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Commons Chamber

Volume 155: debated on Wednesday 11 April 1906

House of Commons

Wednesday, April 11, 1906

The House met at Two of the Clock.

Private Bill Business

Essex and Suffolk Equitable Insurance Society Bill [Lords]

Read a second time, and committed.

Private Bills, Etc

Ordered, That Standing Orders 39,128, and 230 be suspended, and that the time for depositing Petitions and Memorials against Private Bills, or against any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, and for depositing duplicates of any Documents relating to any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, also for depositing at the Private Bill Office all Documents relating to any Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the Recess.—( The Chairman of Ways and Means. )

Dover Harbour Board Bill [Lords]

Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the third time.

Petitions

Coal Mines (Eight Hours) Bill

Petitions in favour; from Blackheath Staffordshire); and Rowley Regis; to lie upon the Table.

Diseases of Animals Act (1896) Amendment Bill

Petition from Wigan, in favour; to lie upon the Table,

Liquor Traffic Local Veto

Petition from Cathays, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.

Local Authorities (Qualification of Women) Bill

Petitions in favour; from East Finsbury; and London; to lie upon the Table.

Public Elementary Schools (Religious Teaching)

Petitions against alteration of Law; Aller (two); Alton Barnes and Alton Priors (two); Aveley; Appleton; Ardwick; Astley; Aston by Stone; Bedale (two); Beer Crocombe (two); Bethnal Green (two); Bilsdale Midcable; Blackburn (three); Blockley (two); Boconnoc; Bonchurch (two); Braddock; Bradford; Brightling; Broadhempston (two); Buckingham; Burnham Deepdale; Carleton Rode (two); Carlton le Moorland; Carmarthen; Chaddleworth; Chelsea; Claydon cum Akenham; Cold Kirby; Compton Martin (two); Cricklade; Cropredy; Croydon; Darlington (two); Darwen (three); Dicklesburgh (two); Doddington (two); Ealing; East Ardsley (two); Eastmoors; Edmonton (two); Eridge Green; Farncombe; Filby (three); Finghall; Flordon; Frenchay; Fulmodeston (two); Gatcombe (two); Great and Little Henny (two); Great and Little Kimble (two); Great Glemham; Great Grimsby; Great Missenden (two); Grimston; Hadlow Down; Halliwell; Hanworth; Hapton (two); Heigham; Helmsley; Hereford (two); Highbury; High Ham (two); Hockham (two); Holborn; Horning (two)Horsford (two);Horton; Islewoth; Islington (two); King Cross; King's Lynn; Kirby; Bedon; Lanchester; Leeds; Leiston; Little Glemham (two); Leyland (three); Llandewi Ystradenny (two); Llandrindod Wells (two); London; Longridge; Long Stratton (three); Lowick; Lytham; Maidstone (two); Merrington (two); Mexborough (two); Mile End; Milford; Mollington (two); Moultan; Mulbarton (three); Nechells; Neen; New Brentford; Newton Flotman; Northampton; Norton Bavant; Norwich (two); Nuneham Courtenay; Nunnington (two); Oake; Ockley (two); Openshaw; Ossett; Overchurch; Over Wyresdale; Pentney (two) Pockley; Preston Candover (two); Pulham; Reading; Reigate; Riveraulx; Rosley; St. Clether; St. Michael, Southampton; Salford (two); Satley; Sapiston; Scole; Settle; Sevenoaks (two); Shirley; Shotley (two); South Heigham; Sparkford (two); Staines; Stanton Lacy; Stepney; Stoke Thurgoland (two); Timberland (two); Tongecum-Alkington; Tottemham; Tupsley (two); Twickenham; Wendover (two); Westerdale (two); Westerham (two); Weston Turnville (two); Whorlton (two); Wiggington; Withyham; Witley; Wootton Bassett (two); Worth; Wrecclesham (two); Yalding (two); and, Yaxham: to lie upon the Table.

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday

Petition from Crewkerne, for Prohibition; to lie upon the Table.

Returns, Reports, Etc

Egyptian Guaranteed Loan of 1885

Account presented, up to 31st March, 1906 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Prisons (Scotland)

Copy presented, of Twenty-eighth Annual Report of the Prison Commissioners for Scotland, being the Sixty-seventh Annual Report on Prisons in Scotland, 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Acts

Copy presented, of Report of the Crofters' Commission for the year 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Penal Servitude Acts (Conditional Licence)

Copy presented, of a Licence to be at large granted to William Jones, to which are annexed conditions other than those contained in Schedule A of the Penal Servitude Act, 1864 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Underfed Children

Copy presented, of Statement of Information collected by the Board of Education and the Foreign Office regarding methods adopted in great Continental and American cities for dealing with underfed children, [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

East Africa Protectorate

Copy presented, of Return of Grants of Land in the East Africa Protectorate [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Trade (Foreign Countries and British Possessions)

Copy presented, of Annual Statement of the Trade of the United Kingdom with Foreign Countries and British Possessions for 1905. Volume I. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Trade Reports (Annual Series)

Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3552 and 3553 [by command]; to lie upon the Table.

Land Registry

Return ordered, "showing the work done in the Land Registry, in each of the years 1903, 1904, and 1905, respectively, under the various Acts hereinafter mentioned, namely:—

1. Under the Land Transfer Acts, 1875 and 1897—

(a) The number, value, and acreage (where known) of estates the titles to which were registered, on first registration, from the 1st day of January, 1903, to the 31st day of December, 1905, showing the numbers of estates registered with absolute, qualified, and possessory title, and good leaseholds; and also the number of estates registered under the Small Holdings Act, 1892;

(b) The total number of separate titles on the register on the 31st day of December, 1905 (i) by first registration, (ii.) by sub division of estates already registered, and (iii.) by transfer from the 1862 register;

(c) The total number of separate titles which have been removed from the register on the 31st day of December, 1905.

2. Under the Land Registry Act, 1862:—

(a) The total number, value, and acreage (where known) of estates the titles to which were registered on first registration.

(b) The total number of separate titles on the register on the 31st day of December, 1905, (i.) by first registration, and (ii.) by sub-division of estates already registered.

(c) The total number of separate titles which had been removed from the register on the 31st day of December, 1905, otherwise than by transfer to the 1875 register.

3. Under both the Acts of 1875 and 1862:—

(a) The total number of separate titles on the register on the 31st day of December, 1905.

(b) The total number of transactions registered from the 1st day of January, 1903, to the 31st day of December, 1905, showing the numbers of (i.) first registrations under the Acts of 1875 and 1897, (ii.) conveyances, transfers, and transmissions of land, (iii.) mortgages, charges, further charges, and transfers of mortgages and charges, (iv.) reconveyances of mortgages and cessation of charges, (v.) leases and surrenders of leases, (vi.) miscellaneous.

4. Under the Mortgage Debenture Acts, 1865 and 1870, and the Improvement of Land Act, 1864:—

A statement, so far as may be practicable, of the nature and amount of the work done under these Acts from the 1st day of January, 1902, to the 31st day of December, 1905.

5. Under the Land Charges Registration and Searches Act, 1888, and the Land Charges Act, 1900:—

The number of registrations, official searches, and ordinary searches made from the 1st day of January, 1903, to the 31st day of December, 1905.

6. Under the Middlesex Registry Act, 1708, and the Land Registry (Middlesex Deeds) Act, 1891:—

The number of registrations and searches made from the 1st day of January, 1903, to the 31st day of December, 1905.

And showing the amount of fees received and the amount of salaries and expenses in the Land Registry from the 1st day of April, 1903, to the 31st day of March, 1905, distinguishing for the purposes of Section 22 of the Land Transfer Act, 1897, the fees received and salaries and expenses paid under the Land Transfer Acts and the other Acts above referred to (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 315, of Session 1903)."—( Mr. Rowlands. )

Drumdoe, County Roscommon (Inquiry)

Return ordered, "of the Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into an alleged outrage at Drumdoe House, county Roscommon, on the night of the 11th day of July, 1905."—( Mr. James O'Kelly. )

Street Betting

Address for "Return of (1) summary convictions for Street Betting in the Metropolitan Police District during the years 1903, 1904, and 1905, showing, as regards each police court district or petty sessional division, ( a ) the number of persons convicted, ( b ) the number of persons convicted more than once during those years, and the number of such convictions in each case, ( c ) the total fines imposed; (2) local Acts in England and Wales, since 1900, providing for fines exceeding £5 in the case of second or subsequent convictions for Street Betting."—( Mr. Cave. )

Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890

Return ordered "as to the number of applications received by County Councils in England and Wales from District Councils to put in force Part III. of The Housing of Working Class Act, 1890, and as to the number of instances in which these applications have been granted, and in cases where they have been refused, the grounds for such refusal; also the number of cases in which resolutions by Parish Councils, under section 6 of The Housing of Working Classes Act, 1900, have been reported to the County Councils, and as to the action taken upon such resolutions."—( Mr. Brodie. )

Post Office (Wireless Telegraphy)

Copy ordered, "of Heads of Agreements between the Postmaster-General and Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Company, Limited, and the Marconi International Marine Communication Company, Limted, dated the 11th day of August, 1904, with reference to wireless telegraphy."—( Mr. Sydney Buxton. )

Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed [No. 123.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions and Answers Circulated With the Votes

Customs Officials and Trades Association

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the office inspector of the Customs Department, London, refuses to have members of the Committee of the Customs Assistants Association in his office, and that the junior London inspector openly advises young officers not to join the association; and whether any steps will be taken to prevent any further pressure of this character being used by such inspector.

( Answered by Mr. McKenna. ) I can find no trace of any refusal by the office inspector of the Customs Outdoor Department, London, to assign members of the committee of the Customs Assistants Association to places in his office. Nor can I discover any case of the junior London inspector either openly or privately advising young officers not to join the association. I should be glad if the hon. Member could inform me as to any specific instance on which his Question is based.

French Polishing in Devonport Dockyard

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the bulk of the French polishing in the Devonport dockyard is now done by women, some being married and having husbands earning good wages; what saving has been effected by the substitution of female for malelabour in this case; and whether this class of work, outside the Royal dockyards, is usually done by men.

Expenditure on Naval Education

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the gross expenditure on naval education and training, specifying how much has been spent under Vote 10, Naval Works Loan Acts, and other Votes in the preparation of ships and colleges in each of the financial years 1901 to 1906, inclusive, with the Estimate for 1906–7.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The particulars asked for in this Question, which it is understood relates to Osborne and Dartmouth Royal and Naval Colleges (including attached tenders) and the Royal Naval Engineering College, Devonport, are given in the subjoined statement:—

Year.

Gross Expenditure.

Expenditure on preparation of Colleges (included in Gross Expenditure) under—

Vote 10.

Naval Works Act.

Other Votes.

£

£

£

£

1901–2

110,579

1,238

44,417

1902–3

128,107

810

60,613

1903–4

259,966

101,848

61,905

12,913

1904–5

253,306

55,835

58,279

17,669

1905–6(estimated)

219,413

9,280

63,323

5,918

1906–7(estimated)

205,692

13,000

43,115

2,000

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) Women are employed to do the portion of the polishing work which is carried out in the shops. Of the six at present engaged, five are married, and the average earnings of their husbands are 15s. 3d. a week. The saving effected by the substitution of female for male labour in this case is £235 a year. The class of work on which these women are employed is that usually carried out by female labour in the private trade.

Upholstering Work done by Women in Royal Dockyards

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that since March, 1905, women have been appointed to do the upholstering work formerly done by men; whether he can state the amount of saving effected by this arrangement; and whether it is usual in this industry, outside the Royal dockyards, to give to women such heavy upholstery work as they are called upon to do for the Government.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) Women have been employed to do the lighter upholstering work at Devonport since March, 1905. This has resulted in a saving of approximately £300 per annum. The work done by these women is lighter than would be required of them in the private trade, men upholsterers being employed to do all heavy work, such as stuffing couches, chairs, mattresses, etc., and cutting out and nailing the skins.

Irish Mail Contracts—Uniform of Drivers

To ask the Postmaster-General why mail car contractors in Ireland are compelled to provide uniforms at their own expense, seeing that all other postal employees are supplied with uniforms free of cost.

( Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton. ) Mail car drivers in Ireland, as in England, are employed by contractors, not by the Post Office. These contractors, in tendering for the service, undertake to supply uniform to the driver; and that condition is taken into account in the amount of the tenders.

Transfer of Employees from Chatham Dockyard—Expenses of Removal

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will cause the expenses of removal to be defrayed by the Admiralty for the 225 men who are at present employed at Chatham Dockyard, and for whom employment is now contemplated in other yards; and whether some guarantee can be given to the men in question as to the duration of their new employment.

( Answered by Mr. Edmund Robertson. ) The question of affecting the removal of these men is at present under consideration, with the view of minimising any charges that might fall on them. It is not customary to give any guarantee as to the duration of employment to any of the men in His Majesty's dockyards.

Construction of Dublin College of Science

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many men are employed at present in the construction of the College of Science, Dublin; and whether it is intended to use Irish slates and materials in the building.

( Answered by Mr. McKenna. ) The number of men actually employed on Friday, 6th instant, in the construction of the College of Science in Dublin was thirty-three, in addition to nineteen carters, while the average number of men employed in the last three weeks was forty-three and eighteen carters. As regards the inquiry in the latter part of the Question, I must refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave to a similar Question on the 2nd instant.†

Irish Board of Lights

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will consider the advisability of introducing a measure to reform and re-organise the Irish Board of Lights, and to grant more liberal terms to its employees.

( Answered by Mr. Lloyd-George. ) My right hon. friend the Chief Secretary has asked me to reply to this Question. His Majesty's Government are not at the present moment prepared to undertake such a measure.

Labourers' Cottages at Ballygawley, Tyrone

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what was the result of the Inquiry held by the Local Government Board in regard to a scheme for labourers' cottages at Ballygawley, county Tyrone.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) Ballygawley is the name of an electoral division and dispensary district in the Clogher rural district, where, after due inquiry under Section 4 of the Act of 1891, the inspector of the Local Government Board recently reported that the rural district council had made default in making an improvement scheme. Thirteen labourers, on whose behalf representations had been made, attended the inquiry, and the inspector reported in favour of nine of these. The council have adopted a Report of a committee of their body objecting to the inspector's Report. The further action to be taken in the matter is at present under consideration of the Local Government Board.

Appointment of Assistant Land Commissioners

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the number of years service as Assistant Land Commissioners of each of the five gentlemen who have now been replaced by others in the appointments just sanctioned.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The number of years service of the gentlemen named as temporary Assistant Commissioners was as follows: Mr. Donovan, nine years; Mr. Grierson, eight years; Mr. Esmonde, six years; Mr. Croasdaile, six years; Mr. Clarke, six years.

Irish Land Purchase

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether on the Magheradown estate, county Cavan, the Commissioners have sanctioned the advances and have vested the holdings in the tenants; if so, were the conditions as arranged by Captain Sankey, the vendor, carried out of reinstating the evicted tenants, and, if they have not been so carried out, will he explain why this has not been done; and will the Estates Commissioners compel Captain Sankey to compensate the evicted tenants.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) I am informed by the Estates Commissioners that the advances applied for on the sale of the estate in question have not yet been sanctioned. The evicted tenants on this estate have not been reinstated. Their former holdings are in the occupation of other tenants, and there is no untenanted land on the estate. The Commissioners are satisfied that the vendor carried out the conditions on which the terms of sale were arranged, and they have no power to compel the vendor to compensate evicted tenants.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland with reference to the land case of the Marquess of Downshire, landlord, and Andrew T. Blaine, tenant, Record No. 5681, whether he is aware that at the inspection of the holding the Head Commissioner said, in the presence of the landlord's representative, that the tenant was not allowed sufficient reduction on account of drains and flooded ground; and whether he can explain why, under these circumstances, the rent was confirmed.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) I am informed by the Land Commissioner that this Question refers to the judicial decision of the Land Commission Appeal Court in a case fully heard and decided under the Land Acts, and they are not prepared to discuss or explain their judicial decisions in reply to Questions in Parliament.

Technical Knowledge for Position of Hackney-Carriage Inspector at Dublin

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a communication from the Coach-builders' Society of Dublin asking that a practical coachbuilder should be appointed to the position of hackney-carriage inspector for that city; whether he is aware that the claim of the Coach-makers' Society for this position has been endorsed by several of the Irish trade congresses; and whether, in view of the practical knowledge possessed of the duties by coach-makers, he will see that such a person is appointed when the next vacancy arises.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) I have received the communication referred to I am informed by the Chief Commissioner of the Dublin Metropolitan Police that the duties discharged by the Inspector of Police in charge of the hackney-carriage department are of a varied character, requiring considerable police experience and knowledge of the hackney-carriage laws and regulations. The minor portion of his duty, which relates to the inspection of vehicles, can be adequately discharged without a practical knowledge of coach-building.

Account of Late Staff Officer Deegan, Royal Irish Constabulary

To ask the Chief; Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to the alleged falsifications which took place in the books of the late Staff Officer Deegan, in the Royal Irish Constabulary Office, Dublin Castle, if he will say (1) whether the falsifications alleged to have been made between the months of September and December, 1903, would have been discovered in the life-time of the deceased if the bank book had been lodged to be made up between these dates; (2) whether seeing that two examinations of deceased's books were admittedly made within the above period, should not the bank book have been made up for; the purpose of each of these examinations,; and, if so (3) why was not the bank book lodged, and who was responsible for the non-lodgment until immediately after the deceased's death, when the deceased could not answer the alleged charge of falsification; and (4) should not there have been monthly audits or examinations of deceased's books, at which the bank book made up to date should have been produced to the auditor or examiner.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) (1) The falsity of the entries made by the deceased staff officer in his bank book, between September and December, 1903, would have been discovered in his lifetime if he had lodged the book in the bank, during the period mentioned, to be written up there, as it was his duty to do. (2) When the accounts of the deceased were examined within this period, the deceased produced his bank book apparently written up, but it was only after his death that it was discovered that the entries in the book had not been made at the bank. (3) The lodgment of the book in the bank was the duty of the deceased himself, and he concealed his non-performance thereof by the entries therein which purported to have been made at the bank. (4) The books and monthly accounts of deceased were examined during the period in question, and the falsified bank book was produced by him to the examiner on each occasion.

Purchase of Estates in County Mayo

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the names, and the extent in statute acres, of the estates purchased by the Congested Districts Board in the county Mayo within the last ten years; whether any of these estates are still in the hands of the Board, and, if so, what are the names, and the extent in statute acres, of such estates; how long have they been in the hands of the Board; and can he give the cause in the case of each estate of their non distribution amongst the neighbouring tenants who live on uneconomic holdings.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) I will obtain and forward to the hon. Member a statement giving the information for which he asks. It will, however, take some little time to prepare it.

Irish Land Purchase Fund

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any moneys have been placed to the credit of the capital account of the Irish Land Purchase Fund since January 31st; what is their total amount; and how much thereof has been assigned to the capital account of the Irish Land Purchase Aid Fund for the percentage payable under Section 47 of The Irish Land Act, 1903.

( Answered by Mr. McKenna. ) The following sums have been placed to the credit of the Irish Land Purchase Fund since the January 31st last, viz.:—

For Advances.

For Land Purchased Aid Fund.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

On February 26th

910,750

0

0

89,250

0

0

On April 6th

920,291

13

4

Nill

Total

1,831,041

13

4

89,250

0

0

Purchase for Irish Lands

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, in view of the prospect of Canadian store cattle being admitted to the United Kingdom alive, if free from disease, and the threatened injury to the Irish cattle trade and consequent damage to the Irish tenantry and non-payment of the rentals, the Government will refuse to provide any more money for the purchase of land under the Irish Land Act of 1903.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) No, Sir; the Government propose to continue to provide money for the purchase of Land under the Act of 1903.

