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Commons Chamber

Volume 2: debated on Tuesday 9 March 1909

House of Commons

Tuesday, March 9, 1909

Private Bill

The following Bill was read a second time:—

Gas Light and Coke Company Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Military Attaches

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether officers of the Indian Army are eligible for the post of military attache; and, if so, whether he will consider the propriety of more frequently enlisting the services of such officers who have acquired special proficiency in the languages in use at the Courts of the great Powers to which military attaches are appointed?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. At the present moment the attaches at Sofia, Tehran, and Peking all belong to the Indian Army. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, as a general rule, appoints the officer who is nominated by the Secretary of State for War. In the selection of an officer due weight is attached, I understand, to the possession by him of the special qualifications required for the particular post, one of which is, of course, a knowledge of the language of the country or countries in which his duties will lie.

Bosnia and Herzegovina (European Conference)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken towards bringing about the assembly of a European Conference to deal with the situation created by the annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina; and whether he is now in a position to state approximately when the Conference may be expected to assemble?

Communications have constantly been passing between the Powers with the object of promoting a general settlement; but, as the interests of other Powers are intimately concerned, I cannot at present make any further statement. Negotiations are not sufficiently advanced for me to be able to say when a Conference is likely to meet.

Fakumen Railway

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information regarding the present position of the Fakumen Railway question?

I have not yet heard of any Agreement having been arrived at on the subject between China and Japan.

His Majesty's Visit to Paris

asked whether, during his stay in Paris, King Edward will have a meeting with M. Pichon, the French Minister of Foreign Affairs; and, if so, will the King be accompanied on this visit by a Minister of the Crown; and by whom will any conversations or exchanges of views which may take place on the occasion of the King's visit and which have any official character be reported and recorded at the Foreign Office?

His Majesty is travelling incognito. Any conversation, therefore, which His Majesty may have during his stay in Paris will not have any official or political character.

Had the conversations that His Majesty had on his tour in Germany and Russia any official character; and, if so, why was he not accompanied by a Minister of the Crown responsible to this House?

All official business is transacted in a constitutional way through the King's Ministers.

I beg to give notice that on the first occasion I will direct attention to the advice given by the Foreign Minister to the King to go abroad without a Minister of the Crown responsible to this House for the King's transactions in international politics.

State Forests (France and Germany)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can obtain information as to the annual percentage of profit on the State forests of France and Germany respectively?

I will make inquiries, but I doubt if it will be practicable to get the precise information asked for. We are dependent on the official information published by other countries, and I will obtain as much as is available.

Persia (British Subjects.)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can furnish any information as to the condition of affairs at Tabriz, Ispahan, Teheran, and other towns in Persia; whether the interests of British subjects are in any danger, and whether His Majesty's Government intends to take any action?

I can add but little to the telegrams which have recently appeared in the public Press. Outward calm is maintained at Tehran, but Tabriz is in a state of civil war, and Ispahan is in the hands of the Baktiaris, who are maintaining order. Bread and provisions are becoming scarce at Tabriz, and I have warned the Persian Government that we shall hold them responsible should any harm befall the Consulate owing to the action of the Shah's troops. The situation at Resht is also causing anxiety. The interests of British subjects are, of course, adversely affected by the anarchical state of the country, and, as has already been stated, we shall continue to use our influence on behalf of such measures as seem likely to improve the situation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether it is true that the Shah's troops have cut the Indian telegraphs in Persia?

Indian Deportations

asked whether the public appeal issued by Mr. Krishna Mitra shortly before his deportation, urging his fellow countrymen to avoid crime, terrorising, and wrong-doing, was regarded by the Government of India as unlawful or criminal, or whether he committed any other act forbidden by the law of India before his deportation was authorised; and, if not, upon what ground was he deported?

As I have stated on several occasions, Mr. Mitra and others were arrested under the Regulation of 1818 because the Government of India were satisfied that their seclusion was necessary "for the security of the British dominions in India from internal commotion." The Secretary of State considers it undesirable to make any statement as to the particular grounds on which action was taken in each case. The Government of India were aware, as I stated last week, of the newspaper article referred to in the question.

May I ask whether it is peculiar to Europe to deprecate appeal to the pump?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could state to this House specifically whether any complaint has ever been lodged against this gentleman as a newspaper editor, or against his newspaper or against him in relation to any public pronouncement that he has ever made in India?

I am not able to answer that question; but one on similar lines will be referred to later on in the paper.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that this regulation of 1818, under which he is acting, was made by a knot of irresponsible officials in the old bad days of the East India Company, and before the Mutiny?

May I ask whether a similar regulation does not exist at the present time with regard to our Protectorates in Africa?

I do not know about that, but it exists in the Presidency of Bombay and Madras.

Is it the fact that when this gentleman was arrested it was publicly cabled by Reuter that his paper had been consistently advocating peaceful means and methods?

Has not this paper always been conspicuous in advocating peaceful measures, and denouncing resort to force?

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of statements communicated to my hon. Friend.

asked whether any of the nine British subjects in India who in December last were deported without charge or trial and are still in prison had ever been previously convicted of any crime, or had committed any breach of the law; and, if not, whether this circumstance was taken into consideration by the Government of India before authorising their deportation?

The Secretary of State is not aware whether any of the nine persons had ever been convicted of any crime or breach of the law; if any of them had been so convicted, the fact would be undoubtedly known to the Government of India.

May I ask whether in determining the length of this arbitrary imprisonment those facts will be taken into consideration by the Secretary of State?

I think all the facts and considerations will be taken into consideration by the Government of India when occasion arises to revise the action they have taken.

May I ask whether these gentlemen are not deported rather on account of their convictions than on account of their previous convictions?

asked whether it has been decided by the Secretary of State to prohibit the British subjects in India, who have recently been deported without charge or trial, from serving on the provincial councils to be established under the Indian Councils Bill; and, if so, upon what ground such a prohibition is based?

As the Secretary of State announced last week, the question of the qualifications for membership of Legislative Councils is still under consideration.

asked whether Mr. Satish Chatterjee, who has recently been deported from India without charge or trial, is a professor at the Braja Mohun Institution at Barisal, a college affiliated to the University of Calcutta; whether he has been alleged by the university authorities to have taught anything of an illegal or objectionable character; and, if not, what conduct on his part has been held by the Government to justify his being deprived of his liberty.

The answer to the first question is in the affirmative; as to the second, the Secretary of State has no information. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I have just given to a similar question about Mr. Mitra.

Is it the intention of the Secretary of State at any time to give information to the House of Commons on what grounds these deportations have taken place?

I cannot on behalf of the Secretary of State make any promise of that sort.

May I ask whether the real cause of the deportation of these gentlemen and of Mr. Dutt is that they have interested themselves in what is known as the boycott of British goods, which has led to great friction between themselves and Europeans, and on that account they have been interned in prison?

May I ask whether any of these gentlemen were ever suspected of being criminals until the agitation in connection with the partition of Bengal, and whether that was not the cause of these men taking part in public life?

I may safely say that I do not think the partition of Bengal had anything to do with the action of the Government.

Is it laid down as the future policy of the British Cabinet that the House of Commons is not to be informed as to the actions of the Executive in India? It is an exceedingly important constitutional question. No such pronouncement has ever been made.

On behalf of the Secretary of State I have given the fullest possible information to the House of Commons which it is in his power to do in the interest of the good government of India.

I must press this point. Is this novel policy of denying the House of Commons any knowledge of the motives and acts of the Executive in India to be adopted or no?

I have denied no information to the House of Commons which it is in my power to give.

May I ask whether Barisal and its educational institution have not of late been notorious centres of sedition and disaffection, and whether Satish Chatterjee was not one of the many seditious professors?

Is it not the case that the reports of the Government inspectors in regard to this institution have always shown the highest possible results?

Is it not the usual Parliamentary practice merely to give the House of Commons the information which is consistent with the public interests?

That is what I endeavour to do. With regard to the question of the working details of the work of the Barisal educational institution, I should like notice.

I wish to ask the leave of the House in a matter of definite urgent importance—

Deported Indian Subjects

asked whether Mr. Ashwini Kumar Dutt, who has been deported and imprisoned in India without charge or trial, is a Master of Arts and Bachelor of Laws of the University of Calcutta; whether he is also the founder of a large college with a high school section at Barisal, which is affiliated to the university; whether he has been several times elected chairman of the municipality of Barisal; whether he has frequently been engaged in organising measures for relief in times of cholera outbreaks and other public calamities; and, if so, whether these matters were considered by the Secretary of State before he sanctioned his deportation?

The Government of India was doubtless aware of Mr. Ashwini Kumar Dutt's position and attainments when he was arrested under the Regulation.

asked whether it is the intention of the Government of India to attach any electoral or civil disqualification to the British subjects in that country who have been imprisoned and deported without charge or trial; and, if so, what is the nature of the disqualification, and upon what grounds it is to be imposed?

As I stated just now, the question of eligibility for the Legislative Councils is under consideration, and the Secretary of State is not prepared at present to make any announcement on the subject.

May I ask if the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman he represents are aware that the course they are pursuing is one calculated to breed disloyalty and disaffection?

Are we to understand that the answer given in another place by the Secretary of State that the gentlemen who had been deported were not to sit on the new Provisional Councils is a statement of fact or not?

I think the hon. Gentleman cannot have read closely the Debate in another place, or he would have seen that it is not accurately reported.

asked whether, in cases of deportation under the Regulation of 1818 by the Governor-General in Council in India, any information is conveyed to the persons deported beyond the statement contained in the warrant, to the effect that for good and sufficient reasons the Governor-General in Council has seen fit to place such person or persons under personal restraint; and whether the grounds of the determination, which from time to time must come under revision, are made known to the person deported, so as to enable him to exercise the right provided under the Regulation in question freely to bring to the notice of the Governor-General in Council any circumstances relating to the grounds of his deportation?

No information beyond that contained in the warrant is given to the person arrested. He is also aware that action has been taken under the Regulation, which provides that such arrests can be made in order to secure a portion of His Majesty's dominions from internal commotion.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the value of the right secured under the Order of 1818 freely to make representations as to the ground of their deportation if they are not informed what the grounds are?

Under the limitations of the information conveyed to them, they have full and ample opportunity, of which I believe they avail themselves, of making communications.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Laj Patrai's case he twice asked the grounds on which he was deported, and in neither case was information given?

Police House Searches (Calcutta)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that a series of house searches are being carried out by the police in Calcutta, and that these raids are on the houses of some of the most respected residents in the town, many of whom are large landowners whose stake in the country is enough to prevent them having any association with crime or against authority; and whether, in view of the annoyance, indignity, and loss incurred, he will suggest to the Government of India that when the police apply for search warrants they shall give an undertaking that should a raid fail to provide material for legal prosecution the parties suffering shall be indemnified if they pray for same?

The Secretary of State has no official information to enable him to answer the first question. He cannot undertake to suggest to the Government of India the peculiar amendment of the law contained in the second question.

Am I to understand that the acts which occurred in Calcutta were undertaken by the authorities without the knowledge of the Government of India?

The hon. Gentleman's question is couched in very general terms. We are not aware of the particulars to which he refers, or of any general police searches being made at the present moment. If he can give me any particulars I shall be happy to inquire.

Would not the suggested course reduce the Indian police to absolute impotence?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that some 12 boys, mostly schoolboys, aged 13 years and upwards, have been arrested from seven villages under warrants issued by the sub-divisional officer of Madaripur, Mr. Soames, and that when the district magistrate was applied to on behalf of the boys for bail he stated he knew nothing of the matter, and sent on the application to Mr. Soames; if so, can he state the reasons why these boys were arrested; why it was that the head officer of the district did not know the arrests were to be made; and whether the boys are on bail or still in prison?

The Secretary of State has no information on the subject. Sub-divisional magistrates are authorised to act independently of district magistrates in ordering arrests.

Am I to understand that the Secretary of State is without knowledge of this fact, that the chief officer of the district did not know why the arrest took place and for what the lads were arrested, neither did the parents and guardians, and neither did the lads themselves?

We do not get full reports of every police case in India. There was no report with regard to this case. In regard to the substance of the question, I am informed that the sub-divisional magistrate is a first-class magistrate, and there will be no appeal from him to the chief magistrate of the district. He was within his rights in acting as he did.

Under what Act were the lads arrested? Was it the 1818 Act, and may they be sent to Courts in Man-delay and elsewhere for trial?

Nagpur Congress

asked whether the order to suppress the Nagpur Congress, issued by the Deputy Commissioner of Nagpur, was in the first place submitted to the higher authorities, with reason for the suppression; if not, has a Deputy Commissioner power, on the evidence of the police, to decide as to whether the resolutions to be discussed at a public congress are seditious; and whether, in view of the danger of all public meetings being proclaimed because a Government official may disagree with items on an agenda, the Government of India will take steps to issue an instruction in such matters for the general guidance of the police and officials?

The Secretary of State has no official information to enable him to answer the first question. From the terms of the proclamation it is clear that the magistrate acted, not on the grounds indicated in the question, but under Section 144 of the Criminal Procedure Code, which deals with meetings that it is believed might endanger human life, or lead to riot or serious disturbance. The higher judicial authorities could have been appealed to, if those responsible for the meeting considered that the magistrate's action was not covered by that Section.

Transvaal Gold Industry

asked whether there is any information showing the progress of the gold industry in the Transvaal during the year 1908; what dividends have been paid by the producing mines; how far the supply of native labour has developed; whether the working costs have fallen; and how many of the Chinese labourers were repatriated, and within what period the remainder of them will go?

A certain amount of the relevant information available in the Colonial Office regarding output of gold, native labour, and profits, was given in reply to a similar question addresed to me yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for North Bucks. To that information I would add that I have observed a statement made by the President of the Transvaal Chamber of Mines at the end of last month to the effect that there has been a fall of 2s. 4d. per ton in the working cost of 67 of the principal producing mines. The number of Chinese labourers decreased during the year by 21,574. The last Chinese are due to return in January next year.

Asiatics and Crown Colonies

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, having regard to the difficulties that have arisen and continue to arise in connection with the immigration of Asiatics into the self-governing Colonies of the Crown, he will consider the desirability of enlarging the scope of the reference to the Committee that has recently been appointed to consider the question of the emigration from India to the Crown Colonies, so as to embrace the larger problem, and with a view to the establishment of a general policy for the Empire?

No, Sir; it is not proposed to enlarge the scope of the reference as the question of Indian immigration into the self-governing Colonies involves considerations of a much larger character. I may add that none of the self-governing Colonies have asked for an inquiry of the kind proposed.

Railway Season Tickets

asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been directed to the fact that, while the cost of a second-class season ticket on the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway between Norwood and London Bridge is £8 per year, the cost of a third-class season ticket, which is only issued monthly, is 15s. per month, or £9 per year, while the company charge 5s. for a packet of six third-class return tickets, which comes to £13 per year; if he is aware that all these charges are much higher than those charged upon nationalised railways for similar services; and if he will take such measures as are necessary to deprive private railway companies of the power of thus taxing the public?

I understand that the facts are as stated by my hon. Friend. I believe that in some countries where the railways are State-owned the scale of charges for season tickets is lower than that in force on the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway, but the issue of season tickets by a railway company is a purely voluntary proceeding, and the Board of Trade have no statutory powers with regard to the terms on which they are issued. I am, however, communicating with the company with regard to the apparent anomalies referred to by my hon. Friend.

Provincial Homes, Limited, Manchester

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the practices of a company known as the Provincial Homes, Limited, of Mount Street, Manchester; whether he is aware that this company sells certificates to would-be householders, who then pay a weekly sum on the understanding that a loan will be advanced to them to enable them to purchase a house; whether he is aware that in many cases the loan has not been advanced, and that in many actions judgment has been given against the company for misrepresentation; and whether, in view of these facts, he will take steps to secure the compulsory winding-up of the concern?

My attention has been called to the Provincial Homes, Limited, and I am quite aware that there have been decisions in the county court at Manchester which justify in no small measure the suggestions made in the hon. Member's question. With regard to the last paragraph of my hon. Friend's question, I have no power whatever to take any steps to secure the compulsory winding-up of any existing company. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the answer which I recently gave to a question addressed to me by the hon. Member for North-West Manchester as to the action taken and proposed by the Board of Trade with regard to companies of this kind.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that other companies of this kind are in existence, and if he has not powers will he seek powers in order to prevent the public being fleeced in this manner?

In such cases in which the business is not carried on in all respects in a satisfactory manner I have contemplated a further guarantee being required in order to prevent what is complained of; but as to new legislation I cannot say anything at present.

Railway Servants' Wages Census

asked the President of the Board of Trade when the census of wages of railway servants being compiled by his Department will be presented to this House?

The railway companies have readily responded to the application of the Board of Trade for information as to the earnings and hours of labour of railway servants, and the returns are now being compiled. It is not possible at this stage to state definitely when the Report will be presented to the House, but my hon. Friend may rest assured that there will be no undue delay.

Loch Arklet Water Scheme

asked the Lord Advocate what is the area of ground which is being obtained by the Glasgow Corporation from the Duke of Montrose for the Loch Arklet water scheme; what is the price fixed by the arbitrator; and what was being taken as the annual value of that property for rating purposes at the time of the arbitration?

The area of ground taken was 379 acres, 2 roods, 8 poles. The price fixed by the arbiter was £17,087 14s. 11d. The land taken formed part of a larger area, and was not separately shown on the valuation roll. The rental of the larger area was £590 per annum.

Unemployed Procession, Glasgow (Alleged Assault)

asked the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been drawn to a case of alleged assault committed by a police officer during an unemployed procession in Glasgow on 29th October last; whether the Procurator Fiscal was instructed to inquire into the case; whether the complainant's agent supplied the Fiscal with the names and addresses of six witnesses to the assault; whether the Fiscal neglected to call any of these witnesses; and what was the nature of his report upon the case?

My attention has been drawn to the case of alleged assault mentioned; by the hon. Member. The Procurator Fiscal was instructed to inquire into the case, and he was supplied by the complainer's agent with the names and addresses of certain witnesses, and with their precognitions. The Procurator Fiscal inquired fully into the case, and came to the conclusion that there was not sufficient evidence to support the charge of assault. The matter was subsequently brought under the notice of my predecessor in. office, who ordered the Advocate Depute on the circuit to investigate the case. The Advocate Depute, after careful inquiry, came to the conclusion at which the Procurator Fiscal had arrived, and my predecessor in office expressed his concurrence with the conclusion reached by the Procurator Fiscal and the Advocate Depute. I may add that I have given the matter independent consideration, and, after careful perusal of the precognitions, I have come to the same conclusion as my predecessor in office.

May I ask is it a fact, as stated in the question, that the Fiscal neglected to call any of the six witnesses who saw the assault, and, if so, how could he come to a conclusion as to the evidence without seeing the witnesses?

He had the precognitions which were taken by the complainer's agent before him, and they were thoroughly reliable.

Scotch University Grants

asked whether the special committee to be appointed by the Secretary for Scotland under the Education (Scotland) Act to inquire into the applications of the University courts in Scotland for financial assistance to the Universities out of the Education (Scotland) Fund will be the same committee now being constituted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to investigate as to the grants made to Universities in Scotland as compared with those made to England, Ireland, and Wales?

No, Sir. No application by the Scottish Universities for financial assistance out of the Education (Scotland) Fund can be considered till the result of any action taken upon the report of the Committee now about to be appointed has been fully ascertained.

Old Age Pension Case (Arbroath)

asked the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that an old lady who applied for a pension in Arbroath has been refused, on the ground that her income exceeds £31 10s., the facts being that this old lady lives with a married daughter whose husband is in receipt of more than £200 per year, and for the domestic services of the mother the daughter gives her board and lodging; whether he is aware that board and lodging for women in Arbroath is valued at 6s. per week; and whether he can take any action in this matter?

An appeal has been taken to the Local Government Board for Scotland in a case which appears to answer to the description given in the question, and the case is now under the consideration of that Board.

Secondary Schools Regulations

asked when it is proposed to issue new regulations for secondary schools; and whether it is proposed to alter, amongst others, Article 43, which deals with the opening of new schools?

The Secondary Schools Regulations are under consideration, but I cannot yet say when they will be issued. I am unable to forecast what alterations will be made.

Is the right hon Gentleman aware that the Regulations last year were contained in the Memorandum dated the 10th of April, and can he say whether they are likely to be issued this year on a corresponding date, or will they be later?

I am afraid I cannot say at the present moment. I shall try to avoid any unnecessary delay.

History Teaching in Birmingham

asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the method of history teaching adopted in one of the council secondary schools in Birmingham; and whether he will initiate an inquiry with a view to ascertaining the facts of the case?

The hon. Member has sent me a copy of an anonymous letter appearing in a newspaper, but I regret that the information given therein is not sufficient to enable me to institute an inquiry.

Burnley Education Authority (Dismissal of Teacher)

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that the Burnley education authority has tendered notice to a female teacher to terminate her engagement with the authority, on the grounds that she has given expression to her personal opinions on subjects of a controversial character relating to religious, political, or social questions; whether he is aware that she denies the allegations and asserts that she has not been confronted with her accusers or allowed to bring forward evidence to refute the charge; and what steps, if any, he proposes to take in the matter?

I have received no information as to the case referred to. The Board have no power to inquire into or reverse the decision of a local authority to terminate the engagement of a teacher employed by them.

West Riding Education Committee (New School, Silkstone)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the Board have received a petition from Silk-stone, signed by 96 per cent, of the inhabitants, against the proposal of the West Riding Education Committee to build a new school; and whether he will hold a local inquiry into the circumstances before assenting to such proposal.

The Board have received the petition referred to. The proposed school was, however, decided under Section 9 of the Act of 1902 to be necessary as long ago as October, 1905, and a Provisional Order for the compulsory acquisition of a site was confirmed by the Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation Act, 1906. In these circumstances I regret I am unable to reopen the question as to the necessity of the school.

Is not it a fact that new circumstances have arisen which make the particular site undesirable?

I have no official information to that effect. As far as I know, the circumstances have not arisen.

Is not it a fact that the objections came from the people in the locality who have been making these experimental borings and have discovered the unsatisfactory character of the site?

Teachers' Registration Council

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he can state what progress has been made towards the establishment of a teachers' registration council; and whether, having regard to the fact that the principal teachers' associations are agreed as to the necessity of such a council being at once formed, and generally, also, as to its constitution, the Board will proceed to make appointments to the council of persons representing the teaching profession who shall be qualified to act in a judicial capacity with respect to the claims of applicants for admission to the register?

From communications which I have received from various important sections of the teaching profession, which, under the recent proposals for a registration council, would not have received representation, I gather that there is no such general agreement as to the composition of the council as is suggested in the hon. Member's question. I am, however, not without hope that if further time be allowed for interchange of views and of expert knowledge amongst the associations of teachers, on a comprehensive and not on an exclusive basis, a scheme may be arrived at for the establishment of a new council so constituted as to be really "representative of the teaching profession" as required by the Statute.

Fibroid Phthisis

Will the Secretary of State for the Home Department state whether, in view of the opinion of the Departmental Committee on Industrial Diseases that fibroid phthisis exists amongst workmen in slate quarries, any effort has been made to protect the workers in the trade from the effect of dust inhalation by special rules or otherwise, as has been done in the Potteries and in the mines of Cornwall and Devon?

I find that the Committee on Industrial Diseases reported that the incidence of fibroid phthisis in slate quarries had been established in some instances. In the case of the Cornish mines, to which my hon. Friend refers, special rules were established after an exhaustive inquiry, which showed extensive mischief owing to the use of machine drills. In the case of the slate mines and quarries, there is no evidence that the disease prevails to a serious extent, and much of the drilling, I understand, is done by hand, involving much less exposure to dust. The question, however, of extending the precautions adopted in the Cornish mines to all cases in which dust of an injurious character may be produced by rock drilling, has not been lost sight of, and the working of the existing rules is being carefully watched. The Royal Commission on Mines are, I believe, shortly to reach that part of their inquiry which has to do with conditions of health and safety in metalliferous mines and quarries, and I think it would be desirable that the matter should be considered by them.

Motor Omnibus Licensing

I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there is any police regulation which prohibits the licensing of a motor omnibus capable of going at a greater speed than 12 miles an hour; and, if so, what steps are taken to give effect to this regulation?

There is a regulation, which is enforced by the Commissioner of Police, and which requires that motor omnibuses should be so geared that their highest normal speed shall not be in excess of 12 miles per hour. This does not mean that a motor omnibus conforming to the regulation cannot exceed this speed when running down hill or with undue acceleration of the engine. My hon. Friend may recollect that the Report of the Select Committee on Cabs and Omnibuses, as well as that of the Royal Commission on Motor Cars, agreed in not recommending such a regulation as that referred to in his question. I may refer my hon. Friend to page 13 of the Report of the Select Committee.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last paragraph of my question.

I think I have answered it. I referred him to the Report of the Select Committee on that point.

What measures are taken to give effect to the regulations which actually exist.

The police have taken action in many cases where they have obtained satisfactory evidence, and they have prosecuted. The police are always on the watch, and they take proceedings when they get the necessary evidence.

Judge Rentoul (Correspondence)

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he will lay upon the Table copies of the correspondence which has passed between him and Judge Rentoul, K.C., in reference to the number of aliens tried by the learned judge at the Old Bailey?

Motor Car Swing Lights

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that a firm of manufacturers of lamps for motor-cars are advertising a swing light, by the use of which it will be possible to maintain a speed of 40 miles an hour while examining the road past severe curves, while with a fixed light it is necessary to slow down at curves; and whether he will require the withdrawal of the licence from cars furnished with such a light, or seek powers to effect this object?

I have seen an advertisement of a lamp of the kind referred to. Article II. of the Motor Cars (Use and Construction) Order, 1904, provides that the lamp carried by a motor car "shall be so constructed, fitted, and attached as to prevent the movement or the use as a searchlight of the light exhibited by it." If in the case of the lamp referred to by my hon. Friend this regulation is infringed, the offender will be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding £10.

Destitution (Definition of)

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether the definition of destitution given by Mr. Adrian, the legal adviser of the Local Government Board, and quoted at page 597 of the Majority Report of the Poor Law Commission, has been communicated to all the poor law inspectors and poor law auditors to the Board; if so, when it was communicated; and, if not, whether he will communicate it to them forthwith?

