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Commons Chamber

Volume 2: debated on Thursday 11 March 1909

House of Commons

Thursday, March 11, 1909

Savings Banks (Ireland) Return

Savings Banks (Ireland)—Return containing the following tables:—

1. Table arranged according to counties showing for each Post Office Savings Bank in Ireland remaining open on the 31st day of December, 1907 (1) the number of accounts of depositors therein; and (2) the total amount, inclusive of interest, standing to the credit of those accounts on the 31st day of December of the years 1881, 1896, and 1907 respectively, with a summary showing the like particulars for each county and for all Ireland.

2. Table arranged according to counties showing for each trustee savings bank in Ireland remaining open on the 20th day of November, 1907 (1), the number of accounts of depositors therein; and (2) the total amount, inclusive of interest, standing to the credit of those accounts on the 20th day of November of the years 1881, 1896, and 1907 respectively, with a summary showing the like particulars for each county and for all Ireland.

3. Table for each county and for all Ireland showing (1) the number of depositors' accounts and the total amount of deposits in Post Office and trustee savings banks combined on the dates given in Tables 1 and 2 in the years 1881, 1896, and 1907 respectively; (2) the percentage by which the total deposits so arrived at for 1907 exceeded their total for 1881; (3) the percentage by which the total rental dealt with under the Land Law (Ireland) Acts in the period from the 22nd day of August, 1881, to the 31st day of March, 1908, has been reduced for a first statutory term; (4) the percentage by which the total first term rental dealt with under the said Acts in the period ended the 31st day of March, 1908, has been further reduced for a second statutory term; and (5) the percentage by which the total rental which has been revised for two statutory terms under the said Acts in the said period has been reduced.

4. Table showing the total amount of the deposits and private balances (exclu- sive of Government deposits and London accounts) in the joint-stock banks in Ireland on the 30th day of June in the years 1881, 1896, and 1908 respectively, and the percentage by which such deposits and balances on the 30th day of June, 1908, exceeded their amount on the 30th day of June, 1881.

Motion agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Successor to Sir John Harrington

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he proposes to appoint a successor to Sir John Harrington in Abyssinia?

The question of appointing a successor to Sir John Harrington is under consideration; the business of the Legation is meanwhile being conducted as usual by the Charge d'Affaires.

Cutting Telegraph Line in Persia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any report to the effect that the Indo-European telegraph line has been cut by the Shah of Persia's troops between Tabriz and Julfa; and, if so, what steps he has taken in the matter?

As I stated in my reply to a question from the hon. Member for the Ripon Division on Tuesday, the answer to the first question is in the affirmative, and to the second that the Russian Government, who are more directly interested, have, I understand, already made the necessary representations to the Persian Government, and that it is proposed to await the result. With reference to the statement in my reply to the hon. Member for the Ripon Division that the company is not a British one, I should explain that this is not technically correct, the company is incorporated under the British Companies Act, but it works under concessions from the Russian and Persian Governments, the concessions from the Persian Government having been obtained through the Russian Government. The British Government has no official representative on the Board of the company. Care must be taken to distinguish between the Indo-European Telegraph Company's line and the lines of the Indo-European Telegraph Department, which are entirely different systems, and have a separate origin.

You have not yet informed the House whether it has been amended or not.

No. As far as British capital is invested, if there is any claim for damages it will receive our support in the ordinary way in which private or British enterprise does in any country.

Is it not a fact that the whole of this telegraphic line is worked by the department of the India Office east of Teheran? If, therefore, the communications with India are cut off, that is certainly a subject for representation on behalf of the British India Company.

The communications with India are not cut nor are the communications with Teheran. This is not the line of communications on which we depend or which we prefer for our own communications.

Sir Eldon Gorst's Report

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state at what date the Report upon Egyptian affairs by Sir Eldon Gorst for the past year may be expected; and whether he has any information as to the inclusion in that Report of any announcement of a constructive policy in the matter of the appeal for the establishment of a modern national university in Egypt?

It is not possible to fix any date for the appearance of the Report. I have no information as to whether it will contain any announcement of the nature mentioned, but no doubt I shall receive the Report at about the usual time in the spring, and it will be laid in due course.

Cairo Police Changes

asked whether the new Cairo police commandant has demanded that all the Kism Mamours shall be transferred from the Civil to the Military Department and shall wear the uniform of the latter; and, if so, upon what grounds the measure has been taken?

I have received no information on the subject, but the matter is one of internal administration in which I do not think it would be desirable for His Majesty's Government to interfere.

Suppose there should be found to be ground for grave dissatisfaction and reprehension among the natives at the transformation of a Civil Department into a Military, does not that constitute a ground for investigation?

Of course, if it turns cut on further investigation that the matter is of wider scope and of larger importance than I assume it to be, I will reconsider it.

Sanitation in Cairo

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that, after several refusals, the Egyptian Government have recognised the expediency of establishing committees of natives and others to aid the authorities in the repression of crime, he will advise the British Consul-General to recommend the appointment at Cairo of a committee or committees of competent persons interested in sanitation, to promote the co-operation of the public with the authorities in the working of the forthcoming drainage scheme for Cairo?

That is a matter which I consider should be left entirely to the discretion of the Egyptian Government.

Tobacco Monopoly in Egypt

asked whether the Egyptian Government are contemplating the establishment of a tobacco monopoly in Egypt, and the concession of such monopoly to the British-American Tobacco Company or any other body?

I have received no information to this effect, but I will inquire as to the fact.

Slavery in Portuguese Colonies

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if there are in force any treaties between this country and Portugal by which Portugal binds herself to put an end to slavery in her Colonies; whether, in the year 1838, representations were made by Lord Melbourne to Portugal to the effect that England would not longer refrain from taking effectual measures for preventing slavery in Portuguese territory; and whether he can say what effectual measures have been taken in order to bring about the discontinuance of this traffic?

With regard to the first two parts of the question, the answer is in the affirmative. With regard to the third part of the question, if the hon. Member alludes to the system of contract labour in force in San Thomé and Principé I have nothing to add to the replies given to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury on 11th December last, and to the hon. Member for Gloucester, Forest of Dean, on the 2nd instant.

What are the treaties between this country and Portugal which prohibit slavery?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can say what is the death rate amongst the slaves employed in the cocoa plantations of San Thomé and Principe; whether he has any information to show that slaves that are brought down shackled to the coast, and those who are incapable of going further, are shot down; and whether he has recommended any firms who manufacture chocolate or cocoa in this country to continue to use for the present slave-grown cocoa, as by that means they are in a position to bring special pressure to bear upon the Portuguese Government?

The system in force upon the cocoa plantations of San Thomé and Principe is described as contract labour. The latest statistics in the possession of His Majesty's Government give the mortality among the labourers in San Thomé as about 3.1 per cent., and in Principé as about 11.7 per cent. With regard to the second and third parts of the question, the answer is in the negative; I have not advised any firms as to where they should purchase cocoa.

Can the right hon. Gentleman throw any light on the difference between the death rates—3 per cent, in one case and 11 in the other?

Are we to understand that he does not consider that there is slavery in these particular districts?

These particular places are not British territories. We are not responsible for the system described as being contract labour. It has been the subject of discussion, and it has been stated frequently that it is not satisfactory, and reports have been published showing that even now it is under the consideration of the Portuguese Government. We have from time to time been in communication with them with regard to introducing such reforms as will remove the reproach from the system.

Have we no power under our treaty to insist on this contract system being terminated?

The hon. Member must realise with regard to the enforcement of any treaty that the first stage is always diplomatic negotiation. We are in that stage now.

Have you entered into communication with the Portuguese Government on the subject?

We have been waiting for the result of inquiries by the Portuguese Government themselves. It is a very old subject, and has been receiving consideration with a view to further communications.

Evicted Tenants (Notification of Appeal)

asked the Solicitor-General for Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners take any steps to notify an evicted tenant of the date on which an appeal lodged by a landlord or landlord's representative against an order to acquire an untenanted holding is to be heard; and, if not, will the Commissioners undertake in future to give notice to evicted tenants of the date of hearing, and also of the grounds upon which the appeal is based?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that in all cases in which it is proposed to acquire, under the Evicted Tenants Act, a holding now in the landlord's occupation and to reinstate the former tenant, they will give notice to the tenant of any petition filed by the owner, and of the date fixed for its hearing. This has already been done in any cases in which the Commissioners considered it desirable.

Intimidation Charge (Roscommon)

I desire to ask the hon. Member whether it was by his directions that in the case of several men who were charged at Frenchpark, Roscommon, on 3rd March, with intimidating John Connor proceedings were instituted under the Petty Sessions Act; whether there is any power to bind to the peace under that Statute; and whether in this case the accused persons were made amenable?

The proceedings in his case were quite regular. They were taken by summons before the magistrates at Petty Sessions, but the jurisdiction to bind to the peace does not arise under that Statute. The cases are at present sub judice.

Estates Commissioners

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can do anything to hasten a reply to a question directed to the Estates Commissioners, of which an acknowledgment has been given that it is under consideration; and will he say how long a simple question should be under consideration before it is answered.

The Estates Commissioners received upwards of 50,000 letters last year. Some of the letters received related to estates which will not be reached in their order of priority to be dealt with for some considerable time, and cannot be considered until the estate has been inspected and ruled on by the Commissioners. Other letters are considered and replied to as soon as practicable.

Land Purchase Annuities (Arrears)

I wish to ask the Solicitor-General for Ireland whether the Local Government Board have informed the Cork County Council that they are in receipt of certificates from the Irish Land Commission and the Commissioners of National Debt showing the actual arrears in purchase annuities under the Land Purchase Acts, 1891, 1896, and 1903, which must be deducted from the estate duty grant payable to the Council next month amounting to £5,641; whether he can say how much of this amount is in default in respect to the years 1891–1896 and 1903 respectively; whether he has seen a copy of the Resolution of the Cork County Council, passed unanimously at its last meeting on the 4th inst., requesting that the Council should be furnished by the Land Commission with particulars as to the names of such persons in this county as are in arrears, number of years' purchase in each case, and whether on first or second term rents, what steps the Commissioners are taking for the recovery of these arrears, if arrears be recovered will amount be placed to the credit of the Council; and whether the Land Commissioners will furnish the required particulars for the information and guidance of the Council?

As regards the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to a question asked by the hon. Member for Waterford on 25th February, in which full details of the matters raised appear. I have seen a copy of the Resolution referred to. Immediate steps are taken in the county courts at the earliest possible date for the recovery of arrears, and the amounts so recovered or otherwise paid are duly paid over to the Guarantee Fund, and credited to the counties. Full particulars of the matters referred to by the hon. Member are to be found in the Annual Report of the Land Commissioners, which is available for the information of the Councils.

The reply given by the Chief Secretary, to which I have alluded, deals with the other points. Details of the arrears due are given under their respective headings. Any action must be taken by the Irish Land Commission.

The hon. Member has not answered my question with regard to the number of years' purchase under which the annuitants have incurred these liabilities.

Those particulars appear in the annual report of the Land Commission, to which I have referred.

Will the Cork County Council have any claim in regard to holdings in respect of which they will be called upon to pay arrears?

Order, order. Hon. Members must give notice of these difficult questions.

Massareene Evicted Tenants

asked the Solicitor-General for Ireland if any progress has been made since last Session in the work of restoring to their farms the balance of the Massa-reene evicted tenants; and, if not, whether he can state what the nature of the obstacle is which stands in the way?

I am informed by the Estates Commissioners that there are only four outstanding cases of evicted tenants in connection with this estate. The position of these men, whose former holdings are in the possession of other tenants, is engaging the attention of the Commissioners and every effort is being made to arrive at a satisfactory arrangement in their cases.

National University of Ireland (Appointment of Chancellor)

I wish to ask the hon. and learned Member if he will state who has been appointed as chancellor of the undenominational University at Dublin founded by the Act of last Session?

His Grace the Most Reverend Dr. Walsh, D.D., was unanimously elected Chancellor of the National University of Ireland by the Senate of the University.

May I ask if the Government consider that appointment affects the undenominational character of the University?

Alleged Boycotting (Kenvarra)

asked the hon. and learned Gentleman if he was aware that proceedings were taken during the present month by the Government against James Hogan, J.P., and several others for boycotting at Kenvarra; that the justices refused the application by a majority, the resident magistrate dissenting; that the Crown solicitor and the county inspector advised further proceedings against the accused; and that the Attorney-General refused to send up a bill against them to the grand jury; will he say why this course was adopted in precisely similar circumstances in the Riverstown case and departed from here; and what is the reason for the discrimination?

I am informed by the Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary that no such case occurred at all as that stated by the hon. and learned Member, nor is there anyone of the name of James Hogan living in the district referred to. There is no foundation for the other matters suggested in the hon, and learned Member's question.

As this is a question which affects my Constituency, may I ask whether the allegations contained in the question against Mr. Hogan of boycotting are not entirely devoid of any foundation?

On a point of order, may I ask if an hon. Member of this House is entitled to use his position within the House for the purpose of disseminating matter of a scandalous character with re- spect to the Constituency of any hon. Member of this House, when such matter is entirely devoid of foundation?

Certainly not; and I hope the hon. Member will not consider that this question comes within the category he has mentioned. This is a place where we seek to ascertain the truth.

Alleged Mutilation of Cattle (Roscommon and Clare)

I beg to ask the Solicitor-General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the statement that in the counties of Roscommon and Clare the cruel mutilation of cattle has lately been of constant occurrence; and whether this allegation is borne out by the police reports, or whether he has any official information showing that it has any foundation in fact?

My attention has been called to the statement mentioned. The Inspector-General of the Royal Irish Constabulary informs me that there are no grounds for the statement that such offences are of constant occurrence in the counties referred to. In the years 1906–7–8, there were in the county of Clare six, eight, and nine of these cases respectively, and in the county of Roscommon two, one, and three respectively.

In view of the fact that this statement has appeared in the editorial columns of "The Times" last Tuesday, I wish to know whether there is any method known to the law of preventing the publication of such slanders?

That is hardly a question which the hon. and learned Gentleman can answer. This House cannot be responsible for what appears in the newspapers.

Prosecution of Mr. Keane

asked the hon. and learned Gentleman if he accepts the refusal by three magistrates, members of the United Irish League, to bind Mr. Keane to be of good behaviour and keep the peace as conclusive vindication of the law on the part of the Government; whether his attention has been drawn to Mr. Keane's announcement of his intention to proceed with the intimidatory articles for which the Government proceeded against him; if he can now state whether an application will be made to the King's Bench Division against him, as in the case of the hon. Member for Longford; and, if not, on what grounds is discrimination made?

Royal Commission on Decentralisation in India

I desire to ask the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the attention of the Secretary of State has been drawn to paragraph 352 of the Report of the Royal Commission on Decentralisation in India, in which mention is made of a complaint by Sir John Hewitt, the Lieutenant-Governor of the United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, with reference to the encroachments of the Director of Criminal Intelligence upon his sphere of administration; will be state what are precisely the duties attached to the post in question; and whether, in view of the fact that the Commissioners comment upon the reception of similar complaints from other provinces as to what is regarded as the undesirable activity of this officer, it is proposed to afford him other facilities for justifying his existence?

The Secretary of State has seen the paragraph referred to. The duties of the Director of Criminal Intelligence include the collection of information regarding organised forms of crime, such as the operations of gangs of robbers working over large areas, and the like offences. With regard to the third question, the paragraph in the Report explains how the complaints referred to arose, and expresses the belief, in which the Secretary of State concurs, that the Director is "a distinctly valuable agency" in discharge of the functions of his office.

Controller of Military Supply Accounts (India)

asked whether a scheme, approved by the Government of India, for the creation in Calcutta of a large office establishment in connection with the" post of Controller of Military Supply Accounts, came into operation on 1st April, 1908; were some 200 men brought from various parts of India to take up positions in the office, and advertisements inserted in the press during the last days of March, 1908, calling for candidates for clerkships to appear and sit for examination; what amount of public money was spent upon this scheme; was the sanction of the Secretary of State previously obtained; and what is the present position in regard to the matter?

The Government of India are empowered to sanction an increase of minor clerical appointments within a certain limit of charge. If the hon. Member will furnish me with further information with regard to his case the Secretary of State will inquire.

Trinidad (Working Men's Association)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has yet received a communication from the Trinidad Working Men's Association in regard to the Sunday-closing Ordinance about to be adopted; and, if so, can he state what action the Government intend to take in regard to the matter?

No communication has yet been received.

Trinidad (Indentured Coolie Labour)

asked if the Secretary of State for the Colonies has received from the Trinidad Working Men's Association a memorandum on the question of the importation of indentured coolie labour into Trinidad, and in which they point out that wages on the cocoa estates are now 35 cents per day as against 60 cents 20 years ago, such reduction being due to the continued introduction of such labour; that the indentured labourers' wages are more like 3s. per week instead of the 5s. 2½d. promised as a minimum; that 46 per cent, of the committals to prison are for breaches of the Immigration Ordinance; that a radical change for the worse has taken place in the condition of the laburers, such being due to the continued importation of indentured labour; and, if so, whether the Government are prepared to abolish the export tax on produce of £13 per head, and place the whole of such cost on the planters requiring such labour, especially in view of the fact that to raise any part of the cost of introducing indentured labour by means of an export tax on produce is to compel all engaged in the industry to pay for indentured labour?

Yes, Sir; the Secretary of State has received the memorandum of the Trinidad Working Men's Association; but he is advised that the statements contained in it are not in all respects correct. The best information goes to show that 60 cents a day has never been paid on any cocoa estate except occasionally to a highly skilled pruner as an exceptional case. The statement which suggests that 5s. 2½d. a week is promised as a minimum to indentured labourers has already been corrected in the reply which was given to my hon. Friend on 18th February, 1908. It is the case that a large percentage of the committals to prison of recent years have been for breaches of the Immigration Ordinance, but the suggestion that the condition of the labourers is deteriorating in consequence is emphatically denied by the Colonial Government. His Majesty's Government are, accordingly, not prepared to take the steps indicated by the question—at any rate, without much fuller inquiry into the circumstances of Trinidad, and the labour supply of Trinidad. As my hon. Friend is aware, an inquiry has just been opened into the subject of coolie labour by a strong Committee, and, no doubt, important evidence from Trinidad will be tendered in due course.

asked if the Legislative Council of Trinidad has been asked by the Secretary of State to express an opinion as to whether there was an adequate supply of labour in the Colony without recourse to indentured labour from India; whether there existed any general feeling in favour of throwing the whole charge for the introduction of coolie immigrants upon the planters; if so, what was the nature of the reply to the same; and can he state the nature of the business of each of the unofficial members comprising the Legislative Council?

The Legislative Council of Trinidad was requested to discuss the whole question of the increase in the number of immigrants for the coming season proposed by the Colonial Government, and of the supply of labour in the Colony, with special reference to a despatch in which the Secretary of State had required a report on the subjects indicated by my hon. Friend. The debates in the Legislative Council showed that the opinion of the Council was decidedly in favour of a negative reply to the two questions raised by my hon. Friend. I am unable to state the nature of the occupation of each of the unofficial members of Council.

Delagoa Bay Railway

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is able to make any statement with reference to the future control and working of the Lourenco Marques railway and port?

asked if the Transvaal Government have obtained a lease of the Delagoa Bay Railway from Portugal; and, if so, on what conditions?

In answer to these questions, I have to state that I have no information on this matter.

Transvaal (British Indian Residents)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the British-Indian residents of Boksburg, Transvaal, have been served with notices of removal from the town into locations specially set apart for Asiatics outside, and contiguous to the Kaffir location; whether he is aware that a similar requirement from British-Indians by the Government of the late Transvaal Republic was opposed by His. Majesty's Government then in power; and if the Government will make friendly representations to the Government of the-Colony in the matter?

My attention has not been drawn to the notices referred to, but if the hon. Gentleman will furnish me with-a statement inquiry shall be made of the Governor. Representations were made to-the Government of the South African Republic in 1899 on the ground of the un-suitability of a site proposed for an Indian-location near Johannesburg.

Can the hon. Gentleman hold out any hope that we are-approaching a settlement of this very critical and dangerous matter?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his. attention has been drawn to the re-imprisonment last week of 130 British-Indians in the Transvaal for non-production of registration certificates under the-registration law; and whether His-Majesty's Government are taking, or intend to take, any steps to protect this unrepresented class of His Majesty's loyal subjects from further suffering and loss?

According to information received from the Governor the total' number of Asiatics in prison on 4th March for contravention of the Immigration Act and the Asiatics Registration Amendment Act, was 111. At the end of February three were also in prison for contravention of the law on revenue licences. His Majesty's-Government have been in communication with the Transvaal Government regarding the Indian question, and further correspondence on the subject will shortly be laid before Parliament.

Is there any hope that this matter will be reviewed by the Union Government?

I think it would be unwise to anticipate the future. It might perhaps be better to wait until the Papers are laid on the Table, which I think will be shortly.

asked whether Mr. Gandhi is for the third time now undergoing a sentence of imprisonment with hard labour for non-production of a certificate under the Transvaal Registration Law; whether the ostensible object of such registration was identification of domiciled Indians of that Colony; and, if so, whether it is contended that there is any risk of Mr. Gandhi's identity being mistaken should he not carry on his person such a certificate containing a description of his personal peculiarities and his pedigree; and does His Majesty's Government propose to take any action?

Mr. Gandhi is now in prison for a third time because he will not comply with legislation against which he is determined to protest, and His Majesty's Government have no power to prevent the lawfully constituted authorities of the Transvaal from enforcing the requirements of the law with regard to production of certificates and other matters. They have been in communication with the Transvaal Government on the whole question of the position of the Indians, and correspondence will shortly be laid before Parliament.

May I ask whether the Colonial Government or the India Office have taken into consideration the effects of this kind of treatment upon the Indians themselves?

Certainly, Sir. It has been under our consideration, and also under the consideration of the India Office. But if this gentleman breaks the law, of course the consequences must be what they are.

Will the Government give these men the same moral support that they gave the passive resisters in this country?

Jamaica (Re-Erection of Government Buildings)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the delay of over two years since the earthquake in re-erecting the Government buildings in Kingston, Jamaica, has been caused by some valid reason; and, if so, what reason; whether something can be done to expedite this work; and whether his Department have been or are endeavouring to help forward the work by assistance, either in advice or financially?

A contract for the reconstruction of the Government buildings at Kingston has been executed, under which King's House is to be completed by 4th April, 1910, and the Post Office and Treasury by 31st May, 1910. The Secretary of State has no reason to think that there has been any avoidable delay in carrying through this matter, having regard to the precautions necessary to provide buildings capable of withstanding earthquake shocks in the event of their recurrence. The Governor of the Colony paid a special visit to England last year in connection with the matter, and his efforts have received full support from the Colonal Office.

Crown Colony Contracts (Fair Wages Clause)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a fair wages clause is inserted in Crown Colony contracts placed in this country; and, if not, whether he will make representations to the agents of the various Crown Colonies and other dependencies with a view to the insertion of such a clause?

It has not been the practice to insert a fair wages clause in contracts made by the Crown Agents for the Colonies on behalf of the Government of a Crown Colony or Protectorate; but the matter has already received consideration, and the Secretary of State has decided that the Crown Colonies must, as regards the contracts to which my hon. Friend refers, conform to the practice of the United Kingdom in this matter.

That is another matter which I think had better be the I subject of another question.

Liberia (Internal Disturbances)

asked whether a British gunboat and a company of soldiers from Sierra Leone had been sent to Liberia; and, if so, for what purpose?

Some soldiers in the Liberian service, whose pay was in arrears, having threatened to mutiny and burn Monrovia, the capital, His Majesty's Consul-General telegraphed for protection for British lives, which were said to be in danger. The telegram was received on 4th February last, and orders were at once cabled to His Majesty's ship "Mutine" at Ascension to proceed to Monrovia. The "Mutine" arrived there on 10th February and found a situation of great unrest, but by 24th February the commander reported that the crisis was over, and that he had gone to Sierra Leone. No troops were sent from Sierra Leone.

Can you say whether any of this unrest is due to encroachments by the neighbouring Powers?

No, Sir. Encroachments from outside have nothing to do with it. I believe it is due to internal disturbances.

Dublin Parks (Labourers and Gardeners)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if any provision has been made for granting the market rate of wages to labourers and gardeners employed in the Dublin parks and gardens by the Board of Works; and can he say from what source the information was received to guide the Board of Works in recommending the present rate of 16s weekly for a city of Dublin workman?

The provision for the wages of labourers and gardeners m the Phoenix Park and St. Stephen's Green has been made upon the basis of the market rates for such wages modified so as to allow for the value of the special privileges enjoyed by workmen in the employ of the State. The information was collected from nursery gardeners and private employers in the immediate neighbourhood of Dublin.

Might I ask what is the rate of wages paid to ordinary labourers in London, and whether the hon. Gentleman will pay the Dublin men at the same rate?

Is 16s. per week a fair wage for these men in a city like-Dublin, where house rent is so high?

From what source did the Board of Works get this information that 16s. is a fair rate of wages for these men?

The information was-collected from employers of labour in and about Dublin, and by private inquiries.

Would not that rate of wages apply to the county and not the city of Dublin?

Order. The hon. Member should give himself the trouble to put-some of his questions down.

Ministers' Housing Allowances

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if a housing allowance, where paid to officials, is made without regard to the fact that the Minister already resides near his office; and if any undertaking is required that the money so paid shall be spent on house accommodation?

The accidental circumstance that a Minister or official happens to reside near his office would not, I think, as a rule, constitute a reason for depriving him of part of the recognised emoluments of his post. The answer to-the second question is in the negative.

Kilkenny City Bridge (Local Loan)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he could explain the cause of the delay in issuing the loan applied for conjointly by the Corporation of Kilkenny and the County Council of Kilkenny for the reconstruction of St. John's Bridge in Kilkenny city and sanctioned many months ago by the Treasury; and will he see that the money is paid over at once so that the erection of the bridge may be proceeded with?

I am informed by the Board of Public Works that the case, which is the first of its kind, presented numerous legal difficulties, which have now, I understand, been disposed of; but the question of the period of the loan has not yet been settled, and is not without difficulty. As soon as it has been settled, Treasury sanction for the loan will be sought.

Dublin Royal Botanic Gardens (Assistant Curator)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if an appointment has been made to the post of Assistant Curator of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Glasnevin, Dublin; if so, who is the gentleman appointed; whether he is a stranger to the city of Dublin; whether there were not any qualified men in the service with as great experience of all classes of plants who might have been appointed.; and whether he will say what were the qualifications of the lady who has been appointed as clerical assistant; and the salary to be paid to each of the newly-appointed persons?

The appointment to the post of assistant keeper of the Royal Botanic Gardens was made on 21st June, 1907, when the present holder, Mr. C. F. Ball, was appointed thereto from the post of out-door foreman in the gardens, to which he was appointed on 13th December, 1906. Mr. Ball was trained at Kew. "There were no men in the Department's service with the special qualifications and experience required for this post. Mr. Ball's salary for the present year is £110. The holder of the post of technical assistant to the keeper is Miss R. Pollock, who also acts as shorthand writer and typist. Hiss Pollock was appointed in November, 1904. Her salary for the present year is £110. Miss Pollock is a trained lady gardener and botanist, part of her training having been received in the Royal Botanic Gardens, and she is also proficient in shorthand and typewriting, and deals with foreign correspondence.