Sale of Kerry Estates

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state, in connection with the sale of land in the county of Kerry by landlords, either to the tenants direct, the Estates Commissioners, and the Congested District Board, under the Purchase Act of 1903, the name of the landlord or estate, the average of estate, the valuation of the estate, the rental of the estate, the amount of purchase money, the amount of bonus, the date when agreements were lodged, and the date when sale was provisionally sanctioned or otherwise.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) The Estates Commissioners inform me that their Annual Report and Monthly Returns, now in course of preparation, will give ample information by counties as to all holdings sold under the Act of 1903. I am forwarding to the hon. Member a Return giving particulars of the purchases made by the Congested Districts Board in county Kerry.

Sick Pay of Labourers Employed by Drogheda Corporation

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the auditor to the Local Government Board has given notice to the Drogheda Corporation that he will not allow them to make any allowance, in the shape of pay, to any of the labourers in their employment who may be temporarily absent through sickness; will he say by what authority the auditor has made such a restriction; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter.

( Answered by Mr. Bryce. ) Inquiries are being made in this matter; but I have as yet no information to give the hon. Member. The Local Government Board inform me that the question of; paying the employees of local authorities during illness frequently arises, and that,; while they have laid down no definite ruling, it is customary for them to point out that under ordinary circumstances workmen are generally regarded as receiving a day's wages for a day's work done, and are therefore in a different position from officers who hold specific appointments during the pleasure of the local authority. In some cases the Board realise that it might be reasonable to allow wages during absences on account of sickness to certain classes of workmen who are regular employees of the local authority; but they cannot quote any statutory authority for making such payments.

Public Education in the Gold Coast Colony

To ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the proportion borne by the amount devoted to education in the Gold Coast Colony to the public revenue of the same; whether out of a population of 2,500,000 people there were until recently only two schools for girls, and that one of these have been permanently closed since the beginning of the year; whether he can assign any reason for this state of affairs; whether he can state what new public work have been undertaken in the Colony since the recent levy; and whether he is aware that all courts of justice in Northern Nigeria and Ashantee are closed to practising barristers, with the result that complaints amongst the natives are numerous as to alleged cases of miscarriage of justice.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) According to the Estimates for 1906, £10,920 is allotted to education out of a total revenue estimated at £697,000. In addition to the two Government girls' schools, there are seven mission girls' schools and seventy-six mixed schools. The reasons given for the closing of one of the Government girls' schools at Cape Coast were that there were sufficient other girls' schools at Cape Coast, that the attendance at the Government school was small and the teaching was unsatisfactory, and that the space was required for an extension of the boys' school. Since the Gold Coast Loan of 1902 was issued the railway from Sekondi has been completed to Kumasi, harbour works are being undertaken at Accra, and a survey is being made for a railway from Accra. Barristers are not allowed to practice in native courts in Northern Nigeria, nor in civil causes between illiterates in other courts in Northern Nigeria and Ashanti except in special circumstances, and in certain other cases the employment of a barrister is subject to the approval of the court. The rules to this effect were made for the protection of the natives, and I have received no complaints that miscarriages of justice have occurred in consequence of them.

West African Medical Service and Coloured Practitioners

To ask the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies whether coloured medical men of African origin or descent are excluded from the West African medical service and, if so, can he state upon what grounds.

( Answered by Mr. Churchill. ) Coloured medical men of African origin or descent are ineligible for the West African medical staff, but are eligible for certain other public appointments in the Gold Coast, Sierra Leone, and Lagos. The West African medical staff is constituted principally for the purpose of safeguarding the health of the European officials of the Colonial Governments; and West African native medical officers would not, as a rule, command the confidence of these Europeans.

Pay, etc., for Royal Engineers engaged on Ordnance Survey

To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, what is the maximum working pay for a sergeant or sapper of the Royal Engineers employed on the Ordnance Survey, together with his military pay and perquisites; whether they get paid out of the Ordnance Survey grant or out of the Army Estimates; and whether he is aware that the civilian employees are sometimes reduced or checked in their pay and discharged without gratuity or pension after long service.

( Answered by Sir Edward Strachey. ) The non-commissioned officers and sappers employed on the Ordnance Survey receive working pay and lodging allowance from the Survey Vote and military pay from the Army Votes. The rates of working pay vary from 6d. to the maximum of 4s. a day. When quarters and fuel cannot be provided the money allowances are:—Lodging Allowance. For warrant officers, married or unmarried, Is. 6d. per diem. For staff sergeant, married or unmarried, Is. 4d. per diem. For company sergeant-majors, married, Is. per diem; unmarried 9d. per diem. For sergeants, corporals, sappers, and buglers, on the married roll, l0d. per diem. For sergeants, corporals, sappers, and buglers, not on the married roll, 4d. per diem. The fuel allowance is issued at winter or summer rates, and varies, according to rank, from 3d. to 9d. a day. The daily rates of military pay are as follows:—Sergeant-major, 6s.; quartermaster - sergeant, 4s. 6d.; company sergeant-major, 3s. 9d.; sergeant, 3s. 3d.; corporals, 2s. 6d.; second corporals, 2s. 2d.; sappers and buglers, Is. 1½d. Checks of pay for bad work or misconduct are imposed both on the military and civil employes. The latter are not discharged without gratuity or pension after long service, except for misconduct.

Ordnance Survey Department

To ask the hon Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, approaching the end of each financial year, the employes in the Ordnance Survey Office only are put on overtime; whether this is done in order that a certain ratio of work should be shown, or whether it is to absorb surplus money; and whether he can state what amount of the grant has been expended upon office buildings, stationery, and similar charges.

( Answered by Sir Edward Strachey. ) It is sometimes necessary to resort to overtime in the publication branch of the Ordnance Survey in order to keep pace with the work and to prevent its accumulation when pressure arises, but not for the purpose of showing a certain ratio of work or of absorbing surplus money towards the close of the financial year. The expenditure from the Survey Vote in current repairs of office buildings, including water, gas, and electric light fittings, heating apparatus, etc., amounts to between £400 and £500 a year. Stationery and printing are not charged to the Survey Vote, but are supplied by the Stationery Office. The aggregate cost in 1904–5 was £2,743.

To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he can state how many men are in the field section with from fourteen to thirty-three years' service, who are classed as temporary civil assistants and also chainmen with no prospect of a pension, and little chance of promotion; whether he can state how many civilians in this department are civil assistants eligible for pensions; and how many of this class will be in receipt of the pension on reaching the age limit.

( Answered by Sir Edward Strachey. ) There are six civil assistants, 200 temporary civil assistants, and sixteen chainmen, with from fourteen to thirty-three years service, employed on the field duties of the Ordnance Survey. The six civil assistants are eligible for pensions on reaching the age limit. The temporary civil assistants can obtain pensions only in the event of their being appointed to one of the posts which carry pensionable rights.

School Inspectors in Cardiff District

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the fact that all His Majesty's inspectors of schools in the Cardiff district are monoglot Englishmen; and whether, in view of the fact that the Welsh language is a subject of instruction in all the schools of Cardiff, he can arrange for a Welsh-speaking inspector, preferably a Welshman, to be located in that district.

( Answered by Mr. Birrell. ) I am aware that His Majesty's inspector (there is only one) for the Cardiff district does not speak Welsh, but I believe that he is the only His Majesty's inspector in Wales who does not. Every effort is made by the Board to arrange that Welsh schools are inspected by Welsh-speaking inspectors. There are Welsh-speaking inspectors in all the neighbouring districts, one of them living close to Cardiff, who are available whenever required in the Cardiff district. I do not think, therefore, that any inconvenience can arise.

Education Bill—School Hours

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether it is proposed in the Education Bill that the term school hours, as applied to public elementary schools, shall mean only the hours between 9.45 a.m. and 4 p.m., during which hours alone attendance will be compulsory; if so, whether the local education authorities will be empowered by law, and have the sanction of the Board of Education, in addition to providing secular instruction during the school hours from 9.45 a.m. to 4 p.m. to provide religious instruction, in accordance with a syllabus approved by the Board of Education and consonant with the Cowper-Temple clause, out of school hours between 9 a.m. and 9.40 a.m.; and whether, if this is the case, the local education authorities will have the power to engage the teachers in public elementary schools, at the public expense for the purpose of giving such religious instruction in addition to the secular instruction to be given in the school hours from 9.45 a.m. to 4 p.m.

To ask the President of the Board of Education how often it will be permissible to revise the proposed religious census of parents by which, on the demand of at least 80 per cent., denominational teaching will be permitted in populous districts.

( Answered by Mr. Birrell. ) I must refer the hon. Members to the terms of the Bill itself, which is now available for Members. It does not seem to me a convenient practice to attempt to deal by means of Question and Answer with details of an important measure which is awaiting the consideration of the House. The various discussions on the Bill that must take place in the House will offer ample opportunity for its elucidation.

Head Postmastership

To ask the Postmaster-General in reference to a resolution adopted at the recent conference of Irish postal clerks, hold in Dublin, as to the appointment to vacant post-masterships in Ireland of the establishment serving in England, what is the number of head post-masterships in England, including Wales, Scotland and Ireland respectively, with salaries not exceeding £100, £200, £300 and £400, in excess of £400 and not exceeding £800 and over £800 per year; and what was the average number of vacancies in these positions arising in each country for the three years ending the 1st January last.

( Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton. ) I am afraid I cannot supply the hon. Member with an answer to his Question; to work out the figures would involve considerable labour.

Belfast Post Office Staff

To ask the Postmaster-General, with reference to the recent selections upon the staff of the telegraph branch of the Belfast Post Office to fill the vacant positions of acting or relieving postmasters, whether written application was made by those appointed in respect of these vacancies; if so, what was the respective dates of such applications, to whom addressed, and with whom did the confirmation of these selections finally rest; whether at the time they were confirmed had applications been received from any other member of either the telegraph or postal sections; if so, from how many; and, if not, can any reason be assigned for none applying; and if it be the practice to invite applications for such vacancies, what was the date upon which this practice was initiated; was it coincident with these vacancies arising; and upon whose authority was the former system of inviting applications for vacancies superseded; and, as there were only three vacancies and three candidates, can he state how the most suitable of eligible officers came to be determined.

( Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton. ) I am afraid I do not see my way to give the hon. Member the detailed information he asks for.

Eye (Suffolk) Election—Post Office and Election Pamphlets

To ask the Postmaster-General whether, during the recent bye-election in the Eye Division of Suffolk, the post office at Knoddishall was used for the purpose of the distribution of political literature in support of the ministerial candidate; whether leaflets distributed were stamped with the official post-mark of the office; and, if so, whether this is in accordance with the Post Office Regulations.

( Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton. ) I am making inquiry on this subject, and I will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

Committal of Children to Industrial Schools

To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether the committal of the Hyndham children to the Strabane Industrial School by the justices of Cushendall, county Antrim, was a judicial proceeding by order; if so, were the children released by the Crown on the ground that no evidence existed to warrant the committal; since what date has the Crown undertaken to examine evidence in the case of committals; does such examination extend to criminal convictions, and, if a distinction exists, upon what principle is it based; was a certiorari applied for to quash the order of the Cushendall justices; if not, what official decided that there was no evidence on which the justices could legally act; how is the jurisdiction to examine into the evidence before justices derived; and, were written depositions taken in the present case.

( Answered by Mr. Cherry. ) These children were committed to Strabane Industrial School under the provisions of the 11th section of the Industrial Schools Act, 1868, on the grounds that they were found wandering and that they were not under proper guardianship. Written depositions were taken and a regular order of committal was made by the Cushendall justices. A certioriari was not applied for to quash the order of the justices. The children were discharged by the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenaut under the powers conferred on him by the 33rd section of the Act.

The Tweed Act—Complaints by Anglers

To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to the complaints amongst anglers in the upper waters of the Tweed regarding the operation of the Tweed Acts; and, if so, whether he will, in due course, consider the advisability of amending these Acts.

( Answered by Mr. Sinclair. ) I am aware of these complaints, and shall be glad to consider in due course the question of legislation.

Peeblesshire County Council Clerk as Election Agent

To ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that dissatisfaction prevails amongst the Liberal ratepayers of Peeblesshire, who are in a majority, at the action of the clerk of the County Council in appearing in the registration courts and at election times as paid Conservative agent; and, if so, whether he possesses statutory power to prohibit a practice which is peculiar to that county, and which is persisted in in spite of continued protest.

( Answered by Mr. Sinclair. ) I am aware of this dissatisfaction, which seems on general grounds to be reasonable, and, I understand, has in its support the almost unanimous practice of the county councils of Scotland. But the Secretary for Scotland has no statutory powers in the matter.

Extension of Workmen's Compensation Act to Channel Islands

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that Messrs. Mowlem and Company, of Westminster, supply Government and municipal contracts from their granite quarries in Guernsey, Channel Islands, where a workman, named Lemaitre, was killed last month; and whether, as his widow had no claim to condensation under any existing law, he will extend the provisions of the Workmen's Compensation Bill so as to make it apply to workmen employed in the Channel Islands who are engaged in carrying out British contracts.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone. ) The case mentioned has not come before me. I will consider the hon. Member's suggestion, but must first consult the authorities of the islands.

Collection of King's Taxes

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether complaints have been made as to the employment of underpaid youths by certain district collectors to perform the duty of calling upon the public for taxes; and, if so, whether it could be arranged that firms in large industrial centres should pay direct to the chief collector of Inland Revenue the taxes under Schedules A, B, C, D), and E.

( Answered by Mr. Asquith. ) The Board of Inland Revenue have heard of no complaint of the kind, and have no knowledge of any such practice, which would be quite contrary to the instructions issued to collectors of taxes.

Grants for Scottish Education

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the grant proposed under the Education Bill for dealing with voluntary schools in England, it is intended to provide an equivalent grant for Scottish education.

( Answered by Mr. Asquith. ) As the financial arrangements under the Education Bill will not come into force during the present financial year, it would be premature to come to any decision on the question raised by my hon. friend.

Pay of Labourers in Irish Branch Army Ordnance Department

To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists amongst the labourers employed in the Army Ordnance Department in Ireland, on account of the rate of wages earned by them and owing to dismissals of civilians from employment; and whether he will explain why six notices of discharge were served recently at Island Bridge depot.

( Answered by Mr. Buchanan. ) The question of the rate of pay for labourers is now the subject of inquiry between the War Office and the General Officer Commanding in Chief in Ireland. The dismissals referred to are in consequence of reduction of civilian establishments.

Exercise of Horses for the Curragh Camp —Danger to Public

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that it is the custom for soldiers stationed at the Curragh Camp, Kildare, to exercise three horses abreast on the public roads, to the danger of pedestrians; whether he is aware that the rural district council have passed a resolution condemning the practice, and have written a remonstrance on the matter to the Assistant Adjutant General, commanding the district without redress; and whether he will make inquiry into the complaint and have an immediate remedy applied.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) These matters must necessarily rest with the local military authorities, with whose discretion I am not prepared to interfere.

Tidworth Barrack Scheme

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the whole of the money voted for the Tidworth Barrack scheme has been expended; if not, why a hospital, for which plans have been prepared for some months, has not been built in order to obviate the inconvenience and suffering of moving sick soldiers four miles to Bulford; and whether any church or chapel for the 3,000 troops stationed at Tidworth is immediately contemplated, as none exists.

( Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane. ) The allocation of funds for the provision of a hospital at Tidworth is at present receiving careful consideration. The sick are transferred to the military hospital at Bulford, and no complaints of inconvenience or suffering have been received. It is not proposed at present to construct a church or chapel for the troops at Tidworth.

Questions in the House

Retired Officers

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether Article 606, Pay Warrant, which states that under special circumstances determined by the Secretary of State for War the retired pay of an officer may be suspended or withheld, enables a Secretary of State to prevent criticisms adverse to the Army Board or to individual members; whether he is aware that this regulation places retired officers in a less secure position than officers on the active list, who can claim a trial by court-martial; and whether he will undertake not to interfere in any way with the free expression of opinions by retired officers.

* : The exercise of the power referred to in Article 606 of the Pay Warrant does not place retired officers in a disadvantageous position, as compared with officers on the active list, in the manner suggested, as the latter cannot claim a trial by court-martial. It has not been customary to interfere unreasonably with the expressions of opinion of retired officers, and I am not prepared to give the undertaking suggested in the Question.

May I ask my right hon. friend what redress of any kind retired officers have?

* : I am not aware that any unreasonable interference has occurred. It is only on grave grounds that interference takes place.

May I ask whether any reason exists for subjecting retired officers of the Army to disciplinary provisions which do not apply to his Majesty's Civil servants?

* : I am not aware of any concrete case of the kind suggested, but it is right that in such cases there should be some control. After all, an officer of the Army, even if he is on the retired list, is in a responsible position, and more importance is attached abroad to what he says than to what a civilian says.

* : If I have done anything which my hon. friend thinks is unreasonable it is quite competent for him to raise this Question upon the salary of the Secretary of State for War.

Military Station at Londonderry

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War why was the work of completing the contract of building the military station, etc., at Ebrington, Londonderry, suspended; what amount of money is yet to be expended; and whether he will now take steps to have the work proceeded with.

* : The buildings at Londonderry have been completed and no work is now in hand. There is no money yet to be expended. It is not therefore understood to what the hon. Member alludes.

Seaforth Highlanders in Port George

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the members of the 3rd Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Militia) who reside in the Island of Lewis recently received notice summon- ing them to Fort George between the 2nd and 4th instant, and directing them to travel by the mail steamer leaving Stornoway on the night of Monday as there was no special boat this year, and stating that all would certainly not be allowed to travel by the mail steamer leaving Stornoway on Tuesday night, and that those who did not travel on Monday and found themselves crowded out of Tuesday's mail boat could not arrive in time for the assembly, and would render themselves liable to punishment; and, seeing that there are about 700 of the Militia in the island, and the steamer will only accommodate 250 men, will he explain by whose authority the notice was issued; and why the men were threatened with punishment if they did not arrive in time.

I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the members of the Ross-shire Militia, 3rd Seaforth Highlanders, were recently summoned to attend at Fort George between the 2nd and 4th instant, with the result that 400 men gathered into Stornoway from all parts of the island on Monday the 2nd instant for the purpose of proceeding that night to Fort George; whether he is aware that, as the steamer would only accommodate 250 men, the remainder, many of whom had travelled long distances to the town, had the greatest difficulty in finding accommodation for the night; and will he state who is responsible for having failed to make suitable arrangements, and in what way the men have been compensated for their outlays.

I beg further to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, having regard to the fact that the 3rd Seaforth Highlanders (Ross-shire Militia), which is almost entirely composed of Lewis men, were summoned to Fort George between the 2nd and 4th instant, and that there are about 700 of the Militia in the island, he will explain why no special boat was chartered for their conveyance, seeing that the mail steamer would only accommodate 250 men, and that it was, therefore, impossible for all the men to reach Fort George by the date specified.

There is no information in the War Office in regard to the matters mentioned in these three Questions, but reference has been made to the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in Scotland.

This is a matter of serious and urgent importance. There are 750 of these Seaforth Highlanders at Lewis. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman might have gone to the expense of a sixpenny telegram to have made the inquiries. In consequence of the very unsatisfactory nature of the Answer I shall raise this Question on the Motion for the Adjournment.

Plant and Machinery at Sparkbrook Factory

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, the amount of money expended on plant and machinery in the Sparkbrook factory during the last ten years; and whether he will state the sum to be paid for the same by the purchasing syndicate.

