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Commons Chamber

Volume 181: debated on Wednesday 21 August 1907

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House Of Commons

Wednesday, 21st August, 1907.

The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

Questions And Answers Circulated With The Votes

Notice Of Meetings Of Land Tax Commissioners

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the fact that, although The Land Tax Commissioners Act, 1906, expressly states that the Treasury shall cause notice to be given to each Commissioner of all meetings of the Commissioners of the county, etc., the clerk to the Land Tax Commissioners in the Ross Division of Herefordshire has repeatedly failed to notify many of the Commissioners of meetings which have been held since that Act came into operation; and whether he will take such steps as will ensure obedience to the provisions of the Act.

I have made inquiries on this subject, and I am informed that only two meetings of the Land Tax Commissioners referred to have been held this year, and that notice was given of each meeting to each Commissioner, resident in the district, in accordance with the instructions issued by the Board of Inland Revenue under the Act of last session.

Promotion In The Post Office—Cases Of Messrs J Y Bell And R M Stewart

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will state the respective numbers of deputy staff officers, first-class clerks, second-class clerks, and third-class clerks in the supplementary establishment of the Secretary's Office who have longer service in the Post Office than Messrs. J. Y. Bell and R. M. Stewart, respectively, who were recently promoted to first-class clerkships of the Higher Division in the Secretary's Office.

To ask the Postmaster-General whether the two vacancies as second-class clerks of the Higher Division recently created in the Secretary's Office by the promotion of Messrs. Bell and Stewart will be filled by the promotion of experienced and efficient officers of the supplementary establishment, many of whom have from twenty to thirty years service in the Post Office; and, if not, will he explain how the filling of these vacancies by officially inexperienced young men from a Higher Division, Class I., examination is in the interests of the public service.

To ask the Postmaster-General whether, seeing that Messrs. J. Y. Bell and R. M. Stewart were recently promoted to first-class clerkships of the Higher Division in the Secretary's Office, with increase of salary from£255 to £550 and from £225 to £550, respectively, that these two officers entered the Post Office service so lately as November, 1899, and December, 1901, respectively, that many officers amongst the third-class clerks, second-class clerks, first-class clerks, and deputy staff officers of the supplementary establishment have three, four, and five times the service of either of these two recently-promoted officers, he will explain why the more experienced and more efficient officials of the supplementary establishment did not get these two promotions.

I will answer the hon. Member's three Questions together. I consider that it is in the interest of the public service to recruit the higher grades in the Secretary's Office as a rule by the open Class I. competition, which attracts much of the best material from the Universities and secures a high standard of ability and education in the successful candidates. Promotions are occasionally made from the supplementary establishment to the Second Class of the Higher Grade, if candidates with very exceptional qualifications are available, but the comparisons of length of service which the hon. Member suggests have no direct bearing upon the matter.

Sale Of Lord Kilmorey's Estate

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have yet fixed the price or percentage, under Section 23 (11) of the Land Act of 1903, for negotiating the sale of Lord Kilmorey's estate, county Down, and, if not, can they say when it is likely to be fixed and the sale completed; whether they are aware that assistance in the work of the sale and the furnishing of all the particulars of the estate was given by the clerk of the Kilmorey estate office; and will they, before the payment of the negotiating fees, arrange that this clerk shall receive proper remuneration for his work, in which his experience and knowledge of the estate were particularly useful.

The Estates Commissioners inform me that the sale of the estate referred to will not be completed for some time, and consequently they are not at present in a position to consider the payment of a negotiation fee under Section 23 of the Act of 1903. The Commissioners are not aware that the clerk in the estate office took part in negotiating the sale, and they cannot therefore express any opinion in the matter at present.

Treatment By Police Of Jeremiah Cotter, Of Ballingeary

To ask the Chief Secretary to the LordLieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that in the case of Jeremiah Cotter, of Ballingeary, recently heard at the Cork assizes, this young man was arrested whilst his life was certified to be in danger by the medical officer for the district, Dr. Goold; that his father's house was broken into by the police under District Inspector Dale; that he was subjected to cruel ill-treatment, together with his father, an old man of eighty years, by being forced to walk to Inchigeelagh, a distance of five miles, and to travel from thence to Dunmanway, a distance of twelve miles, in an open car; and will he state whether any redress will be given to Jeremiah Cotter in these circumstances.

Jeremiah Cotter was arrested by the police on 5th April upon a warrant for the offence of unlawful assembly in September last, since when he had been evading arrest. When Cotter was being arrested an attack was made upon the police, one of whom was seriously injured. Cotter escaped from custody, having also sustained severe injury. He was re-arrested in his father's house on the following morning and conveyed to Dunmanway, together with his father, against whom a charge of assault was preferred. When the men had been taken four miles on the journey, a telegram, purporting to come from Dr. Goold, was produced stating that Jeremiah Cotter was unfit to be removed. He appeared, however, to be quite fit to travel, and was therefore taken on to Dunmanway by the police. It has not been alleged that he suffered any evil consequences from the journey. He was subsequently convicted of the offence of unlawful assembly, but he and his father were acquitted upon the charge of assaulting the police. I am not aware of any grounds for giving him redress.

Ballingeary Riots

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that Sergeant M'Elligott, of Ballingeary, stated in his sworn evidence both at Limerick and Cork Assizes that certain specified persons were present at and took part in what are known as the Ballingeary riots; is he aware that these persons, to the number of three or four, produced evidence to prove that they were not present at all on the occasions referred to and were acquitted by the jury, and that a special rider to their verdict was added by the jury to the effect that not one of these accused men were present at all; and, seeing that Sergeant M'Elligott was guilty of bearing false witness against these men, will he be indicted for perjury or dismissed, as Sergeant Sheridan was.

I am informed that some of the defendants in the Ballingeary riot case were tried at Limerick winter assizes, and others, who had evaded arrest, were tried at Cork summer assizes. The chief witness against the accused was Sergeant M'Elligott, upon whose evidence thirteen persons in all were convicted or pleaded guilty. Several other defendants were acquitted, not upon the ground that they were not present on the occasion, but simply because it was not shown that they had committed any overt act in connection with the unlawful assembly. The Judge referred to the honesty and impartiality of the police witnesses, and the police authorities have no knowledge of the rider which the jury is stated to have added to their verdict. Upon these facts there appears to be no foundation for the suggestion that Sergeant M'Elligott gave untruthful evidence.

Wexford Rural Cottages

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the rent ordinarily charged for labourers cottages in the Wexford rural district are ninepence or tenpence per week, and that when the occupiers of these cottages are unable to obtain employment in their own neighbourhood and have to go elsewhere in search of it, these rents are increased to one shilling and tenpence per week; will he say whether this increase has at any time obtained the sanction of the Local Government Board; is there anything in the Labourers Acts which entitles district councils to vary the rents charged to labourers in this manner; have two tenants named Nicholas Prendergast and James Ronan been recently evicted by the Wexford Rural District Council because they have declined to pay this rackrent; and, seeing the hardship that is inflicted on the occupiers in circumstances such as these stated, will he use his influence with the Local Government Board to prevent increases of rent on labourers who are forced by local exigencies to temporarily seek employment outside their own district.

The Wexford Rural District Council have provided aarge number of labourers cottages, the rents of which are ordinarily only ninepence or tenpence a week. Some of the tenants have made a practice during the busy season of leaving their families in the cottages and going outside the district to obt in more remunerative employment, thus leaving the farmers without labourers and defeating the object for which labourers cottages are provided. In order to counteract this practice the council have made it a usual condition of letting that any tenant who so absents himself should pay the full rent of the cottage, as based on actual expenditure, and not merely the reduced rent charged to a labourer who gives the district the benefit of his labour. The Local Government Board do not consider this to be an unreasonable condition, but in any case they have no power to interfere with the council's discretion in the matter. The two persons named in the Question were tenants who, having gone elsewhere, had refused to pay the full rent charged by the council. The council, however, directed that they should be reinstated on paying the amount due.

Exports

To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state what is the total value of coal, pig iron, and all other commodities exported during the last financial year.

The total value of the exports (including re-exports) from the United Kingdom during the financial year ended 31st March last amounted to £474,958,962, of which £6,716,905 consisted of pig iron and £31,389,538 of coal.

Scudamore Charity

To ask the hon. Member for the Elland Division, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether he is aware that, owing to the persistency of several residents in the Holme Lacey district regarding the disbursement of the Scudamore charity, six tenant farmers are under notice to leave their farms through the action they are alleged to have taken; whether he is aware that the landlord of these tenants is the trustee who has since agreed to a new scheme being drawn up for the future administration of this charity; and whether he can in any way protect these tenants from a landlord whose administration of a charity has been the subject of a public injury.

The Commissioners have no power to make inquiries as to the relations between landlords and their tenants or to take any action on any information which may be given to them.

Holme Lacey Charities

To ask the hon. Member for the Elland Division, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether he will explain why the Assistant Commissioner, who held the inquiry into the Holme Lacey charities, did not make any inquiries from the clerk to the parish council as clerk to the trustees, but made his investigations in the company of the steward of the trustee whose disbursement of the charity was the subject of the inquiry.

The Assistant Commissioner who held the inquiry into the Holme Lacey charities made his investigations at Holme Lacey prior to the public inquiry, not merely through the agent of the Holme Lacey estate but also through the chairman of the present parish council and the chairman of the administering trustees of the parochial charities.

To ask the hon. Member for the Elland Division. as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether he is aware that the Holme Lacey Parish Council, who will have the administration of the Holme Lacey charities unless otherwise determined, is composed of a majority of the recent trustees' servants, viz., head steward, head gardener, and head mason; whether he will bear this fact in mind in drawing up the new scheme; whether this new scheme will include the Prynce's charity; whether any account has been rendered for the wood that has been felled upon these charity lands since 1837; if so, can he state the amount felled and the amount of money received for the same, and has this amount been disbursed; and, if so, in what way.

The Commissioners have no knowledge of the position of the members who compose the parish council of Holme Lacey. They are bound to regard the council as representative of the parochial electors. It is proposed to deal with the non-parochial charities of the Honourable Jane Scudamore and the parochial charities of the Honourable Mary Prynce and Sir John Scudamore by separate schemes. From an account book of the administering trustees produced to the Assistant Commissioner, it appears that since 1895 the total sum received for fellage of timber on the land belonging to the Honourable Mary Prynce's charity amounts to £70 1s. 4d., which, with other moneys, has been expended upon repairs to buildings and other improvements to the charity estate.

Woolwich Arsenal Pensions

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether Thomas White, who was discharged from Woolwich Arsenal with a pension on 4th April, 1903, after over forty-five years service, is entitled to a medal; and, if so, when he will receive it.

This man was not recommended for a medal, and therefore is not entitled to it.

Fair Wages Resolution

To ask the Secretary of State for War what steps have been taken by his department to give effect to the Resolution concerning the conditions of labour under his department agreed to by the House on 8th March, 1906.

If my hon. friend will look again at the Votes and Proceedings of that date he will see that the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Leicester, to which he is evidently alluding, on the Question that the Speaker leave the Chair, was not agreed to by the House.

Imperial Yeomanry

To ask the Secretary of State for War what will be the exact pay and allowances of the men in the Imperial Yeomanry who accept service under the new Territorial Army scheme.

In cases coming under the new conditions, non-commissioned officers and men will draw daily during the annual training cavalry rates of pay: 1s. camp allowance, and 6d. ration allowance; and, if present at training and certified to be efficient in equitation, they will receive equitation bounty of £1. Married non-commissioned officers will also be granted separation allowance.

Netley Hospital Discharges

To ask the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that soldiers injured in the public service have lately been discharged from Netley Hospital as incurable and without reasonable provision for their support; and if, in view of the obligations imposed upon all employers in the United Kingdom to make provision for their work-people injured in the course of their employment, he will take steps to remedy this system of treatment of soldiers crippled in the national service depending for their maintenance upon private charity.

The general subject to which this Question refers was thoroughly discussed by the House last November, and I must ask the hon. Member, who was not at that time a Member of the House, to refer to the debate of 8th November, in which he will find ample information in regard to the points he now raises.

Sir Thomas Finlay Estate, Bawnboy

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that some seventy tenants on the Sir Thomas Finlay estate, in Chancery, near Bawnboy, who bought their holdings under the Ashbourne Act at sixteen and eighteen years purchase, have had to be sued subsequently for their annuities; is he aware that it is now proposed to sell the balance of the agricultural portion of this estate at twenty-three years purchase, and the village of Bawnboy portion of the estate at thirty years purchase; and will he, in view of the fall in price of farm products owing to increasing foreign competition and the increased cost of labour, have the terms of this sale reviewed so as to prevent the fixing of annuities on a basis that could not be met.

I am informed that out of seventy-seven tenant purchasers on the estate referred to only six have had to be sued for the recovery of their instalments. As regards the portion of the estate which has not yet been sold, the Estates Commissioners inform me that no proceedings for sale have yet been instituted before them, and they have no knowledge of any negotiations for sale which may in progress.

Danish Trade—Copenhagen Port

To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been drawn to the Foreign Office Report on the trade of Denmark in 1906 and the opinion there expressed, on page 17, of how the establishment of the free port of Copenhagen twelve years ago has made it the central emporium of the Baltic trade and led to the founding of many new steamship lines; whether he can state the names of all the free ports on the Continent of Europe; and whether the information concerning their working has been collected in any one volume to which the public has access.

A Return giving the names of all the free ports on the Continent of Europe and certain particulars with regard to each port, based upon Reports obtained through the Foreign Office from His Majesty's Consuls, was ordered by the House of Commons and issued in the session of 1904 (Continental Free Ports, No. 344, of session 1904).

Naval Prisons

To ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty in what localities outside the United Kingdom naval prisons are situated; and what were the total establishment, victualling charges, and the maximum and minimum number of prisoners for each prison in 1906-7, so far as the information is readily available, and with special regard to information about the prison at the Cape of Good Hope.

The naval prisons outside the United Kingdom are situated at Hong Kong, Cape of Good Hope (Simon's Bay), and Sydney. The total establishment (of governor and warders) at each is eight, five, and eight, respectively. The victualling charges for the prisoners for 1906-7 were £90, £62, and £102, respectively. £157 is allowed at Sydney in lieu of provisions for the prison staff. At the two other prisons the prison staff is made up of naval ratings. The maximum and minimum number of prisoners in 1906-7 was:—

Hong Kong20 to 5
Cape of Good Hope13 to 0
(for 14 days.)
Sydney20 to 2

Naval Reserve

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what reserve of naval officers, seamen, and marines is available in the United Kingdom after commissioning for war all the vessels of the Home Fleet not including those attached to the vessels of the different fleets under repair or the Royal Naval Reserve.

It would not be in the interests of the public service to give this information.

Cardiff Postmastership

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can state why the vacancy for the postmastership of Cardiff, caused by the superannuation of the postmaster, was not advertised in the Weekly Circular, and that on 13th August, 1907, notification was given in the Post Office Circular that Mr. T. T. Fairgray, postmaster of Exeter with a salary of £625, had been promoted to Cardiff, salary £750, not giving every officer an equal chance of making application, and why Mr. Fairgray was appointed to the postmasterhip of Shrewsbury, 28th January, 1902, salary £550, and postmaster of Exeter 10th November, 1903, salary £625, although no notification was given in the Official Circular of the vacancy at Exeter; and whether Shrewsbury and Exeter are the headquarters of the Post Office district surveyors.

The vacancy in the postmastership of Cardiff occurred just after other postmasterships with similar salary had been advertised, and as the names of all possible candidates had already been collected there was no necessity or advantage in advertising the vacancy at Cardiff. Mr. Fairgray was appointed to the postmasterships named by the hon. Member because on each occasion he was considered to be the most suitable officer for the position. Shrewsbury and Exeter are the headquarters of district surveyors, but the hon. Member is mistaken if he thinks that appointments to postmasterships are made by the district surveyors.

Excise Revenue Frauds In Scotland

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that an Excise official named Mr. A. R. H Haslam reported another Excise official named Mr. William Stead to his collector and supervisor for allowing participating in, and inciting to frauds on the Revenue and on property owners at a certain distillery or warehouse in Scotland; that, in consequence of the inaction of the collector and supervisor, Mr Haslam reported the matter direct to till Board of Inland Revenue; and that Mr. Stead was summarily dismissed from the Excise service, after an inquiry was held by two inspectors; will he say why Mr. Haslam, as prosecutor, was not allowed to hear or see the evidence given before these two inspectors by the collector, supervisor, and other officials and employees; whether, seeing that Mr. Haslam was commended by the Board for having brought the irregularities under their notice, he will explain why the Board did not inflict any punishment on the collector and supervisor; and why Mr. Stead has not been prosecuted for fraud and smuggling by the Board of Inland Revenue as a result of its inquiry.

The Board of Inland Revenue inform me that there is no ground for imputing inaction to the collector or supervisor in the case referred to. Mr. Stead lost his position and his right to pension after long service as a result of the complaint made against him, and in the opinion of the Board he was thereby adequately punished for his offence.

Glengassaugh Distillery Excise Officer

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that Mr. Haslam, late first-class excise officer at Glengassaugh Distillery, has been superseded for alleged insubordination, that Mr. Haslam incurred the displeasure some time previously of his collector and supervisor and the investigating inspector and practical advisers of the Board of Inland Revenue at Somerset House by reporting charges of fraud which were pre alent at distilleries and warehouses, that the gravity of these charges was minimised by these officials on the ground that a full inquiry and exposure would lead to serious consequences, that Mr. Haslam's only act of alleged insubordination consisted in not obeying his superior officer in the carrying out of instructions regarding an excess charge which were contrary to the Statute Law and the Inland Revenue Regulations, he will explain whether Excise officials are held blameworthy if they obey a superior in the commission of an illegal act; if so, will he say why Mr. Haslam has been punished for refusing to carry out what he considered an illegal order on the part of his superior; and will he now move the Board of Inland Revenue and the Treasury to give further consideration to this matter.

I have nothing to add to the numerous replies given by my predecessor on this subject last session.

Alleged Malpractices In The Customs And Revenue Services

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that officers of Inland Revenue stationed at distilleries, managers and clerks at distilleries and distillers' duty free warehouses, Customs and Excise officers and employees at duty free (bonded) warehouses, and men employed in the working of warehouses in which wines and spirits are stored free of duty pending removal, are in the habit of obtaining wines and spirits gratis, and free of duty, for removal to their homes, that this is especially the case at distillers' warehouses in Scotland, that this custom involves losses to property owners and to the Revenue, that Excise and Customs officers in high places are chiefly responsible for this state of affairs, and that this custom has an injurious effect on the health and probity of these Customs and Excise officers, he will cause the Board of Inland Revenue to issue such stringent regulations on this subject as will effectually safeguard the Revenue and property owners from such losses.

I am not aware of any foundation for this serious charge against the members of the Customs and Excise services. If the hon. Member is able to produce evidence in support of his allegation, I will cause each case to be investigated.

Income-Tax On Underwriting Commissions

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer why instructions have been given to surveyors of income-tax to enforce for the first time the collection of income-tax on underwriting commissions on shares, and treat such com- missions as profit at a time when every transaction is showing a loss to the underwriters in the capital value of any shares allotted.

No general instructions of the character referred to have been given to surveyors of taxes, nor have the Board of Inland Revenue been able to trace any particular case of the kind referred to in the Question; but if the hon. Member will give me details of such a case, I will have inquiry made into the matter.

Deaths From Plague In India

To ask the Secretary of State for India what was the number of deaths from the plague for each of the Presidencies of India, and for each month for the years 1904, 1905, and 1906, and end of June, 1907.

A comprehensive Return of Plague Deaths in each month in each Province of British India and in Native States, from October, 1896, to April, 1907, was recently published by the Government of India. It will probably be found by the hon. Member to meet his requirements. I will send him a copy, with figures added for May and June, 1907.

Cost Of Military Prisons Outside United Kingdom And India

To ask the Secretary of State for War in what localities, outside the United Kingdom and India, military prisons are situated; and what were the total establishment, victualling charges, and the maximum and minimum number of prisoners for each prison in 1906-7, so far as the information is readily available.

The information as regards detention barracks, as the military prisons outside the United Kingdom are now called, is as follows:—

Establish-ment.Soldiers under sentence dur-ing the year 1906.Victualling charges (approximately).
Maximum number.Minimum number.
Detention barracks:£
Bermuda4181137
Cairo94010356
Gibraltar128238683
Hong Kong420194
Jamaica59Empty on various dates114
Kandy412do.89
Malta159316898
Mauritius5244235
Pretoria138227*
Sierra Leone3142153
Singapore513Empty on various dates97
Wynberg116321*
Branh detention barracks:
Bloemfontein216Empty on various dates*
Harrismith210do.*
Khartoum22126
Middelburg, Cape Colony214Empty on various dates*
Potchefstroom219do.*
Standerton213do.*
*£1,866, South Africa (cannot be given separately).

Questions In The House

German Navy Bill

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, having regard to the fact that no translation of the German Navy Bill, 1906, nor of the German Estimates, is available, and that copies of the Bill and of the Estimates are not purchasable in Berlin, he will cause copies of the Admiralty translations of these documents to be placed in the library to enable the House to be informed as to the proposals of the German Government as to the German Navy.

I have already stated, in reply to a previous question from the hon. Member, that it is not the custom of the Admiralty to present to the library anything except their own publications.

Government Buildings And Reinforced Concrete

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Admiralty have made use of reinforced concrete in connection with Government works or buildings; whether the material has been found suitable and economical; whether it has given satisfaction and when first was it used for Admiralty purposes.

Reinforced concrete is used by the Admiralty in the construction of floors, jetties, etc. Though the prime cost is higher than that of timber, the small cost of maintenance renders it more economical, and there is no reason to anticipate that it will not continue to be satisfactory. It was first used in large works in 1904.

Birmingham Chamber Of Commerce And The Australian Tariffs

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Lord Elgin has received a communication from the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce representing that serious injury will be inflicted on Birmingham industries by the new British preferential tariff introduced into Australia by Mr. Deakin and Sir William Lyne; and what action Lord Elgin proposes to take in the matter.

Yes, Sir; as I stated yesterday, a letter making representations to this effect and asking that the operation of the tariff might be postponed has been received and communicated to the Commonwealth Government by telegraph. A reply was received to-day as follows:—"Australian practice (is) to collect new duties from date Resolutions are laid before Parliament. Not practicable (to) accede to request (of) Birmingham Chamber of Commerce."

Does the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce intend to take this lying down?

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he did not think that the Chamber of Commerce, like the Government, should enter into negotiations.

I should be loth to express an opinion as to what action ought to be taken in these or any circumstances by the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce.

The Cullinan Diamond

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Secretary of State has been approached by the Government of the Transvaal with reference to the proposal to present the Cullinan diamond to the Crown; and, if so, what advice has the Secretary of State given to the Transvaal Government.

