House of Commons
Tuesday, June 22, 1909
Private Business
Edgware and Hampstead Railway Bill,
Watford and Edgware Railway Bill,
Read the third time, and passed.
Great North of Scotland Railway Order Confirmation,—Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under The Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Great North of Scotland Railway (to be proceeded with under Section 7 of the Act)—[ The Lord Advocate ]—presented, and read the first time.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors (Sunday) Bill
I beg to present a Petition from St. Albans against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors (Sunday) Bill on general grounds. The Petition is signed by magistrates and other inhabitants of the city; and also a Petition from the inhabitants of Hertfordshire generally to the same purport against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors (Sunday) Bill also.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Newspapers in Egypt
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether, by the Press Law of 1881, newspapers can be suspended or suppressed in Egypt, by order of the Minister of the Interior, after two warnings; whether any action has been taken recently under this law; and whether he will ask the Government of Egypt to rely upon the courts of law until this House has had an opportunity of expressing its opinion on the subject?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative, and that to the second in the negative. As regards the last point, I see no ground for interference with the discretion of the Egyptian Government in the matter.
Island of Crete (Withdrawal of Troops)
asked the Secretary of State whether any request has been received by His Majesty's Government from that of Turkey for the postponement of the withdrawal of His Majesty's troops from the island of Crete; and, in view of the complications which may ensue if the troops be withdrawn, will he reconsider the decision which was arrived at in circumstances which have been greatly modified since it was taken?
asked whether, in view of the unsettled state of affairs in Turkey, he will use his influence to delay the evacuation of Crete by the troops of the protecting Powers?
asked whether, in order to the safeguarding, as far as may be, the sovereign rights of Turkey in Crete, His Majesty's Government will give a favourable hearing to any request the Porte may make as regards the withdrawal of His Majesty's troops or the postponement of such withdrawal?
I would beg to reply to this question and to the questions of the hon. Members for St. Andrew's Burghs and Montgomery Boroughs at the same time, as all three questions refer to the same subject. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, His Majesty's Government do not consider that they would be justified in departing from the pledge given to the Cretan people more than a year ago, and see no reason to reconsider the decision then arrived at, as the conditions as to tranquillity have been maintained. I may add that it is proposed that "stationnaires" shall be retained in Cretan waters in order to protect the Turkish flag, and to ensure the maintenance of tranquillity and the protection of Mussulmans in the island.
Are we to understand from the reply that the troops are to be withdrawn next month and the Cretans left to themselves?
I have nothing to add to the reply.
As I do not understand the reply I will put a question down for Thursday.
Russian Troops at Tabriz
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he is now in a position to state when the Russian troops are to evacuate Tabriz and the adjacent districts?
I have been officially informed by the Russian Government that they are about to proceed with a gradual reduction of the Russian troops at Tabriz, withdrawing the whole on the arrival of the newly-appointed Governor, who is shortly expected.
Deportees in India
asked the Under-Secretary for India whether any of the nine political deportees in India have made application to have members of their families sent to bear them company during their exile; and whether, as the object of the deportation is preventive rather than punitive, arrangements will be made whereby these nine gentlemen may live en famille on parole, and not be kept confined as prisoners during the remainder of their undefined period of exile?
The answer to the first question, according to the information so far received by the Secretary of State, is in the negative; and the Secretary of State sees no sufficient reason for making any change of the kind suggested in the latter part of the question.
May I ask whether the Government of India have been consulted as to the wisdom of the point I raised in the last part of the question—namely, whether it is intended to treat these men as ordinary criminals?
In a subsequent answer which I propose to give to my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham some details of the detention are stated. In reply to the supplementary question, the Government of India are in accord with the Secretary of State for India on the subject.
Midnapur Conspiracy and Barrah Dacoity Cases
asked the Under-Secretary for India whether he can now state the constitution of the Commissions which have been appointed to inquire into the conduct of the police in the Midnapur conspiracy and Barrah dacoity cases?
The inquiry into the conduct of the police in the Midnapur case has been entrusted to the Commissioner of the Burdwan Division. The Secretary of State has not heard who is to inquire into the questions arising out of the Barrah case.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Commissioner of the district is Commissioner of Police, and therefore that it is purely a Departmental inquiry?
No, Sir. It is true that the Commissioner of the district is technically the head of the police, but he is only technically so. In regard to the actual administrative duties of the police there is little or no ground for the suggestion.
Can he say if this Government is in a position after their conduct on the Congo—
Order! Order!
By whom was the Commissioner appointed? He is a policeman inquiring into the charges against the police.
No, Sir. I expressly pointed out he is not a policeman.
Is he not the head of the police?
No, Sir. I said he was not.
Detention of Babu Krishna Kumar Mitra (Agra)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India, whether he is now in a position to state whether Babu Krishna Kumar Mitra, who has been deported without charge or trial, is confined in the Agra gaol in an ill-lighted and ill-ventilated cell; whether he is kept under lock and key except for half an hour in the morning and evening for exercise; whether his meals are cooked for him by an upcountry convict; and whether he has no access to literature other than a Bible and a History of the Punjab, or to writing materials; and, if not, whether he will immediately ascertain the facts by inquiry from the Government of India?
The facts as reported by the Government of India are as follows: Mr. Mitra lives in a large, airy and well-lighted and ventilated barrack, with a large central corridor in which he sleeps, being provided at night with a fan and mosquito net; he is allowed two hours' exercise outside his quarters every morning and one hour every evening; his health has in no way deteriorated; it has not been possible to provide a Bengali cook, but he is provided with wholesome diet, and is not confined to prison fare; he is allowed books freely and writing-materials whenever he requires them.
Is he allowed Mr. John Morley's "Life of Edmund Burke"?
Prosecutions and Trials in India
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the case of one Hriday Nath Bose, who lately died in the Medical College Hospital, Calcutta, and made a dying declaration before a magistrate that his ribs had been fractured by a bamboo which had been rolled on his chest till he became unconscious, and to the post mortem report of Colonel Jordan, I.M.S., that seven ribs were fractured, and that death was directly due to pus in the cavity of the right lung; and whether any inquiry has been ordered into the conduct of the police officers concerned?
further asked the Under-Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to a recent case from Sylhet in which one Bho ka Chowdhry and others were charged with murder and were eventually acquitted by the sessions judge, who found that the police investigation was full of irregularities and that the prosecution witnesses were under improper police influence; and whether any inquiry has been ordered into the conduct of the police officers concerned?
Perhaps the hon. Member will permit me to answer this question and the question immediately following it together. The Secretary of State has no information as to either case beyond what has appeared in the newspapers, but he will inquire. He has no doubt that the local governments concerned will do what is necessary in regard to the investigation of charges made against the police.
Malaria in Bombay (Position of Captain McKendrick)
asked the Under-Secretary for India whether Captain McKendrick, who has been the expert adviser to a committee inquiring into malaria in Bombay, has been withdrawn and sent back to Coonoor; whether he will state why this has been done; whether anyone has been appointed to carry on Captain McKendrick's work in Bombay, and, if so, what are the special qualifications of the new officer; and what is his knowledge of Bombay itself?
The Secretary of State understands that Captain McKendrick has been recalled to Coonoor in order to take charge of the Pasteur Institute there, of which he is assistant-director. The director has been obliged to take: leave. It is not known who has been appointed by the Bombay Government to continue the inquiry on which Captain McKendrick was engaged.
Is the Government taking any steps to find out?
I do not think there is any reason why they should.
Midnapur Conspiracy Case (Inquiry)
asked whether the official instructions to the Commissioners of Burdwan regarding the Midnapur conspiracy case directed not only a full investigation into the conduct of all concerned in the prosecution but also enjoined an inquiry into everything likely to throw light on the existence of a conspiracy against the Government and on the persons involved, whether recently tried or not; and whether the Government accepted the judgment of the Chief Justice, as showing that no conspiracy existed?
The instructions issued by the Lieutenant-Governor include a clause in the sense stated. When the hon. Member put his question on the Paper he could not. I believe, have seen the judgment of the High Court. Now that he has seen it, he is aware that the question which it decided was not whether a conspiracy existed, but whether certain appellants, were or were not proved to be guilty of conspiracy. The Government of India, of, course, are bound to accept the finding of the court as final and conclusive in respect of those appellants.
Am I to understand, then, that a principal object of the inquiry is to ascertain whether a conspiracy existed?
Yes, that is so—amongst other objects.
Lahore Police Inquiry,
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State had had his attention called to the facts of a case heard on appeal in February last, by the Chief Court at Lahore, in which the conviction of a woman for the alleged murder of her husband was set aside on the grounds that important evidence for the defence had been withheld by the police, and that a confession of guilt had been extorted from this woman by acute torture after outrage by the police; whether he was aware that the court, consisting of Justices Robertson and Rattigan, asked for a searching inquiry into the conduct of the police; and whether such an inquiry had been held, and with what result?
The Secretary of State has as yet no detailed information, but the Government of India telegraph that the inquiry referred to has been held, and that the resulting Report is under the consideration of the Government of the Punjab.
Are we to assume that the inquiry was by the police?
I do not think we must assume that.
Have the incriminated police been discharged, or are they still in office?
The matter is still under consideration by the Government of the Punjab.
Barotse land Police (Colonel Colin Harding)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention had been called to the fact that Colonel Colin Harding, C.M.G., late Commandant of the Barotse Land Police, sent in his resignation of that office upon being informed that reductions of the police force necessitating his retirement were about to be made, and were approved by Lord Selborne; whether, as a fact, the Colonial Office declined to approve of such reduction, and Colonel Harding's post was accordingly filled by another without an opportunity being afforded to him to withdraw his resignation; and whether, under the circumstances of his resignation being caused by a misunderstanding between Colonel Harding, Lord Selborne, and the Colonial Office, he could now state when he would be in a position to offer Colonel Harding another appointment?
The Administration of the British South Africa Company, partly for reasons of economy and partly for other reasons which were clearly indicated to Colonel Harding, were anxious to secure the retirement of Colonel Harding, and pressed it upon the High Commissioner, who ultimately acquiesced in the action of the company after obtaining decidedly better terms of retirement for Colonel Harding. In these circumstances, although the Secretary of State would be glad if it were possible to offer Colonel Harding another appointment, he has always maintained the view that no direct liability rests upon the Colonial Office in this matter. Colonel Harding is aware that his name has recently been carefully considered, but that the opportunities of employing a man of his age and particular qualifications do not often occur.
Is not my hon. Friend aware that the Chartered Company were displeased by Colonel Harding's action in carrying out the instructions of the Colonial Office to deal leniently with the natives in regard to the collection of their hut tax; and does he not think that the Colonial Office is under special obligation to Colonel Harding for his loyalty; and will my hon. Friend not see that he does not longer suffer injury for his loyalty?
I cannot accept without reservation the account of the matter given by my hon. Friend. We are anxious to find employment for Colonel Harding, but it is exceedingly difficult to do so owing to his age and previous experience.
Might not the experience of Colonel Harding be of advantage to the Colonial Office in many parts of the world?
The appointments which we have in the Colonial Office are appointments for very junior officers, and to appoint a person of some 50 years of age, of great experience and administrative ability, would obviously be impossible. We are anxious to do what we can for Colonel Harding, but the very fact of his great experience and high qualifications renders it impossible for us to give him one of these junior appointments.
Is it not the fact that Colonel Harding incurred the displeasure of the Chartered Company by his refusal to carry out an order to collect an increased hut tax at the cost of burning a settlement of the natives; if so, has he not a special claim on the Colonial Office?
That is similar, to a question already put.
Is there not room for a man whose experience the Colonial Office recognises; and is my hon. Friend not aware that Colonel Harding is not 50, but only 45, and that he has offered to accept any junior post which he may be offered?
He is approaching 50 years of age, and it is impossible to appoint an officer of his capacity to a junior post, but we will try to find him suitable employment.
Could not this gentleman be appointed to the Irish Office, where men of experience are wanted?
What were the better terms obtained for Colonel Harding by the Colonial Office?
If my hon. Friend will put down a question I will explain fully what were the original proposals and the conditions ultimately sanctioned.
Dinizulu (Costs of Prosecution and Defence)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he could state what the costs of the prosecution and the defence of Dinizulu were?
The only information as to total costs of the proceedings includes the costs of other trials as well as of that of Dinizulu, and I am therefore unable to give the information asked for by my hon. Friend.
Is it possible for the Colonial Office to get this information, or would it be more convenient that I should put down another question.
The hon. Member had better put down another question.
Vatersay, Barra (Crofters' Holdings)
asked the Lord Advocate, having regard to the fact that the Congested Districts Board had purchased the farm of Vatersay, Barra, from Lady Gordon Cathcart for £6,250, and that it was proposed to establish on Vatersay island sixty holdings for crofter fishermen, he would say approximately the additional expenditure which this would impose on the Board, the size of each holding, and the proposed rental?
Negotiations for the settlement of Vatersay are at present going on, and until they are concluded it would be premature to enter into detail on the points referred to by my hon. Friend.
Will the Lord Advocate say when he will be in a position to give particulars?
In a month.
Old Age Pensions (Case of John Mackenzie, Lochalsh)
asked the Lord Advocate whether he was aware that John Mackenzie, 80 years of age, residing at Altnasuth, Lochalsh, Ross-shire, had been denied an old age pension on the ground that during the cold weather last year, being unable to obtain peats, he secured ten hundredweight of coal from the inspector of poor; and, in view of the special circumstances of the case, would the Local Government Board give instructions for Mackenzie's application to be reconsidered, especially as this was the only occasion on which he had received any kind of parish relief?
In face of the well-ascertained fact that Mackenzie was admitted to the poor-roll and granted relief in the form mentioned by my hon. Friend, the Local Government Board had no alternative but to declare him disqualified, and I cannot, in the existing state of the law, undertake that this decision will be reconsidered.
Am I to understand that this poor man of 80 years of age is denied a pension simply because he had 10 cwt. of coal sent him by the inspector of poor in the depth of winter? Will further inquiry be made into the case?
Education Code (Temperance Teaching)
asked whether the syllabus on temperance teaching, recently issued by the Board of Education, had been under the consideration of the Scotch Education Department; and what action, if any, the Department intended to take to introduce temperance teaching into the code?
The syllabus in question has been received by the Department, and will be further considered. With reference to the latter part of the question, the Department are reluctant to add yet another separate subject to the primary school curriculum, but ample opportunity for such instruction in temperance as the responsible managers of schools may think desirable is afforded under the subject "Laws of Health," which is part of the prescribed work of the older scholars, while arrangements have been made and have been in operation for some time for the fuller and more practical training of teachers to give instruction in this subject.
Could not the same arrangements be made in Scotland as are proposed to be made in England?
That may be considered.
Vatersay, Barra
asked what rental Lady Gordon Cathcart received for the farm of Vatersay, Barra; and the annual value of the shootings which had been reserved to Tier until Martinmas, 1916?
The rent (including interest on improvements) was £353 2s. 6d. The shootings are let along with other subjects, and their value is therefore not separately assessed, but I understand it was estimated by the proprietrix at £50.
Is the Lord Advocate aware that the lady who has received this rent has never, for more than 30 years, been near Barra?
I am not aware of that fact.
asked what was the estimated cost of providing a school for the children of the settlers on the Island of Vatersay, Barra, and the approximate cost of securing for the settlers a suitable water supply?
The Scotch Education Department are in communication with the School Board on the question of school provision on the island. They have not yet received from the Board any estimate of the probable cost of such provision. In regard to the cost of the water supply, I beg to refer my hon. Friend to my reply to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire, given yesterday.
May I ask what was the nature of the reply referred to?
The Congested Districts Board have sanctioned an expenditure of £400 to meet the requirements of Barra in the matter of water supply.
Will more be expended if the £400 is not sufficient?
I should think that that would follow.
Case of John Barr, Glasgow (Suggested Inquiry)
asked the Lord Advocate if his attention had been called to the case of John Barr, a lorryman in the employ of the Co-operative Wholesale Society, Glasgow, convicted of recklessly driving a horse yoked to a lorry, and to the suggestions which had been made of malice in the case; and would he make inquiry into the case?
This case has already been brought under the notice of the Secretary for Scotland, who caused inquiry to be made, and upon the information before him formed the opinion, in which I entirely concur, that there was no foundation for any allegation that the officials responsible for the complaints against Barr were actuated by malicious motives.
Tottenham Inquest and Vaccination
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he is aware that an inquest was held on 24th May on the body of Jack Bond, aged eight weeks, in the care of Mrs. Wilson, registered foster-mother, of Elsdon-road, Tottenham; if he is aware that the child had been vaccinated in four large places, notwithstanding that it had a broken thigh, and that evidence was given by Dr. Wainwright that vaccination made the child worse; will he say if the vaccination of these infants is in accordance with the instructions of the inspectors of the Local Government Board; and, if not, whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I am aware of the inquest on this child, and I have obtained a copy of the depositions taken by the coroner. It appears from the evidence of Dr. Wainwright, who made the post-mortem examination, that there was an old fracture of the thigh, which had set badly, and that the child had been vaccinated. The depositions do not contain the statement attributed to Dr. Wain- wright in the question, but I have seen a newspaper report of the proceedings in which the statement apears. If the public vaccinator had been of opinion that the child was not in a fit and proper, state to be successfully vaccinated he should have given a certificate of postponement; but I understand that he found the child's condition at the time of vaccination quite satisfactory, and that the fracture of the thigh was healed many days before the vaccination took place. It does not seem to me to be necessary to take any special action in the matter.
Calves and Grlycerinated Calf Lymph
asked whether the calves used for the production of glycerinated calf lymph are slaughtered before the lymph is issued to public vaccinators, or whether they are only hired and are afterwards returned to the owners; and whether, in the latter case, any steps are taken to ascertain if they are suffering from disease or not?
The calves are hired, and after the lymph has been collected, they are removed by the owners. Each calf is slaughtered as soon as practicable after its removal. A post-mortem examination is made, at which a veterinary surgeon—engaged for the purpose—is present. He makes a careful examination of the carcase and of the viscera in order to ascertain whether the calf was in perfect health, and immediately afterwards sends in a certificate as to its healthiness or otherwise. The lymph is not issued unless a satisfactory certificate has been received.
Hampstead Workhouse (Married Woman's Detention)
asked the President of the Local Government Board, with reference to the case of the able-bodied married woman at Hampstead who was able to obtain work, but was detained till 3rd May last in the workhouse at the desire of another inmate, being her husband, whether any sanction was given to this detention by a circular of the Poor Board issued in or about 1842; if so, whether he can state the provisions of such circular; and whether, as the Married Woman's Property Act, 1882, has since been passed, he will withdraw or modify such circular in the interest of the ratepayers and of married women?
The circular referred to appears to be one issued by the Poor Law Commissioners on 5th February, 1842. It contained the following passage:—
"It seems doubtful if the guardians have the power to prevent the wife from leaving the workhouse without her husband; but the husband can if he thinks fit, detain her in the workhouse by his marital authority, and the guardians would be justified in refusing her permission to quit the house under such circumstances."
The circular accompanied a general order on workhouse rules, which has long since been rescinded. It remains as an expression of opinion entertained by the Poor Law Commissioners at the time it was issued, and cannot be withdrawn, but it has no operative force. I am not aware of any sufficient reason for issuing a further circular on the subject.
Bathrooms in Dwelling Houses
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he has seen the report of Mr. E. A. Miles to the Lambeth Borough Council at their meeting on the 17th instant, to the effect that bathrooms in a large number of houses inspected by him in his district were used as lumber-rooms and coal-houses; will he say what were the exact figures in Mr. Miles's report; if his Department has further information as to similar reports, giving the particulars, will he state them; and what action is it proposed to take in this matter?
I think my hon. Friend is under some misapprehension in this matter. I understand that no report to the effect mentioned by him has been made to the Lambeth Borough Council, but that, at their meeting on the 17th instant, Mr. Mills, one of the borough councillors, stated that he had been informed by a friend that in a certain district outside London, the name of which he did not mention, a landlord had fitted baths in about 40 workmen's dwellings and that the landlord's agent had shortly afterwards discovered that in half the cases the baths had been used by the tenants for storing coals and other materials. The Local Government Board have no information as to any cases of the kind.
Luthrie, Lindores, etc. (Postal Service)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he will consider the feasibility of improving the postal service for Luthrie, Lindores, and the neighbourhood, by making use of the Newburgh and North of Fife Railway, which now has a regular train: service through the district?
I have already considered the question of using this railway for the purpose of improving the postal service in the district to which my hon. Friend refers, and a mail for Kilmany is already sent over it, with the result that a material acceleration of the morning delivery has been effected at that place. It appears, however, that with the present service of trains no advantage would be gained by using the line for the mails for other places than Kilmany.
American Mails (Rosslare-Fishguard Route)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the Wexford County Council passed a resolution on 14th instant calling attention to the facilities afforded by the Rosslare-Fish-guard route for the carriage from Queenstown of the American mails for London, the entire South of England and Wales, and the Continent, and pointing out that the adoption of this route will accelerate the delivery of these mails by at least two hours over present arrangements; that this acceleration might be increased by at least a further hour by the construction of a connecting line of railway between either Cork and Fermoy, or Youghal and Dungarvan; and whether he proposes to do anything that will in some measure give effect to the resolution?
I am aware of the resolution referred to. As I recently explained to my hon. Friend, there are practical difficulties in the way of despatching the heavy inward American mails by the Rosslare-Fishguard route. Even if these were overcome, the regular use of this route instead of the Dublin route for the special train services would result in a later arrival of the mails for the North of England and also in many cases of those for Dublin and the greater part of Ireland. The question of constructing a connecting line of railway to shorten the distance to Rosslare is one for the railway companies to consider.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Rosslare-Fishguard quay has an equipment of electric cranes, and that there the mails can be shipped from the steamer to the train and vice versâ in a few minutes, and could not the American mails, late for the Dublin train, be sent on by the Rosslare-Fishguard route, so to arrive in London earlier; and will the right hon. Gentleman inquire?
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are very anxious to make use of this line in so far as it will accelerate mails, and, though we have gone very fully into the matter, I shall be glad to have any further information the hon. Member has to offer.
Vatersay Farm, Barra
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will state the number of sheep on the farm of Vatersay, Barra, taken over by the Congested Districts (Scotland) Board and the cost thereof to the Board?
The transfer of sheep stock is at present the subject of arbitration, and my hon. Friend will recognise that it is inexpedient to publish any details while negotiations are proceeding.
Why does the Lord Advocate refuse to state the number of sheep taken over by the Congested Districts Board? This subject was pretty fully discussed in another place by Lord Camperdown—why deny the information to this House?
Congested Districts (Scotland) Board
asked, having regard to the fact that out of 125,146 acres of land dealt with by the Congested Districts (Scotland) Board since the passing of the Act in 1897, no less than 103,543 acres are in Inverness-shire alone, and seeing that the total acreage secured for all the other five counties is only 21,603 acres, will the Board be instructed to formulate their land schemes in future on a more equitable basis?
My hon. Friend's figures do not present, as of course he is aware, a complete statement of the case. And I have nothing to add to my reply of yesterday on this subject.
My figures are taken from the Reports of the Congested Districts Board. By whom are these unsatisfactory answers prepared: by the office-boy of the Scottish Office, the Lord Advocate, or Lord Pentland, the Secretary for Scotland?
South Atlantic Squadron (1904.)
asked for what purpose ships, of war were stationed in the South Atlantic in 1904, and why they were subsequently withdrawn?
I cannot undertake to give the reasons which prompted the late Government to take the action referred to in 1904.
Arising out of that answer, am I to understand that the First Lord of the Admiralty will not answer questions connected with Admiralty policy and administration?
No, Sir. You are to understand that the First Lord declines to answer questions which depend upon the responsibility of the late Government.
Are we to understand that there is no record at the Admiralty of the reasons why these ships were stationed and subsequently withdrawn?
I know of no record of the reasons which prompted the late Government to any steps they may have taken.
I beg to give notice, owing to the unsatisfactory answers, to ask the Prime Minister a question.
May I inquire if that is the way to keep the Admiralty out of party politics?
H.M.S. "Assistance" (Accident at Portsmouth)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the accident which occurred on 27th May to a seaman named Charles Collard while coaling the "Assistance" in Portsmouth Harbour; whether he was represented at the inquest; and, if so, what was the nature of the jury's verdict?
A report on the subject has been received. The Admiralty was represented at the inquest by their local law agent. The jury returned a verdict of "Accidental death caused through the breaking of a faulty strop," and added as a rider that they considered that an Admiralty order should be printed and issued to all ships coaling at the depot. Emphasis has now been given to local orders, which already existed prior to the accident, by issue of a general port order on the subject, in the sense of the jury's recommendation, which it is hoped will have the effect of ensuring adequate care being taken by all concerned in future.
Protection of Irish Fisheries
asked whether, in view of the necessity of affording better protection to Irish fisheries and enforcing the provisions of the Trawling in Prohibited Areas measure, and in view of the demand made on Irish taxpayers towards naval expenditure this year, the Admiralty will place at the disposal of the Irish fishery authorities some gunboats to assist in preventing illegal fishing off the Irish coast?
The supervision of the Irish fisheries is carried out by two cruisers, but one is temporarily detained in, the North Sea until after the naval manœuvres. Any circumstances requiring the presence of additional ships, and any representation made by the Irish authorities as to any special need arising at the present time would be considered. The measure referred to does not appear directly to affect the action of His Majesty's ships.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for many years the Admiralty have placed at the disposal of thy Scottish Fishery Board boats for the protection of the Scottish fisheries, and can he explain why we, who require more protection owing to the number of boats coming across from the Scottish coast, are denied it?
I think the purport of my reply shows that, so far from that being the fact, two cruisers are kept available for this particular purpose.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any information as to the work these two cruisers have been doing? He can consult his colleague, the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture, and ascertain from him whether it is not a fact that one boat, the "Helga," has been unable to perform the work thrown upon it?
I have stated, in the course of my reply, that any representation to the Admiralty on behalf of the Irish Board of Agriculture would be considered.
Will the right hon. Gentleman himself consult the Irish Board of Agriculture, who is now sitting two paces from him?
I have already had the advantage of a consultation with my right hon. Friend the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture.
How many boats are placed at the disposal of the Scottish fisheries by the Admiralty?
I require notice of that question.
Will the boats sent to Ireland be taken from the protection of the trawling grounds off Scotland?
Old Age Pensions (Kerry Sub-Committees)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury on how many old age pensions the secretaries of the sub-pension committees in Kerry have been paid fees?
The clerks to the sub-committees (28 in number) have been paid fees for 9,812 claims and questions dealt with in the quarter to 31st December, 1908. Accounts in which fees are charged by the clerks to the sub-committees for 1,452 claims and questions dealt with in the quarter to 31st March, 1909, were received on the 31st ultimo, and are now under examination.
Old Age Pensions (Poor Law Belief)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that pension allowances passed by the Tipperary pension committee to persons in receipt of poor relief, both indoor and outdoor, which were certified for by two medical doctors, were not sanctioned by the Local Government Board; and if he will (as the Local Government Board has refused to) state the reasons why the orders of the committee in those cases of bonâ fide medical relief were not carried out?
replied: In the absence of particulars regarding the individual cases referred to I am not in a position to reply to the general statement made in the first part of the question. The decisions of the Local Government Board in all such cases are based on the terms of the Act and of their explanatory circular letters on the subject.
Is it not sufficient justification that two medical officers certified for the relief to these poor people?
I am not aware of the particular case referred to, but there is an appeal to the Local Government Board, and they must be satisfied on the point in question.
I can send the right hon. Gentleman dozens of such cases.
Tests for Motor Spirit
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will lay upon the Table the regulations prescribing the tests for motor spirit to be made by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise under Clause 64 (9) of the Finance Bill?
Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to answer for my right hon. Friend, who is overwhelmed with the consideration of Amendments to the Finance Bill.
The regulations referred to in Clause 64 (9) of the Finance Bill can only be made after the passing of the Bill. I may, however, explain that in the meantime and for the purpose of giving effect to the Resolution of the House of Commons by which a duty was charged on motor spirit as from 30th April last, the Commissioners of Customs and Excise have issued provisional regulations for the guidance of their officers. Under these regulations their officers are instructed to accept duty on any article entered by the importer or maker as "motor spirit," and not to allow the delivery free of duty of any spirit the specific gravity of which is 0.800 or less without the authority of the Commissioners. In doubtful cases samples are directed to be sent to the Customs laboratory for examination. I should add, that in accordance with the directions of my right hon. Friend the Commissioners are aiming at the taxation of spirit which is ordinarily and generally used for driving motor vehicles, and are not attempting to levy the tax on the various other substances, which, though not at present generally used as motor car fuel, could be, or are occasionally used as substitutes for or in association with such fuel.
asked whether the Chancellor will lay upon the Table the regulations for calculating the unit of horse-power of motor cars to be made by the Treasury under Clause 66 (2) of the Finance Bill?
As I explained in regard to the preceding question, these regulations can only be made after the Finance Bill has become law.
asked whether there will be any power of appeal against the regulations to be made by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise prescribing the tests for motor spirit under Clause 64 (9) and by the Treasury for cal- culating the unit of horse-power of motor cars under Clause 66 (2) of the Finance Bill?
The answer is in the negative.
I wish to know whether it would be in the power of the Department to change these regulations from time to time or at any time?
Yes; regulations made by the Department can be altered by the Department.
asked the Chancellor whether his attention has been called to the fact that under the clauses of the Finance Bill relating to the tests for motor spirit and the horse-power of motor cars power is given to a Government Department to fix the limit of taxation; and whether there is any precedent for such legislation?
