House Of Commons
Wednesday, 19th February, 1908.
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock.
Private Bill Business
Tyne Improvement Bill.—For conferring further powers on the Tyne Improvement Commissioners in reference to dredging. Presented, and read the first time; and ordered to be read a second time.
Madras Railway Company (Purchase) Bill [Annuities].—Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of the Revenues of India, of any Annuities
created under any Act of the present Session to provide for the vesting of the undertaking of the Madras Railway Company in the Secretary of State in Council of India, and of any costs, charges, and expenses incurred under such Act (King's Recommendation signified), To-morrow.— Mr. Sydney Buxton.
Message From The Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the transfer of training colleges in Scotland." [Transfer of Training Colleges (Scotland) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords.]
And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Clyde Navigation." [Clyde Navigation (Superannuation) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords.]
Transfer of Training Colleges (Scotland) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords],—Ordered (under Section 7 of The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) to be considered upon Friday.
Clyde Navigation (Superannuation) Order Confirmation Bill [Lords].—Ordered (under Section 7 of The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) to be considered upon Friday.
Petitions
Land Values (Scotland) Bill
Petition from Benholm, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
Licensed Premises (Exclusion Of Children)
Petitions for legislation, from Batley, Carlisle, Clapton (three), Leeds (three), New Maiden, Roundhay, Sedbergh, Stapleford, and Wirral; to lie upon the Table.
Sale Of Intoxicating Liquors On Sunday Bill
Petitions in favour, from Billy Row (two), Birmingham, Bristol, Chesterfield (two), Hull, Mansfield, Plymouth, Stock-well Green, United Effort Lodge, Wigton, and Woking; to lie upon the Table.
Returns, Reports, Etc
Census Of Production Act, 1906
Copy presented, of Rules made by the Board of Trade under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Committals (Ireland)
Copy presented, of Returns from the Clerks of the Crown and Peace of the number of persons committed for trial in 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Rivers Pollution Prevention Act And Public Health (Scotla) Act
Copy presented, of Joint Report, dated 22nd October, 1907, to the Secretary for Scotland and the Local Government Board for Scotland, on the Pollution of the River Leven (Dumbartonshire), by Mr. W. S. Curphey, Inspector under the Rivers Pollution Prevention Acts, and Dr. Dittmar, Medical Inspector to the Local Government Board for Scotland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Navy (Battle Practice)
Copy presented, of Result of Battle Practice in His Majesty's Fleet, 1907 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Paper Laid Upon The Table By The Clerk Of The House
Bridlington Piers and Harbours, Copy of Abstract of the General Annual Account for the year ending 2Gth July, 1907 [by Act].
Land Registry
Return ordered, "showing the work done in the Land Registry, in each of the years 1908 and 1907, respectively, under the various Acts hereinafter mentioned, namely:—1. Under the Land Transfer Acts, 1875 and 1897; (a) The number, value, and acreage (where known) of estates the titles of which were registered, on first registration, from the 1st day of January 1906 to the 31st day of December, 1907, showing the numbers of estates registered with absolute, qualified, and possessory title, and good leaseholds; and also the number of estates registered under The Small Holdings Act, 1892; (b) The total number of separate titles on the register on the 31st day of December 1907 (i.) by first registration, (ii.) by sub-division of estates already registered,
and (iii.) by transfer from the 1862 register; (c) The total number of separate titles which have been removed from the register on the 31st day of December, 1907. 2. Under The Land Registry Act, 1862; (a) The total number, value, and acreage (where known) of estates the titles to which were registrated on first registration; (b) The total number of separate titles on the register on the 31st day of December 1907 (i.) by first registration, and (ii.) by sub division of estates already registered; (c) The total number of separate titles which have been removed from the register on the 31st day of December 1907 otherwise than by transfer to the 1875 register. 3. Under both the Acts of 1875 and 1862; (a) The total number of separate titles on the register on the 31st day of December 1907; (b) The total number of transactions registered from the 1st day of January 1906 to the 31st day of December 1907, showing the numbers of (i.) first registration under the Acts of 1875 and 1897, (ii.) conveyances, transfers and transmissions of land, (iii) mortgages, charges, further charges, and transfers of mortgages and charges, (iv.) reconveyances of mortgages and cessation of charges, (v.) leases and surrenders of leases, (vi.) miscellaneous. 4. Under the Mortgage Debenture Acts, 1865 and 1870, and The Improvement of Land Act, 1864. A statement, so far as may be practicable, of the nature and amount of the work done under these Acts from the 1st day of January, 1906, to the 31st day of December, 1907. 5. Under The Land Charges Registration and Searches Act, 1888, and The Land Charges Act, 1900. The number of registrations, official searches and ordinary searches made from the 1st day of January, 1906, to the 31st day of December, 1907. 6. Under the Middlesex Registry Act, 1708, and The Land Registry (Middlesex Deeds) Act, 1891. The number of registrations and searches made from the 1st day of January, 1906, to the 31st day of December, 1907. And showing the amount of fees received and the amount of salaries and expenses in the Land Registry from the 1st day of April, 1906, to the 31st day of March, 1907, distinguishing for the purposes of Section 22 of The Land Transfer Act, 1897. the fees received and salaries and expenses paid under the Land Transfer Acts and the other Acts above referred
to (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 276, of Session 1906)."—( Mr. Rowlands.)
Deaths From Starvation Or Accelerated By Privation (London)
Address for "Return of the number of Deaths in the administrative county of London, in the year 1907, upon which a coroner's jury has returned a verdict of Death from Starvation, or Death accelerated by Privation; together with any observations furnished to the Local Government Board by boards of guardians with reference to cases included in the Return (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 313, of Session 1907)."—( Mr. Talbot.)
Questions And Answers Circulated With Tue Votes
Irish Ancient Monuments
To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, what ancient monuments have been notified to the Board of Works as worth preserving by the Estates Commissioners since the passing of the Purchase Act of 1903; and which of them have been vested, or are proposed to be vested, in the Board of Works or in the Irish county councils in consequence of such notification. (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) I refer to the reply to the honourable Baronet's Question of 27th May, 1907, which gives a list of 52 ancient monuments, particulars of which the Estates Commissioners had communicated to the Board of Works, in pursuance of Section 14 of The Irish Land Act, 1903. The Commissioners have since communicated to the Board of Works particulars of the following:—
- Kilmallock Abbey, county Limerick.
- Buolick Church, county Tipperary.
- Cross in Carpenterstown, county Cork.
- Lixnaw Castle, county Kerry.
- Dromineer Castle, county Tiperrary.
Of the total, the Board of Works have been able to accept the vesting of the following as being of sufficient historical, astistic, or traditional interest, namely:—
- Drumbo Round Tower, county Down.
- Augustinian Abbey, Callan, county Kilkenny.
- Ballyboggan Abbey, county Meath.
- Kilmallock Abbey, county Limerick.
The respective county councils have consented to the following being vested in them, and the vesting has been completed in the cases marked with an asterisk:—
- *Carbery Church, county Kildare.
- Ballycowan Castle, King's County.
- Srah Castle, King's County.
- Heathstown Castle, county Westmeath.
- Mahee Castle, conuty Down.
- Round Tower, county Down.
- Church, county Down.
- Mulrankin Castle, county Wexford.
- Castle, county Westmeath.
- Carrig Castle, county Tipperary.
- *Gortnaclea Castle, Queen's County.
- *Cornaveigh Castle, county Cork.
- Seahorse Monument, county Water-ford.
- *Giants Grave, county Tyrone.
- Down Macpatrick Castle, county Cork.
- Cross, county Westmeath.
Liscannor Harbour Works
To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he has seen the resolution of the Clare County Council complaining of the unfinished state of the works at Liscannor harbour, the neglect of the contractor in connection with the same, and the consequent dangerous condition of the harbour; and whether he proposes to takes any steps in reference to the matter immediately. (Answered by Mr. Birrell) The Board of Works inform me that they have received a copy of the resolution referred to in the Question, which was passed by the Clare County Council on 21st October last. The engineer to the Board of Works reported a year ago that the contract for the works had been practically completed by the contractors with the exception of the deepening of the harbour. Since that date some progress has been made with the excavation, and, as I informed the hon. Member on the 12th instant, the Board of Works are now negotiating with a view to taking over the completion of the works themselves. The Board will use their best efforts to get the works completed as soon as possible. In my Answer of the 12th instant I said that the Board were informed that the quarries are closed. The Board now ask me to say that though the quarries were closed for a short time last spring, they are glad to learn from more recent reports that the quarries are still being worked.
Irish Land Purchase
To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, how long does the Land Commission anticipate it would take it to deal with and complete the sales, to the value of some thirty-four millions of money, in respect of which agreements are already lodged, even if the funds to pay the purchase money were supplied to the Land Commission as rapidly as they could deal with the agreements; and what has been the average yearly amount of purchase money actually paid since the Act of 1903 came into force on 1st November, 1903. (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Land Commissioners do not think it possible to anticipate the future in the manner proposed in the Question, depending as it does on contingencies which to a large extent they cannot control. The amounts hitherto advanced for all purposes of land purchase other than the Labourers Acts are as follow—
For the twelve months ending—
| 31st October, 1904 | £3,659,236 |
| 31st October, 1905 | £4,691,204 |
| 31st October, 1906 | £6,013,063 |
| 31st October,1907 | £5,376,069 |
| For the period 1st November, 1907 to 13th February, 1908 | £1,199,532 |
The average amount of the advances for the four completed years is £4,922 400.
Frivolous Police Prosecutions At Belfast
To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether his attention has been drawn to a statement made in the Belfast Summons Court, on 13th February, 1908, in a case in which a countryman was summoned for not driving his cart on the proper side of the road, by Mr. F. C. Johnston, J.P., the presiding magistrate, to the effect that the number of frivolous cases brought up in the last few weeks was ridiculous, and that they knew the police had instructions from headquarters that if they did not do certain things there would be transfers; whether any instructions have been issued to the Belfast police of the nature referred to by Mr. Johnston, or, if not, what is the nature of the instructions, if any, issued to the police in Belfast with regard to securing a certain number of arrests and convictions in any given period of time; whether any policemen have been transferred for non compliance with such instructions; whether the system referred to obtains elsewhere, and, if so, where; whether frivolous cases like those referred to are included in the criminal records of the country; and whether seeing that such a system is tantamount to putting a premium on the manufacture of petty offences by the police, he will order the immediate withdrawal of any such instructions to the police as those referred to by the magistrate. (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The police authorities inform me that it is the case that Mr. Johnston, the presiding magistrate, made a statement to the effect mentioned in the Question, but that it is not the case that the Belfast police have brought frivolous prosecutions or that any instructions such as the magistrate mentioned have been issued in Belfast or elsewhere. Prosecutions for breaches of the Belfast City bye-laws have of late been more numerous than formerly. It had been the practice of the police to caution offenders in many cases, particularly those concerning breaches of the traffic regulations. Cautions have been found to be useless, and the Corporation on several occasions requested the Commissioner of Police to enforce the bye-laws more strictly. This is the only foundation for the suggestions contained in the Question. No transfer or threats of transfer have been made, nor any reference to securing a certain number of arrests and convictions in a given period of time. Prosecutions under the bye-laws are included under the head of minor offences in the usual Returns, and the results of such prosecutions are shown.
Evicted Tenants—Case Of Matthew Brady
To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether Matthew Brady, of Stonefield, Virginia Road, county Meath, has applied to the Estates Commissioners to be reinstated in his former holding; whether they have entered into negotiations with the tenant at present in occupation to give up possession; and with what result. (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have decided that Brady is a suitable person to receive a holding, and the case has been referred to an inspector with the object of providing him with a holding. The Commissioners have not had any negotiations with the present occupier of Brady's former holding.
Evicted Tenants—Case Of Edward O'brien
To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether Edward O'Brien, an evicted tenant on the estate of Mr. J. H. Nicholson, Balrath, Kells, county Meath, has applied to be reinstated in his former holding; what action has been taken; and whether, having regard to the fact that his former holding now forms part of an area of 5,000 acres given in the Returns prepared by the Commissioners as untenanted land, the Estates Commissioners will exercise the compulsory powers vested in them to restore this evicted tenant to his former holding. (Answered by Mr. Birrell.) The Estates Commissioners have inquired into the application of Edward O'Brien and have recorded his name as that of a person suitable to receive a holding. The case has been referred to an inspector with the object of providing O'Brien with a holding. The Commissioners approached Mr. Nicholson with the view of opening negotiations for the purchase of his untenanted lands, but he has declined to proceed.
Transfer Of Native Lands To British Central Africa Company
To ask the Under - Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether under the terms of the Nyasaland concession to the British Central Africa Company, it is proposed to transfer certain lands in the Chiladzulu, Ingludi, and Malabri districts, at present in the occupation of natives, to the British Central Africa Company; whether the native rights to these lands was recognised at the time that the Protectorate was declared; whether the natives themselves have recently sent in a petition that the land in question should not be alienated; and whether, having regard to the circumstances of the case, the Government will see that the land is maintained as a Native Reserve. (Answered by Mr. Churchill.) The Secretary of State has not heard of any concession from the Government to the British Central Africa Company. Apparently the districts mentioned are part of those out of which lands may eventually be granted in certain circumstances to the Shire Highlands Railway Company. No petition on the subject has at present reached the Colonial Office, but in any case Native rights or interests will be carefully safeguarded, and nothing will be finally settled without a full Report from the Governor.
Reinforcements Of British Troops In Persia
To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether it is intended to reinforce tke Indian troops now at Ahwaz, in Persian territory; whether it is intended to reduce this force; whether the original reinforcement was made with the knowledge and consent of the Persian Government; and, if not, whether there is any precedent for the use and reinforcement of a consular guard in the territory of a friendly Power without its knowledge and consent in order to protect the interests of a private trading company. (Answered by Secretary Sir Edward Grey). The first point in the hon. Member's Question was dealt with in my reply to the Question which he addressed to me on the 3rd instant. As regards the second point, the possibility of reducing the force must depend on the state of the district where it is stationed. As regards the third point, the Persian Government were informed that His Majesty's Government proposed to reinforce the Ahwaz consular guard, and the usual facilities were afforded for the passage of the reinforcements. The step was imperatively necessary for the protection of British persons and property, and was taken on the receipt of alarming reports from His Majesty's Vice-Consul as to the condition of the district, which were confirmed by the accounts sent home to their principals by the local agents of the Oil Concessions Syndicate
Avocation Of Lancashire Magistrates
To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, if he can state the profession, calling, or occupation of those who were in 1906 and 1907 appointed county magistrates, and of those who were appointed borough magistrates in Lancashire during the same period, (Answered by Sir Henry Fowler): The county magistrates appointed for Lancashire in 1906 and 1907 may be divided into—
| Those engaged in no occupation | 30 |
| Professional men | 23 |
| Newspaper proprietors | 4 |
| Farmers | 3 |
| Those engaged in commerce and trade | 87 |
| 147 |
The borough magistrates so appointed may be similarly divided into—
| Those engaged in no occupation | 26 |
| Professional men | 56 |
| Newspaper proprietors | 5 |
| Those engaged in commerce and trade | 215 |
| 302 |
Temporary Courts At Royal Courts Of Justices
To ask the First Commissioner of Works, if he will state upon what representation or requisition the temporary court in the central hall of the Royal Courts of Justice was erected; how long it was maintained; the number of days it was used as a court for the trial of causes, and by whom; and what has been the cost to the public of constructing, furnishing, and maintaining such court. (Answered by Mr. Harcourt). The temporary court in the central hall was requisitioned by the Lord Chief Justice, with the consent of the Lord Chancellor, on the 10th December, 1907, for use on the 16th idem. It was maintained for eight weeks, that is until the 10th instant. The court was used by Mr. Justice Darling for the trial of causes for one day, the 19th December, and for a half-day on the 20th December. The illness of a judge enabled Mr. Justice Darling thereafter to use one of the ordinary courts. The total cost of constructing, furnishing, and maintaining the court has been £27 10s.
Imprisonment Of Juveniles
To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, how many persons under 16 but over 14 were sentenced in 1906, either at quarter sessions or at assizes, to imprisonment for any period exceeding six months for offences, exclusive of homicide, not specified in the first column of the First Schedule to The Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1979; and how many youthful offenders over 14, detained in reformatory schools, were convicted and imprisoned in 1906, by courts of summary jurisdiction, either for escaping from the schools or for refusing to conform to the rules. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone). The Answer to the first part of the Question is three, and the second part, five.
Death From Anthrax At Lavenham
To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether any inquiry has been, or will be, made by the Home Office into the circumstances attending the death of William Howe, woolcomber, in the employ of Messrs. Roper, of Lavenham, Suffolk, who died on 1st August, 1907, of anthrax, stated to have been caused by sorting horsehair; whether horsehair imported from abroad is disinfected under the regulations; whether horsehair produced in Great Britain has also to be disinfected; whether he is aware that several cases of fatal anthrax have occurred among animals in the immediate neighbourhood since the death of William Howe; and whether he will take steps to secure by regulation or otherwise more effective disinfection of materials, whether of foreign or British origin, and prompt and complete destruction of all matter and refuse from factories or warehouses suspected to be of an infections character. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Gladstone.) Full inquiry was made at the time into circumstances of this case. The question of the risk of anthrax to workers in horsehair has been under my consideration, and regulations were made by me last December under Section 79 of the Factory Act—to come into force on 1st April next—which will require all horsehair from China, Siberia, and Russia to be disinfected before undergoing any manipulation other than opening and sorting, and special precautions to be observed in opening and sorting. These are the only kinds of horsehair the risk from which is so great as to call for special regulations. In the case of horsehair of British origin the risk is very slight; of 1,322 animals attacked by anthrax in this country in 1906, 36 only were horses, and under the Anthrax Order of 1899 the carcase of every animal affected or suspected to be affected by anthrax is required to be burned or buried. I am informed by the Board of Agriculture that an outbreak of anthrax occurred in the immediate neighbourhood of the factory in question very shortly after the death of William Howe, affecting three horses; in future, under the new regulations, all dust collected from the opening and sorting screens, where China, Siberian, or Russian hair that has not been disinfected is opened or sorted, will require to be burned.
Exports Of Worn-Out Horses
To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether his attention has been called to the reply of M. Helleputte in the Belgian Chamber of Deputies that his Department could do nothing to prevent the importation of worn-out horses shipped from England if not diseased, and that it remained for England to put an end to the trade, or at least properly to control one which causes torture to dumb creatures; whether he is aware that many of the English horses shipped to Antwerp are found to be in a terrible condition; and in view of that fact, whether he will introduce legislation to prohibit or control such traffic. (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) My right hon. friend has asked me to reply to this Question. The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries have not yet seen the statement to which the hon. Member refers. A copy of it will at once be obtained, and M. Helleputte's observations will be carefully considered. The exportation of horses from this country is controlled by an Order issued by the Board in 1898, a copy of which and of the last annual Report of Proceedings under the Diseases of Animals Acts, which contains full information on the subject, I shall be happy to send to the hon. Member.
Legislation Regarding Milk
TO ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has considered the statements in the Report of Dr. W. Collingridge, Medical Officer of Health of the City of London, as to the dangerously dirty and infectious character of samples of milk, and as to the increasing percentage of unsatisfactory samples; and whether he can and will take immediate steps, and by administrative orders or by representation to local authorities concerned, to provide some temporary check or remedy to these evils pending the passing of the legislation promised. (Answered by Mr. John Burns.) I have not at present received a copy of the Report referred to. I am, however, aware of its general purport, and I have asked for a copy of the Report itself. The Local Government Board have steadily pressed upon local authorities and especially upon rural district councils the importance of bringing about more cleanly and efficient methods in connection with the supply of milk. This they have done by correspondence, by calling for special Reports from medical officers of health in particular cases, and in many instances by causing inspection of rural districts to be made by their own medical staff, in which attention has been given to this matter. It does not appear to me that any immediate administrative action could with advantage be taken, but I trust that the effect of the Bill, which I hope to introduce, will be to secure more satisfactory control over the milk supply of the country.
Vaccination—Conscientious Objection Forms
To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether forms of declaration of conscientious objection to vaccination were supplied to all registrars in England and Wales on or before 1st September 1907; whether these forms contained instructions to the registrars that they should be handed to persons registering births taking place after the 31st day of August 1907; whether it has come to his notice that a few registrars have not handed these forms to persons registering births during the four months from 1st September 1907 to 31st December 1907; and whether he will say what action he proposes to take in the matter. (Answered by Mr. John Burns) Forms were supplied to the registrars in the month of September with a view to their being given to every informant of a birth registered on and after 1st October. The forms applied to births so registered if they occurred on or after the 1st September. I find that the Registrar-General only knows of two cases of the kind mentioned by my hon. friend, in addition to the one referred to in his previous Question. These cases were satisfactorily settled by forms being given to the informants by direction of the Registrar General. No other cases have come under my notice, and the matter does not seem to call for any action on my part.
Fancy Names For Margarine
To ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he can say whether any fancy or other descriptive name, approved of by the Board of Agriculture, is used with margarine in its sale since the passing of The Butter and Margarine Act, 1907: and, if so, what is the name so used. (Answered by Sir Edward Strachey.) The Board have approved about 1,200 fancy or descriptive names for use in connection with margarine, but they do not know how many are in actual use.
Illegal Sale Of Beer At Ipswich
To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to a case of selling beer in Ipswich without a licence in November; why the malting company, who, it is stated in evidence, sold the beer in cask to their employees, was not prosecuted on behalf of the Inland Revenue; and what steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence of such illegal sale. (Answered by Mr. Asquith.) My hon. friend presumably refers to a case in which certain employees of the Ipswich Malting Company were prosecuted by the police for selling beer without licence. The Board of Inland Revenue had no evidence of sale by the company to their employees sufficient to justify the institution of proceedings against the company. They warned them, however, that such sales were illegal, and would entail proceedings for a penalty. I have no doubt that the steps taken by the Board are sufficient, in conjunction with the police proceedings, to prevent the occurrence of such malpractices in future. I may, however, point out that the initiation of proceedings does not necessarily rest with a public authority, it being open to any member of the public who has evidence of such unlicensed trading to prosecute the offender himself, under Section 3 of the Licensing Act, 1872.
Compensation For Damage To Horses Of Territorial Yeomanry
To ask the Secretary of State for War if, in view of an order issued to County Associations that any insurance of horses of the Territorial Force is to be made by the County Associations out of the £5 allotted per horse, officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the Territorial cavalry will be precluded from receiving from Government compensation for loss or damage to horses injured during permanent duty now granted to the Imperial Yeomanry. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) No compensation will be paid by the Government in respect of loss or damage to horses used by the Territorial Yeomanry. The grant of £5 for 15 days made to the County Associations (as against?£5 for 16 days hitherto paid) will enable the Association to take any steps (such as insurance) necessary to provide against damage or loss to hired horses. In the case of officers or men riding their own horses it is provided that the £5 shall be paid over to the officer or man on the same terms as those on which the Association receives it.
Retired Pay Of Quartermasters And Riding-Masters
To ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the difference in the amount of retired pay attainable by the two classes of ranker officers; whether he is aware that a brevet major receives retired pay at the rate of £300 a year on reaching the age of forty-eight years, and a district officer of the Royal Artillery and an officer of the coast battalion of the Royal Engineers £292 a year on reaching the age of fifty-five years, whereas a quartermaster or riding-master only receives £200 a year on reaching fifty-five years of age; and whether he can see his way to adjust these discrepancies by levelling up the retired pay of quartermasters and riding-masters to that of one or other of the more favoured classes of officers. (Answered by Mr. Secretary Haldane.) As it has recently been explained to the House, it has not been found practicable to take any steps towards increasing the retired pay of quartermasters. This decision also applies to riding-masters. The case of the quartermasters and riding-masters, as compared with that of the ordinary combatant substantive or brevet-major, was fully dealt with in the reply to a Question put by the Member for the Stowmarket Division of Suffolk on Monday last. As regards the district officers of Royal Artillery and coast battalion officers of Royal Engineers, it must be pointed out that they retire at the age of fifty-five on £292 if major, and on £210 if captain; that the promotion of such officers is by selection to fill vacancies; and that the technical nature of their work renders their duties more important than those of the quartermasters or riding-masters, who obtain their promotion automatically, the step hot being accompanied by any real increase in their duties or responsibilities.
Facilities For Ecclesiastical Disorders Bill
To ask the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the feeling existing in the country as to lawless practices in the Church of England, the Government will give facilities for the further discussion of the Ecclesiastical Disorders Bill. (Answered by Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.) I am afraid that this course is not possible.
Questions In The House
The Navy Estimates
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty when the Navy Estimates may be expected to be circulated to the Members of the House.
The Estimates will be in the hands of Members on Monday the 24th.
The Coldstream Guards
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War why the 3rd Battalion Coldstream Guards has not yet been relieved by another infantry regiment and brought home and disbanded; and how much longer is this promised relief to the British taxpayer to be delayed.
It has not yet been found practicable to withdraw this battalion from the British Army of occupation in Egypt. At the present moment therefore I am not in a position to give my hon. friend any definite reply to the latter part of his Question.
Was not an undertaking given by the Secrerary of State that this battalion should be disbanded as a measure of relief to the overburdened British taxpayer?
I have no doubt that my right hon. friend will adhere to any promise he has given.
Well, he has not given effect to it yet.
Army Attestation
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War who will be the members of the advisory committee of the War Office to whom the new form of attestation for those enlisting in the Territorial Army will be submitted.
I am afraid I cannot at present state the names of the members as I have not yet had replies from all the persons whom I have asked to serve on the Advisory Council, but I hope I shall be able to give the names in a few days.
Volunteers Medical Examination
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War why, according to the attestation paper to be used for Volunteers now serving who join the Territorial Army, a medical examination is necessary, when the leaflet lately issued by the War Office distinctly stated that in the case of such Volunteers no medical examination would be necessary; whether any orders will be issued on the subject; and, if so, when.
Will the noble Lord kindly refer to my reply to the Question put on Monday last by my hon. friend the Member for the Woodstock Division of Oxfordshire, in which I hoped I had made it quite clear that the medical certificate in the attestation form for Volunteers now serving only applied to those who wish to leave the arm in which they are serving and join another arm. As I explained, the attestation form will, before being taken into use, be carefully considered by an Advisory Council, and, if necessary, amended forms will be issued.
The Trial Of Dinizulu
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state the circumstances under which Mr. Jellicoe has refused to continue the defence of Dinizulu; and whether obstacles were placed in Mr. Jellicoe's way in preparing his defence.
I have not yet received a Report from the Governor upon the retirement of Mr. Jellicoe from the defence of Dinizulu, but the Natal Ministers have asked the Governor to telegraph as follows: "The method of procedure adopted in Dinizulu's case is in strict accordance with law of this Colony; any allegations that may have been made against this Government as to the collection of evidence or of difficulties thrown in the way of the prisoner's obtaining witnesses for his defence are false."
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, before or in the course of his preliminary examination, Dinizulu has ever been informed who he is charged with murdering or inciting to murder, or what are the acts of treason alleged against him; and, if not, what is the law in Natal which allows vague and general charges of murder and treason to be made against a prisoner.
I cannot at present add anything to the information contained in the Governor's telegram of 7th February, which I read in reply to a Question on 10th February. The Secretary of State is still in communication with the Governor on the subject, and I hope to be able to supply further information shortly. My hon. and learned friend will recollect that Ministers have stated that the method of procedure is in strict accordance with the law of the Colony.
And although this has being going on since February, cannot the right hon. Gentleman yet state who this chief is charged with murdering?
We have asked for the information by telegraph, but have not yet got the answer.
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies by what authority or under what law of the Colony of Natal has the preliminary examination of Dinizulu been held in gaol and access been denied to the public; and whether any objection to such a course was taken by his legal adviser, and with what result.
The magisterial inquiry was held at the gaol under the authority of a Governor's Proclamation, dated 6th February, 1888. Complaint was made by Mr. Jellicoe in his letter which was recently published in the Press of what he described as a secret inquisition, but the Natal Government state that the method of procedure adopted in Dinizulu's case is in strict accordance with the law of the Colony. I think my hon. and learned friend may rest assured that if there have been defects in procedure they will certainly be brought to light in the course of the defence.
Can we see the proclamation?
said that the trial would not be held in private, but it would take place before the Supreme Court. He would endeavour to see whether he could supply a copy of the proclamation.
Has the proclamation the force of law?
So I understand, but on a legal question I must ask for notice in order that I may consult the law officers.
