Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 157: debated on Tuesday 15 May 1906

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

House Of Commons

Tuesday, 15th May, 1906.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock.

Private Bill Business

London and South Western Bill. Read the third time, and passed.

Manchester and Milford Railway Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Sutton, Southcoates, and Drypool Gas Bill; Waterford Corporation and Bridge Bill. As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill; Water Provisional Order Bill. Read a second time, and committed.

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill." To confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1890, and the Electric Lighting (Scotland) Act, 1902, relating to Eastwood and Cathcart and Kilpatrick," presented by Mr. Kearley; supported by Mr. Lloyd-George; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 210.]

Standing Orders

Resolutions reported from the Select Committee.

  • 1."That, in the case of the Oldham and Saddleworth Tramways (Abandonment) Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
  • 2."That, in the case of the Poole Corporation Water, Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
  • 3."That, in the case of the Ritz Hotel, Limited [Lords], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
  • 4."That, in the case of the Crellin's Patents [Lords], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill."
  • Resolutions agreed to.

    London United Tramways Bill. Reported, with Amendments. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

    Message Prom The Lords

    That they have agreed to—Millwall Dock Bill, without Amendment; North Metropolitan Tramways Bill, with Amendments.

    That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the appointment of a Public Trustee, to amend the Judicial Trustees Act, 1896, and otherwise to amend the Law relating to the administration of Trusts." [Public Trustee Bill [Lords.]

    Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the transfer to the Hull and Barnsley and Great Central Railway Companies of certain works authorised by the Hull, Barnsley, and West Riding Junction Railway and Dock (South Yorkshire Extension Lines) Act, 1902, and to the Great Central Railway Company of the undertaking of the Rotherham, Maltby, and Laughton Railway Company; to empower the Hull and Barnsley Railway Company to construct a new railway, and to acquire additional lands; and for other pur- poses." [Hull and Barnsley and Great Central Railway Companies Bill [Lords.]

    Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Hull and Barnsley Railway Company to provide and work steam vessels between the Port of Hull and certain Continental Ports, and to subscribe to the funds of Steamship Companies; and for other purposes." [Hull and Barnsley Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill [Lords.]

    Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to extend the time limited for the purchase of lands and for the construction and I completion of the tramways, street widenings, and works authorised by the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Act, 1903; and for other purposes." [Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [Lords.]

    Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for an increase of the share capital of United Railways of the Havana and Regla Warehouses, limited, and for other purposes." [Havana United Railways and Regla Warehouses Bill [Lords.]

    Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Cambrian Railways Company to acquire additional lands, and to extend the time for the completion of the railway authorised by the Cambrian Railways Act, 1901; and for other purposes." [Cambrian Railways Bill [Lords.]

    And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the vesting of the Undertaking of the Donegal Railway Company in the Midland Railway Company and in a Joint Committee of that Company and the Great Northern Railway Company (Ireland); to incorporate such Joint Committee and to transfer to that Committee certain of the powers of the Great Northern Railway Company (Ireland) in connection with the Undertaking of the Strabane and Letterkenny Railway Company; and for other purposes." [Great Northern (Ireland) and Midland Railway Bill [Lords.]

    Hull and Barnsley and Great Central Railway Companies Bill [Lords]; Hull and Barnsley Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill [Lords]; Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways Bill [Lords]; Havana United Railways and Regla Warehouses Bill [Lords]; Cambrian Railways Bill [Lords]; Great Northern (Ireland) and Midland Railways Bill [Lords]. Read the first time; arid referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

    Petitions

    Coal Mines (Eight Hours) Bill

    Petitions in favour; From Cartwright; Coedymoeth; Dallas; East and West Elliot; Rhymney; and, Wortley and Farnley Collieries; to lie upon the Table.

    Education (England And Wales) Bill

    Petition from Dorset, against; to lie upon the Table.

    Education (England And Wales) Bill

    Petitions in favour; From Aberdeen; Congleton; Downham Market; Faversham; Hexham; Hornsea; Keighley; Kilburn; London; Middlesbrough; Old Colwyn; Porth; St. Ives; Scarborough; Sheffield; Swindon; and, Workington; to lie upon the Table.

    Education (England And Wales) Bill

    Petitions for alteration, From Bolton: Grantham; Peckham; Preston; and Tavistock; to lie upon the Table.

    Education (England And Wales) Bill (Religious Teaching)

    Petitions against alteration of Law; From Ambrosden; Angle (two); Banstead; Battyeford (two); Black Bourton; Bletchingly; Bournemouth; Chandlersford; Elvetham (two); Gileston; Great Bookhamand Little Bookham; Hampstead; Holbeck; Hooton; Hope Mansel; Hurstbourne Tarrant (two); Ipswich (two); Jordanston; Keyham; Kidsgrove (two); Kilburn; King's Capel; Knight's Enham cum Smannell; Llanmaes; Llantwit Major; Lyonshall; Merton; Mile End; Mirfield (two); Paddington; Pamber Heath; Rhoscrowther; St. David's (two); Sellack; Spittilfields; Stoughton (two); and, Taynton; to lie upon the Table.

    Juvenile Smoking Bill

    Petitions in favour; From London and Oxford; to lie upon the Table.

    Returns, Reports, Etc

    Local Contributions (Ireland)

    Return (presented May 14th) to be printed. [No. 170.]

    Treaty Series (No 5, 1906)

    Copy presented, of Convention between the United Kingdom and Denmark, providing for the settlement by Arbitration of certain classes of questions which may arise between the two Governments. Signed at London, October 25th, 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

    Trade Reports (Annual Series)

    Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 3585 and 3586 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

    Education (Scotland)

    Copy presented, of Code of Regulations for Continuation Classes providing further instruction for those who have left school, 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

    Irish Land Act, 1903 (Investment Of Funds)

    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered May 7th; Sir William Bull]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 171.]

    Shop Hours Act, 1904

    Copy presented, of Order made by the Secretary for Scotland providing for the Early Closing of Shops in the Burgh of Airdrie [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

    Post Offices (United Kingdom)

    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered March 22nd; Mr. Leif Jones]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 172.]

    Metropolitan Police (Arrests)

    Address for "Return of the number of Apprehensions of the Metropolitan Police Force in each of the years 1903, 1904, and 1905, and of the number of cases in which proceedings were taken against members of the force in respect of such arrests, or in which after inquiry they were found not to have been justified by the facts."—( Sir Howard Vincent.)

    Foreign Trade (Comparative Growth)

    Address for "Return showing the total imports and exports (special trade) for each of the following years—1854, 1864, 1874, 1884, 1894, and 1904 of the following 12 countries, viz.:—1. France; 2. German Zollverein and German Empire; 3. Belgium; 4. Holland; 5. Russia; 6. Austria-Hungary; 7. Denmark; 8. Sweden and Norway; 9. Spain; 10. Portugal; 11. United States; 12. United Kingdom."—( Sir Howard Vincent.)

    Questions And Answers Circulated With The Votes

    Mr James Ward And Castlebar Urban Council

    To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that Mr. James Ward, who is undergoing a term of imprisonment in Castlebar Gaol for seditious libel, was on April 23rd unanimously co-opted a member of the Castlebar Urban Council; that the clerk to the council immediately proceeded to the prison, with a view to get Mr. Ward to sign his declaration of acceptance of office, and that he was prevented doing so by; the prison officials; is he aware that Mr. Ward was also prevented signing his franchise paper, thereby rendering it impossible for him to be elected a county councillor this year; and will he explain why the prison officials took that course, and why the Prison Board have not given any reason for such action on the part of the officials. (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) I understand that the fact is as stated in the first part of the Question. The prison governor informed the clerk of the council that he had no authority to allow him to visit Mr. Ward for the purpose mentioned, but that he (the clerk) should apply to the General Prisons Board for the necessary permission. The clerk applied accordingly, and the board in due course gave the necessary authority to the governor, but, owing to a clerical oversight, for which the board express regret, they omitted to inform the clerk of the council of the result of his application. I am advised that, as Mr. Ward did not accept office, another casual vacancy has been created, and there is nothing to prevent Mr. Ward from being again co-opted. I am informed that it is not the fact that Mr. Ward was prevented by the prison officials from signing his franchise paper. The paper was handed to him, but he refused to fill it up, stating that he was not a householder.

    Sale Of The Hewston And Harris Estate

    To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state whether the farm of 195 acres in possession of the landlord, when the latter sold his estate known as the Hewston and Harris estate, of Killmacart, Hacketstown, to the Estate Commissioners, has been divided amongst the smaller tenants; will he s y why one of the tenants, named James Keating, who applied for a parcel of the land, was refused it; and whether any of the 195 acres have been given to persons who had not been tenants on the estate. (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) It is understood that this Question refers to the estate of Messrs. G. Hewson and J. E. Penrose, trustees with power of sale. The Estates Commissioners inform me that they offered nineteen acres of the untenanted land to James Keating, but he refused to take it. All the untenanted land has been divided among tenants and former tenants on the estate with one exception, namely, that of a tenant in the neighbourhood of the estate.

    Postal Promotion At Stafford

    To ask the Postmaster-General with respect to the recent appointment of a junior selected from the Shrewsbury postal staff to the inspectorship of postmen at Stafford if he will explain what are the exceptional qualifications necessary for the appointment to and continued holding of that post; also will he state what educational examination or practical work and experience is doomed essential or necessary; and what facilities and opportunities are afforded to men already on the Stafford postal staff, whereby they may fit themselves for appointment to the post in question. (Answered by Mr. Sydney Buxton.) The necessary qualifications at Stafford, as elsewhere, are capacity for control and supervision, and knowledge of the duties performed by postmen. No educational examination is deemed necessary for promotion to an inspectorship. In the Stafford post office, as in other post offices, the postmen who seem likely to make efficient inspectors are given opportunities of proving their fitness by trial on their duties as occasion offers. I may point out that the officer selected for the situation was an assistant inspector of postmen, and was already, therefore, of higher rank than the men over whom he was placed.

    Suggested Diplomatic Representative At Bolivia

    To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, considering the increasing commercial importance of Bolivia, he will consider the advisability of having a separate diplomatic representative for that country. (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey.) His Majesty's Minister at Lima was, in 1903, accredited as Minister-Resident and Consul-General to Bolivia, and a Consul was appointed who resides at La Paz, with Vice-Consuls at Sucre and Oruro. The present arrangement has been found so far to meet the requirements of the case, and it is not considered that there is as yet sufficient ground to justify the appointment of a separate diplomatic representative in Bolivia. The question will, however, be borne in mind with regard to future developments if such occur.

    Scottish Local Taxation

    To ask the Secretary for Scotland if, in view of the distress existing in the Highlands and Islands, largely caused by the high rates imposed for services more or less national, rising up to 20s. in the £, he will take into consideration the separate recommendations of Lord Balfour of Burleigh and Lord Blair Balfour appouring in the Final Report on Local Taxation, 1902. (Answered by Mr. Sinclair.) The severity of the present burden of rates in certain parishes of the Highlands and Islands has been engaging anxious attention. An inquiry into the local finance of the Lews and the Long Island has just been concluded by the Local Government Board, and the Report will be laid upon the Table. The effect of the separate recommendations appearing in the Final Report of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation, if applied to the parishes under review as part of the whole subject, is receiving careful consideration.

    Bovine Tuberculosis Commission— Publication Of Interim Report

    To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will state what is the cause of the delay in issuing the Interim Report of the Royal Commission on Bovine Tuberculosis; and whether he can state when it is likely to be issued; and whether a definite result and recommendation to meat inspectors and medical officers of health may be expected from the experiments now being carried on at Stanstead. (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) As I have stated on a previous occasion, the Royal Commission have a Report in preparation, together with an Appendix containing the details of a large amount of experimental work. I understand that they do not think it desirable to publish the Report until the Appendix, which is of a voluminous character, is complete. I am informed that they cannot state definitely when it will be issued, but that they are anxious that it should be published as soon as possible. As regards the last part of the Question, I hope that a definite result may be obtained from the experiments at Stanstead, but I cannot at present make any statement on the subject.

    Printing For Royal Commissions

    To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representative of the Stationary office, whether he is aware that the work of many of the Royal Commissions now sitting is delayed, and expense to the country is caused, through the inability of Messrs. Wyman and Sons, the contractors for Government printing, to complete the printing orders of the Commissions within a period of time which other printers in London would find sufficient; whether he is aware that the delays have been more frequent since the contractors have done the printing of the Commissions' work at Reading; whether the contract contained any condition that the Government printing should be done in London, where the London trade union rates prevail, rather than in the country, where the rates are believed to be lower; and, if so, whether the condition as to printing in London can be enforced in order to prevent, as far as possible, the delays complained of. (Answered by Mr. McKenna.) Two specific complaints have been received from Royal Commissions of delay due to some of the printing being executed at Reading. In one case proofs were delivered in the afternoon of the day instead of in the morning, as requested. In the other, proofs asked for Tuesday were not delivered until Wednesday evening. But such delays are quite as frequent with printers whose work is done entirely in London. As Messrs. Wyman started their works at Reading almost immediately after they secured the contract in 1897, it is not possible to make the comparison suggested. The contract contained no stipulation as to the place at which the work was to be executed.

    Workmen's Compensation Insurance

    To ask the Secretary for the Home Department whether he can supply any information to show what will be the estimated additional cost of insurance in the coal and ironstone mining, engineering, shipbuilding, and textile industries, respectively, resulting from the reduction of the qualifying period in Clause 1 of the Workmen's Compensation Bill from fourteen to three days. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I have not got this information at the present time, but I will endeavour to obtain it.

    Licensing Regulations

    To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the recent decision of the Hampshire Quarter Sessions with regard to the license of certain premises in the Isle of Wight, the renewal of which, owing to the premises being structurally deficient and unsuitable, was refused by the Isle of Wight licensing justices, he will consider the desirability of instituting legislation to strengthen the powers of petty sessions in dealing with cases which depend for their solution upon a full knowledge of local circumstances and. conditions. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) I have considered the report of the case which the hon. Member has been good enough to furnish to me. It shall be noted for consideration with other similar cases bearing on the question of appeals against the decisions of licensing justices in regard to the renewal of licenses.

    The Teachers' Register

    To ask the President of the Board of Education in how many schemes for endowed schools a clause has been inserted to the effect that the name of the head master should be on the teachers' register; and what steps the Board of Education intend to take with regard to such schemes in view of the proposed abolition of the teachers' register. (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The number is 123. The Board are giving careful consideration to the point referred to in the second paragraph of the Question, but I am not yet prepared to make an announcement upon it.

    Irish Revenue And Expenditure

    To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the total amount of revenue from all sources derived from Ireland during the financial year ended March 31st, 190G; and per contra the total amount paid by the Treasury during same period towards the maintenance of the public service grants in aid and other-sources of outgoing in Ireland. (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) The particulars desired by the hon. Member have been given for previous years in the form of an Annual Return. The latest Return of the series is No. 230, of 1905. The corresponding Return for the financial year 1905–6 will be furnished if moved for.

    Indian Police Promotion

    To ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the supersession of twelve European police officers in Madras by the importation from Burma of an official of junior standing, who has been graded above them; whether a transfer of a police officer from one province to another is not practically unprecedented; and whether, having regard to its effect upon promotion and pension prospects, he will take steps to prevent its recurrence and grant some redress to the superseded officials, whose services to date had given complete satisfaction. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I have no official information as to the reasons which led the Government of Madras to assign to the officer transferred from the Burma to the Madras police the particular place in the list allotted to him. It is by no means uncommon for police officers to be transferred from one province to another, and it is open to any officer who considers himself aggrieved by the seniority given to an officer so brought into the service to memorialise the Government of India and the Secretary of State on the subject.

    Indian Officials—Transfer From Other Districts

    To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the dissatisfaction which transfers of territory from one jurisdiction to another excite in India, he will take into consideration the objections of the inhabitants to the proposed transfer of the Namakal Falug from the Salem to the Trichinopoly district. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Morley.) I have not had before me the proposal referred to in my hon. friend's Question, but should it be laid before me I will give full consideration to the circumstances of the case.

    Medical Supplies For Irish Boards Of Guardians

    To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will arrange that the Local Government Board of Ireland shall give to Irish boards of guardians the same discretionary power regarding tenders for chemical and medical supplies as are exercised by English boards of guardians. (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) In Ireland one-half of the cost of medicines and appliances is borne by the Local Taxation Account, and a statutory duty is imposed upon the Local Government Board of seeing that no undue charge is placed on this account. It is the opinion of the Local Government Board that they could not, consistently with their duty, allow boards of guardians to accept without good reason a tender other than the lowest for the supply of these medicines and appliances. It is understood that in England medical officers have generally to provide the drugs under the terms of their appointment.

    Sale Of The Thompson (Clonfer) Estate

    To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can now state if any reply has been received by the Estates Commissioners from the Scottish Provident Insurance Company, as mortgagees in posession of the Thompson (Clonfer) estate, on the subject of a sale to the Commissioners. (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners have communicated with the Scottish Provident Insurance Company and have received a reply to the effect that the Company has no mortgage on the property in question. The Commissioners have made other inquiries, but have failed so far to ascertain who the present owners are. If they should be supplied with information as to the owners, they will make further inquiries in the matter.

    Cusack Estate, County Longford

    To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whother any further progress has been made in the matter of the sale of the Cusack estate in county Longford. (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) On April 27th the Estates Commissioners made an offer to the Land Judge for the purchase of this estate, and I am informed that the offer will be brought before the Judge for his consideration at as early a date as possible.

    Evicted Tenants—County Wexford

    To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners have recently been able to acquire a considerable tract of land in. county Wexford with a view to a further settlement of the question of the evicted tenants in that county; and if he can state when the Commissioners expect to be able to proceed to the distribution of the land. (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) The Estates Commissioners inform me that, in addition to 1,744 acres of untenanted land in this county already purchased, they have agreed to purchase some 1,900 acres, schemes for the distribution of which are in course of preparation. They are also negotiating the purchase of additional untenanted land in the county, amounting to over 1,000 acres, of which they cannot obtain possession before November next.

    The Royal Canal

    To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will obtain from the Board of Control of the Royal Canal a vouched and audited Return of the aggregate amount received by the Midland Railway Company each year since that company acquired the canal from all persons for use of the canal banks or of the grass or other growth on those banks, along the entire course of that canal; a statement of any action taken by the Board to have that money applied to the maintenance of the canal; if the money has been appropriated by the railway company, a reference to any statutory authority or judicial decision under which this has been allowed; and the intention of the Board of Control with reference to the future disposition of this canal property, in view of the unnavigable condition of the canal. (Answered by Mr. Bryce.) As I informed the hon. and learned Member on Wednesday last, † the entire question of the constitution and powers of the Board of Control is under consideration, and I am, therefore, not yet in a position to make a statement on the subject of the Question. I would ask the hon. Member to defer further questions in the matter for some little time.

    Desertion Of Bernard Collumb, Of Granard

    To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he

    † See (4) Debates, clvi., 1305–6.
    is prepared to extend to Bernard Collumb, of Granard, who deserted from his regiment in 1901, an indemnity from arrest and prosecution on payment of the fine prescribed in cases of soldiers purchasing their discharge. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The reply is in the negative. The Army Council can make no terms with men in. a state of desertion.

    Injuries To Soldiers Employed In Quasi Civil Employment

    To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state, either in the form of an Answer or in a Return, the total number of men belonging to the military forces of the Crown employed as artificers, engineers, mechanics, or in other quasi-civil employment, not on active service, who have received injuries in the course of their employment; and what gratuity or other form of compensation has been paid in each individual case during the years 1904 and 1905. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) As regards the numbers injured, the information can only be obtained by calling for Returns from all the commands. As regards the last part of the Question, apart from treatment in hospital, the only form of compensation to soldiers-injured in this way is the grant by the Chelsea Commissioners of pension on discharge.

    Sanitary Condition Of Bulford Camp

    To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the huts at Bulford Camp on Salisbury Plain have been found to be insanitary; and, if so, whether there is any intention of abandoning the camp. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) The reply to both parts of the Question is in the negative.

    Questions In The House

    The Navy

    I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many battleships, armoured cruisers, and protected cruisers have been removed from the fighting list of the Navy since January 1st, 1902; and how many of the same classes have been laid down?

    Since January 1st, 1902, the following ships have been removed from the lighting list:—eight battleships, ten armoured cruisers, twenty protected cruisers. The following ships have also been classed as of comparatively small fighting value:—three battleships, sixteen protected cruisers. Since the same date there have been laid down:—thirteen battleships, eighteen armoured cruisers, four protected cruisers.

    Naval Construction

    To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty how many battleships and armoured cruisers are there now under construction for the: British, French, and German navies re-spectively; and how many additional vessels of these two classes are already sanctioned to be laid down this year by each of these countries.

    There are at present under construction, for the British Navy, six battleships and ten armoured cruisers; for the French Navy, six battleships and five armoured cruisers; for the Gorman Navy, five battleships and two armoured cruisers. The programme of new construction in the Estimates now before the House includes provision for four armoured vessels. The German Estimates for the current year include provision for two battleships and one armoured cruiser; and the French Estimates include provision for six battleships.

    Jamaica—Cost Of Naval Residences

    To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what has been the cost of the official naval residence at Jamaica; whether it is now completed; for what purpose is it to be used; and whether it was built on the recommendations of the then Commander-in-chief of the North American and West Indian station.

    I assume that the Question refers to the four official residences which were completed during 1905 at a cost of £8,800. These residences have been lent to the War Office. They were built on the recommendation of the commodore who was at Jamaica in 1902.

    German Navy Estimates

    I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what increase in the German Navy Estimates, inclusive of pensions, is provided for under the revised programme for the year 1909 over and above that provided under the naval programme of 1900 for the year 1906, and also over and above the revised programme for 1906.

    The German naval programme of 1900 authorised an expenditure in 1906 of £9,877,500. The revised programme of 1906 increased this estimate to £12,318,982, and estimated the expenditure in 1909 at £15,036,693. These figures are exclusive of pensions, the cost of which cannot be stated.

    Permanent School Of Cavalry

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the advantages of Netheravon as the site for the permanent school of cavalry have been fully considered, and whether a decision has been arrived at.

    The question is still under consideration.

    Military Bands

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if the band of the Cold-stream Guards attended on the 9th inst. at the annual meeting of the Liberal Social Council, at the Royal Horticultural Hall; and, having regard to the occasions upon which the voluntary presence of military bands at Unionist meetings has been forbidden in consequence of Liberal objection, he will say why an exception was made in favour of this association.

    The band of the Cold-stream Guards played at the reception of the Liberal Social Council in 1904, 1905, and on May 9th, 1906. The rule which has for some time been followed is that a band is permitted to take engagements at any meeting or social gathering provided no political speeches are delivered. On each of the occasions mentioned it was ascertained with very great care that no political speeches would be delivered, and none were delivered.

