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the number of cases in which the Treasury have incurred costs or expenses by intervening under the Irish Land Act of 1903 from its enactment to the end of March, 1906; the number of these cases in which the decisions have been adverse to the contention of the Treasury; the gross amount of costs and expenses incurred by the Treasury in theses latter cases; the share of this amount due to intervention initiated under the late Government; the share due to intervention initiated under the present Government; and in what Votes on the Estimates are such costs and expenses included.

( Answered by Mr. McKenna. ) Total number of cases in which Treasury have incurred costs or expenses up to the 31st March, 1906, 20. Number of these cases in which decisions have been adverse to the contention of the Treasury, 6. Gross amount of costs and expenses incurred by the Treasury in these latter cases, £217 9s. Share of this amount due to intervention initiated under the late Government, all. To what Vote on Estimate are such costs and expenses included. Law Charge Vote (Ireland).

Publication of the MSS. of the Chartulary of St. Thomas's Abbey, Dublin

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the MS. of the Chartulary of St. Thomas's Abbey, Dublin, by the late Mr. John Gilbert, is actually completed and ready for Press; and if he will agree to its being published by the Record Commission in the Master of the Rolls series, in view of the great value and historic interest of the chartulary and in view also of the fact that its publication will complete the series already commenced by the publication of the Chartulary of St. Mary's Abbey, Dublin.

( Answered by Mr. McKenna. ) I am not sure that I quite understand the hon. Baronet's Question. The Register of the Abbey of St. Thomas the Martyr, Dublin, edited by the late Sir John Gilbert, was published in 1889 in the "Chronicles and Memorials of Great Britain" Series (the Rolls Series.") The Record Commission has been extinct for more than half a century.

Tenure of Office of the Judge Advocate-General

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Lords of the Treasury have given their sanction by any warrant, order, or other document to the proposition that Mr. Milvain has a right of continuing in office as Judge Advocate-General until he attains the age of seventy, or for any other fixed period.

( Answered by Mr. McKenna. ) The War Office was informed in August last that no objection would be offered by the Board of Treasury to the retention of Mr. Milvain in the office of Judge Advocate-General until he should attain the age of seventy.

Board of Education and St. Mary's Catholic School, Bolton

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that St. Mary's Catholic school, Bolton, was built subject to the provisions of the Act of 1902, whereby the maintenance and furnishing was to be met by the local education authority; can he state why the declared policy of the Board should be reversed whilst a school is being built; and whether, in view of the sum spent in the building of this new school, he will arrange that the provisions of the Act of 1902 as regards furnishing shall be strictly adhered to.

( Answered by Mr. Birrell. ) I am aware that the erection of the St. Mary's Catholic school, Bolton, was sanctioned at a time when the provisions of the Act were understood to throw upon the local authority, in all cases, the duty of providing the furniture for a new voluntary school. The Board have, however, recently been advised that, under a correct construction of the terms of the Act, no such obligation rests upon the local authority, and that the authority can properly decline to maintain a new voluntary school unless and until it is provided with the requisite furniture, etc., for the purposes of a public elementary school. I am, however, of opinion that, in cases where the provision of the school was settled at a time when the reverse view was held, it would be a fair arrangement if the local authority were to arrange that the cost of providing the furniture etc., should not, contrary to expectation, fall upon the managers. But whether this can be avoided, where an authority is willing to bear the expense as it has expected to have to do, raises difficult legal questions which are being carefully considered.

Report of the Mansfield Commission

To ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state briefly what recommendations contained in the Report of the Mansfield Commission he proposed to apply to the Island of Lewis and the Western Highlands.

( Answered by Mr. Sinclair. ) The present arrangements, which are based on the Report, are experimental, and it is not intended to add to them at present.

Condition of Third-class Carriages on the Loughrea and Attymon Railway

To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the use in passenger trains on the Loughrea and Attymon Railway, county Galway, of third-class carriages so rough and coarse as to be obviously out of date, and whether, seeing that the residents living alongside the line and the ratepayers are subject to a baronial guarantee for the payment to the shareholders of 5 per cent., he can exercise any power to induce the directors to improve the carriages with a view to the comfort of the travelling public.

( Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George. ) My attention had not previously been called to this matter; but I have forwarded a copy of the hon. Member's Question to the Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland Company, who inform me that they work the line referred to with precisely the same class of rolling stock as that in use all over their system. The company add that their third-class carriages have been improved since the date when the line was opened and the baronial guarantee to the Loughrea and Attymon Company came into force.

Sale of Warships at Chatham

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state with reference to the eleven warships reported to have been sold at Chatham on 3rd April last, the original cost of each ship and when it was launched; when it was last repaired, and how much has been spent in repairs in each case, and the price for which each ship was sold.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The information asked for is as follows:

Name of vessel.

First cost.

When launched.

Last substantial repair.

Amount realised by sale.

Date.

Amount.

£

£

£

Cockatrice

51,006

1886

1,708 (b)

3,800

Drake

22,991

1875

1893–4

911

1,400

Hyæna

11,032

1873

1899–00

3,984

850

to 1900–01

Melampus

32,109

1820

16 (b)

1,650

Mercury

No record

1826

96 (b)

1,375

Mildura

117,466

1889

1903–4

9,267

7,200

Pylades

102,490

1884

1898–9

15,336

5,900

Seamew

9,900

(a)

553 (b)

1,300

Sheerness

8,745

1859

446 (b)

1,150

Tartar

88,912

1886

1902–to1903–4

19,564

5,450

Torpedo Boat No. 4

8,584

1879

170 (b)

205

Wye

21,500

1873

2,195 (b)

2,800

Undine

11,653

1884

877 (b)

1,500

(a) Transferred from Inland Revenue Department in 1857.

(b) Average annual expenditure for repairs, the vessel not having undergone a large relit.

Vivisection

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any announcement to make as to the nature of an inquiry into the subject of vivisection, and as to the date on which it may be expected.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone. ) I am not yet in a position to make any announcement as to the nature and date of inquiry, but I hope to be able to do so soon after the Easter recess.

Workmen's Compensation—Application to Municipal Employees—Trained Asylum Nurses

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Workmen's Compensation Bill will apply to municipal employees, and whether including male and female trained nurses in the asylums for mental diseases.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone. ) The Answer is in the affirmative.

Reports on Piecework Trades

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he includes among inquiries now proceeding as to the extension of particulars to certain piecework trades some, such as brush-making, India-rubber balloon-making, and net-making, which were mentioned in His Majesty's Chief Inspector's Report for 1902 as already or about to be specially reported on with a view to their inclusion in the protection of the particulars sections; and whether, these Reports having been submitted four years ago, he can see his way to extending the particulars sections to these industries at once.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone. ) No further Reports have been submitted with reference to these three industries, beyond a reference to net-making in the Principal Lady Inspector's Report for 1903. Brush-making is now the subject of an inquiry, and I will call for Reports also with regard to the other two.

Lymph used by Public Vaccinators

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the lymph which has been or is now being issued by the vaccination authorities is entirely innocent of any culture by small-pox.

( Answered by Mr. John Burns. ) The lymph used by public vaccinators is, I believe, almost entirely that which is issued gratuitously by the National Vaccine Establishment, and with respect to this I may refer to the Answer I gave to my hon. friend on March 23rd. †I cannot speak positively as to the source of any lymph used by a public vaccinator which he has obtained elsewhere, but The Vaccination Act, 1898. requires that it shall be glycerinated lymph derived from the calf.

Erection of a Small-pox Hospital at Bournemouth

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the proposal of the Bournemouth Corporation to erect a small-pox hospital at Ferndown, in the county of Dorset; whether he is aware that the site for the hospital is closely adjacent to a number of small residential properties, and that the close proximity of the proposed hospital will ruin the neighbourhood as building land, to which it is admirably suited; whether, seeing that there is a quantity of vacant heath-land available in the county of Hampshire, to which Bournemouth belongs, he will say whether there is any precedent for an urban authority building such a hospital in a neighbouring county, in the teeth of the protests both of the inhabitants of the district affected and the local authorities of the county concerned; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter.

( Answered by Mr. John Burns. ) I am aware that the corporation have purchased some twenty-four acres of land at Ferndown, for the erection of a building for the reception of small-pox cases, should any occur in the borough. I understand that the building will only consist of a pavilion of a temporary character, capable of accommodating about eight patients, and that it will be from 300 to 350 yards distant from the nearest dwelling-house, and about half a mile from the village of Ferndown. The land, which is freehold, has been purchased for £750, and it is suggested that this fact indicates that there is not much demand for land for building or any other purpose in the neighbourhood. There are, I believe, precedents for the town council of a county borough building a hospital in the adjoining county, notwithstanding opposition of the kind referred to. I have ascertained that the Corporation of Bournemouth do not propose to defray the cost of the site or of the building by means of borrowed money, and, in these circumstances, I have no authority to interfere in the matter.

Lord De Ramsay and his Tenants

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the statement that Lord de Ramsey has given notice to 1,000 allotment and small holders of land in the county of Huntingdon to quit their occupations in October; and whether he will cause inquiries to be made, and also put himself in communication with the local authorities with a view to their providing allotments for this large body of agricultural labourers.

( Answered by Mr. John Burns. ) I have not at present received any representation on this subject. I think the best course will be for the present holders of the allotments to place themselves at once in communication with the local authorities. If any action on my part is necessary, and application is made to me on the subject, I will give the matter immediate consideration.

Revision of the County of Dublin Ordnance Survey Maps

To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the revision of Ordnance Survey maps of the county of Dublin will not in I future include, at the public cost, the revision of any plans on a scale larger than that of 25·344 inches to the mile, unless part of the cost is borne by the ratepayers; whether he is aware that Ordnance Survey maps of I the city of London are drawn to a scale of ten feet to the mile, at the public expense; and whether, under these circumstances, he will take steps to insure the revision of the 1·1056 scales of the county of Dublin, at the public cost, as has hitherto been the practice.

( Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) It was decided by the Treasury in 1894 that the revision of Ordnance Survey plans on a larger scale than twenty-five inches to the mile should not in future be undertaken unless the local authority agree to pay the extra cost involved. This rule has been uniformly enforced since that year, and I regret that it is not in the power of the board to make any exception in favour of the county of Dublin. The revision of the large scale plans of the city of London was carried out before 1894.

Imperial Finance

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what were the aggregate gross liabilities of the State on 31st March last.

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total sum estimated to be raised by loan in the current financial year for civil, military, and naval works.

( Answered by Mr. Asquith. ) I would ask my hon. friend to wait until my Budget statement for these figures, as I think their publication before that date is attended with some inconvenience.

Director of Public Instruction in Bengal

To ask the Secretary of State for India. whether he is aware that two independent unofficial bodies, viz., the heads of sixteen Calcutta colleges, and the Anglo-Indian Defence Association, memorialised the Lieutenant Governor of Bengal last autumn against the proposed appointment of a member of the Indian Civil Service as the next Director of Public Instruction in Bengal, and will he say whether any answer had been vouchsafed to their representations; is he aware that the members of the Indian Educational Service in Bengal had individually memorialised the Viceroy and Governor-General of India in August and September, 1905, on the same subject, and will he say whether they had received any reply; and, if so, at what date, or, if not, will he explain why; and whether, seeing that there is a Government rule in force in India to the effect that no Government servant may memorialise the Secretary of State for India until he has presented his case and received an answer from the Government of India, he will say whether the members of the Educational Service have been effectually debarred by this delay of more than six months from presenting a petition to the Secretary of State against the passing over of all the members of their service in favour of an outsider for an appointment which had hitherto always been held by an education officer.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley. ) I have no information as to the statements in the Question. The hon. Member is no doubt aware that the reasons for the temporary appointment of Mr. I Earle have been fully explained in the replies given to Questions on the subject by my predecessor on the 2nd and 10th August and by myself on the 1st March last,… that the Lieutenant-Governor, in the exercise of his discretion, has acted in what he believes to be the interest I of the public service, and that the arrangements which have been made are not contrary to the practice prevailing in other provinces of India, and are on this occasion deemed essential for the advantage of the Department.

County Councils and the Insurance Clauses of the Marine Works Act

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if it is possible for county councils of counties outside the congested districts to take advantage of the insurance clauses of the Marine Works Act; and, if so, if he will state what procedure has to be followed for the purpose.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) Under Section 11 of The Marine Works Act, 1902, a county council and the Board of Works may agree that any marine work, which is the public property of the county, shall be vested in the Board of Works, and shall be inspected, maintained, and kept in repair by that board out of the general maintenance fund under the Act. The section further provides that the county council shall covenant to pay such annual sum as the Lord-Lieutenant may certify to be properly payable by the council as a county contribution in respect of the work, and it is provided by Section 2 that such contribution shall not be less than 1½per cent. of the total cost of the work. In order to take advantage of these provisions, it would be necessary that a county council should pass a Resolution to the effect that they are desirous of applying the provisions of Section 11 in the case in question; that they are willing to pay the Board of Works such annual sum as the Lord-Lieutenant may certify; that they request the Lord-Lieutenant to fix the sum, and request the Local Government Board to consent to the alienation of the work, and request the Board of Works to take over the work. It would then be for the Board of Works to decide whether it is necessary, in the public interest, that they should enter into an agreement under Section 11, and if they should so decide, a conveyance would be entered into, and other legal steps taken.

Building Grants to Irish Schools

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant ot Ireland whether his attention Has been called to the minutes of the Committee of Council of Education in Scotland, dated the 19th of March, 1906, in which provision is made for a special grant of £1,500 towards the cost of new school buildings, or of the repair and upkeep of existing buildings in the Highlands and Islands; and whether a similar special provision will be made in the case of new schools in the congested districts of Ireland.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) I am informed that the provision referred to in the Question has in fact been made, and the necessity is fully recognised of making provision for the improvement of school buildings in the congested districts in Ireland. The matter is being fully considered. I may remind the hon. Member that £35,000 is this year to be expended out of money provided by Parliament on new school buildings in Ireland, and the poorest districts will of course have a strong claim for the improvement of their school buildings.

Roads (County Kerry) Boat Slip

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the slip at Roads, county Kerry, is rendered practically useless through the partly submerged ledge of rock which prevents the boats reaching the landing-place; and whether the Congested Districts Board will instruct their engineer to have the ledge blasted.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) In the opinion of the Congested Districts Board, it is not the fact that the landing place at Roads is practically useless. The board have made improvements to the landing place, as a result of which large seine boats are now used by the fishermen, instead of the canoes formerly used. It is considered that no reasonable expenditure would make such an exposed landing place completely satisfactory, but the board's engineer will make a further inspection, and report whether anything can be done as regards the ledge of rock mentioned.

Reinstatement of Evicted Tenants—Application of Mrs. Daniel Coffey and Daniel McCarthy

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Estates Commissioners has been called to the claim of Mrs. Daniel Coffey, of Gurtcullinane, Beaufort, for reinstatement in the farm from which her late husband was evicted in 1885, on the J. Mahony estate, Dunloe, county Kerry; and whether, seeing that the negotiations for the sale of the estate have not yet been concluded, they will settle this matter satisfactorily to all parties concerned.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have made inquiries into this case and have ascertained that Daniel and John Coffey, who were brothers, were joint tenants of the holding in question. Both were evicted, and John Coffey subsequently became tenant of the entire holding, which he has now agreed to purchase under the Land Purchase Acts. It appears to the Commissioners that they cannot interfere in the matter, which is really in the nature of a family dispute.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the application for reinstatement has been received by the Estates Commissioners from Daniel M'Carthy, representative of the late Patrick M'Carthy, an evicted tenant on the Trinity College estate at Fustane, Kenmare; and whether, seeing that negotiations for the sale of the estate are now in progress, this application will be duly attended to.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no record of the receipt of an application for reinstatement in the case referred to.

Sale of the O'Donel Estate, County Mayo

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the dates within the last ten years on which the O'Donel estate, situate at Newport, county Mayo, has come before the Court of Chancery for sale; who were the intending purchasers on each occasion; why did not the sale come off; and can he give the name or names of the objectors to the sale on each occasion.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) I am informed by the registrar of the Land Judge's Court that the estate in question has not at any time been publicly offered for sale. The learned Judge has, however, directed that the estate be offered for sale to the Congested Districts Board, and the schedule of tenancies and other necessary matters are in course of settlement.

Gun Licence for Mr. John Murphy of Derrybrick, Castlebar

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can give any reason why Mr. John Murphy, of Derrybrick, Lud-lough, Castlebar, county Mayo, should not be allowed a gun licence for the purpose of protecting his crops from vermin.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The power of issuing a licence under the Peace Preservation Act is vested in the resident magistrate of the district. It would be contrary to practice to state the grounds upon which the magistrate, in the exercise of his discretion, has so far refused to grant a licence.

Compulsion of Tenants to Sign Purchase Agreements on the Fraser Estate, County Cork

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received a memorial from Mrs. Catherine O'Brien, a tenant on the Fraser estate, county Cork, setting forth the means employed by the owner and his agent to induce and compel the tenants to sign purchase agreements, and if a resolution to the same effect, adopted by the Mitchelstown No. 1 District Council, has also reached the Commission; and whether, in view of these allegations, full investigation will be made into all the circumstances before any advances for purchase of this estate are sanctioned.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have received the memorial and resolution mentioned, and will, when dealing with the estate, give due consideration to the allegations made in these documents.

Fair Kent Appeals in Limerick

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can by any means expedite proceedings in the Land Commissioners' Court in Limerick, to have fair rents fixed in the cases of farms as between landlords and tenants by the Sub-Commissioners, and to have appeals heard on similar issues in the High Commissioner's Court, in view of the arrears under both Commissions.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Land Commission inform me that a Sub- Commission Court has been almost continually employed in the county Limerick for some years, and a list containing cases from the union of Limerick and Croom is at present in course of disposal, while another list, containing cases from other parts of the county, is in course of preparation. The Appeal Court sat in Limerick in October last, and will sit there again on the 28th June. In fixing the sittings of the Sub-Commission and the Appeal Courts the Land Commission are obliged to have due regard to the claims of the different districts as well as to the time at the disposal of these courts.

Sale of the Marshall Estate, Doon, County Limerick

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, can he say if he knows anything about the negotiations for sale and purchase as between the landlords, without regard of the nominal owner, Mr. Marshall, and the tenants on the Marshall estate, Toomaline, Doon, county Limerick; and, inasmuch as under duress and pressure of arrears on this rack-rented property the majority of the tenants have consented to purchase, whilst four have declined to purchase between the Toomaline, Kilmoylan, and Moanoola sections of the estate, will the Estates Commissioners declare this estate not to be one for sale under the Land Purchase Act of 1903.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have no knowledge of any negotiation which may be in progress for the sale of this estate.

Sale of Major Newenham's Estate at Toryhill, County Limerick

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, is he aware that negotiations for sale and purchase have been for some time going on between Major Newenham and his tenants on his estate at Toryhill, Croom, county Limerick; and that, owing to the pressure of arrears on this rack-rented property, the majority have consented to purchase on terms on which the minority, who are in a position to resist pressure in purchasing, have refused to become purchasers; and will he recommend the Estates Commissioners to exercise their discretion of declaring the lands in question not to be an estate for sale under the provisions of the Act of 1903.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have directed their inspector to report upon this estate, and when the Report has been received they will consider the matters referred to in the Question.

Jamaica Garrison

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether it has been decided to retain British troops in the Island of Jamaica: what will be the composition and the strength of this force; what will be its estimated annual cost; and by whom will that cost be borne.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) The garrison for which provision is made in Estmates 1906–7 is 1,790 all ranks, of whom about 350 are Europeans. The estimated cost of this force is about £136,000, and it is borne by Army Votes. Some redaction o the non-European troops, West India Regiment, is, however, in contemplation.

Firing on Dartmoor on Bank Holidays

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the convenience to the general public, he would take steps to inquire whether there could be no firing on Dartmoor on Easter Monday and on Whit Monday.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) Instructions have been issued to the commandant of the practice camp at Okehampton that there is to be no firing on either Easter Monday or Whit Monday.

Suggested Weekly Payment of Army Pensions

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the present system of paying Army pensions quarterly or monthly is a direct cause of thriftlessness, and an indirect cause of pauperism among ex-soldiers; and whether he can arrange for such pensions to be paid weekly through the Post Office or in any other manner.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) The whole question of the mode of payment of Army pensions is now receiving my most careful consideration; but I am not at present in a position to make any statement.

Report of Committee on Employment of ex-Soldiers and ex-Sailors

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will lay the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Employment of ex-Soldiers and ex-Sailors, together with the evidence, upon the Table of the House.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) It is not usual to lay Departmental Reports, and, as this Report has not yet been made, I am not at present in a position to give a reply to the Question.

Scottish Statute Law Revision

To ask the First Lord of the Treasury, in the event of the Statute Law Revision (Scotland) Bill being read a second time, what course the Government will take with reference to the commitment of the measure.

( Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Banner-man. ) I refer my hon. friend to my Answer given to-day to my hon. friend the Member for Aberdeen.†The Statute Law Revision Bill seems to me just such a measure as might well be remitted to a Scottish Grand Committee.

The Hague Peace Conference

To ask the I First Lord of the Treasury whether any date is fixed for the meeting of the Second International Peace Conference at The Hague; and if he can tell the House the names of the British delegates.

( Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Banner-man. ) The second half of July has been proposed by the Russian Government for the meeting of the Second Peace Conference at The Hague. The appointments of the British delegates are not yet settled, but the matter is under consideration.

To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, among the subjects to be submitted to the next Hague Conference, he can give an assurance that an international arrest of armaments will be included; if not, will His Majesty's Government propose the inclusion of that subject; and will the House be given an early opportunity of discussing the whole matter.

( Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Banner-man. ) I cannot say whether it would be practicable to make specific proposals with regard to a limitation of armaments, but the matter is one which His Majesty's Government regard with most sympathetic interest.

Questions in the House

The Repatriation of the Chinese Coolies

On behalf of the hon. Member for Down, West, I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if the offer of His Majesty's Government to repatriate the Chinese coolies employed in the Transvaal Colony, under the Chinese Labour Ordinance, at the expense of the Imperial Exchequer, has been communicated to the coolies; if so, when was the communication made; and if the Colonial Office has received any; and, if so, how many acceptances from the coolies of the offer of His Majesty's Government to secure their free passages to their homes in China.

I have as yet nothing to add to the Answer given to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs on Monday last,† the full text of which has been published. Lord Selborne has not yet completed the drafting of the actual regulations which are to give effect to his proposals. We are expecting to receive these from him from day to day, and the Secretary of State is satisfied that no time will be lost in settling this complicated matter in strict accordance with the pledges given to Parliament.

Martial Law

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether martial law can be proclaimed in a Colony where a state of war does not exist, and without the consent of the Home Government; and, if a state of war does exist, is it in accordance with the regulations laid down by the Geneva Convention to shoot prisoners taken in such war.

The reply to the first part of the hon. Member's Question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I presume that the hon. Member refers not to the Geneva Convention, which deals with the treatment of wounded, but to the Hague Convention on the Laws and

…See (4) Debates, clv., 162, 163.

Customs of War by Land. This Convention is not binding when a non contracting Power is one of the belligerents. But, in any case, I am not aware that anything has been done by the Natal forces inconsistent with that and other Conventions of like nature. I would refer the hon. Member to page 28 of Cd. 1423, where the following words occur:— "Martial Law is called into being by a proclamation issued by the Governor, acting under the advice of his Ministers. It is an announcement to the public that the provisions of the civil law are inadequate to deal with the situation which has arisen, and an intimation to the military authorities that the Government is willing that exceptional measures should; be taken by those authorities to meet I circumstances with which the ordinary law is unable sufficiently to cope, and to enable persons resisting the authority of the Government, or aiding or abetting the enemy, to be arrested summarily and punished promptly. In proclaiming martial law the Government, in fact, declares itself obliged, for the protection of the community, temporarily to neglect the law, trusting to the Legislature to relieve from their liability for the consequences all those who, in obedience to the constituted authority, may have acted unlawfully in defence of the public safety." The hon. Member will perceive that neither a state of war, nor the consent of the Home Government is required for the proclamation of martial law.

Is it not the rule to suspend the civil Courts during the time martial law is in existence?

said the civil Courts were only suspended during the existence of martial law in so far as the Government might consider it necessary in order to apply the provisions of martial law. As a matter of fact, the civil Courts were working at this moment.

Ceylon Pearl Fisheries

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any sort of publicity or advertisement to capitalists was given of the intention to lease the Ceylon Government pearl fisheries; what are the names and standing of the syndicate who negotiated with Mr. Lyttelton for the lease for twenty years; and whether it was in accordance with the practice of the Colonial Office to grant a concession of this kind without inviting tenders or competition among capitalists in the United Kingdom, India, or Ceylon.

At the same time, may I ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies what are the names of the persons composing the syndicate to which the Ceylon pearl fisheries have been leased for twenty years, and with whom the negotiations were conducted at the Colonial Office; and why the lease was entered into without notice to other capitalists who might, in open competition, have offered the Government more favourable terms.

* : The following are some of the principal members of the syndicate: —The Exploration (Rothschilds) Company, Messrs. Neuman and Co., Sir West Ridgeway, Messrs. Friedlander, Messrs. Derenburg and Co., Lord Justice Fletcher Moulton, Lord Arthur Butler, Sir J. Bonser, Sir Stanley Blois. The full list can be seen at Somerset House. The negotiations were conducted with Messrs. Derenburg. The intention to lease the pearl fisheries was not advertised, and presumably the late Government, by whom this arrangement was contracted, did not consider that the contract was a suitable one for throwing open to public tender. With regard to the last part of the hon. Member's Question, the Secretary of State desires me to say that concessions involving the consideration of many intricate details, and in regard to which the financial standing and resources of the concessionnaires are of the utmost importance, are not always to be regarded as transactions which can advantageously be dealt with by advertisement and competition.