I cannot accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that the powers proposed to be given to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise under Clause 64 (9) of the Finance Bill to prescribe tests for motor spirit and the regulation-making powers proposed to be given to the Treasury under Clause 66 (2), for the purpose of determining how the unit of horse-power is to be calculated in connection with the Licence Duty on motor cars, are such as to enable them to "fix the limit of taxation." There are numerous precedents for the powers which it is proposed to give under the Bill to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise and to the Treasury with respect to motor spirit and the horse-power of motor cars. I may refer my hon. Friend to the powers of the Commissioners under section 2 of the Finance Act, 1901, with respect to sugar, especially in the case of molasses, invert sugar, etc.; to the powers of the Treasury under section 7 of the same Act with respect to manufactured or prepared goods containing articles liable to duty; to the powers of the commissioners with respect to the process of butting of tobacco under section 2 (3) of the Finance Act, 1904; and, lastly, to the close parallel afforded by section 4 of the Finance Act, 1907, under which power is given to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, to make regulations authorising the use of any means described in the regulations for ascertaining for any purpose the strength or weight of spirits. There are no appeals in these cases.
Pleasure Grounds and Increment Duty
asked whether it is the Chancellor's intention so to modify the Finance Bill that cricket, football, golf, and other athletic clubs, who are freeholders or leaseholders for a term of more than 50 years unexpired, shall be relieved from the payment of Increment Value Duty and Undeveloped Land Duty, and thereby continue to exist?
The hon. Member has doubtless considered the provisions of Clause 11 (3) in this connection. Land used for games which does not come within the provisions of this sub-clause as not being used for the benefit of the public or as not fulfilling the other conditions specified, will be subject to Undeveloped Land Duty. Land used for these purposes will also under the Bill be subject to Increment Value Duty. As at present advised, my right hon. Friend does not see his way to modify his proposals in regard to this matter, but he will be glad to consider suggestions which may be made to him.
Would the hon. Gentleman at any rate consider the advisability of exempting clubs which have a covenant in the lease that they should not build on the land?
Yes, certainly.
Will the hon. Gentleman advise the Chancellor to consider the question of exempting playgrounds belonging to schools and colleges and societies whose grounds are used purely for recreation purposes?
Any representations of this character will certainly receive the very sympathetic consideration of my right hon. Friend.
Licence Duties (Scotland)
asked whether the Chancellor could see his way to graduate the licence duties of wholesale dealers in spirituous liquors in Scotland, in view of the fact that some of the smaller dealers make only a bare living at the trade, whereas the larger dealers make large sums?
My right hon. Friend does not think that duties graduated according to the annual value of premises would be suitable for licences granted to wholesale dealers in liquors, having regard to the fact that many of these licences are held by persons who have merely one or two rooms used as offices. The licence to a retailer, which can be granted independently of the wholesale licence, authorises sales in quantities which seem to him to be suitable for the smaller dealers. The duty upon this licence is graduated according to the annual value of the premises in respect of which the licence is granted.
Chemists' Medicated Wine Licences
asked whether the Chancellor's attention has been called to the fact that chemists in Scotland have to take out a licensed grocer's or off-licence in order to sell medicated wines to the order of the medical profession, charitable institutions, infirmaries, and other like bodies; whether he is aware that the proposed increase of duty will bear hard on these traders, making it necessary for them in many cases to relinquish that part of their business with inconvenience to the public; and whether he will grant to chemists a special licence to sell such medicaments?
Under the practice of the Board of Customs and Excise wines sufficiently medicated to be regarded as medicines may be sold by registered chemists and druggists without a licence, provided that the directions as to dose, etc., on the label clearly indicate that the article is intended for use as a medicine and not as a beverage. My right hon. Friend assumes, therefore, that the wines to which my hon. Friend refers, though called medicated, are not sufficiently medicated to pass the official test of the Government Laboratory, and he does not think it would be desirable to lower the standard at present insisted on.
Brewery and Retail Premises
asked the Chancellor if he would state whether, in the case of a retail public-house where a small brewery is attached, the licensee will have to pay a duty according to the assessment of the brewery and retail premises as well as the new duty on beer as brewer; and whether the assessment committees will be compelled to make separate assessments of such places?
The brewer's licence is entirely distinct from the public-house licence, and, as at present, two licences will be required where a brewery business and a public-house business are carried on upon one set of premises. The only difference arising under the Bill is that, whereas at present the duty on a licence to a brewer for sale is the fixed duty of £1, the duty in future, if the number of barrels brewed in the year exceeds 100, will instead of being £1 depend upon the number of barrels brewed. As a rule, the two businesses are carried on in such a manner that the premises used for one business are not distinct from the premises used for the other business, and where this is so there is only one assessment; and it would be impossible for the Assessment Committee to make separate assessments of such places.
Cultivation of Tobacco (England and Wales)
asked whether sub-section (5) of Clause 63 of the Finance Bill is to be read as meaning that on and after 1st January, 1910, the cultivation of tobacco will be entirely unrestricted throughout England and Wales; and whether, if this is so, he will consider the desirability of devoting some part of the proposed Development Grant to the encouragement of this industry in England and Wales?
The effect of the clause in question will be to allow tobacco to be grown by any person in England and Wales subject to a payment of an annual licence of 5s., and to compliance with regulations to be made by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise under section 3 of the Finance Act, 1908. As regards the latter part of the question, my right hon. Friend will be glad to consider any proposals of the kind which may be laid before him.
May I ask whether the answer applies to Scotland?
Yes, certainly.
National Military Training Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the general support recently given to the movement for entailing on every man the duty of giving personal service to his country, he will consider the advisability of giving facilities for passing the National Military Training Bill?
No, Sir, I cannot offer the hon. Member any encouragement.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in the matter of the admitted necessity of every man giving personal service for the defence of our country, he agrees with Mr. Punch that our political leaders are all talk and no go?
Indian Deportations (Budget)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the interest felt by many hon. Members in the question of Indian deportations, he will be able to arrange for an early discussion on the Indian Estimates?
asked whether he sees any objection to fixing an early date for the discussion of the Indian Budget?
asked whether, in view of the fact that a large number of Members desire to discuss the policy of deportation in India, he will arrange for the Indian Budget to be taken at an early date?
Pehaps I may be allowed to answer the three questions at the same time. I hope that there will be no undue delay, but I am not yet in a position to fix a date.
In view of the fact that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be in charge of the Indian Budget and also of the Excise Clauses of the Budget Bill, would it not be for his convenience that the Indian Budget should be taken whilst the Land Clauses of the Budget are under consideration, and whilst he will be at comparative liberty?
Perhaps the hon. Member had better wait for the present.
Stage Plays (Censorship)
I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to appoint a Committee of inquiry into the working of the censorship over stage plays previous to production, and also the forms of licence granted respectively to theatres and music halls, with a view to considering whether legislation is desirable?
After consideration, I think the time has come when a further inquiry into these matters might well be held. The best instrument for such an inquiry will be a Joint Committee of the two Houses.
Ungotten Mineral Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is the intention of the Government to charge the tax for ungotten minerals for land where excavation would destroy the land for building purposes or jeopardise the foundations of the buildings thereon; and whether land subject to the tax for un-development will be exempt from the Mineral Tax, or whether such land is to be taxed doubly in spite of the fact that development in buildings renders it unsuitable for mining and mining renders it unsuitable for building?
The question whether the duties on undeveloped land and on ungotten minerals would or would not be payable, either separately or conjointly, is one which can only be answered in a given case when the facts have been duly ascertained. I may, however, point out that in a case where mining operations would affect the value of land for building purposes they would correspondingly affect the value subject to Undeveloped Land Duty; and similarly the value of the mineral rights would be affected in a case where the fact of land being built upon would render it impossible to work the minerals beneath it without risk of incurring heavy charges for compensation.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that in any case those subjects will be taxed on the same land?
I mean that the circumstances with regard to building land and undeveloped land will act and react upon each other.
Then the same land may be subject to both taxes?
It is possible, but not, I think, conceivable.
I do not quite understand the right hon. Gentleman's reply. Did he say "possible but not conceivable," because I do not understand that answer. Will the hon. Member kindly explain?
It is difficult by question and answer to explain a detailed point of this sort. What I meant to say was that circumstances may possibly arise, but will not probably arise.
I wish to ask the hon. Gentleman whether in any single case in the United Kingdom any damage can be done to land on which no buildings have been erected where subsidence has already taken place?
Oh, yes; I can conceive such a case, and I have a case in my mind.
Evicted Tenants (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland why Mr. Gerald Byrne, an evicted tenant from Luggacurren, who has been given a new holding at Upton, county Carlow, has been refused a free grant for building purposes, when all the other evicted tenants, who have been accommodated with holdings in the same locality, have been given free grants; and whether he is aware that there are no buildings on the holding assigned to Mr. Byrne?
In the exercise of their discretion the Estates Commissioners decided not to sanction any free grant for buildings to Gerald Byrne, who resides with one of his sons on another holding of 70 acres.
Why have the Estates Commissioners come to that decision?
It seems to me that some explanation is afforded on the face of my answer.
School Attendance (Ireland)
Will the right hon. Gentleman state how many schools in Ireland have been exempted from Rule 127 ( b ), National Education Board, Ireland, and on what reasons; how many National schools in Ireland with an average attendance of over 30 and less than 35 are under one teacher; how many National schools with over 20 and less than 30 are under one teacher; and, considering that an average attendance roll of 26 to 30 pupils means that there may be generally from 30 to 40 pupils present under the care of one teacher for five hours, and that the rules of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland admit only 12 pupils to one teacher, will he take measures to man the schools with a sufficient staff to teach the children daily?
The Commissioners of National Education inform me that the enrolment as pupils of boys under seven years of age is permitted in the case of 507 schools in which no mistresses are employed. In most of these cases either there is no school under a mistress available, or the exclusion of these boys would probably cause the loss of an assistant teacher to the school concerned. In a few cases a temporary or partial relaxation of the rule in question has been sanctioned. There are 427 National schools with an average attendance of over 30 and less than 35 pupils, and 1,098 with over 20 and less than 30 which are under one teacher. The rules of the Department of Agriculture permit classes of as many as 40 pupils under one teacher for theoretical instructions. The limit of 12 only applies to butter-making classes. I am not aware of any ground for the suggestion that the staff of the National schools is insufficient.
Untenanted Land (Limerick)
asked the Chief Secretary whether the Estates Commissioners have yet completed the negotiations for the purchase of the untenanted land on the Gubbins estate, county Limerick?
The Estates Commissioners have not yet acquired the untenanted lands on this estate, in respect of which proceedings are pending under the Evicted Tenants Act.
Reinstatement of Mr. Timothy Burke, County Limerick
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what steps the Estates Commissioners have taken with a view to the reinstatement of Mr. Timothy Burke, of Kilduff, Pallasgreen, county Limerick; and whether the present occupier of Burke's farm is satisfied to leave the place upon getting adequate compensation?
The Estates Commissioners do not propose to take any steps with a view to Burke's reinstatement in his former holding, which is in the occupation of another tenant, but his name has been noted for consideration in the allotment of untenanted land.
Wynne Estate, Ballaghameehan
asked the Chief Secretary whether the Estates Commissioners, having refused to reinstate Phil Sweeney, an evicted tenant on the Wynne estate, Ballaghameehan, owing to his age, would consider the application of I the son of the evicted tenant for reinstatement, as the person in possession is willing f to surrender on receiving compensation?
I have referred this question to the Estates Commissioners, who will consider the hon. Member's suggestion when they are dealing with the estate.
Lord Ashtown's Estate
I desire to ask the Chief Secretary if the Estates Commissioners have failed to acquire the farm now on the hands of the landlord, Lord Ashtown, on his county Waterford estate, from which Mr. Carrigan, county councillor, was evicted; if the Commissioners have failed to acquire this farm, can he state what has caused that failure; has Lord Ashtown planted a portion of this evicted farm with trees and claimed it as a home farm; and, if the Commissioners have refrained from exercising the compulsory powers vested in them to acquire Mr. Carrigan's old holding, what steps have they taken to provide him with a suitable farm elsewhere?
As I have already informed the hon. Member in reply to a question asked by him on 10th December last, the Estates Commissioners decided that the lands at one time occupied by Carrigan on the estate of Lord Ashtown could not be acquired compulsorily under the Evicted Tenants Act, 1907, having regard to the provisions of section 7 of the Act. The Commissioners understand that portion of the land has been planted with trees by the owner. Carrigan was offered another farm by the Commissioners, but refused it.
Fever in Ferbane Dispensary District (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary whether he has any official information showing that the spread of fever in the Ferbane dispensary district was due to the incompetence of the medical officer in not properly diagnosing the case when first called to visit the patient, or to negligence in not warning the people of the nature of the case; and, as this is the second occurrence of the kind in the district, will he cause a sworn inquiry to be held and thereby restore confidence in the minds of the people?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. In the opinion of the Local Government Board no blame attaches to the medical officer of health in connection with this matter. The previous outbreak of fever in this district occurred some fifteen years ago. I have already stated, in reply to the question asked by the hon. Member on the 17th inst., that there is nothing in the case calling for a sworn inquiry.
Old Age Pensions, County Limerick
I wish to ask the Chief Secretary if he is aware that the pension officer at Newcastle West refused to recommend for a pension John Sheehy, of Gurrane, Castlemahon, in the county of Limerick, who, on the marriage of his daughter Bridget, assigned the farm and stock to his son-in-law last January, in conformity with the national practice, and Patrick Hough, Ballyvaughan, Ardagh, who made a similar assignment to his son William, in like circumstances, last February; and, having regard to the fact that the pension committee allowed a pension in these cases, and that the pension officer has appealed against this decision on the ground that the claimants indirectly deprived themselves of their means in order to qualify for pensions, he will say what decision has been come to in those cases; and whether pension officers will be instructed to respect such assignments in estimating the incomes of claimants for pensions?
No decision has yet been come to by the Local Government Board on the appeal in either of these cases, as the Board have not yet received all the documents necessary to enable them to adjudicate. As regards the last part of the question, the pension officers are not under my orders, but it is obvious that the consideration for the assignment is an important element in such cases.
Limerick Lunatic Asylum
asked the Chief Secretary whether he now has any information to give in reply to the resolution of the Board of Governors of the Limerick District Lunatic Asylum, in relation to the increase of lunatic asylum charges in Ireland and the insufficiency of the fund to meet those charges; and is he aware of the position those asylums will stand in if they are starved for want of funds?
I am not at present in a position to add anything to my reply to the question on this subject asked by the hon. Member for West Limerick on the 17th instant.
Ballinree National School (Principal Teacher's Pension)
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Patrick Conroy, principal teacher of Ballinree National school, resigned some years ago owing to ill-health, and was granted a pension of £4 4s. per annum, commutable to a fixed sum; why was that fixed sum not granted, though application was made for it several times to the Treasury, and, on their advice, through the Commissioners of National Education; is he aware that the applicant was that fixed sum not granted, though again through the Commissioners of National Education; will he state why that body repudiated their obligation, as he was no longer in their service, but informed him that they forwarded his application to the Treasury; is he aware that, though in the workhouse, Conroy has refused to apply for any pension for the past year as a protest against the action of the Treasury in refusing to commute his pension; if he now applies will commutation be allowed; and is he aware that Conroy was subjected to deductions from his salary as a contribution to the pension fund?
The Commissioners of National Education inform me that Mr. Conroy was awarded a disablement pension of £4 4s. per annum in 1902. In 1906 he applied to have this pension commuted. Under the pension rules a pensioner must satisfy the Commissioners that he is permanently disabled before his pension can be commuted. Mr. Conroy was informed of this requirement, but up to the present he has failed to furnish the necessary medical evidence. Until he complies with the rule on this point the Commissioners will not be in a position to consider his application for the commutation of his pension. I understand that Conroy has not drawn his pension since December, 1907, but he has given no reason for this omission.
Richmond Asylum (Governor's Claim)
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the recent decision in the King's Bench Division by Lord Chief Justice Palles and Mr. Justice Johnson upholding the claim of the board of governors of the Richmond Asylum to give a reasonable preference in all contracts to goods of Irish manufacture; and whether, with a view to putting an end to the system of surcharging practised by Local Government Board auditors in this and similar cases, he will now issue instructions which will prevent these auditors from needlessly interfering with the right, now judicially established, of giving a reasonable preference to Irish manufactures?
I must ask the hon. Member to be kind enough to postpone that question.
Hire of Horses (Middlesex Yeomanry)
I wish to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the men of the Middlesex Yeomanry hired their horses for drill purposes from J Battery of the Royal Horse Artillery, and that each man had to pay 2s. 6d. for the hire of a horse for two hours; and will he state to whom was the 2s. 6d. paid?
The facts are as stated. The horses were used by trained men for voluntary, not prescribed, drills. The money paid was 1s. 6d. to non-commissioned officers and men of the Battery for extra work in grooming the horses, etc., and 1s. to the Battery fund for the provision of extra feed for the horses. Instructions forbidding payments of the latter character have recently been issued, and the money will be refunded.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the men have to pay 1s. to each man to whom the horse belongs as well as the 2s. 6d.?
What the hon. Member refers to should not have occurred, but it did occur. We have now promised to put it right in the future, and we have adopted a system under which it cannot occur again.
asked the Secretary of State for War whether 248 boys from public schools recently failed to pass an entrance examination for Sandhurst College; whether this examination is similar to the middle grade intermediate examination for boys and girls of 16 years of age; whether any of these 248 failures have since been admitted to Sandhurst on the sole condition of passing a medical examination of health; and, if so, whether the social position of the candidates was considered a suitable substitute for educational efficiency?
The hon. Member is apparently alluding to the examination for Army qualifying certificates held in March last, for which 244 of 500 candidates failed. This examination is not exclusively for candidates who wish to enter Sandhurst, but is attended by any candi- date for a commission in the Regular Army who is not in possession of an Army leaving certificate obtained at one of the approved schools. The standard is the same as that for the Army leaving certificate, and approximates to that of the first examination for a university degree. I do not know what my hon. Friend refers to when he suggests that the examination in question is similar to some middle-grade intermediate examination. It is more akin to the matriculation examination of a university. The reply to the rest of the question is in the negative.
Airships (Special Guns)
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps have been taken to provide special guns capable of being used against airships; and whether it is proposed to experiment with such guns mounted on motor chassis?
The question is under the consideration of the Ordnance Board, who are busy with the problem.
Bills Presented
The following Bills were presented, and read the first time:—
Mr. COOPER—Anæsthetics.—Bill to regulate the administration of Anæsthetics (To be read a second time 1st July.)
Mr. MASSIE—Education (Conditions of Grant).—Bill to regulate the conditions on which public money may be applied in aid of Education in England and Wales; and for other purposes incidental thereto. (To be read a second time 1st July.)
Finance Bill
Considered in Committee.—[ Second day .]
[Mr. EMMOTT in the chair.]
(IN THE COMMITTEE.)
Part I.—Duties on Land Values
Increment Value Duty
CLAUSE 1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this part of this Act, there shall be charged, levied and paid on the increment value of any land a duty, called increment value duty, at the rate of one pound for every full five pounds of that value, and the duty or a proportionate part thereof shall become due—
( a ) on the occasion of any transfer on sale of the land or any interest in the land, or the grant of any lease (not
( b ) on the occasion of the death of any person dying after the commencement of this Act, where the land or any interest in the land is comprised in the property passing on the death of the deceased within the meaning of sections one and two of the Finance Act, 1894, as amended by any subsequent enactment: and
( c ) where the land or any interest in the land is held by any body corporate or by any body unincorporate is defined by section 12 of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1885, onsuch periodical occasions as are provided in this Act;
and on each of those occasions the duty, or proportionate part of the duty, due, so far as it has not been paid on any previous occasion, shall be collected in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
Amendment proposed [21st June] to leave out the word "any" ("increment value of any") and insert the words "or land other than agricultural."—[ Mr. Pretyman .]
Question again proposed: "That the word 'any' stand part of the clause".
May I be permitted to preface what I have to say in this matter by acknowledging the timely and generous courtesy of my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment last night in giving me precedence to-day. I appreciated it all the more because I have always recognised him as one of the greatest champions of the agricultural interest who has come into the House of Commons for many a long day. I also welcome the Chancellor of the Exchequer's intervention last night. It was in order that the matter might be made plain that I put down the Amendment which stood in my name, and I avail myself of the opportunity of speaking on the subject this afternoon. I do so for these reasons. In the first place, I maintain that the agricultural interest generally is in no condition whatever to bear the smallest addition to the very heavy and, as I think, the very unfair and exceptional burdens which rest upon it already. In the second place, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget scheme, certainly made this impression on my mind—an impression which was shared by all my Friends—that it was part of the policy of his scheme to exempt agricul- tural land from the imposition of this new duty. That being so, when his Bill was printed, I turned at once to that part of it which related to agricultural land to see how far agricultural land was affected by the measure, and I turned to it with very great interest. When I read it I was very greatly disappointed, for no matter how I might search through the long and intricate clauses of the Bill the only result was to show that so far from exempting agricultural land the Bill did not exempt it at all. The right hon. Gentleman said it would be exempted, but, as a matter of fact, it was more or less liable to the imposition of the duties under clause 1. I think I can show this to demonstration almost in a moment. Agriculture is defined in the Bill as follows:—"The expression 'agriculture' includes the use of land as meadow or pasture land or woodland, or for market gardens, nursery grounds, or allotments, and the expression 'agricultural land' shall be construed accordingly." That being the definition of agriculture, the clause proceeds to state:—"That, subject to the provision of this Bill, there shall be charged, levied, and paid on the increment value of any land a duty at the rate of £1 for every full £5 of that value."
"Any land," of course, includes agricultural land, and the position appears to be this: You begin by making it a presumption that agricultural land shall be subject to the Increment Duty. Search as you may the Bill, as I have done, and you will not he able to find any exemption of agricultural land in any clause of the Bill. I think I know what the right hon. Gentleman had in his mind in the preparation of this Bill. I believe he was trying to do two things which are quite incompatible. I think now that he desired the exemption of agricultural land. It is part of the creed of the Radical party to encourage small holdings, and, more than that, "back to the land" is the cry of his party, and that cry must not be interfered with in any way. On the other hand, he was probably afraid that this might be used as a possible handling for the escape of land which may have some actual or potential value for building purposes. Against this the right hon. Gentleman evidently considered that Tie must be safeguarded. If that is his object, what he ought to have done was to get rid of the presumption in law, and having exempted agricultural land from the operation of the duty, to begin with, he ought to have made the required ex- emption afterwards in a subsequent clause. Instead of doing that he has reversed the presumption of law altogether. I want to warn you that on this point your cry of "back to the land"—and I may point out that this has been one of the most popular of Radical cries—may be imperilled, and you may be treading op very dangerous ground. Proximity to a market must always improve the condition of small holdings. Proximity to any considerable market usually means proximity to a very large population. Remember these are the areas always prolific in small holdings, market gardens, nursery grounds, and things of that sort. You can see for yourselves every day you travel in the country, and every time you approach any one of our large towns, that there is nothing so common as great spaces within a mile or two miles of a town filled in almost every corner by small holdings, little market gardens, or small buildings for the production of poultry and things of that kind. So long as the land is used in that capacity, and so long as that is the sole profit which it affords, I defy you to aim a heavier blow at the success of small cultivation than you will do by imposing this new taxation in Clause 1 and in other clauses of the Bill on that particular kind of land. I am of opinion that before the discussions on this Bill are finished there will be a general belief that the policies of "back to the land," and of the imposition of the Increment Duty are wholly incompatible one with the other. According to my view, for the sake of more employment for the people congested in the towns, for the sake of cultivation, and, above all, for the health of your towns, and for sanitary considerations, you ought, instead of forcing the sale of this kind of land by the imposition of the heavy duties which you are proposing to put on it, to have done your best to keep that land open. It seems to me entirely opposed also to your new policy of garden cities. In fact, the more this matter is considered the more it is thrashed out on both sides of the House, the more numerous will be found to be the arguments which even this Government must listen to against the imposition of this new-fangled Increment Duty. The position of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this point seems to be this. He cannot have his cake and eat it too. He cannot have "back to the land" as the great policy of the Liberal party, and at the same time this Increment Duty. If he adheres to the Increment Duty I am perfectly certain the effect will be a very serious blow upon the policy of "back to the land." If, on the other hand, "back to the land" appears to be the right horse, then I think he will find that he has made a very considerable hole in the balloon which is carrying the fortunes of the Increment Duty on this occasion. I certainly should be very sorry to help him to do anything in promoting that policy.
I pass for a moment to another clause of the Bill. You may tell me, and I have no doubt you will do so, that agricultural land is quite sufficiently cared for in Clause 2, by the provisions which you lay down in one of the earlier sections of that clause. If you do say that I can only reply that I do not agree with you, and for this reason that all you find in Clause 2 is this. It tells us the occasions on which the improved Increment Duty becomes due on the site value of agricultural land, and secondly, it says that it is to be subject to such deductions, if any, as the Commissioners allow in the case of agricultural land, the value of which is due solely to its capacity for agricultural purposes. I am afraid I must, with all the respect in the world for the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, say that the conclusion I have arrived at, both upon this point and upon other points which I shall name hereafter, is that it is a little too much to ask us to accept without demur, and without all the opposition in our power, the four gentlemen who are in the future to control and dominate the fortunes of the land and of every cottage and every house upon that land, and of whom we are now told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer not a single one has had any practical knowledge or experience whatever in this work. All my apprehensions on this particular point, and I assure the Committee that they are very genuine and very sincere, are aggravated and greatly increased by what I must call—if the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying so, and I do not wish to say anything offensive that I can refrain from saying—the appalling ignorance with regard to valuation which has been displayed both by the framers of the Bill and by their advisers in Clause 14. I think I can Convince the right hon. Gentleman that there is something very much wanted in this Bill. It is provided that each occupation in the country is to be separately valued. You must remember, in making these valuations, there is hardly a single estate of any considerable size in the country which is not subject to a variety of fixed charges, such as tithe rent charge, land tax, and Land Improvement Company's charges, and burdens of that kind. If the valuation which is called for is to be a real, true, and genuine valuation every one of these charges, which are now paid as a whole and charged to the estate in a lump sum, must be apportioned between each one of the separate, occupations. When I add to this that the Government call upon the owners of the land in the country to undertake a task, which I believe they themselves have found, or will find, impossible, and make this return, and do all the work which must be entailed, within a period which is described in the Bill as not less than thirty days, then I think nothing further is needed in order to justify me in all I have said on this branch of the subject, however strong and emphatic my words may have been; and I do hope that before this Bill is passed, or anything like passed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have taken this subject into his most serious consideration, with a view to recasting and remodelling, at all events, that part of the measure.
All these difficulties that I have pointed out would be avoided if the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment which has been proposed by my hon. Friend and many others, which I will allude to directly. Not only that, but I am prepared to say this and show it, that in all that I have been contending for, on behalf of agricultural land, up to the present moment, I have the strongest support in the recent statements which he has made—I have the strongest support of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. The Committee will remember that in his Budget speech, not only did he hold out to us the exemption of agricultural land in language which I thought was sufficiently explicit at the time, from all these new duties which are imposed by this Bill, but the whole trend and tendency of his speech on this part of the subject, from beginning to end, was in support of the view I have been urging to-night. Both then and afterwards on various occasions the right hon. Gentleman dwelt on the great unfairness with which agricultural land had been treated in the past, and I am sure my hon. Friends will remember that at that time there was nothing, at all events there was hardly anything, which he was not prepared to do to aid and help agricultural land in the future. We are not, he said, getting out of the land anything like what it is able to endow us with, and there were enormous imports of agricultural and various products, an immense deal of which might be produced in our own country. What we wanted, he said, was to develop the resources of our own land, and he was ashamed, he declared, to contrast—this, I remember perfectly well—all the lavish and wise liberality of countries much poorer than ourselves, compared with the short-sighted and niggardly policy of giving out small doles of money for the use and assistance of agriculture in our own country. Then he gave us a whole list of different things which he was proposing to do in the future for the agricultural interest, winding up, at last, with this:—
There is one other point of the first importance which, if the Committee will allow me a very few moments more, I desire to call attention to. It is with regard to the valuation of agricultural land. A valuation scheme for that purpose is proposed by the right hon. Gentleman. If it is adopted in its present form it cannot fail, I think, to be deeply injurious to agricultural land, and at all events, what it will mean as regards the Chancellor of the Exchequer and agricultural land will be this: that it will leave the Chancellor of the Exchequer again in the position of saying "Heads I win, and tails you lose." If there is no rise in the future of the price of agricultural land on the original value as adopted under the Bill under section 17, why that means, of course, that there will be no means of improvement whatever in the agricultural position. If, on the other hand, there should be a rise, why then, agricultural land, where it is liable to Increment Duty, would be mulcted by 20 per cent., although it may have never reached by any means the original value which it possessed before the days of agricultural depression. I want to dwell, if I may, a little bit more on that point, because in the course of his Budget speech the right hon. Gentleman made a statement which surprised me a good deal. It was to this effect: that agricultural land had probably fallen not much—a little—but it had probably fallen.
dissented.
He threw some doubt on how far it had fallen. He said, while urban land had enormously increased, agricultural land had probably fallen during the last 30 or 40 years, and he knew some cases in which it had risen. I suppose there are some exceptional cases in which that has been the case, but what are the facts about agricultural land? We have the best opportunity of knowing, and they are extremely important. I am quite sure of this: it is evident to me that the right hon. Gentleman has not been well informed on this branch of the subject, because, in the last 30 years, I will show to him, upon the highest authority, the amount by which agricultural land has fallen in value is something enormous. Undoubtedly it does away with all the calculations of the right hon. Gentleman. A calculation was made on this subject by two most eminent authorities and published in 1897—not very long ago. One of them was Sir Robert Giffen and the other, the then chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, Sir Alfred Milner—Lord Milner, as he is now. Both of these gentlemen were examined as witnesses before a Commission. What was that Commission? It was not a Commission appointed by a Tory Government and consisting of a Tory majority. It was a Commission appointed by Mr. Gladstone himself, with a large majority of its members belonging to the same political persuasion as he. What was the decision—what was the Report which they arrived at on this particular point? The result, in a word, of their calculations was to show a decline of nearly a thousand millions of the capital value of land in the United Kingdom during that time, or a decrease of 49.6 per cent., and the Commissioners made a calculation of their own with regard to the fall in value in Great Britain alone, and the calculation they made was this, that there had been a decline of eight hundred and thirty-four millions, or 50 per cent, of the capital value of the land. That is a very remarkable statement, and surely that is something a good deal more than what fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he told us that agricultural land had probably fallen during the last 20 or 30 years, and I cannot think the right hon. Gentleman was really aware of it.