    Native Revolt In Natal

    I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that, before the outbreak of the present revolt in Natal, Colonel Leuchar's field force destroyed kraals belonging to black subjects of the King and raided 1,000 head of oxen and 3,000 sheep and goats; whether he can inform the House who received the money paid for these looted cattle when they were sold by public auction between March 16th and March 22nd; and whether, in view of the effect upon the rebellion of the suffering and starvation of Zulu women and children entailed by such destruction of dwellings and food supplies, he proposes to take any steps to prevent any further destruction of kraals or food supplies.

    The hon. Member will see from the papers published last week the circumstances in which Colonel Leuchars took action against the chief Gobizembe, and in which the chief was fined 1,200 cattle and 3,500 sheep and goats for serious acts of defiance The money received for these cattle was presumably paid into the Natal Treasury. There is no reason to believe that there will be any destruction of kraals or seizure of food supplies, except on the ground that such action is necessary to prevent the spread of rebellion; and the Secretary of State is not prepared to take steps in the matter as suggested.

    Irish Emigration To Canada

    I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Canadian Government pays the sum of £1 (one pound sterling) to shipping agents in Ireland on every ticket they sell to emigrants from Ireland to the Dominion of Canada; and whether, in view of the fact that such encouragement of the Irish emigration evil is injurious to the welfare of Ireland, he will make representations to the Canadian Government to have this practice discontinued without delay.

    My right hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question. The hon. Member is right in supposing that the Canadian Government, being desirous of stimulating immigration to the Dominion, pay a bonus of £1 to booking agents in respect of each immigrant from Great Britain and Ireland belonging to certain prescribed classes. This bounty, though no doubt acting as a stimulus, does not appear to be the sole or even the main cause of the excessive emigration from Ireland which now prevails; and the remedy must, I think, be of a more comprehensive character than would attach to such representations as the hon. Member suggests.

    Council Of The Government Of India —Elected Members

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, having regard to the fact that there are only four elected members of: The Council of the Government of India, will he consider the expediency of arranging for an increased number of elected members.

    The Regulations, framed under the Indian Councils Act, 1892, provide for five, not four, of the non-official members being elected, while the Governor-General is required to make nominations to the remaining non-official seats, "in such manner as shall appear to him most suitable with reference to the legislative business to be brought before the Council and the due representation of the different classes of the community." I am not prepared to press the Governor-General to modify the Regulations in the manner suggested.

    Debate On The Indian Budget

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is in a position to hold; out prospects of an early date for discussing the Indian Budget.

    I hope to be able to introduce this discussion as shortly as possible after Whitsuntide.

    Indian People And Local Self-Government

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the dissatisfaction that prevails in India, arising from the fact that the Indian peoples have no control of the finances of the country, and also because of the fact that their representatives in the legislative councils are unable, by reason of the Constitution, to initiate any measures for the better government of the country, His Majesty's Government are prepared to consider whether some measure of self-government, similar to that which operates in other British Colonies and possessions, may also be extended to British India.

    It would be impossible for me, within the limits of an Answer across the floor of the House, to give an opinion on the far-reaching subjects with which this Question deals. I fully understand the spirit of the Question, but His Majesty's Government are not of opinion that circumstances demand the total reconstruction of the Indian system of government, and are not prepared to initiate the vast constitutional changes indicated.

    asked whether the Government would be prepared to consider proposals at some subsequent date.

    I cannot commit myself further than to assure my hon. friend that the subject is one which engages my attention.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that dissatisfaction does prevail among the Indian peoples on this subject?

    Is it a fact that 50,000,000 of the Indian people never get a full meal from one year's end to another.

    *

    Presidency College Of Calcutta—Proposed Appointment Of The Professor Of Sanskrit

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to an official answer given in the Legislative Council of Bengal, that a proposal has been made to appoint a European officer to be professor of Sanskrit in the Presidency College of Calcutta; and whether, seeing that this proposal has given rise to unfavourable comment in India, and is opposed to the popular, feeling in favour of employing properly qualified Indians to be teachers of Sanskrit in Government colleges, he will take steps to prevent the proposed appointment.

    I understand from the Question and Answer to which the hon. Gentleman has referred me that a proposal to create a professorship of Sanskrit in the Presidency College, Calcutta, is under consideration by the Government of India. When the proposal is submitted for my sanction I will not neglect the point which the hon. Member raises.

    Partition Of Bengal

    *

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the administration of the new province of Eastern Bengal is identical in type and character with and similar, as regards the laws in force, the manner in which and; the personnel by which they are administered, to the old province of Bengal before its subdivision: whether he has any official information showing that the dissatisfaction which is manifested by the richer, the upper, and the student classes in Eastern Bengal extends to the masses of the people; and, if so, in what way it is believed that they are affected by the change, and in what manner they have given expression to their dissatisfaction.

    The answer to the first paragraph of the Question is in the affirmative. I have no official information which loads me to think that the mass of the population of Eastern Bengal regard the recent administrative changes with dissatisfaction.

    Superintendent Of Chinese Customs

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the appointment of a Chinese official as superintendent of Customs in China, in violation of the agreement of February, 1898, whereby, in consideration of the withdrawal of the British demand for the opening up of Talienwan as a treaty port, the Chinese Government agreed that the post of inspector-general of the maritime Customs should be held by a British subject so long as British trade with China continues to exceed that of any other Power.

    THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD
    (Mr. RUNCIMAN, Dewsbury, for Sir EDWARD GREY)

    I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer on this subject given on Friday last,† in which the promise given by the Chinese Government was stated, and it was announced that we have asked for an explanation of the decree of the 9th instant. But I must add that there is no connection between the opening up of Talienwan to commerce and the Chinese undertaking as to the post of inspector-general of the maritime Customs.

    Turkey And Egypt

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the usual channels made use of when official communications pass between the Turkish and Egyptian Governments.

    Communications between the two Governments pass either between the Grand Vizier and the Khedive or between the Porte and the Egyptian Government.

    Case Of Hannah Smith

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the case of Hannah Smith, wife of Thomas Smith, who, on July 30th, 1894, was convicted of the murder of her child, Hannah May Smith, at Thornton-in-Craven, in the West Riding of York; is he aware that the child was born on May 1st, 1894, and its life taken three weeks afterwards; that it was deposed at the trial that in the opinion of the medical superintendent of the Wakefield Asylum Mrs. Smith was suffering at the time of the murder from homicidal frenzy as the result of puerperal insanity; that Mr. Justice Grantham remarked that every one who had heard the case must sympathise with the prisoner and hope that after a time

    † See Col. 38.
    her mind would recover its power, and: that eventually she would be in such a state that she could return to her friends, and that Mrs. Smith is still confined in Broadmoor Asylum during His Majesty's pleasure; and if he will say whether Mrs. Smith's health of mind and body are now such as to warrant her removal from Broadmoor Asylum and her restoration to her friends.

    † See Col. 38.

    *

    I should be glad if I could allow the patient's discharge without risk of relapse and of danger to herself and others, but taking into consideration her present condition and all the other circumstances of her case, I regret that I do not feel justified in authorising her discharge from the asylum.

    Royal Commission On Experiments On Animals

    *

    I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is prepared to make any statement as to the appointment of a Royal Commission to consider the working of the Act under which experiments on animals are permitted for the purposes of medical research.

    *

    In view of the fact that no inquiry into the subject has-been held for thirty years, it is the intention of the Government to recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to examine the working of the Cruelty: To Animals Act in the light of present scientific knowledge.

    Sweated Industries

    I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the evidence of sweating indicated by the exhibition in London of goods made under sweating conditions, and also the fact that sweating prevails in the cabinet making, glass hovelling, clothing, and boot and shoe industries, he will agree to the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the conditions of the trades covered by the exhibition, and also those named in this Question; and, in the event of such Royal Commission being appointed, whether the terms of reference will include the question of recommending legislation to remove the evils of sweating.

    *

    The question is of great importance and of great difficulty, and it is engaging my attention. But I cannot make any statement at the present moment.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of appointing a Royal Commission.

    *

    We already have three Royal Commissions and two Departmental Committees dealing with subjects with which the Home Office is concerned, and I am afraid our powers of absorption are limited. I therefore cannot hold out my hope of a Royal Commission.

    Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman considers this subject of less importance than those on which Royal Commission are to sit?

    *

    London Town Clerks As Returning Officers

    I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the fact that, by the virtue of the provisions of The London Government Act, 1899, town clerks in London prepare the Register of Voters for Parliamentary and other purposes and act as returning officers and deputy returning officers for elections other than elections for Members of Parliament, he will consider the desirability of promoting legislation to appoint them returning officers at Parliamentary elections also, and, pending legislation, of approaching the High Sheriff of the county of London with a view to their appointment under the procedure at present in force.

    *

    I beg to answer this Question on behalf of my right hon. friend. I may say that the late High Sheriff of London, who had this question brought before him by the Woolwich Borough Council, saw no reason for making any alteration in the appointment of returning officers, as he was satisfied that their duties had been carried out in a satisfactory manner. But I shall be happy to consider the hon. Member's, suggestion.

    Overcrowding On London Railways

    I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what powers the Board of Trade possess in preventing overcrowding taking place in the railway carriages upon the various railways, and whether the Board has any power in forcing the directors of London District Railway Company to run additional trains between East Ham and Aldgate East between the hours of 5 a.m., and 9 a.m., and between 5 p.m. and 8 p.m., so as to prevent the overcrowding that takes place every night and morning between the hours mentioned.

    The Board of Trade have no statutory powers with regard to the overcrowding of trains generally, but they can deal under the Cheap Trains Act, 1883, with the provision of sufficient trains for workmen between the hours of six in the evening and eight in the morning. Under this Act the Board have recently been in communication with the Metropolitan District and London Tilbury and Southend Railway Companies with regard to the train service between East Ham and stations on the Metropolitan District Railway, and since the electrical working of the line was commenced the number of workmen's trains has been largely augmented. The Metropolitan District Railway Company, to whom a copy of the hon. Member's Question has been communicated, have informed me that they are at present running thirty-six trains from East Ham to Aldgate East between 5 and 9 a.m., and twenty-eight from Aldgate East to East Ham between 5 and 8 p.m. They also state that they are carefully watching the traffic on this line, and have put on two additional trains from East Ham in the morning and two from Aldgate East in the evening since the beginning of the present month.

    Liverpool And Southport Electric Railway

    I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state how many persons have been electrocuted on the Liverpool and South-port Electric Railway since March 1st last, indicating the number electrocuted at Freshfield Station.

    One fatal accident from electrical shock has been reported to the Board of Trade as occurring on the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway since the date referred to. This accident occurred to a man, name at present unknown, whilst trespassing on the railway about a quarter of a mile from Freshfield Station on 8th instant. There have also been in the course of the last two months three fatal accidents to persons crossing the lines at Freshfield Station, but neither of these accidents is attributed to electrical shock, the unfortunate persons killed having been knocked down by trains. The Board are in communication with the company as to the arrangements at the station in question.

    Roads And Motor Car Traffic

    I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to complaints by farmers in Cheshire, and other agricultural counties, of the damage and inconvenience which they suffer from the dust raised by the passage of motor cars over country roads in dry weather; and whether he proposes to take any steps to abate the nuisance.

    I have received, and am still receiving, resolutions from a number of local bodies, not only in Cheshire, but elsewhere, referring to the vexatious and damaging nuisance caused by dust raised by motor cars. I have given instructions that these resolutions shall be communicated to the Royal Commission on Motor Cars, who have the subject under consideration.

    In reply to Mr. LUPTON (Lincolnshire, Sleaford), Mr. JOHN BURNS said he believed the Commission had power to consider the question of road construction as affected by this traffic.

    Scottish Congested Districts Board

    I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state by whom estates which the Congested Districts Board have purchased were inspected and valued, and the qualifications of such officers.

    I can only say that in all cases the Congested Districts Board took the utmost care to obtain the most competent opinion as to value before concluding any purchase.

    Crofters Acts

    *

    I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state the cause of the delay in introducing the promised Crofters Acts Amendment Bill.

    I cannot admit that there has been any delay due to lack of desire or effort on the part of the Government. Every endoavour is being made to further the progress of the Bill.

    Stranorlar Evicted Tenant

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that when Patrick Hannigan, of Cappry, Stranorlar, East Donegal, was evicted from his farm in 1899, by the landlady, Alice A. Hayes, that she, by her agents, in 1904, tumbled down his dwelling house and office houses, and burned his furniture therein; and that he is now reinstated to facilitate the sale of the estate under the Land Purchase Act of 1903; and will he advise the Estates Commissioners to refuse to sanction the sale of the estate unless the evicted tenant is compensated for the loss of his houses and furniture.

    The Estates Commissioners have no information as to the matters of fact alleged in the first part of the Question. The owner has given his consent to an inspection of the holding formerly occupied by Hannigan, and this will be carried out in due course by the inspector for the district, and the claims of the evicted tenant reported on.

    Mr J D O'connor's Kilgefin Estate

    I beg to to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an offer has been made to or negotiations opened up with the Estates Commissioners by Mr. J. D. O'Connor, Ballagh House, Roscommon, for the sale of a portion of his estate in the parish of Kilgefin; and whether, before coming to any decision, the Commissioners will consider the necessity of having included in the sale the entire of the tenanted and untenanted land on the estate.

    The Estates Commissioners inform me that they are unable to trace any proceedings in respect of the sale of the estate in question.

    Sir N R O'conor's Roscommon Estate— Tanlagee Farm

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the estate of Sir N. R. O'Conor, situate near Roscommon, was sold in February, 1905, to the tenants on the understanding that a farm known as Tangalee would be divided amongst them, and that this condition has not been fulfilled; and whether he will explain the cause of delay.

    The Estates Commissioners inform me that the agreements for purchase lodged in connection with the sale of this estate include agreements for the purchase of nine holdings in Tanlagee, The lands comprised in the originating application for the sale of the estate include 162 acres in Tanlagee, which it is proposed to sell to the Estates Commissioners as untenanted land. The estate has not yet been dealt with, but the Commissioners will consider the question of the enlargement of small holdings when the untenanted land is being disposed of.

    Carbery Estate, County Cork

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether a settlement has been arrived at for the reinstatement of Patrick M'Carthy in his farm on the Carbery estate, at present in the occupation of Arthur Deane, J.P.; how many evicted farms are occupied by Arthur Deane or his father, B. B. Deane; has the inspector visited those farms; and, if so, with what result.

    The Estates Commissioners inform me that a settlement of the case referred to in the Question has not yet been arrived at. The Commissioners have had the case of Patrick M'Carthy and the holding formerly occupied by him reported on by one of their inspectors. This report will shortly come before them for consideration. The Commissioners have no information as to how many evicted farms are at present occupied by Mr. Arthur Deane or his father.

    Irish Assistant Teachers

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the total number of assistant teachers (male and female) in Irish national schools; their initial and average salaries; the number who have given ten years service and are classed second grade under the old rules; the estimated additional sum which would be required to give those teachers present second grade salary and increments; and whether he will state the average salary paid to Scotch assistant teachers.

    I am informed by the Commissioners of National Education that on December 31st, 1905, the number of assistant teachers employed in national schools was 4,338, namely 1,219 male and 3,119 female teachers. The initial salaries of these teachers, respectively, are £56 and £44 per annum, with the addition in each case of the residual capitation grant. Their average salaries, including residual capitation grant, are £73 13s. 10d. and £58 7s. 9d., respectively. The numbers who have had ten years service and are classed second grade are 265 and 745 respectively. The Commissioners estimate that the sum required to provide minimum second grade salaries for all assistants who are receiving less salaries would for the first year be between £8,000 and £9,000. For succeeding years the charge would be an increasing one, but the ultimate amount could not be estimated without an actuarial calculation. According to the latest published returns, the salaries of Scotch assistant teachers are, for men, £120 11s. 8d., and for women, £73 8s. 8d.

    Land Judge And Insolvent Estates

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what action the Irish Government propose to take with reference to insolvent property in the Land Judge's Court for sale, but which the Land Judge refuses to sell at the value ascertained by competent inspectors on behalf of the Estates Commissioners.

    I understand that under all the Land Purchase Acts affecting estates in the Land Judge's Court the Land Judge is the supreme determining authority, both in case of solvent and insolvent estates, as to the price. The learned Judge informs me that he arrives at his decision in each case after hearing evidence on both sides, and that there are very few cases in which he has been unable to come to terms with the Land Commission, He has in several cases, under Section 40 of the Land Act of 1896, lowered the purchase price suggested by the Commissioners.

    Royal Irish Constabulary Uniform Contracts

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the clothing of the Royal Irish Constabulary is not of Irish manufacture, either with respect to material or workmanship; whether, in view of the development of manufactures in Ireland, some consideration will be shown hem in respect to the cloth required for such uniforms; and why are they not invited to tender.

    It is the fact that cloth of English or Scotch manufacture was used in the clothing which is now being worn by the Royal Irish Constabulary, but the materials have for several years past been made up by Irish tailoring firms. Irish manufacturers have invariably been invited to tender for the supply of cloth required by the Constabulary, and an experiment is now being made with the object of ascertaining whether Irish manufacturers can supply cloth in all respects fitted for the clothing of the Force.

    Clonakilty Evicted Tenant

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that since the death of Archdeacon McCarthy, the evicted farm in Castleventry, Clonakilty, of which he was nominal owner, is now in the hands of the landlord, an inspector has yet visited the farm for the purpose of reinstating Patrick Donovan, the evicted tenant; and, if not, will pressure be brought on the Estates Commissioners to get this farm immediately inspected.

    The Estates Commissioners inform me that they have not yet been able to have the case of Patrick Donovan inquired into by an inspector, but that the case, together with others in the same county, will be taken up at the earliest opportunity.

    West Clare Evicted Tenants

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will press upon the Estates Commissioners the necessity of reinstating the evicted tenants of West Clare before next autumn, in order to give them an opportunity of being able to prepare their land for the spring tillage.

    The Estates Commissioners inform me that they intend to make inquiries into the cases of evicted tenants in County Clare as soon as possible.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to recognise the extreme urgency of this question, as only ten out of some hundreds of evicted tenants have so far been restored to their holdings.

    I am sure the Commissioners are fully alive to the urgency of the matter and will act as quickly as possible.

    Irish Fishery Boards

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if it is within the scope of the instructions to the Committee at present inquiring into the working of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, Ireland, to inquire into the transactions of the Boards of Fishery Conservators, or any one of such boards, for the years 1902, 1903, and 1906 to date.

    The Committee was appointed to inquire into the working of the Department. The transactions referred to would not appear to fall within the reference of the Committee, unless and in so far as they wore in some way connected with the working of the Department.

    Merchants Quay, Kilrush

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Merchants Quay, Kilrush, was the property of the ratepayers of the county of Clare prior to 1846, and that in 1846 the late Colonel Vandeleur got permission to extend the quay for the public benefit under the Act of 9 Vic, cap. 3, agreeing that it would still be the property of the Crown; and, seeing that the late Colonel Vandeleur did not complete the extension, and in view of its present condition, whether he will take steps to have the quay given over to the county council as representatives of the ratepayers.

    The question of the ownership of the Merchants Quay, Kilrush, has recently been the subject of legal proceedings in which the Attorney-General for Ireland, on behalf of the Crown, was joined as a defendant. Judgment was given by the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, declaring the plaintiff, Colonel Vandeleur, entitled to the quay, and this judgment has been affirmed by the Court of Appeal. The Law Officers are at present considering the advisability of further appealing to the House of Lords. It is not in my power to have the quay given over to the county council as suggested by the hon. Member.

    Trench Estate—Evicted Tenants

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners intend restoring William Kennedy, an evicted tenant, to the holding of land formerly occupied by his parents at Plover Hill, Lorrha, county Tipperary, on the Trench estate, the farm, at present, being in the possession of the agent, Mr. W. J. Trench, who is a brother of the landlord, and who owns some one thousand acres of land in the same locality as the evicted farm.

    The Estates Commissioners inform me that they hope to make inquiries shortly into the case referred to in the Question.

    Returns Of Irish Agrarian Outrages

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can now state whether it has been decided to discontinue the periodical Returns of alleged agrarian outrages in Ireland, in view of the fact that no such Returns are issued in regard to England, Scotland, or Wales.

    West Cavan Evicted Tenants

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will say how many evicted tenants have been reinstated in West Cavan; how many are in process of being restored to their old holdings; have the Estates Commissioners purchased any untenanted land, or are they negotiating for same; and, if so, will he give the approximate figures.

    According to the Estates Commissioners' Returns, 19 evicted tenants have been reinstated in the County Cavan, and seven other cases are in process of settlement. The Commissioners have not yet purchased any untenanted land in the county, but have made an offer for 275 acres.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication of the price offered to the landlord and why he refused to sell.

    Ingham Estate County Cavan

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state what is the cause of delay in putting through the sale of the J. H. Ingham Estate, county Cavan; is he aware that in August 1904 an agreenent was perfected to reinstate Patrick M'Connell, the evicted tenant; and whether, in view of the fact that a friend of the evicted tenant has paid to vendor's solicitor the difference between the sum applied for, £475, and the amount the Commissioners agreed to advance, £435, he will see that there is no unnecessary delay in the matter.

    The Estates Commissioners inform me that the advances in respect of the sale of this estate were sanctioned on 26th January last. The intervening time has been taken up with legal matters in connection with the title, and as soon as these are settled the advances will be made. The facts as to the case of Patrick Connell are as stated in the Question. I feel sure that there will be no needless delay on the Commissioners' part.

    Land Commission Courts' Delays

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that John Mannion, Clonaderg, Athlone, caused an originating notice to fix a fair rent to be served on his landlord, Colonel Williams, now four years ago; will he say why this case has not yet been dealt with; are there any restrictions preventing the Land Commission Courts from doing a full day's work in court; and do such restrictions also apply to the lay Commissioners, who systematically only value one or two farms per day.

    I am informed by the Land Commission that the case of John Mannion cannot be traced on their register of outstanding applications to fix fair rents, but the Commissioners are making further inquiries in the matter. There are no restrictions of the nature indicated in the latter part of the Question. Assistant Commissioners are bound, under the conditions of their appointment, to give their entire time to the service of the Land Commission.

    I believe they give their whole working time to the service of the Commission.

    King's County Evicted Tenants

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state the number of evicted tenants in the Birr Division of King's County who have applied to be restored; in how many cases have rein statements taken place or other suitable farms have been supplied; and what quantity, if any, of untenanted land has been purchased in this division by the Estates Commissioners.

    I am informed by the Estates Commissioners that they have received applications from eighty-four persons claiming reinstatement as evicted tenants in the King's County. Of these, five have already been restored by the owners. The Commissioners have purchased some 239 acres of untenanted land in this county, and are in negotiation for the purchase of nearly 5,000 acres more.