I am not aware of any need for calling the special attention of the inspectors and auditors to the definition referred to; but I may say that a copy of the report of the Royal Commission was sent to each of the inspectors when it was issued.

Is it not a fact that the Royal Commission recommended the term "necessitous" instead of "destitute"?

Small Holdings (East and West Suffolk)

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, how many men have applied for small holdings in East Suffolk and West Suffolk separately; how many applications have been granted; and how many are actually in possession of the holdings?

Admiralty Yacht Cruises

I desire to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty what was the total cost in coal supplies, pay, etc., of the recent cruises of the Admiralty yacht to Scotland and to Malta; and for what purpose these cruises were undertaken?

My right hon. Friend has asked the hon. Member to put this question down for to-morrow, when he hopes to be in the House.

New Cruisers and Destroyers (Construction)

I beg to ask whether there has been, or is likely to be, any delay in the construction of the new cruisers and destroyers of the 1908–9 programme, owing to changes in their design introduced since the contracts were awarded, or to any other cause; and, if so, what is the anticipated extent of such delay and its financial effect?

There has not been, nor is there likely to be, any delay in the construction of the new cruisers and destroyers of the 1908–9 programme. As a matter of fact, there will be a much larger expenditure on these vessels in the financial year than was forecasted in the Estimates for the year.

Can the hon. Member give us any idea how much larger this expenditure is likely to be?

I cannot give that information off hand. I know it is a very considerable addition.

Home Dockyards (Hired Workmen)

Will the First Lord of the Admiralty inform me what were the numbers of hired workmen employed in the home dockyards and victualling yards on 1st March, 1893, and on 1st March, 1909?

The figures are not quite complete, and I should be glad if the hon. Member will postpone his question until Thursday.

Victualling Storehouses

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether at the present time the victualling storehouses of Plymouth and Gosport are practically empty of such stores as sugar, tea, and flour; and whether any substantial stock is being kept at the Royal Victoria Victualling Yard?

The reply to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the negative, and to the second part in the affirmative.

Probate Registry Vacancy

Will the Secretary to the Treasury say whether there is at present a vacancy in the second-class of the Probate Registry; and, if so, why the same has not been promptly filled according to precedent by the automatic promotion of a third-class clerk; and whether it is intended to fill the position by promoting a clerk from another office, and thereby depriving the clerks in the office of promotion?

I am informed by the President of the Probate Division that there is at present a vacancy in the second class in the Probate Registry. No decision has yet been reached as to how the vacancy shall be filled, as the President requires time to consider the matter.

Old Age Pensions Act (Audit)

I desire to ask whether the expenditure under the Old Age Pensions Act will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General?

Duty on Raisins, Currants and Dried Fruits

asked whether he proposed to remove the Customs duty upon raisins, currants, and dried fruits?

I think the hon. Member must have forgotten that it is impossible for my right hon. Friend to make any statement at this period as to what provisions will or will not be included in the Finance Bill of 1909.

Will the hon. Member draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the great disappointment this will cause to the children of Liverpool unless the tax is removed?

Surely the hon. Member realises that it is impossible to give details of the Budget beforehand.

Parliamentary Papers (Printing)

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been directed to the improvement in the accuracy and speed of production of the Parliamentary Debates which has ensued upon their being taken out of the hands of private contractors; and whether, having regard to this fact, he will take measures that the printing of all parliamentary papers is in future carried out, in the public interest, by properly paid public servants.

The hon. Member appears to be under some misapprehension. The printing of the Official Report of the Parliamentary Debates is carried out by a private firm under contract with the Stationery Office, in the same manner as other printing required for public departments.

Will the hon. Member suggest a still further improvement, namely, that in the printing the time at which each member begins his speech should be inserted. Perhaps that would be the means of inducing some hon. Members to curtail their remarks?

I should be glad to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion if I thought it would have the effect he desires.

Australian Provision Firms (Army and Navy Orders)

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the usual practice for departments such as the Army and Navy to place orders for the supply of canned provisions with Australian firms; and, if this is not done, will he be good enough to say why?

Speaking for the War Department I have nothing to add to the information which I gave to the hon. Member on this subject yesterday.

Afforestation

Has the Prime Minister's attention been directed to the resolution passed unanimously by the Association of Chambers of Commerce on Wednesday, 3rd March, urging the Government to give immediate attention to the question of afforestation; and if he can now state whether the Government intend to take any action upon the Report of the Royal Commission recommending the adoption of a systematic scheme of State afforestation.

My hon. Friend may rest assured that this matter will not be lost sight of; but at the moment I am not in a position to make any announcement as to the steps which the Government may take.

Gt. Northern, Gt. Central and Gt. Eastern Railways Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether in view of the importance of the issues raised by the introduction into Parliament of the Great Northern, Great Central, and Great Eastern Railways Bill he can see his way to afford facilities for its discussion by giving a day for it, in order that it may not be inadequately dealt with after 8 o'clock?

I am quite alive to the importance of the issues raised by this Bill; but I must point out to my hon. Friend that the time at the disposal of the Government is so limited that I cannot give any special facilities for private Bills.

Navy Estimates

I beg to ask the Prime Minister on what day it is proposed to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair for Navy Estimates?

Perhaps my right hon. Friend would wait until Thursday, when I hope to make a statement on the course of public business.

Brewers' Licence Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the licence duty payable by the brewer who during the year ending 30th September, 1908, brewed less than 100 barrels of beer; what was the licence duty payable by the brewer who in the same year brewed more than 1,000,000 barrels of beer; and how many persons or firms there were in each of these categories?

It would not be in accordance with practice to furnish information with regard to individual cases.

Income Tax Demand Notes

inquired of the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state his reason for refusing to print on Income Tax demand notes the provision of the Revenue Act of 1889 as respects discount for prepayment; whether it has been brought to his notice that in some cases collectors have refused to allow discount on the ground that they had no instructions; and whether he will see that at any rate Inland Revenue officials are properly informed upon the subject?

As regards the first part of the question, I have nothing to add to the replies given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. Member on the 2nd instant. In regard to the second part of the question, my right hon. Friend has every reason to believe that Inland Revenue officials are properly informed upon the subject, but he is inquiring into the cases which have been brought to his notice privately by the hon. Member.

Does the right hon. Member not think that, considering the present condition of the Treasury, and the chance that it will be rather in a worse state, that it would be advisable to give the taxpayers every information to induce them to pay?

Estates Commissioners and Evicted Tenants

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners impose upon some evicted tenants onerous conditions, either by fixing an unpayable price or offering an inadequate substitute for an evicted farm, and punishing by neglect those who do not accept their conditions; and whether he can arrange that, when a difference as to value arises between people who know the land from experience and an inspector who has never lived by farming, the opinion of a second inspector or independent valuer shall be taken, and the law passed for the relief of those people be allowed to operate?

The Estates Commissioners do not impose onerous conditions on evicted tenants. In providing for a person without means who has been evicted from a large farm, the Commissioners may consider it best to offer a moderately sized farm suitably equipped. If the offer is refused, they take no further action. In any case in which the Commissioners have a doubt as to reasonableness of the price estimated by their inspector, they direct a second inspection.

inquired of the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that, after an eviction has been aggravated by the death of the evicted tenant from exposure, his widow and children are further punished by the refusal of the Estates Commissioners to acquire the evicted farm compulsorily, though untenanted and within their powers; and if he does not consider that a reasonable exercise of the Commissioners' discretion, whether he will ask them to reconsider the claim of Widow Riggs and her children?

I have nothing to add to my reply to a question in reference to this case asked by the hon. Member on the 15th May last.

Arterial Drainage (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Government contemplate the introduction of legislation on arterial drainage in Ireland or the making of any financial provision for that purpose; and, if not, what steps they propose to take, and when, to reform and restore the efficiency of the existing drainage boards, rendered necessary by the extensive transfer of the ownership of land subject to drainage rates?

Lismacaffy (Alleged) Duress Case

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners and their inspectors disregard duress practised by vendors upon embarrassed purchasers unless furnished with legal evidence; whether they will investigate the case of Widow Maria Early, a distressed tenant on the Chapman estate, at Corolanna, Lismacaffy, Westmeath, who has, under the bailiff's threat of eviction and seizure, signed an agreement, witnessed by him, to buy her holding at a price which she knows it can never repay; and, in addition to making the price equitable, whether they will protect her from punishment of any kind for having made this complaint?

The Estates Commissioners will inquire into the allegations of duress in this case, when the estate is being inspected in its order of priority.

Purchase Agreements under Duress

inquired of the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the Estates Commissioners receive and treat as regular and valid purchase agreements signed under duress and witnessed only by the persons practising the duress; whether, this being an instance of persons profiting by their own fraud, he will have instructions given, under Section 23 (8) of the Land Act of 1903, that signature as a witness by a servant or dependant of a vendor, or by any person for or in expectation of reward in cash or kind or other consideration from a vendor, shall be treated as an offence on the part of such servant, dependant, or person, and shall be null and void; and whether, in all the otherwise completed transactions vitiated and nullified by this abuse in which the prices have not yet been actually paid, those prices will be revised before payment?

The Estates Commissioners make full inquiry into any case in which duress is alleged. The answer to the remainder of the question is in the negative.

Laud Commission and Estate Commissioners (Revision of Staff)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, with a view to enabling him to carry out this month, on its merits, the annual revision of the staff of land valuers and inspectors employed by the Land Commission and Estates Commissioners, he has furnished himself with a report showing in connection with each valuer and inspector the rents and prices respectively estimated by him which have not been punctually paid and have led to cost and trouble, and showing instances of partiality, incompetence, or mismanagement in other respects, with its consequences; and, if not, these being matters now affecting the general public, whether he will furnish himself with such a report and lay it upon the Table of the House?

Mayberry Estates, County Kerry

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the evicted tenants have now been reinstated in their holdings on the Maybury estate, near Kenmare, county Kerry; can he state what are the grants which have been allocated to each of these tenants; and can he state when these grants will be given?

The Estates Commissioners have directed one of their inspectors to arrange as soon as possible for the expenditure of the grants which they have sanctioned. The Commissioners will furnish particulars of the grants to the hon. Member.

Evicted Tenants (County Clare)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will call the attention of the Estates Commismissioners to the urgency of reinstating the evicted tenants of county Clare; if he can say how many cases have been dealt with; and how many still remain to be dealt with?

The Estates Commissioners are using their best endeavours to effect the reinstatement of evicted tenants. Up to the present 129 have been reinstated in county Clare, and 31 others have been noted for consideration in the allotment of untenanted land. No inquiry has yet been made in regard to applications not lodged within the time specified by the Evicted Tenants Act.

Roberts Estate, Cashel, County Longford

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland is he aware that the tenants of the Roberts estate, in the parish of Cashel, barony of Rathcline, county Longford, have been in treaty with their landlord and his agent, Mr. Robinson, 119, St. Stephen's Green, Dublin, for the past four years for the purchase of their holdings; and, as a request has been lodged with the Estates Commissioners under the Land Purchase Acts, will he call on the Estates Commissioners to expedite this sale, as it will tend to the peace of this district in county Longford?

The request for the sale of this estate will be dealt with by the Estates Commissioners in its order of priority.

Stafford King-Harman Estate, County Longford

inquired of the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he will explain why the evicted tenants, Heslem and Farrell, off the Stafford King-Harman estate, Lisnanagh, county Longford, have not been reinstated as yet, though these tenants were promised at different times during the past year to be reinstated; is he aware that their farms are completely derelict through the mismanagement of the receiver for the past two years and a complete loss to the landlords; and will he call on the Court of Chancery to have these tenants reinstated at once, as the property has been sold?

Proceedings are pending for the sale of the property comprising the farms in question to the Estates Commissioners. Until the Commissioners acquire the property they cannot reinstate the evicted tenants. As regards the remainder of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a question asked by him on 1st April last.

Aughanish Farms, County Limerick

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can say whether the Estates Commissioners are taking any action to have Mrs. O'Shaughnessy and Mrs. Hayes reinstated in the farms at Aughanish, in the county of Limerick, from which they were evicted; and how long will it be before they get back their farms?

The Estates Commissioners cannot reinstate the evicted tenants until they acquire this estate. Proceedings for its sale are pending.

Kilgulvan Grazing Lands, County Limerick

inquired of the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that there are over 200 acres of grazing lands at Kilgulvan, Knockaderry, in the county of Limerick, the property of Major Sheehy, of Cherry Grove, Croom, from which tenants were evicted; that from part of these lands the Scanlan family were evicted; can he say to whom Scanlan's farm was let as a judicial tenancy, and what was the date of the letting; was it since the passing of the Land Act of 1903; and will he propose to the Estates Commissioners to make fuller inquiries concerning these lands with the view to acquiring them compulsorily for the evicted tenants?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that the lands in question are held, under fair rent agreement I dated 11th November, 1903, by Major B. P. Sheehy, from Harriette L. Hennessy, B. E. Sheehy, and another, owners. The lands cannot be acquired compulsorily. As the hon. Member has already been informed, the Commissioners have provided Mrs. Scaman with another holding, and do not propose to take any further action in the matter.

Poor Law Officials, Ireland (Remuneration)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether a resolution has been received by the Local Government Board, passed by the Mountmellick Board of Guardians on the 13th ultimo, with reference to the remuneration of poor law officials for supplying Returns to the Royal Commission, and requesting that the Treasury should be called upon to pay those expenses instead of having them come out of local rates; and can he say what decision the Local Government Board have come to in the matter?

The Local Government Board have informed the Mountmellick Guardians, in reply to their resolution, that they have no funds at their disposal, and are not aware of any other Government Funds, out of which the officers of the union could be remunerated for this work. On the general question of payment for such Returns I would refer the hon. Member to the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to a question asked by the hon. Member for South Wexford on 26th November last.

Is it not a fact that the Royal Commissioners have funds supplied for the payment of these expenses?

Garryfine Eviction, County Limerick

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can say what is the obstacle in the way of the Estates Commissioners preventing them reinstating the Dunworth family in the farm at Garryfine, in the county of Limerick, from which they were evicted?

I have nothing to add to my answer to the question on the same subject asked by the hon. Member on 18th February last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the man who is in occupation of this farm is an estate agent and a landlord himself?

Will the Commissioners take steps at once to reinstate this man? He has been there for nearly 20 years, and will not take any other farm.

T cannot help that. The Estates Commissioners say they have done their very best, and we cannot do better than that.

Knockaderry Farm, County Limerick

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can say what is the total amount paid by the Irish Church Temporalities Commissioners to the caretaker for herding the farm containing about 14 acres and situate near Knockaderry, in the county of Limerick, from which the late William Brown was evicted; how much have they made out of the land during the same period; and if they be at a loss arising out of the working of the farm, will they reinstate the widow of William Brown on such terms as will avoid its continuance?

As I have already informed the hon. Member, the late William Brown was dispossessed of this holding in 1894, owing to his failure to pay a purchase annuity. Since then several attempts to sell the holding have failed. The Land Commission do not propose to reinstate Mrs. Brown as a tenant, and no useful purpose would be served by giving details of their expenditure in connection with the holding.

Was it not the purchase price paid for the land that made it impossible for him to pay it?

Cattan Farm, County Leitrim

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if Francis M'Vally, an evicted tenant, will be reinstated on his farm of land at Cattan, county Leitrim, on the estate of Mr. George White, Cloon Grange, Mohill, which estate has been sold within the past two years; and if the present occupier of the farm, a man named Mitchell, has agreed to vacate the farm and take compensation for it?

Marsham and Ruthven Estates, Co. Leitrim

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can state how many evicted tenants have been reinstated on the Marsham and Ruthven estates, in county Leitrim; and how many still remain to be reinstated on those estates from whom applications have been received for reinstatement by the Estates Commissioners?

The Estates Commissioners have received 27 applications for reinstatement on these estates. Three were not lodged within the time specified in the Evicted Tenants Act. The Commissioners have rejected 17 after due inquiry, and they are in negotiation with the owners with a view to the reinstatement of the remainder.

Lyster Estates, County Kilkenny

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if, owing to the number of evicted tenants and uneconomic land holders still existing in North Kilkenny, he can state when the Lyster estate, Danesforth, county Kilkenny, will be ready for distribution; can he state what price the Estates Commissioners paid for the estate; and if it is intended that the requirements of the people of the immediate district duly entitled to acquire portions of the estate will be considered before those of strangers?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that the owner has accepted their offer of £6,206 for this property. The Commissioners are having a scheme prepared for the allotment of the lands amongst persons of the classes mentioned in Section 2 of the Act of 1903.

Rifle Clubs and The Gun Licences Act, 1870

asked what steps have been taken to secure members of rifle clubs from proceedings under The Gun Licences Act, 1870, in respect of the use of rifles for competition and practice?

Is it not a fact that the Revenue Officers require a licence to be taken out?

Dacoit Dead Leaders' Photographs

asked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to a photograph reproduced in the "Graphic" of last week in which a number of British soldiers are grouped behind the dead bodies of two Dacoit leaders; and whether he will give orders that British troops in India are not to pose for photographs with dead bodies laid out before them?

The Secretary of State has seen the photograph alluded to by the hon. Member. He considers the photograph to be an objectionable one, and he will draw the attention of the Government of India to it.

Royal Field Artillery (Fatal Accident at Stoke Holy Cross)

asked the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been directed to the case of the late Mr. Charles James Ward, who met his death on Saturday, 27th February, through being knocked off a horse at Stoke Holy Cross whilst out for instructional purposes with a party of sergeants of the 3rd Battery of the 1st East Anglian Brigade, Royal Field Artillery; whether he is aware that a widow and two children are left unprovided for; whether the fact of Ward being killed whilst performing military duty entitles the dependants to compensation; and, if so, will he state whether this will take the form of a pension or a contribution to any fund that may be opened for the benefit of the widow and children?

This case is already under consideration. A decision awaits information which has been called for, and it is hoped that it may be found that the widow and children will be eligible for pension.

Raisuli and the British Government

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had any official information to the effect that Raisuli will abandon his British protection and restore to the British Government £15,000 out of the £20,000 he received as ransom for Kaid Maclean?

It has been reported to the Secretary of State that Raisuli proposes, on accepting an important post from the Sultan of Morocco, to waive his claim to British protection. The Secretary of State is in communication with His Majesty's Minister at Tangier as to the repayment of the £20,000 advanced to the Moorish Government for Kaid Maclean's ransom.

Point of Order

Adjournment of the House

I rise to ask your ruling. Sir, upon a point of Constitutional importance. I wish to know whether it would be in order for a Member to move the adjournment of the House in order to call attention to the following matter, which seems to me of great public importance, namely, the refusal of the Minister responsible to this House to give the grounds of his action in a matter in which he acted in his capacity of responsible Minister? Can the adjournment be moved on the refusal of the Minister to state the grounds of his action?

I should like to thank the hon. Member in the first place for having given me such notice as he was able to give of his intention to put this question. My reply to him is that I do not think it is competent to move the adjournment of the House on those grounds. A Minister cannot be forced to give an answer if he declines on the ground of public policy. Under those circumstances I could not accept the Motion of the hon. Gentleman to move the adjournment under Standing Order 10.

If the refusal is given without any mention of policy, but a mere curt refusal, is that enough?

So long as the refusal is made, as I understand it was made in the case to which the hon. Member is referring, on the ground of public interest, then my answer holds good.

May I ask whether I should be in order in moving the adjournment of the House on the following definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the arrest and deportation and continued imprisonment without charge or trial of British subjects in India.

I could not accept the Motion for the adjournment of the House on two grounds. In the first place it is not a definite matter of urgent public importance, it is not sufficiently definite, and it is an old matter, and not one which is brought up now for the first time as of definite and urgent public importance. The second ground why I cannot accept the Motion is that one Amendment was moved this Session during the debate on the Address on those very grounds, and was decided by the House, and, therefore, could not be raised again.

As this is a matter of extreme importance, may I direct attention to a precedent in which the adjournment of the House was moved under precisely similar circumstances?

I do not think I can hear any argument on my ruling, as I have decided the question, and we have already passed on to other business.

Course of Business

Will the Prime Minister state what Supply he proposes to take to-night?

After the Army Vote, we hope to take also the Report of the non-contentious part of the Supplementary Vote.

Notices of Motion

gave notice, that on this day fortnight he will call attention to the Taxation of Land Values, and move a resolution.

gave notice that on this day fortnight he would call attention to the heavy burden which would fall upon the poor of London by the increased taxation of food, and move a resolution.

Presentation of Bills

The following Bills were presented and read a first time:—

Mr. HOOPER—Railways (Contracts).—Bill to amend the law relating to railway and canal companies' rates and conditions of conveyance. (To be read a second time 14th April.)

Mr. CLELAND—Municipal Elections.—Biil to amend The Municipal Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) Act, 1884. (To be read a second time 15th March.)

Mr. CLELAND—Trade Disputes.—Bill to promote arbitration in Trade Disputes. (To be read a second time l5th March.)

Sir WALTER FOSTER—Public Health Officers.—Bill to amend the law relating to the qualification and tenure of office of Medical Officers of Health; and for other purposes. (To be read a second time 16th April.)

Mr. BARNARD—Licensing.—Bill to amend the Licensing Acts, 1828 to 1906. (To be read a second time 15th March.)

Business of the House

Supply

, in accordance with notice, moved:—"That the proceedings on the business of Supply, if under

Division No. 28.]

AYES.

[3.50 p.m.

Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

Duncan, J. Hastings (York. Otley)

Lewis, John Herbert

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Acland, Francis Dyke

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lupton, Arnold

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Lyell, Charles Henry

Agar-Robartes. Hon. T. C. R.

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Lynch, H. B.

Agnew, George William

Erskine, David C.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Alden. Percy

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Evans, Sir Samuel T.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Asquith. Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Everett, R. Lacey

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Atherley-Jones, L.

Fenwick, Charles

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth)

Ferens, T. R.

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Findlay, Alexander

M'Callum, John M.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Flynn, James Christopher

M'Crae, Sir George

Barnard. E. B.

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

M'Kean, John

Barnes, G. N.

Fuller, John Michael F.

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Fullerton, Hugh

M'Laren. H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Barran, Sir John Nicholson

Gibb, James (Harrow)

M'Micking. Major G.

Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

Gill, A. H.

Maddison, Frederick

Beale, W. P.

Ginnell. L.

Markham. Arthur Basil

Beauchamp, E.

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

Marnham. F. J.

Bellairs. Carlyon

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.)

Meagher. Michael

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Glover, Thomas

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Meehan. Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

Bennett, E. N.

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Menzies. Walter

Bertram, Julius

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Bethel, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Gulland, John W.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Bethel, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Gurdon, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Brampton

Mond, A.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Boland, John

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Boulton, A. C. F.

Hall, Frederick

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Bowerman. C. W.

Halpin, J.

Morrell, Philip

Brigg, John

Harcourt. Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Morse. L. L.

Bright, J. A.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Murphy, John (Kerry. East)

Brooke. Stopford

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester)

Murray. Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.)

Bryce, J. Annan

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. Thomas R.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Napier, T. B.

Burke, E. Haviland-

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Nicholls, George

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Haworth, Arthur A.

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hayden, John Patrick

Nolan, Joseph

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles

Hazel, Dr. A. E. W.

Norman, Sir Henry

Byles, William Pollard

Hazleton, Richard

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hedges, A. Paget

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight

Henry, Charles S.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

O'Grady, J.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Cleland, J. W.

Higham, John Sharp

Parker, James (Halifax)

Clough, William

Hobart, Sir Robert

Partington, Oswald

Clynes. J. R.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Hogan, Michael

Pirie, Duncan V.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Hooper, A. G.

Pollard, Dr. G. H.

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.)

Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Radford, G. H.

Cooper, G. J.

Hudson, Walter

Rainy. A. Rolland

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

Hyde, Clarendon G.

Rea. Russell (Gloucester)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Reddy, M.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Jardine, Sir. J.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Cowan, W. H.

Jenkins, J.

Rees, J. D.

Cox, Harold

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Richards. T. F. (Wolverhampton. W.)

Crooks, William

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Crossley, William J.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Curran, Peter Francis

Kavanagh, Walter M.

Robertson, Sir G Scott (Bradford)

Davies, Ellis William (Eiflon)

Kekewich, Sir George

Robertson. J. M. (Tyneside)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Kilbride, Denis

Robson. Sir William Snowdon

Delany, William

Kincaid-Smith, Captain M.

Roch. Walter F. (Pembroke)

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Roche. Augustine (Cork)

Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lamont, Norman

Rose, Charles Day

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis

Rowlands, J.

Dillon, John

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Dobson, Thomas W.

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Donelan, Captain A.

Lehmann, R. C.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Duffy, William J.

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire. Wirral)

Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)

discussion when the business is postponed this day, be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of business."

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 267; Noes, 62.

Seddon, J.

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Wason, EL Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Seely, Colonel

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Shackleton, David James

Thorne. G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Whitbread. S. Howard

Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford)

Tomkinson, James

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Sheehy, David

Toulmin, George

White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Ure, Alexander

Wiles, Thomas

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Verney, F. W.

Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

Soares, Ernest J.

Villiers, Ernest Amherst

Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Vivian. Henry

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire N.)

Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)

Wadsworth, J.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Steadman, W. C.

Walsh, Stephen

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Strachey, Sir Edward

Walton, Joseph

Yoxall, James Henry

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Ward. John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wardle. George J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and the Master of Elibank.

Summerbell. T.

Waring, Walter

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Tennant. H. J. (Berwickshire)

NOES.

Anson. Sir William Reynell

Forster, Henry William

Oddy, John James

Anstruther-Gray. Major

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Parker. Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Balcarres. Lord

Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Balfour. Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.)

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Pretyman, E. G.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Renton, Leslie

Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Sandys. Col. Thos. Myles

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Heaton. John Henniker

Sheffield. Sir Berkeley George D.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hill. Sir Clement

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Stanier. Beville

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hunt, Rowland

Thomson. W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Jowett, F. W

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Clark, George Smith

Kerry, Earl of

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset. W.)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Lambton. Hon. Frederick Wm.

Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E.R.)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Lane-Fox. G. R.

