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Commons Chamber

Volume 6: debated on Tuesday 15 June 1909

House of Commons

Tuesday, June 15, 1909

Private Business

Blackwood Gas Bill,

Indian Railways (Sinking Funds Investment) Bill [ Lords ] [not amended],

Considered; to be read the third time.

Lisburn Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],

Manchester Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Read a second time and committed.

Presentation of Bills

Bill presented to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Merchants House of Glasgow (Buchanan and Ewing Bequests) (to be proceeded with under Section 7 of the Act).—[ The Lord Advocate. ]

Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday next, 17th June.

Bill presented to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Glasgow Hospital for Skin Diseases (to be proceeded with under Section 7 of the Act).—[ The Lord Advocate. ]

Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 17th June.

Returns

Revenue and Expenditure (England, Scotland and Ireland)

Resolved: "That the Order [3rd June] for a Return relative thereto be read and discharged, and, instead thereof:—Return ordered showing, for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1909, (1) the amount contributed by England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, to the Revenue collected by Imperial officers; (2) the Expenditure on English, Scottish, and Irish services met out of such Revenue; and (3) the balances of Revenue contributed by England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, which are available for Imperial Expenditure (in continuation of Parlia- mentary Paper, No. 216, of Session 1908."—[ Mr. John O'Connor. ]

Finance Bill (Enactments Referred To)

Return ordered of "Copy of Enactments referred to in the Finance Bill, 7909."—[ The Financial Secretary to the Treasury. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Russian Troops in Persia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Russian troops were occupying any other towns in Persia than Tabriz; and, if so, on what grounds?

Beyond the detachments alluded to in my answer to the hon. Member for West Mayo on the 20th ultimo there are none.

Russian Loan

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Russian loan had been finally accepted by the Shah; and, if so, whether he was now in a position to inform the House as to the allocation of the money?

The question was still under discussion on the 1st instant. As regards the latter part of the question I can give the hon. Member no information beyond that contained in the answer given to the hon. Member for Bath on 26th May.

Czar's Visit to England

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the forthcoming visit of the Czar of Russia to the shores of this country had any official character or would receive any official recognition?

asked the Secretary of State if he was aware that the Czar of Russia intended to visit English territorial waters at about the latter end of July; and if the visit would in any way be officially recognised by the Government?

asked the Secretary of State if he could say what was likely to be the extent and duration of the proposed visit of the Emperor of Russia to this country; and what places will be included in it?

asked when the proposed visit of the Emperor of Russia to this country was expected to take place; and whether His Majesty's Government were responsible for arranging it?

In reply to the first question, and to the question asked on this subject by the hon. Member for South West Ham (Mr. W. Thorne), and the first question asked by the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Morrell) I would beg to refer the hon. Members to the reply given on the 10th instant to the hon. Member for North Hackney. As regards the first part of the hon. Member's second question, I beg also to refer him to the reply returned to the hon. Member for North Hackney on the 10th instant. The time is early in August. As regards the second part, a visit to His Majesty the King by the Emperor of Russia, amongst the series of visits which His Majesty proposes to pay during the summer to the Sovereigns of other countries, and to the head of the French Republic, especially during the Emperor's presence in the English Channel, is both natural and in accordance with international courtesy. His Majesty's Government take full responsibility for the visit.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the intense and growing feeling in this country against the Czar visiting it? It would be a very good job if the Russian people—

Order, order. The hon. Member is not asking a question; he is making a speech.

Will there be any expenditure of public money in connection with this visit, and, if so, will the Estimate be laid before the House before the expenditure is incurred?

It has not occurred to me that there will be any special expenditure beyond what is usual. If there is any special expenditure, I am not aware so far that we have had a special Estimate in connection with other visits to this country.

Is it too late to arrange that this visit shall be of a purely private character?

It is quite out of the question that the visit which the Emperor of Russia is going to pay to the King at Cowes should be on different lines to those which he pays to other Sovereigns.

I hope he will get his deserts when he gets here. The British do not want him.

May I, Sir, call attention to the fact that an hon. Member said that when the Czar of Russia came here he would get his desserts. Is that in order?

It is a discourteous expression to use towards the monarch of a friendly foreign country.

Sir Horace Plunkett (Mr. Roosevelt's Letter)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has consulted the Chief Secretary for Ireland as to the propriety of publishing the letter of the ex-President of the United States on account of its interest as affecting Ireland?

I have consulted my right hon. Friend and we agreed that there was no reason to depart from the usual practice of not publishing officially private communications of this nature. There is no objection to publication by others, which I understand has already taken place.

Persian Affairs

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the Circular addressed to the European Powers by the Russian Government when it proposed to send troops to Tabriz?

As I informed the hon. Member for Leicester on 4th May, the Circular has been published by the Russian Government in the Press. It will be included in any further Papers which may be laid.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he will lay further Papers on the affairs of Persia, and up to what date these Papers will come; and whether he has yet obtained the permission of the Russian Government to publish the Russian despatch of January last on the affairs of Persia?

I hope to be able to lay further Papers on the affairs of Persia up to and including 10th May last, about the middle of next month, but I cannot commit myself to the exact date. The Memorandum of the Russian Government of January last will be included in the correspondence.

Criminal Investigation Department (India)

asked whether any fresh powers have been conferred upon the Criminal Investigation Department; and what steps His Majesty's Government are taking in consequence of Sir Laurence Jenkin's condemnation of police methods to protect the liberties of British subjects in India from police invasion?

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY
(Mr. Hobhouse, in the absence of Mr. Buchanan)

The police officers of the Criminal Investigation Department have the same powers as other police officers in India, and no powers beyond these have been conferred upon them. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 2nd June last.

Have the condemnations reported been general and comprehensive, or have they been confined to the particular cases to which such comments related?

All that will be known when the Report from the Government of India reaches this country.

Turkish Troops in Persia

asked whether any Turkish troops are at present in Persia; whether any communications have passed between the Turkish Government and the English Government on the question of sending Turkish troops into Persia; and, if so, whether the British Government have made any objection to the sending of Turkish troops into Persian territory?

There are Turkish troops in Persian terri- tory near Salmas and in the neighbourhood of Urumia. The Grand Vizier has lately informed the Persian Ambassador at Constantinople, in reply to his representations, that a Turkish officer had been killed and a Turkish Consulate attacked by Persian Kurds, that the Porte had no intention of occupying Persian territory permanently, but that, as long as there was no Persian authority, they must take steps to protect their people. There has been no recent communication between His Majesty's Government and the Turkish Government on the subject.

Is there any foundation for the statement that the Russians have despatched 150 men to Urumia?

I could not answer that without notice. In the present abnormal condition of affairs in Persia it is, of course, possible that changes may take place from day to day.

Is it not a fact that the points occupied by the Turkish troops are strategical points adjoining their own frontier which are menaced by the Russian military occupation of parts of Northern Persia?

Is it not the case that there is a geographical boundary dispute of long standing in that district, which may give a colourable explanation of Turkish occupation?

Yes, it is true that there has been a long-standing boundary dispute extending over some years. With regard to the question of what are strategical positions and what are not, I believe there are very few positions the strategical value of which is not a matter of opinion.

Kowloon Railway

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will inform the House of the reason why the construction of the Kowloon Railway at Hong Kong, laid out by a competent engineer, the length being about 22 miles and the final estimate of cost some £500,000, was not let by public tender to any of the responsible contracting firms willing to construct it for that sum within a specified time, but was being carried on departmentally, with no time limit, at a cost now estimated at over £1,000,000; why the principle of public tender, enforced by other Government Departments, was departed from by the Colonial Office in respect of engineering works in the Colonies; and whether, seeing that the payment to Crown Agents of a percentage on the amount such works gives them an interest in increasing that amount, and the control of such works gives them extensive patronage in the Colonies and unlimited discretion in the placing of orders for manufactured materials, also without any test by public tender, he will say when the Colonial Office will, like other public Departments, abandon nomination and patronage and adopt public tender in the Colonies as in this country?

The decision to construct this line departmentally was taken on the advice of the consulting engineers after full consideration of the circumstances. The increase in the estimated cost, to which my hon. Friend refers, is due partly to unexpected difficulties in construction and partly to extensions of the original design. The question whether such works shall be constructed departmentally or otherwise is decided in each case on its merits, and I may mention that more than one important work in the Crown Colonies is now being executed by contractors as the result of competitive tenders. The Crown Agents are not paid by percentage, but receive fixed salaries. The Colony does not pay to them a percentage on the amount of the work in question, and the Crown Agents have neither the control of the work nor any patronage in the Colony in connection therewith.

What was the original estimate per mile for the tunnel portion? Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that it has already cost £200,000 per mile?

I cannot say offhand what was the original estimate. That very tunnel is one of the particular points to which I referred in my answer where the amount was exceeded owing to unforeseen difficulties.

How is it that in the making of the railway, the object of which is purely commercial, the commercial principle of inviting tenders has not been adhered to as is required by all other Departments of Government and public companies?

I have answered most of that in my answer I think. If the hon. Gentleman will put down another question on the subject I will give him a fuller answer on that specific point.

Sierra Leone Railway

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the circular issued by the Colonial Office some years ago confining the right of appeal to the Governor, of persons employed on the Sierra Leone Government railway, to heads of departments, all of whom were Europeans, is still in force; whether pay for overtime on the railway is confined to those departments in which Europeans are employed; whether fines up to 20s. may be, and are, imposed for trifling offences; and whether he proposes taking action for the removal of these causes of grievance to the natives employed on the said railway?

It is the rule that all persons employed on the Sierra Leone Government Railway, whether Europeans or natives, except heads of departments and men on the permanent establishment, can be dealt with by way of discipline by the general manager, without the right of appeal to the Governor. It is not the case that pay for overtime on the railway is confined to those departments in which Europeans are employed or that fines on the scale suggested by my hon. Friend are imposed for trifling offences. No distinction is made between European and native employés in these respects.

Jamaica and United Kingdom (Steamship Service)

asked when the renewal of the contract for a steamship service between Jamaica and the United Kingdom will come up for consideration; and whether, in view of the fact that Ireland contributes to the subsidy paid in connection with the contract, it will be made a condition that at least some of the steamers shall call at Queenstown, both on the outward and homeward voyages, and thus give a direct exchange of trade between Ireland and the West India Islands?

The Secretary of State has not yet received from the Government of Jamaica any official proposals as to a new contract for a steamship service between the Colony and the United Kingdom. This matter will be discussed with the Governor, who is now on his way home on leave of absence. I cannot say whether it will be possible to arrange a call at Queenstown in connection with a new contract, but the suggestion will be brought to the Governor's notice.

Could steps be taken with a view to ensure that previous to a renewal of the existing contract full opportunity will be afforded for the consideration of this very important matter?

We will consider it most carefully at the Colonial Office, and I shall be glad to communicate with my hon. Friend. With regard to the consideration of this very important matter? be a question for the Prime Minister.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that at one time a considerable direct trade was carried on between Ireland and the West Indies?

Exported Wheat and Flour

asked what was the amount and value of wheat exported from the United Kingdom during the 12 months ending 30th April, 1909, and the amount of flour exported from the United Kingdom in the 12 months ending 30th April of each of the years 1899 and 1909?

During the 12 months ended 30th April, 1909, 400,610 cwt. of wheat, the produce of the United Kingdom, of a declared value of £152,881, and 572,855 cwt. of wheat, the produce of foreign countries and British Possessions, of a declared value of £240,595, were exported from the United Kingdom. During the same period 1,824,342 cwt. of wheatmeal and flour, manufactured in the United Kingdom, and 83,290 cwt. manufactured elsewhere, were exported, The records for the 12 months ended 30th April, 1899, are unfortunately defective, but in the 12 months ended 30th April, 1898, the exports of wheat-meal and flour were 400,061 cwt., manufactured in the United Kingdom, and 405,109 cwt. manufactured elsewhere.

Deportations from India

asked how many of the nine Indian gentlemen undergoing deportation are confined in gaols; what are their names, and in what gaols are they?

All the persons referred to are confined in gaols. Their names are:—Sabodh Chandra Mullick, Manoranjan Gaha Thakurta, Krishto Kumar Mitra, Sachindra Prosad Bose, Shamsunder Chakravarti, Aswini Kumar Dutt, Satish Chandra Chatterji, Pulin Behari Das, Bhupesh Chandra Nag. The names of the gaols in which they are respectively detained were given in reply to a question asked by the hon. Member for the Newbury Division on 23rd February.

asked whether the attention of the Secretary of State for India has been called to the fact that on Wednesday last leave was unanimously given by this House to bring in a Bill to amend in important particulars the Regulations under which the Executive in India was authorised to deport British subjects without charge or trial; and whether he will bring to the notice of the Government of India the suggested Amendments?

A copy of the Bill will be sent to the Government of India in the course of ordinary routine. The Secretary of State is not prepared to take any action in advance of a mature decision of Parliament.

In communicating this to the Government of India, will they be informed that practically any Bill obtains a first reading and that no significance attaches to the fact?

Is the House to, understand that when the word "deport" is used on that Bench, it means "imprison"?

Reform Act (India)

asked when provisions of the new Reform Act likely to be put in operation in Bengal?

The Secretary of State is unable at present to give any definite answer as to the date at which the provisions of the Indian Councils Act will take effect in Bengal, but the Government of India have the matter under consideration, and will publish the Regulations as soon as possible.

Zemindar Rebellion, Punjab

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the uprising of the zemindars which resulted in the overthrow and imprisonment of the State officials in the native State of Mandi; whether, previous to this, the zemindars had repeatedly petitioned the Punjab Government to protect them against he corruption and maladministration prevailing in the State; and whether he will cause an official inquiry to be made into the whole circumstances which led to the rebellion?

The Secretary of State has no official information on the subject. He has asked the Government of India to furnish a Report.

May I ask whether the revolting zemindars were natives of India, and whether the corrupt officers of the native State, for protection against whom they appealed to the British Government of the Punjab, were natives of India?

I am afraid the answer I gave to the hon. Gentleman opposite applies also to the supplementary question, namely, that the Secretary of State has no information.

May I ask whether this question indicates some great improvement in British-Indian administration or some little enlightenment on the part of its critics?

Is the hon. Member aware that several European officials are implicated in this corruption?

Midnapur Case

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he has any information about the Midnapur case as to whether, in the police inquiry, every arrest was promptly reported to a magistrate and within the maximum period of 24 hours; whether the requirements of the code of criminal procedure as to remands of accused persons to police custody were observed in the inquiry by the magistrate; and whether the inquiry ordered by the Secretary of State in Council will ascertain whether, in matters concerned with the liberty of the subject, justice was administered according to law.

The Secretary of State has at present no information on the points raised in the first two questions. Full reports of the case are on their way from India. The inquiry which has been ordered by the Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal (not by the Secretary of State in Council) will no doubt cover the whole conduct of the case.

Wheat Imports into France and Germany (Prices and Duties)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he would state the dates whereon the last four alterations in the import duties on wheat into France and Germany were made; what were the several rates of such duties; and what were the average prices per quarter during each year following such alterations in each such country and in the United Kingdom respectively?

I will have the information asked for by the hon. Member printed in the Votes. [ See Written Answers this date. ]

All-Red Route Negotiations

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the negotiations promised at the Colonial Conference with a view to the establishment of the All-Red Route had broken down or had been suspended; and, if not, what stage in such negotiations had at present been reached?

As I have already informed the House, I am not yet in a position to make any statement on this matter, which is still under consideration.

Killarney Hotels (Representatives at Railway Station)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if the Great Southern and Western Railway Company were entitled to exclude the representatives of all the hotels in Killarney from their station on the arrival of trains, and make an exception in the case of the two hotels owned by Mr. Fritz Koenigs, whose representatives were allowed on the station; and whether he could take any steps to prevent this preferential treatment?

I do not think that I can add anything to the reply which I gave to the question put by the hon. Member on 22nd June last year, of which I am sending him a copy.

Favus in Metropolitan Area

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he could state what number of persons were suffering from favus in the metropolitan area according to the last returns?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. There are no complete Returns of the number of persons suffering from favus in the Metropolitan area. The disease chiefly exists amongst children coming from Russia and other Eastern countries, and I find that, in the year 1908, 23 children had been admitted to the special favus school of the London County Council, 28 had left, and there were 76 still on the roll.

Aliens Act (Evasion)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention had been drawn to the statement lately made by the chief immigration officer of the Port of London before the Immigration Board of that port to the effect that letters of invitation to immigrants from persons in this country were being hawked about at Bremen, and could be bought by any intending immigrant for a small sum, these letters containing ostensible offers of work meant to enable the persons in possession of them to evade the Aliens Act; and whether he would direct immigration officers to act upon section 7, sub-section (4), of the Aliens Act in cases where they had reason to believe that immigrants had used letters of this description for the purpose of creating a false impression in the mind of an immigration officer?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the prosecution of any person under the section quoted does not rest with the immigration officers. They report any case of serious misrepresentation to the inspector under the Act, and, when my attention is called to the question, either in this way or by the reports which I receive of the proceedings before the immigration boards, I consider it fully, and I have, in proper cases, directed proceedings to be taken.

New Docks at Immingham (Precautions against Accident)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention had been called to an accident which recently occurred on the new dock works at Immingham by the breaking of the gib of a crane; whether his Department were represented at the inquest; if so, whether any official report upon the subject had been received, and does such report mention the fact that the crane had been in use for over 10 years; and what action he intended to take to secure proper inspection of dangerous machinery upon public works?

No, Sir. The accident was not one which was reportable. under the present state of the law to my Department, and no officer of the Department was present at the inquest, or had notice of the inquest in time to attend. I understand that the accident was duly reported to the Board of Trade in pursuance of the Notice of Accidents Act, 1894. As regards the last part of the question, the hon. Member is aware that I have introduced a Bill this Session which deals with the question of safety on engineering works.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he recently informed me that the Board of Trade had no power to demand notice of accidents or to inquire into the causes of accidents when they occur at docks in course of construction?

Second Division, Home Fleet (Vessels in Dockyards)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state how many battleships and cruisers were away from the Second Division of the Home Fleet, in dockyard hands, during the week of 16th to 22nd May, and what were their names?

The battleships "Commonwealth," "Hibernia" and "Dominion," and the second class protected cruisers "Juno" and "Talbot"; also (from the second cruiser squadron) the "Natal" and "Warrior."

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Admiralty approve of the system which allows seven out of 19 battleships to be away from the first line of defence at one time?

Bandsmen in the Navy

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what number of bandsmen are included in the 16,028 warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the Royal Marine Artillery and Royal Marine Light Infantry?

In the number 16,028 are included the following bandsmen for Royal Marine divisions and depot:—

Vessels Removed from Effective List (Foreign Navies)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what vessels had been condemned since January, 1908, as useless for war service in the British, Japanese, United States, German, and French navies?

In the Duke Return for the current year only battleships and cruisers are included which are under 20 years of age from date of launch. A comparison of this year's Return with that of last year shows what ships have been omitted. No similar age-limit is adopted in the Dilke Return as regards other classes of ships. Vessels belonging to the foreign Powers named in the question which have been removed from the effective list since January, 1908, will be circulated with the printed papers.—[ See Written Answers this date. ]

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he cannot give the actual number of British vessels that have been condemned? It would be an act of courtesy on his part to do so. He tells me practically to go to work and find out for myself.

I did not wish to convey that impression. The hon. Gentleman will observe the form in which he puts his question. He asks: "What vessels have been condemned since January, 1908, as useless for war service." Many of these vessels omitted may not have been condemned, but placed on the mother bank. They may not be in commission or immediately employed, but it is quite possible that they might be useful for service. The use of the word "condemned" does not cover any possible case that I could deal with in answering the question.

Bellerophon," "Temeraire," and "Superb" (Delay in Completion)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what were the original dates of completion for the "Bellerophon," "Temeraire," and "Superb"; and why were these ships delayed?

"Dreadnoughts" (Austrian Preparations)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is in a position to give any further information to the House with reference to the number of "Dreadnoughts," or vessels of the "Dreadnought" type, which Austria has in preparation or contemplation?

Rural Post Offices (Hours of Service)

asked the Postmaster-General how far he is proceeding with the shortening of the hours in rural post-offices; if it will entail a later delivery of letters in the morning; if he has considered the probable effects in the interests of farmers, especially of small holders; and how far it will affect the possibilities of labouring men making deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank?

The hours for public business at rural post offices are, as far as possible, being arranged to cover periods ranging from eight hours to 12 hours a day, according to the importance of the business transacted. It was the view of the Parliamentary Committee which dealt with the question that the small rural post offices should not be open for the transaction of postal business for more than eight hours a day. The restriction in no way affects the time of the delivery of letters by postmen. I have no reason to think that the alterations made will appreciably affect the interests of farmers, or of labouring men desirous of making deposits in the savings bank; but I shall be glad to consider any case of alleged difficulty or disadvantage that may be brought to my notice.

Burial Ground, Tynemouth

asked the Attorney-General whether he is aware that in a recent enfranchisement by the Tynemouth Corporation under the Lands Clauses Acts of copyhold land, part of the manor of Tynemouth, and acquired for the purposes of a burial ground, the claim of the lord of the manor was £2,079 16s., whilst the total amount paid annually in rents was only £2 2s. 7½d.; whether he is aware that, although the total sum awarded to the lord of the manor was less than half the sum claimed—viz., £792—yet the whole of the costs of the arbitration was borne by the Corporation under section 34 of the Lands Clauses Act, 1845; and whether he will take steps to secure such an alteration in the law so that in all similar cases of compulsory enfranchisement of copyhold land the matter of the costs shall be left to the discretion of the arbitrator?

I am informed that the statements in my hon. Friend's question are substantially correct. The Corporation were, I understand, advised not to make any formal offer to the lord of the manor for the settlement of his claim. They therefore became liable for all costs of and incident to the arbitration under section 34 of the Lands Clauses Act, 1845. I am not able to give my hon. Friend any promise of legislation in the direction he desires.

Registrar of Deeds (East Riding of Yorkshire)

asked the Attorney-General whether he is aware that the office of Registrar of Deeds for the East Riding of Yorkshire has been vacant since December, 1908, and that a statutory duty of appointing a duly qualified successor is imposed by The Yorkshire Registries Act, 1884, upon the East Riding County Council; whether he is aware that the attention of the East Riding County Council has been already directed by the Local Government Board to their neglect in discharging their statutory duty; and whether, in view of this continued neglect to discharge such duty, he will take steps by legislation or otherwise to transfer the power of appointment to another quarter?

This matter appears to be within the jurisdiction of my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, and I must refer my hon. Friend to his answer on 4th May last to the same question. I may add that a Bill proposing to amend the Yorkshire Registries Act, 1884, upon the East Riding of Registrar of Deeds to be performed by a county council official at a greatly diminished cost is now before the House of Lords, and the whole question will be considered by the Government in connection with that Bill. Under these circumstances, I do not propose to introduce another Bill for the purpose suggested in the question.

Immingham Dock Works

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a village of privately-owned huts built to accommodate the navvies employed upon the Immingham dock works, near Grimsby; whether he has caused any investigation to be made as to the sanitary arrangements provided for this village; and if so, what is the nature of the report he has received upon the subject?

My attention has been called to this village, which was visited by one of the medical inspectors of the Local Government Board in April last. The inspector states that the village has an abundant supply of water, and that the sanitary accommodation is of a satisfactory type and adequate in amount. The drain- age of the huts is reported to be good, but the arrangements for the disposal of the sewage are not so satisfactory. A sufficient remedy for this, however, could only be effected by means of a scheme of sewerage and sewage disposal which would probably cost several thousand pounds.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform me whether the report contained information to the effect that there was an open sewer within a few paces of those huts?

I intend to have an interview with the inspector who made this report, and in the event of the sewage disposal not being as satisfactory as it should be we shall probably have to take further action.

Baggot Estate Timber (County Galway)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if his Department has purchased the timber on the Baggot estate, county Galway, from the Estates Commissioners for the purpose of promoting Irish forestry; and, if so, will he state what is intended to be done in the matter?

The purchase of the woods on the Baggot estate, county Galway, is at present the subject of negotiation between the Department and the Estates Commissioners. The negotiations are on the point of completion, and the woods will be vested in the Department as Trustee for the nation under the Land Purchase Act, 1903.

Sale of Margarine as Irish Butter

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether the officials of the Department have recently been engaged sampling sales of Irish butter in several of the large centres of population in Great Britain; whether the samples have been submitted for analysis; and with what result?

One hundred and fifteen test samples sold as Irish butter were obtained in London and Liverpool by the Department's officers, and were submitted for analysis. The analyst reported that only 22 of the samples were genuine butter.

What steps have the Department taken to stop this increasing fraud in this country—a fraud both on the producers of butter and on those to whom the margarine is sold as butter?

The administration of the Food and Drugs Act is in the hands of the local authority, and not in the hands of the Department, but the Department have sent a special officer to England and Scotland for two years past, and they are doing their best by prosecutions to bring the offenders to justice.

Have any prosecutions been ordered by the Department in consequence of the result of the analysis of this substance sold for butter?

I am not able to answer that question off-hand. There are several prosecutions going on in England at the present time. I am not sure whether the margarine prosecutions are among the number.

Has the right hon. Gentleman brought under the notice of the Local Government Board the fact that. out of 115 samples of alleged butter submitted for analysis 93 were found to consist entirely of margarine, and can he say whether the Local Government Board would not take any action on the matter?

I beg to give notice that on this day fortnight I will ask what and how many prosecutions have been instituted in consequence of the systematic fraud that has been practised in this matter.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. Has he brought these facts under the notice of the Local Government Board?

I do not know about the Local Government Board, but I am quite sure that we are in communication with the local councils.

When questions are addressed in this House to the Local Government Board we are referred to the Board of Agriculture for England, and when they are asked of the Board of Agriculture for England we are referred to the Local Government Board. We can get information from neither.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how these frauds were perpetrated with impunity?

Charge of Loitering (Glasgow)

asked the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Miss Jessie Brown, a resident of Glasgow, who was arrested on the evening of Saturday, 28th December, 1907, by two constables in plain clothes and conveyed to the Southern police court and brought before a baillie there on 30th December and convicted of a charge of loitering about in Bridge-street and South Portland-street, Glasgow, and importuning five men for the purpose of prostitution; and whether the Lord Advocate has, after investigation, satisfied himself that the charge and conviction which followed thereon were both unwarranted?

My attention was directed to this case some time ago. Although the accused was convicted no punishment was imposed by the magistrate. She was simply admonished and liberated. Subsequently she was advised that if she desired to have the conviction quashed her proper course was to adopt proceedings in the High Court. This course, I am informed, she declined to follow. It is still open to her, and, if adopted, would, I understand, meet with no opposition from the criminal authorities in Glasgow. It would, in these circumstances, be improper for me to express any opinion upon the question whether or not her conviction was unwarranted.

They are very small, and it is entirely in the hands of the court whether the applicant will receive them or not.

Is the hon. Member aware that this poor person has already taken legal proceedings, and has been non-suited upon a technicality; and is it a fact that evidence, medical and otherwise, has been already adduced that this poor woman is absolutely innocent of the charge altogether?

I am not aware of that. I am aware that there has been some evidence, but whether it is sufficient to warrant what my hon. Friend says I am not in a position to say. That will be entirely for the court when the case comes before them.

Teaching in Mountain Districts

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware of the difficulty experienced by the inhabitants of remote mountain and moorland districts, where roads are bad, in sending their children a considerable distance to school; and whether he will consider the advisability of taking steps to give power to education authorities to send teachers to such children at their homes or to make the parents an allowance towards the cost of providing teaching for the children at their homes?

I am aware of the difficulties referred to. The remedy suggested by my hon. Friend would require legislation, which I cannot undertake at present to initiate. There may, however, be other remedies, which are under my consideration.

Committee of Imperial Defence (Sub-head E, Treasury Vote)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now state when the discussion on Sub-head E of the Treasury Vote will be taken?

I am not at present in a position to say when this Vote will be taken.

Australian "Dreadnought."

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Labour Ministry of the Australian Commonwealth while in office decided not to offer a "Dreadnought" to the Imperial Government but to consider a scheme for the defence of Australia insteads: that the Labour Party, now in opposition, is of the same mind still; that public opinion outside of Parliament, as represented by the Press and public meetings, is also much divided on the question; and whether, under these circumstances, His Majesty's Government will delay a final acceptance of the proffered "Dreadnought" until the opinion of the electors on the question has been authoritatively made known by a general election?

No, Sir; the form in which the generous offer made by the Government of the Commonwealth will be finally accepted by His Majesty's Gov- ernment will depend upon the friendly and confidential discussion at the forthcoming Conference.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in reply to the last part of my question, say whether His Majesty's Government will delay a final acceptance of the proffered "Dreadnought" until the opinion of the electors on the question has been made known authoritatively by a general election?

No, Sir. The communication came to us from the Government of the Commonwealth, and from them alone.

House of Commons (Proposed Adjournment in August)

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the time which the work of the Session must necessarily consume, he will consider the expediency of adjourning the House during the month of August, and resuming business so soon thereafter as may be deemed necessary?

This is an attractive, though, I fear, not a practical proposal.

Grocers' Off-Licences (Assessments)

asked whether the holder of a grocer's off-licence, who has sub-let a portion of his premises to the Post Office or to some other tenant, will be assessed under the Finance Bill upon the whole of such premises for the purpose of licence duty?

If a portion of the premises is sub-let so as not to be in the occupation of the holder of the grocer's off-licence, that portion would not be taken into account for the purpose of ascertaining the annual value for licence duty.

Income Tax on Ground Rents

asked, as regards liability to pay Income Tax in the first instance, whether in England the claim is made upon the lessee of the owner of a ground rent or upon the owner; whether in Scotland the claim is made upon the person bound to pay feu duty or upon the person entitled to the feu duty; and whether there are any differences in the mode of collecting this tax in the two countries?

Both in England and Scotland the general practice is to obtain the Income Tax applicable to ground rents and feu duties by way of deduction made by the persons liable to pay such rents or duties. There are, however, in each country certain instances in which, owing to the payer of the ground rent or feu duty being personally entitled to total exemption, it has been found convenient to collect the tax on the ground rent or feu duty direct from the recipient.

