House of Commons
Wednesday, June 23, 1909
Private Business
Cardiff Corporation Bill,
Considered; to be read the third time.
Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill
I beg to present a Petition from 13,583 inhabitants of Newcastle and district, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill, on the grounds that it interferes with the convenience of the public, allows a variation of hours in different localities, empowers justices to impose terms and conditions of Sunday closing, and increases the distance for bonâ fide travellers.
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Active Service Ratings Available on Shore
asked how many active-service ratings remained available on shore on 12th June?
I am advised that it is undesirable in the public interest to give this information.
Naval Expenditure (Destroyers)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that an average sum of £40,815 was to be spent this year upon the construction of the German destroyers of the current programme, and that the whole of the German vessels of the 1907–8 programme were in commission, while the earliest of the English were not expected to be delivered till October, he would now say whether the expenditure on the British destroyers of this year's programme would be increased above the figure of £5,450 each at which it now stood?
There is nothing to add to the reply given to the same question when put by the hon. Member on the 25th May last.
Is the consideration the right hon. Gentleman promised at that time still being given to this very important subject?
Yes.
When does the right hon. Gentleman hope to be able to give a definite answer?
When the Vote comes up for discussion will be the proper time to raise the question.
Russian Battleships (Armament)
asked what armament would be supplied to the four Russian battleships which had just been laid down?
According to the latest information which has appeared in the Press, these ships will be armed with
Base for Submarines (Firth of Tay)
asked what progress had been made towards the establishment of a base for submarines in the Firth of Tay?
Negotiations in this connection are now in progress with the Dundee Harbour authorities.
H.M.S. "Illustrious."
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he was aware that on the occasion of H.M.S. "Illustrious" coming out of dry dock recently it was found that, on account of faulty replacement of a valve, water had made its way into the ship, and that the water in the dock had to be pumped out again in order to remedy the defect, thus causing delay and expense; and what action he intended taking in the matter so as to prevent recurrence of such mishaps?
On the occasion referred to, leakage past a valve occurred, but no appreciable amount of water made its way into the ship. The water in the dock was pumped down in order to put the valve in order, but no delay or expense of importance was incurred. The occurrence was due to the improper replacement of the valve, for which an artificer engineer was responsible. There is nothing to show that it was due to the employment of unskilled men. No Admiralty action is proposed in the matter.
Protected Cruisers (Armaments)
asked whether the three-pounder guns of the "Hermes," "Highflyer," and similar class protected cruisers, had been removed because of their inadequacy as anti-torpedo weapons.
The answer to the hon. Member's question is in the negative.
H.M.S. "Renown" (Armament)
asked whether the Admiralty had any intention of replacing the secondary armament of the battleship "Renown."
The secondary armament will be replaced if the necessity arises.
"Indefatigable" (Date of Completion)
asked what were the displacement, speed, and armament of the "Indefatigable," building at Devonport; and when is she to be completed for sea?
It is not desirable in the public interest to give this information.
Naval Officers (Interpreters)
asked whether the 12 executive officers on the active list who had qualified as interpreters in German gained any pecuniary advantage from having done so; and what remuneration was granted to officers similarly qualified in Oriental languages?
The remuneration allowed to officers qualified in Oriental languages is at the following rates:—
Swahili, Arabic, or Hindustani and Persian taken together, 75 rupees per month.
Hindustani (revised test) or Persian, 50 rupees per month.
Officers qualified in Japanese or Chinese receive 2s. 6d. and 1s. per day, according to qualifications, when appointed as interpreters.
In view of the very few officers who have obtained the qualification, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of increasing the pecuniary advantage?
These are executive officers only; there are a number of other officers who also are qualified.
Is not the number of other officers referred to only 15?
I think the total number is 31.
Is not that number entirely inadequate?
Are officers of the Navy who have qualified in Oriential languages given any preference for service in the East, or do they reap any advantage for the pains they have been at to acquire these languages?
These officers receive an allowance immediately, and their qualifications help them later on.
Special Service Ships (Manning)
asked whether it was on the ground of public interest that information was refused as to the proportion of active service ratings, coastguards, and Royal Naval reserve men who were to mart the 16 special service ships taking part in the manœuvres?
Yes, Sir.
If there are 20 per cent, of active service ratings, how can it be against the public interest to say that they exist?
It is undesirable to state what is our system of manning the: ships.
Bacon Letters (Admiralty)
asked whether the Admiralty had evidence as to how the Bacon and other letters which left the Admiralty were circulated?
No, Sir.
Manœuvres (Manning of Vessels)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he would state the number of seamen and marines of all ranks and ratings, forming the nucleus, crews of vessels of all classes mobilised for the manœuvres; the numbers required to complete the full crews, and the source or sources, with the respective numbers, from which they were drawn?
It is undesirable to publish details of this nature as to the manning of the fleet.
Is it a fact that any vessels have been sent to take part in the present manœuvres without full crews on board?
I have already stated twice that all the ships taking part in the manœuvres are fully manned.
H.M.S. "Sappho" (Suggested Sale)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the age of the cruiser "Sappho," he would carefully consider the advisability of selling the vessel in her damaged condition instead of spending a considerable amount of money for salvage and temporary repairs, as was done in the case of the "Gladiator"?
The two cases in question do not bear comparison. The "Sappho" left Dover this morning for Chatham. As has been previously stated, the salvage of the "Gladiator" was necessary.
Does the "Sappho" belong to the "Apollo" class, which vessels were practically condemned four years ago?
No; they were not condemned.
Trade and Commerce on East Coast of Africa
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he was aware that a German shipping company was subsidised by the German Government in order that it might kill British Competition upon the East Coast of Africa, and subsequently impose its own rates upon British shippers; whether he was aware that, except through the agency of a private company, there was no regular service between Beira and Chinde; whether the Colonial Office had finally decided not to subsidise any British line; and, if the answer to the last question were in the affirmative, whether it was proposed to leave trade and commerce on the East Coast of Africa entirely in the hands of the Germans?
I am afraid that I can only refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Baronet the Member for Wandsworth (Sir H. Kimber) on the 17th of this month.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are gradually losing this trade?
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will look at the questions and answers of the 17th inst. he will see that the matter was fully dealt with on both sides of the House.
Wakfs Administration in Egypt
asked whether any steps are being taken to reform the Wakfs administration in Egypt?
On 28th December, 1905, a Decree was issued, modifying the composition of the Supreme Council for the administration of Wakfs, which was created by a Decree of May, 1901, but I have no more recent information on the subject.
Seeing that this is a most corrupt administration, will the Foreign Office bring their influence to bear on the Egyptian Government with a view to securing some reform?
reply was inaudible in the Gallery.
Have any complaints been received at the Foreign Office from the beneficiaries?
I am not aware of any.
Imports and Exports at Irish Ports (Report)
asked when the Beport on trade in imports and exports at Irish ports for the year ending 31st December, 1908, will be available?
The Department hope that the Beport in question will be ready in July or August.
Ireland (Grass Culture and Tillage)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state approximately the gross amount spent by the Department in the last completed financial year on purposes connected with or involving grass culture, and on purposes connected with or involving tillage respectively?
It is not possible to give the figures asked for, but it may safely be taken that the major portion of the expenditure is in connection with purposes involving or connected with tillage.
Irish Industries (Deputation to Continent)
inquired of the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), if he is now in a position to state briefly any definite results from the deputation which, with his concurrence, visited the Continent last winter in the interest of Irish industries?
The Department published a report on the visit of the deputation to Germany, which was circulated in Ireland. They understand that a number of centres are taking action in regard to it. No more definite statement can be made at the present time.
Ireland (Produce of Crops and Value)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state the method by which the rate of produce of crops per acre and their value are arrived at for the purpose of the annual Reports of the Department; whether they are merely guessed by persons not having to make their living by agriculture; and whether he will have the tables described in future as estimates unless practical steps are taken to make them accurate?
The average yields for Ireland of the produce of the several crops are calculated from returns furnished by the constabulary enumerators as to the yield of crops in each electoral division, this information being obtained by inquiries made direct from farmers in each division at the harvesting or raising of each crop. Returns as to yield are also furnished direct to the Department by their crop correspondents, and a series of weighed returns of crops is forwarded for each county by the county instructor in agriculture. The returns furnished to the Department are reviewed before compilation by the statistical inspectors, who are well acquainted by personal inquiry with the state of the crops in the several districts. Where estimates of value are placed on any crops these estimates are made directly by the Department after special inquiry as to the value to be placed on the season's crop.
Do the Department ever ask the corn buyers in the large corn markets in the different parts of Ireland as to what the return per acre, in their opinion, would be, and whether we are to understand that the enumerators referred to in the answer are the Royal Irish Constabulary?
There are more enumerators than the Royal Irish Constabulary referred to. Our correspondents and instructors are over the country and they gather information from every source that is possible.
Average Prices of Store Cattle
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) if he will state the average price of store cattle in May, 1909; the average price in May of the preceding 10 years; the percentage of difference this year; and how the latest reports compare with the June prices of the last 10 years?
I will, with the hon. Member's permission, publish with tonight's Votes a statement giving the particulars which he requires, so far as they are available. [ See Written Answers this date .]
Department of Agriculture (Ireland)
inquired on what date was the Annual Report of the Department for 1907-8 presented to the House; when was it handed to the printers; and what is their explanation of the delay in printing it?
The Annual Report of the Department was presented to the House "in dummy" on 15th December last. The final proof marked "for press" was sent to the printers on 27th May. There was a misunderstanding on the part of the printers as to the printing off, which caused some delay, but it is right to say that the Report is of considerable bulk and that the printing and binding of a large number of copies necessarily takes some time.
Old Age Pension Stopped (Strabane)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he can state why Mary Mulhern, Stragally, Strabane, who received the old age pension for over four months, has now been refused further payment at the post office at Commeen; and will he say whether she can renew her application and prove that she is over 70 years of age, if that be the ground of refusing her the pension?
Mrs. Mulhern was in the first instance granted a pension on the strength of a clergyman's certificate, no documentary evidence of age being available at the time. It was subsequently found that she was recorded as eight years old in the Census of 1851, and on a question being raised by the pension officer under the statutory regulations, the local pension committee decided on 5th May that Mrs. Mulhern was not entitled to pension, the payment of which was stopped the following day. Upon the facts as stated, it would be useless for her to put forward a fresh claim at present.
London Elections Bills
asked the First Commissioner of Works when he proposes to circulate the Memorandum detailing various sections of Acts of Parliament referred to in the text of the London Elections Bills, as promised on 4th May?
I presented the Memorandum for which the hon. Member asked on 4th May, the date on which I promised it, and it was circulated to all Members with the Votes within two days of that date. I will hand the hon. Member a copy of it immediately after questions.
Holbein's "Duchess of Milan."
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether, when he wrote to Mr. Sidney Colvin, of the National Art Collections Fund, informing him that the Government would themselves authorise the Treasury to contribute £10,000 of the amount required for the purchase of Holbein's "Duchess of Milan," he was under the impression that the picture was to be acquired for £61,000, which it was stated Messrs. Colnaghi had paid for the picture; whether, when he used the words at the suggested price and the amount required, he meant £61,000 or £71,000; whether his letter to Mr. Colvin was dated; if so, what was its date; whether he can account for its having been published without any date; and, if the letter was not dated, can he inform the House when, approximately or precisely, it was transmitted to Mr. Colvin?
My impression was that the demands of both the Duke and the dealer would have to be satisfied. My letter was written and dated on May 5th, and was delivered on that day by hand to Mr. Colvin.
May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will answer that part of my question that relates to the price. Was he under the impression that the suggested price was to be £61,000 or £71,000?
My impression was that the price was that arranged between the Duke and the dealer.
What was the profit derived by Mr. Colnaghi? Was there any attempt on the part of the Government to reduce the price?
I know nothing of the dealer's profits.
Small Holdings (Northants)
asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, if his attention has been called to the decision of the county council of the Soke of Peterborough refusing to approve of the purchase of 238 acres at Newborough, Northants, which has been recommended for purchase for small holdings by the small holdings committee of the county council; if he is aware that the purchase recommended by the small holdings committee was of land in the occupation of T. H. Vergette, who is already a large occupier of land in that district; if he is aware that the applicants for this land recommended for purchase by the small holdings committee have been approved by that committee, and that the Commissioner for the Board of Agriculture has inspected this land and recommended its purchase; and what steps the Board of Agriculture intend to take to carry out the recommendation of their Commissioner, Mr. Cheney, and approved by the small holdings committee and ignored by the county council?
The facts as to the action of the county council are as stated, and we are in communication with the council on the matter.
Will the hon. Member say whether the report of the Commissioner on this case was made in writing, and, if so, whether it was forwarded by the Board of Agriculture to the county council?
I have already said that the Board of Agriculture are in com- munication with the county council, and have asked whether they are prepared to carry out the recommendations of our Commissioner.
But what I want to know is whether the Board of Agriculture have forwarded to the county council a statutory report under the provisions of the Act?
Small Holdings (North Riding of Yorkshire)
asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, in view of the small progress made in bringing into operation the Small Holdings and Allotments Act in the North Riding of the county of Yorkshire, the Board will consider the advisability of appointing a Special Commissioner to assist the county council in the matter?
The reply is in the affirmative.
Horse Breeding in the United Kingdom
asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he can give any information as to the intention of the Board of Agriculture to encourage the breeding of horses in the United Kingdom, having in view the increase of motor traffic and the consequent discouragement to future horse-breeding?
I regret that I am unable as yet to add anything to the reply I gave to the hon. and gallant Member on this subject on the 11th ult.
Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act (Analyses)
inquired of the hon. Member for South Somerset whether his attention has been directed to a statement made by Mr. John Hunter, the analyst, under the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, appointed by the Board for a number of the districts in Scotland, to the effect that the regulations of the Board of Agriculture prohibit the analyst from stating the origin of the various ingredients or the fertilising value of the manures submitted to him, and that in a sample which had been sent to him in duplicate of a large parcel, and which was analysed by him, the nitrogen was derived from leather and shoddy, and therefore worth- less, but he was prohibited from stating this, and his analysis was in consequence misleading in the most important particular; and whether the Board of Agriculture will modify these regulations so as to ensure that the analyses made will give full and reliable information to farmers regarding the fertilising value of the manures and each of their constituent elements?
Our attention has been directed to the statement referred to by the hon. Member. The form of certificate prescribed by the Board's Regulations follows the terms of the Act which makes no distinction between nitrogens derived from different substances. The Board will consider whether the form can properly be altered in the direction suggested.
Prevention of Corruption Act (Scotland)
asked the Lord Advocate if he will state how many prosecutions have taken place in Scotland under the Prevention of Corruption Act, and how many convictions have resulted therefrom, and will he say in how many cases the law officers have refused to prosecute?
There has been, so far, one prosecution under the Prevention of Corruption Act. It resulted in a conviction. In one instance, on account of insufficiency of evidence, no proceedings were adopted.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say in how many cases the law officers refused to prosecute?
Yes; I have said so. In one instance the law officers refused to prosecute.
Ross-shire (Torridon Eviction)
asked the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that John Maclean, a cottar under the Act on the estate of Earl Lovelace, was on Monday, 7th June, evicted from his house at Annat, Torridon, Ross-shire, built by his father 90 years ago. In view of the fact that Maclean, who is 72 years of age, was unable to appear at the Dingwall sheriff court in answer to the summons owing to ill-health, and explained the circumstances by letter to the court, will he ascertain why an order for his eviction was forthwith issued; and, seeing that Dr. Cockburn, of Torridon, certified that Maclean was suffering from kidney disease and heart weakness, and that his removal might endanger his life, will he state why the sheriff's officers disregarded the medical certificate and demolished Maclean's house, with the assistance of the servants of Earl Lovelace, regardless of the man's sufferings?
Inquiry has been made into the facts of this case. I am informed that Maclean's cottage had been occupied by another cottar and his family, and that on 26th May, notwithstanding the landlord's remonstrances and the offer of compensation under section 9 of the Crofters Act, the then occupiers were turned out by Maclean, who went to live in the cottage himself. The landlord proceeded, in accordance with a previous intimation, to serve a notice of removal on Maclean, who was ejected in due course. I cannot find that there was any want of consideration on the part of the Court, which was not told that Maclean was unable to appear, and which gave him every opportunity of being represented by the agent for the poor. The ejection appears to have proceeded in a regular manner, and I am informed that, notwithstanding the medical certificate, Maclean showed no signs of illness.
In consequence of the unsatisfactory reply of the right hon. Gentleman and the inhuman treatment of this old man, who, I understand, was thrust out into the road at the risk of his life and had his house demolished before his eyes, I shall find it necessary to put further questions on the Paper.
British Steamship "Woodburn" and Russian Warship
inquired whether the recent incident in which a British vessel, the "Woodburn," was fired upon by Russian war vessels took place in Russian territorial waters or upon the high seas; and whether there is any treaty or convention in existence between this country and Russia enabling the Russian Government to make or enforce regulations to be obeyed by British vessels upon the high seas, other than the regulations for preventing collisions at sea established by general international agreements?
There seems to be no doubt that the incident in question took place in Russian territorial waters, but we have telegraphed for definite information on the point. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
May I ask if the hon. Gentleman will also inquire whether the depth of the channel was such that a vessel of the draught of the "Woodburn" was unable to get out at all without passing between the lines of the Eussian squadron?
We will also make that inquiry.
Expulsion of British Subject (Italy)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been called to the expulsion from Italy by public decree in November, 1907, of Mr. Victor Raffael, a manufacturer in Milan and a British subject; whether he is aware that no specific charge has ever been made or sustained against Mr. Raffael by the Italian authorities, even after the seizure and examination of his private papers; whether the suggested ground for his expulsion was that Mr. Raffael's operations in Milan had made him generally disliked, and that therefore the authorities had finally decided to expel him; whether he is aware that the Italian Government declines either to substantiate any charge against Mr. Raffael or to annul the decree of expulsion; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?
We are perfectly aware of the facts, and His Majesty's Ambassador at Rome has, under instructions, not ceased to do all in his power to obtain the revocation of the decree of expulsion which, owing to the strong feeling stated to have been roused against Mr. Raffael by his operations on the Bourse in Milan, was issued in November, 1907, under Article 90 of the Italian Law of Public Security. The evidence on which the action of the Italian Government was based has never been communicated to His Majesty's Government; but, as the result of repeated representations, the Italian Government have at length expressed their readiness, as an act of courtesy to His Majesty's Government, to permit Mr. Raffael to return to Italy and continue his business unmolested, provided his conduct gives rise to no further comment. They, however, absolutely decline to revoke the decree, in view of the entirely unfavourable reports with regard to Mr. Raffael which were received from the Prefect of Milan. The Italian Government appear to have acted within their legal rights in the matter, but we propose to make a further representation on general grounds.
Scotch Joint Stock Companies (Liquidation)
asked the Lord Advocate whether several liquidations of Scotch joint stock companies have been open for 30 years; whether he is aware that in some of such cases the creditors were paid in full 20 years ago; that in one case it has taken 16 years to liquidate a company which had not been in business 16 months; and whether he will take steps to secure the distribution amongst the shareholders of these companies of such of the assets as have not already been swallowed up in legal expenses?
I have no information on the points referred to in my hon. Friend's question. There are no steps open to me by which I can secure the object mentioned. Shareholders who desire a distribution of the assets of companies in liquidation with which they have been connected can themselves attain that end by application to the court.
Is there any limit to the time in which a limited company can be in the hands of the liquidator?
No, there is no limit.
Island of Lewis (Payment of Rates)
asked whether, in view of the decision of the Stornoway Sheriff Court and subsequent appeal, he is now in a position to state to what extent the proprietor of the Island of Lewis has been relieved of the payment of rates for which he was formerly held to be liable; and will a like percentage of relief be secured to owners by purchase under the Congested Districts Board Act or otherwise?
I am not yet in a position to state the prospective effect of the recent decisions upon the rates of either the proprietor of the Lews or other owners.
Scotch Education Rate
asked whether the balance of the Scottish Education Fund is by the Act of 1908 ordered to be so allocated as to give greater aid to those districts in which per head of the population the education rate is excessive as compared with the valuation of the district; whether, notwithstanding that the education rate in Stirlingshire is nearly 1s., and its valuation only £6 10s., whereas the education rate in Forfarshire is only 8d., and its valuation £7, the sum allocated to Stirling- shire with a population of 142,291 is only £13,688, while the sum allocated to Forfarshire with a population of 122,909 is £14,222; whether this allocation is in contravention of the letter and spirit of section 16, sub-section (2), of the Education (Scotland) Act; and what steps he intends to take to remedy this injustice?
I would refer the hon. Member to my answer to a similar question by the hon. Member for South Lanark on the 14th inst. The cost of the provision of secondary schools in Forfarshire in proportion to the population is greater than in Stirlingshire, and the number of small schools in which an addition to the minimum staff is provided is also greater. The extra cost under these two heads more than accounts for the difference in the sum allocated', while on the basis of population alone Stirling receives £6,043, as against £5,219 for Forfar, and on the basis of population multiplied by expenditure and divided by valuation Stirling receives £3,500, as against £2,392 for Forfar. The allocation under the Minute is not in contravention of either the letter or spirit of section 16 (2) of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, and it is not proposed to vary the allocation in any essential particular in the present year.
Has not the allocation made by the Scotch Department stereo typed previous grants made at the discretion of the Department, and is it not a practical violation of clause 15, which declares that sums for the Scotch education funds shall no longer be applied or distributed' as formerly provided for, in which case this is illegal and unjust?
Previous grants were certainly taken into consideration; that is not at all in violation of the terms of the Act.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why Forfarshire was treated so favourably by the Department?
For the reason I gave in the answer I have read.
Chelsea Embankment (Training Place for Motor Drivers)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the increasing use of Chelsea Embankment as a training, place for drivers of motor omnibuses and motor cabs; whether he is aware that the erratic driving of these cars is an annoyance and danger to the public; whether the use of the road for this purpose is permissible; whether the police are aware that many persons do not take out licences for driving until after they have undergone a course of lessons on the public highways; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
The Commissioner of Police informs me that Chelsea Embankment is not used as a training ground more than other thoroughfares. Police officers have been employed on this Embankment to keep observation, but no cases of erratic driving of motor omnibuses or motor cabs have been brought to their notice. There is nothing to prevent learners from practising in any thoroughfare, so long as they commit no offence, such as driving negligently or without licence. It is most desirable that before they begin to drive an omnibus or cab by themselves they should have had experience of driving, under proper direction, in the streets. I understand that a responsible instructor is invariably sent out with each vehicle. I am informed, further, that the motor cab and omnibus companies will not allow any person to go out with one of their vehicles unless he has obtained his driving licence from the county council; and that learners have often been stopped and asked for their licences, and in no case have they been found to be without one.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that motor cars containing five, six, and seven men are to be seen constantly driving in this locality?
No, Sir, I am not aware. Of course, learners must learn somewhere.
Owners of Land (England and Wales)
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will issue a Return, in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 335, of Session 1876, showing, with respect to each county in England and Wales, the number of owners of land of less than one acre and of owners of up to 100,000 acres and upwards, as in continuation of that Paper?
I am afraid I could not undertake to comply with this suggestion.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman give the return asked for in the second part of the question?
The Return to which this question refers cost £18,500 and nearly two years to prepare. I cannot undertake the preparation of a Return at such a cost as that.
County Antrim Postmastership
asked the Postmaster-General what decision has been come to with regard to the vacant postmastership of Ballintoy, county Antrim; whether the daughter of the late sub-postmaster, who is an applicant for the position, has had 18 years' service; whether, when the vacancy occurred in February last, the Belfast surveyor, knowing her qualifications for the position, at once placed her in charge of the office as acting sub-postmistress; and whether a number of the inhabitants of the district served by Ballintoy post office have twice memorialised the authorities in favour of the services of the acting sub-postmistress being retained?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask whether he is aware that there are other and better qualified candidates, one supported by a memorial; that the family mentioned in the hon. Member's question already hold nearly all the jobs in the place, including the posts of Bog Bailiff, Seaweed Bailiff, Rent Agent, Salmon Fishery Manager, Shipping Agent, and Harbour Paymaster, and are the local Pooh Bas; and that there is a strong feeling in the locality in favour of the principle of one man, one job?
The hon. Member is asking four or five Supplementaries.
The matter has not yet been decided finally; but in making an appointment the whole of the circumstances will be carefully considered. I have received memorials in support of two of the candidates.
Has there been any other applicant for this post office but the one?
I do not think I desire at the present moment to add anything to the answer I gave.
American Mail Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether the ss. "Cedric," of the White Star Line, on her last home-bound voyage called at Queens-town and landed passengers and mails; whether she, en route to Liverpool, called at Holyhead and also landed passengers and mails; whether this new departure in the matter of American mails transport to this country was done with the consent of the Government, and especially of the Post Office Department; whether it is intended to be continued; and, if so, with what object?
I understand that the steamship "Cedric" did call and land mails both at Queenstown and at Holyhead on her last homeward voyage from New York. This action was taken without any previous arrangement with the British Post Office, which has no control over the movements of steamships bringing mails to this country from the United States of America. The question of the continuance of this arrangement is a matter for settlement by the United States Post Office and the shipping company.
Will this new departure entail any alteration in connection with the present arrangements for the transmission of the mails by Queenstown?
I am only responsible, and have only control over the outer mails from Great Britain to the United States. The White Star line calls at Queenstown, and, as I understand, the "Cedric" did call at Queenstown, and also called at Holyhead.
Are the carrying companies at liberty to land mails at any port they like without consultation with the Postmaster-General?
I think that is so with regard to the homeward mails. That contract for them is not with the British Government, but with the Government of the United States, and having settled with the United States Government they are not bound to consult me, and I have no control over their movements with regard to the homeward mails.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman compelled to make arrange- ments for the receipt of these mails and for the landing of the mails? Can they land the mails without consulting him?
It is a question rather between the railway companies and the Post Office. I should take it we have power, but the arrangements are made much more on behalf of the railway companies to provide the trains rather than for the Post Office to arrange to accept them from the ships to the shore.
May I ask whether, in the event of these arrangements for the inward mails proving satisfactory, the right hon. Gentleman will consider the advisability of adopting Holyhead as a port of departure for the outward mails also?
The shipping ring wants that.
Finance Bill (Estate Duties)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Estate Duties are now being levied at the rates fixed by existing Acts of Parliament or at the rates as proposed in the Finance Bill; and, if so, under what authority the increased duties are being levied?
I may perhaps be allowed to refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend on the 10th instant to a similar question by the. hon. Member for the Strand Division, in which he stated that in connection with deaths on or after 30th April, 1909, Estate Duty is accepted only at the rates set out in the relative Budget Resolution.
Death Duties
Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer state whether annual allowances made, for example, from father to son, will come under the provisions of Clause 43 of the Finance Bill as regards the amount allowed during the five years prior to the decease of the person making the allowance?
Yes, Sir.
Holbein's "Duchess of Milan."
I desire to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, when he undertook to provide £10,000 out of public funds towards the purchase of Holbein's "Duchess of Milan," he did so on the faith of any statement that the picture was to be acquired for £61,000; whether, when he wrote to the director of the National Gallery, informing him that the Government were willing to provide a sum not exceeding £10,000, he was under the belief that the total amount required to purchase was £61,000; whether, when, as stated in his letter to the director, he discussed with his colleagues in the Cabinet the question of the proposed sale of Holbein's "Duchess of Milan," he informed them that the price for which it was to be acquired was £61,000 or £71,000; and whether, if he was under the impression that the total price was £61,000, he would have advised his colleagues to agree to the contribution of £10,000 had he been aware that the price was to be immediately advanced from £61,000 to £71,000 for the benefit of the owner or any intermediary?
further asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his letter to the Director of the National Gallery with reference to the portrait of the "Duchess of Milan" was dated; if so, what was its date; whether he can account for its having been published without any date; if the letter was not dated can he inform the House when, approximately or precisely, it was transmitted to the Director; and whether, looking to all the known circumstances attendant upon the purchase of the portrait of the "Duchess of Milan," the Government will appoint a committee to inquire into the transaction?
I will answer these two questions together. When my right hon. Friend on behalf of the Government informed the Director of the National Gallery that the Government were prepared to contribute a sum not exceeding £10,000 towards the purchase for the nation of Holbein's "Duchess of Milan" he did not do so on the faith of any statement, or under the belief that the picture was to be acquired for £61,000. My right hon. Friend's letter was dated May 5th, and was sent by hand to Sir C. Holroyd between the hours of 2 p.m. and 3 p.m. on that day. The Government do not see any grounds for appointing a Committee to inquire into the transaction.
Will the hon. Member put before the Treasury the advisability before paying over large sums like this of considering the extreme need there is in poor parts of the country for money which might be spent with a great deal more benefit to the people?
How can the hon. Member reconcile the answer he has just given with that which was given by the First Commissioner of Works?
I can see no discrepancy between them.
Does the hon. Member admit the specific accuracy of the statement with regard to the price?
I pointed out in reply to the original question that the Government had no concern what the price was.
Will he tell the House what profit was made upon it by Messrs. Colnaghie?
I have no information on that point.
Land Site Values
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the estimated site value of the land of a county in Great Britain and the name of the valuer or valuers employed; and whether he will have the details of such valuation and its cost laid before the House in the form of a Parliamentary Paper?
As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer informed my hon. Friend in reply to a similar question yesterday, it is not possible to give particulars of this kind until the valuation contemplated by the Finance Bill has been effected.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will inform the House what is the estimated number of persons who will be required under the Finance Bill to make valuations of the site value of their lands?
The information asked for is not available.
Not at the present moment or not at all?
Not at the present moment.
Can the hon. Member get the information?
I think it will be very difficult to obtain, but I will inquire.
Super-tax (Life Insurance Policies)
I desire to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in arriving at the total income for the purposes of Super-tax, that part which is represented by premiums paid on policies of life insurance will be deducible if less than one-sixth of the whole?
Yes, Sir.
Land Taxes (Suburban Estates)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the fact that many suburban estates are mortgaged to the extent of two-thirds of their value, and that the new Land Taxes would in such cases fall most oppressively on the small margin remaining to the freeholder, he will consider the advisability of either modifying the taxes in the case of encumbered estates or allocating them in such a way that they may be borne proportionately by all those who have an interest in the land on which they are charged?
My right hon. Friend cannot see his way to depart from the principles laid down in the Finance Bill, under which for the purposes both of total value and site value land is to be deemed to be sold free from encumbrances.
Definition of "Minerals" (Limestone and Brine)
asked if limestone would be classed as a mineral under the Finance Bill; and if brine, as found in Cheshire, will be included?
I must refer my hon. Friend to the reply which was given by my right hon. Friend on the 16th instant to the hon. Members for the Holborn Division and for Darlington.
Ungotten Minerals (Copyhold Land)
I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the case of copyhold land under which there may be minerals, it is intended to tax the ungotten minerals, considering that in the absence of any special custom of the manor the copyholder has no right to work them, and neither has the lord of the manor any right of access to them without the consent of the copyholder; and whether he is aware that in Derbyshire, Notts, and Yorkshire, and other parts of the North of England, this form of tenure largely prevails?
It is intended that minerals under these circumstances will be liable to duty. Any restrictions of access, where they exist in practice, will be taken into consideration in determining the value of the minerals.
Transfer Stamp (Conveyances)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will set at rest doubts in the legal profession by saying whether the proposed increase in the transfer stamp on conveyances will have effect when the Royal Assent is given to the Finance Bill, or at what other time?
The increase will take effect when the Royal Assent is given.
Beer Dealer's Licences
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether at present a beer dealer's wholesale licence must be taken out in order for the holder to be qualified to take out the beer dealer's additional retail licence; whether, under the provisions in the Finance Bill, the new off-retail beer licence can be held without the dealer's licence; and whether, if a licensee has to renew his dealer's licence on 5th July of the present year in order to continue to hold the retail licence, and after 30th September the dealer's licence ceases to be necessary to qualify for the retail licence, he will then be able to drop the dealer's licence, and will be allowed to claim a return of the proportion of the duty on his dealer's licence for the unexpired portion of the year?
The answer to the first two questions is in the affirmative. With regard to the third question it is provided in Clause 39 of the Bill that the licences granted oh 5th July, which I include the beer-dealer's licence and the beer-dealer's additional licence, when granted in England, shall cease to be in force on 30th September, and that the commissioners shall repay or allow to the holder a proportionate amount of the duty paid thereon. If, therefore, a beer-dealer takes out these two licences on 5th July, and does not desire to continue his beer-dealer's licence after 30th September, he can claim repayment of the portion of the duty paid for that licence.
Finance Bill (Land Distribution)
I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will specify the distribution in England, Scotland, and Ireland, respectively, of the two or three millions of acres of land which he announced will be included within the purview of Clause 1 of the Finance Bill?
further asked the right hon. Gentleman if he will state the basis of the calculation that only two or three millions of acres of land in England. Scotland, and Ireland will be subjected to valuation under Clause 1 of the Finance Bill for the purposes of the Increment Tax?
My right hon. Friend's statement was an expression of opinion in the course of Debate as to the amount of land in the immediate vicinity of towns, and as such, was necessarily approximate. The figures cannot be distributed between England, Scotland, and Ireland.
Has the Treasury given the total estimate?
I pointed out that my right hon. Friend merely gave an approximate estimate.
Yes, a very approximate estimate.
Is that estimate still adhered to?
Yes.
Intermediate Education Board (Ireland)
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether the income of the Intermediate Education Board in Ireland will be affected by the proposals with regard to Licence Duties contained in the Finance Bill; and, if so, whether any steps will be taken to ensure that the interests of Irish secondary education are not injured?
The statutory income of the Intermediate Education Board in Ireland is, under section 3 of the Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Act, 1890, derived from the Irish share of the Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Duties paid to the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account. These duties are the additional duties imposed upon beer and spirits by the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1890, and do not include Licence Duties. The income of the Intermediate Education Board is thus in no way dependent on the amount payable to the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account in respect of the proceeds of Liquor Licence Duties.
Irish Local Taxation Account
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is proposed to enlarge the income side of the Irish Local Taxation Account by assigning to it any part of the new or increased taxes or duties proposed in the Finance Bill?
My right hon. Friend proposes, as he stated in Committee upon the Finance Bill yesterday, to assign a portion of the proposed Land Value Duties to the Local Taxation Accounts of the three Kingdoms respectively.
I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the estimated increase in the yield in Ireland of the Liquor Licence Duties, as proposed in the Finance Bill, will be placed to the credit of the Irish Local Taxation Account and disbursed to local authorities in Ireland?
Any increase in the total yield of the Liquor Licence Duties resulting from the proposed increase of rates will under section 17 (3) of the Finance Act, 1907, be retained by the Exchequer, but the hon. Member will see from the provisions of Clause 68 (1) of the Finance Bill that the Local Taxation Accounts will be safeguarded from any loss which might otherwise arise through a diminution of the number of licences issued as a result of the enhanced duties chargeable.
Member for East Kerry (Mr. John Murphy)
I wish to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland if the hon. Member for East Kerry is one of His Majesty's justices of the peace for that county, and, if so, when was he appointed, who recommended him, what is the oath taken in such cases, and on what date was it taken by the hon. Member; if his attention has been called to the speech of the hon. Member for East Kerry, delivered at Kilmurray, near Castle Island, county Kerry, in which he recommended his hearers to prevent the eviction of a tenant named Richard J. Walsh, and incited them to resist the police and the under-sheriff in the execution of their duty; and will he say if the attention of the Lord Chancellor has been called to the language used by the hon. Member on that occasion, and, if so, with what result?
The hon. Member for East Kerry was appointed to the Magistracy for the County of Kerry in June, 1907. The appointment was made by the Lord Chancellor upon his own responsibility. The oaths to be taken by magistrates upon their appointment are those prescribed by the Promissory Oaths Act, 1868, but I understand that the hon. Member has not taken the prescribed oaths, or acted as a magistrate. I have seen a newspaper report attributing to the hon. Member the language referred to in the question, but I understand that he does not accept it. The attention of the Lord Chancellor has not been drawn to the matter.
Is there any possibility of the hon. Member for East Kerry giving us his interpretation of the speech lie delivered on that occasion?
Has the hon. and gallant Member given the hon. Gentleman any notice of this question?
Yes, I gave the hon. Member notice immediately I put the question on the paper.
Eviction of Mr. Walsh (Castleisland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the fact that the police arrested four men last week in connection with the recent attempted eviction of Mr. Walsh at Castleisland, county Kerry, is an indication that the police are to be offered to assist in Mr. Walsh's eviction on the next occasion, though since the last attempt the landlord was offered a substantial payment by the tenant and an agreement made to leave the settlement of fair-purchase terms to the Estates Commissioners, before whom the estate of Mr. Gun Mahony now is; whether he is aware that the present Lord St. Aldwyn refused police protection for evictions in Ireland 20 years ago when the landlord acted unreasonably; and if, having regard to the character of this eviction by which an old woman's life is endangered and the whole peace of the district upset by the action of the landlord, he will refuse the employment of the police in such cases?
Four men were arrested last week by the police in connection with this case, and were taken before a resident magistrate and bound to keep the peace. It is the duty of the police to afford the fullest possible protection and assistance to the sheriff in the execution of writs of ejectment. The law upon the subject has been repeatedly laid down by the High Court in the most unmistakable manner. It has been held that the Executive Government have no power whatever to withhold police protection and assistance from a sheriff in the execution of writs of the courts. I am informed that Walsh has now been evicted by the sheriff under police protection. I understand that Walsh's mother was allowed to remain in the house after possession was taken.