* presumed that the arguments were carefully considered by Mr. Lyttelton and his advisers at the time, and they decided that the offer which was made to them by those particular firms was one which ought to be accepted on its merits, and not exposed to the competition of other offers. He would communicate with the Secretary of State as to the possibility of laying, Papers on the Table.

Indian Army Reorganisation

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any orders have been issued in India with a view to carrying into effect the scheme of reorganisation of the War Department, as sketched in the minute by Lord Kitchener, dated January 1st, 1905; and whether he will communicate all such orders to the House, and when such communication may be expected.

The scheme sketched by Lord Kitchener in his Minute of January 1st, 1905, has not been adopted. The reforms in military administration which have been actually sanctioned will be found in the Papers already issued to Parliament. The orders therein contained are now being acted on in India.

Income-Tax

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now state what steps the Government propose to take with reference to the inquiry into the question of the graduation and. differentiation of the income-tax.

I shall make an announcement on the subject of the proposed inquiry in my financial statement.

I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is his intention to introduce legislation to give effect to the recommendation of the Departmental Committee on Income-Tax [Cd. 2575] that the grant of exemption or abatement by reason of smallness of income should be abolished in the case of persons resident outside the United Kingdom.

I do not propose to take any steps upon the Committee's Report until the further inquiry into questions connected with the income-tax which has been promised has taken place.

I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the inconvenience caused to friendly societies by the deduction of income-tax when such bodies are drawing interest upon investments; and, as registered friendly societies are exempt from income-tax, can he arrange so as to obviate the necessity for such deductions being made and the process involved in recovering the same.

I fear it would not be possible to make any such arrangement as is suggested, consistency with the maintenance of the system of collection of income-tax at the source.

The Case of Hugh Watt

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to a sworn statement by Alfred Dixon Brown, formerly a prisoner at Wormwood Scrubbs, in reference to a confession alleged to have been made to him by a convict named Lightfoot, regarding the character of the evidence given by him, and the circumstances under which it came to be given, in the recent case of Rex v. Hugh Watt; whether he is taking steps to test the veracity of the statement; whether, if such statement be proved to be correct, he will reconsider the question of advising a modification in the sentence passed upon Hugh Watt at the said trial; and whether the Government will consent to the introduction of a clause in the Criminal Appeal Bill, making the same retrospective in its character, in order that the case of Rex v. Watt may be reviewed by the Court of Criminal Appeal.

* : The statutory declaration referred to has been submitted to me, but I find on inquiry that such of the statements attributed to Lightfoot as can be tested are false and that no credit can be given to any of them. I am not prepared to advise any exercise of the Royal Prerogative in favour of Hugh Watt, and I cannot here discuss the provisions of a Bill now under the consideration of the other House.

Case of Mr. Harold Nisbet Price

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it has now come to his knowledge that the Commissioner of Police is convinced that a mistake in the case of the arrest and charge of Mr. Harold Nisbet Price was made by the constables, and that he is now satisfied that Mr. Price was innocent of the charge preferred against him, and that the evidence given by Mr. Price at the police court was the true version of the facts; and whether the officer in charge of the Upper Street police station on the 11th February has been punished for his action in the matter.

* : Yes. The inquiries made by the police have clearly established the fact that Mr. Price was innocent and that the officer who arrested him, though he acted in perfect good faith, was mistaken. The officer in charge of the station, who was guilty of a grave error of judgment in detaining him until he produced sureties instead of releasing him at once on personal recognisance, has been punished by the Commissioner.

Fishermen and the Workmen's Compen- sation Act

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether it is proposed that fishermen engaged for a season's fishing, and who are paid no wages, but are remunerated by the allocation to them of a share of the gross proceeds of the fish sold, shall be workmen within the meaning of the Workmen's Compensation Bill.

* : The mere fact that a fisherman is paid by a share of the gross proceeds of the fish sold, is not inconsistent with the existence of a contract of service between him and the person by whom he is engaged, and the fishermen in such a case might be a workman within the meaning of the Workmen's Compensation Bill; but it would be otherwise if this mode of payment were accompanied by terms showing that the relation was in substance one of partnership rather than one of service. The circumstances in each case would have to he considered, and the facts suggested in the Question are not sufficient to enable an opinion to be formed, which would be applicable to all cases where this mode of payment is adopted.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether it is proposed that fishermen engaged for a season's fishing, and who are paid no wages, and contribute to the purpose of the adventure by providing nets or by bearing part of the expense of outfit or stores of the boat, and are remunerated by a share of the net proceeds of the fish sold, after deduction of the cost of stores and other expenses, shall be workmen within the meaning of the Workmen's Compensation Bill.

* : The terms of agreement stated in this Question give rise to a strong presumption of partnership. The fishermen in the case here supposed, contributes to the capital, and is paid by a share of the nett instead of the gross profits. There are terms and conditions other than the mode of payment which might have to be taken into consideration ( e.g., the control of the adventure), but if regard be had only to the facts suggested in the Question, the fishermen would be a partner, and not a workman within the meaning of the Bill.

Police Holidays

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he would consider the possibility, in the case of the Metropolitan Police, of applying the same arrangements which obtain for the provision of a yearly holiday of two weeks (namely, a slight extension of the area of the beat for the men on duty) to the question of giving each man one day off in seven, thus conferring an immense been without any additional expense.

* : I should be very glad if it were possible to adopt my hon. friend's suggestion but I am afraid the difficulties at present are too great. In many instances the area of the beat is already too large, and I agree with the Commissioner of Police, whom I have consulted, in thinking that a further extension cannot safely be made.

Metropolitan Police Accounts

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make arrangements for the accounts of the Metropolitan Police and Police Pensions Funds for the year ended March 31st, 1906, to be presented pursuant to Act 30 and 31 Vic, c. 39, to contain the outstanding debtors and creditors at March 31st last on the ordinary police establishment and police pension funds, in addition to the balance account submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

* : I am afraid that I cannot undertake to do this; it would not be possible before the 30th instant (the latest date allowed by statute for the presentation of the Metropolitan Police accounts) to ascertain with any degree of accuracy the amounts due to the various contractors and other persons for goods supplied and work done up to March 31st. I may, however, state that every effort is invariably made to secure that, as far as possible, all payments properly chargeable against the year's income shall be made within the financial year, and that all income receivable shall be collected and brought to account within the year.

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will lay before both Houses of Parliament copies of the annual estimates of expenditure and income relating to the Metropolitan Police and Police Pension Funds in respect of the financial years ended on March 31st, 1905 and 1906 respectively, compiled for the information of the Home Office by the receiver for the Metropolitan Police district.

* : No, Sir. An animal statement of the accounts of the Metropolitan Police Fund is laid before Parliament on April 30th and the audited account of the Fund is included in the volume of Appropriation Accounts. I do not think any useful purpose would be served by presenting the Departmental Papers to which the hon. Member refers.

Metropolitan Police Rate Warrants

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider the advisability of introducing a Bill at an early date to amend the provisions of the 29th Section of the Act 10 George 4, cap. 44, to enable the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police to levy the half-yearly rate warrants upon the councils of metropolitan boroughs and other places liable to the Metropolitan Police rate on April 6th and October 1st in each financial year, beginning with April 6th, 1907, instead of on the dates fixed at present for the issue of the warrants, viz., July 1st and January 1st, respectively.

* : The Question raised by the hon. Member was considered by my predecessor in office, who came to the conclusion that there was no sufficient reason for altering the existing procedure in regard to the police rate warrants. I will look into it myself, as desired by the hon. Member; but I would point out to him that if the dates were altered as suggested it would be necessary cither to levy on July 1st, 1906, a rate sufficient to provide for nine month's expenditure or to levy on January 1st, 1907, a rate to provide for three months.

Vaccination Certificates

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the attitude adopted by certain justices towards applicants for vaccination certificates, he will consider the desirability of introducing legislation which shall specify the questions which justices shall put to such applicants.

I will take note of the suggestion of my hon. friend; but I doubt whether the method which he proposes would afford the best way of meeting the object which he has in view.

In reply to a Supplementary Question by Sir W. J. COLLINS (St. Pancras, W.)

said that any inquiry by magistrates as to the validity of the ground of objection would be possible.

Lord de Ramsay's Huntingdon Estate

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the notice given by Lord de Ramsay, to 1,072 allotment holders on his Huntingdon estate, that he is prepared to assist the local authority in taking over the land at present held by them; whether he has received any application from the local authorities of the district; and whether, as the notices terminating the present arrangement expire on October 12th next, he will endeavour to facilitate the application of the local authorities so as to secure to these tenants continuity of their tenure.

I have not received any application from the local authorities referred to with respect to this matter, nor has my attention been called to it. If any such application is made I will give it immediate and sympathetic consideration.

Royal Commission on Poor Law Administration

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the importance of its deliberations to many subjects of discussion, he will make representations urging the Royal Commission on Poor Law Administration to issue interim reports or interim volumes of evidence; and if he can say at what date approximately the House will be in possession of such first report or volume of evidence.

I have communicated with the Chairman of the Royal Commission on this subject, and learn from him that the Commission would gladly make any interim reports which would be of use in themselves and at the same time would not prejudge the general questions refered to them. Whether it will be practicable for them to make any such reports the Chairman is at present unable to say. He doubts the expediency of publishing evidence which is incomplete and might therefore be misleading.

Railway Clearing House Extensions

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Railway Clearing House authorities have rehoused any of the persons that have been displaced by the gradual extension of their premises in Seymour Street, St. Pancras; and whether, in case of any further extension of their premises in this neighbourhood, they or the railway companies who control them will be required to rehouse the persons they may displace.

I find that in the year 1874 the Clearing House acquired under an Act of Parliament thirty-seven houses in this neighbourhood, and have at various times demolished them and built offices on the sites. I understand that in each case full notice was given to the tenants and suitable compensation made. The Act of 1874 contained no provision for rehousing, and the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1903, does not apply. I understand that the need for any further extension of the Clearing House is extremely remote. If application were made to Parliament for power to acquire additional property, the requirements of the Act of 1903 would of course have to be complied with.

Poor Law Settlements

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the present position as to settlements of poor persons in parishes divided under the operation of Sections 1 (3), 36 (1), or 36 (2) of The Local Government Act, 1894; and whether he will propose some remedy to meet the cases in which persons have lost their settlement by reason of the division of the parish in which they were born or have derived a settlement.

I am aware that it has been decided by the High Court that if a parish was formed into two or more separate parishes by operation of the Local Government Act, 1894, persons who had a settlement in the original parish lost it, and did not acquire a settlement in any of the new parishes. I have no power to remedy this result, which can only have a temporary effect, and I could not promise to propose legislation on the subject. Where parishes have been altered or abolished by means of orders of the councils of comities or county boroughs, the Local Government Board have taken care to see that provision was made, either by the original order or by the order confirming it, to prevent any difficulty in this matter. They have also inserted provisions on the subject in any orders made by themselves whereby parishes have been altered or abolished.

The Distress Committees

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the suggestions made by the Nottingham and Swansea Distress Committee that the Committees should suspend operations during the summer months, mainly owing to lack of funds; whether it is competent for a distress committee to suspend operations; and whether it is intended to so amend the Unemployed Workmen's Act this session as to on able distress committees to obtain funds either from the National Exchequer or the local rates for carrying on labour farms and other undertakings on which the able-bodied unemployed may be set to work.

I have not received any communication on this subject from the distress committees referred to. It is within their competence to determine from time to time whether applications should be received by thorn from unemployed persons for assistance under the Act. I am afraid I cannot give any intimation as to what may be proposed in the Bill which the Government have stated they propose to introduce for the Amendment of the Act.

Metropolitan Water Board Accounts

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board the date when the second audit of the accounts of the Metropolitan Water Board for the year ended March 31st, 1905, was commenced, and the probable date when the statutory financial statement will be signed.

Practically the audit has been going on since September, 1904, but in December last the books were made up in a complete form, and the audit was formally opened on the 4th of that month. The work of the audit is now finished, and the financial statement will be signed very shortly.

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if any steps have been taken by the Board, and the nature of them, to issue a form of accounts, with exemplifications, for the keeping of the accounts of the Metropolitan Water Board and its officers since the Metropolis Water Act, 1902, came into operation.

Since the transfer to the Metropolitan Water Board of the undertakings of the water companies in June, 1904, the District Auditor has been in frequent consultation with the officers of the Water Board as to the systems and forms which should be adopted for the various branches of the accounts. The Local Government Board have instructed him to make a special Report to them with respect to the general system of the accounts kept, and particularly as regards the accounts relating to the collection of the water rates. The Auditor states that there is no urgent need for regulations as to the form of accounts, and that it would be better not to issue them until after the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Accounts of Local Authorities has been received and considered.

Marconi's Wireless Telegraphy

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will lay a copy of the contract between the Postmaster - General and the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company upon the Table.

I will lay the contract on the Table.

Members' Correspondence

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will consider the advisability of allowing Members of Parliament to frank up to twenty-five letters a day, such letters to be handed in at the Lobby Post Office

I am afraid I do not see my way to support the suggestion of the hon. Member.

National and Tate Galleries

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he could see his way to altering the arrangements for opening the National Gallery and Tate Gallery so that they may be open for a full day on Sunday, and from two o'clock onwards on Monday, or some other weekday which is not a general holiday.

An entirely different staff is employed on Sundays in the galleries so that the proposed change would involve a large increase of expenditure. In any case, however, a proposal to open the galleries during the morning hours on Sunday would not, I think, be in accordance with the wishes of the public generally.

>Zoological Gardens

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any grant, advantage, or privilege is extended by the Government to the Zoological Gardens, Regent's Park; if so, what is the nature of such grant, advantage, or privilege; and whether, in return for this, he can arrange that the public shall be allowed free admission to these gardens on one or more specified days in each week.

The Zoological Society hold their land in Regent's Park on an annual tenancy from the Commissioners of Woods. Beyond this they receive no grant, advantage, or privilege, so far as I am aware, from public sources. In the circumstances I do not see any ground on which I could press the Society to admit the public to the gardens free of charge.

St. Pancras Schools

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if his attention has been called to the number of public elementary schools in St. Pancras which are seriously overcrowded; is he aware that several of the non-provided schools in the borough have been condemned as being unsuitable, from the point of view of structure, for the purposes of elementary education; that some of these schools have already been closed, the children who attended them being distributed amongst the other schools in the vicinity; and whether, in view of the arrears to make up in building in St. Pancras before the present requirements are met, he proposes to take any action in the matter.

My attention has been called to the facts mentioned in the Question. The Board of Education have informed the London County Council that they cannot sanction, for anything more than a strictly temporary purpose, the arrangements adopted by them for accommodating the displaced children in Council schools in which there is not adequate room for them. In some cases, I understand, the central halls have to be used as classrooms in order to meet the influx of children. The Board understand that the County Council are hastening as far as possible the provision of proper accommodation to meet the existing deficiency, and that the arrangements which have been criticised are in fact strictly temporary and will be replaced very shortly by proper provision.

Adulteration of Butter

I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board is aware that a food exhibition is about to be held in the Crystal Palace; and whether, with a view to the enlightenment of the people of this country, in regard to the extensive practice of food adulteration, the Board will arrange to send to that exhibition samples of milk-blended butter, cocoa-nut fat, lardine, and other foreign fats now used in adulterating butter, cotton seed searin used in the manufacture of margarine, special machines from Holland for butter faking, and other articles the use of and employment of which is now known to Professor Thorpe and other highly-placed officials of the Board of Agriculture.

I have no doubt that an exhibition of the articles used in the adulteration of butter would be both interesting and instructive, but I am afraid that we must leave the matter to private enterprise.

Seed Testing

I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether any steps have been taken for the establishment of an agricultural seed-testing station, as recommended by a Departmental Committee of the Board of Agriculture about five years ago.

No steps have yet been taken for the establishment of a Government seed-testing station, but the Aynsome Agricultural Station in Lancashire and most of the agricultural colleges undertake the work, and I doubt whether any further action on the part of the Government is needed. I may remind my hon. friend that two members of the Committee were of opinion that the case for a central seed-testing station under Government auspices was not a strong one.

Sanitary Condition of the Lews

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that Dr. Dittmar, in his Report on the sanitary condition of the Lews, directs attention to the fact that the township of Lurebost, consisting of 125 houses, is built on the side of a hill below the road in such a manner that the houses receive all the surface drainage from the road; and, in view of the fact that there are suitable sites on the upper side of the road, will he state whether the Local Government Board for Scotland have taken any steps to enforce the Public Health (Scotland) Acts in this township.

The whole subject of the insanitary conditions prevailing in parts of the Lews is engaging my anxious consideration; the position of the local authority is one of great difficulty, as indicated by the facts mentioned by the hon. Member; the subject involves consideration of general policy, and every effort is being made to hasten the time when some announcement can be made.

[The following Questions which also appeared on the Paper were covered by the foregoing Answer:—

To ask the Secretary for Scotland, in view of the fact that the local authorities in the island of Lewis are unable to give effect to the provisions of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, or take such action as may be necessary to remedy the insanitary state of the townships as disclosed in Dr. Dittmar's Report, will he say whether the Local Government Board for Scotland have yet considered the expediency of meeting the difficulty by taking over the public health administration of the island.

To ask the Secretary for Scotland, in view of the fact that the local authorities in the island of Lewis state that, in endeavouring to carry into effect the Public Health Acts, they have imposed a maximum rate of Is. per £, fixed by statute, will he state what steps the Government propose to take to remedy the insanitary condition of the island, which has been described in Dr. Dittmar's Report as a disgrace to civilisation.]

River Crossing in the Island of Lewis

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that on the 16th ultimo a girl named Jessie Mackinnon, when returning home from Lurebost to Grimshader, island of Lewis, narrowly escaped drowning when passing over the river which has to be crossed when walking from one village to the other; and, seeing that the previous week a woman accompanying the district nurse to Grimshader had a similar narrow escape from drowning, will the Congested Districts Board provide the necessary sum for the erection of a footbridge over the river.

I was not aware of the facts recited by the hon. Member. If an application is made to the Congested Districts Board by the statutory authority, giving particulars upon which to found a judgment, the matter will receive their consideration.

Sasine Office, Edinburgh

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the engrossing clerks in the Sasine Office, Register House, Edinburgh, who are on piece work, have been idle for long periods lately; that they have received no acknowledgment of the memorial they presented last July craving an amelioration of their alleged grievances, nor of the communication they addressed to him on February 20th last-referring to the continued idleness; whether it is the intention of the Government to grant an inquiry into the conditions of their employment; and, if so, when.

I am aware that, at certain times of the year, after the term pressure is over, the staff of engrossers cannot be kept fully employed. My attention has been drawn to the communications referred to by the hon. Member, but the petition by the engrossers cannot be considered apart from questions affecting the general administration of the Sasine Office, and I am unable at present to make any statement as to the intention of the Government.

Melrose District Asylum

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he will consider the expediency of making statutory provision for the granting of superannuation allowances to the officers and servants of the Melrose district asylum and of other Scottish district and parochial asylums, similar to the statutory provision made for the officers and servants of county and borough asylums in England, district asylums in Ireland, and chartered asylums in Scotland.

The suggestion of the hon. Member is deserving of consideration, but it cannot be realised without legislation, and I am unable to undertake to introduce a Bill conferring the necessary powers this session.

Irish Charitable Loan Societies

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether it is intended to promote legislation this session dealing with Charitable Loan Societies (Ireland).

It is intended to introduce legislation if time should permit.

Irish Grazing Tracts

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he is aware of the system practised by some landlords of parcelling out their grazing tracts and selling their occupation interests to persons who are led to believe they can purchase such holdings under the Land Act of 1903; and whether, as such a system enables shopkeepers and persons already in possession of large farms to purchase those parcels, thereby debarring the Estates Commissioners from acquiring those lands for distribution amongst evicted tenants, labourers, residents in congested districts, and others, as provided in Clause 2 of the Act, he will state whether the Estates Commissioners will sanction the advance of loans to those purchasers whose action tends to render Clause 2 inoperative.

I beg to refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by my right hon. friend the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant to a similar Question addressed to him by the hon. Member on March 13th last.†

Irish Land Bonus

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that His Majesty's Government in 1903 obtained the consent of Parliament to a bonus of £12,000,000 on the express understanding that it would serve as a financial bridge to enable landlords and tenants to meet, and to be equally beneficial to them, and that this bonus is now being wholly appropriated by the landlords, who are at the same time extracting from purchasing tenants four and half years' purchase in excess of the average prices certified to be just under previous Purchase Acts; and whether the Government will take any steps to have the benefit of the bonus equitably divided between the parties as Parliament intended.

The

†See (4) Debates, cliii., 1114.

hon. and learned Member is of course aware that the intentions of Parliament can only be collected by means of the interpretation according to legal principles of its statutory enactments. The Irish Land Act of 1903 distinctly provides that the bonus on land purchase is payable to the vendor. It would not be possible, in reply to a Question, to discuss the argumentative matters referred to by the hon. Member.

Valuation of Irish Holdings

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland by what statutory or other authority does the Irish Land Commission require a holding to be valued, not in its entirety, as laid down in the Land Law (Ireland; Act, 1896, but piecemeal, as shown by the schedules in the cases dealt with; and will he obtain the opinion of any competent and independent English valuer as to the comparative merits of the two systems, valuing a holding as a whole, including the buildings essential for living on and working it, and then making any deductions to find the net value, or valuing each field separately, exclusive of buildings, and adding these and the value of the buildings together to build up a gross value.

I am informed by the Land Commission that the form of schedule referred to has been prescribed by them in pursuance of the statutory powers conferred on them by Section 1 of the Act of 1896, and, inasmuch as the matter is not within my power, I have no right to institute the inquiry suggested in the latter part of the Question. I may, however, add that, as the Commissioners inform mo, the principle which they follow of valuing lands apart from buildings was that adopted by Sir Richard Griffith in his valuation of Ireland.

Sub-Commissioners' Instructions

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland will he lay upon the Table of the House, or make available to Members requiring it, a copy of the instructions under which lay Sub-Commissioners and court valuers act, corresponding to the instructions recently issued by the Estates Commissioners to their inspectors and valuers.

The Land Commission assume that by court valuers is meant the Assessors appointed under the Act of 1903 in substitution for the valuers who, prior to that Act, inspected and reported upon holdings as to which appeals were pending. The Land Commission inform me that no instructions have at any time been issued to either Assessors or Assistant Commissioners as to the performance of their judicial functions. Directions as to administrative matters were issued for the guidance of Assistant Commissioners in July, 1897, and these directions appear in Vol. III of the Appendices to the Report of the Royal Commission on the Land Acts (c. 9107 of 1898). General Orders with regard to Assessors framed in accordance with the 89th Section of the Act of 1903 were published in the Dublin Gazette on November 9th, 1903, and also as statutory rules (No. 1117 of 1903).

Irish Land Finance

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that all the £112,000,000 provided by the Irish Land Act, 1903, is, according to the official Returns and to the true value of land as officially ascertained under previous Purchase Acts, being applied pro tanto to the following purposes, namely, to pay the landlords the true value of the property sold £80,000,000, to pay the landlords in excess of the true value £20,000,000, to pay the landlords the bonus £12,000,000, and that while under the Land Act of 1896 the tenant purchasers would have paid in interest and sinking fund for property of the net value of £80,000,000 the gross sum of £137,143,857 under the Act of 1903, as hitherto worked, the tenant purchasers are, under pressure, contracting to pay for property of the same net value £178,100,000, or an increase of more than £40,000,000; and whether he will consider the advisability of taking stronger measures to counteract the gradual imposition of this additional burden upon Ireland.

Without in any way admitting the accuracy of the computations made in the Question, I beg to say that I cannot, within the limits of an Answer, undertake to argue the very intricate questions raised by the hon. Member.

Labourers (Ireland) Bill

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if, remembering the benefits conferred upon one section of the community by the Land Act of 1903, he will see that the bonus under the Irish Workers Bill now in preparation shall be relatively commensurate with the needs and deserts of the particular class to be benefited under it.

If the hon. Member refers to the Labourers (Ireland) Bill which it is proposed to introduce shortly, I may say that I am fully alive to the various necessities of the case, and will do all I can to meet them.

Teaching Irish in Irish Schools

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, dated the 12th of March 1906, in which a grant of £10 is made on account of each school attended by Gælic-speaking children, on the staff of which there has been for not less than six months of the school financial year at least one Gælic-speaking teacher, other than a pupil teacher, who has given instruction, both in Gælic and English, to the satisfaction of His Majesty's inspector; and whether, in rearranging the scale of foes for the teaching of Irish in Irish schools, he will take into consideration this Scotch precedent.

The principle of providing Gælic-spoaking teachers for schools in districts where Gælic is spoken has my cordial approval, but, as the hon. Member knows, the matter belongs to the Commissioners of National Education as well as to the Irish Government. I will consider the suggestion which the hon. Member makes, but the system of State aid to schools in Scotland differs considerably from that followed in Ireland; the grant of £10 referred to in the Question is a payment to the authorities responsible for the conduct of the school and is applicable to the general purposes of the school. No payments of the kind are made to the managers of National Schools in Ireland, and therefore the provisions of the Minute referred to cannot be completely adopted without introducing a principle which will be new in Ireland.

Ballyfermoyle Estate, Roscommon

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Ballyfermoyle estate, in the county Roscommon, is in a congested district; whether, seeing that it has been on offer for sale to the Congested Districts Board for the past six months, he will say whether it has yet been inspected; and, if not, whether he can suggest a date on which the inspection will take place.