Wilson. W. T. (Westhoughton)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Lee. Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

Winterton, Earl

Craik, Sir Henry

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

M'Arthur, Charles

Wyndham. Rt. Hon. George

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. Dixon

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Younger, George

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Magnus. Sir Philip

Du Cros, Arthur

Money, L. G. Chiozza

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Viscount Valentia and Lord Edmund Talbot.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Moore, William

Fletcher, J. S.

Morrison-Bell. Captain

Supply

CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE.

Army Estimates, 1909–10. (Progress.)

[Mr. EMMOTT in the Chair.]

Resumed proceeding on question, "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 183,200 of all ranks, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at home and abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian possessions, during the year ending March 31st, 1910."— [ Mr. Haldane. ]

When this Debate was interrupted last night we were engaged in discussing an Amendment to reduce the Army by 10,000 men. I am, of course, strongly opposed to that Amendment, and I shall support the Secretary of State in the Lobby if it goes to a Division. The hon. Member for Rochdale last night accused us on this side of having indulged in bitter and mischievous attacks on the right hon. Gentleman's policy, and he said that those attacks had so melted his heart that he meant to forego the scolding he had intended to administer, and he suggested that the right hon. Gentleman should be canonised instead. But he then stated that he intended to vote for the proposed reduction, which, if carried, would involve the destruction, not only of the right hon. Gentleman, but of the Government of which he is an ornament. That is a typical example of the kind of support which the right hon. Gentleman receives from his natural friends in this House. Really, when he considers the whole course of the debate, I think the right hon. Gentleman would almost prefer the frontal attacks of the right hon. Member for Croydon, for instance, to the sort of sympathy and assistance which he gets from his Friends behind him. But he regards all these matters with that invincible optimism, of which my admiration never fails; indeed, without it, I cannot imagine how any Secretary of State for War could enjoy his existence. The only doubt in my mind is whether the right hon. Gentleman succeeds in imparting that optimism to those who do not always agree with him in various quarters of the House. Last night he made an unusually short but extraordinarily interesting and important speech—a speech which I think will be often referred to in future military discussions, and one which I, at any rate, feel must be followed at no distant date by a wider and more comprehensive debate upon the whole question of our national defence. It is some five years since we had an opportunity of discussing the joint and absolutely inseparable problems of naval and military defence, and we were then promised periodical opportunities of bringing that discussion up to date. The right hon. Gentleman must recognise that the time is now ripe for another discussion of that kind, and that it is not only desirable but essential for the clear thinking of all concerned. I therefore make an appeal —perhaps I should address it to the Prime Minister—that at a convenient early opportunity in the present Session he should put down the Vote for expenses of the Defence Committee, in order that that confusion of thought, and the distorted conclusions which result from it, which are inevitable if these questions of naval and military defence are discussed in separate watertight compartments, may be avoided, and that there may be clarity of vision in regard to what is, after all, the most vital and important of all the problems with which this or any other Empire can be confronted. I gather from the right hon. Gentleman's nod that he will probably adopt that course; if so, I am sure—

I do not like to give a specific pledge at this moment, but I have thought for years past that our present system of discussing the Army and the Navy—as the hon. Gentleman says—in watertight compartments, under which the House never has an opportunity of reviewing the problems of national defence as a whole with regard to the service of the year, is extremely unsatisfactory. I do not know whether the Vote referred to would be the right one, but I view the hon. Gentleman's general suggestion with hearty sympathy and a desire, if possible, to give effect to it.

I ventured to make that specific suggestion because I think it is the only Vote upon which such a discussion would be in order. At any rate, the absolute necessity of some such discussion was amply demonstrated by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman last night. In that speech there were many notable admissions. The right hon. Gentleman said that it was obvious that the main question underlying practically the whole of the debate of the last two days had been: for what purposes are we fashioning this Army; for what purpose does it exist; and what use do we propose to make of it? But the right hon. Gentleman, after propounding these questions, did not answer them. He gave a general answer with regard to one point only, but he told us that all these points had been carefully and minutely considered by the Committee of National Defence, and that they had arrived at certain definite conclusions upon which the whole of the plans which the Government are submitting to Parliament are based. But when he came to specify the conclusions upon which the whole fabric of the Government's military and naval policy is founded, he only told us that we must have an Army for home defence sufficient to prevent an invasion by a force of somewhere between 70,000 and 100,000 men.

Of course. He then made an extraordinarily grave and significant admission, never before made by a responsible Minister in this House. He said:—

Still, with regard to this particular question, the right hon. Gentleman says it has been worked out most precisely, and that as a result it is necessary to have a regular Army calculated at a strength of exactly 29,000 less than the Army which he found on coming into office. So carefully has he worked this out that, whilst a reduction of 29,000 is necessary, wise, and based upon some great strategic principle, an additional reduction of 10,000, as suggested by the Amendment would reduce the whole country to a state of chaos and would be like trying to increase the efficiency of a man by lopping off his limbs with an axe. But are the right hon. Gentleman's calculations really so exact as that? Are not some of us justified in feeling that this lopping process has already gone a great deal too far, and that, so far from its being based on these great considerations, it is based not on any strategic principles at all, but merely upon political pressure and financial embarrassment? Presumably, the right hon. Gentleman has made equally exact calculations with regard to the necessary strength of the Territorial force. He has told us that it has got to be 310,000 or 315,000. But he has got only 240,000, even as the result of the late boom. How do we know we are safe in the interval? What reply has the right hon. Gentleman to make to the interesting criticism made by the military correspondent of "The Times" only yesterday? That writer says:— should be no excuse for saying that it is a party question, identified with only one side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman dealt with it, and I think by a line of special pleading against the contentions of the National Service League which would hardly secure him a verdict from an average jury of his countrymen. I would only say in regard to the general question that I do think it is rather unfair on his part to make this strong attack on those who are advocating compulsory service in a perfectly open way while at the same time he is eulogising and taking advantage of the action of those who are only introducing it by backdoor methods, and, as I think, in a most unfortunate way. I am not in the counsels of the National Service League, but I have no doubt that when they come to reply to the attack they, will be able to do so with effect. I do not think it is quite sufficient for him to excuse himself and his Department from producing any counter estimates to those of the National Service League simply by saying that there are several schemes in the field. Surely he can produce alternative estimates to contrast with one or two of the principal schemes for the benefit and information of the country. At any rate, with regard to the specific scheme of the National Service League, I think it is really the duty of his Department that they should prove to us and the country in what way, and to what extent, the calculations of this body—calculations which, I understand, have been verified by high financial and military authorities—are erroneous and misleading.

I have not got them. They have not yet told me what they are. It is no use saying that an expenditure of £4,000,000 in addition to the present cost of the Territorial Force would be required unless you tell us how much the cost is to be for food, clothing, and pay, whether you are going to keep them under canvas, and also what staff you are going to provide. If they will only give us a basis I will produce the figures.

I have no doubt that the National Service League will supply the right hon. Gentleman with all the necessary data, and I hope he will then furnish the House of Commons and the country with the results. I shall now return to the general argument of the right hon. Gentleman, which is partly spread over the two speeches he made in the course of the debate. I do not share the feeling of my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton, who said that after reading the speech which the right hon. Gentleman made on Thursday last he spent a happy week-end, feeling that the country was safe. I, on the contrary, spent a very miserable weekend, but that is a matter of individual taste. I do not propose to deal with all the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman, but I do wish to deal with two of the more important ones. His final argument in the speech of Thursday last—in fact, of the whole of the conclusion of that speech—was that if we attempted to make any departure from the system he had introduced it would be fatal, because it would lead to a great increase of expenditure and consequently to a further reduction in the regular Army. I thought at the time that that was a most wise and timely appeal coming from the right hon. Gentleman. He warned us of the dangers which some of us have foreseen for a long time. The right hon. Gentleman's words were:—

"If you take off anything inevitably you lead to a weakening of the regular Army, not only in the men but in the money, and therefore on strategical grounds I am for providing against shortage of men and money where shortage is most deleterious."

That is excellent advice, but does it not come rather late from the right hon. Gentleman? Has he forgotten that he has done more than other Minister of our time to reduce arid weaken the first line of our regular Army?

The right hon. Gentleman says that is not so. Is there any other Minister who has reduced the first line by 20,000?

He says he has added the special reserve. I thought it was not necessary to refer any more to them after the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon. Why has he done this? He has done this primarily in order to sustain and to nourish the second line of the Army, which is the special product of his own personal enthusiasm. His policy all through has been to make no increase in the Army Estimates, and to supply the finance of the Territorial Army at the expense of the regulars. I do not mean to say, of course, that this is necessarily his wish, or that he has had an absolutely free hand in regard to these matters,, but it is all due, I believe, to the undue and exaggerated deference which the right hon. Gentleman and the Government pay to the shrill scolding of certain gentlemen below the Gangway. [Cries of dissent.] I do not wish to take up these interruptions which proceed from two gentlemen who, I believe, will not be here to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman after the next general election. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman realises the effect of his constant efforts to pacify all sections of the House on these matters in presence of each other. When the right hon. Gentleman is dilating on reductions of men and money he turns his back squarely on these benches and addresses in animated undertones his friends behind him, and when he comes to the question of fighting efficiency or to state that we have a larger striking force than before, he turns his back on the hon. Member for the Falkirk Burghs and irradiates us once more with the sunshine of his military ardour. It is not, I think, very convincing to the blasé Parliamentarian.

I turn to what the right hon. Gentleman said in his speech as to the change of policy in regard to the artillery. I am sure all of us here rejoice exceedingly that he has seen the error of his ways in regard to this matter, and that he has recognised the force of the arguments which have been addressed to him almost continuously for three years from these benches. I think in this respect we may claim to be constructive rather than destructive critics, and if the right hon. Gentleman has the grace to confess that he has made a mistake I am sure we do not wish to crow over his change of front. I wish to ask what is the logical conclusion to which this change of front leads him? The right hon. Gentleman has announced that for so complicated and difficult work as that of field artillery in time of war yet six months' continuous training for the special reserves is not sufficient, and that three years' preliminary training is necessary if you are to produce the proper article. That is no news to artillerymen. We have all been stating it ever since the controversy began. But if the special reserves with six months' training is not good enough for field artillery in time of war, how can he suppose that the Territorial artillery, who have at most a few weeks' preliminary training and has no stiffening of regular soldiers in the batteries, is going to be anything but a danger to his own side in time of war? The right hon. Gentleman will say again that the Territorial artillery is not expected to fight after six months' training.

What we want to know is whether the artillery is going to be fitted to meet the only force that can be brought against it, namely, the picked artillery of a European Power? I think the whole idea of the six months' training is an idea which will live as a classic example of our national humour. At any rate, taking his maximum period of six months, on his own showing that period is not sufficient in which to train field artillerymen, and it seems to me that there is no way out of this dilemma. The right hon. Gentleman cannot fall back on the plea that the special reserve is physically or intellectually unfit for the work, for he has repeatedly told us that it is most excellent material. I think he recognises that it is not possible to tolerate any sham or risk in connection with the field artillery of our expeditionary force, although it may be said in the case of the Territorial Army that it will never be called upon to fight at all. We all hope that it may never be called upon. At any rate, we think it is useless to protest against what we think is a waste of money on field artillery. For good or ill—ill, I think—it has been launched on the thin ice of official optimism, and I hope that there may be no day of national reckoning. We may express the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not destroy meantime a single unit or cadre of the field artillery, because everyone of them, I think, and a great deal more, will be needed to stiffen the Territorial divisions if ever they are called upon to fight. In this connection I very much dislike the right hon. Gentleman's constant references to surplus field batteries. I do not think we have surplus batteries in the field forces. The right hon. Gentleman must be aware, of course, that in recent wars whole batteries of artillery, men, horses, and materials, have been wiped out of existence in a few moments by constant exposure to concentrated fire. He must know that British batteries have been captured wholesale, and may be again. Therefore, I do most earnestly hope that he will not regard any portion of our slender supply of trained artillery as surplus, because I am perfectly certain that every single battery we have got will be needed in the case of war.

I have said a surplus for the expeditionary force, but you must always keep a number of batteries at home for training drafts for batteries abroad. During the South African War we kept over 50 batteries at home. It is only in that sense I spoke of surplus batteries.

After all, in reading the right hon. Gentleman's speeches, it does not do to be diverted into mere criticism on the points which the Secretary of State has selected for discussion by the House of Commons. He has a perfect genius for detail, and there is great danger that in discussing those details we shall pass over larger and fundamental questions. What we really want to know, and all the rest is leather and prunella, is what are the requirements of this Empire with regard to our land forces, where those requirements are being supplied at the present time, and how we stand with regard to the two vital points of readiness for war over the seas and the defence of these Islands against invasion.

The right hon. Gentleman has not given any answer to those vital questions. The great doubt with regard to them has been expressed by high military authorities and by the military correspondent of the "Times" who told us there are three admitted defects in the Territorial Army—want of trained officers, want of numbers and want of training, of which it is almost impossible to imagine anything more damning. The right hon. Gentleman has not made any answer to that.

The hon. Member has mentioned the "Times" correspondent. Will he give the name of the "Times" correspondent?

Everybody knows it except perhaps the hon. Member himself. It has often been mentioned in these debates. It is Colonel Repington who is a particular supporter of the Minister for War. There has been no answer to that criticism, and I think it is because there can be no answer. The right hon. Gentleman whilst he makes no answer is perfectly ready to condemn anyone who ventures to express doubts as to his military policy. We unfortunate civilians he dismisses as being unpatriotic and unloyal, but that does not matter. The great soldiers, matchless in their experience of war, with lifelong experience of martial affairs, when they express their doubts he dismisses them by saying that their views are those of the early Victorians. I do not think there is anything early Victorian about that method of controversy except the deplorable bad taste which we have to associate with that otherwise glorious period.

I applied the adjective to colonels who stand at club windows and write letters to newspapers.

I advise the right hon. Gentleman to read his speech again because it is perfectly clear on the part of readers to whom he was referring, and it has been unanimously accepted that it was to Lord Roberts.

I take this opportunity of disclaiming it. It was said in reference exclusively to the colonels to whom I have referred and not to Lord Roberts.

I accept the disclaimer of the right hon. Gentleman with great pleasure. The idea was accepted, however, that Lord Roberts and his friends had been derided by the right hon. Gentleman. Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that there is no military power which has adopted the military system such as that which he supports to-day? Other countries have to deal with problems of invasion.

The right hon. Gentleman did not stop there, but as the result of examining his schemes he has come to the astonishing conclusion that since his three years of administration he has given to the British Army a fighting force equal to that of the whole German Army.

I did not hear the right hon. Gentleman, but at any rate he will perhaps not deny that on January 7th, after proclaiming the efficiency and the readiness for war of the regular Army, he said that he could mobilise four divisions by pressing a button. I always get nervous when Ministers of War begin to talk about pressing buttons, because all his- tory shows that when these words are used that particular Minister of War is absolutely unready for the emergency with which he may be confronted. As to the actual reduction in the first line of our regular forces he claims according to his speech of last night that the number is 29,000.

The hon. Member who moved the reduction quoted the right hon. Gentleman as saying: "I said I would take my own time and reduce the number by 29,000 men."

That is a misprint. It should be 20,000. I cannot help these mistakes. I have not the time to correct the proofs.

Of course, I accept the right hon. Gentleman's correction, but 20,000 is quite sufficient for my argument. We also see the disappearance of a large portion of our military forces, and a reduction of some 40,000 men in the second line. These are no flights of the imagination. They are cold, comfortless realities, and we have no reason for thinking that the end is in sight. But the right hon. Gentleman holds out bright hopes for the future. Only one certainty remains, that is that the reduction of our Army continues to be progressive, continuous and relentless. What the argument of the right hon. Gentleman amounts to is the strange one that the more you reduce the Army the greater power it becomes. That is too much for my limited imagination to grasp. I am only too ready and anxious to acknowledge the good work which the right hon. Gentleman has done, especially in the great question of organisation, but what he has done will not ensure the safety of the nation, and I find it impossible to believe in the absence of any explanation that by means of these reductions in the regular Army that he has added anything to our striking power beyond the seas, or anything to the safety of our hearths and homes, or even anything to the credit of his own administration.

The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of War has said many things which are not inconsistent with language used by the Leader of the Opposition; and, therefore, it is necessary to press very closely home matters which are of momentous importance. One of the reassuring things which I have heard from him was contained in a whisper across the table. These whispers are not always reported, because they are whispers. He pointed out the enormous difference between us and all other countries, and he said, "They do not live in islands." That is the whole question. They do not live in islands. When we are called upon to pay millions of money on our land forces we ought to remember that we are a maritime power. The question of our naval supremacy we cannot discuss in this debate. I was prepared for the question raised by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and who has pressed for a discussion of this very matter. There ought to be a general debate on the question when the Motion is made that the Speaker do leave the chair. The Leader of the Opposition, when he was Prime Minister, partly met us on the point, and allowed a general discussion to take place. The Prime Minister seems to have forgotten that, and he has made us a new offer; but a vote was put down formerly in order that we might have a general discussion on military and naval questions.

We have got a promise that this year at all events that discussion will take place. The hon. Member who has just sat down quoted a speech made by the hon. Member for Taunton, in which he declared that last Sunday he was happy because he felt the country was safe from the point of view of military preparation, and the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has said he spent a miserable Sunday because he felt the country was not safe. Personally, I am happy in the sense that I think the country is perfectly safe; not because of what we are discussing here to-day, but on account of the predominance of our Navy, and I could not justify our naval expenditure or policy except upon that ground. How are we to interpret the policy of the Secretary of State in view of that statement that we differ from other powers, because "we live on an island?" How are we to understand his policy as affected by the question of invasion? He quoted Lord Rosebery last night. He is a little suspect to some of us on this side of the House because he and those who agree with Lord Rosebery have never taken the view that was taken by the majority of the House of Commons and taken by our late Prime Minister as Prime Minister,—taken also by our party at the General Election, and common ground at that time. He was always suspect on the question of the home forces and home defence. When the Secretary of State for War made his first speeches here he made "blue water school" speeches, as he did to-day in his whispered declaration across the floor of the House about our differing from other powers because we live on an island. That is the blue water doctrine. I ventured to try and pin him down, but without success, and since then he has assumed the very opposite view. He wanted to get up a Territorial Army of 400,000 men and 23 Army corps. These words were most unwise words unless that was what he meant. There was always notoriously a great difference of opinion between the military and naval authorities upon this question, and when the Secretary of State first turned to his policy he told us the Navy answered for the safety of our shores. We got him to agree with the ex-Prime Minister (Mr. Balfour) in taking the blue water view. The ex-Prime Minister reprinted that speech; that was five years ago, and two years afterwards the Secretary of State endorsed it.

I referred to a definite statement made by Lord Rosebery on 4th December, in which he said that a change of opinion had been arrived at.

Yes, but all turned on how it came about. Sir William Nicholson would always give you one opinion notoriously, but the Committee of Defence had other advisers beside Sir William Nicholson and those distinguished generals, and they took the advice of the others, and not theirs. Sir William Nicholson never was a party to the statement made here about invasion.

As the right hon. Gentleman knows Sir William Nicholson's opinions better than I do, perhaps he would quote them.

We have some of them in evidence. But the argument I want to lay before the House is that these changes in policy mean a prodigious waste—an almost inconceivable waste—of national expenditure, because we have suddenly begun to throw away defence buildings all over the world. When the present Secretary of State came into office he told us that he had discovered that the land defences of Portsmouth and London were useless, but upon his policy of to-day they are amply justified. The result is that the work of the first six months of his tenure of office ought to be all undone again.

Let the right hon. Gentleman read his speech of that occasion again. Look at the enormous waste on naval and military works for the defence of the ports vouched for by the Admiralty. We are still paying upon these loans an enormous annuity for works that have been built, and that are totally unnecessary. Now we are turning again, and a policy is again being followed, and the result will be an enormous unnecessary expenditure on the Army and Naval establishments on land, so enormous that one can hardly realise what the expenditure on the Empire's land forces is. The pressure which has been given to the Home Defence view in the change from the Volunteers to the Territorial Army, in the insistence that we must have a particularly large figure for this home defence Army, and the urgency for a special reserve, was now not in view of the need of an expeditionary force, but in view of a large mobilisation here at home. All the arguments were changed for the strengthening of the local defence view, and it seems to me inconsistent with the attacks made upon Lord Palmerston's policy of 1859 and on the worst that occurred after that time. And also, I cannot but think that instead of being, as it was called with some exaggeration, a barrier against conscription, I cannot but think that the recent boom in general service came from the insistence on the need of Home defence, which causes people to say, "Let us enlist," or get other people to enlist because they do not as a rule enlist themselves. What is the change in our circumstances which has produced this change of policy? What change has there been? Such change as there has been is quite in the opposite direction. The change is reported to have come from the augmentation of the German fleet. The augmentation of the German fleet is supposed to menace a people living in an island home with commerce to preserve and over-sea possessions. If so, that is to be by naval instead of military increase. Last night the Secretary of State could only fish out as an answer to those who raised these questions, the Soudan and Somaliland. The biggest war you had in the Soudan was but a very limited demand, and Somaliland was but a camel corps war, which we carried on with but indifferent success. These were wars of an absolutely different kind from those which would account for a change of policy such as I confess seems to me to have taken place. This universal training in arms, which I think has been promoted by my right hon. Friend, and by the Territorial Army, is like an attack of the measles. We all have had it in our time. I remember years ago when the Radicals below the Gangway in this quarter called a meeting in favour of universal training. Many of them would be astonished to-day to learn that they ever supported such a scheme. Almost the whole House of Commons favoured it in those days, but we have all since ratted, and deserted that infantile agitation, and we have come to saner and sounder views. And these saner and sounder views have been put before the House with increasing force and more general acquiescence. Year by year reductions have been moved. A cheap system and a more effective system has been demanded, and is what we all want, and while we all agree that the Navy must grow, there may be a saving with efficiency on the Army. Instead of that there is no saving. We are spending 55 millions sterling on land forces for this Naval Country and in this Naval Empire. My right hon. Friend as to the Indian account thinks that the Indian Army—and rightly thinks—is a portion of the Army of the Crown disposable here, and there can be no doubt that is so, although technically it is the Army of a separate Legislature with no voice in the disposal of their Army.

Is there that deep design? That is the question which was asked by the last speaker. Is there this deep design about the actual number of our force? Is there any policy at all? Does not it depend upon the number of the recruits that you can obtain? It was admitted two years ago, and I confess I think so. The Government stated that their infantry battalions had fallen off with a strength of 730. 740. or 750 respectively, and that the home battalions were too small, and the drafts could not properly be kept up; and they said as soon as recruiting improved they were going to strengthen the battalions to 830, 840, and 850 men. That was an admitted matter. I admit that I am puzzled as to the state of things which still prevails. There was a passage in the right hon. Gentleman's speech which was not clear to me, and I do not know whether it is clear to hon. Gentlemen. Has the recruiting improved? It has been a year admittedly of bad trade, a year in which normal recruiting would improve, because it goes up and down with the decrease of trade, as it has done hitherto. The Secretary of State said at the beginning of his memorandum that recruiting has improved, had been very good, and that we took 2,254 more recruits in the year than in the corresponding period last year. But lastly he said that he had been attending to their teeth, and 3,560 recruits were accepted who would have been rejected in the previous year. That is a falling off of a thousand instead of an improvement of 2,554. This question affects the whole mobilisation arrangement. Then with regard to the enormous number of horses wanted, his own friend in the "Times" has pointed out that that means two years to mobilise, because he could not get them in this country for a European war. Of course, if it is a war with a single Power you might get them, but if it was anything like a general war you could not get them. The only reason why I mention this matter is that it illustrates a change of policy, as I think.

The first two speeches of the present Minister were directed to the policy of a country secure as regards its territory and trade by its predominant fleet and using its Army—a regular Army of high efficiency—as an expeditionary force to go across the sea. That was the whole point, and it was to be an expeditionary force for immediate dispatch, not in the German sense of three days or in the French cavalry sense of the next day, but in the British sense, a short period for us. We have never been famous for our mobilisation, and its speed is relative, and it is impossible for us to have eight French cavalry divisions ready the next morning. Of course the horses were an essential part of that immediate mobilisation scheme, which was questioned at once by the Leader of the Opposition on the day that it was first announced. It was our large expeditionary force, now increased and not diminished, which was the foundation of the vast expenditure, and also the buttress of that large expenditure in future, preventing the diminution which might otherwise by a change of system have taken place. My right hon. Friend not only changes his view, however, but he emphasises it, as he modifies it, with a blunt pertinacity which is perhaps right with regard to the Empire as a whole. You pretend that you could equal the German Power, but is it not the worst thing for us as a Naval Power to state to all the world that which is not true, that we have as many Army Corps, or may have as many Army Corps, as they have.

It is most damaging in Australia, and of that I think anyone who knows Australia can have no doubt. At the Colonial Conference the right hon. Gentleman said that Australia agreed, and he convinced some hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite, and one hon. Member opposite alluded to the enormous rapidity of the advance in favour of universal service which has taken place in Australia. But there is a decline in the number of men there and an enormous decline in the money they spend, and they have not passed the Bill. I do not know on what he bases his view that there is an advance, although that advance may come. I do not desire that it should not come, I desire to see Australia in a state of approved efficiency for defence. I have gone so far sometimes as to complain that nothing was done with the New Zealand Bill when it was passed and became an Act; but anyone who knows Australia knows how delicate the operation is of putting anything of that sort into black and white, and of all the unwise speeches that could be made on the subject I think that Army Corps speech was the most unwise from the point of view of obtaining Australian co-operation.

The right hon. Gentleman says that they agreed at the Colonial Conference. I do not want to bore the House with Blue Books, but has the right hon. Gentleman looked them over? I agree with him that we desire to see Australian co-operation, but they did not agree, and they asked him not to talk about it. Mr. Deakin said they were associated with peace and not with war, and their force of permanent men was, and always will be, small, as their men had to earn their own livelihood by other callings. He said:— Ward, who insists on the popular basis of the voluntary system. When their co-operation in the war was talked of, Mr. Deakin said: "Yes, and many of them suffered for it afterwards." All through for 20 pages there was a constant current of criticism and of doubt.

Well, you did at the time, because you were keenly conscious of the difficulty.

My right hon. Friend is in some confusion. He is talking about a discussion with Mr. Smart.