The total amount spent on plant and machinery in the last ten years was about £37,000. The sum to be paid for the same by the purchasing factory cannot, as I have already explained, be at present disclosed.

Transvaal Labour Importation Ordinance

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what time will be specified in the Regulations under the Chinese Ordinance which must elapse before the 16,000 coolies not yet arrived in the Transvaal may apply for repatriation after coming to the mines.

* : This is one of the points of detail as to which information cannot be given until the drafting of the actual regulations is completed.

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the largest number of Chinese coolies employed in South Africa since the Transvaal Labour importation Ordinance was introduced, aud how many are employed now; whether the Chinese coolies now employed are still forbidden to engage in skilled labour in any of the fifty-seven kinds of employment mentioned in Schedule 1 of the Ordinance; and whether, if this prohibition is no longer in force, it has been explained to the coolies that they are at liberty to engage in them; whether the Chinese coolies are still forbidden to be employed on any but unskilled labour in the exploitation of minerals within the Witwatersrand district; whether the Chinese coolies are still prohibited, under penalty of fine and imprisonment, to leave the premises on which they are employed, unless by permission of an agent of the importer, and in no case for more than forty-eight hours after the issue of the permit; and whether in any, and, if so, in what ways the terms of the Ordinance have been varied, or its provisions relaxed in favour of the Chinese coolies.

* : The number employed on February 28th was 50,000, and was the largest number employed up to the present. There has been some wastage since, but the Secretary of State has no later official figure. The labourers are still subject to the disabilities enumerated in the Question. It was never proposed by His Majesty's Government to remove the prohibitions against the Chinese engaging in skilled labour during the period of the continuance of the existing Ordinance. The removal of such prohibition would no doubt be of great advantage to the mineowners as enabling them to substitute a much cheaper form of skilled labour for the skilled British labour now employed. But it would certainly not be in the interests of the white community. The objectionable provisions in the amending Ordinance of 1905 which are being removed are ( a ) the holding of trials on mine promises; ( b ) deduction of fine from wages; ( c ) fining of head boy for not reporting offences; ( d ) collective punishment. Lord Selborne has telegraphed that practical effect has already been given to all these amendments of the Ordinance; but it is possible that legislation may be required to regularise one or two of these amendments, and such legislation must be delayed until the Legislative Council meet.

Does not the hon. Gentleman know that the mineowners were opposed to the use of Chinamen for skilled labour from the beginning? In his Answer the hon. Gentleman would seem to have suggested that the mineowners were in favour of it. ["No."]

* : I certainly did not intend to make any suggestion of that kind; I merely pointed out that it would be to the interest of the mineowners and conducive to cheaper working if Chinamen were allowed to be employed in all forms of work, skilled and unskilled.

Is it not the fact that Mr. Woods, secretary of the Johannesburg Miners' Association, has repeatedly complained of mineowners attempting to place Chinamen on skilled white work.

[No Answer was returned.]

When will Papers be laid upon the Table to show the number of Chinamen employed in the mines?

* : If that means when further Blue-books on the Chinese Ordinance are to be laid, I cannot say. A Blue-book was published at the beginning of the session upon this Question, and I think it would be better to wait a little longer before publishing another.

Martial Law in Natal

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Governor of Natal has made any representations to His Majesty's Government in justification for the prolonged period during which martial law in Natal has lasted; and whether any steps are being taken to withdraw the martial law proclamation.

* : The proclamation of martial law by the Governor has taken place on the advice of his Ministers who will have to justify their action to their own Parliament in regard to both its proclamation and its duration. The Secretary of State is not aware that steps are as yet being taken to withdraw the proclamation. With regard to the administration of martial law, the Secretary of State has received a telegram from Sir Henry McCallum stating that five cases of death sentences passed by a court-martial, for sedition and insurrection on the south coast have been considered by the Executive Council. The Governor explained the facts of the case, and how the case differed from the murder of the police officers. In all five, cases the Council advised him in favour of clemency, and he accepted the advice tendered to him.

As the Government declared the native question to be an Imperial one and not entirely a Colonial one, I beg to ask whether in future any imposition of taxation on the natives likely to cause them to rise in rebellion——

I beg to ask whether the Under-Secretary's attention has been drawn to the fact that martial law, having been proclaimed on February 9th, has been made retrospective so as to cover acts done on the 8th, whether there are any precedents for such a use of the Royal prerogative, and whether any representation has been made to the Governor of Natal on the subject.

* : I think that if the hon. Member will consider that martial law is the total or partial suspension of the ordinary law, he will realise that there is nothing to prevent court-martial from dealing with acts committed prior to the proclamation of martial law. Acts done in pursuance of martial law are not done by use of the Royal prerogative, but are illegal until confirmed by an Act of indemnity.

; Would the hon. Member answer the second paragraph as to whether there is any precedent for the retrospective action of martial law.

* : I am not aware. But as I explained to my hon. friend the use of the Royal prerogative is not brought in.

I should like to ask whether, seeing that the ordinary Courts are still sitting, the Government intend to advise the withdrawl of the proclamation of martial law.

* : I have every reason to believe that the Government of Natal are very anxious to withdraw the proclamation on the earliest possible opportunity. I believe that opportunity will not arise until their Parliament has met, which I think, is on May 3, when a Bill of indemnity can be introduced. In the meantine, the application of martial law is being restricted to the disturbed districts, although technically in operation over the whole country. It will be seen from the telegram I read in answer to an earlier Question that martial law is being administered with care and consideration by the responsible Ministers of the Natal Government.

New Railways in the Transvaal

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the proposed sanction by the responsible authorities in the Transvaal of a new railway from Nelspruit, or Alkmaar, to Pilgrim's Rest, which can only benefit the mining community, in preference to the railway planned by the late Boer Government, from Belfast, via Dullstroom and Lydenburg, to Nelspruit, which would benefit both the agricultural and mining interests of the Transvaal Colony; and what action, if any, the Colonial Office propose to take in the matter.

* : It is within the knowledge of the Secretary of State that railway construction in the district referred to will be considered by the local authorities if suitable proposals are made by persons interested, but no information has been received as to the exact points raised by the hon. Member. The decision as to the precise route to be followed by a railway is a matter which may properly be left to the local authorities and their export advisers. I may add that Lord Selborne has shown himself keenly alive to the desirability of developing the agricultural resources of the two new Colonies by means of railways, several of which have been planned for the especial purpose of bringing the agricultural districts into contact with the industrial centres, which are of course their chief markets.

Inter-Colonial Conference in South Africa

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he is aware that the Inter-Colonial Customs Conference in South Africa has decided to propose to the several Colonial Governments an increase of the preferential duty for English merchandise from 2½ per cent. to 5 per cent.; whether such increase will be approved in the case of the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony by His Majesty's Government; and, if so, whether His Majesty's Government will be prepared to offer any and what compensation to the inhabitants of these Colonies for the sacrifices which this increased burden will entail upon them.

My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question for him. There has not yet been time to receive the decisions of the Customs Conference, which will, of course, be subject to approval by the legislatures of the respective Colonies.

Servia

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the conditions under which this country would be ready to resume diplomatic relations with Servia have been specified in writing to a Servian agent; and, if so, what are those conditions.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS
(Sir EDWARD GREY, Northumberland, Berwick)

The question of the renewal of diplomatic relations between England and Servia cannot be discussed between the two Governments so long as the regicide officers hold official positions and influence the Servian Government. In the event of these officers being withdrawn from their positions and of the King agreeing to send a representative to Belgrade, it would of course be understood that the officers in question would not be reinstated.

Police Constables and Army Reserve

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that police constables who happened to be in the Reserve, and who were called up to do service for their country in July 1882 in the Egyptian campaign for periods varying from two to twelve months, are not allowed to count this time as service in the police, although police constables in the Reserve, when recently called to serve in South Africa, had such time of absence counted for pension as though they had not been absent; and if he will take into his consideration the adjustment of this difference of treatment.

Yes, Sir, I have had this point under my consideration. As I informed the hon. Member for the Kennington Division on 12th March,† it is a matter that requires legislation and is dealt with in Clause 3 of the Police Superannuation Bill now before Parliament. A special Act (the Police Reservists Act, 1902) was passed to meet the case of police called out for service in South Africa.

Lambeth Barbers and Early Closing

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that twelve months have elapsed since the hairdressers and barbers of Lambeth presented a petition to the Lambeth Borough Council in favour of early closing, and that the Lambeth Borough Council made an order for early closing on March 29th last; and is he now prepared to approve that order, so that it may be put into force forthwith.

I believe that this matter has been under the consideration of the Lambeth Borough Council for about a twelvemonth. They have now, on the 31st ultimo, submitted an order to me for confirmation. The order must, in pursuance of the Regulations, lie in my Department for a month for the receipt of objections. At the end of that time I will without delay take the question of confirming the order into consideration.

Conveying Convicts in Omnibuses

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether twelve

†See (4) Debates, cliii., 921.

manacled convicts, in convict dress, were recently conveyed in an omnibus from Wormwood Scrubbs to Waterloo Station, exposed in crowded streets to the public view; and, if so, whether he will consider the advisability of making other provision so as to avoid spectacles of this nature.

I find on inquiry that a party of prisoners who were being moved to Winchester, were conveyed last Wednesday by omnibus from Wormwood Scrubbs Prison to Waterloo Station, but I am informed that the curtains of the omnibus were drawn, and that the exposure of the prisoners to the public view was avoided as far as possible. The Governors of His Majesty's prisons have very explicit orders to guard against any undue publicity in the transfer of prisoners from one prison to another; and I am satisfied that they do their best to comply with these orders. I will consider, in connection with the Estimates, the possibility of using prison vans in future at Wormwood Scrubbs, though this would involve considerable extra expense.

>The Unemployed

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Central Body (London) under the Unemployed Act is almost at a standstill for lack of funds; and whether he proposes taking any action to enable it to continue to register and find work for the unemployed of the metropolis.

The Unemployed Workman Act does not contemplate that application for assistance under it will be received, or that such assistance will be provided, at all times. The Distress Committees in London were only required by the central body to receive applications during the period ended March 31st last, and the central body resolved that after that date no application should be received except in respect of colony works and emigration. They further resolved not to start new work, subject to certain exceptions, and that, apart from work in which the training is an important element and from work recently started, existing work should be discontinued after Easter. But I do not understand that the central body are almost at a standstill. On March 31st the number of men at work was 3,390, and it is expected that the closing of the work, which will be gradual, will not be completed before the end of June. As my hon. friend is aware, the Government have intimated their intention to introduce a Bill to amend the Act, but I cannot give any intimation at the present time as to what the proposals of the Bill will be.

The Bill will take its proper place in order of precedence in the programme of the Government.

May I ask whether there is any indication as to when this Bill is likely to be introduced?

Then I beg to give notice that I shall call attention to this matter on the Motion for Adjournment.

Discretionary Powers to Poor Law Guardians

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the report of an inquest held at Poplar on 5th April to inquire into the death of a seventy-five-years old dock labourer named James Eaton, who had previously resided at Limehouse, whose death, the jury agreed, had been brought about by want of food, and to the statement of the relieving officer that the guardians could do nothing, because Mrs. Macdonald, the deceased man's daughter, with whom he had been living, and who was earning only 10s. per week, out of which she had to pay 4s. 6d. per week for rent and maintain two children, had been deserted by her husband; and, if so, whether he will advise such an Amendment of the law as will give the poor law guardians sufficient discretionary powers to enable them to grant such out door relief as will in future obviate such an incident.

I understand that on the 29th March application was made to one of the relieving officers of the Stepney Union for the admission of the deceased to the workhouse, that he was removed to the infirmary of the workhouse on the same day suffering from bronchitis and old age, and that he died there on the 3rd instant. I have not seen the report of the inquest, but I understand from the clerk to the guardians that what the relieving officer stated at the inquest was that if Mrs. Macdonald would apply for relief her case would be submitted to the guardians, and that if relief were given a warrant for the apprehension of her husband, who has deserted her, would be applied for. If Mrs. Macdonald is in need of relief it is competent for the guardians to give her relief out of the workhouse, but I am informed that no application has yet been made by her or by any one on her behalf.

Mail Service between Ireland and England

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he has received further requests from towns in the North of Ireland to establish a mail to England via Greenore and Holyhead; and whether he is now in a position to announce that this additional facility will be granted.

If the hon. Member will postpone this Question until after the Easter recess I will give him his Answer then.

New Post Office at Bangor

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he has now received the memorial from the majority of the urban district councillors of Bangor, county Down, pointing out that the site proposed for the new Post Office is the most unsuitable and most inconvenient that could be selected; and whether this site will now be abandoned.

I have received the memorial, and as I stated in this House on the 5th instant,† in reply to a previous Question by the hon. Member, I have called for a further report in the matter.

Postmaster-General and Telephone Department

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he will explain why he has refused, to receive a deputation from the night operators of the Telephone Department, who desired to lay their grievances before him.

The night operators placed their case before me very fully in writing; and I considered it carefully. I did not think that any advantage would be gained by a deputation or fresh light thereby thrown on the question, especially spending the sitting and report of the Select Committee on Postal Servants.

St Leonards Sorting Office

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the assistant superintendent in charge of the St. Leonards sorting office was withdrawn from his duties to test a rural postman's walk on the 31st of March last, no substitute being provided to cover his duty, which had in consequence to be performed by other officers in addition to their own duties; and whether he will explain why the test in question was not performed by the inspector of postmen.

This Question involves local inquiry, which is being made. I will give the hon. Member the desired information as soon as I can.

Lord Stanley's Promise to Postmen's Federation

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that Lord Stanley made a promise to a deputation from the Postmen's Federation, on the 26th January, 1905, that special allowances would be granted to selected officers employed at the larger provincial towns, for performing indoor duties; and can he see his way to redeeming this promise.

I am aware that the matter was referred to on the occasion in question. It is still in an experimental stage, and I hope soon to be in a position to say whether it is practicable to adopt it generally at some of the larger offices.

The Turner Pictures at the Tate Gallery

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what is the estimated value of the Turner pictures lately discovered, and exhibited at the Tate Gallery.

It is imposible to give such an estimate.

Customs Department Grievances

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will institute a Parliamentary Inquiry into the alleged grievances of the second-class examining officers in the Customs Department.

Furniture of Non-provided Schools

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Board of Education has ruled that it falls to the managers of a non-provided school to provide the furniture of such school; whether that ruling is in accordance with previous rulings of the board; and, if not, on whose advice the later ruling was given; and whether by an unofficial letter the Minister of Education has expressed his willingness to recommend a modification of the later ruling in the case of a school erected by Mr. Cadbury and, if so, in what direction and for what reason.

I must refer the noble Lord to the Answer I gave on Monday, the 9th inst., to a written Question on this subject from the hon. Member for Kerry, S.† Since that Answer was given, the Government have now been definitely advised that the arrangement referred to in that Answer. and in the unofficial letter quoted in the noble Lord's Question is not legal possible, having regard to the fact that a school must, as the board are not advised, be properly equipped as public elementary school before the local authority can properly maintain it. I am sorry this should be so, as I should

† See col. 967.

like to have seen carried out proposals made before the new ruling, but this seems now impossible both in Mr. Cadbury's and other cases.

Education Bill

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, in view of the fact that at least £1,000,000 would be necessary for the purposes of the Education Bill introduced by him today, what amount will be allocated to Ireland by way of an equivalent grant, and to what purposes it will be devoted.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Sir H. CAMPBELL BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

The hon. Gentleman's Question is entirely premature, and I cannot give any Answer to it at present.

Engineer's Report on Cainan Canal

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, whether he will allow the engineer's Reprot on the Crinan Canal, which was brought before the Canal Coommission by the secretary to the Commissioners for the Crinan and Caledonian Canals, to be printed and laid upon the Table of the House.

The publication of such Reports lies with the Commissioners, and is not within the jurisdiction of the Secretary for Scotland.

Royal Irish Constabulary

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether members of the Royal Irish Constabulary are required to swear that they will not join any secret society; whether this regulation applies to freemasonry; and, if not why such a distinction is drawn.

The Answer to the first inquiry is in the affirmative, and to the second in the negative. The terms of the oath are prescribed by statute, 6 William IV., cap. 13, section 17, the Society of Freemasons being expressly excluded from the prohibition applying to secret societies.

Are not the members of the constabulary forbidden to join the Good Templars? I understood so from the right hon. Gentleman the other day.†

I understand the Good Templars would come under the category of secret societies.

asked who had the delicate duty of deciding what is a secret society.

I presume that the constabulary authorities give the best interpretation they can of the terms of the statute.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiry and see whether it is not the fact that this has been the cause of much of the unpopularity of the force?

[No Answer was returned].

I beg to ask whether the Chief Secretary can state what percentage are registered as Catholics in the various ranks of the Royal Irish Constabulary, including constables, acting-sergeants, sergeants, head constables, district inspectors, and county inspectors.

I am informed by the Inspector-General that on December 31st last the percentages of Catholics in the various ranks of the Royal Irish Constabulary were as follows:—Constables, seventy-five; acting-sergeants, sixty-seven; sergeants, seventy-two; head constables, sixty-seven; district inspectors, twenty-nine; and county inspectors, eleven.

Constable Anderson

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state where Constable Anderson, late of Kiltimagh, is now stationed; and whether any complaints have been made against him since his transference from Kiltimagh.

I am informed by the Inspector-General that Constable John Anderson, formerly of Kiltimagh, was

† See Col. 517.

stationed at Aughnacloy, County Tyrone, up till the 10th inst., when he was transferred to County Meath. It would be contrary to practice to give information as to any disciplinary complaints made against a constable.

Reduction of Rents, County Down

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Land Commission have made any, and, if so, what, effort to ascertain if the Earl of Annesley and the Marquess of Downshire have withdrawn their scales of voluntary reductions for second-term rents in the county of Down; whether the withdrawal is attributed by the Land Commission to the fact that the Sub-Commission, of which Mr. M'Connell is a member, have been giving smaller reductions than the landlords themselves were willing to agree to; and, if not, whether he can state for what reason the scale of voluntary abatements was withdrawn.

I have referred this Question to the Land Commission, who inform me that they have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member's similar Question of Wednesday last.† Hon. Members may supply themselves with information. Obviously I have none.

Yes, Sir, I did. I replied that the Judicial Commissioners could not give any reply.

Portadown Urban District Council

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received from the. Portadown Urban District Council a representation setting forth the impossibility of collecting rates from poor people occupying houses valued at £4 and under; and whether he will introduce a Bill to amend the Law relating to the collection of rates, so as to make the landlord responsible for the payment of rates on this class of property.

I beg to refer to the Answer which I gave to a similar Question put by the hon. Member for West Cavan on Wednesday last.‡

Appointment of Temporary Assistant Commissioners

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland how many applications were received for appointment to the positions of temporary Assistant Commissioners in the Land Commission; who conducted the examination into the capability and experience of the candidates; what tests were applied; and whether the Report of the examiner will be laid upon the Table of the House.

The total number of applications received was very large, and could not be given without a long search through the books in which the applications are recorded. It would be contrary to practice and precedent to state in detail the methods employed for selecting the best candidates, but I may say that the capacity and experience of land of each of the twenty-seven assistant commissioners whose term of office was expiring were carefully inquired into. The same process was followed with twenty-two new candidates of whom the five possessing the highest qualifications were selected. No formal Report was prepared. The responsibility for the appointments rests entirely with the Irish Government, which has satisfied itself that the changes in the staff of the Land Commission now effected will lead to increased efficiency.

Printing Contract of Mullingar Board of Guardians

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Mullingar Board of Guardians, for the third year in succession, have given their printing contract to the person whose tender was the highest submitted; whether this Board last year was surcharged by the auditor of the Local Government Board the difference between the accepted tender and the lowest sent in; whether the contractor refunded the amount of the surcharge; and whether he will state the name of this contractor, and on what grounds his contract was accepted.

