House of Commons
Tuesday, March 23, 1909
Private Business
North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill.
Read a third time, and passed.
Thames Tunnel (North and South Woolwich) Bill (considered).
Torrens' Divorce Bill;
North and South Shields Electric Railway Bill;
Land Drainage Provisional Order Bill;
Read a second time, and committed.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Admiral von Tirpitz's Speech
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will obtain for the Members of this House a full translated report of the speech recently delivered by Admiral von Tirpitz in the Reichstag during the discussion on the German Navy Estimates?
I understand from His Majesty's Ambassador at Berlin that full reports of the speeches delivered in the Budget Committee are not obtainable.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the definite statement of the well-informed correspondent of the "Daily Graphic" that communications have been made three times to this Government on the question of acceleration?
The hon. Member must give notice.
Affairs in Persia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he could make any statement with regard to affairs in Persia?
The Nationalists have assumed control of the Government and Customs at Bunder Abbas. There appears to be little material change at other places.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he heard any definite statement as to the Shah accepting the Constitution, and whether the latest phase is satisfactory?
I wish I could say the latest phase is satisfactory.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received information of the arrival, at Resht, of a detachment of Russian Cossack troops, accompanied by two quick-firing guns?
I have not heard anything about the guns, but I have heard of the reinforcements, to which I referred the other day.
I have heard about the guns.
Egyptian Revenues (Army of Occupation)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the restrictions placed upon education and other essential social services in Egypt by the avowed lack of available funds, he will take into consideration, and urge upon the British Consul-General in Egypt, the propriety of reducing the charge placed upon the Egyptian revenues to maintain the British Army of Occupation?
The contribution paid by the Egyptian Government merely represents the amount by which the cost of the British force in Egypt exceeds the cost of the same force at home, and I cannot propose its reduction, however anxious that the Egyptian Government should have as many funds as possible for education and social reforms.
Is it not quite clear that the increased charges for the Army were due solely to the needs of the Soudan?
I think the increase was in view, and a review of the whole situation.
Is it not mainly through the Soudan situation that the maintenance of the increased expenditure is necessary?
No; but from the point of view of the military situation as a whole.
May I ask whether without the British Army of occupation there is likely to be any reforms at all?
Order, order. The hon. Member can form his own opinion.
Indo-European Company (Tabriz)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now received any official information on the subject of the outrage committed upon Mr. Brown, of the Indo-European Company, at Tabriz; and what steps do His Majesty's Government propose taking in the matter?
His Majesty's Consul-General at Tabriz reports that Mr. Brown was not the victim of an outrage, though his escort extracted from him a gratuity of about £3 more than he would have given them in ordinary circumstances. An insulting expression of no particular Oriental significance was made use of by one member of Mr. Brown's escort, but otherwise he was politely treated. Mr. Brown addressed no complaint to His Majesty's Minister at the time. His Majesty's Minister states that he will bring the fact to the notice of the Persian Government verbally, but does not consider that more than this is required.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us a translation of the Oriental expression?
Who furnished the escort?
I imagine it was the Persian Government. I am not sure, but even if it was I do not think any more action is required.
Limitation of Armaments (Germany and Great Britain)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the statements of Admiral von Tirpitz to the effect that the German Government has not received any suggestion from the British Government for a limitation of armaments; whether he can inform the House as to the dates and character of any communications that have been made; and whether His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of again approaching the German Government in reference to the matter?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Prime Minister yesterday to questions asked by the hon. Members for Mid-Armagh, Newbury, York, and Salford.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to the latest German criticism on the naval question to the effect that the British Government should have burnt the original or mother "Dreadnought" and its plans, and should have imprisoned the promoters and designer of the ship in the Tower?
No, Sir, I have not seen that.
Europeans in Persia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether his attention had been called to the manifesto issued by the Central Committee in Europe of the Persian Constitutionalist party, to the effect that this party has always endeavoured to safeguard the lives and property of Europeans in Persia, and would always continue to do so; whether order and security prevail wherever the influence of the Constitutionalist party extends; and can he state whether apprehensions have been expressed to His Majesty's Government, either by the British Consul at Resht or by British citizens resident in that town, for their safety or that of their property?
The manifesto in question has been sent to me. I am hardly in a position to state with certainty that order and security prevail in all places to which the influence of the Constitutionalist party extends, nor exactly how the parties in possession of different centres are composed; but, as far as I am aware, no complaint has yet been made by British subjects as to their treatment in such places as the question contemplates. As regards Resht, disturbances and possible danger to foreigners are anticipated in view of an impending collision between the Shah's troops and forces of the Nationalists. No appeal for protection has reached us from the British community there, who are doubtless aware that, as I informed the hon. Member for Brentford on the 18th, the Russian Consular Guard is being reinforced and has instructions to protect all foreigners. Similar instructions are being sent to His Majesty's ships to protect all foreigners at Bushire and Bandar Abbas if necessary.
Were any representations made by any of the British, or other European Consuls, before this invasion by Russian troops took place?
No; I have nothing to add to my answer.
His Majesty's Visit to Russia (the King's Official Business)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether there are any records of the discussions on matters of State between His Majesty the King, accompanied by Sir Charles Hardinge, of the Foreign Office, Sir John Fisher, of the Admiralty, and Sir John French, of the War Office, and the Emperor of Russia and his Ministers on the occasion of the King's visit to Reval in June last; whether, among the subjects of discussion, the comparative strength and efficiency of the German and British navies was included; and whether he, as the Minister responsible to this House for the foreign policy of this country, has any and, if so, what justification to offer for advice tendered to the Sovereign to go abroad and interview foreign Sovereigns and foreign Ministers unaccompanied by a Minister responsible to Parliament?
Any conversations which have an official character are recorded; the King transacts official business in the constitutional way through his Ministers. If the hon. Member supposes that I have advised His Majesty to go abroad and transact official business with foreign Sovereigns or Ministers direct and not through a Minister of the Crown, the answer to the last part of his question is that I am not prepared to justify any such advice, because I have not given it, and the thing has not occurred. I am responsible for seeing that foreign affairs are transacted through the Foreign Minister, and that responsibility has been preserved unimpaired. But, in view of the enormous amount of the business, I must claim the right to exercise discretion as to how much of it is transacted through ambassadors or officials of the Foreign Office, who act under instructions from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Unless I am allowed that discretion, I cannot, nor could any other human being, discharge the responsibility. There was no discussion at Reval of the comparative strength, past, present, or future, of British and German Navies.
Indian Subjects (Opening of Letters)
asked whether, by any order of the Secretary of State or of the Government of India, letters passing between British subjects in India and this country are opened by the Post Office authorities?
As was stated in reply to a question on 11th February last year, the Government of India has certain powers under the provisions of the Indian Post Office Act of 1898 of opening letters in India.
Have they exercised those powers?
Not so far as I am aware recently.
Condition of India (Papers)
asked whether it is the intention of the Secretary of State to lay any Papers before Parliament relating to the condition of affairs in India which led to the passing of the Press Act, the Public Meetings Act, the Explosives Act, and the Criminal Law Amendment Act, and to the revival of the deportation regulation?
The Secretary of State is not prepared to lay on the table papers such as are asked for by the hon. Member. The proceedings of the Viceroy's Legislative Council at the meetings at which the Acts referred to were passed, copies of which are in the library, contain full accounts of the reasons for passing them. As regards the deportations, in the discussion of the Amendment to the Address moved by the hon. Member, I gave the House all the information in my power as to the circumstances that had necessitated this course of action.
May I ask, arising out of that reply, whether the Under-Secretary can quote a precedent for action of this kind in reference to giving information?
The hon. Member must give notice of that question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since the discussion there have been several deportations?
No, Sir; my hon. Friend is wrong there. No deportations have taken place since.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State has any information as to the state of health of any of the nine British subjects who were deported from their homes in India in December last, and who are still in confinement?
The Secretary of State has not received any report from the Government of India on the subject. My hon. friend is no doubt aware that the officer in whose custody a State prisoner is placed is bound under the regulation to submit to the Government of India periodical reports as to the prisoner's health and comfort.
May I inquire whether the right hon. Gentleman has seen in the Indian Press a letter from one of these deported persons stating that he is extremely comfortable, and letters from other Indians complaining of the large salaries given to the families of these comfortable deportees?
I have not seen the latter, but I have seen the former statement.
Has his attention been called to the petition of the wife of Baba Aswini Kumar Dutt stating that for the last eight years her husband has been suffering from a wasting disease, and it is felt that, if removed from the nursing of his wife, his life may be shortened?
A copy of that petition was put in my hands yesterday by my hon. Friend, the Member for the Newbury Division of Berks; it has been presented to the Indian Government, and I have no doubt they will give it due attention.
Is there anything in the condition of Bengal which would make it undesirable that he should return to his home?
There is no doubt that the Government of India was satisfied at the time that Mr. Baba Aswini Kumar Dutt was arrested that the condition of things in the neighbourhood was such as to compel his arrest, along with others, who were also arrested. The Indian Government believed in that way they could deal with the state of things which has certainly improved.
Is not the condition of things at present one of perfect peace?
No, Sir; I should not be prepared to agree to that.
Is not this person, like other prisoners who are ill, entitled to enjoy the medical attendance and nursing which he would get elsewhere1?
Certainly.
May I ask if the Government have made any provisions that he shall have the same treatment for the disease from which he is suffering, and which has been so beneficial to him when he has been at home and nursed by his wife?
I have every reason to believe that the Government of India, who are responsible in this matter, and there is no great responsibility incurred in looking after these nine persons—I have every reason to believe that they will discharge that duty not only in accordance with the letter of the law, but generously.
rose to address a further question.
Order, order. The hon. Member must give himself the trouble of putting down his question.
National Telephone Company (Discharge of Staff)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can inform the House of any announcement which has been given by the National Telephone Company to their officials as to the discharge of a number of the constructional staff of the company if an agreement is not concluded between the Postmaster-General and the National Telephone Company before 31st March, 1909?
I have seen certain announcements made by the National Telephone Company with regard to the possible reduction of their construction staff, but no such announcement as that I have seen has contained the specific statement referred to in the question. The company propose, as I understand, to continue to meet all new applications for telephone service until the conclusion of their license. They will, therefore, in any case require a considerable construction staff during the remaining period of their license, so that, taking into account also the inevitable occurrence of vacancies and the opportunities for transferring construction hands to the increasing maintenance staff, I venture to hope that the company will not find it necessary to carry out the numerous discharges which are the subject of so many alarming rumours at the present time.
Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether they have made any further communication?
I do not think I can do that. I can only take their public statements, when they are made.
Has the right hon. Gentleman made arrangements to give employment to the constructional staff in case they are discharged by the Company?
I have informed the He use more than once that I am endeavouring to come to an arrangement with the Telephone Company. I am sorry to say that the negotiations have not yet arrived at any conclusion so far. I am still in negotiation with regard to the whole matter.
South-Eastern District Post Office
asked whether, in connection with the proposed extension of the South-Eastern District Office, Nos. 241, 243, 245, 247, and 251, Borough High Street were acquired by the Post Office in July, 1905, the tenants displaced, and the shop-fronts boarded up; whether, on 29th November, 1907, a petition was presented from 52 neighbouring occupiers pointing out the harm done to their businesses by these shops remaining empty, and praying that whatever alterations were to take place should be put in hand at once; whether the petition was acknowledged on 2nd December, 1907, and that the petitioners, having received no further reply, again communicated with the Postmaster-General in March, 1908, and were informed that the plans were under consideration, but the Department was unable to say when work would be commenced; whether, in August, 1908, the Postmaster-General declined to receive a deputation from the petitioners, and that these shops still remain closed and boarded up, no work having been commenced upon these premises; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
The facts generally are as stated by the hon. Member. I had hoped that the scheme for re-constructing the premises could have been put in hand shortly, but I am sorry that financial exigencies necessitate a deferment of the work. Temporary alterations have been carried out, with the result that Nos. 241, 243, 245, and 247, Borough High Street, are in actual use for Post Office purposes, and the boarding of the windows has to a great extent been removed.
Telegraph Communication (Recent Storms)
asked the Postmaster-General if he has had complaints from newspaper proprietors in Dundee and other northern towns as to the serious delay and consequent inconvenience and loss through the interruption of telegraph communication again caused by the recent storms, to which other towns are not now subjected; and if he can state when these lines will be laid underground to the North, and if he will cause this work to be expedited as much as possible?
I received a complaint from one firm of newspaper proprietors in Dundee in regard to the interruption caused by the recent snow storms. There has, however, been no general complaint. Most people realise, I think, that telegraphic delays cannot be altogether prevented on such exceptional occasions as that of the recent snow storms. The underground work, as far as the present state of finances permits, is being continued and applied to the completion of works which are of general advantage to all parts of the country, especially in connection with the submarine cables.
Can the right hon. Gentleman foreshadow any time when the submarine line of Dundee will be completed?
No; I am afraid I cannot at present.
Postmen (Medical Attendance)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that Patrick Wallace, rural postman between Bannow sub-post office and Brandane, was taken suddenly ill, and, as it was a question of life or death, had to call in the local doctor; whether the postal authorities have refused to pay the doctor's bill on the ground that the sick man should have called in the postmen's doctor, who lives 15 miles away; is he aware that the book of rules for postmen states that where there is no doctor employed at a post office the postman is at liberty to employ his own doctor, and the Department will be responsible; and whether he will order an inquiry into this case, with a view of relieving this man of the payment of the bill in question?
The bills of private doctors called in by Post Office servants are not paid except in case of injuries sustained on duty. There is no rule in the Postmen's Rule Book in the sense supposed by the hon. Member. In view of the distance of Mr. Wallace's residence from the nearest Post Office doctor, he has been removed from that officer's charge, and is now being paid the usual allowance of 8s. 6d. per annum in lieu of free medical attendance
Aliens Act (Regulations)
asked the Home Secretary whether an alien immigrant arriving from Russia at a port in this country, and being a fit subject for rejection by the immigration officer on the grounds set forth in Clause 1, Section 3, Sub-section (a) of the Aliens Act of 1905, is now allowed the benefit of the doubt granted to alien immigrants under the regulations issued to immigration officers on 9th March, 1906, in respect of statements made made by such immigrants that they are flying from political or religious persecution?
The Secretary of State has nothing to add to his answer of 11th March to the hon. Member on this subject. That reply covers the point raised in the present question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give a plain answer, yes or no?
Mail-Bag Canvas
asked the Home Secretary whether he will take steps to ascertain how many of the 680,000 yards of 52-inch mail-bag canvas ordered from British firms established in the United Kingdom are to be manufactured in the United Kingdom; and, if not manufactured in the United Kingdom, what steps he has taken to ensure that those engaged in the manufacture of this canvas abroad do not work for less wages and for longer hours than permitted by the fair wages clause when canvas is manufactured to the order of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom?
The Secretary of State is not in a position to require information as to what proportion of the canvas for which tenders have already been accepted will be manufactured abroad; but with regard to future contracts he has decided, after consultation with the Prison Commissioners, that contractors shall be invited to send in alternative tenders specifying separately the price for foreign and home - manufactured canvas. The latter part of the question was answered by my right hon. Friend on March 16th.
Am I correct in understanding that in future a British firm which tenders will have to show whether the canvas is made abroad or at home?
Yes, sir.
Lighted Matches
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the case of a lady who was severely burnt on the night of the 17th inst., and is now lying in a critical condition at the Forest Gate Cottage Hospital; is he aware that the accident was caused through a young man throwing down a lighted match; and whether he proposes to take steps to make such conduct a criminal offence?
The Secretary of State has made inquiry, but he finds that this distressing occurrence was a pure accident, and a matter which could not possibly be brought within the criminal law.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the lady still lies in a very critical condition, and that the wife of a friend of mine some time ago was burnt to death in the open air through similar outrageous carelessness?
I was not aware of the facts stated in the latter part of the question. In regard to the critical condition of this lady I was aware of the condition, but that does not alter the fact that it was due to a pure accident.
Is the throwing down of a lighted match a pure accident or a voluntary criminal act?
Allowance to Policeman's Widow (Leeds)
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that 8s. 8d. per week has been granted as provision for the widow and three children of the police-constable at Leeds, recently killed whilst in the execution of his duty, and that this sum is to be discontinued if the widow remarries, he will, in considering the case, exclude from his consideration any provision this constable has made for his wife and children by subscriptions to thrift societies?
The grant of pensions and allowances to the families of deceased police-constables is a matter for the local police authorities. It is regulated by the provisions of the Police Acts, and in this case the maximum pension "allowed by the Acts has been given. The amount of the allowance is not affected by any payments made to thrift societies. The Secretary of State has no authority to increase the pension or in any way to interfere in the matter.
When does the right hon. Gentleman propose to produce the legislation on the subject promised by the Government?
I do not think any legislation was promised by the Government. My right hon. Friend said in his view amending legislation was desirable, but he did not promise its immediate introduction.
Disestablishment (Welsh Church Commission)
asked whether the differences which have arisen between the members of the Welsh Church Commission will retard the introduction of the Bill for the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales?
The Prime Minister asks me to say that he is not yet in a position to make any statement about the probable date for the introduction of the Bill.
Infectious Diseases (School Attendance)
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the case of a sentence of a month's imprisonment with hard labour on two mothers, named Phoebe Brownhill and Sarah Kelly, inflicted by the stipendiary magistrate at Sedgeley upon a prosecution by the education committee, because they allowed their children to go to school when they were suffering from a slight ailment known as the itch; and whether, considering that Dr. Charles Bell Taylor says that the ailment is not infectious and that parents are compelled to send their children to school, he will remit the sentence?
The hon. Member has not been correctly informed with regard to the facts of the case. The prosecution was instituted by the police, and the defendants were charged with neglecting their children in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering. It was proved that the parents had been warned many times, but that they had nevertheless persisted in leaving their children in such a dirty and verminous state as to involve, according to the medical evidence, unnecessary suffering. The question whether the complaint the children suffered from was infectious or not was not relevant to the charge. The Secretary of State is sorry that he can see no reason for interference with the sentence.
Is the hon. Gentleman in possession of information as to whether the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children had anything to do with this case?
I am not aware. The prosecution was not undertaken by them, but by the police.
Does the hon. Gentleman approve of punishment for children for being not quite as clean as some medical man chooses to think they ought to be?
Does the hon. Gentleman think itch may properly be described as a. slight and not infectious ailment?
Vaccination (Exemption)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he has now completed his investigations into the allegation that the vaccination officer had shown or given certificates of exemption to the superintendent of the Peabody Buildings, Roscoe Road, St. Luke's, and that the superintendent had then given notice to the person making the declaration to quit the buildings; and if he will take steps to prevent the persecution of people who act in accordance with the Vaccination Act of 1907?
I have made enquiry on this subject, and I am informed that in any case in which it comes to the knowledge of one of the Superintendents of the Peabody Dwellings that a tenant refuses to have his child vaccinated notice to quit is served. I have no control over the trustees of the dwellings in this matter, but I find from the vaccination officer that in no instance has he shown the declaration exempting from vaccination to their agents or superintendents.
Small-pox (Bristol)
asked with reference to the present small-pox epidemic at Bristol, how many cases of the disease occurred in vaccinated persons before any unvaccinated person was notified as having the disease.
There were eleven such cases. It should, however, be stated that 24 cases of the 31 of which at present I have received particulars took place amongst persons over 20 years of age; that 22 out of these 24 persons had not been re-vaccinated since infancy, whilst the remaining two had already contracted the infection of small-pox before they were re-vaccinated. No case occurred amongst vaccinated children under the age of 10, but there were two amongst children who had not been vaccinated.
Has the right hon. Gentleman been advised that vaccination is no good unless the person is under 10 years of age?
No; but the hon. Member asked me to secure certain facts and information. I have given him the facts and information as I received them from reliable persons.
Poor Law Superannuation (Metropolitan Asylums Board)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if his attention has been called to the case of a man named Bidwell, a carpenter, who had been in the employ of the Metropolitan Asylums Board for 37 years, 11 months, 3 weeks, when he reached the age of 65 years (which is the age fixed for compulsory retirement for the service of the Board); whether he is aware that the Board rejected a recommendation of the Asylums Committee to add one year to the man's service so as to entitle him to the full benefit of 38 years' service for superannuation purposes, in view of the fact that his service was only seven days short of 38 completed years, and that he had paid superannuation contributions during the whole period covered by the Act of 1896; whether he is aware that it is customary for the Metropolitan Asylums Board and other poor law authorities, under similar circumstances, to add a number of years to the service of their higher grade officials; and whether, in view of these inequalities, he intends to take any steps to amend Clause 3 of The Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896, so as to provide that superannuation shall be payable, in all cases, upon the total length of instead of completed years of service?
My attention has been called to the case referred to. I understand that the facts with regard to it are as stated, and I am in communication with the managers on the subject. I will take note of the suggestion of my hon. Friend, but I do not at the present time propose to introduce a Bill for an alteration of the Act.
Dairies and Cowsheds (Cleanliness)
asked what the conditions and regulations are as to cleanliness and management of dairies and cowsheds which apply to the districts from which the imports of fresh milk and cream are derived?
The information in my possession is not sufficient to enable me to say definitely what are the conditions as to cleanliness and management in the dairies and cowsheds abroad, or as to the extent to which foreign regulations are enforced in these places. I caused inquiries, however, to be made last year regarding the methods adopted at the single creamery in France from which all the fresh milk imported into this country appears to be obtained, and from which also a considerable quantity of cream is imported. The result was generally satisfactory, as was also the result of the examination of some samples taken in London.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the importation of this milk in bringing forward the Milk Bill?
Yes, certainly. I have the subject in mind, and I am sorry that in these matters the jurisdiction of the Local Government Board is only applicable to the United Kingdom.
Costs in Criminal Cases
asked the Attorney-General whether he will, on behalf of the Government, favourably consider an amendment of Section 3 of the Costs in Criminal Cases Act, 1908, with a view to empowering the justices, in all cases where a charge made against a person for any indictable offence is dismissed by them, to order the prosecutor to pay the costs of such person incurred in or about his defence?
The point raised by the question was carefully considered by the Government so late as last Session. The possibility of hardship in some cases was then fully recognised, but it was decided to be the better course not to condemn a prosecutor in costs where he has moved the court in good faith and in the interests of public justice, except in the particular cases set forth in Section 6 of the Act to which the hon. Member refers. I am not prepared on behalf of the Government to recommend any change in the law in this respect.
House-purchase Companies (Lottery Acts)
asked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been called to the practices of certain house-purchase companies, by which drawings take place for the allotment of advances free of interest; and whether, seeing that the bondholder who receives an advance free of interest receives the equivalent of a cash prize, and in view of the Lottery Acts, he will say what action he proposes to take?
The question of drawings by house-purchase companies was the subject of inquiry and report by a Departmental Committee of the Board of Trade in 1905, and I am informed that the Board have the matter under their consideration.
Cost of Living (United States)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will institute an inquiry into the cost of living in towns of the United States of America on the lines of the inquiries made with regard to French and German conditions?
As I stated in reply to the hon. Member for Blackburn on Thursday last, the Board of Trade are at present making an investigation in the United States.
Preferential Railway Rates (France)
asked if the French Government have issued an order reducing the railway rates in France on goods to be shipped by French vessels without any similar reduction on goods to be shipped by British vessels; and, if so, what representations have been made to the French Government in reference to the injury to British trade?
The system of preferential rates to which the hon. Member refers was inaugurated by the French railway companies with the approval of the French Government in 1904. Last year certain recent developments of this system were brought to the notice of the Board of Trade, and as a consequence I understand that representations as to their effect upon British shipping were made by His Majesty's Government to the French Government. I regret that so far these representations have not been successful.
Seeing that it imposes a disability of some 20 to 40 francs per ton on British steamers, does the right hon. Gentleman not think it a fitting subject for retaliation?
French Customs Tariff
asked whether the French customs tariff has been increased on black plates by 8s. 4d. per ton on certain gauges and 16s. 8d. on others, whilst a new classification termed flat sheets for dynamos is increased by 25s., 34s. 4d., 41s. 8d., and 50s. per ton, according to thickness; and, in consequence of the last-named classification being so vague that trouble may ensue owing to the customs officials claiming the higher duties on the ordinary black plates, which are only subject to the lower tariff, whether he intends taking any action in the matter?
The figures given by the hon. Member represent approximately the changes proposed by the Customs. Commission of the French Chamber of Deputies in the minimum tariff rates of duty on black plates and flat sheets for dynamos, but these proposed changes have: not been brought into force, as the question appears to suggest. Representations upon these proposals have already been received by the Board of Trade, and are being dealt with in connection with other similar representations about the effect of the proposed new French tariff on British-trade.
Quarrymen's Wages (Norway)
asked the President of the Board of Trade what information he has received with reference to the rate of wages and hours of work in the quarrying industry in Norway?
Without a special inquiry no definite and detailed information is available on a basis comparable with the United Kingdom with reference to the rate of wages and hours of work in the quarrying industry in Norway, but I shall be happy to send the hon. Member such information as is in the possession of the-Beard of Trade.
Board of Irish Lights
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his Department has any representation on the Board of the Irish Lights Commissioners; and, if not, can he state by what constitutional authority reresentations are made by the Beard of Trade to the Commissioners, and what powers he possesses to ensure that such representations are carried out?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the negative. The Board of Trade have by virtue of the Merchant Shipping Acts, a control over expenditure by the General Lighthouse Authorities, but they have no power to initiate proposals for lighthouse works, and any representations made by the Board can therefore only take the form of suggestions.