Very well, we will put that down to Mr. Smart, but it was said on their behalf that they wanted to have their voluntary system carried on without interference of any kind from oversea. Mr. Haldane, it appears, referred to the General Staff, and said no General Staff was contained in their scheme. Sir Frederick Borden said: "Precisely; we have not said much of that." I think that was a hint not to say too much about it. I ask hon. Members to read these objections. The words of the resolutions were all toned down to please them at the conference all through. At the request of Mr. Deakin all words pointing to immediate action were left out and the Colonies never accepted the view expressed in a memorandum put before them that the Army to take the field must consist of troops who were as efficient and as highly trained as those they were to meet in battle. The whole difference between the Colonies and the War Office was the difference between those who supported volunteers and those who tried, like the right hon. Gentleman, to make them as like the regular Army as possible. How is it that all this time has gone past and there has been a constant decline in the number of men of all kinds, permanent and volunteer, kept on in the Australian Colonies, and a constant decline in the amount of money which they have spent on their scheme. I hope strongly that their strength will increase, but I confess that to tell them that they are forming part of a general scheme which will give 46 divisions, the same number as the German Army, seems calculated to set them off and make them go in the opposite direction rather than co-operate in your scheme. The curious difference between the whole Australian policy and your policy was illustrated by a remark of Mr. Deakin's upon the subject of the conduct of the War Office. He recommended that all military officers should be kept out of the management of clerical duties, and that they should be conducted entirely by civilian clerks. I am only giving that as an example of the difference between their conception and that which you have tried to force upon them.

The Secretary of State has spoken of this policy as forming a bulwark against conscription. He told us three weeks ago that the movement for compulsory universal service was stronger than it had ever been in this country before. Yet two years ago, when he first took office, he told us he had first killed and then buried conscription. How does he reconcile that with the fact that there has been this boom? Is it not at least possible, at all events that we who dislike the inflated tone, as we think, of the speeches the right hon. Gentleman has made up and down the country, and who dislike the scale of expenditure upon land forces as compared with that upon sea forces, might be right in supposing that the tone of those speeches has contributed towards that boom in the idea of universal compulsory service? There is one point on which the views of many who advocate universal military service by compulsion, as applicable to this country, deserve and receive consideration from some who do not agree with them. There are some who think that, though useless in itself, and even cumbersome, it might indirectly give you things which you want—more men willing to go across the seas and also more officers. The officer difficulty is a real one. The hon. Baronet the Member for Marylebone showed you yesterday that you have less than half the lieutenants you require. The deficiency of men is a sham one. You fix an artificial number far too great for your Territorial Army, and say it is insufficient, and every man should come forward and, if necessary, should be compelled to come forward. That is a fraud. But the deficiency of officers has always been a real one. Why do not these men work as officers in the Territorial Army instead of trying to put compulsion on the working men? I am not going to revive the question of the circular of the Alliance Company. Lord Rothschild, I think, took an unwise step in the first speech which gave the impulse to that policy. He has taken a similar course upon another matter of foreign investments, from which we thought we should have been free in his case, at all events. If those who recommended this policy, and took the very unwise step, in the interests of the Territorial Army itself, of trying to enforce this indirect compulsion and make men think, at all events, that their livelihood is jeopardised, would use their influence with their friends to work as officers in the force which has replaced the militia, they would be doing a real service to the country, because there is no doubt officers for the force are urgently needed. You do not by compulsory training in arms get men more easily and more cheaply for the permanent force. In Switzerland they have now a considerable permanent force of paid men always on duty. They call them Frontier Guards and Fortress Guards, but there they are. They are regular troops, and they have to pay them higher than we pay our troops, and admittedly they do not get the best class of troops as a general rule. It does not even give them the indirect advantages that some people expect to find.

With regard to cost and the contribution of India. The cost, of course, is admittedly what I have put at £55,000,000 a year upon the land forces. India has paid an increased contribution. She has had no voice in the increase of that contribution. The cost of the British Army in India and the home charges for that British Army in these Estimates have all been increased in the last six years, and there has been no diminution in the main heads of charge since the prospects of India have been more peaceful as regards her external frontier. That is a wholly different thing from any question of possible rioting in the towns because different arrangements in different places, and far less costly, are required for internal than for external service. The costly service is the building of barracks on the frontier, the new cantonments and the many things which have run away with money. The view of the majority of the Indian Expenditure Commission was that we should be most careful not to throw upon India any charge which is not thrown on the Colonies. The view of the present Under-Secretary of State for India was that the payment made by India was far too great. We have never asked any Colony to pay upon this scale. When the Treasury is appealed to as to the rate at which our troops should be paid for by Egypt they fix even as their maximum demand a scale altogether lower than that applied to India. Then my right hon. Friend suggests that it was intended to modify this scale, but many of the best informed people believe the modification would be in the opposite direction. There were repeated debates upon this matter, and there was much evidence given upon it before the Commission; and this charge, which many persons with no interest in the matter thought already unduly hard on India, is at this most unfortunate moment increased against Indian opinion. My right hon. Friend takes credit to himself for having been generous to India, and for having let her off. He says he and his colleagues decided that they must do something for India, and it takes this form that he, on the most extreme War Office view, says India ought to have paid additionally per year more than £500,000 and that he let her off with £300,000. That he calls an agreement between himself and his colleagues representing India. Two Members of the Cabinet which is about, with my support, to rob henroosts, start off together, and then suddenly one says, "I will go for the Indian gold mine," and the other says he will stand in his path. The net result of the transaction is that they come back with an additional £300,000 a year.

If this is to be done against the protest of the Government of India, and all the facts are to be concealed from and refused to the House of Commons, what is to prevent them next year, when they want £250,000 more, from saying, "We must now exact from India the full figure that we agreed last year she really ought to pay, although we let her off and did something for her"? It is the first time this thing has ever happened. It has always been laid down on these occasions that there should be agreement after discussion between the two Governments, and whenever that agreement has not been brought about upon financial transactions the papers have always been laid before the House of Commons. On this occasion there is no agreement. Papers are refused, and of all the unwise and indefensible transactions, absolutely reversing the whole of our past traditions in regard to the apportionment of cost—no words can be too strong to condemn this transaction.

I entirely agree as to the desirability of having some opportunity to discuss the whole problem of defence on one Vote. Many of us have raised this question in the past, and I am sure we were glad to hear that the Prime Minister will consider the matter with the view of arranging that such discussions should take place. Then we shall have the advantage also of listening to the Leader of the Opposition, whose opinions on these matters are based on such wide knowledge and to whom we always listen with such great respect.

With regard to the particular Vote before us, it is moved to reduce the regular Army by 10,000 men. I confess that has a familiar sound to me, and it is done on the ground, firstly, I understand, that we really have too many, and, secondly, that the system on which the regular Army is now based is a bad system. On the other hand, we have the argument of the hon. Member for Fareham, who cannot sleep at nights for his anxiety for the safety of the country, and who thinks there are not enough regular soldiers. On the Colonial matter my right hon. Friend was hardly accurate in supposing there is any divergence of opinion whatever now on the lines proposed by my right hon. Friend for a general staff for the whole Empire.

I stated expressly on a former occasion that they have agreed to a general staff.

One might have inferred from the general tone of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks that there was not that cordial co-operation between the self-governing Colonies and this country on the question of the general staff which, I am happy to think, so far as my opinion goes, does absolutely exist. So far we have received the most cordial acceptance of that proposal from the two great Dominions of Canada and Australia, and they seem to be entirely at one with my right hon. Friend in thinking it is highly desirable that there should be an interchange of scientific thought with a view to a common system of leadership in the field, in the event of war, between this country and our great self-governing Dominions.

Now let us come to the more controversial part of the question raised by those who think the Army is too big and ought to be smaller. Many of us at the beginning of this Parliament moved to reduce the regular Army by 10,000 men. The question is, Can we reduce it further-firstly, with regard to numbers and cost alone, and, secondly, with regard to the system which has been adopted?

With regard to the numbers and the cost, I find at that time the strength of the establishment for which the money was asked was 204,000. That was in 1905–6. To-day it is 182,000; this makes a reduction of 22,000 men. We asked for 10,000 and we got 22,000. You may take various totals, of course. You may include or exclude the pool. The great thing is to compare like with like. Comparing like with like there is a reduction shown in the establishment regulars, minus the pool, of 22,000.

Perhaps I had better not go into a long explanation of what the pool is. If the hon. Member will look at the Army Estimates he will find at the bottom of page 12 a number which is known in the parlance of the office as the pool. The difference between including and excluding it in this case would be only about 1,000. Let that pass because we are dealing only with broad figures. Comparing like with like there has been a reduction as compared with 1906 of 22,000 men. I make a present of that to the hon. Gentleman who cannot sleep at nights for fear of invasion. Then with regard to cost: We estimated that the reduction of 10,000 would make a reduction in the long run of nearly a million. We have now got a reduction approximately of 2½ millions. In those days the cost was £18,719,000; to-day it is £16,236,000. I am taking the regular forces of the Crown.

If the right hon. Gentleman looks at page 12 of Vote A he will see how the number of 182,000 men is arrived at, and also what the cost £16,236,000 represents. I have not verified for myself the figures from the War Office, but I have no reason to doubt their accuracy. My right hon. Friend will be able to tell the right hon. Gentleman what items are included in the £16,236,000. The point I wish to make is that there has been a reduction of 2½ millions whichever way you take it, comparing one with the other. If the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for the Forest of Dean complains that although you have got this great reduction both in numbers and in cost we still retain the Cardwell system, and if my hon. Friends below the gangway say that this system which has been retained is a bad system and should go, and that they mean to divide the House against the right hon. Gentleman for that reason, I ask them to look back on the past when this Par- liament first met and probably had more power to make the great revolution that this change would be than it now has, and when it was proposed that we should abandon the Cardwell system and adopt another system which undoubtedly would be cheaper and which many people think would be as effective, and which carried to its extreme, would result in the proposals of the late Sir George Chesney of .a much smaller force, much more highly trained, with an infinitely greater acquaintance with the technical art—when that was proposed and after debate it came to a division, the present House of Commons, by a majority of 296 to 56, emphatically insisted on this very point, that they would not change the system. They supported my right hon. Friend.

Merely in obedience to the Prime Minister and the ordinary whips, but we want to reduce the Army by 50,000.

It is news to me that my hon. Friend has always obeyed the whips. I thought that he and all the members of this House when they thought strongly on a matter voted according to their convictions quite irrespective of what anybody else might say. I believe it still. On a matter of great importance voting in that way by this immense majority, this House decided to stick to the Cardwell system. We must take the world as we find it. We have been obliged to stick to the Cardwell system. The right hon. Gentleman has done it very well. He has reduced the cost by 2½ millions, and I must confess that by a happy series of accidents he has been able to do it without any reduction in our safety abroad. A very-great part of his reductions abroad have been in the forces in South Africa. Owing to events there, I think that Members of all sections of the House will agree now that the maintenance of large forces there for the purposes for which they were sent there six or seven years ago is no longer necessary.

Would my hon. Friend explain why it is still necessary to retain 11,000 troops in South Africa?

My hon. Friend knows that one reason is that the troops are so exceedingly popular there with the population, and it is with the greatest difficulty my right hon. Friend can withdraw any troops owing to the protests of the leaders of South African opinion. Because we got a reduction we are asked for more. Because an overwhelming majority of the House has forced the right hon. Gentleman to stick to the Cardwell system we are not free agents in this matter. If I were a perfectly free agent I should vote as I voted before.

I wish to know whether at the beginning of this Parliament when a reduction of 10,000 was proposed the hon. Gentleman did not say that under the Cardwell system we could reduce by much more than 10,000 men, and in a previous Parliament the hon. Gentleman took up that ground?

No. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman who has acted with me in these matters so often should so completely misconceive the views I took. I cannot weary the House by reading my speech on that occasion, though I have it here with me now. The whole point of my contention then was that you could not reduce the Army very much unless you abandoned the Cardwell system, and in many speeches here in this House I have cursed and condemned the Card-well system because you cannot reduce the Army very much. I congratulate my right hon. Friend on what is to me a most marvellous achievement in reducing it so much by the Cardwell system.

I must confess that it was with strange feelings I heard the hon. Member for Fareham say that he spent a miserable week-end because he was alarmed for the safety of his country. The hon. Gentleman in saying that does show a very extraordinary degree of timidity, and yet by nature he is not of that kind. I know something of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's past life. I happen to know of at least one occasion on which he performed a service for his country involving the most extraordinary degree of personal risk without for one moment drawing back on account of the danger; and I have no doubt that he would do it again. But when he is in this House never is there so great a poltroon. What is he afraid of when he sleeps so badly at the week-end—a sudden invasion? He seems to see the German hosts descend upon the peaceful inhabitants of his district. He apprehends that a certain force of foreigners will fall upon these shores. He is not one of those who believe in a very large invasion. Perhaps he will take the total of an invading force, as was taken by a right hon. Gentleman opposite, as 70,000 men as a maximum, or he might put it at something more—say 100,000 men. He says the Territorial is unfit to meet the foreigner because of his lack of training, and I agree with that. He therefore says you must measure the value of a soldier by the number of weeks or of years' training he has had. If that be the case, the soldier who has had a year's training will be worth a great deal less than the soldier who has had seven years' training. But the soldiers of all foreign Powers have two years' training, and our regular troops have seven years' training. Therefore, unless you assume that the Englishman by nature is a much greater coward and has a much less aptitude for war than the foreigner, then on the hon. Gentleman's own showing he cannot escape from the conclusion that the British soldier must be the superior one.

That argument really has no justification at all. What we were considering was the preliminary training. We were considering a preliminary training not of two years, but of two weeks.

The hon. Gentleman cannot escape so easily. He has backed up those who back up a sudden invasion. He says you cannot trust the Territorial Army because it is not trained, and it therefore follows that the longer you train a soldier the better he will be. Therefore it follows that troops trained for seven years are better than troops trained for two years. It also follows that one British soldier is better on an average than one foreign soldier

I think we are agreed now. Let us consider what the foreign invader would have to meet. He would have to meet English soldiers with the colours who are, ex hypothesi, superior to their enemies. The foreign invader would have to meet about 129,000 regular troops. Within 24 hours after you have got your first reserve that number would have been increased to 253,000. Let us leave out the Territorial Army and the special reserve, and I will ask the hon. Gentleman opposite and Lord Roberts and those who think with him in regard to this matter of a sudden invasion, what is it they fear? Are we to understand that 253,000 British soldiers are no longer equal to 100,000 foreigners? I can never find an answer to that question. There used to be an old saying— The motto according to the hon. Member opposite will now have to be altered in order to read— what I term the Territorial Forces, but after all they are very much like the old volunteers and yeomanry, only they are much better organised. I do not take the view that they are so utterly useless to face the foreign invader. I read in a newspaper which favours the view of the hon. Member opposite that 100 members of our Territorial Force would not be equal to one picked soldier of a certain foreign Power. I have seen a good many foreign armies in the field during manœuvres, and I have also seen our volunteers at manœuvres. Of course, I have not seen foreign soldiers in actual war, but I have seen our own volunteers in action, and, speaking for myself, if I had the choice, say, of leading the London Scottish in war and a battalion of troops belonging to a foreign nation, after I had had command of them for a fortnight I would prefer the London Scottish for any purposes of war. That may be an extreme view. [OPPOSITION cries of "Hear, hear."] There are others who know infinitely more of war than myself or anyone in this House who have been in many wars, British and foreign, and I think the soldier who knows most of war by actual experience and knowledge is Sir Ian Hamilton. He has had the greatest experience in modem warfare, and if anyone will, take the trouble to read his remarks at Andover—in which he puts in almost similar language his belief in the absolute efficacy of the forces of Great Britain, even raised on a voluntary basis after short training, and declares that they are able to give a good account of themselves against approximately equal numbers—they will see that the man who knows most of war in this country is the man who thinks the most of the possibilities of the Territorial Army.

I have endeavoured to show that we are in this country in no imminent danger from the foreigner. I have also shown that a great reduction in the Army has been taking place under the scheme of my right hon. Friend, whom I have supported all through ever since I first tried to get him to abandon the present Army system, and failed. But apart from my co-operation, with my right hon. Friend, I would still continue to co-operate with a system which I think has done a very great work for the defence of this country.

I do not quite understand on what principle those who are responsible for directing the speeches from the Government front bench make their selections. I remember a speech only a few days ago on the subject of Tariff Reform. The spokesman against that measure was chosen from that bench by the Government deliberately, and he proceeded at once to explain that he did not agree with the Free Trade programme, which I thought was the one point which united them. Then the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down was put up to defend the New Hebrides Convention, he having been the protagonist against any system of indentured labour.

The right hon. Gentleman has forgotten the facts. I was the protagonist against indentured labour, but I vehemently defended the Government against the wholly unjustifiable attacks made upon them in regard to the New Hebrides Convention from below the Gangway.

He was the protagonist against indentured labour. Now what is the opinion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman? He has mainly interested himself in this House in two questions. In the first place on the question of indentured labour, on which we have just heard his interruption; and in the next place in the abolition of the Cardwell system and the reduction of Army Estimates. Now, as I understand it, the hon. Gentleman has been selected from among all the talent on that Bench to deal with a matter not within his department, with which his department has nothing whatever to do. ["Oh."] What has his department to do with it?

Surely our Colonial Empire beyond the seas is greatly interested in Army matters, indeed, a great deal of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks were devoted to the question of Colonial policy during the course of this very debate.

It is quite true that in that sense his department is deeply interested in the Army, and so is every department. The President of the Board of Trade might intervene because of the trade of this country; the President of the Local Government Board might intervene because, as we have been told, the provisions adopted by the Secretary for War in the autumn largely conduced to the relief of unemployment. In that sense, of course, every department may be shown to be interested, the Foreign Office more than any other. All I meant was it is not within the departmental activities of the hon. Gentleman to deal with Army questions, and I am still puzzled why it is that the Secretary for War, instead of calling upon his natural ally who sits upon his right, has called upon a very unnatural ally who sits upon his left.

What did the hon. Gentleman say about the Cardwell system and the Secretary of State for War? He said that of course if you abolish the Cardwell system you have very great economy, but then this House has determined in the full youthful flush of victory—this House has coerced the Secretary of State for War into preserving against his will this antiquated, costly, and inefficient method of conducting our military affairs. Is the Secretary of State going to endorse that statement? He knows perfectly well that the Government, when they came into office, considered this very question of the Cardwell system, and on its merits came, rightly or wrongly, to the conclusion that the Cardwell system is the only possible method of carrying on the work of the Empire. It was not the House of Commons who rushed them into the Cardwell system, it was they who advised the House of Commons with such powers of coercion as a Government with a large majority possess—it was they who persuaded the House of Commons that the Cardwell system was the right one. I am not criticising that decision, but for the hon. Gentleman to get up and explain that we are now suffering under a costly and inefficient military system, because the House of Commons forced the Government to maintain the antiquated Cardwell plan against the will of the Government is really a grotesque travesty of the facts of the case, and I am convinced that he will not get the smallest support from either of the two Gentlemen who are connected with the War Office and have to defend its policy.

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that they all voted against their convictions? Why, of course, the hon. Gentleman knows the House of Commons only supported the Government which they were sent to support on a very important cardinal principle. I do not attach blame to the War Office for their decision. If there is blame, let it fall upon the ample and vigorous shoulders of the right hon. Gentleman who is responsible for the conduct of that office. What said the hon. Gentleman on the critical question of the numbers of the Army? He proceeded to attack those who thought that the Army was too small, then too large. I myself am one of those who never concealed my regret at the reduction, and never saw my way to agree to the reduction of the regular Army. I think it is very serious. It is not absolutely demonstrable by any Secretary of State for War in the world, upon scientific principles, precisely what the number of men you ought to have. You cannot lay down—it is unreasonable to request it—what the number of your arms should always be. There is a large margin of doubt as to the precise number of men you should have. But, let me say, that anybody who will survey the history of the British Army, not for five or for ten years, not for one generation or even two generations, but who will take a survey of the whole history of the Army, but will say that it is always oscillating between hasty and very costly expansion in time of difficulty, and rapid and quite extraordinary reduction the moment the pressure is over. Therefore, nobody can doubt that, on the whole, it has proved a rather costly system.

All parties are liable, if blame attaches to the party system. It is almost an inevitable result of the movements of popular feeling screwed up to great sacrifices in times of great emergency, followed by a cold fit, a fit of discouragement, and a feeling of the undoubted heavy burden of expenditure producing a reaction greater than the circumstances warrant, and lowering the forces of the Crown below the true point of safety, shown over and over again by the fact that the forces are again to be raised when some difficulty has occurred.

I should not have risen to take part in the debate merely to reply to the hon. Gentleman, who attributed to me the preposterous idea that after the soldier has been fully trained—which, I presume, would not be under two years—the hon. Member assumed in six months—he steadily improves each successive year in which he remains in the ranks. I never suggested anything of that sort. I never suggested that a man who was six years with the colours was three times as good as the two-years' man. What I said was— what everybody knows to be a fact—that you must try and find out in what period you can train a soldier—a very difficult profession—and, having found that time, you must, if you can manage and arrange it, give him a training which does fit him to carry out his duties. Every foreign country thinks that that training should be two years. The hon. Member thinks it can be done easily in six months. I am not sure whether he does not think six weeks. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "A fortnight."] The London Scottish Regiment, of whom he spoke in just credit, was instanced. I believe he said that it could be pitted against any German regiment, [Cries of "No, no."] He mentioned Germany. [Renewed cries of "No."] I say he did mention Germany. The question is perfectly immaterial. The hon. Gentleman said he would gladly lead the London Scottish with a fortnight's training in the year against a foreign fully-trained regiment.

No, no, no. It would be impossible to cover the whole ground; but what I said was that if by the accident of birth it had been my privilege to lead the London Scottish, that after a fortnight's training following a year's work I would do so. The London Scottish are very highly trained—far more highly trained than many soldiers who are supposed to have a great deal more training, because they are at it all the year round.

The London Scottish is a most magnificent regiment. I now understand the hon. Gentleman to say that with a fortnight's training, in addition to the training they have all the year round, they would do the work demanded of them. That, you must admit, makes a considerable difference in the estimate.

But the point on which I rose to speak is that of defence, in respect of which I have been mentioned by almost every speaker who has dealt with this large aspect of the subject. Now, Sir, he said that the general principles, which, on behalf of the Defence Committee—and I believe still with the assent of experts of both Services on the Committee—at the time of which I speak, I believe the principles that I ventured on behalf of that Committee to make out four or five years ago, are as applicable at the present time as they were then. What are they? The principles are these, that in order to secure, not from raids, not even from important raids, but from invasions, you ought to do two things, each of which is insufficient without the other. You ought to provide a sea force, a naval force, which would make it absolutely impossible for any foreign Power to hope to deal successfully with this country by invasion unless they brought a very large force across the sea; and you have got to keep at home a force sufficiently large to prevent a raid being effectual. In other words, you have to keep a force at home so large that you can never be invaded successfully—if invaded in force to make it quite impossible. These are the two things. Supposing you have no force at home at all. Supposing we were as defenceless as the Australian aborigines when the whites first landed in Australia, a raid of 10,000 or 12,000 men would bring us to our knees. You must have some land force in order to compel the enemy to attack you in force, so that when that force, which he has collected, transports, troops, and so on, is coming oversea—a body slow, unwieldy and generally unmanageable—your sea forces can deal with it effectively. That is the whole problem of invasion. If adequate forces could be transferred across the Channel, or North Sea, or the Atlantic to our shores in a single swift liner, no naval force could prevent it. It is obvious what you require is to compel the enemy, if he tries to invade you, to invade you with a force so unwieldy and difficult to manage that you can deal with him effectively with your sea force. That was the problem I remember I endeavoured to state, very imperfectly, four or five years ago. I believe that is the one problem which ought to be stated now.

Let the House mark this: that the problem alters as the conditions alter. The conditions alter, but not the broad elements, not the governing principles. The conditions ought to be examined and reexamined—I do not say every year—but constantly, and the only machinery to examine it is the Defence Committee, which is composed not only of Members of the Government, who are responsible for the general policy, but experts who are responsible for the management and for giving advice to both Services. That is the only body that can give it. It has been publicly stated, I think, in another place, and it has been practically acknowledged here and elsewhere, that the Defence Committee have re-examined this. I feel confident that no re-examination has induced them to alter the general principles that the Defence Committee laid down four or five years ago. I think it extremely unlikely since that year—the time that has elapsed since—a time of great and rapid changes in vital and important particulars, that some modification of the original view may not have been forced from those who are responsible to us, and to the people at large for the safety of these realms.

I do not dwell upon that question, but I gather that an assurance has been given by the Government that there will be an opportunity of again raising this question. I hope when that is done we shall have from the Prime Minister what he is eminently capable of giving us, a perfectly clear statement of the results, as far as the public interests will allow, which the Defence Committee has arrived at on this important matter. I do not think I should have done my duty to the House and the Committee if I had not, after the appeal made to me, taken this opportunity of making these two statements which I venture to repeat, that, in the first place, I have not in any way changed my view upon the general principles and general policy with regard to this question of invasion. At the same time, I should be the last person to think it either wise or right to adhere to the details of the conclusions arrived at five years ago, unless, after careful and critical re-examination, all the facts of the case show that no essential changes have occurred in the position in which the country is placed. If I am quoted again, I hope I shall be quoted with all the reservations that statement properly carries. But let me say this: I have always, when I was responsible as Prime Minister, insisted upon the necessity of what were the volunteers and are now the Territorial Army. My only regret is that we cannot even now, with all the means of organisation—the value of which I most gladly admit, so far as I am concerned—the right hon. Gentleman has introduced, make them really efficient at the outbreak of a war. Without being as optimistic as I should like to be with regard to the mobility of our regular Army, of our striking force, and of our fleet, I should like to have a system which would make us absolutely independent of the whereabouts of the six divisions of our regular Army. We are not. I am afraid we will have to admit that if war were to break out the country would not allow, and ought not to allow, any very large section of the regular Army to go abroad until they thoroughly understood in what position we were with regard to oversea invasion, and until a much greater degree of training had been given to our Territorial Army. Though I do not want to be pessimistic, I think it only fair to state that there is another contingency we have to keep in mind. It is this— we ought to survey the possibilities of the future and the various causes that might arise. We have to admit that the Army might be sent abroad for some defensive purposes either to India or elsewhere. We might feel ourselves absolutely at peace and in harmony with every great Naval Power; we might not see the necessity of dislocating industries by calling out and giving six months' training to the Territorial Army; and then we might have sprung upon us, in the absence of the regular Army, some scheme of attack. I do not say that it will be successful, I do not say that it will even probably be successful, but I do think that we ought to put to ourselves the simple dilemma which was presented to us by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down—namely, that either you are to have the whole of your regular forces at home in the case of invasion, or you have to so train your home Army, you have so to secure against every possibility of maritime attack that you may send out your regular Army and be perfectly safe. You cannot divide the two possibilities of this plain and simple illustration. If I leave these very general observations, which I am sure will receive more critical review when we come to a later debate, and if I refer to the actual constitution of the Army, let me say that I am not one of those who ever greatly liked joining in an attack upon a Minister of War on whatever side he may sit. I have had too long experience of these debates. I have heard successive Ministers of War on one side or other criticised and constantly attacked, and criticised with very small appreciation of the difficulty which is inevitable in any system whatever based upon the voluntary principle. That does not mean I am dealing with compulsion in any form; I am not touching on that vexed question. What I am saying is that the voluntary system has inevitable difficulties which can always be thrown in the face of the Secretary of State for War, and which he is quite incapable of denying, or instance, I heard the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean reproach my right hon. Friend just now with the fact that after all the size of the Army depended on recruiting and the possibility of recruiting.