There is another consideration which this raises in my mind, that if it be true that urban land has risen enormously in price, and agricultural land, on the other hand, has fallen enormously—has fallen AS much or perhaps more than urban land has risen—is it not perfectly evident that the same tribunal of valuation cannot be fair for both these two classes of land? It cannot be fair, for this reason. The right hon. Gentleman told us himself that this legislation is not to be retrospective, but for the purpose of increment value he is to take the value to-day, and then the increment is to be the difference between the value to-day and what it may be at some time in the future. But then everybody will see how the position of agricultural land will suffer in this respect. No, Sir; the right hon. Gentleman, I think, is much wiser in his earlier views with regard to land, and this is what he said himself:— serious difficulties which he will find throughout the whole Bill. I have not dwelt on the woes and troubles of agricultural land for many years, because they are admitted on all sides by all impartial politicians, and because after many years there is some glimmering of improvement just beginning if only you will leave it alone and not put on this new imposition, with regard to which you have frightened the wits out of all the agriculturists. If the right hon. Gentleman only knew it, by some things he has said he has raised me hopes of agriculturists all over the country, and now that they knew what his Bill means they are filled with apprehension. Agriculture has great claims in England upon the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman, but Ireland is almost a purely agricultural country. Excepting in the North they depend for everything on the prosperity of their agriculture. They, too, are alarmed no less than the people in England as to the possible results of the measure. I earnestly hope that the right hon. Gentleman will favourably consider the Amendment.
Everyone who has studied the economics of agriculture and the history of agricultural depression will have felt real sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman opposite in many of his observations on this important Amendment. I do not think he has in the least degree exaggerated the tone and temper and the intentions of my right hon. Friend in his memorable Budget speech. I listened to that speech with intense satisfaction, and I cannot help thinking that the intentions of that speech cannot be laid aside. It seems to me that the considerations which the Chancellor of the Exchequer then laid before the country were considerations which must direct the course of the Government upon the important question now before us. I had the advantage of serving with the right hon. Gentleman opposite on the Agricultural Commission, and I can confirm absolutely his own opinion of the depth of depression arrived at in agricultural values and in the general deterioration of the whole agricultural machinery of the country. I think any course taken on the present Budget which can operate to prejudice in any way the revival of agriculture and the full development of agriculture in every sense—small holdings, garden cities, and all the rest of it—would be a disaster as affecting the welfare of the people. The Increment Duty, on the face of it, falls to a certain extent upon agricultural land, but I think the right hon. Gentleman opposite and those who agree with him have somewhat exaggerated the effect which the Increment Duty, as it stands in the Bill, will have upon agricultural land. If hon. Members will consider dispassionately and carefully the deductions which are made in the determination of the site value in the second clause, and still more in the fourteenth clause, they will see that even as the Bill stands their apprehension as to the amount of land which will come under Increment Duty are somewhat exaggerated, and also that the amount of duty which will fall upon agricultural land would undoubtedly be extremely small.
But, still, we are face to face with this extraordinary fact. You had very high values in agricultural land some 30 or 35 years ago. You have had since then a series of depressions which have greatly reduced the value of land, and it is only slightly rising above the lowest point at which it stood at the time that the Commission reported. It would be grossly unfair, even estimating the extent of these deductions, as I have done, at a much greater amount than is credited by hon. Gentlemen opposite, if just when it is most important that agricultural land should have every opportunity to recover its value and become more and more the instrument of the welfare of the people who work upon it, and of the whole community, if you were to have hanging over it an increment value within a few years hence which should operate to discourage and diminish the causes which lead to the revival of agriculture. So far I am entirely and absolutely with the right hon. Gentleman opposite, but I would regard the question from a somewhat different standpoint. It seems to me that to exempt all agricultural land would facilitate a good deal of escape and evasion of duties, which I believe the majority on this side of the House and the majority who carefully consider this question in the country are fully prepared to sanction—the taxation of certain interests in land. Where you have purely agricultural land, there I am absolutely with the right hon. Gentleman that it ought to be entirely exempted from Increment Duty, but where you may have, as is quite easy to conceive without imputing dishonest or discreditable motives to those concerned, the plea of agricultural uses advanced in order to evade the liability to the Undeveloped Land Duty, or to Increment Duty falling upon land which has a distinct and growing building value, it seems to me that the Amendment goes further than is necessary in this direction.
I do not wish to dissociate myself from the main and central plea of the Amendment; on the contrary, it has my hearty and warmest sympathy and support; but I would appeal to my right hon. Friend in the most earnest way to see whether he cannot devise some means of escaping from this dilemma, I look upon the question as one of the economics of agricultural land. An agricultural acre which can only be interpreted in so many bushels of wheat or barley, or so many gallons of milk, or stone of beef, is a totally different taxable unit from land which has building value. In my opinion, whatever my Friends below the Gangway may think of the principles of taxation, I would apply a slightly different process of taxing this purely agricultural land from land which has this increasing increment conferred upon it by other causes than the actual working of agriculturists upon the land, the improvements devoted to agricultural purposes made upon agricultural land, and the whole of those direct and personal contributions to the value of that unit of taxation, the acre of purely agricultural land. I hope my right hon. Friend may see his way to draw that distinction. I have placed an Amendment upon the Paper designed to give a shifting ground from the extreme point of purely agricultural land up to the highest point of building land, as in the City of London, where you have from one point of the compass to the other an absolute series of gradations, and it is obvious that you might apply some system like that which was applied in the Irish Land Bill of 1903—a system of zones, a system of the graduated application of taxable capacity, and the incidence of taxation upon the land, which I think will afford a very reasonable solution to this difficulty. I would most earnestly appeal to my right hon. Friend to have regard to the central fact that this purely agricultural land for which we are pleading is the very cornerstone and foundation of the hopes of the great mass of his supporters who sit on these benches representing agricultural divisions in the country. We wish to see purely agricultural land, and those who work upon that land, set free in some way from the incidence of duties which may tend to diminish the results of the enterprise on that land. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon and the right hon. Gentleman the Member of South Dublin will remember as clearly as I do the facts which were brought before us in the Agricultural Commission. It was perfectly plain, while we were considering the circumstances of general depression in connection with agriculture, that there were certain estates in different parts of the country which, by the application of capital, enterprise, skill and energy, were oases of success amid the general dreary desert of depression and disaster.
We are now in this position. We know very well that the progress of an acre of agricultural land can only be measured by what the land produces. It is measured in shillings and pounds, and to impose a further burden of taxation on that land is, in my opinion, to render it more difficult to devise means by which land which is producing a little might be made to produce much more, and by which land which is at present unprofitable can be rescued and turned into a real instrument of success. I do earnestly hope that this Debate will not go very far before we have some indication from my right hon. Friend that he does not recede in any sense from the sentiments which he so eloquently expressed when introducing the Budget. That speech was a pledge given by my right hon. Friend to remove the difficulties of the situation, and I do hope that he will throw more light on the Increment Duty, and thereby relieve some of us from the apprehensions which we at present entertain.
I do not think it will be surprising to hear that the Irish Members almost in a body are firm supporters of this Amendment. I read a paragraph in the newspapers the other day which stated that the Unionist party, presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Dublin, had resolved to put on the Paper an Amendment to this Bill specially directed towards exempting Irish agriculturists on account of the Purchase Acts, and therefore I assume that the right hon. Gentleman regards it as possible and likely that a special case can be made for Ireland. We will see. As to the case of Ireland, I think I may say without contradiction that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in framing these clauses, never thought of Ireland at all. He was thinking of England. He was thinking of the arguments that are chiefly addressed to the public on this subject regarding the holding of land which is suitable for buildings, and which, therefore, ought to be taxed in the interest of the community from various points of view. As far as I can see, the facts which show that there is an exceptional case to be made for Ireland are absolutely undeniable. Owing to exceptional circumstances Parliament has passed Acts during the last 25 years which, to my mind, have produced a revolution which is now in progress, and which is not yet completed—a revolution which neither the right hon. Gentleman nor any Member of any Government can ignore. I say at once that these are exceptional Acts of Parliament brought about by exceptional circumstances. The circumstances of Ireland demanded them, and Parliament recognised the justice of the demand that the tenantry of Ireland should receive a larger amount of protection than was accorded by law or was necessary in this country. Accordingly various Acts of Parliament were passed, taking away from the landlords the power of fixing rents, and later on, when even that system was found to be unsatisfactory, Parliament passed Acts expressly for the purpose of depriving the existing; race of landlords of their properties altogether and turning the tenants into proprietors. That is exactly why we are brought into the field on this occasion.
It would be the merest affectation and pretence on my part to say that I was concerned very much for the old class of land-lords in Ireland. I think their treatment of Irish tenants in the past was such that they scarcely deserve any mercy from any party. But the whole situation has changed by the mere fact that you have now created in Ireland thousands of small holders, and, in the course of a few years, you will have them transformed, nearly half a million of men, from being mere tenants into owners of their holdings, and that is the very reason why we are interested in this matter. As regards these changes, is it not evident to everybody that if these laws were necessary in the interests, of social order, if they were necessary in the interest of economic progress in Ireland to start this revolution, it would be a most risky experiment, from the point of view of social order., and a most disastrous experiment, from the point of view of economic progress, to do anything to stop the rapid progress of that revolution? And yet what is this proposal? It is nothing short of cutting right across the course of this revolution. It is calculated to stop the progress of this revolution and to throw a damper upon the whole body of agriculturists in Ireland, who either already have become proprietors of their holdings or are destined in future years to become so. This is the point which I wish to emphasise. Whether they have bought or not in Ireland, the tax proposed to be inflicted by this Bill will hit all. Take the man adjoining a town who has had his rent fixed. He is rented on what is called proximity value. I have known cases in my own professional experience in Dublin in which 50 to 60 per cent. has been added to the rent of a tenant who has not purchased at all. He is paying rent still. That has been done because the land is in the proximity of the City of Dublin. These people up to the present have felt that rather a serious burden, but what would they think if in addition to that the same percentage were added under the Increment Value Duty clause of this Bill, and which they will have to pay when they become proprietors? I think this is one of the considerations which make it clear that neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor his advisers ever thought specially of the case of Ireland at all. That is perfectly clear if you look at other circumstances.
In this country the idea of land value taxation is commended to the people, because of the building of new houses and the difficulty of finding land for them. When you point to the fact that in any particular place new houses are being built, you at once come to the conclusion—and the idea commends itself to most of the public—that land in the immediate neighbourhood is by that very fact enhanced in value far beyond the value it formerly possessed, and that there ought to be a tax on the increased value. You will find something of the same kind in Ireland, but the entirely different circumstances there differentiate the case altogether from that of England. Take the case of Dublin, with which I am best acquainted. You will find there in the immediate neighbourhood of the city that labourers' cottages have been erected. Are these to be a sign and indication that the value of the land in that particular district has so appreciated that there is an increment value attached to it which ought to be taxed? It would be ridiculous to say so. Anyone living on the spot would at once explain the difference in the two cases. The labourers' cottages are provided at the expense of the ratepayers, and they have no indication at all that the land has increased in value. The public authority can have these places under powers of compulsory acquisition. The local authorities go wherever they find it most desirable to go, and the very fact that they go to any particular place is consequently no proof at all that the land has appreciated there for building purposes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may reply to me that if there is no increase of value, and if it can be proved there is no increase in value, because of the building of these houses, therefore I have no grievance. But whatever Englishmen or Scotchmen may think, we Irishmen know that when an Act of Parliament is loosely and indefinitely drawn, and when you set to work a body of men, appointed by and under the control of an English authority, to deal with Irish affairs, we know the result and we dread the result, and we are taught by experience to dread the result. And if the right hon. Gentleman says that he is a friend to Ireland, and that he will take care—I do not know whether he will give that pledge or not—that the proper men are appointed, all I have got to remind him is that in this world no men or things are constant, and he may not occupy the post of Chancellor of the Exchequer even for the rest of his, I hope, otherwise long life. I put, then, this point to him very seriously, and I believe that in this matter, although I am not authorised to speak, I speak on behalf of the whole Irish representation I would greatly like to hear the hon. Member for South Dublin (Mr. Walter Long) contradict the statement that the whole Irish representation will vote in favour, not only of this Amendment, but in favour of the special case in Ireland in regard to which I have put down an Amendment myself. I put this to the Chancellor of the Exchequer: Is it true that you have created, owing to exceptional circumstances, an exceptional state of law in Ireland? Is it true or not that in consequence of these exceptional laws you have in progress now, what you yourselves call, and I believe to be, a beneficial revolution. And, if so, is it, or is it not, wrong and inexpedient to do anything whatever to stop the progress of that revolution? And is it not evident that to tax this agricultural community would be to put a stop to the good work and make everyone afraid to venture into new conditions, not knowing what might be imposed in the future on the proprietors of Ireland?
It is perfectly true that the Irish Members—at any rate, the Members with whom I have the privilege of acting—have voted for the principle of Land Values Taxation in the past, but when we did so we had in our mind two things. One was to confine all such taxation to building land held up from the operations of the house-builder; and I think we always advocated—I never remember any proposals to the contrary—this taxation on the understanding that the result of it was to go in aid of the local rates. I recollect no proposals made in this House during the last twenty-five years, during which this question has been debated, on which any Irish Member advocated this taxation and expected that the result of it was to go into the Imperial Exchequer. This is not the whole of the Irish case. I fancy that colleagues of mine will speak after me, but, as far as I have stated it, I venture to say that it is a strong case, and, moreover, a case which is clearly distinguishable from that of England. The Irish case has a thousand times the strength of the case made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin). There are no Land Law Acts here imposing on the tenant against his will rent in respect of proximity value. There is no Act of Parliament here by which purchase prices, if the tenants buy, are to be regulated by the rents they pay, and which rents are fixed against their wish. There is no case here at all comparable in any respect to the special and exceptional state of things which, this Parliament has during the last 25 years set up in Ireland, owing, I admit, to exceptional circumstances in that country. Therefore, although we will support, as I understand, the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon, I desire for one to say that I think the case that I have made myself for the exemption of Irish land is a thousand times stronger than any case which has been made for England.
The hon. Member who spoke last on the other side of the House (Mr. Channing) seemed satisfied that the reduction in the case of agricultural land was sufficient or efficient to prevent any taxation of that particular property. I would like to point out that the deductions to be made are merely for works of a permanent character, and in no way provide for any improvement due to improvement in the soil itself. But the point I would like to draw attention to is that agricultural depression has been produced during the last century by various causes, partly by our system of Free Trade, combined with the fact that freights during that period became very much cheaper than they had been. That depression was always said to have a compensating advantage, inasmuch as it brought to the rest of the industrial population the benefits of cheap food. I do not think that anyone denies that during that period the depression suffered by agriculture has been a very heavy and a very real one. The amount of land which has gone out of cultivation and the number of people who have been driven off the soil answer that question beyond any dispute, and no one denies either that the value of agricultural land has decreased in most cases by at least one-half during the last 30 or 40 years. But what I want to point out is that the fresh burden you now propose to impose upon agriculture has no compensating advantage whatever, and has no excuse except the raising of money, and it is generally admitted that the amount of money to be raised in the immediate future will be extremely small. And that is not the only burden which you are putting on agriculture. It is admitted that already the agricultural interest is paying in Income Tax £3,000,000 a year, due to the fact that the profits on agriculture are reckoned under schedule A instead of schedule B. That is admittedly a very heavy burden which falls upon agriculturists. In addition to that we have the increase in the Death Duties which in many cases will come out of the fund that is necessary to carry on operations. You are taking the taxation here in several ways. You are taking it out of the capital which is used upon the land. You are to that extent repleting the fund which is absolutely necessary for the carrying on of that industry, and the equipping of the farm in a proper manner to be used to the best advantage. Not only that, but you are actually increasing the cost of the transfer of land. Soon every hand we find, I think, that you are increasing the burdens which are already extremely heavy on this most unfortunate industry. It is commonly said that the taxation of land will facilitate the passing of it from the hands of the present owner into those of others, and that the taxation of land will cheapen it. I do not deny that. If you propose in future to put into the coffers of the State one-fifth of the increase in the price of Consols from to-day onwards, of course it would depress the price of Consols, and so this would depress the price of land. But you will, not facilitate the sale because the land of course must carry with it its sting. It carries with it these burdens you put upon it, which are as undesirable to those who wish to buy as to those who are anxious to sell.
There are cases of particular hardship in respect of agricultural land which do not apply to other descriptions, for the simple reason that that land has been especially depressed, during the last 30 or 40 years, and that probably you are hitting upon the moment when it is almost at its lowest, and you start at your primary valuation. Here is a case of which I have cognisance. There is an estate of about 1,400 acres. It was bought in 1875 for £56 an acre, and a large amount of money was laid out upon that estate immediately afterwards, certainly over £10 an acre, making the cost £66 an acre. That land is let at the present time roughly at £1 an acre. After deducting the repairs, etc., it certainly will not produce a nett return of 1 per cent, on the capital invested in it. If you deduct a flair interest for the amount of money which has been spent upon the land improvement, buildings, and drains, you will find that the site value of the land is extremely small, if it has any site value at all. Certainly the land is worth from £25 to £30 an acre at the outside. But is not that hard in eases of that kind, where the owner for 30 years has only received 1 per cent, on his investment, that you should suggest that if there is even a chance of getting back some of the money which is lost you are going to participate in it? The State is proposing to owners of the land here a very unfair burden. It proposes to share in all possible gains, and not to share in the possible loss. It always seems to me on the few occasions when I have been in Monte Carlo that what I objected to most in the game played in that place was that it was an unfair bargain in which the Bank was bound to win. I cannot help thinking that in spite of the fact that the State in this country makes gambling illegal, it is going to force the owners of land in this country into an operation of gambling in which the bank is distinctly against them, and in which the bank is the State itself. I do not suppose that the Government will accept the definition that they are acting in the capacity of bankers in a gambling operation, but nevertheless I entirely fail to see the difference between the unfairness in the one case and the unfairness which it is now proposed by the State to enter into and to take away a proportion of all the pos- sible profits, unless they, on the other hand, do accept some risk of possible loss, or at any rate, to a certain extent, give relief in extreme cases where the losses are most likely to occur—relief to a particular class of land comprised in this Budget.
I owe an apology to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin) for not getting up in the Debate earlier, but I simply deferred answering him because I wanted to gather the views of hon. Members in all portions of the House before I undertook to reply. I do not want to go through or inflict on the House the penalty of having to listen to a second speech. The hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. J. F. Mason), who is an authority on this question and on agriculture, seems to regard the State as a kind of gambling institution, a sort of Monte Carlo on a huge scale, and he says that the State ought to take risks. The State ought to participate in any gain, and by all means if there is a loss the State ought to participate as well; but the hon. Gentleman really forgets that the State is not a sort of bank to a gambling institution. It has to run the management of an Empire. That costs money, which has to be found, and you really cannot make provision for your "Dreadnoughts" depending on winnings or losses at the gaming table. The suggestion made by the hon. Member is a curious one, and he will find it to be absolutely impossible as a business proposition on which to run a great country. With regard to what fell from him earlier in the course of his speech, he seemed to attribute the fall in agricultural rates to Free Trade.
Cheap freights.
I quite accept what the hon. Member states. I put it Free Trade and cheap freights. So far as Free Trade is concerned, the hon. Member must know that the rise in rents began in 1846, which was immediately after the abolition of the Corn Laws, and went on steadily up to the year 1878 or 1879. For 33 years there was a steady rise in agricultural rents in this country, which began with the abolition of the Corn Laws, and, therefore, at any rate to the first generation under Free Trade the effect, as far as rent was concerned, was very beneficial. As he knows, the fall in rents was attributable to other causes, which I do not think are relevant to the Debate. Undoubtedly there has been a very large fluctuation in prices, and a very beneficent depression in the prices of wheat and corn. I do not suppose that even the hon. Member would ever expect under any system that corn would ever reach the price which it fetched 30 or 40 years ago. In fact, it will be within the memory of the House that we have had as low prices as can possibly be attained.
I should like to say a few words with reference to what fell from the hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Clancy). He seems to think that the case of Ireland is exceptional, and that it ought to have exceptional treatment. If the case of Ireland is exceptional at all, it is in the sense that it really escapes this duty, not merely as far as increment is concerned, but as far as undeveloped land is concerned. That is due clearly to the very circumstances to which the hon. Member referred. There you have not got the same growth of population that you have here. On the contrary, you are dealing with a dwindling population especially in some parts of the country. You have not got minerals; and you have got no new industries springing up as in the case of this country, and which give an artificial value to land. For that reason, I am not looking upon Ireland as a source of very considerable wealth. I may say, so far as the land taxes are concerned in the case of Ireland she will contribute a very small, perhaps infinitesimal, proportion, for the very reason that there is no increment in the ordinary sense of the term as far as Ireland is concerned. The hon. Member suggested that we are cutting athwart a revolution. I am very glad to hear we are cutting athwart a revolution, because we have just heard today we are creating a revolution. The hon. Member need not be alarmed at all that the tax will interefere with the very beneficial operation of land legislation in Ireland. No part of the proposals of this Bill will affect agriculture so far as the ordinary fluctuations of the agricultural industry are concerned. I should like, therefore, to ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite what he really means by this Amendment. Does he mean to exclude all land from increment which is used at all for agricultural purposes wherever it is situated, and whatever the increase in the value of the land may be attributable to? That is really the important point. For instance, you have a piece of land which is used for agricultural purposes in the neighbourhood of a town. Everybody knows that the main part of its value is not attributable to its agricultural qualities. It is attributable to two reasons. First of all, it has an enhanced agricultural value which is due to the fact that it is near to a market. It is near to a great aggregation of people, and land which might only be worth £1 an acre, say, if it is 30 or 40 miles away from a town, is worth about £5 an acre as accommodation land. That is not agricultural value in the ordinary sense of the term; it is accommodation value which is created by the enterprise and energy of the population outside that area.
I want to know, first of all, does the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin) mean in his definition of agricultural value to include that value which is artificially created by, say, the opening up of a mine, by the starting of a new industry, or by the growth of a great town in that direction? Does he mean to include that value in the agricultural value in proposing this Amendment? I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to answer now, because I do not think it is fair to institute a sort of cross-examination of a Member or ask him to answer by way of interruption when he cannot give fully the explanatory reply which is absolutely necessary in order to put his proposition fairly. Land used for agricultural purposes, from the mere fact of its being near to a town, has four times the value even for agricultural purposes, which it would possess if it were far removed from any aggregation of population. There is a sudden growth which might be made in the course of a year or two, whereby the land would rise from £1 an acre to £4 or £5 an acre, due to the facilities afforded by the opening of a mine or new industry. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to exclude that increment from taxation? The second increment I want to put is this. Land may be used for agricultural purposes, yet may have a special value as building land in addition to that. I can give cases within my own experience. Land let at about £2 or £3 an acre in the neighbourhood of a town has a building value of about £500 an acre, or even £1,000 an awe. If the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment is carried it will exclude the whole of that valuation. What is left? The right hon. Gentleman might as well negative the whole. All that would be left would be land which is not used at all, which is not cultivated, and which would be a perfect waste. The increment value upon it could produce no result, and there would be no yield for which it would be worth taking up the time of the House. You exclude land used for agricultural purposes, but which has a special value artificially given to it by the proximity of a town. I should like to know, therefore, if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon or the Leader of the Opposition will be good enough to answer the question, whether it is proposed to exclude these two values. If so, I want to know how it is possible to defend it? Let us discuss it now on the assumption that increment value is to be imposed, because if his is an argument against the whole of the Increment Tax, that is a different matter; but the House must assume for a moment that there is an Increment Tax to be imposed, and it is to be imposed on agricultural land. Let me put this to the House. If land which is quadrupled in value, owing to the opening up of a new industry, or a new colliery, or to the growth of a town, is to be excluded, on what principle can I expect to take an increment tax from a builder, say when his increment is only about 50 per cent.?
Take it in neither.
That is an argument against the whole tax. That is not the proposition here. We are now dealing with a particular Amendment, and, if I may say so, I think it would be better when we are discussing Amendments if we confined ourselves to the one issue before the House.
I will put that again. Here you have land which is worth £1 per acre for agricultural purposes. Suddenly it has a value of say £5 per acre because a new industry is opened in the district. I can give cases in my own little town, and owing to the sudden development of a place as a watering-place, a little bit of a watering-place, just about the size of Felixstowe, where in the course of a few years land which used to fetch about £1 per acre fetches about three or four pounds per acre. Why? simply because the place has grown as a watering-place. That is an increase of 300 or 400 per cent, in the value of the land, and what I want to know is this, if a builder is to be charged for his increment, which, say, is only 50 per cent., why should not the owner of accommodation land be charged where his increment is 300 or 400 per cent, owing exactly to the same causes? We come to the second point, of the special building value which is attached to agricultural land. You may have, say, £25 per acre as the agricultural value of agricul- tural land in the vicinity of a town, but there may be a building value on top of that of three or four hundred pounds more. [An HON. MEMBER: "More."] Or even more. My right hon. Friend knows very well of cases of that kind where there is a valuation for building purposes of £500 or even £1,000 very often in those cases. By the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the moment it is used for agricultural purposes the whole of that value would vanish, and you get no tax upon it. I do not think he really can have considered the operation of his Amendment.
What really the right hon. Gentleman is aiming at is this, that he wants to exclude agricultural land from Increment Taxes which may be the result of mere fluctuations of the market, such as the drop in rents which have taken place within the last few years, and which are beginning to rise. It may be a steady rise for the next 10 or 20 years, and it might put agriculture somewhere near the height it attained in the year 1879. Now, the right hon. Gentleman says, "here you have got agricultural land which has been going up and down and it is very unfair that you should take it at a point, not at its lowest it is true, but at a point which is somewhere near its ebb, and then, having the value of this land at its lowest, to then say that every year there is a rise you should get or take 20 per cent, of it." That is exactly what we are not doing. By a section of Clause 2 of the Finance Bill the Committee will find, if they work out the provision, that we have safeguarded agriculture against a contingency of that kind. [Hon. MEMBERS: "No, no."] Well, at any rate let me make this admission on the question of principle. I agree that agriculture ought to be safeguarded against that state of things. I admit, and I go further than that when I say that I intended by that section to do that, and I go beyond that and say if on examination of that provision it is discovered that it does not adequately protect agriculture against that operation, I shall be perfectly prepared to accept any Amendments that would adequately and beyond question safeguard agriculture against that. Because I do not think it is fair, I make that admission to the right hon. Gentleman, to catch agriculture merely by that fluctuation in the market, to take it now at a stage when it is only just a few rungs, as it were, from the bottom of the ladder. It is climbing, I admit, in some parts of the country; in others it is still very low down. It is climbing—I think it will continue to climb—and I think it is fair that it should be permitted to climb to something which would be regarded as the normal of agricultural value, and I do not think it is fair that you should take the increment on what is really the operation of these fluctuations. That is not a process which you are applying to town lands, and it is not a process which ought to be applied to agriculture. That I admit frankly. It is very difficult to go on discussing the words of Clause 2, and it is one of the difficulties of any Committee Debate, which anyone who has had experience of Committee Debates knows, if I began explaining the provision of Clause 2 there would be a Debate at once as to what that meant, and I think it is very undesirable, if I may say so, to have two or three discussions upon the same proposition. Therefore, I will confine myself for the moment simply to laying down this principle, and I say when I come to that subsection I am prepared to stand or fall by it, and that that sub-section amply and adequately safeguards agriculture against its being taxed on the natural and normal growth of agricultural value.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us exactly what clause he is referring to?
The words I am referring to are on page 3, from line 10 to the end of the sub-section. I would rather not initiate a discussion on it now, but simply say that when I come to that sub-section I am perfectly willing to consider fairly and favourably any Amendment that makes it perfectly clear that agricultural land is not going to be taxed upon that natural valuation, perfectly natural valuation, which I accept. There are circumstances, I think, where the landlord or owner of agricultural land ought to be subject to the Increment Tax. I rule out the cases where I think he ought not to be—cases which are due to those natural fluctuations—but there are special circumstances under which I believe the owner of agriculture land ought to be subject to the Increment Tax. One is the case where, owing to artificial reasons over which he has no control, and which cannot possibly be placed to his credit, there is an enhanced value given to his land by the efforts of the community.
I divide these first of all into markets. What does that mean? It means, as I have already explained, generally, that where a town grows in a certain direction with great rapidity naturally land which was far removed from a market suddenly gets, as it were, almost within reach of the market, and the land is, therefore, doubled, trebled, or quadrupled in value. That is a value that has nothing to do with its normal growth or those fluctuations in prices which I have referred to. It is a value which is created by the community and by those great aggregations of people who have come together. The second case is where there is a special building value which is attributable to the same circumstances. There is another value which is created in many cases, I am sorry to say, by the demand for small holdings. In some cases the demand for small holdings and allotments have put up the value of land by 100 per cent. I know of a case myself where the demand for allotments put the value of land up 300 per cent. That is not the natural value; it is a purely artificial value, which is created by the action of the community very often. I think in a case of that kind a landlord ought to be subject to the same increment as if it had been a purely building value.