    Moystown Petty Sessions

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will say by whom, or acting on whose authority, was the petty sessions book signed in the name of the hon. Member for the Birr Division at Moystown petty sessions in April last; and in view of the fact that the order in one of the cases was varied subsequent to the courts adjourning, will he grant a full inquiry into the matter.

    I am informed that the name of the hon. Member was entered in the petty session order book by the clerk of petty sessions. If the magistrates themselves do not enter their names in the book, the clerk is empowered and directed to do so, and in the present instance the hon. Member does not appear to have entered his name. The granting of time to find bail was not part of the formal order of the court, and the order therefore was not varied. I am informed that the hon. Member himself was opposed to the granting of time for the defendant to find the necessary sureties. The other two magistrates, however, gave the defendant three days in which to do so, and subsequently extended this time until May 10th. The hon. Member bad left the court when this extension was granted. The defendant has since given the required bail. I have no power to order an inquiry into any matter concerning the judicial action of magistrates.

    If three judges sat in the Court of the Kings Bench in Ireland and made an order, would two of them be allowed to vary it after the other one had left.

    Possibly there has been some irregularity, but I gather that no substantial injustice has been caused, although, no doubt, it would appear from the book that the hon. Member had been a party to proceedings which he did not approve.

    You say no injustice has been done. But it is the work of the magistrates, who would not give a tenant a single hour's grace.

    How does the right hon. Gentleman justify this irregularity?

    Will the right hon. Gentleman grant a Royal Commission to inquire into this matter? The allegation is that after the court was up and the magistrates had dispersed, two of them went back and varied an order which had been entered in the order book. That is a manifest irregularity, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will have full inquiry made into the circumstances.

    I do not know exactly what did happen. I rather gather the court continued after the hon. Member had left.

    I asked the clerk if there was any more business, as is usual in petty sessions, and was informed there was not, so I left.

    I have never sat in petty sessions, and am not acquainted with the practice.

    If the hon. Gentleman can, of his own knowledge, send me facts on which I can address an inquiry to the other magistrates I will see if I can get to the bottom of the matter.

    Is not the easiest solution of this difficulty to be found in the appointment of another Royal Commission?

    Is not this the case concerning emergency men who in the the gaiety of their hearts went through the country firing revolvers?

    Major Woods, Longwood Estate

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Major Woods, Longwood, county Meath, has lodged purchase agreements between himself and his tenants with the Estates Commissioners, and that one tenant, Lawrence Hope, is being excluded from the sale; and whether the Commissioners will satisfy themselves, through their inspector, as to the grounds, and their validity, on which Major Woods refuses to sell to this one tenant.

    The Estates Commissioners inform me that the name of Lawrence Hope appears as a judicial tenant in the schedule of tenancies lodged in respect of the sale of Major Woods' estate, but that no agreement for purchase by Hope has yet been lodged. The circumstances under which Hope has not signed an agreement for the purchase of his holding will be fully inquired into when the other holdings on the estate are being inspected.

    Report On Lunacy In Ireland

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will say when the Report of the Inspector of Lunacy in Ireland as to the number of returned emigrants now inmates in Irish asylums will be published.

    The Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums inform mo that their annual Report for last year, which will contain information on the point referred to in the Question, will be presented before the termination of the session, but they are unable to fix a precise date.

    Dismissal Of The Cloonkeen School Teacher

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will cause inquiries to be made into the case of the dismissal of Cornelius O'Callaghan, Cloonkeen, Leap, county Cork; whether he is aware that O'Callaghan taught for twenty-nine years without any record against him, and that though his manager wrote for an investigation into the sickness that prevailed amongst the children before the annual examination of 1904 this was refused; and, seeing that for the unsatisfactory answering of the pupils in this one year O'Callaghan was got rid of after twenty-nine years' faithful service without either pension or gratuity of any kind, whether he will order a full inquiry into the whole facts of this case without further delay.

    I beg to refer to my reply to the hon. Member's previous Question of the 27th March.† I then stated, on the authority of the Commissioners of National Education, that in 1904, and for a series of years previously, the reports on Mr. O'Callaghan's work were of an extremely unfavourable character, and that he had been repeatedly censured and once fined. The Commissioners now inform me that there were, between 1879 and 1904, eleven unfavourable records against this teacher, all on account of inefficiency and the unsatisfactory progress made by his school. I have no power to interfere with the decision of the Commissioners who inform me that they do not intend to re-open the case.

    Kerry Railway And Harbour Guarantees

    I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what is the total amount of rates levied in all Ireland in the year ended March 31st, 1905, for railway and harbour guarantees; the total amount contributed in relief of those rates from the local taxation account; the amount levied in Kerry for the same period for the same purpose; and the amount that would be required to pay the whole of such rate in all Ireland over 6d. in the £, and over 9d. in the £.

    † See (4) Debates, cliv., 1082.

    It would not be possible for the Local Government Board to give the information asked for in the first part of this Question without obtaining. Returns from all local authorities concerned. The total amount contributed in relief of rates for railway and harbour guarantees from the local taxation account in respect of the year ending March 31st, 1905, was £12,524 19s. 11d. The net amount levied in county Kerry for the same purposes during the year ended March 31st, 1905, was £11,932 4s. 8d., deduction having been made of the amount of refund under Section 58 of the Local Government Act of 1898. The information asked for in the concluding part of the Question cannot be stated with accuracy, as some of the counties concerned have not yet sent in claims for refund in respect of the year in question; but as regards the counties from which applications have been received, the sum required to pay the full amount of such charges over 6d. in the £ would be £25,049 19s. 10d., and the sum required to pay the full amount over 9d.. in the £ would be £15,449 19s. 10d.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Kerry pays more in the shape of these guarantees than the whole of the rest of Ireland?

    Bangor Sub-Post Office

    I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he can give an assurance that the sub-post office at Bangor will be properly equipped for telegraph, postal orders, and telephone service.

    The new town sub-office which it is proposed to open in or near Ballymagee Street will be properly equipped from the first for the transaction of money order, postal order, and savings bank business; the question of the provision of a telegraph of a telephone service there must stand over until experience has shown what the requirements are in that direction.

    Then is the right hon. Gentleman going to wait and see what the volume of business is at the office?

    I am going to wait and see what the requirements of the locality are likely to be.

    Cavan And Leitrim Light Railway

    I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, if he is aware of the fact that the manager of the Cavan and Leitrim Light Railway Company took out a special train on or about 25th September, 1905, without the staff; that a special train was required to Mohill, and the manager of the railway sent the company's motor trolley, accompanied by two men, for the staff, and, before they returned, the manager allowed the train to proceed on its journey, stating that he would be responsible; that the train ran down the motor trolley on its return with the staff severely injuring one of the men in it; and whether, seeing that the motor trolley was injured to the extent of £70, will the manager of the railway pay this £70, or will the ratepayers in the guaranteeing area have to pay it; and will the Board of Works, for the future prevent a repetition of the offence occurring.

    An accident of the nature described occurred on the 20th October last near Ballinamore on the Cavan and Leitrim Railway with the result that one of the men riding on the trolley concerned in the accident was slightly injured, and the trolley itself was damaged, but not to any great extent. The question of the manner in which the cost of the repairs will be borne is not for the Board of Trade to decide, but it will be pointed out to the railway company that this accident was due to a breach of the rules adopted by the railway companies for train staff working. The reference to the Board of Works in the conclusion of the hon. Member's Question was probably intended to relate to the Board of Trade, but I am sending a copy of the Question and my reply to the Treasury as representing the Board of Works.

    Turkey And Egypt

    I beg to ask the Prime Minister if he can promise that before any hostilities are commenced in reference to the Egyptian frontier dispute, this House will be afforded an opportunity of discussing the matter.

    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
    (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling, Burghs)

    The answer to this Question is superseded by the important news announced yesterday.

    Business Of The House

    asked as to the course of business, what Supply would be taken on Thursday, and when the Committee stage of the Education Bill would be set down.

    The Committee on the Education Bill will be taken on Monday. On Thursday we shall take the Office of Works Vote and the House of Commons Offices Vote.

    asked when the next stage of the Trades Disputes Bill would be taken.

    It does not look as if it would be possible before Whitsuntide.

    Merchant Shipping Acts Amendment (No 2) Expenses

    Resolution reported; "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of any expenses and allowances incurred under any Act of the present session to amend the Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894 to 1901."

    Resolution agreed to.

    Workmen's Compensation Expenses

    Considered in Committee.

    (In the Committee.)

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of the Expenses of the Secretary of State, and of the remuneration and Expenses of Medical Referees and Arbitrators incurred under

    any Act of the present session to consolidate and amend the Law with respect to Compensation to Workmen for injuries suffered in the course of their employment, and of Compensation to Workmen employed by or under the Crown in pursuance of such Act."—( Mr. Secretary Gladstone.)

    *

    said he could not give at the present stage any estimate as to what the expenses likely to be incurred would be. A good deal turned upon what Parliament decided as to the proposals in the Bill. This Resolution was absolutely necessary, and the Government were simply adopting the ordinary course.

    *

    said the action of the Government seemed somewhat premature. The Bill was now before the Standing Committee, only three of the seventeen clauses had as yet been dealt with, and it was quite impossible to say what would be the result of the discussion upstairs. Could not the Resolution wait until the Compensation Clauses of the Bill had been dealt with?

    *

    We have taken the ordinary course, and it is of some advantage to do so as the Bill proposes to bring in postmen and others, and we may reach the definition clause at any time.

    *

    Will the right hon. Gentlemen bring in soldiers and sailors under the Bill?

    *

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

    Reserve Forces Bill

    Order for the Third Reading read.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

    asked why the Bill was called the Reserve Forces Bill. He was always under the impression that the Reserve Forces included the Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteer Forces. This Bill dealt entirely with the Army Reserve, which he had always looked upon as our front line of defence. There were very few battalions which could be called out for active service unless the Army Reserve were called upon to fill the gap. In view of these facts he asked if it were wise to call the present Bill "the Reserve Forces Bill;" might it not lead to complications?

    replied that Acts dealing with the question had always been called Reserve Forces Acts, and although he had no doubt that there was a good deal in the noble Lord's criticism he had abided by the action of his predecessors.

    called attention to the fact that on Monday the Prime Minister had announced that the programme of procedure for Tuesday would consist of only a few little Bills. Unfortunately people differed in their opinions as to what things were little and what were large. He should not like to trust the Prime Minister's sense of proportion as to what were small Bills. [Cries of "Order."] He wished to call the attention of the House to Clause 2, and to ask for an explanation. It appeared to him to interfere with the privileges of the private soldier in determining in what branch of the service he should serve, as it repealed the enactment which prevented a reserve man from being called up to serve, without his consent, in any corps in which he had not previously served.

    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
    (Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

    said with regard to the hon. Member's reference to himself that everyone must form his own judgment as to what was great and what was small. The criticism which might seem to one Member to be of great importance might to another Member appear to be of no importance at all. He had, however, covered any delinquencies of that sort by telling the hon. Member's leader that he should proceed with the Bills in the order they were to be found on the Paper. That would cover any characterisation of a Bill as being either large or small. He might also solve the hon. Member's doubts as to the measure itself by informing him that it was, verbatim et literatim, the Bill introduced by the late Government last year.

    rose again, but was informed that he had already exhausted his right to speak.

    *

    asked for an explanation as to the class of men to be enlisted in the Reserve. As far as his experience went the Army Reserve was composed of men who had served in the Army and had then been transferred to the Reserve. The Bill before them provided for the enlistment of men in that Reserve, but he was not clear as to what class of men would comprise the Reserve. Would they be men who had served in the Army or not? Would they be civilians?

    explained that this was a Bill of the late Government and had been found necessary by experience in the South African war. Men were wanted in the Remount Department, but they could not take men from the Cavalry Reserve, because those men had enlisted only for that particular arm of the service. By this Bill the War Office took power, therefore, to enlist men for any arm of the service and to transfer Reserves from one branch to another. By the Reserve Forces Act, 1890, power was conferred upon the Secretary of State to enlist a man straight into the Reserve, and this power had been found very convenient. Men were given reserve pay to hold themselves in readiness to be called up if mobilisation became necessary.

    Question put and agreed.

    Bill read the third time, and passed.

    Seamen's And Soldiers' False Characters Bill

    Considered in Committee.

    (In the Committee.)

    [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham)) in the Chair.]

    Clause 1:—

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

    remarked that this was another Bill of the late Government. It proposed to amend the law relating to the falsification of seamen's and soldiers' certificates of service or discharge and to false statements made in connection with entry or enlistment into the naval, military, or marine forces. He wished to ask why the grave crimes of forgery or perjury should under this clause be punishable with imprisonment not exceeding one month. If a man forged he ought to be punishable more severely than by one month's imprisonment.

    stated that this Bill only proposed a summary method of procedure. Proceedings could be taken at common law against a soldier or anyone else for cheating, but it was not always easy to get the jury to take so serious a view of the crime as they should. This Bill provided that the matter could be disposed of by a magistrate summarily and leniently. If a case was so serious that one months imprisonment would be quite inadequate, the offender could be taken before a jury.

    said that from the wording of the Bill it seemed as if the only remedy provided was the remedy of the Summary Jurisdiction Act. He pointed out that the offence in the case of forgery was a very serious thing, as the man would be guilty of forging a document issued by the Crown.

    said his own doubt on that very point had been removed by an examination of Section 33 of the Act of 1889.

    Question put and agreed to.

    Clause 2:—

    MR. T. L. CORBETT moved the insertion of the word "knowingly" before "makes use of." He said a man might unwittingly make use of a false statement.

    Amendment proposed —

    "In page 1, line 24, after the word 'forces' to insert the word 'knowingly.'" —( Mr. T. L. Corbett.)

    Question proposed, "That the word 'knowingly' be there inserted."

    considered the insertion of the word quite unnecessary, for the Bill showed no crime was committed without scienter. The draft of the Bill had been settled by the Treasury and Parliamentary Counsel and was in accordance with the wording of a long series of Acts, and he did not care to accept an Amendment which would involve a departure from long standing practice.

    said he could not understand the plea contained in the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's answer, because they had already in effect got "knowingly" in two other portions of the Bill. He thought, however, that it was important that they should have the word "knowingly" inserted at this precise point. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that it did no harm, and it was only on a point of etiquette that he objected to the Amendment. It appeared that if a man made use of a false certificate he was liable to a certain penalty, and if he made use of any statement as to his character and previous employment which, to his knowledge, was false, he was also liable to a certain penalty. If the saving word of the Amendment were inserted, it would be an improvement. The right hon. Gentleman himself had admitted that the insertion of the word could do no harm, and it seemed to him that it might do considerable good to a person who was charged under the Bill. Under the circumstances he hoped the hon. Gentleman would press his Amendment.

    objected to putting the word "knowingly" in at this particular point, because the fact was that in regard to this particular offence of making use of a false and fraudulent statement, scienter must be proved in the ordinary course of law. The section did provide that in the case of a statement as to his previous character and employment which was to his knowledge false in any material particular, a man should be liable to a penalty. In view of the fact, however, that the law as it stood would involve that a man should be convicted only if he knowingly made use of any forged or counterfeit statement as to his character or previous employment, it was, he thought, quite unnecessary to insert the word proposed.

    *

    wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman was certain that the words "to his knowledge" in the later portion of the clause were sufficient to govern the whole of the preceding portion. He thought it should be mad clear that the scienter should be proved. Did not the words "to his knowledge" really come back to a false and fraudulent statement and should they not be applicable to the whole. He feared that the clause as it stood would put trouble in the way of magistrates in the course of exercising summary jurisdiction.

    thought it was obvious that the words "to his knowledge" only referred to any statement which the man himself made, and not to the use of any forged or counterfeit statement.

    said he understood that the reason the words "to his knowledge" were put in in the second part of the clause was that a statement as to character and employment was only criminal when it was made falsely, and by means of a forged or counterfeit statement. The distinction was that a man might make a statement as to his character or previous employment without knowing it to be false, but he could not use a forged or counterfeit statement without knowing it. In both cases, however, the statement would be knowingly or wilfully made.

    said his point was that scienter was part of the offence in the first part of the clause as applied to a forged or counterfeited statement, but in the second part there was legally no intention unless it was indicated by the word "knowledge." That passing on from the use of a document where scienter was implied gave the same effect to the clause.

    said it appeared from the argument of the right hon. Gentleman that the words "to his knowledge "in the second part of the clause were quite unnecessary. One could not intentionally make use of a false statement without knowing that the statement was false. Therefore, if it was necessary to insert the words" to his knowledge" in the second part of the clause to make the matter abundantly clear, why was it not necessary to make it abundantly clear in the first part as well as the second?

    *

    thought the Amendment would be a very useful one, and he quite agreed with what had fallen from the noble Lord. It was urged against them that this was a Bill prepared by the late Government, but even Unionists might occasionally be able to improve their own Bills. He thought the Secretary of State for War might accept the Amendment because it made the Bill read sensibly. In the first place, it appeared that if a man used any forged or counterfeit statement he should be convicted, but it said in the second place that if he made use of any statement which to his knowledge was false he should be also convicted. It seemed to him that if the amendment were accepted it would make the clause symmetrical in both its parts.

    said the right hon. Gentleman had admitted that there was no harm in the Amendment and to the simple lay mind the word "knowingly" undoubtedly made the clause clearer than it was as it stood.

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood,Rt Hn.SirAlexF.Banner, John S. Harmood-Butcher, Samuel Henry
    Anson, Sir William ReynellBaring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)Carlile, E. Hildred
    Anstruther-Gray, MajorBarlow, Percy (Bedford)Cavendish,Rt. Hn. Victor C.W.
    Ashley, W. W.Beckett, Hon. GervaseCecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)
    Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir H.Bignold, Sir ArthurCecil, Lord R. (Marylebone,E.)
    Balcarres, LordBowles, G. StewartClarke, Sir Edward(CityL'ndon
    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)Bridgeman, W. CliveCooper, G. J.

    said the difficulty was that the word "knowingly" in that position in the clause did nothing, because the law implied that the offence to which it referred must be done wilfully and knowingly. There was a distinction between the two branches of the clause, because it was not necessary to use the word" knowingly" in regard to the first part to constitute an offence, but in regard to the second part, which dealt with false statements, the words, "to his knowledge," were necessary. His predecessor determined to define certain offences. Certain of them were indictable, such as those coming under the first portion of the section, but those under the second portion came under the Summary Jurisdiction Act, and there it was necessary to put in the words "to his knowledge." In the indictable offences scienter was implied.

    said that knowledge might enter equally into the use and the making of a false or counterfeited document. Unlesss it was knowingly made, or falsely and fraudulently, there would be no offence.

    said he should like to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman, because it was very important that these matters which were dealt with by courts of summary jurisdiction should be made as plain as possible. Knowledge was as essential in the one case as in the other, and therefore he would suggest that the word "knowingly" should be put in, and it should be allowed to govern the whole section, and that the words "to his knowledge" should be left out. Then it would be clear that knowledge was the essential part of the whole paragraph.

    Question put.

    The Committee divided:—Ayes 68; Noes 314. (Division List No. 73.)

    Courthope, G. LoydHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
    Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.Hill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
    Craig.Captain James(Down,E.)Houston, Robert PatersonSloan, Thomas Henry
    Craik, Sir HenryKennaway,Rt.Hn. Sir John H.Stanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk
    Dalrymple, ViscountLambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.Starkey, John R.
    Doughty, Sir GeorgeLane-Fox, G. R.Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
    Faber, George Denison (York)Lee,Arthur H.(Hants.,Fareh'mValentia, Viscount
    Fardell, Sir T. GeorgeLegge, Col. Hon. HeneageWalrond, Hon. Lionel
    Finch, Rt, Hon. George H.Liddell, HenryWilloughby de Eresby, Lord
    Fletcher, J. S.Lonsdale, John BrownleeWilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.
    Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
    Haddock, George R.Morpeth, ViscountWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
    Hamilton, Marquess ofO'Neill, Hon. Robert TorrensYounger, George
    Hardy,Laurence(Kent,AshfordPease.Herbert Pike(Darlington
    Heaton, John HennikerRatcliff, Major R. F.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. T. L. Corbett, and Mr. Meysey-Thompson.