That is very largely true; but that is not the fault of either the Secretary for War or anybody else.

I do not believe that a theory can be worked to too precise a point when you are dealing with so difficult an instrument as a voluntary army. I admit myself, as far as I have heard the argument, that I am profoundly dissatisfied with the constitution of the special reserve. I listened to the debate and I frankly admit that I cannot see that this 50,000 men who ought to be 70,000—

The establishment is 50,000. Ten thousand consists of quite another class, and we are within two or three thousand of our full establishment.

I did not know that the numbers were so satisfactory as that. The right hon. Gentleman knows, of course, and we all know, that the question of officers is one of extreme difficulty, and we do not seem to be on the way to solving it. One of the objections many of us felt from the very beginning is that the men and the officers do not know each other and are not in the same relation as the men and officers of other battalions. Then again, referring to the Territorial Army, I do not see how the right hon. Gentleman can ask people to sacrifice more than they are. You are making it as easy for them and as pleasant as possible. Perhaps more can be done in that way, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman desires to do all he can; but in the end you always come back to this, not how much do I want, but how much can I get. That is the fundamental difficulty which must fall upon every Minister of War, and make every Minister of War in turn the appropriate butt of hostile criticism. That criticism, no matter who the Minister is, or what the Government may be, is true for this reason: however you arrange matters, if it be granted that you must have a highly trained force for oversea work, that requires behind it something to supplement it and provide it with drafts and to act as a reserve, then you come to something like the plan of the right hon. Gentleman. You may call it by any name you like, but it always comes to short service in some form. There are many ways in which that short service can be arranged. Possibly the method adopted by the Government is not the best. I am sure it is open to most serious criticism, as, I dare say, other methods are open to serious criticism; but I, for my part, am unwilling to make attacks on the right hon. Gentleman's plan or on the way it is worked out until I have clearly in my own mind something that is better. Well, I am not in that position. I have discussed Army reform for 20 years now, and as to the right hon. Gentleman's plan, strong as I think many of the comments and attacks made on it have been, after all I only mourn, chiefly mourn, the destruction of a certain number of really good militia and yeomanry regiments. That loss seems to me a very serious one that we have sustained, beyond the irreparable loss, of course, in respect of the regular Army. If the other part of the right hon. Gentleman's plan has deficiencies, I am ready to grant, at the same time, that he has really earnestly set to work to provide some kind of organisation for what used to be the volunteers, and which is now the Territorial Army. However imperfect they may be as soldiers, however incapable they may be with their present degree of training, for meeting on an equality any foreign troops, I still think that the organisation which the right hon. Gentleman has given them may in some future time prove absolutely invaluable for the safety of the country.

We have listened. I am sure, with great appreciation to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. He has approached this extremely difficult and very delicate subject with a full sense of responsibility, and I think his speech forms a very happy contrast to the speeches previously delivered by my hon. Friend, and by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Croydon. The Leader of the Opposition has shown very clearly to the House the position of the Secretary for War in resisting the various kinds of attack to which he has been subjected in this debate.

The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, realising the difficulties of the situation, admitted that under our system there must be defects, and he only found fault with the Government's military policy in so far as the Government had reduced the regular Army by so many thousands of men. That is the very reason why, when we come to a division, hon. Gentlemen are going into the Division Lobby against the Government, because they say, although a certain number of men have been reduced, to the number, we have been told, of 22,000; that that is not sufficient. They intend to divide because a larger number has not been reduced. This variety of attack is really an advantage to my right hon. Friend. I have not to the same degree the experience of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, but I have listened to and taken part in discussions on Army organisation for a considerable number of years in this House. I have always heard the Secretary of State for War the subject of the same kind of attack from various quarters, and those attacks have been so antagonistic in character that he has been able to resist them from their total lack of concentration. He is charged with reducing the Army too much and not reducing it by enough. I think on the whole he has struck a happy medium.

There is one point which becomes clearer as a result of these discussions during these years, and that is that no scheme possibly can be perfect. Every scheme must be full of imperfections. That is due mainly to two reasons, which have already been given in the debate by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. They are due in the first place to the inherent difficulties attached to our position of being an island home, and at the same time a vast Empire and having to defend all corners of that Empire. In the second place, it is due to the effect of constantly changing views on scientific strategy which are always creating new situations for ourselves in this country. I have been long enough in this House to see a variety of opinions predominate on this subject. At one time the "blue water" opinion was the predominant factor. That opinion was that the fleet provided it was sufficiently strong—an opinion still held by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean—would be adequate to defend these shores, and therefore that the military in this country was a matter of quite secondary importance. That is the attractive presentment of the case by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, but I venture to say that even with his power of convincing the House, which he undoubtedly has on other subjects, he was rather obsolete in his view, and not able to convince the House that his views would be best for the necessities and defence of the country. The opinion of the "blue water" school was rapidly succeeded by an extended opinion that there might be a small raid on our shores.

In those days it was considered that no raid, with the fleet strong and predominant, could be made on these shores to a greater size than possibly 10,000 men. Very few years have passed now, and we come to a widely extended opinion. We have to-day opinion to which we here are bound to a great extent to bow, because it is the considered opinion of those who have studied scientifically this question, of both naval and military experts, and those who are responsible for the Government of this country, and to this House, and the heads of the great departments. That opinion is that we must have in this country a voluntary regular Army sufficient to provide a full police force for the whole of the Empire, and that at the same time we must have an Army, partly regular and partly irregular, which will be established to prevent any danger of a raid on a much larger scale than was formerly considered to be possible. It is now considered there might conceivably be a raid of from 70,000 to 100,000 men, or an invasion of this country. Therefore the establishment in this country is to provide against that possible contingency, and to prevent that possible contingency ever occurring. In addition to that—and this is rather a new departure on anything we have had to consider before due to the development of international relations—we have the further theory now propounded in the event of a European war. We might have to land a force of regular troops to work in alliance with a Continental Power in some country in Europe. That is a new view, and somewhat opposed to the views that have formerly been held by those who have taken up the question of naval and military strategy. We have got to establish our Army and Navy not only in compliance with the conditions of this country, but also in full touch with whatever the international relations may be between ourselves and foreign Powers.

If in detail this scheme is imperfect—and I am sure the Secretary of State for War is the first to admit that in many respects it is imperfect—in its main foundations it is sound, because the foundations are established in such a way that they are susceptible to rapid improvement in time of emergency. That is the best, I believe, you can get out of a voluntary system or can hope to get under a system or want to provide where we have a predominant Navy to tide over the early months. It has been shown a considerable economy has been effected in the case of the Army to something over £2,000,000, which we are spending less to-day than we were when the Government first came into office. I myself lament the reduction of some of the troops during the past three years, because of the quality of the troops that had to be reduced, although I have always been an advocate of the reduction of regular troops in this country, because I have always looked at it from the old policy that you can make a sufficient establishment for your Imperial police on a system other than that of the Cardwell system.

As to this proposed reduction of 10,000 men, I would ask some of my hon. Friends to pause well before they go into the Lobby in support of the proposal. A reduction of 10,000 men upon the present foundations would, I venture to say, have the effect of entirely disorganising the whole scheme of the Secretary of State for War, interfere with the rapid scheme of drafts to India, and thereby injure the whole military establishment in India, and would also seriously dislocate and disorganise the whole military system at home as well. The hon. Gentleman who proposed this motion did so merely as a pious opinion, without any considered scheme as to how it was to be carried out, and without any thought, or without any expression, in his speech as to what the condition of the Army would be if such a reduction took place. I would venture to say that I cannot conceive any greater disaster taking place in this country than the precipitate withdrawal of 10,000 troops in the ensuing year. I would earnestly beg of hon. Members who sit on this side, in the interests of the party which we wish to support, to pause well before they vote upon such a proposal.

There has been some very severe criticism in the course of this debate on the methods by which the Territorial Army has been recently recruited. I do not think any of us in this House admire some of those methods, especially the method which was dealt with in debate last night employed by the Alliance Insurance Company. I wish a very clear distinction to be made in the point of view I take between the method employed by the Insurance Company and the method which certain employers in the country—a group of patriotic employers—intend to employ in the future with a view to encouraging recruiting. I think the method of veiled compulsion which is included in the scheme of the Assurance Company is one which produces all the most malicious forms of compulsion, and if carried out by any extended number of employers would to my mind be far worse than any compulsory system.

I do not hesitate to say I would rather see a universal system throughout the country than to see that system extended in isolated character. That is quite different from a number of employers who said they would do all they could to facilitate those in the Territorial Army. It is one thing to introduce a disability into a certain industry, it is quite another to offer certain facilities to men in an industry to carry out their training in a patriotic service. I think that method is one we may all most heartily commend. The Financial Secretary, in an interesting speech last week, dealt with the improvements made in our voluntary Army, and the position of the soldier when he leaves the Army. I think it is important for all to hear that the social condition of the soldier during the period of service has improved a great deal from many standpoints during the past few years.

It is with regard to the position of the man when he leaves the Army that I wish to speak. If we are to have a voluntary Army of the very best stamp of men we must be able to give an assurance that on the expiration of their service the men should not find themselves thrown unprovided for on the labour market. I was glad to hear from the Financial Secretary to the War Office how large a proportion of men last year, through Government and other agencies, were found work on the expiration of their term of service. But much more remains to be done in that direction. It can be done in two ways. It is being done on the one side by the absorption of men into certain industries and certain Government departments— into particular branches of service which require no particular technical skill, but only good service, good conduct, and common sense. But the whole of the men cannot be absorbed in that way. The average number leaving the Army every year is between 25,000 and 30,000. Something more should be done in the direction of helping the men during their term in the Army to become civilian mechanics. Little has been done in that direction; at any rate, little money has been spent for that purpose. I would ask hon. Members on the Labour benches who take exception to these facilities being given to look into the question a little further; I believe they would then recognise that, so far from the soldier being given a preference, it would only be placing him on even ground with his fellow-subjects on leaving the Army. In a recent debate the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that if unemployment is to be mitigated—because it will be always with us, whether trade is good or'bad—we must have some more scientific arrangement of industry, and employers must be brought to look upon the casual portion of their workmen not merely as men to be taken on in the full time, and thrown out in the lean time to fall upon the rates. That proposition met with general approval. I suggest that the State is in an analogous position to the employer when it employs men for seven years for the defence of the country. We have a short service system, and it means foreign service. Very few men in the Army while they are in this country would be able to take advantage of facilities to learn certain trades, as during the first 18 months they have not time to do anything more than learn their military duties. But when they go abroad for the remaining five years, the great bulk of them are in India, which is a peculiarly suitable place for giving such facilities as I have suggested. During certain months, owing to the climatic conditions, little military work can be done, and it would be good for the physique and the morale of the men if opportunities were given for them to become acquainted with and proficient in certain trades, which they could take up on leaving the service. At present the time-expired soldier starts with a disability, as he finds himself in the open market at the age, not of 18 or 20, but of 26 or 27, when it is far more difficult to compete with those who have not served in the Army. I would suggest this in the interests of securing the highest possible standard of men for the Army, and also as one of the many channels by which we can approach the great problem of unemployment with a view to its mitigation.

The right hon. Gentleman can congratulate himself on one result of this debate, namely, that while at the beginning his Estimates did not meet with the marked approval of his followers, as the debate has proceeded those who in past years have been most keen on moving reductions have appeared to find salvation. Some have found their way to the Treasury Bench, where they now offer apologies against further reductions, while others, like the hon. Member for the Chippenham Division, who formerly have been strong advo- cates of reduction, now heartily support the right hon. Gentleman. Personally, though there are certain questions I should like to ask, I regard the Estimates as fairly satisfactory. I have always deprecated the argument, used by the hon. Member for Preston, that it is ridiculous that this country, with its Dependencies and Colonies, should spend £50,000,000 a year and get such a small return for it, whereas Germany, spending the same amount, has the largest and finest Army in the world. Anybody who looks into the matter can see the deceptiveness of such a comparison between the two countries. The German Army exists for one thing only, namely, to prevent invasion of its own country or to step across the frontier into somebody else's country. Our Army, on the other hand, exists for absolutely different purposes, by reason of which it is bound to be much more costly. I believe it is one of the large bills we have to pay on account of Empire, and also, if I may say so, on account of Free Trade. When certain backward portions of the globe have been gradually opened up for trade and commerce, and it has looked as though they might in the future provide markets for our goods, it has always been the policy of this country to set foot there, and, as far as possible, keep those markets open. That is largely the reason why we hold India, Hong Kong, the Straits Settlements, and so on, and it largely accounts for our Colonial development throughout the world. It would be perfectly impossible to hold these markets and prevent their being seized by foreign Powers, who would immediately raise a hostile tariff against us, if we had not a large force of soldiers at home whom we could send abroad to reinforce garrisons in case of need. It is a problem which every island Power has to face the moment it ceases to be merely an island Power and becomes a Continental Power. I do not know whether Japan will have the same experience now she has got a foothold in Asia. Something like 18,000 recruits are required every year in this country to supply the drafts for our different possessions. Some hon. Members think it a disgraceful thing that India should have to pay an extra £300,000 a year towards the cost of training and maintaining her Army. Personally, I do not think it is at all an unfair thing to ask. The British taxpayer must be considered a little. For three years we have to train, feed, and teach these men: then, as soon as they are really efficient soldiers, they go to India for five or six years, and practically the only benefit this country gets out of them is the four years or so in the reserve after their return. I think, therefore, that the British taxpayer pays a large share of the cost of raising this Army, which not only keeps India open as a free market for our goods, but also maintains peace, quiet, and contentment in that country, which, if left to itself, would very likely fall into a state of anarchy.

The right hon. Gentleman has been rather severely treated in some respects in regard to the Territorial Army. Anybody who has studied military or naval strategy must see that if we are to be strong in war it is essential that both our Fleet and our Army should be mobile—the former so that it could go to any part of the globe searching for the enemy's fleet, and the latter so that it could be sent as a thoroughly efficient and trained force to any part of the world where it might be required. Under these circumstances it is necessary that we should have a force at home to render invasion impossible. The larger and more efficient that force is the more difficult invasion would be and the greater the force the enemy would have to get across the sea in the absence of our regular Army. If I made any criticism of the Territorial Army it would be rather as to its size. I think the number of 300,000 is excessive for what it is required to do. If the men were fewer in number, had longer training, and were more efficient, I think the force would be a greater source of strength to us. I have no doubt that there is always lurking behind the right hon. Gentleman's mind and the mind of his advisers at the War Office that if you have a large number—say 300,000—in the Territorial Army, and if we are engaged in some big war, and if you were to call on the greater number of these men and keep them in camp for three or four months, they would be so heartily sick of staying in camp that the greater portion of them would volunteer for service abroad. During the South African War the volunteers made a ready response, and I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman has in his mind that if he can only get a large Territorial force they will only be too delighted to take part in war in the event of an outbreak. If that is so practically one of the main uses of the Territorial Army will be to repair the wastage of the regulars. In that case, my criticism is that it should be smaller and more efficient than at the present time. When the Bill was introduced to set up the Territorial Army we heard a great deal of the value of training. It was said that it would last for three weeks, and that the men were to do twenty or thirty preliminary drills. These conditions have been whittled down one after another, and now the greater portion will only do a comparatively small number of preliminary drills. I believe that, instead of lasting three weeks, the training will only last a week.

I wish to refer to another point in connection with the Estimates. I think it is of a serious character. The hon. Member for Preston pointed out a certain discrepancy amounting to about £500,000. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman will be able to explain it. The hon. Member contended that the Estimates were not real Estimates. I should like from another point of view an assurance that these Estimates are real in respect that the right hon. Gentleman is keeping the Home Army up to the mark, and not putting aside certain necessary work which may cause a heavy increase of expenditure in future years. In the first place, anybody who heard the right hon. Gentleman the member for Croydon and the hon. Member for Black-pool must have been impressed with what they said in regard to the condition of some of the barracks in this country. I do not profess to be an expert in these matters, but I am perfectly certain that there are any quantity of our barracks throughout the country where married men and their families are living in houses and sets of rooms which would not be sanctioned by any sanitary officer in the country. No landlord would ask a farm labourer to live in such houses. I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman has not in the Estimates been setting aside enough for this purpose. The Financial Secretary told us that there is a certain amount in the Estimates this year for married quarters. This is a matter that the Committee should be reassured upon, because a saving might be effected now on what is not showy work, though two or three years afterwards there might be a large expenditure. It is most important that that should not be overlooked.

There is another point which I believe has helped not only the present Estimates, but the Estimates during the past two or three years, and which will not help them in coming years. I fancy that when the right hon. Gentleman assumed the reins of office he found an enormous number of reserve men. I am one of those who believe that the men in the reserve are the very best materials we can have in the Army. I believe that with the exception of a few long-service men serving with the colours they are the very best troops we have, and at the same time the cheapest. We get more from the reserve men than from anybody else. Though the reserve men are not very often spoken about, I am certain that it was to them that this country was chiefly indebted for having saved the situation in South Africa, It is therefore most important that the reserve men should be kept up at the highest state of efficiency. I think the right hon. Gentleman has been fortunate in having a large number of reservists to draw upon. For that reason he was always to come to the House and state that the Army was in a satisfactory condition, and that there were more reserves than before. That is a state of things which is not going to continue, because the surplus reservists are getting smaller and smaller every year. By reducing the regular battalions there is also no doubt that there will be far fewer men going into the reserves than in the past. I do not know how many years it will take, but probably in three or four years the number of reservists will fall lower than the number when the right hon. Gentleman came into office.

The number when we took office was 94,000, and the number in future will be 116,000, not including the special reserve.

If that is the case, I think it is a most satisfactory statement. I was certainly under the impression that there was a larger surplus reserve when the right hon. Gentleman assumed office. In fact, I thought he had made speeches in which he said he was going to try to get rid of some of them. In his explanatory statement this year I understood him to say that he had a large number of reservists he did not want.

There were 94,000 when we took office, and they have gone up to 134,000. That is no credit to me. Now the normal number will be 116,000. We are training 2,000 men as medical bearers for mobilisation.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for explaining this matter. If the right hon. Gentleman considers that a sufficient force, of course I have no fault to find with him; but I would only point out that the 134.000 men figured on the Estimates, and helped to increase the number of the Army. They were very efficient men, and did not cost much. The only other matter to which I wish to refer is that of stores required for mobilisation. I believe that the policy of the War Office is that the first division at any rate should have sufficient stores to mobilise straight away.

The stores and weapons are there for the whole of the divisions, and they could be mobilised tomorrow.

A rumour has reached me that certain carts and other stores required for the divisions on mobilisation are being used for ordinary routine work by different battalions, and that it is doubtful whether these are being replaced by new articles, or whether, being so used, they will be available when wanted for mobilisation.

I am in a position to give, the Noble Lord the assurance on the authority of the Quartermaster-General that the stores and weapons for the whole of the divisions are there. Some of the stores are perishable, but as we take them out we put in others.

That is satisfactory also. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for kindly answering the question I put to him, because I think it is important that these matters should not fall on future Estimates. I should like to refer to a matter of importance, which would affect the greater number of wars this country is ever likely to be engaged in. There should always be in this country a certain number of infantry battalions, one or two cavalry regiments, and two or three batteries of artillery, which could leave these shores at a moment's notice in order to reinforce the stations abroad. I believe that is a point which has been overlooked in the past. At the beginning of the South African campaign this was a most serious matter, because there was not a single battalion or battery which could be sent from this country, and assistance had to be sent from India. I have listened to ten or twelve different statements by War Ministers with respect to the reform of the British Army, and it has always struck me they have laid far too much stress on mere organisation. Although there must be some organisation, I hold that organisation or division into Army Corps does not matter for us to the same extent as in Continental armies, like those of Germany, France, and other Powers. It stands to reason that the moment war breaks out troops will be sent to strengthen our position. Troops will be sent off in ten minutes to get trains, and the consequence is that there should be a certain number of regiments or battalions who form part of the Army Corps ready to reinforce the defenders and to help against the invasion in some Colony or Dependency. I hope the House will be reassured by some satisfactory reply from the right hon. Gentleman on that point. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the fact that he has got a military force in a satisfactory condition, and I hope that he will not yield to any clamour on his own side of the House that may be made in favour of reduction.

I have listened to the whole of this debate, and whilst I should have expected the War Minister to be criticised from many points of view, the real feature of the debate has been a consensus of opinion with reference to his action in connection with the policy of the Alliance Assurance Company. Conscription through a capitalist syndicate is not only ineffective, but is opposed by those who are deadly opposed to conscription or universal service. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman realises the gravity of his statement in this House. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle and the Member for Norwich have expressed views on this particular question which I share entirely. I wish the right hon. Gentleman clearly to understand that the objection is not confined to my hon. Friends below the Gangway opposite. If he were to take the views of organised labour as a whole, either organised in the Trades Unions or organised in the co-operative societies—the majority of whom are very friendly disposed to the right hon. Gentleman—the overwhelming majority regard what the right hon. Gentleman has said as a breach of the distinct promise to us with regard to the Territorial Forces. The right hon. Gentleman told us distinctly that everything about it should be of a voluntary character. He held strong views, as I do, and I saw the force of the right hon. Gentleman's contention that he wanted to make the volunteer branch of the Army a real effective force. So far as the Bill was concerned, the right hon. Gentleman kept his word, as I am sure he would always do. As far as I know, he has done so in his own policy, and the attitude which he has displayed towards the employés in the War Office shows that, but after all this he comes down to the House and he uses words of hearty approval of the action of the Alliance Assurance Company. What was that action? It was neither more nor less than to make it a condition that employés of the company should join the Territorial Force.

The right hon. Gentleman holds a strong position on this question, not only in this House but in the country, and when he gives his approval to the particular policy of a corporation, it does not merely end there. When this approval has been made it becomes a direct encouragement to other employers to do the same thing. I do not think that Lord Rothschild and his company are to have a preference in this sort of thing, and therefore this encouragement given by the right hon. Gentleman must extend. The right hon. Gentleman is a man of resources. Last night they failed him altogether. He told us that it was quite true that he did approve of the action of the Alliance Assurance Company. He said men were not coming in, and under these circumstances he approved of what would not have had his approval if men had come in more freely.

What is the position? It means that a man who is otherwise honest is embarrassed, and, therefore, he says: I will steal and become honest when things mend. That is exactly what the right hon. Gentleman has done. This is really too much, and we have a right to expect from him a very definite assurance that it is no part of his policy under any circumstances to encourage employers to make it a part of their policy that their employés should join the Territorial Force. That is an assurance which we ought to have. If the Secretary of State for War will not give it, the Prime Minister ought to give it. This is no small matter. I would not have intervened in this debate but for the fact that this is a real thing—serious in itself, serious to the party to which I have the honour to belong, and altogether against public policy. I shall not refer, except in a word, to the bewildering speeches which the Secretary of State made in the recess. He talked a good deal about a nation in arms. We did not win the last General Election on "a nation in arms." The great and good man who has passed away, and whose influence had a great deal to do with that election, had a cry, and that was that England should be at the head of a League of Peace. So far, the right hon. Gentleman has not done very much to reach that ideal. I ask him to give his Liberalism a real chance and his Imperialism a rest. I listened to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, as I always do, with delight. I always think that he is the last of the great Parliamentarians who loves debate in the House of Commons in a sense which some of us do not. I gather that he adheres to his opinions that invasion is impossible. His followers talk of an invasion in which they do not believe. In my opinion they always very unwisely refer to one great and friendly Power.

About strategy I know no more than the average Member. But was the improved foreign policy begun by Lord Lansdowne in the understanding with France, and continued by Sir E. Grey in the Anglo-Russian Treaty, never to count for anything? We ought to reap the harvest of this peace policy in reduction of armaments. I believe England is absolutely secure. When the war broke out with the two little Dutch Republics in South Africa—which required a quarter of a million of men on our side to deal with—England was denuded of troops. She is not likely to be so denuded again, but the Under-Secretary for the Colonies has said that, even during the Boer War, England was perfectly secure.

Now in my clumsy and blundering way I draw this moral, that if England was secure at the time of the Boer War, when she had so many nations growling on her flank—and no wonder at it—if she was safe then, surely she is safe now, even if you reduce the Army by 10,000 men.

May I make an appeal to the Committee to come to a decision upon this Amendment now. There will be an opportunity for further discussion of all these matters tomorrow, and I think it would be for the general convenience if a decision was taken now.