Land Purchase (Reinstatement of Miss O'Keilly)
I desire to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Miss Rose O'Reilly, who applied for reinstatement in her father's holding on the Wade estate, county Meath, has no brother alive, and that Philip O'Reilly, who was provided with a farm, and who is still living, cannot therefore be her brother; and, having regard to the fact that her claim is still unsatisfied, if he will cause further inquiries to be made in her case?
Some confusion appears to have arisen owing to the fact that three persons named Philip O'Reilly applied for reinstatement as evicted tenants. But each case was dealt with on its merits, and the decision of the Commissioners not to take any action on Miss O'Reilly's case was not based on her supposed relationship to one of these applicants.
Dirigible Balloons
asked the Secretary of State for War what steps have been taken to provide dirigible airships of large size for the use of the British Army; and when it is anticipated that the first of these vessels will be ready for trial?
The question of the provision of dirigible balloons of better and larger design than those already tried is under consideration, and at present I can give no information as regards the last part of the question.
Territorial Force (Armourer-Sergeants)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that armourer-sergeants in the Yeomanry and Infantry of the Territorial Force are considered unnecessary and are to be abolished, he can state what steps he is taking to insure the appointment of efficient armourer-sergeants to these regiments at short notice in case of war?
also asked the Secretary of State for War if the abolition of the armourer-sergeants in the Territorial battalions is for the purposes of war efficiency, and if he is aware that the Army Order proposes that the duties should be performed by the permanent staff, who are to be left at the regimental depot on mobilisation; is he aware that skilled mechanics have, in many cases, been trained at considerable expense for the performance of the duties of armourer-sergeant; and if he will give this subject further consideration?
In reply to questions Nos. 73 and 80, in view of the expert knowledge of the sergeant-instructors and of the fact that the armourers were never intended to effect more than minor repairs, it is not considered necessary to retain the post of armourer-sergeant in the Territorial Force. All important repairs will be carried out by the Army Ordnance Department.
Candidates for the Army
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, with regard to the present shortage of candidates for the Army, he will take advantage of the opportunity to increase the number of commissions given from the ranks, with a view also of benefiting recruiting?
The number of commissions granted from the ranks is not subject to any fixed limit. The candidate only requires the qualifications laid down in the Royal Warrant for Pay, etc., and the recommendation of his Commanding Officer and the General Officer Commanding.
Examination for the Army
asked whether this is the first occasion on which the qualifying examination for the Army has been accepted as sufficient for entrance to Sandhurst without any competitive examination; and whether such qualifying examination is on a level with the standard of the competition?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, the scope of the competitive examination is somewhat more advanced than that of the Army qualifying examination, which is intended to ensure that candidates have attained a fair standard of general education. My hon. Friend must be aware that competition following a qualifying examination always raises the standard of an examination.
Army Horses (Supply)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state if it is his intention to take any further steps towards ensuring an adequate supply of horses in case of war?
Yes, Sir. Progress is being made with a census of horses, which is a necessary preliminary to the formation of any scheme for the provision of horses on mobilisation.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are sufficient horses in Ireland, if he will pay for them?
Army (Foreign Meat Supply)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the speech of the officer commanding the Lincolnshire Imperial Yeomanry at the close of the annual training, in regard to the bad foreign meat issued to this regiment; whether he will take steps that, in future, nothing but home-bred and home-fed beef and mutton shall be issued; and if he will state how many resignations have been tendered owing to the bad feeling among the men?
I am not aware of the speech mentioned. The Yeomanry receive their meat supply under the same conditions as the regular troops. There is no intention of treating them differently from the regular troops, or of putting the country to the extra expense by limiting the meat supply as suggested. I have no information as regards the resignations, and it appears hardly credible that men would resign for the reason suggested in the question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman receive the names of those who are going to resign owing to the bad feeding?
Purfleet Rifle Range (Standard Rate of Wages)
asked the Secretary of State for War if he can now state whether the excavations at Purfleet, Essex, for the proposed new range have been carried out by sub-contractors who have paid less than the standard rate of wages; whether this had his sanction and was in accordance with the contract of the War Office with the contractors, Messrs. Kirk and Randall; and what steps he has taken in the matter?
The contract has been carried out entirely by the special contractors, Messrs. Kirk and Randall, and there are no sub-contractors. The workmen employed on the work have been paid the current rate of wages as provided in the Conditions of Contract.
Berne Copyright Convention
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received information to the effect that the German Reichstag, on 18th May, read a third time a Bill embodying the revised Berne Copyright Convention, but refused to adopt the proposed extension of the period of copyright to 50 years after the death of the author; whether he has received information that the Russian Duma has reduced their period of copyright; and, if so, to what period?
I am informed that the German Reichstag has adopted the revised Berne Copyright Convention without formulating any reservations, and that a decision as to the term of copyright has been postponed to a later date. With regard to Russia, my information is that a Copyright Bill has just passed through the Duma, and that the term of copyright fixed by it is the same as that previously granted, viz., the life of the author and 50 years.
Is there any change in the British copyright?
A Departmental Committee of considerable representative merit is now considering the whole question, and when its Report is received it will be considered, but no change in the law can be made without legislation.
Railway Amalgamation (Departmental Committee)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Members of the Committee nominated to report on railway company amalgamation have been selected as representatives of different interests, such as traders, agriculture, railways, companies, or as Members in no way connected with any industry in particular?
The Committee has been selected so as to secure a thoroughly fair and competent body, authoritative rather than representative in character, and small enough in numbers to facilitate rapid and practical work upon the important questions which are included in the reference. It will be open to the Committee to examine the evidence of representatives of different interests, including those enumerated in the question.
May I ask whether there is any body representative of agriculture whatsoever on the Committee, seeing that there are three gentlemen who have all been intimately connected with railway interests?
I have endeavoured to find a good, workable body which will give a valuable and authoritative report. I admit frankly that it is not representative of all the interests in the country which are involved in this great question.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the opinion of large numbers of agriculturists, committees of this sort, which we have had lately have had an overwhelming railway influence on them, and no real representation of the agricultural interest.
Pilotage (Departmental Committee)
asked the President of the Board of Trade, with reference to his statement last November that he had under consideration the question of instituting an inquiry into various matters affecting pilotage, whether he has yet come to a decision on the matter?
Yes, Sir. I propose to appoint very shortly a Departmental Committee to inquire and report as to the present state of the law and its administration with respect to pilotage in the United Kingdom and as to what changes, if any, are desirable. I am not yet able to give the names of the Committee, but I am glad to say that Sir Kenelm E. Digby, G.C.B., has consented to act as chairman.
Non-Statutory Companies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the advisability of amending the rules under the Gas and Water Facilities Acts so as to provide that non-statutory companies seeking Parliamentary powers should submit their books, showing the amount of their capital expenditure and the cost of manufacturing gas, for examination by an accountant appointed by the Board of Trade, whose report should be furnished to the local authorities?
The requirement suggested by the hon. Member is not imposed by the Standing Orders of Parliament in cases where the application for statutory powers is made by private Bill, and there does not, therefore, appear to be any necessity for making such a rule with regard to applications for Provisional Orders.
Baker Street and Waterloo Railway
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the insufficient lighting of the staircases on the Baker Street and Waterloo Railway; and whether he has any power to intervene for the convenience and safety of the public using those staircases?
I have not received any complaints in regard to this matter, but if my hon. Friend will let me know the particular station or stations he has in mind I shall be happy to cause inquiry to be made and to inform him of the result.
Railway Amalgamation (London and North Western, Midland and Lancashire and Yorkshire Companies)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the proposed agreement between the London and North-Western Railway Company and the Midland Railway Company, dated 30th July, 1908, and the proposed agreement between those two companies and the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Company, dated 18th May, 1909, require his sanction or confirmation by the Railway and Canal Commissioners before coming into operation; and, if the former, whether they have received or will receive his sanction?
I am advised that neither of the agreements referred to requires the sanction of the Board of Trade, or of the Railway and Canal Commission.
Finance Bill—Chairman's Rulings
I desire to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is his intention to move the closure on the Committee stage of the Finance Bill at this evening's sitting, and, if so, will the Motion apply to the whole Bill?
How can the right hon. Gentleman answer such a question? It must depend on the course of the Debate.
I ask it in view of the necessity for hon. Members on this side of the House to know what preparation to make for other Amendments.
Is it in order and in accordance with the rules and precedents of this House for the Chairman of Committees to accept a closure motion conditionally?
I respectfully decline to act as a court of appeal from the decisions of the Chairman of Committees.
Can I give notice of motion on the subject? It is a matter of very great importance.
If the hon. Gentleman wishes to give notice of a motion, all he has to do is to hand it in at the Table.
May I put my question differently. Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer tabulate on the Papers of the House his intentions with regard to the closure, so that we may know where we are?
The question of applying the closure does not depend entirely on the Chancellor of the Exchequer; the motion must receive the assent of the Chairman, under the conditions laid down by Standing Orders.
Public Rights of Way
In asking leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to public rights of way, I must confess it requires courage under present circumstances to introduce any measure relating to the land or even remotely associated with it. But this not a controversial Bill; it is of an entirely non-party character; it has already twice made its appearance in the present Parliament. It is promoted by the Commons and Footpaths Preservation Society, and its object is to amend and simplify the law relating to public rights of way. The Bill has already twice passed its second reading; it has been twice considered by a Committee upstairs. I need not therefore detain the House with any lengthy exposition of its provisions. As the law stands to-day it is necessary, in order to maintain a public right of way, either to show that the owner, when possessing an absolute title, has made an actual dedication to the public, or, failing that, that the public user of the right of way has extended over so long a period—beyond, in fact, living memory—as to make it practically certain that at some period anterior to living memory the way has been dedicated to the public. Under the existing law there has been much litigation, both costly and complicated, and it has led to no satisfactory result, because we have had varying decisions from the judges as to the amount and nature of the evidence necessary to prove the existence of a public right of way. It is proposed, on behalf of the Commons and Footpaths Preservation Society—a recognised authority on this subject—that the law should be amended in such a way that wherever the land over which the right of way passes—land or water—is in the possession of an owner with an absolute title—who is under no disability at all either to convey it or to make a grant to the public—the fact that the land has been used as a right of way for a period of not less than 20 years shall be absolutely conclusive of the right so to use it, and where the land is in the possession of an owner under some disability, subject, say, to some family settlement, or perhaps a lunatic, in that case the uninterrupted and unchallenged use for a period of 40 years shall be conclusive evidence in favour of the public right of way. I could cite numbers of instances to show the necessity for this Bill, and the reasonableness of the proposed change in the law, but I will not thus trespass on the indulgence of the House. I will simply repeat that this is an absolutely uncontroversial Bill, which has twice been read a second time and passed through Committee, and is now in the form in which it emerged from the last Committee. I commend it to the benevolent interest of all sections of the House alike, and especially to the unselfish public spirit of the land-owning interest, of which wre have been so frequently assured from unexpected quarters in recent Debates. I beg to move.
Leave given; Bill presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday, 28th June.
Finance Bill
Considered in Committee.—[ Third day .]
[Mr. EMMOTT in the chair.]
(IN THE COMMITTEE.)
Part I.—Duties on Land Values
Increment Value Duty
CLAUSE 1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this part of this Act, there shall be charged, levied and paid on the increment value of any land a duty, called Increment Value Duty, at the rate of one pound for every full five pounds of that value, and the duty or a proportionate part thereof shall become due—
( a ) on the occasion of any transfer on sale of the land or any interest in the land, or the grant of any lease (not being a lease for a term of years less than seven years) of the land; and
( b ) on the occasion of the death of any person dying after the commencement of this Act, where the land or any interest in the land is comprised in the property passing on the death of the deceased within the meaning of sections one and two of the Finance Act, 1894, as amended by any subsequent enactment; and
( c ) where the land or any interest in the land is held by any body corporate or by any body unincorporate is defined by section 12 of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1885, on such periodical occasions as are provided in this Act;
and on each of those occasions the duty, or proportionate part of the duty, due, so far as it has not been paid on any previous occasion, shall be collected in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
On a point of order. I wish to ask your ruling with regard to what occurred on Monday, when there were five Amendments standing in my name before the word "Subject." You ruled that those Amendments were out of order in that place, and must come after the word "land." I accordingly proceeded to the Table immediately and altered the phraseology of the Amendment. But by the closure that point in the clause was passed. Owing to the considerable disturbance in the House, and to the crowded Benches on this side, I was unable to raise this point last night. I wish to ask where the Amendments can now be placed so as to be in order?
If the hon. Member wishes to put them down in some other place I will consider whether they are in order.
moved to amend the clause by leaving out "one pound," and inserting instead thereof "five shillings."
My object is to reduce the amount which the Government propose to take from 20 per cent, to 5 per cent, of the increment value. I propose that not from hostility to the principle of this increment value tax, but I do it because I feel, and I think a good many hon. Members on this side of the House, as well as of course on the other, feel, that these land taxes are hitting land-owners, and particularly small land-owners, rather hardly. In the proposals which the Government are making we are hitting some men over and over again, and I think it is an indisputable proposition that, for example, the Death Duties do fall with much greater severity upon the owners of land than they do upon the owners of different sorts of property. I will not argue that—I should be out of order if I did—but I do submit to hon. Members that it is not possible for us logically to say that we propose to introduce a new system of taxation of hind upon the ground that land is a different form of property, subject to different incidence to other forms of property, and at the same time to contend that the taxes which we are putting upon land would not affect land-owners more severely than they do affect owners of other sorts of property. The land taxes which the Government is introducing, however defensible they may be in principle and however well they may eventually work out in practice, are an entirely new system in this country. I think I am accurate in saying that there is no country in the world which has any experience of similar taxes, and certainly not under precisely the same circumstances; but whether that is accurate or no, certain it is that in this country we have absolutely no experience of them whatsoever. We cannot tell what difficulties may arise in working them out; we cannot tell really how they will work out, and another very important matter is this, that we have no official Department which has any knowledge or experience of working them out. Although, of course, I have voted for the land taxes up to now, I am bound to say that I do foresee very considerable practical difficulties about putting them into operation, and it is quite certain that many more practical difficulties which the Government does not foresee, which nobody in the House can foresee, must arise in the working of them out. The result of that must be to put a very heavy burden upon the owners of this particular sort of property, who have got to bear the onus of working out the different principles at considerable cost of legal and other expenditure.
Take one instance alone, the mere question of valuation, of course, is going to be a very heavy burden upon the owners of land, and therefore the object of my Amendment is that when we are introducing a new system of this sort, it is only a right and proper policy that we should begin very tentatively — that we should make the burden as easy as possible to those upon whom we place it, and it may be in time—when we have worked out the system, when we have got it into practical working order—we may increase the tax, but at the beginning I do submit that it is a proper principle of legislation, when you are introducing an entirely new proposal, to do it tentatively and slowly, and make it as easy as possible to those upon whose shoulders you propose to place the burden. Of course, it may be that when we have experience of working out these taxes the result will be, what was said in the memorandum of Sir George Murray and the late Sir Edward Hamilton in their Report upon the Royal Commission on Taxation, that possibly the working out of the principle may have the result of demonstrating to the enthusiasts for such taxes some of the delusions under which they are suffering. I do not suggest, either one way or another, whether anybody is suffering under any delusions with regard to it or not, but I do say this: When you find officials of great experience, such as those I have mentioned, saying that that was one of the objects which induced them to recommend a small and tentative beginning in such taxes as this, it does seem to me that it is a principle which a responsible Government may very well adopt in carrying out for the first time such a scheme as this.
There is an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood) on rather a different principle than mine, but I hope that the Government may be prepared to accept either mine or one of the other Amendments, standing in the names of other hon. Members to much the same effect, because any one of them almost which is a mitigation of what I think is rather a severe tax to be placed upon land-owners would probably meet my views. The Amendment which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for New-castle-under-Lyme, and which I thought he was going to move, was to have a sliding scale, but I prefer the Amendment which I have put down, for this reason, viz., that we should be once for all beginning with a small tax upon existing owners. There has been a good deal of discussion in this House as to what the incidence of this tax will be. Some hon. Members have said that it will fall entirely upon the existing owners of the land; others have disputed that proposition. In the face of these different views, it is not for me, who have much less capacity for dealing with such matters as that, to dogmatise with regard to it, and I do not pretend to do so, but if it be the fact that this tax will fall entirely upon the existing owners of land, it does seem to me that, beginning slowly and placing a small tax in the first instance and leaving any possible addition to that tax to be imposed at such a time when the system has been worked out, would be the best course. The result of that would be that, at any rate, you would shift the burden of the tax from some of the existing owners, and cause it to be placed on those who had become purchasers in the meantime, and were existing owners at the time any additional tax was imposed. These, shortly, are the reasons which induced me to put down this Amendment in no hostile spirit, asking the Government to reduce the amount of the tax which they impose in the first instance.
I support the Amendment mainly on the ground that the tax is an immediate tax on the existing owners of land. It is not a tax upon the profit they may get in the future, but upon the present value of their property. The Attorney-General earlier in the Debates said what the Government were proposing to tax was only the unexpected increment. It was not the increment which was included in the natural expectancy, but a value between the original site value and the site value at the time the tax falls due, and all that will be allowed will be the expectancy which was an asset at the time the original site value was taken. But no allowance will be made for the natural expectancy that existed before this tax was announced on 29th April last, and the very fact of that announcement of the tax has already depreciated the original site value and has taken away from the existing owner a great part of that proper and natural expectancy which the Attorney-General alluded to and which is one of his assets, at the present moment.
May I illustrate this from an actual valuation which has been made on a building estate in the neighbourhood of London by a Fellow of the Surveyors' Institute? He takes the value of the 20 acres prior to the Budget at £13,639, and he takes the value subject to the taxation proposed by the Finance Bill at £11,818, leaving a loss, to the present owner of £1,821. Then, apart from that, there will be extra charges for Stamp Duty. It is worked out in this way. Before the Budget the estimate was this: The ground rents when the land was fully developed would come to £1,274. The capital value of these ground rents, when they were developed, multiplied by 20 would give a future total when fully developed of £25,480. Then you had to deduct from that the expenses of roads, £2,715, and surveyors' fees, advertising, etc., £765, leaving a net total value when developed of £22,000. He went on to estimate that an average of one acre would be developed annually, and that it would take 20 years to cover the estate. He therefore deferred the value for ten years, and considered that the owner should receive 5 per cent, compound interest during that time. The present value ten years hence is 6, and the net result is that he gets as the present value of that land £13,506; working backwards from the net total value when developed of £22,000. Then he has to add a little for the agricultural value of grazing for the time during development. Therefore he arrives at a total value of £13,639. Starting, again, with a net total value when developed of £22,000, and taking the incidence of the tax into account during the 20 years in which he estimates it would take, on exactly the same process and the same figures, he comes down to £11,818, a loss of £1,820, equivalent to over 13 per cent, of the present value. I do not think it is generally understood that the Government in this tax were reducing the; immediate actual value of property which might be expected to be developed to anything like that extent. By this tax you are hitting a great number of people more than you ever expected or even wished. I have a pathetic document, a petition to the Chancellor of the Exchequer from directors, officials, and shareholders in the British Land Company, Limited. These gentlemen say the company was founded in 1856 by the late Richard Cobden, M.P., John Bright, M.P., Samuel Morley, M.P., and other prominent land reformers, for the purpose of purchasing freehold land in large quantities and reselling it in small portions, thus enabling persons of limited means to become owners of land either for occupation or investment. They say they have constructed roads and sewers, and they have sold land to the value of about £5,000,000, and during the whole period of the existence of the company the dividend has averaged about 6.9 per cent. It seems that land reform may under some circumstances be a fairly profitable business. But during the last year they only earned about 3 per cent. They go on to say they are not holders-up of land, and they only want to diffuse more land. They say, "Cannot we have some return in the meantime?" and after all they have done and with the objects they have in view, could not their case meet with some special treatment? I think this is rather pathetic. Here are these men coming forward who have been engaged for many years in the work that the Government say they have now set their hands to. They say they have done it for a public end, they are not grabbers or withholders of land, and they are content with 6 per cent. They are none of your Tory oppressors, they belong to the true fold, and they come to the Chancellor and say, "In our special case have pity on us." After all, the land these gentlemen have bought they could have sold at a price, but they were not willing to sell it at a price which will not give them a fair return. I think the Chancellor ought to meet their case. I do not see how, in any rules of justice, whatever their purpose was in their original foundation, their case can be distinguished from that of many others who want only a decent return on their land, and who, if they can get it. will be perfectly satisfied with the 6 per cent, that this benevolent company have had to be satisfied with from the beginning.
I will conclude with a metrical comment on the effect of the tax which expresses the truth, though I believe the author will not claim very much for the diction:—
If the hon. Member had nothing better in support of his argument than the doggerel with which he perorated a very irrelevant speech, I think he might have spared my hon. and learned Friend his support. The hon. Member has given us a good number of figures in support of a general attack on the land taxes, but that is really not the point at issue. The point now is, given an Increment Tax, is it to be 20 per cent, or 5 per cent? It is an important matter from the point of view of those in favour of an increment that we should consider whether the percentage that the Government have decided to put in the Bill is a fair one. I want the Committee to bear in mind the fundamental fact that it is a percentage upon increment which practically dates from the coming year. My hon. and learned Friend laid down a proposition which I think is a fair one, that in a tax of this sort—it is not a question of principle, but it is expedient—that it should have a small beginning. That is exactly the case with a tax which begins at valuation to-day and taxes increment in future. If there is a growing increment it means that the percentage with reference to the present value would be much greater ten years hence than it would be next year.
Let me illustrate that by reference to Increment Taxes which are actually in operation, and which we had to consider very carefully before we decided upon the present tax. There are two methods of charging increment. One is to charge it in reference to the last price paid for the land, the second is to assume increment because there is a growing population, and the third is the method, which is included in the Bill, of valuing and charging the increment on that valuation. The two first methods are the methods adopted in Germany. For instance, in Frankfort, and I think it applies also in Hamburg, land which has not been disposed of for 20 years is assumed to have an increment. Land which has not been disposed of for 30 years is assumed to have a greater increment, 40 years still greater, and so on. Therefore, if you have not sold land which is not built over for over 20 years you charge an increment of 2 per cent., not upon the actual figure of the increase, but upon the whole purchase price; if it is over 30 years 3 per cent., and it runs up to 6 per cent., charged not upon the difference between two prices, but upon the whole of the purchase money.
Let me explain further. Whenever land is transferred in order to get the increment value they charge 2 per cent, as a basis upon the purchase price. Then they work out the increment in the way I have indicated on land which has not been sold for 20 years. What about land which has been sold within 20 years? They charge 2 per cent, in that case on the whole of the purchase money, and then they charge on the profit made, running up to 25 per cent., and that 25 per cent, is additional to the 2 per cent, on the whole of the purchase price. Compare that method of assessing increment, which has found so much favour in Germany owing to its complete success, with our proposals. The German method has been a complete success in the great cities of the German empire, and even the Conservative party there, I see, now urges it as an alternative to the proposals of the German Chancellor.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us to what German state he refers?
Frankfort is where the tax was originally imposed; then Hamburg followed the example; then Dresden and Cologne.
I think I may remind the right hon. Gentleman that this Increment Tax was first introduced at Kiauchau.
I suppose the hon. Member wishes to make a great point of this, but before he attempts a joke he ought to have some reference to the fact. As a matter of fact, it was not introduced at Kiauchau, and if he only knew something about Kiauchau he would know that the tax is on annual value, and is supported by the hon. Member's Friends.
The right hon. Gentleman has mentioned half a dozen towns. I wish to know whether the particular tax he mentioned is the tax on each of these half a dozen towns, and, if not, for which town is he giving the tax?
I am giving Frankfort. The tax varies undoubtedly in different towns, but I am giving the town where I think it has been longest in operation.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in giving these particulars, he could tell us if the tax began at that amount, or if it has increased?
I am not quite sure, and I would not like to answer off hand, but I will undertake to get that information for the hon. Member before the end of the Debate. At any rate, it has been a considerable success; it has brought in more money than even its founders expected. There is no opposition to it. The very difficulties which, I agree, any man looking at the proposition from the point of view of merely theorising might anticipate-difficulties in regard to the dividing of different kinds of property in land—were all difficulties which in practice were never experienced. I am simply now dealing with the question of the amount. I do not think it is an unfair thing to say that, if you start with a clean slate to-day, 20 per cent, should be charged. What does it mean? The hon. Member for the Central Division of Sheffield (Mr. Hope) gave us a good many figures with regard to a development company, and I thought that on the whole he submitted a considerable argument for what we propose, because, so far as I can see, the property is a very valuable one, amounting to £1,000 an acre. Well, that £1,000 an acre would not be taxed. We are not now discussing undeveloped land. We are on the Increment Tax. The hon. Member gave the present value, and asked, "Are you going to take away the present value?" Not a penny of it. [An HON. MEMBER: "The value will be less."] Really the hon. Member must know that cannot be the case. Let me show how it cannot. Say that the present value is £1,000, why should it be less if it goes up to £1,500? What is proposed is to take 20 per cent, of the £500, but we do not take a penny of the £1,000. In; valuing land what do you take into account? You take into account the prospective increase. You say, "This is a growing neighbourhood, and though at the present moment I may possibly not be able to let this particular plot of land for building purposes, I will be able to do so in the course of the next few years." You take all that prospective increase into account when fixing the present value, and, therefore, when you say that the Increment Tax should be 20 per cent, on the present value, you take into account the reasonable anticipation of increase. I hope that hon. Members fully understand that. You discount that anticipation before you charge a penny of your tax. Therefore, on the figures given by the hon. Member, not a penny will be taken under this Increment Tax. That is why we are anticipating a very modest yield for the first year and probably the second year. If we had a 2 per cent, tax on the purchase price, as they have in Frankfort, that would be a more considerable item.
May I ask if that is an Imperial or a municipal tax?
I shall be very glad to answer when we come to that question on the Amendment standing on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for London University (Sir Philip Magnus). That raises the specific issue, and we shall discuss it then, but for the moment we are discussing whether the amount of the Increment Tax shall be 20 per cent, or 5 per cent. If we took the German method it would give us far more. When you come to work out our proposal you will find that it is the most modest Increment Tax that has even been proposed. If there is going to be ah Increment Tax at all, I do not think it is an unfair thing, starting to-day, to look to the future, and to the natural, industrial, and agricultural development of the country, and the growth in population. I do not think so far as the future is concerned the community should oppose this tax on increment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer is in the habit of referring to the irrelevancy of speeches on this side of the House, and then allowing himself great latitude in the observations he makes. I do not in the least object to these excursions into foreign parts or foreign matters, but when he indulges so freely in the propensity to wander himself, I hope he will not be in a hurry to call other people to order if they occasionally stray from the subject in hand at the moment. Before I come to the main matter of the Chancellor's speech I must make an observation about his reference to foreign practices. I confess there is a certain amount of humour in the reference he made to the German Conservative Party, and their efforts to ascertain what are fair and legitimate methods of taxation. It is perfectly true that he, like other people, in discussing fiscal questions, does not confine his observations purely to Germany, but have regard to our Colonial kinsmen. The Chancellor of the Exchequer from time to time has cited an instance here and an instance there of taxation in a particular country, whether within the British Empire or not, which he considers relevant to, forming a precedent for, and, in some sort of way, a defence of the particular proposal we are then discussing. He makes the most confident statements as to the practices of these different countries. He never at any single point has examined the taxation of any one of those countries as a whole to ascertain how far their systems are comparable to ours, or how far the particular burden which applies to a particular form of property is or is not accompanied by exemptions in other respects, and whether it is or is not added to other heavy taxes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a good many statements, and he will permit me to say that they have not always been strictly consistent. I think the time has come when we are entitled to ask him to lay before the House in a form of a Memorandum the official information on which he bases his statements as to taxation, whether in regard to Land Duties, Income-Tax, Super-Tax, or other matters, in foreign countries, and in the self-governing Colonies. I will ask him to indicate in that Paper not merely the particular taxes which he cites, but the other burdens which are borne by the tax-payers, and the taxes to which these various taxes are added.
I think I should answer the right hon. Gentleman on that point. I shall be very glad to respond to his appeal about circulating papers giving information. And I shall in the paper give information with regard to kindred taxes in the Colony and in foreign countries.
May I ask on a point of order whether hon. Gentlemen on both sides are in order in discussing various other taxes besides the Increment Tax?
May I on the point of order point out that I am not open to the aspersion which the.hon. Gentleman makes. The observations which I am making are strictly relevant to the arguments adduced to the Committee on this Amendment by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I may ask, am I not entitled to the same indulgence as was allowed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
As I understand the circumstances, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the course of his reply, thought fit to defend himself by referring to what is done in other countries. That was within his own discretion to do. Of course, it does very much widen Debate, but that being the case, the right hon. Gentleman is in order in replying to the Chancellor on the same lines, and I consider that he has been quite in order so far.
I am obliged for that ruling. I am obliged also to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for promising to collect some of the information on which he has based his statement. I want to be able not merely to regard these taxes individually, for instance in Germany or in Frankfurt, but to look at the Increment Tax, say, in Frankfurt as part of the burdens which are borne by the citizens in Frankfurt. I want to know what the other burdens are, because that is material as regards the effect of these taxes. I will say no more about it, but I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make the information as complete as possible. It bears very much on the question we are discussing, because, as the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment (Mr. A. Herbert) pointed out, whilst we are obliged in discussing a particular clause and a particular Amendment to limit ourselves to what is immediately under discussion, we are obliged to have in the back of our minds all the time the knowledge that this is only one of many taxes. Many others are being imposed. Many of them are old, but still they are to be increased in this Budget. The greater number of these will fall with particular severity on the particular people who will be subject to the tax which we are now discussing. I was very glad to have that observation made from the other side of the House, because we have been trying to impress this on the Committee, with very little effect hitherto, that these taxes are going to hit not only the very big landlords, who, it is the practice to suppose, do not know what to do with their money, but they are going to hit, and very severely hit, the great bulk of the small landlords, the crippling or destruction of whose resources will make a most serious revolution for the worse in the whole life of our countryside. Under these circumstances, I should agree with the hon. Member, even if I supported the Land Tax on principle, that it was the part of wisdom and true statesmanship to make the beginning a very small one, and to learn what the results were before you sought to impose any considerable burden or to derive any considerable revenue from the tax. I need not say, objecting to the tax as a whole, I am strongly in favour of reducing the evil, as I conceive it to be, to the smallest possible dimensions, and of taking the lowest sum which we can persuade the Committee to adopt.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer had two arguments, and I think only two, in defence of the proposal to take no less a sum than one-fifth of any increment which accrued to the possessor of landed property. His first argument was that they had taken more in Frankfort and Other places. I venture to express the, belief, though I am not in a position to assert it with absolute confidence, that if you measure the burdens upon our land-owning classes here and compare them with the burdens of the land-owning classes in Germany you will find that the German land-owners are very much better off than ours, even without the imposition of these new taxes. It seems to me not to help us in the least. It is not a general tax; it is a local tax imposed on particular towns, and therefore, I presume, almost wholly on urban property, strictly speaking, while ours is a general tax. It appears to be no argument to cite the amount which that tax comes to in any one of those particular towns. That does not prove one way or another that it is either fair or unfair to impose the particular tax which is proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer here. His other argument was more serious. He said by the form which he had chosen he was bringing the tax into operation as gradually as possible. I quite agree that if you value the land as it was in the year 1800, and tax on the increment since then, of course that would be a much more outrageous proposal than the outrageous proposal which the Chancellor is actually making. But really does he himself believe that any opposition to these taxes will be allayed by saying that even if he had less regard to justice and equity than he has shown he could have got more by doing something more iniquitous than is proposed in this Bill? He said it was much more gradual than to take a proportion of the annual value. It is quite true that the increment under his proposal may come later than it would under such an alternative, but it will not be less. The time when the increment becomes payable depends on one or other of the conditions laid down in the clauses being fulfilled, but whatever increment has accrued in that time he will tax; it may be big or little, but the amount in any case will be one-fifth of what would otherwise have been the property of the private individual. He says that is really no injury to the private individual, because he starts with the valuation of the property at the present time, and that valuation discounts the future rise. He says you take into account the prospective increase in the present value. That is his answer to the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman that the imposition of this tax was a fine upon present possessors. I do not think it is any answer at all.
If you examine into it a little more closely you will see what will happen if you take a piece of property which is valued at the present day at £1,000. That £1,000 is not merely its actual developed value at this moment, or the value for development at this moment, but it includes its prospective increment. Its prospective increment occurs, we will assume, and the land is sold hereafter for £1,500 after the lapse of a certain number of years. That £1,500 is the then value of the present £1,000. If, as according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be the case, the present £1,000 takes account of the prospective £500 which will be added to this in the course of a number of years, the Chancellor of the Exchequer from that £500 deducts £100; or, rather, what he does is to give notice to every possible purchaser of land at the present time that when he comes to realise the prospective value which is now in the land he will be fined one-fifth part of that prospective value. Is not it perfectly obvious that the prospective buyer will say, under those circumstances: "The land which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was assuming worth £1,000 is no longer worth £1,000. It is only worth £1,000 to-day if within a number of years I can realise £1,500 for it. But as in that number of years when I do in fact get £1,500 from the purchaser he will take £100 from me, it will only be worth £1,400, and it is no longer worth £1,000 now." That is as plain as a pikestaff, or it ought to be as plain as a pikestaff, if I have been able to reason as clearly as I can see; and it strikes at the root of the whole tax, and destroys the principle on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer bases it. It shows he is doing what he himself professes he is not doing, and its particular relevancy to this particular Amendment shows that the present tax is a fine on the present possessor, and if you are going to impose a fine on the present possessor—a very improper proceeding, as I think—at any rate it should be the most moderate fine, and it ought not to be anything like this gigantic sum of one-fifth of the apparent increment value of the property. There are other considerations which might be urged in favour of the Amendment which the hon. Gentleman has moved. Many of them would be relevant to other portions of the Bill, and I will not delay the Committee any longer at this stage, but I submit to the Committee, if they have been good enough to follow me, that I have shown that of the Chancellor's double defence the foreign example teaches us nothing, because the conditions are not parallel—the other conditions are not reproduced here—and his second justification upon the merits is based upon an obvious misapprehension of what the results of his tax will be. Under those circumstances I shall certainly support the hon. Member in this Amendment, or any other which will be moved to reduce the burden.
I understand that at this stage no discussion will be in order upon the Increment, whether or not it is a desirable tax, or a justifiable tax, or whether or not it is a progression in the direction of dual ownership, or whether or not that is desirable, or whether the amount is so small that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can do without it this year, or whether the existence of taxes of which he gives examples in great towns in several foreign states and cities are relevant examples. I take it the question now is: Suppose the Increment Tax should be imposed, what is the proper amount? If that is so, that circumscribes one's remarks very much. Perhaps those who have not had an opportunity of speaking on the Resolution on the second reading may have an opportunity later on. But on the point of the amount which should be imposed, suppose that this tax is imposed, I do submit that 20 per cent, cannot be regarded as a small beginning. It seems to me a rather large amount, even though the increment be regarded—I do not know whether it can be so regarded—more or less as a windfall. Even from that point of view 20 per cent, seems to me a considerable amount to pay. We had a discussion raised the other night by the hon. Member for Downshire as to scholastic philosophers, for whom he professed profound contempt, and for whom I have little liking. But they regarded 10 per cent, of a man's income as a maximum amount that could be required as a counsel of perfection in the way of charity. If that be so, how can 20 per cent, be regarded as merely a small beginning of the new tax? I confess I cannot understand it; nor can I see when the land pays Income Tax, as it does under Schedule A. with very insufficient deductions, when it also pays on its capital every time there is a death, how it can be said that the land is not heavily taxed already in all ways? You are making a new tax of 20 per cent. on increment as a small beginning, and I have not seen sufficient proofs adduced in the House to establish that which I consider to be rather a large order is a very small beginning. The fact is the profits on land are very much less than the profits on any other industry, because there is no class of person who, like the landlord owner, is so much pressed for merely traditional and conventional reasons. I have heard it argued that the nominal rent roll of an estate is the income, whereas everybody knows that it has little relation to income; yet the greater part of the speeches for taxing land values have proceeded on that proposition. It is also taken for granted that increment is a natural attribute of land, whereas that is by no means the ease. We know the argument increment is a commonplace concomitant of building speculations, but I think if hon. Gentlemen who are under that impression will take the trouble to correct their impressions by the actual experience of speculators, even round about London, they will find that the robustness of their faith will receive a very severe shock. I will quote the statement of a great landlord in Wales, who said:—
"To tax many people who have bought laud with the intention of selling it at an enhanced value when you do not compensate them for any loss they make is hardly a fair tax, and the valuation of all the existing land in the country would be a very costly business."
I should think it would. Poetry, I gather, is rather out of fashion after the experience of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. James Hope), but I think the Government might say to the landlord on this occasion that he,
"Viewed his own feather on the fatal dart,
And winged the shaft which quivered in his heart."
The House will naturally ask who is this landlord whom I have quoted, and I think the House will feel the appropriateness of my quoting these passages when I state that they are the words of my hon. colleague in the representation of Montgomeryshire, who is one of the most generous and most popular landlords in all Wales. I must associate myself to a great extent with what he has said. I cannot myself understand how the site value is going to be separated from the increment.
The hon. Member himself laid down very clearly at the beginning of his remarks what is in order and what is not. He is now transgressing. He is discussing the tax whole, and the difficulty of arriving at what is to be taxed. We are now only concerned with the amount.
