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Commons Chamber

Volume 6: debated on Monday 14 June 1909

House of Commons

Monday, June 14, 1909

Private Business

Clevedon Water Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed.

Donington Water Bill [ Lords ].

Considered; to be read the third time.

Barry Railway Bill [ Lords ],

Bristol University Bill [ Lords ],

East Sussex County Council Bill [ Lords ],

Southport and Lytham Tramroad

(Abandonment) Bill [ Lords ],

Stourbridge and District Water Board Bill [ Lords ],

Read a second time, and committed.

Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899

Musselburgh Corporation (Extension of Boundaries, etc.) Order Confirmation Bill,

Read a second time, and committed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Visits of Foreign Officers to Garrison Towns

asked the Secretary of State for War whether foreign officers visiting garrison towns in the United Kingdom have to report themselves to the military authorities?

asked the Secretary of State for War whether foreign officers desiring to make a stay of any time in garrison towns in the United Kingdom have first to obtain permission of the British authorities?

Foreign Officer at British Ports

asked the Secretary of State for War whether foreigners holding military status who cross from Continental ports to British ports have to report to the military or other British authority notice of arrival or departure from any place where they stay the night?

Army Council and Private Correspondence

asked the Secretary of State for War what precautions are taken by the Army Council to prevent the printing by its authority of private letters containing personalities, trivialities, and matters praising the Army Council?

All printing in the War Office comes under the personal supervision of the Permanent Under-Secretary, and no other precaution is considered necessary.

Will the right hon. Gentleman send a copy of that answer to the Admiralty?

I think the public channels of communication are sufficient to span over the gap between Whitehall and the Admiralty buildings.

Territorial Battalions (Presentation of Colours)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the deputations from the Territorial battalions which are to attend to receive the colours from His Majesty may be understood to include the commanding officer of those battalions?

The detachments to accompany the colour parties will consist of not more than twenty of all ranks of each unit, and the proportion of the several ranks is left to the commanding officer, who may naturally include himself in the number.

Salisbury Plain (Accommodation of Troops)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he had yet received information as to the supply of tent boards and great-coats to the Territorial troops stationed at West Down Camp, Salisbury; and whether he was aware that there were only 600 tent boards at the camp for 12,000 men, and that even the hospitals were without such necessaries?

There are over 2,300 tent bottoms on Salisbury Plain, which are ample for the Territorial troops encamped there. Tent bottoms are only supplied when the medical authorities certify it to be necessary; they are not usually provided for camps of short duration. Waterproof ground sheets are issued when tent bottoms are not supplied. There seems to be no reason for treating Territorial troops differently from other troops in this respect. It must be remembered that the tent bottom is a very large and heavy article, very difficult to transport, and expensive to provide. They have never been considered an ordinary article of equipment.

Did not the Medical Administrative Officers apply for the issue of these tent bottoms during wet weather?

I am not aware of that, but if they had done so the tent bottoms would have been issued.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Duke of Lancaster's Own Regiment—of which my hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. John Rutherford) is Colonel—offered to bring their own tent bottoms with them?

I think that shows a very great misunderstanding of the new conditions. These tent bottoms are issued only when the medical authorities consider them necessary.

I am informed there was an ample supply for all the erections which needed them. That would, of course, include the hospitals.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he was aware that the whole of the 4th battalion of the East Lancashire Regiment at West Down were without great-coats, and that some of the men in the Manchester Brigade were without any uniform, being compelled trough- out the recent bad weather; and what steps he proposed to take to prevent the recurrence of such scandals?

This matter is one for the county association, but I have made inquiry, and the result is as follows: As regards the supply of great-coats to the Territorial East Lancashire Division, I am informed that all have now been supplied with the exception of 557 men belonging to five different units. It appears that owing to the abnormal number of recruits enlisted during the last three months the contractors have been unable to comply with the demands made upon them.

asked the Secretary for War how many men have been sent to Bulford Camp Hospital during the present period of training, how many have been dealt with in brigade and regimental hospital tents, and what proportion of such cases are traceable to preventible causes, such as inadequate supply of tent-boards and clothing?

The General Officer Commanding-in-Chief reports that 131 cases have been admitted during the present training period to Bulford Military Hospital, 261 to brigade and regimental hospital tents, and 39 to the military hospital at Tidworth. As regards the cases in the East Lancashire Division, 40 have been dealt with in, hospital tents. None of these cases are reported to be traceable to preventible causes, such as inadequate supply of tent-boards and clothing.

Will the right hon. Gentleman before next year take all the steps in his power to ensure that these volunteer Territorials shall not be put to any greater discomfort than is absolutely necessary for the purposes of the training?

Certainly. But I believe there could not be greater anxiety than on the part of the commanders to prevent improper conditions. I will go carefully into the matter.

asked the Secretary for War whether he is aware that Driver E. Haynes, Transport Section. Royal Army Medical Corps, of the East Lancashire Territorials, was removed to Bulford Hospital on Sunday last, he having been taken ill on Friday, but that no intimation has yet been sent to his relatives in Manchester; and whether he will issue directions for notifications to be sent immediately to the relatives of our Territorial soldiers in the event of such illnesses?

I am not aware of the particular case mentioned. The regulations already provide for serious and dangerous cases being reported to the relatives of the patients, and a commanding officer must use his discretion in regard to other cases. If the hon. Member wishes it, I shall be glad to make inquiry.

Territorial Force (Royal Engineer Equipment)

asked the Secretary for War whether all the companies of the Royal Engineers of the Territorial Force have received the equipment authorised by the regulations; and, if not, what number of companies are still deficient in their equipment?

As far as is known no companies are yet altogether completely equipped. Issue is proceeding to all except the wireless and balloon companies as rapidly as possible, but it is not practicable to ascertain exactly how much has been issued without giving great trouble to all concerned. I fully explained the present situation in my reply to a question put by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean on the 26th ultimo.

Is the shortage of equipment mainly if not entirely due to the discharges from Woolwich Arsenal?

It has nothing whatever to do with it. The issue is proceeding pretty rapidly.

Lieutenants of the Line (Promotion)

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the qualifying period of service for promotion to the rank of lieutenant in the infantry of the line.

There is no qualifying period of service for promotion to the rank of lieutenant in the infantry of the line.

:I think the average service of second lieutenants is two and a half years. But if the hon. Member will put down a question I will ascertain.

Army Hospital Blankets

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the blankets of men admitted to hospital are used by other men, without cleaning, for the unexpired portion of 12 months?

If the men admitted to hospital are suffering from any disease likely to convey infection the blankets are not used by other men without cleaning.

1st Royal Garrison (Commanding Officer's Position)

asked the Secretary for War whether the officer commanding the 1st Royal Garrison Regiment was placed on half-pay on disbandment, whereas the commanding officers of other battalions raised during the South African War were allowed to remain on full pay under similar circumstances; whether it is the intention that this officer, who, as regards promotion and pension, had the same prospects as other officers similarly promoted to command battalions during the South African War, should be treated differently to those officers on disbandment of the unit; and whether, after full consideration of all the circumstances, he can see his way to having the dates of this officer's being placed on half-pay, viz., 6th January to 27th May, 1906, cancelled, seeing that the four months during which he was placed on half-pay will prevent his being able to count that time towards promotion to which he would otherwise become qualified?

The case has been fully considered. It is not possible to postdate the date of his going on half-pay as suggested. I must point out that this officer was subsequently appointed to be D.A.A.G., Western Command, and was thus placed in the position for qualifying for the highest pension of a lieutenant-colonel.

Has this officer lost anything in time which will affect his promotion?

No. He has lost his chance of brevet rank because the date of his going on half pay could not be postdated.

Then this officer by four months has lost his chance of a brevet-colonelcy and is treated in a different way from all the other colonels commanding these regiments?

He had not served within four months of the time, but he has been appointed to a position which puts him, as far as pension is concerned, in as good a position.

He has lost promotion, and is treated in a different way to the other colonels of these regiments.

Coast Defences (Landguard Fort)

asked the Secretary of State, for War to whom and at what price the 10-inch gun mounted at Land-guard Fort had been sold; whether his reason for selling this gun is that owing to the removal of the company of Garrison Artillery from Landguard Fort there are no men available to man it, or whether it has been sold for reasons of economy; and whether, seeing that this gun has not yet been removed by the purchaser, he could see his way to cancel the sale and arrange for the ordnance in Landguard Fort to be laced in charge of the local Territorial unit?

In 1905 General Owen's Committee advised that the two 10-inch guns in Landguard Fort were no longer required for the Harwich defences. One gun was accordingly sold to Messrs. Forrester and Co., of Swansea, and the disposal of the other is now under consideration. I think the right hon. and gallant Member will agree that it' is inexpedient to retain for the use of a Territorial unit a gun which is not required for the defences.

May I ask, if that is really to be so, if he will give the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) and myself the opportunity of purchase?

Is it the policy of the Government to dismantle all these coast defences at Harwich?

I have not said so; all I have said is, that we are carrying out the recommendations of General Owen's Committee, which in some cases involves the removal of guns, and in many others the putting of more powerful guns in their place. We are only carrying out the policy of that Committee, which has been approved by the Committee of Defence.

If this gun has been removed, what means of defence is there at the Port of Harwich?

Harwich is very powerfully defended both from the naval and from the military point of view.

Royal Garrison Artillery (Promotion)

asked the Secretary of State for War if it has been brought to his notice that promotion in the Royal Garrison Artillery is in a state of stagnation, owing to the reduction of eight companies and two depôts; whether he is aware that at the rate of 20 promotions a year it will take the junior first lieutenant 27 years to become a captain, and that the chances of the second lieutenants of arriving at that rank is hopeless, subalterns being compulsory retired at the age of 42, and that taking the rate of promotion from lieutenant to captain at seven per annum, the rate of the year 1908, the junior subalterns cannot expect promotion for ninety years; and whether, in view of the fact that this stagnation is detrimental to the regiment, as promotion is more rapid in other corps, he will consider the desirability of allowing the interchange of officers in the three regiments of artillery, or a more frequent employment of officers of the Royal Garrison Artillery in the Special Reserve, Territorial, or Colonial Forces?

It appears probable that a temporary stagnation of promotion in the lower ranks will arise in the next few years, not only in the Garrison, but also in the Field Artillery, due to so many officers having been commissioned in the same year (1900) during the South African War, the number being roughly: Royal Field Artillery 220, Royal Garrison Artil- lery 200. The question has already been brought to my notice, and is engaging my attention.

I know the right hon. Gentleman has taken great interest in this matter. Has he yet been able to come to any decision with regard to the points which have been raised; or, if not, when he expects to be able to come to a decision? There is great anxiety on the subject.

I cannot come to a decision just yet. It is engaging the close attention of the various authorities.

Malta (Legislative Council)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies how many elections for the Legislative Council of Malta have taken place since the proclamation of the Letters Patent; how many protests regarding the composition of the Legislative Council have been sent by elected members and other influential private individuals to His Majesty the King and the Secretary of State for the Colonies; and whether he is prepared to lay all papers bearing on this matter upon the Table of the House?

The number of elections since the proclamation of the Letters Patent is eight, and the number of protests about 23. The Secretary of State does not consider that it would be opportune to lay papers at present.

Police Forces (Weekly Rest Day)

asked the Home Secretary if he has yet seen the Report of the Select Committee appointed to consider the question of the Police Forces (Weekly Rest Day); and, if so, how and when he proposes to give effect to the recommendations contained in it?

The following notice of questions had also been given:—

to ask the Secretary of State whether he is now in a position to make a statement as to the action he proposes to take with regard to the recommendation of the Select Committee on the Police Weekly Rest Day.

to ask the Secretary of State whether he has now considered the Report of the Select Committee on the Police Forces (Weekly Rest Day); and, if so, whether he will state when he proposes to put the recommendations into force.

I have, in consultation with the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police, very carefully considered the Report of the Committee on the weekly rest day for the police, presided over by my right hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe, and I am glad to say that my colleagues and I have decided that effect can and should be given to its recommendations. I shall, therefore, proceed to carry them out as rapidly as is practicable. This will necessarily occupy a certain amount of time. Some 1,400 or 1,500 additional constables will be required, over and above the recruits normally needed each year to fill vacancies and to provide for the increase of work caused by the growth of population, and these could not be obtained at once without lowering the standard of recruiting, which is necessarily a high one. The expansion of the force is also limited by the necessity of training the new recruits before they are fit for service. The time which will be occupied in recruiting and training the whole number of additional men will be several years, but not, I hope, more than four. During that period the privilege of the weekly rest day will be extended gradually throughout the force. It will be understood that in the future, as in the past, every constable will be liable to perform duty on his days of rest whenever special occasions or emergencies make it necessary to call upon him to do so. It has, of course, been recognised throughout that the grant of this privilege will throw a considerable additional cost on the ratepayers of the Metropolitan Police District, but I hope that that cost will be cheerfully borne, in view of the admirable services of the force in the past, and the prospect of rendering them still more efficient for the performance of their difficult duties in the future. The incidence of the increased charge is under my consideration, as is also the question whether there ought not to be a new grant in aid of the Metropolitan Police from Imperial funds, in view of the Imperial services which are rendered by the force.

I am sure the House is deeply grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his reply. May I ask whether he intends to start his gradual process at once?

Electric Light Standards in the Mall

asked the First Commissioner of Works on what date the design of the new electric light standards along the Mall was approved, and when it is expected that the remainder will he erected.

The design was approved by the Queen Victoria Memorial Committee in July, 1907. The standards will be erected as rapidly as the progress made in the foundry permits.

Naval Officers (Travelling in Germany)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty have issued any instructions for British naval officers travelling in Germany.

The answer to the hon. Member's question is in the negative.

British Torpedo Destroyers (Dates of Completion)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty on what dates the seven British destroyers of the 1906–7 and 1907–8 programmes were laid down; and what are the actual and, where the vessels have not yet been completed, what are the anticipated dates of completion?

The "Amazon" was laid down in June, 1907, and completed in April, 1909. The others are not yet delivered. The required dates are:—

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he expects these contract dates of delivery will be exceeded?

No; I have given the dates as far as we know, and these are the actual dates of the delivery of the destroyers.

German Torpedo Destroyers (1907–8 Programme)

asked on what dates the 12 German destroyers of the 1907–8 programme were laid down and on what dates they were completed?

There are no official dates given for the laying down of destroyers. The 1907–8 programme destroyers were laid down between April and the end of the year. I will circulate the official dates for commissioning for trials with the printed papers.

Would it be impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to give the official dates now, so that we could have the opportunity of comparing the speed of the German and our own Navy?

They will be circulated with the Official Papers to-morrow morning, but to read out a long list of German names and dates I do not think would afford much information. [ See Written, Answers this date. ]

British Warships (China and Australian Stations)

asked how many guns of more than 6-inches calibre are mounted in British warships stationed in ultra-European waters; in what ships are they mounted; and where are those ships stationed?

There are four such guns. They are in the "King Alfred" and "Powerful" on the China and Australian stations.

University College Grants

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he can state when the Report of the Treasury Advisory Committee on University College Grants, now 10 months overdue, will be published?

The Report in question was formally moved for by me on Thursday last, and will be presented in a few days.

Superannuation Bill

asked the Secretary to the. Treasury when he proposes to take the second reading of the Superannuation Bill?

It is impossible at present to name a precise date for the second reading of this Bill, but I hope it will be at no distant date.

Declaration of London

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether an agreement has yet been come to with any of the Powers that are signatories to the Declaration of London that the word "l'ennenmi" in Article 34 of that Declaration shall be read to mean the forces of the enemy; and, if so, which of the signatories have agreed to this interpretation?

It is not proposed to invite the signatory Powers to sign a formal agreement. As stated in the answer given on 6th April to the hon. Member for Wycombe, a declaration will be made when the King's ratification is deposited to the effect that the word "l'ennemi" in Article 34 means the Government of the enemy.

Does the hon. Gentleman consider that that will bind the foreign signatories of the Declaration?

I think that it is likely to bring about a satisfactory result. We do not share the doubts of the hon. Member as to the reading of the article.

asked whether any of the signatories of the Declaration of London have yet ratified the Declaration; and, if so, which?

Lanarkshire Sheriff Court

asked the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been called to the fact that actions for large sums for the price of goods sold and delivered instituted in the sheriff court of Glasgow are being delayed for seven to nine months by counterclaims of damages set up by defenders in respect of alleged breaches of contract; whether he is aware that these delays occur from overpressure of work in that court; and whether, in view of the fact that they ere of serious import in a trading community, he will take any action to relieve the pressure?

I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to this question on 10th June. (See Official Report, col. 607.)

Is the Department of the right hon. and learned Gentleman impressed with the importance to the trading community of such delays as are spoken of in this question being avoided?

Yes; we are much impressed with the importance of such delays being avoided.

Roads (Removal of Dust)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to a Return published by the Roads Improvement Association (Incorporated) giving particulars of the methods adopted and materials used by the road authorities of Great Britain to render their roads dustless during 1907–8; whether he can see his way to recommend the Treasury to make a small grant to the association towards the cost of the collection and publication of these statistics, which have proved to be of considerable practical value; and whether he will take steps to secure that the authority to be entrusted with the distribution of the new road grant shall also, undertake the systematic collection of statistics and information relating to the highways of England and Wales?

My attention has been drawn to the Return mentioned in the question. I am afraid I do not see my way to recommend the Treasury to make a grant to the Roads Improvement Association towards the cost of the collection and publication of the statistics referred to. The suggestion in the last part of the question has already been noted for consideration in connection with the arrangements for the administration of the proposed grant.

Flag Station, Glenflesk, County Kerry

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he sent his railway traffic. inspector, Mr. M'Nulty, to report on the necessity for a flag station at Glenflesk, county Kerry; whether his report was strongly in favour of such a station in the interests of agriculture; whether the Great Southern and Western Railway Company refused to erect this station, though the people of Kerry are paying a yearly guarantee of £1,200 for this line; and if the Department can take any steps to enforce their inspector's report and meet the requirements of the people?

The officer mentioned being instructed to inquire as to the proposal for the erection of a flag-station at Curreal Crossing, Glenflesk, reported that the provision of the station would be of advantage. The Department communicated with the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, who replied that the matter had been fully considered, and that there was no prospect of sufficient traffic arising at the place to warrant them in going to the expense of erecting the proposed station. It does not appear that the Department have any power to compel the company to provide the station.

Does the hon. Gentleman's reply mean that the Department is simply wasting time and money in making inquiries instead of carrying out the recommendation?

At the request of the hon. Member the Department did all they possibly could to get the flag station placed where he asks, but the railway company refused to do so.

Town Planning Bill (Increment Value)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to clause 57 of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Bill, which provides that the amount of any increase in the value of town property caused by the operation of any town-planning scheme shall be recoverable by the local authority from the owner, and to the fact that under clause 1 of the Finance Bill increment value duty will also be payable by the owner in respect of this increment already handed over by him to the local authority; and whether he will state if it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to proceed with both these clauses?