The Local Government Board understand that the facts are substantially as stated. The Board are unable, however, to say whether the contractor refunded the amount of the surcharge. The name of the contractor is Mr. J. P. Hayden, Mullingar. His contract was accepted for the year 1905–6, on the grounds that he had a printing office in Mullingar, that he employs local labour, and that he pays the maximum rate of wages, thereby benefiting the district. The guardians also stated as grounds for accepting this contract, the convenience of checking proofs, giving instructions, etc., and that Mr. Hayden had given satisfaction in the past.

>Railway Extension in Ireland

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware of the need which exists for the extension of the railway from Killala to Ballycastle, in the county of Mayo, to develop the industries, especially the fishing industry, in a poor and populous district; and whether, seeing that the railway from Ballina to Killala, built by State aid and worked by the Midland Great Western Railway, has proved a success, and that the company has expressed its willingness to work an extension of the line to Ballycastle, he will give the matter his early attention.

I am informed that the question of railway extension from Killala to Ballycastle has frequently been brought under the notice of the Irish Government. I understand that Ballycastle is a market town of some importance, but that there is not much sea fishing carried on from it. I am not aware that the Midland Great Western Railway Company has expressed its willingness to work an extension to Ballycastle. In reply to the concluding inquiry I can only say that the claims of the district will receive consideration in conjunction with those of other districts, if further funds for railway extension should become available.

Fair Rents in County Down

* : I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether Mr. Justice Meredith, in giving judgment in seventy-three fair rent cases from county Down on Friday last, raised the sub-commission rents in thirty-two cases, reduced them in four, and confirmed thirty-seven cases; and if he can state who were the assistant, legal, and lay commissioners who fixed the rents appealed against; what is the name of Mr. Justice Meredith's assessor; and if he has had any experience of Ulster farming.

I regard this as a judicial matter. I am informed by the Land Commission that the cases referred to in the Question were the subject of judicial decisions by the Land Commission Court of Appeal. The cases were heard and the decisions pronounced in open Court, and the results appeared in the daily newspapers. I have no further information in the matter.

* : Is it possible to got the information as to who fixed the rents originally and as to whether the assessor who sat with Mr. Justice Meredith had any experience of Ulster farming when he reduced them?

The Commission consider that this was a judicial function and. it is not for them to give the information

* : Is the assessor a judicial functionary in any sense of the word? And can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether his salary is a matter subject to discussion in this House?

* : Very well, Sir; I can only say that I beg to give notice that immediately after the resumption of business after the Easter recess I shall call attention to this matter.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these rents were not fixed originally by Mr. Commissioner Bailey and whether he was not quite as good a judge of these matters as Mr. Commissioner Meredith.

Magowan and the Larne Council

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if, at the time of his appointment as relieving officer by the Lame Council, county Antrim, Magowan was ineligible; and, if so, why the Local Government Board has not annulled the election instead of waiting till Magowan became eligible, meanwhile leaving the poor and destitute of the district without a relieving officer.

Mr. Magowan was ineligible at the time of his appointment, but as he informed the Board of Guardians that he would dispose of his licensed premises, the Local Government Board, in accordance with their usual practice, gave him an opportunity of doing so. He has since done so, but until the licence has been legally transferred, the Local Government Board will not ratify the appointment. In the meantime it is the duty of the Guardians to make temporary provision for the discharge of the duties of the relieving officer.

Queen's Scholars and Second Grade Schools

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will say what special consideration, on the abolition of the results system in April, 1900, the Queen's scholars received who obtained special distinction at the final examinations in July 1897, 1898, and 1899, and who were thereby entitled to be placed in the second division of first, class after two years highly efficient service; how many of these, on becoming principals of second grade schools and having received their training diplomas, have been promoted to second grade; whether many of these teachers were placed at the minimum of third grade when the salaries were finally fixed in April, 1901; and whether all the cases of this class, who now only receive third grade salary, will receive special consideration at the forthcoming revision of salaries.

Queen's scholars who passed with special distinction in 1897 or 1898 and had two years good service to their credit either immediately before or immediately after April 1st, 1900, were as a rule granted the equivalent of the difference between second class salary and second division of the first class salary in their consolidated incomes under the new rules. Teachers who passed with special distinction in 1899 could not complete two years highly efficient service on or about April 1st, 1900, and in these cases the consolidated incomes were fixed under the new rules which provide for increments and promotions in connection with which passing with special distinction under the old rules receives consideration. The Commissioners inform me that each case was dealt with on its merits, and that they have plenary powers which have been liberally exercised, to raise on appeal the grant of consolidated income in cases in which the operation of the rule is deemed inequitable. No national schools are recognised as second grade schools; promotion in grade depends mainly on length and efficiency of service. Though in some cases training is essential, the possession of a training diploma does not in itself warrant promotion. The figures for which the hon. Member asks cannot be given without a careful examination of the records of the office which would take much time. The Commissioners inform me that they cannot promise special consideration at the forthcoming revision of salaries to teachers of the kind referred to who now receive third grade salary only, but they will consider any particular case brought under their notice which has not already been fully investigated.

The Bahr-el-Gazal Difficulty

I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question of which I have given him private notice. Namely, whether a settlement of the Bahr-el-Ghazal difficulty has been arrived at with the Congo Government.

A final settlement has not been come to, but a modus vivendi has been arranged pending negotiations for a definite settlement which will begin after Easter. In the meantime arrangements have been come to which will prevent any difficulty arising between Egyptian and Congo State posts and any confusion as to the administration of the country.

I beg to ask whether Congolese troops are now in occupation of Sudanese territory, as has been the case for some time past.

The modus vivendi is roughly this: any post occupied by a Congo State force subsequent to a certain date, about a year ago, will be withdrawn. Those that were there prior to that date will for the present remain, but the Administration of the disputed territory will be Sudanese.

New Bills

>Hours of Labour (Bakehouses) Bill

"To restrict the Hours of Labour in Bakehouses to forty-eight hours per week," presented by Mr. Wilkie; supported by Mr. James Haslam, Mr. Steadman, Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Thorne, and Mr. Jenkins; to be read a second time upon Tuesday 1st May, and to be printed. [Bill 172.]

National Galleries of Scotland Bill

"To establish a Board of Trustees to manage the National Galleries of Scotland; and for other purposes," presented by Mr. Sinclair; to be read a second time upon Tuesday 1st May, and to be printed. [Bill 173.]

Valuation (Ireland) Bill

"To effect an equitable administration of any new general Valuation in Ireland," presented by Mr. James O'Connor; supported by Mr. O'Malley and Mr. Field; to be read a second time upon Wednesday 25th April, and to be printed. [Bill 174.]

Adjournment of the House (Easter)

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

asked leave of the House to alter the terms of the Resolution† which he had put on the Paper relating to the adjournment for the Easter holidays, in order that the Seed Potatoes Supply (Ireland) Bill might be passed before the adjournment. It was a Bill of pressing importance which had just come down from the Grand Committee, and he believed that no impediment would be placed in the way of its passing through the remaining stages. He begged to move, "That this House, at the conclusion of the Afternoon Sitting this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, the 24th of April."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House, at the conclusion of the Afternoon Sitting this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, 24th April.

agreed that the Seed Potatoes Supply Bill ought to be passed.

asked whether this was not the Motion on which the general discussion on matters of policy must take place.

That is not quite so. In order to bring the business of the House to a conclusion it will be necessary to move, "That this House do now

† The Resolution as it. stood on the Paper was as follows: "Adjournment of the House (Easter), That this House do now adjourn until Tuesday, the 24th April."

adjourn," and on that question a general discussion may take place.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That this House, at the conclusion of the Afternoon Sitting this day, do adjourn until Tuesday, 24th April.—( Sir II. Campbell-Bannerman. )

Seed Potatoes Supply (Ireland) Bill

As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered; read the third time, and passed.

Adjournment of the House (Easter)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—( Sir II. Campbell-Bannerman. )

said, he desired to raise a question which had excited some misgiving in Ireland, and he thought justly. It referred to the termination of the employment by the Irish Government of some Assistant Temporary Land Sub-Commissioners, and the appointment in their place of other men. He wished to say at once that he did not raise the question with any intention of charging against the Irish Government political bias, because when the question was raised the other day, the Chief Secretary had disavowed any political bias in the action he had taken. He (Mr. Long) held, and had always held, that it was ridiculous in a country where we govern under a Parliamentary system to charge Ministers because they appointed men to offices who were political supporters of their own. If the alleged reasons which rendered the offices vacant were correct, and if the men appointed to till them were qualified, he thought it was absurd to blame a Minister because he selected supporters of his own to fill the offices. The case he wished to raise was totally different. He thought he would be able to show that, in the first place, the vacancies had been arbitrarily, unjustly, and even cruelly created, and that the appointments made to fill them had been made in an irregular manner. He admitted at once that the sub-Commissionerships had always been regarded as temporary appointments. It was quite obvious that that was necessary, because the work varied in character and extent as time went on, and as Acts of Parliament were altered. It was therefore necessary that the Government should have power to get rid of officers who were either inefficient or not required owing to decrease of work. In the present case these conditions did not obtain. So far as he could ascertain, whenever appointments had lapsed, if there had been nothing alleged against the conduct of the officers, who filled them, and if they had performed their duties creditably and satisfactorily to the Government, they were almost invariably reappointed. In this; particular case, five Assistant Commissioners had been dismissed in what he regarded as an arbitrary and cruel fashion, and, as he was informed, without any charge being made against them, without any complaint being addressed to them as to the performance of their duty, and without notice except of the most abrupt and sudden character. It was quite evident that they had not been got rid of owing to shortage of work, because five other gentlemen had been appointed in their places. If that statement of the case was correct, as he believed it was, surely the description he had given of it, that the discharge of these gentlemen, or the refusal of the Government to re-employ them, was unjust and cruel, was justified. Further, he would say that unless the Chief Secretary for Ireland was able to show that the statements made in Ireland were without foundation, the matter of these discharges must have a very injurious effect upon all those officials who held their offices subject to the determination of the Government. He was assured that no charge of inefficiency had ever been made against these gentlemen; no suggestion had been made that they were unfair in the performance of their duty. One of them, he understood, had been continuously employed for ten years, and at the time his employment was suddenly terminated, he had no less than fifty-four cases in hand, and was aware, owing to communications that had been made to him, that in addition to those fifty-four cases, there were at least 100 coming in with which he and his colleagues would have to deal. This particular Assistant Commissioner had been sent out upon a voyage of work. Only quite recently he had been given these cases to inquire into and was engaged upon them. Another fact which bore strongly upon the case was the circumstance that when the last Land Act was passed it was intimated to these Assistant Commissioners that as this Act would necessarily bring the land question in Ireland to a termination by change of ownership, and therefore avoid the necessity for fixing rents, they must not enter upon cases which they could not complete, and they must realise that the time would very soon come when there would be no need for their services. But the other day, when their period of three years was drawing to an end no intimation of this kind was made. On the contrary, it was intimated to them that they were to start upon their work afresh, and that there were many cases which would occupy their attention; in other words, that there was plenty for them to do, and therefore, they had no reason to believe that their services would not be required. So far as he was informed, they were perfectly competent officers against whom no complaints had been made by those who employed them. When he made that statement just now he heard an ironical criticism from one or two quarters of the House. He did not suggest for a moment that no complaints had been alleged against these Assistant Commissioners, because he thought the Archangel Gabriel, if he were minded to come down and take the office of Assistant Commissioner, would not be able to avoid criticism. Whatever the Assistant Commissioner did he was open to the charge either by the landlords that he had made the rent too low, or by friends of the tenants that he had fixed the rent too high, and anyone conversant with the question of land and rent in any other part of the country would agree that a more unenviable task than that of fixing rent between landlord and tenant could hardly be imagined. What he said was, that so far as his recollection went, no complaints had been made against these gentlemen by those who were responsible for their employment, that was, by the Land Commission or by the Irish Government. He should like to ask the Chief Secretary whether, when their services were dispensed with, the opinion of the Land Commissioners was taken, and whether the Commissioners were asked whether in their judgment these gentlemen were competent to do their work, and had performed their duties impartially and properly. He should also like to ask in how many cases appeals had been lodged against their decisions, and in how many cases the appeals were upheld. If there were no complaints made by their employers, if these gentlemen were competent to perform their duties, if they had discharged them for a long time to the complete satisfaction of the Irish Government, if the Land Commissioners did not express an adverse opinion, and if when appeals were lodged they were either few in number, or were dealt with satisfactorily, then he submitted that there was no possible justification for getting rid of these officials, unless it was the desire to put other men in their places. He was informed that when the present Secretary of State for India was responsible for the Irish Government, and when Mr. Gerald Balfour was responsible for it, unless there were records against the men proving them to be unfit for their places, if there was work for them to do they were invariably continued in their offices or re-appointed as vacancies arose. If that were true, then a new departure had been taken, which had naturally caused very much dissatisfaction in Ireland, and called for an explanation from the Chief Secretary as to why he had taken a new line with regard to these gentlemen, who were, after all, officials under the Government, and were, he believed, competent, honourable men trying their best to do their duty, and who naturally were to a large extent dependent upon the salaries which they had been drawing. In one case a gentleman assured him that not only had he been sent on a new tour of work, but, knowing as he did the number of cases in reserve, he had no reason whatever to believe that his services would be dispensed with. He was a considerable distance from his home actually engaged on the work, and the only intimation that he received that his services were to be dispensed with was a telegram which he got at 4 o'clock in the evening telling him that his office as a Temporary sub-Commissioner would terminate that evening. If that were true, and the information came to him from the gentleman himself, whatever they might think of the man they ought not to have treated him in that way. If the man was incompetent they ought to have told him so and to have given him decent notice. But in these particular cases the notice was of the shortest possible description, and the men were treated not merely unjustly but cruelly, because no opportunity was given to them to look elsewhere for work. It was also alleged that these men were had up to Dublin, where a series of questions was addressed to them by the Under-Secretary, and the impression left on the minds of some of these gentlemen was that the charge against them—if charge there were—was that they had not sufficiently reduced rents, and that on that ground their conduct had been unsatisfactory. But what were those men supposed to do? They were supposed to go out and fix the rents and there was an appeal against their decision. He submitted that it did not rest with any member of the Irish Government—certainly not with a permanent official—to express an opinion as to the just or unjust character of the rents; a conclusion could only be arrived at by men on the spot knowing the conditions of the farm and of the particular district. That being so, it was not a just ground of complaint against these men, and they had been unfairly and cruelly treated. He would now pass from the case of the men who had not been re-employed and come to the case of the men who had been put in their places. Here, again, he was not going to make any suggestion of political bias, because that he dismissed absolutely. He was not going to complain that these gentlemen were supporters of the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, because if it were true he saw nothing improper in that fact provided that the men were competent for the work they had to perform. But the Chief Secretary knew that during the time when Mr. Gerald Balfour was at the Irish office he arrived at an arrangement between the Irish Government, the Trearury, the Land Commission, and the Civil Service Commissioners, under which certain tests of examination were to be applied to any new sub-commissioners. During the short time that he (Mr. Long) was Chief Secretary, applications were made to him by gentlemen possessing the necessary qualifications—that was to say, persons who were practising barristers or solicitors of least six years standing, and who possessed an acquaintance with the value of land and knowledge of the principles of land surveying, and so on. The answer he sent to each application was that the application could only be considered on the understanding that they were prepared to submit themselves to that Civil Service test. That was a rule which had been adopted in regard to many other appointments of a somewhat analogous kind in the English Departments, and was, he thought, a very salutary oue. He was informed, however, that the new appointments in Ireland had been made without that examination being passed by the applicants. If that were true the rule must have been abrogated, and he wished to ask the Chief Secretary whether it was not the first instance in which the custom had been departed from since the rule was first passed. Why was it that in regard to these new appointments the conditions had not been enforced? He did not complain of the unfitness of the new candidates. He knew nothing about their unfitness, and the Chief Secretary had told the House the other day that he knew nothing about their politics. He himself did know the politics of one or two of these gentlemen, because no one could be in Ireland for any length of time without knowing the politics of gentlemen on one side or the other. But he attached no importance whatever to that aspect of the question. What he did say was that the men who had not been reappointed had been treated in an unfair manner, in a manner quite contrary to precedent, and in a manner cruel to them, because it left them no opportunity of obtaining fresh employment. Unless an arrangement of this kind could be justified it must have a bad effect on Civil servants generally. It was hard on those men who had given the best of their service to the Government of the country to be treated in a manner which they would not employ towards their own domestics. If, having given their defence, it was still decided not to employ them, then they should be given a reasonable opportunity of getting employment elsewhere and not left, as they had been, without reason, without justification, without any information at all, practically without notice to look elsewhere for work. They had been thrown away like an old glove. He regretted very much that it had been thought necessary for the Government to take action of this kind, because it was of the utmost importance that those who were employed by the Government should feel that their employment so long as they did their duty would be continuous, and that they would be treated at least as well as any private servant by a private individual.

said he was exceedingly anxious that the House should understand the importance and gravity of the question which had been raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin. It might be supposed by hon. Members who were not acquainted very intimately with Irish affairs that the question raised today was merely a question of the reappointment or the contrary of a few subordinate officials in Ireland. It was really a matter very far from that. It was one of the mightiest questions affecting the whole Irish problem which could possibly be raised. Indeed it was so important and serious that he and his friends intended on the very first day allocated to Irish Estimates after the Recess to bring the whole question forward in a serious manner, when a real issue could be raised. Today, of course, there could not be anything except a few desultory words from each side of the House. The question of rent-fixing in Ireland had, ever since the Act of 1881, been a most vital question, affecting not only the well-being and prosperity of the people, but the problem of Irish government and of order and peace in the country. The problem of the fixing of rents had become far more important since the Act of 1903, because the purchase price on which the tenants were acquiring their holdings under that Act was based entirely on the rents they were paying. At the time the Act was passed the period for the second revision of judicial rents had arrived. Therefore anything that bore on the fair fixing of this second rent, anything that bore on the belief of the people in a fair and impartial administration of the law in fixing the second-term rents, was of the most vital consequence to the whole Irish problem. That was the question which had been raised by the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that it had been the invariable custom at the end of three years to reappoint the commissioner.

said that so far as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin and his friends were concerned that had been the invariable rule, because the appointments were originally made by the right hon. Gentleman.

