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Commons Chamber

Volume 181: debated on Thursday 22 August 1907

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House Of Commons

Thursday, 22nd August, 1907.

The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.

New Writ for the County of Down (West Down), in the room of Harry Liddell, esquire (Manor of Northstead).— ( Sir Alexander Acland-Hood.)

Questions And Answers Circulated With The Votes

Post Office Pensioners' Identification Papers

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will explain why an order has been issued prohibiting postmen from signing the identification papers of Post Office pensioners, in view of the fact that in some cases hardship has been caused to the pensioners.

The power to attest declarations by pensioners is limited by Treasury regulations, as regards the Post Office, to certain officers authorised to make payments, among whom postmen are not included. But I am communicating with the Treasury to see whether the authority should not be extended to postmen.

Macroom Assault Case—Constable Healy

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether any bill was sent up to the grand jury at the recent Cork Assizes in the case in which Constable Healy, who was returned for trial by a bench consisting of seven magistrates sitting at Macroom, was indicted for inflicting serious injury on one Jeremiah Cotter by breaking a baton on his head, as a result of which his life was certified to be in danger; if no bill was sent up, will he explain the reason why; and will he state what further action the authorities intend taking in this matter, seeing that in the cross case, in which Cotter and others were charged with assaulting the police and escaping from arrest, these men were acquitted, the Judge declaring that the police acted illegally in not proceeding their warrants.

After a careful consideration of the evidence I directed that no bill on behalf of the Crown should be sent up to the grand jury in the case against Constable Healy, as I could not see that there was any foundation whatever for the charge. The learned Judge, however, at the request of the private prosecutor, allowed a bill to be sent up, which the grand jury ignored. The Judge does not appear to have stated that the police acted illegally in not producing their warrants, but he said that if the police had not the warrants in their possession they were not competent to arrest. The police, however, proved that the warrants were in their possession when the arrest was effected. It is not intended to take any further proceedings in the matter.

Prosecutions For Corruption

To ask Mr. Attorney-General in how many cases his consent has been asked for a prosecution under The Prevention of Corruption Act, 1906, and in how many cases he has given his consent.

There have been four applications for the Attorney-General's fiat for prosecutions under The Prevention of Corruption Act, 1906. Fiats have been granted in three cases; one is at present under consideration. Convictions were obtained in all cases.

Re-Employment Of Pensioned Officials

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, seeing that the practice of reducing the salaries of pensioned officials who have been re-employed as a set-off against their pensions is disapproved and discouraged by at least one Department of State, he will consider the necessity, as an act of justice, of amending the Superannuation Act of 1887 and the regulations thereunder, so as to relieve pensioned officers of the British Army and Navy who are employed in the Civil Service of the country from the deductions made from their civil salaries on account of the pensions they receive.

The system of deductions under The Superanuation Act, 1887, does not apply to Army pensioners below commissioned rank. Such pensioners, when employed by the State in a civil capacity, are permitted to draw the remuneration of their civil employment, as well as their pensions, in full; and I understand that the reference in the earlier part of the Question is to some observations by my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War in favour of similar liberality being shown by private employers. The retired pay of Navy and Army officers is regarded not entirely as a reward for past services but to a large extent as compensation for loss of employment at a comparatively early age. Where the State finds employment for a retired officer, it is regarded as reasonable that at any rate the portion of the retired pay representing such compensation should be suspended during that employment. For administrative reasons, however, it has been found more convenient to make a deduction from the civil remuneration rather than to follow the strictly logical course of suspending payment of the retired pay. The deduction in practice rarely exceeds 10 per cent. of the civil remuneration, which is usually much less than the amount which would be abated from the retired pay if the principle I have indicated were strictly applied. The legislation of 1887 was very carefully considered at the time; and, so far as I am aware, nothing has occured since which would render its repeal desirable.

Post Office Savings Bank Investments

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a Return is issued annually giving in detail all stock transactions entered into on behalf of the Trustee Savings Banks, setting out the amount of stock purchased or sold in each separate occasion, together with the sum paid or received and the price per cent. at which the stock was purchased or sold; will he state whether there is any reason why the same particulars should not be given in respect of transactions entered into on behalf of the Post Office Savings Bank; and, if no such reason exists, will he take measures to secure that in future such particulars shall be given.

The account relating to Trustee Savings Banks to which my hon. friend refers is required to be presented to Parliament by Section 60 of the Act, 26 and 27 Vict. c. 87. I doubt, however, whether the details of the separate transactions are of sufficient public interest or importance to justify the labour and expense of preparing and publishing the account, and think it will be well, when an opportunity offers. to amend the law requiring its presentation. There is no similar statutory requirement in the case of the Post Office Savings Bank.

Australian Tariffs

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the new customs tariff of the Commonwealth of Australia which imposes heavy additional protective duties upon imported commodities; and whether, as such a tariff is likely to impede the development and thus to impair the credit of Australia, he will represent to the Lord Chancellor the desirability of omitting Australian stocks from the list of trustee securities.

The new Australian tariff to which my hon. friend refers is still under consideration by the Commonwealth Legislature, and it is impossible to say at this stage what precise form the proposals will take before they are placed on the Statute-book. As regards the second portion of the Question, I may point out that thestatus of "trustee" securities is given to Colonial stocks by The Colonial Stock Act, 1900, subject to the fulfilment of certain conditions prescribed by the Treasury under powers given them by that Act, and that the Lord Chancellor has no power to exclude from the category of "trustee" securities any Colonial stock with respect to which the requirements of the Act are complied with.

Income-Tax Rebates

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the treatment by the Claims Department of the Inland Revenue of applications for repayment of income-tax is often unduly protracted, and that communications from claimants are frequently ignored; and whether he will take immediate steps to secure prompt attention to such claims in future.

I am aware, as I stated in reply to a Question put to me by the noble Lord the Member for Marylebone on the 6th instant,that, owing to the immense accumulation of claims within a few months of the year and to the close investigation necessary to ensure the Department against paying away money to which the claimant's I title has not been conclusively proved, there is during the summer months a considerable delay in the settlement of claims. Every effort, however, is made by the Board of Inland Revenue to minimise this delay, both by the adoption of the most expeditious methods of dealing with the work, and by the employment of the staff on long and continuous overtime. Much as I regret the inconvenience thus caused to the public, I feat that it is impossible, consistently with the due security of the Revenue, to devise any method of reducing it further.

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Claims Department of the Inland Revenue received, on or about 23rd June last, an application for repayment of, income-tax from the executor of the late Miss M. G. Homan; whether any reply was made to such application; whether two further communications from the said executor have been received, asking for settlement of this matter; and whether he will direct that it shall be promptly dealt with.

The application in question was received in the Inland Revenue Department on the 26th June last. It is not the practice to acknowledge the receipt of claims for repayment, and to do so would, owing to the great number of such claims with which the Department has to deal, require the employment of additional staff. The two further communications mentioned in the Question were duly received and answered. Various references were necessary before the claim could be settled, but there was no undue delay, and it has now been paid.

Commercial Attachés

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs are the commercialattachés who are in future to have their head quarters in London to be placed under the control of the Foreign Office or of the Board of Trade; and to whom must the British manufacturer apply for information respecting such Foreign markets as have hitherto been represented by commercial agents, but which are in future to be represented commercially by members of the consular service.

The commercialattachés are primarily under the control of the Foreign Office, who, however, act in consultation with the Board of Trade as to the best manner in which their services can be utilised. Inquiries from British manufacturers as to Foreign markets, or as to other matters of commercial interest, should in the first instance be addressed to the Commercial Intelligence Branch of the Board of Trade.

Llanrwst National School

To ask the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the case of the schoolmaster of Llanrwst national school; whether he is aware that the managers have served the schoolmaster with notice to terminate his appointment as from 29th September next, and that the local education authority decline to assent to this proposed dismissal; and will he say whether the Board of Education have informed the managers that they do not consider it necessary that the consent of the local education authority should be sought to the formal termination of the agreement with the teacher, and have suggested to the managers that the master may be dismissed without midi consent.

The Board have stated that they do not consider the consent of the local education authority is required to the formal termination of a teacher's agreement when such termination is merely a preliminary to the re-engagement of the teacher under a fresh agreement. The Board have not suggested that the teacher may be dismissed without the consent of the local education authority, and they do not consider the dismissal of the teacher can legally take place until such consent has been obtained.

Cardiff Assistant Postmen

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he can state why two assistant postmen at Cardiff, of good character and aged twenty-two and twenty-three years of age respectively, are refused promotion to two vacancies for full-time postmen in that city.

The vacancies in question have been filled by the transfer from the rural district of two established postmen who had prior claims to those of the assistant postmen. If the latter had been willing to accept employment in the rural district it would have been possible to give them appointments as postmen some time ago.

Trim Sub-Postmistress

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the acting sub-postmistress of Trim, county Meath, refused to pay wages on Saturday the 3rd instant on the ground that there was no money, that she ordered a man who was oft duty at 1 p.m. to attend at 8 p.m. without payment, when she would have some money, and, because he was unable to, called upon him to give an explanation of this conduct; and whether he will see that proper arrangements for paying wages are made at Trim.

I will make inquiry and communicate the result to the hon. Member.

Juries At Munster Assizes

To ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he will explain why, at the Munster winter assizes of 1906, in the case of Rexv. William Ward and Timothy Casey, Irish labourers, who were being tried for their lives, twenty-one jurors were ordered to stand by; at the same assizes, in the case of Rexv. Cornelius Leary, Daniel Leary, James Cronin, and Patrick O'Keeffe, charged with resisting eviction, fifteen jurors were ordered to stand by; at the same assizes, in the case of Rexv. Patrick Meany, forty-five jurors were ordered to stand by; and in the same assizes, in the case of Rex.v. Cornelius Healy and ten others, charged with obstructing an eviction, fifteen jurors were ordered to stand by; whether, in the early part of 1906, several months before the preceding cases were tried, he sent a circular to each Crown solicitor in Ireland impressing upon him the importance of strictly complying with the rule that Crown solicitors should not inquire into the religious or political opinions of any juror, and should not direct any juror to stand by on account of his religious or political opinions; if so, what special circumstances caused him to issue this circular; and was this rule contravened in the preceding cases; and whether he will now order jury packing to cease.

A circular was sent out by me to the Crown solicitors throughout Ireland in February, 1,906, in the terms mentioned in the Question. The only special circumstances which caused me to issue it were frequent public. complaints that Crown solicitors had been in the habit of disregarding the rules as regards empannelling juries. I had no means of judging whether or not these complaints were true as regards the past, but I thought it desirable to ensure for the future strict compliance with the rules. The number of jurors respectively ordered to stand aside in the several cases mentioned in the Question is correct. In Meany's case the large number was due to the fact that extensive canvassing by friends of the prisoner was carried on, and it was necessary to order all those believed to have been affected by the canvassing to stand aside. In the other cases the number ordered to stand aside was not in my opinion in any case excessive. In one case (that of Ward and Casey) actually eight more jurors were challenged by the prisoners than were ordered to stand aside by the Crown. I have carefully scrutinised the action of the various Crown solicitors throughout Ireland since the issue of my circular, and have reason to believe that they have in every case loyally obeyed it. In no case, that I am aware of, has the rule which forbids jurors to be ordered to stand aside on the ground of their religious or political views been contravened.

Calf Lymph

To ask the President of the Local Government Board in view of the fact that before the lymph obtained from any calf is used, the animal is slaughtered for the purpose of ascertaining the condition of its health, will he state how many of the 505 calves hired last year were found on examination to be in perfect health; and, seeing that the hire of a four months' old calf for a fortnight costs the Board on an average 34s., will he say whether, in making arrangements for the supply of calves, the Board calls for tenders, and for what period are contracts made.

Of the 505 calves hired last year 444 were, after slaughter, examined by the veterinary surgeon, and 442 were certified as perfectly healthy. The contracts are not made for any definite period. The Board have from time to time made inquiries with a view to obtaining tenders from different contractors, but they have not found persons willing to tender under the conditions which they find it necessary to impose.

Khartoum Girls' School

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is yet in a position to give the House any information as to schools for girls at Khartoum, appropriation of land there by the Soudan Government, and the possible application of Wakf property to purposes of education.

With regard to the first Question, the facts were stated in Lord Cromer's last annual Report. They are as follows:—A petition for the establishment of a Government school for girls was received by the Governor-General of the Soudan in October last. The matter was fully considered and it was decided in March last that a girls' school should be established, sufficient funds having been set aside for the purpose. A beginning will shortly be made with the erection of a suitable building. The petitioners were in no case referred to the missionary school authorities. As explained by Lord Cromer, such Moslem girls as attend missionary schools in Khartoum receive secular education only unless at the express wish of their parents or guardians. With regard to the second Question, the Soudan Government expropriated for public purposes an area of 1,202 feddans of land at the confluence of the Blue and White Niles. The land was expropriated under the Land Acquisition Ordinance, 1903, a copy of which is enclosed. The prices were fixed by a Commission of three members, consisting of the sub-Governor and two official members, and were based on the prices given at the private sales which had been effected from time to time of various parts of the land. The whole of the land expropriated, except a narrow bank on the Blue Nile, consists of a low-lying fiat which is flooded at times of high Nile. The bank on the Blue Nile is being rapidly washed away. The expropriation was made with a view to building a protective masonry embankment along the Blue Nile, to protect the bank, and of constructing works to reclaim the remainder. The scheme is intimately connected with proposals for connecting Khartoum and Omdurman with a railway and a bridge, and with the eventual erection of quays along the White Nile. With regard to the second part of this Question, the Egyptian Government have on two or three occasions expropriated land at Khartoum North (Halfaya). No association of the name of the "Model Farming Association," or any similar name, is known. In 1905 a piece of uncultivated land was expropriated for a Government experimental farm, and the price paid to expropriate private rights over part of such land was at the rate of £E2 a feddan, but the average price was considerably higher. No part of this land has been sold. With regard to the third Question, the Egyptian Government have not confiscated any Wakf property. They have certain Wakf lands in their hands which are at present mainly unproductive, but some of which have a considerable value as building land. The proceeds are applicable for purposes recognised as charitable by Mahomedan Law, such as the upkeep of mosques, the payment of mosque officials, education (especially religious education), alms, etc. It would not be in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants of Egypt to restrict the application of Wakf property to educational purposes.

Egyptian Ministry And Public Instruction

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state what knowledge of Arabic is required of British officials under the Egyptian Ministry of Public Instruction and give the statistics of the examinations; and can he also give any information as to the rate of pension and salaries payable to native and British Judges respectively, and as to the inspectors appointed in the Slave Trade Repression Department in Egypt.

With regard to the first Question, British teachers in Egyptian Government schools and British officials attached to the Ministry of Education are not required to show any proficiency in Arabic prior to their appointment. Appointments under the Ministry of Education, as in other branches of the Egyptian Civil Service, are, however, probationary for a period of not less than one year or more than two years. With the exception of certain senior officials, whose appointment depends upon the possession of special technical qualifications, all British officials under the Ministry of Education are required to show proficiency in

Grade.School Year.
1902–3.1903–4.1904–5.1905—6.1906—7.
Elementary Examination517121519
Advanced Examination.1231
Honours Examination1
The examinations are held in April and November, and officials who fail at one examination are allowed to present themselves at any subsequent examination subject to the condition that unless they pass the elementary examination within the two years' limit of their probationary service they become liable to dismissal. With regard to the number of failures at the elementary examination, seventy-six British teachers and other officials em speaking, reading, and writing current Egyptian Arabic before they can be confirmed in their appointment or recommended for any increase of salary. Regulations instituting such an examination optionally were first enacted in 1898. In 1900 the elementary examination was made compulsory and an advanced examination in modern Arabic and an honours examination in classical Arabic were instituted. The compulsory clause in the regulations of 1900 is not retroactive, but all except four of the British officials to whom the clause, if retroactive would have been applicable, have voluntarily passed the elementary examination. Only twelve of the British officials now serving under the Ministry of Education have been exempted as specialists from the obligation of passing the examination as a condition of their appointment on the permanent staff; apart from these exemptions the regulations have been rigorously enforced. The advanced and honours examinations are optional, but promotion depends in a large measure upon an official passing at least the advanced examination. The number of British officials who have passed the tests during the last five years is as follows:— ployed under the Ministry of Education passed the examination on presenting themselves for the first time, and twenty-two on presenting themselves for the second time, whilst three who have presented themselves once and one who has presented himself twice have not yet passed the examination. With regard to the second Question, in the Mixed Courts the annual salaries of the native judges are:—President of the Court of Appeal, £E900; Judge of the Court of Appeal, £E1,000; President of Court of First Instance (Cairo) £E720; Judge of Court of First Instance, £E750. These Judges are entitled to pension,see page 5,infra. The annual salaries of the British judges are:—Judge of the Court of Appeal, £E1,850 (of which £E1,543 is true salary and £E307 is an indemnity in lieu of pension). Judge of Court of First Instance. £E1,388 (of which £E1,157 is true salary and £E231 is an indemnity in lieu of pension). These Judges are not entitled to pension. In the Native Civil and Criminal Courts the present salaries of the Native Judges are:£President of the Court of Appeal, £E1,500; Judges of the Court of Appeal, £E800 and £E1,000; Presidents of Courts of First Instance, £E600 and £E800; Vice-Presidents of Courts of First Instance, £E540 and £E600; Judges of Court of First Instance, five classes. £E240, £E300, £E360, £E420, and £E480. The salaries of the British Judges are:—Vice-President Of Court of Appeal, £E1,750; Judges of Court of Appeal, £E1,000 and £E1,200; Judges of Court of First Instance, £E600 to £E800. All the above native and British Judges are entitled to pension.See page 5,infra. The history of the above salaries is as follows:— The Court of Appeal was established in February, 1884, the president (native) being entitled to a salary of £E1,200, the vice-president (native) to £E900, Native Judges to £E720, Native assistant Judges (juges suppléants) to £E540, and British Judges to £E962. In 1894 the salary of assistant Judges was raised to £E660; in 1896 all the assistant Judges became Judges; and in 1897 their salaries were raised to £E720. In 1899 a British vice-president was appointed with a salary of £E1,200. In 1902 the salaries of Native Judges were raised to £E800 and of British Judges to £E1,000. In 1904 the salaries of the Native president and of the British vice-president were both raised to £E1,500. In 1905 the salaries of Judges doing assize work were raised, Native Judges to £E1,000, and British Judges to £E1,200. In 1907 the British vice-president's salary was raised to £E1,750. The Courts of First Instance were established in Lower Egypt in February, 1884, presidents (Native) being entitled to salaries of £E600 and £E720, vice- presidents (Native) to £E480 and £E600, Native Judges to £E420, Native assistant Judges to £E264, and British Judges to £E700. Similar courts were established in Upper Egypt in June 1889, presidents (Native) being entitled to a salary of £E420, vice-presidents (Native) to £E336, Native Judges to £E300, Native assistant Judges to £E174. In 1893 the salaries of presidents in Upper Egypt were raised to £E540, of vice-presidents in Upper Egypt to £E480, and of vice-presidents in Lower Egypt to £E540. At the same time all the Native Judges for both Upper and Lower Egypt were divided into the five classes existing at the present day. In 1903 the salaries of the presidents of Cairo and Alexandria were raised to £E800, and those of presidents in Upper Egypt to £E600, and of vice-presidents in Upper Egypt to £E540. In 1905 British Judges were first appointed in Upper Egypt, and at the same time the salaries of British Judges in both Upper and Lower Egypt were put on the present footing. In the Mahomedan Ecclesiastical Courts all the Judges are Natives. Their present salaries are as follows:—President of the Supreme Court (Grand Cadi), £E1,735; Judges of Supreme Court, £E480; Judges of Central Court of Cairo, £E300 and £E480; President (Cadi) of Central Courts, £E168, £E192, £E216, £E240, £E480, and £E600; Judges and Muftis of Central Courts, £E120, £E216, £E240, and £E300; Judges of District Courts, £E72 and £E120. All these Judges are entitled to pension,see page 5,infra. As regards the history of these salaries it appears that in 1876 the Grand Cadi and the presidents and Judges of the Central Courts at Cairo and Alexandria were drawing their present salaries. Before 1884 the presidents of the other Central Courts were receiving salaries up to £E144 and the Judges' and muftis' salaries up to £E84. In that year the salaries of the presidents were raised to £E144 to £E240, and of the Judges and muftis to £E84 to £E96. In 1907 the salaries of Judges and muftis were raised to the present figure. In 1880 the salaries of Judges of the district courts were up to £E60; in that year they were increased to £E60 to £E72; in 1891 they were all equalised at £E72; and in the present year the salaries of about half of these Judges have been raised to £E120. As regards pensions as mentioned above the British Judges of the Mixed Courts are not entitled to any. Six native Judges of the Native Courts are entitled to a pension, under the provisions of the Pension Law of Said Pasha (26th December, 1854), at the rate of one-fourth of their last year's salary after fifteen years service, one-third after twenty years, one-half after twenty-five years, two-thirds after thirty years, and to a pension equal to their last year's salary after forty years service. Three native Judges of the native Courts are entitled to a pension, under the Pension Law of Ismail Pasha (11th June, 1871), at the rate of one-fourth of their last year's salary after thirty years service. All the other Judges above-mentioned, viz.: native Judges of the Mixed Courts,
Name.Rank.Appointed.Salary.
F. J. AtterburyInspector1st January, 1905£E500
Mr. Brander DunbarInspector1st January, 1906£E500
Resigned and replaced by—
Mr. Akers-DouglasInspector11th July, 1906£E500
Mr. Lake GeereInspector1st January, 1906£E500

Judge Ross And The Estates Commissioners

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to one or two recent judgments of Mr. Justice Ross in the Land Judges' Court, in which severe strictures are conveyed upon the action of the Estates Commissioners, and a charge made against them that in their administration of the Land Purchase Act of 1903 they have been acting in entire violation of the law; whether, in view of these allegations, he is in a position to grant a Return giving particulars of the instances in which the differences which arose between the Estates Commissioners and the Land Judge have been the subject of judicial determination and the effects of that determination. of the Native Civil and Criminal Courts, and of the Mahomedan Ecclesiastical Courts, and British Judges of the Native Courts, are subject to the provisions of the Pension Law of the 21st June, 1887. A Judge who has entered the Government service under the age of thirty-five, has served for twenty-five years, and attained the age of fifty-five, is entitled to pension under this law. The basis of this pension is the average annual salary drawn by him during the last three years of his service, and he is entitled to a pension at the rate of one-sixtieth of this average salary for every year's service. This pension cannot exceed either £E600, or three-quarters of his average salary. With regard to the third question the following officials were appointed to the Slave Trade Department during the years 1905–6:£

I am not in a position to give a Return such as the hon. Member asks for. Anyone who may be interested in the subject of the Question can, I presume, obtain full information upon it by referring to the Irish Law Reports.

Kinvara Harbour

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware of the sums of money available for the construction of certain improvement works in connection with Kinvara Harbour, Galway; whether the initiation of the works is contingent upon a grant being given by the Galway County Council; whether the council has signified to the Agricultural Department, the Congested Districts Board, and the Board of Works its willingness to make the said grant; and whether, in view of the urgency of the works, the Government will enable the county council to carry out the works, which are not alone essential in the interest of the harbour, but certain to be of advantage to the poor people this bad season in providing them with employment.

As the hon. Member is aware, the difficulty in this matter arises from the fact that in the present state of the law, the Galway County Council have no power to make the necessary contribution towards the cost of the work in question. This difficulty would have been removed if the Navigation Works Bill of this session had become law.

Crossdoney Police Barracks

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that there is a police barracks at Crossdoney, county Cavan; how many men are stationed there; what is the population of the town, and how many inhabited houses are there; how many licensed houses; how near is this station to the nearest police barracks; is there a telephone and telegraph office in Crossdoney; and is it intended to continue this police station.

The police station at Crossdoney is occupied by four men. The village itself has a population of but seventy-five persons occupying eleven houses, but the district attached to the station is of considerable extent and has a population of 1,660 persons. The village contains no licensed houses, but has a telegraph and telephone office. The station is two and a half miles distant from the next adjacent station. The question whether it may be possible to abolish the station at Crossdoney has recently been under the consideration of the police authorities, but a decision has not yet been arrived at.

Bilingual Programme For Irish Schools

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Com- missioners of National Education have framed any, and, if so, what new rules with respect to the introduction of the bilingual programme for the present school year; whether any, and, if so, what, conditions are to be laid down as to the qualifications of the school staff; and whether, in view of the fact that the official training colleges have not given adequate facilities far training young teachers in the Irish language, and that this work has been carried out by the voluntary training colleges established by the Gaelic League at Ballingeary, Mount Partry, Cloghaneely, and Dublin, for each of the four provinces, he will see that no obstacles are placed in the way of national schools desirous of adopting the bilingual programme.

The Commissioners of National Education inform me that their regulations as to the use of the bilingual programme in national schools are as follows:—The use of the bilingual programme may be permitted only—(1) If the home language of the majority of the pupils is Irish; (2) If the teacher can speak Irish fluently; (3) If instruction through the medium of English will be given to any exclusive English-speaking pupils whose parents desire it. In schools in which the bilingual programme is adopted Irish should be mainly the medium of instruction for the junior standards (I. to III.), and English mainly for the higher. The merit of the teaching is judged by the proficiency both in Irish and English, the former being the main factor in the case of the junior classes, and the latter in the case of the higher. Permission to use the bilingual programme is withdrawn if the school declines in usefulness under bilingual conditions, or if the recognised Irish-speaking teacher leaves, unless his successor satisfies the condition as to knowledge of Irish. A fee of 4s. may be paid for each unit of the average attendance of pupils receiving bilingual instruction in schools classified as fair as a result of the annual inspection, of 6s. in schools classified as good, and of 8s. in schools classified as very good or excellent. These regulations are the same as those which were in operation for the school year ended 30th June last, except that the maximum fee per pupil for the past year was only 4s. The Commissioners inform me that they are strongly in favour of the use of the bilingual programme in schools in Irish-speaking districts, and no obstacles are placed in the way of its introduction in schools in which the conditions of the rules are fulfilled.

Irish Teachers' Increments

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can states why the Commissioners of National Education granted increments to certain teachers on 1st April, 1903, and only granted further increments to such teachers from the 1st November, 1906, thereby depriving them of seven months increase of salary; and whether he can get the Commissioners to make such alterations as are necessary to deal equitably with the cases of such teachers.

The Commissioners of National Education inform me that teachers to whom increments were granted on 1st April, 1903, were awarded further increments as from 1st April, 1903, in all cases in which the intervening service was continuous and satisfactory. In the absence of information as to the particular cases to which the Question refers, the Commissioners are unable to give reasons why the increments were postponed in these cases. The Commissioners claim that increments are equitably awarded, and that there is no reason why they should alter their mode of dealing with such cases.

Irish Teachers' Promotion

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how many national teachers in Ireland are to be disallowed promotion for the triennial period ended 31st March, 1907, to second-of-first grade and first-of-first, respectively, through the adverse report of a new inspector on his first visit to a school in cases where the two preceding reports were up to the required standard; will the National Board allow an impartial and unprejudiced investigation into all such cases in which the managers alleged at the time that the minutes of such new inspectors were unjust and unwarrantable and requested a reinspection and in cases in which such reinspection was refused; has the National Board yet seen the advisability and justice of complying with the requests made frequently by the Central Executive Committee of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation and the various associations of national teachers throughout Ireland for the past two years that no teacher be disallowed promotion on account of the adverse minute of any inspector on his first visit to a school when the two preceding reports had been of a character to justify such promotion.

In reply to the first part of the Question, I refer to my Answer to the hon. Member for South Belfast on 12th instant. The Commissioners inform me that all cases are carefully investigated in which a manager alleges that an inspector's report is unfair. The Commissioners are unable to give an assurance of the general nature suggested in the concluding part of the Question.

Irish National Education Board

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that only a small proportion of the Commissioners of National Education usually attend the meetings of the Board, some of them being old and unable to take any active interest in educational matters; and, seeing that the whole work of the Board is practically in the hands of the Resident Commissioner and a few of the higher officials, who being over sixty years of age can, unless they do as he desires, be called on to retire, as recently happened to a chief inspector, whether he will consider the desirability of advising the Lord-Lieutenant to dismiss several of the present members of the Board in the hope that the dissatisfaction with its administration may be somewhat abated.

The hon. Member is mistaken in supposing that only a small proportion of the Commissioners attend meetings of the Board. I find that during the last school year an average of about two-thirds of the members attended each meeting. I have no information that any of the Commissioners are incapacitated by age from taking an active interest in their work, or that, as a matter of fact, the Board delegates it proper functions to the higher officials. As at present advised, I am not aware of any reason why the Lord-Lieutenant should dispense with the services of any existing members of the Board.

Ballyconnell Fishing Pier

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that work has been stopped at the fishing pier at Ballyconnell, county Sligo, which was commenced by the Congested Districts Board; that it is quite useless in its present state, and that a pier is greatly needed by the fishermen of the district; and can he say when the work will be resumed and the pier completed.

