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Commons Chamber

Volume 2: debated on Thursday 25 March 1909

House of Commons

Thursday, March 25, 1909

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Russia and Persia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether his attention has been called to a telegram addressed by the provincial council of Resht and by the governor of that town to this House, under date 22nd instant, to the effect that order and security prevail in the town and district of Resht; that all the consulates, including the Russian consulate, have expressed their satisfaction; and that the governor and inhabitants protest against the arrival in the town of Russian Cossack troops, accompanied by two quick-firing guns, as a course humiliating to the national dignity and calculated to cause national resentment; and has he received from His Majesty's Consul at Resht, prior to the decision of the Russian Government to send troops, any representations as to the existence of danger to Europeans in that town in view of an impending collision between the Shah's troops and the forces of the Nationalists?

My attention has been called to a telegram of the nature indicated in the question, but I have nothing to add to the statement I have already made.

Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer the last part of the question, whether the Consul at Resht, prior to the arrival of the Russian troops, made any representations?

I dealt with the whole subject, according to my information, quite fully yesterday.

Egyptian and Syrian Railway

asked whether the Egyptian Government has entered into any agreement to promote the construction of a railway which will connect Egypt with Syria?

I am unaware of any such agreement for the purpose mentioned by the hon. Member having been entered into by the Egyptian Government.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any knowledge that such a railway is contemplated?

I have no knowledge of it being contemplated by the Egyptian Government. Of course it is a matter on which I should expect the Consul-General to report.

Cattle-Driving in Ireland

asked whether the Estates Commissioners have been supplied with particulars of the names, residences, and occupations of all persons who have been bound to the peace for cattle-driving?

Returns have been furnished to the Estates Commissioners giving the names of persons convicted, punished, or bound to the peace, in connection with cattle-driving or other illegal interference with untenanted or grazing lands, with particulars in each case of the offence.

Untenanted Lands, Trim, County Meath

asked whether the Estates Commissioners have purchased some untenanted land in the parish of Trim, county Meath, from the Church body for division amongst evicted tenants and small holders; if so, whether it is contemplated to give part of the land to a man named John Hughes; whether Hughes is an evicted tenant or lives near the land to be divided, and, if not, why is he selected as entitled to any portion of it?

These lands have not yet been acquired by the Estates Commissioners, and they have not, up to the present, approved of any scheme for their allotment.

Boycotting (Mrs. Hall, Quin, County Clare)

asked whether Mrs. Hall, of Clooney House, Quin, county Clare, a lady of nearly 80 years of age, has for some months past been boycotted because she refused to sell her demesne lands, in addition to other lands which she had sold to the Estates Com missioners; whether her herd, labourer, and gardener were each ordered to quit her service and did so; whether her barn was burnt down and her hay destroyed; whether she was obliged to get two men from the Property Defence Association to look after her cattle and sheep; whether seven police have been employed constantly to protect the lives of these men and of Mrs. Hall herself; and whether there are any indications in recent weeks of the stringency of this boycott being relaxed?

I regret to say that the facts of Mrs. Hall's case are as stated. The case is a bad one, but the police are as vigilant and active as they can be, and I am informed that there are signs of improvement. The denunciation by the parish priest of the burning of Mrs. Hall's barn may have had some effect.

May I ask whether, the facts being as they are now stated, the the right hon. Gentleman has had the assistance which we were led to expect, from the hon. Member for Mayo, in putting down boycotting by the United Irish League in Dublin?

I, of course, have no knowledge of any such operations. I can only say I am informed by the Inspector-General that there are signs of improvement.

The signs, as told to me, are that boycotting is being partially removed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate with the hon. Member for East Mayo on the subject?

Old Age Pensions (Ireland)

asked on what evidence the Local Government Board for Ireland have decided appeals from the county Meath under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, on the question of the income derived from land and live stock; whether they have taken expert advice, local or otherwise, as to the value of the same; whether in all or in any cases they have afforded the claimants an opportunity of being heard, other than through the pension officer, in support of their claims; and whether they have decided many of those appeals without any reference to the opinion of the local pension committee and without calling for the same?

The practice of the Local Government Board, when deciding appeals in the case of claimants who occupy small holdings, is to obtain particulars of all the live stock possessed by the claimants, and to ascertain how their holdings are cropped, regard being had in each case to the quality of the land and the locality in which the farm is situated. The answer to the second paragraph of the question is in the affirmative. Every claimant has an opportunity of submitting his case to the Board, and in several instances, where the facts were in doubt, the Board have sent one of their officers to visit the claimant. In contentious cases the Board have had the benefit of the views of a sub-committee of the pension committee.

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he was aware that in most cases of claims from the county Meath under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, the pension officers have fixed the income derived from the land at three times the judicial rent, and four times the Land Commission annuities; whether on appeals from that inflexible basis the Local Government Board for Ireland have, in many cases, called for no further evidence than the poor-law valuation of the holding; and whether, seeing that other circumstances affect the income of small farmers, they would cause an expert inspector to hold local inquiries as to appeals in cases of income derived from land?

The Local Government Board understand that the basis of calculation set out in the first part of the question has been generally adopted by pension officers. I have explained, in my reply to the question just asked by the hon. Member, the method adopted by the Local Government Board for the purpose of arriving at the facts in connection with appeals. It is not proposed to alter the existing practice.

asked whether the Local Government Board for Ireland, in deciding appeals against claimants, in most cases give no reason for the same; and whether, seeing that dissatisfaction is expressed at the alleged inconsistency of some of their decisions, he will request the Local Government Board for Ireland in future to state in every case their reasons for disallowing a claim or pension?

The Local Government Board have been advised that the form in which they give their decisions is correct. They do not admit that there is any inconsistency in their decisions, and they do not consider it necessary to explain their reasons in every case, the facts which are submitted for their decision being generally fully understood. The answer to the last paragraph of the question is in the negative.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he was aware that, owing to increase of rates consequent on the withholding of portions of local taxation grants from local bodies in Ireland and the imposition of income tax and drainage rates upon tenant purchasers, the annual payments of some of these are as great as before purchase; whether the proposals of the new Land Bill are intended to impose upon future purchasers, in addition, advance dividend and a further one-fourth per cent, on the amount of the advance, without shortening the term of 68½ years; and whether he will treat these proposals as essential to the Bill?

I have no information which would go to show that the fact is at all as suggested in the first part of the question. The hon. Member will have full opportunity of discussing the Irish Land Bill when it is passing through the House.

Labourers' Cottages (Capparogan, Queen's County)

asked the grounds on which County Court Judge Fitzgerald rejected the cottage passed by the Local Government Board inspector, on the town-land of Capparogan, Clonaslee, barony of Tinnahinch, Queen's County, for a labourer named Patrick Murphy; whether Murphy is an evicted tenant, and the land on which the site was fixed untenanted; and what steps the Local Government Board propose taking to provide this man with a cottage and plot?

The grounds of the decisions of the county courts are not communicated to the Local Government Board. I am therefore unable to say why this cottage was rejected. The Board inform me that the evidence taken at the local inquiry shows that the proposed site was on untenanted land, but there is nothing in the evidence to indicate that the applicant was an evicted tenant. It does not rest with the Board to take any further steps in the matter.

Queen's College, Cork

asked whether the name of Queen's College, Cork, has been changed to that of University College; if so, for what reason the change has been made; and whether he is aware that the change is viewed with great regret and even indignation by a number of old graduates of the college?

By the new Charter granted to the college under the provisions of the Irish Universities Act, its former name of Queen's College, Cork, has been changed to University College, Cork. The reason of the change is that the college is now a constituent college of the National University of Ireland, the other two constituent colleges being University College, Dublin, and University College, Galway. Since the issue of the Charter, I have received a resolution, adopted at a meeting of graduates of the College in London, expressing regret at the change.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the name of the new college in Dublin is National University or Nationalist University?

Arterial Drainage (Ireland)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, having regard to the information collected by the various Commissions on arterial drainage in Ireland and to the number of officials engaged at the public expense in inspecting land for one purpose or another under the Land Commission, the Estates Commissioners, the Congested Districts Board, the Local Government Board, and the Board of Works, whether, with the existing materials and additional rapid inspections, where necessary, by inspectors engaged in the counties in which the necessity would arise, he can see his way to granting the Return of Land Injured by Water of which notice stands on the Order Paper?

I regret that I am unable to agree to this Return. I am informed it would take several years, to prepare. It would not be possible to utilise the services of the officials referred to, who are already fully employed.

St. John's Bridge, Kilkenny

asked the Secretary to the Treasury, whether he is yet in a position to explain the cause of the delay in issuing the loan granted last October for the reconstruction of St. John's Bridge, Kilkenny City; whether he was aware that there were hundreds of men out of employment during the past five months who could and would have been provided with employment but for this delay in completing this loan; and would he see that the money is passed at once?

I am informed by the Board of Public Works that the question of the period for which this loan could be granted has now been disposed of, and that the loan will be submitted by the Board of Works for Treasury sanction in a few days.

West Bromwich Medical Referee

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he is aware that Dr. Langley Browne, of West Bromwich, who is the medical referee under the Workmen's Compensation Act, was also a director of the Birmingham and Midland Assurance Company; and whether he will say what action he proposes to take with a view to avoiding prejudice in cases in which Dr. Langley Browne is called upon to give an opinion?

The Secretary of State has not previously had this matter brought to his notice. Dr. Langley Browne, who is a practitioner of considerable standing, was a medical referee under the Act of 1897, and was reappointed under the Act of 1906. The matter will have the Secretary of State's consideration, and he will let the hon. Member know the result.

Correspondence, re Aliens, with Judge Rentoul

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the last letter, i.e., that of the 12th instant, he had received from Judge Rentoul, K.C.?

No, Sir; the Secretary of State does not propose to continue the correspondence which has already been published. He may add that the Order to print the correspondence was given by the House of Commons on 11th March., and the letter in question was not written until the following day, the 12th, on which day the Paper was issued.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State for the Home Department gave a definite pledge to publish the entire correspondence?

The correspondence up to date. It is obvious that if the correspondence were to continue, it might be indefinitely prolonged.

Barrow-in-Furness Accident

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the accident at the works of Messrs. Vickers, Sons, and Maxims, Limited, at Barrow-in-Furness, on Saturday, 20th March; and whether any inquiry is likely to be made into the cause, with a view of avoiding similar catastrophes in the future?

Yes, Sir, the Secretary of State has received a report from the Inspector of Factories with regard to this accident. The coroner's inquest, which has been adjourned till April 5th, will be attended by the inspector, and the circumstances and cause of the accident will be fully investigated. A further report will be made to the Secretary of State at the conclusion of the inquest, when the matter will receive his careful Consideration.

Old Age Pension Disqualifications

asked the Lord Advocate if his attention has been drawn to the case of Mrs. Ellen Morrison, in the parish of Kilmallie, in Inverness-shire, who has been refused an old age pension by the Local Government Board, because her husband, an invalid old man, is in receipt of 5s. a week of poor relief which is used entirely for his maintenance, while she is an able-bodied woman, able and willing to earn her own living, but has to stay at home to nurse her husband, thus saving the parish council the expense of a nurse who would have to be employed if the wife did not stay at home; and whether he will take steps to get the Local Government Board to reconsider their decision?

As I have already pointed out to hon. Members, the Local Government Board have no power to reconsider their decisions. As the claimant in this case had no means of her own, it was impossible for the Board to hold otherwise than that she was participating in the relief given to her husband, and was accordingly disqualified under the provisions of the Act.

Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that if this case had occurred in England the course adopted would have been to consult the local guardians as to whether the whole sum was spent for the benefit of the husband, and, if so, the woman would have received a pension, and if he will see that Scotland is not unfairly treated?

I am aware that what was done in this case is done in England and is also done in Scotland.

Is it a fact that if a Resolution were passed to the effect that this woman had not received relief she would get a pension?

No. The Local Government Board in Scotland, according to the regulations, consider the evidence and act upon it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Local Government Board have decided against pensions that were already given by the local committee?

It may be so. If the Local Government Board had additional information it would not act exclusively on the information given by the parish council.

They have no power to reconsider the case, but if a fresh point arises and fresh application is made, the Local Government Board will consider it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that pensioners in Scotland are put on an equal footing with those of England, and not on any worse footing?

asked the Lord Advocate if his attention had been drawn to the case of Mrs. Margaret M'Millan, in the parish of Kilmallie, in Inverness-shire, who has been refused an old age pension by the Local Government Board, because, when she was turned out of her house in 1902, she applied for and got a house from the parish council, but she never understood that the rent was paid by the parish council, else she would not have accepted it, and when offered pecuniary relief she absolutely refused it; and whether he will take steps to get the Local Government Board to reconsider their decision and have the matter put right?

I am informed that the applicant has been allowed by the parish council for nearly seven years to live rent free in a house provided by the parish council. Under these circumstances it was impossible for the Board to hold otherwise than that she was receiving poor relief in the sense of the Act.

Balbriggan Harbour Regulations

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he has received a complaint from the fishermen of Balbriggan regarding a recent regulation made by the Dublin Port and Docks Board for the harbour of Balbriggan; whether the regulation referred to has the effect of blocking the mouth of the inner part of the harbour against fishing boats, whether going out to or coming in from the sea, for 24 hours at a time, namely, while certain steamers are discharging their cargoes; and, if so, whether the Department intend to inquire into the matter, and to take such steps as may be necessary to safeguard the just interests of the fishermen?

The Department have received the complaint referred to. It points to the necessity for deepening Balbriggan Harbour, in regard to which matter the Department are in communication with the Port and Docks Board.

Am I to understand that the Department is in consultation with the Port and Docks Board with reference lo deepening the harbour?

I propose to go to Balbriggan next week and inquire into the whole question.

Construction of Undenominational Schools

asked if the whole of the £100,000 voted for the construction of undenominational schools in single school areas has been allotted; and if any Return has been, or will be, published showing the allocation of the money?

There are still a few cases outstanding, which are under consideration, but a decision has now been reached upon the great majority of applications received. A statement showing the allocation of the grant up to 31st October last was issued in November, and a further Return will be published, if necessary, at a later date.

Chinese Troops in Hachim

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, if he can state what representations have reached the Indian Government relative to the fort now being built for the Chinese troops in a situation commanding the British fort at Sima, in the Hachim district?

The Secretary of State has received no information as to the erection of a Chinese fort commanding the British military police fort at Sima.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, if he has now ascertained the dates upon which the Chinese troops entered the Hachim Valley, removing boundary posts and levying taxes upon natives under British protection?

No Hachim Valley can be identified. If the hon. Member is referring to the incident mentioned in the answer given to him on 8th March,.I would add to the information then furnished that the reports received do not state that "boundary posts were destroyed or taxes levied.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, if he can state the expenditure on mules and transport incurred during the last six months by the British column in the Hachim Valley, on the Chino-Burmese frontier; what troops are stationed there; and if reinforcements are to be (dispatched?

No British column was collected on the occasion referred to in my immediately preceding answer nor elsewhere on the northern section of this frontier. With a view to a tour by the Political Officer, which was afterwards abandoned, a certain collection of transport was begun, but I am unable to say what expenditure was incurred. No troops are stationed on this portion of the frontier.

Will the Under-Secretary be so good as to make inquiries In view of the importance of the matter?

If the Noble Lord will give me any further information as to the matter to which he refers inquiries can be made. We have no further information of any encroachment or threatened encroachment.

Salterhebble (All Saints' School)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he has received the Report of his Commissioner, Mr. F. H. Oates, on the All Saints' Church school, Salterhebble; and, if so, whether he would lay the Report upon the Table of the House?

I have not yet received the report of this inquiry, which was held on Friday last. The report will be deposited in accordance with the provisions of Section 73 (3) of the Elementary Education Act, 1870. I do not see any special reason in this case for departing from the usual practice and laying the report on the Table of the House.

Secondary Schools (Free Places)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will revise the present official interpretation of the regulation dealing with free places in secondary schools, under which in some places 40 or even 50 per cent, of the scholars are admitted without payment instead of one-fourth, as the regulation provides and as Parliament intended?

The regulation in question requires that the proportion of free places shall be ordinarily 25 per cent, of the total number of pupils admitted to the school during the previous year. The Board are aware that this requirement may result in making more than 25 per cent, of the school places free, but in schools where the number of free places now amounts to 40 or 50 per cent, this cannot be due to the regulation, which has only been in operation for two years, and is probably due to arrangements voluntarily made by local authorities under which the percentage sometimes exceeds 60 or even 70 per cent.

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to consider that a fresh interpretation of the clause will be made?

The matter has been quite recently under consideration; I can see no reason for altering the terms of the regulation.

Eccles Non-provided School Transfer

asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention had been called to a resolution which was passed by the borough of Eccles education committee on the 17th February, 1909, directing the immediate transfer of 16 children, all of whom were under seven years of age on the 1st July last, from the infants' department to the mixed department of the Godfrey Ermen Memorial School; and, if so, whether a local education authority has any power to compel the managers of a non-provided school to transfer children from the infants' department to the mixed department in the middle of the school year, when, in the opinion of the head master and the head mistress of the school, such children are not from an education point of view eligible for such promotion?

I have received a report from which it appears that for some time past the Local Education Authority have been endeavouring to induce the managers to accelerate the promotion in this school, the slowness of which, in the authority's view, impeded the educational progress. These efforts did not meet with success, and the resolution referred to in the question was then passed. I am advised that such a direction to the managers is within the powers of the Local Authority under Section 7 of the Act of 1902. If the organisation of the school appeared to the Board of Education to be unsatisfactory it would be open to them, under the provisions of the Code, to require its modification. There is no general rule against the promotion of children under seven years of age.

Glamorgan County Council (New School)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, prior to the commencement of the erection of a school by the Glamorgan County Council between Llandaff and Llandaff North, he received a petition, signed by some 300 ratepayers and householders, against the erection of such school; whether, in the autumn of 1908, he received a further petition asking for an inquiry as to whether the school was required or not; whether, after he had actually sanctioned the school and the same was in course of erection, he offered to hold such inquiry if the petitioners would give a bond for the necessary security of the costs thereof; and whether this is to be taken as a typical case of the manner in which the Board of Education intends to deal with all schools to be erected under the £100,000 grant?

As there appeared to be some doubt as to whether the notice upon which the Board's original decision was given satisfied the requirements of Section 8 of the Act of 1902, a revised notice was published by the local authority in September, 1908. An appeal from 10 ratepayers was received, and the case was considered by the Board afresh. It appeared to them that on the evidence submitted the local authority had established their ease, but the appellants were informed that a public inquiry would be held if they still desired it, and if they were willing to give security for the costs. The Board are empowered to require security for costs, as a condition of holding a public inquiry, under Sub-section (4) of Section 73 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, and this power has been frequently utilised since that Act was passed, especially in cases such as this where the Board were of opinion that a decision could be given without the necessity of an inquiry. I may add that the Board are under no statutory obligation to hold an inquiry.

Is it not a fact that the offer to hold the inquiry was made after the school had been erected?

No, Sir. As far as I know, the offer to hold the inquiry was made before the school had been completed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries in order to ascertain whether the school was, in fact, not almost completed before the inquiry was held?

I do not think that will alter the position—as I have stated quite clearly—in any way.

What would be the benefit of holding an inquiry as to the necessity of the school, when the school was practically erected?

So far as I am concerned, I think an inquiry was totally unnecessary, and I have said so.

Is that the reason why the right hon. Gentleman offered the inquiry?

No, Sir. I am quite prepared to hold an inquiry, if the costs are guaranteed by those who want it. I am quite sure the inquiry is totally uncalled for.

Rector of Fyfield, Hampshire

asked the President of the Board of Education whether his attention has been called to the action of the rector of the parish of Fyfield, in the county of Hants, who has recently visited the parents of the children attending the village schools at Appleshaw and Thruxton, and tried to secure the removal of the children from those schools to the Church school at Fyfield; and, if so, what action he proposes to take to prevent the rector interfering with the present education of these children?

I have received no information as to the alleged proceedings of the rector. Fyfield school will very shortly cease to be recognised as a public elementary school, and I do not therefore think any action on the part of the Board is required.

Replying to a supplementary question by Mr. WARD,

said: I believe the school is decidedly unnecessary, because there are only 18 pupils there. If my hon. Friend wants further information, I think he should give notice.

H.M.S. "Victory" and Trafalgar

asked if it is the intention of the Admiralty to re-rig the "Victory" as she appeared at the date of the Battle of Trafalgar?

The reply to my hon. Friend's question is in the negative.

Woolwich Arsenal (Gun Mountings)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will consider the desirability of taking, with the consent of the War Office, that part of the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, which is suitable in every way for the making of gun mountings, and thus enable to be put into use for the country space, machinery, and men which were now standing idle and a loss to the State?

The question of the supply of gun-mountings is receiving the consideration of the Board of Admiralty. I would, however, remind my hon. Friend that before beginning the manufacture of hydraulic gun-mountings at Woolwich special plant would have to be installed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that both the Murray and Henderson Committees, formed by this and the last Government, have said the Arsenal was capable of doing this work?

That was not from the point of view of existing plant. It would be capable if the proper plant were installed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman have an inquiry made as to whether there is capacity there, or whether it can be easily made, for making these gun-mountings?

We have had full inquiry made, and are very well-informed as to the existing plant at Woolwich at the present time.

Is it the case that at present no Government establishment, or establishments, can turn out a battleship complete, with armaments; and if the answer is in the affirmative, is it not most desirable to do what the hon. Member for Woolwich asks?

Woolwich would not be able to turn out a battleship complete with all the armament, even if what the hon. Member asks for were given.

Would it not be a convenience that two Government establishments between them should be able to turn out a complete battleship, which at present they cannot do?

No, Sir, I do not think it would necessarily be an advantage that two Government establishments should turn out a complete battleship. It may be desirable to reserve the Government establishments for repairs, rather than for the construction of ships, and to give to private firms the main work of construction.

Would it not be an advantage for the Government to be prepared to turn out the armaments?

There is no plant at the present time at Woolwich capable of turning out the armaments.

Royal Marines and Coastguard

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state the numbers of all ranks of the Royal Marines and Coastguard service in March, 1904 and 1909 respectively; and whether it is the intention of the Government to effect still further reductions, and, if so, to what extent?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the present policy of the Admiralty is to still further reduce the Royal Marines?

Naval Fighting Line in 1912

asked what number of battleships we could place in the fighting line in 1912 in addition to 20 "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles," on the present scale of our Navy with regard to personnel and dockyards; and what number of battleships we could place in the fighting line in addition to 16 "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles"?

The number of battleships that could be placed in the fighting line in addition to 20 "Dreadnoughts" and "Invincibles" in 1912, would depend on the number of armoured cruisers, cruisers, destroyers, torpedo boats, and submarines which the exigencies of the naval service at that time may require. It must not, however, be assumed that the number of men borne in 1912 will be the same as in 1909.

Must we assume that under certain circumstances in 1912 we could not man all our battleships and armoured cruisers?

No, Sir, I do not think that that assumption ought under any circumstances to be made.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman just stated that it depends on the number of torpedo boats, destroyers, and submarines as to whether or not we could man them?

The hon. Member asked me a hypothetical question as to the number we could man in 1912 with our existing numbers. I have stated that our existing numbers will be so many in accordance with the number of cruisers we have. So that we do not confine ourselves necessarily to 128,000 in 1912.

Home Dockyards (Established Workmen)

asked what were the number of established workmen employed in the Home dockyards and victualling yards on 1st March, 1893, and on 1st March, 1909?

The total numbers on 1st March, 1893, were 6,202, and on 1st March, 1909, 6,708.

Will the right horn Gentleman say whether a decision has yet been arrived at as to the re-opening of the establishment?

I am not in a position to say anything on the subject, but I hope to be able to do so very shortly.

Atlantic and Home Fleets (Joint Exercise)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the ships of the Atlantic Fleet associated with the Home fleet will be exercised with that force as one fleet; and whether the associated ships will be under the command of the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Fleet?

The Atlantic fleet is a separate command district from the Home fleet, but opportunity will be given from time to time to exercise the associated fleets under the Commander-in-Chief of the Home fleet.

May I ask whether it would be in the discretion of the Admiralty or in the discretion of the Commander-in-Chief?

Home Fleet (Cruisers and Destroyers)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what number of cruisers and destroyers will be under the command of the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Fleet and ordinarily exercised with that fleet?

In the first and second divisions of the Home fleet there will be 14 cruisers and 48 destroyers (together with two cruisers and four scouts attached to the destroyer flotillas) in commission with full crews, and ordinarily exercised under the orders of the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Fleet. In addition, the cruisers and destroyers of the third division of the Home fleet, and the six destroyers at present manned by nucleus crews at Portland, may be exercised at the Commander-in-Chief's discretion. At the present time the number of such cruisers is 13, together with four scouts—but the number will shortly be increased to 15. The number of destroyers (including at present 30 torpedo-boats of the coastal destroyer type) is 104, but this number will increase as other destroyers are commissioned.

Are we to understand that 48 out of the 104 which are attached to the Home Fleet ordinarily exercise with the first and second divisions?

Ordinarily exercise, that is true; but attached to the Home Fleet are 104, and 48 ordinarily exercise with the first and second divisions.

Do those 48 represent first-class destroyers and not coastal destroyers?

Completion of Warships (Initial Orders)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he would state the dates when initial orders for collection of material were given, and also the actual or estimated dates of completion of the following ships, viz., the "Bellerophon," "Temeraire," "Superb," "St. Vincent," "Collingwood," and "Vanguard."

I should be glad if the hon. Member would be good enough to postpone his question till Monday, when I shall have the information to enable me to answer it.

Reform of House-Letting Bill (Scotland)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Bill for the reform of the house-letting system in Scotland will be introduced before Easter?

Perhaps I may reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Dumbartonshire at the same time. I hope that this Bill will be introduced before Easter.

Proposed New French Tariff

asked the Prime Minister whether any representations have actually been made to the French Government by His Majesty's Government on the subject of the proposed new French tariff?

I do not think it desirable to make a statement on this point while the French tariff revision is still under consideration by the French Government and Parliament. The hon. Member may rest assured that the matter is receiving the attention of His Majesty's Government.

Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House, as early as possible, of the results of any representations he may have made?

Foreign and Home Goods (Government Contracts)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the decision of the Secretary of State for the Home Department that contractors shall be invited to send in alternative tenders, specifying separately the price for foreign and home-manufactured goods in respect of the contracts for which the Secretary of State is responsible, he will cause the same principle to be applied in all Government puchasing departments?

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY
(Mr. Charles Hobhouse) (for the Prime Minister)

I think that in view of the great variety of goods which are the subject of Government contracts the question is one which must be left to the discretion of the Departments concerned.

Will the Secretary to the Treasury call the attention of other Government Departments to the action of the Home Secretary?

German Shipbuilding

asked the Prime Minister whether the declaration of intention in connection with the Imperial shipbuilding programme on the part of the German Government was conveyed by formal note to the Foreign Office through official channels, or whether the declaration in question was conveyed verbally through other Members of the Government?

The communication referred to was made verbally to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs through the usual channels of diplomatic intercourse.

asked the Prime Minister upon what date the German Government first conveyed their declaration of intention with regard to acceleration of their shipbuilding programme; if this declaration has been repeated; and, if so, upon what dates?

The definite statement referred to was made verbally on 10th March. It was to the effect that it was not the intention of the German Government to accelerate their naval programme, and that they would not have 13 "Dreadnoughts" till the end of 1912. On comparing the latter part of this statement with information of the Admiralty respecting the German naval programme we came to the conclusion that it would not include cruisers as well as battleships. By Admiral Tirpitz's speech, made, I think, on 16th of March, it was made clear that the statement did include cruisers. On 18th March we were informed that as regards two of the ships to be ordered according to the German programme in the financial year 1909–10, contracts had previously been promised to certain firms in advance, but we were given to understand that this did not in any way qualify the previous statements as to rate of construction. This statement was also made by Admiral Tirpitz about the same time. Any comments as to the bearing which this information may or should have upon our own programme I must reserve till the forthcoming debate.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if any communication of a similar tenour was made at a previous date?

Have these declarations been embodied in any despatch, as is not infrequently done, to the Ambassador?

I have no doubt they have been embodied in a despatch by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to our Ambassador at Berlin.

Do I understand the Prime Minister's statement to mean that His Majesty's Government were mistaken in supposing that there had been acceleration in German building?