Income Tax Abatement Claims

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that in an official form, No. 11 E, some assessors of Income Tax have stated that exemption and abatement can be obtained only by signing a form of declaration sent therewith, and giving a full statement of income from every source on page 3 of the Form of Return; and whether this statement is correct, or if a claim for exemption or abatement may be made at any time within three years of the end of the year for which the tax is charged by a person aggrieved who has appealed at the proper time?

If relief is to be given at the time of assessment, it is necessary that the particulars mentioned in Form 11 E should be furnished, but a claim for exemption or abatement by way of repayment can be made within three years.

Increase of Inland Revenue Staff

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that increases in the staff will be required in the Inland Revenue Department as a result of the provisions of the Finance Bill, he will arrange that a number of the forthcoming vacancies be filled by the appointment of officers of Customs and Excise made redundant by the amalgamation of these two services; or, if not, what immediate steps he proposes to take in order to restore the natural flow of promotion in the outdoor branches of the Customs and Excise Department.

As regards the question whether increases will have to be made in the staff of the Inland Revenue in connection with the Budget proposals, I must refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 5th ultimo to the hon. Member for the Barkston Ash Division. While the absorption of redundant officers in the public service, so far as they might be suitable, would be an important consideration in arranging for an increase in the staff of any Department, it would obviously be premature for me to arrive at a decision upon a matter of this kind until the Finance Bill has become law.

Proposed New Road Authority

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what he based his estimate that a grant of £600,000 to the proposed new road authority would cause a relief of 4d. in the pound in the rates; and what proportion of the £600,000 will in fact go to relieve the rates of ordinary expenditure on road maintenance, and what proportion to extraordinary expenditure for the improvement of roads in the interests of motorists?

The hon. Member has misunderstood what I said on this subject in the House on the 9th instant. I did not state that the relief likely to accrue to landlords under my proposals, which I estimated as equivalent to a remission of 4d. in the £ in the rates on agricultural land, would be due solely to the expenditure of £600,000 on the improvement of the roads; but I included in this estimate the saving which will be derived from the operation of the pension proposals of the Government. I explained in my Budget speech that the whole revenue derived from the new taxes on motor cars and motor spirit will be devoted to the improvement of the roads, subject to the control of a central authority. I do not propose that this money should be spent upon ordinary road maintenance, but it is none the less clear that it will result in a considerable saving to local authorities, who would otherwise be compelled to undertake—as I understand they have already done and are doing in many districts—costly improvements with a special view to motor traffic.

School Attendance (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he was now prepared to consider the measure for the improvement and amendment of the law regulating school attendance in Ireland; and if he was prepared to support a Bill dealing with the subject?

I am always prepared to consider any measure for the improve- ment of education in Ireland, but I am by no means convinced that it would now be expedient to extend the provisions for compulsory attendance at schools in Ireland, and particularly until some agreement has been come to as to their proper cleansing and heating.

Rates Due on Land (Galway)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he was aware that the Galway County Council at the present moment are unable to collect rates due on land, purchased by Estates Commissioners and divided amongst tenants, in at least 10 townlands in consequence of the valuation not having been revised at the time of division, and that under the present system two years' rates will become due, together with arrears, before rates can be collected; and will he make such alteration as may be necessary, so that the rates may be collected in such cases without entailing loss to the county?

I understand that the facts are as stated. Under the existing law the Commissioner of Valuation has power to issue revised valuation lists once a year only, namely, on or before 1st March, and the lists for revision must be forwarded to him by the local authorities in the previou sJune. The Commissioner has a certain discretion as to accepting supplemental lists, and he informs me that in the case of county Galway the period for lodging cases for revision has been extended to the utmost limit. The difficulty in this and similar cases is due to the interval which must elapse between the date on which the tenant purchasers came into occupation of the lands and the time when the revised valuation can be officially brought into the rate books. I have no power to alter the procedure which is prescribed by law.

Labourers' Allotments (Kerry)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will ask the Estates Commissioners to have a further inspection of Mr. John Creagh Harnett's farm, at Knocknacrohy, near Abbeyfeale, county Kerry, with a view of enlarging uneconomic holdings and giving allotments to the labourers of the district; whether he is aware that Mr. Harnett is willing to sell; and whether, in view of the congestion in the district, the Estates Commissioners will do what they can to secure Mr. Harnett's farm?

The Estates Commissioners intimated to Mr. Harnett the price which they would be prepared to advance for the lands if sold to them, but he was unwilling to sell at such price, and has not instituted proceedings for sale under the Irish Land Act, 1903. The Commissioners cannot see their way to increase their price Dr to have a further inspection made.

Is it not a fact that this is a largely congested district, and that there is a large number of uneconomic holdings, and in view of that will he say whether they will reconsider their action with a view to securing this farm?

The only way they could secure the farm is by an increased price, and they are not disposed to give that.

Is it not a fact that in other districts the Estates Commissioners have not only agreed to an increased price, but have also allowed a considerable amount for fines?

Yeomanry Regiments (Recruiting)

asked the Secretary of State for War if commanding officers of Yeomanry regiments were invited by letter from the War Office, at the time when recruiting was proceeding slowly last year, to recruit above their strength, and that subsequently those who responded to the appeal were told that they could not bring out for training those who have been enlisted beyond the strength?

No such letter was circulated last year by the War Office. Perhaps the hon. Member is alluding to a circular letter of last March, which authorised Territorial units to enlist recruits above establishment in order to provide for possible losses arising from discharges among those who enlisted in the Territorial Force for one year only. The letter, however, laid down clearly that such men so long as they were supernumerary were not to be allowed to attend the annual training in camp.

Quartermasters and Ridingmasters (Retiring Allowance)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can hold out any hopes of an increase in the retiring allowance of quartermasters and riding masters holding the rank of major?

Welsh Church Disestablishment Bill

I beg to ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister whether he is now prepared to say what course the Government propose to take with regard to the Welsh Church Disestablishment Bill?

Yes, Sir, I am. In view of the pressure of business this Session, the Government have come to the conclusion that it will be impossible to carry through all its stages so highly contentious a measure as the Welsh Church Disestablishment Bill, and they have, therefore, decided to make the Bill the first Government measure and to pass it through all its stages (in this House) next year.

Finance Bill

For the convenience of the House, can the Prime Minister make any statement as to what he proposes to do with the Budget? It is down for Monday, and I believe I am right in understanding that it is intended to proceed with it on that day. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will say whether that is so or not? I also wish to know whether it is intended to proceed with the Bill de die in diem, and, if that be the intention, whether it is proposed to take the Bill on the Thursdays as well as on the earlier days of the week? If I may be permitted to explain, I ask that question because I saw in the papers a statement, which professed to be authoritative, that the Government are going to take it four days a week.

No; there is no authority for any such statement. I would rather defer, if the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, making a general statement on the subject until Thursday, as is customary.

That is the present intention. I will make a general statement on Thursday.

NEW MEMBER SWORN.—Thomas Lundon, esq., for the county of Limerick (Eastern Division).

Presentation of Bills

The following Bills were presented and read the first time:—

Mr. JOHN WARD—Shop Clubs.—Bill to amend The Shop Clubs Act, 1902. (To be read a second time 9th July.)

Mr. HILLS—Conveyancing.—Bill to amend The Conveyancing and Law of Property Act, 1881. (To be read a second time 28th June.)

Mr. HILLS—Settled Land.—Bill to amend the Settled Land Acts, 1882 to 1890. (To be read a second time 28th June.)

Mr. T. W. Russell—Fisheries (Ireland).—Bill to amend the Fisheries (Ireland) Acts,

1842 to 1901. (To be read a second time upon Tuesday, 22nd June.)

Business of the House

Irish Land Bill (Allocation of Time)

moved, "That the proceedings on the Motion for the Allocation of Time for the Irish Land Bill, if under discussion at Eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."

Question put.

The House divided: Ayes, 259; Noes. 66.

Division No. 163.]

AYES.

[3.40 P.M.

Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

Crosfield, A. H.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Crossley, William J.

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Cullinan, J.

Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)

Agnew, George William

Curran, Peter Francis

Higham, John Sharp

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Dalziel, Sir James Henry

Hobart, Sir Robert

Alden, Percy

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Hogan, Michael

Ambrose, Robert

Delany, William

Holland, Sir William Henry

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Devlin, Joseph

Holt, Richard Durning

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Hooper, A. G.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.)

Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.)

Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Horniman, Emslie John

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Hudson, Walter

Barnes, G. N.

Dillon, John

Hyde, Clarendon G.

Barran, Sir John Nicholson

Donelan, Captain A.

Jardine, Sir J.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Jenkins, J.

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Beale, W. P.

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Beck, A. Cecil

Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Jordan, Jeremiah

Bennett, E. N.

Elibank, Master of

Jowett, F. W.

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Erskine, David C.

Joyce, Michael

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Black, Arthur W.

Essex, R. W.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Boland, John

Esslemont, George Birnie

Lamont, Norman

Boulton, A. C. F.

Everett, R. Lacey

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Bright, J. A.

Falconer, J.

Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Fenwick, Charles

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Ferens, T. R.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Bryce, J. Annan

Ffrench, Peter

Lundon, T.

Burns, Rt. Hon John

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Lupton, Arnold

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Flynn, James Christopher

Lyell, Charles Henry

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter

Lynch, H. B.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles

Fuller, John Michael F.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Byles, William Pollard

Fullerton, Hugh

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Furness, Sir Christopher

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Chance, Frederick William

Gibb, James (Harrow)

Maclean, Donald

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Ginnell, L.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.)

M'Callum, John M.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Glendinning, R. G.

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Clancy, John Joseph

Glover, Thomas

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Cleland, J. W.

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

M'Micking, Major G.

Clough, William

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Mallet, Charles E.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Gulland, John W.

Marnham, F. J.

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry)

Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Massie, J.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Cooper, G. J.

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester)

Meagher, Michael

Corbett, C. H (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

Harrington, Timothy

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Hart-Davies, T.

Menzies, Walter

Cowan, W. H.

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Cox, Harold

Haworth, Arthur A.

Mooney, J. J.

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Hayden, John Patrick

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Crean, Eugene

Hazel, Dr. A. E. W.

Morrell, Philip

Crooks, William

Helme, Norval Watson

Morse, L. L.

Muldoon, John

Reddy, M.

Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

Murnaghan, George

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Murphy, John (Kerry, East)

Rees, J. D.

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.)

Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Myer, Horatio

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Nicholls, George

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Tomkinson, James

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Norton, Captain Cecil William

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Verney, F. W.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Roche, Augustine (Cork)

Walters, John Tudor

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Rose, Charles Day

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Wedgwood. Josiah C.

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Whitbread, S. Howard

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Rutherford, V. H (Brentford)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Whitehead, Rowland

Philips, John (Longford, S.)

Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)

Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth)

Pointer, J.

Seely, Colonel

Williamson, A.

Pollard, Dr. G. H.

Sheehy, David

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Simon, John Allsebrook

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Puller, Sir Robert

Soares, Ernest J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr.

Radford, G. H.

Stanger, H. Y.

Joseph Pease and Mr. J. Herbert Lewis.

Rainy, A. Rolland

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

NOES.

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Morpeth, Viscount

Ashley, W. W.

Du Cros Arthur

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Balcarres, Lord

Fardell, Sir T. George

Oddy, John James

Baldwin, Stanley

Fell, Arthur

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

Gardner, Ernest

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Gretton, John

Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Sandys, Col. Thos. Myles

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Hamilton, Marquess of

Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

Snowden, P.

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Stanier, Beville

Carlile, E. Hildred

Heaton, John Henniker

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hills, J. W.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)

Kerry, Earl of

Thornton, Percy M.

Chaplin. Rt. Hon. Henry

Kimber, Sir Henry

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Clyde, J. Avon

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Younger, George

Craik, Sir Henry

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.)

Cross, Alexander

Lowe, Sir Francis William

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir

Dickson, Rt. Hon. Charles Scott-

Magnus, Sir Philip

A. Acland-Hood and Mr. H. W. Forster.

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Frederick Dixon

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Doughty, Sir George

Town Planning Bill

(Allocation of Time.)

"That the Committee stage (including any Motion for an Instruction), Report stage, and Third Reading of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Bill shall be proceeded with as follows:— the day, and then proceeded with; provided that 5 p.m. shall be substituted for 10.30 p.m., and 2.30 p.m. for 7.30 p.m. as respects any allotted day which is a Friday.

"For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion on an allotted day, and have not previously been brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Speaker shall, at the time appointed under this Order for the conclusion of those proceedings, put forthwith the Question on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments, new clauses, or schedules moved by the Government of which notice has been given, but no other Amendments, new clauses, or schedules, and on any Question necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded, and in the case of Government Amendments or of Government new clauses or schedules he shall put only the Question that the Amendment be made or that the clause or schedule be added to the Bill, as the case may be; and on the Committee stage of the Bill the Chairman, in the case of a series of clauses to which no notice of Amendment has been given by the Government, shall put the Question that those clauses stand part of the Bill without putting the Question separately as respects each clause.

"Any Private Business which is set down for consideration at 8.15 p.m. on any allotted day shall, instead of being taken on that day, as provided by the Standing Order 'Time for taking Private Business,' be taken after the conclusion of the proceedings on the Bill or under this Order for that day, and any Private Business so taken may be proceeded with, though opposed, notwithstanding any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House.

"On any day on which any proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion under this Order, proceedings for that purpose under this Order shall not be interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House.

"On an allotted day no dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor Motion to re-commit the Bill, nor Motion that the Chairman do leave the Chair, nor Motion for Adjournment under Standing Order 10, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be received unless moved by the Government, and the Question on such Motion shall be put forthwith without any debate, and if an Instruction is moved a brief speech from the Mover and from the Minister in charge of the Bill shall be permitted, and thereafter Mr. Speaker shall, without further debate, put the Question thereon.

"Nothing in this Order shall:—

It is proposed by the Resolution to allot two more days to the Committee stage, in addition to the 23 already given, and one day to Report. In the Committee stage, if the Resolution is adopted in the form proposed by the Government, the portion of the Bill relating to housing will he taken on the first day, and the remainder on the second, with a further Division, as the House will observe, on both days at 7.30. The Bill contains 73 clauses and six schedules, and on 29 of those 73 clauses and on one out of the six schedules no notice has been given of any Amendment at all. The Paper at present contains notices of 364 Amendments, but of those 200, or nearly two-thirds, are similar to or identical with Amendments put down in Standing Committee last year, most of which were fully discussed. By far the largest number of the Amendments relate to clause 30, which provides for the establishment of a quinquennial survey and register throughout the country of dwelling houses below a prescribed rental. The allocation of time is so arranged that this clause, which was inserted in Committee against the view of the Government by 20 votes to 17, will be first discussed in Committee at 7.30 on the first day. In allocating the time it has been arranged, as far as practicable, that clauses which excite most interest shall come up for discussion. As regards the Government, they have put down 18 Amendments and three new clauses. Most of the Amendments do not relate to contentious matters. The most important of them are proposed to remove objections, their object being to prevent the clauses from working hardship. With regard to the new clauses proposed by the Government, the first two, which relate to ancient monuments and commons and open spaces, are inserted to meet objections, and are practically agreed; while the third merely requires that the Commissioner of Works shall be consulted where land in the neighbourhood of Royal palaces or parks is proposed to be dealt with under the Bill.

In these circumstances, the Government think that the time which they propose is a reasonable time for the further discussion and final disposal of the measure. As I have already pointed out, it has been no less than 23 days before a Standing Committee, at which, I think, most of the experts on this matter were present. ["No."] I said "most," not "all." At any rate, it has been subjected to 23 days' most searching inquiry; and the Government feel that in the additional time proposed by this Resolution there will be ample opportunity to deal with any points which may have been left over, and that the Bill—as to the merits and urgency of which there is general agreement in all quarters of the House—will then be in a fit state to go to the House of Lords to be further considered. On these grounds I ask the House to assent to the Resolution, which I now move.

moved to leave out from the word "That" (in the first line of the Motion) to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "having regard to the demands made by the Finance Bill and other necessary measures upon the time of Parliament, this House declines to allocate further time to Bills which cannot be adequately discussed."

In protesting as a matter of principle against the employment of the guillotine, I confess that we on this side of the House are a little exasperated to have these proposals brought forward repeatedly Session after Session by the Prime Minister without any explantion of any kind as to whether he has altered the views which he expressed so pointedly and so repeatedly in the last Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman never tells us that the views that he then expressed with so much force were formed with insufficient consideration of the requirements of public business. It would be much easier to forget the observations which the right hon. Gentleman made, but we must not forget them. Nobody ever protested with more vigour, with more effectiveness, than the right hon. Gentleman did upon the use of the guillotine. I do not propose to consume the time of the House by any protracted reference to the speeches which the right hon. Gentleman then made, but there is one passage which I venture to think the House of Commons cannot let the right hon. Gentleman forget until he has either recanted or withdrawn it. It is what I may call the locus classicus of the protest which the then Opposition thought proper to make against the use of the guillotine, and it was on the proposals for the employment of the guillotine which my right hon. Friend brought forward in connection with the Licensing Bill. What the Prime Minister said then as to the use of the guillotine applies equally to any other measure, so far as objection to its employment on principle is concerned. The right hon. Gentleman said then, speaking on the Motion of my right hon. Friend in front of me:— place, I desire to make a few observations on its relation to the remaining commitments of the Session, and the consequent possible duration of the Session. As the right hon. Gentleman has informed the House, under this Resolution we are invited to allot two days for the consideration of this Bill in Committee, one day for the Report stage and one for the third reading stage. I do not dispute at all that the Bill may have many admirable points, and that the second reading may have been passed, as I understand it to have been, without opposition. But it is also admitted that there are innumerable points of detail in the Bill upon which competent critics differ very widely indeed. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that there are 73 clauses and six schedules. That many of these clauses are extremely controversial is shown by the fact that there are no fewer than 27 pages of Amendments. The right hon. Gentleman has pointed out that these Amendments are confined—I think he said—to about 20 or 30 clauses of the Bill. That, no doubt, may be so, but it only shows, of course, how highly controversial those clauses of the Bill are to which the 27 pages of Amendments relate.

I do not imagine that any of those on the Government Benches will suggest that these Amendments are either dilatory or brought forward in the main with a lack of good faith, having regard to the fact that on a rough calculation I think it will be found that at least 50 per cent. proceed from habitual supporters of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman in recommending this Resolution to the House dwelt largely on the number of days that the Bill had been under consideration by the Standing Committee upstairs. I should really like to ask the right hon. Gentlemen seriously what answer that is to the Members of this House, who are interested in the measure, and who were not given the opportunity to serve on the Committee upstairs? What answer might I ask is that to the faithful supporters of the right hon. Gentleman, who themselves are responsible for about 13 pages of the Amendments. A very limited number of Members had an opportunity for 22 days of discussing this Bill upstairs, and I do not precisely accept the point of view that because for 22 days this Bill has been discussed upstairs that the House of Commons as a whole has cut itself adrift from its right to examine and criticise the details of an extremely important measure like this. Let me call the attention of the House to one or two points which shows the complete inadequacy of the proposals made by the right hon. Gentleman. Take, for instance, clauses 10, 30, and 60 of the Bill. These clauses are strongly opposed by the Association of Municipal Corporations, an Association which, the right hon. Gentleman is well aware, represents almost every considerable municipality in the Kingdom, or at any rate a very large number of them. They entertain the strongest objections to these 3 clauses, and they have sent to me, as, I dare say, they have to other Members of the House, a memorandum of considerable length setting forth the ground of their objections. I take another illustration: that is the application of the Act to Scotland. That application, as the House is probably aware, is proposed by clause 52 of the Bill. Will it be believed that clauses 30 to 52 are to be discussed between half-past seven and half-past ten on the first alloted day? There are some contentious clauses between 30 and 51; in fact there are several contentious clauses. The hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow (Mr. Cleland), a supporter of the Government, has down a later Amendment, a very important Amendment, on the subject of Scotland. It is as certain as anything can be, judging from previous experiences of the guillotine, that these proposals, which apply to Scotland, and which many well-informed Scotchmen believe, had no applicability at all to Scotland, will not be discussed in the House of Commons at all. It is extremely doubtful whether the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Glasgow will ever reached. The language of ordinary eulogy fails to do justice to the meekness of Scottish Liberal Members in face of this! I would ask the House seriously, is there another section of the House, except the Welsh Members, who would stand it?

I claim shortly to have shown that the time allotted to the proposals are ludicrously inadequate to proper discussion, considering the whole per se, and in discussing in any way the other commitments of the Session. The House of Commons cannot possibly devote itself to a question of this kind without asking what other obligations there are. Are the other demands upon our time of such a character as to make it reasonable that we should now allocate time, an inadequate time, to the consideration of a measure of this importance? I desire, if the House will permit me, to make an observation upon that point, in order that the House may be in a position to take stock of the position in which we stand at this time of the Session. I desire to make very short observations on the commitments of the Session, and the probable duration of the Session, in order that we may consider the due relation of the whole of the work which we have to do, and to see if the request which the right hon. Gentleman makes in the House at the present time is really a reasonable one. I venture to commence this consideration by laying down a proposition that, except under circumstances of extreme emergency, the Government is ill-advised in keeping the House sitting during the summer months. Many Members of the House have families, and the younger members of them are rapidly ceasing to be known by their fathers, even by sight! But I would prefer to rest upon what was said by the late Prime Minister, who had a very long experience of the House of Commons. He always approached these subjects—I do not suggest that the right hon. Gentleman does not do the same—with a generous consideration for the comfort and convenience of the Members of the House. On 18th June this very question was under discussion by the House, and the late Prime Minister said:— conclude our labours till December. I wonder how many Members who are asked to vote for the Resolution realise what there is still to be done in this Session; what labours still lie in front of us, altogether excluding the Finance Bill from consideration? That is a very material point before the House. I will venture to submit to the better judgment of the House that I have in no way exaggerated the amount of time which will be necessary for the proposals to which I have directed attention. In the first place there still remains, I think I am accurate in saying, 12 days of Supply. There is the Appropriation Bill, for which two days will be necessary, the Indian Budget one day, various Private Bills two days, Irish Land Bill 11 days, Housing and Town Planning Bill three days, Status of the Board of Trade Bill one day, the present guillotine Resolutions one day, the Labour Exchanges Bill two days, the London Elections Bill three days, the Trade Boards Bill one day, third reading of Miners Bill one day, and I have put down Consideration of Lords Amendments Bill two days, South African Constitution one day. I have taken no account of the Milk Bill, though it has not been formally dropped, and there is a general desire that it should be carried. Many Members of the House think it more important than some of the Bills which are to be proceeded with, but yet I have not reckoned it in my calculations—that is 43 Parliamentary Bills irrespective of the Budget, and will take us exactly up to 12th August. Well now there remains, of course, the Development Bill and the Finance Bill. It is a little difficult exactly to say what demand will be made upon the time of the House by the Development Bill. It is very comparable in scope and length to the Bill which was introduced last year and carried for the purpose of setting up machinery for old age pensions. That Bill was taken through by closure in compartments, the time being allotted in the following manner: One day second reading, five days in Committee, one day for Report and one for third reading. That is eight days in all. I do not think anyone would suppose that the Development Bill can be disposed of in less than six days. That will bring us to 19th August, and the House will be further detained with the Budget and its great financial problems for a very long period of time. I think it is right that we should ask the Government how long the Finance Bill will take, and what view they have formed upon the matter. I suppose it would not be in order to discuss the Finance Bill except from the point of view of its probable duration in connection with the proposals which are now brought forward by the Government.

The only similar measure—that is, the Death Duties Budget of Sir W. Harcourt—occupied in Committee 22 days, six days on Report, and one day on third reading, making 29 days altogether. It had only 42 clauses and three schedules, as compared with 74 clauses and six schedules of the present Budget, so that the present Financial Bill of the Government is twice as long and at least five times as contentious as the Budget of the late Sir William Harcourt. I do not suppose anyone will deny that the land clauses of the present Budget are as likely to be as troublesome as the whole of the Budget of Sir W. Harcourt. His Budget was accepted by the Liberal party, but 20 or 30 Liberal Members are already combined resisting the land clauses of the present Finance Bill, a circumstance which in itself is likely to occupy a very considerable time. We cannot avoid the knowledge that this Bill is not primarily a Finance Bill. It is a sort of political hodge-podge which involves the consideration of a very large number of subjects and half-a-dozen imperfectly-digested schemes of social reform. I do not ask the House to accept that from me. One of the Liberal Whips (the Master of Elibank), the Member for Peebles and Selkirk, made an observation some nights ago that offers some guidance on the subject. He said:— deal with the dissatisfaction among their own supporters? Hon. Members who sit opposite have been met with the intimation that so far as they are concerned the Whips are trying to secure for them some alleviation of the labours. They were asked four questions—first, "Are you willing to attend the House of Commons until the end of September"; second, "Are you desirous of taking a holiday during the month of July";—speaking for myself, I have no difficulty in answering that question—third, "If desirous of taking a month's holiday, are you prepared to divide it, and to take one fortnight in July and another in August"; fourth, "Or in the alternative, are you prepared to take one fortnight in August and another in September?" These are very singular proposals to be made to the supporters of the Government. I can only suppose that the explanation is to be found in some observations made by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer when he was in Opposition, and made, no doubt, in anticipation of the duties he was about to be called upon to discharge. He said a short time ago:— efficiency and dignity of the House of Commons? I venture to say that the demands which the Prime Minister has attempted to make upon the House of Commons are wholly unreasonable. They are justified by nothing in the nature of urgency in the particular proposals. They are condemned by the fact that they do not afford to the House of Commons adequate time for the discussion of the Bill, which is to be discussed under them, and they are condemned by the circumstance that the proposals themselves are brought forward without the slightest consideration to the commitments and obligations of the Session. In the belief that these proposals ought not to be accepted by the House of Commons, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.

In rising to second the Amendment which has just been moved, I am glad to confess that I go rather further than the hon. Member in connection with this guillotine closure. I am one of those sufficiently old-fashioned to believe that we have not arrived at a better position in this matter since the speech of the right hon. Gentleman allocating time under guillotine closure last year. As long as the Government brought forward these proposals with apology and regret, and as long as they were answered by strong opposition on the part of the Front Bench, there was some hope at all events that a less crude method of carrying on business might be devised, and we might have hoped both Front Benches would join in trying to find a better solution than that which is now before us. So far as I am concerned, I hope private Members, apart from the Front Benches, will oppose this guillotine Motion, and we may find in the future House of Commons a better understanding of this question, and at all events a better means of accomplishing our business than the means suggested by this guillotine Motion. Could we possibly arrive at a more pitiable position than that in which we are placed on the present occasion?

Here is a Bill, acknowledged to be of a non-party character, discussed by all parties in the House with the desire to find a solution on an extremely difficult problem, and we are here to-day discussing a Resolution providing that the whole of that Bill, on the first occasion that it comes before the House of Commons for consideration, should be disposed of in three Parliamentary days. It is even possible that some of these three Parliamentary days may be of a shorter time than the full Parliamentary days, and we may only get a truncated discussion on some Friday afternoon. I hope the Government, when they come to reply, will tell us that they do not intend that one of these days should be a Friday. We must remember that in reference to Bills like this, non-controversial and non-party, we are brought to this extreme method which was only used for extraordinary cases previous to this Parliament. Let us just look back a little upon the history of this subject, and from the Government point of view let us consider how far these guillotine Resolutions result in good legislation. That is an important point of view from the Parliamentary side, and it is important also for the country. It seems to me three results have followed from the adoption of this method. In the first place, it leads to slovenly legislation in this House. Everyone knows when a Bill goes through this House under guillotine Motion there is no object to induce the Government to keep discussion short in any way or to deal with the matter by necessary compromise, which is the foundation of legislation. They can allow the discussion to go on until the fatal hour comes, when they know all their clauses will be carried. Consequently we find that legislation passed under these circumstances is not of a satisfactory character, but is more slovenly than legislation carried by free discussion. My second point is one which I think every hon. Member opposite ought to deplore, because if we look at the history of this question we find that guillotine Resolutions only add to the prestige and strength of another House, and it cannot be denied even by supporters of the Government that the House of Lords has the right to discuss measures which have never been discussed properly in this House. But there is another, and a worse result. It used to be the admiration of our legislation in the past that, as successive parties held office, on the whole our legislation was left unaltered by the party which followed, but legislation passed under the guillotine is not of that satisfactory character which receives outside this House the authority which we desire all legislation should obtain. If we look at the 17 occasions upon which guillotine legislation has been passed I do not think the history of the legislation passed under those circumstances is altogether satisfactory. If we turn to the 17 Bills dealt with under closure Resolutions we find that eight of them have been rejected altogether and one of them was abandoned in the very House which passed the guillotine Resolution. Out of 17 attempts at legislation under the guillotine only three measures—the Territorials Bill, the Small Holdings Bill, and the Old Age Pensions Bill—received the Royal Assent as permanent legislation. Even from the Government point of view, no satisfaction can be got from the lessons of the past, and surely we ought to find a more satisfactory method of dealing with these great questions.

Of course, I know that a new procedure has arisen. There is a very strong inclination in regard to the legislation put forward at the present day to assume autocratic power for the Department which puts it forward. We are told that it is unnecessary for this House to indulge in legislation which comes from a Department which knows so very much more about the matter than the House itself. We had an instance of this in the problem of the old Poor Law, in which case we were told that it is much better not to waste the time of Parliament upon it, and that it should be handed over to the Local Government Board, which is ably presided over at the present time by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea (Mr. Burns), who also has charge of the particular Bill we are discussing to-day. We can, therefore, well understand that if he is willing to undertake the consideration of the whole Poor Law problem he is certainly well able to deal with this question without giving us more than three days. Therefore, we need not be altogether surprised at the extremely short time we have been allowed for this particular discussion. I think, however, we ought to look at this matter from a rather different point of view. We have often been told that it would be a very desirable process to adopt the system of carrying over Bills, and in this Resolution we see some attempt to adopt that principle without carrying it to its logical issue. The idea is that, having discussed a Bill on the Second Reading or in Committee upstairs in one Session, you are to come during another Session and say that, as the measure was discussed previously in the last Session, we must take all that work as done, and there is no need to go back upon it. Is the Government aware that if they adopt the carrying over principle it will be impossible to have guillotine Motions because the House will insist that each of those stages shall be complete in itself, and there ought to be no idea of reducing to a mere farcical limit the time allowed for the discussion of a great measure like this.