The Congested Districts Board are informed by their engineer that the work which they undertook at Knocklane, Ballyconnell, has been practically finished.

Cavan Industrial School—Case Of Horan Children

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether two children named Horan, who were duly committed to the Cavan industrial school, were ordered to be discharged by the Lord-Lieutenant on the ground that the evidence on which they were committeed was insufficient; if so, will he say on whose representations was their discharge ordered; and will he have this case fully investigated.

This case was brought to my notice by the inspector of reformatory and industrial schools in the usual course, and I was advised by the law officers that the evidence did not justify the committal of the children to an industrial school. I was obliged, therefore, to direct the discharge of the children.

C C B White Estate, Leitrim

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether negotiations for the lease of the C. C. B. White estate, Newtownmanor, county Leitrim, now in the Land Judge's Court, have been completed; and, if not, will he take any steps open to him to secure a sale of this estate at the earliest possible moment.

The Land Judge has made an order for the sale of this estate, and the Estates Commissioners some time since lodged a request, under Section 7 of the Act of 1903, for particulars of the estate with a view to considering the question of purchase. The title of the estate, however, is very long and complicated, and hence there has necessarily been considerable delay in complying with the Estates Commissioners' request. The Registrar of the Land Judge's Court informs me that the matter will be pushed forward as rapidly as possible.

Housing Of Working Classes In Irish Towns

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that promises have been repeatedly made by his predecessors in office that provision would be made for the better housing of the working classes in towns in Ireland; and can he inform the House whether he has considered this matter, and what are his intentions in reference to it.

I am not aware of any foundation for the hon. Member's suggestion beyond the fact that on 22nd November last my predecessor informed him that the Government would, at a convenient opportunity, consider whether any Amendments of. the law relating to the housing of the working classes in the towns of Ireland may be necessary. I have already said that I cannot at present promise legislation, but that I recognise the importance of the subject and will give it full consideration.

Duncannon Evicted Tenants

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that Robert Devereux, Battlestown, Duncannon, applied to the Estates Commissioners for restoration to one or other of the farms from which he was evicted; if the Estates Commissioners have considered his application; and do they propose restoring either of his farms to him.

The Estates Commissioners have inquired into the application and have ascertained that the evictions took place more than twenty-five years before the passing of the Act of 1903. The applicant, therefore, does not come within the provisions of Section 2 of the Act.

Irish Land Purchase Advances

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland will he give, by tabulation or otherwise, the operation of sinking funds on first advances and also on additional advances under the various Purchase of Land Acts, commuting the dividend instalments under what are termed the decadal reductions.

I would refer the hon. Member to the several Treasury rules prescribing the redemption tables to be used under the Land Purchase Acts, and also to the provisions of Section 25 of the Act of 1896 with regard to the decade system. I will send a list of the rules in question to the hon. Member.

Kilmallock Courthouse

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland can he say whether Captain Fitzpatrick, resident magistrate in Kilmallock, county Limerick, has been instrumental in preventing the members of the Town Tenants Association, a strictly non-political body, from using for their meetings the courthouse in the town, or are the functions and duties of that gentleman, a paid magistrate, quite in keeping with such conduct; and can he say who are the real custodians of the courthouse and have they delegated their powers to Captain Fitzpatrick.

I am informed that at the opening of the Kilmallock petty sessions court on 2nd instant, the Chairman, Captain Fitzpatrick, resident magistrate, announced that the magistrates had decided not to allow the Town Tenants Association to hold meetings in the courthouse. The magistrates are the custodians of the courthouse, and it is to be presumed that Captain Fitzpatrick spoke with their authority. That gentleman, however, is at present on leave of absence, and I have had no opportuinty of communicating with him in the matter.

Means Of Identifying Irish Policemen

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the cities of Waterford, Cork, Limerick, and Belfast, the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary who perform the duties of policemen in those cities have numbers on their uniforms for the purpose of identification; that, although the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the cities have numbers on their uniforms, the constabulary in country districts do not wear numbers on their uniforms; and that the constabulary in the cities, when drafted even for a few hours into country districts, have the numbers removed from their uniforms, whereas the constabulary in rural districts when drafted, as in the recent Belfast riots, into the cities, have numbers place d on their uniforms; what is the reason that the means for identification of a policeman by the wearing of the number on his uniform should be afforded to the inhabitants of the Irish cities and denied to the inhabitants of country districts; whether he is aware that the senior Member for the City of London, when Chief Secretary for Ireland, defended the practice of not placing numbers on the uniforms of the constabulary in the country districts on the ground that such means of identification was calculated to give facilities for the making of false accusations against the police; and whether, having regard to the fact that members of the constabulary have refused to give their names when reqiured to do so by persons desiring to complain of their conduct, and of the difficulty of identifying them by reason of their uniform, steps will be taken, now that the alleged grievances of the Royal Irish Constabulary are to be taken into consideration with a view to their removal, to provide that the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, like the members of the police of other countries, should wear numbers on their uniforms in towns and country alike.

This Question is practically identical with one which the hon. and learned Member addressed to my predecessor on 6th March, 1906. The matter is new to me, and I have not had time to look into it fully since notice of the Question was given. I am, however, informed that Mr. Bryce's Answer still holds good.

Belfast Labour Dispute

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he could state the circumstances under which the Riot Act was read and the military ordered to fire on the people by Major Thackeray, R.M., at Peel Street, Belfast, on the night of 13th August; whether people in the immediate vicinity of the magistrate were not aware of the Riot Act having been read and received no warning that the military were to fire; whether Major Thackeray had made any Report on the subject; and whether any compensation would be made by the Government to the families of those killed and wounded.

The coroner's inquest in this case has been adjourned till Monday next, and while it is pending it would be irregular and undesirable to answer any Question on the subject.

Extra Police In County Leitrim

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether an application for a payment in connection with extra police has been made to the county council of Leitrim; by whom has the application been made and by whose authority; under what statute is it proposed to levy the charge; have the Law Officers of the Crown in Ireland been consulted in reference to this matter; what is the maximum quota to which Leitrim is entitled; when was the quota fixed and what was the average number of constabulary stationed in the county of Leitrim in the years 1881, 1891, 1901, and 1906; have full particulars been furnished to the county council; and will he give his personal attention to this matter.

The Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary applied to the Leitrim County Council for the payment of sums amounting to £339 18s. in respect of extra police stationed in the county during the year ending 31st March last, and as the county council refused to pay, the amount has, by order of the Lords Justices, been deducted from the sums payable to the county from the local taxation account. The Inspector-General acted under the authority of the Acts 9 and 10 Vic., c. 97, and 11 and 12 Vic., c. 72, which authorise the charge to be levied. The Law Officer were not consulted on this particular case, in which the established practice was followed. The present free quota of police for Leitrim is 147,which was fixed in May, 1906. The average number of the free force in the county was: in 1881, 210; in 1891, 220; in 1901, 182; and in 1906, 146. It is, however, to be remembered that since 1881 the population has decreased by nearly one-fourth. Full particulars of the extra forces charge 1 for have been furnished to the county council.

Irish Government Reports

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can explain the cause of the continuing delay in the presentation of the Reports of Irish Departments to the House of Commons; whether he is aware that the Reports of, the Commissioners of National Education, the Department of Agriculture, the Local Government Board, the General Prisons Board, the Estates Commissioners, etc., have only been presented within the last week; and if he proposes to take any steps to ensure that these Reports will in future be laid before Parliament in sufficient time before the close of the session to permit of their examination, and the discussion of their contents where necessary, by the House of Commons, which the present procedure seems to be calculated to prevent.

It cannot be admitted that there has been any undue delay in the presentation of the Reports to which the hon. Member refers. The Reports of four of the Departments named are for the financial year ending 31st March, while that of the National Board covers the school year ending 30th June. I find that last year the Reports of two of these Departments, namely, the National Board and the Estates Commissioners, were not presented till after the House had risen, and the present year therefore shows an improvement. It must be remembered that all of these Reports contain elaborate statistics which in some cases cannot be prepared until particulars have been received from local authorities, and that the mere printing occupies a considerable time. In the circumstances it would not appear that a period of three months for preparing the Reports is unreasonably long. I am assured that all possible expedition is used in the preparation of the Reports.

Policemen Injured In Belfast Riots

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland will he say the number of policemen injured during the Belfast riots, and the particulars of the injuries they received.

Forty-five policemen were injured during the riots at Belfast on 11th and 12th instant. Of these fourteen received injuries to the head and face, and thirty were injured about the body and limbs, the injuries being in all cases inflicted by stones, bottles, and other missiles thrown by the rioters. One man had his ankle sprained.

War Office Employees At Shoeburyness

To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether those civilian employees under the War Office at Shoeburyness who are technically classified as casually employed, were deprived of pay on 28th and 29th June, by reason of these days being holidays, whereas the office staff and other employees classified as established or regularly employed received full pay for these days; and whether he can see his way to place all civilian subordinates in Army Departments whose services are in fact regularly used on the same footing as regards payment during public official holidays.

It is in accordance with the regulations at present in force that casual employees do not get paid for public holidays. The whole matter is, however, under review.

To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, under Regulation 23 of 1904 for civilian subordinates in Army Departments, artificers who are worked overtime are only paid for the excess of hours at their hourly rating; whether he is aware that under trade union rates for overtime it is usual to have time and a quarter for the first two hours and time and a half afterwards; whether he is aware that these trade union rates were in force at Shoeburyness prior to the regulations of 1904; and whether he can see his way to adopt again the trade union scale.

It has been found necessary to refer the question to the local military authorities for report. As soon as the information is received it will be sent to the hon. Member.

Cost Of Khaki Tunics

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state the average price paid by the War Office for khaki tunics and hand-made soldiers' gloves during the South African war, also the price being paid for the same articles at the present time.

It is not clear from the hon. Member's question what particular information he desires, as the tunics issued during the war varied considerably in material and in prices. If the hon. Member would kindly call at the War Office, I will see that he obtains all the information that can legitimately be given, in view of the fact that prices are confidential.

Civil Powers To Call Out The Military

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, when the War Office is informed, in accordance with Paragraph 273 of the Army Regulations, that troops have been called out in aid of the civil powers, the Secretary for War has the authority to withdraw the troops from assisting the civil power.

The broad principle of the law of England is that the military authority is bound to come to the aid of the civil authority with armed force, if such force be necessary, to put down violent opposition to the civil power of such a character that the civil power cannot cope with it unaided. In giving effect to the obligation which this principle imposes it is obvious that discretion must be exercised, for the general law does not tolerate the exercise of more force than is necessary. What force is necessary is a matter for the authorities civil and military to judge of. The primary responsibility andprima facie to judge is with the civil authority which calls for aid, but the military authority cannot divest itself of responsibility by merely complying without forming a judgment as to the proportion between end and means. It is this secondary responsibility with which the paragraphs in the King's Regulations to which the hon. Member refers deal, and it follows from the law, as I have stated it, that these regulations which only apply to the mode of executing the principle, and do not touch the principle itself, do not and cannot cut down the obligation which the general law imposes on the military authority to respond in a proper case to the appeal of the civil authority, and of the. propriety of the case the civil authority is, as I have already pointed out,prima facie the judge.

Employment Of Ex-Soldiers

To ask the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Major A. W. Taylor, 2nd Battalion Queen's Regiment, Colchester, is sending out circular letters to the traders in Essex offering the services free of charges and without wages, as unskilled labourers, of men serving with the colours who are nearing time expiration; if such circulars are sanctioned by the Army Council; and whether he will take steps to stop officers in the Army issuing offers of free or cheaper labour whereby employers are tempted to discharge their ordinary workmen.

My attention has been called to the letter in question. This letter specifies that the soldiers should be employed as extra hands, and that any work they perform should be given free of charge in return for instruction given to them by their employer. This proposal, however, not being in accord with instructions issued from time to time by the War Office on the subject of the technical training of soldiers, which do not propose that instruction should be given in exchange for free labour, the attention of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, the Eastern Command, has been drawn to this letter, with a view to prevent offers of free or cheaper labour being made to employers.

Territorial Forces Bill

To ask the Secretary of State for War if he can now state the approximate date when the Territorial Forces Bill will come into actual operation.

The work of drafting the regulations necessary for the detailed application of the Act requires time, but it is being rapidly pressed forward. I am already in communication with the lieutenants of counties, and a Special Committee has been appointed to assist them in the formation of their county associations. Matters should be sufficiently far advanced in the course of next spring for the system to be put into general operation.

Royal Horse Artillery Recruiting Office

To ask the Secretary of State for War, whether the recruiting office for the Royal Horse Artillery is open; and, if not, since what date it has been closed.

Recruiting for the Royal Horse Artillery is open at Woolwich for gunners, and at certain regimental depots for drivers. The Royal Horse Artillery has been up to its establishment for some time, and recruiting for this arm, as for other branches of the service, is regulated by requirements.

Allocation Of War Office Contracts To Private Firms

To ask the Secretary of State for War, whether he will consider the advisability of informing all contractors to his department that the nation has already provided at an enormous expense workshops and have trained a number of men to provide them with munitions of war, and that they cannot see their way clear to in any way increase the amount of orders hitherto given to private firms.

Soldiers Injured In Belfast Riots

To ask the Secretary of State for War, will he say the number of soldiers injured during the Belfast riots, and the particulars of the injuries they received.

The casualties have not been reported to the War Office, but have been called for. The information is not yet to hand.

Fernando Po

To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether, with a view to the better protection of the interests of British subjects, English and African, resident in Fernando Po, he will give instructions to the resident at Calabar to act as British consul and visit the island periodically.

Mr. Cottrell, a local resident, was appointed consular agent at Fernando Po last year.

Kaffir Labour In The Transvaal

To ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any law or regulation exists in the Transvaal whereby Kaffir labour is prevented from competing with European skilled labour.

The Secretary of State is not aware of such law or regulation.

Australian Tariff

To ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, why, if the new Australian tariff has been received at the Colonial Office, it has not been laid on the Table and circulated among the commercial classes in order that full advantage may be at once taken of the provisions by Sir William Lyne, the Minister of Commerce and Labour in the Commonwealth Administration, for the development of trade with the Mother Country upon mutually advantageous terms and a preferential basis.

The hon. and gallant Member is under a misapprehension to which I fear I may have unintentionally contributed. The new Australian traiff has not been received at the Colonial Office. A telegram has been received from the Governor General stating that the Reuter telegrams from Melbourne of the 8th and 9th instant, which appeared in the daily papers of the 9th and 12th instant, on the subject of the new tariff are correct. The substance of this telegram was published in the Board of Trade Journal on the 15th instant, together with other details received by the Board from the officer representing the Commonwealth in London. The information in the possession of His Majesty's Government has therefore already been fully notified to the public.

Trade Marks

To ask the President of the Board of Trade what steps he proposes to take with regard to the recommendations of the Select Committee of 1897 concerning the Merchandise Marks Act, 1877, and. the advertisement to Foreign trade rivals of the mark Made in Germany required under certain circumstances by the 17th section, having regard to the failure to secure enactment for the Bill upon the subject, notwithstanding its passage through the Standing Committee and the assistance of the Board of Trade.

I am afraid I cannot at present give any promise to introduce a Bill to amend the Merchandise Marks Act, but I am fully aware of the importance of the subject.

Railway Rates for Conveyance of Beet Sugar to Ports for (a) Home Consumption (b) for Export.
RouteDistance in kilometres.Railway rates for quantities of at least 10 tons.†
(a) For local delivery.(b) For export.‡
Marks per ton.Marks per ton.
Breslau—Hamburg60928·6014·60
Magdeburg—Hamburg25112·506·70
Magdeburg—Bremen26713·207·10
Brunswick (Main Stn.)—Hamburg1909·805·40
Brunswick (Main Stn.)—Bremen1849·505·20
Düsseldorf—Hamburg38415·706·50
Frankfurt a. M.—Hamburg53133·1012·90
Dresden—Hamburg46228·9011·40
†Ton; of 1,000 kilos (=2,204 lbs. avoirdupois).
‡These rates are under an exceptional tariff for export over sea, which applies only to quantities of at least 10 tons.

Excise Bonded Warehouses

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether Excise bonded warehouses are allowed to remain open without an officer being present therein if not, what is the reason why a different practice is followed by the Customs authorities whose warehouses are left open without protection for revenue, except the warehouse keepers' Bond; and whether the Treasury Bonded Warehouse Committee, 1881–3, approved one practice for Excise and a different one for Customs warehouses.

German Railway Rates On Sugar

To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether he is yet in a position to give information with regard to German railway rates on sugar.

The following statement gives the information desired by the hon. Member:— the two departments, though both are administering the same Regulations. The Board of Customs are satisfied that their system, which has been in force for many years, secures administrative convenience without any danger of loss of revenue. I think, however, that the matter requires further consideration with reference to the wording of the Regulations, and I am causing inquiry to be made into it.

Scottish Excise Licenses

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, if he will state, for the years ending 31st March, 1901, 1904, 1905, 1906, and 1907 the total number of Excise licences for the sale of intoxicating liquors by retail in Scotland, distinguishing separately for each year retailers of spirits, licensed grocers, and retailers of wine not to be

Description of licence.Number of licences.
Year ended 31st March.
1901.1904.1905.1906.1907.
Number.Number.Number.Number.Number.
Retailers of spirits7,2267,0847,0256,9916,951
Licensed grocers3,8233,7453,7153,6843,657
Retailers of wine not to be consumed on the premises3,6263,5913,5653,5433,525
†Other retailers690652622605615
Total15,36515,07214,92714,82314,748
†Consist of the following:—
Dealers in spirits, additional licences to retail.
Retailers of beer, cider, and perry.
" beer and wine.
" table beer.
" wine to be consumed on the premises.
" sweets.
Passenger boats.

Second Division Scheme

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether he will state the probable date at which the Treasury intend to promulgate the new Second Division scheme, and also the probable date from which it is intended this scheme should take effect.

A new Order in Council dealing with the Second Division will shortly be passed, but I am unable at present to fix any date for it.

Comptroller And Auditor-General's Private Secretary

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether, seeing that the private secretary to the Comptroller and consumed on the premises, in that country.

The Board of Inland Revenue have furnished me with the statistics given below in reply to my hon. friend's Question:— Auditor-General until lately received £150 special allowance, that such special allowance is not pensionable, that it has now been reduced to £100 and the other £50 merged for pensionable purposes in the ordinary salary of the holder of the position, and that this gentleman only serves seven hours per day as formerly, he will explain whether an evasion of the Superannuation Acts has taken place in this case; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take.

I have nothing to add to my previous Answers on this subject except, that the grant of a pensionable allowance for the additional duties which this officer now performs involves no evasion of the Superannuation Acts.

Audit Of Irish Accounts

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that thirty to thirty-five large duplicate books (the originals being kept in Dublin), containing the grades, salaries, and other particulars of 16,000 to 18,000 Irish teachers, are biennially forwarded to the Audit Office, London, by the Education Office, Dublin; that average attendances of schools and quarterly payments to these teachers are entered in the books of the Irish Education Office and again in London in these duplicate books by Audit Office officials; that amending lists prepared in Dublin, necessitating much time and labour, are sent quarterly from the Irish Education Office to the Audit Office, London, and the amending particulars thus furnished entered by Audi Office officials in these duplicate books; that on ever Irish account audited in London duplicate establishment books, and in many cases various duplicate records of other kinds, are necessarily kept under the present system of audit; and that the time and labour involved in duplication alone could be avoided if the work were done in Dublin by a permanent local staff such as obtains in the case of numerous English accounts, he will explain how the absence of a permanent local staff to conduct the audit of the Irish accounts in Ireland does not result in duplication of work, inefficiency of audit, and waste of public money.

I beg to refer the hon. Member to my reply of the 30th ultimo. For the reason there given these records would be required if the audit of these accounts were conducted in Ireland.

The Comptroller And Auditor-General

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, seeing that the Comptroller and Auditor-General is particularly the servant of the House of Commons and audits the public accounts under its direct supervision, and that some time ago a subordinate in the Audit Office raised a point with reference to the Crown Colonies and Protectorates having free housing accommodation, free light, and stationary from the Imperial Government for the Colonial Audit Branch in London for about fifteen years, he will explain why the Comp troller and Auditor-General wrote off this point; and, if not, will he say how the House of Commons can adequately criticise and supervise the work of its officer, the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

I have nothing to add to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member on this subject on the 26th June last.

Arrest Of Dutch Ship By The "Skipjack"

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the captain and crew of a Dutch ship, seized on the 30th of May last for offences under the Customs Consolidation Act of 1876, were placed under arrest by the captain of the " Skipjack," and subsequently prosecuted; that the charge preferred was dismissed, and the captain and crew acquitted on the ground that their ship was outside territorial waters at the time of seizure; that, upon the decision being given, counsel for His Majesty's Commissioners of Customs obtained a certificate of indemnity on behalf of the officers who executed the seizure, which could only have been granted where a claimant to the proceeds of the seizure was in existence and before the court has successfully sustained such claim, and that the defendants' solicitor consented to the certificate being granted and to the proceedings being for that purpose treated as a claim for the return of the ship and cargo; and whether, seeing that the Commissioners of His Majesty's Customs, having thus obtained the certificate of indemnity which they could not otherwise have obtained, have since refused to return the ship and cargo to its owner, and have not commenced any other proceedings whatever, and that the defendants have now been kept for three months without knowledge of what is to be done or intended to he done, he will say what steps will be taken towards these subjects of a friendly Power.

As regards the first part of this Question I beg to refer the hon. Member to the Question of the hon. and gallant Member for East Down of the 4th ultimo, and to my reply thereto. I am informed that the certificate of indemnity was granted in the absence of any objection by the defendant's solicitor, but that its grant could not prejudice the owner of the vessel in any action which he may be advised to bring for recovery of damages either for the seizure of the vessel or for her continued detention since the above-mentioned proceedings were dismissed. With regard to the last part of the Question I understand that on the 24th June last the defendant's solicitor was informed, by direction of the Board of Customs, of the course to be pursued if it was desired to contest the forfeiture of the ship. A notice of claim on behalf of the owners has since been received from him; and the ordinary proceedings for condemnation of the ship are in progress. He was informed on the 2nd instant that proper notice would be given to him when these proceedings are in such a state as to render it necessary for him to take any steps to defend them.

Supervisors Of Inland Revenue

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will explain the circumstances under which the supervisor of Inland Revenue, who was promoted over more than 100 of his seniors last year, was declared not successful at the examination for inspectorship; whether any correspondence passed between the Inland Revenue Board and the Civil Service Commissioners; if so, did it result in the cancellation of this officer's examination; whether, in view of all the circumstances, the officer has been or will be informed that he will be allowed to compete at the next examination for inspectorship of excise; and whether all the Papers connected with the case will be submitted to the proper authority when the administration of Somerset House is next subjected to investigation.

The Board of Inland Revenue inform me that the supervisor in question committed a breach of the conditions of the examination by revealing to one of the examiners the examination number assigned to him, and that by their order, after consultation with the Civil Service Commissioners, his name was removed from the list of candidates. The Board were satisfied that his action was due to an error of judgment and not to any wilful or corrupt motive, but they removed his name as they considered that nothing should be condoned that might endanger the impartiality with which these examinations should be conducted. No application has been received from the supervisor to compete at the next examination for inspector of excise.

The Secretary To The Board Of Inland Revenue

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Secretary to the Board of Inland Revenue has yet departed upon his customary tour of inspection from the centre selected by him for a holiday resort; whether the subsistence allowance and first-class travelling expenses will be paid as in previous years in connection with this holiday inspection; whether he will state what is the object of this inspection, in view of the fact that the present Secretary to the Board of Inland Revenue (contrary to the practice in previous years and to the recommendation of a Commission of Inquiry) has no practical knowledge of outside excise duties; whether the inspection is ordered by the Board of Inland Revenue as a condition to the granting of a holiday to their Secretary; and whether the audit office distinguishes between the expenses proper to the official visits and those incurred in connection with the Secretary's holiday.

I must refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by my predecessor to the hon. Member for South Down on 4th August, 1906. I need only add to that reply that only expenses incurred strictly on official business are charged to the Vote, and these are, of course, subject to the usual scrutiny by the Audit Office. The Board of Inland Revenue inform me, however, that they have not this year directed their, secretary to visit any place.

Second Division Clerks

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether a new scheme governing the pay of Second Division clerks is about to come into force; whether those Second Division clerks now serving have been offered by his Department the opportunity of being placed in receipt of that salary to which they would have been entitled had this new scheme been in existence at the dates of their appointments; and, if so, whether he will state what reasons there are why a similar concession was not extended to the new class of assistant clerks when the scale of pay of that body of Civil Servants was altered in 1905.

Certain changes in the scale of salary fixed for the Second Division clerks are being contemplated, but I am unable at this stage to give my hon. friend any detailed information. There is, however, no analogy between the cases of the assistant clerks referred to and the clerks of the Second Division.

Customs Assistant Clerks

To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether a memorial from the assistant clerks, new class, in the Statistical Office, Customs, was forwarded to the principal of that office on the 9th of last month for transmission to the Treasury; whether attached to the memorial were certain official documents substantiating the statements made by the clerks that the conditions under which they were induced to enter the Civil Service were not being observed; and, if so, whether this memorial and the accompanying papers have been now received at the Treasury.

In view of the fact that the memorial in question did not explicitly withdraw the charge that there had been a breach of faith by His Majesty's Government, the Board of Customs declined to forward it. But in these circumstances it is open to the memorialists to address the Treasury direct.

Irish Post Office Uniform Contracts

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will now arrange to have cloth and other materials for making up boots, waterproofs, etc., required for the Irish Post Office service, delivered free in Dublin, and there subjected to expert examination, in order to give the same facilities to Irish. manufacturers in Ireland as are now enjoyed by English manufacturers in England, and also to save the cost of carriage from London to Ireland which, under the present arrangement, the Post Office Vote has to bear.

The only materials now sent from Ireland to London and then returned to Ireland are certain linings of an average annual value of about £90.

Central Telegraph Office—Case Of Miss Pledge

To ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the case of the late Miss Pledge, of the Central Telegraph Office, who expired on 18th June, death having been certified to be due to cerebral paralysis and coma; whether he is aware that this officer had been for many months prior to her demise subjected to constant invigilation and espionage on the part of a certain supervisor; whether he will cause inquiry to be made into this system of unduly harassing the staff with a view to securing more humane treatment to State servants whose ill health, as in this case, has been caused by long service on telegraphic duties of a very exacting nature.

Miss Pledge's death was due to cerebral paralysis, resulting, in the opinion of the medical adviser to the Post Office, from organic disease of the brain or its blood-vessels. In December last Miss Pledge's duties were rearranged with a view to giving her an opportunity of proving her capabilities in sound-reading, a branch of work in which she had previously shown herself weak. Her work was occasionally observed in order that her progress might be reported on; there was nothing whatever in the nature of "invigilation and espionage." Miss Pledge made no complaint to her supervising officers of the strain of the new work, and I have no reason to think that she did not receive every consideration from them. I am advised that there is no reason to suppose that the change in Miss Pledge's duties was the cause of her breakdown.

Kilkerrin And The Telephone

To ask the Postmaster-General whether he will consider the advisability of establishing a telephone station at Kilkerrin, Connemara, which would be of considerable advantage to the people of that district engaged in the kelp industry.

I will have inquiry made and will communicate with the hon. Member. I am afraid, however, that it would be necessary to ask for a heavy guarantee.

Shotley Building Contract

To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state the names of the contractors who originally tendered for the buildings originally intended to he erected at Shotley to provide accommodation on shore for a boys' training establishment, and the amount of each tender; whether Colonel Raban is allowed a free hand by the Admiralty in giving work to the contractors without offering it for competitive tender; and whether Colonel Raban, a public servant, resents Parliamentary criticism of any course he chooses to adopt.

It is not the practice of the Admiralty to disclose the names of the contractors who tender for any particular work, or to make public the amounts of their tenders. The director of works and civil engineer-in-chief acts under the directions of the Board of Admiralty, who are responsible for Admiralty contracts.

Hadleigh Ray Oyster Beds

To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the town council of Southend have agreed to pay the owner of the Hadleigh Ray oyster beds £500 per annum for four years or so long as the corporation (Southend) are permitted to discharge crude sewage into the estuary, the owner meanwhile working his beds; whether the Local Government Board can permit a continuance of this practice fraught with so much danger to the public health; whether he is aware that some £20,000 sterling have been spent by the town council of Southend in recent years in defending their practice of discharging crude sewage into the estuary; and whether, in both the interests of the public health and of the ratepayers, he can see his way to order a public inquiry.

I have no information as to the agreement referred to, or as to the precise amount spent by the town council in defending the existing arrangements for the disposal of the sewage of the borough. It does not at present appear to me that there would be any advantage in my directing a public inquiry of the kind suggested.

Manchester Cap-Makers' Lock-Out

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the disturbances arising from a lock-out of cap-makers in Manchester, and to serious acts of violence committed by non-union men; whether he is aware that policemen are alleged to have unduly interfered with pickets when conducting themselves peacefully in connection with the dispute; and whether he will ask for an early report on the question, with a view to some action being taken.