There are two or three questions I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman. I do not propose to answer the speeches made from the other side, but I would like to say, first of all, that I am sorry to notice that in the whole of the right hon. Gentleman's speech no allusion has been made to the growth of rifle clubs. Constant appeals reach us for support for these rifle clubs, showing the difficulty many of them are in in carrying out their patriotic efforts to do that which is a necessary part of the defences of this country. If this Territorial Army is to be of any advantage at all it will be as an army of defence, and there is nothing that this House ought to encourage more thoroughly than rifle practice among our citizens, and good shooting. I got an appeal the other day from some of my Constituents asking for funds to help in the providing and repairing of rifles. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to do something to show that the repair of these rifles should be provided for by the War Office. These men already make great sacrifices in order to conduct those rifle clubs, and they do all they can to make them efficient, and this extra tax of providing for the repair of their rifles ought not to be put upon them. The next question I desire to ask is about the supply of horses. I should like to know what are the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman in dealing with future increases in the supply of horses? He told us of some addition of 800 new horses every year. I should like to suggest to him that these are only tinkering measures, and I would like to ask him how he proposes that a system such as he suggests can be made efficient? I would also like to ask him how does he propose that cavalry regiments, which have now all their time taken up, are going to train an extra 200 horses in the winter months, and how does the right hon. Gentleman propose, when these horses are trained and sent out to farmers, when not required, to keep them in proper condition to be ready again for service? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give me some explanation of these things. I will not go further into details, but if I had more time I could give him some practical facts why I think he might have been better advised in dealing with these matters.

Question put: "That a reduced number, not exceeding 173,000 men, be granted to His Majesty for the said service."

The House divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 247.

Division No. 29.]

AYES.

[7.38 p.m.

Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

Markham, Arthur Basil

Barnes, G. N.

Hall, Frederick

Meagher, Michael

Black, Arthur W.

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

Boland, John

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Nolan, Joseph

Bowerman, C. W.

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

Bright, J. A.

Hazleton, Richard

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Higham, John Sharp

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire)

Hodge, John

O'Grady, J.

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hogan, Michael

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Byles, William Pollard

Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Cameron, Robert

Hudson, Walter

Pirie, Duncan V.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H,

Clough, William

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Clynes, J. R.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Jones, Leif (Appleby)

Reddy, M.

Collins. Stephen (Lambeth)

Jowett, F. W.

Richards. T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.)

Kavanagh, Walter M.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Curran, Peter Francis

Kilbride, Denis

Roche, Augustine (Cork)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Rowlands, J.

Delany. William

Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.)

Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lehmann, R. C.

Shackleton, David James

Dillon, John

Levy, Sir Maurice

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Donelan, Captain A.

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Spicer, Sir Albert

Duffy, William J.

Lundon, W.

Steadman, W. C.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lupton, Arnold

Summerbell, T.

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Macdonald, J. E. (Leicester)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Fenwick, Charles

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Wardle, George J.

Flynn, James Christopher

Macpherson, J. T.

Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

Fullerton, Hugh

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.E.)

Gill A. H.

MacVeigh. Charles (Donegal, E.)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Gooch. George Peabody (Bath)

M'Callum, John M.

Grayson, Albert Victor

Maddison, Frederick

TELLEES FOR THE AYES.—Dr.

Gulland, John W.

Mansfield, H. Rendall (Lincoln)

Rutherford and Mr. A. G. C. Harvey

Gurdon, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Brampton

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Clark, George Smith

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Acland-Hood. Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F.

Cleland, J. W.

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Agnew, George William

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

Hazel, Dr. A. E. W.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Heaton, John Henniker

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Courthope, G. Loyd

Hemmerde, Edward George

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cowan, W. H.

Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Crosfield, A. H.

Hills, J. W.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Crossley, William J.

Hobart, Sir Robert

Atherley-Jones, L.

Dalziel, Sir James Henry

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Balcarres, Lord

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Holden, E. Hopkinson

Balfour, Robert (Lanark')

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Holland, Sir William Henry

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Barnard, E. B.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hunt, Rowland

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

Hyde, Clarendon G.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Dobson, Thomas W.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Beale, W. P.

Du Cros, Arthur

Jardine, Sir J.

Beauchamp, E.

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Jenkins, J.

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea.,

Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R.

Erskine, David C.

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Everett, E. Lacey

Kearley, Sir Hudson E.

Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford)

Faber, George Denison (York)

Kekewich, Sir George

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Kerry, Earl of

Birrell, Et. Hon. Augustine

Fell, Arthur

Kimber, Sir Henry

Boulton, A. C. F.

Ferens, T. R.

Kincaid-Smith, Captain M.

Bramsdon, T. A.

Findlay, Alexander

Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester)

Branch, James

Fletcher, J. S.

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Freeman-Thomas, Freeman

Lamont, Norman

Brigg, John

Fuller, John Michael F.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Brooke, Stopford

Furness, Sir Christopher

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Buchanan, Rt. Hon. Thomas R.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

Burns. Rt. Hon. John

Glover, Thomas

Lever, A. Levy (Essex. Harwich)

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Greenwood, Hamar (York)

Lewis, John Herbert

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles

Gretton, John

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Carlile. E. Hildred

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Lynch, H. B.

Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hamilton, Marquess of

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey-

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

M'Arthur, Charles

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

M'Crae, Sir George

Cheetham, John Frederick

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester)

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.)

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

M'Micking, Major G.

Roberts. Charles H. (Lincoln)

Ure, Alexander

Magnus, Sir Philip

Robertson. Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Valentia, Viscount

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Robson. Sir William Snowdon

Verney, F. W.

Marnham. F. J.

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Wadsworth, J.

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Masterman, C. F. C,

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Walsh, Stephen

Menzies, Walter

Rose, Charles Day

Walton, Joseph

Micklem, Nathaniel

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

Middlebrook, William

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Waring, Walter

Molteno, Percy Alport

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Montagu. Hon. E. S.

Seaverns, J. H,

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Montgomery, H. G.

Seddon, J.

Waterlow, D. S.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Seely, Colonel

Weir, James Galloway

Morrison-Bell. Captain

Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford)

Whitbread, S. Howard

Morse, L. L.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Sherwell, Arthur James

White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)

Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard,)

Shipman, Dr. John D.

Whitehead, Rowland

Myer, Horatio

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Napier, T. B.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Wiles, Thomas

Newdegate, F. N.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth)

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

Williams. Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Nicholls, George

Soares. Ernest J.

Williamson, A.

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

Wills, Arthur Walters

Norman, Sir Henry

Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.B.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Stone. Sir Benjamin

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Wood. T. M'Kinnon

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Wyndham. Rt. Hon. George

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Younger. George

Radford, G. H.

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Yoxall, James Henry

Rainy, A. Rolland

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Tomkinson, James

TELLEBS FOR THE NOES.—Mr, Joseph Pease and the Master of Elibank.

Rees, J. D.

Toulmin, George

Renwick, George

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Ridsdale, E. A.

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Original question again proposed.

There have been a great many remarks made about the conduct of the affairs of the Army by the Minister for War, and it would be impertinent for me to express any opinion about his management of them, but if he would allow me humbly to make an observation, I would like to say that I have nothing but admiration for his extraordinary energy and for the devotion and great self-sacrifice which everybody knows he has shown in devoting his great talents to the country. In any remarks that I shall make I hope he will understand that. An hon. Gentleman said that I should not be in the House again after the General Election, and no doubt he feels able to make prophecies because they have had great experience on the opposite side in losing seats, and, therefore, they feel qualified for saying who is going to lose a seat. What is the use, I would ask, of our having a great Army to secure foreign markets if when hon. Members opposite get into power they give up such markets as Madagascar? The Liberal party did not give up Madagascar, but the other party did, although they had all the Army and Navy they wanted. I do not see exactly of what use the Army is under those circumstances. I should like to say that I treat this Army question very seriously, and I do not regard the matter as a joke as hon. Members do. I think our soldiers should be in a good position to meet the enemy whenever they meet them, and I am sorry to find that the British soldiers are to be made the receptacle for all sorts of inoculations with serums and nostrums manufactured of dangerous materials.

The right hon. Gentleman told us that they were inoculating soldiers with typhoid serum. I know that he is in favour of inoculating them with matter for the smallpox, but is he in favour of inoculating them with matter for the great pox? That is one of the latest fashions, as we know that a distinguished surgeon in the Royal Navy looks forward to the time when all the men in the Navy will be inoculated with syphilitic matter from an anthropoid ape. I should like to ask my right hon Friend whether that is part of his treatment? The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, and I take it that he will not approve of it—that voluntarily or involuntarily he will not approve of it. I am glad to know that; it is something at any rate. I am glad that he draws the line there, because the men of science are trying to lead the most able men by the nose, and they will try to lead him to that. I should like to say a word about this inoculation for typhoid. A doctor who had observed a great many cases of soldiers said that those who had been inoculated for typhoid took 29 days to recover, and the percentage of deaths was 6½. The uninoculated men, however, only took 21 days to recover, and the percentage of deaths was under 2; therefore, the percentage of deaths of the uninoculated was only one-third of those who had been inoculated.

A doctor of Guys' Hospital says that this inoculation does not modify the disease in any shape or form, and he does not think that its incidence will be diminshed by it. Mr. W. H. Power, medical officer of the Local Government Board, referring to this typhoid inoculation stuff, says its value is disputed by the military authorities in South Africa, and they want a more satisfactory serum. I do not think it is necessary to go on. There is no evidence at all that this stuff is any good, although we know, of course, that the people who sell it make money by it. If the right hon. Gentleman were not in this House it is likely he would be a judge, and I ask him to bring his great ability to bear on the evidence with regard to this serum and weigh it and not to subject the poor solider to the treatment of these quacks. With regard to Malta fever he spoke of a colonel who has discovered some cause for it. He had made experiments on goats and their milk, and he thought that they were the cause of the disease. But other people have investigated the matter and given other reasons. For instance, the sewage of the town went down into the harbour and caused a great nuisance. Quite recently they have reformed the sewage and taken the drainage out into the deep sea. They had done this before this colonel tried his remedy, and the Malta fever had in consequence gone down very considerably. The patients in the Malta hospital, it seemed, all came from one particular barracks. They are building a great barrack on a hill at Malta. The result of that is that there has been a great reduction of fever simply as the result of sanitation, although the natives go on drinking goat's milk. Malta fever is not peculiar to Malta, It belongs to all the Mediterranean ports where there are insanitary arrangements, and there are a great many. If this typhoid inoculation is to be voluntary, why should not vaccination also be voluntary? Why compel men to submit to this old-fashioned and exploded humbug of vaccination when this new fad of inoculation for typhoid is voluntary? It is quite in accordance with modern Acts of Parliament that it should be voluntary. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not have his policy dictated to him by others who have not an unbiassed view of the question, but will weigh the facts for himself.

The right hon. Gentleman opposite said a great deal urging the Government to build new barracks, but how conies it that they who were such great supporters of a large Army when they were in office did not build enough barracks? How comes it that they leave it for a Government which came in on the score of economy to build barracks for an inflated Army? If the right hon. Gentleman would only be advised by his friends and those who wish to keep him in office, he would reduce his Army to that number for which there is healthy and sound barrack room. What is the use of keeping up an Army beyond the means that he has of giving it healthy and proper accommodation? We do not want to drive men into the Army or bribe them to go into it and make them ill by giving them unhealthy quarters.

With regard to the question of compulsion, I can never understand, whether you want a territorial force of 50,000, 100,000 or 1,000,000, where the question of compulsion comes in. Here is a House full of middle-aged men, and we want to compel some young men to fight for us. Can anything be more disgracefully mean? I cannot imagine any hon. Gentleman urging a young man to risk his life while he sits comfortably at home. It is mean to a degree. It is shocking and horrible. If you want the young men to go and fight, pay them. Conscription of young men is a way to ruin the nation, because this great Army is not required for one campaign only. No nation has been ruined by one campaign. What ruins a nation? It is when the young men get killed. This is a country which goes in for monogamy. If this were a polygamous country the middle-aged men might marry the maidens. If there is to be conscription, let us have conscription of the old men—men over 50 years of age. The old men will not run away so fleetly as the young men will. They can fight behind an embankment as well as anyone else, and if they are killed it will save the old age pensions, and another rank of young men will grow up and take their place and the nation might go on fighting European campaigns for generation after generation, and in time we should come out victorious. France was ruined after her great wars because she had only old men at home. The country would be none the worse if most of the old men who were sent away were killed, but it will ruin us if the young men are sent away. That is another argument in favour of a voluntary Army. I am not in favour of conscription at all. I think everyone ought to be paid for what he does, particularly for such a business as fighting.

I think I have shown some reason why the House should vote against this proposal to Vote 183,000 men, because we have a quite sufficient force in the Territorials to support this country. It has been said that to reduce the force would be to upset it all. Not at all. We have 45,000 men abroad in the Colonies whose absence makes us weaker and not stronger. Every garrison we have abroad is a source of weakness. While our Navy, instead of defending our shores, and instead of attacking the foreign foe, have to go to defend Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt, South Africa, and every place where we have a few thousand troops. If we have all our troops and our fleet in England then no one will dare to attack us. These distant garrisons are our great danger. The right hon. Gentleman should reduce the Army by the whole of these 45,000 men, and our position would be very much stronger, and the position of the Empire would be very much stronger.

Question put.

Vote agreed to.

Pay of the Army

Motion made and question proposed: "That a sum not exceeding £8,527,000 be granted to His Majesty to defray the expenses of the pay, etc., of the Army for the year ending 31st March, 1910.

Vote agreed to.

Half-Pay, Etc., for Officers

Motion made and question proposed: "That a sum not exceeding £1,762,000 be granted to His Majesty for the expenses of rewards, half-pay, retired pay, widows' pensions, and other non-effective charges for officers for the year ending 31st March, 1910."

Vote agreed to.

Non-Effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers, Men, and Others

Motion made and question proposed: "That a sum not exceeding £1,868,000 be granted to His Majesty to defray the expenses of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals of out-pensions, rewards for distinguished services, widows' pensions and other non-effective charges for warrant officers, non-commissioned officers and men etc., for the year ending 31st March, 1910."

Vote agreed to.

Civil Superannuation, Compassionate Allowances, and Gratuities

Motion made and question proposed: "That a sum not exceeding £158,000 be granted to His Majesty to defray the expenses of civil superannuation, compensation, compassionate allowances and gratuities, and of payments under the Workmen's Compensation Acts."

Vote agreed to.

Progress reported, House resumed.

SUPPLY (3rd MARCH) REPORT

The DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Emmott) in the chair.

Relief of Unemployment

Motion made and question proposed: "That the House agree with the Committee that a supplementary sum not exceeding £100,000 be granted to His Majesty to defray to 31st March, 1909, the charge for institutions in aid of expenses under the Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905."

Question put, and agreed to.

Expenses of Colonial Office

Motion made and question proposed: "That the House agree with the Com- mittee that a supplementary sum not exceeding £610 be granted to His Majesty to defray salaries and expenses of the office of the Secretary of State for the Colonies."

On this Vote there are some questions which I wish to raise. The first of these is that of the Somaliland expedition.

Another question to which I would call attention is that the original provision made has proved absolutely insufficient. A point that arises and that will arise on many Votes this year is that under present circumstances, and in face of the existing position in this country we are not justified in increasing any of the Votes unless there is good cause for doing so. When we have to rush through a Bill as we had last night beacuse we were told it was absolutely necessary that it should pass this week the supplementary services ought to be divided into two portions so that one might be got through at once and the other come on at the end of the month When that is done it seems absolutely necessary that we should look into the question of increased expenditure in any department with the closest scrutiny. In the case of the Colonial Office which has not as much to do at the present time as it had some two or three years ago one would have expected a reduction. At that time the Colonial Office had the two great provinces of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State under its control. Now that that work has disappeared I should expect the Vote for the Colonial Office to show a large decrease this year. It was, therefore, a great surprise to find that a larger amount is being asked for, when a smaller amount of work was done. The Secretary for the Colonies must, I think, admit that I have ground for my contention that the work of the Colonial Office has diminished greatly. Therefore, to come to the House for a Supplementary Vote for increased expenditure by the Colonial Office is not warranted unless it is justified in the fullest degree by explanations from the Under-Secretary for the Colonies.

It being a quarter past eight o'clock the debate stood adjourned.

Derwent Valley Water Board Bill

Bill read a second time.

moved: "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to insert a clause requiring the Board to supply, on demand, water by meter to any person requiring the same for domestic, farming, or trade purposes at a charge not exceeding one shilling per thousand gallons, in addition to a charge not exceeding five per centum on the additional initial outlay involved in providing such supply."

He said: I should like to say that I am not actuated by any hostility to this particular Bill. I am moving this Instruction in order to ask the House to discuss the principle, and I shall try to persuade the House to lay down the principle that in all water legislation the Committees which sit upon the Water Bills shall give due consideration, and see that due protection is given to the agricultural interest, both in the districts in which the water is supplied and the districts from which it is drawn. In moving this Instruction I do not propose to deal at all with the details of the Derwent Valley Water Bill, or any other Water Bill, and I shall confine myself to the principle I have laid down. I am aware—and the Central Chamber of Agriculture, on whose behalf I am speaking, are aware—that the Instruction which appears on the paper is much too wide in its terms, and requires some limiting words. I hope that those limiting words will be proposed by the President of the Local Government Board on behalf of the Government. I think if he can see his way to do that it will provide a most satisfactory conclusion to the course I am taking, which we intend to push until we have got satisfaction to the agricultural community on this question.

Before I come to the more general question of the law as it affects water rights, I wish to explain that I do not desire that the Instruction which I am moving should apply to urban districts. I do not want to compel a water company to provide at a low charge water by meter to a block of offices and so on, for example, which can afford to pay a substantial sum and which probably do not use 10,000 gallons of water a year. I am not dealing with that kind of thing at all. What I am dealing with at the present time is the rural districts. I have had copies of statements sent me in favour of certain of these Water Bills, and opposing my Instruction, and most of them contain arguments against a meter supply. They all suggest, and one of them denfiitely states, that the effect of my proposal would be to compel water companies to supply by meter in all cases, to do away with the supply by rate, and introduce in its place a supply by meter. I know that in a great many cases for trade purposes it is very undesirable that the supply should be by meter, because it tends towards insanitary conditions.

I do not want to compel a company to supply by meter, and my Instruction would not have that effect. My proposal is intended to deal with cases where there is no obligation on the company to supply at all. I do not wish to change the general system of the past. I do not wish to start a system by which the poor in the cottages will have to take their water by meter. In the urban districts the present system has this effect, that the well-to-do pay a higher rate for their water than the poor, and that is a very desirable thing. If a meter supply be substituted for the rate supply it would have the effect that the poor might have to pay more and the rich less. I am only mentioning this because I wish to make it quite clear that I do not intend to make any such change as this by my Instruction. I only suggest that the Board should be required to supply on demand water by meter, and this is the only way of dealing with cases where at present there is no obligation to supply at all.

The grievances of the agricultural community are of two kinds. The first is the case where a company has an obligation to supply in a small area and a right to supply in a larger area, the smaller area being the urban district and the greater area the rural district within a few miles of the town. There is a grievance in this case, because where a farmer requires water for his stock and other purposes he very often has to pay at a rate immensely greater than that at which his neighbours in the town pay for their water supply.

I know a particular case, where the water is supplied in a town at 9d. per thousand gallons, that it is charged for just outside the town—outside of what I might call the obligation circle, the obligation line, at 2s. 6d. per thousand, and a farmer, if he gets water at all has to pay that for it in addition to paying the whole capital outlay along the pipe. That is obviously inequitable and unjust. That is the first source of grievance. The second is a much greater grievance, very much more general. It is in innumerable cases where the natural and free water supply, which the agricultural community have at present, and have a perfect right to, is taken away from them by the operation of water companies, corporations or water beards, without any obligation whatever being imposed by Parliament upon the companies, corporations or boards, to offer to pay compensation for loss of the supply or to give any compensation supply as an alternative. And that really is my motive for taking the action which I am taking now against a number of Water Bills, in fact, all the Water Bills which are before Parliament this year.

I may point out that this question, the water supply for rural districts, does not end with the agriculturists. Anyone who takes the trouble, as I have done, to look into the figures, and make inquiries, in certain districts where the natural water supply has been drawn off—and in many of these cases I should say the water comes down the valleys in question in pipes, instead of by its natural channels of supply, and is stopped at the head of the valley and taken from the caption area, and brought down through these districts in pipes and the farmer loses his supply—will know the effect. Instead of having a plentiful supply of fresh water for his stock in many cases the farmer is compelled to water them at stagnant ponds, and if anyone does not know what the inevitable result of that practice is, I would ask him to read the last report of the Royal Commission on Tuberculosis:— in vague or at all events unknown channels—it may really percolate and collect itself in spots—if it does that, there is no such doctrine of "reasonable use" in this country. One might say that in this case it is:—

The law has already been changed by the courts of the United States of America, and I hope it will shortly be changed in this country. As I have said, in these cases, unless it is expressly provided in Parliament in the Act which governs the operations of the particular country, corporation, or board, there is no obligation, no general obligation, imposed to pay either compensation for loss of water, or else to give an alternative supply. I am anxious that this House should recognise the general principles of the justice of the claim I have made on behalf of the agricultural district and extend the doctrine of "reasonable use."

I am not asking the House to do anything unprecedented, because already in a great many cases here in this House upstairs in Committees, and in the House of Lords, and also in the Law Courts, in individual cases this has been recognised; and doubts have been thrown as to whether the company or distributing owner can claim to be in the same position as the private owner in respect of the water under his land. In that respect I should like very briefly to quote to the House part of the judgment of Lord Wensleydale in the historic case of Chasemore v. Richards:— by the Act, the urban district councils under the Act shall then either supply compensation, water free, or shall pay a money compensation. Similar action was taken under the Selby Urban District Council's Water Act, 1904. The Bedford Corporation, in their Water Act of 1902, inserted a provision to the effect that in the event of the water supply from certain wells diminishing after the carrying out of the work the corporation was to supply further water to make up the deficit. Trinity College, Cambridge, I think, used the water, and those who received the water to make up the deficit were to pay 4 per cent, on the pipe outlay. In the Gosport Water Act of 1904 similar action was taken by this House. In one case, which is particularly analogous to that which we are discussing, the case of South Oxfordshire in 1905, the hon. Baronet who now represents the Board of Agriculture in this House, and who was then Chairman of the Central Chamber of commerce, the position which I now have the honour to occupy, took similar action to that which I have taken to-night, and he secured the inclusion of a clause in that Act providing for the protection of the rural districts subject to the necessary condition that no injustice should be done on the other side. I should be satisfied if the House would take action similar 1o that which was followed on that occasion in the case of all the Bills which are now before the House. In the case of the South Oxfordshire Water Act, 1905, there were certain exceptional things to be considered which made the prices rather higher

The right hon. Gentleman says "hear, hear," but I think if he looks into the list of prices he will find that they are owing simply to the exceptional conditions in that particular water area. The prices which are inserted in that clause could not reasonably be expected to apply to water companies in general. The agricultural community hoped, and naturally hoped, that the action taken then by Parliament would be a precedent for future action, and that similar clauses would be inserted by the Committee in future Bills. This has not been done. If it had been done it would not have been necessary for me to trouble the House to-night. What I wish to do to-night is to avoid the necessity in future of establishing a status before the Private Bill Committee upstairs, and of going to the expense of briefing counsel to oppose Bills, and also to obviate the necessity of moving a special instruction in the case of almost every Water Bill which comes before this House in future. I ask the co-operation of the Local Government Board. I ask the House to lay down a general principle in wide terms which will achieve the object we have in view. This principle was very nearly laid down by Parliament so recently as 1906 in an Act called the Sutton District Waterworks Act, which was brought in with the avowed object of preventing the London and South-Western Railway Company from drawing water from the supply which furnished the Sutton District Waterworks Company with their water.

Clauses were inserted as follows in that Act:—

I do not ask for a free supply, although many people have said it would be reasonable to do so. I merely ask for a supply at a reasonable rate. I cannot imagine this House could justify their refusal to consent to the principle when I ask them to confirm. I hope the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board will suggest such limiting words and such amendments to the instruction which I am moving, making it practically non-contentious while leaving it applicable to all the Water Bills before the House in the future. If he is not able to do so it may be necessary to raise discussion again. We have no wish to impose hard conditions on any water company, or to ask them to make any financial sacrifice, but I ask that the principles of equity and justice should be applied to the rural population, which, in individual cases, Parliament has already insisted on. I beg to move.

I beg to second. I think it is admitted that this grievance of drawing the water out of the country without any remedy or compensation is one that ought to be provided against. I do not entirely agree with the wording of the Instruction, which I trust the Government will endeavour to improve. I ask this in the agricultural interest. I hope the House will realise there is no intention of endeavouring to secure any preference for any class. The principle is that the water supply is a national matter, which ought to be dealt with on national grounds, and on section of the community should be deprived of the right it has to the share in the national water supply by incompetence or inadvertence. I heard it remarked, "Why is this necessary, as we compensate all the way down?" There are some cases in which loss of this kind cannot be compensated for, because it is not realised until many years afterwards. It is to provide against such a loss as that.

The promoters of the Derwent Valley Water Bill have to resist this Instruction, but I hope those who moved it will not assume that we are at all antagonistic to the agricultural interest. We have no objection to this principle being discussed and settled in this House, but I think the Mover is unfortunate in raising it on this Bill, which asks no further powers so far as an extra water supply is concerned. The Bill asks three things: (1) To extend the time allowed us in the Act of 1898 to complete certain works; (2) a purely domestic matter of finance; and (3) we ask powers to slightly deviate a certain aqueduct on account of certain local representations. Such a Bill, I submit, does not give the hon. Member the opportunity that he desires.

The Derwent Valley Water Act of 1899 is the Act under which we are working. That Act was discussed here, carefully adjusted in Committee, and we accepted the obligations imposed upon us. The House will discover that every reasonable obligation which the hon. Gentleman seeks to impose by his Instruction is already im- posed upon us. The first case of hardship to a farmer who is outside the obligatory sphere of supply does not arise. The next source of complaint that the free natural water is being taken away is carefully provided for in our Act of 1899. We are, for instance, under an obligation to send water down the river for the different agricultural and trade interests down the valley, and also to pay compensation in money to certain interests which were affected or interfered with, and as a matter of fact we have liquidated those obligations at a cost of something like £10,000.