The estate in question is in a congested district, but the Congested Districts Board, having regard to their plans, cannot fix a time for inspecting it. There will, however, be no unnecessary delay.

King-Harman Roscommon Estate

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the farm of James Martin, on the estate of Edward Charles S. King-Harman, at Clogher, county Roscommon, has been valued under the rules or directions to valuers, which has been since cancelled, at £5,071 as the price Mr. Martin is to pay; that the value was fixed on the basis of the holding being security for so much, and without regard to the tenant's improvements or the rent payable, or the fact that this figure leaves the yearly annuity £9 more than the tenant paid in rent for the holding prior to 1902; and whether, having regard to the new directions issued to inspectors not to confuse price with security, a fresh inspection of this farm will be ordered for the purpose of fixing a price for the landlord's interest, so as to save the tenant having to pay over again for his own and his predecessor's improvements.

The Estates Commissioners inform me that the subject-matter of the Question is still under their consideration, and that they do not think it desirable to go into the details in this House of a matter which has not yet been decided.

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to a Resolution of the Boyle Town Commissioners regretting that processes have been issued by the Estates Commissioners against purchasers on the King-Harman estate for failing to pay their purchase instalments, and in view of the rate of interest demanded from these tenants, and of the effect of the rumour of the introduction of Canadian cattle upon local fairs and the sale of stock, appealing to the Estates Commissioners to put a stay on these processes; and whether he will take any action in this matter.

I am informed by the Land Commission that in every case in which a land purchase annuity or the interest on purchase money is in arrear, it is the statutory duty of the Commissioners to proceed for the recovery of the same. The rate of interest is fixed by the Act of 1903 at 3½ per cent. The Commissioners add that out of 2,923 persons liable to pay in respect of their holdings on the King-Harman estate which has been purchased by the Estates Commissioners, only forty-one were in arrear on the last gale day, and upon proceedings being taken eighteen of these have paid, leaving but twenty-three still in arrear.

Galway Police

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many promotions to the rank of sergeant or acting-sergeant have been made in the county Galway during the last ten years; and how many of the persons so promoted were Protestants and Roman Catholics respectively.

I am informed by the Inspector-General that in county Galway during the ten years ending 31st December, 1905, ninety-seven men were promoted to the rank of sergeant, of whom seventy-eight were Roman Catholics and nineteen Protestants. During the same period the number of men promoted to the rank of acting-sergeant in the county was eighty-nine, of whom seventy-seven were Roman Catholics and twelve Protestants. Promotions to the rank of sergeant are made from a seniority list of all acting-sergeants in the entire force, and men are promoted according to their seniority on this list.

Athenry Outrage

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a man named Broderick, who is in the employment of Air. Frank Shawe Taylor, of Moorpark, Athenry, was shot at between eleven and twelve at night of 31st March while driving to Moorpark on a ear, and that the police constable told off to protect Broderick, who was also on the car, was struck by some of the shots; whether the police have made any arrests in connection with the matter; and whether he can say what special stops, if any, the Government is taking to put down the lawlessness which at present exists in county Galway.

I beg to refer to my reply to the similar Question of the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh on Thursday last, † I have only to add that I am informed by the police authorities that there is no exceptional lawlessness in county Galway at present. An ample police force is stationed in the county, and all necessary protection is afforded to those persons who require it.

Mr. Kelly, J.P., and the Loughrea United Irish League

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to a speech made by Mr. P. J. Kelly, J.P., at a meeting hold at Loughrea, on Sunday, March 17th last, of the South Galway Executive of the United Irish League, in which he said, speaking of the division of certain farms, that, if necessary, they would be prepared to go out again with the rifle and the blunderbuss to plant the people on the soil; and whether the Irish Government is going to allow Mr. Kelly to continue to exercise the functions of a magistrate after having made use of such language.

It is presumed that the Question refers to Sunday, the 11th

† See (4) Debates, clv., 685.

of March. I have seen a newspaper report of the proceedings at a meeting held at Loughrea on that day, according to which Mr. Kelly used the language quoted in the Question. I am, however, informed that the meeting was held within doors, and that there is no evidence to show whether the language was in fact used. The matter rests in any case with the Lord Chancellor, who informs me that he has no information on the subject of the Question.

Insanitary Irish Schools

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the fact that so many national schools have been condemned as insanitary in country districts, and that the inhabitants are desirous of erecting better buildings, but are in many cases unable to raise the necessary one-third of the cost, the Commissioners of National Education will in such cases consider whether they I can advance more than the customary two-thirds of the cost, provided the schools are vested in them.

* : The Question raised by the hon. Member has already received the consideration of the Irish Government and the Commissioners of National Education. I am not, however, in a position to make a statement on the subject pending the settlement of the general question of building grants for national schools in Ireland.

Irish Intermediate Education

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can explain why the grant from the Board of Intermediate Education has been reduced; and whether, seeing that owing to the Board's regulations a constantly increasing expenditure is made necessary, he will try to have this grant remain as heretofore.

The reasons for the reduction of the grant in 1905 were fully explained in my replies to similar Questions on February 26th and March 28th.† I am informed by the Board of Intermediate Education that it would not be feasible to fix definitely the rates or

† See (4) Debates, clii., 795; cliv., 1286.

amount of the school grant, because the income of the Board, the number of students examined, and the quality of the answering, are all liable to fluctuation.

Clanricarde Estate, Galway

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can give the names of the Sub Land Commissioners before whom the applications to fix fair rents on the holdings of the Derrygoolin tenants, near Whitegate, county Galway, on the Clanricarde estate, were heard; can he say how long these tenants or their predecessors in title were in occupation of these holdings; what was the condition of the lands when they first occupied them; whether Lord Clanricarde or his predecessors ever expended money in the reclamation of these holdings or allowed for them in rent; did they build dwelling-houses or out-offices or allow for them; whether all the improvements were the absolute property of the tenants; and what was the result of the hearing.

* : I am informed by the Land Commission that a Sub-Commission duly delegated sat in open court at Portumna in December last and heard the applications to fix fair rents to which the Question refers. I have already stated that the Land Commission do not think it right to discuss the judicial decisions arrived at by Sub-Commission Courts. These judicial decisions are announced in open court and the results are communicated to the parties concerned, who can obtain copies of the recorded schedules in each case, and if dissatisfied can appeal as provided by law.

Crown Bents in Ireland

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury what amount of quit rents and other perpetual rents payable to the Crown in respect of land in Ireland was paid to the Commissioners of Woods for the financial years 1903, 1904 and 1905 respectively; what amount of quit rent and other rents was redeemed under the Land Purchase Act of 1903 during the years 1904 and 1905 respectively; and what was the average number of years' purchase redemption paid to the said Commissioners.

The amount of quit rents and other perpetual rents paid to the Crown during the year 1903–4 was £32,813, and during the year 1904–5, £32,363. The figures for the year 1905–6 are not yet available. The amount of the rents redeemed under the Land Purchase Act of 1903 was £591 for the year 1904, and £887 for the year 1905. The average number of years' purchase paid for redemption is twenty-five.

Crowenstown Pillar Post

I beg to ask the Postmaster General if he is aware that the small use made of the pillar post at Crowenstown, Westmeath, is due to the fact that it is cleared in the morning instead of the evening, causing the loss of a day by its use, and that the people whom it ought to serve are obliged,, several hours after the postman has left, to travel throe or four miles to Delvin in the evening with their letters; and if he will arrange to have the box cleared at a reasonable hour in the evening.

I find that the cost of the postal service in the neighbourhood of Delvin and Crowenstown is already very high compared with the amount of correspondence. The morning collection is made in the ordinary course of the postmen's rounds. To clear the letter box in the evening would require a special collection; and the additional expense involved would not, under the circumstances, be justified.

Mountjoy Postmistress

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that, as a result of a private official investigation, Mrs. Beatty, postmistress at Mountjoy, county Tyrone, was recently dismissed; whether he can state the grounds of the dismissal; and what influence was brought to bear, or what representations were made which induced the authorities to refrain from a prosecution.

Mrs. Beatty was dismissed for stealing letters. No influence was brought to bear or representations made in regard to the case.

North Seas Fishery Investigation

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the North Sea international scientific investigations are now sufficiently advanced to enable the Government to form an opinion as to the advisability of closing against foreign as well as British trawlers, areas such as the Moray Firth; and, if so, will he consider the expediency of recommend-the Foreign Office to communicate with other European Powers on the subject, especially having regard to the fact that at the Christiania Conference a Resolution in favour of closing such areas was carried.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Sir H. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

I am informed that the investigations to which my hon. friend refers are not sufficiently advanced to justify the expression of any definite opinion on the question. No occasion, therefore, has arisen for considering the expediency of communicating with Foreign Powers on the subject.

Land Values Taxation (Scotland) Bill

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will grant facilities for referring the Land Values Taxation (Scotland) Bill to a Select Committee.

Yes, Sir. As this seems to be a course which the promoters of the measure would desire, and as we think it would be useful in the interests of the subject itself, we shall be ready to move that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.

Scottish Grand Committee

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he has considered the congestion of business which has already taken place before the existing Grand Committees; and whether he proposes, on an early date, to set up a Scottish Grand Committee for the consideration of Scottish measures.

It appears to me that the Grand Committees at present constituted are not sufficient for the work, and I hope that some relief may be obtained as a result of the recommendations of the Select Committee on Procedure. When an important Scottish measure has received the approval of the House, I would gladly see it referred, as has formerly been done with excellent results, to a Scottish Grand Committee.

[The foregoing Answer also covered the following Question on the Paper:—

To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if, in order to facilitate the progress of business, he will consider the advisability of establishing a Scotch Grand Committee.]

asked if the Committee would consist entirely of Members representing Scottish constituencies.

asked how would the right hon. Gentleman get over the House of Lords.

The House of Lords has nothing to do with Scottish Committees in this House. The House of Lords may stretch its prerogatives sometimes pretty far, but it does not interfere with our Committees, and the question does not arise. I think on previous occasions there has been an admixture of English and Irish Members, but the Committees have been predominantly Scottish.

asked if the same principle would be applied to Welsh measures.

I do not know that I see any objection to the principle's being applied all round. I have not concealed my opinion, but we are dealing now with Scottish measures.

asked whether an English Committee would deal with purely English measures.

asked whether the Government had any proposals to lay before the Committee on Procedure, and, if so, when they would be made known. The Committee had not sat for some time

The Committee will resume after Easter, when certain proposals will be submitted in the same way as proposals were submitted in regard to the hours.

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been drawn to the Resolution passed on the 4th instant by the Convention of Royal Burghs, sitting in Parliament House, Edinburgh, that the time had now arrived for the devolution of the purely domestic business pertaining to the different divisions of the United Kingdom upon local legislatures possessing executive powers; and whether the subject would be remitted to the Committee now sitting on procedure with a view to their consideration and Report, or if he will consider the desirability of its receiving attention from the Government at an early date.

This very large question, the importance of which I fully recognise, will hardly come within the scope of the Select Committee now sitting on the House of Commons Procedure.

Business of the House

asked the First Lord of the Treasury what were the Bills that would be taken on Wednesday before the Motion for Adjournment. With regard to the precedent of the late Government,… he reminded the right hon. Gentleman that in 1904 and 1905 the Bills were taken under the ten minutes' rule.

said the Aliens Bill was not a non-contentious Bill. It was taken under the ten minutes' rule, but there were long speeches made in its favour and in criticism of it. He thought that in 1900 the Second Reading of the Agricultural Holdings Bill was taken in the same way. So the Government were not without precedents. They thought of taking on Wednesday the Post Office Money Orders Bill Committee; the Second Reading of the Open Spaces Bill; the Second Reading of the Naval Prize Bill; and the Dean Forest Bill and the Crown Lands Bill, which would be read a second time and referred to a Select Committee. None of these

…See (4) Debates, clv., 752.

Bills were contentious. He would consult the right hon. Gentleman and see whether he had any objection to any of those Bills being taken. Some of them might be taken to-morrow if the debate on the Workmen's Compensation Bill finished at an early hour.

said that if there was any debate on these Bills on Wednesday there would be a serious invasion of the time during which private Members could raise questions on the Motion for Adjournment. He hoped that if any debate did arise it would be adjourned by the Government.

said he would undertake that no serious inroad should be made upon private Members' time.

asked what the business of the House would be on Tuesday and Wednesday after the holidays, and what Estimates would be taken on the Thursday.

replied that the Bills they thought of putting down for Tuesday were the Notice of Accidents Bill, Report and Third Reading; Police Superannuation Bill, the same stages; Justices of the Peace Bill, Second Reading; Fertilisers and Feeding Stuff's Bill, Registration of Title (Ireland) Bill, and all the other small Bills on the Paper. On Wednesday the Second Reading of the Trade Disputes Bill would be taken. He could not yet say what branch of Supply would be put down for Thursday.

New Member Sworn

Weetman Harold Miller Pearson, esquire, for the County of Suffolk (North Eastern or Eye Division).

New Bill

PETROLEUM (No. 2) BILL

"To amend the Petroleum Acts, 1871 and 1879," presented by Mr. J. W. Benn; supported by Mr. Aldeu, Mr. Whitwell Wilson, Mr. Pickersgill, Mr. Bowerman, and Mr. Steadman; to be read a second time upon Tuesday 24th April and to be printed. [Bill 158.]

Trust Accounts Audit Bill

"To provide for the Audit of the Capital Accounts of certain Trusts," presented by Mr. Eugene Wason; supported by Mr. Harmood-Banner, Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Cochrane, Mr. Fenwick, Colonel Lockwood, Mr. Radford, and Sirs James Woodhouse; to be road a second time upon Tuesday 1st May, and to be printed. [Bill 159.]

Education (England and Wales)

* : Although I rise from this place to fulfil the pledge contained in the most gracious Speech from the Throne and to ask leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law of education in England and Wales, I am still very hopeful that I may receive from the House some portion, at all events, of that kindly consideration which it has already bestowed in so bountiful a measure upon many of its new Members. I was not a Member of the last Parliament; and although it is quite true that previously to 1900 I spent eleven years very happily in this House, I did so in corners and purlieus as remote as possible from the Treasury Bench, on the occupants of which, to whichever Party they belonged—and I had experience of both —I was accustomed to gaze with feelings in which amazement, amusement, and admiration struggled alternately for mastery. It is, therefore, a singularly untrained and inexperienced man who now rises to begin a task which is admittedly so difficult that I do not suppose there is a man in this House, full though it be of new Members, who particularly envies me my job. I will, at all events, do my very best to be lucid and to be brief—as lucid as the glimmering twilight of my intelligence admits of, and as brief as is consistent with lucidity. How far I shall succeed in being lucid I must really leave to the kindly consideration of the House. My brevity will be judged by the unfaltering, unresting fingers of the clock. I am happy in this, that I need not inflict any historical retrospect upon the House. For forty years long have we dwelt in the wilderness of strife and contention and mutual suspicion; and during that period we have become, all of us, only too well acquainted with that one single aspect of the educational problem which bears the ill-omened name of the religious difficulty. It is not the most important aspect. Unhappily, it is the one which attracts the most notice. I should be a happy man indeed could I believe that this crowded House had met to discuss this afternoon, before an eager and interested country, some other aspects of this question; had we met here this afternoon to discuss the breed and bearing, the health and happiness, of seven millions of our children; how best to train them to be cleanly in body and mind and speech; how best to fit them for proficiency in those arts and crafts and mechanical sciences which make nations famous, and which are so especially necessary in these days of fierce competition in all the markets of the world; were we here to consider how we could best unfold before those who may chance to be eager students the ample pages of knowledge, rich with the spoils of time; yes, and how to train—and this, surely, is an important question—that great army of teachers on whose shoulders an age somewhat too neglectful of parental responsibility has transferred the burden which is, at all events primarily, a national obligation. These are only a few questions we have not met to discuss. I, at all events, lay no flattering unction to my soul. I know full well that you have all come here expecting for to see a reed shaken by the wind, quivering and trembling in those icy and unfeeling blasts of sectarian differences which, more than anything else, nip the buds of piety and reverence, and diffuse throughout the land a spirit of self-satisfied materialism. Until we build and maintain a national shelter against those devastating blasts we shall make small progress and have no peace.

But I must not be too gloomy too soon. Much, I cheerfully acknowledge, has happened in the last thirty-six years which may well gladden the hearts of that band of men and women who love education and believe in it for its own sake, and are not content to regard it merely as a portico to either one or other—and sometimes it does not seem to matter which—of the numerous churches and chapels belonging to our divers denominations. The Act of 1870 had its faults, but it did, at all events, permit school boards to come into existence, somewhat sluggishly, somewhat reluctantly; but still it did permit them to come into existence; and a glorious work they did. It is almost worth while to be as old as I am to remember what our great towns were like before 1870. I remember what my own native town—city it has become in my absence—was like before 1870. At least a quarter of its children were running idle, ragged, uneducated about its streets. The schools of the poor were nowhere to be seen. You could almost count on your fingers the lovers of education in that great place. Now the public elementary schools of Liverpool are among the best in the world. It has a training college connected with the Roman Catholics which attracts visitors from all parts of Europe; and it has a University, young, indeed, but active and well endowed. Most of all these things began with the school board; and they have made Liverpool, once a neglected city, a centre, and a great centre, of educational spirit and influence. What is true of Liverpool is true of dozens of other great places. All this cost money. It cost more than money. It cost the self-sacrificing labours of the members of those school boards, citizens of renown, Churchmen every bit as much as Dissenters, Conservatives no less than Liberals, who have built up and transmitted down to us a system of educational structure which almost deserves to be called national, for it serves the wants and supplies the needs of a great Protestant community. All these school boards were destroyed, somewhat indiscriminately, I think, by the Act of 1902. They were destroyed in the interest of that great, that blessed word co-ordination; and the vast burden of that educational work, a work of necessity full of details and demanding precise local knowledge and interest in the circumstance and conditions of each individual school, was transferred to the already heavily ladened shoulders of county councils, city councils, and borough councils. This work, I unhesitatingly say, has in many places proved too heavy. It cannot be done properly; the conditions of time and space, which are not yet ripe for Parliamentary abolition, forbid their being performed properly. The Education Committees contain, I admit, the best men in the district—good men, eager, ready, willing to do hard work in the cause which they love; but they have told me themselves over and over again, many of them, that by the time they have left their homes and travelled to Preston, Wakefield, or Exeter, they are met with an agenda of work so vast and various, so crowded with details about which they can know next to nothing, that their hearts sicken within them and their zeal well-nigh perishes of despair. I do not disguise from myself or the House that I believe a time will soon come when something will have to be done, unless the great work of education is to be divorced from local knowledge and interest, and become a lifeless official-ridden clerk-conducted bureaucracy. When the Bill I am asking leave to introduce comes to be examined it will be found to contain a clause which I hope will restore to smaller areas some autonomy and some interest in education. I do not think it is enough; but I think the House will admit that with so many Apollyons straddling across my path I could hardly be expected—the Government could hardly be expected—to level a lance directly at the heads of those great local educational authorities who have so recently been fed full with power, and who not unnaturally have grown somewhat great with what they feed on, and who believe, perhaps rightly, that these evils I have referred to, the existence of which they admit, can really be dealt with by a judicious application of another blessed word, almost as blessed because nearly as long as co-ordination— devolution. I hope it may prove that this clause will be of considerable use. Subject to that clause, and to any modification that it may effect in our system, the local educational authorities I shall have occasion here to refer to are the same local educational authorities as those now in existence.

I have been told by those who were in the last Parliament that it was a some what different place from this one; it has "suffered a sea-change into something rich and strange." We have had a general election; and as everybody whom I am addressing has of necessity survived that election somehow, and is full of reminiscences of the battle of the platform, it can surprise no one that by the very first clause of this Bill it is proposed to be provided that on and after 1st January, 1908, a school shall not be recognised as a public elementary school unless it is a school provided by the local education authority. That is to say, from and after the date named, no elementary school shall receive a penny of public money either from rates or taxes unless it becomes a provided school within the meaning of the Education Acts. Unless electoral promises and pledges are fustian and fudge, unless they are mere "sound and fury, signifying nothing," no other clause than this was possible. It does not fall short of our pledge, it does not go beyond our pledge, it is our pledge. It carries also with it a second pledge, in relation to tests for teachers. We have been sliding down what a famous Archbishop of Canterbury once called the "slippery slope" for many a year. I believe to-day we have reached the bottom of the hill. The Act of 1902 held the Bill of 1906 within its arms, many saw it there. If ever men can be said to have intended the natural consequences of their own action, the promoters and supporters of the Bill of 1902 must be said to have intended the first clause of the Bill of 1906. The late Prime Minister, whose absence from the House and the reason for it I personally greatly deplore—for although a most formidable critic he is certainly always the most agreeable of auditors—the right hon. Gentleman, winding up the Third Reading debate on the Bill of 1902, made use of those significant words, having in them almost something of a prophetic strain. He said— schools of this country, the old British schools, with their noble maxim, "schools for all," and the national schools, which were frankly Church of England schools without a conscience-clause—those voluntary schools were voluntary schools in substance and in fact. No child had need to attend them, and no citizen was required to subscribe to them. In 1876 attendance became compulsory, and in 1902 the denominational schools of the country were all dumped down upon the rates, subscriptions became obligatory, and were garnered by that pious Churchman the rate-collector. In 1870 the schools were promised some 50 per cent. towards the burden of their great expenditure. Of what that proportion has grown to I will not speak now to tease you with the figures. Everybody long ago, I cannot but think, must have foreseen this inevitable result—thore is no other way out of it—where the public money is taken complete public control must of necessity follow. In many places the abolition and destruction of this vexatious dual system will come as a great relief. The officials of several of our great educational authorities have told me that they are sick with the worry and annoyance of the costly employment of officials who have little else, indeed, sometimes nothing else, to do but to adjust the haggling accounts of the lighting, warming, and heating of these schools between the private owners and the local authority. Dual control has had a gloomy history in this country and in Ireland. We know what comes out of it. I believe that the abolition of it in this case will save an enormous amount of time, temper, and the ratepayers' money.

Now, I do not deny that this first clause affects the alliance which, though constantly varying in its terms and always on a very sandy foundation, has existed for some time between the State and the owners of a certain number of school houses. The State has been content for many years to carry on the business of a public elementary school within these school houses, on five days a week, on certain terms more or less satisfactory to the owners of those buildings. We now propose other terms, and we hope that when they come to be examined they will not be found to wear too harsh an aspect. An alteration is unavoidable, unless it can be contended that the present system is riveted upon us for ever and that we cannot, even if we would, obtain the control of our own public elementary school system. Such a contention is, I submit, perfectly impossible. It is always pleasant to me to quote Mr. Gladstone, and Mr. Gladstone is often cited as an example of a man who carried this notion of the rights of voluntary schools as high as it ever was carried, at all events by any member of the Party to which he belonged. Speaking on June 16th, 1870, he said—

Now, this first clause carries with it certain definite consequences. Every voluntary school receiving rates or grants becomes at once, on so doing a provided school within the meaning of the Education Acts, and consequently it will receive the same kind of religious instruction as is now being given in the provided schools of the country, subject to the famous condition that no catechism or religious formulary distinctive of any particular denomination shall be taught in the school, and subject alway to a conscience-clause. This is to be the general rule throughout the land. And on what is it based? It is based, I do honestly believe, upon the happy experience of thirty-six years during which millions and millions of English children have received their whole school education under these conditions without question and without demur on the part of the parents, or of the children attending those schools. On that experience we are content to build. It is often said that this school board religious instruc- tion, as it is contemptuously described —that these religious exercises and the Biblical instruction given in the schools were a Nonconformist invention. It has been said by ecclesiastics of eminence, who ought to know better, that it is a Nonconformist religion. As a Nonconformist born and bred, as a man nurtured in Nonconformist history and Nonconformist traditions, as one who might almost be described as having been born in the very library of a Nonconformist minister, I protest against that description. It is absolutely without truth and without foundation. If you want to find out for yourselves, as I wish every Member of this House would find out for himself, the nature and the character of the religious instruction given in the provided schools by almost all—practically by all —the local education authorities, you must seek for it in the various syllabuses which have been printed and issued by these authorities. I have seen scores of such syllabuses and have had the pleasure of reading them. It has been the only part of my duty during the last few months that has done me any spiritual good. I will give but one example, and take it from Hampshire. There is safety in Hampshire; there is nothing of the Age of Reason or of the Feast of Reason about Hampshire. I have received a letter from Sir William Portal, in which that gentleman, who is vice-chairman of the Hampshire County Council, says—

Now, what is the alternative? To banish the opening prayer, to silence she familiar hymn, to exclude the Bible save in elegant extracts—there may be logic in that, but I contend that to do so would be to act against she whole desire of the nation; and I certainly would say, let us preserve as long as we can, in a prosaic age and amongst a prosaic people, any idealism we can lay our hands on. "Where no vision is the people perisheth." Our people have been accustomed to look for such scanty glimpses as they have ever obtained of the heavenly vision in the pages of the Bible, and I can see no reason to seek to interfere with what I believe to be the national feeling. The other alternative is denominational education all round —a multiplicity of schools. I will not stop to argue that. I regard it as frankly impossible. I do not deny for a moment that during all the years this strife has been going on between Church and Dissent, the onlookers, the non-combatants have grown more and more numerous, and some of thorn not a little weary and disgusted. They are disposed to say, "Carry on your quarrels, if you will, on consecrated ground only, and leave us in peace and in possession of our schools and of our children." For the reasons I have given I hope no such views as those will prevail. If they do, it will be because of the strange alliance between those who call themselves secularists and those able men, few in number, who regard with suspicion and dislike the simple religious exercises and Biblical instruction which some people go so far as to describe as a new religion. I will not enter into any controversy with any living authorities, but I cannot help referring to one great Archbishop of Canterbury who entertained a very different opinion about the value of these simple exercises and this Biblical instruction. I mean the late Dr. Temple. He was a scholar, a college tutor, a school inspector, a great headmaster. He was Bishop of Exeter, Bishop of London, and Archbishop of Canterbury. He knew this question from top to bottom, and he never hesitated to express his opinion that he attached extreme value to the instruction given in our board schools, and that he was very far from thinking that them was anything in it inconsistent with the children's receiving at other times, at other hands, and other places the full teaching of the denomination of their parents.