There is another consideration which I should like to put to my agricultural Friends. There are Amendments down on the Paper for the allocation of a portion of these Land Taxes for local purposes. That is a matter that has been pressed upon me notably by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir C. W. Dilke), in almost every discussion we have had. I agree it is a matter of the first importance. I cannot now discuss the merits, but I have always thought localities have an undoubted charge upon those Land Taxes, and the Government are disposed favourably to consider the Amendment which, I think, stands in the name of the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Harwood) for dividing those taxes equally between the locality and the Exchequer. I cannot enter at the present moment into the reason for the special divisions, and I cannot discuss at present the method of allocation, but the Government are prepared to accept the principle of that Amendment.
Of all the taxes?
Yes, of all the Land Taxes, Undeveloped Land, the Mineral Tax and the Reversion Tax, the whole of the Land Taxes. What would be the effect on agriculture if all agricultural rural land were excluded from the taxes? I am sure that the rural parts of the country I would wish to have their share of the yield of the tax. But, as a matter of fact, it would be entirely attributable to the growth of the urban population. There would be no increment in the ordinary sense of the term upon rural agricultural land. I am prepared, when the time comes, to prove that as far as ordinary agricultural land is concerned there is no increment possible to charge, and that it is only on agricultural land, which has special value given to it by the causes to which I have referred, that the Increment Duty will become chargeable. If agricultural land in every shape and form is to be excluded from the Increment Tax, even when it has a special value given to it by the causes I have mentioned, how can it ask for a share of the taxation which will be allocated out of this fund? I am perfectly certain that it is to the advantage of agriculture that it should stand in with the rest of the community.
The right hon. Gentleman made an appeal to me not to deal harshly with agriculture. We have dealt very leniently with agriculture in our proposals. I stand by every word which the right hon. Gentleman quoted from my Budget statement on this subject. It is the intention of the Government to deal with agriculture not merely fairly, but favourably. We have practically excluded agriculture, as far as ordinary agricultural land is concerned, from the whole action of the Increment Tax by the operation of Clause 2. Further than that, we have promised to consider the case of agricultural when it comes to the deduction for repairs, so as to give an inducement to landlords to spend money upon the improvement of their estates. I do not think that agriculture can complain that we have not gone out of our way to meet the special case made with regard to it. Not only that, but a portion of the taxation which we are raising now is to be spent upon the agricultural development of the country. [A laugh.] An hon. Member seems to regard that with great contempt, but I can assure him that the farmers do not. I have received resolutions from agricultural societies condemning our taxes—naturally, everybody condemns a tax which falls upon him—and yet these agricultural societies thank the Government for what they propose in regard to agricultural development. I only point this out in order to show that we are prepared to meet the demand of agriculture fairly. All we ask is that when agriculture gets these special advantages from the proximity of great towns, from the opening up of new industries, when the increase in value is not attributable to the action of the land-owner or of the tenant in the improvement of his farm, when every penny they spend upon agricultural improvements will be put to their credit—I say that that is in the Bill, but I do not want to anticipate that point; it is certainly the intention of the Government that it shall be in the Bill that every penny spent fairly on agricultural improvement should not be taxed, but should be deducted from any increment upon which the tax will be levied—I say it is not unfair in these circumstances, when agriculture gets this special accession of value owing to the action of the community, that when the community is in need of money for national purposes a fair share should be contributed by agriculture.
I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for having endeavoured to give us some general exposition of the principles which have animated the Government in regard to agriculture, but I confess that I do not feel even now quite clear as to what those principles are, and still less am I able to conceive the logical justification which the right hon. Gentleman appears to think is so obvious that it hardly requires further detailed explanation. I do not know whether it would be wise or convenient for me to deal here with the point which the right hon. Gentleman has introduced for the first time, namely, the division between the local authorities and the Exchequer of any plunder which he may get from these particular hen-roosts. It is a most amazing change to have first introduced into the Budget after we have got into Committee, and when we are not discussing the position of local authorities at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced the Budget in a speech which, whatever its merits may have been, and they were many, certainly was not a brief exposition of the policy of the Government, and no suggestion was then made that local authorities had the smallest claim to any part of this money.
The right hon. Gentleman is making a rather important but unintentional misrepresentation. I stated most distinctly in my Budget speech that part of the proceeds would be given to the reduction of local rates. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir Charles Dilke), in criticising my proposals, afterwards referred to the statement, and his only complaint was that it was not sufficiently explicit. But I certainly made it.
I think the right hon. Gentleman is under some misapprehension. It is quite true that in the earlier part of his speech he shadowed forth a long series of beneficent projects, upon which part of the money he was going to obtain by this Budget would be expended, and the reduction of local taxation was one. Everybody desires the reduction of local taxation; but I do not think there is a single phrase in that speech suggesting that in any particular tax when laid on the local authorities were to have a share. And in his observations to-day the right hon. Gentleman did not say that local rates required a subvention from the general resources of the Exchequer. What he said was that the local rates had a right to a share in these particular taxes—a wholly different proposal, and one which is not in the smallest degree relevant to this particular Amendment—a proposal of which we have heard nothing from the Government in the course of these prolonged Debates until the right hon. Gentleman blurted it out to an amazed House on an Amendment which has no reference whatever to this particular matter.
I pass from that, which does not seem to me to be very relevant, to what is strictly relevant to the Amendment before the Committee. I tried in vain to discover what kind of increased property the right hon. Gentleman thinks ought to be taxed and what kind ought not to be taxed. He said that he wanted money. We all agree. He said that money must be got somehow. We all agree. Then he went on to say that there cannot be a better source from which to obtain money than the increase in value of a particular kind of property—that that is a source of revenue which it is perfectly justifiable for the Government to use. When I ask myself on what principle is the right hon. Gentleman going to select the kind of property which is to be the subject of this special Increment Tax, I utterly fail to understand his position. There are many theories on this point. I think most of them are bad, but they are not all the same. There is the old theory of John Mill, of which the right hon. Gentleman uses the language in this Bill, but of which he does not in the least take the substance. Certainly John Mill would have said—quite wrongly in my opinion— that the increased value of purely agricultural land was not only a proper but the most proper subject for taxation. He differs entirely from the right hon. Gentleman. Though I think he was entirely wrong, I think he was much more logical than the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He would never have accepted the strange distinctions which the right hon. Gentleman puts forward as arguments for this particular proposal. What is the distinction the right hon. Gentleman tries to draw between land which gets an exceptional value, as he calls it, because it is used for market purposes, and the ordinary agricultural land, as he calls it, of the whole country? He seems to think that the value of one depends upon the community and that the value of the other does not. The value of all land, everywhere just as the value of a railway, wherever it may be, and by whomsoever it was made, whether by the State or by private individuals, the value of this as well as of every other kind of property depends upon the community. It is perfectly useless to try to make these fine drawn distinctions between a market garden within ten miles of Birmingham, where there are small holders who make an admirable profit because they are in close proximity to Birmingham—I am alluding to the well-known Worcestershire case—and land remote from any great centre, where the owner cultivates his land, of whatever kind it may be, under more normal conditions. The value of both classes of land is derived from the community, and from nothing else. What is the value of the great Steppes in the centre of Russia? Where does the black land of Russia get the value of its wheat from? The market here. It is the British community who make the value of the black land of Russia. We do not ask for a subsidy from Russia on that account; nor do we think that we are inequitably used because we are not able to appropriate 10 per cent, of any increase in that value. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that there is an immediate title for the State to interfere, and to appropriate part of the increment when something happens in the neighbourhood of a small or big ownership which increases the agricultural value. He specially instanced the case of a mine. He says that a mine is opened in a neighbourhood, thereby increasing the demand for produce in the immediate district; that in turn increases the value of the land, and of that increment in value the State has a perfect right to appro- priate one-tenth. The right hon. Gentleman must see that if that is his argument, the claim put forward by my hon. Friend for consideration in the matter of unearned decrement when the mine is worked out is really unanswerable. The Prime Minister, who unfortunately is not sufficiently consulted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the grounds upon which special taxes are to be made, has told us that the whole basis of the taxation—of the special selection of land as the subject of the taxation—is that it goes on steadily, smoothly, and equitably rising in value through no effort of the owner. I will not argue as to whether that is the case, because if it is the case, because what the right hon. Gentleman said about the mine proves that it is not the case. If you say that the opening of a mine greatly adds to the value of land through no fault of the owner, then, of course, the shutting up of the mine greatly diminishes the value also through no fault of the owner. Why the State is to appropriate unearned increment in the one case and not deal with the decrement in the other absolutely passes my belief. The hon. and learned Gentleman, whom I see sitting opposite to me, the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Simon), is silent. The hon. and learned Gentleman in an earlier stage of our Debates admitted the value of this argument. He said: "The State takes account of what a man has, and not what he has not. You tax the income that he makes in business, and if that income rises the State taxes it accordingly, and if the income goes down the State does not give it back, but assesses his income on the lower scale." If you are going to deal with the increment of all property in that way I think that might be a very fair argument. It would not be a good plan, but everyone who owns property which through no operation of his increased in value would feel that it was not perhaps unjust. A man buys Consols. The present Government goes out, or by other cosmic operations the value of stocks and securities rises, and he is taxed on the increment. If so, of course, the owner of land when his property increased would not have the smallest title to complain. If it be your view that any augmentation of property without the expenditure of labour by the owner, or that of his neighbour, is a proper subject for taxation, then we can argue upon that basis. But that is not the position on which the Government proposal rests. The right hon. Gen- tleman is trying to draw distinctions between value in being close to a market—let us say some great provincial market, Manchester or Birmingham—he trys to draw a distinction from the ordinary case of land being within reasonable distance of people who want to eat the produce of it. There is no broad distinction. The market for cabbages or tomatoes is not different from the market for wheat or turnips. It all depends upon precisely the same principle—what you can grow upon your land, how cheaply you can grow it, the cost of getting it to market, and what price you can get for it there! These are the elements which determine the value of all agricultural land, be it near a big town or far from it; be it in the West of Canada, the centre of Russia, the neighbourhood of the Black country, or the West Hiding of Yorkshire. To consider that you can impose a different taxation on one place because it has got an enhanced value from being near a town, and to deal with another case under some vague phrases as "depending upon the fluctuation of the market" is bad; as if all values could not be expressed in the words "in the fluctuations of the market," and as if all values of every kind did not depend upon market values.
The right hon. Gentleman has made a claim for himself that in this Budget he is dealing tenderly, and even generously, with agriculture. We must wait till we see in what shape this Bill leaves the Committee before we can form any idea of that estimate. So far, the part of it which has been actually passed is one that is going to throw enormous burdens merely in the shape of valuation upon every owner of agricultural land. That is the only fruit so far of this generous Government measure that is going to help a languishing industry. But it may be that, as our Debates go on, the Government will from time to time be able to introduce some divisions into this Bill which we cannot find a trace of at the present, and which will really be of some benefit to that industry. If the Government does that, I hope I shall not be backward in acknowledging it. In the meanwhile, let me say that it is perfectly absurd to ask us to regard a few lines on page 3 as affording the smallest consolation even to those who are most readily conciliated by any concession which the Government are likely to make. The value of agricultural land is due solely to its capacity for agricultural purposes. Is that the definition of the land which the right hon. Gentleman wants to relieve? Is that the only land which he wants to relieve? I do really wish, as he has challenged my right hon. Friend to say what land he means to deal with, to repeat the challenge to the Government, and ask what they mean? Do these words in the case of agricultural land, the value of which is due solely to its capacity for agricultural purposes, afford a definition of agricultural land, and the only agricultural land which the right hon. Gentleman wants to relieve? I gather that the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to give an answer across the floor of the House. If he does not, of course I do not want one, but he will be able to speak after. In the meantime I must assume that this is his definition in the Bill. Take the case of the colliery referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. He said that the land, the value of which was raised by the opening of a colliery in its neighbourhood, was land that he wanted to tax. I would point out that the land remains with the colliery just as it did before the colliery opened—land, of which the whole value depended upon its capacity for agricultural purposes. Of course, there is land near the town in which it may be just a matter of doubt as to whether it is better for the owner, the tenant, and the community that it be used as market gardens or for building purposes. There is an alternative use for that land. The right hon. Gentleman—I think quite illogically—has made it perfectly clear that anything in the shape of increment on that land he does not mean to tax; but he distinctly denied in his speech that this other land, which to his own view, though not to mine, which remains agricultural, but which gets suddenly an enhanced value, either because there are mines put upon it or because there are allotments or small holdings started in the neighbourhood, he will tax. Well, the value of that land is due solely to its capacity for agricultural purposes; therefore, if this is the definition of the land which the right hon. Gentleman wants to excuse from the operation of his Bill, his speech just now is utterly irrelevant to his Bill. His argument referred to one kind of land, and his speech to another. The same obscurity of thought, the same confusion of ideas, which seems to me to brood over all the speculations, and all the endeavours of the Government to get taxation out of one particular kind of property, has made itself felt even in the latest utterance of the Government on the subject. I confess that it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman has by his speech neither given consolation to the agricultural interests nor any comfort to those who, like myself, would be very glad to see—quite apart from particular interest—what are the fresh arrangements for obtaining this immense addition to our national resources. As a matter of fact, I think he will find that it is perfectly impossible to draw a distinction where he has done it. Just as I am quite sure that no case can be made out for the exclusion of Ireland from this Bill we could not equally apply to England, Scotland, and Wales, so I am certain that the Government will find themselves in a dilemma if they try to pass this shadowy and illogical distinction which the right hon. Gentleman thinks differentiates between different kinds of land now used for agricultural purposes.
Although I shall find myself voting in the same Lobby with the Leader of the Opposition on this. Amendment, the House is well aware that I look upon this Question from an entirely different standpoint. I regard this as probably one of the most important Questions which will arise in connection with this Bill. It is of the utmost importance for the future order, convenience, and expedition in the Debates of this Bill that this Debate upon this Motion should be a full Debate, with no shirking of any issues which are raised and upon which we can take some clear issue in the Division. I respectfully say that it is impossible for us to have a full or satisfactory Debate upon this Amendment without taking into consideration not only the provision of Clause 1, to which this Amendment refers, but also the provisions of Clause 2, most of the provisions of Clause 14, and other clauses in addition, and also taking into consideration the statement which has been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to his willingness, to allocate a portion of this money to the local authorities. Unless we take these matters into our view it is impossible for us to have a satisfactory, perhaps scarcely an intelligent, discussion of this Amendment. Now let me say that with the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman, as I understood them to be expressed in his. Budget speech, and the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman as I understood them to be expressed today, I and my Friends are in substantial agreement. We are in favour of the principle of taxing unearned increment—I will not speak now as to the allocation of the tax on unearned increment. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that he does not now intend that any of the taxes on unearned increment should be put upon the result of purely agricultural operations. We do not desire to exempt from these taxes, either in Ireland or elsewhere, land a portion of whose value is due to its capability of being used for building sites. We do not want to exclude it from this tax:—
This Amendment would.
One moment, I will proceed in my own way. We do not want to exclude from the operation of this tax the enormously enhanced value of land, which, after being used solely for agricultural purposes, it may acquire by reason of the laying down of a mine or anything of the sort; and, therefore, with the intention of the right hon. Gentleman as expressed today we are in agreement. I understand his intention to be—and that his contention is that the Bill provides it—that agricultural land should only be taxed by reason of some increment in its value which arises through entirely outside circumstances, and in no way from ordinary fluctuations in the value of agricultural industry, or from the industry and enterprise of the owner or occupier. That is our view also, but we take up this position, that we do not believe this Bill provides for that. I am now thrown back for a moment to the consideration of the famous provision in Clause 2 to which the right hon. Gentleman has alluded. What is that provision? It is a provision that in taking a second valuation at the time that the tax is to be assessed that there shall, in respect of certain classes of agricultural land, be excluded from that valuation the buildings, permanent structures and improvements which have been already excluded in making the first valuation immediately after the Bill has passed. I do not believe that that is an adequate protection. I believe that under that provision of the Bill it will be possible, and it will be inevitable that that increased value of agricultural land which does not come from its having suddenly become building land, or from the opening up of a mine, but which has come from the gradual rise in agricultural prosperity, I do not believe there is any safeguard in that provision against that being taxed.
Let me take the case of Ireland. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the amount of this tax in Ireland at any rate will be comparatively small. That is due to the fact that Ireland is a poor country, and not a progressive country, that great cities are not springing up in Ireland, and that great mines are not being opened, and that great industries are not being started there. But take the case of agricultural Ireland, and it was rightly said Ireland is for all practical purposes a country dependent upon agriculture. You are creating all over Ireland innumerable small peasant proprietors. Although the process has not been in operation for many years, and although it is only half completed, there is already, in my opinion due to personal observation, a considerable increase in agricultural prosperity in Ireland. I see with my own eyes what is going on, on the land purchased by those tenants: I see reclamation works and drainage works going on, and I am convinced in a comparatively short space of time notwithstanding the heavy impost of high prices, the value of the agricultural produce of Ireland will be enormously increased owing to the industry of the individual tenants. That result of the industry of individual tenants of course cannot be taxed, but in addition to that there will be, by reason of the individual efforts of all those people all over the country, a general rise in the prosperity of the country and in the value of agricultural land. I say that portion of the increased value will be of such a character as will render it liable to be taxed under this provision, notwithstanding the provisions of Clause 2.
Now I pass to what the right hon. Gentleman has said with reference to the allocation of the money that is to be raised. There is a great deal of force, I must say, in his argument that if agriculture is entirely excluded from the operations of the tax agriculture would have no claim in the allocation of the proceeds of the tax for a share. There is a great deal of force in that. So far as my own country is concerned, we would want this money chiefly spent with the greatest good in our great towns, and I would like to see this money handed back to the municipalities to be spent on great schemes of housing without unduly burdening the ratepayers of these large towns. I do not know, of course, what answer the representatives of agriculture in this country will give to the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. If this Amendment is defeated, as I suppose it will be, and if the right hon. Gentleman offers this money to the municipalities will they be willing to accept it? Suppose they had the choice put to them, will they prefer the carrying of this Amendment and the exclusion of agriculture, with no money going to agriculture, or will they allow the inclusion of agriculture with a due proportion to be returned to them; I cannot say. I would not support this Amendment at all were I not convinced that under the wording of the Bill this kind of unearned increment is not sufficiently covered, and I cannot take the right hon. Gentleman's expression of intention in the matter, and until the clause is so amended as to give this protection to agriculture I must, vote in favour of an Amendment of this kind.
I need not impress upon the House what a cruel hardship it would be if any provision were passed of this kind calculated to discourage the new peasant proprietors in Ireland. It would be received with absolute dismay if the news arrived that these men are to be subjected to the new land taxes. It is for that reason I want to safeguard the position and to make assurances doubly sure by carrying this Amendment if I could, and if it cannot be carried I hope the House will insist that Clause 2 shall be strengthened so that it would be impossible to put new and unjust taxes upon a large body of land-owners created by your own legislation in Ireland.
The hon. and learned Member who has just spoken has called attention to the doubt as to whether the present phraseology of the Bill in Clause 2 as it stands now adequately and sufficiently carries out the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I conceive that that question is only indirectly relevant now, and for my own part I prefer to assume that that is a matter capable of being ascertained by examination of the present draft, and if the fears of the hon. and learned Member are well founded, then it is very certain that that will be done which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has undertaken to do, and that the change will be made. But the other matter raised by this Amendment is a matter of much more immediate importance. I venture, with great respect, to say that the speech which the Leader of the Opposition just now delivered within a few feet of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin) was a very extraordinary speech. If I rightly understood the Leader of the Opposition, he was supporting the request of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon. The proposal of the right hon. Gen- tleman is that thought there is to be an Increment Duty upon other land, agricultural land is to be exempt from that duty. What was the whole logic of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition? It was that it was lunacy for anybody to suggest that there was any logical distinction between the two, though in another part of his observations the right hon. Gentleman went on to say nobody proposed to call upon the Russians to pay something because they at present had access to cur markets for the produce of the black lands of the Steppes. I did not observe that everybody in the immediate neighbourhood of the right hon. Gentleman applauded that observation, but there was a still more astonishing contradiction unfortunately in the argument of the Leader of the Opposition—the argument that it was lunacy and absurdity for anybody to get up and say agricultural land should be exempted while other land should be taxed, although that is the very proposition which is put forward this moment by the right hon. Member for Wimbledon. [Some HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no. He did not say that."] I cannot help hearing hon. Gentlemen opposite say that the Leader of the Opposition never made that observation. I certainly failed, and fail completely, to follow the drift of his argument if it was not this: that no man could draw a logical distinction between the proposal to tax land which was not agricultural and land which was agricultural.
I venture to think that what is really important is whether that distinction is a sound distinction or not, and I would submit to the Committee there is at any rate this very substantial difference between the two classes of land. I contrast the case of agricultural land with land not used for the purposes of agriculture, and what do I find? I find that the value of agricultural land depends on the way in which it is tilled and used for its natural purposes in agriculture. I find that if the soil is good and made better it is made more valuable, and I find it is by extracting the value of the soil and producing its proper produce that it improves its value. That is not true of land used merely as a substratum for houses. If a man buys a piece of land in order to build a house upon it there is nothing in the point of view that the land has not the advantage of the black land of the Steppes of Russia; it is just as good to build a house upon although it cannot grow cabbage, and the argument which is overwhelming when you call attention to increase in the value of land intended for building purposes near a town is due to the fact that that value is independent of effort exercised upon the land until purchased, is an argument which has no application to the case of agricultural land. There are, I venture to think, three classes of cases, so far as agricultural land is concerned. You have agricultural land which is so close to a town as the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out, though it is bonâ fide used for the purposes of agriculture, and, properly so used, which commands a greater price value because of its contiguity to the town. You may have a case where although it is land near a town, and although for a time it is called agricultural land, it ought not to be agricultural land at all. It is only kept with a fence round it and with the appearance of being a field because the person who ultimately intends to profit by its rise of value is waiting to make a still larger profit. It is a case parallel to the ordinary case of urban land near a town which gets its increase in value owing to the efforts, existence, and enterprise of the community, but there is a third case. Agricultural land, quite unlike land used for building, may fluctuate in value because it is improved by efforts of tillage, because it is used, if I may employ an expression used by the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), for the industries of land. We have heard in the course of our discussions the expression "the industry of land." In one sense it is understood to mean nothing more than that you happen to be the fortunate owner of a number of acres, and you wait to see them grow more valuable. There is, however, a true sense in which you speak of the industry of land, and it is when you are referring to the bonâ fide use of agricultural land as such. I submit that there is a real distinction between those three cases, and while it may be perfectly proper to deal with two out of the three in the same way as building land near the town, there is a difference of principle to be recognised in cases where agricultural land used for no other purpose but agriculture is fluctuating in value, as may be the case in Ireland, owing to the efforts of those who are tilling the soil and managing it for agricultural purposes, and owing to the general improvement in the condition of the population. If that distinction is sound, then there is a justification for making an exception in the case of agricultural land. The extent of that exception and the difficulty of dealing with it are questions which do not arise now. That it is possible to point out an actual and real distinction in nature and character between the case referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which the Leader of the Opposition says is indistinguishable, is, I think, perfectly possible. The real object of the tax on unearned increment in land is not properly secured if it is going to penalise the man who is exerting himself for agricultural purposes upon agricultural land in order to extract from that land the real produce of the soil.
During the second reading Debate on this Bill the Leader of the Opposition illustrated his view as to the absurdity of these proposals by talking about a tax upon redheaded men. He said that the proposals of the Government were exactly as though you were to select as the object of your taxation, not all men, but only those who had red heads. I wish to point out that the reason why an exception is made in the case of agriculture is this: What if your redheaded man, as he lies in bed at night, finds his hair growing at an extraordinary pace without any effort of his own, and it is not merely red hair, but becomes golden locks. The Chancellor of the Exchequer then says: "I will snip off with my scissors one-fifth of this golden growth." If it were a fact that other people's hair could only be grown to those flourishing lengths by the exertion of their own skill and the expenditure of their own money, would there not be a real distinction in principle between the two cases? I submit that the real justification for the distinction which is now sought to be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is that whereas in the normal case of unearned increment you find the value increasing owing to the contiguity of population and the expenditure of public and municipal money, and therefore the tax is properly applied to the case of agricultural land close to a town, that justification ceases when you propose to put a special tax on agricultural land which is used for its real purpose. That is to say, for the true industry of land which apart from questions of building houses is bringing out the best virtues of the soil. I submit that unless the proposal now made is limited there would be a very obvious way of avoiding the imposition of this tax in any case so long as the land lies near a town. What is necessary is such a form of words as will protect agricultural land where its value is unearned, and not due to the special advantage of the growth of the community. That distinction is one of principle, and I think the Leader of the Opposition is wrong when he says it is impossible to distinguish between the proposal to tax other land and the proposal to tax agricultural land for unearned increment.
What I said was that land which could only be used for agriculture might be very different in its value owing to the proximity of a market, and that the value was due to the proximity of land to markets. If there were no markets there would be no value.
I appreciate the point which the right hon. Gentleman makes. I think I am right in saying that as he views the matter he perceives no distinction between agricultural land and other land for the purposes of unearned increment or anything else. If there is a distinction, let it be stated. If there is no distinction then I trust we shall not persist in discussing an Amendment which proposes to distinguish between them. The value in the case of agricultural land depends, it is true, upon what the land produces and the price you can get for it. Those are world prices, and they vary with the prosperity of a community, with the season, with the extent to which agricultural skill and machinery is employed, and with scientific developments. That is the true use of land. I conceive that the Finance Bill would fail to make a perfectly sound and logical distinction between different cases if it did not recognise that you are dealing with land used for its true agricultural purpose, which may get more valuable because of fluctuations, but which depends upon its normal use apart from the efforts of people and expenditure upon it. That is one category, but land which is only able to demand high prices because it is the necessary substratum for industry is suitably treated by a different process, and that is the principle of this Bill.
I listened with great attention to the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down, but I confess that I was unable to understand whether he intends to support this Amendment or oppose it. He appeared to me to be using arguments which were theoretically without foundation. The hon. Member almost in his last sentence said he wanted to draw a distinction between the land used for its true agricultural purpose and the land which was used as a substratum for industry. Is land used for agriculture not being used as a substratum for industry? It seems to me that if you are going to tax unearned increment, the more you tax it the better. I agree fully with what was said by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, namely, that all property is subject to unearned increment, and if you are going to tax unearned increment, I should like to see all property taxed, including even the large salaries earned by learned lawyers. I contend that their salaries and the large fees they are able to command depends not so much upon their own abilities but on the fact that there is a wealthy community around them capable of paying large fees for their always valuable services. Therefore, as I would like to tax all unearned increment, I am logically compelled to resist this Amendment, which tries to limit the amount of unearned increment you are taxing.
Let me point out to the House the great difficulty in which it will place itself by adopting this Amendment. What would happen? The right hon. Gentleman opposite drew a picture of the good fortune he anticipated in the matter of the price of Consols if the present Government were to go out of office. I am going to add that under those circumstances there might be other things which would happen—there might be a tax put on wheat. Would that not give an unearned increment to the owners of agricultural land? If you put a tax on wheat, not only would you send up the value of land used for corn growing, but you would depreciate the value of your urban property, because you would strike a blow at your national industries. Are you, then, to come here and say, "We have, by the action of the community, appreciated agricultural land, and by the same action we have depreciated urban land, but we, in our wisdom, are going to tax urban land and let off the agricultural land." Is that justice? The hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond) was eloquent on the woes of Ireland, but has he forgotten that the value of land in Ireland has been considerably appreciated by the fact that the taxpayers of the whole Kingdom have largely contributed cash and credit. Has the Duke of Leinster, who received £80,000 in hard cash, received no unearned increment? Why should he be exempt from this tax if you are going on that principle? I do not know whether I shall be in order in discussing unearned increment.
As the hon. Member has asked me I may say that we are not now discussing the whole question of unearned increment, but we are supposed to be discussing whether agricultural land is to be exempt. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it right to open a rather wide question in explaining the effect of his proposal, and I have allowed the discussion to proceed on those lines.
I will endeavour to keep within those limits. May I put this consideration, more especially to my hon. Friends on this side of the House. I fear, when I spoke the other day, that I went beyond what my hon. Friends consider fair in some of my criticisms. If I did so, and if there was anything bitter in what I said, allow me to say that it was said unwittingly, without the least intention of being unfair. If you are going to put a special tax on land it must be paid by the present owners. It will not be paid by past generations or future generations; and the present owner will have a large lump taken out of his property. If hon. Members on this side of the House once abandon the principle of equality in taxation, they will find themselves in a very dangerous position. I remember that the hon. and learned Gentleman for Walthamstow adduced hairdressers by way of illustration in an argument. It is just as fair that barbers should be taxed as that land-owners should be taxed. May I say a word with reference to the extraordinary development in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech I He says that he is disposed to give half the tax to local authorities. Half of £500,000 is £250,000, and £50,000 is to go in expenses. Consequently there remains £200,000 for local authorities. Out of the Budget total—
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but he is going further than this particular Amendment allows him to go.
I will not further proceed in that argument; but I wish to say that I cannot possibly support this Amendment.