Both clauses will be proceeded with, but it will be made clear by an Amendment of the Finance Bill that increment value duty will not be payable in respect of .an increment handed over to the local authority.

Emperor of Russia's Visit to England

asked the Prime Minister whether he will afford the House an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the forthcoming visit of the Emperor of Russia to Cowes before the date of the visit is finally settled?

The time of the visit is already fixed for early in August. The Foreign Office Vote will be put down for some day before that date.

Miners' Housing Accommodation (Scotland)

asked whether the Secretary for Scotland has made any inquiry founded on the representations made to him by a deputation of miners in January last relating to the insufficient and unsatisfactory housing accommodation for miners in certain districts in Scotland; and whether he will take steps to ensure that, in pending legislation or in the near future, adequate statutory provision shall be made to deal with the evil?

The Local Government Board for Scotland have requested the county medical officers of the leading mining counties of Lanark, Ayr, Stirling, and Fife to report on the housing conditions of miners in their respective districts. As soon as the information at the disposal of these officers is received the Secretary for Scotland will consider what further action is required to deal with the subject.

Education (Scotland) Fund

asked the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been called to the Minute of the Scottish Education Department dated 3rd instant, distributing the balance of the Education (Scotland) Fund under section 16 (2) of last year's Act; whether this Minute is so framed as to give greater aid to those districts in which per head of the population the burden of expenditure on educational purposes approved by the Department is excessive as compared with the valuation of the district; whether, in view of that Act, he can explain why Peeblesshire with an expenditure of £.95 per head of the population and a valuation £12.12 receives 20s. 2d. for every pupil in average attendance, whereas Linlithgowshire with an expenditure of £.85 and a valuation of £6.50 receives only 9s. per pupil; whether Peeblesshire with an average school attendance of 2,028 pupils receives £2,047, while Linlithgowshire with an average attendance of 12,973 pupils only receive £5,881; and whether he will take steps to reconcile these results with the principles laid down in the Act and make them fair to the poorer district of Linlithgowshire, where the burden of expenditure is excessive as compared with the valuation?

The Minute in question is so framed as to carry out the instructions of the Act. The burden of educational expenditure as compared with the valuation of the district cannot be described as " excessive " in either of the districts compared, but, as a matter of fact, Linlithgowshire, notwithstanding the figures quoted by the hon. Member, does receive greater aid from the institution of the Education (Scotland) Fund than Peebles-shire, the former county receiving £211 more than formerly and the latter £32 only. It is not admitted that the "greater aid" in terms of the Act must be in exact proportion to relative cost and valuation; there are other factors to be considered.

Tain Royal Academy

asked the Lord Advocate whether the Scottish Education Department contemplate making any additions to the committee on secondary education for Ross and Cromarty; and, if so, whether he can give an assurance that the Tain Royal Academy will receive representation on the committee?

The question of the constitution of the several secondary education committees is at present under the consideration of the Department, and it is not possible in the meantime to make any statement as to the proposed constitution of any committee.

Motor Cars (Irish Departments)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that there are at least 29 officers in the large Irish Departments who use their own motor cars on the public service, viz., Local Government Board eight, National Education Office eight, Land Commission five, Board of Works three, Department of Agriculture three, County Court Vote two, and three officers of the Congested Districts Board who use motor cycles with the approval of the Department; and whether he can see his way to make some reduction in their cases, either in the taxation on their machines or on the petrol they use?

further asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Treasury in 1905 sanctioned an arrangement for two counties whereby county and district inspectors of the Royal Irish Constabulary were allowed to use their own motor cars and to draw the usual forage allowance of £50 per annum in lieu of the mileage rate; and whether he proposes to make any exemption in these and similar cases with regard to taxation of the motor cars or the petrol used?

I am aware that the Treasury sanctioned an arrangement of the kind. I do not, as at present advised, see my way to make any special exemption in the case of these officers, or of those specified in the subsequent question put by the hon. Member with regard to the proposed new taxation on motor cars and petrol.

Old Age Pension (Maria Lennon, Naas)

asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the case of Maria Lennon, pensioner (No. 450/458), by the Naas North pension sub-committee; whether her pension was stopped through an error by the clerk to the said sub-committee, who reported on 7th May that a question concerning the pension had been decided adversely to the pensioner, but who rectified the error on the 11th May; whether the pension officer to whom the clerk reported declined to alter his report on the error being pointed out, with the result that the pensioner has been disqualified; and whether the question concerning the pension has been since decided in favour of the pensioner; and, if so, will he, under the circumstances, order the pension to be restored and the arrears paid?

The facts in this case are are follows: On 24th April a, question was raised by the officer as to the continuance of the pension on the ground that the pensioner was in receipt of poor relief. The officer subsequently received a notice from the clerk to the local pension committee that the pension had been disallowed, and the book of pension orders was accordingly taken up. On 11th May the clerk wrote to the officer requesting the return of the above notice, and stating that the decision of the committee had been adjourned to give the pensioner an opportunity of attending the next meeting. On 4th June the clerk informed the officer that the question had been decided in the pensioner's favour, and the officer at once appealed to the Local Government Board. The result of the appeal is not yet known. Pending the decision of the Local Government Board, the officer has been instructed to restore the pension order book to the pensioner, to whom the arrears for the time the pension was stopped will be paid.

Return of Owners of Land

asked what was the number of assessments of owners of land required to complete the Return of Owners of Land, 1873 (Cd. 1097, of 1875); and whether any corresponding estimate exists of the number of assessments required, to include London, Scotland, and Ireland, not dealt with in the Return?

I understand that the Return in question, which was compiled by the Local Government Board, was made in respect of nearly 15,000 parishes, containing about 5,000,000 separate assessments. No corresponding estimate exists, so far as I am aware, of the number of assessments which would have been required to include Scotland and Ireland. There is no similar Return in regard to London, but the number of assessments in the administrative county is given as 793,429, according to the valuation lists in force on 6th April, 1908.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can give any estimate of the number of assessments which would be required from .owners of land in the United Kingdom tinder the Finance Bill?

The number of assessments cannot be computed with precision until the returns from owners have been examined in accordance with the provisions of the Finance Bill.

asked whether the owners of commons and waste lands were included in the Return of Owners of Land, 1873; and what was the extent of such lands in the United Kingdom in 1873 and a recent year, respectively?

The total extent of common and waste lands in England and Wales (exclusive of London) was given in the Return of 1875, but the number and names of the owners were not given. The total area of such lands was estimated at 1,524,648 acres, but I understand that this total can only be regarded as approximate. There are no recent statistics as to the extent of commons and waste lands.

asked what was the total cost of the Return of Landowners, 1873; whether this includes the expenses incurred by the various boards of guardians in preparing their replies to the schedules issued to them; and what would be the estimated additional cost to the Exchequer, the local authorities, and the persons owning or having some interest in land, respectively, if, instead of the estimated gross rental required for the above Return, separate returns were required of total value and site value, as required in the Finance Bill now before Parliament?

Special payments were made out of moneys voted by Parliament, amounting to £18,815, to meet the cost of the Return. This amount included sums paid to boards of guardians for the preparation of the particulars required from them. I am unable to say what would have been the cost of the Return in the hypothetical circumstances cited by the hon. Member.

Finance Bill (Development of Land)

asked if the erection of greenhouses or outbuildings on land used as a garden or pleasure ground in connection with a dwelling-house will be considered as a development of the land under Clause 10 of the Finance Bill?

The question whether bonâ fide development has taken place is one of fact, to be determined on the merits of each case.

That is exactly what I am telling the hon. Member. It depends on the circumstances of each case. It is not necessarily a dwelling-house, but there should be a bonâ fide use.

That is exactly what I am asking, whether it is a dwelling-house, or whether an outhouse will be sufficient to cause the land to be developed. That is what people are anxious to know.

It depends entirely on the circumstances of each case whether it is purely a building put up in order to avoid the tax, or whether it is bonâ fide use of the land for that particular purpose. It is a question of bona fides.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give a somewhat more definite answer when the Bill comes up for discussion?

Army and Navy Co-operative Stores

asked whether such institutions as the Army and Navy Auxiliary Cooperative Stores, Limited, pay any Income Tax on their profits earned; and, if not, whether it is so on account of the fact that the majority of their shareholders or members have less than £160 per annum of income, and therefore would be entitled to have the Income Tax returned?

The Army and Navy Auxiliary Co-operative Supply, Limited, is an ordinary registered Company, chargeable with Income Tax on its profits.

How does the Department differentiate between this class of company and the ordinary incorporated company?

The ordinary incorporated companies are not companies in the ordinary sense of the term. They are not registered companies.

Dock Land (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the lands held for the purposes of their undertakings and restricted by statute for such purposes by public dock and harbour trustees will be liable for taxation under the Finance Bill; and, if so, will he, in view of the facts that these bodies are rating authorities, do not exist for private gain but for the public benefit, and do not resell the land, consider the advisability of exempting such lands from taxation under the Bill?

Land held by public dock and harbour trustees, even though they may not be, technically speaking, rating authorities, will under clause 25 of the Bill be exempt from taxation, so long as the land is occupied and used by the trustees for the purposes of their undertaking. If the trustees are technically rating authorities within the meaning of clause 24, as will sometimes be the case, their land is exempt from taxation under that clause.

Will dock lands in the hands of private owners also be exempted from taxation?

That depends entirely on their use. If they are simply waste lands which are not used, they will not be subject to taxation.

I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman did not quite appreciate my question. What I wish to know is whether they will have the same exemption in private hands as they will have in public hands?

If the Noble Lord will give me the exact circumstances that he pre-supposes, I shall be glad to answer the question.

In the case of a large commercial undertaking which directly competes with a municipal undertaking?

Would land be held to be occupied if bought, say, ten years beforehand and not intended to be used until that time expired?

That is exactly what I wish to know. If my hon. Friend pre-supposes a case where land is vacant and not used at all, and simply held up, then, of course, it would be liable in the same way as any other undertaking.

Every land may be said to be held up with the view to future use. I cannot draw a distinction between dock companies and other undertakings.

Assessment Methods (England and Scotland)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether rates are assessed in Scotland on the actual sums paid as rent by tenants, without any deductions, whereas in England rates are assessed on what is called the rateable value, which usually amounts to about two-thirds of the actual sums paid as rent by the tenants; if so, will he say whether this also applies to public-houses and to licensed grocers' premises; and will he see that this inequality between the two countries is taken cognisance of in the Finance Bill now before the House?

The rates of licence duty are charged in the same manner in both countries, namely, according to the rent or annual value of the premises as determined by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise under the Excise Regulation Acts.

Minerals Assessable (Definition)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is included under the term "Minerals" in the Finance Bill; and will he insert in the Bill a definition of the substances so included?

"Minerals" a phrase which has a distinct legal meaning, and is constantly used in legal documents without definition. The phrase has been the subject of various decisions in courts of law, and I am advised that the effect of any attempt to incorporate the various decisions in a definition may result in a complication rather than a simplification of the law.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give a list of the articles he proposes to tax under the Finance Act?

Of course, if a question is put to me in regard to any specific article, I should like to refer to the decisions as to that article. I will say that if you give a list in the Act of Parliament that simply excludes the rest by the mere fact that you have given a list in the statute.

Is it not quite justice, for instance, to the owners of a salt mine to say whether they are to be taxed by this particular land clause of the Act?

There is not the slightest doubt that if it is a mineral it will be liable to the tax. The decision would cover that case as well as any other case.

If the hon. Member asks me a question as to a specific element or commodity I shall be very glad to give him a specific answer.

May I ask whether it would not be simpler to put a definition in the Bill?

On the contrary, I am advised by those whose advice the hon. Member would be ready to follow that if you give a list of all the articles that are to be taxed in the Act of Parliament that may exclude some articles which should be taxed.

May I ask whether the reason for not giving a list is that some uncertainty exists?

The hon. Member is perfectly wrong. There is no uncertainty at all. I should not have thought that there was any uncertainty as to what was meant by minerals.

Income Tax (Assessment of Private Limited Companies)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that many private limited companies consist merely of shareholders who are all workers in the business; whether, as such, the dividends are, as a matter of fact, purely earned money; and whether, in that case, he can see his way to allow them to be treated as earned income rather than as unearned income for purposes of differentiation in Income Tax?

I am unable to extend special treatment to the case of these particular companies.

Chloroform and Other Drugs (Increased Duties.)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the principle upon which the increased duties are imposed on chloroform and various kinds of ether under the Finance Bill; and why any higher duty than 3s. 9d per gallon should be levied on such spirits?

Special duties on certain special articles, including chloroform and the various kinds of ether, have been in force for many years. They were originally fixed by reference to the estimated quantity of spirits ordinarily used in their manufacture. By the present Finance Bill the rates are raised proportionately to the increase in the spirit duty.

May I inquire whether the idea is that the duties on these articles are only increased proportionately?

The hon. Member knows that when you raise a charge on spirits it is difficult to say whether the article is to be used for medicinal purposes. I will consider the question.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that spirits taken in the form of medicine are not a luxury, and will he further consider the advisability of remitting this taxation when the spirits are used for medicinal purposes?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total amount of revenue which he anticipates he will raise from the new duties on chloroform, ether, and other drugs?

I am not in a position to give any exact estimate of the revenue for the current financial year from the duties on these particular articles. The total net revenue during the last financial year was £2,127.

Revenue from Taxes on Food and Drink

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the total amount of revenue, Excise and Customs, derived from food and drink during the last financial year?

I will circulate the detailed figures in reply to this question with the Votes. [ See Written Answers this date. ]

Land at Ballybroghan (Roscommon)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has been made aware that a certain farm of 90 acres at Ballybroghan, Tulsk, county Roscommon, on the estate of the late Ffrench Brewster, said to be under agreement to be sold to Jane Hague, the daughter of a neighbouring landlord, has never been held by the lady in question as bonâ-fide tenant (judicial or otherwise) previous to the passing of the Act of 1903; and, if so, whether he can intervene to secure that the intentions of Parliament will be carried out by the farm being parcelled out amongst the small holders in the district?

As I have already informed the hon. Member, in reply to the question asked by him on 20th May last, the Estates Commissioners tell me that the farm in question appears to be held by Jane Hague under a judicial rent fixed in 1891.

Ranch at Larkfield, Roscommon (Case of Mr. J. O'Donnell)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it has been brought to the notice of the Estates Commissioners or of the Congested Districts Commissioners that a Mr. John O'Donnell, of Larkfield, Manorhamilton, county Roscommon, holds a ranch of 400 acres of land in the parish of Kilronan, in the same county, on which he is non-resident, and that he is willing to sell the same for the purpose of enlarging a number of small non-economic holdings in the neighbourhood; and, if so, whether the Commissioners will be prepared to negotiate for the purchase?

In September, 1907, Mr. John O'Donnell, of Larkfield, Manorhamilton, offered 372 acres in Roscommon to the Congested Districts Board, but owing to the want of funds for the improvement of estates the Board were unable to enter into negotiations. He also approached the Estates Commissioners, but they found that the lands were subject to a land purchase annuity, and that they were therefore precluded by the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, from making any advance for their purchase.

Untenanted Land for Small Holders (Kilronan)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether a ranch containing 265 acres of untenanted land, in the parish of Kilronan, formerly the property of the Countess of Kingston, has been sold, under the Act of 1903, with a view to division amongst the small holders in the vicinity; whether any steps have yet been taken to carry out the object in question; and, if not, whether he can state to what purpose the land is being applied?

In the absence of further information the Estates Commis- sioners are unable to identify the particular lands to which the hon. Member refers. If he will furnish the name of the lands further inquiries will be made.

Case of Mrs. Johanna O'Connor (East Covil, Kerry)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he could state what efforts have been made by the Estates Commissioners to secure the reinstatement of Mrs. Johanna O'Connor, an evicted tenant, of East Covil, Valentia, county Kerry?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that Johanna O'Connor's former holding is in the occupation of other tenants. Her name has been noted for consideration in the allotment of untenanted land.

Reenard Pier, County Kerry

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that inconvenience is being caused by the unfinished condition of the pier at Reenard, county Kerry; and can he say when its construction will be completed?

I am informed that some inconvenience from the work of widening and extending this boatslip is unavoidable, but every possible step is taken to minimise it. The works will probably be completed in the summer or autumn of 1910.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much money has been expended on this Pier, which takes so long to finish?

I know that the locality has contributed £30 out of a total expenditure of £2,500.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why, if it only costs £2,500, it takes two years to build the pier?

I cannot answer that question off hand, but everybody knows that work on tidal waters does take a considerable time.

Mackerel Fishing, Valentia Harbour (Railway Facilities)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, although 60 large boats are engaged in fishing from Valentia Harbour, the Great Southern and Western Railway had only one P waggon to carry away the fresh mackerel on the morning of 3rd June, and the rest of the catch was not carried away till that evening, whereby serious loss has been caused; whether he is aware that the same thing happened on the morning of 4th June; and whether he proposes to take any, and, if so, what steps to compel the railway company to make proper provision for dealing with the fish traffic at this centre?

The Department have made inquiries in the matter, and have been informed that no complaint appears to have been made to the Railway Company as to shortage of railway vehicles on the occasions referred to in the question. The Department have also been informed that if the traffic had been tendered to the company in due time on the morning of 3rd June arrangements would have been made for its despatch by the early train. The Department are not aware that delay occurred in the despatch of traffic on 4th June. The chief officers of the railway company have been interviewed on the subject, and the Department have asked that provision may be made to prevent any further disappointment in the carriage of this traffic.

Land at Beechwood Park, North Tipperary

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Estates Commissioners have received a memorial from the occupiers of uneconomic holdings on the estate of the late Lady Osborne, of Beechwood Park, Nenagh, North Tipperary, requesting them to purchase the untenanted land on this estate for the enlargement of their holdings; and, if so, what steps they purpose taking in the matter?

The Estates Commissioners received the memorial referred to and sent a copy of it to the owner, who has informed them that there is no untenanted land on the estate with the exception of her demesne and deer park, which she has no intention of selling.

Kenmare Estate (Mr. O'Shea's Farm)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the Estates Commissioners can explain how their valuer, Mr. Ryan, informed Mr. Daniel O'Shea, R.D.C., and his solicitor, on the occasion of his valuing Mr. O'Shea's farm on the Kenmare estate, that he would fix the value at £100, or £1 5s. per Irish acre, and that, subsequently, when Mr. Ryan's report was submitted to the landlord the valuation was fixed at £108?

I have referred this question to the Estates Commissioners, who tell me that their inspector stated that he did not inform either Mr. O'Shea or his solicitor of his estimate of the price of the holding in question.

Queen's University Statutes

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if the statute presented by Queen's University, Belfast, proposes to constitute a readership in scholastic philosophy; whether he is aware that the statute was presented on 24th May and is not yet available for Members; and whether he will explain this encroachment on the 40 days prescribed by the Act during which it has to lie upon the Table of the House of Commons, in view of the importance to a large section of the people in Ulster?