Starting, then, with complete popular control, carrying with it the appointment by the local educational authority of the teacher, to whom no creed test can be applied, and with such syllabus teaching as the local educational authority adopts, subject to the conscience-clause, I come now to consider the question of the necessary supply of school places. One half of the children of the country are now in non-provided schools—some very good, some not so good, some bad, and some very bad. Now, what is required? The use of the school-house for five days a week from nine o'clock in the morning until four in the afternoon. And for what purpose is it required? To carry on State-aided, rate-maintained, Government-inspected public elementary schools—a public institution of the very first class of material importance. The second clause of the Bill proposes to authorise the local educational authorities, for the purpose of continuing any existing voluntary school as a provided school, to make, with the consent of the Board of Education, any arrangement they can or they think fit, by agreement with the owners of the school-house, for obtaining such use of it as is required for carrying on a public elementary school. That is to say, they may make such arrangements as they can by agreement with the owners of these buildings, or such of them as are fit for the purpose of carrying on within their walls, as heretofore, the business of a public elementary school; subject, however, to this condition, that the local educational authority shall, during the continuance of any such agreement, assume the whole responsibility of maintaining the entire fabric of the whole school building. That is a very potent condition. Although I do not want to pledge myself to figures, I think the cost of it has been estimated at 2s. a place, which I think will come to something like £260,000 a year. That is a condition to which any arrangement must be subject. Of course I do not doubt that the agreements which are come to will vary in different places, and will vary as to the length of time during which they are to endure. They may also vary as to the amount of occupation, rent, or otherwise, which may be arranged between the parties, subject only to this, that there can be no contracting out of public control and all that public control means, and no contracting out of the obligation on the part of the authority to maintain the fabric. I do not want to extol the advantages of such a scheme, but I may point out that under it it is sufficiently obvious, inasmuch as the owners of the premises remain there, owners in sole and exclusive possession, during the whole of Saturday and Sunday, and also have the use of them in the evening on week-days, that the maintenance of the whole cost of their permanent upkeep is a very considerable gift to the owners of the schools of an expenditure which they would otherwise have to bear.

Now, as to the opportunities which are sometimes called facilities for special denominational teaching in those of our hitherto non - provided schools that may choose to come to terms with the local educational authority; and I will say here, for reasons which I will give in a moment, that the facilities in this Bill are to be confined to hitherto non-provided schools. We do not propose to interfere in any way with the present system of our provided schools. With regard to the opportunities in any schools which may come to terms with the public educational authority I think we shall all agree that those facilities, if they are facilities at all, must be real and not sham ones. They must be a genuine, honest alternative on the days when they are allowed to be given for the ordinary religious instruction of the school. Clause 3, which I will read shortly, provides in effect that if the affording of facilities under this section has been made a condition of any arrangement for the use by the local educational authority of the school house of the transferred voluntary school, that authority shall afford those facilities by enabling children whose parents wish them to receive religious instruction of a special character to receive that instruction on not more than two mornings a week, and no part of the expenditure of giving religious instruction of that special character under this section shall be paid by the local educational authority.

* : Is the religious instruction to be given out of school hours or in school hours?

* : I will explain that in a moment. Perhaps the hon. Baronet will allow me to proceed in my own way and to explain the provisions of the conscience-clause which I propose to insert in the Bill in connection with which this question must be considered. I consider myself somewhat of an expert—it is the only matter in which I do consider myself an expert —on this subject of the conscience-clause. It has always been a matter of grief to many experts that under the old Act of 1870 the conscience-clause proved to be a loose and unsatisfactory contrivance. The reason was that the promoters and supporters of that Bill did what all of us are somewhat too apt to do: they forgot their own childhood. Those promoters and supporters who belonged to the dominant section had never known what it was to be in a minority in childhood. But that is an experience which has always been mine. If they had known they would have appreciated that uniformity is the uniform creed of childhood and that any reasonable child would rather be wicked than singular. To expect any small, thin-skinned mortal between the age of five and fourteen to go into a school in which there is a dominant majority and demand separate treatment is to put upon him a burden which he will never discharge. I remember the burden being put upon my shoulders when I attended a Church of England school in Liverpool, the foundation stone of which had been laid by Mr. Gladstone, and therefore I need hardly say it must have been a thoroughly sound Church of England school, of being asked to claim from my master exemption from the Church catechism. I flatly refused to do anything of the kind, and as a consequence I can repeat it from beginning to end to-day. No conscience-clause is worth anything unless it carries with it the right of withdrawal during the time religious instruction is being given. You may then possibly, instead of being an object of obloquy, become an object of envy. This clause says that the parent shall not be under an obligation to cause his child to attend at the school-house except at the time allotted in the time-table exclusively to secular instruction. There is nothing really new in that provision, for, as a matter of fact—I hope the House will take cognisance of the fact—no parent has ever been prosecuted for not sending his child to school during the hours of religious instruction. For the purposes of the law school attendance begins at the beginning of the time fixed for secular instruction. It may be said that this may give rise to parents employing their children between nine and nine forty-five in odd jobs. Such a course is greatly to be deprecated. I hope it will not occur, but if it should, it would be well that we should strengthen our laws against child labour. The facilities or opportunities referred to in Clause 3 will be given (1) in transferred non-provided schools only; (2) when stipulated for by the owners as part of their bargain with the local educational authority; (3) when demanded by the parents of children actually attending; (4) they will be given at the expense of the denomination demanding them, and (5) not during the hours of compulsory attendance nor by the teachers of the ordinary staff.

On this last point two things, I think, may here be usefully said. First of all, the ordinary staff will be engaged in giving the ordinary religious instruction in the school, and secondly, I have been much struck with the petitions that I have been receiving from the parents of children who demand that their children should have the opportunity of being taught the catechism, including, I have no doubt, the explanation of the Prayer Book by teachers who believe In it. It is no easy matter to command faith. Calvanists and Arminians alike, whatever may have been their success in other fields, have failed in this—creeds, articles, subscriptions—all fail. None the less, the common sense of mankind, I feel convinced, craves that definite and precise religious teaching should be given only by those who believe in it, at all events to children. I wish to put in a saving clause against some of our eminent divines. I think, therefore, as the teachers are to be appointed by the local education authorities, and without the imposition of any religious test, it is desirable that those who wish their children to receive particular denominational teaching should have it given, not only at their own expense, but by teachers of their own choice. If it should happen to be given by the clergyman of the parish, that, after all, would only be restoring to that important person what has always been his canonical duty.

I ought perhaps to mention the reasons why we do not propose under this Bill that these opportunities and facilities should be given in the provided schools. In the first place, as all teaching of a religious character is optional with the local educational authorities at the present moment—though I am glad to think that almost all educational authorities avail themselves of the opportunities of giving it—still, as it is optional, it obviously would not have been possible to make these facilities compulsory. Secondly, it would have brought us, I am certain, into conflict with the local authorities; and I have already had grievous experience of the disadvantage to even the most powerful Board of Education of coming into conflict with a local authority. Thirdly, you must remember that these local authorities, being masters in their own house, do what they like with their own premises, and in some places they have, with varying success, allowed denominational teachers to use their premises. Fourthly, every kind of facility would have to be given to the board school, while in the non-provided schools it will be found possible to confine denominational teaching, and it is proposed that it should be confined, to the kind of denominational teaching stipulated for by the owners of the school. In the board or provided schools it would have to be all kinds, and I think that any one acquainted with the school system or with large schools will know that such facilities, even if granted on paper, would be illusory in practice. Lastly, they would destroy the discipline of the school and thereby incur the opposition—and most powerful it is—of the man who is certainly entitled to be captain on his own quarter-deck—I mean the head teacher of the school. Under the provisions of this Bill all public elementary schools will become provided schools knowing but one control, that of the local educational authority. Between the schools there will be one difference only. In those schools which have been acquired under Clause 2, special denominational teaching, of the kind stipulated for by the owners, will be given if demanded by any parents on two mornings in the week, at the expense of those demanding it, to those children whose parents demand it, but not by the teacher nor in compulsory hours.

Thus far the facilities or opportunities I have spoken of have been of a compulsory character. When demanded and when required, the authorities must grant them. We have now to consider whether we cannot introduce some elasticity into our system in towns and populous places, so as to allow the local educational authority, if so minded, to grant in certain cases these extended opportunities or facilities. We think that this can be done, and we think that it should be done; and I cannot do better now than read the clause in which effect is given to the intentions of the Government in this matter— meet the necessities of the case. Of all the vile phrases that have leapt to light during our recent discussions, I think the vilest of all—it must have been the invention of some Erastian humourist —is the phrase "the Nonconformist conscience." It is ill jesting with men's consciences. If English history teaches us anything, it teaches us that. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have long thought fit to jest with the Nonconformist conscience. I do not know that they have found it a very good joke. The Nonconformist conscience is no worse and no better than the consciences of other men. We all have consciences. Even I have a conscience, and in its tenderest place is a hearty aversion to anything, if I can avoid it, which injures another man's conscience. So far as the great bulk of our Protestant population is concerned, so far as the great bulk of the parents are concerned whose children go to our public elemental y schools, I do not think there is anything contained in our proposals to wound the feelings or the conscience of any man. I believe that the education supplied in the provided schools, and also that which will be supplied in non-provided schools under the provisions of this Bill, with the opportunities and facilities it contains, will be an education consonant with the wishes of the vast majority of the parents of the children attending the public elementary schools of this country. There are, I know, Churchmen who regard with dislike and suspicion undenominational teaching, as it is called. The syllabus teaching, which hon. Members can examine for themselves, and from which I am certain they will learn much, is regarded by some English Churchmen with suspicion and dislike. Then there are the Jews and the Roman Catholics. The conscience-clause does not meet the necessities, real or supposed, of those classes. All minorities must suffer. It is the badge of their tribe. We have all suffered in our day, most of us, from being in a minority. It is the special province, I believe, of enlightened Liberalism to see to it that we do not put any avoidable hardship on anybody's conscience: Nonconformists are often accused, by people who know as little of them as they do of Zulus, of narrow mindedness. They are said to have no sympathies beyond their own denomination. I do not believe that to be the case at all. I believe that among Nonconformists there is great sympathy with High Churchmen. I believe that the books and sermons and pamphlets of High Churchmen are read with deep interest by many Nonconformists. Nonconformists have never failed to take interest in the Jewish schools of this great metropolis; and as to Roman Catholic schools, the man must have a heart like the nether millstone who is not deeply touched by the enormous sacrifices which the Roman Catholics of this country have made to provide for the educational and religious needs of their fellow believers. They are cut off from much which in other times they were fairly entitled to consider their own— cathedrals and other splendid foundations—and they have had cast upon them the obligation of looking after hundreds and thousands of poor Irish folk— children whose fathers or grandfathers were driven out of Ireland and compelled to come to England under pressure of circumstances for which no man in this House, whatever his Party opinions or his opinions on Irish history may be, can hold them responsible. That great obligation they have taken on their own shoulders. I believe I am right when I say it is a charge that ought not to be brought against the Liberal Party as a whole, or against any section of it, that it is without sympathy with those from whom on many important points they must radically differ. It may be said, "After all, there is not much in this clause. It leaves everything to the local authority, and the local authority can do as it likes, and it need not do it unless it likes." I admit it is asking these minorities to trust in the generosity, the equitableness, and the fair-mindedness of the local authority. I believe they can do so safely. I have enough Scottish blood in my veins to be fully alive to the shortcomings of Englishmen; but it may fairly be said of them that they have a positive genius for the honest administration of their own laws. For other people's laws they may have some insular disdain, but for the laws they have passed themselves, which they understand and for which they count themselves responsible, they have a great affection and a great regard; and I believe, therefore, that public opinion would resent—and public opinion would primarily prevail— any churlish withholding by any public local authority of these permissive privileges, which are intended, at all events, in the interest of peace, and what to me is most important, having regard to my office, in the interest of educational efficiency.

I must say one word at least about those non-provided schools which decline the proposal of the local education authority and do not come to terms with them. There are, speaking roughly, three kinds of non-provided schools — those which are privately owned, those which are held on trusts which admit of a non-educational use, and those which are dedicated in perpetuity to educational trusts and cannot be diverted therefrom, and are consequently already under the control of the law affecting charitable trusts or charities. The owners of school premises included in Parts I. and II. are, of course, free agents altogether. They can refuse to allow the local education authority the use of their school premises for five days a week, and then they can either keep open the premises as a school without receiving any public money, either from the rates or from the taxes, or they can close them altogether, pull them down, or do what they like with them. So, too, can those who hold a trust which admits of the property being diverted to non-educational uses; they can close the doors of the school and divert the property as the trust allows. But those in Part III. are not quite in that position; for they must either keep open their schools, or if they propose no longer to keep open their schools they must go to the law to authorise some scheme of appropriating their property to such uses as the law may think proper to allow. This Bill does not propose to make any alteration in the law relating to such matters, but it does propose to alter the jurisdiction, because as the law now stands the Board of Education would be the authority to make a scheme and to direct the future of any one of those schools, and as the Board of Education might perhaps be considered suspect in this instance—and I quite agree that in my case it does not possess sufficient knowledge to deal with the question as it ought to be dealt with— the Bill proposes to appoint a Commission of three members. I am not prepared to give their names to-day, but the legal element will, I hope, predominate; at all events it must be in the chair. The Commission will be the authority before which those owners of school-houses who have not come to terms with the local authority will be carried for the purpose of determining their schemes. In making such schemes—

The House will certainly expect me to say one word about finance. This Bill means money. The Duke of Devonshire, speaking, I think, on the Third Reading of the Bill of 1902, said he thought that when what he called Cowper-Temple religion applied to the voluntary schools of the country, half of them would close their doors. How far that was a sound speculation I have no means whatever of saying. We are dealing, I admit, with things which it is impossible accurately and entirely to apprehend. Men will differ as to the number of the schools which will readily avail themselves of the proposals of this Bill. For my own part, I cannot but believe that many of them, the majority of them, after full consideration will see that this is a proposal which they can well accept in the interests of a national settlement of this great question. It is proposed in connection with the Bill to give, in addition to all the existing grants from the Exchequer in aid of public elementary education, a further annual grant of £1,000,000. The actual cost which will be thrown upon the local education authority as a consequence of the Bill cannot be estimated at the present moment with any approach to certainty. Much will depend upon the spirit of mutual concession which may actuate the local education authorities on the one side, and the trustees and owners of the existing non-provided schools on the other. It seems most unlikely, however, that an annual grant of £1,000,000 will not be far in excess of the actual charge which the Bill will throw upon local education authorities. This sum represents a capital of between £20,000,000 and £25,000,000, allowing for interest at from 3 to 3½ per cent. and for a sinking fund of 1 per cent.; and it is quite clear that the value of the use of the non-provided schools for which the local education authorities would have to pay does not reach anything like this amount. It is proposed that the grant of £1,000,000 shall be distributed in aid of the local education rate upon terms to be laid down hereafter in the Education Code. Parliament will have a full opportunity of discussing those terms both on the consideration of the code itself and on the Estimates. But it is not advisable to lay down at once the conditions on which this additional grant will be distributed.

In the first place, it is necessary for the Board of Education to have some considerable experience of the arrangements made under the Bill between the local education authorities and the trustees of the non-provided schools. Without such experience no estimate can be formed of the probable additional burden in consequence of the Bill in individual areas. In the second place, it is most inadvisable to promise to meet out of a grant from the Exchequer the whole cost—whatever it may be—of acquiring the non-provided schools. The arrangements must be made by the local education authorities, who are in the best position to negotiate on favourable terms, and it is essential to give them every inducement to exercise economy. While, as has been said already, the total amount of the grant will probably be greatly in excess of the total new burden imposed, leaving a wide margin for particular difficulties that particular authorities may have to contend with, it is not proposed that the State should take over the burden of extravagant expenditure to which any local authority might commit itself. The general principle upon which the Board of Education will proceed in the ultimate distribution of the new grant will be to have regard both to the actual increase of local burden consequent upon the Bill and to the existing amount of the education rate.

I have detained the House a very long time. The Bill is divided into five parts. The first part I have explained, I think, sufficiently for the necessities of the moment. The second part deals with what is an enormously important subject—educational endowments, and I would commend the clauses in the Bill to educational zealots and friends of education in all parts of the country. The object of this part of the Bill is to make the educational endowments as serviceable as possible for the advancement of education and to consolidate, simplify, and improve the administrative machinery now in use. At present the Board of Education makes schemes for educational endowments under two sets of Acts known as the Charitable Trusts Acts and the Endowed Schools Acts, which, with the necessary commentary, make up a very heavy volume. The Bill substitutes for these highly technical statutes and for their diverse and complicated procedures, a single procedure embodied in a few simple clauses designed co be intelligible to the ordinary parochial elector. It widens as well as strengthens the Board's powers, and by establishing a more elastic jurisdiction will, it is hoped, facilitate the settlement of controversies which have in the past been a serious obstacle to educational progress. It rests its procedure on the principle, adopted as long ago as 1868 by the great Schools Inquiry Commission (of which the late Lord Iddlesleigh, Dean Hook, and Archbishop Temple were members) that—

The third part of the Act deals with divers reforms—administrative reforms—which, I think, are well worthy of the consideration of the House. Among them is the power of delegation, of devolution, to which I have already referred. There is a clause extending the period for the repayment of money borrowed by a county council from thirty to sixty years. This will tend to make money cheap. We also propose to abolish the 2d. limit. The fourth part of the Bill relates to a council for Wales. That, however, is a matter with which I do not now propose to deal. Singular unanimity upon the subject appears to prevail, not only among Welsh Members in this House, but amongst the Welsh counties themselves; and certainly if on investigation it is found that this country can hand over to Wales whatever her share may be of moneys allocated to education and leave her to distribute it in her own way, Whitehall will have no occasion to regret her departure.

There is one important matter on which I should like to say a word before I sit down, and that is that the present law relating to elementary education generally is in a hopeless mess. It is found in a variety of statutes, references backwards and forwards from one to another are necessary, and the whole thing is roost discreditable. The law as it is at present, quite apart from anything contained in this Bill, has been consolidated by a distinguished draftsman, and it is ready for consideration. I hope that after Easter the House will allow me—it can only be done by consent—to take that Bill through its early stages, and refer it to a Select Committee in order that its terms may be considered. It is purely a consolidating measure unless it be in one tiny respect, in regard to the vexed subject of school attendance. In order really to consolidate that law one or two trivial alterations appear to be necessary; and an instruction or something of that kind may be necessary to enable those alterations to be made. This consolidating Bill can then go up to another place, and after passing through all its stages there it can wait until the Bill I am now asking leave to introduce is ready to be slipped into its place in the consolidating Bill, and then at the end of the session we shall have one Act of Parliament instead of half-a-dozen. I am assured by all who are actively engaged in the administration of the law that this would shorten their labours, lengthen their lives, sweeten their tempers, and therefore do something to enable them better to discharge their most high and difficult functions.

Now I have said all I have got to say. I put together these ill-constructed sentences last Saturday in Battersea Park, a very beautiful place, rich with the promise, I hope not the delusive promise, of early summer—a place simply swarming with children, who all seemed animated by one desire—namely, to ascertain the time from me. Although at first I found their attentions somewhat disconcerting, I very soon came to perceive how congruous was their presence with the whole bent and cast of my thoughts. A hope, I trust not a delusive hope, stole into my breast, although I am not a sanguine man, that perhaps even this measure after it has received, as it will receive, the full consideration and deliberations of this House will be found to be a step forward in the right direction for securing to the children of this country an immunity from those quarrels which are not their quarrels but our quarrels, and to help in securing for them an education which will make them—the finest raw material in the world, as I am satisfied they are—fit citizens of this country, and qualified to play a great part after we have all gone, and thus enable this beloved land of ours to be what it ought to be, the pulsing heart of a beneficent and freedom-loving Empire.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make further provision with respect to Education in England and Wales."—( Mr. Birrell )

* : The right hon. Gentleman has introduced an important, complicated, and controversial measure with all his accustomed force and clearness, and with as much of his accustomed humour as the subject and circumstances allow. He has consulted many distinguished persons, has received many deputations, and it remains to be seen whether in the multitude of counsellors he has found wisdom, safety, or peace. There are various points in the Bill not affecting its main provisions which will need careful consideration when they arise. The question of the abandonment of the register, the regulations for which were prepared by the consultative Committee four years ago, with much care, will affect young students, men and women, who have spent time and money in qualifying themselves for a place on the register. It is now abandoned in deference to the susceptibilities of an association of teachers who possess considerable political influence. The simplification of the law respecting endowments under the Charitable Trusts Act and Endowed Schools Acts is no doubt useful, but in so far as it involves the acquisition by the Board of Education of larger powers it will need to be carefully considered. So, too, with the proposal for establishing an Education Council for Wales; here we shall have to consider not merely the necessity for retaining the influence which the Board of Education should exercise in assisting local authorities in the discharge of their functions, but the rights of the minority in Wales, which though large in numbers, is wholly unrepresented in the House.

But the backbone of the Bill is the treatment of the so-called religious difficulty, and it is solved by the abolition of the voluntary school. It is worth while to ask, What is this institution which is to be abolished? The voluntary schools were the main source of supply for elementary education before the Act of 1870, and they were built almost always in order that, together with secular instruction, definite religious instruction of a certain character should be given. This instruction has, since 1870, been given under a conscience-clause which, so far as I know, has operated so as to prevent any injury to conscience arising from the practice of the voluntary schools. But until 1902 the voluntary schools were in no relation to any local authority. Each was a separate unit, subject only—except as regarded school attendance—to the Board of Education and the code. The Act of 1902 brought all the elementary schools into line, and the arrangement made was as follows. If the managers of a school kept up and provided the school-building free of charge during school hours, and, if need be, for three nights in the week, and if they carried out every direction of the local authority as regarded secular instruction, they were entitled to rate aid equally with the council schools, and they enjoyed, in the constitution of the management of the school, security for the continuance of the religious teaching for the promotion of which the school was built. This arrangement seems reasonable, but it is not satisfactory to the majority of the present Parliament, and I understand that we are now to have a uniform system of council schools. But at what cost are the schools to be acquired? The President of the Board of Education proposes that the local authority should rent the schools during school hours throughout the week, and should maintain the fabric, and he has allocated £.1,000,000 a year to the assistance of the local authorities for the purpose. I think that his estimate is sanguine, and we have also to consider the possibility that the schools may not always be for hire. Owners or trustees may have other purposes for the buildings and may decline to give them up to an authority which intends to frustrate the very objects with which the schools were built. The local authority will then have to build other schools. The ratepayer will realise how much he owed to the voluntary school system, and the two sets of buildings will stand, perhaps side by side, monuments to the wisdom, the economy, and the tolerance of the Parliament of 1906.

In place of the voluntary schools we are to have a complete system of council schools, and in all of these undenominational religious teaching is to be given as under the Cowper-Temple clause. I have no desire to disparage this kind of teaching. It has been often well and effectively pious, and I am glad that by recognising this teaching as universal this Government have definitely declared against purely secular education. But this teaching is not all that we want. In the first place, the teachers who give it have hitherto been trained in Church of England training colleges. Now other types of training colleges have come into the field, and we cannot any longer be sure that the teacher will be as well prepared for this work. And in the second place, this sort of teaching is not satisfactory to many who desire definite religious instruction for their children; although the teaching is endowed at their expense. I do not think that the grounds of their desire are fully realised. Let me try to explain them. We have been maintaining, and urging for some time past on our elementary schools, that education is not merely an acquisition of information, but a development of mind and character and a guide through life; holding this view, we regard religion to be an essential factor in education, and in religious teaching we desire that the child should be taught that he is a member of a community, of a Church, Roman Catholic, Anglican, or Scotch, of a Nonconformist society, or of that larger community the whole congregation of Christian people dispersed throughout the world. But it is not enough that the child should regard himself as a member of a society with conditions of admission and with a standard which he must maintain. And this is why Churchmen are not satisfied with the Bible story interpreted by the teacher, with such explanations as his knowledge or inclination may supply; they wish the Bible to be used as the foundation and authority for the simple formularies, and liturgy of the Church, for the Catechism and Prayer Book. Now, the Bill excludes all this teaching from all schools except such as were voluntary schools and allow it there only permissively on certain days, out of school hours, at the cost of the denomination and from teachers not on the staff of the school. Those who care for this sort of teaching regard it as of supreme importance, not as an "extra" to be taken up at odd times like woodwork and cookery. And for this reason the proposal to allow more ample denominational teaching where a four-fifths majority demand it seems wholly to misconceive the requirements of the denominations. No doubt the proposal is designed to meet the needs of a Roman Catholic population in large towns, but I doubt if it will be satisfactory to them. The parent may say, "You take my children from mo during the best of their waking hours and in some of the most important years of their lives for what you are pleased to call their education. I am entitled to ask that what I regard as of supreme importance should be taught to them, and that its teaching should not depend on the accident of the children forming part of a four-fifths majority of the school." In cases whore health was concerned you would not wait till a certain number of children were ill before you sent for the doctor. Why then should you require this numerical proportion in matters which we regard as equally important with health? Now, the great objections to this scheme of religious education are, first, that one sort of religious teaching and one only is permitted and provided out of public funds, and, second, that while all schools are made council schools equal access is not given to definite religious teaching in all. These are some of the objections which I see to the way in which the alleged difficulty is to be solved, but is there a difficulty at all? Is not the Act working well throughout the country? Only in Wales and the West Riding, where the strongest political influence has been brought to bear to impede its working, has any difficulty arisen. To turn to the practical working of the religious instruction given in the voluntary schools, can the President of the Board of Education state that he knows of a single case of conscience wounded or injustice done? I may state my own experience. I held office in rather troubled times when the Act was coming into operation, when there was suspicion as to its working in the minds of many who afterwards accepted it cordially. Every tremor of an irritable conscience or anxious susceptibility vibrated to Whitehall—was communicated to me, and I can say that I spared no pains to investigate every alleged grievance. I left off with a feeling of wonder at the breadth of imagination and of pity for the depth of credulity of my countrymen. But on this point there is no better evidence than that of the teachers, and no more authentic expression of the teachers' views than is to be found in the Schoolmaster, a paper certainly not under Unionist influence. I read in this Schoolmaster for 2nd December, 1905—

I say that the Church is entitled to demand this on several grounds. A series of Statutes from 1870 onward have encouraged the Church to go on with the provision of schools, in the full assurance that the religious character of the teaching in those schools would be maintained. On the faith of this Parliamentary guarantee thousands of schools have been built and millions of money expended. But beyond this, there is the duty and responsibility resting on the clergy and laity of the Church, to see to it that the children whose parents desire it, obtain the teaching of the Church into which they are born. I know that the right hon. Gentleman desires a settlement on equitable lines, and I, too, earnestly desire such a settlement; but no settlement will be final which is not based on a tolerance by all denominations of each other's religious convictions. You cannot settle this matter by driving out one sort of religious teaching from the schools and establishing another; and unless this equitable tolerance possesses the mind of the Government, the passage of this Bill through the House will be troubled and stormy; if it becomes law it will bear bitter fruit in difficulties of administration and our hopes of educational peace will be postponed if or years, if not for a generation.