    Helmsley, ViscountRopner, Colonel Sir Robert
    Hervey,F. W. F.(BuryS.Edm'dsRutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Gill, A. H.
    Acland, Francis DykeChurchill, Winston SpencerGinnell, L.
    Adkins, W. RylandClancy, John JosephGladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbt.John
    Agnew, George WilliamClough, W.Glendinning. R. G.
    Ainsworth, John StirlingClynes, J. R.Glover, Thomas
    Armstrong, W. C. HeatonCoats.Sir T. Glen (Renfrew, W.)Goddard, Daniel Ford
    Ashton, Thomas GairCondon, Thomas JosephGooch, George Peabody
    Asquith,Rt. Hn. Herbert HenryCorbett,CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'dGrant, Corrie
    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Cory, Clifford JohnGreenwood, G. (Peterborough).
    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Grove, Archibald
    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Cox, HaroldGuest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
    Barker, JohnCraig, Herbert J.(Tynemouth)Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
    Barnard, E. B.Crean, EugeneHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.
    Beale, W. P.Crombie, John WilliamHall, Frederick
    Beauchamp, E.Crosfield, A. H.Halpin, J.
    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)Crossley, William J.Hammond, John
    Bell, RichardDalziel, James HenryHarcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis
    Bellairs, CarlyonDavies, David (MontgomeryCoHardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)
    Bennett, E. N.Devlin CharlesRam say (GalwayHarmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r)
    Bertram, JuliusDewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Hart-Davies, T.
    Bethell, J. H. (Essex, Romford)Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesHaslam, James (Derbyshire)
    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)Dillon, JohnHaworth, Arthur A.
    Billson, AlfredDolan, Charles JosephHayden, John Patrick
    Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineDonelan, Captain A.Hazel, Dr. A. E.
    Black, Arthur W.(BedfordshireDuckworth, JamesHazleton, Richard
    Blake, EdwardDuffy, William J.Hedges. A. Paget
    Boland, JohnDuncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessHenderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)
    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)Duncanl J. H. (York, Otley)Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.
    Brace, WilliamDunn, A. Edward (Cam borne)Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)
    Bramsdon, T. A.Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)Higham, John Sharp
    Branch, JamesEdwards, Enoch (Hanley)Hobart, Sir Robert
    Brigg, JohnEdwards, Frank (Radnor)Hogan, Michael
    Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes, LeighElibank, Master ofHope, John Deans (Fife, West)
    Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)Ellis, Rt. Hon. John EdwardHope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N)
    Bryce, Rt. Hn. James(AberdeenErskine, David C.Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
    Buchanan, Thomas RyburnEsmonde, Sir ThomasHudson, Walter
    Burke, K. Haviland-Evans, Samuel T.Illingworth. Percy H.
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnEverett, R. LaceyJardine, Sir J.
    Burnyeat, J. D. W.Faber, G. H. (Boston)Jenkins, J.
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasFenwick, CharlesJohnson, John (Gateshead)
    Buxton, Rt. Hn.SydneyCharlesFerens, T. R.Johnson. W. (Nuneaton)
    Byles, William PollardFerguson, R. C. MunroJones, Leif (Appleby)
    Cairns, ThomasFiennes, Hon. EustaceJones, William (Carnarvonshire
    Caldwell, JamesFindlay, AlexanderJowett, F. W.
    Cameron, RobertFlavin, Michael JosephJoyce, Michael
    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.Flynn, James ChristopherKearley, Hudson K.
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryKennedy, Vincent Paul
    Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnightFuller, John Michael F.Kilbride, Denis
    Cawley, FrederickFullerton, HughKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)
    Chance, Frederick WilliamFurness, Sir ChristopherKitson, Sir James
    Channing, Francis AllstonGibb, James (Harrow)Laidlaw, Robert
    Cheetham, John FrederickGilhooly, JamesLamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

    Lambert, GeorgeO'Brien, William (Cork)Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
    Lamont, NormanO'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
    Law, Hugh AlexanderO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)
    Lawson, Sir WilfridO'Grady, J.Snowden, P.
    Layland-Barratt, FrancisO'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)Soames, Arthur Wellesley
    Leese,Sir Joseph F.(AccringtonO'Kelly,James (Roscommon,NSoares, Ernest J.
    Lehmann, R. C.O'Malley, WilliamSpicer, Albert
    Lever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral)O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.
    Lewis, John HerbertParker, James (Halifax)Strachey, Sir Edward
    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidPaul, HerbertStrauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
    Lough, ThomasPaulton, James MellorSullivan, Donal
    Lundon, W.Pearce, William (Limehouse)Summerbell, T.
    Lupton, ArnoldPearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)Sutherland, J. E.
    Lyell, Charles HenryPerks, Robert WilliamTaylor, John W. (Durham)
    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Pickersgill, Edward HareTaylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)
    Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs)Pirie, Duncan V.Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
    Maclean, DonaldPower, Patrick JosephThorne, William
    MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftPrice, C. E. (Edinb'gh,Central)Tomkinson, James
    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.Price.Robert John (Norfolk,E.)Toulmin, George
    MacVeigh.Charles(Donegal, E.)Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford,E.Trevelyan, Charles Philips
    M'Callum, John M.Rainy, A. RollandUre, Alexander
    M'Crae, GeorgeRaphael, Herbert H.Villiers, Ernest Amherst
    M'Hugh, Patrick A.Reddy, M.Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
    M'Kenna, ReginaldRedmond, John E. (Waterford)Walsh, Stephen
    M'Kiliop, W.Redmond, William (Clare)Ward, W. Dudley (South'mptn
    M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)Richards, T.F. (Wolverh'mpt'nWardle, George J.
    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)Richardson, A.Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
    M'Micking, Major G.Rickett, J. ComptonWason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
    Maddison, FrederickRidsdale, E. A.Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney
    Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Wedgwood, Josiah C.
    Marnham, F. J.Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Weir, James Galloway
    Massie, J.Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)Whitbread, Howard
    Masterman, C. F. G.Robertson, Rt.Hn. E.(Dundee)White, George (Norfolk)
    Meagher, MichaelRobertson,Sir G.Scott(BradfrdWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
    Meehan, Patrick A.Robertson, J. M (Tyneside)White, Luke (York, E. R.)
    Menzies, WalterRobinson, S.White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Micklem, NathanielRoe, Sir ThomasWhitehead, Rowland
    Molteno, Percy AlportRose, Charles DayWhitley, J. H. (Halifax)
    Mond, A.Rowlands, J.Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
    Montagu, E. S.Runciman, WalterWilkie, Alexander
    Mooney, J. J.Russell, T. W.Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Williamson, A.(Elgin and Nairn
    Morley, Rt. Hon. JohnSamuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
    Morrell, PhilipScarisbrick, T. T. L.Wilson, J.W.(Worcestersh. N.)
    Morse, L. L.Schwann,Chas. E.(Manchester)Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
    Morton, Alpheus CleophasSeaverns, J. H.Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Murphy, JohnSeddon, J.Winfrey, R.
    Murray, JamesSeely, Major J. B.Woodhouse,SirJT(Huddersf'd
    Nicholson, Charles N.(DoncastrShackleton, David JamesYoung, Samuel
    Nolan, JosephShaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Yoxall, James Henry
    Norton, Capt. Cecil WilliamSheehan, Daniel Daniel
    Nussey, Thomas WillansSheehy, David

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. v

    O'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid.Shipman, Dr. John G.
    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Silcock, Thomas Ball

    SIR WILLIAM ANSON moved to omit the words "to his knowledge." It appeared to him that knowledge was as essential in the one case as in the other, and that if it could be inferred in the one it could in the other. If the previous Amendment had been accepted it would have made the matter clear, but as the clause stood a distinction was drawn between making use of "any forged or counterfeit statement as to his character or previous employment," which did not carry with it the word "knowingly," and "any statement as to his character or previous employment," which required "knowledge." It was difficult to conceive how a man could use a false statement as to his character or previous employment without knowing it was false. This Amendment was to make the whole paragraph clear and uniform.

    Amendment proposed—

    "In page 2, line 2, to leave out the words 'to his knowledge.'"—(Sir William Anson.)

    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

    said it was absolutely essential that the word "knowledge" should remain in this part of the clause. The earlier part referred to a forged statement which on the face of it was evidence of guilty knowledge, but in the second case guilty knowledge was essential but was not implied.

    said it was quite clear that in the earlier part of this clause the words, "makes use of any forged or counterfeit statement," meant the use of a statement that was forged or counterfeit to a man's knowledge. The right hon. Gentleman did not contemplate making it an offence unless the person using such statement knew it was a forged or counterfeit statement. There must be a guilty intention to constitute a crime at all, and that was so in the case of a forged or counterfeit statement or in that of a false statement. There was no distinction that he could see between a forged statement and a false statement. In either case the essential part was that it must be known to be forged or false. As the Bill was drafted, however, it would be an offence to make a forged statement even if it were not known by the person to be forged. Just as it was said to be quite clear in the earlier part that the forged statement must be forged to a man's knowledge, so if they left out these words it would be quite clear that the false statement must be false to his knowledge. If they inserted these words they would throw doubt on the meaning in the earlier part of the clause. It would suggest to the court that it was enough that the documents should be forged, whether forged to the person's knowledge or not. He hoped the Government, therefore, would accept the Amendment.

    said the offence in question came under two heads, the man who made use of a forged statement and the man who made use of a false statement. Any alteration such as that now proposed would be wrong.

    reminded the Committee that this was a Bill which had already passed the House of Lords, where it had been subjected to careful scrutiny. What was the proposal? That it should be an offence for which a man might be summarily convicted to make use of any statement in regard to his previous employment which was false in any particular. That was the effect of the hon. Baronet's Amendment. A man who was perfectly innocent might be convicted, and a more monstrous proposal coming from the front Bench he never heard of. Under those circumstances he hoped the Committee would reject the Amendment.

    said that apparently the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not aware that this precise point was raised on the previous Amendment. [" No, no."] At least the analogy was close, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite had said that he saw no objection to the Amendment.

    *

    expressed surprise at the tone adopted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a cardinal principle of the English law that nobody could be convicted without knowledge that he had been guilty of an offence. Whatever the wording was the courts would always require not only that the facts were different from what the soldier or sailor said they were but that he knew them to be different. Therefore it was quite unnecessary to insert the words proposed in order to safeguard the position which the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to think might arise.

    said he wished to say a word in deprecation of the severity of the tone which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had adopted in dealing with this Amendment. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that any Bill which came from the House of Lords should be received with great respect, but that did not preclude members of the Opposition from considering some of its details and suggesting improvements. Before the Chancellor of the Exchequer intervened, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had informed the Committee that knowledge was a necessary element in both, these offences, and had said he was quite ready to accept the Amendment to introduce the word "knowingly" in the earlier part of the clause. If knowledge was a necessary element in each of these offences either it should be introduced in each case or else left out in each, case, but to deliberately leave out "knowingly" in the earlier part and leave it in as applied to the other offence would cause confusion. He thought the Amendment was quite a reasonable one.

    said he was sorry if his tone had conveyed any want of respect. He thought there was the plainest possible distinction between the two cases. To omit the word suggested in this instance would be a most dangerous thing, although to insert it in the other case would not have been dangerous but unnecessary.

    suggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that in discussing the difference between knowledge as applied to the use of a forged or counterfeit statement, and knowledge as applied to the use of a mere statement that was false he had gone entirely astray. The Committee would find that this was so if they looked not at the legal jargon of the phrase but at the common sense application of the clause. What was the clause? It related to the case of a soldier or a sailor making use of a character or recommendation for his own purposes. It was perfectly obvious that a soldier or a sailor making use of a counterfeit document might do so bona fide. He might have been making use of a recommendation or a character which unfortunately had been forged in the way in which it was signed. They had made it an offence to make use of a document which actually was forged, although the man might be perfectly innocent, and not know that the document was signed in an irregular way. He now came to the case of a man making a false statement. The proposal was to leave out the words "to his knowledge." The Chancellor of the Exchequer had suggested that a man might put forward a false statement about his own character, and not know that it was false. Surely a man must know whether a statement about his character was right or not. It was perfectly redundant to retain the words. The words were wanted in the previous clause.

    *

    appealed to the Government to accept the Amendment. The arguments used on the Ministerial side in favour of the Bill were very peculiar. The Secretary of State for War had recommended the Bill because it was a Unionist Bill, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said it ought to be accepted because it came from the House of Lords. He knew that the Unionists were a weak minority, but that was no reason why they should be trampled upon in this way.

    Amendment negatived.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."

    said the offence of giving a false written statement as to character was a serious one, and he wished to know why it was made a summary jurisdiction offence.

    said a portion of the clause might have a deterrent effect upon recruiting for the Army. The previous Secretary of State for War made it a great point that the people recruited for the Army should be of the highest character, and hon. Members hoped that the present Secretary of State for War would carry out that excellent policy. It appeared to him that it was proposed to place a heavy fine on a man who, having been asked to give a certificate of character to a man wishing to join the Army, did not tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He wished to know whether anyone would be liable to be haled before the magistrates and fined £20 if in giving a certificate of character to a man who desired to enter the Army he omitted to state that the person had been drunk some night and had not behaved himself properly. On the other hand, if the certificate stated that the man got drunk would the right hon. Gentleman still take him into the Army?

    said the introduction of this clause did not amount to a new principle or policy. For years past it had been part of the law of the land that a person who made a false statement with respect to any person entering the Navy was liable to a penalty. It was absolutely essential that there should be something of the kind in the Army also. Fortunately, the kind of case mentioned by the noble Lord could not arise, because they had been successful in keeping in the words "to his knowledge." As to the necessity for the clause, he would mention a case which actually happened not long ago. It was illustrative of a long string of cases which he could mention. A man presented himself for enlistment, bringing with him a certificate of character to the effect that he had been in satisfactory circumstances for the last seven years. He was enlisted, but, getting into trouble afterwards, it was necessary for the police to inquire into his character. What turned out to be the truth was that the man had been in prison during the seven years. That character had been given to him by his brother-in-law, who wanted to get rid of him. What was asked for by this Bill was the necessary advantage of the rule that it was an offence for a man to give a false character knowing it to be false. That was the justification for this clause.

    said that he did not understand whether this provision applied to any person seeking employment as a soldier or a sailor. Supposing a boy had been guilty of petty theft, and his master did not think it necessary to prosecute him, or the circumstances of sufficient importance to be included in the written character he might give the boy; and supposing in the course of a year or two that boy wished to enter the Army or Navy, was that master to be liable to the penalty specified in Clause 1?

    wished to know whether the auxiliary forces and the reserve were included in the phrase in Clause 2, "His Majesty's naval, military, or marine forces."

    said that he concluded from the remarks of the Secretary of State for War that the Navy had already the powers provided in for this clause. He therefore suggested that the word "naval" should be left out.

    was understood to say that it was necessary to include "naval" in connection with false statements.

    asked what there was essentially wicked about giving a false character to a person who wanted to be a soldier or a sailor when there was no penalty of £20 inflicted upon a person who gave a false character to a man who was to be taken into civilian personal service?

    said that the question of domestic service had already been covered by the old statute of 1762; but it had to be covered in regard to recruits for the Army or Navy. He had already quoted the case of a brother-in-law who gave a character to a man who had been seven years in prison.

    said that that story did not really touch the point raised by his hon. friend. There was no getting over the fact that many men entered the Army who were not of an absolutely blameless character. If a man could not ask an individual or any member of his household to give him a character so as to allow him to get into the Army, it would tie his hands enormously. One might know that a man had a weak point, just as a man who wanted to sell a horse did not give away all its weak spots. But this man might be a most excellent man for the Army; and yet by this clause an employer such as he had described was to be liable to a penalty of £20 for not having told the whole truth about his former employee. He remembered the President of the Local Government Board making a speech in which he said that he did not think very much of these changes, and that he thought that in many instances some of the Arab boys about the streets would make better soldiers than the boys who attended the Sunday school every Sunday. If an employer or a friend were required to give a boy a character and to tell the whole truth about him, there would be found great difficulty in filling up certain regiments in the Army.

    *

    said that the penalty in the first clause differed seriously from one part of the second clause. The first clause said that the penalty was imprison-

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Burke, E. Haviland-Donelan, Captain A.
    Abraham, William (Rhondda)Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnDuckworth, James
    Acland, Francis DykeBurnyeat, J. D. W.Duffy, William J.
    Adkins, W. RylandBurt, Rt. Hon. ThomasDuncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness
    Agnew, George WilliamBuxton, Rt.Hn. SydneyCharlesDuncan, J. H. (York, Otley)
    Ainsworth, John StirlingByles, William PollardDunn, A. Edward (Camborne)
    Alden, PercyCairns, ThomasDunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)
    Ambrose, RobertCaldwell, JamesEdwards, Enoch (Hanley)
    Armitage, R.Cameron, RobertElibank, Master of
    Ashton, Thomas GairCampbell-Bannerman, Sir H.Ellis, Rt. Hn. John Edward
    Asquith, Rt.Hn. Herbert HenryCarr-Gomm, H. W.Erskine, David C.
    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Causton,Rt. Hn. Richard KnightEsmonde, Sir Thomas
    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.Cawley, FrederickEvans, Samuel T.
    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Chance, Frederick WilliamEverett, R. Lacey
    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Cheetham, John FrederickFaver, G. H. (Boston)
    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Fenwick, Charles
    Barnard, E. B.Churchill, Winston SpencerFerens, T. R.
    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Fiennes, Hon. Eustace
    Beale, W. P.Clough, W.Findlay, Alexander
    Beauchamp, E.Clynes, J. R.Flavin, Michael Joseph
    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)Coats, Sir T. Glen (Renfrew,W.)Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry
    Bell, RichardCobbold, Felix ThornleyFuller, John Michael F.
    Bellairs, CarlyonCollins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.Fullerton, Hugh
    Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.Condon, Thomas JosephFurness, Sir Christopher
    Bertram, JuliusCooper, G. J.Gardner, Col. Alan (Hereford,S
    Billson, AlfredCorbett,CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'dGibb, James (Harrow)
    Black,Arthur W.(BedfordshireCory, Clifford JohnGilhooly, James
    Boland, JohnCotton, Sir H. J. S.Gill, A. H.
    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Ginnell, L.
    Brace, WilliamCrean, EugeneGladstone, Rt.Hn. Herbert John
    Bramsdon, T. A.Crombie, John WilliamGlendinning, R. G.
    Branch, JamesCrosfield, A. H.Glover, Thomas
    Brigg, JohnCrossley, William J.Goddard, Daniel Ford
    Bright, J. A.Dalziel, James HenryGooch, George Pea body
    Brocklehurst, W. D.Davies,David(Montgomery Co.Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
    Brodie, H. C.Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
    Brunner,J.F.L.(Lanes., Leigh)Devlin, CharlesRamsay(GalwayGrove, Archibald
    Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Gulland, John W.
    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)Dickson. Poynder, Sir John P.Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton
    Buchanan, Thomas RyburnDilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.
    Buckmaster, Stanley O.Dolan, Charles JosephHall, Frederick

    ment not exceeding one month or a fine not exceeding £20; and in the case of a second or subsequent offence imprisonment with or without hard labour, and a term not exceeding three months. But in the second clause the penalty was a fine of £20 with no alternative at all.

    said that this was really the creation of a new offence which was not known at common law, and it was thought right to put the penalty under the Summary Jurisdiction Acts.

    Question put.

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 332; Noes, 73. (Division List No. 74.)

    Halpin, J.Marnham, F. J.Seely, Major J. B.
    Hammond, JohnMassie, J.Shackleton, David James
    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisMasterman, C. F. G.Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (HawickB.)
    Hardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)Meagher, MichaelSheehan, Daniel Daniel
    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)Meehan, Patrick A.Sheehy, David
    Hart-Davies, T.Menzies, WalterShipman, Dr. John G.
    Harwood, GeorgeMicklem, NathanielSilcock, Thomas Ball
    Haslam, James (Derbyshire)Molteno, Percy AlportSimon, John Allsebrook
    Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Mond, A.Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John
    Haworth, Arthur A.Money, L. G. ChiozzaSmeaton, Donald Mackenzie
    Hazel, Dr. A. E.Montagu, E. S.Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)
    Hazleton, RichardMontgomery, H. H.Snowden, P.
    Hedges, A. PagetMooney, J. J.Soames, Arthur Wellesley
    Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.)Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Soares, Ernest J.
    Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.Morley, Rt. Hon. JohnSpicer, Albert
    Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Morrell, PhilipStanley, Hn. A. Lyulph(Chesh.)
    Higham, John SharpMorse, L. L.Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
    Hobart, Sir RobertMorton, Alpheus CleophasStrachey. Sir Edward
    Hogan, MichaelMurphy, JohnStrauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
    Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)Murray, JamesStuart, James (Sunderland)
    Hope,W. Bateman(Somerset,NNicholson, Charles N.(Doncast'rSullivan, Donal
    Howard, Hon. GeoffreyNolan, JosephSummerbell, T.
    Hudson, WalterNorman, HenryTaylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
    Hutton, Alfred EddisonNussey, Thomas WillansTaylor, John W. (Durham)
    Illingworth, Percy N.O'Brien.Kendal (TipperaryMidTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
    Isaacs, Rufus DanielO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.
    Jardine, Sir J.O'Connor,James (Wicklow.W.)Thomasson, Franklin
    Jenkins, J.O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Thorne, William
    Johnson, John (Gateshead)O'Grady, J.Tomkinson. James
    Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)O'Kelly.James (Roscommon,NTorrance, A. M.
    Jones,David Brynmor(SwanseaO'Malley, WilliamToulmin, George
    Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Ure, Alexander
    Jones,William (CarnarvonshireO'Shee, James JohnVerney, F. W.
    Jowett, F. W.Parker, James (Halifax)Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
    Joyce, MichaelPaul, HerbertWallace, Robert
    Kearley, Hudson E.Pearce, William (Limehouse)Walsh, Stephen
    Kennedy, Vincent PaulPearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk,EyeWalters, John Tudor
    Kilbride, DenisPerks, Robert WilliamWard,W. Dudley (Southampton
    Kincaid-Smith, CaptainPhilips,J.Wynford (PembrokeWarner, Thomas Courtenay T.
    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)Pickersgill, Edward HareWason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
    Laidlaw, RobertPirie, Duncan V.Wason.John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Lambert, GeorgePower, Patrick JosephWedgwood, Josiah C.
    Law, Hugh AlexanderPrice, C. E. (Edinb'gh CentralWeir, James Galloway
    Lawson, Sir WilfridPrice,Robert John (Norfolk, E.Whitbread, Howard
    Layland-Barratt, FrancisPriestley, W.E.B.(Bradford, E.White, George (Norfolk)
    Leese,Sir JosephF. (Accrington)Rainy, A. RollandWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
    Lehmann, R. C.Raphael, Herbert H.White, Luke (York, E.R.)
    Levy, MauriceReddy, M.White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Lewis, John HerbertRedmond, William (Clare)Whitehead, Rowland
    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidRenton, Major LeslieWhitley, J. H. (Halifax)
    Lough, ThomasRichards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'nWhittaker, Thomas Palmer
    Lundon, W.Richardson, A.Wilkie, Alexander
    Lupton, ArnoldRickett, J. ComptonWilliams, J. (Glamorgan)
    Luttrell, Hugh FownesRidsdale, E. A.Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
    Lyell, Charles HenryRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Williams, W. L. (Carmarthen)
    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Williamson, A. (Elgin and Nairn)
    Mackarness, Frederic C.Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull, W.)
    MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRobertson, Rt.Hn. E. (Dundee)Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.Robertson.Sir G.Scott(BradfrdWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
    MacVeigh,Charles (Donegal,E.)Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Wilson. J. W.(Worcestersh. N.)
    M'Callum, John M.Robinson, S.Wilson. P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
    M'Crae, GeorgeRose, Charles DayWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    M'Hugh, Patrick A.Rowlands, J.Winfrey, R.
    M'Kenna, ReginaldRunciman. WalterWoodhouse.Sir J.T(Huddersf'd
    M'Killop, W.Russell, T. W.Young, Samuel
    M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Yoxall, James Henry
    M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
    M'Micking, Major G.Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—.Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

    Maddison, FrederickSchwann, Chas. E. (Manchester
    Mallet, Charles E.Sears, J. E.
    Mansfield, H. Rendall (LincolnSeaverns, J. H.
    Marks, G. Croydon (LauncestonSeddon, J.

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood,Rt Hn.Sir AlexF.Fell, ArthurNield, Herbert
    Anson, Sir William ReynellFinch, Rt. Hon. George H.O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
    Anstruther-Gray, MajorFletcher, J. S.Parkes, Ebenezer
    Ashley, W. W.Forster, Henry WilliamRatcliff, Major R. F.
    Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt,Hon.SirH.Gardner, Ernest (Berks, East)Rawlinson, John Frederick P.
    Balcarres, LordHaddock, George R.Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
    Banner, John S. Harmood-Hamilton, Marquess ofRopner, Colonel Sir Robert
    Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)Harrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)
    Beckett, Hon. GervaseHay. Hon. Claude GeorgeSalter, Arthur Clavell
    Bignold, Sir ArthurHeaton, John HennikerSassoon, Sir Edward Albert
    Bowles, G. StewartHelmsley, ViscountScott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
    Bridgeman, W. CliveHervey, F.W.F.(BuryS.Edm'dsSloan, Thomas Henry
    Bull, Sir William JamesHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Starkey, John R.
    Carlile, E. HildredHill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)Stone, Sir Benjamin
    Cave, GeorgeHouston, Robert PatersonThomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
    Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.Valentia, Viscount
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Lane-Fox, G. R.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., FarehamWilson, A.Stanley (York, E.R.)
    Clarke, Sir Edward (City LondonLegge, Col. Hon. HeneageWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Liddell, HenryWortley, Rt. Hon. C. G. Stuart-
    Courthope, G. LoydLonsdale, John BrownleeYounger, George
    Craig, Captain James (Down. E.Lowe, Sir Francis William
    Craik, Sir HenryMason, James F. (Windsor)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Charles Craig and Lord Willoughby de Eresby.