Buoy at Strangford Bar
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state if his Department or the Irish Lights Commissioners have received any communications from ships' captains and the residents, pilots and fishermen of Portaferry and Strangford, county Down, in respect to the position of the new temporary buoy moored 6 miles from the mouth of Strangford Bar; and, if so, can he state whether such communications recommend that the buoy be moved to within 1½ miles of the Bar mouth; and what action he proposes to take?
Communications recommending the removal of the buoy to a position nearer the Bar mouth have been received at the Board of Trade from ship masters, pilots, and others. These communications have been referred to the Irish Lights Commissioners who, as I informed the hon. Member for East Down yesterday, state that they do not concur in the local opinion that the position of the buoy should be altered, seeing that it is intended as a mark to protect the passing trade, and not to guide vessels into Strangford Lough.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of whether any of the deep-sea pilots sent communications, or whether it is only those engaged in the coasting trade who have been consulted in the matter?
Communications have been received from pilots, and these communications have been forwarded by us to the Commissioners of Irish Lights, and after considering these, and all other information received by them, the Commissioners adhere to the opinion that the present position of the buoy is that best suited to afford safety to the shipping.
What I would like to know is whether any recent communications have come from the deep-sea pilots who have to pilot all the boats along that part of the coast or only from the local pilots in Strangford Lough?
I had not in my mind that distinction when asking the question, but I will make enquiries and communicate with the right hon. Gentleman privately.
London Tube Railways (Conciliation Scheme)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the conciliation scheme arranged in November, 1907, between representative railway companies and the railway workers has not yet been put into force on most of London's tube railways; whether it was not a term in the agreement that the companies' signatories should endeavour to influence non-signing companies to adhere to the agreement; whether any such action has been taken with regard to the London tube railways; and, if so, what has been the result; and if he will endeavour to use his influence to persuade the tube companies to adopt and speedily put into force the conciliation scheme arrived at in November, 1907.
As my hon. Friend is no doubt aware, a conciliation board has been established for the Great Northern and City Railway. With regard to the group of lines controlled by the Underground Electric Railways Company, I understand that communications are in progress as to the formation of conciliation boards, but I have not yet been informed of the result. The Central London Railway Company have so far declined to form a conciliation board for their line on the ground that the circumstances are quite different from those generally prevailing. I understand the position of the City and South London Railway Company to be similar. If, however, there is evidence of a desire on the part of the employés of these companies for the establishment of conciliation boards on these railways, I will again communicate with the companies.
Imports of Milk and Cream
asked what the imports of fresh milk and cream were in 1907 and 1908 respectively, both in weight and value?
One hundred and fifty-six hundredweight of fresh milk of a declared value of £68 were imported into the United Kingdom in 1907, and 953cwt. of a declared value of £437 in 1908. Four thousand two hundred and thirty-one hundredweight of cream, of a declared value of £16,920, were imported in 1907, and 6,862cwt., of a declared value of £26,556, in 1908.
Exports of British Potatoes
asked what is the total weight and value of potatoes exported in 1907 and 1908 from Great Britain; and to what countries are they exported?
It would take too long to read the particulars, but the information will be printed and circulated with the Votes.
Training Colleges for Teachers (England and Wales)
asked what is the number of recognised places in the training colleges of England and Wales, the average annual output of students available as teachers, the average length of a teacher's career as teacher, and the number of teachers required in elementary schools?
The recognised accommodation in training colleges for 1908–9, excluding the Norwood Blind College and a few temporary buildings, is 11,813. The number of students leaving training colleges, after passing the prescribed examination test, in 1908 was 4,343, and in addition there were 110 students in that year who were certificated before admission to a training college. I regret it is not possible to give any estimate of the average length of a teacher's career or of the number of teachers required in elementary schools.
House Purchase Companies Drawings
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the practices of certain house-purchase companies in holding drawings for the allotment of advances free of interest; and whether, in view of the fact that legislation has been passed preventing such practices with regard to building societies, he will introduce legislation to prevent the continuance of this practice in the case of house-purchase companies?
My attention has been called to the fact that certain house-purchase companies hold drawings for the allotment of advances free of interest, and I am at the present time considering legislation to deal with the matter.
Scottish Railway Companies and Traders
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the short time and consequent suffering now being undergone by miners, railway and other workers, in Scotland, as a result of the dispute between the railway companies and the traders; whether he has taken any steps to bring the dispute to an end; and, if so, what has been done in the matter?
I presume the hon. Member refers to the difficulties which have arisen between certain Scottish railway companies and traders in regard to charges for demurrage of wagons and siding rent. A meeting was recently held at the Board of Trade between the parties concerned with a view to an amicable settlement of the dispute, and it was then arranged that each of the trades concerned should form a small representative committee to negotiate with the railway companies. I understand that these negotiations are still proceeding, and I hope they will lead to a satisfactory result.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state anything as to the result of the negotiations?
Negotiations are still going on. I hope that they will lead to a satisfactory result, but I should not like to make any prediction.
Continental Railway Systems (Official Investigation)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the following points are included within the scope of the Instructions to the Commission which has been dispatched to study the management and working of the Continental railway systems; and, if not, whether the Board will take such steps as are necessary to secure their inclusion, namely, the investigation of the systems of dealing with passengers' luggage both as regards registration and charges for excess weight, the customs in force on the different railways respecting the loss in weight of truck-loads of coal while in transit between consigner and consignee, and as to whether weighing machines owned by railway companies are subject to periodical verification by an independent departmental official in the interests of such consigners and consignees and the public?
The instructions to the investigators despatched by the Railway Conference for the purpose referred to were issued by the Conference, and they included within their scope all matters of importance relating to the facilities afforded both to passengers and traders. They did not specifically cover the question of the verification of railway companies' weighing machines, a duty which, in this country, is undertaken by inspectors appointed by local authorities. I shall, however, be happy to obtain information on this point for my hon. Friend.
May I ask when it is expected that the Commissioners will report?
They have dealt with portion of the German and portion of the French railways. Further investigations are now going on. I should not think that the report would be ready for several months.
Navy (Scrapping old Ships)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has any official information that, as regards the policy of scrapping old ships, Japanese naval experts consider that this policy has been carried too far, and that they now consider that the older types of vessels, armed with modern guns, might be used with advantage in blockades, leaving the newer types to take the open sea; and whether he can lay any Papers he has on this subject upon the table?
No official information on this subject has been received.
Has the right hon. Gentleman ever asked for any information on the subject?
If you put down a question on the Paper I will be happy to answer it.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the wisdom of abandoning the policy of breaking up the older ships?
Perhaps you will put down a question.
Is it possible to use the modern weapons on ships of old construction?
It would not be possible on all ships. It might be possible on some.
Hops Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he is yet in a position to make a statement as to the re-introduction of the Hops Bill this Session?
I do not see any chance of passing the Bill in the immediate future, but the matter will not be lost sight of.
Absence of the Sovereign
asked whether there is any precedent before the present reign, and, if so, what precedent, for the absence of a Sovereign, unattended by a Minister of the Crown, during the Session of Parliament; and what arrangements, if any, have been made to mitigate the inconvenience thereby caused to the public business of the country?
I have nothing to add to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to my hon. Friend the Member for East St. Pancras on May 2nd, 1907. I am not aware that any inconvenience in the transaction of public business is likely to arise from the absence of a Minister in attendance on the Sovereign.
Was there no inconvenience to public business on the resignation of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman?
No.
Was there not a delay of three weeks to public business owing to the absence of the Sovereign?
Is not it a fact that during the reign of the late Sovereign when she went abroad she was always accompanied by a Minister of the Crown answerable to this House and its representative to the Sovereign?
No, Sir. It is not the case.
Foreign Office Vote
asked whether there will be an opportunity before the Easter recess for the discussion of the Foreign Office Vote?
No, Sir; I do not anticipate that it will be possible to take any Civil Service Votes before Easter.
British and Foreign Granite (Official Inquiry)
I desire to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will, in view of the public interest in the question, lay upon the Table the Report of the official inquiry held upon the respective merits of British and foreign granite?
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 18th March to the hon. Member for North-West Manchester.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last week he informed me across the Table that he was considering the propriety of giving an answer shortly?
That was a supplementary question. The information is not yet complete.
Shipbuilding Programme (Thames District)
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether, in carrying out the shipbuilding programme for the ensuing financial year, he proposes to lessen the burden of unemployment in East London by placing orders with shipbuilding firms on the River Thames.
The claims of the Thames district will not be overlooked.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the advisability of building battleships for the same reason as Germany, namely, to relieve unemployment in certain distressed districts?
I am unaware that that is the reason for the Germans building battleships.
Kew Gardeners
I wish to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he is aware that on 23rd May, 1907, he stated that they, the gardeners, do not go to Kew without some prospects of promotion and of higher salaries; that, in spite of such statement, sub-foremen with several years' service are being dismissed and a foreman engaged from outside; and, if so, whether it is to be understood that such promise of promotion does not now hold good, or whether the three sub-foremen now under notice, with their several years' service at Kew and five years' training before entering Kew, are not considered capable of filling the position of foreman?
It happened on the occurrence of the last vacancy in the position of foreman at Kew that none of the sub-foremen possessed sufficient experience of the work to justify their promotion, and a gardener who had had previous service at Kew and had risen to the rank of sub-foreman was engaged to fill it. But the general position with regard to promotion remains precisely what it was when I explained it to the House in May, 1907. I may add that the statement in the question of my hon. Friend as to what I said on 23rd May, 1907, is not correct.
Is it not a fact that the secretary to the men's union was fully qualified for this position, but that instead of being promoted his dismissal was allowed to take place?
I must have notice of that question.
Thorney Estate (Purchase Negotiations)
I wish to ask the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the Board is, or has been, negotiating with the Duke of Bedford for the purchase of the Thorney estate; if so, whether the negotiations are completed; and whether, if the negotiations are not completed, the House will have an opportunity of discussing the terms of purchase before the contract is signed?
Parliament has given the Commissioners of Woods statutory powers for the purchase of land; but the assent of the Treasury is necessary in all cases of magnitude. In the present instance preliminary negotiations are proceeding between the Commissioners (not the Board of Agriculture) and the Duke of Bedford; but they are not completed, and no Report has as yet reached the Treasury. I am fully alive to the interest which the negotiations have aroused in this House; and I shall very carefully scrutinise any proposals submitted by the Commissioners. The House will have the usual opportunity of calling in question any decision arrived at—for which I shall be prepared to take full responsibility—but I fear that it would not be practicable to provide an opportunity for the discussion suggested by the hon. Member.
Am I to understand that our money will be paid to the Duke of Bedford without any opportunity of saying how much it will be?
The hon. Member must not understand that.
What assurance have we that the payments to the Duke of Bedford will not be on the same extravagant scale as the payments to Sir Michael Hicks Beach?
I can assure hon. Members that our transaction will not take an extravagant form.
Will any opportunity for discussion arise before the bargain is concluded?
It will be impossible for a bargain of this sort to be discussed on the floor of the House before it is completed.
Godfrey Ermen Memorial School, Eccles
asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to a resolution which was passed by the borough of Eccles Education Committee on 17th February, 1909, directing the immediate transfer of 16 children, all of whom were under seven years of age on 1st July last, from the infants' department in the mixed department of the Godfrey Ermen Memorial School; and, if so, whether a local education authority has any power to compel the managers of a non-provided school to transfer children from the infants' department to the mixed department in the middle of the school year, when, in the opinion of the head master and the head mistress of the school, such children are not from an educational point of view eligible for such promotion?
The Board have received no information as to the circumstances referred to, and my right hon. Friend is causing inquiries to be made.
School Attendance, Halifax
asked the President of the Board of Education if his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. J. W. Broadbent, of Norland, near Halifax, who along with his sister, both being experienced State school teachers, is educating his own children, and to the repeated prosecutions and finings which have resulted therefrom; have these actions been taken with his knowledge, or have they received his sanction; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
My right hon. Friend's attention has been drawn to this case. He understands that proceedings have been instituted by the local education authority on more than one occasion for failure to comply with the school attendance bye-laws, and that convictions have been obtained. The sanction of the Board of Education is not required to prosecutions under the School Attendance Acts, and the Board have no power to interfere with the local authority's discretion or to over-rule the decision of the magistrates.
Board of Agriculture (Housing Accommodation)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he has been able to make any progress towards any scheme for the better housing accommodation of the Board of Agriculture?
Yes, Sir. A scheme is proposed for building on the site of Nos. 9, 10, and 11, Whitehall-place. Provision of £l,500 is included in the Estimate for Public Buildings, Great Britain, 1909–10, on account.
When will the building be commenced?
As soon as hon. Members have voted the £1,500.
Paris Embassy (Reconstruction and Repairs)
I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury how much has been expended during the past ten years on the reconstruction and repairs of the Embassy at Paris; and if the £5,050 included in this year's Estimates for the reconstruction of the kitchen block will complete the outlay proposed to be made?
The total expenditure on reconstruction and repairs at the Paris Embassy during the nine years ending 1907–8 was £26,012; the estimated expenditure for the current financial year is £9,042, making a total for the past ten years of £35,054. I am unable at present to say whether the sum of £5,050 provided in the Estimates for 1909–10 for the reconstruction of the kitchen block will complete the outlay necessary on this building, as during the past year distinct movements have taken place in the main building, due, according to one theory, to the construction of underground railways. A most careful watch over the structure is being maintained, and I am sending my principal architect and surveyor to Paris shortly with instructions to make a complete investigation, and to report what steps, if any, are necessary for protecting the building. Until I shall have received that report it is impossible to form any idea as to future expenditure.
Inland Revenue Officers (Instructions)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has issued instructions to the Inland Revenue officers that, pending the hearing of the appeal in the case of the Attorney-General v. Herbert Till, they shall not, in cases of non-payment of income tax due to proved inadvertence, demand seven years' back payment or an equivalent penalty?
No, Sir, I have issued no such instructions. The Board of Inland Revenue, in dealing with cases of the character referred to by the hon. Member, will continue to be guided by the requirements of each case.
Old Age Pensions (Delayed Claims)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in a case where the claim for a pension by a claimant duly entitled to receive it was delayed, through no fault of the claimant, in transmission to a pensions committee, the Treasury will permit the pension to date from the time from which it would have been payable had there been no such delay?
Under Section 5, Sub-section (2), of the Old Age Pensions Act, a pension is payable on the first Friday after the claim has been allowed by the Pension Committee, and I have no power to vary this provision.
Land Purchase Agreements (Land Act, 1903)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state whether purchase agreements under the Irish Land Act of 1903 were filed with the Estates Commissioners in the estate of William Gresson, Winslow, county Fermanagh; when were the said agreements filed; how many were filed; have the Estates Commissioners refused to sanction the sale of this estate; and, if so, on what grounds?
The Estates Commissioners inform me that purchase agreements in respect of the holdings of four tenants on the estate referred to were lodged in October, 1908. The vendor declined to include in the sale other lands in the neighbourhood of which he was owner, and the Commissioners refused to declare the lands comprised in the four holdings an "estate" for the purposes of the Act.
Territorial Force (Water Carts Regulations)
asked the Secretary of State for War if, under a recent regulation, all units of the Territorial Force who have water carts on their establishments are informed that these must be hired locally; whether he is aware of the almost invariable difficulty of hiring water carts locally, and that when hired they would rarely be fit for the transport of drinking water; and whether he is prepared to modify the regulation?
The circular memorandum to which the question appears to refer required only two carts per Army Service Corps column. It has since been decided that the Army Service Corps shall conform to the practice adopted for the rest of the force, and where water is not laid on at camps regulation water carts will be issued during training. The Royal Army Medical Corps units hold filter water carts as part of their normal equipment.
Army Horses (Purchases at Home and Abroad)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state what number of horses for all Army purposes have been bought in the United Kingdom during the years 1906, 1907, and 1908, and what is the average price paid per horse during each of those years; whether any horses for the Army have been bought abroad and imported into the United Kingdom during the said years; and, if so, what is the number of the same and the average prices paid for them landed in this country?
The figures for the number of horses purchased in the United Kingdom and the average price per horse are as follows:—
Has the number of horses purchased gone down?
No; the number of horses purchased is very nearly the same as in 1906. In 1907 it was larger.
Why was it larger in 1907?
Because in that year 900 horses were purchased for South Africa.
But why has the price gone up?
The price is very nearly the same.
New Zealand Offer of Battleships
May I ask the Prime Minister a question, of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether he will state to the House the substance of the communication from the Dominion of New Zealand as to defraying the cost of one or more battleships; and whether he is in a position to inform the House what response the Government have decided to make to this timely and generous offer; and also whether any communications have passed between His Majesty's Government and the Australian Commonwealth on the same subject, and whether the Prime Minister will lay the papers?
There are several questions on this subject of which notice has been given for tomorrow. If the right hon. Gentleman would allow me, I would rather defer making any statement till then.
Geeat Northern, Geeat Central, and Great Easteen Railway Companies
Proposed Working Union
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to make any statement as to the result of any negotiations which have taken place between the Board of Trade and the Great Northern, Great Central and Great Eastern Railway Companies with respect to the proposed working union of those companies?
I have been in regular communication with the chairmen and managers of the companies to which my right hon. Friend refers for the last three months upon the safeguards which, in the judgment of the Board of Trade, are required to be inserted in the Bill for the protection of traders, the travelling public and the employés of the companies. As a result of these negotiations, the companies have now agreed with me that clauses providing that, for the purpose of calculating maximum rates, the lines of the three companies are to be counted as one, that passenger fares (including season tickets, etc.) are not to be increased by reason of the passing of the Bill, that the alteration in conditions brought about by the Bill is not to be held a justification for an increase in the rates for goods, that the facilities as a whole afforded in any district are not to be unreasonably diminished, and that persons in the permanent employment of the companies are not to be discharged in consequence of the working union, without adequate compensation.
The clauses are somewhat long and technical, and I propose to give hon. Members the earliest opportunity of studying them by circulating them with the Votes. In view of these clauses, and, after full consideration of the subject, I propose on behalf of the Government to support the second reading of the Bill; but the House will be left free, so far as Government Whips are concerned, to take its own decision.
Should the House accept the advice of the Government, and read the Bill a second time, I shall move that the Bill be referred to a strong hybrid Committee; and, in order to ensure that the Committee shall have power to make a full inquiry into this most important question, and that the Board of Trade and other Government Departments shall be enabled to watch the progress of the Bill in all its stages in the public interest, I shall move the following Instruction:—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee to consider the proposals of the Bill in relation to the public interest, as well as to the various interests directly affected; to hear the Board of Trade and any other Government Department by counsel and witnesses, and to make a special Report to the House, stating whether any and what advantages and disadvantages would result to the interests of the public or of the passengers and traders using the railways of the three companies promoting the Bill, or of the persons employed by those companies, if the powers sought by the Bill were granted; whether any and what safeguards are necessary for the protection of these special and general interests; and (in the event of the Committee finding the preamble of the Bill proved) what provisions, if any, have been inserted for this purpose."
Who will decide the meaning or limits of the words "adequate" and "reasonable"? They are of some importance.
I think the hon. Gentleman had better wait till he sees the text of the clauses. There is ample provision for a decision on the points.
How are the words "permanently employed" to be construed? Is it to be length of time, or what are the conditions?
It would be a disadvantage to attempt an elaborate defence now of all points. But that particular point, "permanently employed," means "regularly employed," in contradistinction to "casual labour."
Have any steps been taken to ascertain whether already certain employés have not been discharged from the service of these companies in consequence of the amalgamation?
I do not see how that can be; the amalgamation has not been sanctioned.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to inquire whether such has been done? [Cries of "Order."]
Will the right hon. Gentleman state when the second reading will be taken?
I understand that it will be convenient to take it to-morrow (Wednesday) week.
Will the matter be left to the unfettered discretion of the House?
I do not see how my words can be open to any other interpretation.
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will take care to have provision made for third-class sleeping cars?
Will the employés have the right to appear before the hybrid Committee by counsel or otherwise?
I cannot quite say. That is a legal matter. The Board of Trade will have power to attend, and to call any witnesses they choose on any point of view that they think desirable to bring before the Committee. That is the great safeguard that the general interest will not be overlooked.
May I be allowed to have an answer to my question?
That does not arise out of the question.
Naval Policy
Vote or Censure
Perhaps the Prime Minister will now inform us with regard to the arrangements finally made in respect to the Vote of Censure?
I understand it is the general convenience that it should be taken on Monday next.
Presentation of Bill
The following Bill was presented and read a first time:—
Mr. ARNOLD HERBERT—Bastardy.—Bill to amend the Bastardy Acts, and for other purposes relating thereto. (To be read a second time 26th March.)
Notices of Motion
This day fortnight to call attention to the question of land reform and to move a Resolution.
This day fortnight to call attention to the question of the administration of the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, and to move a Resolution.
This day fortnight to call attention to the question of the immunity of merchant vessels in time of war, and to move a Resolution.
Sweated Industries (Importation) Bill
I rise for the purpose of asking leave to introduce a Bill to improve the conditions of employment by prohibiting the importation of certain goods unless they are manufactured under certain conditions of labour.
The object, briefly, of this Bill is to provide that when in this country a minimum rate of wages in any industry has been fixed by law or in some cases by custom, the industry shall be protected from the competition of goods produced abroad by labour working under a lower rate of pay. The Bill does not affect any goods until notice is issued concerning them by the Home Secretary. It is provided that notice shall be issued when a legal wage has been fixed, but to meet the case that the legal rate may not be the same in all parts of the country, it is left to the Home Secretary to declare what is the minimum rate for the kingdom for the purpose of importation.
Provision is also made that where there is no legal rate application may be made to the Home Secretary to find and notify publicly that there is a minimum customary rate.
On the issue of the Home Secretary's notice of a legal minimum rate or customary minimum rate of wages the specified goods will be prohibited from entry by the officers of Customs, unless the importer is able to make a declaration that the rate of wages paid in their manufacture is not less than the English rate.
This Bill provides appropriate penalties for false declarations knowingly or negligently made.
For some years past—certainly since 1891—successive Governments have recognised their responsibility for the conditions of labour in the work they put out to contract. The present Government has given us reason to believe that it is not indifferent to the conditions of labour in other work as well. Indeed, Members of the Government have recently assured the House that they look forward to the passing this Session of the Wages Board Bill, by which it is hoped to secure fair wages for all classes of workers in this country. That would be a most desirable thing to do. But, while securing our workmen fair wages, we must guard against the risk of depriving them of work by permitting foreigners, working at lower wages, to send their more cheaply-produced goods here in competition with them. It is useless to provide that British workmen shall not receive less than a stated wage if the product of labour paid at a lower wage is allowed to come into this country. That would be to protect British workmen paid at trade union rates from the unfair competition of labour which, although sweated, is still British, whilst leaving them exposed to the unfairer competition of labour which is both sweated and foreign.
Upon this point some instructive evidence was given last year before the Select Committee on Home Work, and, while I do not propose to go into that in the limited time at my disposal, I would venture to recommend it—and particularly the evidence of Mr. Aves and Mr. Walker—to the attention of the House. It will, I think, impress upon hon. Members Mr. Walker's warning: "You cannot raise wages when the whole world can come in and compete with you." To us, on these benches, it seems that the practical way to protect our labour is by import duties. But these we cannot hope to have at once. In this Bill I have had in view chiefly the question of proposing some alternative to import duties, which should be simple in operation and effective. I do not claim for it more than this—that it may furnish the basis of a measure which is indispensable if the attempt to establish a general minimum wage is not, in the long run, to do more harm than good to the people it is intended to benefit. Sooner or later this question will have to be faced. It is not merely a matter of protecting our workers against the competition of Belgium or Switzerland, where the conditions of labour are only a little lower than our own. There is the further problem: How are our workers to meet in the home and foreign markets the competition of goods produced in China and Japan, where the standard of life and the rates of wages are out of all comparison with those which European civilisation has laboriously evolved?
The Government refuses the general protection of an import duty. So far as sweated labour is concerned, then, there is only the alternative of exclusion. The plan is that the Home Secretary proclaims certain goods as subject to a wage rate. Thereupon the Custom House stop these goods—unless the importer makes a declaration. The importer can have his goods if he chooses to make his declaration and take his risk. In a prosecution it would be a defence that he had inquired into the matter and had reason to believe that the foreign rate was no lower than ours. The measure would not become operative until a minimum rate is fixed—until wages boards are established or until the trades' unions can induce the Home Secretary to act. The House will shortly be engaged in considering the Sweated Industries Bill, into the merits of which I may not now enter. It represents the views of a certain school, with which one may or may not be in sympathy, but this much is certain—good or bad, all such legislation must inevitably fail of its purpose if it be not supplemented by some such measure as I propose. The Sweated Industries Bill only deals with tailoring, dress-making and shirt-making, the intention of its promoters being to ask the House to consent to try an experiment. The automatic operation of this Bill would not go beyond the lines of the experiment. The power to extend its operation to other trades under this Bill and under the Sweated Industries Bill would lie with the Home Secretary, and with the Home Secretary all initiative would rest. I beg to move.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 98; Noes, 155.