No, Sir; the Secretary of State has not been approached by the Transvaal Government and has given no advice upon this subject.

Transvaal Civil Service

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the reorganisation of the Transvaal Civil Service is being carried out in such a way as to involve the wholesale displacement of British officials by Boers; and whether any representations have been or will be addressed by His Majesty's Government to the Government of the Transvaal on this subject.

The Secretary of State does not think that the first part of the hon. Member's question correctly represents the facts. On the general question of retrenchment, His Majesty's Government have nothing to add to the statement made by me on the 19th inst. in moving the Second Reading of the Guaranteed Loan Bill.

If the British Government were assured that British officials were being displaced through racial prejudice would they feel it incumbent on them to make friendly representations?

It would be very undesirable that we should impute motives to a self-governing Colony in respect of an action that is absolutely within its own scope and authority. A large number of displacements occurred before this Government came into office.

asked whether General Smuts had not declared that the Transvaal Government had no intention of making any discrimination.

Isle Royale

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the British flag has been hoisted upon the Isle Royale, Lake Superior; and, if so, was this done by the instructions or with the approval of His Majesty's Government.

The following telegram has been received from Lord Grey: "Referring to your telegram of 8th August, hoisting British flag, Isle Royale, no foundation for report. Some lads may have been amusing themselves at a picnic on the island."

Colonial Trade Reports

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the lack of public official information concerning the trade done by each of the British Colonies and Dependencies with foreign countries, and the importance of such information to manufacturers and merchants in the United Kingdom, he can arrange for the periodical issue of Trade Reports giving information about Colonial trade, similar to the information now furnished with regard to foreign trade in the Consular Reports published by the Foreign Office.

I would call the attention of my hon. friend to the series of Colonial Reports, of which about forty five are issued each year. A list of recent Reports is printed at the end of the latest issued, that for Sierra Leone, 1906 (Cd. 3285). This series does not at present include Colonies possessing responsible government, but no doubt the matter will receive consideration in connection with the appointment of commercial agents in the principal Colonies.

Lagos Timber Concessions

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to state the decision of the Colonial Government with regard to the Ijebu timber concession at Lagos, by which it was contended that an area of 600 squares miles, after reduced to 100, was conceded to Mr. Robert Brown by the Awujale and chiefs; whether the Secretary of State has now consulted the Governor, who is at present in England; and what action it is proposed to take.

Before consulting Sir W. Egerton, it was necessary to telegraph to the Colony for further information to complete the case; but the matter has now been referred to him. I am unable to state at present what action, if any, will be taken by the Colonial Government in the matter, and the Secretary of State is giving it his personal attention.

asked if the Government had any power to interfere in the case of bargains made with native chiefs.

said that that was largely a question for the Courts to determine, but in certain circumstances the Government had powers which they could exercise.

Turkish Raids Into Persia

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Turkey has agreed to withdraw her forces from Persian territory with a view to facilitating the delimination of the frontier.

THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY
(Mr. RUNCIMAN, Dewsbury; for Sir EDWARD GREY)

His Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople was informed on the 11th instant that orders had been sent to withdraw the troops within the neutral zone and to punish those guilty of alleged excesses. Since that date information has been received to the effect that some Turkish troops are still within Persian territory, and His Majesty's Ambassador has made further representations to the Ottoman Government.

*

Is there any truth in the report that a new and more extended raid on Persian territory has since taken place?

British Interests In Morocco

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the losses experienced by British residents at Casa Blanca, and to the statement of Mr. Bolton, a missionary, that whilst the French, German and Spanish Governments took measures for the protection of their subjects, no similar action was taken by the British; and whether he will state what action has been taken to safeguard the interests and the lives of British residents in Morocco.

My right hon. friend regrets to state that His Majesty's Consul has reported that extensive damage has been caused to the property of British and other residents at Casa Blanca, but he has no knowledge of the statement to which the hon. Member refers. His Majesty's Government considered that it was for the French and Spanish Governments to take all steps which were possible for the maintenance of order in the open ports of Morocco, and they have full reliance in the measures undertaken by those Governments for the protection of the lives and property of Europeans, irrespective of nationality, in the ports in question. No other Power sent any force to Casa Blanca, and the action of the British Government has been in conformity with that of the rest of the Powers. As regards the comparatively small number of British subjects resident in the interior of Morocco, it is understood that the members of the British Colony at Morocco City were to leave that place for the coast on the 11th instant; and the Consular Officers at Fez and Alcazar have received instructions to take what measures are possible for the withdrawal to the coast of British residents in their respective districts should the situation appear to necessitate such a step.

British Commercial Attachès

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any conclusion has yet been arrived at for giving effect to the recommendations of Sir Eldon Gorst and Mr. Llewellyn Smith in their Report upon the system of British commercial attachès and commercial agents; and, if so, whether he can state the nature of the action which it is proposed to take on that Report.

The recommendations contained in the Report have been adopted, and the new system came into force on 1st July last.

Foreign Lottery Bonds

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the decision of the police magistrate at Westminster on the 10th day of January, 1907, it is now competent for anyone to sell and advertise for sale in this country foreign lottery bonds; and, if not, in view of the conflicting decisions of the police magistrates thereon, whether the Treasury or police authorities will take immediate steps to obtain the opinion of the divisional court on such sale or advertisement for sale as to its legality or otherwise.

The decision of the magistrate at Westminster which is referred to in the Question is not decisive as to the legality of the sale and of advertisements of the sale of foreign lottery bonds; and, as my hon. friend is aware, a conviction has been obtained in similar circumstances. I have under consideration whether it is desirable to take any, and, if so, what, steps. It is open to any one to raise the legal question.

Lead Poisoning In The Earthenware Trade

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that there were twelve cases of lead-poisoning in the china and earthenware trade during last month; whether this is above or below the monthly average of such cases in this trade; and what steps he proposes to take with a view to diminishing the number of such cases.

It is the case as stated in the Question that twelve cases of lead-poisoning were reported to the Home Office in this industry in July. This number is above the average monthly number of cases during 1906 and the first six months of 1907; but as the hon. Member will understand, the numbers fluctuate to some extent from month to month and the total number of cases for the first seven months of this year is considerably below the number for the corresponding months in 1906, fifty as compared with sixty-eight. The whole question of lead-poisoning both in the Potteries and in other trades is under my consideration.

Will the Government take into consideration the desirability of gradually introducing rules against the use of lead in the future?

That question was debated on the Estimates at considerable length and perhaps the hon. Member will excuse me for not now going into so large a question.

London Police Buildings

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, as a moiety of the cost of erecting London police courts, police section houses, and barracks is paid out of the police rate, he will give directions to the receiver of the Metropolitan Police Fund to furnish a detailed statement of expenditure, separately giving the cost of the site and buildings, the annual amount of the rental received from the barracks, and the amount of the annual deficit.

Police quarters usually form part of police stations, and, in such cases, it would not be possible to give a detailed statement as suggested; but before the accounts of the Metropolitan Police Fund for the current year are issued I will consider whether some additional information might be given.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that very extravagant prices are being paid for some of these sites?

That is a matter of opinion, but if the hon. Member can give me any specific case I will inquire.

Police Discipline

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether disciplinary charges against the police are heard and decided in camera; whether the accused are allowed the aid of a legal adviser; and whether he will consider the advisability of placing the police on the same footing as the Army and Navy and giving to them in all charges involving dismissal, degradation, or serious punishment, the right of the charge being heard in public and the aid of a legal adviser if desired.

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Disciplinary charges against the police are not investigated in public, and there is no legal advisor on either side. The great majority of such charges are for breaches of service regulations, and to investigate these in public would be contrary to the interests of the police themselves and of the service. The officer concerned is given every opportunity of putting forward the facts and of calling witnesses, both police and private persons, and of having inquiries made in order to assist his defence. When, however, a member of the public makes a charge of misconduct against a police officer who denies it, and in the conflict of evidence the Commissioner or Assistant Commissioner who is investigating the matter is not absolutely satisfied that he has the means of forming a correct decision, the complainant is requested to prefer his charge before a magistrate.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the hearing of these charges in secret is one of the most serious grievances of the men?

Have the police a right of appeal from the Commissioners to the right hon. Gentleman?

Infants In Public Houses

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I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has completed his inquiries into the subject of women taking their infants and young children into public-houses in London and the large towns; and, if so, whether he will lay the reports upon the Table of the House.

I have called for and received reports upon this subject from the Metropolitan Police and from the Police of Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, and Bristol. The information collected is being summarised, but the summary is not yet complete owing to difficulties that have arisen in satisfactorily tabulating the materials furnished. I hope, however, that the summary will be ready shortly, and I will send a copy to my hon. friend.

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Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is practically the same Answer he gave me nearly six months ago?

It is not in the least the same answer. At the request of my hon. friend I extended the inquiry which I had already made, and my present Answer refers to the result of that extended inquiry.

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asked whether he could have that part of the reports that have already come to hand.

Surely my hon. friend would like the whole, so that he may draw his deductions from it.

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said what he desired was that the information which had been acquired might be given to the licensing authorities between now and February next in order that the licensees of those houses where the evil prevailed might be opposed.

said he would be very glad to discuss the matter with his hon. friend as soon as he was in possession of the information he required.

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pointed out that after next Wednesday a considerable interval would elapse before Parliament met again. This evil was a very grave one, and the House ought to have the information already obtained, so that something might be done.

asked whether a summary of these reports would be laid on the Table before the prorogation. If not, would the right hon. Gentleman publish the report

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether, when he had the whole of the evidence before him during the recess, he would arrange next session to introduce legislation dealing with the whole matter.

My hon. friend must be aware of the statement made by the Prime Minister that a Licensing Bill will form one of the first portions of the business to be transacted next session.

German Trade And The Price Of Food

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the statements in the Consular Report from Germany (3847) that, whilst commerce in that country in 1906 was good beyond expectation, a number of circumstances seem to point to the fact that the price of food has risen more rapidly and more consistently than wages; and whether he can supply any statistics bearing on or confirming the latter statement.

I have seen the report referred to. Such information as I have for Germany points to the conclusion that in recent years prices of food have risen to about the same extent as wages. I am, however, causing further inquiries to be made.

Consumption Of Meat In Germany

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the statements in the Consular Report from Germany (3847) that, whilst it is officially stated the consumption of meat per head of population has fallen from 86·3 pounds in 1905 to 81·48 pounds in 1906, the reduced consumption of meat by the working classes is really more considerable than the official figures seem to admit; whether he has any official information confirming the latter statement; and whether he can state what restrictions exist on the importation of foreign cattle, sheep, and pigs into Germany.

I have seen the statement referred to. There are no data in the possession of the Department which enable me to check the figures for the consumption of meat in the German Empire as a whole. With regard to the last part of the Question a summary of the principal existing regulations in Germany affecting the importation of live stock is given in the issue of theJournal of the Board of Agriculture for May, 1905, a copy of which I am sending to my hon. friend.

Port Of London Bill

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether any notices which would be necessary in the case of a Private Bill will be given by the Board of Trade in November in respect of the proposed Port of London Bill.

I am hoping to introduce next session a Bill dealing with the Port of London, and notices for the Bill would be given before the end of November.

Transhipments In The Thames

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether goods of foreign or colonial origin which are transhipped in the River Thames, but not landed, are included under the head of imports in the Board of Trade Returns; and, if so, whether they also appear as exports or re-exports.

Goods transhipped under transhipment bonds in the River Thames or elsewhere are not included under the general heads of imports, exports or re-exports, but a separate account is kept of their value and is published in the second volume of the "Annual Statement of Trade." Goods in transit which are not transhipped under bond are included in the Returns both of imports and re-exports.

London Locomotion

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state what power the new Traffic Department of the Board of Trade will be given to ensure that all new schemes for London locomotion seeking statutory authority are brought before it for examination; whether the Department will possess power to take evidence during such examination; whether the report of each scheme made by the Department on such examination will be forwarded to the Committee of Parliament before whom that scheme appears; and what steps, if any, are being taken to empower the Commissioner to deal with those items of London traffic which stand outside the present scope of the Board of Trade, namely, those under the control of the Home Office and the Local Government Board.

The new branch of the Board of Trade will have no power to compel promoters to submit their schemes for preliminary examination before the deposit of Bills, unless such submission should be required hereafter by an alteration of Standing Orders. In the meantime I do not anticipate that the absence of compulsory powers, either in this matter, or the taking of evidence, will seriously interfere with the work of preliminary examination. The Board of Trade will make any communication which may be necessary as the result of such examination to the Parliamentary Committee which deals with the matter. As regards matters falling within the scope of the Home Office and Local Government Board, the Board of Trade are in communication with those Departments, and are assured of their co-operation.

asked if changes would be made in the Standing Orders next session to coincide with the right hon. Gentleman's Answer.

I do not think any Amendment will be necessary, but if it should be, the matter will not be lost sight of.

Promotions In The Post Office

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he will state the number of gentlemen now in receipt of annual salaries of £300 and over employed in the Savings Bank Department, Comptroller and Accountant-General's Department, Money Order Department, Secretary's Office, and other branches of the Post Office, who were promoted to the permanent establishment from the old boy clerks class after a period of probationary service. I beg also to ask the Postmaster-General if he will state how many appointments to first-class clerkships were made in the different departments of the Post Office during the periods 1887-1891, 1897-1901, and 1902-6; and how many of the gentlemen receiving these appointments had been originally promoted to the permanent establishment from the old class of boy clerks.

I may perhaps answer these two Questions together. I do not think I should be justified in authorising the collection of the statistics asked for, as they would involve considerable expenditure of time and labour out of all proportion to any result obtainable.

Merioneth Education Dispute

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if he will state the tenor of the replies of the Merionethshire local education authority to his recent letters about the payment of salaries to teachers in non-provided schools; and what action the Board is taking.

I presume the noble Lord refers to the Board's letters to the local education authority asking whether the claims of the managers of certain voluntary schools for the repayment of sums paid by them to the teachers are correct. The Board have not as yet received replies.

In view of this procrastination, will the right hon. Gentleman telegraph to the local authority to the effect that many of these teachers have not yet received their salaries?

The noble Lord has no right to use the word "procrastination." The local authority has not delayed in this case at all. They have refused to pay the salaries on the ground of principle.

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman was not aware that it was part of the policy of the "Welsh revolt" to consume as much time as possible in correspondence with the Department.

Penrhyn Dendraeth Voluntary School

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the Merioneth-shire local education authority have refused to pay 15s., due on 30th June last, to a widow woman who is a cleaner in the Penrhyn Dendraeth voluntary school; and whether he will take steps forthwith to cause this injustice to be remedied.

The noble Lord appears to be more eager in this matter than the managers, for I have not at present received any complaint from them, nor have I any information on the subject.

No, Sir. Until I receive a complaint from the managers I shall not take any action.

The Secretary Of The Welsh Education Department

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether the Denbighshire local education authority, of which the present Secretary of the Welsh Department was a member, for some time declined to pay a salary sufficient to secure a properly qualified headmaster for Llanelian School, and the managers were forced to engage and pay the present headmaster as from the 1st January, 1906, at a salary£12 higher than that offered by the local education authority; whether the local education authority have recently agreed to pay the higher salary but have refused to pay the arrears for 1906; and whether they have been upheld in this refusal by the Board of Education, and, if so, for what reason.

The form of the Question does not make it clear whether the reference to the present Secretary of the Welsh Department is by way of identification of the local authority in question or was intended to convey an imputation upon the impartiality of a Civil Servant. I assume that the noble Lord does not intend to make insinuations conveying an unfounded charge. The evidence in this case led to the conclusion that the managers had not, in respect of the year 1906, done all in their power to obtain a teacher at the salary offered by the local authority.

Wrexham Education Scheme

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that a scheme for the administration of the Wrexham parochial education foundation is shortly to be issued, and that until it is issued it is necessarily uncertain whether the Brymbo Church of England school will preserve its denominational character; whether the Denbighshire local education authority have nevertheless insisted that certain alterations shall be carried out in the school immediately; and whether the Board of Education will secure for the managers of the school a short delay until the scheme mentioned has been issued.

The unsatisfactory character of the premises of this school has been the subject of correspondence between the Board of Education, the local education authority, and the managers since May, 1904, and I cannot consider the resolution which the local education authority have passed to be in any way unreasonable.

Does the right hon. Gentleman assume that the allegations in the Question are correct?

Garforth Parochial School

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education on what grounds the Board arrived at its decision on 3rd June, 1907, that it saw no adequate reason for requiring the reorganisation of the Garforth parochial school; and on what grounds the Board arrived at an opposite conclusion on the same matter on 12th July, 1907.

In the earlier decision of 3rd June consideration was not given to the fact that the size of the premises necessitated that a certain number of children must in any case be excluded. On my attention being drawn to this aspect of the case I had no hesitation in giving the decision of 12th July.

May I ask if the accommodation in this school was taken into consideration?

Two questions were running concurrently; that of reorganisation and that of the number of children that had to be excluded.

But had the right hon. Gentleman not considered the question of accommodation when he gave his decision of 3rd June? That is what I understand.

But the right hon. Gentleman said so himself. Is he aware that the standards to be transferred to the council school cannot be accommodated there? Did not the right hon. Gentleman on 12th July make an order transferring standards three to six from the parochial to the council school? Is he aware there is no accommodation for them in that school?

The hon. Member has not stated correctly the decision of 12th July. I gave no decision that standards three to six should be transferred.

Why, I have here the right hon. Gentleman's own correspondence. I will quote it.

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Llangollen Schools

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that for the last two years the Denbighshire local education authority, under the guidance of the present Secretary of the Welsh Department, have been attempting to convert the Llangollen boys' and girls' schools into one mixed school, and that the managers have consistently resisted the proposal, as being against the best interests of the schools; whether the Board of Education, acting by the same Secretary of the Welsh Department, have recently sanctioned this; and what is the statutory authority for this action.

The authority for my decision in the case in question rests upon the general duty of the Board of Education to do all in their power to secure the highest possible standard of efficiency; and no doubt can reasonably be raised that the amalgamation of the two small departments here involved will tend to this end.

In view of the position until recently held by the Secretary of the Welsh Department on the Denbighshire local education authority, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange in the event of any disputes arising between that body and the managers of voluntary schools they shall be dealt with by some other official of the Department?

Mortomley School Dispute—Motion For Adjournment Refused

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he had been officially informed that the money due for salaries to teachers in the school at Mortomley had yet been paid by the local education authority.

No, sir, not officially, but I am happy to tell the noble Lord that I have communicated to the managers of the schools that the local education authority have agreed to pay.

May I ask whether if the money is not paid by the end of the session the right hon. Gentleman will apply the Defaulting Authorities Act?

I cannot give an undertaking of that sort. I must first know the reason why the money was not paid. I imagined that the only reason why the money has not yet been paid is that the officials were away on holidays.

said that considering the very unsatisfactory reply of the right hon. Gentleman, he had no alternative but to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing the failure of the Government to secure payment of the salaries.

pointed out that no attempt had been made to establish that he had any authority in the matter.

said he had asked the Question repeatedly for more than a fortnight, and the salaries still remained unpaid. He maintained that the right hon. Gentleman had the power to enforce payment.

I know there is some confusion on this point. This case is not like the Merioneth case. The school in question had not been recognised, but we have now recognised it, and informed the local education authority of that fact, so that the salaries will now become payable.

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I really am not in a position to judge between the two hon. Members on this point. I think I am bound to take the assurance which has been given by the right hon. Gentleman that the county council have assured him that they are prepared to pay and are about to pay.

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I do not think even if the noble Lord was successful and the House was to adjourn that would enforce payment.

Can the right hon. Gentleman name a date by which the education authority will pay?

said he had written to the managers of the school informing them that he was satisfied with the condition of the playground, and that he was, therefore, prepared to put the school on the grant list, and the local education authority had informed him that they would raise no objection, but would give rate-aid to the school. No more than that could be done.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman tell the education authority that they must pay at once?

said he had no doubt the clerks were away on holidays, but the money would be paid.

Are the whole of the education authority and all the clerks away on holidays?

said he was informed that this money had been due for four months.

Boy Clerks' Memorial

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he has yet given a reply to the boy clerks' memorial presented in September, 1906; and, if not, can he say when a decision will be given; if any revision in their conditions of service is contemplated; and when it will take effect.

I am unable to make any definite statement on this subject at present.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that eleven months have elapsed since the memorial was sent in?

I am quite aware of that, and, as I announced yesterday, the whole scheme is now under my consideration and I hope to announce the result shortly.

Land Tax Commissioners

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether a large increase has lately been made in the numbers of the Land Tax Commissioners; what are their present duties; and is it proposed to throw any more duties upon them.

As regards the first part of this Question, I must refer the hon. Member to my Answer of the 24th ultimo.† The Land Tax Commis- sioners perform statutory duties in regard to the administration of the land tax and the appointment of persons to supply vacancies among General Commissioners of Taxes. I am not aware of any proposal of the kind indicated in the last portion of the Question.

Tree Planting Schemes In Ireland

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether two different schemes were in operation under the Department for the supply of fruit trees and plants to different parties in Ireland; whether he can give the official title of the different schemes, and state if under one of them free plants have been distributed to titled and wealthy persons by the Department.

THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE FOR IRELAND
(Mr. T. W. RUSSELL, (Tyrone, S.)

In addition to the horticultural work carried on by the county Commissioners there are two fruit schemes in operation. Under the first eight centres have been selected consisting of about twenty acres each, which have been planted to test the corn menial possibilities of growing fruit for marketing on strictly commercial lines and as a farm crop. The trees were provided by the Department free of cost. At each centre about twenty farmers were selected to conduct the experiments on the understanding that they would each furnish an acre of suitable land for the purpose and would do everything necessary for the proper cultivation of the fruit and the success of the experiment. At each centre they are assisted by a resident horticultural expert who is provided and paid by the Department. Under this scheme 175 acres have been planted. Under the second scheme—fruit growing for profit by resident gentry in Ireland—the Department defrayed half the initial cost of the fruit trees planted, and undertook to supply free expert advice as to the purchase, planting, and cultivation of the trees and in the grading, packing, and marketing of the produce. Slightly over forty acres have been planted in connection with this scheme, and the experiments which are being carried out are with the same object as the first scheme. A few of the landowners who have co-operated with the Department in this scheme are titled.

asked if directions would be given in future that money intended for the poor of Ireland should not be used to provide trees for wealthy individuals.

I hope I shall be able to find better use for it than proposed under the second scheme.

Were the local authorities consulted in regard to these schemes?

Is it not the fact that several Members of the House of Lords are among the resident gentry who had trees supplied at the public expense?

I have a list of the names here, but I do not think any useful purpose would be served by reading it.