Naval Strength

asked the Prime Minister, if the Government's declared policy of a naval strength equal to that of the two most powerful foreign navies plus 10 per cent, margin applies to programmes adopted abroad, so far as these can be ascertained?

I am afraid I am not quite clear as to the precise point which the hon. Member desires to elucidate. It is obvious that not only actual but projected shipbuilding must be taken into account.

Samples by Post

asked the Postmaster-General, whether his attention has been called to the refusal of his Department in February last to pass eight registered packets of raw silk through the post despatched from Milan to Messrs. Gaddum and Company, of London and Manchester, as samples of merchandise, on the ground partly that such samples were vegetable fibre and partly that they were of saleable value; whether he is aware that such samples have for years passed between Italy and this country; what officer in his Department is permitted to decide whether a bonâ fide sample is of value or not; and whether he would take steps to enable the Post Office to continue to be used for the benefit of English merchants rather than hamper them by such restrictions as appears to be the case from the above facts?

The International Postal Union regulations admit to the sample post with a few trifling exceptions only such articles as are not of saleable value. The packets in question, which contained sixteen large hanks of silk, all of one colour, all bearing the same trade number, and all apparently of the same quality, evidently had a saleable value. They were, therefore, inadmissible as samples. The regulations on the subject could not be relaxed even if desired, without the assent of the Postal Union Convention. Articles can be defaced or indelibly marked so as to deprive them of value without impairing their usefulness as specimens of goods, and they can then be sent by sample post.

Wyck Rissington (Post Office)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will grant a post office to the village of Wyck Rissington, Gloucestershire?

I am having inquiry made on the subject, and will communicate the result to my hon. Friend.

Outbreak of Smallpox, Bristol

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether an outbreak of smallpox has occurred at Bristol; whether, in spite of the advice of the Board's inspector, the board of guardians refused to make special arrangements for the vaccination of unvaccinated children and for re-vaccination; whether, on the Local Government Board themselves instructing the vaccination officer to provide special facilities, the health committee refused to permit the issue by their medical officer of bills notifying the names of the vaccinators and the places where they would attend for vaccinations; how many cases of smallpox have already occurred in the city and how many have proved fatal; and what steps the Local Government Board propose to take in the matter?

The answer as regards the first two points in the question is in the affirmative. I understand from a newspaper report of the meeting of the Health Committee on the 16th inst. that the Committee resolved that no further bills should be issued by the Medical Officer of Health, but that if necessity arose the Committee should be called together. Bills to the effect stated in the third part of the question had already been issued by the Medical Officer of Health. Up to the morning of the 20th inst., 31 cases of small-pox had occurred in Bristol and its vicinity. Three deaths are known to have occurred up to the 17th inst. I have caused one of the medical inspectors of the Local Government Board to pay two visits to Bristol and the neighbourhood owing to the outbreak, and he has conferred with the authorities and officers concerned as to the precautions which should be adopted, and various measures have been taken accordingly.

Gloucestershire Small Holdings (Ebrington)

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, when those persons resident in or near the parish of Ebrington, Gloucestershire, who made application early last year for about some 150 acres in all of small holdings are likely to be provided with the same?

The County Council hope to be able to provide these applicants with land at Michaelmas next.

Redenham Village Green

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether his attention has been called to the enclosure of the village green at Redenham, in the county of Hants; and what action he proposes to take to protect the rights of the public in this matter?

As I have previously informed my hon. Friend, we have no power to take any action in regard to this matter.

Will the hon. Gentleman's Department make any inquiries into this subject to see whether any information can be obtained?

It is useless for the Board to inquire when it has no power to act.

Small Holdings Act (Expenses)

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he can state how much of the £100,000 voted for expenses under the Small holdings Act, 1907, has been spent; and if any account of the disposal of this money is available to Members of the House?

The amount actually disbursed up to the present time is about £400. Accounts of the receipts and expenditure of the Small Holdings Account will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and laid before Parliament, with his Report thereon.

Old Age Pensions Application (Manchester)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the case of Mrs. Ellen Pimlott, of Long-sight, near Manchester, who was refused an old age pension on the ground that she received a grocery ticket of 2s. from the relieving officer when she went to him for advice regarding her son; whether he is aware that the old lady never asked for any relief and was quite ignorant that the ticket would be considered as poor law relief; and whether, under these circumstances, he can see his way to grant the pension?

I received an appeal from the claimant in this case against the decision of the pension committee. The relieving officer informed me that on 3rd April last the claimant applied to him for her sons to be compelled to assist in her maintenance. He appears to have communicated with them, but they were very dilatory in replying. On 23rd April the claimant came to him again stating that she had no food. He thereupon offered her an order for the workhouse or some groceries. She accepted the latter, and he gave her 2s. worth. In these circumstances it seems clear that she received poor relief, and hence I had no alternative but to decide that by the terms of the Act she was disqualified for a pension.

Motor Speed-Limit Prosecutions (Kingston-on-Thames)

asked the President of the Local Government. Board whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the case of 124 prosecutions for exceeding the speed-limit at Kingston-on-Thames, 56 defendants stated that they were not aware of the limit; and, seeing that similar defences were raised by several motorists who were prosecuted for exceeding the speed-limit at Bromley, in Kent, whether he will suggest to the local authorities in question the desirability of making their speed-limit signs more prominent, in order that lawabiding motorists may not unconsciously come into collision with the officers of the law?

I am aware of the answer given by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department to the hon. Member on Monday last on this subject. I am in communication with the local authorities concerned.

In reply to a question from Mr. JOYNSONHICKS,

If my hon. Friend will consult the Member for that district he will find that the signs were prominent. I have seen them myself. And the hon. Member must not forget some motorists are very fertile in the invention of excuses for avoiding notices altogether.

The right hon. Gentleman does not suggest all those motorists were fertile in their inventions?

If the hon. Gentleman would go through Kingston he would see the notices were very prominent indeed.

Grievances of Litigants

asked what is to happen in the cases in any individual jury list, either common or special, when one of the judges selected for such list goes on circuit or is detailed to sit in a divisional court for a term; and whether he will give further consideration to the remedying of the admitted grievances under which litigants now suffer from the complete breakdown of the new system.

When one of the judges selected for the jury list in London leaves for circuit or is detailed to sit in a divisional court the scheme contemplates that his place will be taken by a judge returning from circuit or by some other available judge. When that does not happen there will be some delay to suitors. As to the last part of the question, it is founded on an assumption I am not disposed to admit—viz., that the new system has completely broken down.

May I ask whether the fact of a change of judge has cut at the root of the whole idea of the scheme, namely, that the judge hearing the interlocutory applications should not hear the trial?

I do not think it is correctly described as cutting at the root of the new scheme there is no doubt if it frequently happens some adjustments will be necessary in the scheme.

G.N., G.C., and G.E. Railways Bill

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in arranging conditions with the promoters of the Great Northern, Great Central, and Great Eastern Railways Bill, he will see that sleeping accommodation shall be provided for third-class passengers wherever it is provided for first-class passengers, so as to ensure that one class of passengers shall not have preference over another class?

further asked whether in settling conditions with the promoters of the Great Northern, Great Central, and Great Eastern Railways Bill, he will provide that passengers may use return and other tickets at any time when a train may be going, subject to such regulations as the Board of Trade may approve?

I will answer my hon. Friend's two questions in connection with the Great Northern, Great Central, and Great Eastern Railways Companies Bill together. The conditions which have been arranged with the three companies are contained in the clauses which have already been circulated. I cannot, of course, anticipate the view which a Committee might take of such proposals as those referred to by my hon. Friend, but there is an obvious difficulty in imposing on particular companies obligations of this nature to which railway companies generally are not subject.

Is he aware the Board of Trade have already in the House stated that they were in favour of third-class sleepers being provided?

Yes, Sir; but if my right hon. Friend made that statement I have no doubt he meant it with regard to all railways, as we cannot impose conditions upon some railways and not impose them upon others.

Is he aware that the promise was made in regard to a railway Bill before the House?

Bankruptcy Acts (Amendment)

asked if it is intended to give legislative effect this Session to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on the Amendment of the Bankruptcy Acts?

The Board of Trade are fully alive to the importance of this matter, but I fear that I can give no pledge to pass such legislation this Session in view of other demands which the Board of Trade will have to make on Parliamentary time.

Unemployed Carpenters and Joiners

asked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the percentage of unemployed carpenters and joiners, and the value of imported manufactured house joinery, during each of the past ten years?

I will have the figures, so far as they are available, circulated with .the Votes.

Caister Accident

asked the President of the Board of Trade if "he proposes to recommend the payment out of the fund received from lighting dues, and which has shown a surplus or profit over the expenses of lighting for the past three years, of a grant towards the fund being raised for the relief of the widows and children left by the six men of the Trinity Board who recently lost their lives when engaged in blowing up a wreck lying in the fairway off Caister?

The Board of Trade have already sanctioned a proposal made by the Trinity House to pay, out of the General Lighthouse Fund, pensions to the widows and children of the unfortunate victims of this disaster, and I understand that, in addition, the Trinity House have contributed £500 out of their corporate funds to this relief fund.

Do I understand an additional sum in addition to the amount of £500 received from Trinity House will be granted?

British Museum (New Wing)

asked how many men are now employed on the new wing of the British Museum; and when the work is likely to be completed at the present rate of progress?

Thirtyfive men are at present employed at the building and 36 at the stone-yard, making 71 in all, and I understand that an additional 25 men will be employed on Monday next. The contract date for completion is 31st January, 1911, and no delay is anticipated, except on account of allowances for bad weather.

Inland Revenue Officers (Salaries)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the monthly salaries of the officers in the Board of Inland Revenue, hitherto paid on the last day of each month, are now to be paid on the first day of the following month; and, if so, whether he can state the cause for thus postponing the payment of their salaries?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the clerks in the Estate Duty Office have received notice that their salaries will in future be paid on the first day of each month instead of on the last day of the preceding month, as hitherto; whether the effect of this postponement is to deprive those clerks who have been accustomed to deposit a part of their salaries in the Post Office Savings Bank of a month's interest on all such deposits; on what days the salaries will be paid in June, when the office is closed on the first day of the month for cleaning, and in August, when the office is closed on the first and second days of the month, being Sunday and Bank Holiday; and whether he will explain why it is necessary to effect this small saving at the expense of a deserving class of public servants?

The regulations of the Board of Inland Revenue state that payment is to be made on the first day of each month in respect of the salary for the preceding month. These regulations will in future be observed in the case of all Inland Revenue officers, and not of the Estate Duty Office clerks only. Whenever the first day of a month falls on a Sunday or other dies non payment will be made on the preceding day. The change has not been made in order to effect, nor, so far as I am aware, will it effect, a saving to the public at the expense of its servants.

Is not the effect of the change to postpone the payment of one month's salary—namely, the salaries for the month of March—from one Budget to the next?

That does not necessarily follow. The actual payment would not be postponed more than one day.

Bank Holidays

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that, while provision was made by statute for transferring to the following Monday any Bank Holiday which could fall on Sunday in any year in which it so fell, no such provision existed for the case of Christmas Day, a non-business day in England and Ireland at Common Law, falling on Sunday; whether, apart from the closing of public offices and banks on three consecutive days which takes place at present whenever Christmas Day falls on Friday, Saturday or Monday, there was any objection to making Tuesday, 27th December, a Bank Holiday whenever Christmas Day fell on Sunday; whether he would make inquiries to that effect in banking and commercial circles in England and Ireland; and whether, if satisfied the change would command approval, he would give facilities for having it brought about?

So far as I am able to ascertain there does not at present exist such a general demand for this change, which would, moreover, require legislation, as would justify my right hon. Friend in making these inquiries.

Old Age Pensions (Ireland)

asked if the Treasury officials sent to Ireland to inquire into the question of the grant of old age pensions to persons who are not qualified have made any reports; and, if so, are any pensions to be suspended in consequence of such reports?

Interim reports are being received from the Inland Revenue Inspectors engaged on the investigation* The results of the investigation go to show that, in some cases, persons have obtained pensions who were not qualified in respect of age, but the number cannot yet be stated.

May I ask if any pensions have been disallowed in consequence of those reports?

Bayonet Grinders (Pay)

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that a firm named Wilkinson, who are sword and bayonet manufacturers at Acton, and who are doing work for the War Department, only pay their bayonet grinders l¼d. for grinding a bayonet, while in the Government factory at Enfield the rate of pay is 4¼d.; whether he is aware that the hours worked at Wilkinson's are 62 per week as against 48 at Enfield; and whether he will take steps to enforce the provisions of the fair wages clause, or otherwise remove this firm from the list of firms invited to tender for Government work?

This case has been investigated. The processes in use at the Royal Small Arms Factory and at Messrs. Wilkinson's factory differ materially and no comparison of rates of wages for grinding is possible. The rates paid by Messrs. Wilkinson do not appear to involve any infringement of the Fair Wages Resolution. I am unable to intervene in regard to the amount of overtime which a firm may consider necessary.

Woolwich Arsenal Workmen

asked the Secretary of State for War whether reductions are being made in the staff of workmen employed at Woolwich Arsenal; and whether 20 men have been recently discharged from either the gun or factory departments?

In the Royal Carriage Department there are a number of special men temporarily engaged for special sight work which the regular staff could not do. These men are not on the establishment, and will be discharged when the special work is completed. In the Building Works Department, in which, owing to the nature of the work, the strength necessarily varies, and for which no minimum establishment was adopted, some discharges of gas Stokers, excavators, etc., are proceeding.

Is it not the fact that that in addition to the 20 some 63 were warned on Tuesday morning, making 83, in addition to some suspensions which exist now?

My hon. Friend must give notice of such a question. All I can say is that there has been no departure in spirit from the undertaking given.

Not from the establishment. Of course, the amount of building varies from time to time, as in the case of private firms.

May I ask whether he will give an opportunity of discussing the question of whether men are to be considered on the establishment staff or not? Most of those men are not on the established staff, and never have been.

Army Horses (Purchases)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he could state, of the 762 horses purchased for the Army in the year 1908 in Great Britain, how many were purchased in Wales?

Does the right hon. Gentleman know that very good horses are bred in Wales, and particularly in Montgomery-shire, so that the purchase of one is to be regarded as very unsatisfactory?

We are always glad to see Welsh horses, but Welshmen do not bring them forward.

Gibraltar Defences

asked if the defences of the fortress rock of Gibraltar were being gradually weakened by the removal of the big guns?

No, Sir. Certain alterations are being made in the armaments with a view of modernising and strengthening the defences.

Aeroplanes (Services of Colonel Templar)

asked whether, in view of the importance for naval and military purposes of the modern developments of aeroplanes and dirigible balloons, means could now be found for utilising and retaining the services of Colonel Templar, late Director of the Balloon Factory at Aldershot, when his experience would be of value to the Army and Navy?

Colonel Templar is not now regularly employed or paid any retaining fee, but he is available for consultation should it be considered desirable to obtain his advice, and he would then be paid a fee. It is not considered desirable to revert to the former arrangement, under which he was regularly retained as consulting engineer to the balloon factory, and paid a fixed salary.

Fair Wages Clause (Alleged Noncompliance)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention had been called to the fact that, notwithstanding the fair wages clause in the Government War Office contracts, a firm of Edinburgh brewers were not conforming to the clause; and what steps he proposed to take in the matter?

No complaint has been received. If the hon. Member will kindly furnish the War Office with particulars of any case which he thinks should be investigated, inquiries shall be made.

Territorial Force (Pay)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention had been called to the fact that on Saturday, 13th March, the battery staff 2nd London Brigade Royal Field Artillery (Territorial Force), officers and non-commissioned officers, were warned to parade at 10.20 to take part in what is termed regimental tour, on the understanding that pay would be issued, but now it had been decided that no pay would be issued; and, as this was hard on men who were willing to serve in the Territorials but could not afford to lose time, would he arrange that pay should be given in such cases.

Nothing is known at the War Office of the matter mentioned in the question. Paragraph 377 of the Territorial Force Regulations lays down clearly the occasions on which pay is admissible.

Mr. Belloc and the "Spectator."

I wish to ask your ruling, Sir, in a matter of some importance to myself, and a matter on which, I think, you would desire to be asked your ruling. I desire to make a personal explanation, and I wish to know whether that personal explanation would be in order. I want to make it with regard to a hostile suggestion which has been made about me in the public Press, with, I think, a venomous intention. It does not regard anything actually said or done in this House, but it does closely regard my relations with my colleagues, and especially the relations—which are perhaps the most important part of my duties—between a private Member and one of the responsible Ministers. If the statement goes unchallenged, I maintain that it will grievously impair my position with my constituents. It is a statement in the "Spectator" that I wrote a libel, which I did not write. It is a deliberate falsehood. I want to make that statement.

The matter is somewhat enveloped in mystery at present. I understand the hon. Gentleman's position to be that he has been accused of having written something in the Press which he says he did not write.

It would be in his capacity as a literary man, and not as a Member of Parliament, I presume, that the communication, if any, was sent to the Press. It does not seem that there was any reflection on the hon. Member as a Member of Parliament; therefore, it does not really concern this House.

Does it not concern this House if a Member is accused falsely of having written a falsehood in regard to a responsible Minister? It is a very important point to me

It is extremely difficult for me, without having seen the matter upon which the hon. Member founds his question, to give any reply. But dealing with it in the most general terms, I should say that it is not a matter for this House. As everybody knows, the hon. Member fills a considerable space in the literary world, and it is in that capacity, I understand, that the attack has been made upon him, and not in his capacity as a Member of this House. Therefore it does not really concern this House.

May I not at least specify the attack, and call it what it is—a falsehood—for my colleagues to hear?

With due respect to the Chair, it does regard my personal honour. I am suggested to have written a libel against the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and then it is suggested that, through cowardice, I deleted certain words, but left the suggestion to stand rather than leave in something which might be taken before a jury. It is a lie, a malicious lie, printed in the "Spectator" under the responsibility of Mr. St. Loe Strachey.

Dockyard Discharges

, in pursuance of private notice, asked whether notices of reductions of men had been issued to the whole of His Majesty's dockyards; if so, what was the correct number of discharges; what was the number in each of the following dockyards, namely: Portsmouth, Devonport, Chatham, Sheerness, Pembroke, and Haulbowline, and whether in view of the present distress arising from unemployment all over the country he will issue instructions to cancel the order?

Although notice was given by the Prime Minister in this House on October 21st last, that the men specially engaged at the dockyards to alleviate the prevailing unemployment would be discharged on March 31st (and the condition was endorsed on their entry notes), I am happy to say that it has been found possible to retain the services of a large number of them. I will give the figures showing the increase in the numbers borne at the yards between October 24th and February 27th, and the number it is proposed to discharge. The net increase in the yards between the dates named is 3,143, the number under notice is 1,640 and 1,503 are being retained.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that there will be no further discharges in the present financial year?

I must have some regard to the capacity and the conduct of the men, and to the requirements of the dockyards.

Business of the House

There are two questions I wish to ask the Prime Minister. The first relates to the Orders of the Day. The second, second reading of the Army Bill, is down as Second Order. Of course, it will not come on until after 11 o'clock. But I understand that quite new and important matter is contained in that Bill, and that by some accident, not at all the fault of the Secretary of State for War, it was not in the hands of Members until to-day—I think not until after 12 o'clock. I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he thinks it necessary or desirable to press the second reading of that Bill to-day? My next question has relation to the future business of the House. May I ask what is going to be done next week? I think it would be convenient to ask the right hon. Gentleman also what is to be done by the House before the Easter recess? It will be, I am sure, for the convenience of Members to hear what arrangements have been come to.

As regards the Army Annual Bill I very much regret—the fact has only just been brought to my knowledge—that it was not circulated in due time. That was not the fault of the Government, and whatever may have occurred in regard to it is due to circumstances after it left the hands of the Government. As a rule, the second reading of the Army Annual Bill is treated as a more or less formal stage. There will be full opportunity for discussing the details in Committee. I hope in these circumstances that the House will be willing to let us have the second reading to-night. As regards the rest of the right hon. Gentleman's question, the business next will be: On Monday, First Order, the Motion relating to the naval policy of the Government, which stands in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, and the Second Order, the third reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill. On Tuesday and Wednesday, at the morning sittings—that is before dinner—we propose to take the second reading of the Irish Land Bill; and on Thursday the second reading of the Indian Councils Bill. I am afraid that I cannot at this moment go further.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that one day will be sufficient for the Indian Councils Bill?

Will the right hon. Gentleman take the second reading of the Prohibition of Trawling Bill before Easter?

As regards the observations of the right hon. Gentleman on the Army Annual Bill, will the Government inform us whether they will give an afternoon or an early opportunity to discuss the details of the Bill, as they do not propose to give us an opportunity at an early hour to-day to discuss it on the second reading? It is, I quite admit, on the details of the Bill rather than the second reading that discussion will arise.

We propose to give the sitting on the Tuesday of the following week for the Committee stage of the Bill.

Presentation of Bills

Mr. COOPER—Medical Acts Amendment.—Bill to regulate the administration of anæsthetics, to make regulations relative thereto, and to amend the Medical Acts.

Mr. MORTON—Sea Fisheries Regulation (Scotland).—Bill to provide for the suppression of illegal fishing by trawl vessels.

Sir GEORGE KEKEWICH—Prohibition of Vivisection.—Bill to prohibit experiments on living animals. (To be read a second time 31st March.)

Mr. KETTLE—Under-Sheriffs (Ireland).—Bill to make further provision for the appointment and tenure of office of Under-Sheriff in administrative county boroughs in Ireland. (To be read a second time 29th March.)

Order of Business

Motion made and question proposed: "That the other Government Business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Question put and agreed to.

Easter Recess

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman when the House will adjourn for the holidays?

On the Wednesday before Good Friday.

Business on Friday

Motion made and question proposed, "That the proceedings on the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill be not interrupted to-morrow at five o'clock, nor half-past five o'clock, and may be entered upon at any hour, though opposed."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

I believe I am correct in saying that this Motion has never before been made since the alteration of the Rules substituting Friday for Wednesday as the day for the early rising of the House. When Friday was substituted a distinct rule was laid down in Standing Order No. 2 as to the hours at which proceedings were to take place on that day. The Standing Orders lay it down that after 11 o'clock on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, certain business can be taken, but they say that on Friday after 5 o'clock no opposed business can be taken. Standing Order No. 3 says that at half-past 5 o'clock, whatever is going on, "Mr. Speaker shall adjourn the House, without putting any question." The reason for making a difference between the Standing Order applicable to Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and that applicable to Friday was to give facilities to Members to take advantage of the fact that Friday was an early sitting. At the time the Standing Order was altered I opposed the substitution of Friday for Wednesday, but if we are to have it substituted, I would point out that the advantage of it is that everyone knows that at a certain hour on Friday the House will adjourn. That principle, so far as I know—except at the end of the Session, when the Government have suspended the Standing Orders relating to sittings of the House—has been maintained, and now for the first time the right hon. Gentleman has come down to propose this Motion. I wish explicitly to state that the Bill which he proposes to take on Friday is not likely to occupy a very large amount of time, and if it were put down on Monday or Wednesday, I do not think there would be very much opposition to it, and the right hon. Gentleman would perhaps attain his object as well in that way as by the method he proposes. I do not rise to make any objection to this Motion on account of the Bill which he proposes to take to-morrow. I rise to oppose it because it creates a precedent. The majority of Members may say that the Bill does not require very much discussion, but then when some Government Bill which we do think requires to be discussed comes before the House I can quite imagine that the Patronage Secretary or someone who succeeds him—for this does not apply to one side of the House; very likely it will be applied by both sides—will arrange to take it on Friday by suspending the Five o'Clock Rule, and the consequence will be that the Bill which requires discussion will be rushed through. The Government Whips, knowing that Members will not attend on Friday, will think it a good opportunity for getting the Bill through. On these grounds I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to press this Motion. I do not know what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition will say in regard to this suggestion. I hope he will be rather disposed to take the Bill without discussion than to have this Motion passed.

As an appeal has been made to me, perhaps I may say one or two words. I have not given very much consideration to the question. I understand the Government are bound to get the Committee stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill before Monday. That is a legal obligation, and the question is how that legal obligation is to be carried through most conveniently to the House and with the least danger of creating what my hon. Friend is most justly afraid of—namely, an evil precedent for the future. My hon. Friend's suggestion is that the Bill should be carried through by consent on Friday without this Motion. Well, the only objection to that—and it is a very serious objection—is that nobody can control, no matter who he is—whether the right hon. Gentleman who leads the House, or myself, or the Whips on either side of the House, or the Leaders in any section of any part of the House—the action of any individual Member. It is impossible to do that. One man can come in, and he has only to say "I object," and the whole thing breaks down. A Saturday sitting would be the worst of all precedents. A Government are much more likely—especially a flagitious Government like the present—to choose to sit through Saturday and Sunday until Monday for their purpose. This is a Bill which cannot be discussed on the Committee stage on a Friday afternoon. That is according to the rules of the House.

Mr. Gibson Bowles failed in that attempt. I think that the Committee stage of the Appropriation Bill really cannot be discussed, and therefore I venture to suggest, with the view of preventing the misuse of the powers of this uncontrollable and unscrupulous Administration, that it would be safer to support the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman than in having a Saturday sitting with business over which we should have no control whatever.

I am very well content to leave the case where the right hon. Gentleman has left it. The alternative is, as he suggests, a Saturday sitting, in which more harm might be done to the causes which the hon. Baronet has in his peculiar charge than by this comparatively innocent procedure, which is confined to an undebatable stage of the Consolidated Fund Bill. I could show precedents set by Conservative Governments, but I can assure the hon. Baronet that we shall not regard this as a precedent.

The House is very jealous of parting with any precedent with regard to its financial business. My right hon. Friend initiated the reform of specifying a particular day in each week of Supply, but, with that exception, very little reform of our financial procedure has been effected. All I want to call the attention of the House to is that the financial rule with which we are dealing gives no opportunity of discussion. We can derive no advantage from it, and it places us in the situation in which we now are. The right hon. Gentleman opposite has expressed his desire of dealing with some other rules of procedure, and I hope he will consider the whole of our financial procedure so as to give us proper opportunity of dealing with our financial procedure with the view of saving some of our time.

Question put and agreed to.

Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill

Motion made and Question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a second time."

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order I wish to ask you, sir, whether it will be open to hon. Members to raise at this point the question of the use by the contractors of foreign granite at Rosyth.

Prima facie, I should say no. There is nothing in the Vote on Account in respect of the use of granite at Rosyth.

South Africa

I desire to call the attention of the Government to a point connected with South Africa. I desire to refrain altogether from any criticism of the South African Governments. Any criticisms which I have to make will be against His Majesty's Government, who I hold to be responsible for any matters of which we have to complain on the present occasion. I wish to recognise, as I have done before, that there is a great improvement in the general state of South Africa. That great improvement has been largely due to the wisdom and good sense of the leaders of both races. Their efforts on behalf of unity in South Africa have been forwarded and have been largely aided by a band of young workers who have brought their enthusiasm, sound judgment, practical wisdom, and laborious efforts into the case. But there are two clouds in what is otherwise a clearing sky. Those two clouds arise, in the first place, from the condition and the prospects of the settlements in the Orange Colony, and in the second place from the retrenchment of certain officials, both in the Transvaal and the Orange Colony.