My attention has not previously been drawn to this matter, and I do not know what foundation in fact there may be for the allegations to which the hon. Member refers. I will make inquiry without delay. But I may remind the hon. Member that it is the local authority which is responsible for the maintenance of order and for the conduct of the police.

Port Of Liverpool, Collector Of Customs

To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that Mr. D. P. Williams, collector, His Majesty's Customs, Port of Liverpool, will reach in November next the age limit of sixty-five fixed by the Order in Council of the 29th November, 1892, for the retirement of all civil servants; and whether it is proposed to extend his period of service, and, if so, upon what grounds.

The officer referred to will attain the age of sixty-five on the 28th November next, and he will then retire from the service in accordance with the provisions of the Order in Council.

Cooltober School Teachers

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he will ascertain on what grounds the Commissioners of National Education refuse increments of continued good service to Mr. John Quinn, principal teacher, Cooltober national school, Arva, county Cavan, and Mr. James O'Reilly, assistant teacher, New Ross, county Wexford.

The Commissioners of National Education have refused to award increment of continuous good service salary to Mr. John Quinn for reasons which appear to them to be sufficient. Mr. James O'Reilly was awarded an increment of such salary as from 1st November, 1906.

Dublin Resident Commission Of National Education

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that some years since a circular was issued by the Commissioners of National Education instructing their inspectors when in Dublin to call, if convenient, on the present resident commissioner at his office; and that several inspectors have since, in conformity with this circular, called to see the resident commissioner, and have been, without any reason assigned, refused an interview; and whether he will ascertain if the circular in question is still binding, so that inspectors may be spared the indignity of being told by the hall porters of Tyrone House that the resident commissioner declined to see them.

The circular to which the Question refers is still in force. I am informed that the resident commissioner receives inspectors who may call upon him in conformity with his wishes as communicated in the circular, unless he happens to be engaged on important business, at the time of the inspector's visit. The resident commissioner is not aware that any inspector has been refused an interview without reason assigned.

Drogheda Estate, Evicted Tenants

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have considered the application of Mrs. Donnelly, who claims reinstatement to a holding on the Drogheda estate, near Mountmellick, Queen's County, as representative of her father, Cornelius Bacon, the evicted tenant; and if so, with what result.

The Estates Commissioners to not appear to have received an application for reinstatement from Mrs. Donnelly.

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what decision the Estates Commissioners have arrived at in the case of Peter Lawrence, who was evicted from a holding on the estate of Lord Drogheda, near Mountmellick, Queen's County, about twenty-two years ago.

The Estates Commissioners have decided that they cannot interfere in this case. The holding in which the applicant seeks reinstatement has been purchased under the Land Acts by the occupying tenant, who appears to be applicant's sister.

Inspectors Of Irish National School

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that inspectors of national schools are prohibited, under pain of punishment, from going any distance outside their districts even between Saturday evening and Monday morning unless they have previously obtained special permission; what is the object of such a regulation in the case of men whose work is purely educational; and whether this restrictive enactment was copied from the code of the Royal Irish Constabulary.

The Commissioners of National Education inform me that, in the interests of the public service, they do not consider it desirable to make any statement as to the nature of, or the reasons for, any disciplinary regulations which they may have framed for the proper discharge of the duties of their inspectors or other officers.

Commissioners Of National Education

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can give a Return showing the ages and occupations of the Commissioners of National Education, and the ages and length of service of the higher officials acting under them.

The Government have no record of the ages and occupations of the Commissioners of National Education. The ages and length of service of the higher officials of the Board of National Education are stated in a Return presented in pursuance of an Order of this House, namely, Return No. 8 of the present Session.

Maintenance Of Irish Schools

To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the grounds on which the Treasury refused to provide the funds which the Commissioners of National Education state they asked for in their Report for the year 1906–7 in order to enable them to provide for the cleansing, heating, and repairing of schools, and the increase of initial salaries and the payment of increments; and if he can supply the exact terms of the proposals made by the Commissioners to the Treasury in respect to these matters.

I am afraid that I cannot conveniently add anything to the Answer which I gave to the hon. Member for East Down on 14th February last. It would be contary to practice to state the terms of communications between the Treasury and other Departments, and moreover 1 do not see that any possible advantage could be gained by doing so in the present case.

County Associations

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has issued instructions to Lords-Lieutenant and others with reference to the formation of county associations; and whether he will lay these instructions upon the Table of the House.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether county associations will be formed, and will undertake the duties imposed upon them by the Territorial Forces Act, simultaneously in all counties; and, if not, in what counties will the provisions of the said Act be first applied.

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has appointed, or intends to appoint, a special committee at the War Office to advise and assist the county associations; and what is, or will be, the composition of such committee.

The Lords-Lieutenant have already been invited to accept the presidencies of the associations. No instructions have been issued to them or others with reference to the formation of county associations, but it is hoped that it will shortly be possible to issue a draft model scheme for the formation of the associations for their consideration. As I have already stated, associations will, as far as possible, be formed simultaneously. A special committee, under the presidency of Lord Esher, is at present dealing with the formation of the associations, and will be in a position to give any necessary advice on the subject.

Officers And The Income-Tax

To ask the Secretary of State for War whether any instructions have been issued to officers of His Majesty's Forces relative to claims for abatement of income-tax on their pay or pensions under the provisions of the Finance Act, 1907; and, if so, whether the proper forms of claim have been supplied to, or are available for, such officers.

A special Army Order has been promulgated on this subject, and copies are in course of distribution to the Army. The provisional forms of claims have also been issued.

Questions In The House

Naval Programme

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the resolution as to the desirability of resuming the consideration of the question of the growing expenditure on armaments carried at The Hague Conference, and in view of his announcement as to the additional battleship as part of this year's shipbuilding programme, he now proposes to proceed with the construction of such ship.

I am afraid I can add nothing to the full statements which have already been made.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he considers it due to the House to answer this Question before Parliament rises?

If the hon. Gentleman has studied the speeches of the Secretary to the Admiralty in introducing the Navy Estimates and on Vote 8 he would have found there a clear answer.

If the Question is not answered before Parliament rises will some notification be made in the Press?

The Pacific Cable

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Admiralty was at any time consulted with regard to the route to be followed by the Pacific cable; and, if so, whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the correspondence exchanged on the subject.

The Admiralty were consulted as to the route. The correspondence is voluminous and deals with subjects that it would be unwise to divulge.

The Coastguard

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the changes which are being made in thepersonnel of the coastguard service, he will be prepared to grant a Return giving the names of the stations from which coastguardsmen have been withdrawn.

I will gladly give this information, but I think an unstarred Question would be more convenient than a Return.

Royal Commission On Indian Decentralisation

*

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is now in a position to give the terms of reference to the Royal Commission on Decentralisation and to circulate the correspondence with the Viceroy in Council as to the government of the provinces and as to the proposed formation of a Council of Notables.

Papers relating to the formation of Advisory Councils and kindred matters will, I hope, be in the bands of hon. Members by Monday evening. The King has been pleased to approve the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the relations now existing, for financial and administrative purposes, between the supreme Government and the various Provincial Governments in India, and between the Provincial Governments and the authorities subordinate to them; and to report whether by measures of decentralisation or otherwise those relations can he simplified and improved, and the system of government better adapted to meet the requirements and promote the welfare of the different provinces, and, without impairing its strength and unity, to bring the executive power into closer touch with local conditions.

*

Indian Military Charges

*

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any arrangement has been come to for the inquiry as to the allocation of military charges between the India Office and the War Office.

It has been arranged to refer this question to a Committee, constituted as follows:—Chairman, The right hon. Sir R. Romer, G.C.B.; Members, Lord Welby, G.C.B.; The right hon. Gerald Balfour; and, representing the War Office, General Sir W. G. Nicholson, K.C.B., and Sir G. Fleetwood Wilson, K.C.B.; and representing the India Office, Sir John Edge K.C., and Lieutenant-General Sir Beauchamp Duff, K.C.B., K.C.V.O. It is expected that the Committee will commence its sittings this autumn.

asked whether another Office much concerned in this matter—the Treasury—might not have a representative on the Committee.

I have always found that the Treasury is extremely capable of taking care of itself.

Calcutta Libel Action

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the dissatisfaction expressed in Calcutta at the action of the Lieutenant-Governor in secretly maintaining with public funds a private action for libel instituted by certain police officers against the IndianDaily News; and whether, for the future guidance of Governors and Lieutenant-Governors in India, he will issue general instructions that where accusations are made against the police or other Government servants the Government shall itself proceed against the accusers, or shall itself take other public measures to investigate the accusation, but that in no case shall the money of the Indian taxpayer be employed for the secret maintenance of private libel actions.

My attention has been drawn to the published reports of the case referred to. As I have already explained in previous Answers, the Government of Bengal acted in accordance with the ordinary rules, and I am not aware that there was any special secrecy in the matter. The question whether Government should allow its officers to take action in vindication of their official conduct, or should adopt the much more formidable course of taking action itself, must be decided on a consideration of all the circumstances of each case as it arises, and I do not propose to lay down any general rule. I may remind my hon. friend that the cost falls on the taxpayer whichever course is adopted.

Venezuelan Rubber Dispute

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information with regard to the reports from Georgetown, on the Venezuelan frontier, in regard to the alleged taking of rubber in British territory by Venezuelans: and whether a British force entered. Venezuelan territory and demanded the surrender of 40,000 lbs. of rubber.

My right hon. friend has requested me to answer this Question. I can only refer to the reply which I made yesterday to the hon. Members for Mid. Armagh and West Lanarkshire, to the effect that the Governor is making inquiries and will send home a full report.

Has the report been asked for by cable or post?

By cable. I do not think there is any reason to assign undue importance to the incident.

Asiatic Registration Act In The Transvaal

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the fact that General Botha has not seen his way to the carrying out of his promise to modify the regulations and soften the rigour of the Asiatic Registration Act, the Secretary of State will suggest that compensation be paid, out of the proceeds of the guaranteed loan, to those Indian merchants who may be willing to retire from the Transvaal rather than undergo the humiliations imposed by the Act.

The hon. Member will see by reference to page 9 of Paper 65 printed by order of the House of Lords that he does not quite correctly describe the attitude of General Botha. The Secretary of State has no official intimation that any Indian merchants propose to retire from the Transvaal, and in any case does not see his way to make the desired suggestion in view of the fact that he has already stated that he does not regard the matter of identification by finger prints as objectionable in itself and has not felt able to press the Transvaal Ministers further to reconsider their decision.

asked whether the Government had washed their hands of all responsibility in this matter and considered the effect which these regulations were likely to have on the loyal feeling of our subjects in India.

said that the Government were far from washing their hands of this question. The Government would do what they could from time to time with the resources at their disposal.

Would whites submit to the finger test?

Mortality Among Mine Labourers In The Transvaal

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the rate of mortality among the Kaffirs and among the Chinese, respectively, for the first six months of this year.

For the first three months of the year the average rate of mortality per 1,000 per annum was—Kaffirs, 31·661; Chinese, 16·375. The figure for whites was 20·051. Official figures for a later period are not available for Kaffirs; the average mortality for Chinese for the first six months of this year is 15·657. But in comparing the Mortality Returns of Chinese with Kaffirs some regard must be paid to the fact that a certain number of Chinese are repatriated as physically incapable. I notice that in the Report of the Superintendent of Foreign Labour for 1905–6 (page 32 of Cd. 3,338) it is stated that for that year those repatriated as physically incapable were 1,840 as compared with a total number of deaths, 935.

Is any record kept in the Kaffir Return of the number of natives from British Central Africa?

A careful record is kept of natives from British Central Africa. Whether a record is kept of Kaffirs who return to private life in their kraals, I do not think that is done, because naturally a Kaffir having taken his discharge goes back to his home. In regard to a remark I overheard to the effect that we do not care what happens to the Kaffirs, that is a gross and unfounded accusation.

Are any pains take to prevent Kaffirs who are unfit to work in the mines?

Yes, there are all sorts of precautions taken for the protection of the Kaffirs in the mines, and they have been steadily elaborated from month to month as experience has shown to be necessary.

For this reason numbers of Chinese who would have died had they served their full indentures go home before the time expires and die on board ship. Often they only serve six or twelve months.

Crimes By Chinese Coolies In South Africa

*

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will state how many of the total number of crimes committed in South Africa by Chinese coolies up to 31st July, 1907, were technical crimes and actually breaches of the Labour Ordinance, and how many were crimes in the usual acceptation of the term; how the record of Chinese coolies in this behalf, and subject to this explanation, compares with the record of other than Chinese inhabitants of South Africa for the same period; and what is the figure per mille of crime to population in either case.

Information as to the crimes committed by Chinese coolies in the Transvaal is only available up to 31st January, 1907. The crimes are classified in the monthly Returns which have been presented to Parliament, and to which I would refer the hon. Member. No classification of crimes is kept by the Transvaal Prisons Department, but a classification of sentences has been received, showing the number of Europeans, natives, Indians, and Chinese confined in Transvaal prisons on 30th June, 1906, and their sentences. Taking all sentences, the proportion to population per 1,000 shows the Chinese proportion to be about six times that of other races; but taking serious crimes—i.e., sentences of six months and over—the proportion is for European males, 3·35 per 1,000; for Chinese males, 4·36 per 1,000.

*

Do these figures include technical offences against the British Labour Ordinance?

Of course they include offences against the Labour Ordinance if they are punished by imprisonment.

Do I understand that the Return does not give the offences for which Chinamen are sentenced? In view of the fact that the records presented to this House contained an exact statement of the offences, misdemeanours or crimes committed, will the right hon. Gentleman see if he can get further Returns from the Transvaal to coincide with them?

said the Returns published by the Government in the Transvaal might possibly not be so full and elaborate as the Returns prepared by the Crown Colony officials under home instructions and in response to pressing inquiries in the House of Commons. He would he glad to suggest to the Secretary of State the propriety of making a request to the Transvaal Government with regard to continuing the records in question, but such requests ought to be limited. They ought not to send requests for information day by day.

The right hon. Gentleman has given no information as to crime among the British Indian subjects.

Am I mistaken in supposing that the Transvaal is a self-governing Colony?

I do not want to press the right hon. Gentleman unduly, but will he request the Transvaal Government to differentiate between actual crime and offences against the Labour Ordinances and regulations.

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Repatriation Of Chinese From The Transvaal

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now state the number of Chinese coolies working in the Transvaal gold mines whose contracts have already expired, and on what date it is intended to send them back to China, and in what ship.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to lay it before the House rises?

The Colonies And The Sugar Convention

I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will cause to be published the resolutions relative to the attitude of His Majesty's Government with regard to the Sugar Convention which have been received from bodies in the Colonies since the publication of Cd. 3565 of 1907, together with the covering despatches forwarding these resolutions.

There will probably be more resolutions with relative correspondence and the Secretary of State is unwilling to incur the expense of printing in instalments. I shall be happy to supply the hon. Member with a list of the resolutions if he desires it.

May I ask if after a lapse of two or three months the resolutions received will be printed together with the dispatches?

Discharged Transvaal Civil Servants

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether other Government Departments besides the Colonial Office will co-operate in finding places for those civil servants who have been discharged from the Transvaal during the last four months, especially for those who have been discharged expressly because they were not eligble for pensions in case of dismissal.

The Secretary of State does not think that the probability of other Departments in the Home Service being able to absorb any of the officials in question is sufficient to justify application to those Departments except in very special cases, which would, of course, be considered on their merits as they occur.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any idea of the number discharged who have not yet been able to obtain fresh positions?

Transvaal Indentured Labour Bill

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state when he will be in a position to inform the House of the details of the indentured labour legislation recently introduced in the Transvaal Parliament.

The Secretary of State has telegraphed for the details and I hope to be able to supply the information before the House arises.

West Indian Imports To Venezuela

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will lay Papers to show the progress of negotiations with the Venezuelan Government, with a view to securing the removal of the surtax of 30 per cent, on imports from the West Indian islands.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS
(Sir EDWARD GREY, Northumberland, Berwick)

His Majesty's Minister has not relaxed his efforts to induce the Venezuelan Government to remit the surtax, but hitherto without success. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by laying Papers on the subject.

Hague Conference Papers

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if Papers will shortly be laid dealing with the Hague Conference.

Papers will be laid in due course, when the Conference has terminated its labours.

Turkish Raids Into Persian Territory

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information with reference to the advance of Turkish troops into Persian territory; and whether any order for their recall has been given.

I beg to refer the hon. Member to the Answer given yesterday to the hon. Member for Mid. Armagh.

The Answer I gave yesterday was to the effect that it had, and that further representations were being made by His Majesty's Ambassador.

Macedonian Murders

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Government will have prepared and published statistics of the number of deaths and acts of violence perpetrated in Macedonia from the year 1899 to 1906, with particulars as to the number and nationality of the bands by which these acts were. committed.

I must refer the hon. Member to the Answer given to the Question asked by the hon. Member for Ripon on the 22nd April last,f in which I stated that no complete records of these occurrences were available previous to December, 1905, and furnished statistics of the deaths by violence which had occurred from that month up to the end of February of the current year.

Bombardment Of Casa Blanca

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the British Government secured any guarantee of compensation for damage to the property of British subjects before the bombardment and occupation of Casa Blanca took place; and whether the interests of British traders were in any way protected.

The hon. Member must recognise from the circumstances in which the bombardment of Casa Blanca took place that nobody could have any opportunity of securing before hand any guarantee of the nature to which he refers. I understand that all the protection that was possible under the circumstances has been afforded by the French and Spanish forces impartially to the interests of all Europeans, irrespective of nationality.

† See (4) Debates, clxxii., 1393.

Morocco-International Police Force

I beg to ask the secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made in the creation of an international police force in the coast towns of Morocco.

The position is regards the police force contemplated by the Algeciras Act is as follows—The Inspector-General and the French and Spanish instructors have been selected and their appointments have been approved by the Sultan. The regulations provided for under Article 4 of the Algeciras Act have been drawn up and agreed to by the foreign Powers, and are at present awaiting the Sultan's approval.

Are we to understand that until this police force is organised the interests of British subjects will be entrusted to the chance protection of French or Spanish warships?

The French and Spaniards are providing for the protection of the ports until the police force contemplated can be called into being.

Girls' Schools At Khartoum

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is yet in a position to give the House any information as to the schools for girls at Khartoum, appropriation of land there by the Soudan Government, and the possible application of Wakf property to purposes of education.

As this Answer is a very long one, I hope the hon. Member will allow me to circulate it with the Votes.

Egyptian Civil Service

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state the constitution of the board for selecting candidates for the Egyptian Civil Service, and give details as to the candidates selected.

The report asked for on this subject has not yet been received from His Majesty's Acting Agent and Consul-General at Cairo.

Egyptian Factory Legislation

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet any information as to the practicability of obtaining from the Egyptian Court of Appeal power to apply Egyptian factory legislation to Europeans within the limits of police law.

The report asked for on this subject has not yet been received from His Majesty's Acting Agent and Consul-General at Cairo.

Egyptian Ministry Of Public Instruction —British Officials And The Arabic Language

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state what knowledge of Arabic is required of British officials under the Egyptian Ministry of Public Instruction and give the statistics of the examination; and can he also give any information as to the rate of pension and salaries payable to native and British Judges respectively, and as to the inspectors appointed in the Slave Trade Repression Department in Egypt.

Newfoundland Fisheries Dispute

I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether amodus vivendi has been proposed to the United States in regard to the Newfoundland fisheries by this Government; and, if so, will he state what are the terms of themodus vivendi and if they have had the approval of the Newfoundland Government.

Negotiations are still proceeding, but in their present stage His Majesty's Government are unable to give any information beyond that which has been already given in reply to previous Questions on the subject.

Will the terms of themodus vivendi be submitted to the Newfoundland Government?

Negotiations are passing with the Newfoundland and United States Governments at the present time.

British Commercial Agents Abroad

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the event of giving effect to the recommendations of the Report of Sir Eldon Gorst and Mr. Llewellyn Smith with respect to commercial agents abroad, he will consider the advisability of including in the staff an official competent to inquire into labour conditions in the great manufacturing countries on the lines of the Labour Department of the Board of Trade.

I find that the object aimed at by my hon. friend is already attained. I understand that the staff of the Labour Department of the Board of Trade already includes expert investigators competent to carry out inquiries of the nature suggested, and that inquiries are at present being made by them with regard to labour conditions in Germany and France. Such investigations are carried out in co-operation with His Majesty's representatives abroad.

The Bahr-El Ghazel

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now able to state whether Meridi has been evacuated; and, if so, on what date.

His Majesty's Agent and Consul-General at Cairo reported on 21st June last that all posts in the Bahr-el-Ghazal held by Congolese troops were evacuated by the 3rd of that month.

The Truck Acts

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to cases in which employers of labour are establishing the custom of making weekly deductions from workers' wages to meet the cost of insurance against the Workmen's Compensation Act; and whether, in view of the provisions of the Truck Act and of the Workmen's Compensation Act respecting contracting-out schemes, he proposes to take any action in the matter.

My attention has been called to some cases in which deductions have been made for the purpose mentioned in the Question. As the hon. Member is aware, a Committee is now engaged in inquiring into the working of the Truck Acts, and I am informed that they have taken evidence on this point. I expect to receive their Report before long, and will then give the matter my careful consideration.

Hoxton Crippled Girls Factory

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with reference to the employment of crippled girls at Hoxton to work normal factory hours for 3s. to 5s. a week, whether he proposes to take any steps to prevent the precedent of working cripples for full factory hours; whether he can describe the physical condition of the girls who have been certified by the certifying surgeon to work such hours; whether he will take any action upon the certificate granted by a certifying surgeon in this case; and whether he will inform the House of the contents of any reports made by the lady factory inspectors in this particular case.

*

The question of the fitness of these workers to continue work for the ordinary factory hours is one for the certifying surgeon, who has full power either to refuse a certificate or to qualify his certificate by conditions. In two cases he has certified girls as fit for half-time employment only, and has also advised that a woman should work half-time. As regards the present condition of the workers, 1 am informed that the disease which caused the crippling is either healed or quiescent. I may add that I am informed that arrangements have been made for the certifying surgeon to examine all the workers once a fortnight. When I have received the additional reports for which I have called I will consider whether any further action is necessary. An regards the last paragraph of the Question, the reports of inspectors are invariably treated as confidential, but should, of course, be prepared to consider any request for information that may be made to me.

Is it not the case that these crippled girls work in an underground factory?

Yes, but it is not against the Factory Acts. Some defects have been discovered, and I hope other arrangements will be made. I am glad my hon. friend has called attention to the matter.

asked if it was not a very prevalent custom for people interested in public institutions to have children to work for the purpose of competing with the children of parents who were endeavouring to bring them up in an honest way, and if public subscriptions were not solicited for that purpose.

replied he was aware that such cases existed, and if any could be brought to his knowledge he would have them fully inquired into.

Metropolitan Police

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether a military man has been appointed recently to the position of chief constable of the Metropolitan police; whether the gentleman appointed has had any previous experience of police work; and whether, before making this appointment, any consideration was given to the advisability of promoting to the position one of the present superintendents or appointing a person trained in the police work of a large city.

Yes, Sir. Colonel Edwards was appointed chief constable in 1906. He had had previous police experience as a divisional commandant of South African Constabulary, besides having held several appointments of great responsibility in the course of his military career. Before any appointment of the kind is made the question is thoroughly considered in all its bearings.

Motor Bus Casualties

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the inconvenience caused to traffic in the City of London through the breakdown of a motor omnibus in Fleet Street at about 11 o'clock p.m. on Thursday last, such derelict omnibus not being removed until after dinner-time on the following day, a period of over twelve hours; and, seeing that this is an example of the manner in which the companies have made arrangements for the removal of such obstructions to traffic, whether the police will be instructed to report instances in which broken-down motor omnibuses are allowed to obstruct the roadway for prolonged and unreasonable periods, with a view to some action being taken against the companies concerned in order that such inconvenience to traffic may be minimised, particularly in such narrow and congested thoroughfares as Fleet Street and others within the City boundary.

I am informed that the motor omnibus in question broke down at 12.15 a.m., the rear-axle being fractured; that the employees of the London Road Car Company began repairs at 10.30 a.m. and that the omnibus was removed at 2 p.m. All such cases are observed and reported on by the police; and proceedings have been successfully instituted in case of unreasonable delay in removing the cause of obstruction.

South Western Police Court—Case Of Albert Smith

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to a case tried before the magistrate sitting at the South-Western Court on Friday, 9th August, in which the prisoner, Albert Smith, charged with disorderly behaviour, alleged that the constable concerned in the case was drinking outside a public-house, and struck him without any provocation; whether the magistrate, despite the fact that the prisoner's statement was supported by the evidence of two witnesses, declined to accept such evidence; and whether, in justice to all concerned, he will cause inquiry to be made into the matter.

I have made full inquiries into this case, and I am satisfied that the conviction was right and that there was no ground for the allegations which were made against the police.

Clauchland Point, Arran

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the urgency of establishing a lighted buoy or beacon on the southern extremity of Clauchland Point in the Island of Arran; and whether he will recommend to the Northern Lights Commissioners that they should include the cost of its erection in their Estimates for 1908–9.

The importance of establishing such a light hiss been more than once urged upon the Board of Trade, and my right hon. friend will be happy to communicate with the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses as the hon. Member suggests.

Brake Accidents On Railways

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can give the number of fatal and non-fatal acccidents during the three years, 1904–5–6, arising from the use of a brake-stick by the workman in pinning down the brake, and from the pressure of the workman's body upon the brake for the same purpose; and if he is able to give the number occurring on private sidings and on railway companies' lines respectively.

No separate record has been kept of such accidents for 1904 and 1905, but in 1906 no fatal and fifty-three non-fatal accidents to railway servants whilst using a brake-stick were reported to the Board of Trade. I have no information as to the number of these due to the pressure of the man's body on the brake-stick or as to the number of accidents in private sidings to persons other than the servants of a railway company.

Excessive Working Hours

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that eight dining-car attendants signed on duty at Euston station on Friday, 9th August, at 9 a.m. and signed off at 9 p.m. on Saturday, 10th August, working in all some thirty-six hours, and that one of these attendants was a youth sixteen years of age; whether these employees were paid for overtime; and, if so, at what rate; and whether, under these circumstances, he will introduce some Amendment to the Railway Regulations (Hours of Labour) Act, 1893, to prevent a recurrence of such matters in future.

The Board of Trade will communicate with the railway company on the subject, and I will inform the hon. Member of the result.

Will the Board of Trade take into consideration the hours worked by the staff employed in this House—and in particular by the female attendants in the tea-room, and make representations to the authorities concerned?

This department does not come under the supervision of the Board of Trade.

Diphtheria Anti-Toxin

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is in a position to make any statement with reference to the supply of diphtheria anti-toxin on the part of local authorities for the treatment of those who are not in a position to buy it themselves; and whether he will draw the attention of -the local authorities to the power given them under Section 133 of the Public Health Act, 1875, 38 and 39 Vic., c. 55, which enables them to provide medicine and medical assistance to the poor of their districts.

*

I am advised that the enactment to which my hon. friend refers, and a similar enactment in the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, enable sanitary authorities, with the sanction of the Local Government Board, to provide a temporary supply of diphtheria antitoxin for the poorer inhabitants of their districts, and medical assistance in connection therewith. I propose to issue a general Order giving sanction to such provision by sanitary authorities subject to suitable conditions. The Order is in preparation.

The Aged And Deserving Poor In Workhouses

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board respecting the circular issued by his Department in August, 1900, stating that aged deserving persons should not be urged to enter the workhouse at all, but should be relieved by having adequate outdoor relief granted to them, whether his information shows that guardians act upon the circular; and whether pending other promised provision for the aged poor, he will consider the issue of a further circular to guardians suggesting reasonable outdoor assistance sufficient to meet the costs of shelter and food in these cases.

*

The view expressed in the circular was, I think, somewhat more restricted than that stated in the Question. My information tends to show that action has been taken as the result of it. I think that any question of issuing any further circular on the subject to which my hon. friend refers should be deferred pending the Report of the Royal Commission on the Poor Law.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware I have quoted his exact words from the circular?

*

I shall be pleased to hand the hon. Member a copy of the original circular, which I think he will find bears out my interpretation.

Metropolitan Poor Fund Receivership

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the Receivership of the Metropolitan Poor Fund is a poor law appointment, and comes under the rule as to compulsory retirement at sixty-five years of age; and, if so, whether there are any reasons while the rule is suspended in the case of the present Receiver.

*

There is no rule requiring the Receiver to retire at the age of sixty-five.

*

Cost Of Poor Law Administration

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state what portion of the £14,000,000 spent on Poor Law administration last year was devoted to the payment of salaries of officials.

The sum which was expended in the year ended at Lady-Day, 1906, in respect of the salaries, superannuation allowances, and rations of the officers and servants of the several Poor Law Unions, and which was included in the £14,218,598 expended in respect of the relief of the poor in that year, was —2,478,660.

