House of Commons
Wednesday, March 10, 1909
Private Bill
Kirkwall Water Provision at Order Bill. —Ordered for third reading on Friday.
Agrarian Outrages (Ireland)
moved for a classified return of agrarian outrages of an indictable character reported throughout Ireland in each of the years 1906, 1907, and 1908.
Motion agreed to.
Expulsion of Aliens (Correspondence With Judge Rentoul)
moved for an Address for Correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Home Department and His Honour Judge Rentoul, K.C., on the subject of the Expulsion of Aliens.
Motion agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Unification of South Africa
asked whether, if unification is accomplished in South Africa, the settlers in the Orange River Colony and the Transvaal will be consigned to the care of the administration of the Unified Parliament or to the Provisional Councils?
Land settlement is not among the subjects reserved to the Provincial Councils by the draft Bill, and it is therefore, I presume, contemplated that the subject should be dealt with by the Union Government and Parliament.
Canada and the West Indies
asked whether the English members of the Royal Commission, to consider the commercial relations between Canada and the West Indies, have been appointed; and, if so, whether he is in a position to name them?
No, Sir; they have not yet been appointed.
Duties in West African Colonies
asked whether, in the case of any change in duties made by the administrators of any of the West African Colonies, instructions will be given for a notification immediately to be issued in order that merchants trading with such Colonies may be made aware of the changes as soon as possible?
Any change in duties is immediately notified in the Colonies, where all the merchants have agents, and where there are local Chambers of Commerce. Such changes are reported in the Government Gazettes, copies of which are supplied direct to the Chambers of Commerce in England. The administration of the West African Colonies is not conducted from the Colonial Office, and the Secretary of State would not feel justified in directing the Governors to supply telegraphic information as to tariff changes to commercial bodies at home, as appears to be suggested, when ample means exist already for the communication of such intelligence from private sources to those interested.
Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that the West African Colonies are not administered from the Colonial Office?
Certainly. As far as direct administration is concerned, that is in the hands of the Governor and the local officials.
Chatham Dockyard
asked whether any person has lately been ejected from Chatham Dockyard on suspicion of being a spy; of what nationality was the suspected person; and whether he was a resident in this country?
No such person has lately been ejected from Chatham Dockyard for the reason suggested.
Has any person been ejected for any reason?
I did not ask on that ground. I only asked whether any person had been ejected as a spy.
Has any suspect been ejected?
No.
Warships (British Forgings)
asked whether the Admiralty stipulate that all forgings used in the construction of warships by private firms shall be of British manufacture; and whether forgings of foreign manufacture are allowed to be used in the construction of warships in the Government dockyards?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative.
Is it because they are cheaper than foreign goods?
No. They are used because in time of war we should have to rely on British supplies.
Rosyth Foreshore
asked whether the foreshore at Rosyth required for the proposed naval base is Crown property; and, if not, what extent of land covered by high tide has been purchased, and what price was paid for it?
The foreshore acquired was not Crown property, but was purchased by the Admiralty as part of the adjacent estates. The area of foreshore purchased is 286 acres. No specific part of the purchase money was assigned for the foreshore, consequently the price for it cannot be stated.
H.M.S. "Dreadnought" (12-inch Guns)
asked, in view of the length of time which has elapsed since the "Dreadnought" was laid down, whether the information as to the date of order of the ten 12-inch guns and their mountings which were placed on board that ship is any longer considered confidential; and, if not, on what date or dates these orders or contracts were given out and the date on which the ship was laid down?
The dates of order of heavy guns and mountings are considered confidential.
Why is information as to a ship which has been built for over two years considered confidential?
Because it would give a very fair inference as to what the present type of construction of guns is.
Is not the reason that the rapid building of the "Dreadnought" was faked by using the guns and mountings which were ordered for the "Lord Nelson" and "Agamemnon" on board the "Dreadnought"?
The hon. Gentleman is entitled to his own opinion upon this and any other subject. I have answered the question.
Fleet Organisation
asked whether there is a recognised numerical ratio between battleships, cruisers, and torpedo craft in an organised sea-going fleet; and, if so, what that ratio is?
No, Sir, since the units composing a sea-going fleet depend on the service the fleet is engaged upon.
Navy (Short Service Men)
asked how many short-service men yearly enter the Navy; what is the estimated saving in the cost of training ships due to employing short-service men instead of long-service men; and whether the short-service system is now considered a satisfactory one?
The average number of short-service seamen entered annually during the last four years is 480. The effect of the employment of short-service men instead of long-service men upon the cost of training ships cannot be estimated. Reports on special service seamen have been satisfactory on the whole.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any estimate as to the cost of saving on pensions due to the same cause?
If the hon. Member will kindly give me notice of that I will inquire.
Naval Armaments (Saving)
asked what proportion of the £15,000,000 saved on armaments in the last three years has been saved by the Admiralty; and the amounts severally saved under the different heads of expenditure?
The actual gross expenditure on naval services for the two years ended 31st March, 1906, was … £79,736,541
The hon. Member will find the details on pages 4 and 5 of the Navy Estimates.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman counting in his calculations Estimates not framed by his own Government?
I am counting for the precise years which the hon. Member is asking for.
My question was what proportion of the £15,000,000 is saved by the present Government?
No, the question does not say that. I have endeavoured to give such answer as I thought the hon. Member asked for.
Great Britain and Belgium (Treaties)
asked whether this country is still under an obligation by treaty to maintain the integrity of Belgium?
The treaties signed in London on 19th April, 1839, under which Great Britain, together with Austria, France, Prussia, and Russia, guarantee the independence and neutrality of Belgium are still in force.
Rosyth (Granite)
asked what will be the difference in the cost of the granite for the new Naval base at Rosyth if it is dressed in Norway or in this country?
The Admiralty have no information on this subject. Under the contract we pay for granite set in place in the work.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman arrange to have the granite dressed in this country instead of Norway?
No. The contract is let to a contractor. It is the contractor's business to determine whether the granite shall be worked in this country or in its place of origin if the granite should prove to be foreign granite.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the standard sample of granite with which the granite for use at Rosyth is to be compared is British or Scandinavian; and, if the latter, why he selected foreign granite for such sample?
There is no "standard" sample of granite. The contractors have to provide granite up to the specification, and they send in a sample of the granite which they propose to supply, which must be approved.
Was it stipulated that the foreign granite tendered for should be at least equal to the best British granite?
No; it was stipulated that the granite used, whether British or foreign, should be suitable to the work.
Might the granite supplied be below the sample?
No; the contractor supplies the sample with which he proposes to execute the work. He does not tender up to that sample because his tender has been already accepted.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Scottish Granite Company, Limited, sent in a tender for the supply for Rosyth; if so, could he say what price was mentioned in this tender; whether the price was below that accepted for Scandinavian granite; and, if it was, why their tender was not accepted?
As I have already explained, the Admiralty did not call for any tenders for granite, but for the whole work, leaving it to the firms invited to tender to make their own arrangements for the supply of materials. The Admiralty do not therefore deal with the subject mentioned in the question.
Is not it possible to find out from the contractor whether there was not a British contractor for this granite at a lower price than the Norwegian contractor?
No. If the hon. Member gives the matter his attention for one moment, he will see that there could be no contract. No contractor knew that he was going to get our work. Therefore no contractor was going to enter into a contract with foreigners who had not our contract. When the contractor got our contract, he would for the first time enter into contracts on his side.
Are we to understand that it is still open to the contractor to make a contract for the supply of British granite instead of Norwegian granite?
Yes, it is perfectly optional to the contractor to do so; but as it would cost him, I understand, some £30,000 more to do so, I assume, on the facts that have been presented to me, that he will in fact buy foreign granite.
Is British capital invested in these quarries? Are British workmen largely engaged on public work there at wages higher than those which they have been paid by British quarry owners for working granite? And is it not a fact that the lower price of the foreign granite is determined by the fact that no mining royalties are payable on this granite?
With regard to the first portion of the question I am informed that the facts are as suggested. As regards that portion of the question which refers to royalties, I have not sufficient information to say how much of the difference in price is due to this factor; but no doubt the royalties would be a material factor in accounting for the difference.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are no royalties paid on the Aberdeen granite? Will he lay the specifications before the House?
I have no specifications for the granite contract. The specifications for the granite contract are gone into by the contractor. All we have to do is ask for an alternative price from the contractor as to what he would charge for the whole cost of the work if he were allowed to use granite from any source; and what he would charge if he were obliged to use granite from British sources only.
May we see that specification?
There is no specification. That is a mere quotation.
Are you aware that there are no mining royalties on Aberdeen granite?
I will inquire further into that question.
Customs and Coastguard Changes
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is yet in a position to state when the changes contem- plated by the Government in regard to His Majesty's Customs and Coastguard will be laid before the House; and whether the latter will have full liberty to discuss the same?
As stated in answer to the hon. Member for Fareham yesterday, no decision has been arrived at in regard to the transfer of the revenue duties of the Coastguard to the Board of Customs. As the introduction of a Bill would be necessary to give effect to any such change, if it were made, the House would have full opportunity of discussing the question.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he anticipates that a Bill will be introduced this Session?
I do not think it is likely to be introduced this Session. I do not say whether any such Bill will be introduced at all. That is still under consideration.
Granite Contractors (Norway)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the reason why the names and situations of the granite quarries in Norway whence the granite for Rosyth is to be supplied cannot be given to the House?
Because the Admiralty do not know from what quarries the contrators intend to order their granite, and as no samples have yet been submitted or approved, no granite, British or foreign, can yet have been ordered.
May we hope that the names of these foreign contractors will be supplied by the chief contractors when they have decided whom they will get the granite from?
I have no doubt that the contractors will be perfectly willing to inform us from whom they purchase the granite.
There is immense interest taken on this subject. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will make inquiries.
Workmen Compensation Act, 1906 (Underwriters)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether 300 underwriters at Lloyds issue policies against liability under the Workmen Compensation Act, 1906; and what number, if any, of them have made the necessary deposit in compliance with Schedule 1 (1) of the Employers Liability Act, 1907.
The hon. Member further asked what number of underwriters have deposited the sum of £2,000, in compliance with Section 1 of the Schedule to the Employers Liability (Insurance Companies) Act, 1907; and on whom devolves the duty of seeing that this provision of the Act is complied with?
I will answer these two questions together. There are 12 underwriters who have made the required deposit in compliance with the Employers Liability Insurance Companies Act, 1907, and so far as the Committee of Lloyds can ascertain no underwriters who have not complied with the Act are issuing policies thereunder. If any instance of non-compliance by an underwriter with the schedule referred to is brought to the notice of the Board of Trade they will consider the propriety of taking action under Section 18 of the Life Assurance Companies Act, 1870, as adapted to Employers Liability Insurance Companies by the Order in Council of 2nd November, 1907.
Is there any official of the Board of Trade responsible for seeing that the provisions of the Act requiring underwriters to deposit £2,000 are complied with?
My impression is that there is not.
asked the President of the Board of Trade in what number of cases, if any, underwriters have, in compliance with Section 2 of the Schedule to the Employers Liability (Insurance Companies) Act, 1907, paid money into court in redemption of the sum payable to a workman who is injured; and on whom devolves the duty of seeing that this provision of the Act is complied with?
I am not at present in a position to supply the information asked for by the hon. Member, as the statements with regard to the extent and character of the employers liability business carried on by the underwriters during the past year have not yet been deposited with the Board.
Quarries Closed (United Kingdom)
asked how many quarries are now closed in the United Kingdom; and how many men would be, in normal times, employed in those quarries?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The information cannot really be given because the process of closing exhausted quarries and opening new ones is always going on. Such particulars as are available were given by me in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth on 1st March, to which I beg to refer the hon. Member.
Castleblayney and Armagh Railway
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the construction of the section of the Castleblayney, Keady, and Armagh Railway between the two first-mentioned towns is proceeding so slowly that it is estimated by experts on the spot that the work will not be completed for five years yet; whether he is aware that the delay is the occasion of inconvenience and loss to-farmers and others living along the route of the projected line; whether he is aware that the portion of the railway between Keady and Armagh is already completed and being used for purposes of traffic; and whether he will bring such pressure to bear on the company as to insure that the part of the line still in process of construction will be finished within a reasonable time?
The Board of Trade are in communication with the railway company on this subject, and will inform the hon. Member of their reply.
Old Age Pensions (Cancelled)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether any old age pensions granted on the recommendation of pension officers have since been cancelled; and, if so, how many?
A certain number of cases in which pensions granted on the recommendation of the pension officer have been cancelled either upon a question raised under Section 7 of the Act and Regulation 17, or upon the conviction of the pensioner under Section 9 of the Act have been brought to my notice, but I have no statistics as to the number of cases in which such cancellation has taken place.
Lord Macdonnell's Pension
asked what was Lord Macdonnell's salary as Under-Secretary for Ireland; is the rule of the Civil Service Commissioners to calculate the pension of a servant by one-fortieth of the retiring salary for every year of service; if so, how many years were added to Lord Macdonnell's service in Ireland to entitle him to- the pension which he now receives; and why was the pension made greater than what he was entitled to?
The pensionable emoluments of Lord Macdonnell as Under-Secretary for Ireland were £2,333 6s. 8d. per annum. He has received the pension to which he is legally entitled, viz., fifteen-sixtieths of this amount, based on five years' service and ten years' professional addition, as explained in my answer to the hon. Member for Wicklow, East, of the 25th ultimo.
Is it not a fact that other Under-Secretaries have received only £2,000 a year?
This is a question of -what his pensionable emoluments were.
I understood the non. Gentleman to say that this pension was based upon £2,300. Is it not a fact that the ordinary pension of other Under-Secretaries was only £2,000?
I do not think so.
Why did Lord Macdonnell get less than other Under-Secretaries?
We wanted to save.
Can we see the correspondence?
I have no correspondence to publish.
Was this payment made for extra services rendered to the Nationalist party?
Old Age Pension Act (Roscommon)
Is the Secretary to the Treasury aware that no advance has been made to any of the pension sub-committees in the county Roscommon to cover working expenses under the provisions of the Pensions Act, though the accounts for the quarter ended December have been forwarded to the Treasury long since; and whether he will give instructions to have these expenses paid at as early a date as possible?
I regret the delay which has taken place in the payment of these accounts. They are, however, now being examined, and if they are found to be in order they will be paid within the next few days.
Postmistress, Laytown, County Heath
I wish to ask the Postmaster-General if Mrs. Mary Anne Cassery, the postmistress at Laytown, county Meath, is the wife of Sergeant Cassery, a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary, stationed at Raheny, county Dublin; if so, will he state how long she occupied the position; and whether her occupation of the position is in accordance with the rules of the Department.
Mrs. Cassery is the wife of Sergeant Cassery, a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary, stationed at Raheny. She was thought to be the best candidate, and was appointed sub-postmistress of Laytown in March, 1908. The wife of a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary is not regarded as ineligible for the position of sub-postmistress when, as in the present case, her husband is stationed in a different district from that in which her office is situated.
Mail Service (London and Zanzibar)
Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether his negotiations with the British India Steam Navigation Company will provide for a direct service between London and Zanzibar, or if there will be, as at present, a break at Aden and transhipment of mails, passengers, and cargo; in the latter event, if he will state what advantage is sought to be gained to this country or to East Africa from such a service; and if he will state what sum would have been paid to the German and French steamship companies if the letters and parcels carried during the last year had been carried by them instead of by the British India Company?
The arrangements with the British India Steam Navigation Company are not for a direct service between London and Zanzibar, but for the continuance of a service between Aden and Zanzibar on the same lines as hitherto, but with an improved time-table. The advantage to this country and to East Africa is the maintenance of a regular British service between Aden and Zanzibar in connection with the British packets on the Indian mail service which call at Aden. The arrangement will also provide for the free conveyance of Government officers when travelling on Government service. It is estimated that a sum of about £l,650 would have been earned by the foreign services if the mails (including parcel mails) conveyed during last year by the British India Steam Navigation Company under the arrangement in question had been conveyed by the foreign services.
Is it not a fact that the Post Office lose a large sum of money every year upon this contract?
I do not think so. The contract has been very carefully considered, and we think the arrangement is very fair and satisfactory.
Is it not a fact that you are paying £9,000 for a service worth £1,650?
Carrickerry Post Office
I beg to ask the Postmaster-General if he can say whether he received a memorial from the residents of Carrickerry, Glensharrold, Knockfinisk, and outlying districts, comprising the sub-postal district of Carrickerry, as to the necessity for a sub-post office there: is he aware that the population of these districts is about 2,000, and that the nearest sub-offices are four and six miles distant, and that at the present time inconvenience is caused to the old age pensioners who have to go to these places to receive their pensions; is he aware that letters remain in the nearest sub-office from Saturday to Tuesday before being delivered; and whether, under these circum-stances, and also owing to the necessity for a sub-office there to register letters, he will grant the petitioners their request?
I have not yet received the memorial, but I am having inquiry made, and I will communicate the result to my hon. Friend.
Old Age Pension Application (Mrs. Paterson, Inverness)
asked the Lord Advocate if his attention has been drawn to the case of Mrs. Mary Paterson, or Grant, in the parish of Duthil, in Inverness-shire, who is over 70 years of age, and has been refused a pension because her husband has been in receipt of 3s. 6d. per week of parish relief entirely applied for his own maintenance, although her name has never appeared on the roll nor has she received any parish relief; and will he ask the Local Government Board to reconsider the decision at which they have arrived?
As Mrs. Grant, on her own admission, had no income of her own, the Local Government Board had no alternative but to hold that she participated in the relief granted to her husband. The fact that her name was not on the poor-roll has no significance, as where an application is made by the head of a family and relief granted, he is entered as the pauper and it is not the practice to enter in the roll the names of his dependants. I beg, further, to remind the hon. Member that, as stated in my answer yesterday to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire, it is not competent for the Local Government Board to reconsider its own decisions.
Is it not the case that the decision of the Local Government Board is exactly contrary to the decision of the committee?
I do not think so. I will keep the point in mind.
Why is it impossible for them to reconsider their decision? Are they always right?
Their decisions are final and are not subject to review.
Uddingston Murder Witness
Is the Lord Advocate aware that at the recent High Court held in Glasgow respectable witnesses cited by the Crown in connection with the Uddingston murder case were kept in a locked room from 10 a.m. till 7 p.m. without food or any arrangement for procuring the same; and whether, in consideration of the indignation created by this treatment, he will take steps to prevent such incidents in the future?
The witnesses in this case, according to the usual practice, were kept under supervision, but were not locked up. In Glasgow no refreshments for witnesses in criminal cases are supplied at the expense of the Crown, but an attendant is always at hand, whose duty it is to procure food for any witness desiring to purchase it. I have ascertained that on the occasion in question such an attendant was present, and no complaint was made to the constables in charge of the witnesses as to anyone not being allowed to purchase food. I undertake, however, to make further inquiries into the matter with a view to considering whether any change in the practice is expedient.
Scottish Education Fund (Allocation of Balance)
Can the Lord Advocate state when the revised scheme of allocation of the balance of the Scottish Education Fund will be published; and whether there will be an opportunity given for discussing it?
The Department hope to be in a position to lay the Minute providing for the allocation of the balance of the Education (Scotland) Fund under Section 16 (2) of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, on the Table of the House early in May. Then will be the time to make any request for any special opportunities for discussion which may be desired.
Old Age Pension Application (Mrs. Galyani, Higher Openshaw)
I wish to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he can state the grounds upon which the appeal for an old age pension of Mrs. Louisa Galyani, 72 years of age, residing at 3, Meadow Street, Higher Openshaw, Manchester, and born in that city, has been refused?
The case has been investigated, and it has been found that the claimant is not a British subject, being the wife of an alien. In these circumstances, she is not qualified for a pension.
May I ask if in law a British subject who marries an alien loses his British domicile or nationality?
If an Englishwoman marries an alien, yes. There must be some sacrifice.
This woman never left the country.
Importation of Diseased Foreign Meat
asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to a Report presented on the 4th inst. to the Court of Common Council by the Medical Officer of Health for the Port of London on the subject of the continued importation of diseased foreign meat, wherein it was stated that on the 2nd ult. a vessel arrived from the United States with a large consignment of boxed meat, such boxes bearing an official label indicating that they had been inspected and passed by the American authorities as being in sound condition, but of which a large proportion upon inspection proved to be unfit for human consumption; whether he could state or would ascertain and communicate the name of the American firm exporting such diseased meat; and whether it is intended to make representation to the United States Government upon the subject?
I have received a copy of the Report referred to. It does not mention the name of the firm of exporters, and I do not at present think it necessary to ascertain what it is. I am giving attention to the case, and I shall consider the question of formal representation to the Government of the United States on receipt of some further particulars which have been asked for. I may add that I understand that the representative in this country of the United States Department of Agriculture, which is responsible for meat certification and inspection, is already investigating the matter under instructions from that Department.
Hindu Diet in British Prisons
I desire to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether caste Hindu diet is provided in gaols in Great Britain for Hindu prisoners; and, if the answer be in the affirmative, on what grounds it is held that persons born Hindus but resident in Great Britain prior to their incarceration continue to have any claim to be treated as caste Hindus?
When any prisoner professes to consider the prison dietary incompatible with his religious belief, arrangements are made, under the supervision of the medical officer, to provide appropriate diet.
Dressed Canvas Contracts
Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether certain contracts for the supply of dressed canvas have recently been placed abroad; if so, to what amount and in what countries; whether the fair wage standard is applied in such countries; and what hours of work and rate of wages are usual and current in such countries among workmen of the class employed?
The only contract for dressed canvas entered into by any department under my control was for 28,700 yards, value £3,115 6s. 3d., and was placed with a British firm.
Quarries Closed in the United Kingdom
asked the Home Secretary how many of the 420 quarries closed in the United Kingdom since 1906 are in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland respectively?
The 420 quarries closed since 1905 (not 1906, as stated in the question) were distributed as follows:—
How many of these quarries were worked out before they were closed?
I do not know. No doubt, several of them.
asked how many of the 7,010 workmen thrown out of employment owing to the closing of quarries in the United Kingdom since 1906 were in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland respectively?
The decrease in the number of persons employed in quarries between 1905 and 1907 was distributed as follows:—
The great majority of the men who have ceased to be employed were engaged in sandstone, limestone, or slate quarries.
Half-Timers (Departmental Committee)
asked how many witnesses have been examined by the Interdepartmental Committee on half-timers; what proportion of such witnesses represent purely rural districts; and when the Report may be expected?
Forty-nine witnesses have appeared before the Committee, of whom eleven may be said to represent purely rural districts. I cannot say when the Report will be issued, as the Committee have not yet completed the taking of evidence.
Small Holdings Act, 1907 (New Dwelling Houses)
asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he can state how many new dwelling-houses have been applied for under The Small Holdings Act, 1907; and how many have been provided by the local authorities?
The information for which the hon. Member asks is not yet available, but it is being obtained, and will be published in the annual Report of the proceedings under the Act.
Is the information unusually late, or is there some difficulty in getting it? The hon. Gentleman was able last year to give me an answer to a similar question.
I cannot remember the question put to me a year ago. But I think the hon. Member is under a misapprehension in the matter.
New Post Office, City of London (Ferroconcrete)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that in the new Post Office buildings in the City being built in ferro-concrete by Hollo-way Brothers only one coat of Portland cement facing is being applied; whether he is satisfied that this is sufficient to finish the exterior rough surfaces of the ferro-concrete, especially in running mouldings, as it is not recognised by architects and the plastering trade, two coats always having been considered the minimum; and also whether one coat is in the specification of the architect to the new Post Office buildings.
The work is being done in accordance with the specification, and is considered by my architects to be the most satisfactory treatment on concrete.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that owing to the way this work has been done it is impossible to do satisfactory work under the conditions? Men are being sacked by Messrs. Holloway Bros, wholesale.
That is not my information.
Will the right hon. Gentleman receive a deputation of the men on the subject?
I have received deputations previously. I shall be glad to receive any information that the hon. Member, or any other hon. Members, may give me in writing.
Raisuli and Kaid Maclean (Ransom)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will earmark for the relief of the unemployed the £15,000 which it is reported Raisuli will restore to the British Government out of the £20,000 he received as ransom for Kaid Maclean?
I regret that I am unable to give any undertaking on this subject.
Foreign Income Tax Payers
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the advisability of rendering irrecoverable any amounts of income tax deducted by an agent resident in this country from dividends payable to a foreigner resident abroad?
also asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the advisability of discontinuing the grant of rebates on income tax to foreign investors in British securities whose incomes, from British sources alone, do not exceed the prescribed limits?
I will give due consideration to these, as to other, suggestions which reach me for raising the revenue required for the public service in the coming financial year.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether foreign shareholders in British companies whose operations are conducted abroad and whose register of shareholders is not kept in this country are assessed for income tax on the amount of their dividends?
The shareholders of a British company are not individually assessed to income tax in respect of their dividends. The hon. Member is no doubt aware that the question of the "residence" of a company for the purpose of the Income Tax Acts has frequently been before the Courts, who have decided that where a business is controlled and directed from this country it is chargeable, even if the physical operations are carried on abroad. It is therefore difficult for me, without risk of misinterpretation, to answer a question on the subject couched in general terms.
May I ask if the information given applies only to companies' registers of shareholders that are kept abroad, or to the register kept in this country as well?
The hon. Member knows very well that there is so much litigation that I would rather not answer the question. If he will put it down I will consider it.
X-rays Research (Dermatitis)
asked the Prime Minister whether in view of the services rendered by Mr. H. W. Cox in connection with X-rays research, who has fallen a victim to the disease known as dermatitis, involving a second and serious operation, it is intended to recognise that Gentleman's services to science either by the granting of a civil pension or in some other manner?
The case of Mr. Cox has been brought to my notice, and is receiving consideration.
Staines, Death of a Boy
asked the Prime Minister, whether, in view of the result of the inquiry into the death of a boy at Staines on 13th February, the Government will consider further legislation for the protection of the public.
I understand that the coroner's jury in this case returned a verdict of accidental death, and exonerated the driver from blame. With regard to further legislation, I do not think that I can add anything to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board in answer to a question of my hon. Friend the Member for the Reigate Division of Surrey on Wednesday last.
East African Protectorate (Grants-in-Aid)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, with a view to securing reductions of the grants in aid to the East Africa Protectorate, he will take into consideration proposals by which the said grants in aid might be reduced by two-thirds and at the same time money provided for the development of the country without any further liability to the British taxpayer?
I am not aware of the nature of the proposals referred to; but if my hon. Friend can persuade the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who administers the Protectorate, that they are feasible as well as financially sound and will effect the desirable object in view, I shall be very glad to consider them.
Agriculturists and Taxation
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will explain upon what principle a farmer possessing sufficient capital to farm 350 acres of land at a rental of 25s. an acre escapes payment of income tax, while a tradesman with an income of only £200 a year is com- pelled to contribute through the income tax to the cost of the government of his country?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask whether he considers the present method of assessing farmers for income tax is not an acknowledgment of the fact that agriculture as an industry is overburdened, both for local and for national purposes; whether, therefore, in considering a possible modification he will see that he does not lose sight of the Imperial and local taxation borne by this industry?
also put a second question, asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that, owing to the methodical under-assessment of farmers' incomes by the arbitrary assumption that farmers' profits amount to one-third of their rentals, the great majority of British farmers do not pay income tax; whether no farmer pays income tax unless he pays a rent of over £480 a year; whether, owing to the combination of the assessment of farmers' profits with the abatement system, a large farmer paying a rental of £600 a year only pays an income tax of 30s. per annum; and whether seeing that this methodical under-assessment of farmers' profits means that other income tax payers are over-taxed pro tanto he will undertake to abolish Schedule B of the income tax, and, by bringing farmers' profits into line with those of other traders under Schedule D, remedy the inequality referred to?
I will answer my two hon. Friends together, and the two questions of the hon. Member for North Paddington together. I am aware of the facts relating to the assessment of farmers under Statute. My hon. Friend will not expect me to indicate, before the Budget is introduced, any decision with regard to what provisions may or may not be included in the Finance Bill.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state how many farmers paid income tax in the United Kingdom in the financial year 1907–8?
The information is not available. The statistics of the assessments under Schedule B do not distinguish between farmers and other persons chargeable under that schedule.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the number of persons, farmers or otherwise, who were assessed under that schedule?
That is not the question on the paper, but I will see if I can answer it if my hon. Friend puts it on the Paper.
Persons Boycotted (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will furnish a statement, in the same form as that supplied by him on 28th October last, showing the number of persons returned as boycotted since 31st December, 1905, who were, in addition, the victims of overt outrage, and indicating the acts of outrage committed in each case without specifying the names of the individuals attacked?
If the hon. Member wishes to move for a Return, I will consider whether it can be given.
Firearms and Indictable Crimes (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will furnish a statement classifying under their proper designations the indictable crimes in which firearms were used in 1906, 1907, and 1908 respectively, distinguishing between agrarian and non-agrarian crimes of this character?
I will publish with tonight's Votes the statement which the hon. Member asks for.
Gun Licences (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if his attention has been drawn to the fact that the number of gun licences issued throughout Ireland in the year 1906–7 was 19,159, and that, while the average annual increase in the number of such licences issued since 1897–8 was 563, the number issued in 1907–8 was 19,690, an increase of only 431 on the previous year; if his attention has also been drawn to the fact that the number of game licences granted in 1907–8, namely, 4,424, was smaller than in any of the previous 10 years; has he any reason to believe that the number of licences issued in 1907–8 is commensurate with the increased traffic in firearms on which licence duties are payable since the repeal of the Arms Act in December, 1906; and, if not, what steps does he propose to take for the protection of the Revenue?
The figures given in the question appear to be correctly quoted from the Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, save that the increase of gun licences in 1907–8 was 531, not 431. It appears from that Report that the diminution in game licences is not peculiar to Ireland. I have no means of making the comparison suggested by the hon. Member. The protection of the Revenue is a matter which primarily concerns my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the police have strict instructions to report to the Inland Revenue authorities any breaches of the Gun Licence Act which they may detect.
Lansdowne Estate, County Kerry
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state the cause of delay in reinstating the three evicted tenants on the Lansdowne estate, near Kenmare, county Kerry, whose cases have been already investigated and reported on to the Estates Commissioners?
The Estates Commissioners inform me that one of the evicted tenants on this estate has been reinstated, and that three others have been noted as suitable to be provided for on untenanted land when acquired.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that a number of tenants on the Lansdowne estate, near Kenmare, have served notices to fix a fair rent; and can he state when the next sitting of the Land Sub-Commission will be held in Kenmare?
The Land Commission inform me that the next sitting of the Sub-Commission to hear fair rent applications from the Kenmare district begins on the 26th of this month. There are 23 cases on the Lansdowne estate for hearing.
Will all the cases that are listed be tried?
I cannot answer that.