I think both of these clouds might be dispersed by a little courage and sacrifice on the part of His Majesty's Government. Let me briefly recall the details of the situation in the Orange Colony settlements. The House will remember that a loan of £35,000,000 was guaranteed by this House soon after the conclusion of the war. That £35,000,000 formed the material basis on which the great work of reconstruction in South Africa has been founded. A portion of that guaranteed loan—£3,000,000—was dedicated to the purpose of land settlement in the Transvaal and the Orange Colony. Not the whole of that sum so dedicated has been spent. Half a million of it has been diverted to other purposes. Of that £35,000,000, a million and a half has been devoted to land settlement in the Orange Colony. Various members of different colonies have been settled in the Orange Colony, not merely British, but Canadians and people from Natal and the Cape Colony. It was believed, and I believe, that the establishment of these settlements has produced good. They were given very naturally in the first place as rewards for services during the war. I believe that some 90 per cent, of those who settled in the Orange Colony did good service in the war. I do not think that anyone will deny that such settlements have resulted in the stability of the country; and I think it will be recognised, and by none more than His Majesty's Government, that there is a very great difficulty—an elementary difficulty—in South African politics, namely, the estranging distinction of races which is coincident with the distinction of employment. That estrangement in the Transvaal, and certainly I believe to a considerable degree in the Orange Colony, has been mitigated by the foundation of these agricultural communities. Agriculture itself is the least aggressive and the least competitive of all interests. It is not merely the most ancient and the most honourable of occupations, but it is conducted by those who take part in it with greater amity than prevails in any other industry. If we look at the example of the past there is the example of the success of these agricultural settlements in 1820 in Cape Colony. There has been a successful land settlement in Canada and a successful land settlement in New Zealand, and I believe that many of those who have distinguished them- selves in the last few days, and who have offered to us assistance in so noble and generous a manner have descended from the land settlers in that country. The point was never more tersely or more succinctly put than when the late Under-Secretary for the Colonies said in the House of Commons:— waste their time in remaining in that country unless they are sure of some relief. They will not wait until 1911. They will go over to Rhodesia, or East Africa, or Canada, and they will substantially take with them all that they can, and they will try to start once more, under perhaps more grateful and happier circumstances. I venture to think that such loss to the Orange River Colony would not only be a profound misfortune to South Africa and to the growing unity of the two races, but it would reflect discredit upon the Government that I should be sorry to see reflected on any British Government in such connection. Let me mention this one circumstance, which I think is not without importance in considering the case, that the Orange Colony settlers have, in point of fact—and it must have been foreseen when a responsible Government was granted—no representation in fact, though they have in theory, in the Orange River Colony Assembly. Under these circumstances, and considering that this settlement was founded first as a reward of service, and next with a definite intention of unifying Boer and Briton in agricultural association, and knowing that these settlers have, in fact, no representation at all in the Parliament created in the Orange River Colony, His Majesty's Government surely have a very great responsibility. I think, also, that they have materials from which—I wish to say this entirely without offence—they have a legitimate opportunity of exercising pressure. They have remitted in granting self-Government to the Orange River Colony as well as to the Transvaal an absolute contribution of £5,000,000, which was supposed to be its contribution to the war indemnity. That is the first point on which I think they stand upon strong grounds. Next, the Orange River Colony has proposed to raise a loan at the present moment of £1,500,000, and I understand the guarantee of His Majesty's Government in this House is sought to that loan. The objects of that loan are, among other things—I put it quite broadly—the relief of agriculture and the expenditure of £750,000 in that object by giving assistance to poor farmers, owners, etc. His Majesty's Government have themselves expressed the view that these settlers are entitled to sympathetic administration and to sympathetic treatment. At the time that His Majesty's Government were proposing to confer responsible Government on the Orange River Colony the late Under-Secretary for the Colonies said in this House:— security can His Majesty's Government give to these settlers that relief will be given them in 1912, or before, in the condition in which they find themselves. They have the strongest possible claim, and I think his Majesty's Government, considering the words they have used on their behalf before, should recognise it. It is not merely an economic advantage that these matters should be settled on fair, reasonable, and generous terms, but it is political advantage of the highest importance. It is an obstacle, and a serious obstacle, a grievance, and a serious grievance, which must tend to impair the unification of the races which is happily proceeding as a result of the great Convention at Durban. We are under the strongest obligations and responsibilities to these men, and if the Orange River Colony itself should fail to give that assistance, which I trust, owing to the example of the Transvaal, they will be able to give, then, I hope, the Under-Secretary will be able to give us an assurance that His Majesty's Government will themselves undertake the necessary, and no more than absolutely necessary, measures to support and relieve these settlers. I have only a few words more to add upon the second matter, upon which I want some information from the Government. I mean the case of the retrenched officials of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony. I have always admitted—there has been no dispute about it—that retrenchment was necessary from the establishment as it stood at the time of the Crown Colony Government. That establishment was set up at a time when there was an enormous burden of work to be done, and when work had to be done under immense pressure, and when any slackness or failure would result in actual loss of life or property. It was, therefore, right that the establishment should be on a full basis, and that no economy should be used when men and women's lives were the subject of the charge of the Administration. There are two classes of cases; there are those who have been retrenched and who have had a definite promise of the representative of the King that their places should be permanent, and there are the cases of those who at the time of their transfer to the service of the Transvaal enjoyed pensionable positions, either in the Colonies or at home. I understand there is some dispute or controversy between us and the Government of the two Colonies as to whether they are responsible for the pen- sions of those or whether His Majesty's Government is responsible. That is a matter which, it is obvious, ought to be settled on behalf of the officials—not by themselves, not by the law courts, but by His Majesty's Government, in conjunction with the Governments of the two Colonies.

I wish then to ask this categorical question: I ask in distinct terms that in case His Majesty's Government are satisfied that a promise was given by the representative of the King that the positions taken by these officials should be a permanent one—I ask for a distinct pledge that in every such case there should be given full compensation in money, or else a reasonable equivalent in some other employment; and I ask for a distinct pledge with regard to others that the hollow pretence or suggestion that these retrenched officials (I am speaking of the second class) should have recourse to the law courts against either the Government of the Colony or against His Majesty's Government should be altogether abandoned. It is clearly an illusory remedy—and an illusory remedy to which I do not think these officials should be left. I repeat that I ask for a distinct pledge that in any such cases they themselves, if it is necessary to decide the matter in a court of law, will undertake, on behalf of the officials, the responsibility. I venture to think that these two demands that I make are the absolute minimum—they are the least possible demands to be made in justice and having regard to the dignity and good faith of this country. I myself have seen men—officials—who did not fall within the two categories I have mentioned—who have not merely fought all through the war, but who have done admirable service in good positions afterwards—put to the personal humiliation of having to ask for my assistance—assistance which, in cases, I have been only too glad to give. I say it is not right, it is utterly unreasonable, that men who have done gallant service in the Transvaal—men who have filled good and responsible positions there—should be put to the humiliation of having to ask private individuals for actual relief for their personal and immediate necessities. When I heard yesterday a claim made from these benches with regard to the proposed railway amalgamation, that by reason of those amalgamations the employés should not suffer loss, I thought that I had a right, and I think now that I have a right, to claim the assistance of the hon. Members who sit below there on behalf of the men of whom I am now speaking. Those hon. Members must see the crushing, ruinous loss which has fallen upon the faithful servants of the King merely as a result of the change which has taken place in the Government of the South African Colonies.

I trust that I have clearly put these points upon which I feel very warmly, and upon which I can give very full particulars when it is required by His Majesty's Government. I trust I have put these points in a spirit of moderation; in a spirit which looks not to supporting any differences which may exist in South Africa, but which looks earnestly for the removal of grievances as an incentive to the forces of union which are happily prevailing at the present moment. On the character of the reply which we get from His Majesty's Government, I think a great deal will depend. If they take a reasonable and generous attitude, I think two of the most real obstacles which exist at the present moment in South Africa will disappear; and that the bitterness of the losses of these officials, which has really been cruel and most undeserved, will at any rate be partially cleared away.

The questions which my right hon. Friend has raised have been raised frequently in the House before; and I am bound to say that the replies which have been given both before responsible government was granted and since concerning these two main question, cannot be said by the most ardent friends of the Government to be wholly satisfactory. Both sides of the House on both these questions have been practically united. Before I add any details or attempt to support my right hon. Friend in the contentions which he has put forward I would like to say one word on the opening sentences of his speech. He said that at the present time we are happily continuing a new era in South Africa. He has pointed out that the leaders of both races, and I may say also the leaders of both parties—that is to say, the old progressive party in the Transvaal and the present Government in power there, together with the Bond in Cape Colony and the Orange River Colony, have all united in producing the draft of the convention which, if it is carried out, will undoubtedly make South Africa one of the great sister nations under the flag within the Empire. May I add this to what my right hon. Friend has said: That not alone is the present situation due to leaders of thought in political life in South Africa. The present happy condition of things is due; and a great debt is due to Lord Milner, who, in the most difficult of conditions by which a statesman was ever faced, was able by his ability, no matter what arguments may have been used against it; no matter what accidents have told against it—to lay such a foundation of commercial prosperity, of national hope to those who are now responsible for the movement of political thought towards confederation, that the hon. and gallant Member who represents the Colonial Office in this House; the hon. and gallant Member who has opposed Lord Milner's policy in the past in one direction will agree with me to-day when I say that the earnestness of purpose, the elevation of principle, the absolute devoted patriotism which marked Lord Milner's career in South Africa have made possible the event upon which South Africa is congratulating itself today—and that is the possibility of becoming a great nation under the Crown.

My right hon. Friend has said in the country and in this House that we who supported Lord Milner in the policy of introducing Oriental labour into the mines of South Africa have never had any reason to retire from the position we took up. The position we took up was this: Not that we loved Oriental labour, not that we wished to see the racial problem of South Africa enter into another racial problem—that we did not wish; but we did realise that if South Africa was to be rehabilitated financially and commercially, it had to be done by immediate process. There could be no waiting. The whole commercial and industrial structure was in danger, and it could be only by the immediate action (and that immediate action was taken by my right hon. Friend) of supplementing the coloured labour of South Africa by other labour from outside, that financial and commercial stability could be maintained. That is the position which we took up. It was a position which we believe was justified in the circumstances, and after all that has passed since, I am firmly convinced that we were justified. The commercial prosperity which South Africa enjoys up to a point to-day, is due to the stability which was given to financial and commercial institutions in South Africa, by that supplementary labour which was considered necessary, which has performed its office, and which has disappeared or is disappearing. But let me say that we are not yet finished with the solution of the labour question of the mines of the Transvaal. The question which has come up before will come up again. The native labour, which has been proved insufficient in the past, will be proved insufficient again. The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, at a request on the part of the Government of .the Transvaal for assistance from outsiders from Mozambique, turned it aside cleverly —it was done with great skill; but the request was made, and there has been a sufficiency of labour lately, largely due to the fact that development work has been stopped in a great many places, and enough of labour has been set free for the mines. I do not want to enter into that question. I only refer to it for the one reason of showing that out of the commercial and financial stability—the foundations of which were laid by Lord Milner and by His Majesty's Government —has flowed a stream—I will not say of union—but a stream which has led to a better understanding between the two races, and that better understanding never could have come had there not been commercial prosperity behind it. Having said so much upon that question, may I refer for a few moments to the question of the retrenched Civil servants in the Transvaal? This is a question upon which my Friends opposite and I have had a great many contentions, and more than once have been in danger almost of destroying agreeable political relations.

Let me say, as a fact, that I do not think that the situation regarding the retrenched officials is very much better than when we Drought the question first before the House. So far as I can understand, the present Government, with, I am bound to say, the active and sympathetic co-operation of the hon. Gentlemen opposite over a course of six months, have given compensation to something like 50—between 46 and 50—civil servants who have been retrenched. But there remains a vast body of civil servants who have been retrenched; altogether something like 3,842, including civil servants proper and those who have been dismissed from railways, from the constabulary, from the town police and the volunteers. Of these 3,800 odd the civil servants proper represent 455, and out of that number of civil servants, the Government, fulfilling its obligations —its moral obligations, and, in some cases, its technical and legal obligations—gave from 46 to 50 people appointments. Let me say regarding that that I understand the difficulties with which this Government have been confronted, in dislocating the Colonial service in order to give men from outside appointments within the boundaries of the Colonial service oversea and in this country. I understand the difficulty, and I understand how men inside the Colonial service may very properly object strenuously to men being brought in from outside. Who is responsible for that? You may say that we on this side urged you to do something, but if the Government had taken the proper course at the beginning there would have been no necessity for us to make an appeal for men who have gone about the streets of London, many of them penniless, most of them having spent every penny they had in getting home, some of them working their way on steamers and their families travelling second or third class in order to find refuge again in this country, where no positions are open to them. The difficulty lies here, and if the Government had fulfilled its proper obligations they would have made such compensation to the members of the Civil Service retrenched in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, that we should not have been obliged to ask for their intervention in individual cases on behalf of retrenched civil servants who find themselves stranded here. I venture to say that an average of £70 a head represents the compensation paid to the retrenched civil servants in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony. I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman whether he himself considers that a fair compensation for the shortest term of service under any Government? The fact of the matter is that all the civil servants who were appointed, whether they were appointed with the idea that they were only to be temporary, or whether they were appointed with the idea that they were to be permanent and pensionable, were convinced and were assured in individual cases that the Government would not give responsible government and that a Constitution would not be granted without sufficient protection being given to the members of the Civil Service of both Colonies. They had a right to expect it. I thought I had here a letter which I read before this House from a high school master in the Transvaal. In this letter, addressed to me, he said he was told by a representative of the Colonial Office that it was the custom, when responsible government was granted to a Crown Colony, to give compensation, or in other words, to protect the interests of the civil servants employed in the service of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, some steps would be taken.

The civil servants employed in those Colonies were appointed by this Government—by the predecessors of the right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Every Government is bound in regard to its civil servants by the acts of its predecessors, and if there is one thing which has made the British Government the pride of the British people, it has been the loyalty with which succeeding Governments have stood by the members of their Civil Service and by the acts of previous Governments in relation to their civil servants, and my complaint is that this Government have not stood by the acts of the late Government, nor stood by the traditions of their offices and the long traditions handed down for generations in the great Departments of the State. £70 per head was the average given to these civil servants, and they had to pay their passage down to Cape Colony or to Durban, and their passage home. They have had to sacrifice perhaps the little furniture they possessed, and their position is, to say the least of it, extremely painful, because the hon. and gallant Gentleman and the Government know full well that it is less difficult for any man getting out of a position in a private commercial firm to get a fresh place than it is for a Government official. There seems always to be a prejudice against Government officials, as though the rigidity of the routine prevented them from exercising that initiative which is so necessary in private commercial enterprises. I do not say that that is true. I believe that our civil servants are the most highly trained and expert body of servants in the world, but the prejudice exists, and no Government have the right to allow its civil servants, to whom it is bound by every traditional honour, to lapse into the position in which the majority of retrenched officials of these two Colonies find themselves to-day. I asked in this House for £150,000 for these retrenched officials, and put my question across the floor of this House.

I am sorry the hon. and gallant Gentleman does not appear to remember it, because I asked on several occasions, and of this I am certain, that if he were to take the independent opinion of his own civil servants in his Department to-day he would find that they, like all other civil servants, would say that the only solution of this great problem was the granting of a large sum of compensation for these dispossessed men. What has been done to men in the Transvaal may be done to men in England, and you have no more right to treat men employed under the Government of the Transvaal less well than you treat men employed in Downing-street to-day. I say, if we had set apart at least £150,000 for the purpose of granting extra compensation for these entrenched civil servants, we should have done the least that could have been done under the circumstances. I do not want to labour the point, but I do ask those who were so anxious to pay British money in connection with Dinizulu, or to pay it on account of a political principle for the return of Chinamen to China, not to leave their own civil servants unprovided for in the day of their trouble. That to my mind has always been the position I have taken up. I have never receded from it, and I say to-day that this Government ought to give £150,000—that flea-bite—to settle this matter. [Laughter.] Well, it is a flea-bite compared with some forms of extravagance of which the Government have been guilty. But I do not want to be controversial, and, honestly, I am saying what I think when I say that I think the sum of £150,000 is necessary. It is infinitely little if the question of the honour of this country is concerned.

I regret that the hon. Member who exercises such an influence in regard to this debate—I regret that his judgment has arrived at the conclusion that the honour of this country is not at stake in regard to the compensation, which ought to be granted to people who have served His Majesty. I would point out that in many cases they were employed directly, although under Crown Colony rule.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to explain. I believe most firmly that the honour of this country is not concerned in paying inflated and exaggerated compensation.

I think the hon. Gentleman will alter his opinion on reflection. I think the honour of this country is concerned in preserving those rules which previous Governments have always preserved towards civil servants. I ventured, when I before urged the views which I hold with regard to the retrenched civil servants of the Transvaal and of the Orange River Colony, to point to the view of the Ridgeway Committee on this matter. I am sure no one will accuse Sir West Ridgeway and the members of that Committee of being prejudiced in any way towards the point of view which members of the House on this side take. It is common knowledge that the Ridgeway Committee urged strongly that proper safeguards should be taken both in regard to the Transvaal and the Orange River Colony. The Government took their advice in regard to almost every other particular, but they left this one question undealt with, and this one problem unsolved, and the Constitutions were granted to both Colonies, without any conditions being made or any safeguards being imposed on the part of this Government, on behalf of the civil servants in these Colonies. May I say a word about the settlers? That is another subject which has engaged the sympathies of Members on both sides of the House during successive considerations of this problem. I had hoped that the hon. and gallant Gentleman who is occupying the Treasury Bench now would have been enabled to announce to the House that these new loans of £1,500,000 offered an opportunity for safeguarding the position of those settlers, who in good faith took up land which, I think, probably was considerably over valued, through no fault of their own, and, indeed, through no fault of the Government at home; but through the accident of circumstances and the lack of knowledge of the real value of land in both Colonies, which knowledge was possessed, naturally, more by the Boer portion of the population than by the British. The settlers took up their land in good faith. They expended at least £500, and in some cases I should think probably £750 or £l,000, and they struggled against the pest and pestilence and famine and the difficulties which always exist in a new country, and exist more in South Africa than in any other country—difficulties due to the climate. If there is any one country where agriculture has to be learnt all over again it is on the part of a settler leaving this country for South Africa, the conditions are so peculiar and the climatic difficulties so great. These settlers have discovered that, as the years have gone on, safeguarded as they have been by the Land Board, which was established under pressure from both sides of this House, which leaves them for a certain number of years with a sympathetic Administration, when the term of that sympathetic Administration ceases, if they have not paid up to the full all their instalments they are liable to be turned out. I do not want to quote the very painful statements which have been made by newspapers in the Orange River Colony of how the land will revert again to the original owners. I do not want to press these unpleasant statements too strongly upon the attention of the Government or the House. If we could only get from this Government the promise that in granting this loan of £1,500,000 they will see to it that a certain sum. £70,000, £80.000, or £90,000, is set apart in order to relieve the settlers, by granting them certain sums which will cover improvements without revaluation—if we could be assured of that I am certain these settlers, who have struggled under such tremendous difficulties, would have the courage and the hope to go on. If they are not relieved I am afraid what will happen will be that they will turn their faces towards Rhodesia or elsewhere. It is not the kind of threat that I like to think would be applied by the settlers themselves, and I do not like to suggest it myself. To think that in the Orange River Colony, where these settlers have, established very agreeable relations with their Dutch fellow-subjects, their position will be made so difficult that they must turn their faces from this land which they hoped to make their home, is by no means an agreeable reflection for anyone who cares for our Imperial development or the closer union of race in that country. You will never get real racial fusion in the Orange River Colony or in the Transvaal until you have a British agricultural population there. Otherwise you will have the old disproportion—the town British as against the country Dutch. What you want is something which has happened in Cape Colony—a commingling of the two races, which makes in the end for an understanding and possibilities, in course of time, as in Canada, of a real fusion.

French Canada is an example of what has not been achieved. You had there a solid agricultural population for a century and a half, and it was only when industry invaded the agricultural solidarity of French Canada that the racial differences began really to disappear, and since the invsion by industry into agricultural and French Canada a new feeling has been born, and the late celebrations there were only possible because of the new feeling which has been engendered by the commingling of the two races, each representing certainly different aspects of the national life, commercially and industrially, but still working together. In the Orange River Colony and in the Transvaal the Dutchman will only understand the Britisher when he is brought in daily contact with him in his agricultural associations and in the natural exchange which goes on between farm and farm, and it is because of that—because I consider the greatest danger to the future of South Africa is that these settlers should be obliged by the force of circumstances to turn their faces from the Orange River Colony or from the Transvaal—that I say it is worth this Government making a very strong and very courageous effort to produce out of this guarantee loan some gift—it is only, after all, compensation for over-valuation—which is honourably and fairly due to these settlers who will not get the revaluation. I am afraid it is too large an enterprise to ask for a re-valuation of all the farms of the Orange River Colony, for that is what it would have to be, but since inequalities exist, since the pressure upon these settlers is so great, let me beg of the Government and of my hon. Friend, who has never allowed, at any rate, any controversial feeling to enter into this question of agricultural settlement, to see to it that this minimum claim made by the settlers shall have due recognition on the part of His Majesty's Government. If you could do that much you would be performing a really great Imperial service, because you would be conserving this little agricultural population, which has been the source of inter-racial amity rather than a source of inter-racial disturbance. It is because I believe I am pleading for a larger understanding and a better hope that I have spoken as long as I have, and I hope my words will not be entirely without effect.

On the general situation in South Africa I think it is not desirable that much should be said. It ought to be a source of satisfaction to all parties in the House, however much they may differ on other points connected with the situation, to feel that at last there is something like a settled policy in South African politics. I do not think the Government need take much satisfaction to themselves, nor the Liberal Press, for the state of affairs that is now taking place. Never in the history of party Government has party Government been directed through more cynically selfish channels than by the present Government over the conduct of South African affairs. I use the term "cynically selfish" because the whole object of the Government policy have been selfish in the sense that it has been intended, first, to get them out of difficulties which they got themselves into in the past, and, secondly, to avoid creating difficulties in the future. There is hardly a single part of their policy which can be justly said to take a broad view of the Imperial position in South Africa. Nor do I think much thanks are due to the Liberal Press for their contribution towards the settlement that has now taken place. I think the somewhat unctuous satisfaction of papers like the "Westminster Gazette" might well have been avoided.

We had last Session and in preceding Sessions a great many debates on the subject of the civil servants, and a great many questions were addressed to the Government, and I recognise from the first that the Under-Secretary felt, at any rate to some extent, sympathy with the position of these unfortunate men; but from the beginning of that controversy until the present time neither he nor the Government have done one single thing which could fairly be interpreted as showing a desire to help these unfortunate people. The words were words of sympathy, but in his deeds he has not carried that sympathy out. Although it is now late in the day, although the interest taken in the question is rapidly evaporating, although the case of the unfortunate civil servants in South Africa is almost forgotten by the people of this country, it is not yet too late for the hon. Gentleman to do something to improve their position. I believe an attempt was made in the course of last year to find employment for a few of these civil servants who lost their appointments as a result of the alteration of government in South Africa, but there is still an enormous number who are out of employment, and of these certainly 99 per cent. are in every way deserving of consideration by the Government. The hon. Baronet suggested that at any rate £150,000 might be given as compensation to these men for the loss of their employment. These discharged civil servants number over 3,000 gentlemen.

I think that the House should realise what the policy which has been carried out in South Africa inevitably means. It creates a sense of insecurity in the minds of our civil servants in all parts of the Empire. Take the analogous case of the civil servants in Egypt or the Sudan. Suppose hon. Members below the Gangway, who are pledged in many cases to the evacuation of Egypt and the Sudan, came into power, what security would there be that the civil servants in these countries would not be treated in the same way as those in South Africa? Apart from the great hardship which was involved in many individual cases, there is a much broader issue involved; for, what has happened will have a deplorable effect on the Civil Service of the Empire as a whole. These civil servants are men who have to bear enough hardship at present; they have to be absent from home for many years, the best years of their lives; they are subject to many difficulties and privations, and often they have to live in most unhealthy places. But one of the great merits of the Service formerly was that the man knew that he was serving a people and a Government who would keep faith with him, and, whatever his difficulties, would do their best to support him in all circumstances. That feeling has been absolutely shattered by what has taken place in South Africa. None of us blame the Dutch people in South Africa. Probably if we were placed in the same position as they, we should have done the same thing. But the Government, by their cynical disregard of these men in South Africa, in order to obtain the political support of their less responsible adherents at home, have entered on a course which must have a disastrous effect on the Colonial Service of the Empire as a whole, and which has inflicted many individual cases of hardship on as fine a body of civil servants as are to be found in the world.

I would ask the Under-Secretary to turn his attention to what I may call the Cinderella of Protectorates—Nyassaland. My hon. and gallant Friend is aware that this Protectorate has been depending for its development on the establishment of railway communication with the coast. Until recently it was absolutely cut off from the rest of the world. He is also aware that recently the Shire Highlands Railway was constructed by a private company. The Colonial Office has been fortunate enough to get this railway constructed entirely by a private company without any expense to the State or to the British taxpayer. He knows how difficult and how expensive the project was to carry out. I am glad to take this opportunity of saying that none of those difficulties have been due to any action by the Colonial Office, but that those concerned in this enterprise have had the most courteous and polite attention for all concerned, and from none more than from the hon. and gallant Gentleman himself. But now that the railway has been completed it is evident that it does not complete communications between Nyassaland and the rest of the world, because there is an immense long stretch of land and some unnavigable river between the end of the railway and the coast; and under the Convention with Portugal, which deals with the Zambesi and its affluents, of which Shire is one, I understand that either Power is willing to allow the other to construct railways over its territories. I do not know whether under those circumstances the right of a British company, for instance, to lay a line on the Portuguese side of the river would be the subject of further negotiations, or whether under the Zambesi Convention it might be taken for granted, so that the necessary steps might be taken. This is an important consideration for the development of this distant but very interesting part of Africa, which I believe has a great agricultural future in store for it.

Another matter concerning the future of the Protectorate is the question of emigration. Is it contemplated in future that emigration from this part of Africa to the South shall be resumed? I confess one can only hope not, because of the very serious death rate that has resulted whenever the inhabitants of this part of Africa have left for labour in the south. At the same time there is a problem to be solved, because now that the railway of which I speak has been completed large numbers of labourers who found remunerative occupation on this line are now without occupation in their own country, and require to find occupation elsewhere. It seems, then, desirable that such emigration as may be possible without endangering the lives of these people should be arranged between Nyassaland and other parts of Africa; and I believe that if the Colonial Office gave the matter attention and gave instructions to the Governor of Nyassaland it might be possible to devise some means whereby emigration could be controlled and regulated so that these people might be able to leave their own country for labour elsewhere, and come back with their earnings, the spending of which would contribute largely to the prosperity of what I have described as the Cinderella of the Protectorates. This is a matter as to which my hon. and gallant Friend will, I hope, communicate with the Governor of Nyassaland; and it may stimulate his interest in the matter if I mention that there is now in Nyassaland considerable depression and want of labour, owing in part to the completion of the railway, as well as to other causes.

The hon. Member for Gravesend, in his speech, touched upon the new draft Constitution. As one who has been concerned in administration in somewhat similar conditions, I cannot see that the double capital is likely to be a real obstacle to the efficient working of the Constitution. In India it is usual for the Government and the provincial Governments to have two capitals, which really correspond to what would happen in this case. The dislocation of business is quite slight; an annual migration becomes a matter of course; and some of the staff remain constantly in one or other of the two capitals. For my part I believe that the change puts new life into the Administration, prevents things from getting into a rigid groove, through the constant similarity of surroundings, and I also believe that it has an inspiring effect upon the mainsprings of administration. Nor can anyone accustomed to administration in the Indian Empire be afraid of the recognition of two languages as official, when they have been accustomed to the recognition of something nearer 20, not as official, but, at any rate, as frequently used in the conduct of business. I think the fact that this admirable Constitution has been drafted goes far to justify the confidence of His Majesty's Government in the action which they took with regard to the Constitution in South Africa, and as to which I freely confess that I was one of those who thought that it could not possibly work. It was my belief that it went too far. I thought it a dangerous experiment, and I take this opportunity of saying that it has succeeded beyond my greatest expectations. I would never have ventured upon it had I been in a position of authority to embark upon it. The great wisdom of the new draft is proved, I think, by nothing so much as by the fact that it proposes to allow free play to the electoral idiosyncrasies of the different Colonies, and there is no effort to enforce the Cape franchise on other Colonies, for which, I believe, it is utterly unsuited.