I understand that these statutes were circulated as a House of Commons Paper on Friday last. The circulation of papers ordered by the House of Commons to be printed is a matter for the Stationery Office, and is not under my control. I would, however, point out that, in pursuance of Section 5 of the Irish Universities Act, copies of the statute were put on sale by the Commissioners on 21st May, and that a notice to that effect appeared in the Dublin "Gazette" of that date. Under chapter 16 scholastic philosophy is one of the subjects of the faculty of arts. The question of conferring the title of reader on any lecturer of the University is one for the academic council and the senate.

Blennerhassett Tenants (County Kerry)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that some of the tenants on the R. P. Blennerhassett estate, in the parish of Dromod, county Kerry, have been processed because they refused to sign purchase agreements; and can he say what steps the Estates Commissioners will take in order to bring about a settlement?

The Estates Commissioners inform me that certain tenants on this estate have not signed purchase agreements, and are therefore liable for the payment of rent to the owner as heretofore. The circumstances in which they have refused to sign will be inquired into when the estate is being dealt with in its order of priority under the Irish Land Act, 1903, but the Commissioners have no power to interfere with any legal proceedings which the owner may have instituted for the collection of any rent due.

Labourers Acts, Ireland (Delay of Schemes)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware of the delay caused to the carrying out of schemes under the Labourers Acts, because of the difficulty in obtaining the result of searches, notwithstanding repeated appli-is he aware that the Omagh Rural Council is unable to proceed with its scheme owing to the inability of its solicitor to obtain searches, notwithstanding repeated applications to the Registrar of Deeds; will he make inquiries if the delay is due to insufficiency of staff in the Registry of Deeds Office; and, if so, will steps be taken to increase it so as to avoid further delay in the carrying out of the Labourers Acts.

The Local Government Board have not received any complaints of undue delay in the Registry of Deeds. The registrar informs me that 141 requisitions for searches for the purposes of the Labourers Acts have been lodged by the solicitor for the Omagh Rural District Council. Of these 113 have been disposed of, and seven were returned and have not been relodged. As regards the remaining twenty-one, eleven searches are now being made, and all will be completed during the present week. There has been an unprecedented pressure of work in the Registry of Deeds owing to the great number of searches requisitioned by the Examiners of Title in the Land Commission, and by the solicitors for the Rural District Councils in connection with the acquisition of land under the Labourers Acts. The Registrar of Deeds has obtained the sanction of the Treasury to the officials working overtime, and at present they are working eight hours each week in addition to the prescribed office hours. Every effort is thus being made to cope with the demands made upon the department.

Strangford Bar Buoy

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to state the result of the recent conference between the Irish Lights Commissioners and Trinity Brethren with regard to the position of Strangford Bar buoy, county Down?

I am informed by the Irish Lights Commissioners that they propose to withdraw the buoy from its present position and to place it off Ballyquinton Point.

Railway Amalgamations Committee

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now state what is the composition and what will be the scope and the reference of the Departmental Committee on Railway Amalgamations and Combinations?

The Committee will be appointed to consider and report as soon as practicable what changes, if any, are expedient in the law relating to agreements among railway companies, and what, if any, general provisions ought to be embodied for the purpose of safeguarding the various interests affected in future Acts of Parliament authorising railway amalgamations or working unions. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Russell Rea) has consented to act as chairman of the Committee, and the Noble Lord the Member for East Marylebone (Lord Robert Cecil), and my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Sir Maurice Levy), and the Senior Member for Norwich (Mr. G. H. Roberts) have agreed to serve on it. Other Members are Lord Hamilton of Dalzell, Lord Newton, Mr. J. S. Beale, Mr. Alexander Siemens, Mr. Ernest Moon, and Mr. W. Temple Franks.

Welsh Disestablishment Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether it is true, as has been reported, that the Government do not intend to proceed beyond the second reading of the Welsh Church Disestablishment Bill?

Is it true that the right hon. Gentleman has made an announcement to a section of his supporters, and is it not courteous that the same announcement should be made to the House?

Flogging Convicts

asked the Home Secretary whether it is a fact that a convict named Wallace, for assaulting a warder at Princetown, has been sentenced by the visiting justices to receive two dozen strokes of the cat, or, in other words, 216 lashes, and wear a black dress and chains for six months, and be subjected to 42 days' bread and water diet; and that another convict named Gillett, for assaulting a warder, was sentenced to 18 strokes of the cat or 162 lashes, and to be kept on a bread and water diet for 42 days, and undergo solitary confinement; and whether the right hon. Gentleman has had those sentences under consideration, and whether, having regard to their extreme severity, and to the trend of public opinion against the punishment of the cat, he has considered the desirability of remitting that portion of the sentences?

The cases mentioned have come before me, but the particulars given by the hon. Member are not accurate. In the case of Wallace the corporal punishment imposed was the birch, not the cat, and in neither case was any dietary punishment inflicted. The offences in both cases were of a most serious character; the former a murderous attack on an elderly warder, and the other an attempt to gouge out an assistant warder's eye, for which the convict himself could offer no excuse. In these circumstances I have not felt justified in refusing to confirm the sentences of the Board of Visitors, and they have, I understand, been carried out.

New Universities, Ireland (Statutes)

On a point of order. with regard to the laying on the Table of statutes of the new Universities in Ireland and the dates in connection with this particular duty of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, I wish to point out that on the 24th of May these statutes are returned as having been effectively presented to the two Houses of Parliament, but they were only available for Members this morning. I believe that after the House rose on Friday it would have been possible for a Member to come down to the House and obtain a copy of some of these statutes, but the Pink Paper was only issued on Friday evening, and reached Members on Saturday morning, and consequently, to all intents and purposes, the 14th of June was the earliest opportunity on which it was possible that these important statutes could be obtained, unless they were purchased by those who knew that they had been advertised by the right hon. Gentleman. These statutes were presented, I understand, in manuscript, and the dates counted from the 24th of May, as they were presented in dummy. The dates should be counted from the time they were actually circulated to Members, and I desire to ask whether it would not be possible that these statutes or other matters required by law to be laid before the House should be counted from the time they are circulated to Members, or, failing that, whether it would be possible for this House to insist that all these matters of so-called Rules, Orders, etc., should be presented to the House in duplicate, and one copy, the original, kept by the officials of this House for reference by Members from the very day from which they are counted as being presented, while the other duplicate copy may be sent off to the official printers. I inquired day after day for these statutes, and I was informed that they had been made, and that they had been immediately sent off to the printers. The result is that instead of 40 days for effecting any alterations and improvements that may be desired we have now only 19 days left on which to draft Amendments or take steps to have those statutes amended properly. The Act on which these statutes arise was to a large extent passed through this House on the understanding that the full time would be given for dealing with all these statutes after they had been made. Now we find that instead of having 40 days to deal with those very lengthy and very weighty statutes we have only 19 days on which to consult our friends in Ireland, who are very much interested in this matter, and take any other steps that may be necessary in the matter. I consider that we have been very badly treated in the matter, and I wish to ask your ruling whether in an important matter of this kind the time within which the matter may be discussed should count from the date of the actual presentation or should count in future from the date on which it is actually available?

I believe that a similar question was put to my predecessor, whose ruling was that the proper time from which the forty days, or whatever other period was named, should count was the time at which the Paper became "available." In each case I must only consider whether or not the particular Paper had become available. The hon. and gallant Gentleman suggests that it might be desirable to present these Papers in duplicate. I think that that probably would be a very suitable and proper course to pursue. I hardly think that when a Paper is presented in manuscript it should be at once sent off, as I believe happened in this case, to Ireland to be printed. It certainly ought to be, either in manuscript or in the form of a printed copy, in the Library available for Members.

Are there any means of conveying to all the Departments that this House should be treated with the moderate amount of respect which is involved in presenting at least one duplicate copy, so that the spirit of all these statutes may be satisfied?

May I ask, Sir, wheher under your ruling you can make it possible to count the forty days from to-day instead of from the 24th May.

I think there was a time when this particular Paper was available on the 24th May. It was certainly printed, and I understand circulated in Ireland, even before that date, and therefore to those specially interested in the matter the Paper was available. I hope that the question will not arise again, and that the hon. Member may find an opportunity within the next nineteen days of raising the points which he desires to bring forward.

Supply [9th Allotted Day]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. EMMOTT in the chair.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1909–10 [Class II]

(IN THE COMMITTEE.)

Motion made and Question proposed: "That a sum, not exceeding £140,800, be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st March, 1910, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Home Department and Subordinate Offices."

The first question which we raised last year, and the year before, on this Vote was that of infant mortality as affected by the employment of mothers in factories. That subject has been .so fully before the public mind that I prefer to-day to pass it by and to dwell upon that which is always most in our minds, particularly in connection with all labour legislation, namely, the condition in factory labour and the labour generally of children of tender years. During the present year, since the date covered by this Report now before us, there has been an extraordinary number, proportionately speaking, of inquests, in which most painful facts have been revealed with regard to the employment of children of about 13 years of age. The infant mortality caused by the employment of mothers is now the subject of a Government inquiry. A great deal of information is now being collected with regard to it, and a good deal of progress has been made. Even now we have not reduced infant mortality in anything like the proportion of reduction of mortality generally, which is very great. Although we stand far before other countries in the reduction of general mortality, as regards infant mortality that is not yet the case. There are still districts, like some portions of Lancashire, and still more in Pottery towns, where infant mortality is still terribly high. There has been a most valuable report circulated within the last fortnight by the Bureau at Washington on "Wage Earning Women and Children in Great Britain," and there are remarks in that report on this subject which bear very closely on matters which I should like to mention to the House. The Committee are aware that the Bureau at Washington reports even more fully on what occurs in other countries than on what takes place in the United States, and internationally the value of the Bureau's work is very great indeed. Irish Members are sometimes inclined to assume that these questions do not concern them, but it is a painful fact that this report separates Ireland from Great Britain, because, whatever evils exist here, they are still more marked in the case of Ireland. The American report says:— The American report also contains this passage, which applies to very few towns, but it is still a disgrace to us that it should be used at all:— by the lady inspectors. After all, bad as we are in England,

The point I wish to submit to the Government is that there is a statute by which they can be protected, and which overrides the other Act to which I have made reference. On 7th May I put a question to the Home Office, which was answered by the Under-Secretary during the illness of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone) as to an inquest on the death of a little piecer, aged 13, who was killed on the day on which he commenced work. A good many of these accidents occur on the first day the children go to work. I believe it is not the custom to employ them under the age of 13, or there are few employed under 13, and that the previous employment of the boy to which the reply alluded was as a learner, and not as a piecer—that is the suggestion. Statistics do not fairly distinguish the ages at which they pass from being learners to piecers. In one inquest it was undoubtedly the first day of work for the child, and in another case it was proved that the child had worked previously. In that case the learning may have had the effect of giving a false sense of security. The reply of the Home Office stated that the death was caused by a self-acting mule; that he to when learning the work. I simply throw out these suggestions, because I am sure the hon. Member for Bolton and others, whatever mistakes we make in describing these matters to the House, must feel with us that there has been a frequency of fatal accidents to little children lately which deserves some attention, and which the whole Committee ought to co-operate in seeking to amend. The American Report deals with this very point, and curiously enough it assumes the general application and applicability to these cases of the Act of 1903, which I pressed upon the consideration of the Government last year; but the Home Office inspectors in their reports appear not to contemplate any such general use of the Act. Miss Squire, in the present year, as reported in the "Cotton Factory Times" of 21st May, instituted prosecutions where these very questions were raised. The prosecutions were against two firms in Burnley on the same day. In both cases they met the prosecution by prosecuting the workmen. Miss Squire is reported as having said, in a short speech on the first case, that she knew she was attacking a custom which was very prevalent in the district; she assumes there is a general acceptance of illegality, and that the law is not complied with. She said that she was attacking this custom with great difficulty, because as soon as an inspector goes into a mill the looms are stopped. She gave her evidence, and tried to prove by witnesses, that the firms had been careless in both these cases; but the magistrates were met by the workmen pleading guilty of carelessness, and taking the blame upon themselves. In both cases the workmen were fined 10s. and the cases ended. But there was a question put by the magistrate's clerk after the fines had been inflicted which I think was significant. He asked the children whether they had been warned. One child, on being asked "Were you ever told not to clean machinery in motion, "replied" Only since the lady inspector came." That is a very terrible sentence with which to end the Report, because apparently, until the intervention of the magistrate's clerk, the whole thing seemed satisfactory.

We have had a whole series of cases connected with self-acting mules. There is a reference to self-acting mules in the index of this Report, but it does not help us very much, because it only says that the Welsh part of the regulations has been published. There is nothing in the Report about the class of accident in the cotton industry in Lancashire to which I have been alluding. There are cases of accidents to children by machinery outside the cotton industry, and they are largely mentioned in the Report. On page 137 the House will find a very severe comment on the employment of young children in laundries, with which I do not propose to deal, because I do not wish to detain the Committee at too great length. There is a reference to putting young untrained girls to a most dangerous task—to work which "should have only been entrusted to an experienced engineer." That, I think, needs no comment from me. Miss Paterson alludes to the section in the Act prohibiting the cleaning by young persons of dangerous parts of machinery; she refers to the great number of laundry accidents to young girls in cleaning ironing machines, and getting caught between the rollers and crushed. Reference is also made to girls of 16 who have been injured in large numbers, and there we find a comment which we find also in other places, to which I alluded just now, namely, as to the pluck of the young people inducing them to treat as slight, accidents which are in fact very serious, leading in some cases to life-long partial disablement. In the hosiery trade there has been a great number of accidents to children. These are referred to on page 140 of the Special Report on Accidents in the Hosiery Trade. The accidents described are of a most painful character, and they are all in the nature of tending or cleaning machinery in motion by very young people. There are shocking comments upon these cases by Miss Paterson, but I will not detain the Committee by reading them. On page 15 of the General Report there is a statement that special attention has been given by the Department to the provisions of the Employment of Children Act, 1903, to which I referred—provisions of a wider character than those contained in the Factory Acts. My complaint is that these wider provisions have not been acted upon, and that the general powers have not been used, although they have been thought of in connection with comparatively minor points. It is stated that the attention of the inspectors has been drawn to the employment of children under 14 in moving heavy weights, and in occupations prejudicial to their safety, and to the possibility of prosecutions for such contravention of the law, not only outside, but in places subject to the Factory Acts; but there is no specific reference to the power of overriding by that provision the technical limitation involved in the unfortunate treatment of persons under 14 as children" for every other purpose, but as "young persons" for the purpose of avoiding the prohibition of tending machinery in motion. Well, now, I have done with that, which is my main point to-day.

I will now pass to matters which I consider also deserving, though less important than those I have referred to, of the immediate attention of the Government and the Committee. I see my hon. Friend who has asked so many questions during the course of the last Session about florists. I have heard of meetings upon the subject. But there are certain subjects apart from the ordinary which have perhaps in past years occupied almost an undue amount of our time and attention on account of their extreme technicality and difficulty, and on account of our strong objection to the exceptional treatment of trades and the breaking down, by variation, of the whole object of the Factory Acts. When you make inspection difficult, nobody knows exactly what the law is. These exceptional subjects have been a source of great weariness to the House, and they have taken up a great deal of our time. We have made, however, some progress. For instance, in relation to the fish and jam industries, if they have taken up an undue amount of time, the importance of the interests involved must be considered, and the number of people concerned. But progress has been made, and it is necessary to make this point, because of the danger attending these exceptions to the general law. The report has a full statement, showing the improvement as regards the fish and jam trades. The restrictions of exceptions have obviously made in our direction, although not so fast as we could have wished, but they have clearly led to a great improvement.

In the South-Eastern district (page 13) there is a most admirable account of what has been done. In the North-Western district it is the same, and in the Northern division (page 105) it is pointed out that fruit-preserving factories received frequent inspection, and the " Secretary of State's certificate has been a very valuable means of forcing conditions otherwise difficult to obtain." On page 57 you will find that from Swansea the results are satisfactory, though in the Southampton district one factory worked a few times illegally. On page 150 the lady inspectors say that attention has been directly called to both of these trades (fish and jam). On page 150, in the matter of fish curing, Miss Newton says:—

As regards florists, I will not now go into detail and discuss the matter fully. I believe it is to some extent sub judice at the present time, being the subject of an inquiry before Judge Ruegg. I should like to speak with great reserve, therefore, and not to interfere, as it were, with an inquiry that may be being held. Moreover, it was dealt with last year by the Labour party. At the present time, however, the matter appears to be in a suspended condition; and the reason I mention it to-day is because I think that my hon. Friend, the House, the trade, and the public meeting had been misled by a circular issued by Miss Eva Gore Booth in the name of the Manchester and Salford Women's Trades and Labour Council. That circular is undoubtedy misleading. Page xviii. (the introduction) of the general report has a reference to the matter, and states that the Acts provide for the grant of latitude upon certain points where necessary, under special exceptions, and in the circumstances it was considered expedient to extend them to this small industry. I repeat that when we view cases like this many of us with an interest which is not the interest of this particular trade alone say that the interests of all trades must be weakened by every exception that is made. It is the accumulative weakening of the law, because every time you make an exception you dishearten inspection and the inspectors, and make the inspection much more difficult; and it is difficult for even employers in the trade to know what the law is.

Is it not stated in the circular that the florists will substitute foreign men for English women?

I have been long enough in this House, and interested long enough in these matters, to have heard this of almost every trade in the country. I have heard the cry repeatedly of wicked men driving women out of employment. In the meantime, what has happened? The employment of women increases in every one of those trades that we have been told they have been driven out of. The circular that I refer to calls attention to the withdrawal of the exemption order by the Home Secretary. It points out:—

"That the Order allowed women florists' assistants to work in the evening between 8 and 10 outside the workshop provided their names were entered on a register, and the extra time was made up to them the next day. The withdrawal of this exemption will make it impossible for them to keep on their assistants. They will have to send them away and employ men. Englishmen will not get this work, as they are not trained for it, but it will be given to foreigners, who are more dexterous at manipulating flowers. An enormous number of women will therefore be thrown out of work."

Where is this enormous number of women? I have made every possible inquiry, and I have only heard of two who have been led to believe that in certain hypothetical circumstances they might be thrown out of work—

By one establishment. A mass meeting was held to protest, but the women were totally unaware of how they could work under the present law. The florists' assistants are employed in workshop work— i.e., not mere shop work—and, without considering the large number of days on which they can have legal overtime, can work all night if only employed in the workshop either before or after dinner time. For example, if it was intended without the use of overtime to work them at night they are able to work from six to eleven in the morning, and then all night, or to work from twelve to five in the workshop, and from 5.30 all night. The matter is a wide one, as there is a tendency to listen to appeals for exceptional treatment. The policy extending the protection of the law can always be opposed in any trade. But Parliament intends that the trades should adapt themselves to the reasonable requirements of the law, and all exemptions from the law should be viewed with suspicion. In France the law has broken down. The object of the legislation is a uniform minimum standard.