    Dalrymple, ViscountMeysey-Thompson, E. C.
    Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred DixonMorpeth, Viscount
    Faber, George Denison (York)Muntz, Sir Philip A.

    Clause 3:—

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill."

    said that in order to understand this clause it was necessary to refer to the Naval Enlistment Act of 1853. He was against the multiplying of manufactured offences. The hundreds of new offences set up by this present clause was only one illustration of how these offences could be multiplied. Under the Naval Enlistment Act of 1853, any person who sought to be enrolled by means of false statements was to be deemed a rogue and a vagabond within the meaning of another Act 5, George IV, cap 83. All the offences were taken out of that Act and were included in 16 and 17 Victoria, and the effect of passing this clause would be to make a man a rogue and a vagaband if he sought to be enrolled in the Naval Reserve by means of a statement not strictly true. What he wished to know was whether this clause extended to such bodies as the Naval Artillery Reserve of South Wales, and other bodies which were not regular but volunteer forces. If so, it was in his opinion a mistake. If the Navy and Army had been carried on successfully with regard to these matters for some hundreds of years, were not the Committee making a mistake in embodying in the statute a fresh set of penalties which were never known before and which were not required. This was a very serious question. In all the great ports of the Kingdom endeavours were being made to supplement the Regular Forces by enlisting voluntary service. If it was intended to penalise a man by making him a rogue and a vagabond because he endeavoured to get enrolled in the service by means of a statement not quite accurate, he thought it was carrying the authority too far and that Parliament should hesitate before it enforced these penalties on the voluntary services.

    said the true use of this clause was this. People entered, with false characters, and by false statements, into the naval as into the military service. That matter was provided for by the special provision contained in Clause 16 of the old Naval Enlistment Act of 1853. But, comparatively recently, the somewhat surprising decision had been given that the penalties for entering the Navy by means of a false character or false statements did not apply to men entering the Naval Reserve. The old theory was to give a soldier or a sailor a long period of service and then pass him out of the service altogether. The present system was to give him a short term of service and then for him to enter the Reserve where he was kept sufficiently trained and was liable to be called out for service of the Crown if necessary. Under these conditions, and by being paid by the Crown, he was just as much in the service as if he were in the barracks or on board ship. It was decided that, as the Naval Reserve was the creature of statute and came into existence after the passing of the old Naval Enlistment Act of 1853, therefore, the man who got into the Naval Reserve by means of false statements could not be punished under that statute. It was owing to a technicality that that conclusion was come to, and this clause was inserted in order to enable a man entering the Reserve under such circumstances to be punished.

    The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question as to whether the provision applies to such bodies as the old Naval Artillery Reserve.

    Not unless they join the Reserve. The Army Reserve Act was an Act by which anybody could be enlisted in the Reserve whether they had been soldiers or not, and in fact many Volunteers were enlisted. It did not matter whether the men entering the Reserve had been Volunteers or old sailors. The question was whether they entered under the Naval Reserve Act.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Clause 4 agreed to.

    Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

    Local Authorities (Transfer Of Treasury Powers) Bill

    Considered in Committee.

    (In the Committee.)

    [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

    Clause 1:—

    said the House understood that the Orders of the Day were to be taken as they were set down on the Paper. He was not in order in going into that matter now, but there could be no doubt that the procedure now being adopted was in direct contravention of what they had been told by the Prime Minister, and therefore he begged leave to move to report progress.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."—( Lord Balcarres).

    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY
    (Mr. GEORGE WHITELEY, Yorkshire, W.R., Pudsey)

    said the Prime Minister stated yesterday that the Bills would be taken practically in the order in which they were on the Paper, and he (Mr. Whiteley) emphasised the fact when he moved the adjournment.

    said that created a very considerable difficulty. A contentious Bill, or at any rate, one of very great substance, was put down to be taken and hon. Members were present in anticipation of a discussion. He was in the memory of the Committee when he said the Prime Minister stated that these Bills would be taken in the order in which they were on the Paper. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would now tell the Committee what departure he proposed to make from the statement of the Prime Minister.

    said the right hon. Gentleman had no right to say there had been any departure from the undertaking of the Prime Minister. He would not allow the right hon. Gentleman or anybody else to say so. The Prime Minister said the Bills would be taken practically in the order on the Paper, and he had emphasised it in the evening by saying they would be taken in practically the same, though not the exact, order. The right hon. Gentleman had asked what Bills it was proposed to take to-day. He would tell him. (The hon. Member then read the Orders).

    said he did not accept the rebuke of the hon. Gentleman. The Prime Minister made a statement which every human being in the House understood to be that the Bills would be taken in the order in which they appeared on the Paper.

    agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, and hoped the Motion would be pressed to a division. He did not understand the distinction that was drawn by the Parliamentary Secretary of the Treasury between taking the Bills in their order and taking them "practically" in their order. What was the purpose of putting these Bills down in an order unless they were to be taken in that order? The Naval Prize Bill was of great importance, and they were prepared to discuss it now.

    said he had understood objection was being taken to one of the Scottish Bills being ad-

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood. Rt Hn. Sir AlexF.Cross, AlexanderMorpeth, Viscount
    Anson, Sir William ReynellDalrymple, ViscountMuntz, Sir Philip A.
    Anstruther-Gray, MajorDixon-Hartland, Sir FredDixonNield, Herbert
    Arkwright, John StanhopeFaber, George Denison (York)O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
    Arnold-Forster, Rt. Hn. Hugh O.Fell, ArthurParkes, Ebenezer
    Ashley, W. W.Finch, Rt. Hon. George H.Ratcliff, Major R. F.
    Aubrey- Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir H.Fletcher, J. S.Rawlinson, John Frederick P.
    Balcarres, LordForster, Henry WilliamRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Banner, John S. Harmood-Haddock, George R.Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert
    Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)Hambro, Charles EricSalter, Arthur Clavell
    Beckett, Hon. GervaseHamilton, Marquess ofSassoon, Sir Edward Albert
    Bignold, Sir ArthurHarrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
    Bowles, G. StewartHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeSloan, Thomas Henry
    Bridgeman, W. CliveHelmsley, ViscountStarkey, John R.
    Bull, Sir William JamesHervey, F.W.F(Bury S. Edm'dsTalbot, Rt. Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.
    Butcher, Samuel HenryHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
    Carlile, E. HildredHill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)Valentia, Viscount
    Cave, GeorgeHouston, Robert PatersonVincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
    Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C.W.Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Lane-Fox, G. R.Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Lee, ArthurH. (Hants., Fareh'mWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
    Cecil Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Legge, Col. Hon. HeneageWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon.J.(Birm.Liddell, HenryYounger, George
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Lonsdale, John Brownlee
    Courthope, G. LoydLowe, Sir Francis William

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Stanley Wilson and Mr. Watson Rutherford.

    Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim,S.Mason, James F. (Windsor)
    Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)Meysey-Thompson, E.G.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Ambrose, RobertBaring Godfrey (Isle of Wight)
    Abraham, William (Rhondda)Armitage, R.Barlow, Percy (Bedford)
    Acland, Francis DykeAshton, Thomas GairBarnard, E. B.
    Adkins, W. RylandAsqulth,Rt.Hn.Herbert HenryBarry E. (Cork, S.)
    Agnew, George WilliamBaker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Beale, W. P.
    Ainsworth, John StirlingBaker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.Beauchamp, E.
    Alden, PercyBalfour, Robert (Lanark)Beaumont, Hubert, (Eastborne

    vanced a stage, and he was not aware that the objection was owing to the passing over of the Naval Prize Bill, which was in the hands of the Solicitor-General, who was ill and had had to go home. They were, therefore, missing the Bill out of the list, as well as the Marine Insurance Bill, which also was in the hands of the Solicitor-General. He regretted that the noble Lord the hon. Member for the Chorley Division did not make it clear that that was what he was objecting to.

    said the Prime Minister gave a clear and definite pledge that Bills would be taken in the order ors the Paper, and emphasised it by reading out the list of Bills, in which he named the Naval Prize Bill.

    Question put.

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 77; Noes, 353. (Division List, No. 75.)

    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)Edwards, Frank (Radnor)Kearley, Hudson E.
    Bell, RichardElibank, Master ofKennedy, Vincent Paul
    Bellairs, CarlyonEllis, Rt. Hon. John EdwardKilbride, Denis
    Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets,S.Geo.Erskine, David C.Kincaid-Smith, Captain
    Bennett, E. N.Esmonde, Sir ThomasKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)
    Bertram, JuliusEvans, Samuel T.Laidlaw, Robert
    Billson, AlfredEverett, R. LaceyLambert, George
    Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineFaber, G. H. (Boston)Law, Hugh Alexander
    Black,Arthur W.(BedfordshireFenwick, CharlesLawson, Sir Wilfrid
    Boland, JohnFerens, T. R.Layland-Barratt, Francis
    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)Fiennes, Hon. EustaceLeese,SirJosephF.(Accrington
    Brace, WilliamFindlay, AlexanderLehmann, R. C.
    Bramsdon, T. A.Flavin, Michael JosephLever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)
    Branch, JamesFlynn, James ChristopherLevy, Maurice
    Brigg, JohnFowler, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryLewis, John Herbert
    Bright, J. A.Fuller, John Michael F.Lough, Thomas
    Brocklehurst, W. D.Fullerton, HughLundon, W.
    Brodie, H. C.Gardner,Col. Alan (Hereford, S.Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
    Brunner, J. T. L. (Lancs.,LeighGibb, James (Harrow)Lyell, Charles Henry
    Brunner, Sir John T. (Cheshire)Gilhooly, JamesMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
    Bryce,Rt.Hn.James (AberdeenGill, A.H.Mackarness, Frederic C.
    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)Ginnell, L.MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
    Buchanan, Thomas RyburnGladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohnMacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.
    Buckmaster, Stanley O.Glendinning, R. G.MacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGlover, ThomasM'Callum, John M.
    Burnyeat, J. D. W.Goddard, Daniel FordM'Crae, George
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasGooch, George PeabodyM'Hugh, Patrick A.
    Buxton.Rt. Hn.SydneyCharlesGreenwood, G. (Peterborough)M'Kenna, Reginald
    Byles, William PollardGreenwood, Hamar (York)M'Killop, W.
    Cairns, ThomasGrey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardM'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
    Cameron, RobertGriffith, Ellis J.M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Gulland, John W.M'Micking. Major G.
    Causton,Rt.Hn.Richard KnightGurdon, Sir W. BramptonMaddison, Frederick
    Cawley, FrederickHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Mallet, Charles E.
    Chance, Frederick WilliamHall, FrederickMarks,G.Croydon (Launceston)
    Cheetham, John FrederickHalpin, J.Marnham. F. J.
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Hammond, JohnMason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
    Churchill, Winston SpencerHarcourt, Rt. Hon. LewisMassie, J.
    Clancy, John JosephHardie,J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)Masterman, C. F. G.
    Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Wore'r.)Meagher, Michael
    Clough, W.Hart-Davies, T.Meehan, Patrick A.
    Clynes, J. R.Harwood, GeorgeMenzics, Walter
    Coats,Sir T. Glen (Renfrew,W.)Haslam, James (Derbyshire)Micklem, Nathaniel
    Cobbold, Felix ThornleyHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Molteno, Percy Alport
    Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,W.Haworth, Arthur A.Mond, A.
    Condon, Thomas JosephHayden, John PatrickMontagu, E. S.
    Cooper, G. J.Hazel, Dr. A. E.Montgomery, H. H.
    Corbett,CH(Sussex,E. Grinst'dHazleton, RichardMooney, J. J.
    Cory, Clifford JohnHedges, A. PagetMorgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.)Morley, Rt. Hon. John
    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Herbert, Colonel Ivor (Mon., S.Morrell, Philip
    Crean, EugeneHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Morse, L. L.
    Crombie, John WilliamHigham, John SharpMorton, Alpheus Cleophas
    Crosfield, A. H.Hobart, Sir RobertMurphy, John
    Crossley, Wlliam J.Hobhouse, Charles E. H.Murray, James
    Dalziel, James HenryHodge, JohnNapier, T. B.
    Davies,David(Montgomery Co.Hogan, MichaelNewnes, F. (Notts., Bassetlaw)
    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Holden, E. HopkinsonNicholson,Charles N.(Doncastr
    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)Nolan, Joseph
    Devlin,Charles Ramsay(Galw'yHope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.Nussey, Thomas Willans
    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Howard, Hon. GeoffreyO'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid
    Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,NHudson, WalterO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesHutton, Alfred EddisonO'Connor,James (Wicklow,W.)
    Dillon, JohnIllingworth, Percy H,O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
    Dolan, Charles JosephIsaacs, Rufus DanielO'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
    Donelan, Captain A.Jardine, Sir J.O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
    Duckworth, JamesJenkins, J.O'Grady, J.
    Duffy, William J.Johnson, John (Gateshead)O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
    Duncan, C.(Barrow-in-Furness)Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)O'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N
    Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)Jones,DavidBrynmor(SwanseaO'Malley, William
    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Shaughnessy, P. S.
    Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)Jones, William (CarnarvonshireO'Shee, James John
    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)Joyce, MichaelParker, James (Halifax)

    Paul, HerbertSchwann, Chas.E.(Manchester)Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
    Pearce, William (Limehouse)Sears, J. E.Wallace, Robert
    Pearson, W.H.M.(Suffolk,Eye)Seaverns, J. H.Walsh, Stephen
    Perks, Robert WilliamSeddon, J.Walters, John Tudor
    Philipps, J. Wynford (PembrokeSeely, Major, J. B.Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent
    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Shackleton, David JamesWard, W. Dudley (Southampton
    Pickersgill, Edward HareShaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.Wardle, George J.
    Pirie, Duncan V.Sheehan, Daniel DanielWason, Eugene (Clackmannan)
    Power, Patrick JosephSheehy, DavidWason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Price, C.E. (Edinb'gh, Central)Shipman, Dr. John G.Wedgwood, Josiah C
    Price, Robert John(Norfolk.E.)Silcock, Thomas BallWeir, James Galloway
    Priestley, W.E.B. (Bradford.E.Simon, John AllsebrookWhitbread, Howard
    Radford, G. H.Sinclair, Rt. Hon. JohnWhite, George (Norfolk)
    Rainy, A. RollandSmeaton, Donald MackenzieWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
    Raphael, Herbert H.Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)White, Luke (York, E.R.)
    Rea, Walter Russell, (ScarboroSnowden, P.White, Patrick (Meath North)
    Reddy, M.Soames, Arthur WellesleyWhitehead, Rowland
    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Soares, Ernest J.Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
    Redmond, William (Clare)Spicer, AlbertWhittaker, Thomas Palmer
    Rees, J. D.Stanger, H. Y.Wilkie, Alexander
    Renton, Major LeslieStanley, Hn. O. Lyulph(Chesh.)Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
    Richards, T. F.(Wolverh'mpt'nSteadman, W. C.Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)
    Richardson, A.Stewart, Halley (Greenock)Williams, W. L. (Carmarthen)
    Rickett, J. ComptonStrachey, Sir EdwardWilliamson, A.(Elgin and Nairn
    Ridsdale, E A.Strauss, E. E. (Abingdon)Wilson, Hon. C.H.W. (Hull,W.)
    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Stuart, James (Sunderland)Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Sullivan, DonalWilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.Summerbell, T.Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
    Robertson, Rt. Hon. E. (DundeeSutherland, J. E.Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
    Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rdTaylor, Austin (East Toxteth)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Taylor, John W. (Durham)Winfrey, R.
    Robinson, S.Taylor, Theodore C. (RadcliffeWodehouse, Lord (Norfolk, Mid
    Roe, Sir ThomasThomas,David Alfred (MerthyrWoodhouse, SirJ.T.(Huddersfd
    Rowlands, J.Thomasson, FranklinYoung, Samuel
    Runciman, WalterThorne, WilliamYoxall, James Henry
    Russell, T. W.Tomkinson, James
    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Torrance, A. M.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Toulmin, George
    Scarisbrick, T. T. L.Verney, F. W.

    MR. MITCHELL-THOMSON (Lanarkshire, N.W.) moved to omit the words "except the London County Council." He said that he had put this Amendment down from a spirit of inquiry, because he felt that the Committee were entitled to some further information. This Bill was another example of legislation by reference, and he never saw a measure with so much reference and so little Act.

    Amendment proposed—

    "In page 1, lines 6 and 7, to leave out the words 'except the London County Council.'"—(Mr. Mitchell-Thomson.)

    explained that whilst the Treasury desired to hand over to the Local Government Board all its powers with regard to other authorities, it made an exception in the case of the London County Council, because that body was a lending autho- rity itself and advanced loans to other authorities in London. Therefore it was necessary that the Treasury should retain its statutory control in the case of the London County Council, although it was desirable that in the case of the other authorities they should come under the Local Government Board.

    said that the explanation of the hon. Gentleman would be satisfactory if it happened to be an explanation of the clause. As a matter of fact, it was obvious that the county council had no powers in regard to baths and wash-houses, and inasmuch as the county council had no such powers, it was not necessary to transfer to the Local Government Board any powers in reference to the London County Council.

    *

    pointed out that there were Acts of Parliament under which other county councils had power to borrow money and lend to minor authorities. If the London County Council was excepted the other county councils should be treated in the same way. He could not see why a special privilege should be given to the London County Council. He hoped some further explanation would be given.

    said the hon. and learned Member for the West Derby Division of Liverpool had omitted to remind the Committee that the powers exercised by the London County Council were under the control of the Local Government Board and did not enter into this Bill at all.

    asked whether it would not be better for the Minister in charge of the Bill to give some particulars of what the powers were. Was the Committee to be called upon to pass a section of such a sweeping character without any explanation? One of the powers was as to approving or not approving of the sale of real estate.

    Exactly. He took it that except in the case of the London County Council the power was to be transferred to the Local Government Board. He asked why, in the name of all that was reasonable, powers were to be vested in the Local Government Board in regard to all the other authorities in the kingdom, while in the case of the London County Council similar powers were to be exercised by the Treasury.

    *

    said he was sorry he could not agree with his hon. friends. Speaking as a former member of the London County Council, he thought there was nothing unreasonable in this clause. He, therefore, would not be able to support the Amendment.

    *

    said he had listened with astonishment to the remarks of the previous speaker. He could not understand why, whenever legislation was proposed in this House the London County Council was made a special exception. He spoke as a novice, but not as a novice in county government. He had as much experience in county government as most right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. He thought he might make that claim, as he had been appointed an alderman in his county. That was an indication that, at any rate, he had done something to deserve the position. He objected to the London County Council being excepted, on the ground that it was perfectly obvious that the Treasury in the past had not exercised that amount of control over London County Council finance which it ought to have done. Therefore the sooner this power passed into the hands of the President of the Local Government Board the better. The right hon. Gentleman was one of the practical Members of the Government, and there was abundant reason why the Local Government Board should have complete control over purchases and sales of property by the London County Council. He spoke for Middlesex, a populous county which, ought to have the same rights. What was good for the London County Council was good for the Middlesex County Council. Could any hon. Member say that the finances of the London County Council were in such a condition that the control of the Treasury should be any longer continued? If it was to the advantage of the bodies governed by Sub-section 1 to have the control transferred to the Local Government Board a fortiori it should be in the case of the London County Council, whose financial programme had been so lamentably disastrous from the point of view of the London ratepayer. When they considered the many speculations, and the enormous sum of money flung away annually in the promotion of hopeless. Bills in Parliament and in opposing every conceivable kind of other Bills, he submitted that if any body ought to be under practical management it was the London County Council, which was the spendthrift of all local authorities.

    said that, seeing a number of Members of the London County Council among the hon. Members opposite, he was surprised that no one had risen to explain the reason which had led the Government to adopt the position they had done. He hoped some light would be thrown on the subject.

    said he saw no reason why the London County Council should be treated differently from the other county councils in the country. No proper explanation of the powers to be conferred by the Bill on the London County Council had been given. The London ratepayers were daily being bled, and it was due to them that the strongest possible opposition should be offered to increased powers being given to the county council. He did not like to mention the words "steamboats," "Kingsway" and "Aldwych." Kingsway was beautiful, but it was one of the most useless streets London possessed.

    I do not think the remarks of the hon. Member have any connection with the Amendment. I must ask him to speak to the Amendment.

    said his remarks could be connected with the Amendment in this way. The Committee had not much information before them as to the powers sought, to be given to the London County Council.

    No new powers are given to the London County Council. They are to remain exactly as they stand now.

    said his contention was that for the purpose of endeavouring to curb the expenditure and horrible extravagance of the London County Council they should do all they could to carry this Amendment.

    *

    said the London County Council performed some very useful services; but the newest of its services was that it enabled hon. Members on the other side to prolong the debates of the Imperial Parliament. It was rather a curious thing that the one member of the London County Council on the other side who knew anything about the subject at all had announced his intention of separating himself from his Party on this question. The London County Council with regard to its finances stood in a different position from that of any other county council, and for the very simple reason that all its dealings with capital came under the review of Parliament every year. Every year a Money Bill had to come before Parliament on which the whole of the council's actions with regard to finance were reviewed, and the Treasury very properly retained to itself the right to advise Parliament on the subject. If the Government had been ill-advised enough to include the London County Council in the Bill they would have had a very long debate indeed. He hoped with this explanation they might pass on to some I matters of more Imperial concern.

    said he should not have intervened in the debate but for the speech of the hon. Member for North St. Pancras, which was absolutely uncalled for. He had made an attack on hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House who declined to fall down and worship the London County Council. He spoke, not as a member of that body, nor as an alderman of Middlesex, but as a business man and a lawyer. He wanted to know why the London County Council should be treated exceptionally as compared with other local authorities. He had grave doubts whether it was necessary at all to I transfer these powers to the Local Government Board, but he should have thought if it was required anywhere, it I was in the case of the London County Council. No one could doubt that, compared with any other local authority, the London County Council acted in a most extravagant way. Everyone knew perfectly well that in regard to their steamboat service there was a want of requisite supervision. He had heard no real reason given for treating the London County Council differently from other county councils. The only reason alleged was that the London County Council lent as well as borrowed money; but, not being a Member of a county council, he protested against this privilege being given to the London County Council, which was in no way superior to any other county or district council.