Illegal Trawling, Ballinskelligs Bay
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that a trawler has recently been captured when tiawling over nine transatlantic cables in Ballinskelligs Bay, county Kerry, and that at least one of the cables was broken and diagged from its berth on this occasion; and whether, in view of the inquiry which was made into this question last year, he proposes to introduce legislation making it illegal to trawl over cables?
I will answer this question. A trawler was recently found trawling in prohibited waters in Ballinskelligs Bay, but the cable companies concerned inform me that, so far as they are aware, no cable has recently been injured by this or any other trawler in that locality. As regard the question of introducing legislation to make it illegal to. trawl over cables, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a question which he addressed to me on the subject on 17th December last.
Old Age Pensions (Medical Relief, Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the Registration (Ireland) Act specifically provides that poor law medical relief shall not disqualify for the parliamentary franchise, and that the courts in Ireland have held (M'Creery v. Hanrahan, No. 16, 1887) that relief given in a union hospital is medical or surgical assistance within the meaning of that Act; whether he is aware that, so far as Ireland is concerned, it is therefore illegal, under Section 3 (1) (a) of the Old Age Pensions Act, to refuse the old age pension on the ground of such relief; and what steps he proposes to take?
The case of M'Creery v. Hanrahan received the attention of the Local Government Board at the very commencement of their work in connection with the Old Age Pension Act, and they have not regarded a person- as disqualified for a pension where the circumstances are similar.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the circulars issued by the Local Government Board of Ireland to decide the lines on which pension officers are to act are in direct conflict with the decision quoted? Will he cause this matter to be brought under the consideration of the Local Government Board, so that the Act may be administered according to Irish law?
The Local Government Board are under the impression, at all events, that they are closely following the ruling given. But I will call attention to-the matter.
Police Protection (Mrs. Ryan, Craughwell)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what personal protection was afforded to Mrs. Ryan, of Craughwell, prior to 22nd January, when Constable Goldrick was murdered; whether such-protection was continued to her down to-that date; if not, what relaxations were made in this respect; and under what circumstances was the personal protection relaxed or withdrawn?
The Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary informs me that from 1st September, 1907, up to 22nd January last, Mrs. Ryan was protected by patrols at night. No patrols were necessary in the daytime, as her house is opposite to the Craughwell Police Barracks and within 20 yards of it. The protection was never relaxed or withdrawn.
Constable Goldrick (Compassionate Allowance.)
asked the Chief Secretary whether he was now in a position to announce the amount of the compassionate allowance to be paid to the parents of the late Constable Goldrick; and could he state that in the determination of the amount regard will not be had to the sum voluntarily subscribed by the public?
I am not yet in a position to make any statement on the subject.
Evicted Tenants
asked the Chief Secretary if he could say how many inspectors there are appointed under The Land Act, 1903, to deal exclusively with the cases of the evicted tenants; whether these appointments are temporary or permanent; and whether they are paid a fixed salary yearly or so much a day for the work done by them?
The Estates Commissioners inform me that 11 of their inspectors are employed exclusively on work in connection with evicted tenants. The appointments of these inspectors are temporary. They are paid fixed annual salaries.
Blossom Hill Eviction
asked the Chief Secretary if he can say whether a grant has yet been given to James Riordan, of Blossom Hill, Rathkeale, in the county of Limerick, to help him to repair his house and stock his small holding from which he was evicted and on which he has been reinstated; is he aware that two inspectors of the Estates Commissioners have had interviews with him in reference to this grant; if he has not obtained it, can he say how many more inspectors will visit this holding, and what number of times before he gets it?
The Estates Commissioners cannot say whether they will sanction any grant in this case until they have completed their inquiries.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say how many inspectors there will be before they complete their inquiries?
The Estates Commissioners are doing their best.
Evictions in County Leitrim
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state how many evicted tenants have been reinstated in county Leitrim under The Land Act of 1903; and how many have been reinstated under the Evicted Tenants Act of 1907?
The Estates Commissioners inform me that in county Leitrim since the passing of the Act of 1903 81 evicted tenants or their representatives have been reinstated or provided with new holdings under the Act. Proceedings are pending under the Evicted Tenants Act for the acquisition of other lands to be utilised for the same purpose.
Land Purchase, County Leitrim
asked the Chief Secretary if he can state how many estates have been sold in county Leitrim since the passing of the Act of 1903; what has been the purchase money for the same; how many of those estates have been vested in the tenants;. and what is the amount of purchase money advanced?
Since the passing of the Act of 1903 proceedings have been instituted before the Estates Commissioners for the sale of 172 estates in the county Leitrim, representing a purchase money of £899,263. Of this sum £68,578 has been advanced in respect of 25 estates, and the holdings on these estates have been vested in the tenants.
Reinstatement of Evicted Tenants, County Limerick
asked the Chief Secretary if he can say what is the number of evicted tenants in the county of Limerick reinstated or provided for with equivalent holdings by the Estates Commissioners under the Land Act, 1903; how many evicted tenants in the said county have been reinstated by the landlords since the passing of the said Act; and how many in the county are still unprovided for?
The Estates Commissioners inform me that in county Limerick 26 evicted tenants or their representatives have been reinstated on lands purchased by the Commissioners, and that 98 have been reinstated by landlords, making in all 124. Of these 98, 47 were reinstated at the instigation of the Commissioners, and at prices estimated by them. The Commissioners have noted as suitable 80 other evicted tenants, and proceedings are pending for the purchase of untenanted land, on which it is proposed to provide for them.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that satisfactory progress having regard to the fact that the Act has been in operation five years?
We have to be satisfied with what we can get.
Prison Officers (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary whether any restrictions are placed on prison officers in Ireland who have signed petitions or who join trade organisations for the defence and promotion of their interests in the public service; and, if so, will he take steps for the removal of these restrictions, so that prison officers in that country may enjoy similar constitutional privileges in placing their grievances before Parliament as are allowed to prison officers in England, Scotland, and Wales?
The rule governing this matter is the same in Ireland as in England. Prison officers are not permitted in either country to forward petitions, except through the proper official channel, namely, the Governor of the prison. There has never been any question of prison officers in Ireland joining trade organisations for the defence and promotion of their interests in the public service.
Is there any regulation prohibiting prison officials from joining trade unions?
I do not know; I cannot answer that question. I do not think prison officials have expressed any desire to belong to them.
Assize Judges (State of Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the remarks of Lord Justice Holmes, as Commissioner of Assize, in opening the assizes in the county of West- meath, on Monday, 1st March, and especially to the statement of the Lord Justice,, who has a judicial experience of 22 years, that although he had been furnished with, carefully prepared police reports, he thought that a stranger like himself, who was only in the county for a few hours-on his circuit as an assize judge, was not in a position to form or express an opinion on the state of the county; and whether the Government will consider the advisability in future of discontinuing the practice of furnishing commissioners of assize with police reports of the state of the various districts in their circuit which come within the purview of the executive and whose consideration is outside the-sphere of judicial duties?
My attention has been called to the observations of Lord Justice Holmes to the effect indicated in the question. As regards the practice of furnishing returns of crime to judges of assize, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to a question on the same subject asked by the hon. Member for West Belfast on 3rd February, 1908.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this practice does not exist in England? Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that the extra-judicial observations of judges regularly cited in this House are based on insufficient information?
I have again and again given answers to questions showing that the judges, whether in England or Ireland, have a right to demand of the police officers information as to the state of the districts. For a long time this information has been furnished to the judges on assizes. No opinion is expressed by the police; simply answers are given to formal questions supposed to be put by the judges of assizes. I think it is a perfectly satisfactory arrangement.
As an English barrister, does the right hon. Gentleman know that it is an offence at common law to publish false news, and that an offender could easily be prosecuted?
The prisons would be full.
Commissioners of Assize, Ireland (Light Calendars)
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the six counties-in which the assizes were opened on Thursday last the commissioners of assize had little, if any, criminal cases for trial; that in the county of Monaghan there was no criminal case, in Waterford city and in Waterford county respectively there was only one bill to go before the grand juries, while in Longford there were but two and in Leitrim but four bills to go before the grand juries, while at Cavan the criminal business was light, the cases being very trivial; and whether the Government intend to take any and, if so, what steps to prevent the dissemination in Great Britain of accounts of crime in Ireland for which there is no foundation, and to secure the punishment of those persons responsible for their circulation.
The facts are as stated in the first part of the question. I am not aware of any means at the disposal of the Government for punishing persons who publish false or exaggerated accounts of crime.
Pott's Estate, County Roscommon
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that seizures and distraints have been recently made by the sheriff of Roscommon for rent on the Potts estate, in the parish of Moore, county Roscommon, and in connection with these that a large force of police has been engaged; and whether, in view of the fact that an offer made by the landlord's agent to leave the dispute on this estate to the arbitration of the Archbishop of Tuam has been accepted on behalf of the tenants, and that Mr. Potts is the only landlord in that part of the country who has not sold to the tenants, he will refuse police assistance to the landlord in making seizures pending the result of the arbitration?
I am aware that seizures were recently made on this estate by the sheriff protected by a force of police. The constabulary authorities inform me that the negotiations between the landlord and tenants had fallen through prior to the seizures, and that Mr. Potts is not the only landlord in the locality who has not sold to his tenants. I have no power to refuse protection to the sheriff.
Mr. Kyle's Estate, Moore, County Roscommon
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the estate of Mr. Kyle, in the parish of Moore, in the county Roscommon, has been sold to the tenants through the Estates Commissioners on the understanding that the grass lands on the estate would be divided amongst the smaller tenants; and whether he will see that the farm known as the Creggan farm, now in the possession of Mr. Potts, a landlord who has over 2,000 acres of grass lands in possession, will be secured for them?
No agreements have yet been lodged with the Estates Commissioners for the sale of the Kyle estate, nor have any proceedings been instituted with regard to the Potts estate.
Shirley Estate, Carrickmacross
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed at a recent meeting of the Carrickmacross Rural District Council, in which complaint is made of the great delay on the part of the Estates Commissioners in fixing the purchase moneys of a number of the tenants on the Shirley estate, including those in the electoral divisions of Drumgurra and Rafeeragh, in consequence of which delay these tenants are obliged to pay their former high rents, whilst their nighbours have been enjoying the benefits of purchase since 1st November, 1906; and whether, seeing that the inspectors have completed their inspection since August last, he will request the Commissioners to complete the transaction without further delay?
The resolution has been received by the Estates Commissioners, who inform me that they are dealing with the estate as rapidly as possible.
Army Expenditure I Saving)
asked the Secretary of State for War if £15,000,000 has been saved in armaments in the last three years; and, if so, what proportion of the saving has been effected in his Department, and under what heads?
It is understood that the hon. Member derives his figure of £15,000,000 from the gross total of Army and Navy expenditure in 1906–7 and 1907–8, as compared with that in 1904–5 and 1905–6, given in reply to a question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury on 28th February, 1908. Of that £15,000,000 about £6,400,000 arises on the Army, and is due mainly to the reduction of building expenditure under the Military Works Loan and the reduction of Army establishments.
Wages at Woolwich Arsenal
asked the Secretary of State for War if he can state what changes in rates of wages and conditions of employment of the workmen in the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, are in contemplation for the coming financial year?
Men belonging to the engineering trades affiliated to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers at present rated at 37s. 6d. are to be re-rated as from 1st April, 1909, at 38s. 6d., on the understanding that if the current rate in the London district is reduced in the future, the rate of 38s. 6d. may also be reduced.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is a matter of four or five years since the other members working in the same district were raised in proportion to the rise in price, and that when a reduction has to take place, if it does take place, he will understand that point?
No doubt we shall take into account the current rate in the London district.
If the reduction does happen to take place, will the Secretary for War give the men their back money?
I can assure the hon. Gentleman we shall not.
Territorial Army (Enlistment)
asked the Secretary for War whether he is aware that many employers who would be glad to encourage the enlistment of their employes in the Territorial Army have abstained from granting leave to attend the annual camp because they cannot, without serious inconvenience to their business, allow any large proportion of their employes to be absent at one time; and whether he will consider the possibility of having two camps annually, and thereby obtain, without great inconvenience to employers, a considerable reinforcement of the Territorial Army by men who are anxious to join?
This matter has been under consideration, and General Officers Commanding are endeavouring to make arrangements to meet the difficulty. In the London district a provisional battalion is to be formed composed of men who cannot train at the same time as the rest of the unit to which they belong.
Captain Bryce Wilson
asked the Secretary for War whether he can state how many adverse confidential reports were made upon Captain Bryce Wilson, late of the 5th Royal Irish Lancers, other than the one made by General French; by whom were they made, and were they shown to Captain Wilson; whether at the time General French made the adverse confidential report referred to, and which, although acted upon, was not shown to Captain Wilson, the latter had been serving under General Sir Leslie Rundle in the Northern Command for 15 months; and whether General Sir Leslie Rundle was alone entitled to report upon him?
Two adverse confidential reports were made upon this officer, one by Major-General Lord William Seymour in June, 1892, at which time the regulations did not direct that adverse reports should be communicated to officers, and one by the officer commanding the 5th Lancers and by the General Officer Commanding the 1st Cavalry Brigade in July, 1906, which was duly communicated to the officer. As regards the third part of the question the reply is in the affirmative, and as regards the last part of the question the reply is in the negative.
Tipperary Assizes
I do not see the Attorney-General for Ireland in his place, and I wished to put him a question of which I had given him private notice. I will put it to the Chief Secretary.
I have had no notice.
The question of which I gave private notice to the Attorney-General—
He is in Ireland.
The question is whether it is a fact that the case of Mr. Murphy, of Clonmel, and eleven others, charged with conspiracy, was adjourned on the application of the Crown at the Assizes on Monday, and what is the ground of the application, and how does he reconcile the application with the alleged necessity to arrest the accused in order to secure that they should be tried at the North Tipperary Assizes?
Is it a fact that the Attorney-General applied to have the venue changed on the ground that he could not get a fair, impartial trial amongst the jurors of Tipperary, who are members of the United Irish League?
I have no knowledge of the matter, neither of the application nor on what grounds it was made.
Infantry Equipment
I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will arrange for Members to have the opportunity of inspecting the new infantry-equipment which is introduced, and of comparing it with the old?
Yes. If it is agreeable to the House I would suggest this should be done to-morrow afternoon. Two Guardsmen will attend in the room near the cloak room, which is sometimes called the Oratory and sometimes the Cromwell Room, between 2.30 o'clock and 5. One will have the new equipment and the other the old.
Will there be a charge for admission to see them?
Could he not arrange for a larger room, as many hon. Members wish to see it?
If they file in between 2.30 o'clock and 5 they can do so.
Is this the first, time in the long Parliamentary experience of the right hon. Gentleman that he is aware of the House of Commons being turned into a showroom?
Course of Business
I wish to ask the Prime Minister two questions. The first relates to the Votes he proposes to take after eleven o'clock; the other relates to a matter which I think I must bring before him, though I do not know that he is primarily responsible. It relates to the Vote on Account to-morrow, and as the right hon. Gentleman is well aware, under our Standing Order only one day is given to the Vote on Account. It is desirable that the House should have a night for discussing the Vote on Account, which is a curtailment of the old privileges of the House, though perhaps a very necessary one. I understand a very controversial and important private Bill is down for a quarter past eight, and which will seriously interfere with the amount of time given to hon. Gentlemen who desire to discuss matters of public interest on the Vote on Account. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can do anything to remedy the difficulty. I think it is important.
In regard to the first question, we propose, if we are not fortunate enough to dispose of them before a quarter past eight, not to take after eleven o'clock the Board of Agriculture Vote. We shall take the other Votes and the Report of the Unemployed and the third reading of the Consolidated Bill. With regard to to-morrow, the right hon. Gentleman knows the Government are not responsible for putting down a private Bill, and I should be very glad if the full time should be occupied with the discussion on the Vote on Account. I am told that his apprehensions are not likely to be realised—at any rate, to the extent which he imagines, and the discussion will probably be of a limited character. The difficulty is that if those who are responsible for the allocation of to-morrow night of this Bill take it off to-morrow night they will probably have to put it on some night next week when the Navy Vote will be taken, and I think that will be still more undesirable. I can only express the hope that the discussion will be limited in time.
The Navy Vote is proposed to be taken next week, and I understand the Estimates will not be in our hands before Friday or Saturday.
Friday.
I should hope the Government will give us some time to consider them and will not take them on Monday. If they were not taken on Monday, I should think that the private Bill could be put down for that day.
We shall not take the Navy Vote on Monday.
When do you propose to take the Vote for Somaliland?
On Monday.
Notices of Motion
gave notice that on this day fortnight he will call attention to the question of Intermediate Education in Ireland and move a Resolution.
gave notice that on this day fortnight he will direct attention to the income tax and move a Resolution.
gave notice that on this day fortnight he will call attention to the administration of the British railways and the conditions of the employed working therein and move a Resolution.
Presentation of Bills
The following Bills were presented, and read a first time:—
Mr. Findlay—Bill to amend the Law relating to Feus and Leases for Buildings in Scotland. (To be read a second time 15th March.)
Mr. Hedges—Bill to amend the law relating to the Qualification and Registration of Voters, and for other purposes relating to Elections. (To be read a second time 19th March.)
MR. KILBRIDE—Bill to provide for the further prevention of the fraudulent sale of Margarine. (To be read a second time 18th March.)
Division No. 30.] AYES. [3.50 p.m. Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Acland, Francis Dyke Delany, William Hudson, Walter Agnew, George William Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Hutton, Alfred Eddison Alden, Percy Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Hyde, Clarendon G. Allen. Charles P. (Stroud) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Illingworth, Percy H. Ashton, Thomas Gair Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jardine, Sir. J. Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Dillon, John Jenkins, J. Atherley-Jones, L. Donelan, Captain A. Johnson, John (Gateshead) Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Barnard, E. B. Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Barnes. G. N. Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Kekewich, Sir George Barran, Rowland Hirst Erskine, David C. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Esmonde, Sir Thomas King. Alfred John (Knutsford) Beale, W. P. Everett, R. Lacey Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras. E.) Beauchamp, E. Faber, G. H. (Boston) Lehmann, R. C. Bellairs, Carlyon Fenwick, Charles Lever, W. H. (Cheshire, Wirral) Bertram, Julius Ferens, T. R. Lewis, John Herbert Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Ferguson, R. C. Munro Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon) Findlay, Alexander Lupton, Arnold Boland. John Flynn, James Christopher Lyell, Charles Henry Boulton, A. C. F. Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Lynch, H. B. Bowerman, C. W. Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Bramsdon, T. A. Fuller, John Michael F. Mackarness, Frederic C. Branch. James Fullerton, Hugh Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Brigg, John Furness, Sir Christopher MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Bright. J. A. Gibb, James (Harrow) Macpherson, J. T. Brooke, Stopford Gill, A. H. MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal. E.) Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John M'Callum, John M. Brunner, Rt. Hn. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew. W.) M'Crae, Sir George Bryce, J. Annan Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford M'Kean, John Buchanan, Rt. Hon. Thomas R. Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Burke, E. Haviland- Grayson, Albert Victor M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Bnrnyeat, W. J. D. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) M'Micking. Major G. Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Gurdon, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Brampton Mallet, Charles E. Buxton. Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Meagher, Michael Byles, William Pollard Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hall, Frederick Menzies, Walter Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Halpin, J. Molteno, Percy Alport Channing, Sir Francis Allston Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Montagu, Hon. E. S. Cheetham, John Frederick Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Montgomery. H. G. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Cleland, J. W. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Morrell, Philip Clough, William Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.) Murphy, John (Kerry, East) Clynes, J. R. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard) Cobbold, Felix Thornley Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Myer, Horatio Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Haworth, Arthur A. Napier, T. B. Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.) Hayden, John Patrick Nicholls, George Condon, Thomas Joseph Hedges, A. Paget Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Cooper, G. J. Hemmerde, Edward George Nolan, Joseph Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Norman, Sir Henry Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Higham, John Sharp Norton, Capt. Cecil William Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Hobart, Sir Robert Nussey, Thomas Willans Cowan, W. H. Hobhouse, Charles E. H. O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) Crooks, William Hodge, John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Crossley, William J. Hogan, Michael O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Curran, Peter Francis Holland, Sir William Henry O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Dalziel, Sir James Henry Holt, Richard Durning Parker, James (Halifax) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) Partington, Oswald
Business of the House
Supply
, in accordance with notice, moved: "That the proceedings on the Business of Supply, if under discussion when the business is postponed this day, be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of business."
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 65.
Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Sears, J. E. Wadsworth, J. Pearce, William (Limehouse) Seely, Colonel Walsh, Stephen Perks, Sir Robert William Shackleton, David James Walters, John Tudor Pirie, Duncan V. Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Sheehy, David Wardle, George J. Power, Patrick Joseph Sherwell, Arthur James Waring, Walter Pullar, Sir Robert Silcock, Thomas Ball Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Radford, G. H. Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Whitbread, S. Howard Reddy, M. Soares, Ernest J. White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Redmond, William (Clare) Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Rees, J. D. Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) Whitehead, Rowland Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Steadman, W. C. Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Ridsdale, E. A. Strachey, Sir Edward Wiles, Thomas Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Wilkie, Alexander Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Summerbell, T. Williamson, A. Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wills, Arthur Walters Roe, Sir Thomas Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury) Wilson, Hon, G. G. (Hull, W.) Rogers, F. E. Newman Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) Rose, Charles Day Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Rowlands, J. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Tomkinson, James Wood, T. M'Kinnon Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Toulmin, George Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Trevelyan, Charles Philips TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and the Master of Elibank. Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Ure, Alexander Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Vivian, Henry NOES. Anstruther-Gray, Major Forster, Henry William Moore, William Arkwright, John Stanhope Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Morrison-Bell, Captain Balcarres, Lord Glover, Thomas Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.) Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) Randles, Sir John Scurrah Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Remnant, James Farquharson Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Harris, Frederick Leverton Renwick, George Beckett, Hon. Gervase Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Seddon, J. Bridgeman, W. Clive Hill, Sir Clement Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. Carlile, E. Hildred Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Sloan, Thomas Henry Castlereagh, Viscount Hunt, Rowland Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Joynson-Hicks, William Stanier, Beville Clark, George Smith Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Stone, Sir Benjamin Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Kerry, Earl of Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Courthope, G. Loyd Kimber, Sir Henry Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.) Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Williams, CoL. R. (Dorset, W.) Craik, Sir Henry Lonsdale, John Brownlee Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- Lowe, Sir Francis William Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Doughty, Sir George Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Younger, George Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- M'Arthur, Charles Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) Magnus, Sir Philip TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir A. Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia. Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Marks, H. H. (Kent) Fell, Arthur Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Supply (9th MARCH)
REPORT.
[Army Estimates, 1909–10.]
Resolution reported: "That a number of land forces, not exceeding 183,200 of all ranks, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at home and abroad, excluding His Majesty's Indian possessions, during the year ending March 31st, 1910."
Resolution read a second time.
I rise to move a reduction of 10,000 men. Last year I congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on having reduced the Vote at the rate of 10,000 a year since the other side were in office, and I said that if he proceeded on those lines for another five years he would bring the standing Army down to the right number. I was very disappointed this year to find that he had not proceeded on the lines of the previous two years, but had kept up the number to within 1,800 of last year. I think the numbers are much too high. The King has under his orders about 1,300,000 armed men, and that, I submit, is a force greater than is necessary for the defence of the Empire. The right hon. Gentleman gave as his reason for the strength of the striking force that he preferred to make our line of defence the frontier of the enemy's country, and he suggested that when our ships had cleared the sea we should be able by planting these 160,000 men on the enemy's soil, to compel them to accede to our wishes. How can such a thing possibly be required?
We are preparing ostensibly as though some powerful foreign country might some day have designs upon our country, and that we would be under the necessity of sending out a force of 160,000. Is there any country with which we might be at war on the Continent against which 160,000 men would be of any use? The only European Power against whom we can imagine the possibility of entering into conflict is France, Germany, or Russia. "What would be the use of sending a force of 160,000 to any of these countries? They would be of no good, and if they landed, the only question would be how we could get them back again safely. They would be no danger to the enemy. It seems to me that if the right hon. Gentleman wants to be able to land a force in the enemy's territory he must be able to land 500,000. It is in the recollection of the House that when we wanted to subdue two little Republics which had a force of 40,000 untrained men we had to put 250,000 men on the spot. In view of that fact does the right hon. Gentleman think it would be of any use landing 160,000 on the soil of a great European Power? We have only to read of what happened in the Russo-Japanese war to see how useless so small a number of men would be. What I am saying as to the need of 500,000 if an expedition is contemplated to a European country amounts almost to a truism. I do not see how it can be disputed. You have not to be a military expert to know that. These are matters of ordinary common knowledge. An expeditionary force of 160,000 would only be the means of getting us into difficulties. It will make us think that we are doing wonderful things when really we are only getting into trouble.
If the right hon. Gentleman is thinking of sending an expedition to a country where the natives have not got guns or only inferior guns, then I say that 160,000 men are too many, and that about 20,000 would be sufficient. The right hon. Gentleman has done a great deal in the way of organising the Territorial Army, which is undoubtedly intended for defence at home. That being so, surely we do not require this great army for a striking force abroad. The money to be spent on the 10,000 men I propose to strike off the standing army would give us 100,000 men for the Territorial force, because the class of man in that force is very much cheaper. The reason why the men in the standing Army cost more is that they are supposed to devote their lives to the business. But it unfortunately happens that the men who devote their lives to the business are not so good as those who go into it when an emergency arises. In South Africa Generals Botha and De Wet showed us how to conduct a campaign, and General Washington in America showed our generals how to do it. Men who devote their lives to this business cannot practise in the same way as lawyers and doctors practise their professions, and it would almost appear as if the longer they study the business the less expert they get at it.
Then there is the question of pensions. We spend nearly £4,000,000 on the ineffective portions of our Army. As long as we have a large standing Army there will be no diminution in the pension list, but rather a tendency to increase it. While it is the desire of every economist, and, indeed, of every man, to see the country well defended in time of need, surely no one desires that money should be wasted on enormous pensions. I merely mention the question of pensions incidentally because it is part of the system of our standing Army. In the case of the Territorial Army the men enter and get a few weeks' training, and there is no liability on the Government to pay them pensions. Consequently we are saved that cost, and if at the age of 70 they get a pension, it is only 5s. a week. That is very much less than £300 a year given to a man who retires at middle age.
We spend altogether between £80,000,000 and £90,000,000 a year on the defence of the Empire. I think we do not get value for the money; I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should push on more with his Territorial Army, and drop this large standing force to 100,000 men. I do not profess to have a right to dictate in that matter, but I have a right to question the rights claimed by other people who talk about the military requirements of the country, I had an interesting talk with a military man the other day on this subject, and he said that an army of 100,000 highly-trained men would be better for us than the Army we have got. We all know the old story about "spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar," and I would say that you are apt to economise where economy is not profitable. I have proposed a reduction of 10,000 this year; I do not want to reduce the Army all at once. When we have got the Army reduced to 100,000 men we will have a very large proportion of the present cost taken off the Estimates. Some por- tion of that will probably come back on to the Estimates under another name, but still there will be a large margin of saving. Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman replies to what I am now saying, I know he will state that the linked battalion system forces him to Keep a big Army in England because we have a big Army in India. If the Army in India were a fixed thing, that might be a reason, but my answer is that our Army in our dependencies and in India should be in proportion to the Army we have at home. I do not enter into the argument about the Cardwell system and the depot system. I leave that to military men; but I know what the position of the layman is. The layman says: "We want to spend so much money, and no more." If we ask the experts to guarantee the safety of the Empire, they will tell us the number of men required, but I do not think it is right to put on the experts the responsibility of guaranteeing the safety of the Empire. What we have to do is to say to them: "We are willing to spend so much money. Now. you spend it in the most effective way to produce the desired effects." I see no reason why the Estimates now should be so very much larger than was thought necessary in 1871, when they amounted to £13,000,000 for the Army. We are now spending nearly £29,000,000 on the Army, and it seems to me that instead of our neighbours getting more dangerous they are more peaceful. There has been a tendency towards a more peaceful attitude with respect to rival nations. It may be said that foreign nations are better armed than they were in 1871; I am not so sure of that if you consider the question relatively. The German Empire was in the pride of its greatest success in 1871, and they had lots of money from the French indemnity. In 1874 our Army expenditure was £13,500,000, and if that was sufficient then, why should we spend so much more now? We have entered into alliances with various countries, and I ask whether it is reasonable to suppose that anybody can wish to enter into war with us. There can be nothing gained by it. We hear a great deal about the possibility of an attack by Germany. Germany is one country that will not attack us. The Germans know that we know they will never attack us, and that we will never attack them. Supposing Germany wanted to humiliate us. Would it be sufficient to humiliate us unless she could subjugate us as well? If the Germans came here to humiliate us there might be danger; but if they humiliated us and then left us there is such a thing as revenge. I do not think any German would run the risk of making of us an enemy with the result that we should determine to have revenge upon her. No Germans would attempt to land on our shores except in pursuance of a policy of completely subjugating us. The United States has no military force, and until recently no naval force, to defend the country against an enemy, and yet if an enemy attempted to humiliate that country and succeeded for the moment the United States would soon construct an army and navy for the purpose of having revenge. If the German Emperor had the ambition to be a modern Cæsar then he might entertain the idea of invading England. But would France like to see England part of the German Empire? I do not think that she would. I do not think that Russia would. Then would arise the question of compensation. France and Russia would demand compensation—something by way of exchange.
I do not see that we want these great military provisions against these imaginary attacks by foreign Powers. I prefer a large Territorial Force, whose business is not to fight—a highly trained force to fight upon occasions. Such men make the best soldiers. When the Colonists in America revolted we sent against them the finest trained soldiers in Europe, and we were defeated. It is true that the French went to the assistance of the Colonists, but long before the Frenchmen arrived the people of the United States had made the situation a very difficult one for our troops. It was just the same in South Africa. In this country our Territorial Forces will be able to hold their own against any foreign invaders and give a good account of themselves. It would not be long before several millions of men would be in arms. I would therefore suggest that the standing Army should be reduced, and, if necessary, that the Territorial Army should be increased. I have not the slightest objection to the Territorial Army being increased if it is done by voluntary enlistment. We all know that the Horse Guards viewed the volunteers with jealousy. We have now a minister who is trying to encourage the volunteers. If you have a standing Army you have men devoted to war, with all sorts of weaknesses, and that is not desirable. If you have a citizen Army of married men, historical experience shows that they can fight as well as regular troops. I am in favour of such a force composed of husbands, grandfathers, grandsons, fighting together.
If I am not wearying the House I should like to say a word more about the vicious system which I am condemning. We have an Army of 183,000. Where is this Army? We ought to include the Indian Army, which would raise the number to 250,000. There is only about 130,000 at home. The rest are in various islands and colonies, and are no strength to the country. At these small points the enemy would attack us. We must, therefore, have our fleet at Malta, Gibraltar, Cyprus, and South Africa; and, in fact, all over the world. We want our fleet to strike an effective blow at any enemy who dared to attack us. The Russian fleet was defeated by the Japanese because Russia had her fleet in four different places—some vessels in the Baltic, some in the Black Sea, some in the North, and some at Port Arthur. The Japanese were able to defeat each separately.