Division No. 40.] AYES [4.0 p.m. Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.) Bottomley, Horatio Alden, Percy Banbury, Sir Frederick George Bridgeman, W. Clive Anstruther-Gray, Major Banner, John S. Harmood- Burnyeat, W. J. D. Ashley, W. W. Barnard, E. B. Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Balcarres, Lord Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Carlile, E. Hildred Baldwin, Stanley Bignold, Sir Arthur Castlereagh, Viscount Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hay, Hon. Claude George Randles, Sir John Scurrah Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Hill, Sir Clement Rees, J. D. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Hodge, John Renwick, George Cleland, J. W. Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Clive, Percy Archer Hudson, Walter Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Clynes, J. R. Jenkins, J. Robinson, S. Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Jowett, F. W. Ronaldshay, Earl of Cooper, G. J. Kavanagh, Walter M. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Stanier, Beville Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Starkey, John R. Craik, Sir Henry Kerry, Earl of Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Crooks, William Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Steadman, W. C. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lane-Fox, G. R. Summerbell, T. Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.) Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lowe, Sir Francis William Taylor, John W. (Durham) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) Du Cros, Arthur M'Arthur, Charles Tuke, Sir John Batty Everett, R. Lacey Magnus, Sir Philip Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Faber, George Denison (York) Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Wilkie, Alexander Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Fardell, Sir T. George Morpeth, Viscount Wodehouse, Lord Fletcher, J. S. Morrison-Bell, Captain Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Gardner, Ernest Newdegate, F. N. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Younger, George Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Hamilton, Marquess of O'Shaughnessy, P. J. TELLEES FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Harris, Frederick Leverton Powell, Sir Francis Sharp H. H. Marks and Mr. Fell. Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Pretyman, E. G.
NOES Agnew, George William Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Norton, Capt. Cecil William Ainsworth, John Stirling Gulland, John W. Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Ashton, Thomas Gair Gurdon, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Brampton O'Brien, K, (Tipperary, Mid) Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Halpin, J. Partington, Oswald Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Harcourt, Rt. Hn. L. (Rossendale) Paulton, James Mellor Barran, Sir John Nicholson Harcourt Robert V. (Montrose) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.) Pearce, William (Limehouse) Beale, W. P. Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Pease, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Saff. Wald.) Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Bennett, E. N. Haworth, Arthur A. Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Brigg, John Hayden, John Patrick Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Bright, J. A. Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Reddy, M. Brocklehurst, W. B. Higham, John Sharp Rendall, Athelstan Bryce, J. Annan Hogan, Michael Ridsdale, E. A. Buchanan, Rt. Hon. Thomas R. Hooper, A. G. Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) Buckmaster, Stanley O. Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) Roe, Sir Thomas Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Rogers, F. E. Newman Byles, William Pollard Hyde, Clarendon G. Rose, Charles Day Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Johnson, John (Gateshead) Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Channing, Sir Francis Allston Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Churchill. Rt. Hon. Winston S. Kearley, Sir Hudson E. Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Cobbold, Felix Thornley Kekewich, Sir George Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Kilbride, Denis Sears, J. E. Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Lamont, Norman Shipman, Dr. John G. Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Soares, Ernest J. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) Spicer, Sir Albert Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Levy, Sir Maurice Stanger, H. Y. Cowan, W. H. Lupton, Arnold Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Crossley, William J. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Mackarness, Frederic C. Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Maclean, Donald Trevelyan, Charles Philips Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Ure, Alexander Delany, William M'Callum, John M. Verney, F. W. Devlin, Joseph M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Villiers, Ernest Amherst Duckworth, Sir James M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Walters, John Tudor Duffy, William J. M'Micking, Major G. Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Mallet, Charles E. Waring, Walter Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Manfield, Harry (Northants) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Elibank, Master of Marnham, F. J. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Massie, J. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Erskine, David C. Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Watt, Henry A. Essex, R. W. Menzies, Walter White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Faber, G. H. (Boston) Molteno, Percy Alport Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Falconer, J. Mond, A. Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Fenwick, Charles Money, L. G. Chiozza Williamson, A. Findlay, Alexander Mooney, J. J. Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Morrell, Philip Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) Fuller, John Michael F. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Gibb, James (Harrow) Muldoon, John Glendinning, R. G. Murphy, N. J. (Kilkenny, S.) TELLEES FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Nannetti, Joseph P. Lehmann and Mr. H. Vivian. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)
Business of the House
(Supply.)
moved: "That the Proceedings on the Business of Supply, if under discussion when the Business is postponed this day, be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of Business."
Question put. The House divided: Ayes, 249; Noes, 77.
Division No. 41.] AYES. [4.10 p.m. Adkins, W. Ryland D. Fenwick, Charles M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Agnew, George William Findlay, Alexander M'Micking, Major G. Ainsworth, John Stirling Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Mallet, Charles E. Alden, Percy Fuller, John Michael F. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Armitage, R. Gibb, James (Harrow) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Ashton, Thomas Gair Glendinning, R. G. Marnham, F. J. Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Massie, J. Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Masterman, C. F. G. Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Menzies, Walter Barnard, E. B. Gulland, John W. Molteno, Percy Alport Barnes, G. N. Gurdon, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Brampton Mond, A. Barran, Sir John Nicholson Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Money, L. G. Chiozza Beale, W. P. Halpin, J. Montagu, Hon. E. S. Bellairs, Carlyon Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Belloc, Hilaire Joseph Peter R. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morrell, Philip Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Bennett, E. N. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Muldoon, John Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Murphy, N. J. (Kilkenny, S.) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.) Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard) Bottomley, Horatio Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Nannetti, Joseph P. Boulton, A. C. F. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Brigg, John Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Bright, J. A. Haworth, Arthur A. Nolan, Joseph Brocklehurst, W. B. Hayden, John Patrick Norton, Capt. Cecil William Brooke, Stopford Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Bryce, J. Annan Hedges, A. Paget O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Buchanan, Rt. Hon. Thomas B. Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) Parker, James (Halifax) Buckmaster, Stanley O. Henry, Charles S. Partington, Oswald Burns, Rt. Hon. John Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Paulton, James Mellor Burnyeat, W. J. D. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Higham, John Sharp Pearce, William (Limehouse) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Hobart, Sir Robert Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Byles, William Pollard Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hodge, John Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Hogan, Michael Pullar, Sir Robert Cawley, Sir Frederick Hooper, A. G. Rea, Russell (Gloucester) Channing, Sir Francis Allston Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Rees, J. D. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) Rendall, Athelstan Cleland, J. W. Horniman, Emslie John Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Clynes, J. R. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Ridsdale, E. A. Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hudson, Walter Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Hyde, Clarendon G. Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Idris, T. H. W. Robinson, S. Cooper, G. J. Jenkins, J. Robson, Sir William Snowdon Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Roche, John (Galway, East) Cory, Sir Clifford John Jowett, F. W. Roe, Sir Thomas Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Kavanagh, Walter M. Rogers, F. E. Newman Cowan, W. H. Kearley, Sir Hudson E. Rose, Charles Day Crooks, William Kekewich, Sir George Rowlands. J. Crossley, William J. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Dalziel, Sir James Henry Kilbride, Denis Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Lambert, George Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Lamont, Norman Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Delany, William Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) Sears, J. E. Devlin, Joseph Lehmann, R. C. Shipman, Dr. John G. Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Levy, Sir Maurice Soares, Ernest J. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Spicer, Sir Albert Duckworth, Sir James Lupton, Arnold Stanger, H. Y. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lyell, Charles Henry Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lynch, H. B. Steadman, W. C. Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Strachey, Sir Edward Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Mackarness, Frederic C. Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Ellis, Rt. Hon. John Edward Maclean, Donald Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Erskine, David C. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Summerbell, T. Essex, R. W. MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Esslemont, George Birnie M'Cullum, John M. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Everett, R. Lacey M'Crae, Sir George Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Faber, G. H. (Boston) M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Falconer, James M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Ure, Alexander Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) Verney, F. W. Watt, Henry A. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.) Villiers, Ernest Amherst Whitbread, S. Howard Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Vivian, Henry White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Walters, John Tudor Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Wodehouse, Lord Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Wood, T. M'Kinnon Wardle, George J. Wiles, Thomas Waring, Walter Wilkie, Alexander TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and the Master of Elibank. Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Williamson, A.
NOES. Anson, Sir William Reynell Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Newdegate, F. N. Anstruther-Gray, Major Fardell, Sir T. George Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Ashley, W. W. Fell, Arthur Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Baldwin, Stanley Fletcher, J. S. Pretyman, E. G. Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.) Gardner, Ernest Randles, Sir John Scurrah Banbury, Sir Frederick George Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Renwick, George Banner, John S. Harmood- Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hamilton, Marquess of Ronaldshay, Earl of Bignold, Sir Arthur Harris, Frederick Leverton Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Bowles, G, Stewart Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Seddon, J. Bridgeman, W. Clive Hay, Hon. Claude George Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Hill, Sir Clement Stanier, Beville Carlile, E. Hildred Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Starkey, John R. Castlereagh, Viscount Kerry, Earl of Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kimber, Sir Henry Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.) Cecil, Lord John P. Joicey- Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Cecil. Lord E. (Marylebone, E.) Lane-Fox, G. R. Tuke, Sir John Batty Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Clive, Percy Archer Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Lowe, Sir Francis William Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Corbett, T. L. (Down, North) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) M'Arthur, Charles Younger, George Craik, Sir Henry Magnus, Sir Philip Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- Marks, H. H. (Kent) TELLEES FOR THE NOES.—Sir A. Acland-Hood and Lord Balcarres. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Du Cros, Arthur Morpeth, Viscount Faber, George Denison (York) Morrison-Bell, Captain
[SUPPLY (22nd MARCH).]
Report
Resolution reported: "That 128,000 officers, seamen, and boys be employed for the Sea and Coast Guard Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1910, including 17,719 Royal Marines."
Resolution read a second time.
I beg to move a reduction of the Vote by £100.
There is no money in the Vote.
Then I will move to reduce the Vote by 500 men.
The hon. Member for Sleaford takes precedence; he proposes to reduce the Vote by 20,000 men.
I rise to move the reduction in the forces of the Navy by 20,000. In doing so, I may perhaps say why I differ from the right hon. Member for Dover—
The hon. Member must confine himself now to the men; no general discussion is permissible.
I will, of course, obey your ruling, Sir. The number of men, including Royal Marines, in the Navy 20 years ago was 65,000; to-day there are 128,000, or nearly double the number. But while the number of ships has doubled, the number of men required to man them has not doubled. The tendency nowadays is to have fewer ships, and to have more machinery on board, requiring fewer men to work a given weight of ordnance. Therefore, according to the number of ships that we have, we require fewer men than we had 20 years ago. But, unfortunately, we have gone on increasing the number of men. At the same time we have got, I am happy to say, an increased number in the Reserve. In addition to the 128,000 men, we have 57,000 in the Reserve. While I suggest a reduction in what might be called the regular service, I would propose that it should be done by having a shorter service the effect of which would be to increase the reserve. Men in the reserve cost only about one-tenth as much as the men in the regular service, so that you can have a large reserve at a moderate cost, and consequently get a better supply for the Navy in time of war by having a less supply in time of peace. The long service system deprives us of men who might be very useful in the reserve. If you divide the total cost of the Navy by the number of men, it works out at about £300 per head, while the cost of the reserve works out at about £7.per head. I think we may safely reduce the number of men. The German Navy has about 50,000 men, according to the latest figures I have, and France about 56,000. The Germans have a larger reserve than we have, but our total number including reserve greatly exceeds their's. What I propose is to reduce the number of men of the more .expensive kind in order to increase the number of men of the less expensive type. I have some authority for what I suggest. Lord Brassey and his son, who edits the Navy Annual," have expressed the following opinion:— as at present; the ships would stay at home until the sea had been cleared of the enemy's fleet, so that there would be no difficulty in getting plenty of good men for the Navy in time of war. Therefore there is no reason to pursue this uneconomic method of keeping up a great standing force which is not required. Such a reduction would be advantageous in many ways besides in the direct wages of the men. These men require officers. Moreover, the effect of having this large standing force is not confined to the effective Votes. The men and officers in the standing force come upon the Estimates in later years in the non-effective services; the cost is greatly enhanced by the fact that in later years the men and officers are pensioned off. If we had a short service system with a smaller number of officers, we should have a greatly decreased hon effective Vote in future years. If we continue with this large number of officers and men in time of peace the non-effective Vote in the course of a few years will increase to alarming proportions. Therefore all those who desire an effective Navy should urge the practice of economy in time of peace; otherwise the cost will mount to such an extraordinary sum that not even the Leader of the Opposition when he comes back to power would venture to increase the Estimates to the amount necessary to give us that effective force which we might otherwise have.
I should like to mention reasons why we should have economy. The cost of the men in the Navy—not counting the men in the dockyards—is about £15,000,000. That is a very large sum, and I should like to give an illustration to bring home to the minds of the Committee what an enormous amount it is. Take all the corn-fields of Great Britain, from John o' Groats to Land's End—take the value of all the wheat, oats, barley, potatoes, meadow and clover hay, in a good harvest; the whole value is absorbed in the cost of the armaments of the United Kingdom.
The hon. Member is not entitled to discuss the Army on this Vote. He must confine himself strictly to the men for the Navy.
I thought you would permit me to give that illustration, but if I was wrong I am sorry I have trespassed. May I allude to the rates of pay of these men?
On the next Vote.
I wanted to show the difference in the cost of the regular men and the reserves.
That will come up on the next Vote.
Very well, Sir, that will enable me to relieve the House from listening to any further observations on my Amendment to this Vote.
seconded the Amendment.
Question proposed: That the reduced number of 108,000 officers, seamen, and boys be employed in said service.
I have certainly not risen for the purpose of supporting the reduction of the Vote by 20,000 men. On the contrary, I rise for the purpose of opposing the reduction, and of attempting to show the House good and weighty reasons why I consider the number insufficient. During the course of the debates on the Navy the question of personnel has been referred to on several occasions. I wish to call the attention of the House to a remark which the Secretary to the Admiralty made in the debate yesterday. He said: ships? The hon. Member who moved the reduction pointed out that we have a less number of ships now than we had years ago The number of ships has nothing to do with it. The question which determines the number of men is the size of the ships and the number of men required on board. Considering that we have at present on our warships masses of machinery, guns, and all the other intricate mechanism connected with them requiring a large number of men, it is absolutely necessary to have the requisite number of mea to man the ships. Then we meditate building even more ships, and I naturally ask if we are to build more, where are we to get the men to man them. The Secretary of the Admiralty pointed with pride to the fact that we have in the fleet reserve 14,482 men. The figure in the estimate says 19,613, but I discovered that these include over 5,000 marines. Therefore, we are reducing the estimate figure to—seamen 10,452, and stokers 4,007. Surely that is an extremely small reserve. I cannot imagine that even the hon. Member himself can maintain that that is a sufficiently large number.
Then I want to ask this important question. It will be in the recollection of the House that when the question of the Army reserve was under discussion we had the astounding statement that 15,000 of that reserve had permission to go abroad, and I asked the question how were they going to get home in time of war, and the answer I got was that they were given a certain amount of money, and that they were to get home the best way they could. I wish to ask this specific question: Have any of these 14,000 or 15,000 men in the fleet reserve permission to go abroad in the same way as the Army reserve? because I think if they have it points to a very serious state of affairs. These men may be abroad very possibly at the time they are wanted, and, if it is a time of panic, they will not be able to get home. I shall await with interest the answer of the hon. Member on this point. The Royal Naval Reserve numbers 23,391, and the hon. Member seemed to be extremely proud of that. I do not see it is anything to be proud of What does it mean? It means that these men are at present serving in the mercantile marine. Is there any guarantee that the ships of the mercantile marine will conveniently come into ports in this country and bring with them the men necessary to supply our ships of war? This point is a matter of serious importance to shipowners. If you take away 23,000 or 24,000 men—British sailors and British firemen—what are you going to replace them with? We have heard complaints about the number of foreigners in British ships. How are you going to replace these reserve men who leave the British ships in time of war and danger to the country? That is the time when you want British seamen in British ships. Are you going to replace them by foreigners? I ask the hon. Member to give particular attention to that question, and I shall await with interest his reply. This is a matter of which British shipowners have the greatest apprehension. We recognise that in time of war British ships will be of the greatest necessity to this country, and it is absolutely necessary at that time that we should get rid of foreigners in the mercantile marine, and if we are to get rid of them, where are you going to get British sailors? This is not only a serious question for shipowners, but it is a serious question for the nation. I cannot imagine that the hon. Member thought that 23,000 or 24,000 of the Royal Naval Reserve—
The Royal Naval Reserve men do not come under this Vote.
It is rather difficult to discuss this question without referring to the reserve necessary to make up the 128,000 men, but I am bound to bow to your ruling. I do maintain that 128,000 men are insufficient for our wants at the present time, especially in view of the fact I have called attention to, namely, that we have not sufficient men to man the ships. Nucleus crews are all very well in their way. Nucleus-crew men are sufficient to navigate a ship in peace time, but they are not sufficient in war time, and if we are to keep down the nucleus crews in peace time, we may well ask where are we to get the men to give full crews in war time. I do not for a moment suggest that we ought to have sufficient men to fully man every ship in time of peace, but I do think that we ought to have a sufficient number of men to insure that every ship that goes into manœuvres, mobilised for the purpose of manœuvres, ought to be able to be manned with a full crew. From this point of view I think the question of the personnel of the Navy is one of the greatest importance. We have also to consider the question of the number of men required for different services in the Navy. That opens out a very large subject to which I think under this Vote I might refer. There are the questions of engi- neers, pensioners, and so on, for they are all included in this Vote. But I am not going to discuss these matters; I am going to be satisfied with having called attention to the points I have mentioned. I go further and demand that that, so far as is possible, you ought to give us some assurance on the points I have named.
I do not follow the attitude of the hon. Member who has just addressed the House, who is willing to reduce the forces by 5 men, though he is unwilling to reduce them by the larger number proposed by the hon. Member for Sleaford. I object to reducing the 128,000 even by 5. I believe every man on the list is wanted, and even if there were more, I would not regret it. It is to me a matter of regret that an amendment of this kind should be moved from this side of the House. It is not likely to be carried, and the numbers in the Division Lobby will show what measure of support it has in the House, but the Amendment exhibits the spirit of irresponsibility which has so unfortunate an effect out of doors, and especially at a time like this, when not only in our own foreign possessions, but in Persia and the Balkans, things are threatening, whilst just across the North Sea the greatest Power in Europe is increasing her fleet, I do submit that the hon. Member who moved the Amendment has forgotten the advice given by the ancient poet: Dulce est desipere in loco. This is not the time nor the place to move a reduction of these men. How can it be reasonable to move such a reduction now, when our fleet of "Dreadnoughts," instead of being increased by four every year for the last three years—
This Vote does not deal with the increase of the fleet.
I wished to show that we were below the strength which should be laid down, and that it should be increased, and, as many hon. Members on this side of the House, including myself, hope that there may be eight "Dreadnoughts" actually commenced this year, it is more and more out of the question to propose a reduction of men in this offhand fashion.
The hon. Member is referring to future necessities and not to the men required in the financial year 1909–10, to which this Vote refers.
A ship can be built in two years, but a bluejacket cannot be turned out under four years, or an officer under seven years. Yet within the last few years there has been a reduction of 2,490 in the aggregate. While this reduction has been made in Great Britain 15,000 men have been added to the men in the German fleet, 10,000 men to the fleet of the United States, and 3,500 men to that of France. While other great Powers are increasing their personnel, how can there be any reason in urging the Government to reduce the number of our men. We have 10,000 men in the Mediterranean and 10,000 in the East, and while our ships are scattered all over the world other Powers can concentrate their strength upon any point. As the Government has taken the power under certain circumstances to build more ships, and will be collecting material for them during the present year, it is obvious that there must be a corresponding increase in men. I do not know whether I should be in order in referring to a Motion which I have put on the paper with reference to the men required to carry out the programmes and to those in the Royal Dockyards.
If the hon. Member will take the trouble to read page 10, he will see exactly what it contained in this Vote.
I felt that I should be out of order, and I approached the subject with some diffidence. I therefore submit again that the proposed reduction which is of an irresponsible character is not likely to meet with any real support in the House. It is regrettable that it should be moved from these benches, and I hope the hon. Member will abstain from going on with it.
A proposal to reduce the personnel of the fleet by 20,000 is one which I cannot entertain for a moment, and I hope that it will not be pressed. I entirely dissent from the opinion that an advantage would lie in increasing your reserve and reducing the active service list of the personnel. That might have been very well in the old days of yards and masts, but in these days of high mechanism it is necessary for men to be constantly in touch with the highly developed mechanism of the modern battleship. The hon. Member asks me if during the last manœuvres the fleet was sent to sea without full crews. I stated last night that on 30th June last year the nucleus crew ships mobilised, and they cruised north along the east coast of England and Scotland. The nucleus crew vessels were completed to full numbers at the home ports, and all the divisions and flotillas left the home ports the same day. That cruise extended to 14th July. The exercises took place from the 16th July to 21st July. There took place in those exercises combined and separately 268 ships of all kinds, including 29 battleships, 23 armoured cruisers, 28 unarmoured cruisers, and 130 destroyers. I have been asked if all these ships had full crews. I said last night that the battleships had, but that I was not sure about all the others. I ought to have said that every one of the ships was commissioned with a full crew. After that I am sure that the mind of the hon. Gentleman opposite will be very much relieved. My hon. Friend demanded an assurance as to the number of the personnel. Perhaps I can make this very clear if I give the figures for a number of years. In 1905–6 the number was 129,000, in 1906–7 it was the same, in 1907–8 it was 128,000, in 1908–9 128,000, and in 1909–10 on this Vote it will be the same. To that you can add a reserve of 58,000 men. As to the fleet reserve men going abroad, every man who does has to get special permission, but very few have applied, so I am advised.
If you reduce the number of men and increase the number of ships, then this becomes a serious matter.
That was the point I am coming to. With the development of ships, and with the contingency of four new ships to be laid down if necessity arises, then I admit that the question of personnel is important on the face of it. But we think that 128,000 men will be enough. I have pointed out in these debates that it is one of the beauties of the "Dreadnought" type of ship—with its uniform armaments, gear, and so on—that the personnel unit has a larger value than in the old ships. I have said that the "Dreadnought" type would be efficiently worked with roughly 100 men less than the "King Edward" type. I ought to have pointed out, as the First Lord pointed out, when these contingent ships are in existence all the "Royal Sovereigns," the "Renown," the "Barfleur," and the "Centurion" will, in the natural course of things be on the Motherbank, and we shall be able to effect a considerable saving in the present complement of men in some of these ships. As these changes take place the earlier ships—the "Majestic" type—two of which are now in full commission, the "Magnificent" and the "Victorious" and the other seven "Majesties" will steadily find their way into a state of obsolescence. I have said that if and when these contingent ships are laid down the Admiralty would be in duty bound at that moment to consider the question of the personnel. The Admiralty would be bound to consider the situation, and yet I am convinced that we shall have plenty of men fully to man all the ships that may under any circumstances be called for in the Estimates. Therefore, because I think the number is fully complete for any contingency, I cannot accept the Amendment. Td reduce the personnel of the Navy by 20,000 is a proposal which could not be entertained for a moment.
I must confess that some of the remarks which have just fallen from the hon. Gentleman have somewhat disturbed my mind. It has been urged that revision in the Estimates for the men should be made for a hypothetical situation which may arise. If the ships are built, what provision have you made in this Vote for men to man them?
I have said that a personnel of 128,000 is fully sufficient.
Then we are to conclude that in the event of the additional programme not being carried into effect, there are too many men now. You cannot have it both ways, and if it were only a point as to the elasticity my anxiety would be much less. What the hon. Gentleman practically told us was this: That ships which are now fully in commission, or, at any rate, have nucleus crews, are to be hurried out of service—
No, I did not say that.
They are to be prematurely hurried to the scrap heap—
No, no; only in the natural course of events.
Yes, but the hon. Gentleman led us to suppose that the natural course of events may be hurried because a shortage of men may otherwise he created by the building of those hypothetical ships, and he mentioned certain ships by name, such as the "Majestic" and the "Victorious," which he said were steadily passing to obsolescence. In the event of those hypothetical ships being built they are to be hastened, and in order that the crews may be turned from them into the new ships, or if the crews are not taken from them altogether, they are, at any rate, to be put into a lower grade with smaller nucleus crews. I do not dogmatise as to the exact moment at which these ships should le graded in the scale, but surely it is not a good reason to allege that it is because of your shipbuilding policy. The fact is that what the Admiralty propose to do is to establish a sort of Procrustean bed for the ships of the Navy for which they will not be fit, in order to agree with the fixed Vote for personnel they are asking for on this occasion. That is not a business-like state of affairs or likely to inspire much confidence as to the particular number of men in this Vote. I really do not think the hon. Gentleman has given us any explanation which will hold water or that could be considered by us as satisfactory. I hope the Civil Lord, when he comes to speak, will deal with this matter, and do something to remove our misapprehension with regard to it. Now, as one has only one opportunity of speaking on this Vote at this stage, I should like to address a question or two to the Admiralty with regard to certain items. First, with regard to the Royal Marines, I see there is a reduction this year of some 700 men in the strength of the Royal Marine. That process of the reducing of the Royal Marine has been going on steadily for the last few years, and it is a process which I at any rate view with extreme concern, and more so because the Admiralty has given us no sort of statement of policy with regard to it; they have not fold us whether they have any policy with regard to the maintenance of the marine force. We see every year a small reduction. We have heard no answer to the question in this House, except that there are certain difficulties in the way of recruiting for the marine force: that recruits do not generally come forward. There may be something in that, but is the Admiralty going to tell us here and now that the only reason for reducing the Royal Marine is that they cannot get recruits 1 If so, that is unanswerable, but is that the true reason, or have they considered a policy for the gradual reduction and eventual elimination from the service of the Royal Marines? If that is their policy, we on this side of the House will feel bound to oppose it. I do not think there is anyone who has any connection with the Navy in any capacity, and who has seen the marines at work, but must know that they are the very pick and flower of both services of His Majesty's forces. Both in regard to physique, intelligence, and even in the discharge of what may be called purely naval duties, they are in no respect behind the bluejacket. Take the records of the service, and you will always find that the marines have come out on top, and that altogether they have established a claim in the interest of the fleet to the most favourable consideration at the hands of the Admiralty. I hope the Admiralty will take the opportunity of explaining to us definitely the reasons for the reduction of this 700 men, and for making this reduction at this particular time. They have admitted by their own estimates that they are contemplating certain construction of ships which will require marines among their complement, and I press for an answer as to whether this is in pursuance of a definite policy that these kind of reductions have been carried out from year to year, constituting as they do great hardships to non-commissioned officers and officers of the Royal Marine. I think if this step is going to be taken of reducing the force then in the interest of the service they ought to know what the policy of the Government is in order that they may consider what provision they may have to make for their future.