No, no. They were continuous, and I was referring to the appointments made by the present Secretary of State for India when he was Chief Secretary.

said he would like to know how many of these appointments terminated during the official régime of the present Secretary for India. His point was that the appointment of these temporary land commissioners for the fixing of fair rent in Ireland had been entirely in the hands of the landlord party in Ireland. They had been landlords, land agents, military officers, and "hangers-on" to a large extent in one shape or another of the landlord party, which was the ruling party during those years, and of course when the period of three years came to an end they were invariably reappointed by the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessors. The appointments were not only of men who were regarded by the people generally as landlord partisans, but they were Unionist appointments. The Irish Times, the organ of the Unionist Party in Ireland, had described these gentlemen as Unionists and Protestants. He for his part did not care in the least what the polities of a man were and still loss did he care what his creed was in a matter of this kind where the single fixing of fair rent was concerned. But in a transaction where an enormous mass of the people were Nationalists and Catholics it was a significant circumstance that not one of the men appointed to fix those rents was either a Nationalist or a Catholic. He would read to the House the names of some of the appointments which expired the other day: Bagot, Bomford, Craig, March, Mowbray, Owen Smith, Robinson, Augustus West, Bassett, Crowsdale, and so on. There was scarcely an Irish name amongst them. They all were the appointments of the Unionist landlord party in Ireland during the last twenty years, and they had been reappointed regularly when their period of service expired. His colleagues and he had every confidence that when the Chief Secretary came to deal with this matter he would bear in mind the added importance of these appointments by reason of the Act of 1903, and that he would not feel bound by the action of his predecessors of the Unionist and landlord party. He saw a statement the other day that the Nationalist complaint was that the right hon. Gentleman had not appointed their nominees, that they had furnished him with a list and had asked him to appoint their friends. That statement was absolutely untrue. During the twenty-five years he had been in this House he had never asked for an appointment or an emolument of the smallest kind from any Government for any friend of his, and that had always been the policy of the Nationalist Party. They had always refused to submit any names and had sent in no list, neither did they make any application on behalf of any single individual. He wished to point out, however, that the men whose appointments were now running out did not possess the confidence of the tenant farmers in Ireland, that they had been appointed by a Unionist landlord Government, that they had been kept in office by reappointments again and again, and the Chief Secretary was now asked as their term of office was running out to dispense with their services and to put in men whom he would select as being likely to fulfil their duties impartially. His (Mr. Redmond's) complaint was that the right hon. Gentleman had not done so, for he had reappointed the old hacks. It was true that he had refused to reappoint five out of twenty-seven, but all the rest he had reappointed the reappointments included those whom his Party and the tenant farmers regarded as the very worst amongst the men who had been recently actually raising rents on the second term revision. There were a great many people in Ireland who believed that a deliberate conspiracy for the purpose of keeping up or raising the price of land in Ireland had been entered into by these Commissioners and their friends Although it was common knowledge that the value of land had been going down in Ireland the nominees of the Unionist and landlord Party on the second revision of rents had been refusing reductions and in some cases had been actually raising rents. He was sorry to say that the head Commission had also been following in the same footsteps. This was a large question, which must be dealt with in a thorough way on the Estimates, and he would now confine himself simply to touching the fringe of the question. He wished to allude to a letter of a very significant character written by the son of a county Down farmer to one of the Irish papers. He did not know how far the Member for South Dublin was speaking as the Leader of the Ulster Party, but it would be interesting to know——

thought it would be an advantage to them if they had his services. It would be interesting to have the views of some representative of the Ulster tenant farmers upon this question. A son of a county Down farmer had written, pointing out that the Land Commission came to a decision the other day in seventy-three cases in that county. They were on appeal from the Judicial Commissioners. The Judicial Commissioners held their inquiry four years ago. Such was the delay in the process of the law in connection with land in Ireland. The head Land Commission confirmed thirty-nine of the decisions, actually raised the rents in thirty-three cases, and reduced the rents in four. That was to say that the proceedings of the head Land Commission, after the four years which had elapsed since the decisions were all come to, all tended in the direction of raising rents rather than the reduction of rents. Let him read this paragraph from the letter of the son of a tenant farmer in Down—

* said he was glad that the Irish Party had decided to raise this question as soon as possible after Easter. It could then be raised as an issue, and the House would understand clearly who among the Irish representatives were in favour of Irish agents being fixed by land agents and military officers. This was not a case where five men had been dismissed from the service of the Land Commission. There were twenty seven of these men who held temporary appointments for three years. Those who had been reappointed had only got warrants for one year. These were purely temporary appointments; and when the right hon. Gentleman said the Land Commission appointments were not temporary, he was entirely wrong.

* said that in addition there were twenty-five men who had permanent positions on the staff of the Commission. These temporary appointments were only made to take up work which the permanent officials could not reach, and were liable to be cancelled directly the work was done. The twenty - seven appointments which were of a temporary character expired on 31st March last. The Government, in his opinion, renewed warrants which they should not have renewed. They had renewed a certain number for twelve months only, and had allowed five to expire. In place of the five men whose warrants had expired they had appointed five new men. He did not care whether rents were fixed by Catholics or Protestants, although whether they were fixed by Nationalist or Tories was another question. Really it was high time that the House should understand what this question meant in Ireland. He heard gentlemen talking with the greatest liberality that they did not care who got the offices; but they must bear in mind that the Tory Government had been in office in Ireland practically for the last twenty years. If any one knowing Ireland would take up a list of the appointments they would be greatly astonished at it. There were twenty-one purchase Commissioners who had all been appointed by the Tory Government. They were all the nominees of landlords. The Duke of Abercorn and Lord Londonderry had recommended more men on that staff than any two men in Ireland. Of these gentlemen who were supposed to be perfectly impartial, twenty were Protestants and Unionists, and one was a Catholic. These figures were for 1905, but if hon. Members took the list at large they would see that in 1902 of sixty-two Commissioners twenty were Catholics and the rest Protestants. It was all very well for the right hon. Member for South Dublin to talk about men being dismissed, but was it not high time that Catholics and Liberals who had stood by Liberalism, should have a look in? He saw nothing unreasonable in that. He happened to know that four of the five men who had been appointed were Nationalists, and one was an Ulster Liberal. These other men had all been appointed during the last ten or fifteen years by Tory Governments who, on the commendation of landlords in Ireland, had appointed men who were friends of the landlords. He had not the slightest hesitation in saying that the great mass of these Commissioners were men wedded to the landlord's view, otherwise they would not have been appointed. It was nothing outrageous that when a Liberal Government got into power they should seek to give the mass of the people a chance on the Irish Land Commission. These men had not been dismissed. Their warrants simply had not been renewed. He had known dozens of warrants expire in the same way during the last twenty years, and not a word had been said about it, because the work was done. He had the same fault to find with the Chief Secretary as the hon. Member for Waterford had. He thought the right hon. Gentleman ought not to have made some of the appointments. He had reappointed half a dozen men whom the Liberal Government might have been expected to send about their business. When the Estimates came on for discussion this question would have to be probed to the very bottom, and the House must be shown the kind of work that was being done by these men. It was not a question of prejudice. He sometimes thought that he could detect in the Chief Secretary's answers on the Land Commission evidence of a slight lack of sympathy for the tenants. These rents which were now raised were fixed four years ago, first of all by the Legal Commissioner, whom the right hon. Member for Dover thought so highly of that he actually appointed him one of the Estates Commissioners to work the new Land Act. Along with him in county Down were two sub-Commissioners Mr. Samuel Byers and Mr Wilson. These three men fixed the rents in seventy-three cases. Four years elapsed. Let them think of a tenant farmer waiting four years for the landlord to appeal against fair rent decisions, and not knowing where he was. Mr. Justice Meredith knew nothing about the value of land. The single assessor also knew nothing about Ulster farming. Mr. Justice Meredith, and this single Commissioner as an assessor, went to county Down and sat on these seventy-three cases; they raised the rents in thirty-nine cases. The assessor was not a judicial person. His salary was on the Votes, and it would be challenged at the very first opportunity. What was the meaning of all this? Let them imagine men with the shadow of Canadian cattle over the Irish farmer—and that was a very real thing for them to look forward to, because many men in Ireland believed that it would be impossile ultimately to keep them out, and that meant 25 per cent. off Irish agriculture. Let them fancy raising these rents in the face of a calamity that might come and sweep all the profit out of Irish farming. There was no remedy for that. The right hon. Gentleman had complained because the Chief Secretary had appointed five men. It was high time that they should have some prejudice in Ireland in favour of the tenants. Hitherto the prejudice had been all in favour of the landlords. Did the Conservatives imagine that though the Liberals were in office they (the Conservatives) were to remain in power; that though the Liberals were at the Castle the Tories were to be in power everywhere in Ireland? That was what the Tories were trying to work all the time.

* said that those who had lived in Ireland a great deal longer than the right hon. gentleman knew the facts. This was not only a question of raising rents on the tenant. There was an overwhelming feeling taking possesion of Ulster that a deliberate conspiracy was on foot, and that the Land Commission was a party to it. Let them make no mistake. What had been done was to force up the rents in order to raise the purchase-price of the land. The nominees of the landlords were going about fixing the rents, and one of the Commissioners had actually raised the rents on the Downshire estate when the sale was absolutely in the hands of the negotiators. What did that mean? I meant "Make terms with your adversary quickly." It was hard enough on the tenant to have to pay an increased rent, but it was a greater injustice to have the value of the land increased fictitiously. He held that in making many of these appointments the Chief Secretary had committed a grievous error. He did not deny that he had personally pointed out to the Chief Secretary that these men were the nominees of the Tory Government, recommended by Tory landlords; that many of them were land agents and military officers. He had begged the right hon. Gentleman to go into the records of all these men, and see where they came from, what their qualifications were, and what they had done. The result was that only five were released from duty, and five new men appointed; but twenty-two had been left at large to go on with their work. He would not say that in the case of all the twenty-two their warrants should not have been renewed. On the contrary. He had never asked that the whole twenty-seven should be dismissed, but only that the Government should consider that this was a serious national issue. He asked the Chief Secretary to look at the credentials of these twenty-seven men and to look at the credentials of other twenty-seven men. But instead of doing that the right hon. Gentleman had appointed men who in the past had been forcing up rents, and who, protected by the Appeal Court, would continue their unholy work.

said that when the hon. Member for South Tyrone made a speech it always acted as a tonic upon him. That hon. Gentleman and the hon. and learned Member for Waterford had spoken a good deal about the Downshire Estates, and had told the House, with all the force they were capable of, that the Land Commission was taking part in a deliberate conspiracy to force up the rents with the view of the landlord getting a higher price for his land. Such a statement was a very grave one. It was as grave as saying that one of the Judges of His Majesty's High Court of Justice in England had deliberately given a judgment against the law or the facts of a case. He repeated that it was a very grave statement to make, but every man in Ireland; who looked at the facts without prejudice would say that the statement was absolutely unfounded. Judge Meredith had had a most distinguished and meritorious career, and statements of that kind could have no other object than to force this gentleman to give decisions contrary to what he thought was just. That was a very serious action for anyone to take. As to the Downshire Estates it was well known that there were no estates where the tenants had got on so well with the landlords, yet because the Commission had raised one or two rents in Ireland a complaint was made.

said that out of the thousands of cases which came before the Chief Commissioner in Ireland the hon. Member thought that because in a few cases he had raised rents, his action was unfair. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford had said that the Land Commission was deliberately tending to raise the rent of land in Ireland. That was a very strong expression, especially coming from the hon. Member for Waterford, who led so large a Party in this House. It was a most grave accusation to make against the Commissioners. He might ask hon. Members who were not intimately connected with Ireland and who did not know anything about the land question there, to ask themselves what was the object of setting up an appeal to the First Commissioner. He had never before heard that Court spoken of in the terms in which it had been spoken of today, and it seemed absurd for the Government to set up an Appeal Court and then for this House to do all in its power to discourage landlords from availing themselves of that Court. It was technically true that the temporary Land Commissioners had not been dismissed, but as a matter of fact that was the case. There never had been a case in which sub-Commissioners had been refused a renewal of their engagements, except when the personnel of the Land Commission had been reduced or the men had been shown to be incompetent. This set of men, however, had been deliberately set aside for the purpose of putting in another set of men. He wanted to know if the Chief Secretary could show them that the men who had been put in were better men than those who had been displaced. If he could not do that a grave injustice had been done. The hon. Member for South Tyrone had gone further and said that not only should these five men be put aside but that the whole twenty-seven should have been similarly dealt with.

* said that he pointed out expressly that there were men on the Commission with whom he could be satisfied, but that there were others with whom he could not be satisfied. He said that the Government should examine into the qualifications of all the men and get the best they could.

was obliged to the hon. Member for his explanation and apologised for saying that the hon. Gentleman had gone as far as he usually did. He was glad that he was willing that some of the twenty-seven men should remain. If this system was to obtain in Ireland the Justiciary of the Court would have to change with every change of Government. English Members would know that that was a very serious thing indeed. The Chief Secretary had by his action dealt a blow at the esteem in which the Land Commission was held, not only by the landlords but by the tenants. Under the circumstances it appeared that their best policy was to use the Land Purchase scheme so that the necessity for the Land Commission should disappear in a short time. He trusted the Chief Secretary would let them know very clearly upon what principle these new temporary sub-Commissioners were appointed, and how far he proposed to carry out the principle. He had no doubt that the chief fault found with the assistant Commissioners was that they were appointed by the Unionist Government. Perhaps the Chief Secretary would explain whether that was the reason.

That had nothing to do with the matter.

said that whatever was the cause of the line of action adopted by the right hon. Gentle- man, they and everyone in Ireland would be glad to hear as to why these temporary assistant Commissioners' services had been dispensed with. The appointment of these Commissioners was a very important matter, because it had always been held from the establishment of the Land Commission that gentlemen who were appointed to these extremely difficult and delicate positions of Land Commissioners or sub-Commissioners should have a tenancy of considerable length. It stood to reason that if they were going to appoint a man to fulfil such delicate duties if he was given only a tenancy of one or three years they could not expect to get as good a man as if he were given a longer or a permanent tenure. For what period had these Commissioners been appointed?

thought that such a period of appointment was very dangerous in practice.

thought that to hold over a new Commissioner that he was only there for one year was a very dangerous course to pursue. It was a practice which was not in accordance with the course of legal appointments.

said they were quasi legal appointments. The duties these Gentlemen had to perform were as difficult and delicate, and had more influence upon public opinion than many of the duties performed by those who held legal appointments. If men were to perform such difficult duties they ought to have a longer tenure of office than even three years, and they certainly should be appointed for more than one year.

* thought that anyone at all acquainted with the matter would know that it was absolutely impossible in the choice of sub-commissioners to please both landlords and tenants. It occurred to him that if a sub-commissioner was tolerably well abused by both parties there was some chance that he had been reasonably impartial. In his long experience, not as a landlord or tenant, but as a counsel practising before the courts, he had never heard a good word said of a sub-commissioner either by landlord or tenant. He did not intend to continue the discussion on the relative merits of the sub-commissioners appointed, because he thought it would be idle. He thought he had a certain rough equity in his favour when he raised another question, because the Motion before the House, to give Members their Easter holidays had deprived him of an opportunity which had fallen to him under the ballot of bringing before this House a much more important question than the qualification of five sub-commissioners, and that was the very grave position of affairs at present in Ireland owing to the block in regard to the operation of the Land Purchase Act of 1903. An unfortunate state of things had been brought about by the want of both money and men to make the Irish Land Purchase Act of 1903 work as rapidly as was desirable. He proposed to treat the matter as uncontroversial, or at all events as little controversial as any matter affecting Ireland could be amongst Irishmen. He believed, however, that all parties in Ireland looked to the Act of 1903 as something in the nature of a Treaty of Peace. It was hoped by all that it might, if fairly carried out, be the means of putting an end for ever to the miserable land question. There had been several Land Purchase Acts before the Act of 1903 which had on the whole worked well. The Act of 1885 commonly called Lord Ashbourne's Act—the first Land Purchase Act of any real utility—provided a sum of £5,000,000, which was rapidly absorbed, and in 1887 a further sum of £5,000,000 was provided. In 1891 power to make advances amounting roughly to £30,000,000 was granted. The sales under these Acts were very numerous, but naturally it was the estates of persons who were most anxious to sell or who had to sell that came first into the market, and probably before the Bill of 1903 was introduced practically all estates which could be attracted into the market by the terms offered under the former Acts had been sold, and land purchase had come to a standstill. The Act of 1903 had been described as an Act of compulsion by inducement. It offered inducements to both parties, and he thought that fact had not been lost sight of by either. It offered the tenant a lower rate of interest, and gave an extension of time in which to pay the instalments. It gave the landlords the inducement of the bonus of 12 per cent. and some simplification with regard to procedure. They had hoped that under that Act they would get rid of the tremendous incubus of the Irish Land Commission in its rent fixing capacity. That process of rent fixing had been an enormous cost to the taxpayers of the country. An enormous staff had to be kept up, and the salaries of a number of judicial and quasi-judicial Commissioners had to be paid. He did not, however, lay so much stress upon the cost as upon the general evils of the whole system of fixing fair rents. That system perhaps became inevitable from the general course of events in Ireland, and he quite recognised that the duties of the Land Commission could not come to an end until the Land Purchase Act had rendered its operations no longer necessary. Still, there was nothing he, and he believed anyone who knew Ireland, would more gladly see than this rent fixing come to an end. Not only was it a terrible burden on the country, but there had been a worse burden both on landlords and on tenants in the cost of fixing rents, in the expense of witnesses and expert witnesses, in the loss of time and temper, and frequently in the breaking up of amicable relations between landlord and tenant. The sooner they could get rid of the rent fixing work by the operation of the Act of 1903 the better. English and Welsh Members had very little idea of the terrible incubus the Land Commission was to Ireland. The tenant considered his rent too high, or he wished to get the advantages of fixity of tenure. The vast majority of the tenants in the West of Ireland held under rents probably not exceeding £6 per year. Each of these considered he should get a reduction of rent and the advantages of the Land Act. He commenced proceedings, and then after some months both parties got notice of a sitting of the Irish Land Commission to hear the case. The tenant went to the town, which might be a considerable distance from his place of residence. He employed a solicitor and brought witnesses, including a land valuer, or perhaps more than one. He had perhaps to hang about for two or three days until his case was reached, and hanging about in an Irish county town was generally found pretty dry work, and involved considerable expense. The landlord had to incur expenses similar to the tenants—often greater. When the case came on perhaps the tenant's rent was reduced from £6 to £4 10s., or £4, and that was the result of probably several days lost and considerable expense. That meant loss not only of time but of temper, and the employment of counsel and solicitors and great expense. Then in the case of rents even as small as £2 he had seen appeals taken to the superior tribunal. This caused delay, perhaps amounting, as the hon. Member for South Tyrone had stated, to four years before the trial came on, and during that period the tenant naturally did not care much to improve his holding, and in many cases he allowed it to deteriorate for fear of adversely affecting the decision when it was inspected by the Commission valuers. At the end of that time there was perhaps a small reduction of the rent fixed by the sub-Commissioners, or it might be raised, or confirmed, but at what cost of time, of money, of worry, and of annoyance to both parties! When the tenant had passed through the ordeal, however, he was all right for fifteen years. But what was the position of the landlord, who might have several hundred tenants on his property, and who might go into Court any day? It was perfectly correct to say that in the case of large estates, the estates had never since 1881, been free from litigation with its attendant cost. Could any country prosper under such conditions? But there was another and wider reason for wishing to see rent-fixing cease. They wanted to see the land question settled once and for all. They wanted to see the land war which had devastated Ireland for twenty-six years and had led to crime and outrage unspeakable, and had led Irishmen to regard each other as worse foes even than the foreigner, or the Saxon, brought to an end. They wished to see a settlement as the only chance of peace and contentment in Ireland. What were the obstacles in the way? The Land Act of 1903, he gladly admitted, had proved a success even beyond the anticipatoins of the right hon. Member for Dover, who introduced it. Advances had down to the end of January this year been applied for in connection with sales under the Act, amounting to £32,688,866. But unfortunately up to the present there had been nothing like that amount of money for the carrying out of those sales. How did that operate? The moment agreements were signed under which the tenants were to purchase their holdings the landlord ceased to be a landlord. He ceased to receive rent. He was entitled to receive only 3½ per cent. upon the agreed purchase money. The tenant, on the other hand, instead of getting a terminable annuity immediately, became liable to pay an interminable interest, and his becoming a freeholder was deferred until the cash was handed over to the landlord. He himself knew of many instances of people who had sold more than two years ago, whose titles had been passed, and yet they had not got their money. Therefore the tenants had remained, paying interest and the landlord, instead of getting his money, which he could probably invest at a better rate of interest than 3½ per cent., if an absolute owner, only received that rate from the tenants, even when it could be recovered from them. It was perfectly wonderful to him how many sales had taken place, and how many landlords had recognised the spirit of the principle of peace embodied in the Act by being willing to sell their estates although there had been very little prospect of their getting ready money for them. He did not forget the fact that it was not estimated that sales would be so rapid, but it was very urgently necessary that the money should be forthcoming, because it was very hard on both landlord and tenant. The tenants were clamouring for compulsory purchase, and he had every sympathy with them, but that could not come if there was no money to pay people who were willing to sell under voluntary purchase. Many landlords were being subjected to very unpleasant pressure to sell their estates, and a good many upon whom this pressure was brought to bear were willing to sell provided they could get cash, but they could not sell if the time for payment was to be deferred for three, four, or five years, or even for an indefinite time. An unencumbered owner might be able to sell his estate and accept 3½ per cent., but a heavily encumbered landlord could not afford to do so, as he had to pay perhaps 6 per cent. interest while he was receiving 3½per cent. It was very necessary that the Government should consider very carefully, if there were any amendment of the Act, the question of putting the case of encumbered estates first and allowing them to be paid ready money where available, because of the absolute necessity in case of encumbered owners of getting money to pay off the encumbrances. Another matter he heard with some dismay the other night. It was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman that the Land Commission staff would not be able to deal even with existing sales for four years. If that were so the land-purchase staff ought to be very much strengthened. Every one knew that the illustrious Judge, Mr. Justice Meredith, was overworked, and in addition to his duties on the Commission in carrying out the Act he had very often to go away as President of the Court to consider appeals in the country. The question of the appointment of a permanent or temporary Judge to assist Mr. Justice Meredith ought certainly not to delay the carrying out of these great reforms. He was sure the matter was engaging the attention of the Chief Secretary, but it was becoming everyday more and more urgent, and he was glad to acknowledge that the right hon. Gentleman had already promised a very considerable additional sum of money towards the working of the Act; but in addition to more money they wanted the further assistance in the Court of the Land Commission to facilitate the business of land settlement which was absolutely necessary for the welfare of Ireland.

said he had had the pleasure of being between two fires, and he was rather in a doubt whether to turn to the front or the rear in answering the very opposite charges brought against the Government. He would begin with what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin in reference to the non-reappointment of certain Commissioners. He must acknowledge at once, and that very cordially, the action of the right hon. Gentleman in entirely disassociating himself from any suggestion that the action of the Irish Government or his action in particular had been actuated by political motives. As he told the right hon. Gentleman some days ago, political motives had not entered into that matter at all. He did not quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman, however, in thinking that if he had allowed politics to come in, there would be no objection to his doing so. He confessed he thought politics ought not to come into these matters at all.