My last subject is an old friend, and I shall deal with it very briefly, because there is a Departmental Committee sitting on it. I refer to lead poisoning in china and earthenware works. There are some most interesting figures which are given, both by the chief inspector and the medical inspector. At page 1 of the General Report are some paragraphs which are most encouraging to those of us who have long pressed this subject upon the attention of the House. The Committee may remember—those who are interested do—that we had "ups and downs." At one moment the Home Office suddenly went further in our direction than they were ultimately able to stand to. On page 10 will be found an overwhelming case for the Home Office policy of the past. Lead poisoning has fallen to the figure which can be secured by precaution apart from compulsory limitation of lead, or exclusion of lead from certain branches. There was sudden improvement when the new investigation was announced, as there was sudden improvement many years ago when the Home Office decision as to the 2 per cent. standard was announced. Manufacturers obviously have been trying to use less lead.

The importance of this restriction was proved in the general report by the chief inspector's figures showing the absence of poisoning in the potteries under special rules limiting the use of lead. Under the Leadless Rule, 17 potteries and parts of 12 others are "without any known instance of poisoning" since 1902. On page xi. we read that nine potteries have the 5 per cent. limit, and that there has been only one case since 1904. It may be hoped that the Committee will be at least unanimous on the lines thus indicated, even if the minority who desire to follow the phosphorus precedent, and exclude the dangerous material from some branches of the trade do not succeed in their contention. These are the findings of the Report, at all events, and, so far, they confirm the safety of acting upon either of those two views, and shows us the line which very probably the majority of the Committee may be expected to take. The Report is full of expressions as to the suddenness with which in certain branches of the trade, owing to their greater susceptibility, women fall victims to this disease, and the Report gives cases of some women who spent a very short time in some of our factories before they contracted lead poisoning. In conclusion, I have to thank the Committee for having listened to me dealing with so many technicalities and with this arid subject. I am glad to say that we feel that we have been doing some thing which has effected some good. The Committee will, I am sure, excuse me from having with far too little knowledge of all these technical subjects tried to put these matters before them, and in order to keep, the discussion in order I beg to move a reduction of £100.

Question put: "That a reduced sum of £140,700 be voted to His Majesty for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Secretary of State for the Home Department."

I think we must all agree, on having studied the Annual Report which has been issued, that the work with which the inspectors have to contend is very large and very varied, and also, I think, there can be no doubt that the factory legislation which we have is effective. Very considerable progress has been made, but, still, a great deal of further progress remains to be made. Last year we dealt to a very large extent with the question of accidents. I have some diffidence now in making any reference to that subject, because the Home Secretary was good enough to appoint a special inquiry into these matters, and I think that Committee is sitting at the present time and getting; very interesting evidence. I believe when that Committee of Inquiry makes its Report some very useful results will accrue. The right hon. Baronet who has just sat down made some references to the self-acting mule. I am sure it is difficult for any person not acquainted with the trade to speak on a subject of that description. I doubt very much whether many Members know what it is. It is a machine for the purpose of spinning cotton. It has a fixed part and a travelling part. The travelling part is made to travel out a certain number of inches, and by an automatic process reverses that procedure and comes back again. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean made some remarks with regard to the distance between the fixed part and the carriage of the machine. I think it would be difficult for an accident to, happen in the distance that has been, fixed. That is, I think, twelve inches from the carriage of one to the fixed part of another machine. But that exception applies only to new machines in new mills, and consequently there is still a large quantity of old machines to which it does not apply, and where the distance in some cases is not twelve inches, but or two, and that has caused a good many accidents. With regard to the question of children over 13, that has always been the case, that when they passed full time they were considered young persons.

That may be the case, but it was always understood if a child does not pass from school until it is fourteen years of age it is still a child. With regard to the class of accidents to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, I am not acquainted with all the circumstances, but regulations have been issued by the Home Office in regard to the duties of the minders in these particular circumstances, and so far as the Trade Union was concerned they have endeavoured to give instructions to the minders and ask them to try and carry out that duty to the full extent, and the result is that if the minders see a child going under the machinery he will be stopped. In some instances a child, as the hon. Baronet has said, fails to detect the signal, and then accidents occur, but, as I say, I will refrain from saying anything further with regard to accidents, because of the Committee which is inquiring into the matter. In regard to the general question, I find we have, in accordance with the promise made by the Home Secretary last year, an increase in the number of inspectors, and they are now 200. Whether that is sufficient number or not it is too early yet to decide. At any rate, these 200 inspectors have something like 260,000 factories and workshops which they have to look after, That is, 1,300 for each inspector, and it seems doubtful that this large number will be inspected in the way they ought to be.

At page 83 of the Report there is some reference made to the taking of samples of air in the weaving sheds, and I find there has been a falling-off in this respect during the past twelve months. Mr. Taylor in Blackburn took 712 samples of air in weaving sheds in 1907. I find that number has been reduced to 353 samples last year, and in non-humid sheds only 107 samples were taken last year as compared with 258 in 1907. In over 40 per cent. there were found to exist an excess of impurities, as measured by the amount of carbon dioxide in the air. I think it is a great mistake to reduce the taking of these samples. I think it would be better if, instead of having a reduction in this description of inspection, there was much greater activity displayed. Although there is a reduction in this respect there seems to be very little attention paid to this particular question in regard to spinning rooms, where the temperature is very high and the air in many instances very foul. I should like the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary to give instructions if he can that the air in the spinning mills should be tested more frequently than it has in past years. On page 84 I find that the readings of hygrometers in humid sheds are not satisfactory. It is a duty, as fixed by the Factory Act, that the employer should ascertain what the hygrometer registers with regard to the amount of humidity in comparison with temperature and I find that in some instances the inspector says these are not at all satisfactory. The inspector, Mr. Walmsley, of Manchester, says:— adults or men. This trade affords one of the instances of people who may be described as being too old at forty, and the remarkable thing is that now that investigations have been made into the matter it has been found that there is really no necessity why this state of things should have existed, and that there are appliances in the market by which the difficulty can be overcome. Experiments have been made in a considerable number of mills with success. I have seen the apparatus in operation at one mill, and it takes away the dust completely. At page 203 of the Report Dr. Collis says:—

I have only one other question to bring before the notice of the House, and that is time-cribbing. It is what may be termed a hardy annual, and I am pleased to say that things have somewhat improved in this respect. Nevertheless, the evil still exists, and during the past year no less than 477 cases have occurred. The Factory Act lays down that the workpeople must begin work at six o'clock, and stop at eight o'clock for breakfast; they start again at 8.30, and work on to 12.30, when there is another stop for dinner, and then they go on till 5.30. Time-cribbing means that some mills start at five minutes before six o'clock in the morning, two or three minutes before the breakfast half-hour is over, and two or three minutes before the dinner-hour is over, with the result that in the course of a week frequently as much as one hour is worked over the proper time. I believe I am correct in saying that this system exists in no trade except the cotton trade. It has grown up with the trade, and seems to have always been in existence. It still continues to be systematic, although the agitation to stop it has been going on for some time. When an employer is taken before the magistrates trivial excuses are made, and it is sometimes pleaded that the engineer has made a mistake or that the clock is wrong. It is no use making excuses of that description, because all those connected with the trade know that this time-cribbing is done systematically. I do not say that every firm does it, because a large number do not, and on the ground of fairness to those who do not do, it the practice ought to be stopped. This practice causes an unfair competition between one employer and another, and I ask the Home Secretary to press on and endeavour to make the penalties as great as possible. I am aware that in the Report a reference is made to the scouts. With the scouts we have no sympathy. They are not organised workers, and nothing would please us better than to see them punished. Is it not possible to charge them with obstructing the inspectors? It seems to me something of that sort ought to be done, and nobody would be more pleased than the trade unionists of Lancashire if these scouts could be tackled in that way and made to suffer for their actions. If time-cribbing was stopped it would have a beneficial effect upon the unemployed problem. People are working longer hours than they ought to be, and even if it is only a matter of a few minutes at intervals each day it means a considerable amount in the course of a year. If the practice was stopped, and every employer placed upon the same level, nobody could complain of unfair competition, and it would have the effect of providing more work for some of the unemployed. Again I press upon the Home Secretary to do all he can in regard to this question and that of the removal of dust, and if he does this he will earn the gratitude of all workers in Lancashire.

I think it is necessary to say something more with regard to the case of the florists, since the right hon. Baronet has stated the case for the enforcement of the Factory Act against them. The right hon. Baronet (Sir C. Dilke) seemed to think the House had been misled about this matter. I was not at all under the impression that a large number of women were affected; but, although the number is small, the injustice done is very considerable. That is my position in the matter, and that is why I have identified myself with this movement. It seems to me that by insisting upon a cast-iron centralisation a hardship is inflicted upon these people, and the House will be doing the same thing as hon. Members opposite are -doing or trying to do in regard to the Bakers Bill--they will be enforcing upon the whole country certain rules which may be suitable for London or their own particular localities, but which are not necessarily good for all the inhabitants of this island, which, however small, is capable of holding industries of a most diversified character. I am aware that the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean speaks with great weight on these subjects, and he thinks that this matter can be sufficiently dealt with as affecting the florists by the extra time which they are entitled to under the Act. Nevertheless those who are affected are not of that opinion. The hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Gill) has put forward the views of the cotton operatives with much force, and if their views are to be considered, why not the views of the florists? It is a mere accident that the florists happened to come under this Act at all. But for the exceedingly comprehensive character of the definition under the Act, nobody would think of calling a florist's shop a factory, and it is a most unfortunate thing that a legal decision has brought them under the Act.

The women engaged in this industry are not constantly employed, and frequently, at short notice, they have to provide flowers for a funeral in the country or for a feast in London. Consequently they have to work when the orders come in, and they carry on their employment under conditions perfectly acceptable to themselves. They do not complain of anything except being interfered with, and why should they not be allowed to carry on their industry in the manner they have hitherto done. My right hon. Friend rather made light of the argument that the enforcement of this Act in regard to florists must lead to the substitution of foreign men for English women. Personally, I prefer English women to foreign men, and I believe that feeling is common to all quarters of the House. My right hon. Friend says that does not really happen, but that is always said when such changes as these are introduced. We have never before had the inclusion of an industry like this, which, I admit, is a small one, under an Act which was meant to apply only to large factories and industries. The right hon. Baronet said he knew of men who could dress a dinner table as well as any women. That may be the case; but does anyone doubt that women are more capable of giving the right twist in the making-up of a "buttonhole" and of giving an artistic touch to the arrangement of flowers on any table than any men? Is it a proper occupation for Englishmen to be twisting flowers for "button-holes" and arranging them on the dinner-table? Personally I am not sorry that Englishmen do not excel in this industry in which English women are so skilful. At the meeting which, through the kindness of the Home Secretary, was held at the Foreign Office, and presided over by Sir Henry Conynghame, representatives of this trade were present and argued their case, and they were confronted by capable men and women, fully acquainted with technical details of factory legislation, yet they were able to meet and defeat those legal giants across the Table by putting forward the simple conditions under which they carried on their trade. They testified their great satisfaction with those conditions, and emphasised the dismay spread in their ranks by the enforcement of this Act. I cannot understand why hon. Gentleman opposite do not let these women alone. Hon. Members opposite get their own way in regard to all real factories and large industries, and nobody thinks of interfering with them, and I do not see why they cannot leave this particular ewe-lamb alone.

The right hon. Baronet said it was urged that the enforcement of the Act in regard to this trade was going to lead to its destruction. Our case is not that the trade will be destroyed, but that the effect of enforcing this Act will be that it will be carried on in future by immigrant aliens instead of by English women, and that is our case. When the right hon. Baronet said that the mass meeting may have been misled, is he not aware that mass meetings are nearly always misled. I think absolutely nothing of that. Let us have the arguments pro and con, taking no account of mass meetings because those who attend them are people who wish to be deceived, and they always are deceived. I need not say anything more upon this subject, because the right hon. Baronet put his case very temperately, and the Home Secretary is fully aware of all the circumstances, and an inquiry is at present under consideration. I did, however, feel that it was necessary that the case for the florists should be put to the House. One thing always leads to another, and I think there is a danger that the enforcement of the Factory Acts in this respect will lead to the substitution of foreign men for English women. With regard to the importation of undesirable aliens I wish to ask whether it is the case that in regard to the provincial courts in England only about 5 or 6 per cent. of them have exercised the privilege and duty they possess under the Aliens Act of sending up cases to the -Home Secretary, leaving the right hon. Gentleman to make the expulsion order. In about 17 per cent. of the cases the metropolitan magistrates have satisfactorily performed this duty, but in the case of the country courts the percentage is between 5 and 6 per cent. only. I am not making any reflection whatsoever on the action of the right hon. Gentleman, but I believe that when the magistrates apply for orders, they generally get them from the right hon. Gentleman. I want him to harden his heart and let these people go, and assure him that Egypt will be glad they have .departed. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman this: Will he consider whether the omission on the part of the county magistrates to apply for more orders is not due to the fact that they are hardly conscious of their powers. I have heard it argued here in this House, where the friends of undesirable aliens are collected together, that we must have regard to the traditional hospitality of this country, but when the guests abuse hospitality, they should be dealt with accordingly, and we must not forget that they are taking the bread out of the mouths of our own people, and, therefore, there should not be any shyness on the part of the provincial courts in applying for expulsion orders. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether it would not be desirable to issue some circular to the provincial courts pointing out what is their duty with regard to this matter. I see it is stated in the Estimates that it will cost £1,750 to carry out these expulsion orders. I wish the amount could be multiplied by ten, for, the more expulsion orders there are, the more opportunities there will be for giving employ- ment to our own people. Another question which I wish to refer to is the inspection of Welsh mines and quarries. I have no fault to find with the Home Office on the subject. The Home Secretary has done his utmost to get Welsh-speaking inspectors for Welsh mining districts. I have referred to this subject before, and I hope he will forgive me if I refer to the matter again. It is of the greatest importance that mining regulations should be printed in the Welsh language. In my own county in Wales the Welsh language is the only language spoken, and it is of great importance that these regulations should be translated into Welsh wherever possible, and that the officers appointed to carry out the regulations should also be Welsh. There is no use in having a clever man if he cannot talk to the people with whom he has to deal in their own language. The Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day in a momentary slip in his Budget speech said that he belonged to a little nation. He made a great mistake. He belongs to a great nation, which is small in numbers, and we must take care that it gets as much as possible of what it has to read put into its own language. Can the right hon. Gentleman let me know when the Lunacy Commissioners' Report will be issued? The authorities in Montgomeryshire are anxious to know when this report is likely to be received and when it must be acted upon. There is still another point on which I wish to speak. I may be out of order. If so, I shall very soon find it out. I am not raising this question in favour of the four boroughs out of the six which I represent. The right hon. Gentleman is the right person to approach on this subject. There are large communities in Wales. There is, for instance, Cardiff, and it has a Lord Mayor. We saw the other day that the City of Dublin had certain privileges at the Bar of this House, and the Lord Mayor and members of the corporation came here to exercise them. Why should not Cardiff and other towns in the Principality have similar privileges? I will bring my remarks to a close, hoping that the right hon. Gentleman will consider what I have said, and that he will add to the obligations which we in Wales are under to him, by duly considering each and every one of the points raised.

I welcome the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down as a new recruit to our ranks. I do not desire to discourage him, but we all feel here that when the hon. Member has gathered some more facts regarding the law and the social conditions of women as they are affected by the law he will be with us.

I am referring to his remarks with reference to the florists. I wish to ask the Home Secretary to try and arrange that the inquiry now on foot shall be conducted on a day and at hours convenient to all parties. If the inquiry is to be held on Saturday it is impossible for a considerable number of persons to attend. Of course, there may be some reason for holding it on such a day, and in that case I shall waive my objection. But I do ask the Home Office to see that inquiry will be conducted on a day and at such hours as are generally convenient. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question or two with regard to inspection. Is it not possible to minimise the time inspectors spend inside their offices? From time to time I have tried to get information on this subject from the right hon. Gentleman. I think it is necessary to trouble him still further and ask him if his Department cannot be induced to make some improvement in this matter in the interest of public convenience? It is a matter of common knowledge that during the first three months of the year the inspectors spend an enormous amount of time inside their offices making up statistical returns. I think it should be possible to change all that. If it were changed the inspecting capacity of the staffs would be greatly increased, and I suggest that the statistical returns should be dealt with by a supplementary staff of clerks. This is shown by the Report. At page 135, which deals with accidents in London, a diminution is attributed to the fact that an inspector has been put on that district. The diminution is quite remarkable. The accidents have also diminished from the point of view of seriousness. It does not matter how you examine the statistics. The report in pages 135 and 136 show absolutely the magnificent result of inspection in the prevention of accidents. I urge the point to which have referred upon the right hon. Gentleman all the more on account of this admirable Report. I should also like to supplement my remarks with a reference to page 139 in order to show what could be done by inspection, and the Re- port at page 139 shows the state of things. which exists when there is no inspection.

Attention called to the fact that there were not 40 Members present. House counted, and 40 Members being found present,

At page 139 of this Report a statement is made of the condition of laundries in Manchester alone, and the opening sentence is this:— strongly upon that occasion. Then we under the Factory Laws, and they cannot have the case of an employer who employs 200 or 300 women. This employer wanted to take full advantage of the order, and the Inspector says:—

The right hon. Gentleman remembers I have asked two or three questions upon typewriting done outside. If he will allow me, I would like to press that point upon him now in a way in which it would be impossible to do by question. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at certain newspapers he will see almost every day advertisements of typewriting agencies drawing the attention of business firms to the fact that they can duplicate letters—typewritten letters—in a better way than if the letters were printed. I have myself, within the last few days, received such a communication in my capacity as an official of this party. It is a letter from a typewriting agency drawing attention to the fact that there are so many printed circulars going about now that when the public receive them they only throw them into the waste-paper basket. It is suggested that if I am circulating to any considerable extent to any body of organisations or to any number of persons I would find it much more effective if I sent my letter to these typewriting agencies and got the copies duplicated by them. My point is this. If I do that work in my own office those who do the work do not come under the Factory Law until it is amended. If, however, I give that work out to be done in a printing office I give it out to a place which is under the Factory Law. If, however, I give it to an office next door where there is a staff of people who work upon it in precisely the same way as the printers would work upon it, then again the office is not under the Factory Law. I have thought the matter over very carefully in all its details, and I am bound to say that I have absolutely failed to see the difference between that kind of office and a printing establishment where this work of duplicating documents goes on. I suggest that these are not offices at all. They are workshops, and they are increasing in number. They have a manager and a staff to deal with the work which is taken in. It is not merely one copy that is made. I am quite willing to admit if it were a case of one copy the position would be rather different, but when it is a matter of duplicating 200, 400, 500, and even 1,000 copies, then I submit it is merely an ordinary workshop trading in the duplication of letters, MSS., and statements. I would urge the right hon. Gentleman, without his saying whether it does or does not come within the Factories and Workshops Act, to take a test case. It is far better that the facts should be stated before a Judge competent to decide, arid then let the Factory Department of the Home Office abide by the result. If the Judge decides, as was the case in regard to florists, that these places are workshops, very well. If he decides the other way, very well again. Up till within a short time ago the Home Office assumed that florists were outside the Factory Acts, and it is only by taking test cases that the proper application of the Act is discovered from time to time. I rather press that point upon the right hon. Gentleman. I would like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the way in which this Report has been got out this year. We have been placed in possession of it much earlier than usual. It is a much better arrangement for us to have it in May or June than towards the latter end of the Session, and I trust the example set this year in this respect will be continued in following years.