What is the proportion of Members of the Opposition who sat on the Grand Committee on this Bill? Our numerical power in this House is not at all in proportion to the numerical power we have outside the House. When we discuss a matter in Committee of the whole House we have the support of something like 160 Members, but our proportion on the Grand Committee is 16 members only, and that is the number who have represented the whole Opposition in the discussion of this Bill. Consequently, to those 16 hon. Members has been delegated the sole right of discussing an entirely new principle such as that which is embraced in this town-planning scheme. Whether you consider this question from the point of view of adequacy of time or from the point of view of an attempt to introduce the carrying-over principle, or whether you consider it as an unprecedented and a new extension of the guillotine Motion, I think the effort of the Government to apply to this Housing Bill the guillotine Motion, which in the past has been reserved for most extreme cases only, is quite a new precedent in this House, to which all private Members ought to raise the utmost objection. I beg to second the Amendment of my hon. Friend.

Question proposed: "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

:I wish to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to the position of the Amendments on the Paper relating to Scotland. This Bill is one which, I think, is very generally supported in my own country, as well as in England, and for my part I regard it as one of the greatest Bills which has been introduced of late years, and I am very anxious to see it passed into law. I am inclined to think, however, that it cannot pass without some such provision as that which is made in this Resolution. I would not mind that course so much, but this is a Bill drafted by an English Department, considered by a very English Committee upstairs, where it was adjusted to English requirements, and it was not until a very late stage in the Bill that any consideration at all was given to the Scottish case. We have had assurance from the late Lord Advocate (Lord Shaw) that there would be provision made for certain Scottish requirements, but it was left a little indefi- nite by the Secretary for Scotland as to how far those provisions would be carried out. The fly-wheel of the whole of this new machinery is the Local Government Board. In England you have an admirable Department in the Local Government Board, but in Scotland that is not so. It would be absurd to put great municipalities like Glasgow and Edinburgh under the Scottish Local Government Board. I think that is generally regarded as quite impossible, and we have not hitherto had any assurances that we shall have a properly equipped Department in Edinburgh to look after the interests of those great municipalities which are affected by this Bill. There are other Amendments which have been suggested by the Convention of Royal Burghs. I do not think there is anything analogous to that institution in England, but virtually it represents the whole of the self-governing urban communities in Scotland, and they have put forward Amendments, some of which stand in my name, although I am not quite sure that I agree with all of them. Some of those Amendments, at any rate, ought to have consideration. So far as I can judge from the time which will be allowed under this Resolution, the Scottish Amendments will be altogether ruled out. I do not think a long period would be required for their discussion, but, at any rate, some discussion ought to be allowed. I hope the Prime Minister will look into this matter himself in order to secure that the interests of Scotland are properly considered, more particularly in respect to the Local Government Board. I think we ought to have a most explicit understanding on that matter. I know this proposal will cost a good deal of money, and it will require a Department treble or quadruple its present size, which will have to be divided into other departments in order to deal with the great interests which will be submitted to it under this Bill. We ought to have either a discussion of these Scottish Amendments, or else we should be given adequate assurances that Scotland will not receive any injustice under this limiting Resolution.

I thoroughly disapprove of the whole of this system, because I am convinced that it is destructive of the legislative efficiency and dignity of this House. The House has merely got to consider the actual proposal which is now made in order to see what a farce it reduces legislative action in this House to. This is a proposal to pass through the House in three days, the Committee stage, the Report stage, and the Third Reading, of a Bill containing 73 clauses. Nobody can imagine that any real consideration can be given to this Bill under those circumstances. Not only are the interests of Scotland affected, but there are many other interests which feel deeply in regard to certain clauses of this Bill. I have myself been the recipient of a great protest from building societies, and I have just had a telegram from one of the Clyde trustees on the question raised by the hon. Member for Leith Burghs, who thought the Bill was giving too much power to the Local Government Board. Those are really important matters which merit the consideration of this House. If the Government decide that they are not going to allow those matters to be discussed it would be far better, and far more in accordance with the actual fact. It would be far better if they adopted the procedure which prevails in another place, and negatived the Committee stage altogether. Let the Government take their courage in both hands, and say what they mean. They ought not to give such a farcical opportunity of discussion. If they think the Bill ought not to be discussed in Committee, let them say boldly that it is not intended to be discussed, and that they think the Committee discussion last Session was sufficient. They might as well propose that there shall not be any Committee stage, and send the Bill up to the other House without any further discussion. That would be, at any rate, a genuine and a straightforward course to pursue, but I do think that the proceedings in reference to this Bill and in the case of one or two Bills last Session, particularly the Education Bill, shows to the House and to every private Member that this system of guillotine has reached a stage which, unless it is stopped, really must lead to the destruction of the legislative freedom of the House of Commons. I do feel most profoundly that something must be done to stop the guillotine system. I deeply regret that the Front Opposition Bench is not opposing these proposals. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are."] I do hope and trust that the Members of the front Opposition Bench will see their way to oppose this Motion, and make a real effort on behalf of the House as a whole to restore some measure of legislative dignity and self-respect to our deliberations. If the House will bear with me, I will recall the evils which have arisen. First of all there has been the loss of the corporate self-respect of this House. It is because the House does not take itself sufficiently seriously in this matter that Motions of this kind have become more or less excusable, but there is a second evil, and a very serious one, and I press it personally on the Prime Minister. It is the great burden imposed upon this House in general and particularly on private Members. I venture in this case to act as spokesmen for hon. Members opposite. The life of the private Member is really one which cannot be viewed without some measure of regret. He comes down in great numbers day after day. He is not allowed to take any part in legislation or in Debates. He is expected to sit here, or in the smoking room, or on the terrace for hours. That is what you ask gentlemen of education, and very often of considerable positions in their localities, to do, and you expect them to lead that kind of life for months every year. I am quite convinced that will not go on, and if it does go on you will find it difficult to fill this House with the kind of men that you desire—the kind of Legislature equal to the ruling of a great Empire like ours. It takes a long time for these things to travel outside of this House, but people in the end will find them out, and you will have very inferior kind of Members returned by the constituencies. I am convinced that one of the great evils of this state of things is this guillotine system. The Resolution affects the Committee stage, and it must be remembered that the Committee stage is the one in which the private Member has his opportunity. It is in the Committee stage when he can express his views to the Government, and it is in the Committee stage when he can make his influence felt, but under the guillotine system the whole of the Committee stage is destroyed.

It is essential we should tell the truth in this matter. The only reply to the guillotine system is obstruction, and the, result is that there is no discussion at all in the Committee stage. I have no doubt that Members on this side will obstruct. Discussion will be prevented, and the Government will not object, because obstruction will enable them to avoid difficulties. I do earnestly appeal to the Prime Minister to see whether some remedy cannot be found for this state of things. I myself desire to say that I believe some remedy can be found in the extension of the Grand Committee system. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] I know some hon. Members near me will not agree to that. I have sat on several Grand Committees, and I have come to the belief that, on the whole, they are the best instruments we possess for the discussion of legislative measures. The Whips have far less influence in the Grand Committees than in this House. That is all for the good. I do not desire to abolish party feeling, but I think it is being carried too far, and hon. Members should try to think for themselves. Finally, and this, I think, is the greatest of all the evils. Members who have not heard a speech in the course of a Debate, and who do not even know the subject under discussion, troop in during a Division from the outside, merely ask the Whips how they are to vote, and, without having the slightest knowledge of the subject under discussion, they vote as they are told. That sort of proceeding reduces the House of Commons Debates to a farce. That does not take place in a Grand Committee. Everybody there decides according to the weight of argument. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] Yes, they do. Even in this Parliament, with the gigantic majority which the Government have, we have several times in Grand Committees defeated the Government, and I think it has done them a great deal of good. It may be possible to extend the system of Grand Committees, but I am sure that the Grand Committee system mitigates the evils under which we are suffering, and something of that kind might be done to still further mitigate the evil, but Grand Committees must sit later in the day than they do now, and they must sit very often as an alternative to the House. I am sure some kind of scheme in that direction might be devised, but I am not in a position to put a cut-and-dried scheme before the House now. I put it earnestly to the Prime Minister whether something of the kind which I have suggested cannot be done. Of course, he has got his majority, and under the guillotine system this Resolution will be passed. We all know that. I hope he will consider the House as a whole, and see whether he cannot appoint really genuine Committees, consisting not of official Members on both sides of the House, but of independent Members for the most part. I appeal to him with some confidence, because I do recognise that he has the interest of the House of Commons at heart, and that he recognises that the independence and dignity of this House are valuable assets to this country. He has shown on many occasions a desire to preserve the dignity of Members and the self-respect of this House, and I ask him very seriously to ask himself whether he cannot see his way to add to the services which he has rendered to this House.

I must say I think that the Noble Lord has made a very excellent speech, and I am in substantial agreement with the spirit and temper of it. He has made an appeal to me. The Noble Lord sees in the adoption of this guillotine Resolution evidence of the decadence of the House of Commons. He spoke of the House of Commons as an Assembly which under the guillotine system had lost its self-respect. I confess that I do not share that view. I have sat in the House of Commons a longer time than the Noble Lord. I have seen the House of Commons pass through many changes, and I do not agree with the Noble Lord that the House of Commons has fallen short of that high standard of corporate self-respect and dignity which is the admiration of the nation. The truth is that the resort to the guillotine is a disagreeable and it is an odious necessity. If any practical or reasonably effective alteration could be suggested I am sure it would have been adopted. The Noble Lord said that we are reducing the lives of private Members, particularly those who sit on the Government side of the House, to an unbearable strain. There is very little evidence of the decadence of the House when I noticed the strenuous efforts made by candidates, and even by Noble Lords, to gain seats in this House and the efforts of hon. Members to retain those seats when they are here. It would appear from the character of the Members composing the Opposition and from the character of the majority supporting the Government that a seat in the House of Commons is the object of a legitimate ambition. I admit it is a matter very difficult to deal with, and I shall be most happy if we can find any practical substitute—one which is not exposed to the drawbacks to which attention has been called. But I cannot admit for one moment that the present system has all the evil consequences which the Noble Lord has attributed to it. I liked to hear the Noble Lord's vindication of the Grand Committee system, and I agree with him that by a larger and more elastic use of that system it may be possible to avoid some, at any rate, of the evils which necessarily arise from its application. This Bill is a very good illustration—I do not think we could have a better one—of the useful purposes which a Grand Committee can serve. The Bill was before the Grand Committee 23 days. It was discussed under almost ideal conditions, the closure was never moved from beginning to end of the proceedings, and the Government Whips never sought to exert authority in any one of the Divisions that took place. As the Noble Lord has stated, the discussion was conducted by men who listened to the arguments, and when the Division bell rang and the Division was taken the persons who took part in it were not persons hurrying hillier and thither from all parts of this building, but were those who had been actually present during and taken part in the Debate. I quite agree that Bills like the Finance Bill ought to be dealt with by the whole House, but, as regards Bills of this character, I think they get a much more adequate and more fair discussion, and that the decisions arrived at are arrived at far less under the stress of the party Whip than when the Bill is discussed in Committee of the whole House. You have here a Bill which for 23 days has undergone Debate in Committee. May we not come to the primâ, facie conclusion that its details have been in the main adequately and thoroughly discussed. The Noble Lord said if we had the courage of our convictions we should dispense with the Committee stage altogether. I do not altogether agree with him. I think it is desirable that those Members who were not on the Grand Committee and had no opportunity of taking part in its discussions should, at this stage, be allowed to make their views heard and to give effect to those views. But I may point out that of the Amendments now on the Paper the vast majority are in the name of and proceed from Gentlemen who were Members of the Grand Committee. That tends to show, I think, that the Grand Committee was very fairly constituted, and that it included a majority of those who take an active interest in the fortunes of this Bill.

The Noble Lord raised a somewhat wider topic at the close of his speech—one perhaps not strictly germane to the Resolution before us—when he made a direct appeal to me and asked whether it was not possible, by means of a Committee or in some other way, to avoid a recurrence of this guillotine Resolution. I myself have been of the view for a long time past, and I rather think it is shared by the Leader of the Opposition, that if, as I believe, under our present procedure we must have a compulsory allocation of time for at any rate a large majority of the important Bills that come before this House it would be much more satisfactory if it were made, as regards its form and method, not at the instance of the Government of the day, but by an impartial Committee representing all sections of the House, and including, I need not say, non-official as well as official Members. I have tried, and tried hard, to bring about such a result. I am sorry to say that hitherto all one's efforts in that direction—although I do not throw any blame on anyone, for the matter is extremely difficult—have been fruitless. But the matter has not been lost sight of, and I shall be only too happy, as would anybody who from time to time may occupy my position, and have cast upon him this most invidious task, if the responsibility can be shared by the transference of it in the first instance to a body not representative of the Government of the day or of a majority of the House for the time being, but representing all shades of opinion and all interests. But I think if you are to have this procedure at all there could not be a case in which it is more abundantly justified, both by the subject matter of the Bill and by the discussion which it has already undergone.

I rise first of all to say I very much agree with what has just fallen from the Prime Minister. I think there is a great desire in this House that the allocation of time for the discussion of Bills should be the duty of some independent Committee. The right hon. Gentleman will remember I made that suggestion in a Debate on this subject last year or the year before, and the difficulties that then occurred to my mind, and which were felt by many Members of the House, were in regard to the finding of a Committee representing different interests, and able and willing to accept his very responsible task. I am perfectly certain my noble Friend is correct when he says that unless some procedure of this kind is adopted the result will be that the compartment Resolution—adopted as this one is proposed to be adopted—will tend to increase and not to decrease the opposition offered to Government measures. The Prime Minister tells us that this Bill was before the Grand Committee upstairs 23 days, and that it received full consideration. The President of the Local Government Board, who was in charge of the Bill, will bear me out when I say that there were repeated occasions during the discussion of the Bill when not only the Committee—not merely those who were criticising the Bill, but the Minister in charge and the Committee itself would have been thankful to have had present the Law Officers of the Crown to advise on points of first-rate importance. The Prime Minister tells us that this is in many senses, as near as one can gauge, a measure of this magnitude, a non-controversial Bill. But there are in it several absolutely novel proposals, very far-reaching in their character, and my own firm belief is that a great many Members of this House have not had time to make themselves masters of the Bill, and will be very much surprised when they find what are the powers which it is bringing into use for the first time. The general principle of the Bill is an excellent one. It is one which finds supporters in all quarters of the House. Its object is to facilitate the work of town planning, to make better provision for the dwellings of the people, and for open spaces, etc., in town districts. That is an admirable principle, but I confess it surprises me very much to find there has been so complete an absence of protest from hon. Gentlemen opposite with regard to some of the powers contained in this Bill. It is quite contrary to the general practice of the Liberal party to depart from the principle that power which is possessed by the local authority should be exercised and held by that authority—it is quite contrary to the general practice of that party to desire to transfer such power to a central body. Yet this Bill will give the Local Government Board arbitrary powers with regard to some very important questions. I should, of course, be out of order if I were to go at length into a discussion of the details of the measure.

We are told that this Bill is better than the Bill of last year. I agree, but that is the result of its having passed through Grand Committee. It now comes up in a much better form; many of the objections to that of last year have disappeared, and many of the shortcomings then to be found in it have been dealt with. Therefore the Bill is undoubtedly better than last year's. But there is still a great deal in it calling for very careful consideration. I cannot help thinking when you have got a non-controversial measure, and this is a Bill which I believe everybody desires to see passed, although possibly many of us would like to see it amended before it is passed, I cannot, I say, help thinking that in such a case it would be possible to ascertain, through the ordinary channels, whether it is not possible to pass the Bill within a reasonable time, without having to resort to a closure Resolution of this kind. This Resolution must result in sending this Bill away from this House without anything approaching the consideration it should receive. The Prime Minister has reminded us that there are very few Amendments, comparatively speaking, down to this Bill, and that what there are are in the names mainly of the Members who were on the Standing Committee. What is the reason for that? What is the reason for the difficulty to, which the Prime Minister has referred? What is the real reason which makes this Resolution for dealing with the Bill in compartments necessary? It is not that Members talk too much. There may be some justification for that charge, but I submit it is not the only reason. The main reason is that the Government are asking this House to do in one Session as much work as it ought to be asked to do in two or three Sessions. Let anybody look for himself at this Session's programme. Let him divest himself for a moment of his allegiance to a particular party, and look at the programme. Why, this Bill by itself is one which should properly have taken up a week or two of our time, and yet we are asked to pass it in three days—to give two days to Committee and one day to the Third Reading. There is a great deal in this Bill of which most of us approve, but which we should like both to discuss and possibly amend. The truth of the matter is, unless Members are brought into close contact with Bills, they are unable to put down Amendments, because their time is so much taken up in studying the various measures before Parliament. It is a practical impossibility for any man—for even one like myself, who has had the advantage of many years' experience in Government Departments, and is therefore more or less familiar with the drafting of Bills—to properly consider these Bills, and one can therefore realise the difficulties which must present themselves to private Members who have not had official experience. It is impossible for one like myself to master one-half of the Bills that we have to consider in this House, and the reason why many Members do not put down Amendments is because they are obliged to confine their attention to certain Bills in which they are practically interested. I am more in agreement with the Prime Minister than with my Noble Friend as to the condition of this House. I do not think it has of late years suffered any loss of credit, nor do I anticipate that it is likely to have any such future before it as the Noble Lord suggests. My experience, whenever I have any connection with any constituency, is that the difficulty is not in getting somebody to represent it, but in deciding between the numerous and extremely capable gentlemen who desire the privilege of representing it. Therefore, I do not share my Noble Friend's views as to the future of this House, but I do share his view that unless we realise that we are trying to do too much, although we may succeed in turning out more legislation, it will be ill-considered, and will not be the work which this House is intended to do, and it will leave more work to be done by the other House. The moment you do that it will provide a dozen new reasons why you should have a Second Chamber—reasons strong enough to convince the most doubtful of the importance and use of a Second Chamber. If, when a Bill leaves this House, it is so drawn as to be incapable of interpretation, or to be put into force, it must be reconsidered, because it will not have had sufficient consideration here. I know we have all used these means of closure, and it is always possible for Governments to throw in the face of the Opposition that they did the same when they were in power; but, on the other hand, I think I can say, with a very adequate recollection of the closure, Resolutions for which we were responsible, that we did not employ them in any degree as often as the Government has done, nor did we apply them to those measures which were not of a controversial character. The measures to which we applied them were those which we as a Government were bound to pass, and which the Opposition, as an Opposition, were bound to try to prevent us from passing through this House. Then again, if in regard to an important Bill, the time given to its discussion is so short and inadequate that it is insufficient for its consideration here, it will be found that there is a great deal of it which has been hastily passed, and which will require reconsideration and amendment. The result will be, if it fails, a condemnation of the system of passing legislation in this House, and it will leave this House open to the grave criticism, if not to the contempt, of those outside it.

I feel that I ought to offer some apology to the House for intervening in the Debate upon a question of procedure, seeing that I am one of its junior Members, but I do consider that this Question so materially affects every Member of this House, in his opportunity of doing any work, that I hope I may be allowed to express my own personal views on this subject. I am quite ready to admit that some sort of guillotine, some sort of arbitrary limit of discussion is necessary. Out of 670 Members, well-informed on every subject, it is quite impossible to allow every one to speak, but that is not in itself a sufficient justification for the Resolution which we have before us. May I for a moment draw attention to the exact form of this guillotine Resolution? This Bill contains, in its first schedule, one of the most arbitrary proposals ever passed into law, a great deal more arbitrary than any clause that has ever been passed into law in this country. Uuder this proposal land can be compulsorily acquired, practically on the mere ipse dixit of the President of the Board of Trade. I am interested in this question, because I represent, to a certain extent, those who are responsible for the great harbour trusts of this country, and we feel that we ought not to be liable to have the land which we have bought and set aside for building docks acquired at the instance of the local authority, instigated by the President of the Board of Trade. I must say that I think we have a good case for protesting; but, at any rate, if we have not got a good case, we have got a strong enough case, to have a decent time given to us for its consideration. Under the guillotine proposal, we are to discuss clauses 57 to 73, the new clauses, schedules, and other matter necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion between 7.30 and 10.30. What reasonable opportunity for discussion have we under these circumstances? I understand that the method which will probably have to be adopted to get a discussion on this question, although I do not know whether it will be successful, is to move to leave out part of clause 2, which refers to the schedule by which it may be hoped that something may be contributed in the nature of a general discussion. I do not know whether that is going to be in order or not, but I understand that there is a good sporting chance that it is in order. Let us suppose it is in order. We have to try to obtain some terms of concession at some future stage, probably in another place, from the Government. Surely it would be better if a Member who wished to raise his point were to be allowed to move an Amendment which he could commend to the House, and perhaps the House would accept it, instead of dragging in some discussion by some ingenious dodge of evading the rules of Order.

I have been present at several of these guillotine discussions, and I am sure, as a private Member, that they do very much to destroy the interest in the Debate. I do not think I am one of those who have moved a great many Amendments, or have attempted to address the House on a great many occasions, but I do consider, when you have got hold of an important point, which influential people outside consider to be of interest, it is destructive of all Debate, that an hon. Member should be kept hanging about here for hours, with no certainty that he will be allowed to raise the point on which he wishes to address the House, instead of being allowed an opportunity of raising the question and submitting it to the judgment of the House. What you have to do now is to collect a deputation and get hold of influential Members for it outside this House, and then go and see a Minister in his office and try to get him to put down an Amendment. That is positively the only opportunity of influencing legislation which private Members have, and I do not think it is satisfactory. Another point in regard to these guillotine Resolutions to which the attention of this House might be directed is this: It is quite obvious that people who are implacably opposed to a Bill can readily get their Amendments in before those hon. Members who are in favour of the Bill and require to increase its efficiency. Therefore this system of discussion by guillotine instead of enabling those who really believe in the Bill, and want to carry it out in its best form, to put their views before the House, enables those who do not wish to have the Bill improved to prevent the discussion of Amendments to which they object. There have been several instances in which that has been done, and I do not blame the people for doing it under the circumstances. It is also perfectly clear that this system of guillotining measures must inevitably increase the popularity and the importance of the House of Lords. What am I to say to my Friends? Am I to say, "You wish to have certain points raised. I am very sorry, but I cannot get them through the House of Commons. I advise you, if you possibly can, to scrape an ac- quaintance with a Noble Lord and try to induce him to interest himself in your case and bring the Amendment in in another place. But, so far as the House of Commons is concerned, at any rate, it is hopeless to even promise to have the matter to which you attach importance considered."

I have said I do not object to some restriction of discussion, and I have put an Amendment on the Paper to this very Resolution to indicate the way in which I believe these discussions may be limited. I believe we ought to set up some Committee of Selection, who would sit down and separate the wheat from the chaff of the Amendments, and leave the Amendments which they think are really substantial enough to be submitted to the House. I have no objection to any Amendment which I propose being refused consideration because hon. Members of experience and discretion consider that the point is not worth raising. I do not object to that, if that is done, but I do object that any point which I consider important should be rejected from consideration merely because other hon. Members have a better opportunity of getting their Amendments on the Paper or are more ingenious in getting them before the Committee. Under the existing guillotine proposal we have a system of selection, but it is a system of haphazard and chance, instead of a system of selection by design and purpose, and I do not think anyone can deny that a system of selection by design and purpose is better than a haphazard method. If ever there was an opportunity for selection of this kind this Bill gives it. It affords an excellent opportunity for trying the experiment suggested in my Amendment which is on the Paper. On this very Bill, which is assumed to be one of a non-party character, there are important points which would have afforded a splendid opportunity for the experiment of a committee of selection to be tried. No very great harm can be done if the experiment was tried, and I am sure five or six hon. Gentlemen could be found to undertake to be a committee of selection, and if it were tried and found unsuccessful it never need be attempted again. If, on the other hand, it was successful, I am quite certain that it would be of very great use. I do not want to take up any more of the time of the House, but I do want to add a word of protest against the way in which the time of the Session is going to he overloaded. Some of us, as was suggested by the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. F. E. Smith), do wish to have an opportunity of making the personal acquaintance of our children, and we also have businesses in the country which have got to be carried on. Some of us have to earn our living, and we all of us require to have a period of time for our own private affairs. To carry out such an arrangement as has been suggested, and which has been described as a fortnightly tourist arrangement, would, it seems to me, quite obviously reduce Members to mere voting machines, and there is no security that the point in which an hon. Member is interested will be discussed at all. Under these circumstances I intend to vote for the Amendment which has been proposed, and which is now before the House, that certain words should be left out, but I do not in the least promise to vote for the insertion of the words which the hon. Member proposes to insert.

I hope the House will allow me, as having taken part in the consideration of this Bill in the Committee, to make a few observations on the Bill itself, although I am aware, Sir, of your ruling, which was made last year, that in a Debate of this kind I must not enter upon the merits of the Bill, and I do not intend to do so. The right hon. Gentleman opposite knows that my position in the Committee of last year was one of benevolent neutrality, and I had very great pleasure, and I may say pride, in assisting him on one or two occasions, when his views did not entirety commend themselves on that occasion to the Committee. A Bill of this character ought not to be debated in the summary manner in which this Bill has been debated. There is one remarkable feature in this Bill, and that is the large amount of power and authority which is given under the schedule, but the schedule under the proposals of the Government can never be debated. I may give one or two examples of the powers proposed to be given under the schedule to the Local Government Board. They are to have powers as regards streets, roads, and other ways, about structures, buildings, and erections upon spaces, private and public, the preservation of objects of historical interest or national beauty, sewerage, lighting, water supply, and a variety of other subjects. It seems to me that the Gentlemen who prepared this Bill ought to have placed these powers in the forefront of this Bill, and not to have relegated them to the schedule. I have made a few notes of the questions which ought to be dis- cussed. First of all, I have regard to the unprecedented character of many of these provisions. If they were simple they would be novel, but they are not only not simple, they are complex, and they are so comprehensive that I believe the ordinary reader of the Bill will not fully grasp their meaning or their purpose.

Another difficulty which I feel about the Bill is the limitation of the power of the Courts. There are many questions now decided by Courts, sometimes of summary jurisdiction and sometimes of a higher order, which will be decided by the Local Government Board. I hope there will be a public inquiry if necessary. There is not only a transfer from the Courts to the edict of a Government Department, but there is a transfer from the local authorities to the Local Government Board. I may give one example of the limitation of power to the owners and the managers of property which, I think, ought to be discussed. At the present time, when a building gets out of repair, the authorities can give the owner a certain time in which to effect repairs. Very often, under pressure of work, it is impossible to amend those defects at once. By a clause in the Bill that time may not be granted, and, to my knowledge of the injury done to property by storm and tempest in the high-lying districts in the West Riding, I am sure if time is not given it will be entirely impossible to make these repairs. There is a provision as to commons and open spaces in the forefront of the Bill. That is one of the large questions which ought to be thoroughly well discussed by the House. Open spaces are rather suggestive of districts of an urban character, and I feel myself in regard to this Bill, and also as regards other proposals of the Government, very great jealousy in favour of open spaces in our towns. I do not wish our towns to be built up; on the contrary, it is of great importance from the sanitary, and also from the social point of view, that there should be many open spaces in our towns, and I hope the number of these spaces will be enlarged. I may direct attention to the enormous scope of the Bill. It applies not only to the country, but also in a large measure to London, and I feel it is quite necessary that the greatest care should be taken when we have regard to the operation of a Statute of this kind in regard to London. The position of medical officers is a question of great magnitude, and I hope ample time will be given for the consideration of that subject. There are many clauses in this Bill which will greatly injure private interests. Private interests, I am quite sure, are not sufficiently regarded in this House, because you may depend upon it people will not expend their money either in buildings or in industrial undertakings unless they are quite sure that the money so spent will be safely guarded and protected by the Legislature.

I have, I think, indicated the magnitude of these questions and the great importance which there is in closer investigation. The private owner—I do not say the capitalist, because the term capitalist stinks in the nostrils of some people—but the private owner, be he a small or a large owner, is entitled not only to protection but also to encouragement. I am most anxious that the working classes should spend their money in houses to dwell in, and I want that security to be safeguarded. I have regarded this Bill from the first in a friendly spirit. I believe great benefits will arise from it if amended wisely and justly. I am hopeful that some Amendments will be suggested by the right hon. Gentleman in Committee, and I am sanguine enough to believe that with Amendments, and after full and close deliberation, this Bill may form an important section in the Statute Book.

Every Member who has spoken, with the exception of the Prime Minister, has opposed these Resolutions, and spoken in support of the Amendment. I think I may say that the Prime Minister probably agrees as much as anyone of us to everything that has been said against these Resolution. I do not speak in any disrespect to the Prime Minister or the President of the Local Government Board, and I do not speak in any sense in opposition to the Bill, indeed, I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend on being responsible for a measure which if it is passed will, I believe, have far-reaching effects for good throughout the length and breadth of the country. I am not unaware that his Bill has been discussed for a considerable length of time upstairs, but it has not been discussed by one-tenth part of the membership of the House. I do not know what the attendance from day to day was in the Grand Committee, but even supposing every member of the Committee were present that would not constitute more than a tenth part of the membership of the House. I oppose these Resolutions, and support the Amendment as a private Member in the interests of the private Members of the House. When the Prime Minister went to the Table I was under the impression that he was about to speak in a somewhat more sympathetic tone in regard to private Members, and I could only suppose that he and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walter Long) have been so long official or ex-official Members of the House that they have forgotten what the sentiments and emotions of a private Member are. We private Members come here day by day, and there is enacted before us a great political drama. We have our hero, if I may so indicate the Prime Minister, and we have our villain, if I may with great respect refer to the Leader of the Opposition, and these right hon. Gentlemen are supported by a brilliant company. All those hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on both Front Benches live day in and day out in the full glare of the limelight. How far otherwise is it with the unfortunate private Members of this House! The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London who sits on one of the Back Benches opposite shares a considerable portion of the limelight, but we constitute an almost pathetic crowd. In some aspects we are like the chorus in a Greek play. We express the emotions of joy or sorrow, as required by the action of the political drama, and at times we are expected to evince the most fulsome agreement with everything that is said and done by our leaders. Our real sentiments are only discoverable in the smoking-room. If I may take a better and more fitting parallel, I would say that we are like the walking gentlemen who figure largely in the background of our society drama. We are especially walking gentlemen when we have to submit time after time to all the drudgery of the division Lobby. It must not be forgotten that many hon. Members who sit on the Back Benches are very considerable orators; in fact, I may claim for most of us that we are astonishingly eloquent on provincial platforms. But, speaking more seriously, it cannot be denied that many hon. Members are men of the largest business and practical experience, whose views ought to be heard in the debates in this House. Many of them have served long and faithfully in Local Government bodies, and some of them control the destinies of hundreds and even thousands of their fellow-workers. What do they become when, after perhaps many serious contests, they are elected Members of this House? They become the mere slaves of Junior Lords of the Treasury, whose only claim, so far as I have observed, to control is the almost affectionate manner they display at times when the Government is in some slight danger, and in the case of other hon. Friends, the great attention they give to the details of sartorial equipment. But we are a pathetic crowd in this matter We are the authors of many unspoken speeches. When my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister stepped to the Table to-day I thought. I should be compelled to consign another to the unspoken speeches that ought to be spoken in this House. More often than not, when just on the very verge of catching your eye, we are baulked in our endeavour by a perfectly superfluous Under-Secretary. No doubt the Under-Secretary makes a better speech than we would make, but it is generally constructed of more exiguous materials.