I am very sorry. I would only plead that my transgression seems to be rather in fashion. I express my regret. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, supposing the land was worth £1,000 now and the increment to be fixed hereafter was £500, the owner could only look upon the tax as relating to the increment. I cannot understand that argument. At any given time the value of a thing is what it will fetch, and one must regard the tax as spread over the whole amount. A man cannot possibly say, "So much of what I have is its natural value and so much is increment, and, therefore, I regard the tax upon one portion as being fair and exclude from my consideration the remainder." It seems to me that he can only take what is the amount at a given time and regard the tax as spread over that amount. I can hardly believe that any valuer would adopt as a principle of his profession the suggestion which is made in regard to this matter. German precedents are cited, but I do not see why we should make so much of them with regard to everything. If we are to take German precedent in regard to this tax, then German precedents are equally good as regards fiscal matters which no one here argues.
I have also brought with me a memorial referring to a land company, supported by highly respectable Liberal names—Cobden, Bright, and Morley—the business of which was to distribute land among the people. It urges that they should be exempted from the provisions of this measure as unjust and unduly prejudicing them in this laudable effort. All these taxes must hit small men just as much as great men, if not more. They must hit all those who are dependent in any way upon the land. They must make a very serious reduction in gardeners, game-keepers, and large numbers of people who are a permanent factor in rural life, besides the smaller investor in land companies and friendly societies. Not long since I remember being a guest in the house of a landlord. When I was going away he said, "Would you like a brace of pheasants?" I said, "Very much." It is always very desirable to say "Yes" on those occasions. He rejoined, "Well that is about all a landlord can do for you. If it had been £51 could not have done it." He preferred, therefore, the smaller amount suggested by the Amendment.
A very extraordinary statement was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the corresponding tax in Germany. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has been in the habit lately of quoting very largely from the experience of Germany with regard to various taxes, but, I think, if his remarks in that respect were carefully followed it would be found that every statement he has made has been inaccurate, and generally grossly inaccurate. The other day we were told that the Income Tax in Germany was 10 per cent. There is no Income Tax in Germany. There is an Income Tax in Prussia, and taxes are raised by the municipalities for various purposes. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has given us extraordinary figures, in which he said, first of all, that 2 per cent, was charged on the total value, and that the Increment Tax ran up as high as 25 per cent., which, he said, is higher than in this country. I took the trouble to go to the Library to get the very last Consul at report issued by the very able British Consul at Frankfort-on-the-Main. He is known to be one of those who has gone into the question of German taxation, and I find a direct reference in his report to this very tax. It shows that there is no justification whatever for the figures which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the House. There may have been some alteration since this last report was prepared. It is a quite recent report, having been issued during the last 12 months. If there has been an alteration since then, of course I am subject to correction. I can only presume that there has not been any correction. Instead of this heavy tax in Frankfort on increment value of 25 per cent, on the total value—
That is not what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said. He did not say 25 per cent, on the total value, but 2 per cent, on the total value, and 25 per cent, on the increment.
I will accept those figures. Such a tax exists in Frankfort and in Cologne, and a similar measure is now proposed for Berlin. According to the report, it is to apply retrospectively, but there is to be no tax on increment value if the increase does not amount to at least 10 per cent.
Is what the hon. Gentleman is reading in reference to Berlin?
This refers to Frankfort-on-Main and to Cologne, and it is proposed that a similar tax shall apply to Berlin. It only applies to increased value to the extent of 10 per cent. The rates are the following:—
"According to it the 'Werth Zuwachs Steuer' is to apply retrospectively, but is to be levied only when the increased value amounts to at least 10 per cent. The rates are to be the following when the last change lies no longer back than five years—5 per cent, of the increased value if latter amounts to more than 10 and up to 20 per cent.; 6 per cent, if more than 20 and up to 30 per cent.; 7 per cent, if more than 80 to 40 per cent: 8 per cent, if more than 40 to 50 per cent., and so on—1 per cent, for every 10 per cent, increase with a maximum of 20 per cent. If more than five years have elapsed since this last change of hands, but not more than 10—then two-thirds of the above rates are charged. In cases of unbuilt land there is a reduction of two-thirds if more than 10 years have elapsed since the last change of hands."
I think, in view of these facts, we ought to have some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman opposite.
The hon. Member, in moving his Amendment, as far as I can gather, announced two reasons in support of his Amendment, and the first was that the proposed Increment Tax will hit the small land-owner very hardly. That statement has been made by every Member who has followed on the same side, but not a single fact has been brought forward to prove the truth of that statement. I should like some Member who follows to give us a definition of what they mean by a small land-owner. I am perfectly well aware that there are a large number of persons who own a small amount of land. Figures were given by the Leader of the Opposition, to which, I believe, he did not pledge himself, to the effect that he considered that there must be approaching a million small land-owners in the country. We have not had any recent figures, but I have here the very latest available in the register of land-owners of the country. I find that the number of persons owning less than one acre was 852,000, while the total area owned by those people did not reach 200,000 acres, giving them an average of less than a quarter of an acre each.
I am afraid, in spite of the protestations on behalf of the small land-owners from several parts of the House, that there is a good deal more sympathy for that class of owner of whom I am about to speak. I find in that same return that the number of owners of 1,000 acres was 10,800, and in the aggregate they owned 52,000,000 acres. I find that the Members of the House of Lords own nearly 17,000,000 acres amongst them, and which has a rent roll of nearly £14,000,000 per year. It is not the small land-owner, owning less than a quarter of an acre, that is going to be touched by this Increment Tax. The 800,000 persons who were registered as small land-owners include almost entirely people who own one house, and the land is the land upon which the house stands. That is not the kind of land at all that is going to be hit by this Increment Tax. It is not land in which the property increases in value. It is admitted, I think, at any rate we will admit it, that this increment of the land value is a social product, and if it be a social product it should belong to the community. Therefore, it does not alter the question whether the increment is on land owned by a small land-owner or on land owned by a large land-owner. The small land-owner has no more right to appropriate something which is not the result of his own labour, but which is a social product, than has the large land-owner. Therefore, I maintain, if a small land-owner becomes subject to the Increment Tax, he ought to be taxed in the same proportion as the large land-owner. The other argument advanced by the hon. Member who moved the Amendment was that it would be very difficult to get to work the machinery for the finding out of this land Increment Tax. I do not see bow that touches the question of the amount of the tax, because the machinery will have to be the same whatever the amount of the tax may be. But surely if it is going to be so very difficult to establish the machinery for this tax, then we ought to get something worth all the trouble and expense that has been involved in establishing such machinery.
The hon. Member who followed the Mover of the Amendment went into figures with the object of proving that this Increment Tax is going to depreciate the present value of land. I want a clear definition of what is meant by present value. I do not accept the definition given by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer of the present value, because the definition given by him is not the present selling value of the land, apart from what an hon. Member called the natural expectancy. I think a more accurate definition of the present value is the value of the land for immediate use. Taking that as the basis, I say that the Increment Tax cannot depreciate it by a single penny, and I will endeavour to prove it by taking the illustration of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Austen Chamberlain). There is land, he estimates, worth £1,000 per acre, and some part of that £1,000 is due to that natural expectancy, an expectancy that might become worth £1,500 per acre. According to my definition of present value, that is not the present value at all, because the natural expectancy enters apart from that value of £1,000. What is this tax going to do? If that natural expectancy be realised, and there is the increase of £500, it is proposed to take £100, leaving £400 to the person who has invested in expectation of that natural expectancy. I suppose that there is very little agricultural land worth more than £100 per acre, so that there must have been a time when that land, supposed to have a value of £1,000 per acre, had a value, as agricultural land, of £100 per acre. Therefore, there has been an increase of £900—the social increment. We have already been told that that land has not been developed, and, therefore, this proposed Increment Tax does not touch that £900 at all, but leaves the fortunate owner or speculator in the possession? of that unearned increment of £900 per acre. If his future anticipation be realised, and if he gets £1,500 per acre, we have a total of £1,400 of social increment. And all that this Bill proposes to do is to take, for the use of the community who alone made that £1,400, the sum of £100. It is against a proposal of that kind that we have such protestations. I shall go into the Lobby against this Amendment, and I shall vote for the Bill, because I have no better alternative. If I had my way, as I have already stated, I should be perfectly willing to let the land-owner have that £900 of social increment, but I would take good care that not a penny of the social increment should go into the same pocket.
While I always appreciate the remarks of the hon. Member, I do not think, my hon. Friend who has moved this Amendment need be in the least disturbed by being lectured as to the birthright of his Liberalism by the hon. Member (Mr. Snowden). There are several Amendments down with regard to this duty. I have sympathy with my hon. Friend who has moved this particular proposal, though I should prefer myself the Amendment of the hon. Member for Suffolk (Mr. Everett), and a similar Amendment which is on the Paper in my own name, to reduce the Increment Duty from 20 per cent, to 10 per cent. The reason why I shall support the Amendment is because I think all these duties on land should be uniform in character. The Reversion Duty that has been adopted by the Government is to be 10 per cent., and I think that the Increment Duty at the commencement of the operation should be uniform with the Reversion Duty. I was strongly in favour myself of the proposal to charge the Reversion duty at the expiration of leases of 10 per cent. Whilst I do not agree with the way in which the Increment Duty is being applied by the Government, yet at the same time, as I have already pointed out in these Debates, I am in favour of the principle of Increment Duty, but I think that it should be uniform with the Reversion Duty. My reason for saying so is that the Reversion Duty is arbitrary in character, and can have no control upon that event taking place because it comes after a lapse of time. The Increment Duty is not arbitrary in character, and might be influenced by the effects of the tax itself. There is always a difference of opinion between different schools of thought in this House as to what effect a tax will have, and whether it be proportionately heavy on the owner, or the vendor, or the purchaser.
But of this there is no doubt: that if you impose the tax, it will have some embarrassing influence upon the negotiation of land. This is a tax which is to be imposed on the sale of land. If it is to be imposed at the very high rate, which is 20 per cent., I think it will have a certain influence in the direction of checking that free transfer of land which all of us on this side of the House desire to see facilitated as far as possible. It may have the effect, I cannot say, of the owner of the land being more reluctant to sell if he has to pay 20 per cent, than it would have had he less of an imposition placed upon him. Those who have spoken in these Debates have referred almost exclusively to owners of property who are going to sell. This Increment Duty of 20 per cent, is to have an equal effect upon those who grant leases above seven years. Those who own leaseholds are not confined to wealthy owners of this country. There are many people drawn from all classes of the community—small tradesmen, business people, professional people of all classes and description—who own this class of property, and who, in the ordinary course of events, will be granted new leases of their property. When these people begin to realise that they are going to fall into the net I am afraid this proposal will not be quite so popular as it might at first appear. It is very difficult for anyone in this House, especially on these benches, to take the position which I have felt myself obliged to take in regard to the Land Taxes. I have been charged with being an interested party, because I own property in different parts of the country. It is not for me to attempt to defend my position in that matter, but I hope I am able to look at the question from a broad point of view. For the last 20 years I have had intimate connection with the administration of this particular class of property, and therefore I have possibly a more intimate knowledge of it than many other Members. During those years it has been borne in upon my mind how extremely difficult and delicate the handling of this class of property is and how very cautious any Minister should be in making proposals which may disturb the tenure or conditions relating to it. With the best intentions in the world, unless he is very careful, he may hit a lot of perfectly innocent people without effecting the object he has in view, and more damage than advantage may accrue from his proposals. If the Increment Duty is to apply to leases, I would suggest that it should correspond to the duty applied to reversions.
We bad a discussion yesterday on the agricultural aspect, and, although the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised that agriculture should be protected in every way, I am certain that no words can be found in the English vocabulary which will really protect that class of agriculturist who owns or occupies agricultural land on the confines of small towns, and is only getting the agricultural rent for that property, but who under this proposal will have to pay 20 per cent, of the capital value on any increase in that property ih days to come. It is a very high tax, and it is to be applied to the rental; therefore it becomes all the more severe when that rental is still confined to agricultural conditions. I ask the Government, not in any sense of hostility to the proposal, favourably to consider (the modification of this tax from 20 per cent, to 10 per cent., and thereby to relieve not merely the great owners of property of the incubus which will undoubtedly fall upon them, but a vast army of small people who own the class of property to which I have referred.
The hon. Member for the Chippenham Division (Sir J. Dickson-Poynder) scarcely gave a very hearty support to the Amendment. He would fix the amount of the tax at a figure much above that suggested by the Amendment, because he would bring it to the level of the Eeversion Duty. There are others who take the view that the tax, because it is sound in principle, is therefore too small in amount. One hon. Member, for instance, suggested that when agricultural land is converted into building land the whole of the increment might be taken. If the principle of the tax is sound—that is to say, if it is a tax which may fairly and in justice be applied to all—it cannot be said that we are taking an undue amount. The hon. Baronet the Member for the Chippenham Division said that the tax might check transfer. Theoretically that is true. One can easily imagine cases in which an owner who is enjoying the whole of the increment might very well prefer to enjoy the annual benefit of the increment rather than part with it in return for a capital sum which would not represent its full value. To that extent I think my hon. Friend makes a just criticism. But when one looks at the matter broadly, I think that in the majority of cases the inducement which will operate most powerfully on the mind of any land-owner who finds a purchaser who will give him a considerable increment of value will be to take that increment, of which he will get four-fifths, rather than refuse it. Some of the proposals on the Paper suggest that the amount should be 50 per cent. If that suggestion were adopted, then undoubtedly the tendency to check transfer would pass from being little more than theoretical to being very substantial. But I think that the amount we are fixing will prevent any real practical detriment happening in the way of checking transfer. With regard to my hon. Friend's fear that the landlord would lose the benefit of so much of the increment as arises from his own improvements or repairs, I would point out that the landlord gets that allowed him by way of deductions under Clause 2, and those deductions will operate as a very substantial advantage to the land-owner when the tax comes to be imposed.
The hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Leverton Harris) charged the Chancellor of the Exchequer with never referring to foreign taxes without being inaccurate or grossly inaccurate; and he proceeded to give an illustration which, as he read it, seemed somewhat striking. I have examined the passage, and I find that it does not refer to the Frankfort tax at all. It refers to the proposal for an analogous tax in Berlin. The passage states:—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer forgot to mention that.
I think the right hon. Gentleman is not fair to the Chancellor of the Exchequer if. he suggests that he might have read it had he chosen to do so.
With out imputing anything more than negligent reading, such as the Attorney-General attributes to my hon. Friend, I say that the Chancellor of the Exchequer omitted a material fact. For the purpose of the comparison which he was making to show the moderation of his tax as against the severity of the Frankfort tax, it was material not merely to cite the highest point to which the Frankfort tax goes, but also to refer to the exemptions—which he did not do.
If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had compared all the details of the two systems of taxation he would have gone on to say that in Frankfort there are nothing like the deductions allowed which are suggested here, and that those deductions amount to a very much larger sum than 15 per cent. There can be no question at all, if hon. Members will consider the matter calmly when they have the documents which are shortly to be at their disposal, as to the much greater severity of the tax in Frankfort than anything we are proposing here. My right hon. Friend pointed out that the scale goes up to a maximum of 25 per cent, of the increased value, that scale being additional to the very heavy tax of 2 per cent, upon the total value.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us under what conditions the 25 per cent, is charged?
It begins, as I have said, with 2 per cent. In September of 1906 they thought they might safely lower the margin of the tax which was operating satisfactorily, and it was made 3 per cent, of the increase in value, if such increase amounted to between 20 and 25 per cent.; 4 per cent, if it amounted to between 25 and 30 per cent., and so on, up to 10 per cent., if such increase amounted to between 55 and 60. It was 1 per cent, for every 5 per cent, of the increased value up to a maximum of 25 per cent.
On agricultural land?
Well, of course, agricultural land in Frankfort is not very considerable, but if there is any agricultural Jand in Frankfort—
I want to be certain if I rightly understand that 20 per cent, of the amount charged in this Bill will not become payable until the inclement exceeds 100 per cent.?
I have not worked out the figures. I have given them, and the right hon. Gentleman can work them for himself; but when we speak of increment, let us just consider what for the most part comes under taxation here. This is an increment very largely upon what is called the conversion from agricultural to building land. There you are not dealing with increments of 10, 15 or 20 per cent., but of increments of 200 and 300 per cent. [Several Box. MEMBERS: "Why?"] You are dealing with agricultural land which may be worth about £10, and by increment becomes worth up to £400 or £500 per acre. Hon. Members are getting impatient. I think they ought to consider the figures instead of contesting them, because I cannot deal with half-a-dozen queries put from various points. That, I say, is a very material consideration I think I have, at all events, justified the accuracy of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not wish to say anything disagreeable, but I think the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Leverton Harris) can scarcely now justify the unqualified observations which fell from his lips. It is quite easy to make a mistake. I am very certain that I have made, and may make more, mistakes in the course of this Debate, and I have learnt, I hope, already in my experience to show some consideration for those who do not exactly see the correct meaning of things.
I now proceed with some of the criticisms made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. A. Chamberlain). I must confine myself strictly to those portions of his remarks relevant to the Amendment. He was dealing with the amount of the tax, and he rather objected to my right hon. Friend citing foreign examples by way of justifying the moderation of the amount. We are continually challenged to produce examples from any country which are in all respects equivalent to these proposals. Those we have quoted are much more severe, but I think we are not to blame for answering the challenge thrown out to us to deal with analagous taxes in foreign countries. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire said: "Of what value is this information—information which we were challenged to produce—unless we know exactly the other burdens which are cast upon the landlords in the same country?" That is rather a significant query. What does the right hon. Gentleman mean? Does he mean that in Germany landlords may very well stand an Increment Tax of this nature because they have the benefit of a high corn tax? I do not stop to argue that, or to consider the relevancy of it; but I am going to ask my hon. and right hon. Friends opposite if they are prepared to admit that if this country had the benefit of a corn tax this tax would then become just? That is an admission with which I think they might deal. Their objection to this tax is not so much one of principle as the fact that there are no compensations!
One other observation: the right hon. Gentleman said, and, in the main, quite correctly—it is his conclusion I quarrel with, and even then I think I would hardly quarrel so much as I would seek to qualify—"Obviously, the most important aspect of the Increment Tax will be its effect on the increase of value, because any sale of property (assuming, of course, that the tax is passed) will be discounted." That cannot be disputed. But let us take the tax in its working, because neither this nor any other tax is entirely regulated in its method and incidence by strict mathematical precision. The fixing of the original site value will be made by the owner of the land, checked by the Commissioners, or it may be, probably will be, fixed by the Commissioners rather than by the owners of the land. The interest of the owner is to have a high original site value.
Why?
Because he is exempt from the taxation.
Surely the interest of the land-owner, if you look at his general burdens, will be the other way. If the high valuation which the Attorney-General suggests is put upon his property, he will be taxed for undeveloped land, ungotten minerals, and Death Duties.
I am dealing with the increment value of the land—with the increment value of the taxes. It is quite true, as the right hon. Gentleman says, that the increment value of the taxes may in some cases, if he has to pay, be to the disadvantage of the landlord if he comes under the Undeveloped Land Duty; but the number of cases in which he will come under the Undeveloped Land Duty will be very small. There is only a case here and there. The cases where the increment values are got are very much more numerous. They are the ordinary cases. Therefore, in these cases it is clearly to the interest of the landlord, so far as this tax is concerned, to have a high original site value. I doubt very much whether, when the original site value comes to be fixed, that land-owners will use the argument put forward by the right hon. Gentleman. I doubt whether they will assent to the proposition that the tax ought to be discounted in the original site value. I should say that if they anticipate anything like an increment value they will say: "Oh, no; you Commissioners are depriving us of the benefits, because a high original site value exempts from taxation." I should think in the great majority of cases that if the landlord anticipates the increment he will know exactly what the amounts are, and he will desire that the Commissioners should not, in fixing the value, discount the operation of this tax. I quite agree in cases where he anticipates any increment very possibly other circumstances may operate in his mind, but he will be running some little risk in having a lower original site value in order to keep himself clear of the Death Duties. On the whole, there will be various counter-balances. I think I have met the criticisms as to the accuracy and fairness of the observations put forward by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I have confined myself strictly to the points raised, without development or rhetoric.
I am sure that all in this House will readily recognise that the Attorney-General has attempted to deal with the points presented against this Bill. He takes up the criticism which has been passed, and puts forward the best reply which can be made. But if the hon. and learned Gentleman fails to be very convincing, it is from no want of willingness on his part to meet the case brought against him. He has been trying to show that no criticism can legitimately be passed upon the, amount of this tax. That is a very important matter. The amount of the tax is often as important as the character of the tax. If often changes the incidence of the tax. It often has the greatest effect upon those very considerations which the hon. Baronet referred to before he sat down. It determines who pays; how people transact their business. So that the amount of this tax as a matter of fact is one which you must look into very seriously. The Attorney-General, as I venture to say, has given no defence of the amount of this tax. At the beginning of his speech, dealing with the hon. Baronet for a Division in Wiltshire, he made the extraordinary statement, "that logically it would be right to take the whole of this increment value." He confined the whole of his arguments to agricultural land, which is to be converted into building land. His remarks applied only to that. Yes, but in considering the amount of the tax, we have also to take into account the agricultural land which is turned into market gardening land, or into land of a far higher value. We were told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday that he did mean his Increment Duty to fall upon that method of conversion, as well as upon the method of conversion to which the learned Attorney-General confined his arguments. Our opinion as to which the learned Attorney-General Tax upon that conversion is known; but that it should be 4s. in the £ seems to us to be absolutely preposterous. At the present moment those who are endeavouring to develop intensive agriculture in this, country suffer very severely from the competition of those who have had a long period abroad. Now, when for the first time in the history of this country all those engaged in agriculture are making a united effort to substitute intensive culture for other methods wherever it may be profitably substituted, you come and cast this tax of 4s. in the £ upon that operation. I quite agree with the Attorney-General that these matters are not governed entirely by mathematics and economics. What is certain is that a number of us hold that a burden when hanging over an industry will not only damage the present owner, though it will damage him with regard to development, but will have much worse effect. The Attorney-General left that altogether out of his argument. He confined himself to the amount of these taxes in respect only to agricultural land which is converted into building land; he did not meet the whole issue. How did he defend the amount of the tax on that narrow basis? He said that logically you might take the whole, but I do not think that he is going to be very logical in this matter. The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) is logical, because he said you are entitled to take from the rich and not from the poor.
I do not think I said that logically you could take the whole. I pointed out that if you were logical and took the whole, what would happen, but I did not suggest that it would be either right or logical or practical sense to do so.
The Attorney-General Went on to give the reason why you could not take the whole, but he did certainly talk about taking the whole from the point of view of being logical. The taking of the whole, at any rate from the point of view of logic, commends itself to pure intellect. The hon. Member for Blackburn is logical in this matter. According to him you are entitled to take the whole, and that can only be done on the ground that entitles you to take this fifth part, and if that is not to be based upon logical grounds it must be based on the grounds of expediency. The Attorney-General does admit—and that is the only argument he used relevant to the amount, that if you take half that this amount would interfere with the transactions which he wishes to promote, namely, the free sale of land where there is a demand for land, and he said if you make one half he agreed with the hon. Baronet that all the evils he fears would be realised, but he did not give us one fact or a single argument to show that this very heavy tax of one-fifth would have this effect. We on this side of the House, and all those who study this question, are of opinion that this tax will fall to a large extent upon the present owner, and must also have a subsidiary and indirect result of making the land market tighter where you wish for a loosening of it. That really was all the Attorney-General said in reply to the hon. Baronet, logically you could not take the whole with certain evil results, but that taking one-fifth it will not produce these consequences. The Attorney-General then went on to reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Stepney. The hon. Member for Stepney pointed out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had omitted a fact, and an important fact to be found in connection with the increment taxation in Frankfort. The Attorney-General then attempted a far more difficult task, and that was to reply to my right hon. Friend's argument, the Member for East Worcester (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), namely, that we cannot be guided in this matter of increment taxation as to what occurs in this or that German town, unless we know the other burdens which have to be borne by the people who pay increment taxation there. The Attorney-General when he finds himself in a difficulty is very ingenious in discovering something else to talk about which never entered the mind of the speaker to whose arguments he is addressing a courteous though not very effective reply. He asked whether my right hon. Friends had in their minds the fact that the proprietors of land in Germany might be supposed to benefit by certain other taxes, for example, those on importation of corn into that country. In the same part of his speech he asked us how much agricultural land there was in Frankfort. Let me ask him in reply to that, how much of the agricultural land in Frankfort is corn land?
I know the city of Frankfort well. I lived there twice. It is a large expanding town, a great industrial centre, with a great residential quarter being built on the other side of the river, but no knowledge of the particular condition of Frankfort, or of the particular taxes paid in Frankfort are pertinent to this issue. The other burdens my right hon. Friend had in his mind are all the other taxes which a person has to pay, and which has also to be paid by Frankfort and the principal cities of the German Empire, and Imperial Germany as a whole. The Chancellor of the Exchequer after promising us every information promised that. The right hon. Gentleman was kind enough to promise us that, but I do not think he will find it very easy to supply it. A number of very important works have been written on this matter, and it is the hardest thing in the world to find out the exact total liability in this or that part of the German Empire. I read a translation of a German book a year or two ago, and the author of that book did not seem to be in the same position to make that promise that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made, but really if it could be done it is not necessary that it should be done, but what is necessary in considering the amount of these taxes is that we should consider it in relation to the other taxes which have to be paid in this country by those who are called upon to pay this new Increment Tax. We do not know all the burdens which fall upon the payers of the Increment Tax in Frankfort, but we know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that they do not pay all the taxes which fall upon those who will have to pay the Increment Taxes in this country. In his speech the right hon. Gentleman said the Conservative party in Germany is pressing for this Increment Tax as an alternative to some form of Succession Duty. Therefore we know that in Germany they do not pay both this Increment and Succession Duty, but we know from the right hon. Gentleman's Budget that in this country we are going to pay both the Increment and the Succession Duty.
In judging the amount of this tax we have to bear in mind the fact that it is a tax upon a peculiar form of property, and that those who own that particular form of property have to pay a tax not paid by the owners of other forms of property, and we have to bear in mind another consideration, namely, the occasion upon which it is imposed. The Death Duties cover death, because we were told that that was a convenient opportunity. This Increment Tax is to go on at death, but also it is to go on with every transaction of land that takes place. Now will that have the effect which the hon. Member for Blackburn seems to anticipate? He quoted figures to show that there was in this country a large number of people who own very small properties, and a small number of people who own very large properties. Who is going to be affected by the amount of this Increment Tax? Is it not certain that if the amount of this tax is so large as to interfere with transactions in the land market that those who can hold property of this description will be the very rich, and not the men of moderate or very limited means? That must be its effect in so far as it is safe to talk at all of the result of a tax. It is not very safe to speculate upon the result of a tax. A tax is always an empirical operation, and that is why we think you should begin with small taxes instead of beginning with a large one. We hear certain generalisations about taxation. We are often told the consumer pays the tax. I know you could not draw an exact analogy between this direct tax falling upon capital value and annual taxation, but there is some analogy. It may be true that the amount of the tax upon spirits decides who pays it, and it is not improbable by any means that the amount of a tax on land will decide who ultimately will have to bear the burden. We know that in the one case the amount of a tax upon spirits decides whether the person who manufactures the spirit pays or whether the consumer pays. I believe it will be found that the amount of this taxation on land will make the consumers pay instead of those who are in a position to hold up land and to acquire more land. The heavier you make the tax the greater value you will give to the land, and the more certain you will be to hit the poor man and the more rapidly you proceed with that process which is proceeding far too rapidly in England, namely, those who own land pay these burdens and have to sell land. To whom do they sell it? Not to the small owner of the agricultural garden. In the case of agricultural land they sell it to the man who has made a large fortune. In the case of the limit of land round towns they will sell it for villas or gardens or pleasure residences; otherwise they cannot realise the amount necessary in order to support these new burdens. In speaking in these Debates on these taxes we are as much entitled as any one else to form the best opinion we can, and we so far agree with hon. Gentlemen opposite as to believe that you cannot put a heavy burden upon any article or upon land without embarrassing the sale of land and the letting of land, and without ultimately making land the property of those who are rich and not entirely dependent upon it, and in that way, so far from accomplishing, actually frustrating the objects with which the tax is imposed.
It is not difficult to produce a strong logical argument against a tax of this kind, that is, against a tax on special forms of property, and I am bound to say it is just as easy to produce an argument to show that all future unearned increment ought to go to the community which created it. I do not know that we shall get much further if we are to adhere altogether to logical lines of argument. It will be difficult to tell the House whether a tax rests more, upon justice or upon expediency; probably it rests upon both. I think in this matter the assumption which is fair is that all forms of property should bear taxation with some regard to their power to contribute, in the same way as you tax persons having regard to their ability to contribute; then some additional taxation may fairly be levied off land values. The ability of different forms of property to contribute varies just as much as the ability of different persons. If money comes in from minerals, as a rule it comes in with a rush, and from land values not quite so easily, but yet comparatively easy. If money comes in from agriculture, then it comes in with very considerable difficulty. I do not think the tax which the Government propose is excessive—in fact, I think it is a moderate and defensible proposal, and I doubt whether any of the new taxes which it is proposed to levy under the Finance Bill can be defended with greater force than the tax which is under discussion. In this country the subject has been thoroughly examined, and there is nothing new about this proposal. Long before I entered the House of Commons this subject had been considered by the Committee upon the Housing of the Working Classes, and that Committee recommended that there should be a 4 per cent, tax upon the capital value, and the proposal under discussion is very moderate indeed as compared with that.
I do not know that there is any need to complain of this proposal in the light of former proposals. In the levying of this tax existing values have been respected, and I see no reason why a considerable proportion of the new taxation should not be raised by a tax of this kind. As regards agricultural land, I agree with what has been said against its inclusion, and after what the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated last night I do not know that there is very much left in the way of prospective revenue from the increment upon agricultural land. As regards this particular proposal, I hope the Government will adhere to it, because it is the fairest way of raising money from a form of property which certainly ought to contribute. It cannot be argued that any individual owning a very large amount of land should have the power to put into his own private pocket the additional value given to that land by the growth and industry of the community as a whole. That wealth certainly ought (to belong to the community which has created it. Under these proposals the revenue from the unearned increment is to be taken by the State, but, according to the statement made last night, some proportion of it will be returnable to the community. My proposals on this subject have always been based upon the assumption that the community should enjoy the revenue; but I agree there is a great deal to be said in favour of raising the money by Imperial machinery, and certainly the proportion which it is proposed to take now cannot be regarded as excessive. It would be interesting to know what revenue is likely to accrue from this tax. In regard to some of the taxes it would be very difficult to give any reliable estimate as to what they would bring in, but it ought to be comparatively easy to estimate the value of this tax, and that would be much to the advantage of this discussion. The effect of this proposal being extended to agriculture is one which might be specially disadvantageous in the case of Scotland, where the system of 19 year leases is characteristic. Nevertheless, I intend to: give my support to this tax.
I shall support the Amendment before the Committee because I believe in the principle that the less the tax the less objectionable it must be. I am opposed to the whole principle of this Increment Tax on land, and for that reason I shall support this Amendment. Anyone who has listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) must realise the force of what has already been contended, namely, that this particular tax is distinctly a Socialistic measure, and goes a very long way in the direction of Socialistic legislation. The only real argument I have heard used in favour of this tax is the one used by the hon. Member for Blackburn, that where an increment value has been created by the act of the community, the community has a right to take some share of it. That argument was strongly used by the Prime Minister, the Lord Advocate, and the Attorney-General, and if it can be fairly contended that the community has a right to take a portion of the increase of value which it has created, I can see no other logical conclusion than that the community has the right to take the whole of it. I would like to ask the hon. Member for Blackburn whether in this respect he sees any distinction between property in land and other forms of property which would prevent him taking the whole of the increment that may equally arise from the action of the community. If those premises are admitted, the whole case is entirely given away to Socialism, and that is my reason for supporting the smaller tax suggested by this Amendment instead of the larger one proposed in this Bill.
I am grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for informing us that he is prepared to place in our hands definite and distinct facts connected with the taxation of land in other countries, more particularly with regard to increment value. Although I ventured to dispute the figures given with regard to taxation in Frankfort, I have felt the extreme difficulty myself of arriving at any accurate estimate of the condition of taxation in any part of Germany. I tried to get a German book on this subject. The title of the book is not very inviting, Werthzrwachsstener . Before I got halfway through it I was so confused as regards the general incidence of different forms of taxation in Germany that I almost despaired of arriving at any definite conclusion. I think I may say this tax in every part of Germany is one which is levied primarily for municipal purposes, and I am not aware of any part of Germany in which this tax is levied for the purpose of the Imperial Exchequer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer does not expect to get much for the Imperial Exchequer out of this tax, and he has suggested that half of what he does get should go to the local authorities. Therefore, there does not seem very much reason why he should not yield to the desire of many hon. Members on both sides of the House and abandon altogether the consideration of this particular tax.
The hon. Member seems to be speaking against the tax as a whole. The Question before the Committee is whether the tax should be £1 or 5s.
With regard to the example of foreign countries, we have heard a good deal from the other side of the House in reference to the effect of this tax in America, and the Government themselves have issued a White Paper which contains a great deal of information upon this particular tax. I also found in the Report of the Taxation of Land Values Select Committee a very, interesting memorandum from Mr. Archibald Clark, lecturer in the University of Edinburgh, who gave some very valuable evidence before that Committee. He said:—
"With regard to America the tax system of the United States is not one—"
Is the hon. Member not transgressing your ruling?
Yes, I think he is, and the hon. Member must really keep to the Amendment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the example of foreign countries, and he used it as a strong argument in favour of this tax.
I simply referred to Frankfort as a precedent purely on the question of amount, and I gave the amount from 1, 2, 3, 4, up to 25 per cent.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer would obviously have been out o of order if he had gone further.
Then the learned; Attorney-General must have been out of order in referring to the German system of; taxation.
The Attorney-General also referred to the amount, and the hon. Member must also confine himself to the question of the amount.
As regards the amount of this tax, I must admit that the figures of the Attorney-General were more definite than those of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But as regards the success of the tax it is stated in this Memorandum that
"It is of course, too early as yet to say whether this fresh attempt to seize by taxation the unearned increment in site values will be more successful than the old. Berlin's attempt to put the provision for a Building Site Tax into practice turned out a fiasco."
With reference to land values your tax must be so high as to be oppressive or so small as to be hardly worth levying. That is my general ground. It would have been desirable if the right hon. Gentleman had given the House some indication of the gross amount he expected to derive from this 20 per cent. tax. If we had any idea of the gross yield we should be able to state something more definite with reference to this Amendment. But we are entirely in the dark on that point. I do not propose to say more than one word with regard to the Frankfort case to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. When he refers to a 2 per cent, charge that appears to be equivalent to the amount of the halfpenny tax under this Bill. As to the case suggested by the Attorney-General, and it is a case which: seems to have been the only one in the minds of the framers of this Bill, where there has been an increase from £10 to £400 in value, the taxation would be, under the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, £79, and in the case of Frankfort £82. I have said that the rate appears to be oppressive, and I have in my mind such a concrete instance as this. It is very easy to talk about unearned increment as something which ought to be taken by the community. You may find two persons starting in life with £10,000 each. One man buys farming land, and the other stocks and shares. Ten years afterwards they both die. In each case there is a large augmentation in the value of their investments. The farming lands are valued at £15,000, while they were bought for £10,000, and the stocks and shares are worth £15,000, neither profit being due to action on the owners part, but to the action of the community in which they lived. You take from the owner of the farm £1,000 more than is taken from the owner of the stocks and shares. That is a concrete case. It will give you some idea that the yield from this tax will be enormous, (but its operation will be oppressive.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer seems to assume that the increment on land will be continuous from one year to another. Of course, he has some reason for assuming that there will be, in most cases, an increase in the increment, for the simple reason that he has pitched upon a moment when land values are extremely low. In the same way you may say that there will be an increase in the price of Consols, but you could not have said that ten years ago, when the price of Consols was at £100. To tax the increment of land—
I think the hon. Gentleman is going beyond the scope of the Amendment, and I must ask him to address himself to the Amendment.
I intended to criticise the remark made by the right hon. Gentleman, but I will not proceed in my line of argument. The tax is made extremely low because it is quite evident that if you made the tax a very big one it would be one step towards the nationalisation of the land, which, I think, is not at present in the mind of the Government. The best way in which I can show that the amount of the proposed tax is too high is by quoting the fact of one or two definite cases which I have here, and which, I think, will show beyond dispute that a great hardship will be inflicted on comparatively small holders of land. Here is a case of a house in South Kensington, which was taken by the present holder in 1882 at a rental of £265. The amount which he gave for reversion and other things, and the amount which he spent in permanent improvements, made a total of £6,220. The rent was £265 a year, but during the last few years the rent has fallen to £180. The House is now valued at £2,800, whereas it cost, as I have said, £6,220. In the course of 20 years, supposing that the house recovered to £6,000, the owner would still lose, if he sold it for that amount, £220, o and yet you propose—
The hon. Gentleman is not confining himself to the Amendment.