I must remind the hon. Member that naval tactics are out of the scope of this Vote.
I must apologise. I wanted to say that this dispersion of the Army in different places was an inducement to attack us. Any soldier that is worth his salt wants to be attacked. He wants war. That is one reason why I want to have as few of these gentlemen as possible. There are newspapers which continually advocate war. They do it on every occasion and at every opportunity. Some of them apparently would like a war every day. The number of war advocates can hardly be counted. We cannot spend £80,000,000 every year on the Army and Navy without having an enormous number of people living on those who receive the money. We must get the standing Army down to 100,000 men, for the smaller the Army the smaller will be the demand for war; and I trust that the Amendment which has been moved will meet with the acceptance of the right hon. Gentleman.
I wish to support a good many Friends on this side of the House in their statements that they have been considerably disappointed by the slowness of the reduction in the Army. We quite admit that the heart of the right hon. Gentleman is thoroughly in the work; but what we expected was a larger reduction in the forces. I am perfectly in bounds when I say that at the General Election we protested that the expenditure in the late Government was much too large. We led our Constituents to believe that we should vote for a considerable reduction in the Army. Three years ago a motion for a considerable reduction was proposed. On that occasion I did not vote with the Mover, for an assurance was given that the Government intended to make a reduction of more than 10,000 when an opportunity was afforded.
I admit that the right hon. Gentleman has made a reduction of something like 21,000 men, but I do not gather that he is going to make any further reduction this year. I understand him to say that the only way in which he could make a further reduction is by reducing the number abroad, and that he did not think there would be an opportunity of reducing the number at home by a considerable number. A very excellent opportunity is afforded us to-day of reducing the number of our forces abroad by 5,000 men, and the number at home by 5,000.
We have now in South Africa 10,500 men; before the war we had 5,000, or 5,500 less than we have now. I never heard any answer given to the complaint that we were keeping these men in South Africa without any need. The Under-Secretary for the Colonies spoke yesterday in a jocular vein, and said that we were keeping those troops there because they were so very popular. There is no reason for our keeping up this enormous expense. We send a great many troops to India. I never understood they were sent there because they were so popular, and we make the Indians, who are very much poorer than the South Africans, pay for them. If these troops are kept in South Africa because they are so popular, I suggest that South Africa should be made to pay for them. It seems to me we ought to aim at this, and before many years to reduce the standing Army to what it was before the South African war. At that time the Government of the party opposite were in power; they were perfectly satisfied, I believe, that they had sufficient troops for their purposes. Why we should at this time of day require something like 30,000 more men is something I cannot make out. The right hon Gentleman the Secretary of State said yesterday that to cut off 10,000 more men would be like cutting off a limb from a man's body to make him more active and able to do his work. I suggest it is nothing of the sort. It is more like reducing the bulk of a man, which is very often a good thing. Of course, when the sky is overclouded, and there are fears of attacks upon ourselves or our Colonies, it is a very natural thing—and we cannot expect anything else—that people should be frightened and should press for an increase of the forces which are intended to preserve them from danger. We must, I suppose, bear that evil whatever it cost. But I cannot understand why we should not take the good with the bad, and in time, when the sky is not overclouded, when there is calm in the atmosphere, why should we not take advantage of it and make reductions? It reminds me of the old gentleman who got so obsessed with the fear of rain that in the end he always sat in his drawing room with his umbrella open over his head; we keep all these armaments in times when we have no apprehension. It seems to me unnecessary to keep in Malta such a large number of troops as we have there.
All of us, I am sure, give the greatest credit to the right hon. Gentleman for the business-like way he has reorganised and put in trim the War Office and all connected with it; but I must say I have a good deal of difficulty in approving of some of the things now going on in this country, trying to get up the military spirit. I dislike all this bugling and drumming and all this business about the Alliances Insurance clerks—
That has nothing to do with this Vote, which is only for the regulars.
Do I understand from your ruling that we are not allowed to discuss the Territorial Army upon this Vote? We discussed it yesterday upon the Committee stage.
Certainly the Territorial Army cannot be discussed on this Vote. We are confined in this Vote to what is in Vote A.
Has it not been the custom on the Report stage in the last few years, arranged by both sides, with the consent of the Speaker, to allow the discussion on the Report stage to cover the Territorial as well as the regular Army?
Were we not given an assurance by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State that we-should be able to continue this discussion-to-day on exactly the same lines?
No, that was the day before yesterday, and referred to yesterday's discussion. I did not say anything inconsistent with Mr. Deputy-Speaker's-ruling.
If he will look at his own appeal last night—
No, the night before last.
What hon. Members are doing is they are confusing the arrangements sometimes made at the commencement of the Committee stage when a general discussion is allowed by general agreement and with the consent of the Chairman on some later Vote-That has nothing whatever to do with the Report stage. The discussion on the Report stage must be confined to what is in-the Vote.
On, the next Vote, which is Vote 1, we may discuss the Territorial Army?
What we discuss on Vote 1 is whatever is taken in Vote 1.
Vote A includes the Permanent Staff of the Territorial Forces-There we vote men for the permanent staff of the Territorial Force. Is it not permissible, therefore, to discuss the Territorial Force?
The whole Territorial Force cannot be discussed on the one item because it is a separate vote.
I am not allowed then to allude to what is going on all over the country, to the military enthusiasm and the general uprising of the military spirit.
The hon. Member is on the question of the number of men and that only applies to the regular forces on Vote A.
The more we spend upon the armaments the less we have left for the comfort of the "Englishman's Home" which is now in everybody's mind. It seems to me we are doing what is sometimes said of the people of other countries, we are showing ourselves an hysterical and trembling lot of people. I suppose the lives of some people are so deadly monotonous they have to do something to keep themselves alive. We are told there are some people who do not sleep comfortable because of the fear of invasion. No doubt there are some people who are genuinely frightened, but beside these people there are those who pretend to be frightened, and there are a good many people who think that with the growth of the military spirit and the spread of armaments there will be certain to be introduced an element of protection. There are a great many who believe that when military expenditure becomes very large it must inevitably lead to additional powers being put into the hands of the Government to get the additional money by putting on a tariff on the imports of this country. I consider the enormous military expenditure is unnecessary, and that it takes away the money necessary for social reform, and for that reason I find it necessary to protest against what I consider we should not expect from the Government when this Government started on its career in this country, we expected a steady and largely decreased expenditure on the Army.
I have heard every speech delivered in this debate, and the only object of this Amendment seems to me to be to enable the hon. Member for Slea-ford to make two speeches on one subject. The hon. Gentleman who introduced this discussion admitted in an interesting piece of autobiography that he was following in the footsteps of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies. He wished to take up the mantle of Elijah that fell from the shoulders of the hon. and gallant Gentleman. But the hon. Member for Slea-ford forgets that the hon. and gallant Gentleman would now as soon assume the shirt of Nessus as the mantle with which before he used to drape his shapely limbs. I should humbly suggest to the hon. Member for Brentford that he had better profit by the exceedingly good example of the hon. and gallant Gentleman rather than follow him into the errors of his abandoned past— and it was a very abandoned past. Now, a great many speeches have been made with regard to the scheme of the Secretary for War. I think the right hon. Gentleman is like a good man struggling with adversity. It seems to me that he might have said, like Job— It must be very trying. I do heartily sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman who has given the whole of his time and activity to the problem of defence. Hon. Members get up and make speeches; one hon. Member said the average income of the officers in the Army was £l,000 a year, and another member talked of one million bayonets flashing in the sun.
It must be exceedingly trying to the right hon. Gentleman to have to listen to declarations of that sort, and to hear the criticisms made to which the House has listened. What shall we say, moreover, to a critic of a wholly different class like my hon. Friend the Member for Preston? The Secretary of State for War said he could not understand how so logical a mind as that of the hon. Member could imagine that we could get along with a fleet and a striking force without an Army at home. I can understand it very well. The fact is that the pitiless .logic of the hon. Member for Preston leads him, with all his abilities, into the most absurd situations. I have heard him point out that the Colonies were a drawback, and on this occasion he pointed out that the Army was unnecessary. We had the same argument from the hon. Member for Slea-ford just now.
Oh dear no.
I apologise for not having understood the hon. Member. It is not because I did not listen to him. He said: "if you cannot have a million you had better have none."
I said a striking force of 160,000 would not be a striking force which would be of any use against France, Germany or Russia.
I pass that by. I will not argue with the hon. Gentleman on points of strategy. We have before us a Vote for the Army, and we have an hon. Member calmly proposing to knock off 10,000 men. The same arguments he used would apply to 100,000 or 200,000 men. Then come the hon. Member for Newbury and his friends, and I would seriously invite the House to consider whether these hon. Members, by their perpetual encouragement of those who are hostle to the Governments of our foreign possessions, are not themselves, to a very large extent, the cause of the necessity for maintaining larger garrisons abroad than we should otherwise need to maintain. I submit that to the House as a serious proposal, and I know for my own part, as regards some parts of the British possessions, how fatal has been the mischief done by fallacious and fatuous criticisms of our rule abroad.
It has been laid down as a sort of dogma by one hon. Member after another that the invasion of the British Islands is an impossibility. I am not a student of strategy like the hon. Member for Slea-ford, but I happened to be reading the other day the life of Lord Lake, and in his time an invasion of Ireland was for some time successful, and was maintained without any base. I should think that established that the invasion of these islands was possible. Then the hon. Member for Brentford was clear that we could reduce a large number of troops because we need not have troops in Egypt, and he said we should restore to them self-government. When did they enjoy self-government? I do not know. The hon. Gentleman said we went for the benefit of the bond-holders. That is what hon. Gentlemen always say, but it is not accurate. The fact is, that we went there to make Egypt for the first time in its history other than a House of Bondage. That has been our work there. It has been our pride, and the envy of all other countries. I can only suppose that the hon. Member in the course of his peregrinations has been a week or two in Egypt, and acquired the ophthalmia which is very prevalent in that country, and prevents his seeing facts as they are.
Then hon. Members say, "When peace comes the cost of the Army is so great. How does it happen, if peace comes, that the Army is so great and the unproductive expenditure is continued? How is it that as soon as there is any reduction the hon. Member representing the constituency in which the reduction is made is up in arms, and says, "You are ruining my Constituency. What do you mean by reducing at Chatham, or wherever it is?" I can assure hon. Gentlemen that the expenditure on the Army is as productive as anything else. Surely, moreover, it provides a living for the men, and if this Motion were carried the immediate result would be that 10,000 men occupied in the honourable duty of protecting this country would be sent out to join the army of the unemployed. I have repeatedly asked a question in this House to which I have obtained no answer. I ask this very simple question, which seems to me to stand in the forefront of the whole problem. Will anybody tell me why it is that we, the English, the British, are to be considered entitled to occupy the fairest portions of the earth's surface—the best, at any rate—without being ready to fight for them, or being strong enough to frighten other people who want to take them from us? Do you think that it is because of our beaux yeux and our engaging qualities that other nations should go on allowing us to keep them? If hon. Members think so, let them spend a very little of their time going about the Continent and seeing what the opinions of other nations are and their attitude about us. I should think that this little affair in Bosnia and Herzegovinia would have rather tried the faith of hon. Gentlemen who take this view of the attitude of other countries.
With regard to the Indian portion of the Vote, and the contention that this reduction, if made would benefit the Indian poor, the Under-Secretary for the Colonies has always girded at the Cardwell system. He says it is a bad system, because you cannot make a reduction. Now, I regard with the gravest apprehension any attempt to tamper with the Cardwell system, which hitherto has provided for the defence of our fellow-countrymen in India. That force after the Mutiny was laid down as essential to the safety of the Empire. My hon. Friend himself has shown the advantage of that system. He says, "You cannot reduce." You cannot, and that is a proof of the foresight of that great man Mr. Cardwell foreseeing that a spasmodic and sentimental attitude at any paricular time might lead this country in a fatal moment to reduce its drafts to India. He pins them down to this admirable system, so that even those who have been willing to reduce the Army in India have not been able to do it.
What was the cost of the Army in Lord Cardwell's time? What was its cost when that great man lived?
Before Lord Cardwell's time it was laid down that the strength of the British Army in India should be 80,000, and at this moment it is only 76,000, although the population of the Empire has increased by 100,000,000, and its extent by upwards of 250,000 square miles.
I must remind the hon Gentleman that the strength of the Army in India does not arise except so far as it affects the strength at home under the linked-battalion system.
Yes, Sir; I apologise. I can I only say in self-defence that I was led astray by the hon. Member for Sleaford. Shall I be in order in saying that those who think that that strength can now be reduced must really be blinder than is credible, while the internal condition of India is far from satisfactory and while Persia is in a state of ferment. We have about £200,000,000 of capital invested in India, and if we are to continue to be a commercial race entitled to any consideration surely that ought to be an additional reason for keeping up the Army to a strength which, after all, now only costs 3 per cent, on the annual income of the British Empire and 0·4 per cent, of the capital of the British Empire. Then we come to the figures and to the way in which the account was balanced this year, and I regret very much that it was necessary to increase the Indian contribution, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean, who was ready to accuse the Secretary for War for making an unwise speech, was guilty of making an unwise speech himself. I criticise him with deference, because I understand that he is of a very different class to those who bring before the House their views as to reduction. I think the right hon. Gentleman's speech was liable to misunderstanding. I think the Secretary for War said that there might be 23 Army Corps if our Colonies agreed to this and made certain arrangements. I do not see any possible harm that could result from that. Where I do see harm is that the desire expressed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean to have laid before this House the correspondence between the Secretary of State and India as to the charging of the extra £300,000.
I am very sorry to interrupt again, but how does that arise on Vote A1 It really has no connection with it.
I apologise. I really thought I was dwelling upon the number of men who were affected by this Vote, and the amount of money available. I will endeavour most carefully to obey your ruling. Some little difficulty arises from the fact that apparently last night a wider survey was permitted than is possible at this stage. Should I, Sir, be in order in referring to the cost and the strength of the Army provided for by Vote A, because the hon. Member for Norwich, in speaking upon this matter, said that we, the rich British people, were going to raise this £300,000 from the poorest people in the world—the Indians. I say that there is an authority which he, at any rate, must highly prize, viz., the hon. Member for Merthyr, to the contrary, for that hon. Member said, a day or two ago at Oxford, that there was a greater mass of distress and destitution in this country than could be found elsewhere on the face of the globe. Both countries cannot be the poorest in the world. I think an arrangement should be made that the cost should be divided between the two countries. That is the fairest way, and that was done.
That does not arise on Vote A.
Am I in order on Vote A in referring to a speech made during the debate by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for South Monmouthshire, who said that there was a greater and more insistent cry for the reduction of armaments than there was in 1906, but there was a chronic state of high expenditure. My object is, the hon. and gallant Member being the only soldier among the Welsh Members, and having stated that opinion in debate—I wish to show that that is not the opinion held all over Wales, and that there are no less patriotic and good soldiers than himself who do not agree with that view, and that there are regiments of Nonconformists, with Nonconformist chaplains, who do not hold it, and that position certainly should not be allowed to pass without comment. I leave that if it is out of order.
The hon. Member seems to be putting a point of order to me. It is in order to say that an extra number of men, or a larger number of men, cost more money, and make a general argument on this point, but it is not possible to discuss in detail why this or that cost so much, because that will arise on other Votes which set up the money which is spent upon them.
I am in some difficulty in proceeding, because I should not be in order in pointing out that the spirit which inspires these Votes for reduction is entirely wanting in the most democratic parts of Europe. I presume I should be out of order, though perhaps the chance will come again, in referring to the matter of a cavalry dep6t for Wales, which I see myself clearly would be out of order.
I do not want to stop the hon. Member on an argument which is pertinent. He can certainly apply those expressions of opinion to the question of reducing the number of men.
I was on the reduction of men. Apparently I am not fortunate in my way of establishing my case. That, at any rate, was my intention. I do not think, as I have apparently not been very successful in sticking to the text, that I will try to go on with it any longer just now, but it is a very desirable thing that something should be said from these benches in a different spirit from what has been said in a great many speeches to which I have listened, in many cases, with great regret and profound disagreement. I think, on a Vote as regards the number of men to be included in the Army this year, it is a most deplorable thing that day after day action should be taken by certain groups of Members which tends to make the requirements of the Army larger. I do not regret that they should be augmented when necessary, but I profoundly regret the cause which leads to their being made larger in this respect.
I find myself in a position of considerable difficulty under your ruling. I came here this afternoon under the impression that we should be able to discuss the Territorial Army. But for that the right hon. Gentleman would only have got the Committee stage of Vote A last night, and would not have got Vote 1. I am very strongly opposed to the reduction which has been moved, and everyone in this House who has the true interests of his country at heart is equally opposed to it, and only those hon. Members who would risk the safety of the British Empire for merely what I consider a false economy would support it. When the Division was taken last night on the same reduction in Committee stage it was indeed surprising that there were no fewer than 100 Members who are generally considered supporters of the right hon. Gentleman who voted for it At any rate, I should like to give the right hon. Gentleman an asurance that Members on these benches will give him their assistance in saving him from his friends. In the way of reduction the right hon. Gentleman has already surely done enough. We heard only yesterday from the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, in his new capacity of Assistant to the Secretary of State for War, that the right hon. Gentleman in his three years of office has reduced the Army by no less than 22,000 men. Surely this in three years is enough to satisfy the extremist supporters of the right hon. Gentleman. But I am afraid nothing would satisfy them, except the complete destruc- tion and disappearance of the British standing Army.
The hon. Member for Sleaford advocated that the 10,000 regular soldiers should be replaced by 100,000 of the Territorial Army. Where would he suggest these men are to come from? At the present moment we have not got the 300,000 that we require. Would he suggest that we should adopt compulsory methods?
Certainly not. If the hon. Member had heard my speech last night he would know that is the last suggestion I would make.
I have listened to the whole of the hon. Member's speech this afternoon and I did not hear him suggest any method for finding the necessary number.
The ordinary method. When we want men for other works we pay them for what we require.
It sounds a very good method, but the hon. Member would find considerable difficulty in his way.
With regard to the increase of horses for the cavalry, I think the idea is excellent, as far as it goes, but I do not altogether understand what the right hon. Gentleman's methods are to be. As far as I have understood them, he is going to purchase an extra 200 horses a year for three years. I am afraid this is not enough, and it will prove of little use, though it is a step in the right direction. I understand these horses are to be placed, after they are bought, upon farms. Are they to become the property of the farmer or in what position are they going to be?
Lodgers.
I suppose a good deal depends on what quarters they find. If the quarters are good when the Army requires them they may find them in excellent condition; but if the quarters are bad, or if the farmer is inattentive, and turns the horses out to grass, and a sudden call is made by the Government for the horses to be called in, they will be found in an absolutely useless condition to take the field. I do not think this scheme is at all a practicable one. It would be far better to give extra horses to each cavalry regiment quartered in England. There are always casualties which have to be made up. I think it is worthy of reconsideration, and I think my suggestion would add to the efficiency of the cavalry regiment.
The hon. Member who has just spoken has offered the Secretary for War the support of himself and his friends on the Army Estimates. I think the right hon. Gentleman would get a good deal of support from his own friends. Those who support the Army Estimates are perhaps not always so articulate as those who do not. But there is a very strong body of opinion on this side of the House in favour of the policy of the right hon. Gentleman. I have complete confidence in that policy, and, after all, the right hon. Gentleman was sent to the War Office to give us an Army we could rely upon—to do that which hon. Members opposite signally failed to do, either in peace or in war. Whatever may be said with regard to the Territorial Army, it cannot be disputed that the regular forces at this time are more ready for use than they have been in previous recollection. There seem to be several reasons against any further diminution in the regular forces at present. I should myself be strongly opposed to any further reduction. We are going through a transition period as regards the second line of defence, and until that second line is in proper working order it would, I think, be very unwise to reduce further the regular forces. And then, again, unless the Government were to advise the House that a reduction of our over-sea garrisons was possible it would be an enormous responsibility for a comparatively uninformed House to take to advise their reduction. Again, unless our Fleet is to be tied to the North Sea there must be an effective defensive force, and until we have a sufficient Territorial Army, properly officered, we ought to maintain an adequate regular force. The forces of our neighbours show no tendency to diminish, and they have huge armed forces within striking distance of these shores. I would not advance aeroplanes as a reason for maintaining a large standing Army at present, but I am not at all sure that they will not become a very serious contingency, and that you may not some day see a fleet of aeroplanes coming over the tops of the ships. The Territorial Force will need a year or two's work yet before we can altogether rely upon it, and I think, in some respects, the charge for the regular forces may be increased by having to stiffen the regular staff which is at the. back of the Territorial Force.
The hon. Member for Sleaford spoke a good deal about the impossibility of a. German invasion. No one trusts more-than I do that we may remain on the best and most friendly footing with our neighbours, but there is an off-chance of a very effective invasion in view of the extension of the great shipbuilding programme, the enormous amount of transport shipping, the enormous extension of the works on the German coast, and the vast forces which could rapidly be embarked there. I live nearer the German basis than the British basis, and there crosses one's mind sometimes the desirability of having a sufficient Territorial Force and regular force at home to protect us, in the case of our own regular forces being in a large measure abroad, from the chance of German invasion.
One of the reasons we have to rely to some extent upon our regular forces of the Army at present is that our North Sea fleet has no North Sea base, and in these circumstances I, for one, would never undertake the responsibility of reducing the armed forces below a level which affords us ample security against that deficiency. I hope that the stability of the British Empire is the greatest security for peace in the world; but that stability rests-ultimately on force, and I congratulate the-right hon. Gentleman on maintaining the: armed forces sufficiently and in a satisfactory state.
I wish to ask the-right hon. Gentleman some questions. The first question is whether no more than the extra 1,000 horses to which he referred are to be let out on hire, or whether more are to be let out under that system? Then, are those horses, which he described as. larger, going to be paying guests, or is-their keep going to be paid for, or are there going to be any conditions as to the work they will be allowed to do, or as to the way in which they will be kept, with any safeguard to prevent them in times of emergency from being returned to the Army after perhaps being six months at grass? We have been most amazingly patient on the question of the supply of horses for the future. Those who have taken any interest in the subject have been for the last two or three-years shot backwards and forwards between the War Office and the Board of Agriculture. At last our hopes have been excited that the President of the Board of Agriculture has been framing some scheme. Is there any chance of our getting that scheme this year. As there does not seem to be any provision for it in the Estimates, I presume that there is no chance of this scheme being brought into existence in the course of the year for which the Estimates have been made. The way in which the question has been treated is almost ridiculous. The War Office say they cannot answer until they hear from the Board of Agriculture, and the Board of Agriculture say they cannot answer until they hear from the War Office. Speaking for an agricultural Constituency in which a large number of horses are bred, we are entitled to know this year what the scheme is going to be, so that the farmers may be quite certain that they may on reasonable terms do all they can to provide horses for the Army, and that we may be able to keep in this country the best of the stock which now goes abroad. I should be very pleased if any hope was held out of the Board of Agriculture not wasting another year in revising this scheme.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Leith should have spoiled an otherwise excellent argument as to these general schemes by making what I think is a quite unfair and unprovoked attack on the policy of the late Government. He said that the late Government had failed in producing efficiency. They, at any rate, produced an Army which carried us through the most serious war of our generation, and placed in the field a larger number of soldiers than were ever placed in the field before by the British Empire, in spite of the discouragement of a number of my Friend's friends, who at that time informed us that they saw no reason whatever why we should make any preparation.
I supported the making of preparations.
Yes; but he made a general charge against the party sitting on this side of the House. But what I now wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman is what he has been able to do with regard to a matter affecting a corps to which I once had the honour to belong—the position and prospects of the officers of the Royal Garrison Artillery. The right hon. Gentleman is fully aware of the deplor- able position in which these officers find themselves as the result of want of promotion occasioned, not by anything over which they have control, but by reorganisation of our military system. On two occasions the right hon. Gentleman has given very sympathetic replies, which have not led apparently to any action on his part. So far from improving the prospects of these men have become much worse. The steps which have been taken have only tended to increase the hardships of their position. Five lieutenant-colonels have been reduced, which has made the prospects of promotion much worse for the remainder. The War Office now, as I understand, propose to extend the age of retirement from 48 to 50. That may save a few officers at the top, but it will stop the promotion further of those who are below for another two years. There have been no promotions since the beginning of May last year, and the senior captain of that corps is very nearly 21 years in the service, and there are six majors in the corps who have actually retired for age, I think in June—a thing which I do not believe has happened in connection with that distinguished corps in the memory of this House. I can assure you from personal knowledge that the discontent and discouragement among these men are very great. When the Royal Artillery regiment was divided into two parts, as it was some twelve years ago, I remember that officers were assured again and again by the War Office and every military authority that the prospects of promotion, etc., would not really oe affected disadvantageously by the change. This was emphasised again and again. Twelve years have passed since that undertaking was given, and already the officers of the Garrison Artillery are four years behind their contemporaries of the Field and Horse Artillery in that short time. We feel that they have been very badly treated. Since the right hon. Gentleman has been kind enough to hold out some hopes of amelioration of their loss many of them now feel that they are faced with the question of giving up their profession, as there is no prospect for them in the future. If anything is to be done to keep these men in the Service I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will make some announcement as to their future as soon as possible. I am sure that he has a particular sympathy with these officers on account of their high standing. There is no body of men in His Majesty's service except possibly the Royal Engineers who have anything like the high standing of these men, and it does seem a pity that the services of these men should be lost to the State simply because the State is carrying out a scheme of reorganisation of the Army. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is anxious to do what he can in this matter, but I feel that something is necessary to be said now if this discontent is not to go on until the officers themselves leave because they feel that there are no prospects for them in their present position.
Before saying what I wish to say on the general subject I wish to reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Fareham. I have great sympathy with the way in which he has presented the matter, and no doubt the lot of the Royal Garrison Artillery officer has been hampered. The Royal Regiment of Artillery was divided, I think, in 1898—at any rate, before the war—and the change in their prospects, which would in the ordinary course have taken place if there had been no war would have automatically fulfilled the arrangement made. Then came the war and very rapid promotions, and the result was that the promotions became so numerous that the ordinary course of things was deflected altogether, and today the various ranks of officers are congested. The upper ranks are filled by men who do not retire as rapidly as takes place in cavalry and infantry. The result is that promotion is slower. There is a very large number of officers in that corps who have high technical and scientific acquirements for the Army. The officers of that corps are constantly requested for employment outside their regiment. The result is that these officers are absorbed when a vacancy takes place. Promotions being overflown; the only cure is to find more employment for the higher ranks. I am negotiating about that at present. What it will come to I cannot say. It does not rest with me, but we will do our best. The whole matter is very complicated and technical, and without a long speech I could not enter into details. I may say, however, that by about the year 1912, that is, in three years' time, things should be at their normal footing. I cannot make any definite promise on this subject, but I will do my very best.
Now I come to the more general aspects of the debate. I should be very ungenerous if I did not acknowledge the very kindly treatment which I have met with from those sitting in all parts of the House —notwithstanding the criticisms which have been made. Hon. Members have been very forebearing. I think I may say that no man has a better opportunity than I have of knowing that we are only in the initial stages of our organisation, and that there are all sorts of gaps to be filled before we have got the Army into anything: like complete shape. It is only by years of continuous work by more Governments than one that this great question can be put right. The tone of the debate has given me hope that the feeling of the House is that we should try and conduct Army discussions on the same basis as we treat Naval discussions, that is with a view to continuity. If the Army organisation can be put on a continuous footing; we shall get more rapidly to efficiency. I gratefully acknowledge what has been; said by the Leader of the Opposition and by those who acted with him in this direction.
I will now turn to my own side. It is quite true the hon. Member for Leith Burghs said that we were returned to power not merely to make economies in the Army, but also to make the Army efficient. I do not say we have done this, but we have tried to do it, and the question of money has been a secondary consideration and efficiency our first consideration. We have tried to combine efficiency with economy. We have done our best to achieve this end, and I think we have done something in this direction.
My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham asked me a question about South Africa. He asked: "Why do you not bring away the garrisons from South Africa?" Well, there are reasons why we did not bring away our garrisons from South Africa. The first is that had we done so in the present condition of the South African Constitution we should have left South Africa denuded of troops, and that is not at all desirable. South Africa requires a certain amount of troops as a garrison, just as we have everywhere else where the British flag flies. There comes a time in the history of our Colonies when they are able to take care of themselves. I would remind the House that it is only quite recently that we have withdrawn our Imperial troops from Canada, and that was done at the request of Canada herself. In the same way troops have been withdrawn from other Colonies, and in the course of time I hope South Africa, with the splendid prospects opened out to her, will be able to take care of herself in the near future. In the meantime, and in the present state of the South African Constitution, I do not think it would be wise for us to withdraw all our troops. I may say that it required all the powers of persuasion I possess to induce the South African Premiers to assent even to our withdrawing the very considerable number of troops we have already withdrawn from South Africa.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think it right to the taxpayers of this country to keep our troops in South Africa merely to please the South African Premiers?
That was not the only reason. We are responsible for giving South Africa the best possible chance of becoming prosperous, and we have tried in every way to meet the wishes of the people in South Africa as represented to us by their Governments. The Governments of South Africa were unanimous in their opinion against taking away the whole of the garrison. We withdrew last year four battalions of infantry, a regiment of cavalry, some artillery, and other details. That was a substantial reduction, and we should have been very unwise had we led the people of South Africa by our action to doubt that a Liberal Government sympathises with their aspirations and wishes to help them in every way that we Can. Under these circumstances, I think it was wise for us to proceed gradually in this matter.
There is another reason. We have to keep a certain reserve of troops. We keep a, reserve of troops for India and other places, and it is well known that South Africa is a very convenient place under present circumstances to keep a part of our Army reserve. That is one reason why I should be very reluctant to get rid of our garrison in South Africa. I think I have now answered the hon. Member for Oldham's question, and the only other point which remains for me to reply to is that which has been raised by the hon. Member for Oswestry and the hon. Member for one of the divisions of Yorkshire. The point they raised related to cavalry horses. We propose to increase the horses for the cavalry by adding each year for the next three years 200 horses, and in the fourth year we shall add another 100, making 700 horses in all, which we are going to add to the cavalry establishment.
Only 200 horses?
No, Sir, 700 altogether. That will be the amount by which the establishment of horses will be increased. These horses are not wanted at all times of the year, and only on certain occasions, such as manæuvres. On the Continent, where they keep a good many cavalry horses, they find a great many people anxious to have the horses, and those who want them are not only farmers, but all sorts of people. I may say that I have received an offer from a young lady to entertain two of our cavalry horses, and that is a kind of thing which is very often likely to happen. We lend these horses, and they do a certain amount of light work for their bed and board, and we shall get them back again when we want them. All these horses will be up to the best standard, and they will be carefully trained before we let them out. They will be thoroughly efficient, and we can have them at a moment's notice when we require them. They will be placed out somewhere near the headquarters where they might be required in case of necessity. We do not anticipate any difficulty under this arrangement.