I appeal to my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board in this matter. I know that he—and I can say this for the Prime Minister also—is a House of Commons man in the best sense of the word. The President of the Local Government Board believes in the House of Commons, and, unlike some hon. Gentlemen opposite, he believes far more in the House of Commons than in another place across the corridor. He and all his colleagues are specially interested in maintaining the spirit and cheerfulness of their followers in this House. Closure by compartment is killing the House of Commons by degrees. Everybody knows it, and nobody knows it better than the right hon. Gentlemen who sit on the Front Benches, and, what is more remarkable, everybody admits it. I speak from experience. I made three desperate efforts to get into this House, and I confess that if I could think of a reasonable excuse for not fighting another contest, and if I were not under obligation to my Constituents, I should think, not once but 100 times, before trying again. I would say nothing as to the proposed procedure if there were no alternatives, but there are alternatives. Suggestions have been made from both sides of the House, and some of them are admirable. I should not like to assent to a Bill being committed to a Committee of five Members, as the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) proposes, but there is one obvious and reasonable method, and that is to limit the length and the number of speeches that are delivered. It must not be forgotten that the licence indulged in by some Members in this House results in the loss of the liberties of a great many others. I may say that there is only one sentence in this Resolution with which I find myself in cordial agreement. It says that "if an Instruction is moved, a brief speech from the Mover and from the Minister in charge of the Bill shall be permitted." Why should not that principle govern the whole of our Debates in Committee? I have no hesitation in saying that two days are ludicrously inadequate for the discussion of the Bill in Committee. There are, be it observed, 27 pages of Amendments, a great many of them standing in the name of supporters of the Government. I observe that on the second day 16 clauses in the Bill, the new clauses, and the schedules, are to be taken in less than three hours. There are some right hon. Members of this House who would take half of that time before they really began to warm to their work on a single clause. It is a curious feature of this system that at the present time we are engaged in wasting a whole day of Parliamentary time in discussing these Resolutions. I should like to appeal to the President of the Local Government Board as to one in particular of those so-called new clauses. It has never been fully debated in this House. The whole question has only been debated for a quarter of an hour. It is a question which touches every open space in this country. There is a long Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Cowan), and I should like to know whether that Amendment is to be accepted verbatim et liberatim, because it is supported by every one of the open-space societies in this country. I will conclude by saying that a Liberal Government ought to be specially careful how it lends itself to these methods of procedure. [Cheers.] I am glad that sentiment meets with sympathy in a quarter where one would not so much expect it as on this side of the House. I will say again what I have ventured to say before on the rare occasions when I have been fortunate enough to catch your eye, that the liberties, dignity, and independence of this House are far more important than any individual Bill the Prime Minister may bring forward.

In addition to being a Front Opposition man, I have the honour of being one of the few representatives from Scotland who sit on this side of the House, and, therefore, I wish to associate myself with what was said by my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, and also with what fell from my hon. Friend the Member for Leith (Mr. Munro Ferguson). I was not myself a Member of the House when the Bill was before the Standing Committee last Session, but, according to the information I have, the measure was generally under consideration at the same time when the Scotch Committee was sitting. The result was that very few Scotch Members were able to attend the Committee. In consequence of that, although the Bill was discussed very fully from the English point of view, it was not at all adequately discussed from the Scotch point of view, and the result has been that great dissatisfaction is felt in Scotland with the Bill as it now stands. Indeed, I would venture to appeal to the Prime Minister and the President of the Local Government Board on the subject. So far as Parts I. and II. are concerned it will not only interfere seriously with the present administrative powers of the municipalities of Scotland, but it will put on the Local Government Board of Scotland a burden it is not fit to discharge. The Local Government Board in Scotland is, we are told, to be enlarged and more fully equipped to enable it to discharge the duties it has to perform at present. It is already taxed to the utmost in the discharge of the work placed upon it, and the idea of putting additional duties on that Board, without largely augmenting it, is to put on it a burden altogether out of the question. The hon. Member for Leith made an appeal to the Prime Minister on that matter. This Bill, so far as parts I. and II. are concerned, will, according to the Scotch view, result probably in a great deal of litigation. It did not receive anything like adequate consideration in the Standing Committee, and if passed as it stands, it will involve a very serious interference with municipal administration. So far as part I. is concerned many of the important bodies in Scotland consider that it is doubtful whether the measure will be of any service at all. As to part II. there is an Amendment on the Paper standing in the name of one of the Members for Glasgow that that part should not apply to Scotland. That is a proposal which is supported by a very large body of public opinion in Scotland. Having regard to the fact that the two application clauses, namely, 52 and 56, come at the end of the first day's discussion, it is perfectly certain that there will be no discussion on them at all, and the result will be that the views of the people of Scotland will not be heard. After this Bill having been 27 days in Committee it is still most unsatisfactory as far as Scotland is concerned. I submit to the House that the proposal to deal with this Bill in two days in Committee is perfectly absurd. If that proposal is carried through, and the Bill is applied to Scotland, there will be the greatest dissatisfaction in that country, and they would far rather not have this Bill at all, but get a Bill of their own in proper shape. The application of the Bill to Scotland has not been adequately discussed in Committee, and adequate discussion is not possible according to the Resolution before the House, and particularly owing to the manner in which the time is allotted.

I rise to join in the appeal which has been made to the Government to reconsider the whole position. The Bill as it stands is not as we anticipated it would be, practically a non-contentious measure. It bristles with points of the greatest importance. There is the whole question, for example, of relations between municipal authorities and the central Government. It is proposed to give to the Local Government Board powers hitherto deemed unsuited for it, and which are viewed with very grave suspicion by a large number of the best and most efficient of our local administrative bodies. There is also the question of financial relationship. If the Government Resolution as it stands on the Paper goes through it will practically mean that the terms upon which loans are to be granted for the purposes of this Bill will never be reached for discussion, and anyone who has even the slightest acquaintance with the housing question must be aware that the biggest difficulty in the way of carrying through housing schemes is the financial one, and that therefore special consideration should be given to the terms and conditions upon which moneys are to be advanced to local authorities for the purposes of this Bill. There is also a very important question which will not be reached if this proposal is carried as to whether a local authority acquiring land for the purpose, which is not immediately needed for the purpose, will be allowed to buy and to hold the land, and further, whether land acquired now for the purpose under the provisions of the Act may subsequently be diverted to public uses other than those put forward in the Act itself. All these are very important questions, and typical of many others within the scope of this Bill. I am at a loss to understand why this Bill should not be sent in the ordinary course of this Session to one of the Committees upstairs. There seems no good purpose to be achieved by keeping it before the House. It certainly will not tend to economise the time of the House, because the time that is to be spent upon the Committee stage might be saved if this Bill were sent upstairs to one of the Grand Committees, and then, if need be, the guillotine to be applied to the Report stage and the third reading. By that method we might save two or three days of Parliamentary time, and at the same time—this is more important still—avoid the farce of pretending to discuss this Bill under conditions and circumstances which make discussion an absolute impossibility.

I hope, then, that the Government will reconsider their determination to keep the Bill in the Committee of the whole House for its Committee stage. But if the Government is so wedded to that method as not to abandon it, then some extension of the time for the Committee stage is an absolute necessity. The schedule proposed by the Government means that practically the whole of the time given for the first portion of the Bill will be taken up in discussing Amendments to the first clause, and the whole of the other clauses will be passed without debate, without division, without any means whatever of ascertaining the opinion of this House upon it. In a measure of this importance that is a method which is most undesirable in itself, and is sure to lead to very disastrous results. At the least a third day might be given to the Committee stage of the Bill, and some time-table might be arranged to provide that on the afternoon of the first day clauses 1 to 13 should be taken, beginning with clause 14 for the second portion of the first day, and going on to clause 29, and taking from clause 30 to 52 on the afternoon of the second day, and from 53 to 56 on the evening of the second day, and we should at least have an opportunity for discussing some of the bigger and more important issues raised. At the same time, it must be obvious to the Government now that the feeling practically of all parties in the House is that the most satisfactory method of dealing with the Bill this Session is to send it once more to a Grand Committee upstairs, where it can be fully, adequately, and properly considered, and not rush it through in the form in which it now stands, and thereby probably defeat the very object which the President of the local Government Board and the Govern- ment have in view of getting through a really big, workable scheme which will enable our local authorities to improve the amenities of their towns and cities. Therefore I ask that the Bill be sent to a Grand Committee, or, failing that, that more time should be given for the Committee stage in this House itself. If neither of those suggestions commends itself to the Government, then I hope the House will defeat the proposals now before it, because it is better to postpone the Bill for a Session altogether than to have it in the undigested form in which it now appears on the Paper.

I find myself unable to vote for the guillotine on this Bill, and my reason is taken from the speech of the Prime Minister in introducing it. He mentioned under the arrangement as to closure that an opportunity would be given to discuss clause 30, which will come first at the beginning of one of the Debates. The reason that the Prime Minister gave for that was that this was a clause not originally in the Bill which had not had satisfactory discussion. What applies to that clause applies equally to a number of others. The Member for Worcestershire has mentioned another clause which he thinks of vital importance, and which ought to have, not only a Vote, but ought to have a discussion before it is passed into law. I may in the same way mention clause 44, which is an absolutely revolutionary proposal in the building regulations of this country. That was not originally in the Bill. It was inserted very unexpectedly by the Government. It was very inadequately discussed, and it ought not to be passed into law without some further discussion, either in the Committee upstairs or further consideration in this House, as suggested by the last speaker (Mr. Keir Hardie). He again has other clauses in the same position which have not received adequate discussion. I have much less objection to voting for a guillotine Resolution in this House in the case of contentious measures where it is perfectly well known to both sides that our opponents will not give the opportunity in any case of discussing the main issues. But I must take an entire exception to the way in which it is put by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Robert Cecil), that the guillotine created obstruction. We all know perfectly well, in the last Parliament as well as this, that it is obstruction that has caused the guillotine. There is no use in trying to blind ourselves or the country by such a suggestion. It is really a case of putting the cart before the horse. Therefore I have very much less objection to the guillotine in such cases. But in this case, where the measure is largely non-contentious, I strongly object to the many clauses of great importance being crowded into two days, not only with inadequate, but absolutely with no discussion, and I would much prefer the alternative that the Bill should again be sent to a Grand Committee, where its proposals at any rate will be discussed, if they cannot be discussed here. I should like to raise a discussion of a few hours on every clause. I should like to hear the pros and cons of every clause stated on each side of the House, and if speakers were limited to speeches of ten minutes' duration, then we should be able on behalf of each view to place the case before the House, and we could have a Division on every clause, at any rate in this House. I cannot vote for the Amendment in the form in which it is, but I certainly cannot support the Government in guillotining this measure.

I wish to ask the Prime Minister, after the Debate which has taken place, whether he is not aware, more than he was before, of the very deep rooted dislike which exists of the system proposed by him of closure by compartments. Many Members on the other side of the House and on this side have expressed their dislike of the system we pursue, and the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) pointed out to the Prime Minister how, under the closure, some of the most important interests would receive no consideration at all. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the question of harbour trusts. There are interests of still greater importance which will receive no consideration at all under this Bill, if the closure is put into force. I allude to the railway interest. The Prime Minister knows just as well as I do the enormous amount of property that is at stake in our railways. I do not mean to say that railway companies are concerned with every clause of the Bill, but certainly in some of the clauses they are very deeply and very seriously interested. My active and intelligent Friend, the Member for the City of London, has several Amendments which have received the assent of the railway companies, and other Amendments have been entrusted to his care, all of which are of great importance to the railway interest. One question of special importance is the substitution of the Local Government Board for Parliament in regard to railways and the powers of compulsory purchase. That is a most important subject in itself, in addition to which all the other Amendments put down by my hon. Friend are of the greatest interest to the railway world generally. If the plan of the Prime Minister be adopted not one of these will receive any consideration at all; they will be cut out entirely. Although I believe the President of the Local Government Board himself sees the justice of many of our demands, we shall not have an opportunity of urging anything either in favour or against any of the points which the President of the Local Government Board may raise or we would raise if we were allowed the opportunity. Closure of this Bill by compartments means a very great deal to the railway companies, and it is on their behalf that I enter a most decided and earnest protest against the system being applied to this measure, because we will be deprived by it of any means of bringing before the House all our just and fair requirements. I do hope after the expression of opinion from his own benches which we have heard this afternoon, the Prime Minister may even now be able to reconsider his proposals. We have heard a good many suggestions from individual private Members. I honestly confess I do not agree with any of them, and we are brought back to the question how is the Prime Minister to get his various measures through the House of Commons. The only way in which he can deal with them is not to overload the House of Commons during the Session. We cannot do more than a certain amount of work in a certain time, and I would infinitely sooner that this Bill should have fair and full consideration in some other way. It is looked upon as a non-contentious measure. It is not entirely non-contentious, for there are clauses in it which I believe to be dangerous, and which I think the House would consider to be dangerous if it had an opportunity of looking into them. That opportunity will be entirely denied to it. The time that is allotted is unfairly drastic, and I ask the Prime Minister to consider whether it would not be better to allow the Bill to pass through the House by some other means.

I should like to vary the comments which have been made by whole-heartedly supporting the Government. Private Members are here to work, and one of the main objects for which they are here is to see that Bills are carried which will be useful to the country. If there is one Bill that has been discussed almost ad nauseam, it is this particular Bill when it was in Grand Committee. We discussed it for weeks. We had every conceivable point which could be brought up discussed again and again. The right hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill met those who opposed it in the most courteous manner. He accepted the Amendments of the Opposition again and again, until, practically, this Bill became largely a Bill accepted wholeheartedly by both sides of the Committee. I hardly remember in the short period I have been in Parliament any Committee which, more whole-heartedly, discussed a measure than did the Committee in this instance. If I might make a suggestion—I do not suppose it will be accepted—it is this: I believe there were about 80 Members on that Committee; if in the House they only spoke a quarter of an hour each, that would give ample opportunity to other Members to take part in the discussion. But, supposing the Members of that Committee who have spoken again and again in Committee, should issue to themselves a self-denying ordinance to abstain from speaking on the Bill when it comes before us, it would then give all the rest of the House greater opportunity of giving consideration to the various proposals, and by that means we should bring about a freshness and novelty in the discussions that would materially help the passing of the measure. I feel that if the Government—of course, they know best—could give one more day it would remove a great many objections. But apart from that, I heartily support the present proposals. Speeches in this House are far too long, and a great many of us believe that the private Member who cannot say in 20 minutes what he has to say, had better leave it unsaid. I support the Government.

I have been waiting for some time before addressing the House, because I naturally preferred, according to our ancient custom, that there should be an alternation between the views expressed on any subject before us, and thought I had better defer my intervention until I heard a speech to reply to. This is the first speech that has not been wholly directed to attacking the course which the Government desire to pursue. It is not merely my hon. Friends behind me who with much ability and considerable severity have criticised the Government's proposal, but the hon. Gentleman who speaks for the Labour party has intervened in exactly the same sense, and every other Member on the opposite side of the House who has spoken at all has spoken against the Government. The Prime Minister himself has been left in solitary grandeur to support the proposal of the Front Bench. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down gives what he calls whole-hearted support to the proposal of the Government, and his whole-hearted support consists in desiring that the time to be given to the Committee stage of the Bill shall be increased by one-half of that allowed by the Government. That is the strangest form of whole-hearted support that I have had experience of, and I can only imagine that the hon. Gentleman preserves what debaters call the values, and that it is by comparison of other forms of support which is given on that side of the House that he is moved to give, as he describes it, whole-hearted support to the Government.

One day. I understand that two days are given by the Government to the Bill, and the hon. Gentleman wants a third day—that is, one-half. On what ground does the hon. Gentleman give his whole-hearted support? He gives it on the ground that when the matter was under discussion in Grand Committee the Minister in charge of the Bill showed a very conciliatory disposition, and did all he could to make the general views of the Committee unanimous. The report which the hon. Gentleman gives on proceedings in Grand Committee harmonises with that I myself have heard, and I have no doubt the right hon. Gentleman did show a most conciliatory spirit in dealing with this measure. How many Members, roughly, attend Grand Committee, and habitually vote upon it? I am speaking on this matter in complete ignorance, in necessary ignorance, of what takes place. My Noble Friend, speaking of the system of Grand Committee, said one advantage they possessed was that their proceedings were not reported, and nobody therefore had anything to gain by lengthy rhetorical efforts. I am not at all sure that at the time when the proceedings of this House were not reported, the absence of reporters damped down eloquence. At all events, I am taking my Noble Friend's testimony that the speaking is of a highly businesslike character. The Bill came down to this House no doubt improved by discussion in Grand Committee, but this House, speaking of it generally, will be as ignorant of the arguments by which the various provisions were supported as if it had never been in Grand Committee at all. How many attended that Grand Committee? My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Sir F. Powell) talked of one particular issue in which he was deeply interested, and which was decided by the Grand Committee when only 39 were present. I do not know whether that is above or below the average attendance. Very likely it is above the average, or it may be the ordinary attendance. ["No."] I am quite ready to accept any statement as to the attendance in Committee, but it is universally admitted that the number of Members of this House who took part in the discussion in Committee is a mere fraction of the whole. Everybody must admit that to pass a Bill of this kind in two days through Committee, with only some 30 or 40 Gentlemen who took any practical or effective part in the discussion, is really not legislation carried out by this House at all. Be it good legislation or bad legislation, it is not legislation by this House.

I propose on this point to say something about the remedies which have been proposed for the admitted evil of closure by compartments. My Noble Friend gave us his experience in Grand Committees, and it harmonises with what I have heard from other Members of the House. I have not had the good fortune of serving on Grand Committees. Being expected to attend here more than most Members of the House, it is not the custom to put the Leader of the Opposition on Grand Committees, because if that were done he could not carry out all the other duties which are imposed upon him. The result is that he is divorced from all the efficient and businesslike proceedings which take place on whole classes of Bills. I am not entitled to speak with any personal authority of the manner in which the business of Grand Committee is taken. I imagine that the Prime Minister is in very much the same case. At all events, Grand Committee has this advantage, that those who go there, unlike the Gentleman so pathetically described by the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Mr. C. B. Harmsworth), and in rather less tragic terms, but still with sufficiently coloured painting by my Noble Friend, as feeling that they are otiose—I suspect many of those who do take the trouble to attend feel that they are having a more direct effect on the legislative Acts than they could have in this House. That is a very great advantage undoubtedly, and not to be minimised, but I think if you are really to rely on Grand Committees—for I do not say to revive, but to conserve or add to the interests which hon. Members have in our proceedings—I do not see how you can carry out that unless you adopt my Noble Friend's suggestion in some shape or another of having the Grand Committees at a time when the Members of those Grand Committees can attend.

My learned Friend who moved the Amendment (Mr. F. E. Smith) described, in language which everybody will admit was not exaggerated, the prodigious labours now thrown on this House as regards the number of months in the year in which the House sits. But he did not dwell, as he might have with propriety dwelt, upon the tremendous labours during the 24 hours that many Members of this House are asked to undergo. I do not believe it is possible for any man to do his duty on Grand Committee and then to work hard until eleven, twelve, or one o'clock, or whatever hour it may be, for more than a very few occasions in the year. It cannot be part of your practice. If, then, you are really going to rely on Grand Committees to do much of this work, if you expect a large proportion of the Members of the Grand Committee to attend, you really will have to carry it out in some shape or another by devoting an evening in the week in which all the Grand Committees would meet. By that way men who have to earn their livelihood or have various avocations to pursue will be enabled to attend Grand Committees as they are now able to attend the House. Otherwise it is useless to rely on Grand Committees; it cannot be done. The very fact that you have excluded the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition from those Committees shows that the work of this House cannot be carried on within these walls if you also ask Members to do an enormous amount of legislation and private Bills which they are now asked to do. I therefore think, unless the House is prepared to make a very great change, my Noble Friend's suggestion does not carry out the objections to the present system.

What is the suggestion of the Prime Minister? It was a suggestion not thrown out for the first time, but which I believe has been made by other Members, namely, that there might be a Committee appointed which should allocate the time to be given. I am not sure whether the Prime Minister said of Bills or whether they were to allocate the time given by the Government as between different clauses of Bills. Those are very different propositions, and it is on that difference that any such proposal will, I fear, be wrecked. It can only be the Government which is to settle how the time is to be allocated. How is it possible that any Committee of this House should be able to take on itself the responsibility of saying, "The House must sit from January to August or September, or whatever it is, and we insist that so much time shall be given to each of the Government proposals." Therefore, only such and such Government proposals can be got into the box or into the mould into which all these legislative materials fall. No Committee will do that. This Government have the responsibility, be that its fault or its misfortune.

What has been the course of our business during the last three years? We had an Autumn Session the first year; we had a very prolonged Session the second year; we had an Autumn Session the third year; and in this year the only difference I can see between an Autumn Session and what we are going to have is that when there is an Autumn Session we have a holiday during August and September, but during this year we are not going to have any. That is the result of business under the control of the responsible Government. How on earth can a Committee of this House give us orders to sit during all those months? If they do give us those orders the Government can go to the country, and say that they are not responsible for the arrangement of business in the House, but the Committee, and they can say the Committee have ordained that the House of Commons is only to sit seven months of the year, and they have set out that certain Bills were to take such and such a time, which is of a meagre character, and the Government will add, "The responsibility is not ours." But, after all, the resposibility must be theirs. No Committee can possibly decide how long the House is to sit, and no Committee can decide how long a Bill is to take. Are they going to decide that, or what course are they going to adopt? The only thing left to us to decide when a Government say two days, as in the present case, or three days, as the whole-hearted supporter would wish given to the Committee stage of the Bill, that it shall be allocated as between different fractions of that Bill in this or that manner.

Supposing the Prime Minister were to suggest, when two days ought to be given to a Bill, that a Committee should be formed to decide how those days were to be used. No Opposition would consent to serve on such a Committee. How could we? We think the time grossly inadequate and morally by serving on a Committee we should be giving assent to a proposal from which we perfectly dissent. It will, therefore, end in being a purely Government Committee drawn from the Government side, or from those who sup port the Government. Would that be any great comfort to the House, or help us in any way? It would leave us exactly where we are, with all the evils we still suffer from. Fundamentally there is, in the first place, too little time given, as I think, for these discussions in the House; and, in the second place, that owing to there being too little time given, the Opposition never do, never have, and probably never will consent to do their best to second the efforts of the Government, to squeeze 13 horses into 12 stalls. I do not think the Prime Minister when he will give consideration, as I am sure he will, to the arguments I have ventured to lay before him, will find in this Committee any solution of the difficulty under which we labour.

After those general observations, may I come to a criticism, a special criticism, of the proposals now before us? My Noble Friend so far misunderstood some observation which fell from me last year as to suppose that my Friends and I sitting on this side of the House were going to acquiesce, silently acquiesce, in every proposal of closure by compartments which it might please His Majesty's Government to put forward. That is not the case. I have not referred to the speech.

If I remember rightly, what I said was that since the present Government came into office that it made so persistent a use and abuse of this particular weapon that it was quite absurd for those who were responsible for the conduct of the Opposition to say that this was only a weapon to be used by one side, and that the other side were to be for ever precluded from using a similar implement. I do not remember exactly what the statistics are, but it is all-important to the House to remember that though closure by compartments existed before this Government came into existence, it never existed in anything like the shape in which it now exists. It did not exist in the present shape for two reasons. In the first place, it was very rarely applied—I forget the statistics, but I think it was applied three times in the 10 consecutive years in which we were in office. The statistics for the present Government were 10 times in three years, and they have now altered those statistics for the worse, and it has now 12 or 13 times in four years, and I suppose this is not the last closure by compartment we shall have this Session.

It must be evident to everybody who looks at that fact, and that fact alone, that we are now working under an entirely different system from that which prevailed before these Gentlemen came into office, and came into office in order that they might restore long-lost liberty to this House. There is another difference between the method habitually adopted by this Government and the method adopted by their predecessors. We never adopted the methods, or certainly hardly ever, until it had become perfectly clear that there was an undue amount of Parliamentary time to be used on the Bill, and, inasmuch as in most instances there was wisely put the controversial clauses in the forefront of the Bill, you will find that almost all the controversial questions contained in the three Bills which we closured were fully discussed, if not on second reading, in Committee of the Bill also. The most striking case of that is the Education Bill of 1902, which went on to December before the closure by compartments was applied. The present Government entirely altered that, and they have altered it deliberately and as a permanent alteration. They say, "Is it not folly to wait until there has been obstruction; had you not far better settle the time when the Bill begins, so that everybody may know where they are, and the time may be used to the best advantage?" They have given us that justification over and over again for what is attempted under this procedure.

I say that makes the whole difference between the procedure which prevailed before this Government came into office and that which prevails now, the difference being twofold. In the first place, it is done as a matter of everyday practice by the present Government. It was rarely done by their predecessors. In the second place, they do it before the necessity arises as a deliberate policy for carrying through their proceedings. I think that must be granted. Ought not they give the full time for discussion in Committee; ought not they to say how long ought this Bill to take, and give that time, and then the Opposition and the Committees would have to try and make the best of it? The Government know perfectly well they are not giving reasonable time. If they did not know it before this Debate, they know it now. We have had responsible Members rising in every quarter of the House—from above the Gangway on the Government's own side, from among the Labour Members, and from the ordinary Opposition—pointing out that this Bill, although it is not in any sense a party Bill, raises great issues which should be discussed. We sometimes misuse the term "controversial Bill." There are two quite distinct senses in which a Bill may be said to be non-controversial. One is that it is a Bill which everybody understands and with which everybody agrees, not merely in its main objects, but in all its details; and there are many such Bills. They really are non-controversial Bills in the full sense of the term. But a Bill which in its general objects meets with approval, and in regard to which, if there is disapproval, the disapproval does not in any sense follow party lines, may yet be a controversial Bill in another and very real sense. It may require controversy in order to settle certain definite points; and unless I utterly misunderstood the tenour of the Debate to-night the points which have to be discussed on this Bill may not be many, but they are very important, and ought to have full time allowed them. But they are not being given that time; and under these circumstances it seems to me that this premature closure, this closure by compartments before the occasion for it has made itself manifest, is not being carried out by the Government on the only lines which can ever hope to succeed, namely, lines which convince every reasonable Member of the House that there will be a fair opportunity for raising all the points which ought to be raised.

Then I come to my next criticism. The old view was that if a Bill was really important it should be kept in the whole House, but that if it was more or less departmental in character, and the details only had to be considered, it might be sent upstairs. I see a distinct tendency on the part of the Government to misuse their powers in that respect, and to come down to the House and say, "This Bill is so important that it must not go upstairs; but, at the same time, we cannot give you more than two days to discuss it in the House; so we shall pass it without discussion." Really, I am not at all sure that under the modern closure-by-compartments system we do not get a better discussion in Grand Committee than in Committee of the whole House. Discussion in the whole House is reduced to a mere farce. It is hardly worth going to the trouble of sitting two days to consider 72 clauses and six schedules when you know that of those 72 clauses and six schedules only a mere fraction will be discussed. I believe that the Government prefer keeping Bills in Committee of the whole House under the new method. The old theory was that if the Government thought that a Bill would be hammered by criticism they sent it upstairs. But my belief is that the Government have very wisely come to the conclusion if they think a Bill is going to be hammered by criticism that they had better keep it in this House, and deal with it under closure-by-compartments; and then, with every air of generosity, they say, "We will not send this Bill upstairs; we will keep it in Committee of the whole House." They do keep it in Committee of the whole House, but they do not allow the whole House to discuss it. That is a very serious further and new interference with the liberties of this House.

But there is a still further and still newer interference on which I must comment. If I rightly understand this Resolution, whole blocks of clauses are to be put in one compartment and voted upon once, and once only. That might be a very tolerable way of dealing with purely machinery clauses. I do not think it would be wise, but it might be tolerable. It is not tolerable with an ordinary Bill embodying many important propositions, and least of all is it tolerable where you have to do with a Government which legislates on the lines adopted by the present Government. What is their plan? They put within the four corners of one measure, and describe as one Bill, sometimes two, sometimes three, sometimes four quite separate Bills. Three out of those four Bills may possibly be approved of by the Opposition, but of the fourth they disapprove. What are the Opposition to do on the second reading of a Bill like that? If they vote against it they are accused, rightly enough, in the country of having opposed the three portions of the measure with which they agree. That is very hard upon them. You might suppose that that would be remedied by their allowing the second reading to pass, and being allowed to deal with the matter in Committee. But they are not allowed to deal with the matter in Committee. It would be perfectly possible for the Government to get the most objectionable and most controversial sub-Bill, if I may create the term, through a second reading, because both sides of the House approved of the greater part of the measure; then, having done that, to carry a closure-by-compartments Resolution before the Bill got into Committee; so to arrange the Closure, as they have arranged it in the present Resolution, that all the proposals to which there was no Government Amendment must be put together; and then to abstain from putting down any Amendments at all to the most objectionable sub-Bill contained in the parent measure. That is what our liberties are coming to. Nothing like it has ever been proposed by any government before the present. Nothing like it has ever been suggested on the floor of this House by a responsible Leader of the House. I say that it is not merely continuing the tradition of their predecessors; it is not merely altering the tradition of their predecessors by using three or four times in a Session what their predecessors used three or four times in a decade, but it is using their power in a manner more oppressive and more absolutely inimical to free discussion than ever their immediate predecessors or any of their predecessors on that Bench would have conceived possible. It is useless to say that the Government like free discussion. They show no sign of it; they make no sacrifice to attain it. In order to have the glory of saying that they passed so many Bills, dealing with so many subjects, they are prepared to sacrifice every liberty of this House, and to exercise all their ingenuity in finding new methods for stopping discussion.