* : It is with considerable regret that in a maiden speech I rise to oppose a proposal of this Government; a Government which I desire loyally to support and from which we have such high hopes of reform. I would like to think myself included among the Members referred to by the right hon. Gentleman who take an interest in education for its own sake. At least I would like to hope that I am not to be included among those who envy the Minister of Education his present position. I recognise the enormous difficulties with which he is confronted, and would wish to pay a tribute of respect to the way in which he is endeavouring to cope with those difficulties. I think, however, the solution he proposes is in some respects an impossible one. We are all grateful to the Minister of Education for having taken the bold step of having a unified system of education, and for abolishing tests for teachers, and also for abolishing this queer unpopular control which was established over half the schools of the country in 1902. I wish, however, that in the measure which he proposes he would go a step farther and say that the non-provided school should come under the same system as the provided school, and that whatever is offered to the one shall be offered to the other. The right hon. Gentleman has offered two different solutions of the religious question as applying to two different schools in the same area. In one village, which is given up to one system on two days a week, opportunities are to be given for denominational teaching, but in other villages, under a different system, no such opportunities are afforded. I do not see why the privilege which is given to one should not be given to the other. I think that principal clause of the Bill will be received with practically unanimous approval on this side of the House. I should have liked to have heard a fuller explanation about the educational as apart from the religious side of education. Take the case of the necessitous districts. Some of us have been looking forward to a remedy for the condition of things in some of our poorer city districts, which has become intolerable. I believe I represent about the worst of those districts at the present time. My hon. friend the Member for Preston informed the House, last week —a House I hope incredulous—that the Empire could get on very well without West Ham. Lord Curzon repeated in substance the same assertion. I am sure my hon. friend the Member for South West Ham will agree with me in saying that it is inconceivable for the Empire to get on without West Ham. But if the Education rate continues to rise from 3s.4d. in the pound the British Empire will have to get on without West Ham; because the prosperous or rather unprosperous denizens of that community will pack up their household goods and flee away, leaving a large tract of bankrupt marsh land untenanted. It is very curious that the districts which contain all the problems of poverty, overcrowding, and unemployment are just those which have to bear this enormous burden. It appears to be an attempt to carry out the Scriptural injunction— there are one or two questions which educationalists may be allowed to advance in connection with this Bill. One of those questions is secondary education, upon which the Minister for Education did not One We earnestly hope that secondary education will receive some assistance from this Bill. Then there is the question of the medical inspection of school children. This movement has been started in a spasmodic random way by a few local authorities, but many of us would like to see it made systematically at the national charge.

As to the religious question, I do not believe that the scheme outlined by the right hon. Gentleman, honest as we know it to be, will do anything to stifle the fires of religious controversy which are raging in this country at the present moment. It is my wish to see placed before the country some scheme which shall prove to be a fair and final settlement. The right hon. Gentleman under the Bill is not going to offer subsidies to every religious creed. He is only going to offer a subsidy to one. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the conscience which had been manifested in this religious controversy, and said it was no use going against the conscience of any large section of the religious community. I fail to see how his scheme can help going against the conscience of a large section of the religious community. We tacked enormously to one side in 1902, and now we are going to tack too far on the other side in 1906. This will not bring us into our desired haven. There is only one solution of the religious difficulty and that is that the State should subsidise no form of religion. We cannot get the religious communities of this country to agree upon any common form of religious belief to be taught to little children; and even if we could do that I do not know by what right those who do not accept any form of Christianity should be compelled by us to accept such a form of religious belief. Then we have to deal with those who are known as passive resistors. I am not a passive resister myself. If I were once to examine the various things to which I am compelled to contribute in rates and taxes I should find myself conscientiously resisting most of them. But the passive resister has maintained in difficulty, despite ridicule and inconvenience, in and out of season his view; and the general election has shown him to be triumphant. And these passive resisters have laid down one dear principle—that the State shall pay for no creed that can offend any man's conscience. I say that it is a dangerous position for the State to be attached to any form of belief which is incompatible with the conscience of any one of its citizens. It is a position which in this House no doubt we may put lightly aside as in 1902. But it will afford no settlement of the question. It willl ead to a rekindling of the fires of religious controversy which it is the object of every man on this side as well as on the other side of the House to allay. The right hon. Gentleman made a strong appeal for this particular form of Bible teaching, and he told us that the system had worked well because parents had rarely withdrawn their children. Later on, however, he explained why parents did not withdraw their children. The mandate we have received from the country was not to enforce any particular kind of religious teaching. All the arguments I have heard—and I have heard a good many—as to what is called secular instruction never being tolerated by the people of this country, seem to me to bear a strong resemblance to the arguments used in 1902, and again the other day on the question of Chinese labour. There has been no referendum on this subject. The new scheme does not accept the decision of the local authority on the matter of religious teaching. As I understand, the local authority in Scotland can decide to give religious teaching in conformity with the desires of the people of the locality. That is not offered by this Bill. The people are allowed to choose religion if they like, but only one form of religion. If they wish to choose another they must pay for it. It is only the religion endowed by the State that is to be free. That is playing with the dice loaded. I do not know, but I do not think that the majority of the Members of this House went to their constituents and asked them to record their votes in favour of this particular religion being taught universally in the schools. I admit that in my innocence I exhibited "Religious Equality" on my posters. I shall hereafter have to explain that that was a "terminological inexactitude." I am afraid we shall all have a great many of these terminological inexactitudes to ex- plain. I explained also at every meeting that I would vote for no form of religion being taught by the State. And I found members of all religions, and men of no religion, Churchmen, Nonconformists, atheists, agnostics, all agreeing with me that that was the only satisfactory solution. It is the solution to which this country must come sooner or later. If that be so, why cannot we have it sooner? I venture to make a last appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that we may be allowed on this particular question to vote according to our own convictions. I am quite convinced that if the challenge is fairly offered to us, as to whether we will vote for this change in this Bill or for the destruction of the Government, rather than place hon. Gentlemen opposite in power most Members on this side of the House would vote for any religion to be taught in the schools. I am, I believe, right in saying that the first time this question was raised in 1870, when the first step was taken in this wearisome progress towards a rational system of education, this House was allowed to decide for itself what its opinion was. I do not want the Government to throw the Bill to the wolves and to take no responsibility at all. I want the Government to recognise that this is a matter of conscience and to let us vote according to our consciences. If the right hon. Gentleman does that we may be able to do something to try and damp down those fires which have already been ignited by the telegrams sent out with reference to his speech this evening. On this question some of us, above all, desire peace. We are sick of this theological controversy which has whirled and eddied round the heads of the unfortunate children in our schools for so many months and years. We wish to end the scandal that in a world slowly turning its face away from all definite religion, the forces of Christianity of this country are engaged not in fighting against the common enemy of ignorance and wrongdoing, but in a passionate internecine civil war each against the other. If one-tenth, if one-hundredth part of the energy expended in this civil warfare in the last five or six years had been devoted to the work of social amelioration how far, how enviably far we should have advanced along the path of progress. We desire, above all things, peace. We can see no way to peace at all except by a settlement which all consider just. And we can see o way by which such just settlement an be arrived at except by the State definitely declaring that all religious teaching shall be outside the curriculum and not paid for by public funds. Let the State say to the churches: "You have not decided on some common form of teaching; until you have decided on some common form of teaching we will give every facility outside the schools; but we will keep our schools unified inside, and we cannot pay for such teaching." That is the only settlement which is just, practical and final. Mr. Speaker, I must through you thank the House most sincerely for the way in which it has listened to perhaps somewhat uncongenial statements, and implore those who may sympathise with us to consider whether some such settlement as that which I have indicated would not after all be worthy of the great mandate that has been given to this Parliament of reform.

* : I rise for the purpose of making a few observations upon this Bill on behalf of the hon. Members with whom I am associated. The Labour Party approaches the educational problem pretty much from the same point of view as that of the hon. Member for West Ham North. We wish for sectarian peace in order that we may have the educational progress we desire. We welcome the statements that have been made by the right hon. Gentleman on one or two special grounds. We welcome devolution. A great many of us were never in favour of the abolition of school boards, and I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in his Bill there are any special provisions for London. I venture to hope that he will go further, so far as London is concerned, than he is prepared to go in other parts of the country, in applying the principles of devolution. I venture to think that until London has once more an educational authority directly responsible to the ratepayers the education of London cannot be rescued from the hands of the clerk and the official. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman also whether he proposes to apply this Bill to Scotland or Ireland, and whether there is any provision in the Bill to enable local education authorities to provide for medical attendance on a much more ample and satisfactory scale in the direction of under-fed and neglected school children? There is another point upon which the Labour Party is particularly interested, and that is that there should be much more satisfactory provision for training colleges for teachers. Such a provision, I suppose, is outside the scope of this Bill, but we should like to know that definitely. We welcome the abolition of non-provided schools and the religious test for teachers, though we regret that by a back-door that test is reimposed.

The debate, so far, must have convinced the right hon. Gentleman that his attempt to allay sectarian strife has failed. I have not the least doubt but that he honestly made the attempt. No one who knows the right hon. Gentleman would doubt that for a moment. But in this respect at the time when, as the responsible Minister, he proposes to sweep into the net of the State practically the whole of the elementary education of the country he has got to begin his task anew. We do not propose at this stage of the Bill to discuss in detail our objections to this particular proposal of the Bill, but at a later stage we shall ask the House to divide upon this question. Although I have not the honour to be formally or officially associated with the Party in power the right hon. Gentleman will not resent my appealing to him to allow this question to be settled according to the convictions of the House and not to throw the weight of the Government into the division. We concur with speakers on both sides of the House in considering that the arrangements made in this Bill will not settle sectarian strife. We do not accept the clauses dealing with religious education that have been foreshadowed in the right hon. Gentleman's speech. Surely it is perfectly evident when he speaks about non-sectarian, undenominational, or Bible-reading education—I do not care which expression he accepts as being the least offensive— when he talks about that, surely he must remember that there are large and important sections, even although they be not majorities, who do not accept that Bible reading education, because they consider that it is a form of denominationalism. In this matter the Roman Catholic minority has as much right to be heard in this House as a Nonconformist majority, or a Church of England majority. A very influential section of the Church of England itself refuses to regard that form of religious instruction as being undenominational. It tells us that that form of Bible reading, with the offering of a very simple prayer or the singing of a simple hymn, is rank Nonconformity, naked and unashamed, preached to the children. I am not saying that I agree with that. All I am concerned in pointing out to this House is that there is a section of the Church of England that says so, and we are bound to consider the conscientious convictions of a minority. But there are a great many of us who do not say those things, and who do not believe in these things, and who do not side with those sections. There are a great many of us who regard with profound regret the movement, which I am afraid is only too apparent in our public life—the movement of the people, turning their faces away from real genuine spiritual religion. I regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not courageously eliminated all this sort of sectarian and religious education so-called from his curriculum, because I put down to this mere formal skeleton of instruction in religion a very large amount of our falling from religious grace at the present moment. I oppose it not because I am a secularist, because I am not, and not because I am a Roman Catholic or a High Churchman, but because I feel the very greatest sorrow and grief when I find that religion is becoming so much a formal affair, so much a thing of the lips, so much a thing of mere outward conduct, and so little of the real spirit. I oppose any attempt to teach this skeleton of religion in the name of religion, and to bolster up the idea that it is going to secure our children in their allegiance to a religious creed, or to a church, or to a chapel, or to religion in any shape, form or method of expression. It is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Our opposition to this teaching is that from the point of view of its moral and spiritual results the so-called religious instruction which is being given in our schools has up to now been practically barren. It has had a certain disciplinary effect. Everyone who has served on a board of managers, as I have, or has taken part in the teaching staff of schools as I have, will undoubtedly admit that this religious instruction has had a sort of dis- ciplinary effect, but as a religious effect it has had practically none whatever.

I would like to put one or two further questions to the right hon. Gentleman. He has told us that non-provided schools are now to be taken over by the public education authorities and to be used for elementary purposes for some consideration which he has not disclosed. I should like to ask if the Education Department are going to lay down the basis of valuation, that is, to determine the value of the consideration to be paid for those schools which are transferred for special purposes from the trustees to the public education authorities. I should like to ask whether the Education Department will revise these bargains, and whether they will sanction them before they become operative and effective. He also foreshadowed that the trustees who hold these schools now, would on Saturdays and Sundays use them for any purposes they liked. That is what I gathered, but I do not know if I understood my right hon. friend rightly or not. I should like to ask, supplementary to that, whether the public, who are going to maintain the fabric altogether, are also going to have corresponding rights with the trustees? We know, as a matter of fact, that these schools are very often refused to us at times. Those who have been engaged in social work—entertainments for a charitable or philanthropic purpose, but mainly for the purposes of alleviating the condition of the district in which the schools are supported—have had to abandon many schemes because the rents charged for these public places are extravagantly high. That indicates the difficulty I have in my mind, and I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he proposes to give us—the public—a share in the facilities which he proposes to hand over to the original trustees of the buildings? I am sure the hon. Gentlemen who are associated with me agree with me in this matter. I do not believe for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman is going to bring peace by his four-fifths proposal. I cannot contemplate the working of the proposal. It may be that when we see the Bill some of our differences will be removed, but I am bound to say that, having followed the right hon. Gentleman as closely as I possibly could, and having attempted to make definite in my own mind the actual administration of the general proposals which he made to the House, the only effect that I can see that is certain to arise out of this proposal is a recrudescence of sectarian strife upon the field of municipal politics. There is a great deal to be said against the school board system because it invited the continuance of religious strife. I am afraid that this makes the same mistake as certain provisions constituting the school boards made. I cannot imagine anything that can be more provocative of religious strife than that the local education authority should sit down and consider schools to be handed over to sects by ear-marking the teaching. I think it would be simply to divide Nonconformists from Conformists, Roman Catholics from English Catholics, and all the various sects which have for so long been accustomed to range themselves one on one side of public life and one on the other. Moreover, what does the passive resister say to this? The position is much worse for him than it was before, because, so far as I can understand it, the fabric of those schools is to be maintained wholly out of the rates. The education is to be wholly denominational education. Not only as a matter of religion, not merely as a matter of making comments on the Catechism and the Prayer Book, but also, I understand, histories are to be taught to present certain religious views. There are Protestant histories and Catholic histories, and all this is going to be done out of the rates. Yet we are told that the Passive Resistance movement is going to be brought to an end. As a matter of fact, the position is much worse for the conscientious objector under the new proposals than it is under the present Act. That is how it seems to me at any rate, and I am sure if I am wrong the right hon. Gentleman will correct me. Then the teachers themselves are bound to be denominational. You are going to create a new class of denominational teacher. The teachers in the schools are to be pledged to denominational tests. [Cries of "No."] Well, if anybody has had any experience as a member of a board of managers of a non-provided school he must know that one is bound under such conditions to have denominational teachers. Since the year 1902 I have been a manager of a non-provided school, and it is perfectly evident to anyone who goes to that school day after day, not merely when religious instruction is being given but when ordinary instruction is being given, that the school with its pictures, with its whole atmosphere, and with the comments that are being made by the teachers upon history, or when ordinary nature lessons are being taught—apparently simple, undenominational lessons— it is impossible, I say, to go to that school without finding that the general purpose which the school is supposed to serve under the body politic is bound to come out in the teaching. If you are going to have a teacher in any sympathy with you, then it is an insult to a denomination to say that the teachers are not to be denominational. I think it will be a very serious grievance in this House if denominational schools are to be created and are not to be staffed, at any rate, by head-teachers chosen on denominational as well as educational grounds.

I think I have said sufficient to indicate to the House the line that the Labour Members are going to take. I think this whole question of religious instruction is so grave and so serious a matter that the House ought to consider it apart from any other portion of the Bill, as a sort of basis upon which the educational system ought to be built, and we propose to ask you to allow the House to discuss it and to divide upon it. Otherwise, so far as the Bill is a contribution to a more efficient education, so far as it puts the teachers on a better footing, so far as it brings more educational facilities within the reach of the children of the country, we are going to support it right through. Every man who sits in this corner of the House owes his education to an elementary school. There is not a single one of us who has ever been inside the door of a secondary school until able to get there by his own labour enabling him to pay the fees necessary to entitle him to enter the doors of such a school. We represent people whose children have no chance of education except that which is provided by an elementary public school system, and who, if the public school system is imperfect, poor, inadequate, twisted, and dwarfed by sectarian strife, have no other chance of being turned out upon the world as educated citizens. Naturally we take the keenest and the closest interest in this Bill. We will support it as an educational measure, and we shall try to remove those clauses which we think will make strife more bitter than it was before, and which cannot be accepted as a sound basis upon which an educational system may be built.

* : What I desire to say must lie subject to the fact that I have not seen the text of this measure, but from what I have heard from the right hon. Gentleman I must say that in the main I view this Bill as a very honest, a very skilful and a very painstaking endeavour to solve a very difficult problem. Notwithstanding what has been said by my hon. friend opposite, and by the hon. Member for North West Ham, in its main features I believe the Government will safely bring this Bill into port, but it will depend upon the extent to which the volume of moderate opinion in this House and in the country is able to resist the attacks of extremists from all parts. I propose to comment upon one or two of the main features of this Bill. With regard to the machinery for the local government of education, I lay the greatest stress upon getting the machinery on right lines. We are now giving local education authorities more power, and we shall in time give them more money; therefore it is absolutely necessary that we should get the machinery on right lines to start with. As I gathered from the speech of the President this Bill leaves the machinery substantially where the Bill of 1902 left it. There is a small concession in the way of devolution in the administrative county, but, as the right hon. Gentleman said, substantially he is not prepared to uproot the machinery of 1902. I would remind the House that that machinery swept away the great school board system and handed the work over to the municipal councils. I think that that was a most momentous leap in the dark, and in my opinion in many areas it has been fraught with very grave shortcomings. Take London, for instance; I do not think the House realises what is actually involved in the education of the children of London. In London you have 1,000,000 children and pupils, you have to super- vise 20,000 school teachers, and there is an expenditure of £4,000,000 of public money every year upon education. The educational machinery of London is a piece of machinery as big as all the educational system of Scotland, which takes 977 school boards to look after it. It is a piece of machinery three times as big as that which exists for the education of all Wales. What has been the result of the endeavour to hand over the education of London to the London County Council? In the first place there was chaos which would have been absolutely fatal and would have brought them clean on to the rocks had it not been for the exceptional capacity of the old school board officials. The whole system is now entirely run by paid officials. I am not making any comments or criticisms upon the services of the members of the London County Council; but an all wise providence has put a limit even to their capacity, and it is impossible for the London County Council as at present constituted to conduct efficiently London's education. Two years of purely official administration of London has cost £150,000, but at the close of this year it will cost £300,000. In the Daily News four days ago the Member for East Islington, who is a most thorough-going Radical and a Progressive member of the London County Council, stated that—

It is impossible to control education in Torrington in the north and Tamerton in the south from the city of Exeter. Take, as another instance, Glamorganshire. Glamorgan has been saying, since 1902, "We will provide no money unless we have control." See how the thing works out in the county of Glamorgan. There you have an area 900 square miles in extent with 600,000 of a population and 100,000 elementary school children. Here is a minute of a sub-committee upon girls' education dealing with 60,000 girls— sub silentio, and the Glamorgan County Council subsequently confirmed those minutes and they became the finding of a democratic community. Then there is the School Attendance Sub-Committee of the Glamorgan County Council and there the minutes give this entry— ad hoc school boards with power to supervise the whole of the education within their own areas. I think that would have been the right course for the Government to adopt. Of course, I sympathise with the Government in its disinclination to root up machinery only two years after its installation, and I will not ask them to do so. This is another heritage which has been thrust upon us by the late Government, and we cannot fairly ask the Government in such a short time to root up this machinery. I will, however, ask three things. In the first place, I would suggest that if any locality thinks the present machinery not effective, it shall be empowed to petition Parliament by provisional order for a reversion to the directly elected local authority for education, or if it desires for an increase of its membership of the municipal council to secure that education shall be continued upon democratic lines. In the second place, I would give them power to petition to subdivide areas, and thirdly, any local authority that desires to do so should be empowered by Parliament to pay the travelling expenses of the members of the education committees wherever long distances are involved. So much for the local machinery.

And now let me say a word or two about the dual system of provided and non-provided schools. I do not make any secret of the fact that I rejoice very greatly indeed that the dual system is to disappear. I also rejoice that all schools and all the managers and the teachers are to come entirely under the control of the local authority. That is the inevitable and direct consequence of the Act of 1902. That was a great educational reform inasmuch as it did away with the dangerous anachronism which endeavours to educate half of the children of this country upon charity, and I am glad that education everywhere is now to be a public charge. I remember that Dr. Temple warned the Government as to what would be the sequel to putting the denominational schools upon the slippery slope of the rates. The late Prime Minister provided a Bill which placed eleven-twelfths of the maintenance of denominational schools on public funds, and then he prepared a scheme which reserved eight-twelfths of the management to the trustees of denominational schools. Of course, that system could not be maintained, and the late Primo Minister probably knew it. To-day I rejoice very greatly that the inevitable consequences have arrived, and these schools having been put on public funds must now come entirely under public control. I am glad also that the rental has to come out of the Imperial Exchequer, and that the cost is not thrown upon the ratepayer. The burden of the ratepayer is intolerable already, and as time goes on I feel certain that we shall be compelled to raise a much larger portion of the cost of education from the Imperial Exchequer than we are doing at the present time. Education is an Imperial and not a local service, and therefore a much smaller proportion of the cost ought to be raised from the rates; and even that proportion ought to be raised as the result of a sliding scale which would equalise the amount to be raised in the poorer areas. Finally, on this question of the transfer of the schools let me say how grateful I am on behalf of the school teachers to the right hon. Gentleman for his statement that something will be done in a certain part of the Bill to safeguard the legitimate interests of the teachers whose schools will be transferred under this scheme. It would be a monstrous thing to leave a body of devoted public servants high and dry.