Supposing there were many casualties with the cavalry horses, could the War Office call upon this reserve of horses at any moment?
Yes, Sir, at any moment, because they are only lent out at the pleasure of the War Office authorities.
Can the right hon. Gentleman inform me what the average number of casualties are at the present time in the cavalry regiments?
Does the hon. Member mean in time of peace or war?
In time of peace.
We knock 10 per cent, off the peace establishment.
Can the Secretary for War inform me where these horses will be trained? [Cries of "Order, order."]
They will form part of our regular establishment of horses. The regiments will not keep the whole of their horses, and the extra horses only will be lent out. If it is found that the horses are wanted they will, of course, be kept .with the regiment. The plan we are trying of lending out these extra horses is one which is common on the Continent, and we propose to try it as an experiment here.
What will be the additional cost of the 700 horses?
I presume these additional horses could not be stabled with the others?
No, they are extra horses.
Would the farmers have to pay anything for the horses lent to them?
I should think not. Our primary object is to have the horses well taken care of, and the farmers would probably have to insure them. As to the other questions about the Board of Agriculture scheme, it is a very useful one, but it does not touch the question of mobilisation directly. I agree it touches indirectly Army matters, because it puts some check on the diminution in the amount of breeding, and, therefore, the War Office is very much interested. There was a discussion on this matter in another place recently, and the President of the Board of Agriculture gave an answer which I entirely endorse when he said that he was at one with the Secretary for War in stating that he did not care how soon another Department, which neither of us could control, decided that this was a matter which ought to be taken up. Of course, it rests with the Treasury to say how soon this shall be done. I think it is a very good scheme. If I have dwelt at length upon this question of the supply of horses it is because I am concerned as to the serious state of our horse supply. I wish I could say that everything in this respect will be in shape within a very short time. I am afraid it will take a long while to get this horse question into shape, work as hard as we may, but I think the real beginning is to do what I have spoken of, and add to the establishment of horses in the way we are doing at the present time.
Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to give us any explanation as to why he misled the House last night?
I am afraid by using the word "misled" the hon. Member is using a word which on reflection he will rather regret. All that happened was that the hon. Member for Burnley had been making a speech in favour of a reduction of the Army by 10,000 men, and my remarks were addressed to that topic. I appealed to the House to come to a decision on that question, and I said that a further opportunity would be offered for discussing these matters to-morrow. I had in view not any technical rule about the Report stage, nor anything else, except the fact that we were discussing a reduction of the Vote by 10,000 men. I do not think it is right to suggest that I misled the House.
I will read to the House the words of the Prime Minister: "There will be an opportunity for further discussion on all these matters tomorrow."
"These matters." We were discussing the 10,000 men reduction. I think it is too bad to suggest it. The hon. Member must be supposed to know the rules of order just as much as I do.
I apologise.
May I first say that I have not risen to join in the proposals of my Friends who have criticised the right hon. Gentleman for his conduct of the War Office. I am not capable of judging. So far as I can judge, it appears to me that he has shown enormous industry and a singular devotion to a very difficult task. As he just told us, his duty was to bring an inefficient Army and an inefficient War Office into a state of efficiency. To that he has brought great intelligence, ability and industry. May I also say one word, too, of my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. In all these debates the speech which to me, at any rate, was the most interesting was the speech that he made two days ago upon the improvement of the condition of the recruit, in the life of the common soldier. He told us that the bad conditions of barrack life were being improved, and that the standard of living of the private soldier was higher in consequence of the reforms which the right hon. Gentleman has introduced. The soldier's standard of education was higher, his standard of morals was higher, disease and death rates were lower, rates of drunkenness and crime were also reduced. I want to say at once that I do not begrudge one shilling for all these improvements.
On the contrary, I would thank the right hon. Gentleman and the War Office for all the efforts he made that the life of the common soldier, the workman, should be raised and improved in every possible way. The hon. Member for the Leith Burghs says that after all the security of this country rested on force. No doubt it does, but I have risen to ask is it absolutely necessary that it should always rest on force? [Opposition cries of "Yes."] The security of our great commercial houses, of our families, of our persons, no longer rests on force. [Cries of "Does it not?"] When we quarrel with our neighbour we do not fight him. We go to law with him. What I want to know is whether it is a counsel of despair, or a counsel of provocation that we should endeavour to bring about in international relations, in quarrels between one nation and another, a method of settling our disputes which might supersede the arbitrament of the sword, the rifle, and the cannon—that is the arbitrament of the law, and a tribunal of justice? A great deal has been done already in that direction. What I desire to ask is whether the Government seriously intends to, or is seriously desirous of, bringing about a change of methods by which these vast armaments, so costly, so oppressive, which have been so much criticised in the last few days, will be unnecessary? Forty years ago nearly we in Britain had a terrible quarrel with an enormous Power—a friendly Power—the United States of America, over the "Alabama" claim. Wise statesmen sat on those benches and brought about arbitration to settle that dispute without us going to war. Since that time, doubtless, many minor disagreements have been settled by those means.
The Czar sent out his Rescript; then followed the Hague Tribunal; Mr. Carnegie gave £30,000 to the cause; and, I believe, at the present moment the Temple of Peace is rising for the very purpose of settling disputes between the nations. I think we can go in this direction, and I want to know whether the Government is going in that direction? Till we can move in that direction it is no use pressing for a reduction in the Army. It is no use hoping that these enormous burdens which are laid upon the working people of this and every country—these enormous burdens of armaments—can be lightened. I have never been able to understand—it was impertinent, perhaps, for me to vote for the reduction, as I did last night, for I am not able to judge whether 140,000, 160,000, or 180,000 men is the proper number for our regular Army—but I have never had it explained by my right hon. Friend why we require all these men. What is it for? Who are we going to kill? I never can forget that the cost of maintaining falls upon the very, very poor people. [Cries of "No."] There are very poor people among my Constituents who have to pay for them. I say that men who are earning labourer's wages—perhaps 18s. a week— and have to bring up a family cannot afford in addition to that to carry the soldier on their backs.
There was a very significant question at a meeting in Battersea which I read about in the newspapers. There was an appeal being made as to the Territorial Army. The speaker was urging those present to "Come forward and defend your homes." There was a voice from the crowd: "We have no homes to defend." I thought that was significant. Whilst men have no homes to defend how can you expect them to-maintain these expensively dressed, expensively fed, expensively housed and accoutred men for whom we are now about to vote the money, while the men who pay for them have to live under slum conditions, and can hardly keep body and soul together?
It is disappointing to anyone who holds my views to find that the Estimates are eight millions higher for the Army than were the Estimates ten years ago. Why they need to be so much higher to-day, it is beyond my power of comprehension to understand. We cannot forget the pledges which were given, the promises which were made by Ministers; by Members who are now Ministers, and who became Ministers upon those promises. It does seem to some of us that we were promised bread and have got a stone. I am afraid that the Government — I thought the Lobby last night proved it—that the Government, by the maintenance of these huge armaments, is weakening the allegiance of its supporters. It is not showing itself strong enough to resist the pressure of the Navy League, and other of these organisations. It appears to be carried like a straw upon a torrent. I will give you an instance. The Chief Secretary for Ireland—a man of peace, surely—a man in whom I have the greatest trust, and for whom I have the greatest affection—what did he do? He went down to his Constituents the other day and expressed himself shocked that America had joined the ranks of the militarists. "It is a miserable pity," he said, "that wherever you go, you find armaments, armaments, armaments." Why does not he resist it? He is now a Minister of the Crown. He is now a Ruler of the Empire. Why does he helplessly say that everyone else is doing this, and we must drift along. Mere words are no good. We want deeds, not words. Why does he acquiesce, for example, in these great Estimates? He says that the speech of Mr. Taft, on assuming the Presi- dency of the United States, was to him "words of doom." Then he goes on to utter like words himself, which to Mr. Taft himself must also seem words of doom. He blames others, and he then imitates them. I want to see Statesmen who will not utter fine sentiments, but act upon them. My right hon. Friend spoke of the miserable game of "beggar my neighbour." It is a miserable game. What does he do? He immediately sits down and takes a hand. He says that he sees no cure for all this but fraternisation. I agree. Why not practice it? That is what I got up to say. Why not first go to Germany? Germany, to my mind, is no more likely to be our enemy than any other country. I believe it to be more friendly perhaps than other nations. I have not the slightest fear of a German invasion. But Germany is our latest foe. I say why not go to our neighour—they are almost our relatives—our Crown and their Crown are closely related by birth, our Court is half German, and I am told that our young Princes speak with a half-German accent.
Why cannot we act as neighbours and friends together, with a view to laying down our arms? Let us vie with one another in the arts of peace and not of war. Let us appeal when we have to settle any dispute that may arise between us to the lawyer, and not to the soldier. I am rather sorry I did not rise before the right hon. Gentleman replied, because I should have liked to say a word or two about the question of arbitration. I believe we spend an amount on our armaments which frightens people outside, and I believe the real danger of war is in the magnitude of our armaments. The little nations of Europe who have neglected to provide for war are really more secure than the great nations with their huge armaments. We have great and far-reaching schemes of social reform—schemes which, I gather from some words of the Prime Minister and others, will take years to carry out. The Government are bent upon a policy of uplifting the people from their great poverty, but I maintain these huge Estimates for the Army and Navy are hindering that policy. It is quite clear to my mind that some of the projects of the Government have already been postponed in consequence of these Estimates, rendered necessary by a policy incompatible with and antagonistic to those projects, and I hope that people will realise that the more armaments they have the less social reform they will have.
I should like to take advantage of the Prime Minister's presence to say a few words upon the reply of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for War, and I wish to refer to the subject of the provision of horses for the Army. I quite accept his plea that it is impossible to attend to all the matters which call for the attention of the War Office at once. But I should like to urge him in the presence of the Prime Minister to consider that this question of the supply of horses for our Army is very vital, and it is one to which the attention of the Government should be directed without further delay. The Minister for War as much as said so himself, and he has himself indicated that there are certain difficulties. May I without presumption warn him that there appear to be too many different Departments of the Government engaged, and even bodies of private persons are being directed or solicited to lend a hand in this matter. There is the greatest danger of your having different buyers in the same field cataloguing horses a number of times over for different persons. That is a very great danger. A number of the County Associations are very desirous of doing something also in regard to the supply of horses. We know that the Minister of Agriculture is very desirous of doing something to increase the supply, and the right hon. Gentleman has a scheme of his own. It is, I think, absolutely necessary that the Government should act as a central body in this matter through the Kemount Department, and that they should ascertain directly what horses there are in the country.
We are doing so.
You are doing it in a way. You are having a census of a voluntary character through the police; the County Associations are also having a census of a voluntary character, whilst other bodies are traversing the same ground. That is a dangerous system, which in the long run must prove an uneconomic one. As the horse ceases to be as necessary for private purposes as it was in many directions, it will still continue to be absolutely necessary in the mobilisation of the Army, therefore it is more appropriate that the War Office should take the lead in dealing with this question of the supply of horses than any other Department. In the Remount Department there are officers as capable as any that can be found to assist in this matter. You would have the advantage of the full experience and activity of those advisers and the assistance of the young officers who are specially qualified to help.
I can only say as to the Remount Department that we are very well pleased with their work, and are very hopeful of their success.
That does not denude altogether of validity the suggestion I made to the right hon. Gentleman that his having three or four different Departments, each trying to take a hand in this matter, and the County Associations also trying to take a hand, gives rise to the danger of overlapping. I know certain districts in the country where there has been overlapping. I know there are private persons who are employed to inform the Remount Department what horses there are in the district, and I also know that those persons were going to look at the same horses on behalf of the County Associations. In a matter of such importance there should be no overlapping, and though, as I have said, the horse has ceased to be so important to the general community, it has not ceased to be of vital importance to the Army, and I say the War Office is the proper department to keep complete control over all the various agencies. There is another danger. In many parts of England there are private persons whose interest it is to have a large number of horses at their disposal to let out for various purposes. But one result of the activity of certainly the County Associations may be to make it less worth the while of private persons to engage in that somewhat speculative trade on as large a scale as they now do. Do not let us fall between two stools. Do not let us kill private enterprise in that way before we have taken steps, through the activity of Public Departments, to see that there is no diminution in the number of available horses which can be obtained at short notice. A number of horses on short notice are now let out over and over again to various branches, certainly of the Territorial Force. It is important that the present sources of supply should not be dried up before the Government have substituted for them sources which are under their own observation and control. For my own part, I believe that no final solution of this question will ever be arrived at until you take your courage into your hands and adopt the policy of buying horses when they are young and keeping them for a certain period. I know the question of cost has to be investigated. I know that ten years ago it was thought to be a more costly method than to buy horses in large numbers on mobilisation; but I think the experience you have had in the South African War tends to show that it would be more economical to have, at any rate, the basis of a Remount Establishment in this country, and perhaps also in other parts of the Empire. I felt bound to make this observation, because I do not think we ought to drift another year over this important question of the supply of horses needed for mobilisation. If I may ask a question of the right hon. Gentleman who may, by the indulgence of the House, answer it, I should like him to give some explanation of exactly what the constitution is to be of the division which he is creating in Egypt. I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that he is bringing back battalions from Egypt.
Four battalions of infantry.
I wish only to ask a single question as to what is the constitution of the new Seventh Division which he intends to mobilise in Egypt?
In South Africa there are ten battalions. We withdraw four, leaving six. Out of that we take four, which constitutes a third of a division. In Egypt there are four more battalions which we can also use for this purpose, and we have earmarked them.
They are not on your Estimates.
Then in Malta there are five battalions, and we earmark four of them. That gives us the three infantry parts of the division. The cavalry details are in Egypt, and we are providing mobilisation material, and the Maltese part would probably be used in connection with Egypt. The whole object would be to get the constituent parts of a division which you could put together for war and which should be adapted to the kind of use and the kind of transport and artillery which would be necessary.
Without calling on the reserve?
Yes.
And, presumably, the place of the troops in Malta will be taken by others on a peace establishment!
That is so.
There is a misapprehension among hon. Members opposite as to the motives which prompt us in endeavouring to keep down expenditure on the Army. It should not be forgotten that a nation does not depend entirely upon the efficiency of its Army and Navy; it also depends upon its material -wealth and strength. A nation which is bankrupt could not carry on a war. Our expenditure has been increasing year by year. During the Administrations of Peel -and of Lord John Russell the entire expenditure of this country did not exceed fifty millions, and it remained at that for a great many years. Then came the Crimean War, which cost £30,000,000 the first year, £50,000,000 the second, and £34,000,000 the third. Immediately peace was declared, £33,000,000 was knocked off, and in not a long number of years the whole additional debt was paid off. We had a much less powerful Navy then than now, and we had a small Army. Our ally, France, and Russia had enormous armies, with the result that those countries became financially weak, Russia having to sue for peace. On the other hand, we, with our small Army grew gradually stronger and stronger, and we could have very well carried on that war for five years longer.
War does not depend on your Army or Navy alone. It also depends on your purse. When the late Queen Victoria came to the Throne the total expenditure was 12 millions on the Navy and Army; and 120 per cent, has been added to that in 50 years. At the time of the second jubilee the expenditure of the Army and Navy was 42 millions. Then came the enormous expense of the war. Surely we are not more imperilled now than we were 20 years ago. We are at peace with all the world and on friendly relations with France and Germany. I am sure the people of France and Germany, especially the working people of those countries, are well disposed towards us, and all anxious if possible to avoid war. We have got rid of the problem of South Africa and we have practically no danger to look forward to.
I hope neither the Admiralty or the War Office are influenced by the extraordinary scare we have heard of lately. I suppose there must be a periodical scare. There was one in 1859, when we started the volunteers. From what I remember we did not believe in that scare, but we joined the volunteers because we thought it was good fun. We did not talk so much as they do at present, and we paid almost all our own expenses. There was a scare in the time of Oliver Cromwell and the idea was that the enemy were going to land a force. He sent down two troops of horse, and that was quite sufficient, and the enemy did not land. Now, we hear talk of ten British soldiers to meet one invader. The country does not believe in this. I think these scares are engineered entirely by the yellow press either for the purpose of selling their papers or for war purposes, so that they can say, "This is our war." We heard some absurd stories about spies, and nothing more grotesque than the talk about foreign officers going about in order to make inefficient maps while they could get copies of the Ordnance maps for a shilling in any shop.
An hon. Member on the other side asked whether there had been foreign officers seeking out a landing place on the Isle of Wight. If any foreign force were to land there we should have them "on toast." They forget there is the Solent which separates the Isle of Wight from the mainland, and that it is swept by the gunboats of Portsmouth. I do not think any foreigner outside of a lunatic asylum would think of trying to effect a landing on the Isle of Wight. "Why are these scares, put forward? I wish there was a little less talking and a little more real work. In my county some people talk very big about "Little Englanders." We have a rifle range in the county, and some of those people—the so-called patriots— wanted to get rid of the rifle range because they could in that way make a better ground for the eighteenth hole of their golf links.
The whole of the country is suffering under the burden of taxation. I know if reports are true the expenditure is greatly increased by the old age pensions, but that is done to alleviate distress. Surely we might get back to the twenty millions which in 1898 was considered quite sufficient by the right hon. Gentlemen opposite. I would rather say something pleasant to the Secretary of State for War, but I must say that I think there is great danger to recruiting in the action of the Alliance Assurance Company. The pleasant thing I have to say is that I think it is a very good plan as to the horses. Hon. Members said he will never get farmers to take care of those horses. I am a farmer, and I will take one of them. Any big farmer must have a horse t(; ride or drive, especially if he is a Member of the Education Committee, the County Council, or the Territorial Association. I think a great many would find it convenient to take those horses and keep them in health and condition.
The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down defended the reduction on the score of economy, but I think that is not a convincing point, because we know the money the right hon. Gentleman would save by this reduction they are quite prepared to spend in another direction. The hon. Member for Sunderland complained that the cost of the Army had gone up eight millions since ten years ago. It has gone up for reasons mentioned in the speech of the Financial Secretary. The greater part of the increase is due to the fact that the soldier is better clad, better fed. better housed, and altogether better looked after, and you cannot expect to do that for nothing. In all departments of life the cost of living has gone up in the last ten years, and we cannot complain if it has gone up in the soldiering line too. The hon. Member for Sleaford made a strong appeal for peace. Fighting is no doubt idiotic, but I do not know how we are going to change it. We made a passionate appeal at the Hague Conference for a reduction of armaments which met with a most distinct rebuff. I think it would be somewhat undignified to go about Europe asking for a reduction people will not have.
The prospect which he held out is not a very comforting one. He says get rid of the soldiers and let us have our disputes settled by lawyers. You can get the best kind of General for a thousand pounds per year, and the lawyer would want a thousand pounds per month. Is that a way to economise? I think it must have struck many hon. Members in this part of the House that while the Proposer and Seconder of this Resolution in their demand may be perfectly genuine in their desire, and may have no doubt a strong wish for peace and to fulfil their election pledges to their Constituents, they did not undoubtedly convince the House that they have studied the question from a national point of view. The hon. Member for Sleaford generally manages to amuse the House, but I do not think he produced any adequate or sound reason, or one which would bear investigation from a military point of view.
The hon. Member for Oldham earmarked the men he would reduce. He said we could reduce the men in Malta and trust to the Navy to defend that island. I venture to think that that instance is the very worst and most vicious idea in national defence it is possible to produce. It is quite certain if you once remove the garrison from Malta the dockyard authorities would absolutely decline to let the British Navy go near the shore. I think the House should look with suspicion on those hon. Members when they cannot bring forward more adequate reasons for what they say. In the three years in which I have been in this House and in which I have listened to hon. Members, some of whom have been promoted to the Front Bench, I have heard nothing to convince me that the time has yet arrived when we can vote for a reduction.
I hope I shall not give any offence to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norfolk, but I beg to assure him that whatever the Stock Exchange may make money out of they do not make money out of scares. That is the last thing they would desire to see, and from that point of view they desire to support everything that may prevent a scare in the country. On one point I thoroughly agreed with him, and that is when he spoke of the increase of the financial burdens. I feel that most keenly, and I feel it is the greatest danger at the present time. At the same time I cannot see that by interfering with the scheme which the right hon. Gentleman has now proposed what we can do to effect a permanent saving for the benefit of the taxpayers. What we would do would be to dislocate the whole of the machinery which he has spent three years in completing. I should like, as a humble Member of the Liberal Party, to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman in what I apprehend is the great success of his scheme. He has had a tremendously difficult task. I do not wish to say anything offensive, but the hon. Member for Leith Burghs referred to the efforts of two War Ministers on the other side, and those efforts did not meet with very conspicuous success. I can only say that as far as my judgment goes the right hon. Gentleman seems to be working with the experts on his side, and to be thinking out a really thorough plan by which every unit of our defensive forces shall be coordinated into one whole. Before the different parts of the Army seemed to exist without much relation one to another or to the effect which the Army as a whole ought to produce; nor were the relations between the Army and the Navy as closely co-ordinated as we should wish to see them. One of the greatest advantages of the three years' administration of my right hon. Friend is that these matters have been dealt with. The Army at present is not redundant in any part. The cavalry, the artillery, the Army Service Corps, and the various units of the Army have all been thought out in detail, and so weighed one with another that there is no superfluity in any of them. It is urged that my right hon. Friend ought to have made more reductions in cost. I should have been only too pleased if he had been able to do so. He has reduced the cost to a certain extent; and if he has got a more efficient Army and at the same time succeeded in reducing the cost to a small extent, he has earned the gratitude of the nation. My hon. Friend the Member for Salford urged several complaints against my right hon. Friend; but as far as I could understand the burden of his speech the main point seemed to be that a War Minister was an unnecessary luxury. I am entirely with him in the wish to get rid of all militarism, of all War Ministers, and of all armies if it could be done. If it were part of a general world scheme, by which every nation would undertake not to arm any of its men, I should be the first to vote for a reduction of 10,000 or 100,000 men. But unfortunately that is not a practical position. My right hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk asked as to the time: We are at peace with everybody, and surely, if we are ever to reduce the Army, why not reduce it now? Certainly we are at peace; but the general political situation is not such that we cannot see any possible cloud. Have hon. Members forgotten that during the last year a European Treaty, sanctified by the signatures of I do not know how many Powers, has been suddenly torn up, and that the question of peace or war has literally hovered in the balance? The balance now seems to be inclining to the side of peace; but I deny that the horizon is unclouded, or that this is the time, of all others, at which we should reduce our striking force. Another point to which one might refer, but in regard to which one must be very guarded in one's references, is the position of our great dependency—India. The position there is not so peaceful as one could wish, and an emergency might occur—we hope it never will—in which it would be most undesirable that we should have just reduced our Army, and not only have reduced it by 10,000 men in the middle of a thought-out scheme, but reduced it in a way which would lead absolutely to dislocation.
I should like to refer to two or three points affecting the work of the permanent staff of the Territorial Army, in regard to which great inconvenience is being caused, at any rate, to those units with which I am personally acquainted. The first is the system of re-engagement of men who originally signed on for one year only.
Are these members of the staff who sign on for one year?
No; but the permanent staff of instructors have to see to the re-engagements, and, at present, under the new system—I think against the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman—the permanent staff have to bring these men before an officer before their re-engagement can can be completed.
I do not think it would be in order for the hon. Member to discuss that particular point on this Vote.
Then I will reserve my remarks for another occasion.
I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton upon his speech, and especially upon his concluding remarks, in which he touched, with great tact, on a very difficult question, which must be in the minds of everybody. While I thoroughly agree with the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Norfolk in deploring the enormous expenditure of the country, I would point out that this reduction of 10,000 men would result in a saving of only some £400,000 or £500,000 a year. It would be out of order to pursue that point; I would only suggest that it is not in that direction that the well-meant efforts of the right hon. Baronet should be directed. In his desire to reduce the Army the right hon. Baronet went back to the days of Oliver Cromwell. The precautions taken by Oliver Cromwell, however, to prevent an invasion on the coast of Norfolk would be absolutely useless if taken now. The right hon. Baronet seems to have forgotten that in those days boats depended on sails, and that, the wind, as well as the valiant efforts of the men of Norfolk, was against the landing. Nowadays the wind is of no account, and the only protection against the invader would be the very men whom the right hon. Baronet desires to reduce. Reference was also made to the Solent. But I am informed that the forts on which the right hon. Baronet relied have been removed by the Secretary of State.
There is a little confusion in this matter. There was an idea at one time that there should be land defences at Portsmouth as well as defences against attack by sea; that is to say, that there should be guns round Portsmouth pointing inland to defeat the invader who had taken possession of the whole island. But it was very properly thought by a Committee which sat in 1900 that that was a superfluity, and that if the enemy were in possession of the whole island it would not matter very much whether Portsmouth was defended against them or not.
I quite accept the correction; I do not pose as a military authority, and that was the information given me. But at Portsmouth there are valuable dockyards and arsenals, and I should have thought that if an enemy were in possession of the country it would be worth while defending those.
was understood to say that in such an event the arsenals would be blown up.
I should have thought it would be a saving of money to try to keep the enemy out rather than to destroy the arsenals and dockyards. The hon. Member for North Salford made an extraordinary assertion, to which I refer not because I doubt the hon. Member's sincerity, but because it represents the feeling which animates many hon. Members on the other side, and will induce them, if not to support this reduction, at any rate to think in their hearts that it ought to be carried. They are perfectly sincere, but they do not understand the question. They have an idea that a reduction in the number of men will save the working classes a certain amount of money. But the working classes do not pay for the men; in fact, they reap the benefit.
How does the hon. Baronet mean the working classes do not pay; the cost comes out of taxation?
It would be out of order to discuss how the taxes are allocated; but the hon. Member must be aware that, if a man does not drink or smoke. and his income is less than 30s. a week, he pays practically no taxation at all. That is the foundation of my argument that the working classes do not pay for the Army. The hon. Member also admitted that the security of this Empire rests on force.
I quoted the hon. Member for Leith Burghs.
And the hon. Member agreed with that view. The hon. Member for Leith Burghs is often accurate in his ideas, especially when he disagrees with his friends on that side of the House, as I am glad to say he frequently does. The hon. Member, having made that admission, said that big commercial houses and people at large did not depend on force, but went to lawyers and settled their disputes in Court. But what would be the use of lawyers if there were no police to enforce the Orders of the Courts? What attention would be paid to the decree of a Judge if he had no means of enforcing it? It is force which gives power to the decree of a Judge. If we were all actuated by the highest and purest motives, and were determined to obey authority whenever it was set up, we might not want an armed force. But we are not. and never shall be.
I have not the slightest objection to an international police which should enforce the decisions of an arbitration tribunal.
That, surely, would be an armed force, because an international police would have to have some weapon. We know what happens with foreign people with revolvers; we had an instance at Tottenham recently. Such an international force without revolvers would be in a very awkward position. It would have to be an armed force, and that is what an army is. The hon. Gentleman alluded to the Alabama Arbitration, and said it was an example which showed force was unnecessary. But surely the United States would never have consented to arbitration unless they thought that we had the power to compel them to consent to arbitration or go to war. If we had been so weak that we could do nothing, they would have said: "We have nothing to do with your contention. You have to pay the money we demand, and if you do not we shall send over a force and take it." That seems to me to be the common-sense of the whole matter, and it is only because the hon. Gentleman regards human nature as better than it is—and that is entirely due to the goodness of his heart—that he argues in the way he does. The hon. Gentleman stated that the Czar had proposed arbitration. That is true; but the Czar afterwards went to war with Japan, and all that proves to those who have studied these matters that the future will only be a repetition of the past. It will be absolutely necessary that we should have an Army, and a strong Army.
The question, to my mind, is whether or not a reduction of 10,000 men can under any possible circumstances be justified. I do not believe it can. I believe that what we ought to do is to increase the Army by 30,000 or 40,000 men instead of reducing it by 10,000. Of that I have not any manner of doubt. A reduction in the Army carries with it a reduction in the reserves, and therefore in voting for a reduction of 10,000 men it must be well understood that hon. Members will be really voting for a larger reduction than appears on the face of the Amendment. Personally, I believe that if you had a force better and more efficient it would be better for everybody, and cheaper for the taxpayer. I believe you cannot get so efficient or so cheap a force as you can in the regular Army, and therefore I believe that if any reduction is to take place it should be in the other forces of the Crown, and not in the regular Army. I believe the regular Army set an example to the other forces, and, after all, they are the skeleton which you have to fill up if you go to war with another country. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman opposite is not going to move for a reduction in the garrisons abroad. It would be fatal in these days of swift communication by fast vessels to do so. It is all very well to say that Malta and other places are piotected by the Navy, but the Navy cannot be all over the world, seeing where transports with men on them are going to stop. Before we knew where we were we might have Malta garrisoned by a foe, and that would cost more in the end than would be caused by keeping an efficient and proper garrison at that station. It seems to me absolutely absurd after all that was gone through by our forefathers 200 or 300 years ago, and after acquiring all the possessions we now have, that we should for the sake of saving the cost of a few thousand men run these enormous risks. If we are to pursue this fatal policy, I should rather re- duce expenditure on the Civil Services and on education and other absurd things which will do us no good, but rather the reverse. [Cries of dissent.] I believe a very large number of people hold that view, although they have not the courage to say it. It is proper that the truth should be stated, even although it is unpopular.
I wish to ask one or two questions about horses. Of course the question of the reserve of horses is in a very much more difficult position now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. For instance, omnibus horses made the best- artillery and ammunition horses that could be obtained for South Africa, but unfortunately these omnibus horses no longer exist in any great numbers, and consequently the great reserve which the right hon. Gentleman had to depend upon is no longer available. There are at the present moment a large number of railway companies who own horses. The company of which I have the honour of being a director owns 2.800 horses, and of these 1,600 are in London. Some of them are heavier than would be useful in time of war, but we have a large number of van horses which would form a useful nucleus in time of war. I am on a small committee who manage the horses, and the other day I asked our head manager what happened in regard to the horses requisitioned by the Secretary of State for War, and he informed me that there was no increase in the number. I forget how many he told me there were, but I was astonished at the smallness of the number. I do not see any reason why we should not be very pleased to allow the right hon. Gentleman to requisition a larger number. Those horses are in very good condition, and I shall be glad to show them to the right hon. Gentleman if he cares to see them. They are very well kept, and I think the great number of them would be very useful in time of war. They are in sound condition and accustomed to stand about, and that is what is wanted. I throw out the suggestion in quite a friendly spirit to the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope he will consider it. There was some discussion as to where the reserve horses were to be placed, and the hon. Member for one of the divisions of Norfolk said he would like to have one about his estate and farm. No doubt he would make an extremely good horse-master, but it must not be forgotten that a great number of people in this country, having taken a horse from the War Office, would say: "We must get as much out of that horse as we can," and they would put it to all sorts of purposes. Unless there is very careful supervision of the people entrusted with the horses in order to see that they are kept in good condition and properly treated the right hon. Gentleman might find that all he had done was to provide a good number of people with a useful animal, and when the time of war came it would be worthless. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is done in Germany."] We are not in Germany. In that country there is a tremendous system of inspection of everything. In this case, unless there is an efficient system of inspection, the system would fail. [An Hon. Member: "What about farmers?"] I do not say a word against farmers, but I know that many of them are under-horsed and that they work their horses very hard. This system would enable many farmers to obtain horses which did not belong to them, and they might be put to such work as would really render them inefficient for war purposes. A horse for war purposes must be fresh and in good condition. It is no use taking a horse in a half-worn-out condition and expecting it to undergo the work of war. You have to feed the horse on good corn before he goes out. It is well known that we got a lot of horses during the South African War which were of no use. I heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman on the 4th of this month, and, alluding to horses, he said:—
We are adding 200 each year until we get 700.