I desire to call attention to the administration by the Home Office of the Cruelty to Animals Act, 1879, under which vivisection experiments are supposed to be regulated, espe- cially with regard to the so-called inspection of them. There are two inspectors for Great Britain under the Act of 1876, Dr. G. D. Thane and Sir J. A. Russell, one receiving 500 guineas for his services and the other 350 guineas—in all £895. They do not give their whole time to the work of inspection. They have held these posts for many years. I have nothing to say against them personally, but I do want to ask what would this Committee expect to be the duty of an inspector under this Act? Would you not expect him to be as efficient as possible and to endeavour to find out if there are any transgressions of the law, and, should there be any, to detect and report them? But what do we find? We find from the evidence given before the Royal Commission, the Report of which has been so long delayed, that Sir James Russell, in regard to the instructions which he received when he was appointed inspector, says he was told by the senior inspector of that time "that he was not expected to act as a detective." This seems to be telling the man that he need not be efficient. It reminds one of Talleyrand's famous advice, "Surtout point de zêle." It is saying to him: "You are supposed to detect transgressions, but, nevertheless, you are not to act in the capacity of a detective—you are not to try and detect them." Then he was asked: "Have you ever been instructed to make surprise visits?" His answer was "Never." Thus he is not to detect and he is not to make surprise visits. The fact is, both gentlemen are provivisectionists. They just drop in with the view of having a little friendly chat with the experimentors, and that is all. We are told that in the year 1900 there were, under Certificate A, 8,954 experiments. This certificate allows these experiments to be conducted without aimsthetics. They are generally inoculations; they may produce terrible suffering and terrible disease, but one would hardly expect the inspector to be present at them. Under the licence which allows the experiment to be made under anæsthetics there were 1,118 experiments, while under Certificate B. which postpones the obligation to kill until the animal has emerged from the anæsthetic, and until the object of the experiment is secured, there were 586 experiments. Then, under Certificate C, which demonstrations to be given in vivisection for the instruction of students, the number was 181. I may say that the inspector for Ireland expressed a decided opinion, after many years' experience, that these were demoralising and ought not to be granted at all. Take these experiments under licences and under Certificates B and C: There were 1,885 of such experiments. altogether, and of these we find the Chief Inspector, Sir James Russell, saw how many? Two. In 1905, under licence in that year alone, there were 1,348 experiments; under Certificate B there were 1,013; under Certificate C, experiments for demonstration to students, there were 145, making a total of 2,506. I might just mention that the number of experiments under Certificate A—the experiments without anesthetics, and which we suppose were inoculations—had risen to the enormous figure of 35,429, but I do not count them in, but under Licence and Certificates B and C Sir James Russell saw 8, and Mr. Thane says he saw 15, or 23 in all out of 2,500, not 1 per cent. Therefore, I do say, under these circumstances, that what is called inspection under this Act is a farce, and I do not like to use strong language, but I was almost going to say a fraud, in this sense, that the public are deceived and hoodwinked. The public think that these experiments are always subject to inspection, but now we know perfectly well, from the evidence of the inspectors themselves, that this inspection, so-called, is really a positive farce, and the public have been lulled into a false sense of security, as really the vivisector does what he likes, sends in his own report, and is practically never inspected by these officers. There is one other matter I should like to bring to the attention of the Committee, but I wish to say that I am not bringing any charge whatever against the Home Secretary. Nothing of the kind, but I do want to say this, that I should like to be allowed to protest against the manner in which this Act has been administered by the officials of the Home Office for the last 30 years. That is the point. How is a licence granted for these vivisections? A man applies for a licence for vivisection. What does the Home Secretary do? The Home Secretary refers it to the Permanent officials; but what do they do? In every case every application is referred to the Association for the Advancement of Medicine by Research. That is stated definitely in the evidence. What is the Association for the Advancement of Medicine by Research? It is a private body for the promotion of vivisection, and I am entitled to say that, because in. this Blue Book at question 3,866 Professor Starling is asked: "Then the object of the whole membership is favourable to the promotion of vivisection? Certainly." It is a private body. Any single licensed vivisector can become a member of it on payment of 10s.

That is also in the evidence, and it is further in the evidence that there is no question ever asked with regard to the humanity or the humaneness of the man who applies for his licence. What is done is this. A man applies for a licence for vivisection. The application is referred to a body which is formed for the promotion and protection of vivisection, and as one of the committee wrote, and the letter has been made public, it was an association started "to bring effectual pressure to bear upon the officials." Does it inspire confidence on the part of the public that these licenses are granted on the fiat of, or are distributed, as it were, by this private body formed for the promotion of vivisection? I think we are entitled to protest, as against this association, which has no address, and of which the secretary has refused to give a list of its members. What it comes to is this, that the practice has been that the Home Secretary delegates the matter to the officials, and the officials delegate it to the association. There is only one other matter I should like to call attention to, and that is the annual return of experiments on living animals. For years and years this return was presented to Parliament in a form which purported to distinguish between experiments which gave pain and painless experiments, but for all these years, although this return contained a list of thousands and thousands of experiments, they never classed any under painful experiments, and it was supposed that all these experiments were painless experiments, or they purported so to be. I asked a question in March, 1906, with regard to certain experiments made upon dogs, and it appeared that the surgeon had made a large incision in each of these dogs, and he had cut out and extracted the gall bladder, scraped it with a knife, and introduced one or two gall stones, together with septic bacilli. The animals were sewn up, and were allowed to recover, and after many weeks they died or were killed, and there was a postmortem, and the result was given of putting these gall stones in. If a human being had his gall bladder cut open and gall stones put in, and walked about with them, I think he would find it rather a painful operation, but these experiments appeared in the Return as painless aseptic experiments. After this the Return came out in a different form, and there was no attempt to distinguish between painless and painful experiments, they never classed any under it, and the answer I got was that "the change was made because it was found impracticable to make a separation between painful and painless experiments. In some cases it was impossible for anyone—even the operator or observer—to discover whether pain is caused or not." I think that is a very significant admission. Here you have for all these years experiments classed as painless, and now we are told that the officials are not going to try and distinguish between the cases, and even the operator cannot tell whether they are painless or not. What an admission that is, that they cannot even say whether they are painless or not! Therefore I say that the change is hardly a change for the better, and at any rate the reason given, I venture to submit, is a very significant one. In calling attention to this Act of 1376 I may point out that it was one for the prevention of cruelty to animals. The Act was passed and came into existence because of the Report of a Commission on which Professor Huxley sat in 1876. They found that there was cruelty, and they said— do not want to detain the Committee further on this matter, but I do think that the public conscience is aroused and is on the alert. I should not be in order in advocating any legislation for the future, but I do venture to hope that in the future the right hon. Gentleman may find it possible to administer this Act a little more for the protection of the animals, as the Act requires, and a little less for the protection of the vivisectors.

I desire to say a few words as to the factory portion of the Debate which has taken place. First of all, I should like to express, as another speaker as already done, satisfaction that it has been found possible at last to present the Factory Inspectors' Report at an earlier period than usual. Last year we were discussing the Home Office Vote on the last day that it was possible to do so, and it was felt that the postponement of this Vote until such a late period of the Session was a very unfortunate matter. Of course, I am well aware of the difficulties which have existed in the way of the preparation of the Report at an earlier date, and I, like my right hon. Friend opposite and other Home Secretaries, have often been asked to facilitate this matter. I congratulate him on having been able to carry out that suggestion, and to carry it out in the present year, so that the Report of the factory inspector was in our hands early in June. I also express my thanks to the very able head of the Factory Department, Dr. Whitelegge, for the no doubt harder work he has had to do this year in consequence of this earlier tabulation of the statistics and the earlier preparation of the Report. There is one question I should like to ask. On the first page of the Report Dr. Whitelegge says:— as far as possible of all the sub-Departments of the Head Department under the same roof as the Department itself.

I should like to ask a question with regard to the lucifer match industry. The Act comes into force in 1910, and I would ask whether the other countries which formerly did not see their way to come into line with us in this matter have already been enabled to do so? I think at the time of the second conference, when the Under-Secretary was able to carry into effect the views with which he went to the conference, Japan, at all events, was not prepared to come into the conference. I am anxious for reasons of my own to know whether anything further has been done in that direction, and whether Japan has now consented to come in.

I have another question to ask with regard to the administration of the Factory Acts in respect of laundries, especially those attached to conventual houses. The managers of those institutions were very averse to inspection, and that delayed it for a great many years. Fortunately the Act of 1907 was carried, and I believe they have found by experience that, most of their fears were groundless, and that the factory inspector is not the unreasonably cruel man they evidently thought he was. I am glad to see that Dr. Whitelegge mentions one fact which I know from my own experience is a reason why many of them dread coming under the Act and being inspected. He says:—

The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Greenwood) has brought into the discussion the question of the administration of the Home Office in respect to the Acts regulating cruelty to animals. I am rather sorry he has thought it necessary to do so at present, when a Royal Commission is engaged in inquiring into the matter, and will shortly publish its Report.

The right hon. Gentleman will recollect—he was in the House at the time—that the Statute was passed in 1876 in reference to this, and that from that day to this there has not been one prosecution or one punishment for this dastardly offence.

Of course, we may have fresh legislation. I was not asking for that. I am only discussing the administration of the Act in the past. I do not see how the Report of the Commission can affect administration in the past.

We shall no doubt hear from the Home Secretary a defence of his Department. I have given it on former occasions, and I am not at all shaken in my belief in the humaneness of the administration by anything which the hon. Gentleman opposite has said. It is all very well for the hon. Member (Mr. Swift MacNeill) to groan, but I am afraid it will not alter my inherent views of the matter. I am entirely in favour of the administration of the Act with the greatest humanity, but at the same time I am not prepared to sit silent when I hear officers who have carried out that Act to my knowledge with great humanity and care held up to opprobrium. The Act has, in my opinion, been administered, in so far as these operations go, with great humanity. The hon. Member for Peterborough forgot to tell the House that very careful investigation is made into the character of those who have licences to carry out experiments on living animals by medical authorities. First of all, no operation can be carried out except in isolated places, and no experimenter can have a licence unless he is recommended by certain medical authorities, including the President of the College of Physicians or the President of the College of Surgeons. I think therefore that he is hardly right in saying that care is not taken in the question of selecting those who carry out these operations. The hon. Member for Montgomery Burghs (Mr. Rees) asked a question in regard to the administration of the Aliens Act. I wish to say a few words on that subject to-day for two reasons. First of all, owing to the necessity of bringing the last Debate to a conclusion, I practically was unable to reply to certain points in the right hon. Gentleman's speech; and, secondly, we have within the last few days received an extremely able report from Mr. Haldane Porter, who so ably presides over that Department of the Home Office. Anyone who has read his report must admit that the Act has in a very great measure succeeded, and even exceeded in some ways the amount of success which the promoters of the Act hoped for. If you take the question as to transmigrants, the statistics are extremely satisfactory. To begin with, 61,680 have come to this country in place of 110,700 in 1907. That decrease is probably caused by the want of employment in America and not the same number of emigrants crossing, but it was held when the Act was passing that there was great danger of the transmigrant coming to this country and going no further, but becoming part of the alien population of this country. But it appears that all of the 61,000 are known, and proved, to have gone to their destination except 371, and out of the whole number—369—who were rejected at foreign ports and brought hack to this country, 312 returned to the Continent, eight were known to have died in this country, 33 had not left, and only 18 were unaccounted for. That, I think, shows that there is an amount of care for which we must pay our compliments to these hard-working officials, and it shows a great desire on the part of the Department to know exactly what is the history of his transmigrant population.

May I turn to the expulsion clauses? They, I think, were not matter of great controversy between the two sides of the House. Both sides were anxious that the criminal alien should be deported, and I know charges have been made recently. The hon. Member for Montgomery Burghs said the right hon. Gentleman was somewhat slack in administering that portion of the Act. I personally do not think so. I think the right hon. Gentleman has very fairly and efficiently administered that portion of the Act. It is very hard yet to tell the true case by statistics. Mr. Haldane Porter, in his report last year, pointed out that the statistics of convicted prisoners would in the long run afford a test, and that they already showed that the liability to expulsion was exercising considerable influence on the criminal alien. This year he repeats very much the same story. He says:— 12 was not an emigrant ship under the Act, and the right hon. Gentleman raised that number to 20. He thereby enabled a large number of those, as I think, unsatisfactory and unnecessary aliens to come into this country. Then, again, he altered the onus of proof with regard to the statement made by those who come to this country and are supposed to be flying from religious or political persecution. I think that in these two ways he made a considerable hole in the net with which we had intended to stop these aliens coming into this country. The right hon. Gentleman said in the Debate in the early part of the Session:— hon. Gentleman will remember that the shipping companies are required to give bonds that they will not bring undesirable immigrants to our shores except for the purpose of transit. I understand from the Report that that system has been working very well. It certainly is a very distinct gain, because under that system we go very much further, I think, than the Act of 1905 took us, because before the Act there was nothing to prevent aliens who came as transmigrants remaining in this country. The companies now have to give returns of these people, and they can be called upon to remove them from this country. In three years we have got rid of 384 aliens of an extremely objectionable character whom we could not possibly have touched otherwise.

May I say how satisfied I was that the right hon. Gentleman was to-day able to give the answer he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for the Holborn Division? My hon. Friend has been working for some years in the endeavour to obtain a weekly day of rest for the police, and the right hon. Gentleman has met his wishes, and the wishes of those who have been working with him. I unfortunately was not in the House when he gave the answer, and perhaps he will tell me again when he thinks it will be possible to recruit the 1,400 additional men who will be required, and when he thinks this boon to the police will come into operation. I wish to know also, so far as he can estimate, what the additional cost will come to. Another question which I wish to ask arises out of the Report which was presented last year by the Royal Commission on the character and behaviour of the Metropolitan Police. I think hon. Members on both sides of the House will agree that that was an extremely satisfactory report. It showed us that many of the charges lately made against the police force of the Metropolis Lad no foundation, and that we had in the Metropolitan area a most efficient police force. The Commission made many recommendations, and one was that an officer duly qualified by knowledge of the law and experience in legal proceedings, acting under the direct superintendence of the Commissioner, should be appointed for the purpose of dealing with complaints against the police by private persons, and conducting inquiries. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has been able to give due consideration to that recommendation, and whether he proposes give effect to it, and, further, whether he has settled with the Chief Commis- sioner of Police the position of such an officer in the police force?

With regard to the administration of the Children Act, which the right hon. Gentleman conducted through this House, I wish to ask whether the Home Office has been-able to carry out the proposal in respect to Children's Police Courts, especially in the provinces? In London we have always had, or at all events we have had for a great many years past, a system under which charges against children were heard in a separate room, and at a separate time, and when the children were not allowed to be contaminated by the presence of well-known criminals, and to listen to the proceedings in other cases. I have no doubt that in London the old system of hearing cases in which children are involved in a separate room goes on, even if the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to carry out the very much larger proposals which the Under-Secretary told us were intended to he carried out. But I want to know what is being done in the provinces, and, further, whether the cost of such courts in the provinces are going to be an Imperial charge, or whether they are going to fall upon the local rates. This is all that I have to urge upon this particular Vote, though I think there are some criticisms which I shall find it my duty to make when we come, if we do, to the Prisons' Vote.

I would wish to direct the attention of the Committee to the question of accidents, not in reference to factories, and also the question of sufferers, though not with relation to vivisection. With regard to the latter question, as a member of the Royal Commission, my lips at the present time are sealed; but may I say, in view of what has been stated in Debate, that the Royal Commission is now considering the very voluminous evidence which it has taken, and is arranging to issue a voluminous Report. The question to which I wish to refer is that of the occurrence of accidents in streets and public places within the Metropolitan area which are dealt with at the present time by the Metropolitan Police. That force is under the Home Secretary, and is not a municipal force. The right hon. Gentleman appointed a Departmental Committee to go into the question in December, 1906. The reference was to inquire into the provision made for dealing with cases of accidents and sudden illness occurring in streets and public places in the Metropolis, and to report what improvements in ambulance provision were desirable or necessary, and how they could best be effected with due regard to efficiency and economy. The Report was published in March this year, and in April I asked the right hon. Gentleman if he would state what action he and his Department proposed to take in consequence of the recommendations in that Report. His reply was that he hoped that he could deal with some of the points by administrative action, but that he was afraid that he could not deal in the present Session with the larger recommendations that might involve legislation. The Committee found the provision for dealing with street accidents and cases of sudden illness in public places in London in a very unsatisfactory condition in comparison with the provision made by large provincial towns, some of which, like Manchester and Liverpool, our Committee visited. In these places we found much more adequate provision for dealing with cases of accidents and illness occurring in streets than is the case in the Metropolis, outside the City, at the present time; and the Committee unanimously reported that the present system was gravely defective, and that there was much preventible injury and suffering by reason of the transport by unsuitable means of persons injured or taken ill in the streets and other places, owing to the use which is made of ordinary vehicles, such as cabs, even in serious cases, which require the transport of patients by the best possible means. They found that no less than 60 per cent. of the cases arriving in our hospitals otherwise than on their own legs are conveyed by other means than a litter or an ambulance; four-wheeled cabs or hansom cabs being largely used, even in cases of injury to the trunk or to the lower extremities. It thus appears that owing to the present system of transport adopted in London much preventible suffering arises, and sometimes additional injury is occasioned to the sufferer by the mode of conveyance employed. When the London County Council in 1906 sought powers for dealing with this question a memorandum was put in by the Home Office which rather indicated that it might be dealt with by the police as an ordinary matter of administration and organisation. Largely on account of that memorandum those clauses of the Bill were thrown out in another place. Then this Departmental Committee was appointed. I think we have a right to ask what action the Home Secretary and his Department are going to take now on this question. The Committee reported against the police becoming the ambulance authority for London. Under the circumstances the public would be anxious to know what action the Home Secretary proposes to take, and whether it is by organising the-police into an ambulance department or by allowing some other body to take up the work. The City of London, where they have their own police, largely prompted by the evidence, I think, in an inquiry conducted by the London County Council some years ago, have inaugurated the most efficient ambulance system in the country, and by using telephone calls and an electrical motor ambulance it is now possible within nine minutes of the receipt of the call to have the patient in Saint Bartholomew's Hospital. That, compared with the methods in use throughout the county of London, merely emphasises the necessity for bringing the county of London up to the level either of the City or of some of the provincial towns which, through the police or in connection with the Fire Brigade, have arranged an efficient system for dealing with those persons who meet with injuries. in the streets. During the last three years the street accidents in London have increased by no less than 62 per cent. That shows the amount of preventible suffering which at present takes place owing to the lack of an efficient ambulance service, and I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will make some pronouncement on the subject.