Now there is another matter. There are certain particulars in this Vote under Section 1, 2, 3 of Vote A 8 "shipbuilding repairs and maintenance," I presume in the various dockyards. I wish to ask the Admiralty whether it is a fact as has been communicated to me, that in the last week or so instructions have been sent down to the various yards to reduce the number of men employed in the yards. If that is the case it seems to me a very strange moment to choose for such reduction in view of what is going on.
That question does not arise on this Vote.
I quite see the point. I was only asking for information. All I say is that there are a certain number of men borne upon the Vote, and I am told there is a reduction. What I wish to ask is whether any of the men included under this head are those who are going to be reduced, and if not, what men are they? I quite see on this Vote we cannot discuss the dockyards.
It is only a reduction of three men.
Yes, Sir; but I understand that orders have been issued since. No doubt the Admiralty will tell us later on. I have no desire to press this point now. With regard to the other matters—the Royal Marine and the means by which our ships are to be put upon the scrap heap to find men for the ships coming on?
No, no. I did not say that—
In regard to these matters I think some explanation should be given to us more full than what we have had.
I associate myself entirely with the remarks that have fallen from the hon. Member for Fareham with reference to the Royal Marine. I think it is time that the Admiralty gave us some information with regard to these repeated reductions of the Royal Marine force. It would be impossible to find one executive naval officer who does not think most highly of that force and who does not deplore its reduction. I do not wish now to refer to the question of nucleus crews, because I think we ought to get this question of policy discussed under the Admiralty Vote, and I would ask the First Lord will he tell us when he will set up the Admiralty Vote for discussion this year, so that we may bring up all these questions of Admiralty administration for review.
When the Civil Lord gets up to reply I would like him to explain why there is a great rise in the cost of personnel as against 1904–5. I find, on referring to page 4 of the Estimates, there is a decrease of 2,490 men. I do not understand why the cost of personnel has increased so much when the numbers have been reduced. There is an increase of £769,000, while there is a decrease of 2,490 men. It is only fair to state that £168,000 of that is for pensions, but for the rest there must be some reason. I associate myself to the full with my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomery Boroughs in deploring the fact that a reduction of 20,000 men should be moved from this side of the House. I do not think the hon. Member who moved it fully appreciates the fact that we have something like 20,000 men abroad, and that if you reduce the personnel of the Navy you reduce at the same time the demands of Empire. It is owing to the demands in the Colonial Office and the Foreign we have to keep so many men abroad' and have so large a personnel. The German Navy have about 3,000 men abroad and America has about 4,000. If we add the German personnel and the American we find that they amount to about 114,684 men. This country, because of our vast Empire, keep abroad 13,000 men more than Germany and America abroad—a num- ber which, when added to the total personnel of Germany and America gives you 127,864 men, or almost the exact amount which the Admiralty Are asking for in this Vote. The hon. Member for Sleaford wanted to increase the reserve and reduce the personnel. I cannot imagine an hon. Member with engineering experience and knowing what complicated machinery there is on board a ship wanting to reduce the permanent forces and to increase the reserve forces in connection with such a service. The development of invention which is going on and also the fact that men would come in to serve who have been away from naval experience is quite enough to condemn such a proposal. Men have to be in the Navy a long time In advance in order to keep up with its requirements.
May I explain? I said the engines that were put on board did the work which was previously done by men. Therefore fewer men were employed, as is known to everybody who knows anything about naval matters.
The hon. Gentleman 'has not made out a case for substituting reserves or met the argument that the men on board must be familiar with this machinery, and if you take away so many men from the ships—
You force the men into the reserves.
My argument holds good. The men in the reserves will be unfamiliar with the machinery after three or four years on shore. The Navy does not want such large reserves. If he were referring to the Army for the purpose of increasing the reserves there might be some sense in it, because in the Army the waste of war is the waste of men. In the Navy, however, the waste of war is the waste of matériel, and if the ships are destroyed or have to go into the dockyard less men are required. It is a question of matériel, not men, and we do not want a reserve. As to personnel, having studied the figures of recent years since 1904–5 I find we have decreased by 2,490 officers and men, and comparatively with us Germany increased 15,790 and the Americans 15,305 men. It is said that whatever we did, whenever America chose she could absolutely swamp this country and beat this country, but the difficulties that America has to encounter we do not have to encounter. They are difficulties of personnel, and I would point out to the Committee that the desertions in the American Navy almost exactly balance the number of men entered, as 5,447 were accepted and 5,036 deserted, and that makes no allowance for the loss of men from other causes, including imprisonment and death. It represents 9 per cent, of the enlisted force, and it would be extremely difficult for them to get the men even at the very high rate of pay that they give. Their personnel costs something like eight times that of the German and considerably more than double our own personnel per man. The First Lord of the Admiralty said we arranged our personnel in order to man 50 battleships. Shortly after that on the succeeding day the Prime Minister said that we should have 40 pre-"Dreadnought" battleships in 1912. We have also been told that we shall have 20 "Dreadnought" ships, and therefore we shall have to man 60 ships. But the First Lord only referred to 50, and that either points to the fact that we cannot have 40 pre-"Dreadnought" vessels in 1912, and that we shall scrap a great many of these before that year, or that the First Lord of the Admiralty will have to come down to this House and ask for a very much larger number of men than 128,000. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will address himself to that point when he replies.
I should like to draw the attention of the First Lord of the Admiralty to a matter which was touched upon on an Amendment to the King's Speech, and which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Donegal, on 20th February, 1906, and continued the next day. I refer to a circular which was issued by the Lords of the Admiralty, addressed to the officers commanding squadrons, stations, and fleets, and dealing with summary punishment (birching and caning). It stated that my Lords the Commissioners had decided that the punishment of birching as provided for in the King's regulations should be suspended in the case of boys and youths under training, and those serving until further orders. It also dealt with the punishment of caning for those over 21.
I do not see how that arises on the question of the number of men. The question which the House is now considering is what is the number of men to be employed in the Navy for the next year.
With great respect, Is it not in order to ask a question about the treatment of boys who are borne on this Vote?
I do not think that has any reference to the number of men. What the House is now asked to Vote is the particular number of men and boys. What pay they receive and what treatment they receive does not arise on this Vote.
I desire to ask the Admiralty what proportion a nucleus crew bears to the crew or complement on board ship. I think I am right in saying that it is 40 per cent. I was very much surprised to hear the hon. and gallant Member for King's Lynn say that in the Army we have wastage of war and in the Navy not. I was astonished to hear him say that, and I want to ask the Admiralty as to whether allowance has been made for the wastage of war in the fleet as a fighting force. I cannot understand for the life of me how they can omit that most important question, and I thought I should have heard as one of the explanations of this very large number of men that the Department have to provide for the wastage of war, the moment you come to consider them as a fighting force. I do not deny for a moment that we have to think of the loss of matériel, the loss of ships as well, but surely we have to think of the loss of men, and it is not a complete answer for Members to say that when your ship goes down your men go down with it, and therefore you do not want men. I should have thought that of these men, whom we all know require so many years training, and who are of such intense value to us and to our country, we must provide a surplusage for filling up the places of those men that are lost as war wastage. It seems to me that this matter should be taken seriously into account, and I hope that when the First Lord comes to speak he will tell us exactly what margin he is proposing to leave to supply the wastage of war. Then I should like to know what margin is left for the supply of the more expert men who have to do with the machinery—what margin is to be applied in the case of the loss of men of this class. I have no doubt that has all been carefully thought out, but it does seem to me that under the modern conditions of warfare—the modern man-o'-war is an immense mass of machinery—we should be told what proportion on these ships the trained expert men bear to the ordinary crew, and how far that proportion can be maintained by the number that are in the Navy to-day. I desire to ask this question in no way as wishing to criticise the number as a whole or to support in any way the Motion for reduction, which, I must say, I do not think has been very strongly supported to-day, but it is a question in which we are all so much interested that I wish to get some information from the Admiralty.
I only rise to answer one question, and the Civil Lord will be good enough to reply to the other questions raised. The question is that put by the hon. Gentleman opposite as regards the provision of numbers to meet the requirements of the new ships now building. I understand that there is some alarm felt that we shall scrap ships without regard to their usefulness in the fleet, but solely with the desire to keep our numbers down to the particular figure of 128,000. I can assure him that on that point alarms are quite groundless. I think he will agree with me that the moment you get a ship of greatly superior fighting capacity it pays you much better to scrap old ships—two or three old ships—and build one of these new ships rather than keep old ships in existence. If you wish for a given amount of fighting power you may maintain that fighting capacity in various ways. You may keep in your fighting list old ships, say half a dozen ships of the "Royal Sovereign" type, or you may think that two or three "Dreadnoughts" will do the work of those six "Royal Sovereigns," and do it much better. The question will come whether you shall spend your money in building two or three new ships and put these other ships out of the Service, or whether you will keep the older ships. If the hon. Gentleman says, "I would keep the older ships and build three 'Dreadnoughts' as well," I would put it to him that it would be better to build the still further three "Dreadnoughts" and scrap the old ships. Therefore, the argument must come to the decision of the question when it pays to scrap the older ships and replace them by a number of new ships. That is quite independent of the building of new ships in order to maintain the general level of the fleet, and the question which the Board of Admiralty always keep in mind is how to obtain the maximum degree of efficiency at a given cost. You may increase your cost according to national emergency, but if you decide that you want to spend a certain amount of money you have to determine how you can get the best value for that money. We know that in view of the greatly increased power of the modern warship it would pay us better as the years go by to scrap some of the older warships. Consequently, in 1912 we look forward to "Royal Sovereign," and older ships still, no longer remaining on the active list. Consequently, we shall be able to find a sufficient number of men during the coming year—I will not commit myself as to the year after, I am only dealing now with the year 1909–10—to meet all the requirements of that year merely by the passing of the older ships, which are no longer worth maintaining, into the Special Reserve. There is not, consequently, the least reason to anticipate that, because we are increasing our matériel and not increasing our numbers in the same proportion, our ships will be inadequately manned. The alarm is quite without foundation. My hon. Friend who moved the reduction has very truly stated that anyone with any experience of plant knows that all improvements result in labour-saving, and we get now the greater fighting capacity of the "Dreadnought" with an actual reduction of men over those employed in the older ships. I think the House may be well assured that in the provision we are making in this year's Estimates we shall have fully sufficient numbers to man the ships.
The right hon. Gentleman really did not answer the point I put forward in his absence. How can the fixed total of men, 128,000, apply equally and be sufficient for the programme of four new ships and also for the possible number of eight?
There the hon. Gentleman has fallen into the error of supposing that 128,000 is a fixed number. It is 128,000 that we are proposing as a sufficient number for the year 1909–10. In 1910–11 according to the emergencies of the moment it may be less or more.
It takes five years to train them.
There again my hon. Friend has forgotten for the moment his experience at the Admiralty. We shall have no difficulty at all in increasing our number. We have always a number leaving the Navy who would be glad to stay on if we would keep them. We are very fortunate in that respect. The Navy is such a popular service. For instance during the last few months we have had to exclude men from the Navy, to close recruiting and not allow men to continue in their service after the first period is over. We have to keep the numbers down. There is no ground for the hon. Gentleman's alarm.
May I withdraw the Motion I have made?
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question put and Vote agreed to.
Resolution reported, "That a sum of £7,280,300 be granted to defray the expense of wages, etc., to officers, seamen, boys, coastguard, and Royal Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1910." (Vote 1, page 18.)
Question proposed, "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said resolution."
, in moving to reduce the Vote by £2,000,000, said: If I had had a little more time in thinking over the amount I should have put it at £1,200,000 instead of £2,000,000. I think we pay a great deal too much in the salaries of our officers. We have about 4,700 officers, who cost about £1,432,000 in salaries, or about £304 each. If we add the pensions it comes to about £500 each. I am quite sure, if the Navy is such a popular service, that you would have no difficulty in getting any number of the finest men in England as officers in the Navy at £150 a year. I have .no doubt about that, because I know lots of men who would be very pleased to have a nice comfortable living and get a wage like that. To show that there is some reason in that, we have 92,000 petty officers and seamen who are glad to come at £45 a year each. What is the reason for giving the officers nearly seven times as much as the average of the men? That does not apply in any other business. In the coal pits with which I am connected the working man gets 10s. a day, but the men who manage them do not get £3 10s. a day. They get very little more than the collier is getting. There is no reason for applying this very high rate of salary to the officers particularly, as the position of officer has great privileges, and many a man would sooner be an officer even though he had no more wages than if he were a man. These high wages are not paid because it is difficult to get officers. If you divide the pension sum by the total number of men on the strength you add on to the wages £12 a year, which makes £57 a year that we spend on the men, apart from victualling and lodging. To give some illustration of what I call extravagance, we have three admirals who get £3,968 a year each. I do not know on what ground we should pay that and a great many allowances as well. They enter the Navy when they are boys, and grow up, and if they got £300 when they became admirals they would not be any less clever than they are now. If they were paid according to their brains and their capacity it might pay to offer a man £30,000 a year to induce him to leave some other country and enter the King's service, and it might be money well spent, but these men are not got by competition or by inducing them to give up the mercantile service and enter the King's service. They do not become any cleverer by having a large salary. The inspectors of mines, who require quite as much science and have to work much longer hours and have a less agreeable occupation, can be got, assistant inspectors for £300 and chief inspectors for £600 a year, and by wonderful energy men can get up to £1,000 a year in extreme cases. Why should the admirals, who have a so much easier time of it, get all this? It is entirely an ancient tradition and if there was an intention to manage the Navy with economy and give us the best for our money we could begin at once and cut down these large salaries. The Financial Secretary does not get as big a salary as an admiral, and yet the admiral has a certain position and a pension at the end of it. The hon. Gentleman, whose talents we all admire, has a very uncertain position, and will have no pension at the end of it. He deserves, owing to the uncertainty of his position, a higher salary than an admiral, and therefore I think these men with a fixed position, who have grown up in the service and been trained by us, by experiments upon our ships, running them ashore and wrecking them, and bursting guns, and every sort of mistake that a man can make, should have their salaries reduced. We have 21 admirals, costing £71,000 a year, or an average of £2,500 each. That is a monstrous extravagance. It is all very well if you have the money to give away, but to take it from people by taxes and then fling it away shows very little regard to economy. I am not blaming the Financial Secretary and his colleagues. I know they have inherited it. But they have a strong majority at their backs. It is now or never for the next 50 years or so, and if they do not tackle it now who can be expected to tackle it? We have 2,559 captains, who get £276 on an average, without reckoning the pensions afterwards. I think that is a great deal too much.
The cost of the Navy is equal to an income tax of 1s. 3d. in the £. That is a reason why we should go in for economy. I do not grudge any little income tax which I pay; my income is so slight that the tax is insignificant, and I should not grudge it if I had to pay 2s. in the £ for any good purpose, but I do not see why I should be taxed in order to pay £4,000 a year to gentlemen who, I think, have a much easier position than even such a humble Member of the House as I am.
There being no seconder the motion fell to the ground.
There is a considerable amount of anxiety at present as to what the Admiralty intend to do with regard to the coastguard service, and the matter is of very serious importance as regards those districts of England where the coasts are dangerous and where the watching is at present largely done by the coastguard. I believe the Admiralty admit that the duties of a coastguard are threefold. They say it is the duty of the coastguard to look after revenue matters, to look after war stations, to look out for possible enemies, and that they are also placed in those stations in order that there may be a more ready manning of His Majesty's Navy in time of war. A Departmental Conference was held in 1907 dealing with all three of these duties. It says:—
"With regard to the question of the defence of the coasts of the realm the naval view is that this object will be more effectively carried out by transferring all the coastguard men to the service afloat, except those required to man permanently the war signal and wireless telegraph stations—a personnel of about 600."
Then, with regard to the question of the more ready manning of His Majesty's Navy in case of war, the Conference says:—
"The naval view is that this object is better obtained by keeping the coastguard men in His Majesty's ships in peace time, and this would be a cheaper method as the large cost of housing the men ashore would be saved."
With regard to the question of the protection of the revenue, it says:—
"The naval view is that the protection of the Revenue for the purposes of the Customs is no longer a duty which should fall upon the Navy, more especially in view of the necessity for not only reducing naval expenditure but also concentrating all such expenditure on one object, righting efficiency and immediate readiness for war, and it is considered that the Board of Customs could establish such force as they may consider necessary for the purpose of their control."
At first sight one wonders what would be the object of the Departmental Conference in making these somewhat drastic recommendations. It appears in a later paragraph, in which it says:—
"In view of the above, the Admiralty express the opinion that the greater part of the heavy annual expenditure which falls on the Navy Vote for the maintenance of the coastguards is not now necessary, and for preventive purposes it would be more economical to replace the present expensive naval organisation by a civilian service limited to the special requirements of the Board of Customs."
I want to know what is the policy of the Admiralty going to be with regard to these recommendations. I hope that, for the sake of a very small economy, they are not going to do away with the good work that is being done by the coastguards up and down the country in watching the dangerous portions of the coast. Even my hon. Friend who has just moved a reduction in the Vote would agree to spend the money on the coastguards.
I hope for reductions in some directions in order that the money saved may be spent on useful and necessary forces.
Then we are all in absolute agreement as to voting the money necessary to make the Coastguard Service fully efficient. It is with regard to this question of watching the coast in times of stormy and severe weather that I want the Secretary to the Admiralty to give us his view; because I was present some time ago at an inquiry to which the Board of Admiralty sent down a representative to give evidence, and that gentleman in the course of his evidence said that it is no part of the duty of the coastguards to watch the coasts in times of stormy weather. I regret that if it be so. I believe that from the technical point of view that that is true, but not from the practical point of view. The House will be somewhat astonished to learn that there is no statutory duty on any public department—neither on the Admiralty nor the Board of Trade—with regard to watching the dangerous coasts of this country in stormy weather and looking after those seamen who have the misfortune to be wrecked. Though there may be no statutory duty the Admiralty have, without doubt, undertaken this duty for a very long time. By established custom or usage the coastguards have watched the dangerous coasts of this country. I for one sincerely hope that they will continue to do so, because I believe that, taken as a whole, they have done it extremely well. At that inquiry of which I speak, I had the pleasure of seeing a large number of these coastguards, and I never saw a finer or fitter body of men—all absolutely competent to do not only the work for which, they were engaged, but also in war or in any emergency I am sure they would have done good service on board His Majesty's ships. Now that we hear so much about reduction of the coastguard stations, I hope that the Secretary to the Admiralty will make it perfectly plain that before the Board of Admiralty run any risk whatever in abolishing any coastguard station which may be useful for life-saving purposes, they will first of all interview the Board of Trade and see that the Board of Trade takes over these duties if they do-not intend to carry them on themselves. Personally, so long as the duty is done, so long as the coast is watched, and so long as the lives of the seamen are protected, I do not particularly care which public Department does the work; but at present the Board of Admiralty say that they have no statutory duty with regard to it, and the Board of Trade say the same, and the coastguard stations are being abolished; and we have not so far got any satisfactory answer out of the Board of Admiralty. I hope sincerely that the Secretary to the Admiralty will be able to give us some satisfactory assurance on this point with regard to this coastguard service, and will be able to allay that uneasiness with regard to the protection of the lives of sailors and seamen which is felt by so many people who live on the coastline of this country.
I desire to support the remarks of the hon. Member who' has just spoken. My first word would be in support of the coastguards. The hon. Member said quite truly that the coastguards form a fine type of reserve to man the ships of the Royal Navy. They also form the nucleus very largely along the coast of my own county of the lifeboat crews who go forth on stormy nights at the risk of their own lives to save the lives of others. They are the very class of men whom the Government ought to be the very last to try to reduce; the men who are doing this work on behalf of humanity; men who would form a most useful auxiliary if we had to collect these additional crews which have been referred to this afternoon. I very cordially agree with the appeal to the Government not to break up hastily this important branch of the naval service.
I think it a great pity that the coastguard Vote should be reduced, if it means, as I presume it does, either a decrease in the number of coastguard stations or in the personnel of the coastguards. It was only the other day I asked what the intentions were with regard to my own Constituency the coast of Fife, and I was told that the coastguard stations were not to be decreased there, but I could get no assurance as to the personnel. I should like very much if the right hon. Gentleman on the Government bench could give us some assurance as to the intentions of the Government in that respect. There is no finer body of men in the British Islands than the coastguards, and there are no more useful men. They form a reserve that would be of infinite use in case of war. They know the coasts and the people of the coasts. They know the fishermen and how to get recruits if recruits were wanted. The coastguard service is often the reward for long and faithful service in the Navy, and the help they have rendered in life-saving, and in the prevention of wrecks, and in other maritime matters, is, I think, inestimable. I am sure it was the greatest mistake to withdraw any of these men not only from the coasts of Fife but the coast of Great Britain. In these days, when we are liable to what Members on the opposite benches are pleased to call scares about the Navy, I think it is a very reassuring thing to know that some of the bulldogs of Old England watch for a foreign fleet if a foreign fleet is coming with hostile intentions, and we shall all sleep more soundly in our beds, if the coastguards are to be strengthened instead of being decreased.
I should like to ask the solitary representative of the Government now in the House one or two questions on this Vote, but before I do so I wish to point out to the hon. Member for Sleaford that I think, he is mistaken in thinking that the pay of the admirals should be reduced. He objects to their pay being increased owing to there being two more admirals on this Vote than there were last year, and the sum, I think, is £2,600 a year.
£3,900 a year.
Whatever it is I would point out that the pay of the admiral is a small matter in comparison with the work they do in protecting our shores and safeguarding our commerce.
Are they on our coasts, or are they in Pall Mall?
That I cannot answer; I would say some of them are on our coasts. The most efficient certainly was on the coast until there was some extraordinary manœuvre by which the admiral in question hauled down his flag. I believe he did that yesterday, and I believe it was owing to the party of which the hon. Member is such an adornment. But even if some of these admirals are in Pall Mall they are willing to go on board ship whenever it is necessary for them to do so, and, therefore, I think that the remarks of the hon. Gentleman do not do credit to the sound common sense which he usually displays. The hon. Gentleman is remarkable in this House for the common sense which he brings to bear on matters of this sort, and I really think he rather betrayed his usual reputation in intervening to raise a debate upon such a small question as to whether the compensation which an admiral receives should be £2,600 or £2,900, or £3,600 or £3,900, as the case may be. I see that the wages of officers, seamen, and boys have increased from £6,204,821 to £6,403,121, an increase of £198,300. Turning to the next page, where the details of this Estimate are set out, I find that it is apparently accounted for by an increase in the number of officers and seamen. They have increased from 91,315 to 91,978, and the sum payable has increased to £4,179,379 from £4,033,225. I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman why it is that such a large sum as £198,300 has produced such a very small result. With this Government of economists and people versed in business matters and the general attributes of efficiency, I should have thought that with the expenditure of such a large sum we should have obtained larger results. I do not object to this increase; on the contrary if I were able under the rules of the House to move to increase that sum, I should have much pleasure in doing so, and unlike the hon. Member for Sleaford, I think I should find a Seconder.
The next item I wish to allude to is Item B, on Page 18, which deals with coastguards, to which allusion has already been made in the very powerful speech of the hon. Member for Barnstaple. The hon. Member raised the point as to whether it is wise that the pay of the coastguards should be reduced. I notice it is reduced here by £8,127. I think the hon. Member rather missed the point, because this is not the first time the pay of the coastguards has been reduced, and I may add that it is not the first time that assurances have been given that the pay will not be reduced in the future. The same fatal policy has been persisted in, and again we are face to face with a reduction. Even so great an economist as the hon. Member for Sleaford would not consider that £8,137 was a reduction worth making. From the point of view of the most inveterate economist the greatest partisan for a small sum of money to be spent on the Navy, a reduction of £8,137 in the pay of one of the best services in the Navy is so trifling that it is hardly worth making. The coastguards fill very many useful positions, and this service is a great attraction to men entering the navy; they also provide a splendid reserve from which men can be drawn easily and at once, should the contingency arise. There are other points which go to show that the coastguards form an extremely useful body, and for these reasons their pay should not be diminished, but rather increased.
How great would be the use of the coastguards in the event of an invasion, because they would be able to concentrate their forces upon a given place. They would have knowledge of the locality, and they would know the range that a hostile fleet was in when it approached near the shore. They would be able to guide the Territorials or any other military force, and I think it is pretty evident that to have a body of men all along the line of our coast thoroughly conversant with the coast and with all the details of seamanship, and provided with all the facilities for ascertaining what is going on would be a very great advantage, which, instead of attempting to destroy, the Government ought to strengthen. Ever since the present Government took office they have tried to destroy the coastguards, and every year the pay of these extremely useful men has been reduced.