Trinidad Immigration Ordinance
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that, in the year 1905–6, 1,768 indentured immigrants in Trinidad were committed to prison for breaches of the Immigration Ordinance; that 10s. is paid by the police court to the constable who arrests any deserting immigrant; and, if so, can he state the annual amount of such rewards, and whether such is paid by the planters or the Government.
It appears from the Trinidad Prisons Reports that the number of indentured immigrants imprisoned in 1905–6 for breaches of the Immigration Ordinance was 1,659; but the number so imprisoned in 1906–7 was 1,758. The Secretary of State s unaware of any arrangement or provision under which the payments indicated by the hon. Member could possibly be made; but if he so wishes, inquiry will be made of the local Government whether there is any foundation for the statement.
Trinidad Government Railways
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state the annual income and expenditure on the Trinidad Government Railways, as also the wages, hours, and general conditions of labour of the employees on such railways; and, if not, as to whether he will obtain such particulars.
The receipts of the Trinidad Government Railway in 1906–1907 were £92,814 and the expenditure £63,074. The latter figure does not include charges for interest on loans which amounted to about £23,000, though the actual amount for the year is not before me. I am unable to supply detailed particulars as to wages, hours, and conditions of labour on the railway, but the Governor will be asked for a report if the hon. Member will indicate more precisely the information he desires as to conditions of labour.
Maltese Legislative Council
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any reform of the composition of the Legislative Council of Malta is contemplated by His Majesty's Government; and, if so, can he say what direction the reform will take.
Representations regarding the composition of the Legislative Council of Malta are before the Secretary of State, but I regret that I am unable to make any statement on the subject at present.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that prior to 1902 the Council was made up of thirteen elected and eight appointed members, and that in that year its constitution was altered and it was composed of ten appointed and eight elected members.
I am well aware of that. I gave the subject my best personal attention when I had the opportunity of visiting Malta.
Martial Law In Natal
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies-whether there is any precedent for the Government of a Colony, as in the case of the Government of Natal to-day, proclaiming and persisting in maintaining martial law against the advice of the Governor of the Colony.
No, Sir, I do-not know of any precedent.
asked whether it would be within the competence of the Governor, on advice, to refuse assent to the Indemnity Bill and to give that intimation in quarters-where it would be appreciated?
said that the Indemnity Bill was first passed by the Natal Parliament, and then it was reserved to receive the assent of the Secretary of State.
The Governor will not immediately give his assent, but reserve it for the Cabinet?
According to constitutional practice an Indemnity Bill is always reserved.
Proclamation Of Martial Law
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether there have been issued from time to time by the Colonial Office regulations to Governors of Colonies prescribing the conditions under which, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, martial law might properly be proclaimed; and whether he would lay those regulations upon the Table of the House.
After the Jamaica rebellion the subject of martial law was very carefully considered, and a circular despatch was sent on 26th January, 1867, to the Governors of all Colonies. This despatch, which deals with the grounds on which martial law should be proclaimed will be found printed in the Parliamentary Paper entitled Correspondence relating to native disturbances in Natal, laid in May, 1906 (Cd. 2905). Papers relating to the administration of martial law in South Africa will be found in the Parliamentary Papers Cd. 981 of 1902 and Cd. 1423 of 1903.
said that in the case of Governor Eyre it was stated distinctly that the responsibility for proclaiming martial law lay primarily with the Governor of the Colony as the Imperial officer.
asked whether, as far as was known to the Colonial Office, there was anything relating to disorder or threatened disorder among the population of Natal which justified, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, the continued denial of civil and legal rights to the population, whether white or black.
I should not like to choose any words on the spur of the moment to answer that Question.
Baghdad Railway
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further information which may be made public regarding the progreess, or want of progress, of the Baghdad Railway project.
The first section of the Baghdad Railway, from Konia to Boulgurlu, a little beyond Eregli, was opened to traffic in October, 1904. From recent information it appears that no progress has been or is yet being made with the construction of the next section.
was understood to ask if further Papers would be issued.
I think my right hon. friend has already communicated all the information he has to the House by way of Question and Answer.
Employment In Belgim
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the omission of any reference in the last Report of His Majesty's Consul-General in Belgium as to the condition of employment, wages, and the cost of living, and the relation these bear to the trade of the country; whether he is aware that such information on Germany is supplied by His Majesy's Consul at Frankfort; and if he will issue instructions to all Consuls to supply such information in their Reports.
My right hon. friend is aware of the facts stated. For the reasons mentioned in the reply given to the hon. Member on 26th August last, he is doubtful how far general instructions to Consuls with regard to this matter are practicable; but the attention of His Majesty's Consular Officers in some of the more important industrial centres abroad will be directed to the matter.
Budget Suggestions
I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, owing to the crowds that now nightly visit places of entertainment all over the country, he will consider the desirability of taxing all entertainment tickets or taxing the capacity of the halls, theatres, and other places that are licensed for public amusement. I beg also to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the desirability of altering the law as regards a penny stamp upon all receipts and making the stamp according to the amount for which the receipt is given, say, 1d. for every £50 or part thereof.
Both the suggestions are familiar to me and I assure my hon. friend that, like all suggestions relating to taxation, they will continue to receive my careful consideration.
Having regard to the precisely similar undertaking which the right hon. Gentleman gave to me in reply to a precisely similar suggestion a week ago, can he say whether in pursuance of that undertaking he has taken any steps or proposes to take any steps, to acquaint himself with the amount of revenues derived by France, Germany, and other enlightened countries from these sources?
I hope I shall neglect no relevant source of information.
The Licensing Bill
asked when the Licensing Bill would be introduced, and whether a guillotine Resolution dealing with the whole progress of the measure would be brought forward?
I shall make statement to-morrow as to the course business next week.
Factory Inspection
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he car state the number of factories and workshop that were not visited by factory inspectors during 1907; and what number have not been visited since 1905.
During 1907, 28,286 factories and 55,952 workshops were un-visited by factory inspectors, and about 6,500 and 21,000 respectively were un-visited by the district staff either in 1906 or 1907.
Half-Timers In Belfast Mills
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state the number of boys and girls employed as half-timers in mills and factories in Belfast, their ages, wages, hours, and days of work; whether any, and if so, how many, are employed on three consecutive days of the week; and whether any, and if so, how many, are employed for part of each of the six working days in the week.
According to the latest statistics, which are those for 1904, 711 boys and 1,289 girls (2,000 in all), between the ages of twelve and fourteen years, were employed as half-timers in Belfast factories. I have no official information as to the wages of such persons, but I understand they are usually from 3s. to 4s. per week. Practically all are employed from 6.30 a.m. to 6 p.m., with two intervals for meals amounting to one and a half hours (i.e., in addition to the half hour allowed from 6 to 6.30 in the morning), on three alternate days in the week.
Taximeters
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the taximeters affixed to motor cabs plying for hire in the Metropolis register different fares for identical distances; and whether any arrangements are made for a periodical test of the accuracy of such taximeters.
Different fares will often be registered for identical distances, because the fare chargeable for taximeter cabs is based on a combination of time and distance. Arrangements have been made for the periodical testing of the accuracy of all taximeters.
Have the police instructions to take action where the taximeters are registering wrong prices?
When complaints are received they will be inquired into by the police.
Should complaints as to overcharges be made to the Commissioner or to the Home Office?
To the Commissioner. If any are sent to the Home Office I will see that they are forwarded to the police.
The Eight Hours Bill
asked whether the Mines (Eight Hours) Bill would be introduced under the ten minutes rule.
said that he was in the hands of the House. He had suggested introducing the Bill not under the ten minutes rule, because the Bill was before the House last year, and no alteration in its provisions had been made. But if it were desired that he should make a statement, he would do so.
asked whether it was proposed to submit a closure resolution in respect to the Bill?
No, Sir, it is not.
intimated that he would further communicate with the right hon. Gentleman.
Flogging In Prisons
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in prisons where convicts are sentenced by the visiting justices to be flogged, warders are employed to do the flogging at the rate of 5s. per dozen strokes; whether he has any official information showing that warders often provoke prisoners to sin in order to get the flogging fee; and whether, in the interests of humanity, he will consider the advisability of arranging that trials before visiting justices for prison offences should be open to the public.
The payment for carrying out a sentence of corporal punishment in convict prisons is 2s. 6d. to each officer irrespective of the number of strokes. I am certain there is not the slightest ground for the suggestion that prison officers provoke convicts to commit acts of violence or mutiny in order to obtain this small fee. I see no reason for departing from the present arrangement for the adjudication upon serious offences in convict prisons by a Board of independent Visitors, unconnected with the official administration, which was sanctioned after full discussion in Parliament by the Prison Act, 1898.
Is it the case that the payment of warders for that purpose is proportioned by the number of strokes, and will not the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the desirability of engaging these warders on an entirely different footing?
If a better system can be devised I will consider it. The payment is made only to the warder who takes part in the actual punishment.
But is the amount governed by the number of strokes?
No, Sir.
British Oak
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can prescribe, as far as may be, the use of home-grown oak for the construction of railway carriages and wagons in the United Kingdom, in view of its greater power of resistance in accidents and general superiority to American and other oak.
The Board of Trade are unable to prescribe the use of any particular kind of timber, and I have no reason to believe that wood of insufficient strength is used in the construction of railway carriages and wagons.
Administration Of British Railways
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what will be the reference to the conference which he has recently invited to consider details connected with the administration of British railways; whether he is aware of the urgent necessity of finding means of alleviating the grievances of farmers against railway companies; and what representation he has provided for agriculturists or for Ireland at the conference.
I do not propose to limit by any rigid terms of reference the scope of the inquiry to which my hon. friend refers, but questions affecting agricultural interests will be considered. Agriculture is represented at the conference by Mr. O. D. Johnson and a representative of the Board of Agriculture. I may remind my hon. friend that Irish railways are at present engaging the attention of a Vice-Regal Commission.
British Trade In Canada
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is able to confirm the statement made in the Report of Mr. Richard Grigg, on the condition of British Trade in Canada, that the increase in the cost of food, rent, fuel, and clothing during the ten years ending 1906 has been 44 per cent.; and whether he can state what has been the increase in wages during the same period.
As stated in Mr. Grigg's Report, the particulars referred to are based on the result of an unofficial investigation under the direction of a distinguished economist. They relate primarily to the city of Toronto. I understand from Mr. Grigg that he took steps to verify the substantial accuracy of these figures. There has apparently been a general increase in wages in Canada during the period referred to, varying for different trades. I am unable, however, to state a general average percentage of increase.
St Joseph's Roman Catholic School, Swansea
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he can state what Government grants, including those now due, have been earned by the St. Joseph's Roman Catholic School, Swansea, since the appointed day in September, 1904; and what amount has actually been expended by the local education authority out of these Government grants on St. Joseph's School.
The grants paid to the local education authority for Swansea in respect of children attending the St. Joseph's Roman Catholic School since the Appointed Day amount to £4,024 1s. 0d. Some of the grants in respect of the year ending 31st December, 1907, are still outstanding, but as the form of claim has has not yet been received the amount cannot be stated. The grants paid are not ear-marked as sums to be spent on the particular schools in respect of which they are paid and the expenditure upon each individual school is not separated in the accounts of most local authorities. I have no information, therefore, as to the sums actually expended by the local authority on St. Joseph's School.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether a single penny of this money has been actually expended?
It must have been or the school could not have been maintained all. Still I have no information as to the actual expenditure.
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether he can state what extra expense, if any, has been incurred by the Swansea Education Authority in consequence of its having taken over the management of St. Joseph's Roman Catholic School.
I am not sure what meaning the hon. Member attaches to the expression "having taken over the management of St. Joseph's Roman Catholic School," but if he refers only to the obligation of maintenance under the Act of 1902, I must refer him to my Answer to his previous Question.
Garforth Church School
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Education whether on 11th April last, the West Riding Education Committee suggested to the Board that the Garforth Church School should be confined to junior and infant children; whether on 2nd June the Board wrote stating that they could see no adequate reason for such reorganisation; whether on 20th June the Board reiterated their decision; whether on 10th July the Board reversed this decision; and, if so, what fresh material came before the notice of the Board to cause them so to reverse their decision.
The Answer to the first four Questions is in the affirmative. With regard to the fifth, consideration was not given in the earlier decision of 3rd June to the fact that the size of the premises necessitated that a certain number of children must, in any case, be excluded and that the school organisation of the district would be facilitated if the higher classes were transferred. On my attention being drawn to this aspect of the case I had no hesitation in giving the decision of 12th July.
Foot And Mouth Disease In Scotland
I beg to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, with reference to the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Scotland, he has now satisfied himself that the disease was imported in foreign hay; and, if so, whether it is proposed to take any steps to restrict such importation.
My hon. friend has asked me to answer this Question, and to say that he is unable at present to add anything to the reply which he gave to a similar Question on the 17th instant.
Having regard to the fact that the hay from Rotterdam caused this outbreak and that the disease is prevalent all over the Netherlands, will the Board prevent hay coming into this country from that source.
This Question is receiving very careful consideration, but no decision has yet been arrived at. The inquiry is being made.
What inquiries are necessary? We know the hay caused the outbreak and you can prevent its importation.
It must be obvious to the hon. Member that in a matter of this kind careful inquiries are absolutely necessary.
But it is a well-known fact that foot-and-mouth disease is prevalent in the Netherlands, and does not the hon. Gentleman think it is the duty of the Government to stop the importation of hay from there?
I can assure the House that the Board are giving the most careful attention to the matter, and that whatever action they deem reasonable will be taken as soon as possible.
Is this foreign hay supplied to Army horses in Scotland?
There are none
Barra
I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland if he will state when the correspondence with Lady Gordon Cathcart regarding Barra will be in the hands of Members.
asked if in addition to the correspondence already promised such additional documents as were necessary to enable hon. Members to understand the points at issue would be laid on the Table.
Proof copies have been received, and I am preparing full Papers to lay upon the Table. In reply to the hon. Member for Inverness I will consider what can be done.
Wood Quay Wall, Galway
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the Board of Works are responsible for the maintenance of the river wall at Wood Quay, in Galway City; how many lives have been lost by drowning at this place within the past ten years; and whether the Board of Works, if responsible for the maintenance, will provide a railing to prevent further accidents.
I am informed by the Board of Works that the responsibility for the maintenance of the river wall in question rests upon the Trustees incorporated under the Act 19 and 20 Vict., cap. 62, in whom the Lough Corrib Navigation is vested. The Board of Works have no information as to loss of life by drowning at this place.
Have the Board of Works any control over the trustees?
It would be better if the hon. Member would address the Question to the Secretary of the Treasury.
Limerick Evicted Tenant
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, if he can state the number of applications for reinstatement that have been received by the Estates Commissioners from evicted tenants in the county of Limerick or their representatives; whether they have sanctioned all of them, and in how many cases has reinstatement taken place; how many have been provided with equivalent holdings; and if he can say in how many of these cases has the settlement been brought about by the Estates Commissioners, and what steps they are taking to deal with the remainder.
I would refer to my Answer to similar Questions yesterday and the day before. The Estates Commissioners are preparing for presentation to Parliament a complete Return which will show all cases of restoration of evicted tenants, and in the meantime it is not proposed to prepare partial returns relating to particular districts. It is expected that the Return will be ready about the middle of next month.
Doongeelagh Estate, Killadoon
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the Estates Commissioners, in June last, received a memorial from the tenantry of the Doongeelagh Estate, situate in Killadoon, county Sligo, Boyle (No. 2) District Council, praying them to communicate with the owners with a view to purchase; have they token any steps in the matter since; and if so, with what result.
The Estates Commissioners are unable to identify the matter in question from the particulars given. If the hon. Member will furnish the name and address of the owner of the estate, the Commissioners will be prepared to answer the Question.
King Harman Estate, Longford
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners have received applications from two evicted tenants, named John Farrell and John Heslin, on the King-Harman estate, Lisnanagh, county Longford, to be restored to their holdings on this townland; and, if so, what is the cause of delay, as the farms were completely derelict during the past year; and when will they be reinstated.
The Estates Commissioners have received applications from the evicted tenants mentioned in the Question. The estate is the subject of proceedings in the Chancery Division of the High Court, and the Commissioners have not been able so far to effect the reinstatement of the evicted tenants. The matter will be further considered.
Viscount Southwell's Estate
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can say when the Estates Commissioners will give a grant to James Dore, of Curraghnadeely, Rathkeale, evicted tenant on the estate of Viscount Southwell, to enable him to stock the land and repair the dwelling house; and whether he is aware that Dore was put into possession under an agreement as eleven months grazier, and finds it difficult without a grant to work the land and pay the rent, as he has no capital.
The Estates Commissioners duly inquired into the application for reinstatement lodged by James Dore, and communicated to the owner the price which they are prepared to advance for the purchase of the holding. The owner, however, declined to accept that price, and the Commissioners are not prepared to increase it. It is understood that Dore is temporarily in possession of the holding under a grazing letting, but until an agreement for purchase has been arrived at, the Commissioners cannot consider the question of giving him a grant.
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can say whether the Estates Commissioners, before completing the sale of the estate of Lord Southwell to his tenants, will include in it the case of Mrs. Mary O'Regan, of Castlematrix, Rathkeale, who is subtenant to the middle landlords, the representatives of Julius Delmege, deceased, of about nine acres, held at the yearly rent of £25.
The Estates Commissioners have directed the special attention of their inspector to the alleged sub-tenancy referred to in the Question. When the estate is being inspected the matter will be fully inquired into, and the Commissioners will then be in a position to deal with it.
Ennistymon Fair
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the inhabitants of Ennistymon and district decided at a meeting to establish a new fair on the 22nd and 23rd of January, the landlord, who is the patentee, consenting; will he inquire why the sergeant of police told the traders of the town to take off their window posters announcing a new fair; on what authority and on whose instruction the sergeant acted; will he also say on what authority extra police were brought into Ennistymon from Lahinch, Liscannor, and Kilfenora, and posted at all the roads approaching the town on the morning of the 22nd January to prevent people entering with their cattle; whether the police took a note of the names of those who entered the town with cattle; and, if so, how many names were taken down; why were they not prosecuted as threatened by the police; and what was the expense of bringing those extra police into Ennistymon.
I am informed that certain shopkeepers of Ennistymon arranged to hold a fair on 22nd and 23rd January in addition to the established fairs, and advertised the fact accordingly. The patentee of the existing fairs and his lessee objected, and inserted notices in the local newspapers that no fair would be held on the dates named. Mr. Macnamara, the patentee, further informed the police that he would place men on the fair green and allow no cattle to be brought there on those days. The local police sergeant mentioned this fact to the shopkeepers, and as some of them were not disposed to persist in holding the fair against the patentee's wishes, the sergeant suggested that, in the interests of peace, they should remove from their windows the notices announcing the new fair. It is usual to send six policemen from neighbouring stations to Ennistymon fair to assist in preserving the peace. This number was brought in by the police authorities on 22nd January. No extra expense was incurred. The police did not interfere with people who brought in cattle. Only a few cattle were brought into the village, and no attempt was made to put them on the fair green. The police took the names of two persons who were causing an obstruction of the street with their cattle, but as they moved the cattle away on being spoken to they were not prosecuted.
Is it true that the police caused the posters to be removed from the shop windows? Had they any legal right to take that action?
I understand that they did not. They merely suggested to the shopkeepers that it would be better, but they did not enforce it in any way. In fact, they had no legal right whatever to do so.
Is it not desirable that the police should refrain from making suggestions in regard to matters as to which they have no legal right to act?
I think suggestions coming from the police in the interests of the peace are very valuable, and constitute a very desirable way of preserving the peace of Ireland.
I may say I never take a suggestion from any policeman.
Mr Beamish's Gortrae Estate
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the general nature of the communications which have passed between Mr. H. G. A. Beamish and the Estates Commissioners for the purchase of the estate of the former at Gortrae, county Cork; is he aware that the agents for this estate, Messrs. Hussey and Townsend, wrote at one time offering to leave the settlement of the dispute with the tenants to the arbitration of the Estates Commissioners; were the lands inspected by Mr. Gerald McElligott, one of their inspectors, in May last; can he disclose the nature of the Report made by that gentleman, and whether there is any immediate hope of a sale to the tenants; and whether any lands have been evicted on this estate, and the present position of the evicted tenants.
The Estates Commissioners presume that this Question is intended to refer to the property of Mr. H. G. A. Beamish at Gortrae. This property has been offered for sale to the Commissioners, who have had it inspected and have made a formal offer for purchase. The question of price is now the subject of negotiation between them and the owner. The Commissioners cannot make any arrangements for the re-sale of the lands until the purchase has been agreed upon. It would be contrary to the Commissioners' practice to state details of the negotiations, or the purport of their inspector's report in such cases. There are two evicted holdings on the estate and the cases of evicted tenants will be dealt with if the Commissioners should acquire the property. The Commissioners have no knowledge of any dispute between the landlord and tenants in this case, or of any communications such as are alleged to have been made by the agents.
Revolver Firing On Licensed Premise
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that Mr. Frank Persse, J.P., fired several revolver shots on licensed premises in the town of Loughrea, about 12 o'clock noon, in December last, smashing into pieces the public clock on the premises; whether this is the same Mr. Persse who, at petty sessions lately held in Loughrea, was summoned by a tenant, John Healy, for violently assaulting him in the rent office; was he fined on the occasion; and do the Government propose to take steps to prevent this gentleman from carrying firearms.
The matter referred to in the Question was not reported to the local police. They have, however, been informed that at about 3 p.m. on some date between 30th November and 5th December, Mr. Frank Persse, J.P., was drinking with another man in Mrs. Larkin's public house at Loughrea, and the subject of good shooting came under discussion. By way of demonstrating his good marksmanship, Mr. Persse is alleged to have fired one revolver shot at a clock which hung in the bar. The shot missed the clock, but hit the wall, knocking some mortar off it. It is stated that very few people were in the shop at the time, and Mrs. Larkin, the publican, can only say that she hoard a shot fired. The Government have no power to prevent Mr. Persse from carrying firearms. Mr. Persse is the same person who was recently fined 10s. for assaulting John Healy in the rent office.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether this Mr. Frank Persse, who has been convicted of assault, and who fired the shot in the public-house, is still a magistrate, and whether he is a brother of the Mr. Persse who is at present entertaining drawing-room companies in London with tales about alleged violence committed by Irish people?
Mr. Persse is a magistrate. I believe he is some relation of the other gentleman, but I am not aware of the exact relationship.
Will the right hon. Gentleman ascertain the exact relationship of Mr. Persse to the gentleman who addressed a great mass meeting in the Duchess of St. Alban's drawing-room?
[No Answer was returned.]
Lord Gough And His Tenantry
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he can state how far the Estates Commissioners were successful in negotiating terms of purchase between Lord Gough, owner of the property in the Gort and Kilbecanty districts, county Galway, and the tenants; whether Mr. Frank Persse, J.P., agent of the property, while negotiations were pending, passed through the district of Kilbecanty on the evening of the 22nd January last, and fired several rifle shots, to the fear and terror of the people; and, if so, is it the intention of the authorities to prosecute in this matter.
In reply to the first part of the Question, I can only repeat my right hon. friend's reply to a similar Question put by the hon. Member on 9th May last, namely, "The Estates Commissioners have had several interviews with Lord Gough and the tenants' representative, and as a result the landlord agreed to sell the tenanted holdings at such prices as the Commissioners should consider reasonable, and also to sell such untenanted lands as the Commissioners should think necessary at the Commissioners' price. Lord Gough, however, made it a condition that the sporting right's should be reserved to him as he intended to reside at Lough Cutra, and upon the tenants demurring to this he offered to agree that if the tenants' crops should be damaged by game, he would pay such compensation as the Land Commission might consider proper. Lord Gough's offer appeared to the Commissioners to be reasonable, but the tenants refused to accept it, and the negotiations, therefore, came to an end. The Commissioners do not see that they can take any further action in the matter." As regards the remainder of the Question, Mr. Frank Persse was summoned by the police for discharging firearms on or near the public road, and the case was adjourned from the 6th instant until tomorrow, when it will be heard.
Will the Government bring the conduct of this gentleman under the notice of the Lord Chancellor?
I should like to know the result of the proceedings to-morrow first.
But the right hon. Gentleman knows well the result of the proceedings at the police court when he was fined 10s.
Lord Gough's Untenanted Lands
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Estates Commissioners has been directed to the action of Mr. Frank Persse, J.P., Gort, in recently planting a number of young trees on untenanted lands belonging to Lord Gough; whether these lands were offered some months ago to the Commissioners by Lord Gough to distribute amongst the congested tenants on his estate in the district; and having regard to the disturbed state of the district and the provocative conduct of the agent, do the Commissioners propose to make any representation to Lord Gough in reference to the matter.
The Estates Commissioners have no knowledge of the planting referred to in the Question, but my right hon. friend has been informed by Lord Gough that the trees which he has planted are on that portion of his home property which the Commissioners decided should be retained by him, and that he has not planted any portion of the untenanted lands which the Commissioners proposed should be sold to his tenants. The remainder of the Question is dealt with in my Answer to the last Question.
Forthill Burial Ground, Galway
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether the medical officer of health in Galway, at the instance of the Local Government Board, made a report with reference to the condition of the Forthill burial ground, Galway, and as to whether further burials should be prohibited therein; what did that report recommend and what steps, if any, have been taken to carry out the said recommendations.
Yes, Sir; and the medical officer of health reported that in his opinion there was not sufficient space for opening new graves. The Urban District Council, however, informed the Local Government Board that no new graves have been opened in this graveyard for some years past and that interments are limited to the case of persons whose grave spaces and vaults have been reserved owing to their having possessed rights of interment therein. In these circumstances, the Local Government Board have taken no further action in the matter.
Waterford Guardians And Their Engineer
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that, at a meeting of the Waterford Board of Guardians held on 13th December last, the chairman proposed that, in consequence of Mr. Scully, who had been employed for many years as consulting engineer to the Board, having given evidence as to the amount of the damage done to Lord Ashtown's house at Glenaheiry by the bomb explosion, they should dispense with his services and employ another engineer; whether this course was agreed to by the Board with two dissentients; and what steps the Local Government Board took or intend to take in the matter.
The Local Government Board are informed by the Clerk of the Waterford Union that in the discussion on 13th of November the Chairman may have suggested that Mr. Scully's services should be dispensed with, but the only motion on the subject put to the Board of Guardians was that Mr. Scully should be asked to send in his account for the amount then duo to him, which motion was passed by eight votes to two. The Clerk adds that Mr. Scully is still in the guardians' service. The Local Government Board have taken no action in the matter, which appears to be one within the discretion of the guardians.
Is it not the fact that Mr. Scully is in the employment of the guardians only in respect of work which was current at the time of the proceedings, and that he has not been put on any new work?
I really do not know. The answer of the clerk is that Mr. Scully is still in the service of the guardians.
Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to find out whether the facts as to employment are not as I have stated.
The hon. Member had better put his Question down.
Has the right hon. Gentleman read the letter from Mr. Scully in The Times to-day in which he entirely corroborates the statement that he has been discharged?
No, Sir.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will get it and read it.
He has not the time to do it.
Belturbet Council Election
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the Local Government Board has received a complaint from James Breisland, of Belturbet, of irregularities in the election of urban councillors for that town, which took place on 15th January; whether one complaint was that the returning officer, who is also the town clerk of Belturbet, when he found that the number of votes for Mr. Breisland and another candidate were equal, gave a casting vote against Mr. Breisland; whether the proper course is for the returning officer to decide by lot between the two persons with an equal number of votes; whether the returning officer permitted Robert Bradley to vote in the said election, although his name was not on the register; and what steps will the Local Government Board take in the matter.
The Local Government Board have received a complaint from Mr. Breisland to the effect stated in the first two parts of the Question. In the case of an equality of votes for candidates the prescribed course is for the returning officer to decide by lot between the candidates. The Local Government Board have no information as to Mr. Bradley's vote. The Board have no jurisdiction in the matter. An election petition would appear to be the remedy in such cases.
Maintenance Of Discharged Prisoners At Armagh
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, whether his attention has been called to the fact that Armagh Gaol, being the prison for the counties of Monaghan, Cavan, Tyrone, as well as Armagh, insane prisoners from all those counties, on expiration of their sentences, become chargeable to the county of Armagh; and whether he will take steps to amend the law which imposes hardships upon the ratepayers of county Armagh.