I will try to answer the numerous points which have been submitted to me, though several of them have no near relation to each other. I will deal first with the last point, which has been raised by the hon. Member for West St. Pancras (Sir William Collins). I entirely agree that the organisation of ambulance work in the London district is a matter of very great importance, and even of emergency. I recognise that my right hon. Friend has stated what is the case. As regards the main point in relation to the Committee, there was a divergence of opinion. The Chairman and one of his colleagues proposed to put the duty on the Asylums Board. My hon. Friend behind me (Sir William Collins) proposed to put it on the London County Council, and I may say that he brought in a Bill to give effect to his views, and to make the London County Council the authority. I am not able to forecast legislation on this occasion, but I recognise the importance of the subject, and the necessity of doing anything we can fairly be asked to do to hasten the consideration of the matter. We should be glad to see the Bill brought in by my hon. Friend sent to a Grand Committee, which would be in a condition to consider the main point—what authority should undertake the work and come to a decision on the facts? I much regret that, for reasons which are rather obvious, it is impossible for the Government to make any promise of legislation, so far as we are concerned, on this subject this Session. I pass now to the observations of my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Akers-Douglas). As regards the juvenile courts, I may say that there are special difficulties to meet with in London. My hon. Friend beside me (Mr. Herbert Samuel), the father of the Bill, tells me he thinks the cost is a very trifling amount, and, therefore, it will fall in the usual way; but if it should happen that there is some development not contemplated in the Act, then it will be open to us to consider any point with regard to it. My hon. Friend asked me whether we were going to carry out the proposals of the Royal Commission on the Police. Personally I hoped before now to be able to give effect to them, but during the last six weeks I have not been able to give full attention to work; and further, the Police Commissioner and the Home Office have been, during the last week or so, rather closely engaged in connection with the inquiries necessitated by the one day's rest in seven question. But it is under our immediate consideration, and I hope, in a very short time, to be able to make an announcement upon it. Of course, we are all agreed upon the principle of the recommendations. My hon. Friend asked me with regard to the recommendation of one day's rest in seven how long it will take to give effect to it. It is very difficult to say exactly. The Commissioner hopes that it will not take more than four years, but my hon. Friend knows that already there is a considerable amount of recruiting which has .to be done to replace vacancies in the force, and to provide for the necessary augmentation to keep up with the growth of London. This new proposal will necessitate the recruiting of 1,400 to 1,500 more men, and it is most undesirable either to lower the standard of recruits for the force, or to put raw men on duty on the streets of London. Therefore the time that it will take fully to give effect to the recommendations of the Commis- sion cannot be forecasted accurately. It must depend to a very large extent upon. the recruiting conditions in the immediate future. With regard to the cost, it is estimated that so far as the metropolis is concerned the Metropolitan Police Fund will have to bear an additional charge of £150,000 per annum, without counting the contingent cost of pensions.

My right hon. Friend referred to the question of aliens. When this subject was under discussion on the Address, I made a full statement on the whole thing. I regret to say that I did not leave sufficient time for my hon. Friend opposite to make his reply, and he has now supplemented what he would have said then; and I have no observations to make now, except as to the fairness of his observations and to say that personally, as it is a matter of opinion, I do not believe that there is any material difference between the numbers 20 and 12. I think that there would be a considerable difference between the numbers 20 and say 3, or something small like that, but I do not think that the alteration from the number 12 to 20 has had much appreciable effect upon the landing of aliens. With regard to the second part of the Act, my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomery Boroughs (Mr. Rees) drew attention to the fact that full attention has not been given to that part by the provincial courts. It is impossible for me to act unless I get a recommendation for expulsion. Until there is a recommendation the Home Secretary cannot do anything. I have, however, issued a circular to all the criminal courts, enclosing a copy of the inspector's Report and calling attention to those provisions of the Act which I think most valuable. That circular has already been productive of very great good, and I think in the future it will do still more good.

My hon. Friend drew attention to the Factory Act of 1907, which is generally known as the Laundries Act, and he said that the fears of a great many people with regard to that Act had proved to be groundless. Any hon. Member who reads the Report of the Factory Inspector will see that the Act has been a real success. There was a rather formidable opposition, and I think the course which I took—though I agree that it was open to some objection—was the only one by which I could get the Bill through. I am glad that we stuck to our guns and passed the Bill into law, seeing that it has been produc- tive of very great good. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Akers-Douglas) has been good enough to refer to the date of issue of the Report. Owing to the efforts of the Department we have been enabled to produce the Report two months earlier than the usual date, and I think we ought to make an acknowledgment to the Factory Department of their energy and of the success with which they have met the wishes expressed in this House and carried out the change. One point to which my hon. Friend (Mr. Greenwood) referred had relation to vivisection. I am not going into that question, but there are one or two remarks that fell from my hon. Friend that I do not think he meant to be taken in any offensive or personal sense.

I disclaim any such thing. It was certainly not my intention. I was simply referring to the system.

I am quite sure my hon. Friend did not intend to do so, and I acquit him altogether of saying anything offensive to anybody. I wanted the matter cleared up. He stated that when the inspectors went to the laboratories they would have a friendly chat with the operators, and do nothing more. That does convey a very serious charge, but I do not suggest for one moment that it was intended.

I did not use a word in order to convey any offensive suggestion; I was speaking of the system.

There is some danger in these discussions of confusing the principle of vivisection and the method of carrying out the law. Some may think vivisection is inhuman, and some may think it necessary in the interests of humanity. We have got the Act, and it is of no use bandying charges of inhumanity against those who are appointed to administer that Act. I can quite understand that my hon. Friend did not intend to say anything which might be construed as offensive to anybody, but it is my duty, in case of misapprehension, to stand up for professional men who are serving the Department and serving their country according to their own opinion and consciences, and who are faithfully discharging the duties entrusted to them. It is quite true that their whole time is not given to the work, but they are not paid for their whole time. You must have men who are competent for the work, and unless you are prepared to pay a very high salary you will never get officials at the present salaries who will be able to give their whole time to the work which is being done. I pass from that to the subject raised by my right hon. Friend (Sir C. Dilke), the main point of whose observations had reference to the protection of child life in the factories. All who listened to him are in agreement with him on the subject. The question before us is whether the Acts are preventive. I draw no distinction between the child technically so-called or the older child of 13 to 14 years of age, who, under the Act, may be technically a "young person." I am speaking generally of children of tender years. So far as concerns the cases to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, it is quite admitted that they were accidental. The poor children did what was illegal and prohibited under the Factory Acts, and unfortunately they were killed by machinery in motion. My right hon. Friend asked why we did not bring in The Employment of Children Act, 1903. I do not think we should have advanced matters if we had done that. Under the existing Factory Acts the action of these children was prohibited. We might have proceeded under the Employment of Children Act, but if there was no gross carelessness we should not have been any better off by doing so.

I quite agree. If we had proceeded under the Employment of Children Act the question would have been whether or not the employment was in fact dangerous.

"Likely to be injurious to life or limb, and health," etc. The question at once arises, would the courts say that he must not follow the vocation of a little piecer? That was not contemplated.

There are the extreme cases where children are put at different kinds of machines at a very early age.

The Employment of Children Act, strictly speaking, is not a Factory Act, and in this particular case to which the right hon. Gentleman referred I do not think it could have been used, because it was a pure accident to the children, as the court found.

I mentioned four cases to-day. The inquest case was not one of the two with which the right hon. Gentleman is dealing.

In two of the cases the Court found that the minders were not to blame. I agree, and hon. Members will no doubt say that if two children of 13 or 14 years of age within a week or two are killed by this same class of machine in the same class of circumstances, it is a matter which should be looked into with a view to some further precautions being taken. That is what we are doing now. Of course the question arises whether they should be prohibited from cleaning the machinery at all. In this case to which reference has been made, the child thought the machine was at rest and went into it. I have no doubt my hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Gill), with his practical knowledge, will be able to give us his opinion on the subject, and I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald) will also take notice of these cases to which attention has been called and bring them under the purview of his Committee, in order that we may get the advice of that body upon them. Meanwhile I will make inquiries to see what can be done. That is what we are already doing. My right hon. Friend dealt with some other matters, one of which—the Florists Order—is not a question of great importance except in principle. It only affects London and Birmingham.

I am speaking of the area, but it is not a large question so far as the trade is concerned. The case on each side has already been stated, and Judge Ruegg has been asked to inquire into it and report. The hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Gill) dealt with a number of points. He referred to inspection and to the recent increase in the number of inspectors. That is a matter which has occupied my mind. I confess it does seem rather absurd, where it is the joint interest of employer and employed to put their heads together to give reasonable effect to the law of the land, that they should not do so, but wait until a paid inspector comes along to see that they do it. A suggestion was made not long ago in this House that in connection with mines an inspector should be appointed for every 10,000 men working. But if 10,000, why not 5,000, or why not an inspector for every mine? It does seem to me rather absurd that sensible men and trained men—men who know all the conditions under which work in the mines or factories is performed—cannot by organisation arrange for the enforcement and the carrying out of the law. The law exists for the benefit of employer and employed. It has been proved over and ever again that the enactments of legislation on behalf of workmen tend really to the advantage of the employers. Taking one thing with another, morally as well as economically, it is to the benefit of all concerned that the inspection should be adequate and effective in every place where industrial work is carried on. I shall be only too glad if I can initiate in any way some plan which will meet the difficulties of the case and prevent us planting an inspector everywhere. Surely, when ordinary law-abiding people have to obey the law as citizens the people concerned in this matter should obey the law in these particular instances in which they are responsible.

The hon. Member for Bolton also spoke about card stripping and grinding. I have to express my acknowledgments to him for having drawn our attention to this matter. We are necessarily dependent on the workmen or those who represent them for bringing to our notice the special needs of particular industries. I received a deputation on this subject, and, as was stated by him, the result of inquiry was to show that there was great mischief from this process. I have had a report from one of our medical inspectors, who stated that out of 131 persons he found no fewer than 98 were suffering from the effects.

I can assure the hon. Member that we shall do our best to hasten things forward and report. We have issued a circular-letter to employers calling their attention to the necessity for action and to the fact that there are suitable devices for meeting the difficulty. He referred also to time-cribbing. I consider this class of offence is dishonest. It means stealing the time of some other person, and it is as bad an offence as stealing money or anything else. It is grossly unfair to the right-minded employers who do not go in for time-cribbing, and who are at a trade disadvantage by their dishonourable rivals doing so. I speak strongly about this, and feel strongly about it. We instituted 468 prosecutions for time-cribbing, securing convictions in almost all cases, and getting penalties inflicted which totalled £561 8s. 6d. The hon. Member suggested we should prosecute scouts in these cases. Prosecution of scouts has been tried in the case of motor scouts, but there it broke down, and I am afraid if we took action the result would be the same. Still, we shall do what we can, and I am glad to say that the evil has been a good deal checked on account of the operations under the Factory Act.

The hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald) raised a question with regard to the inspectors. I have no reason to think that there is any shirking on the part of our staff in inspecting factories. I have no reason to think that our staff is not high-minded and energetic in the discharge of the duties allotted to them. They have an immense amount of work to do, and, in addition to the outside work of inspection, the work in the Office is enormous. My hon. Friend suggests some of this work might be done by other people. The inspectors have clerks in their local offices. I doubt if much improvement can be effected in this regard, but my hon. Friend may be able to get information to form a judgment on in the course of the investigations of the Committee. My attention has been called to the question of the separation of departments in laundries. The effect of the particular Order referred to has been specifically alluded to, and the general result of the working of the Act, in the opinion of inspectors, both men and women, is distinctly favourable and satisfactory to me. I hope and believe that the inconvenience which has arisen in certain cases because of that Order will be overcome. I shall certainly keep a sharp eye on the joint, because, being responsible for that Order, I am extremely anxious that the prophecies of my hon. Friend should be falsified. Another question raised was that of typewriting and the substitution in some degree of typewriting for printing, with the result that there are what might be held to be workshops under the Act where inspection does not apply at the present time. I quite agree that the question will have to be watched. But even supposing we brought a test case and won it, you must consider how you would deal with the difficult questions which would arise. These machines are used universally by railway, insurance, and all kinds of companies, and by private individuals, and the question will arise hew far the places where the machines are used can, or ought to be, inspected. I am not pronouncing any specific view. The question is one of those new developments which grow up. We shall watch the matter carefully, and, if necessary, take proceedings, or deal with the question when we come to the amendment of the Factory Acts, which cannot be postponed much longer, whatever Government is in office.

Do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to consider the propriety of bringing under the Factory Acts offices in which typewriters are used?

I am pointing out the difficulties of attempting to deal with the case put forward by the hon. Member for Leicester. We should examine the subject very closely before committing ourselves to action. I agree that there is a case for examination, but I understand that we have no power to deal with the particular question as the hon. Member suggested, by Order. The remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomery Burghs (Mr. Rees) with regard to Welsh-speaking inspectors were entirely laudatory. The department has always recognised the necessity of having Welsh-speaking inspectors in connection with factories and mines in Wales, and I am glad to have received the approval of my hon. Friend. All the district inspectors in Wales speak Welsh. As regards the Lunacy Commission, I am afraid I have nothing very satisfactory to say. Various questions arise on which there are unfortunately serious differences of opinion, which would make legislation extremely difficult. It is a matter in regard to which legislation is required, but I cannot give any undertaking at the present moment in regard to its introduction.

We are all glad to see the right hon. Gentleman completely restored to health and strength; the speech he has just delivered, covering so wide a field, proves that he is physically and intellectually up to the mark. The matter I wish to bring before the Committee is the advice the right hon. Gentleman has tendered to the Crown in regard to the exercise of the prerogative of mercy. I make no personal attack, or anything approaching one, upon the right hon. Gentleman. So far as kindness of heart and humanity go, I believe he yields to no one in the House. It is a great drawback to any Home Secretary that he should not have had the advantage of a legal training. I believe that every Home Secretary should have had a legal training in order to appreciate the points of law and jurisprudence which inevitably arise in the course of his duties. I am, in all respects, whatever be the heinousness of the crime, against the infliction of the lash; and my complaint against the right hon. Gentleman is that in many cases where the lash has been the subject of judicial sentences he has not advised the exercise of the prerogative of mercy for its remission. I say that, situated as the right hon. Gentleman is, whatever be the advice of officials, it is his essential and absolute duty in every such case to advise the remission of the sentence. That may appear to be a strong statement, but I will tell the Committee why I make it. On July 31st, 1885, Lord Herschell, afterwards Lord Chancellor in Mr. Gladstone's Administration, stated in this House—in reference to the infliction of the lash—that he had procured a report dealing with offences liable to the lash for two years before the Garrotting Act, and for two years afterwards, from which it appeared that wherever the punishment of the lash was inflicted the offences increased, and that wherever that punishment was omitted and a severe sentence of imprisonment inflicted those crimes of violence decreased. Further, the present Prime Minister, who, when Home Secretary, had before him all the serious cases in which sentences of flogging were imposed, and had to consider whether or not they should be carried out, told the House in March, 1900—and, in doing so, said he expressed the opinion also of Sir William Harcourt—that the punishment of the lash only demoralised the victim, and did no good whatever to the community; that it reduced the victim to something less than a man, and struck out from him any spark or reformation there might be. Another argument that especially applied to the exercise of the prerogative of mercy was that the punishment of the lash, as inflicted under judicial sentences, is an uncertain punishment, depending on the temper and predisposition of the judge. There are judges upon the bench who would be dismissed rather than order the infliction of a single stroke of the lash.

Let us see what the right hon. Gentleman himself has done. I cannot speak in reference to floggings on the authority of the Prisons Committee on convicted prisoners. That must come on the Prisons Vote. But let us see how the right hon. Gentleman has acted with regard to purely judicial floggings. When Mr. Justice Lawrence and another judge went to Cardiff, where there had been an epidemic of crimes with violence, and 16 prisoners were sentenced to be flogged, implored the right hon. Gentleman to advise the exercise of the prerogative, but he declined, and he declined also to consider the evidence on which the sentences of flogging were passed, although Sir Matthew White Ridley stated in this House that he had never allowed a flogging case to go by without considering carefully whether or not the sentence should be carried out. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the prisoners could appeal, but they could do nothing of the kind, because the Appeal Act had not then come into operation. That, however, is ancient history, and I pass from it. It shows how things are. But at the Glamorganshire Assizes last year Mr. Justice Coleridge, before whom not 16, but 18, cases of robbery with violence came, poured ridicule upon the barbarity of the punishment of flogging. He said that he did not think that it in the slightest degree produced any amelioration in the prisoner or safety to the community. [An HON. MEMBER here made a remark.] Yes, my hon. Friend says that if Lord Coleridge had been knocked down and robbed he might have had a different opinion. That is not the way a jurist should consider the matter. A barbarous deed must not be punished from a barbarous standpoint, or the moral culpability may be almost equal in the one case to the other! So much for this flogging matter. However, I forgot for the moment that in more recent times an unfortunate man was in October sentenced—a savage sentence it was—at the quarter sessions at Northallerton to a period of imprisonment and two floggings. It is interesting to think that this system of double flogging, which the late Lord Ridley put an absolute stop to, has come into recrudescence in the time of my right hon. Friend. The right hon. Gentleman did decree that one of the floggings should not be inflicted, but I desire to say this, that I regard the lash as inhuman and barbarous. Not only so, but it is distasteful business to those who have to inflict it. This punishment ought not to be permitted by the Home Secretary, who is the authority in this matter in a democratic House of Commons. The House of Commons in this matter is anxious, I believe, to preserve its dignity and manhood, as well as that of the country.

There is another point which is more serious, and upon which I shall speak with very great reserve indeed. It is a serious charge to make against the right hon. Gentleman, but I think more consideration should have been given in two recent painful cases which involved capital punishment. I do not, of course, intend in the slightest degree to impute to the right hon. Gentleman any lack of sympathy with the terrible sufferings, nor do I think he is lacking in tender compassion, but in these two cases, both horrible trials, the prerogative of mercy should have been exercised. The one case is that known as the Shaftesbury-avenue murder, and the prisoner was a man called Murray or Macdonald. When the case came before the court it would seem that this man apparently had no object of robbery, no vindictive motive, hut that the case was one of pure malignity. It was stated that the prisoner was subject to epileptic fits, and was on that border stage where, without being absolutely irresponsible, and not knowing the difference between right or wrong, he was one of those more for detention as a degenerate than for capital punishment. He was sentenced. He appealed, and the judges of the Appeal Court—this is the remarkable thing—said that the case was more one for the consideration of the Home Office, and was one for the consideration of the exercise of the prerogative. What was the Home Secretary's plan? He thought that the man should be hanged. I hate capital punishment and am opposed to it. I would not for anything, even as a minister of the law, sentence a man to death, so that my prepossessions in reference to this matter may be taken into account in my argument.