The hon. Member for Preston was rather severe with regard to the speech of the hon. Member for Walthamstow, and, I think, perhaps justly so. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us that he is taxing the owners of agricultural land not only with leniency, but with generosity. The right hon. Gentleman's idea of generosity is really too extraordinary. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman seems to be up in a balloon when speaking on this subject. He is full of buoyancy, but if he is a balloon he is a captive balloon, and when the right hon. Gentleman lets forth his gas he cannot help coming down again. This Bill does not carry out the promises that were given in the speeches of the Chancellor of the Exchequer delivered in this House. The right hon. Gentleman has been always very courteous—since he has been a Minister. He is endowed with the old-fashioned courtesy and geniality of Robin Hood and Friar Tuck and those other mediaeval bandits, who always consoled their victims by saying that they were robbing the rich for the benefit of the poor. The Bill consists of nine parts, like the lives of the cat. Every landlord is to be subject to a valuation—not only to one valuation, but to two valuations. There is to be a separate valuation of land and a separate valuation of minerals. I suppose I should be out of order if I went into the question of mineral rights. Not only is land to be subjected to this increment, but minerals also. Minerals distinctly come under this clause. All agricultural land may be valued by any valuer as possessing minerals under its agricultural value. We not only have to pay mineral rights, but after 50 years we may find that no minerals have been got. I maintain that there is no justification in this Bill for the leniency expressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There is another point. The Chancellor says he is going to allow 5 per cent.; but that allowance only comes under the clause relating to Super-tax. Therefore the only relief to the land-owners is to those who are fortunate enough to possess £5,000 a year. It is a common idea to the hon. Members below the Gangway that a land-owner is a very rich man. There are a vast number of land-owners who will not come under the Super-tax at all. We hear a great deal about the idle rich, but the ideal rich were found on the banks of the Alma and at Inkerman. According to the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman, hon. Gentlemen ought not only to be glad to be robbed, but they ought to go away praising him for the entertainment which he has given them. But, after all, we want something more than witty speeches from the right hon. Gentleman. We want to get at the facts of the Bill It is the small land-owner who will be injured most severely by the proposals of the Bill. The fact is that the Bill has been brought forward in ignorance by the Government, who know nothing about country life and who are doing a great deal more harm to the country than they imagine.
I do not propose to trouble the House very much in the discussion on the Finance Bill, because in the main I agree with that measure. Agriculture has always been the great interest of my life, and I wish to do justice to that subject. I have the advantage of knowing something about it, especially in regard to the matter of increments—increments on building values. In my opinion no land with a building value should escape the Increment Tax. I agree entirely with the Leader of the Irish Party in the view that no such land should escape this tax, and for the last 20 years I have had before the House a Bill under which the whole of the increment value would go to the community. I entirely agree with the Government in desiring that no building land should escape the Increment Tax. On the other hand, I do not think that agricultural land should come under that tax, and, as the Bill stands, I am afraid it does do that unduly. The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to agricultural land doubling, trebling, and quadrupling in value, because of the opening of a quarry or coalfield. I know of no such case. I am unaware of any case in which agricultural land value has gone up owing to the development of a quarry or coalfield. It may have risen a little in value, but that would have been due to the expenses incurred by the owner on farm buildings. That one observation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made me hesitate in my support of the Bill. I do not think he has got hold of the right end of the stick in this matter. I am certain that the mere opening of a coalfield or an increase in the population does not add very largely—indeed, it adds little or nothing—to the value of agricultural land. Undoubtedly high rents are very often charged for small holdings, but in England, at any rate, and I wish it had been the case in Scotland, the remedy lies in the local authorities being able to compulsorily lease or purchase land at a fair rent for certain purposes, and that ought to be sufficient to check this difficulty. I do not think we need pursue that objection on this Finance Bill. I am not prepared to admit that agricultural land requires to come under the Increment Tax at all. I think it should be excluded. The discussion to-day has certainly ranged over a very wide field, but, before I leave this subject, may I make one other observation. I will call the Attorney-General's attention to the fact that agricultural land, if it comes under this Bill, is to be cleared of all buildings and fixtures and so forth in order to get at its value for the Increment Tax. Now, under the head of agricultural land woodlands are included. Woodlands in some parts of the country represent more wealth than agricultural land. There are no buildings on it, and you cannot, therefore, make any deduction in respect of them. These woodlands may be worth nothing for 50 years, but at the end of that time they become of considerable value, and under the Bill as it stands the Treasury will take the whole of that increased value, because there are no buildings or fixtures in respect of which any deduction can be made. This is one of the points which will have to be cleared up.
Again, with regard to the proposal made this evening that the profit of these taxes; should go in behalf of the community, I think the great bulk of the people of this country will expect the whole of the taxes to go in that direction, either in taking over local services which can best be conducted by the State or else by handing over the money itself to the community. I think that Imperial machinery will probably be the best for collecting the tax; but the values which have been created by the community should belong to the community, and, if the money does not go to the community, then you are aggravating the incidence of local taxation upon realty as compared with personalty. It is assumed that the Budget deals very gently with agriculture. But we must remember how extraordinarily overtaxed and overrated agriculture already is. One of the most valued public documents which have been pigeon-holed is the Report of Sir George Murray and of the late Sir Edward Hamilton on the Incidence of Local Taxation. It is all very well, and I agree, that agriculture should bear an equal proportion of the taxes put on every industry. It should bear its fair proportion of the burden necessary for the public service, but that report shows that it really bears a very much greater share of these burdens. I think there should be some redress of this grievance at a time when there is a proposal to increase the taxation. The first thing we are asked to do is to add to the burden of agriculture, but we have not sufficient guarantee that the clause of which we stand so much in need will be presented to us in a form which will command our support. The sooner we have the words of the clause, the better it will be. We want to know its exact bearing. On the whole, I think we can vote on the clear issue that building land should be assessed to the Increment Tax and that agricultural land should not be so assessed. It is upon that principle, at any rate, I shall give my vote.
We have to consider in this matter agriculture as an industry. It is not merely a question of farmers or owners, or of this section or that section of the community. It is a question of maintaining agriculture in an efficient working condition. It has gone through an extraordinary stress during the last 30 years, and if it had not been for the pluck of the British farmer and the financial backing of the owner, it must have had a collapse. There has been a tremendous strain, and I am bound to say that, in my experience, agricultural decrement has been much more in evidence than increment. There has been a decrease of at least 35 per cent. in value, and that, combined with the enormous amount of money which has had to be spent on buildings, in order to avert a further fall, is some testimony to the strain that this depression has been upon agricultural resources. If the agricultural industry is unduly depressed by local taxation, and if Imperial taxation becomes too heavy, then it will be impossible for the equipment of agricultural land to be maintained so that the industry may give a full return. That is the important Question before us. It has been proved by a Return that in this country and in Scotland the net rental of agricultural land is about one-half the gross rental. That is so in Scotland, at any rate. I believe that in England it is rather less, but the margin of nett rent is small for the work of equipment which has to be undertaken. It may he that, in the future, equipment may be more economical than it has been in the past, when great expenditure was necessary, but we have no right to assume that any industry can be carried on absolutely without mismanagement or waste. Certainly it cannot be done in agriculture. The burdens on agriculture are already unduly heavy. I think that the Budget, as it stands, aggravates those burdens, and, in the interests of the welfare of agriculture, I am sure large concessions will have to be made in order to put it upon an equality with any other industry in the country in respect of the burdens upon it, and unless you put it upon that equality nothing you can do in this House, or out of it, will make agriculture a success.
I am very sorry to hear that the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Harold Cox) is not going to vote for this Amendment, and I hope I may be able even at the last moment to induce him to change his mind. Both the hon. Member and myself disagree altogether with the imposition of an unearned Increment Tax. I am going to vote for the Amendment, and the hon. Member for Preston is going to vote against it, because in his strictly logical mind he holds the view that it is possible to remedy a wrong by supporting it. I am going to vote against it, because I believe that by so voting I shall be doing something to prevent the imposition of a tax on unearned increment. If the tax is bad the smaller the tax and the fewer the number of people upon whom it rests the better. By voting for this Amendment we shall relieve agriculture, which is a poor class, of a burden which we both deem to be unjust and wrong. The hon. Member's logic is that by imposing the tax upon other people it will be still more difficult to maintain it, but I say the more exemptions you have the more difficult it will be to impose the tax upon the people. I remember I think it was the case of the late Lord Goschen, imposing a tax upon pleasure horses, but he made so many exemptions, that at last he had to abandon the tax, because there was nothing to receive. I claim, therefore, that my hon. Friend should go into the Lobby and vote with us, in order that we may make so many exemptions, that the tax will not be worth imposing, and then we shall secure the thing we both desire, the abolition of the unearned Increment Tax. The hon. Member for Preston, I hope he will forgive me for saying so, but his speeches have such an effect upon me, that I feel bound to listen to every word he says—my hon. Friend feels unable to understand the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Simon). I myself agree that it is a difficult speech to understand, coming from so able and clear a speaker, but my hon. and learned Friend has, it must be remembered, to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has a very bad case, and, therefore, the speech of my hon. and learned Friend is a bad one, because he can find nothing to support his case, and cannot discover any sound or logical argument to advance. The hon. Member tried to point out that there was a difference between a tax on land on which a house was built and a tax on agricultural value, and he began by saying that it did not matter upon what, kind of land you built your house, but I should think it made a good deal of difference. Is there in the view of the hon. and learned Gentleman no difference between a swamp and ground with a rocky foundation to build a house upon, because in the swamp you hare to go to great expense to keep out the water and get a good foundation, whereas in the case of a rock, you have no expense to go to for your foundation, so that even in the case which my hon. and learned Friend gave, there is a difference. Then he said land which is used for agriculture is quite different, because there the results depend upon the exertions of the agriculturist.
Is there no difference between land for agricultural purposes where you have a few inches of soil and then come to the rock? Does that sort of land grow as good crops as that which has several feet of rich earth and which is very rich land? It was not the agriculturist who made that; it was there when the creation took place, or rather it has been changed in the course of the changes that have come over the land in the many thousands of years that have passed. But it has nothing to do with the efforts of the agriculturist who it happens has been lucky enough to find good soil, and so with his labour and capital he can earn money by means of good crops. Then the hon. and learned Gentleman maintained the argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that because land was near a town, which increased its business value, that that should be subject to the Increment Tax, because the market for the products was so much better, owing to the exertions of the community who had made this town, and, therefore, the demand for the products of the agriculturist was greater than in a case where a farm was not near a town. But let us take the case of a farm which is near a railway station. I know, m the county in which I live, farms near a railway station, eighty miles from London. The railway station will, of course, improve the demand for the farm, because all the milk goes to London and is sold there at a good price; but if a farm is seven or eight miles from a railway station the expense of getting the milk to it is so great that the farm is not worth so much to the farmer. That is due not so much to the increase of the town, but because the railway company takes the produce to London, where there is a good market for it. But why should the farm which happens to be near a railway company's station share in the Increment Tax, where the farm which is some distance off does not? It is nothing to do with the farmer; it is simply because he happens fortunately to be in a certain position. Then my hon. Friend the Noble Lord the Member for one of the divisions of Lincolnshire (Lord Willoughby de Eresby) told me a case where the very opposite had occurred, where, owing to the building of a railway station in a small village, the villagers used to buy their bacon from the farmers, they now bought it from the stores in London, and therefore the opening of the railway station resulted in an evil to the farmers. The fact is that you cannot lay down a hard and fast line by which you can distinguish, and really the only thing to do is to vote against the whole proposal, and, as I said to my hon. Friend, if we cannot have our own way altogether, to try and get as much of it as we can. If you cannot abolish a bad thing altogether, abolish as much of it as you can, and that he will do by voting for the Amendment which is before the House.
I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman in his place, because I want to make one or two observations with regard to a statement he made just now. He admitted that there had been a great fall in the price of agricultural land since the year 1879, but I think he misstated the amount of the fall. I can give him an instance, in which I shall be prepared to hand him the names of the place and of the owners if he desires. It was a case where an estate was bought in the late fifties and the cost of the land was something over £80,000, the improvements coming to about £15,000 more, making altogether £95,000. The owner died in 1889, and the people who succeeded to the property—I do not think very foolish people—endeavoured, for private reasons I will not go into, to sell that property. They had no offer of any sort or kind for that property for seven years, and then they were offered £26,000 for what had cost £95,000 thirty odd years before, and not been badly bought at that time. They then had an offer of £27,500, which they accepted, and the purchaser spent a little money on it and sold it—I am not quite sure that I am correct in saying for about £30,000—to an hon. Member who sits on the opposite side of the House. What I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman is, does he consider it fair to take the value of £27,500 as the value upon which the increment value should be based, because if he does and the land were to go up again, he would be taking in round figures something like a value of £60,000 to which he was not entitled. The right hon. Gentleman thinks that agricultural land is likely to recover in value. I think myself that it will very likely do so, especially if we have the good fortune to have a General Election soon. I attach great importance to that. The right hon. Gentleman says that agricultural land is going to increase in value, and I agree, if I may venture to say so, but why? Because the increase of population all over the world is creating such a demand for corn that the grain which used to be grown in America and other countries is not being sent over to this country, and the price has risen enormously. That is not due to the efforts of any person here; it is due to the fact that the population is increasing and the land is not increasing, and so we come back to what is the truth, that all increment, whether it is earned or unearned, is due to the prosperity of the world, and if the world is not prosperous you cannot get any money.
Two hon. Members for Ireland have made speeches, and I think they are both going to vote for the Amendment, as far as I can make out, but they vote for it, apparently, with very great reluctance. They seem to be under the impression that anything which is going to do good to the English agriculturist should be tabooed, and only the Irish agriculturists should be considered. One of them started his subject by saying that there were special circumstances for Ireland, and Ireland had a special case, but the only special circumstance that I know of is, that Ireland has had a great deal of other people's money, an advantage which agriculturists in England have not shared. I should think that if there was any special case in Ireland it would be to increase the tax in Ireland and make it heavier than the tax in England. Then there was the hon. Baronet for one of the divisions of Northamptonshire (Sir Francis Channing), who made some very interesting statements, to which some allusion was made since he made his speech. The hon. Baronet is going to vote for the Amendment.
No.
He is not going to vote for the Amendment. I thought he was.
I gave no such intimation.
The speech of the hon. Baronet was in favour of the Amendment, and I gather then that like other hon. Members on the other side, who all detest the Budget in their hearts but they are going to vote for it, he is also going to vote for it. I notice the hon. Baronet, and I took his words down, said that agricultural land is the great desire of most Members on this side of the House, who represent agricultural constituencies, and he prayed the right hon. Gentleman not to do anything to disparage or impede that great desire. I understand the hon. Baronet, holding those views, is not even going to vote for this Amendment, which would do something for the people in his own particular constituency.
I hate to interrupt any hon. Member, but I think the hon. Member opposite is misinterpreting what I said. I expressed the very firm conviction that my right hon. Friend intended not only by the wording of the Bill as it now stands, but in his promised alterations of the Bill, which he would accept, to meet all legitimate claims that I alluded to with regard to real agricultural land, but with regard to agricultural land which is only so in disguise, and which really is worth £400 or £500 an acre, I entirely supported the proposal which he made for raising revenue.
I remember that the hon. Baronet had great confidence in the intentions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I have more confidence in the Bill. I do not so much care what the intentions are. I want to know what the Bill does. It will be no consolation to the hon. Baronet's constituents if the Bill passes, if the hon. Baronet tells them he put his trust in the intentions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That is rather a weak reed to lean upon, and I am afraid the hon. Baronet will be rather disappointed.
I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say on the second reading of the Bill that he intended to take from the land £800,000 and give back £1,000,000. I should like to point out a much simpler plan by which he would gain £200,000, namely, by leaving the land out of the Budget altogether. That would be good in every way—good for the taxpayer and good for the Chancellor, because it would give him an opportunity of not being so often on that Bench, and we should be able to have some of that beneficent legislation which is so often promised on the other side of the House, and everyone would be more or less satisfied.
Dropping the development grant?
Certainly.
And the concessions under schedule A?
I think one must not be too particular, but I will accept that as far as I am concerned. Do I understand that that is in any kind of way an offer?
No. I wanted to understand what the hon. Baronet suggests—whether I should drop the concessions under schedule A, the development grant, and the reduction in the rates?
Let us be as we were two months ago. I trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer will consider it. It would be a very great feather in my cap if he would adopt this suggestion.
I understand that the increment on leases on agricultural land if they are under seven years would be exempted. The effect of that would be to prevent leases feeing granted. I admit there are not very many cases now of leases being granted on agricultural land, but if prosperity comes it might be that leases would again be asked for by farmers and others, and the effect of the tax would of course be to prevent any land-owner giving a lease, because if he does give a lease for seven years he immediately comes into the reversion value on the termination of the lease. I have a lease of 14 years to a parish council. When it falls in I shall not give them 14 years' lease again if I can possibly avoid it. I trust we shall have a considerable accession of strength in the Lobby, and that those Gentlemen who have been so anxious to see the Prime Minister and express their views to him, will take a more effective way of expressing their views and join us in supporting the Amendment.
I think the Committee has occasionally forgotten what the proposition is before it. It is that agriculture is too heavily laden at present by rates and taxes. It is not whether there should be any adjustment or readjustment of those burdens, but simply, where there is an unearned increment upon agricultural land, ought or ought not the State to take 20 per cent, of it? That is a simple proposition. It may be that agriculture is distressed. I am rather inclined to think it is. It may be that it is improving. I am also inclined to think it is. It may be that we have to face the problem of increment and decrement. I think perhaps we ought, and I am prepared to face it right away. It is perfectly logical and just for the State to say: "If there is an unearned incrment upon property part of it should be taken by me." But if there is no unearned increment upon property it is perfectly right for the State to say: "I have no business to any part of that property, and I do not propose to tax it." The so-called dilemma in which we have been placed by the Leader of the Opposition is no dilemma at all. The proposition is an exceedingly simple one. Is there or is there not an unearned increment upon property, land or anything else? If there is, the State says, "Render unto Cæsar a part of that the whole of which ought to be Cæsar's." If there is not unearned increment, if the whole income is derived from personal effort, and is, strictly speaking, private property, that ought not to be diminished by any deduction whatever, and the State has no business to any part of it. That is the justification, and there is no sound economic answer to that justification for the differentiation for taxation purposes between increment and what is called decrement.
Suppose we were prepared to admit that there was a case made out for special and separate treatment of agricultural land with the increment upon it. Who is going to define that special case? The hon. Member for Leith (Mr. Munro Ferguson) drew from his wide and unrivalled knowledge of agricultural facts one or two rather awkward situations. We admit that those awkward situations exist, but who is going to define what is building land and what is agricultural land? Moreover, if it is just for the State to take 20 per cent. of the unearned increment on building land, how does it happen that it is unjust for the State to take 20 per cent. of the unearned increment on agricultural land? My conception of morality and ethics will not bear that excessive strain. What is just in one case is perfectly just in the other. Leave justice out of account, and come to expediency. [OPPOSITION cheers.] I am glad hon. Members here do not believe in justice. What is the expediency of the proposition. The hon. Member (Mr. Leverton Harris) referred to Alma and Inkerman and other interesting engagements. What has really happened is that by the operation of landlordism, Alma and Inkerman, so far as they were battles of the rank and file, have become practically impossible, and the Scotch regiments that did such excellent service in those engagements have now to be recruited from the slum population of the East End of London. If we are going to measure the deserts of landlords in view of the impositions to be placed upon them by this Budget by certain historical incidents, and not by accurate and detailed inquiry, those landlords ought to be punished more than it is proposed to punish them under this Budget for having deprived us of the power which was used to such excellent effect on those particular occasions.
That brings me to the centre of the question of expediency. I am not sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is right in being so generous as he has promised to be to agricultural land. In fact I have listened to two speeches to-day with a great deal of amazement. One was the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the other was the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. So far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposition is concerned it is this. He says, "I admit that agriculture has been going down and down and down, and I think it has touched bottom. It is now going up, and I am going to be so sympathetic and so generous to agriculture that I am going to allow it to go up and up and up, and I will not draw the line at the position which is occupied in 1909, and say that all further increment shall be of the nature of unearned increment, and, therefore, subject to the tax." There is a great deal of generosity in that. If he compels me I will go into the Lobby in support of it, but it is very much against my nature. We have heard in that connection how landlordism has striven and almost gone into the Bankruptcy Court in order to keep its farmers in existence. I am bound to say those are not my recollections. The words and agitations that I heard in my youth were not the words and agitations of bankrupt landlords doing their duty to their farmers. The words and the agitations that I heard were the words and the agitations of farmers going into the Bankruptcy Court, because they had to supply money for the landlords who declined to use it for the purpose of advancing the interests of agriculture. The income received from the land was a. drain upon agriculture and not a benefit to it. Consequently, if they have gone on as they have done encouraging Conservative methods of agriculture in this country, so that agriculture has gone down and down and down, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be perfectly justified in drawing he line at 1909, and saying that any further increment upon the profits of agriculture shall be treated as unearned increment, because they are largely coming, not from the private initiative and the energy of those who own agricultural land, but from public opinion, public pressure, and public enlightenment, such as the right hon. Gentleman proposes to apply in that clause dealing with the spending of money upon agricultural development. Take the question of afforestation alone. I know thousands of acres in Scotland which are not worth a brass farthing an acre put to their present use. It is not even good for shooting purposes, but there has been an agitation, thanks very largely to my hon. Friend the Member for Leith, in favour of afforestation. What is going to be the result? Draw the line at the value of that land to-day and it is practically nil . The State is going to spend money, there has been an agitation, and public opinion has now been formed, so that afforestation is practically inevitable. By the expenditure of public money and public energy, that which is worth practically nothing to-day is going to be worth scores of pounds per acre 40 or 50 years from now. Is that unearned increment or is it not? If it is unearned, is it unjust for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to draw the line now and tax it under the periodical valuations provided for by the Bill? The case, therefore, is not so much on one side as appears. There is an exceedingly strong case on the other side. I listened to-day with a great deal of delight to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. The right hon. Gentleman laid down the proposition, if I did not misunderstand him, that the community created all wealth. That is much too revolutionary for me. I was perfectly amazed to hear the right hon. Gentleman express that Communist doctrine. Socialism is not in it. That is not merely the doctrine of the left wing of Socialism, for the right hon. Gentleman has gone right into the Communist camp. If it is true that the community creates all wealth—and that was the point which the right hon. Gentleman was making at the time he used the expression—surely it must logically follow that the community should own the wealth it creates. Therefore, it is not a question of a 20 per cent. tax on unearned increment. It must be a tax, so far as the right hon. Gentleman is concerned, of 100 per cent., not only on site values, but on agricultural land itself.
In that case there would be no wages.
The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly right in saying that there would be no wages. The mass of the community would simply withdraw from the wealth created what they had earned.
was understood to indicate dissent.
I do not labour under misapprehension at all. I mean by the community the whole world. The right hon. Gentleman's position is such an extreme form of Communism—views which are giving Socialists so much trouble—that Socialist views absolutely pale before the extreme economics preached by the Leader of the Opposition. The practical application of his remarks is this. If there is an unearned increment to such an enormous extent as he says—I do not agree with him, I still believe in individual enterprise and initiative, which he has thrown callously overboard—if there is this unearned increment created by the community, there is also earned increment created by the individual, and that must be held sacred. It is not good enough to say that you should not tax land because you are not taxing anything else. Probably the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a note of the logical outcome of the lead given to him by the right hon. Gentleman. We are beginning with land We never concealed that, and the Leader of the Opposition has encouraged us to conceal it less than we ever did before, because he is not merely a follower of ours—he is a leader of ours. Consequently, so far as the right hon. Gentleman's speech was a contribution to the logical solution of the problem before the Committee, he did not merely say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "Bless you, go on with these Land Taxes," but he said, "My quarrel with you is that they are only land clauses, and not wages clauses, profit clauses, and clauses applying to all other forms of wealth and all other forms of increment."
The hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Harold Cox) has again placed his economic opinions before the Committee. He has made a new proposition with regard to taxation that I never came across before. He says that the great objection to this tax is that it does not fall upon the dead. Those who are not born will never pay it, and those who are to come will probably never pay it at all. That is very interesting, but I do not propose to discuss it. I only propose to make a note of it. According to the hon. Member for Preston, a tax is no good at all unless it falls on the dead as well as the living. The hon. Member has a stretch of arm which I do not pretend to have, and which no Chancellor of the Exchequer will ever have. So far as his second proposition is concerned, it is absolutely inaccurate. He says it will not fall on those who are to come. I say it will. If you draw the line in 1909 and then treated all the increment up to 100 per cent, as State property, the hon. Gentleman's proposition would be perfectly sound, because there you would reach bottom rock, and he would be right in saying that the future would never pay it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer only proposes to take 20 per cent. of the increment, so that if it goes on the future 20 per cent. increases only will be deducted, and 80 per cent. will remain in the pockets of those who hold the property. The future will pay, because the whole of the unearned increments will continue to pay. I have laid down certain general propositions which are often going to lead me into the Lobby in support of the proposed Land Taxes. I thought it advisable to do so, as the Labour party do not mean to take up much of the time of the Committee while these Amendments are being discussed. It is interesting to listen to others, but I thought it better to state the general principles on which my hon. Friends and myself will vote during the course of the present Bill.
The Committee always listen with interest to the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald), and they have listened with special interest this afternoon. It was interesting to hear the hon. Member claim the Leader of the Opposition as a leader of his party. I think there is about as much weight in that leadership as in the leadership recently given to me of a party with which I am supposed to be associated at present. I am going to vote for the Amendment, although I shall do so for reasons rather different from those given by hon. Gentlemen on the Benches opposite. I agree with the hon. Member for Leicester in the main proposition he laid down, which was that, wherever there was unearned increment in the land, the State should take 20 per cent. I agree that a tax must be imposed on unearned increment which has matured, and is therefore realisable, but I cannot understand how it can be shown that that unearned increment is to be realised in the differentiation the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggests between one kind of agricultural property and another. The right hon. Gentleman tells us that agricultural property which receives its ordinary agricultural rent is to be immune from this tax, but that where land, owing to some subtle influences due to the community in a town, represents something over and above the agricultural value, it should have imposed on it an increment duty of 20 per cent. on the capital value. I cannot see that land can be put to any other purpose than that of producing from the soil or having houses placed upon it. When a lease is granted for a house to be erected on land then there will undoubtedly be a very material increment of rent. That is the moment when with perfect justice an Increment Duty could be charged, the differentiation being shown by the increased rent due to a house being placed on it as compared with the rent which the owner formerly received for the site as agricultural land. But how valuers are to differentiate between land which still remains agricultural I cannot see, and nothing has been suggested to indicate to the House how that distinction is to be made.
I myself do not believe that with any justice an Increment Tax can be put on any form of agricultural land, or any form of house under an ordinary lease. The only time when you can do it is when land is converted from agricultural purposes to building purposes. Then, and then only, in my judgment, you can with justice impose an Increment Tax. What will the effect of this proposal be? As my hon. Friend the Member for the Leith Burghs has pointed out it will absolutely be, whatever protection or reservation you may put in the Bill, that agricultural land is bound to be taxed. It seems to me that it will affect that very class of agricultural land which we desire in these days to protect and promote as much as possible. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said just now that owners were developing small holdings in the country and asking higher rents. With the view of diminishing their ardour in that direction he says, "I will put a tax on." What will be the effect of a tax being placed on a too-highly rented small holding? Is it likely that the small holding will be made successful by that means? It seems to me that it will have precisely the contrary effect. The only way in which you can control the demand for inordinate rentals on the part of owners in developing small holdings is by putting the control in the hands of the county councils and the Commissioners of the Board of Agriculture. They can control and limit rent by purchasing on proper lines either by agreement or, when agreement is not possible, by compulsion, at a valuation of the market price. It will be on that line that ultimately small holdings will have to be provided. An Increment Duty of 20 per cent. on the capital value on the owner of a small holding by way of inducing him to reduce his rent to the tenant seems to me the most extraordinary way of getting a cheaper class of small holdings in this country that was ever devised by any responsible Minister. The Bill as it stands will not only detrimentally affect small holdings, but undoubtedly cause hardship to many owners of property, and many of those following the industry of agriculture who have suffered in the last 30 years through acute agricultural depression. There is, of course, the provision in the Bill with reference to land purchased during the last 20 years, but the real acute stage of agricultural depression in this country was more than 20 years ago, and from that point of view undoubtedly the period of years should be extended unless very great hardship is to be placed on many agriculturists in the country. Agriculture is just recovering; it is gradually moving upwards. Every encouragement should be given to the industry, and nothing in the shape of an obstacle should be placed in its way. Therefore, I sincerely trust before we come to the conclusion of these discussions with regard to Increment Tax that all classes of agricultural property will be excluded from the tax. Where that class of property is near to or distant from a town so long as it is not building property, it is bound to be agricultural. I know cases of property in some remote districts which are most valuable in character, the owner of which is receiving enormous rents. There are farms down in Evesham on which large sums of money have been spent. One owner is receiving a rent of £7 to £9 an acre. Under this proposal that land would be exempted, while land on the confines of a town which probably, from the agricultural point of view, is only earning 30s. or £2 an acre, and will continue only to earn that amount for an indefinite number of years, but the capital value of which may be £200 or £300, that very land will have to bear quite an undue and unnecessary burden upon it in the shape of this Increment Duty. The more I read this proposal the more I feel bound to tell my friends here who are interested in the agricultural industry that they will find it dangerous and injurious. In the interests of agriculture I sincerely hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will reconsider the decision he has given, and will give us some undertaking that whether in the words of this Amendment or in some other way we shall have some definite undertaking that agriculture will be excluded. If he does not give us that undertaking I hope that there will be many Gentlemen on this side who, I know, share my views, found to express their views, and show how strong the opinion is on this side of the House that in no sense should the industry of agriculture have this tax imposed upon it.