I did not, mean to convey that. All I said was that all other things being equal I did not think a Minister ought to be condemned because he appointed a man who was a supporter of the Government.

said that reminded him of a Scotch Judge who said he never appointed his cousin unless it were a case of ceteris paribus , but nearly always the cetera were paria . But these appointments, as the right hon. Gentleman had admitted, were temporary appointments, but he said that prima facie they ought to appoint those who were appointed before. He did not agree with that at all. He thought it was only a question of the best men. But the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that at any rate there ought to have been longer notice given. Well, if any one of the five not reappointed suffered in any way by not having longer notice he was sorry for it. He must say that the time to deal with those matters was very short, altogether and all the temporary Commissioners had this kind of notice—that their qualifications were all scrutinised and examined some time before the 31st March, and therefore they all had notice that the whole matter was being reconsidered, and that it was quite possible they might not be reappointed. There was also a very general belief in Ireland that a number of now appointments would be made, which was testified to by the fact that such an immense number of applications came in for employment in that way. Almost every one in Ireland who did not want to be a resident magistrate wanted to be an Assistant Commissioner, and many of them were willing to serve the Irish Government in both capacities. Therefore he thought those gentlemen all had reason to know that their appointments were expiring and that they need not expect that they would be renewed. The right hon. Gentleman had asked whether the opinion of the Land Commission was taken. Of course communication did pass, but the right hon. Gentleman knew it would be entirely contrary to precedent to disclose communications of that kind, which necessarily were confidential and derived their whole value from being confidential. The right hon. Gentleman had also asked what appeals there had been from the decisions of these Assistant Commissioners. He was afraid he could not possibly tell him without longer notice. Their services extended over some years, and it would be quite impossible for him without notice to tell how many appeals there had been and what was the result of the appeals. As the right hon. Gentleman would remember, there had been many cases previously, not only where people had proved their inefficiency but where they were removed because it was thought their work would not be wanted and where fresh men were appointed, and even there the fact that a man was appointed before was not deemed evidence that he would be appointed again. It was clear therefore that the fact of a man being appointed before did not give him a title to be appointed again. The right hon. Gentleman had also asked why the examination rule which had been laid down by a former Chief Secretary, the late Member for Central Leeds, was not employed in this case. He did not at all say that it might not be well sometimes to employ it. Perhaps it ought to be reintroduced, but in this particular case he came to the conclusion that it was not necessary, because there was the amplest knowledge of the special qualifications of the new candidates who were to be appointed, and it would have been a farce to subject them to examination of that kind to prove that they had knowledge the possession of which they had already proved by the work they had done. Let him say in regard to what was said by the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, that his statement that he made no suggestion to him on the subject required no confirmation from him, but he was glad to have the opportunity of stating—what he intended to have said anyhow—that no suggestion for the appointment of any person reached him either from the hon, and learned Member for Waterford, or from any one of his colleagues. What was the position which he found when March 31st was approaching, and those temporary Commissioners' terms were running out? He found they had all been appointed for three years only. Every one knew that his services might be dispensed with, and they were not civil servants in any sense of the word. None of them had any claim—not even a negative claim—to be reappointed, and cases had frequently occurred before in. which persons who had been appointed one time were not reappointed afterwards. Under these circumstances he had to consider what was the proper thing to do. Was he to continue these men in the employment merely because they had been employed heretofore if better men could be found to do the work? It would have been much easier for him to continue them than to scrutinise the qualifications of all the candidates who applied. The work was extremely important, requiring the highest measure of knowledge, capacity, and care. It was always important, but it was doubly important at this moment, because, these rents were now taken as the standard upon which the system of land purchase was based and the purchase-price had reference to the rent fixed. Under these circumstances it was important to obtain the best possible men. He had asked himself whether the men who had been doing this most important work were the best possible obtainable. Extremely careful inquiries were made into the qualifications of the candidates for employment, and he found amongst the new candidates a number who were decidedly and conspicuously better than some of those who had been acting as Assistant Commissioners. He was satisfied that these men had more knowledge of land and more experience than at least five of the gentlemen out of the twenty-seven whose term had expired.

knew nothing of their politics. He was informed that they were not all Nationalists; but whether they were or not was a matter of perfect indifference to him. No question as to their politics, their religion, or whether they were landlords' or tenants' men was put to them. He knew nothing except that these were better men, and no one had ever impeached the capacity or experience of the five gentlemen appointed. With such important work to be done it was absolutely necessary to get the best men to do it. He believed there would now be greater confidence in the Assistant Commissioners, and the work of land purchase would go more smoothly. The question raised by the hon. Member for Waterford was one of the utmost importance, but whether any of the existing Commissioners were, as the hon. Member alleged, landlords' hacks he could not say, as he had no information beyond what had recently reached him as to their capacity. He certainly could not proceed upon the basis of interfering with the action they had taken in regard to fixing rents, and he could not think of constituting himself a court of appeal from the Commissioners in regard to fair rents. In reference to what had been said about Mr. Justice Meredith, he believed him to be a man of the highest character, and he had no reason to doubt that he brought a fair and unbiassed mind to bear upon his decisions.

said he was glad to have that statement withdrawn. The Irish Government endeavoured to get for this difficult work the most capable men—men with the largest knowledge of the land and best fitted to inspire confidence. He was trying to get men absolutely free from bias to hold the scale of justice perfectly evenly between landlord and tenant, In this particular case, he believed he had corrected certain obvious deficiencies in the Assistant Land Commissioners. How much more remained to be done he would have to consider. This was one of the most difficult as well as most important questions which came before the Irish Government. Having upon this question failed to give complete satisfaction to either side, he cherished the hope that he had taken a safe middle course.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my Question about the block in carrying out land purchase for want of funds?

said there had been a serious block in carrying out land purchase work, but that block was not primarily due to want of money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had undertaken to find a sum of £10,000,000 in the next twelve months for the operations of the Estates Commissioners, and the Commissioners thought that would be as much as they could deal with. If they could deal with estates faster, they could have a larger sum in the following year. Their staff seemed somewhat inadequate, and he had under consideration whether the staff could not be increased. The Government would do all that could be done to accelerate the progress of this most beneficent work of land purchase.

called the attention of the House to the fact that every British soldier had been deprived, without the authority of Parliament, of his one independent protection against the caprice of courts-martial and of the tyranny of the War Office. From the time of George I. until last year every soldier was entitled, after conviction by a court-martial, to an independent inquiry by a trained lawyer who was absolutely independent of the War Office. The Judge Advocate-General was in former times a Member of this House and a member of the Government; he had direct access to the Sovereign, and was responsible to the House of Commons. According to the Secretary of State for War the officer now known as Judge Advocate-General was a subordinate of the War Office and had no right of access to the Sovereign and no independent authority whatsoever, and was not responsible to this House. If Mr. Milvain were to come to the conclusion that the decision of a court-martial was irregular and wrong, and if the Secretary of State might say that he did not agree with him and that he thought it was regular and right, the House of Commons would know nothing about it, and they should have no right to ask what advice Mr. Milvain had given to the Secretary of State. If Parliament chose to carry out such a great constitutional change he should do his best to resist it, but Parliament had done nothing of the kind. He declared—and he hoped he would carry with him a considerable degree of support—that the Government had no authority whatever to make any change of the kind. Simmons, an acknowledged authority on the subject of courts-martial, in his standard work, said—

"The Judge Advocate-General is a Parliamentary officer, appointed on a change of Ministry, and holding office by Letters Patent under the Great Seal. He is sworn of the Privy Council and is the responsible adviser of the Crown as to the legality of all general courts-martial held in the United Kingdom."

He did not know that Mr. Milvain had been sworn of the Privy Council. He was told that Mr. Milvain had been appointed by Letters Patent. Prior to 1870 it might be said that the British Army was peculiar to a class. Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Card well when they abolished purchase made it the possession of the nation. They made it what it was now, the people's Army, fighting the battles of the people, consisting of people paid by the people through their representatives in the House of Commons. The War Office was the natural enemy of the soldier; this House was his natural friend, for the soldier, however humble his rank, looked to this House in the last resort, being not merely a soldier but a free-born Englishman, Scotchman, or Irishman, as a sure defence and shield, and they would be unworthy of their past traditions and the people who sent them to Parliament if they allowed the soldier to be deprived of the right, and if they allowed themselves tamely to be divested of the powers which had been entrusted to them. He was afraid that the War Office had been playing upon the innocence of his right hon, friend. They had put some strange ideas into his head, which he had faithfully communicated to the House. They told him that Mr. Milvain was a permanent member of the Civil Service, but he was not. If he were he would be entitled to a pension, and he was not so entitled. They had told his right hon. friend that the constitution of this office had been altered in accordance with the Report of the Esher Committee. He had studied that Report, and he had not found any recommendation that the office should be changed or any recommendation on the subject at all. He maintained that the Judge Advocate-General by the law and constitution of this country was a member of the Executive Government, that he held office by precisely the same tenure as Sir Robert Finlay when he was Attorney-General, and the right hon. and learned Member for Trinity College, and that he ought to have gone out with the late Government. The same power which appointed him could dismiss him, and if the Secretary of State for War was wise he would humbly advise his Majesty to revoke these Letters Patent before the House met again. They wanted the Judge Advocate-General in the House. They wanted to go back to the old system. It might be a Conservative principle, but it was one in favour of liberty; it protected the soldier and it ought to be revived. It was a principle which, he submitted, no adequate power existed, except Parliament, to alter in any degree. Having, since he last spoke conditionally on this matter, further examined it, he now said without condition that the appointment of Mr. Milvain was a scandalous job. It was carefully concealed from the late House, and was made at least three weeks before that House was prorogued for ever. It was a serious matter that this appointment should be taken up and defended by the present Secretary of State for War. The right hon. Gentleman was a high prerogative man. He might have been a Tory Minister in the days of the Stuarts. When asked the other day who would have the power of dismissing Mr. Milvain he said "His Majesty." Was ever such an answer given to a Member of Parliament before? He did not know whether it was in order, but it was certainly unconstitutional. The right hon. Gentleman might think that, surrounded by the military geniuses of the Army Council and the financial geniuses of the War Office, he could wipe his boots on the House of Commons; but he doubted very much whether he would find this House quite so passive and convenient a door-mat as the late Prime Minister found its predecessor. He would venture upon the prediction that if the right hon. Gentleman tried a fall with the House of Commons it was not the House of Commons that would go down.

said that he had considerable sympathy with the attack which had been made on the appointment of Mr. Milvain. It was made in September, 1905. Quite apart from the circumstances surrounding this particular appointment, he agreed with the hon. Member for Northampton that a grave constitutional question arose. He did not think his hon. friend had used too strong a word when he said that the appointment in the circumstances was a scandal. When the appointment was made the Government of the day were tottering to their fall, and they, when Parliament was not sitting and when they could not be questioned on the matter, changed the position of Judge Advocate-General; they undertook that they had power to appoint him for life. His right hon. friend the Secretary for War was not responsible for the appointment. He hoped the House would not think that he was making any personal attack upon Mr. Milvain, who had been a Member of this House for many years, who was well known to most hon. Members, and against whose capacity and ability they had nothing whatever to say. What they had a right to complain of was that the late Government had made this appointment, and they had also a right to call upon the present Government to give an explanation of how they viewed that appointment. The present Attorney-General, the First Law Office of the Crown, made a speech on this matter in the House on March 17th, 1904, from which he would quote one or two passages, as he believed that they would carry great weight. The present Attorney-General then said—

"The general proposition he should invite the House to accept was that the post of Judge Advocate-General ought to be held by someone who was not merely a Minister of the Crown, responsible to the Crown, but who was also directly responsible to Parliament for the discharge of the duties of the office. The subject had been considered by Committees of that House in 1860, 1868, and 1888, and expressions of opinion had been given with reference to the character of the office, the nature of its duties, and the qualifications of the officer selected to discharge those duties. It was now clear that the Judge Advocate-General was a Minister of the Crown responsible to the Sovereign for the discharge of the duties attaching to his office, and that he held the office of a Privy Councillor in order that he might give advice personally to the King. He was responsible to no other person, and the advice which he gave was given entirely upon his own responsibility. He was not responsible to any one connected with the War Office. He advised entirely upon his own responsibility, being guided solely by his conscientious view of the duties he had to discharge."

There was one other short passage he would quote—

"His contention was that an official holding such a position ought not to be left responsible only in an indirect and vague way to that House, and that he ought to acknowledge the same measure of responsibility which was acknowledged by every other Minister of the Crown who gave direct advice to the Sovereign and who was responsible for that advice.… It was a primary rule of the Constitution."

That was the rule which they contended had been in this case broken—

"that every Minister of State who advised the Sovereign should be directly responsible to this House for the advice he gave. That rule was essential for the protection of the Sovereign and for the efficient administration of all the Departments of the State."

That was the opinion expressed by the present Attorney-General, which he thought ought to be taken to heart by every Member of this House who believed in adhering to these excellent constitutional principles. His hon. friend in calling attention to this matter had put the case in a perfectly clear manner as to what the constitutional law really was in regard to the matter. But he would refer to what was said by that great constitutional authority, Mr. Clode, in his latest book on this subject. In that book Mr. Clode said—

"The proceedings of all general courts-martial, of which the Government is the confirming officer, are sent direct to the Judge Advocate-General for his examination and approval. If they are confirmed, it is upon his responsibility as a Minister of the Crown, for which he would be accountable to Parliament. In these cases the persons under sentence lose their legal remedy against the Government as confirming officer, but hold one against the Minister in Parliament. The duty of the Judge Advocate-General is confined to an examination into the legality of the proceedings, the validity of the charges, the evidence of guilt, and the sentence with referencet o statute law. The expediency of carrying out the sentence, or of extending mercy, does not come within his province. In the former matters, no one stands between him and Parliament—he bears the responsibility alone."

He entirely agreed with the hon. Member for Nottingham that the soldier had to be protected against the ordinary Army official. It had been said of persons of eminent position who had held the office of Judge Advocate-General that it was essential that that official, while responsible to Parliament, should be independent of the officials at the War Office. In the Report of the Select Committee on the Army Estimates for 1868 it was stated that that Committee was strenuous in urging that the Judge Advocate-General should be independent of the War Office officials, and also of the Secretary for War. In these circumstances he thought that his hon. friend the Member for Nottingham was doing a great service to our soldiers, and also performing a solemn duty to Parliament, in bringing the attention of the House to this matter. He did not know whether Mr. Milvain would care to submit himself for election again to any constituency; but the principle which they were urging was that the office ought to be held by a person who was directly responsible to the House of Commons, and they thought that the Government had to give a stronger justification than they had yet done for holding the same views as their predecessors who had perpetrated the scandal of the appointment of Mr. Milvain. They were confronted by the fact that in 1892, he thought on the recommendation of the present Prime Minister, Sir Francis Jeune, afterwards Lord St. Helier, was asked to perform the duties of the Judge Advocate-General.

said he supposed that the right hon. Gentleman then took the line of least resistance, but as matter of fact Sir Francis Jeune continued to hold the office for some years. He did not suppose that anyone would care to suggest that the duties of the office of Judge Advocate-General were not absolutely fairly performed by that eminent Judge; but it might be possible that other people who held the position would not be as high-minded, as able and as honourable. All these considerations, however, did not change the opinion which he and his friends held that the office of Judge Advocate General ought to be held by a Minister of the Crown who had a right to approach the Sovereign himself; and that the only way in which they could touch he advice which the Minister gave to his Sovereign was by calling him to account in the House of Commons.

said that his hon. and learned friend had stated his case in the temperate fashion which might have been expected from one conversant with affairs. The points; to which reference had been made were serious points; and he met them not as one who had the slightest interest in prerogative or high doctrine, but simply as a public servant responsible to the House of Commons, whose desire and business it was to do the best for the soldiers in his charge. There were a large number of courts-martial which often required careful supervision as regarded not only the evidence, but the sentences, and the whole of the proceedings, and the work was so heavy that it was the work of one man of considerable capacity. Up to 1894 the office had continued on its old footing, and the practice had been for Government to regard it as an office which they could fill up, not always from the ranks of lawyers of special capacity or even from the ranks of lawyers at all, but as a reward for political services. Accordingly the Government of 1894 found themselves justified as a temporary measure in departing from the practice of having the Judge-Advocate-General in the House of Commons, in order to appoint a man of distinguished legal ability. Lord St. Helier was, of course, a Privy Councillor—a circumstance which seemed to afford considerable gratification to the hon. Member for Northampton.

said that he certainly was not responsible to the House of Commons. Lord St. Helier filled that office longer than was intended and the arrangement went on for twelve years. The noble Lord was assisted by various competent assistants, including Sir C. Scott and Mr. O'Dowd, but he thought that the work was done mainly by a clerk of considerable eminence at the War Office who advised Lord St. Helier upon the work which had to be done. Lord St. Helier spared no pains, but, busy man as he was, he could not give to the duties the attention they required. Any one who knew the work would understand that the examination of proceedings of courts-martial and the sifting of evidence required day by day a man's whole time. For twelve years there had been no one holding the office who was responsible to the House of Commons, though the work was admirably done under an eminent Judge, who could not, with his other duties, himself do the work in the thorough fashion required. In this state of things, and while the organisation of the War Office was being inquired into by the Esher Committee, the office of Judge Advocate-General, with other matters, came under review. The Committee dealt with the office in Part 3 of their Report, and recommended the appointment of a qualified man who would give his whole time and undivided attention to the work. In substance the recommendation of the Committee was carried out, and, as was explained by the late Secretary of State for War in debate in July last,† the precedent of the. Navy was followed, and for the first time for twelve years there was somebody in the House responsible for the treatment of the soldier—the Secretary of State for War. Who was responsible before? Did his hon. friend contend that the Secretary of State for War was responsible for the acts of Lord St. Helier?

said that Lord St. Helier had direct access to the Sovereign as a Privy Councillor, and, therefore, he was not responsible to the head of the War Department. For twelve years there was no person responsible to this House and that was the reason why it was thought necessary to make somebody responsible. The Judge Advocate-General had his office and his department and reported to the Secretary of State every day and the Secretary of State had the responsibility and was responsible to this House.

inquired how it had come about that the right hon. Gentleman was responsible in this House for the acts of the Judge Advocate-General.

replied that that responsibility arose amply from the fact that the Judge Advocate-General was an official of the War Office and reported to the Secretary of State, who could control him. The Judge Advocate-General was appointed by Letters Patent, which were issued under the advice of the Secretary of State for War and could be recalled by the Secretary of State. Therefore the Judge Advocate-General was responsible to the Secretary of State who appointed him. If any doubts arose he (the Secretary of State) went over the Papers, and there was the advantage of two minds reviewing the proceedings. He was not concerned to defend the change that was made; he found the arrangement in operation. Expense should not be considered in a question affecting the lives and liberties of soldiers or anybody else, but, assuming that the arrangement was more or equally efficient, the question of expense was not irrelevant. Under the old arrangement there was a Minister with a salary of £2,000 and a seat in the House, and there was necessarily a salary for a deputy. Now the work was done for one salary and the holder of the office was responsible to the Secretary of State. He did not think the soldier was better off under the old arrangement. He did not initiate the change—perhaps he would not have done so; he could not say; he might have found himself under the domination of more conservative ideas. But he did find in operation an arrangement founded on the recommendation of one of the most competent Committees of modern times. He was not responsible for Mr. Milvain's selection, but he did know that that gentleman carried out the duties of the office with great industry and ability and in a manner that left nothing to be desired. Mr. Milvain was appointed on the understanding that he would not receive a pension and, subject to competence, might hold office until he reached seventy years of age. It was perfectly within the competence of the House to change this position, to dismiss Mr. Milvain, and to revert to the old arrangement; but for the reasons which he had submitted he doubted whether by reverting to the old plan the House would get anything like so good an arrangement as the present one, under which it had a man giving his whole time to the work, and in addition the advantage, not only of the Secretary of State's supervision of the work, but of his direct responsibility to the House of Commons.