I now turn to another subject, namely, the Royal Marines. I notice there has been a decrease in their pay by £18,233. I have always heard that the Royal Marines are one of the finest bodies of men that have ever been instituted in this or any other country. They possess an extraordinary discipline and a great knowledge of their duties, and altogether they are men who have carried the flag of England in the most glorious manner on every occasion on which they have ever been employed. In the face of these facts, I want to know why the Admiralty has reduced the allowance to the Royal Marines. Turning to Item D, I find that there is no corresponding increase in the pay of the headquarters staff. I notice there is an increase in the service afloat and a decrease in the service on shore. I am sorry there are not more marines training on shore and learning their duties ready to go on board ship.
I find that there has been a reduction in 1,300 in the number of the marines. I am sorry to see this because the marines are an extremely useful body, easy to train, because they must be conversant not only with the duties on board ship but also with the duties of soldiers, and it is a fatal policy for a mere bagatelle in the way of economy to reduce such an efficient body of men in this way. I would like to have an assurance that reductions in the coastguards has at last ceased; that the reduction of the pay of the coastguards has also ceased; and that the intention of the Admiralty in the future is rather to increase the pay of these men. I should like to have the same assurance in regard to the marines. These are modest requests upon which I hope the Secretary to the Admiralty will be able to give me some assurances.
I also want to know what is the reason for the decrease in the Contingencies item on page 22. I notice here that there has-been a reduction in the cost of the water supply, and I would like to know why this temperance Government has suddenly decreased the water supply by something like £500. What is the advantage of decreasing the water supply in this way? I am sure the hon. Member for Sleaford will not approve of that. I have only one further question. I want to know why the recruiting expenses have gone up? The recruiting for seamen and boys has increased from £1,600 to £2,400, and the medical officers' expenses have also increased. The expenses of recruiting for the marines has also risen from £913 to £1,369. There again it seems to me that we have got practically no value for our money, because the results obtained have not been satisfactory in regard to those gentlemen to whom we are paying higher salaries. I have not had time to go into all the details. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh,"] I think hon. Members opposite would be better employed if they joined with me in endeavouring to check wasteful expenditure and in seeing that the money is spent in the best possible way. Now I hope I have made my request clear, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will be able to give me assurances on the points stated.
I want to emphasise what has been said with regard to the coastguard. I am not against economy, nor afraid of invasion, that we require the coastguard to watch the shores, as my hon. Friend has so eloquently spoken about. It is what is behind this economy that I am concerned about. We are told that year after year we have economy with regard to the coastguard. There seems to be a great deal of uncertainty as to what the Government's intentions are so far as the coastguard are concerned, and there seems to be a great doubt as to what the duties of the coastguard are. I, representing a seaport, have always been led to believe that it was the duty of the coastguard to give assistance with regard to watching the coast in case of storm, erosion, etc., and yet we are told, though it may be understood that it is their duty, yet it is not so. The sooner we have the duties of the coastguard defined the better. There seems to be an idea outside amongst the men themselves, and amongst the Customs, that it is the intention of the Government to make some drastic changes so far as these men are concerned.
Are we to have these changes piecemeal by this system of economy, or does the Government intend this year to give the House the opportunity of expressing its opinion in regard to the changes suggested by the Committee that sat some time ago? I want to emphasise this to the hon. Gentleman in charge here today, so that he may make a definite statement to this House; that in so far as the coastguard is concerned, both with regard to the present and future, he will be able to tell the House so that the House will have the opportunity of fully discussing whatever the changes the Government may think fit to recommend with regard to these men. It is the uncertainty that exists in the minds of the people at the present time when we have on the Estimates here a matter of £10,500 for economy—£8,000 in regard to salaries, and over £2,000 in regard to contingencies—well, one is compelled to ask one's self as to whether the Government is not gradually but surely making changes without this House having the opportunity of expressing their opinion thereon. It is with that object that I appeal to him to make a statement to the House.
I desire to associate myself with the appeal which has been made by my hon. Friend in regard to the question of the coastguard. There is a certain anxiety felt all around the coast in regard to this question, in spite of what appeared to be pretty full pledges given by the Government about this time last year. I understand the Government have given some sort of assurances to private parties outside. What we desire is that they should repeat here in this House, taking the full responsibility, the pledges which we took to have been given last year by the Civil Lord of the Admiralty. On the 3rd of March last he used the following words:—
"The Admiralty are fully aware of the strong feeling that exists, and will do nothing to interfere with the efficient discharge of the life-saving duties at present undertaken by the coastguard."
I would call attention to the fact that "life-saving duties" is a somewhat different matter to launching the lifeboats and taking charge of the life-saving apparatus. It is a wider view. Then, again, the late Secretary to the Admiralty said on the 10th March, in reply to a question:—
"My hon. Friend has asked me whether those parts of the coast watched with the life-saving apparatus will be continued to be watched by His Majesty's coastguard? "
Whatever His Majesty's Government intend to say, there is no failure with regard to the life-saving apparatus. What we do fear is that in some of the stretches of lonely and dangerous coasts the number of these men may be reduced, so there is a risk of a vessel running ashore, and of lives being lost before the information can be given for the life-saving apparatus. I have risen only for the purpose of asking the representative of the Admiralty to give us a definite pledge that the coastguard, or some substitute, will continue to watch the coasts, as well as attend to the apparatus.
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers, I wish to make this point: That we have had now in successive years reductions in the numbers and pay both of the coastguard and the marines. These reductions have not apparently been chance reductions, but they have been continuous, and I would like to ask whether the Admiralty have a policy which involves the abolition—the right hon. Gentleman shakes his head—I would not suggest that—but a serious reduction in the numbers. I do think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that it is not a policy which should be carried out piecemeal and by driblets, without the House having the opportunity of hearing his definite statement of what the policy is. I should be the last to get up here and suggest that the Admiralty would attempt to carry out any such policy without having adequate reasons for it. But the right hon. Gentleman can easily understand that what has been proceeding for the last three years naturally arouses feelings of—may I use the word "suspicion"—that something is being done that we do not quite understand, and that may lead us further than the House may be willing to go.
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman realises how very deeply the question of the coastguard enters into the national life. There is not a child who has been at the seaside but has absorbed from his contact with the coastguard ideas of the Navy. The coastguard, I am quite certain, have a great influence upon national feeling with regard to the Navy. They maintain naval traditions and a naval standard at all points on our coast in the most admirable way. This they really do out of all proportion to their numbers, and out of all proportion to their considerable value as a reserve for the Navy. We are told that the world is ruled by sentiment. That is a very true saying, and so far as naval sentiment enters into our national life, I suggest the coastguard are a very important factor in linking up the Navy with the people of this country. The matter is really one which covers more ground than appears merely on the face of it. I need not refer to the enormous value of the services of the marines, both past and present. Therefore, we ought to have a real assurance, telling us exactly what the policy is, and the ground for it, or at least an assurance that this continual reduction will not continue.
I want to bring the House back to the circular which I received some time ago. It will be within the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the Admiralty, that the circular which was issued by his predecessor on 30th January, 1906, suspended for 12 months the punishment of boys in the Navy by birching and caning. I believe that order was further suspended, and has been suspended for three years. Before this Government goes out of office, I would like the hon. Gentleman, if he can, to give us the assurance that that order will be made permanent.
I do not see how that arises upon the Vote for the pay of the boys. How does the hon. Member connect it with the pay of the men and boys?
With all respect, cannot any matter affecting the life and discipline, the conditions and duties of the Navy, be discussed under this Vote?
It seems to me to be a matter of policy. The hon. Gentleman began his remarks by a reference to a circular issued by the Board of Admiralty. He either supports that circular or he criticises it. I suppose it is the action of the Board of Admiralty that he now wishes to support or criticise. Therefore the hon. Member should raise his point on the Vote for the Board of Admiralty. It does not turn on this Vote.
A point I should very much like to have explained while the Coastguard Estimates are before us is this: The Inter-Departmental Committee which met in 1907—I speak from recollection of reading the Report—recommended that the men of the coastguard who should not be able, for some reason or another, to transfer to the Customs, should not lose any of the allowances made by having to give up the service through no fault of their own, and owing to Admiralty policy. There is here a decrease of £2,375 under the head of "Coastguard Contingencies." I think that might be elucidated by those in charge of these Estimates. We were quite under the impression at the time that on losing their position, through no fault of their own, that the time would be allowed, and that they would be entitled to higher rates of pay, as in the ordinary course. How is it that under the circumstances, that these men have not been remunerated in the way promised in the recommendations of the Inter-Departmental Committee?
Then I should like to ask whether these decreases, which I understand have not yet been stopped—their pay in future will come under the head of Customs or Excise—I should like to ask on what scale it will be? There has been, undoubtedly, amongst the service a considerable amount of discontent in the men not being properly treated in the small margin making up the difference in their pay. Take a man in the coastguard service who has only got perhaps a few months to serve in order to qualify for the higher rank, and therefore for the higher pay, and therefore for the higher rate of pension.
In the coastguard scheme we have now apparently the closing down of stations and the transfer of the men, which means the curtailing of those few months which are necessary to allow them to qualify for the higher rates of pay and pension. Is it the policy of the Admiralty not to treat these men fairly when they have to leave the service through no fault of their own, but simply owing to the policy which has been carried out by the Department? In the scheme of cutting down the coastguard stations in order to secure a decrease of the Vote, is due regard being paid to the nature of the coast which is to be protected? I live on perhaps the most dangerous part of the coast of the north of Ireland, and I have an intimate knowledge of the magnificent work performed by the coastguard under the most difficult circumstances. The wrecks on that part of the coast are most frequent, and the assistance which has been given by the men of the coastguard has been most extraordinary. But the scheme of cutting down the stations appears to have regard not so much to the dangerous nature of the coast as to secure a linking of the different stations, while the most dangerous parts of the coast remain unprotected. This is done simply for the sake of obtaining an easy and simple linking of the stations round the coast, but the linking in the present instance is much too wide. It is all very well to take 100 miles of the coast and then say that inside that 100 miles a certain number of stations should be placed. But in the dangerous part of the coast of the north of Ireland it does not do to have a cut-and-dried scheme of that nature. We must have a number of localities where there should be more stations than are required in other parts of the coast line which are not nearly so dangerous. If the scheme were explained to us it would be a satisfaction to a great many of those stations which at the present moment are unsettled and in an un-restful condition in regard to what is going to happen. I need hardly say that this is a matter which affects the whole of the locality where the people have been accustomed to rely on the assistance of the coastguard in the past. I should also like a little information in regard to the Royal Marines. Last year I urged that there should be no further reduction in the Royal Marines, and I was assured that there was no general policy of reduction in regard to that force. As far as I can ascertain since 1904 the Royal Marines have been reduced by something like 3,000 men. As far as I can make out from calculation the Royal Marines cost the country only about £25 per man per year. The saving here is put down at about 740 men, costing £18,000 odd, which represents, in fact, £25 per man. If this House is prepared to sacrifice the best class of men we have in the Navy for certain duties—for the manning of stations in foreign countries, for doing duty on board ship and for doing gunnery work practically as well as the sailors—then it seems to me false economy where the saving is only £25 per man. I cannot understand the folly of year by year cutting down this magnificent force without at all events giving this House an opportunity of discussing the whole question from the broad point of view of principle. Each year we are reducing this force piecemeal. This year the number is 700 odd; next year the right hon. Gentleman will come down to the House and ask for a further 700, and so the whole service will be frittered away without any responsible Minister having yet made a statement with regard to what is the policy of the Admiralty in reference to the Royal Marines. I think this House is entitled to such a statement of policy, so that the country may know whether or not the Government have made up their minds to destroy this magnificent service. If some representative of the Government will make that statement, then we shall know where we are. But, to go on year by year frittering away this fine force without any definite statement to the House as to the broad principle on which this action is being taken appears to me to be unfair and ungenerous to the service, at the same time that it is false economy so far as the Navy itself is concerned. Under the circumstances, I think it was very fortunate indeed that the hon. Member was unable to find a Seconder for the reduction of the Vote, especially at this particular time. I am sure everyone who has listened to these debates from the first day they were begun has been so impressed with the gravity of the situation that they do not desire to raise any questions of a mere trifling nature; but rather to study in the calmest and most careful manner the whole of this important question. Therefore, I know that there are great numbers who are very much distressed to think that at this time a Member of the House could be found to move the reduction of the Vote by £2,000,000, and I think by something like 20,000 men. I hope the points which I have brought forward will receive the attention of the Secretary to the Admiralty.
I will endeavour to deal first with the question of the coastguard, which has been raised in several quarters of the House. I think I have already said in the course of the debate on the Estimates that so far as the coastguard are concerned they were transferred from the Customs to the Admiralty in 1856 for the reasons set forth by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnstaple—for the defence of the coasts of the realm, for the more ready manning of His Majesty's Navy in case of war or emergencies, and for the protection of the Revenue. Probably about 1856 there was a fair amount of smuggling, particularly, I should say, nearer the Continent. The coastguard force was distributed at the time of the transfer with reference particularly to the revenue dues. Now, in the ordinary work of patrolling the coast for the protection of the revenue, the coastguard undoubtedly have from the beginning, and increasingly as time has gone on, rendered admirable service in the matter of watching our coast-line for wrecks; and when life-boat appliances and life-saving apparatus were multiplied along the coast the coastguard have always been found ready to lend a hand in life-saving work. I associate myself entirely, as any man must do, with the cordial references which have been made to the coastguard service on both sides of the House; but I really must ask the House to remember that this duty of lending a hand in the saving of life and in looking after life-saving apparatus and lifeboats has been discharged by the coastguard when acting as volunteers. That is admitted. They have rendered those services just as everybody else would.
That is not so in regard to the telephonic communications along the coast, surely?
The telephones are, I believe, under the Board of Trade, and whatever functions the coastguard perform in regard to telephones are performed, not under the Admiralty, in regard to which Department they have certain duties.
The telephones are placed round the coast, and the coastguards carry out the duty, and they do not say that it is in any sense done by the Board of Trade.
Probably the Board of Trade made an arrangement with the Admiralty, but I could not be expected to state now offhand whether anything of that nature was arranged. I presume that the coastguard would in the ordinary course undertake certain duties as men serving the Admiralty. I think there is a misconception as to what the coastguard really are. They are not reservists; they are all men on the active service list. They could be withdrawn from the stations to-morrow and mobilised in case of necessity. They could be mobilised to-morrow if occasion arose, and they could be called back to their work of active service in the Royal Navy. In view of the changed situation since 1856, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barnstaple said, an Inter-Departmental Conference went into the whole matter as recently as 1907, and a number of recommendations were put forward. No final decision has been arrived at in respect of the carrying into operation or otherwise of these recommendations. It is true that the Admiralty has closed a number of stations and detachments not required for the protection of the Revenue and at which neither life-saving apparatus was supplied nor lifeboats stationed. The number of stations closed, as stated in the First Lord of the Admiralty's Memorandum, was 27, and the number of detachments was 22, making a total complement of 254. In his Memorandum the First Lord of the Admiralty says that he anticipated that the total at the end of the present month would be 25 stations and 10 detachments, making a total complement of 198. The total strength of the coastguard on 1st April, 1908, was 3,680. On 31st March, 1909, it is estimated that it will be 3,434. We have definitely undertaken not to close for the present any stations at which there is life-saving apparatus. This is a pledge which was definitely given.
The actual question put was whether in those parts of the coast which require to be watched for life-saving purposes the coastguard would not be withdrawn, and the answer was in the affirmative. I urge that my hon. Friend should at any rate confirm what was; said by his predecessor a year ago.
I cannot do that. All I can do is to state the Admiralty policy at this moment, and which has been again and again referred to in this House, and which is that we will undertake not to close any stations at which there are life-saving appliances. That is the pledge which has been constantly given. You may give a wider interpretation, as the hon. Member for Scarborough has done, but I cannot accept that interpretation. I quite agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Barnstaple that wherever there has been a station at which life-saving apparatus has been used it should not be disturbed. No person with any human instinct could take any other course. We have those men on the active service list. As far as we are concerned at the Admiralty they are there now entirely for the protection of the revenue. We have gone the length of saying although they are not required except for the protection of revenue, we will not withdraw them where there are life-saving appliances.
I cannot go into the intentions of the Board of Trade or as to whether the coast ought to be surrounded by proper means of life-saving. All I can state is the Admiralty position. In reply to statements by hon. Gentlemen opposite we have given an undertaking that no organic change in the position of this great force, with the tribute to which I have associated myself, will be undertaken, or, indeed, can be undertaken, without legislation which therefore would compel the Admiralty to bring the matter before the House in the form of a Bill. So far from reducing the actual pay of the coastguard, at present we are considering where the stations have been reduced in those cases where there are no life-saving apparatus, and where there is guard or patrol work, whether we could not give some consideration to the extra duties in the matter of patrolling which has been thrown on the reduced number of men in those cases.
I am afraid I cannot do more than state the definite pledge that we will not reduce or close any station where at the present time there is a lifeboat or life-saving apparatus. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London asked a number of questions as to the increase of £198,300. That increase is in regard to commissioned officers, due principally to higher numbers and average rates of pay and allowances, including the increase of two shillings to commanders. I am sure all will admit that the commander has very well earned this small increase which we propose. It is due also to a number of items such as higher average rates and allowances to warrant officers and to petty officers and seamen, and a small total increase in the case of the boys' service. Then there is £11,000 increase in the total amount of good service pay. Without going into the details, I can stand here and thoroughly endorse the increases, and justify them in every case.
With regard to the Royal Marines, about which solicitude has been shown, the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down asked whether it was proposed to destroy this magnificent force. I should say certainly not. I have the greatest regard for the marines. I know them very well indeed, and long before I came to my present office. I know their fine history, in the Crimea, in the Mutiny, at Modder River, and many a landing expedition. I know how well they are entitled to their proud motto, "Per mare, per terram." I can join in eulogy upon their artillery and infantry At the same time, notwithstanding all that, notwithstanding the tribute which I am very glad to pay to this fine force, it. cannot be denied changes are going on, particularly in regard to ships, which may necessitate certain changes in the particular character and function of those who go aboard them. To-day a ship requires larger proportionate personnel in the engine-room than upon the deck. That alone will steadily and slowly effect, changes in the personnel which we could not resist if you want the personnel to-meet your needs. I could not say for a. moment that we have anything in our mind to destroy this fine force. Whether or not the change in the nature of the ships themselves may ultimately affect some change in the constitution of this force I cannot say. At any rate, we shall always desire to treat this force with the greatest consideration. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London asked a question as to why we are now going to pay in the contingencies for the Royal Marine Divisions £1,880 for water as against £2,355. The payment is on the estimated requirements of the year.
With reference to what has fallen from the hon. Gentleman in reference to the Royal Marines, I must say, with the greatest respect to the hon. Member, his observations on that point seemed to me in the highest degree unsatisfactory. He was asked, and the Government were asked, more than once, both from the Front Bench and other parts, as to what was the meaning of the successive reduction in the numbers of the marines during the last three years. They were asked distinctly, and in the plainest possible terms, whether that indicated a definite change of policy or any definite determination on the part of the Government either to reduce, to very much limit, or to abolish the marines altogether. To that question the hon. Gentleman has given no reply whatever. Well, I do think the House of Commons is entitled to a reply to a question put in that way and on a subject of that importance. Many of us felt that a policy which is designed to abolish the marines altogether is utterly mistaken, utterly misconceived from the point of view of the highest interests of the country. I venture respectfully to submit we are entitled to know definitely what is the determination of the Government. The hon. Gentleman talks vaguely and generally about the changes which modern developments may introduce into the personnel of the Navy. I do not understand that observation, because we have been told already from the Government Bench that the latest developments in the "Dreadnought" type require smaller passengers owing to the uniformity of armament and to other causes. Then with the older type under those circumstances there does not seem to be any reason for reducing the marines who, after all, are soldiers carried on board ship, and have nothing to do with the management of the ship in itself. Of course, we know there is a certain school of thought which desires to abolish the marines and convert the whole of the personnel into blue-jackets. We want to know is that the policy of the Government?
I said, in reply to the hon. Gentleman who put this question whether we desire to destroy the Marines, I said at once "Certainly not."
Even that is not quite an answer. What is the purpose of this reduction if you do not intend to destroy the marines. Why do you reduce this body, a body which is admittedly a splendid body, discharging its functions admirably and cheaply? Why do you reduce unless you mean to destroy it? We want to know the explanation of the reduction, why you reduce them, and whether it is in pursuance of some clear policy, or whether it is merely owing to the difficulty of obtaining recruits. I think the House is entitled to be told.
There is no intention on the part of the Admiralty or the "Government to injure or destroy this force. We have not the smallest intention of doing anything of the kind, but the reduction of the marines is simply something which is going on in view of the variation in the personnel of the fleet. As a matter of fact, if you take one of the new type—the "Invincible"—there will be a much larger number of stokers in proportion to seamen than on vessels of the older type. As a matter of fact, upon every battleship or cruiser on which the marine is borne the proportion is 25 per cent, of marines to the number of seamen aboard, and as the number of seamen are gradually reduced in comparison to the total personnel, therefore, the marines gradually reduce. There are a certain number of vessels, destroyers and submarines which have been multiplied, and which do not carry marines at all. Therefore, that being so, the number of marines are being gradually reduced, not from any change of policy, not from any wish to injure that splendid force, but simply and solely because we do not require the number to form the complement of the ship, which is, as I informed the House, 25 per cent, of the seamen.
The number of marines according to the Estimate for the fleet has consideraby increased, whereas it is the number on shore that has diminished.
Marines are not kept on shore as long as they used to be. They are kept more afloat. There is no ulterior motive. We do not desire to injure the marines. It is going on in the same way as the increase in the stokers. Therefore, that being so, the seamen are naturally comparatively decreased, and with the comparative decrease of the seamen also comes a comparative decrease in the marines. I assure hon. Gentlemen there is no ulterior purpose.
As to the coastguards, are we to understand that there is a change of policy at the Admiralty, that they will work the life-saving apparatus, and undertake their responsible position in regard to life-saving generally, because the coastguard service has rendered very effective aid round the coast for several years? The coastguards have also performed very valuable services in regard to the telephones. The telephone service was established at the request of shipowners generally, and it has been of great advantage, especially on the East Coast. Before the telephone service was established ships used to get ashore, and they were many miles from any telegraph office. Sometimes very serious injury and loss of life resulted, because there could be no communication to any seaport by which service could be rendered.
This telephone service is a very valuable thing to the mercantile marine and to our lifeboat service. It was largely at the request of the Lifeboat Institution that the Government of the day were induced to establish the service. If we are to continue to reduce the number of men in the coastguard service and to close stations it is evident that the telephonic communication will be materially disturbed, if not practically broken up. So far as the East Coast is concerned, this would be a very serious matter. The coastguards now, as a matter of duty, have to report to the nearest seaport, and in some cases to the seaport from which a ship comes, what is happening to that ship. As soon as a vessel gets ashore it is the duty of the coastguardsmen to inform persons round the coast, so that service may be rendered, if possible. Is it the intention of the Government to abandon that service? If so, they will do a serious injustice to the mercantile marine, to the men in our ships, and to our fishermen, to whom the telephone service has been almost invaluable. The coastguards have been very good men; they have done their duty faithfully, and I am at a loss to understand why they are to be reduced. I am not convinced by the statement of the Secretary to the Admiralty that these men are unnecessary. They are as necessary now as ever they were.
For revenue purposes?
I am not speaking about revenue. £.s.d. is not the only thing we have to consider. We have to think of the lives of men, especially of those who go down to the sea, and in regard to these the coastguards render very valuable service. I cannot understand why, for the sake of saving a few hundred pounds, the Government should attempt to disturb these men, to discontinue useful service, and probably to inflict serious injury on the mercantile marine. Is it the intention of the Government to discontinue the working of the telephone service round the coast, as a matter of duty on the part of the coastguards? I understood the Secretary to the Admiralty to say that the working of the life-saving apparatus is, and that the telephonic service is not, part of their duty. I have tried to get a clear answer on the point, but I cannot get from the Board of Trade any satisfactory information. Are we or are we not to understand that it is the intention of the Board of Trade, in consequence of the failure of the Admiralty to do their duty in maintaining these coastguards, to abandon the telephonic service where the men are removed and the stations closed? If so, the mercantile marine ought to know that that change is being made. It seems to me that, for the sake of saving a few hundred pounds, to risk lives and valuable property is a policy unworthy of the Government.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolution reported: "That a sum, not exceeding £890,200, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the expense of half-pay and retired pay to officers of the Navy and Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1910."
Resolution read a second time.
I rise to move a reduction of £1,000. There are 57 admirals on half-pay, receiving £35,000, or an average of £614 a year, and 101 retired pay admirals, costing £81,720, or an average of £809. I submit there is no reason why these huge sums should be paid for retired pay. You can get the cleverest brains in England in the prime of life for the money, and we are only following an expensive tradition in making these payments. I would ask the Government to take this matter in hand. The amount of retired and half-pay and allowances will increase as the years go on. With every increase in the number of men there will be an increase in the non-effective portion of the service. We talk about saving the nation from foreign foes, and ask whether we can afford to do this, that, or the other, but here we are squandering money which might be usefully spent on some necessary purpose. Thirty-five thousand men get in pensions and gratuities £1,120,000, or an average of £32 per man. I can see no reason why retired admirals should get 25 times as much. What we ought to do is to allow these retired officers enough to live on. We pay them large salaries whilst they are working, and why we should pay these large sums when they have ceased to work I do not know. The number of retired pay officers is about 2,460—I have not the exact figures—and they get about £817,000, an average of about £340. That seems to be too much to pay just for the fun of the thing. We are hard up, and are reducing the coastguards in order to save money, and yet we are squandering all this money, and the amount will greatly increase because there is an increased number of men on the strength. Under our present extravagant system every increase of strength means an increase in the non-effective vote. I ask all those who do not merely cry for a strong Navy because it is fashionable to do so, or because they are interested in it, having relatives to draw these salaries and pensions, but who really think they are anxious—I put it that way because I do not think anybody is really anxious—I ask them to vote for a reduction in these extravagant allowances in order that all the money that the nation can afford to spend on these services may be spent upon something useful for our defence.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Resolution agreed to.