    *

    said that the hon. Gentleman had fairly asked for, and was as fairly entitled to, some explanation as to why the Treasury differentiated between the London County Council and the other county councils. He would supply that information with pleasure. The size of London, its population, the large amount of money it had to borrow and to spend, differentiated it from the Metropolitan Asylums Board and the ordinary county councils. The London County Council had powers conferred upon it, derived from its predecessors, not only of spending money but of lending money to local authorities, such as the old vestries, the borough councils, the old school board, the Thames Conservancy, etc., under the sanction of the Treasury. Therefore, the London County Council was entitled to differential treatment, That power was clearly recognised by Mr. Ritchie in the 1888 Act; and the late Government brought in what was practically a replica of this very Bill, and if they had remained in office he believed that his hon. friend the late Secretary of the Treasury would have been doing exactly what his hon. friend the present I Secretary of the Treasury was doing. It was only right that his hon. friend should explain what power Parliament had over the London County Council by virtue of its being a spending and a lending body. Every sum of money which it lent had to be embodied in a Bill which had to come within the purview of Parliament, and that Bill generally passed sub silentio. At any rate, he had never heard any discussion j upon it. The Treasury hail very frequently to put loans on the money market for £10,000,000 or £15,000,000 for Imperial purposes; and supposing such an Imperial loan to synchronise with a London County Council loan for a big drainage or tramway or waterworks scheme, the Treasury would not get its money as cheaply as it might do. These arrangements as to raising loans, more over, were in the interest of sound finance, wise control, and honest administration by both the Treasury and the London County Council. He trusted that with good temper and the information he had been able to give to the Committee hon. Members would allow this Bill to pass.

    wished to take the opportunity of making an explanation. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board had said that he was responsible for the Bill of last year. In introducing that Bill he was only following in the footsteps of his predecessors since the year 1888. But last year the House was certainly informed that if the late Government attempted to press that Bill they would be met with the opposition of hon. Gentleman who were now supporting this Bill. At the same time he hoped that his hon. friend would not press his Motion.

    asked leave to withdraw his Amendment, but in doing so he wished to take exception to the remarks of hon. Gentlemen on the Ministerial Benches.

    Amendment, by leave, withdraw.

    said that he was very pleased to hear that there was some compromise between the Treasury and the London County Council. There were many men who had a deep-rooted suspicion in regard to the expenditure of the London County Council; and he still maintained that the London County Council should not have exceptional powers conferred upon them which were not granted to Liverpool, Manchester,Leeds and other great provincial cities.

    The hon. Gentleman keeps on talking about the powers of the London County Council, but his Amendment has nothing whatever to do with the London County Council.

    said he wished to put these towns on the same footing as London under the London County Council. That was why he moved that towns containing over 200,000 inhabitants should enjoy the same privileges through their council as were enjoyed by the London County Council.

    Amendment proposed—

    "In page 1, line 7, after the word 'Council,' to insert the words 'or any Corporation of a town containing over two hundred thousand inhabitants.'"—(Mr. Charles Craig.)

    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

    said he rose to a point of order. The hon. Gentleman proposed to remove certain powers from the Local Government Board, and he wished to know if the controlling authority was taken away from that body upon which body it would rest.

    said that the hon. Member had not understood the purport of the Bill. There were certain powers at present exercised by local authorities, and the sanctioning of those powers rested in nearly every case with the Local Government Board. There were certain exceptions to that rule, however, and in some few instances the sanction was given by the Treasury. The purpose of the Bill was to transfer from the Treasury to the Local Government Board the power of sanction in those exceptional cases, and the questions raised by the hon. Member as to the extravagance of local authorities and as to the misdeeds of the London County Council had nothing to do with the subject dealt with by the Bill. This Bill merely referred to the sanctioning of borrowing powers, and therefore all the questions raised by the hon. Member did not arise on this clause. He hoped that after that explanation hon. Members would allow them to have this very simple and very small Bill passed.

    said he wished to deal with this question from the point of view of such a place as Liverpool, where he had occupied the highest position that it was possible for a citizen to fill, namely that of Lord Mayor. This clause purported to hand over powers in respect of borrowing from the Treasury to the Local Government Board. [Cries of "No."] If the clause did not mean that it did not mean anything. He took it that if this clause was passed and if this Amendment was not adopted, in all these cases in which the City of Liverpool had now to go to the Treasury for their consent for whatever they wanted to do, they would have to go in future to the Local Government Board. The sanction in question was sometimes needed to enable the corporation to dispose of some property. It might be only two or three square yards in order to effect a public improvement. Sometimes, of course, however, it referred to the disposal of several acres. In each of these cases they now had to ask for the permission of the Treasury, and no property could be disposed of in fee simple without the consent of that body. He had challenged the Secretary of the Treasury to give an example of the way those powers were exercised, but he had not done so. His point was that as a matter of democratic fairness one authority should be treated in exactly the same way as another. They had 650,000 people in Liverpool, and with the exception of the County Council of London they had the chief municipality in England. Why, therefore, should they have their powers and jurisdiction summarily handed over under this clause from the Treasury to the Local Government Board; and why should the London County Council be expressly excluded from the provision? He submitted as a matter of fairness that the same exception should be made in regard to all other large municipalities. The Secretary of the Treasury had said that the London County Council was a lending authority. All the great authorities of the country were lending authorities, and in Liverpool they lent over £100,000 a year. He approached this question from a different standpoint from some of his hon. friends, and did not wish to throw any reproaches on the London County Council.

    The hon. Member must not now talk about the London County Council. The question is not one referring to the London County Council, but is whether the words "or any corporation of a town containing over 200,000 inhabitants" shall be inserted.

    said his only reason for mentioning the London County Council was that another city with which he had been connected for years was treated in an exceptional way, whereas his contention was that it ought to be treated in the same way and receive the same privileges, and they should not in a Bill of this sort single out one authority for absolutely exceptional treatment. If the provisions applied to the Metropolis were good, surely they were equally good for large and important and well-governed cities in other parts of the country. For these reasons he desired to support the Amendment.

    said he wished to point out that the City of Liverpool was for these purposes under the Local Government Board.

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Rt.Hn.SirAlex FDouglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-O'Neill, If on. Robert Torrens
    Anstruther-Gray, MajorFaber, George Dension (York)Parkes, Ebenezer
    Ashley, W. W.Fell, ArthurRatcliff, Major R. F.
    Aubrey-Fletcher, Rt.Hon.SirHFinch, Rt. Hon. George H.Rawlinson, John Frederick P.
    Balcarres, LordFletcher, J. S.Remnant, James Farquharson
    Baring, Hon. Guy (WinchesterForster, Henry WilliamRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall
    Beckett, Hon. GervaseHaddock, George R.Rutherford. W. W. (Liverpool
    Bignold, Sir ArthurHamilton, Marquess ofSalter, Arthur Clavell
    Bowles, G. StewartHarrison-Broadley, Col. H. B.Sloan, Thomas Henry
    Boyle, Sir EdwardHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeStanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk
    Bridgeman, W. CliveHelmsley, ViscountStarkey, John R.
    Carlile, E. HildredHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Stone, Sir Benjamin
    Cave, GeorgeHill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark
    Cecil, Evelyn, (Aston Manor)Houston, Robert PatersonValentin, Viscount
    Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Kennaway, Rt.Hon.SirJohnH.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.Lane-Fox, G. R.Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
    Coates, E.Feetham (LewishamLiddell, HenryWilson, A.Stanley (York, E.R.
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Lonsdale, John BrownleeWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
    Courthope, G. LoydMacIver, David (Liverpool)Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George
    Craig, CaptainJames (Down,E.Mason, James F. (Windsor
    Cross, AlexanderMeysey-Thompson, E. C.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Bull and Mr. Charles Craig.

    Dalrymple, ViscountMorpeth, Viscount
    Dixon-Hartland, SirFredDixonMuntz, Sir Philip A.
    Doughty, Sir GeorgeO' Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.Armitage, R.Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E
    Abraham, William (Rhondda)Ashton, Thomas GairBalfour, Robert (Lanark)
    Acland, Francis DykeAsquith, Rt.Hon.Herbt. HenryBaring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)
    Adkins, W. RylandAstbury, John MeirBarlow, Percy (Bedford)
    Alden, PercyAtherley-Jones, L.Barnard, E. B.
    Allen, A.Acland (Christchurch)Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Barnes, G. N.

    said the hon. member might object to it, but this Amendment would not alter it. This Amendment proposed to except from the transfer of powers from the Treasury to the Local Government Board corporations of towns containing over 200,000 inhabitants. The truth, was that those towns were already under the Local Government Board. Under the Local Government Act of 1888 there were certain exceptions, provisions in regard to which were left out by inadvertence, so that that Act did not apply to certain old local Acts, and it was in relation to those old local Acts and the provisions in regard to baths and wash-houses and in regard to the Burial Acts that this Bill proposed to transfer the powers of the Treasury to the Local Government Board. The whole argument of hon. Members, although no doubt very valuable in itself, was based upon a misapprehension of the facts.

    Question put.

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 67; Noes, 347. (Division List, No. 76.)

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)Ellis, Rt. Hon. John EdwardKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)
    Beauchamp, E.Erskine, David C.Laidlaw, Robert
    Beaumont, Hubert(EastbourneEsmonde, Sir ThomasLamb, Ernest H. (Rochester
    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)Evans, Samuel T.Lambert, George
    Bell, RichardEve, Harry TrelawneyLamont, Norman
    Bellairs, CarlyonEverett, R. LaceyLaw, Hugh Alexander
    Benn, JohnWilliams(Dovonp'rtFaber, G. H. (Boston)Lawson, Sir Wilfrid
    Benn, W.(T'w'rHamlets,S.Geo.Fenwick, CharlesLayland-Barratt, Francis
    Bennett, E. N.Ferens, T. R.Leese, Sir JosephF.(Accrington
    Berridge, T. H. D.Ferguson, R. C. MunroLehmann, R. C.
    Billson, AlfredFiennes, Hon. EustaceLever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral
    Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineFindlay, AlexanderLevy, Maurice
    Black, ArthurW.(BedfordshireFlavin, Michael JosephLewis, John Herbert
    Boland, JohnFuller, John Michael F.Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
    Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire,N.E.)Fullerton, HughLough, Thomas
    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)Gibb, James, (Harrow)Lundon, W.
    Brace, WilliamGilhooly, JamesLuttrell, Hugh Fownes
    Brarasdon, T. A.Gill, A. H.Lyell, Charles Henry
    Branch, JamesGinnell, L.Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
    Brigg, JohnGladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohnMacNeill, John Gordon Swift
    Brocklehurst, W. D.Glendinning, R. G.MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down.S.
    Brunner, J. F. L.(Lanes.,Leigh)Glover, ThomasMacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.)
    Bryce, J. A. (InvernessBurghs)Goddard, Daniel FordM'Callum, John M.
    Buchanan, Thomas RyburnGooch, George PeabodyM'Crae, George
    Buckmaster, Stanley O.Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)M'Hugh, Patrick A.
    Buras, Rt. Hon. JohnGrey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardM'Kenna, Reginald
    Burnyeat, J. D. W.Griffith, Ellis, J.M'Killop, W.
    Buxton, Rt. Hn.SydneyCharlesGulland, John W.M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)
    Byes, William PollardGurdon, Sir W. BramptonM'Micking, Major G.
    Cairns, ThomasHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Maddison, Frederick
    Carr-Gomm, H- W.Hall, FrederickMallet, Charles E.
    Cawley, FrederickHalpin, J.Manfield, Harry (Northants)
    Chance, Frederick WilliamHammond, JohnMarks, G. Croydon (Launceston
    Channing, Francis AllstonHardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)Marnham, F. J.
    Cheetham, John FrederickHarmsworth, Cecil B.(Worc'r.)Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Hart-Davies, T.Massie, J.
    Churchill, Winston SpencerHarwood, GeorgeMasterman, C. F. G.
    Cleland, J. W.Haslam, James (Derbyshire)Meagher, Michael
    Clough, W.Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Median, Patrick A.
    Clynes, J. R.Haworth, Arthur A.Menzies, Walter
    Cobbold, Felix ThornleyHayden, John PatrickMicklem, Nathaniel
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hazel, Dr. A. E.Molteno, Percy Alport
    Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,WHazelton, RichardMond, A.
    Condon, Thomas JosephHelme, Norval WatsonMontagu, E. S.
    Cooper, G. J.Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Montgomery, H. H.
    Corbett, CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'dHenderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.Mooney, J. J.
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Herbert, Colonel Ivor(Mon.,S.)Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Higham, John SharpWorrell, Philip
    Cowan, W. H.Hobart, Sir RobertMorse, L. L.
    Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Hobhouse, Charles E. H.Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
    Crean, EugeneHodge, JohnMurphy, John
    Cremer, William RandalHogan, MichaelMurray, James
    Crombie, John WilliamHooper, A. G.Napier, T. B.
    Crosfield, A. H.Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)
    Crossley, William J.Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,NNicholson, Chai'lesN.(Doncast'r
    Dalziel, James HenryHorniman, Emslie JohnNolan, Joseph
    Davies, David(MontgomeryCo.Hudson, WalterNorton, Capt. Cecil William
    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Hutton, Alfred EddisonNussey, Thomas Willans
    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Hyde, ClarendonNuttall, Harry
    Devlin,CharlesRamsay(GalwayIllingworth, Percy H.O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
    Dickinson, W.H.(St.Pancras,NJackson, R. S.O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
    Dillon, JohnJenkins, J.O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
    Dolan, Charles JosephJohnson, John (Gateshead)O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
    Donelan, Captain A.Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
    Duckworth, JamesJones, David Brynmor(SwanseaO'Grady J.
    Duffy, William J.Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessJones, William(CarnarvonshireO'Kelly, James (Roscommon,N
    Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) jJowett, F. W.O'Malley, William
    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Joyce, MichaelO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
    Dunne, Major E. M. (Walsall)Kearley, Hudson, E.O'Shee, James John
    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)Kennedy, Vincent PaulParker, James (Halifax)
    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)Kilbride, DenisPaul, Herbert
    Elibank, Master ofKincaid-Smith, CaptainPearce, William (Limehouse)

    Perks, Robert WilliamSeddon, J.Walsh, Stephen
    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Seely, Major J. B.Walters, John Tudor
    Pickersgill, Edward HareShackleton, David JamesWard, John (Stoke upon Trent
    Pirie, Duncan V.Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Ward, W.Dudley(South'mpton
    Pollard, Dr.Sheehan, Daniel DanielWardle, George J.
    Power, Patrick JosephSheehy, DavidWason, Eugene (Clackmannan}
    Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, CentralShipman, Dr. John G.Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney
    Priestley, W.E. B.(Bradford,ESilcock, Thomas BallWaterlow, D. S.
    Radford, G. H.Sinclair, Rt. Hon. JohnWedgwood, Josiah C.
    Rainy, A. RollandSmeaton, Donald MackenzieWeir, James Galloway
    Raphael, Herbert H.Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)Whitbread, Howard
    Reddy, M.Snowden, P.White, George (Norfolk)
    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Soares Ernest J.,White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
    Redmond, William (Clare)Spicer, AlbertWhite, Luke (York, E.R.)
    Rees, J. D.Stanger, H. Y.White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Richards, T.F.(Wolverhampt'nStanley, Hn. A. LyuIph(Chesh.Whitehead, Rowland
    Richardson, A.Steadman, W. C.Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
    Rickett, J. ComptonStewart, Halley (Greenock)Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
    Ridsdale, E. A.Strachey, Sir EdwardWiles, Thomas
    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)Wilkie, Alexander
    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Stuart, James (SunderlandWilliams, J. (Glamorgan)
    Robertson, Rt.Hn. E.(Dundee)Sullivan, DonalWilliams, Osmond (Merioneth)
    Robertson, SirG.Scott(Bradf'rdSummerbell, T.Williams, W. L. (Carmarthen)
    Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Sutherland, J. E.Williamson, A.(Elgin andNairn.
    Robinson, S.Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)Wilson, Hon. C.H.W.(Hull,W.)
    Roe, Sir ThomasTaylor, John W. (Durham)Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)
    Rose, Charles DayTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
    Rowlands, J.Tennant, E. P. (Salisbury)Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
    Runciman, WalterThomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.)Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.
    Russell, T. W.Thomas, David Alfred(MerthyrWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Thompson, J.W. H. (Somerset.E.Wodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid
    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Tomkinson, JamesWood, T. M'Kinnon
    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)Torrance, A. M.Woodhouse,SirJ.T.(Huddersfd
    Scarisbriek, T. T. L.Toulmin, GeorgeYoung, Samuel
    Schwann, Chas.E.(Manchester)Trevelyan, Charles Philips
    Scott, A.H.(Ashtonunder LyneUre, Alexander

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

    Sears, J. E.Verney, F. W.
    Seaverns, J, H.Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)

    said he desired to omit the words referring to the Baths and Wash-houses' Acts, partly in order to obtain information, and partly because it seemed to him that this was an instance of very-careless drafting. He had gone to the trouble of investigating the Acts, and he found in Clause 9 of the Act of 1878, which was the Act governing the others, that the approval of the Local Government Board should be substituted for that of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury in all cases where money was borrowed for the purposes of the Act. It seemed to him, therefore, that these words were hardly necessary.

    Amendment proposed—

    "In page 1, lines 8 and 9, to leave out the words 'the Baths and Washhouses Acts. 1846 to 1899.'"—(Mr. Lane-Fox.

    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

    said the proposal here did not deal with powers regarding; loans, but with other powers. The local authorities disliked very much having to go to different offices for practically the same purpose, and it was in the interests of the local authorities themselves that this provision was proposed.

    Amendment by leave withdrawn.

    MR. LANE-FOX moved to omit Sub-Section 2, which ran—

    "Such power exorcised before the passing of this Act by the Treasury or the Local Government Board shall be deemed to have been duly-exercised."

    That implied that certain powers had been exercised without authority, and the Committee required some explanation of this. Very considerable issues might rest upon the Sub-section, because if such powers had been illegally exercise,

    and they were found out later on, the local authorities might wish to take advantage of the illegality.

    Amendment proposed—

    "In page 1, Hue 14, to leave out Sub-section (2).'—(Mr. Lane-Fox.)

    Question proposed, "That Sub-section (2) stand part of the Clause."

    said he agreed that this clause also required some explanation. It was not known that any case had arisen, but the sub-section had been introduced for the security of local authorities. Powers having been exercised sometimes by the Treasury and sometimes by the Local Government Board, it was conceivable that there might be cases in which the local authority had not received proper sanction. It was not known that such cases existed, but as an act of indemnity to the local authorities this clause had been inserted.

    said it was very remarkable that the hon. and learned Gentleman was unable to tell the Committee that there were any cases of illegality which had made the insertion of this sub-section necessary. It was apparently a roving commission. It made him very suspicious; of course, he did not mean it in any offensive way, hut he could not see why the sub-section should be put in. He thought it would be a dangerous precedent to insert in an Act of Parliament an indemnity for certain offences which in the opinion of the responsible Minister had never actually taken place.

    *

    said that if there had been no error committed clearly the sub-section was not wanted. If there had been any illegality then this sub-section might interfere with the lights of private persons who were not present to be heard. If there were a

    AYES.
    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Adkins, W. RylandArmitage, R.
    Abraham, William (Rhondda)Allen, A, Acland(Christchurch)Astbury, John Meir
    Acland, Francis DykeAllen, Charles P. (Stroud)Atherley-Jones, L.

    real case of hardship brought before the House it might be met by a bill of indemnity. But to legislate in the dark was entirely new; if not new, it was time it should be stopped.

    did not think that by the course they were pursuing hon. Members opposite were acting in the interests of local authorities, who might have done acts under the sanction of the Local Government Board when they should have had the sanction of the Treasury, and under the sanction of the Treasury when they should have had the sanction of the Local Government Board. This Bill was a measure dealing with the transfer of these powers from one authority to another. In order to relieve local authorities from anxiety in these matters he hoped the Committee would pass this sub-section.

    said lie could not see the force of the hon. Member's argument. Surely there was another point to be considered, namely, whether it was likely that such cases would occur when they had such watchful offices as the Treasury and the Local Government Board. It was rather a reflection upon the work both of the Local Government Board and of the Treasury to contemplate that, under the very able officials of those Departments, sanction had been given to proposals of local authorities when, as a matter of fact, under Act of Parliament they had no right to give that sanction.

    said that after the unsatisfactory explanation which had been given he could not withdraw his Amendment. This was a wrong form of legislation, and they were simply legislating; in the dark.

    Question put.

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 298; Noes, 37. (Division List, No. 77.)

    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Evans, Samuel, T.Lundon, W.
    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.Eve, Harry TrelawneyLyell, Charles Henry
    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Everett, R. LaceyMacdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Faber, G. H. (Boston)MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Fenwick, CharlesMacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down,S.)
    Barnard, E. B.Ferens, T. R.MacVeigh, Charles(Donegal,E.
    Barnes, G. N.Findlay, AlexanderM'Callum, John M.
    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)Flavin, Michael JosephM'Crae, George
    Beauchamp, E.Flynn, James ChristopherM'Hugh, Patrick A.
    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)Fuller, John Michael F.M'Kenna, Reginald
    Bell, RichardFullerton, HughM'Killop, W."
    Bellairs, CarlyonGibb, James (Harrow)M'Micking, Major G.
    Benn, John Williams(Devonp'rGill, A. H.Maddison, Frederick
    Benn, W.(T'w'rH'mlets,S.Geo.Ginnell, L.Manfield, Harry (Northants)
    Bennett, E. N.Gladstone, Rt.Hn.HerbertJohnMarks, G. Croydon(Launceston)
    Berridge, T. H. D.Glover, ThomasMainham, F. J.
    Billson, AlfredGoddard, Daniel FordMassie, J.
    Black, Arthur W.(BedfordshireGreenwood, G. (Peterborough)Masterman, C. F. G.
    Boland, JohnGrey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardMeagher, Michael
    Bolton, T.D.(Derbyshire,N.E.)Gulland, John W.Meehan, Patrick A.
    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)Gurdon, Sir W. BramptonMenzies, Walter
    Brace, WilliamHaldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Micklem, Nathaniel
    Bramsden, T. A.Hall, FrederickMolteno, Percy Alport
    Branch, JamesHalpin, J.Mond, A.
    Brigg, JohnHammond, JohnMontagu, E. S.
    Brocklehurst, W. D.Hardie, J.Keir(MerthyrTydvil)Montgomery, H. H.
    Bryce, J. A. (Inverness Burghs)Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.)Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHart-Davies, T.Morrell, Philip
    Burnycat, J. D. W.Harwood, GeorgeMorse, L. L.
    Buxton, Rt.Hn.SydneyCharlesHaslam, James (Derbyshire)Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
    Byles, William PollardHalsam, Lewis (Monmouth)Murphy, John
    Cairns, ThomasHaworth, Arthur A.Murray, James
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Hazel, Dr. A. E.Napier, T. B.
    Chance, Frederick WilliamHazleton, RichardNicholson, CharlesN.(Doncast'r
    Channing, Francis AllstonHelme, Norval WatsonNolan, Joseph
    Cheetham, John FrederickHenderson, Arthur (DurhamNorton, Capt. Cecil William
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Henderson, J.M.(Aberdeen,W.)Nuttall, Harry
    Churchill, Winston SpencerHigham, John SharpO'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid
    Clancy, John JosephHobart, Sir RobertO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny
    Clarke, C. Goddard (PeckhamHobhouse, Charles E. H.O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W.)
    Cleland, J. W.Hodge, JohnO'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
    Clough, W.Hogan, MichaelO'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
    Clynes, J. R.Hooper, A. G.O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)O'Kelly, James(Roscommon,N
    Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,WHope, W.Bateman(Somerset,NO'Malley, William
    Condon, Thomas JosephHorniman, Emslie JohnO'Mara, James
    Corbett,C.H.(Sussex,E.Grints'dHudson, WalterO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hyde, ClarendonO'Shee, James John
    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Illingworth, Percy H.Parker, James (Halifax)
    Cowan, W. H.Jackson, R. S.Paul, Herbert
    Crean, EugeneJenkins, J.Pearce, William (Limehouse)
    Cremer, William RandalJohnson, W. (Nuneaton)Pearson, W.H.M. (Suffolk, Eye)
    Crombie, John WilliamJones, David Brynmor(SwanseaPhilipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)
    Crossley, William J.Jones, Leif (Appleby)Pickersgill, Edward Hare
    Dalziel, James HenryJones, William (CarnarvonshirePirie, Duncan V.
    Davies,David(MontgomeryCo.Jowett, F. W.Pollard, Dr.
    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Joyce, MichaelPower, Patrick Joseph
    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Kearley, Hudson E.Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
    Devlin, CharlesRamsay(GalwayKennedy, Vincent Paul.Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.)
    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Kilbride, DenisRadford, G. H.
    Dolan, CharlesJosephKincaid-Smith, CaptainRainy, A. Rolland
    Donelan, Captain A.King, Alfred John (Knutsford)Raphael, Herbert H.
    Duckworth, JamesLaidlaw, RobertReddy, M.
    Duffy, William J.Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessLambert, GeorgeRees, J. D.
    Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)Lamont, NormanRichards, T.F.(Wolverh'mpt'n
    Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Lawson, Sir WilfridRickett, J. Compton
    Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)Layland-Barratt, FrancisRidsdale, E. A.
    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)Lehmann, R. C.Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
    Elibank, Master ofLever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
    Ellis, Rt. Hon. John EdwardLevy, MauriceRobertson,SirG.Scott(Bradf'rd
    Erskine, David C.Lewis, John HerbertRobertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
    Esmonde, Sir ThomasLough, ThomasRobinson, S.