The hon. Member for Gravesend referred to Lord Milner, and I should like to associate myself on this side of the House with the appreciation of that statesman to which he gave utterance. I remember on one occasion after Lord Milner had left Egypt, a boat with several people went up the Nile. They met with a sheik on one of the banks. Instead of paving any attention to them, he asked, "Where is Milner?" They said, "He is not here." He asked, "Where is he? Shall I see him again?" They asked, "What is your peculiar interest in Lord Milner?" The answer was, "Lord Milner is one who loves his fellow men." This was a spontaneous tribute from an Arab. I think it one of the ironies of politics that a man who produced this impression upon Orientals should be the man to be haled before this House as if he were a cruel oppressor of Orientals because he merely followed the traditional practice of his class, and accepted responsibility for a really trivial occurrence for which probably he was not really responsible. I cannot help taking the opportunity to say that, because I heard myself, with the greatest regret at the time, the attacks which were made just below me on the statesman to whom I think we are so greatly indebted for the excellent turn which affairs have taken in South Africa. I do not for a moment exempt from that the credit due to His Majesty's Government, because I think it must be allowed that they showed great courage, foresight, and knowledge of the problem in daring to go so far as they did at such a time. But it must be remembered that success could not have attended the policy had the ground not been prepared by the sympathetic and wise administration of Lord Milner, to whom the hon. Member paid a tribute with which I have the greatest pleasure in associating myself.

For my part, I should like to express—I am only speaking for myself—my deep regret at the frequent, and, as I think, wholly undeserved attacks which are made in this House upon Colonial administration. I cannot but think that day after day—we must all sympathise with people in trouble—the sympathy which has been shown in respect to Dinizulu was actuated by animosity against the Natal Government, which, rightly or wrongly—I think rightly—thought it had ground to doubt his loyalty. But in any case, it ought to be allowed, when our fellow-countrymen are engaged in a prosecution of this kind, that it cannot be right that the occasion should be taken to display the most active sympathy, not with those who are endeavouring to carry on the Administration—a few amongst many natives; a few who are responsible for the lives and fortunes of their fellow countrymen, and also responsible for carrying on the Administration, I say it cannot be other than deplorable that such an opportunity should be taken in this House for a display of open distrust. I cannot say that it is not actual dislike of the Administration, which is doing its best under difficulties—difficulties which are only known to those who have been in the habit of administering British government amongst natives, and who are outnumbered by tens of thousands to one. I cannot think my views will have any great effect—I wish they had—in this respect, but I do hope that some considerations may avail with hon. Gentlemen day by day not to add to the difficulties which their fellow-countrymen abroad have in carrying on the work of administration. Why it should be supposed that because a Briton goes abroad to work for his country that he should be therefore bereft of those qualities of mercy, compassion, justice, and honour, which we all allow to distinguish our noble selves in this country, is a matter which passes my comprehension. I regard it as truly deplorable. So much so that I will bring my remarks to an end for fear I should be betrayed into speech stronger than desirable in my expressions of disapproval of this course of conduct.

On one or two occasions I have raised matters appertaining to the government of the West Indies. I want to take the opportunity to-night, and I venture to hope that I will be able to extract from the Under-Secretary some sympathetic expression in regard to the matters which I am going to deal with. At the present moment in this country we hear from both political parties on Free Trade and Protection a great deal about the taxation of the food of the people, should certain things take place. I want to point out how the necessary revenue of the Government of the West Indies is raised. Take Jamaica. Last year I pointed out that we might economise with regard to the administration. To-night I will not deal with that aspect of the question. It may be argued that it is necessary to have these taxes in order to raise the revenue necessary for the government of the country. This Government believes in the policy of Free Trade and of relieving the people of taxation so far as possible. What about the West Indies? I am sorry to say little attention is paid on many occasions to the defects that exist in many of the Colonies. In order to raise the necessary revenue of the West Indies we have customs duties to the following extent:—

On bacon the tax is equivalent to 20 per cent. Their beef is taxed from 22 to 30 per cent. ["Hear, hear," from the OPPOSITION Benches.] Yes, things were even worse under the administration of my hon. Friends. Bread is taxed 33 per cent., butter 29 per cent., cheese 33 per cent., flour 45 per cent., sugar 50 per cent., and oil for domestic purposes TO per cent. Now, I venture to think that if such conditions were talked about so far as this country is concerned, that we should have a very strong discussion in this House. These are the conditions existing in the West Indies. We are responsible for it. I want to appeal to the Government, while they are in power, to make an attempt to relieve this unjust and unfair taxation which is imposed upon the inhabitants of the West Indies. I do not anticipate when our Friends come into power that there will be any prospect—no matter how many appeals may be made—to get taxation of this character removed. Therefore, I appeal, in all sincerity, to my hon. Friend in charge of this matter. Of course, my Friend the Noble Earl has made one of his characteristic speeches, and has pointed out the defects of the Liberal party. Not only that, but he got into the sphere of prophesy as to what the defects of a Labour Administration might be when it comes into power. If I went into prophesy I venture to think, so far as we are personally concerned, that the Noble Earl would be the last man to get a place in our Government so far as any administration—

I never intended to be humorous or the reverse. I made no reflection upon a Labour Administration. I said that if there was a Labour Administration in this country no doubt the civil servants would find themselves in a position of disadvantage.

Therefore, the Noble Earl wanted some guarantee of security in regard to those who might lose their situations. I am quite willing to have regard to that, but the Noble Earl and his Friends might have thought of that when they introduced the Chinese coolies into the Transvaal, and replaced the white labour in the mines. We did not hear such questions at that particular moment. If the principle is right in regard to one class, it is right in regard to the humblest worker in any part of the country. Let us have the principle applied all round.

In regard to our administration in the West Indies, which has now gone on for 250 years, I want to point out that so far as the condition of the people is concerned they ought to be much better than they are. Agricultural labourers are receiving from 3s. to 4s. per week. Between 60 and 70 per cent, of the population live in dwellings of the annual value of no more than £4. Over 36 per cent, of the children of school age are left to grow up in ignorance, with the result that we pay something like £90,000 per annum in Jamaica for constabulary. As to indentured coolie labour, it is not my intention to say much about it to-night. I want to thank the Under-Secretary for the action he has taken in regard to this very vexed question. The Government are going to appoint a Select Committee to take evidence. I venture to hope that by next year the Government will be in a position to say that the grievances as to coolie labourers have been removed. I have never been able to understand why one section of the community should be compensated, as in the case of the planters in the West Indies, in order that they might have cheap labour, and thereby displace the labour available to a very great extent. It costs something like £8,000, and this could be saved by dealing out justice under this particular head. Just one other matter: A previous Administration took away the municipal government of the Port-of-Spain. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham was at the head of the Administration at that time. The town has been governed since then by a nominated board. I want to appeal to the Under-Secretary that the town of Port-of-Spain has been penalised sufficiently with regard to any defects of municipal Government, and that they should now have their municipal authority restored. For, whatever the defects were with regard to the municipal administration, they could not be laid upon the shoulders of the humbler portion of the population. It was a £20 fran- chise, upon which the municipal authority was elected. Therefore the municipal authority was really elected by the upper and middle classes. To penalise the people as they have been penalised is, I think, grossly unfair. I do not know whether I am doing right in stating what I am now about to do, but the late Governor, whom I saw just previous to his death, expressed his feeling of approbation in regard to the restoration of the municipal authority of the Port-of-Spain, and I hope the Under-Secretary will see to this matter, and that the restoration will be put upon a more democratic franchise, a £12 franchise instead of £20. If we are prepared to do that, to trust the people in the future more than in the past, to the same extent as the Government are doing in the Transvaal, I venture to think that it will be good for this country, and good for the people of the West Indies.

I regret the attack made by the hon. Member for Montgomery Boroughs on those Members of the House who criticise the action of the Natal Government. I think that criticism in this House, however much it may be disapproved by the hon. Member for Montgomery Boroughs, on the action of the Colonies has to a certain extent a very useful effect. The public opinion of this country has a liberalising influence upon Colonial government. It has its drawbacks I know, but at the same time the public opinion of this country as expressed by Members of this House does act as a certain check in our relations with the Colonies. I do not think that the prosecution of Dinizulu is anything which I can look back upon as an Englishman with pride, and I believe that in a few years' time the Natal Government will be only too anxious to forget that episode. I have never myself joined in criticism of the Natal Government, so I can say that much with all the clearer conscience now. I wish to ask the Under-Secretary for the Colonies whether he can give us any information about the recent extension of the Federated Malay States. The territory of Kelanton and Trengann have recently been added to the Malay States, which have been so wonderfully successful and prosperous, and which are, perhaps, one of the most prosperous parts of the British Empire.

The prosperity of these colonies certainly makes the exten- sion of the Federated Malay States justifiable from a financial point of view, but I want to know what sacrifices we made to the Siamese Government in taking over these new States. I also want to be assured that the same system which made the old States prosperous will be extended to the new States. What has made the Federated Malay States so prosperous has been the method adopted of dealing with the land and mineral wealth, and I think we should have the same system continued in the new States. The mineral wealth, the tin, and the rubber lands may be made to yield a big revenue for a short time, but hereafter the States would not be so prosperous as they are now. Sir Frank Swettenham has so dealt with the land and mineral wealth of these States that they are a permanent asset. The wealth of tin and rubber lands were leased for rent, and not permanently alienated in the present Colonies. Will the same system be adhered to in the new States? I hope the Under-Secretary will be able to give us some assurance on that point. I do not wish to raise the question of British East Africa and the reorganisation of the administration until the Colonial Office Vote, but I do hope the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies is preparing some sort of organisation in that country to deal with this subject when the Colonial Office Vote does come on.

I have always admired my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend, but I think he has really surpassed himself to-day. That anybody at this time should justify Milnerism in South Africa requires, when one examines the evidence, an amount of civic courage and tenacious principle greater than I have met. My hon. Friend even went the length of defending Chinese labour, and of saying that the piosperity of South Africa was due to what he was pleased to call its steadying effect. It has been proved quite clearly that there never has been politically, commercially, or from any point of view, a more disastrous experiment than this employment of Chinese labour. It has been proved that the mining industry has had to undergo a period of depression, I think wholly due to the violent discussion to which that terrible experiment gave rise. In regard to the policy of Lord Milner, I make a distinction between him and Milnerism. I do not wish to say a word against Lord Milner in his personal capacity. I had the honour for some years of his acquaintance, and besides Lord Milner, so far as his policy in South Africa is concerned, is a fallen man, and, therefore let us be generous to him. ["Oh, oh."] Yes, fallen, as well as the party which he dragged to the same destruction. I am dealing with Milnerism, and I am glad to find that we have to-day one or two converts from Milnerism. If there be any experiment in the world to which Lord Milner and those who agreed with him, including most Members above the Gangway, were opposed, it was the experiment of giving full and entire self-government to the Transvaal. I remember the many speeches made from these Benches, including the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, and the speech of the late Colonial Secretary, pointing out the disasters and terrors which such an experiment was bound to bring in its train. So far as their opinions go, and so far as the opinion of Lord Milner goes, that experiment would have been prevented.

The right hon. Gentleman is usually relevant both in his speeches and his interruptions, but allow me to say that I think his interruption is not in the least relevant. I was dealing with the experiment of complete self-government. It was a matter of time; time was the essence of the whole thing. The whole of the glory of the consequences which have flown from the bestowal of full self-government on the Transvaal are due to the fact that there was no delay about it. It was not a question of time, but of immediate action. I do not allude to this question in any spirit of recrimination, but my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend can give literary charm to the most absurd fallacy. Does anybody forget that the argument was constantly used, gilded by all the literary rhetoric of Lord Milner, that in dealing with the Boers of the Transvaal and the Boers of the Orange Free State, we were dealing with what I think they called panoplied traitors. The argument was that the hatred of the Boers in these two States was a hatred so inveterate or ingrained as to be incurable, and that every concession we gave to these Boers would be used not for the purpose of advancing the interests of their own country, or for doing justice to the various races in their own country, but for the purpose of oppressing men of other races, and also making an attack upon the very existence of the British Empire in South Africa. It is rather amazing at this time of day to read some of the comments upon the action of the Government in regard to the Transvaal and the Orange Free State by some of the men who were the most ardent apostles of Milnerism. I was reading the other day a letter from Lord Curzon, who represents, I might almost say, the hierarchy of that political gospel which has been established in regard to India, and which is so ably represented in this House by the hon. Member for Montgomery Boroughs. As I have mentioned the name of the hon. Member, will he allow me to say that I entirely dissent from the doctrine that he has laid down. I do not think this House is ever better occupied than when it is criticising, and severely criticising, the proceedings, the conduct and the policy of great officers of State.

The House is never better occupied than in criticising both great and small officials of the Empire. If the hon. Gentleman means that it should be done in a spirit of consideration, then everybody agrees with him. I quite accept that proposition, but I do say most emphatically that these enormous and despotic powers given to officials over native population are powers which, though usually exercised with discretion, public spirit, and even generosity, yet in many cases are liable to abuse, and this House will lose its highest and best position in this Empire if it should ever cease to be the supreme court of appeal to the humblest creature in any of the dependancies of our Empire. Lord Curzon is an enthusiastic admirer of the policy of the Government, but I think I remember when he also was not a supporter of it. Everybody is in favour of it now, but I am not sure that even everybody on the other side of the House was in favour of it a few years ago. I believe myself that the Premiership of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman will go down to history imperishable and indestructible, because he used his tremendous authority as head of the party which he led for so many years, to give self-government, broadly, generously, without grudging, without limitation, without delay. Lord Milner, I dare say, if he had been in home politics at the time, might have taken a different position. What does he do to-day. He writes with the strongest approval of the results of his policy, and he goes out of his way to give a high testimony to General Botha. "General Botha," he says, "impressed all by his sincerity and his fine standard of honour, of his large conception of public and patriotic duty." What a great pity that was not thought of before. "Mr. Steyn lent his high talent and remarkable influence to the cause of harmony and union." What a pity also that was not thought of before. So high is the Imperial spirit of Lord Curzon and his enthusiasm for self-government; so infected was Lord Curzon with the spirit he found around, he says. "The Orange Free Colony," and then he goes to say, "is to be given back its old and cherished title of Free State." I remember a few years ago, when it was considered a question of high policy to give that last wretched insult to the fallen foe, to give it a sort of police court alias instead of the ancient and honoured title by which it deserved to be known. But that is not all. Lord Curzon deals with the question of language. I remember when it was held to be high policy to use all the influence of the Empire to put down the Taal language. Lord Curzon says, and here is a piece of wisdom on the subject: "No statutory provision can permanently affect the destiny of speech." What a pity that these words are not written in letters of gold over the temple of every Government that has to deal with any population speaking a different language. I give the final passage I will take from the letter of Lord Curzon:— every man in this country and every part of this country. Is it not a strange reflection that it should have cost £250,000,000 of money and 40,000 lives in order to make that policy as apparent to one section in this country as it was apparent to another in this country.

Is it not about time that we should get rid of the narrowness and the arrogance and the blindness and racial hatred and racial suspicion which have brought this Empire to so many disasters and to blunders and to crimes. May I say that the spirit of generosity which this Government has extended to one portion of the Empire and following the same spirit as to other portions of the Empire, may well be welcomed by them as a policy which the Government has not been great enough to imitate, but which may be recommended as the only policy by which they will close the only wound that now remains.

I will reply to the eloquent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division touching upon the general questions raised, and to right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Perhaps it would be more convenient to the House if I first dealt with the points referring to different parts of the Empire raised by hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House. The hon. Member for Montgomery Boroughs asked a question about Nyassaland and about a railway in which, I understood, he is himself directly interested. He will understand that I cannot make any definite statement about it or what will happen till matters have advanced to a further stage. As to the possibility of the building of a railway on one or other bank of the river, I cannot give him any precise information. It is a nice point of diplomatic procedure what will take place in the event which he supposes. I can only say, if he wishes to be informed on the matter, I shall be glad to give him information either in reply to a question or privately. It would not be possible for me to deal with a somewhat delicate matter of the kind on such short notice. With regard to the general depression in Nyassaland, the Government are aware there has been some depression in that part of the world, and viewed it with anxiety and concern. There are indications and signs there as elsewhere of returning prosperity.

With regard to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, who raised some points on the government of the West Indian Colonies, he talks about the alarming taxes or the very high rates of taxation charged in those islands. I noticed he was loudly cheered by hon. Gentlemen opposite. The reason for those cheers I could not comprehend, and I should be glad if they could be explained to me. But especially in the case of Jamaica the hon. Gentleman has made out a case for consideration. It is true in those West Indian islands, as hon. Gentlemen opposite will know, the system of taxation is wholly dissimilar to what we have here, nor is it possible to impose income tax and other taxes the same as in a country like our own. I can say at once that the matter does engage our consideration. I will represent what he has said to the Secretary of State, and shall be glad to give him any further information on the matter when the time comes. He raised a question of education. On that I cannot say anything definite, and he will forgive me for saying if he had given me notice of the points I would have been better able to deal with them.

As to indentured labour, I am glad to state we have been able to appoint a Committee to discuss the matter. This Committee will have an able chairman, Lord Sanderson, whom hon. Members on both sides know is specially qualified to deal with the matter. They will consider generally the question of emigration into our Crown Colonies. It has been suggested we might enlarge the scope of the reference to include emigration of Indians to all parts of the Empire. Lord Crewe did not think it wise to so enlarge the scope of the inquiry. We thought it better to do one thing at a time. Although the two matters are in a sense the same, they are in another view essentially different. The question of emigration of Indians into Colonies somewhat similar in climate is different from emigration into self-governing Colonies, most of which are in the temperate zone.

Then there was a, reference to the Port of Spain. That is a long story. The Member for West Birmingham found it necessary to put an end to the Council then existing in the state of affairs and in the best interests of the Colony. It was then administered on an entirely autocratic basis. Some advance has been made by the appointment of gentlemen representing special interests, and it is the intention of the Secretary of State, whenever occasion promises and as soon as it is possible, with due regard for in- terests affected, to do so, to take a further step forward on democratic lines. There is only one other point before I come to South Africa, and that is the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme with regard to Siam. I had no notice of the matter, which is one of very great importance, involving the transfer to this country of an immense area amounting to thousands of square miles. I may tell my hon. Friend that we propose to lay the text of the agreement in the course of a few days, and I hope also some Papers in regard to it. Perhaps, therefore, he will allow me to defer any statement on the subject until those Papers are laid.

Now I come to the main point of the debate. The right hon. Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, said with great truth—and I cannot say how glad I was to hear him say it—that the clouds were drifting away from the sky in South Africa, but he said there were two comparatively little clouds still remaining. One was the question of the settlers in the Orange River Colony, and the other was the question of the retrenched officials. With regard to the settlers, he said quite truly that their presence in the Orange River Colony had tended to nothing but good. They have made the best of friends with their Boer neighbours, and both Boers and English have learnt much from each other. Therefore, I am perfectly at one with him in saying that the presence of these gentlemen has been to the general advantage of the State. When he goes further and says that such experiments are always a success, I may say at once that anyone bearing his honoured name is likely to think so because his family is connected with a most striking instance of successful settlement, but if time permitted I could quote many cases to the contrary, where unofficial settlement on a large scale has been a very great failure. I venture to say this to the House because such schemes are being brought forward and pressed upon the Government, whether drawn from this or the other side of the House, and it is well to bear in mind that all such plantations are not and have not been in history universal successes. But, to take the special case here, he says that relief is necessary for the 700 gentlemen who have farms in the Orange River Colony, and he points out, with a measure of truth I think, that they stand in a very exceptional position. No official encouragement was given to them from here, so far as I know, to take these farms in the Orange River Colony, or as we shall soon call it the Orange Free Colony, but they were encouraged unofficially. They were told that it was a fine thing for them to settle in the country, and to show their Dutch neighbours the advantages of British skill and cultivation. Other reasons also were held out to them why it would be to the general advantage of the State that they should take up land. I know of one case in particular where a gentleman was strongly urged—not from here, but from the other end—to take up land as a patriotic duty. That does give a reason for the statement made from this box, both by my predecessor and by other Ministers, that we owe some special consideration to these settlers.

But what is the remedy proposed by the right hon. Gentleman? The only definite remedy, I think, which he proposes to-day is not the revaluation of the farms—that he apprehends is not desirable for all of them—but that in the event of a loan being guaranteed by us to the Orange River Colony some portion of it should be set aside for the assistance of these settlers; or, in the alternative, he asks us to continue after the time when it would naturally expire the Land Board which at present administers the affairs of the settlers and their farms.

I did not confine myself to those two suggestions. I did not think it was my business to make any definite suggestions. That is the business of His Majesty's Government. But I did make a suggestion with reference to the legislation contemplated in the Transvaal connected with this matter—legislation containing many provisions with which I am heartily in sympathy.

The right hon. Gentleman is no doubt quite right in saying that it is hardly his duty to find a remedy, but he did mention these particular remedies. He drew attention to the Transvaal, where also there are settlers who, as he thinks, are under somewhat better conditions. First of all, with regard to the loan. The matter is still under consideration, and I cannot make any statement about it. The House will not be surprised that this is so, in view of the fact that we are anxiously waiting for the result of the efforts of South African statesmen to secure closer union. It is quite clear that in the event of closer union coming to fruition a different set of facts will be created from what exists at present, which would greatly affect all the considerations concerning the proposed loan. For that reason, to a very large extent, it is impossible to make any statement with regard to the loan, and therefore I am debarred from giving any enlightenment to the right hon. Gentleman, as I should like to do, as to how far the guaranteeing of the loan would meet his wishes—and indeed the wishes of all of us—that these settlers should be enabled to continue their farms without undue burden to the community.

With regard to the Transvaal settlers, the right hon. Gentleman supposes that they are in a far better position than the settlers in the Orange River Colony. That is not the view of all of them, nor is it entirely true. There are advantages in the Transvaal system, but there are also great advantages in the system under which the Orange River Colony settlers live. We have recently received a telegram from the Governor in which he points out that with regard to simplicity of tenure the Orange River Colony settlers are in a decidedly better position than the Transvaal settlers. Therefore, I do not think it likely that legislation will be introduced to assimilate the conditions of the Orange River Colony settlers to those of the settlers in the Transvaal.

The other point suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, and still more by the hon. Member for Gravesend, was as to whether we could continue the Land Board. I say at once that His Majesty's Government do not propose to continue the Land Board. To do so, unless at the express wish of the Colonies themselves, would seem to me to defeat the very object we have in view. It would place the settlers in the position of being in the Colony, but not of it. The very fact that we attempted by any means to impose this system upon the Colonies when they did not want it would make them regard the settlers with some distrust, even if they did not do so already, as I am glad to think they do not.

I do not say the right hon. Gentleman suggested it, but one Member on the other side asked me whether there was any proposition to continue the Land Board. I think the House will probably agree that, especially in view of the happier state of affairs obtaining in South Africa, the continuation of the Land Board is not a good solution.

There is only one other point in connection with the settlers. It may be asked what position will they occupy, supposing closer union becomes an accomplished fact. So far as I read the proposals, and as far as my advisers have been able to enlighten me, the settlers will certainly be under the Governor-General during the continuance of their term. From Article 15, it will be seen that all matters except certain matters thereafter mentioned are to be under the cognisance of the central authority—I am putting it very broadly—and from Article 85 the Land Board does not appear to be one of the excepted matters, so that the central authority would have to deal with the question of the settlers rather than the provincial councils. If that were the case, it would probably be an advantage. But I must protect myself by saying, first of all, that the unification proposals are not an Act, but merely proposals; and, secondly, that the whole matter is exceedingly complicated. The interpretation of an Act of Parliament is difficult, but the interpretation of a proposed Act is even more difficult. The right hon. Gentleman may well say, "You have given us a good deal of information, but you have not told us what you are going to do for the settlers."

May I ask whether you are going to make any representations with regard to the form of constitution, as was done in the case of Australia?

I will not press my hon. Friend. He knows the matter to which I am alluding, and he will, perhaps, deal with it at a convenient time.

We are anxious to lay any papers we can in the matter, and as soon as possible. The greater publicity there is in the matter the better for all concerned. With regard to the particular point on which I think my right hon. Friend takes a special interest—respecting matters of representation—I cannot on the spur of the moment make any statement.

On the question, What are you going to do for the settlers, I must give the same answer. In view of the nearness, as we believe it to be, of the fruition of the closer union proposals, we cannot make any kind of announcement now. It all depends on what takes place whether anything can be done, and, if so, what, to give greater security to the settlers. But this I can say, and I think the House will be glad to hear it: there has been a better season agriculturally in the Orange River Colony, and many of the settlers who were in great straits are now happily in a much more favourable financial position. This has one important bearing on the proposal that steps should be taken to obtain a revaluation of the farms, with the consent of the Government of the Orange River Colony. The value of a farm depends, of course, upon what can be got off it. During the past few years seasons have been consistently bad, and the value of the farms might reasonably be supposed by a competent valuer to be very low. But to-day the value of every farm has presumably gone up, and it is possible—I do not say it is certain—that the great majority of the settlers, if the seasons continue to be favourable, will be satisfied with their present tenure. I can only say that we fully agree that the settlers have a special claim for consideration on the part of His Majesty's Government; but at the same time it is absolutely essential in their interests, quite as much as in the interests of good government and cordial relations between us and the self-governing Colonies, that their interests and their lives should not be divorced from the country of their adoption, and that nothing we do from here, or anything they do, should make them strangers in a strange land, supported by a neighbouring power.

Then I come to the question of the retrenched officials. It is an old story, but one, 1 fully agree, that rightly takes up the attention of the hon. Gentleman who has seen these retrenched officials, for some of them have suffered very greatly. But the hon. Member for Gravesend and the Noble Lord opposite—who was, if I may say so, more active than accurate—were wrong in supposing that the Government of this country had been faithless to obligations. That is not the case at all. It is a complete delusion on the part of the Noble Lord. I am one of those who naturally, in the circumstances of my life, take a great interest in these retrenched officials, because many men who went out with me to South Africa took service in the different States, and therefore I take a particularly keen interest in them. But when it is said that the Government have been false to a definite legal obligation—that is not the case.

I will not say anything more about what the Noble Lord did say, because it was not exceedingly accurate. The right hon. Gentleman in the comments which he very rightly made on this subject asked certain definite questions. He said that promises had been made to the men on the guarantee that being civil servants they would be paid the full amount—

It can be argued that that has been the case. It is a matter of legal interpretation. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that we have said to some of these unfortunate men, "If you are not satisfied, you can go to law." It is not exactly fair to put it in that way. I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman is putting it in that way. What we have said was—

I put two questions in regard to this, and it is very important that they should be clearly answered. The first question is: Do His Majesty's Government recognise that those people who have been promised permanent positions by the representatives of the King in South Africa are entitled to compensation either in money or an equivalent position in the Colonial service? Then with regard to these other officials who have been transferred to the Civil Service in this country, or in other Colonies, I said it was manifestly wrong that they should be at the expense of settling the question in dispute as to their rights, and I invited a pledge from the hon. Gentleman that he would undertake to settle the question in controversy.

I will give the right hon. Gentleman all the information I can. When I sat down on this bench at four o'clock I was not aware that the matter of the retrenched officials was to be raised, and two legal points of the greatest intricacy have been raised without any notice whatever. I cannot give pledges on behalf of the Government—

I do not wish to enter into any controversy with the right hon. Gentleman, for nobody could believe that he would not treat anyone with the strictest consideration, but in point of fact what he did tell me was that the question of the settlers would be raised, but not a word was said about the retrenched officials, and nobody was more surprised than myself when the question was raised. I will look into the points which the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned. I may tell the right hon. Gentleman that difficulties have arisen owing to the retrenched officials relying upon hearsay evidence, as it is called in law, and being unable to produce anything in writing. Anyone would always trust the word of a British officer, but it is not a thing upon which you can found a legal claim. I certainly think it would be a great hardship if, in elucidating the legal question, where a man is entitled to a pension, whether the pension should be paid by the Colonial Government or this Government. The civil servant himself had to bear the expense of that, and, without giving a pledge, I will make the strongest representation to my Noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and to the authorities in South Africa that either the one Government or the other should bear the legal expense, rather than the retrenched officials, who, in the nature of the case, would be rather short of funds.