It is not a very large amount.
It is quite substantial.
It is substantial because it is more than one. If the right hon. Gentleman had mentioned 500, and said he would continue adding that number for five years, until he had 2,500, I think he would have had a valuable reserve. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will make his scheme successful. Possibly the reason why the right hon. Gentleman did not propose a larger reserve of horses was that he wished to guard expenditure. If the experiment is successful I hope he will not pay too much attention to hon. Members below the Gangway, but will allow the number to be increased. Another point is in regard to the price paid for horses, and the age at which they are bought. I believe that the regulations say that no horse should be bought under four years of age. I believe sometimes it is put as high as five years. The minimum is four years, and the maximum price £40. I am informed that foreign countries buy horses at three years old and pay £42 to £45 for them. They take them a year younger and give £2 to £5 apiece more for them. If that is so, that would account for the difficulty of getting good horses, because a horse breeder would far sooner sell an animal at three years old and not run all the risks of the ailments which sometimes set in in the case of young horses. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take this matter into his consideration. It is a subject deserving of consideration, and I hope that he will bear it in mind.
I should not intervene in this debate if I did not think that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government do not realise the very great feeling of uneasiness amongst their own followers in this House and the country on the question of armaments. I should like to associate myself with every word said in the tribute of praise given to the right hon. Gentleman for his administrative work. We all admire his indomitable energy, his never-failing enthusiasm, his ever-present courtesy and optimism. We understand the theory of the Constitution to be that a civilian is placed over each of these two great spending Departments in order, from the broad outlook of the statesman, to check and scrutinise and keep within control the demands of the experts, which are legitimate from the point of view of the expert, which is necessarily a narrow one. We are afraid that the right hon. Gentleman, with his great scientific attainments, his power of clear thinking, and his enthusiasm for reform, is in danger of becoming an expert himself. I was the other day reading an account of two Scotch ladies who were discussing the virtues of the new Minister. One said, "He is a pretty man, and what is more, he has the beautiful Gaelic"; and the other lady replied, "Maybe he has, but has he the Gospel?" I am afraid that represents our attitude of mind towards the right hon. Gentleman. We are quite willing to admit that he is a very "pretty man," and we give him credit for possessing the beautiful English and German, but we feel a certain amount of uneasiness because of his speeches outside this House, and we doubt whether he is upholding the old Liberal tradition of "Peace, Retrenchment and Reform." The right hon. Gentleman seems to hold the worn-out theory that if you want peace you must be prepared for war. I prefer the attitude of our late lamented leader, "That it is vain to seek peace
"If you do not ensue it. I hold that the growth of armaments is a great danger to the peace of the world. A policy of huge armaments keeps alive and stimulates and feeds the belief that force is the best, if not the only solution of international differences. It is a policy that tends to inflame old sores and create new sores, and I submit to yon, that as the principle of peaceful arbitration gains ground it becomes one of the highest tasks of a statesman to adjust these armaments to the newer and happier condition of things."
These words were uttered at the Albert Hall on December 21st, 1905. If the feeling of uneasiness exists it is very largely due to certain phrases which frequently occur in the right hon. Gentleman's speeches. I mean such phrases as "a nation in arms," and unnecessary references to other Powers and allusions to army corps equal to the army of Germany. We note that the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for War, has given utterance in this House to profoundly sound sentiments. In a debate on the 2nd of March, 1908, the Leader of the Opposition said:—
"They say that the Naval and Military policy depends upon the Foreign Office. The Foreign policy of the present Government is a policy of goodwill. It was found practically embodied in the agreement with Russia, and, therefore, you ought, it is said, to find in your national Budget some reflection of it in pounds, shillings and pence."
He said that there was no greater fallacy than the saying that "armaments and policy are mutually interdependent." The Minister of War in reply said:—
"I believe the right hon. Gentleman said the counter proposition was that treaties were not to be taken into account, and that you are really no better off when you have them because you cannot rely on them. To my mind that is an even greater fallacy. I agree you can never wholly rely on treaties. Nevertheless, they may and do make a profound change for the better. You can never, in dealing with the affairs of the British Empire, provide for every possible contingency. What you have to do is to deal with the most likely contingencies, which depend upon what your treaties are and your relations with other Powers so that it may well be that a risk which might at one time be final has ceased to he any serious risk at all because of those treaties and relations."
The country is beginning to ask itself when are we going to see practical results? There are many who are anxious that we should come to some mutual arrangement with other Great Powers—say with Germany—with regard to the Navy, but I do not think it can be done at present. If we cannot attain a mutual agreement it is the duty of some nation to give a lead. At the time of the Free Trade agitation it was laid down by Sir Robert Peel that the proper way to fight protective tariffs was by free imports. That has been successful. The only way to fight enormous armaments is to go in for a reduction of our own armaments.
who was very imperfectly heard in the Gallery, was understood to say: I think that our horse buyers should be permitted to give larger prices when it is advisable. The German is always in the English market, and he is always in advance of the English buyer.
There is nothing more hurtful to horses than the disease of influenza. It attacks horses, and does quite as much damage to them as it does to human beings. Indeed, it is one of the greatest scourges. If you provide for the accommodation of those horses yourself you can in case of sickness isolate them, you can have plenty of ventilation, and you can keep them in good condition and keep them fit and well in barrack until you require to use them. At the present moment there are only 7,000 horses for 11,000 men. Are 7,000 horses supposed to be a sufficient establishment for 11,000 men? If so, how are you going to make up the shortage in time of war The Secretary of State proposes to replenish these numbers by 200 more That is a paltry business What are you going to save by placing these extra horses out with farmers? You are going to save their feeding; but what is the cost to feed a horse in the Army? You have the barracks where you can provide the stabling, you have the men to exercise them, and you have the veterinary staff to look after them. Are you going to run the risk of sending these horses out to farmers, who will use them, who will hunt them, or let them out at two guineas a day? They will be badly fed, irregularly ridden, irregularly worked, and not by any means kept in a fit condition; and what do you save? At the very most 6s., 7s., or 8s. a week. It will be no good, and it can serve no useful purpose. We must of course regard that part of the scheme as purely experimental, and I think it will be a failure altogether. I hope it will be tried only on a very small scale, because, as I say, I believe it will end in failure.
I can corroborate the views put forward by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down. Some people profess themselves to be quite satisfied with the condition of the cavalry and artillery horses. Considering the money paid for them, they may be good value no doubt, but I am inclined to think that the very large percentage of the horses which you get are of the weedy class. Now, while we are on this question I would like to know if any serious attention is being given by the Veterinary Department in connection with the cavalry and artillery to prevent the importation of diseases from other countries. I would like to know what precaution the War Office is taking in this matter. Let me give an instance of what occurred in my own Constituency. We asked the War Office for an inquiry into what occurred there, and the War Office by refusing it really proved that we had a strong case. They introduced into Waterford what was known as the South African disease. I prefer to call it the War Office disease. The result was that our affairs were dislocated, race meetings were prohibited, and the whole trade of the country was upset, and although I cannot hold the right hon. Gentleman responsible for the way in which the War Office acted towards my constituents, I say of his Department that they acted in a manner which I cannot find Parliamentary language strong enough to characterise, but which I may say reflects very little credit upon a big Department, and inflicted great hardship upon the poor people.
Having introduced this disease, they placed upon the ratepayers the duty of stopping it. We had to bear the cost of slaughtering a considerable number of animals, and it ran to a very considerable sum in my Constituency, and the authors of this trouble never assisted us one iota, and put upon the local rates the whole cost of exterminating the disease which was introduced by their own carelessness. I want to know what steps have been taken since that occurrence to prevent the introduction of disease into these countries. The right hon. Gentleman and his officials seem to treat the matter quite casually and as something that might occur any day. As far as I am concerned, and as far as my Constituency is concerned, we have every reason to complain of the way in which we were treated, and I certainly am entitled to ask that steps be taken to prevent a recurrence of these matters in future.
I am not going to support the motion for the reduction of the Army by 10,000 men, but I wish to point out to my right hon. Friend a way in which he might reduce the Army by 500 or 1,000 men without in any way interfering with its fighting efficiency. The men I refer to are some of the Royal Engineers, and especially those of the survey and telegraph companies. The old system was to keep all these trained troops in time of peace for use in time of war, and to try and use them in time of peace in some civil employment. The modern idea, with which I believe my right hon. Friend is entirely in sympathy, is to use the civilian as far as possible, and, if possible, in time of war. The duty of the Survey and of the Telegraph in India, where we constantly have small wars, is entirely carried out by civilians. I do hope my right hon. Friend will make inquiry into the India system and see whether he cannot, with advantage to the Army and with great reduction of expenses, get rid of these Survey companies, and at least of some of the Telegraph companies. There is not the slightest reason why the Survey companies should be fighting men any more than that any Member of the Territorial Force is a fighting man. And I believe that from the present civilians of the Ordnance Survey Department he could enlist for time of war most able and highly trained Survey companies, with trained officers and men, and, of course, he could get all his equipment entire, and of the best description, for war. I would ask my right hon. Friend to look into this question, and ascertain the number of those Survey companies that went to South Africa and took part in the war there. He will be surprised, I think, at the small number that went, compared with the number of civilian members of the Ordnance Survey Department that went out. I am quite aware it would be very difficult to do away with all of the telegraph companies, because some of them have to go with mounted troops, and have to be trained in such a way as to be able to move with the cavalry. I am referring to the great mass of the telegraph artificers that have to follow after the Army and lay the lines of communications. Without any trouble I believe my hon. Friend could knock off, if necessary, from 800 to 1,000 men in this direction.
We do not take in the Ordnance Survey. They are on another Vote altogether.
Then they are paid for by the Civil authorities? If that is so, I am very glad to hear that. They are certainly on Vote A, page 19. There you will find 350 men of the Survey companies and 830 of all ranks of the Telegraph company; whether that comes out of the Civil Estimates or out of the Military Estimates I do not quite understand, but they are here shown as part of the Army.
It is something satisfactory if the right hon. Gentleman will look into it, because I have some doubt that the situation is as he says it is. I think there is some allowance made or something of that sort which does not quite support his view. If these are civilians why should they not form part of the Territorial Reserve Force, and not be mixed up with Vote A. I think they are really or mainly paid from the Army Votes. Otherwise, why should they be put in Vote A? If my right hon. Friend will look into this matter, and follow out in some way the excellent example of the Government of India, where the whole of the Survey is run by the civilian authorities with great success, I shall be glad. In India I have seen civilian telegraph clerks up in the fighting line and Survey officers in front of the fighting line, and they are entirely civilian, and only come into use when the Army requires their services. With regard to the 200 additional horses to which reference has been made, I think hon. Gentlemen opposite have raised unnecessary difficulties in suggesting that they will not be properly looked after by the farmer. After the war a good many horses came back and were distributed among the yeomanry, and those men had these horses for three or four years, and had only to bring them up for annual training, the Government thereby saving the £5 they used to pay to the yeomanry for each horse. I would suggest to my right hon. Friend that these horses might in that way with advantage be used to the benefit of the Army funds. They could be specially used, it appears to me, in the case of mounted officers either of the yeomanry or infantry regiments, where there is great expense and difficulty experienced in mounting these officers. It is often a great difficulty to get officers to join on account of the question of the horses, and I think this 200 and in future 700 horses might with advantage be used for that purpose.
I hope I may venture to make two or three suggestions, to the right hon. Gentleman on the question of horses. I think if the right hon. Gentleman could find a way to give farmers £40 for three-year-old horses in the month of September or October they would be at four years old calculated to be of service. I think if he will let it be known in the country that horses of a certain size would be bought by the Government at that price he would find that he would have no difficulty in buying horses at it for the Army. I think that the farmers could afford to breed them at that price, and that the Government would have the advantage of having a better animal unbroken, and which therefore had not been spoilt. So far as my own experience goes of horses of this kind, I do not ever remember a horse being a crib-biter when it was three years old, and I do not think that they ever become so at that age. If the right hon. Gentleman is so short of horses. I venture to suggest that that would be a. solution of his difficulty, if he would let the farmers know. I would beg him to remember this, and I think it is a very important point, that a horse for Army purposes that has got a little pony blood is-more valuable, and worth more than an animal that has not got any pony blood. The pony blood means hardness, stamina and brains, and, from my own experience, I am sure that it makes a great deal of difference.
The hon. Member for Salford said that many of our people have no homes, and could hardly keep body and soul together. I make that a present to the right hon. Gentlemen opposite after 60 years of so-called Free Trade. The hon. Member also asked if we wanted to kill people. I do not think we want to kill anybody; but we have so much in the world which is desirable to other people, or which other people think is desirable and want, that they are apt to take the risk of killing some of us in order to obtain it. That is where the trouble comes in. An hon. Gentleman said just now that "force is no remedy," but as a matter of fact force rules everything in this world. You cannot name anything which is not ruled by force. Hon. Gentlemen on the Liberal side may think they can do very well without force, but they cannot, if it is only to keep Suffragettes out of their meetings. An hon. Member mentioned Mr. Andrew Carnegie as being a great advocate for freedom. I think it is the same Andrew Carnegie who employed Pinkerton's detectives to shoot down workmen on strike.
The hon. Member for Sleaford who moved the reduction said that the men and officers in the regular Army necessarily wanted to have war because they were in the Army. I am sure that he made a great mistake in that, a tremendous mistake. The men in the Army most distinctly do not want to have war. It is all nonsense to suppose that they do, especially if they know what it is, and if the hon. Gentleman had been in the Army and in a war he would know that the suggestion is perfectly absurd. I cannot put it in any other way. Then he said we must rely upon the friendliness of other nations, and he especially referred to Germany. He said that Germany was very friendly with us, and had no object in conquering us. We know that Germany was very unfriendly with us during the Boer war, and we know on very high authority that a great number of people in Germany were very unfriendly towards us a short time ago. We know that a leading Socialist speaker said in the German Parliament that the increase of the German fleet was directed wholly and solely against Great Britain, and that all the other reasons for it were all humbug. We were also told that Germany's future lies upon the water, and that the trident must be in Germany's fist. All our harbours have been carefully studied, and there is hardly a county in England in which there is not a German Intelligence officer, and yet all the time this country is playing at soldiers. I should not have referred to this if the hon. Member who moved the Amendment had not tried to make us believe that he would entirely depend upon the friendliness of other countries.
I did not say that for a moment.
The real fact of the matter is this, and you cannot get over it. Germany is a great country, and she became great after the best portions of the world were taken up. I quite agree that if she had an extra piece of land like Canada or Australia to which her people could go, then we might live at peace with them; but the German has no Colony where the white man can rear a healthy family, and the Germans themselves complain that when their people emigrate they go to British or American Colonies, and are lost to the German Empire for ever. That is the difficulty, and no diplomacy can get over it. No diplomacy can get over the fact that Germany must expand or decline. That is why I always venture when I get a chance to warn people of the danger that we run of invasion, and that is why we must have a force in this country that can deal with a force of from 70,000 to 150,000 men who may be sent to invade it. People try to believe that all nations are so peaceful; but really if they look back in history they will see for themselves that peace has never been anything but an interval between wars, and we in this country, whatever excellent hon. Gentlemen may think, if we are caught napping we shall be conquered. That is the danger which many hon. Gentlemen are unable to see, and I am only saying this to point out to them that Germany is within about 18½ hours' steam from Hull by tramp steamer. Therefore we must not only have a strong Navy, but we must have a sufficient force in this country to be able to defeat 70,000, 100,000, or 150,000 of picked troops in case they succeed in getting over.
We are about to go to a Division on this Motion for the reduction of 10,000 men, and I would venture to point out that, although many of us have listened with the greatest attention to the arguments of those who are in favour of this reduction, they have failed to make in any degree a strong case. When we proceed to the Division I hope that very few will support the reduction on the grounds which have been brought before us this afternoon. One of the last speakers, the hon. and gallant Member for Pembrokeshire, proposed to start a reduction by cutting away a large number of the very highest troops that we have got—the Royal Engineers. That suggestion is one which no part of this House would be likely for a moment to entertain. They take longer to develop and to train for their specific work, they are more difficult in many respects to replace than any other troops. We have been accustomed to hear them described at Aldershot as being good inside and out. Their training and their intellectual powers are both very great, and to begin with the Royal Engineers seems a most extraordinary proposition for the hon. Gentleman to make. A previous speaker on the other side made an extraordinary suggestion with regard to the Minister for War, as I think. His idea is that we have in this country a Minister for War who is a civilian in order that he may frustrate the carrying out of the views of those who know something of war. It seemed to me an extraordinary suggestion that our having a civilian Minister of War rested upon a view of that kind. Certainly I do not think that that is the view taken by many hon. Members. The reason why we have a civilian Minister of War is that in the Army there are all sorts of business matters which we think a civilian is better qualified to deal with than a soldier, but certainly it is not in order that he should frustrate, thwart, and hinder the opinions of experts on the subject of our defence, as the hon. Member seemed to think. Then I am very sorry the hon. Member for West Salford said our soldiers were expensively fed. I should deeply regret that it should go out to the country that our soldiers are expensively fed. That is not the opinion of the soldiers themselves.
I think discussion of this matter had better wait till the Vote on which it arises is reached.
The same hon. Gentleman spoke of the view that we should do without an Army altogether. I should like to have heard what the Foreign Secretary would have to say about that. How could he carry out, as he has most successfully done during the last three years, Foreign Office work unless we had an efficient Army and Navy? It is only because the other countries of the world realise that we are strong enough to protect ourselves and the rest of our Empire that the right hon. Gentleman is able successfully to negotiate with foreign countries. He himself has said within the last few months that that was the case. He says we must have an efficient Army and we must have a most efficient Navy, and if the hon. Member for Salford and the hon. Member for Sleaford were to have their way they would simply cut from under the feet of the Foreign Minister all power to carry out the work which he has in hand. The hon. Member described our Army as a bloated armament, and it is difficult to realise how a small Expeditionary Force, such as the right hon. Gentleman is now reducing our Army to as a result of the reduction of nearly 30,000 men, however efficient it may be, could be in any sense described as a bloated armament. The strongest objection to the Amendment is that it would clearly upset the symmetry of the right hon. Gentleman's undertaking. Where are these 10,000 men to come from? I have no desire in the least to suggest that any hon. Member is lacking in ordinary patriotism, yet it is difficult to reconcile with such proposals the most elementary realisation of the ordinary claims of patriotism. I am afraid many hon. Gentlemen who make these propositions and who propose to support them realise in their heart of hearts that in the main the people of this country will not tolerate their being undefended, and they know they can sleep comfortably and safely in their beds, because, after all, common sense will have the upper hand.
It was rather amusing to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norfolk taking us back to the time of Cromwell in order to find an argument in support of the Amendment. It is not necessary to do that and to tell us that Cromwell did not lose his head. We know quite well who lost his head at the time of the Regicide, Cromwell. The right hon. Gentleman was still on very unsafe ground when he moved forward from the time of Cromwell to the time of the Crimean War. Has he forgotten that at that time the troops were armed with the Brown Bess, which was a smooth-bore gun, with which the soldiers might hit a haystack at 100 yards, though what it would hit at 200 yards nobody knew on earth, least of all the man who-fired it? At that time the ships of war were only to a very small extent moving under steam. In the main they were still sailing vessels, so that to compare the condition of things at the time of the Crimean War with the present day, when even the savage tribes of our Colonies and other parts of the world against whom our expeditionary forces have from time to time operated, are armed with rifles very often of very considerable precision, in the use of which they have acquired considerable skill, is altogether beside the mark. When we come to the question of moving forces from one part of the world to another, clearly at present, when there is immense speed and immense power of transport, it seems altogether absurd to try and draw any sort of parallel between the expenditure at the time of the Crimean War and the expenditure which is now necessary. The right hon. Gentleman said when the Crimean War was over expenditure was at once reduced almost to a normal figure, and why should not that be done now? But the conditions are very different. For these reasons and for many more, I hope practically very few will be found willing to follow the hon. Member into the Lobby.
Question put. Amendment negatived and Vote agreed to.
Resolution reported: "That a sum, not exceeding £8,527,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the expense of the pay of His Majesty's Army (including Army Reserve) at Home and Abroad (exclusive of India), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1910." (Vote 1, page 25.)
Question proposed: "That this House doth agree with the committee in the said Resolution."
, in moving to reduce the vote by a million pounds, said: I should like to explain that, apparently, I did not understand the last Vote which was put and shouted "Aye" when I understand those who supported the reduction should have shouted "No." I move to reduce this Vote because I think we ought to set an example in reducing military expenditure. We are an island, quite protected by our powerful fleet, and if we cannot set an example for the reduction of armaments, who can? There is no country so safe as ourselves in the world. There is no country which has its chief population and centres of industry so well protected by Nature and by Naval forces. I have no doubt that we have several million defenders of this country who would be ready to join our standards when required. Some people have suggested the possibility of a German invasion, but I am quite sure that nobody at headquarters is in the least bit nervous, because if there was any nervousness they would have taken steps to inform themselves of the means of horsing our troops, our artillery, and our store wagons. I asked the right hon. Gentleman a while ago the number of horses in the country, apart from those engaged in agriculture, the number of which I knew from the agricultural le-turns, and how many there were 10 years ago, and he said he had no such information in his office. If there were the least nervousness that information would have been available. At the last moment the right hon. Gentleman has started the census which ought to have been in the possession of the House for the last 10 years. There are two million horses in the country engaged in agriculture alone.
The question of horses does not arise on this Motion.
I was merely using that by the way. Now, with reference to the difficulty of getting officers, I say that we can get a great many more if we reduce the salaries. The salaries vary from £120 to £4,000. You can get more than enough of the best men in the country for much lower salaries than these. There are thousands of clerks who think themselves lucky if they get £78 a year, and then to tell me that £120 a year is not enough to live upon is absurd. The salaries of officers would be ample if they were reduced by one-half, and if that were done we should probably get a better class of officer than we have now.
The only way to get a proper supply of officers is to compel everybody to go through the ranks, then the men would know that the officers commanding them knew something of their business; then the men would all have been workers when they became officers, and poor men would not mind joining the Army. In that way you would get men who would think an ultimate salary of £250 a year something on which they would be quite rich. One of the causes of the difficulties we have is that we pay enormous sums of money to the officers and that the pay is reinforced by what we give as pensions. We pay from £120 for a young lieutenant up to £4,000 a year for the head of a department, and we give them enormous pensions.
The question of pensions does not arise here. There is another Vote for that.
I apologise. What I want to show is how the Army can be improved by a reduction in expenditure. Experience shows that extravagance and inefficiency go together. If you reduce the amount of money the War Office has to spend they will begin to think of how they can economise, and then we shall begin to think of fresh expenditure. But when these enormous salaries are paid you get a class of man who wishes to live at the rate of perhaps £l,000 a year. [Cries of "Divide."] Hon. Members shout divide. They are hurrying a Liberal Government into extravagance, and when a Liberal Member protests they kick up a row.
We do not want it three times over.
The only way to get an efficient Army is to reduce the expenditure. Therefore I move to reduce the amount by £1,000,000.
Vote agreed to.
Half Pay, Etc., for Officers
Motion made and question proposed: "That the House agree with the Committee that £1,762,000 be granted for the expenses of rewards, half pay, retired pay, widows, pensions, and other non-effective charges for the year ending 31st March, 1910."
I wish to reduce that amount by £100. If you look at our retired list you will see that we have got 12 retired generals at from £900 to £l,000 a year, 205 at from £600 to £1,000 a year, 300 retired colonels at £455 a year, 1,416 lieutenant-colonels at from £250 to £450. Altogether we have retired on half pay 6,000 officers, averaging about £300 a year. If they averaged £100 a year if would be quite enough.
Vote agreed to.
Motion made and question proposed:—"That a sum not exceeding £1,868,000 be granted to His Majesty to defray the expenses of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals of out-pensions, rewards for distinguished services, widows' pensions, and other non effective charges for warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and men, etc., for the year ending 31st March. 1910."
Vote agreed to.
Motion made and question proposed:—"That a sum not exceeding £158,000 be granted to His Majesty to defray the exposes of civil superannuation, compensation, compassionate allowances, and gratuities, and of payments under the Workmen's Compensation Acts."
Vote agreed to.
Supply
CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE.
[The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Mr. CALDWELL) in the Chair.]
(IN THE COMMITTEE.)
Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, 1908–9
The sum of £17,380 (Supplementary)was voted to defray the expenses of prisons in England and Wales and the Colonies.
Motion made and question proposed:—"That a sum not exceeding £11,890 (Supplementary) be granted to His Majesty to defray the cost of the purchase of a picture for the National Gallery."
I should like the Secretary to the Treasury to explain the note to this Vote. It says that this expenditure will be subject to the audit of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but the unexpended balance, if any, will not be surrendered. How does it happen that this exception is allowed in the case of the National Gallery. I always understood that under the Exchequer and Audit Act all balances have to be surrendered. This practice does not tend to economy, and I should like an explanation on this point.
This exception is of long standing, and it was made in favour of this particular Vote about ten years ago. It was found that very often there was not enough money in hand to purchase valuable works when the opportunity arose without having a special Vote, and consequently arrangements were made that the National Gallery trustees should be allowed to accumulate money from year to year in order that they might be able to purchase a particular work of art. They are allowed for this purpose to accumulate surpluses from year to year which they use as opportunities arise.
Is this practice statutory or only customary?
I think it is statutory.
Vote agreed to.
Motion made and question proposed:—"That a sum not exceeding £1,308 4s. 10d. (Excesses) be granted to His Majesty to defray the expenses of the Civil Service and Revenue Department."
Is this the Excess Vote.
Yes.
I asked in the Bill Office, and they said it was not printed.
It has been printed for several days. This Vote arises in connection with the expenditure of the Select Committee. There are appropriations in excess of the whole amount of this expenditure, but only a proportion of those appropriations come up to-day, the rest having been surrendered to the Exchequer. These excess Votes have been passed by the Public Accounts Committee, and in accordance with the ordinary procedure they are reported to the House and brought to the notice of the Committee in order that the accounts for 1907–8 may be finally closed.
Vote agreed to. Resolutions to be reported tomorrow (11th March). Committee to sit again tomorrow.
The House resumed.
The DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. EMMOTT) in the chair.
Supply [3rd March]
[Report.]
Order read. Postponed Resolution considered—"That a supplementary sum not exceeding £100.000 be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1909, for contributions in aid of expenses under the Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905."
I beg to move a reduction in the amount of this Vote by £100. In doing so I desire to say that hon. Members sitting on the Labour Benches, in criticising the administration of the Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905, do not do so from any personal motives. The reason I move this reduction is that there has been no reply to the complaints raised in Committee in certain important particulars as to the way the Unemployed Workmen Act has been carried out. We consider that this Act has not been administered in the way it ought to have been.
And, it being a quarter-past eight of the clock, further proceeding was postponed, without question put, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 4.
Fair Wages in Government Contracts
called attention to the Fair Wages Clause in Government Contracts and its administration; and moved, "That, in the opinion of the House, the Fair Wages Clause in Government contracts should be so amended as to provide that the contractor shall, under penalty, pay to all the workmen in his employ not less than the minimum standard rate of wages recognised by trade societies in the district where such men are employed, and shall observe the recognised hours and proper conditions of labour; and if there shall be no such standard rate of wages or recognised hours and proper conditions of labour in such district the contractor shall pay to such workmen not less than the minimum standard rate of wages recognised by trade societies customarily executing such class of work in the nearest district, and observe the recognised hours and proper conditions of labour prevailing in respect of the particular trade in the nearest district in which such men are employed; also, that the contractor shall be prohibited from subletting any portion of his contract, except where the Department concerned specially allows the sub-letting of such special portions of the work as could not be produced or carried out by the contractor in the ordinary course of his business; and any such sub-contractor shall be subject to the same conditions as the contractor."
In moving the Resolution which stands in my name, I desire in the first place to say that I speak not only on behalf of the party with which I am immediately associated, but also in the name, and on behalf of, the Trade Union group in this House. I also realise that we have only got a short time for the discussion of this subject, and I hope to set a commendable example of brevity to those who may follow me. I desire also to say on behalf of myself and my colleagues how much we appreciate the action of the First Commissioner of Works which he took with respect to a certain contractor, as announced to the House in the early part of this week. Our desire would be that each Government Department should act in a similar manner with their contractors. If that were so, probably the necessity of moving the Resolution which stands on the Order Paper in my name would not exist.
I think it is well that we should cast our minds back as to the causes which resulted in this House passing the Fair Wages Resolution of the year 1891. I do not think that anyone would gainsay the fact that it was because of the disclosures as to the evils which resulted from unbridled competition for Governmental work. This was due in many instances to the fact that the low wages the contractors paid to unskilled men resulted in skilled workmen being unable to accept employment. The results were as I have stated—inefficient work, because a very poor class of workmen were employed. In 1895 the present Prime Minister, in a speech delivered to a deputation which waited upon him with respect to the administration of this particular Fair Wages Resolution, stated:— The sentiment contained in that declaration of the Prime Minister is of an excellent character. It sets up an ideal that is in harmony with the Resolution which I have now the honour of moving. May I express the hope that the opinion of the Prime Minister is still his opinion, and that it is also the opinion of those Gentlemen whom I see sitting on the Front Treasury Bench. If the Prime Minister still adheres to the ideal which he set up, he has not the power to give effect to it by the acceptance of my Resolution. Might I suggest that there is no unfair competition or sweating conditions when architects, lawyers, or other professional gentlemen are engaged to do work for the nation? Nor do you ask for competitive tenders for the position of Cabinet Minister! There is no sweating there, except a sweating anxiety on the part of certain people as to whether they are going to get a portfolio or not. The present Fair Wages Resolution has also been of much benefit to fair employers as well as to workmen; but there has been a lack of co-ordination in the various Government Departments as to its administration. We desire that the fair wages clause in the Government contracts should cover hours and conditions as well as wages. We desire that each Department should insist upon the fulfilment of the conditions of each contract, and so prevent unscrupulous employers going into villages where labour is unorganised, or into the smaller industrial centres near to our great towns and cities, and that the wages and conditions to be observed should be those of the particular trade in the nearest district to which such men are employed. With respect to my complaint as to the lack of several Government Departments in failing to enforce the fair wages clause as it at present exists, might I direct the attention of the House to the fact that my hon. Friend the Senior Member for Newcastle, by a series of questions to the Secretary to the Admiralty, raised a question as to whether fair wages were being paid or not in the Elswick works of Messrs. Armstrong, Whitworth, and Co. Notwithstanding that those questions have been repeated from time to time, commencing in March of last year, no later than to-day the Secretary to the Admiralty has made a statement that the question is still unsettled, still under consideration.