The House also agreed with the Committee in the following Resolutions:—
"£1,387,800, Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances."
"£369,800, Civil Pensions and Gratuities."
Army Annual Bill
Brought in, and read a first time. To be read a second time to-morrow (24th March).
SUPPLY (15th MARCH)
Civil Service Supplementary Estimates, 1908–9
REPORT.
Resolution reported: "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £47,000, be granted to defray the charge that will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1909, for sundry Colonial services, including certain grants in aid."
Resolution read a second time. Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I desire to speak with reference to Somaliland, which in the last few years has passed through many vicissitudes. It has had no less than four wars in the last 14 years, and during the 25 years it has been part of the British Empire it has been administered by no less than three offices. During the first stage of its existence as a British Protectorate it was administered by the India Office; it then passed under the control of the Foreign Office; it is now under the Colonial Office. While the country was under the India Office it enjoyed a great measure of prosperity and peace. I believe the revenue was greater than the expenditure, so that the country was paying its way. Then, in an evil moment, it was handed over to the Government in England, and its troubles at once began. As I have said, it has had four wars, and there is another going on at the present time. Both parties are perhaps equally to blame, but the fact remains that we have developed in that country nothing whatsoever, the revenue is diminishing, and the expenditure is increasing. From my knowledge of the country I can see no reason whatsoever for such a deplorable state of affairs. Somaliland is not a great desert; it is not a waste by any means. It is a country which enjoys an extremely good climate, and I am told that there used to be considerable area of arable land under cultivation. A very few years ago —I have no knowledge of what exists at the present time—great flocks of sheep and great herds of cattle, besides countless millions of game, were reared on the mountains and plains of these regions. The only use we have made of these cattle and all this live stock which find a living there is to supply the Aden garrison with meat. I might mention that we have taken very little out of the country. Berbera possesses a very fine harbour, and I have heard it argued that it would have been far better if the Uganda railway had started at Berbera instead of Mombasa. Nor, again, must it be imagined that Somaliland is a savage country. They are more akin to a tribe on the North-West frontier of India than to any other tribe. The Somali is really an Arab, and he is about the most cosmopolitan person to be found on the face of the earth. He has many, good characteristics. He is loyal, contented, and brave, and we have only to look at the service he has rendered to see that what I have stated is common truth. The curse of the country has been the internecine feuds and brawls which have been going on from time immemorial. These feuds were not of a serious nature, and the Somali was quite content if two or three were killed. In fact, these brawls were looked upon by the elders of the tribes as very useful. During the first part of our occupation these feuds and raids were gradually dying out. They counted upon the English as protectors. I wish to say a word about the Mullah. There have been a good many Mullahs in Somaliland. As a rule, they were quiet and respectable old gentlemen. They were the only people around whose places any arable land existed. Through their position, being the only literary people in the country, they exerted an enormous influence over the tribes, and they were entirely exempt from the rows and strife continually going on. Why should it be that all the fanaticism of those Mullahs should suddenly have turned against this country, to which only a few years ago they were so well disposed 1 I venture to say that the great mistake we made was in handing over 15,000 square miles to their hereditary enemy—Abyssinia. That was a very grave mistake, because it led to the belief that they were existing under a Protectorate which no longer protected them. On the subject of allowing them arms to defend themselves against the Abyssinians I have not a word to say. I have always thought that was a policy which was absolutely unavoidable. I only rose to make these few remarks in the hope that we shall elicit from the Government what the policy of this country, if policy there be, really is towards Somaliland, which I believe to be of importance to this Empire, whether it is regarded from the commercial, the strategical, or the moral standpoint.
I only rise because it would be discourteous to the hon. Gentleman who has special knowledge of the subject not to say a word in reply. "We have listened with great interest to the account he gave of Somaliland from first hand knowledge, but I regret that I cannot add anything to what I said a day or two ago on the subject, as no fresh information has reached us, owing to the difficulty of communication with that country. As soon as there is fresh in- formation to give, I shall be glad to make it known to the House and to the hon. Gentleman.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolution reported, "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £8,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment in the year ending 31st March, 1909, for the salaries and expenses of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Royal Botanical Gardens, Kew."
Resolution read a second time.
Motion made and question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in said Resolution."
I had intended to move a reduction of this Vote, but I understand that it is the intention of the Government at an early date to give an opportunity for the matter being discussed on the salary of the President of the Board of Agriculture. If that is so, I do not propose to move the Amendment standing in my name.
That is so, and certainly it will be much more convenient that the questions which my hon. Friend wishes to raise should be discussed on the whole Vote rather than on a Supplementary Estimate, which really does not cover some of the questions. It is our intention to take the Vote for the Board of Agriculture as early as we can, consistently with the convenience of the House.
Will that be before Easter? Can the hon. Member give the date?
The discussion will take place on the Vote for the next financial year. We will take it as soon as we possibly can.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution reported: "That a supplementary sum not exceeding £17,380 be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment in the year, ending 31st March, 1909, for the expenses of prisons in England, Wales and the Colonies."
Resolution read a second time.
Motion made, and question proposed: "That this House doth agree with the Committee in said Resolution."
I rise to ask a few questions on this Vote, in the hope that someone on the Government Bench will be able to answer them. I notice that there is an increased sum of £3,500 asked for in this Estimate in respect of the escort and conveyance of prisoners. I shall be glad to know why there has been that large increase. There has been no explanation given in the Estimate. Seeing that the original sum was only £58,000, the increase represents something like 6 per cent. I am aware that at a good many of the courts of this country—I am well acquainted with the conditions at Clerken-well—the accommodation for prisoners awaiting trial is very insufficient, and even bad, from the sanitary point of view. I am also aware that prisoners have sometimes to be kept waiting on the pavement cutside and subjected to the curiosity of the public. I should like very much if the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Vote would give some information on the subject. Under the item of victualling, I see there is an increase of £9,950, which is stated to be due to the increase in the prison population and to the rise in the price of cocoa. I wish to ask in respect of the price of cocoa how much more of cocoa in weight and money value has been consumed in our prisons. I shall not take this opportunity of offering any criticism as to whether cocoa is a suitable diet in prison, but I wish to ask this categorical question, Has any of the cocoa been grown under conditions of slavery?
was understood to indicate that it had not.
The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, and I shall be glad if he will give the names of the firms who supply the cocoa, and if he will say that the cocoa does not come from those countries which have been shown to be countries where it is grown under conditions of slavery. The last item on which I wish information comes under the head of light, water, cleaning, etc. There we have a considerable increase, namely, £3,400. Having some knowledge of the inside of prisons in this country, and of their condition as to cleanliness, I cannot quite see why there should be this large increase. I do not belive that the increase in the prison population would necessitate such an increase, seeing that cells are kept clean by the prisoners. I cannot see why any great expense should be added owing to the fact that the number of prisoners has increased. I regret that I am obliged to trouble the right hon. Gentleman with these questions, but I must do so in view of the fact that the representatives of the Home Office are absent when these matters are under discussion.
I think that I shall be able to supply the hon. Gentleman with all the information which he asks for. The increase to which he refers is mainly owing to the increase in the number of transfers. The sum of £500 has been caused by conveying prisoners backwards and forwards to the court of appeal. The hon. Gentleman has asked me if all the cocoa was raised by slave labour. No part of it was raised by slave labour. He also asked me why the cocoa cost £3,000 more than last year. There was a failure in the crop of 1907, which advanced the price of cocoa by 3½d. a pound, and that is entirely responsible for the increase of the £3,000. The other matter is owing to the improving: of the cells and corridors of the prisons, and is part of a plan extending over a number of years. It has cost a good deal of money this year.
The Admiralty does not grow the cocoa.
I agree, but, at any rate, they do not purchase it from slave labour colonies, and therefore it is quite free from the taint of slave labour.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us; where the cocoa comes from?
It comes from the West Indies, with the exception of a small quantity which comes from Ecuador.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolution reported, "That £11,890 be granted to defray the grant in aid of the purchase of a picture in the National Gallery."
Resolution read a second time and agreed to.
Resolution reported, "That £1,380 4s. 10d. be granted to His Majesty to make good the excess in grants of service in certain Departments."
Resolution read a second time.
Question proposed, "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
There are no particulars as to what this sum refers to. On the face of it, it looks as if there had been some blundering on the part of those who prepared the Estimates.
The explanation is very simple. In 1908 the Treasury sanctioned an expenditure of £2,500 for the revision of the rules of the Supreme Court. At the same time we were given to understand that there would be a saving of £3,000 on various items which would cover the cost of the revision, and that there would be no necessity to come to this House for an excess Vote. In point of fact, the saving failed by an amount of something over £2,000.
Another entire miscalculation such as the Government has made in the case of the Navy.
Question put and agreed to.
There being no further business on the Paper, I now leave the chair until a quarter past eight o'clock.
Sitting suspended from twenty minutes before eight o'clock until a quarter-past eight o'clock.
Private Business
The House resumed at a Quarter past Eight of the clock.
Glamorgan Water Board Bill
Order for second reading read.
Motion made and Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a second time."
There is one question as to which I want information in reference to the Bill now before the House. Last year we had a discussion in reference to the failure in the case of big undertakings of this description to supply proper housing accommodation for the men engaged on such works, and I want to be satisfied that, in taking over the powers of the Pontypridd Act which was passed last Session, the provisions contained in that Act will be enforced in relation to the Bill now before the House. I notice that there is no reference whatever to the particular clauses dealing with this subject, and I should at least like some information upon this matter before I could con- sent to allow it to proceed any further. But if there is anyone present now who can give me some information and some definite statement on the subject that really is all the information that I require.
By the indulgence of the House I can reply to the hon. Member for Stoke. The last Act under which they were empowered to carry out public works, and which provided that there should be housing accommodation for those engaged in carrying them out, seems to have met with the approval of the hon. Member. I have no reason to think that in this extended work they will not do the same thing precisely as they did in the original work; and I believe that the promoters of this Bill are quite willing that they should be, so to speak, bound by the provisions of the previous Bill.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give me a definite undertaking that the present company will be bound by the stipulations of the Act that passed this House last year?
There is no reason to believe that the company wish to get rid in this particular Bill and in the works which it sanctions of the obligations that they properly undertook in the previous Bill.
It will be within the recollection of this House that about a fortnight ago in a recent discussion sympathy was expressed with a certain intention in connection with the Water Bill then before the House. That intention was practically speaking to try to secure that no Bill should pass this House dealing with the water question, either for water companies or municipalities, unless it contained clauses safeguarding the interests of the agricultural community in the district from which the water supply was likely to be drawn. The motive which was put forward then was apparently well understood, and the principle approved of by, I think, everyone who spoke, and by the President of the Local Government Board. I need not trouble the House to refer to the events which have brought us to this position. It is sufficient for me to remind the House that a few years ago a very celebrated Bill was produced dealing with the water supply, and on that occasion apprehensions were expressed that the taking away of the water from the gathering district which the Bill dealt with would be very likely prejudicial to residents in that district; and the forms of the House were not at that time sufficiently extended to enable people who thought them selves aggrieved to state their case, and, perhaps, to get a consideration of it either in the House or before the Committee who examined the Bill. The then Chairman of Committees brought in a clause, and that clause was intended to give to every person who made a claim that he was likely to be injured, a locus standi before the Parliamentary Committee to argue out his position. I pass from that, and without going into the intermediate details and points that have arisen, or touching the recent Royal Commission on Sewage, dealing indirectly, as it did, with the water question, to the recent position taken in the House of Lords by the Chairman, which, again, tended to protect the district from which the water was taken. I mention these things simply in a hasty fashion to show that the position is well understood and practically acknowledged.
In spite of all this, and in spite of everything that is admitted, we are to-day face to face with this, that whereas the clauses to which I have referred gave a locus standi to those who thought they were injured, nevertheless it is incumbent upon them to go before the Parliamentary Committee, often at very great expense, to argue or have argued their views as to how the Bill is likely to affect them, and then, having been put to enormous expense, they only succeed very often in an extremely shadowy way in getting what they want. What I want, if we can, is to come to some arrangement by means of which there would be finality to all this. We want, if we can, to secure a model clause which will prevent these small people continually having to come and repeat the same tale before the Parliamentary Committee, and after having spent their money and urged their case, to leave it so that someone in a similar position has to do the same thing and to spend the same amount of trouble and money the year after and in successive years. It is highly desirable to find, if it can be found, some way of safeguarding these people. It was here that the Central Chamber of Agriculture of which my Friend the Member for Rye is chairman came on the scene, and they considered it and were responsible for the Instruction which he placed on the Paper, and which I think was accepted by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board. I turn from the question of the interested parties to the other side, and I come to the Water authorities, the water undertakers. What is their position? I submit that the position of the water companies or of the water undertakers should be to throw their cards upon the table, because there is nothing which they need wish to conceal. If it is urged that the person who says his land does not suffer through the water being taken away, then the Instruction that later on I shall have to allude to could not hurt the water promoters. If, on the other hand, the individual who says he will be injured, and it subsequently transpires that he is injured, then surely all right-minded people will agree if the water is taken away from the locality, the person who has got the advantage ought to be made to recompense the loser. I consider that the rural case which I have just skimmed over is irresistible, and I cannot help saying, as regards the water undertakers, it is also unanswerable. What is it we require? We simply want a form of words to give real effect to the position we are contemplating. The Local Government Board, through its President, on a recent occasion acknowledged and admitted this principle, and he accepted from the Member for Rye the words printed on the Paper.
I turn to those words because it is in connection with them that I wish to say a word or two. I cannot help thinking that the words proposed by the hon. Member for Rye do not really give effect to that which he intends and that which we all desire. Those words are as follows:—
"That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to inquire whether the promoters have made adequate provision by the Bill for the supply of water at reasonable rates to the agricultural community within the area of supply."
Mark the words "within the area of supply." Within what area of supply? Is it within the area of supply of Glamorgan? I take three large cities, namely, Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool. Take the area from which Birmingham draws its supply. It is not Birmingham we want to discuss, but we want to consider what would happen to the people of Rhadyr, where the water is taken. Then there are the words, "agricultural community." Everyone knows that if this reference goes to a Committee there is not a single precedent for imposing upon one of these great water undertakings the condition that they should be called upon to supply one by one perhaps many thousands of individuals. The bulk supply, we all understand, whether to a local company or an authority. Therefore, I submit that, practically speaking, the reference to a Committee is not practical. Now I go a step further. The Instruction of the hon. Member for Rye proceeds:— an agreement with the local authority for a supply to them of water in bulk." In default of such an agreement, then, and then only, do we say that the Local Government Board shall hold a local inquiry. All these provisions, as far as I can judge, would safeguard the individual who thought he was a sufferer or who might be a sufferer. It was because I was so anxious to try once and for all to endeavour to start something that might bring to a finish this ever-recurring dispute that I put down this Instruction. I am happy to be able to say that since I have done that I have been approached by the promoters of these respective Bills. Taking the Glamorgan Bill, I am happy to say that the promoters and their agents have accepted my proposal, and the same applies to the Oldham Corporation Bill, and the other Bill on the Paper.
Of course, it is no good going over the same ground again, because they are all willing to accept the Instruction which I have put down on the Paper to the word "diminution." Further than that, they are willing to make another condition. What is the good of these instructions if they go before a Committee where there is no one to urge them and no witnesses to support them? That is a most important factor, and as the Central Chamber of Agriculture has supported this through the hon. Member for Rye, I have put to the promoters this question: Would they object to this provision, that if any person presents a petition endeavouring to secure a clause on the lines indicated in my notice the promoters will not object to the Standing Orders being dispensed with, and if they are the promoters will not object to the locus standi of the petitioners? The petitioners, in plain English, have recognised the justice of the idea put forward by the Central Chamber of Agriculture, and they are willing to accept my Instruction or that of the hon. Member for Rye down to the word "diminution." They bind themselves not to object to the position taken up by the Central Chamber of Agriculture if it is able to substantiate its position and get a locus standi. It is under these circumstances that I shall go no further in this matter if I get a word from the President of the Local Government Board to say that he approves of this settlement, which is quite upon the lines of everything the right hon. Gentleman said on a previous occasion.
Bill read a second time, and Committed.
Oldham Corporation Bill
Order for second reading read.
Motion made and question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a second time."
I do not wish to repeat what I have said. I simply say, in short, that the promoters have made the same understanding that they made in respect to the other Bill.
On behalf of the Oldham Corporation I do not object.
I do not know what this method of private legislation is. But I understand that there is someone who usually gives us an explanation of what the Bill is. Of the hon. Members whose names are on the Bills neither are in attendance, and I do not think it is treating the House fairly at all. I should certainly, before I vote for a measure of this description, like to know something of what the Bill proposes to do.
You can read it.
I can please myself whether I read it or not. When the hon. Member for Kidderminster is asked his advice it will be time to give it. I am only suggesting that an explanation of this kind of Bill should be given to the House. I should like to know whether it is proposed to commence any very large works, or whether a similar clause to that which was in the Pontypridd Bill of last year (Section 56) could not be incorporated; whether there would be any objection on the part of the promoters to a similar clause with reference to any works that may be undertaken under the Act? I think it is only fair that we ought to know what it is proposed to do.
We seem to have arrived at a somewhat curious position. We have been informed by the hon. Member for Kidderminster that he has made some arrangement with the promoters. What arrangement? In his able speech he spent a great deal of time in referring to the two Instructions. He has not in the least explained how they can be carried out. The only Instruction appears to be an Instruction to the Committee to hold a roving inquiry as to what is to be done at the end of ten years; an inquiry into the future which he says very little about. Again, he says matters have been amicably arranged, but we are left in the dark as to what has been amicably arranged, and we are still in doubt as to who is entitled to arrange anything, whether amicably or otherwise.
What says the Instruction? "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to inquire whether the effect of the exercise of the powers sought by the Bill will, or may be, to produce, within a period of ten years from the date of completion of the works described in, and proposed to be authorised by, the Bill, the failure or material diminution of any source of water supply of which, at the passing into law of the Bill, any persons lawfully avail themselves, and whether the provisions of the Bill are such as to afford adequate and equitable protection or compensation to such persons in respect of such failure or diminution.
"That if, in the opinion of the Committee, such failure or diminution will, or may, within the said period, be produced, and the provisions of the Bill are insufficient to afford such protection or compensation as aforesaid, the Committee be empowered to insert a specified clause or clauses."
The whole thing is rather a tall order, and unless we get from the Government, or from the Department that it concerns, that they will take our objections into consideration, I certainly do not think we ought to pass this Bill without an honourable obligation on the part of the promoters that they will consent to such clauses, which, I understand, they do not accept at present and that some of us consider necessary.
It is a real grievance in many places that the water supply of the people is dried up by water companies going into that neighbourhood and draining the water out of the area out of which they get their water. On the part of agriculturists, such as those represented by the Central Chamber of Agriculture, it is asked that some protection should be given against this robbery of private supply, and for this reason the two Instructions were put down. Both of these Instructions, to a certain extent, meet the case, but there is one difficulty which the hon. Member for Kidderminster has, to a certain extent solved. That case is this: though the committee, under these Instructions should inquire into it, they would have no evidence from the people who might be sufferers, because they would not be in a position to appear. The promoters of this Bill have given an under- taking that they would not oppose such addition on the part of the Central Chamber of Agriculture, or some similar body, so that the case of the people who might lose their water might be presented by some public body of that sort. Sometimes this arrangement has been come between the promoters of a private Bill and Members representing their Constituents, or someone of that sort. It is quite true that this might create a certain amount of precedent, but it is better to have it. We want it laid down that there should not be robbery of water by a public company from private individuals for the benefit of somebody miles and miles away.
This Instruction has been put on the Paper, and I think my hon. Friend is quite justified in doing what he can to arrange matters amicably outside this House, and I do not think we need have any trouble in understanding the position at present. I hope the Government will not refuse this Instruction, or, if it does, that it will substitute some other that will carry out the effects of this one.
Some hon. Gentlemen have blocked these Bills for some reason, and it will be only fair to the House if the hon. Gentlemen whose names are on the back of the Bill and represent the promoters would give us some explanation with regard to it. This Oldham Bill, of which we are now discussing the second reading, covers an expenditure of over half a million of money. My hon. Friend who has just spoken wishes to be sure that the clause will be put into this Bill that was inserted in the Bill last Session. It occurs to me that in the circumstances it will be much better to adjourn the debate in order to enable hon. Gentlemen to get the information they want and then bring on the Bill on some future occasion. These private Bills very often cover work of great importance, affecting thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of people, and I think that at any rate we ought to have some adequate explanation, and that we should not be called upon to vote in the dark. Perhaps the President of the Local Government Board may be able to give us some little information as to the Departmental view of the matter. In the meantime, as it is a waste of time to continue, and as the matter can be discussed on another occasion, I move the adjournment of the debate.
seconded the motion.
May I ask my hon. Friends not to press the Motion for the adjournment of the debate, because I believe that when explanation is made, as I will now attempt to make it, as to the proposals contained in this Bill, there will be no need for the adjournment of the debate. The effect of this Bill roughly is this: It is a very important Bill, consisting of 124 clauses; it is an ordinary omnibus Bill; it has public works embodied in it which involve an expenditure of about £600,000 of public money. The execution of these works is all of vital importance to the large town of Oldham. The Bill deals with the water supply, gas works, electric lighting, tramways, roads and streets, and other improvements, to all of which the town of Oldham is exceedingly anxious to have Parliamentary sanction, so that it may proceed with them at once. Beyond that the Parliamentary Committees are at this stage of the Session anxious to get to work upon these Bills, which will occupy their time and attention, and the point raised by the hon. Member for Kidderminster will have to be raised upon a Bill, the Instruction to which has gone over and we shall have on that Bill, or the Instructions thereto, another discussion. My suggestion is that the whole of the three Bills that are down for second reading tonight should be allowed to pass that stage, and that the matter embodied in the Instruction of the hon. Member for Rye, and the lengthier point raised by the hon. Member for Kidderminster, should come up for consideration on a subsequent occasion. If that is not agreed to, I shall be compelled to vote against the Instruction for this reason. The Instruction of the hon. Member for Rye was accepted by practically all the promoters of all the water and omnibus Bills, and to-day in regard to the Oldham Bill no exception is taken, because it makes perfectly fair and reasonable terms, and the Committees on these Bills will give considerations to the points which are generally expressed in the hon. Member for Rye's Instructions. Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman is not here to-night to move his Instruction, and thereupon it falls to the ground. Upon its falling to the ground, the hon. Member for Kidderminster seeks to move an Instruction to which I am compelled to object because it is much longer in its terms, in many respects it is incomprehensible to some Members of the House, who have already expressed their view, and it brings in the Local Government Board under circumstances that are not conducive and favourable to the public interests. We naturally object to being brought in without the least consideration being shown as to whether the importation of the Local Government Board would or would not be a public benefit. Therefore, I ask the House seriously to allow the second reading of these three useful public omnibus Bills, which mean the expenditure of an enormous sum of public money, and I therefore appeal to the hon. Gentleman not to press his Instruction, which must be discussed on another occasion.
I ask leave to withdraw my Motion for the adjournment of the debate, and I may say if I had heard this explanation previously I would never have moved it.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
, who was imperfectly heard, was understood to say: I hope this discussion may be continued, especially as I understand that on this particular Bill, the Oldham Bill, the promoters are ready to accept the first part of the Instruction of the hon. Member for Kidderminster. It seems to me that this question is one which ought to be threshed out, more especially when the promoters of the Bill are quite prepared for that course, and I do not see why the Government should deprecate discussion when all the parties are willing that it should take place. I do not know the sort of soil from which Oldham draws its water. I know very well that in some parts of the country there are municipalities—
That is entirely a matter for Committee upstairs.
I hope the House will allow this Instruction to pass, as it was agreed to by the Oldham Corporation to go through, and then the Committee upstairs will know exactly what they have to do.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a second time."
Question put, and agreed to.
I think after the second reading I can now move my Instruction?
Objection is taken to the hon. Member's Instruction, and it is in my discretion whether it shall be taken now or not.
Aldershot Gas and Water Bill
Motion made and question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a second time."
Would it be in order for anybody else to move the Instruction of the hon. Member for Rye?
No. That would not be in order.
Read a second time, and Committed.
Land Values Taxation
called attention to the question of the taxation of land values, and moved: "That in the opinion of this House the taxation of land values would result in the owners of land and minerals developing these national resources more rapidly, thereby increasing the supply of land and raw material available for use, and providing opportunities for labour and the wealth-producing powers of the country, and therefore the imposition of such a tax should be provided for without delay."