Consultative Committee On Educational Administration

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether, by Section 23 of the Act establishing the Department, a Consultative Committee for the purpose of Co-ordinating Educational Administration was created; whether this Committee was ever called together since 1899, and, if not, what was the cause of allowing the section to remain inoperative for eight years; and if he now proposes to take any steps to put Section 23 into force by calling the committee together.

The Consultative Committee for Co-ordinating Educational Administration, constituted by Section 23 of the Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899, meets from time to time as circumstances require. The last meeting was held on 16th April in the present year. The next meeting will probably be held in October.

Ballinagh District Medical Officer

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will say in how many cases the Local Government Board have objected to the appointment of temporary medical officers in dispensary districts on the ground that the proposed doctor resided outside the district; is he aware that, in the Ballinagh dispensary district, the doctor who has been doing temporary duty for over three months resided in Cavan, where the doctor whose appointment is refused also resides; will he state why the two doctors have been meted out different treatment; will he state in how many cases the Local Government Board have surcharged Poor Law guardians for payments to doctors appointed to do temporary duty, whose appointments were not sanctioned by the Local Government Board, within the last three years; and will he state whether the Local Government Board intend t have the guardians surcharged in Dr. Clarke's case.

The Local Government Board are unable to state, without a very extensive search, the number of cases in which they have made objections, or the number in which surcharges have been made. In refusing to sanction Dr. Clarke's appointment the Board acted under Article 22 of their Dispensary Rules, winch was framed in the interests of the sick poor. It is the fact that the previous temporary medical officer resided in Cavan, but the Board objected to this arrangement and the guardians themselves eventually found it to be inconvenient and put an end to it. More-ever, Dr. Clarke's case differs from that of the previous temporary medical officer, inasmuch as it was proposed to place him in charge of three dispensary districts, in not one of which he resides. The power of surcharge rests with the Auditor, and not with the Local Government Board.

Cock-Fighting On Dernagore Island

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that, on the 6th July last, at Dernagore Island, in Carrowel River, where Cavan borders Fermanagh, a force of police pursued some young fellows alleged to be about to take part in a cock-fight at 11.30 in the morning; will he say why the police shot at these young men, and why seven shots were fired in broad daylight; did the police summon the parties for cock-fighting; is he aware that the police broke a cot the property of one Donohoe, and will he be paid compensation for the act of the police; and will all the circumstances of this affair be looked into, with a view to the police discharging this part of their duty without using their firearms in this peaceful district.

On 6th July, at half-past one in the morning, the police came upon a party of men preparing to hold cock-fights on Tranish Island in Lough Erne. The party then crossed to the opposite shore of the lake, whither they were pursued by the police. About half-past ten, after a nine-hours chase, the party, which numbered several hundreds succeeded in reaching Dernagore Island by means of cots, which I understand to be small boats. The police had no boats at the place, and a constable swam across to the island with the object of getting one. He was met by a number of men who rushed at him with stones in their hands, and one of his comrades on the opposite bank thereupon fired two revolver shots in the air in order to deter the men. The constable swam back without getting a boat. Seventy-eight persons were summoned by the police for aiding and abetting in cock-fighting, and fines were imposed. I am informed that the police did not break any cot. The Inspector-General does not think it necessary to issue any special instructions in the matter. The constable who fired in the air merely did so as a warning to the men who were threatening his comrade.

Lismore Union Clerk

On behalf of the hon. Member for the Blackpool Division of Lancashire, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland what were the reasons assigned by the Court for declining to give Alexander Heskin, who has been appointed to the clerkship of Lismore Union, his discharge in bankruptcy.

The Chief Registrar of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland informs me that Mr. Heskin does not appear to have ever applied for the certificate which is the equivalent of an English discharge in bankruptcy, and therefore it is not the case that the Court has declined to give a certificate.

Waterford District Asylum Committee

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution of the Waterford District Asylum Committee on the 12th instant, rescinding a resolution of the committee at its previous meeting giving Dr. Oakshott, the resident medical superintendent, an increase of £50 to his salary of £700; whether he is aware that the resolution granting the increase, now rescinded, was carried only by the casting vote of the chairman; whether he is aware that several of the rural councils of the county Waterford have unanimously passed resolutions against the increase, having regard to the fact that the maintenance charges for the asylum have increased by over £3,000 in the past year; and whether the approval given by the Lord-Lieutenant to the increase of salary is now of effect, in view of the rescission by the committee of the resolution granting it.

The facts are as stated in the Question, save that Dr. Oakshott's former salary was £450 per annum, and that the increase in the maintenance charges of the asylum, which is due to an increase in the number of patients, amounts to less than £300 a year. The concurrence of the Lord-Lieutenant in the increase of salary is now of effect notwithstanding the rescission by the Committee of the resolution granting the increase of salary. The Committee had no power to rescind that resolution without the Lord-Lieutenant's concurrence. Dr. Oakshott's rights as an existing officer at the passing of the Local Government Act of 1898 were reserved to him by Section 115 of that Act. If the Act had not passed, he would before now have received in the ordinary course an increase of £100 per annum, and as a matter of fact the Committee granted him an increase of that amount in May last, but subsequently rescinded the resolution.

Holywood District Council Clerk

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the proceedings of the Holywood Urban District Council in relation to the embezzlements by James H. Barrett, the ex-clerk of the council, extending from the year 1899, when he was appointed clerk, down to 1905, when he was dismissed, of moneys received by him on account of the cemetery, town court, and general funds of the council; whether the Local Government Board of Ireland advised the council that they would approve of the council instituting the criminal proceedings advised by senior counsel who had been consulted by the council's solicitor, or of a compromise of the felony; whether he is aware that the council, acting as alleged upon the advice of the Local Government Board, submitted the person accused to a cross-examination on the 8th instant, and a suggestion was made to the accused that a payment by him of £30 and £25, moneys expended by the council in connection with the matter and of the amounts not accounted for by him, would secure him immunity from a criminal prosecution; and whether he will at once consider the entire facts, in the interest of the ratepayers of Holywood and of public official life.

The attention of the Local Government Board was drawn to the proceedings referred to in the first part of the Question. The Board received a deputation from the Holywood Urban District Council who laid before them senior counsel's opinion and other documents in the matter. The Board informed the deputation that the matter was one for the council to decide, but suggested that, before taking any proceedings against Mr. Barrett, the council should give him an opportunity of attending and making a personal explanation in respect of the allegations made against him. Mr. Barrett attended before the district council on 8th instant, but the minutes of proceedings do not show that any suggestion of the nature referred to in the Question was made to him. Mr. Barrett is no longer in the employment of the district council, and the matter has therefore passed out of the jurisdiction of the Local Government Board. The question of taking proceedings is still under the consideration of the district council.

Banbridge Train Disturbance

I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the attack made near Banbridge, county Down, on Thursday night, on a train containing Nationalists returning from a political meeting in Rostrevor; whether he is aware that, in addition to hurling stones through the carriage windows, an attempt was made to wreck the train by placing stones on the track; and whether, in view of the numerous previous complaints about conduct of a similar character in the neighbourhood, the police will be directed to exercise closer vigilance in the future.

The police authorities inform me that on the evening in question, at a place about 1½ miles from Banbridge, a great many stones were thrown at the excursion train referred to and sixteen carriage windows were broken. The police, however, are of opinion that no attempt was made to derail the train. The engine driver did not observe anything unusual in the motion of the engine. The stones found beside the rails were small, and appeared to have been those thrown at the train. As is customary on such occasions, the police were posted at intervals along what was considered to be the dangerous portions of the line, but the stone-throwing took place outside that area. The police will take all possible precautions to prevent and detect offences of this nature.

Belmullet Railway

On behalf of the hon. Member for South Dublin, I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any progress has been made in regard to the railway to Belmullet.

The Irish Government are in communication with the Midland Great Western Railway Company on this subject, but matters have not reached a stage at which I could with advantage make any public statement.

Irish National Teachers' Civil Rights

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has yet ascertained if the Commissioners of National Education were unanimous in their decision refusing to comply with his request to modify the rules dealing with the civil rights of teachers.

The Commissioners of National Education have informed me that, in their opinion, it is undesirable, in the interests of the public service, to give information such as is asked for in the Question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether this is his opinion—if not will he have the salaries of these Commissioners refused until they comply with a reasonable request of this kind?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what are the civil rights referred to?

Are we to understand that the public rights of citizens are refused when a man enters the public service in Ireland?

No, and I may say that teachers in other countries outside Ireland are subjected to certain disciplinary rules with a view to securing civil respect and independence. I certainly think that the rules in Ireland press very heavily.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to have these Commissioners made amenable to Parliament?

Irish National Board Of Education

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the National Education Board of Ireland do not think it desirable to give to Parliament details as to the attendance at Board meetings of each of its members, and the amount of travelling and personal expenses received by each member from the 1st July, 1906, to the 30th June, 1907, on the ground that no useful purpose would be served by furnishing this information to Parliament, and that they state that payments for such travelling and personal expenses are regularly audited by the Exchequer and Audit Department; and whether he will consider the desirability of securing that Parliament, having to vote this money, should be informed as to the amounts and particulars of its expenditure, and will he take steps to see that it is given in the way asked by the hon. Member for Kilkenny.

Perhaps I may be allowed to answer this Question. In my reply to the hon. Member's former Question on the 14th instant, I stated that the Commissioners had informed me that they did not think it desirable to give details as to the attendance of individual members of their body, as they considered that no useful purpose would be served by furnishing this information. This answer was not meant to refer to the travelling and personal expenses of the Commissioners, but merely to the number and dates of the meetings attended by each Commissioner. Members of the Board receive first class travelling expenses, together with an allowance of a guinea for each night necessarily spent from home when attending meetings, or an allowance of 7s. for an absence from home of not less than eight hours when absence for the night is not necessary. These allowances are, of course, made only to members of the Board who do not reside in Dublin. The Commissioners inform me that, so far, the sum of £656 12s. 5d. has been paid in respect of the travelling and personal expenses of their body during the year ending 30th June last. The accounts of some of the Commissioners have not yet been presented, and therefore a full statement of the amounts paid to each Commissioner is not yet available.

Irish Trade In Australia

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Commercial Intelligence Committee requested its special commissioner, when inquiring into Australian trade conditions, to restrict his investigation to the trade of Great Britain with Australia, or was he instructed to inquire to what extent Irish trade was carried on with Australia; and, if so, can he explain why the Report is entitled Report upon the Conditions and Prospects of British Trade in Australia, in view of the fact that the term British does not include Irish.

The Commissioner's instructions were not confined to the trade of Great Britain, and I do not think that the term "British" in trade statistics is usually understood to exclude "Irish."

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in consequence of the small amount of information as to Irish trade with Australia given in the recently-issued Report of the Commercial Intelligence Committee, he will arrange that, in the event of similar inquiries being instituted as to the trade of Great Britain and Ireland with English Colonies or with foreign countries, the special commissioner shall be instructed to make special inquiries about the existence of an Irish trade, and to report thereon.

I have noted the point raised by my hon. friend in case of any similar inquiries which may be instituted in future.

Ballinskelligs Sub-Postmaster

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Mr. Patrick Haren, when sub-postmaster at Ballinskelligs, county Kerry, in consequence of the increasing postal business, spent £50 on building a second office, having been promised that he would get rent for it; that, when the building was finished, he applied for the rent, but received no reply from the Post Office authorities; and whether, in view of the fact that the sub-postmastership has now been transferred, through no fault or incapacity on the part of Mr. Haren, he will take steps to compensate Mr. Haren for the expense to which he was put in erecting this office.

It was a condition of Mr. Haren's appointment that he should provide the necessary accommodation for the post office busi- ness, and I understand that he altered his premises from time to time for this purpose; but I cannot find that any promise was ever made to him that he would be allowed rent in consideration of such expenditure, and indeed it would be contrary to practice to make any such allowance.

Dunturk Letter Delivery

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General, whether arrangements can be made for a daily delivery of letters in Upper Drumnaquoile, Castle-wellan, and in parts of Dunturk and Drumaroad bordering on the new railway line, so as to obviate a day's delay on three days a week.

I have called for a report on this subject, and I will send the hon. Member a reply.

English Material In Irish Public Buildings

I beg to ask the Vice President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if the English architect employed in connection with the proposed College of Science in Dublin proposes that the superstructure of the new building shall be of brick, faced with Portland stone courses; and, if so, can he state why, in accordance with pledges publicly given, Irish stone and material are not intended to be used in the construction of this Irish building.

Perhaps I may be allowed to answer this Question. So far as I am aware, no pledge has been given of the kind suggested by the hon. Member. The intention announced in my reply of the 14th May last to the hon. Member for South Donegal,† and in previous answers to questions given by my predecessor last session, is being carried out.

Was the architect acting under the instructions of the Government

Is it not a fact that a pledge was given by the Government that the building was to be of Irish building material? and is it not a fact that it is proposed to use now a special kind of English brick on this Irish building?

said that was not so. The architect had found in Ireland a brick quite suitable, and the basement storey was of Irish stone and brick, and Irish material was used in every part of the building where possible. About 75 per cent. of the building would be of Irish material.

Is it not a fact that it is proposed to face this building with English red brick, and also to use a stone called Portland stone? And is it not a fact that stone equally good could be had in Ireland?

No stone or brick except Irish will be used where it is possible to use them.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman give a pledge that Irish stone would be used, and is the hon. Gentleman aware that Donegal stone, which is perfectly suitable, was used in the erection of the Letterkenny Cathedral?

asked why English convict stone was sent over to Ireland? Why did not the Government keep it for their own buildings.

said Irish brick and stone were used where possible, but there were some parts of the building where Irish stone would not be as good as Portland stone, and where the latter was necessary the architect would look for the best stone.

asked whether it was not a fact that the reason the Irish stone was not supposed to be good enough was that it was alleged that in a certain place the Irish stone broke, and was it not a fact that the reason it broke was because it was badly set.

asked whether it was not a fact that experts of great authority had decided that Mount Charles stone in the county Donegal was far more durable than Portland stone.

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reminded hon. Members that there were several other Questions on the Paper.

East India Revenue Accounts

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury on what date it is proposed to resume the adjourned discussion on going into Committee upon East India Revenue Accounts.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

As I have already explained, the House will be asked to go into Committee on the Indian Budget merely to carry out the usual practice, and there will be no resumption of the debate. The date will be fixed by arrangement with the Opposition.

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to, Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill; Isle of Man (Customs) Bill, without Amendment.

Companies Bill Lords

As amended, considered.

said the object of the clause he wished to move was to make it a statutory offence for persons to hold themselves out as trading with limited liability unless duly incorporated. This clause had been settled in conference with the President of the Board of Trade who admitted its desirability. It would be accepted and there was no need for him to detain the House discussing it.

seconded. New clause—

"If any person or persons trade or carry on business under any name or title of which 'Limited' is the last word, such person or persons shall, unless duly incorporated with limited liability, be liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds for every (lay upon which such name or title has been used."—(Mr. Bottomley.)
Brought up and read a first time. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

said the clause was a very desirable one. It seemed to cover a real necessity and was of considerable importance.

said he welcomed the clause. The point arose when the Limited Partnerships Bill was under discussion. They were very sensible to strike out the word "limited" on that occasion, because had they not done so it would have been in direct contradiction to what they were doing at the present time. Proposed clause read a second time and added to the Bill.

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in moving a new clause (Issue of new capital at a discount), said the clause was not a new one. It was settled in the other House and then came down to the Commons and was read a second time. There were only three words altered, but substantially it was the same clause that had passed the Second Reading. It would be necessary for him to take the House back to the origin of the clause. The Departmental Committee appointed in 1905 was a particularly strong one. There were commercial men of high standing among its members and it was presided over by the Lord Chancellor during its preliminary stages and later by Mr. Warmington, one of the highest authorities upon this subject. The Committee reported and it was upon that report that the Bill was founded. This measure was introduced in the House of Lords and discussed there at considerable length. Members of highest eminence and authority took part in the discussion and approved of the clause. It came down to the Lower House and was also approved of there. The clause came before them as a new clause but it was really a re-insertion of the old clause which allowed shares to be issued at discount. It was a fact that up to the present time there had been no actual provision in any Act of Parliament prohibiting shares of this kind. But when, under the Act of 1862, the matter was considered by the Law Courts, it was decided finally that shares should not be issued at discount. Occasions arose in which it was proved in the history of companies it would be beneficial for shareholders that they should have this power for finding further money for the objects of the company, and if they could not issue in the form of debenture they should contribute by taking shares at a much lower price than that at which they were originally issued. Many cases of reconstruction had come before the Court, and in a perfectly legitimate way they had been authorised to issue new shares to their shareholders at a discount. The practice had prevailed for some ten or fifteen years and it had proved beneficial alike to the shareholders and the companies. It was, however, a cumbrous and expensive method. The Departmental Committee considered that the method could be wisely done away with, and that instead of this cumbrous machinery of a reconstruction the company should be allowed to go straight to the shareholders and issue further shares to them at a discount. There was a provision that before this could be done the company must have carried on business for upwards of two years. That would ensure that it had about it the elements of stability, and the issue of more shares would simply mean that after two years work it had not sufficient funds to carry on its operations. The issue could only be made with the sanction of an extraordinary resolution of the shareholders and the amount of the rate of discount must be disclosed in the prospectus. Then a statement must be filed with the Registrar. With all of this he entirely agreed. The shareholders would have the matter entirely in their own hands. The clause had been struck out by the Standing Committee, but he felt very strongly that it should be reinserted by the House. It would save in the future a great deal of the money and the time of the share holders, and on the whole anything more desirable it was difficult to imagine. On these grounds he moved that the clause be reinserted.

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seconded the Motion in the interests of shareholders. It was impossible to prevent the issue of shares at a discount. It was done now by means of underwriters who took a commission of 10, 20, or even 50 per cent. on the understanding that if the public did not come forward and take up the shares they would take them up themselves. The effect of this was that the company only got a fraction of the nominal amount—10s. or 15s. in the £. The cumbersome method of reconstruction which was another way whereby a company could issue shares at a discount was another very strong argument in favour of this new clause. A company was formed, and after working a short time it was reconstructed and sold to a new company. If the old shareholders did not come in and take up the shares the directors had the right to sell them in the open market, and very often £1 shares could be bought at 5s., 4s. or even less. This cumbersome and expensive machinery would not be necessary if the principle embodied in the new clause were accepted. New clause:—

"In page 5, after Clause 6, to insert the following clause: 'Issue of Shares at a discount. Where a company, which has continuously carried on business for more than two years after the company became entitled to commence business, offers shares for subscription, the shares may, with the sanction of an extraordinary resolution of the company, be offered and issued at a discount if the amount or rate of the discount is disclosed in the prospectus, or, where no prospectus offering the shares for subscription is issued, in a statement in the prescribed form verified in like manner as a statement in lieu of prospectus and filed with the registrar, and where a circular or notice, not being a prospectus, inviting subscriptions for the shares is issued, also disclosed in that circular or notice.'"—(Mr. Fell.)
Brought up and read a first time. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

said that this was not quite a case of the reinsertion of a clause struck out by the Committee upstairs, and he was afraid he could not see his way to make the concession now asked for. There was very considerable opposition to this proposal in the community. The reasons given were—he did not propose to adopt those reasons himself—that it would serve to encourage gambling. A company would cease to be a mere speculative venture and would become a pure gamble. He was not sure that they ought to encourage transactions of this kind in regard to companies which had got beyond a speculative stage. If they wanted to raise money it could be done under the Act of 1900, and he thought that was as far as Parliament was justified in going at the present moment. It was true there might be certain cases where it was desirable, but it was probably one case in a thousand. There was a feeling amongst good sound authorities that it would be dangerous to encourage gambling of this kind in the City, and at the present moment he thought it would be unwise to go beyond the Act of 1900. There was an apprehension that the clause would lead to the watering of capital. That was what it would come to. An issue of £400,000 would only produce £100,000. He did not think they ought to go out of their way to assist operations of that kind. This Amendment was proposed and discussed and withdrawn in the Committee upstairs, and he did not think those who were in favour of the clause as it then stood would succeed in carrying it through the House.

said the reason the proposal was not challenged was that the Members who would have challenged it were not put on the Committee.

There were only two or three at the outside, and I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has any right to assume that they were in favour of the clause. The rest of the Committee were pretty solid against it.

said the President of the Board of Trade had informed the House that he was not in favour of this clause because it would promote gambling on line, which merited the condemnation of the House.

I did not say that would be the effect. I said there was a strong feeling in the City that that would be the effect.

said he accepted the right hon. Gentleman's correction if he did not intend to convey the meaning attached to his words. At any rate, he opposed the clause because it might lead to the use of improper methods of raising money. In his judgment it would do exactly the reverse. What was the position? A perfectly well-managed and honourable concern might get into difficulties which the best of management could not have prevented. It might have practically used up the whole of its working capital. What did the present law say the company must do if it was not to be wound up and those interested in it lose all their money? There must be a reconstruction, which would mean that wealthy persons would be able to take the shares in the reconstructed company while the poor shareholders in the old company would be shut out and would lose their money. Under this clause the directors would call the shareholders together instead of having to go round the City to raise money on which they would pay a commission of 25 per cent. Therefore, from the point of view of having the whole business above-board he thought the clause was essential, and he hoped the President of the Board of Trade would reconsider his decision.