Southend Medical Officer

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is in a position to state the reasons why the medical officer of health of Southend has resigned his appointment; whether this resignation is in any way due to the desire of the Corporation of Southend to reduce the salary attached to this appointment; whether any reduction of salary has been sanctioned by the Local Government Board; whether the medical officer of this town has to devote the whole of his time to the duties of his office; and, if so, will the Local Government Board require such a salary being paid as will secure the appointment of a qualified and competent official.

I do not understand that this officer resigned his appointment. The period for which he was appointed expired on the 18th instant, and hence it was necessary that the appointment should be renewed or a fresh appointment made. No sanction on my part has been given to a reduction in the salary, nor had I heard anything on the subject until to-day. I have, however, this morning received a communication from the Town Clerk to the effect that the town council have reappointed the officer for three months at £600 a year, but that they propose to advertise for applications for the post at a salary of £500 a year. I gather that the present officer declined to accept reappointment on these terms. It is intended that the person to be appointed as medical officer of health shall also act as medical superintendent of the hospitals for infectious diseases and as medical officer of the Education Committee. Subject to this, he will be required to devote the whole of his time to his duties as medical officer of health. Whether the proposals of the Town Council are such as I can properly approve is a matter which will receive my consideration.

The London Unemployed

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will use his influence with the Central Unemployed Body in London to increase the number of labour exchange registries and enlarge the staff of these offices, so as to cope with the distress which arises during the winter months, especially among the casual waterside labourers; and whether he will issue circulars to employers of labour, especially along the riverside, in order that there may be greater knowledge and co-operation in this scheme.

The Unemployed Workmen Act enables the Central Unemployed Body to deal with this matter, and I will bring the suggestion of my hon. friend under their notice. Any circulars of the kind referred to in the last part of the Question should, I think, be issued by them.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of calling a conference of representative officers of the various organisations in order to fix the staff before the coming. winter?

;

Do not the trade unions object to employers of labour employing. the unemployed?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of establishing more than three workshops for women in London during the coming winter?

Labour Bureaux

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that during the month of July last 3·7 per cent. of the members of the trade unions making returns were described as unemployed; that the total number of situations filled by labour bureaux during the same period in London and the provinces was 2,952, being 28 per cent. of the applications received; that the municipal bureau of Munich alone finds employment for over 4,000 applicants per month, or 60 per cent. of the applications received; and whether, under the circumstances, he would encourage, by every means in his power, the better organisation of these institutions in England, with a view to the assistance of the unemployed.

I am aware of the facts stated in the Question. I shall be ready to consider any suitable suggestions which my hon friend may wish to make for the purpose which he has in view.

asked if employers of labour did not utilise the glut in the labour market to get work performed at starvation rates of wages. [No Answer was returned.]

Will the right hon. Gentleman send a representative to Germany to study the working of the labour bureaux there.

Hampstead Sorting Office

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the petitions from the staff of the Hampstead Sorting Office asking for a revision of the duties at that office; and, if not, will he make inquiries, with a view to such action being taken as will allay the present grievance of the men concerned.

I have not received any representation from the staff of the Hampstead Sorting Office respecting their duties, but the matter was discussed between them and their Postmaster. A revision of force is now under consideration, and the hon. Member may rest assured that in reviewing the arrangement of the duties the representations made by the staff will be given due weight.

Montgomeryshire Border School Children

*

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether Montgomeryshire children are to be excluded from the non-provided school upon the Shropshire border at Llanymynech and sent to Llandysilio, in the school of which village, which is upwards of a mile from Llanymynech, there is no room for them; and whether he will represent to the Shropshire authority the desirability of enlarging the Llanymynech School if it is too small, in order to the maintenance of the arrangement whereby the schools of either county take in the children of either county without charge.

I have communicated with both local authorities concerned suggesting a conference before any decisive action is taken, with a view, if possible, of coming to some arrangement whereby the necessity of excluding any large number of children may be avoided.

School Inspectors' Duties

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education, at what date, on whose authority, and for what reason, the paragraph permitting first-class sub-inspectors to perform all the duties hitherto allotted to second inspectors, with the exception of signing reports, was omitted from the form or circular issued to those officers on their promotion.

The paragraph was struck out on 4th January, 1902, by the authority of the Board of Education for the time being, at a time when my hon. friend was Permanent Secretary of that Board. Presumably it was struck out because it was no longer required.

Education Building Grant

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education if the new schools to be erected under the special grant of £100,000 will belong to the Board of Education or to the local education authorities.

The schools in question will belong to the local education authority, out Section 7 of the Regulations makes provision for the repayment of the building grant, in the event of the Board so requiring, if the building is used for purposes other than those of a public elementary school at any time or in any manner which will interfere with the work of a public elementary school, or if the school ceases to be recognised as a public elementary school.

Will the grant be distributed in lumps or doled out as applications come in? Will Wales receive a fixed grant out of it?

Over Peover School

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that on 22nd December, 1905, the governors of Over Peover endowed school passed a resolution in favour of transferring to the estate of the late Sir Philip Mainwaring a plot of land attached to the school which had been held by the governors for the purposes of a school garden since 1874; that the parish council of Over Peover dispute the power of the governors to make this transfer; that the resolution of the governors was only carried by a majority of two, and that of the governors present and voting in the majority, two were members of the Mainwaning family; and whether he proposes to hold a public inquiry into the natter in dispute.

This matter is now engaging the attention of the Board, but I am not in a position to make any statement on the subject.

Mortomley Catholic School

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he has taken steps to acquaint the managers of the Mortomley Catholic School with the decision of the Board of Education; and what further steps has he taken to compel the local education authority to hand over the salaries due to the teachers.

I have informed the local authority that the requirements of the Board of Education as to the playground of this school have been complied with so far as is at present possible, and a copy of this letter was sent to the managers of the school. I have been informed that the local authority would pay the sums due to the teachers, and I can only suppose that any delay which has occurred in so doing is attributable to the holidays. I do not think any further action on my part will be called for.

Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm the rumour that the money has actually been paid?

I should think it highly probable. I am expecting a telegram on the point.

Abstractor Class Clerks

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the present number of senior assistant clerks of the abstractor class; and how many members of that grade with twenty years service and upwards have been promoted to the Second Division or other grades since the present Government came into office.

I have no information on the first part of the Question beyond that given in the published Estimates. As regards the second part the Civil Service Commissioners inform me that since the present Government came into office the following promotions have been made of Assistant Clerks (Old Class) with twenty years service and upwards, viz.:—To the Second Division, 16; to other Grades, 12. Total 28.

Treasury Consultative Committee

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, if he is aware that by Order in Council, dated 12th August, 1890, the Commissioners of the Treasury are required to appoint at the beginning of each calendar year four principal officers of Public Departments to serve as a consultative committee upon questions of staff, salary, and organisation; will he say who are the members of this committee for the present year, and also on how many occasions during the last fifteen years the committee has been constituted; and, if there have been any years when it has not been appointed, will he state why the Commissioners of the Treasury have not carried out the definite instructions of the Order in Council.

No occasion has arisen for the services of the Committee in question for several years past, and the Treasury therefore considered it unnecessary to nominate any members.

The Parliamentary Debates Contract

I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in renewing the contract for the ensuing session for the reporting and printing of the Parliamentary Debates, the Government will have due regard to the recommendation of the Select Committee which considered the matter that the claims of the existing reportorial staff should not be overlooked in any fresh arrangement which might be made by the Government.

The arrangement made for next session is, in effect, an extension of the existing contract. I read the recommendation of the Select Committee as applying to a new system of reporting of the kind contemplated in their Report.

English Blood Cattle In Argentina

I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he will say whether the recent practices in connection with the exportation of English blood cattle to Argentina have come under his notice; will he say what new steps have been taken to deal with the spread of tuberculosis in that country owing to these practices; and further, as the tuberculine test has admittedly broken down, can the importation of cattle into this country, possibly consumed with tuberculosis, be effectually guarded against.

The Answer to the first part of my hon. friend's Question is in the affirmative. I understand that in consequence of the malpractices which have been dis- covered, the Argentine Government propose to take over the quarantine station and make it a Government institution, to control the importation and sale of tuberculine, and to increase the penalties for infringements of the Animal Sanitary Law. With regard to the last part of my hon. friend's Question, I may point out that the statutory requirement of slaughter at the ports of all animals imported into this country affords a safeguard against the introduction of tuberculous cattle.

Duke Of York's School

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works when an announcement will be made as to the disposal of the site of the Duke of York's School.

THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS

I have not yet seen the Report of the Committee on this question, and cannot make any statement until the matter has been further considered.

War Office Buildings In Pall Mall

I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works what rental, if any, is now being paid for the War Office buildings in Pall Mall; and when he can state the policy of the Government in regard to the disposal of the site.

The old War Office buildings in Pall Mall are Crown property, and the ultimate disposal of the site will rest with the Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, under the direction of the Treasury, and not with my Department. For the portion of the property still hired by my Department from the Office of Woods a rent of £380 15s. per annum is being paid under an unexpired lease.

Scottish Missive System

I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the missive system in Scotland will be issued before the end of the Session.

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND

I have now received the Report. It shall be presented without delay and then sent to the printers.

Anti-Catholic Lectures In Ayrshire

I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been called to the peregrinations of an anti-Catholic lecturer calling himself MacDonald; whether he is aware that this man's incitements have been frequently followed by riot and disorder in Irvine and Kilbirnie; whether he has been twice prosecuted in Ayrshire for using language calculated to provoke a breach of the peace; and what steps the police propose to take to put a stop to his conduct?

I understand that the facts are as stated. Cases arising out of the most recent alleged breach of the peace are to be tried in the burgh Court, Kilwinning, to-day, and the result of the trials will be reported to me. The constabulary have MacDonald's conduct under strict observation, and will continue to give the matter the closest vigilance.

Argentine Cattle Trade

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is aware of a combination in Argentina to defeat the national laws against the sale in that country of imported tuberculous cattle; and, in view of the importance to Ireland of the export of Irish blood cattle, will steps be taken to secure that the Irish breeders will suffer the least possible loss, and that the combination and those implicated will be exposed in the fullest way with a view to safeguarding this Irish industry?

THE VICE - PRESIDENT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE FOR IRELAND

The Department have seen certain newspaper reports on this subject. The matter will be kept in view, but at present there are no indications that its developments will prejudicially affect Irish exporters.

Irish Fishing Industry

I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture for Ireland whether he has observed, from the last Report of his Department, that there is a steady decrease in the number of persons engaged in the fishing industry in Ireland and in the quantity and value of the fish taken; and will he inform the House as to the steps he proposes taking with a view to the development of the fishing industry on the Irish coasts.

The facts are as stated in the Question. The immediate cause of the shortage in fish landed was the stormy weather which prevailed in the autumn of 1906. Modern methods of fishing tend towards the employment of few men in proportion to the quantity of fish landed, and the general decline in population of Ireland has made itself felt in some maritime districts. This question is under consideration by the Royal Commission now inquiring into the condition of the West.

Vernersbridge Assault Case

I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he can state why the men arrested in connection with the assault case at Vernersbridge, county Armagh, have not been allowed out on bail, seeing that the doctor of one of the assaulted men has certified that his life is not in danger; and whether he will give directions for their immediate release.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND

The police report that of the six men arrested in connection with the assault case at Vernersbridge, three, against whom no serious overt act was proved, were admitted to bail, but that the other three were remanded in custody, as they were believed to be the chief assailants of the injured men. The local doctor certified that the life of one of the injured men was not in immediate danger, but, notwithstanding this the magistrates did not feel themselves justified in accepting bail for their appearance at the subsequent hearing, and they were remanded in custody until the 22nd instant. The remand expires this day, and now that the medical reports are more favourable, it is very probable that the magistrates will accept bail. They, however, have the responsibility of deciding the question. 1 have no power to give directions to them, and without a more intimate acquaintance with the facts than I at present possess, would not attempt to interfere with their discretion.

Irish Trade With Curacoa

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that, in consequence of the special reference made to Irish trade by the British Consul at Curacoa in his Report for the year 1905, the Consul is now in a position to state that since his last Report was published a manufacturer of biscuits and cakes in Ireland communicated with him, that some orders have been secured for the firm, and that the biscuits gave entire satisfaction; and whether he will bring this successful result to the notice of those British Consuls who are content with making the bald statement that there is no direct trade between Ireland and their respective districts, and apparently make no effort even to indicate in their Reports what possible openings there are for Irish trade.

The Answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. His Majesty's Consuls were instructed in 1905 to report on the direct trade relations between Ireland and the countries in which they resided. In 1906, His Majesty's representatives were instructed to approach the Governments to which they were accredited with a view to the separate classification of imports of Irish goods. And the attention of any Consuls who do not comply with the instructions will be called to them.

Irish Trade With Hamburg

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the British Consul-General at Hamburg, in his recent Report, states that it is not possible to furnish Returns of the trade between Ireland and Hamburg, as no special statistical Returns of the imports from or of the exports to Irish ports are drawn up there; that in the same Report Vice-Consul Renck, of Harburg, is able to state that 1,300 tons of kainit were exported from Harburg to Ireland in 1906; can he say what special sources of information were available to a Vice-Consul at a small port in the same consular district which were not available to the Consul General at the important port of Hamburg; and whether valuable information for Irish traders could be obtained if special efforts were made, in view of the fact that there is direct trade between Hamburg and at least one Irish port.

I will communicate with His Majesty's Consul-General at Hamburg on this matter.

Irish-Owned Vessels In Hamburg Port

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs can he state how many Irish owned vessels entered the port of Hamburg in 1906; what was their net register tonnage; whether, in view of the statements in the current Hamburg Consular Report, he can state whether any inquiries were made by the British Consul-General as to the nature of the cargoes carried by these Irish-owned vessels trading between Irish ports and Hamburg; and whether, in order that the Hamburg Consular Report for 1907 may be of some use to Irish traders, ho will request that special attention will be given to the collection of this information.

I have not got this information, but I will ask the Consul-General for it.

Irish Provident Assurance Company, Limited

I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the manner in which the Irish Provident Assurance' Company, Limited, has been worked; is he aware that this company has collected in Ireland, and mainly from poor people, over £350,000 at a cost of £330,000, and that its funds are invested in the names of its directors, who are also salaried officials, who are at liberty to convert such funds to any use they please, and that those men are at present endeavouring to convert short-term endowment policies which are on the eve of maturity into house-purchase policies under a term of thirty 3 ears in order to evade their liabilities; and whether an inquiry will be held into those matters in order to protect the people who have invested their money in this company.

The attention of the Board of Trade has been called from time to time to the affairs of the Irish Provident Assurance Company, Limited, but I am not aware of the circumstances referred to by the hon. Member. As stated in the Answer given on 23rd April last to the hon. Member for West Kerry, the only power of inquiry vested in the Board of Trade is that, under Sections 56 and 57 of the Companies Act, 1862, of appointing an inspector upon the application of members holding not less than one-fifth part of the share capital of the company for the time being issued.

Kilrusheighter Letter Box

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that in August, 1904, an evening collection was instituted from a letter. box at Kilrusheighter, near Templeboy, county Sligo, but that the collection was discontinued on 10th January, 1906, on the ground that two private individuals refused to continue payment of a guarantee, and will he say whether the amount of correspondence from the letter-box was not sufficient to cover the cost of an evening collection; what steps, if any, were taken to ascertain the amount of correspondence from the letter-box; is it usual to insist on the payment of a guarantee where the amount of correspondence covers the cost of collection or exceeds it; does the Post Office Department always insist on a guarantee where a loss is apprehended; is he aware that Kilrusheighter district is large and populous, and that the accommodation asked for is greatly needed; and will he have this matter investigated and re considered.

I fear I can add nothing to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member's previous Question on the 5th of December last, and in the letters which I addressed to him on the 30th October and the 13th December last.

The All-Red Route

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the feeling entertained by many Members of this House against the proposal to establish by means of the public funds an all-red route from Great Britain to Australasia across Canada, or further to subsidise any steamship lines, he will arrange that this subject shall be discussed in this House before the Government in any way pledge themselves to the Colonial Governments to provide funds for the support of such schemes.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

The proposal to which my hon. friend refers is still under consideration. If, on examination, any such scheme was found to be feasible, no arrangement would be binding until approved by the House of Commons.

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman meant that the House would be consulted before the Government was committed to this scheme.

No, Sir. But if the Government look favourably on any scheme it will be understood that its favour is subject to the approval of the House of Commons.

New Hebrides Convention

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state what legislation is necessary before the New Hebrides Convention can come into operation.

His Majesty's Government are advised that no legislation is necessary.

Belfast Labour Disputes—Board Of Trade Arbitrament

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the result of official intervention in the recent trade dispute in Belfast, and in view of the unanimity of public sentiment in favour of such intervention, the Government will consider the advisability of appointing a permanent board of arbitration having full power to interfere in and assist in the settlement of such trades disputes as may arise in the future.

The official intervention in the recent trades disputes in Belfast was taken in accordance with the powers conferred under the Conciliation Act, which the Board of Trade are always ready to exercise when the circumstances render it desirable for them to do so. I have no reason to believe that the appointment of a permanent board of arbitration would be of greater service than the Conciliation Act, which enables the Board of Trade to take action by various methods with the object of preventing or terminating disputes. I am informed that during the past two years the Board of Trade have taken action in forty-seven disputes, in most of which their intervention has been successful.

asked whether it was not the fact that in this case the offer of the Board of Trade to arbitrate was only accepted by the employers after two lives had been lost, and whether the Government would consider the advisability of giving compulsory powers to this conciliation board.

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the trade unions of the country were opposed to compulsory arbitration. [No Answer was returned.] The following Question was answered in the House on Tuesday, August 20th.

Post Office Basket Contracts

I beg to ask the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a number of the baskets which Messrs. Harrison, Grantham, contracted to make for his Department were made by a sub-letting arrangement contrary to the custom of the trade; whether sub-letting is in accordance with the conditions of the contract; whether he can ascertain if 3s. 7d. is the rate fixed by the workmen's federation for the baskets,' for which the firm paid the men only 2s. 6d.; and whether he will receive and consider other information on the subject from the workmen's society.

I would refer my hon. friend to my answer to his Question of 19th ultimo. I then informed him that I would carefully consider any information bearing on the Question which he, or the Workmen's Federation, desired to put before me. I have not, however, received any further representation in regard to the matter.

The Withdrawal Of The Scottish Land Bill

I beg to ask the Prime Minister a Question of which I have given him private notice —namely, whether he is in a position to make any statement in connection with what passed in another place yesterday on the subject of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Bill.

I beg also to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the fact that the Government have withdrawn the Bill and that a Bill for amending and extending the Crofters Holdings (Scotland) Act was promised in the King's Speech at the beginning of the present Parliament, it is intended to give effect to that promise by introducing land legislation for the Highlands of Scotland early next session.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY
(Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Stirling Burghs)

What I understand happened with regard to this Bill in another place was this. I gather from the ordinary sources of information that their Lordships entered upon a discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill, and that, after it had proceeded at considerable length, a Motion was made that the debate be adjournedsine die, in order that they might become acquainted with the provisions of the English Small Holdings Bill, which was then on its passage through this House. In the course of that discussion there had been indications given of the view taken by the Opposition—the great majority of the Peers in the other place, hut no definite statement was made of the ultimate decision arrived at by the Opposition. But yesterday a definite announcement of that sort was made, and it appeared that the intention was, after the Second Reading of the Bill, to transform it practically into a wholly new Bill. There was to be a recognition of the necessity of the clauses dealing with the part of the country at present under the Crofters Act, and some intention, apparently, of extending the powers and areas under those Acts. There was an indication that on no account would their Lordships be advised by the Opposition to adhere to the provisions in the Bill setting up a Land Court, which we consider as vital. The further point was that certain provisions of the English Bill were to be engrafted on the Scottish Bill in order that Scotland might have the advantage of the better state of things which would be created in England. That being so, we had to consider our position with regard to the Bill. For the policy announced by the Opposition there was no authority whatever from Scotland. In fact, the very proposal showed a cynical disregard of the wishes and desires and wants of the people of Scotland as represented by those who speak for them in this House. As a matter of fact, those proposals would require substantial consideration. I may mention one fact that really influenced us on this part of the case. If you are not to adopt the proposal that we make to extend the system of the Crofters Acts to the whole of Scotland, you must select the parts of Scotland to which the provisions of the Crofters Act and the system of rural adjustment under it should be extended. That has been a matter before the people of Scotland and before this House for many years, and everyone has recognised the difficulty of discriminating when we come to that further procedure; and if that was to be entered upon it would be a matter not of days, but of weeks, or even of months, before it could be properly defined. I mention that by way of showing the futility of the course which was proposed. This being the object—to change the Bill entirely—the Second Reading appeared to us to be an utter and absolute farce. Furthermore, seeing that neither the Government nor the majority in this House would, on any condition whatever, agree to these proposals, it was totally unnecessary at this time of the session for the House of Lords to waste further time in considering the Bill, because these were proposals which the House of Commons, rightly or wrongly, representing as they are entitled to represent—the majority of Scottish Members on this side of the House may be regarded as representing—the Scottish people, could not entertain, or whose consideration even could be calmly acquiesced in. Therefore, it comes to this, that the question is forced upon us—Who is to control the legislation with regard to the vital interests of the people of Scotland? Is it those who are authorised by the people of Scotland to speak for them, or is it noble Lords in another place and a small section of this House who sympathise with the noble Lords? I trust there will be no doubt whatever what answer must be given to that question; and we abandon what would have been a farce, the proposal that further progress should be made with this Bill in those circumstances, and with those avowed intention's on behalf of the commanding majority in the other House. We abandon the further progress of this Bill with the greatest regret, but the provisions which are thus objected to will be reintroduced at an early date and will be passed through this House in as speedy a manner as possible, and then we shall invite the other House either honestly to reject these provisions or to pass the Bill with reasonable Amendments consistent with its main purpose and principles. As I have said, it is a question of the future control of Scottish affairs, and on that question we have no doubt what our course is.

Under the guise of answering a Question, the right hon. Gentleman has pronounced a manifesto to which I have not the least objection, I need hardly say; only I presume it will, by the practice of this House, be permitted to me, after the procedure which the right hon. Gentleman has thought fit to take, to travel beyond the limits which would ordinarily be regarded as proper in the mere putting of a supplementary Question. The right hon. Gentleman terminated his address by using an epithet which suggested that in the course they have pursued the other House was not acting honestly. I leave it to this House to decide whether that is either a convenient or a decorous method of commenting upon another place. I do not suppose the Members of that other place will take much umbrage at anything which falls from the right hon. Gentleman. What is the course which the right hon. Gentleman describes as something less than honest which the House of Lords has pursued? I have no better and no worse sources of information than the right hon. Gentleman upon this subject; but from such sources of information as are open, either to me or to him, I gather that what the House of Lords have done is simply to offer to the Government, and, what is much more important, to the people of Scotland in the first place, as regards that part of Scotland where the conditions do not differ in any sense whatever from the conditions in England, that measure of reform which the Government think enough for England. As regards that part of Scotland where the conditions differ from England, I understand the House of Lords to have offered to pass a Bill amending the existing Crofters Acts, which, at all events so far as it goes, I understand to meet with the general acceptance of every Gentleman in this House who represents a crofting constituency. And, as the right hon. Gentleman has, apparently, laid it down as a proposition that the House of Lords is never to be permitted to do anything which is not approved by those who represent particular areas, and as I presume, therefore, it ought to do everything which is desired to be done by gentlemen representing particular areas, I should have thought their fundamental duty, on the constitutional lines laid down by the right hon. Gentleman, would have been to accept for the crofting counties that which the crofting Members desire should be accepted. Had they done so the crofting counties would not have been deprived, as they are now going to be deprived by the action of His Majesty's Government, either of legislation which they desire or of funds which have been promised them by this Bill, and which they will no longer be able to obtain. What is the excuse given by the right hon. Gentleman for thus depriving the crofter representatives of that which they desire, and for depriving the rest of Scotland of that which they think good enough for England? His reason—and his only reason—is that merely to delimit the crofter area is a task of such enormous difficulty—

I particularly said I gave that as an example of the difficulties, but that it was not, of course, the whole reason of the action we had taken.

I presume it was the most striking example of the right hon. Gentleman, otherwise he would not have given it. And what was this most striking example of the difficulties that lay in the way of this House carrying out the policy which I endeavoured to outline? The difficulty was this, that it would take us weeks, and even months—that was the exact phrase of the right hon. Gentleman—to decide this question of the delimitation of the crofter area. Under the guidance of the right Gentleman we took twelve hours, and twelve hours only, to discuss the whole question of a new rating Bill for Scotland; we took three days to discuss in a full House all the provisions—not merely the limitation provisions—contained in the Land Bill for Scotland; we took three days to discuss forty-five clauses of the English Bill, and why the right hon. Gentleman should thus suddenly change his whole views as to the proprieties of Parliamentary procedure, the liberties of Parliamentary debate, and the length of time which it is proper to take to deal with difficult questions on August 22nd passes my comprehension. It is, of course, quite obvious from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, not that he has the slightest desire either to carry out the wishes of the crofting Members, or to give to the other parts of Scotland the benefit of the Small Holdings Bill; his whole policy is based upon a desire to pick a quarrel with the other House. On that point I can only say that I cannot imagine that he could have chosen a worse subject on which to do so.

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I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, who authorised the Earl of Crewe to state in the House of Lords last night that those who were entitled to speak for the northern counties concurred in the withdrawal of the crofters' portion of the Scottish Land Bill?

Lord Crewe did not make that statement by any authority from me, but the statement was quite correct. I received assurances from all sides—from within this House and from without it—that while the crofter county representatives were anxious to obtain these benefits for the crofters, which they have never received from the other side of the House except for some different purpose—I say, while they were so anxious, they submitted themselves loyally to what was considered the best policy and tactics—[Loud OPPOSITION cheers, which were prolonged for some time by Mr. Austen Chamberlain and other Members, until at last the right hon. Gentleman resumed his seat.] I had to sit down while the right hon. Gentleman—

rose and stood at the Table. As neither right hon. Gentlemen would give way, there were loud cries of "Order, order!"

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I would venture to point out that the whole of this discussion being very irregular, the best way of bringing it to an end would be to use as little contentious matter as possible.

If I have erred on the point of contentions matter I apologize. But what I was saying was that Members in the House and their countrymen in their counties outside of the House have given unmistakable proof that they are not desirous of receiving any advantage for themselves at the cost of the rest of their countrymen.

New Member Sworn

Ellis Jones Griffith, esquire, for the county of Anglesea.

Standing Orders

Ordered, That the Standing Orders, as amended, be printed. [No. 329.]