He said: On last Wednesday a Motion was submitted to the House from above the Gangway on this side respecting the investment of British capital abroad. The Motion I have to make will do something which will result in the investment of British capital at home. If that be so, I suggest the Motion is of importance to the community at large. As to what may be said in the course of the debate and in respect of Amendments that are down on the Paper, I want to say at once that my colleagues and myself do not urge this Motion upon the principle of the single tax, neither do we want to impose on property, particularly landed property, any big incubus or burden that it cannot bear. I presume, from the Amendment of the hon. Member for North Paddington, that it is thought we are going to tax land values in order to remove the tax from every other form of property. Ever since I have been in public life, and there are many Members in the same position, we have always strenuously attempted to impress on the Government, either outside or inside the House, that all forms of increased increment should be taxed up to its fullest limit, but there is this difference, may I submit, between the unearned increment arising from land values and unearned incomes, that in the increment arising from land values there is absolute security in every particular, that the State itself stands for security, that it arises by no single effort or exertion of the landlord or the landowner, whereas unearned incomes, which arise from investments in companies and concerns of that character, there is at least some amount of risk.
So that therefore, viewing the question from that point of view, the suggestion contained in the proposition now before the House is with regard to this form of unearned increment, so that a tax should be immediately imposed. I confess, when I gave notice of this Motion, I simply had general knowledge on the subject, as I had the honour of being the president of the Trade Union Congress at Bristol in 1898, and mentioned taxing land values as a means of raising revenues in my presidential address. Since giving notice of the Motion, and being compelled to go somewhat deeper into the question, I have been astonished at the possibilities for good, economic and social, as contained in a proposition of this character. I want to submit a few reasons as to the justice of this tax. I hope it will be granted by the House generally that at least my colleagues and myself will never seek to impose injustice on anyone.
Anyone who has studied or read the subject of land values, I think, will agree that the increase in the value of land does not result from any personal effort, but rather that the increased value in the land is the result of social necessity and communal effort. May I submit that the amenity of even our town life, every new line of tramway laid down, every new improvement in our streets, improvement even in the architecture of the streets themselves, if a city opens a public park, all this adds to the value of the land. The landlord who owns the land seems to me to get off scot free with the exception of the income tax he has to pay. Every time the farmer improves the value of his land, at least there is a risk of his rent being increased. This did not happen in the olden days, which, in this respect, I think, really should be called "the good old days," because the landlord in those days was undoubtedly taxed. He had to give some service to the State, in the shape of arms and men, and to provide in some sense the Navy in those days. He certainly had to provide security for the man who tilled the soil. In other words, as far as I have been able to gather, there was a covenant entered into between the tiller of the soil and the land- lord, and that covenant was that one was to fight and the other to till the soil. I do not think that could be held good today.
As far as I know landlords, generally, not only do they obtain their income from the necessities of social life, but as a matter of fact they render, in my judgment, absolutely no service to the community at all. I say that it is a form of unearned increment that ought to yield something to the State itself, if not to the localities in which the land is situate. I am not going to weary the House with figures. I am going to leave the figures to a subsequent speaker, but I think it is well we should get at least same examples of how the value accrues to land. I will just quote brief examples as to how this value is created. In this House in 1903, when The Land Values Assessment of Eating Bill was moved by the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, he quoted two glaring instances in London as to how value was created in land, and what was forced out of the community because they wanted that land for public purposes. He stated:—
Those four examples—and they could be multiplied by the thousand—show clearly that the landowners of this country have been getting to themselves enormous wealth without rendering to the community any service for it. It is a commonplace of economics—and I submit this point to the hon. Member for Preston—that the only source of wealth is land. That is proved conclusively in the cases I have quoted; but our point is that the wrong person has got the wealth, that this form of wealth is the result of social effort, and that it should be used for social purposes. We have neglected the land too long in this country. We have been concerning ourselves with the expansion of Empire and the acquisition of markets for our commerce. I have not a word to say against that; but it seems to me that it is a onesided view of progress if all the time we are going to neglect the land. I suppose that most of us will agree that this country cannot always be the workshop of the world, and that we cannot always "boss" the markets of the world. Sooner or later there will be a limit in that direction. Yet all the time the people at home are being cooped up in the slums of our towns and cities, and the land starved for labour. It seems to me that when all these things fail we ought to be in such a position as to have as a reserve force of power in this country the land in a condition to be cultivated and tilled, so that it might protect the people from famine. If not the primary duty of the State, at least one of its first duties is to assure to all citizens the right to exercise their industry; but no citizen can do that to the proper extent, or with safety with regard to material conditions, unless he is guaranteed the right of access to the land. There is no right of access to the land, unless you are prepared to pay the extraordinary and exorbitant terms that are demanded by the people who own it. I want to submit the economic result of the position taken with regard to the land question. Take the matter of agriculture. It is absolutely a dying industry. [Cries of "Oh."] I was going to submit that there is no more precarious occupation that I know of than the farmer's occupation. The farmers of this country, and of Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, are always grumbling, like ourselves, and they will continue to grumble until they get some measure of justice meted out to them. I hope we will stand by them in that request. There are less people engaged on the land in this country proportionately than in any country in Europe, and I submit that that is a scandal which ought not to be tolerated.
Let me mention a few of the points that seem to me to make the farmer's occupation a precarious one. Every improvement made in the land does not bring to the man who makes it the full benefit. When a farmer improves his land, see what happens. There is an agent spying around, and he begins to talk to the farmer about the splendid improvement he has made on the land. He goes to another place, and there is a discussion between the owner and the agent as to the improvement which John Smith has made on his farm. The next thing we hear of is that the rent goes up.
That is a very serious charge, and it ought not to be made without evidence.
Subsequent speakers will give the cases in point. I have heard discussions in this House upon Land Bills in which reference has been made to the sporting rights of landlords. We have heard stories of the effect upon farmers' crops. It has been stated that they are sometimes ruined because of the imposition of such rights. Then there is the question of railway freightage. I know of no more gross cases of injustice to farmers than the rates they are charged for taking their goods to the market. Why, a man in the South of France sends his goods to Covent Garden Market and gets them there for 50 per cent, less than the farmer in Kent has to pay to send his goods to the same place. All these things make the farmer's occupation a very precarious one. But what of the agricultural labourer? I do not want to trench on the ground of the hon. Member for Northampton, but I think he will agree with me that it is not a very enviable occupation—hard toil, low wages, meagre living, insufficient house accommodation, and bad sanitary arrangements. When he wants land to become his own master he has to pay exorbitant charges to the man who owns the land, so that I submit that the effect of a tax such as the Motion outlines will be to throw more land into the market than is there at the present moment. That will give both the farmer and the agricultural labourer greater opportunities for success in life than is possible at present. Not only that, but I submit it will induce some of the men in towns with small capital to go out on to the land and invest it there, and thus relieve to some extent the congestion which exists in that direction.
Let me deal with a phase of this question I am more acquainted with than those which I have so far put to the House. I want to deal with the economic effect of the taxation of land values with regard to cities. Take sites in our great towns today. Let any employer of labour, or company if you like, select a certain site in order to build a factory there, and see what he has to pay for the land. I sub- mit that is an absolute and direct tax upon industry. Surely that cannot be justified upon any ground, but where this system affects us still more is, after all, in the housing question. In every large industrial centre in this country, and particularly in London, it has been mentioned over and over again that the present system has a bad economic effect on the housing question on account of owners holding up land. I feel constrained in this matter to quote a passage from the Minority Report of the Commission on Local Bates. That Report was signed by one who was then a Member of the Conservative Cabinet. I refer to Lord Balfour of Burleigh. They say:—
The people are crowded together worse than rabbits. They live in insanitary premises in the midst of insanitary atmosphere. They are eaten up with consumption. If the taxing of land values results in mitigating overcrowding in our large towns and cities, the effect on the white scourge of consumption must be of the greatest possible importance. Hon. Members in this House have often spoken of the evils of drink. Let us make no mistake about it—a great deal of drink is due to the overcrowded conditions of our people in our great towns and cities. Pure atmosphere is shut out from the people. A ring fence is formed around all our great towns and cities of land held up against use for building, and thus it has become too costly to build houses for our people. A statement has been made by the President of the Local Government Board in this House time after time during the whole of this Parliament as to the fearful condition of the building trade. I know that condition well, because my own trade is connected with the building trade. The building trade is one that has suffered most from unemployment. I know competent and skilled men who have gone under for lack of employment. The Salvation Army picks them up on the Embankment, sends them to a home, and puts them on their feet again, only to push someone else out to likewise stand in the gutter, and the operation of the Salvation Army is again repeated. If the building trade became a little busier, naturally more men would be employed, and great good would be achieved. The Chancellor of the Exchequer time after time is called upon to provide money for many purposes. Money has been asked for to build engines for destroying life. On these benches we have always asked for money for building up life. Calls have been made on the Chancellor of the Exchequer for money for social reforms. Many of us have been on city councils in the Provinces, and we know it is impossible to get social reforms without some fund being set aside that will bear the cost.
Where is the money coming from? This is our reply to that question. The capital value of land is about £5,000,000,000. A paltry penny in the £ upon that value would bring in £21,000,000 of revenue. On behalf of my colleagues I may say that we should like this money to be ear-marked, and be devoted to the purpose of effecting social reforms. The Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot get the necessary money from the class to which I belong. If he wants to get the money he will have to go to other sources than the pockets of working men. There are other forms of property as well as land, but the only form of property we possess is our labour, and that property has been imposed upon too long. We have got to such a state that it is almost impossible to wring a single cent, more from us. Mr. B. S. Rowntree in his "Poverty in York" lifted the veil that hangs over the struggle for existence among the lower-paid classes. According to the Financial Reform Almanack he
I rise to second the Motion. It is now, I think, some eight years ago since, sitting, as I then was, as a representative in the Manchester Council, I moved a resolution approving of the rating of land values. That resolution was carried, though there were many different shades of political opinion represented on the Council, unanimously. We had spent year after year in conferences considering this question. Through the advocacy of the Secretary to the Board of Education a Bill with that object was twice introduced into a Conservative House of Commons, and was twice carried. Why did the Municipality of Manchester take that strong action? Because they had to face the difficulties of the housing question, because they found that, having built tramways to convey the people from the crowded and congested areas, the price of land immediately went up from a penny per yard to threepence per yard in the neighbourhood of many towns. Not only that, but every administrative act, by every medical officer of health, that altered the unhealthy condition of a district, for every life saved, was seized on by the landlord as his opportunity. The landlord has taken advantage of every increased activity of the municipality, with the result that with increased municipal efforts you have land increasing in value. Let municipal energy cease, deprive land of municipal enterprise, and you at once make the land valueless, and it goes back again to worse than agriculture. Yes, but there is the remedy in the shape of rating of land values, out since "another place" exists we would be merely wasting our breath on Bills of that kind. The more far-seeing of our forefathers recognised that this House should have the right and control of the public finances of the country, and that is why we are right in coming forward to this House and asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to seize the opportunity by raising money from this source in his next Budget. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, the ablest advocate that they have got in opposition to land values, has an Amendment down to this Motion, in which he tries to show that there is no difference between land and other property, but land is like licences are, a monopoly. If you could drain the Atlantic from Liverpool to New York, you would go through no fences and toll gates, but it is impossible, and the result is: that however much the free population of this country may expand, there is no opportunity of adding to its acreage. But what always surprises me is that the hon. Member for Preston, who has been one of the grandest disciples of Mr. Cobden, whose name will always, even in the land controversy, be associated with the advocacy of these principles—how he can think that a man like Mr. Cobden, so specially endowed and gifted as he was, whilst he was able to see the great advantage that would accrue from Free Trade, would not be in favour of the policy now brought forward. Mr. Cobden was one of those who, over 65 years ago, pointed out the necessity c what we are now trying to achieve by our Motion to-night. It is over 65 years ago that, speaking in Derby, Mr. Cobden said:— Cobden saw this question as we who are in favour of the taxation of land values see it.
I would like to use one other argument that comes to my mind. They have applied this in New Zealand. Before they applied it the whole commerce entering New Zealand paid in taxation 26.25 par cent. That was what was taken off their imports. Since they have applied the tax they have reduced it to 18.65. Therefore, on every £100 worth of your commerce—on your cotton goods or whatever they may be—sent over to New Zealand there is £S less charged to-day than there was before they had this tax. The evils of the present system of land ownership are outrageous, amongst others, it keeps labour from the land, which is the storehouse of nature from which all wealth proceeds. Land can exist without labour but labour cannot exist without land. Land eats nothing, but the labourer must eat every day. In cities unearned land pays no rates and is held up for an advance. Hence people are crowded together. Why does not the Government, which is so courageous with its Patents Bill, in which it will not allow a privilege to be granted except on condition of use, apply that principle to unused land and say that people who do not use the land shall be deprived of the privilege? We are not without examples of this system. In Germany they have gone considerably further than we even suggest in this Motion. They have adopted something like the system of a Bill which I have twice introduced into this House, though it has got no further. In Germany many towns own their own land, with the result that they live rate free. Fancy one of the boroughs of London being rate free! And yet there is not one borough in London which, if it had acquired its land fifty years ago, would not be rate free to-day. You cannot compete with a country which is far-seeing enough to use the advantage of the ownership of its own land.
We have other experiences. Let us learn something from our Colonies. In Wellington, the capital of New Zealand, the Town Clerk reported, in 1906, that sion, and it has thus enormously reduced unemployment, raised wages, shortened the hours of labour, stayed the flow of emigration, and reduced railway fares and freights. During the four years prior to its adoption in New Zealand the emigration exceeded the immigration by 17,789 persons. During the two years following its adoption the tide was reversed and the immigration exceeded emigration by 15,370. Everywhere wages are higher, hours shorter, and work more plentiful. In New South Wales the system was adopted in 1896, and in that year wages increased and work became more plentiful. During the four years prior to 1896 the number of unemployed registered with the labour bureaux was 18,000, 12,000, 13,000, and 14,000. In the three years following, the numbers were 6,000, 4,000, and 3,000, and in the same period the area of land under cultivation increased by 905,000 acres, being equal to 50 per cent, on the entire acreage previously cultivated. The result of the tax has been to effect a great improvement in social conditions. At the time it was started business and wages were both diminishing. A few years later wages were higher, work was more plentiful and the number of unemployed had been diminished by about two-thirds. In Queensland they have adopted the same principle with the same result, and I should like those interested to read the Paper issued 15 months ago from the Department in reference to Queensland since it was adopted there. The great advantage is that it would impose no burden on industry and no check on commerce. Our present system checks both. My Friend, in introducing this Motion, said that formerly the land paid for the expenses of naval and military affairs. I should like the land to be paying for our Navy to-day. But what was the position then? The landowners own the land. It is their land that the Navy is made to protect. The national debt, pauperism and the grinding poverty of the poor classes came in as the landowners by self-interested legislation took off their personal responsibilities and substituted for them indirect taxation. Mr. Andrew Carnegie, in his new book, "Problems of the Day," says that the greatest source of wealth from any one source in our time comes from the increased value of real estate, on which little or no labour is disposed. With the increasing population the value of the land in the United States increases £260,000,000 a year, or over £700,000 a day. The obvious creator of the wealth is not the individual but the community. The increase here is in much the same proportion as in the United States, but we have not the system that is in operation in the United States, and therefore we cannot know, and we do not know, what is the exact value of the land in this country. Our Motion makes reference to the mineral wealth. It is a subject one does not often hear referred to on Tariff Reform platforms. What is the position? Pig iron on account of royalties in Northumberland costs 3s. 6d. per ton, in Scotland 6s. per ton, in Cumberland 6s. 3d., in Germany 6d., in France 8d., and in Belgium 1s. 3d. In this country it all goes to private individuals. When the landowner enters into an agreement with a coal company he invariably adopts the system of so much for royalties, but there is a minimum charge fixed as a dead-rent, and whether they get sufficient out of the mine or not that rent has to be paid. The Government are introducing a Town Planning Bill, but it will be of little effect if they do not deal at the same time with the question of the taxation of land values. They have introduced a Small Holdings Bill which disgusts many of those who sit on these benches by the miserable way in which it is working, and it has done the agricultural districts more harm than if it had not passed. Small holdings increase land values, and that is claimed for it by the Minister who was responsible for it to the House. They increase land values, but that does not mean increasing the common wealth, because what the landowner gets the poor tenant has got to pay. A system of small holdings and peasant proprietors is admirable so far as it goes, but it will not settle the land question so long as society is punished for its progress, and so long as the fruits of civilisation are appropriated by the landowners. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister a few days ago received a deputation representing the municipal authorities of this country. They came begging for money, which they are justly entitled to do when you consider what this House has inflicted upon them in the way of education and other matters without giving them any corresponding financial aid. You have gone forward with all those measures, and I would like to know why the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget cannot co-operate with the municipal authorities who are so much in earnest upon this question, and let him promise them half of the rate that he would get by our proposal. If the right hon. Gentleman puts a penny on the capitalised value and gives a halfpenny of if to the municipalities they will assist him in endeavouring to make it a perfect tax. I wish to make a personal appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is placed in a position almost unique in a Liberal Administration. Chancellors of the Exchequer who give relief to the people in their Budgets are soon forgotten, but Budgets like the one introduced by Sir William Vernon Harcourt live today, it is given to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do the same for this country now if he will only realise the possibilities of such a tax as that which we are proposing. If he realises those possibilities he will not only awaken and enthuse the democracy of this country, but he will start and initiate a system which will be a lasting benefit to the country generally. I beg leave to second the Motion.
I should like to move by way of Amendment "to leave out from the word 'House' to the end, and to add the words, 'it is unjust to impose new taxation upon property in land at a higher rate than upon other forms of property.'"
I wish to address myself to what I think is the main argument which has induced so many people in this country—because I think there are many—to accept this idea that I personally regard as a delusion. I believe the main idea in their minds is that they believe that landowners are holding back land deliberately from commercial use in order to secure greater private profit. That is the common conception. Well, I doubt whether that is true. I quite admit that there may be particular cases where a landowner, having bought land in the hope that it will rise, holds it in the anticipation of getting that rise. Is it only landowners who do that? I have heard of people doing it in business, even buying cotton in the hope that it will rise, and holding it until they secure that rise. On the Stock Exchange the same thing is done. Therefore there is not that fundamental distinction as regards that action which is sometimes suggested. But it may be argued that you do more harm by holding back land. Is that so? [Cries of "Yes."] Supposing a capitalist got control of a large quantity of raw cotton, could he not do more harm to this country by holding back that cotton than one man can do by holding back one piece of land? It is not apparently realised that all the land of this country cannot be held back, because it is not all in one man's hands. If one man holds back his land another puts it up for sale. I put it as a general proposition, that if one piece is held back there are other pieces available, and unless the whole of the land of this country were held back it is absurd to speak of it in the way it is sometimes done.
In fact, every day in the market there is land offered for sale in any quantity. Therefore, as a general proposition, it is absurd to say that land is held back. What happens is, that a landowner does not sell for the simple reason that he cannot find a purchaser. Hon. Members opposite, and on this side of the House, seem to forget two propositions which to me seem-axiomatic. The first is that you cannot sell a thing unless there is a demand for it. Secondly, you do not create a demand for a thing by putting a tax upon it. I submit that latter proposition to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor I think the right hon. plied the argument in other directions. You do not create a demand for a thing simply by putting a tax upon it. There seems to be an idea in the mind of those-Gentlemen that the land-value tax is a. kind of manure, which you have only to apply heavily enough and the land will begin to sprout up. You cannot increase the value simply by taxation. That is as doctrine which I recommend to hon. Gentlemen-opposite. You simply transfer money from one pocket to another. ["Hear, hear."] Of course, my hon. Friend opposite cheers that, because he wants to transfer all the money of the landowners to the pockets of other people. The hon. Member who submitted the Motion was more moderate; he wants to go by stages. The first stage is to collar the money of the landowner, and then, armed with that precedent, to go for the money of the capitalist. Let me ask the House to consider how they propose to effect the object in view by their methods. They have got the idea that they can bring land into profitable national use. I lay stress upon the word "national," because unless there is a profit to the nation there is no advantage in this proposal, and you have no right to tax the landowner more than any other man unless you have some profitable national use to get out of it. They have got an idea that by putting a tax on a piece of land you will force the sale of that land, and therefore the nation would be benefited. The first assumption made is that the purchaser will treat that land better from the national point of view than the man himself. That is pure assumption. As a matter of fact, he might hold it up just as much. I can show—it is a matter of arithmetic—that he may not have an additional motive for selling or for using the land. Take the case of a piece of land which is worth £1,000, and which is being held up. The man is losing 4 per cent, on his £1,000—or £40 a year. You propose to tax him a penny in the pound, or 10 per cent, of the annual value, £4 a year, which, added to the £40, is an annual loss of £44. It may be that £4 would not make much difference to a rich man. But suppose he is a poor man, and he sells because he does not like to pay the £4. The fact that there is this charge on the land must necessarily reduce its selling value proportionately, so that the land is 10 per cent, cheaper. It is, therefore, no longer worth £1,000; it is worth £900. You have taken £100 away from the value. What advantage has the nation got? The man who has paid £900 for it will lose £36 a year, and adding the £4 tax, that makes the £40, just what it was before, the only difference being that the £4 comes to him as a periodic blow, just as does a call on shares which are not doing very well. And, just as it happens, that people whose shares are not doing well hold on to them until they fall and then sell if they are weak holders, so weak holders of land will sell if they are weak, and the people who will acquire the land will be the strong holders. Thus you would crush out the weak holders in order to let the land get into the hands of the strong holders. What is meant by the best use of the land from the national point of view? Does that mean necessarily the most profitable use to the man who owns it? Certainly not. I know cases in London where the Duke of Westminster lets land on a long lease at 2d a foot—land for which he could have got 1s. 6d. per foot if he let it for commercial purposes. I know the history of the transaction. He got 2d. where he could have got 1s. 6d. Therefore you are going to put a tax on him for putting his land to a more profitable use, and to turn out his working-men tenants.
Or take the question of sport which was mentioned. The hon. Member for Leeds is perhaps not aware that there is a good deal of land which commands a higher rent for sport than for agricultural purposes. How is his tax on land values going to benefit that? It will encourage the owner to put more land into sport in order to get more rent. If you want to stop land being diverted from agriculture to sport, and I think that is a national purpose and affects the question of sporting rights, you must attack the question directly; you must not attempt to do it by this side wind, and I think you will find a good deal of opposition on this side of the House if you attempt to abolish the game laws. The hon. Member opposite laid stress on what he called access to land. Surely even with what he confesses is his limited experience of agricultural life, he must be aware it is useless to tell the labourer he can have access to land. Offer him 20 acres, and what is he to do with it without capital, because the capital is infinitely more important to all of us than the land.
Now I pass to a different kind of argument. I want hon. Members to justify to themselves the proposition which is inherently made in all these schemes of the taxation of land values, namely, that you are to pick out the man who owns land out of all men who own property in another form. I contend that is essentially unjust. I will take a case which occurs easily, the case of a working man who saved a little money and who may buy land. His neighbour buys Consols, and what right have you to tax one of those men at a higher rate than the other? You can see the absurdity in which you are involved. The hon. Member mentioned the case of Sefton Park, and he described how it had been sold at an inflated value to someone—[An HON. MEMBER: "To the Corporation."] Very well; and that Lord Sefton has got the money, and under my hon. Friend's Motion it is the Corporation who would have to pay the land values taxation and Lord Sefton would not. He cannot get over that difficulty.
Yes, quite easily. The corporation would obviously pay on the park, but what my Friend referred to was the land around the park which had increased in value.
Which of the two people are you going to tax. Are you going to tax the man who has got the land, or the man who has got the value of it? You call it taxation of land values, and whom are you going to tax, the man who bought the land or the man who got the price of it? That is a fundamental difficulty. Do not let Members ride off with the assumption that it is at all analogous to putting duties on tea or something else, because they all can be shifted on to the consumer. Here is a tax you cannot shift, and that is the injustice of it. You perpetrate an injustice by it. You pick out a particular man and put a tax on him which you do not put on the rest of the community.
Now see how it works out in particular cases. I take two towns in Lancashire. In one it is the custom that houses shall be built on freehold ground, and in the other on leasehold. In the former town a man, having saved £300, buys a site for £50, and has only £250 left with which to build the house. In the other district, where it is the custom to have 999 years leases, the man has to pay no lump sum for the ground, but simply a ground rent of £2 per annum. Consequently he has £300 to build with, and therefore can erect a better house. How are you to decide who is to pay the tax in each of those cases? Are you going to put a special tax on the man who has bought the land, and let the man who has leased the land pay no tax at all? Where is the justice of putting the tax on the landlord, who has let the land for £2 per annum, instead of insisting on £50 down? He is merely taking the payment spread over a number of years. I laid stress on the fact that if a man gets his land on lease he has more capital available, and can therefore build a better house. That brings me back to the point that access to capital is always more important than access to land. I have here authentic figures taken from a particular estate, on which a good many houses have been erected and a fair amount of land given to each. The land cost £400 an acre. Taking capital at 5 per cent, the cost per house works out at £17 7s. per annum—including drains and everything.
How many houses were erected?