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said the right hon. Gentleman had expressly repudiated the interpretation which had been placed upon his words by the hon. Member for Hoxton. While there was, no doubt, something in the argument of the hon. Member, he desired to point out that companies with security could always raise fresh capital by means of debentures or prior lien debentures, so long as they had anything left to pledge. He could not see that the rejection of this clause would have the effect of placing a company in the position that had been suggested, and such inquiries as he had been able to make led him to doubt whether there was any strong feeling in the City in favour of this clause. This power did exist with regard to debentures, and he did not think it was necessary to extend it to shares.

hoped the President of the Board of Trade would adhere to the attitude he had taken up in this matter. The hon. Member opposite had totally misconceived the altered circumstances in which shares were offered to the public on the reconstruction of a company. When a company was in difficulties and it reconstructed and its new shares were offered at less than par, a certain proportion of the price being fully paid, the fully paid portion of those shares was the purchase price of the old company, and the whole of those shares came into the market as vendors' shares. There were so many different features in connection with this matter that he would not weary the House by mentioning them all. But he would point out that when a company was reconstructed and the shares were issuable at less than par value, certain rights accrued at law which entitled the shareholders of the old company who disapproved of the reconstruction to be paid out. There was such a thing as Section 161 of the Companies Act, which provided that dissenting shareholders should be bought out. When the old shareholders who approved of the reconstruction had decided as to what extent they would take up shares in the reconstructed company, then the company could issue shares, but those who bought them would have to pay something more for them than was paid by the old shareholders. The main object of that was to prevent the old shareholders being swamped by a purely fictitious capitalisation. He attached no importance to the suggested safeguard given in the articles of association. His experience had taught him that nothing in the articles of association affected the minds of the shareholders. They did not read them, neither did the intending investor. Therefore, he did not think the protection in the articles of association would have any affect. Neither did he think a companyin extremiswould do any good by issuing further debentures. On all these grounds, and he had some experience in company matters, he strongly supported the Government in this matter.

said he supported the clause of his hon. friend. He pointed out that this clause did not refer to companies at the commencement of their business, and that it was not possible for shares to be issued at a discount unless the company had been in existence for two years. The only question that arose to his mind was whether a company taking up new business should raise the capital for the new business by debentures or by an issue of new shares. Under this clause the shares could be issued at a small discount. For his part he could not see why there should be any objection to the clause. The conduct of a business ought to be left to the people concerned in it, and surely this was a question that should be left to the discretion of those who conducted the business. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment.

said he would like to enforce what the hon. Member had said, namely, that in the opinion of the commercial world this clause was very valuable. If they issued shares at a premium they surely should have the right, if it was necessary, to issue them at a discount. Perhaps a company might wish to economise, having spent a great deal of money and requiring further money to come in. They certainly ought to have the right to ask the new shareholders to come in at a reduced price, because they had a reduced prospect to offer them. That was a very strong point indeed. It was certainly a much better process than to say to a man, "Let me issue the debentures at a higher charge of 20 or 30 per cent., and penalise you in that way." He appreciated the way in which the Bill had been treated by the President of the Board of Trade, and whilst he would like to see this clause put in he was quite content to sink his feelings. He hoped that it would not be pressed now, though at some future time it might with advantage be adopted. He protested, however, on behalf of the commercial world generally, and he thought in the general interest of those who were concerned in the honesty and propriety of company working, against the issue of shares at a discount being treated, as so many had treated it, as if it were a gambling transaction and a fraud on the public. It was a perfectly honest transaction, and in the same way as they asked shareholders to come in at a profit, they should be permitted, if there was a loss, to ask them to come in at a discount. Question put, and negatived.

moved on Clause 1 to insert the words, "Signed by every person named therein as a director or proposed director of the company, or by his agent authorised in writing." The object of the Amendment was that where a company had not issued a prospectus, each director or proposed director should sign a declaration to be lodged with the Registrar. Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 10, after the word 'prospectus,' to insert the words 'signed by every person named therein who is a director, or proposed director of the company, or by his agent authorised in writing.'"—(Mr. Markham.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

I think I can accept that Amendment. It is reasonable that a declaration should be signed.

It will be signed in the same way by the directors. Question put, and agreed to.

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moved an Amendment to the effect that not less than one quarter of the amount offered for subscription should be subscribed before going to allotment. He thought that such an Amendment would be of material assistance, because it was desirable that there should be as full information as possible, so that the subscribers might form a true and just opinion of the merits of the concern before they subscribed. The clause as drawn at present, he thought, would have entirely the contrary effect, because it appeared to him that instead of the real minimum subscription with which the company intended to go to allotment, there would be just a purely nominal amount in the statement, the articles, and the memorandum of association. That was done at the present time to a considerable extent. They very often saw that the amount on which they went to allotment was the minimum amount of £100. That showed it was purely a nominal sum; there was nothing substantial in it at all; they put in a nominal figure while they were making up their mind what amount of capital they were going to issue. So that the statement, the articles, and the memorandum would all contain the nominal amount of £100 or even £10; it was not limited. If the Amendment were adopted and they put in one-fourth of the amount offered for subscription, that would in any case be a substantial amount. There was all the difference in the world between showing a substantial figure and merely putting in a nominal sum—say £100, whether the amount to be subscribed was £10,000, £50,000, or £1,000,000. The nominal figure would not convey the slightest information to the shareholders as to the amount to be subscribed.

Can the hon. Gentleman give an instance where a large company has given £100?

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said he would not mention any names there, but he could name to the hon. Member several. It might be remembered that in the early days of the Companies Act it used to be common for ten, fifteen, or twenty persons, to sign the memorandum, each with a large amount to his name, but afterwards the number became seven persons, each for a nominal amount, generally £1. It would be of immense assistance to the public if, when there were £100,000 shares to be issued, they knew that at least 25 per cent. were going to be subscribed. There was no cause which contributed so much to the failure of companies as allowing directors to go to allotment with very small subscriptions. If they required that one-fourth, or one-third, or some substantial figure should be subscribed, it would be a great protection to the original subscribers, for it was they who lost their money, and it was they who required some such protection as that which he proposed.

seconded the Amendment. Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 26, after the word 'subscription,' to insert the words 'being not less than one-quarter of the amount offered for subscription.'"
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

said he did not think that the Amendment would afford any real security. Let them take the case put by the hon. Gentleman of a company with £100,000 capital. It would want to pay so much to the vendor, and would want, say, £30,000 in cash. What protection would the Amendment give? If they had one-fourth the company would not have their working capital. If the. whole amount subscribed was devoted to working capital they had not the amount which they thought necessary to carry on the company. Then, again, the whole of the one-fourth might go into the pocket of the vendor and not a penny be devoted to working capital. Merely to say it should be a minimum of one-fourth was purely illusory. It was deluding the public into the idea that they had got the sum, which was a great mistake, and that they had statutory security. He agreed with the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London that the less they interfered the better, that they ought not to interfere unless there was a real demand from the people concerned in the working of these companies, and that they should do so only for the protection of the public. Fools could not be protected, but investors were innocent very often, and especially the small investor was taken in. This. was no protection to him; it was really taking him in. The best thing to do was what the Act of 1900 did. It must be stated in the prospectus what the minimum was upon which they would proceed to allotment, and that was all they could do. If, after reading the prospectus, and seeing that the directors had taken power to go to allotment with £100, while asking for £100,000, the investor still went on paying his money, he was such a fool that he deserved to lose it. Question put, and negatived.

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I accept that. Amendment proposed—

"In page 5, line 34, to leave out the words 'for any special reason.'"—(Mr. Berridge.)
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

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on Clause 9, which deals with the payment of interest out of capital, proposed that this should only be done to defray the expenses of permanent works, and should not apply to buildings or the provision of plant, which could not be made profitable for a lengthened period. The object of the Amendment, he said, was to make these companies act more in accord with the Acts which Parliament had passed, dealing with the construction of permanent works, such as railways or canals. As the clause stood at present, it would apply to every company that he could possibly imagine, and to every conceivable object. Whatever the company might be, it would certainly have some works or buildings, or plant, or something or other of that nature, and might pay interest out of capital during its construction, and perhaps continue this until six months after it was completed. In the very nature of things this could not be the intention of the clause. It must be intended that the work was to be of a permanent nature. That it should apply to all companies and all works wherever in the world they might be, that they should pay interest during the construction, seemed to him to be going far beyond anything that had ever been entertained by Parliament, or any other body, and he would oppose it, and most certainly go to a division if he received support, because if the work was not to be permanent they ought not to encourage it and help people to get money to carry this work out. It had been suggested that a coal mine shaft and works were permanent, and that such a company should therefore be allowed to pay interest during construction. But how could they possibly draw the line at a colliery company? If it was a lead or a tin mine the shaft was equally permanent, and so was a gold mine, and really every other enterprise had some work under construction. It might be of the most transient nature, but under this clause, as it stood, a company paid interest on the capital employed exactly as if it were a permanent thing like a railroad or a canal. It was very easy to understand how it arose in regard to great permanent works like railways and canals. A railway was a definite thing to go from one place to another. It paid practically nothing during the whole time of its construction, but when it united the two places it had almost at once a large revenue, and was able to pay interest. Parliament had seen from the first that it would be impossible to raise money for works of that kind, which gave no return for some years, unless they gave this power, but he had heard no arguments which in any way led him to believe that such a provision as this was essential, or even desirable in the case of ordinary companies. He had, therefore, great pleasure in moving that the word "permanent" should be inserted before the word "works."

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in seconding, said he thought this was a sound Amendment. The President of the Board of Trade would be aware that the Departmental Report on which the Bill was founded said "a company expending capital in the construction of buildings or works of magnitude which cannot be placed in a profit-earning position for a lengthy period." It was evidently the intention of the gentlemen who made the Report that the works should be works of magnitude and permanence. They did not use the word "permanent," but it was evidently their intention that they should be of a permanent nature. No doubt the principle of allowing a company to pay interest on capital during construction was a perfectly sound one, for this reason, that the interest during construction was really part of the capital, because people had to wait until the works were completed before they could get any interest on their money.

I use the very words quoted from the Report of the Commissioners. They seem to imagine that they are better, and therefore I have inserted them.

said the words were "in the construction of buildings or works of magnitude." Those words were not used, but evidently it was the intention of the Report that the undertaking should be an important one, and that it should not apply to small capital outlays and undertakings of a trivial nature. The principle was a sound one and had been established by the Chancery Division of the High Court in various cases. Parliament had also laid down the same principle in the case of railway companies, canal companies, and other large companies applying for powers. The Bill extended the principle to industrial companies, but he held that it was the intention of the Report that that extension should be confined to works of magnitude and permanence, and it would be establishing a very dangerous precedent if the House were to lay down the principle that interest should be paid on capital expenditure which was merely of a revenue character. The President of the Board of Trade would quite appreciate his point. He wanted to confine this principle to capital of a permanent nature. No doubt capital was spent on various things. It was capital expenditure in the case of a large colliery putting in the machinery and providing winding ropes, cords, and other things of that character, but would it be right to pay interest on them during construction? The sinking of the shaft would be of a permanent character, and if this Amendment were passed it would confine the payment of interest on capital to works of that sort. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to accept this Amendment. Amendment proposed—

"In page 6, line 26, after the word 'any,' to insert the word 'permanent.'"—(Mr. Fell.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'permanent' be there inserted."

did not think there was very much in the Amendment, although, on the whole, he was inclined to think it would be better if the right hon. Gentleman accepted it. He was opposed to the clause altogether, and would be glad to see it omitted. The Board of Trade had to give their sanction and recognise that the works must be of a permanent character.

said that after the hon. Baronet's remarks it was hardly necessary for him to say anything further. He had been told that the word "permanent" was a very risky word to use. No reasonable interpretation could be given of it, and they could not say whether it should apply for thirty or forty years. The Commissioners advised him that the words he had adopted were the safest to use. As the hon. Baronet had already pointed out, there was a safeguard of a very adequate kind in the fact that they had to get the sanction of the Board of Trade, and there would be an inquiry by that Department.

said his point was that there was no principle laid down to guide the Board of Trade in their decision.

thought the matter might be safely trusted to the Board of Trade. Everything was very carefully safeguarded, and this was done by statutory enactment in regard to railway companies. It was very difficult to interpret what the meaning of the word "permanent" was, and he thought it would be better to stand by the words recommended by the Committee than use words of the kind suggested, which were capable of many different interpretations.

was understood to say that it was an unwise and worthless clause, which could be evaded by anybody who wanted to evade it. Amendment negatived. Amendments proposed—

"In page 6, line 32, after the word 'work' to insert the words 'building or plant.'"
"In page 7, line 11, after the word 'works,' to insert the words 'or buildings.'"
"In page 7, line 11, after the word 'completed,' to insert the words 'or the plant provided.'"
"In page 8, line 6, to leave out lines 6 and 7, and line 8 to the word 'are.'"
"In page 8, line 18, to leave out from the word 'Kingdom,' to the word 'and,' in line 20, and to insert the words 'the delivery to and the receipt by the registrar of a copy of the instrument by which the mortgage or charge is created or evidenced, verified in the prescribed manner, shall have the same effect for the purposes of this section as the delivery and receipt of the instrument itself, and twenty-one days after the date on which the instrument or copy could, in due course of post, and if despatched with due diligence, have been received in the United Kingdom, shall be substituted for twenty-one days after the date of the creation of the mortgage or charge, as the time within which the particulars and instrument or copy are to be delivered to the registrar.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
"In page 8, line 23, to leave out the words 'deed purporting to charge specifically such property,' and to insert the words 'instrument creating or purporting to create such mortgage or charge.'"
"In page 9, line 31, after the word 'indirectly,' to insert the words 'by the company.'"
"In page 9, line 33, to leave out the word 'a,' and to insert the word 'the.'"—(Mr. Cave.)
Amendments agreed to.

moved to add words to Clause 10 providing that Section 15 of the Companies Act, 1900, should apply in respect of the registration of a mortgage or charge under this section. He said that this was to meet a case where by inadvertence a mortgage or charge had not been registered. In a case where there had been an omission by mistake the Court ought to have power to give relief. Amendment proposed—

"In page 11, line 2, at the end, to add the words '(10) Section fifteen of The Companies Act, 1900, shall apply in respect of the registration of a mortgage or charge under this section.'"—(Mr. Cave.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

said the Amendment was unnecessary. The Act of 1900 would cover the case to which the hon. Member referred.

If the right hon. Gentleman takes the responsibility of saying, that, I do not press the Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendments proposed.

"In page 12, line 6, after the word 'at,' to insert the words 'the time of.'"
"In page 12, line 6, after the second word 'to,' to insert the words 'the creation of.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
Amendments agreed to.

moved a new subsection in order to meet a point which was raised by the hon. Member for Durham when the Bill was before the Committee upstairs. He thought on the whole the hon. Member was right, and the clause had been redrafted in the present form. Amendment proposed—

"In page 13, line 9, to leave out from the word 'issued,' to end of sub-section, and to insert the words, 'Provided that any person lending money on the security of a debenture re-issued under this section which appears to be duly stamped may give the debenture in evidence in any proceedings for enforcing his security without payment of the stamp duty or any penalty in respect thereof, unless he had notice or, but for his negligence, might have discovered that the debenture was not duly stamped, but in any such case the company shall be liable to pay the proper stamp duty and penalty.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
Amendment agreed to.

moved to insert words in Clause 18 to provide that the register of debenture holders should be open to inspection free of charge to the shareholders and debenture holders of a company and to any other person on payment of a sum not exceeding 5s. He said that the reason he desired that persons other than debenture or shareholders should have this right of inspection was not far to seek. He knew personally that many a man who desired to raise money by a bill of sale had found that it would be too serious an injury to his credit, and he had, therefore, turned himself into a small limited liability company and had raised money by the issue of debentures. In the case of a bill of sale, an extract of it was sent to the county court or district in which the guarantor resided, and any person could inspect either the original document or the extract and take copies thereof on the payment of the sum of 1s.; and he thought they should also in this case make the right of inspection and the register of debenture holders as broad as possible. He could see nothing in his proposal which was likely to cause mischief, whilst on the other hand much good might come from it. He trusted the Government would see their way to accept what he claimed was a reasonable Amendment.

,

in seconding, urged that a man in business relations with a company should be permitted the opportunity, on payment of a reasonable fee, of seeing what mortgagees there were with claims prior to his own. He was curious to see what argument could be adduced against the Amendment. Amendment proposed—

"In page 13, line 41, after the word 'company,' to insert the words 'free of charge, and to any other person on payment of a sum not exceeding five shillings.'"—(Mr. Dunn.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

urged that it was unnecessary to give right of inspection of the names and addresses of the debenture holders. It was, he said, quite sufficient if there was power given to ascertain the amount of the debentures.

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thought this Amendment should be accepted. There had been frauds in connection with the issue of debentures, and publicity was the best available guarantee they could have against these. He, therefore, could not see why there should be any objection to publicity in this case. There should be means of knowing the names of the debenture holders. There were cases where creditors or prospective creditors had reason to believe that a company was not managed properly. It was quite easy to ascertain at Somerset House all the names of the shareholders, but if they also knew the names of the debenture holders real light might be thrown as to whether the debentures had been issued legitimately or for a fraudulent purpose.

hoped that the Amendment would not be accepted. The object of any person wanting to know the names of debenture holders could only be to carry on an agitation, or to call meetings for the purpose of initiating an agitation against the company. He could not understand those Paul Prys of commerce, who wished to look into names and not the facts and incidents which concerned the legal position of the company.

said that it was rather a late stage at which to introduce this Amendment. If it had been introduced earlier in the session it might have been translated into the Bill, but it was hardly fair to those with whom an agreement had been arrived at in order to get the Bill through, now to introduce an Amendment which was obnoxious to them. He thought that every man who had a realbona-fide interest in debentures must sympathise with the object which the hon. Gentleman had in view, but they were protected by this Bill. What was wanted was that those who traded with a company should have a knowledge of its financial position. Some information ought to be given as in the case of a bill of sale, but debentures were in a somewhat different category from bills of sale. They were issued to the public at large, it was true, with the view of raising money. It was provided by the Act of 1900 that full information should be given to the public as to the financial position of the company, and that was quite as much as the public were entitled to. He did not think that on the whole, from the company's point of view, which was the only point he was considering now, that a case had been made out for introducing this very severe, drastic, and far-reaching provision at this period of the session.

said that the object of the mover of the Amendment was evidently that the creditors of the company should be able to find out what the debenture charges against a company were and who held them.

said that, even if the Amendment were accepted, it would be open to a company to issue loans amounting to many times the value of the debentures in place of them; and he reminded the House that the object of the Amendment was to give the creditors an opportunity of judging of the stability of the company.

said that frauds were frequently committed by companies where the debenture holders and the shareholders were practically the same persons. It was necessary to know not only the names of the debenture holders, but something about them, and the interest which they were charging for the money lent. He was sorry that the Government could not accept the Amendment. Amendment negatived. Amendments proposed—

"In page 15, line 1, after the first word 'the,' to insert the word 'auditors.'"
"In page 15, line 2, to leave out the word 'auditors.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
"In page 15, line 7, at the end, to insert the words Provided that this section shall not apply to any private company.'"—(Mr. Markham.)
"In page 15, line 11, to leave out the words 'the nominator,' and to insert the words 'a shareholder.'"—(Mr. Berridge.)
"In page 15, line 13, after the word 'send,' to insert the words 'a copy of any.'"
"In page 15, line 14, after the word 'notice,' to insert the word 'thereof.'"—(Mr. Cave.)
"In page 15, line 16, at end, to insert the words 'Provided that if, after a notice of the intention to nominate an auditor has been so given, an annual general meeting is called for a date fourteen days or less after that notice has been given, the notice, though not given within the time required by this provision, shall be deemed to have been properly given for the purposes thereof, and the notice to be sent or given by the company may, instead of being sent or given within the time required by this provision be sent or given at the same time as the notice of the general annual meeting.'"(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
"In page 15, line 41, after the word 'the,' to insert the word 'general.'"—(Mr. Robert Balfour.)
"In page 16, line 10, to leave out the word 'seven,' and to insert the words 'one month.'"—(Mr. Markham.)
"In page 16, line 15, at end, to insert the words '(2) A private company shall not be required to forward or to file the report required under Section 12 of the Companies Act, 1900.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
"In page 16, line 36, at the end, to insert the words '(3) Any company which is a member of another company may, by minute of the directors, authorise any of its officials or any other person to act as its representative at any meeting of the latter company, and such representative shall be entitled to exercise the same functions on behalf of the company which he represents as if he had been an individual shareholder.'"—(Mr. Robert Balfour.)
"In page 17, line 12, after the word 'liquidator,' to insert the words 'appointed by a company.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
"In page 17, line 16, to leave out the word 'later,' and to insert the word less.'"
"In page 17, line 16, after the word 'fourteen,' to insert the words 'not more than twenty-one."
"In page 17, line 34, after the word 'act,' to insert the words 'as liquidator.'"
"In page 17, line 36, after the word 'inspection,' to insert the words 'either together with or without any such appointment of a liquidator.'"—(Mr. Berridge.)
Amendments agreed to.

moved to add the following new subsection—"(6) The provisions of this section shall not apply in the case of a winding-up for the purpose of reconstruction or sale to or amalgamation with another company where provision is made for payment of creditors in full within two months from the commencement of the winding-up. Provided that if the creditors are not so paid then the provisions of this section shall apply and the times mentioned in Subsection 1 hereof shall be reckoned as from the expiration of the said period of two months." He said that in Committee it was promised to consider this Amendment, and he was sorry to hear that the Government could not accept it. He, however, wished formally to move it in order that an explanation might be given why it could not be accepted. There were many cases where a company went into liquidation for the purpose of reconstruction or the sale of its assets with the main object of providing money for the benefit of the creditors and further capital for carrying on the business of the company, and it seemed to him and to people of good practical experience that that very object might be defeated if all the publicity which this section entailed applied. He thought it was necessary to add the proviso that if within two months the creditors were not paid the provisions of the section should apply. He begged to move.

,

although he thought the Amendment did not go far enough, seconded it. The clause, he said, was decidedly hostile to proposals which would secure a sale, an amalgamation, or the liquidation of a company. He really did not see that the Amendment would do any harm, and it would be particularly beneficial in facilitating the raising of mom and dealing with property in the best interests of the shareholders. Amendment proposed—

"In page 18, line 11, at the end, to insert the words '(6) The provisions of this section shall not apply in the case of a winding-up for the purpose of reconstruction or sale to or amalgamation with another company where provision is made for payment of creditors in full within two months from the commencement of the winding-up. Provided that if the creditors are not so paid then the provisions of this section shall apply and the times mentioned in Sub-section I hereof shall be reckoned as from the expiration of the said period of two months.'"(Mr. Berridge.)
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

said that all the arguments put forward by the mover and seconder of this Amendment had been considered, and it was found impossible to give effect to them as suggested. Where there was provision for debts and no real risk to the creditors the clause would in a sense be ineffective, for there would be no appli- cation by the creditors for another liquidator so long as they knew their debts were going to be paid. All that the section was intended to do was to give protection—it was not a great one—in the interests of the creditors by giving them an opportunity of going to the Court at their own risk and applying for the appointment of another liquidator. If the Amendment were inserted it would get rid of some of the main provisions inserted for the protection of the creditors. He therefore suggested that the Amendment should be rejected. Amendment negatived.