We say that there is surely a lack of administration when complaints are made by recognised Trade Unions that the fair wages clause is being evaded by a firm of such standing, and that there ought not to have been such a lapse of time in bringing that particular firm to book. We are of opinion that no matter what the standing of the firm may be, no matter what size the concern may be, they ought not to escape the obligations which they undertook in getting contracts any more than smaller firms. Our desire is also contained in the Resolution, that only fair firms should receive Government work, and that firms who have an unsavoury reputation should not be permitted to be upon the list of contractors so far as the Government are concerned. In my own particular industry, as a case in point; one large firm, which is in the position not only of making the steel but of building the ship, of making the engines and rolling the armour-plates—in fact, being self-contained so far as the whole iron and steel works are concerned, pay the trades union rates and observe the conditions right throughout, with the exception of work which they recently acquired.
I may say that during 25 years personal contact with the chief of the firm there was never a stoppage of work as between the union I represent and that firm. But the works they recently acquired had an evil reputation industrially, and so far also as the Truck Acts were concerned. It so happens that the son of the chief of the defunct firm has been appointed works manager in this recent acquisition, and I suppose there must be something in hereditary taint, because they will not employ union men there. As a matter of fact, when the place was restarted each workman who applied for employment was asked to sign a declaration that he would not join a trade union. As soon as those facts came to my knowledge I requested to see the chief of the firm, whom I met in London at his office. The first question was, "Do you represent my men?" I replied, "I am sorry I represent very few of them, but I do represent the workmen in your other works, to whom, by your unfair conditions of labour in your recently acquired works you are doing incalculable injury." I added: "I also speak on behalf of those employers who have lo compete with you for Government work, which they are unable to have because of the unfair wages and conditions which you are imposing upon your men." Consequently we say that the fair all-round employer is seriously handicapped if firms of this character are permitted to tender, and we think our Resolution is much more water- tight than that which appears in the name of the Postmaster-General. I understand that it would not be in order to discuss the amendment at this stage, but I adhere to the opinion that the resolution which stands in my name is more likely to achieve the threefold purpose which I have mentioned than is the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman. May I refer to what I think is the evil contained in the Amendment, and which my Resolution covers? If we take as an example the case of some of the more sweated industries, it may be that a firm which have a Government contract where a condition was imposed upon them of giving fair wages and fair conditions of employment, might distribute the work in such a way as would enable them to equalise the wage and also enable them to cut out fair employers. We seek to avoid that. We ask that those who are on the Government list should be fair all round. From time to time a great deal has been said with respect to our Colonies, and I venture to think from the method adopted by the Canadian Government, that our Government here might get some light and leading. The Canadian Government insists upon their Labour Department being a guide to the various Government Departments as to what constitutes fair wages and fair conditions. I shall not trouble the House by quoting from the Report of the Fair Wages Committee, but it is an interesting document to those who are concerned with this particular question. We could obtain from the Canadian Government and their methods a good deal of light and some leading. It is not the first time that we have followed the example of our Colonies, more especially as regards old age pensions, and to my mind the example that they have set us with respect to this is also an example worth following. Might I also submit that many of our large Corporations have a much more effectual fair wage clause in their contracts than has the Government. That brings me back to the point, that if the Government are prepared to follow the high ideals which were set up by the Prime Minister in the speech which I quoted, there would be nothing left for us to desire. My hope is that when the Postmaster-General speaks on behalf of the Government he will either accept our Resolution or amend his own in such a way as will be acceptable to myself and my colleagues, and at the same time put on the statutes of this House the essence of the ideal of the Prime Minister. I beg to move.
In seconding the Motion of my hon. Friend, I am glad to be able to say that we are speaking here to-night on behalf of the united party in the country. All sections of the Labour movement are agreed upon the desirability of an emendation of the present fair wage clause, and we feel that attitude is perfectly justified when we observe the amendment that is placed on the Paper in the name of the Postmaster-General. Undoubtedly the Government have come to realise with us as a matter of experience that the present clause is unsatisfactory, and that it should be amended; therefore we are able to anticipate a measure of support in that direction. I should like to call attention to one matter particularly connected with the trade with which I am closely associated. Under present conditions the Stationery Office attaches a separate clause to the ordinary fair wage clause of the Government. It stipulates in that separate clause that those contractors who receive Government work shall not give a preference either to Union or non-Union labour. Our experience has gone to prove that many employers interpret this as meaning that they are not to conduct their offices or houses as trade union establishments. On the other hand, it is read that contractors should not be permitted to give a preference as between the two classes. I hope the Government will give us some indication to-night that they are prepared to take action against firms who decline to admit the right of workpeople to be members of trade union organisations. I have latterly had experience of firms who I know, from actual experience, are unprepared to meet the accredited representatives of trade union organisations, however courteously they may be approached, and who have resolutely declined to allow any of their men to join a trade union. If the Stationery Office, which presumably acts under Government instructions, lay down the condition that a preference is not to be given as between the two classes, then I say they have no right to expect that any contractor shall be allowed to receive Government work unless he gives permission for his workmen to be members of trade union organisations. Personally, I am inclined to be of opinion that no clause will ever be perfectly satisfactory unless it is based upon strict trade union principles. However, you may frame the clauses, unless you have trade union labour employed by contractors, you have always a difficulty in knowing that the contractor is conforming to the Fair Wage Clause.
Therefore, it is only natural that we should seek to secure that all Government as well as municipal work should be directed into those channels where trade union labour should be engaged upon it. I know there will be put forward the idea that we have no right to legislate alone for trade unionists. I am prepared to admit that there is a great deal of force in that contention, but I submit that hon. Gentlemen are not entitled to assume that because workers are not members of the trade unions that they are therefore necessarily anti trade unionist. There are many reasons why some people elect to remain outside the ranks of organised labour. I have had the experience during the past few years, and know of many men who are trade unionists by conviction, but who are unable to join trade unions because of the fear of incurring the disfavour of their employers. My experience also goes to prove that there is no section of men in the country who are unwilling to accept the conditions secured by the endeavours of our trade union organisation. I believe that if the working classes as a whole could be polled on this matter we would find all in favour of trade union conditions, and the fact that they are not all members of trade unions is to be accounted for in many other directions.
As my hon. Friend stated, this clause is needed and strengthened on the lines we propose will not only be beneficial to the workmen engaged in Government work, but also in the interests of employers. I am bound to acknowledge here I know of many fair employers in my own particular industry. If we allow other firms not willing to be fair to receive Government contracts in course of time we compel those few employers to cease tendering for Government work, or otherwise to have recourse to the unfair methods by which those other firms have secured those contracts. I believe there is a strong and genuine desire on the part of many employers—I am sure that there is a growing social conscience desirous of knowing that work is performed under fair conditions. I am sure in the work we have undertaken we have the approval not only of the workmen, but of many of those employers. This matter has been agitated for many years by the organised workers of the country, at each annual Trade Union Congress, the Labour Party Congress, and other meetings of that character have all declared in favour of an amendment of this clause along the lines of our proposal.
Our experience goes to show that the present clause is open to evasion by unfair employers, and that something of a stronger character is necessary in order to carry into effect what I believe is the desire of Parliament and the Government of the day. We know that in certain respects employers evade this clause, and I shall refer to one or two points. In my own particular industry we have been caused a great deal of trouble by the tendency of large firms to migrate from London into some place where there is no trade union organisation covering the conditions. In fact, sometimes it happens that they are the only firm in the trade settling down in that locality. The Inquiry that has recently reported rather agreed that there are conditions in this inimical to the workers. First of all, it deprives them of the benefit of collective bargaining, because there are no principles guiding either workmen or the firms there as to what should constitute a reasonable standard. The firms themselves lay down the standard that shall prevail in that particular district.
The Resolution that we are submitting seeks to ensure that the trades union conditions prevailing in the nearest district shall be those established in such cases as those to which I am referring. I am quite well aware of the fact which the Special Inquiry noted that there is the possibility of some weakness in that because, they pointed out, the nearest district might be a small town in which the conditions are so low that they will be hardly applicable to the case of the firm in question. On the other hand the nearest district might be a large town where the conditions are much higher than you could hope to establish in these cases. I quite realise that there is a difficulty in framing a set of words that would actually cover such circumstances, and I do not see any other way out of the difficulty than by the institution of co-terminous districts. I feel that the excellent Inquiry that the Board of Trade carried out a short time back relative to the cost of living prices and wages might be instrumental in this matter; that is to say, if we could bring employers and the trade unionists and the Board of Trade together in this matter so that the rates might be designed to cover the whole of a given district. I do not intend to go further in detail, because I candidly confess I am vividly aware of the difficulties of the situation, at the same time saying that what we are doing by our Clause is perhaps the best attempt to carry out our object, while the suggestion I have made might be of some little use.
In the particular industry in whose interests I speak the question of female labour has given us grave concern. Our claim is that female labour doing the same work as male labour should be paid at the same rate of wages. I could never yet understand why it should be a tradition that women must accept less than men although they are doing the same class of work. Perhaps it is owing to the unorganised state of female labour that the employers are able to impose conditions upon them which would not be acceptable to organised males. I have noted an extreme anxiety on the part of some employers to see that female wages are not enhanced, because they would have us believe that they simply employ females on philanthropic motives. Unfortunately I am not able to delude myself into thinking that such is the case. I believe that female labour is employed because they can get it at such a low rate as will compensate them for even a slightly reduced output. A witness giving evidence before this Select Inquiry instanced a case in my own particular trade where men and women were employed together. She stated that in a certain printing office you might take the rate for setting a column of a newspaper at one shilling, and that the weekly output was 32 shillings for male labour. She referred to the case of a woman who was equally good as a man at type-setting. She would turn out 32 columns a week, quite as clean matter as the man, and the foreman or employer would strike an average, halve it, and pay the woman just half the amount that the man had received for the same output. I think there is justification for our demand that women, when they do the same work as men, should receive the same remuneration, and I trust we shall be able to design our clause so as to cover examples of that sort. The textile representatives claim that females in their industry should be paid the same as the men, and I believe it works very well. Personally, I desire to restrict female labour as far as possible—at any rate, where it is utilized to depress male labour. It will always be desirable that the man should be the breadwinner of the family, and naturally we are imbued with the desire to maintain a standard of wages compatible with the breadwinner maintaining himself and those dependent upon him in a state of decency and comfort. The Government need not fear that, if they tighten up their clause and expect contractors to be model employers, they will not get sufficient competitors for their work. Government work is very popular. Contractors know full well that they get ready money terms, incur no bad debts, and receive an excellent advertisement as contractors to His Majesty's Government. The Government, as the custodian of the public conscience in this matter, has a perfect right to say that public work should be done in accord with the principles desired by the people as a whole. My hon. Friend pointed out how cheap labour generally means scamped labour. We recognise the right of any employer to select the best workmen he can possibly get at the rate. It is sometimes said—as was done by certain employers who gave evidence before the Select Committee—that employers are perfectly justified in paying a low rate of wages because they are able to get men for it. Nobody in this House, I think, is prepared to stand by a dictum of that sort. People are compelled to accept conditions against which they would otherwise rebel, because they have not the freedom of selection which many aver they have. But, beyond that. we are agreed to-day that political economy must be humanised, and we are recognising, I believe, in prospective legislation that the Government has a right to see to it that every willing worker has a living wage in return for the labour he performs. For these reasons I have pleasure in seconding the Motion, and I hope the Government may see their way to effect such an Amendment in their own proposal as will be acceptable to us—labour and trade union group alike—so that we may have the satisfaction of knowing in future that Government work is done under such conditions as will be just to the workpeople, fair to the employers, and in accord with that increasingly higher public conscience which we know to be prevalent to-day.
Question proposed.
rose to move to leave out from "Wages" to end, and to add "Clauses in Government contracts should be so amended as to provide as follows: The contractor shall, under the penalty of a fine or otherwise, pay rates of wages and observe hours of labour not less favourable than those commonly recognised by employers and trade societies (or, in the absence of such recognised wages and hours, those which in practice prevail amongst good employers) in the trade in the district where the work is carried out. Where there are no such wages and hours recognised or prevailing in the district, those recognised or prevailing in the nearest district in which the general industrial circumstances are similar shall be adopted. Further, the conditions of employment generally accepted in the district in the trade concerned shall be taken into account in considering how far the terms of the fair wages clauses are being observed. The contractor shall be prohibited from transferring or assigning, directly or indirectly, to any person or persons whatever, any portion of his contract without the written permission of the department. Sub-letting, other than that which may be customary in the trade concerned, shall be prohibited. The contractor shall be responsible for the observance of the fair wages clauses by the sub-contractor instead thereof."
The right hon. Gentleman said: I rise thus early because I am anxious that the House should be in possession of my Amendment as well as the Motion which has just been moved. I think hon. Members opposite will admit that in this matter we are all agreed in reference to the principle. The only question is as to the practical way of carrying out the Fair Wages Resolution. I am sure my hon. Friends will recognise that my Amendment is in no sense hostile to their Motion. The Mover expressed the view that his Motion was more watertight; I think that my proposal is more seaworthy. It is really a question of working, and I am sure that my hon. Friend and those who were associated with him in drawing up their Motion must have felt the real difficulty of expressing in words the desire that we all have at heart in this matter. I venture to speak on this question because, as Postmaster-General, I am a very large employer of labour, direct and indirect, and also because I have a parental feeling in regard to the fair wages Resolution. I have now had a long Parliamentary career, and I think the only action of my Parliamentary life upon which I look back with any satisfaction at all is the fair wages Resolution to which the House assented some eighteen years ago. At all events, I was glad to find that my hon. Friends opposite, although they felt that in many respects it wanted improving and "tightening up," agreed that it had done useful work. I do not wish to put the claim too high, but I would say that it has benefited the workmen without injuring the employers; it has encouraged the good employers, and opened Government work to the best class of workmen; and it has removed what existed before—the disability of trade unionists in regard to working under Government contracts. The result of that, from the public point of view, is the improved work which the Government obtain, because obviously when the work is done by good employers and good workmen the community obtain better work than they used to secure under the old conditions. It has also made the Executive Government—I am not speaking of any particular party—realise that they themselves must be good employers if they insist on their contractors fulfilling those conditions. If they are going to observe the mote in the contractor's eye they must also look to the beam in their own eye. I entirely endorse the words of the late Prime Minister, quoted by the Mover of the Resolution, that the Government, whether it is an indirect or a direct employer of labour, ought to be in the first flight of employers. But my hon. Friend made one little mistake. As general employers of labour I think the Government have a good record, but he said that it also applied to Cabinet Ministers. There I demur. In the first place, the bulk of my 200,000 employés work only eight hours a day, whereas I am expected to work a great deal more. I see my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works present. It is all very well to say that our colleagues obtain a fair rate of pay, but my right hon. Friend and I are sweated; we are paid only about half as much as they. I accept the general dictum that the Government of the day is, or ought to be, a good employer of labour. I wish, and I am sure my right hon. Friend wishes, that that would prevail all round.
I would venture to recall to the House the original reason why the fair wages Resolution was proposed and adopted. Before the Resolution was brought into force it was quite clear that the Government was the greatest employer of labour in the country through contractors, and the passing of the Resolution could not help being an influence for good or bad in the labour market in regard to wages and hours of labour. Before 1891 the influence of the Government—I am speaking of the Government without respect to party—was unfortunately largely thrown into the wrong scale. What really happened in those days was that the various Departments looked primarily, and looked practically, only to the solvency of the contractor; they washed their hands of everything else, and the result was that they took the lowest tender quite apart from what the conditions of labour under that tender might be. The result, of course, was that it was injurious to the good employer, injurious to the good workmen, and it was certainly bad for the State. I think the principle which the House desired to adopt in 1891 in passing the Resolution was that the Government influence ought to be for good and not for bad, that they ought to be to a certain extent responsible for the conditions of labour in the work which they put out to contract, and that in order to obtain that object, they should take not merely the lowest tender without any question as to the conditions of labour, but that they ought to see that their contractors did pay the standard or recognised rate of wages in any particular trade. The result of that has been to enable good manufacturers to compete with the bad manufacturers, and to enable good contractors to obtain Government contracts in a way which before they were unable to do, and it enabled trade unionists—for after all my hon. Friends are speaking chiefly in their interests—to take work under Government contracts, for the essence of trade unionism is that a man shall not take a rate below that which he thinks is a fair rate, and which his fellow trade unionists think a fair rate. That, I think, has been a considerable step forward, and I endorse what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich said, namely, that in this matter there is no attack upon capital or employers. On the contrary, it is intended to recognise those who are good employers of labour, those who are at present prepared to find it profitable to employ good labour, to give reasonable hours to their workers, and to pay good wages. And so far from being an attack on them, it appears to me to be the best step that can be taken in the interest of capital itself.
We have now to consider how far that Fair Wages Resolution of 1891 has been successful. I admit that in the earlier days it was of a somewhat rickety character. The whole of the traditions of the various Departments were against it, and for a long time there were great difficulties in connection with its administration. Both of the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken gave instances that the Fair Wages Clause has in a number of cases been evaded. I think that evasion, so far as my experience goes, has been comparatively small. I think the best test of that is this: There is something like £25,000,000 a year paid for Government contracts, and the number of complaints only amount to about a score in the course of the year. In addition to that the complaints from workers employed by the Departments themselves do not amount to any large number. T think in connection with the Post Office there are no less than 4,000 employers who contract or tender for various articles, and among these I am glad to say that there are comparatively few complaints. I do desire to say, on behalf of the various Departments concerned, that, while I admit that at the present moment there may be a want of uniformity of practice in regard to the Fair Wages Resolution, they do really desire to carry out the Resolution to its greatest possible extent, and in proof of that I need only instance a case which occurred a day or two ago, in which my right hon. Friend, to the satisfaction of every Member of the House, cancelled a contract because the contractor was not carrying out the terms of the Resolution. I myself—and I am sure the same will apply to those connected with other Departments—have cancelled contracts for the same reason. I am inclined to think that when contracts are cancelled for breach of the Fair Wages Resolution the more publicity that is given to the fact the better for all parties, except, of course, the contractor concerned. I do think it is rather a testimony to Government contractors—and I should like to say so publicly—that the number of complaints made against them is comparatively small. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Central Finsbury is in his place, but I wish to say that the Post Office and other Departments have lately sent tenders to the various trade unions concerned. Last year we sent notice of 1,600 or 1,700 of these tenders to the various trade unions. There were sent on my behalf to the hon. Member for Central Finsbury 971 letters in reference to those questions of tender, and I have not received a single letter in reply. Therefore I assume that as regards the 971 letters containing the names of various contractors the tenders were fairly satisfactory to the persons concerned. I think it is only just to the contractors as a whole to say that they themselves are as desirous of carrying out the Fair Wages Resolution as we are to impose it. I entirely agree with what fell from the Mover and Seconder of the Motion that it is time that the Fair Wages Clause was overhauled, improved, and made more workable.
I wonder that it has been as it is, considering the nature of its original creation. The position was this. I moved a Resolution which was watertight. The Government of the day did not see its way to accept it, but they proposed the present working of the Fair Wages Resolution. If they had proposed nothing I should have been beaten; if I had not accepted their wording they would have beaten me, and, therefore, I accepted their wording until we had something better later on. I admit that the word "current" is a word of wide interpretation, and that it is an unscientific word to apply to this particular case. I quite agree that the time has come to make it more specific and to clear up the difficulties with regard to this matter.
The other day there was a Departmental Committee with reference to the delay, and it is a great compliment to the Fair Wages Clause that the Departmental Committee should have left the Resolution in the way in which they did, and we are indebted to them for the great care with which they considered the matter; but the time has come for a more specific fair wages resolution. We want, if possible, to have greater uniformity of practice, and we want to have promptitude of action. My Amendment is an alternative more than an Amendment, and after listening to the speeches of the Mover and Seconder, I do not think that there is any fundamental difference between us. Nor, I believe, is there in any quarter of the House.
I will venture to quote words I used in moving the Fair Wages Resolution some years ago when I said: "No one proposes that the Government should fix the rate of wages. All that is asked is that the Government should accept as fair wages those rates of wages which prevail in any particular trade; the rate that has been fixed by negotiation between employers and workmen. There is no mystery about this matter. A standard rate of wages for the time being prevails in every large trade, and it is perfectly well known. The rates are settled by negotiation and agreement. They are recognised on one side as fair by the representatives of the men and on the other paid by all good employers." The objection I find to the Motion is that it is not as specific as it might otherwise be, because it speaks only of the minimum rate of wages recognised by trade societies customarily executing such class of work in the nearest district. If there is only one or two employers out of a large number the rate of wages paid by them could not be regarded as the recognised rate. I gather from my hon. Friend that the recognised rates are the rates agreed upon by the employer and the employed. There was a point raised by the hon. Member for Norwich with reference to preference being given to trade unionists, but I take it that what he really desires is that the conditions shall not be such as regards wages and hours as will prevent trade unionists from working under Government contractors.
That an employer should not debar a trade unionist from getting employment.
That a trades unionist should be able when the conditions of wages are fair to obtain work. As regards the second point, when the late Liberal Government was in power I myself on their behalf gave the undertaking that an employer should not make it a condition of employment that he will only employ non-unionists. That is not a fair position of any Government contractor to take up. I am prepared on behalf of the present Government to repeat the pledge which I gave myself as long ago as when the late Liberal Government was in office. I hold a strong view on the subject. There is one difficulty which I think both of my hon. Friends referred, and that was this: You may be a contractor who under a Government contract pays a fair rate of wages and carries out the proper hours of labour. I do not think it is within the power of the Government to insist that the wages shall be on the same level. In regard to this matter we have the power of inspection and the power of considering the matter when any fresh contracts come on. The fair wages resolution applies, as a legal obligation, only to workers engaged on the Government contract in question. It would, however, not be the practice of Government Departments to keep on their lists of contractors firms who obeyed the letter of the clause by paying recognised rates on Government contracts, but who were proved to be notoriously bad employers in other directions. Still less would a Department give work to a firm who took advantage of the fair wages paid in Government work, to employ those same workers at a rate even below the normal in the output of non-Government articles—a practice that had been known to exist in sweating trades. And the real security in regard to this matter is that contracts are renewable from time to time, and that we have the power and the opportunity to review the conditions of labour under any contract. There is another point in which I do not think the Motion of my hon. Friend covers the ground as completely as my own. It is that in several districts where there is no actually recognised rate of wages, such as I have been referring to, but in which, all the same,' there is a prevailing rate paid by good employers—and I draw the special attention of the House to the words in my Motion, because, for the first time in any Government Motion in regard to this matter, the words "good employer" appears—as regards those places I have in my Amendment translated "current rate" into the terms "good employers," and that, I venture to say, is a very considerable step in advance in regard to this matter. There is another class to which both my hon. Friends have referred, namely, those places and those districts in which no recognised rate and no prevailing rate exists. I think the hon. Member for Norwich said that in some cases the employer took his workshop away from the district in which there was a recognised rate into some other district in which there was no such recognised rate and immediately considerably reduce the wages. That, I think, is a very legitimate grievance on the part of those who by great energy and great effort have obtained something in the nature of a recognised rate. The mover of the Motion proposes to meet that by recognising the rate paid in the nearest district, and providing that that shall be the rate recognised in this particular district. That is a question I admit of very great complexity and difficulty. I am glad to say, as far as anyone can judge, it is diminishing, because there is an increasing tendency to have a recognised rate throughout the country. But I do not think if you necessarily take the nearest district it in many cases bears any relation to the rate that ought to be paid in the particular district in question. I am sure that the suggestion of my hon. Friend who seconded the Motion is a very useful one. I want to show to the House that in this matter the words that I have put upon the Paper are very carefully chosen. We want to compare like with like, and if you find industrial conditions exist elsewhere these rates of wages and hours of labour ought to be applied to those as in recognised districts, and the employer should not be allowed to go from one place to another to lower wages. In this matter I am glad to think we have already very considerable experience, and very considerable knowledge. This particular matter would bring in the Board of Trade to decide the question, and I think it will be admitted in all corners of the House that in this matter the Board of Trade has not only got considerable knowledge but has always applied it with absolute impartiality. Might I in this connection venture to say, what I am sure will be endorsed by all Members of the House, that all questions of social reforms have sustained a severe loss in the death of Mr. Wilson Fox. I do not think the question as to the conditions of labour has been touched upon by an hon. Member. I only want to say in regard to it that it was mentioned to me that the words of my Resolution in regard to the conditions of labour apart from the question of hours and wages might be held to apply to conditions generally. That was not intended at all. It was simply relative to the conditions of employment other than those dealt with above. It is perfectly clear that the conditions "other than those of wages and hours" must be left to the discretion of the various Departments, and that in the organisation of different trades which vary so much you cannot lay down an absolute condition of labour as you can in regard to wages and hours. There are trades in some places where there are neither recognised hours or wages, and where there are none current in the trade. Therefore it may be necessary, and is occasionally necessary, for the Government to intervene. I myself, since I have been at the Post Office, have intervened, and am intervening, in order to fix something in the nature—necessarily experimental and by no means satisfactory—of a minimum wage. I venture to say, in conjunction with the Board of Trade, that I should have the right to say to a contractor such and such a wage is necessary if I am to consider you are complying with the Fair Wages Resolution. In regard to the clothing trade, I have laid down a minimum wage for the lowest class of labour. The War Office has done the same. I trust I may be allowed to say this in explanation: I have only done it in regard to the poorest class of labour and not in regard to the higher branches—this is the first time that anything in the nature of a minimum wage was fixed for a Government Department, and so far as my information goes, it makes a very material improvement in the conditions, and in some cases doubles the wages earned by those women engaged in the trade and will tend to level up the wages more. But what I look forward to still more, in regard to these outside trades, is that when the Government passes the Wages Board, these disorganised trades will be brought into line with the trades my hon. Friend opposite represent. I need hardly say, as far as the Government is concerned, any rate of wages fixed by the Wages Board would be at once assumed to be the minimum wage in that trade, and would certainly be insisted upon in Government contracts.
May I just say that I think that one advantage of the Fair Wages Resolution, if it is carried in this shape, will be that it will sustain and encourage agreement and lead steadily to the recognition of the rates of wages and the hours of work. I think we all agree, whatever may be our views in reference to the fiscal question, that one of the advantages of the recognition of the rates of wages, which I am glad to think has extended lately—that one of the advantages of that is to give stability to a trade and is of advantage to the real output of that particular trade which nothing else can really effect. I do not think the question has been raised with regard to sub-contractors. I have endeavoured in that respect also to make any Amendment watertight. I think it will cover every phase of sub-contracting. We have put in the Fair Wages Contract that if in the ordinary course of trade there is any sub-contracting, and that is the only sub-contracting allowed, but if there is that, the contractor would be equally responsible for the conditions of labour under the sub-contract as he is under any contract himself. The various Departments concerned have endeavoured to place before the House what we believe to be a really workable arrangement for the future with regard to the Fair Wages Resolution, but I want to add to that just this, that a Departmental Committee the other day made various regulations for the more efficient working of the Fair Wages Resolution, and I venture to summarise them to the House to show that not only are we proposing to the House a fair wages resolution which will carry out the real principles and objects which the House as a whole and all parts of the House has at heart, but also that we wish to make it as far as possible effective so that it should be carried out in the spirit and in the letter. I venture to read this summary of what I may call additional administrative proposals that we are prepared to assent to.
In the first place: "That contractors should keep proper records of the time worked by their employes, especially when on piece-work." I am sure I think that in most of the Departments that is also understood. "That the Fair Wages Clauses of the contract should, where it is considered necessary, be prominently exhibited for the information of the workpeople. That the names of firms obtaining Government contracts should be published in the 'Board of Trade Labour Gazette.' That there should be uniformity among the Departments in the wording of the Fair Wages Clauses dealing with the conditions of labour in contracts affecting the same trade. Further, in order to obtain uniformity of administration and co-operation between the different contracting Departments on matters affecting inspection, investigation of complaints and generally the interpretation of the Fair Wages Clauses, we shall set up an inter-Departmental Advisory Committee which will include a representative of the Board of Trade." This Advisory Committee are in no sense arbitrators at all, but as advisers they will be of the greatest possible advantage from the administrative point of view. I have been in communication with the various Departments, and we want to deal with these matters with uniformity. We want to get real information, which only one Department can supply, viz., the Board of Trade. Therefore all the Departments are agreed that their representative shall be the Chairman of the Advisory Committee, so that we shall feel that all the Departments are brought together under one head. I hope that will give satisfaction to the House.
Perhaps the hon. Member who moved this Motion will allow me to say how glad I am that he was successful in the ballot, and able to bring on this Motion. I have for many years thought that this Fair Wages Clause should be strengthened. I have ventured to endeavour to show to the House that not only have we given this matter a great deal of consideration, but we really do believe that the wording of the Amendment does cover all matters of difficulty, and so far as it does not cover all matters of difficulty we hope by administration to get over them. I hope under these circumstances the House and my hon. Friend will agree to my Amendment. I think in these matters from the point of view of administration it is of the greatest possible advantage to have the unanimous opinion of the House in regard to them, so as to carry far greater weight not only with the Departments but with the contractors as well. I beg to move.
Question proposed: "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question."