Expiring Laws Continuance Bill

Read a second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow.—( Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

Public Works Loans Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

said the total amount of outstanding loans at the present time was £69,347,000. Out of that sum £592,000 had been written off as irrecoverable. There had been many restrictions in recent years owing to the fact that the Treasury objected to making loans to large local bodies on the ground that those bodies should be able, on the strength of their own credit, to raise such money as they required for their own purposes. They had thus succeeded in recent years in avoiding any large issue, and there had been no issue of local loans since 1904. They did not anticipate that in the near future there was likely to be any issue of this stock. The Bill in Clause 2 provided for the wiping out of some irrecoverable loans. Clause 6 contained the fulfilment of the undertaking given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts, which would provide for an extension of the period of the repayment of loans which had been made under those Acts. This would, in the long run, bring a relief to the local authorities of Ireland, which would amount approximately to something like £40,000 per annum. That would be of considerable advantage to the local authorities in Ireland, and that, combined with the relief granted under the Act of last year, would bring the assistance given to those local authorities up to £70,000 per annum. Clause 9 provided for the wiping out of loans made in the case of the Cullen Harbour Commissioners. The Harbour Commissioners were entirely out of funds, the trade on which they depended a few years ago having entirely left the port. Unless the port was to be left derelict it was necessary that something should be done. Clause 3 dealt with Volunteer drill-halls, which were now taken over by the Secretary for War. Clauses 4 and 5 were entirely new in this Bill. Clause 4 dealt with a loan of £800,000 to the Colony of Jamaica. This loan was in addition to the Grant of £150,000 already provided for. It was to provide for the devastation brought about by the earthquake at Jamaica. It was quite possible that the individual claims which would be made on this fund would reach £800,000, but only £75,000 would be used for the purposes of the Government itself, and the total of £800,000 was the limit beyond which the loan would not go. Clause 5 dealt with the Northern Nigerian scheme, which was one of considerable magnitude. From the Treasury point of view, Northern Nigeria, in which the proposed railway was to be constructed, had been a source, not of profit, but of great expense to the United Kingdom. They had had to pay out grants-in-aid of varied amounts up to £350,000 per annum. At the present time the grant-in-aid to Northern Nigeria amounted to something like £300,000. If the Home Government wished to reduce that amount they would have to enter upon such schemes as would reduce the cost of the administration and the cost of the West African Frontier Force, and also do something towards increasing the commercial prosperity of that great territory. It was quite clear that unless the means of communication in that Colony were improved none of those things could be attained. We had always held that country with a small handful of men, and the expense of moving them about had been considerable. Therefore it was felt absolutely necessary that as soon as possible a railway should be constructed along the main lines of communication, not only for commerce, but for strategic purposes. This scheme had been very carefully thought out, so far as the Treasury was concerned, and he could assure the House that they had given their consent to it with the very greatest caution. His right hon. friend would be able to assure the House on the various points which had not been made clear in the course of the discussion. They had succeeded in the course of a year and a half or two years in arriving at the present stage of the scheme. Sir Percy Girouard, who was out in Northern Nigeria, would devote his skill to the construction of this railway, and they anticipated that, in the course of two years, a line of communication would be opened from Baro on the Niger to Zungeru, about 100 miles, and ultimately to Kano. This would absorb something like £350,000. From their point of view, it was absolutely necessary they should improve the communication, and there- fore the Treasury gave their consent to the scheme after it had been thoroughly criticised, and properly thought out, and the whole of the financial arrangements had been made with their consent. Funds had to be provided in one of three ways£Either by a direct grant from the Imperial Exchequer, or by a loan secured on the Colony itself, or by a loan on the security of some other self-contained Colony, which could be held responsible. They decided that a direct grant was absolutely out of the question, as they were not prepared to repeat the Uganda experiment of some few years ago. The second resort, that of a security on the Colony, was also out of the question, because the Colony was not self-supporting, and could only make ends meet by a grant-in-aid which amounted to nearly £300,000. The last resort was to deal with the whole of that area of Northern and Southern Nigeria from a new point of view. They considered how far these Colonies could be kept apart, and the ultimate decision arrived at was that for ordinary government purposes the ultimate aim must be the amalgamation of these two Colonies. If that was so, it was quite clear that the new Colony, of Nigeria would be in possession of a railway which had been constructed at the expense of the Imperial Government. A prosperous Colony like Southern Nigeria was not entitled to a great gift of this kind, and they, therefore, thought it was a feasible arrangement insomuch as South Nigeria now provided something like £70,000 as a grant-in-aid towards the expenditure of Northern Nigeria, that they might deal with that £70,000 as part of the transactions into which they had entered with Southern Nigeria; and the ultimate arrangement they made was this: They agreed to a loan being made out of the Local Loans Fund provided for in this clause. Having done that, they were prepared to relieve Southern Nigeria from the interest on this grant, by means of a deduction from the grant-in-aid which Southern Nigeria now made to Northern Nigeria, so that Southern Nigeria would not be out of pocket in the first instance. They were then prepared to consider the possibility, and, in fact it was their aim, that ultimately this debt should be a Colonial debt. When the Colony was given self-government, it was almost impossible to place on to its shoulders a debt which had been incurred in the creation of that Colony without giving at the same time a guarantee on the Imperial Exchequer. They thought that by this transaction, which they hoped to consummate in this Bill, they would provide funds for the railway which would be ample, and would place the liability on the shoulders of those who ought to bear it, and that they would in the long run provide that these two Colonies should bear the whole burden of the debt that had been created in their interest and for their benefit. As this was a new proceeding, he thought it necessary to point out that although it was new in the Public Works Loans Bill, it was not new in their financial arrangements. The House was aware that the Colonial Loans Act, 1897, provided for a loan being made for Lagos, which was now a part of Southern Nigeria, and also the Niger Protectorate, on exactly the same terms as were provided for in this Bill. There was also a loan to Cyprus, which was absolutely analogous to the loan which it was sought to make under this Bill. Therefore the transaction with which the Government were proceeding was not without precedent, and he thought that the precedent afforded on that occasion had not been a source of regret to any of those who were concerned. He hoped the House would consent to the Bill, and especially to those two provisions, the Jamaica loan and the Nigerian loan. In conclusion, he could assure the House that they hoped by this means to avoid any calls for money for this purpose. Under the clause inserted in the Bill of last year they were able to use funds which were at the disposal of the National Debt Commissioners—self-contained funds, if he might so speak of them, which would make it unnecessary for them to go to the money market for money required either in Jamaica or in Southern Nigeria. He had no doubt this would be a source of satisfaction, not only to the money market, but to Members of that House who were interested in financial affairs. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Runciman.)

said that the hon. Gentleman had stated that Clauses 4 and 5 were new to the Bill; he desired to submit to Mr. Speaker that they were beyond the scope of the Bill. The Bill was to—

Grant money for the purpose of certain local loans out of the Local Loans Fund, and for other purposes relating to local loans.
The Act of 1887, Section 6, Subsection 1, referred to advances by Parliament of money for the purpose of loans to the Public Works Loans Commissioners, the Fisheries Board of Scotland, or the Commissioners of Works in Ireland, or to the Irish Land Commission, or for the purpose of similar loans by the Treasury, and he submitted that it was perfectly clear that under that Act the National Debt Commissioners were authorised to, advance money for similar loans to the Public Works Loans Commissioners, the Scottish Fishery Board, the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, and the Irish Land Commission. Under the Act of 1887 the Public Works Loans Commissioners were instituted for the purpose of granting money to municipal authorities, but there was in the Act a statement that the provisions of the Colonial Act of 1899 were incorporated, and on referring to that Act he found that it authorised certain public loans to certain Colonies or places. It was not described, like this Bill, as being for the purpose of granting money from local loans out of the Local Loans Fund and for other purposes relating to local loans. It was something different. Subsection 2 said the advances authorised by that Act—
Shall be local loans within the meaning of the National Debt and Local Loans Act, 1887, and shall apply accordingly.
The point he ventured to submit was this. The Colonial Loans Act was intituled—
An Act for the advance of public loans to certain Colonies or places.
A Bill ought to have been brought in. to grant loans to Nigeria and Jamaica. That had not been done, and as a matter of fact Clauses 4 and 5 of the present Bill were out of order, because they were beyond its scope. He submitted this to Mr Speaker as a point of order.

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The Colonial Loans Act of 1899 contains Subsection 2, Section 1. It says—

Advances authorised by this Act
—that is, the Colonial Loans Act of 1899—
shall be local loans within the meaning of the Local Loans Act, 1887.
It would have been open, I think, to the draftsman of this Bill to have inserted that section in the Bill which we are now discussing, and if it were in this Bill I do not suppose the hon. Gentleman would raise his objection, because it would then have said, "Advances authorised by this Act shall be local loans within the meaning of the National Debt and Local Loans Act, 1899," and that Act would apply accordingly. That would have been the more direct method for the draftsman to adopt, but instead of that he has put into two clauses of this Bill a provision making the Colonial Loans Act applicable, subsection 2 of Section 1 being inserted in the Schedule of this Bill. I dare say there may be good reason for it, but it is a more roundabout way than that of adopting the subsection straight out of the Colonial Loans Act of 1899. The draftsman has put into the schedule the subsections he wants, and then he makes the provisions of the Colonial Loans Act as set out in the schedule applicable. I think the result is the same though the method is a little more roundabout. In other words, he says that these particular loans are to be considered as local loans, and if they be considered local loans then it is right and proper that they should come into the Bill, and they are within the scope of the Bill. I do not know whether I have made myself clear to the hon. Gentleman.

said the only point that, was doubtful was whether the first three lines of the Bill ought not to have been amended so as to include the loans to Colonial places. That would have followed the precedent of the Act of 1899. But they had not done that; they had not said it was a Bill authorising public loans to certain Colonies or places, and it seemed to him that the first three lines of the Bill should be amended, because they set forth that the Bill was to—

Grant money for the purpose of certain local loans out of the Local Loans Fund, etc.
They had the precedent of the Colonial Loans Act of 1899, and he certainly thought the point which he raised as to Amendments being required for the first three lines of the present Bill was one which required some explanation.

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I did not say so. That subsection appears in the schedule. Clauses 4 and 5 refer to the schedule, and they make Subsection 2 of Section 1 of the Colonial Loans Act applicable to this Bill.

said that after the ruling which had just been given it appeared to him that loans to Jamaica could be considered local in the sense of the Bill they were now discussing. Any criticism from the Opposition side of the House would not be directed to Clauses 4 and 5, but rather to suggesting that the money should be voted in the form of a loan to Jamaica and Nigeria. They were not proceeding in the best and most suitable way. The Colonial Act of 1899 was an Act passed to sanction advances set forth in the schedule amounting to £3,351,000, and that was a clearly self-contained Bill authorising the Treasury to advance the money.

thought it would have been better if the Government had followed the precedent of the Act of 1899, and made the grant to these two Colonies in the form in which it was made under that Act. He understood that the object of advancing this sum of money out of the Local Loans Fund was to avoid the necessity of going into the money market. By the precedent set under the Act of 1899, this money would come out of the funds of the Public Works Loans Commissioners, and he thought it would be much better to follow that example in the present Bill and bring in a separate Bill applying to these two Colonies and use the Public Works Loans Act for the purpose it was intended by this House and not complicate matters by the introduction of extraneous questions. There would be no objection raised to the passing of this Bill in its present form or in the more correct form he had suggested, but it could easily be amended by the omission of those two clauses and a Bill might be introduced which would carry out the intention of both sides of the House in a way more convenient and more in accordance with precedent.

said his right hon. friend was right in assuming that this Bill would not receive any strenuous opposition from that side of the House. He had, however, one or two suggestions to make. Perhaps the Secretary to the Treasury would accept his congratulations upon the clear statement he had made to the House. As to Nigeria, he was glad to hear that they were likely to get some return for the £300,000 they had been annually spending in that country. The Under-Secretary for the Colonies had also stated that the making of this railway would have the effect of opening up and developing wide productive areas for cotton growing. That raised a very important question. He thought the financial aspect of the Bill was perfectly sound. The Under-Secretary for the Colonies must be very happy in looking back upon Nigeria, because there was no portion of the Empire where such splendid work had been done by what he might call a mere omnibusful of British officials, in a country which was six years ago in a state of anarchy. In Northern Nigeria they had entered upon a country containing 262,000 square miles and in Southern Nigeria 47,000 square miles, inhabited by numberless warring tribes. He wished to pay the highest tribute to the splendid work which Sir Frederick Lugard and hisconfrères had done. Personally he doubted whether this railway would ever have been established for strategical purposes alone. Sir Frederick Lugard had been in Nigeria a number of years and he knew the conditions of the country. His Reports showed a very wide grasp of economic as well as commercial questions, and he recommended tramway which he said could be built at infinitely less expense than a railway such as that which was now projected. If it was the case that a tramway could have been erected, which when the railway was built might have been used to form branch lines to feed the main line, that struck him as an exceedingly reasonable proposition which had in it all the elements of common sense and reason and proceeded upon the lines of gradual development. The products of the country were very few. What was the policy of projecting this railway apart from strategical considerations? It was practically a policy of subsidy and bounty. The railway represented a very high protectionist policy.

said the railway undoubtedly represented a policy of subsidy by which, before they got the products, they had to construct a line to tempt those products. The Government was prepared to accept the principle of a subsidy in regard to the all-red route. Was it in the hope of getting traffic for the railway, or in the hope, as in the case of the Canadian Pacific Railway, that there would grow up industries where there were none at present? The Under-Secretary for the Colonies represented a portion of a cotton constituency, but he would hesitate to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman had supported this railway the more strenuously because it would benefit Manchester if there was a great production of cotton in Nigeria. He submitted, however, that when the right hon. Gentleman went to Manchester again to ask a renewal of the suffrages of his constituents a card which he could play effectively was that he had pleaded for the establishment of facilities for cotton growing in Nigeria in order to give Manchester what she needed. There was another consideration to which he wished to direct attention. He presumed that it was still part of the policy to carry cotton from Northern Nigeria down to the coast free, that the Cotton Growing Association was to provide for the sale of the cotton in England, and that the Royal Company of Nigeria was to provide the seed. That was a very fine combination but there again they had an excellent system which all tariff reformers would support. He believed it was the case that the Cotton Growing Association insisted that the cotton should not be sold to any country but England. Manchester would benefit chiefly by that arrangement. He wished to know whether this railway which was for the purpose of developing cotton growing in Nigeria was only to carry cotton to be sold in England. If that was the case, it was a policy which corresponded to the most extreme form of protection practised by Germany, which would not allow Australian food stuffs to be carried by the North German Lloyd ships. That was what was being done by this so-called free trade Government of which the right hon. Gentleman was one of the most efficient and brilliant exponents. Did hon. Gentlemen opposite realise what this railway meant? In 1905 Nigeria produced £1,000 worth of cotton. In order to be independent of the other cotton-growing countries of the world, Manchester would require millions of bales from British Possessions, and therefore the statement of the right hon. Gentleman regarding the necessity of this railway for the development of cotton growing in Nigeria was one which was more brilliant on paper than in actual fact. Did anyone really think that this railway, on which we were going to spend between £1,500,000 and £2,000,000, was going to give Manchester in any limited period the cotton she required? He did not say that the right hon. Gentleman had supported this railway only for the purpose of developing cotton growing. He believed the right hon. Gentleman and the Government had supported it with the object of developing a new country. That was the policy which the Conservative Party would have pursued if they had been in power. He did not wish to support the Bill only for the reason which had been set forth by the Under-Secretary.

What reason does the hon. Gentleman refer to?

said the right hon. Gentleman would do him the credit of admitting that he began by stating the reasons which he gave. He was certain that the right hon. Gentleman supported the railway for strategical reasons and with a view to the general commercial development of the country, but he supported it specifically because it would develop a cotton growing area which would give this country cotton independently of the United States. [An HON. MEMBER: Why not? Of course, why not? He wanted the House to understand that he did not accept the suggestion conveyed by the right hon. Gentleman that this railway was going to make, within a limited time, any great difference in the cotton supply of this country. The considerations put forward by the right hon. Gentleman concerning cotton growing were not considerations which should weigh greatly with the House. He believed there was a very good prospect in regard to minerals in Nigeria. There was also rubber produced in the country, but he understood that what had already been sent out was not of a very satisfactory kind. The right hon. Gentleman would probably argue that the railway was not for the development of cotton alone, but also for the development of the other natural products which Sir Frederick Lugard and others had reported that the country possessed. He supported he Bill warmly because it was a good tariff reform measure. The right hon. Gentleman had brought forward a good protectionist policy. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to explain why the more expensive undertaking in the shape of a railway had been proposed in antagonism, or, at any rate, in contradistinction to the tramways suggested by Sir Frederick Lugard in his admirable Report.

said the hon. Member for Gravesend had told,the House the reasons which induced him warmly to support this measure. But he was bound to say that he had never heard an argument which was more capable of producing the opposite of what was intended than that used in support of the view which the hon. Gentleman set himself to enforce. He hoped that in dealing with this matter of the administration and scientific development of a great territory they would not think it necessary to plunge into the controversy between free trade and protection. There was the widest possible difference between the policy of improving the communications by sea and land across the surface of the British Empire and any policy of erecting tariff walls and obstructing the free interchange of commerce. He asked the House first to realise what was the position in Northern Nigeria. When we took it over in 1900 from the Niger Company that company practically confined its operations to the banks of the Niger and Benué rivers; but we had been drawn on beyond those limits by irresistible forces which would readily occur to hon. Gentlemen, until now we had become responsible for the day-to-day administration of a territory something like 400 miles from east to west and of equal depth, and which comprised within its area nearly nine millions of persons. That administration was maintained by a comparatively small body of officials, military and civil, and the whole order and authority of the country was maintained, not through the instrumentality of any white troops, but through the agency of native troops commanded by white officers and non-commissioned officers. When one reflected that those troops were drawn from the people of the country in which they lived, and were subject to the same influences, nobody could doubt that the position which we occupied in Northern Nigeria, although it had enabled us in ever-increasing measure to set up a civilised Government and to put down altogether many of the most hideous disorders and crimes which had stained that country in previous years, was nevertheless a precarious position, so long as we held the country without any swift or speedy means of communication. It took weeks to send small bodies of troops from one garrison to another, and every ounce of material and stores, transport of all kinds, had to be carried 300 or 400 miles on the heads of men and women. He could not see any circumstance more likely to prevent the commercial development, and to continue the conditions of instability of Northern Nigeria than to hamper the Government in that civilised and scientific administration which was so indispensable, by the want of a line of railway buckling the country from end to end. Therefore the first solid and sufficient reason for such a road being built was its administrative and strategic necessity. There was another aspect to which his hon. friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury had referred. A grant-in-aid of £300,000 had been made to the finances of Northern Nigeria. That, no doubt, was a very heavy contribution, but he did not see any prospect of that burden being substantially reduced unless the country was developed and thrown open to commerce, unless there was evidence of permanent occupation which would attract capital and enterprise. The strategic, financial, commercial and administrative reasons were sufficient to justify the scheme of the railway. But there were also economies in sight. It was hoped that when the line was complete it would be possible to reduce the expenditure now necessitated on the Northern Nigeria military force by £20,000. That alone would be a very considerable portion of the interest charges which the railway would involve. In the second place, there would be a great economy in the transport compared with the present time, and the system of head-carrying, which was organised by the Government on an elaborate scale, would be swept away and those persons engaged in it—who comprised a large portion of the population—would be set free for productive labour. Then the cost of the large staff of European officials who were paid large salaries—not too large when the dangers and the climate were considered—and who had a long period of leave, could be reduced. When these officials went on leave, on full pay, they were often forced to journey for six or seven weeks through the country before they could get from their stations to the coast and from the coast to their stations. A very substantial saving would be made from that source alone if the railway were built. Again, it was very important that any railway constructed in Northern Nigeria should be a cheap railway. He quite agreed with the hon. Gentleman opposite that it was of importance not to push on too fast, saddling the country with an expenditure which it could not suddenly bear. Sir F. Lugard had always been in favour of a light tramway, which he said could be constructed for £1,500 a mile, and he produced a proof of that in the case of the Bari Juko and Zungeru tramway. It was pointed out, however, that in that case only small sections of the line had been made, and that we could not take it for granted that analogous economies would result from departmental construction in the case of a large undertaking. Very careful investigation had been made, and the Government were gradually driven by friendly experts to the conclusion that a two-and-a-half foot gauge railway could not be built for less than £2,500 a mile. But it seemed a great pity that they could not go a step further and construct, at a cost of £3,000 a mile, a three-and-a-half foot gauge railway which would make the line absolutely uniform with the railway in Southern Nigeria, and so prevent delays and cost caused by the break of gauge and the transfer of traffic. It might be asked how a three-and-a-half standard gauge railway could be built at so small a cost as £3,000 a mile. It was because they were constructing a pioneer railway. That did not mean that it would not be a railway fully capable of discharging all the duties which could be demanded of it. Such a railway as they proposed to construct would only require one train to be run in a day and it need not go more than fourteen or fifteen miles an hour. If that were done it would discharge all the practical and essential needs of the country. Economy would be effected in the unimportant parts of the equipment of the railway. The rails, the permanent way and the sleepers would all be of a satisfactory character, but where they could they would economise in stations, quarters, the amount of rolling stock, telegraph erection, and wharves on the river Niger, and these could be quite easily improved. as the traffic grew. All those matters had been carefully investigated during the past eighteen months and every point had been canvassed. Sir Percy Girouard, the Administrator, thoroughly concurred in the estimates which had been drawn up by competent consulting engineers, and a thorough survey of the route had been made. Sir Percy Girouard was positive that a three-and-a-half foot gauge railway could be constructed at £3,000 a mile, or half the cost at which such lines had formerly been constructed. Sir Percy Girouard did not speak without authority, for he had constructed that marvellous railway from Wady Halfa to the Atbara in the Soudan at the extraordinary low charge of £3,000 a mile, excluding military labour, though it was capable of carrying heavy traffic. It might be stated that a tramway would have been inconvenient for many purposes—not the least, it would not have carried bales of cotton, which would be a leading feature in the produce of Northern Nigeria. It was indispensable that any system of railway development in Northern Nigeria must be based upon or connected with the navigable reaches of the Niger and the Benue. These rivers provided 1,500 miles of practical waterways. Even at the worst seasons three feet of water were available, and Sir Percy Girouard reported that the employment of one or two dredges would procure six feet of water over almost the whole 1,500 miles. During two months of high water ocean-going steamers could penetrate more than 800 miles from the sea. To neglect these natural communications or to provide a railway system not in connection with them would be a cardinal error. Therefore, they had selected Baro, a native village about seventy miles up stream from Lokoja, as the base from which at all seasons of the year a clear waterway could be had. From Baro the line would run to Bida, would pass a little to the East of Zungeru, thence to Zaria and on to Kano. Each of these sections would, it was estimated, take a year to construct. But owing to the fact that the railway material must be landed during the two months of high water (September and October), when ocean-going steamers could discharge at Baro, no track-laying could be begun till the end of next year. It was contemplated that Zungeru would be reached by the end of 1909, Zaria in 1910, and Kano in 1911. He would draw the attention of the House to the great advantages of the finance proposals advanced by his hon. friend the Member for Dewsbury. In the present state of the money market it was undesirable to force the Protectorate, which was poor, to incur unnecessary charges in raising the necessary money for the construction of the railway. Furthermore, they did not desire to increase the permanent liabilities of the United Kingdom for a railway which must ultimately become the possession of the Protectorate, and which would be a trunk line for Nigeria. By arrangement the money would be raised as substantially a debt due by Southern Nigeria, but the loan would be financed through the Public Works Loans Commissioners; and any extra charge which fell in consequence of this arrangement upon the finances of Southern Nigeria would be deducted from the contribution made by Southern Nigeria to the revenue of Northern Nigeria. The imperial grant-in-aid to Northern Nigeria would be proportionately increased by that amount for the time being, but he would point out that the revenues of Northern Nigeria were increasing at an average rate of £20,000 a year; and as the railway would not be completed for four years, and as the whole of the interest charge would not mature for four years, the strong probability was that the grant-in aid, in spite of being charged with this extra liability, would not be increased and the growth of revenue, as the rail way extended, would balance the accruing interest charges. He thought he had submitted to the House sufficient reasons financial, strategic and administrative, to justify the construction of the line, bu he had such a strong case that he ha( another ground on which to urge it. H was in the position of a military office who manœuvred, but who had not ye brought up his guns. There was another justification for this railway, stronger even than the financial and strategic reasons which he had given. The House could not ignore the enormous importance of cultivating cotton in Northern Nigeria. There was hardly any industry more solidly established in this country than the Lancashire cotton industry, in which something like 7,000,000 persons were concerned. That industry occupied a stronger position now than it did a few 'ears ago; because for a long time it had been exposed to competition hoped by inferior rates of wages and longer hours of labour in European countries. But those countries were becoming the scene of active labour movements, leading to large increases of wages and diminution of hours; with the consequence that the international position of our cotton industry would seem to be better for the future than in;he past. But the industry had one weak spot—an Achilles' heel. It was dependent on one particular source of supply; and when there was a shortage n the American market, the evil was aggravated by the operations of speculators. That introduced an element of fluctuation, uncertainty, and gambling, and had caused before now sharp pinches throughout Lancashire. It was the object of the British Cotton-growing Association to vary and multiply the sources of cotton supply, so that, with many fields available, the climatic risks might be averaged, and the deficiency in one direction made good by abundance in another. The association owed its charter to the late Government, who deserved great credit for the fact. It had ransacked the British Empire for cotton fields; and it was in Lagos that the most favourable results had been obtained. In 1903 there were 500 bales of cotton grown in Lagos. This quantity increased to 2,000 bales in 1904, to 3,200 in in 1905, to 6,000 in 1906, and to 12,000 in 1907. That was a geometric progression, and, although the quantity was still minute compared with the needs of Lancashire, the increase was greater than that which occurred in the Southern States of America when the cotton industry was first established there. But the Cotton Association had always asserted that Northern, and not Southern, Nigeria was the true sphere of activity. Southern Nigeria was, pervaded by the tsetse fly, which made the employment of draft animals impossible. But in Northern Nigeria that disadvantage disappeared, and cotton could be grown under exactly the same conditions as in America. This was not to embark on, a new industry, either; for cotton of an extremely high quality had been marketed there for over 1,000 years. It was an important additional reason for the construction of this railway that it would throw open Northern Nigeria to the operations of the British Cotton-growing Association, which conferred great benefits on the natives. It went into new territory and offered a high and uniform rate for all cotton grown by the natives, who at present not only grew the cotton, but worked it up. It was proposed that the natives should be encouraged to grow the cotton, and that we should send them back the finished product in return. There was even a reason for haste, because, in spite of the present difficulties of communication, Lancashire goods were filtering into Northern Nigeria, and the natives were ceasing to grow cotton; and there was a danger, therefore, of defeating our purpose. But the claims of one particular industry or part of the country would not alone justify the expenditure of public money. But when that expenditure was made good on commercial, financial, and strategic grounds, those claims constituted an additional reason for action. The working classes had paid a great deal in one way or another for the support of the British Empire at different times; and cotton was the most palpable thread that united the industrial population of our large towns with our tropical possessions across the seas. He hoped, therefore, that the House would not accuse the Government of want of thrift in regard to public money in making the proposals. Care had been taken to secure for the State any increment in the value of the land which might arise from the construction of the railway.

said that the right hon. Gentleman supported this Bill as representing an economic policy, but he was not sure that he could support it on that ground. Within the last six weeks the Government had asked the House to provide £17,500,000 by way of loans.

said the hon. Baronet was under a complete misapprehension. The money was not going to be raised all at once. It was spread over a number of years and it was all productive expenditure. The instalments were only to be raised in small quantities.

presumed that the loans were to be met by the savings in other departments.

said there was some way at any rate by which the right hon. Gentleman was going to get his first instalment without going into the open market. This sort of thing could not go on for ever, The money the right hon. Gentleman was going to take for this purpose would have gone to some other object if it had not been taken for this. Money could not be used twice over, and if it was not used for Nigeria, or telephones, or the Transvaal loan, it would be used for some other purpose. This Bill provided by the first clause for a sum of £3,000,000 to be raised for local loans. He had always advanced the opinion, whichever side was in power, that these local bodies should not be allowed to borrow from the National Debt Commissioners at so cheap a rate, and on one occasion he succeeded in persuading the then Chancellor of the Exchequer to raise the rate. He objected to these large local bodies borrowing from the National Debt Commissioners by way of local loans. The original intention was that small municipal bodies who were unable to borrow on the market except on the most onerous terms should be able to procure money on easy terms. When money was cheap these large local bodies who were never intended to come in under this Bill borrowed on the market on easy terms, and when it was dear came to the Government and obtained it from them. During the whole time of the war when the Government had to borrow money for the purposes of the war, large local loans were being issued to these bodies at 3 per cent., the result of which was that it interfered with the Government's borrowing money for national purposes.

said the right hon. Gentleman was very careful to say he was not borrowing money, but he was using money from somewhere, and they did not know from what source the money came.

said it was money which came in to the National Debt Commissioners' Department from loans, and the National Debt Commissioners, instead of using it for the cancellation of local loan stock, lent it out again for this purpose.

said he was glad to have that explanation at all events. They now knew where it came from. It was money that ought to have been used for the cancellation of local loan stock. If it had been so applied it would have raised the value of that stock with the result that other Government securities would have risen also. He hoped the right hon. Gentle: man would see that the public credit was not taken advantage of by these municipal authorities which he did not think should be allowed to borrow on such easy terms. He would like to have an explanation from the Financial Secretary to the War Office of the appropriation by the War Office of half a million of money in respect of the repayment of certain mortgages which were held by the Treasury for money advanced to the Volunteers. That half a million, he contended, ought to have gone to the Sinking Fund. The two remaining clauses related to Jamaica and Nigeria. He was credibly informed that the clause relating to Nigeria was the commencement of a policy of tariff reform, and therefore he would say nothing further about that. With regard to Jamaica, everybody would like to see her assisted in her great tribulation. He was not sufficiently versed in the question of Nigeria to say whether the expenditure of this £3,000,000 would result in a profit, but in any case he did not think the argument as to savings derived from the officials was a good one.

said he was then endeavouring to show that these savings as the result of economies would go a long way towards defraying the interest, and that no one should neglect any source of income for defraying the interest. The administrative economies were put at £10,000 a year.

said one-seventieth of what was required. He would give one word of warning. As he understood the £3,000,000 was given as a grant in aid to Northern Nigeria because the right hon. Gentleman thought the railway would develop the country and go a long way towards avoiding the expenditure now made in respect of that country. There was a good old adage, "It is no use throwing good money after bad." Clauses 4 and 5 should have been brought in as separate Bills. That was the practice of former years and there would be no opposition if such a course was taken now either from himself or those among whom he sat. He thought it would be more in the interests of good legislation if such a course was adopted.

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said that this railway opening up the country would raise some difficulty in respect to putting down the drink traffic in Nigeria. The difficulty of maintaining the prohibition area in Northern Nigeria was bound to increase. He did not doubt that the Government firmly intended to safeguard the existing area, but with new means of communication smuggling was bound to increase and the difficulty of preserving the temperance zone was bound to increase also. Nobody wished to see this traffic increased, and only the other day he asked the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary whether something could not be done to prevent it by increasing the railway rates and the customs duty.

said that raising rates where there was river communication would only have the effect of diverting the traffic to the river.