Section 91 of our Act of 1899, which indicates the intention of the Act—and the intention is fully carried out—says:— it, with the result that the unredeemed part of our capital would be lost. The South Oxford Act, to which the hon. Member referred, is no parallel to our case. That Act dealt with supply in detail. Under one clause it was contemplated that the company might enter into arrangements with local authorities to supply in bulk, but the clause protecting the agricultural interests was put in because the whole Bill from beginning to end contemplated supply in detail, and the intention was that supply in detail should be provided for agricultural purposes—a perfectly legitimate proposition. But there is no supply in detail contemplated in our original Act at all. It provides for a supply in bulk. The municipalities of Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby, and Leicester are to be supplied. The whole of the county of Derby, and a considerable section of the West Riding, of Nottingham, and of Leicester, is covered; but in every case the supply is to be to the local authority and in bulk. If the hon. Member wishes to establish his principle, I suggest he should withdraw the Instruction in reference to this Bill, and move it in regard to a Bill which will obtain a maximum vote in its favour. The present Bill will really not bear the Instruction being moved at all.

I sympathise largely with the object the Mover of this Instruction has in view, but the resolution on the Paper will not secure that object in any way whatever. The hon. Gentleman desires to protect farmers, market gardeners, and agriculturists. To save time, I may -admit that in the collecting of water in particular areas great hardship may arise to landowners and others concerned, and that something ought to be done; but this Instruction will not in any way meet the difficulty. The Mover expressed his willingness to accept any suggestion from the President of the Local Government Board. I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman could, after mature consideration, do something in the matter; but it would be regrettable if, in any spirit of generosity, he dealt with so big a question by offering to alter the proposed words, and thereby vitally affected not only this Bill, but any other Bill of every water authority in the country. There has not been an inquiry into this aspect of the water question since .the Duke of Richmond's Commission, and if the right hon. Gentleman promised to appoint a Committee to inquire into the whole question of underground water. I think all parties interested would welcome the announcement and the inquiry would be a good thing. Without going over the whole ground, it is sufficient to say that this proposition tends to undermine the whole existing principle of water legislation. I do not want to state the reasons why there is such danger to public health from domestic meter supply. It has been referred to by the Mover of the Instruction. I do not want to go into the difficulties, financial and otherwise, which could easily be elaborated, and I shall not discuss the confusion which would arise if this Instruction were adopted. I would point out that the position of affairs is not quite so bad as the hon. Member for Rye has indicated. During the past few years the House of Commons, in its Private Bill legislation, has acted upon certain well-known principles, which ate to be found in many Water Acts. In connection with the water supply from Thirl-mere and other water supplies Parliament has laid down the general principle that the people through whose areas or territory the supplies are carried have the right on conditions to take water in bulk. I am not going into the question of calling upon great corporations to supply individuals en route. It would be absolutely out of the question that they should be obliged to do so. I think that gets out of the difficulty of supply water en route. Hon Members probably know of the debate that arose on the Wolverhampton Bill. That Bill was thrown out, and then it was that the present Speaker of the House of Commons, who was then Chairman of Committee, moved the Motion which the hon. Member for Rye has referred to. That clause in the Standing Orders, I ought to say, lays it down that any persons who can show that they are likely to be injuriously affected are to be granted a locus standi in order that they may be able to state their case before the Committee. When the Metropolitan Water Board Act was passed it was laid down that the Water Board was obliged to supply the district of Hertfordshire with water in bulk if called upon to do so. Then we come to another protecting clause, which is known as the Lord Chairman's Clause. That clause arose in this way. It was supposed that a well in one of the Royal palaces was likely to be injured by possible operations of a water corporation, and objection was taken by, I think, a Government Depart- ment, with the result that the people who brought in the Bill had finally put upon them the condition that holds the field today. A recent legal decision practically establishes that no corporation or water undertaking can sink new wells without receiving Parliamentary assent. Under all these conditions I am bound to say I do not think there is any great danger of harm accruing to anybody at the present moment, because these principles are perfectly certain to be imposed upon promoters of any of the group of Bills about which this Instruction has been brought forward. I should be glad if the Local Government Board could see their way to appoint a Committee to inquire into the question, and if possible frame some model clause which would prevent the agricultural interest from having to spend their money in coming before Parliamentary Committees to defend what undoubtedly are their rights. That I think would be a convenient and good thing, and it would go a long way to meet the difficulty so temperately and fairly put before the House by the hon. Member for Rye. I would ask the Local Government Board not hastily to give way in regard to this Instruction, which I cannot but believe would be a most dangerous precedent in connection with water legislation.

I understand that the Instruction moved by the hon. Member for Rye has reference to the Derwent Water Bill. I take it that it applies to the whole of the Bills. I wish to know whether I shall be in order in referring to the other Bill now.

On the point of order I would point out that if the discussion on this Instruction were to be held as applying to the other Bills the promoters of those Bills might be injuriously affected. It is possible that the promoters of the Derwent Water Bill may be proposing to do some things which the promoters of the other Bills are not proposing to do.

I do not think that we can discuss on this Motion the details of other Bills which are to come on later, but what can be discussed under this motion is the general principle as it has been discussed by the hon. Member for Kidderminster. As regards the details of the other Bills I do not think these can be usefully discussed at this point.

I rise to emphasise what appears to me to be the valuable suggestion made by the hon. Member for Kidderminster. This question of water supply and its appropriation by large towns for the very necessary use of their inhabitants is becoming really a national question. I do not think the question has been brought before the House in an altogether adequate form on previous occasions. It is well known that where there is a large supply of water under the surface of the ground there is a tendency for it to be kept up by moisture from the surface. But where there is an exhaustion of moisture due to climatic conditions or shortage of rainfall there is a tendency to shortage of supply. During the last decade there have been great draughts on the water supplies of the country by the wholesale tapping of watersheds, and it appears to me that this requires the careful consideration of Parliament. I would ask the President of the Local Government Board to consider this matter not only from the agricultural but from the national point of view, and I hope he will adopt the course which will be most useful for guidance in connection with Private Bill legislation in the future. As regards this particular Bill, I entirely sympathise with the hon. Member and the motive which has led him to move the Instructions, but as I happen to be a native of the Midlands and possessing some knowledge of this question I do not think this is the most favourable Bill for raising it. I feel that the exhaustion of the water supply of the agricultural districts is a very urgent question to the agricultural communities. It tends to diminish the value of land for agricultural purposes, and places a great hardship on a struggling class in this country. Although I cannot vote for the hon. Member on this occasion, I hope that in raising the question he will have some assistance from the President of the Local Government Board in order that the question may be settled.

I entirely agree with the hon. Member who proposed the Instruction in the general line of argument which he has adopted. I think that Parliament ought to take very great care in legislating to protect the agricultural interests, and I think so especially because our general law is in a very unsatisfactory condition with regard to this matter, as pointed out by the Mover of this Instruction. The real difficulty is one that we have felt in the Court of Referees for a good many years. The difficulty is that it is impossible to frame a form of words that can be inserted as a matter of course in every Water Bill. The Court of Referees found in 1897, 1898, and 1899 that it could not, because of the state of the law, give a locus standi to persons who complained. It was in consequence of that difficulty that we promoted the new Standing Order 134. Under that Standing Order it is our practice to give a locus standi to any person who has reasonable grounds for believing that he would be injuriously affected by a Water Bill. To this Bill the particular form of words which the hon. Member is pressing on the House by way of Instruction are not, in my opinion, applicable. The agricultural interests require protection, but at the same time I am afraid I must vote against the hon. Member.

When the hon. Member for Leicester tells us that he and his friends have arranged with everybody, how is it that he opposes this measure in the way he does? The hon. Member for Kidderminster quotes the well-known case of Wolverhapmton, which my predecessor so ably fought in 1901. At that time the present Member for West Birmingham made a very notable speech on this subject. He spoke on behalf of agriculturists and others, and said that full protection should be put in the Bill with the view of providing supplies of water to the localities concerned. I should like to say on behalf of the Associated Chambers of Agriculture that it is the principle we want, and that we want to safeguard the dwellers on the land.

The Instruction moved by the hon. Member who represents the Associated Chambers of Agriculture is an Instruction that we could not accept, mainly for the three excellent reasons given by the hon. Member himself. He frankly admitted that the first was a too wide description; secondly, that he did not want his Instruction to apply to urban areas; and he indicated in giving those two reasons that his real objection was to serve rather a sectional interest, which ought not to be unduly advanced on a Bill of this description.

He moves his Instruction, not on a distributive Bill to which it applies, but on a bulk supply Bill, to which, I venture to say, his Instruction does not apply at all. The hon. Member says that he does not want it to apply to urban areas; he does not think payment by meter is one of the best ways for having water supplied; and I think the third reason, which should be all-sufficient to induce us to ask the House not to accept the Instruction itself. For what does he ask? would not do much good for the ten Bills now before the House, because this is a large question and a national question, and if it is to be considered by a committee it will take at least 12 months to do it. I am not going to ask the House of Commons to allow my Department to consider this question, because that would not be even so acceptable as a committee. The Department would not be able to carry out that which a committee of the House of Commons or a committee of both Houses, if they decided on a certain course, would be able to carry out. It seems to me that a committee at this moment for this set of Bills would be out of place. The next point I wish to bring before the House is, it is all very well to ask the President of the Local Government Board or a Parliamentary Committee to establish by means of a model clause a medium by which in all the varying circumstances the water supply for each particular district which is included in a private Bill should be decided. Circumstances alter cases, and circumstances with regard to water supplies probably vary more from locality to locality than any subject that you could possibly mention. The difficulty of determining on the rate payable either in compensation or in cash in an area, and the right owners .and the interests to be properly apportioned, is probably one of the most difficult subjects you could attempt to solve by a model clause, and I venture to say under the existing circumstances no model clause could determine it. But I have done what every responsible man ought to do. I have ascertainsd what is the line of least resistance in this matter. I have consulted the authorised parties and I have tried as circumstances would allow to do rough justice to these particular Bills to all parties affected, and I gather that the suggestion which I am now making will be acceptable. We cannot accept any instruction that will impose upon domestic users of water a particular payment by meter in any circumstance whatsoever. Payment by meter may curtail the use of water so that what the consumers would save in actual cash they would lose in sanitation and in public health. Therefore payment by meter cannot be accepted. Neither can we accept any instruction that would exhaust the supply of water for domestic purposes and cause an interception of such water that was intended for domestic supply or would subordinate the needs of the whole community to trade or manufacturing interests, which in our mind ought to be sub- ordinated to the considerations of public health. I therefore propose to move:—"That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Derwent Valley Water Board Bill that they have power to inquire into and to report whether it would be practicable and reasonable to impose obligations upon the promoters to supply water by measure for agricultural purposes from the main aqueducts authorised to be laid down under the powers of the Derwent Valley Water Act, 1899, and, if so, under what conditions persons should be entitled to demand and receive such supply." It seems to me that in proposing that I am, with regard to the five Bills before the House, acting as reasonably and practically in considering the agricultural interest as agricultural Members are justified in asking, and also on the other side I am safeguarding the domestic and personal consumers of water, who have no right to have imposed upon them the conditions implied in the instruction, and I would appeal to the agricultural, trading, manufacturers, personal and dometic interests who have considered the Bills before the House to allow the hon. Member to withdraw his instruction and for this instruction to take its place. If that is done beyond that quite informally I am prepared to agree with the House that in its broad and general aspects the subject of the distribution of watersheds, the abstraction of water supplies, and the means certain districts have of abstracting water from others ought to be brought within the purview of the various Departments, and ought to be dealt with probably in a more scientific way than it has been dealt with. But sufficient for the night is the goodness thereof, and I believe that my instruction pursues the line of least resistance and produces the most good that can be embodied in words, and I ask the House to accept it in place of the Instruction which the hon. Member has moved.

The House will be prepared to hear that I would have associated myself if necessary with the resistance to the Instruction which has been moved. Now, having come down not quite knowing what we had to fight, we have to deal with an entirely new proposition made in the best spirit by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I am not quite sure whether the right hon. Gentleman's proposal takes sufficient account of the fact of the rigid conditions under which to a great extent our plant has been brought into existence, and our future functions are regulated—viz., those which constitute the undertaking chiefly, if not solely, a bulk supply. As I heard the Instruction which the right hon. Gentleman read out—I have not been favoured with a copy—I am not quite sure it would be applicable to a bulk supply, and might not possibly expose us to the danger of being put under an obligation to deal with individuals in the very way in which our original Act contemplated we should not have to do. Subject to that, and if a satisfactory explanation is forthcoming on that point, speaking for this great federation of municipalities, and the House cannot understand too clearly that it is not an association of private adventurers, but is the biggest federation in the kingdom of municipalities for water supply—it almost approaches in magnitude to a national undertaking—speaking for them, I think if a satisfactory explanation on that point is forthcoming we can accept the proposal which is made.

I am perfectly convinced in my own mind that if this Instruction is accepted, the Committee who will take the Bills into consideration will be seized of the whole situation revealed by this debate, and the requirements for the safeguarding of the bulk supply for which they have received Parliamentary powers will be amply met.

I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, with regard to the words in his Instruction, "agricultural purposes." Does that include the method of supply to cottages in rural districts; in other words, whether the word "agricultural" includes domestic supply in rural districts? I speak on behalf of a very large county, composed almost exclusively of rural districts, and one great grievance—and it is a great grievance all over the country—is that our rural districts are losing their water supply for the benefit of the towns. That is going on year by year in increasing quantities. I think we owe it a great deal to the inactivity of our County Councils in the past, who have allowed the water to be taken away and have not looked after the activities of the urban districts in this respect.

We have come to a point where we can no longer allow our supply of water to be taken from the rural districts for the towns. We are told the great thing is to bring the town people back to the country, but what is the use of bringing them back when you are taking away the only means of living and cultivating the country? I think the right hon. Gentleman has made a mistake, because I know of no case in which a landowner would be so selfish or so foolish as to grudge his water supply, which, after all, is the one great factor which enables a man to let his estate.

I thought the right hon. Gentleman said so. I apologise. In all these Water Bills the country interests should be safeguarded, not only as regards agriculture but the great adjunct to agriculture, the labourers living on the land and future planting of the land with trees. We cannot afford to have the country drained in this way. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider these things.

I do not think the Instruction which the right hon. Gentleman has foreshadowed really covers the point. He proposes to postpone the larger question for a year. A company may come into a country district, and take a certain amount of water, and for a year or two all goes well, but in a year or two after that the water supply begins to fail. I have known many cases in which six or seven years after the water is taken the country district eight or nine miles away from the town is being gradually drained. The Instruction will not meet the case, and it ought to be considered before any more Water Bills are taken at all. I should be much more pleased if all the Bills were postponed until the general question is settled. I hope the right hon Gentleman will do something to enlarge the word "agricultural" so as to safeguard the whole water supply of the country districts.

If there is one class above any other to whom a water supply is absolutely necessary it is the small holders who are now being created in such large numbers. I speak from personal experience on this matter as a member of a small holdings committee in my county. We find the greatest possible difficulty sometimes in finding the water necessary for the carrying out of this new Act. The water question is a very pressing question indeed, and has come before us again and again in connection with applications for small holdings. In many parts of the country there is a supply of water which might be made use of by the large farmers, because they can perhaps drain a certain area and make use of the water. But when it comes to parcelling out what have been large farms among small holders it is a matter of the greatest possible importance that the water should be distributed over the area in such a way that every small holder shall have the advantage of it according to his position.

I argue very strongly with the view that a time must elapse before one can know what the result of taking water away will be. No evidence that could be given before the Committee would enable the Committee to judge what the district is going to suffer. That is a matter which must transpire subsequently. If protection is to be given it must be in a form which will enable those from whom water is taken away, however long afterwards the effect may ensue, to get the water of which they have been deprived. Wells often dry gradually or suddenly, and there must be some means, whether by appeal to the County Council or otherwise, whereby compulsion can be brought to bear on the company if that takes place. In that sense I should be inclined to support the Instruction moved by the hon. Member for Rye, because it requires definitely that everybody in the district shall receive a supply at a certain price. I do not believe that a supply for agricultural purposes covers the requirements of the case. It is a rather narrow definition. The supply should be open to everybody in the district, whether purely agricultural or not.

The Instruction includes domestic as well. The question is that they should get a supply at a reasonable price. The basis of supply—whether meter or rateable value—is of no great importance. Everybody resident in the district is a user of water, and therefore should have the sufficient water supply that is necessary to their daily life. You may have a company from a town coming into that district, and I should be the last person to deprive a town of any right where we have immense communities requiring a large supply of water. In such cases I think they ought to be allowed to come into the country districts and get their water supplies. I do not think any country districts will from selfishness desire to prevent a town from getting a proper water supply. If, however, any residents in a district though the action of a town are deprived of their water supply, they certainly should have a right to have that supply at the lowest possible rate, and Parliament should provide some means whereby they should be secured that protection, and by which their requirements may be met. If the right hon. Gentleman will devise an Instruction to-meet the case I have mentioned, I think the House will accept it.

I thank the President of the Local Government Board for the trouble he has taken in this matter. It is difficult to foresee the exact result of an Instruction which we have only heard' read, and which we have not seen in print. The question of the agricultural labourer's cottage has been mentioned, and I should like to know whether the term "agricultural purposes" would include a water supply in a dairy. Perhaps the Government instead of the term "agricultural purposes" would be willing to accept "agricultural and domestic purposes in a rural district." I understand that only this Bill can be taken tonight. I admit that I have no strong: case from an agricultural point of view, and I am prepared to accept the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion to withdraw my Instruction in regard to this Bill and accept the one which he has moved. That will give us a day or two to consider the matter in regard to the other Bills. That course will satisfy my point of view with regard to the Derwent Valley Water Bill, and I ask leave to withdraw my Instruction. [Cries of "No, no."]

I think I had better state what the position is. The other Bills cannot be taken now if opposed. With regard to the Instruction suggested by the President of the Local Government Board it does not seem to me to be an .Amendment to this Instruction, and therefore the right hon. Gentleman will have to give notice of it, and it must come up on a future occasion.

From that ruling we shall not be able to pass the Instruction to-night. I do not think the word agriculture itself covers enough ground. In the first place, it would not cover the domestic supply to a farmhouse. It would not cover the supply to small laundries, to a railway station, a motor-car, or perhaps a small industry.

Taxation

moved: "That, in the opinion of this House, having regard to the circumstances of the people and the distribution of wealth, the amount of taxation raised by direct means is insufficient and unequal in comparison with that which is raised by indirect taxes, and in comparison with the material condition of those from whom such respective taxes are raised."

I propose the motion which stands in my name. I have to ask the indulgence of the House not only as one who has to address it for the first time, but as one who has also chosen a somewhat ambitious subject for the first attempt. It is not my intention to-night to anticipate the Bud-set, which is maturing in the brain of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but indeed only to call shortly the attention of the House to a few general observations. The object of the Motion is to call the attention to three points: First, to the general distribution of the wealth of this country, then to the heavy burden of indirect taxation, which at the present time is placed on the shoulders of those who are least able to bear it, and to suggest that some financial reform on a graduated scale and in a direct manner is one of the most urgent financial needs that we have to face at the present moment.

First of all with regard to the distribution of wealth in this country. I hope the House will bear with me whilst I try to make it clear. Though as a nation we are rich and getting richer, we are made up of a few rich people and a great many very poor people. Investigations into the history of the Income Tax Returns, if we accept the researches of the hon. Member for North Paddington, show that of the whole of our population there are no less than 38 millions who come under the exemption, which shows that at present they do not receive an income even as large as £160 per annum. I would ask the House to bear that in mind, as it bears upon the whole argument which I am going to address to it as regards this distribution of wealth. I do not intend to go into any long history. I simply want to deal shortly with the history of the last 10 years. If you look at the last 10 years you will see from the Income Tax Returns that these have increased by no less a sum than £238,000,000. Now, if you look further into the figures which are published by Somerset House, going no further back than the beginning of the century, you will find that 58 persons died, and each of them left estate of over a million sterling. These 58 persons amassed property amounting in the aggregate to a sum just short of £100,000,000. That is one side of the question. I should like the House just to bear in mind that in these same 10 years, if you take the position of the 38 millions to whom I have referred, their position as regards wages has been virtually stationary.

If you simply take the index number, which is published in the Board of Trade statistics, you will find, though there has been a slight boom, for instance, in 1906, and a big boom in 1907, that that boom altogether disappeared in the depression of 1908. So far as we can see, if you compare the year 1898 with the year which has just gone by, there is a slight gain of 6 per cent, in wages recorded by the Board of Trade. The Board of Trade, in its "Labour Gazette," shows that in the month of January just past, the collected total effect of all changes was a decrease in wages of nearly £2,400 per week. Side by side with that slight increase of wages of 6 per cent, you will find that the cost of living has gone up by about 10 per cent.; so that you will see the position of the great majority of the people remains almost exactly where it was 10 years ago. When, in 1907 and 1908, we saw those glowing accounts of booming returns and of record trade, it was a little sad to reflect that in the capital of this great Empire, according to the last Government Returns, in the year 46 people actually died of starvation in the streets of London—according to coroner's inquests. Indeed, if we look at the history of pauperism, it will be found that, according to last Board of Trade Return, 1 out of 21 of the Imperial race has at some time in his life had to go to the Poor Law to augment his scanty earnings. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he was speaking about old age pensions, said that as a result of that measure he was appalled by the poverty which existed in Ireland. I do not think there was any necessity to leave out England from that statement.

The right hon Gentleman did not. Well, if we take those 58 persons who left nearly one hundred millions, I think it is also a little sad to reflect that the old age pension scheme shows us that more than 600,000 of our people are left almost destitute in their old age, not to speak of a large band who are left outside the measure because their means were so poor that they had to receive Poor Law relief, and who would bring the total up to little short of a million. There is a darker side to the question. The industrial system of our country now is almost as dangerous as any battle which has to be fought by any army. If you will look at the Board of Trade Returns for the last 10 years it is almost appalling to find that 43,000 people actually met death in the industrial battle, and that more than a million were injured in trying to earn their livelihood. The one point I am trying to make clear is that in the last 10 years, judged by every available test, the wealth of the few individuals in this country is increasing and increasing rapidly. Side by side with that we have nearly 38,000,000, about seven-eighths of our population, who are virtually in a stationary condition, and, indeed, are almost getting worse in the depression with which we are now faced. Bearing that in mind, let me look for a moment and see where the burden of taxation falls. I will again only look at the last ten years. If you take the year 1898, when we raised £55,000,000 by indirect taxation, I think it is an absolutely Conservative estimate that three-fourths of that is paid by the working classes of the country. That means that £41,000,000 of our total expenditure was paid by the working classes. In 1908 there had been an increase in the amount of indirect taxation such as that on sugar and tea, which is a form of taxation that comes hardest on the very poorest of our people. You will find that in that year there was £48,000,000 paid by that class, or an increase of 14 per cent, in ten years. How does that affect them as compared with the income-tax? I think it is within the mark to say that the £48,000,000 of indirect taxation paid by those classes amounts to an income-tax of from 1s. to Is. 5d. in the £.

The total income of the country is estimated as seventeen hundred millions, probably more. If the whole expenditure were paid by income-tax then for the 127 millions raised there would be an income-tax of 1s. 5d. Surely that carries with it absolute condemnation of our present indirect system. It means that our working classes now pay an income-tax of 1s. 5d., or exactly the same as would be paid by their richer brethren. If we are ever able to have government economically it will only be when we have got almost an entire system of direct taxation. Last year the income-tax payer received a reduction, although indeed there was some given to the wage-earners and the sweated workers. But it was gentlemen like the President of the Local Government Board who obtained substantial relief in his income, though he is comparatively in an affluent position. But at present, when people have to pay directly, they realise what it means, but the great mass of our people at this moment by no means realise either the distribution of wealth or the amount of taxation which they are called upon to pay.

There is only one other point I wish to mention, and that is the absolute necessity for some means now of direct and graduated taxation. Perhaps a great many Members will question the economic theory which I am going to lay down. I have seen since I have taken an interest in politics that the whole tendency on our side of the House, and of hon. Members who are direct representatives of labour, is largely in endeavouring to shorten the hours of labour and trying to get slightly better conditions. Some of them seem to imagine that if they can shorten the hours they will create more employment. I venture to think that is an economic fallacy. The whole tendency of shortening hours and forcing better conditions on big employers and captains of industry is that you compel capital to be more economic in organisation, to put its house in order, to concentrate in Trusts, for the Trust is to be found in Free Trade England as well as in Protectionist America, and that their tendency is to force upon capital first of all labour-saving machinery, which will more than counter-balance the shortening of hours. You will enable these people to increase the productive power of the men of whom they have the command, so that capital will be more concentrated and more your master than ever. For that reason, if we are going to follow, as I suppose we are, that tendency of Liberal and Labour legislation, it is almost essential for us to accompany it by some kind of economic check, to check the concentration of capital in the only way in our power, namely, by taxation according to wealth. So far as we have seen, the democracy up to the present has been in earnest only about, and has concentrated its efforts upon, the extension of the franchise and the acquisition of political power. I believe that in the years to come, having to some extent secured political power, the democracy will have to learn to use it in tackling the question of the distribution of wealth. On one historical occasion, when Lord Clive was called to the Bar of this House, after using a strong exclamation in addressing the Speaker, he said he was astonished at his own moderation. When we realise how wealth is distributed at this moment, and where political power is now placed, I believe we, too, shall be astonished at our own moderation, and that after three years of Liberal and democratic government so much indirect taxation has been tolerated by those whom we seek to represent. I have now only to thank the House for a patient and indulgent hearing. I beg to move.