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moved to leave out Clause 32, which gives the Court power to grant relief to directors in certain cases. The Amendment, he said, raised an important point. The clause itself was in two distinct parts. Subsection 1 said that where a director was personally liable for breach of any duty imposed upon him by the Companies Acts and where that breach was caused by honest oversight, inadvertence, or error of judgment on his part, the Court might relieve him of responsibility. He did not object to that principle. He thought they must all admit that the duties of a director were complicated and that the present Act extended and still further complicated them. They could not expect a man leading a very busy life to make no mistakes, and it would be hard if in certain cases where a perfectly innocent mistake was made he should be held responsible in his own pocket. Still it was going a long way to say they must whitewash a man for an offence before he had committed it. They were. passing an Act which protected the public and the shareholders and which for their protection imposed certain responsibilities on directors, and in the same Act they said that any breach of duty, even though a loss was occasioned thereby, was not to make a director liable personally. He asked how far this was an extension of the present law and how far it was a statement of that law. It was well known that the Court could give relief in a case of honest negligence, and he did not quite follow how far this was to be an extension or only a statement of that law. The second part of the clause was much more important than the first. The first part related only to breaches of duty which were more or less formal acts, but the second subsection said that if a director was guilty of negligence or breach of trust the Court might relieve him if he could prove he had acted honestly and reasonably. He thought there ought to be a power of this sort in the Court. Where a man acted reasonably and fairly he ought to be relieved. But the present law in respect to the liability of directors for negligence was perfectly clear. It was not Statute law. It was case law, but it was perfectly clear. In order to prove that a director was responsible for negligence some moral obliquity had to be proved; negligence alone was not sufficient, fraud must be proved besides. Was this clause a statement of the law as it stood to-day or was it an extension of immunity to directors? If it was a statement of the law, its form was very objectionable, because the law was perfectly clear. As Lord Justice Buckley said in his book on Company Law, there had been no case in which a director had been held answerable for loss in respect of an innocent mistake. His objection to this clause was that, if it was a statement of the law it would introduce confusion into a law that was perfectly clear. On the other hand, if it was intended by the subsection to extend the immunities of directors, then it was a matter for the House carefully to consider how the law stood before making any such extension. In one very well-known case of a bank, in which the law was laid down by the House of Lords, Lord Macnaughten said as soon as the charge of moral obliquity was withdrawn the case was at an end. The question was whether this clause extended that immunity or not. His own opinion was that in that regard the law had gone quite far enough and rather too far in the way of protecting directors. They had to look not only at the honesty of the director but also to his competence, and in extending this immunity they should carefully consider how far it would take them. At present no director was responsible for his incompetence, a man might become a director of a company of a highly technical kind, and receive high fees and by his incom- petence cause the shareholders a considerable loss, and therefore, before any extension of immunity was allowed the matter ought to be very carefully scrutinised. Under these circumstances he hoped the Government would either explain the clause in a way satisfactory to him or else omit it. He begged to move.

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seconded the Amendment. Apart from the question of the form of the clause, he desired to protest against the method in which it was proposed to deal with this subject. They were told in the clause that under certain conditions the Court might come to the conclusion that a director ought fairly to be excused. If a man had broken the law by an act either of omission or of commission he should be tried by the law, but the House was being asked to say that although a director had broken the law yet he ought to be excused. On what ground ought he to be excused, and what was the tribunal that was to decide the matter? If Judges were to have the duty of deciding not on grounds of law but on moral grounds, a large number of conflicting decisions would be set up as to what a man ought to do and why he ought to be excused. The right to be excused would be as uncertain as the equity of the sixteenth century which was said to depend on the length of the Chancellor's foot. The day of Judge-made law was over. He was surprised that the Government should have introduced a Bill which contained a clause enabling a Judge to excuse a man for having broken the law. Judges were not the best tribunal to decide as to what was duty in the abstract, but only as to what was duty in the legal sense. He therefore hoped this clause would be reconsidered. Amendment proposed—

"In page 19, to leave out Clause 32."—(Mr. Hills.)

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said that men were made directors of companies for different reasons. A man might be an inventor, for instance, and it would be rather hard if, having been made a director became of his expert knowledge, he were held to be responsible for some great financial blunder in which he had no part, and against which he was never expected to protect the public. Or, they might have a man who was a great expert in finance, and who was put on the board purely because of that. There might be another branch of the business which he knew nothing about, which he was not expected to understand, and which was more or less left to other directors. So long as each director acted honestly in the special branch of the business allocated to him, he ought to have some protection. But he was not, of course, in favour of protecting the directors who grossly neglected their duty, and who showed that the trust which the public rested in them was misplaced. But the point was that they must not frighten away the best class of men. That would be a very bad thing. There was a certain kind of men who would be frightened away if they made the too stringent, but the very last to be kept away would be those men whom they did not desire to see made directors; they would put a premium upon that class of directors if they made the law so stringent as to keep everybody else off. They wanted, after all, to encourage the best men, and they must not frighten them away by extravagant provisions, the simple reading of which would prevent a nervous man from becoming a director, for the pay was not sufficient inducement to a man of that kind to go on. While he did not think they should insert provisions of that kind to frighten desirable men away, he wanted such protection of the public as was given in the Judicial Trustees Act. He wanted to insert something of that kind. He did not quite like the first sub-section, he candidly confessed. He did not like it when his attention was called to it first of all, and he liked it still less after consulting those responsible for introducing it. He had not quite liked to accept responsibility upstairs, but he had taken counsel since about it, and those who were responsible for the clause agreed that perhaps on the whole the words of the first subsection were too wide for the purposes of protecting the honest director, who had made a mistake through no fault of his own. It might be that a director of that kind was amply looked after under Subsection (2), taken from the Judicial Trustees Act, and which, no doubt by this time, had stood the test of judicial interpretation. The Speaker had put the question in such a way that he could move the omission of Subsection (1), and the hon. Gentleman would find that Subsection (2) on the whole offered fair and reasonable protection for the defence of the innocent and honest director whom it was desirable to encourage. If the hon. Gentleman would agree to that he should be very happy to assent to an Amendment.

pointed out that by the Act of 1890, every director was responsible for every statement in the prospectus, and made at the time he was a director, and he could only excuse himself if he could show not only hisbong fides, but that he reasonably believed the statements made in the prospectus. He approved Subsection (1) on the whole, and he ventured to press upon the right hon. Gentleman to keep the section as it stood. If they struck it out, and left in Subsection (2), they had this difficulty. In an action for misfeasance under the Act of 1890, a jury would naturally be inclined to be prejudiced against a director who had in any way allowed the plaintiff to be misled by a statement in the prospectus. In reference to Subsection (2), which was taken from the Judicial Trustees Act, and which dealt with other proceedings, he ventured to submit that there would be very considerable difficulty in dealing with the question of when the Court was to intervene in a case. They had not to assume the case of a man guilty of fraud or moral obliquity, but simply that of an expert who understood the technical part of the work, who had foolishly taken on trust the statements inserted in a prospectus, and who, possibly, had sat side by side with somebody else, and had not attended to what was being discussed.

said the argument used by the hon. Gentleman in support of his Amendment was the most extraordinary he had ever heard advanced in that House. It was that if a director, though he acted honestly and reasonably, was negligent, then, because the director was negligent, they were to set up a standard of what was negligent. How could a Court of law possibly set up a standard of what was negligent and what was not negligent? Who was to say whether a man was competent or whether he was not? He hoped the President of the Board of Trade would not accept the Amendment for the omission of Sub-section (1), because if a director had acted honestly and reasonably, what more could they require from a man of business? Everybody with any common sense knew what reasonable competency was, and, as the President of the Board of Trade had repeatedly pointed out, there were many public companies whose directors were appointed solely and wholly because of their knowledge of the particular branch of industry in which the company operated. If an engineer sat on the board it simply meant that it was because he had expert knowledge. He took no part as a director in the general administration of the company, but solely concerned himself with that with which he was thoroughly competent to deal. To penalise certain directors because in the opinion of some people others had failed to do their duty would be to act unreasonably. He hoped the Government would adhere to the clause as it stood.

said that by this Bill a fine amounting to £125 per day might be inflicted upon each officer and director for breaches of technical rules that might not be discovered until some years afterwards. Further, the director or officer might be quite ignorant of his breach, by which no one would be damaged, yet the director or officer for 100 days might be fined £12,500. Why should they not be allowed to go to the Court to express their regret, and obtain the requisite relief before anyone was damaged?

said there was this objection to the withdrawal of Sub-section (1), that the director who had made a slip would have to wait until proceedings were taken against him under Sub-section (2). Under Sub-section (1) he would be able to make anex parte application, and the Court could grant him relief; but under Sub-section (2), he would have to wait in terror, with this hanging over his head, until proceedings were instituted. He fully admitted that the words "honest oversight, inadvertence, and error of judgment" were some what wide, and the effect of the subsection might be to extend the law in a direction that was not desirable; but he hoped that the President of the Board of Trade would see his way to allow a director to take the initiative and make anex parte application for relief from the liabilities he had inadvertently incurred. A director could make application just in the same way as a Parliamentary candidate appliedex parte for relief if he had made a mistake during the election.

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hoped the right hon. Gentleman would retain the subsection. He appreciated entirely what had fallen from the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University and from the hon. Member for Mansfield; but manifestly on a question like this it was only fair that the directors themselves should have their say. It happened that there was a body of gentlemen of the highest position and integrity in the business world, the Institute of Directors, who seemed to think that directors required all the protection that could be given to them by this clause. Indeed they had circulated a short statement on this subject, asking for further protection than that granted. He did not press for the further measures for which they asked, but he did ask for the retention of what had been approved already upstairs. He urged the President of the Board of Trade to consider that the liabilities of directors were being increased by the Bill, and unless they were given increased protection, the class of men most wanted on the boards of public companies would be deterred from giving their services. Not only would men of high integrity and position be deterred but also experts in special departments. He would instance the case of an electrician who was properly put on a board of directors because of his special knowledge, yet could not possibly concern himself with the general management of the company's business: Was such a director to be made liable without the protection given him by this section and by the fist subsection? He did not understand the remark which had been made as to Judges being incompetent to deal with such a matter as this, and in fact, he altogether demurred to any such view. Judges would be well able to exercise the powers they were called on to exercise under the whole section. The House could not expect all directors to be competent any more than they could expect all lawyers to be infallible. He urged the President of the Board of Trade to retain Subsections (1) and (2), contending that they did not go beyond the requirements of the case.

also appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to maintain the clause as it stood. This Amendment would take away a considerable amount of protection given by the Bill. Very great responsibility would be thrown on the directors, and consequently there was all the more reason for giving them proper protection. Was it a fact that the highest legal luminary in the land had approved of this clause and that in fact it was a clause of his own creation? He believed this was a clause framed by the Lord Chancellor, and therefore it was rather strange they should be listening to people who told them it was not a proper one. It had further to be borne in mind that the clause had been recommended by the Committee on the Companies Act—a body of very eminent men consisting of all classes—who had all the evidence before them. He did not wish to enter into any argument with legal gentlemen, but he knew that any litigation in the future must be for their benefit. On the grounds that the clause was approved by the Lord Chancellor, that the responsibilities of the directors would be immensely increased, that the Companies Act Committee had unanimously approved it, he appealed to the President of the Board of Trade to adhere to his original decision and to pass the clause as it stood.

hoped the Governmen would adhere to the compromise which had been suggested by the President of the Board of Trade, as it would give all reasonable protection to the directors and would not involve the Courts and the directors themselves in very difficult questions. Subsection (1) negatived. Amendments proposed—

"In page 21, line 12, at the end, to insert the words 'and (c) have the name of the company and of the country in which the company is incorporated, mentioned in legible characters in all bill-heads and letter paper, and in all notices, advertisements, and other official publications of the company.'"
"In page 21, line 20, after the word 'certified,' to insert the words 'in the prescribed manner.'"
"In page 21, line 20, to leave out from the word 'translation,' to end of line 22."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
Amendments agreed to.

moved to add at the end of Subsection (6) in Clause 35, the words: "A share transfer or a share registration office would be deemed to be a place of business within the meaning of this section." He said that the object of the clause was to make clear the words "a place of business." He had asked some of his legal friends whether a transfer office in this country belonging to a company abroad would constitute a place of business, and finding that opinion on the point was divided he put the Amendment on the Paper. He thanked the President of the Board of Trade for having intimated his acceptance of the words, because they would enable the holders of shares in companies in South Africa and other parts of the world to obtain at Somerset House all the particulars relating to their investment. Amendment proposed—

"In page 21, line 22, at the end of Sub-section 6 to add the words 'a share transfer or share registration office would be deemed to be a place of business within the meaning of this section'"—(Mr. Markham.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

remarked that there were many companies having offices in this country who did their share business through Mr. Pierpont Morgan's offices, and the proposed Amendment would cause inconvenience to such American companies. Amendment agreed to. Amendment proposed—

"In page 21, line 32, to leave out from the word 'which,' to end of sub-section, and to insert the words 'by its articles (a) restricts the right to transfer its shares, and (b) limits the number of its members (exclusive of persons who are in the employment of the company) to fifty, and (c) prohibits any invitation to the public to subscribe for any shares or debentures of the company.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

said he was indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for the alteration. He did not believe in numbers in this connection, and he would have been glad if the number had been excised altogether. It would have worked very much better. He had no doubt that the legal advisers of companies would get round this particular clause, but he thought he had been fairly met and so he accepted it.

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said that when the Bill was in Committee he thought it was unnecessary to specify the numbers to which a private company should be limited. But the right hon. Gentleman took the other line, and in view of his greater experience in such matters he himself rather feared that he might be wrong. The President of the Board of Trade had in some previous incarnation attained to such a firm grasp of the principles of business, that he never felt quite comfortable when he was not in accord with the right hon. Gentleman's views. Having made inquiries in the City in regard to the matter he had arrived at the conclusion that the number fifty would probably cover every really private company, and that some restriction was probably necessary, because if no number were inserted in the clause the means of evading the law would be greatly facilitated. Amendment agreed to.

moved an Amendment to prohibit a private company from allotting or transferring any of its shares to a public company. He thought it was in accordance with the object of the Act if a private company were to transfer a large proportion of its shares to a public company it should be possible to secure in that way all the advantages of a private company in the matter of balance sheets.

,

in seconding the Amendment, said it would shut one of the doors which were left open to fraud under the provisions which would now be applied to private companies by this Bill. He would have liked the hon. Member's Amendment to have also prohibited the transfer of any of the shares of a private company to trustees to be held in trust on behalf of a public company. That would still further have prevented the evasion of the law. But if the hon. Member thought it would be inconvenient to accept that suggestion, he would not press it. Unless some such Amendment as that moved by the hon. Member was carried, this section might be used for the evasion of the Companies Acts altogether. Amendment proposed—

"In page 21, after the words last inserted, to insert the words, 'and (d) prohibits the allotment and transfer of any of its shares to a public company.'"—(Mr. J. D. White.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

,

in opposing the Amendment, said it would prevent a big steamboat company from taking shares in a company which owned a tug boat or a trawler. It would prevent a colliery company from taking shares in a waggon-building company, and it would, in short, prevent a public company from taking any sort of financial interest in smaller companies, though the public company might be interested in encouraging the business for which the smaller companies were formed. He believed if they were to do that they would be going the wrong way. To prevent a public company from exercising the rights of a private individual in regard to the acquirement of shares would be really to impose a limitation by law which he could not understand, and yet that was what must be the position if they prohibited the transfer of shares in the way proposed by the Amendment. He ventured to say that if the share lists in London were examined it would be found that there were dozens of cases in which one limited company held shares in other limited companies whether private or public.

said that although he sympathised much with what had been said by his hon. friend who moved the Amendment, he thought it was rather risky to accept one Amendment of this sort, dealing with such a complicated matter as company law, without full time being allowed to consider it. The Amendment in the form in which it had been moved did not appear on the Paper, and therefore he did not think it would be desirable at this stage to accept it. It might have a very far-reaching effect. He was not prepared to agree with all that had fallen from the hon. Member for the Everton Division of Liverpool, but there were legitimate occasions when the transfer of shares to a public company by a reallybona-fide private company might be indulged in. A private company which desired to take that course would be put out of count entirely by this clause. He did not think the Amendment was necessary for the real definition of a private company.

asked whether the clause could not be evaded by putting shares in the name of a nominee of the company. Question put, and negatived.

moved to insert words providing that wherever in the Companies Acts a minimum of sever members was required only two members should be required in the case of a private company. He said that a minimum of two in a private company should be sufficient. Amendment proposed—

"In page 22, line 17, at the end, to add the words '(4)Wherever in the Companies Acts a minimum of seven members is required only two members shall be required in the case of a "private company."'"—(Mr. Rawlinson.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

asked whether two instead of seven would be required to form a limited company in the future. He thought seven signatures were required to assure thebona-fides of the company.

said that all that would be necessary if the minimum were to remain at seven would be to get five-clerks to take a merely nominal interest in the concern. Question put, and agreed to. Amendments proposed.

"In page 22, line 34, after the word 'passed," to insert the words 'by a majority of shareholders of that class representing three-fourths of the capital of that class.'"
"In page 22, lines 34 and 35, to leave out the words 'by shareholders of that class.'"
"In page 22, line 36, to leave out the words 'passed and.'"
"In page 22, line 37, to leave out the words 'be a valid special resolution binding,' and to insert the word 'bind.'"—(Mr. Lupton.)
"In page 23, line 2, to leave out from the word 'company,' to the end of the clause, and to insert the words 'nor any other assurance company to which the provisions of the Life Assurance Companies Acts, 1870 to 1872, as to the annual statements to be made by such companies apply, with or without modification, if the company complies with those provisions.'"
"In the first Schedule, page 27, line 17, to leave out the word 'preference.'"—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
Amendments agreed to. Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read a third time."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)—put, and agreed to. I Bill read the third time, and passed

Factory And Workshop Bill

As amended (by the Standing Committee) considered.

Amendments proposed—

"In page 2, line 7, after the word 'employment,' to insert the words 'of women.'"
"In page 2, line 8, to leave out the words 'of women.'"—(Mr. Gladstone.)

Amendments agreed to.

moved an Amendment to provide that the number of days in each year on which one hour's overtime might be worked in laundries should be thirty instead of sixty, as proposed. Looking to the arduous character of the work, he did not think that women and girls employed in laundries should be allowed to work any overtime. He looked upon overtime as the great curse of trade, and he thought the House should take some steps with the view to its prevention wherever practicable. The working of overtime had a great deal to do with the question of unemployment, because if people would only work ordinary hours there would be employment for many of those who were unable to find employment. It would, no doubt, be argued that this would create a distinction in the conditions as between laundries and non-textile factories where in the present state of the law two hours overtime was allowed for sixty-eight days in the year. He held that the greater the amount of overtime allowed the greater was the opportunity for evading the law. He thought that Parliament should take steps to prevent women and girls working the long hours they now did. The hours of employment in laundries ought to be the same for women and girls as in the textile factories. He begged to move.

urged the necessity of the Home Secretary's taking this Amendment into his favourable consideration. The conditions under which women and girls were employed in some laundries were deplorable. Under this Bill they would be still permitted to work thirteen hours a day; and he thought it would be admitted that the longer the hours worked and the more overtime allowed the more opportunities were afforded for the evasion of the law. He thought the Home Secretary would be acting wisely if the number of days on which overtime could be worked was reduced from sixty to thirty. Amendment proposed—

"In page 2, line 15, to leave out the word 'sixty,' and insert the word 'thirty.'"(Mr. Gill.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'sixty' stand part of the Bill."

*

said he had much sympathy with the dislike of overtime expressed by the hon. Members who had moved and seconded the Amendment. But overtime was a necessary evil. He would be loth to sanction any more extended period of overtime than was strictly required by the circumstances of the case. The hon. Member for Bolton knew as well as he did that one of the reasons why the laundries were permitted for so long a period to escape from the operation of the Factory and Workshops Act was because of the special difficulties of the trade. Those special difficulties were notorious. This clause did not apply to young persons under eighteen years of age, but simply to women. This was a necessary concession to the trade. Under the influence of legislation the habits of the people might change, and consequently the necessity for overtime. As it was there were many laundries all over the country in which the work had to be done under pressure during certain seasons of the year, when no doubt the workers were extremely hard pressed. It was impossible to say how the difficulty could be overcome except by this provision in the Bill. He thought, however, that notwithstanding the particular circumstances which required overtime to be worked, it was not advisable that those employed in laundries should be in a worse position than those engaged in other trades under the provisions of the Factory and Workshop Act. The Amendment proposed that the overtime to be worked should be one hour for thirty days. The Act of 1901 allowed two hours for thirty days. The Government in this clause proposed that the overtime should be one hour for sixty days. He agreed that there was a certain danger as to inspection, but the Chief Inspector and assistant inspectors saw no difficulty in working the provisions of the clause. Under these circumstances he hoped his hon. friend would not press his Amendment.

*

said he would support his hon. friend the Member for Bolton if he went to a division. Some hon. Members interested in this question felt very strongly that inspection under the complicated provisions of the Bill would be impossible. In the case of another trade—the jam trade—the inspectors who thought that inspection could be made effective were proved to be wrong.

said that the difficulty of overtime in laundries was felt most acutely in places where the season was short, and from that point of view the laundries would suffer. He thought it would be much better for the laundries if the two hours overtime were allowed for thirty days.

*

said that that was not so. The Bill as it originally stood provided for the overtime of two hours being worked for thirty days, but the laundries made strong representations that they could not get their work done under that plan and one hour for sixty days was substituted.

said that the difficulty could be easily met by the laundries distributing their work over a larger number of people. There were plenty of public laundries which could employ a larger number of women and girls to overtake the work. It should be remembered that laundry work was the most arduous in which women and girls could be engaged. Parliament had passed vigorous laws in regard to the textile trade, but in that trade the women and girls were sweated not nearly so much as in the laundries.

*

THE UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT
(Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL, Yorkshire, Cleveland)

said that the whole purpose of this part of the Bill was to bring the laundries under the same restrictions as other trades. The only modification of the usual provisions of the Factory Act which was allowed by this provision of the Bill was that instead of working two hours overtime on thirty days, the employees would be allowed to work one hour overtime for sixty days.

said that he objected to continuous long hours of work, and it was time that the House should consider that twelve hours a day were quite sufficient for any woman or girl to work, taking into account the various atmospheres they had to endure. He really thought that the Home Secretary on reconsideration should withdraw the clause, and if he did not the House should go to a division.

supported the Amendment. In the district in which he lived he saw a very large number of girls who were anæmic and lacked development from the long hours they had to work. If nine and a half hours were considered a long enough day for a man, they were long enough for a woman. He could understand it if an inspector was present to see that the work ceased at the time, but experience went to prove that when the hours were fixed it was a very rare thing for women to get off at that time. The way in which it would work out was that in a great number of cases where the women were allowed to work for an extra hour four days a week—the sixty occasions on which they would be allowed to work for this hour would run consecutively, and that, in the hottest period of the year. The House ought to take exception to these long hours, and, if they claimed to represent a Christian people, put their foot down upon this scandal, and insist upon work being conducted in a manner consistent with the religion they professed. Question put.