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said the right hon. Gentleman had convinced him upon that point, and he would therefore ask whether it was not the fact that the only way to prevent this increase of this evil was to extend the prohibition zone to Southern Nigeria. He found that there were many villages in Southern Nigeria where the only signs of our civilising influence were piles of empty gin bottles on the outskirts of the villages. He thought that prohibition of sale to natives was a practical policy in the opinion of those who knew the country well, and the deficit in the revenue could be made good by direct taxation of the natives. They already had direct taxation in Northern Nigeria and he thought it was possible to get it in Southern Nigeria. The Government, he believed, did intend to extend the prohibition area twenty miles south, but that would only remove the border difficulty to another locality and he trusted that the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies would take such complete prohibition of the sale to natives into his serious consideration.

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said this was a measure of tariff reform, and therefore he was able to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his inexplicable and sudden conversion from those opinions which he formerly pronounced on free trade to the principles of the Tariff Reform League. Sudden conversions were not frequent, but the right hon. Gentleman was the exception proving the rule, because his conversions had been very frequent in the course of the last few years, for he was a convert on the question of Chinese labour and of the House of Lords, and so on. This was another instance of his becoming a convert, and on this conversion he was able to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman. The Under-Secretary for the Colonies held different views from those entertained on that side of the House with regard to preference, for he said there was a very considerable difference between raising tariff barriers and granting subsidies which were for the benefit of a particular part of the Empire. The right hon. Gentleman had gone on to point out that the supply in this country of raw cotton was dependent on one source, and that, therefore, this measure was very beneficial in that it would vary and increase the sources of supply to manufacturers in this country. He maintained that there was no difference between that policy and the policy of preference which tariff Reformers advocated, because they also desired to increase the sources of supply of valuable raw materials within the Empire.

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said that the view of preference which they held was to increase the source of supply of raw material in the Colonies and in different parts of the Empire with a view to making the Empire as far as possible self-sufficing. In speaking the other day, the right hon. Gentleman had said that the difference between the preference on his side of the House and the preference advocated on the Opposition side was, that the former was based on sacrifice, whereas the other kind of preference was a matter of sordid dividends. He would rather like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in this instance the preference was one of sacrifice or of squalid dividends. He found that in the report of Sir F. Lugard it was stated that the Government at the, present time was conveying cotton to the coast of Nigeria free of charge. He wished to ask on that point whether, when this railway was built, it was proposed to carry the cotton as at present, free of charge. Unless that was done, or at any rate unless some facilities were given to the cotton growers, the railway would not have the effect which the right hon. Gentleman anticipated, namely, very largely to increase the supply of cotton from Northern Nigeria. He found that Sir F. Lugard said in another portion of his Report that, in his judgment, a railway constructed at the cost at which other West African railways had been constructed would be compelled to charge rates which might strangle the new industry at its birth. If the new industry was not to be strangled at its birth, it was quite obvious that these cotton growers should be given very considerable advantages in the shape of rebates, or else be allowed as at present, to have their cotton conveyed by railway absolutely free of charge. There was one other question he would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, and it was as to the probability of this railway paying its own way. It seemed to him that a very large sum of money was to be expended, and so far as he I recollected, the right hon. Gentleman had nowhere indicated in his remarks whether there was any probability of its paying its own way, or what length of time was likely to elapse before that desirable state of things would be reached.

said that as one of the representatives of Lancashire, which had a great interest in this subject, he desired to support the Bill, because he thought the railway in Nigeria would be of great benefit to the Lancashire cotton trade, not only in regard to the employers, but in regard to the operatives also. Last year there was a great scarcity of cotton for supplying the mills in Lancashire. The cotton crop in America on which they very largely depended was very short, and the result was that the Lancashire mills could not be worked to their full capacity. For many months the operatives were working only four days a week, so there was a great loss. They set about to see if they could not by mutual agreement with their employers take some steps to prevent a recurrence of a similar state of things, and they formed what was known as the British Cotton Growers' Association. The operatives had subscribed many thousands of pounds to finance that association, and the result was that very large capital had been raised in Lancashire to promote cotton growing in the British Empire. At Lagos, especially, the best place had been found, and the extension of cotton growing there had been very rapid indeed, much more rapid than when cotton growing was started in the Southern States of America. There was no doubt that the development of the railway in Northern Nigeria would help the Lagos cotton trade to a great extent. There had been a great expansion in the trade in Lancashire. During the past two years mills had been built in large numbers. Over 100 mills had been built for the spinning of yarn out of cotton in addition to a large number for weaving. The rate of extension on the Continent convinced them that in a very short time the supply of cotton now open to them would be entirely inadequate, and it was absolutely neces sary they should have fresh sources of supply. Cotton had been grown for 'a long time in Northern Nigeria, and the best experts in America had been there and said it was the most suitable place in the world for the growth of cotton, and that in a few years a very large quantity could be got from there. The cotton that was grown in Northern Nigeria was exactly the class of cotton required for the Lancashire trade. There was a larger policy also connected with this question. He believed that development of this description would not only benefit the Lancashire cotton trade, which employed 10,000,000 people, but find them a market for their goods in return. He therefore thanked the Government for bringing in this Bill, and for building a railway in Nigeria.

said Clause 3 of the Bill dealt with a remarkable transaction between the War Office and the Public Works Loans Commissioners. He did not understand, and it had not been explained, what was the need for this clause in the Bill. He found on looking back, that the authority for spending this money, amounting to nearly £500,000, was only obtained on the report of the Resolution of the House on the 12th March last. Four days later, this no doubt very complicated agreement, was entered into between the Secretary of State for War and the Public Works Loans Commissioners with regard to Scotland, and on the 21st with regard to England. Was the Secretary to the Treasury quite sure that the mere fact of his having got the Resolution authorising the expenditure of the money was a sufficient authority on which to proceed with the transaction? What was the meaning of this clause? The hon. Gentleman had got authority to spend this money in this way. He had made an agreement which set forth exactly what he proposed to do, and what was the use of rehearsing that, and duplicating the effect of a Resolution which had already been passed by the House? The Under-Secretary for the Colonies had told them with great force that the real ground upon which the proposal in Clause 5 rested was the prospect that in Nigeria there would be found a new supply of raw material for the great cotton industry. That was a very good and reasonable ground upon which to make this expenditure, but what he desired to call attention to were the dealings of the Government with the British Cotton Growing Association, to which the hon. Member below the Gangway had alluded. That association had been largely supported by contributions from the Lancashire operatives in conjunction with the employers to see what could be done to develop the sources of cotton supply in the British Empire. The Government had made this Association a grant of £1,000 a year. What had happened was that this association, which was being subsidised by the Government, had joined hands with one of several private companies called the British East Africa Corporation, Ltd. If grants of this kind were to be continued, some care should be taken to see that public money was not used to help one private company and give it an unfair advantage over other companies.

said that the grant to the British Cotton Growing Association was to assist in carrying out certain educational work in connection with cotton growing, and the association used for that purpose one of these companies.

said that that only reinforced what he had already said. His point was that the British Cotton Growing Association, which the right hon. Gentleman subsidised with public money, favoured the British East Africa Corporation as against other companies trading in the same region in exactly the same way, and he was giving them an unintended advantage with public money. Clearly the effect was to give this one private company an advantage over its rivals.

said this company was employed to perform a particular service and the money was paid for value received.

said it was public money and it gave this company a distinct advantage over the other companies. He hoped that in future loans dealing with Colonial matters would not be made out of the Local Loans Fund. That was utterly unprecedented. He trusted that the Government would not talk so much about financial control and financial purity. They should see that in future the Public Works Loans Bill was confined to the definite purpose for which the Public Works Loans Commissioners were instituted. Grants like these ought to be regularised, and not pitch-forked into a Bill where they ought not to appear at all. They should be put into proper form in a Colonial Loans Bill.

said the Under-Secretary to the Colonies had placed the greatest weight upon the argument that this railway would do something to broaden the area from which the supplies of raw material for the cotton industry was drawn. That argument was also supported by the hon. Member for Bolton. He hoped the arguments which had been brought forward in favour of broadening the basis of our cotton supplies would hold good with regard to sugar, and that the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared favourably to consider schemes to further any plans for increasing the basis of our sugar supply in order to avoid "corners." The Report of Sir Frederick Lugard proceeded on the assumption that the construction of tramways was preferable to the railway. He was glad the right hon. Gentleman had come to the conclusion that it was preferable to begin right off with the construction of a railway, although he hoped the Government would consider the advisability of using tramways as feeders of the railway. As to Jamaica, he did not see anything in the Bill as to the repayment of the loan. He imagined that', the Act of 1899 having been incorporated in this Bill, it was not necessary to state exactly the time, provided that it was any time within fifty years. If any time had been agreed upon, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would state what it was. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury had suggested that possibly only £75,000 of the £800,000 would be required by the Government of Jamaica for Government purposes. He would like the hon. Gentleman to state exactly what was proposed to b3 done with the money. If it was only to repair or rebuild Government buildings, it might be ample, but if it was also to make good the sewers which had been broken by the earthquake in Kingston, he doubted whether £75,000 would be sufficient to cover the cost. It would be necessary to have a re-survey of the whole of Kingston Harbour and the approaches to it. At the present time the approaches were dangerous owing to the fact that the whole bottom had been shifted by the earthquake. That would entail considerable expense. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could give some information regarding that, for as the Bill stood the Government of Jamaica might find themselves tied down in the use of the money to the repairing and rebuilding of Government buildings. Would the money cover the cost of reconstructing the sewers of the town?

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said he would like to express his thanks to the Government for what it was proposed to do. He believed that their outlay would very shortly be remunerative in its character. The prosperity of Northern Nigeria was bound to be stimulated by such a proposal and in a secondary degree the prosperity of Lancashire would also be stimulated. As he happened to be connected with the cotton industry he would like on behalf of the cotton trade to express his thanks for the broad and statesmanlike interest the Government had taken in the matter. The proposal had been described as a step towards tariff reform. The term "tariff reform" seemed to have a wide and far-reaching elasticity, which made it very fascinating. He was in favour of tariff reform when it could be shown to be for the advantage of this country, he was against it when it could not be shown that it was for the benefit of this country. This policy of getting our raw material from Northern Nigeria would give us the advantage of a new source of supply, without restricting or impeding any existing sources of supply.

said he was glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer had carried out the promise made to the Irish Members as to the rate of interest on local loans, in Ireland. He noticed that by Clause 7 of the Bill power was taken to take away from the Public Works Loans Commissioners the power to lend, and to hand it over to the Board of Works in Ireland. He was totally opposed to any such transaction and to the putting of further powers into the hands of that Board. He might be told that the idea of an Irishman objecting to that was against the general policy of which they were supposed to be in favour. If this were an Irish Board run by Irishmen he might agree that he was mistaken in the view he had expressed, but when he knew that it consisted of promoted private secretaries, and that on every possible opportunity it stood in the way of the development of the industries of Ireland he did not think they should be entrusted with any further power. He had listened to the instructive speeches which had been made in regard to the development of the trade and industry of Northern Nigeria. That territory was going to get £2,000,000, and the Under-Secretary h id made an interesting speech on the subject. But what was surprising was that the Government should be so carefully protecting the interests of Nigeria when they refused to take any step for the protection of a single industry in Ireland. The Irish Members were anxious to develop Ireland by a better system of harbours. The Irish Members, the Chief Secretary, the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture, were all in favour of legislation on that subject, and one would have supposed that Ireland would have got it. But there stepped in the body called the Commissioners of Public Works, and by inserting in the proposed legislation some ridiculous clause they h d cause 1 the remedial legislation for the benefit of Ireland to be dropped.

The Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland drafted a Bill which was introduced by the Chief Secretary and the Attorney-General for Ireland, and it had the approval of the whole of the Government and of the English Treasury.

said that in dealing with this body he was fully entitled to refer to the methods they had followed up to the present time. He still said that the remedial legislation with respect to piers and harbours had to be dropped, owing to the attitude taken up by the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland.

said that every item in the statement made by the hon. Member was absolutely inaccurate.

declared that these so-called Commissioners of Public Works had prevented efficient works from being carried out, and he was absolutely opposed to the granting to them of greater powers than they had at the present time.

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said that no one would disagree with the proposals of the Government in regard to the construction of the railway in Nigeria, and the assistance to be given to Jamaica. He would support them in the policy with respect to both which had been ably explained to the House by the Under-Secretary for the Colonies. The only complaint he had to make was that the Colonial loans should be included in a Public Works Loans Act. He and his friends did not think that was the right way to ask the House to authorise a loan. The Bill proposed that £3,000,000 should be made available for loans to public bodies in Great Britain, and £700,000 to public bodies in Ireland, for the purposes of public works. There was nothing in the Bill to show the purposes to which these large sums of money were to be applied, and it was not within the reach of any ordinary Member of the House to ascertain how the money was to be spent. Some time ago attention was drawn to the unlimited expenditure of public money derived from the Public Works Loan Commissioners by local bodies throughout the country. Before this Government came into power, the policy of the late Government on that question was generally understood, but no statement had yet been made as to the policy of the present Government. It was eminently undesirable that the expenditure of the country should be increased by the increased expenditure of local authorities for local purposes, considering the large demand it made on the money market for money to provide these loans. He thought that some explanation should be made as to how this sum of £3,000,000 was to be provided, and how it was to be spent. There was nothing in the Bill, at any rate, to show how the money was to be spent. The question had already been discussed as to the extraordinary transaction between the Traesury and the War Office in regard to certain loans and mortgages which had been transferred. The explanation given by the Financial Secretary to the War Office only showed that there had been an agreement between the Treasury and the War Office that certain loans should be transferred from the former to the latter. But that transaction had been entered into without the authority of the House, and the explanation of the hon. Gentleman amounted to a confession that it was invalid, and could have no force whatever until this Bill was passed. He pressed for some information as to how the £3,000,000 provided for in the first clause was to be spent in the United Kingdom, and the £700,000 to be spent in Ireland.

said he rose for the purpose of supporting the hon. Member for Newry in the protest he had made against the course which was being pursued in relation to this matter, which was one of great importance. The Board to which it was proposed to transfer certain sums was one over which Irish opinion had no more control than over the affairs of the island of Jamaica. The Irish Members in opposing this step grounded their protest on the fact that the Irish Board of Works, with whose operations they were perfectly familiar, was an absolutely incompetent body which during many years of opportunity succeeding in doing nothing whatever that had resulted in any benefit to the country, with whose interests they were supposed to be concerned. He challenged this step. The very fact that the Board of Works was being entrusted with the power of giving loans would prevent applications from being made by local authorities for loans for the construction and improvement of piers and harbours. Who had asked, he wished to know, for the transfer of this power? Was any complaint made against the people who had formerly dealt with the money? Had the harbour or other local authorities asked for the transfer?

said that since 1875 the Irish Board of Works had been restricted in their loans for public works, and since then no Act had been passed enabling them to lend money to local bodies for public works. The transfer of the powers of the Public Works Loan Commissioners to the Irish Board of Works was a comparatively small matter, and no very large transaction was likely to be affected by this transfer, which had been made at the request of the Public Works Loan Commissioners themselves. Quite the contrary would be the case. He might mention that since 1897 the Public Works Loan Commissioners had granted loans to Ireland to the amount of £10,000,000,while England had been granted practically nothing. The Bill was intended to unify procedure in England and Ireland.

drew attention to the fact that for seventeen years the people of the West of Ireland had been asking Parliament to enable them to spend their own money on piers and harbours, and if the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture would only visit that part of Ireland he would be able to see what a lamentable state of affairs existed there as regarded piers and harbours. Many such works were vitally necessary. Those who were responsible for the carrying out of marine works were quite willing that effect should be given to the wishes of the county councils, and he could not see why it was necessary that an Act of Parliament should be passed to enable them to spend their own money.

*

said that what the hon. Member was referring to was not relevant to the Bill before the House. The hon. Gentleman would require another measure to make what he wanted effective.

said he understood that the Bill before the House was to enlarge the powers of the Irish Public Works Board. In his opinion that Board was too powerful already; and certainly some way should be found for getting out of the dilemma so as to provide loans of public money for piers and harbours in the West of Ireland.

*

said that a grant to a particular harbour could not be introduced into this Bill. What the hon. Gentleman wanted would require special legislation. Qestion,, put, and agreed to. Bill read a second time. Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—(Mr. Runciman.)

Vaccination (Scotland) Bill Lords

Considered in Committee, and reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

Public Health (Scotland) Amendment Bill Lords

Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

Vaccination Bill

Lords Amendment considered.

Lords Amendment—

In page 1, at lines 10 and 11, to leave out the words 'either` parent or such other person as the case may be', and to insert the word he.'

Read a second time.

*

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD
(Dr. MACNAMARA, Camberwell, N.)

explained that when the Bill was read a second time, it provided that no parent should be liable to prosecution if "he" made a statutory declaration that he believed that vaccination would be injurious to the health of his child. Then a provision was introduced to the effect that the declaration might be made by " either parent " or any other person having the custody of the child. In another place the Amendment which they were discussing was carried, confining the right to make such a statutory declaration to the father of the child. The Government did not, in regard to the law as it now stood, seek to do anything except to substitute a statutory declaration for the present procedure, and they proposed with some regret, to accept this Amendment, which was put forward on the ground that no person had the right to claim exemption, except the person who was liable in respect of the penalty for neglect. He frankly admitted that it was the father who was in charge of the child and although he believed some magistrates actingultra vires had allowed the mother to attend, and claim a certificate of exemption still they ought not to have done so. The objection to the father coming And making a declaration was that he lost a day's work, but the answer to that was that the statutory declaration would not occupy the time which one under the Act of 1898 would take. The man would not be subject to examination, and the declaration might now be made either before a single Justice of the Peace or a solicitor who was a Commissioner for Oaths' " There were many Justices of the Peace and many solicitors in that position, and therefore there need be no waste of time. If they insisted upon this Amendment, under the authority of Sir Erskine May the Bill would be lost unless the Lords waived the Amendment they proposed to make. They were, therefore, on the horns of a dilemma, but on the whole he recommended the House to accept the Lord's Amendment. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

called attention to the fact that there were several differences between the Scottish and the English Bill. In the Scottish Bill there was a retrospective clause enabling parents to obtain exemption for all children under fourteen years of age. That was a distinct improvement on the English Bill.

*

said the hon. Member was not entitled to discuss the Bill but only the Amendment before the House

said he was dealing with the question of why, if the Scottish Bill was passed in that form, he English Bill should not also be framed on the same lines. This Bill would be particularly hard on people n country districts who lived a long way from Justices of the Peace or solicitors who were Commissioners for Oaths. There were no Commissioners except in county towns, and a man would have to give up a day's work in order to make a declaration before a solicitor and get him to witness it. If a man had only fifteen shillings a week it was very hard to ask him to give up day's work in order to go before a magistrate or a Commissioner for Oaths, and in addition pay 1s. 6d. as the cost of making a declaration. The Committee of this House inserted words to remove this injustice, but the House of Lords had deleted them and with this deletion they were asked to agree. He thanked the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he had dealt with the Bill, but he might say that if it were lost there were a great many people in the country who would not regret it. These peddling attempts to mitigate a great injustice were of doubtful benefit. The more the stream was dammed the greater would be the breach, and the greater the rush of water when that breach took place. He would not move to disagree with the Lords Amendment, but he wished to enter a grave and formal protest against its action, which would increase the number of persons who would not obtain exemption. In the country districts if the mother was not allowed to go and get an exemption there were many working men who would dread to go before the squire, in whose service they were, to get one, as they would feel that they were endangering their employment by making a declaration. Then again these poor people had a difficulty in giving the time to get these exemptions, and this seemed to him to be a special hardship which the House of Lords need not have inflicted upon poor suffering people. Some of them had tried to save the people from that great hardship. In the case of the poor person, the mother of a sick vaccinated child had to sit up all night with it, but that did not apply in the case of the rich, because after the vaccinator had made his marks, if the child was ill there were nurses to attend to it.

*

said the hon. Genleman was wandering from the point, which was whether the House should agree with the Lords Amendment.

said he would at once obey the ruling of the Chair, but what he wished to do was to protest against a mother being debarred from attending and asking for this relief, a right which this House intended to give her.

*

said he wished to express his regret that the Government could not 'see their way to resist the Lords Amendment and that the point had been surrendered. This Amendment was only passed in another place by a majority of five, and he was afraid that the other House, in regard to this particular Amendment, and also in reference to other questions concerning compulsory vaccination, had shown a disregard not only of the recommendations of Committees and Commissions, the requirements of sanitary science, and of public convenience. It was by a single vote in a House of fifteen Peers that repeated penalties for non-vaccination had been continued twenty-five years. He therefore thought the House should scrutinise with care the rejection of its Amendments by the other House. The Royal Commission, of which he was a member, after a brief consideration, dismissed as utterly ridiculous the attempt to enforce repeated penalties. Though he would have been glad to see the Bill go further he accepted it as an advance in the direction of the abolition of compulsion in a matter in which compulsion could not much longer be maintained.

*

quite appreciated the position of the Government, but wished to enter his protest against the manner in which another place had acted. It was not until after great consideration upstairs that they admitted the provision that the mother was a person who could make the application for the exemption of her child. After all, the mother was the person who was responsible for the health of the child, and she, he thought, should certainly be allowed to make the declaration.

*

said that it was hardly fair to represent this as a case of the House of Lords overruling the will of the House of Commons. As the Bill was originally introduced, it only provided that "he"—that was the responsible parent, namely the father, if there was a father living—should alone have power to apply for the exemption, but when the Bill was before the Standing Committee hon. Members moved to leave out the word "he" and insert "either parent or such other person as the case may be," which would enable a mother to make the application for exemption, even where there was a father living. The President of the Local Government Board resisted the Amendment on its merits, and not on any ground of expediency, and when the Committee went to a division it was only carried by the small majority of two, the numbers being sixteen to fourteen, and the President voting in the minority. When the Bill came before that House he himself put down an Amendment to restore it to its original shape, but, unfortunately, he was not there at the moment when he was called upon to move, so that this House as a whole had never had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon the question. In these circumstances this could not, he repeated, be represented as a case in which the House of Lords had sought to overrule the wishes of this House and of the Government. All t hey had done was to restore the Bill to the shape in which it was brought in, and in favour of which the Government had argued and voted. There was another circumstance which was very significant. After the Amendment in question had been carried in the Standing Committee of this House, the Scottish Vaccination Bill was brought in in the Lords in the form in which the father only could object, and 'that Bill was introduced into the Lords by the Government. He was opposed to the Bill as a whole, but he did not oppose the Scottish Bill, in this House as the English Bill had been passed and he thought there should be parity of treatment. But the argument now advanced would make a difference between the Scottish and the English Bills. He thought he had shown that the House of Lords, so far from overruling the decision of this House, had only registered the opinions of the Government. The only argument against the Lords Amendment was that the father might lose a day's work. But, really, that question did not arise, as the making of a declaration would only take a few minutes. When the man went before the Commissioner for Oaths or magistrate under this Bill, the matter would be treated as a formal one, and the process might be gone through in the evening or at any other time of the day. Moreover, it was only fair to point out that the father was the person responsible, and against whom an order would be made in the event of vaccination not being carried out. He was the person who would be summoned, and who would have to pay the fine if convicted, and, therefore, it was he who ought to say whether he desired exemption or not. It would be a deplorable thing to have a conflict between father and mother on this question, and to have the mother making an application for exemption when the father desired that vaccination should take place. For himself, he thought it was the person who was responsible for the fine who should be the person to apply for the exemption, and he thought the Bill, as originally brought in, and as it passed the House of Lords, was in the right form.

said that there was very little to be said in addition to the very able statement of his hon. friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board, and he only intervened for a few minutes to deal with some criticisms which had been made upon the action of the Government, but which he thought were made under a misapprehension of the case. His hon. friend the Member for Sleaford had rather overestimated and exaggerated the difficulty of making a statutory declaration. Under the old procedure the certificate of exemption could only be obtained from a magistrate in Court, whereas this Bill provided for a statutory declaration and superseded that process. In the former case the father could only go to a criminal Court and was treated more or less as one of the persons before that Court and was associated with the persons who were before it. The object of the Government was now secured in the last Amendment. The authorities would be more accessible to a larger number of people who desired to make the statutory declaration. Besides 10,000 Commissioners for Oaths there were 18,000 Justices of the Peace available, before whom the statutory declaration could be made, and the applicant would still have the opportunity of going before a magistrate. Beyond the number of new people before whom statutory declarations might be made, a man need not now leave his work in order to procure exemption, because from 12 o'clock on Saturday to 9 or 10 o'clock in the evening he could make his application; and the Justices of the Peace were only too pleased to carry out the work, which they discharged with great tact and ability. The workmen could approach them and they were offered every facility. There was no comparison between the conditions which the Bill offered and the old conditions which they superseded. The other point was as to the hardship on the father. He believed that with the new opportunity which the father had for making the statutory declaration, the complaint which they had under the old conditions as to losing time would disappear. With all respect to anti-vaccinators, was it not time that they recognised the fact that the tendency of modern life was unfortunately to place on the woman any responsibility there was in the bringing up of children. Personally, he did not regard that as a condition of things which they should encourage in any way whatever. It seemed to him that the mother, on whom was placed the pain and suffering of childbirth and the nursing of the children in sickness, ought to be free from these responsibilities relating to vaccination, and that the statutory obligation ought to be placed on the father, whose tendency would be, he was sure, to relieve the mother of this responsibility; he was sure that the best of them would do that. He could only say that they had removed existing hardships, and now offered facilities for making statutory declarations which brought home to the father, on whom it rested, the responsibility of doing his duty to society. He had a responsibility legally showable under this Act and many other Acts, and, therefore, they were not dealing with him harshly. In conclusion, he had to thank those hon. Members who had taken a very active and praiseworthy part in passing this Bill, and but for their efforts, and the kindly spirit in which they had adapted themselves to the requirements of the Government, who were compelled to make large demands upon their time and attention, they would probably not have had a Vaccination Bill at all. Question put, and agreed to.

Lights On Vehicles Bill

Lords Amendments considered.

Lords Amendments to the Amendment in rage 2, line 29, agreed to.

Lords Amendment—

"In line 29, after the word rate,' to insert as a new subsection the words:—` (5) In the application of this section to the County of London, the London County Council shall be substituted for the council of a borough [and the county fund for the borough fund or rate], and, in the application of this section to the City of London, the mayor, aldermen, and commons of that City, in common council assembled, shall be substituted for the council of a borough, and [the consolidated rate for the borough fund or rate].'

the next Amendment read a second time, and having been amended by the insertion in parentheses, agreed to.

Remaining Lords' Amendments agreed to.

Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Bill

As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered."