To say that there is the smallest resemblance between the policy the Government are pursuing and the policy which any party, Liberal or Conservative, pursued at any time before 1906, is grossly to pervert the whole of our Parliamentary history. It is a most unhappy condition of things. The Prime Minister has made no suggestion to-day that he sees any termination to it. He has no plan himself, unless it is the plan of the Committee, which he gracefully adumbrated. That plan, I am certain, is illusory; and he has no other. I presume, therefore, at all events, so long as he and his friends are in office, the very elementary rights of public discussion in this House, to which under all Govern- ments we have been accustomed, are, as far as they are concerned, to be taken permanently away from Members. We are to be sent here, apparently, as the "wholehearted" supporter of the Government suggested, really in order to "see" Bills passed into law. That is exactly what can be done by this House of Commons. It is the only thing we can do. We can watch the process; we can see the Bills become law. That is all we can do, and any other organ than that of our eyes is perfectly useless for any operation which takes place.

As, by way of protest, I intend voting against the Government on this Resolution, I should like to explain my position. If this Resolution had been proposed three or four days ago I should have said that it might be regarded as a reasonable proposal. It might have been said, "The Government are pledged to a Disestablishment Bill for Wales, which will take a very considerable time, therefore it is necessary to limit the time given to other proposals"; and I might have taken a different view from that which I entertain at the present moment. I learnt yesterday that the Government do not propose to fulfil their definite pledge with regard to Welsh Disestablishment. I understand that the fulfilment of that pledge has been postponed for another Session. It is always "another Session." Under these circumstances, I think we are entitled to say to the Government, "Now that you have been relieved of the expenditure of some weeks of Parliamentary time, which you honestly and sincerely intended to allocate to the question of Welsh Disestablishment, why is there all this hurry with regard to this Bill? Just think of what you have gained by not fulfilling your pledge in the matter of Welsh Disestablishment. You have gained, by a stroke of the pen, three or four weeks of Parliamentary time. Why then this rush in regard to the Town Planning Bill?" It is perfectly clear from this Debate that nobody on either side will get up and say that two days is sufficient to discuss 73 clauses with new clauses and schedules. Even a wholehearted supporter of the Government at the end of his speech thought that 50 per cent. more ought to be added. Under these circumstances I would join my protest to those already made. If we are going to do anything more than read the clauses we want more time. It would really take you, Sir, all the time to read the clauses from the chair. Would it not be far better for the Government to say, "We do not want to discuss this matter at all." I could understand that. Put the clauses en bloc, and say, "We do not believe in discussing these matters." To suggest two days is really adding insult to injury. It is giving the form and denying the substance. Under these circumstances, I hope the Prime Minister, Parliamentary time being now relieved of the great pressure of Disestablishment, will give a more favourable hearing to the appeals which have been made. This Resolution must have been drafted before he knew of the very favourable position he would be in as regards Parliamentary time, because the postponement of Welsh Disestablishment only happened last night. What is he going to do with the time he has saved? Seeing that he has gained so much time at the expense of Wales, so far as this Session is concerned, I would appeal to him to reconsider his decision, and to give a reasonable and adequate time to discuss the important Bill dealt with in this Resolution.

I do not propose to follow the hon. Member who has just spoken into the domestic affairs of the party opposite; I leave the Prime Minister to settle the allocation of the time he has saved. Nor do I intend to follow the hon. Member for Worcestershire (Mr. C. B. Harmsworth) in his very candid criticisms of the Front Bench. This is one of the rare and delightful occasions on which back bench Members are allowed to express their opinion on the eloquence which distinguishes the Front Bench. There is one rather important question which I do ask the Government to deal with on this Bill. I have been requested to mention it, and I hope the President of the Local Government Board will endeavour to persuade the Prime Minister to try and find a little additional time to discuss it. I am not sure that the President of the Local Government Board realises the importance of the matter. It relates to one or two important points of the Bill dealing with the position and powers of the great municipal authorities. Very sweeping Amendments are being made by the Bill as to the position of the great municipal authorities. We are here as representing the people of the country equally with the town and county councils, but I am not at all sure that the latter, in many respects, that is, the municipal and county council representatives, are not in closer touch with the feelings and wishes of the people than we are. There are many special clauses in the Bill, but I want to call the attention of the President of the Local Government Board to clauses 10, 30, and 60. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Keir Hardie) spoke on one of these clauses, and put in a plea for more time to discuss the whole of the Bill from the point of view of the local authorities. The effect of clause 10 is to remove the discretion which the local authorities now have under the old Housing Act. Clause 30 is that very remarkable clause which has been referred to. By it may be obtained statistics of all the small houses in the county or in the town. An enormous census is to be taken whether the local authority likes it or not. I for my part, as representing to a certain extent that very important local authority, the corporation of Manchester, am here to express the very decided objection of that corporation to this portion of the Bill. I believe I am correct in saying that the Association of Municipal Corporations—really a more representative body than we are—representing the considered opinion of the great municipal authorities of this country, object to this power, this obligation, being forced upon them without discussion in the House of Commons, and without any request being made to them as to how the matter is to be carried out. They ask, Where are the funds to be provided for taking this census, which may be a very large and very expensive operation? At all events, they do say: Let this matter be discussed in the House of Commons, in order that those Members who take an interest in municipal government should state their views direct to the House, and ask whether the House intends to place this very important and onerous burden on the shoulders of the municipal authorities, whether they desire it or not.

There is clause 60, which gives the Local Government. Board, on representation from a locality, and after an inquiry, power to provide a town planning scheme, whether the locality desires it or not. A town planning scheme under the provisions of this Bill may be forced on the corporation of Manchester, or any other town, or on the county council of any county, or the corporation of a smaller borough, whether they desire it or not, and regardless of the fact that they may have a town planning scheme of their own which they prefer. Surely, in these days of democratic Government, it is a little hard to have Parliament force these powers upon local authorities, or, rather, that Parliament should give a Cabinet Minister sole discretion and the power to force local authorities to carry out schemes, whether they like them or not, and without allowing the direct representatives of the people in this House to discuss it. I have not read all the provisions of the Resolution which the Prime Minister has moved this evening, but I note that clause 30 comes in at the beginning of his two and a half hour periods, when we are allowed discussion. There are half-a-dozen clauses, a schedule or two, a few new clauses, and any number of Amendments in the vicinity of this clause, and therefore there is a slight possibility of that clause being discussed. But everybody in this House knows that there is absolutely no possibility of the other particular clauses being discussed at all. Amendments will necessarily and properly be put down on the previous clauses which are contained in the closured compartment, and these important clauses, which are objected to most, almost unanimously, by the great municipalities of our country, are to be passed into law by this House without a moment of explanation, without the possibility of any Amendment, and without almost the possibility of being voted upon unless one likes to challenge Divisions in a tired House on clause after clause. This is absolutely a waste of time. I have not made a truculent speech this afternoon. I have not dealt with the main question, with the rights of private Members or closure by compartment, I have left all that to those who are probably more able to deal with the matter than I am, but I do want to ask the right hon. Gentleman to extend the time—although I am afraid that will not be possible—or to remodel his estimate in order to put these three most important subjects at the head of a compartment in order that they may receive something like adequate discussion by this House.

I do not intend to make second reading observations on this. Bill, but rather to speak against the proposal that the Bill should be passed through this House by this mischievous method. I hear it remarked in the precincts of the House that this Debate is a waste of time, inasmuch as we are only talking about what we are to talk about, instead of getting to business. I do not take that view. I think that the question before us, that of the use of the guillotine, is one that affects the efficiency and credit, and almost the existence of the House of Commons. I have listened, therefore, with considerable interest to nearly all the Debate. The right hon. Gentleman made a customary reference to precedent. He compared the sins of his own Bench with the sins of the Bench opposite, and weighed up the latter more heavily than before. But I do not think the use of the guillotine can be justified by the argument that because we have used it before, that therefore we ought to do it again. It has become a regular weapon for the use of both sides of the House, but I say that the oftener the guillotine is used the more mischievous it becomes. It is like a bad habit, which hon. Members probably know is more difficult to get rid of if it has been indulged in a great many times.

The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister referred to the possibility of finding some alternative method. I regretted to hear him say that he had tried very hard to find another solution for this question, and had so far failed. I do feel that the House in its own interest must find some alternative method to the present one. I would put it, as I believe I have clone on former occasions, that this is not a party question. It is not a question of Liberal or Tory. We are all Members of this House. We are all interested in its reputation. We are all interested in its uses. I think we ought to put our heads together and try to find some other solution than this mischievous one. The mischievousness of it has been pointed out by many speakers, and I need not refer further to them, but by agreement of the speakers on both sides of the House it is proved that this is not a party question. The Prime Minister himself, with his irreproachable choice of adjectives, said that this was an "odious method." I say it is discreditable to us all. What is the reason of it? I suppose it is to overcome obstructive tactics, and we are told that obstructive tactics are indulged in by both sides of the House. I would say, let us all work to discredit obstruction. It is not friendly in the House of Commons to obstruct one another. Questions brought forward by the Government of the clay ought to be fully, adequately, and thoroughly discussed. No reasonable argument should be suppressed or prevented; and after the subject has been thoroughly talked over let every Member, whether he is in a minority or a majority, accept with a loyalty the decision of the House. The only way I can see of getting through our business without this weapon is the method I have suggested, and that is to have patience with one another—to have more and more patience. Let us have patience with our opponents. By patience we would wear them down. [Loud laughter.] I mean we would wear them down to a practical and reasonable manner. That has been proved over and over again in the experience of this House before we had any guillotine Motions. We have talked over a Bill which was strongly opposed, and then perhaps the Secretary of the Treasury has crossed over to the other side of the House and had a few words with hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and there has been a reasonable agreement arrived at, and the Debate has been terminated by agreement. By a little more use of these negotiations, and by the exercise of patience, I do believe that we might get our Bill through without the use of the guillotine.

What did our predecessors do before the guillotine was ever invented? In their day they had their difficulties. They used to sit late. They used to pilot their business through, not only without the use of the guillotine, but without the use of the closure, which had not been invented either. They used to get their business through. I was glad that the Prime Minister expressed warm approval, as did, I think, the Noble Lord, the Member for Marylebone (Lord R. Cecil) of the Grand Committee system. So far as my limited experience of Grand Committees goes, I think they have done very useful work. Members have been able to take a real part in the legislation which has been promoted. It may be, has been, pointed out that this particular Bill with which we are now concerned, the Housing and Town Planning Bill, has been 23 days in Grand Committee. I think that the House of Commons ought to respect the work which these Grand Committees do for it upstairs, and when a Bill comes down with recommendations from a, Grand Committee we ought to be, as I am sure we all are, disposed to accept the decisions which have been laboriously arrived at upstairs. That is the method which is usually adopted in every municipality; they very often send back or reverse the decisions which have been arrived at by one of their Committees. Therefore that is the justification for the limited time the Prime Minister is promising to allocate to the discussion of this Bill. Twenty-three days in Committee have been already spent upon it, and a great many decisions have been arrived at by what may be called the selected Members of this House, and it ought not to take long for us to accept their recommendations. There are two main objections to these guillotine Resolutions. One is, they tend to put too much power into the hands of the Executive, and to take too much power out of the hands of the House of Commons, and the evil is that they inevitably afford justification for the interference of the Upper House in the decisions arrived at by this House. We were told a short time ago that the relations of this House and the Upper House were to be the dominant issue before the country. They have become less and less the dominant issue because of this guillotine closure. It is impossible to justify condemnation of the House of Lords if Bills are pushed through this House without ample opportunity for private Members of this House. If we were a debating society in the provinces we should be all very much concerned with the honour of our society. We would not stand such Motions as this, to whatever party we belonged or however adverse we were in our political opinions; we would stand up first of all for the honour and efficiency of the society to which we belonged. That is what I want hon. Members to understand with respect to this House.

My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition drew the attention of hon. Members to the provision in this Motion which most of us omitted to see. He alluded to the provision which requires the Chairman to put together all the clauses to which no Government Amendments have been moved. The reason for that provision is, I believe, locked up in the breasts of the Government, because I cannot conceive it possible that the House of Commons would consent to a large number of clauses being put without any discussion, and put altogether so that an hon. Member who might object to one of these clauses could not vote against that particular clause, but is compelled to vote against all the clauses. The Leader of the Opposition said that this was altogether new, and had not been introduced into any of those Resolutions before. I think he is in error. I believe I am right in saying this was introduced into one of these guillotine Resolutions and my right hon. Friend the Member for South County Dublin (Mr. Walter Long) raised a point of order on the subject in the Committee stage as to whether it was in order or not, and he approached one of the clerks at the table to know whether it was in order for the Chairman to take that course. He was then told that the Resolution had been put down in error in the form in which it then was; and that, having been put down in that form, it could not be altered, and I understood that the right hon. Gentleman was practically given a pledge that that should not occur again. I am not in a position to say that such a pledge was given, but the matter might be dealt with by the President of the Local Government Board or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury when they come to reply, and they might tell us how it is that this very extraordinary power has been brought into the Resolution and whether or not it is accurate that the previous Resolution was put down in error, and whether any pledge was given that the error should not be repeated.

Yes, I had better read it. "The Chairman, in the case of a, series of clauses to which no notice of Amendment has been given by the Government, shall put the Question that those clauses stand part of the Bill without putting the Question separately as respects each clause." It has been an invariable custom of the House in Committee to put the Question, "That this clause stand part the Bill," and I wish to know why, in addition to taking away from us the right to discuss these clauses, they are also taking away the right to vote separately on each clause. The Prime Minister told us that if ever guillotine Closure was justified, it was justified in the case of this Bill, because it was a non-contentious Bill. I should have thought that that was a strong argument for not applying guillotine to the Bill. I always understood if a Bill was contentious and the Government feared there would be obstruction, then there might be some possible excuse for bringing in the guillotine, but in this case we are told by no less a power than the Prime Minister that this Bill is not a contentious measure.

We had a very interesting speech from the hon. and learned Member for Anglesea (Mr. Ellis Griffith). He pointed out that a very large increase in the time at the disposal of the Ministers had arisen since last night owing to the fate of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill; and that being so, would it not be much wiser on the part of the Government if they allowed us to enter upon the Committee stage without this Motion, and then later on, if they found undue obstruction on the part of hon. Members upon this side, they could bring forward their guillotine Motion? Another argument is that this Bill has been discussed in Grand Committee, and the Prime Minister told us that 200 Amendments had been put down by hon. Members, who were Members of the Grand Committee. I should have said that showed the very great necessity there was for full discussion of this Bill. If hon. Members who were members of the Grand Committee and who spent 23 days in the Grand Committee, thought it right to put 200 Amendments down when the Bill came to this House, I should have said that is a very strong argument, showing that the discussion was not satisfactory to Members of the Grand Committee themselves. It is said that the system of Grand Committee is a good one. What happened on this Bill? I have taken the trouble since this discussion began, with the aid of one of my hon. Friends, to find out the number of Members of this House who sat upon the Grand Committee. The number was 68, out of 670 Members.

That I cannot say for certain, but I have gone through the Division Lists, and, as far as I could make out, there were generally present between 40 and 45 Members, and the practical conclusion you have come to is that somewhere between 40 and 45 Members, out of a total of 670 Members of this House, discussed this Bill, and because that number of Members discussed this Bill it is now held that the whole of the House has no necessity for discussing it. We are told that a great many Members come into the House without hearing the discussion, and that they go into the Division Lobbies at the direction of the Whips. If that is so, it is owing to the alteration of the Division rules. The old rule said that no man should vote until he heard the Question put The Government did away with the old system for the exact same reason that they are now bringing forward this Motion. They are in such a violent hurry to pass measures that they are impatient of listening to the Question put from the Chair. With regard to the wonderful working of these Committees. I was on a good many of them, and I remember one, not so long ago, when the Home Secretary, the Minister in charge of the Bill, was defeated in Grand Committee. What did he do? He practically said he did not care twopence for the decision of the Grand Committee. He was going to bring the whole matter again before the House of Commons, he told them, and that he did not bother whether the Committee was in favour of it or not. The right hon. Gentleman practically said the Government had a great majority at its back, and it would reverse the decision of the Grand Committee, and when the Bill came to the House of Commons on Report, the Amendment, which was carried against the right hon. Gentleman in Grand Committee, was at once rejected. That is a proof that the Grand Committees are not working so well as might be thought. They are only working well when they register the findings of the Government; if they do not do that the matter is brought down here to the House of Commons, where the will of the Minister is carried out in defiance of the decision of the Grand Committee. I am very glad to find that at last a number of hon. Members opposite have asserted their independence. I think the hon. Member for one of the divisions of Worcestershire said there were 670 Members in this House "all eloquent." I think I should have said there are 669 all eloquent. I hope the result of the statement which has been made by the hon. Member opposite will mean that in future we shall hear a little more of the eloquence of hon. Members sitting on the Ministerial Benches, and if we do I can assure them we shall be delighted on this side of the House to give them a most respectful hearing when they desire to charm us with their eloquence. The hon. Member for the Hexham Division made an extremely able speech, spoiled only by the suggestion that in order to avoid Resolutions of this sort a Committee of Selection or some other Committee should decide what Amendments should be discussed. I hope no such idea will be seriously entertained. Where will you find six or seven hon. Members to form a Committee to consider, for example, the 1,500 Amendments to the Finance Bill? Are they to hear the arguments of the Movers of those Amendments? Because, unless they do, it will be impossible to form a clear judgment as to whether those Amendments should be given a place or not. Very often an Amendment is put clown which does not appear, on the face of it, to carry much weight, but it very often turns out in Debate that this small Amendment means a very great deal. I remember that insignificant Amendments have led, not to only prolonged and important discussion, but also to great changes in the Bill before the House. The hon. Member for Salford told us that in years gone by we managed to conduct our business without the guillotine and without closure, and he said he was very much opposed to both. I have always been opposed to both, but it must not be forgotten that when the Unionist party were in office they never resorted to the guillotine anything like the number of times it has been used lately, and when they did bring in the guillotine it was only after prolonged discussion. Now we are subjected to the constant bringing in of guillotine Resolutions without any discussion. The remedy for this state of things is not to be found in a Committee of Selection to allot the time and select particular Amendments for discussion, but it is to be found only in the Government taking care not to bring in too large a number of Bills in one Session. I think a large number of hon. Members on both sides of the House will agree with that. A great quantity of the Bills are brought in for no purpose except to gratify a small section of the House. They are discussed inadequately, and, even when they are passed, it is generally found that the country, instead of being pleased with them, resents them very much. If we had been a little less profligate with our legislation the party now in Opposition would not have had such a severe reverse at the last General Election. We ought to consider at the beginning of the Session how many Bills can reasonably be passed in one Session, and we ought to drop all the smaller Bills, which are brought in only to gratify some particular section of the House. Unless something of that sort is done we shall drift into a perpetual system of using the guillotine. I hope that when we come back to power, as we shall do in a very short time, my right hon. Friends on the Front Opposition Bench will follow out the advice I have just given, and not bring in too many Bills, and not apply the guillotine.

This is a question upon which I find it is extremely difficult to support the Government in. It is a subject which I have considered very carefully. I was not fortunate enough to be on the Committee upstairs last Session, and I have been looking forward to hearing a full discussion of this Bill in the House this Session. I notice that the Committee stage is to have only two days, and when I read that I confess it fairly took my breath away. This is a Bill of very considerable importance, embracing very wide interests, and affecting the local government of the whole of the country, and I understand that the only effective defence that has been made for this Resolution is that this Bill was considered last Session in Committee for a considerable period of time. If that be so, and that is good enough, then there is no need to have a Committee of this House at all. If it is not good enough, and it is necessary to have a Committee to consider this Bill, then I am bound to confess that I think two days for the Committee stage of a Bill of this magnitude is totally and absolutely inadequate. Under these circumstances, I feel extreme difficulty in being a whole-hearted supporter of the Government, in fact I find it almost impossible on this occasion, and in connection with this Bill, to be a supporter of the Government at all.

:I think we have a right to know who is the real author of these proposals and why they have been thought to be necessary. I was present during most of the time devoted to this Bill on Committee, and I do not think either the President of the Local Government Board or the Under-Secretary will be prepared to say that there was any undue delay in regard to any of the matters then considered. It would have been far better and more natural that this Bill, having passed through the Grand Committee, should have come to this House on the Report stage without resorting to this very serious course of passing a guillotine Resolution. I represent the Association of Municipal Corporations, which took a very considerable interest in this Bill before the Committee. They were very well received by the President of the Local Government Board, and in many matters our representations were dealt with in a spirit which, I think, the importance of the case demanded. There were, however, some things in the Bill urged by the County Councils Association carried against the wishes of the municipalities which we desire to have a chance of discussing. The county and non-county boroughs of England, Wales, and part of Ireland have some right to be considered. Their representatives have gone carefully through this Bill, and they consider that in regard to three particular clauses their rights are going to be suppressed and taken away from them. Those clauses are Nos. 10, 30, and 60. As regards clause 30, I am pleased that the President of the Local Government Board has put it in such a position that it is probable that there will be a proper consideration of it; but as regards clauses 10 and 60, which give a right to four inhabitants to override—

Order, order. The hon. Member is only repeating arguments which have been used before in his absence.

I thought that as president of the Association of Municipal Corporations I might claim a right to represent their views.

In this matter the Government are making it plain that if municipalities or the inhabitants of the kingdom want justice they cannot obtain it in the House of Commons, and they will have to look to the other House alone for that justice which they are unable to get there.

There are some clauses in this Bill which will cause almost a revolution. Under one clause in the case of a certain row of houses the bottom floor may be passed as suitable for habitation whilst the upper storeys may be condemned. If this particular clause was applied to the houses in a town built on a hill-side it would cause quite a consternation. I think that clause alone requires a whole day for discussion. There are other clauses which require very serious consideration, and I cannot see how this Bill can be properly debated in Committee in less than a week. I must say that I do not entirely agree with all the observations that have been made as to this House being degraded, but I object to the proposal to pass this enormously important Bill through Committee in two days.

I shall oppose this Resolution as a protest against a flagrant breach of trust on the part of the Government against the Welsh people, to whom they gave a pledge that they would pass the Welsh Disestablishment measure through all its stages this Session in this House.

I regard the President of the Local Government Board as a reasonable man. It is impossible to discuss Clause 44 under the present arrangement; and yet I believe it is a clause which the right hon. Gentleman has greatly at heart. That is the greater reason why he should give a reasonable opportunity to those who do not agree with him to express their views. But where it is placed it cannot be discussed at all. Clause 30 will be taken, and I suppose the Debate on that will take up the whole of the evening. There will be no opportunity for Members specially interested in the clause, and who represent local bodies, to state their views, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not unreasonable that such an important clause should be put in such a position that there will be no possibility of discussing it in the slightest degree?

I entirely agree with what has been said against the abuse of the guillotine. It is my opinion that if Bills were more carefully thought out and drafted a great deal of discussion would be saved. If Members of the Government would introduce fewer Bills and devote more time to properly drafting their Bills there would, in my opinion, be much less discussion, while the use of the guillotine might be avoided or greatly modified.

Question put, "That the words 'the Committee stage (including any Motion for an Instruction), Report stage, and Third Reading of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Bill shall be proceeded with as follows' stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 290; Noes, 106

Division No. 164.]

AYES.

[7.50 p.m.

Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Barran, Sir John Nicholson

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Astbury, John Meir

Beck, A. Cecil

Agnew, George William

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Alden, Percy

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Berridge, T. H. D.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Ambrose, Robert

Barnes, G. N.

Boland, John

Bowerman, C. W.

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Napier, T. B.

Branch, James

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Haworth, Arthur A.

Nicholls, George

Brodie, H. C.

Hayden, John Patrick

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Brooke, Stopford

Hazel, Dr. A. E. W.

Nolan, Joseph

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Hazleton, Richard

Norman, Sir Henry

Bryce, J. Annan

Hedges, A. Paget

Norton, Captain Cecil William

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Helme, Norval Watson

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Hemmerde, Edward George

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Buxton, Rt Hon. Sydney Charles

Henry, Charles S.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Byles, William Pollard

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Cameron, Robert

Higham, John Sharp

O'Grady, J.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Hobart, Sir Robert

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Cheetham, John Frederick

Hodge, John

O'Malley, William

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Hogan, Michael

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Clancy, John Joseph

Holland, Sir William Henry

Parker, James (Halifax)

Clough, William

Horniman, Emslie John

Paulton, James Mellor

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Hudson, Walter

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Philips, John (Longford, S.)

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)

Hyde, Clarendon G.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Isaacs, Rufus Daniel

Pointer, J.

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

Jackson. R. S.

Pollard, Dr. G. H.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Jenkins, J.

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Cowan, W. H.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Cox, Harold

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Radford, G. H.

Crean, Eugene

Jordan, Jeremiah

Rainy, A. Rolland

Crooks, William

Joyce, Michael

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Crosfield, A. H.

Kavanagh, Walter M.

Reddy, M.

Crossley, William J.

Kekewich, Sir George

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Cullinan, J.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Redmond, William (Clare)

Curran, Peter Francis

Kettle, Thomas, Michael

Rendall, Athelstan

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Kilbride, Denis

Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Delany, William

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Ridsdale, E. A.

Devlin, Joseph

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Lambert, George

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lamont, Norman

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Dillon, John

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Donelan, Captain A.

Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis

Roche, Augustine (Cork)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lehmann, R. C

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Levy, Sir Maurice

Rose, Charles Day

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lewis, John Herbert

Rowlands, J.

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Erskine, David C.

Lundon, T.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Scarisbriok, T. T. L.

Essex, R. W.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Lynch, H. B.

Seely, Colonel

Evans, Sir S. T.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Shackleton, David James

Everett, R. Lacey

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Sheehy, David

Falconer, J.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Fenwick, Charles

Maclean, Donald

Simon, John Allsebrook

Ferens, T. R.

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Ffrench, Peter

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Field, William

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Snowden, P.

Flavin, Michael Joseph

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Flynn, James Christopher

M'Callum, John M.

Soares, Ernest J.

Fuller, John Michael F.

M'Kean, John

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

Fullerton, Hugh

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Steadman, W. C.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

M'Micking, Major G.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Gill, A. H.

Mallet, Charles E.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Ginnell, L.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Glendinning, R. G.

Massie, J.

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

Glover, Thomas

Masterman, C. F. G.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Meagher, Michael

Thomasson, Franklin

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Micklem, Nathaniel

Tomkinson, James

Gulland, John W.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Toulmin, George

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

Mond, A.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Hall, Frederick

Mooney, J. J.

Walters, John Tudor

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Morse, L. L.

Walton, Joseph

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Wardle, George J.

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvll)

Muldoon, John

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Murnaghan, George

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Harrington, Timothy

Murphy, John (Kerry, East)

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Hart-Davies, T

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Williamson, A.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Whitehead, Rowland

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Yoxall, James Henry

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

Wiles, Thomas

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr.

Wilkie, Alexander

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Joseph Pease and the Master of

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Winfrey, R.

Elibank.

NOES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Du Cros, Arthur

Morpeth, Viscount

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh)

Newdegate, F. A.

Ashley, W. W.

Faber, George Denison (York)

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Balcarres, Lord

Fell, Arthur

Parkes, Ebenezer

Baldwin, Stanley

Fletcher, J. S.

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

Forster, Henry William

Peel, Hon. W. R W.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Gardner, Ernest

Percy, Earl

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Gretton, John

Pretyman, E. G.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Rawlinson, Sir John Frederick Peel

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Hamilton, Marquess of

Renwick, George

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Sandys, Col. Thomas Myles

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)

Bull, Sir William James

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Hill, Sir Clement

Stonier, Beville

Carlile, E. Hildred

Hills, J. W.

Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Holt, Richard Durning

Starkey, John R.

Cave, George

Houston, Robert Paterson

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Jewett, F. W.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Kerry, Earl of

Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

Clark, George Smith

Lambton, Hon. Frederick William

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Clive, Percy Archer

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Clyde, J. Avon

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Waterlow, D. S.

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Craik, Sir Henry

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Cross, Alexander

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Dalrymple, Viscount

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir A.—Sir A.

Dickson, Rt. Hon. Charles Scott

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Acland-Hood and Viscount Valentia.

Doughty, Sir George

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

I desire to move as an Amendment to add, after the word "days" ("Eight allotted days"), the words, "which shall not be Fridays." The Government must admit that in view of the manner in which they have limited the number of the days, Fridays ought to be excepted.

Amendment proposed: After "days" insert "which shall not be Fridays."—[ Mr. Laurence Hardy. ]

Question put: "That these words be there inserted."

Question put and agreed.

Motion made and Question put: "That this Resolution, as amended, be the Resolution of the House."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 257; Noes, 115.

Division No. 165.]

AYES.

[8.4 p.m.

Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)

Clough, William

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Acland, Francis Dyke

Boland, John

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Agnew, George William

Branch, James

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)

Alden, Percy

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Brodie, H. C.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Brooke, Stanford

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

Ambrose, Robert

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Bryce, J. Annan

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Asthury, John Meir

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Cowan, W H.

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Cox, Harold

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles

Crean, Eugene

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Byles, William Pollard

Crossley, William J

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Cameron, Robert

Cullinan, J.

Beck, A. Cecil

Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Delany, William

Berridge, T. H. D.

Clancy, John Joseph

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Dillon, John

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Donelan, Captain A.

Kilbride, Dennis

Power, Patrick Joseph

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster)

Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lambert, George

Radford, G. H.