I pass over, if I may, a few of the sporadic evidences that some long-gone controversies are still remembered by hon. Members who have endeavoured to make the proceedings a little more interesting by trying to revive byegone passions. Everybody rejoices heartily at the fortunate change which has come over the whole of South Africa and South African opinion. It is seen most strikingly in the letter of Lord Curzon, which was read by the hon. Member for the Scotland Division, and we find it difficult to revive the party passions which distracted us not long ago. I confess that I must refuse to go into the question who is to claim the credit for this satisfactory state of matters. Nobody can attempt to apportion the true measure of praise to be accorded to the different sets of men and to individuals who have all borne part in arriving at what looks like being a great and happy settlement. I would be the last to say that Lord Milner had not borne his part, for, of course, he bore his part, but others bore their part; and when the hon. Member for the Scotland Division said it would be to the abiding credit of the memory of the late Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman that while many might have the credit of seeing a settlement possible in the future, he had the courage to take occasion by the hand, he spoke a true word, and I say that history will fully endorse it. But perhaps, after all, it is not any of us here who are entitled to the greatest credit for what is a very wonderful thing. I suppose that the credit will be accorded by those who look at it through the longest perspective to those men, both English and Dutch, who, after waging terrible war, have set their minds to work to heal racial animosities. I suppose the greatest measure of credit will be given to such men as those who met at Durban and again at Cape Town, and have set the whole world a splendid example of what can be done in healing racial feuds. I suppose that to such men as General Botha and Mr. Steyn, on the one hand, and Sir George Farrer and Dr. Jameson, on the other, and many others, the greatest credit will be given as the men who have led their people through so desperate a conflict to so great a conciliation.

Irish Fisheries

English Members who remain in the House will probably be somewhat surprised that I should address myself to the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture in Ireland on such a subject as fisheries. The hon. Gentlemen is, indeed, not charged, not like the Chief Secretary, with the headship of so many Departments that he is unable to count them, but still he holds dominion not only over the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, or at least the hens of the farmyard, but also over the fish of the sea, and I venture to say that his maritime functions are not less important than his territorial. The fishing industry in Ireland has within recent years, though still only in its infancy, grown into very considerable importance. The hon. Gentleman is happier than the Chief Secretary, inasmuch as, although he rules only the Atlantic waves, those Atlantic waves are less turbulent than some of the waters over which the Chief Secretary has to rule, and his subjects the fish are less fishy than some of the subjects with which the Chief Secretary has to deal. Therefore, I am afraid that the House will not be accorded on this occasion what it always looks for in Irish debates, the amusement of a row. In the tranquil atmosphere which is therefore around us I desire to point out the importance of this industry, and to ask the assistance of the hon. Gentleman, of the Irish Government and of the House in enabling us to place that great industry upon a proper footing. I remember not so very long ago, when what is now one of the chief centres of the fishing industries in Ireland there were not more than a few curraghs or coracles and some open boats fishing for the local trade and distributing through donkey carts to the country. Now we have a fleet of many scores of vessels. They are not all Irish; some of them are attracted from Scotland and England. These vessels are landing every year a quantity of fish the value of which in relation to the general character of the districts is very important indeed. I notice from the latest Return of the Sea Fisheries that there were landed at a single pier in the county of Donegal between 1st May and 10th June herrings to the value of £18,000. This House is accustomed to deal in millions and £18,000 may be regarded as of no account at all, but that sum is a substantial one in a union whose total valuation does not exceed £11,000. That has come about from the growth of the fishing industry. We have got there, and in other parts of Ireland, a population which has come to be practically entirely dependent on fishing. The land question, which has necessarily and rightly made so much noise in this House, is in these districts of comparatively small importance. The principal reason being that the land consists of rocks, and that the people have never lived on the land. They are living now comparatively well out of the proceeds of the fisheries. I am told by those who remember the country for more years than I do that the improvement in the housing, clothing, and food of the people in the districts affected within the last 10 or 15 years is something extraordinary, but concurrently with this growth there have arisen certain dangers. The success of the fishing has attracted to the fishing grounds people who we could very well spare. In particular it has attracted people engaged in the trawling industry. We are favoured yearly with the attention of trawlers, who I think I may say are not always particular about the observance of the limits to which they are restricted by the laws now in existence. I know that inspectors have been engaged in making inquiries in this matter, and I hope that the Government will be able to give us some information. We are also threatened on some parts of the Irish coast with a danger which, although probably less, is a matter of considerable moment to many Irish fishermen. I allude to the arrival on certain parts of the coast of those who are engaged in whaling. Those who are engaged in the Irish fishing industry view this with great alarm, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what decision has been arrived at. As I said, those who are engaged in this industry view this matter with great alarm.

I want now to deal with the more general aspect of the subject. The new cruiser is much faster than the old one, but a second vessel will be necessary. It is a superhuman task to police the fishery grounds of Ireland with one small vessel. In that connection we cannot but remember that while Ireland has one cruiser Scotland has five for the protection of her fisheries. It should be remembered that this vessel had to be purchased out of the general funds of the Department. It has to be maintained every year out of a fund which amounts to £10,000. That is the amount in the hands of the Department for the purposes of our fisheries. So much for the existing state of things. We really ought to have proper protection. We have not got it, and we ought to have it. We are only asking after all that the public Department which is charged with the protection of a great and growing industry should provide an adequate amount for the performance of the duty which. Parliament has entrusted it with. But the protection of the existing fisheries is not the only thing. I do not think we can maintain the fisheries as they are to-day. We must either go forward or go back. In this respect, again, the very success of the fisheries has brought about two things. In the old days fishing was carried on in a quiet and modest way, and there was very little competition, and the fishermen were not troubled much by trawlers and whalers. In a return which has been published it is shown that a considerable number of drifters from Scotland go to Ireland. They are always welcome, and are always well treated. But it is undoubtedly a fact that it is extremely difficult for a small sailing vessel under the present conditions to get an adequate share of the fishing in their own waters. This is recognised in the Departmental Report, which speaks of the difficulties which sailing vessels experience in competition with steamers. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give us some information as to what extent the experiment will go which he is making with motor fishing boats. Unless something is done, I very much fear the Irish fisheries will go back to the old conditions, and that other I people than the Irish will reap the harvest in their own fishing grounds. Then, again, on the Irish coast there are ill-built and unstable piers, and in many cases piers have been so ill-chosen that for a great part of the year it is practically impossible for the fishermen to go out at all. In a part of the country where storms are violent there have been within the last few years wrecks after wrecks of fishing boats lying in the harbour. So bad has this state of things become that, I am informed, insurance companies will no longer insure vessels at any price at all, and unless something is done in this respect there is very great danger to a most promising industry. An expenditure of money would produce a very ample reward. It is quite clear that neither the Department nor the Congested Districts Board can, out of their own funds, find the necessary money. A comparatively small expenditure of money will yield a hundredfold in the growth or in the actual creation of the industry in various parts. I am glad that the Secretary of the Treasury has entered the House. I tremble to quote figures in his presence, but my own impression is that we shall want a very substantial sum for piers and harbours in Ireland if the industry is to be properly developed. A sum of £100,000 would be only a drop in the ocean if the industry is really to be developed to its full capacity. We are reasonable men, and we will not ask too much, but I do hope that the Secretary for the Treasury and all those concerned will really see that there is a case for an expenditure of money in this matter. As I said a little while ago, if the money is wisely expended it will produce an enormous return. I do not want the money to be spent in Ireland or anywhere else merely for the sake of expending it. There is no doubt that a considerable amount of money in the past has been spent, and has not been wisely spent, and I hope the Irish Government will see that whatever money can be obtained for this purpose will be spent under the very best men that can be obtained.

We certainly have many monuments of failure. I know one little pier for example which extends for a considerable distance inland, while its toe just touches the water. When I asked how it came to be built there I was informed that the contractor was not supervised, arid that he built it inland instead of out to sea for the sake of obtaining a drier footing. I heard another case the other day where they had two piers.

I am not quite sure. I think the old one went out to sea, but the new pier was so admirably planned that after it was built they were not able to use it at all. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London smiles, and no doubt he thinks that makes against the case that I am trying to establish. But I desire to be frank with the House, and I say it is not all expenditure of this kind which is beneficial. I do hope we shall get a considerable amount of money, but I hope the spending of it will be supervised by the very best men that can be procured. I hope also that cheeseparing in detail upon the scheme shall not be allowed to defeat the object we have in view. I appeal with some confidence in these matters to all sections of the House. Our friends for Ulster above the gangway with whom we are often in disagreement will not, I am sure, refuse their support in this matter. I am sure the Irish Government with their knowledge of the needs of the country will favour our demands, and even the stern economists who are for the moment absent, and the Treasury, I hope will not refuse us their aid. So far as I know the Treasury, I have never made any attack upon those charged with the responsibility of looking after the public purse. It is quite true we object altogether to the whole system by which Irish money is swept into the Treasury, and only doled out again in the form of so-called grants, but we recognise that under the existing system the Treasury officials are the guardians of the public purse, and that it is their duty to keep a vigilant eye upon expenditure, and I must say, quite frankly, in recent years Irish demands have received very sympathetic treatment from the guardians of the public purse. In this case I feel we are asking for an expenditure which though in one sense may be said to be throwing money into the sea is not in another sense. I know no expenditure capable of more beneficial results, of really creating wealth where it did not exist before, than this, and I cannot conceive anything more wasteful and stupid than to set up a public department such as the Department of Agriculture, and the Congested Districts Board, equip them with a staff of inspectors, clerks, and officials, and all the rest of it, and then refuse to these Departments the funds which are necessary to enable them to carry out properly the work with which they are charged. I think that is not only a stupid and wasteful thing, but it is also really a dishonest thing—I do not mean personal dishonesty, of course—but it is dishonest for this reason, it enables people to lay the flattering unction to their souls that these bodies are doing what I know Englishmen to-day desire of them, that they are doing something to repair what I believe all England to-day regrets, namely, the destruction of Irish industries in the past. It is quite clear that the mere existence of Departments of this kind, the mere placing upon them by Parliament of certain beneficial functions is no use at all unless at the same time you are willing to place in their hands the funds necessary to enable them to carry out their work. I do appeal, therefore, with some confidence to all sections of the House to help us in the first place to protect existing industries, and in the second place to reap the abundance which might easily be obtained from the sea, and to enable us to make the fishing industry as it might easily be made a source of enormous prosperity to our country.

In some of the recent debates in this House on the fiscal question we heard a great deal about the destruction of Irish industries. As far as my memory serves me I do not remember anyone having the hardihood to stand up for that policy. But when we are speaking of the destruction of Irish industries we must not forget the fishing industry also. If anyone will take the trouble to read Mr. Lecky writing on that subject he will find ample corroboration of what I have stated, and in one passage he will find it stated that the fishermen of the South Coast of England sent a petition to this House pointing out that the fishermen of Wexford and Waterford coasts were doing such injury to the fisheries of the South of England and forestalling them in the market and asking for the suppression of this industry altogether. And Mr. Lecky says there was a party in England who strongly advocated the opinion that no boat except one built in England and manned by Englishmen should be allowed to fish upon the Irish coast. Now with regard to the trawler question. Let me say I believe it would be far more satisfactory to the Irish fisheries if trawling was prohibited on the Irish coast by statutes instead of by bye-laws. I remember well when the Bill was introduced prohibiting trawling on the Scotch coast. We at once said that the effect would be to drive those that were found doing harm on the Scotch coasts over to the Irish coasts, and that they would do a great deal of harm to the fishing industry. The present Leader of the Opposition pledged himself at that time that he would introduce a Bill for the protection of the Irish fisheries and prohibiting trawling within three miles of the coast, and in due course it was introduced and passed its first and second reading and Committee. For some reason which I could never understand the Bill was recommitted and reconstructed and completely changed. Trawling within the three mile limit was not prohibited by statute but was to be prevented by bye-law in certain waters. I do not know how it works at present, but the effect was after it was passed that steam trawlers came in hordes along our coast. They always had the excuse that the Irish coast was not protected by statute, and that they did not know of the bye-law. They went round the headlands by day and they came back at night again and did infinite injury. This Bill to which I refer was only introduced at the fag end of a Session, and the present Mr. Justice Madden, who was in charge of the Bill, said:— comes from foreign waters very far away. In the year 1906 no less than 200,000,000 trawled fish were landed upon the East coast, and I believe that they came from so far away as Morocco. It may seem incredible, but I understand it is a fact that no less than 1,500 square miles of the bottom of the sea are daily scraped by these trawlers. Hon Members must understand that trawl fishing cannot take place except on a sandy bottom, and these sandy bottoms are comparatively few and far between. When they are scraped by these trawlers immature fish are destroyed by the million, a practice which in the long run must interfere very largely with the fishery. It was quite different in the old days of the beam-trawler. They could not zigzag in and out like the steam trawler and since the steam trawlers came fishing in general has deteriorated. I see the right hon. Member for Grimsby in his place. I am glad to see him. I do not know but what he owns to steam trawling improving fishing. But the idea comes from Grimsby, and I think I may say that it smells somewhat of fishing. I also see the right hon. Member for South Dublin in his place, and I would remind him of the point made by my hon. Friend on my right. The Scotch Board at present have six ships to protect their coasts from these illegal trawlers, but the Irish coast, not very much less in area, is protected by two only; and, let me say this: that as far as I am concerned, and as far as I can see, these two boats do their duty admirably. But why should we not have the same assistance that the Admiralty give to the Scotch Fishery Board? We are to be taxed for the enormous forthcoming naval outlay. We are always taxed for it—we say, unfairly. Of what assistance or what advantage is your naval outlay to us? We have no commerce or trade to protect. It has been crushed by laws to which allusion has been already made. We have no advantage to obtain from that naval expenditure. I think it is far fairer that the Colonies, whose interests have to be preserved, should do more than they do now, and that we should pay less. But as it is we are taxed enormously, and we cannot get even temporary assistance from the Admiralty to protect our fishing industry.

Now, Sir, I will draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to a few of the remarks of his predecessors while responsible for the administration of this Act. At the fag end of the Session of 1901 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover introduced a Bill on the Irish fisheries. I put down an Amendment trying to pin the Admiralty to give us some assistance. Like most Irish legislation, this Bill came at the end of the Session. On the 11th of August the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dover promised—and his words can be seen in "Hansard"—that he, in conjunction with the then Vice President, Sir Horace Plunkett, would approach the Admiralty and see whether some assistance could not be obtained from that Department. That was in August, 1901; and next year, having heard that promise given, I asked the right hon. Gentleman what was the result of the negotiations that were taking place between him and the Admiralty on this subject, and his reply was: "The question is engaging attention and an inter-departmental correspondence on the subject is in progress." I suppose it was in progress and it may be in progress still. The fact remains, however, that from that day to this they have never given to us any assistance for the protection of this industry, though they have given and are still giving to the Scotch fisheries that assistance. I can quite corroborate what my hon. Friend has said about the Scotch fisheries. We do not grudge them that assistance, or any assistance they can get from any source. The Scotch fishermen come to my Constituency in large numbers, and a more respectable lot of fishermen there is not to be found. I say we do not grudge them any assistance they can get, but we do say that we certainly should get assistance of the same character from the Admiralty. Last year I asked another question on the subject. I asked what assistance was to be given by the Admiralty, and Captain Sinclair, as he then was, informed me that at that time they had one vessel and one tender. Further, I asked, as far back as 1902, Mr. Graham Murray what assistance they were receiving from the Admiralty, and how many boats they had for the protection of their fisheries, and he said that the cruisers at the disposal of the Fishery Board during the last year were the "Jackal," the "Daisy," the "Vigilant," the "Brenner," the "Minnow," and another, besides which they had occasional assistance from the Admiralty, and he said that the "Minnow" was built by the Fishery Boards under the new arrangement; the others were old vessels, and I asked were the others the property of the Admiralty, and Mr. Graham Murray said:—

Irish Harbours

I do not intend to enter into the general question of any of the topics discussed by my hon. Friend on this subject. My principal object in rising is to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President to explain a little more fully the answer which was given this evening to a question which was on the Paper. I may preface my remarks by saying that I think there is something more due by the Department to the harbours on the East Coast of Ireland than has ever been paid them. No one knows better than I do myself that all the help that has been given to the West Coast— to the fishermen on the West Coast—has been needed. More than has been given has been needed. But I am afraid the idea has got abroad amongst the authorities both in Dublin and London when dealing with this matter that the East Coast of Ireland is not in need of any aid at all from the State. No greater mistake could be made. The right hon. Gentleman will corroborate me when I say that there are places in every one of the eastern counties of Ireland which need assistance, if not quite so much, very nearly as much as the western harbours and approach them in the necessities of the situation. I am interested myself principally in the harbours in the county of Dublin, and that is a county which to many minds, I think, presents the idea of comparative wealth and comfort. The right hon. Gentleman lives in the county of Dublin himself. He knows it thoroughly, as well as I do. He knows that in the harbours there, there is just as much poverty as there is to be found in any part of the West of Ireland, and as little power to ameliorate it as there is to be found in the Western region. There are two harbours particularly with which I am concerned. There is the harbour of Howth. That is a royal harbour, and the fact that it is a Royal harbour implies a disgrace on its administration for leaving it in the condition in which it is at present. Sometimes it is impassable. You cannot get in and you cannot get out. Half of it is practically useless, and yet when we ask the Government to fulfil their obvious duty put upon them by law there is usually, if not an absolute refusal (generally there is an absolute refusal), an absolute indifference at the best, and the thing is never done. But, as I say, I do not address myself to the right hon. Gentleman in respect of that harbour; but I hope to make him understand more clearly than he seems to do at present the need of doing something to fulfil their legal duty to the Harbour Board. The other harbour is that of Balbriggan, which is not a Royal harbour, and is under the control of the Port and Docks Board of Dublin. The Port and Docks Board of Dublin has no interest in it whatever, and what the condition of it is at present may be more easily imagined than described. When the tide is out one would imagine that the best thing to do would be to sow it with grass seeds. The harbour is so filled up that you really imagine that the best thing to do would be to turn it into a garden; and as a matter of fact the difficulty of getting in and getting out, except at particular states of the tide, is well known to every Government official in Dublin, and, perhaps, also to every Government official in the Irish Office.

I have been trying for many years to get some Government Department to do something, and if I understand the right hon. Gentleman in his answer to-day, which I was very glad to hear, I think he does hold out not merely a promise that he will inquire into the matter, but a promise that something will be done. I hope I am correct in that, and that he will not merely promise to-night to go and look at the place. I do not like those promises. I remember warning a former Chief Secretary—I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin—against promising to go and look at these places. I knew that even if he went there was always a very easy way of getting out of performing the duty at all. I know that if the right hon. Gentleman says that he will go and see Balbriggan he will do so, and if he does he will come away with conclusions firmly fixed in his mind that something must be done immediately. No one can be more humiliated than I am always in making these appeals to a British Parliament. If I could avoid it I would do so, as it is a shame and a humiliation which ought to be shared by Lister Members. The idea of our being forced to come here year after year and ask a British Parliament for some of our own money for strictly Irish legitimate purposes is a most humiliating thing, and I would avoid it if I could, but I am forced to do it. When I do it I remind the House that we are not asking for British money but our own. We are reminded of the bad expenditure in the past, but the right hon. Gentleman must remember that this expenditure has been indulged in by agents of the British Government and not by any selected by us. For their misdeeds and mistakes we have to suffer and endure sneers on account of public money wasted in the past.

I have no desire to say one word against the requests —probably the legitimate requests—of Irish representatives that something should be done in the direction of constructing piers and harbours along their coast for the furtherance and development of the fishing industry there. One is, however, impressed with this view of the case —that the money that has been expended in the past seems to have been almost wasted—and I would suggest that if public money is in the future to be expended in piers and harbours that a wise suggestion would be that the local district council or authority should find some proportion of the money, and have something to do with the work. If they were made responsible for the expenditure of part of their own money I fancy that the piers would generally be carried out to deep water, and might be such as would be of value to the fishing industry. Reference has been made by the hon. Member for East Waterford to the fishing industries of England and Scotland, and I do not agree with all that he said, because he reflected on those particular industries. I think it is fair to say that they have to find from year to year, between ten and eleven million pounds worth of fish food for the people of this country, and they have to go where the food is if they are to supply the needs of the people. I happen to know that very useful food is to be found upon the western coast of Ireland, and if these Irish fishermen and those interested in Irish industries do not develop these fishing grounds, and do not do something to draw from the sea that important source of fish food which is to be found there, I do not think they should complain of other persons a little more enterprising who visit their waters and do something in that direction.

I am very glad that the Vice-President is in his place, because I understand that for the last year or 18 months a system of persecution has been pursued, especially along the West Coast of Ireland, and has been aimed at the steam trawling industry that visits these fishing grounds. There are a number of steam trawlers that come from Fleetwood and go along the Irish coast, and I understand that the evidence often given against them is not confined to that to be obtained from the cruisers that police the coast, but that persons living on the coast like themselves are allowed to go to the police and to lodge complaints and give evidence of breaches of the law by these vessels. It is not just that the evidence of interested parties should be taken in that way, because, in the first place, it is impossible for a landsman to see whether a vessel is within the three-mile limit or not, and at present at least the British trawler has a right even on the coast of Ireland to fish outside three miles, and is not to be interfered with in the legitimate discharge of its duty. Several of these cases have been brought before the Irish Courts, and witnesses have been subpoenaed and solicitors have been engaged, and their charges have been required to be paid by the steam trawler owner. Now this is a very unsatisfactory condition of things, and we should like to know when a fine is exacted what the amount of the fine is, especially as the witnesses go and wait for several days for the Court, and they charge several days' expenses, and are awarded very much better pay than I presume they ever earned in their lives. Then as to the solicitors' costs, I think we should know how they are made up and what is the method adopted in Ireland as to the prosecution of these particular ships.

I hope the Vice-President will not think I am here to plead for any one who breaks the law. I say that if a man comes within the three-mile limit or within an enclosed area he ought to be punished, but, at the same time, these bye-laws in regard to these prosecutions are in a very unsatisfactory position, and I ask on behalf of the west coast of England that we should have fair play in the trials that do take place. They are fishermen, and if they are not Irishmen, at least they are Britishers, and they have full right to receive justice at the hands of the Court. The Member for East Waterford also urged that the Admiralty should police these waters and that the Scottish precedent should be established in Ireland. I earnestly hope that the Admiralty will not listen to a plea such as that, because if there is one injustice at the present time greater than another that British subjects suffer, it is the injustice which is being perpetrated by a large stretch of water being policed by British gunboats, for the exclusive advantage of foreigners. If we adopt that precedent and have British cruisers or gunboats or patrol boats in the place of police, I am afraid that a greater wrong will be done than has been done along the coast of Scotland. I think the Government should find proper police boats for Ireland, as they find in other places, and that they should not be under the Admiralty, but under the right hon. Gentleman and his Department and responsible to him for the service that they render. I hope when he addresses the House he will allay the feeling that there is amongst west coast fishermen as to the way in which they are treated whenever they go down to the coast of Ireland on a fishing expedition. I hope they will be treated with equity and justice in the courts of Ireland.

I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Department what he proposes to do with the island of Rathlin? I need not tell him very much about it, as possibly he is as familiar with it as I am. I may tell the House, however, that often in winter, for as long as three weeks at a time, no boats can get into their own harbour, and they have not a harbour in any proper sense. The nearest point is Bally-castle, five and a half or six miles off, and that harbour is closed. I may say that it is only an excuse for a harbour—a little stone jetty, on which a wall is built on the north-west, and the fishermen are unable to get in in a storm. The result is that the island of Rathlin is without medical aid for three or four weeks at a time. Last year, even in August, a nurse was going out to take care of a sick man, and but for the fact that the boat of the Department came to take her out she might have remained there for several days.

I believe that if a pier were built at Rathlin it might be restored to its old position. The present population is only one-third of what it was 40 or 50 years ago, when it numbered considerably over 1,000. It is now 350 or 360. If it were provided with a pier it would attract Scotch tourists, because there is a line of steamers from Glasgow to Portrush in the summer, and I understand that the company would be quite willing to call at Rathlin. If they did this would tend to support the present population and give them some comfort. It is a marvel at present to know how the people do live, and they are exposed to perhaps one of the worst seas on the north coast of Ireland. It is the most extreme north island in Ireland, and it is just at the point where the tides from the southeast and the north-west meet, and even in ordinary weather it is quite a feat for an ordinary small boat to sail round the island.

I hope Rathlin will not be forgotten by the Department, and I am sure the Vice-President will get lasting thanks from the people there if he can see his way to provide them with a suitable pier for getting in and out of the island. It is also very necessary to provide a small cheap harbour for the fishermen at Portrush. They have no harbour except by going round to the south, which is practically unavailing in stormy weather. There is in the northwest a suitable place which only requires a few hundred pounds spent on it, and I hope the Department will provide something which will help these men to earn their living.

About 12 months ago we had a discussion on the Irish Fisheries, and the Secretary for Ireland said we had a good debate, but nothing came of it, and nothing has been done for the Irish fisheries since. The right hon. Gentleman was also good enough to say that Wexford was a place deserving some consideration. The only consideration that Wexford has since obtained, so far as I know, is that the fishermen got a loan of £25 to repair their boats. To be sure, we had a visit from the President of the Department, and we were very glad to see him amongst us. We were charmed by his eloquence, but he told us he had no money for our piers and harbours. He visited Fethard. It has a little dock which was built over a hundred years ago. The right hon. Gentleman saw there as fine a set of fishermen as ever he saw in his life, strong, daring, industrious men who would make a living out of the fishing if they had any accommodation for their boats. These men during six or seven months of the year have to pull up their boats on dry land, and they themselves have to go away to sea sometimes on long voyages to make a living for themselves and their families, while they would be much better employed at home on their plots of land. The Vice-President, though he said he had no money, excited hopes in us that he would remember us whenever he had any funds at his disposal. Many millions of money have been spent on piers and harbours in Great Britain in recent years. Why grudge a few thousand pounds to Irish piers and harbours? In a previous debate the Chief Secretary said that when money was laid out for the purpose of developing fisheries in England the Treasury supplied one-third of the money, and the other two-thirds was supplied by the local people. I do not think we fare nearly so well as that in Ireland. I know we do not in Wexford. Since the county council took over the piers and harbours from the old grand jury they have expended nearly £4,500, and only £995 of this is supplied by the Department. I do not blame the Board because it is itself starved. Only £10,000 is voted annually for it, and it takes £6,000 of that to police the coast. I respectfully suggest, as I have done on several previous occasions, that the coast should be policed by the small vessels belonging to the fleet. What has been done for Irish fisheries? If we deduct £250,000, which is our own money, as it was taken from the Irish Church surplus, the remainder devoted to the development of Irish Fisheries is a mere bagatelle as compared with the amount expended for a like promise in Great Britain. The result of that is the reduction of fishing boats and fishermen. The latest fishery report issued is no exception to its predecessors, for we find there are 64 vessels fewer engaged in the fishery in 1907 than in 1906, and the decrease in fishermen and boys during the same period was 389. The state of the Wexford piers and harbours applies more or less to the piers and harbours all along the Irish coast. Formerly there was a pier at a place called St. Helens, in the neighbourhood of Rosslare, a new harbour erected for the mail boats. Now it is only a heap of stones, with the waves breaking through. A few fishermen cling round the place because the fishing ground is good. Carne pier, also in the, neighbourhood of Rosslare, affords no protection to the fishermen, and their boats have to be pulled up on the dry land. Besides the local landlord claims a royalty on everything landed at the pier. Rosslare harbour itself does not afford sufficient protection for the fishermen's boats, particularly when the wind is north-west, so that we have not a single safe harbour on the coast of Wexford capable of admitting a vessel over 30 tons at low water. I have pointed out in a former debate that Wexford harbour was silting up, and that vessels frequently have to go away to other ports to discharge their cargo. At that time we had two cross-channel steamers. Now one of these steamers has been withdrawn, owing to the state of the bar and the high rate of insurance that had to be paid to meet the risks on Wexford bar. This is a loss of about £1,000 a year to the port of Wexford. And piers and harbours are not everything. We want up-to-date fishing vessels whether they are motor-boats or steam trawlers, and we want up-to-date fishing methods. A small boat with two or three hands is of very little use in fishing grounds that are being swept by steam trawlers. The steam trawlers that fish around our coasts are always on the watch to make a dash into prohibited waters. They frequently succeed in doing so, because one small armed vessel cannot possibly protect 2,200 miles of coast line. I have heard in this debate that there are two small armed vessels, but I think that the second only joins in once in a while. I was sorry to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer say last night that the part of Ireland was to receive but not to contribute to the good things that were to be distributed. That is an extraordinary statement in face of the well-established fact that Ireland contributes annually a sum of £3,000,000 to the support of the realm over and above her just share of the taxes. What we are asking this increased money from is Irish money. We are asking for part of our own money to develop our fisheries. I pointed out also on the last occasion on which I spoke on the subject of Irish fisheries that once we had a splendid oyster bed in the vicinity of Wexford Harbour; and I asked that it should be examined and relaid and protected. It was once the source of a big industry in Wexford, but now there is not even one oyster boat fishing there constantly. There is also the question of the inland fisheries. I was the first to suggest in this House that all important Irish rivers should be supplied with salmon hatcheries. Nine or ten of the principal rivers have been supplied with them, but the Slaney, though one of the principal rivers, is still without them. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider that matter, and see if he cannot supply the river Slaney with a salmon hatchery.

I am very glad to assist in the work of pressing the claims of Irish fisheries for a larger grant from the Treasury, and I quite agree with the suggestion made by the hon. Member who has just spoken. We do feel that the £10,000 per annum at present at our disposal for this work is utterly inadequate for what has to be done; and as £6,000 of that £10,000 is spent on a very inadequate attempt to do the necessary protective service around our coast, the result is that very little of the total sum is left for other developments. I hope, though I confess I am not very sanguine, that the representations which have been made this afternoon will enable the Vice-President so to impress the Treasury that if not now, at least in the near future we may have a somewhat adequate grant to foster and protect this important industry. Reference has been made this afternoon to some developments that have taken place. The last hon. Member who addessed the House referred to the fact, and drew a conclusion from it which I think is hardly warranted, that we have actually fewer fishing boats in 1907 than in 1906. I happen to know that the explanation of that is that there has been a desire among the fishermen to adapt themselves to modern methods and that small boats have been giving place to larger and more up-to-date boats. In that connection I was glad to remember that in the part of the country which I have the honour to represent we have some fishermen who have found their calling so satisfactory that they have out of their own means been enabled to modernise their boats and implements, and the result, I understand, is entirely satisfactory.

The hon. Member for Grimsby referred to prosecutions which have recently taken place against trawlers, I think particularly in the northern districts of Ireland. I happen to know something of these prosecutions, and in the case which I think he referred to, and in connection with which he said it was impossible for landsmen to tell whether a trawler was within the three-mile limit or not, I think I am correct in saying that it was abundantly proved in evidence that that particular steam trawler that was so heavily fined was caught fishing within one mile of the sea coast; and looking upon that water as reserved for the local fishermen, I think that the fine imposed by the local magistrates was not at all excessive, and was most abundantly deserved. We in the North of Ireland have no desire to be unreasonable as regards steam trawling. We recognise that it is a modern development called for by the increase in that great industry. Still, Parliament in its wisdom has laid down that these trawlers are not to come within three miles of the sea coast, and that that is the preserve of our home fishermen. We are anxious that that preserve should remain intact for them. And I think it will be found en further inquiry that under no circumstances have our magistrates in any way exceeded what is judicial in imposing the substantial fines which they have imposed. I only hope as a result of this discussion that we shall before very long have an adequate sum placed at the disposal of this Department. Once we have better policing and the Department is placed in funds to enable them to encourage our fishermen to go in for modern and up to date boats the present state of this great industry will rapidly be improved.

We are not actuated by any such hostility to the fishermen as has been suggested. We are friends of the fishermen, but there are fishermen and fishermen; and we like our own fishermen best. We have no objection to this fishing and trawling, so long as it is conducted in the right place, and so far as we are concerned, that is, three Irish miles from the Irish shore. The hon. Baronet spoke about the evidence—I hold no brief for the parties—on which these fishermen were convicted. I know nothing about it. But I imagine the evidence was the best procurable, and probably the only evidence procurable. That exactly brings me to the point at issue. The only evidence we can offer in 9 cases out of 10 must be the evidence of people on land, because we have not got the means of properly policing the waters. If we had Government boats, or boats such as they have in Scotland, to cruise about the waters, and see where the trawlers really were, there would be no difficulty in arriving at a proper estimate as to where the fishermen were.

One point which amazed me somewhat, was one made by the hon. Baronet. One hears many curious proposals made in this House, but the hon. Baronet suggested that this House should take seriously into consideration the solicitors' bills in connection with these trawling prosecutions. Well, of all the things which this House has attempted, I think it would come off worse in this question of solicitors' bills to—define—

We must remember that this House is one of the very best friends the solicitor ever had. If it were not for this House many solicitors could not exist, and to ask this House or any Department of it to seriously propose to shorten solicitors' bills—well, you might as well ask for the moon.

My hon. Friend who introduced this subject has the very good fortune to represent a county which is in an extremely satisfactory condition so far as this fishing question is concerned. I have had the great pleasure of seeing something of the development of the county of Donegal, its magnificent coast line, its wonderful harbours; but perhaps the thing that pleased me more than anything else was the magnificent fishing fleet which frequents those harbours. Donegal and, indeed, other parts of the west of Ireland are examples of the magnificent success which has attended the working of the Congesed Districts Board in Ireland. It shows what can be done if the matter is gone about in the right way, and it may perhaps cheer the heart of the hon. Baronet the Member for Grimsby and give him an idea of what we intend to do when we get the opportunity. I come from a part of the world which is the exact antithesis of Donegal in the matter of fisheries. What I say must not be understood to attach any blame whatever to the Congested Districts Board, or to the Department of Agriculture. I have had a very long experience—twenty years—of the Congested Districts Board and of the Fisheries Department ever since it was formed. Neither of these Departments can do more than they have done. Perhaps these two Departments are absolutely the best Departments we have in Ireland, because the work they have done is done from the heart.

My particular contribution to to-night s discussion will have relation to the Board of Agriculture. There are a number of districts which are outside the purview of the Congested Districts Board. I do not want to say nothing has been done; but practically little has been done to foster the fishing industry. There exists in these districts an indigenous fishing population. They have existed there from time immemorial. They have developed the fisheries under the Irish Government, and generation after generation have earned their living by so doing. These districts have gone down almost in exact proportion, in similar ratio, as the congested districts have gone up, because the facilities which were offered to the other districts could not be offered to them. The Department of Agriculture has always been extremely well inclined, been most sympathetic, and done what they could. They gave £10,000, but this was utterly inadequate. We ought to have half a dozen cruisers, a dredger or two, and other facilities. The engineering department of the Board of Agriculture is not properly equipped. We want a more numerous staff and better pay for the staff; and we want more money given to the Department for the express purpose of carrying on engineering undertakings. I notice there is always a smile from the official heads whenever the question of money is raised. Nothing can be done without it in this wicked world. What is being done in the congested districts shows what a useful thing it is sometimes to spend money in the right way. I have a proposition to put before the Government. Not very long ago the Chief Secretary for Ireland told me frankly that he had no money for this matter. I appreciate his honesty and candour when he told us mat there was not the least chance of giving us any money this year for Irish fisheries. But there is another way in which we can get the money. The hon. Member who introduced this matter suggested that £100,000 would be sufficient to substantially help the fishing industry in Ireland. I am sorry to say I am more ambitious. I think it would be a most excellent resolution to spend £1,000,000 around the Irish coasts. The representative of the Treasury nods his head. He has no money. I believe we are going to give him £48,000,000 to-night.

And it being fifteen minutes past Eight of the clock, and there being private business, the debate stood adjourned.

Private Business

London County Council (General Powers) Bill

moved: "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to omit Sub-section 32 of Clause 30." I had better read the clause to the House, because it will show one of the reasons why I desire to omit Section 32. Clause 30 contains provisions with respect to buildings of iron and steel skeleton construction. Section 32, which I desire to see omitted, is as follows:—

"Any person dissatisfied with any requirement or decision of the district surveyor under this section may appeal to the council whose determination shall be final."

My hon. Friend behind me will try to make out that the surveyor is not a servant of the London County Council, but I would point out that part of a surveyor's salary is paid by the county council, and the only reason that can be advanced for saying that he is not the servant of the county council is that there is some doubt as to whose service he is enlisted in. But I have shown that to all intents and purposes he is the servant of the county council, who appoint him and pay part of his salary. The first part of Clause 30, subject to this section, will apply to reinforced concrete buildings, but Parliament will not know, if it passes the Bill with this sub-section in it, what requirements the county council may make, and those requirements when made will be enforced by the surveyor, and the unfortunate builder in London or the owner of property who considers that the surveyor is making vexatious and troublesome requirements can appeal only to the surveyor's employers, the London County Council. In the London Building Act of 1894, which was brought in by the party opposite, there is provision for appeal. By Section 175 of that Act a special tribunal of appeal is constituted, consisting of three members, nominated respectively by the Secretary of State, the Royal Institute of British Architects, and the Surveyors' Institute. In my opinion, that is a proper appellate body, and I see no reason why there should be two different classes of appeal—one under the ordinary Building Acts, and one dealing with buildings of stone and brick, including reinforced concrete building.

These reinforced concrete buildings may create a revolution in building in London, and therefore it is necessary that there should be no artificial restriction or anything which is likely to discourage people from going in for that sort of building should be passed by the House of Commons. The London County Council, in a circular which they issued when my Instruction appeared on the paper, giving reasons against accepting it. They said that an appeal was desirable, and that if the Instruction was carried there would be no appeal. The London County Council have made a mistake. The result of my Instruction would be to really leave out the sub-section. I have carefully avoided, in drawing up my Instruction, hampering the Committee in coming to a decision as to whether there ought be an appeal committee, or who the appeal committee should consist of. All I have done is to say that the appeal court, if there be one, shall not consist of the London County Council. There is nothing, if my Instruction is carried, to prevent the London County Council recommending that there should be an appeal court consisting of certain people. There is nothing to prevent the committee from inserting a clause of their own establishing an appeal court on the lines of the Act of 1894 or on any other lines they like. I specially drew my Instruction in that way, because I thought it was wiser that the Committee should settle what the court of appeal should be than that we should settle it across the floor of the House. I believe it is against the interests of the county council themselves, and against the interests of everybody in this great town, or anywhere else, that we should decide that there should be an appeal from one body to the same body. This question is one of great importance, and I hope the House will accept my Instruction.

I beg to second the Instruction. I have put in nine years hard work on the London County Council, and I continue to take great interest in its proceedings. I want to save the London County Council from itself, because I cannot help thinking that it is this question which makes the London County Council more unpopular in London than anything else. It is the annoyance to which the people of London are subjected by receiving these notices from district surveyors in which some trifling defect in building, or some other trifling defect, is mentioned on which a small sum has to be expended, and then some two or three months later, when the householder has forgotten all about it, a demand comes from the London County Council in which it is demanded of him a fee for the district surveyor out of all proportion to the amount of work involved. It is proposed under this Bill that the appeal should be not to any outside authority, but to the London County Council itself.

If you asked any man in the street as to whom he thought was the master of the district surveyor, he would tell you it was the county council. The district surveyor uses London County Council on his notepaper and notices. He is paid partly by the county council, he is appointed by the county council, and the majority of the people think he is the servant of the county council. Therefore, I appeal to the House for a different tribunal than the county council to be appointed to settle these matters. I believe this has done more to make the county council unpopular than anything else. It is not the largeness of the amount of the claims but the way it comes from those district surveyors, and which causes me to suggest that the tribunal should be some other.

I would like to point out that this section which has been referred to lays down definite rules, and there is no question of the county council laying down bye-laws under that section. The only bye-laws they can lay down are under the next section—not bye-laws, but regulations, in the case of ferroconcrete. The reason we ask for the power to make regulations in that case is that the present state of knowledge is not sufficiently great to justify fixed rules being laid down. It is important for the House to understand that you are not in any way giving the county council carte blanche in the matter. Their rules are definitely laid down, and the district surveyors will only have to interpret those rules. The hon. Baronet, I am glad to recognise, realises that the power of appeal is necessary, and therefore the question at issue narrows itself down to that of who is the right tribunal to decide appeals from the district surveyors.

I am not going to lay any stress on the point that the district surveyors professthat they are not officers of the council, though I think there is a certain amount in the contention, because there are a great many matters which they decide which are absolute decisions, and from which there are no powers of appeal to any other body, the county council or otherwise. I would like to correct the hon. Baronet in one statement he made. He said that all appeals under the Act of 1894 laid to the tribunal of appeal. I should like to point out that the decisions of the district surveyor are not absolute, and the appellate tribunal is not only the tribunal of appeal, but three other tribunals as well. In some cases the decisions of the district surveyor can be taken on appeal to the superintendent architect, in others to the tribunal of appeal, and in other cases to an arbitrator, and in a very large number of cases to a petty sessional court. It is not the fact that the tribunal of appeal is the only authority which can upset the decisions of the district surveyors. There are no less than five different authorities who hear appeals of various kinds under the London Building Acts, and I do not think that it is possible for this House at this stage of the Bill to decide which is the best tribunal to decide these matters.

Under this particular section the county council only propose that appeals should be taken to them on the interpretation of the Act. They do not wish to have any powers of upsetting the decisions of the district surveyors on the ground of reasonableness or otherwise of those decisions; and if, as the hon. Baronet says, that is not laid down in the section, the county council are anxious to put it out of all question by altering the drafting. Generally speaking, the questions about which appeal lies to the tribunal of appeal are not questions of interpretation. They only deal with questions such as the direction of streets, the width of streets, the building lines, and so on, which are in the discretion of the county council. Therefore it is a great innovation to give to this tribunal the power of deciding matters of this kind, which really consist in the interpretation of definite rules. They do not at the present time interpret definite rules.

I do not wish to hinder the Committee on the Bill in deciding to whom the appeal should be. All I want is to prevent the London County Council from appealing from themselves to themselves. My Instruction will not prevent any of the statements made by my hon. Friend being carried out by the Committee upstairs.

I misunderstood, as he mentioned the fact that at present the decisions of the district surveyors could only be upset by the tribunal of appeal. I took it he was advocating that body should be entrusted with full jurisdiction under this section. My point is it is a very complicated question, which ought not to be decided by this House in view of the insufficient knowledge which they must necessarily possess. Very technical matters will come up for discussion under this section. Under subsection 21 of this section provisions are laid down as to the stress to be carried by iron pillars. That is a matter which needs a very great deal of technical knowledge to decide, and the county council believe it would be to the advantage of the builders if they could appeal from the district surveyor to some authority which has a knowledge of engineering matters. Under section 24 there is a question of the amount of foundation which is necessary to take the load which is borne by a column. That is a matter which cannot be decided by a magistrate or by anybody who has not technical knowledge. It is a mathematical matter to measure up the loads borne by these columns, and it is absolutely essential that, whatever be the authority, it should have the advantage of technical advice, and the opportunity of consulting engineers. The Courts of Petty Session, who now decide many matters of appeal under the present Act, have no advantage of that kind. Therefore, they obviously are not fitted to be constituted the appeal authority for the majority of cases which will arise under section 30. The other authority which many Members think is most suitable is that known as the tribunal of appeal under the London Building Act, 1894. This tribunal consists of three members, one appointed by the Home Office (at present a barrister), another appointed by the Surveyors' Institute, and the third by the Royal Institute of British Architects. This is a very expensive body, because it is paid by the hour. No case which goes to it can possibly be decided for less than nine guineas, because every member is paid three guineas an hour for the first hour, and two guineas for every subsequent hour; so that even if a case were decided in one hour, which is not very probable, the cost would be at least nine guineas. As a matter of fact, the tribunal of appeal has had very little work to do, in the last 14 years only 153 appeals having been decided, but the cost in the last year was no less than £1,100. Obviously, an authority of this kind is not suitable to decide matters of petty administration. It is far too costly, and as the members are engaged in private practice they have to find a time mutually convenient to the three of them to hear appeals. It is obvious, therefore, that great delay-will occur if this is made the tribunal of appeal, and there will be great inconvenience caused to builders who wish to get a decision before starting their work. Quite apart from the cost, the amount which would be lost in the annual value of the sites while these matters were pending would be enormous. This body is no doubt well qualified to decide certain architectural matters, but it does not include any engineer, and the majority of the points which will arise under section 30 of the General Powers Bill are matters, primarily for an engineer. I submit, therefore, that a body which has no engineering experience, and has not the advantage of the advice of a skilled engineer, is not a suitable body to be given an appeal of this kind. I think the Building Act Committee of the London County Council is the best body which at the moment can be suggested. They are free from most of the objections which can be urged against these other bodies. They meet every week for about nine months of the year, when the London County Council is in session, and they are qualified to deal with a very large number of cases. The committee and its sub-committees deal with about 200 cases every week. Moreover, it is a very cheap tribunal, no fees whatever being charged, and it has the advantage of technical advisers. Further, it is a consideration which builders ought to bear in mind that it is to their advantage that appeals should lie to that body which has the dispensing power from the provisions of this section. If there is a difference of opinion between a builder and a district surveyor, and the matter is brought to the County Council, under this provision the Council may say. "Under section 32 we believe the district surveyor is right, and that you are not within the letter of the law, but, at the same time, we will favourably consider the matter if under sub-section 33 you make application to us for a relaxation of the strict letter of the section." I think I have said enough to show that it is not by any means a simple question, and that therefore this matter had better be left to the decision of the Committee. On behalf of the promoters, I can say that any points put forward will meet with very sympathetic consideration indeed. Before bringing in this legislation the London County Council took the advice of a conference, at which all the bodies interested in building in London were represented, and they conceded to that conference 23 points, refusing only three. It is clear, therefore, that the Council has not approached this question in any obstinate spirit. It is only too ready to receive any suggestions for facilitating the operation of the measure. My hon. Friend has not put forward any practicable suggestion as to what ought to be the tribunal of appeal; he has only said that it ought not to be the London County Council.

I think he might also leave it to the Committee to decide whether, in some cases, the London County Council itself should not be the tribunal of appeal. If the Committee can find any way to distinguish between broad matters of principle which would have permanent bearing on questions to be brought up in the future, and can send those questions for decision to one body, while retaining to the London County Council the decision in matters of petty administration, I think they ought to have a free hand to put forward such proposals. But if this Instruction is carried, the London County Council will not be allowed to decide even those small matters which, on the analogy of the present Building Act ought to go to them. To send all cases to petty sessions or to the tribunal of appeal would be very costly, and would involve builders in a large amount of inconvenience owing to delay. I ask the House, therefore, not to accept the Instruction, but to let the Committee consider the matter on its merits, unhampered by any lead from the House.

For over 12 months I sat as chairman of the Building Act Committee of the London County Council, and I am extremely surprised to learn the view that is taken by the hon. Baronet in connection with this matter. The basis of his complaint, and, as I gather, of the complaint of everybody who is supporting him, is that the district surveyor is the servant of the county council. To anybody who has worked on the Building Act Committee, the suggestion that the district surveyor is the servant of the county council is perfectly ridiculous.

The district surveyor was in existence before the county council was created. He is appointed by statute, and paid by fees regulated by statute. I think the hon. Baronet is wrong in saying that the district surveyor is partly paid by the county council. I do not think he is paid anything by the county council unless they have building operations going on, when they will have to pay him fees in respect of them. As a matter of fact the county council cannot dismiss him, he has a separate office of his own for which he himself pays, and the county council have no control whatever over him.

The county council appoint him, because he has to be appointed by somebody, but the minute he is appointed he is absolutely free of the council. The county council cannot dismiss him except for gross misconduct, when they would be liable for damages if they made a mistake.

They could not possibly take it up unless it was absolutely very grave misconduct, and even then it is very doubtful if they could. That being so, I may explain what the functions of the district surveyor are in connection with this matter. Every building owner who wants to put up a building of any description in London has under statute to submit his plans to the district surveyor. The district surveyor has to determine one thing and one thing only, namely, whether they comply with the statute or not. If they comply with the statute, then the work goes forward without anybody else having any say in the matter. If they do not comply with the statute the district surveyor informs the building owner to that effect, and the building owner either alters the plans or he appeals to one of the bodies mentioned by the previous, speaker. There is no suggestion to alter that law. The only difference is that we are now endeavouring to legalise a form of building which is not legal under the present law, and we do not intend to alter the law with reference to appeal. The hon. Baronet opposite wants apparently to adopt a system of appeal from the district surveyor to another form of tribunal. I think the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds has disposed of that. It would be "Out of the frying pan into the fire" for the building owner It would be extremely expensive. If you go to the county council there is absolutely no cost of any description. I think this is such a technical and detailed matter that it had far better be left for the Committee to decide. I am not prepared to suggest—I certainly deprecate very strongly—that the House itself should attempt to decide a difficult and technical matter of this kind. The hon. Baronet says we are only striking the clause out of this Bill, and that the Committee can presumably re-insert it. He says that if the clause is struck out, it is possible that the Committee may decide that it should be re-inserted. On the other hand, the Committee may overlook it altogether.

The hon. Member does not understand the position. If we strike it out the Committee could not reinsert it. What the Committee could do would be to put in a clause in another form providing an appeal. I have consulted Mr. Speaker's counsel on this matter, and I am informed that that could be done. What I propose has nothing to do with stopping the Bill. It leaves to the Committee the privilege and power of inserting a clause to set up an Appeal Court provided it is not the London County Council.

I think the hon. Baronet misunderstood me. I quite agree with him that if the House now strikes out this clause the Committee could not reinsert it in the words in which it stands at present, and what I suggest is that if the House strikes out the clause now the Committee will not touch the subject at all, and the result will be that there will be no appeal from a district surveyor. I think if the House strikes the clause out the Committee will say, "Well, the House has decided the question of appeal, and we will not interfere in the matter at all." If the House leaves in the clause the Committee can alter, vary, or omit it after hearing evidence from the various technical and interested people on the whole subject. I think that would be a far more satisfactory arrangement. It is a very technical question, and I think the House would be well advised to leave the clause as it is. I can support the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds in saying that any suggestion for the improvement of the form of appeal will receive a most sympathetic hearing, but if you strike out the clause, I think there is a fair chance that you will have no appeal at all.

The hon. Baronet is fully aware from the speech I made when last this subject was before the House that I go with him in a certain direction in the object he has in view. Having said that, I do appeal to him not to defeat the object he has in view, namely, the institution of a better form of tribunal of appeal than now exists, by pressing the Instruction further on the House than he has already done. The strength of the hon. Baronet's case exists in sentiment only. There is a strong case for the view that a body which has the decision of a question should not be a court of appeal unto itself. If the matter were left there, there would be something to be said theoretically and sentimentally in support of his contention, but is it not a fact that the district surveyor is not an officer of the county council? He is not an officer like the architect or the engineer of the county council. He is not appointed, paid, subject to dismissal by, and working under the administrative rules of the county council. The fact is that I am not particularly enamoured either with the district surveyor as he now is or as the hon. Baronet would like to make him. Hon. Members who have spoken appear to be satisfied, but my own view, and I expressed it many years ago, is that the district surveyor ought to be an officer of the council, paid, appointed, and subject to dismissal by that body, without the statutory conditions under which he now works, and without the extra county council jurisdiction under which he carries out the whole of his duties. But that subject is not before us. We have to deal with the fact that this particular district surveyor against whose decision an appeal is desired was in existence long before the county council was created. The county council had nothing to do with his appointment, and to the credit of the county council they have done their best to simplify his functions and jurisdictions, and beyond clear sentiment the hon. Baronet has really not said much in support of his view. May I illustrate what I mean? See what happens now. The surveyor, who is more or less a judicial officer, is independent of the county council. I hope the day is not far distant when fees will be abolished, and when the district surveyor with private practice will be abolished. What happens now is that the district surveyor is a law to himself. He is kept in order on some points by the superintendent architect, in exceptional cases by an independent arbitrator, by the Petty Sessional Court, and in some, but not many, cases by the High Court itself upon important legal points. This in practice means delay. It means inconvenience to the builder. It means needless expense and irritation, which I trust may be removed. I think it is sufficient for us to have listened to the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds, who has pointed out that the proposal in the Bill is the only alternative suggested to the present method, which experience has shown is not so satisfactory as it should be either to the district surveyor on the one side or the tribunal of appeal on the other. Is this is a technical matter, and as the county council's representatives will not deny a locus standi to anybody affected when the Bill goes before the Committee upstairs, and as it is a matter which a Parliamentary Committee alone should determine, I suggest to the hon. Baronet that he should be content with the speech he has made. I am convinced that the persons affected will be fairly heard by the Committee. I am convinced that the Select Committee will perhaps modify the Bill to some extent in the direction in which the hon. Baronet is anxious that it should be modified.

This is a proposal which we have no right to brush on one side. It is a proposal in the interests of economy and of promptitude, and, above all, for the convenience of builders, especially of small builders, who have a right to quicker business than that sketched out by three gentlemen receiving £3 per hour, and after the first hour £2 per hour, a costly, cumbersome, and archaic tribunal. If there is to be an appeal from the district surveyor, who is not wholly an officer of the council, there may be a desire that the county council should be the tribunal. My advice to the hon. Baronet is: let this Bill go to a Committee, and unless the county council deals with sub-section 32 the matter of changing the tribunal would not technically be before the Committee. Therefore if the chairman was to give a technical ruling the question of an alternative tribunal appeal would not come before the Committee. When the Committee had threshed this out I, probably in the interests of good government, consistent with justice to all parties, might have something to say when the Bill comes from the Committee. I appeal to the hon. Baronet not to press this further, but let it be dealt with by the only body competent to decide after hearing evidence.

I understand that the right hon. Gentleman desires me to withdraw this Instruction in order to give an absolutely free hand to the Committee. I understand that he does not altogether approve of this sub-section. I understand, also, that he might be induced to consider on the Report stage, if no alteration is made, whether it would be advisable to ask the House to make an alteration. I understand that if no change is made in this clause by the Committee the right hon. Gentleman will consider on the Report stage any Amendment I may bring forward. On that understanding I will withdraw my Instruction.

I believe this clause must be altered, and I believe it will, and I can assure the hon. Baronet that when it comes down from the Committee upstairs I shall be as amenable to common sense and as susceptible to any reasonable argument as I have shown myself to-night and on previous occasions.

On that understanding, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

proposed, "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to omit sub-section 1 of clause 35."

[Clause 35 deals with an extension of time for compulsory purchase of land, and sub-section 1 is as follows:—"(1) The time limited by the London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Act, 1903, as extended by the London County Council (General Powers) Act, 1906, for the compulsory purchase of lands for the widenings at Southamptonrow, described in and authorised by the said London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Act, 1903, is hereby further extended till the ninth day of August, one thousand nine hundred and twelve."]

The Instruction which I beg to submit to the House will, I hope, be considered from its practical point of view. The county council in 1902 gave notice that powers were to be sought from Parliament for carrying out improvements in a certain district in my Constituency. We have heard a great many complaints against the London County Council of the way in which they are carrying out improvements. If the grounds for those complaints are as serious as in this instance, they are very much justified. In 1903 powers were given by this House for the purpose of the improvements. The county council purchased large interests. Then they stopped and did nothing until 1906. Then they came to this House and asked for an extension of their powers, and an extension was granted them to 1909. For the last three years not a single step has been made by the county council towards carrying out the powers granted them, and the reason given by the council is that if they wait long enough they will be able to acquire the short leaseholders' interest without paying any compensation. I venture to say, if any such intention had been admitted or stated when the powers were applied for in the first instance, they would not have been given to the county council by this House. The committee of the county council told us plainly that it was their intention to proceed with the purchase of the few interests left, and yet they apply for an extension of time for another three years, while admitting that they do not intend to do anything within the next six years. My hon. Friend who spoke for the county council when I raised this on the second reading said many of the leases would fall in within the next few months. My hon. Friend must have spoken without having satisfied himself of the facts of the case, because there are no leases falling in within the next few months. The first lease falling in will be in five years' time, and the three large interests will not fall in—the first for 17 years, the next for 26 years, and the third for 33⅓ years. So that a small sum is all that is required now to purchase the majority of the leases remaining, and un- less the council really mean to extend, or to apply for an extension of time indefinitely for the compulsory purchase powers they have, they will not be able to make any advantage as regards money saving by the extension of time they are asking for now. This seems to be a new way to carry out the improvement of London. These improvements are urgently required, not only by the locality, but by the whole of London, and they were rendered more urgent by the opening of Kingsway. So great is the congestion of traffic that the police refuse to allow the tradesmen to have vans at their doors to take up or put down goods. Not only that, but they are not able to carry out any improvements for the purpose of bringing their premises up to modern re-requirements because, for the sake of a few pounds, the London County Council have acquired the ground interest. Surely there could be no greater abuse of the power granted by a Committee of this House. They admit they will have to come again and again to the House. I say that this House, which is the only court to which we can appeal, ought to see once and for all when they give powers for the carrying out of a definite and urgent improvement that these powers should not be abused as they are being by the county council, and that the residents of the locality should not have to put up with the great inconvenience that they are suffering. It is true that the Constituency for which I have the honour to sit is affected as well as the rest of London. I feel sure I have the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board with me in my protest against the way in which the powers granted to the county council for a specific purpose are being utilised for another. There is a large sum of £60,000 or £70,000 sunk in this improvement lying idle. The only return is from a few casual short tenancies granted to anyone who comes along to take them. The county council have purchased some of the large leasehold interests in this area. These leaseholds can only be utilised for weekly, fortnightly, or monthly tenancies. The sort of tenants they get are very much objected to by the neighbours. They damage the neighbouring property in their delay in carrying out these improvements. I hope the House will see that when granting privileges for specific purposes they will insist that they are not utilised for other purposes. I hope the House will not grant the request now asked by the council of enabling them to further postpone the carrying out of these improvements.