Woman's Freedom League (Arrests.)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a lady, being a delegate of a branch of the Women's Freedom League, and bearing a copy of their petition to the Prime Minister, was admitted to St. Stephen's Hall on the 18th ultimo between 5.0 and 5.30 p.m.; whether he is aware that she sent in her card in the usual way to the Prime Minister and other Members, and subsequently left quietly on the cards being returned; if he will explain why a similar course was not taken in the case of Mrs. Despard, Miss FitzHerbert, and other ladies, who on the same afternoon presented themselves on a similar errand a few minuts later; and why, instead of being admitted in the ordinary way, these ladies were forcibly repelled by the police and subsequently arrested?

The police have no knowledge of a lady as delegate of A branch of the Women's Freedom League being admitted to St. Stephen's Hall on 18th February, between 5.0 and 5.30 p.m., but she would have been admitted if she had come in the ordinary way, asking to see a Member. Mrs. Despard, Miss FitzHerbert, and the other ladies had that day been informed that the Prime Minister would not see them. They caused the collection of a crowd, declined to move away when asked to do so, as the approaches to the House had become obstructed, tried to force their way in, and were arrested.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has read the evidence given in the case of these ladies who were tried, and whether he read the evidence of one witness, a lady, who stated that she arrived, carrying a resolution from her branch, being one of the delegates, a good deal earlier than the others, and that she was admitted without question, and whether the only obstruction that was caused arose from the fact that a few minutes later a cordon of police was drawn up—in other words, whether the police were the only obstruction?

I have read the evidence, and I have consulted the learned magistrate. I am afraid I have nothing to add.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the fact of the methods adopted by the police having hitherto entirely failed to check the recurrence of these disorders, and that it is so repellent to the general sense of justice and fairplay that these women should be imprisoned as second-class misdemeanants, he will consider the advisability of considering other methods in future of dealing with these disorders?

Arrest of Mrs. Duval

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the statement, offered on oath, by Mrs. H. W. Nevinson relating to the arrest on the 18th ultimo of Mrs. Duval, now a prisoner in Holloway; and whether he will now, on a review of the evidence, direct the release of Mrs. Duval?

A copy of the statement referred to was submitted to me before I answered the question of the hon. Member for Sunderland on the 4th instant with regard to the case of Mrs. Duval. I have nothing to add to that answer.

Rosyth (Granite Supply)

asked the Prime Minister if he will appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the question of granite supply for Rosyth and other Government works?

No, Sir, I think not. I see no grounds for the appointment of such a Committee.

Is it not the fact that 50 per cent, of the granite dressed in Aberdeen and Peterhead is imported from abroad—

Board of Education and Borough Councils

asked the Prime Minister whether any of the English Departments, other than the Board of Education, have a regulation forbidding representation to its staff on borough councils?

I am not aware that any Government Department, except the Board of Education, enforces regulations of the kind described by my hon Friend.

Will the Prime Minister withdraw the embargo on the Education Department?

I am not the person responsible. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put his question to the President of the Board of Education.

Water Supply (Royal Commission)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the desirability of appointing a Royal Commission to inquire into the whole question of water supply and the conservation and use thereof?

The hon. Member is no doubt aware of the recommendations made by the Royal Commission on Sewage Disposal in their third Report with regard to the waste of water and its abstraction from one district for distribution in another. These recommendations have received the consideration of the President of the Local Government Board in connection with the Bill relating to Rivers Pollution and Water Supplies which he hopes to introduce this Session. In these circumstances, the appointment of a further Commission as suggested seems to be inexpedient.

Miss Maud FitzHerbert

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that Miss Maud FitzHerbert, now a prisoner in Holloway, declared during examination in Court that she was desirous of entering the precincts of the House in order to see the hon. Member for West Donegal; and under what regulation or instructions the police refused to allow her to communicate with the hon. Member?

The following extracts from the notes of Miss FitzHerbert's evidence appear to answer the hon. Member's question: "I had not made up my mind, but I should have asked for one Member. I generally victimise my cousin, Mr. Hugh Law. I should have seen him that evening. I have seen him before.… I had not made up my mind which Member to ask for."

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether it is not the fact that the police gave Miss FitzHerbert no time at all to make up her mind to ask for anybody, and can he state the number of minutes which elapsed between the time she arrived and the time of her arrest?

I suppose if she came with a distinct object she would have already made up her mind whom she wanted to see.

Does it not happen sometimes that when a person comes here she does not always know who is in the House, and she may have to ask to see more than one Member?

That may be so; I do not know. For instance, she might have asked to see my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Donegal.

Are all these prisoners being subjected to the same treatment during their sojourn in prison, or are exceptions being made, some being allowed privileges which are being denied to others?

Will the right hon. Gentleman afford me the same protection against my creditors as he affords me against my relatives?

When the hon. and learned Member needs that protection, if he will come and inform me of the precise circumstances, I will give him a reply.

Has not Lady Constance Lytton had privileges which have been denied to others?

Foreign Mail-bag Canvas

asked the Secretary for the Home Department how many yards of 52-inch mail-bag canvas is represented in the sum of £5,314 15s. 5d. spent on brown canvas as detailed in Command Paper 10; and where has the foreign-made mail-bag canvas been manufactured?

116,400 yards of 52-inch brown canvas manufactured in France is represented in the sum of £5,314 15s. 5d.

Instructions to Immigration Officers

asked the Secretary for the Home Department with regard to his instruction to immigration officers that in all cases in which immigrants coming from the parts of Europe which are at present in a disturbed condition allege that they are flying from political or religious persecution, the benefit of the doubt, where any doubt exists, as to the truth of the allegation, will be allowed, and leave to land will be given; whether he will say what parts of Europe immigration officers, by instruction or otherwise, at present regard as disturbed; upon what information they act in this matter if they are not instructed by him; whether any parts of Europe have been scheduled as disturbed, and, if so, what is the date of the schedule; and upon what disturbances the discrimination of certain parts of Europe as disturbed is now based so as to bring them within the scope of the instruction of the 9th March, 1906, already quoted?

The answers to the four parts of this question are: 1. None, so far as the Home Office knows. 2. They act on common sense and common knowledge. 3. None. 4. None, so far as the Home Office knows.

False Names of Prisoners

asked the Secretary for the Home Department whether he is. aware that a prisoner charged with theft was brought up at the Westminster police court on the 29th December last and was charged in a false name; that the stipendiary magistrate subsequently admitted that he knew the name to be false and that he was aware of the prisoner's correct name; that the prisoner's recognisances were made out in the name which the magistrate has admitted he knew to-be false; and, if so, whether he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to prevent the correct names of prisoners being suppressed?

I have made inquiry, and find that the name under which the prisoner in question was charged and dealt with is the only name known to the magistrate. It is not the case that he stated that he knew the name to be false, and, in fact, at the present time he does not know whether the name is false or not, or, if it is false, what the defendant's real name was. He knew no more of her than of the hundreds of other defendants charged before him, and there is not the slightest ground for suggesting that he, in any way, countenanced the suppression of the name. The insinuations against the magistrate which have appeared in the Press are absolutely baseless, and ought, never to have been made.

India House, Highgate (Sedition in India)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the nature of the propaganda which is being carried on from India House, Highgate; whether he is aware that seditious pamphlets or articles are written there and sent to India and circulated amongst the natives; what are the reports on which the police have felt it necessary to shadow Indian students who use or frequent India House; and what other steps, if any, are being taken to prevent England being used as a centre for the encouragement of sedition in India?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It is obviously undesirable to make public the steps that the police may think necessary to take in this matter, and I would strongly deprecate questions being addressed to me for such a purpose.

Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908

asked the Secretary for the Home Department if he can state if any Orders in Council have been made under the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908; and, if so, when they will be laid before this House?

Notice was published in the "London Gazette" of 16th February last that after the expiration of 40 days from that date it was proposed to submit to His Majesty in Council the draft of an Order in Council making regulations under Section 2 (3) of the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908. When His Majesty makes the Order it will be laid before Parliament in accordance with Section 2 (5) of; the Act.

French Tariff and Steel

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any suggestion has reached him, either from the French Government or been proposed by the French Tariff Commission, to substitute methods of hardening as a line of discrimination in the classification of steel, in lieu of the former proposal of differences in chemical analysis; and whether he will take no steps to agree to either suggestion without first ascertaining the views of the Sheffield Chamber of Commerce?

No suggestion of the nature alluded to by the hon. Member has hitherto come under my notice. I need hardly say that I should at all times welcome any expression of views from representative bodies such as the Sheffield Chamber of Commerce, with regard to any proposals for alteration of classification which they consider will effect their trade interests.

May I ask whether he has made any representations with regard to the effect which the proposed tariff if carried out would have on imports of steel from Sheffield?

I have collected a great deal of information from British representative bodies on this subject, but, as I said the other day in the House, I do not think it would be to the public advantage to make any statement on the other aspect of the question to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

Importation of Hats (Sweden)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to a rise in the duties on imported felt hats into Sweden, which rise in duties is detrimental to British trade; and whether he has made or will make any representations to Sweden on the subject?

I have no information as to any recent increase in the duty levied in Sweden on imported felt hats, and I am inclined to think that the hon. Member is misinformed as to the suggested rise.

Manchester Chamber of Commerce (French Duties)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received an intimation from the Manchester Chamber of Commerce that they cannot but regard the proposed increase in the French duties on British manufactures as gravely prejudicial to the commercial interests of this country; and whether, in the representations he makes to France, he will especially consider the proposed increase in tariffs, in some cases amounting almost to prohibition, upon elastic goods, boots and shoes, cotton, and woollen textiles?

I have received from the Manchester Chamber of Commerce a copy of a resolution in the terms quoted by the hon. Member. I am not at present prepared to make any statement in reply to the second part of the question, beyond saying that full consideration is being given to the representations which I have received respecting the proposed increases of duty on various articles.

Has he received the resolution of the Manchester Chamber of Com merce passed by them by a large majority objecting most strongly to any Protectionist proposals?

I have not received the resolution, but I am very glad to know that such a resolution has been passed.

Underground Railway (Accommodation for Passengers)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if the attention of his Department has been drawn to the fact that in the third-class carriages on the Underground Railway, in addition to seating accommodation for 48 passengers, about 70 hanging straps have been provided for those unable to secure seats; whether such encouragement and aid to systematic overcrowding has received the sanction of the Board of Trade; and, if not, whether representations will be made to the company upon the subject, with a view to the provision of more seating accommodation for third-class passengers?

I am aware that the accommodation provided in the third-class carriages of the trains of the Metropolitan District Railway Company is approximately as stated. Arrangements in regard to this matter on the line referred to do not require the sanction of the Board of Trade. I have, however, called the attention of the company to the hon. Member's question.

French Tariff on Sea Trout

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that it is proposed by the new French tariff to treble the existing tariff on sea trout exported from Great Britain and Ireland to France; and, in view of the loss this will inflict on net fishings in the United Kingdom, he will take such steps as are possible to prevent this increase in duty?

I think that the Noble Lord is misinformed. I understand that the rate of duty at present levied on trout imported from the United Kingdom into France is 10 francs per 100 kilogrammes, and that the Customs Commission of the French Chamber of Deputies have proposed to increase this rate to 15 francs. I believe a larger increase has been proposed on the rate leviable on trout under the "General Tariff," but as we enjoy the minimum tariff this increase, if enacted, would not affect the United Kingdom.

Arising out of that, is the French Government given to understand we may possibly do something to penalise them?

Diseased Foreign Sheep Livers

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a report made by the medical officer of the Port of London to the Common Council of the City of London, in which that officer stated that he had found nearly 600 diseased sheep livers in a cargo recently landed from the United States; whether he is aware that the boxes containing these livers have an official label representing that they had been inspected and passed by the United States. authorities before exportation; and what action he proposes to take in order to safeguard the consumers of this country j from the dangers to public health revealed by these circumstances?

I have seen the report, and am aware of the statements contained in it to the effect given in the question. This particular case is receiving my attention, but I may state that the action reported by the Medical Officer of Health was taken under the Public Health (Foreign Meat) Regulations, which I issued last year for the purpose of preventing danger to the public health from the importation of diseased meat, and which I have every reason to believe will be found effective for the. purpose.

Erith Urban Council (Dismissal of Clerk)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the action of the Erith Urban Council in dismissing their clerk, after 17 years' service, on the sole ground that he is not a qualified solicitor; and whether he intends to propose any legislation to extend the powers of his Department in order to place clerks of urban councils in the same position as similar officials of boards of guardians and other local authorities?

My attention has been called to this matter. Under the Public Health Act the clerk to an urban district council is removable by the council at their pleasure, and I am afraid I could not promise to propose legislation with a view to-an alteration of the law in this respect.

Unemployment in Somerset

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that, in spite of a great deal of distress through unemployment in Somerset, the county council has not set up a distress committee; whether he will make representations to the county council with a view to the creation of a distress committee; or whether his Board will exercise its powers under Sub-section (2) of Clause 2 of The Unemployed Workmen Act, 1905, by setting up a distress committee.

The Somerset County Council constituted a Special Committee under Sub-section (3) of Section 2 of the Act for the purposes referred to in that sub-section. They would not be empowered to appoint a distress committee, though under Sub-section (2) of the section they might apply to the Local Government Board to establish in the county a central body and distress committees with similar constitutions to those of the central body and distress committees in London. I have not received any such application. I was informed by the county council in January last that there did not appear to be much want of employment in Somerset, and I am not aware of any sufficient reason for adopting the course suggested in the question.

Frozen Carcases (Imported)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that many frozen carcases are imported without the lymphatic glands; and whether, in view of the probability that the lymphatic glands are removed to conceal the fact that the animal has suffered from glandular tuberculosis, he will prohibit the importation of all carcases which do not contain the lymphatic glands intact and in a healthy condition?

I understand that practically it is only in the case of pigs that the entire carcase is imported as frozen meat. The Public Health (Foreign Meat) Regulations deal with cases where the carcase of a pig is imported without the head in its natural state of attachment and is without the lymphatic glands about the throat and any other part of the carcase in their natural position. In any such case the Medical Officer of Health and the sanitary authority are required to take such action as will secure that the meat will either be exported or destroyed. The powers conferred by the Regulations are, so far as I am aware, duly exercised, and they appear to be sufficient to meet the object which the hon. Member has in view.

Where it is not destroyed we compel the people to re-export it. As a rule, it is destroyed.

Importation of Offal

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the Report of Dr. Herbert Williams, Medical Officer of Health for the Port of London, on the importation of frozen offal, and to the assertion that much diseased meat is imported in this way under the official seal of the United States Government; and whether, in the interests of the public health, he will prohibit the importation of offal in future?

As I have stated in answer to a previous question, my attention has been called to this Report. The offal referred to in that Report bore an official label indicating that the boxes containing it had been inspected and passed in the United States. The matter is receiving my attention; but I may point out that any label attesting official inspection abroad does not exempt meat of the kind referred to from inspection in this country, and that, under the Regulations, if it is found to be diseased it must be either exported or destroyed.

In view of the scientific statement that many cases of cancer have arisen in this country owing to this diseased liver, will he prohibit such liver in future?

I do not think there is any justification for the statement with regard to cancer. The Public Health Regulations of Food, which the House passed a year ago, gives us sufficient power to deal with any unsound meat attempted to be brought into this country, as we have discovered in this particular case.

London Relief Works

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received a petition, signed by men engaged on relief works in London, asking for work to be continued; if so, what action he intends taking in reply; and whether the closing of the registers on 6th March is an indication that the relief works will be closed during or at the end of March?

I have received the petition referred to. I am in communication with the Central (Unemployed) Body for London on the subject to which it relates, but I may state that the closing of the registers on 6th March is not intended to indicate that the works will all be closed by the end of the month.

Charity Commissioners and Poor's Furze

asked the hon. Member for the Barnstaple Division, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether he is aware that in the parish of Eastbury, in South Berks, there are 10 acres of land known as the Poor's Furze, which was duly awarded in 1776 to the lord and lady of the manor for the time being of Eastbury as a fuel allotment in trust for ever for the poor inhabitants of the parish, and that the present lord of the manor is in the habit of letting the sporting rights over the Poor's Furze to a tenant who is not an object of the trust, without allocating any share of the rents and profit to the poor inhabitants; whether the Charity Commissioners will take steps to ascertain the amount of the rents and profits which have accrued to the lord of the manor; whether his action is in accordance with the terms of the trust; and what are the rights of the parishioners?

The facts appear to be as stated in the first part of the question. The Commissioners are taking steps to ascertain the amount of the rents and profits, if any, which have accrued to the lord of the Manor, whose action does not appear to be in accordance with the terms of the trust. The Award of 1776 provided for regulations for the user of the allotment. No such regulations seem to have been made, and until that has been done the rights of the parishioners cannot be clearly defined.

Is it a fact that the Charity Commissioners sent down an Assistant Commissioner to inquire into this, and that he reported—

Retaliation

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the statement made by the Prime Minister that retaliation was a boomerang inflicting far more and far severer wounds upon ourselves than upon our industrial rivals, he still contemplates in his negotiations with the French Government the possibility of retaliation as recently adumbrated by himself?

I have not seen the speech of the Prime Minister to which the hon. Gentleman refers, and I do not think I could usefully add anything at the present time to what I have said in regard to British trade relations with foreign countries.

Does he still adhere or desire to repeat his statement that a system of retaliation is impossible except on the basis of—

Is he aware that the hon. Member for North-West Manchester stated recently of him that he seemed likely to return to the Tory party on the question of retaliation?

I am aware that a great many stupid things are frequently said in the country.

Small Holdings (Kent)

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he could state the number of applicants for small holdings in Kent, the number of applications approved, and the acreage applied for, the amount of land already allocated the number of schemes under consideration and the acreage involved in them, and the localities in which land had been allotted or would be soon allotted?

Seven hundred and thirty-two applications for 9,738 acres have been received, 488 of which have been approved. Sixty-five applications have since been withdrawn, and 71 are still under consideration. Nine hundred and fifty acres have been allocated, either directly or indirectly, by the Council, and five schemes, embracing 285 acres, are under consideration. Land has been allotted to the parishes of Bredhurst, Capel, Hawkhurst, Bilsington, Marden, Shorne, Sandwich, Tenterden, Woodnes-borough, Nettlestead, Northbourne, Appledore, East Mailing, and Snargate, and negotiations for the acquisition of further land in five other parishes is proceeding.

Can the hon. Baronet tell the House how many of the applicants approved of have actually had land allotted to them and the extent of that land?

Death from Glanders

asked whether the attention of the Board of Agriculture had been called to the inquest at the Lambeth coroner's court concerning the death of Charles Edward Davis from glanders; and what action had been taken in the matter by the local authority?

The Board are aware of the unfortunate circumstances to which the hon. Member refers. The attention of the London County Council was directed to the case, and the horses in the stables where the man was employed were at once inspected. Glanders was found to exist, and the necessary steps are being taken to deal with the outbreak.

What steps have been taken to trace the horses alleged to have been removed by night from these stables, and to prevent the infection of other stables?

The county council have taken the matter up with great energy, and we are satisfied that they are taking every necessary precaution.

Swansea Church Schools

asked what was the expenditure devolving upon the managers of the Swansea Church schools in consequence of the requirements of the Swansea local education authority as to the provision of buildings and the Board of Education as to playground space?

I have no definite information, but in a letter to the Board in January, 1908, the managers estimated the cost at £11,600.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be surprised to hear that we received—

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he proposed to act upon the Report of the Commissioner sent by the Board of Education to inquire into the action of the Swansea local education authority towards the Swansea Church schools?

If the hon. Member will refer to the Paper which has recently been issued he will find that action was taken by the Board upon the Report on 17th December, 1908.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the action taken is diametrically opposed to the Report of the Commissioner?

asked the President if the Board of Education whether he would call upon the Swansea local education authority to pay all the teachers employed within its area upon the same scale of fees, instead of differentiating between the teachers of council schools and those of Church schools, to the detriment of the latter?

The local authority has, under Section 7 of the Education Act, 1902, the control of all expenditure required for the purpose of maintaining and keeping efficient the public elementary schools within its area. The Board of Education have no power to intervene unless it can be shown that the local authority has failed in its duty to maintain and keep efficient a public elementary school.

Is it not a fact that the local education authority has failed to do its duty?

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he proposed to bring pressure upon the Swansea local education authority to force it to administer the Education Act, 1902; and, if so, what action he proposed to take?

If I am satisfied that the local education authority for Swansea fail to comply with the requirements of the law I shall have recourse to such remedies as the law provides.

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the Board had called upon the managers of the Swansea Church Schools to provide playground space at the rate of 20 square feet per child; and whether he proposed to call upon the Swansea local education authority to increase the playground accommodation in connection with their adjacent council schools, where the provision was only at the rate of 8, 12, and 17 square feet respectively?

The Church school, to which the hon. Member is presumably referring, was being practically rebuilt. I do not know which are the council schools he is referring to; but if and when the necessity of rebuilding them arises the question of requiring an increase in the playground accommodation will, of course, be considered.

The Board of Education having decided that 20 square feet per child should be provided, does the right hon. Gentleman propose to see that that amount of space is also provided in the council schools in the same town?

If cases arise, of course the Board of Education will take whatever action may be proper in the matter.

If the hon. Member had listened to an answer given a few minutes ago he would have heard that the Board of Education has not intervened at all.

Is it to be understood that whatever the education authority decide is absolutely right?

Business of the House

On Monday we propose to take first, the remainder of the Civil Service (Supplementary) Estimates (Class V., Vote 2, Colonial Services; Class II., Vote 11, Board of Agriculture). After that we hope to get the second reading of the Secretary of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries Bill and the Houses of Parliament Bill. They are both uncontroversial measures, and I hope the second readings may be obtained before eleven o'clock. On Tuesday, we propose to move Mr. Speaker out of the chair on Navy Estimates; the debate on that Motion will be continued and concluded on Wednesday. On Thursday Navy Estimates, Votes A and 1 and noneffective Votes will be taken; and the debate will be continued and concluded on Monday, the 22nd inst. We propose to suspend the eleven o'clock Rule on Monday next as a precaution for the purpose of securing the remainder of the Supplementary Estimates.

Deaths from Starvation (Return)

moved for a Return of the number of deaths in England and Wales in the year 1908, upon which a coroner's jury has returned a verdict of Death from Starvation or Death accelerated by Privation; together with any observations furnished to the Local Government Board by boards of guardians with reference to cases included in the Return.

Motion agreed to.

Presentation of Bills

The following Bills were presented and read a first time:—

SIR GEORGE M'CRAE—Ecclesiastical Assessments (Scotland).—Bill to amend the Law regarding Ecclesiastical Assessments in Scotland. (To be read a second time, 15th March.)

SIR GEORGE M'CRAE—Open Spaces (Scotland).—Bill to facilitate the acquisition of Open Spaces by local authorities in Scotland. (To be read a second time, 15th March.)

Supply

CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE.

Second Allotted Day

[Mr. EMMOTT in the chair.]

(IN THE COMMITTEE.)

Civil Services and Revenue Departments' Estimates, 1909–10 (Vote on Account)

Motion made and Question proposed: "That a sum, not exceeding £26,232,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1910."

I wish to raise a point of order. This sum of £26,232,000 will be taken on one Vote. Class IV. is being taken out of its order, and a reduction is to be moved, the discussion upon which may occupy the whole of the time at our disposal. That being the case, I would ask if it could be laid down that this particular reduction should occupy only such portion of the time as is consonant with the fair discussion of other questions. The former practice was that on the Vote on account a general discussion was first of all allowed, and then specific Amendments on particular items were taken.

I think the hon. Member is hardly correct. The ordinary practice has been adopted this year which has been adopted now for a considerable time. The arrangement of the Votes is not in my hands. They can be handed in by the authorities in any order they like. They are handed in in this order to-day, and, of course, I am taking them in that order.

I hope the House appreciates that it limits the time available for the discussion of the Votes.

Oxford Street School, Swansea

I rise to move .a reduction of the Vote by £100 in respect of the salary of the President of the Board of Education in order to call attention to the case of Oxford-street School, Swansea. I would venture to submit the facts of the case not only from the legal point of view, but also from the point of view that there has been dereliction of duty on the part of the Board of Education, who upset the decision of their own commissioners. On the question of facts I will not detain the Committee longer than I can help. I know that it is somewhat inconvenient to debate the matter here after it has been so fully gone into in another place yesterday. At the same time, I cannot help feeling that the Government themselves would desire to give a fuller and more ample explanation of their conduct than was given by the Lord President of the Council in the other place—an explanation which I for one cannot consider in the least satisfactory. The school in Oxford-street, Swansea, has been in existence for a great many years, and it has been a very popular one. It educates about 1,000 children. Ever since the Act of 1902 came into force there have been troubles and difficulties between the local education authority, namely, the Town Council of Swansea, and the school managers. I do not propose to take up any question except that of the salaries of the teachers. The subject was debated in this House on an Amendment to the Address which at the beginning of last Session was moved by the Noble Lord the Member for Maryle-bone, whose absence from the debate this afternoon on account of illness I am sure we all regret. As soon as that Act came into force in 1904 it was the duty of the local education authority to pay the teachers' salaries, and it was the duty of the managers to maintain and keep efficient the school buildings.

I cannot do better on the question of facts than to mention some of the facts found by the Commissioners the President of the Board of Education sent down last year in order to hold an impartial inquiry. The facts which were found by the Com- missioners to be proved, I take it, will be matter of common ground between the right hon. Gentleman and myself. At this big and important school—a school as important as the council schools in the same area—the teaching staff was appointed before the Act of 1902 came into effect on the usual basis that there should be an annual increment of the salaries. It was a condition of their appointment that year by year, if their conduct was satisfactory, there should be increments of salary. When in 1904 the local education authority came to consider the question of salaries they came to the conclusion that the wages and salaries in the non-provided schools in their area should remain as they then were, and up to the present moment they have not rescinded that resolution, and they have never allowed the managers to increase the salaries, although they have passed resolutions giving increases of salaries to teachers who are giving the same kind of education in provided schools in their own jurisdiction. The teachers in Oxford-street school were shut out from all benefit in the way of increase of salary, and naturally they began to complain. So long ago as 1905 complaints were received from the teachers of the Church schools, and, nothing having been done, in 1906 not unnaturally they began to send in their resignations. They found it impossible to get the increases of salary to which they were entitled, and which they found their neighbours of no better standing were receiving from the same local authority. On 27th May, 1906, a large number of these teachers resigned in a body, and said that it would be impossible to go on. This was done very largely on the advice of the National Union of Teachers. I see the representative of the National Union of Teachers on the other side of the House, and I expect that we shall at least have the support of the hon. Member in asking for what is nothing more nor less than common fairness and justice to the teachers in this school. Notwithstanding that an application was again made to the local education authority, they again refused to raise the salaries in the Church schools, but in April, 1907, they adopted an increased rate of pay to the teachers in their own schools. That is the position now, and it has been the position since 1904—gradual increases of salary to the teachers in the provided schools and a cessation of increases to teachers in the non-provided schools.

If that is possible in Swansea it is possible in all the non-provided schools in the land. It applies to Church schools and Roman Catholic schools wherever there is a hostile local education authority. If Swansea is right, it will be perfectly legal for them to say: ''Under no circumstances will we increase the salaries in our non-provided schools," and apparently under no circumstances will the President of the Board of Education compel them to do it. If that is not so, I shall be delighted to hear under what circumstances he would think it right to compel the local education authority of Swansea to give increases of salary to the teachers in Oxford-street school. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman would say that he would interfere when the schools have completely broken down under this system almost of persecution by the local education authority.