I have listened with satisfaction to the speech which we have just heard from an hon. Member possessing a full knowledge of the subject of which he spoke. I quite agree that those who are interested in agriculture must have listened with profound regret to the conclusions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to include this Increment Tax on agricultural land. The obvious injustice of a tax of that kind must be very apparent to anybody who has any knowledge at all of the decline in value of agricultural land in recent years. By way of giving one small example, I can tell the House of a place which I know personally—a farm which, in 1876, in the good times of agriculture, was bought by the then tenant for the sum of £15,000. That farm was sold about four years ago for the sum of £5,000, that being the market value of the farm at that time. Suppose that man who bought that farm in 1876 for £15,000 had kept it until the value—which, presumably, is now about £5,000—had gone up, say, in 10 years to £7,000 or £10,000. It would have been a manifest injustice to make that man pay a tax on the increase from £5,000 to £7,000 or £10,000, which would only represent to him some small recoupment of the large sum of money which he himself had dropped in the purchase of that farm. That is an example of the way in which agricultural land has fallen in value during the last 30 years, and what an injustice it would have been to impose the Increment Tax on agricultural land of that kind! The right hon. Gentleman tells us that he is not going to impose the tax on what he calls purely agricultural land; but he does mean to impose the tax on certain kinds of land in the neighbourhood of certain mines or towns, which land, nevertheless, is used for agricultural purposes. I cannot see the logic of that argument. If the land is used at the present moment solely for agricultural purposes, and if, owing to an increase in the wealth of the community or owing to a mine, that land increases in value, but still is used for purely agricultural purposes, then you should not put any increased tax on that land. It is manifest, in doing so, you tax the raw material of agriculture, which has by a piece of good fortune in one portion of this country increased slightly in value. It is quite likely that that particular part may be let at £8 an acre, and that 30 years ago the land was probably let for £2 or 45s. an acre. But why? Simply because a mine springs up and is developed, and the rent of a small part of the land goes up again from £1 or £2, should you put an Increment Tax on the increased capital value? Yet that, as far as I can gather, is the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
How much of this land is likely to go up in a larger extent in value for purely agricultural purposes simply owing to the development of towns or the development of the mines? It is obviously a very small amount indeed out of the total agricultural land of this country, and if you put an increased tax upon that small amount of agricultural land you tax a small amount of land which brings in, or may bring in, a very remunerative return to its owner, and instead of allowing that owner, whether he is a large or small owner, to spend that money which he will receive owing to an increased value of that small plot of land on the development of his estate or on other parts which give no return at all at the present moment, you take away that money, or a large portion of it. Can any fair-minded man say that that is a way of increasing the development of agriculture in this country? Obviously not. If the Government really want the owner of land to spend any increase they may get in the rents of the land upon the development of the property it is not a good way to start by telling him he will have to give one-fifth part of that in the service of the State. As everybody knows, agriculture has been in a very depressed condition for many years past, and the landlords, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself admits, have done their best during these bad times to assist the tenants in the development of their estates; and though the general fertility of the soil and the conditions of agriculture in our country have been largely increased by the exertions of the tenants themselves, yet nobody will assert that agriculture in this country at the present moment has risen to such a state of scientific perfection that there is no more room for an owner or a tenant of the soil to spend any increased money on the further development of agriculture. I do feel most strongly that it is a gross injustice upon our greatest industry to single out a portion of land, whether it is near a mine or near a town, as long as it is used for purely agricultural purposes, and to take away from the owner of that part of land a certain sum which otherwise he would have spent on the development of the agriculture of the country.
On the Second Reading Debate the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in trying to impress on the House that in this Budget of his he was conferring a great boon on the owners of land in this country, told us, among other things, that the sum he was going to take away from agriculture in the form of Super-tax, Death Duties, Increment Duties, and Site Value Duties was only £800,000, and he said he was giving us in return about £1,000,000. I forget the precise sum, but it appeared that it largely exceeded the sum which he was extracting from the owners of the soil in this country. He made up the calculation by saying that the rates have been largely relieved in agricultural districts by the munificent action of the Old Age Pensions Act. That is a matter which might be argued at considerable length. Then he said also he would give a very large sum—£250,000—for the Development Grant, and he also said while we are giving the sum of £600,000 from the proceeds of the Motor Car Licence Duties and the tax on petrol, and that that sum is actually equivalent to the amount of 4d. in the £ on the present Highway Kate throughout the country. That is a most extraordinary statement. I have been wondering for many days past how the Chancellor of the Exchequer could possibly arrive at that estimate. The total yield of increased Licence Duties on Motors and the Petrol Tax was estimated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be £750,000. From that a sum of £150,000 is to be deducted to make up to the local authorities for the sum which they are losing upon the collection of the present Licence Duties, and the £600,000 which remains the Chancellor of the Exchequer says is equivalent to 4d. in the £ of the rates now levied on agricultural land. What are the facts? From the returns issued by various Government authorities last year it will be found that the amount raised by local highway authorities for local purposes in England, Scotland and Ireland amounted last year to £15,388,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says that £600,000 is equivalent to 4d. in the £. That means to say that £150,000 is the equivalent of 1d. in the £1 Highway Rates. If £150,000 represents a 1d. in the £1, the highway rates, therefore, £15,339,000, represents a sum of 8s. 6¼d. for rates now levied for highway purposes. That is manifestly absurd to anybody who knows what the rates for highway purposes are. I think I am not far out when I say that the average rate is something much nearer 1s. 6d. or 1s. 8d., or something like that. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has managed to make a gross error in calculating this relief to agricultural land. First of all as to this £600,000, is it really a sum which is to be spent on the upkeep of the highways, or is it the owner of the motor cars who are to benefit? Will the increased duty on motor cars be devoted to the improvement of highways, such as cutting off corners in main roads, or will it be spent on the upkeep of the existing highways? There is a total difference between the two propositions. The £600,000 is either going to be spent on improvements of our highways, or else it is to be given to the local authorities in lieu of sums now spent by them on the present upkeep of highways throughout the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot have it both ways. I am very much inclined to think that, as usual, the ratepayers of the country districts are not the people who will get the benefit of the new taxation, and that it will be only the owners of motor cars who will have the advantage. That, to my mind, proves that the benefit which agriculture is going to get out of this Budget is remarkably small, and that it practically dwindles down to nothing except the sum of £250,000 to be devoted to grants. I think that a very great injustice will be inflicted upon agriculture throughout this country if the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not, before the second clause is reached, accept an Amendment of some sort which prevents the Increment Duty being raised on agricultural land so long as that land is used for agricultural purposes alone.
I rise to remind the House of what is the real point at issue. The simple question is this, whether the Increment Tax on land is to be so imposed that agricultural land is to be excluded? I heartily hope that the Government will stick to their proposals in the Bill. There is absolutely no distinction of an economic or any other character to be drawn between what is called agricultural land and other descriptions of land. I have heard a number of speeches from the opposite Benches and from critics of this Bill, and not one of the speakers has ventured to give a definition of what is meant by agricultural land. I took the last speaker to mean, when he spoke about agricultural land, that it was land which was, in fact, used for agricultural purposes. Therefore, even accommodation land in the neighbourhood of towns, which is being held back from building until the value has got still higher, is agricultural land within the meaning of the proposition.
So long as it is used for the purposes of agriculture.
I quite agree. That is just an instance of what hon. Members consider agricultural land; it is one of the very cases with which we have to deal. In fact, the value of land is increased by the needs of the community and the increase in the number of people who want it. I maintain that is the proper standard of taxation. I do not see what distinction can be drawn between bonâ fide agricultural land and other land. The distinction is very difficult to draw. In the case where a house is built it is comparatively easy to make a distinction between the land and the house, but in the case of agricultural land you may have drainage work, levelling work, and reclamation work and other improvements which merge more or less in the soil, and which are physically more difficult to distinguish. Therefore, we should be particularly definite in any proposal for an increment tax on land where improvements of that sort are concerned, and it seems to me that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the clause has dealt delicately and most carefully with that point. In regard to these various works of permanent improvement, I am sure the Chan- cellor of the Exchequer would be very willing to hear any further suggestion to amplify the means of dealing more effectively with any improvement which may not be covered by the terms of the clause. I hope at the same time that the right hon. Gentleman will stand by this tax in its application to what is called agricultural land, as well as to other land. There are certain reasons why it should apply particularly to agricultural land. Joy hypothesis this increment is not due to the improvements which have been made or to the expenditure on those improvements. Assume that hon. Gentlemen opposite were to get into power and were to signalise their taking office by the introduction of a tax on corn and fruit. The result, of course, would be to send up rents. If you impose duties on food and send up the rents and the market value of agricultural land, I maintain that a certain proportion at all events of the increment ought to go into the pockets of the community who are paying the taxes out of which the rents come. Supposing that the local authorities developed road communications so as to make agricultural land more accessible to markets than, before, and that the public expenditure was promptly followed by a rise in the value of agricultural land, there again I maintain that the community ought to get some share of the increment, which is a direct result of the public expenditure. For these reasons I feel that it is most important we should make no exceptions whatever to the general principle that if there is to be an Increment Tax on the value of the land, then the community should share in the objects of the proposed tax. I listened with considerable interest to a part of what the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) said with reference to his reasons for supporting the Amendment. He said: "Here is a principle I do not like; this Amendment will make a breach in it, therefore I support the Amendment." I have no doubt that the bigger the breach the more heartily the hon. Baronet would support the Amendment; and if the breach could be widened so as to destroy the principle altogether, I presume he would vote for the Amendment still more heartily. I go on the very opposite line, and I support the principle. I believe it should be applied to all the cases which have yet been mentioned, and I, for one, would not like to see any breach made at all in the principle.
The hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald), in his brilliant speech, made two very interesting statements: one was that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer commanded him to vote for this Amendment he would do so. It was a very interesting announcement to Members which sit on this side of the House to know that the Labour party are at the beck and call of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The second point, which was also of very great interest, was that the hon. Member openly stated in this House that the proposed taxation, this mulcting of land-owners, was only the beginning of taxation to be imposed on other forms of property. I hope that supporters of His Majesty's Government will bear this in mind when they begin to vote for this tax, which is to cause very serious injustice to the land-owners of this country. With regard to the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Dundas White), he said that when the communities spend money in developing roads it would add to the value of the property of land-owners.
What I said was that if the action of the local authorities did lead to an increment in the value of neighbouring land, then it should contribute under these proposals.
Although there may possibly be an increment in value to the owners of land in urban districts, yet at the same time the district increases in value, and as the district increases so do the local rates increase to a very great extent. I happen to have rather an interesting paper in my hand regarding a district which I know very well, and which is being developed. In the year 1893 the rates in that district were 6s. 3d. in the £. and from 1906 to 1909 those rates have been up to 8s. 6d. in the £, which is a very considerable increment the wrong way about, and I would beg hon. Members to remember that. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech made certain references to the increment value which accrued when a colliery was opened in a district, and then he touched on the increment value in the case of land in the neighbourhood of towns. I happen personally to know something about colliery districts, and I can assure hon. Members opposite that the fact of a colliery being opened in any locality does not actually mean that the value of agricultural land becomes increased. In some ways the colliery injures the land. For instance, the smoke injures the trees. It is only of value when the colliery has ceased to exist as a colliery, and when a number of pit-heaps are left on large spaces of land, which it is quite possible, though difficult, to deal with, as the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyne, who comes from the Black Country, knows. You can plant those pit-heaps, but it takes a great deal of trouble to do anything with them. You have to fetch a little soil from a distance, and the trees which are planted upon them never become of any very great size or value. When a colliery is opened in a district in which there is agricultural land the miners will go backwards and forwards to their work over the fields where there are no footpaths. You cannot restrain them from doing so. I do not wonder at them doing so, as they are probably very tired, and they want to get home the quickest way they possibly can. I do not think that the sinking of a colliery in a district produces any increment value to agricultural land, as was suggested by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech to-day. Large farms in the neighbourhood of a colliery do not at once jump from a rent of 25s. per acre to £5, or anything of the sort. The rent remains exactly the same, and I shall be only too glad from my own personal experience to give any hon. Member opposite who doubts this chapter and verse as to the accuracy of what I have just stated. There may be more applications for farms if farms are difficult to let, but my own experience is that people who live in the neighbourhood of collieries do not increase the rent of those farms. At all events, that is the case in my part of the world connected with agricultural districts.
I want to make an appeal to His Majesty's Government as regards land in the neighbourhood of towns, because, if you will put an Increment Tax on land in the neighbourhood of towns, as you propose in this Bill, and as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he wished to do, you would be doing a great hardship to a great many people. If by this scheme, in small towns in England which are developing, three or four Commissioners are to come down and say that this or that land should be taxed, you will be making it more difficult for the land-owners to lease land at reasonable rates to small holders, allotment holders, accommodation land, and so on. In my opinion, the great flaw in this Bill is that you do not have payment by results, but you have it on a supposititious, hypothetical, and very often fictitious value. In the neighbourhood in which I live, adjoining a town just developing, which might quite reasonably come in for extra taxation, and very considerable taxation, under this Bill, you put land-owners, not only large, but small, in this great difficulty, that if the land is taxed to a very great extent how on earth are they to let the land, either for small holdings, allotments, or market garden or accommodation land, which is necessary even in the neighbourhoods of towns at a reasonable rent. It is absurd to say that land in the neighbourhood of towns fetches £5 per acre, because it does not. There may be a little accommodation land in the neighbourhood of towns which fetches up to £5, but, as a rule, at all events in the country towns which are developing, you will find that land—and I am speaking from my own experience—is let at much less sums than that. In my own neighbourhood land is let at something like 25s. per acre. I daresay it is the fault of the land-owners, because if they thought only of their own pockets as soon as the neighbourhood developed they might give notice to those people who were occupying small holdings or occupying land, or occupying allotments, or occupying gardens, and say that they could get a higher rent. The same argument might be used as regards old-fashioned cottages and large gardens, of which there are many in developing countries. Although we have heard something to-night from the hon. Member for Leicester about the great injustice of landlords in general, I venture to say that the landlords as a class throughout this country are very chary in giving notice to tenants and in raising rent of tenants who hold under them. I take it that His Majesty's Government, although it may think differently to what we do on this subject, at all events wants to be fair and just. If so, I ask them to consider this Question, and before the Bill passes into law to find out if the land in the neighbourhood of country towns is let for those very large sums of money which the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated this afternoon.
I can assure them, if they put this heavy tax on increment and the other taxes in this Bill on land simply because it is in the neighbourhood of towns, and if commissioners decide that land is building land when possibly it is not ripe for building, they will be doing very great injustice to a number of people who at the present time are small holders and allotment holders. I think I am correct in saying that an intimation has been sent from the Board of Agriculture to the various county councils, stating that it is the intention to arrange for small holdings and allotments and accommodation to people who live in the neighbourhood of towns. I know in my own county that question was asked, and we were told that that was one of the objects of the Bill. How are you to do that and give those people land at reasonable rates if you put on the taxes which are proposed under this Bill? Therefore I shall with all cordiality support the Amendment of my hon. Friend.
There are various aspects of the questions raised by the Amendment which some of us who have some acquaintance with agriculture will be glad to express our opinion upon. As to any comment on the very interesting, speech we have just heard I should like to say at once I know the information and knowledge comes from one whose interest in agriculture is very far from being limited by his own interest, but his arguments are really far more relevant to the taxes on the development of land than to the taxes ort increment.
I quite agree with my hon. Friend; but I do not think he has been in the House the whole afternoon. If he had been, he would have known that the speeches since the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke have dealt not only with this tax, but also with the Development Tax.
I quite agree, but if I address myself purely to the question of increment I hope I shall not be thought discourteous in not referring in greater detail to the speech of the hon. Member. The Increment Tax falls only upon the increased value, and the exercise of the discretion of land-owners as to the way in which they will let their land is more relevant to a subsequent occasion, when I am certain the remarks of my hon. Friend will be felt by the Committee generally to have real weight. With regard to the Amendment before the Committee, which seeks to exclude agricultural land from the Increment Tax, to those of us who are interested in agriculture and are also members of local authorities having to deal with questions of local taxation, there is in such an Amendment a certain amount of real attractiveness. But we have also to consider what its effect would be. This Debate will always be memorable above everything else for the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that half the proceeds of these land taxes is to go to the local authorities. That is not only a great concession to those of us who have been asking for it on every occasion, but it is a great improvement in the character of the Budget itself, and it entirely alters the point of view from which a number of Members will regard many of its details. The taxes may not only be more easily defended, but they are of far greater value if they deal with the ever-pressing problem of local charges than if they are swept Into the all-embracing net of the Exchequer, to be used in ways which may be good or otherwise. Therefore I desire at once to thank my right hon. Friend most heartily for his statement.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us that he is not seeking to put this Increment Tax upon the industry of agriculture. I agree; but I think that the Bill as drawn does not make it sufficiently clear, and that at some stage in our Debates it will be necessary to supplement the language of the Bill by words which will make it perfectly clear that the Increment Tax is not to be levied where value has risen owing to agricultural operations and to matters entirely incidental to the pursuit of agriculture. Those of us who agree with the object of the Government in seeking to place this tax on the impregnable foundation of charging the duty on that increase in land value which comes not from the exercise of the trade of agriculture, but from, communal action in many ways, entirely accept the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that that is what he is aiming at, and not at putting the Increment Tax on land which has increased in value solely because of the operations of what I may term the agricultural trade. But I for one do not think that that object is really secured by the present phraseology of the Bill, because, as it stands, it appears to me only to exempt from this tax the increase of value of agricultural land so far as it results from some special expenditure. What many of us are anxious about is that agriculturists, whether they be land-owners or tenant farmers, or labourers, should share in the benefit which comes from the turn of the market, that they should have their full share of the increased prosperity of the agricultural interest, and that they should not be taxed on any increased value of land resulting from the rise in agricultural prices, which is owing to economical reasons extending far beyond these Islands. That, I say, is not clear in the Bill as it stands, and therefore, those of us who are anxious that it should be secured, approach such an Amendment as that before the Committee with a certain amount of superficial sympathy, at any rate. But we are put on our guard by the speeches we have heard in support of the Amendment. None are more enthusiastic in its favour than the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), who loves this Amendment, not because it may help the agriculturist, but because it may injure the Bill. We all know how much stronger in some minds is the passion of hate than the passion of philanthropy; and one can well understand that this Amendment recommends itself to a number of Members, not because of its intrinsic value, but because it may afford additional embarrassment to the Government. The hon. Baronet opposite must think Members on this side of the House are curious people, if even that most individualist amongst us, the Member for Preston (Mr. Harold Cox), is to be lured into his den by such considerations.
But there is another objection entirely apart from the motives which lie behind the Amendment, and that is that if you exclude all agricultural land you are not only excluding land which ought to be agricultural, but also land which is agricultural at the present moment, but ought to be nothing of the kind. There is land in the immediate neighbourhood of growing towns—and those of us who represent North of England constituencies know the extent to which this is the case, which is no doubt at the present time used for agricultural purposes, and would, according to the ordinary method of interpretation in courts of law, be excluded as agricultural land, although everybody knows that its present value, and still more its growing value, has nothing whatever to do with its agricultural use. Its value is due entirely to the growth of the community in juxtaposition to which it is placed. The land for every reason—financial, economical, and social—is land which ought to pay a very considerable proportion of its increased value to the community, which is almost the exclusive author of that increased value. And, therefore, those who vote for the Amendment now before the Committee, would, if that Amendment were carried, have secured the lamentable result of very considerable areas of land in the country, whose agricultural use at the present moment is a very undesirable accident, would be excluded from the purview of the Bill. For that reason, I for one am entirely unable to support the Amendment as it stands. I am anxious that the Bill as now drawn should be modified to have it made perfectly clear that there is no intention of taxing that increment on bonâ fide agricultural land which arises from any of the processes or prices connected with the pursuit of agriculture. I, for my part, should have liked to see the Amendment run in a very different fashion. If it had been modified: "that this tax should apply to all land other than land the increment value of which is attributable to its use or character as agricultural land." That would have made it clear that no Increment Tax was to be put upon land whose value is increased either because more agricultural work was put upon it or because agricultural prices had risen. During the last 30 or 35 years there has been a depression of agricultural values entirely apart from anything in the power of this House, or within the result of social action in this country to affect; and, of course, it would be unfair if those interested in land were to be taxed when land has, from temporary reasons, fallen, and that their great industry should not share in the rising tide as it suffered when the tide was receding. That makes me, for one, most anxious that there should be modifications in this Bill, making it clear that the increment value does not attach to that, but it by no means leads me to support the Amendment before the Committee, or to do anything in any way to support the suggestions that you have only to use land for agricultural purposes, whether it be adapted for it or not, to escape from this that I venture to call a righteous, a sound, and an economic tax. Therefore, I desire, before I sit down, to summarise the position which I venture to take, and which I respectfully commend to the House. I shall certainly not vote for the Amendment before us. I hope that Members, well knowing both aspects of the problem which presents itself in crowded districts in the North of England, and the different aspects of the problem in other parts of the country, will be able with a perfectly clear conscience to vote against this Amendment; and I hope that the Government will, as already promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, not only consider, but that they will welcome any Amendment at a later stage which makes it perfectly clear that increment is not to be made on the increased worth of real agricultural land, due either to additional work done upon it or due to what I venture to call the turn of the market. I find it to be consistent, and I hope many others will find it to be consistent, to couple with: their attitude on this matter the most scrupulous care and the most untiring watchfulness, so that the actual trade or industry of agriculture shall not be hampered by the undue imposition of this tax, and that the industry, like all others, shall have its fair opportunity of getting the benefit of the good times as well as bearing the evil of the bad times.
Last night I gave one or two concrete cases from my own experience with reference to the Amendment then before the House. I propose to follow that course to-night with reference to this Amendment. In the days of Queen Elizabeth there was a very celebrated man, Sir Thomas Gresham. He had two daughters, the eldest of whom married a banker, and the youngest of whom married a man whose estate embraced a certain amount of property in the neighbourhood of Brentford, which was then quite in the country. Three centuries have passed since then. The land is now approaching building value. Some six or eight months ago the District Railway Company required some of this land for sidings, and arbitration took place with regard to the value of the land. My client asked £1,500 an acre for it, and the company offered about £800 or £900. The result of the arbitration was that the jury awarded my client £10,000 for ten acres of the land. I think we can reckon that the whole estate is worth about that sum, namely, about £1,000 an acre. Down in the suburbs near Ealing land is actually approaching this state. At present it is agricultural land. I want to put the Committee into possession of the figures which I have worked about this land, and how it will be affected by this Budget. I find the land is let on an average at about £4 per acre. Up till quite recently there was what was called a rent annual charge on it of £1 10s. per acre. Tithe was 6s. per acre. Repairs worked out on an average at £2 per acre, and if I am correct in my estimate, under this Budget the tax will be£2 1s. 8d. per acre. Adding up these sums the total will be found to be £3 19s. 8d. Therefore, the tenant for life will receive per acre the magnificent sum of 4d. That is the exact position which will be brought about by this Budget. You may say, immediately—the Chancellor of the Exchequer may say—"Oh, but you are so near to being a building estate; that is not a fair case to take." All I can say to that is that we have done our utmost to develop that land as a building estate, and we should be delighted to be put into communication with builders. Only one builder, I think, has taken up a lease on the estate, and I find it very difficult indeed to persuade other builders to come along. The ground rents are extremely low. The law charges, I need hardly say, are extremely moderate, as are also the surveyor's charges. Any builder may know to a penny what his lease will cost. I think myself, and the Committee if they "aw the estate would say, I think, that it was a highly desirable one. Yet the property does not go, and we are unable to get builders to come along and turn that property into a building estate. An hon. Member below the Gangway says it is overdone. There is too much building going on, and, therefore, this idea of turning building land into building estates or the idea that the majority of the people are very anxious to get hold of the land for these purposes is an entire fallacy on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think the landlords, as a rule, are only too anxious and willing to develop their property in this country. We had laid down roads, made drains, and the local authority was anxious to help us, yet we were not able to develop our building estate, and the present result is that from this agricultural land, let to farmers and other persons, let for the purpose of football and cricket fields and tennis grounds, and so on, that the tenant for life will receive the magnificent sum of 4d. per acre per annum on his estate.
I will not follow the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) in his praiseworthy efforts to get rid of his estate, because my feeling about this Increment Tax is that it is nothing more than would arise owing to the inertia of the landlord. The inert landlord is like the man with the ten talents. All this Bill intends to do is to tax not the man who made five talents into five talents more, but the man who, having received security for his property from the State, buries his treasures in the soil, and fails to make good use of it. All that the Chancellor of the Exchequer intends to do is to take 20 per cent., and I think that is a fair description of the Increment Tax. If agricultural land is to be excluded altogether from this taxation, what would hon. Members, particularly those on the Opposition side above the Gangway, think of revenue which is raised in India. I heard a description of agricultural values and increments in different parts of the country, but I heard no description of what occurs in India. We have had a sample of what happened in the days of Queen Elizabeth. Now let me tell hon. Members what occurred in Bengal in 1750 under the settlement of Lord Cornwallis. At that time agricultural land and the revenue of agricultural land fell to the Ryots in Bengal. Then there was the permanent settlement of the land revenue for the State, and the amount at which it was ascrtained was not 20 per cent, but nine-tenths of the income of the rental value of this land, and nine-tenths was declared to be the Government's share. At the present time it has been found out to be gradually growing in value, so that the Government's share of nine-tenths of the rental fixed in those days is only now about one-tenth of the present value of the land. That is a specimen of the increment value. Now, how does the Government of India to-day deal with this question when they come to the land settlement in the central provinces in Madras, Bombay, and the Punjab. They settle it on the basis that the share of the Government of the land should be ascertained every 15 or 20 years, so that they may get the increased value arising entirely from what we may call the natural increment, which in itself arises not from the operation of any particular landlord, but from the general prosperity of the community.
Is not the question of irrigation mixed up with that, and is it not carried out by the Government?
I do not want to discuss that large question at present raised by the hon. Member for Chelmsford. I know of a large estate which was given to the present owners for their services in the Indian Mutiny. The rental was fixed on such a basis that out of the landlord's share—and he provided irrigation and roads and many other things, he found it answered his purpose to do all that—he paid the Government one-half of the rental value of the land as his share of the land taxes. That is the means of raising revenue by taxing the land in India, while here we are only just beginning to think of our necessities, and it is only now that Increment Tax is going to be put upon agricultural land, which tax is but a mere trifle and bagatelle compared to what is done in India. I should like to appeal to the hon. Member for Chelmsford to withdraw from this subject, and I will tell him why. No one has greater respect than I have for Gentlemen who sit on the opposite side of the Gangway. They are the representatives of those who won the battles of Inkerman and Balaclava, and we know they are patriotic beyond all belief.
That is hardly relevant to the Amendment.
I was explaining why I was appealing to hon. Members opposite to withdraw the Amendment, and I think in some sort of a way that was germane to the subject. If you tell me I must not refer to the patriotism or public spirit, or that I must not say they have any relation to the services they render their country, or that I must not say that they are almost all pure gold and that the only alloy which they have is when they meddle with their own interests, I will of course desist. How can they, as representatives of another House, which is one of the most admirable things in this great Constitution, one of the most glorious institutions that ever adorned this country, resist this tax? I appeal to them in the name of that House, of which they are the understudies, how can they wish to escape from their share of the public taxes? How can they wish to escape from the small amount which is so absolutely necessary to the revenue of the country? I am sure they do not wish to do so, and I appeal to them to take their share as other parts of the country are willing to do without murmur or complaint.
When this Increment Tax was first put into the Budget it was said it would only apply to urban and suburban building land. The reason given for imposing this tax was that men were trifling with agriculture, and not even using their land at all, but simply sitting tight. It is now quite evident that this duty is not going to apply to building land only, because we have now had it for the first time from the mouth of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it is going to apply to a really bonâ fide industry. I wish to point out how this tax will affect those who happen to be engaged in the agricultural industry in my Constituency. The land on each side of the river is being largely used for dairy farms, and it is impossible to use that land for building purposes. I am sure there will be some dismay amongst those who are my supporters, and supporters of the Government as well in my Constituency, when they wake up to-morrow morning and find they are going to be taxed because they happen to be engaged in a perfectly legitimate industry supplying the needs of a growing community. All this is being done at a time when their neighbours engaged in other industries are not going to be taxed at all in this way. I should like to hear some defence of that position. The only answer we have received is the question, Are you in favour of taxing the unearned increment of everybody? I certainly am not, but there must be somebody to stand up against injustice, and that this tax is an injustice the Government cannot possibly deny. What applies to the dairy farmers in my Constituency will also apply to that much abused person the market gardener. We are told that the market gardener must not stand in the way of a great reform. If the Commissioner under this Bill chooses to say that the land of a market gardener has increased in value he will be liable to this tax. We have had a very interesting speech from the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald), who said he welcomed this duty because he looked upon it as a beginning, and no doubt that is also the idea of the Government. It is important to realise that if agricultural land is going to be hit to-day, we do not know which interest will be hit to-morrow. At the present time agricultural land is being, so to speak, sat upon by those who have no interest in it, and I can imagine a time coming when perhaps some hon. Member below the Gangway will get up and say that the hon. Member for Cheshire is making a larger income than he ought to be making, and therefore that he should be taxed on his unearned increment. The same will also apply to the hon. Member for Chester. Certainly if those hon. Members come forward in the future and complain of the way they are being treated I shall have great pleasure in reminding them of the way in which they are treating the agricultural community to-day.
Almost every hon. Member who has spoken in this Debate has alluded to the burden this Increment Tax will be upon agriculture. I do not think that this tax is a burden in any way at all upon agriculture or upon the agriculturist. The hon. Member for South-East Durham (Mr. Lambton) was the only speaker who quite clearly stated that this tax would be paid not by the agriculturist, but by the land-owner. I think it is important that we should distinguish between the agriculturist and the landowner. There are two people interested in this matter—first of all, the man who farms the land, and who gets all he can out of it; and, secondly, there is he man who farms the farmer, and gets all he can cut of him. The person who will pay this tax is the man who farms the farmer, and gets all he can out of the farmer in the shape of rent. This tax cannot affect the man who is paying the rent, and I think it is a matter of vital importance to make the people in the country understand that all this protestation from the other side of the House about the interest of agriculture and the agriculturist is not by any means really applicable to agriculture, but is sorely applicable to the country landlord.