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Lamont, Norman

Rainy, A. Rolland

Erskine, David C.

Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis

Rea, Russell (Gloucester)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Lehmann, R C.

Reddy, M.

Essex, R. W.

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Levy, Sir Maurice

Redmond, William (Clare)

Evans, Sir S. T.

Lewis, John Herbert

Rendall, Athelstan

Everett, R. Lacey

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Ridsdale, E. A.

Falconer, J.

Lundon, T.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Fenwick, Charles

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Ferens, T. R.

Lyell, Charles Henry

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Ffrench, Peter

Lynch, H. B.

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Field, William

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Roche, Augustine (Cork)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Flynn, James Christopher

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Fuller, John Michael F.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Rose, Charles Day

Fullerton, Hugh

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

Rowlands, J.

Gibb, James (Harrow)

M'Callum, John M

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Ginnell, L.

M'Kean, John

Samuel, Fit. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.)

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Glendinning, R. G.

M'Micking, Major G.

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

Glover, Thomas

Mallet, Charles E.

Seely, Colonel

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Sheehy, David

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Massie, J.

Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie

Gulland, John W.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

Meagher, Michael

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Soares, Ernest J.

Hall, Frederick

Micklem, Nathaniel

Stanger, H. Y.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Mond, A.

Steadman, W. C.

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Montague, Hon E. S.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Harrington, Timothy

Mooney, J. J.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Hart-Davies, T.

Morse, L. L.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Muldoon, John

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

Hasiam, James (Derbyshire)

Murnaghan, George

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Haworth, Arthur A.

Murphy, John (Kerry, East)

Thomasson, Franklin

Hayden, John Patrick

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Hazel, Dr. A. E. W.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Toulmin, George

Hazleton, Richard

Napier, T. B.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Hedges, A. Paget

Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw)

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Helme, Norval Watson

Nicholls, George

Walters, John Tudor

Hemmerde, Edward George

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Walton, Joseph

Henry, Charles S.

Nolan, Joseph

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

Norman, Sir Henry

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Higham, John Sharp

Norton, Captain Cecil William

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Whitehead, Rowland

Hogan, Michael

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Holland, Sir William Henry

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Wiles, Thomas

Horniman, Emslie John

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Wilkie, Alexander

Hyde, Clarendon G.

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

Illingworth, Percy H.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Williamson, A.

Jackson, R. S.

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Jenkins, J.

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

O'Malley, William

Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.)

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Winfrey, R.

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Paulton, James Mellor

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Pearce, William Limehouse)

Yoxall, James Henry

Jordan, Jeremiah

Philips, John (Longford, S.)

Joyce, Michael

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr.

Kavanagh, Walter M.

Pirie, Duncan V.

Joseph Pease and the Master of

Kekewich, Sir George

Pollard, Dr. G. H.

Elibank.

NOES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Bowerman, C. W.

Clyde, J. Avon

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Bowles, G. Stewart

Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Brotherton, Edwin Allen

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Ashley, W. W.

Bull, Sir William James

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Balcarres, Lord

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Curran, Peter Francis

Baldwin, Stanley

Carlile, E. Hildred

Dalrymple, Viscount

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

Cave, George

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Dickson, Rt. Hon. Charles Scott

Barnes, G. N.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Doughty, Sir George

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Clark, George Smith

Du Cros, Arthur

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Clive, Percy Archer

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Faber, George Denison (York)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Fell, Arthur

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

Sandys, Col. Thomas Myles

Ferguson, R. C. Munro

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Shackleton, David James

Fletcher, J. S.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

Forster, Henry William

Long, Rt. Hon, Walter (Dublin, S.)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Gardner, Ernest

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Snowden, P.

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Stanier, Beville

Gill, A. H.

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Starkey, John R.

Griffith, Ellis J.

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Hamilton, Marquess of

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.-)

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Morpeth, Viscount

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Harrison, Broadley, H. B.

Newdegate, F. A.

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

O'Grady, J.

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert

Parker, James (Halifax)

Wardle, George J.

Hill, Sir Clement

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Hills, J. W.

Peel, Hon. W. R. W.

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Hodge, John

Percy, Earl

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Holt, Richard Durning

Pointer, J.

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Houston, Robert Paterson

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Hudson, Walter

Pretyman, E. G.

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Ratcliffe, Major R. F.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir

Jewett, F. W.

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

A. Acland-Hood and Viscount

Kerry, Earl of

Renwick, George

Valentia.

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Irish Land Bill

Allocation of Time

"That the Committee stage (including any Motion for an Instruction), Report stage, and Third Reading of the Irish Land Bill, and the necessary stages of the Financial Resolution relating thereto, shall be proceeded with as follows:—

1. Committee Stage

"Eight allotted days shall be given to the Committee stage of the Bill, and the proceedings in Committee on each allotted day shall be those shown in the second column of the table annexed to this Order, and those proceedings shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion at the time shown in the third column of that table, and on the conclusion of the Committee stage the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without Question put.

2. Report Stage

"Two allotted days shall be given to the Report stage of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon, if not previously brought to a conclusion, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. on the second of such allotted days.

3. Third Reading

"One allotted day shall be given to the Third Reading of the Bill, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. on that day.

"After this Order comes into operation any day shall be considered an allotted day for the purposes of this Order on which the Bill is put down as the first Order of the Day and then proceeded with, or on which any stage of the Financial Resolution relating thereto is put down as the first Order of the Day, followed by the Bill, and is then proceeded with.

"Provided that 5 p.m. shall be substituted for 10.30 p.m., and 2.30 p.m. for 7.30 p.m., and 4 p.m. for 9 p.m., as the time at which proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion under the foregoing provisions on any allotted day which is a Friday.

"For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion on an allotted day, and have not previously been brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Speaker shall, at the time appointed under this Order for the conclusion of those proceedings, put forthwith the Question on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendment, new Clauses, or Schedules moved by the Government of which notice has been given, but no other Amendments, new Clauses, or Schedules, and on any Question necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded, and in the case of the Government Amendments or of Government new Clauses or Schedules he shall put only the Question that the Amendment be made or that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill, as the case may be. And on the Committee stage of the Bill the Chairman, in the case of a series of Clauses to which no notice of Amendment has been given by the Government, shall put the Question that those Clauses stand part of the Bill without putting the Question separately as respects each Clause.

"A Motion may be made by the Government to leave out any Clause or consecutive Clauses of the Bill before the consideration of any Amendments to the Clause or Clauses in Committee.

"The Question on a Motion made by the Government to leave out any Clause of Clauses of the Bill shall be put forthwith by the Chairman or Speaker without Debate.

"Any Private Business which is set down for consideration at 8.15 p.m. on any allotted day shall, instead of being taken on that day as provided by the Standing Order 'Time for taking Private Business,' be taken after the conclusion of the proceedings on the Bill or under this Order for that day, and any Private Business so taken may be proceeded with, though opposed, notwithstanding any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House.

"On any day on which any proceedings are to be brought to a conclusion under this Order, proceedings for that purpose under this Order shall not be interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House.

"On an allotted day no dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor Motion to re-commit the Bill, nor Motion that the Chairman do leave the Chair, nor Motion for Adjournment under Standing Order 10, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be received unless moved by the Government, and the Question on such Motion shall be put forthwith without any debate, and, if an Instruction is moved, a brief speech from the Mover and from the Member in charge of the Bill shall be permitted, and thereafter Mr. Speaker shall, without further debate, put the Question thereon.

"Nothing in this Order shall—

( a ) prevent any business which under this Order is to be concluded on an allotted day being proceeded with on any other day, or necessitate any allotted day or part of an allotted day being given to to any such business if the business to be concluded has been otherwise disposed of; or

( b ) prevent any other business being proceeded with on any allotted day or part of an allotted day in accordance with the Standing Orders of the House after the business to be proceeded with or concluded under this Order on the allotted day or part of the allotted day has been disposed of.

I am not sanguine enough to think that this Resolution will meet with the unanimous approval of this House, but many, at any rate, of the arguments used in the course of the afternoon against the previous Resolution to which the House has assented, do not apply to this proposal. The main argument in the last Debate was that we were allowing a very inadequate amount of Parliamentary time—time spent on the floor of the House and in the eye of the public—to the remaining stages of the Housing Bill. As regards the Bill now under consideration—the Irish Land Bill—it is not proposed to send it to a Standing Committee; it is proposed that the Committee and all the other stages shall take place on the floor of the House, and I think I can reasonably satisfy the House that we are giving an adequate amount of time for the purpose. I may remind the House that already one day has been devoted to the introduction and first reading of the Bill, and another to the second reading. We propose to allot eight days to the Committee stage—including the Financial Resolution—two days to the Report stage, and one day to the third reading; that is, 11 days in all, which, added to the two days already given, makes 13 days for the Parliamentary consideration of the Bill. I will compare the amount of time proposed to be allocated to this Bill with the time actually occupied in the discussion of the parent Bill of 1903. The House may perhaps remember—if not, I will remind them—that the present Irish Land Bill—the Bill for which my right hon. Friend and the Government are responsible—contains 65 clauses and two short schedules. The parent Bill—the Act of 1903—contains no less than 103 clauses and one schedule, so that this Bill is very substantially shorter than that of its predecessor. It is shorter by something like 40 clauses. How was the time of the House occupied under the Bill of 1903? One day was given for introducing, three days for the second reading, ten days for the Committee stage, one day for the Report stage, and one day for the third reading. I am speaking of the time actually occupied in discussion of the various clauses, which was 16 days, including three days given to the second reading, whereas this Bill was read a second time on one night. It follows that from the stage of the second reading onwards the Bill of 1903 occupied 12 days, and for this Bill, for the corresponding stages, we propose to give 11, that is to say, one day less. We give eight days in Committee, as compared with ten; two days for Report, as compared with one; and we give one day for the third reading, which corresponds with the one day which was then used for that purpose. whether there are any Amendments down to this schedule at present, but if it is necessary to justify the special allocation of particular times to particular clauses my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, who is more familiar with the details of the Bill than I am, will show that we have made a convenient and just arrangement; but on the general scheme of the Resolution, assuming that it is desirable, as it is desired by the Government for many reasons and in many interests, that this Bill should pass through all its stages in the present Session, upon that assumption I think it will be admitted, on a review of the present Bill and of the Act of 1903, we give ample margin of time for its discussion. I beg to move.

moved to leave out from the word "that" (in the first line of the Motion), to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "this House objects to a proposal which unduly limits the time allowed for the discussion of a measure, which, by the admission of the Government, is of such vast importance, complexity, and length, that it cannot be properly discussed in a Standing Committee." The Prime Minister based his demand that the House should agree with this minatory Motion only upon one ground, that is, that because the Irish Act of 1903 was considerably longer than this Bill, and because one more day only was taken for the Committee stage than is proposed to be taken on this Bill, he said that, therefore, this was an eminently satisfactory and reasonable proposal to be made to the House, and the time allotted by the Government is amply sufficient, but I think the right hon. Gentleman, when he said that, forgot to inform the House that the Bill of 1903 was practically an agreed measure. It was a measure which was agreed by all parties in this House. It was agreed by the official Opposition, and it was agreed by hon. Members below the Gangway in all its details. In its main principles we agreed to it, and to say that 10 or 12 days being allotted to an agreed measure, necessary to solve the difficulties raised by the Act of Mr. Gladstone in 1881, that, therefore, we should agree to an amending Act in an equal amount of time is a reason which I do not think hon. Members will consider a really valid ground why we should assent to this proposal. The Bill contains many more far-reaching provisions than were contained in the Bill of 1903. We have compulsory purchase, we have enormous extra burdens being placed upon this country, and, what is more, we are asked, for the first time, I believe, in English history, when we take away a man's property compulsorily, not to pay him in cash, but in depreciated stock, which, when he sells, he will not be able to realise. In my opinion, whatever other good reasons the Prime Minister may have, the one solitary reason he places before the House cannot possibly hold water.

Earlier this afternoon the hon. Member for the Ashford Division (Mr. Laurence Hardy) protested against the idea which had been given currency to by some hon. Members that they accepted the guillotine if not in practice, at any rate in principle. I entirely endorse that protest. I do not see why we should accept the guillotine as an integral part of the working machinery of the House. Why has the guillotine become so necessary as it has in the last two or three years? It is simply because the Government are not content with passing or endeavouring to pass a reasonable number of measures. They are entirely mistaken if they suppose the country is hungering for this enormous amount of ill-digested legislation. The country wants to he well administered, but does not want all these Bills thrown down its throat to give it chronic indigestion without any opportunity of discussing them in the proper way. I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Ashford that we must not, except in very exceptional circumstances, say, when the Bill has been in Committee 20 or 30 days, accept the guillotione as a principle on this side of the House. It is within the knowledge of the House that on the Territorial Reserve Forces Bill, where there was no suggestion of any obstruction, and when Members on all sides of the House, though they disagreed on many details of the measure, were eager to support the Secretary of State for War in his efforts to improve the Army, guillotine Motions were put down before there were any Amendments on the Paper, and before there was any whisper of obstruction. It is necessary for the humble Member on the back benches to raise his voice against this practice which is creeping in of destroying the liberties of the House of Commons, which I am sure hon. Members are desirous of maintaining, by acquiescing in these guillotine Resolutions.

This afternoon we spent about four hours in discussing the Housing and Town Planning Bill, and if four hours are neces- sary to discuss the case of a guillotine Resolution on such a Bill as that—a Bill the principle of which all parties are agreed on—I think a greater amount of time ought certainly to be taken to discuss the guillotine Resolution on a Bill such as this, which is one of the most revolutionary measures that has been brought before the House since this Parliament was elected. It proposes that in eight days' Committee we are to discuss a proposal which has for its object the raising of eighty or ninety millions sterling for the purpose of facilitating the transfer of land belonging to landlords in Ireland to tenant-purchasers. It is a Bill of great length, containing 65 clauses, and there are 29 pages of Amendments clown to it. Can anyone honestly say he thinks eight days in Committee is sufficient? It is not as if these Amendments have been put down entirely by hon. Members on this side; they are in the names of Gentlemen who represent all sections of the House. Hon. Members opposite have put down Amendments to safeguard the English taxpayers' interests. Hon. Members for Ireland have put down Amendments to protect the interest of the tenant-purchasers, and hon. Members here have put down a large number of Amendments which they honestly think will improve the Bill and eliminate some of its most objectionable features. All these Members will desire that their Amendments should be discussed. It is not as if only one section of the House is opposed to the Bill. We know hon. Members below the Gangway are not opposed to it, but they desire many important Amendments, and eight days in Committee is miserably insufficient for such a highly contentious Bill. It is not as if the second reading lasted three or four days, and an exhaustive discussion had taken place; only a day and a half were spent on the second reading, and many hon. Members from Ulster were absolutely shut out from speaking. Distinguished Members on these benches who have an intimate knowledge of the subject were also unable to speak. I myself wished to speak. Perhaps it did not matter that I did not speak, though I am in some way connected with Ireland. But it shows that the time which was given for the second reading was not at all superfluous.

I wish to run through the various clauses of the Bill, and to show that the time in the vast majority of cases must be inadequate to discuss some of the most important provisions of the Bill. The first day, which represents only six and a half hours, is to be given to discuss the amount of the purchase annuity to be paid by the tenant. That is a matter to which hon. Members below the Gangway attach very great importance, and quite rightly, and I consider that six and a half hours is not enough to secure adequate discussion. We also have the Committee stage of the financial Resolution. Of course that will not be reached, and the only result of that will be that on the next day the whole time will be taken up with the Report stage of the financial Resolution, and we shall not discuss at all the new 3 per cent. stock, a very important question indeed; and, what is even more important, we shall not discuss at all that vital proposal that in future purchase agreements the landlords should be obliged to sell and take, not cash, but stock, of depreciated value. We have this revolutionary proposal passed under the guillotine without any discussion whatever. Then, on the third day, we have the very important question of the bonus. I admit that is put first on the agenda for the day, and probably it will receive discussion, but I think very inadequate discussion. The second proposal, which will place a large burden upon the English Exchequer, will not be discussed at all. If English Members realised that this large disability, which will be placed on the English Exchequer after the Development Grant is exhausted, will pass without any discussion whatever, they would join with me in pressing the Government to give more time.

When I come to the fourth day the time becomes perfectly ludicrous. Three and a half hours are to be given to the zones. The zones were one of the main provisions of the Act of 1903, which were to protect the English taxpayer and the landlord, and here we have the calm proposal that in three and a half hours we should discuss the whole question. I press the Government to give, at any rate, a whole Parliamentary day to it. On the next day we have to go at railway speed, because we are given two and a half hours to discuss sixteen clauses. I do not say that they are all of vast importance, but they are all clauses of substance, and two and a half hours to discuss 16 clauses is an inadequate amount of time. Then, on the next day, we have six and a half hours given to what must result in a discussion on the question whether a man should be allowed to have more than one holding or not, and what he should do with trees on a holding, and there are other questions of subsidiary interest. I main- tain that the question of mining rights is one of great importance. The non-reservation of sporting rights is also one of the most important questions in the whole Bill. If a landlord is allowed to reserve the sporting rights you induce him to stay in the country. The principle of compulsory purchase cannot possibly be discussed at all in Committee. It is the sixth clause on the agenda of the day, and it is absolutely impossible, unless we give up the right to discuss other important matters, that compulsory purchase can be discussed at all. Surely the Chief Secretary will see that more time should be allowed to discuss that matter. On the next day we have five hours given to 11 clauses. That is absolutely inadequate for the discussion of the revolution to be carried out in connection with the Congested Districts Board. Although there is a nominated majority of one on the Board, you are going practically to hand over the Board to elected representatives instead of having nominated members. That may be right or wrong, I cannot discuss the matter on its merits now, but to say that you are going to discuss the whole question of the congested districts in five hours is really to play with the House of Commons. I do not hesitate to say so. A quarter of the day is to be given to clauses 51 to 57. Seven clauses are to be passed in an hour—that is to say, we are to have about 8½ minutes to pass each clause. I do not suppose any very illuminating discussion can take place in that time. On the last day but one in Committee a Parliamentary day is given to the discussion of the machinery of compulsory purchase, and, therefore, we have the curious situation arising that the machinery of compulsory purchase is to have 6½ hours discussion, but we are not allowed sufficient time to discuss the principle of compulsory purchase. No doubt the Chief Secretary will give us some information in regard to that proposal. There is one day given to the matters dealt with in clauses 58 to 60. On the eighth day we are to discuss four pages of new clauses. It is obvious that not more than one or two of the new clauses can be discussed in that time, and some of them are of very great and vital importance to the principles of the Bill, and to hon. Members in Opposition. Then we are given two days for the review of all this work on the report stage. We are on that stage to discuss the principle of compulsory purchase, and whether any new burden should be put on the Treasury or not, and, further, whether it is right and fair to take a man's property and not pay him in cash for it. Surely two days are absurdly inadequate for this important work. Finally, one day is given for the third reading of the Bill. That, I think, is a fair and sufficient amount of time, but the time allowed for the Committee stage and the Report stage is absolutely inadequate.

What is the position we are led to in connection with these proposals? We are absolutely forced to the conclusion that the Government must either drop the Bill or give more time for its consideration. If you approach the question impartially, you cannot come to any other conclusion. On the Notice Paper there are Amendments standing in the names of two hon. Members who do not act with the Opposition to the effect that it is a waste of time when we have the contentious Finance Bill to discuss to go on with a measure of this sort which the Government must, if they wish to pass it, push through without any proper discussion of the provisions contained in it. Why, therefore, does the Government go on with this Bill with this absurdly inadequate time allotted to it? We are forced to the conclusion that they do it, not because they believe in the Bill, not indeed because they want the Bill to pass, but because they are obliged by their masters, who sit below the Gangway from Ireland, to go on with the Bill. We say loyal supporters of the Government who have set their hearts on another Bill are told that they cannot have their Bill, even although they voted for the second reading of the Finance Bill, and yet hon. Members below the Gangway who voted against the second reading of the Finance Bill get the Bill they want, and in the way they want it. That is not the way the people of this country wish to see business carried on. They wish to see measures passed because they are expedient in the interests of good government. It appears to me that the Government must give more time for the discussion of this Bill or drop it altogether. I beg to move the Amendment.

I beg to second the Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend. We who represent the Unionists of Ireland are bound to protest in the strongest possible manner against the proposal contained in the Resolution now under consideration. We do so in the first place as Members of this House, because we are strongly opposed to the infringement of its privileges and its powers as a legislative assembly. This Government since they have been in office, have shown less respect for the House of Commons than any Government that have ever preceded them. In saying that, I do not except Oliver Cromwell. It is true that he turned the Members out of their chamber, and locked the doors against them, but this Government are doing worse than that. They are reducing the proceedings of this House as a legislative assembly to an absolute farce. When right hon. Gentlemen who now occupy seats on the Treasury Bench were in Opposition they were most indignant at any proposal to limit Debate on any subject, although it may have been discussed in the most exhaustive manner. It is impossible to resist the conclusion that all their indignation was simulated when we remember the lengths to which they carried the gagging process since they have been in office. I do not propose to enter upon the history of this Question, but I may remind the House in regard to this matter that we have witnessed what I might describe as a sort of political "Rake's Progress." The Government have curtailed debate to an extent which this House never witnessed throughout its long history. Under their auspices legislation by guillotine has become a settled practice of this House; and, encouraged I suppose by the sub-serviency of their followers, they have made every successive Resolution more drastic than the one which preceded it. I do not think that hon. Members, at all events who sit on these benches, will dispute that the Resolution now before the House is the most violent in its encroachment on the freedom of debate of all the series of Resolutions which have been proposed by this Government since it came into office. This Motion is far worse than the Resolution which we have been discussing this afternoon. The Housing Bill, to which that Resolution referred, has been discussed fully by a Standing Committee of the House, but the Irish Land Bill has not been considered by any Committee. It is full of the most controversial clauses. The Unionists of Ireland, whether they are farmers or landlords or labourers or traders, are opposed to this Bill in its entirety. Even the Nationalists themselves, I understand, are divided on this Bill, and really only a fraction of the people of Ireland are of opinion that the Bill ought to be passed. I understand also that hon. Members below the Gangway who sit on the opposite benches entertain a dislike to it. But, in spite of all these considerations, the Government have the audacity to propose that the Committee stage of this Bill should be compressed into eight Parliamentary days.

I would ask hon. Members to consider this matter on its merits. I am not going to appeal to the Members of the Government; they are drunk with power, and utterly incorrigible. I confess I do not understand upon what principle they condemn coercion as applied to criminals in Ireland, when they do not hesitate to apply coercion to freedom of speech in the drastic way in which they do in this House. I suppose it is one of those convolutions of Radical politics which no ordinary person can ever be expected to understand. Although I know it is hopeless to expect the Government to look at this matter with an impartial mind, I would invite their supporters to look at the Question for themselves. The Bill consists of 65 clauses. There is not one of these clauses which does not require the most careful consideration. Yet the Government propose to allot only eight Parliamentary days for the Committee stage. It is within the power of the Government, as I understand, to put down this Bill for consideration on Friday. If they adopt that course, it will permit only 40 hours for the consideration of the Bill. Even if they give us eight full Parliamentary days other than Fridays, the utmost time allowed would be only 52 hours. On the most favourable assumption, the time for the consideration of these 65 clauses works out at an average of 48 minutes to each clause. This is a Bill which deserves and demands consideration, not only clause by clause, but line by line. I find that there are 3,120 lines in the Bill, and the Government propose to allow only 2½ minutes for the consideration of each line of the measure. We have only to look at the Amendments which are put down on the Paper to get an idea of the preposterous nature of the Government proposals. The Amendment Tabled by no means represent the full number that will be forthcoming. There are many other Amendments to be put down. But taking even those of which notice has been given up to the present, I find that there are no fewer than 399 Amendments already on the Paper. Even if you assume that there will be no more, all the time that the Government propose to allow is 6½ minutes for each Amendment. I ask the House further to consider this fact; This Bill has been brought in ostensibly for remedying the defects in the Act of 1903.

It is asserted by those who support the Bill that the defects in the Act of 1903 were due to the insufficient consideration of that measure when it was passing through the House. That is one of their allegations. I need only point out that the Land Act of 1903, which contains 103 clauses, occupied, as the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister informed us, 10 days in Committee, 16 days in all; and it must be remembered that it was very largely, if not entirely, an agreed measure, only four Divisions taking place during the whole of the Committee stage. It is quite true there were some 200 Amendments down on the Paper, but almost every one of those Amendments was either withdrawn or accepted. At all events, there were only four Divisions, while this Bill is a most highly contentious measure. When that is considered, it will be apparent that the time allocated is absurdly inadequate. If we look at the time table attached to the Resolution we shall see more clearly than ever how ridiculous is the whole proposal. As my hon. Friend says, it is proposed to allow one day for the consideration of clause 1, which proposes to increase the amount of purchase annuity and the rate of interest payable in respect of advances made in pursuance of all future purchase agreements. This clause is the basis of the Government's proposals with regard to future land purchase operations, and if the Government mean to adhere to the provisions of their Bill, they will have to encounter the most determined opposition from the Unionist Members from Ireland to any increase in the tenant's annuity. That much is certain; and if Nationalist declarations mean anything at all, the Government will have to meet also the opposition of hon. Members below the Gangway. There are 26 Amendments to this clause already on the Paper, and, having regard to the importance of the issue, the time allotted for it is altogether insufficient. On the second day it is proposed to take three clauses, which embody financial proposals as to the issue of stock, and which obviously demand the fullest consideration. The points to be determined on this clause are very numerous and important. There are questions whether advances should be made in guaranteed stock instead of cash; whether there should be any distinction made between "pending agreements" and "future agreements"; as to the price at which the stock should be issued to vendors, and there are many other points which I will not stop to enumerate, because they are indicated on the Paper of Amendments. It will be evident., that a single day—whether of five hours or six and a half hours—will not suffice for the determination of all these questions. Then we come to the third day. The Government actually propose to dispose of nine clauses on that day, including all the complicated provisions with regard to the bonus. That will bring them to the end of the first part of their Bill, which deals with the subject of land purchase finance. If they had limited their measure to the one purpose of removing the difficulties from the way of land purchase, operating on the lines of the Act of 1903, the Government might have reasonably expected the House to complete the consideration of their Bill in eight days. But, as the House knows, they have gone much further than that, and having given three days only for the consideration of their financial proposals, they propose to cram into five days a mass of provisions which are intended to carry out the predatory ideas of the United Irish League.

The vital question of the practical abolition of the zones, as well as the important questions of the prohibition of advances if a tenancy was created after 1st January, 1908, and the satisfaction of the claims of the landless men, have all to he disposed of in a space of three and a half hours on the fourth day. But the proposals with regard to the fourth day are absolutely preposterous. Will it be believed that this Resolution actually contemplates the compression into two hours of the consideration of no fewer than 16 clauses. That is bad enough, but it by no means represents the worst feature of this gagging proposal. One of the most controversial parts of this Bill is that which gives extensive powers of compulsory purchase to the Estates Commissioners. The clause which embodies this proposal is No. 39, and it is hardly credible, but the Government have taken the most effectual means of preventing any discussion of that most important clause. It is among the clauses which are down for consideration on the fifth day, but it occupies the lowest place in the list—that is to say, there are five clauses to be considered before the question of compulsory purchase is reached, and it is obvious that under this arrangement it will be absolutely impossible to give any consideration whatever to this clause. Then we come to Part III. of the Bill, which deals with the congested districts. The provisions in this part of the Bill involve financial questions and constitutional questions as well of the very highest importance. The proposal to reconstitute the Congested Districts Board upon an elective basis, which we say will mean the handing over of one-third of Ireland and immense sums of public money to the control of the United Irish League, has to be disposed of by nine o'clock on the sixth day. That is a generous allowance of five hours for the 11 clauses which are necessary to give effect to the Government proposals. It is only necessary to point out that in making this proposal the Government are flying in the face of the highest administrative and Constitutional authorities to make it evident that they are reducing the proceedings of this House to a farce in this Resolution. They give just one hour and a half for the consideration of the powers, including the power of compulsory purchase, which are proposed to be conferred upon this board, and altogether this part of the Resolution shows the most contemptuous disregard for the rights of this House. I observe that a new feature has been introduced into this Resolution. It is proposed that "a Motion may be made by the Government to leave out any clause or consecutive clauses of the Bill before the consideration of any Amendments to the clause or clauses in Committee." If that means that the Government intend to drop any part of the Bill I think we ought to be informed of it now before we are asked to settle the terms of this Resolution. The seventh day is given to the consideration of the machinery of compulsory purchase, and the eighth day to the rest of the Bill—comprising five clauses—and the schedules and all the new clauses, "and any other matter necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion."

Looking at the terms of this Resolution and the allocation of the time proposed in the table that is attached to it, I can only regard it as an attempt to stifle all discussion upon a Bill which is of enormous importance, not only to the Irish farmers, but to the British and Irish taxpayers as well. The Land Bill attacks and undermines the fundamental principle of the land settlement which was embodied in the Act of 1903. It would absolutely stop land purchase on voluntary lines, and it will inevitably inaugurate a new era of strife in Ireland. This is a measure which the Government attempt to force through this House with a guillotine Resolution of unexampled severity. We have not heard much lately of the crusade which was to be conducted against the other House. The stalwarts who were so eager to join the First Commissioner of Works in his hunting foray across the Lobby seem to have lost all their enthusiasm. I have no doubt we all know what that is due to. No doubt it is due to the results of the various bye-elections in the country. Even the warmest supporters of the Government in this House cannot be blind to the inevitable consequences of the policy of legislation by guillotine, for legislation of this kind only goes to destroy, as this does, the character of this House as a legislative and representative Chamber, and only serves to strengthen the position of the other House in the country. It is clear to us who sit on this side of the House that we are to be debarred from any real and practical consideration of this Land Bill, and that we shall be prevented by the terms of this Resolution from discussing innumerable points of detail which we are anxious to raise. I protest against the stifling of discussion in his House. We who oppose this Bill shall rely with confidence upon the other House of Legislature to give it that searching examination which it requires, and to insist upon Amendments which are essential in the best interests of Ireland; or, if those are refused, to throw out the Bill altogether.