I have not the slightest intention of raising the question of increment. What I was going to point out was that the owner would lose £220, and with the taxation that would be put upon the house of another £640, the loss to him altogether would be £860. There is another case which will show how heavily this taxation will fall upon small men. I have a letter from a working man who mentions a case which to him is singularly hard and almost tragic. He puts it very clearly. This letter was written on 7th May. He says in it that "out of my wages, which never were very large, I saved £300 and bought some building land. I can neither let the land now nor sell it, though I would be glad to do so at a loss. But I cannot. I have evidently made a bad bargain, but I am to pay the tax on this land. I have no means to develop it, and I should have been better off if I had thrown my savings into the gutter." Surely this is a curious inducement to thrift? I think that that case is merely one of a very great number of similar cases to be found all over the country, and it seems to me especially hard, when you consider that in many instances you would be almost forcing these men to make bricks without straw, because they will have to find the money to pay this 20 per cent, duty at a time when there is nothing coming in and when their property is probably not realisable.
I wish heartily to support the Amendment that the tax on unearned increment shall be five and not 20 per cent. I absolutely disagree with the view that extra taxation should be placed upon land over and above any other kind of property—and not only on land owned by rich people, but on land owned by poor people. In my own Constituency I have a considerable number of freeholders who either inherited from their fathers or have from their own savings, bought small plots of land—10, 15, or 20 acres in extent—around some of the thriving and prosperous seaside towns on the West Coast. They are working men. There is nothing of the millionaire about them. They grow vegetables for the consumption of visitors in the big towns. You are going to ask their successors to pay 20 per cent, on the increment value of the land. Is that fair? Is it right treatment of deserving and hard-working men. I thought hon. Members opposite, by their Small Holdings Act, wished to encourage the yeoman class; that they wished to encourage the man who, with the assistance of his family, cultivate these small holdings; Yet they are now proposing to put a tax of 20 per cent, upon them, whereas, if anything, some of the existing taxation ought to be taken off. I do protest, whether a man is poor or rich, against his being taxed because he happens to own land. After all, this unearned increment is only a deferred form of Income Tax. The Income Tax at the present moment averages about 5 per cent., and the hon. Member who moves this Amendment proposes that this deferred Income Tax on land should be 5 per cent., and not 20 per cent. I heartily agree with him. Let us have the same taxes on land as on other forms of property. If a man invests in stocks and shares and makes a successful gamble, he is only charged 5 per cent. Why, then, if he makes a successful gamble in land, should you charge him 20 per cent.?
rose in his place, and claimed to move: "That the Question be now put."
Question put: "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 276; Noes, 117.
Division No. 185.] AYES. [6.35 p.m. Agnew, George William Berridge, T. H. D. Chance, Frederick William Alden, Percy Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Cheetham, John Frederick Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Black, Arthur W. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Armitage, R. Boulton, A. C. F. Cleland, J. W. Ashton, Thomas Gair Bowerman, C. W. Clough, William Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Bramsdon, T. A. Clynes, J. R. Astbury, John Meir Brigg, John Cobbold, Felix Thornley Atherley-Jones, L. Bright, J. A. Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Brocklehurst, W B. Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Brooke, Stopford Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Cory, Sir Clifford John Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Barker, Sir John Bryce, J. Annan Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Crooks, William Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Burnyeat, W J D Crosfield, A. H. Barnes, G. N. Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Crossley, William J. Barran, Rowland Hirst Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Dalziel, Sir James Henry Barran, Sir John Nicholson Byles, William Pollard Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Cameron, Robert Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Beaumont, Hon. Hubert Carr-Gomm, H. W. Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Beck, A. Cecil Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Bennett, E. N. Cawley, Sir Frederick Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-shire) Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Roe, Sir Thomas Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charlés Lamont, Nerman Rogers, F. E. Newman Dobson, Thomas W. Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Rose, Charles Day Duckworth, Sir James Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Acerington) Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lehmann, R. C. Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Dunn, A, Edward (Camborne) Levy, Sir Maurice Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Lewis, John Herbert Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Erskine, David C. Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Essex, R. W Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Esslemont, George Birnie Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Seaverns, J. H. Evans, Sir S. T. Lyell, Charles Henry Seely, Colonel Falconer, J Lynch, H. B. Shackleton, David James Fenwick, Charles Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Ferens, T. R. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Sherwell, Arthur James Ferguson, R. C. Murro Mackarness, Frederic C. Shipman, Dr. John G. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Maclean, Donald Silcock, Thomas Ball Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Snowden, P. Freeman-Thomas, Freeman M'Micking, Major G. Soames, Arthur Wellesley Fuller, John Michael F. Mallet, Charles E. Soares, Ernest J. Fullerton, Hugh Manfield, Harry (Northants) Spicer, Sir Albert Gibb, James (Harrow) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Stanger, H. Y. Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Steadman, W. C. Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Massie, J. Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Glover, Thomas Masterman, C. F. G. Strachey, Sir Edward Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Micklem, Nathaniel Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Middlebroak, William Summerbell, T Grayson, Albert Victor Molteno, Percy Alport Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Mond, A. Taylor, John W. (Durham) Griffith, Ellis J. Money, L. G. Chiozza Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Hall, Frederick Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Morrell, Philip Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morse, L. L. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Thomasson, Franklin Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Myer, Horatio Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Napier, T. B. Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Hart-Davies, T. Nicholls, George Thorne, William (West Ham) Harvey A. G. C. (Rochdale) Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Tomkinson, James Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Norman, Sir Henry Touimin, George Harwood, George Norton, Captain Cecil William Trevelyan, Charles Philips Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Nussey, Thomas Willans Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Nuttall, Harry Walsh, Stephen Haworth, Arthur A. O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Walters, John Tudor Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. O'Grady, J. Walton, Joseph Hedges, A. Paget Parker, James (Halifax) Wardle, George J. Helms, Norval Watson Partington, Oswald Waring, Walter Hemmerde, Edward George Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Pearce, William (Limehouse) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Henry, Charles S Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Waterlow, D. S. Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Pickersgill, Edward Hare Wedgwood, Josiah C. Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Pirie, Duncan V. Weir, James Galloway Higham, John Sharp Pointer, J White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Hobart, Sir Robert Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Hohhouse, Charles E. H. Price, Sir Rcbert J. (Norfolk, E.) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Holland, Sir William Henry Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Wilkie, Alexander Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Radford, G. H. Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) Rainy, A. Rolland Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Horniman, Emslie John Raphael, Herbert H. Williamson, A. Illingworth, Percy H. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Rendall, Athelstan Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Richardson, A. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Winfrey, R. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Roberts, G. H (Norwich) Wood, T. M'Kinnon Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Roberts, Sir J. K. (Denbighs) Yoxall, James Henry Jowett, F. W. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Kekewich, Sir George Robinson, S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Kelley, George D. Robson, Sir William Snowdon Joseph Pease and the Master of King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Elibank. Laidlaw, Robert
NOES. Anstruther-Gray, Major Bertram, Julius Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Arkwrlght, John Stanhope Bignold, Sir Arthur Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Ashley, W. W. Bridgeman, W. Clive Channing, Sir Francis Allston Balcarres, Lord Bull, Sir William James Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Baldwin, Stanley Burdett-Coutts, W. Clive, Percy Archer Banbury, Sir Frederick George Carlile, E. Hildred Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Banner, John S. Harmood- Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) Castleraagh, Viscount Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Cave, George Craik, Sir Henry Beckett, Hon. Gervase Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Cross, Alexander Dalrymple, Viscount Kimber, Sir Henry Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Dixon-Hartland, Sir Frederick Dixon Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Salter, Arthur Clavell Doughty, Sir George Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lockwood, Rt Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. Du Cros, Arthur Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) Faber, George Denison (York) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Faber, Capt, W. V. (Hants, W.) Lowe, Sir Francis William Starkey, John R. Fardell, Sir T. George MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Fell, Arthur M'Arthur, Charles Stone, Sir Benjamin Forster, Henry William M'Calmont, Colonel James Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Gardner, Ernest Magnus, Sir Philip Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Marks, H. H. (Kent) Thornton, Percy M. Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Tuke, Sir John Batty Goulding, Edward Alfred Mildmay, Francis Bingham Walrond, Hon. Lionel Gretton, John Newdegate, F A Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Oddy, John James Whitbread, S. Howard Hamilton, Marquess of Pauiton, James Mellor Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Harris, Frederick Leverton Peel, Hon. W. R. W. Wills, Arthur Walters Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Percy, Earl Winterton, Earl Hay, Hon. Claude George Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wortiey, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Heaton, John Henniker Pretyman, E G. Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Randies, Sir John Scurrah Younger, George Hill, Sir Clement Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Remnant, James Farquharson Houston, Robert Paterson Renwick, George TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir Hunt, Rowland Ridsdale, E. A. A. Acland-Hood and Viscount Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Valentia. Kerry, Earl of Ronaldshay, Earl of
Question put, "That the words 'one pound,' stand part of the clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 327; Noes, 117.
Division No. 186.] AYES. [6.45 p.m. Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) Cameron, Robert Evans, Sir S. T. Agnew, George William Carr-Gomm, H. W. Falconer, J. Alden, Percy Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Fenwick, Charles Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Cawley, Sir Frederick Ferens, T. R. Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Chance, Frederick William Ferguson, R. C. Munro Armitage, R. Cheetham, John Frederick Ffrench, Peter Ashton, Thomas Gair Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Flynn, James Christopher Astbury, John Meir Clancy, John Joseph Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Atherley-Jones, L. Cleland, J. W. Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Clough, William Fuller, John Michael F. Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Clynes, J. R. Fullerton, Hugh Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Cobbold, Felix Tnornley Furness, Sir Christopher Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Gibb, James (Harrow) Barker, Sir John Condon, Thomas Joseph Ginnell, L. Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset) Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Gladstone, Rt Hon. Herbert John Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Barnes, G. N. Cotton, Sir H J. S. Glover, Thomas Barran, Rowland Hirst Cowan, W. H. Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Barran, Sir John Nicholson Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Crooks, William Grayson, Albert Victor Beauchamp, E. Crosfield, A. H. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Beaumont, Hon. Hubert Cross, Alexander Griffith, Ellis J. Beck, A. Cecil Crossley, William J. Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Bennett, E. N. Cullinan, J. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Berridge, T. H. D. Dalziel, Sir James Henry Hall, Frederick Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Black, Arthur W. Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Kardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Boulton, A. C. F. Delany, William Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Bowerman, C. W. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Bramsdon, T. A. Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Hart-Davies, T. Brigg, John Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Bright, J. A. Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Brocklehurst, W. B. Dobson, Thomas W. Harwood, George Brooke, Stopford Donelan, Captain A. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Duckworth, Sir James Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Haworth, Arthur A. Bryce, J. Annan Duncan, J. Hastings, (York, Otley) Hayden, John Patrick Burke, E. Haviland- Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Hazleton, Richard Burnyeat, W. J. D. Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Hedges, A. Paget Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Erskine, David C. Helme, Norval Watson Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Essex, R. W. Hemmerde, Edward George Byles, William Pollard Esslemont, George Birnie Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) Mooney, J. J. Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Henry, Charles S. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Worrell, Philip Seaverns, J. H. Higham, John Sharp Morse, L. L. Seely, Colonel Hobart, Sir Robert Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Shackleton, David James Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Myer, Horatio Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Hogan, Michael Nannetti, Joseph P. Sheehy, David Holland, Sir William Henry Napier, T. B. Sherwell, Arthur James Hope, John Deans (Fife, West) Nicholls, George Shipman, Dr. John G. Hope, W. H. B. (Somerset, N.) Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Silcock, Thomas Ball Horniman, Emslie John Nolan, Joseph Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Illingworth, Percy H. Norman, Sir Henry Snowden, P Isaacs, Rufus Daniel Norton, Captain Cecil William Soames, Arthur Wellesley Jardine, Sir J. Nussey, Thomas Willans Soares, Ernest J Johnson, John (Gateshead) Nuttall, Harry Spicer, Sir Albert Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) Stanger, H. Y. Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Steadman, W. C. Jones, Leif (Appleby) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.) Stewart-Smith, D (Kendal) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Strachey, Sir Edward Jowett, F. W. O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Summerbell, T Joyce, Michael O'Grady, J. Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth) Kavanagh, Walter M. O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Kekewich, Sir George O'Malley, William Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Kelley, George D. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Parker, James (Halifax) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Kettle, Thomas Michael Partington, Oswald Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Thomasson, Franklin Laidlaw, Robert Pearce, William (Limehouse) Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Thorne, William (West Ham) Lamont, Norman Philips, John (Longford, S.) Tomkinson, James Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Pickersgill, Edward Hare Toulmin, George Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Pirie, Duncan V. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Lehmann, R. C. Pointer, J. Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Power, Patrick Joseph Walsh, Stephen Levy, Sir Maurice Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Walters, John Tudor Lewis, John Herbert Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Walton, Joseph Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Wardle, George J. Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Radford, G. H Waring, Walter Lundon, T. Rainy, A. Rolland Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Raphael, Heibert H. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Lyell, Charles Henry Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Lynch, H. B. Reddy, M. Wateriow, D. S. Macdonald, J R. (Leicester) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Wedgwood, Josiah C. Macdonald, J M. (Falkirk Burghs) Redmond, William (Clare) Weir, James Galloway Mackarness, Frederic C. Randall, Atlielstan White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire} Maclean, Donald Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Richardson, A. White, Patrick (Meath, North) MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Ridsdale, E. A. Whitehead (Rowland) MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) M'Kean, John Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Wilkie, Alexander M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) M'Micking, Major G. Robinson, S Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Mallet, Charles E. Robson, Sir William Snowdon Williamson, A. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Roche, John (Galway, East) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Roe, Sir Thomas Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Massie, J. Rogers, F. E. Newman Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Masterman, C. F. G. Rose, Charles Day Winfrey, R. Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Wood, T. M'Kinnon Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Yoxall, James Henry Micklem, Nathaniel Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Middlebrook, William Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Molteno, Percy Alport Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Joseph Pease and the Master of Mond, A. Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Elibank. Money, L. G. Chiozza
NOES. Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Bull, Sir William James Dalrymple, Viscount Anson, Sir William Reynell Burdett-Coutts, W. Dickson, Rt. Hon. Charles Scott Anstruther-Gray, Major Carlile, E. Hildred Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon Arkwright, John Stanhope Carson, Rt. Hon Sir Edward H. Doughty, Sir George Ashley, W. W. Castlereagh, Viscount Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akcrs- Balcarres, Lord Cave, George Du Cros, Arthur Baldwin, Stanley Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.) Everett, R. Lacey Banner, John S Harmood- Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Faber, George Denison (York) Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Clive, Percy Archer Fardell, Sir T. George Beckett, Hon. Gervase Cochrane, Hen. Thomas H. A. E. Fell, Arthur Bertram, Julius Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Forster, Henry William Bignold, Sir Arthur Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Foster, P. S. Bridgeman, W. Clive Craik, Sir Henry Gardner, Ernest Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Lowe, Sir Frarcis William Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. Goulding, Edward Alfred MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Gretton, John M'Arthur, Charles Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) Gulnness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) M'Calmont, Coicnel James Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Hamilton, Marquess of Magnus, Sir Philip Starkey, John R. Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Marks, H. H. (Kent) Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Harris, Frederick Leverton Mason, James F. (Windsor) Stone, Sir Benjamin Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Hay, Hon. Claude George Newdegate, F. A. Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Heaton, John Henniker Oddy, John James Thornton, Percy M. Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Tuke, Sir John Batty Hill, Sir Clement Peel, Hon. w. R. W. Valentia, Viscount Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Percy, Earl Walrond, Hon. Lionel Houston, Robert Paterson Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) Hunt, Rowland Pretyman, E G Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Randles, Sir John Scurrah Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Kerry, Earl of Rawilnson, John Frederick Peel Wills, Arthur Walters Kimber, Sir Henry Remnant, James Farquharson Winterton, Earl King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Renwick, George Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham) Ronaldshay, Earl of Younger, George Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Salter, Arthur Clavell A. Herbert and Mr. Whitbread.
moved to leave out the word "full" before "five pounds" and to insert "complete."
This is only a drafting Amendment, and I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there is any special reason, which we may learn from the Attorney-General or himself, for the word "full," and whether it would not be better to put in the word "complete"? I know a great many hon. Members on this bench would like to have the word "full" left out altogether, but, as far as I am concerned, I shall be quite satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman leaves out that word and inserts "complete." Some very eminent authorities think that "complete" is a better word than "full."
I am very glad the hon. Member said that this was a drafting Amendment, and I do not know that there is any difference between the two words. There may be a difference between a full man and a complete man, but I do not think there is any between a full pound and a complete pound, and is the hon. and gallant Gentleman would have more confidence in the clause with the word changed I have no objection.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, as a matter of construction, what is the difference between a full £o and a complete £5?
The idea is that it must be an entire £5, and that the sum must go right up to £5. As the right hon. and learned Member knows very well, this is purely a matter of drafting, and the draftsman is of opinion that "full" or "complete" is necessary. I do not know whether it is necessary, but I am sure there is no difference between "full" and "complete."
May I ask why it is that the word "full" is not put in before "pound"?
That does not arise on this Amendment?
Amendment put, and agreed to.
moved to leave out "five," and insert "ten."
The effect of my proposal will be that this tax, instead of being 20 per cent, will be 10 per cent.
On a point of order, I submit that the last decision was upon the question whether it should be 20 per cent. The whole Debate turned upon it, and I submit it is not competent to raise the same issue again in another form.
Even if it is possible to vote on this reduced sum, I submit that it is not possible to adduce a fresh set of arguments without repeating some of the arguments which have been used for the last two hours.
The real point is this. We have decided, of course, that "one pound" is to remain in. But I do not think we have decided that the proportion must necessarily be 20 per cent. At the same time, I think it would be rather an outrage on our ordinary Parliamentary procedure to discuss again the whole question of principle that we have already discussed. On the other hand, I think it is perfectly permissible to advocate this particular proportion as against the proportion that we have decided to refuse.
I suggest, as the Committee has rejected 5 per cent, as against 20 per cent, a halfway house of 10 per cent. That is a good English way of settling matters. We split the difference. A good many Members will think that in dealing with a new and experimental tax this is quite good enough for a start. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, in introducing these proposals, said the tax will this year produce probably only £50,000, so that my proposal will simply reduce the estimate for one year by £25,000.
I am in this difficulty as regards this Amendment. I do not see what possible arguments I can advance which would not be a repetition of the arguments advanced before. The hon. Baronet the Member for Chippenham (Sir J. Dickson-Poynder) argued in favour of 10 per cent., and his arguments were exactly the same as those advanced by my hon. Friend. He was replied to by the Attorney-General, and I do not see that I can advance any fresh argument without falling under the rules against repetition. I think 20 per cent, is a perfectly fair tax having regard to the fact that we are beginning the valuation next year, and that the increment will only start from a valuation which will come into operation next year. Therefore it must necessarily be a very small tax in the beginning, and it will not mature to the full 20 per cent, for a good many years to come.
I only wish to say that for the reasons we have already expressed my hon. Friends and I will support this Amendment, just as we supported the last.
May I ask with regard to the £50,000 that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned in his Budget speech as the estimated yield of this part of the tax, what is the gross figure?
I understand the main reason the Government have advanced for justifying this figure of 20 per cent, is the analogy of foreign countries, where they say the tax is sometimes as high as 25 per cent. But that really is no guide to us unless we know what the whole burden on the taxpayer in the foreign country is.
It would not be fair to go into this whole argument again. I felt that this was a proportion which ought to be at any rate decided by the Committee as against the smaller proportion which the Committee decided not to have. If the Noble Lord discussed the whole Question on the lines on which he appears to be going it would not be a proper thing.
Am I to understand that the House is at liberty to vote on the Amendment but not to discuss it?
If the Noble Lord had been here and heard what I said he would agree that what I said was perfectly right and proper. To a large extent this proposal was argued in the previous discussion, but I felt that this was a distinctly different proportion, which some Members might want to vote for rather than the smaller proportion that we voted on before.
I am quite sure the supporters of this tax would be extremely disappointed if the Government were to yield. They consider that this proportion is quite small enough.
The hon. Member is discussing the whole Question. It is rather a question of 10 against 5 than against 20.
Question put: "That the word 'five' stand part of the clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 293; Noes. 127.
Division No. 187.] AYES. [7.12 p.m. Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.) Barlow, Percy (Bedford) Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Agnew, George William Barnard, E. B. Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Alden, Percy Barnes, G. N. Bryce, J. Annan Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Barran, Rowland Hirst Burke, E. Kaviland- Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Armitage, R. Bennett, E. N. Burnyeat, W. J. D. Ashton, Thomas Gair Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford) Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Asqulih, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Astbury, John Meir Black, Artnur W. Cameron, Robert Atherley-Jones, L. Boland, John Carr-Gomm, H. W. Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) Boulton, A. C. F. Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Bowerman, C. W. Cawiey, Sir Frederick Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Bramsdon, T. A. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Brigg, John Churchill, Rt. Hon Winston S. Barker, Sir John Brocklehurst, W. B. Cleland, J. W. Clough, William Hyde, Clarendon G. Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Clynes, J. R. Illingworth, Percy H. Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Cobbold, Felix Thornley Jardine, Sir J. Rainy, A. Rolland Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Rea, Waiter Russell (Scarborough) Condon, Thomas Joseph Johnson, W. (Nureaton) Reddy, M. Corbett, C. H, (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Redmond, William (Clare) Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Jowett, F. W. Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Cowan, W. H. Joyce, Michael Richardson, A. Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Kavanagh, Walter M. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Crean, Eugene Kekewich, Sir George Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Crooks, William Kelley, George D. Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Crosfield, A. H. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Cross, Alexander Kettle, Thomas Michael Robinson, S. Crossley, William J. Kilbride, Dennis Robson, Sir William Snowdon Cullinan, J. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Laidlaw, Robert Roche, John (Galway, East) Davies, Timothy (Fulham) Lamb, Edmund G. (Leominster) Roe, Sir Thomas Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Rogers, F. E. Newman Delany, William Lamont, Norman Rose, Charles Day Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Rowlands, J. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lehmann, R. C. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Dilke, Rt. Hen. Sir Charles Levy, Sir Maurice Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Dobson, Thomas W. Lewis, John Herbert Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Donelan, Captain A. Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Duckworth, Sir James Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lundon, T. Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester) Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lyell, Charles Henry Seely, Colonel Dunne, Major E. Martin (Walsall) Lynch, H. B. Shackleton, David James Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Erskine, David C. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Sheehy, David Essex, R. W. Mackarness, Frederic C. Sherwell, Arthur James Evans, Sir S. T. Maclean, Donald Shipman, Dr. John G. Falconer, J MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Silcock, Thomas Ball Fenwick, Charles MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Ferens, T. R. M'Kean, John Snewden, P. Ferguson, R. C. Munro M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Soames, Arthur Wellesley Ffrench, Peter M'Micking, Major G. Soares, Ernest J. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Mallet, Charles E. Spicer, Sir Albert Flynn, James Christopher Manfield, Harry (Northants) Stanger, H. Y. Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Steadman, W. C. Fuller, John Michael P. Massie, J. Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal) Fullerton, Hugh Masterman, C. F. G. Strachey, Sir Edward Furness, Sir Christopher Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Summerbell, T. Gibb, James (Harrow) Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Ginnell, L. Micklem, Nathaniel Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Middlebrook, William Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Glen-Coats, Sir T. (Renfrew, W.) Molteno, Percy Alport Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Glover, Thomas Mond, A. Thomasson, Franklin Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Money, L. G. Chiozza Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Mooney, J. J. Thortie, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Grayson, Albert Victor Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Thome, William (West Ham) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Tomkinson, James Griffith, Ellis J. Morse, L. L. Toulmin, George Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Trevelyan, Charles Philips Hall, Frederick Myer, Horatio Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Nannetti, Joseph P. Verney, F. W. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Napier, T. B. Walsh, Stiphen Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Walton, Joseph Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Nicholls, George Wardie, George J. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Hart-Davies, T. Norman, Sir Henry Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Norton, Captain Cecil William Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Nussey, Thcmas Willans Wedgwood, Josiah C. Harwood, George Nuttall, Harry Weir, James Galloway Haslam, James (Derbyshire) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Haworth, Arthur A. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Hayden, John Patrick O'Connor, T. P (Liverpool) White, Patrick (Meath, North) Hazel, Dr. A. E. W. O'Grady, J. Whitehead, Rowland Hazleton, Richard O'Kelley, James (Roscommon, N.) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Hedges, A. Paget G'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wilkie, Alexander Helme, Norval Watson Parker, James (Halifax) Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Hemmerde, Edward George Partington, Oswald Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Pearce, Robert (Staff. Leek) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.) Pearce, William (Limehouse) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Henry, Charles S. Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Wilson, VV. T. (Westhoughton) Hobart, Sir Robert Philips, John (Longford, S.) Winfrey, R. Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Pickersgill, Edward Hare Yoxall, James Henry Hogan Michael Pirie, Duncan V Holland, Sir William Henry Pointer J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Hope, W, H. B. (Somerset, N.) Pollard, Dr. G. H. Joseph Pease and the Master of Horniman, Emslie John Power, Patrick Joseph Elibank.
NOES. Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth) Anstruther-Gray, Major Fell, Arthur Paulton, James Mellor Arkwright, John Stanhope Forster, Henry William Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Ashley, W. W Foster, P. S. Peel, Hon. W. R. W. Balcarres, Lord Freeman-Thomas, Freeman Percy, Earl Baldwin, Stanley Gardner, Ernest Powell, Sir Frarcis Sharp Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Pretyman, E. G. Banner, John S. Harmood- Gculding, Edward Alfred Randies, Sir John Scurrah Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) Gretton, John Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill Remnant, John Farquharson Beauchamp, E. Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Renwick, George Beck, A. Cecil Haddock, George B. Ridsdale, E. A. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hamilton, Marquess of Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesalt) Bertram, Julius Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Ropner, Colonel Sir Robert Bignold, Sir Arthur Harris, Frederick Leverton Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Bridgeman, W. Clive Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Salter, Arthur Clavell Bull, Sir William James Hay, Hon. Claude George Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Burdett-Coutts, W. Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Sheffield, Sir Berkeley George D. Carlile, E. Hildred Hill, Sir Clement Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.) Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Smith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton) Castlereagh, Viscount Houston, Robert Paterson Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hunt, Rowland Stanler, Beville Cecil, Lord R. Marylebone, E.) Kerry, Earl of Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r) Kimber, Sir Henry Starkey, John R. Chance, Frederick William King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull) Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Channing, Sir Francis Aliston Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Stone, Sir Benjamin Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Cheetham, John Frederick Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Clive, Percy Archer Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Thornton, Percy M. Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Tuke, Sir John Batty Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Valentia, Viscount Cory, Sir Clifford John Lonsdale, John Brownlee Walrond, Hon. Lionel Cox, Harold Lowe, Sir Francis William Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) M'Arthur, Charles Wills, Arthur Walters Craik, Sir Henry M'Calmont, Colonel James Winterton, Earl Dalrymple, Viscount Magnus, Sir Philip Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Dickson, Rt. Hon. Charles Scott Marks, H. H. (Kent) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. Dixon Mason, A. E. W. (Coventry) Younger, George Doughty, Sir George Mason, James F. (Windsor) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Middlemore, John Throgmorton Du Cros, Arthur Mildmay, Francis Bingham TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan) Newdegate, F. A. Everett and Sir J. Dlckson-Paynder. Faber, George Denison (York) Oddy, John James
The Amendment I have to move is to insert after the word "value" the words "accruing after the thirtieth day of April, nineteen hundred and nine." This is really a drafting Amendment to carry out more clearly than appears on the face of the Bill what has been stated over and over again by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be his intention as regards the Increment Duty. As I understand, there is no intention to take into account any increment which has accrued prior to 30th April, 1909; that is a matter which ought to be perfectly clearly stated on the face of the Bill. I think any hon. Member who has tried to work out how that is to be deduced from the Bill as it stands must have had some difficulty. I myself could not find out what there was in the Bill under which that was provided for until I saw in the 16th clause that owners are to send in a return declaring the total value and the site value respectively of their land, that value "being estimated as on the thirtieth day of April, nineteen hundred and nine." Therefore, I assume when the duty be- comes payable a sum will be brought about that will arrive at the result which the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained, and which I want to put broadly and clearly on the face of the Bill by this Amendment. I would point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if the owner sends in no return at all there is not a word on the face of the Bill showing what is to be the increment as valued by the Commissioners. The only line in the Bill which deals with the matter is that which I have pointed out in section 16. This is a very serious matter, on which there ought to be no doubt at all. It is a matter which ought to be stated clearly, and the proper place to do so is when setting up the tax in the first clause. You ought there to make it perfectly clear that none of this increment value of land is to arise in connection with anything that has been done by the community with reference to land up to 30th April, 1909. I daresay the right hon. Gentleman will believe me when I say that I have no ulterior object of any kind in moving this Amendment. I have proposed it because of the difficulty I had in working out how the increment prior to that date was to be exempted from the duty. I submit I have shown that the Bill as it stands does not make that perfectly clear.
Question proposed, to insert after "value" the words "accruing after the thirtieth day of April, nineteen hundred and nine."
I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) will agree with me that it would have been desirable to place the Amendment on the Paper, so that those in charge of the Bill might have had the opportunity of considering it. The hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well that it is very difficult to see the exact bearing of Amendments unless you have an opportunity of considering them with the help of your expert advisers. The object which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has in view is one on which we are agreed. It is not proposed to charge any increment duty except on values which accrue after 30th April, 1909. Any words that are necessary to make that perfectly clear ought to be on the face of the Bill, if it is not clear now, but I do not know that this would be the proper place to insert the words. There is that difficulty about accepting the words here. I do not quarrel with the principle, and I am rather disposed to accept the Amendment subject to this cautionary statement. Supposing it is found as a matter of drafting that the words which are inserted here really are not in their proper place, and that it would be far better in order to make the matter clear that they should be inserted at another part of the Bill, I shall have, if I accept the Amendment, to reserve the right to reconsider the question of drafting. But in order to show the bona fides of the Government, I will be prepared to accept any form of words to make it perfectly clear that the increment duty can only be charged on the increment accruing after 30th April, 1909. I am not quarrelling at all about the words. I only saw this Amendment about five minutes ago, and I have not had time to go into it. There may be some question as to the matter of drafting, but subject to that I am prepared to accept these words now.
Question, "That the words 'accruing after the thirtieth day of April, nineteen hundred and nine' be there inserted," put and agreed to.
moved, after "value" to insert "one-half of the amount levied to be paid into the local taxation account and to be distributed and applied in the same manner as the Probate Duty grant under the Local Government Act, 1888."
As the hon. Member for Bolton has been called upon, may I be allowed, Mr. Chairman, to call your attention to the fact, as a matter of order, that there are Amendments to the same effect, or at all events on the same subject matter, on pages 26, 27 and 38 of the Notice Paper I There is an Amendment on page 38 setting out the subject at full length. I am sure it will be the desire of the Government and of all parties interested in the subject that the extent to which local authorities are possibly to participate in the yield of this duty should be thoroughly and properly discussed. I only wish to ask whether as a matter of convenience this is the right place to discuss the point, and also how you will be prepared to deal with the other Amendments when we come to them?
I do not need to consider at present whether this is the best place to move the Amendment. All I have to consider is whether this Amendment is in order at this point, and I rather gather that it would be for the convenience of the Committee to discuss the matter now. I am of opinion that the Amendment is in order at this point, and therefore I am allowing it to be moved.
You will not exclude the other Amendments when we come to them?
If the matter is settled here that may exclude the other Amendments or it may not. That depends upon the nature of the settlement, and I cannot tell at present what will actually happen.
May I ask whether the Amendment is in accordance with the title of the Bill, which is to "Grant certain Duties of Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise) to alter other duties, and to amend the law relating to Customs and Inland Revenue (including Excise) and the National Debt, and to make other provisions for the financial arrangements of the year"? The Amendment proposes the allocation of certain duties to the local authorities. Clause 68 provides for the allocation of certain monies to the local authorities, but they have first of all to go into the Consolidated Fund. I ask whether the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Bolton is in accordance with the title of the Bill?
This Bill amends the law with regard to certain duties and Customs and Inland Revenue, and there is a part of the Bill, namely, Clause 68, which does allocate the Motor Tax to a specific purpose. Therefore, I submit it is perfectly competent to propose an allocation of this tax in the way indicated in the Amendment.
The hon. Member for South-East Durham (Mr. Lambton) asked me whether the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Harwood) is within the title of the Bill. I may say that I have already given a great deal of time and attention to this particular point, which is an important point, and I am of opinion that the Amendment is within the title of this Bill, because there are precedents for putting a proposal of this kind in a Finance Bill without any separate Resolution having been moved in Committee of Ways and Means or the Committee of the whole House authorising such a course. I do not understand what the point was in regard to Clause 68, and perhaps the hon. Member would kindly state it again.
The point was mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer just now that Clause 68 provides, "That the proceeds of the duties on the licences for the sale of intoxicating liquor and on licences for motor cars imposed by this Act shall, so far as respects the sums to be paid into any local taxation account out of the Consolidated Fund in respect thereof," and so on. According to the words of the Amendment, the sum to be paid will not go into the Consolidated Fund at all. It will go direct to the authorities.
In addition to what I said before about this Amendment being in order, I may say that it is in order to prescribe conditions of this kind for a new tax. As to why the course adopted in section 68 is not to be carried out here is a different question. In that case the money being taken from the Consolidated Fund requires a Resolution of this House before the clause can be passed. I do not know why the Government have chosen to take that course in regard to this proposal of Clause 68. It is quite possible—I do not know whether it is the case or not—it is quite possible that in the actual machinery for carrying out what the hon. Member for Bolton proposes, if it is adopted by the Government, some such course as that of Clause 68 will have to be taken. But the Committee is at perfect liberty to lay down this condition to this particular tax, and to do it by the form of an Amendment.
There is considerable advantage in having this important matter discussed at an early stage, so that we may make up our minds as to what will become of the money which we are levying. The proposals contained in my Amendment can be justified on the two grounds of justice and policy. It must be understood that my Amendment does not refer to anything except the Increment Tax, which is now the question before the House. The application of this principle, of course, does not come within the consideration of my subject. I am simply referring to the Increment Tax, which is now the special tax before the House, and I am referring to the disposal of the tax. But, broadly, the principle is quite clear, that the results of this tax should be divided in equal proportions between the National Exchequer and the local authorities concerned. I say that this is both jusfe and politic. Really one does not like to keep on repeating what has been said so often already, but I think that outside this House one would hardly find anyone possessing a primitive sense of justice and primitive intelligence who would deny that the community has some right to some proportion of that which is now being claimed. I may mention a case which will illustrate what I mean. I bought a few acres of land near a progressive community, and I simply had to wait while the community kept stretching out its roads, its electric supplies, its gas and water. I never contributed anything to the rates of the community. The bricks which were required to build houses which the progressive community made necessary paid; the interest of the original parcel, and I simply waited until the community had: spent its money, and then with ease I got ten times the value I had given for ii. I simply mention this as an instance of thousands and hundreds of thousands of I cases. There is no one who has a rudi- mentary sense of justice who must not acknowledge that the community who has brought this increase of wealth to any particular person has some right to some proportion of that wealth. That is the justice of the matter, which, I think, cannot be disputed, and it must be borne in mind that we are not asking for one-fifth the capital value of the property, as has been so often stated, but we are simply asking for one-fifth of the increased value. I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been most lenient in meeting this matter. He has agreed to have a provision which will guarantee that this shall be an increase produced simply by the community and not by individuals holding their property, and, therefore, I think that the claim of one-fifth is fairly just. How shall that be divided?
Some people would say that the community has a right to the whole of it; and there is much to be said for that. We are asking only for one-fifth of that which in strict justice we might ask for the whole of, but having asked and got that, what then we have to consider is who ought to have it? It might appear on the face of it from the illustration which I have given that you would say that the community has produced this wealth for you, and, therefore, the community alone should have the value of whatever is raised by the tax. But I do not think that is quite correct. Local Government, however good, cannot be affected unless there is added to it good national government and national security, and the nation does find collectively a great deal of the elements which go to make this increased wealth possible. However well your community was governed it would be no use if you had not an army, a navy, good protection and good State government. Therefore, I say that the State contributes a large element to the causes which go to produce this increase of wealth. Therefore, it is fair that the State should receive a proportion. The question is what proportion? In the practical working of this scheme, if it all went to the community you then would take it out of the control of Parliament. Parliament has no power to propose regulations about rating and things of that kind. Now, at is a most important matter—and I think the Committee on all sides will agree with me—that in a matter of this kind, a new and most important principle which may be, and I hope will be, extended, that at any rate this principle shall be kept within the control of Parliament. That can only be done if the National Exchequer is a partner in the business. Therefore, on those two grounds, of what the nation contributes towards this increased wealth and of the necessity of keeping the national hand upon the assessment and manipulation of it, I say that the proposal is a fair one. I think the House will quite recognise that. My hon. Friends on the other side, who seem so frightened, would have much more reason to be frightened by this principle if it went out of the control of Parliament. We should have local bodies which were in difficulties about their rates, and which had little sympathy with the landlords' interests, very likely working this principle in a cruel wray. On the other hand, we should have local bodies under landed influence not working this principle for the good of the ratepayers as they ought to do. Therefore, I think it is necessary to recognise the immense importance of this departure, and to recognise also the immense necessity, if I may say so, of Parliament retaining its hold over it. It cannot do so unless Parliament is a partner; and it is fair that it should be a partner for half because, according to the words of the Amendment, the State will take upon itself the cost of the machinery and of collecting this money and distributing it. And considering, therefore, the services that it renders and the security that it gives and the cost that is incurred, I think one-half is a fair distribution of the result, and, therefore, that is the proposal that I make.