AYES.
Abraham, William (Cork, N. E. )Gurdon, RtHn. Sir W. BramptonNolan, Joseph
Acland,Francis DykeGwynn, Stephen LuciusNorton, Capt.Cecil William
Acland-Hood, RtHn. SirAlex. F.Haldane, Rt.Hon. RichardO'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. HerbertHenryHammond, JohnO'Connor, John (Kildare, N. )
Balfour,Robert (Lanark)Harmsworth, R. L (Caithn'ss-sh)O'Connor, T.P.(Liverpool)
Banbury,Sir Frederick GeorgeHaworth,Arthur A.O'Doherty,Philip
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N. )Hayden, John PatrickO'Donnell, C.J.(Walworth)
Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh HicksHazleton, RichardO'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.
Beauchamp,E.Healy, Timothy MichaelO'Malley,William
Beck,A. CecilHelme, Norval WatsonPearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)
Benn, SirJ. Williams (Devonp'rtHenderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, WPearce,William (Limehouse)
Benn, W. (T'w'rHamlets, S. Geo.)Higham, John SharpPirie, Duncan V.
Berridge,T. H. D.Hobart, Sir RobertPower, Patrick Joseph
Bertram,JuliusHogan, MichaelRadford, G. H.
Boland,JohnHolland, Sir William HenryRainy, A. Rolland
Bramsdon,T. A.Holt, Richard DurningRawlinson, John FrederickPeel
Brodie,H. C.Horniman,Emslie JohnRea, Russell (Gloucester)
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)Idris, T. H. W.Reddy, M.
Buchanan,Thomas RyburnJardine, Sir J.Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Burke,E. Haviland-Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Redmond,William (Clare)
Buxton, Rt. Hn. SydneyCharlesKearley,Hudson E.Rees, J. D.
Campbell-Bannerman,Sir H.Kennedy,Vincent PaulRickett, J.Compton
Carlile, E. HildredKilbride,DenisRoberts, S. (Sheffield,Ecclesall)
Carr-Gomm,H. W.Laidlaw,RobertRobertson, J.M. (Tyneside)
Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnightLambert,GeorgeRobinson, S.
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. VictorC. W.Lamont, NormanRobson, Sir William Snowdon
Cawley, Sir FrederickLardner, James Carrige RusheRoe, Sir Thomas
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E. )Leese, SirJosephF. (Accrington)Runciman,Walter
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)Russell, T. W.
Clancy,John JosephLewis, John HerbertSamuel,Herbert L. (Cleveland)
Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham)Lloyd-George,Rt. Hon. DavidSamuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Cleland,J. W.Lonsdale, John BrownleeSeely, Colonel
Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinst'dLough, ThomasShaw, Rt. Hon.T. (Hawick B.)
Courthope,G. LoydLowe, Sir Francis WilliamSheehy, David
Cox,HaroldLundon, W.Shipman, Dr.John G.
Culinan, J.Lupton, ArnoldSinclair, Rt.Hon. John
Douglas,Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Lyell, Charles HenrySmeaton,Donald Mackenzie
Duckworth,JamesMackarness,Frederic C.Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S. )
Duffy,William J.Macnamara, Dr.Thomas J.Stewart,Halley (Greenock)
Elibank,Master ofMac Veagh, Jeremiah (Down, S )Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)
Erskine,David C.MacVe'gh, Charles (Donegal, E.)Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)
Esslemont,George BirnieM'Callum,John M.Thomson, W. Mitchell (Lanark)
Everett,R.LaceyM'Crae,GeorgeTumour,Viscount
Ferens,T. R.M'Hugh, Patrick A.Ure, Alexander
Ferguson, R. C. MunroM'Kenna, Rt.Hon. ReginaldVerney, F. W.
Ffrench,PeterM`Killop, W.Walton, Sir John L.(Leeds, S. )
Field,WilliamMarkham,Arthur BasilWaring, Walter
Findlay,AlexanderMarks, G. Croydon (Launceston)Waterlow, D.S.
Flavin,Michael JosephMeehan, Patrick A.Wedgwood,Josiah C.
Forster,Henry WilliamMenzies,WalterWeir, James Galloway
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryMicklem,NathanielWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)
Fuller, John Michael F.Molteno, Percy AlportWhitehead, Rowland
Gibb, James (Harrow)Mooney, J. J.Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)Morrell,PhilipWilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S. )
Ginnell,L.Morton,Alpheus CleophasWinfrey, R.
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohnMuldoon, JohnWood, T.M'Kinnon
Goddard,Daniel FordMurphy, John (Kerry, East)
Grant, CorrieMurphy, N. J. (Kilkenny, S. )TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardNapier, T. B.Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Gulland,John W.Nield, HerbertPease.

NOES.
Abraham,William (Rhondda)Bell, RichardByles, William Pollard
Baker,Sir John (Portsmouth)Bethell, SirJ. H (Essex, Romf'rd)Clough, William
Banner,John S. HarmoodBowerman, C.W.Clynes, J. R.
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Brace, WilliamCremer, Sir William Randal

The House divided:—Ayes, 179; Noes, 66 (Division List No. 455.)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)Rowlands, J.
Dickinson, W. H(St. Pancras, N.Jowett, F. W.Sears, J. E.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesKelley, George D.Sherwell, Arthur James
Du Cros, HarveyKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)Silcock, Thomas Ball
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs)Sloan, Thomas Henry
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)Maclean, DonaldSnowden, P.
Fenwick, CharlesMacpherson, J. T.Summerbell, T.
Gill, A. H.Manfield, Harry (Northants)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Glover, ThomasMoney, L. G. ChiozzaToulmin, George
Gooch, George PeabodyMyer, HoratioWalsh. Stephen
Gretton, JohnNicholls, GeorgeWalters, John Tudor
Harvey, W. E(Derbyshire, N. E.)Nicholson, CharlesN(Doncast'r)Wiles, Thomas
Hay, Hon. Claude GeorgeNuttall, HarryWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Hazel, Dr. A. E.O'Grady, J.Yoxall, James Henry
Henry, Charles S.Parker, James (Halifax)
Hills, J. W.Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Hunt, RowlandRichards, Thomas(W. Monm'th)Arthur Henderson and Mr.
Illingworth, Percy H.Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n)George Roberts.
Johnson, John (Gateshead)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Amendment proposed—

"In page 2, line 28, at the end, to insert the words 'The entry required to be made in the prescribed register by Subsection (4) of the said Section 60 as so applied shall, in the case of overtime employment under Paragraph (b), be made before the commencement of the overtime employment on each day on which it is intended that there should be such employment, and in reckoning the sixty days for the purposes of Paragraph (b) every day on which any woman had been employed overtime shall be taken into account.'"—(Mr. Gladstone.)

Amendment agreed to.

moved an Amendment limiting the special exceptions in the clause a period of two years. He did so because it was admitted not only that there ought to be an Amendment of the Factory Acts, but that the whole of the existing Acts should be consolidated. These Amendments were not intended by the right hon. Gentleman to be permanent, and the object of this Amendment was to extract a promise from the right hon. Gentleman that he would bring in a consolidating and amending Bill within two years. If the right hon. Gentleman could not do that they would be willing to extend the period of restriction to another year if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to promise that such a Bill would be brought within that period. What they desired to do by this Amendment was to prevent the matter being thrown over to another Parliament and being indefinitely postponed. He begged to move.

formally Recorded the Amendment. Amendment proposed—

"In page 2, line 28, at the end, to insert the words 'and shall remain in operation for two years only after the passing of this Act.'"—(Mr. Arthur Henderson.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

*

said this Amendment was moved in Committee and subsequently withdrawn by the hon. Member for Leicester. He suggested to the House that it would be better not to accept it. It was not desirable to impose a limit to the operation of the provisions of the Bill, when they could not foresee the precise conditions which would operate when the clause lapsed. He thought the argument adduced by his hon. friend with regard to the necessity of amending the Factory Acts was rather against the Amendment. The hon. Gentleman wished for a pledge, but they could not make pledges for two years hence. He did not know where he himself might be in two or three years time, or where this House of Commons would be. There might be another House of Commons. ["Oh!"] But he did not think that that would operate against the introduction of an amending Bill, because there were so many points which required to be dealt with that whatever Government was in office must undertake the responsibility. Therefore seeing that the prospects of an amending Bill were so good it would be better not to accept the Amendment. He did not like to legislate in this way for one particular industry, and it would be wiser to leave this and other questions to be dealt with in an amending Factory and Workshop Bill.

said that if his right hon. friend accepted the Amendment it would not pledge him absolutely to bring in an amending Bill within two years, because if it was found to be necessary to continue the operation of this Bill for a longer period it could be done by inserting it into the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. He would like very much to see a consolidating Act because he disliked more than he could say legislation by reference.

said they did not want to see the Government go out of office, but they certainly wanted to see the Factory Acts consolidated. If this time limit was put in it would to some extent enable the right hon. Gentleman to see his way to do something when the period expired.

hope dthe Amendment would not be pressed, because he did not think it would attain the object aimed at. He had been convinced against it by the short discussion which took place on the subject in the Grand Committee when the hon. Member for Leicester agreed to allow the Amendment to be withdrawn. Of course it was extremely desirable that there should be a consolidating Bill.

said that if this Amendment were accepted it would conconstitute a promise on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to bring the matter before the House two years hence. Two years seemed to him to be a fair period to test the provisions of this Bill, and that being so, it was reasonable to ask the right hon. Gentleman to give a promise that the Government would reconsider the matter in two years, and in that way give some indication that it was intended to do something. The provisions of the Bill were not ideal, and the Labour Members were desirous that something should be put in to show that these un-ideal conditions were not to go on for ever. It seemed to him that some assurance should be given that after two years had expired something would be done to encourage those who were engaged in looking after the welfare of the women. Then there would be no need to divide.

said that if an amending Bill were brought forward, the point raised by the Amendment would be considered. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved to leave out Clause 5. There was no necessity for any particular inspection in an establishment where laundry work was carried on as in these institutions. This was an old grievance, and therefore in the absence of his hon. friend he begged to move.

formally seconded the Amendment. Amendment proposed—

"In page 3, to leave out Clause 5."—(Mr. Sloan.)
Question proposed, "That Clause 5, stand part of the Bill."

*

said he could not accept this Amendment, because the effect of it would be to leave the laundries of these institutions altogether free from inspection. He thought laundries should be on the same footing as other factories and workshops. Of course there must be exceptional, treatment because such institutions were not organised as factories and workshops. Did the hon. Member wish to relieve all the convent laundries in Ireland from inspection? It would be better they should be under the same sanitary and other regulations as commercial undertakings carrying on similar trades. He hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.

asked with regard to Subsection (d) whether he was right in concluding that where this application was not made these reformatory institutions would be subject to inspection under the Act.

*

said he desired to move the omission of Subsection 2 of this clause in order to substitute a new subsection. He had no desire to say anything which would impart heat into this debate or raise religious controversy. His interest was that of a large body of persons carrying on the business of laundries in the constituency he had the honour to represent. They had assured him that if this Bill passed in the form of the compromise arrived at upstairs between the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State and the hon. Gentlemen below the gangway, their interests would be prejudicially affected, as they would be unable to compete with the institution laundry. On the face of the Bill as amended in Grand Committee at the instance of the Home Secretary it would appear to be intended that under Subsection (4) any scheme which the Home Office would be asked to approve should not be less favourable than the provisions of the Bill. The House would remember the Opposition which was aroused to precisely similar words when introduced into the Workmen's Compensation Bill of 1897 by the trade unions who objected to contracting out. Hon. Members who now claimed to represent labour in the House should be equally slow to accept the words which were now proposed and which would cause differentiation between workers in outside laundries—made subject to the detailed provisions of the Bill—and those in institution laundries who might and probably would be less favourably dealt with under a scheme so far as hours and conditions of work were concerned, while outside workers would be handicapped in many respects and their work rendered less secure and probably less remunerative. Any scheme formulated by those institutions, although apparently harmless, might be disastrous from the point of view of other laundries. He felt it his duty to say that those on whose behalf he spoke had very grave misgivings regarding the attitude of the institutions in the matter of this compromise. They remembered the past history of the Nationalist Party in that House—with what vehemence they had always opposed inspection and how determined they had always declared themselves to be to any form of factory inspection and control of religious institutions. The opinion of those he represented—he did not give it as his own opinion—was that they were satisfied that the inspection provided for under the scheme would be illusory, but that, of course, would entirely depend on the Home Office, and whether they took care to do their duty. The Home Secretary had recognised in his speech the difficulties which laundries had to encounter with regard to a special season trade, for instance in seaside places, but he desired to point out to the right hon. Gentleman other difficulties, and substantial ones which trade laundries in towns had to contend with which entitled them to special consideration. Message to attend the Lords Commissioners. The House went. And, having returned, Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to a number of Bills (see page 758.)

Factory And Workshop Bill

As amended by the Standing Committee, again considered.

*

,

continuing his speech, said when his speech was interruped he was giving an illustration of how those outside commercial laundries might be affected under Subclause (b). By Clause 2 definite hours of work were fixed in the morning and evening not to exceed thirteen hours. That might operate harshly upon outside laundries, because the work was divided into so many different departments, and until one department had done its work the others could not commence. [Cries of "Agreed."] This provision had been added in Grand Committee as a compromise and had been accepted under conditions which had been frankly stated by the right hon. Gentleman, and he could understand the great disappointment which the Labour Party must have felt when they heard this announcement. In 1895 the present Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced a Bill which contained proposals to place all laundries on an equality, but he had to withdraw them on account of the pressure placed upon him by hon. Members from Ireland, without whose support the Government majority at that time was not sufficient. On behalf of a very deserving industry which had to work under very great pressure he asked the House seriously to consider whether this exemption would not operate most harshly. He hoped that all laundries would be placed upon the same footing.

,

in seconding the Amendment, said he desired to see this provision applied to institution laundries just the same as to other laundries. It was highly desirable that the difference in the treatment of the two cases should be as small as possible. He could not help thinking that Subsection (2) contained far too great exceptions, and he was afraid that there was a danger of the clause becoming wholly illusory. The Amendment would put these institution laundries on practically the same footing as other laundries. It would prevent the contracting out which was possible under the clause and secure an absolute uniformity of system in all institution laundries. Amendment proposed—

"In page 3, line 24, to leave out Subsection 2 of Clause 5, and insert the words, '(2) In laundries attached to or forming part of an institution to which this section applies the following modifications of the law relating to holidays and notices shall have effect:—(a) Subsection 3 of Section 35 of The Factory ant Workshop Act, 1901, shall not apply, and the following provisions shall be substituted it lieu thereof:—A notice of every holiday o half-holiday must be forwarded during the first week in January to the inspector for the district, and unless the notice has been so sent cessation from work shall not be deemed to be a whole holiday or a half-holiday. Provide, that any such notice may be changed by a subsequent notice sent in like manner not less than twenty-four hours before the holiday or half holiday to which it applies. (b) The managers of the institution shall, not later than the fifteenth day of January in each year, send to the Secretary of State a correct return in the prescribed form, specifying the names of the managers and the name of the person (if any) having charge of the institution under the managers, and such particulars as to the number, age, sex, and employment of the inmates and other persons employed in the work carried on in the institution as the Secretary of State may require, and shall, if any requirement of this paragraph is not complied with, be liable to a fine not exceeding five pounds."—(Mr. Nield.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out at the end of line 5, in page 4 stand part of the Bill."

said that as an old Home Secretary he might be allowed to say a word or two on this point. It was quite true that in 1895 he attempted to bring these laundries within the scope of the Factory Acts and that he was obliged to with draw his proposal. Looking back upon the past, he thought it would be admitted that this was a large step in advance. If the House agreed to these proposals they would cover at least nine-tenths of the ground. In dealing with a delicate matter of this kind it was always necessary to allow for susceptibilities which, though one might not completely share them, were legitimate and natural. The main object of this legislation would be attained by the clause which his right hon. friend had introduced, and he urged Members who desired to go a step further to be content with what they could get, and to be assured that a very long step was being taken in the direction of really effective supervision.

*

said he would like the right hon. Gentleman to tell the House what meaning he attached to the words "not subject to inspection by … any Government Department." They were not clear, and different explanations had already been given of them. One matter which had not been alluded to by the mover of the Amendment deserved attention. In Committee words were inserted to provide that any scheme made under the provisions of the Bill should be laid before both Houses of Parliament for forty days before coming into operation. He pointed out that that control was now illusory in the latter part of a session. Therefore they could not always trust to having security under these words. He had no doubt that the Secretary of State would do in regard to this matter what he did now in regard to Orders which were subject to a similar provision. That was to say, he would, as far as possible, lay the Orders before the House at a period of the session when they would have the freedom of criticism they were supposed to enjoy. The Archbishop of Canterbury, speaking of institutional laundries of all classes, had said that a very large number of the institutions were prepared to go further than the provisions of the Bill, and that the provisions as passed in another place were the minimum with which they ought to be content. The words inserted in the Standing Committee had whittled down the provision in this case, and, although he felt that it was difficult to ask the House to reject the judgment of the Committee, he thought that those who had always fought this question on principle must point out that what the Archbishop of Canterbury regarded as the minimum had been whittled down.

said he had some experience of this question during the time he was at the Home Office. He did not wish at present to go into the difficulties which his predecessor, the late Lord Ritchie, encountered in endeavouring to carry through this House a Bill dealing with laundries, including those connected with institutions. He thought it was very desirable that the measure should be passed. At present the inspection was only voluntary, but there was no doubt that the inspection which he was enabled to bring about two or three years ago had paved the way for further reform. What was done then had shown the institutions that inspection by factory inspectors was not so formidable and so much to be dreaded as they had thought. He advised his hon. friends to accept this Bill as far as it went, in the hope that it would lead to a stricter Bill in future.

said that the Amendment of the Home Secretary was only accepted in Grand Committee because of the warning that its rejection would mean the loss of the Bill. The Home Secretary stated that he had made an agreement with certain hon. Members which compelled him to bring forward this Amendment. It was no exaggeration to say that that was the only argument the right hon. Gentleman used in favour of the Amendments. That being so, those who valued the Bill for other reasons could not imperil it by objecting to the Amendment. He did not think it could be said with justice that the Standing Committee were convinced that the Amendment was in itself desirable. If the Committee had been left free to deal with it as they liked, he had no doubt it would have been rejected. He could not support his hon. friend's Amendment, because it went further than anything suggested in the Standing Committee. He thought the undertaking that a scheme under the Bill would be laid before both Houses of Parliament with power to reject it was a reasonable compromise, taking into consideration the difficulties in dealing with this question. While he would vote against the Amendment, he thought Subsection (b) unsound in principle. and he was sorry that the Government had proposed it.

*

said the noble Lord had accurately represented what took place in the Standing Committee. Undoubtedly Subclause (2) was a concession to those who had made very strong representations. He did not think there was any necessity at present to repeat the arguments for putting it in the Bill. The House knew that the Bill could not pass into law if this subsection were omitted. He knew well the great interest the mover of the Amendment took in certain laundries in the division he represented.

*

*

said he did not question that the hon. Member had made abona fide representation on behalf of his constituents. But a deputation from the Launderers' Association which waited on himself expressed themselves as satisfied with Clause 5. That clause really gave nine-tenths of what was wanted. At the present time these institutions were not inspected at all. They had an absolutely free hand in regard to hours and conditions of work, and when they submitted voluntarily to inspection they were not bound to accept the advice or the warning given by the inspectors. This clause would do an immense deal of good, and fulfil the object desired. First of all, it would at least bring in the inspector, though his powers were confined in certain cases to interrogation of an inmate, or any number of inmates, before the manager. That, however, would enable the inspector to judge whether any suspicions he might have formed were real, and he could then obtain an order for private interrogation from the Home Secretary. The Bill brought in provisions as to the fencing of machinery, ventilation, certificate of fitness, notice of accidents, and the hours of labour. He maintained that this clause gave what the Government wanted. There was a compromise, bat he did not come "with bated breath, and whispering humbleness" to apologise for it. It was a very good clause, and would effect the object desired. The Government had been taunted with making an undue concession to the Catholics. He denied that, and insisted that they were perfectly right to make that concession under the circumstances. He desired to say in justice to the hon. Gentlemen below the gangway opposite, and to the noble Lord the Member for Chichester, that they had advanced a long way from the position which they had taken up in former years. They had made great concessions. The concession he had made would not impair the value of the clause. Any laundry in an institution which was now subject to inspection by the inspector of factories would continue to be as now, and would not come under the operation of this clause. Of course if the institution was a reformatory school it would come under Clause 6.

said he wished to thank the right hon. Gentleman for the concluding words of his speech, which he thought were extremely fair. He also desired to thank him for the way in which he had met those whom he represented in this matter. He might be permitted to add that if the right hon. Gentleman had made a concession it should be recognised that they had made far greater concessions from the point of view from which they looked at this question. On the last occasion on which the subject was debated the position they took up was an objection to the inspection at all of these institutions. Now they had departed from that position, and had admitted inspection in every one of the institutions. That was a very large concession on their part to make. Subsection (d), which the right hon. Gentleman had put into the Bill, and which was especially objectionable to the right hon. Gentleman opposite—

*

said he did not especially object to that subsection. His objection applied to the whole Bill.

said he did not complain of the right hon. Gentleman, whose attitude on this matter had always been perfectly fair. Subsection (d) was a very small matter. They asked that in a comparatively small number of those institutions of a very particular character the inspection should take a slightly different form from that made in the other institutions, such as charitable and reformatory institutions. This subsection dealt with what were known as rescue homes and Magdelene asylums. Every fair-minded man would admit that there were circumstances connected with those rescue homes which made it a difficult thing to carry out inspection as in ordinary institutions. There was, for instance, the difficulty of maintaining discipline among the inmates, and all they asked for was that an exception should be made in their case, and that the inspection should take place in the presence of one of the superior managers. In a very few cases the inspector could not go in and interrogate the inmates separately unless the Home Office were convinced that the general provisions of the Act were being violated, in which event the Home Secretary would give a special order. In view of the attitude which they had taken up in the House on this subject for years, he submitted that the claim they made to-day was a most moderate one.

*

asked leave to withdraw his Amendment, and added that he hoped that whenever one of these schemes was formulated for the approval of the Secretary of State, the right hon. Gentleman would always have in his mind the probable injustice to outside commercial laundries and would in that spirit revise and carefully settle the proposals. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Amendments proposed—

"In page 4, lines 6 and 7, to leave out the words 'schemes made under the foregoing provisions of this Act,' and to insert the words 'any scheme when so approved.'"
"In page 4, line 9, to leave out the words 'or schemes have,' and to insert the word 'has.'"
"In page 4, line 10, to leave out the words 'all or any of the schemes,' and to insert the words 'the scheme.'"
"In page 4, line 11, to leave out the words 'or schemes.'"—(Mr. Gladstone.)
Amendments agreed to. Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be read a third time," put and agreed to. Bill read the third time, and passed.