Seventeen houses per acre, at £300 each. The price per house, taking capital at five per cent., works out at £17 7s. per annum. If the land had been obtained absolutely for nothing, there would have been an annual saving on each house of £1 3s. 6d. On the other hand, if you reduced the interest on capital from five per cent, to four per cent, there would have been a saving on each house of £3 9s. 4d. In other words, the economy secured by reducing the interest on capital by one per cent, would be three times as great as the economy secured by getting the land absolutely for nothing. That is in a suburb. In the rural districts, where the housing problem is more serious than in London, the price of land is a mere nothing compared with the price of building. The hon. Member opposite referred to over-crowding in a rhetorical passage of which I did not quite see the relevance to this particular proposal, because if you are going to tax land values with the object of forcing the owner of land to get more out of it, it will be his interest to put as many large buildings as he possibly can on a given piece of land, and you will get exactly those skyward houses to which the hon. Member referred. He will pile storey upon storey, in order to get the maximum out of each piece of land, whereas, if you do not tax land values people may still have the pleasure of seeing these little oases in the centre of cities in the form of private gardens. I would like to ask hon. Members on both sides of the House how they are going to deal with mortgages. What is the essential difference between taking a piece of land on lease and buying land and at once creating a mortgage upon it? In each case you have to pay an annual sum. In one case you pay it to the landlord and in the other case to the banker. If there is any logic in your scheme you must tax mortgages. What are you going to do with that part of your scheme? I should like to ask the Lord Advocate if it is part of his scheme 1 Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer has some views on the subject. I can tell him, at any rate, in order to simplify the task, that building societies in this country, with a collective membership of 617,000 people, have no less than £52,000,000 invested in mortgages. Does he propose to tax that? The friendly societies have enormous sums invested not only in mortgages, but also in those very pernicious things, ground rents. They have saved up their money year by year in order to guard themselves against sickness, and they have been criminal enough to invest in ground rents. The hon. Gentleman opposite proposes to take away from them the provision they have made for their sickness. Let me ask the Lord Advocate if he will explain how he is going to deal with the ordinary case of the leaseholder who has paid a premium for his lease? The difficulty arises in connection with the premium. It is fairly simple when dealing with a leaseholder who has not paid a premium. He may have a beneficial interest, and you can tax him on the ground that he pays on the assessed value of the house. But supposing he is paying a very low rent, because he has paid a capital sum, who is to pay the tax? He has paid a capital sum to the landlord, who has invested it perhaps in Argentine stock, and the land value has absolutely slipped out of your observation.
Neither of the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken on the question has attempted to answer the very important question as to what is to be done with existing contracts. I do not know what their view may be, but the view of the Prime Minister is that you must respect existing contracts under all circumstances. That was also the view of the late Prime Minister, and of the late Lord Advocate, but it is not the view of the present Lord Advocate. The present Lord Advocate has views of his own with regard to the sanctity of contract which are not those of most lawyers. It was his business to preside over a Committee which considered one of those municipal schemes referred to by the hon. Member for Manchester—one of those great schemes which was barred in its progress by a pernicious assembly elsewhere. Unfortunately, however, that same Bill was referred to a Select Committee of this House—a Committee so selected that, I think, with one or perhaps two exceptions, every Member was pledged to the doctrine of taxing land values. My hon. and learned Friend presided over it, and this is the report he drew up as to this Bill which had been before the country for nine years—this Municipal Bill which was to bring about the boons prophesied in the speech of my hon. Friend:—
Was not that a Scotch Bill?
Oh, yes.
We had nothing to do with the Scotch Bill.
The only difference between the Scotch Bill and the English Bill is that the Scotch Bill violated existing contracts and the English Bill respected them. What are you going to do with the existing contracts? The conception in the minds of hon. Members is that by taxing land values you are going to get greater value. I wonder whether leaseholders would welcome a proposal that their landlords should have an opportunity of revising the terms of their leases, but that would be the necessary consequence of tearing up leases. If you violate contracts as the Lord Advocate proposes to do people will begin to ask what contract is sacred. If I made a bargain with my landlord to pay all rates I should consider that I should be guilty of a mean act if I asked Parliament to shift the burden to the landlord. The Lord Advocate had a scheme of his own. He was not satisfied with 10 per cent. He wanted all rates to be placed on the land values, and he proceeded to define what was meant by land value in a somewhat lengthy legal phrase.
"Read, read."
All right. Here it is:
"'Capital land value' in reference to any lands and heritages includes the value of any common interest in land, and means the sum which such lands and heritages or common interest might be expected to realise if sold by a willing seller in the open market at the time of valuation, if—
That is what we are to tax, and if you only tax that heavily enough you shall have the Millenium. What would be the result in the ordinary English town 1 There every one knows the ordinary rateable value is five or six times the value of the site, without all these wonderful deductions. The rates are very often 8s. or 9s. in the £, consequently if you are going to put on your rates on land, as the Lord Advocate proposes, and take it off buildings, your rates will go up 40s. in the £. Most land taxers are a little shocked with that idea, but my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, who, I may be pardoned for saying, represents the ultra-intellectual view, because it seems to me on this matter he almost crossed the narrow line which separates genius from insanity, is perfectly prepared to accept a rate of 40s. in the £, but he has never explained who is to pay it, and out of what source it has to come.
I am quite willing to explain it if you will let me.
I am anxious to get on with my speech. I want to ask one-other question: Do my hon. Friends propose to apply their land-taxing scheme to Ireland?
They will not be allowed!
There we have been spending something like £100,000,000 in order to make the Irish peasant the owner of his farm, and after we have done that, are we going to turn round and say we must clap another tax upon him in order to relieve the English tax-payers? Is that proposed? If so, I think the security the Chancellor of the Exchequer holds in Ireland will lose some of its value. Are they prepared to apply their scheme to small holdings? [An HON. MEMBER: "Yes." Another HON. MEMBER: "No."] I will leave my Friends to settle their differences between them. Let me ask, also: Have they accepted the view of the Lord Advocate, that it is to apply to rural as well as urban districts? Because, if so, curious things would happen in the rural district of Derbyshire, which contains Chatsworth. You are going to tax people on the value of the land. Chatsworth would be taxed only on the value of the agricultural land upon which it stands. How about the rest of the population? How would the farmers and labourers like to make up the deficiency of the rates in that district?
The Duke of Devonshire would still have to pay.
Yes; I see he owns the surrounding land, but that is not always the case. There are many men who made their money in London, or in Manchester and have gone down to the country and bought a large mansion, and who is properly taxed upon the value of the mansion because he can pay the tax. You are going to relieve them of their taxation in order to put it on the farmers and the labourers in the district. One last point. I said that one of the causes which have induced so many people to adopt this idea of the taxation of land values was the belief that land was being held up. I have argued that. There is another view, that we have some special right to tax unearned increment. My hon. Friend opposite referred to that at considerable length, and I think he made a mistake, because, instead of unearned increment he said unearned income. I think he will agree with me that the two things are quite distinct. Let us be quite precise about that.
What we mean by unearned increment is a man getting his position improved by something which he has not done himself. It is generally agreed, by many people at any rate, that if a man has bought land for himself with his hard-earned money, he has a right to that value which he has paid for it. But some people think he has no right to the unearned value, due to the increase of population or whatever the cause may be. It is an increment which is shown in other forms of unearned increment besides land. Have hon. Members ever heard of successful speculations on the Stock Exchange? [Cries of "No," and laughter.] But that is not all. I can remember when I was a boy it was a very common thing to pay a guinea to a physician. Now, the same physician will ask two guineas or three guineas. Why? Because the community has increased in wealth and there are more people going to the physician. Therefore, the physician, without improving his own skill, has been able to put up his fees. [Cries of "No."] Yes; that is so. I say it is in the knowledge of the House that physicians' fees have gone up, and I should not be surprised to learn even that lawyers' fees have gone up. Is not that a case of unearned increment? But that is not all. Take the case of the domestic servant. I do not know any class of the community whose condition has been so rapidly improved as that of the domestic servant, whose wages have more than doubled in 20 years. Is not that unearned increment? [Laughter.] Hon. Members are still apparently unable to draw the distinction which I have drawn between unearned income and unearned increment. The improved position of the domestic servant is not due to her own exertions. [An HON. MEMBER: "She was robbed before."] Well, it is an advantage to her to be robbed no longer, and she has secured that advantage not from her own exertions, but from the general improvement of the community. It is exactly the same case as that of the agricultural labourer. I am sure that the hon. Member for Northampton will bear me out that the position of the agricultural labourer has improved enormously in the last 50 years. He does not work any harder than he did 50 years ago. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not so hard."] Quite so, not so hard; and yet agricultural labourers get more money, and they can buy more things with that money. That improvement in their position is unearned increment. ["No."] Then I despair of making my point clear. I contend that in any progressive community all of us are getting some unearned increment, because we are all of us deriving some advantage from the general advance of the community. I contend also that it is absolutely impossible to say that one class is getting more of that advantage than another with sufficient precision to enable you to pick out a particular class and tax that class only. If we were to do what hon. Members opposite have been demanding, and confiscate all unearned increment, it would mean confiscating the whole advance that the human race has made.
One last point. Inflated estimates have been mentioned as to the money we are to get out of it. On that point I will merely refer to a speech made by a distinguished Member of this Parliament some years ago. I will not mention his name because it was a blunder. He said:—
, who was indictinctly heard, said: I rise to second the Amendment, which challenges the justice of the proposal contained in the Motion. A tax on land is not paid by the land, but by the person who owns it, and I rise to put in a plea on behalf of the owners. Those of us who are in possession of land are honestly possessed of that which we hold, having it either by inheritance or by purchase, just as honestly as we are in possession of the clothes on our backs or anything else that we have paid for. Though there are very large areas of land owned by very large landowners, there is an immense number of small owners of land. Building societies enable great numbers of people to own land. On some they have put buildings and on some they have not. Great benefit societies have large funds invested in land too. The owners of land are a very numerous body, and by no means a rich body, but they are honestly possessed of that which they enjoy. Land is taxed now. Under Schedule A the owner of land has to pay income tax, and the tax includes not only the land, but whatever is on it, and it does not matter whether the land is mortgaged or not, but the whole value is included in the assessment. Income from land is taxed as fully as income from any other source. I may remind the House that during the last 10 years among all the classes in the country the owners of land have been perhaps the most unfortunate of all, because they have sustained the most enormous losses in regard to the value of their land. Land taxers refer to land as if it were continually increasing in value. Well, now, as to agricultural land: During 25 years at least, from 1853 to 1878, the value of land in this country was steadily rising, and the argument was that land could not be burned and could not run away, that the wealth of the people was increasing, and that the surest foundation to build your hopes on was the fact that the value of land was increasing, and would continue to increase. I am sorry to say I have lived long enough, to see that bubble completely pricked, and to have seen an extraordinary collapse in the landed property in this country. I have served on the Agricultural Commission which was appointed by the last Liberal Government in 1894 to inquire into* agricultural depression and its causes. We reported in 1897, and we reported then that the income of land in Great Britain, as shown by assessments under Schedule A of the income tax, had fallen by thirty and a half millions a year, or that the capital value of the land of Great Britain had fallen by no less a sum than £833,000,000, and if Ireland were included the decrease in the capital value of the whole United Kingdom was no less a sum than £1,000,000,000 sterling. That is a stupendous loss, incurred in the last generation by the unfortunate people whose property, I am sorry to say, has been depreciating in value. I live in a part of the country where we are very much more familiar with unearned decrement than with unearned increment, and I hope that in whatever may be done, we shall be equitably treated and that regard will be had to the losses we have had to sustain, when you take into account the increase that may have occurred in the case of the land that others may possess. The effect of the general decrease in the value of land has been most disastrous to large owners, many of whom have been unable to continue in occupation of their mansions. Those who have been able to continue in occupation were only those who were fortunate enough to own towns on their estates. The fall in value has been most severe in its effects on the yeomen farmers, who used to be the backbone of the country. They have been ruined by causes over which they had no control. Before this fall in value money was obtained most easily on land, and lawyers would almost laugh at people hesitating to lend money on what was supposed to be the most secure investment. The farms were largely subject to mortgages, and when the enormous fall in agricultural produce took place it hurried down to ruin many of the worthiest, the steadiest, the hardest working and the most estimable people in our agricultural counties. They were led into ruin by causes for which they were not in the least responsible, by the enormous fall which took place in the value of the produce and consequently, in the value of the land as well. It went from the nominal owners of the land to the mortgagee. If you go to any lawyer's office in an agricultural district you will find they are still full of the trouble which has arisen from the collapse of the securities out of which trustee money and money belonging to societies was taken. The terrible evil which we have been struggling with for the last 30 years is not the increment but the decrement of the value of land. Witnesses before the Agricultural Commission from the Isle of Ely were almost unanimous in picturing the depth of misery in certain agricultural districts through depreciation in the value of land, and they declared that they saw nothing but hopeless ruin before their eyes. We ought to remember all this painful history, which was so recent, and which was contrary to the expectations of all those who were most able to form some judgment of what happens to the value of land. We who have been unfortunate enough to own land have had to carry the whole of that loss. I appeal in confidence to this House and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer when I say that we are entitled to every penny of that increase in the value of our land in certain localities in view of the enormous losses we have sustained on other land. Nothing is more monstrous and unjust, after we have been suffering for a generation from a tremendous disease, than the taking away of our substance from us in the case of the land that is growing in value. The Chancellor of the Exchequer ought not to step in, and by putting extra taxation upon land take away that which we are entitled to. That would destroy thoroughly public confidence; it is so dishonest and contrary to the elementary principles of justice that it would inflict a staggering blow upon our national security and the credit of this country. It would also discourage the ownership of land. All our past history proves that the ownership of land is the only way to encourage a man to put his whole strength and energy into the land and increase its value in every possible way. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer requires money, and I know he does, why does he not tax ability to pay, no matter what it comes from. According to a man's means so should be his taxation.
The poor unfortunate landowner is willing to pay on such income he has, but he is not willing to have a special and peculiar burden imposed upon his individual shoulders. As to what has been said about the special value of land, and as to its being held back, I know nothing about it, and I see nothing about it in my own neighbourhood. Whatever the value that accrues, the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets his value out of it, the death duties, etc., and I beg him very earnestly to deal with us, the poor owners of land, in the same way as he would like to be treated himself, and not to put us under new and extra burdens. I second the Motion.
Question proposed: "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question."
I desire only to make one observation. I object to the application of either the Motion or the Amendment, because it gives an unjust predominance there. I can tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he should not extend any scheme for the taxation of land values for that country; that is, if he does he will not succeed in collecting the taxes. I see no conflict between the Motion and Amendment, except that the latter is technically an Amendment to the former. The point seems to be whether you are proceeding on scientific principles.
In an Irish Parliament in Dublin I should be heartily in favour of the taxation of land values, just as I should be heartily in favour of a graduated income-tax. I think you should tax persons who own large accumulations of property, whether it be real or personal property, but in the special circumstances I say, with very great seriousness, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find, if he proposes to extend these new taxes in his Finance Bill to Ireland, that we view all these things from the prospective of the Report of the Financial Relationship Committee appointed by the last Liberal Government. We believe Ireland is heavily overtaxed at the present. We do not in the least mind what taxes you raise in England or whatever you do; whether you tax yourself justly or unjustly, either to finance social reform or to purchase "Dreadnoughts," but we shall resist this as we have resisted other exactions.
One matter which considerably impressed me, is that in the debate there has been an almost entire absence of any due appreciation of the fact that real property to-day is already very heavily taxed—far more than personal property. The Local Taxation Commission, which reported in 1901, specially pointed out that while the personalty, subject to Imperial taxation, is about three times as great as real property, non-rateable property contributes to local bodies—if elementary education is excluded—a little over 6 per cent, of the whole expenditure, and nearly 83 per cent, falls on the rates. Amongst many suggestions which are made in this Report by which relief might be granted to this inequality, it was proposed that there should be an increased payment from death duties and personalty for local purposes—
And it being Eleven of the clock, the debate stood adjourned.
Imprisoned Suffragettes
On the Motion for the adjournment of the House—
I seize this opportunity, for which I have long waited, in the hope of making my protest, which I am sure others will be glad to make, in reference to the treatment of those women who are now undergoing various terms of imprisonment for the part they have taken in the suffragist agitation. During the last two days we have heard of nothing but war and rumours of war, but here we have as prisoners of war 21 poor women. I object to the treatment meted out to them because, whether we approve of their action or not, they are political prisoners. Their offence is clearly a political offence, and I confess that, when this offence has been perpetrated or alleged to have been perpetrated, in connection with this House by approaching it to see Ministers and technically obstructing the police, it would be a matter of generosity if this House condoned the offence, especially after this lapse of time. These people are treated differently from all other political prisoners who for generations have suffered for political offences.
If the House will allow me I will give experiences in the second-class division supplied to me by women, and when we recollect the treatment meted out to Dr. Jameson, with champagne dinners and suppers, the visiting of mammonised leaders of society, those persons who received that treatment were men, while here we have a case of poor women. Here is a description of one of those women of the treatment in Holloway Prison in the second division on 1st February. Continuing, the hon. Member quoted the statement reciting that the writer suffered greatly from cold during a sentence of one month, her cell never being warmer than 58 degrees, and one night going down below 36 degrees. One blanket was supplied, which was not sufficient covering, and she only got a second one on complaint to the doctor of not sleeping through cold. Even then she had to sleep in all her underclothing. A short nightdress was now provided, but the lavatory arrangements were not sufficient. Only after persistent complaint that grievance was somewhat mitigated. The wooden spoon had been replaced by a metal spoon, which gave an unpleasant taste to everything they ate. The absence of pencil and paper was a very great trial to educated persons. That was imprisonment suffered recently.
Here is another of a lady suffering imprisonment in July last, and if it were cold in February they suffered awful torment in July. Here is the treatment accorded. Continuing, the hon. Member quoted a description, stating that on arriving they had been put into cells where they were visited by the matron, and subsequently taken to a large room with several open doors. Two wardresses, two ordinary prisoners, and several of their friends were there, and there they were stripped, then weighed at the other end of the room, and having only one garment on. The prison clothes were clean, but horribly coarse and of the clumsiest pattern. The stockings were rough. They had to get up at 5.30 o'clock and scrub the floors of their cells. The sun poured mer- cilessly into the cells. They watered the floor to cool the atmosphere, thereby lessening the small amount of water allowed for the morning. They were not allowed to wash their hands during the day, and they found that very trying after eating vegetables with their hands. No nightdresses were allowed. One lady described the horrors of the life, and said that it was calculated to weaken the mind and produce madness. I say that it is scarcely creditable to any Government or to the House of Commons to allow these women to be imprisoned for weeks for such offences as these, and I shall continue to urge the matter in every way in my power upon the Home Secretary, who is absolutely responsible.
I wish to support very strongly the protest made by my hon. Friend. It is a positive disgrace to the Government that these ladies should be treated in the manner described. I say that quite apart from any sympathy with their particular views. They are unquestionably political prisoners, and I do not believe that in any other civilised country in the world they would be treated as they are being treated here. This protest ought to appeal particularly strongly to those Members who disagree with the political views of these ladies, because nothing is more likely to strengthen the movement than the scandalous and outrageous treatment to which these ladies have been subjected. On a previous occasion a protest was made against any attempt to ask for special treatment for some of these ladies on the ground of their being of a certain social position. Nobody has ever asked for special treatment on account of the social position of these ladies. The protest is not on account of their social position, because many who have suffered in this movement have been working women. We desire that they should all be treated alike. The protest is raised because of the motive. I have always held that breaches of the law, in no way disgraceful, but committed from political motives, ought to be treated in prison on a totally different footing from ordinary crimes. A conclusive test to my mind is this. Will any Member contend that the offences committed by these women fix any social stigma upon them? Are they thought worse of when they come out of prison by their friends or the society in which they live? They are not. On the contrary, they are honoured by their friends and by the public. That being so, although it may be found necessary to subject them to some punishment if they persist in committing breaches of the law, they ought not to be subjected to any humiliating or degrading treatment. Some of the particulars recited by my hon. Friend are positively revolting. Could anything be more horrible than that these ladies, upon reaching prison, should be stripped of their clothing and made to put on prison clothes? I myself have been subjected to that process, and know what it means. We raised the whole of this question in Ireland and abolished the system there as regards political offences. On investigation it was found that the only ground for insisting upon prisoners wearing prison clothes was that of cleanliness. Many ordinary prisoners reach prison in such a condition that prison clothes and a thorough wash are necessary as a sanitary precaution. Therefore, to subject these women to that indignity is a wanton outrage, which can be inflicted for no other motive except to insult and degrade. I say that such proceedings as these, instead of being calculated to abate this Suffragette movement, is caluculated to inflame and increase it. Anybody who has studied the history of these movements is aware that men have been compelled to break the law from strong conviction, and nobody will deny that these women are breaking the law from strong conviction, and with the desire to alter the law. No one will say that the result of treating them in the insulting way which has been described will have any effect except to give them an increased incentive to proceed with the movement, and I think hon. Members who object to the Suffragette movement, and who are opposed to giving votes to women, ought to be more eager to have their treatment altered than those who are in favour of the proposal to give votes to women. We have again and again challenged the Home Secretary to apply to these women the same treatment as was accorded to Dr. Jameson, who was emancipated from all those degrading provisions. He was allowed to have his room furnished, and to entertain his friends in prison. You went a great deal too far in his case; but it is within the power of the Home Office to modify the treatment. It was done in the earlier stages of this agitation, and I say it is the opinion of many outside the House that it is the attacks on this House itself which have led to this dishonouring treatment. I think the public out not to be allowed to think that we are taking a vindictive course towards these women, and I appeal to the representative of the Home Office to give an undertaking that the whole matter will be reconsidered.
I desire to join in the remonstrance of my hon. Friends. Speaking for myself, and I am quite sure for a good many Members of this House, I regard the treatment to which these women are being subjected and the whole method of punishing them in this way for doing what they are doing from honourable motives as repugnant to us, and we call upon the Government to put a stop to it at once. It is confusing the mind of the public altogether as to what crime is and what punishment is when you mix up women of this kind, who from public motives, and from honourable motives from their point of view, desire to put forward a public question in which they are deeply interested and concerned—when you mix them up with the ordinary criminal you confuse the public mind as to the meaning of law and the meaning of crime. If the Government of this free England is not able to invent some better way of putting a stop to the proceedings of ladies who desire to present a Petition to the Prime Minister it is time that the Government had more intelligent Members than it appears to have. I appeal to the Under-Secretary on this subject, and I join in the protest that has been made by my hon. Friends.
I regret that my right hon. Friend is prevented through indisposition from attending the House, for, had he been able, I am sure he would have been in his place to answer the criticisms of the hon. Gentlemen who have just spoken. The complaint made with regard to the treatment of the Suffragettes in prison proceeds on two grounds. In the first place, it is stated that these ladies should have been made prisoners in the first division, and in the second place, that in the second division they are exposed to indignities and hardships which ought not to be laid upon them. The Home Secretary has explained again and again that in his view it would be unconstitutional for him to override the discretion of the magistrates with regard to the division in which these ladies should be placed. The case of Dr. Jameson was, as has been repeatedly pointed out in answers to questions, before the Prisons Act of 1898. That Act distinctly declares that it is to be in the discretion of the Court to say in which division a prisoner was to be placed, and since that time the Home Secretary has not in any case overridden the decision of the Court. There have been one or two cases in which the Courts made no order in which division a prisoner was to be placed. In such a case the Home Secretary has made representations to the magistrate asking whether he might not think it was suitable to place a prisoner in the first division. That was done in one or two cases towards the beginning of this movement. Since then the magistrates have made orders specifying the second division. These cases, therefore, are differentiated entirely from that of Dr. Jameson and from the earlier cases in which these ladies were concerned. The Secretary of State again and again has expressed the opinion that it would be unconstitutional to override, and in a whole class of cases, the distinct terms of the Act of Parliament under which the magistrates imposed the sentences. It is idle to say that these ladies are imprisoned for attempting to present petitions to Ministers. It is notorious that they went to Palace Yard with the desire to be arrested and with the intention to be imprisoned. If these ladies were sent to the first division, allowed to receive their friends, and conduct their lives as if they were in their own homes, and if the agitation was allowed to go on unchecked by any real deterrent, the supporters of other causes would act similarly. The result would be that it would become not only their right, but their duty, to follow the same methods in order to secure a remedy for the grievances of which they complain, and these disturbances in the neighbourhood of the Houses of Parliament would become a normal method of political propaganda on subjects in which a number of persons were keenly in earnest. Imprisonment is intended to be penal, but it is not intended that imprisonment should be cruel for these ladies or anybody else. I have no doubt ladies of education and culture feel the conditions of prison life more than ordinary offenders. The Home Secretary has been unwearied in. inquiry into every complaint, whether large or minute, which has been addressed to him on behalf of these ladies, either by themselves or their friends. He has found that many of the complaints were unfounded. With regard to the changing of clothes—from the allegations made tonight the House would imagine that, in the presence of wardresses, these women's clothes are almost torn off their backs.
It was so at first and until we got it stopped.
At first the change was in the presence of wardresses. I do not see that the hon. Member should raise as an abuse something that has long ago been remedied. It was the case of these ladies as of other women that they were required to undress and change their clothing in the presence of wardresses. That was a very necessary precaution in the case of very many prisoners of the ordinary type, but objection having been raised to this, my right hon. Friend ordered an alteration of practice, and now they are allowed to change their clothing absolutely in private. Many of these ladies have made no complaint, and one or two have spoken, I will not say in cordial terms, but at any rate in terms by no means critical of the treatment they have received while in prison. The specific allegations raised by the hon. Member will be most carefully inquired into by my right hon. Friend, and if any reasonable case is made out for a change of practice I am sure the experience of the past will lead the House to believe that my right hon. Friend will welcome the opportunity of making any alterations that are found to be necessary.
Question put: "That this House do now adjourn."
Motion agreed to.
The House adjourned at twenty-seven minutes after Eleven of the clock.