*

moved to omit from Clause 5 the worth "or of separation and aliment." He hon. Member said he had no desire to obstruct the progress of this Bill, which consisted of fifty clauses and several schedules. The Bill, as they were told in Grand Committee, was to codify the law and practice of the Sheriff Courts, a tribunal of ancient origin and analagous to the County Court of England and Wales. No doubt the main provisions of the Bill had that object but there were clauses which admitted no extended and in some cases gave an entirely new jurisdiction, and it was in relation to one of such instances where a new jurisdiction was sought that he proposed the Amendment which stood in his name. As the law in Scotland stood at the present time, the only court which could grant relief in matrimonial causes was the Court of Session, and whether that relief has a decree of separation only or of dissolution of marriage. But the few words which he proposed to strike out would, if retained, make a momentous change in Scotland with regard to the law of marriage. These words, if not left out, would for the first time give the Sheriff Courts the right to make decrees of judicial separation. He had looked into the law of Scotland as to separation and divorce, and he found that it was very similar to that of England. It was of very great importance that they should do nothing to weaken the marriage tie or to enable it to be too lightly dissolved or even loosened. This Bill was very largely founded on the Report of the Departmental Committee which was appointed by the late Government, the sheriffs, and members of the body of Scottish advocates, as well as Writers to the Signet, had given evidence before the Committee. One witness, Mr. Walter James Lewis, a Writer to the Signet, who was asked as to the prudence of decrees of separation and aliment being placed in the jurisdiction of the Sheriff Courts, said he thought that if this matter was put into the Sheriff Courts it would make things far too easy for people who had matrimonial difficulties. The witness went on, in the same strain, that it would be a danger to give this jurisdiction to the Sheriff Courts and that it would not be for the good of the parties that they should be able to get such decrees in that court, and that there was no hardship in requiring them to go to the Court of Session, as none had any difficulty there to get an action either on the Poor Law or off it. At present, Scotland did not possess the jurisdiction which was vested in the Justices of the Peace in England to grant separation orders in cases of cruelty. That jurisdiction had been in existence now for some ten years, and he should like the House to know the view of ministers of religion, especially in the East End of London, as to the result of these separation orders, which, without doubt, had honeycombed the East End with immorality, for, in many cases, the separated man and wife lived a life of immorality, often dwelling quite close to each other, though not aware of the fact. The issue of these separation orders had done a great deal to alter the moral tone of the crowded districts. Ministers of religion had found it necessary to speak out in no uncertain tone in regard to the conditions in their different districts, and he felt certain that if a Commission of Inquiry were appointed to go into the subject the information which would be gathered would be such as to make the House pause before it allowed the present condition of things to go on. The object of his Amendment was to prevent the Sheriff Courts from having power to deal with these matters so as to render impossible a similar state of things being produced in the crowded cities of Scotland. The Sheriff Court was essentially a Court for the recovery of small debts, and he submitted that it was most undesirable that it should have conferred upon it power to grant separation orders. It was true that the Bill did not propose jurisdiction to dissolve marriage—but then a decree of judicial separation was but the first step in that direction, and it went a great way towards what was necessary to obtain the fuller decree. It was most desirable to prevent that state of things either in Scotland or elsewhere. In the minutes of evidence taken by the Departmental Committee, the President of the Procurators' Association in Midlothian called attention to irregular marriages, or non-ecclesiastical marriages, and he said that these approached almost to a scandal. In place of the procedure being recognised as a solemn and serious occasion it was rather carried through with a great amount of levity and laxity, and he believed the parties frequently appeared before the sheriff in a state of intoxication. To facilitate release from marriage would be to offer additional inducement to enter into that state carelessly and with indifference They were all aware of the old adage: "Marry in haste; repent at leisure." It was, he submitted, most undesirable that jurisdiction should be given to an inferior Court in matters affecting the marriage laws and marriage vows, and, therefore, he moved the omission of the words "or of separation and aliment," so as to prevent Sheriff Courts dealing with such actions. There were ample means available to a poor man to obtain a certificate enabling him to be put on the Poors Roll, indeed he believed greater facilities than to sue for a decreein forma pauperis in the probate and divorce division of the High Court of Justice in this country. If they wished to deal with the laws of marriage and divorce in Scotland they should deal with them by a substantive Bill, and not in this way. It was most undesirable that a few words should be slipped into a Bill of this sort at the end of the session, making such a drastic change in matrimonial relations in Scotland. He begged to move the Amendment standing in his name.

seconded. Amendment proposed—

In page 3, line 32, to leave out the words 'or of separation and aliment.' " —(Mr. Nield.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

said that his hon. friend moved this Amendment in Committee, and on that occasion he advanced certain reasons against it. The vote of the Committee was against the Amendment. He thought at this stage it would be most inopportune and misleading if he were to enter into%a disquisition upon that very interesting subject in history and romance, the marriage laws. He might be wrong, but he was inclined to think that the hon. Member had not read the actual terms of the Report of the Commission. The Report of the Commission on which this Bill was founded was a most authoritative document, being signed by a former Lord Advocate, a distinguished Judge, and several Sheriffs. It expressly declared that the jurisdiction of the Sheriff Courts should be extended so as to cover actions for separation, that persons should not be caused the expense o going to the Court of Session in obtaining a separation order, and that this could be done under the judicial procedure of the Sheriff Courts, which was perfectly dignified, regular, and appropriate. It might be the case that an aggrieved person abtained a separation order too easily in England in the magistrate's court, but in Scotland the other extreme was reached, because those who desired separation orders had to go to the Court of Session because they could not use the procedure of the Sheriff Courts. A highly skilled Commission had reported that people should not be driven to the expense of going to the Court of Session to obtain a separation order, and it was upon that recommendation that this Bill was founded. He hoped his hon. Friend would not press this Amendment.

hoped his hon. friend would not insist upon his Amendment, because he was inclined to think that the arguments he had put forward were based upon a misconception. The Report recommended the adoption of the principle contained in this Bill, and also that the Sheriff Courts should have the power to remit such cases to the Court of Session. He did not know whether power to remit to the Court of Session was given in the Bill He thought his hon. friend would be well advised if he did not press this matter further.

said this was purely a matter of Scottish law, and the Lord Advocate had said that no harm could result from it. At the present time the only way a separation order could be obtained in Scotland was by an application to the Court of Session, which was a very expensive matter. What he wished to point out was that until the change of the law was introduced in England the same state of things prevailed in this country, and the alteration was made to meet cases of hardship where a wife had been bullied and assaulted by her husband. He believed that if the right hon. Gentleman made inquiries he would find that grave doubt existed as to whether the change made in the law in this respect in England had, on the whole, been beneficial. taking all things into consideration. The change had led to a great deal of immorality, and the protection it was intended to give had been much less than w as anticipated. He thought his hon. friend who had moved this Amendment was entitled to ask the House seriously to consider this question in view of what had taken place in this country.

said he agreed that probably they had gone too far in this matter in England. They had, however, proceeded in a much more regular and dignified form in Scotland. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

said there were several arithmetical miscalculations which he desired to correct in which the word "ten" had been inserted instead of the word "two." He asked the House assent to this correction being made. Amendments proposed—

In page 34, line 8, to leave out the word, 'ten,' and to insert the word 'two.' "
In the first schedule to leave out the word 'ten,' and to insert the word 'two.'
In line 12, to leave out the word 'ten,' and to insert the word two.'
In line 19, to leave out the word 'ten,' and to insert the word two.'
In line 20, to leave out the word 'ten,' and to insert the word 'two.'
In line 22, to leave out the word 'ten,' and to insert the word 'two.'—(Mr. Thomas Shaw.)
Amendments agreed to. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."—(Mr. Thomas Shaw.) Question put, and agreed to. Bill read the third time, and pasesd.

Whale Fisheries (Scotland) Expenses

Resolution reported, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of expenses incurred by the Fishery Board for Scotland in pursuance of any Act of the present session to regulate Whale Fisheries in Scotland."

said it was difficult to form an estimate at present of the expenses, but so far as the Fisheries Board was concerned, they would not be considerable.

said he really could not understand why the right hon. Gentleman had thought it necessary to take any financial powers in connection with the measure. It was proposed to levy £100 on each steamer engaged in the work. As there were fifteen or sixteen steamers so employed the Scottish Fisheries Board would probably obtain £1,500 or £1,600 by granting licences. He did not see anything in the Bill likely to involve the expenditure of that sum, and therefore he did not see the necessity for this Resolution.

said the expenses of administration would not be large, acid as the Estimates for the Fisheries Board would come under the review of Parliament the House would be able to see whether the work was being done with due economy. He was sure no Member of the House would wish to hamper the Board in the administration of the Act by want of funds. This Resolution which was in the form usual in such circumstances was to ensure that the necessary money would be provided to carry out the will of Parliament. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that the work would be carried out with due regard to economy. Resolution agreed to.

Whale Fisheries (Scotland) Bills

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

moved to omit the words "or other products." He said they all knew that a certain amount of nuisance was occasioned by the cutting up of whales, and the clause provided that those who engaged in the industry must obtain a licence from the Fisheries Board at a cost of £100. But there were certain products of whales which could be treated without causing any danger to fisheries or nuisance to the public. There were, for instance, whalebone and the material with which cushions and chairs were stuffed. Did the Solicitor-General mean that those who carried on these industries should pay £100 a year for a licence to do so?

said if that was so, more precise words than "or other products should be inserted in the clause. As the clause stood he thought it required explanation. Amendment proposed—

In page 1, lines 6 and 7, to leave out the words or other products.' " —(Lord Balcarres.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

said the noble Lord the Member for Marylebone called his attention a few weeks ago to the words referred to, and suggested that they should receive further consideration. He was at first inclined to the view which had been expressed by the noble Lord the Member for the Chorley Division, but he had consulted those who with himself had been responsible for the drafting of the Bill, and. he was told that the words "from whales" in line 6 governed the words 'of oil or other products" which followed. That being so, the words which the noble Lord proposed to leave out were not open to misapprehension in the way he suggested. The words in the clause followed closely the words in the Newfoundland Act which dealt with the same thing.

said he did not regard what the right hon. Gentleman had said as any explanation at all. The right hon. Gentleman professed to sympathise with the view of the mover of the Amendment, but he wished to retain words in the clause which should be omitted if there was to be no doubt as to what was intended. The clause said—

No person shall in any part of Scotland land any whale, or engage in any way in the manufacture from whales of oil or other products, without a licence granted and issued subject to the conditions hereinafter provided..."
In the instance which had already been given, namely, the manufacture of the material with which cushions were stuffed, did the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that that was not a manufacture from whales of a clear and definite product? If he did, it was a remarkable contention. The right hon. Gentleman did not want manufacturers to be penalised, and, therefore, he should accept the Amendment.

said he understood the right hon. Gentleman to state that there was no objection to any legitimate industries, which did no harm, to the public and which did not injure the fishing industry and that, therefore, they were not included in the words "or other products." The industries to which he referred were not subject to Governmental supervision, to the £100 licence, or to the penal clauses. Did these include the manufacture of manures or fertilisers? Were people to pay £100 licence fee and be subject to the other provisions of the Act? The manufacture of fertilisers was a nuisance and ought to be supervised. Did the words "other products" include the manufacture of whalebone, which was not a nuisance?

said he wished to make a suggestion to the Secretary for Scotland which he might consider before the Report stage and which might meet the objection urged by his noble friend, viz., to confine the limitations laid down in the first clause to the manufacture of oil and other products to the cases referred to under Clause 2 of the Bill. That would obviate all difficulty as to the manufactures which could be carried on in these factories which were really whaling stations.

said he would have no objection to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but it was impossible to alter the phrasing of the clause as to what were manufactures. The phrase was inserted in order to confine operations to manufactures from whales, and had been drafted with the best possible available advice. His advisers informed him that the words in the Bill really met the noble Lord's contention. While there would be restrictions on the primary manufactures from whales, there would be no restrictions on manufactures in a secondary or tertiary degree.

said he would withdraw his Amendment, but he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would meet the case he had pointed out by inserting on the Report stage the word "primary" on line 7, after the word "other."

said he would be glad to consider the matter, but he could not give encouragement now to the idea that they would find any better words than those contained in the clause. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

said he proposed the insertion of the words on the Paper in order to meet the objection which had been raised on the Second Reading by the hon. Member for Sevenoaks. Amendment proposed—

In page 1, line 7, after the word products,' to insert the words 'or within three miles of low-water mark of any part of the coast of Scotland, pursue, kill, or shoot at any whale.' "—(Mr. Sinclair.)
Question proposed, "That those words-be there inserted."

said he was glad that the right hon. Gentleman had agreed to insert these words, because they went a long way to remove many of the objections he had to the clause as introduced. If this Bill was to become an Act, as he hoped it would, he wanted it to serve the purposes it was intended to accomplish. They were going to licence under the Bill most of the persons engaged in whale fishery in the North of Scotland. But a loophole would still remain, after the Amendment was passed, which would allow persons who were not licensed to kill, pursue, or shoot whales where they pleased. Subsection of Clause 5 said—

Nothing in this Act contained shall make it unlawful for any person to pursue any of the whaling industries commonly followed in arctic or antartic waters, or to engage in the manufacture of oil or other products from whales captured in the exercise of any such industry.
So far as he was aware there was nothing to prevent anyone under that subsection from pursuing, killing, or shooting whales, or cutting up the whales within the three miles limit. If that were so, the Bill would fail in its object, which was to remedy a grievance felt by the fishermen of Scotland—a splendid body of men for whom they ought to do anything they could. Their grievance would not be remedied, because some people would not take out a licence, and would establish floating factories outside the three-mile limit, and would come after whales within the three-mile limit under the very noses of those who had to pay the licence. That was very undesirable. There was another object which the Bill was designed to effect. It had been represented that the mussel beds in shallow waters were being poisoned by the floating refuse of the whales.

said that the hon. Gentleman's remarks were not quite pertinent to the Amendment before the Committee, although they might be relevant to the question that Clause I stand part of the Bill.

said he did not think this Amendment was necessary, because whales did not come within the three miles limit, or at any rate not in sufficient numbers to allow of their pursuit for profit. They were always thirty or forty miles out.

said he quite agreed with the object of the Amendment which was to prevent whales being pursued, shot at, or killed within the three miles limit. He also agreed with his hon friend that there would be no chance of so doing, but he thought this was a very clumsy way of providing for the object desired to be attained. A far more simple method could be found, and he hoped if only for the sake of neat and workmanlike draftsmanship the right hon. Gentleman would withdraw this Amendment, and merge this secton into Clause 4, which, with the addition of a very few lines, would give the result desired.

said he had considered these Amendments which had only been put down at the last moment as well as he could, but not so adequately as he would have liked, and he thought there was in them some indication of haste. He noticed, for instance, that the right hon. Gentleman had not put down an Amendment corresponding to the one before the House to Clause 4, which was necessary if this Amendment was to be incorporated in the Bill. But like the Bill these Amendments were not very effective. His objection was to the very drastic way in which the Bill was drawn. Nobody within the three miles limit was to pursue, shoot at, or kill a whale. But as the right hon. Gentleman knew, it frequently happened that in the great swirls that follow a storm these great mammals were driven within the three miles limit and become landlocked or stranded. Now if a whale got stranded in that way the poor animal would have to lie there, and if any man shot it to put it out of its misery he was liable to a heavy penalty. It was a case which did not often happen, but nevertheless one that had to be met. In the drastic terms in which this Bill was drafted no consideration was given to one of the ordinary incidents in the life of a whale. He submitted that this case ought to be further considered and that some modification should be introduced to meet a case in which some relief must be given.

said he was very anxious to meet the Committee in this matter, and in order to meet the noble Lord he would withdraw this Amendment and reconsider the question. If he found the Amendment was necessary he would reinstate it on Report and if not he would dispense with it altogether. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed—

In page 1, line 10, to leave out from the word `pounds ' to the end of clause." —(Mr. Bowles.)

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed, "That Clause I stand part of the Bill"

said when he was called to order on a previous Amendment he was commenting upon the fact that floating factories would be established and be more profitable, and he was pointing out that once those floating factories were established exactly the same inconvenience would arise as that of which they now complained. After the manufacture had taken place on these floating factories the carcases would be released and would float, and in some cases come ashore, when all the unhealthy conditions which were now complained of would again arise, and in other cases they would drift seawards and become a source of inconvenience and danger to the fishermen and fishing boats. But he thought this difficulty could be got over perfectly easily if the right hon. Gentleman would consider the advisability of excising Subsection 2 of Clause 5. He thought that they ought to put the licensed persons in as favourable a position as anybody else, but under the provisions of this Bill they put them in a less favourable position. He did not wish to labour this point, but would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether an Amendment could be made in the Bill in the direction he had indicated.

said that the effect of this Bill was unduly to harass an existing and flourishing industry. The causes which made it necessary were well known, and the effects of such harassing action could be readily anticipated. They might make it so difficult for these people in the north of Scotland to carry on their business that they would reconsider their position and act accordingly. At the present time with few exceptions the whale industry was carried on on the shore, and was carried on in the most efficient manner, but that was not the whole of the industry. The most highly organised part was carried on at sea by the blubber ships, which were at sea for months together. If this Bill was made too harassing by these huge penalties and licences, what would happen would. be that these blubber ships would not register in Scotland but elsewhere. Then these large and powerful vessels would be entitled to kill whales within the three miles limit or anywhere else. They were going to open up in regard to the whale industry those ridiculous controversies of which they had heard so much in the past with regard to trawling in the Moray Firth, where foreign vessels might trawl, and those of British subjects might not. These huge and powerful Arctic and Antarctic boats would be permitted to kill whales and make as much use of them as they could. But the system of these boats was a wasteful one. They killed more whales than they could properly use, and having taken the cream of the blubber from them they liberated the hugh carcases which, owing to their buoyancy, floated away to the shore and infected the water near the shore. Those carcases took weeks to disintegrate in the course of nature, and the nuisance would be infinitely greater than that caused by the remnants of a whale dealt with on the shore. By harassing the industry unduly they would drive the industry into other directions, which. might entail greater disadvantages on the industry and be infinitely more serious to Scotland. These were views which he certainly thought should be laid before the House.

hoped the Committee would weigh well the words that had fallen from the noble Lord the Member for the Chorley Division. He himself wished to urge another point which he thought the Committee ought to consider, and that was the very heavy blow that this Bill struck at what was at present a flourishing business. There were four of these whale factories in existence in the Shetlands, of which two were Norwegian, one nominally British but almost wholly Norwegian, and one entirely British. The first three were only doing fairly well, but the fourth employed five ships and did extremely well. If this Bill passed in its present form this flourishing industry would be transferred from the Shetland Islands to floating factories, and the amount of employment which they gave in the islands would be taken away. This Bill placed the limit of vessels that could be attached to a factory at three, and this prosperous concern had five. They were actually asked to reduce the number of steamers of a factory which gave a great amount of employment to the Shetlanders, and they should hesitate before they took that step.

said the more he considered the clauses of this Bill the more indefensible they seemed to be. It was a very serious thing, even after full consideration, to put such restrictions of a really serious character on an industry which had grown up owing to the needs and characteristics of a particular part of the British dominions, and in which a considerable amount of capital and labour was engaged. He did not see why these restrictions should be placed on the industry. It was said that the industry had resulted in a nuisance, but the scientific evidence given before the Committee did not bear out that fact, but on the contrary controverted it. No doubt when it was first started the industry did result in a nuisance, but with better equipment and more been methods that nuisance had been done away with. For many years past the industry had been so conducted that every scrap of the carcase of the whale was used up, even to the bones, which made cattle food and manure, and there was no nuisance now to any human being. Then there was the fantastic superstition that the catching of a particular kind of whale which inhabited the seas between thirty to eighty miles from Shetland would have a deleterious effect on the herring industry; but so far from this being the case recent experience had proved the contrary. For the last three or four years more of these whales had been caught than ever before, yet the herring fishery had not been destroyed. On the contrary it had increased. In 1903 the catch was 313,000 crans; in 1904, 543,000; in 1905 Shetland had nearly half the whole of the herring catch of Scotland, and in that year it reached the unprecedented figure of well over 1,000,000 crans. In face of those figures it could not be contended that there was any earthly grounds for thinking that the catching of a few hundreds of whales interfered with the herring fishing. The whole experience was the other way. Anybody who knew anything about fishing for herring or sprat or whale knew that whenever they came to legislate about deep-water fishing they always got into fearful difficulties and absurdities. What they must remember was that occasionally the herring fishery had a bad year from causes which they could not exactly ascertain, it might be that the failure of the fishery in a season was due to the water being too cold, to storms, or to other causes; still, they had no real knowledge on the point. The herring fishermen looked round, and, seeing that the fishing was not so good as in a previous year, or that it was bad, they said what they said in 1903 when the fishing was unprosperous, that there must be some cause for their industry going to pieces. "It must be this abominable whale industry," which was the only other thing they saw. They were really being asked to hamper, he believed to destroy, an industry which if left alone would grow, and against which there was no real ground of complaint that could be alleged by anybody who had any scientific knowledge on the subject. He entirely objected to this clause, because there was no real ground made out for it.

said the hon. Gentleman had dogmatised with some confidence on this subject, but he did not understand apparently the reason why the Government had been induced to bring forward this Bill or the object which they had in view. As the House knew, this measure attacked no one industry in favour of another, nor caused antagonism one to the other. The hon. Gentleman knew perfectly well that in no country in the world was whaling carried on as it was in this country, absolutely without restriction or licence of any kind.

said he did not compare this country with Iceland. Rightly or wrongly the fishermen engaged in the herring fishing were unanimously of opinion as to the dangers of whaling as at present carried on to their industry. Some held the view that it should be altogether prohibited. He agreed with the hon. Gentleman that the figures were altogether indisputable; they made out no case whatever for the prohibition of this industry. But he thought that there was a case made out for regulating the whaling industry. Regulations in his opinion could not fail to be of great advantage. In the first place, they might do something to allay the strong feeling which was undoubtedly held, rightly or wrongly, against this industry, and also to benefit the industry itself. The hon. Gentleman had used exaggerated words when he said that the whaling industry would be destroyed by this Bill. The experience of other countries went to show that there were large profits when it was carried on heedlessly for a time; but there came a period when the source of these profits became exhausted, and then the period of prosperity was followed by depression and even ruin. Under these circumstances some years ago the Government caused an inquiry to be made, which was followed by a Report, which in turn was followed by proposals which, however, did not pass into law on that occasion. The inquiry was taken part in by a representative of the whaling industry; the people of Shetland were directly interested in the question because of the stations established there; so that there was every consideration before the Committee which would tend to preserve and not harass the industry. Those who examined the Bill would see that it gave a certain amount of protection to those who were already engaged in the industry; it would also give a certain amount of security to those engaged in it because the industry would be carried on in a manner conducive to its best interests, and, as far as possible, in proportion to its raw material. That was the view of those engaged in the industry, with whom he had been in constant communication, and he had never read any protest whatever against the general policy of the Bill. Last autumn he had an opportunity of going through one of those factories, one of the best managed, and the gentleman responsible for the establishment said he had not a word to say against the proposals of the Bill. This was not a question of setting the interests of one industry above or below those of another. The proposed system of licensing prevailed in all other countries where the industry was carried on. It was agreeable to those who were engaged in the industry, and the object of the Government was simply to place the industry under proper regulations so that it might be properly and profitably carried on. There was no reason whatever for believing that the Bill was a harassing measure to those concerned, and he brought it before the House because he believed that, in the special conditions, it was seriously and anxiously desired by the people of Scotland who were interested in the question. He asked the Committee to believe that if this were not a measure which was highly desirable in the public interest it would not be pressed on the attention of the House at this period of the session, and he hoped that the Committee would co-operate in passing it into law.

*

said that his constituents were largely interested in this matter, and they made constant complaints against the trade as carried on at present. It had become such a nuisance that those engaged in it had, it was said, been driven out of their own country, and* they had brought the nuisance to this country. He believed that a great many of the fishermen would prefer that this industry were prohibited altogether, and they had a right to state that wish, because Scotland belonged to the Scottish people, and not to mere trusts which were making money out of this nuisance. Though the Bill did not go very far, they hoped that it would do something to regulate this dangerous business. Therefore, he trusted that the Bill would he passed this session, so that there might be something done to abate the nuisance which was so inimical to the fishing interests of Scotland.

said the Secretary for Scotland had stated that this clause would protect the herring industry from the injury done to it by whaling under the present conditions. He had also argued that the Bill would give stability to the whaling industry, and render it more profitable. He was lost in amazement in trying to reconcile these two arguments. He had been left in absolute doubt by the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, and they could not take his arguments as any explanation of the object of this measure.

said that as this was a Bill designed to protect British industries, he was inclined to support it on that ground.

said that the Bill would probably wipe out whale fishing and that was just what certain people in Scotland desired. In view of that fact it was somewhat remarkable that the right hon. Gentleman should tell the House that the Bill was being passed in order that whale fishing might become a useful and profitable industry, in which security of employment would be assured. Those were desirable objects, although he thought they were entitled to protest against the argument that the Bill was one simply to deal with local nuisances connected with whale factories. Question put, and agreed to. Clause 2:— Amendments proposed—

In page I, line 17, to leave out the words 'one month,' and to insert the words 'two months.'
In page 1, line 18, after the word 'thereof,' to insert the words once in each of two consecutive weeks with an interval between each publication of not less than six days.' " —(Mr. Sinclair.)
Amendments agreed to.

moved to leave out Subsection (4). He said he was in some little difficulty because he noticed that the right hon. Gentleman had put down some Amendments which very much modified the clause in the direction he desired.

moved to leave out the words "shall be lawful for the Board," in order to insert the words "the Board shall." He explained that the recommendation of the Committee which inquired into this subject was that no factory should have more than one steamer, and that was a very emphatic recommendation. They had, however, to deal with the existing state of things, not with atabula rasa; and, therefore, the clause had been so drafted as to allow existing establishments to have two additional steamers. By a later Amendment he proposed to substitute the word " three " instead of "two," making altogether four, which was the number that one of the existing companies had. He thought this would be a fair arrangement, and it was founded upon the procedure in other countries where they only allowed one steamer for a certain number of miles of the coast. Amendment proposed—

In page 2, line 16, to leave out the words 'It shall be lawful for the Board,' and to insert the words the Board shall.' " —(Mr. Sinclair.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

was understood to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman had considered that there might be differences in the capacity of steamers.

said that the steamers were practically of one pattern at present. They were specially equipped for the purpose of capturing and killing whales. The steamers were of a certain size, and they were manned by crews of a certain strength. The owners of the factories did not send out larger steamers than were necessary.

said he understood that the right hon. Gentleman did not wish to do anything to injure the business of factories at present engaged in this business. That being so, he wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman was absolutely certain that there was no factory employing more steamers than the number he proposed to authorise.

pointed out that the largest existing company, which was entirely British owned, had five steamers, but the Secretary for Scotland proposed only to allow them to have four. He had received a letter from the company on the subject. The proposal was not fair.

asked that the matter should be reconsidered before the Report stage. His hon. friend had pointed out that one company had five steamers, and it appeared to him that under the proposal of the right hon Gentleman their business might be interfered with if the number was limited to four.

said the Government had been in communication with those interested in the various points in the Bill, and, so far as he was aware, they had received no communication on this particular point. He had taken such steps as were open to him to ascertain the facts, and he thought the Government had gone to the utmost limit, and were doing substantial justice.

though the question should be reconsidered. If it could be shown that four was a reasonable number the right hon. Gentleman's position would be unassailable, but the statement made by the hon. Member for Blackpool indicated the necessity for further consideration.

said he had not received any information on the point. The communication which was sent to the hon. Member for Blackpool should have been addressed to those who were responsible for the Bill.

said the right hon. Gentleman desired to leave every existing factory in its present position, but the limitation of the number of steamers to four would operate unfairly in regard to the larger factories. The factories which at present employed one or two steamers would be able to extend their business until they had four steamers employed, but the large factories which now had four steamers would be precluded from developing their business further. That was on the asumption that all the steamers were exactly alike, but was that a reasonable assumption? Was it not likely that the moment the limit of four was applied, there would be an increase in the size of the steamers? There was no provision in regard to that in the Bill. By this regulation they would simply be paying a premium to the large and powerful factories under the excuse of diminishing whale fishing. It was only another instance of what was constantly seen, namely, a provision which was passed with one object operating in the opposite direction. The effect of the restrictions imposed would be to increase the size and power of the whaling steamers, and would thus defeat the object desired by the right hon. Gentleman. Amendment agreed to. Amendments proposed—

In page 2, line 20, to leave out the word to.'
In page 2. line 22, to leave out the word two,' and to insert the word three.'
In page 2, line 37, to leave out the word three,' and to insert the word 'four.' "—(Mr. Sinclair.)
Amendments agreed to.

said that the object of licensing a factory, workshop, or indeed any industry, was to give a certain status to it, and to grant the local authority or the Government a right of entry in order that the relations between the authorities and the factory should be clearly defined. He maintained that the licence duties sought to be imposed were unnecessarily severe. The £100 licence was not for each factory, but for each steamer; so that, a company owning four steamers would have to pay £400 in licences. He held that there were no other factories in this country which paid such high registration dues. There were no such licence duties on great collieries or groups of mines, but here they were proposing to impose a licence duty which might amount to a fourth of the whole capital of the industry which had been established by the energy of the people of Scotland. Why not put on a licence duty of £500 at once and kill the industry if the licence was to be taken as penal? In the case of a gunpowder factory, which permitted inspectors to go in and see that the work was properly carried out, the licence fee was merely nominal. Amendment proposed—

In page 3, lines 2 and 3, to leave out the words one hundred,' and to insert the word ten.' "—(Lord Balcarres.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

said that, of course, there was no penal intention at all. This licence duty had been fixed after very careful consideration. He was aware that in other countries the licence duties were very large. They amounted in Newfoundland to £300, although they had been lately reduced to £150. This was a very profitable industry, and some fund had to be found to meet the cost of administration. So far as he was aware he had no reason to believe that the people concerned considered the licence fee onerous; at any rate, it was not generally objected to.

asked leave to withdraw the Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed—

In page 3, lines 3 and 4, to leave out the words for each whaling steamer the use of which is authorised thereby.' "—(Mr. Bowles.)

said he hoped the hon. Gentleman would not press his Amendment. It would be unfair to the poorer factories who worked on a low scale with one steamer, while the large factories with more than one steamer would pay a smaller licence on each.

asked leave to withdraw the Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Clause 3:—

said it seemed to him that this clause placed the licensed persons at a disadvantage. Supposing the crews of two ships killed a whale just outside the three miles limit, the unlicensed person seemed to be at liberty to capture the creature and bring it alongside and tow it into port by another vessel, but the licensed person could only use his steamer apparently to kill the whale and bring it into port. The unlicensed person therefore enjoyed an advantage and the licensed person was penalised. Amendment proposed—

To leave out Sub-section 1."—(Mr. Forster.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

said that by this sub-clause the Government were simply giving effect to the general practice. In some cases steamers had been employed merely for the purpose of towing into port whales which had been killed by other steamers. This practice had given rise to great disputes. The whole point was purely a technical one, but the Government were merely carrying out what was recognised as the general practice in the matter. It was only fair that this provision should be made.

said the right hon. Gentleman said he was carrying out the general practice of the whaling industry, but he did not think that such a custom should prevail. The Bill would render it possible for a tow boat to take possession of any whales which they might find floating on the sea killed by other vessels.

said that matter did not arise till Clause 5. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved to leave out Subsection 3, for which he could find no justification. It provided that the harpoon should be fixed to the rail of the steamer. Amendment proposed—

To leave out Subsection 3.' "—(Mr. Forster.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.