I may say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the local bodies have had their eye on this for many years. This is being discussed in the House now as if it were something new, but most of us who are familiar with the trend of thought of corporate bodies are quite familiar with it. My own corporation, which is one of the most conservative in the country, is unanimous, and has been for years unanimous, that something ought to be done in regard to this increase. Really, when I sit here and hear the expressions of surprise at this most moderate tax, I wonder whether I or the other people are the Rip Van Winkles. I do not think that outside this House it would be possible to find a man of ordinary morality and intelligence who does not recognise that there is something here which ought to be rectified. Give all the safeguards you like to ensure that you are not doing an injustice, and that you do not tax any added value which is not due to the community, but the broad principle that the community ought to benefit in some degree by the added value that it gives to private property is indisputable. The corporations and local bodies were for years keeping their eyes on this kind of fruit, waiting for it to ripen to drop into their mouth. Now they were staggered when they find the Chancellor of the Exchequer coolly, in that airy manner which we all enjoy, coming forward and taking the whole fruit which these different corporations and local bodies have been looking forward to to relieve the rates. I therefore beg to suggest to him that it would be policy, and it would also be just, that he should at once acknowledge the claim of the community to a portion of the new tax, and therefore I propose the Amendment which stands in my name—that is, that the State and the local authority shall be equal partners in the proceeds of the tax.
Question proposed: "That those words be there inserted."
I appreciate very highly the concession which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made in this matter, although we do not consider the Amendment goes far enough. I have two objections to it. One is that it proposes to hand back to the locality only half the amount, whereas I think it ought to be the whole. The second objection is that it proposes to distribute the amount in a way that I do not agree with. Why ought not the whole amount to be given back instead of half? I have been a long time in this House, and I have listened to discussions on this question for I do not know how many years, and in every Debate I ever heard the whole basis of the argument in favour of the Increment Tax was that it should go to the local authorities. That was the basis of the Report of the Royal Commission. That has been the basis of every speech inside and outside this House for the last 30 years, and, unless I am mistaken, the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman in this Budget to take the whole or a portion of this tax for the Imperial Exchequer is the first proposal of that kind that has ever been made in our time. I object altogether to it. While I am grateful for the concession which the right hon. Gentleman has already given in consenting to half of this money going back to the localities, I desire to join all those who think that he should use every means in his power to go a step further and agree to the whole tax going back. It cannot embarrass him from the financial point of view, because we all know that the yield of the tax will be comparatively very small. I see no more reason why the whole yield of this tax should not go to the local authorities than why the whole of the Motor Tax and the Petrol Tax should not go to them. That has been agreed to in the case of the latter taxes, and I do not see why it should not apply to this one. As to how this money is to be distributed, it is proposed by the Amendment that it should be paid into the Local Taxation Account, and then distributed out of that account in the same way that the Probate Duty is distributed, under the terms of the Local Government Act of 1888. Of course, so far as Ireland is concerned, that would be modified by the provisions of the Local Government Act (Ireland) 1898, but substantially the mode of distribution would be the same, and, therefore, I make no point of the difference that may be brought into the distribution under the later Act applying to Ireland.
Distribution out of the Local Taxation Account under the Local Government Act, 1888, amounts to this, that the money goes in augmentation of these Imperial grants which are received by the local authority, and which go to the diminution of the charges on the local rates. The amount which will be received in Ireland under this arrangement will be comparatively small. The amount if distributed equally over all the local authorities in Ireland will be almost inappreciable, and will not be of any great benefit to the country. On the other hand, if this money is earmarked for use of the municipalities in such great works as housing, I would not confine it to the municipalities at all, but would extend it to housing in the country. For example, in Ireland, if the money could be earmarked for housing in towns and also for the housing of agricultural labourers in the country, it would confer a very great benefit on Ireland. I desire to impress upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he ought to give the whole of this money instead of half, and that, on the second point, he ought not at this early stage—when really this proposal has been more or less sprung upon us, and when there has been no time for careful consideration as to how this money could be most usefully spent—to agree to the Amendment at this moment, because that would preclude the consideration of the matter before the Bill leaves the House. There are strong reasons why this money should be distributed in Ireland rather in the way I have indicated than in the way proposed by the Amendment. Although I am entirely in favour of the principle of the Amendment, yet I would press these two considerations on the right hon. Gentleman—first, that he ought to give back the whole of the money, and, second, that he ought to postpone to a somewhat later period of the Bill the final decision as to how this money should be distributed.
The case put by the Leader of the Nationalist party is a very strong one. Of all subjects which come before the House this is one on which we ought to confess the most absolute ignorance. Mistakes have been made in the past, and they are really so humiliating to the House that I think it is better to begin by frankly confessing ignorance; I doubt very much whether the Government themselves are in a position to explain exactly what would be the effect of the distribution proposed by the Amendment. It is one of the most difficult subjects that can possibly occupy the attention of the House. Proverbs are supposed to be the concentration of wisdom, but a great man has said that the reverse of the proverb is much more true than the proverb itself. It is said we should not look a gift horse in the mouth, but that is exactly what you ought to do. Frankly, I accept this gift horse, but I think we cannot be too careful about examining it. The proposal of the right hon. Gentleman is not, I think, a fulfilment of the pledges which have been given.
Not a complete fulfilment.
Not complete for the moment. Undoubtedly the municipalities have all along been told that they were going to get this tax. Two years ago there was some ambiguous language used, but as my right hon. Friend does not contest the question of the promises I will not pursue that point. The present Prime Minister, over and over again, when in Opposition and in Office, and my right hon. Friend himself in the Debates which have taken place in the present Parliament on this subject, have given pledges so strong that they must be taken as affording us ground for supposing that this money was to go to the local authorities. The Amendment deals with the form of the distribution, and I am quite prepared to hear that we shall reserve the question of form. Any form of distribution may be open to very great objection. I frankly admit that it is a choice of evils. The House has been puzzled before this difficulty. Still, the particular plan which we are debating and which, it is suggested, we should adopt is open, as we have just seen in Ireland, to most stupendous objections. It is based upon a series of circumstances that no one can explain to the House. The general outline of it is that it rests upon the distribution of money that was made under pre-1887 grants. That is the principle. These are grants which, curiously enough, do not apply to matters present to our minds. The local authorities mainly applied the pledges to the new charges put upon them in regard to social matters which interest hon. Members below the Gangway opposite—the feeding of school children, and so on. But none of these things are on this basis at all. The basis on which the distribution rests is to be found in the famous report of Sir Edward Hamilton and Sir George Murray. The objections to the. form are so strongly set out in the Hamilton-Murray Report that it is impossible to exaggerate them; and Mr. Goschen in this House spoke of the absolute injustice of this basis, a statement which time has confirmed. The Hamilton-Murray Report pointed out that the basis of division which the Amendment proposes was wholly out of date. That was six years ago, and it will, now be still less in accordance with the. facts. The chief items on which it was mainly based were the large charge for police, and the charges for main roads and lunatics. There was nothing for education, and the next largest item to those I have mentioned was that for criminal prosecutions. As regards the method of distribution, many suggestions have been made, and. that of the hon. Member for Waterford is an obvious example. Resolutions have been passed about this Bill by local authorities of all shades of politics, and on this subject of which I am speaking above all others. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Lloyd-George) has put it more strongly than any politician in this country—that this is a workman's question, that it is a mistake to suppose these rates affect matters which are hereditary charges on property. I think that they do come close home to the workmen in all the towns and also in the rural districts. I do not wish to bring any party controversy into this particular point. The county councils pass resolutions with regard to this tax, which are quite independent of party lines. Sometimes they remember at the Last moment, and put in a saving clause, as in the case of the London County Council. They passed a neutral resolution, and, thinking it might be misunderstood, they put in "while retaining their objection to the tax." They wanted to have all the benefit. Many of the councils which are Conservative are passing resolutions simply in favour.
A municipal financier, Mr. Hayes Fisher, who is the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the London County Council, took charge of the meeting of the London County Council held specially to consider the Finance Bill. He is a representative man on this Question, and his speech on that occasion might be addressed to the House in support of the position which I have taken up. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government will tell us, with perfect truth, that they cannot effect a final settlement under this Bill of the relations between local and Imperial finance, that it can only be temporary as far as this Bill goes. We cannot hope for a final settlement, but, on the other hand, we have had these promises that the relations were to be settled so long ago that the local authorities are somewhat astonished that no solution has been even suggested, and that the solutions which seemed near two years ago have now receded to the background. Two years ago there was the expectation that the Poor Law Commission Report would be dealt with, and that, immediately, there would be some chance of a settlement in connection with that question. Two years before that, when an Education Bill was being discussed, everybody thought the question, so far as education was affected, would be dealt with. Now, as in 1894, you are making a temporary settlement. The Government in this Bill have to do something, but let us sufficiently examine this Question so as not to make things worse than before in the plan to be proposed. There is a serious danger of making things worse than before. Take the instance of the Agricultural Eating Act, quite apart from the merits of the Act, and look at the accounts of the Unions to see what we did do as a matter of fact. I mention that to show that evidently we were not aware of the particular form we gave to the temporary settlement of that rating question. I do not know whether we shall have a defence offered or whether any other plan will be adumbrated; but the plan before us has been defended in "The Westminster Gazette" of this evening, apparently as the Government reason for adopting this solution, that it will give to the great towns the possibility of not being robbed by the rural districts. If that is not the Government defence, I will not assume that, but it has been put forward this morning and this evening as though it were the defence for adopting the particular form of distribution which is suggested, that is the pre-'87 grant. It is thought by some hon. Members that it would be better not to end this question, and not to have even an indication of what we are going to do, but we ought to know where we are going. The Government no doubt have now found a kind of fetish that there are to be no more taxes allocated to local authorities. If that is so we must not go on allocating State duties such as are continually being put on local councils. I think if we are to have "a truce of God" in this matter that it ought to be a truce all round. There is great danger of giving illusory satisfaction if you merely take this money in to the maw of the State with the promise that portions of it shall be given back again, that the State may say in future that they gave all that, and that that is therefore a reason for not giving any more. The local authorities must not be told next year, when the question of the aged pauper comes up to be settled, that the money given this year prevents any additional money being-given. We must have a clear understanding on that point. I have supported this Bill, and am going to support it with the exception of one or two points. I confess I do not know how my right hon. Friend ihe Chancellor of the Exchequer is going t J keep the promise he made in the matter which we discussed last night, and which bears on this one. It refers to the incidence of these taxes upon those who are only guarded by the £50 limit with regard to one of them, for they are not guarded all round. I think you cannot afford to worry all the small owners to get little money out of them, and give them a great deal of trouble, because I thought it would be necessary to use the local authority to make your returns in the smaller cases. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Lloyd-George) said two nights ago that it was purely a question of valuing strips of land on the margin of towns.
That is wrongly reported.
I will not pursue it further. I join with the hon. Member for Waterford in putting in a caveat that we shall not proceed further now in the direction of stating what we are to do with the taxes under this Bill, and that we are not to say next year that the promises which have been made are not to be observed because the State has been generous on this occasion.
I desire to support the appeal of the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond) that the whole of these taxes should be given to the local authorities. I believe this Increment Tax should go to those who created it. I confess I never had and have not now any great hostility or any unfriendliness to the system of an Increment Tax. I think there is something certainly just about it, that a locality with enterprise that increases in population and manages its town well should share equitably with the land-owners in any great increase in value of the land of immediate owners. That Increment Duty ought to be levied equitably, and go to the right persons. I venture to say that the State is not the right body. It should go to those communities that have by their energy and enterprise done something to earn it. I say that the increment value earned by the locality should go to the locality, and that, if the localities could have this Increment Duty, there is a method of awarding it to them less tiresome, less worrying, and less dangerous than will be this system of valuation all over the country. I want to call the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention to the ridiculously small sum from the State point of view, which in all probability he will get from this duty. It is hardly to be expected that Increment Duty will arise on land other than that which comes in for building purposes. Any calculation as to the total area of land brought in for building purposes every year is mere conjecture. It has been stated in this House that Glasgow appropriates only 40 acres of land annually for its increase of population, and that Aberdeen, with a population of 160,000 takes only 15 acres a year. I have tried in vain to find some authority from which I could obtain the amount of land taken in this way all over England and Wales; therefore, I have to base my total estimate on conjecture. Glasgow, with a population of 800,000, takes 40 acres. Instead of 40 acres suppose we take 100. Taking 100 acres as representing 800,000 persons, and dividing those 800,000 into the total population of England and Wales, we get a result of 42½. If we multiply the 42½ by the 100 acres which we assume Glasgow to assimilate, it gives a total area in England and Wales taken for building purposes of 4,250 acres. The Increment Duty will be charged all over the country, and it will probably be safe to say that you will not get as a basis for your tax more than an average of £300 per acre. Indeed, I think that that is a high price to put it at. £300 per acre on 4,250 acres gives £1,275,000 as the annual sum on which to bass the tax, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to take one-fifth, or £255,000. Even if you double the amount and say £510,000, it is a ridiculous sum for the getting of which to-worry the country with a system of valuation such as is here proposed. It is not only a question of the worry, but there is the anxiety to know what all this valuation is about, and the sense of insecurity, to which it will give rise.
If the whole of the proceeds were handed over to the local authorities, the right hon. Gentleman would be doing no more than is right after the promises that have been made from time to time. The more we talk about the Land Taxes the more plainly it appears that they ought not to be in a Bill dealing with the general revenue of the country at all. They afford matter for a Bill in themselves. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has already promised to give away one-half of the proceeds of this tax, so that on the most favourable basis he will have only £255,000 to deal with. If he gave the whole to the local authorities to collect in an equitable manner, I am sure he would receive the thanks of the country from end to end. There is nothing to prevent local authorities on some equitable system from taking their share of the increment on building land on the day it comes in for building purposes. Perhaps you could get a plan straight off, but I do not think it would be impossible for the able men who advise the Government to discover a way in which it could be done, and then there would be no need for any of this worrying valuation. It is said that we are not to have any more State taxes allocated to local authorities. I do not know quite what is meant by State taxes, as all the money comes out of the same pockets; but I would raise my voice against the system of block grants from the central Government. These grants are accompanied by demands for increased efficiency and all sorts of things, which very soon swallow up the whole of the grant, and the rates go up just as before. If the local authorities had this local tax or rate in their own hands, each community would have what belongs to it. It would be to their interest to manage their affairs in an enterprising way, to make their towns attractive in order to draw population to them, and thereby to bring a greater area of land in for building purposes every year, on which land they would get the tax. If that were done, a good deal of the objection would be taken away from this particular proposal.
I move to amend the proposed Amendment by leaving out "one-half of," in the hope that the whole of this tax will be given to the local authorities. I think it is a little invidious of my hon. Friend to move his Resolution and to give reasons for only one-half of the, proceeds to be given. But it makes a great change in these Budget proposals. It brings them into accord with the whole stream of Liberal and Democratic doctrine. I thank also the Government and the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the announcement made last night that this change will apply not only to the one tax, but to the whole of the four land taxes that are in the Bill. I say, having gone so far on the good road, that we ought to go the whole way, and that is the effect of my Amendment. We should give the whole product of these taxes to the local authorities. I do not want to touch on the question of machinery. I do not think that the Amendment is satisfactory as to distribution of these taxes, but I think we had better not touch that question, because confusion might occur. I will confine myself absolutely to the principle that the whole result of these taxes should be given to the local authorities. This Budget must have come as an absolute surprise to anyone who, like me, has been working for 20 years or so for the rating of land in the localities in order that the land-owners might contribute a fair share of the local taxation. Here was a Budget suddenly introduced in which the whole of this great fund accumulated for years in the locality is suddenly taken by the State. Allusion has been made to previous inquiries into this question of the possibility of taxing land. The House must remember that as early as the Report of the Royal Commission on Housing, 20 years ago, it was recommended that rates should be laid on the land of a town for the benefit of the local authorities, and not of the State. The minority Report has been alluded to of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation, 1899. Several distinguished economists on both sides of politics recommended that the increased value of land in towns was a fair subject for rating, and the Report says most emphatically that it should be given, not to the Imperial authority, but to the local authority. For our present purposes to-night I am able to go to a better authority still—namely, the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself.
There is no man who has done more yeoman service on this Question or is more deeply pledged on it than is the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. In 1900 there was a Motion brought into the House, "That, having regard to the heavy and increasing burdens of local taxation in urban and certain other districts, the House urges upon the Government the necessity of redressing this undoubted grievance." That was seconded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We have never had in this House a more moving picture of the grievances and difficulties that urban authorities have than the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave on that evening. He called upon the Government to deal immediately with this crying necessity. He spoke of rates ranging from 6s. 6d. to 10s. in the £, and of the various duties which Parliament was constantly casting upon the local authorities. He said that 119 new duties had been thrown upon the local authorities within the few previous years, and he gave various cases to illustrate his point. He mentioned the water supplies in case of epidemics breaking out, and a picturesque description of the heavy burdens borne by the towns, especially in connection with the housing of the working classes. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was able to suggest a remedy. That remedy was the rating of land that had increased in value around the towns, and giving the full benefit of that tax to the local authority. In conclusion, he said that he would take anything which offered an effective relief, but that the source which he mentioned was the right direction in which to go to find that relief. I have dealt with this point to show that the whole stream of progressive democratic teaching with regard to the taxation of land is that the produce of the taxes should be given to the local authorities. Let me just give one or two reasons why that is so, although they may be familiar to most of us. This matter is sometimes spoken of as if land increased in value by itself. It does not do so. An acre of land in Threadneedle-street is not more convenient and not more useful than an acre of land on the top of a Scottish mountain if something is not done to make it valuable. Streets have to be built, and money has to be spent to give it value. This applies to all land about towns. The value was put there by the effort of the members of the community, and as it accumulates it is as directly and completely their property as anything else they possess. A growth of value involves local expenditure and local services. Another point: This valuable land is the only property in the district which is exempt from rating. Most other property becomes a fair subject for the local rates. Land enjoys this extraordinary exemption. It is a blot on these land taxes that exemptions of considerable value will continue. Take the land on which slum property is built. That land would be developed in accordance with principles laid down in the Bill. It might be overcrowded and insanitary, and yet not one of the four taxes fall upon it. That shows the need of a more equitable way of bringing this land into the contributory area. Let me look for one moment at the case which is put forward by the Press and the Chancellor of the Exchequer against this proceeding. The Chancellor says: "I am out for money; I must get it." He will get more than he requires. His estimates are too low. as I mentioned before. The taxes will produce £6,000,000 more than the £14,000,000 which he requires. This proves conclusively that the test—I do not wish to use the word offensively—that the argument that the money is required, and therefore cannot be given to the local authorities, will not hold water. So far as there was any vitality in the argument it was given away. There is another point. It was mentioned here that care and assistance would be wanted in collecting and distributing the money. I think that is a very small point. I think the cost would be little, and even if the cost of collection were deducted by the Treasury, that would make a very small difference in the whole of the tax. There fore, I think it is clear that this argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he cannot afford to give away these taxes will not hold water, for he has plenty of margin. I put in a claim from the local authorities as against the Treasury taking this money. I must say I think there has been a great confusion of thought in regard to this subject of the taxation of land. The doctrine of Free Trade is that commodities which are necessaries of life should not be loaded with heavy taxes by the State, and it appears to me that land is as much a necessity as bread or meat, and that the doctrine which says, "Do not tax bread or meat" applies equally to land. We hold that if you tax certain things it will make them dearer. We hear Tariff Reformers bringing forward a certain kind of wicked man who has got goods, and they say, "tax the goods of this wicked man, he will have to pay it." I doubt it. I believe the ultimate consumer will have to pay the price, and I believe land taxes are more likely to be passed on than rates; at any rate, I hold that there has been considerable confusion between what the State may do and what the local authority ought to do in these matters. There is no Free Trade argument against taxing anything in the locality. You tax the butcher's shop and you tax the bread shop. If we do not adopt this course in very full respect we leave the present anomaly existing. Under the four taxes in the Bill there will be plenty of land untaxed in the locality, and, although giving half to the local authorities will not absolutely cure that defect, yet it will be a recognition of the claim of the locality and I think possibly we might carry it forward. I think there is very general concurrence of feeling in the House with regard to this matter. There is the old proverb which says, "It is hard to take butter out of a dog's mouth," and once these taxes goes into the hands of the central authority there will be a constant fight to get them back. Therefore, I appeal to everyone who approves this system to say that the principle if laying this burden on land, although embodied in the Bill, is sound, but that there is a corollary that all the produce of it ought to go to the local authority, and it is to carry out that purpose that I have much pleasure in moving the Amendment which stands in my name.
Question proposed, Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment to leave out "one-half of."
I wish to support the views placed before the Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Waterford City (Mr. John Redmond). He alluded to the pledges which had been given at elections by Members belonging to all political parties, and I think there was no subject more popular with audiences than the cry that where lands had increased in value enormously in the neighbourhood of towns without any assistance from the landlord, but owing to the increase in the towns, it was only natural that the locality should have the benefit of the increased taxation, which should go to lighten the local taxation. That seems to me to be only a fair theory. Fifteen years ago I used to do a great deal of stumping in this country, and in those days it was a popular theory, and I never heard it upset or tried to be upset. That was the case fifteen years ago, and I am perfectly sure that that feeling is far from decreasing, but has increased. People now expect that taxation which accrues from increased value in land in the neighbourhood of towns, and which is due to the extension of towns, ought to be used to lessen taxation in the towns. I regret myself that there should be any departure from what I believe is a just theory, and I very much regret that the Government has not seen its way to go the whole hog and to redeem the pledges given on the hustings and to devote the whole money got from this tax to the lessening of the taxation in the towns already much overtaxed.
My hon. Friend the Member for Water-ford said something as to the distribution of this half-tax. He said, in his opinion, it would be a mistake to earmark this tax for any public purpose, and that to distribute it to the objects for which at the present we get some assistance from Imperial sources might also be a mistake. I know there may be some difference of opinion in Ireland on this subject. Some county councils may say that the money should be handed over, as at present, in the way of augmentation of the grants that come from Imperial sources. That is not my feeling. If it was meted out to the local authorities in that way, it would do comparatively little good, but if time was taken to consider how it ought to be distributed, a great deal of good might be done. Year after year additional duties are imposed upon the local authorities. They are called upon to do to-day what it was never contemplated they should do ten or fifteen years ago. They have to provide proper food for children, proper houses, and so forth, for the people, and I certainly corroborate the view that it would be far wiser not to allocate this money without due consideration. In the past many mistakes have been made. Estimates have been formed which, in course of practice, proved to be illusory and bad, and the localities had to be the sufferers. I ask the Government, in the first instance, to give the whole of the tax to the local authorities, and if they cannot do that, I certainly call upon them to carefully distribute, after due consideration, what they are going to give, so that something useful may be done with it—not only for the different localities in Ireland, but useful also for the different localities in this country, who have an unanswerable claim to it.
I should like to join in the appeal which has been made from this side of the House in favour of giving more relief to the local rates. Today, I understand, the Chancellor of the Exchequer conceded the principle of this Amendment with regard to all the land taxes in the Bill, and if that point is made clear, and it is also made clear that the districts where the tax is raised will get the benefit of that through their own local funds, it will be a great deal to allay the feeling in the country with regard to the heavy local expenditure, and it will also allay a certain amount of misgiving. I think the Chancenor of the Exchequer must by this time have realised that the increment value is something which is not entirely due to a vain entity called the community, but arises very largely from local enterprise in the districts where the increment arises. I happen to represent a town which has shown a very rapid increase in population. I think a few years back the population was between 12,000 and 15,000, but to-day it is 57,000, and it is increasing very rapidly each year. That increase undoubtedly leads to an increment in land values, and it is in no small degree, if not entirely, attributable to the enterprise of building speculators, the investment of capital by landlords, and the expenditure of local rates raised and paid by the residents in the district. The town I refer to has had a Bill before Parliament involving an expenditure of £150,000 upon a sewerage scheme, and if that expense is incurred land values will increase not by reason of any action on the part of the community, but on account of local expenditure by the local ratepayers. In face of such illustrations as that, and there are many in the country, one feels that the people on the spot have the strongest claim to benefit by the increment value. I do not go so far as some hon. Members who have spoken in thinking that the locality is alone entitled to the benefit of this increment. I think increment value wherever arising may be a perfectly fair subject of general taxation, but I appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give us in our own districts a very full benefit from this taxation, which is taxation on values attributable mostly to the enter- prise of the residents in the district. I hope that whatever be the benefits which we may derive under the Finance Bill by reason of any concession made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer it will be recognised, as the right hon. Baronet, the Member for the Forest of Dean said, as something which the localities are themselves entitled to, and not as only one feature in a general adjustment between the Treasury and the local authorities. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer can give us a firm assurance that a large part of the sum raised will come to the localities it will do much to remove misgivings which now exist in the country, and it will secure support in carrying through these proposals.
I rise to join in the appeal which has been made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to go a little further than he has already done in the matter of the allocation of this land tax. We were all delighted to hear the right hon. Gentleman announce yesterday that he proposed to devote one-half of this tax to the relief of local taxation. I hope he will be able to go a little further, because I think a splendid case has been made out to show the necessity for going a considerable distance further. The question to which we are asked to address ourselves this evening is simply whether or not we are agreed as to the necessity and the advantage of levying a tax on unearned increment, and we are confining ourselves to the discussion whether the money raised from land should be devoted wholly or partly to the district in which it is raised or to the Imperial Exchequer. Irish Members feel very strongly that the money raised in the shape of local taxation should go to the relief of the localities in which it is raised. No doubt the same feeling prevails throughout England, but I do not propose to deal with that side of the subject. The towns in Ireland are, unfortunately, not so progressive and prosperous as the great towns of England. The rates in Ireland bear heavily on the people. They are a burden upon the people of the towns especially, and many small towns with a population of 10,000, 15,000, and 20,000 have rates amounting to 10s., 11s., and, in some cases, 12s. in the pound. Everybody must admit that this is a crushing burden upon the people. In agricultural Ireland the landlords especially have in recent years received considerable relief from the burdens of taxation under the Local Government Act, but during that period the towns have got little or no relief in the shape of grants from the Imperial Exchequer in relief of local taxation. Consequently they now have a very strong claim when land adjacent to the towns is going to be taxed, for the whole of that taxation going to the relief of the local taxes. I do not think it would be wise at this moment to go into the question of the redistribution of the Imperial grants to Ireland. It is a different method in Ireland to that which has been adopted in England. A certain fixed amount has been given to the whole of Ireland, and it has been distributed to the various unions in a manner which works very unfairly: There are unions where the ratepayers pay 8d. and 10d. and 1s. in the pound, and other districts where the rates are 10s. in the pound, and yet the latter unions get no more relief from the Imperial Exchequer than the other richer unions. If this question of redistribution of Imperial grants is to be gone into, it should be completely overhauled and some equitable arrangement come to, so that the most deserving and those least capable of bearing the burden should get as much relief as the richer parishes. I do not intend to go into that question now, but I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to grant the whole of these taxes for the relief of local rates throughout the United Kingdom, and I especially appeal to him to consider the case of doing this, at least in the case of Ireland, because, I think, we are able to make out a case for special exemption. The ways in which contributions are given to local rates in Ireland from the Imperial Exchequer are extraordinary. I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that if he will not grant the whole of this taxation to the relief of local rates throughout the United Kingdom he will consider that a special case has been made out in favour of giving relief to Ireland.
I should like to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consider the advisability of accepting the Amendment of my hon. Friend, and allocating the whole of this money to the local authorities. He has committed himself to that by his action of yesterday. So long as the tax was a tax to be levied on all normal increment of agricultural land and town land, I do not think it was possible for us to object to its being allocated to national purposes. But after his speech of yesterday, it would appear that the towns are to be placed in a very advan- tageous position, and that applies particularly to the Metropolis. There is no part of England that will contribute more than the Metropolis. I will not weary the House by citing many cases, but I should like to point out two. We have had in the Metropolis experience of what is known as the "betterment system." There are several betterment cases in London. Take the case of the Tower Bridge. The value of the land there has risen from £32,000 to £56,000, so that the increase has amounted to 75 per cent, of the original value. Then there is another case in Putney, where the increase amounted to 150 per cent. If you take the Holborn and Strand improvements you will find that land which before the improvement was worth 1s. per square foot is now worth 6s. per square foot, and the increase in value which has occurred owing to improvements is anything between 150 per cent, and 200 per cent. That is the process which is going on in the Metropolis, and under this new duty there will be a considerable amount of money forthcoming. If it is to be shared by the rest of the country, it will inflict considerable injustice upon London. I venture to suggest that if the right hon. Gentleman will allow this peculiar local taxation to be applied to the benefit of the locality he will lighten his task when he comes to the question of the new general Exchequer grant. There is one other point I should like to submit, and that is, if this proposal is to be carried out in the way suggested by the Amendment, that in itself will not do what is desired—that is, it will not give to the locality the actual amount of money levied from the locality, but it will be distributed in a method which has long been recognised as unfair. The proposal is that the money should be allocated to the local authorities in the same manner as the grant of 1885. I venture to suggest that it is not the best way to do it. The best way is to follow the system which was applied in 1888 with reference to the Local Taxation Licences. You ought to allocate to the various localities the money which is collected under this new duty in the same proportion as the money to which I have already referred. I do not know whether this Amendment as it stands has been considered by the advisers of the Government. If not, I venture to submit it would be better to alter it in such a form as to secure that the duty, whether it be one-half or the whole of the proceeds, shall go back in propor- tion to the amount actually levied, and not in any artificial proportion, such as was initiated in 1888 with reference to the Probate Duty, and which, so far as London and other large towns are concerned, has proved to be so very disadvantageous. On several occasions complaints have been brought before the Treasury with reference to the allocation of these grants, and I hope that the injustice which has been submitted to for several years in reference to this matter will not be renewed in the case of these duties, which are of a peculiarly local nature, and, as such, ought to be returned to the locality in which they are levied.
The Debate, so far, has gone on the assumption that the Land Tax should be returned to the localities in which it is raised. The Amendment to the Amendment now before the House has that for its object. I do not propose to discuss how the money is to be allocated, but I would point out there is another side to the argument, and that even the best and most progressive locality owes something not merely to the enterprise of its own population, but to the powers and operations of populations far removed from it. Take, for example, the case of a watering place. A good deal of the land value there is due to the fact that it is a desirable seaside resort, to which people flock, and, however pleasant the town itself may be, unless it possesses that particular attraction people would not resort to it. I might instance a place like Southend, which owes a good deal of its value to the fact that it is a pleasant resort for Londoners who spend their holidays there, and who, surely, are entitled to participate to some extent in the values which they have helped to create. Again, take the case of a town in the midst of a coalfield; a large population grows up, and land values increase, but that is due to the fact that the customers for the coal live hundreds of miles away from the coalfield, and if it were not for their custom the land in that locality would not have the value it does possess. It appears to me, therefore, that the proposal accepted by the Government to retain a portion of the tax for the locality, and to apply the other portion to the general weal of the entire community, is a much fairer method of using this increment value than is proposed by the Amendment to the Amendment. Preference has been made by the hon. Member who last spoke (Mr. Dickinson) to the improvements in London as showing the desirability of allocating the whole of the money raised by this duty to London itself. If in future schemes of this kind better provision is made for the securing for the community improvements in the value of land which can be traced almost exclusively to the schemes referred to, I am sure it will meet with the approval of those who support the taxation of land. What we want is that all who help in one way or another to create the value shall participate in the advantages. It is on these grounds that we on these benches are supporting the Amendment that one-half shall be returned to the towns, and we intend to vote against the Amendment to the Amendment.
I support the Amendment on the somewhat narrower ground, speaking as an Irish Member, that we do need in Ireland the little help which this tax is likely to afford. I will also use the argument in favour of this Amendment which is to be found in the fact that the Scottish Association for the Taxation of Land Values has always urged that any tax of this nature should go in aid of local taxation. It was, I think, something more than a coincidence in connection with the interesting statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday, that last week there appeared on the agenda of the Glasgow Corporation, who were the pioneers in advocating this new tax, a notice of protest against the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to allocate this tax for national purposes. It is interesting to bear in mind that those who have so long advocated this new source of taxation, and have not hesitated to use the ratepayers' money for the furtherance of their propaganda, now find it necessary to protest when they see the Chancellor of the Exchequer, while adopting their suggestion, is proposing to rob them of the fruits of it. I suppose it is as a matter of conciliation that he now proposes to divide with them the proceeds of this new taxation. Let that be as it may, we have had, I think, very fair argument adduced this afternoon in favour of the enormous disadvantages of taking the full share of this taxation. I agree in regard to the comparatively small produce of this taxation in the next year or two, and I go further and say that as long as the present Government is in power we are not likely to have any substantial increment in land valuation. On the contrary, I think it is a matter of common knowledge that the general attitude of the Government on this Question in the last three years has led to the sharp depreciation of all classes of properties. The depreciation is so substantial that a first-class authority has recently put it as high as 20 millions sterling, and in view of that suggestion I do not think that the Government for the short period that it is likely to remain in office is likely to reap much profit from this system of taxation.
Turning to Ireland, I have to admit, and we admit it with regret, that our towns are not so rapidly progressive as the average towns in England and Scotland, and, therefore, we do not have this rapidly developing increment value, which in former years we were accustomed to see as in England and Scotland. At the same time, I am bound to differ from the hon. Member who gave as a reason that we had in Ireland towns taxed to the extent of 10s., 11s. or 12s. in the pound. Of course, I do not dispute the accuracy of the statement, but I am bound to say that in the Northern part of Ireland we have no such taxation whatever up to that extent, and the average rating will compare favourably with what is known in England and Scotland. But we do feel that we are entitled to look to the Government, who are initiating this new system of taxation, to return it in full, and we hope if the Chancellor of the Exchequer does agree to give us the full produce of the taxation, that he will not return it to us in the form in which we get the Probate Duty's levy at times has a very unfair in the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because we find that our grants under the Probate Duty's levy at times has a very unfair incidence. For instance, in each country—Scotland, England, and Ireland especially—we do find that rich men are very prone when they retire from business to come to the Metropolis. They die there, and their Probate Duty falls to be paid into the fund of the Metropolis, and in that way the part of the country where they made their money does not benefit as it otherwise would. We hope that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer agrees to accept this Amendment, or whatever modification of it may be reached later on, he will bear in mind that there is a general feeling, and I believe it is not confined to Ireland, that the method of distribution which we at present enjoy under the Probate Duty, is not entirely satisfactory to the towns or even to the rural districts. I only make this suggestion, in joining with our Friends below the Gangway, in urging that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may see his way to make this concession. It is not a very great one, I agree, but it is a concession which we claim to have in regard to a tax which I entirely oppose. We believe that the whole product of it will be illusory, but I hope that, if he does deal with the matter, he will give way to the claims so eloquently urged from below the Gangway.
One hon. Member in speaking about the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to discuss it as though it was a proposal of the right hon. Gentleman to levy a new rate upon the whole of the ratepayers of the districts, and that, therefore, the money might legitimately be diverted to the wants of the district upon which that rate is levied. But we have to remember that many of our towns are encircled by land, which will come under the operation of this Act, that is held by one, or two, or three, or comparatively few persons. These persons may not be resident there, and this levy is largely a personal levy. There is another matter, about which I took a good deal of comfort, when I heard that statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We know that the whole subject of local taxation is long overdue, for a full exhaustive and thorough treatment. All localities are calling out about the incidence of specific taxes, and they are getting to see, as we are developing our civic life, that many of the things which the localities did for themselves can be better done by the community, or if not, we may be sure of this, that we have agreed that even though those services may be discharged locally, they are best discharged under the direction and in a measure under the control of laws and rules laid down by the whole community. I therefore jumped to the conclusion that the idea of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in this raid he is making upon a hen-roost, to enable him to treat more effectively with the various localities when he comes to open up on a broad and liberal scale this question of the re-settlement of the incidence of local taxation. But other hon. Members went to the extreme of asking that the results of the rates levied upon a given piece of land in a district might fairly be claimed as a benefit that ought to accrue to the very parish in which it was situated. But nobody here to-day, although they want to particularise this tax, seems to have come to an agreement what is the area upon which they would work. Some I know would want to lay it on the county, others will want to lay it on the great urban district councils—the great bodies embracing a larger number of similar bodies. Others will claim that it in a parochial matter. I do sincerely hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will take the wider, broader, and altogether larger outlook of the matter. Take one particular survey—I speak as an agricultural Member—the towns owe to us in the country an enormous debt. There is a steady stream of country life setting in upon our great towns, which the towns—in a generation or two at the outside—work out and use up. We produce that material, and at no cost to the towns, certainly not in the matter of education. Our education in the provinces is much starved for the want of money, and in the settlement which was made by the late Government they would have been enormously helped to a more effective settlement of that question had they been able to treat the whole matter as a national charge, and to relieve the poor local authorities of what is after all a matter of national concern. In so far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer takes this sum as a nest egg to enable him to deal on a broad and comprehensive basis with the whole question of local taxation, he will have the small measure of support I can give him. I hope he will not allow it to be frittered away by giving it only to the localities where it is claimed that it is raised. They do not earn or win the prize, which should go to the nation; from whom ultimately it will be found to have been derived.
The speech to which we have just listened was interesting, particularly as throwing a light by one of the supporters of the Government on the origin of this proposal for taxation, which, at any rate, has the merit of being entirely novel. According to the hon. Member, the object of these Land Taxes is to create a nest egg which will enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with recalcitrant local authorities in the reform of local taxation. If I understood the hon. Member, what he intended to convey was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by taking something which he could afterwards give up, would have the means of negotiating with the municipalities in the future. That is a most astonishing description of the reasons which the Government have had for putting this clause into their Bill, but I think this Amendment raises a matter of enormous importance, and one which merits very careful consideration by the Committee. To begin with, it is quite evident that if the principle contended for by the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Harwood), and still more by the right hon. Gentleman for Islington (Mr. Thomas Lough), is to be granted, it must apply not only to the Increment Tax but to the Reversion Duty and the Undeveloped Land Tax. It must apply altogether, and the proposal therefore is that a part or the whole of the Land Taxes are to be diverted from Imperial purposes and to go to local purposes. That is a very remarkable proposal, and it is an exceedingly remarkable fact that of these taxes, which are proposed to be put on nominally for Imperial purposes, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already given up half for the purposes of local taxation. I have always thought this part of the Bill utterly indefensible, but the latest proceeding of the Government shows that that has even less defence than I thought it had.