It must not be inferred from my lonely position on this bench that I speak with any representative authority or propose to give voice to any opinion except my own, but I do rise for the purpose of enforcing one or two particular points, and before doing so I hope I may be permitted to make an observation, and that is, in how interesting a manner this debate shows how far we have got from the ancient principles of administration. We are to be governed by administrative formulse, and to pay no attention to the most potent of all factors, namely, that thing which, for the want of a better name, we have from first to last called human nature. Cerainly not on this side of the House, and, least of all, amongst those who remember the debates of 1891, is there any serious question when we approach the main principle which underlies the Motion or the Amendment to-night. Were it sought to do so we should only need to turn to the two descriptions which, in 1891, were given to the then policy of the Office of Works represented in this House by the very acceptable personality of Mr. David Plunket, afterwards Lord Rath-more. His practice was described first by the right hon. Gentleman who sits opposite, namely, that he intended to provide that the contractor should pay within the limit of a maximum and a minimum wage. On the other hand, Mr. Plunket himself described his aim as securing that a workman should receive for a fair day's work a fair day's wage. In these circumstances it is not to be wondered at if there is not really much difference between the right hon. Gentleman now at the Head of the Post Office and the then Head of the Office of Works. The right hon. Gentleman to-night claims that there was some difference between the Motion that he moved that night and the Amendment which was moved and carried by Mr. Plunket on behalf of the Government of the day. I doubt if any serious distinction can be drawn, by anyone who really knows the English language, between the two formulae. The formula of the right hon. Gentleman opposite was that what should be paid should be that which was found to accord with the recognised customs and conditions as to rates of wages and working hours. What Mr. Plunket carried was that the wages paid should be the wages generally accepted as current. Anyone who can draw a real distinction between the two forms of words is a more ingenious person than I am. If there was an addition it was one which Mr. Plunket was bound to make. He accepted the addition that the wages should be those current in practice for the services of competent workmen. I think Mr. Plunket did no more than was right in deciding on behalf of the public that in that matter and in no other it should be secured to them that the public should receive the best possible value for their money. I could wish that some such words were still to be found in the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman moves to-night, in which he intends to give expression to his policy. I should be quite willing if he would give us an assurance to that effect, to accept his assurance that those words had not been found to be necessary. I can believe that is so because my own view is that the true line along which to seek for the proper solution of this question is to go along the lines foreshadowed in 1891, namely, to aim between the maximum and the minimum rate actually being paid.
That brings me to a particular case of the possibility of abuse with which I am specially familiar. I had had to bring to the notice of one of the public Departments a particular case. I will not name the Department, all the more because it is not one of the Departments which is represented at the present moment on the Treasury Bench, and also because the dispute is proceeding. But if I am right—I only assume for the purpose of my present argument that I am right, and I am willing to assume also that I am wrong—what the Department has been doing is to go about in search of wages accepted as current for competent workmen, to find how low a wage will be accepted by any workmen in any particular case from any particular firm. I contend that that is not the right principle.
If that were the principle adopted by any Department it is the wrong principle. If you find eight or nine firms willing to give 1s. 2d. for a particular service or a particular commodity, and two firms willing to give only a shilling and able to find workmen at the rate of a shilling I suppose you would say that the Department would be wrong in giving a preference to those who gave no more than a shilling. Were it not so it must be obvious that they were encouraging the employers who were trying to make money to their own advantage out of the existing slackness of employment, and the Government would be consciously or unconsciously lending its aid to that most undesirable form of coercion, the exploiting for the purposes of individual profit of the undeserved misfortunes of the working classes. Surely none of the Departments desire to do that. In this quarter of the House we do not agree with any practices of that kind. The right hon. Gentleman may claim our sympathy on broad grounds for some of the main objects he stated. He stated that his primary object is to limit the area of dispute. The excellence of that appears on the face of it. He desires that uniformity should be practised. He desires that all employers should know what principles they were expected to carry out; and he desires that there should be an end of all strikes, disputes and contests. Before concluding, I would draw the attention of the hon. Member who brought this motion before the House to the fact that the word "minimum," although it is qualified by "recognised by trade societies," and so on, "in the district," is against the interests which he so ably advocated. I do not advise him to insist on that word, because it is a word which may be fastened on by the subordinates in a department for the purpose of carrying out a contract at the lowest rate which would be accepted in a time of depression and slackness of employment. Perhaps I may say to the Gentlemen below the Gangway that they may hereafter find that they have been somewhat mistaken in all these sweating and overwork resolutions. They should aim at something behind and beyond the mere amount of money to be paid in wages. They should aim to encourage the general content of the people. Some persons who rejoice in the stability of ancient idols and old institutions keep persistently standing in the old places, but we sitting in this part of the House believe that what I have suggested would secure the fulfilment of some of our ideas, and that it is the only way to obtain some of these measures, which would content the people.
I only rise to call attention to the fact that the case I bring forward is not provided for either in the original Motion or in the Amendment proposed by the Postmaster-General. I allude to cases-where there is no fixed minimum standard rate of wages for the work which is to be performed. I have in mind the very case which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield has referred to. It is the case where a special kind of work has to be done for a Government Department which occurs not continuously, but only periodically, and no standard rate of wages has been fixed between masters and men for that particular class of work. So that the first condition laid down in the original Resolution will not apply, because there is no standard rate by which the wages can be fixed; and the second part of the Motion would be of no avail, because there is no adjoining district performing a similar kind of work—in fact, there is no-district where this particular work is performed under similar conditions. Consequently neither of the provisions of the Motion moved by the hon. Member for the Gorton Division would enable the rate of wages to be fixed for this particular class of work.
The Government Department discovers that three-fourths of the firms who tender for this work pay a certain price, and that one-fourth of them pay a price 20 per cent. lower. Forthwith this Government Department gives the contract to two of those firms who comprise one-fourth of the whole, and who pay the lower rate of wages. When a complaint is raised, what happens? An official is sent down to investigate the circumstance and to find out the standard rate of wages. He endeavours to discover the proper conditions of labour. He goes to the employers and obtains from them their particular reason why they regard what they pay as the standard rate, but he does not give a similar opportunity to the officials representing the men to submit their evidence. The Government official will probably ask some of the men employed whether they believe what is being paid to them is a fair rate of wages, and whether they are satisfied or not, and they dare scarcely say anything else than that they are satisfied. [An HON. MEMBER: "The manager is there."]
There is a very vague sentence in the Amendment of the Postmaster-General in which it is suggested that this standard may be arrived at by taking what good employers pay in the district, but I want it to be made quite clear that in cases like this the rate of wages paid by the majority of employers who do this special kind of work shall be regarded in the absence of any covenant between workmen and masters as the minimum standard of wages. If in the particular case to which I have referred the minimum standard had been fixed according to the price paid by the majority of the firms, then the wages would have been paid at the higher rate. I want it to be made quite clear that when cases of dispute arrive and the Department cannot easily discover the minimum standard rate of wages, if an official is sent down to investigate, he should hear both sides and take the evidence of the men's representatives as well as the evidence of the employers. If these conditions were insisted upon, it would put an end to a great deal of the irregularities which now prevail in the case of men employed on this special kind of work.
On this question I represent the opinion of those who are members of the Trade Union Group in this House. We have all been delighted with the speeches on this subject made on both sides of the House. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield shows that the education of the public and its representatives with reference to the demand for fair conditions of life and labour on the part of the working people of this country has been very rapid indeed. We are delighted to find that the old stale arguments about political economy and the law of supply and demand no longer find any place in debates of this description when there is a demand for better conditions of labour. There is one point—I think I ought to say first of all that I have been very interested in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, and if we can only get that kind of feeling in the interpretation of Acts and Amendments by the chiefs of the different Departments I do not think we shall have much to complain of. But there is one point—only one point—in the speech which has been delivered—for the Amendment and Resolution are almost the same, except in one important connection. That is on line four of the Motion. The terms are "pay to all the workmen in his employ." I think the right hon. Gentleman would have avoided a great deal of difficulty in the enforcing of the Fair Wages Resolution in Government contracts if he had accepted that suggestion from this side of the House. I can quite see that there are going to be very considerable difficulties if this is not eventually agreed upon by the heads of the different Departments.
Just imagine some firm in the East End of London, where it is well known that sweating wages generally prevail. The Government—it may be the right hon. Gentleman's own Department—gives a contract to what is practically known as a sweating concern, but the head of the concern agrees just for a few men for a week or a month or two, as the case may be—there may be 30 or 40 people working there—and just because they happen to be working on Government work their wages are to be fixed at a standard by the right hon. Gentleman, and the others are to be paid whatever wages the employer chooses. It is a moral certainty that unless the right hon. Gentleman has a man continually watching to see that just those people who are getting the right wages are doing his work, that he may discover at the end of the job, or he may never discover at all—which is more likely—that as a matter of fact those who have been receiving less pay have really been performing his work. As a matter of fact, had it not been for this one point I do not think that there would have been any difference of opinion between him and us in regard to this very important subject. I admit that even the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is a great advance upon the old fair wages clauses in Government contracts. But the statement that it did so much good to raise the standard of wages generally in the different trades where Government work was put out is perhaps beyond the mark. I think that we may say that the old Resolution did much for the skilled and well-organised trades, but precious little for the unskilled or unorganised trade. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield made a statement a moment ago that bears an important resemblance to the statement which was a moment ago made by the hon. Member opposite. That is that he objected to the term "good employers" in the Postmaster-General's Amendment. He preferred the standard minimum should be fixed. At any rate, it is a great advantage to have got a standard fixed at "good employers," because it is unquestionably true, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield has said, that there is at least one Government Department which has not gone to the good employer to give his standard wage, but has hunted up every place to find what was the lowest wage paid in the place, and then decided that that was the current wage in accordance with the Fair Wage Clause in Government contracts. I may say an accusation of that description should not be made unless one can prove that it is true. There was a dispute as to wages recently in the Portsmouth Dockyard in connection with labourers and navvies, and the representatives of the Government on the spot decided that they would apply to the Contractors' Association in the locality to find out what wages were paid, and with the permission of the House I will read the correspondence, because I imagine that in writing to the Contractors' Association they desired only to get information with the intention of enforcing it the moment they had received their reply, whatever it might be. At any rate, this is the letter: "Dockyard, Portsmouth, 12th November, 1908." This, I may say, is to the Master Builders' and Contractors' Association of the Portsmouth district.
The letter goes on to say:—
What you have got to be careful about, and what the right hon. Gentleman has to remember, is when we criticise the special wording of this Resolution, particularly the point to which I have referred as to all men employed being paid the proper wages by the contractor, you have got to recollect that even yet there are Government Departments which do not like the Fair Wages Clause, and always give it an interpretation opposed to the working men who are employed by the contractor. Therefore it is absolutely essential, as this may be our only opportunity for years of discussing this proposition, when now we have a sympathetic Gentleman in charge of the Motion, that we should try to amend the Amendment in such a way that such a wrong interpretation of what is the intention of this House with reference to this subject should not be possible in the future, as the evidence clearly shows it has been in the past.
As the hon. Member for Stoke observed, there has been unanimity in all parts of the House as to the desirability of the policy which is described as the Fair Wages policy. I think the hon. Gentleman is quite entitled to say, as he did say, that both on the Government benches and on the Opposition benches and below the Gangways the principle of the Fair Wages Clause is unreservedly and generously accepted. I do not profess to express an opinion as between the terms of the hon. Gentleman's Motion and the Amendment which has been moved from the Front Bench, but, speaking for myself, and having made some inquiries in Liverpool, I know the Fair Wages Clause which is in operation there is one which, if it does not go quite as far as that from below the Gangway, goes a considerable length, and is one which, as far as the working classes generally in Liverpool are concerned, has been found to be completely satisfactory in character. I refer to the Corporation Fair Wages Clause.
I rise, as the hon. Gentleman may gather from the terms of the Amendment which I put down, and which I am precluded, from the tendency the Debate has taken, from actually moving, to call the attention of the House to a slightly different aspect, although a cognate aspect, of the same subject. The Treasury Committee recently examined into the whole question of fair wages, and one of the witnesses was the Secretary of the London Chamber of Commerce, a gentleman about whom I think everyone would agree he was highly qualified to speak with experience on behalf of manufacturers as a whole. He expressed this opinion, that however defensible with the interests of English labour the insistence upon the Fair Wages Clause might be, that unless it were found possible to impose some similar conditions upon foreign competitors, any extension of the Fair Wages Clause must inevitably cause hardship amongst English contractors and unemployment amongst English working men.
I have listened to the debate which has now proceeded for two hours, and every speaker has shown strong reasons for protecting one body of English working men against another body of English working men. I want to make an appeal, I hope upon entirely unprovocative lines, to the Labour party, and, if possible, to elicit where they stand in reference to the difficulty presented by the existence of foreign competition to-day. I am anxious to know the position of the Labour party and the arguments which have led them to the conclusion at which they have arrived. I do not appeal to hon. Members opposite who are convinced Free Traders. Their view, which is simple, logical, and inexorable, is that, as far as contracts abroad are concerned, the Fair Wages Resolution must be subordinated to the doctrine of spontaneous exchange. That is a very simple doctrine—that the goods introduced will be cheaper to the English consumer, that if we buy from the foreign producer he must in turn buy from us, and that therefore our home employment does not suffer. Take, for instance, the question of granite, which has lately been prominently before the House, and has no less interested the country. The position of the Free Trader—which is not the position of the Labour party—is this: It is quite true that we cannot insist upon the Fair Wages Clause in foreign contracts, and that artisans in granite in this country may suffer, inasmuch as their employment depends upon employers who are under the Fair Wages Clause, but the other artisans none the less profit by hypothetical Norwegian imports. But that is not the position of the Labour party. On this point they are not strict Free Traders. There was a celebrated contract in connection with which this controversy assumed an acute form—I refer to the horse shoes case. The Free Trade case there was perfectly simple. It was that we buy horse shoes from abroad; but English workmen are in no way injured, because those on the Continent who supply us with horse shoes will buy something from us.
Not on the Continent; in America. Does the hon. Member suggest that the American firm was not paying fair wages?
Whether they paid fair wages or not does not in the least matter to the argument. ["Oh."] It matters only if the hon. Gentleman is prepared to say, on behalf of the Government, that in the case of all Government contracts given abroad the Government does insist on the observance of fair wages conditions.
In the only case the hon. Member mentioned, we are certain that the wages were perfectly fair and good.
The hon. Gentleman says that that is so in one particular case. But the point is not in any way confined to one case. He apparently confines himself to one case where the wages are higher in spite of protection. What I ask is whether the position of this Free Trade Government is that contracts should not be given abroad, unless the Fair Wages Clause is observed, and the hon. Gentleman studiously refrains from giving a reply. But let me make an observation on what I conceive to be the position of the Labour party on the question of the horseshoes contract, and if the hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that the Fair Wages Clause was observed in the United States, it makes it more clear that the responsible leaders of the Labour party are not Free Traders. The hon. Member for Barnard Castle, who leads the Labour party with great ability, was interviewed by the "Morning Post" at the time of the horseshoes contract, and this is how that strenuous and logical advocate of Free Trade expressed his view—
On a point of order. Is the hon. and learned Gentleman entitled to convert this discussion into a Fiscal debate?
I think the hon. and learned Gentleman is entitled to argue that the question about which he is now speaking is one that ought to be taken into account.
I quite understand that the point of view I am presenting to hon. Gentlemen opposite is one which they desire to avoid. This is what the hon. Member for Barnard Castle said:—
"It is a bitter disappointment to me to find that any further orders for War Office requirements have been sent abroad. As a general rule the money raised from the British taxpayer should be spent in his own country and for the benefit of his own class. Cheapness is not everything. We must have regard to the provision of work for our own people. These are hard times. Many English workmen are unemployed, and it ought to be one of our first duties to see that these men have employment."
The hon. Member for Woolwich said:—
"I am all in favour of keeping everything we can in the hands of our own manufacturers and workpeople. You have to regard every pound's worth given to a foreign country as a pound's worth we should keep to ourselves."
I think it is only right, as the hon. and learned member has quoted me, to state that this was an interview which followed immediately after an inquiry into affairs at Woolwich—an inquiry in which I was chairman of the Committee. The Committee over which I presided recommended that when there was so much machinery standing in Woolwich, wherever the Government could give orders these orders ought to go to Woolwich. It had nothing whatever to do with the other question of Free Trade or Tariff Reform.
The hon. Member is somewhat more of a Protectionist than I am. I have not been able to support a measure of Protection in the particular interest of Woolwich. I do not understand the hon. Gentleman to dissent from the accuracy of the interview which appeared in the "Morning Post."
I only object to the inference drawn from it by Tariff Reformers.
It is not a question of inferences. The hon. Member says that cheapness is not everything and that we must have regard for the provision of work for our own people. He imagined that the Government were going to give contracts abroad analogous to the horseshoe contract. I wish to ask whether that is Free Trade or Protection. I wish to ask whether any hon. Gentleman on the benches opposite is prepared to say as a Free Trader that he supports the views put forward by the Leader of the Labour party? What is the position in which the Government and the Labour party place the English manufacturer, and, therefore, the English workman, by insisting on more strenuous conditions for employment under the fair wages clause. They insist on fair wages; they insist that certain hours of labour should be observed; they insist that there should be a certain proportion of apprentices to journeymen; and fourthly, they place certain conditions on employers as to the employment of women and children. It is not altogether inop- portune to point out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a recent speech in my own Constituency, stated that we surpassed any country in the world in all these respects. In other words, as regards the rate of wages, the hours of labour, differentiation between apprentices and journeymen, and wise and humane regulations so far as women are concerned, the conditions of employment in this country are higher than in any country in the world.
It follows that every contract placed abroad must be given to artisans who work under inferior conditions to the artisans of this country. If a sempstress at the East End of London works under hideous conditions of labour she is deprived of doing that work in order that a foreign sempstress working under worse conditions may send her goods here. Is there anyone in the House who will defend the importation of foreign prison-made goods? We buy cheap. The consumer benefits. Is there a single Labour Member who dare go to his Constituents and advocate the true principles of Free Trade with reference to foreign prison-made goods?
The hon. Member forgets that the goods made in the East End go to pay for those which we import, and that we should not give employment here unless we were making goods which we export abroad.
At the moment when the hon. Member interrupted me I was discussing the views of the Labour Members, and I do not think any of them will get up and advocate the importation of foreign prison-made goods. On true Free Trade principles we ought not to prevent any obstacles to the unrestricted importation of prison-made goods. The Labour party do not want to expose their artisans to competition from such sources. Englishmen are to be protected from the competition of inferior industrial strata. Pure economic laws are subordinated to considerations of flesh and blood; they must give way to the broad claims of humanity. The inferior standards of employment are to be penalised, and they are to be penalised more and more, but if there are to be exceptions to the rule which makes employment more difficult to obtain for the cheaper form of labour, is it to be borne that the differentiation should be against the Englishman and in favour of the foreigner? The hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division of Glasgow said the condition of unemployment was worse than it was in Germany at the present day, and in a very dramatic sentence he added: "Mr. Speaker, round our doors to-day there surges a miserable sea of workless workers." And the hon. Member for Leeds said: "I have seen a man in the streets of London, an artisan of my own class, make a dive in the gutter for a crust a dog would not eat." Such being the state of trade in this country, this is thought the opportune moment for straining still further the conditions under which those men who are going to give employment to that class of artisans in this country are made to compete with their foreign rivals. [Several MEMBERS: "Why not?"] The answer is this: If there is such a horrible condition of unemployment in this country, if you are spending the money of the English taxpayers to find work for English workmen, is it not that you ought not to penalise the employer in his competition with the foreigner?
Might I suggest to the hon. and learned Member that even under Tariff Reform a Fair Wages Clause would still be necessary.
I do not dissent from that and I hope to show the hon. Gentleman that under Tariff Reform it would be perfectly easy to prevent unfair competition on the part of the foreigner. But at the moment I was pointing out that that being the condition of unemployment we are now dealing with an apparently uneconomic loan. There might be a good deal to be said from the Free Trade point of view if we paid £30,000 more in relation to the granite contract in Norway that would be uneconomic. But it is a curious argument to hear advanced on a day when the President of the Local Government Board comes down to this House and admits that he is going to raise by way of loan £300,000 to distribute among the unemployed. Let me address a fair illustration to hon. Members below the Gangway.
Take a Government contract for machinery requiring 100 men. The English contractor could without any difficulty at all get 100 of the men of whom an hon. Member spoke as diving in the gutter for a crust. He could get men like that and pay a living, but not a fair, wage. But hon. Members will not agree to that. They come forward and make rhetorical speeches about people diving in the gutter for a crust, but what do they do about these 100 men? As far as the tender is concerned you allow the foreign contrac- tor to tender in your market, and the Belgian contractor makes a successful application. In respect of that same contract you might have a Japanese contractor, or, and in point of principle you are committing yourselves to this, if China attained such industrial efficiency as to be able to do so, you would let a Chinese contractor tender and be successful in obtaining this contract. What would be the result of that? Let me ask hon. Members below the Gangway this: Are you or are you not, while penalising the English contractor so that skilled artisans dive in the gutter for crusts, willing to let the Government place contracts with foreigners who outbid us by employing standards which you will not allow in this country? If that is the view of the Labour party, on what logical foundation does it rest? Why do they object to the importation of Belgian and Chinese labour into this country, when they allow the product of it to come in?
They do come. There are over 6,000 Chinamen established in this country. The Aliens Bill does not touch Chinamen, and you know it.
I stated that on the Aliens Bill, and I am glad to notice that statement made by the hon. Gentleman. May I ask for the complete enlightenment here and in the country if he represents the view of the Labour party, that Chinese labourers are to be allowed to come into this country?
I should not object to the Chinamen coming provided they were paid English wages.
Then it seems to me that that part of the objection to Chinese labour in the Transvaal which depends upon the amount of wages does not seem to have much weight.
I beg to ask if the debate as conducted by the hon. and learned Member is not travelling far beyond the bounds of order?
I think the question of Chinese labour coming to this country is going a little wide, and the question of Chinese labour in the Transvaal is certainly irrelevant.
In reply to the interruption, may I say that the point is a very short and simple one. If the Labour party are prepared to allow the product of foreign labour to come into this country, why should not the labourers who pro- duce that product come? The hon. Gentleman says he does not object to people coming into this country if they receive the same rate of wages, but that concedes the whole point. You enforce no security against these men who compete with English manufacturers, and the men can come in if they receive the same rate of wages. If hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway are prepared to allow both the products of foreign labour to come into the country and to allow foreign labourers to come in, I rejoice extremely as a party man, because I am profoundly convinced that the democracy of the country and the working classes on whom they chiefly depend for their support will never allow it, and I shall be interested to hear whether any of them develop these proposals in their Constituencies. But if that is not the position of the Labour party, then, of course, the conclusion inevitably follows that they are not Free Traders, but Tariff Reformers.
I shall hope to show how the effect of this Fair Wages Clause could perfectly well be secured in respect of foreign contractors under a reasonable tariff system. I have been shown an agreement between employers and men in the Norwegian quarries which was made in 1902 and has not been substantially deviated from as far as the ordinary labourer is concerned, though it has been altered so far as some of the more highly-paid branches of labour are concerned. Under the agreement, the men in the Norwegian quarries are paid sixpence an hoar per day of ten hours. I find that confirmed by looking at the second abstract of foreign labour statistics, which is published by the Board of Trade. I find the daily wage of skilled labourers is 4s. 3½d. for a day of ten hours. In this country I am told the rate is 7½d. or 8d. an hour for a day of nine hours, and it is very important to remember in this connection that 75 per cent. of the selling price of granite is paid in wages. The House will see how very material an element in considering the price at which a contractor can afford to tender is afforded by the amount of wages. If I am right in these figures, the Norw3gian artisans work an hour more than English artisans in the same industry, and they work that hour more for actually lower wages. Besides, the insurance against the Workmen Compensation Bill amounts to 33s. 6d. for every £100 of wages, which comes to 1¼ per cent. of the selling-price of granite. It has been found possible by very competent and experienced authorities to reduce to a percentage the extra burden which is thrown on British contractors as far as insurance is concerned, and I do not think any business man will deny that it is equally possible to reduce to a percentage any difference that there may be in the case of a foreign and an English contract produced by conditions of employment, hours of work, and rates of wages. If I am right in that view it is perfectly simple to reduce to the form of a percentage—I do not say with exact precision, but with approximate precision—the unfair disadvantages to which the English contractor is exposed as compared with the foreign contractor, to the infinite prejudice of the English artisans. If you reduce it to the form of a percentage it will be clear that nothing is easier, as the hon. Member for Mansfield suggested, than to give a preference to the English manufacturer which would correspond with the percentage which is shown to be the difference caused by the inequality of the conditions of tendering between the British and the foreign contractor. You could either do that in the shape of a preference to the British tenderer or in the shape of a duty on the foreign goods. If you achieve the object by either of those means you have a real Fair Wages Clause. You have a national Fair Wages Clause. You have the one advantage, which is comparatively unimportant, of protecting one branch of English workmen against another, but you also have a Fair Wages Clause which will protect your artisans and your trade unionists in this country against the unfair competition of men who are not paid that standard of wages, and who do not work those hours which you acknowledge to be necessary for decent subsistence. I make this prediction, that the Labour party will ultimately, and within the Parliamentary memory of those who are listening to me, drift towards Protection, because they are committed to principles which are essentially Protectionist in their character. We know that the Irish Members in the same way, since Parnell's interview with Lord Carnarvon, have always insisted similarly on their right to protect Irish commodities. I venture to make the suggestion to the hon. Gentlemen who sit below the Gangway, whether Members from Ireland or Labour Members, that they should all realise equally with ourselves that they are Protectionists. The Labour party are, and the Irish party are. I now suggest to them that they should leave the Cobdenites to perish alone, like Samson, in the ruins of the Free Trade temple.
I do not intend to follow up the remarks of the hon. Member who has just sat down. We know what side-tracking means, and we do not intend to be side-tracked. When any of the Protectionists above the Gangway desire to discuss the subject—that, and nothing else—I and my Friends will be quite willing to meet them. It suffices for the moment that when we talk about machinery it is well to understand and remember that five-eighths of the textile machinery made in this country goes abroad, and that four-fifths of the cotton produced in this country goes abroad. When you talk of importation and conditions of importation you have got to look at the other side as well. Regarding the subject before the House, I want to recognise to the full the spirit and tone of the right hon. Gentleman's speech to-night. I can say for all my Friends here that we listened to it with extreme pleasure. Personally I am only sorry that his Amendment is not as good as his speech. I want also to recognise what has taken place in the Government Departments during the past three years. I remember the last time I spoke in this House on the subject. It was in the last Parliament, and one of the points we raised at that time was the great difficulty of settling points of difference with the Government Departments as to contracts and all that sort of thing, because of the want of recognition by the Government of the various workmen's organisations. We know that to-day that workmen's organisations in the Government Departments and the organisations of those who work for Government contractors are now fully recognised, and can state the whole case to the Departments in their own way. That has removed from the House many of the small points of detail which we used to trouble you with on the Estimates at various times. I was also glad to hear the announcement that the names of successful contractors would be published; that will save the Departments a lot of trouble and annoyance in the inquiries that have had to be made up to now. Now, about the 921 letters to which the right hon. Gentleman said he had not had a single answer. The explanation is very simple. Those inquiries came to us from Departments, and we send them from our office to the trades affected. We have no knowledge in our office as to whether this work sent out is under contract with any of our members or not. We have to send from our office to those in the trade who we think could give the information we require, and who can do the necessary checking for us. If there happens to be no complaints from us it does not follow that there may not be complaints from others.
I did not use my argument from the point of view of complaints. Besides the large number of letters referred to we also communicated with the trades union itself. What I meant was that the number of complaints we received was comparatively small.
I thought the right hon. Gentleman meant that we were not doing our duty.
Not at all.
I am glad that the Postmaster-General has started a minimum wage, more especially in regard to women workers. I want to call attention to the part taken by the Board of Trade in this matter. For two years now great efforts have been put forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade in order to bring about courts of arbitration to settle disputes between employers and employed. We think that the best thing the Government can do is to recognise fully what that means. If the Board of Trade is using its utmost influence to bring about the settlement of stiikes and lock-outs satisfactorily by conciliation and arbitration, surely the Government ought to recognise the same principle in giving out their contracts, and only give them to employers who are willing to settle with their workpeople on similar lines. You must carry your policy to its logical conclusion. It is not too much to ask that all our other Government Departments should recognise that the Board of Trade is doing good work, and that they can best support the efforts of the Board of Trade by giving contracts only to those employers who are willing to settle their disputes in the way prescribed by the Board of Trade itself.
Then there is the question of the payment of the trade union rate or the standard rate of wages to all the men employed by an employer, whether he is doing work under a Government contract or performing his ordinary work. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman has given considerable thought to this point, and so have we, not only to-night but for years. In the Resolutions which have been repeatedly passed by the Trades Union Congress this has been one of the most important points. I want to put a case in point to the House. A list of men send in their names of Government contractors, not one of whom are paying the trade union rate of wages now, but they promise the Government, "If you give me a contract I will pay the trade union rate of wages on your contract." Would the right hon. Gentleman consider those contractors good employers? I want the Postmaster-General to see the force of that point. I saw a bunch of letters last week from employers, every one of whom promised to pay trade union rates on Government contracts but not on anything else, and surely the right hon. Gentleman is not going to say that they can be classed as good employers. I understand that you are going to publish the list of successful contractors in the "Labour Gazette." I look at the "Gazette," and I find that a certain employer is paying less than the trade union rate paid in the general run of his occupation, and that, so far as the ordinary work that he does—private contract work—he pays 10 per cent. less than the trade union rate. Have I to be content to let this man receive the taxpayers' money while he is sweating one branch of his workpeople, and just because he has a Government contract, and special terms, and pays an extra 10 or 20 per cent. to these particular men? I think that if the Government reconsider this matter they will see that it will have a considerable difficulty in working out a scheme which allows a man to be a good employer one day and a bad employer the next. Such a person may have 100 workpeople—50 at fair wages and 50 at unfair wages. How are you going to prevent him making a contract with his men to pay them the wages of the Government contract, and to deduct it off their other wages, with the result that—at the end of the week—a man has the same wages in bulk. I ask the Government to consider this.
We have considered it from a practical point of view, and we find it absolutely impossible to have an employer in the two classes. He is either good, or not good. You are going to put us into a position of having to call him a good employer because he pays the trade union rate of wages for your contract, and does not on anything else. I hope the Government will not close their minds entirely on this point. It is further said that it is impossible because of some legal question that made it impossible to enforce it. In this very book that you have been quoting from, three corporation reports are given by the Fair Wages Committee. All three of them have this particular clause in in reference to all the workpeople in their employ—not of people on Government work at all.
Surely if big Corporations like Bradford, Sheffield, and Glasgow can carry out this simple clause, surely it is not too much to ask a Government Department to rise to the occasion. What is really the effective way of carrying out a clause like this? Knock them off your list. What claim will you have to knock a man off the list simply on the ground that he does not pay your contract wages. That is all. But, according to the conditions you have laid out, you have never demanded the contract wages to be paid. I say that is a serious omission—an omission that I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give serious thought to, because I believe it will just leave that loophole that we object to, and which we anticipate if the matter is left as it is. I would just like to say that we are very pleased with what the right hon. Gentleman has offered us. Our position is to-night to make it as perfect as possible. The other important point which we have raised, and which was supported by the hon. Member for Brightside, is that if there is no particular organisation in a district, to take six miles around, going by road, there may be difficulties with it; but we suggest that that could be avoided by having a circuit arrangement. I believe the Board of Trade would assist the various Departments considerably in establishing such an arrangement. But I do think it is a mistake to leave it open, and so allow someone, just beyond the six miles, to penalise both workpeople and employers by allowing one of the latter to pay 10, 20, or even a greater percentage less in wages.