When the teachers have left in a body, and when the scholars are unable to get any education at all, then possibly he might interfere. But I understood that the only possible interference would be to take over the school management. During part of this time when the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors were in the chair at the Board of Education, the first President of the Board under this Government was the right hon. Gentleman who is now Chief Secretary for Ireland. On 31st July, 1906, he wrote to the local education authority and called special attention to this matter, and I think if the same right hon. Gentleman had remained in charge of the Department we should have had justice before now. The right hon. Gentleman wrote in the following terms:— Member the Attorney-General, but I have equal respect for his predecessor, the late Sir John Walton, who, on 20th March, 1907, said that:

Is it said that no-guidance was ever given by the educational authority?

Yes. The educational authority did refuse to do otherwise. The managers applied to them time after time, and by the advice of the Board they signed the agreement, "inserting such salaries as may appear to-them to be reasonable in the absence of any guidance on the part of the local authority." The Prime Minister challenged us to say whether "there is a legal obligation to make salaries identical." No one has ever suggested that. We were not saying that all salaries should be identical, but that all salaries where the conditions were similar should be identical, and I expect the support in that contention from the trade unionists in this House.

Beyond the speech to which I have referred, the Attorney-General laid it down before the House of Lords in the West Riding case what was the duty of the Board and what was the intention of the-Act of 1902. He said on that occasion: They held a demonstration at Cardiff, with the right hon. Gentleman in the chair. They said no rate aid was to be given to voluntary schools in Wales. I am surprised that a gentleman holding a responsible position in the country should try to make impossible the work of an Act of Parliament. A resolution was moved condemning the Act of the Board of Education. It was put to the meeting by the then President of the Board of Trade, and passed unanimously, and I suppose it was presented by him to his colleagues in the Ministry at the next Cabinet meeting with his tongue in his cheek. What becomes of the doctrine of Cabinet Ministers' mutual responsibility when one Minister can condemn the act of his colleagues?

Thus no rate campaign went on. Mr. Hamilton was appointed as Commissioner. Everyone knows that he is a gentleman of the highest eminence in the law, and that he has since been made a judge. He was sent down to make a full and careful and impartial inquiry. He sat for two days. He heard evidence, and he found certain things as facts.

I want to call attention to these facts. He found that the school had not been kept efficient by the local education authority, and it was kept efficient so far as it was by the managers plus the contributions of the charitable public. The managers found that it was impossible to get teachers at lower salaries. The representatives of the National Union of Teachers black-listed this school. Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that we are to take black-legged teachers in Church schools?

In the report it is stated that while there were vacancies they were not filled. Applicants were invited "for other than provided schools." There was no response, and advertisements were actually refused by an influential newspaper.

I have not got the date; but the applications met with no response. That is what the report says, and I assume that the Commissioner would not have said that the advertisements met with no response unless advertisements had been inserted. I do not want to use any offensive language. But the Govern- ment evidently thought for some time that discretion was the better part of valour, and yesterday in the House of Lords they surrendered, and agreed to publish the evidence. Finally the Commissioner found that the local education authority had omitted to perform all their duties. The school could not be kept up unless the teachers were paid a higher salary. It was not practicable to keep the staff together or maintain a staff capable of keeping the school efficient unless higher salaries were paid than those paid by the local authority. It was found impossible to maintain and keep efficient the Oxford-street school. I submit we have a distinct question of fact reported by the Commissioner who heard the evidence, who heard everything that everybody had to say, and I hope there will be an appeal on the question of fact and not on a question of law. I should like to know what the question of law is—if it is a question of law. I see the Attorney-General in his place. Will he tell whether the law enables the President of the Board of Education to override the decision of his own Commissioner on a question of fact? I think it will be a long time before the President or the Attorney-General can find a point of law on this matter.

Does the hon. Member suggest that the Board of Education are bound by the decision? Is that his suggestion?

My suggestion is this: The Attorney-General knows perfectly well that Mr. Hamilton was there in the position of a juror ascertaining and finding upon facts. The right hon. Gentleman cannot find on the facts for he did not see the witnesses, and he could not tell the demeanour of the witnesses. The Attorney-General knows perfectly well that no Court of Appeal considers it is entitled to overrule a Court of first-instance upon a question of fact. If Courts of Appeal had to deal with questions of fact they would never be done. Mr. Hamilton found on a question of fact, and how can the President of the Board of Education find it reconcilable with his position and his quasi-judicial position to override the report of his own Commissioner on a question of fact.

It appears there is no question of law dealt with in this report. The right hon. Gentleman has taken three months, or nearly so, to consider it. I think it would have been fairer to the managers of the Church schools if the right hon. Gentleman had laid that report on the Table a fortnight or a month before Parliament rose in the autumn of last year in order that we might have had an opportunity of discussing it. But no, he kept it to try and make up his mind on a question of fact whether he was going to support Mr. Hamilton or to reject his report.

I was very glad indeed to hear the Noble Lord, the President of the Council, deny emphatically on behalf of the President of the Board of Education yesterday that very serious statement that appeared in the "South Wales Daily News" in regard to the right hon. Gentleman's action. The report of the " South Wales Daily News," which is the leading organ of the no-tent campaign amongst the Radical party in: South Wales, ventured to take the right hon. Gentleman's name in vain, and the reporter went on to say that he had seen the right hon. Gentleman, and that he had told him he was not satisfied with Mr. Hamilton's report and would not leave the Swansea people alone. The right hon. Gentleman denied that statement, but does it not throw a lurid light upon the way this campaign is conducted in South Wales, when the leading papers dares fabricate such a statement in regard to a responsible Minister of the Crown in order to keep up the courage of his friends in South Wales? The right hon. Gentleman himself was content to receive the popularity in South Wales of having made that statement and not to have contradicted it until the contradiction was forced from him in another place.

The hon. Gentleman is not satisfied, apparently, with the contradiction he heard in another place. Is he now making the suggestion that because three months intervened since the statement appeared in the Welsh newspapers without my contradicting it, that therefore the statement is true?

Then what does he mean? Does he or does he not believe that unless every Member in this House contradicts every reference appearing in the public Press about him, it is strictly accurate?

I am bound to say I have not made one suggestion that the right hon. Gentleman made that statement. I accept his contradiction absolutely. What I am complaining of is that the South Wales daily Press thought it necessary to circulate this monstrous statement with regard to a leading Member of His Majesty's Government, and that the right hon. Gentleman did not think it necessary to contradict it. It was not merely in the South Wales daily Press it was published; it was also published in a letter to "The Times" newspaper by the Bishop of St. David's.

Does the hon. Member suggest I read the letters of every bishop in Wales, and that, if I did read them, it is my business to contradict every silly little bit of tittle-tattle they contain?

The right hon. Gentleman is importing unnecessary heat into this matter. Does he say he has not read this letter? He won't answer.

I will answer the right hon. Gentleman, although I do not think I ought to be cross-examined. I have not read the letter of the Bishop of St. David's, and I had no idea that he wrote a letter in "The Times" on this subject until yesterday.

I quite accept the right hon. Gentleman's explanation. I will not pursue the matter further, as Le did not read the letter and did not see it. [MINISTERIAL cheers.] Hon. Members opposite may raise ironical cheers. I will say this, that the appearance of that statement in the papers caused very serious anxiety to managers of Church schools who look upon the right hon. Gentleman as the custodian and guardian of the rights of minorities. I think I was justified in calling attention to it, but on that point I entirely acquit the right hon. Gentleman of having made the statement, and as he had not seen it, of course he could not have possibly contradicted it. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he agrees with one or two of the statements quoted by Lord Cawdor in another place with regard to the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We want to know whether he means to advance the interest of the Church schools and the Roman Catholic schools; we want to know is the Act of 1902 to be fairly and justly and impartially administered, or whether the right hon. Gentleman agrees with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his effort to make the Act an entirely dead letter?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking at Cardiff in 1904, said:— of the Board of Education said: "The reason I ordered the inquiry was because I wanted an impartial inquiry."

He has got an impartial inquiry. He has got the facts, but he is not inclined to agree with them. Does the right hon. Gentleman always take the advice of his law advisers as to every decision on matters of fact. The right hon. Gentleman wanted to get out of this decision, and he tried to get the Attorney-General to find him some way out of it. The Attorney-General found the way, and now I am asking what is the legal point that has enabled him to override a decision which has been come to on a question of fact. On 19th December last year, in reply to a question of the Noble Lord the Member for Marylebone, the Secretary to the Board of Education said:— noon, and if he cannot we are justified in moving the reduction of this Vote and asking the House to drive him out of office as incompetent. I beg to move.

Question proposed: "That item, Class IV., Vote 1, be reduced by £100 in respect of the Salary of the President of the Board of Education."—[ Mr. Joynson-Hicks. ]

I raise no objection whatever to this subject having been ventilated on the earliest possible occasion by the hon. Gentleman and his friends, but I cannot congratulate him altogether on the way in which he has treated the subject, and some of the officials who have been necessarily drawn into this controversy. When he refers, for instance, to the Permanent Secretary of the Welsh Department as a Welsh revolter, I think he is using language towards a permanent official which is highly improper. So far as I know Mr. Alfred Davies, who is the Permanent Secretary of the Welsh Department, has been in no way connected with what has been known as the Welsh Revolt, and throughout the time he has been administering that Department under me, at all events, I have seen no sign of any collusion between him and those with whom he was associated before he entered the public service. Then the hon. Gentleman, evidently with the idea that we were poltroons in facing the music at this time, said that the evidence was wrung from us only yesterday. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware that I have never been asked for the evidence taken at this inquiry, either publicly or privately, until yesterday, and directly it was asked for I sent a note to the Noble Viscount, who represents me in another place, to say I should be delighted to have it printed and circulated. Then the hon. Gentleman revives a story with regard to a cutting from a newspaper and found it difficult to believe that I, seeing this statement, or not seeing it, was not guilty of having uttered what appeared to him to be some sort of indication of my partiality in this case. I am not going into that again, because I hope the interruptions of the last few minutes will have led the Committee to believe even if the hon. Member does not think so, that what I have stated on this subject is accurate.

I must beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. I absolutely accept his contradiction.

I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman say that, but then why did he go on finding fault with me for not having contradicted this statement until yesterday? I am very glad to think that that subject is at all events not likely to be raised again in this controversy. Then he goes on further to show how necessary he thinks it is in attacking an opponent to suggest that there are some mala fides, that, as a matter of fact, when I got Mr. Hamilton's report I wanted to get rid of it, and I did not like it, and I therefore used as a tool my hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General in order to get out of it. I do not think that is the way to approach a difficult question such as the Swansea case has been either inside this House or outside of it.

This is not a new case by any means. I do not know whether the Committee are aware that it was begun before right hon. Gentlemen opposite went out of office. It was started about 1904, and they had nearly two years in which to deal with it, and they dealt with it with no greater success than I have dealt with it up to the present. The whole thing arose because of the difficult relationship which under existing legislation very often arises between the local authorities and the managers of denominational schools. When the Act of 1902 came into operation there then was set in motion a state of opinion and a state of feeling which, however regrettable, was bound to arise, where you had the feelings of the local authorities-raised to fever point and the feelings of the managers equally raised to fever point. Both of the parties in this case—I say it quite frankly to those who control the local education authority in Swansea as I say it to the managers—both parties behaved in a high-handed manner, and even if they were actuated by the highest motives, as I presume they were, they were prepared to press their opinions to the point of active hostility the one against the other, and when the difficult relationship which must arise under the 1902 Act is further exacerbated in this way the situation becomes worse, and is almost impossible. As a consequence disputes arose between the authority and the managers as to the state of the buildings, as to the salaries to be paid to the teachers, and a large number of minor matters of administration. Many of these questions arose for the first time after the Act of 1902 had come into operation, but they ranged practically over the whole field of local administration, and I found at the Board of Education when I went there piles of correspondence and scores of letters drafted with the greatest skill. Many of the manœuvrings, and there were manœuvrings on both sides, were conducted by men who knew the strategy of public controversy perfectly well, and it was almost impossible for me to disentangle the clear thread of fact out of the whole mass of this material. I therefore adopted what I considered was the best course. I sent down to Swansea one of the ablest lawyers I could find. He had previously done us great service on the Merionethshire case, and perhaps hon. Members opposite will have forgotten that when he was sent down to Merionethshire the services he rendered to the Board enabled the Board actually to put the Default Act into operation against the county of Merioneth.

Mr. Hamilton, now Mr. Justice Hamilton, conducted that case with all the skill which he is well known to possess. He accumulated all the evidence beforehand, and obtained a great deal at the time, and out of this tangled business he gave us a more or less clear story of what had happened. This mass of correspondence and the contradictions were not on one point only. We have had an example this afternoon of one point of contradiction which arose between the managers and the local authorities—viz., on the point of guidance. The hon. Gentleman who represents the managers stated emphatically that no guidance had ever been given by the local authority as to the salaries to be paid to the teachers in this school. I can only say that on the 18th of March, 1908, I received a letter from the local authority stating specifically that in April of the previous year they had actually written to the managers stating that they were prepared to pay the salaries in force before the school was thrown on the rates. If that is not guidance I do not know what guidance is. The managers never communicated that letter either to the hon. Gentleman opposite or to the Board.

I am sorry to interrupt. I am not representing the managers, or been in communication with them. I have never seen the managers or written to them, and have nothing whatever to do with them. I simply represent the case on public documents and public grounds.

I am sorry if I put him in a difficult position by saying he represented the managers, but in April, 1907, in answer to a request from the managers for guidance, the authority, by letter, informed the managers that it was prepared to pay in respect of salaries for teachers in these schools the salaries hitherto paid by the authority on behalf of the managers. That was guidance, and the hon. Gentleman denies that guidance was ever given. This was the sort of contradiction that I hoped to have cleared up. I think Mr. Hamilton to a large extent did clear up a great many of the obscurities of this case, and I am grateful to him for the services he rendered. He was not only able, but independent. He had no connection with my office, he was not concerned with the interests of the two sides who were parties to this squabble, and I have certainly nothing but gratitude to express to him for the trouble he took at a very unusual time of the year to ascertain the whole facts.

Then the hon. Gentleman said I was guilty of unreasonable delay. As soon as I was able to go into the tangled case I arranged for Mr. Hamilton to go down. I might have put off his visit until the time the holidays were over. I arranged that his visit should synchronise with the August holidays, and I arranged that he should go down before they were over, in order that there should be no delay. When I got his report I got also an enormous mass of evidence, and I had, as everybody knows, at the time other work to do besides, and I could not possibly give Swansea precedence over general legislation. As soon as that general legislation was disposed of I dealt with the case as quickly and speedily as possible, and I communicated with the managers without waiting for the Christmas holidays. There was no culpable delay on our part. If he is going to talk of delays, there have been delays on both sides. I will not go into the past history of the case, but I think the less he says about delays the better. Then I want to know why I should be personally deemed to have been guilty of some apparently administrative dishonour of some kind or another in not having agreed with my Commissioner. Everybody knows that no Government Department is bound to follow the findings of an inquiry. While I was at the Local Government Board I saw in one way or another dozens of findings by those who held inquiries in localities on local government matters set aside, and it would have been absurd for my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board to say that in every case he must abide by the decision of those who conducted a local inquiry.

A local inquiry is held in order that the President may be able to arrive at a decision. I have arrived at the decision I have after having obtained the highest legal advice I had at my disposal. So far as the legal point is concerned, I do not propose to argue it now, but my hon. and learned Friend is quite prepared to justify any advice that he has given to the Department over which I preside. There seems to be some misapprehension as to what my duty was, and what it was not. It was not my duty to fix the salary in any particular school. I had no right to do so, and hon. Gentlemen have always said that it was not the duty of the Central Department to fix salaries at particular schools. On no point was the right hon. Gentleman who conducted this 1902 Bill through this House more emphatic than on the absolute right of the local authority to control local expenditure, and there is only one qualification to that in the Act of 1902, and that is that the school shall be maintained efficiently. That is now the whole point under dispute. Furthermore, it was not my duty to embark on litigation with the local education authority without considering whether or not, when we entered upon this litigation, we were likely to win or lose the case, and naturally when I was placed in that position the man whom I had to consult was the man who was the highest legal authority at the disposal of the Government. Because I consulted him and acted on his advice I am accused of having been a dishonourable administrator and of having used my great position in order to give a back-handed blow to the Church schools. The right hon. Gentleman almost on the first day of this Session accused me of being guilty of a grave miscarriage of justice. The right hon. Gentleman did not justify that remark, and I challenge him to justify it to-day.

No, he did nothing of the kind. He merely made that bold assertion that I have shown vindictiveness against the Church schools, and decided against the managers merely because it was a Church school. I was actuated by no one of these motives. I do not like the Act of 1902, and I will do my best to repeal it at any time. I hope sooner or later we shall get rid of it, out so long as I have to administer it I shall administer it justly and fairly whether the school is a Church school, a Catholic school, a Wesleyan school, or a Bible Society school. In every case I should be bound to arrive at exactly the same decision. It has been said we might have made an order for the purpose of compelling the authority to fulfil their duty under Section 16 of the Act of 1902, and we might have moved the Court of King's Bench for a mandamus in order to enforce performance of the duties enjoined by the Order. What has already been stated disposes of the suggestion that the Board possessed any such remedy. The Board had been advised that they could not successfully move for a mandamus, and I should have been a fool to ask for a mandamus when I was told by the highest authority at my command that I could not have succeeded.

The other suggestion is that as I might not have succeeded in obtaining a mandamus I ought to have set the Default Act in operation, that I ought to have paid over to the managers any sums spent by them for the purpose of maintaining the school—sums which they say ought to-have been spent by the authority—and that I ought to have deducted a proportionate sum from the Parliamentary grant payable to the authority. But a condition precedent to the Board of Education taking any such course is expressed by the Act to be that they must be satisfied "that it is expedient to do so on account of any default of a local education authority in the performance of their duties," and the same reasons which led the legal adviser of the Government to the conclusion that the Board could not obtain a mandamus applied equally to this case also. That is to say, the authorities, whatever in the future may be the consequence of their action, are not, so far as matters have gone at present, in default, and that is the only question now in issue. The hon. and learned Gentleman suggests that that is against the finding. We all know it is, and it is because it is against the finding that I have issued my decision in the form in which it is now circulated in the Parliamentary Paper. What was my duty in this case? It really came under three heads. I had the duty of deciding any question which had arisen between the authority and the managers under Section 73 of the Act of 1902, and as a necessary preliminary, having regard to the respective conten- tions of the parties and of the obscurities of the case, the prior question of whether any question that the Board had power to decide had so arisen; further possibly also, in one view of the case, the power of making an Order to be subsequently enforced by mandamus under Section 16 of the Act of 1902, if as the result of inquiry, it should appear to the Board that the authority had failed to fulfil their duty. It did not appear to the Board that the authority had failed in the fulfilment of their duty. Whatever may happen in the future, it did not appear at that time that the authority had failed in the fulfilment of their duty. The right hon. Gentleman may not like the decision, but that was the decision arrived at after taking the highest advice open to me. If I had not acted in accordance with the advice given me I should like to know where the Board of Education would ever be? Suppose I, who am not a lawyer, formed my own judgment in a case of this kind, the whole thing might have to be fought out in the Courts, and I might set in motion machinery which would require my going to the Courts for a mandamus, and then, having received the best advice I could get, I threw it on one side and went straight ahead! I have no intention of doing any such thing, and for this very good reason, that the managers up to the present appear to me, and appeared to those who act with me, not to have tested the point as to whether or not there had been default. What did the managers do? They were satisfied, and Mr. Hamilton, I presume, was also satisfied that, the teachers having resigned in a body, default had at once arisen. The managers could have tested the market on the salaries which were fixed by the local education authority, but they did not adopt that course; or they might, if they liked, in the case of each teacher, have tested him and asked whether he would accept the salary which the local authority was prepared to provide, and, if he was not, they might have tried to obtain another at the same rate. If they failed to obtain teachers, default might have arisen, but that point had never been reached. If it is necessary to argue that on its legal bearing there are those on this bench who are quite prepared to argue.

I am asked whether I would allow the case to go to the Courts. What is It? First of all the case merely turns on a matter of fact—was or was not the local authority in default? The only way to-prove that it was in default was by testing the teacher market, and if it was impossible to get teachers at the salaries offered by the local education authority I take it you might have said the local education authority was in default. As a matter of fact it really is a matter whether or not the school might be maintained efficiently, and if the hon. and: learned Gentlemen opposite are going to-calmly suggest that I am to abdicate my functions and go to the Courts and says, the Courts alone are to decide whether or not the school is maintained efficiently, it will put an end altogether to one of the principal functions of the Board of Education—a function which will be as useful to them when they are in office as they are to the education authorities and the managers and the Board of Education now. I am not prepared to surrender the functions which attach to my office. I am not prepared to allow the Courts to decide in a matter of this kind whether or not the schools are efficient. That is a matter which can be decided by my officers and myself perfectly well.

The hon. Gentleman goes on repeating over and over again "the Commissioners." Of course he knows perfectly well what was the function of the Commissioners, and he ought to know what is the function of a Government Department. If I have no intention of abdicating the functions of my office to a Court of Law, I have still less intention of abdicating them to any Commissioner.

If the right hon. Gentleman thinks himself perfectly capable of deciding this matter himself, why does he abdicate his functions and shelter himself behind the Attorney-General?

I have done no such thing. The Government in this matter is prepared to act as a unit. Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that a man who is not a lawyer, who is the head of the Government Department, is always on legal matters to act purely on his own judgment?

The right hon. Gentleman has furnished his own answer to that question. He has said this is a question of fact. He has no business to shelter himself behind anybody.

No, but you cannot decide on a matter which is a question of fact without receiving some legal guidance, and I sought it from the highest quarters. Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that when any case comes up which turns on a question of fact it is not necessary for me to consult the highest legal advice obtainable? No, certainly not, and I certainly did consult the highest legal advice obtainable. I accept the full responsibility for the decision which has been arrived at. The hon. Gentleman stated it was a gross miscarriage of justice, and the Leader of the Opposition said, "I am the person who will go out of office." Why should hon. Gentlemen opposite be angry? I do not believe they are angry for a moment because Mr. Hamilton and the Board acting under advice did not arrive at the same conclusions on what apparently has been happening in Swansea during the last six years. There is nothing wrong in disagreeing with an inquiry. I should like to know what they would have said if Mr. Hamilton had said there was no default, and the Board of Education had decided in the opposite way that the local authority had defaulted. They would then have been perfectly well satisfied. They would not have suggested that I had any corrupt motive, but would have said, "What a fearlessly just man is the President of the Board of Education."

I would not have said so, and I think you ought to have held to and followed the decision of the man to whom you referred it.

Then I should like to know whether the charge against me is that they think there has been some impurity in public administration, or is it that they are really shocked at what has been done by the President of the Board of Education? No. I do not believe they are wedded to a mere abstract idea of that kind. This is a case which will be followed all over the country. It was fought as a test case and certainly, so far as the managers were concerned, and as hon. Gentlemen opposite know perfectly well the case is now discussed in the House not because they have any local interest in Swansea, but because of its general bearing on educational administration. Hon. Gentlemen now have good reason to be angry because they are discovering what they ought to have known when they passed the Act of 1902, how strong is the power of the purse, stronger indeed than ever they intended it to be.

I will not go into the whole merits of the Swansea dispute because that is not challenged. When I am accused of corrupt motives in the administration of my office I say it is totally unfounded and untrue. On the narrow point which has been raised in the course of this controversy, and which was raised with vehemence yesterday in the House of Lords, namely, as to whether or not default had arisen in regard to the payment of teachers' salaries in Swansea, I adhere to the decision I gave in December last, and I am prepared to stand by it to-day.

I confess that the right hon. Gentleman has introduced a great many elements of confusion into the discussion before us. He has told us this is a question of fact. Having sent a learned and very competent Commissioner to inform him on the question of fact, he refers that question of fact to the Law Officers of the Crown to say whether it is a fact or not.

I did not refer it to the Law Officers of the Crown to ask whether it was a fact or not. I referred it to them to ask whether I should be justified in applying for a mandamus against the local authority.

That is a different matter, but nevertheless the Attorney-General's advice resulted in the right hon. Gentleman overruling his Commissioner on the question of fact, and when the Commissioner said the salaries offered to the teachers were, in fact, insufficient for the school, they were not insufficient for the Oxford-street school. It was merely a question of trying to ascertain whether they were or were not.

If that is not over-ruling on a question of fact the finding of your Commissioner—asking the Attorney-General who had not heard the evidence, or been on the spot, to say whether or not the facts found by the Commissioner were facts—that is to say, whether the salaries were inadequate or insufficient—then really I do not know what it was he referred to the learned Attorney-General. We are told that this is a test case—a test case on a question of fact. This is the first time that I ever heard of mere question of fact being treated as a test case to govern the whole country. If this is a test case I am sorry to hear it, and I shall show a reason for it before I am done. The right hon. Gentleman asks what is the duty of the Board of Education. Its duty in this matter is to see that the local authority do their duty, and their duty is to keep the schools efficient. The only way to ascertain whether that is done is through the instrumentality of the Board's inspector, or if further information is wanted sending a competent person such as this Commissioner to investigate, and when that Commissioner reports as to whether the school is efficient it would be idle to refer that question of fact to the Attorney-General. The right hon. Gentleman remarked that his predecessor and the last Government dealt with the matter in a manner no more satisfactory than that in which he had done. May I remind him that the Swansea Local Authority postponed to the very last day the bringing into operation of the Act. It did not come into operation in Swansea until September. 1904. Troubles arose in the spring of 1905. The matter was under consideration, and steps were being taken to bring the local authority to account when we left office, and were then dropped or rather were pursued at the instance of the present Chief Secretary when the ground was altered as I shall show.

The trouble began in 1905. In 1906 the Chief Secretary wrote the local authority that the salaries paid the teachers were gravely imperilling the efficiency of the school. There was a fair prospect that the local authority would be brought to a sense of its duty. Thereupon the local authority shifted its ground, and, as is not uncommon with Welsh local authorities, they began to ask for a standard of equipment and structural efficiency for a voluntary school on a wholly different and higher scale than is permissible in the Council school. The playground demanded for the Oxford-street school is on a larger scale, I believe, than that demanded for any of the Council's schools in Swansea. At any rate, the right hon. Gentleman may rest assured that we shall endeavour to ascertain whether the Council schools are in all respects as well equipped as the Board of Education requires that other schools should be.

The expert stated that the accommodation is twice what it ought to be.

I do not understand it. The local authority reduced the number of the school, for this reason. In the Council school in Swansea I believe I am right in saying that no religious instruction whatever is given. Whatever we may say as to the rights of parents to insist on this or that form of religious instruction for children, I think that parents in Swansea have some right to say whether or not some religious instruction should be given to the children.

You know very well, having regard to the building, that the number was too much. Instead of 1,400 children it was 886.

I understand that the Oxford-street School has afforded accommodation for about 1,000 children for some time past and is affording it now; and it is very desirable in the educational conditions in Swansea that it should afford that accommodation to those parents who desire religious instruction for their children. When these difficulties had been got over which are so constantly raised in the case of Voluntary schools, there arose again this question of the differentiation of salaries of teachers. After a long beginning, the present Mr. Justice Hamilton inquired into the matter.

I may remind the right hon. Gentleman that the question of salaries was also raised while he was in office. I have piles of correspondence as to that before me.