The hon. Member for Holborn said that the action of the London County Council in asking for this extension of powers constituted a new principle. It is a principle which goes back to the year 1891, for under the General Powers Act of that year powers were taken compulsorily to acquire property in connection with the widening of St. George's - place, Knightsbridge, and in that case the London County Council had not only to come back twice for an extension of the period during which they might exercise these powers, but they had to come back four times. So that the period for compulsory purchase, which was originally granted for three years was extended to 13 years.

Yes, but I am dealing with the statement that this was a new principle. The hon. Member gave us rather to understand that Parliament would not have granted these powers if they had known it was not proposed to put them into force within the period of three years originally asked for, but he did not produce any evidence in favour of that statement. The reason three years were asked for was because that is the usual period which is taken under all these Acts. Of course, it would be competent for the House to give a longer period, but the county council was no doubt guided by precedent, and when they asked for three years they certainly gave no pledge that they would depart from the very usual practice of asking for an extension of time. The county council have already bought the freehold of this property, and they have also acquired those occupation leaseholds which have come into the market in the ordinary way.

Fourteen leasehold interests still remain. The first one of them expires next Michaelmas, and another two expire before the end of the three years. To be quite frank I think it is most likely that the London County Council will come back at the end of three years and ask for another two years' extension, because all but three of the 14 remaining leases expire not later than five years hence.

I am afraid I cannot, but I am quite certain that my information is accurate, because I had it from the valuer of the county council, who is the official responsible.

I hold the terms here and there is not one of them which expires at Michaelmas.

That is my information, and I do not think the hon. Member can dispute that eleven leases will expire during the next five years. We only ask for power for three, because there is no precedent for any local authority asking for a larger extension of the period than the period originally acquired. I should think it is quite certain that the London County Council will not ask the authorisation of Parliament to wait for the whole of these leases to expire, as my hon. Friend suggested. If we can get 11 leases by effluxion of time, we shall be quite content to pay for the rest under our powers of compulsory purchase. I would point out to the House that a very large cost will be entailed by compelling the county council to put through this matter immediately, and by refusing to grant the additional powers, so that these 11 leases may eventually fall to the council by effluxion of time. It is obviously inadvisable to give the figures which we expect to have to pay if we carry out the whole improvement at the present moment. We have the Arbitration Court, and, naturally, the figures which we have prepared have been prepared on the basis of former decisions of the Arbitration Court, and we are informed that the very large sum of money which will be necessary to carry out this improvement at the present time, when we should have to pay very heavy trade compensation, will be reduced by one-half, if we are allowed to have an extension of time for five years. And if we have extension of time for three years, which is all that we are asking for at the present time, the cost will be reduced at any rate by one-quarter. We have thus a consideration which the House ought to be guided by, because there is a limit to what can be done on public improvements in London, and it is the duty of the county council to do them in the most economical way. The hon. Member rather pointed out that we ought not to have gone into this matter unless we were going to carry it through at once. A portion of the Southampton-row widening has been carried through, and it is only that portion between Bloomsbury-place and Vernon-place which still remains to be completed.

No doubt it is the neck of the bottle, but by far the longest part of the bottle has been cleared, and there are means of lateral communication which have very largely improved the facilities of moving north and south. Naturally, every district is keen on its local improvements being carried out with the least possible delay, and I can quite understand the hon. Member's motive in bringing this forward. He is naturally inspired by the interests of his own Constituents. They are perfectly legitimate interests. But they are not the interests of the ratepayers of London, who have to look at this matter from the general point of view of the county rate.

The hon. Member will admit that the traffic through the Kingsway is a London matter.

I am not aware that the traffic in Kingsway is materially impeded by the delay in finishing the Southampton-row improvement.

I thought the hon. Member did not know that part of London, and now I know that the hon. Member knows nothing of that particular part of London.

I do not think my hon. Friend has proved that there is any congestion of Kingsway owing to this improvement. Again, the facilities for communication between the Strand and the end of Southampton-row have been very much improved, but that does not affect the question of Southampton-row itself. I do not think the hon. Member has made out any injustice to the leaseholders under the proposals of the London County Council, because the leaseholders have known perfectly well that there was no prospect of the leases being renewed. On the Bedford estate it is the usual practice not to renew these leases, but to rebuild as soon as they expire, and I think the London County Council should be allowed to judge of the urgency of this question, and to carry out the improvement on the most economical lines.

May I appeal to my hon. Friend the member for Holborn not to press this Instruction? To a great extent I associate myself with him in his complaint as to the necessity for this improvement being carried out as expeditiously as possible, not only with regard to this improvement, but to the one almost immediately within the precincts of this House— namely, the improvement from Lambeth Bridge to the corner close by. But may I point out to the Member for Holborn that if his Instruction were carried—and I have associated myself to a great extent with his complaint as to its reasonableness and its urgency, agreeing with him as I do on many points—he has selected the very worst course to carry out what he wishes to secure—that is, if clause 35 were struck out of the Bill, what would happen?—

May I answer the right hon. Gentleman? Everything is so ready, if the council intended to carry out the scheme which they would have to do, they can do it for the money.

There is no power that would compel the county council to do it; but what would happen is, if his Instruction were carried and clause 35 were omitted, the powers of the council to do it within the next 3, 5, 17, or 26 years, which he has suggested, would not come within their opportunity, and I do appeal to the hon. Member not to damnify the interests of his own locality, and not to prevent the possibility of this improvement being carried out in the shortest possible space of time—within the three or five years. I do ask him, agreeing as I do in-many ways with his complaint, to let this Bill go upstairs. If he presses this to a Division, I can see that this improvement will not be carried out for many years to come. As the London County Council only ask for a limited period of three years—not an unreasonable extension for such a vast sum—I would ask him to be content with his protest, and let the Bill go through.

I would like to point out this—that three years is no use, and that they cannot do it in the time. When the period has expired by effluxion of time they will have to come again, and it is playing with the House to treat the subject as it is proposed to do now. They cannot finish the work in three years; they must come again for an extension of time to complete it, and I must say that the way in which the council is proceeding today is nothing more or less than trifling with the privileges of this House. While I intend to withdraw my Motion on the strength of what the right hon. Gentleman said, I do earnestly press what I have put before them on the attention of this House.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill

Irish Harbours

Motion made, and Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a second time."—Debate resumed.

Sir THOMAS ESMONDE
(continuing his speech, which was interrupted under the Standing Order, at a quarter-past eight o'clock)

I have never missed an opportunity for years past in pressing upon the Department of Agriculture and the Congested Districts Board the importance of having as many of their fishing boats built in Ireland as they can. At present they have their boats built in Scotland and the Isle of Man, and no doubt they are excellent boats, but, when we can in Ireland build equally good boats I am strongly of the opinion that it would be good policy to build those boats there. Then, again, as to fishing requisites, such as nets and fishing gear and things of that kind, we can also make them in Ireland. The women round our coasts make excellent fishing nets, and have been used for generations to work at that industry, and it is a form of industry which is most deserving of encouragement. Therefore, I would impress upon the Department that they might do what they can to encourage the manufacture of nets and other fishing requisites in Ireland whenever they have the opportunity of doing so. There is another question which I might mention. Of late a good deal of attention has been devoted to the question of boating motors being applied to fishing boats, and I am extremely glad the Department of Agriculture have taken the lead in this matter. There is no doubt at all that there is a future for the motor-propelled fishing boat around our coasts, and all I can say with reference to that matter is that for what the Department of Agriculture have done I offer them my congratulations, and I hope they will continue to persevere in their efforts. Then, again, about freshwater fisheries. The fresh-water fisheries in Ireland have only received a kind of sporadic attention for a number of years past. I quite remember many years ago that I was a member of a Commission that inquired into the Irish fresh-water fisheries. I remember that the Chairman of that Commission was the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland, who was a very able and courteous gentleman, and among his other virtues is a follower of Isaak Walton. We went very extensively into this question, visited all the fresh-water fisheries of Ireland, and produced a voluminous report which was unanimous. We were unanimous in suggesting certain reforms, but the Report of that Commission, like the reports of a good many other Commissions which I remember, has produced no results so far, and I think it is almost time that this question were resuscitated, and some attention paid to it. I know that the Department of Agriculture is anxious to do so, and I should like to say that so far as I can assist them in any way, I shall be glad to do so, but I take this opportunity of impressing upon the Government the desirability of doing something in that direction.

In Ireland our fresh-water fisheries are only second to our sea fisheries, as a source of national wealth, and the country will pay for the encouragement and development of fresh-water fisheries. We have numberless streams, innumerable lakes, and a never failing water supply, and what we desire is that our lakes and rivers should be stocked, and fish culture should be gone into on a scientific basis and in a business-like way. Thus occupation would be given to hundreds of people who might follow this industry and add to their present means. It is perfectly plain what can be done by a small expenditure in this direction. I can remember some years ago when I visited New Zealand, which is a country something like Ireland though larger, although of course it had a number of lakes and streams, in these there were no fresh-water fish. But a beginning had to be made, and largely the initiative came from Irishmen who had emigrated to New Zealand. Fisheries were established and by degrees fresh-water fish were produced, and I learn now that the success of this undertaking has been perfectly marvellous, and that the fresh-water fishery in New Zealand is possibly the finest in the world. That is a good example, and will give us a good idea of what can be done in this direction, and therefore I hope the Department will do what it can to encourage, not only the stocking of our rivers but their proper preservation and the advancement of fresh-water fisheries generally.

In regard to raising money for the purpose of building piers and harbours round the Irish coast, I say that the work will require a million of money. I do not say that we shall require that money all at once, but we should require it by degrees, and I say that eventually a million of money would put our salt-water fisheries upon a working basis. Let me say also that I do not believe in giving money for nothing. I think that throwing public money away without any contribution from local funds is a most mistaken policy. So long as public money can be had and there are no local liabilities attaching to it or the expenditure of it, it is more than likely that the money will be wasted. No doubt a good deal of money has been wasted in Irish fisheries and Irish piers, but not in recent years, since the institution of the Congested Districts Board. In the old days, under the Board of Works, a great deal of money was unquestionably thrown away. I should like to refer to a very excellent system which obtained in Ireland for very many years, under which when a locality provided one-third of the cost for works the State found the other two-thirds. I am perfectly certain that if the Department of Agriculture were to go to the county council which wanted new works and say, "If you will produce one-third of the money we will produce two-thirds," there would be no difficulty in carrying through a number of schemes of marine engineering which would be of very great and practicable value. The way I would get the money would be this. Some years ago the late Government, at my suggestion, adopted the system of giving out the credit balances of Irish public departments at deposit interest. It was an excellent idea, and it has proved fruitful to some extent. I have not followed the question lately and I cannot say what is the annual amount of interest derived from this source, but inasmuch as I was the originator of the idea, I take the liberty of bringing the suggestion to the consideration of the Government, and, inasmuch as many other classes in Ireland have received assistance from the State, I think something ought to be done for a class which hitherto has received no assistance, the indigenous fishing population in districts outside the Congested Districts Board. If this deposit interest were earmarked for the purpose of developing Irish fisheries it would be quite posible to float a loan with the annual fruit thereof. Fifty thousand pounds, say, would get our living for us. There would be no difficulty what- ever in getting this money. I do not apply for Imperial credit or assistance from the British Treasury. We have quite enough of our own money in Ireland which could be used. I suggest that the Department should submit to the Treasury a scheme whereby deposit interest could be used for the financing of loans for the construction of marine works. They could easily get the money in Ireland, without going to the British Treasury at all, if they would adopt a system similar to that adopted in France whereby the public funds of the country can be held in the smallest quantities by anyone who likes to apply to the nearest post office. If this marine loan were issued in small quantities or were capable of being bought in small quantities by small investors—people who would invest £1, £2 or £3—and if the floating of the loans and the payment of interest and so forth were arranged for through the Post Office, or through the local Irish banks, the matter would be very easily managed. In that way we could use Irish money and Irish credit. I am anxious that something should be done, because I have an intimate knowledge of many of these fishing centres and year after year I see the population diminishing, and it is a great loss to the country, and we ought to do something to try and stop it.

Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present. House counted, and forty Members being found present—

I am anxious to hear what the right hon. Gentleman may have to say to my proposal. I would like him to explain it to the Treasury, and if I have not made myself clear I will be most happy to go into the matter with him, or with anybody representing the Treasury, and to show them that we can get this money without appealing to Imperial credit or asking for a single cent from any one.

The fishing industry has been for many years a staple item in the livelihood of a large proportion of the peasantry of Donegal, and I may say that the northern part of Donegal has never yet received any substantial or, indeed, any grant whatever from outside sources. The Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture saw for himself, I believe, last autumn many of the grievances to which the fishermen of Donegal are subject. They are subject not only to want of piers and boats and equipment, but they are also subject to the very distressing and destructive interference of the trawlers. Last summer I suppose that there were hundreds of trawlers from England and Scotland around the coast of Donegal, which not only captured all the fish available, but destroyed the nets of the fishermen and the spawn of the fish, and also destroyed even the opportunity of crab and lobster fishing. Therefore, I think it would be most desirable to have some action taken by the Department which would have the effect of preventing this injury that at present takes place, because otherwise the industry which has been for many years the staple industry of the people of northern Donegal will disappear entirely. During the last four years since the extensive trawling began the fishing takes have gone down very much. Even three years ago some merchants in the locality would spend thousands of pounds every summer in purchasing the takes of fish; but for the last three summers the takes of fish have gone down so much that the market has practically disappeared, simply because no fish were taken by the local fishermen. The trawlers took the fish from the coast and carried it away to England and Scotland, thereby depriving the locality of every advantage arising from the presence of the fish; and not only that, but the subsidiary industries that follow from fishing have also entirely disappeared. Net-making and net-mending, these, and attendant industries, have disappeared, and thereby depriving the peasantry, the aged, young, and the feeble, of that which afforded them a fairly substantial livelihood. Therefore, the destruction by the trawlers, which I am glad to know is receiving the attention that it should, the more needs to be prevented. I hope that before long this invasion will disappear. Referring to the remarks of the hon. Member for Grimsby, who said that we were depriving English fishermen of the opportunity to prosecute their energies, I would say that we do not complain of their energy; we do not wish to deprive them of that to which they are entitled. What we do complain of bitterly is that we have no means of our own of prosecuting that employment from which they reap so rich a harvest. We have no trawlers, piers, or harbours in which the trawlers can be accommodated. Now the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board knows that at Rath- mullen and Buncrana, which he visited, whole cargoes of fish have had to be thrown back into the sea because they could not be landed. I am glad he has given that matter some attention, and presumably means to do what he can to meet the requirements of the people. This is typical of our complaint; and it may be added that His Majesty's fleet have complained of the inadequacy of the accommodation, and it was understood that the Admiralty have been approached. I might name place after place in my Constituency where there is not a single pier worthy of the name. And the same observation applies all round the coast of Ireland. The late Chief Secretary (Mr. Bryce) went round the coast in the steamer of the Congested Districts Board—Lough Swilly, Rathmullen, Malin Head, Moville, Greencastle, and other places—and in all that distance he saw no pier, and he also saw that there was no accommodation for boats. Even at the eleventh hour I urge upon the Government that something should be done in the way of giving facilities for the fishing industry. Moville Head, Rathmullen, and all the surrounding coast have no provision made. They have a pier at Malin Head, but it is useless, and, as the hon. Member for Grimsby said, all the money spent on piers and harbours has been wasted. I agree with him that all the money spent on piers and harbours in Ireland has been wasted, because both piers and harbours are useless, and because they are built on dry land. [Laughter.] I mean that they are built too far on to the dry land, so that the boats cannot reach them, and they are useless for the purpose of the fishing industry. I hope that something will be done, and that the Department will give such attention to these matters and such assistance as will benefit those who are de pendent on the fishing industry.

Before proceeding with the statement of the Departmental case on this question, there are one or two observations of the hon. Member for Grimsby on which I should like to say a word. He said that something resembling persecution has arisen off the coast of Ireland in regard to trawlers, and he seemed to imply that the magistrates of Ireland were giving decisions which are not defensible, and that heavy costs were being imposed that were absurd. I am summarising.

Nobody in Ireland objects to the trawlers within their own area. Nobody can object. They are protected by law, and if they keep outside the three-mile limit they are perfectly free to carry on what is a legitimate business. But the whole of these trawlers have been brought into the Irish coasts not for fishing outside the three-mile limit, but for fishing inside the three-mile limit; in other words, for breaking the law. What does my hon. Friend mean by persecution? The cruisers belonging to the Department cannot be everywhere at the same time, and some of the fishermen of the northwest coast, feeling bitterly the effect of these trawlers, went out in their own boats, caught them within the three-mile limit, took their numbers, and the Department found at Liverpool or elsewhere who were the owners of those trawlers. If that is what my hon. Friend calls persecution, I say it is a legitimate defence of trade interests.

My hon. Friend finds fault with the penalty and with the court. I wish Irish magistrates would deal with those trawlers a little more stringently than they are inclined to do. I do not think the penalties have been sufficient, and I should not object to something more than a money penalty in cases of persistent breaches. [An HON. MEMBER: "Put them in gaol."] I must say I do not think there is any ground for the charge of persecution because poor men deprived illegally of their living venture to defend themselves and give information that enables the Department to take prosecutions.

There was another point he raised. He said if we were going to expend more money upon the piers and harbours in Ireland we had better interest local people in the erection of those piers. He implied, or indeed stated openly, that a great deal of money had been wasted or lost in bygone years. "We have had a request from the county councils to get powers to enable them to contribute to this very work. Last year I was enabled to carry a small Bill—not what I wanted altogether, but a Bill at all events that did bring in the county councils more than they had been brought in before. I can assure my hon. Friend that the county councils all around the seaport counties are extremely anxious to help in this work, and to do their share in the erection of those boat slips and piers. He may depend upon it whatever has happened in the past the local authori- ties are anxious to co-operate now. A Bill was passed, after a good deal of opposition, which enables them to do so.

The hon. and learned Member for North Dublin brought the case of Balbriggan Harbour before us. I heard a good deal of Balbriggan Harbour in bygone days. I know the position things are in at the present moment. I told my hon. and learned Friend to-day that on my return to Dublin next week I was quite willing to accompany him to Balbriggan to investigate the facts and to see what could be done to remedy the grievances under which the fishermen labour. He must bear in mind that that harbour is under the jurisdiction of the Port and Docks Board, Dublin. I do not know what we may be able to do, but, at all events, I promise him this: I shall not only go and find out what is wrong, I shall find out what can be done to put it right, and shall bring the whole influence of the Department to bear in favour of that being done. I cannot say more; I do not know sufficiently the powers we may have in the matter. I hope that will be satisfactory to the hon. and learned Gentlemen.

It is somewhat unfortunate that this fishery matter in Ireland is under the control of three sets of Departments. The Board of Works, as every Irish Member knows, has certain powers over the erection of harbours and of piers. They have sole power over Royal harbours—a fact which was noted by my hon. and learned friend the Member for North Dublin, who exempted Howth, which is a Royal harbour, from the discussion to-night.

Then there is the Congested Districts Board with power over certain portions of the sea coast—that is, the sea coast adjacent to the congested areas. Finally, there is the department which is constituted by statute the Fisheries Authority for Ireland. The Chief Secretary represents the Congested Districts Board in this House, but, as I am a member of that Board, and familiar with its work, my right hon. Friend asked me to deal with that branch of the case as well as with the case for my own Department, so as to avoid two Ministers taking part in the debate. Many of the speakers have borne testimony to the work of the Congested Districts Board in the development of fisheries. They have been at work for about 16 years. During that time they have revived fishing where it was languishing, established, and equipped a great fishing fleet, provided boats, established curing stations, inaugurated a system of sea transit, and erected boat slips and piers all along the coast under their control. On sea fisheries alone they have spent during the 16 years £393,523, and have received in return from fishermen and local authorities £203,823, showing a net expenditure of £189,700, or something like £12,000 a year. In dealing with this question I think that great work should be acknowledged. When the Congested Districts Board was established it was clear that two things would have to be done. It was not enough to reclaim land and migrate people, and it was a happy thought which included in the work of the Congested Districts Board fishery operations as well as agricultural. The work of my department is of a different character. We are engaged in policing the coasts, or in doing our best to police them. We have also to aid in the erection of piers, boat slips, and harbours. We are engaged not in building boats, as the hon. Member for Wexford thought—

We are engaged in lending money to build boats, we are enforcing the law in regard to inland fisheries all over the country, and we do a good deal of scientific work. Let me say a word or two about the policing of the coasts. That is a work of immense importance, because there can be no doubt whatever, in spite of what the hon. Member for Grimsby may think, the trawlers do destroy a large number of immature fish. That is a very serious matter. Apart altogether from the three miles limit or anything else, the work is not altogether of the character my hon. Friend seems to think. We have to police the coasts, and for that necessary and clamant work we have one vessel. We bought an old vessel called the "Helga" out of our own money. It was too slow, and was not in it with the trawlers. Twelve months ago we sold the "Helga," and built a new vessel. We not only had to build the vessel ourselves, but we have to maintain it. It costs annually a little over £6,000, but never under that. The work of that vessel has been admirable in the past. From the end of February to the middle of March we have recovered penalties off the coast of Donegal of £480, and off the coast of Galway we have recovered penalties of about £200. I must say that it has done its work splendidly. We hear from Kerry that the trawlers are there. Under the Fisheries Act as embodied in the Act of 1889, when we took over the fisheries, we got £10,000 for aiding and developing sea fisheries in Ireland. If you take £6,000 out of £10,000, how many ports will you build with the balance? Agricultural education is going forward by leaps and bounds; technical education is spreading everywhere, but the moment we come to this Department of Fisheries we are at a standstill, not because the people are not able and willing to engage in fisheries, but because facilities do not exist. I receive deputations constantly, and, going round the coasts, I see broken down piers everywhere. What more can I do? In addition to this £10,000, we have other sources of income. I wish to put the case fairly. There is the old Sea Fisheries Fund, and out of that, or rather out of the income arising out of it, we lend money for boat building purposes. I wish to state here that the amount of money which has been lost is very trifling, and that the instalments of the loans made for building boats are paid by the hardy fishermen with the greatest regularity. There is another fund—a very much larger fund—which I can draw upon in certain circumstances. The Agricultural Board can give grants, and have given grants, for piers and harbours, where there is information that a trade other than fisheries can be developed, or is likely to be developed. I have been able to do a good deal of work in the past by the assistance of the Agricultural Board.

It is not unwillingness on the part of the Department to do this work, but we are unable to do so because we are limited in our resources. A good deal has been said about the three-mile limit, and a good deal of misunderstanding prevails about it. The law stands in this way. For British trawlers there is no statutory law. It is made by bye-laws. I have been asked over and over again "Why do not you keep the trawlers further out?" The three-mile limit is a matter of international law, and therefore the foreign trawlers can come within the three mile limit, while our own trawlers are left outside. That is not a preference which I am prepared to defend. I am glad to say that the bye-laws extend all over the coast of Ireland. These bye-laws prohibit trawlers in that area, and they practically extend now, or will extend, round the entire coast of Ireland.

No, inside. They will not be allowed to come within the three-mile limit. Another complaint is that the Department does not deal with trawlers which come in with lights down; but that is a matter to be dealt with by the Board of Trade. I now come to the question of piers and boat slips. I want to inform hon. Members opposite—some of them will be interested, as it affects their Constituencies —we have some power owing to the grant for the Agricultural Department, and I hope next week to get the Board of Agriculture to consent to give a grant—a least for Buncrana, where there is a very large fishing industry carried on. The hon. Member for North Donegal was quite right in saying that that industry was carried on with the greatest advantage to the district. A sum of £3,000 will be granted, and the county council of Donegal have promised to come and stand in. Then there is Enniscrone, in the county of Sligo, and Fetherd, in the county Wexford. That is a case of great difficulty, but Fetherd is not being forgotten, and will be dealt with as speedily as possible. The hon. Member for North Antrim raised the case of Rathlin Island. That is the place of all others I should like to deal with. I visited it in the month of October, and I learned what the poor Rathlin islanders have to endure. I never was out on such a sea in my life. My hon. Friend opposite was there from the county council of Antrim, and I think it was very fortunate either of us ever got back. It convinced me of the hardships those people have to suffer. They have to bring their pigs and cattle to market in open boats six miles through this stormy sea, and when they arrive, after risking their lives, there is no landing place. They live lives of the greatest possible hardship. I was told a very small expenditure would remedy the whole thing. "Well, as I say, I went to Rathlin, and I found that the county council of Antrim are willing and anxious to assist financially, and I said if the thing could be done for £5,000 it ought to be done. A survey was made, and we found that unfortunately it could not be done for £5,000; it would cost a great deal more, and even then a new difficulty was raised, namely, that it would be very little use making a suitable place for taking off the people and the cattle from the island if a suitable place were not provided at Newcastle for landing. I want to assure my hon. Friends from Antrim that the matter will not be lost sight of, and I shall do my best to get the county council to come to terms with the Department to do what is possible. They tell me it would be possible to develop the limestone business there. I have not much belief in the tourist traffic there, but if steamers could be got to call there during the summer it might be well. Anything that, can be done within reasonable limits will be done.

Now there are two things which have struck me in going round the country. The first thing is the appalling waste of money that has taken place in the past. I do not know who is to blame. I do not blame anybody, but I must say that piers are in places where they ought never to have been put. They have been put in places where the tide cannot reach them, and they have been built in places where they have never been used; and the old piers are doing duty after the new ones have been erected. I know of nothing worse than that. The waste of money that has taken place in the past is perfectly scandalous. To go no further, the hon. Member for Dublin mentioned the pier at Greystone. There is a pier and harbour costing £20,000—and there it stands. Nobody seems to have any interest in it. We are constantly writing about it, but nothing comes of it. All round the coast I have found the same state of things existing.

The next thing that impressed me was this: Will the House allow me to put it as a group of fishermen put it to me on a stormy day off the coast of Clare, about four months ago. One stalwart man, in answer to my argument, bluntly said: "See here, Mr. Russell; America is shut down to us. They do not want us there. The trawlers are taking all the fish—the grazers have all the land. Where do we come in?" I think that is a perfectly unanswerable argument. It is the real truth of the matter in these places, and I speak as I do to-night because I really feel for these poor people. There is another famous place on the coast of Clare where the hardy fishermen there rescued the crew of a French vessel not many months ago with the greatest difficulty and suffered the greatest hardship. But for those fine fellows I could do nothing. I hardly know what my office exists for when I go and see things as they are. I can sympathise with them, but I can do nothing for them. That is the position in these parts, and I appeal to the House to-night that something ought to be done. That is a matter for the Treasury of course. I have said in my time just as many hard things about the Treasury as any other Irish Member, but I must say that I am not in a humour to say hard things about the Treasury to-night. I think Ireland has done fairly well this year. We have had old age pensions, a national university, Land Bills, and so on. We have been fairly well treated. I know my hon. Friends do not think so, but they must put themselves in my place. At any rate I have not felt it possible to ask the Treasury to undertake work of this kind, but I do say that in the near future the whole question of the Irish boards, Irish harbours and the protection of the Irish coasts, which have to be faced, and I hope that this discussion to-night will help the matter forward, and that the Irish Members will take this matter up, and bring it to a practical issue.