I trust the Government will not close their eyes to this point either, but the other point in my opinion is the more important. The question is: What have we to do to-night? We have already granted that the Government Amendment is a very good step forward. I think I can say on behalf of my friends sitting on these Benches that if the Postmaster-General will just say to us that this matter is not absolutely closed, and that he will give consideration to the point we have raised, we shall be prepared to withdraw our Resolution and support the proposition put forward by the Government. We do think there ought to be some reply to this important point.
I have neither the time nor the intention to reply to the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, which seemed to be directed more to the domestic differences of his own Party than to the subject matter of the debate to-night. The hon. and learned Member for Walton has struck the only jarring note we have had, and it is perhaps not to be wondered at that that should be the attitude of his mind when we find in the Amendment the words:—"That it is useless further to strengthen the Fair Wages Clause."
I think the right hon. Gentleman's statement of the effect of my Amendment is singularly unfair. The words are: "Until steps have been taken to assure that foreign contractors who may tender successfully in respect of such contracts shall be bound by a similar standard."
And there were many qualifications. I regret that those words should have found any place in the mind or the Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman. But I do not deal with that point. I rose to deal with a more important one. The hon. Member for Clitheroe said he thought my right hon. Friend's speech much better than his Amendment. With all respect to my right hon. Friend, I do not think his speech could have surpassed the merits of the Amendment. The Amendment has been most carefully and sympathetically considered with a view to making it as watertight as possible for the purpose to which it is directed, and greater uniformity of action on the part of the Government Department in regard to the Clause we hope will be attained in future. There will be a great gain, I think, by the institution of the Advisory Committee of the Board of Trade, who will be able to give to the Departments guidance not only as to the rate of wage but as to the circumstances of living, which is such an important consideration in connection with the remuneration received by labour. The hon. Member wanted us to add certain words to this Amendment. I am sorry I do not find myself able to accept them. It is not because I dissent from them, but because I think they would set up a principle which it would be difficult to impose in connection with a Resolution directed solely to Government contracts, because it would in effect be imposing a rate of wages in certain contracts in relation to private firms which have no relation to Government contracts. But the consideration whether those firms entering for Government contracts are, in their private relations with their clients, and especially in their relations with their employés, what in my opinion can be regarded as good firms, is a very material fact as to whether those tenders would be accepted by the Department.
You must depend on the Government Departments to use reasonable discretion. I am quite sure that in the last few years hon. Members have fewer complaints of the class of contractors who have been accepted by the Government. In my experience in my own Department I have only had one, and I think we agree that if a mistake had been made it was not a surprising one under the circumstances. On the whole the quality of the contractors taken by the Government is a high one. It is important in all these cases we should screw up the quality of the consideration shown by contractors to their employés generally; screw it up on fair and just lines both to employer and employed. Under the new terms which are laid down by the Government I believe that great gain will be secured to labour throughout the country, and that an example will be set for employers and a scale set generally for labour which we have not had before. Under these circumstances I hope hon. Members and the House may consider that they will contribute to the success of their views by accepting with unanimity in all parts of the House the proposal which we lay before them.
I beg to ask the leave of the House to withdraw my Resolution.
The hon. Member's intention will be attained by accepting the Amendment.
Before the Resolution is put I wish to state as a life long Free Trader that this Fair Wages Resolution is not in accordance with Free Trade. I have always voted in support of the Fair Wages Clause because it is the duty of every Government to pay a fair rate of wages to the people they employ. When this House of Commons in its judgment decides that protection shall be given to labour in the form as to the standard rate of wages, I cannot for the life of me see how the Government can on the other hand go abroad and place their contracts having placed a disability on British manufacturers and allow the foreigner to pay a less rate of wages.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question," put and negatived.
Question put:—"That those words be there added."
was about to address the House, when
rose in his place and claimed to move that the question be now put.
Question, "That the question be now put," put and agreed to.
Question:—"That the proposed words be there inserted"—put accordingly and agreed to.
Main Question (as amended) put, and agreed to.
Supply (3rd March)
[REPORT.]
Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905
Further consideration of postponed Resolution:—"That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £100,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1909, for contributions in aid of expenses under the Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905."
Before the interruption of business, I rise to move a reduction of this Vote, and in doing so I desire to make it clear that it is not in any way a personal attack on the President of the Local Government Board. What we desire is that certain points which were left obscure in the debate which took place in Committee should be to some extent cleared up. We want to know if the right hon. Gentleman is allowed this extra money, whether he is prepared in some way or another to do something to carry out the Act in regard to labour exchanges. We know that legislation is promised in that direction, but I should like to point out that in regard to this matter very strong condemnation is contained in the minority report of the Poor Law Commission as to the manner in which this part of the Act of 1905 has been administered. Further, I should like to point out that the reply of the right hon. Gentleman in Committee is not satisfactory. He stated that eighteen months ago—a most extraordinary proceeding it seemed to me on the part of the Government—it was decided that the labour exchanges should be handed over to the Board of Trade. That means that for the eighteen months prior to that decision being come to the law was allowed to lie entirely in abeyance, and that for the eighteen months subsequently it has been still allowed to lie in abeyance. I desire to point out that we do not know what the extent of this problem of unemployment is. We might have known it had these labour exchanges been in force for the three years since the Act was passed. This question of labour exchanges is extremely important, and if the Act had been carried out we should not now be proposing to spend Parliamentary time this Session in doing what might have been done previously.
The second point I wish to call attention to is that of rural colonies. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to administer the fund in such a way in regard to these colonies as shall improve their conditions? I should like to say that here again the minority report of the Poor Law Commission strongly condemns the administration of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to these colonies. The reply we have received in regard to that is insufficient, and the question of cost is no answer. The question of cost with regard to these colonies would certainly not have been so great if the spirit and purpose of the Act had not been departed from. I do not propose to argue upon the question of the efficiency of these colonies. They were started for a certain object; they were an experiment, and that experiment has not been carried out to the full as it ought to have been.
I wish to raise another point. During the course of the debate in Committee it appeared that there was a large difference between the estimate of the cost per man of putting people in these colonies which was given by the right hon. Gentleman and the estimates which have been supplied to Members on these benches. I will not say which is correct, but we ought to have the difference cleared up, and we ought to know where we stand with regard to this matter.
Perhaps the most important thing I have to say with regard to the administration is this: Last year, when employment was at a very great crisis, we were told by the Prime Minister that the Act would in future be administered with sympathy and with elasticity. I should like to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he considers that the creation of fourteen more distress committees is a sufficient answer to that. The Minority report says that the special grants made by Parliament each year are clogged with so many conditions that many claimants find it impracticable to obtain any advantage from them. We asked for new legislation, which was promised in the King's Speech of 1906. The question we have to ask is one which I do not think can be altogether defended by any one, and we are not surprised that the President of the Local Government Board should say that the work which some of the men do is unsatisfactory. We know that prior to the Act of 1905 the municipalities of 20 years before had been carrying out works of a similar character. It was well known that the work done under those circumstances was not so good and was more costly than work under ordinary contract. But I should like to point out that the carrying on of this policy of grants was the deliberate work of the Government, and therefore we cannot be held responsible, nor can the House as a whole, of its partial failure. The Government cannot be surprised, as we are not, at the result. We complain of the inadequacy of the treatment of this problem as proposed by the Government. Is it to be by private generosity—and generosity has done something to assist in the solution of this problem—by grants—and grants have done a little, or by loans, and we admit they had some effect in mitigating the problem? These are all admittedly insufficient, and we do not think they carry out the Prime Minister's intentions. What did the Prime Minister say? He said "the Government are fully alive to the importance of providing work for the unemployed in the present emergency." But that does not mean some of the unemployed or a few of the unemployed, but, as we think, practically the whole body of the unemployed who are get-at-able. If it means a few of the unemployed we admit some progress has been made. But what are the facts with regard to-this matter. The right hon. Gentleman I said that in January. 1908, work was found for 12,916; in December, 1908, for 31,000; in January, 1909, for 39,000, and he hoped shortly it would rise to 50,000; that the Central unemployment body in London had found employment in February, 1908, for 2,797, and in February, 1909, for 6,212. In London there was 39,622 for whom no work was found at all; in West Ham 3,572 for whom no work was found. I notice in the "Manchester Guardian" of today there is an extremely interesting statement in an article by Professor Chapman and Mr. H. Holdsworth, in which it is stated that those districts in which the Distress Committees have assuaged distress among the industrious is remarkably small. In Lancashire 25.6 were relieved, the average days employed were 11.2, and the total wages per man 36s. 5d., and the average wage per day 3s. 3d.; in London 14.9 only were relieved, the average days employed 12.2, the total wages per man 45s. 9d., the average wage per day 3s. 9d. England and Wales, 15 per cent. were relieved; 10.5 were the average days employed, 35s. 11d. the total wages per man, and 3s. 5d. the average wages per day. So we see that both in regard to the number of men relieved and the large number who were not relieved this is a very serious matter, and one which the House ought to take into its most serious consideration before it grants this £100,000. The last point I want to make is with regard to the future. It is a very serious position. In Manchester the Distress Committee have stated that the relief work, with the exception of the women's department, will be stopped on the 31st March, and it is stated that this is a result of the decision of the right hon. Gentleman. "The Manchester Guardian" says that unemployment is every bit as bad to-day as ever, and declares we are face to face with a growing and a terrible state of things, in which many men with families, who have shown themselves diligent workmen, will have completed their 16 weeks allowed by the Distress Committee will be presented with the alternative of starvation of the poor law. The right hon. Gentleman says the agitation is dying down. Yes, it may be, on the surface. The agitation was but the surf of this surging sea of misery. The deeps do not cry out—they are inarticulate. It is the constant roar of this surging sea which beats in our ears, and for which we are endeavouring to-night to do more than this £100,000. I am moving a reduction, I would much rather move a very big increase. This question of unemployment we cannot allow to drop. It is the most serious question of the day. It is the central malady of our civilisation, it knocks at the door of Parliament with persistent force, and it will continue to do so until something more is done than a policy of grants, of which this is only one. I beg to move.
, in seconding the Motion, said: I am most unwilling to take up the time of this House at this hour, but feeling very strongly as the representative of one of the Manchester Divisions on the subject we have just had broached by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, I want to supplement what he said about the Manchester situation. When we considered the question in Committee a few days ago, I pressed a question on the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Local Government Board, and more than once asked for some assurance as to whether the statement which had been given out as well founded, viz., that his administrative action was to have the effect of closing down whatever relief is at present being conducted by the Manchester Distress Committee? It may be remembered that I pressed the question on the second occasion, and we were told in reply that one thing at once should be taken. I would like to have an answer to-night not as to whether the work is to be closed down practically by the President's orders, because we know what the answer would be, but I want to ask whether in view of the situation in centres like Manchester he can see his way to make these regulations as elastic as he has promised they should be made, or whether he can say if he can fit any regulation under the terms of the Act to the actual situation in Manchester itself. The Act does not declare that the man must have only worked for 16 weeks in the year—there are 52 weeks in the year—and ever so many of those who have to be catered for by this form of legislation, roust work in those weeks and in the period during which the assistance of the Government is required. It could be easily administered. I do not suppose it will be denied that the state of trade now is worse than when this particular Act was passed, and instead of the Act being narrowed down by sweeping regulations or administrative action, it should be broadened. We know that Acts of Parliament can be made elastic. We have had an instance of that here to-night in the discussion which has recently been closed.
The Act itself therefore, if fully applied, would better meet the needs of the existing situation. So bad is the state of things in Manchester that the local authorities felt it necessary recently to organise and carry out a census of the unemployed, and though the information resulting from that census is not quite complete, we are assured by those who have had a hand in this work that it will be shown that now there are 20,000 able-bodied persons unemployed in the city of Manchester. In face of that fact, are you to tell the Distress Committee that a few hundreds or thousands whom you might be able to relieve, if assisted by this House, are also to be turned adrift, and that this large army of the workless is to be further increased by the action of the right hon. Gentleman? Speaking with the deepest feeling, I say these men are faced with a situation of despair in view of the season—we have not yet approached anything like spring conditions, we have not yet approached a state of things where there is a prospect of better opportunities of employment—in view of there being no signs of any immediate improvement in the state of trade in the country and in the consequent increase of opportunity for work, the right hon. gentleman cannot remain so inactive as he has done in reference to these demands which are being made upon him. It is not £100,0C0 which he ought to be asking for in face of this situation, but nothing short of a million or two of money. A greater sum than that can be found for worse purposes. At this stage of the increasing distress, and in face of the willingness of so many distress committees to use the opportunity which the Act would give them if permitted, by money grants and by regulations, the time has arrived when we can no longer wait, and when the right hon. Gentleman should use every possible power at his command to assist and not to destroy the efforts of the distress committees as he has been doing.
Amendment moved: "To leave out £100,000 and insert £99,000."—[ Mr. Wardle. ]
Question proposed: "That £100,000 stand part of the Resolution."
There are practically two points which have been raised in the debate this evening to which it is necessary for me to make a reply, and in so doing to supplement what has been said by previous speakers and by myself last week. The first point is that raised by the hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat— namely, the condition of things in Manchester. He asked: "Are we to take it from the President of the Local Government Board that the works now in process of execution at Manchester are to arbitrarily close on March 31st?" To which I have to make the same answer that I made last week—that whilst we have regarded this as more or less a winter Act, to operate between November and March, roughly, the Local Government Board never has, does not, and will not arbitrarily construe these four months as beginning in October and finishing on March 31st. On the contrary, there have been many instances in which works have gone on till April, in some cases May, and in two or three cases as late as June, and we have generally met distress committees in a fair and generous way in regard to this matter. We have often extended the weeks from 16 to 18 and 20, and, in exceptional cases, we have extended it to 24. As I am at present in communication with the Manchester Distress Committee, the hon. Member can rest assured that the Local Government Board, which has granted £13,000 to Manchester, and done its best by almost weekly communication to help the distress committee and genuine unemployed, will put no arbitrary interpretation on the 16 weeks.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has any observations to make on the report of the Manchester Distress Committee?
No. I have nothing to add, because I cannot go beyond the answer of the chairman of the distress committee given only 10 days ago. "In answer to a question, Mr. Burns would not lay it down that the distress committee could not carry on operations for a longer period than 16 weeks. Mr. Burns said he thought it a fair inference from the Act that its operations were intended only to cover the four winter months." Since then we have had no definite application from the Manchester Distress Committee to extend the period, and in the event of the Committee making an application we shall deal with it this year as we have done with various other distress committees and with Manchester itself on a previous occasion. There was a new and interesting point raised by the hon. Member for Stockport with regard to labour exchanges. He said that 18 months ago it had been decided that labour exchanges, although not officially announced, would be transferred from the Local Government Board to the Board of Trade. I will let the member for Stockport into the infliction of what even a few months ago was a secret, and say that immediately we had to administer the Unemployed Workmen Act of 1905 I communicated to the late Prime Minister my own view about this matter. It was this: If labour exchanges, whether under the Act of 1894 in London, the Act of 1904 for the country or under the Unemployed Workmen Act, were to be successfully applied to the problems of unemployment there was only one Department that ought to have the management and the administration of labour bureaux and labour exchanges. We saw that it was practically impossible through the agency of the Local Government Board to get County Councils to do anything like so effectively what could be done through the Board of Trade, the best Department in all respects for all forms of information and communications with regard to labour. In saying that I carry with me every man who knows anything about the labour problem. It has a Labour Gazette, thousands of correspondents, and its machinery and equipment for this work are infinitely better than the Local Government Board possesses. It frees the treatment of the unemployed problem from the penal conditions that attach or would be attached to it if the Home Office had to deal with it, with the pauper conditions that must attach to it to some extent if the Local Government Board deals with it. We saw nearly three years ago that the Local Government Board was wise in asking the Board of Trade to take this matter up, and we have decided—the President of the Board of Trade and myself—to remove all the powers relating to labour bureaux and exchanges and distress committees, in so far as they deal with information relating to the unemployed, from the Local Government Board, and to transfer them to the Board of Trade. With its machinery the Board of Trade can deal with the new labour exchanges in a manner that would be impossible to the Local Government Board. That is the position we take up. Then the hon. member proceeded to ask why is it that for eighteen months before that nothing was done in regard to this matter by the Local Government Board to stimulate the local authorities in the counties to set up labour exchanges? I do not blame the hon. Member in this matter, because he is a busy man, and it is impossible for him to know everything that goes on in matters with which he is more or less acquainted, and Ministers exist to be heckled, pilloried, and queried. I am not complaining, and probably the hon. Member says nothing has been done in the hope that we shall be able to tell him what has been done. Sections 2 and 3 of the Unemployed Workmen Act requires that every council of a county or county borough where there is no distress committee shall constitute a special committee to collect information, and to establish and take over registries, labour bureaux, etc.
The hon. Member for Stockport wants to know what has been done under the Act. The Local Government Board called the attention of these Councils to these provisions in the Act by circular, and shortly after that we issued regulations containing provisions as to labour exchanges, and these were made applicable to special committees as well as to ordinary distress committees. We did not think it was advisable that the special committees which were set up should labour in the dark, and, therefore, labour in vain, and so we authorised one of our best inspectors in 1906 to tour through the country and get together the whole of the facts connected with labour bureaux and labour exchanges, and they were embodied in a very useful report, a copy of which was sent to every County Council, Urban District Council, and every authority, large or small, that had any relationship or connection with the Unemployed Workmen Act, through labour exchanges or bureaux. The hon. Member will find in the report of Mr. Lowry, in the first annual report under the Unemployed Workmen Act, on page 8, further references stimulating and advising County Councils on this particular matter.
Now, unfortunately, under the Act, no duty devolves upon the Local Government Board to look after these committees. It is not our fault: it is not in the original Act. But by circular, by special report on the Labour Bureaux, and by communicating, we have done our best with regard to the matter. There is no default-power in the Local Government Board to compel them to act in any way. But we made inquiries as to the action taken, and I ask the hon. Member for Stockport to listen to these figures.
In 48 counties to which a circular was issued and a report sent, special committees have been set up—48 out of 62. In 9 out of 10 small county boroughs special committees have been appointed. No County Council has yet established an exchange, although they have sent up for a special committee. We have, unfortunately, no power to make them set up an exchange, as default-powers given to us would have enabled us to do. But Northumberland and one or two other counties have acquired information from the other minor local authorities. They have constituted labour registers, employment registers, in 10 county boroughs.
I promise hon. Members that all the information I can get, other than that I now give, as to what action has been taken, I will convert, probably into an answer to a question put down; or, perhaps better still, it might form an appendix to the Unemployed Workmen Act Report for 1908–9 now in process of compilation, and which will be issued as soon as possible after 31st March.
I come to another point. Out of the grants we have not—because we have not the power or authority—voted money for the establishment of labour bureaux, or labour exchanges. The amount of money is not large, but as every one of the distress committees—they number 102—have got the power out of the rate to establish labour bureaux or labour exchanges, there is not much in the point that the Local Government Board has not given a grant for the purpose. So far as I can gather, I have not yet been asked by a local authority to vote a grant specially to set up a labour bureau or labour exchanges. We believe that the grant, in the main, was voted by the House of Commons to provide work for unemployed men, and that the rates and voluntary contributions ought to provide for bureaux, exchanges, and special committees. With respect to the way we have interpreted the Act in this regard I can only say that as to both migration and emigration we consider that we have gone further than the Act warrants, in helping by loan or grant all the authorities in these particular cases. I am very glad my hon. Friend, the Member for Stockport, made no local complaint as to the way in which the Local Government Beard has treated his district. May I state a special case and give it general application? Just as we have treated Stockport, so we have treated every other district. I find, on looking to the hon. Member's own district of Stockport, they asked for £84 and £158, and they received every penny of those sums. On December 24th they asked for £165, every penny of which was given to them. On 31st January of this year they asked for £631 for the Broadstone road improvements. Before giving those grants we sanctioned alterations in the recreation grounds, street improvements, and other works costing a sum of £23,776, for the hon. Member's own particular district. I mention this instance because it is a sample of the way in which we have dealt with the 67 or 68 districts with which the Local Government Board has been in communication. It may be interesting to the hon. Member for Stockport to know that no later than 14th January I received a letter horn the distress committee of Stockport expressing their "grateful acknowledgment of the consideration with which the President of the Local Government Board has dealt with their requirements." I could go through letter after letter from the various distress committees in which are acknowledged our promptitude and sympathy, and the readiness with which my officers and myself have gone out of our way to help them by grant and by loan, by migration or emigration. The hon. Member for Stockport made references to West Ham. Perhaps he will allow me to quote from a communication sent by the West Ham Committee who, if certain newspapers are to be regarded as authorities, one would think were in a state of perpetual warfare with the President of the Local Government Board. In their communication they refer to the substantial support by the Local Government Board in successive applications for grants in aid, and to the ready and useful sympathy of the President of the Local Government Board. It is a very significant fact that Members in every quarter of the House, representing districts with which I have been in communication, and which have similarly expressed themselves through their distress committees, have incidentally refrained from dissociating themselves from the cordial agreement which has existed between those committees and myself. The hon. Member for Manchester can reply upon this that between now and the conclusion of the financial year, between now and the closing down of the Manchester, Salford, Liverpool, West Ham, Stockport or Wolverhampton Works, I am not going to allow criticism, well-intentioned but at times misinformed, to stand between me and my proper duty to those distress committees, and that is, with the money at our disposal, and the means at our command, to give as much money as we can to the largest number of men possible, so that the maximum can be conferred upon the unemployed from this date until the whole of the work is perfected.
There is one point on which I think I am entitled to a clearer statement. Are we to understand from what has been said that the distress committees are free to continue those relief works beyond the 31st March. Is the President aware that the Manchester Distress Committee has got a proposal for consideration at its next meeting tabled by the Chairman, as he states, owing to information received from the Local Government Board to the effect that all relief works close on 31st March. I listened carefully to what was said, and was not quite able to follow if they were free to continue after that date.
Here in London a similar notice has been had from the superintendents of all the big schemes that they were to come to an end on 31st March. The second point is whether the 16 weeks' regulation or limitation is to be enforced. There also Manchester is a case that supplies an illustration that they were definitely informed by the Local Government Board that men could not be employed beyond the 16 weeks. As a consequence of that statement, the distress committee dismissed a number of men whose period of employment exceeded 16 weeks, but whom they were anxious to keep on. The House may remember the Manchester Distress Committee wished to employ men longer than 16 weeks, but not to provide a full week's work, but give three or four days' work so as to make the relief extend over a longer period, but the Local Government Board insisted on the 16 weeks as the utmost limit. Even if only one day per week the men could not exceed 16 weeks. I understood the regulation had been relaxed, and that the distress committees, as in Scotland, where there is no limitation under the same Act, were free to use their discretion in giving relief for a longer period.
With the leave of the House I desire to reply to the questions put by the hon. Member who asks are the works to be closed on 31st March. I say for the third or fourth time no. He then asks have the distress committees power to continue the works. Subject to the approval of the Local Government Board from 31st March my answer is yes. Only to-day when a distress committee had not been able or did not find it necessary to employ men I have found it necessary to give five or six weeks' extension beyond 31st March. The hon. Member is entirely mistaken if he thinks the Manchester Distress Committee got a direction—
To put the matter right the Chairman of the Manchester Committee in tabling his motion gave as his reason for doing so something said to him by the President of the Local Government Board.
It is not necessary to labour that, I have the actual words before me. Judging by the diminution of numbers in the labour bureau in Manchester, I am pleased to say there has been a substantial decline in the men registered and in the applicants for work, and I trust that Manchester will not require to set the number of men at work that they previously had. But, in the event of such circumstances arising, the Manchester Distress Committee and I understand each other very well, and I shall be only too pleased to help them if necessary.
With regard to this £100,000, will there not be a substantial balance at the end of the month? The right hon. Gentleman has just promised to be as fair in his treatment of the town I represent as he has been to the district of Stockport, but it is on account of what seems to be a tightening of the purse strings I desire to speak. In my town the distress is as keen to-day, if not more so, as it was twelve months ago. The number of unemployed is as great, and the rates are being increased, with the result that it is difficult to move the ratepayers to put in hand schemes of work for the unemployed. In spite of that, we have moved the Borough Council to the extent of launching a £11,000 sewage scheme, with the sole object of giving employment; but the right hon. Gentleman seems to have swept away all his preceding generosity, and for this £11,000 scheme we have a grant of £350. The result is that the committee in charge of the work and the distress committee met on Monday last and decided that the scheme could not be proceeded with. The right hon. Gentleman says he is going to be as generous as he can. If he wants to do something on behalf of unemployment, and to encourage municipalities to set up work of a useful character upon which these men can be employed, I would ask him to be as good in regard to this work as he has been in regard to preceding works.
May I tell the hon. Member that the grant of £350 to which he refers as a total contribution was only sent with regard to one particular job. As he has done me the honour of saying that I have been very generous in the past, surely he can take our past fair treatment as some guarantee that if there is distress we will continue our fairness and consideration.
I am very pleased to hear the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman. But the Health Committee and the Distress Committee certainly took the contribution as a total grant in regard to this particular scheme. I shall do my best to remove that impression, and I hope we may anticipate—as the right hon. Gentleman leads us to infer—that it is only a small initial sum, and that a substantial grant will follow if the Committee are prepared to go on with the work.
It was not my intention to take part in the debate, and I would not have done so but for a statement made by the President of the Local Government Board to the effect that there had been no complaints in respect to their treatment from the distress committees. I represent a division of Glasgow, and probably if I were to go into the circumstances under which that city has been treated, I should get no reply, because I remember that on a previous occasion the President of the Local Government Board thought it sufficient to say that that was on somebody else's beat. I wish to enter my protest that, on this occasion, there is nobody here to represent the Scotch Office even if I thought fit to present the matter to the House. I wish to say that the relationship between the Scotch Local Government Board and the Glasgow Distress Committee has been one of strain during nearly the whole of the time I have been in this House. The Committee have been constantly on the verge of giving it up in disgust.
Question proposed: "That £100,000 stand part of the said Resolution."
Question put and agreed to.
Resolution agreed to.
Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill
Motion made and question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a third time."
said he wished to put a question to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. The hon. Gentleman yesterday denied that any portion of the £910,000 authorised by this Bill can be spent on any matter other than old age pensions. I find a note on page 558 of Sir Thomas Erskine May's "Parliamentary Practice" to the effect that the power of the Treasury to use for any service a Vote which has been agreed to by the House may be exercised under a Consolidation Act. Therefore, I submit that, unless Sir Thomas Erskine May is wrong, this £910,000, or a portion of it, can be used for other purposes than that of old age pensions. I want to know whether the Secretary to the Treasury adheres to what he stated yesterday. As the hon. Gentleman is not here, I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned.
As Patronage Secretary to the Treasury, although I am not responsible for this Vote, perhaps I may be allowed to say that there is no intention whatever that any portion of this sum should be devoted to any other purpose than that of old age pensions. So far as I am aware, this Consolidated Fund Bill arises out of the Resolution passed in Committee of Ways and Means, which directs that the £910,000 is for old age pensions. It is, therefore, restricted to that particular object.
I rise to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware, when he says that the Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means hypothecated this particular sum to old age pensions, that the particular Resolution authorised the payment of £910,000 towards the service of the financial year ending 31st March, 1909? My recollection is that this Resolution in no way indicated any particular object to which this money was to be devoted.
There are four stages in ordinary Supply.
The hon. Gentleman has not answered my question, which was: Will the Report of Ways and Means hypothecate this £910,000 to old age pensions?
I tried to show there were four distinct stages, and it is only with respect of old age pensions that these four distinct stages are completed. Therefore the money cannot be applied to anything but old age pensions. Three stages are completed in other cases, but it is only in regard to old age pensions that the four are completed.
Is the whole £910,000 to be spent between now and the 31st March, and if he does not spend it all has it to be surrendered to the Sinking Fund?
I can assure the hon. Member no money is taken that will not be spent.
On old age pensions?
So I understand.
How is it that in twelve weeks you have only spent £1,200,000, and in two weeks you are going to spend £910,000, unless it is that the Treasury is insolvent?
The Noble Lord is aware, as most people are, that less was spent on old age pensions in the first week than in the second and third and fourth weeks. Proportionately there was an increase as the weeks went on.
The hon. Gentleman has admitted my contention that the Report of Ways and Means specially devoted this sum for old age pensions. Having admitted that, how does he contend that on this particular stage it would not be open to us to discuss any question that arises upon the Votes already voted?
It is quite clear. The Vote for no other service has been completed except that which relates to old age pensions, and that cannot be applied to any other service, and, therefore, it is not competent to discuss any other service except that authorised by the House.
Then after this fourth stage has been completed then it will be competent for the Government to use this £910,000 for other purposes than old age pensions?
During the whole of the speeches with reference to this matter it has been stated more or less distinctly by the Government that the intention was to devote the whole of this £910,000 to old age pensions, but when we asked, which we did in all good faith, for an assurance that the money would not be devoted to any other purpose, we did not succeed in getting that assurance, although if the Government had had any intention to strictly adhere to what was more or less generally understood and which in a more or less indefinite manner they had stated, there ought to have been not the slightest difficulty in giving the assurance asked for. We are in this position to-night, that although it is perfectly true, that the other votes which have got to certain stages have not all got to the fourth stage, as described by the Financial Secretary, yet it is obvious that within the next three or four days four of those votes will get to the fourth stage, considerably before the 31st of March. Therefore the Government have £910,000 in hand and have evaded giving a distinct assurance that this money would not be used for any other purpose than that which it was asked for and which it was stated it would be wanted for, and they will be in a position before the 31st of March to go and use this money for any of these purposes the votes for which have passed these four stages. If the explanation made by the Financial Secretary is correct—I believe it is—it is what we all understood in regard to these financial matters—the Government, if we pass this Bill, will find themselves in possession of £910,000 obtained for one distinct purpose, and they will have before the 31st of March four other objects, making five, on which they can go and use that money if they like. Having regard to your ruling, and the ruling also of Mr. Caldwell in the Chair last night, that it was impossible to put the words "old age pensions" into the first clause of this Bill because it would transgress the title—having regard to that ruling we have not succeeded in getting it in the Act that old age pensions are to be the only objects for which this money is to be used. What we ask for, therefore, is a plain statement from the Financial Secretary that this money will not be used except for old age pensions. If he will .g'ive that assurance now it will be accepted, and if he had given that assurance before there would not have been this difficulty raised. I ask him to give that assurance now.
Bill read a third time.
I desire to be recorded as voting against it.
You can only be recorded in a division list.
And it being after half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing-Order.
Adjourned at twenty minutes after Twelve o'clock.