The fact is as stated in the first part of the Question. Under the Act, 1 and 2 Vic. cap. 27, persons who become insane while in prison are removed to the lunatic asylum of the district in which the prison is situate, and there is no power to transfer such persons on the expiration of their sentence to the asylums of the districts from which they come. It is understood that there are in all the district asylums in Ireland patients who belong primarily to other districts, and matters are therefore substantially equalised. Legislation on the subject would involve the introduction into Ireland of a law of settlement, and the Government do not at present contemplate such legislation.
Lord Southwell's Estate
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if he can say whether the Estates Commissioners have yet considered the case of James Fitzgerald, of Ballingrane, in county Limerick, tenant to the middle landlord, Michael Ruttle, of a house and a half-acre of land on the estate of Lord Southwell, at the yearly rent of £4 10s. for inclusion in the sale of the estate; and whether, having regard to the fact that James Fitzgerald is a solvent tenant and has a small farm besides, they will give him the right to purchase his house and plot for one of his sons on the same terms as the tenants.
The Estates Commissioners have directed their surveyor and inspector, when visiting the estate in question, to inquire into and report upon the alleged sub-tenancy of James Fitzgerald in the holding of Michael Ruttle, a purchasing tenant. When the report has been received the Commissioners will be in a position to rule upon the case.
Belfast Linen Industry
I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he could state the quantity and the value of the linen goods exported from Belfast for each of the ten years ending 31st December. 1898–1907, inclusive; the maximum quantity and value of the linen goods exported from Belfast in any one year; the minimum quantity and value of linen goods exported from Belfast in any one year; the average number of men women, and children employed in mills and factories connected with the linen trade in Belfast during the period 1898–1907, inclusive; the average wages earned by them, and the number of hours worked by them per day, respectively; the number of men, women, and children employed during the months of December, 1907, and January, 1908, the hours worked by them per day, and the average wages earned by them, respectively; and the total quantity and value of linen goods exported from Belfast during December, 1907, and January, 1908.
It is assumed that by goods exported the hon. Member means goods actually shipped from Belfast, including trans-channel shipments. I am informed by the Department of Agriculture that the quantity and value of linen goods so shipped from Belfast were: In 1904, 951,760 cwts., £7,138,200; in 1905, 998,500 cwts., £7,488,750; and in 1906, 1,089,880 cwts., £8,991,550. Prior to 1904 the Department did not collect such statistics, and the figures for 1907 are not yet available. For information upon the remaining points of the Question the hon. Member should address my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Trade.
Corboy Postboy's Wages
To ask the Postmaster-General if he is aware that William Dowler, a postboy carrying letters from Corboy post office to meet the post running from Ballinalee to Edge-worthstown at Moat Farrell cross roads, county Longford, Ireland, a distance of three miles, and having to make two journeys daily, waits for the mails at the cross roads without any shelter, and working seven days a week, receives only the sum of 5s. 10d. weekly; and will he order an increase in Dowler's pay.
The post office messenger re ferred to is paid the wages stated for a duty occupying 2½ hours daily. These wages are fixed at the authorised rates, and I should not be justified in increasing them as there is no case for exceptional treatment. The messenger is timed to reach the cross roads only five minutes before the mails arrive there.
Politics In The County Court
, rising to a point of order, said that he handed in at the Table on Tuesday a Question which was ruled out of order. The Question had reference to the improper conduct of County Court Judge Gye at Basingstoke, who inquired of a plaintiff whether he had voted at the last election, and said he was foolish in having voted for the present Government. The Question having been ruled out of order, he (Sir Robert Hobart) asked for the Speaker's guidance as to how the matter could be brought before the House or otherwise dealt with.
The reason why the Question was ruled out of order was because there was no Government Department responsible for County Court Judges, or any Judges. The Judicature of this country is separate from the Executive, and the proper course for the hon. Member to take, as at present advised, I should say, is to write a letter to the Lord Chancellor.
I am much obliged, Mr. Speaker, and will act upon your suggestion.
Are not English County Court Judges appointed by the Lord Chancellor? Do they not hold office "during pleasure," and are they not dismissable by him? They have no tenure like ordinary Judges in England, or like Irish County Court Judges. They are in almost the same position as magistrates.
Is the hon. Member making a speech or asking a Question?
No, Sir, I am not presuming to make a speech. I am asking a Question with the greatest deference. My position is this—
I understand the view of the hon. Member is that the Lord Chancellor can dismiss a County Court Judge for an improper action. That is why I suggested to the hon. Member for the New Forest Division that he should write in the first instance to the Lord Chancellor.
Home Work
Ordered, That the Minutes of the Evidence taken before the Select Committee on Home Work in the last Session of Parliament, be referred to the Select Committee on Home Work.— Sir Thomas Whittaker.
New Bills
Prohibition Of Medical Practice By Companies Bill
To prohibit Joint Stock Companies from acting as physicians, surgeons, or medical practitioners. Presented by Sir John Tuke; supported by Sir Philip Magnus, Mr Charles Price, Mr. Gulland, and Sir William Collins, to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 3rd March, and to be printed. [Bill 94.]
Public Health Act (1875) Amendment (Water Rights) Bill
To empower local authorities to acquire Water Rights otherwise than by agreement. Presented by Mr. Leif Jones; supported by Mr. Brace, Mr. Helme, Viscount Helmsley, by Mr. McCrae, Mr. Nicholls, Mr. Charles Roberts, Mr. Shackleton, Mr. Soares, and Mr. Luke White; to be read a second time upon Monday, 2nd March, and to be printed. [Bill 95]
Building Lands (Scotland) Bill
To deal with Building and other Lands in Scotland. Presented by Mr. Munro Ferguson; supported by Mr. Lamont; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 5th March, and to be printed. [Bill 96.]
Rights Of Way (Scotland) Bill
To amend the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894, with regard to Eights of Way. Presented by Mr. Munro Ferguson; supported by Sir Thomas Glen-Coats; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 5th March, and to be printed. [Bill 97.]
Nurses' Registration (No 2) Bill
To regulate the qualifications of trained Nurses, and to provide for their Registration. Presented by Mr. Munro Ferguson; supported by Sir John Dickson-Poynder, Sir John Kennaway, Sir George Robertson, Mr. Rose, Mr. Rainy, Mr. Fell, Mr. Crooks, Dr. Rutherford, Mr. Jowett, and Mr. McKillop; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 5th March, and to be printed. [Bill 98.]
Agricultural Education In Elementary Schools Bill
To promote Agricultural Education and Nature Study in Public Elementary Schools. Presented by Mr. Jesse Collings; supported by Sir John Kennaway, Mr. Rothschild, Sir Francis Lowe, Mr. Hunt, Mr. Arkwright, Mr. Carlisle, and Mr. Butcher; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 99.]
Purchase Of Land (Rngland And Wales) Bill
To provide facilities for the sale of Land to occupying tenants, and to extend the system of peasant proprietary in England and Wales. Presented by Mr. Jesse Collings; supported by Sir John Kennaway, Mr. Herbert Roberts, Colonel Kenyon-Slaney, Colonel Lockwood, Mr. Courthope, Sir Berkeley Sheffield, Mr. Gardner, Earl Winterton, Mr. StaveleyHill, and Mr. Pike Pease; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 100.]
Small Holdings
said he wished to ask the leave of the House to introduce a Bill to amend the Small Holdings Act of 1892. They had heard a great deal of that Act recently, and it had been said to be limited in its operation, but his experience was that where it has been put into operation it had been an unqualified success. In the county of Worcester a colony of thirty-two peasant proprietors was formed, and they had been there for fourteen years and were in a prosperous condition. It was amusing to hear agents and others outside laying down what must be the conditions necessary for successful farming. They said that small holdings to succeed must be the best land, near a town, that the men must themselves be possessed not only of every agricultural qualification, but of almost every virtue. This colony of small holders, however, did not fulfil all those conditions. The land fifteen years ago was poor, most of it very poor, but it was now rich and productive. It was not near a town, but was sixteen miles off a large town, and the price paid was not low, for it amounted to £40 an acre, and the conditions of repayment were based on 4 per cent., in addition to which there was the usual sinking fund. Those men had for years been producing thousands of pounds worth of produce out of the land, which, before they took it in hand, did not maintain one farmer and a couple of penniless labourers. Now they were producing thousands of pounds worth of those fifty millions worth of the smaller articles of food which we got from abroad, and the money was spent at home instead of abroad. Members would be astonished to see the improvement. Each man kept a horse and cart, and sometimes two horses and two carts, and they provided employment for tradesmen, wheelwrights, shoeing-smiths and blacksmiths, all tending to the prosperity of the neighbourhood, by money raised out of mother earth instead of sending across the channel. They there found the problem of housing solved and the want of employment problem solved, without its costing a penny to the community. The county council had not lost a penny, and as far as he could examine their accounts, when the payments were finished they would be a little in pocket, so that the cost to the community was nothing in any shape or form. There was room in this country for thousands of such holdings that might be employed for the good of the State and the community, and it might be asked why were they not established. The answer was to be found in the undoubted indifference of many county councils some of the members of which, in spite of their talk about small ownerships, had no burning desire to see them created. He would ask the attention of the House to this, that the Act of 1892, required labourers to pay down 20 per cent. of the purchase money at the time of the purchase. They could not do it. They all knew that. The Worcester County Council had, however, got round that requirement in an admirable manner. In one or two cases of which he knew, they had postponed the transfer of the land until the annual instalments should be equal to 20 per cent. of the purchase money, and then they transferred the land. The object of the Bill was to remove that bar of poverty. The Bill was very simple, practically one clause, which gave county councils power to reduce that 20 per cent. to any sum they thought fit, and in cases where they had a suitable man, a man who was of good character and was a good cultivator, but who had no money, they were allowed to do away with the initial payment, and to allow the whole of the money to be repaid by annual instalments. He had just outlined the Bill. Not having been fortunate in the ballot, he could not bring it before the House, but it was so urgent and so important, in his opinion, that it justified him in occupying a few minutes of the House on the question, and therefore he would venture to bring it forward after eleven o'clock, if leave were given to introduce it. He could not see any reason why the Government should object to removing that bar of poverty from industrious, worthy men, in order that they might avail themselves of the advantages of the Act. He was aware of the Act of last year, but that did not interfere with it, for this Bill ran on parallel lines, and gave the option of becoming owners to worthy men. It was less expensive; there were no Commissioners, no anything, and it did not cost the community a penny, while the social good to the community could not be over-estimated. He knew that colony in Worcester; it was a poverty-stricken district fifteen years ago, but now, he was credibly informed, there was not, and had not been for years, an able-bodied pauper in the parish. He begged to ask leave to introduce the Bill.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend The Small Holdings Act, 1892."—( Mr. Jesse Collings.)
said he objected to the introduction of the Bill as a matter of urgency. Considering the Act of Parliament placed upon the Statute Book last year, the House might well wait and see what were the effects of that Act before entertaining any further legislation with respect to the Small Holdings question. He specially objected to this Bill because the peasant proprietory clauses of the Act of 1892, had evidently been a very great failure. That Act had been on the Statute Book for fifteen years, and during the whole of that time only one county council had put the peasant proprietory clauses into operation. There were several county councils that had put the tenantry clauses into operation, and with very great success, and there was a general feeling on that side of the House that it was far better to create tenancies and place men on the soil with fixity of tenure, so that they might have the whole of their small capital to farm with, than to invest any of it in the soil itself. Since the Act of Parliament of last year, they had pretty good evidence that the House of Commons was right in that opinion, because, of the whole of the applications that had come in from England and Wales, asking for something like 100,000 acres of land, not 1 per cent. desired to become peasant proprietors. 99 per cent. of the applicants were desirious of becoming tenants under the public authority, in order that they might have the whole of their small capital to farm with, rather than invest it in the land, and under those circumstances the right hon. Gentleman was ill-advised to move his Bill as a matter of urgency. He thought the House should wait and see the effect of the Act of last year before placing any further legislation on this subject upon the Statute Book.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Jesse Collings, Colonel Long, Mr. Hunt, Mr. Bridgeman, Mr. Lane-Fox, Mr. William Nicholson, Mr. Arthur Stanley, Mr. Ellis Davis, and Mr. Mildmay.
Small Holdings Bill
"To amend the Small Holdings Act, 1892," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 101.]
Land Values (Scotland) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
In moving the Second Reading of this Bill I shall endeavour to do so, without abating in any respect my support of the measure, in as brief terms as possible, because the progress of this Bill during the past year has in one respect been singularly fortunate. It is identical with the Bill of last year, which passed its Second Reading by a majority of 218 votes. It was before the Grand Committee for four days, and I ask, in the judgment of my hon. friends on both sides, whether the provisions of the Bill were not thoroughly thrashed out. I do not think I had ever the inclination to move that the closure should be adopted. Then when it returned to this House I confess that we had only one day—I should say a day and a night, because what happened was that we commenced about this hour of the afternoon and talked round the clock, but still during that round of the clock I think only once was the closure moved. Also I may recall to the minds of those who did us the honour of hearing that debate that there were concessions made from point to point, and even up to the small hours of the morning I think both sides were in that spirit. Accordingly the Bill is now presented to the House, not as it was originally introduced at the beginning of last session, but as it left the House. In these circumstances I need not delay the House very long with reference to the provisions of the Bill. May I indicate one or two points only? The first point is why this should be a Scottish Bill to begin with. A good deal, as the House knows, has been made of the contrast between Scottish and English procedure in reference to the land, question. There is a very ample and good answer. In the first place, it is well that it should be in Scotland for this reason, and I need have no hesitation in avowing it, that we are at least more than half a century in advance of England on the subject of valuation. In the Valuation Act of 1854 we established a mechanism by which there should be an annual valuation of all land in Scotland. This became a national statistic of great value. So valuable has it been that in addition to the columns originally proposed in the Act of 1854 advantage Has been taken of succeeding statutes to add to the columns. For instance, an addition was made under the County Voters Act of 1861, and under the Representation of the People Act there is actually entered to this day a column year by year of those persons entitled to vote under the service franchise. Accordingly we find that not only has it for valuation purposes been so long adopted in Scotland, but it has been found so elastic as to suit other purposes, and the proposal of this Bill fits in with that scheme, and what we wish to do is to take advantage of the forwardness, in point of mechanism on this head, of Scotland, and by the simple addition of a column to the existing valuation roll the House and the country from year to year will be advised as to the capital unimproved value of land, and will be able, so different is it from the English system, to note the additions to or deductions from capital value according as there is a rise or fall in the market value of land in Scotland. I think I have made my first point quite clear, with reference to the machinery to be employed. If you are beginning at the beginning you should certainly begin at a good beginning such as we have set up for fifty years in Scotland. On the principle of the Bill I am not going to detain the House, because I cited last year over and over again from the Reports of the Housing Commissioners, from the Minority Report of the Local Taxation Commission, and from document after document, all the arguments with reference to separate valuation of site and of structure, and I only say that with regard to valuation, I still am at a loss, notwithstanding all the discussions that have ensued, to know what is the objection to having at least a valuation. This Bill is valuation and nothing more. What is the objection to having that valuation? The only persons who propound an answer to that question are persons who in their first breath go into the subject of purchase and of rating after the valuation is set up. With regard to valuation, the Local Taxation Minority Report says that site and structure, which are now combined for rating purposes, differ so essentially in character that they ought to be separately valued. With regard to the feasibility of valuation, I will take leave to cite a recent utterance of Lord Balfour of Burleigh.
It is fair to say that Lord Balfour of Burleigh throughout has confined his attention on this head to urban districts. It is also fair to add, however, that when he and his colleagues come to speak of urban districts in the Report, they speak of them in a loose sense, that is to say in a sense inclusive of what is urban property, although not within the ambit of an urban area. That I think I could establish if it were necessary, and, if in the discussion it is necessary, it will be established. Lord Balfour of Burleigh also says it can be done without any great cost. Accordingly the position is that if this Bill be confined, as it absolutely is, to valuation alone, we have its feasibility in principle declared, on the very highest authority; and with reference to rating, which may come into the discussion, we still retain the view that this is the first step towards a solution, not only of the rating question, but of housing and other social questions, and also of the question of the transfer of land at capital value to public authorities. The advantage of having this valuation the Report declared to be this—"Personally," he said, "I am inclined to think it is possible, feasible, and even desirable to have a separation of the valuation between the site and the structure in urban districts."
I feel very strongly with regard to the housing problem on this head, because that Report is so clear as to this that it actually denounces the present system of rating. It says—"That it would do something towards lightening the burdens in respect of building, and thus something towards solving the difficult and urgent housing problem."
I think that was a very grave statement made on very high authority, and if I wanted a warrant for the introduction of this Bill, if it be the first step towards anything like a more equitable system of rating, it is warranted by that testimony. With reference to its being the first step I am perfectly aware of the strong feeling that necessarily is evoked and the prejudices and prepossessions which arise whenever you are within a thousand miles of touching the question of land. It is a condition of public life at present that we must face that situation, and that whenever we want to get at the truth with reference to valuation we are blocked by those prepossessions. It is poor argument to say you will not have this Bill because it will elicit the truth and because the disclosures which it will make will be made the foundation of certain other Parliamentary proceedings. The object of this Bill is to get at the facts, and to get at them impartially by authorities who are well qualified to deal with them. There is one thing I should like to say with regard to the range of the Bill. It applies to the whole of Scotland. It includes the counties. I am aware that there is a very considerable objection to that in many minds. The Leader of the Opposition last year moved an Amendment for the exclusion of counties from the range of the Bill. It was my duty to oppose that proposal and we still oppose it, and for this reason, that if once you exclude the counties from the provisions of the Bill you will destroy a large part of the value of the returns annually made as a national statistic for national purposes. Take the urgent cases of high values which are unaccounted for or do not appear in the misrepresentations, for they amount to that, of the annual value in the rats book. The grossest cases that we know are cases of suburban areas, and outside the ambit of urban communities there are very serious cases of high value of land which it is said is being held up for the purpose of being utilised afterwards. That introduces a second question. We all know in Scotland and in England what are the serious questions as between town and county. Whenever a town desires to extend its boundaries the county at once comes into the field as an antagonist, and the opposition of the county will be strengthened if there is such a difference between the rate of the county and of the town as there would be if you excluded the counties. In the case of village communities all over Scotland, not in the Highlands only but in the Lowlands, some of the grossest cases are those where people are anxious and willing to feu the land, but land cannot be got on anything like the termas at which it appears in the rate-book at present. Moreover, in Scotland a very large number of police burghs would be excluded if you excluded the counties, because all the police burghs are within the county valuation areas, and they have no machinery for separately working out the Bill. I think I have said enough, therefore, especially on that point with regard to Scotland, to show that you would destroy national statistics and do yourself the disadvantage of not including some of the most serious cases of suburbs and villages, and finally that you would at one sweep exclude the police burghs from the whole scope of the Bill. A very interesting instance came to my notice which I should like to quote. It is from the town of Largs. The town of Largs has a provost who is quite willing to immolate himself or the altar of land reform. He has four acres of agricultural land and the rental on which he is charged is a mere trifle, £4. But the ground is wanted for town purposes for improvements. Two acres of his land are within the burgh and are entered in the valuation roll as of £8 value. Consequently he is only charged on a fourth of the value—or £2, which at 1s. 2d. in the £ makes a charge of 2s. 4d. a year. If he were feuing the land he would value it at £20 an acre, and would not require to pay a single penny of rates. It was proposed, instead of making a charge of rental, to make a charge on value, and they arrived at the value of a piece of ground by taking it at twenty years purchase of the feu value. The provost went on to say—"The tendency of our present rates must be generally to discourage building, to make houses fewer, worse and dearer."
It being his own case one would have expected him to say "No," but what he says is this—"The capital value of my plot in the burgh would thus be £800, and I should be assessed on £34 per annum instead of £2, and should pay 37s. 4d. instead of 2s. 4d. Would this be a right, just, and fair mode of taxation?"
I have slipped into the question of rating, but the House will see that it is strictly relevant to this point. There were four acres, two within the burgh and two outside it. I was interested in this case and I telegraphed today to the provost asking if the two acres outside the burghs were of the same value, to which I got this reply—"What gives value to my two acres is not money I have myself put out, but their proximity to the burgh of Largs, and for the improvements created by the authorities of Largs, past and present—drainage, roads, water, lighting, and sanitary arrangements. These give value to my bit of ground. Owing to this my land should pay its share of the im- provements surrounding it, and it is quite right I think that it should be charged its fair share of taxation."
So the proposal is, I presume, still to continue for valuation purposes that artificial line cut through that man's land and to have the capital value of 1s. 2d. on half of the field put into the annual statistics for Scotland, and the other half, because it is in the county area, kept out. The thing is not feasible. The effect upon the county I wish only to state in a word. I think it is a mistake, particularly in the landed interest, to object to this proposal, because the person who will be hit will not be the bona fide agriculturist. This Bill, if it ever goes in the direction of rating, will not merely find a way for the rating of land, but it will be a scheme to exclude from rating all improvements upon land. Therefore the improving landlord, the agricultural landlord, and the improving tenant will benefit. To the extent to which the capital value of the land is rated it will give pro tanto relief to all the other taxpayers in the county. The man who will be hit will be the land speculator, who keeps land in the neighbourhood of towns and in villages; and to the extent to which he is hit the entire body of bona, fide taxpayers will be relieved. Revelations which have come to the Government have convinced me that it is necessary to have information on an annual and national scale. The Scottish Board of Agriculture, reporting the other day on another Bill, stated that in ordinary cases the value of agricultural land is twenty-five years' purchase But the Government obtained information in driblets as to how false that estimate is when land has to be transferred compulsorily. The Government paid eighty-five years' purchase in the Rosyth case. The Edinburgh Water Trust paid 136 years' purchase for a piece of laud. The War Office bought a piece of land at 240 years purchase; the Clyde Trust had to pay 435 years' purchase. We are fond of education in Scotland. We do not wish to pay too much for anything, and the only thing we do not grudge paying for is education. But we have got to the grudging stage in Old Kilpatrick, because they wanted two acres of ground for educational purposes, for an addition to a school, and for that they had to pay 600 years purchase. An instance was given me to-day in the parish of Cathcart. I have just received information of a case in East Renfrewshire where 1½ acres were required, and the purchase price was 917 years purchase. What I say is that these may be perfectly sound transactions as between buyer and seller, but if they are, the nation is entitled to know what is the value of its property on a capital basis. The only other fact I wish to mention is that we are having reports from all parts of the world with regard to this matter. The latest report comes from Queensland, where the Statute of 1902 has swept away the last shred of consideration as regards improvements as a factor in any valuation of rateable property for local government purposes. Light is coming to us day by day, and from country after country. I regret very much that we always arouse antagonism when we are intent on anything that affects the land, but I am also aware that there is another danger from the other end of the political scale, and that we should be supposed for a moment to desire to delay this social reform by anything in the nature of injustice. When you wish to take action with reference to any reform, either in the one direction or the other which I have named, it is well to know the actual capital value on which you are going to proceed. That is the scope of this bill. The preliminary inquiries have been made over and over again. We are resolved to proceed not only with courage but with caution. Should this Bill be rejected the resources of the Constitution are not exhausted. If the Lords reject a procedure in which caution is pre-eminent, they may find themselves face to face with a procedure which at once attacks the problem. The preliminaries of valuation and taxation may not be treated separately, but the whole thing may be combined in one scheme. On the whole, I view the situation rather hopefully—not on account of the language used by the noble Lord who moved the rejection of the Bill, language in regard to which I think the less said the better. Substantially, what is in this Bill was involved in the Bill discussed in 1902, when it was rejected by seventy-one votes; in 1903, when it was rejected by only thirteen; in 1904, under the next régime, when it was passed by sixty-seven votes; in 1905, when it was passed by ninety votes; and in 1906, when it was passed by 258 votes; and last year, when it was passed by 218 votes."All one field, and of the same value throughout."
Every one of these Bills referred to urban areas alone.
My point is that capital valuation without improvements is at the back of the matter, and that the scope of the Bill never affected that principle. It is, as the Lealer of the Opposition clearly saw last year, a Committee point. Therefore, the less said the bettor of any noble Lord who uses language suggesting that a Bill with such a Parliamentary history is a product of the dirty work of the Radical Party.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman, in the history of many years he has gone over, confusing the Second Reading and the passing of a Bill?
I referred to the Second Reading stage. When a person says a Bill passes through the House on its principle he means the Second Reading. My hope arises very largely from the line which has been taken by Lord Lansdowne. I admit that there was considerable force in the point as to the insufficiency of the time available for the consideration of the Bill last year, but that defect is now made good. Every scheme of housing or public improvement is hampered because we had not begun at the beginning—with the valuation of land. The enormous initial cost of land results in the erection of houses which cannot be profitably let at rents within the means of those whom it is desired to house, and I might cite Edinburgh as a case in point. In towns, therefore, the Bill will facilitate better housing and social reform, and in the counties it will not affect to his detriment the bona fide agriculturist. If it brings about the doom of the speculator, he will certainly disappear to the advantage of those wider interests so closely affecting the well-being of the community as a whole which it is surely the duty of Parliament to protect. I beg to move.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
said he rose to move the rejection of the Bill. [A LABOUR MEMBER: Come over here.] First of all, he wished to express his regret that the Government had not given a longer time for the Second Reading. He voted for the guillotine because it seemed quite reasonable that Bills which had occupied a considerable time lost session should be hurried through this session. But having obtained those powers he did not think the Government would use them to put the Bill through in half-a-day. The Lord-Advocate appeared to suggest that those people who opposed this Bill were influenced in their action by the prepossessions which attached to property. So far as he was personally concerned he was not influenced by any such considerations, for he did not own a single acre of land and had no prospect of inheriting any. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that this was merely a Bill for a valuation to provide Scotsmen with a new form of "national statistics" in order that they might have more figures to ponder over. They were to go to the expense of collecting all this information simply for the privilege of adding to their statistics. In reality the whole object of the Bill was to prepare a way for a new system of rating. If that were so why should the Government try to throw dust into their eyes by pretending that the Bill was proposing merely a new system of national statistics? The Prime Minister himself had asserted that the principle of the measure was to impose a tax upon land values for on 12th February he said—
The Lord Advocate had also alluded to the previous Bills dealing with the same subject. With regard to the last of the Bills which the right hon. Gentleman had enumerated it was referred to a Select Committee carefully composed of hon. Members in favour of the principle of taxation of land values and that Committee reported that the measure was not worth proceeding with."I turn now to the Land Values Bill. Was this a rashly presented measure containing some unheard of revolutionary proposal which required an extraordinary amount of time for its consideration? During the period of office of the late Government, when there was a large Conservative majority in the House of Commons, Bills embodying the principle contained in the measure of last session were on four separate occasions submitted, and on two occasions they received the approval of the House."
I think the hon. Member should do the Committee the justice of stating that one of their special recommendations was that before they went any further they required a Valuation Bill.
said the Committee recommended that the Bill should not be proceeded with, but that a Valuation Bill should be introduced as a prelude to a new Bill, and this measure was that prelude. The object was the transfer of local taxation from buildings and improvements to the land. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that this Bill was based upon the Report of the Committee, but what did they report? They reported—
He ventured to say that the whole of this agitation for taxing land values in Scotland arose among people who wished to tax feu duties, and he challenged the majority of Scottish Members present to go to their constituents and say they would not tax feu duties. The Report of the Select Committee for this said explicitly that "houses and other improvements would be relieved from the burden of rating." The Prime Minister said the same thing at Dunfermline, where he spoke on 22nd October, 1907—"That a new standard of rating should be substituted for the present standard and that within the category of owners ought to be included owners of feu duties when so ever created."