Transvaal Loan (Guarantee) Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."

said he only desired to say that if they on that side of the House did not challenge a division it was not to be supposed that the opinions which he and his hon. friends expressed on the Second Reading of the measure were either modified or withdrawn.

said that in supporting the Bill he regarded it as a wise and just measure of assistance and reparation to the young Colony. The Government had only carried on the policy pursued by the Party opposite in guaranteeing this loan to the Transvaal. He wished to ask whether the Under-Secretary for the Colonies could give them any information as to the nature of the legislation which was to be proposed by the Transvaal Government with the view, apparently, of carrying on the Indentured Labour Ordinance. As far as he understood the reports telegraphed to this country, it was proposed to re-enact the Chinese Ordinance of 1904 for a period as long as might be required for the existing contracts. If that were so, it would be a piece of legislation obviously in violation of the pledges which had been given in that House over and over again by His Majesty's Government to the effect that no Ordinance of that kind would be permitted after the expiration of the present one, and in violation of the express terms of the Letters Patent granting a constitution to the Transvaal. That Constitution contemplated that after a year from the time of the first Transvaal Parliament, the Ordinance of 1904 must be abrogated, and that no Ordinance of the same kind should be brought forward, and that acceleration of the repatriation of the Chinese would take place. A great deal of faith had been placed by the supporters of His Majesty's Government in that House, and out of it, on those pledges and the terms of the Constitution. He was quite sure that Ministers had not the slightest intention of going back from their assurances so given; nor did he suggest for a moment that the Transvaal Government had any idea of such a thing as not abiding by the terms of the Constitution. The Transvaal Government had accepted the Constitution on the terms stated, and they were men of honour prepared to carry out their pledges. At the same time, the reports telegraphed to this country had caused considerable uneasiness, and, therefore, he asked the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, who so far, had given no information to the House on this subject, to give them what information he possessed.

said he was compelled to say a few words on this subject before the Bill passed its Third Reading. For very nearly a month past the leading papers in the country had given currency to the statement that the Transvaal Government was engaged in bringing forward legislation having for its object the continuance of the contracts whose period would not have expired on 31st March, which was the time limit set by the Letters Patent when the whole system of indentured labour in that Colony should cease and determine. The Leader of the Opposition in the Transvaal Legislative Assembly, Sir George Farrar, had told them that that Assembly had before them such proposals. If that were true it was in direct violation of the enactment. The words of the Letters Patent were very distinct. They asserted that within one year of the meeting of the Transvaal Legislature their rules and regulations in regard to the system of Chinese labour should cease and be determined. Not only were the worth very precise but the promises made by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer were in accordance with the Letters Patent. They had told them that the Government would not sanction any laws which laid down conditions of service in which there was anything of a servile nature. But it appeared that these contracts in regard to Chinese labour in the Transvaal were to continue. He hoped that the promises made by the Government would be carried out so that this horrible system of Chinese labour would not be continued. The British people were just as determined as ever about the system and they wished to get rid of it.

said that he had not yet received any information as to this legislation, and until he did so it was obviously impossible to form an opinion upon it. A year's interval was allowed in which the Transvaal Government should have an opportunity of taking stock of its position and in order that they might put forward any other proposal they chose in regard to their labour system. The Letters Patent provided also that any legislation passed by the Transvaal Government would be reserved for the sanction of the Secretary of State, and nothing had been done which was inconsistent with anything which had been stated by the Secretary of State. What was the policy of the Transvaal Government on this subject of Chinese labour? They were a responsible Government, independent of us, and perfectly free to deal with this subject. Any proposal they made in regard to it would not be outside the scope of their authority. He understood their policy to be repatriation on the expiry of indentures. Some 15,000 Chinese would be gone before Christmas and steady shipments would take place during the two years following, until at the end of a period of three years from the time the last Chinaman was landed in the country the whole system would be absolutely wiped away. If that was their policy, he thought it a very reasonable policy. He would be very glad if the Government found it possible to accelerate that process of departure, but he never contemplated the wholesale repatriation of the Chinese in a batch. An interval would elapse between the period fixed by the Letters Patent for the termination of the Ordinance and the time when the last of the contracts would expire, during which a constantly-diminishing number of Chinese would remain in the country. What was proposed to be done with those Chinese? It could hardly be suggested that they should have all sorts of restriction removed, so that they might move about at liberty throughout the whole country; still less that all restrictions on their employment should be put an end to. It was obvious, then, that there must be some legislation governing them.

asked the right hon. Gentleman to explain the words of the Letters Patent which laid it down that within twelve months of the meeting of the Transvaal Legislature the system of labour arising from the Chinese Ordinance should cease.

said it was perfectly obvious that, the Ordinance falling to the ground, the system of labour under it ceased. What he was suggesting was that another Ordinance might be brought forward by the Transvaal Government, and that Ordinance must be judged when it arrived in relation to all the circumstances on its merits.

asked whether the Government would regard a re-enactment of the existing Ordinance as a compliance with the terms of the Constitution.

said he did not know what the Ordinance was to be, but he did not think it followed that the Ordinance that was being considered by the Transvaal Government would be in the same terms as that which now existed. On the contrary, he had good reason to believe that that point had been prominently borne in mind by those who were concerned. He did not know whether it would be possible for him to make any statement before Parliament rose, but if he had any further information, he would take an opportunity of giving it to the House. They were now going to separate and none of them were sorry, but after all they would meet again, and Parliament would be able then to hold the Ministers strictly accountable for their conduct. This matter had occupied the country greatly in the past, and had by no means passed out of the minds of the working classes who felt that their position had been undermined by Chinese labour. He only now desired to acknowledge the attitude taken up by the right hon. Member for East Worcestershire in not re-opening on this occasion the issues that were raised on Monday last. He commended the Third Reading of the Bill to the House as part of the policy of reconciliation and reconstruction which both Parties had been pursuing since the war came to a close; and because it was the only means by which the Transvaal Government could be insured in regard to vital matters affecting their labour system. The Government had no reason to believe that there was not adequate security for the guarantee; and the objects for which the money was to be lent were worthy, laudable, lucrative, and satisfactory.

thought the House ought to have a more definite assurance than the right hon. Gentleman had given them in regard to the new Ordinance. It was a question which involved the honour and credit of the Home Government. The mass of the working classes in this country objected to the existing Ordinance because under it a particular class of workmen were subjected to conditions which they regarded as conditions of slavery. Was that objection going to be found in this new Ordinance? He could not understand why the information had not been obtained, unless it was that the session would soon be at an end, and the House would have no opportunity of considering the matter until the Ordinance had become an accomplished fact.

said that was an unfair suggestion that the Government were keeping back information from the House in order that they might proceed to do something which they would not dare to do if Parliament were sitting. He would endeavour to find out what were the general terms of the Ordinance. He had good reason to believe that many of the objectionable conditions had been removed. Bill read the third time, and passed.

Employers' Liability (Insurance Companies) Bill

As amended (by the Standing Committee) considered.

moved to leave out Paragraph (ii) of Clause 1. He did not make this Motion in any spirit of hostility to the mutual liability associations of employers, but because his acquaintance with these matters taught him that a danger existed, if this paragraph was left in the Bill, of discouraging such associations. Every prudent man who had a liability in connection with his employees would effect an insurance against it, and therefore it was the duty of the House in dealing with this Bill to see that every encouragement was given to these employers mutual liability insurance associations and at the same time to safeguard the people against bogus associations. As the matter stood at the present time there was nothing to prevent insurance touts or insurance mongers going about among small employers in various districts and proposing to them that instead of paying the rates charged by insurance companies to cover these risks they should form mutual associations and thus save some of the premiums they would otherwise have to pay. The result of such proposals if acted upon would be that the premiums paid would be inadequate to cover the risks, the funds available would not be sufficient to meet the claims, the workman would have to have recourse to law to recover against the employer, the employer not having the resources to meet the claim would fail and the workman would not get that compensation for his injuries which Parliament had said he should have. The consequence would be that the employer would be ruined and the workman might have to end his days in the workhouse because in his maimed condition he would be unable to gain his livelihood. He did not wish to throw any stone at employers, because he believed that on the whole, taken throughout the country, it was their desire to give adequate compensation to workmen injured while in their employ. The argument had been put forward that workmen desired that the associations of employers should be encouraged for the purpose of meeting their liabilities, and it was therefore deprecated that words should be introduced into this clause which would in any way hamper or discourage that spirit among employers. But by moving the omission of this paragraph he desired to obtain from the Board of Trade some assurance that they would prevent bogus mutual associations from being formed, not by employers, but by others who would make tools of the employers. He was anxious not only to do that, but to go a step further, and have such regulations as would ensure that these mutual associations had adequate funds, and that application should be made to the Board of Trade before such associations could be formed. This was not a matter, as some people thought, of small importance; indeed, in the Standing Committee they were very much exercised about it, and he, therefore, raised the question again that evening in the hope that, even at the eleventh hour, the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would be able to give him a more definite and business-like assurance, so that the fears which found expression in his Amendment might be removed. Amendment proposed—

"In page 2, line 1, to leave out Paragraph (ii)."—(Mr. Claude Hay.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

said that this Bill did not affect the mutual associations, and for the very best of reasons, that they had never been suspected in any way of being anything but thoroughly sound and solvent, and they had not exhibited any symptoms or desires which rendered necessary any interference. All the big trades of the country had their mutual associations—for example, the mining associations of Great Britain, which represented nine-tenths of the mine-owners of the Kingdom. Then again, they had the shipowners, a good many of them at all events, who had their own mutual associations. He had received through Members of that House representations from all parts of the country pointing out that these mutual associations should not be subject to the provisions of the Bill. He cordially agreed with that view. It was the object of this Bill that they should anticipate and be prepared against the upspringing of mushroom companies. But in connection with these existing mutual companies there had never been a single word of suspicion against the method in which they carried on their operations. On the contrary, the House knew perfectly well that they represented strong bodies of first class financialstatus, and to call upon them to make annual statements of their accounts to Parliament, and to subject them to actuarial overhauling every five years, would be to harass them and to prevent their carrying on the most useful work in which they were engaged. The danger which they had to apprehend in the future was the upspringing of mushroom companies and the combining of insurance offices into what would be neither more nor less than a trust which would clear off the ground any competition in the shape of mutual companies. That would be one of the worst turns which they could do to working men, who were indirectly affected. Therefore, when he remembered that he had received during the last six months representations from important Members of that House representing societies like those in Birmingham Sheffield, and other centres, and had received important deputations which represented chiefly the employers' federations, all pointing out that the obligations of this Bill, if imposed, would be a most serious and harassing interference with the work of these mutual associations, he could not for a moment consider this Amendment. As he had said, what they desired to do in future was to protect the country against the upspringing of mushroom companies; but it would be an offensive thing to suggest for a single moment that these mutual companies, which were in existence everywhere, which did not apply to the public for money, and which carried on their own work mutually, should, forsooth, simply because they were passing a Bill, be subject to its provisions. There was neither call nor justification for it. Although the hon. Gentleman had said that he had dealt with the Amendment in an airy manner in Committee, yet he had given him then, as he did now, full and complete reasons why they could not include mutual associations in the Bill. Had they attempted to do so they would not have been successful in carrying the Bill. But apart from that consideration altogether, he took it that it would be unjust to include them, and he certainly could not see his way to accept the Amendment.

said he could not understand the motive of the hon. Gentleman in moving the omission of the Sub-section. Certainly no instance could be pointed to in which these mutual societies had not fulfilled their aims or had failed in the ignominious way which the hon. Member seemed to suggest. If the hon. Gentleman were able to point to a case of that kind he could understand the Amendment, but it was admitted there was no such case. The society mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary was the Birmingham Mutual Assurance Society, which had been in existence for some years—almost as long as the Workmen's Compensation Act. During the whole of that time the Society had given entire satisfaction, not only to the Board of Trade but to the employers and also to the workmen of the district which the Society covered. He thought he was right in saying that they dealt with something like 200,000 working men in the district; they were going on most successfully, and their funds were in such a condition that there was perfect security to all concerned. If the parties interested, namely the employers and the men, were quite satisfied with these societies, he could not see what was the motive of the hon. Member in submitting the Amendment. One argument which the Parliamentary Secretary used was a great one. Why should a number of men, two or three or half-a-dozen, or twenty, or 100, be prevented from establishing a mutual society among themselves? It was well-known that the tendency at the present time was to form these mutual associations. When it was remembered that the compensation was becoming a very serious burden on employers, who had to expend hundreds and thousands a year in compensation, he thought that ought to be sufficient inducement to employers to see if they could not in some way minimise the responsibilities coming upon them. They could do so by mutual societies, which were fectly safe and sound, and satisfied the Board of Trade. He could not see why they should be prevented from doing so. The existence of such societies for many years had proved that they could be carried on upon a perfectly sound and safe basis, satisfactory to everyone, and he could not see what objection there could be to their existence. Therefore, he did not understand why the hon. Member, who professed such good feeling towards employers, should for a moment take away the protection which would be afforded them by the Bill.

hoped the Amendment would not be pressed. He quite sympathised with the object which the mover of the Amendment had in view, viz., the prevention of the springing up of mushroom companies. But he would point out that the Amendment would strike at some very large mutual insurance institutions. The Durham and Northumberland Coal Owners' Association had a mutual insurance of this kind, conducted through a joint committee. They never had any litigation. The workmen on one side and the owners on the other met together, with a chairman, and managed to do all their business, and nobody ever heard anything about it. He could not for the life of him see what benefit would result from the Amendment. Besides trade institutions of this kind, there were certain religious denominations which insured amongst themselves. For instance, the minister insured his servants, the chapel keeper and the like. If in the case of such institutions they demanded that £20,000 should be put down, in order to secure theirbona fides, that would simply be to strike a blow at their existence. No doubt the omission of the section would safeguard the public from bogus institutions which insured their own workmen as a blind, but carried on business amongst workmen elsewhere, who were not connected with the institution. He and his colleagues as workmen would have been the first to have jumped upon a clause of this kind if they had thought it would be to the detriment of the men they represented. He, therefore, trusted that the Amendment would be withdrawn and that the Government would stick to their clause.

said the Secretary to the Board of Trade had somewhat misrepresented his remarks. He had not stated that he wished this provision to apply to existing mutual associations nor did he say anything about their being brought within the scope of the Bill. What he said was that the danger was in regard to associations which might be created hereafter in consequence of the passing of the Workmen's Compensation Act. It was the small industries and the small people he wished to protect, and the remarks of the Secretary to the Board of Trade were no answer to his case. This question of insurance under the Workmen's Compensation Act was a very serious matter. He was quite content with what had passed, although he felt that the right hon. Gentleman might make some regulations which would frighten evil-doers. He asked leave to withdraw his Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Bill read the third time, and passed.

Irish Land (No 2) Bill

As amended, was considered.

,

in moving an Amendment to Clause 1, explained that the object of the Bill was to enable mining rights reserved to the Land Commission under the Act of 1903 to be disposed of by the Estates Commissioners. He now wished to amend the clause by providing that before borings or experiments were made to ascertain the value of the mining rights the occupier should be given at least one month's notice by registered letter. Amendment proposed—

"In page 1, line 13, after the word 'persons,' to insert the words 'after having given to the occupiers of the land in respect of which the right is to be exercised at least one month's notice by registered letter, addressed to him at his last-known place of abode, and subject to the provisions of Sub-section (4) of the said Section 13 as to compensation, enter upon the land and—'"—(Mr. Cherry.)
Question proposed. "That those words be there inserted."

said he should like to say a word or two by way of precaution. He agreed that the speculator should get fair and reasonable terms to encourage him to work the land, but he ought to make some provision by means of a deposit which would be answerable for damages. Every mining adventurer was a very hopeful man who believed that every plot of land he desired to purchase was glistening with jewels and diamonds. Mining was a very hazardous speculation, and while he agreed that short leases should be given they should be renewed if the venture turned out prosperous. Any man who entered upon a venture of this kind ought to be assured of considerable profit if successful, because he had to take the whole of the risk of failure. He would not have dreamt of making those observations in regard to legislation affecting England where mining was understood, but the case was totally different in Ireland where the Commissioners knew nothing about mines and minerals. While the adventurer ought to be able to get his lease cheaply, and ought to be encouraged in every way, he thought some element of caution was necessary. The Board of Works had been in the habit of granting mining rights for gold and silver in Wicklow. When such rights were granted in Australia or America they got only a very small plot of land, because it was known that the country was rich. He did not think, however, it was known that in county Wicklow the Government had given up miles of territory to adventurers who had never worked the land and had done nothing to develop it. The plot of land given should be comparatively small in extent, and there should be an undertaking on the part of the Land Commissioners that if the venture was successful they would not look too closely at the profits.

said that these proposals referred more to the preliminary borings and other operation which were necessary before the lease was granted. As for damages, the Land Commissioners would be responsible. Every precaution would be taken to see that the leases were properly prepared, and that the mining rights were leased to the best advantage, with a view to developing the country as much as possible. The Government would provide that leases should be made subject to the appoval of the Judicial Commissioner and they would be bound to get all the expert evidence they could. The Estates Commissioners were anxious that the mining rights should be developed to the advantage of the country, and as soon as this Bill became law every effort would be made to see that the work was carried on in the best possible manner. Question put, and agreed to.

moved an Amendment to provide that the Commission should publish by advertisement in a newspaper their intention to make a lease or sale. He said it was desirable that people in the neighbourhood should have the advantage of knowing what was proposed to be done so that they might have an opportunity of making an offer. Amendment proposed—

,'In page 1, line 23, at the end, to add the words '(5) Not less than one month before any disposition is made under this section of any right the Commission shall publish, in a newspaper circulating in the locality where the right is to be exercised, a notice stating their intention to make a lease or sale, as the case may be, and inviting offers from any persons wishing to exercise the right.'"—(Mr. Cherry.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted." Question put, and agreed to. Bill read the third time, and passed.

Vaccination (Scotland) Bill Lords

Order for the Second Reading read.

,

in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said it had come down from another place where it had been discussed and approved. Early in the year an assurance was given by the President of the Local Government Board that an Amendment in the law relating to vaccination in England would be made. During the discussion at that time he himself undertook on behalf of the Government to take steps for putting the conscientious objector in Scotland on the same footing as the conscientious objector in England. The result of such legislation in England had been that there had been an increase in vaccination. The action taken in England was founded on the Report of the Royal Commission which inquired into the subject, and there was every reason to believe that what had been done in England had been attended with consequences which were for the good of the community. In Scotland there was not the same indulgence shown to the conscientious objector. All that was proposed to be done by the Bill was to put the conscientious objector on exactly the same footing in both countries. The only alteration made in the other House was one suggested by Lord Balfour of Burleigh, and accepted by the Government, to provide for the registration of the statement made by the conscientious objector. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Sinclair.) Question put, and agreed to. Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—(Mr. Sinclair.)

Public Health (Scotland) Amendment Bill

Order fir the Second Reading read.

,

in moving the second reading of this Bill, said it was a very beneficial measure, and it also had come down from another place. There were three clauses in the Public Health (Scotland) Act which the Bill sought to amend. These clauses had been found by the local authorities to be so restricted in their character that they had defeated their own object which was to encourage the notification of infectious diseases. In recent years there had been an increased interest in the curative treatment of consumption, and it was thought by those competent to judge in the matter that an incidental benefit which would be obtained by the relaxation of the provisions of the clauses in the Public Health Act to which he referred in that the local authorities would be encouraged to take steps to bring consumption within the range of the Notification of Diseases Act. This Bill had been cordially welcomed. There had been no suggestion of opposition to it in any direction; it was greatly desired by the medical profession and the public health authorities in Scotland. Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and agreed to. Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—(Mr. Sinclair.)

Qualification Of Women (County And Town Councils) (Scotland) Bill Lords

As amended; read the third time, and passed.

Qualification Of Women (County And Borough Councils) Bill Lords

As amended considered; read the third time, and passed.

Cabs And Stage Carriages (London) Bill

As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered.

said he did not propose to move the Amendments of which he had given notice, empowering railway companies to make reasonable regulations for the admission and control of cabs within their stations, as they were fully discussed and decided in Grand Committee. But he desired to move the rejection of the clause because, in his opinion, the abolition of the privileged cab system at the railway stations in London would inflict great inconvenience on the travelling public, and especially on those who arrived at the great railway termini on Sundays, and by the night and continental trains. For a long time the railway companies had found it necessary to have a nucleus of cabs for the purpose of meeting the requirements of travellers. He said a "nucleus of cabs" because it was well-known that the railway companies had only a limited number of cabs, and that outside cabs were called in as the railway cabs were exhausted. For all practical purposes it had been found that the privileged cab system had enabled the companies to dispose satisfactorily of the passengers arriving at night and by continental trains, and for that reason he regretted that an attempt was being made to abolish a practice which in the past had been a very great convenience to the travelling public. If the provisions in the clause were carried out, railway companies would not have proper control over the cabs entering the station yards, and they would not be able to see that the cabs within the yards were fit, well horsed, and well driven by respectable and qualified drivers. The companies thought they ought to have the control of the station yards, which the House must remember were not public streets but the property of the companies. He urged this, not with any view to the benefit of the railway companies, but only on the ground of public convenience. As a director of the South Eastern Railway, he could say that that company had actually tried the open cab system from 1883 to 1887, but were compelled to return to the privilege system because they could not get their customers conveyed from the station to their homes comfortably. The General Manager of the company, in giving evidence before the House of Commons in 1889, said that with the open system they could never got cabs when they wanted them to wait for special trains, or for the continental trains arriving at three o'clock in the morning. The cabmen preferred to go to the theatre on the chance of picking up a fare there. After a trial of three years and seven months, the company had no alternative but to give up the open cab system and return to the privi- lege system. There was another point which he would urge. Under the privilege system the companies had a greater control over the passengers' luggage. It was urged in Committee that if the luggage was placed in a wrong cab it would be taken to Scotland Yard, but even if it were, it involved time and inconvenience in recovering it, but under the privilege system the luggage was brought back immediately to the station. He moved the omission of the clause, because of the inconvenience it would cause to the travelling public, and because the railway companies would, under it, have no control over the cabs. Amendment proposed to the Bill—

"In page 1, line 23, to leave out Clause 2."—(Mr. Akers-Douglas.)
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the end of line 3, on page 2, stand part of the Bill."

said that in supporting the Motion of his right hon. friend, he would state that in order to save time he did not intend to move the Amendments standing in his name lower down on the Paper. In discussing what course they would pursue, he and his friends had come to the conclusion that in the event of the omission of the clause being negatived, they should take no further part in the proceedings, because they felt that the public would soon see that they would be the losers by the arrangement proposed. In Committee, believing that they owed a certain duty to the public to provide an official conveyance to take passengers on arrival at the railway termini in London to wherever they wanted to go, they had moved certain Amendments in what he considered was a proper spirit. But they found no support for them, and if the sense of the House was also discovered to be against them, they would not proceed further, but allow the future to show whether they or their opponents wee wrong. The reasons which animated him in supporting the omission of the clause were very simple. In the first place, it was quite open to everyone to say that it would be wise to try this experiment. One man's opinion was just as good as another's, and no man could foretell the future. But there had been some experience. The South Eastern Railway Company had made the experiment of the open cab system fifteen years ago for four years, which he thought was ample time for an experiment, but the company were obliged to go back to the old s ate of things, although the experiment was made under the most favourable circumstances. The South Eastern Stations at Charing Cross and Cannon Street were in the very centre of London, where there was always a certain number of cabs to be got; but the drivers preferred passengers who were only going a short distance to fares who desired to go to Outer London. As to the sums received by the railway companies from the privileged cab owners, it was only sufficient to cover the expense which the railway companies were put to. In Committee an hon. Member had said that he did not understand why the companies should receive any charge at all for cabs going into the yard. He had made inquiry and found that the Great Northern Railway Company received £560 from the cab owners which was spent in the employment of an inspector and five constables, to regulate the cab traffic in the station.

asked if it was not the fact that the Great Northern Railway Company would have to engage these constables to regulate the cab traffic, whether the cabs were privileged or not.

said the companies desired to give facilities to their passengers and to do it in their own way; and there was no obligation on their part to maintain order in the station. There were some 1,700 cabs in London provided by privileged proprietors on the understanding that they would be allowed to go into the railway stations, and if at the end of two or three years the right hon. Gentleman found his experiment was not a success, who was going to start privileged cabs again? because according to this Bill, the Home Secretary could come down and upset the whole system. It was easy to destroy a system, but it was not so easy to set one up. There was a clause of this Bill which it was difficult to understand, but the Under-Secretary informed them that for the future railway companies were not to supply any vehicle of their own, unless it was previously ordered.