This Amendment is directed towards exempting agricultural land from the Increment Tax. I cannot help thinking that the Amendment has been drawn rather badly from the Opposition point of view, because, as drawn, it will nullify the whole effect of the Increment Tax altogether, because all land which is not built upon will be agricultural land Therefore all land which is not built upon would thereby immediately be exempted from the effect of this tax, and only as long as it is not built upon. That would be a distinct in document to prevent a man building upon his land, because he would continue to escape taxation. I think it is absolutely unjust that you should make any distinction between the unearned increment of land in the towns and in the counties, because in both cases the building value of the land is an exact measure of the benefit conferred upon that land and that landlord by the community as a whole. In the case of agricultural land proximity to markets very often regulates prices. In all cases it is a question of the community, and nothing else. My hon. Friend the Member for Preston said that all unearned increment should be taxed. There is a distinction between the two. Take the case of a hard-headed man who believes that a little village will grow into a great town. He believes that, say, in 10 years it will be an important manufacturing centre. In that time will the wages of the common labourer be any higher? No. His wages will not be any higher, and the chances are that the rents and the value of the lands will be higher. That example is simply an epitome of our history during the last hundred years. The capacity to increased wealth will have been increased. We have better and better government. I heard the other day that whenever a Liberal Government was in power agricultural land rose in value. It has risen during the last three years on account of our good government. The increase in land value means an increased rent taken by the landlord from the people. I think that the increment of the land, whether urban, suburban or agricultural, is created by the community and forms a fit subject for taxation. I am particularly of opinion that agricultural land should not be exempted for other reasons. I think that the possibility of Tariff Reform and Protection being adopted depends very largely upon whether the landlords can get their rents raised or not. If we take one-fifth there will be less inducement for the landlords to tax the people's food. I beg the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to make any, alteration in the Bill which will result in the increase of agricultural value escaping its fair share of the burdens of the country.
The hon. Member who has just spoken appears to think that the value of agricultural land has gone up. It is quite the reverse.
I said during the last three years.
The hon. Member said whenever a Liberal Government was in power. A Liberal Government has unfortunately been in power several times during the last 50 years, and there is no doubt that agricultural land has gone down enormously of late years. We know that it is already very heavily taxed, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to tax it still more. You have already driven the yeoman off the land, and also the labourer, and now you are going to drive away the small land-owner. I cannot see how this Bill is going to help the agricultural labourer. Already workmen in the country tell me the land-owners are now employing fewer hands. This taxation in hitting landlords will hit other classes as well. The Bill is certainly going to do harm, and not good. The hon. Baronet for Northamptonshire agrees with this Amendment, and said that this extra tax on agriculture will do harm. Yet he told us on the second reading that this Bill seemed to him the boldest, most logical, and most decisive application of the principles of Free Trade. I congratulate him on sticking to the inexactitudes for which his party is famous. I should like to point out that the Prime Minister has told us quite plainly that land was heavily taxed. A farmer told him that of all the wheat, meat and fruit grown on his farm he had to pay £15 for every £100 produced, whether in a good or a bad season. The taxation of agricultural land is a taxation on the food of the people. What are you going to do? You are putting a tax on the raw material of the food of the people. You call yourselves Free Traders! Is not that a very extraordinary thing? Of course it is. This taxation upon agricultural land is intended to break up great estates. That no doubt is the policy in view, but, as far as I can see, it will have the reverse effect, because the result will be that nobody in this country will be able to hold land except those who are very rich, and consequently the land is much more likely to become the playground of the rich, as some hon. Members opposite have termed it, than it is at the present time, when it is held by a greater number of people who are trying to make a. living out of it. If you are going to force it into the hands of very rich people it becomes, to a certain extent, a luxury. Of course, the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) agrees with this policy. He said the Chancellor of the Exchequer was quite right. It is the beginning of the Socialist's Budget. I agree that, from the Socialist's point of view, it is quite right, as the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Keir Hardie) wrote some years ago, that the main reason for sticking to Free Trade is that it will get rid of the landlords. That, I admit, is quite right, from the Socialist point of view. But there are hon. Members opposite who are not supposed to be Socialists, although they are bringing forward this policy of extra taxation upon land, and I warn them that it is the beginning of a policy which must do much harm to the country. Those who are not Socialists must admit that the policy is wrong. It is going to hit the little man as well as the big man, and if hon. Members want to get people back to the land, I say the only way is to make the land worth cultivating. The more you tax it the less worth cultivating it will become. You must proceed on opposite lines.
A good deal has been said about rent. Take the case of the Malmesbury Freeholders; about 500 acres of land were given to them by one of our kings for fighting against the Danes. They have held the freehold ever since. Forty years ago they cultivated their own land, and made a living out of it. I have made very careful inquiries, and, 40 years ago, 90 per cent, of the freeholders cultivated their own land, and many got a very good living from it; some of them actually saved money. Now there are not 50 per cent, who cultivate their own land. Some of it has gone out of cultivation; some of the allotments can be had for very little, and some have been let to big farmers around, and, instead of being worth £3 per acre, the freeholders are now glad to get from 12s. to £1 per acre. That shows the nonsense of people when they say that the rent of land in this country has gone up. That being the case, how is it possible you are going to make land pay by putting more taxation upon it? There is no sense in a policy of that character. I suggest that for the benefit of agriculture in general land should not be extra taxed under this Budget. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has admitted that, during late years, land has been very badly hit, and, while in this country there are millions of acres of land still untouched by the plough, surely it would be possible to adopt a better policy than one which, by placing more taxation on the land, will prevent its coming under the plough, and will also have the effect of driving still more farmers and labourers either abroad or into the slums of our great cities. These are indisputable facts. Under your present system all the food that is produced in this country is very heavily taxed, while the surplus products of foreign countries comes in here without paying anything. You are absolutely giving the foreigners a bounty in our own home market, and, in this way, you are murdering our agricultural industry. We import a great deal of foreign rubbish, but I would like to remind the House that history teaches that no nation has ever prospered long which has allowed its agriculture to go to ruin. Unless you can do something better than put extra taxation upon your land it seems to me you are driving the agriculture of this country to ruin. We must get the people back to the land, and that is a matter in which I agree with the Socialists. I do not know whether in conclusion I shall be allowed to say, what I hope to be allowed to say, as to the proper method of getting the people back on the land. I do not think it is the Radical view, but I think that if we had a different system this could be done. If the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, when he goes to the country on the important question before it, will also go to the country on the principle that no agricultural land or farm over 50 acres shall have its rent increased, whilst Tariff Reform was being tried, say, for 10 or 15 years; we should not only save the country, but also sweep the polls.
I am not going into the discussion of the present and past state of agriculture. I have great sympathy with those who have lost money in the past, and I quite recognise that it is the duty of the Government and this House to do all they can to keep the agricultural industry prosperous, or to make it prosperous if they can, but the Amendment before the House strikes me as going a great deal too far. I think under Clause 2 and under Clause 14 there are protections for agricultural land, which Members on that side of the House do not seem to have studied before they have made their speeches. At the same time, there may be some necessity for strengthening those clauses when the time comes, and let me say, in answer to the challenge of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, that we all on this side of the House hate the Budget, that I, who am one who has been hit all round by these taxes, and know something about the subject, am very much in love with this Budget. In fact, I think it is so very great a reform that I intend to support it right through, and to do all I can to try to get this great reform passed. May I remind hon. Members who oppose these proposals so bitterly, and there are a great many of them on that side of the House, that it would be better for them not only to study this Bill when they come into the House, but to read the Bill through at home, and try to study it in the light of their own properties. I have tried to do that myself, and I find it is not half such a bogey as hon. Members make it out to be. The halfpenny tax on undeveloped land is a very small item, and, after all, this Increment Tax, which everybody is complaining about, is on our future profits. A tax on future profits, however, is not a thing to be very unhappy about. If I did make some £400 or £500 an acre profit on my land I should be glad to give 20 per cent. to the Government, but I think all through this Bill the interests of the land-owner are very carefully guarded, and where this 20 per cent. is taken from his profit, it is only where he makes a profit, which is not attributable to his own work in any way. Taking the case of agricultural land, this Amendment would do a great deal of harm in this way. Supposing you have a farm, or agricultural land, in close proximity to London, or any other great town. That has a much greater value than the rental represents. It ought to pay, because the man who is holding that land, is holding it not for the rental, not for his present profit, but he is holding it for a chance of making a profit on it in the future.
I think it is right that there should be some tax put upon a man who holds back land for the sake of having some future profit, when that land is very necessary for the benefit of the place or town where it is near. I have heard of a certain watering place where one man owned nearly all the land round it, but refused to take less than £1,000 or £1,400 an acre. There was a great boom in that watering place. It was all agricultural land in one sense, but it was not very valuable agricultural land, though it was farmed in a sense. I am talking of a place where all the land on one side was held by two people and one part of it by one person who would not sell. This watering place had a boom, but the effect of this one person refusing to sell his land was that the growth of the watering place was checked and it did not grow, therefore not only has the watering place not increased, but the land of that gentleman is not nearly so valuable as it was a few years ago. That was a case in which, if this tax had been put on, there would have been an extra incentive to sell this land, and I suppose the Government does not want the sale of the land to check the extension or prosperity of the place, and it is quite right that all land which is under cultivation as agricultural land should not under such circumstances, be excluded from paying this tax. At the same time, I hare some sympathy with hon. Members who say they want to exclude from the account improvement in agriculture, and I think there is a great deal to be said for that, in spite of what has been said that there is something more than the actual rental value attached to even agricultural land, because in certain cases agricultural land is now let for a value which barely pays the expenses, and in that case people even buy it at the present moment and have bought it recently knowing that they are going to make nothing for a time, but in the hopes that, as agriculture recovers, there will be some increased value because of improvement in agriculture and improved rental. A certain amount has been taken as the value, and that has to be based more or less on the rental. Suppose there has been a slight addition in regard to agricultural improvement and improved rental, it would not be fair, when the whole thing has gone up, that the whole of that prospective value, or a very large proportion of it, should be taken by the Government in a case like that, and I think there is a good case for excluding land when the increment is purely agricultural, but this Amendment goes further than that and will exclude agricultural land ever paying, even when the increment comes from some other source. Therefore, although I have full sympathy with the agriculturists on this point, I hope the Government will strengthen it in some small details in the future clauses. I think it would be quite wrong that in this particular place we should exclude all land simply because it is called agricultural, because its value is not agricultural simply, though it is being used as agricultural land. It not only has possibly some value through being nearer the town, but when the town extends it will become considerably greater in a short time, and ought to pay the increment, which is not an increment on the agricultural improvement, but on its building value.
There is one point I should like to put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer which would clear up some of the questions put to him. He said, where land near a town was used for agricultural purposes he wanted to take something from the value, because it would be benefited by the extension of the town or through being in close proximity to the town. Does that mean was it commonly called "accommodation land"? It is very difficult to distinguish the value of accommodation land from agricultural value, because it is got from agricultural purposes in a way, such as grazing horses and things of that kind. I should like to know whether coming accommodation land is one of the things that the right hon. Gentleman intends to tax under this increment clause. I shall certainly vote for excluding all agricultural land whether near a town or not, and I hope those on this side of the House, who have sympathy with agriculture, will see this point, and not insist upon this Amend- ment, because I think it goes further than anyone on this side of the House would intend to go.
I think my Amendment has had at any rate the advantage of bringing out some very curious divergencies of view in principle, because hitherto the argument in favour of this taxation has been entirely confined to principle, and we have never had any justification from a detailed or business point of view from anyone who has defended the tax. We are always told they will come in on a future occasion when some other point is reached. The Amendment has had a very useful effect in bringing out these divergencies of principle. What are they, and how many are there? I believe the principle of the hon. Member for Leicester is that it is desirable to punish the landlords.
I am perfectly certain that I used no such language and no argument which would justify such language.
The expression which was reported to me as having been used by the hon. Member was that this Bill did not punish the landlords sufficiently. If he did not say that I at once withdraw. The real point is this. Hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway advocate this tax on the clear and definite principle that a proportion of the increment which is not due to the personal exertions of the owner of the property should be taken by the State. I admit that all these taxes could be consistently defended on that principle provided they were accompanied by similar taxes on all other property. The next principle is that which was defended by the protagonist of these particular taxes the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood). His principle is that lead is totally different from all other kinds of property, and that it alone should bear this particular burden of a tax upon the increment which it acquires. Then we get the principle which was embodied in the Bill by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that is that the increment on agricultural land is in some way or other: different from the increment on other kinds of land, and that, for some mysterious reason, the effort which is applied to the cultivation of agricultural land is to be treated differently from the result of the application of effort to using land for building. If a man devotes his money and his time and his efforts to laying out roads and preparing land for someone to live upon that is one form of effort. If he cultivates the land to grow food for people to eat that is another form of effort. One form of effort is to be dealt with and increment is to be charged upon it as if the whole increment were due only to the community. The other form of increment, also the result of effort applied to land, is for some inexplicable reason, not to be treated in that form, but is to be regarded as legitimate and natural. I can understand the principle of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. I can appreciate, though I cannot follow the reasoning of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood). I must thank him for a remarkable statement which he made. He told us that the increase in the value of agricultural land during these last three years was due to a Liberal Government being in office. I never heard the admission made before that the increase in the price of corn was due to a Liberal Government.
I did not make that admission. I said someone told me that whenever a Liberal Government was in power land values went up.
And the hon. Member enlarged on that by stating that land has gone up during the last three years, and that was the assumption which I made. If he had followed his example a little further he would have thought it better to leave that illustration alone. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated, and we accept the statement, that in this Bill he has not desired to tax, and he believes he has so drawn his clause that he is not taxing purely agricultural land. But he has not done that. If he examines the clause he referred to, he will see in perfectly plain language that it places the whole of the tax upon agricultural land exactly as on every other form of property, with the single exception that a special deduction is allowed to agricultural land in respect of that part of the value "attributable to works of a permanent character, executed by or on behalf of any person interested in the land." That is the only additional exemption. [An Hon. MEMBER: "Clause 14."] The hon. Member is confusing two things. He is confusing the valuation under Clause 14, the original valuation on which no tax is to be levied, and the valuation under Clause 2, which is the taxable land value. I do not profess to understand all the details of the proposal after the most careful study I have given to it. I am equally as willing as the hon. Member to pay the tax if it ever falls on me, though I do not think it ever will fall either on the hon. Member or on myself. No business man, when he thoroughly understands the real effect and meaning of the tax, and when he comes to try to draw the distinction for himself from a practical business point of view which is attempted to be drawn by the theoretical professors of economy on the other side of the House, will assent to this proposal. I say the feeling in the country will be such that it will be absolutely impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to carry out this tax in any form. Would any practical man who has any knowledge in this House or out of it give his support to these proposals as regards agricultural land or any other form of land? We have in Clause 2 an attempt made by the right hon. Gentleman to carry his principle into practice and to exempt agricultural land. He has failed to do it. Why? Is it that he or his advisers lack ability? The answer is that the right hon. Gentleman himself, the Government, and their advisers have as great a command of knowledge and ability both for framing a tax and drafting a Bill as is to be found in the country, but they have failed because it is impossible to draw a satisfactory line. It is a matter of degree wherever you attempt to draw the line. We have, first of all, purely agricultural land. That land begins to acquire accommodation value. Then accommodation value begins to merge in building land value, and building land becomes developed land. By what possible machinery are you going to draw a hard-and-fast line through that gradual progression of steps by which land passes from agricultural to developed? It is not as was imagined by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood), when a chalybeate spring is discovered and a village becomes a great city. That is not what happens. I cannot realise or believe that this House of Commons, which has hitherto been regarded as a practical Assembly, can really be discussing from a practical point of view taxes of this description. The right hon. Gentleman desires to be just. How is he going to draw a just line in the matter when he has this gradual and insensible passage from purely agricultural to fully developed building land? On one side of the line one man will say "I am fairly taxed," and another man on the other side of the line, to whom the difference is so infinitesimal that it cannot be traced will consider that he is suffering a gross injustice because there is no definite principle on which the tax will be based.
If this Amendment has served no other purpose, it has served a good purpose in emphasising the absolute divergence of principle on the part Of those who advocate the tax, and the absolute want of principle on the part of the Government in proposing the tax and framing the Bill to try to carry it out. The second point, which goes to the root of the whole matter, is that the effect of this tax, and, in fact, all those taxes, must be to check and bar industry arising out of land all over the country. They ought not to be called Development Taxes; they ought to be called Development Prevention Taxes, because of the process of the Government. A man has a piece of land, and the lowest value, from the financial point of view, to which he can put it is as agricultural land. His object is, naturally, with land as with other kinds of property, to improve its value, and thereby improve its income. There comes a point in the case of agricultural land when the owner has attempted to bring it into another and higher form of use. He has certain inducements and certain difficulties and drawbacks, but there comes a moment when the advantages he foresees by trying to bring it into development in one form or another are sufficient to outweigh the disadvantages, and he will say "I will try to turn this land from agricultural land to another use in order to get more profit out of it." What is proposed is to place the 20 per cent, duty on that particular form of development. It absolutely follows that any man in that position will be anything to the extent of 20, 30 or 40 per cent, worse off. In other words, at the moment when it would be to his advantage to attempt to develop the land he will postpone the development, and it may never come at all. Does the right hon. Gentleman suppose that a man is going to develop small rural industries under this proposal? If a man wishes land for a brickyard, a gravel pit, or a stone quarry, does the right hon. Gentleman suppose that he goes to the owner of the land and says: "I mean to quarry stone, or make bricks; I will pay you a royalty on the output, and I will hire a piece of your land." Not at all. He goes to the owner and says: "I should like to buy a piece of land." He buys a piece of land at agricultural value, and, having done so, he proceeds to develop his brickyard or quarry. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that a man, if he wishes to develop a quarry or a brickyard, will not try to buy the land at agricultural value? He will do it if he can. A practical man going to start any of these industries will first see what it is going to cost him, and the taxes which are proposed introduce a new element, which will have to be taken into consideration. Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that if a man buys two acres of land which happens to have brick clay upon it, and develops an industry as a result of which the value of the land is raised from £30 to £300, in such a case the 20 per cent, will be levied under his own Bill?
The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that, under the Bill, whatever is attributable to his own exertions, whatever money he spends on developing a gravel pit or a brickyard must first be deducted.
That is any money that he spends. I am perfectly well aware of that. I may buy land at agricultural value and spend a couple of hundred pounds in erecting a brick kiln, and that will be allowed for; but the whole of the real value arising from making the bricks will come in as the increment value of the land. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] The prospect of having to take these risks, and their indefiniteness, will deter men from such enterprises. There is also another point, with reference to small holdings. One of the objects, we are told, of imposing this tax is to render land available for small holdings or allotments, but the levying of an increased duty is not the way to produce this result. The hon. Member for South East Lancashire (Mr. W. Adkins), speaking for the hon. Members on the other side of the House, who have shown considerable sympathy with this Amendment said that they had a superficial sympathy with it. I do not think for a single moment that he represented the feelings of Members who represent agricultural communities, who, I believe, have a sympathy with this Amendment in this sense: that they do not desire to see agricultural land burdened with a new tax. In the Bill as at present drawn, agricultural land is taxed, and it will be interesting to see how the right hon. Gentleman will draw a fair line between land which is to be exempted and land which is to be treated as taxable. One of the most objectionable burdens imposed on owners of land by this Bill is the burden of making their own valuation. We are told that owners of agricultural land are not to pay Income Tax, and the right hon. Gentleman is going to introduce an Amendment to that effect.
It is in the Bill already—in the actual lines.
The lines which I have got here do not exempt agricultural land. They only exempt that part of it which is due to works of a permanent character executed by or on behalf of any person interested in the land. But let us assume that it is in the Bill now, that owners of land are not to pay Income Tax or Reversionary Duty or Undeveloped Land Duty; then why do you want any valuation from them at all? To what end are owners of land to be put to the expense of having it valued both for its actual capital value as a whole and for its site value when there will be no tax whatever levied on the valuation? I do not think that the Attorney General (Sir William Robson), with all his able advocacy, could explain this. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lloyd-George) used a sympathetic expression, and said he was desirous of dealing generously with agricultural land. This Amendment deals only with a portion of the burden on agricultural land, and the right hon. Gentleman must bear in mind that we who have agricultural land have our eyes fixed on another part of the Bill in which he proposes to alter the whole basis of collecting Death Duties on agricultural land in order to insert a new valuation under which I suppose he is to get a higher duty than is now obtained. When we come to deal with that we shall be more convinced of his anxiety to deal generously with agricultural land by the absence of that provision from that part of the Bill.
In regard to another point, the right hon. Gentleman thought that the assessment of income upon which taxation of agricultural land is based should be amended. I would point out to him that under existing circumstances that would be a very valuable concession. But we have to consider the effect of placing these burdens on agricultural land, and the effect of a valuation upon agricultural land which is admittedly to be the basis for a still further imposition, and which removes from the agricultural holders the one thing under the basis, namely, security. On the faith of that security owners of land have, as admitted in all quarters of the House, and by the right hon. Gentleman himself, shown it to be their duty and their desire to accept interest of 1 per cent, or 2 per cent, on all the capital they have invested in the land by effecting permanent improvements which are required for its cultivation. If these taxes are imposed upon the land the security is gone, and with it is gone any inducement on the part of a prudent man to continue his investment of capital in matters of that description. Therefore, of what value would it be, first of all, to remove from the owners the ability and inducement to make improvements, and then to alter the schedule in order that when they do make those improvements they may be taxed upon them. It would be too late. It would be of no use giving us the privilege of regaining our income under Schedule D, if the improvements which they have been making, and which we desire to continue to make, are to be rendered no longer possible because of the removal from us of our security, and of the inducement to continue spending money on the land. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will see that this Budget as a whole constitutes a distinct attack upon the ownership of agricultural land. And it is construed and accepted as such by hon. Gentlemen opposite, who consistently desire to attack the ownership of property of all descriptions. They welcome it; they desire to attack security. The real question at the root of the whole of this matter, and at the root of the prosperity of this country, is security. The desire of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway is to remove the security which the owners of property now possess in this country. ["No."] That is the way we interpret their argument. I think that is the way the country interprets their argument. But is that the object of the Government?
The Government, I assume, will say it is not. I would point out that this is the direct consequence, and the main consequence of their action. They have by imposing the tax greatly lowered the standard of the feeling of security throughout the country. It has already had a most mischievous effect upon the development of trade and industry, and if these taxes are carried by Parliament in regard to agricultural land, the effect will be still worse. In moving this Amendment, I do feel the difficulty which was referred to very ably by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Simon). He pointed out that it was inconsistent in us to propose this Amendment, whilst at the same time we are saying that there is no conceivable difference between the principles upon which the Increment Duty should be levied upon various forms of property. I admit the inconsistency. But the standpoint I take up is this, that we object to the whole thing on principle. We object to the principle on which these taxes are based by the Government. The principles which I have referred to since the beginning of what I have to say are, from our point of view, untenable. We are obliged owing to the forms of business in this House to appear to admit the principles for the moment in order to point out the particular hardship in the case of agricultural land; but in doing that we must not be taken for one moment to assent to the principle that the tax is a fair one on any form of property. By this Amendment we desire to point out that there is a special hardship in the case of agricultural land, and we do call upon all those who represent agricultural Constituencies, even though the Members themselves be not agriculturists, to bear in mind the interests of their constituents. We hope, as in the case of hon. Gentlemen from Ireland, Members of this House on whatever side they sit, who have at heart the interest of the rural districts, and will not desire to see them further depopulated.
The right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, said he accepted what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said in regard to the exclusion of agricultural land from the Increment Tax, and that being so, I must candidly say that I do not understand why he did not see fit, after accepting the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, to withdraw the Amendment which he has moved. I represent a large agricultural Constituency, and I can say, speaking for the majority of my Constituents, that I am perfectly satisfied with the assurances and promises of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Hon. Gentlemen ask what are those assurances? The right hon. Gentleman has told us openly that agricultural land is not to be subject to this Increment Tax. ["No, no."] Yes; all ordinary agricultural land is to be exempted from the Increment Tax. The tax, it is true, is to apply to any agricultural land when that agricultural land has, in addition to its agricultural value, a special value arising from its nearness to towns, or from the fact that a railway has suddenly come into the neighbourhood, or something of that kind; but as purely agricultural land it is held to be exempt. I agree with what the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. J. Redmond) said, that Amendments will have to be made in the Bill. I give my reason for that, and perhaps I can best do so by means of a simple illustration. Let us suppose that a man buys a sheep farm with no buildings on it for the sum of £1,200. He buys it, and a few years afterwards dies, and when it is valued the widow takes it over at a valuation of £1,400. In the Bill as it now stands the widow will have to pay one-fifth of the increment; but after the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer no such Increment Duty would be payable at all. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh, yes; it is not in the Bill."] I understand the speech which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made, and I do think, therefore, that those of us who represent agricultural constituencies ought to be very grateful indeed to the right hon. Gentleman. Remember, that not only is agricultural land not subject to the Increment Tax, but it is not subject, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, to the Undeveloped Land Duty, and it is not subject to the Reversion Duty; in fact, it is not hit at all as compared with other forms of property. On the other hand, the agricultural community is getting very great benefits indeed; it is getting £600,000 a year for the roads of the country. Some portion of that, at any rate, will help the agricultural community. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us to-day that half the produce of all these land taxes were to go in reduction of the rates. I must candidly say, having regard to these facts, that I do not wonder, not only that Members for agricultural constituencies are going to support the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this occasion, but that also a very large number of farmers are in favour of this Budget. I was in my Constituency during the Whitsuntide recess, and everywhere I found, amongst the agriculturists at all events, warm enthusiasm for this Budget. One can only speak of one's own experience. Though the Chancellor of the Exchequer may be no dearer in London drawing rooms or to the wealthy land-owners, I am quite sure that the working portion of the agricultural community value the benefits which he has given, and are going to support him at the first opportunity.
I happen to represent a constituency which is in the centre of one of the most important agricultural districts in the whole of England, and I was rather interested to hear the experience of the hon. Member among the farmers in some portions of Devonshire, because it only shows what a difference there is between the feeling in adjoining counties. I can assure him the sensations of the farmers of Somersetshire are widely divided from those of Devonshire. I can hardly, I am afraid, share the enthusiasm and the gushing gratitude which the hon. Member seems to feel for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The feeling of hon. Members opposite seems to be that the Chancellor might as well have put a tax on everything all over the country. When some happy and singularly fortunate individual finds that he is not subject to some heavy tax he goes down on his knees to the Chancellor, and thanks him for that fortunate favour. The hon. Member said that, after all, agricultural land is going to be entirely exempt from this taxation, including, I think, agricultural leases. I did not know that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lloyd-George) had said that, but he did say there are exceptions in certain cases, such as the proximity to towns. After all, that is a fairly common case in a small country of this kind, except possibly in Dartmoor or Exmoor. Then he dealt with railways and the question of the proximity of a railway station making a great difference as to the levying of this Increment Tax. If you eliminate proximity of railways and of towns, where is your agricultural land left? I think in that case the gratitude of the hon. Member opposite was possibly a little premature, and, I think, also a little overdone. I do not entirely share, I confess, the passion of the hon. Member for the Lichfield Division (Mr. Courtenay Warner) for taxation. He told us he positively welcomed this Increment Duty. I only hope, for the sake of the hon. Member, that his possessions in Walthamstow have been converted into stock, and that he is enjoying the produce of railways in Argentina. But the hon. Member had also, I think, a great tenderness for accommodation land. I quite join in the expressions of opinion he addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in favour of treatment for accommodation land.
I do not think I had any particular tenderness. I asked a question so as to open up the subject.
I thought the hon. Member asked the question with a tenderness in his voice. In reference to a remark by the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr.Scott), I fail to see why a small owner, because he combines in himself the virtues of both owner and occupier, should bear this taxation with greater equanimity. The Chancellor of the Exchequer claims that under Clause 2 the exemption of agricultural land is completely secured. Having lived all my life in one of the great market-gardening districts of England, I am very familiar with that system of agriculture. A great deal of the value of that class of land is not attributable to works in the ordinary sense at all. It is "made" land, and its value is due to a long system of treating, manuring, and caring for, not only by the present owner, but by his predecessors for perhaps a hundred years. It is difficult to see how, under any of the exemptions named in Clause 2, allowance can be made for that value, but unless it is allowed for you will be surely taxing value which is strictly attributable to the work and energy of the owner and his predecessors. That is one ground on which I think this Amendment should be accepted. We are told that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has dealt with particular generosity with land, because, out of the taxation imposed on motorists, there is to be a large grant towards land development. As a motorist, I am glad to contribute towards the improvement of the roads; but I understand that the money is to be given, not in any sense for the improvement of agriculture, but for cutting off blind corners, enlarging certain portions of the highways, making roads, and so forth. Now, I should like to know what benefit this is going to be to agriculturists? It will be none at all. Therefore, this fresh expenditure on the country from the proceeds of your motor taxes cannot in any sense be a set-off against the fresh taxes you are imposing on the land. Might I interject for one moment a few observations from the point of view of the municipalities. Do you think that all these motor taxes are going to be expended upon the strengthening of the roads in the country. If you do, I can only say that you will raise such a disturbance and such an indignation amongst the municipalities of this country—
The hon. Member is trenching upon another point.