Old Age Pensions

There is a question I am desirous of raising, and as this is the first opportunity I have of doing so I shall take it. It has been brought to my notice, and I believe also to the notice of other hon. Members of the House, that at the present moment the remuneration which has been allowed by the Treasury to the officers who have been responsible for carrying out the Old Age Pensions Act has not been in many cases, in the opinion of the recipients, and I also think, and shall attempt to show, in the opinion of fair-minded men, at all adequate to the very heavy amount of work which these painstaking officers have given to the proper administration of this Act. There has been an enormous consensus of opinion that the Inland Revenue officers, on whose shoulders by far the greatest burden of the heavy work of carrying out this Act has fallen, have carried out their work in an extremely able and satisfactory manner, both to the recipients of the old age pensions and also to the taxpayers and the Treasury. I believe that in certain portions of the country in Ireland there have been certain aspersions cast there as to the amount of of people who have received old age pensions, but certainly, as far as England, Scotland, and Wales are concerned, I think there is absolutely a consensus of opinion that the work has been most admirably done. I am inclined to think, in view of the excellent work these officers have done, that undoubtedly a careful Treasury should at least recompense them in some proportion to their efforts, and show that they recognise the much excellent work and the painstaking way in which they have carried out their duties.

I had imagined when we had a Supplementary Estimate for Old Age Pensions that that would have been the proper moment to have raised this question, but I fear that at that time the officers themselves were unaware of what the amount of their remuneration would be. I placed a question on the Paper last Monday to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I regret to say that in his answer he told me that the matter had been reconsidered, and that he did not think it was possible for him to reopen the question and again reconsider the scheme of the remuneration of these officers. I extremely regret that, because I think I can show to the House that certainly in the great majority of cases these men have not received adequate remuneration. The work, I believe, by the general consensus of opinion in this House, has been carried out in a satisfactory manner, and I believe that on many of these officers it has entailed extraordinarily hard work for at least four months of last year. I believe some of the officers have worked from 12 to 16 hours a day, and that they have done their very best to make the Act a success and see that their work was properly done. The work of these Inland Revenue officers cannot altogether have been a pleasant task. It is not as if they sat in some comfortable office and merely had to look up their records and work at their ease, but they have had to go to country villages at a considerable distance to find out the position of the applicants, their means, and their surroundings, and also undoubtedly in many of our crowded cities they have sometimes had to visit some of the not most pleasant portions of the city and make inquiries which were not very pleasant. If they had gone merely with open hands to distribute public money no doubt they would always have been received with open arms, but I believe the great majority of these officers attempted to carry out their work in the interests of the Treasury and the taxpayer, and had to make sometimes rather painful inquiries, and perhaps were not received with so much pleasure as would be the case if they had merely to distribute money without asking questions.

I believe the total sum to be paid as special remuneration amounts to £40,000, or about £17 a piece. I believe Government clerks working overtime and sitting in comfortable offices would receive very nearly treble the amount which these men receive. As regards general pay of Government employés they have certainly been paid on a lower scale, and they appear to have a still further grievance, because they appear to be paid on a lower scale than others engaged in administering the Act. I believe a sub-postmaster merely for filling up a form for an applicant gets Is. It perhaps takes some five or ten minutes, even with rather a stupid applicant, and that appears to be a pretty high scale of pay, far higher than the Inland Revenue officer gets. At the same time I believe the Pension Committees have also received a far higher scale of pay than the revenue officers, and though no doubt they perform important duties they are to a great extent routine duties. They merely have to fill up registers, to keep account of the proceedings and write letters telling applicants whether their claims have been allowed. The work of these clerks and of the sub-postmasters is in no way comparable to the work of these Inland Revenue officers, who have worked 12 to 16 hours per day in all weathers, making disagreeable inquiries, and if there is a higher scale of pay to be given these men ought to receive it. I have heard of cases where so well have these Inland Revenue officers carried out their work that 99 per cent, of their recommendations have been passed, and I believe it is also a pretty good estimate to say that 90 per cent, of the work practically falls upon the Inland Revenue officers. A case which has been brought to my notice works out in this way, that the officer will receive £13 remuneration and the clerk to the pension committee will receive £35. It will practically work out, taking the extra hours worked in order to try and make the Act a success, at an extra remuneration of 4½d. per hour. We have just had a Sweating Bill introduced into this House. I certainly think that for a trained, educated man like one of these Inland Revenue officers only to receive 4½d. an hour represents a sweating wage, which the Treasury would do well to increase. When this Bill was being passed we heard a great deal about these Inland Revenue officers. At that time the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of them as "these Imperial officers." But now, when they have to do the work it ap- pears to me that they have become very minor officials in the great Treasury Department, and they are no longer likened to great pro-Consuls in Imperial affairs. I believe it is a fact that certain duties have been taken off their shoulders, such as the collection of dog and carriage duties; but it is a heavier and more disagreeable task to make inquiries of the people who claim old age pensions than to make inquiries concerning all the people you thought kept a dog or a trap in your district. The work thrown on them is far heavier than any that has been taken from them. These men have earned the thanks not only of the Chancellor of the Exchequer but also of the other Members of this House and of the country at large for the excellent way in which they have carried out their duties. They have a good claim also on the ground that their overtime should be paid for at the rate that would be paid to a Government clerk employed in a comfortable office here in London. They also have a claim on the ground that the remuneration they have received is not on that scale given to others who have to administer this Act—sub-postmasters, who fill up claims and the clerks to the different pension authorities. This is a genuine and reasonable demand by valuable public servants for consideration for better remuneration. During the years I have been in this House I have very seldom raised my voice in favour of the claim of public servants. I think that sometimes in this House we have a little too much pressure placed on individual Members in order to get better terms out of the Government. As far as possible in my Parliamentary career I have kept myself clear of trying to force the hands of the Government in this respect, and I should not have risen to urge the claims of the Inland Revenue officers on the Government now if I did not consider that they had a very reasonable claim for remuneration.

I congratulate those concerned in securing the advocacy of the Noble Lord. It is very difficult to resist him unless he has really a very bad case. I cannot say that this case is quite so good as some he has taken up. I agree with every word that has fallen from him in reference to the work done by these officers. I am very glad there has been perfect equanimity as to the way they have discharged their difficult and delicate functions. It must be very gratifying to them, and also—if I may say so—to those who chose them for this particular work, to find that every party and every section in the House are of the opinion that they have discharged their work so very excellently. The Noble Lord dwelt upon the remuneration. He did not make it sufficiently clear to the House that he was not quarrelling with the remuneration so much as with the gratuity that we were giving them. He says that an officer only received £13 for a disagreeable duty; but it must not be forgotten that during the whole of that time he was in full receipt of his wages. The Noble Lord apparently did not take the trouble to find out what those wages were. I should have thought it was most essential, when you were considering whether a gratuity for overtime was fair or unfair, to find out what reference it had to the wages the man earned. If the Noble Lord had taken the trouble to inquire what this gentleman has been paid during the whole of this time for the discharge of his ordinary functions, he will find that the gratuity is something between 30 and 50 per cent, of the wages. That is not a bad gratuity for the work which has been done. I agree that it has been very hard work. I do not agree that it has been disagreeable work. Not only was it not disagreeable to the officers themselves—

I did not mention that it was always disagreeable, but there must be some disagreeable duties connected with claims of this sort, and when adverse to the claimants.

There is something disagreeable in connection with every work. But the work was a pleasant one on the whole. [Lord WILLOUGHBY DE EKESBY dissented.] The Noble Lord has not done it. If he will take the trouble to converse with the officers, they will tell him, as they told me, that they were delighted with the work; that no work they ever did gave them so much pleasure and delight. They expressed their unmitigated satisfaction that the irksome duties which were imposed upon them of collecting the taxes and dealing with gun and game licenses gave way to this humane work. I ask the Noble Lord whether he would rather ask a man for 5s. or have the job to pay him 5s.? It would be a very disagreeable task to go and collect the 5s. Therefore, I say that the work is neither disagreeable nor unpleasant nor irksome, but that it is a job they are delighted with; it gives them the greatest satisfaction; they have said so. But I do not say that they ought to be paid merely by their liking for the work they do, which is the only satisfaction which most Members of this House get for the good work they do. I do not propose or suggest that Excise officers should exist merely upon that; nor is that the view taken by the Inland Revenue. We have voted £40,000 for distribution amongst them as gratuities. I do not mean to say that there are not cases where the gratuity may not have been inadequate. If the Noble Lord will give me cases where he can demonstrate to me that, having regard to the exceptional amount of work imposed on any particular officer, if he will show me that he has been meanly or shabbily treated, then I think it will be the duty of the Inland Revenue to investigate that case and pay him accordingly. But the Noble Lord must give me specific cases. He may talk about the inadequacy of the miserable sum of £17 or £13, but that will not do it. It might be quite adequate. The Noble Lord is quite wrong about the postmasters in thinking that they are paid Is. for merely shaking hands with each old age pensioner. As a matter of fact, the postmasters have perhaps more reason than the Excise officers to complain. They have got to fill up every form; they have to pay the money all round; they have to enter it, and they have to make returns. The Noble Lord seems to think that is a mere nothing, but when you have hundreds of old age pensioners coming every week, when you have to make a return to the central office, and when you get Is. per pensioner per year for doing all that, I think you will agree that it is not the most princely pay.

They seem to be inadequate terms. All I can promise the Noble Lord at present is to inquire into any specific case.

The Noble Lord seems to think not merely that we are paying the excise officer inadequately, but that we are paying too much to somebody else. If that is his view he ought to move a reduction. If he can point out to me that the clerks are really overpaid, is he prepared to champion that view? I should like to know on what grounds he states so. As a matter of fact, I think they are adequately paid, although that probably is not their opinion. We have had no complaint from the clerks. Although I do not complain of grievances being ventilated in the House of Commons, which, after all, is the place where every grievance has perfect right of access, still, before you come to the House of Commons to complain, I would suggest that there is the duty first to complain to the Inland Revenue officer, I have heard of no complaint. I cannot help thinking that if they feel badly treated they should first make representations to the Inland Revenue Department. I am waiting for them to begin. If any specific case is given I shall be the last man in the world not to consider it, because I feel that these officers have done their work in a way which has won commendation from every section, and which has raised the whole status of the service. At the same time it is a purely exceptional and abnormal condition of things which cannot possibly be repeated, and therefore the amount of the gratuity is one that never can be renewed. Subject to what I have said, I shall be very glad to inquire into any specific cases.

Question put, and agreed to:—Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole House for to-morrow (26th March).

Army (Annual) Bill

Order for second reading read.

Motion made and question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a second time."

I thought it was the intention of the Secretary of State to make a statement on the Bill, which is more extended than it was a year ago. When the present Government was formed an appeal was made to the new Secretary of State to look into this matter for himself of placing before the House frequently these extraordinary departures, monstrous departures, and dangers under this Act. We appealed to him and asked him to look into it, and no one could be more competent to do so. I understood he was to do so. No improvement of any kind, no substantial improvement, has taken place on the present occasion. It is proposed to make matters infinitely worse than they were before. It begins by a most extraordinary proposal raising new constitutional issues of the gravest possible character.

I should like to get two matters out of the way—there are other Members of the House who can deal with other points—which are comparatively unimportant but most obscure. They are properly points that need some explanation in advance of the Committee in order that Members should be prepared. Clause 6 and Clause 8 are two points on which I have to ask for information. Clause 6 is very difficult; all military law is most obscure. Clause 6 is explained as having for its object to give power to authorise the Governor of a Colony to confirm the findings and sentences of general courts-martial, if he has had conferred on him the command of any of His Majesty's forces:— temporary provision was made when Indian troops were brought to this country for the Coronation. Probably the matter was looked into at that time, and I should like an explanation of the constitutional points which Clause 8 undoubtedly raises. Leaving aside the clauses which are new, and to which attention will be called on the other side of the House, I should like to draw attention to the curious provisions which begin the new part of the Bill. The first paragraph of the explanation alludes to Clause 4, which is really the first new part of the Bill. Clause 4 itself concerns a matter which appears to be wholly outside the ordinary provisions of the Army Annual Act. It is not an ordinary amendment of the law. It is—at all events from the point of view taken by the Liberal party in the House of Lords some years ago, and by us at all times—a constitutional departure. The extraordinary thing about it is not that it should be proposed at all, though that is difficult to explain, but that year after year this proposal should be made—first under Mr. Arnold Forster, whose death many of us deeply deplore, who withdrew his proposal on account of the powerful objection made to it by the Liberal party in the House of Lords, and when he threatened to introduce it again here was prevented from so doing by private representations, and then on two occasions by the present Government. That Bill has been constantly proposed, and as constantly opposed, and it has been dropped in consequence of our fierce objections to it. It is now shovelled wholesale into this Bill with which apparently it has little connection. Being afraid that I may be supposed to be the author of this portion of the Bill I had better tell the House exactly what passed upon that point. The necessity for an Army Council Act was based by Mr. Arnold Forster upon one difficulty alone. He said that it was necessary to obtain the signature of the King on every occasion when a non-commissioned officer was reduced to the ranks. By the abolition of the Commander-in-Chief a gap had been left which could be got over only in that way. We pointed out that that did not appear to give much justification for the Bill, and Mr. Arnold Forster, after trying certain amendments which pacified some of the Liberal Peers but did not alter its constitutional character, withdrew it, and managed to get on very well without any change in the law during the remaining years of I the late Government. In the second year of the present Government the War Office brought the matter forward again. It must be remembered that we were suspicious in regard to the changes which might be made under cover of the Army Council Bill, because we had had some reason to doubt the manner in which the War Office was inclined to deal with the control of the House of Commons over Army finance. In the absence of Members of the Public Accounts Committee who took a leading part in the controversy, I will not raise that matter now. No doubt it will be best debated in Committee. Mr. Bowles, who lost his seat at the last election, is worthily represented in this House by his son, who takes a similar part on the Public Accounts Committee to that formerly taken by his father. I have no doubt that one or other of three or four Gentlemen who have taken the matter up will deal with it on the Committee stage. As regards its appearance in this Bill this is what happened: In the discussions on the Territorial Army Bill the matter was brought up, and the announcement was then made by the Secretary of State that he was going to meet all the difficulties which had been raised by bringing in a Bill which he seemed to think would solve all the questions which had then arisen. During the Territorial Army debate it again came up last year. On 31st March we described the history of the difficulty, and publicly we simply passed the Bill, but privately on that occasion, when an attempt was made to compromise the difficulty, I asked: If the only difficulty was that which had been alleged and which arises only in the case of the reduction of an officer to the ranks —why not deal with it by a clause in the Army Annual Bill? But never for a moment did it occur to me that all those extraordinary powers which are imposed year after year would be shovelled wholesale into a single clause, and all I can say is that I almost doubt whether it is in order that the occasion of the Army Annual Bill, which was originally introduced only for the purpose of making the small amendments required from time to time in the military code, should be taken to enact the possibly enormously important constitutional provisions contained in that Bill, and now in this clause, which represents that Bill. The War Office have always alleged that this Army Council Bill is of no importance, but if that is an argument which can be used it is one which tells on our side. If it is of no importance, why raise these constitutional issues, if the difficulty I have mentioned is the only one to be met? No other has ever been suggested. It has been alleged that the desire is to bring the War Office into the same position as the Admiralty, and to recognise the Board as we recognise the Commissioners. If hon. Members will look at the long preamble of the Bill they will find that, although the Admiralty portion has been altered, there is no pretence that the military part corresponds. No man who has waded through the pages of small type can doubt the immense difficulty of knowing on any one point what is the constitutional position with reference to the Army. That is the case which I bring before the House, and I hope we shall have a better explanation than those given on previous occasions.

Truly the position of War Minister is not altogether an easy one. I have been reproached for a succession of years for leaving the Army Act in a very obscure condition. I was told that it was full of clauses which applied only to a state of things which had gone by when the Commander-in-Chief and the Adjutant-General wielded great powers. The Army Act remained in that position year after year, and I promised last year to put matters right in another Bill. When I brought it in it was objected to, and I therefore said I will do my best to put matters right when the Army (Annual) Bill came in during the next year. The clauses which my right hon. Friend has wrapped up in so great a mystery are clauses every word and syllable of which have no other object than to give effect in the way of making the Army Act decently drafted. The changes which have been introduced have, in substance, been the law of the land for years past. In 1904 the old office of Commander-in-Chief was abolished, and all the powers were transferred to the Army Council. The Bill reserves in expressed terms the responsibility of the Secretary of State to the House. There is no question of my being in a less responsible position to the House than I am at present. So much for my right hon. Friend's main point. This Bill is a pure drafting Bill. The Commander-in-Chief is gone; his powers have lapsed, and they have to be exercised by prerogative. I am responsible for the action of those who exercise these functions, and I am sure if my right hon. Friend will study the Bill he will find the difficulties he fears are not likely to arise. I now come to the next part. My right hon. Friend asks about the clause that enables Colonial Governors to convene and confirm the findings and sentences of general courts-martial. The Colonial Governor, if he has the command of regulars in his Colony, has these powers. The Governor-General of Australia would have these powers if there were regular troops there. The difficulty has arisen because in Australia and Canada we no longer keep regulars. While the locally-raised troops are in Canada and Australia the Governor-General has control of them, but when they get on the sea, nobody has proper control over them. In the intermediate stage between one country and another there is that gap, and it is suggested to us we should meet that gap.

I am very glad of that explanation of the clause. I fully expected that, and agree with it. My question on that clause was saying that I did not think it could possibly bear on what happened recently in Natal —whether it could bear on martial law.

No, I think not. I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for having put the point and I am glad to be able to make it clear. With regard to Colonial Officers doing duty in this way they would come under the Army Act. While we shall be glad to encourage, in every way, officers and troops from the Colonies, coming over here, we must bring them under the Army Act—

The point was raised in connection with Indian troops going to Cyprus.

I quite see the point They come in only temporarily. The only other point on which I should like to say anything is the clause about billetting. That clause refers only to a state of war. It is only for use in a case of great national emergency that we ask for these powers. When the Territorial force is embodied the accommodation in victualling houses in the localities where it will be necessary to concentrate the forces will be entirely inadequate. This clause proposes that when the Territorial force is embodied men belonging either to that force or to the regulars should be allowed to be billetted elsewhere than in victualling houses. The clause would apply only in time of great national emergency, and we should have power to take buildings such as schools and all sorts of places for the purpose in a time of great national danger, when the safety of the country should be threatened. We wish to have power to do it, and we get it in a form which will enable civil authorities to be the persons to make the arrangements. I trust this power will never have to be exercised, but as the Territorial force ought to be made as great a reality as we can make it, we think it right to make this preparation, only for a time of great national emergency—not for peace and under conditions which I trust no Member of this House will ever see it used.

I am not so satisfied with some of the explanations as the right hon. Gentleman appears to be himself. I do not wish to discuss in any way the question of clause 4. I understand, however, that very considerable powers are going to be transferred from the Secretary of State, who is directly responsible to Parliament, to some secondary body.

With certain reservations—with power to reserve certain of his duties especially to himself. I am not sure—I do not know sufficient of Constitutional law to be sure—whether that lessens the power to control acts that may be done by the Army Council. Whether that is so or not, I am not in a position to judge, but I must say with reference to Clause 6 and the question of the Memorandum, I take it that the real meaning is, and it says that the object of this clause is, to make it clear that the Governor of the Colony can, by warrant to be authorised, convene and confirm the sentence of a court-martial, as if he had conferred upon him the command of any of His Majesty's forces, and it goes on to say that at present it is necessary that he should have had conferred upon him the command of a body of regular forces, before such a warrant could be issued. I suppose that the Governor-General of any Colony has always the ordinary law if there are no regular forces which he can command, and I would like to know whether the ordinary law is not sufficient. At any time, even though there may be no regular forces in the Colony, the Governor-General will, if this clause becomes law, have the power to declare by proclamation that martial law now exists in that country, although there is not a regular soldier in the country. You are going to confer that power upon him in cases where there are no regular soldiers.

The Governor-General of a Colony who has power over the troops in such cases as a hiatus occurring. Say in the case of troops passing from a Colony to our country; in that event it applies; and it is to meet such a case that this clause is put in.

I want some provision then to limit it to that, because it is clearly not limited to that now. The words here are most distinct. The object of the clause is to make it clear that the Governor of a Colony can by warrant convene courts-martial and confirm their votes. If he has issued a proclamation that martial law exists in the Colony he can proceed even though there are no regular troops there. He can convene courts-martial to sanction sentences even if the life of a man be involved. I shall certainly require, before I can give sanction to this clause, some limit, because what I do say is this: I remember well that during the passing of the Territorial Bill through this House, the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers were always anxious to extend the military code as far as they could to the civil population. I think the experience of every democratic country in the world is that military law should be limited as much as possible, and that the tendency is to limit it more and more, and where there are regular institutions as in this country, there is no mortal reason for military law at all; never was, never can be. It is only because the chiefs of the Army usually want to do just as they choose to people who come into contact with their discipline without any regard to law at all. I must have the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. My suggestion is this: that in the Colonies there are mostly regular forms of justice. There are the courts. You can scarcely imagine in this country such a condition of affairs prevailing that the ordinary courts and their jurisdiction would not apply; and the whole tendency of the right hon. Gentleman's legislation has been to submit and to coerce the civil population both of the Colonies and of this country as nearly as possible, in case of some imaginary emergency, not to the ordinary law, but to the law of the soldier, which is, as everybody knows, no law at all, except that of his own will. These men in the Colonies are mostly subject races as a rule, with a very small white population; and if it is going to be just the word of the Governor, which is going to submit the whole population of any one of our Colonies to this kind of proceeding, well then I do not think that this House of Commons—perhaps another House of Commons elected with different ideas, placing different ideas before the people before it is elected, may do so, but this House of Commons will certainly not do so, while they do much to abrogate the ordinary laws of the country and place the lives of citizens either in our Colonies or at home in the hands of soldiers.

I am also particularly interested in the clause relating to billeting. For the first time the ordinary dwellings of the people are to be invaded by the military. An order is to be issued by the commanding officer that on embodiment—there need not necessarily be invasion, the war may be in China or Japan—the dwelling of the worker is to be invaded by the military. I do not think the country will stand anything of the kind unless there is some imminent danger. The Territorial Act, to which this Bill refers, states that on the declaration of war, irrespective of where the war may be, it is possible by proclamation, even without calling Parliament together, to embody the Territorials.

I will warrant I could get a lawyer to interpret that to mean anything. These words say "embodiment"—

If you read the Reserve Forces Act of '82 you will find the words I have quoted. Parliament must be convened at once to judge whether the Executive has acted properly or not. [Hear, hear.]

Yes, of course, the soldiers say "Hear, hear." They say "Hear, hear" to any invasion of civil rights. Reading the clauses of this Bill, it states that on the embodiment of the Territorials these powers of billeting in private dwellings are to apply. I should think during the South African war, when we had so few soldiers left in this country and the whole of Europe was hostile to us, most likely if we had had a Territorial army we should have embodied it. If you insist upon compelling the ordinary citizen to billet a regular soldier for 6d. a night probably you will want him to billet the Territorial for nothing. The first schedule to the Act states that the lodging and attendance for soldiers where meals are provided are to be furnished at 6d. per night. These words are here; of course they may not have any business to be here. They do not apply to the Territorials as yet, but it may be taken for granted that if private citizens are compelled to billet soldiers for this sum, the amount paid for Territorials, instead of being more, will be considerably less. Then where is it likely that people will have soldiers billeted on them and be compelled to provide them with meals and a night's lodging for 6d.? Is it in the houses of the aristocrats or in Park Lane, or is it not more likely to be down in Jews' Row, Wandsworth, or somewhere there? This proposal of the right hon. Gentleman is an invasion of citizens' rights which I must certainly protest against.

I wish to refer now to clause 6, with reference to the convening of and the findings and sentences of general court-martials. I notice that very considerable powers are to be exercised also with reference to the other forces. The powers for military court-martials, drumhead court-martials, which we with success protested against being included in the Act establishing the Territorial army, are being sought now to be obtained by the right hon. Gentleman by a side wind here. I am of opinion that that is what it would amount to. If there happen to be regular soldiers with the Territorials, one or two put to drill them or instruct them, as the case may be, then the ordinary military tribunals are to impose their will upon the whole of those forces. This is an extension of a principle which I believe to be entirely wrong. I was in hopes of a time when, so far as the soldier was concerned, he should be treated, except in actual warfare, as a civilian—that he should be entitled to the protection of the laws of the country the same as any other individual. The right hon. Gentleman says that he is: he is not. Courts-martial give decisions that no civil court would contemplate for a moment. Instead of increasing the power of the officer over his men, unless on the actual field of battle, it is the business of this House to limit it more and more. We should put the soldier more and more into a position, so far as administering discipline is concerned, of the ordinary citizen. Why is it not so? Why could not, for instance, every, or most of these cases, except small disciplinary affairs, be brought before a magistrate; at Portsmouth, even for the regular forces. They could be dealt with just as effectively. Why, when the soldier has broken military law, is it not liked that he should come before the ordinary tribunal? Because he would get something like justice, mercy, and consideration, and it is very well known that he gets neither, in many cases, if he happens to be tried by his superior officer. I say the right hon. Gentleman's policy is opposed to modern views upon this subject. I believe in France at the present time the powers of courts-martial, and officers to inflict severe punishment, apart from the ordinary civil procedure of the country, has been considerably limited, and it is only in certain well-defined cases now that a soldier is not to be brought before a civil tribunal and sentenced like an ordinary citizen. Here his case is properly tried, and he is allowed to speak for himself, without being bullied and denied the dignity of a man.

It is our business to discuss a proposition like this, when the right hon. Gentleman, instead of going in the direction of some progressive interpretation of this clause, is going back further than ever, and bringing more people within the military code, instead of trying to exclude as many people as possible. We protested against it during the passing of the Territorial Act, and so far as I am concerned I am going to do the best I can in the Committee stage of this Bill—even if I sit up a night or two—to prevent it being extended in respect to this Army (Annual) Bill. I have heard about some famous discussions upon this Bill before, but if the right hon. Gentleman thinks he is going to hand over the whole of the Territorial army, which, after all, is a citizen army to a great extent, to fossilized military martinets—if he thinks he is going to extend their power, I assure him he makes a very big mistake. While I have supported his policy from the beginning in regard to the Territorial army in making it a citizen force, effective for the purpose for which it is intended, I am not, if I can possibly help it, going to allow him to extend the power of the officer to crush the individuality out of the men temporarily under his control.

Bill read a second time; and committed to a Committee of the whole House for Monday next.—[ Mr. Haldane. ]

Board of Trade (Salary)

Resolution reported: "That it is expedient to authorise an increase in the Salary of the President of the Board of Trade, to be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament."

Motion made and Question proposed: "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

I desire to say one word upon this Report. Last night the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury announced that the Bill based upon this money Resolution, namely: That the salary of the existing holder of the office of President of the Board of Trade, and also of the existing holder of the office of President of the Local Government Board, will not be dealt with by this Bill, but that the status of the offices is only to be improved when both those right hon. Gentlemen have either retired or have been transferred to other offices. I do feel, with probably many of my friends in this quarter of the House, objection to that provision. We consider that it is purely pedantic to say that, when, by sanction of the whole House, the status of the office of the President of the Board of Trade is to be improved, the individual Minister now holding it, and to whom this compliment is thus vicariously paid, is not to receive the enhanced salary. I desire, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to put this point of order. I wish to ask, if, having passed this Resolution, it will be out of order for myself or any of my friends, when the Bill comes before the House, to move in Committee that the provision excluding the present holder of the office, shall be amended so that he shall have the benefit of the enhanced emolument.

It would be quite in order for the Noble Lord to move an amendment such as he suggests. If he looks at the terms of the Resolution he will find that they are quite general and sufficiently wide to cover the salary of the existing holder of the office.

Resolution agreed to; Bill ordered to be brought in by the Prime Minister, Mr. Joseph Pease, and Mr. Hobhouse.

Bill "to remove the Statutory Limitation on the Salary of the President of the Board of Trade," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next.

Army Billeting (Compensation)

moved, "That this House will to-morrow resolve itself into Committee to consider the authorising of payment of money Voted by Parliament for Army services, of compensation for damages caused by billeting under any Act of the present Session to provide during 12 months for the discipline and regulation of the Army. (King's Recommendation signified), to-morrow (26th March).

Question put and agreed: And, it being after half-past eleven of the clock, Mr. Deputy Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, in pursuance of the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twelve minutes before Twelve of the clock.