As the Bill was first presented, the ambitious minds of Scottish municipalities looked upon it as a means of raising a new form of revenue, but it was now presented as a Bill for relieving them of taxation which was a very different thing. The essence of the Bill according to the Select Committee and according to the Prime Minister, was to relieve houses of local rating. He wanted the House to consider what would be the effect of that relief. In the suburbs there were large houses inhabited by men who had "made their pile." Those men would be relieved of their local taxes and would be charged only on their gardens and the value of the site. The result would be that the occupiers of large houses costing often between £4,000 and £5,000 to build would not pay a single penny upon the fabric of the house but only pay on the bare value of the ground covered. Of course, that loss would have to be made up from somewhere, and it could only be made up by increasing the rates upon those residing in the centre of the town where land was valuable. Therefore, they were simply going to shift the burden of the rates from the suburbs where the well-to-do lived and place it on the shoulders of those who were struggling to make a living in the centre of the town. That was simply a shifting of the burden of taxation from the shoulders of the idle to the shoulders of the industrious. Last session the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced a differential rate for income-tax with the object of relieving of taxation those who were earning their incomes so that those who were enjoying incomes which they were not actually earning should pay a higher rate of taxation. That was wise; but here the Government were reversing that principle. Here, as regarded local taxation, they were relieving the people who had unearned incomes and putting the burden on to people who were daily engaged in the struggle to make a living. The Lord Advocate had said a good deal about the importance of the housing question. How was this Bill going to work out as regarded that question in London? They were going to put all the burden on the land. That meant that in order to get their revenue—they must get at least the same revenue as before; some hoped they would get more—they must enormously increase the amount of taxation they charged on everybody in the centre. But in London a great many working-men lived in the centre. It was quite true that they would pay no taxation on the fabric in which they dwelt, but as the same amount of revenue as before had to be got out of the Metropolitan area, if they diminished the burden in the suburbs they must of necessity increase the burden in the centre. Whether the land in the centre was occupied by wealthy bankers or by struggling artisans, the occupier, during the continuance of existing tenancies would have to pay more than before. The case of rural districts was equally striking. In the country there were already a good many complaints that the wealthy residents paid comparatively little rates and that the farmers paid too much, but the effect of the principle of this Bill if carried into operation would be to relieve the wealthy resident of all he now paid except upon his site and garden. The house would be entirely exempted. His contribution to the local revenue would practically disappear, and they would have to put a heavier burden on the fields of the farmer and on the allotment ground of the labourer. That was the policy which the present Ministry recommended to the country. The cry on which the Government were inviting their Party to go to the country was: "Down with the House of Lords which prevents us from relieving wealthy people of taxation in order to put it on the shoulders of farmers and labourers." This was one of the matters to which the Patronage Secretary should devote his attention. The right hon. Gentleman performed his duties with admirable tact so far as he was personally concerned, in keeping the humble followers of the Government in the right lobby. He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman, that he had to discharge the even more important duty of keeping the Cabinet straight, and that he should prevent the Cabinet from adopting a policy which he with his largar experience of the constituencies must know was not a fighting electoral policy. He would take another illustration. He was sorry he did not see any of the Members for Ireland present; he did not know whether they had realised how this would work out in their country. The Solicitor-General had carried the fiery cross over the channel and made many brilliant speeches in Ireland on the advantage of taxing land values. He wondered whether the hon. and learned Gentleman went down to the rural districts and told the Irish farmers that on the holdings they had recently acquired by the aid of this House they were going to pay an extra tax in order to relieve the landlords of the tax on their houses, and in order to relieve the new hotels which were springing up in Ireland of the rates they paid. He would like to point out to the House that if a land tax was ever imposed it would in the majority of cases be actually more than 20s. in the £. He thought very few people had realised that, but it was a fact, for this reason that, normally, the value of a site was a fifth, a fourth, or perhaps as much as a third of the value of the total subject, namely, the value of the fabric and the site together. Therefore, if they were going to get the same revenue the rate levied upon the land alone must be at least three times the rate previously levied upon land and houses together; so that wherever the previous rate was over 6s. 8d. the new rate would be over 20s. in the £. During the recess he had the pleasure of reading many interesting articles on this subject by the hon. Member for West Bradford, who had kindly furnished him with some correspondence which had passed between the hon. Member for Newcastle-under Lyme and the Solicitor-General for Scotland. The correspondence was published in the Clarion. A difference of opinion seemed to have arisen in the minds of the readers of that journal as to whether the editor was accurate in saying that the new rate might be higher than the present rate. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme appeared to have written to the Solicitor-General asking whether he was justified in saying that that was the hon. and learned Gentleman's view. The Solicitor-General on 16th December last, replied as follows—"A movement for relief so earnestly supported by the municipalities throughout the country is therefore arrested. If this tax remains for a further period upon your industry and on your houses…. it is with those who killed this Bill in the House of Lords that you must settle your account."
DEAR MR. WEDGWOOD,—I am duly favoured with yours of the 13th inst, enclosing print of a letter published by you in the Clarion of 2nd December. My proposal with regard to rating on the basis of land values is to take the value of the land, apart from any buildings or improvements upon it, as the basis of rating. Of course, if the value of the land alone is less than the value of the composite subject, then the rating may be higher, although the sum raised by rates may remain the same.…. You will thus see that your account of the proposal I advocate is accurate. I propose to delete buildings from the standard of rating, and to take land alone as the standard. As a necessary preliminary we must have a valuation of the land.—Yours very truly,
ALEX. URE.
He would like to read some comments on this letter made by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme and also published in the Clarion—
"There is a celebrated freehold potworks in the borough of Hanley. This factory has recently been revalued for assessment purposes at about £1,000 per annum, and the unimproved value of the land was one-third of the total value. Rates in Hanley are 10s. in the £, so these potters pay about £500 per year. The unimproved value of the land in all Hanley happens to be about one-third of the total rateable value, so that if these rates were based on the land value alone, and the same sum total had to be raised, rates would stand not at 10s. in the £, but at 30s. in the £. To ask a landlord to pay 30s. in the £ to the municipality (besides State taxes on the same land) does sound like confiscation."
May I ask the hon. Member to complete the quotation?
With pleasure. He goes on to say—
He thought the hon. Member had made a little mistake in that. The mistake was that he assumed that the same rate would be raised exactly from the same spot."Yet these potters would obviously be better off, because, while they would pay just the same of £500 a year, yet any improvements that they might make in their factory would go rate free."
I am sorry to interrupt my hon. friend. The point is that our taxation is one-third on land and two-thirds on buildings. Exactly the same proportion obtains for the whole borough of Hanley—one-third land, and two-thirds buildings, so that we are in exactly the position of of the average landlord.
said he was much obliged to the hon. Member, who was quite right on that point. [Laughter.] He could not see what the laughter was about. The hon. Member had taken a particular case which coincided with the average. His own point was that every case did not coincide with the average. There were a good many other oases in existence besides that particular case, and the general effect would be to relieve some people of local taxation and to increase the local taxation on others. In the majority of cases the people relieved would be rich suburban residents, and the owners of country mansions, and the people who would have to pay more would be the people who were working hard to earn their living, either in the central districts of our great towns or upon the land. It was very important that they should have the opinion of the hon. Member for New-castle-under-Lyme, because he thought they might regard him on this matter as the Leader of the Cabinet. Ministers followed him with some reluctance perhaps, but still they followed him. The Lord Advocate had referred to the case of Queensland. Might he ask whether the hon. and learned Gentleman had read the whole of the Report?
MR. THOMAS SHAW indicated that he had.
thought the hon. and learned Gentleman had not. If he had read the whole of it, he would not have given the account of it which he did. It was quite true that the first page of the Report suggested that the system of taxing land values in Queensland had had the effect which his friends here desired of preventing or at any rate checking speculation in land. It had had that effect in Queensland as it would have in any new colony. The reason was that land was very cheap, and therefore the amount of interest which anyone lost in holding for a rise was very small—a negligible quantity. That was stated at page 17 of the Report. It was very different when they came to an old country like England or Scotland. The interest a man lost when holding land for a rise in price was not a negligible quantity, and he had a strong motive to realise it as soon as he possibly could. Thus in an old country, laud speculation was automatically checked, whereas in a new country a special tax to check speculation might be desirable and could easily be made effective. Again, in seeking for what was called "prairie" value, it was not possible to argue from a new to an old country. The Henry Georgites wanted to go back to the unimproved or "prairie" value of the land. In order to get at that value they had to strip the land of all the improvements made through centuries of civilisation, but in a new colony they had the unimproved value naked before their eyes. There were millions of acres of unimproved land, never touched by the hand of man. This land had a market value as unimproved land, so that they had at once a standard by which they could compare unimproved and improved land. It could be said: "We will take the market value of the unimproved land as the standard of rating." But before they could do that here they had to go through a very elaborate process of separating the value of the improvements from the value of the unimproved land. If the Lord Advocate would read as far as page 14, he would see that the author of that very valuable Report pointed out another great difference between Queensland and this country. Local authorities there did hardly any of the things which local authorities did here, and therefore they required very little revenue Among the public services which were not undertaken by the local bodies in Queensland were the following: Poor relief, orphanages, education, police, criminal prosecutions and prisons, hospitals and asylums, registration of deaths. But these services accounted for the great bulk of local expenditure in this country. The Principal public services paid for locally in Queensland were main roads, bridges, sanitary inspection, and the removal of noxious weeds. That showed at once the different conditions that obtained in Queensland as compared with this country. But as was pointed out most clearly in this Report the construction of main roads and bridges was a direct benefit to the land and the land therefore, justly paid for it. In the same way in the time of Henry VIII. an Act was passed in England for paving the Strand and the landlords of the adjoining land had to pay for it. The Report further pointed out that the attempt to levy rates on the intrinsic value of the land in Brisbane for such services as the removal of garbage "was rating run mad" and that the individual benefited ought to pay for it. On page 15 there was a very interesting admission. A proposal seemed to have been made that the Brisbane General Hospital should be paid for on a land-value basis, and this proposal was warmly supported by "those likely to be unfairly benefited thereby." The author of the Report said that this was an unfair proposal, and he kept referring to it and used it as an illustration for many other criticisms. He came to a still more important admission. The writer of the Report said that while the system of rating upon unimproved land value had worked satisfactorily generally—
But that was exactly the condition that had to be dealt with here in almost every municipality in the kingdom; so that the very Report which the Lord-Advocate said supported his case for the Bill, showed that when they came to Brtish conditions they could not apply the system of rating upon unimproved land value. Again on page 20 the writer said—"It is by no means certain that the system will be found to give equal satisfaction when it may be necessary to apply it to mixed sorts of lands, such, for instance, as city and suburban land taken together."
Was that also in favour of the Bill? And again—"Manifestly there is a limit to the burden which will be accepted upon any single class of property."
There they had the author of this Report saying that as soon as conditions were introduced at all analagous to conditions in this country they would have to introduce our system. Leaving this Report to the further study of the Lord-Advocate, he wished to touch very briefly on what he might call the theoretical basis of this whole delusion. He had read many speeches on this question and nearly all of them had used the phrase that it was wrong to tax enterprise. That was one of the phrases which people went on repeating until they came to believe that they were true. But if one came to think of it, if they wanted to have revenue at all, they must tax enterprise. It was enterprise that produced wealth, and it was only from wealth that they could get revenue. Of course, if they said that they were going to tax the owners of a particular form of property and to intercept the wealth that would otherwise go to them, and confiscate it for the benefit of the public, that could be done. That was the original idea of the authors of the taxation of land values; but the Prime Minister had declared that he would not disregard existing contracts, so that this scheme fell through. All that remained was the delusion that enterprise ought to be exempt from taxation. But he would point out that this delusion had been abandoned even in the Bill itself, because railways were exempted from the operation of the Bill. Was not a railway an enterprise? Why then did the Bill propose to exempt railways from the relief that would be given to other forms of enterprise? For the simple reason that if the railways were taxed only upon the prairie value of the land occupied many rural parishes would lose 90 per cent. of their present revenue. That was too grotesquely absurd even for the authors of the present Bill. The delusion that all taxation should be placed on land largely arose from forgetting that taxes were paid by persons and not by things. The money came out of an individual's pockets, and the whole question that had to be considered was whether it was just to draw extra taxation from one individual in order to relieve another individual. That was the whole essence of the Bill, and it would never have obtained the temporary popularity that it had if once the people had realised that taxes were paid by persons. They must adhere to the canon of taxation laid down by Adam Smith that people should pay according to their ability. That was the only sound canon of taxation. [An HON. MEMBER on the LABOUR BENCHES: They do not do it now.] That was the ideal to be aimed at. But the authors of this Bill had set before them an entirely different ideal. They wanted to put the burden on the owners of a particular form of property and to exempt from taxation men who were worth ten times as much. Who were the owners of the value of the land in this country? Very large portions of it were owned by insurance companies, trade unions, friendly societies, and building societies who had invested their funds in land values and ground rents and would be the first to suffer if this Bill became law. The only plausible case for the Bill was the alleged holding up of land for the rise in value. The Lord-Advocate had given a number of illustrations where land had been bought for from 600 to 900 years purchase. That sounded very terrible. But what did it mean It meant that if a man had got a piece of land which was yielding next to nothing, somebody came along and said: "I will pay you so much for that land to use as a site for a house I or a factory." Even if this price was quite moderate it would amount to many years purchase as compared with the previous low value of the land. It was the old percentage fallacy so much favoured on tariff reform platforms. It was assumed always that when a man refused to sell his land he was necessarily holding out for an exorbitant price. That was not so. Everyone who had experience knew that the landowner went to a valuer and said: "What ought I to get for that land?" And the valuer said: "£500." He meant that that was a fair value if he could get a purchaser, but then no purchaser might appear for twenty years. He would give a particular case in Scotland. There was a town which had a belt of 600 acres of unoccupied land round it. For all practical purposes of town extension one acre was as good as another; but the town only expanded at the rate of ten acres a year. A friend of his owned 200 acres, and he told him that he might sell a single acre at £1,000, but he did not get that every year, or even once in two or three years. It was a mere chance when he would get it. Were they to argue that the whole of these 200 acres was worth £200,000?"So long as the local tax raised from land is not excessive and is expended upon services from which the land rated derives reasonable benefit … there does not appear at present much likelihood of discontent in Queensland. …. As taxes increase, however, and especially as fresh duties have to be undertaken, all the issues will be less simple; other forms of property—as was instanced in the fight over the Brisbane hospitals question—will be looked to for contribution as well as land."
He can only get the market value of the day for the land for the whole plot of 200 acres, or for 100 acres, or for a single acre.
That is rather an interesting explanation.
It is in the text of the Bill. I am afraid my hon. friend has not read the Bill.
I am familiar with the text of the Bill, but I do not think the right hon. and learned Gentleman has carried his explanation far enough. Does he mean that the valuer is to take into account the whole area, or the whole area that belongs to a particular individual, or all the area in a particular neighbourhood? Because that makes a great difference.
He is to take into account every item at present on the roll. If that item shall not yield a certain sum in excess of the market value of the day, the market value, and that alone, is to be reckoned and each item is to be taken with reference to its surroundings, and its postponed realisation, which is always an element in value.
I think the valuer in Scotland will have a somewhat difficult task.
If my hon. friend appeals to me, I can say that it is an everyday experience in Scotland. [An HON. MEMBER: No.]
I can only apologise for not having a Scottish mind. It seems to me, a mere Englishman, that if I found a plot of land had been sold for £1,000, I should be inclined to think that another plot next to it and of exactly the similar extent should be valued at the same price.
At the market value.
But if nobody knows whether there is a market for it or not? The assumption of the authors of this Bill is that there is always a market. That was the doctrine they proceeded upon. They always assumed that the public was yearning to buy the land and the wicked landowner refused to sell. If it were true, as it was undoubtedly true in a few exceptional cases that people held back land for a rise, or from sheer churlishness, then the proper remedy would be that the local authority should in such cases have the power to take the land compulsorily at a fair valuation, from the man who was misusing his powers. But why should attacks be made on all the landowners of the country because one landowner or half a dozen or even a larger number were unreasonable. It was claimed by the authors of the Bill that they would, by this measure, compel owners to sell. They said so bluntly, but why was it right to compel A to sell land for the benefit of B, both being private persons? B might be just as much a curmudgeon as A was. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had wisely repelled the export duty on coal, although the existence of that duty tended to lower the price of coal in this country. It seemed to him that the right hon. Gentleman had done so rightly; because, the State had no right to say to those engaged in any particular industry, that they must sell at a lower price than they wished. That was equally unfair whether applied to the coal trade or to dealings in land. As to the alleged holding up of land in the heighbourhood of towns, the Government itself had shown by an Act which they passed last session the impossibility of putting into effect this Bill. In the Small Holdings Act of last session there was a clause specially designed to enable small holders to obtain land in the neighbourhood of towns for the purpose of market gardens. That clause provided that the county council should have power to hire such land at an agricultural rent and to sublet it to small holders, but that the landlord should have the power of re-entering as soon as the land obtained an urban value. In the meantime who was to pay the land values Tax? Clearly not the landlord for he had been compulsorily deprived of the use of his land; clearly not the county council which only acted as an intermediary between the landlord and the small holder; and finally not the small holder who could not afford to pay an urban site values tax out of the produce of a market garden? If hon. Members looked at this Bill he thought they would find that the whole genesis of it was due to the late Mr. Henry George. The idea that the millennium could be secured by confiscating the value of land was popular twenty years ago. He remembered when Mr. Henry George's book appeared in this country, he with many other advanced Radicals, welcomed it as a new gospel. He recollected going to a meeting in the East End of London which was addressed by the late Mr. Arnold Toynbee—a man who had given his whole life to working out these social problems. Arnold Toynbee tried to demonstrate to them the futility of this new gospel of Henry George and said that it did not touch the real social sore. But they were too impatient to listen. They thought it was a new gospel and they shouted him down. But he was right; Henry Georgism did not touch the social sores from which Great Britain was suffering. It might in a new country deal with particular grievances, but in an old country it was useless. It was not access to land they wanted but access to capital. It was useless to give a man land unless they gave him the capital to work it. He appealed to his fellow Liberals on that side of the House to be careful how they voted on this question. He was not, he believed, generally regarded as an out-and-out party man, but he said quite sincerely that he did believe most firmly that the duty rested upon all of them to strengthen the Liberal Party to the utmost of their power, because he was convinced that the Liberal Party was the only political force that could save the country from the disaster of protection. He therefore appealed to his hon. friends not to link the fortunes of the Liberal Party to a system of taxation which as soon as it was understood, would be universally condemned by the common sense and the common honesty of the people of the country. He begged to move.
in seconding the Amendment said he felt he owed an apology to Scottish Members for intervening in the debate. All he could plead in extenuation was that no one recognised more than he did their ability to manage their own affairs and their own land questions, and although he had been in this House for more than seven years this was the first occasion on which he had intervened in a Scottish debate. He might say that he would not have intervened on this occasion if it had not been for certain statements which appeared in the King's Speech and also for certain statements appearing in usually well inspired Liberal newspapers. In the King's Speech they read that the English Land Valuation Bill was to be introduced during the present session, and they also saw it stated in the newspaper to which he had referred that the Land Valuation Bill was to be on the same lines as the one now before the House. If that statement was true the Government was flying a kite with this Scottish Land Values Bill. If it was successful in this House and if it passed in the House of Lords then at once an English Valuation Bill would be introduced, on the same lines as this and it was because he wanted to prevent as far as he could what in his opionion, would be a catastrophe to the Liberal Party, that he was taking the stand he was that afternoon. It seemed to him that the promoters of this Bill were far too romantic and far too unbusinesslike. "What they said was: "Give us our Valuation Bill and then we will reorganise the whole system of rating; we will deal with the housing question, abolish slums and provide good houses for all the working men." These were all very excellent ideas and he had sincere and absolute sympathy with them. But he was one of those plain people who before they gave a blank cheque to anyone, even people whom they trusted, as he trusted the present Government it, liked to know how the cheque was to be filled up and how the money was to be devoted. The promoters of this Bill did not pretend that when they got the Bill it would be the acme of their desire. They said let us value the whole of Scotland, not only the urban but the rural part "on what he thought was a somewhat fantastic basis" and then we will produce our rating Bill and tell you how we propose to deal with the matter." In other words, they asked for machinery of rather an expensive kind and did not tell the House whether it was to be used for a motor car or a perambulator. What he wanted to get at, however, was the whole of the Government scheme, and then he would be able to see how far he could go with them and how far he should refrain from going. At present the Government had not made up their mind, on a point that would be vital to thousands of electors in this country, viz the question of existing contracts. They had heard the Lord Advocate, the Prime Minister, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer each say that they did not intend to interfere with existing contracts in any way; but the Select Committee, presided over by the Solicitor-General for Scotland, at whose bidding this Bill was introduced, said that they had given the most anxious consideration to the case presented for the exemption, of existing owners of feu duties and it was impossible in their opinion to accede to the claim. Again they said, that as between the feuar after and the feuar before the measure came into force, the result of excluding existing feu contracts would be most unreasonable. Thus they had the policy advocated by the Prime Minister, the Lord Advocate and the Chancellor of the Exchequer declared impossible and unreasonable by the Select Committee. They therefore ought to have very definite information from the Government on this point. From the evidence given before the Select Committee it appeared that there were a great many burghs in Scotland which were in the same position as the city of Manchester. The city of Manchester was covered with chief rents, whilst the Scottish burghs were covered with feu rents. These rents, as a rule, were not held by large investors, but by small ones, consisting, besides individuals, of small trusts, small charitable societies, and friendly societies; and if the Government put a tax upon one small investor and not on another the former would want to know the reason why. He was not one of those who said they should never touch existing contracts. Both Parties in this House had done it especially in the case of the Agricultural Holdings Acts, but he did say that having regard to the grave considerations involved in touching them it should be first proved that it was essential and for the good of the community. They had heard a great dealfrom the Lord Advocate as to the effect of his proposals upon the building trade. Personally, he thought any proposals to rate feus would hamper the building trade. They all knew that the class of people who built working-class houses were usually men of small capital. The two things essential to a builder with small capital were cheap money and the possession of his deeds for the purpose if necessary of mortgaging them. It would be admitted by all reasonable men that if feus were rated they would no longer be gilt-edged securities. Trustees would no longer purchase them, nor would anybody else who wanted to get a fixed and certain income. The natural consequence would be that a ready sale would not be obtained for them, and landlords would want their money down instead of selling their land in feu. That would mean an enormous difficulty. Instead of buying the Und on feu and having the purchase price running at 4 per cent. interest, the builder would have to pay money down. He would no doubt be able to borrow two-thirds of the money, but then, when he began to build and required more money, he would only have a second mortgage to offer. People did not like second mortgages, and they generally meant a high rate of interest. But even if the builder struggled through, he would obtain a decreased price for the increased feu he had created, and then would have difficulty in obtaining a permanent mortgage, for mortgages would have a tendency to fall into disrepute, and the Government would admit that when site values were taxed every trustee holding a mortgage would have to have every mortgage revalued to see if they would have to be called in. Rating site values would also tend to the erection of vertical buildings instead of lateral, because every builder would naturally endeavour to make the best possible use of his site. It would also-create a difficulty with garden cities, because where a man had to pay so much more for a garden he would do with as little garden as possible. Those were some of the difficulties of the housing question, the only argument he deduced from it was that if he was asked to break existing contracts and to rate site values, he must be shown the corresponding advantages of the new system. So far he had not been shown them. If he turned to the words of the Committee on this very theme he found they said that the present system was not to find a new source of taxation, but merely to increase the number of ratepayers, and to re-allocate their burdens. He was glad to read those words, because they put an end to all the loose talk about increased revenues. No longer would people be able to say they had found a new El Dorado out of which would come the money to provide old-age pensions and build battleships. There were only two sources of revenue in burghs which were not rated up to the hilt, and they were vacant land, which was being held up, and land which was not used to its fullest capacity. So far as dealing with those questions was concerned, he was prepared to deal with them at once, but he did not think all the paraphernalia of a Valuation Bill to be followed by a Rating Bill was required. A Bill was introduced in 1903 by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh which dealt with this matter in a very simple way, and in his opinion a Bill might be brought in to deal with these two classes of property in an equally simple manner. The fact was that the problem of unearned increment was at the root of this matter, and he was in favour of taxing unearned increment wherever he could get at it. But in justice it must be remembered that unearned increment did not apply to land only. Let them take the case of two men, each of whom had £1,000. One invested his money in a farm, and another in Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway stock. Owing to good farming and perhaps an increase in the price of wool because the woollen trade was good, the farms increased in value. Owing to good times in the cotton trade the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Stock also increased in value. Mow both these investments provided work and both were for the public good, but neither of the investors did any work themselves but "imply drew his income. Let them suppose each of these men sold his investment for £1,200. On what ground of equity or morals were they to tax the man who earned his profit out of the land, and not the man who obtained his out of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway stock. Then there was the question of restrictive covenants. In his opinion the Government had not dealt with this matter in a satisfactory manner. Let the House read Subsection 2 of Clause 3. Now what kind of a man was this assessor? All they knew was that he was not a valuator, and he was not a lawyer. Yet what was the assessor to be asked to do? He was to be asked to go behind the provisions of a deed which was placed before him, and investigate the thoughts in the minds of the people who made the deed at the time it was made. He had always held that that was the most difficult question of equity jurisdiction, yet these assessors were to decide such questions as that. He was sorry for the assessor when that gentleman came to realise the duties imposed upon him in this Bill. He was to go to a site and to assume that the buildings and all the improvements on that site were taken from it, and to value the site. He could value it in three ways. He could either have regard to what had actually been erected on adjacent sites or what ought to have been erected if these sites had been used to their fullest capacity, or he could value it without having any regard whatever to the adjacent sites. The assessor was not told in the Bill the way in which he was to proceed. Then he was told nothing whatever as to what he was to do with regard to rights of light. He was told he was to take notice of servitudes, but nothing about rights of light and air. He was not told whether he was to have any regard to them or not, yet those rights were very important to property owners, and lawyers knew they were he cause of much trouble and incidentelly of much remuneration. His main objection to this Bill, however, was that it was not confined, as all previous Bills had been, to the urban districts. It was to extend over the whole of Scotland, and to apply to all districts, urban and rural. Now the Select Committee said their object was that rates might be imposed, not on the annual value of the property, but on the annual value of the site apart from everything upon it, and without regard to any improvement that might have been made. One of the first results of it would be that every shooting-lodge would be exempt, and as there were 3,000,000 of acres in Scotland devoted to shooting that was a very important point. He would give an example. There was a shooting-lodge, with which he was familiar, about five miles from Crieff built, right out on-the moors, which, with its keeper's lodge and kennels, occupied an acre of ground. The adjoining land was moorland, and let at 5s. an acre per year. If the assessor was to assume that that lodge was removed from its site the site became just bare moorland, and instead of the place being rated at £100 a year, it would be rated at 5s. He did not think the farmers, the small holders, or the working-classes would approve of that. Another question which bothered him was how these assessors, when they went round to make these valuations, were to decide about rights of way. When those rights of way were doubtful rights, they had a very serious effect indeed on the valuations of property. How also were these assessors to regard mines and minerals unworked? The assessors were not mining experts, and it would be a very difficult duty to devolve upon them. Again, if an assessor was looking at a site to decide whether it was suitable for building, he would have also to decide whether there was a proper water supply. Was he to go about with a divining rod? He personally desired information upon these points. He did not for a moment profess to say he understood the Scottish system of rating, but the House ought to have full information with regard to the question of existing contracts and the other points he had raised. The real Bill ought to be produced instead of the one before the House, which was only a prelude to the one which was to come. It was because he wanted full information upon all these points most of which were no doubt capable of being safisfaciorly explained that he seconded the Resolution proposed by his hon. friend.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words' upon this day six months."—(Mr. Harold Cox.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
said he intervened in this debate for a few moments because he had the honour of introducing in 1906 the Taxation of Land Values Bill—the second reading of which was passed by such a large majority. The House was indebted to English Members for the interest which they took in Scotland. On the previous day an Amendment was moved to the Small Holdings Bill for Scotland, by an English Member. Now an Amendment to the Bill before the House had been moved and seconded by English Members. These gentlemen were evidently under the impression that the Scottish people were not sufficiently alive to their own interests. During the speech of the Lord Advocate, his hon. friend the Member for the Ayr Burghs made an interjection to the effect that the previous Land Values Bills, to which the Lord Advocate alluded, had reference only to Urban sites. He failed to appreciate the relevancy of that interruption. One thing which particularly struck him was that the Minority Report of the Select Committee on the 1906 Bill did not recognise the principle of the Taxation of Land Values in any shape or form. In that respect they differed entirely from the Minority Report of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation in 1901. The Minority Report of the 1906 Select Committee said—
Yet Lord Balfour of Burleigh—who was one of those who signed the Minority Report of the Local Taxation Committee in 1901, stated that a separate valuation was possible, feasible, even desirable, and could be done at moderate cost. Then again, Lord Lansdowne at Glasgow, said with reference to the evidence of Dr. Murray before the Select Committee, that that evidence formed the most valuable literature that had been produced in regard to the question of land values. But Dr. Murray ran counter to the views of Lord Balfour, and stated that there was no reason why a community who gave value to the land should reap any benefit therefrom; and that the present system of valuation and taxation was in every respect fair, and should not be altered. On this question Liberals did not differ so much as the Party opposite. One of the hon. Members for Liverpool recently issued a leaflet in which he enumerated a long and marvellous list of political goods which he desired to stock—among them was the taxation of land values. Another Conservative representing a Liverpool constituency also was in favour of a similar measure. The Member for Preston seemed to assume that they in Scotland had been living in Mars for a considerable time, and did not know the conditions which existed in their own country. One of the underlying principles of the Bills on taxation of land values was that everyone who derived benefit from the land ought to contribute his fair share to local taxation. The hon. Member for Preston seemed to forget that there was a great deal of vacant land which was not allowed to go into the market, and which was either inadequately rated or not at all. The blot in the present system was that those who improved their property were penalised, while those who neglected it seemed to be encouraged to do so. In this week's Engineering bitter complaint was made in the leading article that such crushing restrictions in the way of taxation were imposed upon those who employed machinery. The same thing held good in respect to erections. Seven years ago he himself had a slight financial interest in a firm that acquired by lease two acres of land in the North of Scotland. Before this firm acquired it, the ground was entered in the Valuation Roll at £2 per acre; but the proprietors declined to lease it for less than £150 an acre per annum. He did not know of any case which was freer from complications, and which better showed the iniquity of the present system, than one in the North of Scotland. It was the case of a small town that adjoined a famous golf-course, which many Members might know. The population numbered 4,000 people—mostly in poor circumstances. The town council expended over £25,000 on improvements, in order to make this town a health resort. Six months before the improvements were completed, the Superior made it known that he would grant no more sites except at double the feu duty. He was remonstrated with, and appealed to by the town council, but in vain. He declined to alter his conditions; and in answer to a letter from the town clerk stated that he was—"If a change must be made in the existing system, the proposals of the present Bill for the separate taxation of site values are in-equitable and impracticable."