I will refer briefly to the interminable religious difficulty. By transferring the non-provided schools to the local authority all schools ipso facto become Cowper Temple schools. I do not think my hon. friend the Member for North West Ham understands at all what that means. If he does he would not have made the speech that he has made. What does it mean that these schools will become Cowper Temple schools? I speak of the hon. Member as a high denominationalist. [Mr. MASTERMAN dissented.] I cannot classify him readily enough for my purpose now, so I will leave him unclassified. High denominationalists say that it means thrusting the Bible willingly or unwillingly on everybody. My hon. friend the Member for Leicester put it in that way. It does nothing of the sort. That is entirely a mistake. I would not be here speaking up for it if it does. They say, "You must not thrust the Bible as the Cowper Temple clause does upon everybody, because that is endowing the denominationalism of nonconformity; and if you endow the denominationalism of nonconformity you must endow our denominationalism too." This is a very fallacious and quite a mistaken idea of the case. What does the Cowper Temple clause do? It is the widest form of local option. In the first place it thrusts nothing on anybody. It is left to the local authority to say whether there shall be any religious teaching or not. If it agrees that there shall be no religious teaching, there will not be any. My hon. friend the Member for North West Ham has got to go down there and convert his own people. Therefore, there is no compulsion. It is a matter for the local authority. In the second place if we decide for religious instruction this in- struction must not contain, as the President of the Board of Education has already advised us, any catechism or formulary distinctive of any particular denomination. It must be confined to simple Bible teaching. That is not all. In the third place, a parent can by verbal request have his child withdrawn from this undenominational Bible teaching, and the local authority is bound to provide secular instruction for the child during the time. In the fourth place the parent can send a written demand to keep his child away from the religious instruction altogether up till now, and send him somewhere else for religious instruction; but I understand that from this time forward a parent can keep his child at home and need not give the guarantee he has had to give up to now as to what the child is doing during the hours of religious instruction. What more is wanted in the name of religious liberty than a system like this? I will appeal to the different Parties in this matter not to push their irritating desire for a logical settlement. They are the slaves of more logic and I will appeal to them not to push their desire to such an extent as might make it impossible for the local authority to give Bible instruction if they think that is the sentiment of the people of the locality. I will appeal to the high denominationalists not to make a coalition with the secularists, because that would end in the Bible being pushed out of the schools, and I think that would be disastrous. I want my children to be taught the Bible. I think the elements of the Christian faith as revealed in the Bible sweeten and beautify life, and for this reason I desire this for my children, although I will thrust it upon nobody else. The real difficulty of the situation before us is the possible coalition of those who cannot get all their own way in the matter of dry logic with those who are distinctly against religious teaching and who will lightly indeed push the Bible out of the schools. That will be disastrous. The Bill extends the Cowper Temple system in the direction of giving facilities for specific denominational teaching outside the hours of the timetable and outside the auspices of the public authority by volunteer teachers, and in connection with which no compulsory attendance can be secured. With this I associate myself most cordially, and I think I may say I associate myself with the four-fifths proportion, although there is one point on which I am in doubt. I understand that in populous and urban areas where the four-fifths demand for facilities is to come into force the State teacher will be allowed to become the volunteer denominational teacher. I hope in this case nothing in the nature of a creed test will arise at the time of his appointment. I quite understand that circumstances are changed, and that now the local authority will appoint him and not the managers. The trustees will not necessarily be managers, and therefore the persons who will ask him to do this will not be persons who will prejudice his office or inflict any disability upon him. So far so good. I think it may be possible to run this scheme without imposing a creed test on the teacher. But there is a curious discrimination unless I am much mistaken. In all the other cases except the four-fifths schools in towns and populous districts the State school teacher is not to be allowed to volunteer whether he likes or not. I am not going to express an opinion on this, because I am in conflict with some of my personal associates regarding it, beyond saying that it is a curious discrimination. I hope we will be able to go into this more fully on another stage of the Bill. I foresee another difficulty. The State teacher or the Cowper Temple teacher, as I will call him, will in that case have the giving of religious teaching as part of his ordinary duty. He will be paid by the local authority; but, in the case where he is willing to become the denominational volunteer teacher, trustees who may have a large sum of money at their disposal from rental will be in a position to ask him to undertake the volunteer teaching and pay him a considerable sum in addition to his State school salary. I rather think that will give a very unfair preference to denominational teaching, but I will raise the question at the proper time.

As I rejoice in the abolition of the dual system bringing the managers and teachers of non-provided schools under the public authority, so I rejoice in the abolition of creed tests for teachers. So long as we were willing to superadd a voluntary contribution to the teachers' salary we were entitled to ask some qualification beyond that imposed by the public authority, but the moment we put the whole of the denominational teachers upon the public funds for every single farthing of their salaries we are bound to render them immune from theological tests. I notice with some concern that my right hon. friend made no reference to training colleges. I do not think it does much good abolishing religious tests if we do not deal with the question of training colleges. It is the fact that many young people desire to go to residential colleges where they get the domestic life, but four-fifths of the places in these training colleges are reserved, for members of the Church of England. I have known, and it is the greatest scandal, within my own personal history again and again a young person who has won a King's Scholarship at the end of six years' apprenticeship and become entitled to go to a training college, and who was only able to utilise it by becoming a confirmed member of the Church of England and a communicant; and then he would change his religion immediately he had done his two years training. That need not be challenged. It may be taken from me that it has happened, and I say that it is a great scandal, and no young person should be subject to a test of this sort after having won a scholarship. I do not wish to press the matter at the present juncture, but. I submit that if under this new system, which I cordially approve, and which I shall strongly support both in the House and in the country, we are going to continue to give State aid to denominational training colleges, then no King's scholar can possibly be refused admission on the ground of his religious belief. That seems to me to arise distinctly from the proposal to abolish religious tests for teachers. I sit down as other Members have done with an appeal to the House to discuss this difficult problem without passion and without sectarian bitterness. I have some little claim to make that appeal. I certainly added to the wearisomeness of the debates of 1902, but I never consciously added to the bitterness of those debates. Early in those debates I received, signed by I think every one or nearly every one of the nonconformist ministers in North Camberwell, a respectful, still, very firmly-worded protest that I was not attacking the Bill of 1902 with anything like the vigorous strenuousness they thought I ought to do. That is the nonconformist attitude towards my policy. As to the Church of England, I believe I am suspect in North Camber-well by the leaders of the Church, and I rather fancy there are some of them who think I am a pestilent fellow whom they would not trust with their cash boxes. In the last election a certain estimable gentleman doing good work amongst the poor in North Camberwell, a Roman Catholic priest, felt constrained by his conscience to go into the houses of the Irish section and take my portrait out of the windows and consign it to the flames, no doubt piously regretting that the time had gone past when he could consign me with it. That represents the Roman Catholic attitude. Sir, that is my claim to speak as a simple minded impartial educationalist. In this capacity I appeal to the House to call a truce of God upon this unhappy problem. Let us get on with the work so that the children in the schools to-day, and the citizens of to-morrow, may adequately steward the great national heritage which in due course will fall into their safe keeping.

The form of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was, as we should have expected, polished and, I would add, polite; but the substance of it lacked, I think, something of that genial urbanity which we always associate with the right hon. Gentleman. Perhaps that is inherent in the nature of his task. He had to put forward proposals which he knew must be distasteful to many of those who sit opposite to him; but he was unable, perhaps in his desire for brevity, to speak one word of tribute to the zeal which has been displayed and the sacrifices which have been made by certain sections of the community on behalf of the community. Those sections are the very sections who are bound to be displeased with the measure which His Majesty's Ministers have thought it their duty to submit to Parliament. The first observation I have to make on the Bill as explained is that it is not an Education Bill. There is no urgency for an amendment of the Act of 1902 so far as secular education is concerned. The Bill is simply a measure for regulating and modifying the extent to which, and the conditions under which, religious education is to be given in our public elementary schools. I am emboldened in making that statement because I have in my mind the deliberate and considered opinion of the gentleman who was Chairman of the Technical Education Committee of the London County Council. That gentleman's views were published in a book in 1904, in which he stated that as regarded voluntary schools the Acts of 1902–3 were not meant to create nor to alter the existing diversity, nor to establish any new test educationally. I am the last man to say that these Acts are not capable of amendment, even of large amendment; but this Bill is not an Education Bill. It is simply a measure for regulating and modifying the extent to which and the conditions under which religious education is to be given in our public elementary schools. How much of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was devoted to advocating what I can call the imposition, with a certain limited exception, of one form of religious education throughout the country? And the exception seemed to me to be not only limited, but arbitrary and invidious. In the course of his speech the right hon. Gentleman charged some of us, or some of those who agree with us, with having spoken slightingly of the religious education given in the provided schools, and which was given in the old board schools. In all I have to say I shall refrain from using one word which could hurt the feelings of anyone who has taken part in this controversy, but I am entitled to say, and it is my duty to say, speaking for most of my hon. friends, and certainly for considerable sections of the community, that the provision of religious education which now exists in the provided schools is in their opinion inadequate, and therefore unsatisfactory. I am very far indeed from deriding what is called moral instruction that is divorced from religious education; but I do not think it is enough, and millions of people in the country share that view. Yet in the Bill it is to be optional to any county council to give no religious education at all except moral instruction—the mere inculcation of laudable sentiments. One of the original founders of non-provided schools said that sentiment was but the wing of the soul, but what is the soul to do when that wing is tired? It is to be optional to the county council to say that the Bible is to be read and that no word of comment shall be made upon it. That is good as far as it goes, but will anybody contend that it goes far enough for millions in this country? [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh."] So long as broadly throughout the land there is another system of education people are not called upon to resent provisions which they think inadequate. Many children in our large cities may easily be overlooked by the ministers of all religious persuasions, however earnest, but they can hardly escape hearing or reading direct attacks upon the Bible. The child would be lucky if it was only led to believe that the Bible is a collection of books reflecting the philosophy and thought of the time— lucky if it is not poisoned with doctrines inimical to all religion. Under this Bill the facilities for correcting such influences as these are cut down. I shall refrain from criticising the religious instruction given in provided schools; I will not call it board school religion, or apply opprobrious epithets to it. It is usually referred to as teaching the fundamental truths of Christianity, or as giving undenominational instruction. Well, that does not meet the justice of the case. Mankind hitherto has failed to teach such fundamental truths without defining them and drawing deductions therefrom, and the deductions are the creeds round which all these battles rage. People think that religious instruction should be given through those creeds; and we cannot evade the difficulty that people in England are sharply and even passionately divided on the question of what religious instruction should be given to their children by saying that what is common to all the creeds should be taught. Members of the Church of England have claims which they think are reasonable, and which ought to be considered in any measure brought forward by the Government. Churchmen claim that the children of Church parents shall, when their parents so desire, have the Bible explained to them by persons who are able to teach conscientiously the Christian faith as it is held by the Church of England. We ask for liberty of conscience in this matter, and it is an abominable injustice to deny to parents such measure of freedom. I should have thought that those who claim to be the political successors of Cromwell would have been better able to understand what toleration meant. Cromwell said— burden on the rates regard was also to be had to the views of the parents in respect of the education of their children. It stated that it was open to any parents of whatever religious faith, in any district, who felt that there was no school accomodation for their children, to have a new school built and to get for it equal treatment from the State. Sir, this measure, as proposed to-day in Parliament, marks a great departure from anything which the State has attempted to do in this country for many generations. I should be misunderstood if I were understood to say that the Act of 1902 gave absolute justice in all places; but I say it gives rough and ready justice, if you look at the country as a whole. Justice in some places, Wales for example, rough and not very ready so far as the Nonconformists are concerned. In the midland districts, also in the great industrial centres, justice rough and not very ready. Then why not seek to amend the Act of 1902 in that respect, and give justice to all parts of the country, so far as it could be given by Clause 9? The Government have not attempted to amend Clause 9. They have torn up Clause 9, and have said: "In future no regard shall be had to the needs of the Church in the industrial centres."

Let mo say a word as to the facilities offered to the voluntary schools in the country. No matter how much money has been found for the institution of such schools, no matter how clear the trust deed may be as to the particular denominational education to be given in those schools, those who are now the trustees must either abandon the sacrifices that have been made in the past, or in order to get the pittance of two mornings in each week for religious education, must strike any bargain they can. That is one facility. Now look at the other facilities which are confined to towns only, or to populous districts. Only where the parents of four-fifths of the children of a school desire, shall denominational education be given in the future as in the past, and only then in a school which has been a denominational school. Is there to be no room for future extension of the legitimate desires of the Anglican churchmen, the Roman Catholics, and the Jews? That facility is to be denied them. This iron pressure is to be put upon this country to endeavour to mould it into one form of religion. That pressure is being put on by the Government of the day. The Anglican Church asks no less resolutely than do the Nonconformists and the Jews that in future her children may be brought up in accordance with the creed it is her duty to teach. I have refrained from criticising the religious education that has been given in the past and is now being given in private schools. It is enough to say that, according to the conscience of the vast number of people in this country, according to the vast majority of those who are not members of the Church of England, the religious education is inadequate and unsatisfactory. But whatever we may think, rightly or wrongly, of the religious education which it is now proposed to impose, the gravamen of our objection is that it is the State which is seeking to impose it. To that extent this' Bill is a now Act of Supremacy, and, with the exception of the limited and arbitrary means of escape which it proposes, the Bill is also an Act of Uniformity. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware of it or not, but the Government are resuming the task of the Tudors and the Stuarts. They are seeking once more to subordinate the religion of individual citizens to the supposed needs of national policy and to the convenience of the servants of the State. The proposed pains and penalties, I admit as we must all admit, are lighter than those of centuries ago. But they are substantial. The diversion of school fabrics from the purposes to which they were dedicated by trusts, some measure of confiscation, the infliction of special burdens, the offering of special privileges by a dodge— these are the special pains and penalties which the Government are imposing upon all those who care for the denominational education which they think their children ought to have. The pains and penalties are lighter than those in the days of open intolerance and naked persecution. The barbarity of the proceeding is abolished, but its injustice is undiminished. Against that injustice we now protest, and on every succeeding stage of the Bill we shall spare no efforts to avert that injustice in this Parliament; and if we fail in this Parliament, in the next we are determined to see that it is redressed

I desire in a few words to express the heartiness with which I welcome this Bill. I like it because it simplifies very much the local administration, and it simplifies it in the best way. We are now to have only one class of schools. Those engaged in practical educational work know how much difficulty now exists in dealing with the two types of school that we have at present. That will pass away, and the local authority will be able to deal directly with all the teachers and the administrative work. The discussion to-day has centred round the religious; question, with regard to which we are in a rather curious position. For in this matter we have two Parties who desire two diametrically opposite conditions. Many of those who object to denominational instruction, curiously enough, go to the opposite extreme. They say that because you cannot offer them every phase and form of denominational instruction they will have no religion at all, and they declare that because they cannot have denominationalism they must have secular instruction only. I think it is about time that we considered what is the opinion of the parents of the children upon this question. Do the electors who sent us here ask only for one of these two alternatives—either give us denominationalism or give us no religion at all? I venture to say that anyone who is closely connected with the work of education, and comes into contact with the parents of children, will find that they do not take either of those extreme positions. They take a much more moderate and common-sense view. They do not ask that their children should be made into theologians, and they do not want them to be taught all those subtle distinctions of creeds and dogmas which, if you polled the country, you would find that 90 per cent. of the parents reject, asking for simple Bible teaching in the schools. It is all very well for hon. Members to say that if you cannot have this you must have that, or you must have no religion in the schools. We have to deal with the ordinary common practical application of those views in the educational world, and we have to consider what it is that the parents really want. I think the popularity of the council schools is very clearly demonstrated by what has taken place during the last two or three years. Do the people want denominational instruct- tion or the simple Bible instruction of the council schools? Look at the record of school buildings since the Act of 1902 was passed. All over the country council schools are being built, and compared with them the number of denominational schools that have been built in the same period is entirely in- significant. That means that the parents of the children like the type of instruction which is given in those schools, and they like simple Bible instruction. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover said that the religious instruction given in the council schools was inadequate. But what standard has been sot up? We admit frankly that no elaborate theological system is taught in those schools, and we are thankful that that is the case. It must be remembered that we are dealing with small children of eight, nine, ten, and eleven years of age, and we do not want a theological1 system. All we want is a simple basis of religious instruction upon which the various denominations may work their own superstructure. I could understand the arguments of hon. Gentlemen opposite if we were teaching anything in the council schools inconsistent with or hostile to any great Church in this country, but no such objection is made. You say that this is not enough, and that it is inadequate. You do not say that we are teaching heresy or schism, or laying a foundation upon which they cannot build. Therefore the practical common sense of the average person comes to this: "I do not want my small boy or girl taught any particular dogmas, doctrines, or creeds; I want them to have simple religious instruction that shall be the basis of morality and decent, sober, upright life. "I think if we can give them that in the council schools, we are giving what the parents want. Is it not quite illogical to take up one of those opposite extremes? My hon. friend said that if you do not have every kind, you must have none. Is that logical? I suggest that if you allow discretion to your local education committees, and let them decide what shall be the basis of the instruction, that is a perfectly sound, fair, and logical position to take up. If we were to adopt the views put forward in favour of secular instruction only, and which have been advanced here to-night, if an indication went forth of that kind, I think that amongst the vast majority of the electorate there would be unrest and the profoundest dissatisfaction. Wherever I went during the election, I found that the people mostly desired to have simple Biblical instruction. It is no use trying to push these academic arguments too far. I feel quite satisfied that if we consulted the parents of the children we should find that they are not for secularism and not in favour of denominationalism, but that what they want is a simple practical Christianity based upon the Bible that would be the foundation of morality for children. I am very glad that this Bill has not allowed that heresy which I feared to come in, namely, the right of entry of denominational teachers into the council schools: I believe that that would have been entirely fatal to efficiency. It would have introduced the old pen system which divided the children up into different sections and would have interfered with educational efficiency. I am thankful that some very fair facilities are to be given for special instruction in the existing denominational schools. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover said that this Bill would stereotype the religious instruction given; but I think he has misunderstood the Bill, because there is nothing in it that would prevent people who desire any particular kind of denominational instruction from going to the expense of enlarging their schools, or building others, and renting them for the purpose of teaching their own particular creed or gospel. The fact that they are not building so many denominational schools since the Act of 1902 is the clearest indication that they do not desire them. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover said that as far as these facilities were concerned they were in future to be arbitrarily decided by a majority. One reason why I am so much attracted to this Bill is because it places the power in the hands of the people themselves. It is not as though the Free Church Council were going to devise the syllabus and apply it all over the country. What is going to happen? The Education Committees themselves are composed of sane and reasonable people, and they are to sit at a table around which will gather the clergymen, Nonconformist ministers, and laymen, and they will draw up their own syllabus, which will be adapted to suit local requirements. If a special type of in- struction is required that particular district will get the type which it desires, subject only to the conscience clause. (OPPOSITION cries of "No, no.") If you put into the hands of the people themselves the power to decide the extent of their religious instruction that is a sound democratic principle. [CRIES of "No, no."] Well, that is what I understand by the Bill. Anyone who has had anything to do with the working of a school must come to the conclusion that this religious controversy is purely artificial, and is created by outside people. I happen to be chairman of a committee which has 45,000 children under its care, and three-fourths of our schools are Council schools, and I never hear of any religious difficulty. I find the same state of things in other parts of the country, and the parents are satisfied with the simple instruction which is given. There is no boycotting or invidious distinction, and the committee do not know who are Churchmen or who are Nonconformists, and neither do the teachers. If the ministers and the clergymen and the ecclesiastical laymen—who are generally more fanatical than the parsons themselves—would only lot this matter alone, we should soon have a peaceful solution of the religious difficulty. I think simple Bible instruction is a wise compromise. We do not want the extreme or extravagant views of the hon. Member for North West Ham on the one side, or the views of hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Opposition side on the other. What we want is a modest compromise, and I think in this measure we shall find something which is in accordance with the wishes of the electors. If hon. Gentlemen will not attempt to play the part of professional agitators, and will refrain from setting up religious difficulties and leave those engaged in the work to deal with the parents of the children themselves, the smouldering fires of the religious difficulty will soon burn themselves out, and we shall have peace and progress in educational matters.

I believe that I was about the only hon. Member on my side of the House who took exception to certain parts of the Bill of 1902 which dealt with religious education. I did so on that occasion because I thought the Bill bore hardly upon the Dissenters and was unjust to them. This Bill, however, I am compelled to oppose on the ground that it bears far harder upon Churchmen than the other Bill bore upon Dissenters. I think before we adopt the First Reading of such a Bill as this we ought to realise the relation of the clauses and their possibilities, and see how they will work. We ought also to consider how they can be amended. I think it would be almost an outrage on the country and upon every Churchman and many religious denominations if this Bill passed unamended. May I state first of all that in my opinion the country remains religious? I believe that even bad men desire that their children should be religiously brought up. At least I found it so when I frequented the slums. I have sometimes been sent for by dying men who wished to consult me about their children, and who were desirous that their children might be brought up under religious influences which they themselves had either abandoned or had never experienced. How does the Government deal with this earnest instinct of the people? Remember who the people are. Half of them are spending a life under the down-right benumbing influence of the factory, they never look nature in the face, and I would say that religion is the only one good thing which is left to them. You say to these people, "You shall not have that religious teaching to which you have been accustomed; you shall not have that which you wish to have. Your feelings of reverence and devotion have been flowing along certain channels and possibly they can flow in no other way, but they shall flow along those channels no more; or if they do, they shall do so under most coercive and intolerable restrictions." You are going to supersede Anglicanism and Catholicism by local committees. Would you, sitting on the Government Bench, do that with your own children? Already there is no chance of any devotional exercises in the homes of many of these children. It is one of the disastrous and appalling circumstances of overcrowding which I have seldom heard pointed out that a man or a woman cannot conveniently say their prayers at home. Therefore the religion of the school, which is all that is left to them, is vital. You are going to supersede that to which they are accustomed. I do not at all object to the taking over of any denominational schools if the religious teaching which exists there is continued. I should prefer to see them taken over by the local authority, and, subject to a rent, I I should not object to them being used by other denominations. In the country areas served by those schools I should be perfectly willing to see free entry accorded to all denominations. In these respects the Bill requires amending. I should like to see absolute religious equality established in this Bill. You cannot establish religious equality by depriving Anglicans and Roman Catholics of their rights. You can establish it only by conferring rights on other denominations, and I for one am very willing to do it. I take it that the Government method of dealing with certain denominational schools is that they would allow them some extra facilities. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that if four-fifths of the children in a certain denominational school belong to that denomination, the teaching in the school will continue to be in the future as it has been in the past. I wish to do the fullest justice to Roman Catholics, so much so that if justice is denied to us I would vote for justice being done to them. The question is not one of the principles in certain schools, but of the principles in the whole community. If the Anglicans have over built their school accommodation and have only three quarters of the number of scholars belonging to their denomination, are they therefore to be deprived of all their schools? The country would not submit to that. There are 3,000,000 or 4,000,000 Roman Catholics whose schools are to be preserved because four-fifths of their children are Roman Catholics; but if there are 15,000,000 Anglicans, are their schools all to be confiscated because they have only three quarters of the children in their schools belonging to their denomination? I cannot see how the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education can call himself a Liberal, when he violates Liberal traditions in that way. He is not a Liberal. You do not want equality. You are aiming at dominance. You are establishing inequality. In talking lately with a number of Dissenters I gave them a formula, and asked if they would accept it. It is "equal justice to all." Justice to the Anglican, or the Baptist, or the Roman Catholic, to be defined by precisely similar justice conceded to everyone else. There was not one of the moderate Dissenters to whom I have talked who did not freely assent to that. I earnestly plead for this formula of equal rights for all—for the Roman Catholic, the Churchman, and the Dissenter.

I rise on behalf of all those with whom I am associated, the Members for Wales, to thank the President of the Board of Education for having taken power to sot up a Council of Education in Wales. I could not help thinking during the great speech of the right hon. Gentleman of the difficulty he had to contend with to educate the people of England. The right hon. Gentleman had a very different opinion in regard to the people of Wales. He considered that in educational matters Wales was worthy of Home Rule. In that way he has escaped a lot of difficulty. There is every reason to believe that the people of Wales will be united on that question. It is a very good augury that three weeks ago there was an important conference in Wales—a conference attended by three of the four bishops of the Established Church, the two Roman Catholic bishops, and the heads of all the Nonconformist denominations, and when the question was put to them whether they would accept the principle of the council in Wales to which should be relegated the management of education in the principality they came to a unanimous decision. As to the present measure I am one of those who take the view that we shall never have a satisfactory form of education so long as we associate it with religion. But in that I only indicate my own individual view, because a great number of my colleagues take a different view. All I have to say with regard to the measure is that the right hon. gentleman will do all that it is possible to do to unite the opposing interests in the great scheme foreshadowed to the House. I wish it success, and I believe the right hon. Gentleman is making himself a name by the great measure which he has sketched. Anyhow, it will, I trust, allay the great bitterness which has existed in the past, and in no part of the country is that more likely to be accomplished than in Wales.

It is impossible to discuss this Bill without going back and asking what has caused it. How is it that within so few years of the passing of an Act intended to be comprehensive we are obliged to deal with the matter again? The Act of 1902 is admitted to have had the result of giving to every child in every school in the land an equal chance which it had not before. But the Act was also conceived in the strong belief that the country desired that definite religious education should be preserved and maintained.

And, it being half-past Seven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned till this Evening's Sitting.

Evening Sitting

Middlesex County Council (General Powers) Bill (by Order)

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

moved that the Bill be read a second time this day six months. There was a serious principle involved in the Bill which very much affected the neighbouring counties. Under the Bill the Middlesex County Council took powers to interfere within the area of the Hertfordshire County Council. That was a principle perfectly new, and thoroughly objectionable, and on that ground alone he was justified in moving that the Bill be thrown out. The Middlesex County Council proposed to go for 1,500 yards into the county of Hertford, to take samples of water from their streams, and in other ways to interfere with the work of the Hertfordshire County Council. The streams to which reference was made in the Bill were at present under the control of the Thames Conservancy Board, and the Lea Conservancy Board, and their purity had always been safeguarded under the Rivers Pollution Act of 1886. It was true that provision was made in the Bill that the powers sought for by the Middlesex County Council should not be carried out without the written consent of the clerk of the Hertfordshire County Council, but it was highly objectionable that it should rest merely on the goodwill or otherwise of the clerk of the Hertfordshire County Council to confer these powers on another county council.

* in seconding the Amendment, said that he had no sort of objection to the general powers which the Bill sought to obtain, but the Bill contained innovations in certain of its clauses which he did not think were generally understood by the House. Within the last two or three weeks the Chairman of Ways and Means and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade had laid it down that it was very undesirable to take objection to such Bills on Second Reading. But in this case the Bill contained a provision which was contrary to the general law. His right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board was aware that the Rivers Pollution Act distinctly intended to give to the county councils of England the right to control inside their own area all matters to which that Act applied. By Section 18 of the Rivers Pollution Act an exception was made in regard to the area controlled by the Thames and the Lea Conservancy Boards. His county thought that it was rather hard on them that the powers given to all I other counties were withheld from the Hertfordshire County Council, simply because London drew its water supply from their district. The people of Hertfordshire objected to a neighbouring county council coming within their area to control in effect their local administration, especially when the Conservancies already were the Pollution Authorities. If that principle was once admitted it would be the commencement of a system which would have far-reaching effects. Middlesex had never complained to the Thames and the Lea Conservancy Boards that there was anything wrong going on in Hertfordshire, and the people in that county believed that they were perfectly able to manage their own affairs. He would be prepared to withdraw his op- position to the Bill if the Middlesex County Council would relinquish the provisions by which they sought to go inside another governing area.