    Roe, Sir ThomasSteadman, W. C.Weir, James Galloway
    Rose, Charles DayStewart, Halley (Greenock)White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
    Rowlands, J.Strachey, Sir EdwardWhite, Luke (York, E.R.)
    Runciman, WalterStuart, James (Sunderland)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Russell, T. W.Sullivan, DonalWhitehead, Rowland
    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Summerbell, T.Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Sutherland, J. E.Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)Taylor, John W. (Durham)Wiles, Thomas
    Scott,A. H. (Ashton under LyneTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Wilkie, Alexander
    Sears, J. E.Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
    Seddon, J.Thompson, J.W.H.(Somerset,EWilliams, W. L. (Carmar hen)
    Shackleton, David JamesTomkinson, JamesWilliamson, A. (Elgin & Nairn)
    Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.)Torrance, A. M.Wilson, Hon.C.H.W.(Hull,W.)
    Sheehan, Daniel DanielToulmin, GeorgeWilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
    Sheehy, DavidUre, AlexanderWilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
    Shipman, Dr. John G.Verney, F. W.Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
    Silcock, Thomas BallVivian, HenryWilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
    Sinclair, Rt. Hon. JohnWalker, H. De R. (Leicester)Wilson, W. T. (Weathoughton)
    Smeaton, Donald MackenzieWalsh, StephenWodehouse, Lord(Norfolk,Mid.
    Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)Walters, John TudorWood, T. M'Kinnon
    Snowden, P.Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent)Young, Samuel
    Soares, Ernest J.Ward,W.Dudley(Southampton
    Spicer, AlbertWardle, George J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr Whiteley and Mr. J. A Pease.

    Stanger, H. Y.Wason, JohnCathcart(Orkney)
    Stanley, Hon.A. Lyulph(Chesh.Waterlow, D. S.

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood,Rt,Hn.SirAlex.FDalrymple, ViscountRawlinson, John Frederick P_
    Arkwright, John StanhopeDoughty, Sir GeorgeRemnant, James Farquharson
    Balcarres, LordFell, ArthurRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Bignold, Sir ArthurFinch, Rt. Hon. George H.Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool).
    Bowles, G. StewartForster, Henry WilliamSalter, Arthur Clavell
    Boyle, Sir EdwardHaddock, George R.Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk
    Bridgeman, W. CliveHelmsley, ViscountStone, Sir Benjamin
    Carlile, E. HildredHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanark)
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Hill, Henry Staveley(Staff'sh.)Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Houston, Robert Paterson
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Meysey-Thompson, E.C.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Cave and Mr. Lane-Fox..

    Craig, CharlesCurtis(Antrim,S.)Muntz, Sir Philip A.
    Craig, CaptainJames(Down,E.)Parkes, Ebenezer
    Cross, AlexanderRatcliff, Major R. F.

    MR. WILLIAM RUTHERFORD moved an Amendment to leave out Subsection 3. He pointed out that the Committee, by adopting Sub-section 2, had determined that all acts done before the passing of this Bill by the Treasury or by the Local Government Board should not be capable of being questioned as to irregularity. It was right, therefore, that the Committee should consider the circumstances under which this clause would be applicable. If any question arose as to its applicability it would arise in a Court of justice, and he could imagine a case in which the Court of Appeal might be asked to determine whether this particular Act applied to the conditions referred to in some other Act or Acts. He had in the course of the last few minutes made a. computation, and he found that the enactments referred to by this subsection amounted to several hundreds. All kinds of questions were bound to arise from time to time in regard to matters that would hardly appear at first sight to have a direct connection with the subject matter of such a sub-section as this. It was proposed under this perfectly new clause to substitute for the Courts of Law the Treasury as the judicial authority which was to give an absolute decision without any appeal, and without any provision for the case being argued on either side. It struck him that this proposal was absurd, mischievous, and novel from almost any point of view.

    Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present.

    House counted and forty Members being found present,

    said that of all the clauses he had seen in the different. Acts they had to deal with this was about the most astonishing. He thought the only sensible thing the Committee could do was to leave out Sub-section 3. And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further proceeding was postponed without Question put.

    Mersey Railway Bill Lords (By Order)

    Order for Second Reading read.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

    *

    , in moving the rejection of the Bill, explained that the special objection of the Birkenhead Corporation was to Clause 5, which empowered the company to run motor-omnibuses within the borough of Birkenhead. There were two aspects of this question—the special and local aspect, and the general aspect of the application of this principle to similar companies throughout the country. With regard to the purely local aspect, this company had not been in a good way since it was established, and the Birkenhead Corporation had had considerable difficulty in getting some of the liabilities of the company met. In the Bill empowering the company to act, Parliament allotted the corporation £50,000 compensation for the injury done to the ferry service of that body, and of that sum £20,000 only was paid, and they had to take the remainder in five per cent, debentures which, however, made no return. They agreed to the reduction to three per cent., but not even that was forthcoming, and it practically meant that Birkenhead had lost the best part of £30,000 on that transaction. Since that time, in order to grapple with the necessities of the increasing population, Birkenhead had spent £300,000 on their trams, and there was not a point in Birkenhead that was more than a quarter of a mile from a tram route. Therefore public convenience in no way demanded the facility which the railway company now sought. Further, Birkenhead streets were already sufficiently congested. There was no petition from Birkenhead in favour of this clause and there was no demand for it. There was not even any evidence to show that these motor omnibuses were desired by people in Birkenhead. Under such circumstances he thought due consideration should be given to the attitude of the corporation whose views he was presenting. With regard to the general argument on this matter, it was not desirable for the House without very careful consideration to confer powers indiscriminately on existing monopolies to run their motor omnibuses all over the public roads. On general grounds competition was not objected to, but the indiscriminate conferring of these powers would ultimately lead not to healthy competition, but merely to an extension of the existing monopoly of a great railway company which, like other railway companies, had means of utilising its power really to the detriment of healthy competition. He was supported in his argument by the fact that the most important corporations in the country took the same view, and therefore he asked the House to adopt the Resolution standing in his name.

    said he had been asked by the Tramways Committee of the Corporation of Sheffield to second the Resolution proposed by the hon. Member for Birkenhead. The Corporation of Sheffield feared if these powers were granted to monopolies of this character it might form a precedent for future Bills. They had in Sheffield a very complete system of tramways, thirty-five or thirty-six miles in length, upon which the corporation had spent very nearly a million and a quarter of money. It would be an injustice to them if an outside body like a railway company were allowed to come in and run motor omnibuses in competition with them, and to run those omnibuses not only to and from the stations, but to catch the general traffic, picking up and setting down in the streets. He did not know that there would be so much objection to their running to and from their own stations simply, but that was not the point. Here the railway company wanted to run in competition with the local authority. In support of his argument he would quote the following Resolution passed by the Municipal Tramways Conference some time ago—

    "That in the opinion of this Conference it is desirable that the omnibus clauses in the Railway Bills now before Parliament should be deleted from those Bills so far as regards running omnibuses by the railway companies in any city, borough or district in which the local authority runs or works tramways, and that all practicable steps be taken with a view to bringing about this result."

    Amendment proposed—

    "To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words 'upon this day six months.'"—(Mr. Vivian.)

    Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

    *

    said he did not propose to deal with the merits or demerits of the Bill. He understood that the principle which was sought to be established by this debate was that where tramways were municipally owned they should be exempt from competition by railway-owned omnibuses. If the House rejected this Bill now, however, they would be withholding consideration of the matter from the properly constituted authority that the House had set up, viz., the Select Committee. Before that Committee all interests could be considered, and he thought that it would be contrary to the best interests of Parliament if they came to a final decision on the Bill now. He might point out that this Bill had been before a Committee in another place and that they had not objected to it. Surely it was not for the House of Commons to say on a matter of this kind that they would decide the Bill upon the Second Reading and hold that it should not go upstairs. His advice was that the Bill should be read a second time and sent to a Committee. He had no bias in the matter and held no brief either for the Bill or against it, and it was his duty as a representative of the Board of Trade to put before the House that very simple proposal.

    said he could not support his hon. friend who moved the total rejection of the Bill, and he should advise him to withdraw that Motion and to proceed with his instruction to the Committee to delete the objectionable clause. In his opinion, Parliament having imposed certain conditions upon tramway promoters in connection with the powers conferred upon them, and the tramway companies having spent large sums of money in providing accommodation for the district, railway companies should not be given unrestricted power of competition and afforded facilities for running motor-buses without specifying where the working was to begin or end. Moreover, the money which the railway company would have to spend upon this project was raised for other purposes. He thought that it was not a businesslike proceeding on the part of the House to sanction such competition. While he did not object to legitimate competition, he did say that such action would not be fair on the part of the House. For these reasons he thought the House ought not to allow this kind of clause to be put in Railway Bills, although he admitted that in country districts, where no accommodation had been authorised by Parliament, it might be right that such powers should be given to railway companies. But he thought that care should be taken that in Railway Bills this power was confined to districts in which Parliament had not already authorised tramways

    *

    said that perhaps the House would allow him to say a word or two on this Bill, because he was thoroughly familiar with all the local circumstances. This was not the case of a rich railway company, but it was the case of a struggling company, who wished to improve the connection between the two sides of the River Mersey. The company had never paid a dividend, and their line was simply a tunnel between the two sides of the River Mersey. Both the ferry and the tunnel were doing good work between Liverpool and Birken-head. The subject of these motor omnibuses which were now in question was one upon which there had been a good deal of difference of opinion. The railway company wished to improve the through traffic, and began to run omnibuses in connection with their trains; but the Birkenhead Corporation stepped in, and there was litigation. The corporation sought to restrain the railway company from running these omnibuses which they regarded as competing with their steamers and trams. It was not quite true to say that the Birkenhead Corporation were altogether unanimous against the Mersey Railway Company. Many people in Birkenhead thought that it would be a great advantage if the tunnel connection was improved, and extended by the use of motor omnibuses. There were, however, some people in Birkenhead, and although he was not a property owner in the borough he sympathised with their view, who thought that the running of motor omnibuses in certain out-lying portions of Birkenhead would have the effect of depreciating the value of property. What he wanted to say, however, was that opinion in Birkenhead was so divided that he thought the Bill ought certainly not to be rejected upon imperfect information. While he objected to the total rejection of the Bill, he objected also to the proposed instruction to the Committee with reference to this particular omnibus clause. He thought the whole matter ought to be considered in the usual way by a Committee upstairs, and that the House would make a great mistake if they accepted either the Motion for the rejection or the proposed instruction.

    *

    inquired whether, in the event of his withdrawing his Motion for the rejection of the Bill, he could move his instruction.

    *

    *

    said in that case he would wish to withdraw his Motion for the rejection of the Bill and move his instruction.

    *

    doubted very much whether the House ought to permit the withdrawal of the Amendment, which it was obvious would not succeed, in order to allow the hon. Member to take another course. The Amendment was deliberately intended to stop the Bill, and a beat up had been made to obtain Members to support it, but now when it was obvious that it could not succeed the hon. Member wished to withdraw it and move an instruction. It was clear, however, as the Secretary to the Board of Trade had said, that a discussion in the House, upon a question, of this kind must be a very perfunctory one. Moreover, hon. Members who had been dining and had not heard the debate would, without a sufficient knowledge of the question, be called upon to decide it. The practice was to send Bills of this kind to Committees upstairs, and he thought such proceedings as had been taken in regard to this Bill should not be encouraged. He protested against the attempt which had been, made to prevent this Bill going to a Committee.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Main Question put, and agreed to; Bill read a second time, and committed.

    *

    said lie now desired to move the instruction that stood in his name. All the arguments that had been used in the previous discussion were practically the same as he would use in moving this Resolution, and under those circumstances he would not detain the House but formally move the instruction.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to leave out Clause 5 of the Bill." —( Mr. Vivian.)

    said the contentions which had been suggested in regard to this particular clause were not such as ought, in his opinion, to weigh with the House. It was said that this monopoly interfered with that which the corporation possessed. That was to say that one species of monopoly was to be urged as against the setting up of another species of monopoly. The hon. Member had attacked the monopoly of the railway on the ground that the monopoly of the corporation should be maintained. He (Mr. Cross) did not address himself to the consideration of this Bill from the point of view of any monopoly whatever. The question to his mind was how this was going to serve the public in the matter of the transport of passengers. He did not think the case of a monopoly could be made out. If the contention of hon. Gentlemen opposite was that this railway came to Parliament for powers to start a service of motor buses to compete with the cars in the city they were mistaken.

    *

    said that as a matter of fact these buses had been running in the heart of the city.

    said that hon. Members opposite seemed to regard Birkenhead as a busy and populous place, but he did not regard it as such a busy place as to make this a serious matter. He regarded Birkenhead as simply a suburb of Liverpool.

    said there were two questions which he wished to ask the House to consider. This was a matter of competition to serve the public. It was a competition between the railway and the tramway. He understood that the ferry to Birkenhead belonged to the Corporation of Liverpool and there they kept up a very good service of tramways. He understood that they did not own the ferry at Seacombe, and because they did not own it they gave no such efficient service of tramways. Then the railway came along and tunnelled below the river and, having got to the other side, asked for those facilities which a corporation ought to give both to railways and to steamers. Every attempt was made to prevent the giving of those, facilities. Then came the invention of motor buses, and they asked leave to put on a service of those buses through the tunnel. This was not allowed. Something was said about the noise they made, but the real reason why the facility was not given was that these buses would enter into competition with the tramways owned by the corporation. But the corporation having entered into a trading competition must, he submitted, take the consequences of the competition. Notwithstanding the fact that tramways trenched upon the monopolies of railways, the House had sanctioned the construction of tramways and would continue to do so. This new system of motor buses had come along, which was far better than the system of tramways. Tramways were costly to construct, and when they were constructed the trams could only go in certain directions, whereas motor buses were cheaper to construct, could move in and out the traffic, and could be taken off one route if it was found not to pay and put upon another. To say that because this system was going to trench upon another monopoly it should not be established was absurd. He asked the House to look at this Bill from the point of view of the interest not of the corporation, but of the public. The history of the Committees of Parliament had always led one to the conclusion that it was the public interest that was regarded. If a man wanted an impartial and careful tribunal that tribunal was to be found in a Committee of the other place. He said that without fear of contradiction. Next to that he put the Committees of this House. Though we might alter the system we should never get more impartial tribunals. This Bill had to fight its battle there, and the battle it would have to fight was not whether it was going to trespass or touch another monopoly, but whether it was going to serve the public. The Bill was to open up a new route and to deposit men at their own doors, and the opposition to it was an attempt to stop the progress and prevent the development of science to which the public were entitled. He hoped, on the ground that this was really a defence of a monopoly, a thing which this House always resented, and upon the ground that this House, was not a tribunal which could decide the merits of the case, the instruction would be rejected, and the Bill allowed to go complete to the Committee upstairs.

    said he was sure that this was a matter for the House and not for a Committee to decide. There were many cases which were matters for instruction, but this was not a matter of that kind, because it was a matter of principle which would apply to many other cases. Therefore it was a matter which this House could and ought to settle. The case as to mutilation put forward by the hon. Gentleman was mere nonsense. Then it was said that the question ought not to be decided by a few Members while other Members were dining, but that was exactly the way the business of the House was done. All its business was done while some were dining and smoking and others were talking. If every one came and talked in the House, no business at all would be done. It was the providential way in which some Members stayed away that enabled business to be transacted. These matters had been before Parliament before. The feeling of the House was expressed in the North Eastern Cables Bill which came back from a Committee without that having been done which the House thought ought to have been done. This Bill had been before another assembly, but the fact that they had let it go through made the House of Commons still more afraid. There were two places where it had gone through, and therefore this House should make a stand. To say that a Committee should settle this great principle was not a proper thing. They were right to raise the question of principle, and this was the place in which to raise it. His hon. friend had made out that it was a case of free competition. If they were going to adopt that principle they should adopt it all round; but did railway companies submit themselves to free competition? This House might say they were in favour of free competition for everybody, and it might be fair and logical, but that was not the policy on which they acted. They were constantly giving monopolies, and they were bound in honour to guard this policy if it fulfilled the conditions unless they took up another policy. If they had it in the tramways let them have it in the railways as well. Parliament had encouraged the municipalities to spend money on this enterprise. Could they now open the floodgates of free competition whilst it guarded the railway companies? If they were going to break down the safeguard of Parliament, and, after encouraging these communities to spend the money of the ratepayers in giving facilities for communication, expose them to the open competition of a rich body of monopolists whose monopoly would be guarded, the House would put itself in a very ridiculous position. The House ought to say quite distinctly that whilst it did not interfere with the ordinary freedom of a Committee, this was a point of principle on which it was not only justified but compelled to give an instruction as to the line that ought to be taken.

    said the speech of his hon. friend who had just sat down illustrated the inconvenience of dealing with a question like this in the House itself. The most contradictory statements had been made on both sides without the slightest opportunity for Members to investigate the truth. It would be a monstrous thing to reject the Bill, four-fifths of which was unopposed, because of this one clause. The hon. Member for Bolton had talked about destroying a monopoly which the House of Commons had created. His hon. friend could not be aware of the facts of the case. There was no proposal to enter into competition with the tramways ["Yes" and "No."] Those interruptions showed the futility of the House trying to decide a question of this sort. Hon. Members were being asked to act judiciously without the slightest knowledge of the facts. They ought not on ex parte statements to reject a Bill which might be of the utmost importance to the public at large. This Bill had been before the House of Lords, and a Committee of the House of Lords had unanimously recommended that the clause in question should be passed. If this House began without evidence to reject clauses which had been passed by the other House there was a process of retaliation which might be employed by the House of Lords in regard to Bills passed by this House. Although he admitted that his statement, like that of others, was an ex parte statement he would give his version of this case. As he understood, this was an attempt by the Corporation of Birkenhead to thwart the wishes not of a railway company merely, but of Liverpool and district. There was no proposal to give to the Mersey Railway any monopoly of any kind. There was nothing to prevent the Corporation of Birkenhead from carrying tramways along the same route as the motor buses. It was an attempt by the Corporation of Birkenhead to refuse facilities to the people of Liverpool to get out into the country by quicker and more convenient means than by the Corporation's own ferry boats. The Corporation of Birkenhead were acting the policy of the dog in the manger by refusing to lay down tram-lines themselves along the routes which would serve the people. His version might not be correct. His argument, however, was that the only way to get at the truth was to send the Bill to an impartial tribunal like a Select Committee. His hon. friend had said that these buses might go roving to Birkenhead in competition with the tramways of the Corporation. Nothing of the kind. They were restricted as to their routes, and if further safeguards were required the Committee upstairs could insert them so as to protect every interest, and to ensure that the 'buses were only used for the purpose for which they were desired to be brought into existence. He strongly urged upon the House to stand by some fixed procedure, and not to get into the habit of allowing partisans on every side to make statements without there being any opportunity to investigate them; but to send such Bills to an impartial Committee. Even if the Committee reported in favour of the clause, the House would be entitled to reject the recommendation and decide for itself.

    *

    , speaking as the representative of the Wirral District Council, said that that body were strongly opposed to these motor omnibuses.

    said they had heard a good deal about monopolies, but what monopoly was there in this Bill? It merely sought to give the Mersey Railway power to run motor omnibuses, and that was not a monopoly. The measure did not prevent Birkenhead seeking to get similar powers in the same district. They were merely asked to give this railway company the right to run motor 'buses wherever they were suitable and to extend the Mersey railway, which had been one of the greatest boons to Birkenhead and Liverpool. Perhaps the House was not aware of it, but it was a fact that neither the shareholders nor the debenture holders in this railway had had any return for the money which had been spent and which had given great advantages to the two cities of Birkenhead and Liverpool. At present there was no possible means of any person going from Liverpool into Cheshire except by the ferries and the tramways of the Birkenhead Corporation. Now the Mersey Railway desired to tap that district by going underneath and giving facilities for the people of Liverpool to go under the river. They desired to increase these facilities by taking their motor omnibuses through Birkenhead and out into the pretty country surrounding it. The Corporation of Birkenhead were dictating to the people of Liverpool and were saying, "We will not allow you to have those facilities, and we will stop you on the way, and we will ask for the monopoly ourselves in order to keep in our hands entirely this means of communication." He resided in the Birkenhead district himself, and as an inhabitant he should be sorry to see the motor buses coming into his locality, but as an unselfish man, and as one who thought that other people should have access to the beauties of nature as well as himself, he objected to barriers being placed in the way of free access from one place to another, whether by municipalities or anyone else. He could not understand the action of the hon. Member who had moved this Instruction, for lie was a gentleman who talked about the liberty of the subject, and now he was standing in the way of the enjoyment of the people of Liverpool and supporting the monopoly which the Corporation of Birkenhead was trying to set up. He trusted the ordinary rule would be followed and that this Bill would be sent to a Committee where all sides could be heard in order that justice might be done.