He (Mr. Sutherland) put it to the House whether in view of such a condition of things as that, some remedy was not urgently needed. The other day the President of the Board of Trade referred to the exorbitant sums which had to be paid by railway companies in the acquisition of land. A great authority told them a good many years ago that over £50,000,000 sterling, above the maximum value of the land, had been paid by railway companies. Cases were not unknown where the price was raised, because out of a garret window it would be possible to see a train pass It was high time that a law should be passed whereby the proprietor of land would pay his just and due share of local taxation to the community, instead of, as at present, transferring his burden to other shoulders. To every man who had an interest in the land and used it this Bill would bring the just fruit of his labour. He did not say that the measure would bring the millennium while they waited—but he did affirm that it would help them to solve several questions—among others, those of housing and of the unemployed—which would have to be dealt with not merely with knowledge, but with sympathy. Scotland had sent a large majority of Liberals to that House. If they omitted to do their duty in connection with this Bill—a Bill which was eminently desired by their country—he did not think they would be asked to come back."Exceedingly thankful there was a House of Lords which would extract the teeth of the Radical Government."
This is not a very interesting subject, and I thought it was impossible to make it interesting until I heard the speech of the hon. Member for Preston. If we are to judge by the speech just made no attempt is going to be made to meet the arguments of the hon. Member. The difficulty in dealing with this subject arises from the fact that it is quite impossible to ascertain what the object of the Government is in introducing this Bill. The Lord-Advocate began with the evident intention of trying to make the House believe that the object was merely to obtain information. But, though that may be a considerable part of the object, it is obvious that if it were the real object of the Government to obtain information which would enable them to consider the system of rating, the real way to obtain it would be to select two or three representative areas in Scotland. That could be done at very little expense and would have given for this purpose all the information actually available. But that is not what the Government desire. They have already admitted in Scotland that the real object is to have the whole of Scotland re-taxed. Last year the Government were asked over and over again what their object was in imposing this on Scotland; and the Solicitor-General for Scotland then said that in the Valuation Act of 1854 no valuation was given by the Government of the day. That is an argument not in favour of the hon. and learned Gentleman's point of view, because in that case there was no change in the rating. That Act only increased the rating. What is this going to cost? An estimate has been made and very good round has been goiven for it that this will cost the city of Glasgow alone at least £500,000.
What does Henry say?
I will come to that in a moment. This estimate was given by Dr. Murray, of Glasgow. Dr. Murray has given great study to this question, and I may remind hon. Members who have made many speeches, or rather one speech in many places, on this subject that there are few better judges on this question than Dr. Murray. I am not going to give the House the basis on which this estimate was made, but I will give certain figures to show what otherwise may be somewhat overlooked. Assuming, it is said, that the owner of the land is simply to give his own guess of the value and that there is no objection on the part of the assessor, that valuation will cost nothing and it will be worth nothing. But if it is to be done by these gentlemen in the same way as they would deal with land they were going to sell or to buy, it will impose a monstrous burden on the country. I say, therefore, it is quite incredible to suppose that even the Government would have imposed that burden if the object had been merely to obtain this information. Is it the object of the Government to carry out the recommondations of the Select Committee of 1906? If that is the object it is perfectly plain and intelligible. A majority of the Committee endorsed fully the views of the Solicitor-General for Scotland, and now a somewhat belated convert is the most prominent advocate in Scotland of the views of Henry George. There is no difference between the views of that Committee and Henry George. They recommended a change in the basis of value because it would enable the community to obtain part of that which belonged to them. Mr. George proposed to take the whole of it, and if it does belong to the community it is the whole you ought to take and not a part. If that is the object of the Government they ought to state it honestly, and not do what the Lord-Advocate did to-day, that is, try to get reluctant followers to take this big fence by telling them this is only a means of endeavouring to get more statistical information about Scotland. It is very germane to the question whether this Bill ought or ought not to be passed to consider what are the practical results of dealing with this question by the Government proposals. The result is a very great one, and it is one of the most remarkable achievements of the present Government. The Government have succeeded in doing two things. In the first place they have depreciated the value of a particular kind of security which was made a trustee security by Act of Parliament; they have depreciated that security to the extent of 20 per cent., apart altogether from the fall in other gilt-edged securities. I do not think that represents the whole of the depreciation. I have consulted legal friends of mine in Glasgow who are trustees and hold a good deal of this kind of security, and they all tell me that trustees would like to sell it, but they cannot sell feu duties at the present time. Therefore, the only feu duties which come into the market are those which cannot be held. Not only have the Government reduced that security obviously by some 20 per cent., but they have made it altogether unsaleable. Now, what benefit has anyone derived from that proceeding? Of course, nobody has gained, and that is an illustration of what is a universal truth, that all predatory schemes of this kind injure individual classes of the community, and it is quite impossible by such schemes to benefit any class whatever. But the Government have done more than that, for they have largely interfered with building operations in Scotland. That is a fact that must be obvious. The system which for a very long time has prevailed in Scotland is the system of feu duties, by which the owner of the land takes payment, not in cash but in perpetual burdens imposed upon the land. The result of that is that the builder does not need to be possessed of the cash necessary to purchase the land; he only needs the capital required to erect the buildings, because the owner accepts the buildings as security. Obviously under the proposals now made no landowner will sell his land on those terms, and consequently building can only take place where the builder has not only the capital to erect a building, but also the hard cash required to pay for the land. I had occasion last autumn to make a statement which I am very glad to be able to repeat here. I said that nothing more scandalous had ever happened under any Government than that the Solicitor-General for Scotland, who represents that Department of the Government which is responsible for legislation of this kind, should have gone about Scotland conducting a crusade in favour of the taxation of feu duties, and that then the Prime Minister should have informed a deputation as though he heard of it for the first time, that the Government had no intention of taxing feu duties. The Solicitor-General took exception to that statement and said that if anybody had asked the Prime Minister at any time that same question he would have given the same answer. But surely that is no answer. The Prime Minister is a Scotsman, and he knew the effect of what was being done, and he did not need to wait to be asked. His duty was to have stopped something which was doing a great deal of harm in Scotland. Someone wrote a letter to a Glasgow paper stating that the writer had written to the Prime Minister and that he had received a reply marked "private." The writer said he would like to publish the Prime Minister's letter, but no notice was token of it, and the inference clearly is that had it been published it would not have borne out the statement of the Solicitor-General. Clearly the Government were deliberately waiting on this question to see which way the cat was going to jump, and what induced the Prime Minister finally to throw over the Solicitor-General was the discovery that this class of security is held not only by ordinary capitalists, whose opposition they expected, but largely by friendly societies and others whose votes they hoped to get. It is difficult to find what is the object of the Government in promoting this Bill. The Lord-Advocate told us it was to get information. We got from the Solicitor-General last year a clear statement of the object of the Bill. He stated that its objects were, first, to make the owners of vacant land pay their share of local taxation; and, secondly, to make the owners of land which was built upon, but not utilised to the fullest extent, pay their proper share of local taxation. There is a great deal to be said in favour of both these object. If it could be shown that there is a considerable amount of land held up for the sake of getting a rise later on, the Government have a right to step in and put an end to that state of things. But even admitting that the evil does exist, that obviously could be remedied with proposals far short of altering the whole system of rating and making that system apply to the whole area of Scotland, rural as well as urban. I do not personally believe that there is any serious-evil of that kind existing. The hon. Member for Preston says that the delusion about this Bill is that we are not going to tax enterprise. I do not think that is the real delusion, but some vague thing called the unearned increment. The Solicitor-General gave an illustration last year in which he said that a certain piece of land in Edinburgh which had Been valued at something like £2,750 a year, was suddenly sold for £100,000, and buildings were put on it to the extent of £40,000, and therefore its rating value was enormously increased. What these Henry Georgites and the Solicitor-General lose sight of is the effect of compound interest on these transactions. Take for example, the £100,000 I have mentioned. When did that land become worth £100,000? It had not been worth it long, and at the most five or ten years, or else the owner was a fool not to have sold it earlier. What hon. Members-leave out in cases of that kind is the fact that the owner of that property would have been much richer if he had sold his land for a small sum and got compound interest than if he held it and got a much larger sum for it later on. Take the case of this £100,000 mentioned by the Solicitor-General. If the owner had sold it twenty-five years ago for £40,000, compound interest at 4 per cent. would have made him richer than when he sold it for £100,000. Although the evil complained of may exist to some-extent, I think the ordinary law of supply and demand would make an owner in an instance like that take a fair price for his land now instead of waiting for the chance of getting a higher price later on. The conclusion that there is not a great deal in it is based upon the experience of the city of Glasgow. There in the city area there are some 3,000 acres of unoccupied building land. If the city of Glasgow increase only at the same rate at which it has increased for the last twenty years, it will take fifty or sixty years for that 3,000 acres to be built upon. I will assume it is taken up now and that it is valued at the price which can now be obtained for it. What would be the effect? It would be that the city would get £2,500 from rates whereas the total amount of rates levied in Glasgow is something like £1,500,000. This very small proportion in my opinion does not justify a complete change in the system of rating. If that is what the Government are aiming at they ought to show that this evil does exist and prove it by evidence, and then I am sure the majority of this House would be perfectly ready to take whatever steps are necessary to put down what in that case would be an admitted evil. Instead of doing that the Government propose to alter the system of rating. The Solicitor-General gave a third reason. He said that the object of the Bill was to enable the man who had erected an expensive dwelling to pay a smaller quantity of rates and to enable the man who had a less expensive dwelling to pay a proportionately larger sum. The scheme before us I believe to be an absolutely impracticable one. And in support of that view I will quote the opinion of the Select Committee, who stated that the valuation of land is from the nature of the case purely a matter of opinion, that absolute accuracy is necessarily unattainable, and that everything depends upon the skill and impartiality of the valuer. That is pretty much an admission that an accurate valuation is unattainable. The whole system on which capital land values are going to be rated is impossible. The theory of this Bill is that somebody is going to look at a site on which there are buildings, to imagine that those buildings are taken away, and then to say off-hand: "I can tell you in two minutes what the value of that land is." But on what possible principle can you get the value of the site except on the principle of the annual return which the site value will give? There is no other method. Supposing that anybody was going to buy vacant land—I will take the simplest form—in London belonging to the London County Council. There are no buildings on it to complicate it. Is anybody going to buy that land on the principle of looking at it, and saying that it ought to be worth so much? He will buy it only on the system that he will look at it and carefully consider what kind of buildings he will put upon it, and what annual return he will get from it. That is a method of arriving at the value which is perfectly contrary to the principle of this Bill. It is perfectly true that the Solicitor-General said last year that the assessors were doing the same sort of thing every day, but he must have said that in the hope that English Members were ignorant of what actually takes place. He said that there were in Glasgow and Edinburgh a great number, probably the majority of the best class of house, which were owned by the occupier, and that, therefore, the assessor has to guess at the rental. No one knows better than the Solicitor-General that there is hardly any one of those districts either in Glasgow or Edinburgh where similar houses in similar positions are not rented. Therefore, the assessor can easily take the actual rents which are paid as the basis for the assessable value where the house belongs to the occupier. The hon. and learned Gentleman gave us another illustration—the valuing of factories and properties of such a nature. I admit that in regard to these the assessor has not the same accurate method of ascertaining the values, but in every case the assessor does take some method. He values the property generally by taking either the return of the property, or the value of the buildings on the ground. These are ascertainable facts, and when it goes to appeal the judge can judge whether these facts have justified the valuation. The Solicitor-General admitted that in these cases the valuations were to a certain extent guess work. Can anyone hold that there is any real justification for altering the whole system of rating in Scotland to bring it out of that condition, which is admitted to be bad, when it is admitted the assessors have no proper method of estimating? It comes to this, that the Solicitor-General's plea is that because the assessors do a certain amount of valuing in an unsatisfactory way without data, it is perfectly proper you should throw the whole valuation upon them to be carried out in the same way without any data to guide them. There is, in my opinion, far stronger ground against the Bill, and that is its impracticability. I maintain without any hesitation whatever that the system which would be adopted under the Bill would be the most vicious system possible to conceive. The hon. Member for Preston pointed out what the effect of the Bill would be in freeing the rich and imposing burdens upon the poor. He did not exaggerate. The words of the Solicitor-General himself in defending it last year bore out in every respect the charge made by the hon. Member. He said that the object was to enable a man who has a more valuable house to pay a smaller proportion of the rate, and the man who has a less valuable house to pay a larger proportion of it. This is, in other words, a rich man's rating Bill. It is introduced for the express purpose of saving the rich at the expense of the poor. And that is put forward by a Liberal Government. That is not a fancy picture. The hon. Member for Preston gave illustrations of it to which I believe there is no answer, and to which I should like to have the answer if the law officer has one to give. In the West End of Glasgow there are side by side large houses and small villas, and almost cottages. The land and the situation are precisely the same in each case. What is the assessor going to do in valuing these two kinds of houses lying side by side? Is he going to say that the smaller cottager might have had the big house, and that, therefore, he is to be valued at the higher rate? He must say either that, or that the larger house should be valued at the lower rate. He has to do it one way or the other, but obviously the expectation of the Solicitor-General is that this is a Bill which will enable a man with a valuable house to escape assessment. His expectation is that the small house will pay a larger sum, and that the big house will pay a smaller sum. I should like to point out what is some times forgotten, that the whole basis on which our local taxation is levied in Scotland is a continuance of the old idea that a man should pay in proportion to his means and substance. I do not say that that idea is carried out properly under the existing system, but that is the object. The idea is that a man's rent will represent more or less his total means. I do not say that that is always right. A man's rent has sometimes to depend on the size of his family, but as a general rule it may be taken as a somewhat fair indication. What is this Bill going to do? This valuation is going to reverse that and say that a man's contribution to the rates shall be in inverse proportion to his means and substance, and that if he can put up a big house he should pay proportionately less, and if only a small house proportionately more. That is the proposal of the Government. There is another point to which I should like specially to draw the attention of the House. Last night there was a discussion on the general system of local rating. There was an evil which I think was pretty generally admitted all over the House, and that was that agriculture paid too large a share of the rates because the rent represented a man's means of earning his livelihood, and he had to pay too much in proportion. Precisely the same evil exists now, in all our cities, and I think it is the greatest evil under our present rating system. The evil in this. A shopkeeper of necessity requires large premises, and he requires them in a good situation, and, therefore, he must pay for his rates a far larger proportion than he would pay if he were rated on his means and substance. What will be the effect of this Bill? Instead of remedying that, it will make it enormously worse.
THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. URE, Linlithgowshire) indicated dissent.
The hon. and learned Gentleman doubts that. I would like to hear the answer. I will give an illustration which every Scotsman will appreciate. In Glasgow, probably the most valuable part of the city for site values is Buchanan Street. It is the best street for shops, and, of course, in that position if the shopkeeper is to sell his goods he requires a great amount of space in order to expose his goods. In the place where the shop is the site value will be greatest. Next to Buchanan Street is Queen Street where the site value is not nearly so large, and in that street there have been erected immense blocks of buildings for the accommodation of merchants. In a single one of these buildings there will be, I should say, forty or fifty firms, every one of which firms makes probably a larger income than the shopkeeper. At present they pay less than they ought to pay in proportion to the shopkeeper, but they pay something in respect of the big buildings on the land. But adopt the principle of the Government and you cut off the rate revenue received from these people, and make it almost nothing, and you throw it on the shopkeeper who cannot escape. I say that the delusion at the bottom of the whole of this idea is what is called the unearned increment. Well, I do not much believe in the unearned increment. I think it is based on a delusion altogether. The assumption seems to be that increase of population in itself adds to the value of land. That is not only not true, but it can be proved to demonstration to be not true. Take the city of Glasgow. There are large parts of that city, where, owing to the change of conditions, the site value is enormously less than it was twenty-five years ago, and everybody who knows anything about the city would say that in that particular part it is going to fall and not rise. We have additional proof of it in statistics. The population in Scotland has increased, and yet the land value in the rural districts, leaving cities out of account, is less than it was forty years ago by 25 or 30 per cent. That shows that population itself does not necessarily raise value. Anyone who chooses to think of it must see that in the nature of the case it must be so. It is not the community of Glasgow which adds so much to the value of property in Glasgow. What adds to the value of property in Glasgow is the community outside. It buys the goods which Glasgow people produce. Glasgow, or any big city, as a matter of fact, really does far more to add to the land values of countries which supply it, for instance, with food, than it does to add to the value of Glasgow itself, and if you want to get at the land value, you ought to make a claim upon Russia or America. Let me illustrate this in a way which I think is sound. I happened to go the other day in a motor to the outskirts of London. I passed the end of the Hampstead tube. I do not know anything about it, but I think it is very probable that land adjoining that tube will rise in value. On what ground can you claim that the increment belongs to the community out there? If it does not belong to the community, it belongs to the owners of the Hampstead Tube. Take the city of Belfast. Again, I do not know anything about the conditions there. It seems to me inevitable that the big shipbuilding firm of Harland and Wolff must have added greatly to the value of land in Belfast. There was nothing in Belfast which made it specially suitable as a shipbuilding centre. There was neither coal nor iron in the district. The gentlemen who founded the establishment there would probably have been equally successful in any other port. If the value of land in Belfast has risen on that account, it does not belong to the community, but to the men who established the shipbuilding industry. The same thing is true of all the districts where in our own time we have seen land rise in value. The rise in value of land is due to the initiative of the men who have put down works in the particular locality. Suppose that we assume for the sake of argument—I can only assume it for the sake of argument—that the increased value of land is due to the betterment of the community, is not that true of overy other commodity as well? Is it not true that everything is due to the presence of the community? [Cries of "Hear, hear !"] That view commends itself to hon. Gentlemen below the gangway. I do not understand the view of hon. Gentlemen opposite who seem to think, because they and their friends do not own any land, that, therefore, they can apply Socialism to the land without any dinger to themselves. That is a kind of socialism with which I do not agree, and which I am sure sooner or later hon. Gentlemen opposite will regret that they have touched. But hon. Gentlemen below the gangway are not going to stop even with commodities. If I understand them aright they are going to deal with individuals. Let me take an illustration which will appeal to the hon. and learned Solicitor-General for Scotland. He lives in Herriot Row, Edinburgh. I do not know whether the hon. and learned Gentleman owns his house, but if it belongs to him he is only entitled to the prairie value of the land on which it is built. The remainder belongs to the community, because the community has made the value Now, instead of looking at the property, look at the man. Does he not owe his position to the presence of the community? Put the best lawyer in the world out on a moor and what is his value? If you are going to give him only prairie value for his property, why should you not also give prairie value for his individuality? Our friends below the gangway mean to apply that principle in one case just as they intend to apply it in another. I must curtail my remarks [OPPOSITION cries of "Go on "] but I think it is nothing less than a scandal that the Government should have limited this debate to so short a time, for there is a great deal more to be said in exposure of the defects of the Bill. In conclusion let me say that hon. Gentlemen opposite who are so strongly in favour of this delusion are all without exception—even the Lord Advocate cannot keep the fiscal question out of his speeches—opposed to a rating system for Imperial purposes. Now one of the chief arguments which these Gentlemen use on platforms in the country, and which I suppose they believe, is that economists are in favour of their view and against us. Of course, if I had the opportunity I could easily show that that is entirely a mistake. But I now ask: "Can they produce any economist of any school who is in favour of this kind of legislation?" The political economy of this Bill is not the political economy of the study or of the University; it is the political economy of the madhouse.
said that almost everyone would admit that in the past, at all events, there had been very large unearned increments in the land. [OPPOSITION cries of "No."] If hon. Gentlemen questioned his statement he could show to them that one noble duke had made £250,000 out of the London County Council improvements on Aldwych and Kingsway; and as John Stuart Mill said, that accrued to him "while he slept." No one could doubt that similar unearned increments would accrue in lands in the future; the only question was how to obtain a fair share of it for the State. Up to the present time no Government had ever propounded any scheme for taxing unearned increment or the speculative increase in land value. The question was a difficult one, and he did not envy the Lord Advocate when he came, after this Bill had passed, to frame his taxation upon it. During the last five or six years, Bill after Bill had been introduced into this House with the object of placing an arbitrary tax upon land values. There was the private Bill of the hon. Member for the Elland Division, the Bill of the Parliamentary Secretary of the Local Government Board, introduced in 1893–1894–1895, and the Scottish Bill introduced by the hon. Member for one of the divisions of Edinburgh in 1903; other Scottish Bills in 1904 and 1905, and last of all, the Bill of his hon. friend the Member for Elgin Burghs in 1906, commonly known as the Glasgow Bill. Notwithstanding what the Solicitor-General for Scotland had said, every one of those Bills recognised the principle that feu duties created in the past were outside its scope. In other words every one of those Bills recognised the principle that existing contracts were to be held sacred. In the Bill of 1906 those contracts were brushed aside, notwithstanding the declaration of the Lord Advocate that the Government intended to respect existing contracts. That Bill went before a Select Committee which deliberately set aside the ruling of the Government and brought forward a Report in which they said that existing contracts were not to be respected. He ought to put the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dulwich right on this matter. That hon. Gentleman seemed to infer that the Government had not been outspoken on this matter; that they had some ulterior object which they wished to conceal. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman was right in his application of that purpose to the Prime Minister and other Members of the Government. He was perfectly satisfied that the Lord Advocate had quite clearly and distinctly echoed the words of the former Lord Advocate in 1854, when a similar proposal was made in the same terms almost and with the same meaning as in the Bill of 1906. The Lord Advocate, then, as the Lord Advocate in 1906, declared in behalf of the Liberal Government that they did not intend to tax feu duties, that those contracts must be observed. He did not think, therefore, it was just to suggest that the Prime Minister had any ulterior view. Notwithstanding what had taken place in the House in 1906, the Select Committee made their proposal to disregard all existing contracts. But they went much further than that. They made a proposal which had never before been heard of within those walls, viz., a proposal for a single tax. That was to say, that all the rating should be thrown on land values, and that buildings and improvements should be left scot-free from rating. That was an idea of some other hon. Members of the House. He had seen a very able article from his hon. friend the Member for West Ham in the Nineteenth Century, in which he advocated the same thing, setting forth that what was left to the Liberal Party was to shift the burden of the rates off houses and improvements on to the land. Hon. Gentlemen who took that attitude could not have taken the trouble of perusing the evidence which had been put before the Select Committee on this point. That evidence showed that the whole land value of the land throughout the United Kingdom from John o' Groats to Land's End, including suburban and building land, was not sufficient to meet the rates now collected from the towns, boroughs, and shires of the United Kingdom, even if they took 20s. in the £. Therefore he maintained that the proposal of a single tax was absurd. The Lord Chancellor had said that it was absurd. It was also impossible for the reason that it meant the confiscation of the whole of the land of the country. That being so, he was satisfied that no Legislature in this country would ever adopt the proposal. There was and there ought to be some means of getting at the unearned increment in the future. He took it that the meaning of the declarations of the Lord Advocate and the Prime Minister was that contracts were to be respected, and that the past must go. He would like to follow that point out. They could not trace the money. As a matter of fact 80 per cent. of the unearned increment in the past had gone into the pockets of men who ought to have been taxed, but were not. Therefore, they must let that go; they must not attempt to tax those who had paid full value for their property. But, there was a taxable quantity in the future in unearned increment. The hon. Member for Dulwich had said that no economist would tax unearned increment. But what were the proposals of this Bill? John Stuart Mill said—
And in the same chapter the hon. Gentleman would find that John Stuart Mill predicted for that purpose a valuation of the land. He believed that that was a form of taxation which the Government would ultimately adopt. As to the details of it and how it was to be worked out that was neither the time nor the occasion to speak; but of one thing he felt convinced, and that was that the imposition must be in the nature of a tax for the State and not for the rating authority or for the municipality. He would tell the House why. The municipalities and the rating authorities had already received a share of all the unearned increment. Let them take a case where a piece of land had been rated at its agricultural value at £3 or so an acre and rates had been paid upon that, say, of 4s. or 6s. an acre. The moment it was converted into a building site worth £100 an acre it immediately jumped up from £3 rating to £100 rating, that was from 12s. or 18s. to £20 or £30 actually received. He would give another case. A property in the City of London which cost £5,000 to build fifty years ago; the rating then was on £250; today the rating of that building was £1,000, and all these years the municipality had been receiving their yearly or rather their quinquennial increase on a value which had been raised from rates (say at 6s. 8d. in the £) say £83 to £333. In Scotland the same thing applied in regard to land converted from agricultural into building land. The local authority, without spending a single shilling on roads, which the owner made, had stepped straight away into the improvement, and he said that the municipality was not entitled to anything more. But the State was entitled to something more, because it was by the State more than by the municipality that the owner had been enabled to reap the increment. Whatever the outcome of that argument might be he did not propose to oppose this Bill. He thought the Bill would do good in the direction in which he proposed taxation. It was not ideal in that respect but he hoped that might be remedied and he would like to put down one or two Amendments. But the Lord Advocate was one of those strong men whom it was mighty difficult to convince. The Bill would do two good things. In the first place it would explode many of the fallacies and nebulous theories which were preached from the platforms of the League for the Taxation of Land Values. It would show that there was not the great El Dorado which some hon. Members thought there would be, although there would be a substantial sum for the benefit of the State. And most important of all it would force the public to give their thoughts to this subject, it would bring them into close contact with the matter; it would compel them to realise the truth about the case and bring them down from the clouds to the solid facts which were the only sure foundation upon which they could build any sound legislation."From the present date or at any subsequent time at which the Legislature may think fit, I see no objection in principle to declaring that the future increment of land value shall be liable to special taxation."
said he was by no means surprised that the Government had put down a very short sitting for the discussion of this Bill. The real truth of the matter was, that the authors of this Bill knew perfectly well that since it test appeared in the House the bottom had been knocked out of it during the autumn campaign in Scotland. The Solicitor - General, though his more recent speeches had been modelled on his previous ones, evinced a very chastened spirit, and to a large extent gave away many portions of the case which they were accustomed to hear stated by him with great ability in this House during the debates of last year. The Lord Advocate in his speech followed the course which he had taken last year in belittling the measure. He began by saying that it meant "Only a column and nothing more," and continued to chant that refrain, but he did not explain what were the figures which were to go into that column and how exceedingly difficult it was to know how they were to be arrived at. They had heard a great deal about Lord Balfour of Burleigh's report, and he thought the noble Lord had been badly treated by the supporters of this Pill in the way in which his proposals had been used to bolster up their contentions. Lord Balfour of Burleigh had carefully safeguarded himself in making those proposals which were only part of a larger scheme and which dealt with sites as they stood, when he recommended that there ought to be a separate valuation of sites of covered land. But what the Lord-Advocate proposed was that there should be a hypothetical valuation of a cleared site for purposes other than those for which it was at present used; while Lord Balfour of Burleigh dealt with a totally different principle and the Lord-Advocate had no right to claim him as supporting proposals of this sort. Lord Balfour of Burleigh had repudiated this suggestion in the most specific terms when the Prime Minister claimed him as a supporter of this Bill, and the Lord-Advocate was doing that which he had no business and no right to do, and what he knew he had no right to do when he also did so. The campaign in regard to this Bill had been carried on during the winter months by the Solicitor-General with a spirit which had been extremely admirable, but in a manner which was very monotonous; at all events, it had been monotonous to those who had to follow him and deal with his arguments. They had not heard in the course of the debate what was the ultimate use which the Government proposed to make of this valuation. In the debate last year the Solicitor-General for Scotland said distinctly that it was proposed to utilise this value or unimproved value as a new basis of rating, and to transfer the rating from the existing composite rental to the site value alone. He had recently had occasion to point out in a small country town that the effect of such a proposal would be to relieve wealthy manufacturers there at the expense of the poorer section of the community. There was such a flutter in the Radical dovecots as had never been seen before. He believed that the hon. Member for Clackmannan and Kinross had bitterly complained that the Solicitor-General and himself had made a cockpit of his constituency. But he knew the town, and it was a very natural cockpit for him to select, and when he pointed out that two very important manufacturing firms which at present paid a very large proportion of the rates would largely save on their rating owing to the fact that their buildings occupied sites of very little value, with no railway accommodation or anything to add to them, and that the burden would have to be borne by the poorer classes of the people who were less able to bear it, it was resolved that the Solicitor-General should come to the town to put him right. The Solicitor-General came and spoke as usual an hour and forty minutes. [Laughter.] Well, he said it was impossible to speak on this question in less than that time with any possibility of exhausting it. He could not do it, and he was sure the hon. Gentleman was good for another twenty minutes if need be. How did the hon. Gentleman answer him. The Solicitor-General's political friends expected him, so their local newspaper said, before his speech, to support its honest assertion that no sane statesman would ever propose or suggest that the local rating should be placed on site valuation alone. That was what he (Mr. Younger) had stated, the Solicitor-General had declared in his Second Beading speech last session, was the intention of the Government. Did the Solicitor-General tell the people that he was correct. He could not do that because then there would have been no votes left in that town for the hon. Member for Clackmannan and Kinross. What the hon. Gentleman said was that he had made a mistake in his valuation, and as his speech was difficult to answer, the Solicitor-General thought it safer to embark upon a discussion as to local valuation, of which he knew as much as he (Mr. Younger) did of the moon, put both his feet into a hole in doing it, and made an easy job for him to demolish his arguments ten days later. The net result was, that whatever the effect of this system might be in Glasgow or Edinburgh, it was totally inapplicable to small country towns in Scotland, where the manufacturers only occupied a small piece of land and where the cottagers and ordinary feuars occupied the greater proportion of it. The whole scheme was Utopian and impracticable The Lord-Advocate had expressed surprise that agriculturists were against this Bill. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that if the actual valuation of the land, void of all the improvements, were taken, the result would be that in his part of Scotland the farmers would pay no rates at all. There would be no basis on which to rate. Was it to be supposed for a moment that a farmer was to be allowed to use the roads and receive all the advantages of county administration and to pay nothing because his farm had no land value. The proposal was ludicrous. In the case of a farm to which he had drawn attention in the previous year the cost of the visible improvements and drainage, and so forth, was £625 more than the whole saleable value of the form. What would be the value of that land with those improvements taken away. Having dealt with the rural aspect he would deal with the case of the Solicitor-General in adapting this principle to the towns. Surely the annual value of town property was a better criterion of a mans ability to pay for the advantages obtained from the rates than the site upon which the property was erected. The ability of a man to build upon and develop his site was a far better criterion of his ability to pay than the mere possession of the site. Similarly, if the advantages which they obtained were measured by the cooperative services rendered to them out of the rates, surely the size of the house in which a man lived and the number of people who lived in it formed a better criterion of that man's ability to pay than the mere site value. A man with a large house required more water and police protection. He obtained every thing in larger proportion. Then why should he not pay a larger proportion. This was an extremely dangerous proposal. It was dangerous politically, and the hon. Member for Preston in solemn sentences warned hon. Gentlemen opposite of the risks they were running in bringing it into the political arena and supporting a Bill designed to relieve the rich at the expense of the poor. He regarded it as dangerous for quite another reason. The Government supporters tickled the electors with all sorts of prophesies and had told them that this Bill would settle the housing question, provide for the unemployed, defeat Tariff Reform and in fact do everything, and the electors of Scotland knew so little about it that many of them believed these things. The Bill, they asserted was going to be an El Dorado and bring enormous revenue from some source or other. He would do the Solicitor-General the justice to say that he had never said it would add to the revenue. At one time the hon. and learned Gentleman thought he had found in it an El Dorado. When he brought in the Report of the Select Committee and proposed to tax existing feu duties, he thought he saw rivers of golden sand. But those rivers have run out and he no longer believed there was added revenue in this proposal. But what this proposal did was to give the unfair politician an opportunity of making out a case which he knew was not fair but which attracted the electors until it was shown that the poorer people would have to pay, and then they came out in their thousands, as they did recently in one town he could mention, and condemned it, and would have nothing to do with it. He himself would like to see this question out of the way with a view to the next general election for the reasons he had given. He would like to see some typical valuation made in Scotland so that the bottom might be entirely knocked out of this scheme. He would conclude by saying that he objected to and protested against an unfair burden being placed on the whole of Scotland in order that this result might be obtained; a result which would be impracticable and useless for any purpose and which would never be the basis of local taxation in that country.
said that the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs had done him a great honour. He had made three speeches on this subject, one in his own constituency, one in Glasgow, and one in Edinburgh, but he emphatically denied that in any of those speeches he had hinted that the Government supported the view that feu duty owners should be included in the ranks of the ratepayers. He, in those speeches, explained the reasons upon which the Select Committee arrived at its conclusions, but by no word did he suggest that the Lord Advocate, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the Prime Minister had changed the views they had clearly expressed. The hon. Member for Dulwich had attributed to his speeches a depression in the building trade, and said that immediately the Prime Minister made his declaration feu duties reverted to their original level; but if they did, what right had the hon. Gentleman to attribute that to the action of the Government?
said as he had been challenged he would say the right was this. Seeing how long the right hon. Gentleman was in making up his mind, people were led to suppose he had changed his views.
said the Prime Minister had expressed his views distinctly, and there was no ground for assuming from anything in his speeches that his right hon. friend had changed his views. In those speeches he explained how the Select Committee arrived at its findings, and in doing so hoped he did not do wrong. He seemed to remember a Secretary to the Board of Trade who advocated a duty on manufactured imports. Would he, if there had been a fall in those manufactures, say it was due to the action of his Government?
said there was this great distinction. The Prime Minister in the Government of which he was a junior Member distinctly stated that no change would be made during the existing Parliament.
said the present Prime Minister also did so, and no one except the hon. Member for Dulwich had ever extracted from his (Mr. Ure's) speeches any hint or suggestion that the Government had adopted a policy which distinguished members of the Government had distinctly repudiated at an earlier stage. They had never changed their minds on the subject. Did any hon. Member suggest that he, as Chairman of a Select Committee on a private Member's Bill, was doing anything wrong when he refused to communicate with any of his colleagues in the Government when considering the Report? He would have considered himself disloyal to his colleagues if he had taken such directions. They had come to their own conclusions. The case for the Bill was this. It was introduced not only for the purpose which the Lord Advocate had stated, but further as an essential preliminary to a change in the system of rating. It was obvious that a new system of rating must be set up before they could consider the application of the standard. There were obviously two applications. They might abandon the present standard of rating altogether and substitute for it a rate upon the land value alone, or they might propose a new and additional rate upon the owners of site values—a rate limited in amount, definite in its incidence and definite in the purposes to which it was to be applied. It was wise that the standard should first be erected, seen and considered before they proceeded to consider its application. It would be barely possible to consider its application until the standard was actually erected. That was the view which the Select Committee and the Government held. The justification for a rate upon the value of land apart from buildings and improvements was this. The land derived its value from the activity, enterprise, and expenditure of the community and not of the individual owner of the land, and accordingly there was an immediate, direct, and palpable relation between the value of the land and the prosperity and expenditure of the community. Obviously, therefore, by far the best method of estimating the amount which the ratepayer should contribute to the rates was by taking the value of the land as the basis. Here was a standard which rose and fell in sensitive response to the prosperity and expenditure of the community. Structure and site were essentially different both in origin and in character. Structure was perishable and needed renewal and repair. Site was permanent and usually increased rather than diminished in value. Accordingly a rating standard which combined these two elements was prima facie, at all events, an unwise and unfair standard. What advantage could be gained by adopting this new standard of rating in place of the present standard? There were two advantages, the first direct and the second indirect. The direct advantage was a more equitable, fairer, and juster redistribution of the burden of rating. The advantage was displayed in threefold fashion. In the first place, some persons in the community who at present offered no contribution to the rates would be invited to join the ranks of the ratepayers. They were the owners of vacant land suitable for building and not actually built upon, and their contribution to the rates proportionately essened the contribution of the other ratepayers. The second result was that owners and occupiers of land who at present offered a contribution to the rate would be asked to offer an additional contribution. They were owners and occupiers of land which was not fully availed of, and upon which there stood antiquated unsuitable buildings that had fallen into dilapidation and decay. The site was valuable, but the owner had misused it, and, accordingly, they would be invited to make an additional contribution to the rates owing to the advantages which their land had derived from the expenditure and energy of their fellow-citizens. The third result would be that other owners and occupiers of land which was fully availed of and on which eminently suitable buildings, or buildings superior to the site, at present existed would be asked to offer a smaller contribution to the rates on account of the increased contribution of the first and second classes. The indirect result would be that industrial enterprise would be relieved of its burdens and building would be encouraged.
Prove it.
said it would be proved if they were allowed to set up the new standard. They would cheapen building land by bringing more into the market, and they would relieve the building industry of the hampering restrictions under which it at present lay, because whenever business plant was increased or machinery fixed or something was done to buildings up went the rates. They blotted out altogether buildings and improvements as the standard of rating, and took not the fruit of men's labour, but simply the land. Men were willing to spend their money and material in the way of building when they knew that every additional improvement they made would not add to their rate. Accordingly if that indirect advantage followed they would have done something to relieve overcrowding in great centres by bringing more land into the market, and owners of land in the market competing against one another would bring down the value of building land, with the result that they would have more, better, and cheaper houses, and a great step would be taken towards the solution of the housing problem. That was a very brief outline of the case for the Bill as an essential preliminary to a new standard of rating. The objections urged against the Bill naturally fell into two parts. The first related to the Bill now before the House, and the second to the Rating Bill. He did not dispute the relevancy of the objection, because it was quite obvious that if the second step was unwise and imprudent they ought not to take the first step, and if they challenged the principle of rating successfully one of the main reasons for the Bill would disappear. There were three objections urged. The first was that they could not make the valuation. His answer to that was that it had been done. For twenty years back in seven of the counties of Scotland the rent and the consequent rate had been fixed upon the valuation of the land alone apart from the buildings and improvements upon the land. In all these comities where the custom was for the tenant to erect buildings and make improvements there was no rent charged upon them, and there was a valuation every year of land alone apart from buildings and improvements, upon which rent and rates were fixed. With regard to urban districts, his answer was that for upwards of half a century it had been the regular prac- tice in Scotland to make the valuation of land and buildings separately. Did hon. Members say there was any difficulty in valuing land which was at the present moment covered with buildings? Under this Bill the valuers would certainly require to imagine the buildings cleared away from the site—not a very large draft on the imagination—and then to say what price a willing buyer would give to a willing seller for the site without the buildings. But that was already frequently done by valuers in Scotland under certain Acts of Parliament, the site being valued apart from the buildings. It had been done for the last twenty years in rural districts and for upwards of half a century in the urban districts. The second objection was that if this were done the result would be capricious, arbitrary, and conjectural. If that meant that the valuation would be a matter of opinion, he assented, and replied that every valuation was a matter of opinion and reasonable expectation. It was not to the purpose to say that if they found the actual rental they ought to accept it as the basis of valuation. Yes, if it were an honest rental, and if there were no other consideration than the rent in the lease. But, then, in the vast majority of cases in Scotland such property was not let at all; it was in the occupation of the owner, and yet every year, at present, the value was put on the valuation roll as the opinion or conjecture of the valuer or assessor. The third objection was that the expense and the trouble would be excessive and unreasonable. That, again, was entirely a matter of opinion and guess. The most eminent and experienced valuers who were examined on this point declared that it was easy of accomplishment, easier, indeed, than valuation under the existing system. No one could estimate the expense entailed. The hon. Member for Dulwich was wrong when he said that the Statute of 1854 was not intended to alter the basis of rating. It was so intended, because that Statute was based upon a valuation taken in the time of Oliver Cromwell, whereas from 1854 onward a new valuation was substituted. As a matter of fact a far greater change was made by the Statute of 1854 than that of substituting rating on land for rating on land and buildings. At any rate, if a thing were worth doing, the trouble and expense of it ought not to stand in the way. The Select Committee, following the conclusion arrived at by the minority headed by Lord Balfour of Burleigh, concluded that a valuation could be made without any undue expenditure of either time or money. That brought him to the objections to the new system of rating. The first objection urged by hon. Members opposite was that it would mean confiscation and dishonesty. Surely it would only mean that if the rate-collector every year actually carried off a portion of the thing which was rated. But it was not things that were rated, but persons. Accordingly, when they spoke of rating a thing they only meant that they used the thing as a standard or measure by which they fixed the amount that the owner of it should contribute to the rate. If to rate the value of the land would be to confiscate the land, then to rate the value of the land and the buildings would be to confiscate the land and buildings, and that being so, they had been confiscating land and buildings for years without anyone complaining. [" Hear hear"] It was exactly the same fallacy under which those laboured who said or thought they had discovered here some hitherto unsuspected source of wealth, from which, if they put a conduit pipe into it—to use the picturesque figure of the Leader of the Opposition in his recent speech in Scotland—a fertilising flow would issue forth over the whole urban and rural area of the country. No such unattached source of rating existed. There was no source from which rates could be derived except their own pockets or the pockets of their neighbours. [OPPOSITION cries of "Especially your neighbours."] The second objection, urged by the hon. Member for Preston, was that the effect of this new system of rating would be to place an unduly heavy burden on poor people living near the centre of large populous places, and consequently to lighten the rates of wealthy men occupying mansion-houses in the vicinity. As he listened to the hon. Member advancing this argument, he thought he was denouncing the present system. The exact effect of the present system was that the small shopkeeper was heavily rated in proportion to the man who lived in a mansion, whereas the new system, by bringing more land into the market, and thereby pulling down values near the centre, would remove that grievance. They did not value the grounds and site upon which a mansion rested at the same figure at which they valued agricultural land from the obvious reason that its value in the market was higher. Therefore the immediate effect of adopting this new standard would rectify the very thing which the hon. Member for Preston complained of, for it would compel the owner of mansion-houses to pay a larger contribution to the rates. The last objection was that the value of land in a particular community did not always or necessarily depend on the expenditure, energy, and enterprise of that community. According to the hon. Member for Dulwich, the energy, enterprise, and expenditure of the countries with which that community traded must also be taken into account. If that theory were well founded there were streets in Glasgow which derived their value from foreign countries. They would have to carry their discrimination further than from one community to another. They would have to find out in what particular street or building a man carried on his business. George Square and Ingram Street, it might be argued, derived their value from "Greenland's icy mountains and India's coral strands." The fallacy was that they took the essential for the accidental, and the accidental for the essential. And, it being a quarter before Eight of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to put the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded this day under the Order of the House of 13th February.
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question.
The House divided:—Ayes, 363; Noes, 99. (Division List No. 14.)
AYES
| ||
| Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.) | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. | Helme, Norval Watson |
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Cowan, W. H. | Hemmerde, Edward George |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Agnew, George William | Cremer, Sir William Randal | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling. | Crombie, John William | Henry, Charles S. |
| Alden, Percy | Crossley, William J. | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Cullinan, J. | Higham, John Sharp |
| Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) | Curran, Peter Francis | Hobart, Sir Robert |
| Armstrong, W. C. Heaton | Dalziel, James Henry | Hodge, John |
| Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry | Davies, David (Montgomery Co. | Hogan, Michael |
| Astbury, John Meir | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Holden, E. Hohkinson |
| Atherley-Jones, L. | Davies, W. Howell (Bristol. S.) | Holland, Sir William Henry |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Baker, Joseph A (Finsbury, E.) | Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) | Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N. | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N. |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. | Horniman, Emslie John |
| Barker, John | Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Horridge, Thomas Gardner |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Dillon, John | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Barnard, E. B. | Dobson, Thomas W. | Hudson, Walter |
| Barnes, G. N. | Donelan, Captain A. | Hyde, Clarendon |
| Barran, Rowland Hirst | Duckworth, James | Idris, T. H. W. |
| Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) | Duffy, William J. | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Beale, W. P. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Isaacs, Rufus Daniel |
| Beacuhamp, E. | Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) | Jcakson, R S. |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall | Jacoby, Sir James Alfred |
| Bell, Richard | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Jardine, Sir J. |
| Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) | Jenkins, J. |
| Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonp'rt | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Bennett, E. N. | Elibank, Master of | Jones, Sir D Brynmor (Swansea) |
| Berridge, T. H. D. | Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward | Jones, Leif (Appleby) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romf'rd | Erskine, David C. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire |
| Black, Arthur W. | Essex, R. W. | Jowett, F. W. |
| Boland, John | Esslemont, George Birnie | Joyce, Michael |
| Bottomley, Horatio | Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Kavanagh, Walter M. |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Fenwick, Charles | Kearley, Hudson E. |
| Brace, William | Ferens, T. R. | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Ferguson, R. C. Munro | Kelley, George D. |
| Branch, James | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Brigg, John | Findlay, Alexander | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Flynn, James Christopher | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter | Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) |
| Brunner, Rt. Hn Sir J. T. (Cheshire | Freeman-Thomas, Freeman | Lambert, George |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Fuller, John Michael F. | Lamont, Norman |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Fullerton, Hugh | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Gill, A. H. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W. | Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Glendinning, R. G. | Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington |
| Buxton, Rt. Hn. Sydney Charles | Glover, Thomas | Lehmann, R. C. |
| Byles, William Pollard | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Lever, A Levy (Essex, Harwich) |
| Cameron, Robert | Gooch, George Peabody | Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Greenwood, Hamar (York) | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick | Griffith, Ellis J. | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
| Chance, Frederick William | Gulland, John W. | Lough, Thomas |
| Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius | Lupton, Arnold |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hall, Frederick | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Clarke, C. Goddard (Peckham) | Halpin, J. | Lynch, H. B. |
| Cleland, J. W. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Clough, William | Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk B'ghs) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r) | Mackarness, Frederic C. |
| Cobbold, Felix Thornley | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithn'ss-sh | Maclean, Donald |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Hart-Davies, T. | Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. |
| Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S Pancras, W | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | MacNeill, John Gordon Swift |
| Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Harwood, George | MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S. |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) |
| Corbett, CH (Sussex, E Grinst'd | Haworth, Arthur A. | M'Crae, George |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hayden, John Patrick | M'Kean, John |
| M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Priee, Robert John (Norfolk, E.) | Strachey, Sir Edward |
| M'Killop, W. | Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Pullar, Sir Robert | Stuart, James ((Sunderland) |
| M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Radford, G. H. | Summerbell, T. |
| M'Micking, Major G. | Rainy, A. Rolland | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Maddison, Frederick | Raphael, Herbert H. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Mallet, Charles E. | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Manfield, Harry (Northants) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Thorne, William |
| Marnham, F. J. | Reddy, M | Tillett, Louis John |
| Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Torrance, Sir A. M. |
| Massie, J. | Redmond, William (Clare) | Toulmin, George |
| Meagher, Michael | Rees, J. D. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Menzies, Walter | Rendall, Athelstan | Ure, Alexander |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n | Verney, F. W. |
| Mond, A. | Ridsdale, E. A. | Villiers, Ernest Amherst |
| Money, L. G. Ghiozza | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Vivian, Henry |
| Montagu, E. S. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Montgomery, H. G. | Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) | Walker, H. De R. (Leicester) |
| Mooney, J. J. | Robertson, Rt. Hn. E (Dundee) | Walsh, Stephen |
| Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradf'rd | Walters, John Tudor |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Walton, Joseph |
| Murphy, John (Kerry, East) | Robinson, S. | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent |
| Murphy, N. J. (Kilkenny, S.) | Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampt'n |
| Murray, James | Roche, John (Galway, East) | Wardle, George J. |
| Myer, Horatio | Rogers, F. E. Newman | Waring, Walter |
| Napier, T. B. | Rose, Charles Day | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) | Rowlands, J. | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan |
| Newnes, Sir George (Swansea) | Runciman, Walter | Wason, John Cat-heart (Orkney) |
| Nicholls, George | Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Nichollson, Charles N. (Doncast'r | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Nolan, Joseph | Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) | Weir, James Galloway |
| Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Nussey, Thomas Willans | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Nuttall, Harry | Scars, J. E. | Whitehead, Rowland |
| O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid | Seaverns, J. H. | Whiteley, John Henry (Halifax |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Seddon, J. | Wiles, Thomas |
| O'Connor James (Wicklow, W. | Seely, Colonel | Wilkie, Alexander |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Shackleton, David James | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarth'n |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) | Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) |
| O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | Williamson, A. |
| O'Grady, J. | Sheehan, Daniel Daniel | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N. | Sherwell, Arthur James | Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) |
| O'Malley, William | Shipman, Dr. John G. | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Simon, John Allsebrook | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Partington, Oswald | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. John | Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Snowden, P. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye | Spicer, Sir Albert | Wodehouse, Lord |
| Philipps, Col. Ivor (S'thampton) | Stanger, H. Y. | Wood, T. M'Kinnon |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Yoxall, James Henry |
| P rie, Duncan V. | Stanley, Hn. A. Lyulph (Chesh. | |
| Pollard, Dr. | Steadman, W. C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Whiteley and Mr. J. A. Pease. |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Stewart, Halley (Greenock) | |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) |
NOES.
| ||
| Acland-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F | Bull, Sir William James | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S. |
| Anson, Sir William Reynell | Butcher, Samuel Henry | Craig, Captain James (Down, E. |
| Anstruther-Gray, Major | Carlile, E. Hildred | Cross, Alexander |
| Balcarres, Lord | Castlereagh, Viscount | Dalrymple, Viscount |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (City Lond | Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor G W. | Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan |
| Baring, Capt. Hn. G (Winchester | Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Fardell, Sir T. George |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Wore. | Fell, Arthur |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Fletcher, J. S. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Clive, Percy Archer | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) |
| Bertram, Julius | Collings, Rt. Hn. J. (Birmingham | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Bowles, G. Stewart | Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) | Guinness, Walter Edward |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Haddock, George G. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Courthope, G. Loyd | Hamilton, Marquess of |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Starkey, John R. |
| Hay, Hon. Claude George | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh. |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Morpeth, Viscount | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Hill, Sir Clement (Shrewsbury) | Morrison-Bell, Captain | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Hills, J. W. | Neild, Herbert | Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. | Parkes, Ebenezer | Tuke, Sir John Batty |
| Kenyon-Slnney, Rt. Hn. Col. W. | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp | Valentia, Viscount |
| Keswick, William | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclcsall) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset. W.) |
| Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles | Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm |
| Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) | Sassoon, Sir Edward Albeit | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham | Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Smith, Abel H. (Hertford. East) | Younger, George |
| M'Arthur, Charles | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool. Walton | |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Harold Cox and Mr. Everett. |
| Marks, H. H. (Kent | Soares, Ernest J. |
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed, pursuant to the Order of the House of 13th February, to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.
Political Funds
in rising to propose "That this House regrets the secrecy under which political funds are accumulated and administered, and regards such secrey as a peril to its privileges and character," said: In moving the Motion which stands in my name I particularly desire to emphasise the precise terms in which it is drawn; for it is one whose purpose might be easily misunderstood, and it is one which, were it misunderstood, might give an offence or pain which I, and those who support me in this matter, particularly desire to avoid giving. I do not propose for the consideration of the House the evils that may or may not arise from the existence of great political funds in the hands of political parties. What I propose for its consideration is the secrecy under which those funds are accumulated and disbursed. That secrecy, and that secrecy alone, has furnished me with the motive for my Motion and is the cardinal point which I desire to emphasise. That great funds should be accumulated for the purpose of supporting candidates in any public interest is not an evil nor even a disadvantage. It is, under modern conditions, a necessity, and the more democratic those conditions become the more necessary will it be in some form or other that such funds should exist. The expenses of travel incidental to an election, the expenses in the printing and distribution of argument upon either side, are not diminishing, they are increasing, and if no such funds were present to support any particular cause, that cause could only be represented in this House by wealthy men. It is not the existence of such reserve funds with which we quarrel. It is merely the secrecy under which in comparatively recent times and by a political development not due to individuals—a mechanical, and, as it were, unconscious development—that secrecy has come to exist. Well, then, what are the evils attaching to this element of secrecy, and how does it, in the words of the Motion, form "a peril to the character and privileges of this House"? I believe, and I hope to lead the House to believe, that that secrecy is a peril. A peril, I say, and no more. Had it existed for a longer period; had this method of secret accumulation and secret distribution become part and parcel of our political life; had it existed for two generations, then it would be not a peril but an evil, existing in fact. I merely say, therefore, that it is a peril, but an imminent peril. The first point for the House to consider is whether the secrecy of the accumulation is a peril to the privileges and character of this House; how far is it a peril to the honour of the country, and how far it affects our political morality, whether it is or is not an advantage that it should have led to certain practices with regard to public honours, I am not concerned with at present, but I am asking, how far is that secrecy a peril to the privileges and character of this House? Well, that accumulation, effected as it is, secretly, is a twofold peril. It is a peril to the representative character of the House of Commons, because the mass of the electorate is, to some extent, baulked of its freedom by the secrecy. The constituencies are unable to judge by what influences and from what motives the choice of a candidate may be determined. Those influences and motives are concealed from the mass of the electorate, and this gives too great weight to a few men who are, to use a vulgar phrase, "in the know." It gives a great weight to the few men who are large subscribers in the district, and it does not give sufficient weight to those from whom the authority of this House proceeds—that is, the electors of England. That is the first part of the peril which the secret accumulation of these funds causes. I will go further than this; I will go so far as to say that until the issue was raised upon a recent occasion both in this House and in the public Press, the great mass of the electorate had not so much as heard of the existence of these party funds. It is quite impossible that under such conditions true representation should be obtained. In the second place, it is inevitable that so long as these great sums of money remain unaudited, the full initiative that should lie with the electorate first, next with the House of Commons, and lastly with the Government of the day as the spokesman of the majority, is affected. I may be told that this initiative would be equally affected and the representative character of the House equally marred were the funds in question publicly contributed and dispensed. No one can maintain that who knows anything of men. It is an essential convention of our politics in this country to pretend that large contributions do not affect the initiative of the Government, but I cannot accept that convention. I cannot believe that the payment of considerable sums of money in secret is made with no expectation of any return, and, even among the best of men, with no expectation of consequent authority. That wealth will always have its influence is true. But wealth when it acts publicly cannot dare to do what it will often dare to do when it acts in a secret manner. A man will bring influences to boar privately in favour of policies which he would never dare publicly to defend. The very names of certain contributors would be a warning to the public, just as the names of others would guarantee the independence with which the funds were used. As for that argument, so common in our political life, that no such pressure is ever exercised for private objects, the answer is simple enough: First, that such purity, did it exist, would be a phenomenon unique in history—and we are not accustomed to producing unique phenomena; it is incredible that such pressure should be absent. Secondly, that the only possible motive for secrecy is the opportunity it affords for exercising that pressure. I will put a hypothetical case. I will suppose a man attempting to extend what has already unfortunately begun, the system of monopolies in matters of ordinary consumption. I will suppose a crisis during which legislative and even administrative action promptly used would prevent the formation of such a monopoly. Can anyone pretend that if this man had given largely to the secret funds those who benefited by this gift would remain indifferent? Or can anyone pretend that an action of this kind could take place where all was public and above-board? There is an example of something which has already come very close to us, and which in the near future will be a permanent and dangerous menace to the economic health of this country. Or to take another case. Let us suppose a man to subscribe so largely to the funds of any one Party that his withdrawal would seriously affect its strength in an electoral campaign. The man may, for the best of public reasons, differ on some essential point with the overwhelming majority of his own Party. If his action is secret, affecting but a small knot of men with whom he is in personal contact, and who are familiar with the danger his secession would present, may it not of itself dwarf or reduce to impotence the whole policy of the group to which he belongs? Here is no case of corruption, but is it not a case in which the power of wealth is quite unduly exaggerated, and in which the opinions of one man are permitted to exercise upon public affairs a determining effect which they would never have had if his talents or public position alone were considered, and which they possess solely on account of his wealth? And is not secrecy a cause of that very individual preponderance? The secrecy of the distribution of these funds is less dangerous and more excusable than the secrecy of their accumulation. It is clear that a motive of delicacy and of good feeling prompted those who were responsible at the origin of the system to keep private sums that had been given in aid of expenses to individuals. But even this side of the matter has its perils. There is the danger of extending the class of men to whom such advantages are afforded. The boundaries are difficult to draw between a man who can afford nothing, a little, the greater part, or the whole of the expenses of an election, and unless there be publicity there is every danger that within a certain space of time the bulk of a political party will have acquired the custom of obtaining such support. There is another and a much greater danger on which I desire to speak with the fullest recognition that it is a danger only, not a present evil. I mean the danger that pressure may be put upon individuals in particular cases; and here I must publicly state that I believe such pressure to be exceedingly rare. The House will remember that some months ago a question of privilege was raised upon that matter. It was raised by the noble Lord the Member for Marylebone, and the House divided upon it and came to some valuable decision which I do not remember. I think that in this matter, as it is of such gravity, as it touches the honour of so many men, though it is a personal matter, it is right that I should make one explanation that will give my argument, I hope, a greater value. I will draw a lesson from my own example. I personally am convinced that pressure of that kind if it has been brought to bear at all, has been brought to bear so slightly as not to affect as yet the working of our political system. I know that from my own case. It was from the Party funds that my expenses were paid. It was my duty as a Catholic, speaking for the Catholics of Lancashire, to vote with independence upon the Education Bill, and I have adopted an independent attitude on other occasions. On every occasion I have been absolutely free from pressure of any kind. Having made that clear statement to the House, hon. Members will agree with me that I am discussing this question in an impersonal mariner. As I have said, public pressure has not, so far as I know existed. If others say it has existed, it is for them to bring it forward. I do not deny it. If it has, I do not think it has affected our political life, and in my case it has not existed at all. But is there another form of pressure that could be brought to bear? Yes. It is possible for an unscrupulous man of great wealth to approach a scrupulous man of no wealth, and to hint to him that he is a great subscriber to the Party fund, and that the scrupulous man is expected in matters more or less neutral, or even commercial to take a certain course. My suggestion is not a chimerical one—we have come exceedingly close to it in the life of the present Parliament—and it is an extreme danger for the future. The man I picture has done a particularly wicked act, but it is impossible to pay out money secretly without there being some sense of value to be received, and it is impossible to take money secretly without some sense of dependency. Such pressure can be brought, and there is a danger that it may be brought, and we want to avoid it. Those who think they can defend this system may say: "What would you substitute for it?" My object to-night is merely negative. It is merely to ventilate the question and see what the opinion of the House is upon it. I am not proposing a positive remedy, though personally I would suggest a system such as that which obtains in the case of all other economic machinery, namely, that an audit should take place. It is generally admitted that if the secrecy with which these great public funds were replaced by publicity, less money would be required. I think it would myself. I think the Corn Law League, for instance, or any other of those great leagues for reform, had been secret in its character, they would have had more money at their disposal, but they would have done less. And if this accumulation of small sums lead, as it undoubtedly would, to certain necessary and immediate reforms, such as second ballot such as the payment by the State of all strictly legal election expenses, it would be welcome. But it certainly ought not to stand in the way of an immediate and necessary political reform. I have admitted these evils are slight, but will they remain slight? We cannot go to our constituents and say they are slight at the moment, because the whole matter is in the dark; if anybody says one is expected to vote for a certain policy, because to their knowledge Mr. So-and-so has subscribed largely to the party funds what can one reply? I have myself been asked such questions as this: "Is it not the fact that the Government (not the present Government or the past Government, but any Government) have been moved by certain subscriptions?" and I had to answer: "I do not know." But that doubt exists in the public mind. I must close my remarks—I have spoken too long by begging the House to remember that the projection of this Motion is not frivolous. We do not desire to move a Motion that might excite a momentary interest. Still less do we desire to move one of which the interest would be purely personal or touched with scandal, and that note of amusement which comes to us when discussing the misfortunes and follies of others move this Motion because this is the beginning of a system which, in the near future, so rapidly changing is our system, may become the method of discipline of both political parties. We want to prevent that. We want it to become impossible in the near future that the discipline of any Party should be only made effective by a payment in secret to a fund, and a payment in secret out of that fund to a private individual. With that I conclude. I beg to move.
In seconding this Motion, I only wish to emphasise a few of the points which were dealt with so ably by my hon. friend. The first one I wish to emphasise is that this is a non-party Motion. It is not an attack upon this Government or indeed any particular Government. It is an attack upon a custom which we cannot permit. I appeal to all quarters of the House for support for this Motion because it is in the hope of furthering the purity of our Parliamentary system that it is moved. The second point I desire to emphasise is the secrecy of the system. We have no objection to open payments. Personally, I wish all Members of Parliament were paid and paid openly, and all the expenses of Returning officers were paid, and canvassing by paid canvassers prohibited. When it comes to posters I wish they were prohibited, and that any interference in any election by any league, whether it is the Tariff Reform League or any other, were prohibited. As a matter of curiosity, too, I would like the hon. Baronet the Member for the Wellington Division of Somerset, whom I see in his place, to tell the House what is the difference between tariff reform funds and the funds of the Conservative Party. We do not object to open payments or to honours given purely for services rendered, but we certainly quarrel with honours conferred for a secret money payment and no service at all. I do not know whether there are secret funds belonging to the Liberal Party, because I have subscribed to none and have not received a farthing from any. But the fact remains that strange people, whom nobody knows anything about, go up to another place and the matter is forgotten as quickly as possible. I think these secret payments are more injurious to the donor than to the recipients; still if we are to have a hereditary Second Chamber I would prefer that that Chamber should not be composed of the descendants of men who purchased their honours. The only honours that a Member of this House wants are the love of the people whom he has served during his life and their reverence after his death.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House regrets the secrecy under which political funds are accumulated and administered, and regards such secrecy as a peril to its privileges and character."—( Mr. Belloc.)
said that, in taking part in the debate, he desired to preface his remarks with a word or two of thanks to the hon. Member for Salford for having brought the matter forward. With regard to the hon. Member who had just seconded the Motion, he must say that he differed from him when he said that this was not an attack upon the present or the previous Government. He thought it was most essentially so, and it was with a view of proving that it was so that he intended to try and elaborate his case. He thought it would be conceded that it would not be out of place on his part to try and carry the House back to 15th July last and briefly review what took place on that occasion. It would be well within everybody's memory that on that date he was brought before the House for a breach of privilege at the instigation of the noble Lord opposite on account of a letter he had written to The Times a few days previously. That letter contained two definite charges. The first was that titles and decorations in this country of all sorts were—it was a matter of everyday occurrence—bought and sold. The second was that the proceeds of the sale of those titles and decorations went to fill the party war chests. Those war chests were kept by two men only. In the case of the Party in power the two men were, first of all, the Prime Minister, and then the Patronage Secretary. In the case of the Party in opposition, the war chest was kept by the Leader of the Opposition and by the Chief Opposition Whip. He further said in that letter that in the case of necessitous candidates grants-in-aid were given, and that later, when those candidates became Members of that House, pressure was brought to bear upon them by their respective Whips to ensure that their votes and speeches were of such a nature as to satisfy the exigencies of the parties to which they belonged. In the debate which took place on the Motion of the noble Lord, only the second part of the letter was dealt with. The first part was ignored altogether; but he was bound to say it was not left out of the division which took place on his conduct. The House took the same serious view of the allegations contained in his letter as he did himself. The noble Lord not only moved that he (Mr. Lea) had committed a breach of privilege, but he asked the House to institute a Committee of Inquiry into the various charges which he (Mr. Lea) had made and to report thereon. Had that Committee been appointed its task must necessarily have been to investigate all the allegations in the letter which he wrote to The Times. He regretted that it was not appointed. Immediately afterwards he put down on the Notice Paper a Motion to this effect—
Had that Committee been appointed with power to compel the presence before it of bankers end pass books, he unhesitatingly said that he would have had no difficulty in proving his case up to the hilt. He did not think there was a man who could get up and deny it—either the Chief Opposition Whip or the Patronage Secretary. He had not withdrawn one word of his accusation or retracted it. On the contrary, he reaffirmed now every word that he had previously said. He would go further, and say that it was a matter of common knowledge and gossip in the House, in the clubs, and in the streets, that the titles and decorations in vogue in this country were just as lacking in dignity, prestige, and moral worth as the methods by which they were obtained were loathsome, corrupt, and nauseous. The Prime Minister said in the course of his speech—"That a Select Committee of twenty-one Members of this House be appointed to inquire and report to this House whether during the last four years the Prime Minister in office has recommended to His Majesty for elevation to the Peerage, Baronetage, Knighthood or Privy Council, any person or persons who have made any money payments either to party funds or any other person or persons in respect of such recommendation, and further to inquire and report whether the Prime Minister in office at the time was responsible for any such recommendation under such circumstances, and, if not, who was responsible; and that the said Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records."
With the first part of that quotation he was entirely in agreement. Nay, he would go further and say that the amount of corruption which took place during the Tory regime, and for which the Leader of the Opposition and the Chief Opposition Whip were responsible—"Let me add, if it is a charge against this Government, it is equally a charge against those responsible for the government of the country in previous years; and it is equally a charge against the parties of Members sitting below the gangway opposite."
I understand that the hon. Member is making a direct charge of corruption against these night. Gentlemen. If so, he is entirely out of order.
pointed out that the Motion regretted the secrecy under which political funds were accumulated and administered and there was a direct charge in the Motion of dishonesty. He submitted, that any hon. Member was entitled to deny the accusation which had never yet been denied, and that his hon. friend was entitled, seeing that the accusation had not been denied, to make the charge and to press it home.
The Motion on the Paper is: "That this House regrets the secrecy under which political funds are accumulated and administered, and regards such secrecy as a peril to its privileges and character." That has nothing to do with the making of a direct charge on the honesty of any hon. Member of this House.
On a point of order, I submit that no attack whatever has been made on the honour either of the Patronage Secretary or of the Chief Opposition Whip.
That surely is a point for me to decide.
said that he wanted to be clearly understood. What he had said involved no personal charge either against the present Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition, neither had it reference to the two Whips. It was the system that he was attacking. It was not their personal honour he was attacking; it was the party funds.
I am very glad to hear that explanation: I understood the hon. Member to say that corruption was carried out under the right hon. Gentlemen. That was a particular charge. I understand now that the hon. Member repudiates it. If so, he should withdraw the charge.
said that he withdrew any reference of a personal nature; but he said that political corruption during the régime of the present Leader of the Opposition from 1903 to 1905 had reached such a stage that the tariff for titles and decorations was well-known in the City of London, while the percentage or commission allowed to the introducer of the customer for them was equally well known. He sincerely trusted the House would excuse any heat of words on his part. With regard, however, to the second part of the quotation from the Prime Ministar's speech it would be remembered that the hon. Member for the Clitheroe Division quickly got up in his place and repudiated with scorn any similar liability. He pointed out that the party funds belonging to that party were public and were audited. The right hon. Gentleman when he got up knew well besides that the parties presided over by the hon. Member for Waterford and the hon. Member for Barnard Castle had never filed their funds to repletion by corrupting the fountain of honour at its very source. Both the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition said that it would add neither to the dignity of the House nor to its proceedings to take action. When he read that over after-wards by his own fireside, he thought it was extremely kind of them, until he realised that they were the chief culprits whom he had had accused in his letter to The Times. There was another channel as well as that he had indicated to which the proceeds of these sales went, but as that was not germane to the subject now under discussion he would make no further allusion to it, except to say that that also would have to fall within the scope of the suggested inquiry. The evidence that could be extracted in that direction would, he was convinced, be more startling still when he reflected that the market price of peerages reached sometimes as high as £150,000. [Cries of "Oh, oh !"] He knew what he was talking about. Out of curiosity he had examined the file of The Times for the last four years ending December, 1907, and he would quote the dates so that Members might check his figures. First of all, there were the lists of 9th November, 1903; 9th November 1904; 30th June, 1905; 9th November, 1905; and 9th December, 1905. These lists appeared during the régime, of the last Tory Government, and the Leader of the Opposition was responsible for them. The next two lists were in December, 1905, and January, 1906, when the Liberal Party was apparently preparing for its attack on the House of Lords by adding ten Members to that Assembly. Then they had the lists of 29th January, 1906; 9th November, 1906; 28th January, 1907; and 9th November, 1907. He had omitted all reference to men who had been made members of the Orders of the Bath or the Garter or St. Michael and St. George or any other tom-fool order. He left out the usual baronetcy for the Lord Mayor of London and the two knighthoods to the sheriffs for entertaining foreign potentates at their own expense. From November, 1903, to December, 1905, the Tory Party were responsible for the creation of thirteen Peers, sixteen Privy Councillors, thirty-three Baronets and seventy-six Knights; a total of 128 in two years, of which number thirty-six, or 28·1 per cent., were Members of that House. From December, 1905, to November, 1907, two years of Liberal regime, twenty Peers were created, nineteen Privy Councillors, thirty-three Baronets and ninety-five Knights, total 167, of which thirty-seven, or 22·1 per cent., were Members of that House. It would be admitted on all sides to be a most lamentable thing were it recognised inside or outside that Chamber that men went into the House of Commons with any other object than to try to do their duty according to the pledges they gave to their constituents, and yet when one pondered over these figures one could not but think that social advancement was an ulterior motive with many. Mr. Gilbert K. Chesterton in a very ably-written newspaper article last year said that rich men paid into the party funds and were made Peers, whilst poor men were paid out of them and made slaves. A terser or better description of the accumulation and administration of the Party funds system could scarcely be given. He did not say that all who entered that House went there with a view to social advancement. That reproach could not be levelled against the Irish and the Lobour Parties with any degree of justice or fairness whatever. But however sincere a man might be when he first went there, however radical his views and ideals might be, there seemed to be in the atmosphere of that place a bacillus or germ, long exposure to which had a most deplorable effect. Whether that bacillus was imported by the Commissioner of Works from the Heralds' College in Queen Victoria Street, or not, he did not know. In support of that theory of his he proposed to tell the House a little story which had the merit of being perfectly true. For two years he had sat on a Committee, the chairman of which, in 1906, became a knight. At the next meeting of the Committee he noticed a sort of reflected pride in the faces of all of the Members, as they vied with one another in congratulating the chairman on his recent admission to the ranks of chivalry. But across the rippling stream of harmonious congratulations suddenly came a harsh discord. An hon. Member said—
That summarised his views so much that when it came to his turn he pitied and commiserated with the chairman on the disaster that had overtaken him in the later years of his life. But imagine his surprise when, eight months later, the man who struck the jarring note had himself become a subject for pity and commiseration."I am very sorry to have to strike a jarring note on this occasion, but you know my views on this kind of thing. I have often refused it myself before. I deem a man who accepts a knighthood rather a subject for pity and commiseration than congratulation."
May I ask whether he also was a Liberal Member of the House?
said he regretted to say that both these men posed as being Radicals. It was not only on that side of the House that some of them looked upon the sale and brokerage of titles and decorations as a disgrace to the House and the country that permitted them. In an article in the Saturday Review on 16th December, 1905, headed "The Adulteration of the Peerage" the editor said—
Then in relation to another peerage the editor went on in a very ably written article, which he (Mr. Lea) advised all hon. Members to read—"A peerage has just been conferred on Sir Herbert de Stern, who a year or two ago was made a baronet. When we remember that in 1895 Lord Rosebery created Lord Wandsworth, a near relative of Sir Herbert de Stern, we may well ask what are the claims of this family on the public, that within ten years two of its members should be given the right to sit and vote with the hereditary aristocracy of Great Britain. Out of sheer curiosity we want to know what services in court or in camp, in public or in private, have the De Sterns rendered to the British Empire, that two Prime Ministers of opposite Parties in the State should vie with one another in inviting them to take a seat among the aristocracy, the best, bravest and noblest that England can produce. Do Lord Wandsworth and Sir Herbert de Stern answer that description of aristocrats? Obviously not. Then why have they been made peers? The answer is 'money.'"
The editor concluded by saying—"With equal aversion, though of a somewhat different kind, we regard the peerage conferred on Sir Alfred Harmsworth, the founder and proprietor of Answers, Comic Cuts, the Daily Mail, the Daily Mirror, and a dozen other newspapers. The best way of describing our own feelings is by reporting what we gather to be the feelings of nine men out of ten, the majority of whom were either shocked or amused, according to their temperament, by the news that Sir Alfred Harmsworth was to be made a Peer."
If one of the leading Conservative papers could use language of that kind in criticism of peerages which their own Party had created, what must they think and say of that Party which had rightly started a campaign against the House of Lords, and very properly informed their supporters throughout the country that it was a danger to the Constitution and a menace to their liberties, and had yet during the last two years helped to fill its war-chest by making additions to that Chamber? Twenty peerages had been created by this Government during the last two years. He hoped sincerely every additional peerage they made would bring swiftly, Nemesis-like, in its train a by-election result like that in the Colne Valley, which showed what the electors thought of hypocrisy and political inconsistency. It might be asked why he had brought this matter up and what he hoped to get by pursuing it. His answer was a very simple one. When he entered that House he had certain democratic ideas which he still cherished, and he hoped, by bringing before the the House the meanness and absurdity of this traffic in titles and decorations, that the House would be moved to institute an inquiry into it all and put a stop to it. He was not a politician, and if to be a politician was to be inconsistent in one's policy, to disregard one's pledges to one's constituents, to obey blindly the behests of Party Whips and finally to leave the House with a title purchased by a big cheque and the sacrifice of one's innermost convictions, then he trusted he might always remain what he was, a very poor representative of his constituency he admitted, but at any rate, he claimed to be an honest one. The only possible excuse for these honours, so-called, was that they were given as a reward for meritorious service, but he frankly confessed he would sweep them away with as little compunction as a (sanitary inspector would display in removing an offensive nuisance. ["Oh."] By hawking them, however, in exchange for enormous cheques the Leaders of the two Parties and the Chief Whips were certainly degrading them and dishonouring those who received them for merit alone. His hon. friend was seeking by his Motion at any rate to elevate them to the only logical positon they could possibly occupy, and (because of that he sincerely hoped that all hon. Members would support the Motion."We cherish the belief that Mr. Balfour is not solely responsible for creations which cannot but lower one of the greatest of our institutions in the eyes of educated men. It is, however, in the power of the new peers to prove our criticism harsh. They may so amend their manners as to become indistinguishable from those amongst whom they have been promoted, and thus show that there is something in the old saying noblesse oblige."
said he had come to the conclusion, after listening carefully to the speech of the hon. Member who had just sat down, that in his estimate peers and peerages were, like faith, "the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." He would have no difficulty, if he so chose, in giving not fewer than 100 peerages whose patents were simply steeped in corruption. He would not do so, however, for there was no use in hurting people's feelings. He was not going to make a personal speech, although the temptation to do so was very great. Where was the brave Leader of the Opposition on this occasion? [An OPPOSITION MEMBER: Where is the Prime Minister?] He appeared to have fought as shy of this as he did of discussing tariff reform in the last Parliament. Upon such matters as these he had a great belief in the intelligence of the House. [Cries of "No."] He did not know whether they could or could not judge the present by the past, but he happened to know something of the way in which peerages in times past had been created. Every time a man was addressed as "My Lord," he must feel very uncomfortable when he reflected how some of the peerages had been got. He thought there would be a great advantage accruing from the publicity of Party funds. By way of illustration he would first of all begin with the Liberal Party. It was well known that the late Mr. Rhodes gave £5,000 to the Liberal funds, and, as was usual, it was not acknowledged. This fact was subsequently brought as a charge against the Liberal Party, and it was alleged that the correspondence on the subject was in existence. If that money had been given openly and above board how could such a suggestion have arisen? The very idea of secrecy in these matters was objectionable, and if people got money why should they not openly acknowledge it? After the lapse of eleven years a gentleman, who was almost as famous a supporter of the Union as Mr. Piggot, came prominently before the public. He referred to Mr. Terah Hooley. He was a pious man, and a friend to the Establishment, and he gave a communion service to St. Paul's Cathedral. His name was on every man's lips, in fact "Hooley, Hooley was the man." Hooley was not forgetful of the Party funds, and he sent his Party a cheque for £30,000. Now what became of that cheque? This was towards the end of the Jubilee celebration. Then came the revelations of 1898. [An OPPOSITION MEMBER: But they did not cash that cheque.] He was coming to that point. That cheque was sent back with a kind of Joseph-like chastity to Hooley when he was found out, and the result was that Hooley never got the baronetcy which was supposed to be the price of the cheque. Would it be believed that the secret service fund for that year was raised by £30,000 which was exactly the amount of the cheque sent back to Hooley? He thought in this matter he had been perfectly impartial for he had given an instance from both Parties. He thought himself that these honours might very well be sold openly and above board. Were it not that peers were hereditary legislators and had the power of supervising all the legislation of that House, he did not see why anybody should not buy a peerage who was fool enough to do so, provided the price were only regularly paid. But the sale and brokerage of honours was no new thing. The documents were still in existence in which the Lord-Lieutenant of the day founded the Order of the Knights of St. Patrick, whose jewels were now the subject of a mystery. For his part, if he were Chancellor of the Exchequer he would create new honours, and raise revenue by the sale of them. He would re-duplicate the Garter. He would give them Garters on both legs. He would import the honours possessed by the King of Siam, "Brother of the Moon," "Half-brother of the Sun," "Arbiter of the Rise and Fall of the Tides," "Possessor of twenty-four Golden Umbrellas." What a gold mine was here for the Chancellor of the Exchequer ! The foundation of all this craze for honours was that men were ashamed to be humble and poor. The saying of John Bright, spoken in the middle of the nineteenth century, that the purest Member of Parliament was Andrew Marvell, who was not ashamed to take wages from his constituency and thereby was able to resist the corrupters, was worth recalling; and that great statesman went on to declare that when men without titles and without property qualifications sat in the House it would then truly become what Edmund Burke said it was—
"The true reflex, the express image, of the feelings of the nation."
moved to amend the Resolution by inserting after the word "administered" the following: "Especially the way in which large sums, derived from the secret funds of the Tariff Reform League and other similar societies, are spent in electoral contests without being returned in the candidates' expenses." He said the Amendment was not framed to divert attention from the Resolution moved by his hon. friend, but rather to direct it to some particular, and he thought, important illustrations of what the Resolution sought in general terms to condemn. He thought it was desirable that he should call the attention of the House for a few moments to the provisions of the Act of Parliament whose operation was frequently avoided through the instrumentality of bodies like the Tariff Reform League. By the Corrupt Practices Act of 1883 it was provided that any candidate who made payment to any agent or servant, excepting those expressly mentioned in the statute, was guilty of an illegal act which carried with it, as its consequences, the deprivation of his seat if he was elected, in some cases his disqualification from sitting as a Member of Parliament for seven years, and his punishment with a fine of £100 if the act was brought home to his knowledge. There was no doubt that that statute had done great service in curtailing the most reckless expense that used to be incurred at elections in the olden times. It had been of great service in securing more honest representation than before, but no one who had followed political events closely could fail to see that its whole purpose was avoided, and that its terms were entirely circumvented, by the action which political organisations took on behalf of a candidate, which he was wholly unable to do for himself. The Tariff Reform League was the best illustration which he could find of such an organisation as he referred to, and yet it was difficult to know whether it was right to describe it as a political organisation at all, for to this moment the question whether the Tariff Reform League had swallowed the Party opposite or the Party opposite had swallowed the Tariff Reform League, was a matter of considerable doubt. So also was the question of its construction. It was a strange body composed so far as he could see of free traders who had lost their faith, and Protectionists who had found their opportunity. The original purpose for which it was constructed was professed to be the creation of a scientific tariff.
Is the hon. Member in order in discussing the question of scientific tariffs on the Amendment now before the House? I beg to call your attention to the Amendment.
The Amendment which the hon. Member is moving makes specific reference to the Tariff Reform League. I think, therefore, he is in order in discussing the objects of the league within reasonable limits.
said that if his hon. friend would have a little patience he would find that his observations were strictly in order and strictly relevant to the Amendment. He was going to point out what the original purpose of the league was, and what its actual operations consisted of. So far as he could understand, its original purpose was the creation of a scientific tariff. Hon. Members on that side of the House at least might be pardoned if they found it difficult to know what a scientific tariff might be. He rather gathered that it was meant to be a tariff which would afford satisfaction to the legitimate commercial aspirations of the members of the league, and at the same time, it might be incidentally, avoid ruin to British trade. It was not surprising that the difficulty of constructing such a tariff soon proved too much for the intellectual energies of the League, and they devoted themselves to a more congenial occupation. If there was a Conservative candidate able to lisp their shibboleth and who would subscribe to their fund, he could have the Tariff Reform League at his disposal. No sooner did the electoral contest begin than some shop-front was blazoned with the legends of the league, and pamphlets issued promising cure for all the ills of the body politic by acceptance of the principles of the League. But the matter did not end there. Hired agents beat with impartial foot at every door, and paid canvassers solicited votes nominally on behalf of the league, but in reality on behalf of the candidate. They all knew the process. The paid canvasser went round and asked each elector what his particular trouble might be. Was he suffering because the price of bread was high? Tariff reform would at once cure all that. Was he suffering from the yet harder pinch, a lack of work? Tariff reform would provide him immediately with constant employment. Was he, as a small trader, suffering from acute competition? Tariff reform would instantly remove his difficulties. The only thing that stood in the way of tariff reform—and here he agreed with the canvasser—was the Liberal Party; and as soon as the destruction of the Liberal Party was secured, the way to his blessed and promised relief was open and plain. [OPPOSITION cheers.] It was not often that they had the advantage of having such preposterous doctrines approved of on the floor of the House. It was not often that hon. Members opposite were sufficiently candid to own that the people who were canvassing on their behalf made the price of provisions low or high according to the complexion of the persons from whom he asked their votes, and that all the electors had to do was to secure the return of a Conservative candidate, and all these promised blessings would instantly flow. But the real mischief lay in the fact that if these things had been done by the candidate himself, he would have been declared to have been guilty of illegal practices and his election would have been instantly declared to be void. But, in fact, there was not less illegality when these things were done under the cover and shadow of a body really acting as his agents. Whenever there was a debate in the House on tariff reform, they had a somewhat elusive and etherealised essence of the doctrine with which the late Prime Minister used at once to soothe the impatience of his followers, and to charm the sense of humour in the House. But in the constituencies a very different propaganda was carried on. Pamphlets were distributed, containing promises on one and the same page, that tariff reform would increase employment, raise wages, lower the cost of living, keep out foreign manufactures, and, at the same time, another pamphlet issued and circulated by the same hand asked in these words—
He was bound to say that he was amazed [OPPOSITION ironical laughter]—or he might have been amazed—to think that anyone could justify the language of such a document, as that—"Does the working man intend to allow his better self, and his intelligence to be beguiled and befooled by false representations put forth for party purposes by unscrupulous persons simply in the hope of self-aggrandisement?"