The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir Charles Dilke) explained the extreme unsatisfactoriness of the proposal to apply these duties in the same way as the Probate Duties are applied under the Act of 1888, and no one apparently quite knows, except those intimately competent with local government, what that results in, but with all our care it is an exceedingly bad result when it is arrived at. Therefore I do not think anything can be said for the actual Amendment, but I think it is an exceedingly interesting one, because it raises one of the essential principles on which this tax is supposed to rest. The hon. Member for Bolton said anyone with any ordinary morality—I do not know quite how morality comes into it; I should not have thought that was a proper quality to talk about when discussing this Budget—would see that the tax on increment value was obviously just. My morality may be very extraordinary, but I do not see any greater justice about it than, any other tax, perhaps very much less justice. But what was at the bottom of his mind was this. We have heard over and over again that this is a form of wealth which is created by the community, and therefore the community had a right to share in it. That has been the burden of every speech which has been made in defence of the tax. Now we have the great difficulty raised for consideration in the Committee—who really creates this wealth? One set of gentle- men say the nation at large creates it, and therefore the nation is entitled to the increment. Others say it is the actual locality which creates the increment, and therefore it is entitled to it. Neither point will stand a moment's consideration. It is created by the individual energy of the citizens of the nation and of the citizens of the town, and some of those individuals contribute far more to the increment than other individuals. Therefore, if anyone is to share in it it must be those who create it. That is the theory of the tax.
Let us take a few instances. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Keir Hardie) said: "How absurd to give it to the locality when it may be that a coalfield has created the increment and attracted the population, and the population has made the price of the land go up. Therefore the coalfield ought to have a share in it, and everyone interested in the coalfield ought to be benefited by the tax." Take the case of a great work of railway communication. When the Central London Railway was created the first effect was to drive up the rents at Shepherd's Bush, which became available for residence by the inhabitants of London to an enormous extent. Houses doubled in value all round the Shepherd's Bush Station. That increment was not the result of any act of the community, but of those who put their money into the railway; and if anyone was to share in the increment value why, in Heaven's name, should not the shareholders of the company. [An HON. MEMBER: "They get it in dividends."] Not more than everyone else. At present the system of taxation is fair. All forms of wealth are equally taxed—that is the idea at which we aim—and all members of the community share equally in the benefit of such taxation. Now comes a proposal to put a special tax on a special kind of property—on the ground that it is specially created by a certain set of people, either the inhabitants of the town or the inhabitants of the country, according to the view you take. That is not so. The increment is quite as often created by the individual efforts of individual citizens, and if anyone is to share in the benefits of the tax these individual citizens ought to come in for their share.
Nor is it only the case of a railway. Everyone who has been to the districts round London knows that nothing is commoner than for a few gentlemen to get together and to establish golf links. The immediate result is that all the land round the golf course goes up in value. Why should not the Increment Duty go to the promoters of the golf links? I see nothing in the whole argument which distinguishes the promoters of the golf links from the corporation of a town. There is no distinction whatever. I understand that this Amendment is not promoted merely on theoretical grounds. Certainly it has been accepted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It has been accepted by him in order to ward off formidable opposition to the proposal to impose the duty. That may be a good Parliamentary reason, but I think he ought to give a better reason than that. He may say that this is the first instalment in the reform of local taxation. I agree with the vast majority of the Members of this House in saying that the reform of local taxation is a matter which ought to be taken up by some Government in the future. It is a difficult and complicated matter, and I do not blame anyone for not taking it up before now. But what is wanted is not to add a new tax to the locality, but to rearrange the various burdens, and to rearrange, it may be, the method of raising the taxation. That is one proposal for the reform of local taxation. This proposal is nothing of the kind. It proposes to impose an additional tax to the taxes already borne by the locality, which may be used not to relieve existing burdens, but merely to create new ones. I myself on this occasion am opposed to the Amendments both of the hon. Member for Islington (Mr. Lough) and the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Harwood). I dislike this tax. I think it utterly indefensible, but if you are to adopt the theory that the increase in the value of land in some special way which I have never been able to understand is due to the action of the community, and that this principle does not apply to other forms of property—a proposition which seems to me wildly and absurdly untrue—if you once say that, then it seems to me that you ought to give the proceeds of the tax not to a particular community, town, or district, but to the whole country to share in its degree in this fictitious creation of increment value.
I agree with the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) that this is a very important issue which has been raised, and I regret that in the discussion few new suggestions have been made for the solution of the difficulty. The Debate up to the present has been confined to speeches made by Gentlemen who have taken an interest in this matter, and who have given their views as to the best way of solving the difficulty with respect to local taxation. The Noble Lord rather took the opportunity of making a frankly partisan speech against the tax. I do not complain of that. I have already indicated the general view of the Government with regard to the allocation of these taxes. I do not think this Amendment on the whole is the best method of doing so, and even if it were, this is certainly not the best place to insert it. I shall come to that later on. I wish to deal now rather with general principles. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir C. W. Dilke) has pressed the Government in the course of the discussion to redeem the pledges given not merely by the present Government, but by their predecessors for the last 30 years, to do something towards helping localities to bear the increasing burden of the local rates. In the discussions that have taken place since I have been a Member of this House I have heard Minister after Minister making promises, and I think pledges have been given by the present Government on three separate occasions. One occasion was in response to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of Dublin in the discussion on the King's Speech a year or two ago. Therefore, we are undoubtedly pledged to do something to help the localities.
I distinctly stated in my Budget speech that it was the intention of the Government to allocate a portion of the money which they hope to raise by the new taxes to the relief of local taxation in some shape or other. I gave a definite and specific promise. I admit that I would rather have deferred dealing with the matter until it was possible to take the whole relation of local and imperial taxation into account. There are several methods of dealing with the Question. One of the worst is the giving of grants in aid. I do not put this proposal to allocate a specific tax in the same category as grants in aid. I think one of the best methods is rather to share in the burden of special services. I agree with my right hon. Friend that since these pledges were given Ministry after Ministry, whilst neglecting to redeem the promises, have been piling up the responsibilities and liabilities of the localities. It is not the present Government merely, for the late Government did exactly the same thing. I say this in order to show that all parties are responsible in the matter. The Education Act of 1902 increased enormously the burden of localities, for better or worse, and two or three Acts of Parliament have been passed since then which have added to that burden. Therefore I feel bound, in reviewing this question, to consider the financial responsibilities with which we are confronted. I stated in my Budget speech that in estimating these liabilities and making provision for them I intended that local taxation should have a part and share of the surplus which I hope to build up by means of these taxes. But it has been urged upon us that, at any rate, the Government ought to give a more definite and substantial pledge and token of their intention, and that more especially with regard to those taxes in which localities have a special interest, and that that interest ought to be indicated by some words in this Finance Bill. I am prepared to recognise that view, and I stated yesterday that, in my judgment, the half of these taxes should be allocated for local purposes. With regard to the way that should be done I will deal later on.
I will deal first of all with the questions which have been raised in the course of this Debate as to whether, first of all, localities ought to have any share at all, and, secondly, whether they ought to have the whole of these taxes. With regard to the question whether they have any interest at all, I should not have thought that there was any doubt at all about that matter in the mind of anyone who has followed the history of this question during the last 30 or 40 years. I do not think that the Noble Lord will contest that values are very often created owing to expenditure by local authorities on improvements, often enormous expenditure. I know many cases where enormous sums of money have been spent by local authorities in improving localities, and where the increased value was directly attributable to that expenditure. I also agree with the Noble Lord that you cannot attribute the whole of the increment in any of these cases either to the municipality or to local enterprise entirely.
That is where I come to my second point that I do not think the local authorities have any claim to a monopoly of land taxation. The Imperial Exchequer, if it is in need of money, has as good a right to resort to land taxation as it has to taxation in any other shape or form. One of the hon. Members who spoke rather claimed that the Increment Tax ought to be allocated entirely and exclusively to the local funds of the district. I do not think that that would be fair, Take the case of a great city like Liverpool or Manchester, or take London, very considerable proportion of the increased value of land in the neighbourhood of these towns was created by these towns, and not created by the districts where the land goes up in value. There are districts outside Manchester covered with villas. Who sent up that value? It is not the district itself, or those who were dwelling in it, at any rate before the increase took place. It was the energy, the enterprise, the commerce, and the trade of Manchester. Then they flow outside, and, naturally, the land goes up in value. What happens if you confine the increment to the district in which it takes place? Manchester has certainly an interest in the districts surrounding it; it spent millions of money on the Ship Canal, and pouring out its population and wealth to improve the district outside; and it would not get a penny of the increment in these places. Surely the population of Manchester, especially the poorer population of Manchester, who contributed to create the wealth outside, ought to have the same claim, at any rate, as those dwelling in the place who had nothing to do with the growth in value of the lands. [An HON. MEMBEK: "They still pay the rates."] Yes, they still pay the very heavy rates, while the rates on the other people out-side are comparatively low, because there is no poverty. The population is not of that character that creates that kind of burden, and under that proposal they would enjoy the whole of the increment.
But I go beyond that, and I say that taking values of this kind I do not think that the people of Manchester, or of any area outside, ought to have a monopoly of the increased wealth created by that prosperity. It has sometimes been said about agricultural land being exempt to a certain point, that therefore rural land has no interest at all. Everyone knows perfectly well who lives in a rural area—it may be 50 or 100 miles removed from, say, great collieries or a great town—hoy it affects agricultural values. Wages go up, and to that extent it is undoubtedly prejudicial. Not alone that; there is the difficulty of getting labour. And I lay down this with regard to individuals, that the better favoured and more prosperous and more fortunate members of the community ought to be prepared to share their lives with the less favoured. And what applies to individuals applies equally to localities. Here is great wealth, possibly, say, in South Wales, out of the coalfields; you tax that. I agree with the Noble Lord that that is not wealth created by the community. It is placed there by Providence for the benefit of the country. I say that the nation as a whole, the people as a whole, have got an interest in that. It is part of our national wealth, and those who garrison the outlying districts of the country, the less attractive parts, it may be, of the country, and the more inclement and rough and rude parts of the country—those who dwell in those districts are entitled to whatever advantage there is to be got from these exceptional, unfortunate circumstances which belong to certain localities. For that reason I, for my part, could not assent to the proposition that these special sources of wealth ought to be confined in their advantages entirely to the districts where they get them. I have only laid that down as a general proposition. The first thing I would say would be that I think the localities—I do not mean the particular areas where the wealth is created, but I mean the municipalities, urban as well as rural—are entitled to a share of this taxation; but they are not in my judgment entitled to the whole. Among the taxes which are not mentioned by the Noble Lord in his survey of this proposition is the tax on royalties, because that is the part of the tax which will be most fruitful, and therefore I mention that. Substantially the tax on minerals is the tax on capitalised value on royalties. I do not wish to go into a discussion on that, but I mean now the Mineral Tax.
I do not wish to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I want your ruling, Sir, upon a point of order. We must have equal measure, of course, on all sides of the House. I can conceive that it is convenient, and even necessary, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should deal with another tax on this Amendment. If so, may I ask whether we shall be allowed equal latitude when we come to reply?
Upon the point of order, there is an increment on minerals, and I am dealing purely now with that increment.
The right hon. Gentleman was dealing with what he called the tax on the capitalised value of mineral royalties.
Certainly.
I thought he was referring to the Question of the tax on ungotten minerals.
It is quite impossible to carry on two discussions at the same time. Even the massive intelligence of the Noble Lord would be incapable of that.
On a point of order, I desire to ask whether it is in order that the right hon. Gentleman should refer to me in the obvious way he did?
It seems to me that it was quite in order to suggest that the Noble Lord has a massive intelligence. It is quite in order, and even complimentary.
I think I can put an end to this point of order by withdrawing both the adjective and the substantive. To get away from the attempt to carry on a. sort of subsidiary discussion on a point that is not at issue now, I say that whatever is the Mineral Tax which is involved in Clause 1, the nation as a whole is entitled to a share of that, not merely for local purposes, but for the purpose for which this Budget is raising taxation. What is the purpose? It is partly, no doubt, local taxation; but in the main it is national security and the setting up of a provident fund for old age, sickness, invalidity, and unemployment. Is it too much to ask that when there is an Increment Tax upon mines that a share of that should go to the provident fund to provide for the miners, amongst others? I say that the division which is suggested, the equal division between the locality and the national fund, is a perfectly fair one. Coming to the way in which the Amendment proposes to carry out the proposal, it would be perfectly impossible to accept that Amendment in its present form or in the present position.
The original Amendment?
Of course; with regard to the other, I object to it altogether. When hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House support the Amendment to get the whole, I observe that those who are opposed to my getting the tax at all are the more insistent that it ought all to go to the locality. This particular Amendment will not altogether carry out the wishes of those who desire that the money should go to the locality. In the first place, I think in its form it rather applies to England and Wales than to the whole country. I rather think it ought to take another form. I am quite clear if this has got to be done it must be done by a separate and distinct provision in the Bill, and I trust that my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment to a Division. I am much obliged to him for raising the matter, because I think it is a question upon which we ought to have a discussion in order to give the Government an opportunity of making perfectly clear that we intend that this tax shall be allocated to local purposes. But if decision were given at this stage it would embarrass the Government in making the proposal which they intend to make later on in a substantive form for dealing with this sum of money. Therefore I trust my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment, and I make the same appeal to those who are anxious that the money should be given to the localities, and to the hon. and learned Member for Waterford, who is distinctly anxious that Ireland should have an opportunity of expressing her opinion as to the method of taking her share. The municipalities also would like an opportunity of expressing their views. I understand they are formulating proposals at the present moment. I think it would be a mistake, either before the Government, or before the municipalities have had an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon the allocation, to commit ourselves either way as to the method proposed. It would embarrass not only the Government, but embarrass the Committee and hon. Members themselves. Therefore it would be much better to leave the dealing with the money for local purposes in its present stage. I hope the Committee wll be satisfied, after the discussion that has taken place, that the Amendment should be withdrawn, with a view to a subsequent proposal being laid upon the Table. I will undertake on behalf of the Government that it shall be done.
The right hon. Gentleman has just told us that this Amendment has afforded the Government a very valuable opportunity to announce their intentions and decisions to the Committee. I will venture to say that this Amendment seems to me to have afforded an admirable opportunity to the Government of changing their minds and re-casting their proposals. When I listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman I could not help thinking, without any disrespect to the Member for Bolton, that he had for the moment forgotten that he had been translated from a less responsible position below the Gang-way to a position of much greater responsibility above the Gangway, and that he really was making the speech which the hon. Member for Bolton would have made if he had had the materials of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was a complete advocacy for the change in the scheme as proposed by the hon. Member for Bolton.
I desire to comment on one very singular effect in connection with our Debate. I do it in the hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be good enough to take it into his consideration in any decisions he may have hereafter to arrive at. Let me say at once, I am not suggesting on the part of the Chancellor or his colleagues or of anybody else any unfair action in the matter. I know it is entirely the accidental result of our procedure of yesterday. It is generally admitted in all quarters of the House that it is the duty, as is the privilege, of the Opposition to have a full opportunity to criticise and propose Amendments. To-day the ordinary Opposition have not had the opportunity of moving one single Amendment, except two drafting Amendments. I quite recognise the difficulties of the Government, but this Amendment and the two substantial Amendments that preceded it came from the Government side. That, I think, to be most objectionable, and I call the attention of the Chancellor to it because I believe it to be a result he himself would deprecate, viz., that the limit of time at our disposal is lessened by this procedure. We are now embarked under this Amendment on the discussion of a question the gravity and the difficulty of which cannot be exaggerated. They have been admitted by everybody who has spoken to-night, who has any ordinary knowledge of this most complicated question. They have been admitted by the Chancellor, who, although he is prepared to accept the principle of the Amendment, has been obliged to point out, and I think with very great prudence and wisdom, that it is impossible for him to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member, because it is necessary if the principle of that Amendment is to be given effect to, that much fuller and more carefully considered proposals must be made at a subsequent stage.
This is not one of the questions we should have raised. The right hon. Gentleman knows that amongst all the Amendments there are some to which those who were giving special attention to the Bill direct their attention. This is not one of those which we on this side of the House would have asked the House to consider. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean, who was familiar with his subject, was good enough this evening to attribute to me a knowledge about it which I cannot claim to possess. During the many years I have been in the House, including the great part of my official life, it was my lot to be very closely associated with the question. I venture to say that the task which the Chancellor has undertaken is one which, when he has time to consider, he will find he cannot perform. That is a reason I should not have advised my colleagues or any of my hon. Friends on this side to raise as a question of practical politics. To suggest that you can transfer this money out of Imperial sources to the relief of local taxation with any fair result to the different classes of taxpayers is to make a suggestion that nobody acquainted with the local taxation Debates for the last forty years, or the legislation on the subject, would venture to make.
In the Local Government Acts of 1888 we endeavoured to deal with the question, and everybody in the House at that time will remember the difficulties with which we were confronted, and for which we were not able to find a solution. I am talking now of the Government of that day. The ultimate result was we arrived at a sort of compromise. The Member for the Forest of Dean told us to-night if the Amendment of the hon. Member for Bolton were to be adopted it would result in falling back upon the clumsy methods which we adopted at that time. Why did we adopt that method? Because the whole intellect of the House of Commons, given though it was frankly and fully to the consideration of this question, could not find a better method at that time. He reminded us that this is not a question which divides party, or is in the ordinary sense controversial. All parties approaching it seem agreed that local taxation requires relief. Some say that relief is to be found by this form of taxing land. Others think, as I think, that to tax land in order to aid local taxation is only to add to the difficulties and to accumulate the injustice. When a Government comes forward, finds a sum of money, and asks Parliament to help to allocate it, everybody accepts the I money willingly enough, nobody is ever reluctant to take money when it is offered, and, having got it, everybody does their best to find the best way of distributing it amongst the various classes of ratepayers. In 1888 the House honestly engaged on that question. I frankly acknowledge we received assistance from all quarters of the House, but we had to fall back on what the right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. W. Dilke) called the clumsy method, which I admit to be a clumsy method. The position of the Government of to-day is in this respect absolutely extraordinary. When I look at the Chancellor of the Exchequer I find it difficult to realise that he is the same man whom I watched on a corner below the Gangway, and to whom I listened denouncing us for giving doles to landlords by granting money out of the taxes to the relief of the rates. Where is this money going? Is there to be some mysterious addition or new clause which will prevent anybody who is a landlord, whether large or small, from receiving any contribution in respect of his rates out of this money? Are you going to make this a dole for somebody else than landlords by some mysterious legislation of which we have never yet heard? How are you going to avoid doing that which you denounced the other day as a high crime and misdemeanour, namely, taking money out of the public Exchequer and handing it over as a dole to the people who really benefit by the relief of the rates?
I denounced the right hon. Gentleman's proposal because he gave the money to agricultural land and agricultural land alone. The contention I put forward, as representing a borough constituency, was that the traders and shop keeps were heavily rated, and that if there was any money going they ought to have their share.
Of course, I have no desire in any way to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman. But I must point out that the contention to which he now refers opens up a very large question, to which I do not want to refer to-night. If we are to discuss not only the general question of the relief of rates out of the Exchequer, but also the question which immediately arises, and which you will have to settle if you are going to deal with this matter under the present Bill, namely, how you are to distribute the money between urban and rural taxpayers, we shall get to a very large question, which I forbear, even in the face of the temptation offered me by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from entering upon. Apart from that, the Chancellor of the Exchequer tells us that all he did was to draw a comparison between urban and rural. But he proposes that this shall be done under some method by which the money shall be distributed over an area far wider than the mere town or community where the wealth is created. What is the rest of the country? It is the rural districts, and in those rural districts the landlord will be the same landlord as he was only the other day. The rate will come from a different source, but it will go in the same direction. Therefore, I am amazed at the change which we find in Gentlemen opposite who are prepared to-day to regard as a virtue that which they declared was a hideous vice when proposed by their opponents.
But there is something else to be said. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us just now that he does not like this system of grants in aid. The Prime Minister dealt with this matter very plainly when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1906. From 1906 to 1909 is not a very long period, and one would have thought that it was not unreasonable to ask that the Government should pursue a consistent course during so short a time. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has an overwhelming majority. He can make almost any proposal he likes and take with him into the Lobby a sufficient number of Members to make his position secure. Therefore he cannot have done this out of fear. He and his Friends are always telling us that the Budget is most popular in the country, and that they only long to go to their constituents to prove how popular they and the Government are. Therefore there is no sordid motive, such as fear of being beaten, for suddenly changing their mind. But they have changed their mind, because everything the Chancellor of the Exchequer said to-night was a condemnation of what was said before in advocating this tax as a national tax. He has abandoned all the grounds on which he originally rested. This money was already virtually in the purse of the Exchequer; it was a new contribution which he had got for public purposes. But he has abandoned it, and how has he done so? By a good plan or a bad plan? I call the Prime Minister as my witness. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, for some reason which I cannot understand, has taken a departure which is really indefensible in the light of past experience. The Prime Minister used these words—they received universal approval, and remember they were cheered by hon. Gentlemen opposite:— greatness of this Budget, and upon the magnificence of the right hon. Gentleman's discoveries, but here we are to-night dealing with this question of local taxation in the most reactionary manner. I do not believe in the system of taxation proposed under this clause, but I am not considering that now. We are dealing now only with the various Amendments by which it is to be brought into force. I disagree with it, but everybody agrees whether they like Increment Tax, or whether they dislike it, that whatever money you get you ought to apply equally and justly to the relief of your national burdens. Here you are going to tax realty in order to relieve realty. You are going to say to a man who is already heavily overburdened, and who is paying more than he ought, "We admit your grievance that realty, as compared with personalty, is most unfairly burdened; we accept the conclusions at which most of the various Commissions have arrived, and we are going to give you relief. But how? By taxing you again. We are going to relieve you as a ratepayer." The matter has only to be stated to show the ridiculous position we are in. How are you going to do this? You are going to give half of the proceeds to the local rates. The Chancellor himself told us that so conscious was he and so alive was he to the practical difficulties of the case that he asked the hon. Member who moved the Amendment to withdraw it, in order that the proposals might be brought up in another form. I do not know whether the hon. Member is going to withdraw; he painted his picture in such lurid colours earlier in the evening that I cannot conceive him withdrawing unless he gets something more definite. The Chancellor called upon him to withdraw because he is not prepared with the machinery. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean told us the whole thing depends upon the machinery. You are going to give a certain sum of money which you take from the Imperial Exchequer by throwing it to the local authority without deciding how it is to be distributed. That is a proposition which can hardly be regarded as serious by business men. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in repudiating some fancied interruption from this side of the House, spoke of certain crude and mountainous districts far from the maddening crowd, where life was so hard and dreary that the relief of taxation would come as a benefit. I should like to know whether the Chancellor, with the splendid assistance he is getting from the Treasury, has made any calculation as to the amount of relief that the residents on the mountain side will get out of this. The Chancellor knows perfectly well that the residents on the mountain side, or the occupants of the small houses, will not have the smallest idea that any change has taken place. The right hon. Gentleman knows when you are dealing with the local taxation of this country you can give two millions or three millions in relief of taxation without the individual ratepayer hardly even knowing the money was paid. The amount per individual ratepayer is almost infinitesimal. I remember hearing the Chancellor of the Exchequer impress upon the House with great force and absolute truth that unless you distributed this money with the utmost care, and unless you dealt with these difficult problems of taxation with as close examination as possible, the result of your distribution would be to give the relief where it was least wanted, instead of where it was most needed. And yet we are asked to vote blankly for this alteration in the matured plans of the Government which have been carefully considered. Those plans, which are part of this great historic Budget, and which it is claimed will rank among the half-dozen great Budgets of the last century, are now to be torn up, without the Committee knowing in the least how this money, when it has been got, is going to be distributed. It is a matter of small importance to me whether the Amendment of the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. Harwood) is withdrawn or not. I do not look upon it as a practical Amendment in regard to any Finance Bill, but I consider it as a mere academic Resolution opening up possibilities which certainly ought not to be followed by action on the part of any Government. We have to-night only touched the fringe of the question, because we know nothing of the way in which the money is going to be dealt with. We all agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that when the money has been raised it has got to be spent. I certainly shall not vote for the Amendment to the Amendment, under which the whole of this money is to go to the locality in which it is raised in a way which I do not understand. I also find great difficulty in voting for the Amendment of the hon. Member for Bolton, which I regard as dangerous, because of its abstract character. The hon. Member spoke of a great deal of injustice, and with much eloquence he told us of the wrongdoings of those who have taken the money out of the pockets of the poor people who had made that wealth. Let him take consolation in the fact that there is such a thing under the Income Tax as conscience money, and in that way let the money be restored to those who have been so grievously wronged. My withers are unwrung. I regard this Amendment as ill-considered, and I am amazed at the hasty acceptance of it by the Government.
We have not accepted it.
I am dealing with the principle of it, and I am more amazed at the acceptance of it, because the Government have not thought it necessary to tell the Committee how they propose the money, when got, shall be applied for the relief of the taxpayer, whose benefit it ought to be devoted to.
This Increment Tax was known some years ago by another name. It was then called betterment, and the difficulty which those who advocated it experienced was how to bring it within a ringed fence, so as to benefit that particular district from which it was derived. After twenty years consideration we are now in a position by which we are likely to benefit from that idea. Who will contend to-day that betterment is localised? Who will contend for one moment that the betterment derived from the trade of London is localised and that London alone benefits? Who will contend that the trade which is done by the Manchester Ship Canal benefits Manchester alone? There can be no doubt that trade that goes to Manchester, London or Plymouth benefits the country as a whole. I have heard to-day from the opposite side that this Increment Tax is a new tax. It is nothing of the kind. It has been going on in this country for years and years. In every quinquennial assessment ratepayers pay on the increased value of their premises. The poor tenant is the sufferer. The landlord does absolutely nothing. Some 30 years ago accommodation land was bought for £2 an acre. A builder comes along, and offers the Ecclesiastical Commissioners £20 an acre; and—
I do not understand that this has anything to do with the Amendment.
I understand that we are discussing the Increment Tax; and I understand that some part of it is to be appropriated to local taxation and some part to Imperial taxation. I think that I am in order. Too long have tenants suffered. A large portion of the increment value is to go to old age pensions and to the amounts that will be required under the new Poor Law system to whatever object the duty may be allocated, undoubtedly you cannot narrow it down or localise it: it belongs not to the locality, but to the country as a whole, and whether the property be in the coal fields, or on the Yorkshire moors, it must be treated as belonging to the country and not to the individual district from which the increment is derived.
If there were any subject in connection with the Finance Bill which we might assume had been considered by the Minister responsible for it before it was presented to the House of Commons it surely is the one we are discussing to-night. But apparently that is not the case, because yesterday on an Amendment which had nothing whatever to do with it we were suddenly told that the Government had changed their mind. It is always convenient for a Minister to make a compromise—that is, I suppose, what the Chancellor of the Exchequer is doing in this case—but it is often very difficult to justify the compromise on any logical basis. If you take the view, expressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in one part of his speech, that this increment value is due to work which the local authority has carried out in the form of municipal enterprise, then obviously it belongs to the local authorities. On the other hand, if you take the view that this betterment is a result arrived at by the community at large, then on what principle are you going to divide it among local authorities? The Chancellor of the Exchequer says it has the attributes of a grant in aid. I should like to know what is the difference. If he will tell us that what he is going to do is to give to the local authorities in proportion to the amount which they contribute, then it may be different to a grant in aid; but obviously he is going to do nothing of the kind. He is going to collect it, and he is going to distribute it throughout the country in any way he pleases. Then what difference is there between that and any other form of taxation? He may say that he is distributing this particular tax, but for all that a particular locality knows he may be distributing half the income of it. Therefore those who are in favour of giving it to the localities consider that they have got nothing out of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman, in the very interesting and characteristic speech which he delivered, said localities should get something of it, because of what they did, and he gave as an instance the Manchester Ship Canal. I wonder if he listened to the speech of the Noble Lord behind me, who pointed out that in every case which you can name this increment is really gained by the energy of particular individuals. Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer realise that all he is going to give to Manchester is the share of what it has contributed to the Ship Canal? But what is he going to give to the shareholders who contributed nine-tenths of the capital? The speech of the right hon. Gentleman, with all the references to the outlying garrison on the bleak mountain and the rest of it, might have been presented in a single sentence, and the keynote was given in the first sentence he addressed to the Committee. He said, referring to my Noble Friend behind me, "The Noble Lord has not been very helpful to us in regard to these taxes." He is beginning to realise that before he has done he will need help. He actually expected to get it from the Opposition. He knows that is impossible; we do not disguise it. He knows that is impossible, but he has thought that he can get rid of some part of the opposition by dividing with the localities the plunder which he takes from other people.
Considering that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has accepted the principle of the Amendment, and has promised that the House shall have an ample opportunity of discussing how that principle should be applied, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
On a point of order, Sir, I wish to know whether the business before the Committee is not an Amendment to the Amendment to leave out the words "one-half of"?
I was just going to say that before the original Amendment. is withdrawn we must dispose of the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
I am quite prepared to agree to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend. The whole evening seems to me to have been spent in an unreal Debate, and if we are not to deal with the matter seriously, then I, for one, would have been glad not to have intervened at all. I shall be glad to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
Leave to withdraw was refused.
Question, "That those words stand part of the proposed Amendment," put, and agreed to.
Leave to withdraw was refused, so the
Amendment put, and negatived.
moved to leave out the words, "or a proportionate part thereof."
The effect of the Amendment will be that unless there was £5 of actual increment to pay the duty of £1, the Increment Duty would not arise, and no sum would be payable. If this Increment Duty, which is admittedly going to be a very serious hardship and inconvenience to a large number of owners of property, is to be collected, it ought certainly not to be imposed on the large number of very small owners of very small property. There will be a great deal of trouble and annoyance and work in assessing all these different values and arriving at the exact amount which is payable, in some cases, perhaps, as little as sixpence, and all the expenses involved would be quite out of proportion to the amount collected. A very shrewd suggestion was made in the course of our Debate yesterday that the real object of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to get at two or three Dukes and others who have enormous estates. The object of this Amendment is not to do that. If there is a substantial increment every sovereign will be collected. The sole object of the Amendment is to protect the thousands of small owners, who otherwise would be subjected to trouble and expense out of all proportion to the wretchedly small amount collected. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has already agreed to insert the word "complete" in the section, and if he were to agree to leave out the words "or a proportionate part thereof" the result would be that unless there was a sum of £5 the duty would not be payable, and these small owners would be relieved from the burden.
Question proposed: "That the word 'or' stand part of the clause."
I think the hon. Member has not quite accurately read the section. If he reads the section a little more carefully he will see that the words "or a proportionate part thereof" refers not to £5, but to the whole duty. They refer to the minor interest less than the fee-simple in order that the duty may be collected from the smaller interest.
If the Attorney-General will assure the Committee that unless there is a £5 increment no duty will be charged at all I shall withdraw the Amendment at once, because I have no intention of arguing a point which is not really raised. Unless we get that assurance it would be necessary to exclude these words in order to prevent the Government from collecting duty on a smaller amount than £5.
My hon. Friend's Amendment is required for a different purpose. It is required in order to prevent the duty being on the whole value when only a portion of the value is intended to be subjected to duty. My hon. Friend has raised an important question on which I should like to have a little more information from the Government. Is it the intention of the Government that even so small an increment as £5 shall be subjected to this tax? Is there to be no exemption from this tax except in a case where the total increment concerned is less than £5. I ask the question because the Chancellor of the Exchequer at several stages of our proceedings has laid particular stress on the example of foreign countries. This afternoon he referred to the special case of Frankfort. Some controversy arose between my hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Leverton Harris) and the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the Frankfort example. My hon. Friend disputed the accuracy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's description, and the learned Attorney-General said that my Friend himself was inaccurate; but he gave us certain information—not the whole information, but quite sufficient for our then purposes, and for my present one—about the Frankfort example. Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer quotes him. Is he prepared to follow him? The Frankfort example is pertinent to this point, because it provides that unless the increment amounts to 15 per cent, on the original capital value there is to be no tax at all.
On a point of order—I would rather not raise it—but the right hon. Gentleman is proceeding to discuss a question which has absolutely nothing to do with these words at all. They arose on the word "complete £5." The question which I understand he is putting is whether any increment under £5 would be charged at all. I am prepared to say it would not; but, at any rate, the point has nothing whatever to do with these words.
I must say I cannot read these words as having any connection at all with the £5.
May I be allowed to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, and accept at once the assurance of the Government that they do not intend to levy a tax upon any increment less than £5?
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
moved to leave out paragraph ( a ).
I wish to call attention to the serious inconvenience and the impracticability of the whole suggestion if this paragraph ( a ) is retained. The leading principle in paragraph ( a ) is that on the occasion of any transfer or sale of the land, or any interest in the land, this Increment Duty shall be assessed and shall be payable. We are obliged to look into subsequent clauses of the Bill to see exactly how that duty is to be collected upon the transfer. The proposal which the Government make, taking the first words of sub-section ( a ) is that on every transfer of land or interest in it this duty should be assessed, the amount should be ascertained, and that it should be paid by means of a stamp, which is to be affixed to the conveyance. For the greater part of my life I have had to do with the transfer of land, and I claim with the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, who is also of the legal profession, to have some little practical experience in the transfer of land. I am, therefore, not in any way raising a point which I do not understand, or which I do not wish to be taken seriously into consideration. Take a case that arises every day, that of an estate laid out for building purposes in the immediate neighbourhood of a town. I have had in my office as many as 25 conveyances in one afternoon in connection with estates of that description. For convenience such conveyances are carried out on a printed form; abstracts of the whole of the documents connected with the conveyance are printed, and all that is required is the name of the purchaser, the exact number of square yards, the exact amount of the conveyance money, and a little plan on the back to show the exact position of the land. Here you have the whole machinery which is wanted. The effect of having it in that simple form is expedition and the facilitating of the conveyance of land in suburbs for the purpose of being built upon. I make bold to say that any interference with that beneficent process, under which the toilers in the slums of our cities are provided in the suburbs with salubrious dwellings, would be a most serious blow to the spreading of most of our cities, and it is not to be embarked upon by Parliament without the most serious consideration and without the necessity for it being absolutely imperative. Take an estate which is dealt with every day, say one of 30 acres laid out in building. A very large sum of money has to be found for that purpose. It may be that a contract has been entered into with the owner, and that it is not going to be carried out for seven or eight years. The people who take up that land get advances, and take up their conveyances in small lots, and from time to time the houses are built. The person who buys that land has to find about fifteen or twenty thousand pounds for the purposes of development—to lay out in making streets, passages, sewers, and so on. About 25 per cent, of the area is consumed in making those streets and passages, and the fifteen or twenty thousand pounds are spent on the buildings. The nature of that land is entirely altered, and after the streets, etc., are constructed, the next step is—and the case I have in mind is a firm of which one of the hon. Members opposite, a Member of the Government, is a leading member—that the firm sell about a quarter of that land to a large builder. He proceeds to make advances to various gentlemen, and in our city of Liverpool they are mostly compatriots of the right hon. Gentleman who do this, and they build five or six little rows of houses. The conveyances have to be taken out when the people can raise the money to do so. They have got to find mortgagees. That money will not wait. They have got to take it at the time when it is ready for investment. If they cannot afford to do that they have got to pay interest during the intervening period. The total profit will probably not amount to more than £10 per house.
The front portion of that property, which abuts on the main road, has got a very considerable increment. Instead of being bought originally at 4s. 6d. per yard the line along the front has sold for thirty-three, thirty-four, or thirty-five shillings per yard to build shops. The pieces, of land at the corners of each of the cross, streets have got an entirely different increment, and also the small pieces immediately adjoining the high road from the houses and lands in the back street of the estate. I suggest that if this clause is passed the pieces of land I have described would have the most extraordinarily different and divergent kinds of increment. Supposing I was face to face with the taking out of twenty conveyances on an estate like that, the increment of each of those would probably be different, but it will have to be ascertained and found out exactly. Who is going to do it? Where is the staff either in London or Liverpool, or any other centre, that is going to work out the proportion of increment that is to be put upon each of those different parts of that one estate. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer insists upon the duty being ascertained and entered upon the conveyance by way of a denoting stamp, mortgagees will not advance a penny until they get the conveyance. The suggestion that a deposit should be made is impracticable from a business point of view; the people very often have not the margin to make a deposit. There are Amendments on the Paper with the object of providing a way out of the difficulty. One, standing in my name, was suggested by one or two of the leading solicitors in England, and approved, after alteration, by a leading surveyor. The suggestion is that in order to help these transactions through it should be possible for the owner of an estate to go in advance, have the increment assessed, and get the duty cleared off the whole estate; he could then proceed to make the conveyance without being bothered with these difficulties. But that, though a palliative, is not a real way out of the difficulty, because it will not get rid of the allocation of the duty on different portions of the estate. The increment is different on different lots, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer adheres to the proposition that on every transfer of land the increment shall be assessed and entered upon the conveyance, it will be absolutely impossible to carry out the Act. The attempt to enforce it would render it impossible to deal with I estates for building purposes, as they are now dealt with. The business of developing properties for building takes a large amount of capital. The loss of interest for years, the amount spent in making the land available, the money required for the construction of roads, and so on, have all to be taken into account. If the duty is insisted upon, and the method of collection adhered to, it will drive capital out of this class of business altogether, make the expansion of our cities, and the relief of slums more difficult, and cause such serious annoyance to all concerned that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be one of the first to regret that he ever embarked on so astounding a proposition.