I certainly will not pursue that matter further. I was solely dealing with that point because it was raised by the hon. Member for North Devonshire (Mr. Soares), who said that agriculturists ought to be extremely lucky because they were going to get large sums spent upon the land. But, of course, if you say I must not answer the hon. Member, I will not pursue the subject further. I wish to say one little word on the general position of agriculture in respect to these taxes, because I am one of those who hold that so far from the taxation of agriculture in this country—by far the greatest and most important industry in this country—being more enhanced, it ought to be largely diminished. It cannot be forgotten that the very men who brought about that great change in the fiscal system of this country, which has been the result of this large drop in the value of land, admitted that far too heavy charges were cast at that time upon land. In consequence of those changes in our fiscal system, large deductions ought to be made in the burdens that fell upon the land. I have been reinforced in that opinion by no less than two Royal Commissions, which have reported upon the condition of agriculture in this country. In 1896 a Commission reported upon agriculture. That Royal Commission reported that the burdens borne by agriculture and the taxation of the country were undoubtedly too heavy. The words of the Commission were:—
Again, estimating how the Death Duties of 1894 fell upon the land, it was estimated that of the £2,700,000 additional Death Duties, £600,000 fell upon land. Whereas, if that new taxation had fallen equitably upon the different properties, it would have been £273,000 upon land and £824,000 upon the different classes of property. So much for the Report of the Commission of 1896, and as hon. Members know that change in the burden of the agricultural rating was passed by the late Government and assented to after a struggle by the present Government, and was the only change made in favour of agriculturists since the time that Commission reported. What did the commission on local taxation also report? It reported that large sums ought to be contributed by the Imperial Exchequer towards local rating. What did that mean? It meant that land and landed property had the bulk of the rating falling upon it and that it ought to be assisted by a far larger proportion than it already received out of the purse into which the general taxation of the country went. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has already admitted that land is far more heavily taxed than other kinds of property, and more heavily taxed than it ought to be according to the method of assessing. The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyme seemed to suggest—[Cries of "Divide, divide."] May I ask hon. Members to give me a hearing. I have been brought up on the land all my life and I am interested in it. I suppose they are interested in town matters, but I represent an agricultural constituency in Somersetshire, and I hope they will give me a hearing. The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyme seemed to think that the result of all improvement either in the way of the development of towns or manufactures had the result merely of throwing more land into the hands of the landowners. I think I can give some figures which will entirely dispose of that idea. In this country during the last 110 years—[Cries of "Divide, divide."] I am afraid I shall be longer if hon. Members persist in interrupting me. I can tell them I am entirely accustomed to noisy meetings—in this country during the last 110 years the rent of the land relatively to national income has not only been a decreasing quantity, but a quantity constantly diminishing. In 1798 the rent of land in Ireland would have been something like 40 per cent, of the whole of the income. In 1851 it was 22 per cent., in 1880 17 per cent., and at the present time it is not more than 11 per cent. These figures relate to all land, agricultural and urban, and if I take the case of agricultural land alone we find that in 1814 its valuation 34 per cent, of the total, while it is only 3½ per cent, at the present time. I say that these facts entirely disprove the proposition of the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyme, who said we ought to tax the increment on the land simply because of the advantage both in increment and development, and increase comes into the hands of the landlord in the shape of rent. So far from that being true, the increase in the value of other forms of property has grown enormously and in a greater proportion than the increment in the value of land. Take, for example, the way in which agricultural land has diminished during the last 30 or 40 years. During the last 60 years the loss through the diminished value of land amounts to £1,000,000,000. After suffering this gigantic loss, is it fair to single out land-owners, and select this particular form of property for special taxation? The little advantage which some land-owners gain, owing to the increase in the value of land near towns, might very fairly be set against the enormous decrement they have suffered in past years. I protest against a proposal of this kind, which, I believe, when it is thoroughly examined, will be found to be wholly impracticable. It is very hard and quite unnecessary that you should try this experiment—for experiment it is—upon a body of men who have suffered so cruelly for the past 50 or 60 years. This policy can only have the result of diminishing the amount of capital that will be applied to agriculture in the future. It will decrease the number of small holdings and allotments, and that small ownership of land upon which hon. Members opposite have set their hearts. I know from bitter experience the tremendous struggle made by landlords during the last 20 or 30 years to expend every penny they could in maintaining that high standard of improvements which has been the great tradition of English land for many generations. If their efforts in this direction are to be requited by having fresh taxes cast upon them after the great efforts they have been making, there can only be one result. I am not speaking of those large land owners who have been able to maintain their property in splendid condition be cause of the large sums of money they have invested in towns and in other countries. I am speaking of the smaller land-owners, who have not played a big part in town life or entered much into politics, but have lived their own life on their own country side. I should like to point out to Members who are interested in town life that if they are going to place additional bur dens on those interested in country life they will, for instance, interfere with a supply of pure milk. Let it not be for gotten that the towns owe the great bulk of their vigour and energy to the recruits whom they receive from the country. Agriculture will long survive in this country when towns which exist on mines or passing industries will long have settled into silence.
I have to ask a question on which the votes of many of my hon. Friends will depend. I want to know whether the Increment Tax will be charged upon increment due to agricultural recovery or merely on improvements due to proximity to urban sites?
I thought I had made it clear that I do not think it would be fair to put the tax on increment due to agricultural recovery. It is intended to confine it to what may be called urban areas.
This Debate has proved two or three things conclusively. It has established beyond question tine truth of the contention, urged from these Benches on the second reading, that this so-called Finance Bill is not really a Finance Bill, but an omnibus measure, containing very far-reaching and drastic measures of reform, and even of revolution If there be any doubt about that, it surely must be admitted by those who have listened to this Debate from its commencement that the speeches have made it manifest that it has only been possible to deal with it in the most inadequate way. And why? Because we are compelled to deal with this important question of the taxation of land under conditions which make it impossible for us to refer to other parts of the Bill. Even the Chancellor of the Exchequer experienced that difficulty, because he was compelled to make an announcement in the course of his speech on one part of the clause which referred to another part, in order to allay the alarm of some of his hon. Friends behind him. The right hon. Gentleman was clearly conscious of the difficulty when he asked leave to make that brief statement on a point with which we have found it impossible to deal in every speech made, and especially in the speech of the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Peel), which was greeted with jeers and laughter from hon. Members opposite, although he was telling a plain and true tale of English agricultural life. Hon. Members opposite who are anxious to impose this tax without weighing its justice or injustice are not even willing to listen to the defence of men who, alike by experience and their own knowledge, are entitled to tell the tale on behalf of those who, we believe, are being unfairly attacked by your proposals. Yes, but there is something else which has been established in this Debate—something much more important. During the second reading Debate Gentlemen on this side of the House challenged the Government, and said this Bill, whether good or bad, is conceived in the spirit and on the principles of Socialistic legislation. What kind of answer did the Chancellor of the Exchequer give? His answer was: "You are charging us with being the slaves of Socialism; nothing of the kind. What we are proposing here is proposed in other countries, where they are as much opposed to Socialism as we are." That was no answer to our question. We asked him whether or not he admitted that the principles underlying these proposals are principles favoured by the Socialist party. I can well understand that hon. Gentlemen become impatient. What have we heard tonight? We have heard, and I venture to say the whole of the Committee will agree with me when I say it, at once the most capable and brilliant exponent of the views of Socialism tell us, after a brilliant speech, that he wished to lay down the general line upon which he and his party were prepared to act in future, because they were prepared to sit silent and leave the defence of their principles to Gentlemen opposite.
I did not recognise myself at first, but the quotation I did recognise, and it is altogether inaccurate. I said we would sit silent, and we were very much amused by the speeches which were delivered from the Front Opposition Bench.
I think the Committee will agree with me it was the speeches delivered by the Government and the Opposition. I have no intention whatever of evading that the hon. Gentleman not only included my right hon. Friend, but declared that he would regard him as one of his leaders. I can only say that I, with perfect satisfaction, should contemplate the possibility of the hon. Member for Leicester following my right hon. Friend, so long as he is a docile follower, and in that case we shall have gained a very able recruit. But we are not supporting this Bill, we are opposing it deeply and bitterly, and what we are concerned in is: What is the opinion of those best qualified to judge of the character of the measure and that part of it which we are discussing? The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his defence to-night, challenged us, and said, you have no right to advance this principle of the exemption of agricultural land unless you can show that there is something different between agricultural land and other land which is liable to the tax.
I will endeavour to show that there is a very wide distinction, and that the difficulty which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in is a practical difficulty. The contention of the Government is that if you are to admit the right of laying this kind of tax upon any class of land you cannot exclude agricultural land, which would come within the purview of this Bill. I do not understand the contention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that some words in the latter part of Clause 2 protect agricultural land. I have observed with great interest that hon. Gentlemen opposite who represent agricultural constituencies have either been silent to-night or have asked interesting questions, and have been profuse in their assurances of gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman for the great benefit he is going to confer upon agriculture; and, secondly, for the generous assurance that he has made to-night. I have been identified for more than 30 years with the agricultural interest, and I will undertake to say that, if the Government will surrender their taxation proposals in regard to land, the agricultural interest will cheerfully accept that in exchange for what they are going to give them.
Not the tenant farmer.
What right has the hon. Gentleman to suggest that those who have been connected with agriculture all their lives do not speak as much for the tenant farmers as for the landlords or the labourers? At all events, upon this Question I am not afraid to say that the opinion which we hold will be supported by the great bulk of the tenant farmers of the country, and, when the time comes, we shall know whether I am right or hon. Gentlemen opposite are right.
The two reasons I desire to advance in favour of the special exemption of agricultural land are that, taking the description given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and taking the defence advanced by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Simon), I am satisfied that you are attempting what you cannot perform. It has been said that what is wanted is to get hold of land which is held up and tax it on the value which it has and which the owner does not acknowledge. But that is not what you are going to do. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that in this taxable land will come accommodation land. What is accommodation land? The hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Ivor Guest) put an interesting question to the right hon. Gentleman—I know he had answered it twice—
Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that I knew that the question was to be put?
I made no suggestion of that kind. I say the right hon. Gentleman had answered the question twice before this evening. That is to say, he was happily in possession of the fact. I dispute whether it is a fact, but he was able to say that in Clause 2 there were many safeguards. Earlier in the evening he told us that, in addition to land which goes for building, there was what is called accommodation land. Anybody who knows anything about landed estates knows that accommodation land is not limited to the propinquity of towns.
Is not that covered Toy what the Chancellor said in his reply?
I am quite sure that the Chancellor will not say that it is covered by the provision in regard to agricultural land. It is not. This incident shows the difficulties and the confusion in which we are. The kind of accommodation land to which I am referring must be as familiar to hon. Members opposite as to me, and they know that it has nothing to do with propinquity to towns. There is land on every estate which is called accommodation land. Why? Not because it is near a town, but because it has a special letting value which makes it doubly or trebly valuable. The Chancellor has told us that that will be included. If you are going to charge increment value on any land there is no definition which will enable you to escape from taxing that land also.
Let us come to a further point. The hon. and learned Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Simon), in his able speech, told us, roughly speaking, that if you take agricultural land generally throughout the country it gets its value on a more or less uniform system in consequence of industry and the developments which are employed upon it—the machinery and so forth which is used. There is nothing further from the truth than that statement. That will not be confirmed by any man who has a practical knowledge of land. Anybody can find land of the same quality and character in different parts of the country which is worth three times more in one place than in another. I do not myself know what the circumstances are which produce the difference. I have often wondered what are the reasons which give land its special value. Who is going to define agricultural value? I now come to a point raised by the hon. Member for Cardiff (Mr. Ivor Guest). Are you going to charge this increment value on land which owes its improved value to the recovery which has been the result of the efforts of certain people? The Chancellor of the Exchequer says "No." What is there in the Bill to prevent it? No words will prevent it. The duty is to be performed by the Commission. Is anyone going to say what will be the interpretation placed on this Bill by the Commission, or whether they will accept the definition given across the floor of the House that in certain cases increment value will be due to the action of the individual, and in other cases due to the action of the community? There is no attempt made to show that the so-called security for agricultural land is in any way to be relied on.
Coming to my second ground, I say that in these proposals the Government are asking their friends to reverse the policy accepted as a common policy by both parties since 1878. In that year the first great Motion was carried which affirmed that the burdens upon agricultural land were unjust and extreme, and that personalty ought to make its contribution to relieve them. Ever since both parties have been doing their best to deal with this difficult question. They have never yet found its solution. The only means by which they have attempted to do it has been by making contributions out of the Exchequer nominally derived from personal estate in aid of local taxation. It is a clumsy method, but the best hitherto devised. But now they are deliberately imposing a new burden, and one that will increase as time goes on and become heavier still, on that realty which they have hitherto joined with all others in admitting had its due share of the burdens of the country placed upon it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us to-night that he proposed by a subsequent Amendment to divide the amount resulting from this taxation between the local rates and the Imperial taxes. Year after year the owners of realty have been coming to this House asking for relief, and both parties have admitted the justice of the complaint, but could not find any method of relief, and now the Chancellor of the Exchequer says: "It is quite true that you owners of realty are most unfairly rated, arid, therefore, we will give you abundant relief, by adding to your taxes and allowing you to have part of the taxes back." That is the most extraordinary thing that has happened in this Debate. There have been very few references to it in the discussion. It has been accepted in silence by hon. Gentlemen opposite, many of whom represent agricultural districts, as a new settlement of this question, although it places new burdens on the shoulders of those people whose cry, hitherto admitted by both sides, has been that their burden was utterly unjust and intolerable. The hon. Member for Taunton spoke with absolute truth, and I confess I was surprised at the laughter on the part of hon. Gentlemen when he stated that the agricultural estates of this country since 1879 had been called upon to contend with very great difficulties. I believe, however enthusiastic hon. Members below the Gangway may be in support of this particular policy, if they heard the plain and unexaggerated statement of the figures and history of those estates they would be among the very first to say that they should be exempt from this tax. Hon. Gentlemen opposite treat this as if it were imposing a burden on some wealthy land-owners. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has confessed that in 1879 the tax on agriculture, combined with the terrible character of that season, brought great distress. This combination first made itself felt in 1879, and on top of that came the worst season ever known in agriculture, and many a landlord and tenant farmer in this country were brought to the verge, of ruin. I am not speaking for my own class alone, but for the tenants, when I say that through those hard times mutual help and mutual self-denial were shown. Many a landlord can now point with pride to the fact that he saved tenants by sharing their troubles. How was that done? By the wholesale reduction of what are called the amenities of country life. We reduced our own pleasure gardens, we cut down the number of our horses and what may be called luxuries. Take the man who had put down four of five acres of pleasure gardens. It meant the loss of so much garden ground to him, but it also meant the loss of wages to four or five agricultural labourers. I venture to say that in regard to the vast majority of agricultural estates in this country the owners are only just able to make both ends meet.
We are told that we are able to bear the extra burdens, but the answer to that can be given at the proper time, and the reply will be unanswerable. Meantime, you are, by your own admission, going to lay this tax on land which is purely agricultural, though much of the accommodation land is nothing but agricultural land. I say you cannot give to the Commissioners any instructions, however clever you may be in draftsmanship, which will enable them to make this impossible distinction. You are not only laying a fresh burden which you admit yourselves you are just creating, and which will be thrown upon the realty of this country, but you are throwing upon industry a tax which in the main will have to be borne by the working classes, and I submit this exemption ought to be made in common justice and in accordance with the statements you have made yourselves. In moving this Amendment we are in no way committing ourselves to a principle which we believe to be vicious and bad. What we are asking; is, if you are determined to apply it, that a certain class of land which we believe to be well and efficiently used now should not be subject to it because it is not in a position to bear so unjust and so heavy a new tax.
Question put: "That the word 'any' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 301; Noes, 196.
Division No. 184.] AYES. [11.15 p.m. Agnew, George William Barker, Sir John Black, Arthur W. Alden, Percy Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Boulton, A. C. F. Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Barnes, G N. Bowerman, C. W. Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Barran Rowland Hirst Bramsdon, T. A. Armitage, R. Barran, Sir John Nicholson Branch, James Ashton, Thomas Gair Beauchamp, E. Brigg, John Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Beaumont, Hon. Hubert Bright, J. A. Astbury, John Meir Bellairs, Carlyon Brocklehurst, W. B. Atherley-Jones, L. Benn, W. (lower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Brodie, H. C. Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Bennett, E. N. Brooke, Stopford Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Berridge, T. H. D. Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustin Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Bryce, J. Annan Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Buckmaster, Stanley O. Henry, Charles S. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Burns, Rt. Hon. John Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Pirie, Duncan V. Burnyeat, W. J. D. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Pointer, J. Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Higham, John Sharp Pollard, Dr. G. H. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Byles, William Pollard Holden, E. Hopkinson Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Cameron, Robert Holt, Richard Durning Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hooper, A. G. Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Cawley, Sir Frederick Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) Radford, G. H. Channing, Sir Francis Allston Horniman, Elmslle John Rainy, A. Rolland Cheetham, John Frederick Horridge, Thomas Gardner Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Rendall, Athelstan Cleland, J. W. Hyde, Clarendon G. Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Clough, William Idris, T. H. W. Richardson, A. Clynes, J. R. Illingworth, Percy H. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Cobbold, Felix Thornley Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Cooper, G. J. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Robinson, S. Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Robson, Sir William Snowdon Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Jowett, F. W. Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Kekewich, Sir George Roe, Sir Thomas Cox, Harold Kelley, George D. Rogers, F. E. Newman Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Rose, Charles Day Crooks, William Laidlaw, Robert Rowlands, J. Crosfield, A. H. Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Crossley, William J. Lamont, Norman Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Dalziel, Sir James Henry Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Lea, Hugh Cecil (St. Pancras, E.) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Leese, Sir John F. (Accrington) Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lehmann, R. C. Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Levy, Sir Maurice Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lewis, John Herbert Seaverns, J. H. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Seely, Colonel Dobson, Thomas W. Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Shackleton, David James Duckworth, Sir James Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lynch, H. B. Shipman, Dr. John G. Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Simon, John Allsebrook Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Mackarness, Frederic C. Snowden, P. Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Maclean, Donald Soames, Arthur Wellesley Essex, R. W. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Soares, Ernest J. Evans, Sir Samuel T. Macpherson, J. T. Spicer, Sir Albert Everett, R. Lacey M'Callum, John M. Stanger, H. Y Falconer, James McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) Fenwick, Charles M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Steadman, W. C. Ferens, T. R. Maddison, Frederick Stewart, Halley (Greenock) Findlay, Alexander Mallet, Charles E. Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Manfield, Harry (Northants) Strachey, Sir Edward Fuller, John Michael F. Markham, Arthur Basil Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Fullerton, Hugh Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Furness, Sir Christopher Marnham, F. J. Summerbell, T. Gibb, James (Harrow) Massie, J. Taylor, John W. (Durham) Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Masterman, C. F. G. Taylor, Theodore C. (Ratcliffe) Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Menzies, Walter Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Glover, Thomas Micklem, Nathaniel Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Middlebrook, William Thomasson, Franklin Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Molteno, Percy Alport Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Mond, A. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Griffith, Ellis J. Money, L. G. Chlozza Tomkinson, James Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Montagu, Hon. E. S. Toulmin, George Gulland, John W. Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Hall, Frederick Morrell, Philip Verney, F. W. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Morse, L. L. Vivian, Henry Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Walsh, Stephen Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Walters, John Tudor Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Myer, Horatio Walton, Joseph Harmsworth, R. L.(Caithness-sh.) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Hart-Davies, T. Nicholls, George Wardle, George J. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Norman, Sir Henry Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Harwood, George Norton, Captain Cecil William Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Nussey, Thomas Willans Waterlow, D. S. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Nuttall, Harry Watt, Henry A. Haworth, Arthur A. O'Grady, J. Wedgwood, Josiah C. Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. Parker, James (Halifax) Weir, James Galloway Hedges, A. Paget Partington, Oswald White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Helme, Norval Watson Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Whitehead, Rowland Hemmerde, Edward George Pearce, William (Limehouse) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Wiles, Thomas Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Yoxall, James Henry Wilkie, Alexander Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Joseph Pease and the Master of Williamson, A. Winfrey, R. Elibank. Wills, Arthur Walters Wood, T. M'Kinnon
NOES. Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) Freeman-Thomas, Freeman O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Gardner, Ernest O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.) Ambrose, Robert Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Anstruther-Gray, Major Ginnell, L. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Arkwright, John Stanhope Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) O'Malley, William Ashley, W. W. Gretton, John O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Balcarres, Lord Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Parkes, Ebenezer Baldwin, Stanley Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Paulton, James Mellor Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Haddock, George B. Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hamilton, Marquess of Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Banner, John S. Harmood- Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Peel, Hon. W. Robert Wellesley Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) Harris, Frederick Leverton Percy, Earl Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Philips, John (Longford, S.) Barry, E. (Cork, S.) Kay, Hon. Claude George Povell, Sir Francis Sharp Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Hayden, John Patrick Power, Patrick Joseph Beck, A. Cecil Hazleton, Richard Pretyman, E. G. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hill, Sir Clement Randles, Sir John Scurrah Bignold, Sir Arthur Hobart, Sir Robert Raphael, Herbert H. Boland, John Hogan, Michael Ratcliff, Major R. F. Bowles, G. Stewart Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Reddy, M. Bridgeman, W. Clive Houston, Robert Paterson Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Bull, Sir William James Hunt, Rowland Redmond, William (Clare) Burdett-Coutts, W. Joyce, Michael Remnant, James Farquharson Burke, E. Haviland- Joynson-Hicks, William Renwick, George Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Kavanagh, Walter M. Ridsdale, E. A. Carlile, E. Hildred Kennedy, Vincent Paul Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclsshall) Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Kerry, Earl of Roche, Augustine (Cork) Castlereagh, Viscount Keswick, William Roche, John (Galway, East) Cave, George Kettle, Thomas Michael Ronaldshay, Earl of Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kilbride, Denis Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Chance, Frederick William Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Salter, Arthur Clavell Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Sandys, Col. Thos. Myles Clancy, John Joseph Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Clark, George Smith Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Sheehy, David Clive, Percy Archer Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Lowe, Sir Francis William Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Condon, Thomas Joseph Lundon, T. Stanier, Beville Cory, Sir Clifford John Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred Stanley, Hen. Arthur (Ormskirk) Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Starkey, John R. Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Craik, Sir Henry MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.) Crean, Eugene MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury) Cullinan, J. M'Arthur, Charles Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Lanark) Dalmeny, Lord M'Calmont, Colonel James Thornton, Percy M. Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) M'Kean, John Valentia, Viscount Delany, William Magnus, Sir Philip Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Walrond, Hon. Lionel Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Mason, James F. (Windsor) Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Waring, Walter Donelan, Captain A. Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Whitbread, S. Howard Doughty, Sir George Meysey-Thompson, E. C. White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers Middlemore, John Throgmorton White, Patrick (Meath, North) Du Cros, Arthur Mildmay, Francis Bingham Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh) Mooney, J. J. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Faber, George Denison (York) Morpeth, Viscount Winterton, Earl Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) Morrison-Bell, Captain Wodehouse, Lord Fardell, Sir T. George Nannetti, Joseph P. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Fell, Arthur Napier, T. B. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Ferguson, R. C. Munre Newdegate, F. A. Younger, George Ffrench, Peter Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Field, William Nolan, Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir Fletcher, J. S. O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) A. Acland-Hood and Mr. H. W. Flynn, James Christopher O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Forster. Foster, P. S. Oddy, John James
claimed to move: "That the Question, 'That the words of the Clause to the word "of" [ i.e ., the words "land a duty, called increment value duty, at the rate of"] stand part of the Clause,' be now put.'"
"Put the whole Bill."
Will hon. Members have the courtesy— [Interruption.]
The right hon. Gentleman's Motion would have the effect of stopping discussion on the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Laurence Hardy), which appears to be an Amendment of importance relating to the question of minerals under land. If the Committee are prepared to discuss that, I shall decline to accept a Motion for the closure; otherwise I shall accept it.
May I ask whether your ruling is the same as last night? It may be within your recollection that I raised a point as to whether this agricultural Amendment resting on the word "any" should precede the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. W. W. Rutherford). You stated that the agricultural Amendment should have precedence. As I understand you—and I speak within the recollection of the Committee—you held that the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Liverpool could subsequently be moved. I ask you, sir, whether you will not adhere to that ruling in view of the proposal just made?
With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. Burdett-Coutts), the ruling I gave was that the acceptance of the Amendment upon which we have just divided would not in itself preclude the Other Amendment from being put. I gave no promise that it should be put.
May I, on a point of order, say that it was obvious last night that the words of my Amendment were to some extent looked at as being out of place. I think it was suggested by the Chair, and it was accepted, that if an additional Amendment was put down in its place it would be in order. I very respectfully submit that it is an exceedingly substantial point, and I ask whether you will, in your discretion, give such a ruling as will include that Amendment for discussion.
As to my Amendment—the insertion after "any" of the words "vacant or unbuilt upon"—is it in order to exclude that Amendment? If the Amendment is in order, I respectfully submit that it is not in order to exclude it.
Is there any precedent on a Finance Bill for taking this drastic course?
If the right hon. Gentleman wants to know whether there is any precedent for the decision, I have just announced there are several precedents, both by the present Speaker when Chairman of Committees, and also by Lord Courtney when Chairman of Com mittees—
On a Finance Bill?
Does the hon. Member for Ashford want to move his Amendment?
I am in rather a difficult position in reference to the Amendment which stands in my name, because it is one of very great importance. I could understand if an Amendment of this character was closured, it would exclude an Amendment which for the first time brings before the House this extremely important question. I have, however, placed exactly the same Amendment down upon another portion of the clause, because I had a desire that every argument should be used to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in addition to any I might have been able to use myself, and in a very short time the whole of the mine-owners' associations of the country are going to meet the right hon. Gentleman to explain to him the objections they have to the various duties dealing with minerals, and I confess I think it would be more convenient that the discussion should be subsequent to the opportunity which the right hon. Gentleman would have of obtaining from them the full information he would get.
On a point of order. You, Sir, as Chairman, have not accepted the Motion for the closure, and therefore I rise to ask whether, since my Amendment is in order, are you not entitled to call upon me before calling upon the present Amendment. I am very loth to interfere with the hon. Member (Mr. Laurence Hardy), but I submit that my Amendment should be first called.
On a point of order, I wish to state most emphatically I have no objection to having my Amendment closured, if it is in order to do so, but I object to the closure being applied before my Amendment is moved.
I do not know whether the hon. Member is objecting to my action. If so, will he kindly put a notice on the Order Paper?
On a point of order—
What I said was that if the Committee would proceed to the Amendment, then I should not accept the closure, but if they did not proceed to the Amendment I should accept the closure—
Is there any precedent for that?
I wish to ask you did you rule my Amendment to be out of order or in order?
I did not rule the hon. Member out of order. If he had risen and moved his Amendment I should have accepted the closure.
I wish to ask whether, under the Standing Order, it is competent to move the closure at all under existing circumstances? Before any such motion can be made the closure should have been moved, put, and carried.
That is a point which has often been ruled upon. There was no Amendment before the Committee, and therefore the clause was under the consideration of the Committee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer could, if he had chosen, move that the whole of the clause be put.
I wish to move my Amendment.
I must remind the hon. Member that the hon. Member for the Ashford Division is in possession.
As I understand, Sir, you have clearly indicated that, in your opinion, the points raised have not been sufficiently discussed, and that we are at liberty to discuss them further. I put it to you from the point of view of proper discussion whether, in your opinion, it is right to closure part of a clause when you have yourself admitted it has not been sufficiently discussed?
If I had not thought it right, I should not have done it. I am following precedents made by my predecessors. I have myself had to deal with Bills under closure by compartments, and I have never before used this particular precedent. It is a course which has been followed several times, and it seems to me a very useful one.
May I point out that if you call upon the hon. Member for the Ashford Division to move his Amendment before allowing me the opportunity of moving mine, you exclude my Amendment altogether, and I cannot see on what grounds you take that course?
Having given my decision upon this matter the hon. Member did not get up to move his Amendment. [OPPOSITION cries of "Yes he did."] If he had got up I should have accepted the closure.
As a matter of courtesy, may I ask for your ruling on the question of order I submitted which was that as the closure has not been accepted, why am I not entitled, as my Amendment is in order, to be called upon to move it?
If the hon. Member had risen and insisted upon moving his Amendment then I should have accepted the closure.
I have been placed in a position of extreme difficulty by being suddenly called upon to move my Amendment, which is all the more involved by the ruling which has just been given. The position is that for the first time in the history of this country the proposals of the Finance Bill are to go through without discussion.
Is the hon. Member addressing his remarks to the Amendment? I do not gather that what he is saying is relevant to the Amendment he is supposed to be moving.
I do not think it will be desirable to resume the discussion, and I should like to move "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Under those circumstances I must carry out what I have said. [HON. MEMBERS on the OPPOSITION benches: "Put the whole Bill."] The question is— [Interruption.] It has been moved that— [Interruption.] The hon. Member for the University of Dublin (Sir E. Carson) will have the courtesy to allow me to make my voice heard. [Interruption.]
I rise on a point of order. My Motion to report Progress has not been put. It was a Motion that you report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. Surely my Motion takes precedence of the Motion which you were about to put?
[OPPOSITION cries of "Send for the Speaker!" and "Put the whole Bill!"]
Surely my Motion to report Progress is before the Committee, and should take precedence of any other Motion.
If the hon. Member wishes to address me, surely he knows that he should do so seated and with his hat on.
(seated and wearing a hat): On a point of order, you called upon me, and I rose and spoke. The closure had not been put, and my Motion to report Progress should take precedence.
I did not take the Motion, and it was never put to the House. The Question is, "That the Question be now put."
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman does not apprehend that I have not yet put the main Question a second time.
Question put, "That the Question 'That the words of the clause to the word "of," in page 1, line 17, stand part of the clause,' be now put."
The Committee proceeded to a Division.
Mr. PEASE and the MASTER of ELIBANK were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, the Chairman declared the Ayes had it.
(seated and wearing a hat): I am not quite sure where we are.
If the right hon. Gentleman is asking me where we are, I have not yet put the Question for the second time.
Question put accordingly, "That the words of the clause to the word 'of,' in page 1, line 17, stand part of the clause."
The Committee proceeded to a Division.
Mr. PEASE and the MASTER of ELIBANK were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, the Chairman declared the Ayes had it.
moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Question put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow.
And, it being after Half-past Eleven of the clock on Tuesday evening, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, in pursuance of the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Two minutes after Twelve o'clock