I have already given the fact that the question of salaries was raised while I was in office. In the spring and summer of 1905 the Board of Education was in correspondence with the local authority to endeavour to insist upon a proper scale of salary when we left office, and I will tell how the matter would have been dealt with if we had been there and the Commissioner found these things, that the local authority had established a different scale of salaries in the Council and the voluntary schools, and that in consequence of that teachers were resigning. Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously say that managers are to go advertising at scales of salaries which they know no teacher will accept until the school is derelict of teachers, and that then and not until then the Board of Education will come in and say that the local authority is not entirely performing its duty—because that I understand to be the contention of the right hon. Gentleman—the school must be absolutely denuded of teachers before the Board of Education will think it necessary to intervene. He said there was not merely comparative inefficiency as between the Oxford-street and the Council school, but there was actual inefficiency, and he definitely found that the authority was in default.

The right hon. Gentleman was told that the authority was in default. Two courses were before him. If he were in doubt on the point of law he might have proceeded by mandamus, and got a decision of the Court. That is what he did in the West Riding case. Or he might have put the Defaulting Authorities Act into operation. I will tell what happened in the case of Barry where no trouble has arisen since. There was only one voluntary school—a Roman Catholic school. The local authorities insisted on a scale of staff and salary different from what it gave in its own school. It was not very long before we left office, and the case of Barry was stated by the present Solicitor-General with great clearness and force. I had to inform him that this was going to happen—that we were satisfied that for this particular school a certain scale of salary and staff was necessary, that we were also satisfied that efficient teachers' names were before us who would fill the places at that scale of salaries, and that these names would be submitted by the manager to the local educational authority for their approval under the Act of 1902, and that if the local authority did not approve of them we should approve of them under the Defaulting Authorities Act, and they would thereupon enter upon their duties; in due course of time the salaries would come to be paid, and we had every reason to hope that they would pay them, but if they did not pay them the Board of Education would pay them and deduct the money from the Parliamentary grant which would otherwise have gone to the local educational authority. I have reason to believe that on that statement Barry agreed to pay the necessary scale of salaries, and to provide the necessary staff for the Roman Catholic school, and I venture to think that if the right hon. Gentleman had the courage to defy any defaulting Welsh authority, and tell them that if they did not provide the teachers or the salaries he should provide them, and that the Swansea ratepayers would have to find the difference, the Swansea Council would have settled down quietly under the determined action of the Board of Education. We had every reason to hope that Swansea, like Barry, would come to terms, and do what the local authority ought to do without that painful necessity.

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has the correspondence before him. On 5th September, 1905, there was a complaint about the staff. The managers of the school wrote to say that the position was intolerable, and the managers formally charged the local authority at that date with failing to keep the school efficient, and appealed to the Board for relief.

This correspondence began in the summer of 1905. As he and his predecssors very well know, you take some time negotiating with a local authority endeavouring to persuade it to fulfil its duty when it is in default, and I really think that if in September the managers said that the position was intolerable, and we put the Defaulting Authorities Act into operation in October, we might fairly have been charged with rashness amounting to precipitation in our conduct. The Barry case had gone on for a much longer time. 1 am not much concerned to defend myself when the managers said that the position was intolerable in September, and the Defaulting Authorities Act was not put into operation before the end of November, when we left office.

The right hon. Gentleman got a report with all information from his Commissioner, but he did not want to put the Defaulting Authorities Act into operation. It does not make one very popular, as I know to my cost, if one administers the Education Act with a strict desire to be judicial; and the only question which I can see was the question of the propriety of the course to adopt. Was there any point of law which would justify him in taking proceedings by mandamus instead of acting under the Defaulting Authorities Act? If there was any point of law the right course would be to get the decision of a court of law; but when he says that this is a test case, are we to be bound for all time by this ruling of the Attorney-General that the local authority is to be entitled to differentiate between one class of school and another, and that the Council schools in every case, if the local authorities so please, are to have a higher rate of salaries for teachers than the voluntary schools?—because that is what it comes to.

This is said to be a test case involving questions of law or fact, and probably both law and fact, but if there was ever so much law in it we should not be bound by the ruling of the Attorney-General in a matter of such importance. Practically the right hon. Gentleman has informed us that, on the strength of the opinion by the Attorney-General, local authorities throughout the country may starve every voluntary school into a state of absolute inefficiency. [MINISTERIAL cries of "No."] Yes, because your Commission has found that the school is inefficient. The Attorney-General did not hear the witnesses, and he will not contend that he is a judge of the facts. The only defence set up in another place was that the school, owing to the exertions of the managers, was being kept in such a condition as to be not undeserving of the receipt of the Parliamentary grant. Is that a state of things which ought to continue? Are you going to put all the voluntary schools into the position they were in before the Act of 1902? They were not only to be brought under the local authority, but they would have to subsist very largely upon voluntary resources and subscriptions. If this is the interpretation put upon an Act of Parliament which clearly indicates that all schools should be treated alike, what is the good of telling us that the President of the Board of Education is the very last person who ought to be charged with acting harshly to any voluntary school? The Prime Minister said that the President of the Board of Education is carrying the olive branch up and down the country to the voluntary schools, but here is a case of a clear finding of fact by a competent Commissioner showing that a voluntary school is suffering injury, and the local authority is in default. You go to the Attorney-General and get his opinion, and he says the school is not inefficient, and the local authority is not in default. This is taken as a test case to rule all other cases, and then the matter is closed, and there is no appeal to any court or to any other power in the United Kingdom. Under these circumstances, I would like to know what would have been the worth of the right of entry which they were offered? It is all very well to hold out suggestions and hopes of peace, but you will not get peace in education until you get an honest and judicial administration of the Acts.

The right hon. Gentleman says "Hear, hear," as though he were the first President who had endeavoured to administrate the Act honestly and judicially. I hope that this case will not rest here, and that we shall get a decision in some form or other in a court of law.

I have listened with great attention to this debate, and I have concluded that the right hon. Gentleman is not guilty of any mala fides in the action he has taken. I think, however, he has a very weak case, and he has acted against his own better judgment. My firm belief is, if I may use the term, that the evil genius of the piece is the Attorney-General. I think he is the person who has persuaded the right hon. Gentleman to act against his better judgment, and he is the person primarily responsible for the mess in which the Board of Education have got.

One of the reasons why I think the right hon. Gentleman has acted against his own better judgment is that it is very remarkable after he got this report, he asked whether he could get a mandamus. If he had not agreed with the report surely he would not have asked whether he could have got a mandamus. It is evidence that he was entirely of the same opinion as Mr. Justice Hamilton in the fact that he asked whether he could not take proceedings in consequence of the report. For the moment it seems to have occurred to him that it would have been wiser to see if there was any way round it, or out of it, and consequently he appealed to the Attorney-General, and, with the ingenuity which always characterises him, the hon. and learned Gentleman devised this answer to the question to the effect that no mandamus could be granted. The Attorney-General does not say whether he also advised proceedings under the Local Authorities Default Act. I should have thought he would have given a full legal opinion, and if he was of opinion they could not get a mandamus under the circumstances—an opinion which, by the way, other legal luminaries do not at all agree with—he might have raised the question, and answered it as to how far the right hon. Gentleman could have acted under the Local Authorities Default Act. I think it would have been possible to have taken action under that legislation, and it is desirable that we should be shown clearly why it was not possible to take that course.

The defence of the President of the Board of Education has proceeded much on the same lines as that adopted by Lord Wolverhampton in the Upper House. All who listened to Lord Wolverhampton's speech must have come away with the belief that he had made out no case at all, and if no better case can be put forward in this House the Government ought to alter the whole course of their proceedings. Lord Wolverhampton said—and the President of the Board of Education has supported him—that one of the bases of his argument was that the fixing of the salaries lies solely with the local education authority, and therefore the Board of Education could not interfere, and the fixing of salaries was really beyond their control. The fixing of salaries is part of the maintaining and keeping efficient the school, and it is the business of the Board of Education to see that the local authority does maintain and keep efficient the school. If the Board of Education cannot interfere with any local education authority which, out of spite or otherwise, chooses to pay an infinitesimal salary to teachers in a non-provided school, I think the Board is neglecting its duty. The whole position is perfectly unreasonable, because if the Attorney-General's rule is to stand every teacher in any non-provided school in the country might be starved so far as his or her salary is concerned whenever any local education authority thought fit to take that course. I maintain most strongly that it is the duty of the Board of Education to interfere in such a case to see that the school is properly maintained and kept efficient by the payment of proper salaries, and if local authorities decline to pay proper salaries they should be proceeded against under the Local Authorities Default Act.

Then Lord Wolverhampton said—and the President of the Board of Education again supports him—that:— impartial observers to be a political and party discretion. The Education Bill brought forward during the last Autumn Session provided in three separate places that the decisions of the Board of Education should be final. In each of those places I ventured to put down Amendments to the effect that there should be an appeal to the High Court of Justice. I had a great belief then that such a course might be necessary, more especially after the action of the immediate predecssor of the right hon. Gentleman at the Board of Education. I can only say, in the light of present events, it is more than ever necessary in any future Education Act that provision should be made for an appeal—

Order, order. The hon. Member cannot discuss, future legislation.

I apologise for transgressing your ruling, Mr. Chairman. The Attorney-General says he is decisively of opinion that no mandamus would be granted as long as there is a contingency, and that you have to wait until the school has become inefficient before you can get a mandamus. Mr. Hamilton's Report points out that unless the managers had paid the salaries of these teachers, of course the school would have become inefficient. The effect of the Attorney-General's ruling is that any local educational authority who wishes to be spiteful to any non-provided schools can order minimum salaries to be paid far below the scale recognised by the National Union of Teachers, and no mandamus can be taken out against them so long as they are supporters of the non-provided system. Because the managers have personally kept the schools efficient against the wishes of the Swansea Town Council, therefore the Board of Education say that they can do nothing whatever for the managers. That is simply quibbling and juggling, and no words are too strong to condemn the ultimate effect of the Attorney-General's ruling, however ingenious or legal that ruling in itself may be. I should like to know why the Board of Education differentiate in the matter of salaries between Council schools and non-provided schools. They did not do so when they wrote in July, 1906, to the effect that there was not sufficient ground for any differentiation. What right have they to do this when their own Report states: "That no circumstances appeared to the Commissioner to justify any differentiation of those salaries."

Unless we can be shown by direct evidence that there is some distinct ground for this course, I think we ought to condemn the action which the President of the Board of Education has taken. And one point more: If this non-provided school arrangement is efficient, why does not the Board of Education press for a reduction of salary in Council schools? They appear to maintain that the present low rate of salaries offered by the Swansea Education Committee is sufficient to maintain the school as an "efficient." If that is so, I suppose the same rate of salaries would be sufficient to keep the Council schools efficient too, and I think it was the duty of the Board of Education in this case to say that unduly high salaries were paid in the Council schools. I do not understand how they can support, and not criticise, the higher rate of salary in the Council schools in Swansea and other parts of the Kingdom when they are perfectly satisfied to take the low scale of salaries offered by the Swansea Education Authority as sufficient and ample for the purpose of maintaining the efficiency of this school. What is the use of an impartial report, which finds as distinctly as it does, and unravels as clearly as it does, the tangle of this squabble, if it is to be put aside at the ruling of the Attorney-General? I venture to say that is quite an inadequate ground for declining to proceed either by way of mandamus or by urging upon the local authorities their duty. I think it was sufficiently obvious from the debate in the House of Lords yesterday that there are many eminent lawyers who think that the first course is perfectly possible in order to bring the Swansea Education Authority to book. I hope that after this debate, after the criticisms that have been shown as well grounded against the action of the President of the Board of Education—I do not make any charge against him of mala fides —that he will reconsider the whole situation, and act so as to make the Swansea County Council act as I think we all think they ought to.

I feel bound upon this matter to record my vote against the Government. I wish in a few words to explain my views of the situation. We are told by the right hon. Gentleman that when he came into office he found a vast amount of correspondence in relation to this matter. He found the issues very much entangled, and felt it was necessary to take some steps which would succeed in placing them before his own mind in a somewhat clearer position than they were. He therefore adopted the course—not altogether unusual—of selecting a very eminent lawyer—one who had since been chosen for a Judge—to disentangle these complicated issues. He did so. The right hon. Gentleman was presented with findings which were tolerably clear, about which there is no ambiguity, or apparent ambiguity. The right hon. Gentleman has, notwithstanding that, distinctly—and quite honestly— taken an opposite view, and felt it to be his duty to do that which he professed himself either unable or unwilling to do a few months before, to disentangle these complicated issues, which apparently have been made more complicated by the very lucid and clear findings of the eminent lawyer who had been sent to Swansea.

Now I do not for a moment think that it is unconstitutional for a Department of State to overrule an officer whom they have sent down to make inquiries. It is constitutional. I believe it is sometimes done in the Education and other Departments, but more usually when an officer is one of the regular staff of the Department. I doubt whether, in the history of inquiries in this country, you will find a case in which you have an admittedly complicated set of circumstances, which the Minister in charge finds so complicated that he wants special advice to disentangle, and where, having got that advice, having gone outside his office and sent down an eminent lawyer to inquire, and that he has thereupon entirely disregarded his findings and overruled them, as he says, not on a question of law, but on a question of mere fact which his adviser went down to ascertain. That is the position to-day. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is entitled to say: "The gentleman I sent down, as a matter of fact, has gone wrong. He did not go thoroughly into the question, or he was deceived, and I have got some other facts before me which he had not got before him."

I do not want to treat the question merely from the purely legal point of view, which has often been taken by a Higher Court towards a lower when a case from the lower goes to the higher, and the higher says: "You have heard the witnesses, you have seen their demeanour, you are able from a thousand minutiae which cannot be put into print to judge whether they were telling the truth or not. We are not going into the facts of the case, and will not overrule the judgment on that." That argument has some weight.

What I do say is this: When the right hon. Gentleman overrules the findings of his distinguished Commissioner he ought to put the House in possession of some information which was not before this Commissioner, or some specific fact upon which he thinks this Commissioner was mistaken. We have not been told in the course of this debate—I came into it hoping that the right hon. Gentleman would convince me, and that I should be able to-night to give my vote for him—we have not heard a single fact that was not before the Commissioner. There has been some suggestion that the local education committee might have taken some course which it did not take. I really forget what the suggestion was, but it had something to do with the issue of advertisements. The Commissioner does find that the local education authority did issue advertisements for teachers, and got no satisfactory answers. I do not wish to suggest as a general rule that in no case should a local authority be countenanced in giving a lower rate of salaries to teachers of non-provided schools than to teachers of provided schools. I think there may be circumstances in which such a course would be justifiable. Such circumstances arose in London when the Act of 1902 was first put into force. It would have been almost impossible for the London Education Committee, without causing great inconvenience, to have found the large sum of money which would have been necessary to place the salaries of the non-provided school teachers on the same level as the teachers of the provided schools. But I gather from the Commissioner's Report that there are only two places in England in which the local authority does not place the teachers in the non-provided schools on the same level as regards salaries as the teachers in the provided schools. I say, therefore, when you have got such circumstances, and a third education authority adopt a course of that kind, it is upon that local authority to justify itself. I think the onus of proof of showing that the schools are maintained efficiently is upon the local authority which adopts the course which is only adopted in two other towns in the country. I am bound to say that when one reads the report of the Commissioner that I do not think the local authority has justified the giving of less salaries, and I do not think—if I may say so-that the right hon. Gentleman should shelter himself in this matter beneath the authority of the Attorney-General.

I thought that was the position. I think the Attorney-General has been once or twice referred to in the discussion on this matter. The Government having received the report of this. complication on this tangled state of things —the Government, having received that report, ought to have endeavoured to act on it, even if they were unsuccessful in doing so. I think they ought to have applied —upon this report—for a mandamus , or taken those administrative steps which would have enabled them to compel the Swansea local authority to do its duty. In, conclusion, I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman would have acted in the same way if this had been a school of any other denomination than the Church of England. I would be the last man in the word to blame the administration of the Education Act by the right hon. Gentleman. I am sure he has approached it as a matter of buiness, in a perfectly fair and impartial spirit. I do complain that in this particular case he has made a mistake. I think it was made, and I think it so important that the impartiality of his office should be mainained, that I feel obliged, with very great regret, to record my vote against him.

The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think it strange and somewhat unnatural that Members on this side of the House did not look upon this question from the point of view of the interests merely of Swansea, and considered that we were trying to deal with this question as one of general administration. The right hon. Gentleman, so far as I am concerned, is perfectly correct. I make no denial of it, that I look upon this question not merely as one affecting Swansea, but as one of large and important administrative issues. The right hon. Gentleman will not be surprised that, after having spent the whole of my life in the Department over which he now so ably presides, I should feel not only a strong interest in it, but a great jealousy for the honour and impartiality of that Department.

I know quite well that the right hon. Gentleman has no wish to act partially. He will give me credit that I do not wish to insinuate anything of the sort. I think he has been, in this case, misled, and has fallen away from the standard set by his predecessors; fallen into a very serious partiality and bias. I am old enough to remember the civil servants who presided over that Department so long ago as Lord Lingen and Lord Sandford. They were men actively opposed in political opinions, but both of them have said to me over and I over again: "Remember within the walls of this Department you will find that 95 per cent, of the business does not vary in the slightest degree according to our political masters. All we have to do is to administer Acts and Regulations without fear and without favour." Exactly the same was said by every successive political chief under whom I have served. Mr. Foster and the late Duke of Richmond, who were opposite extremes, always told me: "Act according to the letter and the spirit of the Act of Parliament you administer. Leave us to do our fighting in the House of Commons and elsewhere." Now, with regard to this particular question and the way it has been dealt with, I know quite well that there are certain cases in which the right hon. Gentleman must be guided by local opinion, and must then judge as to the action he takes upon that local opinion. But he has a legal adviser in his Department itself for many years past. Ordinary legal questions are referred to the legal advisers of the Department, and if the right hon. Gentleman feels any difficulty with regard to the advice given his business then is to refer the matter to the Law Officers of the Crown. Such things were constantly occurring all through my official experience. Where there was doubt or difficulty in following precisely the opinion of the salaried legal adviser then the matter was referred to the Law Officers of the Crown. But quite a different case arises when a certain set of facts has to be inquired into, when evidence has to be taken with regard to them, when the professional opinion of a high legal authority has to be taken. I am sorry to say that the right hon. Gentleman fell into the same mistake—and I am quite ready to say it was a very grave mistake—which was made by Lord Wolverhampton in another place, when he compared the inquiry made by Mr. Hamilton (now Mr. Justice Hamilton) with the inquiries made by the inspectors of the Local Government Board or of the Education Department. The two cases are totally different; there is no comparison or analogy between them. An inspector of the Education Department when sent to make an inquiry is always instructed carefully as to the exact lines he is to follow. He submits his conclu- sions at each stage to his Department; he is in constant correspondence with it, and he is subject to the orders of the permanent head of the Department, just as is anyone else employed in the office. When you have exhausted your powers of regular and ordinary administration, and you have to institute something in the nature of a quasi-judicial Court, then the matter assumes an entirely different character. Such things arise constantly in public Departments. You might refer a question of accounts to a professional auditor, and when that professional auditor had reported would the right hon. Gentleman presume to go behind his report and say he had come to a different conclusion? Supposing a medical question arises, as constantly occurs in connection with the Education Department, and supposing it is referred to an important professional medical man, would the right hon. Gentleman overturn the conclusion at which he arrived without taking advice? In like manner, when you refer a matter to a judicial Commissioner outside the Department, you have abandoned for the time your administrative functions; you have come to the conclusion that those administrative functions are not adequate to deal with the case. But it is before you take that course that you should consult the Law Officers of the Crown if you are in any legal difficulty; but when you have appointed a gentleman who is perfectly free from your control, and who is appointed because he is independent and perfectly clear of your authority, then you have no right to revise his decision or to refer it to the Law Officers of the Crown. I contend that the Court presided over by a King's Counsel as judicial Commissioner was a judicial Court or it was nothing at all. You cannot say that he was merely an inspector sent down to hold an inquiry, and the Attorney-General has no more right to override his decision on the question than he would have to override the decision of a magistrate in the City of London. Besides, I would point out that the right hon. Gentleman has placed himself to-day in an extraordinary position. It was very difficult to find out after his consultation with the Attorney-General whether he overturned the decision of Mr. Hamilton on a question of fact or on a question of law. I really failed to find out. He said that the question which he had put to the Attorney-General was whether he had power to issue a mandamus in this par- ticular case. But why was it necessary to issue a mandamus when he came to the conclusion that the facts were not as represented by Mr. Hamilton, and that the finding of the Judicial Commissioner, being entirely wrong, he himself overturned it? Why, in that case, did he not ask whether there was any likelihood of success on appeal to the High Court? I quite admit that after he had got the decision of the Judicial Commissioner before him he was then fully entitled to ask the Attorney-General what course he could pursue with regard to the decision. He could have asked: "May I set it aside altogether; may I now abandon the proceedings that I have taken, and consider them as absolutely wiped out?" Although that, I think, would have been possibly an extremely strange position to take up, yet it might have been a legal position. I do not think he had any right to ask the Attorney-General to revise the finding of the Commissioner on a question of fact. I quite admit, however, that he had a right to ask the Attorney-General whether he should proceed by mandamus before the High Court or under the Defaulters Act. These were questions on which the Attorney-General's opinion could have been properly given. But what the learned Attorney-General did was either to assume a judicial function over a Judicial Court or it was nothing at all. In this particular case you hand over your authority and judgment to one who was independent. His strength and his value lay in his independence. He gave his judgment independently. You have submitted that judgment to the Law Officer, and you ask the Law Officer to take upon himself an authority to which he had no right, and which did not properly belong to him, and in giving a decision of this sort he has laid aside the judgment of the Court to which he referred the case—a case in which there were fair grounds for doubt and question, and one in which the friends and managers of the school feel that they have not had justice done.

I think it may be fairly said of the right hon. Gentleman that during the whole of his administration at the Board of Education he has always, as on the occasion of the introduction of his Bill, shown a desire to bring about some friendly arrangement either at the cost of some considerable concession on his own part or on the part of his political friends. Therefore I do not go into the question of whether there was or was not an improper motive in what has been done in this particular piece of administration. The part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech to which I take most exception, and the part which I hailed with least satisfaction, was that in which he declined to enable this matter to be amicably decided in a court of law. I wish he had proposed to follow the precedent which was arrived at in what was known as the West Riding of Yorks case. In that case the local authority had some doubt as to the interpretation of the law. They took it that it was not their duty to pay to the teachers employed in the non-provided schools who spent part of their time in giving a certain kind of instruction under the direction of the managers, as large a salary as they would pay teachers in provided schools under the local authority. Although there was in that case the same difficulty with regard to a mandamus , it was agreed by legal consent between the local authority, the Board of Education, and the managers of the schools that a mandamus would be the more convenient way of bringing the matter before the court. The matter was brought before the court in that way, and a decision was taken. On that occasion the Court of First Instance decided that the local authority was in the right, and then the matter came before the House of Lords, and it was shown that they were in the wrong. Legal opinions differed. The opinion of Mr. Justice Hamilton may be thoroughly sound, and the opinion of the Attorney-General may be thoroughly sound, but I submit that in a case of this kind the proper course is to go to the High Court of Justice. I understand that the point has resolved itself into this: It is alleged by the Opposition that the legal duty was to keep the school efficient. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that if the teachers had left the school and declined to go back there would have been vacant places, and the school would have become inefficient, in which event he could then have acted. The point of law was whether efficiency consists of teachers being at their work and paid no salary, or of teachers being kept there under proper terms by the local authority; but I would point out that there was not taken into account the fact that the average salaries of teachers had largely increased compared with what they were before.

The salaries which obtained in 1902 and 1903, or whatever the appointed day may be, were very much inferior to what the teachers obtain to-day. I noticed in the speech of my right hon. Friend the fact that if by the refusal of the local authority to pay sufficient salaries to teachers in voluntary schools were becoming inefficient they would regard it as being a case for a mandamus it might be regarded as a precedent whereby throughout the country local authorities might be encouraged to adopt some plan to bring about the closing of the schools by refusing to pay the voluntary school teachers' salaries. I will make the plea that in this matter the persons who are suffering most are the teachers. This is a matter of high policy for the churches and other persons, it is a matter of great public interest to the local education authority in Swansea, and of great interest to the managers of the schools.

It is a fighting matter, but in the pleasure of fighting and suffering, the dangers of fighting the people who suffer are the teachers in the schools. [Several Hon. Members: "The children."] Yes; the children suffer to some extent, but it has yet to be proved that the teachers did not suffer more than the children. I have not heard it said that they have not done their duty to the children. It could not be alleged that the school is inefficient. The Board of Education are advised by the inspector that the schools are efficient, but whether they are to be kept in that way or not, it ought to go before a court of law. It is cruel to the teachers, who, by a sense of duty, maintain efficiency in the state of the schools, where the conditions of the school are impaired. That is the cruel point, and if the teachers suffer now, the children in a little time might suffer also. This is a matter which should be taken out of party politics and ecclesiastical debate.

The eminently reasonable suggestion made by the last speaker ought to be followed by the Government. I do not expect it will be, because the Government are conscious that they have got a thoroughly bad case, and I do not think, having a thoroughly bad case, they will be wise to submit it to the impartial judgment of the Judges of the High Court. I think I can prove they have a bad case. They have, in the first place, changed front no less than three times in the course of the past two days. I was present during the entire debate in another place. The defence that was raised there was rather the defence that the Board of Education first took up. It was stated in writing in their decision, and it was stated to have been given under the deed of advice. That decision stated in the clearest and most succinct terms that the crucial question was one of fact. I will quote from it:— mandamus. " That is the third defence.

Let me examine very briefly how absolutely indefensible they all are. The first question is that those facts found by the independent Commissioner are wrong and do not amount to a default. In other words, that the failure to pay sufficient salaries to the teachers did not, as a matter of fact, render the school inefficient. Is the school efficient or not? Who ought to be the judge of that? Certainly not the Attorney-General, if I may say so with respect. The Board of Education itself are infinitely more competent to decide the question of the efficiency or inefficiency than even the Attorney-General. Of course, the Attorney-General is a man for whom I have great respect, and it would be idle to say he is not a man of great intelligence. His judgment, I put it to hon. Gentlemen opposite, ought not to be taken on a question of fact against men who have been studying the question of educational efficiency all their lives. That is what the advisers of the right hon. Gentleman have been doing on the question of efficiency.

They have infinitely greater experience than the Attorney-General, but it does not stop there. You have the finding of fact uncontradicted, found by the Commissioner himself. You have the evidence given before him by no less than four witnesses, all justifying in the most conclusive way that the school was rendered inefficient. You have the specific finding that the school was precarious as a result. And who are the people who are to answer that? Why, of course, the local authority themselves. They knew better than to go into the witness-box and endeavour to contradict the evidence. I am afraid, not for the last time in this case, they tried to hide behind their advocate's gown. It is absolutely axiomatic at all legal inquiries if direct evidence is given by one side and the other side are afraid to go into the witness box to contradict it; it is axiomatic that not merely must the facts be accepted which are given in evidence, and which are uncontradicted by those most qualified to contradict them, but that every legitimate inference can be drawn from those facts against those who have been afraid to dispute them.

It does not altogether stop there. Not merely is there the irresistible inference from the absence of the witnesses by the local authority, but you have the right hon Gentleman's predecessor in 1906 stating— I need not quote his words, as they have been quoted already—that the action of the local authority in refusing to pay those salaries would gravely impair, and did impair, the educational efficiency of the school. Therefore the Board of Education themselves, before they were advised by the Attorney-General, say that this action could not be defended. You have the judge who saw the witnesses. You have the managers who gave evidence on the one side, and finally you have the inference to be drawn from the circumstance that the opposite party dare not face cross-examination. Now I ask the House to say as candid men whether they are in any doubt of the facts. I do not think there is a doubt, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman professed there was a doubt to-day. He said he had to consult his law officer, and his law officer gave him legal advice. I do not believe in any tribunal if he were asked what his view of the conduct of this local authority was he would say it was other than shabby and lawless conduct. What is the alternative defence of the three given yesterday in another place, and which, I must assume, is the defence relied on by the Department, because their representatives stated it yesterday? They said, assume those facts are true, assume that they are not a breach of duty on the part of the authority in paying those salaries, because they were supplemented by the generosity of the managers, with the result that there was no loss of efficiency. That in the first place is not correct, as he found there was a loss of efficiency. The Commissioner says he finds as a fact that the position of the school was precarious.

The right hon. Gentleman states that there has been a finding that the efficiency of the school is impaired. That is not so. There has been a finding that the efficiency of the school is imperilled, which is a very different thing.

The Commissioner reports on page 8, sec. 16, that the efficiency of the school is, owing to the course taken by the authority, precarious. The question whether or not a school is precarious is a question of fact. Will the Attorney-General say that if the question was whether a ship was sea-worthy that would not be a question of fact which could be laid before a jury? Would he say that the question whether or not a motor-car was precarious was not a question of fact to be decided by a jury? Does he think it would be necessary for him to go into that motor-car and have an accident before the question of fact as to its precariousness could be decided? Does he think it would be necessary for the sailors to be drowned before a jury could pro- nounce whether or not the ship was seaworthy? He has too much good sense to say any such thing. When the Commissioner reports that the school is in a precarious condition, the fact cannot be upset by any lawyer, however eminent, sitting in his room, who has not seen the evidence, and which evidence those on the other side have not been able to go into the witness-box and disprove. Therefore, I say that the point, which evidently the Attorney-General is going to take, that this finding is not a finding of fact, but a prophecy as to the future, is unsound. When it is said that a school is in a precarious condition it is not correct to say that that statement is merely a prophecy as to the future; it is a statement of a fact at present existing. The last refuge of the President of the Board of Education appeared to be this: Well, it may be quite true that the local authority have behaved very shabbily; they may have made a most undue call upon the generosity of the managers; they may have caused the teachers dismay, and put them into confusion; they may have caused resignations and upset the school; all that may be true, but I dare not act; I must go to my Attorney-General and ask whether a mandamus would lie. The right hon. Gentleman has told us to-day that the Attorney-General advised him that a mandamus would not lie under the circumstances. Is that the defence he makes to the charge against his Department? As he does not reply, I may assume that it is.

If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to know, I do not say that that is the sole defence; it is one of the items I mentioned in the course of my statement.

I am not saying that the remedy by mandamus is the most appropriate that could be used under the conditions I have portrayed. But I will not pause to criticise the Attorney-General's opinion on this point, although there is a recent and cogent precedent against his view in the West Riding case, when a mandamus was not only applied for, but granted.

The circumstances were different, and he may think—1 should be inclined to agree—that procedure by mandamus is a not very easily used weapon.

But what about the-report? If there is no doubt that the failure to pay the salaries of the teachers, did in point of fact impair the efficiency of the school—and that is proved—and if every possible means of persuasion has been applied to the local authority without success, what in the world was there to prevent the Board of Education from, paying the salaries themselves, and withdrawing the money from the Parliamentary grant? I challenge the Attorney-General to say why that was not a proper and convenient remedy when every other alternative had been exhausted. I have not shown any desire to hamper the right hon. Gentleman in his efforts for peace;, on the contrary, I have done the best 1 could to assist him, but 1 do say that when the question of the efficiency of a school comes before him, we are entitled to have his decision upon it, and when. Parliament has given his Department the duty of adjudicating in a judicial spirit on these matters, he has no right to abdicate his functions and shelter himself behind the Attorney-General, who, whatever his abilities may be, is an officer of the Government and not a judicial officer to-decide a question of this sort.

The case against the Government is made infinitely more grave by the remark of the right hon. Gentleman to-day that this is to be a test case. Therefore, throughout the length and breadth of the country, on the authority of the Board of Education, it is to be said to every local-authority, "Stint the teachers of voluntary schools as much as you like; so long as they have sufficient devotion and self-sacrifice to supplement their salaries by their own bounty, we, the Board of Education, on the advice of our Attorney-General, are powerless to act against you, or to insist upon your doing your duty." What an announcement to make to the-people of the country! Surely there is enough passion in these matters already. We have had long experience of it. If local authorities, anxious to paralyse Church and voluntary schools, have that authority, many of them are certain to-act in that way. Are we really to be told that under this Act of Parliament with these powers given to his Department, the right hon. Gentleman is paralysed and unable to act in defence of the voluntary schools? Whatever view the Committee-may take on the matter, there can be only one impartial opinion after the finding of Mr. Hamilton and the admissions which have been made in this House and elsewhere. I trust that the House, having given powers of a judicial character to the Board of Education, will see to it that they are exercised honestly, impartially, and, above all, with courage and strength.

The right hon. Gentleman began his remarks by charging the Government with being afraid to bring this case before the Courts of Justice because they were conscious of the badness of their case, and that view appears to commend itself to some hon. Members opposite. If it is the fact that grounds of action lie against this local authority, grounds so cogent and clear as have been suggested, it would not be very easy for the Government to keep the case out of court. Where grounds of action lie, the party aggrieved can himself take the matter into court. If this is a case for the courts and not for Departmental decision, why do not hon. Members opposite take it into court? They are no doubt well advised. If they have not a law officer, they have doubtless some one of equal intellectual standing given them what he considers appropriate advice; but they apparently have not thought it worth while to bring the case before the court.

Is not that a very good reason why the Board should not take the case into court? You cannot take into court a question of the efficiency of the school which has to be decided by the Department. That is entirely a Departmental question. It is absurd, therefore, to charge the Government with not taking into court a case which is not within the competence or jurisdiction of the court.

I have not only considered that case, but I advised on it, I was in it, and I argued it; the Committee may, therefore, take it from me that it was a totally different case from this. The right hon. Gentleman made certain observations in regard to the conduct of the local education authority, describing it as "shabby" and "lawless," and contrasting it with the generosity of the managers. As observations of that sort have been made so frequently and emphatically in the course of the debate, I will ask the Committee to look back upon the general conduct of the parties. The Department had to take this school over under the Act of 1902. It was a school purporting to provide accommodation for 1,414 scholars. In 1903 it was condemned, not merely in a few particulars capable of reasonable repair, but under circumstances involving a substantial reconstruction of the school. One would have expected that these generous managers and this "shabby" and "lawless" authority would have seen that the matter was put right immediately. The buildings were condemned in August, 1903; the plans for repair were not submitted until March, 1905, which does not look as though the authority were very exigent during that time. Generally when called upon to advise in these cases I have found that the complaint of the school is that the authority are urging them to execute repairs within an unreasonably short space of time. Here, on the contrary, the delay amounts almost to negligence on the part of the authority in favour of the school. When the plans were submitted they provided for 937 children instead of 1,414, and the local authority said, with justice, that having regard to the playground space about the school, there was accommodation for only about 500—I think the precise number was 450. The contention has since been confirmed by the local authority, and it is one which I think nobody now ventures to dispute. Therefore there is some considerable difference between the local education authority and the managers of the school in which the whole point is in favour of the local education authority. Here, again, do they take advantage of the position? Do they refuse to maintain the school, or do they subject it to any oppressive or harsh treatment? Not at all. The matter goes on. The local education authority still let them carry on the school right away to the end of 1906—the school which was condemned in 1903, and in respect of which plans were presented in 1905. It is not until December, 1906, that the local education authority give notice that they would not maintain the school at all unless their reasonable requirements were carried out. You do not get there very much of this shabby and lawless treatment of which we have heard so much. In the meantime, all that the managers have done is to execute some trivial repairs of an urgent sanitary nature.

May I ask whether the delay was not almost entirely due to the architect of the local education authority?

I think not. It is their plans which have to be considered, and it is their plans which have to be approved. Then it is said that the local authority did not specify their requirements. It is suggested when you have a school condemned to such an extent as to involve reconstruction that you cannot expect the local authority to treat it in the same manner as a schedule for repairs. Then there was an appeal to the Board of Education on the part of the managers. There, again, you have brought into action an independent and impartial body of men. On both sides of the House it will be fully agreed that in the whole range of the public service you have not superiors to those who are now controlling and carrying on the business of the Education Department. They decided that the local education authority in relation to the playground, and in relation to the number to be accommodated, was not unreasonable, so that you have this school which was said to be capable of accommodating 1,414, then 927, is decided to be capable of only accommodating 500. You have all this talk about the teachers' salaries going on, and it is the local education authority who have been denounced as lawless and shabby, and the managers of the school have been held up as types of generosity. In July, 1907, the managers again asked the Board of Education to modify the requirements of the local education authority, and the Board of Education refused, and not until 17th July, 1907— that is nearly four years after the condemnation of the school—do you get a really firm and unmistakable intimation on the part of the authority that they will cease to maintain the school unless there is a definite and satisfactory undertaking that the managers will execute the alterations they were required to make. Then ultimately when the managers did show a disposition to meet the reasonable, proper and necessary requirements of the local education authority, what do you find the action of the authority is? Do you find then that they are trying to treat the school with undue harshness? They give notice to the managers that if they will carry out the plans for 866 they will not only maintain the school but pay the arrears of maintenance since last July. I think these are facts which should be borne in mind when we approach this controversy in its more minute form.

I come now to what undoubtedly is the question which has been the subject of controversy. The hon. Member for North-East Manchester, in a temperate, although earnest, speech made some observations in relation to the way in which the Statute has been evaded.

I beg the hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon. I quoted from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is a Member of the hon. and learned Gentleman's Government.

I beg pardon. It is not the habit of the Law Officers to circumvent Acts of Parliament. It is rather our duty, I think, to see that they are properly administered. The question of law here is a very simple one. It is indeed like most questions of law. When reduced to their natural analysis they are quite capable of being decided by ordinary common-sense. Here we have an obligation cast upon the local education authority. The local education authority is to control all the expenditure. That is the first obligation. Let the House bear in mind that it is absolutely unrestricted by the terms of the Statute. It has absolute control without qualification, and subject only to the duty of the local authority to maintain the school in a state of efficiency. That is the sole obligation with which we are concerned— the control of all expenditure. What does that mean? After all we are not concerned with what was the state of matters at the time the Act was adopted. The right hon. Gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition, then stated in very emphatic terms what he took these words to mean, and I am sure that he had not in his mind the particular point we are discussing today. But still he spoke with emphasis upon it. He said that the supporting of a school and the payment of the teachers' salaries were all matters within the determination of the local authority. When he had talked in this House, and the country of the school being under popular control, he had always meant what he said. I am very anxious indeed that the right hon. Gentleman should still mean what he said in relation to this. The right hon. Gentleman said it appeared to him that the appointment of the staff and the payment of the salaries of teachers were perhaps the most important subjects with which the education authority would have to deal.

Now what does control of the salaries of the teachers involve 1 Remember there is no greater obligation cast by this Statute upon the local authority than had already previously existed upon the managers of the schools. What the Statute did was to transfer to the local authority that general obligation of maintenance, which hitherto had rested upon the managers. It does not say that it is to be a larger measure of obligation, and that a heavier financial burden is to be laid on the local education authority than had been laid upon the denomination by whom the school was originally built. That is the first consideration, because when we hear this strong language about the local education authority not doing its duty it irresistibly occurs to one's mind, what about the managers before the Act of 1902? If it is grossly unjust that the teachers in a Voluntary school should receive less than the teachers in a provided school, why was it not equally unjust before the Act of 1902? If it is inequitable now, it was inequitable then. There was a differentiation then between the teachers in voluntary schools and the teachers in council schools, and that is a differentiation which was due to those who had the schools under their charge. Perhaps they could not pay their teachers more, but they said: "We do not pay our teachers as much as teachers are paid in rival schools." Was that harsh or unjust, or did it impair the efficiency of the school? All that the Act of 1902 did was to transfer from the managers to the local authority an obligation which the managers had borne. And the local authority took over these schools and continued to pay for the present exactly the salaries previously received. Then in the resolution so much condemned the words "for the present" were inserted. It was not then stated that the local authority would not at some future date raise the salaries. But they were quite entitled to act on any motive of economy or any other motive they pleased within their discretion and control, and to say: "We will go on paying the same salaries as our predecessors paid. We have to take over their obligation, and we will take it over, but we will take nothing more." Let us see what is meant by control? What does it involve? It involves the right on the part of the local authority to get teachers as cheaply as they can. [OPPOSITION cries of "Oh."] I see the hon. Member for the University of Glasgow in a somewhat agitated condition. Really in such a matter as this he ought to be a model of academic calm. I say that the local education authority have the right to get their teachers as cheaply as they can. It may be most ungenerous to do so; it may be harsh to do so, but it is not illegal to do so, and I should be very much surprised to hear that any hon. Member opposite, even the hon. Member for the University of Glasgow—

I admit that it may be legal to do so, but they have no right to endeavour to obtain teachers at the lowest possible price.

Is it illegal, I was asking. I am now discussing the question of the construction of the Statute. I am now discussing a question of Law, and may I ask hon. Members opposite to concentrate their mind, and take it away from the violent language which has been used in discussing this question, and to fit their mind on the question of law. The local authority are entitled, if they choose, I repeat, to get their teachers as cheaply as they can. I am not advising them to do it. It would be a very ungenerous thing if a local authority applied the strict market value to their teachers, but I am sorry to say that it would not be an illegal thing. They have an equal right if they choose to be extravagant. All that is involved in the control given by the Statute, and as long as they get their teachers to do the work well and thoroughly as these teachers are doing it, and the school is maintained in a state of efficiency in order to earn the Parliamentary grant, no one has a right to interfere.

The Board of Education has no right to interfere. My right hon. Friend has no right to interfere. I have no right to interfere so long as the school is maintained in efficiency—no matter how thriftily or even how ungenerously it may be carried on. No one has any right to interfere. If the school is in default, who are the persons to correct the managers? Not the Board of Education, but the electors. Yet I am told under these circumstances that I ought to have advised my right hon. Friend to apply for a mandamus against the educational authority. The Member for Oxford interrupts me.

A gesture is sometimes as eloquent as an expression. You cannot put that law into operation until you can prove that the local education authority is at fault. Because somebody may think that the local educational authority is not acting rightly, you cannot put them into the stocks. That cannot be done. I am very glad it cannot. Here are all these suggestions as to enforcing penalties, but nobody stops to think if there are grounds for penalties. Nobody has explained throughout this debate where the defaulting authority lies.

I am bound by the law which gives those authorities the strictest control over the expenses of the schools. It must be remembered that, along with this control, there is discretion. You cannot give control unless you give discretion, and, in fact, in the statute, one might almost substitute "discretion" for "control." Who is to exercise the discretion? Who, but the local authority; and the one point ignored by the party opposite is that the managers cannot without warrant assume to exercise discretion which rests with the local education authority. It is for the local authorities to say, and not for the managers, and no other persons can interfere except the education authority.

That discretion would be very differently construed if you say that the school had not been properly managed. It is said that the Commissioner had found that the condition of the school was impaired. There has been no finding that the efficiency of the school is impaired. There has been a finding in the opposite direction. There has been a finding that its efficiency has not been impaired. What has been found is that the efficiency was jeopardised. When the teachers' salaries are concerned who is entitled to exercise its own mind on a question like that? The local authority, not the managers at all. Their obligation is to put the school in a state of repair. The action of the managers was an action which could never be tolerated as long as the Act exists. They had no right to supersede the discretion of the local authority in a matter relating to expenses. If that right were departed from it would be a serious thing for local authorities. The managers might say, "We do not believe in your discretion, and we will exercise our own." The whole argument of hon. Members opposite would have that result if it were carried into effect. The only excuse they could make was, "If we do not do this our schools will close, and we shall not be able to get teachers." I believe hon. Members will say that is the true state of facts. It is believed on the other side of the House that if the managers had not been able to pay the teachers the full salaries which they demanded they would not be able to get teachers at all.

I was surprised to find, and hon. Members will be surprised to learn, that when the principal witness for the managers was put into the box and was asked if he had made any attempt to get teachers at the salaries sanctioned by the local authority he said that it did not occur to him. He had evidently made no attempt. It has been said that the local authority did not give sufficient guidance and that the managers were not told what salaries they were to pay. But the managers were never in doubt about the salaries which the local authority would pay. If they were, a letter from the Board was sent to them on 18th April, 1907, and they did not inform the Board of Education that they had received that intimation. They went on complaining that they got no guidance. They were told that salaries would be paid, and it was the duty of the managers to try and get teachers. It was an obligation upon them, cast upon them by the State. Did they do it? Not in the least. They ignored it. In the evidence you do not find it stated by them that they made any effort to get teacher j at the prescribed salaries. The evidence shows that they were rather lack in wisdom. Eight out of the 14 teachers sent in their resignations. That looks like a serious thing. But when we examine the step taken in May, 1907, we find that there was an interview between the teachers, the representative of the National Union of Teachers, and the secretary for the managers. The secretary of the managers said at the time that the resignations were sent it he knew they would probably be withdrawn. I cannot find his precise words, but he thought probably that the resignations would be withdrawn. The managers first of all encourage a demand on the part of the teachers for salaries on a higher scale. At the very time this was being done in Oxford-street what was happening in the other voluntary schools? The teachers were taking the salaries as laid down by the local authority. How can you state that if the local authority had insisted upon this scale of salaries that the schools could not have been carried on at all?

I ask anyone to point out to me in the Statute a single syllable laying upon the local education authority any greater financial burden or obligation than had previously existed. Nobody can point out any such obligation. Now let us see when they were asked what did they do to procure teachers. Sir David Brynmor Jones asked the secretary to the managers at the inquiry if when the teachers refused to consent to accept any but the higher scale did the witness try to get others, and the answer was "That it did not occur to him." He did not try to get others. He did not want others. He anted to carry to a successful issue this battle in order to get the scale of salaries in this school up to the scale that prevailed in the county council schools. That may be very laudable. I am not concerned with its merits or its demerits, but it shows that the efficiency of these schools was not endangered by reason of the salaries which were, in fact, being paid. These scale of salaries, if continued, would have produced the same measure of success which always prevailed in these schools. There are no less than eight voluntary schools in Swansea, and in all the others there is no difficulty in accepting the scale of salaries prescribed by the local education authority. There is therefore no foundation for the only excuse of the managers, that if they did not pay this higher scale they could not carry on the school at all. It falls to the ground. We heard a great deal here about the overruling of the Commissioner by the Board of Education or by myself. My reliance in this matter does not rest upon any description of what the witnesses said in this case, which I might be trying to thrust upon the House, but it rests upon the witnesses' own words. Take the evidence of the secretary to the managers. If I were to disbelieve him, or if I were to ask the House to reject his evidence, the House might well pause before it took my view in preference to his. I take his own words. Did you, Mr. Brynmor Jones asked, take any steps after the resignations to see whether among those who were not members of the Union of National Teachers you could get a sufficient supply of teachers to fill the places of those who sent in their resignations, and the witness answered "No." There you have the matter put beyond all doubt. There you get a perfectly clear answer. No effort whatever was made upon the part of these managers to perform their obligation to the local education authority and to try and get teachers. How is anybody entitled to come here and say the efficiency of the school was imperilled by the local authority. Of course, there is always the possibility of risk and danger, but looking at it as practical men does anybody doubt that this school, if it had obeyed the local education authority, would have gone on just as other schools in Swansea are going on. Therefore, when the case came before me I could not find any justification for saying there was the default, or that the local authority was under an obligation to pay a higher scale of payment to those teachers than the managers had previously given. I should be glad to hear some direct evidence in the words of the Act, instead of a repetition of the abuse we have heard, to show there is obligation. There is not a word in the Statute to justify the claim of the managers. I was asked to give the construction of the Statute to the education authority, but I am told by the hon. Member for the University of Glasgow that I have no duty in the matter. That I was a superfluity that ought to be swept away.

The hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well that is not what I said. What I said was that it was his duty to give advice as to the construction of the Act, but that it was no part of his duty to revise the decision of a quasi-judicial Commissioner.

That is exactly what I have said. The hon. Member would have me swept away. He thinks a Law officer has nothing to do with the decision arrived at by an Education inspector. He has nothing to say after the Education inspector has spoken. The Law officer has a great deal to do with it. I wish he had not, but the reports of Departmental inspectors are laid before the Law officers.

I made a clear distinction between the report of a Departmental inspector and the report of the Judicial Commissioner, such as this was, and the hon. Gentleman knows I did. It is not right for him to overlook the distinction.

The hon. Gentleman has said not only that I am wrong, but that he knows I am wrong. I know the circumstances under which the inquiry was held. Does the hon. Gentleman know the section under which the inquiry was held?

The hon. Gentleman has explained to the House what the duties of an inspector are. He described him as one having authority and great Departmental experience, and great knowledge of the duties imposed upon him by the Section of the Act. Mr. Hamilton went down under Section 73 of the Act of 1870 as an ordinary Departmental inspector. The fact that he was a K.C. had nothing to do with it. The hon. Member talks of him as if he was then a judge, as if there were something particularly important in having a silk gown instead of a black frock coat. Mr. Hamilton was an inspector holding an ordinary Departmental inquiry. Now we have Mr. Hamilton put before us as being not only a judge but also as a juror. Apparently the findings of a Departmental inspector on questions of fact are never to be questioned. That is a remarkable doctrine and a novel doctrine and a bad doctrine. No Department has ever endeavoured to delegate its authority in the way suggested here. Every Department is bound to act upon its own judgment. It cannot get rid of its responsibility by saying to some inspector, "Go down and make your report." The Department acts upon its judgment as the Law officer is bound to act upon his judgment. When the case came before me I exercised the best judgment I could upon the matter, and on the facts so far as they gave rise to considerations of law. It is often treated as a point of law whether the facts disclosed in evidence lead to the conclusion arrived at. I saw no evidence except that of opinion and of assertion, nothing in the nature of evidence of fact which would lead me to suppose that if the managers' scale were maintained these schools would not be carried on, and whatever may be said to the contrary I have come to that opinion, formed after careful consideration. Perhaps Mr. Hamilton was more than an inspector. I am sure that no one would be more surprised than Mr. Hamilton to find that he has been placed upon such a pedestal. Even now as a judge he will find that he is liable to be overruled, not, of course, by me, but by the courts. We are bound in this case by the evidence and by the Statute. I am not going into a minute examination of Mr. Hamilton's judgment. I have put before the House my grounds: they are grounds easily tested by any person who will bring an impartial mind to bear on the matter, and I think there is every justification for the course taken by the Education Department, and I feel sure the House will confirm that view.

I think everybody who has studied the course that has been pursued by the local authority in Swansea must be convinced that a shabbier course never was pursued in this country by a great local authority, and I think everybody who has heard the speech we have just listened to must come to the conclusion that the defence of the Swansea authority given by the Attorney-General is entirely worthy of the case which he has risen to support. Does anybody doubt it? What is the defence of the Attorney-General? I do not know. [An HON. MEMBER: "Good law."] I have a profound respect always for all law and all lawyers, but if that be good law the divorce between law and justice is greater than I ever imagined. What is the defence of the hon. and learned Gentleman for the conduct which, in an unhappy moment, ha has imposed on his colleague on the Treasury bench? His defence, in the first place, is that the Act of 1902 does not suggest that there may not be inequalities; that the Act of 1902 does leave to the local authority the determination of the salaries. Of course, it is perfectly true that the Act of 1902 did hand over the financial control of secular education to the local authorities with the object of bringing up the education in all districts to a level, and treating all the schools, in so far as they were engaged on secular education, upon an equal footing. The poor local authority, the unfortunate local authority, as I think they were just called, have a duty of being thrifty as regards the management of the funds entrusted to them by the ratepayers, and its thrift is to be shown in cutting down the teachers' salaries. ["Oh."] Yes, that is what he said. Thrift after all is a virtue or a vice, as the case may be, and is impartially exercised, free from religious or political prejudice. Thrift is not exhibited by cutting down the salary of the man with whom you differ and raising the salary of the man with whom you agree. It may be the thrift which commends itself to the mind of the Attorney-General, but the advice which he has given to the Board of Education is not the kind of thrift which will find a genuine admirer in any part of this House, whatever his political convictions may be. The legal authority has spoken, and the defence of this hon. and learned Gentleman when he was not opposing the Act of 1902, what did it come to? It came to the fact that after all there had been no default on the part of the local education authority, and that it had kept these schools efficient. I should like to know, if he is going to base an estimate of the moral conduct of the local authority, how does he justify them in giving different scales of salary?

I would ask why his friends justify their different scales? Why do voluntary managers give different scales?

I could hardly believe my ears when he used that argument in his speech, but now that he has repeated it, I suppose he seriously believes in it. Has he so much to learn on the subject of that Education Act on which he is advising the Department—has he so much to learn that he has not even discovered that the main object of the Act of 1902 was to enable voluntary schools to carry on the secular education on terms equal to the Board schools? Of course, that was the object, and, what is more, that it was the object has not been disputed by anybody. Every human being, whatever his religious opinion, whatever his views of denominational education may be, every human being that I know of agrees that in so far as the Act of 1902 raised the status of voluntary schools to the level of Board schools, it not only did great service but the greatest possible service to the cause of elementary education, and here we have the hon. and learned Gentleman coming down and encouraging local authorities to draw distinctions, praising them for their thrift, when they rob the unfortunate teacher in a religious school.

I must ask the right hon. Gentleman that some reasonable approach be made to fairness, and, if not fairness, at least accuracy. I expressly stated that, although they might have the legal right to be thrifty in the case of any particular schools, it was by no means a course I commended or desired, certainly not a course I recommended.

The poor local authority, the unfortunate local authority, has been attacked, as I understood it, because it did exactly what I have described, and the right hon. Gentleman called it thrift—thrift at the expense of its enemies. I did not hear a word of condemnation of that preposterous economy.

I did not even say this authority had been thrifty. What I said was, in dealing with the legal proposition, that an authority had a right, if it chose to differentiate on grounds of thrift.

I should really advise the hon. and learned Gentleman not to interrupt me any more, because he makes his case far worse by doing so. Just see if I am not right. The hon. and learned Gentleman corrects me and says what he did say was that the local authority had the right to differentiate on grounds of thrift. Has that sentence any meaning in the world in connection with this argument except that the local authority has the right to differentiate between its friends and enemies—to treat its enemies most shabbily and its friends most generously. Every human being knows there is not a man—I do not care what his prejudices are—in this House who does not know that the whole reason why the local authority of Swansea differentiated between the provided schools and the non-provided schools was on the ground of prejudice. I defy a single Welsh Member to get up and say that it was on grounds of education. They know that I am absolutely right when I say that if a certain salary is proper in the town of Swansea to teachers in schools of a particular type that salary ought to be given in every school of that type, and if you differentiate it must be either because you are giving too much in the case of one class of school or too little in the other. Nobody will contradict me when I say that, and how the Attorney-General, with all his practice in advocacy, can have brought himself to make the defence he has of the Swansea authority passes my understanding. If he will allow me to say so, it was not only a grave Parliamentary mistake, but it was even worse, regarded from a higher point of view.