"

said that the Government did not desire to do anything to favour lawlessness, but here again the provisions of the Bill were founded upon the general practice, and that was to have this fixed rope attached to the steamer, and to have the rope attached to the harpoon. No objection had been taken to this up to the present. He thought the subsection met the necessities of the case.

said, of course, the harpoon must be attached to the boat or vessel from which it was fired, but this provision said that it should be attached to the steamer from which the boat came.

said he was obliged to the hon. Gentleman for pointing out to him a desirable alteration of the Bill.

said the interpretation accepted by the right hon. Gentleman showed the absurdity of the whole thing Whether they liked it or not all ship( must carry the harpoon, and therefore al new inventions which might hereafter be discovered to kill whales in a more humane manner.

said it must be perfectly clear that this clause could only apply to small boats. In the ease of large steamers they could not have harpoons attached to them. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

moved to leave out the words which, gave the Fishery Board power to prohibit the shooting of whales within a distance of forty miles from low-water mark of any part of the coast of Scotland for a period not exceeding five weeks during the summer herring fishery. He did not think this was a power that should he given to the Scotch Fishery Board. A prohibition of that sort for five weeks during the time of the herring fishery would point to prohibiting the killing of whales for the whole year. It was a power which might be capriciously used to kill a prosperous industry.

said this provision was designed really to ensure that there should be no conflict between the whale industry and any particularly successful herring fishing that might be going on at the time. It would reconcile the herring fishery interest to the Bill, and the prohibition would not be harshly exercised.

complained that this provision would punish the licensed whalers very hardly indeed, while unlicensed whalers would be absolutely free from it. Licensed persons would be able to sail in waters over which the Fishery Board had no jurisdiction, and always provided that they were not observed by the officers of the Board or their unlicensed competitors might set this provision at naught. Ho really thought it very hard that they should be asked to pass a Bill which would give power over the people engaged in the industry, but not over the waters in which these people were carrying on their business. However good the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman might be, or however desirable his object, he would be put into a false position if he were given jurisdiction, for that was what it came to, miles out at sea from the coast of Scotland, where he had no jurisdiction at the present time. He thought that if the right hon. Gentleman had further time to consider the matter, he would see that the proposal could not be justified by the facts. He did not doubt that it was very desirable to allay the strong feelings which he had reason to know existed in the minds of the fishermen, but he really thought that when the right hon. Gentleman told them that the power would be very sparingly exercised, he gave them pretty clearly to understand that it was never meant to he exercised at all.

"

said he had found in his life that it was only discreet to exercise one's power when the opportunity was either legitimate or when it promised the success of one's efforts. He did not think that the opportunity would arise under the forty miles limit, nor did he think that it would offer a prospect of success. He approached this Bill in a non-controversial spirit, but he felt that he ought to divide the House against this provision, which it was injudicious to include in the measure, and which he thought would involve the right hon. Gentleman and his successors in endless difficulties. He did not believe for a single moment that it would ever have any real effect in curing or mitigating the evil to which it was ostensibly directed. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would not insist upon it.

said that if the right hon. Gentleman went on with this clause he might get into international difficulties. Suppose that some of those companies placed their ships under the Norwegian or German flag and did what was prohibited by this Bill with in the forty miles. He quite admitted that any British subject when he came ashore would be liable to the laws of this country and could be punished, but surely the right hon. Gentleman could not cause a Norwegian subject to be punished for doing something under the Norwegian flag outside the three-miles limit. It was a point to which the law officers of the Crown might turn their attention, because whatever the justiciary of Scotland had laid down with regard to the Moray Firth, he could not see that the country could be allowed, outside the three-miles limit, to exercise any jurisdiction except over British subjects.

said this was a very grave matter. They had no right forty miles out at sea. The three-miles limit was recognised by international agreement; it represented the limit of the tidal flow in the twenty-four hours. Then why was forty miles chosen? Why not 400, or any other limit they chose to name? But so far as the distance of forty miles was concerned, it so happened that in this part of Scotland they were 80 miles from the shore of a foreign country, and when they got out to sea forty miles with what reason could the argument on the part of the foreign country be resisted when they claimed that they had an equal claim with us to come from their shores a distance of forty miles and claim to exercise jurisdiction as was proposed by this Bill? Surely the Government might explain whether there was a particle of reason why they should fix upon forty miles. What justification was there from, the international point of view. The right hon. Gentleman knew he could not enforce it. And by this proposal ho was going to take away the wretched little gun-boat which was now watching the fishing industry of Scotland, and send it forty miles out to sea during certain specific weeks of the year. The fact was they were opening up a question which did not belong to this country alone. He submitted they were entitled to some explanation of this arbitrary selection of the limit of forty miles.

said that this limit of forty miles was based on the recommendation of the Committee, and was adopted as-affording a general protection of the kind which it was desired by the Bill to afford. The Committee would realise that there was no intention, nor was there anything in the Bill to harass or tend to destroy the industry. The Government were steering a course which they thought would be just to all interests. This provision was based on the recommendation of the Committee, who recognised that it was desirable to give the Fishery Board power to suspend the whaling trade for a short period while the summer herring fishing was going on. It was true that they would have no general power to enforce this regulation; but they would have the power to issue licences under particular conditions. He had some confidence in submitting this proposal, because no objections against it had reached the Board. There was no reason to believe—in fact it would be against the interests of all concerned—that this power of suspension would be used otherwise than discreetly. The herring was a most capricious fish. They sometimes appeared in great numbers, and there might be hundreds of boats engaged within forty miles around the coast of Scotland. That might be very exceptional, but if in such a case there was extremely profitable fishing going on, surely it would be wise to give power to the Fishery Board to prevent its being interfered with by whale fishing.

said he knew the right hon. Gentleman was anxious to do all he could in the interests of the herring fishing industry, but the fact seemed to be ignored that they might have the licensed person operating within two or three miles of an unlicensed person, and a great amount of bitterness was bound to be created by a system of that kind. He would not press his Amendment to a division, and although he had been silenced he was in no way convinced.

said that assuming the Board exercised its power in this matter the licensed person would be under a great disadvantage as compared with the unlicensed person. Could the right hon. Gentleman tell him what proportion the Scottish whalers who would be licensed bore to the total number of whalers in those waters. If the licensed Scottish whalers were the vast majority of the total number, there might be a great deal to be said in favour of this proposal.

contended that by this proposal they were making a preserve for the foreigner. He understood that these fishing grounds were equally close to Norway, and consequently the right hon. Gentleman was going to say to our own people, "You shall not do these things," when it was impossible for him to stop Norwegian ships doing the very same thing. It was ridiculous to make those fishing grounds simply a preserve for the foreigners. They could not punish foreigners for anything done outside the three-miles limit, and all they could do was to go to the company and say, "Unless you dismiss these foreigners we shall not give you a licence again."

said he had not yet heard a single voice raised on behalf of the hundreds of herring boats which would be affected. This clause he admitted would do a great deal for them, but not all that was desirable. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not give way on this point.

concurred entirely with what had been said by his hon. friend. If a boat was discovered shooting whales within this limit, and if the boat belonged to a licensed company, it might be pleaded in defence that it was not intended to land the whale in Scotland. It might be pleaded that it was the intention to land it in Norway. If that plea could be successfully advanced, then, of course, the provisions in the clause would be entirely nugatory.

said he thought that in the case figured by the hon. Gentleman the boat so acting would be guilty of an offence.

Amendment negatived.

Clauses 3 and 4 were agreed to.

Clause 5:—

moved to leave out Subsection (2). His reason for making the proposal was that unlicensed people should not be put in a better position than those who had been at the trouble and expense of taking out licences. The Sub-section said:—

Nothing in this Act contained shall make it unlawful for any person to pursue any of the whaling industries commonly followed in Arctic or Antarctic waters, or to engage in the manufacture of oil or other products from whales captured in the exercise of any such industry.
If it was desirable to regulate or limit whale fishing in Scottish waters, he could not see, looking at the matter from the Scottish point of view pure and simple, why privileges should be given to foreigners, which were denied to our own people.

said the subsection was desirable to make it quite certain that whalers equipped for long voyages were not interfered with under the provisions of this Bill. It was not quite correct to say that the Bill proposed to give to foreigners what was denied to our own people.

said that the right lion. Gentleman declared that he did not propose to confer greater privileges on foreigners than on Scottish people; that all he had stated was that this Bill imposed licences on Scottish people to establish factories. He would remind the right hon. Gentleman that it was not lawful for a person to pursue, kill, or shoot whales within Scottish waters, but it was lawful for foreigners—he meant persons who were not Scotsmen—to pursue, kill or shoot whales within Scottish waters. That was the distinction which he drew and which would be maintained if the right hon. Gentleman persisted in keeping in this section of the Bill. However, he wished to withdraw his Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6:—

asked whether it would be an offence under Clause 6 for the directors and managers of a company engaged in the whale fishing industry to take out more than one licence among them?

said that an important question had been raised on a former Clause, which the right hon. Gentleman said had better be delayed. If the right hon. Gentleman would look at Clause 3, Sub-section 1, he would find that no holder of a licence for the prosecution of the whale fishery should use any boat or steamer except a whaling steamer. That was to say he could not use a tow-boat to tow the whale which he had killed. Clause 6 agreed to. Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.

Clause 9:—

said he understood the Patronage Secretary had a statement to make with regard to the next Order on the Paper, Notification of Births Bill.

said he did not think it would be fair to ask the House, after such a week as they had had, to begin at eleven o'clock the consideration of another Bill, which would take two or three hours. He had agreed with the right hon. Baronet the Member for West Somerset, that the deliberations on all their Bills were to come to an end at eight o'clock to-morrow evening—that the Government should have all their Bills then. It would be extremely serious if the discuscussion on any particular Bill were protracted, or that they should have to drop any particular one of their Bills. That was the distinct and categorical understanding with the noble Lord's chief, and he was sure hon. Gentlemen opposite would carry it out.

said he was glad to see that the hon. Gentleman had at last found salvation, and on that he congratulated him. The Patronage Secretary had been driven to take pity on the frailties of human nature, and had announced that the limit had been reached, and that the House was not to be kept up that night. As to the arrangement with his right hon. friend to which the hon. Gentleman had referred, of course these things were necessarily approximate. It was known to all those engaged in making these arrangements that they were loads within elastic limits. Suppose that at eight o'clock to-morrow evening there was one question that remained to be be discussed, he was sure that the Patronage Secretary would not say that the bargain was absolute and definitely ruled all discussion of the question that remained.

thought the hon. Gentleman could not persist in taking a different view. He did not for a moment suggest that there was any desire or the slightest intention to deviate even by a hair's breadth, from that arrangement; but he was sure that if at eight o'clock there was one particular question on one particular Bill remaining to be discussed, the Patronage Secretary would riot say that the bargain to bring the proceedings to an end absolutely ruled that question out from discussion.

said he desired to say just one word in justification. He had had practically an ultimatum, or rather a threat, from an hon. Member opposite, that if the Government did not take the Notification of Births Bill to-night, they would give them three or four hours discussion on it to-morrow. Of course he knew eight o'clock was not a hard and fast line but it was in con- sequence of that veiled threat that he made the remark.

*

said he had many objections to this Bill which he had not pressed, and he had not divided the House once on the strict understanding that further business would be taken after the Bill under discussion; he had refrained from dividing the House in order to save time for considering the Notification of Births Bill. Clause 9 agreed to. Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

East India Revenue Accounts

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [6th June], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair (for Committee on East India Revenue Accounts)."

Which Amendment was—

To leave out from the word 'That,' to the end of the Question, and add the words this, House, whilst affirming the imperative necessity of maintaining peace and order in India, is of opinion that an inquiry by means of a Parliamentary Committee or Royal Commission should be instituted into the causes at the root of the dissatisfaction
—( Mr. George Hardy) —instead thereof.

Question again proposed: "That the words proposed to be left out stand part part of the Question."

said he did not want to delay the House, but he thought they were entitled to make their side of the case known. If it was too late to take a Bill of minor importance was it not also too late to take a large question like this affecting the Government Dependencies of the Crown.

said it was absolutely necessary to get these accounts either to-day or to-morrow, and he, desired to get them now in order to leave the way clear for other business in which great interest was taken by many Members. Question put, and agreed to. Main Question put, and agreed to.

East India Revenue Accounts

(In the Committee.)

Resolved, That it appears, from the. Accounts presented to Parliament, that in 1905–6 the Revenue of India amounted to £73,327,957, the Expenditure charged against Revenue to £71,236,103, and the Capital Expenditure not charged to Revenue to £9,966,393.—( Mr. Whiteley.)

Resolution to be reported.

Post Office (East India, China, And Australia Mails

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Contract, dated the 7th day of August, 1907, between the

Postmaster-General and the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company for the conveyance of the East India, China, and Australia Mails for the period from the 1st day of February, 1908 to the 31st day of January, 1915, be approved".—( Mr. Runciman).

*

said he was very sorry to intervene at so late an hour, but this was a very important matter, involving as it did the expenditure of £2,000,000. He did not take exception to the contract itself. So far as that went he thought the Post Office had made a good bargain. Still less did he take any to the persons who had obtained the contract; they were friends of his own and well qualified to hold a Government contract. In fact a Government contract could not be in worthier hands. But he desired to call attention in particular to the service of- steamships. Under the contract they gave a thirty days service from Brindisi to Shanghai. But while the Post Office were making this contract to send mails to Shanghai in thirtydays,by sending them over the Siberia Railway it was possible to get mails to Shanghai in twenty days. He asked whether it was a business-like proceeding. There was no question about the figures he had given being accurate, because these figures were given by the Postmaster-General himself about a month ago. The Government he supposed would say that the route by the 'steamer was the cheaper of the two. That might be so, but people had only to address their lettersvia Siberia, and then he shrewdly suspected the Government would not only have to pay for their carriage over the Siberian route but have to pay for the contract route as well, a route by which the letters did not go. He wished to ask whether it was considered a business like thing for a Government to tie itself to a seven years contract for a thirty days service when they had a good prospect of getting their mails delivered not only in twenty days but eighteen days, when the Siberia Railway service was further improved. The same statement as he had made with regard to Shanghai applied to Hong Kong. He would also like to remind the House that the service was practically only a fortnightly one, because the French boats were so very slow the traders would be forced to use the Siberian route during the week that the British boat was not running. So there was very good reason to doubt whether I was a wise action on the part of the Government to have made any contract whatever for the conveyance of mails to China. He desired to impress upon the House the importance of having a thoroughly good mail service to China. There was a great future there for British trade, and we ought to have the best mail service to meet the competition of the world. It was quite certain that if we did not use the Siberian route France and Germany would, to our detriment. He desired also to call attention to the Australian portion of the contract. Whilst this contract was a contract for the conveyance of mails between Brindisi and Adelaide it was provided that these boats should always start from a British Port and always call at Melbourne and Sydney. That provision was only put in for the purpose of subsidising the carrying of passengers and cargo, and he desired to ask whether it was desirable under the guise of a postal service to subsidise a steamship line for carrying passengers and cargo to Melbourne and Sydney. He called attention to the fact that there was no competing tender. He would like any hon. Gentleman who thought of trying to start a new subsidised line at any time to consider the facts he had mentioned, and consider well before they took the first step to establish contracts from which they had no possibility of departing without breaking the contract altogether.

wanted to know what accommodation was to be provided for lascars on the P. and O. boats, and whether it was intended to insert in this contract a provision ensuring that the lascars would have more accommodation and a better food scale than they had at present. His view was that this large subsidy enabled the P. and O. Company to compete with tramp steamers in the eastern trade, with the result that British seamen were thrown out of work and were unable to get employment. When a company like the P. and O. received this large subsidy, it was the duty of the Government to see that there were fair conditions for the men employed. No doubt he would be told by the hon. Gentleman that the lascars were British subjects. He did not in any way want to prevent lascars from being employed; they had just as much right to be employed as any other workmen, but their conditions ought to be fair.

said that this question of lascar seamen had been discussed frequently. So far as the provision of accommodation was concerned it had been decided by the Merchant Shipping Act of last year, and the Government saw no reason to depart from the decision then arrived at. The P. and O. Company employed lascars largely, and in making a contract with them it wan impossible that they should place the company at a disadvantage with their competitors. The Orient Line, for example, had been induced by the Australian Government to give up the employment of lascars, but in order to make up for this disadvantage the Australian Government had to pay £50,000 a year more than was paid to the P. and O. Company for the same service. The Government did not regard the employment of lascars as "sweating" either in mail vessels or in tramp vessels which carried lascars out to Australia or to the Far East. His hon. friend behind him had pointed out the great advantages of the Siberian route. He would like to make it perfectly clear that this matter had been carefully considered by the Post Office at very great length. They had entered into this contract with their eyes open. One of the greatest objections to the Siberian route was its cost. The House would be interested to know that letters, packets, and postcards, via Siberia, worked out at 18 francs per kilogramme as against 11.70 francs per kilogramme via Brindisi. The weight of mails carried last year was 5,741,000 lbs., but he could not give the hon. Member the weight of mails to Shanghai alone. It was quite clear that if we were to carry the whole of our mails, packets and newspapers by way of Siberia, we should add enormously to the cost of the carriage, and the Post Office wound make an absolute dead loss on the transaction. The Post Office had not only to consider the cost of carrying the mails, but the general interests of the taxpayer; and the Government could not for one moment be expected to put a burden on the general taxpayers of this country in order that those engaged in the China trade might obtain a special advantage. The other point to which the hon. member referred had to do with Australia, and the hon. Gentleman wished to know why they insisted on the P. and O. boats starting from Australia. They made the contract for the mails to pass through Brindisi, and there was no reason in the world why, in making the contract, they should not do all they could to secure what was of. advantage to British trade and to those who travelled, rendering it always-possible for a traveller to make the whole voyage from England. They did not pay any special subsidy for that; it came under the contract and was apart from the Postal service; and he thought they ought to be commended and not criticised for obtaining this special advantage for those who wished to send goods out to, Australia, and for those who wished to, send goods from Australia to England direct. The hon. Member was wrong in supposing that there were no competitors for this contract. There was one competitor for it, whose tender was lower than that of the P. and O. Company. It was the tender of one who gave his address as somewhere in the West, country. They inquired into hisbona fides, and they found that this unfortunate gentleman had no address, and that so far as they know he was not able to put a single vessel on the line. Ultimately it was discovered that his permanent abode was one of the institutions over which his right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board had control. The reason that there were no competitors was that the Postmaster-General drove an uncommonly hard bargain with the P. and O. Company, and obtained services far beyond those paid for by the subsidy. The P. and O. Company were not favoured in any way as to the placing of this contract. The absence of competition was simply due to, the fact that there was no other company strong enough to take the contract at the price and carry on the work. He would have been only too glad to allow others to have a chance. In order to give smaller traders a chance to tender, an attempt was made to split the contract up into sections; but no offers were made by any of the great shipping lines. The old contract might have run on until 1912, but in view of the great changes which were going on in the shipping world and the development of the Siberian railway, they thought it would be wiser to have a comparatively short contract, and they adopted seven years. That was a very short period for a contract of these dimensions, and no great line would undertake to build for the traffic unless they had a contract for at least ten years. Some of the offers they received were for periods ranging from twelve to twenty years. The period of the contract was seven years—a very short term—and before its expiration the conditions would be reconsidered. The Postmaster-General had reduced the lowest sum possible under the old contract by no less than £10,000, and had also reduced the period of transit. If the old contract had run on until 1910, the subsidy would have been reduced to £330,000, and if it had run on for the full period, the subsidy would have been £315,000. The Postmaster-General had succeeded in making a bargain in which the subsidy was fixed at £305,000, and at the same time he had reduced the period of transit to Bombay by eight hours, Shanghai by thirty-five hours

AYES.
Acland, Francis DykeCourthope, G. LoydLewis, John Herbert
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Elibank, Master ofLupton, Arnold
Baker,Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)Erskine, David C.Lyell, Charles Henry
Baring,Godfrey(Isle of Wight)Essex, R. W.Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Bg'hs)
Beauchamp, E.Everett, R. LaceyM`Crae, George
Benn,W.(T' w' r Hamlets,S.Geo.Forster, Henry WilliamMarks, G. Croydon (Launceston)
Bertram. JuliusFuller, John Michael F.Marnham, F. J.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineGibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)Micklem, Nathaniel
Bowles, G. StewartGooch, George PeabodyMontagu, E. S.
Bramsdon, T. A.Gulland, John W.Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)
Brigg, JohnGurdon,Rt Hn. Sir W. BramptonMorgan,J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Brodie, H. C.Haworth, Arthur A.Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Byles, William PollardHigham, John SharpNicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster
Carlile, E. HildredHobart, Sir RobertNuttall, Harry
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Holt, Richard DurningO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard KnightHoward, Hon. GeoffreyPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington
Cawley, Sir FrederickIllingworth, Percy H.Price, C. E.(Edinburgh,Central)
Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Jardine, Sir J.Radford, G. H.
Cheetham, John FrederickJones, William(CarnarvonshireRawlinson, johnFrederick Peel
Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Lambert, GeorgeRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Clough, WilliamLehmann, R. C.Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)Robinson, S.
Corbett, CH. (Sussex,E.Grnist'dLevy, Sir MauriceRoe, Sir Thomas

outward and twenty-four hours homeward, and Adelaide by twenty-four hours outward and twelve hours homeward. Besides this his right hon. friend had secured the insertion in the contract of a clause precluding the company from giving any undue preference in their general carrying business to the disadvantage of the British trader. With regard to the lascars, their accommodation was fixed by the Merchant Shipping Act of last session, and the Government did not feel in a position to impose conditions on the P. and O. Company which they thought would be improper for the general run of British ships.

said the Merchant Shipping Act. of last year excluded the lascars, and this contract was a means by which they might compel the P. & O. Company to give the lascars proper accommodation. Question put. The House divided:—Ayes, 93: Noes, 19. (Division List No. 457).

table type="span"
Rogers, F. E. NewmanThomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark)Wiles, Thomas
Runciman, WalterToulmin, GeorgeWinfrey, R.
Salter, Arthur ClavellWalker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire )
Seely, ColonelWalters, John TudorTELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Sherwell, Arthur JamesWaring, Walter Whiteley and Mr. J. A.
Sinclair, Rt. Hon. JohnWhite, J. D. (Dumbartonshire)Pease.
Stanley,Hn. A. Lyu1ph (Chesh.)Whitehead, Rowland
Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

NOES.

Bowerman, C. W.Harvey,W.E.(Derbyshire, N.E.Stewart, Halley (Greenock)
Clynes, J. R.Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Summerbell, T.
Cooper, G. J.Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Cremer, Sir William RandalKelley, George D.
Crooks, WilliamO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-FurnessParker, James (Halifax)Havelock Wilson and Mr.
Gill, A. H.Richards,T. F.(Wolverhampt'nSeddon.
Glover, ThomasStanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.)

Greenwich Hospital

Motion made and Question proposed, That the statement of the estimated income and expenditure of Greenwich Hospital and of Travers' Foundation for the year 1907–8 be approved." —( Mr. Lambert.)

upon this raised the question of the Greenwich Age Pensions. He complained that the Naval Vote governing this question was guillotined with other Votes, and, as far as he understood, a similar course had been taken for many years, in consequence of which this important question had not been able to be discussed in the House. He pointed out that thousands of pensioners were without the pensions to which they considered themselves entitled, and it was a deep and serious grievance amongst them, particularly in the naval ports. Inasmuch as the question of the income and expenditure of Greenwich Hospital forming the Resolution now before the House must include money the subject of these pensions, he wished to know whether he would be in order in rsising the question at the present time, though this being the end of the session, and it was then a late hour, the time was unquestionably very inconvenient. It was the first opportunity he had had of speaking about the matter in the House. If he was precluded from discussing the matter now he would be glad if the Civil Lord would give an assurance or endeavour to arrange that the Vote should not be guillotined next year, so that a proper opportunity might be given to the many Members who were interested in the question of discussing the matter.

said that was a matter which rested with the Prime Minister and the Patronage Secretary. All that he had to do was to ask the House to approve of expenditure which the Admiralty believed had been used to the best advantage. Question put, and agreed to. Resolved accordingly.

New Writ

New Writ for the County of Longford (South Longford), in the room of the honourable Edward Blake, K.C. (Chiltern Hundreds).—( Captain Donelan.)

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 26th day of July last, adjourned the House without Question put.

Adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Twelve o'clock.

Private Bill Business

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 14) Bill; Local Government Provisional Order (No. 15) Bill. Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No 2) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 10) Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 12) Bill. Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Lanarkshire County Council Order Confirmation Bill [Lords]. Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to,—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6) Bill; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 13) Bill; Caledonian Railway Order Confirmation Bill; Kilmarnock Corporation Water Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.

Merchant Shipping(Tonnage Deduction for Propelling Power) Bill, with Amendments.

Amendments to—York (Micklegate Strays) Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

Standing Orders—Private Business

,

who had given notice of his intention to move, "In Standing Order 98, line 2, to leave out from the first of,' to 'Members,' in line 3, and insert 'Eeven'" said: In view of the opposition to this proposed Amendment of the Standing Orders I do not intend to proceed with it this session, but will leave it over till next year.

said he was glad to hear the decision of the hon. Gentleman, which under the circumstances he cordially approved. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Petitions

Small Landholders (Scotland) Bill

Petition from Dunnet, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

Returns, Reports, Etc

Polling Districts (County Of Berks)

Copy presented, of Order made by the Council of the County of Berks altering certain polling districts in the Northern or Abingdon Parliamentary Division [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Local Registration Of Title (Ireland) Act, 1891

Copy presented, of Rule dated 31st July, 1907, made by the Land Judge with the approval of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, amending the Rules of 24th August, 1896 [by Act]; to lie upon the, Table.

Railway Returns

Copy presented, of Returns of the Capital, Traffic Receipts, and Working Expenditure of the Railway Companies of the United Kingdom for the year 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Colonial Statistics

Copy presented, of Statistical Tables relating to British Colonies, Possessions, and Protectorates. Part XXX., for the year 1905 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Statistical Abstract (Colonies)

Copy presented, of Statistical Abstract for the several British Colonies, Possessions, and Protectorates in each year from 1892 to 1906 (Forty-fourth Number) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Trade Reports

Copy presented, of Index to Reports of His Majesty's Diplomatic and Consular Representatives Abroad on Trade and Subjects of General Interest (with Appendix), 1906 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Colonial Import Duties, 1907

Copy presented, of Return relating to the Rates of Import Duties levied upon the principal and other articles imported into the British Colonies, Possessions, and Protectorates [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Metropolitan Water Board

Copy presented, of Annual Report of the Metropolitan Water Board and Abstract of their Accounts for the year ended 31st March, 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 328.]

Foreshores

Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 19th August, 1907, directing the application of moneys received by the Board of Trade in the year ended 31st March, 1907, in respect of the rights and interests of the Crown in the Foreshores of the United Kingdom [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Education (England And Wales) (Small Schools)

Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 20th August; Mr. Yoxall]: to lie upon the Table.

Extradition Acts, 1870 To 1906

Copies presented, of Orders in Council of 12th August, 1907, (1) for giving effect to a Treaty concluded on 25th August, 1906, between His Majesty and the President of the Republic of Panama for the Extradition of Criminals; (2) for carrying into effect an Agreement concluded on 2nd July, 1907, between the British and Swedish Governments for the mutual Extradition of fugitive Criminals [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Merchant Shipping Act 1894

Copy presented, of Order in Council of 12th August, 1907, fixing the dues to be paid to the King's Lynn Conservancy Board in respect of ships passing a floating light to be maintained by that Board in the roads of the Port, and revoking the

Name of Undertakers.Power and HeatingPrivate Lighting.Public Lighting.Total.
Units
delivered.
Price per
Unit.
Units
delivered.
Price per
Unit.
Units
delivered.
Price per
Unit.
Units
delivered.
Price per
Unit.
Local Authorities
Totals:
Local Authorities
Companies
Totals:
Companies
Totals:
Metropolitan
Police District
of London.

Order in Council of 23rd October, 1877 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Dockyard Ports Regulation Act, 1865

Copy presented, of Order in Council of 12th August, 1907, making new regulations for the Dockyard Port of Berehaven. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Naval And Marine Pay And Pensions Act, 1865

Copies presented, of three Orders in Council of 12th August, 1907, approving Memorials of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty praying sanction to (1). certain regulations whereby Officers placed on the Retired List whilst serving on the Staff of the Inspection and Experimental Departments, or in posts in the Admiralty connected with those Departments, may be entitled to increase of Retired Pay; (2) a Revision of Titles, Rates of Pay, etc., of Petty Officers and Seamen of His Majesty's Navy and the establishment of a separate class of Wireless Telegraph Operators; (3) the Payment of an allowance to Officers and Men of His Majesty's Navy and Royal Marines who act as Shorthand Writers at Naval Courts Martial [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 And 1888 (London Electricity Supply)

Return ordered, "of units delivered and average price charged by Local Authorities and Companies in the Metropolitan Police District for Power and Heating, Private Lighting, and Public Lighting, respectively, during their last completed year of account.