* said that among the many questions concerning South Africa which the House had been regarding of late there was one which, he thought, was well removed from anything like political controversy. That particular question was raised by his hon, friend the Member for the Chippenham Division of Wiltshire last week, and he would not have raised it today but; for the fact that on Thursday last he was unable, owing to the lateness of the hour, to discuss this question of land settlement, in which he was particularly interested. Naturally in the discussion of land settlement in South Africa the question of Lord Milner's administration came up. Whatever view might be held by Members on the Ministerial side of the House, it was quite clear all would agree that with regard to land settlement Lord Milner's policy was on the right lines; his whole endeavour was one which all would approve, namely, to put British settlers upon the land acquired by the Crown after tremendous sacrifice on the part of the nation. Lord Milner's policy with regard to land settlement would bear the very closest examination. His Lordship himself had said when he projected his scheme for land settlement that naturally there must be in some respects a certain amount of failure, since it was an experiment in absolutely new conditions under the gravest disabilities, when the whole country was devastated and the Boers had to be put back upon their own farms or upon new farms where their own had been burnt, while at the same time there was a great number of discharged soldiers and others, concerning whom the Press of this country and of South Africa demanded that something should be done. Therefore, a large burden of relief was put upon the land settlement department. He ventured to say that the problem of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony never would be solved until there had been placed upon the soil of those Colonies a progressive agricultural community. It was only by such settlement that there could be built up really self-contained Colonies. At the present time the greater part of the food consumed in South Africa was imported from abroad. That was not wholly due to the country itself, but it was largely due to the fact that the old Dutch methods of farming were not progressive, that South Africa had not yet realised its possibilities, that irrigation had played no large part in the agricultural development, that pest and disease had handicapped the Boers, who had not fought disease nor made scientific efforts to eradicate pests. The points he wished to raise this afternoon were two, and he addressed himself to the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, who in this matter, he was sure, was particularly sympathetic. He could imagine that the Government felt as strongly as he or anyone else interested in South Africa did, that if they could do anything, without doing wrong to the Dutch, to develop agricultural settlement in the new Colonies it ought to be done. The proposal he made to the Under-Secretary, and through him to the Colonial Secretary, was that a certain sum of money which had already been allocated to land settlement in South Africa should be kept for that purpose in perpetuity. Three millions of money were set apart out of the £35,000,000 loan for the purpose of land settlement in South Africa. Of that sum £2,266,000 had been spent. It was said by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Chippenham Division that it had not all been wisely spent. He would ask the House to consider whether it was a bad business that under circumstances of great pressure, when they were called upon to do something for a floating population without work and after war, a sum of about £200,000 should have been lost out of the £2,266,000? What he was asking for was that the Government should sympathetically consider the possibility of devotingthe£600,000 which was still left to be expended in land settlement, and also the repayments from 1,300 settlers, who had been placed on the land since 1901, to the purchase of land again, so that from year to year there would be always some land purchased and placed at the disposal of settlers from this country. The House must dismiss from its mind the idea that the £2,266,000 was given to the settlers. The money was advanced to them and was being paid back. He had been accused in this House of not paying sufficient attention to the needs of the men in this country, and that if the Chinese had not been introduced Britishers would have found work in the mines. If it were thought that he had been wrong in advocating Chinese labour under the circumstances, at any rate on the present question he surely had the cordial goodwill of all in the House. He would ask the Under-Secretary if the Government had made inquiry, and whether it was possible to allocate the £3,000,000 of money in perpetuity for the purchase of land which should be at the disposal of emigrants from this country to become settlers in the new Colonies. He asked the House to remember—and he said it without any prejudice to Boer fellow-subjects in South Africa—that Boer policy in the future under self-government would be to keep the land in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony as preserves for the Dutch, whose preference was for large areas, whereas the British idea of farming was to have smaller holdings and more intensive culture. He hoped if these £3,000,000 were set apart for the purpose mentioned there would be increased intensive culture, irrigation on close settlements, with which he felt the Under-Secretary was in sympathy. If his hon. friend could hold out some hope that the £3,000,000 could be, as it were, turned over in perpetuity for that purpose, he believed considerable progress would be achieved in making our Boer fellow-subjects our friends, for the man who went to market brought back with him good fellowship, and if they had British subjects living side by side with the Boers in an agricultural community this would tend to the destruction of racial feuds; the British would learn something from the Dutch, and the Boer would imbibe better ideas of farming, of government, and of social order. He made this plea on behalf of Boer and Briton alike. If what he suggested were not carried out they would find in the new Colonies as was once the case with Canada, that isolated communities of one race, and particularly a race devoted to pastoral pursuits, would by their very nature prevent progress. Only today, after 150 years, had the solidarity of the French in Canada been invaded, and they were becoming a commercial community. In South Africa there was a better hope for the Transvaal as a commercial community, and if they only put on the soil agricultural settlers of the right stamp in the 0range River Colony particularly he believed the future of the two Colonies would be one that would make for the security of British institutions in South Africa. He went one step further, and made another proposition, which he did not press, although it was a matter which the House ought to consider. There had been occasions on which the Crown had reserved Crown lands in giving constitutional government. This had been done in French Canada, where land had been reserved for the Catholic clergy, and in English Canada, where land had been reserved for the clergy of the English Church. He did not say that that particular arrangement was a good one. He mentioned it only as a precedent established for reserving Crown lands when a constitution was given to a Colony. His suggestion was that the reservation of Crown lands for ten years in these Colonies might be considered. In the Orange River Colony there was little or no Crown land, but in the Transvaal there were 36,000 square miles, and if this were reserved for ten years and administered by the Colonial Office they would be certain to lift the administration of those lands above anything like mismanagement, but above all, keep the question of land settlement out of the arena of Party conflict, prevent it from being a source of warfare between races. They knew there had been maladministration of the Crown lands at times in other Colonies and that under the Kruger Government there was the grossest maladministration of those lands. This proposal, if accepted, might secure land settlement under the present Boards which had proved so successful, and do as good work for the new Colonies as for this country. If the Government set apart the £3,000,000 under a permanent Commission in perpetuity to encourage British settlers to go to South Africa, to buy land for them, which they would purchase in turn, a nucleus of British-Dutch citizenship, combining the characteristics of both peoples, would be secured in the two Colonies. He had been making a speech of suggestion, and he hoped it would receive the sympathetic consideration of His Majesty's Government. It was no use attempting to keep from a Colony any of its rights, but the administration of the £3,000,000 he had alluded to belonged to this country, and it ought to be utilised for the benefit of our own people primarily, while it would be a steady influence upon the future of our great new territories.

drew attention to the state of elementary education in the Island of Ceylon, pointing out that the children of the coolies had no form of education provided for them, while elementary education generally was in a backward state. There were 60,000 or 100,000 children in Ceylon who were receiving no education, and he thought that steps should be taken to give them at least simple instruction in reading and arithmetic. No one believed that it was necessary to burden each estate with a school, for it would be easy to group four or five estates at no great expense to the planters. He wanted to know what steps had been taken to carry out the recommendations of the Elementary Education Commission of 1905, with respect to compulsory education in Ceylon, whether a conscience clause would be included in the new proposals, when legislation was likely to be introduced, and whether inspectors were to be appointed for existing schools on all estates. He hoped the Under Secretary for the Colonies would be able to give a satisfactory reply as to what provision was going to be for the education of the children of all classes in Ceylon.

I think that the House would desire that I should expedite matters by replying to the Questions put to me by the hon. Member for North Manchester and the hon. Member for Gravesend. With reference to the Question just put to me by the hon. Member for North Manchester as to education in Ceylon, the Report of the Commission has been already presented to Parliament. Lord Elgin has enjoyed the opportunity of considering the recommendations made by the Governor, and the Colonial Secretary has sent a despatch to the Governor approving the recommendations made by him. In consequence an Ordinance has been drafted which is now before the Colonial Legislature, and which gives power to municipalities and local boards to provide facilities for elementary vernacular education. Further legislation for increasing the facilities in the country districts is still in contemplation. That is a matter of greater difficulty. With regard to the estate schools, it is proposed that the planters be required to provide facilities for the simple instruction of the children of coolies employed on their estates, and it is intended that those schools should be inspected under Government auspices. But it is not intended at the present juncture to force on the estate schools a uniform, hard-and-fast compulsory school attendance. That would, I think, be going a little beyond what public opinion would support at the present time; but I would like to say that there is no indication that the planters do not recognise in a very full and sympathetic spirit the responsibility which they have in the matter of the education of the children of the coolies who are in their employment. In 1903 there were only forty-three estate schools in the island, of which two were Government schools, and forty-one aided school. In 1905 there were fifty-eight aided schools and two Government schools, and in the schools examined the number of pupils was 2,139, of whom 1,936 were males and 203 females. My hon. friend will see that that is a substantial advance. The question of grouping the estates for the purposes of education has also been very much discussed and examined. As my hon. friend is aware, it has encountered some hostile criticism and opposition, but it would appear that it is possible to group the estates for education facilities without grouping them for all other purposes. The idea of grouping estates for that purpose has not been abandoned by the Governor of Ceylon, and he will do his best to facilitate an extension of that system. I have only, I think, to add that the proposal has in view the issue of a general syllabus of instruction for all the schools throughout the island. That has not yet been completed, because no doubt our educational arrangements in Ceylon, although I think more advanced than a good many hon. Gentlemen here this afternoon might perhaps have imagined, are nevertheless in a somewhat rudimentary condition. I hope, however, that I have explained to my hon. friend that the matter is being closely and vigilantly watched from day to day by the Colonial Office. I hope that the very valuable Report of the Commission which lately investigated the whole question will certainly not be allowed to become useless and ineffective, but that the legislation to which it gave rise will be pushed through the Legislative Council without unnecessary delay.

Now I come to what was said by my hon. friend the Member for Gravesend, who in this House takes such a very great interest in South African questions and indeed in almost all questions we have opportunities for discussing. My hon, friend has asked me about land settlement in South Africa. He is no doubt aware that the whole of the £3,000,000 originally earmarked for that purpose has not been spent, because, when £2,352,000 had been spent on land settlement, it was found that the demands on the loan of £35,000,000, which had been made for the purpose of repatriating the Boers and helping them to get to work on their farms, had been greater than the Government originally anticipated, and that the funds which had been expected to be available for land settlement were, temporarily though not permanently, alienated by having been lent for more urgent needs, to enable people to get to work, to rebuild their houses, and to till the soil again after the war. I think it was explained by Sir Arthur Lawley to the Council of the Transvaal that it was quite impossible until a greater proportion of the money which had been advanced had been repaid for the whole sum required for repatriation to be expended. That was the decision which Lord Milner and the late Administration in the Transvaal were reluctantly compelled to come to. As the hon. Member knows, Lord Milner was one of the most ardent advocates of land settlement, and the fact that he had alienated from the ear-marked fund the sum of £600,000 showed how very clear were the reasons and how imperative was the necessity which deprived the land settlement fund of that sum. The question is—What are we to do in the future? Before that sum of money is repaid and recovered the Orange River Colony and the Transvaal will have become responsible self-governing Colonies. The hon. Gentleman himself is a very strong advocate of the great principle of self-government, and he is always ready to condemn the slightest infraction or fancied infraction of the principle. Above all, he is always ready to condemn any assumption of anything like superior knowledge on the part of Ministers in Downing Street over our colonial fellow subjects in South Africa. Therefore I heard with some surprise the hon. Member recommend us to place Crown lands under special reservation in order to prevent "boodling" or corruption on the part of the persons to whom the government will be entrusted. I really think my hon. friend must be very careful. He does not know what susceptibilities he may be injuring by all this kind of loose talk, which may be telegraphed so swiftly to South Africa and which may be read in South Africa by some who may not fully understand the benevolent motives which have led him to say such things. I do not think that the Government can have any policy in regard to the Crown lands except that of trusting the new administration which will be called into being in the Transvaal. When self-government is established and is representative, as it will be, of all the forces in the country—fairly and evenly representative of them—it will be our duty to confide to them the working out of their own fortunes and destinies, and I do not think we can make innumerable reservations that would excite against this country and the Ministers in charge great amount of prejudice and even irritation and resentment in the Colonies concerned.

* said the suggestion he made was not in regard to the prevention of boodling and corruption in the new Colonies. What he said was that there had been boodling and corruption in the Kruger Administration, and that land settlement might well be kept free from any opposing views of Parties for the present.

If the suggestion of "boodling" and corruption in the past had nothing to do with the proposal to reserve the Crown lands, I do not see how it was necessary to bring it into the discussion at all. I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not wish, any more than any other Member of the House, to give offence to any portion of the British Empire. In regard to land settlement, that is a matter which, as I have already said on behalf of the Government, we view with great sympathy. Lord Elgin has stated in the House of Lords that he would carefully; consider any scheme which might be presented upon that subject, but he has also said he could not give a definite pledge that the whole of this sum would be made available, because before that sum becomes available the new Government will be in being in the Transvaal. Land settlement is not a matter which is being overlooked. The Committee which is proceeding to South Africa will, among other questions, consider whether it is not possible to interpose some sort of screen between the mortgagor and the mortgagee so that the new settlers shall not be dispossessed by the consequences of bad seasons and other natural uncertainties. I hope the hon. Gentleman is not offended at the remarks I have ventured to make. I shall ask him to be content for the present with that assurance. He may be certain that the debate which he has initiated has not been without use. It will tend to crystallise opinion upon the question of land settlement. On both sides of the House there is a good deal of sympathy with the hon. Member's view, and that sympathy is strongly felt by Lord Elgin and the Government.

said the President of the Local Government Board had admitted, in Answer to a Question, that the central body acting in London under the Unemployed Workmen Act was about to suspend active operations except in regard to emigration and some other minor matters. He was aware that the Act empowered the central body to suspend its operations. That could only mean that the provisions of the Act should be suspended when there was no longer any need for their being applied. That could not be said to be the case at the present time. He had been informed that the total number of persons applying in the London area alone was nearly 40,000, and the number for whom work had been found was 4,000. At the present time there were hundreds of women who had made application for whom no sort of provision had been made. The central body at its last meeting had a motion before it to make some provision for some unemployed women, but the motion had to be dropped because the central body had practically decided to suspend all operations under the Act except those relating to emigration and some small settlements in land colonies in this country. This was a very serious matter. It did not apply to London alone, but to Swansea, Manchester, Newcastle, and Leicester. He would press on the President of the Local Government Board that his Department should insist on those bodies carrying out the limited powers conferred upon them under the Act as long as the necessity existed for its being done. The present Act had, as was expected, failed to meet the necessities of the unemployed difficulty, and it had been found in practice that the powers of the distress committees were altogether too limited. Therefore, he thought they were entitled to ask when the Bill mentioned in the King's Speech to extend these powers was likely to be introduced.