Question proposed, "That the words in paragraph ( a ) down to the second 'of' ["on the occasion of any transfer or sale of"] stand part of the clause."
The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has pointed out in an exceedingly interesting speech some practical difficulties in connection with the levying of the Increment Duty. I ask him to believe that these have not been outside the minds of the Government in devising this measure, and to a large extent we hope they have been met. If they have not been met, then there may be occasions when it will be appropriate and welcome for the hon. Member to point out the deficiency. Everyone realises the difficulties in connection with the transfer and the sale of land, and the inconvenience of any undue delay on the part of the Government, and it is just because of that that the Government have laid down the provisions whereby, as they think, this delay will be avoided, and, by a kind of interim acceptance of the bargain, future payments and adjustments established. If that is not satisfactory, then I would venture to submit that it is on these clauses and under these suggestions that criticism should be advanced. The hon. Gentleman talked about the amount of money that is laid out in the development of estates. I am sure I am speaking for the Chancellor of the Exchequer when I say that one of the chief objects of this Bill is scrupulously to avoid any injury to the business of estate development in this country. We endeavour in the specified clauses to safeguard the money which has been spent on bonâ fide estate development from coming under the scope of the increment duty at all.
I did not suggest that.
No one, certainly no representative of the Government, ever questioned that there might be practical difficulties. The whole point of this Amendment, however, is something much wider than dealing with practical difficulties. The question of taking increment value is not the subject for discussion. The subject for discussion is, granted that it has to be taken, what is the most satisfactory time to take it? There are various ways suggested in this clause. There have been various attempts in various countries, as my right hon. Friend pointed out this afternoon, to take that increment value at different times.
You may take it at the death of the may take it after periodic valuation. The objection to that, and one which seems to be very strong, is that although you may declare that the value is realisable at the time you may be challenged by the person from whom the increment is demanded, and that demands also a periodic valuation of the country at the time the increment value is taken. The objection which hon. Members opposite offer to any valuation would be still stronger if you had to value the country at periods of ten or fifteen years. The majority of the Committee will agree that the system adopted in Germany is the fairest when you take the increment at the time the man who has to pay it has the money in his own hands. He has received an increment he did not expect; he will have received an unearned increment, and of this increment he is asked to give one-fifth in the shape of a tax to the national exchequer, of which one-half is to go to the local authorities. It is rather necessary, I think, to point out that one of the complications suggested by the hon. Gentleman is not so real as he supposes, that is dealing with the various kinds of sites. It is necessary again and again to emphasise in these discussions that increment value is on site value only, and, therefore, that sites adjacent to each other, and with the same value, however different the variety of the buildings, or even if there were no buildings on one and buildings on another, would be subject to the same increment value. It will be demonstrated in further discussions that it is the intention of the Government to proceed from one site value to another, and the Government believe that that is fully provided for in the Bill. Under these circumstances, and considering the Government have very carefully excluded any increment before the valuation, and that only one-fifth is taken after the new valuation on site value, and that it is unearned, I think the Committee will agree it is an extremely proper time to take that increment when the individual has actually received the cash.
I am sure all of us upon this side of the House are most anxious to acquit the Government of any desire to take this tax at any but the most appropriate and convenient time. If we begin by admitting it is the most appropriate and convenient time, and if we continue to say that this most appropriate and convenient time is a time without any approach to justice or convenience of the business community, I think we shall have gone a long way to reduce it to its proper level. The hon. Gentleman says that because the value is on sites only, and not upon buildings or structures, therefore on the adjacent sites the value would be the same.
I said it would be a much simpler matter when dealing with sites which are adjacent.
Simpler than what? Simpler than some other conundrum? It is possible it may be simpler than something, but it would be something that would be extraordinarily complicated. If the hon. Gentleman looks at Clause 2, he will see the beginning of the process that is to be carried out when arriving at this valuation. His remarks as to the bearing of Clause 14 upon this question is quite beside the point. The valuation which has to be made under Clause 14 is upon the original site value. But what has all that got to do with the question? The Government do not seem to understand the effect of what they are doing. Here is an Amendment which is moved on the ground of the gross inconvenience and trouble which is going to be caused to the business community by a particular valuation which has to be made at the time when the tax is assessed, and the hon. Member defends that by proving upon a totally different valuation made at a different time for a different purpose.
The two valuations are the same.
That is not so, and I can show that the two valuations are upon a totally different basis. Under Section 14, the valuation is one which has to be made by simply imagining what has been described as the prairie value, and you have to imagine everything off the land, and that is your method now. In the other valuation you have something quite different. Under Clause 2 you have, first of all, to deduct "the value attributable to the value of the buildings." What does that mean? I have been unable to interpret that, and I have been anxiously waiting for it to be explained. You have also to deduct "any other deductions allowed under the Act," and you have to hunt through the Act to find them. You have also to deduct "goodwill" and "anything personal to the occupier of the property, or any other person interested." It will take the hon. Gentleman some time to discover who all the persons are who are interested in any particular property. All these processes have got to be gone through under the valuation provided by Section 2, and it is obvious that the process is one which will not be uniform or similar in regard to two plots of land which may be quite adjacent to one another.
It is clear and obvious, as was pointed out by the Noble Lord, the Member for Marylebone (Lord Robert Cecil), that individual enterprise is often the largest factor in the improvement of any property. You may have in one district some particular individual who will, on his own particular piece of land, erect some kind of property which will improve all property in the neighbourhood. When you come to assess this man's property he will have the benefit of the deduction of the money he has spent, but the other people who own the surrounding property will not get the benefit of that deduction. Every individual will have to show how far his particular expenditure has benefited his particular plot of land, and all this has to be considered before you can arrive at the taxable increment, which you call unearned, upon any one particular plot of land. All these processes have to be gone through. This is really a stamp duty. The Government are never tired of talking of the difficulties and the cost of transfer, but here you have a stamp duty of 20 per cent, upon every sale and transfer of land. Really we should let the country understand that in regard to every prospective seller or purchaser of a plot of land the Government are assisting him either to sell or purchase his land by a stamp duty of 20 per cent, on a sum to be ascertained by a process of unexampled difficulty which has never been attempted anywhere else before. This must make the sale and transfer of land so difficult and arduous in the future that it will have a most serious effect. The amount of money which this tax is going to produce will be nothing to the inconvenience and loss which will be caused to the community. You are proposing to touch industry on its tenderest point when it is a bargain between one man and another. It is a question where one man is going to try and get it, and he is considering whether he will have it or not. The other man is considering whether he will part with it or not. You make a difficulty in the case of every transfer or lease. You say that is for the benefit of industries; but I would sooner pay three times the amount in direct taxation than be subjected to these difficulties of bargaining, which may cost a £1 for every shilling of the tax. The object of the Amendment is to show the country what the real character of the impost 1s. You will find it more difficult to define it than to defend it, and it will hold you up to the ridicule of the country.
If an enterprising builder or estate agent buys 100 acres of land you will find that those particular 100 acres may have different values. Some may be near streets, some near trams, and so on. You may assume that the purchaser has parted with all the favourable acres. He may have parted with them for £600 or £700 an acre. He will have parted with all the plums, and there will be no increment on what he holds.
We have been very much surprised at the speech of the Under-Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. Masterman) in which he stated that if there were any injustice or interference with the transfer of land under this subsection he would be glad to have it pointed out to him. The hon. Gentleman has himself taken a very prominent part in land reform campaigns, and must be aware that there is general agreement among those who have any knowledge of the subject that what has hampered the transfer of land in this country has been the question of legal costs. Surely it must be obvious to the hon. Gentleman that this tax, should it become law, will enormously increase the interference which already exists and will prevent cheap and easy transfer. I hope the public will note the attitude of the Government on this point and will realise that the advocates of land reform are now supporting a proposal which will render land transfer enormously more costly in the future. I do not believe that there is any proposal in this Bill which will be more unpopular. I hope that an answer will be given to the very pertinent question put by the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Vivian). I regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not in his place; it is not right that these very complicated questions should be discussed in his absence and in that of the Prime Minister. This clause ought not to be pressed on at this hour of the night, and I hope that the Minister in charge of the Bill will favourably consider any motion that may be made to report Progress.
Not so many years ago, not so far from the walls of this Chamber, I myself developed a building estate—a landed estate. I did not wish to cover it with houses myself, and my first difficulty was to find builders to do it. Builders are not gentlemen with much money, certainly not in the case I am venturing to describe. It was a building estate, not of a high class character at all; only artisans' dwellings; and the builders had to be financed by myself rather a hazardous operation, as my only security was the bricks and mortar as the houses gradually grew upwards from the ground to the roof. The profit of the builder was very little indeed upon the houses themselves; his profit arose, not on the original ground rent, as that was mine, but from what is called in the trade the improved ground rent. Under this clause a most extraordinary difficulty and impediment in the way of executing the transfer of the property will occur. What happened in my case was that I granted agreements to lease the property to the builders; but the leases were not carried out until the builders found some one to take the houses off their hands. We now carried out the whole operation by one lease, and in that lease was mentioned, not the original ground rent, but the improved ground rent, or the amount by which it had been improved by the building. After the passing of this Bill, instead of there being one set of transactions, by which each house on the property would pass from the owner to the purchaser, there would have to be a double set of transactions throughout, because the moment the improved ground rent arose, then down comes the hand of the State, as I understand the operation of this clause, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer says: "an increment arises here and the State must have a fifth part of that increment." The hon. Gentleman who responded for the Government called that an unearned increment, but in this case it is the builders' only profit. I am not talking of the owner, but the builder has no other profit on the whole transaction. He gets no money out of the building of the house; his whole profit is the improved ground rent. Is it really fair in the case of a man of this class, not an opulent man, but one who works for his living—is it fair that in the case of a builder who is running a great risk in a matter of this kind, and whose only profit is the improved ground rent, that the State should put forth its hands and take from him one-fifth part of his scanty profit in a transaction of this nature? Not only is it, in my opinion, unfair, but it complicates the transaction so enormously. Before the builder can pass on the house to the purchaser the State has to be called in to assess in every single instance the increment value. You are going to paralyse business. To come back to the illustration I gave, it would have been impossible ever to get the matter to a conclusion if it had been hampered throughout with increment duty.
Is not the whole of the improved ground rent due to the money the owner has spent in building houses, and is not part of the money refunded out of the improved ground rent?
Oh, not at all. The improved ground rent is the property of the builder for the labour and the trouble, the expense and brains he has put into it, and the risk if the house remains unoccupied. I am a poorer man, and not a richer, for anything I have had to do with building estates. The more one looks into the byways as well as the highways of the Bill, the more one sees that there will be extraordinary difficulty in the working. I have always understood that hon. Members opposite sincerely desire to facilitate the transfer of land, but by this you will impede in every way the development of building estates. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman before he puts words of this kind irrevocably into the Bill to consider how disastrous the effect will be upon the prompt and speedy development of properties of this character.
The hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Vivian) has put a very pertinent query, which I think he will find dealt with in clause, 2, sub-section 3. It is a clause which might very easily escape attention. The case put by my hon. Friend is that mainly of the value attaching to the property of a man who has bought a piece of land, and which, being afterwards divided up, has different degrees of value or interest. That section deals with the apportionment of such a transaction. I do not argue whether the apportionment there adopted is satisfactory or not, for I think that question does not arise on this Amendment. All that we are now doing is considering that which is the most satisfactory and convenient time for taking the tax. The Committee have already decided in the preceding words that the tax is to be imposed. In regard to the point put by the hon. Member for York (Mr. G. D. Faber), I do not think that what he suggested would be an entirely satisfactory mode of dealing with the difficulty. If he looks at clause 14, sub-section (4), he will see that the builders' interests have not been wholly neglected, and that, in respect of any value contributed of a permanent character for the purpose of fitting the land for trade or industry, there is to be a deduction from both the original site value and the value of the site when the tax comes to be imposed. I am not saying at present that that is enough, for it is a matter which will be much more effectively discussed when we come to clause 14. The criticisms of the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) on this proposal were entirely what I may call of a second reading character. Assuming that there is a tax to be imposed, he seemed to argue that its collection at the period of sale or transfer is the most convenient which could be adopted. That is the whole point of this Amendment. I can understand that he has very strong objection to the imposition of any tax whatever, but we have passed the words which impose the tax, and, however strong his arguments may be, I do not propose to deal with them on this Amendment. The hon. and gallant Member told us that the moment when the transfer is being effected and when the bargain is being completed is a delicate moment, and that the State interposes just at that very time to impose a tax which will undoubtedly add to the difficulties already existing in connection with the transfer of land. That argument is applicable not only to this tax, but to every tax that can be conceived, whether direct or indirect, in connection with commercial transactions. I think we may answer many of the arguments on this point by one simple and conclusive admission, namely, that if you put a tax on anybody you undoubtedly take money from somebody, and merely to prove that somebody will pay something under this tax is not a very lucid or satisfactory answer. The Government have selected the best possible moment for collecting the tax from the owner when they select the moment of his death. We might have adopted—if we followed precedent, of which we have heard so much—the plan of taking this tax on capital, not at the time of his death, but from year to year as it occurred. Now that would be a profoundly inconvenient and an extremely embarrassing mode of collecting the tax for the owners themselves, because they would have to pay it in advance on an amount not yet definitely ascertained, so the best method of taking from the owner is at the time of his death, and that is really the whole question at argument.
The learned Attorney-General has attempted to reply to three hon. Members, the hon. Members for Birkenhead (Mr. Vivian), York (Mr. Faber), and Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman). Those who listened to the speeches of the hon. Members for Birkenhead and York must agree that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman shows how very intricate and difficult a matter is the imposition of a Stamp Duty on the transfer of land. All he had to say was that he would not try to satisfy them now. He referred them to a later clause in the Bill. But when these questions come to be dealt with in practice people will have to be satisfied over these questions of transfer of land, and all these legal points will make their satisfaction a matter of great difficulty. For the 20 years that I have been in the House I have heard hon. Members on both sides urge that we ought to facilitate the transfer of land by cheapening it. Those who have brought in legislation to effect that purpose have heard subsequently that their wishes have not been fulfilled because of the great difficulty of the legal element in this question. I am not going to criticise the profession of the law, which the learned Attorney-General represents, but what has been said is that the aspiration of both parties to facilitate the transfer of land has been frustrated owing to the difficulties which legal gentlemen introduced into this matter. I think it is right to show the difficulties that are inherent in the subject, but not to create new ones. But you introduce an element of enormous difficulty when you place what is a large Stamp Duty on the transfer of land. That is what I have to say on the right hon. Gentleman's reply to the hon. Members for Birkenhead and York. But the learned Attorney-General addressed himself to the speech that had been made by the hon. Member for Chelmsford. He said it was a second reading speech, and amounted to a restatement of the objections to the duty upon increment. That is not so. The question raised by the Amendment of my hon. Friend is not only an important one, but it is a novel one. We have discussed whether there should be such a duty. We have discussed the amount of that duty, but we have not discussed, until this Amendment was moved by my hon. Friend, when the occasion for the imposition of that duty would be. It is very difficult to discuss that adequately without some enlarging of the field of discussion. It is a novelty to impose direct taxation of this character not only upon land but upon transfers. It is wholly different from the ordinary transfer duties which affect all kinds of property.
We have two novelties. The first is that direct taxation is laid on one kind of property, and the second is in having a new occasion for the imposition of a totally novel kind of tax. This is a great departure from all the fiscal precedents of this country. It is really not a matter on which the House of Commons should give a sudden and precipitate decision. When we discussed the imposition of the Death Duties the Government of that day defended the imposition of the new tax at death on the ground that it was most convenient. But now this new form of heavy direct taxation, applicable only to one kind of property, is to be imposed not only on the occasion of death but also on the occasion of any transfer. That is a novelty of great magnitude I do not think that has been sufficiently considered this evening. I ask hon. Members above and hon. Members below the Gangway what they think the effect of this novelty will be. Hon. Members below the Gangway have referred to the fact that a few men own a great deal of property in this country, and that many men have very little property. What will be the effect of this heavy Stamp Duty on transfers? There are only two classes. There is the man who has other property than land and there is the man who owns land around a town, the very case in which you wish to facilitate transfers. When a man who owns other kinds of property as well as land, and he wants £2,000 or £5,000 for some purpose, will he sell the property in securities on which he pays a small transfer duty, or will he sell the property in land, on which he has to pay a transfer duty relatively far higher than upon the transfer of any other kind of property? We may, and we do, differ as to the principle, but whatever the reason for it, whether it is based on Socialism, on municipal experience, or on practical experience, this duty is on the transfer of land, and it is a duty which only applies to the transfer of property of that kind and does not apply to the transfer of property of another character. The man who has both descriptions of property will preferably dispose of that which he can transfer for a smaller amount than he could in the case of landed property. But take the case of a man who owns only land. If he has to find £2,000 or £5,000, of course he will sell to the man who can give him a fancy price for his land, and that person will not belong to any class whose interests hon. Members below the Gangway have at heart. The Amendment before the House raises a new question of great magnitude—whether it is wise to impose a heavy duty on the transfer of land, and land alone.
If I correctly understood the question put by the hon. Member for Birkenhead, I do not think the Attorney-General dealt very satisfactorily with it. As I understood that question, it had no relation at all to the original site value. One speaks with diffidence of a Bill of such extreme difficulty as that we are considering, but it appears to me that by it a man who sells two parcels of land simultaneously, one at a loss and the other at a profit, will have to share the profit with the State and bear the whole loss himself, although the loss on one transaction may exceed the profit on the other. I regret that, we should be discussing an Amendment of this very great importance at such an hour (12.15 a.m.), because it is one of the most far-reaching of the Amendments we have yet considered. If it were carried it would have this effect—that this Increment Value Duty would become a Death Duty, and a Death Duty only.
As I understand the Bill, Increment Duty which is to be paid on each of these occasions is not the difference between the site value then and the original site value, but it is only so much of that difference as has not been paid by somebody else up to that time. That being so, what revenue should we lose by making this duty collectable by longer instead of shorter periods? I am assuming, as the Prime Minister evidently assumed, and as those who support this Bill calmly state, that the increment on land is constant and may be counted on with regularity, so that the longer you wait the more increment you get. If that is so, what revenue should we lose by collecting the increment only at death, missing out the intervening periods on which it is now to be collected and getting the whole duty in one lump. It is a commonplace amongst us all that it is desirable to facilitate the wholesome diffusion and transfer of land. There are statesmen who think that the fact of a twenty per cent, duty will not appreciably affect that operation. I am not a statesman but only a lawyer, and I will leave those great matters of policy and weighty questions of principle to those who are better able to discuss them. But there is an aspect of this Bill which greatly impresses me as a lawyer and a practical man. After all, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in humbler days, was also a lawyer and a practical man. He cannot have forgotten those days, and I am not without hope that as the Debate proceeds the importance of the question of machinery will force itself upon his mind. What will happen if this proposal is adhered to unamended? Take the case of a lease for over seven years, with one year still to run, where the landlord wants the premises to let them to somebody else, and the tenant is willing to give up that last year. As I read the Bill that simple transaction will involve the payment of three separate duties and three separate valuations. The tenant when he sells the last year to the landlord, will have to pay Increment Duty on the transfer; the lease thus coming to an end, the landlord will have to pay Reversion Duty; and then the Increment Duty will have to be paid on the creation of the fresh lease. It is not the cases of big estates which trouble me, where there has been a long period and a large increment, those are substantial matters, and this costly machinery will be worth applying.
The cases which trouble me are those with minute fractional increments. Where a man sells a field he will be bound to send the deed to Somerset House to be stamped if Increment Duty is payable. On the question of delay, the Secretary to the Treasury refers us to the machinery which exists to get over the difficulty to some extent; otherwise until the owner and the Government had finally settled the amount of the duty payable, and the sum had been paid, the matter could not go through—which would have been an intolerable state of things. It is sought to get over that difficulty by providing that when the transferor has supplied all the particulars to the Government and paid or secured the full outside amount of duty he could possibly be called upon to pay, the deed may be stamped. And who is the man who has to pay this sum? He is the transferor, the seller. I thought the principle of this Bill was that a man was to pay the tax when he made his profit. But under the new arrangement to which I am referring he has to pay the tax before he touches his money. We shall, at a later stage, go into the enormous intricacy and difficulty that all these valuations involve. There will have to be three separate ascertainments in each case. You have first to ascertain the site value on the occasion of the transfer. Then you will have to refer to what I call the Doomsday Book valuation of 1909 which will have to be made. You will find there, I suppose, some hundreds of thousands—or millions—of plots of land, each of which has two columns against it. These will describe, firstly, original total value; and, secondly, original site value. You will turn to these enormous documents, but you will not find your plot of land there. It has never been a separately valued item before. What you will find is that it consists of small portions of five or six different items. Each of these has got its separate site value, and in each of these cases you will have to discover how much of the site value of the plot in the register has to be apportioned to the particular plot. There will be a dispute between the owner and the Government about this. It will be based on the state of things that existed in 1909, because that is the criterion that has to be applied. When you have adjusted the difference between the original site value and the present site value, then the most difficult operation of the whole will still remain. That will be to ascertain how much of the Increment Duty has already been paid upon that particular plot.
But that particular plot has never existed as a separate item before. You will have to turn up five or six areas in Doomsday Book, which have all paid from time to time Increment Duty of different amounts, at different rates, some more, some less. Then you will have to apportion once more how much of those already paid amounts is to be apportioned to the small fraction of your area! [Laughter.] I do not understand why some of my hon. Friends should laugh when I give a simple and very easy illustration, because that is not a difficult case. It is an ordinary everyday case. This will go on between the small buyers and sellers of land. It is in view of these difficulties of machinery, and in view of the fact that in my humble judgment the Government will not lose one farthing of revenue if they confine themselves to large amounts, that I venture to suggest that it will be greatly in the interests of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say:—"I will collect my revenue in larger amounts and at longer periods," so that one may have a fairer proportion between the revenue you will get and the cost of collection.
I would like to point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that as regards Ireland you are not dealing with large landowners. Nearly all the property has been sold to tenants. It is they who under this particular section will be hard hit on the transfer of any of their land. I want to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how he intends to deal with land that is held by tenants in Ireland who pay to the Government over 68½ years? It appears to me to open up a wider vista than that suggested by my hon. Friend who has just sat down. Take one of those small farms of five or six acres close to an improving town. If that farm is sold after a certain number of annuities have been paid increment undoubtedly exists, but I do not think it would be possible to find out accurately what the value of that increment 1s. I hope the Irish law officers will explain to us how it is to be done. Take a town in Ireland where the surrounding tenantry have bought out under the Act of 1903, and supposing they have paid five or six years' annuities to the Government, they have created a certain increment in their farms, and the town which is prospering has further added to the increment, but it would not be extremely difficult to decide on the occasion of a transfer of the land the value of that increment. How many transactions of this kind does the Chancellor of the Exchequer think he would have to deal with in Ireland? It is all very well when you are dealing with estates of hundreds or thousands of acres, but how are these small tenants on the occasion of transfer to arrange all these details—to differentiate between increment value that arises from the payment of some of the years' annuities to the Government off the purchase money and the actual improvement created by the improvement in the value of property in the neighbourhood of the town. Take a case of a farm with a rental of £20. That sum represents not only the interest but the sinking which goes to the Government to recoup them for the loan. The actuarial work alone in that case would cost far more than the amount of the Increment Tax. We have had experience in Ireland of Commissioners coming down to examine land. Roughly speaking, three farms a day is as much as they can value, and the expense is enormous. Under this sub-section you have a most intricate job and you must provide an expert valuer for the purpose.
The duties will be so complicated that he man who is able to guide the tenants in regard to the transfer of the farms will have to be a combination of a really good Chancellor of the Exchequer, a land surveyor, and probably an actuary as well. How can a tenant satisfactorily arrange a transfer unless he calls in a skilled person, who will probably have to be a highly paid official. How many thousands of owners in Ireland will be affected by this proposal? This is not the case of the large land-owner, because there are far more small land-owners in Ireland than large ones. The expenses for the transfer of a large estate are in proportion very much smaller than in the case of the smaller farms of from 20 to 40 acres. The officials of the Government in Ireland have already told the people what the proper payment is for the transfer of a farm, and the Estates Commissioners have fixed the amount for the next 68½ years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer now comes along and practically says: "Those people appointed by the Chief Secretary said all you would have to pay would be £20, but I am going to step in now, and if you want to transfer your farm when there is a slight increment value you will have to pay that as well." The Government are breaking their bargain with the tenantry of Ireland. I submit it is not worth while to do this, and trouble will be caused by asking these poor people to bear the expense as well as the inconvenience. That will go on over the whole of Ireland. This is a business affecting the whole country, and I can assure the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this particular clause, which makes it more difficult to transfer farms, will make him a very unpopular man in the whole of Ireland. I am looking forward to another Irish land agitation in consequence of this tax. Everything was practically settled, and the farmers were satisfied, and now the right hon. Gentleman comes along and takes the advice of some one in St. James's-street, who knows nothing about Irish land at all, who deals with property in large towns, and knows all about site values in various localities in the City of London. For the right hon. Gentleman in this indirect way to stir up strife again in Ireland is most regrettable, and I shall certainly support the Amendment of my hon. Friend.
It is quite obvious that this Amendment cannot be decided without a reply from the Government, especially after the important speech from my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Clavell Salter) on this side of the House. The points which he raised are matters of the gravest importance to a vast number of people. At this time of the night (twenty minutes to One O'clock) it is impossible to carry on this discussion. The predecessors of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, even on a Finance Bill, which is not subject to the Eleven O'clock rule, have seldom kept the House sitting after Eleven O'clock. Therefore I beg to move that you report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.
I agree that this is a very important discussion, and that the hon. and learned Gentleman made a very interesting speech, but may I suggest that before Progress is reported the question of levying the duty at the time of the sale of the land shall be disposed of.
I do not think the Attorney-General will suggest that any answer has been given to our arguments on this Amendment. This is a vital point in the Bill, and surely the fact that it is a quarter to one in the morning does not justify Ministers in refusing an answer. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government ought to remember that we are a very small minority, and if irritation does arise it should not be forgotten that we are fighting under great difficulties and against great odds. The supporters of the Government go away for rest in relays; we are here all the time. I am not blaming the Government for that. It no doubt is right and proper. Hon. Members may laugh, but I would like to point out that our numbers here do not represent in any degree our numbers in the country. Under these circumstances to really ask the Committee to try to do this Bill properly and keep our attention upon it, when many of us have had to do some work in the early morning, is really depressing, and I put it to the right hon. Gentleman, who knows perfectly well what it is to carry out work of this kind, that pressing a matter of this sort at this hour of the morning, if this is to be the continuous way in which the proceedings are to be carried out, is likely to lead to great irritation under a sense of oppression on the part of those who are trying under difficult circumstances to discharge a very onerous duty towards the constituencies and the country. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman, in all fairness, that this speech of the hon. Member for Hants (Mr. Clavell Salter) ought to be answered, and answered deliberately and completely at a reasonable time. I appeal to him that after we have been here the whole of the week it is not unreasonable that he should assent to this Motion and allow this discussion to be resumed to-morrow.
I really do not understand the reason which the right hon. Gentleman puts forward in his appeal to me. Is this a Motion to report Progress because we abstained from replying to the very able speech of the hon. Member for Hants? If that is the reason, and the Motion to report Progress is withdrawn, I shall be very happy to give an answer to that speech. I really do not think that the right hon. Gentleman, who has himself conducted Bills through this House, if he looks at the Amendments, will think that the proposal I have submitted to the hon. Gentleman opposite is unreasonable. If I were to invite the Committee at this hour of the night to enter upon discussion of any new proposal he might, after three days' discussion, say that that was unreasonable. What I am asking the Committee to do is to deal with Amendments which I think can be cleared up in a very short time, and I do not ask them at all to proceed with any new proposal. I do not ask them to discuss anything which has not already been debated fully. The Amendments are not really Amendments of substance. The right hon. Gentleman has appealed to my sense of reason and fair play, but I might appeal to him and ask him, if he were conducting a Budget, whether mine is an unreasonable proposition?
The right hon. Gentleman is asking a good deal more than he realises, and there are important questions which he has over-looked. If once we get rid of this Amendment the speeches in regard to which the Government have not answered, then we are to proceed to another, and then when we have discussed that we are to take another. The right hon. Gentleman says he does not think this is unreasonable. It is wholly unreasonable to ask us at one O'clock in the morning to finish a matter of this importance, and still more unreasonable to ask us to proceed to entirely new matter. It is a monstrous proposal, and we will resist it to the utmost.
We have been discussing the whole of the machinery for carrying out the Act, and this new duty is to be collected on three occasions. We have been discussing only one of those occasions, and we have had no answer from the Government as to the great delay and difficulty in connection with the transfer of land. I can only come to the conclusion that the reason is that no reply is possible.
I think the Government would certainly have expedited business if they had given some satisfactory answer to those who have put questions before them. I do not believe there is a single Member who can tell you how the duty will be levied on property which is liable to this Increment Duty when it is sold, and how the conveyance is made out. The question of the hon. Member for Birkenhead as to property bought by one man and then cut up into portions and sold, and there is an increment on one part and a decrement on the other, has never been answered.
I do not see what this has to do with the Motion to report. Progress.
I support the Motion to report Progress for the very good reason that three questions have been asked—one of them by a supporter of the Government—and absolutely no answer has been given to them. I should have thought that was an argument, if ever there was one, in favour of adjourning the Debate in order that the Government might have time to think over the matter and be able to come down to the House to-morrow and state how, when the new duty comes to be levied, the transfer of land can be carried out in a quick, cheap, and efficient manner.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer staid just now that the Amendment of which I have given notice is formal. I must say that I do not regard it as in any sense formal. It refers to a difficult and delicate matter, and if I have to move it to-night I shall do so with a strong sense of hardship.
I wish to say as strongly as I can that I do not think the Amendment has been properly and sufficiently discussed. It is one of the most important Amendments to the Bill. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman realises how strong and genuine is the objection on the part of business men who have dealings in land to the machinery involved in this particular proposal. By accepting this Amendment the Government would not lose a penny of the revenue they are seeking to have. The only effect would be that they would take their revenue in larger instead of smaller instalments. I wish to take this opportunity of saying that many business men have written or come to me supporting the view which is embodied in the Amendment.
Is the hon. and learned Gentleman in order in discussing the Amendment on a Motion to report Progress?
The hon. and learned Gentleman is applying his remarks to the Motion to report Progress.
The arguments which have been brought forward ought to be answered before the Amendment is put to the Committee. I agree with the hon. Member for the Central Division of Sheffield (Mr. James Hope) that the Amendment of which he has given notice is by no means formal. By omitting the words "or any interest in the land" as he proposes, business would be simplified. I protest against the proposal to take that Amendment and also the Amendment of the hon. Member for Edinburgh to-night. It seems to me that the Amendment now before the Committee involves questions of great importance, and that we ought to have an opportunity of discussing them at a reasonable time and in a reasonable way.
I do not want to take up the time of the Committee, but I do want to put forward one other reason why we should now report Progress and ask leave to sit again. This very important Amendment has led to certain specific questions being put to Members of the Front Bench opposite. The learned Attorney-General replied to some of these questions, and he said they were answered partly but not entirely by clauses which followed in the Bill.
The hon. Member is not making a quotation from my speech. He is using very strong language with regard to what I said without any foundation. If he heard my remarks he might, I think, quote them with some approach to the truth.
I think I am in the recollection of the Committee when I say that the hon. and learned Gentleman said that the questions could not be answered satisfactorily.
What I said was that it might not be satisfactory to the Opposition, but it was in the Bill.
At all events the references which the hon. and learned Gentleman made to the latter parts of the Bill did not answer the questions. Well, in view of that it is very important—
"In view of what?"
It is very important that we should have a complete answer given to questions raised by an amendment of this nature. I think, therefore, it is in the interest of the Debate in general that we should now report Progress in order to give the Members of the Front Bench opposite time to consider these very intricate and very important questions and to be able to give us to-morrow or when we meet again, a full and definite answer.
On the Motion to report Progress, I desire to say that there are occasions in Committee when every Member feels questions have been put which require answers, and I am perfectly sure that every Member of the Committee will agree that the speech made by the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. W. W. Ruther-ford) deeply impressed the Committee, and everyone was ready to follow with the greatest interest what the hon. and learned Gentleman's reply would be to that speech. The next speech was that of the hon. and learned Gentleman, the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Salter), and that equally with the speech of the other hon. Member referred to has impressed this Committee. Each of these speeches sent a curious thrill through the House of Commons. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh!"] Well, I think I have been long enough in this House to know when there is a curious thrill going through it and when there is anything which impresses the House or the Committee, as the case may be. I say on these two occasions we were impressed, and the only reason I can conceive why these speeches have not been answered, and why the Government do not wish for progress to be reported, is that the right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to smother the questions raised without giving answers. That, I believe, is the sole and only reason.
I want to put a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman on a somewhat different line to those put before him in recent speeches on this Motion. I think he must admit that such a large percentage of our party have to come down here at about 11.30 in the morning that it is unreasonable that the Committee should be asked to sit up every night till long after Eleven O'clock. In regard to the discussion to-day, a great deal of time has been spent over an unnecessary Motion. It was understood by a speech made the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon that the question as to the amount of money to be granted to the municipalities was to be discussed to-day; but if it had been mentioned at the beginning of the Debate that this Motion was going to be negatived, we might at once have gone on to one of the other amendments on the paper. I think the right hon. Gentleman will see that we have sat in this House a long time, and that it is unreasonable to expect us to sit up later.
rose to address the Committee, when—
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 234; Noes, 100.
Division No. 188.] AYES. [1.10 a.m. Agnew, George William Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Fuller, John Michael F. Ainsworth, John Stirling Channing, Sir Francis Allston Fullerton, Hugh Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Gibb, James (Harrow) Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Clough, William Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Armitage, R Cobbold, Felix Thornley Glover, Thomas Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Barker, Sir John Cooper, G. J. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Barnes, G. N. Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Gulland, John W. Barran, Sir John Nicholson Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Cory, Sir Clifford John Hall, Frederick Beauchamp, E. Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Beaumont, Hon. Hubert Cowan, W. H. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Bell, Richard Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Crossley, William J. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Dalziel, Sir James Henry Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Bennett, E. N. Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.) Berridge, T. H. D. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Harvey, A. G. C (Rochdale) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Bowerman, C. W. Dickinson W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Bramsden, T. A. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Haworth, Arthur A. Branch, James Duckworth, Sir James Hedges, A. Paget Brocklehurst, W. B. Duncan, C (Barrow-in-Furness) Helme, Norval Watson Brodie, H. C. Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Hemmerde, Edward George Brooke, Stopford Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Henry, Charles S. Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Essex, R. W. Higham, John Sharp Bryce, J. Annan Esslemont, George Birnie Hobart, Sir Robart Burns, Rt. Hon. John Evans, Sir S. T. Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Burnyeat, W. J. D. Falconer, J. Holt, Richard Durning Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Fenwick, Charles Hooper, A. G. Byles, William Pollard Ferens, T. R. Horniman, Emslie John Carr-Gomm, H. W. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Hyde, Clarendon G. Idris, T. H. W. Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Illingworth, Percy H. Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Summerbell, T. Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Pirie, Duncan V. Taylor, John W. (Durham) Jones, Leif (Appleby) Pointer, J. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Pollard, Dr. G. H. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Laidlaw, Robert Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Lambert, George Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Lamont, Norman Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Tomkinson, James Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Rainy, A. Rolland Toulmin, George Lehmann, R. C. Raphael, Herbert H. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Levy, Sir Maurice Rees, J. D. Verney, F. W. Lewis, John Herbert Rendall, Athelstan Vivian, Henry Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Walsh, Stephen Lupton, Arnold Ridsdale, E. A. Walters, John Tudor Lyell, Charles, Henry Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Waring, Walter Mackarness, Frederic C. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Robinson, S. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) M'Laren, Sir C. B. (Leicester) Robson, Sir William Snowdon Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Roe, Sir Thomas Waterlow, D. S. M'Micking, Major G. Rogers, F. E. Newman Watt, Henry A. Maddison, Frederick Rose, Charles Day Wedgwood, Josiah C. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Rowlands, J. White, Sir George (Norfolk) Markham, Arthur Basil Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Marnham, F. J Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Whitehead, Rowland Massie, J. Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Masterman, C. F. G. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Wiles, Thomas Micklem, Nathaniel Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Wilkie, Alexander Middlebrook, William Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Mond, A. Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Seaverns, J. H. Williamson, A. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Seddon, J. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Morrell, Philip Seely, Colonel Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Morse, L. L. Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Silcock, Thomas Ball Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Simon, John Allsebrook Winfrey, R. Nicholls, George Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie Wood, T. M'Kinnon Norton, Captain Cecil William Soames, Arthur Wellesley Nussey, Thomas Willans Soares, Ernest J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Nuttall, Harry Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) Joseph Pease and the Master of O'Grady, J. Strachey, Sir Edward Elibank. Parker, James (Halifax)
NOES. Anson, Sir William Reynell Gretton, John. Pretyman, E. G. Anstruther-Gray, Major Guinness, Hon R. (Haggerston) Randles, Sir John Scurrah Arkwright, John Stanhope Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) Ratcliff, Major R. F. Ashley, W. W. Hamilton, Marquess of Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Balcarres, Lord Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Renwick, George Baldwin, Stanley Harris, Frederick Leverton Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Banner, John S. Harmood- Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Ronaldshay, Earl of Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) Hay, Hon. Claude George Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hill, Sir Clement Salter, Arthur Clavell Bignold, Sir Arthur Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Sandys, Col. Thos. Myles Bridgeman, W. Clive Hunt, Rowland Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Burdett-Coutts, W. Kerry, Earl of Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Keswick, William Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Carlile, E. Hildred Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Stanier, Beville Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Starkey, John R. Cave, George Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Staveley-Hill. Henry (Staffordshire) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Thornton, Percy M. Clive, Percy Archer Lonsdale, John Brownlee Valentia, Viscount Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. M'Arthur, Charles Walrond, Hon. Lionel Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) M'Calmont, Colonel James Warde, Col. C. E (Kent, Mid) Dalrymple, Viscount Magnus, Sir Philip Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- Mason, James F. (Windsor) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Winterton, Earl Du Cros, Arthur Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Faber, George Denison (York) Morpeth, Viscount Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) Morrison-Bell, Captain Younger, George Fell, Arthur Newdegate, F. A. Fester, P. S. Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir Gardner, Ernest Oddy, John James Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Pesse, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Forster. Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Percy, Earl
Question put accordingly, "That Chairman do report Progress, and leave to sit again."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 101; Noes, 264.