He would have thought that hon. Members opposite would have been anxious to repudiate language of that description, would have been anxious to say that that was not the means by which their elections were influenced, and by which they owed their position in this House. But as he understood they accepted and adopted those tactics, which pointed to the party character of the acts done and were in fact, if not in the letter, violations of the Corrupt Practices Act of 1883. Further, they knew that a Licensing Bill would shortly be introduced into the House, and the mere fact that it was going to be introduced, without any knowledge as to what its contents were to be, caused the wealthy brewing interest to become an organised body opposing the Liberal Party. But did anyone suppose that the use of the large funds at the disposal of what was euphemistically called "the trade" was confined to the issue of illustrated pamphlets and pictorial placards depicting clergymen of the Church of England, soldiers, drooping widows and little children gathered together under a banner which bore the inscription: "Bee" expanded into the word "Debenture"? They knew well that no election would be fought from now until the time when they again sought the confidence of the country, at which every public-house would not be made a committee room against them, in which the wealth of the brewers, subscribed in secret, which they could not trace, would be used against them by means which, if used on behalf of the candidate would most certainly be an illegal and in all probability a corrupt practice under the Act of 1883. He knew it would be said that they had similar organisations which might be guilty of a similar offence. It was said that there was an organisation which supported the Liberal Party—the Free Trade Union. But then its subscription list was always open. It was not possible for a man to go down on the eve of an election and make a large subscription to the Free Trade Union and have the fact concealed. And, remember, this concealment was of the utmost importance in the consideration of the case. If they found on the eve of an election a man made a payment to the funds of such a body as the Tariff Reform League, and then immediately after that the Tariff Reform League blossomed into activity in his division, and that these practices were pursued throughout the election it would not be hard for a Judge to find that in point of fact though the Tariff Reform League were posing as an independent party, they were in reality the agents of the candidates whose cause they pleaded. But even if it were suggested that they on the Liberal side were affected by the same trouble, he was not concerned to argue this matter from a party point of view. Let them admit at once that there were unworthy motives placed before the electors on both sides in electoral contests. Let them admit that there was base coin in circulation in political controversy. Surely all Members of the House should be glad to join in taking steps by which the currency might be cleansed. This was a matter which affected not one party or another only. It went far deeper, and affected the welfare of the State. Was there anyone in the House who thought that if an elector had been cajoled or coerced or corrupted into giving his vote, he remained an honest, self-respecting citizen? Everybody knew that he at once depised the man who had influenced him and the cause in whose behalf he had been negotiated. He was convinced that many poor people in the country had foresworn their allegience to either one or other of the great parties in the State, because they realised, or thought that they realised, that after all in supporting them they were once more supporting the privileges they sought to destroy. He himself had no sympathy with the views of the hon. Members sitting immediately opposite to him (the Labour Party); but he recognised that their strength lay in the very fact that, by reason of such means as he had mentioned, the electorate had day by day been losing confidence in the great and the wealthy parties in the State—parties that they believed no longer shared their views, no longer were able to realise their hopes, and no longer were able to give effect to their aspirations in this House. He felt that they owed a great debt of gratitude to those hon. Members, not for the views they expressed, but because they had taught men that it was possible to legislate without the inheritance of great estates or the possession of great names. They had done more. They had attempted by direct appeal to the electorate, and not by indirect and stealthy and unlawful means, to awaken their interests in political affairs. He believed the future of either of the great parties in the State depended on which of them would be able to direct and to guide and govern those awakened aims. It was impossible for anyone to look far forward into the darkness which always hid the future. But, unless the lessons that other States had taught were void of meaning, it was in the unlawful use and the stealthy use of wealth in influencing the decision of the electors that they had at once the greatest menace to society and the greatest danger to modern civilisation. He begged to move."Put forth for party purposes by unscrupulous persons simply in the hope of self-aggrandisement."
in seconding the Amendment, said that after the very able and eloquent speech to which they had just had the pleasure of listening, he felt that very few words were necessary from him. The hon. Member for Cambridge had raised a question of the gravest importance and had advocated it in such a manner that he thought the whole House must be in favour of his proposal. What it meant was that if our present practice in these matters continued it would practically put an end to the statutory limitations of amounts which, under the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Act, could be expended on elections. He was present at the Mid Devon election, and it might interest the House if he told them the names of the various leagues and societies which took part in it. There were the Primrose League, the Tariff Reform League, the Rural Labourers' League, and whether or not the Unionist Free Trade League was present he was not quite sure. He was afraid that league was a little wobbley on that occasion. There were also the Association for the protection of "the trade," otherwise known as the Brewers' League, the Protestant League, the Free Trade League, the Socialist League, and not less than two of the women's leagues, whose names he did not know. At any rate, he believed that two woman suffragist leagues were working during that election. A well-know Parliamentary agent who was present during that election told him that over and above the legitimate expenses of the candidates, these leagues amongst them must have expended no less than £1,500. He thought that that kind of extra expense was not good for the purity of elections, and he was sure that every Member would fed that, on whichever side of the House he sat. He hoped the Solicitor-General was preparing the Bill which they had been told was to be introduced on this subject by the Government, and he sincerely trusted that the hon. Gentlemen would turn his attention to this branch of the question. He begged to second.
Amendment proposed—
"In line 2, after the word 'administered,' to insert the words 'especially the way in which large sums, derived from the secret funds of the Tariff Reform League and other similar societies, are spent in electoral contests without being returned in the candidates 'expenses.'"—(Mr. Buckmaster).
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
said he had had the pleasure of listening to the hon. Member for Cambridge on more than one occasion, and although unfortunately, the hon. Member differed from him in politics, he had never listened to his speeches without feeing that he brought to bear a large mass of information and singularly clear ability in endeavouring to] put before the House the views which he was quite certain he sincerely held. On this occasion he must apologise to the hon. Member for saying that he could not congratulate him upon his speech. In the first place, he believed it was entirely out of order, because the Motion was to call in question the use of political funds in a way which they knew perfectly well in this House. What was the meaning of the words "political funds"? It meant money that was given to one of the two great Parties in the State, either the Liberal or the Conservative Party, and had nothing to do with the Tariff Reform League, any more than it had to do with the Suffragist League, the trade unions, or the Irish National League.
He said nothing about us.
said that the hon. and learned Member who moved the Amendment alluded to the very large amount of money which he said had been expended by, or was in the possession of, the Tariff Reform League. As far as he knew the Tariff Reform League was rather desirous of obtaining money. He believed that the Engineers' Trade Union had funds amounting to £300,000. [A LABOUR MEMBER: £800,000.] Well, £800,000. He did not wish to exaggerate. At any rate, it was far richer than the Tariff Reform League. He did not complain of hon. Members below the Gangway, when they used the funds of the Engineers' Society in defence of the objects of that body, and for purposes which they believed to be proper subjects of political warfare. Why did not the hon. Gentleman attack the Engineers' Fund or call attention to the way in which it was administered.
The balance sheets are published year by year.
said that the Tariff Reform League balance sheets were also published year by year, and he believed that the hon. Member could see a balance sheet of the Tariff Reform League by giving a sovereign to the funds of that league. He need not continue the subscription, and a sovereign was not much to pay for the information he desired.
rose to a point of order. He said his Motion concerned the secrecy with which these funds were accumulated and administered, and that alone. That being so, surely the remarks of the hon. Member were out of order.
did not reply to the point raised.
said he had already ventured to say that the Amendment was out of order, but as it was before them he maintained that he had a right to answer the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He suggested to the hon. Member that he should subscribe to the Tariff Reform League. Then he would find out whether anything was done by that league against the law, and if he thought they had done wrong he could bring an action against them. That would be a much simpler way of proceeding than discussing the matter in that House. It seemed to him that the Party opposite had got Tariff Reform League on the brain. A short time ago those of them who belonged to the Tariff Reform League were held up to ridicule, and when he was Member for Peckham he was told by the Radical Press that at last the Lord had delivered him into the hands of his enemies. Perhaps He had for the moment, but he was not sure whether in the long run, it was not a greater service to him than anything else that could happen. That was the view which hon. Members took then, and it was quite different from that which they adopted now, because the whole of their speeches were directed against the efforts of the Tariff Reform League.
May I press Mr. Speaker for your ruling on this matter? Is it not the secrecy of these funds which is under discussion, and have the remarks of the present speaker anything to do with the question of secrecy?
I do not see that the hon. Baronet is violating the rules of the House in any way. I must say that I had grave doubts whether the Amendment was in order, but I was persuaded by the hon. Member for Cambridge that it was in order, and as he has started that hare we must hunt it.
With the greatest deference to your ruling, is not the Amendment also directed against the secret funds of the Tariff Reform League?
Be quiet. He is going to tell us something about the funds of the Tariff Reform League.
said he could quite understand that the hon. Member did not like the turn which the debate had taken, and for once in his life he had made a mistake. He ought to have listened to the Amendment of the hon. Member which referred to the affairs of the Tariff Reform League and then have taken his objection. The way the funds of that league were administered had nothing to do with the House any more than the way in which the trade unions or the Engineers' or the Suffragist League administered their funds had. He supposed it would not be in order for him to refer to the orinigal Motion. He had had a good many years experience in the House, and to the best of his poor ability had always endeavoured not to contravene its rules. He would like, however, to have an opportunity of speaking on the original Resolution, and he would suggest that the Hon. Member should withdraw his Amendment so that it would be in order to discuss the original Motion. He only rose to call the attention of the House to the effort of the hon. and learned Member to draw a red herring across the path, because he could not believe that one whom he regarded as being among the ablest Members of the House could have made the speech he had if he had not some ulterior motive. He hoped the few words he had said would convince the hon. and learned Gentleman that the best thing he could do to retrieve his reputation would be to withdraw his Amendment.
said it was quite true that the Tariff Reform League was a red herring drawn across their path, and he was glad to have the metaphor recognised by one of the exponents of that policy; but the hon. Baronet was somewhat in error when he said that they had tariff reform on the brain, because that was the very last place where they would find tariff reform.
I beg to correct the hon. Member. I said that tariff reform was on the brain of the Party opposite.
agreed. He would never have thought of suggesting that there was any brain on the other side of the House. He had risen for the purpose not of discussing tariff reform, because, although it might enter into that debate, it was not the subject-matter before the House. Although he was a poor man he was disposed to pay a sovereign subscription to the Tariff Reform League if he could get the information offered. Did the hon. Baronet say that by the payment of one sovereign he could have a list of the individual subscribers to that fund?
No, only a balance sheet.
said that that was poor information for the money. How ridiculous it was to compare that information with the information given by the trade unions. If the election expenses of by-elections were prepared properly, they ought to show how much was spent by the Tariff Reform League.
expressed regret that he had not been present earlier in the debate, but he had been informed that the hon. Member for East St. Pancras had referred to him by innuendo—the hon. Member not having the honesty to speak outright had indulged in innuendo. The innuendo had been reported to him, and now, at the eleventh hour, and when challenged, the hon. Member for St. Pancras had had the courage to acknowledge that his previous remarks referred to him. He could not find language to speak of the hon. Member's statement in more moderate terms, but the hon. Member would know what he meant when he said that he gave his statement a denial of the most absolute character.
rose in his place, but Sir Randal Cremer refused to give way.
said the hon. Member had had his innings. It was now for him to say that there was not a shadow of truth in the hon. Member's statement. The hon. Member made a similar statement in a daily newspaper in July last. That statement was submitted to the chairman of the Kitchen Committee of the House of Commons. The chairman of the Kitchen Committee agreed that there was no foundation in fact for the hon. Member's statement, and that he (Sir Randal Cremer) had used no insulting language in Committee on the occasion in question. He did not say to the chairman of the Kitchen Committee anything of a slanderous character on the occasion. He had been a member of the House of Commons for twenty-two years and this was the first time he had been charged, and upon such authority. He was sorry the chairman of the Kitchen Committee was not present to justify him and to confirm him in the statement he was now making that there was not the shadow of foundation for the statement made by the hon. Member for St. Pancras.
said he had listened to what the hon. Member behind him had just said, and he must frankly say that his own opinion of it was that it was concentrated humbug.
Do I understand the hon. Member to apply that expression to the hon. Member for Haggerston?
I applied the expression to the speech which the hon. Member has just made.
It is not a proper expression to be applied in this House to the speech of any hon. Member. The hon. Member will at once withdraw the expression.
said that in deference to the Speaker's ruling and with great respect he begged to withdraw the expression. When he made the statement with regard to the incident which, occurred in the Committee he spoke the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. There were men in that House whom he could cross-examine under oath to prove the truth of every word. He did not think he ever wrote to the Daily Chronicle; but he believed he wrote to The Times. The words he had used that night he wrote in that letter some months ago. Every word of that statement he was prepared to swear to on oath. It could be proved. If it could be proved before the Committee that he had told an untruth in the matter he would at once resign his seat.
said he could only by the indulgence of the House ask permission to postpone the question until the chairman of the Kitchen Committee was present. The chairman of the Kitchen Committee would testify to the accuracy of the statement he had made, and repudiate the charge which had been brought against him.
Since the debate began, and until the small and unimportant incident which has just occurred, there was ample good-humour throughout almost the whole of the discussion. We have had most interesting speeches on two questions rather diverse. The first question was with regard to the secrecy of the accumulation and administration of Party political funds and the other interesting topic ingeniously grafted upon that, of the administration, particularly at election times, of certain funds of certain leagues. Upon this occasion I am not going to say anything about the Tariff Reform League or any other particular league or association which may be comprised in the Amendment, I do not desire to introduce anything which may cause bitterness on either side of the House. The foundation of the speech of my hon. friend who moved, was that, in his opinion, Party political funds were an absolute necessity in this country. He boldly said, and everybody admired him for it, that he himself had benefited from these funds. If in that way we have men returned to the House of the calibre and character of my hon. friend, I think he is right in what he said, that political funds, if not a necessity, have a useful and healthy function in this country. One thing must have delighted everybody, and that is that it has never been suggested from beginning to end that the receipt of any portion of these funds has influenced the vote of a single Member in the slightest degree. I do not know whether it is necessary to state my own view with regard to the secret administration of the funds. I am not speaking as a member of the Government or on behalf of the Government; this is not a Motion directed against the Government; the qualification which I possess for speaking with reference to these funds is that I know nothing at all about them. I think I did apply when I was a green youth eighteen years ago before I came to the House, to the Party to see whether or not they might give some assistance to a poor but, as I thought, a humble deserving object. I had already been chosen unanimously by the constituency which has returned me ever since, to be their candidate, and the answer I got from those to whom I addressed my communication was that as the constituency had taken the choice of their own candidate into their own hands the Party funds had no play in the matter at all. I have never contributed and have never received, and that is my only qualification for speaking on this occasion. But, seriously, I think there is a difficulty in this House of Commons passing a Resolution that no domestic arrangements ought to be made by any Parties in the House or in the country with reference to such matters unless they are published in the light of day to the whole world. There will, I am certain, be great danger and great peril arising from passing a Resolution of that kind. With regard to the Amendment, I am entirely in accord with my hon. and learned friend with regard to the advisability of having in this country as far as possible perfect purity in electoral contests. There is purity in this House and no one will say that there has been a suggestion of any want of political purity on the part of the humblest Member of this House. I might almost go further and say the poorer the man is the less does anybody suspect his purity; but it has struck a great many in this House that electoral contests are open to the possibility of becoming influenced more and more by the wealth of great persons and associations. There is a tendency to revert to the huge expenditure upon elections which took place before the Corrupt Practices Act. It may be that an Amendment in the law in this direction is required and if the House passed a Resolution in the terms of the Amendment we shall have to do our best, if we cannot punish that state of things under the Corrupt Practices Act, to ensure electoral purity by strengthening the law in that respect. But we have much in our hands already to do, and if I, speaking as a Member of the House of Commons, may be allowed humbly to offer a piece of advice, it would be that the Amendment should be withdrawn if the mover withdraws his Motion. If not, I will declare what I am going to do and what I think many right hon. and hon. friends on this side will do; if my hon. friend who moved the Resolution persists in going to a division, then we cannot vote for that without the Amendment being tacked on to it. Therefore, if he will not withdraw the Motion, I hope the hon. Member will not withdraw his Amendment either.
said it was a very extraordinary defence when the Solicitor-General told them this was not a Government question. There was no charge whatever made in that House, at all events he did not identify himself with the charge, directly or indirectly, against the personal honour of any Member of either Front Bench. It was purely against the system, and he deeply regretted the tone of levity which had characterised the debate. Outside the House at all events the country felt very deeply on this question. The simple question that the country asked was this. Were they living in an age in which titles were bought and sold for money, and was any party in the State privy to that proceeding? It would be ludicrous for any of them not to be fully aware that such a state of affairs existed. He maintained that it was a grave danger to the State that large funds should be placed in the hands of one man only to administer. When the country was made aware that peerages carrying with them legislative powers were openly sold, and that such honours were being bought for considerations of hard cash they would be inclined to resolve that the hereditary rights of legislators should be curtailed. The whole system was indefensible from beginning to end. It was a grave danger to the State that large funds should be in the hands of one man. An easy remedy was open to the Government—namely, forthwith to throw all election expenses on national funds. Every rich man in the House became a peer, a baronet, or a knight. ["Why are not you one? "] He was too poor for that. [" Oh, oh."] These men got their titles because they gave large sums to the party funds, and it cast a stigma on the large number of worthy men who had done good service to the country to classify all of them with the men who openly bought their honours. He maintained that the Amendment was not an honest Amendment, but was designed to shelve the question and to baulk discussion. Why should the hon. Member single out one league and not mention the other societies? Why should he not mention the Free Trade League as, well? He hoped that the hon. Member's constituents would bear this action in mind ["Oh, oh !"] and if they did not he would make it his business to go among them and tell them.
said the last speaker had opened his eyes to a large extent to the bitterness of feeling that seemed to exist on the benches opposite when one differed from another on a matter of this sort. He wished to direct attention to a subject which had been neglected by hon. Members, who had taken part in the discussion. The Amendment referred to "the secret funds of the Tariff Reform League" and the original Motion referred to the privileges and character of the House as being imperilled by the secrecy with which political funds were administered. Hon. Members, no matter what constituencies they represented, knew nothing whatever of what was going on in secrecy. If there was secrecy, he held that the House had nothing to do with it. How could the House interest itself for a moment in the contests which took place in the various constituencies. He wished to dissociate himself from party in this matter. He believed that Ireland was freer from secrecy in connection with its political organisations than perhaps any other part of the United Kingdom. They had branches of the United Irish League in the south, and Orange societies in the north, but in regard to finance they were not at all strong. This Amendment referred just as much to the funds of the United Irish League and the Orange societies as to the funds of the Tariff Reform League. He had the honour to belong to the Orange body and the Tariff Reform League, and he was proud of it. The Amendment was absolutely futile if it was meant to prevent organisations being formed for the purpose of securing a representative of a particular interest in a particular constituency. In his own particular case he fought his election on tariff reform lines. [A NATIONALIST MEMBER: And against Home Rule.] What were the facts? There was not a Member representing an Ulster constituency who, he could safely say, had been offered directly or indirectly assistance by the Tariff Reform League, Free Food Union, Irish Land League, or any other association, to return them to the House of Commons. He thought the speeches which had fallen from hon. Members opposite had been greatly exaggerated. He did not believe that hon. Members were influenced in the slightest degree by the Tariff Reform League in their action in this House or their allegiance to their party. He admitted that some hon. Members might be more interested in the Amendment than in the original Motion, because they thought that behind what appeared on the Paper a very direct attack would be made on the Tariff Reform League, but he believed that it would have no effect whatever on that magnificent organisation which was doing so much for the country. The seconder of the Amendment had tabulated a large number of organisations which he said had interfered in the Mid-Devon election. No Member who had gone through a serious contest such as that could have failed to discover that small knots of interested people formed themselves into what they called a society and did their utmost to return a candidate of their choice. Was it to be assumed for one moment that if cither the Resolution or the Amendment were passed by the House, those who were interested in votes for women would cease to form themselves into what they considered a fair organisation, with the necessary means at their back, to enforce their views on the candidates in any constituency? Was it to be suggested for a moment that those who were earnestly in favour of temperance reform would cease to form themselves into organisations to urge their views upon the two or perhaps it might be three candidates in an electoral contest? Or was it to be expected that a particular class, say railway employees, which combined against another class of employees such as engineers, would be prevented by any such Resolution or Amendment as was before the House from forming themselves into a society to forward their opinions and lay them before Parliamentary candidates? No candidate could, in his opinion, be harmed by any associations of the kind which could be formed. If he was in order he would ask permission to move to amend the Amendment.
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"; but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
continuing his speech, moved to amend the Amendment by the insertion, after the word "funds," of the words "at the disposal of the Liberal Party or."
in seconding the Amendment, said he would only make a few observations, as he hoped the House would come to a decision on this matter, and would not allow the question to be talked out. Everybody knew perfectly well that at elections much of the propaganda used, and a good deal of the funds which were spent, did not come from the electors,
AYES
| ||
| Aclad-Hood, Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. F | Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Avers- | Morpeth, Viscount |
| Balcarres, Lord | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Nield, Herbert |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan | O'Grady, J. |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) | Fell, Arthur | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Forster, Henry William | Richards, T. F. (Wolperh'mpt'n |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Guinness, Walter Edward | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hamilton, Marquess of | Seddon, J. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton |
| Cave, George | Hay, Hon. Claude George | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W. | Helmsley, Viscount | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Keswick, William | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham | Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Captain Craig and Sir Frederick Banbury. |
| Curran, Peter Francis | McArthur, Charles | |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Markham, Arthur Basil | |
NOES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Bennett, E. N. | Compton-Rickett, Sir J. |
| Agnew, George William | Bottomley, Horatio | Corbett, C H (Sussex, E. Grinst'd |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Boulton, A. C. F. | Cotton, Sir H. J. S. |
| Alden, Percy | Brace, William | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christehurch) | Bramsdon, T. A. | Cremer, Sir William Randal |
| Astbury, John Meir | Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Dalziel, James Henry |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Ches. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) | Byles, William Pollard | Duckworth, James |
| Barker, John | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Causton, Rt. Hn. Richard Knight | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Barnard, E. B. | Chance, Frederick William | Elibank, Waster of |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Bell, Richard | Clough, William | Evans, Sir Samuel T. |
but from the funds of various parties. He ventured to say that no party was innocent in that connection, and it was time that they seriously took the subject into their consideration and dealt with the matter radically, so that they might prevent the transfer of seats being effected by money raised in this manner He begged to second.
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"In line 2, after the word "funds," to insert the words "at the disposal of the Liberal Party or."—(Captain J. Craig.)
Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
The House divided:—Ayes, 53: Noes, 153. (Division List No. 15.)
| Everett, R. Lacey | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne |
| Fenwick, Charles | Lough, Thomas | Seely, Colonel |
| Ferens, T. R. | Lyell, Charles Henry | Shackleton, David James |
| Findlay, Alexander | Lynch, H. B. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) |
| Fuller, John Michael F. | Maclean, Donald | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
| Fullerton, Hugh | Macnamara, Dr. Th mas J. | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Glendinning, R. G. | M'Crae, George | Snowden, P. |
| Glover, Thomas | M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Soares, Ernest J. |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Gulland, John W. | M'Micking, Major G. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs. N. W.) |
| Hall, Frederick | Maddison, Frederick | Straus, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Marnham, F. J. | Summerbell, T. |
| Haworth, Arthur A. | Masterman, C. F. G. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Micklem, Nathaniel | Verney, F. W. |
| Hemmerde, Edward George | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Vivian, Henry |
| Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wadsworth, J. |
| Higham, John Sharp | Murray, James | Walsh, Stephen |
| Hodge, John | Nicholls, George | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent |
| Holf, Richard Dinning | Nicholson, Chas. N. (Doncast'r | Wardle, George J. |
| Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N | Norton, Capt. Cecil William | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Horniman, Emslie John | Nussey, Thomas Willans | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan |
| Hudson, Walter | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Idris, T. H. W. | Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Johnson, John (Gateshead) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Whiteley, Rt. Hn. G. (York. W. R |
| Jones, Leif (Appleby) | Pollard, Dr. | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshre | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Kekewich, Sir George | Rea, Russell (Gloucester) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Kelley, George D. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| King, Alfred John (Knutsford) | Rendall, Athelstan | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Laidlaw, Robert | Richards, Thomas (W. Monmth | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Lamont, Norman | Ridsdale, E. A. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Layland-Barratt, Francis | Robinson, S. | |
| Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E. | Robson, Sir William Snowden | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Belloc and Mr. Edmund Lamb. |
| Lehmann, R. C | Rogers, F. L. Newman | |
| Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich | Rose, Charles Day | |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Rowlands, J. | |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland) |
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
AYES.
| ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Clynes, J. R. | Haworth, Arthur A. |
| Agnew, George William | Compton-Rickett, Sir J. | Helme, Norvol Watson |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Corbett, CH (Sussex, E. Grinst'd | Hemmerde, Edward George |
| Alden, Percy | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) | Cremer, Sir William Randal | Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) |
| Astbury, John Meir | Curran, Peter Francis | Higham, John Sharp |
| Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) | Dalziel, James Henry | Holt, Hichard Durning |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E. | Davies, Timothy (Fulham) | Horniman, Emslie John |
| Balfour, Robert (Lanark) | Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight | Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N | Idris, T. H. W. |
| Barker, John | Duckworth, James | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Barnard, E. B. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness | Johnson, John (Gateshead) |
| Beaumont, Hon. Hubert | Edwards, Clement (Denbigh) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire |
| Bell, Richard | Elibank, Master of | Kekewich, Sir George |
| Bennett, E. N. | Evans, Sir Samuel T. | Kelley, George D. |
| Boulton, A. C. F. | Everett, R. Lacey | King, Alfred John (Knutsford) |
| Brace, William | Fenwick, Charles | Laidlaw, Robert |
| Bramsdon, T. A. | Ferens, T. R. | Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster |
| Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) | Findlay, Alexander | Lamont, Norman |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Fuller, John Michael F. | Layland-Barratt, Francis |
| Byles, William Pollard | Fullerton, Hugh | Lehmann, R. C. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Glendinning, R. G. | Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich |
| Chance, Frederick William | Griffith, Ellis J. | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Gulland, John W. | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Clough, William | Hall, Frederick | Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David |
The House divided:—Ayes, 134: Noes, 60. (Division List No. 16.)
| Lough, Thomas | Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk. Eye | Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden) | Snowden, P. |
| Lynch, H. B. | Pirie, Duncan V. | Spicer, Sir Albert |
| Maclean, Donald | Pollard, Dr. | Strauss, B. S. (Mile End) |
| Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. | Price, C. E. (Edinb'gh, Central | Verney, F. W. |
| M'Crae, George | Real, Russell (Gloucester) | Vivian, Henry |
| M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro' | Wadsworth, J. |
| M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) | Rees, J. D. | Ward, John (Stoke upon Trent) |
| M'Micking, Major G. | Richards, Thomas (W. Monm'th | Wason, Rt. Hn. E. (Clackmannan |
| Maddison, Frederick | Richards, T. F. (Wolverh'mpt'n | Watt, Henry A. |
| Marnham, F. J. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | White, Luke (York, E. R.) |
| Masterman, C. F. G. | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | Whiteley, Rt Hn. G. (York W. R. |
| Micklem, Nathaniel | Robson, Sir William Snowdon | Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Rogers, F. E. Newman | Wiles, Thomas |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Rose, Charles Day | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Murray, James | Rowlands, J. | Wilson, J. H. (Middlesbrough) |
| Nicholls, George | Scott, A. H. (Ashton under Lyne | Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) |
| Nicholson, Chas, N. (Doncast'r | Seddon, J. | |
| Norton, Cant. Cecil William | Seely, Colonel | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Buckmaster and Mr. Soares. |
| O'Grady, J. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. T. (Hawick B.) | |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) | Shipman, Dr. John G. |
NOES.
| ||
| Acland-Hood. Rt. Hn. Sir Alex. | Forster, Henry William | Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) | Shackleton, David James |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Glover, Thomas | Summerbell, T. |
| Barlow, Percy (Bedford) | Guinness, Walter Edward | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ |
| Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry. N. | Hamilton, Marquess of | Taylor, John W (Durham) |
| Beach, Hn. Michael Hugh Hicks | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hodge, John | Valentia, Viscount |
| Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. | Hope, W. Bateman (Somerset, N | Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Houston, Robert Paterson | Walsh, Stephen |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hudson, Walter | Wardle, George J. |
| Carlile, E. Hildred | Jowett, F. W. | Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Cave, George | Keswick, William | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Cavendish, Rt. Hn. Victor C. W | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- | Lonsdale, John Brownlee | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Coates, E. Feetham (Lewisham) | M'Arthur, Charles | Wortley, Rt. Hon C. B Stuart- |
| Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) | Markham, Arthur Basil | Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George |
| Courthope, G. Loyd | Nield, Herbert | |
| Craig, Captain James (Down. E. | Nussey, Thomas Willans | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Viscount Morpeth and Mr. Claude Hay. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Rendall, Athelstan | |
| Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan | Ridsdale, E. A. | |
| Fell, Arthur | Robinson, S. | |
Main Question, as amended, proposed.
rose to continue the discussion on the main Question.
And, it being after Eleven of the Clock, and objection being taken to further proceeding, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to interrupt the Business.
Whereupon Colonel SEELY rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"; but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question, and the Debate stood adjourned.
gave notice of a Motion to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule To-morrow (Thursday),
Adjourned at seventeen minutes-after Eleven o'clock.