Amendment proposed—

"To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words 'upon this day six months.'"—( Mr. Carlile. )

Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

* thought he could make out a very substantial case for allowing the Bill to follow the usual routine and go before a Committee upstairs in order that the clauses might be fully considered. There were forty clauses in the Bill, many of them dealing with matters with which it was very desirable to deal, and which had the support of all the local authorities in the county. The only clauses to which objection was taken were those relating to the pollution of streams and in which power was asked to go 1,500 yards beyond the county boundary to take samples of water to insure that for that distance the streams should be free from pollution. It had been said that this was exceptional legislation, but he would point out that exceptional powers were given to the Mersey and the West Riding River Pollution Boards for dealing with river pollution. Besides, the County Council of Middlesex were given special, powers by an Act in 1898 to deal with the pollution of the rivers and streams in the county, and as a result they had established a Rivers Committee and a special staff and department at considerable cost and labour. They had been able to do excellent work during the time they had had the power, and was it fair that this should be frustrated by pollutions in adjoining counties which Middlesex was unable at present to prevent? The House must remember the very large and populous urban districts in Middlesex, the health of which was dependent upon the purity of the water courses. While Middlesex had thus been alive to these dangers and active in taking measures to deal with them, Hertfordshire had done nothing. The town of Hertford had polluted the river Lea for a generation until now the water became inky black when stirred up. The fact was that the county of Hertford was half a century behind the times in regard to sewage pollution, and its methods were so primeval that a local authority in the neighbourhood of the nuisance allowed crude sewage to strain through osier hurdles. All that was wanted by the Middlesex County Council was to have access for 1,500 yards in Hertfordshire in order to take samples of water to see whether the streams were polluted or not, and to be able to stop pollutions which might be found within that distance. He ventured to think that in the interest of the great working class population in the county of Middlesex a sluggard and slothful county in matters of river pollution and sewage disposal, such as the local authorities of Hertfordshire had proved it to be, should not be permitted to object to the county of Middlesex ensuring that the river entering the latter county was as pure as it should be. It was only last month that the Court of King's Bench had remitted a special case, stated for the opinion of the Court, to the justices directing them to convict the local authority of Bishop's Stortford, on the information and complaint of the Lea Conservancy, for polluting the Stort (a tributary of the Lea) for allowing an impure and insufficiently treated effluent to pass into the river.

This was an instance of the manner in which Hertfordshire authorities viewed these matters, for the local justices had refused to convict though the offence was proved, and the district council's only answer was that they had negotiated with a view to make their system more effective. Well might the Lord Chief Justice remark, in giving judgment, that while the justices might have regard to the degree of pollution, the case could not be considered trivial when the sewage of a town of 7,000 inhabitants was concerned, the impure effluent from which was being allowed to pass into the river. He hoped that the House would send the Bill to the Committee upstairs, which would see to it that the county of Hertford would be protected from any injustice.

* took exception to the violent language which the hon. Member for Ealing had used in reference to Hertford and Bishop Stortford. The hon. Gentleman had shown that he knew very little indeed of the town or county of Hertford. The reason why those who represented the constituencies in Hertfordshire were opposing the Second Reading of the Bill was because it infringed a very important principle of local government. The Bill gave power to the county council of Middlesex to invade the area of the county council of Hertford and to look after business with which it was not directly concerned. The hon. Member for Baling had referred to the case of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board in Liverpool, but that was absolutely a different case. The hon. Member's attitude was the more surprising as he had a special reason for knowing all about this case, being a member of the Lea Conservancy Board, whose duty it was to prevent the pollution of the various rivers in Hertfordshire. The proposal of this Bill, as he had said, was an absolutely different one. Why did this Bill apply only to 1,500 yards; why not to 3,000 yards or any other distance?

* said he had been careful to point out that the 1,500 yards was for the purpose of securing that the stream should be pure before it entered into the county of Middlesex.

* said that the hon. Member imputed that Hertfordshire was not able to take care of the purity of the stream.

* said he had only to produce documents in his possession to show how lamentably behind the times Hertfordshire was.

* denied that Hertfordshire was behind the times. He quite admitted that as a general rule a Bill of this character should go upstairs, but this measure contained a novel principle upon which the House should express an opinion, unless the promoters withdrew the clause containing it. He wished on behalf of the county of Hertford to protest against the procedure which was being adopted.

said that in its main features the Bill was useful, desirable, and necessary, and he appealed to the House in the light of the more necessary business which was commanding their attention to give it a Second Reading and allow it to go to a Committee upstairs so that the microscopic differences between Hertfordshire and Middlesex could upon the evidence adduced be thrashed out. With great respect he thought that the Bill had occupied two much time that evening, and he was sure that justice could only be done to both Middlesex and Hertfordshire by allowing the Bill to go upstairs, and he hoped that that would be done without the House being put to the trouble of a division.

did not wish to intervene in this desperate dispute between Hertfordshire and Middlesex, but he pointed out the extreme difficulty that Members like himself who came from Ireland had in deciding upon a question of this kind. Questions of this sort ought to be settled elsewhere than in the Imperial Parliament. A discussion of this kind showed the necessity for Home Rule. He did not wish to say anything against Middlesex or to quarrel with Hertfordshire, but he re-echoed the statement of the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down that this Bill should be read a second time and sent upstairs, and that they should make arrangements to keep it upstairs.

Question put, and agreed to.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed.

Education (England and Wales)

Order read, for resuming adjourned debate on Question [9th April], "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make further provision with respect to educa- tion in England and Wales."—( MR. Birrell. )

Question again proposed.

continuing his speech, said: I ventured a short time ago to refer to the Act of 1902 and I claimed that it had great merits, that it gave an equal choice to every child in every school of the land, that it removed many of the difficulties of the Nonconformists and advanced the cause of education generally. The Act, however, I am bound to say, was open to attack upon various points, and what made it specially open to attack was the invoking of a rate, and many of us thought that in that regard we were embarking upon a slippery plane. But the chief objection taken by hon. Gentlemen opposite was that it did not sufficiently attack the parson, as they always had a hope that the influence of the clergy in regard to education would be ousted. So the cry was raised—how little ground for it can now be seen—that Nonconformity was in danger, that religious liberty was at stake, and that Protestantism was being menaced. There was a crusade up and down the country, and there is no doubt that this cause contributed largely to the great success achieved by the Party opposite at the recent elections, and that this Bill has been brought forward at the present time in answer to that imperious demand. We un doubtedly shall have an enormous increase of the burden of rates under it, as the buildings which have hitherto been maintained by their owners have to be taken over by the State, and a contribution is to be made from the Imperial Exchequer. At the same time, I am thankful to the right hon. Gentleman opposite for introducing this Bill, and for facing a very difficult task, which he has done, I believe, with a wish as far as he can to carry out the instructions which he has received. I am thankful that the right hon. Gentleman, whom I believe desired to be as impartial as he could, has not done away with religious teaching altogether. I am glad that the strong desire for it which exists throughout the country has been recognised, I do not depreciate the value of undenominational teaching in what are called the fundamental traditions of Christianity, but I maintain that if this Bill does not do away with religious teaching it lowers its effect and efficiency. Religious teaching will, I think, under the measure be seriously interfered with, taken out of the hands of those most qualified to give it, and pushed into a back place, as I understand it will not be given in school hours at all. Parents are already complaining of the loss of service of their children, and that grievance will be increased. Are they therefore likely to send their children half an hour before the business of the day begins? I regard this as a most serious blot upon the Bill, and I hope some arrangement may be made to meet this difficulty; otherwise I fear that religious teaching will become a thing of the past. Is there any necessity for the drastic treatment proposed by this Bill, and will the country, when they realise that it is to be applied to private school buildings supplied by private beneficence in which are being educated more than half the children of this country, tolerate it? The people are to be deprived of those buildings, for which they have made great sacrifices not only in the past but at a recent date; the money subscribed voluntarily for educational purposes by Churchmen during not a long period having been calculated at little less than £1,000,000. In removing the grievance which was said to be felt by Nonconformists the Government are doing a much greater injustice to a large body of persons who take a very earnest interest in this matter. I think the Church may claim honestly to have made sacrifices for religious teaching, and she feels that a provision that there shall be religious teaching for all who desire it, I such teaching to be given at a reasonable time and during school hours, will recommend itself to the feeling of the people generally. I think, however, that this measure will arouse a feeling of great antagonism throughout the country, and I am sure that the Government will realise before they come to the Committee stage that they are doing a great injustice which ought not to go forward.

* : It is re- markable how little has been said in defence of denominational teaching. The only really live question which has been raised in the debate so far has been whether we shall restrict moral teaching in public schools to secular lines, or whether the old s school board standard of religious education is to be made national. I should like to say, speaking as I do in touch with a large number of Nonconformist organisations, that this Bill is not regarded by us as a victory for Nonconformity, nor do we attempt to separate Nonconformity from the interests of citizenship throughout the country. We are not asking for anything different from that which can be claimed by the whole of the community. We are perfectly prepared to admit that in past times a good deal has been done for education by the Church of England, and by the Roman Catholic Church; but this Bill does not confiscate the property of the Church of England, and no injustice has been done by this Bill, which reserves the whole of her property. The utmost liberty is left reserved to her to raise an income by letting her buildings or by giving her power to sell the fabric. The income so derived will be available for payment of teachers under the facilities granted in this Bill. I do not know whether the Minister for Education has made it perfectly clear to us whether in the case of additions or extensions being required the cost will fall upon the local authority. The greatest point of controversy in this debate has been the question of the character of the religious education which it is proposed to continue. My right hon. friend believes that the greater part of the country desires the form of religious teaching as at present adopted in provided schools. It is not the Nonconformists who wish to drive the Bible out of the schools; for we believe that, under the present system, we do furnish a basis of fact—a religious scaffolding is provided which relieves the teachers of religion, whether in Sunday schools or other places, of a great deal of preliminary work. I doubt whether the spiritual vision accompanies such teaching; but whatever may be the spiritual effect or non-spiritual effect, it is some advantage to lay the foundation of Biblical instruction in the child, and to scatter the dry seeds, so that when the spiritual atmosphere arrives those seeds may break into newness of life. Are the children of the poor to be deprived of that idealism of the past which has so largely moulded the secular history of England, and of access to the highest literature and the purest poetry? If that be the general wish of the people in this country no Nonconformist who is true to his principles will deny the right of the secularist, the agnostic, and the atheist to protest against the expenditure of public funds upon Biblical instruction, as the Nonconformist to the sacramental teaching of the historic Churches. But should we be reduced to the secular form, I wish it to be understood that it will not be by the wish, desire, or action of the great organisation of Free Churchmen The Free Churches today speak with one voice when they say they are prepared to retain the Bible instruction in the schools and the common form of worship which is familiar to those who knew the school board system. Many Members opposite have seen the article in the Spectator in which the writer in serious words warned the Church j of England against letting it be supposed that they are not willing that the Bible should be handled freely in the schools of this country because it is a sacred book and should only be read by those who can properly interpret it. That is contrary to the practice of the English Church and the spirit of the Reformation. It would be a most dangerous thing to impress, for it would precipitate a change in the relation of the people of this country to the Established Church. The Minister of Education has, I believe, interpreted rightly the feeling of many Anglicans and Catholics, that they would prefer to have some religion taught in the schools than no religion at all, and if that is rendered impossible the fault will not rest with the Nonconformists. There are some things in this Bill that will require attention on the Second Reading and Committee stage. There are the special facilities which are to be given to certain schools where four-fifths of the scholars belong to a particular creed or Church, and where the parents are desirous that the teaching of the Church should be continued. The natural effect of this arrangement will be to perpetuate the dual system in a modified form, though, it is true, under representative control. It is a little inconsistent with the statement that there is to be no test for the teacher if the religious lesson may be given by a teacher in a school which belongs to the Church of England, the Roman Catholics, or the Jews. I suppose, however, the common - sense of the education authority, without making a test, would naturally persuade them to appoint one or more teachers belonging to the church of which the school is practically representative. But naturally, the tendency would be to canvass very much for those schools and to concentrate children in them. They would not be national schools in the ordinary sense, but schools in which one denomination or another would concentrate their children so as to obtain the special facilities and arrangements offered. Then it does not seem quite reasonable that these facilities should be given to only one denomination. It is too often forgotten or omitted to be stated that there are in thousands of parishes in England only one school, and that an Anglican school, in which the catechism of the Church of England is taught, but in which no opportunity is provided for the religious teaching of any other denomination. These are questions which will arise with regard to hundreds of schools in this country, under general parish trusts, in which the teachings of the English Church are given, but which have had large contributions from Nonconformists in the parish who, although they were not members of the Church, have given to the Church school, because it was the only school in the district. If the catechism may be taught, why not also Free Church doctrine? Taking the Bill as a whole, we feel that it is in accordance with the decision which was given by the country, a decision which was indicated before there was any controversy upon free trade or protection. The tide had turned and the elections were going against the Government directly the Education Act of 1902 was passed. In ordinary times Nonconformists are divided upon many political subjects and vote differently, in this matter of education they have given their decision solidly. The result of the election proves that they have power behind opinion. They do not desire to jump upon a prostrate foe. They only claim fair equality between church and church—we have gone a little too far now to accept mere toleration. The Nonconformists of this country during the last century have grown in wealth, experience, and in culture. Roughly half of the population of this country are adherents of some religion. Anglicans and Catholics on one side, and Free Churchmen on the other, about divide that half. The other half of the population are indifferent or hostile. But even these last wish their children to have the opportunity, which they themselves had, of some religious teaching, some familiarity with the Bible, leaving them when they came to maturity to accept or reject Christianity. This Bill is in the main just and fair, and it will with some corrections and comment have the support of the Nonconformists of this country.

I do not propose on this occasion to make any attempt to deal at length with the details put forward in the brilliant speech of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education. The hon. member for the Osgoldcross division has touched on one or two of those details. He has referred to the proposals granting special religious privileges where the parents of four-fifths of the children attending any particular school make a demand for special denominational teaching. I confess, without going into the details, it is difficult to understand what possible defence there can be for extending religious privileges where four-fifths of the parents demand them and refusing them to three-fourths, two-thirds, or a bare majority. I shall wait, however, to see what the actual proposal is before making any further comment. In the same way I do not desire to deal with the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman that he is going to sweep away one and for ever the imposition of the test for teachers. I fail to see how the statement as to the abolition of the so-called teacher's test is reconcilable with the concession to be made in some schools. But whatever that proposal may amount to I do not wish at the moment to deal with the details of the Bill. Let me how-over assure the hon. Member who has just sat down that the members belonging to the Church of England care comparatively little for the justice or injustice of the proposals to take away our property.

What we do care about is the interference with religious teaching. The main principle on which the Bill rests is the establishment of undenominational teaching. That appears to me to be a proposal marked by profound intolerance. I do not understand why this claim for the establishment of undenominationalism in the schools of the country —and it is compulsory—should be thought more tolerant than the compulsory establishment of any other religion. It is certainly the establishment of one particular system of religion. Whether hon. Gentlemen have realised what undenominationalism may prove in the future is another matter. It is, however, unquestionably a system of religion. It may be an ill-defined system. It may be a system never professed by any Church. But it is a religion, a body of doctrine; and hon. Members understand little about undenominationalism or any other religious teaching if they doubt the statement that to force upon parents undenominationalism is as intolerant as to force them to accept for their children the teaching of any other body of religion. The hon. Member for the Osgoldcross Division will allow me to point out that the speech he has just delivered unconsciously breathed the true spirit of intolerance. "We offer," said the hon. Member, "undenominationalism, and if you refuse that you shall have secularism." In effect he said that it shall be one particular form of religious teaching, or nothing, and in that is the true spirit of intolerance. It is no answer to say that upon that foundation any doctrine can be added, for undoubtedly parents who desire that their children should be taught the religion they profess are unfairly treated as compared with those who accept undenominational teaching. There were remarkable speeches delivered earlier in the debate by the hon. Members for North West Ham and Leicester, and with a large part of those speeches I may say I am in agreement. I heard with great pleasure and thankfulness their sturdy denunciation of the flabby religion of the day, their regret that absence of definite religion was so widespread, and their argument that undenominationalism was a poor weapon with which to combat the spirit of irreligion commanded my full assent. They said that to compel all children to be undenominationalists was intolerance and bigotry, and therefore they said, "We would have them all, secularists."That is not what they desire, but it is in effect what they said; and that, again, is a form of intolerance declaring that children should not have that form of religious teaching which their parents consider essential. That is the real vice of all schemes of religious teaching except the one that would give the religious; teaching which parents desire. That is the system denominationalists desire to establish. [Laughter.] Hon. Members laugh, but that is because they have not taken the trouble to understand the position of churchmen who do not desire—and let them clear their minds of this for once and for ever—this religious doctrine with the idea of proselytising the children, but because they desire education in the religion in which they firmly believe. We believe that the only way in which you can secure a religious education which will be satisfactory is that in which the children of all parents alike shall be taught the religion that their parents desire. I contend that we went a long way towards that scheme in the Act of 1902, and if this Bill was a measure to carry that scheme further and make it what we intended it to be, I should be a hearty supporter of it. I regret this Bill not only because it is intolerant, but also and mainly because I am sorry to be forced to the belief that undenominationalism is not only an unjust system but will be ultimately found to be an unworkable and unattractive system. It is, after all, only a half-way house, and half-way houses are extremely difficult to occupy for any length of time. It is the defect of all such schemes, and whatever you may think you can teach children unconsciously, no grown-up man, no person who has arrived at years of discretion, is satisfied with an undenominational position. What you want more than anything else is a teacher who genuinely and absolutely believes the religion or the scripture or whatever it is that he is going to teach. You must have men burning with faith if you are to obtain the best results with the children, and you cannot conceive any man burning with the faith of undenominationalism. The whole point of undenominationalism is that it is more or less colourless; but, the human mind will never be able to do without passion, which is the real requisite if you are to teach the children religion. I think too—though in this perhaps hon. Members will not agree with me—that the theory of undenominationalism is utterly foreign to the nature of the child. Hon. Members talk as if dogma or definite teaching are repulsive to the childish imagination. In my opinion no greater mistake could be made. Children live upon dogma. They have no other means of arriving at a truth. Children believe things because they are told they are true by persons in whom they have trust and confidence. In other words, the difficulties which grownup persons feel in religious truth and doctrine are not difficulties which the child feels. The child may have other difficulties, but never difficulties with regard to doctrine. That is not the way a child's mind moves. For my part, I do not believe that the attempt to teach undenominationalism will ever succeed in the long run. I know that the right hon. Gentleman said, and said with great force, if I may be permitted to say so, that the experience since 1870 has been very favourable to the teaching of undenominationalism. That is, I quite agree, the strongest argument the right hon. Gentleman has; but he has to consider two things. In the first place, the denominational system has been perpetually growing side by side with the undenominational system. It has been I perpetually brought into competition with it and tested by it. You are now going to sweep away denominational teaching. ["No."] Well, practically you are going to sweep it away, except in the four-fifths clause, which may or may not protect it. When you have done that you will have your undenominationalism utterly untested and unstrengthened by the rival system growing up by its side, by which the teachers, parents, and authorities have been able to compare the results. There has never been undenominationalism taught in this country as it will probably be taught in the future. Undenominationalism means religious teaching which avoids all dogmas distinctive of any denominational religion. I If that test be applied strictly under the hostile pressure of a Unitarian or secularist, for instance, how much religious teaching will survive? There is no security whatever that under the Cowper-Temple clause anything that can really be called Christianity will be taught at all. Do not think I am merely conjuring up a bogey with which to try and frighten supporters of this Bill. I implore hon. Members to look at the history of undenominational teaching in the United States, and they will find that over and over again it has become, either by law or practice, secularism unclothed and undisguised. It is because I believe that undenominationalism must ultimately lead us to secularism that I feel so strongly about the proposals made by the Government. We have heard the earnest and sincere speeches made by the hon. Members for North West Ham and Leicester; they have merely emphasised the arguments I have been endeavouring to put before the House, showing that undenominationalism is inconsistent with what they believe to be religious instruction, and it appears to me that their argument is from the point of view of undenominationalism absolutely unanswerable. To my mind, the issue before the House is whether or not religion is an essential and integral part of the education of the young. I think there can be only one answer to that question. I cannot conceive such a monstrosity as that of the children of this country being brought up without any religion at all. A child without religion is a child without the most beautifying influences of life. The right hon. Gentleman said, "Let us preserve any idealism that we can." It is worth a better name than "idealism." While listening to the right hon. Gentleman's speech, with his brilliant witticisms, not all of them in the best of taste, but all of them brilliant, and many of them just, I could not help feeling that, although the right hon. Gentleman realised the vast importance of the Bill he was introducing, his speech was not conceived in the tone most likely to commend it to those on the Opposition side of the House. I cannot help feeling that there must be many hon. Members, and, in fact, I know there are many hon. Members, on the Ministerial side of the House who have as earnest and sincere a belief m religion as has any hon. Member in the House, or any person in the country, and to them, even at this eleventh hour, I venture to make an appeal. You do not desire to deprive the children of this country of religion. Put from your minds the idea that our interest in this matter is merely the interest of a proselytising Church, and conceive of us for a moment as fellow-labourers in the cause of religion. We are prepared, at least I am prepared, to offer you any terms you like, provided you preserve religious teaching to the children of the country. I have no desire to put Nonconformists in a position inferior to that of Churchmen. I would go further. At this moment, when the cause of religion is so hardly pressed, I would be glad to give you more than you are entitled to, more than you can justly claim, if only you will leave Christianity as part of the education of the country. When this matter comes to be considered in the impartial pages of history I believe there will be something which historians will find it very difficult to explain, namely, that a great body of religious thought, comprising, as I know it does comprise, some of the most religiously minded men of this country, was yet largely instrumental in dealing what I cannot but believe will be a death blow to the religious education of the children of this country. I know you do not mean it, but I ask you to consider once again whether the course that you have I undertaken will not necessarily lead to the secularisation of education. [MINISTERIAL Cries of "No."] How are you going to resist the arguments that the secularists will put before you? Will not the position you have taken up inevitably lead to the secularising of the schools? I venture to make this appeal, but I fear it will prove fruitless. All I can say for myself and for those who agree with me on this side of the House is that we at any rate will be guiltless in the matter. We will do everything we can to prevent the consummation of this crime against the religion of the country, and, if we are powerless to prevent its execution, we will take the first opportunity we can to reverse it and to wipe its memory from the annals of the country.

As one who has worked in connection with different grades of education in London I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education for the broad and liberal principles which he expounded to the House, for the lofty ideals which inspired his speech, and for the graceful diction with which he clothed his thoughts. I hope that the Bill which has been introduced this afternoon may prove to be in some degree a measure of relief to those of our fellow citizens whose consciences have been offended by the Acts of 1902 and 1903. As was once said by MR. John Bright—

"When the law comes in conflict with the consciences of law-abiding citizens, it is the law that must be altered, and not the consciences of the citizens that must be forced."

I trust we are about to approach some amendment of the law which is to bring about that result. I cordially thank the right hon. Gentleman for foreshadowing in the Bill some promise that in future all the schools publicly maintained will be publicly controlled, and when I hear of intolerance from the noble Lord opposite, I say, as one who has sat on a public education authority, that we have felt deeply the intolerance of legislation which has compelled the ratepayers to support schools which they do not control and pay the salaries of teachers whom they do not appoint. When it comes to a question of providing one type of school for the whole of the country, I confess I was not quite clear as to some of the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman and how far that ideal will be attained by the Bill as the right hon. Gentleman has expounded it. I understood that an option will still attach to local education authorities as to whether they will or will not give religious instruction in the schools at all. Then, again, as to the proposals with regard to schools where four-fifths of the parents desire some form of denominational instruction, it seems to me that that opens a way to a departure from me uniform type of school publicly maintained all over the country. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman does not propose any change in the education authority. I was not one of those who urged or asked that the school boards should be done away with, but now that the education of the country has been made a municipal duty I hope that will not be changed again after only two or three years experience. The late Mr. Matthew Arnold said that public education must rest upon the municipal organisation of the country, and I am glad to think it does rest there now. Then again, John Stuart Mill used to maintain that in each local area there should be but one elective body for all local business, and not different bodies for different parts of it. And in 1870 the principle intended by Mr. Forster was that the municipal bodies should be the educational bodies, and it was subsequently that the ad hoc body was introduced. I fully agree, however, that some mode of devolution ought to be placed in the hands of education authorities dealing with large areas. I believe that nothing but good would result from some such form of devolution; but I am bound to say that the experience which has been related to the House of the work of the London County Council as an education authority is not in accord with my experience. I have been chairman of its Education Committee for the last two years, and I am bound to say it is not true to assert that the education of London has largely got into the hands of officials. The London County Council has brought in this, as in other matters, the same large democratic principles to apply, and I believe will achieve the same excellent results in regard to education as in administering to other great social wants. I was glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman proposed to introduce some clauses dealing with endowments and charities. It was hoped in London that many thousands of pounds would accrue to the local education authority in London by the clauses relating to this subject in the Acts of 1902, and 1903, but up to the present time something less, I think, than £10 has been received from that source. When I come to the religious aspect of the case I feel some difficulties. I have yet to learn a definition of what undenominational religion is. I cannot help remembering that Mr. Gladstone in 1870 said he did not object to a strict limitation of all teaching paid for, in schools aided or provided out of public money, whether rate or tax, to purely secular instruction. When he said that, Mr. Gladstone was certainly not speaking as one who desired secular education alone for the children of this country. Mr. Gladstone said of the solution of 1870, "It was in no sense my choice," and that when you are asked to include religion and exclude dogma you are asking to solve "a problem which hat not yet been solved by any State or Parliament." I do not know whether by those who speak on behalf of undenominational teaching the Apostles' Creed would be included, but if so, it would exclude the saintly Charming and the pure and pious Martineau, and are not the views of such persons to be considered in the solution of this problem? I attended University College school in Grower Street, which was contemned by its critics as a place where Jews, Turks, infidels and heretics were herded together and received no religious instruction. I may be a melancholy example of the result; but, though no religious instruction was given in that school, I received there a lesson in liberality of sentiment and respect for the opinion of others which I would not barter for all the precise teaching of the thirty-nine articles. It seems that we are to be particularly cautious in regard to conscience in questions of teaching, but not in questions of paying; we may collect rates, apparently, for teaching undenominational religion from Catholics, Anglicans, and others who object to such teaching. That is a problem which I hope will further engage the attention of the right hon. Gentleman, so that, while relieving the consciences of those first offended, the Bill shall not go too far in the opposite direction, but shall emerge from the Committee stage a true educational reform not conceived in any narrow or bigoted I spirit.

In common with other Members of this House I have not had the opportunity of reading the Bill which has been introduced this afternoon, but I may congratulate the President of the Board of Education upon the extremely lucid manner in which he explained the chief provisions of the Bill, so that every one who listened to his speech had the opportunity of understanding the essential and fundamental principles upon which it rests. In one of those short and crisp essays in the writing of which the right hon. Gentleman employs his few leisure hours, and which afford the greatest pleasure to all lovers of English, he has said—

"Nobody, I suppose, would call the English a religions people."

That essay was written before the right hon. Gentleman occupied his present official position, but I venture to think that the memorials which have been sent to him and the deputations he has received on this subject must have altered his opinion. Be that as it may, it is quite certain that the value of this Bill must be considered in reference to the conscientious convictions on religious matters of large sections of the British public. I take it that this Bill is the response of the Government to the pledges given by Members opposite at the recent election. They gave a large number of promises; and it is unfortunate that many of those promises are supposed to carry with them a mandate from the country. It is extremely difficult, however, when promises and pledges have been so profusely scattered to be able to say which of them represents the views of the people generally on any particular question. I think I may say, however, that the people of this country gave the Government no mandate whatever to take over and transfer to the local authorities the non-provided schools or to prevent the trustees of those schools from giving religious instruction therein in conformity with the wishes of the parents of the children. If a plebiscite had been taken on this particular question there would have been, I think, an overwhelming majority in favour of the retention of our denominational schools in the hands of the present holders.[Cries of "Oh!"] Well, I admit there would have been a minority of persons desiring to see undenominational instruction given in our schools, and a further minority in favour of secular teaching only, but I feel quite certain that the people of this country, whether they be Catholics, Protestants, or Jews, are distinctly attached to their denominational schools and desire to maintain them in their own hands. I take it that the fundamental principle of this Bill, in so far as it amends the Act of 1902, is the abolition of the dual system of our schools. This is a very important question. I need scarcely say that I personally do not approach it in any partisan spirit. I regard the subject of education as too vital to the well-being of the country to desire that it should be used as an instrument of political warfare. As the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford has said, if this Bill be passed we shall be entering upon a new era of religious controversy, more severe than any we have had before. Under the present system, which has existed from the year 1870, there is freedom of teaching in our different classes of schools, variety of method, and full opportunity is afforded to the members of different denominations to provide the particular religious instruction which they require in their own schools. The new Bill abolishes so far as separate management is concerned this dual system, and I take it from the speeches which have been made on the other side of the House that the abolition of this dual system is its chief merit and the main reason which commends it to their acceptance. It has been said that this change will give a more national character to our whole school system. I admit that the unification which has been suggested will simplify our educational system, but it will not on that account become more national. If it were so I fear that we should never be likely to have a national system of secondary education, because there is nothing which educationists regard as more important than the maintenance of the freedom and elasticity which characterises our secondary schools. I take it that a system is national if it is under State control, and under the Act of 1902 both these systems were under State control. In order that an educational system may be national it is not necessary that it should be under municipal control, but it is essential that it should be under the general direction of the State. What seems to me to be the most serious defect in the Bill, as outlined by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education is the removal altogether from the management of the existing non-provided schools of persons representing the trustees, than whom none more capable and better prepared to take a living interest in the work of the schools. As I understand the Bill both classes of schools will be managed by the local authority, and the representation of the trustees on the management of non-provided schools will cease. It seems to me to be a very grave responsibility that in order to secure unity in the management of the schools the vast amount of available voluntary energy in the cause of education which is found in the religious activity of the men and women of this country should be wholly and entirely sacrificed. I wonder if any hon. Members of this House have ever visited the schools under the direction of the Christian Brothers in Dublin, Cork, and other parts of Ireland, or the schools under the Frères Chrétiens in Paris and other parts of France. In these schools the teachers are not paid high salaries, and they have not passed highly qualifying examinations, and yet owing to the enthusiasm with which they discharge their duties the results of the teaching compare most favourably with those of any State Aided or municipally-controlled schools. It was Froude who said that the "Ten Commandments and a handicraft is a good and wholesome equipment to commence life with." I am afraid there is nothing in he Bill that will help to improve practical teaching in the elementary schools nor to encourage the teaching of the Ten Commandments. It must be remembered that the Ten Commandments do not represent wholly and entirely laws of conduct; they contain in themselves a very distinct system of theology and a different kind of theology according to the views of the teacher who interprets them. As a matter of fact the Ten Commandments are not given in the same words in all schools under different denominations. My own experience of education has led me to believe that educationally considered, the advantages so far as the training of children is concerned, are in favour of that given in our voluntary schools. By education, however, I mean something more than book-learning or instruction as specified in any Government code; I include all the influences brought to bear from different sources upon the children during the period of their school life. And in view of this wider meaning of the word I have no hesitation in saying that I would gladly exchange a certain amount of history, geography, and arithmetic for the kindly and genial interest which the managers of the voluntary schools have always shown in the progress of the pupils and the welfare of the teachers, and the additional light and culture which their presence brings into the schoolroom. All these beneficent influences exercised by managers are to be sacrificed in order to obtain uniformity of control. What is to be gained by it? Is there anything in the Bill to show that under the new management the education to be given either in our provided or our non-provided schools will be better than it is at present? I can see no reason for supposing that the education will in any way be improved. One of the advantages claimed is the abolition of religious tests. For my own part I think that this question of religious tests has been used by the electors of this country very much in the same way as the cry of the big loaf and the little loaf and the question of Chinese labour. Can it be said for one moment that the arrangement under which teachers are appointed in non-provided schools involves a religious test in the same sense as that implied in speaking of the religious tests which formerly existed in connection with admission to the older Universities, and to other institutions. What I understand to have taken place in voluntary schools is this. The managers recognising that the great majority of the children in the schools belong to a particular religious denomination, have thought that it was in the interests of the children that the head teacher appointed should be in general sympathy with the children whom he or she has had to teach. Surely it is the duty of the managers, in considering the applications for the appointment of teachers, to take note of all the qualifications which the candidates may possess, and amongst those qualifications the fact that the teachers are of the same religious denomination as the children whom they are going to instruct is a very important factor. I take it that in those schools in which special facilities are to be offered the religion of the parents will be taught to the children. If so, surely it is better that that religion should be taught thoroughly, and it is generally recognised that religion cannot be taught except by those who possess it. For these reasons it is desirable, if possible, that the religion of the teachers should be that of the children whom they have to instruct. This I take it is all that is involved in the question of religious tests. I am not in a position to deal with the financial considerations which have been brought forward in connection with the proposals of this Bill: we shall be better able to deal with them later on. I believe from what I gathered from the President's speech that the Bill contains many proposals of a non-contentious character, some of which hon. Members on this side of the House will be able to agree with. What I feel, however, is that from an educational point of view nothing is gained by the proposals which are contained in the Bill, and I think, having regard to the difficulties connected with the religious question it would have been far better to have given a further trial to the Act of 1902. Many of the difficulties were gradually adjusting themselves, and I fear that, if the grievances of one Party are likely to be removed by the operation of this Bill, it will create grievances in other sections of the community which will more than counterbalance the advantages it is supposed to confer.

* : There is no small responsibility attaching to any hon. Member of this House who attempts to discuss a Bill so full of problems as the one now before us without having had the opportunity of seeing the provisions in print, and therefore in rising to give this measure my support I desire to say that I am dealing rather with the general aims than with matters of detail. I feel that there is one tribute which ought to be paid to my right hon. friend which I do not think has been mentioned during the course of the debate. It is a tribute to the great patience and care with which he has received opinions from all sorts and conditions of men and women during the past three months. I think, Sir, that in receiving these deputations and hearing the various opinions which have been placed before him he has perhaps done himself great service, and I am sure he has done the cause of education great service, and I feel that the patience he has exhibited is worthy of commendation. I am sure that now Job and his friends will take second place in the history of the world in comparison with the right hon. Gentleman's conduct in connection with this matter. The admirable exposition with which the right hon. Gentleman opened his remarks enables us to understand what the main provisions of the Bill are, and I feel that my right hon, friend has in no unmistakeable way understood the verdict of the country, and has endeavoured so far as he could to comply with that verdict. Personally, I am not afraid of secular education if it is, as has already been said, to be the outcome of this discussion, but I may say that from a very long experience of school work, both secular and religious, and from some large knowledge of the opinions of the parents of this country, I cannot at all agree with the statement that parents desire that the Bible should be shut out from the schools. What the country has asked for is not an Amendment, but an entire reversal of policy in some particulars. It is said that the pendulum has swung too far, but if we look at the position which the right hon. Gentleman has had to deal with, and how he proposes to deal with it, we shall find that he has not allowed the pendulum to swing too far. There are some particulars in which some of us would desire it should swing a little further. There is no doubt that the country demanded a uniform system in regard to all public elementary schools. We cannot have a truly national system unless it is uniform, and this uniform system must be of such a nature as to destroy the dual system which has been in existence for a great many years. The Bill professes to give complete public control as against the present partial and unfair system of management of our schools. The Bill frees teachers from religious tests, and we cannot imagine that a great public service like education should I be in the hands of a public authority, and at the same time demand religious tests for civil servants. I confess that I have listened with some surprise to the description of these tests given by the hon. Member for London University, for that certainly, is not the kind of religious tests which are practised, or the conception which the public have of them. The hon. Member is also opposed to allowing, by permission of the local authority, Bible teaching as against the sectarian system in one half of the schools of the nation. I think this Bill meets the demands of the nation in a very fair and admirable way. What will those who support the existing system do? They come to this House and ignore the opinions of the nation so abundantly expressed at the recent election. Many hon. Members have received petitions professedly coming from the parents, but a great majority of them were signed by women, demanding that the present system of education should be absolutely maintained. This, I am quite sure, hon. Members generally must admit is an impossible position for the House to assume in face of the opinion expressed by the country. The way in which this question was dealt with in 1902 put us back to the position prior to 1870 so far as civil and religious liberty was concerned. I am sure there is no disposition on the part of the Government or on the part of hon. Members of this House who feel strongly in the matter to demand reprisals. What we want is justice. I have been surprised to hear again and again in this House that the proposals in this Bill are provisions to satisfy the Nonconformists. As a Nonconformist I claim nothing except in my position as a citizen, and whatever I have a right to as a citizen I have no less or greater right to obtain as a Nonconformist. Therefore, it is as a citizen that I stand here and plead that this Bill is based upon justice. How does the right hon. Gentleman meet these demands in regard to the buildings. There is no disposition to confiscate property. When the conditions come to be examined I think it will probably be felt that the owners of schools have been dealt with most liberally. The cost of acquiring these schools or of building schools in their place has been greatly exaggerated, and I hope the House will not be deterred by financial considerations from dealing with this question in such a thorough manner as the needs of education require. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has been able to secure £1,000,000 for acquiring these schools and for building others. We have some 3,000,000 children to provide for, or about half of the children of the nation. In the last twenty-five years we have provided for about one-half, and the children to be provided for now are chiefly in the rural districts, and the late Prime Minister once estimated the cost at not more than £7 per head. That would work out at something over £20,000,000 which could be borrowed upon liberal terms and would certainly not cost more than £1,000,000 a year even if the whole of these schools had to be rebuilt. As to public control, one would like to know more how it is to be developed before saying that it will accomplish all that is desired. The principle of devolution, I hope, will be adopted not in a partial, but a general sense. This will be necessary if it is to meet the needs of the administration of this measure, and especially if it is to re-enlist the interest of parents. I desire to refer to the admirable speech, both in tone and temper, made by the noble Lord opposite. I am sure that that speech reminded the older Members of this House of one of its most brilliant ornaments whom we miss in these debates—I refer to the noble Lord's brother, Lord Hugh Cecil, who, however much we may differ from him, always dealt with this subject upon the highest possible level. The difficulty I have in arguing this question with the noble Lord is, I fear, that we have nothing in common with him in regard to the basis of religion or spiritual life. It seems to me that he argues religion as divorced from the Bible. [OPPOSITION cries of "Oh, oh!"] Yes, and I do not think he is alone in so doing. There are many authorities to justify that statement. We regard what the noble Lord calls religion as more or less ecclesiasticism and not the true spiritual religion which we feel no State can touch, and with which no State ought to interfere in any shape or form. The noble Lord put a question to Members on this side of the House "Do you think religion an essential part of education?" Of course we do. There are many Members on this side of the House who give a great deal of their time to the personal work of the religious instruction of the young. If I may make a personal allusion, I have been engaged for fifty years in this work, and therefore do not think lightly of religion as part of education, but what I do contend is that religion as such has no right to be taught, and cannot be taught, by the State. Undenominational religion, which has had so many sneers cast upon it in previous education discussions in this House, is in our judgment simply a question as to whether the Bible should be excluded from the schools, or have a place in the schools along with other books from which children may learn. If the Bible alone is likely to do children harm it had better be excluded from the schools altogether, but we feel that there is no such risk whatever. There is no reason why the Bible should be the one Book which the State should say shall not be introduced into the schools for reading by the children with such simple comments upon it as the teacher can give free from the ecclesiastical influences of the clergy of all denominations and any fear of proselytising. I cannot myself understand why a child should be taught that Julius Caesar lived and not that David lived. I cannot understand why a child may learn Homer, and not the Bible. Surely the Bible is at least the oldest literature in the world, and contains the highest standard of ethics. We say that the reading of the Bible is an invaluable adjunct to the education of the child. Therefore, while we agree with definite religious instruction we say that such instruction has no right in a State school. We have heard and shall hear a great deal about the rights of parents. I contend that parents have no rights in this respect. Where did the parent get the right to make me pay for teaching that salvation comes through the sacraments, and these through only one Church? This claim is a new one. There have been 8,000 villages where, whatever their rights, parents have had no opportunity of carrying them out, and the Church has said that the parents must either have the religion which they taught in the schools or no religion at all so far as the school was concerned. I therefore contend that this claim of right on the part of the parent is not a legitimate claim, and so far as the State schools are concerned cannot be maintained. Our Anglican and Roman Catholic friends have a perfect right to say that their children shall have this teaching, and I am sure that they will see that they have it. We, as Noncom-conformists, do not think less of this specific teaching than those denominations to whom I have referred, but we take other means of giving it, and we save that the State cannot go further than the right hon. Gentleman has done in his Bill. There are as many children in the Sunday schools of the land to-day as in the public elementary schools. Surely the parents would discharge their duties in regard to religious teaching when specific teaching could not be given in the public schools. I cannot conclude without thanking my right hon friend not only for the provisions of the Bill, but for the noble sentiments he gave utterance to in asking leave to introduce it. I venture to say, while not pledging myself to every detail of the Bill, that the right hon. Gentleman has produced a Bill which cannot be called in every sense an education Bill, because it is to remove difficulties and obstacles which are at present placed in the way of education, and I believe he will thoroughly succeed in that object, and in so doing he will have the support of the country behind him. Then I hope he will go on to deal with the most important question of our training colleges. While our training colleges are subsidised to the large extent they are by public funds, and while a test for teachers remains, we shall have very great difficulty in this matter. I hope also that secondary education will have the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. The first thing to be done is to remove difficulties out of the way, so that the education of this nation may have the free course which it would have had but for the religious obstacles which have stood in the way.

I think that no advantage would arise from my entering any further into the details of the Bill than I have already done. It has been referred to as not being an Education Bill, and no doubt the first part of it, which I felt it my immediate duty to ex- plain, is perhaps open to that imputation; but the second part, which deals with educational endowments, and the third part, which contains, I think, some very valuable educational provisions, will redeem the Bill from this charge when its various clauses come to be considered. I quite agree that the measure requires very careful study and consideration by persons whom its clauses very closely affect, and I think the best thing we can do is to allow it to be introduced, so that it may find its way into the hands of the printer as quickly as possible and be circulated among Members at all events on Wednesday next. The Easter holidays will soon be upon us, and the Bill will then receive the attention which it most certainly deserves. I think the Bill contains provisions which require to be looked at very carefully all round, and I shall be surprised if, when those provisions are looked at, a great many persons who are deeply interested in religious education in the country districts take a slighting view of the opportunities afforded them of teaching catechetically their definite religion as frequently in the week as they have over been in the habit of doing. I think they will find, both in the council schools and in the transferred voluntary schools, full opportunities of teaching the children the religion of their parents. I listened to the speech of the noble Lord the Member for East Maryle-bone with the greatest attention. I share the regret expressed by my hon. friend that the noble Lord's brother is not by his side. I myself, at all events, do not wish the Bill to escape searching criticism, and no one could apply that more thoroughly from their point of view than the noble Lord and his brother, who is unfortunately for the present excluded from our debates. The noble Lord spoke of our forcing some now religion down the throats of parents who object to it. No Government could do anything of the kind. The whole basis of the Bill rests upon the assumption, which I believe to be a just one, that the great Protestant community of the country approve of the kind of religious teaching now given, whether in the council schools or the non-provided schools, I believe that that instruction is consonant with their wishes, and that any Government would be fools indeed if they attempted to force upon the parents of the country a religious instruction to which they were opposed. I shall circulate the Bill certainly by Wednesday, and I hope it will be found by Members on all sides that, whether they agree with it or not, it is an honest attempt to deal with a very great difficulty. I have received many deputations, but the one that affected me most closely was one from the Primitive Methodists. These persons are not among the high and mighty. They represent the working classes, and they all live in village districts. Their communicants number 200,000, and their attendants at least 400,000. They have chapels in 4,000 villages; but in only 850 villages is there any school but that of the Church of England for their children to go to. They did not speak with animosity towards establishments, nor were they animated by the spirit of political dissent; but they put before me a case which has been constantly admitted, but to moot which no attempt has been made on the floor of the House. Now the fortunes of Parliament have given this opportunity, and I think the Government are wise to avail themselves of it. This grievance ought to be removed as speedily as possible, and I believe that it can be done without substantial injury to the religious feelings of the community or to the opportunity of all Churches and denominations to give the children of their members definite, precise instruction in the creed of their fathers.

I rise to make only two remarks. The Party to which I belong do not propose to offer any opposition to the introduction of the Bill, but that must not be taken as expressing any approval of the measure, which embodies an unjustifiable attack on the voluntary school system. I hope the Second Reading will not be taken until there has been full opportunity of considering the measure.

indicated assent.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr.

Birrell, Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and MR. Lough.

Education (England and Wales) Bill

"To make further provision with respect to Education in England and Wales," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, April 24th, and to be printed. [Bill 160.]

Post Office (Money Order) Bill

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

[Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

immediately moved to report progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."—( Mr. T. L. Corbett. )

said that the Bill had been discussed on the Second Reading and no great change was contemplated by its provisions.

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Rt HnSirAlex. F.

Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim, S.)

Nield, Herbert

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Doughty, Sir George

Rawlinson, John Frederick P.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Fell, Arthur

Remnant, James Farquharson

Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O

Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

Starkey, John R.

Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.

Forster, Henry William

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)

Balcarres, Lord

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Younger, George

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hervey, F.W.F(Bury S. Edm'ds.

Bull, Sir William James

Hunt, Rowland

TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—Mr.T. L. Corbett and Mr. Claude Hay..—Mr.T. L. Corbett and Mr. Claude Hay.

Carlile, E. Hildred

Long, Rt. Hn Walter(Dublin, S.)

Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C'.W.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Meysey-Thompson, Major E C.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Cawley, Frederick

Evans, Samuel T.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cheetham, John Frederick

Everett, R. Lacey

Adkins, W. Ryland

Cherry, R. R.

Ferens, T. R.

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Fuller, J. M. F.

Agnew George William

Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)

Fullerton, Hugh

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Clough, W.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Glendinning, R. G.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Gooch, George Peabody

Barnes, G. N.

Collins, Sir Wm. J(S.Pancras, W

Grant, Corrie

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Cooper, G. J.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Beauchamp, E.

Corbett, C.H (Sussex, E Grinst'd

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Bell, Richard

Cory, Clifford John

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rt

Cowan, W. H.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis

Benn, W(T'w'r Hamlets, S. Geo.

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)

Bennett, E. N.

Cremer, William Randal

Harmsworth, RL(Caithn'ss-sh

Berridge, T. H. D.

Crooks, William

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Bertram, Julius

Cullinan, J.

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Billson, Alfred

Davies, David(Montgomery Co.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Black, Arthur W.(Bedfordshire

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Hayden, John Patrick

Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Hedges, A. Paget

Bowerman, C. W.

Dickinson. W.H(St. Pancras N.

Hebert, Norval Watson

Brace, William

Dobson, Thomas W.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Brigg, John

Duckworth, James

Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon., S.)

Bryce, J.A.(Inverness Burghs)

Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)

Higham, John Sharp

Burnyeat, J. D. W.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Buxton, Rt. Hn Sydney Charles

Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)

Hooper, A. G.

Byles, William Pollard

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N

Cairns, Thomas

Edwards, Frank (Radnor)

Horniman, Emslie John

Caldwell, James

Elibank, Master of

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Causton, Rt. Hn Richard Knight

Essex, R. W.

Hudson, Walter

rose to move an Amendment of which he had given notice.

said the Question before the Committee was the Motion to report progress.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 30; Noes, 210. (Division last No. 45.)

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Moss, Samuel

Seely, Major J. B.

Hyde, (Clarendon

Newnes F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)

Idris, T. H. W.

Nicholls, George

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Illingworth, Percy H.

Nicholson, Charles N(Doncast'r

Simon John Allsebrook

Jackson, R. S.

Norman, Henry

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Jardine, Sir J.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Spicer, Albert

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Nuttall, Harry

Stanger, H. Y.

Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a

O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh.)

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Stuart, James (Sunderland)

Kelley, George D.

O'Doherty, Philip

Sullivan, Donal

Kincaid-Smith, Captain

O'Malley, William

Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.)

Laidlaw, Robert

Paul, Herbert

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Lamont, Norman

Paulton, James Mellor

Thomasson, Franklin

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid

Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)

Thompson, J.W.H(Somerset, E

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich

Philipps, Col. Ivor(S'thampton)

Toulmin, George

Levy Maurice

Plilipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Lewis, John Herbert

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Verney, F. W.

Lough, Thomas

Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)

Walters, John Tudor

Lupton, Arnold

Priestley, W.E.B(Bradford, E.)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent

Lyell, Charles Henry

Raphael, Herbert H.

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Rea Russell (Gloucester)

Wardle, George J.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Rea, walter Russell (Searboro')

Waterlow, D. S.

Macpherson, J. T.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Mac Veagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.

Rees, J. D.

While, George, (Norfolk)

M'Callum, John M.

Renton, Major Leslie

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Richards, Thomas(W.Monm'th

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Maddison, Frederick

Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'n

Wilkie, Alexander

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Rickett, J. Compton

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Mansfield, H.Rendall (Lincoln)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth]

Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Williamson. A (ElginandNairn]

Marnham, F. J.

Robinson, S.

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

Massie, J.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Winfrey, R.

Micklem, Nathaniel

Rowlands, J.

Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk, Mid

Montagu, E. S.

Runciman, Walter

Montgomery, H. H.

Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—Mr.George Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease..—Mr.George Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

Mooney, J. J.

Scott, A.H.(Ashton-und.-Lyue)

Morrell, Philip

Sears, J. E.

Morse, L. L.

Seaverns, J. H.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Seddon, J.

And, it being after Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report progress; to sit again to-morrow.

Business of the House (Procedure)

Standing Order No. 47 rend as followeth:—Two Standing committees shall be appointed for the consideration of all Bills relating to Law and Courts of Justice and Legal Procedure, and to trade, shipping, and manufactures, which may by order of the House in each case, be committed to them; and the procedure in such Committees shall be the same as in the Select Committee, unless the House shall otherwise order; provided that strangers shall be admitted, except when the Committee shall order them to withdraw; and the said Committees shall not sit after a quarter past two of the clock whilst the House is sitting, without the order of the House: provided also that any notice of Amendment to any clause in a Bill which may be committed to a Standing Committee, given by any hon. Member of the House, shall stand referred to such Committee; provided; also that twenty be the quorum of such Standing Committees.

And amended in line 7, by leaving out the words "a quarter past two," and inserting the word" three, "instead there of.—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman. )

Ajourned at ten minutes after Twelve o'clock.