The keen interest that English Liberals feel for this Bill—[MR. JOHN ROCHE: And Tories?]—is the subject which so far in this Debate impresses my mind. Out of 365 followers of the right hon. Gentleman there being up to the last few minutes but five Members of his party in this House.

We are told that they mean to carry this Bill through. I venture to say that out of the 360 or so who have been absent there are not six men who know anything of the contents of this Bill, but the Prime Minister can undoubtedly count upon the ignorant and servile allegiance of his followers, and if he could not have done so I do not believe that he could have proposed these guillotine resolutions that are before us this evening. He knows that with or without debate they will carry this Bill, and my own anticipation is that the majority of that party will, at the end of the limited time placed at our disposal for discussion under the guillotine Resolution, know as much about it as they know now. The Prime Minister gave as his justification for this short period of time being allotted for discussion, the instance of the Land Act of 1903. Surely the answer of my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment is the true-answer to that argument. I would remind the Prime Minister that the Land Act of 1903 was by months previous discussion in Ireland prepared for, that for the first time in the history of that most controversial of all forms of legislation—Irish land—that men in Ireland, Unionists and Nationalists, landlords and tenants, had met together at the Land Conference, and that they had agreed upon certain fundamental principles which formed the basis of that Act, and that when at last they came to Parliament it was really to get the sanction of Parliament for that policy which had been agreed upon in Ireland.

Could there be a greater contrast between the precedent which he cites and the Bill which is before us now. Here you have a Bill as contentious, not only in its detail, but also in its main principles, as well as vast in its scope. I venture to say there is not one of the controversies that have raged on land legislation in Ireland since the year 1881 that is not reawakened by the Bill before us, and other controversies which were then undreamt of and which are also brought in by the Bill. If ever there war a Bill which needed calm and prolonged discussion in this House it is the Bill before us. I would like to indicate how great in reach and compass is this Land Bill, and to summarise quite shortly some of the groups of subjects which are dealt with by it. I will not go into the clauses, but I think anybody who examines the four or five groups of subjects contained in the Bill will admit them to be matters raising momentous issues, and issues which are political, national, and economic. First of all, there is, of course, the finance of land purchase. No doubt everybody in Ireland was agreed on one point of policy that is embodied in this Bill, that the finances of the Land Act of 1903 needed amendment. There is the one point to be raised. Tacked down to these finance clauses is the whole remainder of the Bill. Everyone of the other subjects raised is highly contentious. I venture to say the proceeding was not altogether an honest one. It certainly is a disingenuous one, the proceeding of tacking on as a bribe to those who without bribes would reject the rest of the Bill—this finance portion which would appeal to the pockets of a great many men who in principle were otherwise deeply opposed to the Bill. Personally, I have no financial interest in it; but if I had such an interest I should not accept the bribe which is offered. Anyhow, here are these financial provisions. If you were to take those alone, and if you could bring them before the people of England and make the people realise that they are embarking on the biggest investment and, to some extent, the largest speculation they have ever attempted in the way of legislation, I cannot but think that you would have eight days allotted, not for the whole of the Bill, but for the finance of the Bill alone, in order to secure, first of all, that the State should have its proper security; secondly, that the terms offered to tenants should be such as to ensure their loyal adhesion to the Act about to be passed; and, thirdly, terms which were fair to the other interests involved. Three days are allotted to the finance of the Bill. I consider that most insufficient.

The next group of subjects is the procedure and the conditions of land purchase—in other words, the whole of Part II., which includes clauses 14 to 39. The first importance of Part II. is that it simply tears up the Act of 1902. I use no lesser word, because it does strike at some of the vital principles which made that Act possible. I will mention only two. One is the principle of the zones. That principle is abolished. I know that the Chief Secretary said in one of his speeches that it is not abolished; but let me put it in this way. It lies within the discretion of the Commissioners to abolish the principle of the zones in every case, and that, to my mind, is the practical abolition of the principle. The essential point is that under the zone system you take the judicial rent al the basis of the future instalments, allowing, however, a certain margin which would ensure security to the State and make the tenant-purchaser's annuity a reasonable one which he could afford to pay. The zones were the machinery by which voluntary purchase could be carried out. It was through their automatic working that you arrived at a voluntary agreement between landlord and tenant. They are abolished. Further, the principle of com- pulsion is, for the first time, brought in, and not only in congested districts, where the argument for it is, to my mind, a great deal stronger than in any other part of Ireland, but it is brought in all over the country. Moreover, there is no appeal from the Judicial Commissioner, except on points of law. The third group of subjects is land tenure—Part V., clause 61. Under that clause you have a revision not only of the Act of 1881 is so far modified that the Act of 1903, but also of the Act of 1881. The whole of the fair rent part of future tenants are no longer to be exempted from its operation. I do not discuss, and I have no right to discuss, its merits on this occasion. All I say is that it is a very great change, and that part of one day only is allotted to that large question.

Now I come to that part of the Bill which, to my mind, is of more far-reaching consequence than all the rest put together, and that is the part dealing with the relief of congestion. This is a subject at least, if no other, which I could wish might be approached and discussed dispassionately, as I think it ought to be. It is not a question of the rights of landlords nearly so much as it is a question of the economic future of Ireland. I am confident that whatever legislation we pass for the congested districts of Ireland will react upon the whole of Ireland, and cannot be confined to any restricted districts. It is a question of extraordinary difficulty and intricacy. It is a problem that was before the Royal Commission for I forget how many years; the evidence upon it fills eight or nine Blue Books; and the Report of the Commission alone is an exceedingly full volume, dealing with most delicate questions on which it is extremely difficult to arrive at at any unanimity. Do not let it be said, as I think the Chief Secretary said in one of his speeches, that "this Bill represents the unanimous opinion of the Commission." Far from it. It is quite true that the Bill is based upon the Report of the Commission, but some of the most important signatories added minutes of dissent, which practically undid all that they had done in signing the Report. The question is difficult as regards both the policy to be pursued and the machinery for carrying out that policy. The question arises, How are you to deal with this really pressing and urgent problem which meets you along that barren district on the Western sea-board of Ireland? Is it to be by the migration of congested holders and the enlargement of holdings? If so, is the land for the migrants to be obtained in the congested districts or in other parts of Ireland also? As to the machinery, are you to keep the Congested Districts Board which now exists or are you to abolish it? If you keep it, is it to be for certain purposes only, or is it to be given enlarged powers over a wider area? All these questions raise very large issues—political, financial, and economic. I will refer to two of the great economic questions raised under this part of the Bill. One is a farmer's question; it is not political, or it ought not to be. Are the grazing lands of Ireland to be broken up in small holdings? If so, what effect will that have upon the whole rural economy of Ireland? In particular, what effect will it have on the greatest of Irish industries—the cattle industry? I do not discuss it. I merely point out that there is this problem, and a very large problem it is. Secondly, among the economic problems I would point to this one: Is it for the interest of Ireland economically that one-third of the whole of Ireland should be treated as congested districts? That is a proposal of the Bill. Hitherto the congested districts have formed a limited area. Now the congested districts are, under the Bill, spread over nine counties, and comprise 6,000,000 of acres, and form one-third, or rather more, of Ireland. You come now to the central problem of the whole congested districts question—that is, what is to be the constitution and the character of the Board that deals with this infinitely difficult and perplexing problem. That raises all the issues which I have mentioned, political, financial, and economic alike. I will merely tell the House what the Government proposal is as to machinery—that is to say, the body that is to relieve the congestion. Part 3 abolishes the existing Congested Districts Board. It constitutes a new Board, that is to have £250,000 a year of public money to carry on its work. Its powers include the powers and the perils of the purchase and redistribution of land. This Board can buy what land they like, and sell that land again when they like and to whom they like. They can fix the price in the first instance. There is a very inadequate appeal against that Board, and the body itself is so constituted that there is on it, I will not say an actual majority, but a working majority of elected members. The representatives of the farmers within these congested districts have got the control of this enormous amount of public money. In other words, they have got the absolute power to buy and sell what they wish, and to decide what land they will take, and to whom they will give it. In other words, you have a committee of beneficiaries entrusted with this enormous control of State funds. All that deserves very full consideration. I do not think anyone will deny that. How much time is to be allotted to the discussion of part 3 of this Bill. Clauses 40 to 47 are very one of them contentious. Not one of them has ever been debated in this House, and I would add, in second reading Debate—when the right hon. Gentleman brought in his Bill, he passed over in a very few words the whole of the congested district Question—the main knotty problem that the country has to deal with. How much time is allotted to this? Will the House believe it—simply one day? Part 3 alone would make a great Bill in itself. It raises the most grave of economic problems in Ireland, and that which is of paramount importance to the future welfare of the country. It ought to be discussed fully. I think it might be discussed dispassionately, but fully I am sure of. What confidence can the House have in the Government scheme that they rush through, or propose to rush through, with such indecent haste on a question of such magnitude as this? I have not attempted to discuss any of these things, I hope, on their merits. All I have attempted to do is to show the magnitude of the issues, and the inadequacy of the time allotted for their discussion.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down describes, and correctly describes, the congested districts portion of this Bill as one of the most important parts of it. But I must say I have not in all my experience in this House heard a greater travesty of a Bill than the hon. Gentleman gave us. In the first place he stated—and I am amazed that an hon. Gentleman of his intelligence and accuracy should make such a statement—that this new Congested Districts Board which it is proposed to set up is composed of the majority of those farmers—

That the working majority represents the farmers. Then he went on to say that this Board, so composed, had the decision of the price of land which the Board had to buy. They have no more voice under this Bill in fixing the price of land than he or I have. That is e monstrous misrepresentation. I give that as an instance to show how utterly inaccurate is this description of this Bill. The hon. Member, with perfect truth, said that there is no problem more urgent, and I almost say, more desperate, in Ireland, and that needs the application of some remedy than the question of the congested districts. What is his proposal? To throw every obstacle and obstruction in the way of any proposal made by the present Government.

That misrepresents me. My proposal was that we should have more time to discuss the question.

The hon. Gentleman had better become a Home Ruler. To propose that we should have more time to discuss a proposal of this magnitude he knows is an impossibility in a British Parliament. It is another way of proposing that we shall adjourn the discussion of this question to the Greek Kalends. For my part, I am grateful to the Government for giving us the time they are giving us to discuss this vital disorder, this desperate necessity. When will the hon. Member be able to insure, if we accept his proposal, that we shall get an opportunity for discussing the matter? I will be no party to scoffing at the Welsh Members, who have been most generous in dealing with this matter, and I hope it will be given to us to show some mark of our appreciation. [Laughter.] It is all very fine to make this subject one of sneers and laughter. But the hon. Member for the University of Cambridge knows something of Ireland. He does not dare to attempt to deny that it is an urgent and extremely urgent matter. How does he propose to settle it? He uses extraordinary language to condemn the Government, the most vehement, even the most violent language, because they have the indecency to tack on to these proposals what he described as "a bribe to the Irish landlords," the sellers of land in Ireland. If I had used that expression I should have been called very violently to order from above the Gangway I have no doubt. What I want to know is this. Is it the hon. and learned Member's proposal that a bribe is to be given to the Irish landlords, and that nothing is to be given to the tenants?

Nothing of the sort! I desire that if it is a bribe it should go to both, but the bribe consists in trying to induce the landlords to pass something which conscientiously they cannot pass, but for these financial proposals.

But for the bribe! The hon. Member has a very low opinion of the Irish landlords. He is afraid they may accept the bribe. I hope and trust they will.

They would be much wiser if they did, because I warned the hon. Member he may go farther and fare worse. If they defeat this Bill, which, whatever its imperfections may be, contents many landlords, when a Tory Government comes into power they may find the cold shoulder turned upon them, and that the Tory Government are not so willing to give them a bribe. But to come back to this question of the congested districts, which is one of the features of the Bill to which I attach most importance, I ask the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge, Does he not feel some duty, and does he not owe it to those unhappy people over whom he shed tears of compassion and sympathy, to propose some alternative? What is his alternative to the congested provisions of this Bill? He used very sinister language in condemning the action of the Government in furnishing under this Bill, when newly organised, the sum of £230,000 of public money per annum to the new Board to deal with congestion.

The hon. and learned Gentleman dealt in very bitter language with this £230,000 per annum which it is proposed to give to the Board to redeem these districts from poverty. That is the object of this provision.

That is the object, and I ask, Is it not the most generous proposal ever made by a Government to deal with these congested districts? But the hon. and learned Gentleman objects to the machinery. Why? Does he not see that the present machinery is ineffective Does he not know that the present machinery has practically broken down under the load of work which has been cast upon it? It was a machinery devised as far back as 1891 for totally different purposes, for a kind of experimental fiddling with the evils of these congested districts. It was only intended as a beginning, and once this system of re-stripping the land, and redistributing the land in the congested districts got under way the volume of work cast upon the Congested Districts Board absolutely broke down the present machinery. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows the present machinery is absolutely incompetent to deal with the work.

Order, order. The hon. Member is getting too much upon the merits of the Bill, instead of keeping to the allocation of time to be given to the Bill.

:I submit to your ruling most dutifully, but I was amazed to hear the hon. Member for Cambridge making an elaborate second reading speech dealing with all the merits; and what I am doing at this present moment is trying to answer his criticism upon the machinery. I am following his speech sentence by sentence, and clause by clause, and I really only wish to contradict certain mis-statements about machinery which the hon. and learned Member made calculated to prejudice the House in regard to the new Board. He objects to farmers having a voice in the machinery which is to affect the whole future of the congested districts. He said these farmers and elected members were to control the Board and its finances. That is absolutely false, and the hon. and learned Member must either not have read the Bill at all, or, if he has read it, he does not understand it. There is an Administrative Committee—and some friends of mine will find a good deal of fault with that proposal—with an official majority of 2 to 1 controlling the money, and, therefore, all the objections which the hon. and learned Member made, and all the arguments he put forward, saying that there is not time to deal with the discussion of this measure, were founded on misrepresentation as to the character of the Bill. There is one other criticism of the hon. and learned Member that I should like to say a word upon. He said this is a great departure from all previous principles that ruled and controlled congested districts. He said in former years congested districts were comparatively limited areas scattered over the country, while now it is proposed to convert one-third of Ireland into congested districts. We have been pointing out year after year for the last ten years in this House that it was precisely because congested districts under previous Acts were scattered areas that it was impossible to remedy the condition of things. What was done was, where you found a congested population you made it a congested district, while tracts of grazing lands available for remedying the state of congestion were placed outside the administration of the Board. You said, as was said to the ancient Hebrews, "You are called upon to make bricks with out straw"; you told this Board to remedy congestion, and you made it impossible for them to do so by excluding them from any control over the grazing lands. Take the plains of Meath and the great grazing ranches of Galway as an illustration. They were excluded from the Congested Districts Board, although they were in the very vicinity of crowded populations and regions which required migration and enlargement of holdings. What the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland is doing is this. He is proposing an addition with a view to making the task of a Congested District Board a possible task, and the hon. and learned Gentleman, while he weeps tears of sympathy for the sufferings of the people in the congested districts, would deny to the Government the power of making this absolutely necessary alteration. The speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman, in my opinion, was the speech of a man who wishes to see everything done to destroy every portion of this Bill except the portion which would put more millions into the pockets of the Irish landlords. We, on the other hand, approach the subject in a spirit of give-and-take. We consented, and are willing to support that portion of the Bill which will be for the benefit of the Irish landlord, but we claim, and we will insist, that the claims and the sufferings of the tenant farmers are not forgotten. We think it is a dog-in-the-manger policy for the hon. and learned Member for Cambridge to pretend to be a great expert in his knowledge of Ireland and to support the portion of the Bill which would get money for the landlords and to oppose every portion that would do anything for the Irish tenants, and to indicate that such portions must be obstructed. I do not want to make anything in the nature of a long speech; but speeches of the character made by the hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Butcher) simply amount to a desire, not only to kill this Bill, but to abandon indefinitely all hope of any measure dealing with the congested districts or the grievances of Irish tenants. It is absurd for the hon. Member to talk about the necessity of allowing discussions upon such a Bill as this.

I agree it would he desirable if we could have several weeks to discuss this Bill, but this is a British Parliament, and they will not give us the time. This is the third year in which we have been given the promise of this legislation in the King's Speech, and are we to consent to another indefinite postponement until the current and tide in English business slackens, when we can have several weeks to discuss an Irish Land Bill? The result of that would be that the Irish tenants would despair of getting anything until they had another Land League agitation and turned Ireland upside down. I was charged the other day with using an expression, which I did use, at a great meeting in the county of Tipperary—and a pretty lively county it is—to the effect that if this Bill were rejected or closured we should be obliged to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war. I repeat that statement in this House to-day. What is the effect of the speeches we have heard from the hon. Member for Cambridge University? It means that in the past we have been taught that we should never get a hearing for Irish Land Bills until there has been a great agitation in Ireland, and then the House of Commons would be forced to listen to the Irish representatives and thrust upon one side all English business. The Government propose to give twelve days to a Bill which ought not to be contentious if hon. Members acted in accordance with their own profession of a desire to promote the general good of the people; and now, when the Government propose to give twelve days for the discussion of this Measure, the hon. Member for Cambridge University says he will consent to allow all those clauses that give money to the Irish landlords to pass, but the congested districts clauses and every clause which offers any benefit to the tenants must be indefinitely postponed until English business is so slack that we can afford to give several weeks discussion to an Irish Land Bill. That is sending a very dangerous message to Ireland, and I hope the Government will strongly resist any such policy.

I confess that it is altogether a new experience for me to sit in this House and hear the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) rebuking the hon. Member for Cambridge University for the vehemence of his language. I have heard the hon. Member for East Mayo use very strong language, and to hear him rebuke my hon. Friend, who is one of the meekest men who addresses this House, for the violence of his language, and for expressing himself with undue vehemence, somewhat surprises me. I know there is no man in Ireland, whatever political party he may belong to, who enjoys, and more deservedly enjoys, a reputation alike for the love of his country and a desire to serve it honestly and impartially, and free from any political bias, than my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University. The hon. Member for East Mayo has made a violent attack upon my hon. Friend and upon those sitting on these benches, for obstructing a long delayed measure of justice to Ireland. A more outrageous charge was never made. My hon. Friend has not obstructed this Motion, and he has only done what in past times hon. Members below the Gangway have frequently done, namely, he has demanded that whatever amount of good there may be in any measure there shall be full and ample time allowed for its consideration. On many occasions I have known hon. Members below the Gangway vote against proposals for shortening Debate simply on the very just ground that the Government has no right, whatever may be the merits of their proposal, to prevent this House from freely discussing it.

I cannot pass over the example which the Prime Minister gave us in moving this Resolution. My hon. Friend behind me pointed out that there is all the difference in the world between the Bill which is to be proceeded with under this Resolution and the parent Act, as the Prime Minister called it—I mean the original Land Act. That Bill was the result of conferences between all the parties concerned in the Government of Ireland, and its passage through this House was brought about by an understanding between the Minister responsible and the various representatives of Ireland, who were naturally interested in the measure. But that is not all. The hon. Member for Cambridge University, who has just been so unfairly attacked, and other hon. Members interested in Ireland, did their best to approach the Chief Secretary and to bring about a conference similar to the one held previously to the passing of the parent Act, but they made all their overtures in vain. Offers were made which were thoroughly bonâ fide in every sense for a conference on this subject of land purchase in Ireland, and those offers were not only not followed up by any attempt to bring them to a real issue, but they were rejected by the Government of the day, and the result is the measure which is now the subject of this Resolution, in regard to which there has been no attempt at conciliation among the different political parties and persons interested in Ireland. Therefore there is no analogy whatever to be drawn between the history of the parent Act and the Bill which we now have under consideration. The hon. Member for East Mayo complained that my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University objected to all the parts of this Bill which assisted the tenants, and was not even prepared graciously to accept those parts which affect the landlords. My hon. Friend made no such objection. What he did was to point out with great fairness that this Bill is a very different measure from the parent Act, which has been quoted so frequently to-night. That measure was not only the result of conferences between contending parties, but it was one which dealt exclusively with the Land question.

The Prime Minister told us this is an amending Bill, but it is not, because it is one which entirely destroys the main principle of the parent Act. It introduces compulsion, whereas the Bill of 1903 was carried through this House as a result of conferences, at which it was agreed to give up the principle of compulsion. This Bill practically destroys the zones. [Cries of "No, no."] To all intents and purposes the clause which my hon. Friend referred to does destroy the zones which were one of the cardinal principles of the Act of 1903. When, as Chief Secretary, I made a proposal on this subject, I was told by Nationalist Members below the Gangway that they would not tolerate any proposal of the kind, because it would compel the tenants to pay something more than what they had hitherto paid. Why are the members of the Nationalist party, as the hon. Member for East Mayo has told us, willing to accept the present proposals? Because they are quite distinct from the other proposals, and the hon. Member tells us that he attaches the greatest importance to them.

What I said was that I attach the greatest importance to the proposals with regard to the congested districts.

That is what I meant. The clause which deals with the congested districts—part 3 of the Bill—ought to be a distinct measure. We were discussing earlier this evening the power to closure an English Bill. That Bill proposed to give the entire power to an old and central authority. But this Bill proposes an entire change. It proposes to give powers to a new body created in a new way. Although the hon. Member for East Mayo says he denies that my hon. Friend is right when he says that this is a principle contrary to popularly elected authorities, there can be no doubt that if popularly elected Members take an interest in their work, they will be in a position to control the popular administration of the Act. The hon. Member might as well describe me as being opposed to these proposals. I will not express my views because this is not the time. But I will say that these are great and large questions, and it is monstrous to ask us to discuss them in four or five hours. I am perfectly certain that if any such proposal had been made by the late Government, hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway on both sides of the House would have opposed it. I fully understand the reasons which induce the Nationalist Members to a display on this occasion of a benevolent attitude towards the Government. They see in the proposals of the Government a concession towards the policy which they have always advocated. They believe that half a loaf is better than no bread. There is one other thing I want to say before I sit down. I want to repeat what was said earlier in the evening with regard to the form of this Motion. On a previous occasion I called attention to the practice of dealing with clauses, so that each one could not be discussed, but in this case the illustration is worse than the other. Here is a Bill of an extremely varied character. There are clauses which set up a new system. My hon. Friends on this side of the House may desire to express their disapproval of some of the clauses and their approval of others, but they are compelled by the Government to express on one Vote their opinion on clauses of which they approve and on clauses of which they disapprove. It seems to us that this is a very serious invasion of the liberties of this House, under which hitherto every clause has been put separately. That is one of the privileges of the House, but it is now denied to us by the proposed procedure. It is very objectionable in the case of a Bill of this kind. It is, I may say, specially objectionable. We ought to have had the opportunity to vote for the clauses of which we approve, and the opportunity to vote against the clauses of which we disapprove. I regard this proposal as unworthy of a great Government, and of the party opposite. I am not going to discuss the provision of the Bill to which part of the Resolution refers. I know that the Government are compelled to carry this Bill. I have no doubt they have been told to do it. The hon. Member for East Mayo with characteristic courage has told the Government that the language he used out of the House he will repeat in it. The Chief Secretary has been told times out of number that he is to be given another chance. This is the other chance. He has been told that this is the opportunity to show himself worthy of the confidence of the Nationalist Members, and if he gets this Bill passed he will have another opportunity to pass something else. We are amazed that the Government should think it right to ask us to discuss a question of this importance in so limited a time. The Bill may have the gravest effect, either for good or for evil, on the Government of Ireland. The discussion on the Bill will become a mere farce—more of a farce than will be the discussions on the English Bill.

I am glad, and I am sure the House shares my feeling, at seeing the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) back once more in his place to deal with Irish business from his own point of view, and I tender him my congratulations on looking so well, so prosperous, and so full of fight. I do not propose to take any part whatever in the somewhat second reading Debate we have had during the discussion this evening. I shall confine myself entirely to the question whether the time which has been allotted under this Resolution to this measure is sufficient. I do not say that it is prolonged, or even ample, but I submit it is sufficient, and I hope to be able to prove it. Let us consider what has been said by way of criticism upon what fell from the Prime Minister with regard to the time occupied by the Bill in 1903. It is true that that Bill was the result, in many of its provisions, of discussions that took place between various parties in Ireland. England was never consulted upon those provisions, although England certainly had to play a very considerable part in that Bill, which was a complete revolution in the mode of dealing with the Irish land question—a wise and proper revolution, in my opinion, but one which, coming for the first time under the attention of the House of Commons, might very well have occupied quite as much time as any other measure of first-class importance. Therefore, I think it is material to observe, in dealing with these questions of Irish land purchase, that a Bill of that kind, introducing an agrarian revolution into Ireland, and providing British credit for the transaction, without any guillotine or allotment of time, occupied only very little more time than is under this guillotine Motion to be devoted to this measure. It is all very well to say that this Bill is highly contentious. It is hon. Gentlemen opposite who make it contentious. This Bill, in my judgment, is a necessary consequence of the important measure of 1903. We hear a great deal about compulsion. Really there is a great deal of rubbish talked about it, but there is no objection whatever, so far as I have been able to ascertain, to compulsion. The only question is as to the machinery by which the price is to be fixed. Everybody knew that the time would come when compulsion would have to be considered. The right hon. Gentleman very wisely postponed the day, but it was bound to come, as was inevitable, to everybody who really considered the result of that far-reaching measure, under which half the land of Ireland has been actually transferred or is in the course of transfer. Can it be wondered at that the time should have come to implement or complement—or any other phrase you may use—this Irish Land Bill so as to bring it in accordance with the actual facts of the situation? This Bill, I quite agree, is of vast importance. I cannot exaggerate its importance. It bas been cheerfully said by Gentlemen opposite that nobody here believes in it. These cheap statements are easily made, and I will not condescend even to give them a flat contradiction. I say that this is a Bill of vast and enormous importance. Again, it has been said that we only brought it in in order to purchase the votes of the Irish Members below the Gangway. Even if that were our motive, and if we entered into that bargain, the goods have not been delivered. Still, that does not in the slightest way affect my mind as to the importance of this Question or as to the duty of this House, having passed the Act of 1903, which introduced this agrarian revolution, to see that it is carried out in the wisest, quickest, and best possible manner. I come now to the question of time. The first three days are to be given to the financial part of the Bill. Of course, on that question Ireland presents a united front. I do not see how there can be very much difference of opinion with regard to the demand made upon the Treasury. But everybody will agree that a question of this sort is not one that will gain very much by prolonged discussion. It is a question of how much and how far the British Treasury feels itself justified in going, having regard not only to the justice of the claim—and that has to be considered—but having regard also to the other claims made upon it by other parts of the country. Everbody knows that what is called a financial question—a Treasury question—has nothing to gain by being discussed for weeks or months or even years. It has to he settled on a businesslike footing; it is a question of how much; and that is a point which, I think, can be very fully dealt with in the number of days we propose to allot to it. As for the financial Resolution, I may point out there was no discussion at all on the financial Resolution of the Bill of 1903. There could not be any rational discussion of this Resolution, because it is shaped in such a way as to enable all Irish demands to be met, otherwise it would be out of order to make those demands. It is, therefore, idle to suppose that the financial Resolution will—unless for motives of obstruction, which I altogether repudiate—occupy a single moment of your time. Then you come to the clauses. Take clause 5, which relates to the law with reference to the bonus to vendors. We start with that very difficult and thorny question. Then comes clause 6, which relieves the Irish ratepayer from the burden of rates. That is, I quite agree, a question for hon. Members behind me rather more than for Gentlemen from Ireland in front. It is part of the bargain, although it is absolutely contrary to the provisions of the Act, that that burden should be taken off Ireland. The ratepayers' enormous growing burden of a most terrible character is to be borne by the broad breast of the Imperial Exchequer. I do not think that the discussion upon that need occupy much time. Other clauses relate to the Labourers Act, and I do not think when we come to them they will prove of a contentious character. Then we come to the fourth day, when three clauses of the Bill will be first discussed, 14, 15, and 16. They involve what is called the zone, and that is admittedly of a controversial nature, but the controversy between us at present is what my Bill does. I hear that it abolishes the zone; that I most strenuously deny. There are hon. Members below the Gangway who wish it did. They will present their view, and there are Gentlemen above the Gangway who are determined to maintain the zone, which they think endangered by the provisions of my Bill, and they will present theirs, but we have not an eternity, and therefore we cannot allow an indefinite time for a discussion such as that. Fortunately this Question comes at the very beginning of the day, and will at once receive consideration. Clauses 17 to 33, which form the second part of discussion, may seem a considerable dose, but only four of these clauses can by any possibility be said to be contentious at all; many of them—clauses 24, 25, 28, 29, 31, and 32—have no Amendments, and out of the 300 or the large number of Amendments, they receive no attention at all. The remaining clauses are really not contentious. It is necessary in a Bill of this sort, if it be introduced at all, to retain a number of purely Ministerial clauses, which really cannot occupy the time or attention of people who are really desirous to deal with one of the most urgent Questions of the hour. The fifth day is devoted to clauses 34 to 39, and those are, I agree, important clauses. I do not deny it, but a day is given to them. Some hon. Members speak of a day as if it was nothing—six and a-half miserable hours. They are miserable hours to the Minister who is left in charge of the Bill, but a great deal can be done in six and a-half hours if Members would only believe how well we should get on, and how admirable their speeches would appear, if they were only simply and solely directed to the point at issue.

On the sixth day the provisions relate to the important subject of Congested Districts, and they are divided into two parts. Clauses 40 to 50 contain the provisions as to the reconstitution of the board, and here I must say that I wish hon. Members, before we settle down to this discussion, would read the Bill. How it is possible for the hon. Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Butcher) to make the statement he made about the reconstituted Congested Districts Board I am utterly as much at a loss to understand as I was to understand the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley) saying that under compulsory purchase the landlord was paid in depreciated stock. If he had only read the clause he would have seen that in all such cases the landlord must be paid in cash, and the money has to be lodged in the Bank of Ireland before the land can be taken. Therefore, if, before we start on this atrocious guillotine, the hon. Members would only read what is in the Bill we should progress better. I quite agree that the subject of the Congested Districts Board and the reconstitution of it is one which could occupy a Home Rule Parliamen many weeks, but in consequence of our congestion here we have not got at our disposal full and ample time to talk, re-talk, and talk again, and to make our criticisms searching, just often, sometimes the reverse, upon a proposal of this kind. You cannot do it, but having regard to the fact of the well-known position of the congested Districts Board, once hon. Members have really read the provisions of the Bill, though I do not say they will agree with it, they will find no difficulty in stating their opposition in regard to it in one miserable day.