The unemployed had been awaiting anxiously the fulfilment of the promises made by the new Government preceding and during the general election. He had had letters from all over the country on the subject, and his reply had invariably been that the Government should be given an opportunity of showing what they could do in the way of enforcing the present Act. It must not, however he assumed that because there were no processions of the unemployed or other demonstrations that unemployment no longer existed in London and in every large centre of population. There were literally tens of thousands of men, women, and children at the present moment destitute for lack of employment, and he insisted that all the powers which the law conferred upon these authorities should be used to the fullest extent, and that at the earliest possible moment those powers should be enlarged.

said he would support the appeal of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Merthyr, especially in regard to the promises of the Government to bring forward at the earliest possible moment a measure to amend the Unemployment Act. It seemed to him that such an amending Bill was entitled to precedence, in point of time, over all other legislation promised by the Government. The Education Bill, for instance, was not to come into operation until January 1st, 1908; but this amending Bill would be required in view of the necessities of the coming winter. What he was afraid of was that the present Government were going to repeat the old mistake of bringing in an inadequate Bill. The appointment of the central committees was defective in the matter of their composition, and they were brought into existence too late to cope efficiently with the distress which existed. The difficulty was that the stress was always laid upon organisations for the relief of unemployment before any preparation had been made to encoun- ter it. They muddled through one winter, but they were in the same difficulty when the necessities of the next winter came upon them. He hoped the Government would bring in their amending Bill forthwith. The Government had been in office for three months and this was a question which must have occupied the minds of the Local Government Board, as it had occupied the minds of all the London Members for years past. It was not, therefore, unreasonable to press the Government to bring forward their amending Bill immediately after the House resumed after the Easter recess.

said that he represented a large constituency where the whole problem of unemployment was very acute. They recognised that, there had been a very great improvement in trade in many places, but that improvement had not yet reached Bow and Bromley and Poplar. He hoped that there were better times before his constituents in that regard, but that time had not yet come. They saw that the Unemployed Act had practically proved a failure in operation. In Poplar there were from 3,000 to 5,000 men unemployed, and only 2,000 had registered themselves. And of these 2,000, only 200 had received employment under the Unemployed Committee. Every man who had had to do with the unemployed knew what a vast vista of distress that showed. They believed that the central committees had the possibility of doing permanent work in this direction; but so long as those committees existed the councils did less and less to forward the means of providing work for the unemployed. What was wanted was be ask the Government to come to the aid of the central committees, and to encourage them to relieve the distress in London and in every part of the country. Why should not the Government subsidise the work of the central committees independently of voluntary subscriptions?

said that the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil had asked him to amplify the Answer which he had given to a Question put by him that afternoon, and he gladly responded to that request.† The total number of applicants for work in London under the operation of the Central Unemployed Committee up to the end of March was 34,071, and the total number who had been given work up to date was 4,500. A large number had also secured employment from and through other authorities, and it was very probable many of these were men who registered themselves under the auspices of the Central Unemployed Body. The hon. Member had spoken of the number of women out of employment, and he need not say that he was exceedingly sympathetic in that regard. The hon. Member knew that he had received a deputation from unemployed women and of members of the Central Body who were specially interested in their unfortunate sisters. His reply to that deputation was that there were special difficulties in providing work for women, but that all he could do he had done, and anything further he could do he would do. There was nothing more pathetic than an unemployed woman; she was even more deserving of assistance than an unemployed man. At all times he could assure the hon. Member that the ladies, whether married or not, could command him for any service he could do for them. The hon. Member for S.W. Bethnal Green had joined the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil in complaining about the tardiness with which the distress committees had got to work. The hon. Member was a fair man, and admitted that the Local Government Board was not responsible for that or for other defects in the Act. It was a fact that the central committee was late in getting to work, but everything he could do to facilitate the work and to provide

† See Column 1304.

funds—going sometimes outside strict departmental duties—had been done In many cases committees were slow in making use of the funds at their disposal, and he knew of one district where not a penny of £6,000 sent by the Queen's Unemployed Fund some months ago had been spent. In stimulating committees, in providing funds, in using the regulations without red tape, he had done everything he could to assist the working of the Act; he had done what he could to make a good coat out of a bad pair of trousers. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley had said that the Act had been an absolute failure. That was a significant statement coming from Bow and Poplar, but London had received £62,000, and of that amount £34,000 was earmarked by the donors for London, and £28,000 was London's share from the general Unemployed Fund. Of the £62,000 received by the Central Unemployed Body £22,000 was in hand at the present moment, and the organisation was open to criticism for holding such a large balance; he would try to get it disbursed in wages to those recipients who were entitled to it. The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley had referred also to the distress in Poplar. On February 17th, 1906, that union had 7,128 persons receiving outdoor relief apart from those relieved by the committee, and on March 31st the recipients of outdoor relief were reduced to 5,492 and this diminution of 1,636, mainly able-bodied men, in six weeks was a step towards those better times the hon. Member wished for, and which he sincerely hoped were on the eve of being reached. It was not yet possible to bring forward an amending Bill. The Act had only three or four months' operation, and until it had had a fair trial the extent to which it was faulty could not be determined. A considerable portion of the funds was unexpended, and up to the present he had no official reports from distress committees as to the working of the Act. He was far from blaming the officers of the organisations, and especially wished to recognise the zeal and ability shown by the secretary of the Queen's Unemployed Fund. No man could have devoted more energy to his work; but until reports were received and suggestions considered a Bill to amend the Act would be incomplete. He had asked for reports, and one or two had appeared, and he hoped to visit a good many of the works and collect data to assist in the amendment of a difficult and complex Act. He would be glad to have the company of his hon. friends the Members for Bethnal Green and Merthyr on his motor car journey. He could give no date for the introduction of such a Bill. Already there were before the House a large number of legislative projects in which the working classes were keenly interested—the Workmen's Compensation Bill, the Merchant Shipping Bill, the Trade Disputes Bill, and others—but as soon as was consistent with good work the amendment of the Unemployed Act would be undertaken.

said he wished to call the attention of the House to a matter connected with the administration of the Congo, but as the day was far spent he did not propose to take up much time. The matter he wished to call attention to was the arrest of Mr. Stannard who had taken a great interest in the administration of the Congo and had been one of our most reliable informants as to the treatment of natives. Through him the reports of certain unfortunate proceedings had reached this country. Mr. Stannard had made certain representations to the Foreign Office and to the public about the treatment of natives by the Congo Government, but more especially by the rubber company, who was more responsible for the Government of the Congo apparently than the official Government itself. In 1903 and 1904 Mr. Stannard and his colleagues complained about the treatment of natives in the district where they were stationed. The result of those complaints was the appointment of a Commission of inquiry in 1904, and that Commission, as the result of investigations honestly carried out, supported in the main every statement and charge that Mr. Stannard and his colleagues had made against the administration of the Congo. Several servants of the rubber company were arrested and punished, but unfortunately several others, including the; director-general, were allowed to leave the country in a somewhat unaccountable manner. The Congo Government said they invited further investigations and promised reforms, and some of them believed at the time that a very black—he had almost said disgraceful—page in the history of the treatment of natives by European countries was about to be closed. Mr. Stannard and his colleagues immediately began to find out that these hopes were not well founded. The Foreign Secretary would bear him out when he said that from May last year until October, and he might almost say until the present moment, the Foreign Office had been the recipient of a long series of letters bringing complaint after complaint about the administration of the Congo in respect to the natives. It had been informed that prominent witnesses who appeared before the first Commission of Inquiry had been arrested, deported, and smuggled out of existence. It had been informed that a series of elaborate molestations organised by responsible officials of the rubber company had taken place, that the tribute of rubber had been increased rather than diminished, and that the abominable system of hostages had been continued since the promulgation of the reforms on paper just as much as before It had been informed that large wide-spreading drives had been instituted for the purpose of bringing in natives into the hostage houses so that their relatives might be more efficient instruments in the hands of the rubber company in collecting rubber. As a consequence of these things having happened after the reforms were promulgated, Mr. Stannard made a representation to the Governor-General, in which he said that on January 16th last additional state officers had come into the district, but instead of protecting the people and administering justice they were perpetrating the evils complained of; they had become mere rubber hunters and were using their authority and armed force to that end. After the Governor-General received that complaint from Mr. Stannard he promulgated a new law of libel which contained, amongst other provisions, one that anyone making a calumnious denunciation of the officials would be subject to a fine of from 25 to 1,000 francs and a maximum of five years imprisonment. That law was promulgated after Mr. Stannard's so-called calumnious statement, although all, or practically all, the statements made by Mr. Stannard had been proved to be true. When Mr. Stannard made the statements for which presumably he had been arrested, whether they were calumnious or not, at any rate they were not criminal, because the criminal law of libel was not then in existence. He should like to ask the Foreign Secretary whether he had any precise information upon this subject Had Mr. Stannard been arrested under this law or had he not? As it would be some little time before the House met again, some statement ought to be made to re-assure the House on this point. He would venture to press the Foreign Secretary a little further, and to ask him whether, as a matter of fact, he did not consider that his duty and his responsibility compelled him to make representations to the proper authorities against the arrest of a British subject for such a crime under circumstances such as he had hurriedly detailed. There was another point. Mr. Stannard was to be brought before Courts about which the Commission of 1904 had stated their opinion definitely and precisely. According to the Commission of Inquiry the courts of the Congo were controlled by the executive of the Congo Government. If the surmises regarding the circumstances under which Mr. Stannard had been arrested were correct, it was because a member or an officer of the Executive of the Congo Government had been libelled, and yet the Court that was to try him had been declared to be subject to the orders of the Executive Government. They remembered the Stokes case, which Lord Fitzmaurice, when a Member of this House, described as murder. That trial was conducted by Courts which would now have to try Mr. Stannard. This was an exceedingly pressing matter in view of the approaching recess, and required the immediate attention of the Foreign Office. The other day there was a very instructive debate on the Congo in the Belgian Chamber, in the course of which it was indicated from all parts of the House that the time had come for the Belgian nation to make itself directly responsible for the administration of the Congo. He hoped the Foreign Secretary would be able to give assurances to the Belgian people that the British Foreign Office would welcome the transfer of the administration of the Congo from its present. Government to the control of the whole Belgian nation.

* called attention to the state of Macedonia, and asked from the Foreign Secretary a statement of the policy which His Majesty's Government were pursuing and intended to pursue in that country. The scheme which was put forward by Austria and Russia three years ago had simply added one more to the paper schemes of reform which the Sultan would not recognise. The civil assessors who had been appointed were a sort of glorified Consuls, for they had a high position but no power. The appointment of those assessors had not rendered the life of a single resident in Macedonia more safe. With reference to the gendarmerie, it was difficult to get them appointed at all, and the House was aware what limitations were put upon their powers. A demand was lately presented for a little more power to be given to them, and he should like to know whether any progress had been made in that direction. Up to last year very little had been done to make life safer, or to make the property of the peasants more secure. There was only one bright spot in the whole business, and that was the policy of Lord Lansdowne, although he thought at the beginning of his term of office Lord Lansdowne made one or two mistakes; or, at any rate, he took one or two steps which he personally regretted very much. He regretted that Lord Lansdowne ever allowed the Macedonian question to be taken over by Austria and Russia, and it would have been very much better if it had remained an international and European question. With those exceptions, Lord Lansdowne's policy had been exceedingly wise and statesmanlike. Not long ago Lord Lansdowne put forward his own scheme of reforms, which were contained in a Blue-book which had been placed before the present Parliament, and which he regarded as the charter of the hopes of the Macedonian people. He hoped very much that the Foreign Secretary would in no way recede from the demands put forward by Lord Lansdowne. Then there was the introduction of the financial control, and this question filled the largest space in the Blue-book. After the naval demonstration this financial control was whittled down until it would have very little effect indeed. The state of the country referred to in the Blue-book appeared to be as bad now as it was represented to be in the preceding Blue-book. He felt that all reform schemes in Macedonia must be tested by the degree in which they contributed to the improvement of the daily life of the peasants and their families. Reference was made in the Blue-book to the presence of Greek bands in Macedonia, and he hoped the Foreign Secretary would be able to say a word in regard to that matter. They carried on their unholy attacks and depredations, not only against barbarians, but also against the peaceful Vlachs who were the enemy of no man. He hoped that the right, hon. Gentleman would be able to assure the House that he had called the attention of the Greek Government to this matter. He further wished to know whether the gendarmerie were to get the increased powers which the Porte was asked for early in March; whether the sanction for the Budgets which had been drawn up by the Financial Commission had arrived from Constantinople; and whether anything had been done in regard to the important question of the raising of the Customs from 8 to 11 per cent. He believed he was right in saying that a reply had not yet been received in connection with the proposed increase. He hoped this country would receive assurances that the increased revenue which would How from the Customs duties would not be used to increase the Turkish Army in Macedonia, and that they would be used to improve the condition of things in Macedonian territory. He hoped the Foreign Secretary would go on pressing the Lansdowne charter. He did not know whether the Foreign Secretary had in contemplation the resumption of diplomatic relations with Servia. Personally, he did not wish to offer any opinion on that subject, but he might say that he thought trade was suffering to a considerable extent from the non-resumption of diplomatic relations. There was one point about that country to which he wished to call attention. Last summer Servia and Bulgaria concluded a Customs union which, so far as he knew, did not alter their relations with Austria in the very least. Austria interfered, and by a process which he could only describe as bullying, forced Bulgaria to tear up, or drastically to modify, that instrument. He did not suppose that, the British Government did anything to aid those two little Powers in carrying out a purely domestic concern. He expressed the hope that if anything happened again in the nature of a friendly movement between these old enemies—Servia and Bulgaria—we should do all we could to encourage such a valuable rapproachement . He had no desire to embarrass the Government by asking Questions which the Foreign Secretary might think it better not to answer, but it was well known that the Macedonian people looked to Britain more than to any other Power for further reforms and the improvement of their terrible condition.

I am afraid that at this hour I cannot attempt to review either the Macedonian question or the Congo question at great length. First of all, let me say as to Servia that I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave this afternoon to the Question asked by the hon. Member for Gravesend.† As to Macedonia, I will only ask my hon, friend who spoke last to let me endorse the speech made by Lord Fitzmaurice in another place.‡ That noble Lord spoke the other might on the question of Macedonia with a knowledge, an experience, and a zeal with which I am entirely in sympathy. On the general aspect of the question I will rely, owing to considerations of time, on the speech of Lord Fitzmauriee. With regard to the mischief which is being done with the Greek bands, we have made representations more than once at Athens, and it has been impressed on the Greek Government how desirable it is they should do all in their power to prevent those bands being formed and entering into Macedonia to work mischief there, and how unfavourable must be the impression produced on the public opinion of Europe if those bands continue to increase and cross over into Macedonia. As to the gendarmerie , there is no doubt they need more power. Their operations are hampered by the fact that they have not sufficient power, especially the right of intervening in the case of every crime committed whether by a pri-

† See Col. 1302.

‡ See Col. 867, et seq.

vate person or by an official in Macedonia. The Powers which have representatives at Constantinople have joined in pressing on the Porte that such power should be given. To their united request they have not yet had a reply, but the reply, when it comes, will, I trust, be what it certainly ought to be, satisfactory in the sense of conceding what is asked. With regard to the Budgets drawn up by the Financial Commission, I can give a more definite and satisfactory reply. They were presented to the Porte for an Iradé to be issued for the purpose. They were accepted without modification, and an Iradé has been issued in the last day or two. With regard to the increase in the Customs dues, his Majesty's Government have not seen their way yet to agree to that, because we wish to be sure before the dues are increased that the revenue which accrues from them will be adequately collected, and that the general prospect both with regard to trade and with regard to the provisions for the vilayets of Macedonia will be assured, or at any rate greatly improved, by the assent we may give eventually to increase of the Customs dues. I endorse entirely what my hon. friend has said with regard to the earnestness of Lord Lansdowne. It is not a matter of policy with Lord Lansdowne, but a matter of earnest human desire to create some improvement in Macedonian affairs; and if he did not do all he hoped it was because of the necessary limitation put on his action by the fact that he had to co-operate with other Powers. My hon. friend expressed the hope that Adrianople would be included in the reforms. If it is not yet included it does not arise from any lack of pressure on Lord Lansdowne's part. It is because Lord Lansdowne was unable to get the consent of other Powers to join with him in securing that policy. I regard that as a point which it is desirable should still be pressed. Much remains to be done in Macedonia. Lord Lansdowne's work, valuable in some respects as it was and full of good intentions as it always has been, is not yet complete. I can assure my hon. friend that as opportunities offer and as we are able to get other Powers to go with us in this matter we will do our utmost to proceed on the same lines, and will keep in view the further reforms which have been laid down in Lord Lansdowne's despatch. I will not say anything about the Congo generally, having regard to the limitations of time. An action for libel has been brought against Mr. Stannard, and I assume that that is a civil action, but a report has reached this country, though it has not reached the Foreign Office, that Mr. Stannard has been arrested. If that be so, it would appear that he must have been arrested on a criminal charge, and the criminal charge must have been made under the law recently promulgated, and promulgated subsequently to Mr. Stannard's alleged offence. I have telegraphed to our Consul at Boma to ask whether Mr. Stannard has been arrested and to point out that if he has been arrested under this law it is clearly illegal that a law promulgated since the offence should be applied to Mr. Stannard's case. I sent that telegram last week, but I have not had a reply, and therefore I cannot say definitely whether Mr. Stannard has been arrested or not. As soon as I get the information I shall be in a position to act. With regard to the prospects of the trial, I am told that the Court before which Mr. Stannard is to be tried is composed of competent people. As soon as the Government heard that Mr. Stannard was to be tried we telegraphed to Vice-Consul Armstrong to attend the trial and to report to His Majesty's Government anything irregular or anything he might think ought to be brought to our notice. I thoroughly endorse what the hon. Member for Leicester has said about the value of Belgian public opinion with reference to the Congo Free State. There is no desire whatever on the part of His Majesty's Government to minimise Belgian responsibility. On the contrary, we want to see Belgium take the responsibility. Not only have we no jealousy, but we have every desire that through Belgian public opinion pressure should be brought to bear to secure reform of the state of affairs in the Congo, and I believe that Belgium, with the right to look upon the Congo as a prospective colony, is the proper country to assert responsibility there. The more the Belgians assert their responsibility the more pleased His Majesty's Government will be. I can assure the House, not only on the part of the Government, but also on the part of the public opinion of this country, that we are entirely disinterested. Our interest is not in the least national, but purely humanitarian, and every one who takes an interest in the Congo question would welcome cordially any disposition on the part of the Belgian nation to take the matter into their own hands.

* said he would stand only for a moment between the House and the adjournment, but he wished to call attention to the position of the Congested Districts Boards in Scotland. The present position showed the different aspects of the land question in different parts of the country. Apparently there was no desire in Scotland on the part of the people in the districts controlled by the Board to become owners. The Congested Districts Board had acquired land which they were unable to dispose of to the occupiers, and he wished to give that Board full power as owners of the land to deal with it as owners, to borrow money upon it, and so put them in a freer financial position. As to finances, under the equivalent grant Scotland received something over £200,000 a year, and under the further grant of £1,000,000 for education to be given under the Bill introduced the other day, they would have an additional proportionate grant for Scotland amounting to over £100,000. His desire was that the Congested Districts Board should be put in a position to deal thoroughly with the land question in the Highlands.

* said that after the discussion they had had about those who dwelt in other lands, he regretted that they had only a few moments left to deal with our own people. He wished to ask the Secretary for Scotland when the Crofters Act Amendment Bill would be brought in, and whether they could have those sums of money which his hon. friend had mentioned, together with the penalties imposed upon trawlers and other people breaking the Fishery Regulations. Why could they not have these moneys for the benefit of the Highland counties? It was all very well to talk about the affairs of the Congo, Macedonia, and other parts of the world, but there were a number of things which should be dealt with in Sutherlandshire. In regard to these matters all he could get from his right hon. friend the Secretary for Scotland were some very civil private letters similar to those which were received from the representative of the late Tory Government. He had hoped that the Liberal Government on its accession to power would look after the Tory officials who dominated every office. He stood up for the interests of our own people in our own country, and trusted that something would be done to assist the crofters and others in the Highland Counties. The people of Sutherland must have postal and telegraphic improvements and better communications.

said that he hoped with regard to the Crofters Bill the Government was not going to be one of fair promises and no performance. The right hon. Gentleman knew perfectly well the condition of things in the Highlands. The law was being broken and this Scottish Bill ought not to be allowed to drag on week after week and month after month. The sooner the Bill was drafted and presented the better for the peace of the country. He hoped to receive an assurance that the Crofters Bill would be brought in soon after the Easter holidays. He was quite assured that the Prime Minister was sympathetic towards the measure.

said the point raised was that the Bill promised in the King's Speech in regard to the Highland question should be brought in at the earliest day possible. His hon. friend knew from Answers to Questions which he had given within the last forty-eight hours that there was every desire on the part of the Government to bring the Bill in as soon as possible. No time would be lost over the matter, and the opinion of the Prime Minister which had been quoted was shared by the whole of the Cabinet. He could only say that the Bill would be introduced as soon as possible. Its provisions would be carefully considered, and he hoped that nothing would be said outside the House that would militate against its favourable consideration. He should be very sorry if any illegalities committed outside the House were to militate against the favourable consideration of the measure, and he hoped that the Government would have the support of his hon. friend and others in deprecating any steps of that kind.

And it being half-past Seven of the clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed without Question put.

And the House, pursuant to the Order of the House [this day], stood adjourned till Tuesday, April 24th.

Adjourned at half after Seven of the clock till Tuesday, April 24th.