I beg to second the motion moved by my hon. Friend. Probably most Members present will agree in theory with the proposition that the taxation an individual has to bear should be in proportion to his ability to pay. But while the House would agree with that proposition in theory, in practice we generally tax a man according to his necessity rather than in accordance with his ability to pay. Nothing can be more patent to anybody who takes notice of what is in the public mind at present than the deep dissatisfaction in the country with the existing adjustment of taxation. Various causes have been given for the apparent change in the views of the electorate since the last election. Some hon. Members attribute it to what they call Socialism, but I think the cause will really be found in the question of taxation—in the dissatisfaction of people who find that their burdens, both local and Imperial, are increasing, without there being any corresponding increase in their incomes. The position in which we find ourselves is that we have no real index to the wealth of the country. It might be not unnaturally assumed that the income tax returns would show both the numbers of the people receiving the money and also the way in which the total wealth is distributed. Through no fault of this House or of the country, however, but through the lack of determination on the part of successive Governments, we are denied the elementary information which must be in the possession of the Treasury as regards both the receipt and the distribution of income. A recent committee appointed by the Government to inquire into the question of the Income Tax strongly recommended that there should be by each taxpayer a personal declaration. That personal declaration would be not only an index of the total wealth of the country, but also the number of persons receiving it and in what proportions. I am curious to know what defence there can be from a Liberal Cabinet why so simple a thing is denied to the country—why that information which is so essential for the readjustment of taxation is not supplied. My hon. Friend has pointed out the enormous increase that has taken place in the last ten years in the income brought to the notice of the Income Tax Commissioners. It amounts to no less than £238,000,000. That is the increase in the yearly income of this country. I submit that it is really essential for us to have information from the Treasury as regards the distribution of income, because there is no greater hindrance to progress in this country than the ignorance as to the distribution of wealth. It is a delusion of the lower middle class that they are wealthy. By the lower middle class I mean those who are immediately above the wage earners, and who comprise small tradesmen and some professional men, and it is a delusion which, so far as I can make out, arises from the fact that they are compelled to pay more than their fair share of the rates of the country. If we are denied the Income Tax Returns we have at least one index which is to be found in the Returns made to the Inland Revenue Authority on the death of the owners of wealth. Estate Returns are not complete, and are not a correct index of wealth, especially with regard to the larger estates. But they do show the proportion of wealth which is in the hands not only of the workers of the country and those who belong to the middle class. These Returns show that 94 per cent, of people who die leave nothing. They comprise the workers of the country. But the Returns prove a great deal more, and I am not quite sure that the lower middle class realise what the Returns mean. There are 67,000 estates passed every year. The remarkable fact which is brought out is that two-thirds of the people who die leaving property in this country leave less than £1,000. I have heard from the Treasury Bench and also outside this House that the cause of poverty in this country is gambling and drinking. I am not here to defend either, though if drink leads to poverty, quite as often poverty induces drinking, but I am going to call attention to a few figures in order to show that it is neither gambling nor drinking that leads to poverty in this country. Taking the two-thirds of the people who die leaving less than £1,000, whom do they comprise? Any practising lawyer will tell you that they comprise small tradesmen, small farmers and professional men. These men, forming some of those leaving property, after a life of arduous labour, economy, thrift, and sobriety, are able to leave less than £20 a year for those dependent upon them. I ask hon. Gentlemen who talk about the gambling and drinking habits of the poor whether that is a great inducement either to sobriety or thrift.

There is another marvellous feature. These Returns show that the distribution of wealth is the same year by year. One is struck with their monotonous regularity. The Chancellor of the Exchequer or his advisers can predict with absolute certainty at the beginning of every year the number of people who will die during the year leaving £l,000 or £25,000, and so on, and this seems to prove that the possible wealth of members of a class is not dependent on their habits, but is limited and defined by the social and economic conditions of the class in which they live. There is a delusion that the wealth of the country is in the hands of the middle? classes. If they were not individually the owners of great wealth it was assumed that collectively they owned the wealth of the country, but it was not so. The Returns show that only one in 40 leaves £25,000, but whilst the 40 share 135 millions, the one represents 157 millions. It is perfectly well known to every lawyer in the country that the owners of property, and particularly recent owners of property, by every means in their power evade the estate duty. I know of an estate which was valued at £40,000; and yet the owner of it presented to his children before death no less than £60,000, on not a penny of which Estate Duty was paid. The figures I have given to the House are based on the assumption that the estates come within the terms of the Act. If these figures are misleading, as I contend they are, they do not disclose the real wealth, and therefore the disproportion between those who have money and those who have not is much larger than I stated. We have heard a good deal of sympathy wasted on the rich on account of Estate Duties. We had a bishop appealing from the pulpit of a cathedral church that the son of a millionaire who recently died should not be asked to contribute as generously as his father had done. One would think all the burden of Empire was borne and paid for by the Estate Duties. Only last year the total sum paid by way of Estate Duties was only £14,500,000, while the food taxes alone—taxes on tea, sugar, cocoa and dried fruit—amounted to no less than £13,000,000. Will hon. Members opposite who are so fond of sympathising with their race say whether that is a fair distribution of taxes and of the burden of Empire?

The £14,000,000 is the proportion of the Death Duties' taxation which is paid by the rich class annually. The other taxes to which the hon. Member refers are also paid annually by the poor, but the rich pay their share, of course, of the food taxes.

I do not speak of the contribution. I rather pointed out that the Estate Duty is only payable by particular persons once in a lifetime, or rather on the death of one individual, while on the other hand the tax on food is paid every year by the same individual. The real point that ought to be borne in mind is this: That the Estate Duty is exacted out of money which remains to people after every comfort of this life is acquired, while on the other hand the food duties are exacted out of the necessities of the poor. The Prime Minister the other night, speaking to a deputation upon the wages paid in certain sweated industries, pointed out that the wages were too small to allow the wage earners to provide the necessaries of life, and yet those very people are taxed on the necessaries of life.

During the last seven years there has been paid to the Treasury in Death Duties £97,000,000, a very substantial sum I admit, but there has also been paid to the Treasury in the same number of years no less than £93,500,000 in the way of indirect taxation. Therefore the contributions of the rich have only been £3,500,000 more than the contributions of the poor. The wealthy community has gone on increasing in wealth year by year and accumulating that wealth. I find from the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the total sum invested at the end of last year in the Post Office and Trustee Savings Banks came to £211,000,000. That represents the savings of the poor, but the increase in the annual return for Income Tax represents no less than £240,000,000. It is suggested that we should go in for what is called the broadening of taxation, but what we really desire is that the taxation should be narrowed to the class which apparently have obtained the wealth of the country. It is said that the result of taxation has been that capital has left the country. That unfortunately is only too true, but I am not sure that it is true in the manner in which hon. Members are in' the habit of putting it. The man-hood of the country is leaving it, and there is an exodus of its best manhood. From the last Return furnished by the Government it appears that no less than 375,000 people left this country, and there was an increase in the number of emigrants of no less than 100 per cent, during the last ten years. What is the reason? Can any serious man get up in this House and say that there is not enough wealth to secure a fair and substantial sum for the maintenance of every man and his family? The truth of the matter lies in this: that the economic conditions of this country, controlled to a very large extent by this House, make life too hard, if not indeed impossible, with the result that a large number of the best men of the country are leaving it for foreign parts, and I do appeal, if I may, to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider whether some considerable alleviation cannot be effected in the sum which is contributed year by year by the poor out of their poverty, and whether considerable relief cannot be effected in the burden which falls upon the lower middle class. What we really desire is that this House should have the courage to say that those who own the wealth of the country should in future bear their fair proportion of the burden of the Empire.

Question proposed.

The Mover and Seconder of the resolution both divided their speeches into two parts. The first part is the distribution of wealth in the country and the second part is taxation. On the first part I think they have laid the most stress. If a readjustment of the wealth of the country has to come, and I am far from saying that wealth is fairly distributed, the way which would cause the largest amount of irritation and which would have the smallest effect is by taxation, which exists for purposes of revenue and not for the purpose of readjusting inequality. On the second part, the incidence of taxation, I agree with a great deal which has fallen from the seconder. No one can really defend the present system. I should like to show the exact way in which indirect taxes fall on those who can least bear them. We raise about half our revenue from indirect taxes, and nearly all those taxes are in such a form that every person in the country must pay an equal amount of taxation. Take the sugar duties. They are really a poll tax on each person in the country. I do not want to touch the fiscal question because it is outside our purview, but all these taxes are on articles which we do not import, and therefore the whole tax is placed upon the consumer. As soon as you come to luxuries even the poorest homes would still find that they are taxed very heavily. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will agree that plum puddings are taxed. Plum pudding, sweets for the children, tobacco, and even beer are very heavily taxed indeed, and all these are luxuries which are used in all the homes of the Kingdom. On that ground I think our present system is quite indefensible. It means that all these taxes are paid by those who can least afford to pay them. We all want in one form or another to tax wealth, especially the unproductive wealth of the country. The only question is the way to do it. It is sometimes assumed that all the Income Tax is paid entirely by dukes and millionaires.

It is a direct tax on industry. It is paid by the big concerns that carry on our great industries, and so if you increase this Income Tax you do not get at the duke or the millionaire, but you put a direct tax on industry. That is not the only objection. I regard the Income Tax as a great reserve or stand-by in case of war. I think that it is a permanent part of our system on some side or other, but I do think that there is great danger in increasing it. But my main point is that it is a direct tax on industry.

If you want to tax wealth and unproductive capital there is a better system of doing it. By a system of duties you can tax a man more or less according to his means of payment. At present you do not. I cannot think that it is beyond the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to draw into his net some fraction of the vast amount of unproductive wealth of the country. Under the Income Tax, even when you tax the individual, all you tax him on is the money that comes in to him. If you tax him on his luxuries you tax him on his expenditure also, and therefore you get a second shot at him. There must be some way by which we can detach for the revenue of the country some portion of the growing expenditure on luxuries. It is not for me to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I can think of various ways. Within a mile of this House there is a vast stream of wealth, theatres, shops and hotels, that is pure surplus wealth. Theatres are pure luxuries, and the man who pays a half-guinea for his stall can afford a shilling or two more. So on with all these large hotels and large shops for the sale of luxuries. There surely must be some way of taxing that amount of wealth. I should go further, and suggest a system of import duties for the provision of revenue. I do not touch any question outside revenue. It seems to me that there, again, you can relieve the poor taxpayer and relieve industry, and at the same time get your money. I know that may sound a rather strange thing to strong Free Traders, but still I do believe that you would get your money more easily in that way and with less friction and less harm to the individual and to the industry. In the first place, the individual does not know what he is paying.

The thing you have to look to is whether you are putting on the taxpayer a burden that makes a difference in his life. I do not mean to say that you should juggle with these things and pretend that a man is paying less in taxation than he really is. If you can impose a tax which is not a burden upon the daily life of a man then you have gained so much. I am not so sure that the fact that a tax is perceptible is a real incentive to economy. I do not think it is.

I should like for a few moments to deal with a system which can be worked out without being attended with the evils which accompany our present system. One of the old canons of taxation upon which statesmen have worked for years is ability to pay. There is no doubt that indirect taxes are not paid according to the principle of ability to pay. In the case of indirect taxes raised upon beer, spirits, tea, sugar, and tobacco, if a man does not consume any of those articles he can almost escape taxation altogether. I do not think that is fair, because, after all, we should all pay something towards the upkeep of the country. On that ground alone a change in our present system is required. Another ground is that of convenience to the taxpayer, because if you can devise a tax which will extract money from the pockets of the taxpayers with little or no inconvenience then you gain to that extent. I do not think that you gain the object of the mover by merely increasing the income tax. With regard to emigration and unemployment to remedy those evils you must protect your industries and keep capital in this country. My opinion is that if you increase the income tax only you will be sure to decrease the volume of capital invested in this country, and after all this is productive capital, it employs labour, and increases the wealth of the country.

I feel great diffidence in getting up to speak on this subject at this late hour of the night. I do so because there are certain figures which the hon. Member who, if I may say so, made this Motion in such delicate terms, is, I think, a little mistaken in. For instance, according to his figures, it would appear that the greater part of the indirect taxation of this country was paid by the working classes. Now, as a matter of fact, in the last Budget of 1908, the total estimates to be raised for the year were £154,350,000. Of that sum no less than £65,865,000 were to be paid in direct taxation, including duties on wine, cigars, licenses for men servants, and armorial bearings. What was left over were taxes which the people who paid direct taxation shared as much as those who paid indirect taxation and receipts from various sources.

I said that it was a Conservative estimate that three-quarters of the indirect taxation was paid by the working classes.

I do not see quite how the hon. Member gets the estimate, but I get my figures from the records of what took place in this House. These are the actual figures—

So far as I can gather—I daresay I am very stupid—I can only say the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman is as to the amount of indirect taxation that the working classes of this country pay. At all events, granted that it is so, I am sure the hon. Member will understand that there is no single person sitting on these benches who is not as anxious as he is that any inequality or hardship in the taxation of the country should be removed at once. But I do honestly think that if he takes the question of a graduated income tax, he will not be doing what he wishes to do.

You may tax the rich people of this country out of existence. What happens? First of all go carriages and horses, then motor cars are put down, shooting is done away with, and the extra luxuries. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "Horrible!"] Certainly the result is horrible, because it increases the unemployment of the country.

How is it that the working classes live? You may get any system of sumptuary legislation you like. It has been tried in other countries. It was tried in Spain by Philip IV. The result was that that country quickly decayed, and the working classes got worse. You may do it in this country, and if you find that there are no people who will pay for luxuries, which they cannot purchase, it simply means adding to the unemployed. I should like to quote to the House the words of the late Sir William Harcourt, who was certainly not extra lenient on what we may call the monied classes. In 1894, when he introduced his celebrated Budget, he said in reference to a graduated income tax:— from the people of this country the incentive to do the best they can with their talents you will soon get this country into a very bad state. In my humble way I should always do the best I could to oppose the Socialistic doctrines which discourage people from doing the best they can with the talents which Providence has bestowed upon them. I may be perfectly wrong, but I think that is the old idea which has built up this country—namely, that if the people do the best they can their property will be safe, whereas, according to the ideas of the present day, if one person is more prosperous than another his property is to be taken away from him, and he is to be mulcted in excessive taxation. But we on this side have got what we consider a remedy for any inequality under which the people of this country are living, and that is Tariff Reform. Tariff Reform would give employment to the people of this country, and would be to the advantage of the more deserving. If it does not do that, and the people have to get commodities from foreign countries, then foreigners sending commodities into this country will have to pay something for the privilege of doing so. Surely that is a sound policy. At all events, it is common sense, and it is a policy which is making its way into the minds of the people.

And it being Eleven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned.

Trustees' Accounts Bill

moved the second reading of the Trustees' Accounts Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

moved, "That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee."

Question put; objection taken; Motion negatived.

Committee of Privileges

Motion made: "That the Committee of Privileges be nominated of Mr. Attorney-General, Sir Henry Aubrey-Fletcher, Mr. Balfour, Mr. Ellis, Mr. MacNeill, the Prime Minister, and Mr. John Wilson (Durham).

"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:

"That Five be the quorum."— [ Mr. Joseph Pease. ]

Motion agreed to.

Debtors (Imprisonment)

Motion made: "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the existing Law relating to the Imprisonment of Debtors, and to report whether any amendments are desirable:

"That Mr. Stopford Brooke, Mr. Byles, Mr. Stephen Collins, Mr. Delany, Mr. Robert Duncan, Mr. Ferens, Mr. George Gibbs, Mr. Hodge, Mr. Keswick, Mr. John Phillips, Mr. Pickersgill, Mr. Rendall, Mr. Wadsworth, Lord Willoughby de Eresby, and Mr. Wills be Members of the Committee:

"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:

"That Five be the quorum."—[ Mr. Joseph Pease. ]

Motion agreed to.

Supply (3rd March)

[Report.]

Resolution reported: "That a supplementary sum not exceeding £610 be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge coming in course of payment in the year ending 31st March, 1909, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Secretary of State for the Colonies."

Resolution read a second time.

Motion made and question proposed: "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

It is said to have been found necessary, owing to growth of work, to increase the staff of the Colonial Office. We were under the impression that the work of that office had decreased during the last year or two, and that, seeing they had no longer to do the anxious work connected with the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies, the amount asked for would have decreased rather than increased. We should therefore like an explanation on this point.

With regard to a decrease of work in consequence of the Transvaal and Orange River Colonies having been granted self-government, in point of fact the work has not decreased; the normal increase in the work of the Office has quite made up for the relief caused in the manner stated. The increased expenditure has been in various directions. One obvious reason is that the labour staff has been increased, owing to our having taken over further accommodation from the Home Office. Then we have increased the scale of pay for the typists, which I think was only reasonable; we have added to the typists, and there is also a telephone-room attendant. These were necessary additions. There is one item of interest which appears in the Supplementary Estimate. We found it necessary to make an allowance for travelling expenses for a member of the Department. That has been caused by the visit of Sir Charles Lucas to Australia following out a proposal made by the Colonial Conference and highly approved both by the Australians and the Government here. I understand also that it met with the approval of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I think I have explained, so far as it is possible to do so, the reason of the increase, and I trust that I have satisfied the hon. Gentleman.

I think the explanation we have had is so far not unsatisfactory. We find that the increase is partly due to the attempt at least to find something of value to our fellow citizens across the sea. I think everyone in this House will be of opinion that that is a step in the right direction. The extra money expended in attempting to learn what our fellow citizens across the sea are thinking of our doings here is well expended, and no one in this House will make any objection whatever. In fact, they would rather see a great deal more expended on that and less on some things which are rather detrimental to our national position and character.

Resolution agreed to.

Resolution of Committee that a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to pay the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Registrar-General of Births, etc. (Scotland), agreed to.

Resolution reported, and read a second time: "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £4,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1909, for salaries and expenses in connection with the reformatory and industrial schools of Great Britain."

Motion made and Question proposed: "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

This is rather a large amount, and I think we should have a word of explanation.

I was informed that there was no intention to debate this, and therefore the minutes are not here.

This question was put across the floor of the House the other evening, and a full explanation was given by the Under-Secretary for the Home Department. The explanation was accepted as quite satisfactory by hon. Members who were in their places on that occasion.

I think the right hon. Gentleman is in error. I do not think there has been any discussion on this Vote. I find that in the supplementary estimate under the head of "Appropriations in aid" there is the following note:

"The falling off in the amount collected from the parents of children under detention in the schools is attributable to lack of means of support consequent on the industrial depression."

That is a very important matter, because it shows that there is in this particular Department of the Government the opinion that there is great industrial depression in the country at the present moment.

I can assure the hon. Baronet that an explanation was made. He really must have forgotten it.

I was not aware of the explanation, but as it was an easy one perhaps the right hon. Gentleman himself will tell us what was the explanation.

I think I can remember a little of the explanation that was given to me. It was to the effect that more young persons were sent to reformatories on account of the abnormal want of work throughout the country.

Vote agreed to.

Resolution reported, and read a second time: "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £4,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1909, for the salaries and expenses of the Customs Department."

Motion made, and question proposed: "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

On the Supplementary Vote of £4,000 for the Customs Department—

I move that the amount be reduced by £100. This is an extraordinary Vote in aid. It is said that the deficiency is due to the amount of fees under the Merchant Shipping Act. I should like to know what that means. Any one who had the framing of this Estimate must have known that there would be a falling off in these fees. I have given notice on more than one occasion of my intention to call attention to this matter, and I expected that the President of the Board of Trade would be in his place to give some explanation.

May I point out that the motion of my hon. Friend would not be a reduction of the appropriation in aid. The appropriation in aid is £ 52,000, whereas it should be £56,200. It lies upon this House to make up the appropriation in aid. The motion can hardly be in order, because it is asking to reduce a Vote which the House is asking to increase.

I have not seen any notice handed in. It was not handed to me, and I know nothing about it.

It has been on the paper for some time, and it has been printed upon the Order Paper. I would like an explanation because it is of enormous importance to shipowners. These fees are charged upon tonnage, and not upon value, and it would cost as much to shipowners to transfer 100 tons from a small vessel as to transfer 100 tons from the "Lusitania" and "Mauretania," though the small vessel is worth £3 or £4 a ton while the "Mauretania" is worth £40 a ton. Any man of business capacity at the head of a business department like the Board of Trade, ought to know there would be a falling off in those transfers, and ought not to be in the humiliating position of coming before this House and asking for this. It shows a lack of business capacity and foresight, and I think I am entitled to some explanation; and if I am in order I would move that this supplementary Vote be reduced by £100.

May I point out that the hon. Member was on his feet to move his Motion before you put the question that the House do agree with the Committee?

That does not make any difference. No notice was given of any kind. There is no notice on the paper.

The difficulty arises in this way. The notice was on the paper, but it was not expected the Vote would come up to-day, and it was not reprinted and put upon the Order Paper.

Perhaps the hon. Member who raised this question will accept a short explanation as to how this has arisen. It has arisen in respect of a Vote of very nearly £2,000,000 sterling, and is in respect of the following matters: Clause 3, 61 and 62 Vic., relating to Merchant Shipping, has the following condition:—

"Such fees shall be paid in respect of registration transfer (including transmission) and mortgage on British shipping as the Board of Trade with the consent of the Treasury shall determine."

It is in respect of these fees that an unexpected shortage has taken place. I think, as a matter of fact, this point has not arisen for something like twenty years, and although it is very unfortunate that a shortage should have taken place, I think it would have been very unusual to expect it on so large a Vote, on which, in ordinary circumstances, deficiences could have been made up from some other part of the Vote—a perfectly regular and ordinary course. It is perfectly unexpected that such an increase should have taken place, but I think the Board of Trade are not to be blamed for it, and, it having taken place, we have to come to the House for the deficiency. That is a full and unreserved explanation of the present deficiency.

This is a very important question, and we expected, in view of the informal notice given by my hon. Friend the other night, that we should have sitting on those Benches the President of the Board of Trade. May 1 read what my hon. Friend said on that occasion: "I have given notice of an Amendment to this Vote, but as right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench are anxious to go home, I will postpone it. But I wish the Chancellor of the Exchequer to know it is my intention to press for information with regard to this Vote." This is the only opportunity we have, and surely it would only be an act of courtesy to a number of shipowners who are Members of the House, and to those interested in the shipping industry that we should have been able to have a full, precise, and more detailed explanation from the President of the Board of Trade. I think we have a very reasonable grievance to raise, and I do hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will see his way to postpone the Vote until the President of the Board of Trade can be here. I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and question, "That the debate be now adjourned"—put, and negatived.

I should not like the hon. Member to run away with the idea that any Member of the Government has been guilty of discourtesy. It is not really in the Department of the President of the Board of Trade at all, but purely a Customs matter, and the falling off has been entirely due to the fact that the shipbuilding trade has been very bad in the past year, and therefore there have been fewer ships registered. It is not merely due to the fact that trade is bad, but also to the fact that there was a strike which lasted for several months. There were fewer ships and mortgages registered, and there was a considerable shortage in the amount. That is the explanation of the whole vote.

Vote agreed to.

Consolidated Fund (No.1) Bill

Considered in Committee

[The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Caldwell) in the chair.]

I have an Amendment to Clause 1, which, I think, will be accepted by the Government. It is to insert in line 16, after the first "of," "old age pensions in."

This Amendment will not be in order. The title of the Bill is "to apply sums." what the hon. Baronet wishes to put in is to appropriate a sum to old age pensions, and that is outside the title of the Bill.

May I respectfully point out that Mr. Deputy-Speaker yesterday ruled that the meaning and object of this Bill was to apply a sum which was included in it to a particular object, and he gave that ruling on the ground that the Report stage of no other Vote had been obtained, and therefore it was unnecessary to put any special clause in the Bill appropriating any particular sum, because as no other Report stage had been moved this sum could only be appropriated to one object. In the last hour two or three Report stages have been moved, and, therefore, there are other sums which are now voted towards the supply granted to His Majesty. There fore, under this Bill, the sum of £910,000 can be applied, not particularly to old age pensions, as the Government have said, but to other sums the Reports of which have been taken this evening. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman has not got up to support me on this point of order, because I am only trying to appropriate—

I am going to vote against Clause 1 standing part of the Bill. I was against old age pensions, and voted against it last year, but, it having been passed, I want to see this £910,000 devoted solely to this purpose. Now, the right hon. Gentleman opposite wants apparently to appropriate it to all sorts of other purposes.

I have a personal reason for voting against this clause. It is not that I am, or ever was, opposed to old age pensions. But, when this Bill was considered before, we were informed that because there was no other Vote that had passed the Report stage, therefore this money would be bound, if this clause were adopted, to go to old age pensions. I cannot see that you could have given any other ruling than that which you have given, and, according to that, if we pass this clause in that shape, it will not be obligatory on the Government to apply this money to old age pensions. Somebody on behalf of the Government stated distinctly when this Bill was up before that it was intended to devote the whole of this money to old age pensions. But now that the Bill leaves it open to the Government to do what they like with this money, we are entitled to object. Some of us have very grave doubts about old age pensions — that is about where the money is to come from. In reply to repeated inquiries when the matter was before the House of Commons last year, we were told we would have to wait until the Budget this year to see where the money was to come from. We were told that the £910,000 was wanted under this clause in respect of the period ending the 31st of this month. Some of us would like to know where the money is to come from after the 31st of March down to the Budget. If the Government are going to ask for this £910,000 to apply to some other purpose, it would be distinctly irregular and a breach of faith with this House. That is the reason why I oppose the first clause.

I had hoped that it would have been possible for me to add to this Bill an appropriation clause, but I have been informed that that is not possible. I wish to know whether, if this Bill passes in its present form, the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not, as a matter of fact, spend part of this money on the provision, for example, of more typists at the Colonial Office, or expenses at the Lord Advocate's Office.

I think it has already been explained that this money could not be applied to any purposes of that kind. I will tell the House what the effect of the Motion moved by the hon. Baronet will be. He proposes to omit Clause 1, and that clause proposes the money should be issued out of the Consolidated Fund for the payment of £910,000 for a supply grant for old age pensions up to 31st March. If the hon. Baronet succeeds in his Motion, there will be no money to pay the old age pensions up to 31st March. I think the Committee should know what they are voting upon.

My Motion was that this money should be devoted to the payment of old age pensions, and I do not want it to be utilised for the pecuniary insolvency of the present Government. Although they could find £150,000 for this week, they could not find it for next week. When a man is hard up one does not know what expedients he will not take, and I do not want to put too much temptation in the way of the Government. I believe at the present moment the Treasury Bench is in a very serious and awkward position, and this is the first time during the last 100 years that a Financial Secretary has come down to the House and stated that he could not find £150,000 next week. I am prepared to withdraw my opposition to this grant, and I hope the Government will rise superior to all the temptations before them and devote this money to the object for which it is intended.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give me an assurance that this money will be used for old age pensions and for that purpose only?[Cries of "Order, order."]

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read a third time to-morrow.

And it being after half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at thirteen minutes before Twelve o'clock.