I come now to the other case—the case of those two men guilty of the hateful crime known as the Whitechapel murder. There was a strong case on account of the youth of one of the men, who did not actually imbrue his hands in blood, that at least his life should be spared. Again that case came before the Court of Appeal. Again the Court of Appeal said: "This is not a mere matter for legal consideration; we have not to deal with a case like this, it must come before the Home Office." There was a double execution. I think it was very wrong. Having stated that I am opposed to capital punishment, I ask the right hon. Gentleman, How can he refuse to hang a man like Rayner, who is guilty of a deliberate murder, and let these men go to their death? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not—he is not, I think, likely to do so—in answering assume a superior air, and say: "Oh, the grounds on which the prerogative of the Crown is exercised must not be discussed in this House; they are too high and transcendental for that; it is not the practice." I tell him it is the practice, and the Crown's prerogative of mercy can be discussed in the House of Commons. In other times, when the prerogative of mercy was absolutely in the hands of the Crown, it might have been an improper thing to discuss it. But not now, and the prerogative of mercy and its exercise, or want of exercise, has been constantly discussed on three recent occasions—on the third at cinisiderable length. I pass from that to a fresh subject. I want to take the right hon. Gentleman, so far as I can in a Parliamentary manner, to task for the matter in which I confess I feel, not he, but his advisers, whom I cannot preach at, are gravely responible. I ask what has happened to provoke the perversion of the administration of the law? This evasion the right hon. Gentleman has sanctioned when he could have prevented it. I refer to the contrivance by which the police magistrates, and especially Mr. George Fordham, evade the Juvenile Offenders Act of 1900. I put a Question on this matter to the right hon. Gentleman. The case was that of a boy of over 15 who was charged with some offence. Mr. Fordham said to the parent: "If you do not flog this child, or allow him to be flogged within the precincts of the Court, I will sentence him to four months' imprisonment." He might sentence the lad as he liked, but he had no right whatever to bring pressure to bear on the parent to flog or permit to be flogged. The parent was asked to allow the boy to have 12 strokes with the birch rod. The father, with great reluctance, agreed, and then this magistrate on the bench said: "Mind, let them be clear, nice cut strokes; let him wait for a moment between in order that they may have their proper effect." Then the magistrate said to the miserable father, "Be a man; he deserves it." When I brought the case before the right hon. Gentleman he talked quite jocosely, and, after admitting the facts, said: "I do not propose to take any action in the matter." But he ought to have done so. I have brought these three cases before the House as to the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, and this other case of birching. I think the right hon. Gentleman ought t o have exercised that prerogative on every occasion, having regard to the opinions of the judges. Perhaps he has taken the advice of the wiseacres of the Home Office. Now, if these gentlemen offer to override him, which perhaps they do, saying—of course most respectfully—"Sir, we will carry out your opinion, but we know the practice in these matters," he should turn round on them and recall the case of Adolph Beck. That would make the Home Office clerks silent for at least a day. The right hon. Gentleman has not got them properly in order and check. I admit he has feelings which are kind, and I think that talking to him in this way will, perhaps, have some of the effect that I desire.

I come to one subject which I have raised in and out of season, but I wish to say—and I am sorry to say it—that I do not think I can wholly blame the clerks in this matter. I wish to reiterate my protest against, first of all, the way in which they were prosecuted; and, secondly, against the treatment of the various ladies who have been sent to prison. I say it was a very shocking thing that these ladies, who were really political offenders, should have been subjected to anything like indignities. When I complained of these indignities in regard to one of these ladies I only knew the matter quite accidentally from her father, who had addressed a letter to the newspapers. That gentleman was once a greatly respected Member of this House—I mean Mr. Logan.

Is the hon. Member referring to the particular case he brought before me?

No, I am not referring to the case which I brought before the right hon. Gentleman, and in regard to which I am ready to admit he struck me down. I brought forward the case of two ladies who were subjected to severe and improper treatment in prison. These are high-minded women. They have probably broken the law, but they have acted from high and unselfish motives. I brought the case forward on a Motion for the adjournment, and my right hon. Friend, the Under-Secretary for the Home Department, looked into the case. I was then away in Scotland, when I got an official letter with an enormous red platter seal. I thought I was going to be made a Lord Chief Justice of, but, no, it was a letter from my right hon. Friend trying to explain and to exculpate his Department. It was marked private and confidential, and I have never been able to use it since. I am not now saying whether I am in favour of the suffragist movement or not, but we must acknowledge the purity of the motives of these ladies. They are working for a principle, and it is a very shocking thing that between February last year and the present time no fewer than 296 ladies have been imprisoned for processions and proceedings in connection with this House of Commons. The majority of them have been confined in the second division under oppressive, cruel, hateful restrictions and supervision. They have borne their punishment like brave women, but not one of them has been tried under the ordinary law, not one of those who have been is prison for one, two, three, and four months has committed, according to the ordinary law, any offence whatever. They were tried—or rather they were not tried at all. Proceedings were taken against them, with the consent and control of the right hon. Gentleman, under the Statute of Edward III., by which for failing to give security for good behaviour they were sent to imprisonment as a preventive procedure, and month after month they have been kept there, although, of course, they could get out by entering into recognisances at any time.

A man or woman cannot give recognisances for their good behaviour when he glories in what he has done. This system of sending people to prison is a mere con trivance to avoid the ordinary trial. I am sure that will not stop the agitation. I do not express approval or disapproval of the various efforts which have been adopted, but I say that instead of stopping the agitation, since these women have gone to gaol, the agitation has advanced and increased greatly. The question we have to consider is this: is it right that these ladies whenever they are imprisoned should be suffering indignities from which Major Jameson and his followers were exempted? I am certain if these ladies had been men they would not have been made to suffer the treatment which these women are made to suffer. I would like to see 296 men come down on various occasions to this House not tried before a jury, not summoned for any crime, and not brought before a magistrate, but sent to prison practically without trial. You did not do half that when the Hyde Park railings were taken down in 1867. At any rate, reform came in a very short time, but no reform has come to these women. In these circumstances, not in any unfriendly spirit, I think the right hon. Gentleman might have shown more tenderness and more humanity and have had more respect for this agitation, whether it was rightly carried out or not, to remove what they consider, and what many of us consider, a very great grievance and a horrible sense of wrong. On this ground I have criticised, not in an unfriendly spirit, the right hon. Gentleman's attitude, and I hope that by next year he will have very greatly improved in his attitude, and that we shall be able to report very favourably upon him.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to join with those who have offered to him their congratulations upon his restoration to health, and I hope that now that we have him amongst us again we shall be able to see carried into effect some of those matters which engaged his consideration before he left us some time ago. The right hon. Gentleman the late Home Secretary in his remarks upon the Alien Bill dealt with two points in the Report which the Home Secretary merely alluded to, but in respect of which he did not give us any information or indication as to the future. My right hon. Friend pointed out that the right hon. Gentleman had increased the number of persons constituting an immigrant ship from 12 to 20. The Home Secretary mentioned in reply that there was very little difference between 12 and 20, and there was a practical effective difference between three and 20. What I wish to ask him is whether, in view of the opinion he has expressed, he proposes to reduce the figure from 20 to three, and thus give effect to the many representations made upon the subject as to the necessity for this reduction, so as to prevent the most undesirable class of immigrants getting access to this country?

The second point was that his directions cast the onus of proof not, as intended by the Statute, upon the immigrant, but upon the immigration officer. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that in October last, in reply to a question in the course of a Debate, he pointed out that there was a tendency on the part of many of the immigrants where the political question was raised to throw the onus probandi upon the officer. I think I am correct in saying that representations have reached him from the officials and others in connection with the administration of the Act which tend to show that it is necessary that the onus probandi should be put upon the immigrants, and not upon the officer. The reason which the right hon. Gentleman gave for altering the regulations in the respect I have mentioned was that there were certain parts of Europe disturbed, and he was anxious to give the fullest hospitality to those pleading that they were fleeing from political persecution. Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the Committee whether there are still parts of Europe so disturbed as to necessitate in his judgment the retention of that provision? All the evidence which reaches those who make a study of this Act, I venture to say, indicates there is no tendency on the part, say, of Russian subjects to fly during the present time from Russia in order to avoid political persecution. Such, no doubt, was the case a year or two ago.

Then there is another point in the administration of the Act on which I would like a statement from the right hon. Gentleman. He told us in reply to a question that he found the practice was growing of aliens who had been rejected trying to re-land, and to re-land from nonimmigrant ships The case he mentioned was that of a non-immigrant ship at Hull, and he said on 10th October last this practice had been growing and had been carried on systematically. I believe there is no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman has legal power to make it an offence on the part of those would-be immigrants who try to re-land after rejection, and I ask him whether he has taken any steps since last February, when the matter was brought before the House of Commons, to prevent what he described as a systematic practice being allowed to continue.

I already said that in consequence of the action I took that practice has discontinued.

May I give the right hon. Gentleman his exact words I He said, "It is a fact that aliens who had been refused leave to land returned a few days later and landed from non-emigrant ships. I regret to say I have reason to believe that landing from non-emigrant ships at Hull is carried on systematically." That was in October last. Here we are now in June. I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the result of the consideration he speaks of in the reply which I have quoted which he gave on that subject? Is the result of that consideration that he has issued instructions which will prevent these evils being continued? So far as my information goes, I have no evidence of the right hon. Gentleman having done anything in the matter.

Then there is another branch of this subject upon which I must also ask a question. In the early part of this Session, when we had a Debate upon the Aliens Act, I drew attention to the fact that there was a serious danger to the health of the community of London in consequence of the landing here of aliens suffering from trachoma, and I quoted to the House figures from the hospitals showing that a large proportion of cases treated at the hospitals for this disease were Russians recently arrived from Russia.

Yes, at that time. I gave the figures from the hospitals last year. The danger of this disease to the whole population is a question which I hope the Home Secretary will deal with, and I trust he will tell us whether he has taken any steps in the way of drawing the attention of immigration boards and others to the necessity for a more vigorous application of the Act in connection with persons who show any indication of being subject to this disease. The right hon. Gentleman will also remember that some stress was laid upon the exemption of second-class passengers under the regulation for which he is responsible, and also in the case of holders of return tickets. In the early part of this year the Home Secretary told the House that the reason why there had been such a large increase in the number of aliens with second-class and return tickets was due to the Exhibition of last year. I should be very grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would tell us this afternoon whether there has been any increase since that date in the number of second-class and return ticket-holders, and whether he does not consider it advisable to strengthen the regulation so as to reduce the number of exemptions of those classes?

My experience in the east and northeast of London goes to show that the gravest evil connected with the arrival here of these abject and unfortunate aliens is that they furnish a supply of very cheap labour, because they have a very low

standard of living, and this inflicts a, grievous injury upon the British wage-earners. These aliens constitute an increasing menace to trade unionism, and generally they are the means of lowering the whole level of wages paid to a large section of London workers. If the right hon. Gentleman has gone into this subject with care since February last there is only one conclusion he can arrive at, and it is that some strong measures ought to be taken to urge the immigration boards to enforce the Act vigorously in this connection. The powers under the Act in this respect are more than ample, because one of the most prominent provisions of the Act provides that the immigrant must show that he has means to decently support himself and his dependents. I may be wrong, but the result of the inquiries I have made is that no information is available to the public showing that the Home Office have taken any measures this year to prevent the arrival of this underpaid and sweated labour in the metropolis. The Home Secretary seemed to think that all was serene in connection with the administration of the Aliens Act, but I hold the diametrically opposite view, not because I wish to attack the right hon. Gentleman personally, but because I feel that the Aliens Act, if properly administered, would be a great safeguard, not only to the health of the workers of this country, but would also prevent a great deal of the worse form of immorality. The truth is that the Home Secretary likes one part of this Act very much and dislikes the other part. He likes that part which deals with criminals and expulsion, and he does what he can to stimulate the officials in the application of that branch of the Act to its fullest extent; but when we come to the economic side of the subject, I fear that by the discouragement which the Home Office gives by the regulation for dealing with the immigrant ship the right hon. Gentleman has perhaps unwillingly been the means of weakening measures which, if fully applied, would have been of inestimable benefit to the working classes. I know this subject has not been very loudly voiced in the Press, but it has, nevertheless, been very deeply felt by the working people, and, on behalf of those for whom I am acting, I have no alternative except to move a reduction of £100 in this Vote in order to mark the displeasure which I feel at the action and the inaction of the Home Secretary and those who represent him in the administration of this Act.

The hon. Member is .evidently not aware that a reduction of £100 has already been moved.

The hon. Member has misunderstood me. The Amendment before the Chair has not yet been disposed of.

May I say at the outset how pleased I am to see my right hon. Friend once again on the Treasury Bench? I hope he will continue to administer the Aliens Act with great consideration for the poor people who come to our shores, because they realise that there is at least one free country in the world to which they have access. In dealing with the people who have disease, I hope he will treat them in accordance with the doctrnes of true Christianity, and remember that it is his duty to extend to these poor people hospitality, and consider whether he cannot send them to some hospitals where their ailments may be treated by our skilful surgeons. That course, I think, would redound more to the honour and dignity of this nation than sending these poor afflicted people back to a country where they will be knocked about from pillar to post without any consideration of their needs. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will continue to administer this wretched Act with such consideration for the sufferings of these poor people as he has shown up to the present. With regard to the imprisonment of the ladies who marched down to this House, I hope that in future he will consider that it is not right to send them to prison at all, and it would be far better to exercise his prerogative and order their release. The imprisonment of these ladies has already thrown some light upon the administration of our prisons, for it has shown that there is a great deal which requires reform. Some of the ladies who have been imprisoned belong to good families, and it should not be forgotten that their action is entirely political, and they go to prison as a great act of self-devotion and self-sacrifice. They have committed no crime, and have done nothing but what the strongest feelings of patriotism have impelled them to do. I think it is a great hardship that people should be sent to prison and submitted to treatment which is not calculated to promote good feeling and improve their character, an object which everyone believes should be the aim of any term of imprisonment.

The revelations made as to the condition of some of these prisons, I hope, will lead the right hon. Gentleman to see that an improvement is necessary. I think it is a great pity that any suffragettes have been sent to prison at all. I do not express any opinion as to their conduct, but I think the Home Secretary might exercise his prerogative and refuse to give to these women the hospitality of His Majesty's prisons, because the ladies who have been sent to prison are now wearing the crown of martyrdom, and I do not know that that is a wise thing from a political point of view. I am entirely with the hon. Member for South Donegal (Mr. Swift MacNeill) in what he said about flogging. I do not take this view because I wish to treat such offences with any particular leniency or generosity, but because all experience goes to show that the punishment of flogging does not produce that improvement in character which some people think it does, and it does not have that deterrent effect which some people imagine. I have heard the Home Secretary describe the character of the offences for which flogging has been inflicted, but surely it is not contended that flogging is a legal form of revenge for those crimes. The whole idea of punishment is that it is necessary for the protection of society, and if it is found that a certain form of punishment does not protect society but increases the danger, surely it is inadvisable to continue to inflict that punishment. The Home Secretary has power to prevent the infliction of flogging if he chooses to intervene. The right hon. Gentleman should not promote corporeal punishment. I trust that we shall gradually progress, that we shall gradually rise out of a condition of barbarism, and progress more towards an ideal condition. Of course, we know the old saying, "Let the assassin begin." As I have said, that is an old idea; but you will not stop assassination by hanging an assassin. It is also thought that if a rascal could be flogged, then there will be in the end no case for flogging. I am anxious that the right hon. Gentleman should use his great position to put an end to one class of punishment which has a degrading effect on the offenders.

Attention called to the fact that there were not 40 Members present;

House counted and 40 Members being present,—

I hope that the Home Office will see that the inspection of places where vivisection is carried on is a thorough inspection. I hope he will see that it is no longer a farce, but that the inspection by the Home Office of these places will be effectual. I hear that the most horrible cruelties take place, and that, practically, there is no inspection at oil. The inspectors are set at defiance. Therefore, I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will not continue in the old way of trusting entirely to the tender mercies of the vivisectionists, but that he will trust to his inspectors, and see that the inspection is followed.

Attention again called to the fact that there were not 40 Members present,—

Facts seem to show that those who ought to be inspected do not want to be inspected, and that they would not welcome a real inspection, such, for instance, as is made by the inspectors of another Department of the Home Office. I am referring to the mining inspectors. Their inspection is thorough. If the right hon. Gentleman would only adopt the same system of inspection which is carried out with regard to mines, I believe that the inspection in the case of vivisection would be a popular proceeding.

I should like to ask the Home Secretary to reconsider his decision with regard to aliens. It is not so much aliens of the better sort who are coming to England, but aliens of the worst classes. I should like to point out that they are arriving on ships that are not at present inspected. I believe that all sorts of undesirable aliens are arriving in this country, and that, generally speaking, the present regulations are being infringed. I believe that they are intentionally being infringed on the part of certain ship-owners, and I believe that if the Home Secretary could see his way to do in the port of London what is being done in the North of Eng land and in Scotland he would, under the present Act, do a great deal to remedy the evil state of things that prevail in London. I believe that in the North of England and in Scotland certain special lines of steamers were put under observation, even though they carried less than 20 passengers. In fact the steamship owners were given to understand that if they carried aliens of an undesirable character their ships would be inspected, however few the passengers might be which the ships carried. I should like to see a similar arrangement tried in London, because we should then know for certain Whether aliens who are coming into this country are undesirable or not. At present we are told that aliens are arriving who are undesirable, and that there are no figures with reference to this immigration, yet it would be most desirable, when such complaints appear, as they do in the Metropolitan district, that the Home Secretary should take up a firm stand with the shipping companies. I do not think it would be necessary to wait for a very long period to see the results, so long as it was made certain that anybody would be detected who misused the privileges which exist. Such stringent regulations would give great relief to the people of London, and particularly to the people in the East End of London. I hope, therefore, that in the interests of the Metropolis the Government will see their way to do their best to put an end to the evil which exists. There is another point on which I should like to speak before sitting down. I have to make a complaint, and it is on the subject of the treatment awarded to taxi-cab drivers. I understand that they are under the supervision of the Chief Commissioner of Police. They are tried and treated by the magistrates—

Then I must defer my observations on this subject until the Vote comes up on which I can raise it. I think the Home Secretary will do well to consider some of the suggestions which I have made with regard to aliens, because the East End of London is suffering greatly at the present moment from the immigration of undesirable foreigners.