Division No. 189.] AYES. [1.15 a.m. Anson, Sir William Reynell Gretton, John Pretyman, Ernest George Anstruther-Gray, Major Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Radford, G. H. Arkwright, John Stanhope Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) Randies, Sir John Scurrah Ashley, W. W. Hamilton, Marquess of Ratcliff, Major R. F. Balcarres, Lord Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Baldwin, Stanley Harris, Frederick Leverton Renwick, George Banner, John S. Harmood- Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) Hay, Hon. Claude George Ronaldshay, Earl of Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hermon-Hodge. Sir Robert T. Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hill, Sir Clement Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Bignold, Sir Arthur Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Salter, Arthur Clavell Bridgeman, W. Clive Hunt, Rowland Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles Burdett-Coutts, W. Kerry, Earl of Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Keswick, William Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East) Carlile, E. Hildred Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Stanier, Beville Cave, George Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Starkey, John R. Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staff'sh.) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Clive, Percy Archer Lonsdale, John Brownlee Thornton, Percy M. Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Valentia, Viscount Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. M'Arthur, Charles Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) M'Calmont, Colonel James Walrond, Hon. Lionel Dalrymple, Viscount Magnus, Sir Philip Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) Dickson, Rt Hon. C. Scott- Mason, James F. (Windsor) Williams, Col R. (Dorset, W.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Du Cros, Arthur Philip Mildmay, Francis Bingham Winterton, Earl Faber, George Denison (York) Morpeth, Viscount Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B Stuart- Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Morrison-Bell, Captain Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Fell, Arthur Newdegate, F. A. N. Younger, George Fester, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W.) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Gardner, Ernest Oddy, John James TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Sir—Sir Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Percy. Earl Forster.
NOES. Ainsworth, John Stirling Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Condon, Thomas Joseph Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Armitage, R. Cooper, G. J. Gulland, John W. Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Barker, Sir John Cory, Sir Clifford John Hall, Frederick Barnes, G N. Cotton, Sir H J. S. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) Cowan, W. H. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Beaumont, Hon. Hubert Crossley, William J. Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Bell, Richard Cullinan, J. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worc'r.) Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Dalziel, Sir James Henry Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-sh.) Benn, W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Bennett, E. N. Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Berridge, T. H. D. Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-sh.) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Haworth, Arthur A. Boland, John Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hayden, John Patrick Bowerman, C. W. Duckworth, Sir James Hazieton, Richard Bramsden, T A. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Hedges, A. Paget Branch, James Duncan, J. H. (York, Otley) Helme, Norval Watson Brooklehurst, W. B. Dann, A. Edward (Camborne) Hemmerde, Edward George Blodie, H. C. Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Brooke, Stopford Essex, R. W. Henry, Charles S. Brunner, J. F. L. (Lancs., Leigh) Esslement, George Birnie Higham, John Sharp Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire) Evans, Sir S. T. Hobart, Sir Robert Bryce, J. Annan Everett, R. Lacey Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Burke, E. Haviland- Falconer, James Hogan, Michael Burns, Rt. Hon. John Fenwick, Charles Holt, Richard Durning Burnyeat, W. J. D. Frrens, T. R. Hooper, A. G. Buxton, Rt Hen. Sydney Charles Ffrench, Peter Horniman, Emslie John Byles, William Pollard Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Hyde, Clarendon Carr-Gomm, H. W. Fuller, John Michael F. Idris, T. H. W. Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Fullerton, Hugh Illingworth, Percy H. Channing, Sir Francis Allston Gibb, James (Harrow Johnson, John (Gateshead) Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Ginnell, L. Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Clough, William Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Jones, Leif (Appleby) Cobbeld, Felix Thornley Glover, Thomas Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Joyce, Michael O'Grady, J. Soames, Arthur Wellesley Kilbride, Denis O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Soares, Ernest J. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) O'Mailey, William Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) Laidlaw, Robert Parker, James (Halifax) Strachey, Sir Edward Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Lambert, George Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Lamont, Norman Philipps, Owen C. (Pembroke) Summerbell, T. Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Philips, John (Longford, S.) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Lehmann, R. C. Pirie, Duncan V. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Pointer, Joseph Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Levy, Sir Maurice Pollard, Dr. Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Lewis, John Herbert Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Power, Patrick Joseph Thompson, J. W. H. Somerset, E.) Lundon, Thomas Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Lupton, Arnold Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Tomkinson, James Lyell, Charles Henry Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Toulmin, George Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Trevelyan, Charles Philip Mackarness, Frederic C. Rainy, A. Rolland Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Raphael, Herbert H. Verney, F. W. MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Rea, Walter Russell (ScarborO') Vivian, Henry MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Reddy, M. Walsh, Stephen M'Laren, Rt. Hon. Sir C. B. (Leicester) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Ward, W. Ducley (Southampton) M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Rees, J. D. Waring, Walter M'Micking, Major G. Rendall, Athelstan Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Maddison, Frederick Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Manfield, Harry (Northants) Ridsdale, F A. Wason, John Cathead (Orkney) Markham, Arthur Basil Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Waterlow, D. S. Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Watt, Henry A. Marnham, F. J. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Wedgwood, Josiah C. Massie, J. Robinson, S. White, Sir George (Norfolk) Masterman, C. F. G. Robson, Sir William Snowdon White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Meagher, Michael Roche, John (Galway, East) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Roe, Sir Thomas White, Patrick (Meath, North) Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Rogers, F. E. Newman Whitehead, Rowland Micklem, Nathaniel Rose, Charles Day Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Middlebrook, William Rowlands, J Wiles, Thomas Mond, A. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Wilkie, Alexander Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Rutherford, V H. (Brentford) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Williams, Osmond (Merioneth) Morrell, Philip Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Williamson, A. Morse, L. L. Scarisbrick, T T. L. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Schwann, C. Duncan (Hyde) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Nannetti, Joseph P. Scott, A. H. (Ashtcn-under-Lyne) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Seaverns, J. H. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Nicholls, George Seddon, J. Winfrey, R. Nolan, Joseph Seely, Colonel Wood, T. M'Kinnon Norton, Capt. Cecil William Shaw, Sir Charles Edward Nussey, Thomas Willans Sheehy, David TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Nuttall, Harry Silcock, Thomas Ball Joseph Pease and the Master of Ell-bank. O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) Simon, John Allsebrook O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Smeaton, Donald Mackenzie
Original Question again proposed.
I am quite sure that ton. Members opposite need not suppose that the hon. Member for Basingstoke was left unanswered because there was no answer to be given. I hope hon. Gentlemen will do me the favour and the honour to pay a little, more attention to the answer which I am about to give than they appear to have bestowed on the answer which I gave previously. If they had paid more attention to that answer they would have seen that it completely anticipated the most important points which I believe were said to have thrilled the House which were raised in the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Basingstoke. He raised three points. He drew attention to the difficulty which had already been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead, and he said, "You have a site value for a large plot of land, you have a small portion of that land sold afterwards, and when you come to ascertain the site value of the small portion of the land you are dealing in, what are you going to do? You have no value on the smaller plot, the value is solely on the larger plot." Hon. Members opposite cheered as though that point were not dealt with in the Bill at all. It is dealt with in the Bill. I said it was dealt with in the Bill, but I did not proceed to argue the point whether it was satisfactorily dealt with, because I think that the argument on that point comes more properly when you come to another portion of the Bill. I observe that before hon. Members opposite accept an answer to a difficulty which they have raised, they say, "You have another difficulty in another clause later on," but I think we have quite enough difficulties in each clause. They are not very serious difficulties, but there are enough of them. What does that, the clause, later on do? It deals expressly with this very difficulty and enacts that when a small plot, which is part of a larger plot already valued, comes into the market the commissioners shall apportion the value. Hon. Members opposite will say, "Is that possible?" The hon. Member for Basingstoke considers it sufficient to state the difficulty, and the moment he had stated the difficulty in his view it was self-apparent that it could not be dealt with satisfactorily. This is one of the matters on which we had experience to guide us, for we had the experience of a provision precisely similar in the increment tax at Frankfort. What is the importance of this tremendous difficulty? I have here the official report as to the working of the Frankfort tax already referred to. It says they are of opinion that the tax will become increasingly productive as years go on; and they assert that the theoretical difficulties which appeared so formidable have largely disappeared in practice. Such, for instance, was the case of property being sold in lots, where the valuation of the increment due to each particular lot was thought to be impossible to ascertain. They had their hon. Member for Basingstoke. In practice this difficulty was surmounted, partly by the information given by the existence of mortgages on separate lots and partly by the estimation of the particular value of the lots, judged according to their suitability for use for building purposes. The report goes on to give particular cases of Frankfort dealings in land where large lots are dealt with. This has been proved to be no difficulty at all in Frankfort. The difficulty which is actually to prevent this House from imposing a tax which for present purposes we may assume to be a just tax in principle has been found, after years of experience elsewhere, to be no difficulty whatever. That is the first point. The other point was with reference to the delay in completing the transfer. The hon. Member for Basingstoke laid great stress upon that. You have the original site value, and you have to ascertain the precise amount on which the tax is to be imposed; and he drew a picture of all the delays which must take place before that could be ascertained. Of course, you compare the value at the time of sale with the original site value, and there are a series of deductions to be made in the interests of the owner. These deductions, the hon. Member said, may take no end of time, and all the time the transaction is hung up. It is nothing of the sort. The Bill makes admirable, and I think, quite adequate provision for that. First of all, the owner is to supply the particulars of the various deductions which he desires to claim. All these difficulties on which so much stress is laid arise largely because of our anxiety to take care the owner gets the benefit of every deduction for increment which may be due to his own labour, capital, and enterprise. Our difficulties do not arise from our rapacity, but from our extreme desire to limit the tax to actual unearned increment. If we had done as they have done elsewhere, and had put our tax on increment without troubling over deductions, or if we had done as they have also done elsewhere, and had put our tax on the total value of the hereditament, without troubling even about the increment, it would have been much simpler, but I wonder whether hon. Members opposite would have liked it any better. The owner, under the Bill, is required to make a return of the various particulars which are necessary to be known, in order that he may get the advantage of all the deductions provided for. Need the transaction wait till that return has been checked and proved by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue? Not at all. In this same Bill which hon. hon. Members seem to suggest we have not read, but to which they have given days and nights of such strenuous study, there is a provision for an interim stamp. If the owner chooses to give the particulars, the Commissioners may thereupon issue a stamp denoting the fact that he has given them.
And security?
And security. The hon. and learned Member speaks of that as if it were something remarkable. The State is willing to take the risk of the owner paying this fifth of the increment. It is a practical matter, on which we have taken the advice of the Board of Inland Revenue, and I think, on the whole, I prefer their advice to the hon. and learned Gentleman's alarm. There is no difficulty at all about the question of security. If he supplies the particulars, and satisfies the Board of Inland Revenue, they issue the interim stamp, and the transaction goes through at once—there is no delay at all. We have therefore the "impossibility" disproved by experience, and the "delay" disposed of by looking for one moment at a simple provision in the Bill. What was the last great point of the hon. and learned Member? I suppose that also thrilled the House. The tax ought only to be taken on death and not during life. I think if hon. Members opposite had considered what they were cheering, they would have been thrilled, indeed, by the suggestion. We are undoubtedly obliged to charge this increment in the case of death in order that owners who never transfer their property at all should not wholly escape. We may have estates, large estates, kept in the same hands from year to year and from generations to generations; and in order that such estates may contribute their fair quota of this Increment Duty, the only way of getting at them is by taking it on death, but that is certainly the least satisfactory of the necessary ways of getting at them. I do not want someone to get up—like the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Leverton Harris)—and say I said you cannot possibly take the duty on death. That is the sort of parody of my observations we get. Take the collecting of the duty on death and compare it in point of convenience or certainty with collecting it on a transfer on sale during life. Where you are dealing with transfer on sale during life, you have, as I said, got the original site value fixed as in 1909, and then you have the value with which you compare it given in the transactions itself. When you are dealing with it on death, you have no selling price to guide you in what I may call the second or later valuation which is made the subject of the tax. There you have to deal with it largely by estimate. Nobody can compare an estimate in point of certainty with the actual sale price by which you proceed in case of life; and therefore to give up the tax or not to collect it when you can on a natural sale price with certainty of precision and at a moment when the owner is getting money with which to pay and select an occasion when you have to proceed by way of estimate instead of an actual sale price, and when you have to collect the tax at a time no profit is being brought to the owner, but when the money has to be raised by those who have to pay by drawing upon some other source of capital is, I say, a most foolish suggestion. When we come to compare the collection on sale with the collection on death, one sees undoubtedly that collection on sale is easiest, simplest, readiest, and by far the most convenient time. So that when the hon. and learned Member suggested that we should give up collection during life altogether and urged that there should be collection on death, he was putting forward an argument, which I might say is not worthy of the attention of the House.
Will the hon. and learned Gentleman answer the question raised by the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Vivian), namely, whether, where a sale takes place on a property which has been divided and where there is an increment on one part of the property but a loss on the whole, the duty will have to be paid where the increment accrues, even though there is a loss on the whole transaction?
I have answered that most explicitly. On the question of apportionment, so far as there is apportionment, the Bill deals with it in sub-section 3 of clause 2. There the Commissioners will have to say with regard to any particular lot brought into sale whether it is part of a larger lot, the standard value of which has already been ascertained as in 1909, and they will have to make up their minds whether part of the original value ought properly to be allocated to this particular lot. That is the problem of apportionment. If the hon. Member goes on to say that they have apportioned so badly or so unfortunately that there is some part of the original lot which is being sold for less than the value originally put upon it, and that then the owner pays no tax upon it but makes a loss—well, of course, he does make a loss. We do not propose to tax his loss. If hon. Members opposite have been in any doubt upon that point, may I ask them if we have ever suggested that, although we tax the increment where increment arises, we are going to give compensation where it does not arise. If hon. Members have some other point which I have not seized I am extremely sorry. There are only two difficulties to be considered. The first is the difficulty of apportionment, with which I have already dealt. The Commissioners then have got to say with regard to any lot coming before their attention if it forms part of some larger lot, and they have to say what part of the original standard value is to be allocated to this lot. That difficulty is provided for in the Bill. If it turns out that the particular lot is being sold at some price below the standard value, of course there is no increment; there is then a loss. The owner bears that loss. I do not think I can make it plainer. He bears the loss; he pays the increment when he gets it, and does not pay when he does not get it.
I want to make this point quite clear. We do away with original valuation because in that case the sale price would be the original valuation. I am taking a period in the future. Subsequent to the passing of this Act a man buys a piece of land containing three or four acres—say one acre if you like. The price at which he purchased will then be the original price in regard to that land in future. The original price in 1909 will be passed. Then you will have the subsequent value definitely fixed not by the process of clause 14, but by the actual purchase price which the man pays. He then, after that, sells half the land which he bought at a certain price, which then becomes the original value, at a profit, and on that he is charged increment value. The remainder is left in his hands, and he suffers a loss because of the fall of land in the neighbourhood. That is the question put by the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Vivian). I take the answer given by the hon. and learned Gentleman to mean that if that happens he will have paid an increment value on the first part of the property he sold, and although the fall in the price on the latter half which remains on his hands largely exceeds the profits he will have to stand that loss and get no compensation.
I think we are indebted to the learned Attorney-General for having, at all events, attempted an answer. If his speech had been delivered earlier some part of the foundation for the Motion to report Progress would have gone. I hope the Committee will bear with me for speaking at this time. The Committee realises that these points will arise not only on conveyances of land in fee simple, but on leases of land for anything over seven years, on every sale of any small interest in land, and even on an ordinary contract for sale of any piece of land. These contracts are often made by letter, and have to be stamped in accordance with these rules before they can be enforced. What are the difficulties which will arise as stated by my hon. and learned Friend? In the first place, the vendor has to ascertain—he knows, of course, the purchase price—what part of the purchase price represents site value. He has to extract that, not only to his own satisfaction, but in such a way as to satisfy the Commissioners that he has returned the proper value. That is a complicated, and will often be a difficult, business. Having extracted the site value, he must compare the site value so extracted with the original site value of the land sold. For that purpose he must, unless the land sold happens to be the very land valued in 1909, compare the site value of the land sold with a sum to be extracted from the original site value. As to this point, I do not follow the argument of the learned Attorney-General. He seems to think that in the original valuation of the whole estate, of which I assume a portion is sold, there is some sort of standard of value, and that you can compare the sale price with the standard value in the original valuation. With great respect I think he is mistaken in that. The original valuation is, I assume, of a largish property. That property has no one standard value running through the whole; but different values according to the position of each part of the estate, according, perhaps, to its proximity to a town, or according to its nearness to roads. And, therefore, you must ascertain, not the standard value of the whole estate, but the particular value of each part of the estate. The calculation that these people have to make is a very difficult one, and it may put a very grave injustice upon the persons who have to pay the tax. They may have to go back five or ten years, and they have to split up the figure fixed on the 1909 valuation. They have in some way to arrive at an estimate as to what part of that lump sum fixed in 1909 is to be applied to the part of the property in question. They probably have not got any details of the value. How can you expect these gentlemen, however fair, to make a fair valuation of the site? or to ascertain what was the site value of a particular land ten or twenty years ago. I think it is impossible to do it so as to do justice to the owner of the land. We have been told that it is done in Frankfort. I do not profess to know much about Frankfort; but I am told that it is chiefly urban land there, and, therefore, mention of it is not quite relevant to the discussion; and I do not know whether it is justly valued there. The officials may think so, but I should like to know what the land-owner thinks of the justice of the valuation which the Commissioners form. I want to know whether the valuations there are just and fair valuations?
There is a good deal of rural land in the Frankfort area as well as urban land.
If the right hon. Gentleman says so, I will accept his statement. But I think the matter requires a little further consideration. I have referred to two difficulties which have been dealt with. May I mention a third which was put with great force by my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Salter), but which the Attorney-General has not dealt with at all. That is, that the duty payable is to be the balance of duty after deducting previous payments. These previous payments have been made on transactions of all kinds—some on leases, some on sales, some on sales of reversions, and some on death and on transactions of all kinds affecting all kinds of parcels of land. So you have to go back over this period, whatever it may be. You have to calculate not only what part of the original site value, but what part of the previously paid duty, was attributable to the site value of the land now being sold. I think that is a complicated and a really impossible transaction. I am sure all this, with the mere calculation involved, must take up a great deal of time and expense, and must involve the sellers and the parties concerned in the greatest possible uncertainty. But no answer was given on that point. Let me add this: I know the endeavour of everybody is to make the transactions in land quick and easy, and simple, and, so far as possible, cheap. Very great success has been attained in that matter. We have had evidence before us that in certain parts, especially in the provinces, the transactions in land are very quick, and sometimes go through in a day or two. That process will no longer go on under this Bill. Anybody who has had experience and has knowledge of these transactions in land will tell you so. I have had letters from different bodies, all urging that the points in the Bill affecting the sale of land have not been fully considered by the Government. Then there is the question of the interim stamp. Supposing a man buys a plot of land, how does the purchaser know whether there is an increment or not? And unless he knows it he cannot tell whether his deed is properly stamped. He may have to make elaborate inquiries, and if his deeds are not properly stamped he has to run the risk of objections being taken. The Attorney-General asked why do you prefer that duty should be paid on death rather than on sale? One answer is that because the occasions on which duty was leviable would be very much fewer in number. In the second place, because in the case of death there must be some delay while Death Duties, etc., are being ascertained. That delay might well be utilised for the purpose of the valuations and calculations necessary to ascertain the tax. Thirdly, as my hon. and learned Friend says, you would get in that way exactly the same amount of money for the Exchequer, although you would get it in one instalment instead of in several instalments. I think those three points are strong points in favour of the Amendment. I am glad that an attempt has been made to answer the arguments, but I submit to the Committee they have not been fully answered, and the arguments in favour of the Amendment still hold good.
Original Question again proposed.
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 216; Noes, 94.
Division No. 190.] AYES. [2.3 a.m. Agnew, George William Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Ainsworth, John Stirling Bowerman, C. W. Clough, William Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Bramsdon, T. A. Cobbold, Felix Thornley Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Branch, James Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Armitage, R. Brocklehurst, W. B. Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Balfour, Rebert (Lanark) Brodie, H. C. Cooper, G. J Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Brooke, Stopford Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Barker, Sir John Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Barnes, G. N. Bryce, J. Annan Cory, Sir Clifford John Barran, Sir John Nicholson Burns, Rt. Hon. John Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Burnyeat, W. J. D. Cowan, W. H. Beauchamp, E Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Beaumont, Hen. Hubert Byles, William Pollard Crossley, William J. Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Dalziel, Sir James Henry Bennett, E. N. Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Berridge, T. H. D. Charming, Sir Francis Allston Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Levy, Sir Maurice Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Duckworth, Sir James Lewis, John Herbert Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Lupton, Arnold Seaverns, J. H. Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lyell, Charles Henry Seddon, J. Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Seely, Colonel Essex, R. W. Mackarness, Frederic C. Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Esslemont, George Birnie Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Silcock, Thomas Ball Evans, Sir S T. M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Simon, John Allsebrook Everett, R. Lacey M'Micking, Major G. Soames, Arthur Wellesley Falconer, J Maddison, Frederick Soares, Ernest J. Fenwick, Charles Manfield, Harry (Northants) Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) Ferens, T. R Markham, Arthur Basil Strachey, Sir Edward Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Fuller, John Michael F. Marnham, F. J. Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Fullerton, Hugh Massie, J. Summerbell, T. Gibb, James (Harrow) Masterman, C. F. G. Taylor, John W. (Durham) Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Micklem, Nathaniel Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Glover, Thomas Middlebrook, William Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Mend, A. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Thompson, J W. H. (Somerset, E.) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Morrell, Philip Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Gulland, John W. Morse, L. L. Tomkinson, James Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Toulmin, George Hall, Frederick Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Nicholls, George Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Norton, Captain Cecil William Verney, F. W. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Nussey, Thomas Willans Walsh, Stephen Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Nuttall, Harry Walters, John Tudor Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) O'Grady, J. Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Parker, James (Halifax) Waring Walter Harvey. W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Haworth, Arthur A. Pointer, J. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Hedges, A. Paget Pollard, Dr. G. H. Waterlow, D. S. Helms, Norval Watson Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Wedgwood, Josiah C. Hemmerde, Edward George Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) White, Sir George (Norfolk) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Henry, Charles S. Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Priestley, W. E B. (Bradford, E.) Whitehead, Rowland Higham, John Sharp Radford, G. H. Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Hobart, Sir Robert Rainy, A. Rolland Wiles, Thomas Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Raphael, Herbert H. Wilkie, Alexander Holt, Richard Durning Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Horniman, Emslie John Rendall, Athelstan Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Hyde, Clarendon G. Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Williamson, A. Idris, T. H. W. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Illingworth, Percy H. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Robinson, S. Winfrey, R. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Robson, Sir William Snowdon Wood, T. M'Kinnon Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Rogers, F. E. Newman King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Rose, Charles Day Laidlaw, Robert Rowlands, I. TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Lambert, George Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Joseph Pease and the Master of Lamont, Norman Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Elibank. Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Lehmann, R. C.
NOES. Anson, Sir William Reynell Dalrymple, Viscount Kerry, Earl of Anstruther-Gray, Major Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- Lambton, Hon. Frederick William Arkwright, John Stanhope Douglas, Rt. Hen. A. Akers- Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Ashley, W. W. Faber, George Denison (York) Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Ftreham) Balcarres, Lord Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Baldwin, Stanley Fell, Arthur Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Banner, John S. Harmood- Foster, P. S. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) Gardner, Ernest Lonsdale, John Brownlee Barrie, H. T (Londonderry, N.) Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Beckett, Hon. Gervase Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) M'Arthur, Charles Bignold, Sir Arthur Gretton, John M'Calmont, Col. James Bridgeman, W. Clive Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Burdett-Coutts, W Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Hamilton, Marquess of Mildmay, Francis Bingham Carlile, E. Hildred Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Morpeth, Viscount Cave, George Harris, Frederick Leverton Morrison-Bell, Captain Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Harrison-Broadley, H. B.) Newdegate, P. A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Hay, Hon. Claude George Nicholson, Wm G. (Petersfield) Clive, Percy Archer Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Oddy, John James Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) Hill, Sir Clement Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Percy, Earl Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Hunt, Rowland Pretyman, E. G. Randles, Sir John Scurrah Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Ratcliff, Major R. F. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Stanier, Beville Winterton, Earl Renwick, George Starkey, John R Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Ridsdale, E. A. Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Wyndham, Rt. Hen. George Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Younger, George Ronaldshay, Earl of Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Valentia, Viscount TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Sir—Sir Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Alexander Acland-Hood and Mr. Foster. Salter, Arthur Clavell Walrond, Hon. Lionel Sandys, Col Thos. Myles Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Original Question put accordingly "That the words proposed to be left out, to the second word 'of,' in line 20, stand part of the clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 242; Noes, 92.
Division No. 191.] AYES. [2.10 a. m. Agnew, George William Fenwick, Charles Maddison, Frederick Ainsworth, John Stirling Ferens, T. R. Manfield, Harry (Northants) Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Ffrench, Peter Markham, Arthur Basil Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Armitage, R. Fuller, John Michael F. Marnham F. J. Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Fullerton, Hugh Massie, J. Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Gibb, James (Harrow) Masterman, C. F. G. Barker, Sir John Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Meagher, Michael Barnes, G. N. Glover, Thomas Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Barran, Sir John Nicholson Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Micklem, Nathaniel Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Middlebrook, William Beauchamp, E. Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Mond, A. Beaumont, Hon. Hubert Gulland, John W. Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Morrell, Philip Bennett, E. N. Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Morse, L. L. Berridge, T. H. D. Hall, Frederick Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Nannetti, Joseph P. Bowerman, C. W. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Newnes, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Bramsdon, T. A. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Nicholls, George Branch, James Hardy George A. (Suffolk) Nolan, Joseph Brocklehurst, W. B. Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Norton, Captain Cecil William Brodie, H. C. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Nussey, Thomas Willans Brooke, Stopford Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Nuttall, Harry Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid) Bryce, J. Annan Haworth, Arthur A. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Burke, E. Haviland- Hayden, John Patrick O'Grady, J. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hazleton, Richard O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.) Burnyeat, W. J. D. Hedges, A. Paget Parker, James (Halifax) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Helme, Norval Watson Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Byles, William Pollard Hemmerde, Edward George Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Philips, John (Longford, S.) Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard Knight Henry, Charles S. Pointer, J. Channing, Sir Francis Allston Higham, John Sharp Pollard, Dr. G. H. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Hobart, Sir Robert Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Clough, William Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Power, Patrick Joseph Cobbold, Felix Thornley Hogan, Michael Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Collins, Sir Wm. J. (S. Pancras, W.) Holt, Richard Durning Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Horniman, Emslie John Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Condon, Thomas Joseph Hyde, Clarendon G. Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Cooper, G. J. Idris, T. H. W. Radford, G. H. Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Illingworth, Percy H. Rainy, A. Rolland Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Johnson, John (Gateshead) Raphael, Herbert H. Cory, Sir Clifford John Johnson, W. (Nuneaton) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Cowan, W. H. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Rendall, Athelstan Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Joyce, Michael Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Crossley, William J. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Ridsdale, E. A. Cullinan. J. Laidlaw, Robert Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Dalziel, Sir James Henry Lambert, George Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lament, Norman Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Robinson, S. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lehmann, R. C Robson, Sir William Snowdon Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Rogers, F. E. Newman Duckworth, Sir James Levy, Sir Maurice Rose, Charles Day Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. David Rowlands, J. Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Lundon, T. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lupton, Arnold Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Edwards, A. Clement (Denbigh) Lyell, Charles Henry Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Elibank, Master of Mackarness, Frederic C. Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Essex, R. W. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Esslemont, George Birnle MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Evans, Sir S. T. MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Seaverns, J. H. Everett, R. Lacey M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Seddon, J. Falconer, James M'Micking, Major G. Seely, Colonel Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Tomkinson, James White, Patrick (Meath, North) Sheehy, David Toulmin, George Whitehead, Rowland Slicock, Thomas Ball Trevelyan, Charles Philips Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Simon, John Allsebrook Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Wiles, Thomas Soames, Arthur Wellesley Verney, F. W. Wilkie, Alexander Soares, Ernest J. Walsh, Stephen Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk) Walters, John Tudor Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen) Strachey, Sir Edward Ward W Dudley (Southampton) Williamson, A. Straus, B. S. (Mile End) Waring, Walter Wilson, J. W (Worcestershire, N.) Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Summerbell, T. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wasen, John Cathcart (Orkney) Winfrey, R. Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Waterlow, D. S Wood, T. M'Kinnan Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Wedgwood, Josiah C. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) White, Sir George (Norfolk) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Mr.—Mr. Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Joseph Pease and Mr. J. Herbert Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Lewis.
NOES. Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Anson, Sir William Reynell Gretton, John Percy, Earl Anstruther-Gray, Major Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Pretyman, E. G. Arkwright, John Stanhope Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) Randles, Sir John Scurrah Ashley, W. W. Hamilton, Marquess of Ratcliffe, Major R F. Balcarres, Lord Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peal Baldwin, Stanley Harris, Frederick Leverton Renwick, George Banner, John S. Harmood- Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Baring, Capt Hen. G. (Winchester) Hay, Hon. Claude George Ronaldshay, Earl of Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T. Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hill, Sir Clement Sandys, Col. Thos. Myles Bignold, Sir Arthur Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Bridgeman, W. Clive Hunt, Rowland Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Burdett-Coutts, W. Kerry, Earl of Stanier, Beville Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm. Starkey, John R. Carlile, E. Hildred Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Cave, George Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Valentia, Viscount Clive, Percy Archer Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Coates Major E. F. (Lewisham) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Walrond, Hon. Lionel Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E. MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) M'Arthur, Charles Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Dalrymple, Viscount M'Calmont, Col. James Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- Mason, James F. (Windsor) Winterton, Earl Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Faber, George Denison (York) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Fell, Arthur Morpeth, Viscount Younger, George Forster, Henry William Morrison-Bell, Captain Foster, P. S. Newdegate, F. A. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. Gardner, Ernest Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Watson Rutherford and Mr. Salter. Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Oddy, John James
I beg to move the Amendment, standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for West Edinburgh (Mr. J. A. Clyde), to insert the words "other than a transfer on sale constituting merely a security for debt or executed in order to create a new land tenure." I do so on the ground that without these words, what is really a part of a mortgage would be subject to the tax. The mortgagee is often given all the rights of an owner, but he is not the owner, and is merely the mortgagee. In truth, he is only the holder of a mortgage. It seems to me that to prevent a case of that kind resulting in the holder of a security on the creation of the security being charged with the Increment Duty it is necessary that these words should be inserted, "other than a transfer on sale constituting merely a security for debt." Until the transferee had established his position he would undoubtedly be in the position of having a document conveying to him the property for a price, putting him in the position of being absolute proprietor, while in fact he was merely the holder of a security. In order to prevent that being an occasion when the Increment Duty would be exacted, the qualifying words I have stated should be inserted. I do not confess to have any knowledge of the conveyancing law of England, but there are corresponding forms of mortgage in England where that would be done; and, accordingly, the Amendment has been duplicated; but, speaking from the Scotch point of view, I submit that the circumstance is one where the qualifying words should be inserted.
Amendment proposed, after the word "sale" to insert, "other than a transfer on sale constituting merely a security for debt."—[ Mr. Scott Dickson .]
I only rise because I happen to be one of the few Members of the House who have had experience of Scotch and English conveyancing, and this is a question which touches both. The Government agree entirely with the idea the right hon. Gentleman has in view. It would be most unjust to tax a transfer which is really a transfer by way of security merely, and not a transfer on sale. The intention is only to tax in the case of a transfer on sale. The case which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has put is not, it is true, a case of transfer on sale; but it is a cardinal principle laid down by Lord Cairns and a series of judgments since in the House of Lords, for the courts in construing statutes for the purpose of revenue, to look at the substance and not at the form. A transfer may, on the face of it, be an out-and-out conveyance; but if, in substance, it is only a conveyance by way of security, then the Act will be construed so that it will be taxed merely by way of security. The case referred to by the right hon. and learned Gentleman of an ex facie absolute disposition, is put on the register as such, but when it is taken into court the court will force the back position in persona . The court in applying the Revenue Statutes will treat that case by way of security only, and no tax will be imposed. We have no difference in purpose with the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but we are perfectly clear as to the effect of the law, and this Amendment is unnecessary. We prefer not to put in words about which the courts might hereafter ask for what earthly purpose we inserted them.
Might I say that in this case the court does not turn up. It is expressly excluded by this Bill, and I do not think there is any appeal to the court at all. The Commissioners surely have the sole decision in their hands, or the referee; and under those circumstances I do not think they would know anything about an ex facie absolute deposition or a Scotch back letter. The right hon. Gentleman says it would be extremely unjust if these dispositions were acted upon, and I suggest that he might accept the Amendment, for the reason I have mentioned. After careful consideration by those who understand the question, the insertion of these words is deemed necessary for the protection of these ex facie absolute dispositions.
A very intricate point of law has been raised. There was an expression used just now, "back letter," and I hope some explanation of it will be given. I am glad to see the Lord Advocate in his place. Will he be so very good as to explain to the House this very intricate point, and clear out minds on the subject?
I also desire to appeal to the Lord Advocate to clear up this point which has arisen. I understand there is a very serious difference of opinion between my right hon. and learned Friend and the Secretary of State for War. It seems to me when the Secretary of State for War and my right hon. and learned Friend differ, the only person who can clear up the difficulty is the Lord Advocate. I therefore respectfully appeal to him to clear up the point at issue.
This is the first time f have intervened in this Debate, but I do want an explanation with regard to this particular matter. I want to point out that we have this system of giving security together with back letters in connection with shipping. I thoroughly understand what takes place with regard to ships, but none of us can understand what takes place with regard to securities given upon a house. We have heard a good deal of Scotch and law expressions. Probably in might be an advantage if the Lord Advocate took the whole case in hand and gave it a little more consideration. The right hon. Gentleman the learned Attorney-General told us that if these words were put in a judge might ask why on earth they were there. I think when this Bill is discussed the judge will often make similar remarks, not only with regard to this, but with regard to other clauses, because of the want of consideration given to them. I do appeal to the Lord Advocate to make this perfectly clear to us before we proceed to vote. We have been kept in darkness on many subjects, and I think we are entitled to enlightenment on this particular point.
I do hope that before we part we are going to have the benefit of the professional opinion and advice of the Law Officers for Scotland, to whom the taxpayers, after all, make a considerable contribution. We have heard a great deal to-night, and I daresay we shall again about unearned increment. May we not have a little earned increment on the part of the Law Officers? As regards the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War (Mr. Haldane), I admit his legal abilities where English law is concerned, but not where Scottish law is concerned. My memory runs back to the times when the right hon. Gentleman was one of the brightest jewels—
The hon. Member must speak to the Amendment.
Of course, with the greatest possible regret, I must withdraw the adjective and the substantive. As regards the substantive part of the Amendment, I do not profess to understand Scotch law, but I should like to hear from the professional advisers of the Government what the objection is to the Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend.
Not being a Scotchman, I do not know what a Scotch back letter is—
Order, order. The hon. Member is repeating what has been said by previous speakers.
I did not hear anybody ask for an explanation of that particular name. I did not know that it was wrong to ask for an explanation. At present we do not know what it means, and we are what we might call buying a pig in a poke.
Question put, "That those words be there intrested."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 88; Noes, 228.
Division No. 192.] AYES. [2.35 a.m. Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Gibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West) Oddy, John James Anson, Sir William Reynell Gooch, Henry Cubitt (Peckham) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Anstruther-Gray, Major Gretton, John Pretyman, E. G. Arkwright, John Stanhope Guinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston) Randles, Sir John Scurrah Ashley, W. W. Guinness, W. E. (Bury St. Edmunds) Ratcliffe, Major R. F. Balcarres, Lord Hamilton, Marquess of Renwick, George Baldwin, Stanley Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Banner, John S. Harmood- Harris, Frederick Leverton Rutherford, John (Lancashire) Baring, Capt. Hon. G. (Winchester) Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Rutherford, W. W. (Liverpool) Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.) Hay, Hon. Claude George Salter, Arthur Clavell Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert Sandys, Col. Thomas Myles Bignold, Sir Arthur Hill, Sir Clement Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Bridgeman, W. Clive Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Burdett-Coutts, W. Hunt, Rowland Stanier, Beville Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. H. M. Kerry, Earl of Starkey, John R. Carlile, E. Hildred Law, Andrew Bonar (Dulwich) Staveley-Hill, Henry (Staffordshire) Cave, George Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham) Thomson, W. Mitchell-(Lanark) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Walker, Col. W. H. (Lancashire) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham) Walrond, Hon. Lionel Clive, Percy Archer Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.) