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Commons Chamber

Volume 2: debated on Tuesday 16 March 1909

House of Commons

Tuesday, March 16, 1909

Private Business

Hastings Harbour Bill (Considered).

County Court Procedure

Address agreed to for copy of Report of the Committee appointed by the Lord Chancellor to inquire into certain matters of County Court Procedure.—[ Mr. T. R. Bethell ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Ships for Foreign Trade

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether materials to be used in the construction, outfit, and machinery of ships for Foreign trade and for trade between the Atlantic and Pacific ports of the United States are admitted free of duty into the United States?

The answer is in the affirmative.

Most-Favoured-Nation Clause

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether the United States gives to this country under the most-favoured-nation clause the same privileges as she grants to countries from which she has received reciprocal concessions?

We have most-favoured treatment except as regards spirits, wines, vermuth, and argols, on which special tariff advantages are conceded to certain countries. Cuban goods are admitted at a reduction of 20 per cent.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations so as to ensure full most-favoured-nation treatment to this country?

I think the position is not unsatisfactory, and I do not think there is need for His Majesty's Government to take any special measures.

San Thomé and Principé (Slavery)

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs how long communications had been proceeding between His Majesty's Government and that of' Portugal as to the slavery existing in San Thomé and Principé; and when Papers will be laid?

Communications have passed at various times since 1882, and lately there has been frequent discussion of the subject. As to the present position of the question, I can add nothing to previous answers, nor can I say when Papers will be laid.

Deportation of British Subjects (India)

asked the Under-Secretary: of State for India whether the Secretary of State made any inquiries into the previous record of Mr. Krishna Kumer Mittra before he sanctioned his deportation and imprisonment without charge or trial; and, if so, if it was upon that record that he was deprived of his liberty without being heard in his own defence and is still being kept in banishment from his home?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. Gentleman on Tuesday last, and to which I have nothing to add.

May I ask whether this gentleman was suspected of organising a movement for the encouragement of home industries in India, and whether that formed the ground on which he was deported?

I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Gentleman on the same subject last Tuesday.

May I ask whether, in the opinion of the Government of India, it is a crime to organise a movement for the encouragement of home industries?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State sanctioned the arrest, deportation and imprisonment, without charge or trial, of Mr. Satish Chatterjee, with the knowledge that he was a professor at a college affiliated to the University of Calcutta, and that no objection had been made either by the university or the Government against his teaching; and, if so, upon what grounds he decided that the imprisonment of this gentleman was necessary for the security of the British dominions in India from internal commotion?

I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to this question on Tuesday last.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me on the first part of the question whether the Secretary of State sanctioned the arrest, deportation, and imprisonment of this gentleman with the knowledge that he was a professor of a college affiliated to the University of Calcutta, and whether any objection has been made by the University to his teaching?

I answered the hon. Gentleman on Tuesday last on the very same preamble to his question. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; and on the second part the Secretary of State has no information.

asked the Under-Secretary for India whether he would state what inquiries were made by the Secretary of State into the previous histories of the nine British subjects in India whose deportation and imprisonment, without charge or trial, he sanctioned in December last; what was the result of those inquiries; and whether any fresh facts have been brought to his knowledge to justify their continued imprisonment?

As I have stated before on several occasions, the Secretary of State "does not consider it desirable in the public interest to make any statement as to the particular grounds on which action was taken in the several cases. The Secretary of State believes that the Government of India in every case satisfied themselves that it came within the terms of the Regulation.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to an hon. Member on the 2nd March. It is not in my power to make any statement or communication between the Secretary of State and the Government of India on this subject.

May I ask whether the persons deported under these regulations have the same advantage as all criminals possess of having their previous good character taken into consideration?

The hon. Member is aware from the many questions he has asked, and from the many answers I have given, what are the privileges which persons who come under these regulations enjoy.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. Are the persons who are deported entitled to have their previous character taken into consideration?

asked the Under-Secretary for India whether, when the Secretary of State sanctioned the deportation and imprisonment, without charge or trial, of Mr. Ashwini Kumar Dutt, he had been made aware by the Government of India that that gentleman was a graduate of the University of Calcutta and the founder of a college affiliated to that university, had been several times elected chairman of the municipality of Barisal, and had been an active organiser of philanthropic movements; and, if not, whether, in view of these facts, he will order his release from custody or state why he is still detained in prison?

I answered an identical question by the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne last Tuesday.

Will the right hon. Gentleman simply say whether the Secretary of State knows that Mr. Dutt founded a college.

I answered that last Tuesday. The Government of India were well aware of the fact.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has been advised that there is a substantial difference between the Government of India and that of Russia, and between the Duma and this Parliament.

asked the Under-Secretary for India, in view of the fact that under the Indian Regulation of 3rd April, 1818, it is stated that the ends of justice require that when it may be determined that any person shall be placed under personal restraint otherwise than in pursuance of some judicial proceeding, the grounds of such determination should from time to time come under revision, and the person thereby affected should at all times be allowed freely to bring to the-notice of the Governor-General in Council all circumstances relating either to the supposed grounds of such determination or to the manner in which it may be executed, whether he will assure the House that, in future cases of personal restraint under this regulation, sufficient indication shall be given to the person under restraint of the reasons actuating the Government to enable him to bring to the notice of the Governor-General the circumstances which it appears to such person necessary for the ends of justice should be brought to his knowledge?

The Secretary of State sees no good reason for altering the procedure in future cases under the Regulation, should any such arise.

Have any of these private gentlemen availed themselves of the opportunity afforded by the regulations of representing their cases specifically to the Government of India?

asked the Under-Secretary for India whether the Secretary of State has made any inquiry from the authorities in India as to what representations have been made by way of defence or protest by the nine British subjects, or any of them, who were deported in December without charge or trial, and, if not, whether it his intention at any time to make such inquiry?

The Secretary of State does not think it necessary to make such an inquiry as is indicated in the question. The Government of India have been instructed to keep him informed on such matters.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know if the Secretary of State has inquired whether any of these gentlemen have made any defence whatever under these regulations?

The Secretary of State gave special instructions to the Government of India that he was to be kept informed on the various matters.

So far as I am aware, there have been no representations on the subject.

May I ask whether special instructions have been given that the House of Commons should not be informed of these matters in any particular?

I do not think it is in the discretion of the Government of India as to what information should be given to the House of Commons.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, whether, a few days before the deportation in December last of nine British subjects without charge or trial, a Criminal Law Amendment Act was passed under which they could have been summarily tried by a duly constituted court for the offences of which they were believed to be guilty; and, if so, whether the Government of India has given any reason for not bringing them to trial under that Act?

If the hon. Member will refer to the regulation of 1818 he will see that it was expressly intended for the detention of persons without judicial proceedings in cases in which the security of the British dominions from internal commotion demanded that course of action.

May I ask whether he will consider the question of transferring some of the officials of the India Office to the office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland?

Contractors in Crown Colonies

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if contractors in the Crown Colonies are asked to comply with regulations as to wages and conditions of labour not less favourable to their workmen than those of competing contractors for Government work in this country?

No, Sir; the conditions as to labour and wages in Crown Colonies are quite unlike those existing here; and a uniform contract for this country and for such colonies could not be made.

May I ask if there is on the part of the Government a race distinction in this matter?

Not a race distinction, but there is a great difference in their position. The position of a Uganda labourer is very different from that of a labourer say in Scotland.

British Immigrants at Toronto

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that, on a complaint being made in the Canadian House of Commons on Wednesday, 10th March, 1909, that 300 British immigrants had arrived at Toronto workless and penniless, the Canadian Minister for the Interior said that his Government would, in future, enforce the rule that all immigrants entering Canada must show that they possess not less than £5; and will he arrange that this statement of the Canadian Minister for the Interior will be prominently exhibited in every post office, and also posted upon the' door of every place of worship, as well as on the notice boards of every police station in Great Britain and Ireland, in order that intending emigrants to Canada may be effectively warned as to the conditions upon which they may be permitted to enter the Colony?

My attention has been drawn to statements in the Press to the effect referred to by my hon. Friend. The Canadian rule as to the possession of money by immigrants is widely advertised in this country by the Emigrants' Information Office by means of posters displayed in every post office and some 1,400 public libraries and similar institutions, as well as by monthly notices in the Press and in the Board of Trade Labour Gazette. Attention is also called to the rule on the back of the free circulars relating to Canada, of which many thousands are distributed by the Emigrants' Information Office every month.

Northern Nigeria (Committee on Land Tenure)

asked when the Report of the Committee on Land Tenure and Taxation in Northern Nigeria, which sat last Session, will be published?

Transvaal Indigency Commission (Report)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if his attention has been drawn to the report of the Transvaal Indigency Commission, 1908; and whether, in view of its recom- mendations of the taxation of land values, he will have it issued to Members?

I have the Report, which contains many matters of interest to residents in the Transvaal especially. Copies shall be placed in the Library, and I will endeavour to get further copies from South Africa.

Encroachment of Sea at Kilnsea

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received a Report from his expert advisers of their recent local inspection with regard to the situation arising from the encroachment of the sea at Kilnsea; and whether, if he has received it, he intends to take any action to strengthen the existing Government defences at the Spurn and so guard against the probable destruction of communication with that headland and also the possible danger to the maintenance of the navigable channel of the Humber?

This question is under consideration at the Treasury.

Court of Session Business

asked the Lord-Advocate if his attention has been called to the length of time elapsing between the hearing of cases in the First Division of the Court of Session and the delivering of judgments; whether he is aware that in many cases this delay extends to six months, occasioning considerable loss and inconvenience to litigants; and whether he will take steps, by means of temporary appointments or otherwise, to expedite matters for the public benefit?

The answer to the first and second parts of my hon. Friend's question is in the negative. From inquiries I have made I have ascertained that there are no cases in which delays have occurred of such length as is stated in the question. And when the Court rises for the Spring Vacation at the end of the present week every case which has been taken to avizandum by the First Division will have been disposed of. There are no steps, such as my hon. Friend suggests, available to me by which the period of time between the hearing and decision of cases can be expedited. That is a matter entirely within the power and discretion of His Majesty's Judges. But even if I had power to interfere, I see no reason whatever for interference.

Navy (Supply of Bacon)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state the value of Irish bacon supplied to the Navy during the last year of which he has full particulars; and can he state what was the value of foreign bacon supplied to the Navy during the same period?

Bacon is not included in the Naval dietary, but if the hon. Member's question is intended to refer to salt pork, the value of the quantity purchased this financial year from Irish firms is £4,040, and from foreign firms £3,938.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether bacon is not supplied to the officers of the Navy as distinct from the men?

Are we right in assuming that foreign bacon is not included in the Navy rations?

It is an old controversy, which I do not think it is desirable to continue.

May I ask why some of this bacon order should not be given to England?

Did the right hon. Gentleman use the word "bacon" in his reply?

United States Customs Tariffs

asked the President of the Board of Trade, if his attention had been directed to the fact that British commerce is threatened by proposals to make serious reductions in the customs tariffs of the United States; and if he can take any measures, whether by way of tariff retaliation or otherwise, to safeguard British shipping and trade interests in this connection?

Before this question is answered, may I ask the President of the Board of Trade if he has any official knowledge of the articles of import which will be subject to the reduction of tariff in the United States, and how far they will affect British commerce and trade?

I do not apprehend that any injury could be inflicted upon British commerce by reductions which might be effected in the American tariff. Although a lowering of American duties would no doubt make the United States a more formidable competitor in particular branches of trade, nevertheless the gain to the purchasing power of the United States and the abatement of restrictions upon the commercial intercourse of the world would confer sensible advantages upon all nations, and from those advantages we should certainly not be excluded. It is, however, better to judge of reductions in the tariff of the United States of America when they have actually been determined by the Government of that country.

May I ask if it is not a fact that the United States only possess 800,000 tons of over-sea shipping, and that her tariff which she would otherwise have, and that therefore—

Birkenhead Docks Accident

asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether his attention has been called to an accident caused by the failure of a coffer dam on the new dock works at Birkenhead by which 14 men lost their lives and others were injured; and whether it is proposed to hold an official inquiry into the cause and circumstances of such accident under the Notice of Accidents Act, 1894?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The accident referred to does not fall within the provisions, either of the Notice of Accidents Act, 1894, or of the Factory and Workshops Acts, and there is consequently at present no power to order an official inquiry. As my hon. Friend is aware, the Home Office is promoting legislation this Session in regard to engineering works, which will cover cases of this kind. Having regard, however, to the special circumstances of the accident in question, and in view of the legislation now pending, I have thought it desirable to instruct the factory inspector of the district to investigate the causes and circumstances of the accident as far as possible, and attend the inquest on behalf of the Department.

French Tariff (Retaliation)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the representations he has made to the French Government on the subject of their increased tariff, he has used any threats of retaliation?

I am not prepared to make any statement at present upon the attitude of His Majesty's Government towards the French tariff proposals, which are not, however, as stated in the question, put forward by the French Government, but by a Committee of the French Legislature.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Cabinet are agreed on the subject of retaliation?

That question is already covered by my answer to the preceding question.

House-Purchase Investments

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the terms in which the warning to persons thinking of investing in house-purchase and similar companies was circulated; what steps were taken to ensure a wide circulation; and what assurance he has that this warning reached the persons for whom it was intended?

The terms of the Memorandum which I caused to be issued are set out in full in the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness on 7th December last. I am sending the hon. Member a copy. The Memorandum, or a summary of it, was widely published in the Press throughout the country, and, from communications which I have received, I have every reason to believe that it reached many of the persons for whom it was intended.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a movement on foot to transfer these companies to another company under another name?

No, Sir. I have been paying some attention to the proceedings of this and other companies, and I do not know of any step being taken which comes within the statutory powers of the Board of Trade.

North Uist Fishermen's Losses

asked the Lord Advocate if his attention had been drawn to the loss sustained by the fishermen in North Uist through a storm in December last, when a number of boats were damaged and lost; whether he is aware that the fishermen have applied to the Congested Districts Board asking for a loan to enable them to repair the damage; that the Congested Districts Board have replied refusing to entertain the application; and if he will take steps to induce the Board to reconsider this question, and to help in a matter so directly affecting congestion in the West Highlands?

This matter has been again brought to the attention of the Board and of the Secretary for Scotland, and I cannot hold out any hope that such aid as is suggested by my hon. Friend can be given.

May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman agrees with the Congested Districts Board in saying that they have no power under their Act of Parliament to make good this damage?

I do not know what opinion the Congested Districts Board hold, but my opinion is that they have power under the Statute.

Navy (Cost of Raising Grog Allowance)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how he had arrived at the calculation that to raise the grog allowance to Id. per day would cost upwards of £30,000?

This Estimate was made on the basis of the reports recently obtained from ships and establishments containing about 80,000 men as to the number of men who would desire to be added to the temperance list if the change referred to were made. Assuming that the figures applicable to this large proportion of the fleet would apply to the whole service, an immediate addition of more than 15,000 men might be expected, at an extra cost of nearly £19,000; adding to this figure the extra cost for existing temperance men, and allowing for only a moderate increase of the temperance list in subsequent years, it is estimated that the extra annual expense to which the Admiralty would be committed would be more than £30,000 a year.

Does not my right hon. Friend think that the immediate addition of 15,000 men to the temperance list would be cheaply purchased for £.30,000 a year?

Did not the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty promise last year to recommend to the Admiralty that this additional allowance should be given?

The subject has been inquired into most carefully, and as a result it is felt that, while these 15,000 men would be added to the temperance list, it would not mean an additional number of 15,000 temperance men. It is believed that a considerable number of these men would spend the penny in grog on shore.

Is it obligatory on any man in the Navy to draw the allowance of grog if he does not wish to consume it?

If the men spent the money on grog on shore, how much less grog would they be able to buy for the penny?

Considerably less— about one-fourth of the quantity—and the State would benefit to that extent.

Does my right hon. Friend mean that the men would prefer to buy on shore one-fourth of the quantity of grog they could get from the Government?

No. When I referred to "grog" on shore, I used an incorrect word; I meant liquor of some sort. On board ship they can get only a particular kind of grog; on shore they would be free to buy whatever they liked.

Is it not the case that the men have alternative kinds of grog on board ship?

Navy (Marking Grog Drinkers)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he had given effect to the recommendation of the Victualling Committee to mark grog-drinkers with the letter G on the ships' books instead of, as at present marking the temperance men T?

The Board decided that no special advantage would result from the adoption of this suggestion, which has, therefore, not been carried into effect.

Why is this invidious comparison made by marking "G" against those who take grog? Is it considered a term of opprobrium, or the reverse?

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the letter "G" is already appropriated to men who are distinguished in gunnery?

Admiralty Work at Greenock (Measurers)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what firm of measurers had been employed by his Department to measure the Admiralty work at Greenock; where was their place of business; and what experience they had of doing work in the West of Scotland?

Messrs. Lorimer, Fair-bairn and Lightbody, 56, Queen-street, Edinburgh. The superintending engineer in Scotland, who has charge of the works at Greenock, recommended this firm as being quite competent to prepare the quantities for the Admiralty work at Greenock, and they were accordingly appointed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the wisdom of appointing measurers in the locality of the work?

My hon. Friend may rest assured that the matter has been carefully considered.

Navy (Rum Eations)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he would submit to the House the reports received from officers and men of the Fleet with reference to the allowance in lieu of rum rations, in consequence of which the Board of Admiralty had decided not to carry out the suggestion made by the Committee appointed to deal with canteen arrangements in the Navy; and if he would state upon what basis he estimated that the recommendation of the Committee would cost £30,000?

It is not usual to publish reports of this nature, and it is not proposed to make an exception in this case. With regard to the last paragraph of the hon. Member's question, I would refer him to the reply given to a similar question by the hon. Member for Appleby.

If my right hon. Friend does not think it worth while to publish these reports, might I be allowed to look at some of them?

I will look into the matter, and see if they are suitable for my hon. Friend to peruse.

This is not the opportunity for arguing these questions; there will be an opportunity in less than an hour.

Navy Estimates, 1906–7–8–9

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Estimates for 1906–7 were prepared by the Unionist Government; and if he would say by how much the actual expenditure on the Navy in the years 1906–7 and 1907–8 and the Estimates for 1908–9, respectively, exceeded or fell short of the Estimates for 1906–7?

In November, 1905, Lord Cawdor gave a forecast of the Navy Estimates for 1906–07. The actual Estimates for that year were, of course, prepared by the responsible Government of the day in the early part of 1906. Although there were some alterations in various Votes, the actual total was the same as in Lord Cawdor's forecast. The actual expenditure in 1906–07, 1907–08, and 1908–09 varied from the amount voted for 1906–07 as follows:—

Small Holdings (Huntingdonshire)

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, when the county council of Huntingdonshire propose to place any men upon any land under the Small Holdings Act.

Three applicants are already in possession, and it is hoped that 900 acres will be available at Michaelmas next.

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if any application had been received by the Board from the county council of Huntingdonshire for compulsory powers for purchasing land in the parish of Ramsey; and, if not, could he state the reason why no land had yet been provided for the large number of men in that parish who had applied for it and satisfied the council of their capacity to work it?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The county council have, however, acquired 96 acres at Ramsey, and they are in negotiation for other land. If the necessary land cannot be obtained by voluntary arrangement the Board will press the council to use their compulsory powers so that the demand may be satisfied.

May I ask how long the Board will wait before they advise the county council to put in force their compulsory powers?

asked if the county council of Huntingdonshire had entered into possession of any land under agreement for purchase for small holdings; if so, in what parishes was the land situated; and what was the acreage of it?

asked if any money had been paid by the Hunts County Council for land for small holdings, either by deposit, or in part purchase, or otherwise; if any conveyances had been executed by the vendors of any such land; and, if not, if a legal contract had been entered into between the council and any vendor?

In two cases the purchase of land has been completed and the purchase price paid over by the county council. In another case the arrangements are on the point of completion.

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he was aware that the county council of Huntingdonshire last year entered into negotiation for the purchase of land in the parish of Colne, and that a scheme was prepared and the men informed what portions of this land they were individually to have; if that proposed purchase had fallen through, and what were the reasons why the county council had not gone on with the purchase; and if the council were negotiating for any other land in that parish?

We are aware of the circumstances to which my hon. Friend refers. The proposed purchase was not carried through owing to certain reservations made by the vendor. We understand that the vendor has let a considerable portion of these lands himself to the applicants, and that the council are not at the present time negotiating for any further lands in the parish of Colne.

asked if the purchase of 440 acres of land by the county council of Huntingdonshire was in one block; if not, in how many blocks was it; in what parishes were the blocks; and how many acres were there in each?

The purchase to which I think my hon. Friend refers comprises approximately 216 acres in Bluntisham, 127 acres in Farcet, and 97 acres in Godmanchester.

Post Office (Early Duties)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he could state if any increase had taken place in the short sick absences and late attendances of the postmen engaged on the 4 a.m. attendance at the East Central District Office since 27th October last; and whether, having in view the increased strain put upon the men working this early duty, he would recommend the removal from the records of the late attendances which occurred during the three months following the introduction of the new early duties?

There has been a slight increase in the short sick absences of the postmen in question in comparison with the corresponding period of the previous year; but, on the other hand, the number of late attendances has diminished. There is nothing in the figures that suggests any inference one way or the other as to the effect of the duties upon the health of the men. There appears to be no reason for dealing exceptionally with the records of late attendances for the three months following the introduction of the new scheme of duties. Allowance has already been made for late attendances due to causes beyond the control of the postmen concerned, such as late arrival of trains, tramcars, etc., owing to fog, etc.

Amalgamation of Postal Departments (Hours of Staff)

asked the Postmaster-General if he could state what sum of money had been saved per annum by the amalgamation of the Postal Stores Department and the Controller of Stores Office; what proportion of this sum accrued on account of the manipulative staff having to work 5½ additional hours per week, for three of which no additional payment had been made; and if he could state the reason for which additional hours were imposed?

If, as I assume, my hon. Friend refers to the amalgamation of the Postal Stores Department and the Telegraph Stores Department in London, which was completed in 1905, I regret that it is not possible to furnish the figures he asks for. The amalgamation was accompanied by a redistribution of some of the work formerly undertaken by these Departments among other Departments to which it was. more suitable, and by the creation of a separate Factories Department, and was not directed so much with a view to effect a financial saving as to an increase of efficiency and co-ordination of practice. The hours for all the manipulative staff were fixed at 48 hours net. The whole matter was fully explained by the late Controller of Stores in his evidence before the Select Committee on Post Office Servants (Qn. 22,142); and I may perhaps refer my hon, Friend to that explanation, as the matter is rather too complicated to deal with in a verbal answer. My hon. Friend will recollect that the staff concerned brought the question before the Committee, but that body refrained from making any recommendation in the matter.

Post Office and Indian Letters

asked the Postmaster-General whether letters passing to and from British subjects in India and British subjects in this country are being opened by public officials either here or in India, or on board the mail steamers; and, if so, upon what ground, upon whose authority, and under what law?

As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, no Post Office servant under my control is permitted to open, detain, or delay any letter save for the purpose of returning it to the sender, or in obedience to an express warrant under the hand of a Secretary of State, and I am sure that no Post Office servant is acting contrary to his duty in this respect. I think it will be obvious to my hon. Friend that any question as to the exercise of the special powers which, in the interest of public safety, are entrusted to the Secretaries of State, is strongly to be deprecated.

Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has the power of a Secretary of State to open Indian letters?

Does the same rule apply to letters passing between the United States of America and England and referring to Irish affairs?

The rule, as I have said, is this: "No Post Office servant under my control is permitted to open, detain, or delay any letter save for the purpose of returning it to the sender, or in obedience to an express warrant under the hand of a Secretary of State."

National Telephone Company's Servants

asked the Postmaster-General if he has come to an arrangement by which the contemplated discharge by the National Telephone Company of 6,000 skilled construction specialists can be avoided; and if this contemplated discharge is due to the proposal of the Post Office to take over the business of the National Telephone Company on 31st December, 1911?

I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any statement in regard to the negotiations with the National Telephone Company for the continuance of the construction plant designed for use after 1911. I must point out that, inasmuch as the company have to provide for the normal growth of their system between now and the termination of their license in 1911, they must necessarily continue to carry out a considerable amount of construction work themselves. As the hon. Member is aware, the license of the company comes to an end in 1911, and the business of the company will be taken over by the Post Office.

The right hon. Gentleman will see that these skilled men will be required after the Post Office has taken over the business. Will the Government see that they are not thrown out of employment pending the alteration?

That is a matter for very careful consideration. I am very anxious to come to terms with the National Telephone Company. I regret that, so far, I have not been able to come to terms, but I am still in negotiation with them.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many skilled men have been discharged by the company?

Having regard to the statement made by the chairman of .the National Telephone Company on 25th February that if an agreement is not come to between the company and the Post Office the construction department men would have to be discharged, may I ask whether, if no arrangement is come to, the right hon. Gentleman's Department will endeavour to take over as many of the discharged servants of the National Tele- phone Company as possible, considering the state of unemployment at present?

May I ask whether the National Telephone Company are observing the terms of the agreement come to with the Post Office?

The condition about that is that we take over the system in 1911 by valuation, or arbitration if necessary. Under that condition the price will depend on the state of efficiency of the concern at the time it is taken over. Obviously, therefore, if the National Telephone Company neglect their work, the price which will have to be paid will be smaller than it otherwise would be.

Is it not a fact that these men are engaged on new work extensions? Is it not the case that as you have not arrived at a satisfactory arrangement the Telephone Company are declining to undertake new work, and therefore cannot continue to employ the men?

Is not the discharge of these men prima facie evidence that they are neglecting to maintain the system in a state of efficiency?

Amalgamation of Customs and Excise

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, in regard to the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry as to the amalgamation of the Customs and Excise, if he can state whether it is the intention of the Government to permit representatives of the bodies concerned to attend before such committee and give evidence?

Yes, Sir. Evidence will be accepted from members of such of the classes and upon such points as are directly included in the scope of the committee's inquiry.

National Benefit Trust

asked Mr. Attorney-General if his attention has been called to the existence of a company known as the National Benefit Trust; whether he is aware that this company practices a system of drawing for house-purchase certifi- cates; whether he is aware that this is in fact a huge lottery; and whether, in view of these circumstances, he will consider the necessity for taking some action with a view to the discontinuance of these practices?

I have made inquiries and am unable to discover anything about this Trust, or to verify its existence. Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to let me have such information as he possesses in reference to the facts suggested in the question.

Unsound Meat

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether any steps, and, if so, what steps, have been recently taken to prevent the importation into this country of meat unfit for human consumption?

I have caused two sets of Regulations under the Public Health (Regulations as to Food) Act, 1907, to be issued in connection with this matter. The first set came into operation on 1st October last, and the second on 1st January in the present year. The Regulations give power to the officers of port sanitary authorities to examine all food materials, including meat landed in their districts, and to deal with those which are unfit for human consumption. Special provision is made as regards certain kinds of meat foods which, unless they are shown not to be intended for human consumption, must be either re-exported or destroyed.

Lymington Borough Area (Rates for Services Not Supplied)

I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the case of residents within the Lymington borough area who are compelled to pay rates for services with which they are not supplied; and whether he proposes to introduce legislation with a view to redressing such inequalities? In asking this question I am not actuated by any hostility to the local authority concerned.

My attention has been called to this subject. Under Sub-section (4) of Section 211 of the Public Health Act, 1875, the Town Council could divide the borough into parts for all or any purposes of the Act, and could make a separate assessment in respect of the general district rate on any such part for all or any of the purposes for which it is formed. It is, however, within the option of the Town Council to determine whether they will exercise this power. I am afraid I could not undertake to introduce legislation of the kind suggested in the last part of the question.

May I ask whether it is the fact that he has received other representations of a kindred character from the Borough of Lymington, the Parish of Milford, and the Pennington Ward, adjoining Lymington, in the New Forest; and whether he will receive a deputation on the subjects or grant a local inquiry to look into the matters complained of?

I have received similar communications, but I do not think that at this moment a deputation is necessary.

Territorial Forces. (Qualification of Deputy-Lieutenants)

asked the Prime Minister if it is the fact that since the introduction of the Territorial Forces Act no deputy-lieutenants have been appointed except those who have had military experience or have rendered services to the regular or irregular forces; and if the same qualification is required in new appointments of lords lieutenant, whose duties in connection with the Territorial Army are now such as to make knowledge of military matters essential?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, the lord lieutenant becomes under the Statute president of the Territorial Force Association of his county unless he signifies his unwillingness to hold the office. In all recent appointments of lords lieutenant this fact has been kept in view.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was because of his military experience or his bellicose language that the Government made a D. L. of the hon. Member for North Armagh?

Upper Merthyr Tydvil (Registration District)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the petition of the Merthyr Tydvil Guardians desiring the division of the Upper Merthyr Tydvil registration district into two; and whether, as this would be a great convenience to a large number of persons in this very scattered district and as the fees and emoluments received by the late registrar would amply suffice to pay two officials, he will recommend to the Registrar-General the sub-division of the district in question?

I have been in communication with the Registrar-General on the subject of the hon. Member's question, and am informed that he gave the Guardians' proposed scheme for the sub-division of Upper Merthyr Tydvil Sub-district, and all the representations made to him in regard to it, his careful consideration, but was unable to discover any sufficient reason for interfering with the existing arrangement, which was adopted so recently as 1905, and which has worked successfully and without complaint up to the present date. The Registrar-General further states that it has been found from long experience that an urban sub-district of about the same number of inhabitants and similar area is usually better served by one registrar giving the whole, or the greater portion, of his time to the work than by the same area divided into two sub-districts having smaller populations, the registrars of which would, as a rule, give less facilities for registration. The Registrar-General is unable for these and other reasons to alter his decision in the matter.

Old Age Pension Disqualification (Mrs. Eales, Bradford)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether Mrs. Eales, of Bradford, whose late husband received Poor Law relief in January, 1908, to the amount of 12s. altogether, and who, almost immediately afterwards, sold part of his furniture to repay the debt, has been disqualified from receiving an old age pension; and, if so, whether he proposes to promote legislation at an early date to deal with this and other cases of hardship under the Old Age Pensions Act?

The facts of this case appear to be as stated in the question. The repayment of the cost of poor relief does not, as I am advised, remove the disqualification for an old age pension caused by its receipt. The point will, no doubt, receive the consideration of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in connection with any amendment of the Act.

Mail Bag Canvas

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether important contracts have recently been arranged in respect of 52-inch mail-bag canvas; whether these contracts have been undertaken by British firms established in the United Kingdom; whether any provision has been made in these contracts to ensure that the canvas shall be manufactured in the United Kingdom; and whether, if not manufactured within the United Kingdom, he has taken steps to ensure the application of the fair wages clause?

Contracts have recently been made for the supply of 728,000 yards of 52-inch mail-bag canvas. The contract for 48,000 yards—about one-fifteenth part of the whole—was given to a foreign firm. The remainder of the contracts—680,000 yards —have gone to British firms. The contracts contain no condition as to the canvas being manufactured in the United Kingdom. They contain the usual clause as to fair wages, and no question has yet come before me as to its enforcement.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether 600,000 yards were manufactured in the United Kingdom?

I cannot give an answer to that question because the contracts did not come before me personally. They were made under an arrangement made by one of my predecessors.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in the past, this canvas has not been manufactured at home in Scotland?

The arrangement was made in 1902, and the present arrangement was in force when my hon. Friend was at the Home Office.

Shirt Makers

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the factory inspector of the district has made any report with reference to Messrs. Harborow, shirt makers, Westminster; whether this firm keep their young women and girls in the workrooms from 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. without allowing them to leave the premises for meals or recreation; and what action, if any, he proposes to take in the matter.

I have had inquiry made into this matter. It appears that a rule is posted in the works to the effect that no employé is to leave the premises during the day without permission. The workers, however, are not kept in the workrooms. The firm have provided for their use three mess-rooms, which are well warmed and lighted, and a kitchen, in which the workers' food is cooked. No charge is made to the workers for these facilities. Some of the workers who live in the neighbourhood are allowed to go home to dinner each day, and permission is frequently given to other workers. There is no requirement in the Factory Act that workers are to be allowed to leave the factory or workshop premises during the meal intervals, but the firm have agreed, on the inspector discussing the question with them, to withdraw the rule.

Welsh Church Commission

I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Report of the Welsh Church Commission may be expected?

I am informed by the Chairman that he has no reason to suppose that the consideration of the draft report, which is now proceeding, will occupy any great time if the sittings take place continuously, as he hopes they will.

Motor Car Prosecutions (Police Evidence)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. C. H. Palethorpe, who was fined £5 on 26th February by the justices of the peace of King's Heath, near Birmingham, for driving to the danger of the public in High-street, Selly Oak, and to the character of the evidence on which he was convicted, and to the practice which appears to prevail in many courts of accepting police evidence and ignoring that given by civil witnesses; and whether, as it is known that certain inspectors of police have obtained their promotion by the number of convictions and the amount of fines obtained, and having regard to the prejudice which prevails against motorists, he will consider the advisability of making all fines inflicted on motorists payable to some central general fund, instead of the proceeds, as at present, going to the County Fund?

I have made inquiry in the case referred to, and I am informed that, besides three police officers, there was a fourth witness, not a police officer, who gave evidence for the prosecution, and that the defendant admitted driving a motor-car at a speed of 15 to 18 miles an hour in a street where, in the unanimous opinion of the magistrates who heard the evidence, a high rate of speed was dangerous to the public. As regards the latter part of my hon. Friend's question, I do not believe any police authority has given, Or would give, an officer promotion on such grounds as are suggested, and I see no sufficient reason for altering, in respect of motorists, the general law relating to the application of fines imposed by courts of summary jurisdiction.

Income Tax (Schedule B)

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state how many persons paid income tax under Schedule B in the financial year 1907–8?

The number of persons who paid income tax under Schedule B in the financial year 1907–8 is not known, but I am causing to be printed with the Votes a statement which shows the numbers of separate properties dealt with under Schedule B and of assessments under that schedule.

Old Age Pension (Mr. J. Heaney, Enniskillen)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland why Mr. James Heaney, Market Street, Enniskillen, was refused an old age pension; whether he is aware that Mr. Heaney, through his solicitor, Mr. Cooper, of Enniskillen, appealed against refusal of a pension, and neither he nor his solicitor had any notice of any hearing of the appeal, but were merely informed it was rejected; and was the decision on appeal arrived at without giving the appellant an opportunity of putting forward his case to show that he was over 70, and of means so small as to entitle him to a pension?

The local pension committee decided that the claimant was not entitled to a pension, and the Local Government Board confirmed this decision on appeal, considering that, on the statement submitted by his solicitor, his means exceeded the statutory limit. The Board decide appeals upon written, and not upon oral, evidence.

Vaccination Prosecution (Mr. P. Irvine)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Francis Irvine, of Edenmore, Tempo, Ireland, was fined under the Irish Public Health Act on 19th February for refusing to have his children vaccinated; whether an order to vaccinate the children had previously been made in spite of the fact that no notice had been served on the defendant, as required by Section 147 of the Public Health Act; whether Irvine has already been fined under the Irish Vaccination Act; and whether the Government intend to introduce a Bill shortly to give Irish conscientious objectors the same facilities for avoiding prosecution as have been granted to Englishmen, Welshmen, and Scotchmen?

In December last the guardians' solicitor obtained an Order at Petty Sessions under section 147 of the Public Health Act to compel Mr. Francis Irvine to have his two children vaccinated within a month. The Local Government Board have no means of knowing whether notice had previously been served on him. That was a point for the consideration of the magistrates. Having failed to comply with the magistrates' Order, Mr. Irvine was fined 2s. 6d. and 5s. costs at Petty Sessions on 19th February, as stated. I am informed that legal proceedings are usually instituted against a defaulter under the Vaccination Acts before steps are taken under Section 147 of the Public Health Act, and this course was presumably followed in the present case. The number of conscientious objectors to vaccination in Ireland is very small, and they are not, I understand, generally subjected by guardians to repeated prosecutions. I cannot undertake to introduce legislation on the subject.

Pension Committees (Census Office)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that inconvenience is caused to pension committees by the action of the Census Office in withholding information as to the ages of claimants for old age pensions; and can he state when the required information will be sent?

It is presumed that the question refers to the Irish Public Record Office, in which the Census Returns for 1831 and 1841 are preserved. The Deputy-Keeper of the Records informs me that these Returns are largely used as evidence of age in connection with old age pensions both by claimants and by Inland Revenue, and that no information in reference to them has been withheld. It necessarily takes some little time to reply to the numerous applications on the subject. The number of such applications has been about 16,000, in addition to some 60,000 cases examined by the Inland Revenue officers working in the Record Office.

Kilmurry School House (Applications for Grant)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, is he aware that for a long time past the Rev. Father Hanly, parish priest of Cahirconlish, and the people of the townlands of Castle-erkine, Meagh, and Kilmurry, very populous districts, have been applying for grants to improve the schoolhouse in Kilmurry, but without success; that some time since an engineer came down, probably from Dublin, to report on the matter, which he did unfavourably, and that under the circumstances as presented to him he could scarcely have done otherwise; is he aware that the engineer sent no intimation of his coming to Father Hanly, the manager, nor to any other person; is he aware that a Mr. Bateman, a farmer owning the lands surrounding the schoolhouse, is prepared to give any amount of land to be required for extension of buildings and offices, and that the parents of the children are prepared to put new windows in the school-house, a new floor, a new ceiling, a door at south side, and all at their own private expense, and are certain that the average attendance daily in the event of the appointment of a new teacher instead of being under 35 will be considerably over it; is he aware that none of the suggestions offered of sending school children four miles to either Cahirline or Cahirconlish on vehicles would suit as, owing to the fact that Cahirconlish being within six miles of Limerick city, the public roads are continually overrun with motor-cars and milk vans; and will he see that the authorities of the National Board of Education continue the grants for the school, appoint a new teacher, and see to the other requirements in connection with the maintenance of the school in Kilmurry?

The Commissioners of National Education inform me that Father Hanly applied to them in 1907 for a grant towards the improvement of Kilmurry schoolhouse. The Commissioners asked the Board of Works for a report and an estimate of the cost of certain improve- ments. There did not appear to be any need for the presence of the manager at the inspection of the building, and the Board did not therefore inform him of the date of their officer's visit. The school-house was found to be too dilapidated and insanitary to be worth repairing, and the Commissioners were consequently unable to entertain Father Hanly's application. They have no information as to Mr. Bateman's offer. A statement that the parents of the children were willing to carry out the improvements mentioned in the question was embodied in a memorial received by the Commissioners from the manager and the inhabitants of the district. The question of continuing grants to Kilmurry school, which has been inoperative for some time, has been carefully considered, but in view of the small number of pupils for whom it is required, the Commissioners are of opinion that it will be best to send such of the children as are not within easy walking distance of other schools by covered van to the new school at Caherconlish. The Commissioners have intimated to the manager that they are prepared to consider the question of providing funds for this purpose. They do not anticipate any danger to the children from the traffic on the public road.

Public Education (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can explain the purposes for which the increased amounts for public education in Ireland, under Sub-head E in the Civil Service Estimates for 1909–10, are required; and what circumstances have caused the increases referred to?

The net increase in the Estimates for Public Education in Ireland for 1909–10 under Sub-head E is £74,578. Of this £58,420 is the additional provision under this Vote in lieu of the grants for salaries of assistant teachers and junior assistant mistresses, which were expected from the Ireland Development Grant, but. owing to the circumstances of that Grant, will not become available for 1909–10. The balance of the £74,578 is made up of the net automatic increases for the expenses of national schools, including the salaries of teachers of all classes.

War Department (Pensions for Writers)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state the reason why writers employed in the War Department at Woolwich and Pimlico do not enjoy pension privileges; what would be the annual cost of providing this class, with a pension; and whether he will approach the Treasury with a view to obtaining pensions for this deserving class of public servants?

The question of the grant of pensions to writers has been thoroughly considered. It was held that the grant of pension rights should be restricted in the case of Army Departments outside the War Office to the supervising classes. The cost of providing pensions for writers has not been calculated. I am afraid that I cannot undertake to move further in the matter.

New Howitzer

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the new howitzer is constructed according to the specifications originally issued by the War Office; if not, whether the specifications were changed before it was adopted; and whether it is a gun of German design and manufacture?

As the patterns made according to the original specifications were unsatisfactory, revised specifications were issued, and the new howitzer is constructed in conformity with them. The howitzer adopted is to Coventry Ordnance Works design, and it is manufactured by that firm.

Ex-Soldiers and Reservists

asked the Secretary of State for War whether any decision as to the part to be taken by county associations in obtaining employment for ex-soldiers and reservists has been arrived at?

The House will remember that under clause 2 of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act one of the duties put on the county associations is the care of reservists and discharged soldiers. Movements have been made to get the associations to undertake that work at once, but it was considered that, as they had a great amount of work still to do in connection with their Territorial Force duties, and that the work naturally took so much time and energy, it was unfair to put this extra labour upon them at the present time. There is, therefore, no very near prospect of transferring to the county associations the work which has been so efficiently done by the voluntary associations who look after the employment of reservists and discharged soldiers, and I may add that the subscriptions which have hitherto so generously been given to the voluntary associations are just as much needed as ever.

Territorial Recruits (Sunday Training)

asked the Secretary for War if his permission had been given for the training of recruits for the Territorial Army on Sundays?

asked the Secretary for War if his attention had been called to the fact that the men of the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) are ordered to parade at Walbrook on Sunday, 21st March, and then to proceed from there to Epping Forest, for a day's training; if he is aware that many men identified with the Territorial Army are engaged in Sunday-school work, and seriously object on conscientious grounds to spending the Sabbath in military training; and whether his sanction has been given to this parade?

I have never, so far as I can recall, been asked for permission to train recruits on Sundays, and I have not sanctioned orders for such training; but if my hon. Friend is referring to the particular case mentioned in the second question, I have to say that the order respecting the parade mentioned has been cancelled.

Territorial Forces (Clothing Contracts)

asked the Secretary for War whether, in view of the fact that the clothing for the Territorial Forces is made in the homes of the work-people, where cases of measles and chicken-pox are not uncommon and are not reported to the authorities, he will advise the county associations to enforce the provision in War Office contracts that all clothing shall be made in the factory?

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave the hon. Member on this subject on the 8th inst.

Fort Matilda (Housing of Workers)

asked the Secretary for War, if any, and, if so, what, arrangements are being made to house the workmen who will be transferred from Woolwich to the new torpedo works at Fort Matilda; and whether a deputation of the workers who have visited the housing accommodation now provided on the spot have expressed discontent with the prevailing tenement system and have also expressed a desire for the provision of cottage homes?

That question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty.

Garrisons in Time of War

asked the Secretary for War what is the number of troops which the Army Council have decided to be necessary to garrison our arsenals and other necessary places in the event of war with a great Power?

I must decline to furnish this information. It is neither customary nor to the public interest to publish the figures referred to in the question.

Territorial Army and Civil Power

asked the Secretary for War whether the men of the Territorial Army can be used in any way as an armed or disciplined force to aid the civil power to put down strikes or any kind of disturbances; and, if so, would refusal mean liability to trial by court martial?

The Territorial soldier can be called upon to aid the civil power only when he is under military law on the occasions set forth in Section 176 (6A) of the Army Act. A Territorial soldier when under military law who disobeys the lawful order of his commanding officer would be liable to trial by court martial. The hon. Member must be well aware from the full explanation I have given to the House on the subject that the Territorial force cannot be called out or embodied in whole or in part in aid of the civil power for the purpose of putting down riots or disturbances.

Battleship Construction (Ministers' Powers)

I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty a question of which I have given him private notice, namely, in what form does he intend to ask the approval of the House for the proposal to entrust Ministers with powers to make provision for the rapid construction of four additional battleships, to be laid down on 1st March, 1910, and for the collection of guns, gun-mountings, and other war materials as embodied in this Memorandum?

If my hon. Friend will be so good as to allow me to proceed with my statement, he will find all the information necessary to answer his question.

With great respect, it is very hard to follow a long statement that may extend over several hours. I do not wish to press my right hon. Friend to give us an answer, but at the same time, if he would give the answer, it would be very convenient for many hon. Members.

Strangers' Galleries (Admission of Ladies)

I beg leave, Mr. Speaker, to ask you a question, of which I have given you private notice, whether, in view of the deep interest taken by women in the important debate, on the Bill to be introduced by the hon. Member for the Eskdale division, on Friday next, and of the obvious injustice of all women being so long excluded from the Ladies' Gallery, on account of the misbehaviour of a few women, you will consent to a ballot being taken for the admission, on Friday, of the wives of Members of Parliament, under any conditions of personal responsibility of Members which you may seem fit to impose?

In reply to the hon. Member, I think I can hardly take upon myself to vary the Order which has already been issued in regard to the closing of the Galleries, without involving myself in very considerable difficulties. I should have to distinguish as to what Bills the ladies take an interest in, and as to which Amendments they prefer, and I should also have to consider the domestic arrangements of hon. Members. To follow the suggestion of the hon. Member would be to give an undue preference to those who are happily married.

Notices of Motion

gave notice that on this day fortnight he will call attention to the divergence of opinion among Cabinet Ministers and move a Resolution.

gave notice that on this day fortnight he would call attention to the administration of the Small Holdings Act and move a Resolution.

gave notice that on this day fortnight he would call attention to the taxation of food and move a Resolution.

Presentation of Bills

The following Bills were presented and read a first time:—

Mr. CHIOZZA MONEY—Bill to provide for the establishment of compulsory Continuation Schools in England and Wales, and to amend the Education Acts, 1870 to 1902, in respect of the age of compulsory school attendance. (To be read a second time 23rd April.)

Mr. HODGE—Bill to provide for the total abolition of Vivisection. (To be read a second time 28th May.)

Mr. ROBINSON—Bill to amend the Law with respect to the grant or renewal of Licences for the sale of beer, wine, and spirits to be consumed off the premises. (To be read a second time 30th March.)

Mr. ROBINSON—Bill to amend The Education (England and Wales) Act; 1902. (To be read a second time 30th March.)

Mr. HOBHOUSE—Bill to remove the statutory limitation on the Salary of the President of the Board of Trade.

Mr. LLOYD MORGAN—Bill to provide for the payment of expenses of Jurors attending assizes and quarter sessions in England and Wales. (To be read a second time 30th April.)

Daylight Saving Bill (Select Committee)

moved:— "That the Select Committee on the Daylight Saving Bill do consist of Mr. Bennett, Mr. Haworth, Mr. Hayden, Colonel Sir Ivor Herbert, Mr. Kavanagh, Mr. Macpherson, Sir Philip Magnus, Captain MorrisonBell, Mr. Nicholls, Sir Henry Norman, Mr. Robert Pearce, Major Renton, Sir Benjamin Stone, Mr. Tomkinson, and Mr. Dundas White.

"That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.

"That five be the quorum."

Motion agreed to.

Supply

Navy Estimates, 1909–10

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed: "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."

The Estimates which I have to present to Parliament amount to £35,142,700, an increase of £2,823,200 over the Estimates of the current year. For the first time for many years there will be no expenditure on loans under the Naval Works Loans Act. On the other hand, the charge for annuities in repayment of loans amounts to no less than £1,330,356. From the statement which has been published with the Estimates, a calculation has been made, covering a period of nine years, of the net expenditure on Navy Votes, after deducting the loan charges, and to this figure has been added the expenditure on loans. The result shows that the estimated expenditure on this basis for the next financial year is less than in 1903–4 by £4,656,000, and less than the expenditure in 1904–5 by £5,816,000. The increase for the current year on that basis is £1,809,000. A further observation has to be made on the apparent increase of expenditure. For some years surplus stocks have been utilised without replacement and to that extent the Estimates have been relieved for the time being. In the current year this relief amounted to £500,000. In 1909–10 the value of stocks which could be utilised under similar conditions amounted to £156,000, thus causing an addition to the cash provision in the Estimates of £344,000. There are, moreover, certain automatic increases of the pay Estimates—Votes 1, 13, and 14, over which the Board of Admiralty have no control. These amount in 1909–10 to £142,000. The total of these two items amounts to £486,000, and if this be deducted from the figure of £1,809,000, which I have shown is the increase for the current year, after making allowance for loan expenditure and loan charges, the resultant increase of controllable expenditure is reduced to £1,323,000. After making all allowances, distinguishing as I have done between the true and the apparent expenditure of the current year, I should be the first to admit that the present Estimates are such as require the strongest justification before Parliament should be asked to Vote them.

During the last few weeks a number of friends of the Government have reminded me, anticipating, I suppose, the increase of the Vote next year, that the policy of the present Government has been declared to be one of Peace, Retrenchment, and Reform. I agree most cordially with that policy, and I can well understand that any addition to the Naval expenditure may be viewed with the gravest alarm by many persons whose political convictions I share, and whose good opinion I greatly value. As I have said, the Estimates for 1909–10 show an increase of £2,823,000 over those of the current financial year. They further give notice to Parliament that the Government recognise the existence of certain circumstances which may later in the year call upon them to sanction the ordering of the component parts of four more battleships beyond the four for which alone money provision is made in the Estimates. Such proposals cannot fail to be regarded as of exceptional gravity from the financial point of view; a novel but actual and potential programme of shipbuilding which not only throws an additional charge on the Estimates for the coming financial year, but necessarily entails further increase in the year 1910–11. No one can suppose that the present Government have made themselves responsible for Estimates on such a scale with a light heart. If I may speak of myself for a moment, it would be to say that there is no man in this House who is more earnestly desirous of retrenchment in expenditure on armaments than I am, or more reluctant to have forced upon him by the circumstances of the time so burdensome a programme. My first experience of official life was at the Treasury. In that admirable Department I learned the practice and the theory of economy. If I find myself in a situation which is above my pretensions, I recognise, I believe, that I owe it to the fact that I am known to adhere to the principles which I learned in my first office. But there are occasions when even the most determined economist is willing to make a sacrifice.

The safety of the Empire stands above all other considerations. No matter what the cost, the safety of the country must be assured. As the House will have already seen in the statement which has been furnished with the Estimates, the particular item of increase in 1909–10 is the Vote for new construction. Financial provision is made for laying down two large battleships in July and two more in November. This, of itself, without regard to the further contingent order of which I have spoken, is already a great advance upon the programme which was accepted last year by the House of Commons. What has happened in the interval to lead to such an increase of the scheme of shipbuilding that was accepted a year ago by Parliament as adequate, proposed with general acceptance by this Government? I will answer this question in a moment, but before I do so, let me make one general observation on which I do not think there can be any disagreement. It will be regarded as axiomatic that our island position, the extent and dispersion of our Empire, and the magnitude of our trade oblige us, so long as we are equal to the task, to maintain a Navy adequate in strength to ensure our shores from invasion, our Empire from hostile attempts, and our trade from destruction in war. It follows from this that we cannot determine in advance any definite limits to our Navy. These limits for us must be fixed by the progress of foreign Powers. We cannot take stock of our own Navy and measure our requirements except in relation to the strength of foreign navies. I am, therefore, obliged to refer to foreign countries in making estimates of our naval requirements. Several of the Powers are rapidly developing their naval strength at this moment, but none at the pace comparable with that of Germany.

In what I have to say now I select that Power as the standard by which to measure our own requirements. The House will understand that I do so only for what may be called arithmetical purposes, without presuming upon the expression of any feeling or opinion of my own unless it be one of respectful admiration for administrative and professional efficiency. In the first place, I take for the purpose of my comparison the newest types of battleships and cruisers only. I will deal afterwards with the earlier types of ships, and I will endeavour to lay before the House the view of the Board of Admiralty with regard to the value of these ships in the computation of relative warlike strength in 1912 and later years, for that is the period which we have to bear in mind when considering our present programme. When the Estimates were presented to Parliament a year ago we had seven battleships of the "Dreadnought" class and three cruisers of the "Invincible" class, either afloat or in course of construction. The whole of these were due for completion by the end of 1910. Germany at that time was building four "Dreadnoughts" and one "Invincible," of which two "Dreadnoughts" were expected to be completed by the end of this year, and the remaining, three ships in the autumn of 1910. Thus we had at that time a superiority in this class of ships of ten to five in course of construction, with the additional advantage that the whole of ours were expected to be completed some months in advance of the last three of the German ships. The new German Fleet Bill had by that time become law, and according to our interpretation of its provisions three "Dreadnoughts" and one "Invincible" would be laid down in the course of the year 1908–9. The financial provisions of the law were such as to lead us to the opinion that no work would be commenced on these four ships of the 1908–9 programme until August last year, and that they would not be completed until February, 1911. This time last year, .therefore, we had to contemplate five German ships under construction, three of which would be completed in the autumn of 1910, and four more ships to be commenced in August, 1908, and commissioned in February, 1911.

In view of this state of facts the Government and the House of Commons last year approved the programme of two large ships to be laid down at such time as would give to this country a total of 12 of these new ships as against a possible completed total of nine. The period which was then in contemplation, of course, was the spring of 1911. In the face of last year's programme no one could with any fairness charge this Government with having started on a race of competitive armaments. By example as well as by precept we sought to check the rapid rate of construction. We failed. Whatever we may have to do now it cannot be said that the present Government are setting the pace in construction.

Such, then, was our actual state of naval construction last year, and such was our anticipation, founded upon such forecasts as we were in a position to make, of the probable construction of foreign countries. The difficulty in which the Government finds itself placed at this moment is that we do not know, as we thought we did, the rate at which German construction is taking place. We know that the Germans have a law which, when all the ships under it are completed, will give them a Navy more powerful than any at present in existence. We do not know the rate at which the provisions of this law are to be carried into execution. We anticipated that work on the 1908–9 programme would begin on four ships in August, 1908. The preparation and collection of materials began some months earlier. We now expect these ships to be completed, not in February, 1911, but in the autumn of 1910. I am informed, moreover, that the collection of materials, and the manufacture of armament, guns, and mountings, have already begun for four more ships, which, according to the Navy law, belong to the programme of 1909–10, and we have to take stock of a new situation, in which we reckon that not nine, but 13, ships may be completed in 1911, and in 1912 such further ships, if any, as may be begun in the course of the next financial year or laid down in April, 1910.

I think we may stop here to pay a tribute to the extraordinary growth in the power of constructing ships of the largest size in Germany. Two years ago, I believe, there were in that country, with the possible exception of one or two ships in private yards, no slips capable of carrying a "Dreadnought." To-day they have no fewer than 14 of such slips, and three more are under construction. What is true of the ships is true also of the guns, armour, and mountings. Two years ago, anyone familiar with the capacity of Krupp's and other great German firms would have ridiculed the possibility of their undertaking to supply the component parts of eight battleships in one year. To-day this productive power is a realised fact. It will tax the resources of our own great firms if we are to retain supremacy in rapidity and volume of construction.

Having said so much of foreign naval development, I turn to our own programme of construction. We shall have in March, 1911, eight completed "Dreadnoughts" and four "Invincibles." We propose to lay down two more "Dreadnoughts" in July of this year, and the terms of the contracts will provide that these shall be completed in July, 1911. We reckon the period of construction of these large ships as two years, but it is impossible to rely upon ships of this type being delivered to time unless considerable notice, prior to the laying of the keel, is given to the contractors who supply some of the equipment of the ships and unless orders are given for materials. The possible output of guns, gun mountings, and armour is less than the possible output of shipbuilding and machinery. The reason is obvious. One set of materials are materials of war only and the others are used alike in peace and war. To ensure completion by July, 1911, orders for the special parts will be given at once if the House approves of these Estimates. Two more ships will be laid down in November of this year, to be completed in 1911, and our total strength of "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles" will then stand in that year at twelve of the former and four of the latter. The date however, which we have to bear in mind, as that up to which the present programme must provide, is April, 1912. We shall in the course of 1911 have 16 of these modern ships as against the 13 for which Germany is already making provision. The German law provides for four more ships to be laid down in 1910–11. If the construction of these ships were to be accelerated I understand the four ships of the 1909–10 programme would be completed by April, 1912, and at that date Germany would have 17 "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles." But even if no acceleration takes place before April, 1910, this number would be completed in the autumn of 1912. This is a contingency which the Government have to take into account. We cannot afford to run risks. If we are to be sure of retaining superiority in this, by far the most powerful type of battleships, the Board of Admiralty must be in a position, if the necessity arises, to give orders for guns, gun-mountings, and armour, and for materials at such a time and to such an amount as will enable them to obtain delivery of four more large armoured ships by March, 1912. We shall be prepared to meet the contingency of Germany having 17 of these ships in the spring of 1912 by our having 20, and we can only meet that contingency if the Government are empowered by Parliament to give the necessary orders in the course of the present financial year.

I can well imagine that this method of calculating in "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles" alone may seem unsatisfactory and even unfair to many persons. What has become of the "Lord Nelsons," the "King Edwards," the "Duncans," the "Formidables," and the earlier battleships on which our naval superiority has been so confidently rested, and is no account to be taken of our powerful fleet of armoured cruisers, to the number, all told, of no less than 35? Yes, the Board of Admiralty have not forgotten those ships. The "Dreadnought" has not rendered them obsolete, and many of them would give a good account of themselves in the line of battle for many years to come. But though they have not been rendered obsolete their life has been shortened. To determine the value of a battleship in relation to the value of ships of the newer and better type is a problem of the same kind as that which confronts the manufacturer whose plant is getting out of date and who has to determine the precise moment when it would pay him best to scrap his old machinery and to lay down new.

Every new improvement and new invention in machinery and every improvement in the method of construction shortens the life of a manufacturer's plant. If he is to compete successfully with his rivals he must keep his machinery up to date. Battleships must be regarded as machines of which the output is fighting capacity. All improvements in the designs of ships which increase their fighting capacity necessarily shorten the life of the earlier battleships, just as in the case of any other machinery. The greater the value of the improvements the sooner the earlier machines become obsolete. Although the upkeep of a "Dreadnought" costs little, if anything, more than the upkeep of the earlier types of battleships, its fighting capacity is greatly superior; and it follows that the advent of this new and improved machine has materially curtailed the profitable life of our previously existing fleet. There is, however, a further consideration to be borne in mind. As the years go by the scrapping of older ships is inevitable for another reason. I have seen many forecasts recently of what our battle fleet strength would be in 1912. The framers of these forecasts assume that we may have 16 "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles" in commission in that year, or 12 more than we have at the present moment. To these 16 they have added the whole of our existing fleet of battleships, and they have produced a startling total whether you reckon numbers or tonnage. Those who quite naturally and properly regard this vista of calculated increase with alarm may be reassured by the reminder that if 12 more "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles" are to be in commission by 1912, then 12 of the larger ships which we have at present must have passed out of commission. The only condition on which they could all be retained in the fleet at the same time is by greatly increasing our personnel and our dockyards at an expense which would be truly staggering, and the result of which in fighting capacity would not be worth the cost. We have, then, in making our comparisons for 1912, to reckon only such ships as will then be on the active list.

The House will not expect me to go through our ships in detail, nor could I attempt to do so. Suffice it to say that on the present scale of our Navy our numerical strength in battleships capable of being placed in the fighting line, not including "Invincibles," is roughly about fifty, consisting of fully-commissioned and nucleus crew ships, ships in the special reserve list with no more than 70 men on board, and ships in dockyard hands. With this limit to our total numbers it is obviously essential that we should not fall behind in the most powerful type of battleship. There will come a day when by an almost automatic process all ships of an earlier type than the "Dreadnought" will be relegated to the scrap heap. The maintenance of our superiority then will depend upon our superiority in "Dreadnoughts" alone. I have given reasons for believing that the German power of constructing this particular type of ship is at this time almost if not fully equal to our own, owing to their rapid development during the last 18 months; and we cannot be sure of retaining our superiority of the sea if we ever allow ourselves to fall behind in this newest and best class of ship.

I pass now to the consideration of our armoured cruisers other than "Invincibles." In this type of vessel we have a great superiority both in numbers and in tonnage. What is the purpose of these vessels? To what extent could we concentrate them in home waters? Clearly we cannot take out the number of ships in the Navy, add them all together, and reckon the total tonnage without having some regard to the duties which the Navy is called on to perform. We maintain squadrons in Chinese, Australian, South African, and East Indian waters. There is another squadron, a cruiser squadron, always kept available for service in the Atlantic. If any reduction were proposed in the ships employed on these services representations would be immediately made to the Board of Admiralty by the Foreign Office, the India Office, and every great Chamber of Commerce in the country. The total of these duties, the due performance of which is a concomitant of empire, absorbs permanently a large number of our cruisers. If unhappily we were to be engaged in war we could not recall all these ships engaged in foreign service back to home waters. In conceivable circumstances we might even have to increase the numbers on foreign service to insure the protection of our great trade in goods. Even though we retained full command of the sea in the home waters "even temporary interference with our foreign trade would greatly distress us. We have indeed a great superiority over any foreign Power both in armoured and protected cruisers; but this is a condition imposed upon us by the obligations of Empire and our imperative need to keep open the highway of the sea. There is no nation in the world which has anything like the same dependence on foreign trade that we have. Its loss to us would be a vital blow. To any other nation it would be merely an inconvenience. Our commerce if unprotected in war in remote seas would be open to attack by foreign armed merchant vessels specially commissioned for the purpose as ships of war. Victory at sea in home waters would not necessarily protect our foreign trade nor would it necessarily bring the war to a close. On the other hand defeat in the home waters would certainly end the war and would be the surest means of protecting the antagonist's foreign trade. I make these observations merely by way of a brief explanation of our special need of cruisers and to show that calculations of battle strength in which they are all reckoned as available in home waters are based on an incomplete appreciation of their true functions.

I pass now to matters which may be regarded as less exciting and over which I will not detain the House long. First of all let me make mention of the rest of the programme of the year. We propose to lay down six cruisers, of which four will be "Bristols" and two "Bellonas." The four "Bristols" will be contract ships ordered in November to be completed within twenty-one months. The two "Bellonas" will be laid down in Pembroke dockyard, one in April in this year and the other in September. They will also be completed in twenty-one months. These cruisers will be capable of performing the Fleet duties which are carried out by scouts and by second and third class cruisers. They will have good accommodation, and such sea-keeping qualities and radius of action as will enable them to be employed on distant service. It is proposed to lay down further 20 destroyers, the designs for which are now under consideration. Particular attention will be paid to their sea-going qualities. They are not as large as some of the ocean - going destroyers, but they will have much the same capacity as regards sea-going requirements.' The destroyers will be ordered by contract in November and will be completed in 20 months. The vote for submarines is further continued, and the sum of £500,000 is proposed to be taken on this account.

The works vote for the coming year shows. a heavy increase amounting to £609,600. I have only to remind the House that two great works—one is Rosyth and the other Portsmouth Lock—are being paid for out of that Vote. Another cause of the heavy Vote on which I should otherwise be able to make some economies is that we are now completing out of the Estimates certain of the loans works for which full monetary provision is not made under the Naval Works Act. Under this head alone the sum of £641,700 has to be found. There is a further work being undertaken at Loch Long in the establishment of a torpedo range, and at Greenock, where a torpedo factory is being built in close proximity to the torpedo range at Loch Long. On the subject of Rosyth I think that the House may be interested to hear that in the opinion of the Board of Admiralty the contract has now been satisfactorily settled. The terms are that the work is to be completed in seven years, but a substantial bonus is given for every week in which the work is completed in advance of the seven years. We have strong hopes, in fact, that the contract will be completed in a little over six years. The design of Rosyth is portion of a larger design which it is not now proposed to carry into execution. I think the House will agree that it is most desirable when we undertake work of this kind, that of building a new naval base, that while not committing ourselves to anything beyond the actual requirements of the moment we should anticipate a possible future in which it might be found desirable to extend Rosyth to a naval base of the strength of Portsmouth or Devonport. I think I may be permitted to congratulate the late Board of Admiralty upon the fact that in making their plans for Rosyth they took the largest possible view of what could be needed, and out of that whole extracted such part as would be immediately required. It is an integral part of the whole, but it is complete in itself. The contract we have now let is for that smaller but complete part of the whole design, and it will give us when the works are executed the largest basin which we have in our naval ports. Those are the chief works which will be undertaken under this contract. The works in connection with the yards, that is to say, the repairing shops, are not being built under the contract which is now being let. But afterwards a new contract will be made in respect of them, and the whole will be completed as required, on the termination of the contract which has already been let.

I have this winter had an opportunity of visiting one of our foreign ports on which we have spent a considerable sum of money out of loans. I am bound to say that after three days' careful investigation of the works at Malta, I was confirmed in the view which I have held for some years that, whatever the necessities or the pressure of the moment may be, it is far better to pay for your works as you go along, and not pay for them out of loans. The Malta works, I readily admit, are admirable of their kind, and there is no doubt they are built with a view to providing for emergencies which might have arisen, but which are regarded as improbable at the present time. But even with regard to all emergencies, I venture to say that if the Malta improvements had been placed upon the Estimates, and not been built out of loans as great efficiency would have been produced at considerably less cost.

From Malta I passed, by the courtesy of the Resident-General to Tunis and the Admiral Superintendent, to an inspection of the French, yard newly built at Bizerta. That yard was built not out of loans, but out of the annual Votes. There I found that every effort had been made to produce the best result with the least money, and I am bound to say that the effect upon me was that at Bizerta we have got a model of what can be done by forethought with a great regard to economy. I certainly do not think the lessons of Malta or Bizerta will be lost upon any of those who had the opportunity of seeing those stations. I am sure of this, that, in our work at Rosyth, human nature being what it is, whether that human nature is at the Board of Admiralty or anywhere else, the fact that we are bound to go to Parliament year by year for every penny we spend inevitably entails a more severe regard for economy than would be the case if we simply had to take the money out of loans.

With regard to floating docks, they have been strongly urged from many quarters upon the attention of the Board of Admiralty, and I may say that the Board are at this moment giving the most careful consideration to the subject, and inquiring fully into the possibilities of the matter. The difficulty which we have to face is that there is nothing in the Estimates for this service.

I am referring to those floating docks of the largest size. The difficulty about them is that the very great rise and fall of the tide renders their moorings extremely difficult to make, and consequently there have been two schools of thought with regard to the practicability of making use of this type of dock. As the House knows, they are vastly cheaper than the graving docks, and if a suitable site and moorings can be found there is no doubt that we should save considerably by making a much greater use of them than we do at the present time.

One word upon another matter which is referred to in the statement which I have published with the Estimates—I allude to the new distribution of the fleet. It is proposed now that the fleet in home waters shall consist of four divisions. The first division, which at the present time contains only two "Dreadnoughts," two "Lord Nelsons," and four armoured cruisers, will hereafter, as the new "Dreadnoughts" come into commission, be made up wholly of that class of ship. The first division will have as its base either Rosyth or Portland, as the needs of the moment determine. The second division will be homogeneous, including eight of the King Edward class, and alternately with the other division will have its base at Portland or Rosyth. Each division will have its cruisers squadron, and also its flotilla of destroyers. For the first time the nucleus-crew ships will be placed under a separate command, and will form the third division of the Home fleet. The fourth division of the Home fleet will consist of the ships in the special service list—that is to say, ships which only have 70 men on board. The third and fourth divisions will be under Vice-Admiral Neville, who will now have a distinct command in those ships, the whole operating as one fleet under the chief command of Admiral May, who will have the separate command as well of the first division of the fleet.

Not as part of the Home fleet, but working in co-operation with it, we shall now have the Atlantic fleet, with its new base at Dover. Hitherto that fleet has had its base at Berehaven and Gibraltar, the letter being used as the repairing yard, but the opening of Dover has allowed us to bring the Atlantic fleet closer into home waters, and its base will alternately be Berehaven and Dover. Thus we have in home waters twenty-two ships in full commission, and we have eight or nine— the number varying from time to time according to emergencies and the state of shipbuilding—nucleus-crew ships in commission, all of which would be ready for war at a few hours' notice. Behind this we have the fourth division, consisting of special service ships. This amalgamation and reorganisation of the Fleet has effected at one and the same time two results. In the first place we get a greater concentration of strength, and in the second place there is a transfer from fully-commissioned ships to the nucleus-crew division of some four battleships.

I do not know that there are any other matters upon which the House would wish me to say anything at this moment. Those hon. Members who have been so good as to look at the statement published with the Estimates of work will see detailed analyses of the changes in each Vote giving a full account of the work done in the course of the year. I conceive that hon. Members will find it more convenient to have these matters before them in print rather than rely upon a verbal explanation from me. I do not propose at this stage to go over the ground covered in those two statements. I have endeavoured to give in detail all the information which I could forecast as being likely to interest the House. If anything has been omitted I will endeavour to remedy that defect in the course of our debates.

Before I sit down there is one other matter to which I must refer for a moment. I do so reluctantly, because once again it is a comparison with the German Navy, but the necessity of dealing frankly with the House in case of Estimates of this character leaves me no alternative. Looking at the huge total, I can well understand any critic saying to me that whatever reasons I may give for this or that branch of expenditure, how comes it that the Estimates amount to such a large sum as £35,000,000, which is so greatly in excess of the German Estimates for the same period? My answer is, briefly, that in looking merely at totals we are not comparing like with like. Our Naval Votes have certain charges, such as interest on loans and sinking fund on loans, pension reserves, half-pay, and retired pay, which in Germany are charged to Civil Votes. Again, our scale of pay is suited to voluntary service, whilst in Germany, where service is compulsory, navy pay is at a far lower rate. Upon these items alone—that is to say, on pay and items charged to Civil Votes—the excess which our Estimates have to bear is no less than £9,000,000.

Again, our personnel is necessarily more numerous than that of any other Power, apart from the need of our superiority in home waters, by reason of the demands made upon us by foreign service, to which I have already alluded. Our victualling vote is consequently much higher, being close upon £1,750,000 in excess of Germany. To these charges have to be added the necessary cost of stores of all kinds other than victualling stores for our large subsidiary fleet on foreign service. From what I have said it will be recognised that there is a full and adequate explanation of the heavy total of our expenditure upon the Navy.

I venture to say, indeed, having regard to the great range of the responsibilities of the British Navy, and to the fact of its being a voluntary service, that no foreign Administration can show a better result in proportion to the money spent. I thank the House for having listened to me with so great attention.

I confess to the House that I have never risen on any occasion with a greater sense of the responsibility which attaches, both to the speaker to the House—if they will listen to me—or a greater sense of the immense effect on national destiny which may result from the decision that the House will take during the course of the next two or three days. There are many subjects on which we have to speak—whatever our convictions may be—with regard to which we feel that, if for the moment our arguments fall on unheeding ears, the time may come that they will receive more attention, and that the delays, necessarily incident to Government by discussion, really does no material injury to any great national interest, nor alters the course of national history. But the matter to which I mean to refer the House to-day is one which, it we decide wrongly, cannot be corrected in the future. The decision we make is a decision which is going to affect, adversely or favourably, the national destinies for the next three or four years, and from that decision there will be no appeal, however much we may wish to retrace our steps, should we next year, or even in six months, come to the conclusion that we have taken the wrong step. However much we may wish to retrieve those steps we cannot go back on them; the fatal decision will have been taken, and for the first time for many, many generations we shall be in a naval position which certainly is not in conformity, I believe, with the views of any party in this House—I look around with confidence to every party —which certainly we have never tolerated before, nor our forefathers for the last century or century and a half.

It is because I think the issue is of this vital national importance that I venture to intrude at once upon this debate. It is because I feel this is of vital importance that I mean to brush aside all the other great questions of the Naval Estimates this year which naturally and properly arise; that I mean to concentrate our gaze upon a single great issue, leaving to one side all other matters of legitimate controversy which must be dealt with before these Votes finally receive the assent of the House. It is for that reason that I forbear to take up the rather gratuitous challenge thrown down by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the comparative advantages of the system of loans and payment out of annual expenditure. If I did wish to take up that challenge I might ask whether it is not to the fact that the present Government have determined never to raise money for these works on loan that we owe the most unfortunate fact that the completion of Rosyth, which under the system of loans might have been, and would have been, begun three years ago, is only now settled between the Government, the contractor, and the Board of Admiralty? That question, and another question, which in the ordinary circumstances would raise the acutest controversy in this House, and on which the right hon. Gentleman said nothing whatever— I mean the amazing financial arrangements by which the House is asked in the Estimates to agree to ships being built on 1st April next year, the first day of the new financial year, without a single shilling being taken in the course of the present year, I allude to. Under ordinary circumstances, that novelty, that perfectly unjustifiable novelty, would I am sure, would have engaged the deep attention of financial experts on both sides. Again, I defer saying a single word on these matters; for, frankly, what I am concerned about is this: not how to get the money, how you get the money to get the necessary ships, but whether you are building the necessary ships at all. A far more important question than the niceties and proprieties of the financial arrangements—important as they are—important as they are always recognised as being in our discussion on the Estimates in this House—all that I put aside, and I simply ask the House to concentrate their attention upon the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech; that in which he told us quite truly that in comparing the fighting capacity of the warfleets you had to take primarily into account the new type of battleship, which, for convenience, I will call the "Dreadnought" type—without going into the "Invincible." He told us throughout that, in comparing the fighting efficiency of the ships, we must consider the "Dreadnought" type. Well, I ask him how we stand under the present programme, and at the present time in regard to comparative strength in the years 1910, 1911, and 1912, as compared with other nations? No, I am wrong in that last phrase. I do not mean to compare our strength with foreign nations. That I should do if I were dealing with the pledge of the Prime Minister with regard to the two-power standard. I regret to say we have reached the point when the matter of debate among us is not whether in respect to this particular class of ships we are maintaining the two-power standard, but whether we are maintaining a one-power standard! It is the one-power standard, the question of the one-power standard, that I address myself to; and that compels me to follow the example of the right hon. Gentleman, and frankly to state to the House that the Power I have to compare us with is Germany. I rejoice in that we are on the friendliest of terms with the Government of Germany. Nothing that I say, I am confident, will either cause, or tend to cause, the smallest friction, or illfeeling, between these two Powers. I do not suggest for an instant that Germany has gone beyond her legitimate rights in doing what she has done. My question is not whether Germany has done right or wrong, but whether Germany, having done what she has done, and doing what she is doing, we are taking the only course that is consistent with the maintenance of national safety.

I do not wish to weary the House with questions of history, but let me in a word remind the House of what has been our course in connection with this class of ship since the present Government came into office. In their first year of office they brought forward, at the end of March, the Estimates, prepared largely, I think entirely, by their predecessors. In these there was provision made for four "Dreadnoghts." The House assented to these Estimates in all the earlier stages. In July, at the very end of the Session, His Majesty's Government came down and told us that they were prepared to reduce the Estimates for these ships from four to three. We protested at the time. Our protests naturally enough were never considered by the majority. The Government told us not merely that they meant to reduce the four ships in the Estimates to three, but in view of The Hague Conference, and in order to show their bona fides in going into that Conference, they only proposed to build two in the following year, provided that they had some prospect of attaining a general reduction of armaments; and if they failed in that prospect they intended to make three—or at all events they did make three; they did lay down three.

The German Government took quite a different view of The Hague Conference from the British one. While the British Government were deliberately reducing their programme in the view, perfectly imaginary and illusory, of the general reduction of armaments, the German Government in the first place refused to assent to any such reduction, and in the second place logically and naturally occupied all the time that we expended in nursing these empty hopes, these vain expectations, in not only building ships and laying down ships, but what is of far more importance, making those enormous preparations, that immense expenditure upon plant, machinery, slips, and docks, which have put them, as the right hon. Gentleman himself admitted, in a position compared with us which no nation up to the present time has ever yet been. Instead, thus, of the four "Dreadnoughts" that were originally assented to in their first year of office they gave us three. Instead of four "Dreadnoughts" in their second year of office they gave us again three. Then came their third year of office, last year, and in spite of what had actually happened at The Hague Conference, in spite of what I should imagine they might have known about the immense development of German potential output, and of German output, they reduced that three to two. So that during three years of office, instead of having produced four in each year, they produced three the first year, three the second year, and two the third year. Then come to the debate of last year on the Estimates. We pointed out, my hon. Friends near me and I pointed out to the Government, the extraordinary state of peril in which we were likely to be in 1911. The debate took place just a year ago. I was followed by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, who perfectly apprehended the point we were endeavouring to make. He gave his own statement of the policy of the Government. He reminded us that the anticipation which I had made as to 1911 depended upon the Germans carrying out their own programme and being able to build as quickly as we did. He quite accurately laid down these as two principal conditions of the dangerous state which I had foreshadowed for 1911. He said—We quite recognise that if Germany does all this we must take some exceptional steps for dealing with the situation. And the last words of his very brief and very pregnant speech were these: "I will say this without the faintest hesitation, that if we find at that time" (that is, 1911, the year we are now dealing with) "that there is a probability—a reasonable probability—of the German programme being carried out in the way the paper figures suggest, we should deem it our duty to provide, and we should provide, not only for a sufficient number of ships, but for such a date for laying down those ships that at the end of 1911 the superiority of Germany, which the right hon. Gentleman foreshadows, would not be an actual fact. That is the policy of His Majesty's Government. It remains on record." There was therefore absolutely no question or doubt as to what the views of the right hon. Gentleman were at this time last year. There was no doubt left in the minds either of critics or of followers as to the policy he wished to carry out, and the problem before us is how far has he carried it out? How far does the programme now before the Government give us a reasonable hope that in the years to come at the end of 1910, the year with which I am going to begin, during 1911 and the first months of 1912, which is a period touched by the shipbuilding programme which we have had in the past and the shipbuilding programme now before us, the right hon. Gentleman's policy will be carried out? I am going to ask that of the House, and of the right hon. Gentleman, and I can assure him that I do not approach this question at all in any party spirit, but because conclusions have been forced upon me by a study of the figures.

I must lay down one hypothesis with regard to the time of shipbuilding. I shall assume that Germany and that we can build in two years. It is quite true that we do not build up to that time at present —that is to say, if you look back at all the more recent ships that have been launched you will find that they have taken never less than two years and three months, sometimes two years and five months. I have no doubt in the same way you would find that in German shipbuilding in the past, and possibly even, though less probably, German shipbuilding in the future, may take over two years. What I want to insist upon is that whatever unit of shipbuilding time you take you must take the same unit for both countries. There was a most happy period when this country was so far in advance of foreign rivals that we could safely wait to see the ship they laid down, and then we ourselves laid down some slightly superior specimen of the same type, confident that when the foreign ship was launched we should be able ourselves to launch a superior ship at the same moment. That happy period has gone. We have to admit that now in view of modern German organisation. It was the boast of the Minister of Marine in his statement to the Reichstag, and it is not an empty boast, that "We can build as fast as the English." I believe he said "faster," but there I hope he was over-sanguine. However, he said that they could build as fast as the English. Do not, therefore, let us lay the flattering unction to our souls that we any longer retain that industrial supremacy in these matters which enabled us to watch with serene philosophy the shipbuilding efforts of our rivals. I take two years both for Great Britain and for Germany. If you choose to add three months you must do so in both cases. Two years is a convenient time to take. May I remind the House in that connection that there were two things stated or suggested in the speech from which I have already quoted, made by the Prime Minister last year. He was sure of one thing, that we should build in two years, but he was doubtful about another, whether the Germans could carry out their programme. Observe how events falsify even the best prophecies. We have not built in two years. The Germans have not only carried out what the Prime Minister last year called their paper programme, but they have advanced on it by four or five months. When we are making forecasts for the future let us all remember this forecast made only 12 months ago, touching the most vital interests of the country—a forecast which I quite admit at the time I thought most plausible and probable, but which one 12 months has been sufficient to falsify against the interests of this country. I said the first date I should take would be December, 1910. On the two years basis of building we shall in December, 1910, as I calculate, have 10, and only 10, "Dreadnoughts." But the Germans at that date, as I calculate, will have 13. That assumes, of course, that I am right in stating—and I do not think I shall be contradicted—that the Germans anticipated their programme by four months. If you work that out, and assume that the German ships begun last November, in anticipation by five months of the ordinary date, are completed in two years, then you will find that I am not wrong in saying that in December, 1910, we shall have only 10 "Dreadnoughts" and the Germans will have 13. That danger period in which, according to my calculation, the ratio of British to German "Dreadnoughts'" is as 10 to 13, extends on the basis of two years' building from December, 1910, to the end of March, 1911. On 1st April, 1911, the Germans, as I understand it, will have only 13 and we shall have raised our number to 12. We should still, therefore, on 1st April, 1911, according to my calculation, be one less than the Germans, and that period of what I might call the 12 British to 13 Germans will last until July, 1911. Then we shall have 14, but in the meanwhile the Germans, if they build their four ships this year, in addition to the anticipated ships they laid down in November, they will have IV, as I understand. We should still have 14 in July, 1911, but the Germans would, as I make out, have 17.

Yes. Of course, that depends on what they lay down this year. It is admitted on all hands that they will have 13 in 1911.

Yes, that is right. There is no doubt they will have 13 on 1st April, 1911.

My own opinion is that they will have 13 completed in August, 1911. They will not have 13 completed in April, 1911.

That is because the right hon. Gentleman makes them build in more than two years, and if you do that I think you must equally make us build in more than two years. Experience of the past has shown us that in the last few years we have not built in 24 months, and those causes may affect us in the future, as they may affect Germany, but assuming the same standard of shipbuilding, then I say, according to my calculation, the Germans will have 13 on 1st April, and if they lay down four ships this year before July they will add to those 13 four in 1911, and they will then have 17—again, of course, on the two years' basis.

I should like to explain to the right hon. Gentleman that the four ships for the next German financial year are the ships in respect of which I am informed that materials and armaments have already been begun. Those are the four ships which were to be laid down— technically laid down—on 1st April. The right hon. Gentleman is supposing that another four ships will be laid down. The four ships of the 1909–10 programme will be laid down technically on 1st April, 1909, but the right hon. Gentleman must not suppose that another four ships will be laid down on 1st April.

That is exactly what I do suggest. I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for having interrupted me, because there is really no dispute as to the facts, except that he seems perfectly confident that the four ships of the what I call German anticipated ships were not laid down. My anticipation was, and is, that they were laid down.

I would not like to express any decided opinion as to whether any of them have or have not been laid down, but that they will be declared officially laid down on 1st April.

The information I have given me was, rightly or wrongly, that those ships were laid down last year. The right hon. Gentleman is not prepared either to assent or to contradict that proposition. He says, what is, to me, I admit, very immaterial, that they will be officially announced as laid down on 1st April next. What we want to know is whether they were, and, still more, whether those ships, which, no doubt, were in the programme for 1909 year, if they were laid down in November, as I believe they were, that means that the Germans laid down eight "Dreadnoughts" last year. They may lay down no "Dreadnoughts" this year. They may say, and the Government apparently think they are going to say, "We anticipated the lour ships for 1909–10 by laying them down in November. Therefore, we have no ships this financial year." But there are two other things they may do. Having laid down eight ships last year, they may lay down four ships this year, or they may do this year what they did last, and add eight ships. Of the capacity of their yards, and of their great engineering shops nobody now doubts. It has been practically admitted by the right hon. Gentleman.

Therefore I say I was right in my original estimate that we have to count on the possibility of there being 17 "Dreadnoughts" to our 14 in July, 1911, and that even when the two ships laid down next November are built, we shall then be only 16 "Dreadnoughts" to the Germans 17. And then, if the Germans go on at the rate, which is more than possible, the probability is that they will have on 1st April. 1912, 21 "Dreadnoughts" to our 20. The hypotheses are these—I want to make it perfectly clear to the Government and to the House—eight "Dreadnoughts" laid down in 1908 by Germany; and if four are laid down in 1909 there will be 17 on 1st April, 1912. If eight are laid down this year, as eight have been laid down last year, there will be 21 on 1st April, 1912, to our 20. And if the Germans imitate the policy of the present Government and lay down not only their eight in the financial year, but, as well, demand a new group of four when the Government propose to begin their new group of four—namely, on 1st April—they will then have 25.

I think not. What the right hon. Gentleman said across the Table to me was that while that might be possible on paper it was beyond the constructive power of the German shops and the German yards—in other words, that they cannot lay down eight this year and four at the beginning of the next financial year. Well, Sir, that is not the information which has reached me. He may have, and has, access to better information. Yes; but observe it is not so very easy to know what the Germans know. When did the Government discover they were laying down their four ships in November? When did the Government discover that the Germans deserved the warm eulogy passed upon them by the First Lord of the Admiralty with regard to the immense unprecedented development of their powers of turning out those great battleships, and, what is almost more important, the turrets and guns without which the great battleships are useless? The truth is: I do not question the excellence or pains the Admiralty are taking to make themselves acquainted as to what is going on, but as to the dockyards and shops of Germany, it is not so easy for them to do so.

They have been admittedly wrong with regard to Germany up to the present moment, and how are you going to count, what powers of prophecy are you going to exercise to convince the House and the nation that, in a matter on which our interests are vitally concerned, you are so intimately acquainted with all those plans and all that is done in those dockyards, Government and other dockyards and private works, and to be confident that the forecast I have made cannot be realised? Let us grant for the sake of argument that it cannot be realised, that it is impossible for Germany, though I do not for a moment believe it, to have 25 ships—"Dreadnoughts"—by 1st April, 1912. But then, the right hon. Gentleman will not deny it is possible to have 21. All that is required for them to have 21 is that they should lay down this year as many as they laid down last year. Having laid down eight last year and eight this year, that gives them 21 in 1912. I defy anyone who knows what is going on in Germany to say that is beyond the power of that admirably organised Power.

I do not know, of course it is impossible for me to foresee exactly, what the answer of the Prime Minister will be when he comes to deal with the situation which I have endeavoured to describe. I have done my very best to check the figures. I do not propose this problem, I can truly say, to the House in an alarmist spirit, but I have been forced most reluctantly, and against not only my wish but against all the traditions by which British politicians and statesmen have been animated for generations, I have been forced. Now for the first time in modern history, relatively modern history, we are face to face with a novel situation, so new, so dangerous, that it is very difficult for us thoroughly to realise all that it imports. For the first time there is bordering upon the North Sea, upon our own waters, the waters that bathe our own shores, a great Power that has got the capacity, and looks as if it had the will, to compete with us in point of actual numbers in respect of those great battleships. I am afraid nothing can be done; it is too late to do anything with regard to the years that precede November, 1911. What has been done has been done with regard to that. I look at even that period with the greatest anxiety, but we can do nothing now to remedy it. No activity on the part of our dockyards, no generosity on the part of our taxpayers, can make good that deficiency, if that deficiency does indeed exist. Let us without recriminations turn to that period of the future with regard to which we can do something. That portion of the future is that which lies within what I may call the scope and reach of the building programme with which this House has now got to deal.

I say that the programme as presented by the Government is utterly insufficient That right hon. Gentleman sitting below the Gangway began his speech by stating that he viewed with the gravest alarm the cost of the Naval Estimates. The cost of the Naval Estimates must be a source of anxiety to everybody responsible for the finances of the country, whether he belongs to the Opposition or to the Government; but I thought there was a matter for serious alarm, and that the financial alarm would be far overshadowed by that greater and more dominating alarm which for the first time has come home to me with regard to the actual command of the sea in our own waters. But I cannot forget another statement which the right hon. Gentleman went on to make, and in which he said no matter what the cost, the defences of the country must be secured. I welcome that announcement of policy, and I ask the Government opposite to carry it into effect. But I cannot bring myself to believe that merely laying down two of these ships in July, two more in November, and, by some curious Parliamentary legerdemain, two more at the beginning of the next financial year but one, is an adequate provision for the national safety.

I therefore do most earnestly beg the Government and the Committee to consider not indeed in any spirit of panic, but with a full recognition of the absolutely novel and, as I think, alarming circumstance in which this country finds itself, whether they cannot do something with the enormous resources which we have at our disposal in the way of the building of ships, guns, turrets, and our power of finding the necessary funds for dealing with the question of national defence. I ask them not to hesitate, not to delay, but to use to the utmost and as quickly as possible, without paltering, every possible machine which they have at their disposal for restoring to this country what I greatly fear we have temporarily lost—not that two-Power standard, which is far beyond question in this debate, but the one-Power standard in the matter of ships of first-class power, which for the first time in our history seems to be slipping from our grasp.

The House will see that I have dealt with the fundamental and vital aspect of the subject of national defence, and I hope the Prime Minister will see that this discussion can go no further, that we cannot touch on other details of the Navy Estimates, however important, until we are satisfied that everything is being done which national honour and national safety require.

I do not in the least complain of either the tone or the substance of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, because I agree with him that we are here face to face not with a party issue, but with a matter which affects the well-being and indeed the safety of this Empire as a whole. Any Government, I do not care to what party it belonged, which sacrificed that vital consideration to questions of temporary expediency or of Parliamentary tactics, would be well deserving of the condemnation which history always pronounces upon those who are false to a great public trust. I therefore shall endeavour to deal with the very grave matters which the right hon. Gentleman has raised, in a detached and certainly not party spirit. As he has said, and I think very truly, on this particular occasion, so far as our shipbuilding programme for the present year is concerned, the question of what is called the two-Power standard does not come in. It is a very interesting and important question, and one as to which, I may say parenthetically, I have myself sometimes been credited with having laid down a new proposition, whereas I believe that what I have said upon that subject was merely a repetition of what has been said and practiced by successive Administrations in this country for more than 20 years. Before I pass from that I will only say that, in dealing with the two-Power standard, with the question whether or not we in this country have a naval force which is adequate to satisfy that requirement, you must, of course, not take into account merely what the right hon. Gentleman did, namely, the number of your "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles," but you must take the total effective strength for defensive purposes as compared with the combined effective strength of any two other fleets for aggressive purposes. It is only in that sense it is relevant to our discussion. I do not think there will be any difference of opinion about that. But, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, the question which is more immediately raised by and relevant to the shipbuilding programme of this year, is the extent of construction, not of any other Power—really no other Power comes in for the moment— but of Germany. It is an extremely delicate matter, as the right hon. Gentleman has recognised, and requires to be handled with a great deal of caution and tact— which I hope we shall all observe, as far as we can in the course of these discussions— when you are, of necessity, and not of choice, compelled to compare your shipbuilding programme with that of a friendly Power. It must not be supposed that our calculations—which we have made, as I shall hope to show, very carefully—as between our own fleet and the German fleet, are inspired by any assumption or idea that our diplomatic relations with Germany are unsatisfactory or likely to become so. On the contrary, the course of international affairs recently—I am heartily glad to have this opportunity of saying it—has tended to remove, rather than to erect, possible barriers between Germany and ourselves. Diplomatic intercourse between us now is open and friendly, and we see no reason why it should not continue to be so. That it should so continue is our desire and most earnest intention.

That being so, it may be asked, and no doubt will be asked outside, why there should exist what appears to be an increasing competition between these two countries in naval expenditure. Why, and I am sure many of my hon. Friends below the Gangway will ask this question, is no mutual arrangement possible? I am going to give an answer to that question at once. The question has been raised by us, the British Government, more than once, with a view to ascertaining whether any proposal for a mutual reduction of expenditure for naval purposes would be accepted by the German Government. But we have been assured more than once, and in the' most formal manner, that their naval expenditure is governed solely by reference to their own needs, and that their pro- gramme does not depend upon ours. This is the statement made to us. They tell us quite plainly that if we built a hundred "Dreadnoughts," we must not assume that they would add to their naval programme, and, on the other hand, if we built no "Dreadnoughts" at all, they would go on with their programme just as it is. If that is so, it is perfectly clear that there is no room for a mutual arrangement for reduction. I regret it very much, but I do not complain. The Germans, like every other nation, are the best judges of their own national requirements. It is no business of ours to offer either criticism or advice, but to accept the facts as they state them, and we must adapt our programme to our national requirements. I wish to make it perfectly clear at the outset of this discussion that there is no foundation whatsoever for the two-fold assumption which is constantly put forward outside this House—in the first place, that we are setting the pace in a race of shipbuilding competition as between the different countries of the world, whereas we are most anxious if we can to slacken the pace; and, in the next place, there is equally no foundation for the supposition that we are animated in this matter by any unfriendly intentions, of any sort or kind, direct or indirect, present or remote, to the friendly nation of Germany. I thought it necessary to say that before I entered upon an examination of the criticisms of the right hon. Gentleman. I have only to add, with equal frankness to that which the German Government used to us, if that is so, we, without anticipating the contingencies of the future, certainly without in imagination arraying against ourselves as possible enemies this Power or that—we, whose whole national defence and security depend upon our supremacy at sea, cannot afford to go behind, to slacken our efforts, or to put ourselves in such a position that any contingency that might occur could possibly menace that independence and supremacy. If we take that line we do it not in any spirit of hostility to any other nation, but solely according to the elementary instinct of self-preservation. I hope in what I have said so far I shall command the assent of all quarters of the House.

Now let me see whether—and this brings me to the charge of the right hon. Gentleman—we are performing that which the right hon. Gentleman and I do agree is an essential and fundamental national duty. First of all, in regard to the earlier years of our naval administration. The right hon. Gentleman has rather suggested, though I do not think he pressed the charge home, that if in the first two or three years for which we were responsible-for the administration of the Navy we had shown ourselves more active in building "Dreadnoughts," we should be in a better position than we are to-day. I do not agree with him. From the point of view of general naval policy, as well as from the point of view of financial and economic policy, nothing is worse than to over-build yourselves in great ships. I agree that you ought always to keep your requisite margin of superiority, but to go beyond that is, in the first place, to spend the money of the taxpayers for a purpose for which it is not needed, and in the next place—and this, perhaps, is an argument which will appeal more strongly to the right hon. Gentleman than to some of his friends—in the ever shifting evolution of naval construction, to commit yourselves, possibly in advance and without necessity, to an adherence to a particular type which time, and a very short course of time, will show to be obsolete or capable of such large improvements that, if you have sunk an enormous amount of money in it, you may find yourselves very soon behind your neighbours who have had the wisdom to hold their hand. I do not think there is any more improvident policy, from either the financial or the naval point of view, than to commit yourselves in a vague sort of way to making provision for the future by building more ships than you need of a particular type at a particular time. Unless it can be shown that in any one of these three-years we have been behind the margin of strength, which I quite agree we ought to have, I do not think the right hon. Gentleman's argument comes to much.

What is the actual state of the case? It is always desirable in discussing these questions to look to the time at which your ships will be completed, commissioned, and ready for active service, and not the time at which they are ordered or laid down. The former is the critical date. From that point of view, taking December, 1910, as far as our shipbuilding programme administration is concerned, assuming the programmes to have been carried out in the manner in which they were projected, we should have 10 "Dreadnoughts"—I am using the term "Dreadnoughts" in the same sense as the right hon. Gentleman did, as including "Invincibles;" I do not very much like the phrase "capital ships." Let us call them "Dreadnoughts" for the purposes of argument, with the understanding that "Dreadnoughts" for this purpose includes "Invincibles." We should have had at December, 1910, 10 "Dreadnoughts" as against Germany's five. Is that agreed to?

I quite believe that the Germans would only have four or five in March, 1910, but in December, 1910, they will have 13.

In February 1911, I think the right hon. Gentleman will see that we should then have got completed two ships of this year—the first two ships of this year. Let me explain that in December, 1910, we shall have our eight of the earlier year plus the two of last year.

The last financial year—that is the year now expiring. We shall have the two which we took power to lay down in the Navy Estimates last year. That will bring you to 12 in February, 1911. Are we agreed about that? I am most anxious to meet any criticism on that point.

Well, call it March. By that time the Germans will have nine. I am giving the Admiralty computation. That is the Admiralty Estimate. By that same month of March the Germans will have nine. I quite agree two months later they may have 11, but coming to the month of August, 1911, when our programme of this year comes into force with the first two ships laid down in July, we shall then have 14, and in November, 1911, the other two ships laid down in November of this year, having become living entities, we shall have 16 against 13. That is our computation.

May I point out exactly where we differ on this point? We are agreed as to the number of ships we should have, but the right hon. Gentleman says that the Germans will only have 13. and we say that we fear that they will have 17, because they anticipated their programme and began ships in November which we did not think they would begin until April this year. That makes a difference of four months. That is the whole difference between the right hon. Gentleman and ourselves on this part of the argument.

I am told, and I think it is true, that it is a physical impossibility for them to have 17 by that time. That is the opinion of the Admiralty. Now I come next to the really critical date for the purpose of this argument—March, 1912. We have taken power in the Estimates for four ships, which make up 16, excluding the actual programme for which money is taken during the present financial year. We have taken power—a novel provision I quite agree, but one which I am prepared to justify as a most reasonable and businesslike arrangement—if the necessity should arise, that is if the acceleration of the German programme goes on, having given previous orders for materials—to lay down on 1st April next four more ships, with the result that by the end of March—I call it the beginning of April, 1912—we should have 20 ships. Supposing that power we have taken becomes exercisable, we shall have 20 ships. However, our estimate is that the Germans by that time may have 17. But, Sir, let me point out further, that if by additional acceleration of the German programme—I will say something about that in a moment—they were to attain what the right hon. Gentleman contemplates as possible at that date, namely, 21 ships—I am giving his own figures—we should have plenty of time between now and this time next year to make the necessary provision to advance beyond our figure of 20 by that date. But I must say, and it is fair and right to the German Government that I should say it, that we have had a most distinct declaration from them that it is not their intention to accelerate their programme, and we cannot possibly as a Government, believing as we do most implicitly in the good faith of those declarations, put before the House of Commons and Parliament a programme based on the assumption that a declaration of that kind will not be carried out. Be it observed—I want to be very careful in the language I use about this—I am not saying that it is a pledge in the sense of an agreement between the two countries. Nothing of the kind. I should not accuse the German Government of anything in the nature of bad faith if they altered their intention. We have been told by them expressly and explicitly that that is their intention—an intention not to accelerate, or, in other words, not to do what the right hon. Gentleman contemplates—what he credits them with the intention possibly of doing, namely, of laying down as many as eight ships in one financial year. It is impossible in framing these Estimates to do so while at the same time ignoring that declaration from the German Government, and that is why I say in taking this power to lay down if need be four ships on 1st April next year we are making such provision as prudence shows to be necessary for all the contingencies which we can reasonably anticipate at the present moment.

I said 17 was a possibility—13 is a certainty. It is because 17 is a possibility that we are taking this power, otherwise we should not take it at all. It is a possibility against which we may have to contend, and we take the power. The right hon. Gentleman said, and I think very fairly, that in a speech I made exactly a year ago on this subject, and in which I expressed a rather sanguine view of what the state of things would be in 1911, I made two assumptions, which have turned out I shall not say to be inaccurate at the time I made them, but which have not been verified by subsequent experience. I admit it to the full. I spoke, of course, on instruction. I got my information from the best possible sources, and I am perfectly certain that the Admiralty had taken every means in their power to satisfy themselves of the actual facts. What were these two assumptions I made? And here I should like to address myself a moment to some of my hon. Friends who think that in these Estimates we are guilty of extravagance. The first assumption was that the German paper programme—I think I described it as a paper programme—was one which might not be realised, and certainly would not be exceeded. That has turned out not to be true, because it is undoubtedly the case—I speak with as much reserve as I can about it, because I want to keep strictly within the verifiable truth—that during the autumn of last year there was an anticipation with four ships which belonged to the German programme of 1909–10 in the sense that orders were given, materials collected, and it may be that in one or two cases, possibly in more, ships were actually laid down. The right hon Gentleman asks when did we know that? We knew it, or heard of it, at any rate, in the autumn, I think in November, and it was in view of that most grave, and to us not only unforeseen, but unexpected state of things, that we had to reconsider our programme of the present year. For if the German programme had been what on paper it is, and what we assumed it to be last year, a Statutory programme confined to four ships, or whatever the number might be within the limits of the financial year, there would have been no question of anticipation or acceleration, or anything of the kind. When we had that state of things brought home to us it was a great surprise to us, I confess—the falsification of one of the hypotheses on which we had hitherto proceeded. The discovery of that state of things made it necessary to reconsider our programme, and to submit a different set of proposals to Parliament. That was the first of my hypotheses. The second hypothesis—and this is an equally serious matter—was a hypothesis as to the rate of shipbuilding. If anyone will refer to the speech I made a year ago he will see that I said with some confidence that whereas it would take the Germans 30 months to build one of these ships, we could do it in 24. I was not, of course, committing myself precisely to the number of months, but I did maintain that we had a substantial advantage in the rate of construction, which would always enable us to quickly overtake them when the event occurred. I am sorry to say that is not the case. I believed it to be the fact at the time at which I spoke, but there has been such an enormous development in Germany—I speak quite frankly to the House, because I am obliged to tell them these matters in order to let them understand why we economists have presented these Estimates to the House—there has been such an enormous development in Germany, not only in the provision of shipyards and slips on which the hulk or fabric of a ship can be built or repaired, but in what is still more serious—in the provision for gun mountings and armaments of those great monsters, those "Dreadnoughts" which are now the dominating type of ship—such an enormous development—and I will venture to say this without attempting to excite anything in the nature of unnecessary alarm in this country—such an enormous development as to be so serious a development from our national point of view, that we could no longer take to ourselves, as we could a year ago with reason, the consoling and comforting reflection that we have the advantage in the speed and the rate at which ships can be constructed. This is a fatal and most serious fact. We have both these sets of considerations. Both of them I agree invalidate the hypotheses which only a year ago I addressed to the House when speaking on this topic. I think that hon. Members on this side of the House should think twice or thrice before they refuse to the Government the power which we are asking the House to give. There is no set of men here who are more anxious than we are to save money for the purposes of social reform or to get rid of this horrible, devastating, and sterilising expenditure. But for the supreme and paramount interest of national security this is the least which we can demand from the House of Commons. I hope I have met the points which have been raised by the right hon. Gentleman. I can assure the House that it is with the most serious sense of responsibility, and after the most careful consideration of the facts and figures which are at our disposal, that we put forward this programme, which we believe to be adequate, and which we hope the House of Commons will accept.

May I ask this one question? The difference—the vital difference—between the estimate of the Government on the one side and the estimate we have tried to form on the other hand, seems to turn on the date when the four German anticipated ships are to be built. We suppose that they will be finished within two years or a little more after they are laid, down.

The Government do not deny that they may be laid down, and if laid down they may be finished in a little more than two years. If that is admitted, will not some of the calculations of the right hon. Gentleman be wrong, and will there not be a critical moment when the Germans are far stronger in comparison with us?

I speak with great difficulty in this matter, for it is not a pleasant thing to discuss the naval programme of a friendly Power. But I think it is desirable to tell everything to the House. Of the four German ships which the right hon. Gentleman calls the anticipated ships of next year's programme, all I can say is that I know that two are not laid down, although for those two materials I believe have been collected and armaments are in course of construction. Two are not actually laid down. As regards the other two, I know one is actually laid down, and with regard to the fourth ship I know nothing. That is the full information I can give to the House. As regards the completion of these four ships, I have no doubt that those which are not laid down will not be completed before August, 1911.

The right hon. Gentleman who was at the Admiralty knows that the period of building is a very uncertain factor. You may defer the laying down of the keel or you may lay it down early. If you lay it down in the ordinary time without regard to the preparation of material you may complete your ship ordinarily in two years, but if you defer the laying of the keel down until the material is collected you may complete the ship more quickly. The Germans have been collecting their material, but my opinion is that two of the ships will not be completed until the summer of 1911. The other two ships—not anticipated—will be completed in April, 1911.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman allow two years and six months for the ships which he anticipates will not be ready until August, 1911, but for which material has already been placed? Why is a different standard of time allowed for the construction of two German ships than is allowed for our own ships in this country?

If we were supposed to be constructing eight ships we could not complete them in two or three years any more than Germany could. You can complete two perhaps in two years, but if you propose to lay down six you cannot have them completed in two years unless you lay them down at fairly regular intervals.

I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether in April, 1912, the British "Dreadnoughts" will count 16 as against Germany's 13? I am speaking of certainties and not probabilities.

The right hon. Gentleman said that he had studied economy. He came into office as one of the Liberal party, pledged to peace, retrenchment, and reform. That was very good; but these Estimates are not in accordance with that profession of economy. If it is necessary to increase one part of the Estimates why not reduce another part. I see no reason why the whole of the Estimates should be increased simply because of the shipbuilding programme. I may say that I think it is a pity the moment we begin to criticise the Estimates the First Lord of the Admiralty should take this opportunity of leaving the House. I wish to offer no disrespect to the ability of the hon. Member who now represents the Admiralty on the Treasury Bench, but it would have been more respectful to Members below the Gangway if the First Lord had remained in the House to consider any proposals we had to make. Though we are not experts in shipbuilding we are all here as custodians of the public purse, and I am surprised that in the whole course of his speech the First Lord did not explain why it was he could not make a reduction in another part of the Estimates corresponding to the increase in the other part. Retrenchment at the last election was part of the programme of the Liberal party; and after three years of office we are entitled to further explanation on this point than we have yet had.

I think, looking at this huge estimate, they could have made reductions in some part of their programme. We have 128,000 men in the navy, that is twice the number there was within quite recent times. If it is true that these other ships which are not "Dreadnoughts" are now no use in the fighting line—and that is a very large assumption to make and one with which I cannot agree—why do the Admiralty keep them? Before the House can saction for a moment this increased expenditure, we ought to have in detail some justification for it, and we ought to be told why the First Lord cannot make a corresponding reduction? I know a great deal is said about automatic increases in the Estimates. But surely this is the result of previous expenditure. When Parliament sanctioned the borrowing of money in years past it was only on the assumption that Parliament was justified in doing so. If Parliament sanctioned the borrowing of money in previous years for the construction of a great Navy we are entitled to claim the credit of that expenditure and not to have other expenditure clapped on to us as if we were to derive no benefit from our previous expenditure. We have heard a great deal about the dangers from great and friendly nations and from other nations not named. It is anticipated that they will unite together and attack us. I should think that if the Admiralty had any nervousness as to attacks by foreign Powers they would take precautions against such attacks; but they do not do so. No capable commanders of the navies of other nations would venture to attack the British Navy after giving us notice of their intentions to do so. If an attack is ever to be made, those who make it will decide upon it at a time that they have misled us into a fool's paradise, and to believe that there was no danger whatever. After we have been lulled into that sense of security they will come some night and attack our Fleet. The people in the Admiralty must be well aware of any possible dangers of a midnight attack, and apparently they must have their minds free from any suspicion on the subject. They have made no protection whatever against a midnight attack. I understand no protection is or has in past years been taken against a midnight attack in times of peace. It was such an attack as that that caused the Japanese victory over the Russians at Port Arthur. That attack was an attack by one nation against another, before there was any declaration of war, and as a result Russia was disabled. We know that there are no precautions to prevent a French or a German fleet sailing up and torpedoing our fleet and sending our ships to the bottom. The Admiralty do not anticipate any such thing. It stands to common sense that anybody who looks through the ships we have got and the list of ships other nations have got must be aware of our superiority, and they would never dream of attacking us in the daytime after notice that they intended to go to war with us. Our superiority is so great that if we took any precautions there would be no possibility of defeating our fleet. The First Lord of the Admiralty seems to think we should have no ships but "Dreadnoughts." Some years ago the Germans decided that "Dreadnoughts" were not so superior to other ships, and they decided upon much smaller ships. It is quite true they have since changed their minds, and gone in for a programme of "Dreadnoughts." A very careful comparison shows that the difference between "Dreadnoughts" and the corresponding fleet of the smaller type of ship is not so very much. There are experts who consider that the vessels of the smaller type are exceedingly dangerous foes. Some people ask us to suppose that a German fleet of 14 "Dreadnoughts" is going to destroy this country, and they complain that we have only ten "Dreadnoughts," and that all our array of battleships of the smaller type are no use. The notion that all our enormous fleet of battleships and armoured cruisers are no use is simply a monstrous supposition. I have seen an account recently made out, by which rival strengths of the nations of the world have been compared in naval matters. Having regard to questions of speed, tonnage, guns, armament, fuel, oil, and other matters, which go to make every element of strength in ships, and it shows that the British fleet is equal to the combined fleets of the rest of Europe. Of course, it would be impossible to combine all the fleets of Europe against us. Our strength over any one Power is overwhelming, and no matter how fast the Germans build they cannot get up to anything like our power in the next four or five years. Is it to be supposed that a vessel of 16,000 or 17,000 tons is of no use because it is not a "Dreadnought"? After the statement of the Prime Minister in regard to the friendly relations between this country and Germany I do not see what reason there is for us increasing our programme because Germany is increasing hers. I am sure Germany is perfectly friendly to us, and no matter how little we build it will not affect her programme. That shows that the German programme is not being carried out in consequence of the British programme at all, and that Germany is not affected by our programme. We never had any war with Germany. Any relation we had with Germany in the matter of war was as allies, and there is no prospect that we shall ever have a contest with Germany. Germany has Russia and France on either side of her. Hitherto the Germans had no navy to cope with these Powers, and it could not be expected that Germany would continue to place herself in that position. The French might attempt to retake Alsace-Lorraine, and German trade and commerce might be destroyed. The French have an alliance with Russia, and so it is only perfectly natural that the Germans should make for a fleet to enable them to hold their own against Russia and France combined. That seems to me a reasonable proposition from every point of view, and that being so, why should we build an enormous fleet because Germany is trying to defend herself against the possible combination between France and Russia. Another reason for not rushing forward with this programme of "Dreadnoughts" is that we have not got the docks. The new dock at Rosyth will not be built for the next six years, and I do not know how long it will be before Portsmouth Dock will be ready to receive a "Dreadnought." Surely it would be better to wait a little and get big docks suitable for these ships before we build the ships themselves. A3 the Prime Minister said, we have been eminently wise in not building ships in view of the fact that shipbuilding is constantly changing. The ship that was all right five years ago is now considerably out of date, and it is highly probable that by the time these "Dreadnoughts" are finished another kind of warship will have been designed that will cut them out. Then I suppose the game will go merrily on again, and we will be told to discard our "Dreadnoughts" and build a new lot of ships. I read a fairy story a long time ago which gave an account of ships that were driven by internal combustion. But what was then a fairy story is now a question of fact, and I believe the Admiralty is at present building a vessel with internal combustion engines. Certainly there is at least one ship driven by an internal combustion engine, and it is highly probable that in the course of a few years' time such progress will be made with these internal combustion engines that the warship of the future will be driven by them. Then internal combustion engines will have to be put in all our great leading warships, and I think it is an exceeding pity that the Government should have decided upon this enlargement of their previous shipbuilding programme before we have had a chance of seeing what can be done by that kind of engine. An hon. Gentleman opposite has made a strong statement about the position of this country, but I remember when the Government of the hon. Gentleman was in power they gave away a most important station. They gave away Heligoland. If they were so frightened by Germany, if they were so frightened of what Germany can do to us, why did they give away Heligoland? If they had kept Heligoland and fortified it, as they could have done, with steel forts, five or six of our battleships could have found shelter under the guns of those forts, and could have been directed against the German fleet, if it had ventured to come out. We had an overwhelmingly strong position. It is all very well for hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to now come and take up this attitude of alarm, and for them when their own party is in power to go and give away the strength of the situation. It shows that they do not really think that we are in any danger, that the fact is that the Admiralty do not now take any precautions to protect our fleet from destruction at night. They say "Oh, but if we thought that war was coming, then we should take precautions, but that is not so, because the precautions should be taken every day in time of peace, because if, when there were strained relationships, you made a special order to take these precautions in time of peace that would probably precipitate a conflict."

Moreover, the relationships would not be strained at the time when the attack was made upon us, because it would be a treacherous attack. All great nations make treacherous attacks. The English made a treacherous attack upon the Danish fleet at Elsinore, and in that way secured the mastership of the seas, which otherwise they might not have obtained. The Japanese secured their supremacy of the seas in Eastern waters by their treacherous attack on Russia at Port Arthur, and I am quite sure that any Power which means to secure the supreme power will make a treacherous attack. For myself, I think the occupants of the Front Benches have shown that they have not the least possible idea of any attack upon us, because right hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House gave away Heligoland, and on this side do not take any precautions to protect our fleet from attack at night. I should like to say one thing, which I do most seriously and firmly believe, and that is that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty and all his colleagues are most sincere in all that they have advocated, and that they have no arrière pensée of any kind which they would not like to mention. But whilst an attempt is being made to get up a period of panic about Germany and other foreign countries, whilst the money of the nation is to be spent and poured out like water, while we are to be taxed for this purpose, and all manner of social reforms are to be put off for it, because we are so much afraid of the foreigner, the real cause of danger is not the foreigner, it is our own Naval and Military Departments. These are the real enemies of the freedom of the country. It may be said that there is no justification for such an anticipation, but I think there is.

We have to consider how entirely things have changed in the last 60 years. Sixty years ago if any party numerically small in this country having the control of the Army and Navy had wished to get the people in subjection they could have been arrested in their purpose by an armed rebellion. The people of this country could have got guns. They could have fitted out ships. They could have got cannon to put in those ships, and they could have defended themselves because their guns and their ships would have been just as good as the guns and the ships of the Government. But nowadays such a thing is impossible. The people of this country, except those who are armed by the Government, are practically unarmed, and that is a condition of things which applies to most of the countries of the world at the present time—the people of the country are practically unarmed, because unless you have the modern rifle or the modern rifled cannon you are practically without any arms whatever. That being so, if there were any differences between the Executive of this country and the people, the latter would be practically unarmed. We have seen that in Germany the military and naval authorities are practically masters of the country. The same thing applies in Russia, where they are also masters of the country. In France before the Franco-German War the naval and military authorities were masters of the country, and there was no freedom. What we are going for as straight as we can go now is for such an increase in the armaments in the Navy and Army of this country that they will be practically masters, and our hard-earned liberties will be in danger. I know people think that that is looking too far ahead. But you will not be protecting the people of this country unless you take care of these things in good time, and we must take care that we have not too great a force in the Army or the fleet. Before I sit down may I say that I never intended or expected to speak to-night, but those Gentlemen who have been asked to speak and authorised to speak, especially on behalf of the part of the House which objects to naval and military extravagance, did not rise in their places when the Vote was likely to go by without being challenged at all. Then I thought that even such a humble and incompetent Member as myself might rise and hold the position. I have just been speaking with the object of giving our scattered forces a chance to get here. I now see that there is an hon. Gentleman present who may rise to move a Resolution, and I see an hon. Baronet whom I hope will speak.

I will just say this in conclusion, that I never was more sorrowfully serious and earnest in my life than I am in opposing this increase of the Navy Vote. I should never have been in this House if I had not been impressed with the extravagance of the late Government, and I should never have supported the present Ministry if I had not thought that they were going in for economy. The First Lord of the Admiralty has made a plausible speech in introducing these Estimates, and a very nice speech it was, and very good of its kind, but it was not a defence of an increase of the Estimates at all, and I may say that whatever the result might be of going into the Lobby against these Estimates I should accept that responsibility, because if the result was that the Government were defeated, then I should say, "We have defeated them on an issue worth fighting for—the issue of the military and naval armament." We are in favour of peace with the world. We are not in favour of following an example which the Germans have set of building "Dreadnoughts." Let the Germans build "Dreadnoughts" by the score or by the hundred. I am not afraid of them. [Opposition cheers.] Quite so. I recognise the somewhat sarcastic nature of that cheer, but it is not easy to speak on the spur of the moment, and I had not expected to do so just now. We have so many Departments which are concerned with the safety of the country, and we can depend upon them. The Foreign Office, by means of diplomacy, is also concerned in questions of peace and war.

What I mean is that there are other Departments which consider that they can defend the country without the Navy, and I hope the Admiralty will consider that there may be some other Departments in the Government which may be responsible for the safety of this Empire besides itself. We must rely something upon alliances, and if we had a great contest with Germany we should probably have France and the United States on our side. This country never has entered into a great contest with any European Power without having alliances of a very powerful kind, and it would be an entirely new departure in the diplomacy of this country if we were ever to enter into war without any other great Power in this world being on our side, so that the whole brunt of that terrible conflict should not fall upon the people of these islands alone.

I feel very deeply the responsibility of intervening at this moment in the debate, and I think the hon. Gentleman for Lincolnshire who spoke last said quite rightly that this House had been so deeply impressed by the speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty, and especially by the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, that it wants a little time to consider the facts of the case which have been placed before them. The situation which was laid before this House to-day is most grave. It is simply the security of our country. I believe the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister is thoroughly aware of the importance of the subject, but, unfortunately, in this business, ever since he took his place on that bench, he has allowed himself from time to time to be controlled by the Little England party and the Little Naval party.

From the very first statement made by the First Lord of the Admiralty in the first year of office, in the Cawdor memorandum which we left for them, it was stated that four large armoured ships should be laid down each year; but the four dropped to three and the three to two, and the consequence is that we find ourselves at the present moment face to face with a situation of national insecurity. I do not believe it is bad policy to lay down ships when the ships are wanted. The Prime Minister told the House that we ought to be very careful not to lay down the ships for fear that a more modern type of ship should be invented afterwards. If that policy was carried out we should lay down no ships at all. The thirty-five millions odd which we are proposing to pay is simply in the way of national insurance, and I do not think it is sufficient. I trust the Government may still be willing to make it compulsory that in this year not only four "Dreadnoughts" should be laid down, but the four which they say they may lay down on 1st April next year. If they say that for certain they will make it secure that these eight battleships shall be laid down as quickly as possible, the national anxiety may be met. It is the first duty of a Government to look after our national safety. What is social reform, old age pensions, Free Trade, or Fair Trade, compared with our national security? If we are not safe as a nation what is the use of our spending time in talking about social reform?

The first and foremost reason why we should have a supreme Navy is our island home. The sea fortunately is all around us. Let us take full advantage of it. Then our world-wide Empire occupies about a fourth of the area of the globe, with a population of something like 400,000,000, and a coast line of 43,000 miles to defend. Then there is our food supply. We require annually at least 33 million quarters of wheat for our consumption in this country, and we only grow 7½ ourselves. Where would our country be in case of attack? We should be starving in three weeks if the supply of food could not come in. We require something like 300 ships a week to convey to our shores sufficient wheat and sufficient raw material to keep the country going, while our competitors, Russia, Germany, France, and the United States are all in a position to supply their population with food. Our mercantile marine is something like 12 million tons with a value of 14 hundred millions annually. The National insurance on that, taking it at the Government's figure of £35,000,000, only works out at 2.5 per cent. I believe the national income is something like 18 hundred millions sterling. What we are paying for the Navy only amounts to about 2 per cent, on that. Surely it is worth paying 2 per cent, on this vast amount of work. The fourth reason is that it is the most terrible instrument of war. Throughout all ages, from the Greeks and the Romans down to the present time, the country has got the supremacy in the end which has kept a strong Navy. What was it that kept us secure during the South African War? It was our Navy that kept our competitors out because they could not get there. We have been accustomed to talk of the two-Power standard, but we have heard nothing about the two-Power standard this afternoon. The Prime Minister has given us a pledge that he would keep up the two-Power standard plus 10 per cent. for contingencies. According to the figures we have had given us, we have not a one-Power standard. If the figures given by the Leader of the Opposition are correct, and they are very nearly if not quite correct, by April, 1912, the United Kingdom will have 20 capital ships, and Germany will have 21, and may have 25.

I should like on this question to quote a speech delivered in this House more than 100 years ago by an authority who I think will be listened to by my Friends on the other side, as he was the leader of their party in the time of William Pitt— I mean Fox. He was in favour of an English Navy which would be equal to any combination which could be brought against us. He made a speech in a debate on the subject of the reduction of the National Debt in the year 1785. He said:—

Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that the whole of Europe is combining against us now?

Neither the Prime Minister nor the Leader of the Opposition has made any suggestion of the kind. We want to be friendly with all the Powers of Europe, but being friendly ought not to stop us feeling that we are safe. It has been the custom to test the value of our Navy by battleships and I think that is right. Take the Japanese war. It was the battleships of Admiral Togo that kept in the Russian Fleet at Port Arthur. Whenever they tried to stir the long shooting of the heavy guns prevented them coming out.

To turn to the subject of Germany—I am reluctant to do it because we wish above all things to be on friendly terms with Germany, but it is best to look things in the face and have the truth, and we know where we are. The preamble to the Naval Act of 1900, says Germany, must have so strong a fleet that to even the greatest Naval Power a war would involve such risks as to imperil its own supremacy. That is the principle on which they are proceeding. You must recognise it. You would be foolish if you did not. They are making preparations. It is their fixed policy that they will have a navy which will compete with us. Mention has been made of preparations. Fortunately, I happen to know what the preparations are which are going on in Germany. In Krupp's Factory the modern plant is enormous—far greater than is required for Germany's present needs. Both the machines, the cranes, and the forges are very numerous, and the most up-to-date machinery has been introduced with a view of expediting work as much as possible. It has been stated that two years was the period for building a battleship both in Germany and this country. I believe that period, as far as Germany is concerned, is much too long. I have information, and the evidence, I believe, has been placed before the right hon. Gentleman, that it will be quite possible for Germany to build a battleship not in two years, but in one.

And having this, immense power by which guns and gun-mountings can be ordered in advance the guns and mountings could be ready long before the ship itself need be laid down. My correspondent says this:—"I am quite convinced that the German Emperor has an arrangement with Krupps, and that if necessary that firm would make the complete armament of ten battleships in any one year; of course, giving them a few months' time to collect material for them. Also Germany could build that number of battleships in a year. In other words, Germany, while gradually creeping up, could suddenly, before we knew where we were, level up to our Navy." If that is so—and I do not think it is far from that—it makes the situation far more serious than we have had it laid before us this afternoon. I hope sincerely that the Government, with all the evidence which can be laid before them, will reconsider the programme which they laid before the House this afternoon.

There is one more subject. Have the Government in any way considered what is going to happen when the Japanese alliance period determines? That period terminates in the year 1912. It has been extremely useful to us. It was useful also to Japan when the war with Russia was proceeding. What is going to happen if at that time Japan says that she is sufficiently strong with battleships and cruisers of her own, and that she can do without British assistance? If that takes place it will necessitate our keeping in Eastern waters many more ships than we do at present. Then there is the vast continent of Australia. Australian opinion at present I believe is that the means we offer them with regard to assistance by our Navy is not sufficient. I read the other day a report by Captain Cresswell, who is the Australian Naval Director, on three articles in the Melbourne "Argus" by Colonel Forster, who is the Director of Military Studies in the City University. Captain Cresswell disputes the whole of the Government's contention that we are now in a position to maintain Australia intact except from an invading squadron of four cruisers that would land 1,000 men. He goes on to give his reasons, and finishes up by saying that the Australian people have the greatest fear that in the future a Japanese-German alliance will be formed, and that if that alliance is formed there is the greatest fear that we shall not be able to resist any attack that might be made. He also says that the possibility of an alliance between Germany and Japan presents one of the greatest dangers to the British Empire that can be well imagined. The allied fleets working independently in their own waters would be subject to the somewhat disturbing influences under which allies at sea usually have acted Then he finishes by saying that it is plainly the course for the authorities charged with defence to make preparations commensurate with the risks we may incur, which considerably exceed the mere question of dealing with four unarmoured cruisers with 1,000 men, and it is necessary to shape our defensive policy accordingly. It is a serious matter when we have our Colonies like Australia questioning the power of the Mother Country to defend them. After the serious statements made this afternoon I do urge the Government to reconsider the working of this programme. If they will turn "may" build four more capital ships in April next year into "shall" build, it might go a long way to satisfy the fears of those who think that adequate provision is not being made.

What we do want to do is to leave in any uncertainty what course is going to be adopted. It may be in April next year the Government might say that these four ships are intended to be the programme for that year, and that they will cut down the programme of next year. The programme of the year following must be the same—four capital ships again, and we must keep up to that standard. This ought not to be a party question. If it were possible for both sides of the House to agree on a naval policy it would be an excellent thing for the country. We should feel far more secure. At the present moment I am sorry to say that we do not feel secure. We feel that the Government in their heart wish to keep up our standard, but at the same time we cannot help feeling that they are pulled back by yielding in weakness to those who wish a little Navy. There are those who favour the idea of a little Navy, but I venture to think that the vast majority of the country would condemn that opinion as unworthy of anyone who wishes well to his country.

I am sure that I would not be charged with being in any way jingoistic in my opinions as to what is the best method of deciding international disputes between nations, and also as to the necessity of, as far as we can, by making economies on military expenditure, which is very often unnecessary military expenditure, providing the means for social legislation, which is the legislation which those on these benches are specially present to secure. But while that is so I feel that it would be utterly impossible for me this evening, now that I have the opportunity of doing so, not to state my views with reference to the very serious question which we are discussing to-day. It is, or ought to be, a nonparty question. I believe that to a very great extent it is so. The statement I have heard to-day as to a powerful Continental nation which is preparing a navy that is apparently intended to be equal to our own is unquestionably one of the most serious propositions that have been discussed in this House since I, at any rate, have been a Member. I do not pretend to speak as an expert. I only look at the matter from the point of view of an ordinary citizen who wishes well to his country, and does not wish to give a vote in this House to do anything to interfere with her entity as a nation in Europe or in the world.

We have here a great Continental Power who have soldiers sufficient to protect them and even to assert their sway not only in their own country, but even in others that immediately surround them— a great army of three or four millions of men. When, as I understand from the statement made this afternoon, that this great Continental country whose first line of defence must be its land forces is also competing with an island kingdom like ours in naval construction, I am bound as a plain man to ask myself the question why is it necessary for this great Continental Power to build a navy almost equal to that of a purely island kingdom like our own? And while I do not wish to see the Government embark on excessive expenditure on naval construction, at the same time I am bound to say they are perfectly justified in assuming that a great Navy owned and controlled by a great Continental nation can only be intended for offensive purposes against some other great naval Power. If we had been foolish enough to have adopted conscription in this country, or foolish enough to have adopted the proposals of the National Service League and gone in for establishing in this island home of ours a great army of millions of men I could quite understand a Continental nation assuming that an army of that description is not for defence alone, but is intended to compete with the great Continental nations, and the armies that they possess. But what are our methods with reference to naval and military affairs? We have an Army utterly useless for any other purpose than policing our Empire. We have-to rely absolutely for the defence of these shores upon our Navy, and we should be blind bats indeed if we allowed a great Continental nation with an immense Army to produce at our doors, as it were, an immense offensive weapon without in the least taking cognisance of the fact. No matter what the pledges of that Administration may be, or the Government may be as to what the intentions of this Navy may be, or what are its purposes once it is established there is no controlling its purposes afterwards. We should be blind bats indeed if we did not make preparations for defending our own country.

I have voted against and spoken against the principle of war as deciding the difference between nations on every possible occasion. Just as I object to thieves and the principle of thieving, and take the precaution of bolting my door because I cannot get thieves to agree that honesty is the best policy, the fact that on the other side of the northern ocean an immense fleet is in preparation necessitates the same precaution being taken on the part of the nation as I should take myself to protect my own property. I think the Government have not gone one step further than the occasion requires. There has been no discussion as to the necessity of maintaining the two-Power standard. It is a question to-day solely of providing sufficient power in time of peace to repel an attack which seems to be in preparation. I do not say this attack is intended for us; but I cannot see who else it can be directed against. It is not intended to intimidate the Russian Government because the Russian Fleet is at the bottom of the sea; and it cannot be directed against the French Government because the French Navy is not keeping time with any of the nations who have a navy in Europe. I do not think it will be suggested that these German naval preparations are intended to attack the Monroe doctrine or to interfere with the United States, which is the next great naval power. There is only one other conclusion, and whilst Ministers in this House may not be able to say the word, we all know what the conclusion's As a man who studies affairs, it may be from a very limited horizon, but I am one of those who, after all, is capable of forming an average opinion of my own countrymen on these subjects—I am bound to confess that nothing has so surprised me as the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty in this House to-day. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that so far as I am concerned I am going to give no Vote during the discussion on the Navy Estimates, which at some future time when the defences of the country are put to the test I may be sorry for.

I confess that I have listened with great regret to the speech of my hon. Friend who has just sat down, inasmuch as he thought it necessary to state that he regards all naval preparations on the part of Germany as preparations in the nature of a thief desiring to break into his House. I noticed that observations of that sort were cheered from the Opposition Front Bench. I am sure that is a kind of proposition which the First Lord of the Admiralty would never think of making, for he would not be prepared to say that German naval preparations are to be regarded as a threat to this country. I appeal to the hon. Member for Stoke to put to himself the kind of question which he never seems to ask himself when he assumes that any act of preparation upon the part of another naval Power is necessarily directed against us.

What has the First Lord of the Admiralty told us in vindicating this expenditure? The right hon. Gentleman made an extremely impressive speech in regard to certain alleged hastenings of the naval preparations of Germany. I think the First Lord of the Admiralty must realise that if his information turns out to be inaccurate, he will have incurred a very grave responsibility indeed. We must, therefore, assume that he has given us information on this point to which he must stand. He has made out, of course, an extremely plausible case. Such an increase in the German naval preparations which the right hon. Gentleman has described, the hon. Member for Stoke considers indicate a design on the part of Germany to attack England. I would like to ask the hon. Member what are our naval preparations made for? I am not going to suggest that Germany would assume that we are about to invade Germany because we are making naval preparations.

I do not think there is much military sanity behind such a proposition. Why should we assume that German naval preparations are designed for an invasion of this country? We have had many statements showing the absurdity of such a contention, and even the Leader of the Opposition himself has given us an elaborate explanation as to the impossibility of such an invasion.

But the Leader of the Opposition made another speech on this subject last week.

I am aware that the Leader of the Opposition changes his opinions very often, but is it suggested that a few years ago the invasion of this country was an absolute chimera and that it has now become a highly probable proposition? If that is suggested now I am not at all concerned to discuss it. There are other reasons which, apparently, a number of hon. members are extremely desirous of not considering. I listened very carefully to the interesting speech made by the First Lord of the Admiralty, and I gather that a large part of his preparations are designed to guard our commerce and our trade routes. Why in the name of sincerity and common sense are we not to suppose that the German preparations are intended to guard German commerce? On what principle can you assume that the German naval preparations are a menace to our commerce? I have read not many years ago in leading journals produced in England serious deliberate, impassioned declarations that there must eventually be a war between England and Germany for the possession of the commerce now divided between the two countries.

Hon. Members are familiar with the theory, which is that as soon as there has been a battle or a naval war between these two countries, the victor gets all the commerce of the other nation. That is the kind of economics which goes with politics of this kind. These things get copied in Germany, with the result that the German people have as much right to assume that there is a party in this country bent upon annihilating German commerce by a naval war as we are justified in imagining the same intention on the part of Germany. The hon. Member for Stoke takes it for granted that the Germans need have no fear about England making an attack upon their commerce. We all know that we have no such intention, and think nobody could charge us with having any aggressive designs, because in all these matters we are blameless. Of course, the Germans have the same view of their own characters as we have. Is there any other country in the world which claims the mastery of the sea as we do? Do the Germans sing "Germany rules the waves"? Do they ever use the expression that is constantly being used amongst us when we are defending our right to defend ourselves—namely, the word "supremacy." Who has any right to assert supremacy on the sea? By using that expression you are continually giving the Germans grounds for apprehension.

Then there is the question of the policy which has been raised more than once in this House with regard to international law as affecting capture of commerce at sea. The First Lord of the Admiralty desires to make this a perpetual competition in armaments with no kind of controlling policy whatever. This House has never been told a good reason why the Government should not agree to abandon the claim to capture commerce at sea in time of war. We have never had a reason given on this point which will bear a moment's investigation. If that claim be given up then the pretext for a powerful Navy disappears altogether. An hon. Member opposite spoke of those who deprecated this naval expansion as desiring a small Navy. What we do desire is not a relatively small Navy, but rational navies all round. We consider the enormous burdens that are being laid upon the shoulders of all the nations could be immensely lightened by a rational agreement as to policy. Allusions have been made to "Little Englanders." I have always held that that phrase must have first been cogitated by the kind of man who would be ashamed of his mother if she kept a small fruit shop, and proud of her if she kept a large public-house. What is a large Navy but a vast and wasteful expenditure of public treasure in a direction which one would have thought the very progress of civilisation, would have largely shut out. The practical question is, Have we or have we not the right to believe that if England had agreed to abandon her claim to capture commerce at sea during time of war there would be retrenchment in naval armaments on the part of all naval powers I I think we all realise, and in his heart the First Lord of the Admiralty also probably realises, that these German Navy preparations are made for the protection of German commerce just as much as our preparations are made for the protection of British commerce.

If that is so, what have the Government to say in the matter of policy? It may be argued that before we give up the principle of the capture of commerce at sea, other powers should grant us something in the way of the curtailment of their naval expenditure. That seems a hopeless line on which to embark. If you agree to surrender the capture of commerce at sea, other countries, for the first time in their history, will feel safe as regards their commerce. If after surrendering that right Germany still continued to arm we might declare that her intentions were sinister, and if she went on building a great Navy you might have some right to come down and say only sinister intention can account for the policy Germany has undertaken. But if international trade is so vital to us, has it not become more and more vital to Germany? Is not her export and import trade increasing year by year? If there is anything in his argument must he not admit that there is great force in the same argument for Germany? What answer have we ever had to the appeal to abolish this ancient claim to capture the enemy's commerce at sea in time of naval war—a claim that you have long ago abandoned in land war? The only argument—and I listened very carefully—I can recall was one put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary last year. He put it that the Navy, being the great arm of England—I suppose that still holds good in spite of the recent statements of the Minister for War—it is by its Navy that England must look to strike an effective blow to close any war in which she might be engaged. If you abandon the right to capture the commerce of the enemy at sea you cannot; you will not be able to close the war. The enemy's ships, said the right hon. Gentleman, might stay in their ports, waiting for a chance to take us by surprise. But supposing the enemy's ships remain in their own ports, where is the war? How are you going to strike an effective blow? There is no fighting. I am a tolerably strong lover of peace, but I do not greatly object to a war in which there is no fighting. The state of war to which the Foreign Secretary alluded is not a very serious evil. But I venture to think that the general picture thus drawn is fanciful and fantastic, for if it be that an enemy really gains the advantage by locking up his ships in port and watching for us to pop out, we, a great maritime Power, can play the same game. We can lock up our ships too, and such a war might go on till the day of judgment. This reduction ad absurdum is the simple and plain refutation of the arguments of the Foreign Secretary as the ground for the refusal to abandon the claim to capture the enemy's commerce at sea. Now, I do not know how far this particular line of argument is strictly relevant to the debate, but it seems to me essential that it should be taken into account before we come to the question of the policy as a whole—before any system of expansion can be settled at all by the nation. I am not going to impugn the argument put forward by the right hon. Gentleman. He has sources of information which private Members cannot pretend to call in question. But I am driven to fall back upon what to me has been the essential point, which has never been properly faced by the Government. It has been defended with arguments that I say are weakness in themselves; and I make an appeal to the First Lord of the Admiralty to give us in this particular Debate some light upon this question. Can he hold out any hope that the Government will take a rational course in meeting the demands of foreign naval Powers by concessions, after making which they might have the best grounds of hope for a consistent restriction of armaments all round? If the right to capture commerce must still subsist, in spite of the appeals of other Powers, if he cannot give us anything like a hopeful assurance with regard to that, I can only say that no one can see the end to this campaign of expenditure.

Hon. Gentlemen opposite are always talking of the safety of the nation. Do you think that the safety of any nation is being promoted by a perpetual expansion of expenditure till you endanger the very ordinary means of defence; till you strain your whole resources in the way of taxation, the while failing to carry out the measures you know to be for the real betterment of your people? When you spend your money in ships to defend you at sea, and cannot get together the funds for the regeneration of the very stock of the nation! You complain of degeneration, and well you may. What is the value to the nation of all this naval armament unless the people's well-being is also on a sound footing? Hon. Members opposite constantly speak of the degeneration going on in the stamina of the race. Why cannot they face this? How can you hope to arrest the degeneration of the race by means of social and political machinery, when you are straining every nerve, year by year, to get more ships, which, after all, are not capable of calming the eternal apprehensions of the men who demand them? With the relatively biggest Navy that ever floated on this globe, we still have this perpetual increase going on! Members opposite want us to have a British Navy and a German Army. No security is given to us that this increasing expenditure will come to an end. I recollect, in Mr. Goschen's time, that we sustained some diplomatic reverse in Russia. This House, with a recklessness that has never existed since, suddenly voted £8,000,000. I do not know who was then menaced, but it started a long series of sudden Votes.

The Ministers of other Powers go down to their House and make the same sort of speeches as the right hon. Gentleman, and the result follows. If that is the whole prospect before us—perpetual rivalry till bankruptcy stops one or the other—then the nation is in a much more serious condition than was even made out by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman to-day.

As usual the hon. Member for Tyneside has made a speech of a very highly theoretical character. I did think, as representing a great Tyneside Constituency, he would have looked at the matter from a more practical point of view. It is quite evident to the House that he has endeavoured to draw a red herring across the path by the discussion of this question of our keeping the right to capture ships at sea during war. The hon. Member had in mind the desirability of the abrogation of the Treaty of Paris. I think it is still in force. Under that Treaty—perhaps the hon. Member may not be aware—an enemy's goods in a neutral ship other than contraband of war are not liable to seizure. In the same way, neutral goods in an enemy's ship are free from capture at sea. I think that we, having gone that distance in the direction mentioned by the hon. Member, have gone as far as we possibly can.

Now I think that Members upon both sides of the House must have been greatly surprised at the speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty. I listened to that speech very carefully. I expected—and no doubt whatever Members of the House thought — when he made that speech he was going to deal with the two-Power standard plus 10 per cent. I have not heard a single word with regard to the two-Power standard. What I did hear, and I have heard it with a certain amount, perhaps not very great, surprise, that practically in two or three years we are to be equal in power to the Germans. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to be upset that Germany can turn out ships in the rapid way she can do. If he had studied German shipbuilding in the last few years he would not be surprised. I wrote a series of articles in the year 1895 for an English newspaper on the progress of shipbuilding in Germany. I pointed out the enormous progress she was making. I pointed out that in Germany I had seen in shipyards there—at Stettin and Hamburg—ships building up to 625 feet in length. Upon the Tyne, at that time, we had not laid down any keel longer than 500 feet. Again, I pointed out four or five years ago that even greater progress had been made by Germany. I also fully recognised that after Germany ceased building these great Atlantic liners she would turn her attention to turning out warships at a much more rapid rate. I think the speech of the right hon. Gentleman has justified the view of those who have studied the question of German shipbuilding. The hon. Gentleman for Tyneside wants, like a good many other people we know, to know why Germany is building this great fleet. He says we are building our fleet to defend our commerce: may it not be possible, he says, that Germany is building her fleet to defend hers? I am going to deal with that particular point. Whatever Germany may have to defend in the shape of commerce is infinitesimal to that which we have to defend. We have to defend a much greater mercantile marine. We have to defend our great Colonies. We have to defend and maintain our position at sea, so that we can admit food from all parts of the world. What are the main points that a British fleet would have to keep in view in time of war? It would have to keep in view the defence of the main arteries through which we get our food supplies. What are they? First and foremost, there is the Black Sea, next there is Bombay, to a small extent, and Kurrachee to a greater extent. Then there is the food supply from Australia, New Zealand, the Argentine, Canada and the United States. Everyone of these great trade routes would have to be defended. Let us consider how many ships, it would take; how many would possibly be required. Take first the Argentine The River Plate is one of the principal places from which we get supplies of food at the present time. It is 6,500 miles from this country. It takes an ordinary cargo-ship from 32 to 35 days to bring a cargo .from there. From this country to the River Plate there is not a single coaling or naval station where the British man-of-war could coal on the way. There are St. Michaels, Madeira, the Canaries, and Cape Verde. These are coaling stations, but not one of them belongs to this country. They belong to Spain; and Portugal. Then take India and Kurrachee. Take any ship bringing Indian wheat. If she is navigated by the Suez Canal she comes a distance of 7,000 miles. Such a ship might be stopped by the sinking of a single ship in the Suez Canal. Then a British admiral would also have to keep his eye upon the route to Australia, which is 11, 12 or 13 thousand miles distant. Canada and the United States are some 3,500 miles. Now, these are some of the trade routes which we have to guard in the event of war. However great the German Navy may be, or the French Navy, yet our Navy must be incomparably greater than these because we have so much more to do.

I would like to call attention of hon. Gentlemen who defend a small Navy to what would be the results of the adoption of such a policy in regard to our food supply. We import into this country 45,000,000 quarters of wheat a year, and a rise of 5s. in the price of wheat means no less than £11,000,000, or £3,000,000 more than the £8,000,000 to be spent on our Navy. Then we have enormous imports ot meat, bacon, and butter, amounting to no less than £150,000,000 a year. A rise of 50 per cent, in price would mean £75,000,000. I commend these figures to those who deprecate any idea that we should defend the seas in order to enable our food supply to be secure. In the case of any interference with that food supply it is not the shipowner nor is it the upper classes of this country who would feel the effects; it is the working classes who would suffer. There is not a man living who can tell what would be the effect of a naval war upon our food supply at the present time. We have not had a naval war for upwards of 100 years, but I have figures which show what is the effect on the price of food when war is simply threatened between two other countries. In 1877, just before the Russo-Turkish War, I sent out a steamer to Constantinople unchartered, because I thought I might get an increased freight. When she was due in Constantinople I chartered her at that time at 37s. 6d. to bring wheat from the Black Sea to this country. Within a week the freight was 75s.—just double in that short period because of the prospective war between Russia and Turkey. The freight of 37s. 6d. means 5s. 6d. a quarter, and 75s. means 11s. 6d. a quarter, so that gives you some idea of the enormous rise which may take place in a single week owing to a threatened war between two countries. I find that in 1899 and 1900, owing to transports being required to carry trcops out to Africa, the freight rose from the River Plate from 19s. a ton to 31s. a ton. From New York it jumped from 2s. 3d. a quarter to 4s. a quarter—nearly double. From Azoff, in the Black Sea, it rose from 9s. to 14s. 9d., and from Odessa from 7s. 6d. to 12s. 6d. These are most important points to consider, especially for the working classes. I have no hesitation in saying that if we were on the eve of a war between this country and another naval Power it would not be a question of the freight on grain going up 5s. or 10s. a quarter. To my mind the very imminence of war between this country and a naval Power would put wheat up by over 100s. a quarter. These are matters which must be considered very carefully in discussing this question of maintaining our supremacy on the seas. Then we have to consider what is the position of this country in regard to Continental Powers. The hon. Member for Tyneside deprecates a powerful Navy, forgetful of the fact that the Tyne is a most important shipbuilding centre, with a great ordnance .factory and a river where we build warships. The Tyne is only 450 miles from Kiel, via Baltic Canal, and only 400 miles from the great German naval port of Wilhelmshaven. What is to prevent a ship leaving one of those places one day and being here the next morning after committing great havoc in one of our great ports? We have to take into consideration that it is more than a mere question of the number of ships. There is a difference of opinion among naval experts as to whether we are wise in building so many "Dreadnoughts." I should like to remind the House that during the Russo-Japanese War Japan in one day lost two ships, which simply went down, I believe, with all hands owing to the explosion of mines. I remember also that Russia lost a very large ship, which went down in less than half an hour. How illusory it is therefore to rely on the number of ships. In addition to the number of "Dreadnoughts," we want an ample supply of cruisers, submarines, mines, torpedoes, and a very elaborate system of defence all round our coast. We also want —and to this I draw the attention of the First Lord of the Admiralty—more facilities upon our coast in the shape of dry docks for the repair of ships. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have awakened to the fact rather late in the day that there is a deficiency of dry docks upon the East Coast of England. Last Session I asked the right hon. Gentleman several questions as to whether he was prepared to give repair work to the owners of dry docks, and he said that he had not the slightest intention of doing so. He has changed his mind.

The right hon. Gentleman says no, but I venture to think he has, because if it were not so I cannot imagine that the right hon. Gentleman would place the floating dry docks that he has mentioned only in naval bases in different parts of the country. If these floating docks are to be put down in the most economical way encouragement should be given to private owners to do the work. You are building a base at Rosyth, and the right hon. Gentleman tells us to-day— and I think everybody who heard him was surprised to hear it—that in that naval base there is going to be only one dry dock. What on earth is the good of one dry dock in a naval base of the magnitude of Rosyth? If a cruiser came into that dock for repair there is no man living who could tell how long she would be likely to be there. Have we to be in the humiliat- ing position in time of war of being unable to send our ships to sea because one of the dry docks is full? It will be found before many years are over that you will have to put down more than one dry dock at the Rosyth base. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there will be some difficulty in regard to these great floating docks. You will require 40 or 50 feet of water in which to float them, and I admit that there would be great difficulty in finding that depth on the East Coast. There would, however, be no difficulty whatever in mooring the docks; the difficulty would be in finding sufficient water to float them. I have had some experience of floating docks, and I quite appreciate the fact that they are much better for the dry docking of vessels than the ordinary dry dock, because in the latter you have the ship below the surface of the ground in a very damp atmosphere, and it is very difficult to get her dry to work upon. Therefore a floating dock is very much better than a dry dock. Twenty-five or thirty years ago not only naval surveyors, but other surveyors, refused to put ships into floating docks. All that is changed now. I have seen dozens and dozens of destroyers on floating docks in the Tyne. If you can find any place, whether at Rosyth or elsewhere, where you can put one of these floating docks, then that is the best thing that could be done. A floating dock is mobile. It can be easily moved. If the right hon. Gentleman liked to make a dry dock he could put in it machinery which would propel it at the rate of five or six miles an hour from any one port to another. It could be moved with a ship upon it, and if it came within the range of gunfire provision could be made for withdrawing it out of range. Therefore I am extremely pleased to hear that the right hon. Gentleman recognises the importance of this question of the dry-docking for those ships. Before leaving that part of the subject I wish to point out this important fact, that at the present time, I believe he will hardly contradict me, you have not sufficient dry docks in the great Naval ports to dry-dock the number of battleships now requiring dry-docking. You cannot increase the size of your "Dreadnoughts," because your dry docks will not accommodate them. Some people think a dry clock one hundred feet long will accommodate a ship of that length. No such thing—only a ship about eighty feet, because you will require the room for staging to work at the ship's side. I think, if the right hon. Gentleman will inquire, he will find he is not able to build larger ships than "Dreadnoughts" without building larger dry docks.

I remember I have said on many an occasion on a public platform that the size of our Navy would not be settled by the Cabinet sitting in London, but will be settled by the Cabinets in Berlin, Paris, and in Washington, and other capitals. They are the people that will settle the size of our Navy. I consider that the present Government has incurred a tremendous responsibility in allowing our Navy to get into the position it is at the present time, an acknowledgment that it is not equal to two Powers, that it is hardly equal to one Power. He told us that many of our ships—ships we took a great interest in a few years ago—the "Lord Nelson" and "King Edward" type, are practically, or very nearly, fit for the scrap-heap. I, to a certain extent, agree with him; yet in the Naval Estimates you will see a list of these battleships on which they are going to spend a lot of money in repairs. I ask the right hon. Gentlemen to consider very carefully before they commit themselves to spending money on those ships nearly fit for the scrap-heap. I remember a large amount of money spent on a battleship called the "Howe," and I see she is now on the list to be sold out of the service. I would very much rather spend money on new ships than on repairs on old ships.

The hon. Member for Tyneside, I have already mentioned, was anxious to know why Germany was building a fleet. I am very anxious, and other people are very anxious, to know that. I inquired myself in Germany why they were building a fleet, and this is the answer I got from responsible people. They said: "We are increasing our population at the rate of about one million per year. We cannot put many more people on the land, it is already crowded. We must very soon emigrate our people, and when we emigrate our people we are going to emigrate them so I that they can go under the German flag." And they wound up by saying: "Germany must expand or Germany will burst," Those were the words that were used, and it gives some idea as to why Germany is building a fleet. Some people seem to think that it is only the upper classes, the ruling classes, in Germany, who are in favour of a great fleet. The people generally are in favour of a great fleet. [An Hon. Member: "No."] I recently went to the town hall in Nuremburg with some friends, and on the table I saw a beautiful model of a first-class cruiser. I said, "What is that doing here?" That was in Bavaria, hundreds of miles from the sea, and where probably millions of people would never see the sea. They told me it was called the "Nuremberg," and added: "We are very proud of it, and we are all in favour of a great navy." Those are facts that we cannot afford to lose sight of. I do not intend to say anything to jeopardise the good feeling between this country and Germany, but we cannot shut our eyes to this feeling.

We have in power a Government that is pledged up to the hilt to reduce the expenses upon the Army and upon the Navy. If I wished a man to take charge of any of my business I inquire into his antecedents, and I see whether he is fit for the work or not. When I look at the occupants of the Treasury Bench I have the very gravest doubts as to their fitness to administer the naval affairs of this country. One of the principal members of the Government, the President of the Board of Trade, had something to say to this House during the last Parliament to which I wish to call the attention of the House. I am not going to quote some of his old speeches. I am going to take his years of discretion. When he acknowledges he had sown his political wild oats —namely, 1904. I quote from a speech delivered in this House on 16th May, 1904, from "Hansard." This is what this Member of the Government said:

If is a remarkable thing that all countries except this country seem to think that a great Navy is the best guarantee for peace. We seem to think, hon. Members below the Gangway and on the opposite side seem to think, that we build ships for the purpose of war. In other countries they think they build them for the purpose of peace. I was at the launch of a Japanese battleship, and I heard the Japanese Minister say that the vessel would be employed to maintain peace in the Far East. During the launch of that ship they let loose a great cageful of white pigeons as an emblem of peace. They always do so. They think they are the best guarantee for peace. The German Emperor recently said: "The German fleet was now a fleet, and for every battleship another pledge of peace on earth was given." Perhaps some may smile, but that is the opinion of the German Emperor. The President of the United States—Mr. Roosevelt— said he hailed the building of the American Navy, and added: "Our voice is now potent for peace, and is so potent because we are not afraid of war." That is the opinion of rulers in other countries, and why should it be different in this country? I believe the stronger the Navy the less prospect there is of war. The time to prepare for war is during the period of peace. If you want to build warships cheaply build them during peace because if you attempt to build them during time of war you will have to pay very heavily for them. One of the best guarantees of peace is to add to the number of our ships, especially during the time of prolonged peace, and at a time such as we have at present, when so many men are out of employment, and ships can be built cheaply.

There is one other point to which I should like to call attention. We hear a great deal of pride expressed at the large number of fast ships which this country possesses. We do possess some, but not a very large number. We have the "Maure-tania" and the "Lusitania." They were built by the aid of the Government, who lent the builders 2½ millions sterling at 2¾ per cent. The late Government were the cause of those two ships being built. There are other lines of fast steamers—for instance, the International Steam Navigation Company, which owns all the White Star Line, the Frederick Leyland Company, and the Atlantic Transport Company, and also other lines in which we take a great pride. But every one of those ships is controlled by the International Mercantile Marine Company, of New Jersey, U.S.A., who, during a war, would have the control of them, unless we took advantage of an agreement into which we entered with the United States during the last Parliament, by which we have first call upon them. But they are undoubtedly owned and controlled in the United States, although they fly the British flag.

Those ships, at any rate of the Frederick Leyland Line and the International Mercantile Marine Company, are entirely controlled in Liverpool, and I believe are owned in Liverpool.

I am surprised at the hon. Member making a statement of that description. He must perfectly well know that these ships are under the control of the Morgan combine, which is really the International Mercantile Marine Company, of New Jersey.

He is only the British manager. They have the control of no less than 553,317 tons of net register, with a carrying capacity of from a million to a million and a half tons. I maintain that that is a very serious state of affairs for this country, because we can easily recognise that in the event of war the gentlemen who control these ships would endeavour to control also the wheat market. It would not be the first time that they had done it. What was the result of the Leiter corner in wheat in 1898? The price of wheat at the time was about 25s. a quarter, and that corner, through the action of one man, raised the price to 48s. 1d.—a rise of over 22s. a quarter. If we had a corner in wheat, plus the control of these vessels, it is easy to see how, if we lost even only temporarily the command of the sea, we should be at the mercy of these gentlemen. Rightly or wrongly, we have allowed land to go out of cultivation. We grow only 20 per cent, of the wheat required in this country, while France grows 98 per cent, and Germany 65 per cent, of the amount they require. The country growing 65 per cent, or 98 per cent, of its requirements, and having at the same time land frontiers, is not dependent on sea supremacy in the way that we are. I commend this argument most seriously, especially to the representatives of the working classes, who, after all, are the most concerned in maintaining our supremacy at sea. Whatever we do, no matter what it costs, it is cheaper to pay for ships than to run the risk of our food supplies being interfered with. A large Navy is the cheapest form of insurance. If we spread the cost of the Navy over the cost of our imports of food and the Mercantile Marine, it will be found to be infinitesimal compared with the risk that we should run if our food supplies were interfered with. Then we have our great Empire, and we must defend it. That Empire entails responsibility. Some hon. Members are afraid of that responsibility, but we on this side are not. We are called Imperialists, and we are proud of the title. We believe in a great Empire; we hold that it is worth fighting for; and we contend that the best way to maintain that Empire is to maintain a Navy in the highest possible state of efficiency.

I do not intend in the few urinates that remain for discussion to attempt to deal this afternoon with the great and vital questions which were discussed at an early stage of our proceedings; but I should like, if I could, to ascertain the basis of certain statements made by the First Lord of the Admiralty with regard to naval works and loan expenditure. The right hon. Gentleman stated, to the astonishment at any rate of those who have been connected with the Works Department of the Admiralty, that as a result of a visit to Malta—a visit occupying, I believe, some 24 hours or thereabouts—

That in that time, by an examination of the works, he was able to discover that the whole system of building works out of loans was a mistake. That is a very large deduction to draw from such slight premises. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will on another occasion explain to us how he was able in so short a time to arrive at such an interesting conclusion. We on this side do not agree with that conclusion. At any rate, under a system of loans, we did get works done that were required, but I am not aware that the execution of any of those works was discovered to be faulty or open to criticism on technical grounds. What do we see on the other side? As a result of the abandonment of the system which was in force when we went out of office, we find certain vital works, absolutely necessary for the security of the great fleet we are now compelled to construct, completely stopped for a long period. I do not wish to raise at this moment the question of what provision the Government propose to make on the East Coast for the gigantic fleet which is shortly to come into being. At any rate we have this fact—that the work at Rosyth, plans of which had been completed before the late Government went out of office, and for which the contract was expected to be let in June, 1906, has been delayed for at least three years. That delay has resulted as far as I can see from the abandonment of the policy of constructing works out of loans. It would be interesting if the right hon. Gentleman could explain to us in what way the plans of the late Government had been modified to such an extent that it has taken the Government three years to think over those modifications.

And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further proceeding was postponed without Question put.

Private Business

[The Deputy-CHAIRMAN (Mr. Caldwell) in the chair.]

Great Central Railway (Various Powers) Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this Bill be now read a second time."

I do not propose to move the rejection of this Bill, but I want to state very briefly the reasons that made me put on the notice paper a Motion for its rejection. It seemed to some of us— I was acting for independent shipbuilders, shipowners, and engineers—that there were clauses in the Bill which authorised the Great Central Railway Company to enter the business not only of dockowners, but also of shippers and engineers, and of carrying on subsidiary manufacturing trades. There is another Bill, in another place, which has clauses tending in the same direction. Some of us felt very strongly that railway companies should not be allowed to enter into the ordinary businesses of manufacturers, either by starting subsidiary companies, or by subsidising companies formed for those purposes. We therefore decided to start this opposition to the Bill. The Great Central Railway Company have disclaimed any wish to start as manufac- turers. A clause has been settled between the promoters and the opponents of the Bill which will entirely satisfy our opposition, and which will preclude the railway company from entering into any processes of manufacture or undertaking enterprises otherwise than as bonâ fide graving-dock owners. We feel that we have been fairly met by the railway company, and we have no wish to put any impediment in the way of their obtaining their Bill.

I do not propose to move the rejection of the Bill. My objection to the measure was that the railway company proposed to take powers for the closing of certain footpaths and level crossings, by clauses 26 and 27. The promoters of the Bill have agreed to withdraw Clause 26 from the Bill in Committee. Clause 27 was opposed by an urban district council where it was proposed that a level crossing should be closed. This proposal the promoters will withdraw for the time being, subject to terms being come to with the urban district council. The proposal of the promoters is that the whole question should be submitted to the County Court Judge in the district in order to ascertain whether this is the most reasonable way of dealing with the question of the level crossing, and if he says "Yes" the urban district council will not raise any further objection if the promoters insert this clause in their next Bill. The promoters of the Bill agree to withdraw the clause for the time being subject to these terms being agreed, and under the circumstances I feel that I should not be justified in moving the rejection of the Bill,

Question put and agreed to; Bill read a second time.

Moral Instruction in Elementary Schools

moved: "That, in the opinion of this House, provision should be made in the code for moral instruction to be efficiently given in every elementary school, and that the regulations for the training of teachers should be so amended as to secure that they are adequately trained to give such instruction. "He said: The question of moral education has been declared by Professor Sadler, perhaps the most all-round and wise of our education specialists, to be the heart of the education problem. By moral education I need hardly say I mean the training of character, or, to be more precise, the training in personal, social, and civic duty. In other words, the Resolution I move is conceived in a broad spirit, and I hope it will be debated on its merits. At the very outset I desire to say that I fully recognise that a great deal of moral training is given, and can very well be given, without any direct moral instruction. We all fully realise the moral training which comes from the atmosphere, discipline, and esprit de corps of school life. School work is of enormous importance in the formation of character, but I do hope that we also realise that there is room for direct moral instruction, and that direct moral instruction is needed to reach certain parts of the character of children which is not reached, and cannot be reached, by what we call moral training alone. During recent years interest in moral training and instruction has been rapidly increasing all over the world. During the first part of my speech I propose, with the permission of the House, briefly to survey a few of the main incidents—a few of the main landmarks—in the development of this matter. As regards foreign countries, it may interest the House to know that the first country which made moral instruction a vital and organic part of elementary school life was France. In 1882 moral instruction became the essential part of elementary school life. In 1890 far-off Japan followed suit, and introduced into its schools moral instruction so efficient, so universal, so welcomed by teachers, by pupils, and by public opinion that I think no Japanese at this time of day would be found to deny the important part which it has played with reference to national character. I have a letter from the Japanese Minister of Education, written soon after the close of the Russo-Japanese War, in which he claims part of the success of that wonderful achievement for the moral instruction which for many years had been given in Japanese schools. Hon. Members who have read the excellent report of Mr. Thiselton Mark on moral instruction in the United States will not need to be reminded that there is a large amount of moral instruction given in many of the States of the United States. Those of us who are more interested in what goes on in our own possessions may be told that in many parts of Canada and Australia moral instruction has shown most interesting development. In the schools of Mysore, in India, moral instruction is given three mornings of the week. The second landmark of the growth of interest and of the recognition of the importance of moral instruction is to be found in the foundation and the activity of the Moral Instruction League. That league was founded in 1897, and during the 12 years that have elapsed between now and then it has made its influence felt in every part of the British Islands. Professor Mackenzie, whose authority I need hardly dilate upon, said that the Moral Instruction League has behind it a record of solid achievement. Nobody who knows the work and the success of the league will doubt that. By its books, by its model lessons, by its syllabuses, which have been taken over bodily by local authorities, the Moral Instruction League has done more than any single organisation to interest educational and public opinion in the question of moral instruction. The third indication of the growth of opinion is the action of local authorities. It may be news to certain hon. Members that at the present time 60 local authorities are already carrying out systematic moral instruction in our schools. I have a return here which was drawn up by the Moral Instruction League last autumn. It can be obtained for one shilling. It sets forth the local authorities which give moral instruction, and it gives in each case the form and method in which the moral instruction is given. The fourth indication that I will refer to is the introduction of the subject of moral instruction into the Code. Early in the life of the present Parliament Members in this House who are interested in moral instruction met with the view of considering what it was possible to do in connection with the subject. A deputation was appointed to wait upon the then President of the Board of Education—now the Chief Secretary for Ireland. I was one of the deputation. We went to the right hon. Gentleman. We found him very sympathetic, and the result was that in the Code of 1906 moral education received not only honourable mention but something more. These words appear in the Code of 1906: "Moral instruction should form an important part of the curriculum of every elementary school." It further said that it should be "direct, systematic, and graduated." That was very satisfactory as far as it went. Before that passage appeared in the Code of 1906 about 30 local authorities had already made arrangements to give moral instruction, and since it had appeared about 30 more have followed. The fifth indication of the growth of this world-wide recognition of the importance of the subject is to be found in the very remarkable international inquiry which was carried out under the auspices of a Committee which was formed in the same year as the year of the introduction of the subject into the Code— namely, 1906.

In 1906 a number of men of different churches and different parties, and of different educational methods, met together with the view of considering whether it was possible to develope systematic moral instruction in our elementary schools. Very soon an appeal was issued to a large number of influential men and women, and the response was very remarkable. Several hundreds of influential names were speedily collected. Amongst the number were several bishops. There were, for instance, the present Archbishop of York and the Bishop of Ripon; also such well-known educational experts as Mr. James Bryce, Sir E. Fry, Sir Oliver Lodge, Dr. Paton, and others. Amongst the number were men of all creeds, including Roman Catholics. All these men concurred in the necessity and the desirability of international inquiry. An inquiry was put on foot. It was divided into two parts. In the first place it was decided to inquire into what was being done in our own country, and, secondly, what was being done abroad. Experts were employed and sent abroad, and, as a result of two years' hard work, two volumes were published last autumn with a very remarkable introduction. Anybody who doubts the extent and the reality of the interest in this subject all over the world—everybody who is ignorant of the extent to which not only educationalists but ethical teachers and professors in training colleges feel an interest in this subject may be recommended to read all or part of these two substantial, interesting, and very instructive volumes. The upshot of this inquiry, carried on by men and women of widely different ideals, both in politics and religion, is to be found in the following words:— after two years hard work, and after having before them the result of inquiries in every country in the world. The sixth and last indication of this growing interest, is, I need hardly say, to be found in the great congress that met in London last September. The first International Congress on moral education, which met in London last year, was, I need hardly remind hon. Members, under Government patronage. A very considerable number of Governments sent representatives. The congress was attended by men and women of acknowledged eminence both in the theory and practice of education. Its debates were followed by an exceptionally large number of people. The papers written for it were written not only by English men and women, but by a large number of men and women who are well known on the Continent, either as professors of philosophy or ethics, or people holding official positions in the educational departments of different Governments, or in connection with teaching and administration. The volume of papers published by that Congress, will, if carefully studied, clear up any doubts that may beset the minds of hon. Members as to the reality of the demand, and as to the widespread need for giving a more prominent place to instruction in personal and civic duties in the schools of our country. Now having tried to indicate briefly some of the main landmarks in the progress of moral instruction in England, I propose, very briefly indeed, to state, and to reply to, what appear to me to be the commonest objections which are made to moral instruction. The first, and one of the commonest, is—I do not state them necessarily in the order of their importance—that we cannot teach morality. Many people who do not know what strides the movement has made, and who do not know what implements we have in the way of educational books, still have the idea that moral instruction is largely a pretext for something necessarily of a sermonising character, and that it is still regarded as likely to result in breeding a generation of little prigs. It is perfectly obvious to anyone who knows anything about the modern methods of child study that this objection has no ground whatever. Anybody who has anything to do with child study or the teaching of children in schools or anywhere else knows by this time what to avoid, not only in connection with moral instruction, but in con- nection with all other subjects. Instead of acting by precept we must go by illustration; instead of laying down categorical rules we must proceed by suggestion; the teacher must awake the child's instinctive reflectiveness, to use the term of pedagogy, the process is one of auto-suggestion. It is a long word, but it exactly expresses the idea to be aimed at by teachers of morality and of conduct. You must also avoid negatives, and go in for positives; the teacher must not confine himself to saying what the child must not do. He must suggest positive action by reference to life, to the great deeds of history, to mythology, to legend and to literature. Now, I say that this objection that you cannot teach morality breaks down completely as soon as you begin to study the modern methods which will bf, found in large numbers of books now in use. If Members scepticism survive that proof, then I suggest that they should attend one of those moral lessons which are given by experts very often in London and elsewhere, and I think they will find, in the words of the present Chief Secretary for Ireland— words used when he was at the Board of Education—that." rationally conducted moral instruction can be made a very real and a very live thing." The last point I want to make in connection with this first objection is this: that in addition—I do not want to deliver a lecture on Moral Philosophy, but I want to bring out this point —in addition to the instinctive element in character there is also a reflective element, which the teacher should try to reach and elevate and call forth. A considerable number of the temptations of youth arise from thoughtlessness, from want of thought, from want of guidance, and I say there is an opportunity if properly seized by a successful and sympathetic teacher for suggestive guidance. The second common objection is that morality must be taught at home or by the Church. That argument has been heard so often in other connections that I really do not think it is worth while noticing it.

If we were to argue it we should have to say that many children learn only evil things at home, and many children never come under the influence of any church; and I would go further, and say that even children with good homes and even children in connection with some church have still a good deal to learn, and may still learn a good deal in class from a carefully instructed teacher.

I reach a more difficult and a more controversial point. I have tried briefly to discuss two common objections to moral instruction. I now reach the third, viz., that it is hostile to religion. I find this argument—I say this with all courtesy —comes only from people in and out of the House who have never spent very much time in looking into the question of moral instruction, and are not fully aware what it is, what it involves and what is actually being done at the present time in hundreds of schools in our country. I see from an Amendment which has been put down on the paper that my hon. Friend opposite has this objection in his mind. Without going into the subject in any detail, I should like to say my Resolution in no way antagonises religion. It in no way antagonises anybody's faith, be it theological or ethical; we only put forward the demand that moral instruction be complementary and supplementary to the, religious instruction which is put forward in our schools. If I said anything more it would only be this, that when I speak of the national character of this movement, this demand which I am putting forward to night has the enthusiastic support of a large number of Churchmen and of a large number of the leading Nonconformists such as Dr. Paton and Dr. Clifford, men whose personal piety, men whose interest in the religious life of the State is beyond suspicion. It is hardly likely that men like these would support moral instruction if it was hostile to the faith they hold dear. I will only mention one more point of interest. A syllabus of moral instruction has been drawn up by Canon Bernard, of Salisbury, and is at the present time in use under the Wilts education authority.

I want to explain how and why it is that men of many different faiths are able to agree for practical purposes on the teaching of moral instruction. I will once more quote the very important words of Professor Sadler: "We have an ideal of practical morality which can be taken as a basis for school teaching by teachers of almost all schools of thought." I believe those words represent the exact truth. Members of this House and school teachers all over the country and all over the world no doubt differ as to the sanctions of morality and the sanctions of moral teaching. Some will find it in Revelation; others will find it in the inner life; others will find it in the slow and irresistible evolution of social needs. That is quite unimportant from the point of view of agreeing what moral instruction shall be given, and if any hon. Members care to carry out this train of reflection further than I can carry it tonight, perhaps I might recommend them to peruse "The Methods of Ethics" of my old master, Professor Sidgwick, in which, after an analysis of extraordinary power and penetration, he reaches the result that there is what he calls a morality of common-sense. What I am asking for in my Resolution to-night is the teaching in elementary schools of what Professor Henry Sidgwick called the morality of common-sense.

The fourth objection is that you cannot separate moral instruction from religious teaching. I have already tried to show that there is no antagonism whatever between my Resolution and the faith of any single person, and on this point I should like to refer to a very interesting speech made by the present Chief Secretary for Ireland in 1906, during the debates on the Education Bill, in which he pointed out in an unanswerable manner that there are other sanctions besides religious sanctions for conduct, and the most important of all is what he called social sanction. Those who recollect those debates have a lively recollection of the vivid way in which he brought home the reality of the bearing of that sanction. I have put down here a number of virtues which we shall all agree ought to be taught; must be taught somewhere and somehow. I cannot see that there is any difficulty whatever in separating them from the giving of religious instruction. I will read them out, not in the order of their importance, but haphazard: "Cleanliness of mind, body, and speech, temperance, gratitude, courage, patience, perseverance, truthfulness, modesty, courtesy, fair play, gentleness, kindness to animals." It is perfectly ridiculous for any one to say that you cannot give instruction in relation to these great feelings without having a religious lesson and without bringing in the whole of what I may call the religious question and the metaphysical aspect of religious life. Many of these virtues which I have read out are taken from the code, and are recommended as being perfectly suitable for moral instruction.

In closing I have only to specify the exact nature of the demand which my Resolution makes. It is a double demand. The first part asks that moral instruction should be given efficiently in every elementary school. I leave it vague as to when it should be given advisedly. I say that it should be given efficiently in every school, but I do not say when it should be given. I do not say that it is to be given necessarily in the first hour. I do not say that it is to be given necessarily in the secular time. I do not say that it is to be given necessarily in every class of every school. I simply say that it shall be given in every school. There is a very great difference of opinion, I need hardly say, as to the best time to give moral instruction. In some schools it is given in the first hour, in other schools it is given in the last hour of the week—the last half-hour of Friday afternoon. My own view, and I am now speaking only for myself, is that the best time for moral instruction—instruction in moral, personal and civic duty, is the first hour of the day. I have always thought that there is something very fine in this pushing age of ours in setting apart the first half-hour of every school day for the formation of character and the claims of the higher life, and my own feeling is that moral instruction should be given once a week during the first hour of the day.

That is no part of my Resolution, and that must clearly be left to the local authority. I ask that provision should be made in the code, by which I mean that whereas now, according to the action of the present Chief Secretary in 1906, it is only a recommended subject, although strongly recommended, I desire that it should become a compulsory subject. In other words, I desire that it should be taken from its present position in the code, and put high up among the subjects soon after, if not directly after, the three R's.

The second part of my Resolution asks that adequate provision should be made for the training of the teacher. I fully realise that the personality of the teacher is of perhaps more importance in regard to this subject that almost any other. The more difficult the subject is the more does the personality of the teacher come in. The teacher will make or mar the subject in the same way that he now makes or mars the history lesson. History badly taught can be intolerable. It can be worse than useless. It can make the child hate it for ever afterwards. Moral instruction badly given would be worse than useless. It could make the child long to do the very things against which the teacher warns him. I am perfectly aware that in training the ideal teacher, whatever you can do for him or her in the training college will not be enough. You must have a natural instinct, a sympathy, an insight into the imaginative world of the child, without which all instruction and all lectures are perfectly useless. But assuming, as I think we may, the existence in, at any rate, many teachers of this imaginative sympathy and insight, it is highly desirable that they should be further trained than they are now in this great task of helping to mould the ideas and the character of their pupils. Quite recently the teaching of hygiene, a very important subject, has been made compulsory in the training colleges, and I think it would be a very curious logic which would defend the inclusion of hygiene and decree the exclusion of moral instruction. We therefore ask, without going into any details, without desiring to dictate to the Board of Education, that more opportunities shall be given in the training colleges, partly by a development of the curriculum under the head of psychology or under the special heading of moral instruction. We desire also that the practice which is now very commonly pursued under private initiative of giving moral instruction lessons in the training colleges should be officially recognised and officially supported, in order that the teacher may see the moral lesson carried out by somebody who can do it well, and someone who will show the possibility of a moral lesson being properly given. Having asked for the training of a teacher, I should then desire that the teacher should have as full liberty as possible, using the syllabus when he likes and using the books when he likes, and that he should be as free as possible to draw his illustrations and his inspirations from whatever sources he likes. I therefore ask for two definite things—moral instruction in every school and further training of the teachers. I have been most clear not to commit myself, and not to attempt to bind the House to any details in regard to either the one or the other. I appeal to the President of the Board of Education to signalise his tenure of one of the most important offices of State by putting his hand to a reform which is not only, I believe, of vital importance to the schools of this country, but which also possesses a very considerable additional advantage in not requiring any Parliamentary time to effect.

, in seconding the motion, said: "I gladly comply with the request of my hon. Friend that I should second the motion which he has proposed in a very earnest and interesting speech, and I gladly associate myself with the line of action which he has pressed upon the President of the Board of Education so moderately and so cogently. I do not think even on a Parliamentary day, charged with the excitement and stress of the declaration of a new naval programme by the Government, private Members' time could be better occupied than in discussing the question of how best to formulate a complete, symmetrical, and full system of education in our elementary schools. Indeed the programme we are discussing is nothing less than how best to form the characters of the citizens of to-morrow. I do not imagine that the proposition will admit of contradiction that no system of education can be complete and symmetrical which does not include moral instruction. In the very first words of the introduction to the Code of the current year I find this:—

We are in danger possibly of over-accentuating the physical aspect at the present time when physical culture and education are so much to the front. If that is cultivated to excess we tend to produce rather a good animal than a good man. Again, if the intellectual side of education is unduly emphasised no doubt we gain knowledge. We are reminded that knowledge is power, but we ought also to remember that knowledge is power over nature and not over ourselves.

In order to complete the symmetry of education moral instruction is required, and I think one great educationist laid it down that no person can be said to be thoroughly well educated who is not able to do what he ought to do, when he ought to do it, and whether he wants to do it or not. I quite agree with the Mover of the Resolution as to the relation between moral and religious instruction. I should be the last to deny that religion gives force and colour and sanction and sanctity to all moral instruction, but there is, as the mover indicated, a large gap which is not filled up at the present time. With hygiene on the one hand and religion on the other, there is a large intermediate realm occupied by such instruction as cleanliness of the person, physical exercise and drill, orderliness and punctuality in the performance of duties, fortitude, kindness, good manners, self-respect, and self-sacrifice. These form an ascending series. If, on the one hand, you admit that moral instruction has its base in the physical and physiological, you must also admit on the other hand that its crown is religion.

As the Mover truly said, there is nothing antitethic between moral and religious instruction. It cannot be said that such moral instruction as is contemplated in this Resolution is opposed by any denomination. As the Mover said, it is already given in the schools of some 100 out of 327 local authorities. In the code of the current year, it is indicated that moral instruction may be given in one of two ways. It may permeate the whole education, and be given, as it were, with other instruction, or the moral instruction may be given by a definite and systematic lesson taking its place in the time-table of the school. I venture to think if you are to give moral instruction it is necessary to make it definite and systematic, otherwise what is everybody's duty is nobody's duty, and what can be done at any time is very apt to be done at no time. I agree with the latter part of the Resolution, which calls attention to the need for further training for teachers. Probably in moral instruction more than in anything else we may be reminded of the old adage: "Thou therefore that teachest another and teachest thou not thyself?" Too great stress cannot be laid on the necessity for adequate courses of training of the teachers who are to impart moral instruction. I agree that the personality of the teacher has a great deal to do with the results as to the efficiency of his teaching. I think it was Thring, of Uppingham, who used to say, "Teaching is the life-long learning of how to deal with human minds."

No doubt in the case of moral instruction the personality of the teacher is of even more importance than in the case of dealing with intellectual or physical instruction. I do not understand that this motion is in any sense hostile to the action which the Board of Education has already taken. I was one of the deputation referred to by my hon. Friend that waited on the Chief Secretary for Ireland when he was President of the Board when moral instruction was first introduced into the code. It is implied in the "Suggestions to teachers," issued by the Board, that the moral training ought not to be left to chance. The purpose of the teacher must be clearly conceived and intelligently carried out. It is not to be left to chance. I submit that this teaching should have a definite place in the time table of every local educational authority. In the case of religious instruction, of course, owing to religious controversies, religious instruction cannot take its place in the regular time-table, and it is a subject as to which the proficiency of the teacher is not adequately ascertained. None of these things apply to moral instruction, which I submit should take its place in the timetable of every public elementary school. The motion is intended not to be hostile, but to strengthen and encourage the efforts which the Board of Education have already made to extend moral instruction throughout the public elementary schools. I venture to hope that that effort may not be arrested, but that it may be continued and strengthened, and that in an age in which we are apt to lay undue stress upon physical culture and the pursuit of pleasure and possibly also on intellectual cramming we may lay due stress on the imparting of moral instruction in our schools.

moved, as an Amendment, to leave out from "House" to the end, and to add "moral instruction is best given in conjunction with religious instruction, and therefore the regulations for the training of teachers should be such as to secure the giving of both moral and religious instruction in elementary schools."

He said: I must confess I had some difficulty in understanding the precise meaning of the proposition which stands on the paper in the name of the hon. Member for Bath, and that difficulty has not been removed by the speech which he has made advocating the giving of moral instruction, as if moral instruction were a new thing and as if it had never been given before. But we find that when moral instruction is given in our schools it is in what to my mind is the best and the only way in which it can be given—that is in conjunction with religious instruction. Therefore, when the hon. Member advocates the giving of moral instruction I am driven to the conclusion that he means moral instruction apart from and independent of religious instruction: in other words, that the teaching of morality and the teaching of religion should be divorced.

I must protest against that as a complete misrepresentation of my entire speech.

If the hon. Member is satisfied with moral instruction as now given in connection with religious instruction, why does he find it necessary to bring forward his proposal? I have listened to his speech and that of the Seconder of his Resolution to see what they advocate should be given that is not now given, and I find that they advocate such matters as teaching hygiene and cleanliness. But I should have thought that these matters would come under the head of domestic economy rather than that of morality. The hon. Member said in the course of his speech that he proposed to supplement the teaching already given in elementary schools. If that is so, if he does not desire to interfere with the religious teaching at present given in our schools, and merely wishes these other subjects to be supplementary to that I have no objection whatever to his proposals. Is that his meaning?

I cannot repeat a large part of my speech, but I tried to show that there were a large number of subjects which, in my opinion, are not given adequately and sometimes not at all in the religious hour. I think they ought to be given, and that is one of the reasons why I brought forward my Motion.

If the hon. Member will accept my Amendment I will accept his Resolution. Does he propose to set up moral instruction for the religious and moral instruction at present given in our schools?

I desire in schools where moral instruction is not given as a separate subject at a separate time that it should be given in a separate hour. I desire that the instruction should include those subjects I have mentioned. I desire that the illustrations and precepts which seem necessary to the teacher in order to make that teaching effective should be derived from religious sources, from literary sources, and, in fact, from all other sources.

The hon. Member's explanation shows that his idea of moral instruction covers a much wider field than the view taken by his Seconder. Does he intend moral instruction to be given and eventually substituted for the moral instruction given in connection with religious instruction? If that is the case, why can he not accept my Amendment? I am afraid I must insist upon my Amendment in order to clear the ground. If moral instruction is to be used as a step to substitute religious instruction it seems to me to be the first step on the pathway of secular education.

What does the hon. Member mean by morality? There never has been any universally accepted standard of morality in the world, and it has always been different at different stages of the world's history. In this country I do not think there is any agreement as to what morality is, and I imagine you could not get the individualist and the Socialist to agree upon the same system of morals. Therefore, I ask the hon. Member opposite what he understands by morality, and what is the morality he desires to provide. I am told it is the morality of common-sense, but what is common-sense? I have never known anybody give a clear definition of it, but it practically means what everybody thinks is right. Each person is to judge for himself, and what he thinks to be proper and fitting he takes to be common-sense. That is a very vague thing, and I do not think it would satisfy the people of this country because they are a Christian people, and they will not be satisfied with anything short of the teaching of Christian morality in our schools. If the hon. Member thinks that the people of this country will accept the morality of common-sense as a substitute for Christian morality he will find not only the churches but the entire nation against him.

How are we to keep Christian morality? We cannot keep it without keeping Christian doctrine, because the two are fundamentally connected. You might as well plant a tree by the branches with its roots up in the air and expect it to grow as to expect Christian morality to flourish without Christian doctrine. Christianity is not a mere plea and it is not a system of morals, but it is a guide and spirit, and it is only by teaching morality in the light of the Founder of the Christian religion that you can arouse in the mind of the child a reverence for love and morality. How can we possibly instil into the mind of a man a feeling of love for his fellow men without first teaching him the doctrines of the Christian religion? Supposing the morality of common-sense is set up in our schools, what authority have you for it? What authority have you for teaching the child your maxims and your syllabus of moral instructions? When a child is young he accepts and learns by heart those maxims, but when he comes to years of discretion he naturally asks what authority is there for this system of morality in which he has been brought up. When he finds it is on the authority of the district council or the education committee I do not think he will have very much respect for that morality. What motive power is there in such moral teachings to get a child to accept it and carry it out? These things have no power in themselves, and a power must be given from another source and from other motives to enable the child to carry out and know that which he has been taught is right. There are two defects in what the hon. Member proposes, namely, want of authority and want of impelling power, both of which are supplied by religion and by religion only. Religion teaches .a man to look to a higher power, and you can only teach him his duty to his fellow man in that way.

With regard to France in recent years, on account of the interference of the Church, there has been a violent reaction against religion, and it has been driven out of the school. That may be necessary and justifiable in such countries as France, but it certainly is not necessary or desirable in this country. In Japan the circumstances are very peculiar, because there the Emperor himself is regarded as a superhuman being. In this case what you might call moral teaching is no doubt religious teaching. Now I will just say this: I cannot help feeling that the thought that is behind the hon. Member's remarks is due to the fact that people are tired of the religious difficulty. They seem to think there is no way out of this, and as a counsel of despair they propose to resort to moral instruction as a substitute for the moral and religious instruction now given. I think it would be a fatal error to give up the fundamental teaching of religion in our schools, and the realities that spring from religion on account of the minor difficulties that divide the various sects. After all, they are minor differences. The great body of religion has nothing whatever to do with them. I believe this religious difficulty will be settled before very many years have passed. I think the present Minister of Education has gone on in the right path in endeavouring to compromise and conciliate, and it is only by a policy of conciliation that the religious difficulty can be settled. The Church will have to give up a portion of its rights. The Free Churches will have to abate their grievances. Roman Catholics will have to moderate their demands. When this is done I see nothing whatever to prevent the parties coming together. At all events, the present Minister of Education has carried us far in that direction. We all hope he may yet see the end of it. I was very glad to hear the observations that fell from him the other day when he said he would never be a party to the withdrawal of the Bible from the schools. Depend upon it that all this—I do not wish to use the word disrespectfully—but all this "high falutin'" about moral philosophy and ethical sanction will have very little influence upon the child-life. The best text-book of morality which has ever been written is the Bible, because you find in the Bible not merely dry statements with regard to moral and ethical doctrine, but you find virtue and vice so set forth, so illustrated and exemplified by character, that the child insensibly prefers that which is right. That that is the proper way to appeal to the child mind—not from the abstract to the concrete, but from the concrete to the abstract. Therefore, if we want to teach morality in this country, and to teach it efficiently, I say stick to the Bible; teach it from the Bible. You will find it better than any of those grand text-books, philosophical writings of which we have heard to-night. The proper course is to wait, and endeavour to work out a solution of this question which will be satisfactory to all parties, which I believe will come in time, if we will only wait and strive for it.

I second the Amendment. I think our nation has risen to its present position as distinctly a Christian nation, and it is only by the Bible that a Christian nation will proceed to prosperity in the future. The Christian doctrines that we learned in our childhood have become modified, by the teachings of science, and we have come to see that Christianity is a part of the great process of evolution— a necessary part—and any education that does not recognise that is impotent and sterile. We cannot be a great nation merely by inculcating morality. The Seconder of this Resolution has expressed his willingness to accept the original Motion tacked on to his own. I would certainly agree with that. There is so much in common now with all great systems of religion that it is pleasant to see that there is a spirit, which we may call Christian—to find a great common denominator of that which we are all agreed upon. We are agreed upon truthfulness, kindliness, and so on. But some of us think the individual mind is best affected by having some definite ideal before it—that of prayer and worship, as embodied in the Christian religion, as well as the great idea of a Creative Spirit of the world, which has been implanted in the minds of human beings.

Question proposed: "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question."

The subject is peculiarly one which it is difficult to apply and set forth to the House, whether by Bill, by Resolution, or by Amendment. It is a question of magnitude, a question of difficulty, largely a question of metaphysics, mainly a question of practical application, and I should hope that the right hon. Gentleman would hesitate before he ties himself down to any form upon this matter, whether it be a Resolution or an Amendment, or the one tacked on to the other. I listened with the greatest admiration and sympathy to the speeches of the Mover and Seconder, and I thought how delightful, how beautiful, how right, how everyone in the House would rejoice to see what they asked for accomplished every day in every class, in every school in the country. And while sympathising thoroughly with the ideal, I became aware of the thought of earth. I saw the picture which my hon. Friends painted so skilfully, with so much hope and earnestness of what schools ought to be in matters of this kind, and I looked into hundreds and thousands of schools in the country in which I have been, and saw the real thing that exists, and is likely to exist, in this country for many years to come. I saw the schools of this country being taught by teachers, a great portion of whom—so-called teachers—are little more in age than children themselves; of whom another large fraction, if not mere children in age, are little more than elder children in their mental development and in their educational cultivation.

I saw a larger fraction which consists of adults who were educated to a certain pitch, who have passed examinations, and who have been certificated. I saw that larger fraction still confronted every day with the difficulties of huge classes of children, of frequent and irregular absences upon the part of a large percentage of children, all those influences, too often diverse, and I said to myself, "How can we in this country bring about the realisation of the ideal?" I saw, further, that after the time allotted to school hymns, to prayer, to worship, to the Scripture lesson, to the recreation in the playground, and the dismissal of the school morning and evening, the teacher had at disposal no more than two hours in the morning and a little less than two hours in the afternoon, during five days of the week, during some forty-five weeks in the year, and during, as a rule, some eight, seven, or even six years of the school life of a particular child. For these two hours in the morning, and of these two hours in the afternoon, I saw the time-table so crossed and crisscrossed with lines, making demarcations allotting out periods of 10, 20, and 25 minutes for this lesson or the other lesson, as to make the time-table resemble a series of tennis courts seen from a flying machine. I have asked myself, "How is this additional teaching demanded by this Motion to be introduced into the course of the school?" The difficulty is a real and practical difficulty. The Mover and Seconder of the Amendment have the best meaning in the world, except the meaning of my hon. Friend who moved and seconded the Motion, which is a meaning equally good. I would point out, however, that the meaning of hon. Members opposite, and of the hon. Members behind me, do to some extent conflict; if they do not conflict, they confuse, making it very difficult indeed, if not impossible, to the majority of schools to carry out what is proposed by the Motion. The hon. Member who seconded the Motion quoted Dr. Thring, that great man who did what Dr. Arnold did at Rugby in his day. Dr. Thring was an educationalist in practice successfully as well as in theory intellectually. There is one saying of his which cannot be too strongly commended to anybody who thinks about education and the means of carrying it out in the best way. He said: "It does not matter 'what' you teach; it matters everything 'how' you teach." I would impress that upon the minds of my hon. Friends who may perhaps lay a little too much stress upon the "what" and a little less stress than they ought to do on the "how."

But I wish I could say that the teachers in the public elementary school were as free to deal with the "how" in teaching as was Dr. Thring or Arnold of Rugby. It is a matter of biography chronicled, on record, that the sermons in Rugby School were not always sermons in the technical sense of the term. It is certainly true about the lessons in the Charterhouse and a great many of the headmasters in the schools to-day are in the same position. A Thring or an Arnold you can have, but to deal with patriotism, to inculcate an abstract question without necessarily having to refer at all to some passages in Scripture or an article in the Creed or in the Catechism—unfortunately it is the case that the teacher is not free to do that.

If it be a denominational school, occupation for the teacher during the first part of the day, the time named, is laid down for him very clearly in the diocesan syllabus. The diocesan inspector visits the school and would be much more likely to condemn the teacher if any portion of the rota work, the mechanical work, described in the syllabus, has not been in the opinion of the inspector thoroughly done while he will be in danger for giving an additional lesson, and making the mind of the child play about the whole subject in the way my hon. Friend behind me would prefer. If the school be not denominational but a council school, though it is free from catechisms and articles in the Creed, it is subject, too, to a long syllabus, and as a rule a rather complex syllabus, a syllabus that contains a large number of passages from Scripture which are memorised, a long list of parables and miracles, of which every particular must be known, a number of chapters from the Gospels or Epistles must be read and studied in a way which is too often too literary or too grammatical or too detached for the meaning which the passages themselves were intended to convey, to make them fertile in modern instruction. Then, again, in the council school comes the inspector, who reports upon the work that is done. An appeal is made to the Board of Education that there shall be in every training school systematic training of teachers in the science, art, and practice of moral instruction. I can imagine an admirable young teacher, after having gone through a long, complete, and efficient course of instruction in this subject, entering a denominational school and immediately finding that all the time that can possibly be spared from the exigencies of the Board of Education and its inspectors for giving any teaching of the kind suggested is already required for the "horrid grind" of the necessary preparation for the diocesan inspector and the fulfilment in letter, if not in spirit, of the syllabus imposed on every school in the diocese. Or if he enters a council school he may find very much the same state of things with regard to the long and exhaustive syllabuses imposed upon the teacher, whether he wishes it or not, Therefore, I say that the practical question, in addition to the difficulties of the-brief hours, short school life, large classes, and often incompetent teachers, is, even with the best teachers and in the best schools, the question of time. Some Members may have supposed, from the very presence of this Motion on the Order Paper, that no moral instruction as distinct from scriptural instruction was now given in the schools. The Mover and Seconder carefully dissociated themselves from that view. In every school, in every class, on every day, indirect moral education of great value is being provided. My hon. Friends ask for more than that. They ask for what they call direct moral instruction. The question is one of time— When? The Motion might be adopted by the present Board of Education, and this additional subject forced on the schools. That is the danger to which I wish to direct attention. It is no new thing for an instruction to appear in the Code that the kind of teaching asked for by my hon. Friend should be given in the schools. It did not appear for the first time in the Code of 1906. In a terser and, I think, a more elegant form reference to the duty of the teacher in this matter has appeared in the Code for many years past. It was varied. Some three years before the date mentioned by my hon. Friend it was given in a longer and more elaborate form, and the teacher could inculcate by lesson and by example, truth, honour, and the other virtues which have been so excellently catalogued by my hon. Friend. It has always been stated in the Code. It has always been present in the school work, and when one compares the condition of the people to-day with that which story writers, newspapers, and other contemporary chroniclers say was the condition of the people in those days before we had this in the schools one may fairly say that the work done in the schools has not been without good, and that the work of the teachers has had a good influence, hampered though it has been by the adverse conditions I have referred to. Much of the influence desiderated by my hon. Friend has been obtained. It has been obtained in two ways. You have the permeation of the discipline, the teachers' precept and example, the appeals to do right, and the punishment when those appeals have been disobeyed. That has gone through the whole of the school life, and you have the influence of the morning hymn, the evening hymn, the morning prayer, and the evening prayer, which is mainly in itself a hallowing and awing influence on the children. Then you have those lessons in which the children have been free—comparatively few lessons—from the trammels—I say it with the greatest deference to the views which I know are held in all parts of the House very strongly—free, from the teacher's point of view, from the trammels, if I may use the term without offence, of Creeds, Catechisms, and Articles, long biographical passages out of the Old Testament, and long passages put into the mouths of children abounding in abstruse theological terms arrived at after much disputation, and which have been quarrelled about by everybody ever since. These trammels result in a mechanical form of instruction, which is the worst of all forms. These are difficulties which have to be met in trying to do what the Mover of the Motion proposes. While my sympathies are not in opposition to the Motion, I do wish to press these views upon the consideration of the House, and particularly upon my right hon. Friend. If in addition to the permeating and persuasive discipline to which I have referred we are to have one, two, or three lessons per week of half an hour or three-quarters of an hour in length, I think to make them effective they must be delivered during that part of the time in the school which is now spent in religious and moral teaching under the older sanction.

This was brought about by the reconsideration of the syllabuses, many of which are very old. Something ought to be done and must be done. After all the effective power in this matter rests in the hands of the teacher. You may set the teacher to do this, and you may compel him to do it, but you will not have it done unless you have his sympathy. There will be very great danger in the carrying out of this work if the teachers feel that they are compelled to do what cannot be properly done.

I beg my hon. Friend not to tie the House down to a hard-and-fast line, but to be content with a sympathetic feeling for the Motion before the House. I ask him to be content with a desire to see how it can be done. I think he will find that the object of the Motion will be best attained if he confines moral instruction to those hours which are outside the statutory hours for secular instruction.

I expected to hear from the Mover of this Resolution a very clear exposition of his, views, and of the views of those with whom he associates; and we have not been disappointed. I think that everybody in the House will agree with the ideal of the Mover and Seconder of the Motion. I was very much struck by an article written by a German in one of our monthly reviews on our elementary system and our secondary education. The criticism was thus—that in our elementary schools we devoted all our attention to the mind and not to the character, and that in our secondary schools we devoted our attention to the character rather than to the intellect. I think it is rather a fair criticism. So far as the Mover of this Resolution has called attention to the training of character in our elementary schools, I am entirely in sympathy with him. From some of the remarks made, and certainly from the remarks of the hon. Member for Nottingham who spoke last, one cannot help being led to the view that this proposal is being brought forward, and is supported by, a large number of people who wish to see this moral instruction substituted for religious instruction in our schools. The last speaker definitely and fairly said so, and the Mover of the Resolution made the remark that they thought it would be advisable that this moral instruction should be given during the first hour of the school day.

That would be in substitution for the religious lesson on one day a week, and, therefore, he cannot claim, as I understood him to claim, that he did not in any way wish to substitute moral instruction for religious instruction. If it is intended to substitute moral instruction for religious, so far as I am concerned, I could not possibly support it. I should like to get a little more information on the point from those in favour of moral instruction. Are they all agreed it should be given in some one definite hour as a definite lesson every week of the child's school life? There seems to be some vagueness on the part of the Proposer. The Seconder seemed to indicate clearly that he thought one hour a week should be given to the moral teaching. One hour is to be given to moral teaching, and all the other hours to immoral. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh."] What I was going to point out, and what I think a good many hon. Members who are so anxious to misunderstand what I say, will see if they have a little patience, is that in my opinion the best way to improve the moral instruction in the school is to let it run through every lesson. It can be given with more effect and success if carried through every lesson—in history, geography, and every other lesson—and what I meant by saying one hour a week for moral instruction and other hours for immoral, was I did not want to see the moral lesson crammed into one hour in the week. To carry the matter further, I say if it is properly taught in the ordinary lessons then I do not think there is any need for a special hour for it. A great many virtues were read out by the Mover of the Resolution as resulting from moral teaching, but there is not one of them that could not be taught as part of the religious lesson, and a good many of them could be taught as part of the other lessons. He told us he wished this moral teaching to be taught according to any form of inspiration which the teacher might derive. Supposing the teacher derived his inspiration of morality from an Oriental source, for example, would the hon. Gentleman wish morality of that kind to be taught in the schools or would he exclude it? There is a morality which recommends more than one wife. Would that, according to his view, be a form of morality which could be legitimately taught in a school because the teacher thought it was a good proposal? If not, then he must confine himself to some particular form of religion, and I should very much like to hear how that is to be done. I have taken an extreme case, but if you give way on that one case, you will be obliged to give way on a great many others.

The hon. Member did mention in his speech something about teaching civic duty. Now there I think it might be possible to give a definite hour's teaching, and not only civic duties but civic rights— the rights which children ought to know that they possess now, or that they will possess as citizens when they are grown up. I think this might very well be taught under the school curriculum, but that seems to be totally distinct from the general subject of moral instruction with which the hon. Member dealt in his speech. Of course, people are ever ready to dogmatise about teaching, and the hon. Gentleman was inclined to lay down the law. He said everybody who knew anything about teaching knew about auto-suggestion— that horrible word—and the heuristic method of which we have heard—another horrible method. We heard a great number of expressions of that sort, but I think anybody who has had anything to do with the teaching of his own children or those of others will know if he has learned anything that he cannot lay down a rule on any single point at all. The fact is, the whole point depends upon the teacher, and I agree with him that the teacher should have as much liberty as possible with regard to this moral instruction. It has been said that more attention should be given in training colleges to the training of teachers to give moral instruction. I can hardly believe that in any well-regulated training college that some sort of instruction is not given in that already. It seems to me that that is one of the elementary things which should be taught to a teacher that he should throughout all lessons "point a moral and adorn a tale," and although the hon. Gentleman wishes for more of it, he does not wish to suggest that that kind of teaching should be left out. Having said this, I feel in great difficulty about how to vote, because I cannot help feeling that it would be possible to introduce a little more training of character beyond the religious lesson, and therefore I should hardly like to tie myself down to the Amendment. On the other hand, I feel great difficulty in voting with the hon. Gentleman opposite, because I can see perfectly well that he is being supported in his Resolution by a very large number of people who want to see this a substitute, and not an addition, to religious instruction.

The hon. Member for Nottingham, in his very interesting speech, left me, until he came to the end, somewhat in despair, because he drew a picture of the teacher which was almost hopeless, because my hon. Friend only suggested that there should be part of an hour in one week. If our educational system has got to such a state that we could not reorganise it to the extent of making provision for that, surely it must be in a very bad way. But towards the close of his speech he seemed to me to recognise that we are asking not for set terms, but simply that moral instruction shall form part of the curriculum in all schools. We should not think it wise at all to say to the President of the Board of Education that we have got a certain set scheme which we want him to accept. The hon. Member for Shropshire I think approached this question in a very fair spirit, although at first when he talked about moral and immoral instruction we did not quite know where he was going to. But one saw afterwards that he did not use the latter word in the sense that some of us took it.

It has been made perfectly plain in the speech of the Mover that it was not an attempt to substitute moral for religious instruction. My hon. Friend below me does not support secular education. Some of us do, but that is not the question raised at all. I should just as strongly want a system of moral instruction if we had a secular system, as I believe it is needed at the present time, and I think hon. Members opposite who have their suspicions on this point might take our assurance that there is no attempt by a side wind to raise that question at all. The hon. Member for Nottingham, whose opinion upon this question of schools is always an authority with me to a large extent, in no way whatever attempted to under-value the moral instruction sought in the Motion, In the mind of the hon. Member for Kirk-dale, if his speech represents his mind, this would seem to be a covert attack upon the Christian religion, but surely it is almost impossible to get that idea from anything said either by the Mover or the Seconder of the Motion, and certainly not from the Motion itself. Were this Motion carried there would be exactly the same time given to religious instruction as now, unless the proposal was adopted that on one day of the week a part of the time now given to religious instruction should be devoted to moral instruction. It is no part of our Motion that such time now given for religious instruction should be devoted to moral instruction. If it can be arranged in any other way our purpose is obtained just in the same way. The hon. Member for Shropshire thought moral instruction could be given as well, and I think he said better, by being spread over all the secular subjects. I am to some extent in agreement with him there, and if that view is right, all that I should want would be that the President of the Board of Education should make it an obligation on the part of all schools that there should be at some time and somehow this moral instruction given. I have in my hand the moral instruction syllabuses of a number of educational authorities, and, when the hon. Member for Kirkdale was arguing in a way which seemed to leave the impression on some of our minds that we were trying to undermine the foundations of religion, I really am surprised that he should have taken that view.

I did not mean to convey the impression that the hon. Member was endeavouring to undermine the foundations of religion; but I thought that the tendency of the Resolution was to substitute secular for religious instruction.

Here I have a syllabus of an educational authority in which moral lessons are indicated with Biblical references. They include such matters as obedience to parents, pride, humility, benevolence, patriotism, purity of thought, and so on. These and many other questions are part and parcel of religion. Religion, in my view, cannot be absent from any of them. The hon. Member for Kirkdale said that morality changed, and that therefore there was no standard of authority about morality, but, as the hon. Seconder informed the House, religion also changes. Both are subject to development and to evolution. Therefore, when you come to definite things such as I have quoted, there surely can be no suspicion of an attack on religion. What we do want is an addition to and not something in substitution for what now takes place in respect to religion; that children should be taught in a practical, handy fashion, in which no question of religious controversy occurs, and as to which there can be no difference of opinion about the particular morality that is taught; and that this shall be enforced in a systematic fashion in all the schools under the Board of Education. And therefore, there was no need to tell us now that all good comes from God. The mere fact of saying that indicates that the hon. Member has altogether misconceived the object of this Resolution. We can agree, as I do entirely with him, but I also believe that God leaves himself never without a witness, and that outside the question of religion altogether there is a morality. The Apostle Paul teaches that very plainly. Therefore, I do want to assure hon. Members who are inclined to oppose this Motion that there is no sinister motive behind it, and no desire to substitute moral for religious instruction. What we do want the President of the Board of Education to do is not merely to express a pious opinion in the Code, excellent as it is, but to make it an obligation that in some form or another, and at some time or another, attention shall be systematically given to moral instruction.

Although I agree with a great deal of what was said by the hon. Member for Nottingham, I am not going to be led into a discussion of the tenets of religious morality. I am not going to discuss at all the question of teaching of dogmatic religion. I quite accept what the hon. Member for Burnley has said, that there is no intention on the part of the Mover of this Motion to foist upon us a morality divorced from religion, but he must remember that we have considerable reason to suspect this sort of thing. The teaching of morality, apart from religion, has had a considerable influence in one particular direction. I have been inundated with literature upon this subject which is not so clear, but perhaps more ambitious, than the speeches to which we have just listened. I think this literature would form very useful "padding" for such occasions as the distribution of prizes at a school, and I would advise hon. Members not to consign it to the wastepaper basket, but keep it carefully for future use. Let us consider what it is that we are asked to do. This moral instruction claims to be an interesting presentation of the facts of moral life. Unfortunately the facts of life present themselves in their own way, and they cannot be presented by a curriculum. They put themselves forward in their own way, and they are of a thousand different sorts, and how on earth are we to lay down any syllabus for their presentation? There are dozens of ways of affecting the character. Are we to be told that we ought to lead a child on by a particular method and form his opinions by a particular set of instructions? What is suggested practically means that you are not to use the best works of imagination, which are fiction, because these works do not lead up to morality. Surely the hon. Member must mean works of genius from which a child can form its own opinions without laying down any instructions as to how you are, to draw this or that moral.

Following the Bible, we are asked to take moral instruction from Homer. There are very few moral stories in Homer; there may be some good lessons learnt from him. Dickens, in his life, tells us how much edification and education he found when he was thrown into the library and read through the novels of Smollett and Fielding—absolutely ignorant that there was any harm in them. He got no harm from them. Really, leave boys to pasture upon the literature they get hold of; do not try to make it all moral to them. So far as I can recall my earliest days, my reading was of a mixed sort. I remember "The Pilgrim's Progress," which I read along with "The Arabian Nights." I have read "The Arabian Nights" since, and their immorality make my hair stand on end. I want to recall the House to the moral view. I remember about 30 years ago, in 1876, that the then President of the Education Department was friendly disposed towards ethical teaching, and introduced some sentences into, the Code. I, amongst others, was rather sceptical of the effect. I did not think the teachers required to be taught such absolute truisms. I am afraid that for 20 years these same edifying remarks appeared in the Code under my signature. But I would recall the type of school that existed before these very edifying remarks ever came into the Code. The type of school that I have in mind was the old parish school for children in Scotland. I wonder how the parochial schoolmaster would have looked in the old days upon the Code of ethics thus laid down.

If they wanted facts he gave them, and if they wanted advice he gave them it, either by a hint or a sneer or a joke, and occasionally by a thrashing. I do not see how this in Scotland did any particular harm. Surely what we have to do is to trust the teacher, and not always to keep him in leading strings. If you do not trust to the teacher, then your schools are worse than useless. Do not try to guide him always. Give him freedom now and then, to act from his own sense of humour, to follow his own character. Sometimes he may not be possessed of humour, and may be a grim person. If that be so then his pupils will learn that there is such a thing as grimness in the world. If he be humorous he will make their school days brighter. You will not add anything either to the intellect or the character of the boys who are being taught by forcing upon them new subjects, by manufacturing codes, and by laying down new laws for the teacher. You must trust to the teacher, and not keep telling him that he is to do this and that, that they are to take a particular set of books, and introduce a whole string of phrases with very learned names from them, and think by giving instruction of that sort you will improve the spirit, and increase the energy, or stir up the real activity and usefulness of the schools. For these reasons I object to Motions of this sort. It has been said that this is a Motion to divorce morality from religion. I do not oppose the motion on that ground, though there is something to be said upon it. I am opposed to any attempt to make boys into prigs, or to make teachers into machines for creating prigs. What you have got to do is not to try to lay down any elaborate syllabus for the nice operation of training character, or by setting an hour or two hours in the week apart for that purpose. Do leave the teachers alone, leave the boys alone, and also leave the schools without this constant discussion and interference by the Legislature.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, as he always does when he intervenes in a debate on education, has poured a refreshing stream of cold water on the enthusiam of some of my hon. Friends. I think a good deal of what he said is really good sound common-sense. I quite agree, and I am quite sure, that he would not endorse the views that have been put forward by some of those who sit on the Benches near him, that the object of my hon. Friend who moved this Motion was to substitute some syllabus of moral instruction for the religious instruction now given in our elementary schools. If I thought that my hon. Friend had that object in view, I, for one, certainly would not support his Motion. I believe it would find very little support in this House, because this House has expressed its opinion on the subject of secular education on previous occasions. But we are not justified in thinking he wishes to substitute moral instruction for religious instruction on two grounds. First of all because that is not shown by any assertion of his on the subject and those who are associated with him, and secondly because experience is not to the effect that in those schools where the moral instruction syllabus has been introduced religion has been barred. Out of the large number of schools which have adopted that syllabus there are only two where they do not give religious instruction, although they have moral instruction given on one or more mornings of the week. There is a well-known case of a school in which moral instruction is given each morning at 9.30 o'clock. There is the case of Huddersfield, which is largely misunderstood. They give moral instruction on one day, and they open the school every morning with a hymn, a prayer, and reading from the Scripture.In experience moral instruction, which my hon. Friend would like to see adopted in the schools, has not tended to the eviction of religion. The relation of this Motion to religion is not only direct, but I think it is definite. Certainly in our English school system you would never be able to divorce moral instruction from religious feeling. The teachers are inspired by it and teach through it. Many religious instruction lessons are exactly what my hon. Friend would desire to put in their moral instruction syllabus. The Bible is not likely to be shoved out of the schools by any syllabus introduced by Professor Michael Sadler or the Mover of the Motion, or that any other scheme would receive sanction or become part of the lives of the English people. I must say the hon. Gentleman interprets what is known as morality rather narrowly, certainly for the purposes of this discussion. It is very easy to draw examples from modern countries of what might be done here in a moral instruction syllabus. My hon. Friend who moved this Motion pointed to Japan as an example of what could be done in the direction of specialised moral instruction, but I think he overlooked one important fact, namely, the ethics of moral instruction are really the religion of Japan, that civic ideals are really the religion of Japan. [An Hon. MEMBER: " I think not."] An hon. Member below the Gangway says that is not so, but I would like him to assert in this House and elsewhere that the civic duty of the Japanese is not very largely the result or the motive of their religious feeling. I cannot believe he would tell us the impulse which carried them through the Japanese-Russian War was not largely this impulse translated into the civic ideal. The parallel between Japan and Great Britain is not accurate. The difference in method, religion, feeling, and thought is as far removed from ours as anything well could be, but we are prepared to learn even from the Japanese. I am not prepared to admit that the civic ideal of the Japanese is better than ours. A finer spirit than is in the local patriotism of Great Britain you cannot find. It is not gained by any instruction in our local schools, but the mere practices in the lives of our people.

The sympathy which I extend to this Motion I extend to it in the spirit, because naturally I cannot accept it in the letter. It has received many interpretations even by those who have supported it. The Board of Education has always shown its sympathy with the Moral Instruction League and those who represent it in this House. In the Code at the present time we have these words.:— But I go a long way towards saying that if you are to teach children morality, the less you have to do with scientific descriptions of it the better. They do not understand it. Psychology is a thing almost unknown to them. You will find a large number of children who may know all about the theoretical doctrines of self-denial, and yet go out into the play-ground and show evidence of serious selfishness in playing with their fellows or in sharing their sweets. Morality, if it is to be taught in our schools, must become part of the life of the school, and not necessarily a very finely-cut portion of the curriculum. It is very easy to talk about morality in the school. As my hon. Friend has said, not only is it the fashion to-day to do so on speech-days, at prize-givings, and at the opening of schools, but it has become part of the educational literature of our time. We may very easily do harm by pursuing morality for its own sake. I am not at all sure that morality and happiness do not come very much in the same category; you must take them by the way. There may be an inspiring force, but to take it as a separate science out of the art of life is to make it unreal. I cannot believe for a moment that my hon. Friend the Mover of the Motion ever imagined that you could have anything in the nature of a water tight compartment for moral instruction—moral instruction which did not permeate the whole of the life and teaching of the school. The old story which was taught to the children in the schools had more effect on their character than any kind of scientific classification. There is no doubt that the old story has been more effective in our schools than moral instruction ever will. For my own part I would rather see instruction confined to our training colleges, where your students have reached not only the years of discretion and intelligence which enable them to take full advantage of it, but where they can systematise their thoughts on these matters, and in due course exercise that influence on the children in our schools. It is very easy to make syllabuses. When I read some of the literature sent round I find put into a model syllabus an amount of teaching which it is really impossible to cram into the school years of a child. But there are some exceptions. One very great exception I will give is the case of the teaching of the civic virtues—the virtues of patriotism, views of peace and war, justice, co-operation, and so on. Nothing could be better than the careful presentation provided in these subjects which is suggested in the syllabus by the Moral Instruction League. The civic virtues have indeed been taught in a cursory manner in many of our schools up to the present. But there is one debt which we owe among others to the late Mr. Arnold-Forster, and that is the writing of a book called "The Citizen Reader," which certainly in its earlier editions exercised a great influence on the children of our people all over the country. If it is necessary to have a more scientific treatment of this great subject it cannot well be undertaken by those elementary schools without overtaxing the teachers of whom the hon. Member for Nottingham has spoken. My hon. Friend described the features of the teacher's school life. He stated that the teacher had not only to put in a heavy day's work, but that he had to exercise his intelligence and power of will to a greater extent than any other professional man. There is no sight that fills us more with awe than the sight of a teacher engaged in the work of his school. He has perhaps 60 children under his charge; he is maintaining the most perfect discipline, and he is training the intelligence of the children. If at the same time you could, in addition, get the teacher to instil the civic virtues into his moral education, that would be very delightful. But I think we can be indulgent to many of the objects which my hon. Friend has in view. Of course, we shall offer no opposition to the Motion on the Paper; but there are three things in particular which we must avoid. One is the overloading of the syllabuses, which are already very long. Remember, that the compulsory subjects are the English language, handwriting, arithmetic, drawing, observation lessons, nature study, geography, history, music, hygiene and physical training, and domestic subjects. There is not one of these that we can dispense with, and I hope we shall be cautious before we overload that syllabus. In the second place we must avoid a revulsion of feeling among the pupils themselves. Everyone who has any recollection of his youth must remember that you had only to have a moral well defined to be induced at once to break it. There is nothing more natural among children of both sexes than to avoid that which they are taught in the form of a maxim. One never feels so lazy as when one is implored to be industrious. It is the same all the world over, and we may very easily do some harm and cause a revulsion in one direction or create prigs in another if you do not proceed with moral instruction with the greatest care. I think we ought not to give the teacher too much to do in the way of more scientific training. Our elementary school teachers at the present time have to undergo a severe course of two years' training. If in addition to the subjects which they have already to take we are to add the difficult subject of psychology, We are going to make the training more and more impossible. I wish we could make it simpler, and I wish we could retain them in the colleges for a longer time than two years. We are creating places as rapidly as we can, and we are doing so out of public funds. If our teachers be not good, if their influence be not good in the schools, you may make the syllabus. whatever you like, but you are not likely to turn out good pupils.

The debate on the Motion and the Amendment has furnuished us with the most interesting statements which it has been my privilege to hear during the course of this Parliament. Every speech which has been made has been on behalf of what each speaker considers to be the real good of the children. I should not have risen at this late hour to add even a word to the debate had it not been for the reference of the President of the Board of Education to one of those two local educational authorities which have practical experience in this country of moral teaching in their schools. In the schools of one of those local authorities the President told us that moral instruction was given every morning. I have had experience of the other local authority called the School Board, and in the schools over which it had control moral instruction was given definitely upon one day in the week.

It was my privilege—a rather trying sort of privilege—to be a member of a school board for three years Accordingly I was brought into pretty close contact with this particular kind of teaching. I must say that even at that time, although this moral instruction was supposed to be given one day, it gradually dwindled and dwindled until it was scarcely given at all. I daresay that at the present time it has been wholly discontinued. At that time it was very spasmodically given, and no importance was attached to it on the part of the parents or the teachers or the scholars.

The moral instruction was imparted from a manual which had been extensively used in the Colony of Victoria. It was pretty well known as Dr. Hackwood's manual. On the subject of "Honesty " it was made quite clear that " honesty is the best of policy." Yet somebody had said that "while the statement is perfectly true anybody shaping his conduct according to that principle is a rogue." This is from a standard work of moral instruction, and I mention this because this so-called moral instruction became a dead letter. There were something about 9,000 children in that School Board district, and no religious instruction was given, but there was a service such as the President referred to, viz., the singing of a hymn—a very carefully selected hymn— there was no doctrinal tendency. Then there was a short prayer—I think the Lord's Prayer—and there was the reading of a short passage of Scripture, but no child was permitted to ask a question on the subject of the Scripture lesson, and the teachers were absolutely forbidden to give any reply if any question was asked. There was no religious instruction, and never was since 1870, but substituted for it was the so-called moral teaching for half an hour a week. I am afraid if the Mover and Seconder of this resolution were to succeed in inducing—which I am very thankful they are not likely to—the President of the Board of Education to accept as part of the curriculum of the schools this moral instruction the result would be of very little value in the practical lives of the children. I know the President is not likely to accept this Motion or to put very much about it in the Code, because he knows perfectly well our teachers are already taxed to the fullest extent of their powers and strength. I am certain when the hon. Member for Nottingham spoke of the work of the teachers in connection with the school curriculum he carried the whole House with him in strong sympathy on behalf of our teachers. We are thankful to think that while these sort of moral lessons, as suggested by the Motion, are not likely to be given, the moral instruction given under almost every educational authority in the country, I am glad to say will continue to be given, and I should like also to add my entire sympathy with the Mover of the Amendment when he seemed to rejoice in the fact that behind the spiritual instruction given in the schools there lies a power, which does not lie behind these moral maxims, to enable the child to understand or carry out the views which these maxims contained. There is lying behind the religious instruction the power which alone can enable us to carry on the teaching which may help so much to elevate our life and to develop our power. At any rate, therein lies the great power to produce the desideratum so highly spoken of by the hon. Member for St. Pancras, therein lies the power to form character, which we all recognise in these days, although formerly it was not recognised to be the end and object of all education. For these reasons I venture to express one's inability to support the Motion of the hon. Member.

And it being Eleven of the clock the Debate stood adjourned.

Oaths Bill

Motion made, and question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a second time."

Objection taken.

Will you, Sir, allow me to appeal to Members of the House to pass this second reading— [Cries of "Agreed."]

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Supply

Navy Estimates

Postponed Proceeding on Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair," resumed:—

Question again proposed: — Debate arising.

And, it being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further proceeding, the debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed to-morrow (17th March).

House adjourned at two minutes after Elevens of the clock.