I rise because I am very much surprised that questions which have been addressed to the Treasury Bench from-this side of the House have not received any reply, although Ministers were present when they were put, and I beg now to press for an answer to them. Perhaps at the same time I may make reference to two other matters—the first relates to police pensions, and to the amount paid to widows of officers killed in the performance of their duty. I believe the present Home Secretary admits that the existing regulations are most unsatisfactory so far as the amount received by these officers' widows is concerned. I think he stated, in reply to a question on the subject, that further legislation would be required before they could be augmented, and I will not therefore refer to that point further, except to ask whether he is in a position to announce that the Government contemplate taking any action in the matter? I wish also to ask a question as to the White Slave traffic. The Home Secretary, I understand, during the course of this Session, has been in communication with numbers of persons, and has informed the House that he contemplates taking some new action. Will the right hon. Gentleman be so good as to tell us how far his contemplated arrangements have advanced, what he proposes to do, and whether he thinks it necessary, in order to carry out adequate proposals, to introduce legislation, or whether, under existing laws, he can see his way to take drastic and sufficient measures to stamp out this evil, particularly in connection with the employment of young girls abroad? I believe cases have recently been brought to his notice in which young persons have gone to Berlin, and have been left to starve in a country with the language of which they are unacquainted. This is a matter of serious and growing importance, and surely the time has arrived for an immediate decision being taken by the Home Office to put in force fruitful measures. There is only one other topic on which I wish to say a word. Like the hon. Member for South Donegal, I do not desire to express my opinion as to the Suffragists' movement, but I emphatically associate myself with him and others who take exception to the prison treatment accorded to female political offenders. I am aware that the treatment of political male offenders has been very much changed during the last few years, and that it is not possible to compare that treatment with the treatment accorded to female prisoners to-day. I think it is high time we should have a statement on this subject from the Home Office. We should know whether the present Government propose to leave things as they are, or whether they propose to adopt measures which will be in consonance with public feeling, and prevent these persons who, rightly or wrongly, fight for ideals, being treated as ordinary criminals who deserve rigorous treatment.

I will respond to the invitation of the hon. Member, and at once point out that the Suffragist prisoners are not treated as ordinary criminals. The latter go into the third division, while these ladies have been relegated to the second division, and kept wholly apart from association with ordinary criminals. They are detained in that branch of the prison which is designed for persons who have committed no grave offence, and who are not of the ordinary criminal type.

Surely these ladies have committed no offence whatever. They are in prison in default of finding bail for their good behaviour.

The hon. Member is not correct in saying that they have committed no offence. They are put on their trial for an offence, and are ordered to find recognisances, and failing to give those recognisances they are sent to prison. If the hon. Member considers that the magistrates are wrong in their law and the Home Secretary is wrong in his law, I think he will find that that is not an idea which is generally entertained in this House.

I ground my opinion on the statement of the Lord Chief Baron of Ireland that it is not an offence.

I turn next to the question of the pensions granted to widows of police officers killed on duty. That is a matter which requires to be dealt with by legislation, and I should therefore be wholly out of order in making any announcement on the subject in the course of a Debate on a Supply Vote. Similarly with regard to the White Slave traffic. The present law is administered as effectively as possible, but the power conferred on the police and on the authorities responsible for the administration of the law is not always sufficient to enable the criminal to be arrested and punished. With regard to the employment of girls abroad, the hon. Member is fully aware that legislation is required to put a stop to the abuses that arise since he himself has introduced a Bill, and since that is so I am prevented making any announcement. Coming next to the question of the administration of the Aliens Act, the hon. Member has asked whether we have figures showing the variations in the state of the alien traffic this year corn-pared with that of last year. I am afraid I have no figures to show what the effect on that traffic has been of the removal of the exceptional conditions which obtained last year. We know that a very large number of foreigners came here in connection with the Franco-British Exhibition, but I am unable to say to what extent that affected the traffic in comparison with this year. A new point raised by the hon. Member was with reference to the systematic importation of undesirable aliens into Hull. My hon. Friend says he was told some months ago that the matter was under consideration, and that action should be taken. Well, action has been taken, and representations have been made with the effect that the practice has entirely stopped, and we have no knowledge that that systematic importation of aliens into Hull is being continued.

Although I quoted Hull, I quoted it only to show that it was an evil that in the mind of the Home Secretary existed at Hull. Those who are acquainted with the working of the Aliens Act know this practice is not confined to the case of Hull—that the case of Hull was not a singular one, but is repeated in London.

The question referred to Hull, and, as the hon. Member says, the Home Secretary referred to Hull. It was said that there was a systematic importation of aliens into Hull, and we were not aware that there was any similar case arising in London, but should similar circumstances prove to exist in the case of London my right hon. Friend, if it is practicable, will no doubt take similar action. An hon. Friend of mine raised several points which have already been dealt with in the reply of the Home Secretary. His questions relating to vivisection must be met by the same answer that my right hon. Friend gave. All these matters are being thoroughly considered by a Royal Commission, which is now bringing its investigations to a close, and which will shortly present its Report. As soon as its Report is presented, it will receive the fullest consideration. In this connection I may add to what my right hon. Friend said, in reply to the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. G. Greenwood), who said that my right hon. Friend delegates the work of issuing vivisection certificates to the Association for the Advancement of Medicine by Research—there is no founda- tion for that alegation at all. The Home Office have always investigated each case by the inspectors appointed by the Home Secretary, and it is on the report of those inspectors that the Home Secretary is satisfied or not satisfied as to the suitability of the persons who apply for licences. I do not know that there have been any other specific questions addressed to my right hon. Friend or myself, and therefore I trust the Committee will allow us now to have this Vote, and go on to the next Home Office Vote, on which some hon. Members desire to raise some questions.

Before this Vote is passed, there is another question which I raised last year, and which was discussed and disposed of in less than 20 minutes. It is, however, a matter of very great importance for the whole of the metropolis, and it is the administration by the Home Office so far as the use of motor omnibuses is concerned. That is a matter of vital importance, not only with regard to property owners, but with regard to the whole of the residents in the metropolis.

That question comes on under Vote 7. It does not fall under this Vote. It falls under the Police Vote.

I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question on the report of the working of the Aliens Act, and that is what steps the Home Office intend to take to have the expulsion of aliens carried out throughout the country—I mean the expulsion of convicted aliens. I should like to know from the under-Secretary if he is permitted to say whether the Home Secretary intends to take steps, and what steps, to draw the attention of the courts throughout the country to their powers under the Aliens Act in order that they may exercise their powers of expulsion in the cases of serious crime?

The question of the hon. Member was answered by anticipation by my right hon. Friend earlier in the afternoon. Last year we sent out a circular to the courts drawing their attention to these powers, and this year we are again circularising the courts, drawing their attention to the fact that the Home Secretary has not got power under the Act to issue orders of expulsion against any alien until a court of law first sets him in motion. We are accompanying that circular by the second part of the Report of the Aliens' Inspector, to which the hon. Member has just referred, and we hope that this will draw the attention of all the courts to the desirability which My right hon. Friend strongly feels, and which I for one very fully share—the desirability in all cases of alien crime of securing the expulsion of the criminal at the earliest possible date, and his exclusion permanently from the country whose hospitality he has abused.

I am very glad that my hon. Friend has at last extracted some announcement from the Under-Secretary, to the effect that the Government have at last made up their minds to fully enforce that section of the Aliens Act which deals with alien criminals. The Under-Secretary did not reply to the various points which I raised in connection with what I call the economic and health side of the Act. He merely told the House that the Home Secretary had dealt with those points, as I think, very imperfectly, when he addressed the House last February in reply to the Amendment to the Address which I moved on the subject. Therefore I will repeat the question, in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to say whether the Government are contemplating doing anything under the various heads which I have raised, or whether they are satisfied with the present administration, and think that it suffices, and that no improvement is necessary. First, let me ask him, Do they propose to reduce the number from 20 to the effective number of 2 or 3, the figure mentioned by the Home Secretary; secondly, what measures have they taken, and do they propose to take any further and stronger measures, to deal with the system which brings all these aliens to the metropolis, and are they going to leave the arrangements as to second-class passengers and return ticket holders where they are at present, or is the Home Secretary going to rescind the amendment of the regulations, which he made shortly after he acceded to office, and which nullifies to a large extent the draft and directions which the late Home Secretary had in course of preparation? Then last, but not least, there are the questions in regard to the change of the onus of proof from the immigrant to the immigration officer, if the immigrant pleads "Political," because it is obvious that if the immigrant has a hint given him that if he pleads "political" the onus of proof will not be put upon him, but upon the immigration officer, he will take that course, and that will to a large extent destroy the efficacy of the Act in keeping out a large class of unsuitable would-be immigrants. Then surely it is time to ask: Do the Government propose to do anything new and strong in this connection in respect to the Port of London; and, lastly, how about the cheap labour? The Act provides certain powers whereby the immigration authority can send back the class of alien who comes here to be sweated, and thereby endangers the general standard of life and wages which we consider necessary for our civilisation. Obviously it is difficult to keep these people out if the Government choose to make the number of persons 20 before the ship becomes an immigrant ship. If, on the other hand, the number were reduced, as they did reduce it in the case of Scotland when Scotland was invaded by gypsies, they would soon put a stopper upon that class of immigrant, who, in my experience, are not only an evil but a sorrow to some of the kindliest men of foreign extraction, particularly to those of the Jewish persuasion, who desire to assist their unfortunate brethren who come here. Unquestionably these undesirables who come here to a large extent create a prejudice against aliens, and sterilise the desire of philanthropists and others to assist the unfortunate, and therefore the blame, in my judgment, is upon the Government if they allow a state of things to continue which results in the bad alien getting here and preventing the good alien, poor as he may be, from getting that share of work in this country at full and proper wages which he would be able to enjoy if he were not himself pulled down and lowered in his chances of life by this detestable and evil class of men who come here from their native countries, which are uncommonly glad to see the last of them.

Perhaps I ought to answer the very specific questions the hon. Member has put, although, as I said, the whole of these points were very fully dealt with by my right hon. Friend last February. In regard to the number of aliens which constitute an immigrant ship, the number of 20 was inserted in the Act, and it was the number which passed this House and was considered by the late Government as not being very inadequate or they would not have inserted it. It would require special action of the Home Secretary to reduce that number. The hon. Member asks whether the Home Secretary has arrived at any decision to reduce it from 20 to three. He has not arrived at any such decision. What action the Government propose to, take with regard to trachoma? It is most carefully looked after by the medical officers, and where detected it is regarded as a case for rejection.

That does not deal with the point of trachoma coming in ships which are not emigrant ships.

The late Home Secretary, though he intended to deal with the alien traffic in bulk, no attempt was intended to be made when they came over by ones or twos. With regard to second-class passengers and return ticket holders, the report of the aliens' inspector does not show that the present arrangements were unsatisfactory, and the Home Secretary sees no reason as at present advised to alter that. With regard to the order of the Home Secretary requiring immigration officers to give persons who claim to be persecuted refugees the benefit of the doubt, I would remind him of what was said by the late Solicitor-General, the right hon. Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson).

Much that the hon. Member has said is also ancient history. The late Solicitor-General said:

"The only matter in which there might be ground for criticism seemed to be taken away if they looked at the thing fairly and honestly, because all the Home Secretary had clone was to bring to the minds of the immigration officers a sense of their duty, which even without the instructions, they no doubt obeyed."

It was the same Order which was praised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman who adorns the Front Bench opposite. With regard to persons pleading to be political refugees from disturbed countries of Europe, if there is any persecution proceeding—and, happily, at the moment there does not seem to be any persecution proceeding—the Orders, of course, will not apply.

Lastly, the hon. Member asks: What action is the Home Secretary taking with regard to aliens who come over here willing to be sweated—cheap, undesirable labour—who are of the type who ought to be kept out? The determination as to whether or not a particular alien or class of alien is to be kept out does not rest with the Home Secretary, but, in the first in- stance, with the immigration officer, and in the second with the Immigration Board. There is no appeal to the Home Secretary, and the Home Secretary has no right of determining such questions as those to which the hon. Member has referred.

I was one of those who sat on the Bill itself upstairs. I remember very clearly the prophecies of evil which were then made as to the results which would happen to this country after the Bill had passed. There were two main points made on that occasion. One was that we should destroy the reputation of this country for hospitality if we exercised some sort of investigation as to the character and the quality of those who came into this country. I think that objection has entirely disappeared, and I am not aware myself that our reputation for hospitality has suffered, or whether, if it has, there has been any undesirable fall in our reputation as a country which harbours people from wherever they may come. The second point was that this country, situated as it is, being different from other European countries, having such a very large seaboard—

The hon. Member is discussing what took place when the Bill was before the House.

I did not wish to discuss what happened then. I only wished to illustrate out of this report itself how all these fears—

Exactly. The hon. Member was answering objections which were taken to the Bill by facts which have occurred since.

Then I will make one or two observations as to the report itself. I am very glad, any how, to see that the regulations as to expulsion have been exceedingly successful. I see from the report that the number of aliens who were charged before the Central Criminal Court are only a third of what they were a few years ago. It is a very remarkable thing, and I think a criticism upon the number of Acts that they are constantly passing that it appears that the provisions of this Act are not very well known, I will not say to the ordinary voter in the country, but to those people who actually have the administration of the Act itself, because we find that the percentage of these aliens who, after condemnation, have been sentenced to expulsion from this country, is a far smaller proportion in the provincial courts than it is in the central courts in London. I am one of those, of course, who would much prefer that these aliens should be expelled from this country without having served a sentence. It of course entails a certain charge upon this country that they should be expelled before their sentence of imprisonment rather than after sentence.

May I call attention further to the great success of the bond taken by certain shipping companies, and to the great effect that has had in the diminution of criminals coming into this country. One of the matters from which we suffer, or have suffered, in this country, is the fact that other countries had very stringent regulations about refusing to receive undesirable aliens when they landed on their shores. They were in the habit of sending back these undesirable people to this country, so that we got not only our share of the criminals who came to us from European and other countries, but also had the selected criminals, if I may so call them, who were actually rejected by other countries when making an attempt to land. By this bond all this has been altered, and the shipping companies, as appears from the report, have extremely well on the whole discharged their duties under the bond. A large number of aliens, criminals in many cases, and certainly undesirable aliens, who have landed in this country have by the operation of the bond been traced and sent back to other countries. I am reinforced in this by the statements in the report which tell us that it was from South Africa that some of these most undesirable aliens came, many of them engaged in the White Slave Traffic. These had been got rid of in this country, but they would have remained before the Act was passed. I regret, of course, that there has been an alteration in the number of exemptions. The Home Secretary said he drew a considerable distinction between 20 and three, although not between 20 and 12.

I am one of those who would like the distinction to be drawn much finer than it is, for I can quite see that when 20 is the number these undesirable aliens may come in parties of 15, 16, or 17, and in this way evade the Act. I think it is a remarkable thing that, in spite of all these large exemptions, and in spite of the fact that it has been raised to 20, we do see that the results of the Act have been most fortunate in diminishing the number of aliens who remain in this country. We have been told that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish the trans-migrants in the country. That has been done in almost every instance. There are very few exceptions, and the result is that we now have a diminution of the number of undesirable aliens coming into this country, and not only a rapid deportation of those who do happen to come, but also a considerable general view of the whole inward and outward movement of aliens hi this country, and we are able to trace with remarkable exactitude what are the fortunes or chose who come in and go out. Under these circumstances I think we can claim considerable success for the Act. If the Statute had only been administered as it should have been in the first instance, and if those changes and reductions had not been made in the regulations which the Home Secretary of the Unionist Government first advised, I think there would have been more success in the administration of the Act than we find at present. At any rate, a great deal of good has been done, and I express the hope that, as the result of the Report, the Home Secretary may be urged to make more stringent regulations than we have now under the Act, and that he will reduce the number who can come in in emigrant ships to this country.

Question put: "That the reduced sum of £140,700 be granted to His Majesty for the said services."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 20; Noes, 140.

Division No. 162.]

AYES.

[8.55 p.m.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Fell, Arthur

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Cave, George

Fletcher, J. S.

Valentia, Viscount

Clyde, J. A.

Forster, Henry William

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Craik, Sir Heary

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr.

Dalrymple, Viscount

Salter, Arthur Cleve

Claude Hay and Mr. Peel.

Doughty, Sir George

Stanler, Beville

NOES.

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Beale, W. P.

Bewerman, C. W.

Barnard, E B

Beck, A. Cecil

Bramsdon, T. A.

Barran, Sir John Nicholson

Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Barry, E. (Cork, S)

Bennett, E. N.

Bredie, H. C.

Bryce, J. Annan

Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.)

Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Horniman, Emslie John

Ridsdale, E. A.

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Hudson, Walter

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Jackson, R. S.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Cameron, Robert

Jenkins, J.

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Robinson, S.

Clough, William

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Compton Rickett, Sir J.

Jordon, Jeremiah

Rowlands, J.

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

Jowett, F. W.

Russell, Rt. Hon T. W.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Kavanagh, Walter M.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Lamont, Norman

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Delany, William

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Seaverns, J. H.

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Levy, Sir Maurice

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-shire)

Lewis, John Herbert

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Donelan, Captain A.

Lupton, Arnold

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Steadman, W. C.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Essex, R. W.

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Esslemont, George Birnie

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

Strachey, Sir Edward

Everett, R. Lacey

M'Callum, John M.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Fenwick, Charles

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Ferens, T. R.

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Ffrench, Peter

Micklem, Nathaniel

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.)

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Mond, A.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Gill, A. H.

Murnaghan, George

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

Murphy, John (Kerry, East)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Glendinning, R. G.

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Wardle, George J.

Glover, Thomas

Nicholls, George

Waterlow, D. S.

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Watt, Henry A.

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Norton, Captain Cecil William

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Gulland, John W.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Wiles, Thomas

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Wilkie, Alexander

Harrington, Timothy

Parker, James (Halifax)

Williams, .J (Glamorgan)

Hart-Davies, T.

Pointer, J.

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Pollard, Dr. G. H.

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Haworth, Arthur A.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Winfrey, R.

Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Yoxall, James Henry

Higham, John Sharp

Radford, G. H.

Hedge, John

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr.

Hogan, Michael

Rees, J. D.

Joseph Pease and the Master of

Hooper, A. G.

Richards, Thomas (W. Monmouth)

Elibank.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Commissioners in Lunacy (England)

Resolved: "That a sum not exceeding £11,461 be granted to His Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1910, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Commissioners in Lunacy in England."

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Wednesday next, 16th June.

I was told by the Chairman of Committee—I wanted to speak on the Home Office Vote, and I have been sitting here since the House opened—

Order, order. The House knows nothing about what is done in Committee.

Adjournment,— Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[ Mr. Joseph. Pease. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Two minutes after-nine o'clock.