    *

    said that this Bill involved a point which would certainly be raised in other localities in connection with similar undertakings. The clause referred to conveying passengers and passengers' luggage generally, and there were no words in the clause confining its operation to passengers and passengers' luggage in connection with transit on this railway. There was all the difference in the world between giving companies further facilities with reference to their own traffic, and allowing them to enter into the business of carrying passengers and luggage inside the region where some other company or corporation was already engaged in the carrying trade. As no such restrictive words as he had mentioned had been put into this clause he thought the Committee ought to be plainly instructed that these motor-bus facilities should be limited to transit in connection with the railway. Subject to that limitation he should be very sorry to see any impediment put in the way of the Committee considering and deciding upon the facts.

    *

    said he wished to enter his protest against the doctrine laid down by the hon. Member for Perth that they must not consider these Bills on their Second Readings. That

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.Duffy, William J.Lamb, Edmund G.(Leominster
    Abraham, William (Rhondda)Duncan, C (Barrow-in-FurnessLehmann, R. C.
    Acland-Hood, Rt.Hn.SirAlex.FDunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Lever, W.H.(Cheshire,Wirral)
    Alden, PercyEdwards, Enoch (Hanley)Levy, Maurice
    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)Esmonde, Sir ThomasLundon, W.
    Arkwright, John StanhopeFenwick, CharlesLuttrell, Hugh Fownes
    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Ferens, T. R.Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
    Baker, Joseph A.(Finsbury, E.Findlay, AlexanderMacNeill, John Gordon Swift
    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Flavin, Michael JosephMacVeagh,Jeremiah (Down, S.
    Barnard, E. B.Flynn, James ChristopherMacVeigh, Charles(Donegal, E.
    Barnes, G. N.Fullerton, HughM'Callum, John M.
    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)Gilhooly, JamesM'Crae, George
    Bell, RichardGill, A. H.M'Hugh, Patrick A.
    Benn, W. (T'wrHamlets,S.Geo.Ginnell, L.M'Killop, W.
    Bennett, E. N.Glover, ThomasMaddison, Frederick
    Bignold, Sir ArthurGriffith, Ellis J.Manfield, Harry (Northants)
    Billson, AlfredHall, FrederickMassie, J.
    Black, Arthur W. (BedfordshireHalpin, J.Meagher, Michael
    Boland, JohnHammond, JohnMeehan, Patrick A.
    Bolton, T.D. (Derbyshire, N.E.Hardie, J. Keir(MerthyrTydvilMicklem, Nathaniel
    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)Hart-Davies, T.Mond, A.
    Brace, WilliamHarwood, GeorgeMontgomery, H. H.
    Bramsdon, T. A.Haslam, James (Derbyshire)Mooney, J. J.
    Branch, JamesHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
    Brigg, JohnHayden, John PatrickMorse, L. L.
    Brocklehurst, W. D.Hazel, Dr. A. E.Morton, Alpheus Cleophats
    Brunner, J.F.L.(Lanes.,Leigh)Hazelton, RichardMurphy, John
    Buckmaster, Stanley O.Hedges, A. PagetMurray, James
    Burnyeat, J. D. W.Helme, Norval WatsonNapier, T. B.
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasHill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)Nicholls, George
    Byles, William PollardHodge, JohnNicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'r
    Cairns, ThomasHogan, MichaelNolan, Joseph
    Clancy, John JosephHooper, A. G.Nuttall, Harry
    Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Horniman, Emslie JohnO'Brien, Kendal(TipperaryMid
    Clynes, J. R.Houston, Robert PatersonO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
    Collins, SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,WHudson, WalterO'Connor, James(Wicklow,W.)
    Condon, Thomas JosephHyde, ClarendonO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Jenkins, J.O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
    Cox, Harold.Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)
    Crean, EugeneJones,David Brynmor(SwanseaO'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)
    Crosfield, A. H.Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.
    Dalziel, James HenryJones, William (CarnarvonshireO'Malley, William
    Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Jowett, F. W.O'Mara, James
    Devlin,CharlcsRamsay(GawlayJoyce, MichaelO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
    Dillon, JohnKekewich, Sir GeorgeO'Shee, James John
    Dolan, Charles JosephKennedy, Vincent PaulParker, James (Halifax)
    Duckworth, JamesKilbride, DenisPaul, Herbert

    was one of the few rights which were left to Members, in this House. He hoped independent Members would not listen to such special pleading but do what was right to their constituencies and pass, amend, or reject as they thought fit these Bills on their Second Reading.

    Question put.

    The House divided:—Ayes, 199; Noes, 108. (Division List No. 78.)

    Pickersgill, Edward HareShaw, Rt. Hn. T. (Hawick, B.)Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
    Pirie, Duncan V.Sheehan, Daniel DanielWalsh, Stephen
    Pollard, Dr.Shipman, Dr. John G.Walters, John Tudor
    Power, Patrick JosephSilcock, Thomas BallWardle, George J.
    Pr'estley, W. E. B.(Bradford,E.Sloan, Thomas HenryWaterlow, D. S.
    Raphael, Herbert H.Smeaton, Donald MackenzieWeir, James Galloway
    Ratcliff, Major R. F.Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Reddy, M.Snowdon, P.Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)
    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Steadman, W. C.Wiles, Thomas
    Redmond, William (Clare)Stewart, Halley (Greenock)Wilkie, Alexander
    Richards.T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'nStuart, James (Sunderland)Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
    Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Sullivan, DonalWilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
    Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Summerbell, T.Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
    Roberts, S. (Sheffield.Ecclesall)Taylor, John W. (Durham)Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
    Robinson, S.Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Rowlands, J.Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan,E.)Young, Samuel
    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Thomas,David Alfred(Merthyr)
    Salter, Arthur ClavellThomasson, Franklin

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Vivian and Mr. Arthur Henderson.

    Scott,A. H.(Ashton under LyneThompson,J.W.H.(Somerset,E
    Seddon, J.Thorne, William
    Shackleton, David JamesToulmin, George

    NOES.

    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Fletcher, J. S.Rees, J. D.
    Armitage, R.Forster, Henry WilliamRemnant, James Farquharson
    Astbury, John MeirGibb, James (Harrow)Rickett, J. Compton
    Balcarres, LordGlendinning, R. G.Ridsdale, E. A.
    Banner, John S. Harmood-Gulland, John W.Robertson,SirG.Scott (Bradf'rd
    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Gurdon, Sir W. BramptonRogers, F. E. Newman
    Beauchamp, E.Haddock, George R.Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)
    Berridge, T. H. D.Harinsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-shSamuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
    Bertram, JuliusHaworth, Arthur A.Seaverns, J. H.
    Boyle, Sir EdwardHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeSheehy, David
    Bryce, J. A.(Inverness Burghs)Henderson,J.M.(Aberdeen, W.)Soares, Ernest J.
    Bull, Sir William JamesHigham, John SharpStrachey, Sir Edward
    Carlile, E. HildredHill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Strauss, K. A. (Abingdon)
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Hope, W.Bateman(Somerset,NSutherland, J. E.
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Jackson, R. S.Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
    Chance, Frederick WilliamKearley, Hudson E.Thomson,W. Mitchell-(Lanark)
    Cheetham, John FrederickKennaway,Rt.Hn. Sir John H.Tomkinson, James
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Kincaid-Smith, CaptainUre, Alexander
    Cleland, J. W.Laidlaw, RobertVerney, F. W.
    Clough, W.Lambert, GeorgeWalker, Col. W. H.(Lancashire
    Coates, E. Feetham (LewishamLamont, NormanWalrond, Hon. Lionel
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Layland-Barratt, FrancisWalton, Joseph (Barnsley)
    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Lever,A.Levy(Essex, Harwich)Ward, W. Dudley (South'mptn
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Lewis, John HerbertWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Lupton, ArnoldWhite, Luke (York, E.R.)
    Cowan, W. H.Lyell, Charles HenryWhitehead, Rowland
    Craig,Captain James(Down, E.)MacIver, David (Liverpool)Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)
    Crossley William J.M'Micking, Major G.Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
    Davies,David(Montgomery Co.Marks,G.Croydon (Launceston)Williamson, A. (Elgin & Nairn
    Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Marnham, F. J.Wilson, Hn. C. H. W. (Hull, W.
    Doughty, Sir Geo.Menzies, WalterWodehouse,Lord(Norfolk,Mid)
    Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)Molteno, Percy AlportWoodhouse,SirJ.T.(Hudd'rsf'd
    Edwards, Frank (Radnor)Norton, Capt. Cecil William
    Elibank, Master ofO'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Wallace and Mr. Alexander Cross.

    Emmott, AlfredPearce, William (Limehouse)
    Eve, Harry TrelawneyPearson,W.H.M.(Suffolk, Eye)
    Everett, R. LaceyPease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)
    Fell, ArthurPrice,C.E.(Edinburgh,Central)

    Wirral Railway (Extension Of Time) Bill

    Order for Second Reading read.

    *

    asked whether the hon. Member for the Wirral Division of Cheshire intended to oppose the Bill.

    *

    *

    Second Reading deferred till tomorrow.

    Local Authorities (Transfer Of Treasury Powers) Bill

    Considered in Committee.

    (In the Committee.)

    [MR. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

    Clause 1:—

    said he had no desire to add any observations to those he had already made in support of his Amendment to omit Sub-section 3.

    Amendment proposed—

    "In page 1, line 17, to leave out subsection (3)."—(Mr. Watson- Rutherford.)

    Question proposed, "That Sub-section (3) stand part of the clause."

    , interrupting, said he hoped that before the vote was taken a reply would be given on behalf of the Government. He had refrained from repeating his questions and arguments with the object of saving the time of the Committee. He hoped the Financial Secretary of the Treasury would take the opportunity of giving the Committee the explanations to which they were entitled.

    said that he did not consider the hon. Member had meant the Committee to take his argument seriously—[OPPOSITION cries of "Oh, oh !']—but if he had been mistaken, he would endeavour to reply to the argument. The hon. Gentleman's statement was to the effect that if any question arose on this clause, instead of its being taken to an ordinary Court of Law, a new authority, viz., the Treasury, would be called in to decide the point. The hypothesis upon which the hon. Member had based his argument against the clause was altogether illusory, and the result which he had described could not arise. The class of case which would arise would be between a local authority and the Local Government Hoard or the Treasury, and the Treasury would be the deciding authority in the dispute.

    said that the hon. and learned Gentleman had hardly been fair to him in reference to his Amendment, and the observations he was obliged to make upon it. He took objection to the clause seriously, and not from imaginary reasons. He thought that a discussion of a clause in such a Bill which might bear different interpretations would be useful. As a matter of fact, between 300 and 400 Acts of Parliament could be dealt with under this sub-section. He could put a case to the hon. and learned Member which would show that the difficulty to which he referred was not imaginary. Let the Committee suppose a question arose as to a sale of land in Liverpool, the Corporation of Liverpool could not dispose of any of that land without the consent of the Treasury, which consent could only be obtained by presenting a memorial to the Lords of the Treasury. But as he understood this Bill, that consent, instead of being obtained from the Lords of the Treasury would in future be obtained from the Local Government Board. That, he believed, might involve expensive litigation as to whether the Treasury or the Local Government Board had consented to the sale. He thought the Clause most objectionable, and he strongly opposed it.

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)Corbett,CH(Sussex,E.Grinst'dHigham, John Sharp
    Abraham, William (Rhondda)Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hobart, Sir Robert
    Agnew, George WilliamCory, Clifford JohnHodge, John
    Alden, PercyCotton, Sir H. J. S.Hogan, Michael
    Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)Cowan, W. H.Holland, Sir William Henry
    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Crean, EugeneHooper, A. G.
    Armitage, R.Crombie, John WilliamHope,W.Bateman(Somerset,N.
    Astbury, John MeirCrosfield, A. H.Horniman, Emslie John
    Atherley-Jones, L.Crossley, William J.Hudson, Walter
    Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)Dalziel, James HenryHyde, Clarendon
    Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.Davies,David(MontgomeryCo.Illingworth, Percy H.
    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Davies, W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Jackson, R. S.
    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Devlin,Charles Ramsay(Galw'yJenkins, J.
    Barlow, Percy (Bedford)Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)
    Barnard, E. B.Dolan, Charles JosephJones,David Brynmor(Swansea
    Barnes, G. N.Duckworth, JamesJones, Leif (Appleby)
    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)Duffy, William J.Jones, William(Carnarvonshire
    Beale, W. P.Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessJoyce, Michael
    Beauchamp, E.Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley)Kearley, Hudson E.
    Beaumont, W. C. B. (Hexham)Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)Kekewich, Sir George
    Bell, RichardEdwards, Enoch (Hanley)Kennedy, Vincent Paul
    Benn,John Williams(Devonp'rtEdwards, Frank (Radnor)Kilbride, Denis
    Benn,W.(T'w'r Hamlets.S.Geo.Elibank, Master ofKincaid-Smith, Captain
    Bennett, E. N.Esmonde, Sir ThomasLaidlaw, Robert
    Berridge, T. H. D.Eve, Harry TrelawneyLamb, Edmund G. (Leominster
    Bertram, JuliusEverett, R. LaceyLamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)
    Billson, AlfredFenwick, CharlesLambert, George
    Black,ArthurW.(BedfordshireFerens, T. R.Lamont, Norman
    Boland, JohnFindlay, AlexanderLaw, Hugh Alexander
    Balton, T. D. (Derbyshire.N.E.)Flavin, Michael JosephLayland-Barratt, Francis
    Boulton, A. C. F. (Ramsey)Flynn, James ChristopherLehmann, R. C.
    Brace, WilliamFuller, John Michael F.Lever,A.Levy(Essex, Harwich)
    Bramsdon, T. A.Fullerton, HughLever, W. H. (Cheshire,Wirral)
    Brigg, JohnGibb, James (Harrow)Levy, Maurice
    Brocklehurst, W. D.Gilhooly, JamesLewis, John Herbert
    Brooke, StopfordGill, A. H.Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David
    Brunner, J.F.L.(Lancs., Leigh)Ginnell, L.Lundon, W.
    Bryce, J.A. (Inverness Burghs)Gladstone,Rt.Hn.HerbertJohnLupton, Arnold
    Buckmaster, Stanley O.Glendinning, R. G.Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
    Burke, E. Haviland-Glover, ThomasLyell, Charles Henry
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnGriffith, Ellis J.Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)
    Burnyeat, J. D. W.Gulland, John W.MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
    Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasGurdon, Sir W. BramptonMacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.
    Baxton, Rt.Hn.Sydney CharlesHall, FrederickM'Callum, John M.
    Byles, William PollardHalpin, J.M'Crae, George
    Cairns, ThomasHammond, JohnM'Hugh, Patrick A.
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Hardie,J.Keir(Merthyr Tydvil)M'Kenna, Reginald
    Causton,Rt.Hn.RichardKnightHardy, George A. (Suffolk)M'Killop, W.
    Cawley, FrederickHarmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r)M'Micking, Major G.
    Chance, Frederick WilliamHarmsworth,R.L.(Caithn'ss-shMaddison, Frederick
    Channing, Francis AllstonHart-Davies, T.Manfield, Harry (Northants)
    Cheetham, John FrederickHarwood, GeorgeMarks,G. Croydon (Launceston
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R- R.Haslam, James (Derbyshire)Marnham, F. J.
    Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Massie, J.
    Cleland, J. W.Haworth, Arthur A.Meagher, Michael
    Clough, W.Hazel, Dr. A. E.Meehan, Patrick A.
    Clynes, J. R.Hazleton, RichardMenzies, Walter
    Cobbold, Felix ThornleyHedges, A. PagetMicklem, Nathaniel
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Helme, Norval WatsonMolteno, Percy Alport
    Collins,SirWm.J.(S.Pancras,WHenderson, Arthur (Durham)Mond, A.
    Condon, Thomas JosephHenderson,J.M.(Aberdeen,W.)Montagu, E. S.

    Question put.

    Committee divided:—Ayes, 303; Noes, 17. (Division List, No. 79.)

    Montgomery, H. H.Rees, J. D.Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, B.
    Mooney, J. J.Richards.T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'nThomas.David Alfred(Merthyr
    Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)Rickett, J. ComptonThompson, J. W. H.(Somerset
    Morse, L. L.Ridsdale, E. A.Thorne, William
    Morton, Alpheua CleophasRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Tomkinson, James
    Murphy, JohnRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)Toulmin, George
    Murray, JamesRoberts, John H. (Denbighs.)Ure, Alexander
    Napier, T. B.Robertson, Rt. Hn. E.(Dundee)Verney, F. W.
    Nicholls, GeorgeRobertson,Sir G.Scott(Bradf'rdVivian, Henry
    Nicholson,CharlesN.(Doncast'rRobinson, S.Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
    Nolan, JosephRogers, F. E. NewmanWallace, Robert
    Norton, Capt. Cecil WilliamRose, Charles DayWalsh, Stephen
    Nuttall, HarryRowlands, J.Walters, John Tudor
    O'Brien,Kendal(TipperaryMidRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)
    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)Wardle, George J.
    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)Wason, John Cathcart(Orkney)
    O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Scott, A.H.(Ashton under LyneWaterlow, D. S.
    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)Seaverns, J. H.Weir, James Galloway
    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)Seddon, J.White, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)Shackleton, David JamesWhite, Luke (York, E.R.)
    O'Kelly,James(Roscommon,N.Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B.)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    O'Mara, JamesSheehan, Daniel DanielWhitehead, Rowland
    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Sheehy, DavidWhitley, J. H. (Halifax)
    O'Shee, James JohnShipman, Dr. John G.Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
    Parker, James (Halifax)Silcock, Thomas BallWiles, Thomas
    Paul, HerbertSmeaton, Donald MackenzieWilkie, Alexander
    Pearce, William (Limehouse)Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
    Pearson, Sir W. D. (Colchester)Snowdon, P.Williamson, A. (Elgin & Nairn)
    Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk,EyeSoares, Ernest J.Wilson, Hon. C. H. W. (Hull,W
    Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke)Stanger, H. Y.Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
    Pickersgill, Edward HareSteadman, W. C.Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
    Pirie, Duncan V.Stewart, Halley (Greenock)Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough)
    Pollard, Dr.Strachey, Sir EdwardWilson, P. W. (St Pancras, S.)
    Power, Patrick JosephStrauss, E. A. (Abingdon)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Price,C. E.(Edinburgh,Central)Stuart, James (Sunderland)Woodhouse,Sir J.T.(Hudd'rsfid
    Priestley, W.E.B.(Bradford,E.)Sullivan, DonalYoung, Samuel
    Radford, G. H.Summerbell, T.
    Rainy, A. HollandSutherland, J. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease.

    Raphael, Herbert H.Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
    Reddy, M.Taylor, John W. (Durham)
    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
    Redmond, William (Clare)Tennant, E. P. (Salisbury)

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood,RtHn.SirAlex.F.Doughty, Sir GeorgeMeysey-Thompson, E. C.
    Arkwright, John StanhopeFell, ArthurMorpeth, Viscount
    Balcarres, LordFinch, Rt. Hon. George N.Muntz, Sir Philip A.
    Baring, Hon. Guy (Winchester)Fletcher, J. S.O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
    Bignold, Sir ArthurForster, Henry WilliamRemnant, James Farquharson
    Boyle, Sir EdwardHaddock, George R.Salter, Arthur Clavell
    Brotherton, Edward AllenHamilton, Marquess ofSloan, Thomas Henry
    Carlilc, E. HildredHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeStanley, Hon.Arthur(Ormskirk
    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)Helmsley, ViscountStarkey, John R.
    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury)Thomson, W.Mitchell-(Lanurk)
    Coates, E. Feetham (LewishamHill, Henry Staveley (Staff'sh.)Valentia, Viscount
    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Houston, Robert PatersonWalker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Kennaway,Rt.Hn.Sir John H.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
    Craig, Charles Curtis(Antrim,S.Lane-Fox, G. R.
    Craig,Captain James(Down,E.)Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Bull and Mr. Watson Rutherford.

    Cross, AlexanderMacIver, David (Liverpool)
    Dalrymple, ViscountMacVeigh,Charles(Donegal, E.)

    Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time and passed.

    Alkali, Etc, Works (Stamp Duty)

    Considered in Committee.

    (In the Committee.)

    Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the imposition of a Stamp Duty of Five pounds on Certificates of Registration in the case of Alkali Works and of Three pounds in the case of any other Work in pursuance of any Act of the present session to consolidate and

    amend the Alkali, &c, Works Regulation Acts, 1881 and 1892, and the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament, of salaries and remuneration and of expenses incurred in the execution of such Act.—( Mr. John Burns.)

    Resolution to be reported to-morrow.

    Alkali, Etc, Works Bill

    Considered in Committee.

    (In the Committee.)

    [Mr. EMMOTT (Oldham) in the Chair.]

    Clause 1 agreed to.

    Clause 2:—

    Amendments proposed—

    "In page 1, line 22, after the word 'discharge,' to insert the words 'whether directly or indirectly.'"
    "In page 1, line 23, and page 2, line 1, to leave out the words 'whether directly or by a chimney or other outlet.'"
    "In page 2, line 6, after the word 'other,' to insert the word 'final.'"—(Mr. John Burns.)

    Amendments agreed to.

    Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

    Clauses 3, 4, 5 and 6 agreed to.

    Clause 7:—

    Amendments proposed—

    "In page 4, line 14, after the word 'discharge,' to insert the words 'whether directly or indirectly.'"
    "In page 4, lines 15 and 16, to leave out the words 'whether directly or by a chimney or other outlet.'"
    "In page 4, line 21, after the word 'other,' to insert the word 'final.'"
    "In page 4, line 26, after the word 'other' to insert the word 'final.'"—(Mr. John Burns.)

    Amendments agreed to.

    Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

    Clause 8:—

    Amendments proposed—

    "In page 4, line 41, after the word 'works,' to insert the words 'or in any works in which sulphide ores, including regulus, are calcined or smelted (hereinafter called "smelting works").'"

    "In page 5, line 9, after the word 'cement works,' to insert the words 'or smelting works.'"—(Mr. Arthur Stanley.)

    Amendments agreed to.

    Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

    Clauses 9 and 10 postponed.

    Clauses 11 to 31 agreed to.

    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

    Justices Of The Peace (No 2) Bill

    Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [7th May], "That the Bill be now read the third time."

    Question again proposed.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Bill read the third time, and passed.

    Adjournment

    Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn"—( Mr. Whiteley)— put, and agreed to.

    Adjourned accordingly at twenty-seven minutes after Ten o'clock.