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explained that what he had said was that the railway companies must either supply vehicles which had been ordered, or else licensed to ply for hire.

said there was not much in that interruption, because anyone as long as he complied with certain conditions was entitled to ply for hire. The railway omnibus had been a great convenience, but under the Amendment it could not be run any longer under the present conditions. Supposing an hon. Member ordered an omnibus, but he did not arrive and another hon. Member did arrive, and asked a porter if there was an omnibus. The porter would say "Yes, there is one," but under this Bill in future the railway companies would not be allowed to let that omnibus to the passenger who had arrived, or to use their own omnibus in the way they liked. He did not wish to allude to the unpleasant question of strikes, but he pointed out that in the event of one, it would not be possible for the railway companies to provide vehicles of their own, and the public would be absolutely at the mercy of the Cabmen's Union. That Union would be all-powerful in regard to ingress into and egress from London. Ingress and egress would be stopped unless people had private carriages. He was not sure that that was not at the bottom of the agitation for the abolition of the privileged cab system. The clause had been pitchforked into the Bill, the idea of which was to licence taximeters on cabs. He did not know that the cabmen would benefit by that, but that was their lookout. For these reasons he had great pleasure in supporting the Amendment.

said he quite appreciated the moderate and reasonable tone of the hon. Baronet who, with himself, re-recognised that this was not a Party question. The only question was what was fair to the cabman on the one hand and what was fair to the public on the other, and what they had to find was the solution which would be equitable to both. The hon. Baronet had dealt with several questions. Amongst other things he said that they proposed to take away the stations. There was nothing in this Bill to justify that contention. All they were proposing was that the Home Secretary should have power to limit the companies' charges for the cabs which went into the railway stations and that cabs should also be subjected to ordinary regulations if they plied for hire in the stations. Under the proposed system, it would be necessary for the cabmen to organise a supply of cabs. It was urged that the experiment had been tried twenty years ago at Charing Cross and that it had failed. At that time there was no organisation among the cabmen. There was no Cabdrivers' Union. They could not organise for one station; they might organise for all stations. He had listened attentively to his right hon. friend opposite, and he was quite sure that he could appreciate the services which he had always been willing to render to the Home Office, but perhaps in his speech there was rather an echo of the directors' board than of the office which he had so worthily filled. Personally, he was absolutely free from any influence which might be brought so far as the railway companies were concerned, and he acted impartially from the public point of view, and from the point of view of what was fair to the cabmen. He thought that his right hon. friend had put the case fairly, but the Government wished that this experiment, and it was an experiment, should be tried. It was not a new thing they were seeking to do. It was a matter that had been vexing the authorities for fifteen or twenty years, but the circumstances had been such that one Government after another had refrained from touching it. Now what did they find? Not only did the Committee in 1895 report in favour of the abolition of the privileged cab system, but the Committee which sat last year was absolutely and entirely in favour of that proposal. And this Bill received the strong support not only of the great majority of his friends on that side of the House, but of the hon. Members for South-east Durham, Bristol and Marylebone. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite had not made out a case against the Bill. Power was retained under the Bill, in the event of the system breaking down in any particular case, to exempt the station where the breakdown occurred from its operation. That power would certainly only be used where necessary. But he recognised that there was an element of uncertainty in the matter, and they were bound in any event to look after the interests of the public. The cabmen served the public, and deserved to be considered. He asserted from what he had learnt, that the cabmen in London would recognise the responsibility upon them. Even if they thought they would not get a job they would turn out at any hour of the night, and they would do loyally all they could to supply the public with cabs whenever they were wanted. He had a great belief in the capacity of the London cabmen to find a job when a job was going. The London cabman had a sort of instinct for finding a job, and he did not think that he would fail in this particular instance, He had only to remind the House that they had got the open system in Palace Yard. He had been in that House twenty-seven years, and he had frequently used cabs at night. Save on rainy nights or on the occasions of exceptionally heavy divisions, he had never seen any paucity of cabs, even in the small hours of the morning. Hon. Members who had sat up there until eight o'clock in the morning no doubt had found that there were plenty of cabs waiting to take them home. He hoped that the House would pass the Bill practically as it stood.

said the cabmen of London would be very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for bringing in this Bill. He thought the two Committees which sat in 1895 and in 1906 had not considered the circumstances which would prevail after this Bill was brought in in regard to the taximeter question—not that the taximeter question would affect the subject of the privileged cab at railway stations very much. Everybody knew the reason why there was a large number of cabs in Palace Yard, namely, that Members like the right hon. Gentleman paid the cabman more than his fare. When the taximeter came into operation they could not possibly tell what amount extra the poor cabman would get. In certain stations no doubt this system would be a success, but in other stations it would have the opposite effect, but as yet it was an unknown quantity. He was extremely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for bringing in the Bill in the interests of the public, but he believed that the public would be amply satisfied as far as the stations were concerned with the present system. Therefore, as far as that part of the Bill was concerned it was really brought in in the interests of the cabmen. He sincerely hoped that the system would be a success, and he was very glad that the right hon. Gentleman had seen his way to undertake that if any instance of a breakdown occurred he would make an exception of the station concerned.

appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the clause. There was no question that the present system at stations had worked well. This question of the privileged cabs began with the strike of ten or twelve years ago. Previous to that time the privileged cab system was confined to the very unworkable plan of confining the system to one station for particular cabs, and one station only. That was the reason why the experience of 1887 was so valuable. In the strike of ten or twelve years ago those who drove privileged cabs incurred the wrath of cab drivers, because it was those privileged cabs alone which gave any kind of service to the public during the struggle. That was the genesis of this trouble. The system of privileged cabs which had been established since that time had worked well. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that if this experiment did not work well in the case of some particular station he would issue an order declaring that the Bill should not apply to that station. He thought that showed the weakness of the right hon. Gentleman's argument. It was impossible to make the system a success if they allowed a privilege to one station and not to another. The privilege system was working very well both in the interests of the public and, as he believed, of the cabmen, and once it was broken down they could not go back to it. He regarded the experiment which was being made by the Home Secretary as a very dangerous one.

said that under Subsection (1) the Home Secretary had power to allow the railway companies to charge 1d. or 2d., or whatever sum was deemed reasonable, for allowing cabs to go into their stations. He protested against that meanness on the part of the companies who were bound to regulate the traffic whether the cabs were privileged or not. He hoped the Home Secretary would not continue to allow these companies to charge cabmen for coming into their stations. If the companies had to provide their own cab service they would not get it at anything like the present cost. The charge made for cabs entering a railway station was a wholly unjustifiable one, and at a later stage of this Bill he would move an Amendment providing that no such charge should be allowed.

who spoke as a Member of the Committee which considered this matter, said he would support the Government. He thought the open system should be given a fair trial. The Committee came to the

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)Everett, R. LaceyLever, A. Levy(Essex, Harwich)
Acland, Francis DykeFenwick, CharlesLevy, Sir Maurice
Alden, PercyFerens, T. R.Lewis, John Herbert
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. )Flavin, Michael JosephLough, Thomas
Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Fletcher, J. S.Lyell, Charles Henry
Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Fuller, John Michael F.Lynch, H. B.
Barnard, E. B.Gibb, James (Harrow)Macdonald, J. M. (FalkirkB'ghs)
Barnes, G. N.Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)Maclean, Donald
Barry, RedmondJ. (Tyrone, N. )Gill, A. H.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
Beauchamp,E.Gladstone, Rt. Hn. HerbertJohnMacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)
Beck, A.CecilGlover, ThomasMac Veigh, Charles(Donegal, E. )
Bell, RichardGooch, George PeabodyM'Callum, John M.
Benn, SirJ. Williams(DevonportGrant, CorrieM'Crae, George
Berridge, T. H. D.Gulland, John W.M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)
Bertram, JuliusGurdon, RtHn. SirW. BramptonMaddison, Frederick
Bowerman, C. W.Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Markham,Arthur Basil
Brace, WilliamHarmsworth, Cecil B. (Wor'cr)Marks, G. Croydon(Launceston)
Bramsdon, T. A.Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.Marnham, F. J.
Brodie, H. C.Haworth, Arthur A.Menzies, Walter
Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)Hazel, Dr. A. E.Micklem, Nathaniel
Byles, William PollardHedges, A. PagetMolteno, Percy Alport
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.Helme, Norval WatsonMorgan, G. Hay (Cronwall)
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Morrell, Philip
Causton, Rt. Hn. RichardKnightHenry, Charles S.Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Cawley, Sir FrederickHigham, John SharpMuldoon, John
Cheetham, John FrederickHobart, Sir RobertMyer, Horatio
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Hobhouse, Charles E. H.Nicholls, George
Clough, WilliamHogan, MichaelNicholson, CharlesN. (Doncast'r
Clynes, J. R.Holland, Sir William HenryNolan, Joseph
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Holt, Richard DurningNorton, Capt. Cecil William
Collins. Sir William J. (S. Pan-cras, W.)Horniman, Emslie JohnNuttall, Harry
Idris, T. H. W.O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinst'dIllingworth, Percy H.O'Connor, John (Kildare, N. )
Cowan, W. H.Jardine, Sir J.O'Kelly, James(Roscommon, N.
Cox, HaroldJohnson, John (Gateshead)Parker, James (Halifax)
Cremer, Sir William RandalJohnson, W. (Nuneaton)Pearce, Robert (Staffs. Leek)
Crooks, WilliamJones, William (CarnarvonshirePearson, SirW. D. (Colchester)
Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)Jowett, F. W.Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central)
Dobson, Thomas W.Kelley, George D.Richards, Thomas(W. Monm'th
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessKilbride, DenisRichards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n
Edwards, Clement (Denbigh)King, Alfred John (Knutsford)Rickett, J. Compton
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)Laidlaw, RobertRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Elibank, Master ofLambert, GeorgeRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Erskine, David C.Lamont, NormanRoberts, John H. (Denbighs. )
Esslemont, George BirnieLehmann, R. C.Robertson, SirG. Scott(Bradf'rd
conclusion that there was a grievance, on the part of both the drivers and the public. and the public, and that a change was necessary. He thought the right hon. Gentleman had met the railway companies in a fair way, because by Substation (5) it was provided that nothing should affect the power of the companies to exercise control of their railway stations as to the number of cabs to be admitted. Question put The House divided:—Ayes, 176; Noes 24 (Division List No. 456.)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N. W. )Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Robinson, S.Steadman, W. C. Weir, James Galloway
Roe, Sir ThomasStewart, Halley (Greenock) White, J, D. (Dumbarronshire)
Rowlands, J.Strachey, Sir Edward Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)
Runciman, WalterStrauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Wiles, Thomas
Samuel, HerbertL. (Cleveland)Summerbell, T. Wills, Arthur Walters
Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wilson, HenryJ. (York, W. R. )
Scott, A. H. (Ashton under LyneTennant, SirEdward(Salisbury)Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)
Sears, J. E.Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Seely, ColonelToulmin, George Winfrey, R.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick, B. )Ure, Alexander Wood, T. M'Kinnon
Sherwell, Arthur JamesVivian, Henry
Simon, John AllsebrookWalsh, StephenTELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Sinclair, Rt. Hon. JohnWalters, John TudorWhiteley and Mr. J. A.
Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S. )Waring, WalterPease.

NOES.
Acland-Hood, RtHn. SirAlex. F.Fell, ArthurNield, Herbert
Arkwright, John StanhopeForster, Henry WilliamRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Eeclesall)
Balcarres, LordHamilton, Marquess ofSalter, Arthur Clavell
Banner, John S. HarmoodHarris, Frederick Leverton Valentia, Viscount
Baring, Capt. Hn. G(Winchester)Harrison-Broadley, H. B.
Cavendish, Rt. Hon. Victor C. W.Hills, J. W.TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir
Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-Hunt, RowlandFrederick Banbury and
Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham)Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamMr. Rawlinson.
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.Magnus, Sir Philip
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

moved to omit from the operation of Clause 3, carriages drawn by four horses. At present there were four-horse coaches running out of London, and he thought they should be exempted. The Amendment did not touch the object of the Bill, and by accepting it they would preserve what he thought hon. Members were anxious to preserve, namely, four-horse coaches on the road.

seconded the Amendment. Amendment proposed—

"In page 2, line 27, after the word 'carriages' to insert the words 'not drawn by four horses.'"—(Sir F. Banbury.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

said he was sure all hon. Members sympathised with the proposal of the hon. Baronet. He would be glad to accept the Amendment if it were necessary, but four-horse coaches would not come under the clause. The clause was necessary because it had been found that inadequate and inferior motor 'buses were plying for hire outside London and running into London. Under the law as it stood these motor 'buses were not subject to the law which applied to motor 'buses running in London. Unless this clause was passed, London would be worse protected than at present in regard to the worst type of motor 'buses. It was not possible to accept the Amendment. As the hon. Baronet knew, additional horses were sometimes put in a coach to drive to Kew, and if the Amendment were adopted, they would be excluded from the operation of the clause.

said that within the police area they had already to put on numbers. His objection applied, for instance, to those who ran outside the police area, say, to Kew. He was quite aware that the powers were only permissive, but once a regulation of this kind was passed there would be exemptions.

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said his hon. friend was wrong. These coaches would not have to be exempted. They would be excluded unless the clause was applied to them. And there was not the slightest intention of applying the clause to them. With all respect to the hon. Baronet, he preferred the law which he was advised was the law rather than the law which the hon. Baronet thought was actually the law. Amendment negatived.

said he wished to ask Mr. Speaker's ruling on an Amendment which appeared on the paper in his name. The Orders of the Day were run through very rapidly, and at the time when this Bill was reached he was having his dinner. He hoped that was not an unreasonable thing, having regard to the labours they had been undergoing during the last two or three days. He hastened as well as he possibly could, but when he returned to the House he found that his Amendment, which was the first, had been reached and passed over. He had arranged with a Ministerialist to move the clause standing in his name, but it was not allowed. He wanted to know whether he could move that clause even now, though the Amendments to the Bill had been gone through. He submitted that it did not matter when a new clause should be moved.

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The clause must perish in order that the hon. Member may dine. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time." Question put, and agreed to.

said he did not propose to divide, but he hoped that the assurances which the right hon. Gentleman had given would be made effective; and that he would notify them to the Scotland Yard authorities. Bill read the third time, and passed.

Rule Committee Bill Lords

Order for Committee read, and discharged.

Bill withdrawn.

Navigation Works (Ireland) Bill

Order for Second Reading read, and discharged.

Bill withdrawn.

Education (Scotland) Bill

Order for Second Reading read, and discharged.

Bill withdrawn.

Coal Mines (Eight Hours) (No 2) Bill

Order for Second Reading read, and discharged.

Bill withdrawn.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the order of the House of 26th July last, adjourned the House without Question put.

Adjourned at three minutes before Eleven o'clock.

Private Bill Business

Metropolitan Water Board (Charges, Etc) Bill

Lords Amendment, in pursuance of the Order of the House [19th August] considered, and agreed to.

York (Micklegate Strays) (Re-Committed) Bill Lords

Ordered, That in the case of the York (Micklegate Strays) (Re-committed) Bill [Lords], Standing Orders 84, 214, 215, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into consideration.—( The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

Bill, as amended, accordingly considered.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be nowread the Third time.—( The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

Bill accordingly read the third time' and passed, with Amendments.

Standing Order (Private Business)

moved a series of Amendments to Standing Orders. He explained that the alteration of Standing Order 5 was intended to place electric generating stations under the same regulations as Gas-works; with regard to Standing Order 36a, that had, he said, been practically in force a considerable time, Standing Order 38, while in respect of No. 98 the change had become desirable in view of the fact that the meetings of the Committee of Selection and the Standing Orders Committee clashed sometimes, and the Chairman of the former Committee found himself in consequence of the increasing work of this Committee unable to attend. The other Amendments were mainly consequential, but he would be happy to give any explanation that might be asked for. He begged to move.

asked if the Amendments were to be puten bloc or separately, there were one or two on which the House ought to have some information?

said the practice of his predecessor was, if no objection were taken, to put themen bloc, but if any objection were raised to any particular Amendment, then he put only those down to that Amendment. He proposed to follow that course to-day.

asked if these Amendments had appeared on the Paper before, and if they had been considered by a Committee or otherwise, and were all right.

They have been considered in the ordinary way, and I certainly can say they are all right. They have been on the Paper two or three days. If it is desired to leave over any till tomorrow, I am quite willing. 29b I may say, merely means that the rural district council will have the plans deposited with them. That is pressed for by the Department of Agriculture. With regard to 98, the Chairman of the Committee of Selection finds it almost impossible to attend the meetings of the Standing Orders Committee.

said he was satisfied with regard to 29b, but as regards 98 he would prefer it should stand over till the next day.

Certainly. Standing Order 5 was read, and amended, in line 4, by leaving out the word "or," and by inserting after the word "Disease," the words "or station for generating electrical energy." In line 8, by leaving out the first word "or," and by inserting after the word "Hospital," the words "or generating station," and by leaving out from the word "constructed," to the end of the Standing Order. Standing Order 15 was read, and amended, in line 5, by leaving out the words "on specified lands." Standing Order 29 was read, and amended, in paragraph (b), line 1, by inserting, after the word "Borough," the words "or any Rural District." In paragraph (d), line 3, by leaving out the words "and with the clerk of the district council." Standing Order 33 was read, and amended, in paragraph (1), line 2, by leaving out the words "at the Local Government Board," and by inserting, after paragraph (1), the following new paragraph— "(2) Of every Private Bill relating to England and Wales, at the Office of the Secretary of State for the Home Department and at the Local Government Board," and by leaving out paragraph (7). In paragraph (10), line 1, by leaving out from the word "Bill," to the end of the Paragraph, and inserting the words "relating to England and Wales which in any manner affects education or educational endowments, or alters the boundary of any county, borough, or urban district, or affects the incidence of any local rate out of which any educational expenditure is payable, at the Office of the Board of Education." Ordered, That on or before the thirty-first day of December copies of the estimates of expenditure for any permanent works proposed to be executed by any municipal corporation, district council, joint board or joint committee, or other local authority in England or Wales shall be deposited at the Private Bill Office, and at the Office of the Board of Trade or of the Local Government Board, as the case may require. The estimates shall be in the following form, or as near thereto as circumstances may permit:—

Estimates for Permanent Works.
£s.d.
Purchase of land and casements
Buildings (specifying generally their nature)
Reservoirs, filter beds, &c.
Tunnels, embankments, dams, etc.
Trunk mains and main sewers
Other mains, pipes, sewers, and sewage disposal works
Other works grouped with regard to the probable life of the works
If any moneys are required to be borrowed to meet any excess of expenditure previously authorised by Parliament, the Board of Trade, or the Local Government Board, there shall be deposited with the said estimates a statement of the purposes and reasons for the borrowing. Together with the said estimates there shall be deposited a statement showing the following particulars with respect to the district of the local authority, that is to say: (a) area of the district; (b) population according to the last census; (c) rateable and assessable value according to the last valuation list; (d) rates made in the district during the last preceding financial year; (e) the sum of the balances of outstanding loans contracted by the local authority; and (f) the amount of the outstanding loans to which the limitation of section two hundred and thirty-four of The Public Health Act, 1875, applies. Resolved, That this Order be a Standing Order of this House. Standing Order 38 was read, and amended, in page 66, lines 33 and 34, by leaving out the words "as regards London, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and." In line 35, by leaving out the word, "(outside London)." Standing Order 84 was read, and amended, in line 4, by leaving out from the word "deposited," to the end of the Order, and inserting the words "at every office at which it was deposited under Standing Orders 33 and 34, or would be required to be deposited under those Orders if it had been originally introduced as amended in Committee." Standing Order 172 was read, and amended, at the end, by adding the words— Copies of the estimates and statements deposited in accordance with Standing Order 36a shall be laid before the Committee for the purposes of this Order. Standing Order 187 was read, and amended, in line 4, by leaving out the word 'or." In line 5, by inserting after the word "disease," the words "or station for generating electrical energy." In line 7, by leaving out the first word "or," and inserting, after the word "Hospital," the words "or generating station." In line 8, by leaving out from the word "constructed," to the end of the standing Order.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)

Lanarkshire County Council Order Confirmation Bill Lords

Considered; to be read the third time to-morrow.

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to:—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 14) Bill; Local Government Provisional Order (No. 15) Bill, with an Amendment; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 12) Bill, with Amendments.

Petitions

Weekly Rest-Day Bill

Petition from London and other places, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

Board Of Education

Copy presented, of Supplementary Regulation for Secondary Schools in England, 1907 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Returns, Reports, Etc

Higher Education (England And Wales) (Application Of Funds By Local Authorities)

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 2nd August, 1906; Mr. Mc Kenna]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 325.]

Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 20th August; Mr. Burns]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed [No. 326.]

Army

Copy presented, of Memorandum on the Militia and Yeomanry [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Army

Copy presented, of Report of the Advisory Board, London School of Economics, on the First Course, at the London School of Economics, January to July, 1907, for the Training of Officers for the Higher Appointments on the Administrative Staff of the Army and for the Charge of Departmental Services [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Government Departments (Contracts)

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 20th June; Sir Howard Vincent]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 327.]

Treaty Series (No 24, 1907)

Copy presented, of Supplementary Agreement between the United Kingdom and Sweden for the Mutual Surrender of Fugitive Criminals; signed at London 2nd July, 1907 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899

Return ordered, "of all the Draft Provisional orders under the Private

Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, which in the session of 1907 have been reported on by Commissioners together with the names of the Commissioners; the first and also the last day of the sittings in each group; the number of days on which each body of Commissioners sat; the number of days on which each Commissioner has served; the number of days occupied by each Draft Provisional Order before the Commissioners; the Draft Provisional Orders the Preambles of which ware reported to have been proved; and the Draft Provisional Orders the Preamble; of which were reported to have been not proved. "—( Mr. Sinclair.)