The hon. and learned Gentleman, in contending for this defence of this unfortunate local authority, tries to make out that the local authority had done nothing to destroy the efficiency of the school. He has not been down to Swansea. He was not in the position of Mr. Hamilton. He did not hold an inquiry. He did not see the witnesses who came forward. He did not take note of the witnesses who were afraid to come forward. I have no practice in these legal matters, but surely it is common-sense to say that when a judicial officer is sent down by the Board of Education to make an inquiry in which the whole credit of this particular local authority was at stake, if they are given an opportunity to show that they have done nothing to impair the efficiency of the school, after opportunity to appear is fairly given them and they refuse to take advantage of it, one inference, and one inference only, is possible in such a case, and it is the inference which Mr. Hamilton drew. The hon. and learned Gentleman has traversed Mr. Hamilton's judgment. He does not think that an Elementary school is injured by the fact that not only its staff is underpaid, but there is a restless feeling among the whole of the members of the staff, and the whole school is disorganised by the consciousness of the injustice that they are suffering, when there is a feeling in the breast of every speaker that he must find some other outlet for his training capacity, if he desires to serve the cause of education—it does not occur to him that in that disorganisation of the school, as it did occur to Mr. Hamilton, the duty is thrown upon the local authority not merely of seeing that the school is maintained efficiently but maintaining it efficiently. And the people who maintained it efficiently, as Mr. Hamilton pointed out unanswerably, are not the people upon whom the duty is thrown by Act of Parliament, but other people, who generously came forward when those whose duty it was to carry out this local duty absolutely failed to do so. They have found a defender, absolutely their only defender, in the chief Law Officer of the Crown, who, at all events, in some of his functions, is supposed to exercise a judicial faculty.

I think it is a most deplorable case from an educational point of view. I think it is a most deplorable case from the point of view of local government, but its worst side is one in which the Minister for Education is most nearly concerned. He has been the author of Bills and the supporter of Bills by his predecessors in which many of the almost inevitable difficulties of this most vexed and difficult question of education are attempted to be solved in this House, through the machinery of throwing upon the Education Department judicial functions. Who is going to have the courage after this to ask the Education Dèpartment to exercise any judicial function? The right hon. Gentleman appears by the observations he made earlier in the evening to think that I have made some personal aspersions upon his honour. If any words of mine can be so interpreted I unreservedly withdraw them. I never intended, I do not intend now, to utter one single syllable to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman is not a man of the highest credit and honour, but in some manner which I cannot even conjecture he has got entangled in the subtleties of the learned Gentleman sitting beside him, and the result is most unhappy, and I fear the indelible result of this strange transaction is that a Department whose personnel is, I believe, second to none in the whole public service of the country, and a Minister whose private and personal and public character would adorn any front bench at any time have between them and among them, led or misled by the legal luminary to which in an unhappy moment they appealed, have done something to discredit permanently the judicial functions of the very office which those of us who still look forward with some lingering hope to a happy and peaceful solution of this great educational problem depend —a course which has given the greatest possible blow has dealt the deepest wound, inflicted the most serious injury upon the machinery which by its very delicacy is wonderfully effective, if only you keep it bright; the machinery, I mean, of a public office, not bound by mere technicalities, but attempting to do justice between minorities and majorities, attempting to determine in a true and generous spirit the intentions of this House. A blow has been struck at that machinery, which I fear it will take many a long year to repair.

I have endeavoured to approach this question as an entirely impartial person. I knew nothing about the facts, and have only gathered the view I am putting forward from reading the Report of the Commissioner and from hearing what has been stated in this House. A great deal of heat has been introduced into the matter, which is most unfortunate, because, after all, it is really nothing but a question of law, and to introduce into a question of that sort party heat does not lead to a proper conclusion. The question of law really is this: Have the local authority or have they not fulfilled the duties cast upon them by the Statute of maintaining this as an efficient school? In order to determine this question you have to determine necessarily a question of law. Speaker after speaker on the benches on the other side has told us that this is a question of fact. I agree that there is some justification for their having said so, because the letter of the Board of Education was rather unfortunate stating that it was a question of fact, but that very letter says that the crucial question is whether their proposed expenditure is adequate for the purpose of their statutory obligations. The point of that is this, that you must determine questions of law in order to determine the question of fact whether they have fulfilled their obligations. There are some facts which are facts pure and simple, and there are other facts, the determination of which involves the determination of questions of law.

Let us state the undisputed facts of this case. There is a board of managers whose school has been condemned. They have been required by the local authority to effect considerable alterations and additions to these buildings. They have not done so. The local authority is under no obligation to pay the salaries unless they do so. It is perfectly true that it will be unreasonable for the local authority to withdraw all maintenance from the school until reasonable time has been given to the managers to fulfil their obligations Reasonable time is being given, and therefore they could not have entirely withdrawn maintenance from the school. But in the meantime the Commissioner finds as a matter of fact that the school is being maintained in an efficient condition. The Report says:— tion you have to determine is whether there is an obligation upon the local, authority to pay salaries which would be adequate and proper to a school which was new and modern before it is known whether they are going to be under any obligation to pay salaries at all. I say it is perfectly obvious to anyone that there can be no obligation upon a local authority in these circumstances to fulfil their obligation, and a higher obligation than is necessary under the existing conditions, of the school, before the change in the condition of the school has been made and the obligation cast upon them. The question will be a very different one indeed if these managers fulfil the requirements of the local authority, erect the building, provide the playground required by the local authority and approved by the Board of Education, which they are-under an obligation to do, and which they have no right to any grant unless they fulfil. If they have done that the position will be very different, and I do not think it can possibly be said in these circumstances that there will be great difficulty in saying the local authority, if they refuse to pay the salaries which were commensurate to a school of that class, were not in default. But it is impossible to say they are in default until the correlative obligation cast upon the managers, of the school has been fulfilled.

With regard to the-last point raised by the hon. Gentleman, I am informed that the managers have actually spent £l 6,030, and the work required by the Education Department is nearly complete. So far I think I ought to have the hon. Member with me.

If the Attorney-General's view is correct never was a case of summa jus summa injuria more patent. How is this case as presented by the Government consistent with the Resolution of the House unanimously agreed to last night, that the rate of pay for all Government work should be the standard rate current in the district. Is the Swansea local authority paying the local rate current in the district to one portion of their teachers? The case has only to be stated to be answered upon that head. But, surprising as many developments of this case have been, one of the most surprising is the way the Government have suggested that it should be tested. They have suggested that the proper course of the managers would be to part with their old teachers, to break the traditions of the school, to interrupt the life of the school, and then to ask for new teachers at a lower rate of wages which the others would not take, who, if they did come, would be regarded as blacklegs by those whom they had displaced. That is a most extraordinary position for a Government to take up, and yet we have it on the suggestion both of the Minister of Education and the Attorney-General that that would be the true course of .arriving at the law on the matter. The Attorney-General has really increased the responsibility of the Board of Education, because he has said this is a matter for them to determine, and for no others. He dismisses the question of a mandamus. He says this is a question for the Board of Education to determine, and if it be a question for them to determine, their responsibility is all the heavier in deliberately allowing the local authority to pay one set of teachers, and one only, lower and inferior salaries.

But I am not altogether surprised. This particular point has a rather melancholy interest for me, because when the Education Bill of 1902 was going through the House I took a somewhat less optimistic view of what would be the policy of some education authorities, at any rate, than did the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford. He did not believe that the authorities would not do their duty fairly under this Act, and he "was right, no doubt, as regards a great number of local authorities—by far the greatest number. But there were others besides myself who even at that time had .great fear in the matter, and in particular there was Lord Hugh Cecil, who, in spite of his Fiscal errors, I deeply regret is not in the House, if he could be divided into the Dr. Jekyll of general Conservative policy and divorced from the Hyde of Fiscal aberration. What did he say when the Bill was being brought forward? On 21st October, 1902, he said: However, time has proved who was right and time has now shown that every prophecy of my noble Friend has come true and every one of his adjectives is deserved.

One of the impressions left upon the minds of some of those who listened to the hon. and learned Gentleman a few moments ago will be that the managers of the schools in question were on the one hand dilatory in carrying out the alterations required by the local education authority, and, on the other hand, that they were wanting in enterprise. So far from such being the case the managers of these schools, notwithstanding all the discouragement, and the steady, well-maintained, intolerable persecution to which they have been exposed from the local education authority, backed, as it has been, by the Board of Education and the right hon. Gentleman now in charge of the Department, have shown by their enterprise, by their charity, by their generosity, by their efficiency, and by their activity, that they are a set of managers who may well be held up to the admiration of any school managers throughout the length and breadth of the country. Instead of showing any lack of enterprise they have spent upwards of £20,000 upon their schools. They are people upon whom there are all sorts of other claims, and yet they have done that within a comparatively short period. Naturally enough they would probably take a few months to consider before they could undertake a scheme of these dimensions, but they have not only decided to undertake it, they have carried it out to a satisfactory conclusion, and as the result, of course, they have to face a very heavy debt, which I hope the charitable and the generous people of this country, especially those interested in educational efficiency, will partly relieve them of.

But there is another question which arises in connection with this case. It is not merely a question of providing efficient teachers or new and sufficient accommodation. There is great difficulty in a large centre of population such as Swansea in providing a recreation ground with sufficient space for the children. Here we find the sort of treatment meted out to voluntary schools. The action of the right hon. Gentleman towards these schools has been altogether either wrong and unwarranted on the one hand or his slackness in dealing with them is in itself most injurious to the health and good conduct of the children. One of the two must be the case, because here we find the right hon. Gentleman forcing this board of managers to provide playground accommodation at the rate of council schools in the district. They may have playgrounds providing merely eight or more square feet, or 12 or 17, as the case may be; it meets entirely with the approval of the right hon. Gentleman, and he does not interfere with them; but when it comes to the case of a Church of England school in a new centre it is not a question of eight square feet, but of twenty. This they have provided. If it is right for the right hon. Gentleman to claim that these schools should provide 20 square feet for each child in the recreation ground, then he should have brought to book the educational authority who are crowding the children together in great masses in the recreation ground, allowing only eight square feet for each. These are grounds of very serious objection to the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman has acted. The strong and vigorous charge brought against him this afternoon has been abundantly sustained. The treatment of these schools and of this Board of Management is indeed one of intolerable and well-sustained oppression. We ask those who put themselves up too often as self-constituted apostles of religious liberty how long are they going to maintain this insufferable condition of inequality towards men who prove the efficiency of their action, their self-sacrifice and their generosity, and who at any rate might have expected from the right hon. Gentleman some degree of consideration, if not of intelligence?

As the facts in connection with the Swansea school have been stated, I would like to bring the President of the Board of Education nearer home, and start with his own Constituency. The case to which I allude is the dealing of the Board of Education with the school in Dewsbury, which he knows well— the Wheelwright School. I hope that this case may be settled; but if so, it will be due to the fairness of those who have been brought into contact with the matter, and to the local education authority, and it will not be due to any action on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. The House will agree that in this instance, if in no other, the Board of Education has shown the quality of inactivity, which may be masterly, but has been most unfortunate in its results. The Wheelwright School was founded with money left by a Mr. Wheelwright, with the condition that teaching of the Church of England should be given in the school. In the year 1899 a grant of £335 a year was arranged with the local authority, and in return for that 40 free pupils were to be taken at that school under the local authority. In the year 1904 in that school the training of the pupil teachers of the local authority was to be undertaken. In that same year the question of the denominational clause in the scheme of the school was called in question. It was not until 1907 that any definite action was taken, and a serious step was made.

In that year the governors were asked what they intended to do, and whether they intended to delete this denominational clause. They met the local authority, and it became evident that all the local authority desired to have was an unconditional surrender, and the governors retired from the argument. On August 10th, 1908, the Board of Education wrote to the trustees saying that the governors were disposed to apply for an emending scheme and had passed a resolution in compliance with that. The trustees refused to move, and the governors absolutely repudiated the statement which the Board of Education had put into their mouths, and said they had no intention of amending the scheme and giving up the conditions under which they held the trust, which they were bound in conscience to fulfil. Then, surely, was the moment when the Board of Education might have done something to carry out the law as it stands, and more particularly that section in which it is stated that a Council in the application of money under Part 2 of this Act shall not require that any particular form of religious instruction or worship or any religious catechism or formulæ of any particular denomination shall or shall not be taught, used, or published in any school not provided by the Council. This was the moment when the President of the Board of Education might have been of assistance in seeing that the law was carried out and the conscientious adherence of these trustees to the terms of their trust made possible. But he took no step whatever, knowing the weakness of the position of the trustees. Knowing that if the Board of Education did nothing, it was more than likely that the trustees, under financial stress, would have to give way, he took no action, and, in due course, they did give way. I hope now that a settlement may be arrived at.

Let me call the attention of the House to the character of the school. In one of the preliminary letters of the Secretary to the Board of Education—and I think it is admitted that the facts are as stated; they are perfectly correct and can be justified—he says that at the same time the Governors would call attention to the fact that is well known throughout the West Riding, that never at any time has there been any religious difficulty in these schools: that they have been attended by children of parents of all religious denominations, including Roman Catholics and Jews; that no religious test has ever been applied in appointing a teacher; and the same absence of test applies in the case of the governing body; that in actual practice, according to the regulations for secondary schools of 1907, instruction in Church of England Catechism was provided only for the children of those parents who asked for it; and that, as regards Roman Catholics and Jews attending the school under clause 59 of the Wheelwright scheme, full opportunity would be afforded for religious instruction for the children according to what the parents decided to have. Those were the conditions under which they intended to carry on. Those are the conditions under which the school was carried on, and the objection of the local authority was a purely factious one; and I venture to put it before the House that the President of the Board of Education ought, in virtue of his office, to have stood by the governors, and instead of submitting them to the great financial stress to which they had had to succumb to have made it possible for them to carry out the terms of their trust and to do their duty under that trust. There is a great principle involved in this question. Here is a case in which the President of the Board of Education has refused to stand by men who carry out the Act of 1902, and he has allowed the law to be deliberately broken by the local education authority. He has also refused to help the trustees and the governors of these schools to carry out their duty. This school is in the right hon. Gentleman's Constituency, but I would not even suggest that his judgment would be biassed by that fact. It will, however, be said that the President of the Board of Education was afraid to take action in his own Constituency against those who form a very strong section of his supporters. I trust we shall find a satisfactory solution of this difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman has allowed this breach of the law and has done nothing to settle this difficulty.

What has been done in the case of the East Hardwicke School? There the children are still attending a condemned school, and nothing has been done to provide the new school which the Board of Education sanctioned some months ago. Although the plan of the new school has been sent to the local education authority, they have refused to take any notice of it. What is the Board of Education going to do in this matter? In another instance an offer was made of a school free of charge to the ratepayers. It was a non-provided school, but the Board of Education, instead of accepting this offer, have sanctioned the spending of £2,000 for the erection of a new Council school. Is that considering the interests of the rate-payers? Is that a plan which can be called fair as between one class of school and another?

Then there is the case of Glamorgan. The Glamorganshire County Council have in their estimates Parliamentary grants for provided schools, £100,000; and Parliamentary grants for non-provided schools, £20,000. In the case of the provided schools which receive £100,000, the cost of maintenance is £179,000, which leaves £79,000 to be provided by the rates. In the case of the non-provided schools the cost is estimated at £20,000, and not a single penny is allowed out of the rates. Will the President of the Board of Trade do nothing to see that justice is done between one class of school and another? It is to the right hon. Gentleman we have to look in all areas where a local authority is hostile and not prepared to do justice in the administration of education. If he fails us there is no one else who can secure for us fair play.

The case of Glamorganshire is very much on a parallel with the West Riding of Yorkshire. In the latter case there is a greater capital charge for the building of new schools than in any other district, or in any other county in England. The reason for this, undoubtedly, has been that instead of taking every advantage of the existing buildings, wherever there has been an excuse for building new schools; instead of taking advantage of old ones there the education authority has been prepared to strain the law in order to secure a new council school instead of putting the old non-provided school in a proper state. This policy in Glamorganshire and in the West Riding has thrown an unnecessarily high and heavy cost upon the ratepayers in the rural areas. In the rural district in particular education is becoming more and more unpopular and unduly expensive, and this is an indirect result of the policy of building so many new schools unnecessarily.

This is not the occasion upon which to urge the unfair incidence of the education rates in rural districts, but we can urge upon the President of the Board of Education to do his best to prevent the unnecessary building of new schools where old ones will do with a certain amount of repair. A heavy indictment has been made against the Government in the case of the Swansea school, and fears have been raised in the country that the Board of Education are not taking that unprejudiced view of the situation which the people have a right to expect. We have all during the past year formed hopes that something better is coming, and I believe that in most cases something better has come. The almost undisguised brutality of the administration of the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman is a thing of the past, and I believe the present President of the Board of Education will deal more fairly with all classes than has been the case before.

It is not the way to secure confidence that such matters as have been related this afternoon in this House can be allowed to go on. I appeal to him most earnestly. He is a man in whom we are placing our trust for justice and fair play. We earnestly believe he will not fail us.

Two or three smaller cases which have been raised by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down I shall refer to. There is the Wheelwright Grammar School, Dewsbury, in my own Constituency. I have watched the negotiations which have taken place with the trustees, the governors of the school, and the education authority with the greatest interest for some time past. I am very glad that considerable progress has been made towards arriving at a settlement. That progress has been made without any intervention on my part. I have no desire to interfere unduly when things happen to be going forward smoothly. Already the governors of the schools have arrived at some sort of an agreement. I am afraid I do not know the terms.

Is it not a fact that that agreement to deal with denominational schools—that is not complained of by anybody—was arrived at by pressure, by financial pressure, from the Treasury.

So far as I am concerned there has been no financial pressure. The West Riding County Council, I understand, declined to give the grant to the Grammar School, except on terms that they themselves laid down. So far as the law is concerned, they may have a perfect right, but I hope the friction between the West Riding County Council and the governors will soon come to an end. The secondary education of the district is impaired by this quarrel—purely a religious quarrel.

It may be necessary for me to intervene before the school closes. If it can be done without my intervention I shall only be too pleased. It is not from any desire on my part to shirk any responsibility in my Constituency, but, as the hon. Member and other Members will admit, it is as well if a Minister can keep out of a case in his own Constituency, where it is very difficult for him to adjudicate in hard cases in which are involved party questions which have been imparted in times past. If there appears any necessity for the Board of Education, unfortunately, to take action, I shall not' shirk my duty. With regard to the East Hardwicke School, I am afraid after the proceedings in the House of Lords last Session, I have no further information on the subject. I did not know the hon. Member was going to raise this or the other cases which he has raised to-night, or I would have been ready to deal with them.

With regard to Kirkburton, not only is a school to be built there, but we are going to give a grant towards the building. I believe it to be exactly one of the cases which was intended to profit out of the £100,000 grant placed at our disposal by Parliament. We are giving £850 towards Kirkburton.

Is it not a fact that the existing schools have been offered by the managers free of cost to the ratepayers who under the right hon. Gentleman's scheme will have to pay a considerable portion of the cost of the building?

I cannot be sure whether it has been offered or not. It does not alter the case, for Kirkburton is exactly one of the cases where a school ought to have been built entirely free from denominationalism. It is a kind of place where the children have no choice. I think it was a case where we should not only allow the school to be built, but give any assistance we could to the local authority in building the schools.

I desire to raise the question of the Victoria and Albert Museum. I think the House will remember that last year a scheme of reorganisation was set on foot under a Committee which was appointed by the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman. Now I should like to say in the first place that the inquiry was based upon an antiquated theory. I say quite frankly that the Reference to the Committee was based upon a fundamental fallacy, namely, that commercial manufactures are the primary object of this, the greatest art museum in the world. The Reference to this Committee practically directed these gentlemen, if they found it possible, to re-establish the basis on which the Victoria and Albert Museum was founded 45 years ago. The study primarily of those interested in commercial manufactures was the paramount, indeed the sole ideal in this direction. That was the opinion of the Government 45 years ago. I engage to say that there is no other branch of education—and this museum is as much a branch of education as the elementary schools—no other branch of education in which the ideals which were held 45 years ago would at this time be put forward as the very best to be aimed at. Those ideals were, it is quite true, the ideals of a Great Exhibition, but they were soon departed from by the authorities of the Science and Art Department when they discovered that those ideals were incompatible with the truest method of developing the artistic temperament amongst our artisans and craftsmen. This is a return to the discredited museum policy of 40 years ago. It is not the fault of the Committee, because the Reference to the Committee practically imposed it upon them; but I must say one word about the personnel of this Committee. Now it is to me incredible that any Committee should have been appointed to deal with South Kensington Museum which did not contain a recognised and admitted student of Italian art. The Italian collection at South Kensington Museum is better than any one in the whole of Italy, with the one exception of the Bargello at Florence. There is nothing in Milan, Rome, Bologna, or Naples—nothing in the whole of Italy such as our Italian collection. Yet in spite of that, a Committee ha3 been appointed by the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman which does not contain one accredited student of Italian art. This Committee has made revolutionary suggestions about the Oriental collections. Here, again, the Committee did not contain one single recognised student of Oriental art, although at South Kensington Museum we have got the finest collection of Oriental art that exists in any country in Europe, not only that, but that exists in any country of the East itself. I confess I have always a distrust of the Reports of Committees or Commissions which set out in their Report that, in order to qualify for the object about which they are requested to Report, they are sending members of their body to visit those very persons, places, or institutions with which they ought primâ facie to have been intimately acquainted for the last 20 years.

When I hear that they have sent people out to Vienna and Dresden to study museums there, I cannot help saying to myself that these gentlemen must be utterly unacquainted to museum work if it was necessary to go out there to qualify themselves for preparing this report. What have they done about India? They have completely misunderstood what we recommended by the Committee eight or ten years ago.

And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, further proceeding was postponed, without question put, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 4.

London County Council (General Powers) Bill

Motion made and question proposed:— "That this Bill be now read a second time."

moved as an Amendment: "To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words ' upon this day six months.' " He said: I do so on the special ground that it contains in Part HI., Clauses 13 to 23 inclusive, very drastic provisions dealing with the milk supply of this country; and I am taking this action on the present occasion on the same grounds on which I took special action last year on a similar Bill, namely, that a continuation of the present system of piecemeal legislation on the milk supply has become absolutely intolerable. I do not think anyone, even the promoters of the Bill themselves, can defend it. Nor was it defended last year by the President of the Local Government Board, and I hope he will take the same line now that he took then. Last year I took this action on behalf of the Chamber of Agriculture, not only against the London County Council Bill, but against every private Bill which tried to set up the power of dealing with the milk supply other than under what is known as the Model Clause. We were successful in every case this year. The London County Council, and they alone, are endeavouring to depart from the precedent that was then established, and they are trying to get powers for themselves and for their own purposes far beyond those which are enjoyed by any other body in the country. I shall not trouble the House with very great details about these eleven clauses.

It will be sufficient to mention that the London County Council, if these clauses are passed, will have powers of inspection and other powers practically over all the dairy districts of the country, I believe even into Cornwall. Under Clause 15 there is an entirely new liability set up, a very serious liability under heavy penalties; and under Clause 18 there is a provision that will cause the greatest possible inconvenience to the milk producer, in that he can be called upon by the London County Council to appear within 24 hours' notice in London to show cause why an order should not be made requiring him to comply with the Milk Act and so forth. In fact the whole scheme of these clauses would impose the maximum of inconvenience on the producer of milk, and they would be, in fact, fatal. My special grounds, however, for opposing this Bill are not detailed objections to these clauses, but are to be found in connection with all questions of the milk supply, and they should be dealt with by the general legislation affecting the whole country, and securing uniformity of treatment throughout all districts. I feel that we have even a stronger case for making this contention now than we had in March last year, because, although the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board made on that occasion a promise that a Bill would be drawn up and introduced dealing with milk supply, this year that Bill has actually been mentioned in the Gracious Speech from the Throne, so that I think we have every occasion for claiming that the present Bill should not be passed unless the clauses dealing with the milk supply are deleted. It is not as if the London County Council did not possess considerable powers already. In their Bill of 1907 they secured what, is known as the Model Milk Clauses, which this House has allowed other cities and towns to take; and I should say that these Model Milk Clauses, although I admit they are not perfect, but which were drawn up by the co-operation and united action of two Government Departments, the Local Government Board and the Board of Agriculture, in 1899, are up to the present the only possible basis of uniformity in the .treatment on the milk supply. I doubt very much if the House realises what extraordinary inconvenience occurs owing to the piecemeal legislation dealing with milk. A great many private Acts were passed before these Model Milk Clauses were drawn up containing very varying regulations dealing with the milk supply. The large dairy farmers who want to secure a certain market for their milk have to register themselves in a great number of towns, and they find themselves faced with this difficulty, that they have to conform with varying sets of regulations. The forcibleness of that objection cannot be better shown than by quoting the remark of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds, when he was defending a similar Bill last year. He said:— be absolutely stopped, and that every possible pressure should be exerted on His Majesty's Government to bring in a general Milk Bill and press it forward to the Statute Book.

We want it to be clearly understood that the agricultural community on whose behalf I am speaking are not opposed in the very least degree to proper precautions being taken, even to the most stringent regulations being set up to secure the interests of the public in the matter of the milk supply. It will be in the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman opposite that an influential deputation from the agricultural body of which I have the honour to be a member, urged on him that legislation should be made. It was to them he promised that the Government Bill should be introduced, and the discussions that have taken place by those agricultural bodies and the resolutions they have passed make it perfectly clear we are only anxious to co-operate with the Government and with the local authorities in London for the interests of the public health. We are not anxious to continue to produce milk under unwholesome conditions or to allow any individual to have slacker conditions existing in his dairies than the others. The right hon. Gentleman took this view last year and supported the Instruction which I then moved, and I should like to quote from the statement which has been issued by the London County Council in defence of their Bill, and in opposition to the action which I am now taking with respect to the milk clause. It is as follows: — of opposing the Bill on behalf of the agricultural districts is confined to the milk clauses in Part III. of the Bill. I may as well admit at once I am bringing up our objection in the form of a Motion against the second reading of the Bill rather than, by Instruction for tactical reasons alone. It seemed likely there is so much other opposition to the Bill that the opportunity to move an Instruction with regard to the milk might be squeezed out of debate.

Secondly I felt it gives me an opportunity to say a word of warning to the promoters of the London County Council Bill in this respect. They no doubt know, as I dare say most hon. Members present know, that the opposition to this Bill comes from almost every quarter of the House in respect of building clauses and in respect of clauses which apparently have the object of setting up the London County Council as its own judge in its own disputes, and in a variety of other matters. If we agricultural Members throw the whole force, as we shall do if necessary, and all our weight in the House against the second reading of this Bill I do not think the Bill has the very slightest chance of passing the second reading. I say this deliberately, and pointedly because I wish to give the promoters of the Bill an opportunity which may save future discussion on this important matter of the milk clauses, if they will agree to delete Part III. of the Bill, in other words, to accept the Instruction which I have on the Paper for that purpose, they will have done away with the whole motives we agricultural Members have in opposing the Bill.

I hope in the interests of peace, and in their own interests, as presumably they are anxious to get the rest of their Bill, they will take this course. I want to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman-opposite to do as he did last year when he supported the Instruction, and said: to be pressed forward this year. I should be the last to think that such a conclusion was justifiable or possible. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman intends to push forward the Bill. A logical action as well as an action making for peace will be to put pressure upon the London County Council to withdraw their clauses, and if necessary to support the Instruction which I have upon the Paper to strike those clauses out. With these motives, and with the desire to have uniform treatment in the interests of the producer, and also, I maintain, of the consumer, I beg leave to move that this Bill he read a second time this day six months.

I desire to second the Amendment from an entirely different point of view. I wish to call the attention of the House to a matter which seems to me a gross abuse of the powers which this House has conferred upon the London County Council. I refer to the way in which some of the improvements in London for which powers were given some years back are being carried out. I refer particularly to a very considerable public improvement which ought to have been carried out some years ago, and which, for some reason, those representing the Council, will be able to give, seems to have stopped still. I refer to the improvement to be caused by the widening of Southampton Row.

I should like briefly to give the history of this somewhat remarkable case. In 1902 notices were served upon the various interests in that area; in 1903 the council obtained from this House powers compulsorily to purchase the necessary property within three years; those powers were extended to seven years, within which they were to complete the improvement. The council obtained the, I think, unusual provision that upon improvements to the different properties no compensation should be paid, no matter how great the improvements might be. There was no question then as to the urgency of the matter; there can be, if possible, still less to-day; and in view of the urgency the council at once proceeded in the ordinary course to acquire the interests in the area. They bought for £46,000 the freehold rights, and they also purchased some of the larger leasehold interests. Then the matter seemed to drag. The confusion in this particular street—which is like the neck of a bottle—and the congestion of traffic became more and more marked, in consequence of the opening of Kingsway and the completion of other important street widenings in the district. For some reason best known to the council negotiations apparently stopped. I hardly like to suggest that the cause of the stoppage was the approaching triennial election, but the fact remains that that election shortly afterwards took place, with results which I hope were satisfactory to hon. Gentlemen opposite. The next move was in 1906, when application was made to Parliament for a further extension of the compulsory powers for another three years. In spite of the fact that doubts were freely expressed as to whether the county council intended to go on with this very necessary improvement, the powers were extended until 1909. Meantime no progress was made, notwithstanding increasing demands for the improvement. It turns out that neither before 1906 nor since has the council had any serious intention of dealing with the work. If corroboration of that statement were needed, it would be found in a letter written by the council on 15th July, 1907, in which it is stated:—

There can be no doubt in anybody's mind that if the council had really meant business the necessary purchases could have been carried out, and they could be carried out to-day without any loss of time. If there should be any difficulty about the acquisition of the various interests it would be only necessary to appeal to the Arbitration Court. One would imagine that some very large sum of money was at stake; but quite the largest part of the money has already been sunk in the improvement, and spent in acquiring the interests of those who could best afford delay. In one case £46,000 was paid for the freehold interests, and I believe I am within the mark when I say that other interests bringing the amount up to £80,000 have already been acquired, while only about £35,000 would be necessary to purchase the remaining interests. What are those interests? There are three leasehold interests which can in any sense be termed long interests— 13¼ years, 27 years, and 33¾ years, as stated by the Committee itself. The large majority of the remainder are short leases, having five or six years to run, held by small tradesmen, who are suffering from the last six years' inconvenience to their trade by the non-completion of the improvement, and every day losing the value of their security and their interests solely to enable the London County Council to procrastinate in order that they may by the effluxion of time be in a position to secure these small men's interests for a mere song, which certainly was never contemplated by this House when the powers were originally granted. What further result is there of the delay? I have mentioned the great congestion of traffic. There is also the great danger, evidenced by the number of accidents and deaths at this point during the last 18 months. Tradesmen are not allowed to have vans stopping to take up or deliver goods at their doors, and there is great loss and inconvenience to everybody in the district. There is also great deterioration of neighbouring property, and, above all, what I hope the House will agree with me in thinking is a grave breach of the pledge given by the county council to Parliament when they came in 1903 and 1906 for powers to carry out this improvement.

I should like to amplify the point with regard to the deterioration of adjoining property. The county council have acquired certain interests in this area, and they are letting them to any tenants they can get on short tenancies — weekly, monthly, or any short time they can arrange.

It does not require any words from me to show what the result must be on the neighbouring premises. Large buildings have been built on one side—the side allowed to remain—for the purpose of providing for the advantages to be derived from the improvement when it comes. All these people have been badly treated by the London County Council, and I think it is a grievance which will be marked by this House requiring that the pledges which they have imposed will be carried out in future. What is the present position? Having refused to carry out the work under the powers which they got from this House, they come here again and ask for a further extension for another three years, up to 1912, for compulsorily purchasing those interests, which, I believe, they have no intention of acquiring. Surely that is trifling with the privileges of the House. The work cannot be completed by 1910, and it must necessarily follow that if they really mean business they must come before us next year for an extension of time to complete the improvement. That would mean more expense to the poor ratepayers and no satisfaction to-those who require to see the improvement, carried out without delay. A large number of these tradesmen's leases are small leases, but they are leases which this extension of power will not enable the-county council to acquire according to their wishes and intentions. They only ask power for an additional three years, and they do not intend to exercise it. I have shown that from letters written by the London County Council. In other words, they do not mean to carry out what they are asking power to do, but they ask this power in order that they may be able to save a few pounds by the delay. They have already about £80,000 sunk in this improvement, which is producing a very inadequate return. It is not business. It is not sound finance. London ratepayers cannot get the benefit of the expenditure of their rates, and if the money lost in the shape of interest on the amount sunk is compared with the small amount requires to carry out the improvement, it would be seen that the present intention of the London County Council is one which ought not to commend itself to this House, or to the vast majority of the ratepayers of the metropolis. I ask that the London County Council before they get a renewal of this power of compulsory purchase should show once and for all that when they stipulate that certain conditions shall be carried out they shall be carried out. Hon. Members should show by their vote that this House will not be trifled with and that the interests of those who are hit in this way may be safely trusted in their hands. I ask the House, with every confidence, to support the Amendment that the Bill be read this day six months. If they do that, I am sure they will never regret it.

Amendment proposed: "To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the question to add the words ' upon this day six months.'"—[ Mr. Courthope. ]

Question proposed: "That the word 'now' stand part of the question."

I cannot support the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Rye because I do not think it is justified, but I do heartily support his appeal to the President of the Local Government Board to at once deal with the general question as regards the securing of the purity of the supply of milk. That seems to be a supreme question of national health which ought to override the interests of every class in the community. I think that any delay on the part of the Government to deal with this general question absolutely justifies the central authorities of great cities like London, Manchester, Liverpool, or any other body in the country, to take any steps they can to secure the purity of the supply of milk. I have always supported that principle. At the same time, the Chamber of Agriculture adopted a motion which I proposed, declaring that the Government of the day should undertake to deal with this question on general lines. It has always seemed to me that that was the fairest way, not only to agriculturists, but also to the whole community. I do earnestly appeal to my right hon. Friend that there should be no further delay. The facts are familiar to all of us. The interim report recently issued by the Tuberculosis Commission is of such a nature as to show that no class or interest ought to object to the protection of the public in connection with this question. If there is any section of the Government—the Treasury or the Board of Agriculture—interfering with the provision of that protection by means of general legislation, all I can say is that I shall take every step to protest against such action, and I shall take every step I can on every possible occasion to support any local authority that tries to protect its inhabitants.

A good deal of the opposition to the London County Council General Powers Bill seems to be on points which ought to be considered rather by Committee than by the House as a whole. I think the only point which this House may consider to be of sufficient importance for a second reading debate is that raised by the hon. Member for Rye. I think that on smaller points like those raised by the hon. Member for Holborn it is not reasonable to expect this House to hang up legislation of great importance such as is proposed by this Bill. I would remind the House that the measure deals with railway sidings, unwholesome milk, accommodation for the storage of food at tenement houses, the amendment of London Buildings Acts, the extension of time for certain works, powers to two different Metropolitan Borough Councils, and other important miscellaneous conditions. The small point which the hon. Member for Holborn brought forward relates to one sub-section of one clause in a Bill which contains 71 cla0075ses. I think it is rather absurd to bring it forward on the second reading at all. The hon. Member endeavoured to make out that the London County Council had broken its pledges. I do not think there were ever any pledges to carry out that improvement within a certain time. If the hon. Member has his way, and prevents this Bill obtaining a second reading, the only result will be that the improvement will not be carried out at all. I can give the House very good reasons for saying so. A great deal of the property is held on short leases. Almost all those leases expire before 1914. A good many expire in the next few months. The London County Council feel that they are not justified in paying heavy trade compensation, which would be necessary if they gave notice of their intention to acquire these leases compulsorily when they can get the property by the mere effluxion of time. They have acquired the freeholds, and are merely waiting until these leases fall in. I think it is perfectly reasonable, and the only right course in view of the very heavy expenditure which would be necessary if the occupiers were to be compulsorily dispossessed. The other point which is likely to be raised is a point which deals with the Building Act. But I would urge the House to leave it to the Committee. The Building Act imposes many restrictions on many methods of building. It is impossible, for instance, to put up skeleton steel structures except the walls are of the same thickness as they had to be when it was a question of bricks, and that restriction means a very large amount of expenditure. The Bill provides for the relaxation of the existing law, and those Members who have put down Instructions with reference to surveyors and the County Council have really got hold of the wrong end of the stick, and would take away that very power of granting concessions from the letter of the proposed rules, which I believe they desire in the interests of builders. I come to the more important question of milk. I quite agree with the hon. Member for Rye that it is of the greatest importance that we should attain uniformity in milk legislation. I would remind the House that the London County Council only brought forward their legislation pending a national settlement. The words of the resolution of the county council are:— authorities to put in force the Order relating to dairies. There are 327 sanitary authorities which have made no regulations whatever, and even where they are made they are too often not put in force. The Rural District Councils are the authorities for carrying it out. They are very often composed of farmers, who very naturally do not take much trouble to see that the regulations are enforced. If these regulations were enforced by larger authorities, such as county councils in the rural districts, I think the local prejudices would very largely be overcome. Undoubtedly the question of milk supply is rapidly growing worse. It is very unusual now for women to milk the cows, but when they did they washed their hands and the udders before they proceeded to milk. I am afraid that kind of cleanliness is now rather the exception than the rule. I wish to quote words from the Reports of the Local Government Board.

I want to read a few extracts from Reports presented to the Local Government Board by its Medical Inspectors with reference to the conditions found to exist at certain cowsheds, dairies, and milkshops. Dr. R. W. Johnstone's report on the rural district of Dorchester, December, 1907, says:— could be treated as adulterated. In this country milk has often to travel at a temperature of over 70 deg., and very often when it reaches London it is in a condition dangerous to health. I am not treating now of the milk sold by the large shops, where it is properly treated, and where every possible precaution is taken. Unfortunately a large section of the community have to get their milk from small shops of general dealers. In these shops there are no facilities and few precautions are taken. According to the evidence of Dr. Newman, quoted in the Report of the Physical Deterioration Committee, 73 per cent. of the milk vendors in Finsbury failed to keep their milk covered, with the result that it was open to contamination by dust and flies. Dust contamination is very dangerous. Zymotic diseases and tubercular infection are promoted in this way. Examination was made in Liverpool of the danger of contamination from expectoration, and the Medical Officer collected expectoration from the streets, and he found that in 5 per cent, of the cases virulent tuberculous infection was present. In addition to this, there is the danger of infection by flies. At the present time there is no power whatever to prevent the sale of this infected milk. The General Powers Act of 1907, to which reference has already been made, empowers the London County Council to exclude milk which has been drawn from cows suffering from tuberculosis of the udder; but if tuberculous infection is-found in milk from any other cause than tuberculosis of the udder there is no power in the General Powers Act, 1907, to keep this milk out of the market. The only power of condemning milk is under the Public Health Act of 1891, which enables the County Council to seize any article intended for the food of man if it is diseased, unsound, unwholesome, or unfit. But in practice it has been found impossible to make much use of that power, because the police courts have insisted not on samples of milk being brought, but the whole churn, and in consequence only two prosecutions have proved successful under this clause in the case of milk. Under this Bill the London County Council have taken every precaution to avoid undue interference with the farmers. They have adopted the machinery of the tuberculosis milk clauses of the Act of 1897, and they have extended them to what they now consider is the far more urgent question of dirty milk.

The powers of the London County Council allow them, under this Bill, to take samples of the milk at the railway station before it is distributed to the customers, and, unless they are taken at the railway stations, it is quite impossible to detect from which farm they come, and it is thought that the County Council is the right authority, because it would not be reasonable to ask the Borough Council of Paddington to take samples at Padding-ton station of milk which is sent throughout London. When they find milk is dirty they are to have powers to proceed for penalties, after satisfying themselves of the farm from which the milk comes. They can also prohibit the produce of such farms coming to London while the nuisance continues. They are only permitted to visit farms outside the county by permission of the Justices having jurisdiction in the district. I do not think there is any danger of these clauses being onerous in their action, because I am informed by those who have inquired into this matter that it is quite easy to distinguish between the contamination of milk which comes from the dairy and that which comes from the railway companies.

The powers of the Borough Councils enable them to take samples of milk exposed for sale and to deal with the sellers, and it is hoped under these provisions that there will be no undue interference with those who do take precautions to keep their milk clean and to raise the standard of care which is taken of milk. The Borough Councils under this Act, as in 1897, will have no power to visit farms outside their district. The London County Council does not for one moment ask for these powers if it can be assured that the Government is not only going to bring in a general Bill, but intends to give the time this Session to pass it. A general system is infinitely preferable, but if we cannot get this general system in the interests of the health of London it is our duty to ask this House to give us power to remedy the failure of the Local authorities to set their house in order. If we can by this Bill remedy the evil, and to some extent prevent dirt, it is obvious we shall be able to prevent the infection, which it is impossible to measure, but which too often accompanies dirt. The discoveries of the last few years have made this an urgent matter, as it is known that in many cases disease is caused by micro-organisms, each one of which has millions of descendants in twenty-four hours. It is obviously our duty to guard against infection of milk, which is so important an article of diet, and which is so favourable a breeding ground for every form of infection.

I propose to give a hearty support to the greater part of this Bill, and I appreciate both here and elsewhere the efforts of the London County Council to make the alterations which are contained in this Bill. I appreciate also their zeal in the most important matter of milk supply, but I do wish to join in the remarks which have been made from all parts of the House as to how far it would be better to have a joint Act on this subject than to have this piecemeal legislation, which is open to every kind of objection. In the first place, it is never thorough, and in the next place it inevitably adds to the duties of the local authorities and to the difficulties of the authorities in London. We are all agreed as to the need to improve the milk supply, but. I should like to point out that there is nothing in the milk clause of this Bill making it really easier to remedy the defects of bad dairies in many parts of the country. These clauses do not go far enough, and when the hon. Gentleman says that the people in the locality have not done their duty the remedy is to have an Act of Parliament which will make them do their duty, and not merely to have an Act which will bring the officials of one authority into the area of another, and which will raise all sorts of difficulties of local government, which do not lend themselves to picturesque treatment. I am quite sure that hon. Members will agree that you will never get the evil remedied if there is any sense of injustice left in localities. If a man has to come a hundred or three hundred miles to London to have his case tried and if he is not to have an appeal to a medical officer of health in the county in which he lives great difficulties would be raised. Until it is considered generally, you will never have the problem fully dealt with. It is with great regret that I have to vote against the second reading of a Bill like this; but I join with all the other speakers in hoping that the President of the Local Government Board may be able to give an assurance, not only as to a general Bill being introduced, but as to its being passed. It depends very largely on the hon. Gentleman who spoke last and his friends as to how fast legislation goes through this Session, and if we can get some pledge of that sort I hope hon. Gen- tlemen will try to facilitate the passing of a general Act, rather than try to deal with the problem in this piecemeal and inadequate manner.

The hon. Member who has taken the drastic course of moving the rejection of the Bill has appealed to the Government to make a statement of their intentions in carrying out the pledges given in the King's Speech with regard to the General Milk Bill. There is no dispute in any quarter of the House as to the necessity for general action in dealing with the milk supply. The milk supply not only of London but of many other towns, and even of rural districts, is far from satisfactory. It is insufficient in amount, it is often defective in quality; it is badly stored, and it is often worse conveyed, and sold often in the wrong way by the wrong people in not the cleanest of shops, or methods; and the question to-night is not as to whether action should be taken, but whether action should be taken on the initiative of one centre or by the Government for the country as a whole. Upon that the Government has made up its mind, and has said that the unsatisfactory condition of the milk supply is such that it can no longer be dealt with in this piecemeal fashion at the instance of local authorities, many of whom are rich enough to protect themselves, but in the very protection of themselves unload on poorer communities the very article of a bad quality that the smaller authority is unable to defend itself against.

The hon. Member said the county council was prevented from proceeding with its Bill last year because the Government, though it had promised a Bill, did not produce it last Session. That is not my fault. Another form of liquid occupied so much Parliamentary time that the poor milk consumer and the farmer and the dairyman were excluded from the purview of both Houses of Parliament. But I hope for better luck with the less noxious and dangerous fluid this year than beer and other alcoholic liquors received last year. If there ever was a Session of Parliament in which legislation was crowded and in which men were overworked it was last year, and it was impossible for the Government to get this aspect of the food question satisfactorily dealt with. But we kept our pledge on another aspect of the food question by passing a very powerful and useful Bill which we are now bringing to the aid of the sanitary authorities for the stoppage of the sale of unsound meat. The hon. Member asked: "Where is this Bill?" My answer is: "There." It consists of 20 pages, and includes provisions embodying the two or three local and sectional matters dealt with in the clauses of the London County Council Bill plus a number of other provisions which will enable the Central Department, in conjunction with all the other health authorities, to deal effectively and uniformly with this very serious problem.

The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds proceeded to condemn his own milk clauses. He admitted that some of these clauses were expensive and clumsy, and went on to say that the question of temperature was a subject which ought to be dealt with. He asked what ought to be done with the Dorchester cowsheds which he described. If the milk clauses of the London County Council Bill were passed the Dorchester cowshed would still be in an unsatisfactory condition, because the Dorchester local authority, which ought to be compelled to keep its own cowsheds in a proper condition, would get no help in doing so from the clauses of the Bill. He went on to speak about the advisability of fœtal contamination of milk being stopped, and a number of other things being done. We agree, but this local and sectional method of dealing with these matters is the wrong way to attempt to deal with them. It does not touch them in ninety-nine places out of one hundred throughout the country, and therefore the Government cannot support it.

The hon. Member raised another point which is germane to the clause. He said what the London County Council want is the power, by means of this clause, to prohibit diseased milk from coming to London. It is a very worthy object, but we have no right to give protection to London and to enable West Ham and Croydon and Swindon and Bristol not to have the same power of protecting themselves against the bad milk from the country districts which has been sent to London and inspected in London, but returned, probably to be sold elsewhere. We want some means by which, when bad milk comes to London, and is either not destroyed on the spot, which in nine cases out of ten it ought to be, there should be prompt and immediate telegraphic communication from the authority that detected the bad milk to the district where the milk was returned, and without something of that kind, which you can only do in a general Bill, it is impossible to deal effectively with the milk supply.

The other point which I wish to raise is the Bill itself. This Bill has been partly represented as an effective method of solving the milk problem of London. I wish it was, but it is not. This Bill enables the county council and the borough councils under certain circumstances to inspect milk at railway stations and other places, and it gives them certain powers that we in our Bill will be compelled to give them, but it deprives them of necessary powers which we think they ought to be equipped with. I appeal to the House of Commons not to accept the milk clauses of the county council. I have promised to do my best to get my Bill through the House of Commons this year. It is necessary for such a Bill to be passed, because we have now reached a stage when something must be done. The Royal Commission on Tuberculosis has made a number of recommendations which we cannot ignore. It has declared that human and bovine tuberculosis cannot be distinguished from each other, that no doubt child tuberculosis is the direct result of the bacillus of bovine tuberculosis, and that cows' milk which contains bovine tubercle is clearly the cause of fatal tuberculosis in man. It then deals with five or six other points which compel us to action in the direction I have indicated.

And there is another reason stronger than all. We find that model milk clauses passed at the instance of local authorities in a sectional way for their own protection are not model milk clauses at all. We find milk orders and dairy orders that do not harmonise, jurisdictions that conflict, standards that do not tally with each other, varying penalties, conflicting methods of supervision, with in some cases a maximum of irritation to the farmer and a minimum of good to the milk consumer. Everywhere we find that dairies, cowsheds, vessels, forms of conveyance, storage, temperature, and the register of dairies, etc., are all in an unsatisfactory condition, and in consequence of that the Government will introduce this Bill.

May I give one crowning disadvantage of the sectional way of dealing with this question? Take for instance the question of compensation—a very serious matter. My general view is that agriculturists have made too much of the question of cash compensation in some respects, and if you carry compensation too far in some respects it defeats the very object which it sets out to achieve, but into that I need not go at this moment. I only mention this point to illustrate the danger of local and sectional action. London took steps to deal with this three or four years ago. Since then they have paid £479 under the Act of 1904 for compensation for 43 cows that suffered from tuberculosis of the udder. If that standard, adopted by a rich city, with few cows and a diminishing number of cows, were applied to the whol1? country £500,000 would be required. I mention that as an instance of where a rich city with a very small number of cows within its jurisdiction can afford to pay to diminish the evil in a very extravagant way in which no other town or city could possibly hope to do, and I say that that is a reason why we should have no more sectional legislation.

I appeal to the House, and above all to the Members of the county council, not to press these milk clauses. If they do I am convinced if they went upstairs to the Police and Sanitary Committee, with its general knowledge of this question before it, it would not pass these clauses; and if there was any attempt to get these clauses through, I believe that this Bill, generally useful and required in very many other respects in its 71 clauses would be considerably jeopardised as a whole; and, above all, if we give this pledge, as we now do, that this general Milk Bill will supersede for a wider area and with a better method that which we find the milk clauses of local bodies do in an imperfect way, I think that the Members of the county council ought to rest content with that pledge, and respond to the invitation of the hon. Member for Eye to give a guarantee that these clauses will be dropped. If not, the consequence of refusing to adopt such sensible action will rest upon them and not upon the Government. I do not intend to deal with the other points that have been raised. I think that the hon. Member for Holborn need not have raised, at such length, the very local and small point that he dwelt on for such a considerable time, though I do admit that, if the London County Council wants to improve the traffic of London, instead of talking about the traffic board, they had better get on with street improvements. That is not a sufficient reason for rejecting their Bill. I also think that the hon. Baronet who represents the City of London ought not to wreck the Bill.

I know that, but I am anticipating that the hon. Baronet will call attention to the clause with reference to the district surveyor, and I think that is a matter which ought to be left to the Committee. If the hon. Baronet carries his point there will be no appeal to anybody at all, and for that reason I hope he will not press his point. With regard to supervising ferro-concrete buildings, I do not think that is a question which ought to be dealt with upon insufficient information without calling before the Committee the evidence of experts. Under all the circumstances, I think the Government are wise in the decision they have arrived at that once and for ever local and sectional milk legislation should be abandoned, and we should codify all our orders and regulations in order that there may be greater harmony between the central authority and the local authority. We should not allow local authorities to have orders and not carry them out, or powers and not exercise them, and it is because our Bill will put a stop to this confusion and lack of uniformity that I promise a Milk Bill for this Session, and if it passes into law there will be no need for the clauses proposed by the London County Council. They will not get relief any sooner than will be given them by the Government Bill, and by helping us they will give much-needed assistance to all those authorities that have a right to ask for a general Milk Bill which will solve the difficulty in a rational way.

I am pleased to hear the announcement of the right hon. Gentleman that the Government has consented to the introduction of a Bill dealing with the whole question of the milk supply. I think we may take some credit to ourselves on the London County Council that through our action in pressing forward this matter and arousing public opinion we have had a good deal to do with bringing about the decision at which the right hon. Gentleman has arrived. I think I may in confidence appeal to my hon. Friend to withdraw the milk clauses in the present Bill, relying on the statement made by the President of the Local Government Board, and feeling confident that the matter will be dealt with this Session. The London County Council have proclaimed a desire that this matter should be dealt with by a general Bill, and we only proceeded with it because last year the Government did not deal with the question. I can only say that, if by any unfortunate accident the Government are not able to bring their Bill to fruition this year, we should be compelled again to introduce our clauses and press them forward into an Act of Parliament. We have done all we can to meet the agricultural interest—I think it is admitted that we did all we could in our previous Bills to meet their requirements. We loved the agriculturist, of course, and we want to do what we can to cherish him. We want as much of the milk he can produce sent to London, and we want it in the best possible condition. We are assured that that milk will be properly looked after by the council itself. We have no desire to interfere with the jurisdiction of other councils within their own area, and we do not suggest that the 30 inspectors of the London County Council and the 29 boroughs should meet together on the different farms within their area and inspect the milk one after another. I know, however, that the right hon. Gentleman said that he was going to give us power among, of course, other authorities, which would be even stronger and more clearly defined than the powers we were taking for ourselves in the Bill. I hope when he reveals to us the contents of that Bill, which he has promised to us at the Table, to find out that the promises he holds out to us have been realised. I will not enter into the very vexed controversial question about a traffic board for London. Some of us of the county council hold entirely different views to the right hon. Gentleman, but I will only ask him to confer upon this matter with a very eminent colleague of his in the Cabinet, who signed the Report of the Commission setting up traffic boards for London, and who has thoroughly studied the matter. I hope after the conference that he has with that distinguished colleague he will come round to what I consider a better view of the London traffic question. As regards the other details of the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman said they are all matters for Committee. They are technical matters. I trust that my Friend below will withdraw these clauses and that there will be no further opposition.

I appeal to the House to come to a decision on this matter without any further debate.

We shall gladly accept the Instruction of the hon. Member for the Eye Division.

Under these circumstances I shall ask leave to withdraw my Motion of objection to the Bill.

I appeal to the Government not to accept the Amendment. It seems to me that this is a very serious matter for London. At the present time we have a private Bill before the House containing a very simple proposition. That is that this particular milk when it is brought into London shall be inspected, and that if the authorities decide that that milk may be excluded from London, that is a matter purely of local concern, and not one that applies to the general legislation of the country. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board suggests that it is a small proposal, and that this proposal, which has been discussed for many years, should be dropped out of this Bill in order that the Government may introduce a Bill dealing with a very much larger question. The question is how thousands and tens of thousands of dairies are to be kept clean. The right hon. Gentleman may promise to bring in a Bill, but whatever be its form, I think that it will meet with far greater opposition than the present very reasonable proposal. If the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman entails the inspection of farms all over the country, if it entails some system whereby every milk-producing place in the country is to be inspected, if it entails hardship and expense upon the farmers of the country, it will bring about a very large amount of opposition in this House and also in another place. Knowing what we do of the progress of legislation in Parliament at the present moment it is by no means certain that the right hon. Gentleman would be able to pass his Bill. I do not know whether my hon. Friends in charge of this Bill are going to a Division, but, if they do, they will have behind them the whole support of London. The right hon. Gentleman is not speaking on behalf of London in this matter. Is this House going to prevent London from taking the only precautions she can take against the evils which have been so accurately described by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds? If we are not to have this legislation the responsibility must rest on the shoulders of those in the County Council who have put forward this proposition and withdraw it. We cannot have any part and parcel in that course. Although we have heard the intentions of the President of the Local Government Board, yet we have not seen his Bill, and we do not know what is in it, and we cannot believe that his Bill will be anything like so small and uncontroversial as this Bill ought to be, and I think we are justified in asking the House to take the usual course of letting the Bill go to a Committee, before whom proper evidence would be placed, rather than allow the matter to be decided on the individual advice of a Member of the Government. I do not believe that the Government itself would take any Governmental action on this matter at all. It is not usual for the Government to intervene on a private Bill, and I think it would be right if the House were left to decide this question, and not run the risk of having no legislation at all on this subject this year.

I rise to support the Amendment, and especially to object to piecemeal legislation, of which I find another example sandwiched between various provisions, including some with regard to golf and the whipping of little boys for various offences. Among these provisions I find one "dealing with the London Buildings Acts, which the Bill proposes to alter in very serious particulars. The founder of this Bill suggested that relief was afforded by those clauses. So far from affording relief you are going to impose a great additional burden, and a very serious additional burden in the opinion of those who are engaged in building in London. The laws are already complicated, and the object of the new rules was to facilitate building with new material ferro-concrete and reinforced concrete, which can now only be used in addition to other walls. But when drafted the Bill is found to contain most minute and rigid rules, such as we have not yet seen in a Bill, and applying not only to the wall, but to all internal portions of the structure. As well as creating difficulties it will entail an enormous increase in the staff of the county council, which the ratepayers will have to pay. Then again they will have to pay for the enormous increase of restrictions and for the details which will have to be worked out in the cases of extraordinary complexity by the surveyors before anything is done. Public interest is already secured by regulations as to external walls, and nothing has occurred to justify this change.

What is the opinion of the public authorities? They brought all the authorities, including the Royal Institute of British Architects, the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, the Surveyors' Institute, Concrete Institute, British Fire Protection Committee, the London Master Builders' Association, the Institute of Builders, and the District Surveyors' Association. I do not think anybody could suggest that there are any other authorities. It is quite true there is the Institute of Civil Engineers, but they are petitioning against this Bill. They agreed that the scope of the Bill should be limited to the enclosing and party walls. All those authorities met the representatives of the county council, and this proposal was almost unanimously rejected. There was only one supporter of the county council proposal. I think it is a very serious matter to impose restrictions of this kind when we have all the technical authorities in daily contact with building, and who have been invited by the London County Council themselves as representing the best opinion on the subject, are opposed to them. The Royal British Institute authority is recognised. They have a public position and exercise a public duty in guarding public interests. They have opposed this matter most strongly. They have pointed out the enormous cost to building that would be involved if these proposals were to be carried out. I will read a passage from a letter of their president to the London County Council:— tion of appeal. The county council say, "If you want to appeal, appeal to us." What is the use of appealing from themselves to themselves? It is really a most monstrous proposal. The appeal ought to be to the tribunal of appeal created by the Act of 1894. If this had been a small clause, permitting more freedom, there might have been something to be said for putting it in, but it involves a most complicated and difficult set of regulations—in fact, a set of regulations so minute and so intricate have never before been inserted in any Statute. Clause 30 consists of no less than 33 sections, and covers nine pages, so that under the guise of one clause a new Bill is really being proposed. The President of the Local Government Board says, "Let the Bill go upstairs." Yes; but what does that mean? It means that the Bill is to be promoted at the expense of the ratepayers against great and legitimate opposition, and that opposition also will mean great expense. Are we in this House to pass legislation of this kind? I ask the House not to allow the matter to slip through in this way. How is the public involved? First, there is the ratepayers' money in promoting the Bill, then the opposition to it at equally heavy expense; then the burden involved by a large number of additional officials; the heavy additional fees to surveyors; the cost of the detailed plans, weights and dimensions; the cost of the additional restrictions, and the serious delays caused by hampering regulations. Is not the building trade already sufficiently depressed? Are we to impose these additional duties and burdens upon one of the most important trades of the country? All that is required is to amend the present building Acts as far as reinforced concrete is concerned. I ask the House, in the public interest, not to allow a clause of this kind to remain in the Bill. I have no objection to the other clauses, and, if this clause is withdrawn, I shall have nothing further to say.

The London County Council has imposed upon it the administration of the Building Acts for London, and if it is to do the work properly and with full responsibility the change proposed by the Bill of which so much has been heard is simply necessitated by the new style of building construction—that is to say, going from brickwork to skeleton ironwork. We are advised that if buildings are to be put up with skeleton ironwork we must control the interior as well as the exterior portion. The whole frame- work of the house is one, and if we control one part we must control the rest of the house. If people object to the new method there is nothing to prevent them from putting up their houses in the old fashion. As regards the conference with various experts, the House will learn from me that 17 out of 20 points were conceded to the gentlemen in question. We hear that there are 33 sections in the Bill setting out various technical matters. We thought it better to set out these clearly in the Bill, so that anybody who proposes to carry out operations which come within the scope of the Bill will not have to go to the county council as the building authority to ask permission when putting up a building. As regards the question of appeal, if the county council is to administer the Act, it seems to me that the council is the proper authority to appeal to. If Parliament desires somebody else to administer the Act, they can impose the duty upon them. As to the milk portion, I hope the House will accept the advice given by the right hon. Gentleman. The county council only brought in these milk clauses in default of a definite promise from the Government, and the right hon. Gentleman has now given a definite pledge that a Bill will be brought in. Therefore as one of the promoters of this Bill I entirely support the withdrawal of the milk clauses. I appeal to the House to give the Bill a second reading, and allow technical matters to be dealt with in Committee.

I rise to support my hon. Friend in his protest against the provisions of the section to which he referred. It is absolutely impossible to conduct building operations with a clause of this sort. I do not know who the London County Council consulted, but I cannot imagine that any group of experts—engineers, architects, or surveyors—with any experience at all in building operations could suppose that building operations could go on in London with the requisite speed with a clause of this sort hanging over the operations. In large building enterprises no such details are attempted. You lay down the main lines of development, but the suggestion that you can provide a month before the beginning of operations for all the details set out in that clause is one which I venture to submit would not be supported by any reasonable expert in any branch of the building trade. As to the other point, namely, sub-clause 32, I also support by hon. Friend in his protest. The selection of the body that originally condemned a particular proposal made by a builder in connection with a venture of that sort as the body to whom an appeal is to be made is really not justice but a perfect farce. We have this kind of thing all over the country to-day, and everyone with any knowledge of municipal life knows very well what takes place. These two things combined are two very serious things indeed, and I ask those who are responsible to give their consideration to the question of a modification of these particular points. I hope before we go into the Lobby it will be stated by someone on the Front Bench that there will be some modification.

I rise to make, an appeal to the Government before we go to a Division to give their views on the particular points which have been referred to. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken probably differ from me on many questions, but I agree with him as to the way in which these kind of rules are carried out. I think that the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham is a very remarkable one. His views on building are very peculiar, for these new kind of buildings are put up in all parts of the world, and to get out of the difficulty by building in the old way is a singular suggestion. I hope also that the Government will say something with reference to Sub-clause 32, which I regard as a most dangerous one. He appeal should not be to the authority which carries out the rules, but the appeal should be to an authority composed of three members—one nominated by the Secretary of State, one by the Surveyors' Institute, and the third by the Society of Arts. Perhaps the Government will tell us what their opinion is on that question, and will give an undertaking.

It is only by the indulgence of the House that I can respond to the appeals made by the Member for Birkenhead, and the Noble Lord who has just sat down, I am assured by Members of the London County Council who are in the House, that both questions will receive sympathetic and serious consideration when the matter comes before the Committee, so as to obviate the difficulties which have been referred to. I am assured by those in charge of the Bill that they are willing to listen to any representations that may be made to them to obviate any injustice that might occur from Section 32 of Clause 30 being passed in its present form.

Would the right hon. Gentleman accept my Instruction? Consideration is one thing; acceptance of an Instruction is another.

May I correct one statement of the right hon. Gentleman? I suggested to him that as all the members of the London County Council have already spoken on the amendment it would be better if he could urge the House to give a second reading to the Bill, and then we could reply to the points raised by hon. Members on the Building Act Clauses when the Instruction on that subject is moved. I did not say we in any way agreed with the case made out.

May I appeal to the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken to deal with the enemy when he has the opportunity. If he wants this: Bill he had better accept the second reading even at the cost of accepting the Instruction of the hon. Member for the City of London. I want to see greater elasticity given to an industry which is already depressed, and which has a right to adopt itself to the modern ideas of new construction. If this Bill is not passed it is going to damage the building to an extent to which the House of Commons ought not to lend its countenance. I appeal, therefore, for the acceptance of the hon. Baronet's Instruction for the omission of Subsection 32, and the point made by the hon. member for Birkenhead will receive serious consideration upstairs.

If this Bill is read a second time it will not in any way hamper the Committee upstairs in dealing with certain clauses if they think it desirable. As a Member for London, I shall certainly not be a party to the deleting of some of the most important clauses. I cannot understand how any Member representing a London Constituency can say he will vote in favour of deleting what everyone who has read the Bill must know is a most important part of it. If because the Government intend to bring in another Bill the Committee may be moved to throw out this clause I must accept their decision, but I do hope the House will take the usual course and leave the details in the hands of the Committee upstairs. There is only one point of great importance, and it is this: it gives to the London County Council power to refuse to take milk from certain sources that prove to be contaminated. Can any unbiassed person oppose that? It is absurd for people to get up and plead on behalf of the farmers as against the life of the child. Anything that tends to decrease infantile mortality will have my strong support. The Member for Birkenhead seems to fail to understand, what really is the case, that this is not an appeal from the council; it is an appeal from the district surveyor, who is not in the employment of the council, but is a different man altogether. His salary happens to be paid by the county council, but there can be nothing unfair about that, and I am sure also that must be a matter which could be left with greater confidence to the Committee upstairs. It has always been the case in this country, anyhow for many years, that London gets what other parts of the country will not put up with, and I hope as regards milk that we shall put our foot on this once and for all. As regards the larger measure for the whole country, I shall support it whole-heartedly and enthusiastically, but that in no way prevents me from supporting these extra clauses brought forward by the county council.

A friend of mine was stopping in the country recently and heard the farmer with whom he was staying bemoaning the loss of a cow that had suddenly died. He saw the farmer later in the day, and asked him what he had done with it. The farmer said/ "I have sent it up to the London market to be eaten." He looked at the farmer and said, "It is a most terrible thing to suggest that to me." The farmer said, "Would you have us eat it here? "That is the general feeling that exists in the country. What they do not consume there they send to London for the simple reason that the demand is so great that they can get rid of it. I plead with those members of the county council who have brought in this Bill, and particularly with the hon. Member for Bury, not to withdraw these clauses. Let us have a second reading, and then divide if necessary on the question of deleting these clauses. I appeal to him not to delete them for the sake of the infantile mortality in London, which is a disgrace to our civilisation.

As an old chairman of the Building Act Committee, I should like to explain one or two misunderstandings which have been put before the House. In the first place sub-clause 32 states that there shall be an appeal from the district surveyor to the county council. The district surveyor is not I the servant of the county council. He is not paid by the county council, but by fees paid under the London Building Act. He is appointed by the county council, but they cannot dismiss him, and once he is appointed he is practically appointed for life, except in the case of gross misbehaviour. The question of appeal is not like an appeal from one body to another, but from a statutory servant to the county council. If it is decided that the county council shall not be the body to appeal to the question of the tribunal to be adopted is one which ought to be decided by the Committee.

With reference to sub-clause 29 the object of this clause is to enable skeleton steel structures to be put up. At the present moment we cannot build these skeleton steel structures except under the existing law of the Building Act, which, if you have a wall 80 feet high, necessitates your putting in the lower part of the wall 2 feet 6 inches thick, although you may be carrying the whole weight of the structure on your steel construction. That is an enormous additional cost. The object of these clauses is to enable this new system of steel construction and ferroconcrete to be used economically, which it cannot be at present. The whole question resolves itself into this—how is this new system of steel structure to be supervised? It has to be supervised by someone. The district surveyor is obviously the right person in the first instance. As to the extent of the detail that ought to be submitted to the district surveyor by the building owner, that is a question of detail which the committee, after hearing technical evidence, must settle. Whether there is too much detail put into these clauses or too little is a matter which this House cannot by any means settle satisfactorily. I must refer that point to the Committee. I should like the House to accept the clauses as they stand because there will be an enormous advantage to the building of London now which is hindered by their not being able to put up these ferro-concrete structures, and to leave the detail as to how much or how little supervision, or how the supervision should be worked out, to the Committee, which is alone competent to deal with this question.

I wish to associate myself with the protest which has been made against the suggestion that these clauses should be withdrawn. No doubt the suggestion coming from the President of the Local Government Board would practically secure the withdrawal of these clauses by the London County Council when the Bill comes before the Committee, but I think he takes upon himself a most serious responsibility when he asks for this withdrawal unless he can secure not only the introduction of his Milk Bill, but also the passing of it into law. All that the London County Council desire is that milk which is unfit for the food of man shall be prohibited from being sold in London. Surely there is no hon. Member here who does not desire that it should be prohibited, and yet directly such clauses are put down twelve hon. Members representing agricultural districts immediately put down amendments to destroy them and destroy the Bill. In my experience our large cities have become places to which bad milk and bad meat are sent from throughout the country. This is not a new question. It has been before the House for five or six years. When the late Government were in office we were told that it was no good bringing in Bills and trying to force upon the House any more of these public health clauses. It was no good so long as a Tory Government was in power, but we were told to wait until a Liberal Government was in office. We have done so, and what do we get?

The hon. Member asks what we have got. A definite promise on behalf of the Government for a general Milk Bill to deal with the problem on national as against municipal lines.

I was going to point out that we have a promise of that Bill, but we have not got a promise of his passing that Bill into law, and although the Government is very powerful in this House there is another House in which they are not so powerful. Every year London has made an effort to get rid of this evil, and every year when it does not do so it means the death of large numbers in London. The right hon. Gentleman incurs a very serious responsibility when he asks the London County Council to withdraw these clauses. Probably by the time the Bill goes up to the Committee there will be very little for the Committee to consider. But if there is any method by which we can protest against the withdrawal of these clauses I for one associate myself with them.

Before the London County Council pressed for the building clauses to be put into this Rill an invitation was sent out to various bodies to attend a conference. There were eight representative bodies, architects, surveyors, and so on, and they came to the unanimous conclusion that these proposed resolutions were vexatious and unnecessary to a very large extent. The use of steel and iron when brought in about 30 years ago revolutionised the building trade in London, and I do not think that in the construction of buildings in London the buildings have suffered, or that any of them have fallen down. Everything has been carried on well. The Society of British Architects, and these other various bodies are as anxious as we are all here for the safety and good construction of the buildings. But in these times when the building trade is so bad, when unemployment is so rife, we should be very careful before we put forward vexatious rules and laws which are no help to the building trade, but will hinder it, and make unemployment worse than it is now. I hope that when the Bill does go to the Committee they will pause before they accept these reports.

In the old days there was a model milk clause inserted in all these Bills. That did not go far enough. The result was that several clauses more stringent were proposed to be put in and they were not put in; they were defeated by agriculturalists, not because they objected to any restrictions as to the purity of the milk, or that they objected to people having the right to prevent the sale of bad milk, but because they objected to not knowing what the regulations were to which they had to conform when they sold the milk in different places. The agriculturalists throughout the country have demanded, and I think demanded with some justice, that clauses regarding the purity of milk should be uniform throughout the country, so that the farmer sending his milk to market may know what he has got to deal with, and what inspectors he has got to satisfy. That is what we are hoping the Government are going to bring in. It is a definite promise, and we expect that the measure will pass this House without much opposition, and I do not expect any great opposition from the agriculturalists of the country, because those who like myself have been continually in contact with them know that what they demand is not the prevention of the sale of bad milk, but that the regulations may be uniform and regular throughout the country, so that they may know what they have got to deal with. I agree with the last speaker that any restriction on the building trade at the present moment would be deleterious to that trade, which is in a bad way; but I do not think that hon. Members have quite grasped the present state of things. Building skeleton iron which is carried on in America is very economical there, but is not so at present in London for this reason. According to the height of the house the county council have the right to dictate the thickness of the walls. If you are to have the walls equally thick in brick work whether you have got the iron work to support the house or not there is no economy in putting the iron framework up. In one sense I think this goes much too far, and we ought to do away with the absurdity of giving a month's notice.

That has already been done away with by agreement. The reason this has not been announced is that nobody representing the council has had an opportunity of putting the opposite side.

I am glad to hear that it has been done away with by agreement. I think, however, that it would be better to do away with it by law.

I presume the hon. Member is alluding to the one month's notice provided under sub-section 29. It has been agreed that we should drop that provision, and only two days' notice will be necessary at the beginning of the building under section 145 of the Act of 1894.

If it is agreed that the obnoxious part of that clause is to be taken out in Committee, then I do not think the Bill can do the building trade much harm. The milk clauses are also being deleted, and therefore the agriculturalists will be satisfied. Under these circumstances, I think we ought to give the Bill a second reading.

With regard to the death rate amongst children alleged to be due to milk, I have never heard the slightest evidence that a single child has been killed by it. There is abundant evidence that children die in London through not having enough milk. We want an abundance of cheap milk. There is not the slightest evidence that tuberculosis has been conveyed to children through the drinking of milk, and the experiments made by the Royal Commission to show the contrary are childish and ridiculous. In the West End of London, where the children drink large quantities of milk, the mortality is not so high as in the poorer parts of London. What the poor people want is lots of cheap milk, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept the advice of surgeons and doctors of great experience on this question.

We have not up to the present received any satisfactory reply to the objections raised to Clauses 30 to 33. It has been pointed out that these clauses will not only cause an unnecessary interference with the building trade of London, but they will also entail an enormous increase in the cost of buildings, which will very much hamper the trade. The real difficulty is that it is proposed to impose regulations on the internal structure of buildings as well as on the external walls. I certainly have heard no kind of defence of this invasion so far as we have gone. I think before the House comes to a Division it is entitled to an explanation of this innovation. The hon. Member also pointed out that a conference had been called by the superintendent architect of the London County Council, and that that Conference —amost representative body—decided with only one dissentient voice that these restrictions should only apply to external walls. In spite of that, and against that opinion, the Bill has been brought forward in its original form, and up to this moment we have had no kind of explanation why that should be.

Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

Main Question put, and agreed to. Bill read a second time, and committed.

Supply

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1909–10 (Vote on Account).

Postponed Proceeding on Question proposed, on consideration of Question, "That a sum, not exceeding £26,232,000, be granted to His Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charges for the Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1910":—

Which Question was "That Item Class IV., Vote 1 (Board of Education), be reduced by £100," resumed:—

Question again proposed:—

I was speaking on this subject this afternoon. This question of the reorganisation of South Kensington Museum is really one of great importance. It has not been discussed in this present Parliament. One of the chief recommendations that this Committee deals with is the amalgamation of the Eastern collections of that museum with the Western collections, I deeply regret that the Committee which was empowered to make recommendations had not been strengthened by the introduction of expert Oriental assistance. They point to the views of a Committee of this House, on which I had the honour to serve, ten or twelve years-ago. The Select Committee, the President of the Local Government Board will remember, recommended that the Oriental collection should be removed from the western to the eastern side of Exhibition-road—that is to say, to the new building which has just been erected. But this Committee, partly basing itself upon that recommendation, has I think, wholly misunderstood our views and instead of recommending that the collection shall be removed en bloc to the new building on the eastern side of Exhibition-road, recommended that the Oriental objects should be redistributed among the Western objects in the existing museum. That I believe to be a real mistake. I hold the East is the East, and should be acknowledged as such, and I cannot help thinking that this is a most unhappy moment to-choose, from a political as well as from a social point of view, for denationalising the art of India. I think it is a most deplorable thing. I think it is sad that this great historic collection should be dispersed. It is unfortunate that owing to that dispersion it will be impossible for us in future to have one acknowledged expert in charge of that collection, and the idea of at this moment denationalising the art, history, and sociology of India and of our great Eastern possessions is in my opinion most unfortunate. The right hon. Gentleman has received a memorial signed by persons who are entitled to place their views before him begging that this step shall be reconsidered. I trust before long that the India Office, which is partly responsible, will realise how undesirable it is from their point of view, and that the right hon. Gentleman will equally appreciate the objection from another point of view. As regards this report, I think it is rather unfortunate that no evidence should have been submitted with it. Evidence is given and evidence is quoted. The Committee seems to have somewhat hastily, I should think, condemned certain public departments in this country and certain public men. For instance, on page 20 I find some drastic condemnations of Sir Aston Webb, the architect. That to my mind involves a certain condemnation of the Office of Works. Sir Aston Webb and the Office of Works have got a case. I do not know what their defence is, but I have no doubt that their defence was given, and I have no hesitation in saying that defence is probably just and well founded. So also is the whole system of electric lighting that has been adopted, and the whole method arranged for the exhibition of objects. Here again I think the House is entitled to know what defence the right hon. Gentleman's Department has, which is, of course, primarily responsible for this part of the business.

In New York, which is the most modern and which is a great museum, the classification is, of course, not by material. Although I understand the director of that museum supports this Report, he took no steps towards carrying it out in that direction in his own museum. The inevitable result of trying to classify by material in this way, trying to be strictly logical, is that one is driven to ignore what really is the most important thing—that is, the art and not the material out of which the art is fashioned. Take the case of sculpture. The chief collection in this museum is under the classification of what is to be called stone and marble. Stone and marble sounds like a branch of some great co-operative store. Metal, stone, and marble represent sculpture and architecture, which are the two great central arts of the world. These recommendations are put forward on the ground that they are going to help what is called the commercial manufacture of art objects. That is ignoring the great central fact of the arts. No applied art can exist which is not based upon one of those central arts. You have got this stone and marble department, in which I presume all our greatest objects will be crowded, and which by virtue of its being classified by material ignores the fact that it is art, and not merely stone and marble. What is to happen to sculpture? Take the great Italian sculptors. In one department you have marble, another bronze, or, I suppose, the metal department. You will have a wooden statue, and that will be in Department No. 6. In the fourth departments you will have the work of the great clay sculptor, which, as it is enamelled, will probably be placed in the Ceramic Department. You will have carvings of ivory, possibly a quarter of a mile from the rest of the exhibits. You disperse your art in that way, and by so doing you will reduce the whole of the historical and didactic value of those collections. I confess I read this report with something akin to despair. I do not blame the Committee, and I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman, who is not responsible for the committee, which consists of distinguished gentlemen, but not persons who are connected with the arts represented. The paragraph is an apology for sculpture. They say that the ideal arrangement is that sculpture should be taken out of the museums of the country and put into one central department. That is the isolation of art, the one thing we do not want, and which every great collection in the world has successfully avoided. These things are treated like a collection of mineralogy, in which each single item is to be classified according to some logical scheme which has no connection with the art or craft, and cannot contribute to the advancement of either. If the recommendation of the Committee is acted on, this country will be precluded from securing specimens of the greatest sculptors who ever lived. No single work of Michael Angelo can be called applied design. If the South Kensington authorities were offered a bust by a great man like Bernini, they would have to refuse its purchase. They would have had to refuse the purchase of a notable statue by the great French sculptor, Rodin. I am sure that is not intended by the Committee, but that is the effect of their recommendation. But, while the Committee has treated an art like sculpture with so little respect, it has treated glass with meticulous accuracy, as if glass were one of the great things for which the Victoria and Albert Museum exists. Glass is to be arranged under ten heads, which read like a chemical analysis. I sincerely hope that the right hon. Gentleman, now that he has more time than he had a few months ago, will see if it is not possible to revise some of these decisions, and ascertain whether the views of those who have carried out great museum reorganisations here, in America, and in Europe cannot be adopted in a more sympathetic spirit.

And, it being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, in pursuance of Standing Order 15, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the Vote.

Question put, "That Item Class IV.,

Division No. 31. ]]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Forster, Henry William

Nolan, Joseph

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Balcarres, Lord

Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Baldwin, Stanley

Gretton, John

Peel, Hon. W. E. W.

Banhury, Sir Frederick George

Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds)

Percy, Earl

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Hamilton, Marquess of

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Pretyman, E. G.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hayden, John Patrick

Reddy, M.

Bull, Sir William James

Hills, J. W.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hogan, Michael

Renwick, George

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Joynson-Hicks, William

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Stanier, Beville

Cave, George

Kilbride, Denis

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)

Lane-Fox, G. E.

Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)

Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire)

Courthope, G. Lloyd

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Craik, Sir Henry

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Dillon, John

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Winterton, Earl

Duffy, William J.

Meagher, Michael

Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)

Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)

Faber. George Denison (York)

Morrison-Bell, Captain

TELLERS FOE THE AYES.—Sir A. Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Murphy, John (Kerry, East)

Fell, Arthur

Nicholson. Wm. G. (Petersfield)

NOES.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Adkins, W. Ryland D.

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis

Agnew, George William

Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)

Lehmann, B. C.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Levy, Sir Maurice

Asquith, Et. Hon. Herbert Henry

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Lewis, John Herbert

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Lupton, Arnold

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Everett, E. Lacey

Lyell, Charles Henry

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Falconer, J.

Lynch, H. B.

Barnard, E. B.

Fenwick, Charles

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Barnes, G. N.

Ferens, T. E.

Maclean, Donald

Barran, Sir John Nicholson

Fuller, John Michael F.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)

Fullerton, Hugh

Macpherson, J. T.

Beale, W. P.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

M'Crae, Sir George

Boulton, A. C. F.

Gill, A. H.

M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester)

Brigg, John

Gladstone, Et. Hon. Herbert John

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Bright, J. A.

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Maddison, Frederick

Brodie, H. C.

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Mallet, Charles E.

Brooke, Stopford

Gurdon, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Brampton

Markham, Arthur Basil

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh)

Hall, Frederick

Marnham, F. J.

Buckmaster, Stanley 0.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Middlebrook, William

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles

Haworth, Arthur A.

Mond, A.

Byles, William Pollard

Hedges, A. Paget

Montgomery, H. G.

Cameron, Robert

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight

Henry, Charles S.

Morse, L. L.

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Cheetham, John Frederick

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Higham, John Sharp

Myer, Horatio

Clough, William

Hobart, Sir Robert

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Clynes, J. R.

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Nicholls, George

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Hodge, John

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Holt, Richard Durning

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)

Hudson, Walter

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Cooper, G. J.

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Parker, James (Halifax)

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex. E. Grinstead)

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Crooks, William

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Radford, G. H.

Crossley, William J.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Rainy, A. Rolland

Vote 1 (Board of Education), be reduced1 by £100":—The Committee divided; Ayes. 75, Noes 178.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarboro')

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Waterlow, D. S.

Roberts. Charles H. (Lincoln)

Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon)

Watt, Henry A.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Summerbell, T.

Weir, James Galloway

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

White, Sir George (Norfolk)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Robinson, S.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.)

Wiles, Thomas

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Tomkinson, James

Williamson, A.

Rose, Charles Day

Toulmin, George

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

Rowlands. J.

Ure, Alexander

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Verney, F. W.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Vivian, Henry

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)

Wadsworth, J.

Seddon. J.

Walters, John Tudor

Seely, Colonel

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and the Master of Elibank.

Shackleton, David James

Waring, Walter

Simon, John Allsebrook

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Resolution agreed to; ordered to be reported.

The House resumed; the DEPUTY-SPEAKEK (MR. EMMOTT) in the chair.

Outdoor Relief Friendly Societies (Scotland) Bill

moved the second reading of the Outdoor Relief Friendly Societies (Scotland) Bill. He said: I would like to appeal to hon. Members not to object. The Bill is a simple Bill, intended to place members of friendly societies in Scotland in the same position as they are placed in in England by the Act of 1904. The Bill has the support of hon. Members on both sides of the House.

Objection being taken,

Further consideration postponed.

House adjourned at a quarter past Eleven of the clock.