As to compulsory purchase, there again it is said it will not be discussed at all. If it is not it will be the fault of hon. Gentlemen opposite, because they are determined that they will not discuss it, because they believe that they will have the advantage, which they believe to be great—it is not great in the country, though it may be great in another place—of saying that they have been prevented from talking about this subject, because they prefer to talk about something else. They will have two opportunities of discussing the principle of compulsion. I agree that in my opinion a question which will occupy much time—a question which may fitly occupy a considerable amount of time—is machinery for fixing the price and determining the court which is to say what a man is to get, for the peace of the country and the development of the principles of the Act of 1903. The machinery is of the utmost importance, and a whole day is given to clauses 58 to 60, which deal with it. The eighth day deals with the remaining portions of the Bill, and the schedules, one of which is an important one. In my view if the House sets itself down to do this work in a spirit of honesty, to discuss the main provisions of the Bill, there is time for them to do so. If, of course, they do not, if they prefer to discuss at great length comparatively minor points, the time I daresay w11 prove insufficient. I do not like the guillotine Resolutions. It affords me no pleasure to carry out a Bill under these conditions. I would much sooner have longer days and greater time between them in order to fit myself for the ample discussions we should then have, but in the present position of Parliamentary matters this is an ample Resolution, and it provides the House with the means if it chooses to avail itself of them for full discussion of the Bill.

The Chief Secretary for Ireland has been mainly concerned in conveying a lesson to the Opposition, namely, that a great deal can be done in a short period of Parliamentary time if speakers will confine themselves to the point at issue. I wish he had tried to convey that lesson to us by example as well as by precept, because the point made by my right hon. Friend was a simple point. It was enforced very clearly, and it was thoroughly well understood by some hon. Members sitting behind the Chief Secretary because they cheered the point. It was that those who either objected to parts of the Bill or were in doubt as to the meaning of parts of the Bill, and who wished in one case to have the opportunity of stating their objection, and in the other to have the opportunity of having their doubts resolved, should be the arbiters as to the amount of time which is allocated to this or that part of the Bill. His point was that closure by compartments is objectionable, but if you do it at any rate let those who are in Opposition or in doubt decide what parts of the Bill shall be discussed.

That has been repudiated by many speakers on your own side only this afternoon.

My right hon. Friend will correct me if I am not stating absolutely the point which he made. The reply of the right hon. Gentleman was first confined to the amount of time. He said it is not ample, but it is sufficient, and the rest of his speech consisted in telling the Opposition what were the parts of the Bill which they ought to discuss and what were the parts which they ought to be content to see passed into law without discussion. That is not addressing himself to the point at issue, and that point is a vital point if our deliberations are to fulfil the purpose for which deliberation exists, namely, where possible to get consent, and, where that is impossible, to get acquiescence. That is necessary for any Bill, but surely it is more necessary for a Bill affecting Ireland, and most necessary for a Bill affecting Irish land. I presume that the object of the Government in bringing forward this Resolution is that this Bill shall be passed into law. What will that avail unless the Bill carries with it some general measure of consent from Ireland? I am perfectly certain hon. Members below the Gangway who differ from some of my hon. Friends on some, though not on many, of the points of the Bill, would themselves desire that my hon. Friend should have the latitude which they always claim, to discuss those parts of the Bill in which they are deeply interested, for if those parts of the Bill are not discussed you may pass the Bill into law, but it will not he binding upon Ireland. It will not be an amending Act passed by the general consent of all parties in Ireland. I think it will be very easy to show that that which affects the Irish Members also affects English Members. The right hon. Gentleman, in defending the allocation of time which he thought appropriate, said, "Why we have got three days for Finance, and that ought to satisfy English Members." But, unless this Bill is freely discussed in the House, English Members interested in finance will not discover that the financial measure of the Bill will depend on clauses which may be huddled away in batches of 20. They will think that they are discussing finance, and the Chief Secretary has told them that they will have an opportunity of discussing finance, but the whole amount of the loan for which we may ultimately have to make ourselves responsible depends on the clauses. Clause 17, for example, is tucked away in a batch of 20, and that is illusory. The right hon. Gentleman, in his speech, said: "You have referred to the Land Act of 1903. You have pointed out that that took a greater number of days than we have allowed," and on this point of finance the Chief Secretary said, "There were discussions beforehand in Ireland as to what affected Ireland, but there were no preliminary discussions as to what affected England, namely, the amount of the guarantee for which we made ourselves responsible." Quite true, but if English Members had demurred to that obligation they had an opportunity of allocating as much time as they pleased to the discussion of the measure. The fact that such a Bill was going to be introduced was debated on the Address. After the First Reading the time was allocated, and the Minister who was responsible for that measure insisted on the importance of the financial substructure of it. It was open to any English Member or band of English Members to get up and say: "This Bill affects British finance, and we mean to discuss as much as we please the finance provisions." They could have done that, but they did not do it, and only 24 voted against the Second Reading. They had the opportunity for discussion. The right hon. Gentleman misses the point. He says, "Address yourselves to the point." The point is that we should have opportunity for discussion, and that we should decide what use we will make of that opportunity, and it is not for Ministers to tell us what use we are to make of it. English Members under this allocation, although given three days, may conceive that they are in a position to discuss the finance of the Bill, but they are not. If you take the rest of the allocation of the time, it seems to me—I have no doubt it was by inadvertence, but it almost suggests design—that those parts of the Bill which have the greatest effect on finance, and which are most nearly concerned to the points of difference existing between the Irish Members sitting for different parts of Ireland, have been put into compartments in which the greatest number of clauses are included. There are three days given to so-called finance, but that is a pure waste of time unless there is some agreement on the subsequent clauses. Clause 17 is one of a batch of 20 clauses touching a question which was raised when the Bill was brought in last autumn, namely, Are you altering the whole character of the Act of 1903 by proposing to take land, if need be compulsorily, not to sell it to anyone suffering under dual ownership, not to sell it to any tenant or to anyone that was a tenant of Irish land, but to some new man? Now that is a big question.

I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. Clause 17 is in a batch of 17 clauses. That is a vital point. It is a point about which great difference of opinion and great doubt exists. When the matter was last discussed I did my best, according to my poor ability, to get the Government to take notice of that point. All they did was to put up the Attorney-General for Ireland to say that they did not mean what the Bill said, that these would be purely exceptional cases, and that it would be quite wrong to suppose that they were bringing forward the policy which hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, to do them credit, seem to believe they are bringing forward. There is a great doubt. We ought to remove, if we can, points of dispute. We certainly ought to remove points of doubt. I can reinforce that again by turning to the next large batch which my right hon. Friend alluded to, which embraces the whole of the Congested Districts Board. You are really scheduling eight counties and some electoral divisions, to treat those counties as a distinct part of Ireland, and apply to them legislation which is perfectly abnormal. Those are two great changes in the Act of 1903 which account for the great increase of the Estimates which the right hon. Gentleman has made of the burden that will be cast possibly on the Imperial taxpayer. Those two great fundamental changes are selected by him to be put into the great mass of clauses to which only one day is to be given. Surely it is not necessary for me to go into the merits; surely I have done enough in showing that the allocation of time which finds favour with the right hon. Gentleman is not the allocation of time which finds favour with hon. Members from Ireland, who know what they are talking about, or which would find favour with English Members if they understood the consequence of these vital changes which are locked away from sight and from discussion. This Bill if it becomes law will not be a law of peace unless it is based upon some measure of consent, or at least of acquiescence. There cannot be consent to propositions which have never been stated. Propositions in dispute and doubt cannot be settled unless the Government abandon this tyrannical device to preclude the House of Commons from amending the Act of 1903 and from throwing back the conditions of land tenure in Ireland into that deplorable state from which they were rescued, at any rate for a time.

The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland finds fault with us on this side of the House for making what he describes as second reading speeches. I beg to point out that his own speech partook more of the nature of a second reading speech than did the speech of any Member who preceded him. He alluded to our description of compulsion, with great politeness, as rubbish, and he described this Bill as supplementing, implementing, and complementing the Bill of 1903. With regard to that last description of his Bill, and also the description which the Prime Minister gave of it in his opening speech, I would beg to ask the Prime Minister if he has read the Bill, because I cannot conceive how anybody who has read the Bill looks upon it as anything else but a Bill specifically designed for the purpose of destroying the Act of 1903. The Act of 1903, as hon. Members who have studied the Irish land question will remember, was based chiefly on one thing—that was the British Exchequer supplying as a bonus so much money as would be sufficient to bridge over the difference between what the landlord could afford to accept for his land in Ireland and what the tenant could afford to give. One of the first things which this Bill which we are discussing to-night does is practically to sweep away the provisions of the Act of 1903 with regard to that bonus. I cannot say, therefore, how the Prime Minister can describe it as supplementing the Act of 1903. In the second place, this Bill practically—I do not say altogether—removes the zones, which are also a most vital part of the Act of 1903. In the very first lines of the Bill a blow is struck at the financial provisions of the Act of 1903, and the Chief Secretary has told us to-night that although we have been given three days to discuss those provisions, there is not the slightest hope of the financial portion of the Bill being altered from what it now is.

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Treasury had done all it would do.

I withdraw that observation. I at any rate understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that it was of no use to appeal to the Treasury for better terms. If better terms were offered to us in the early clauses of the Bill that would put a different complexion, of course, on the whole Bill. But at all events, as the Bill stands at the moment, the financial provisions of the Act of 1903 have been so seriously altered that no landlord, or agent, or tenant in Ireland who is a free agent, and of course a great many tenants are not free agents at the present time—can afford to accept the terms offered by the Chief Secretary in this Bill. Then, as to the question of compulsion, the Bill differs absolutely from the Act of 1903.

The hon. Member must confine himself to the subject of the Debate, and not discuss the Bill.

I will endeavour to confine myself directly to the Resolution. I was trying to point out the magnitude of the questions which have to be discussed, and the important points on which this Bill differs from the Act of 1903, and the consequent inadequacy of the attempt which is offered by the Government for the discussion of these points. The discussion of the question of compulsion is sandwiched in amongst other important matters, and I think one day is given for them. A question of such magnitude as whether or not compulsion should be applied practically to the whole of the land of Ireland—when the voluntary system set up by the Act of 1903 has worked so satisfactorily, and has been stopped only by temporary want of money—is only to have portion of a day, and in fact it is put in such a position that we will not be able to touch it at all. This is treating the House of Commons as a whole, especially those Members of it who are, perhaps, more interested in the measure than any other Members, with a very great want of respect.

To my mind the most outrageous proposal of the time schedule is that dealing with congestion. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) informed us in his speech, and the Chief Secretary also informed us, that this Bill ought to be a non-contentious one. I entirely agree that it ought to have been non-contentious, if the Bill had only been to do what the people of Ireland have been for the last two years demanding, namely, to amend the Act of 1903 in regard to finance, so as to enable the provisions of that Act to be carried out. But instead of seeking to amend the Act of 1903 they have tacked on all these extraneous matters, one of them this question of congestion. We are asked to discuss the whole of that vast question in the course of one day, and that day probably a Friday, when there are five hours for discussion. I say that that is a great want of courtesy and want of respect to the House of Commons, and that it is an insult to the Opposition to expect it to deal with that huge subject in the course of a few hours. I need not enlarge on the absurdities of the proposals, and I would only ask the Chief Secretary or Prime Minister to reconsider the point whereby we are expected to vote on batches of clauses at the same time. That is a most unfair proposal. So far as I am concerned, and so far as most of my Friends from the North of Ireland are concerned, there is only one provision in the whole of this Bill that we can cordially give our assent to, and that is the provision, of course, by which the local authorities are relieved of the liability for the amount of the loss on flotation of stock. Out of a Bill of 70 clauses, which have been described as non-contentious, that is the only provision to which I can give unstinted praise. For a Bill with hundreds of points to which we are bitterly opposed the Chief Secretary offers a beggarly, miserable eight days for discussing questions of such tremendous importance. That is showing a want of respect, and, moreover, is an insult to the House.

There are two points on the general aspect of this Resolution to which the attention of the House might really be directed. I somewhat admired the spectacle, which is, I think, a somewhat novel spectacle, of the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) standing up and posing, of all things, as a champion of the closure. While the points to which I refer arose on the earlier Resolution, they arise in a more aggravated form on the Resolution dealing with this particular Bill. The first is that portion of the Resolution which empowers the Chairman to put various batches of clauses together at one single time unless the Government give notice of Amendments. I hope the Prime Minister and hon. Gentlemen opposite will remember that in the days to come—it may not be in this Parliament, but possibly in the succeeding Parliament—that procedure may be used as a very valuable precedent.

Now I come to the second point. The Resolution contains the following words:—"On an allotted day no dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor Motion to recommit the Bill, nor Motion that the Chairman do leave the Chair, nor Motion for Adjournment under Standing Order 10, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be received unless moved by the Government." Speaking as a humble back bench Member, I say it is a very grave step for this House to alienate from itself for a period of 16 days the power to move the adjournment on an urgent matter of definite public importance. No one can say that in this Parliament that power has been abused. Such Motions have been few and far between this year. Last year I think there was one from the Opposition. The year before there was one from the Irish benches and one from the Labour party; I cannot remember any from the Opposition. But the power exists, and its importance is that it is the only remaining sanction which gives the private Member any control over the executive action of the Government. The first time the question of curtailing this privilege in a guillotine Motion arose was in connection with the Scottish Land Bill, when the champion of private Members was none other than the present Under-Secretary for the Colonies, who, in an excellent speech, said that:—

I have already given my general views with regard to this method of guillotine, and I rise again simply because the Chief Secretary, no doubt unintentionally, gave an entirely wrong impression on a matter of fact by an interruption in the course of the speech of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Wyndham). My right hon. Friend pointed out that there was no question which more concerned the British taxpayer, which more affected the credit of this country, or which more deserved the careful consideration of this House than the extension by this Bill of the credit of the State to aid not merely the class who occupy land, but a class who do not. The Act of 1903 was confined, broadly speaking, to turning tenants into owners. This Bill makes a great extension of that principle, and by so doing throws an enormous additional strain on the credit of the country. My right hon. Friend pointed out that so novel a principle ought to be brought forward at a time when there was a good opportunity, as well as ample time, for discussion. He said that instead of carrying out that policy the Government had deliberately tucked away clause 17 in a batch of clauses from 13 to 33. He was then interrupted by the Chief Secretary, who said "at the beginning of the day." I turn my attention to the Schedule, and I find that it is not at the beginning—

At the period that everybody knows is the least convenient in this House for the discussion of a novel proposal. I would not have intervened but for the unintentional and very important misstatement for which the Chief Secretary made himself responsible. Having made that necessary correction, I do not propose to intervene further between the House and the Division.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'Eight' ('Eight allotted days'), stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 288; Noes, 86.

Division No. 166.]

AYES.

[10.55 p.m.

Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight

Acland, Francis Dyke

Berridge, T. H. D.

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Agnew, George William

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Cheetham, John Frederick

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Boland, John

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Alden, Percy

Bowerman, C. W.

Clancy, John Joseph

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Brace, William

Clough, William

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Branch, James

Ambrose, Robert

Bright, J. A.

Clynes, J. R.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Brecklehurst, W. B.

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Brodie, H. C.

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Astbury, John Meir

Brooke, Stopford

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Bryce, J. Annan

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Cooper, G. J.

Barnard, E. B.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

Barnes, G. N.

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Barran, Sir John Nicholson

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Byles, William Pollard

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Beale, W. P.

Cameron, Robert

Crean, Eugene

Beauchamp, E.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Crosfield, A. H.

Crossley, William J.

Joyce, Michael

Power, Patrick Joseph

Cullinan, J.

Kavanagh, Walter M.

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Curran, Peter Francis

Kekewich, Sir George

Priestley, W. E. B.(Bradford, E.)

Delany, William

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Radford, G. H.

Devlin, Joseph

Kettle, Thomas Michael

Reddy, M.

Dewar, Arthur, (Edinburgh, S.)

Kilbride, Denis

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Dewar, Sir J.A.(Inverness-sh.)

King, Allred John (Knutsford)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Dillon, John

Lambert, George

Rendall, Atheistan

Donelan, Captain A.

Lamont, Norman

Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks., Otley)

Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Lehmann, R. C.

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Robertson, J.M. (Tyneside)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Levy, Sir Maurice

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Lewis, John Herbert

Roche, Augustine (Cork)

Erskine, David C.

London, T.

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Lupton, Arnold

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Esslemont, George Birnie

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Rose, Charles Day

Evans, Sir S. T.

Lynch, H. B.

Rowlands, J.

Everett, R. Lacey

Macdonald, J.R. (Leicester)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Fenwick, Charles

Macdonald, J.M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Ferens, T.R.

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Rutherford, V.H (Brentford)

Ffrench, Peter

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Flynn, James Christopher

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

Fuller, John Michael F.

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

Seaverns, J H.

Fullerton, Hugh

M'Callum, John M.

Seely, Colonel

Gibb, James (Harrow)

M'Kean, John

Shackleton, David James

Gill, A. H.

M'Kenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Sheehy, David

Ginnell, L.

M'Micking, Major G.

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

Mallet, Charles E.

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Glendinning, R G.

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Simon, John Allsebrook

Glover, Thomas

Markham, Arthur Basil

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Snowden, P.

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Marnham, F. J.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Gulland, John W.

Massie, J.

Soares, Ernest J.

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

Masterman, C. F. G.

Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.)

Hall, Frederick

Meagher, Michael

Steadman, W. C.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Harcourt, Robert V.(Montrose)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Middlebrook, William

Strachey, Sir Edward

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Mond, A.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.)

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)

Harrington, Timothy

Mooney, J. J.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Thomasson, Franklin

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Morrell, Philip

Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.)

Harwood, George

Morse, L. L.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Tomkinson, James

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Murnaghan, George

Toulmin, George

Haworth, Arthur A.

Murphy, John(Kerry, East)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Hayden, John Patrick

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Hazel, Dr. A. E. W.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Verney, F. W.

Hazleton, Richard

Napier, T. B.

Walters, John Tudor

Hedges, A. Paget

Nicholls, George

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Helme, Norval Watson

Nolan, Joseph

Wardle, George J.

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Norman, Sir Henry

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Henry, Charles S.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Higham, John Sharp

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Hobart, Sir Robert

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Waterlow, D. S

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

O'Brien, K.(Tipperary, Mid)

Watt, Henry A.

Hodge, John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Hogan, Michael

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Holland, Sir William Henry

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Whitehead, Rowland

Hooper, A. G.

O'Grady, J.

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Wiles, Thomas

Horniman, Errslie John

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Wilkie, Alexander

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

O'Malley, William

Williamson, A

Hudson, Walter

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Parker, James (Halifax)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

Hyde, Clarendon G.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Illingworth, Percy H.

Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

Winfrey, R.

Jackson, R. S.

Philips, John (Longford, S.)

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Jenkins, J.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Pirie, Duncan V.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Pointer, J.

Joseph Pease and Mr. Herbert

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Pollard, Dr. G. H.

Lewis.

Jordan, Jeremiah

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

NOES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Balcarres, Lord

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.)

Bowles, G. Stewart

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Banbury Sir Frederick George

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Ashley, W. W.

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Bull, Sir William James

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Grayson, Albert Victor

Peel, Hon. W. Robert Wellesley

Carlile, E. Hildred

Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)

Percy, Earl

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hamilton, Marquess of

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Cave, George

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

Pretyman, E. G.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Renwick, George

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Harrison, Broadley, H. B.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Channing, Sir Francis Allston

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Clark, George Smith

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert

Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

Clive, Percy Archer

Hills, J. W.

Sandys, Col. Thos. Myles

Clyde, J Avon

Holt, Richard Durning

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham)

Joynson-Hicks, William

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

Cochrane, Hon Thomas H. A. E.

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Stanier, Beville

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich)

Starkey, John R.

Craik, Sir Henry

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire)

Dalrymple, Viscount

Lockwood, Fit. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.)

Thornton, Percy M.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Du Cros, Arthur

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh)

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Younger, George

Fell, Arthur

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Fletcher, J. S.

Morpeth, Viscount

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir

Forster, Henry William

Newdegate, F. A.

A. Acland-Hood and Viscount

Gardner, Ernest

Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)

Valentia.

moved to leave out the words:—

"And on the Committee stage of the Bill the Chairman, in the case of a series of clauses to which no notice of Amendment has been given by the Government, shall put the Question that those Clauses stand part of the Bill without putting the Question separately as respects each Clause."

I raised this Question upon the last Resolution, and I asked the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Resolution (Mr. Burns) if he could give me any reason why these words were necessary. I pointed out that if six clauses were taken en bloc, and my hon. Friends disapproved of one of them and approved of five, they would either have to vote against the five or in favour of the one of which they disapproved. If they adopted the course of not voting at all, they would lay themselves open to the taunt that they had not the courage of their opinions. I asked the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Burns) earlier in the Debate to give me an explanation of this clause, but he did not rise. I afterwards had the privilege of meeting him in the Lobby, and he told me that the words were taken from the guillotine Resolution of 1902. The right hon. Gentleman is in error. I have also verified the Resolution of 1904 and the Resolution on the Licensing Bill, and in these Resolutions there is nothing similar to this Resolution. The precedent which has been set is a bad precedent. If the old constitutional right of the House of Commons to divide on every clause prevailed there might be 75 divisions, and therefore in the two days only two hours would be left for discussion. That is the fault of the Government, who choose to give us inadequate time for the consideration of the Bill. I do not want to make a lengthy speech at this hour of the evening, but the matter is a vital one, and affects every single Member of this House. If an hon. Member is not to have the right to discuss a clause he ought, at all events, to have the right to vote against it. I regard the proposal of the Government as a breach of the privileges of the House.

Question proposed: "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

It is quite true, as the hon. Baronet said in moving this Amendment, that this particular provision has not formed part of earlier guillotine Resolutions, but it has sanction to this extent at present—that it formed part of the Resolutions with regard to the Scottish Land Bill and the Old Age Pensions Bill, and this afternoon it was assented to as part of the Resolution in respect of the Housing Bill. It is not a provision of which the Government are enamoured. I think it is most objectionable to put clauses in batches instead of giving the House an opportunity of passing judgment on them seriatim. It was fairly well justified in a case where the absurd position might arise of having 30 or 40 divisions, but here, where we are allowing eight days in Committee, we feel it would result in very little inconvenience to the House to allow the right to call a Division—even frivolously—to be exercised, and I propose therefore to omit this clause.

Question, "That these words stand part of the Resolution," put and agreed to.

Motion made and Question put: "That this Resolution, as amended, be the Resolution of the House."

The House divided: Ayes, 284; Noes, 80.

Division No. 167.]

AYES.

[11.13 p.m.

Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Lupton, Arnold

Acland, Francis Dyke

Evans. Sir S. T.

Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

Agnew, George William

Everett, R. Lacey

Lynch, H. B.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Fenwick, Charles

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch)

Ferens, T. R.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)

Ffrench, Peter

Mackarness, Frederic C.

Ambrose, Robert

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Flynn, James Christopher

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Fuller, John Michael F.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)

Astbury, John Meir

Fullerton, Hugh

MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)

Balfour, Robert (Lanark)

Gibb, James (Harrow)

M'Callum, John M.

Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)

Gill, A. H.

M'Kean, John

Barlow, Percy (Bedford)

Ginnell, L.

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Barnard, E. B.

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John

M'Micking, Major G.

Barnes, G. N.

Glendinning, R. G.

Mallet, Charles E.

Barran, Rowland Hirst

Glover, Thomas

Manfield, Harry (Northants)

Barran, Sir John Nicholson

Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford

Markham, Arthur Basil

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Gooch, George Peabody (Bath)

Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston)

Beale, W. P.

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward

Marnham, F. J.

Beauchamp, E.

Gulland, John W.

Massie, J.

Bonn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius

Masterman, C. F. G.

Berridge, T. H. D.

Hall, Frederick

Meagher, Michael

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Boland, John

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Micklem, Nathaniel

Bowerman, C. W.

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Middlebrook, William

Brace, William

Hardy, George A. (Suffolk)

Mond, A.

Branch, James

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.)

Montagu, Hon E. S.

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Harrington, Timothy

Mooney, J. J.

Brodie, H. C.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall)

Brooke, Stopford

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Morrell, Philip

Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh)

Harwood, George

Morse, L. L.

Bryce, J. Annan

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Burke, E. Haviland-

Haslem, Lewis (Monmouth)

Murnaghan, George

Burrs, Rt. Hon. John

Haworth, Arthur A.

Murphy, John (Kerry, East)

Burnyeat, W. J. D.

Hayden, John Patrick

Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Hazel, Dr. A. E. W.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles

Hazleton, Richard

Napier, T. B.

Byles, William Pollard

Hedges, A. Paget

Nicholls, George

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Helms, Norval Watson

Nolan, Joseph

Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Norman, Sir Henry

Cawley, Sir Frederick

Henry, Charles S.

Norton, Captain Cecil William

Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.

Higham, John Sharp

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Clancy, John Joseph

Hobart, Sir Robert

Hussey, Thomas Willans

Clough, William

Hobhouse, Charles E. H.

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

Clynes, J. R.

Hodge, John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Cobbold, Felix Thornley

Hogan, Michael

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Holland, Sir William Henry

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool

Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)

Hooper, A. G.

O'Grady, J.

Compton-Rickett, Sir J.

Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Horniman, Emslie John

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Cooper, G. J.

Horridge, Thomas Gardner

O'Malley William

Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)

Hudson, Walter

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Hutton, Alfred Eddison

Parker, James (Halifax)

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Hyde, Clarendon G.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Cotton, Sir H. J. S.

Illingworth, Percy H.

Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Jackson, R. S.

Philips, John (Longford, S.)

Crean, Eugene

Jenkins, J.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Crosfield, A. H.

Johnson, John (Gateshead)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Crossley, William J.

Johnson, W. (Nuneaton)

Pointer, J.

Cullinan, J.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Pollard, Dr. G. H.

Curran, Peter Francis

Jordan, Jeremiah

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Davies, Timothy (Fulham)

Joyce, Michael

Power, Patrick Joseph

Delany, William

Kavanagh, Walter M.

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Devlin, Joseph

Kekewich, Sir George

Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.)

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Radford, G. H.

Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-shire)

Kettle, Thomas Michael

Reddy, M.

Dillon, John

Kilbride, Denis

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Donelan, Captain A.

King, Alfred John (Knutsford)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lambert, George

Rendall, Athelstan

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Lamont, Norman

Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, w.)

Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall)

Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)

Lehmann, R. C.

Robertson, J. M (Tyneside)

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)

Robson, Sir William Snowdon

Elibank, Master of

Levy, Sir Maurice

Roche, Augustine (Cork)

Erskine, David C.

Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David

Roche, John (Galway, East)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Lyndon, T.

Rogers, F. E. Newman

Rose, Charles Day

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Rowlands, J.

Stewart, Halley (Greenock)

Waterlow, B. S.

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Strachey, Sir Edward

Watt, Henry A

Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W.

Straus, B. S. (Mile End)

White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)

Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Tennant, Sir Edward (Salsibury)

Whitehead, Rowland

Scarisbrick, T. T. L.

Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)

Whitley, John Henry (Halifax)

Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)

Thomasson, Franklin

Wiles, Thomas

Seaverns, J. H.

Thompson, J. W H. (Somerset, E.)

Wilkie, Alexander

Seely, Colonel

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Williamson, A.

Shackleton, David James

Tomkinson, James

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

Sheehy, David

Toulmin, George

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Silcock, Thomas Ball

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Winfrey, R.

Simon, John Allsebrook

Verney, F. W.

Wood, T. M'Kinnon

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Walters, John Tudor

Snowden, P.

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr.

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Joseph Pease and Mr. Herbert Lewis.

Soares, Ernest J.

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

NOES.

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Anstruther-Gray, Major

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-

Morpeth, Viscount

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Newdegate, F. A.

Ashley, W. W.

Du Cros, Arthur

Nicholson, Wm G. (Petersfield)

Balcarres, Lord

Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh)

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.1. (City, Lend.)

Fell, Arthur

Peel, Hon. W. R W.

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Fletcher, J. S.

Percy, Earl

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Forster, Henry William

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bignold, Sir Arthur

Gardner, Ernest

Pretyman, E. G.

Bowles, G. Stewart

Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)

Renwick, George

Bridgeman, W. Clive

Guinness, Hon R. (Haggerston)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hamilton, Marquess of

Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert

Bull, Sir William James

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford)

Sandys, Col. Thos. Myles

Butcher, Samuel Henry

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Carlile, E. Hildred

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D.

Castlereagh, Viscount

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Stanier, Beville

Cave, George

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert

Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Holt, Richard Durning

Starkey, John R.

Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)

Joynson-Hicks, William

Staveley-H ill, Henry (Staffordshire)

Clark, George Smith

King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Clive, Percy Archer

Lambton, Hon. Frederick William

Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark)

Clyde, J. Avon

Law, Andrew Boner (Dulwich)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham)

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Younger, George

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir

Craik, Sir Henry

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

A. Acland-Hood and Viscount

Dalrymple, Viscount

M'Calmont, Col. James

Valentia.

Trawling in Prohibited Areas (Prevention) Bill

I beg to move that the House do now adjourn. I desire to intimate that it is proposed to suspend the 11 o'clock rule to-morrow for the purpose of securing the third reading of the Trawling in Prohibited Areas (Prevention) Bill.

There was certainly an agreement come to last week that a short time—half-an-hour or an hour—should be given to the third reading of this Bill to-day. I was fully under the impression that the third reading of the Bill would be taken before 11 o'clock tonight. I did not know that the guillotine Resolution would be so protracted, but that was not the fault of this side. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will allow that a great part of the Debate was carried on by hon. Members on the other side of the House, and, therefore, I am in no way responsible for not carrying out the arrangement which was made. I think it is important that when arrangements are made they should be carried out.

Perhaps I may be allowed to say that I objected to the Bill being taken to-night, because the guillotine Resolution—

And, it being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, in pursuance of the Standing Order.

Adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock.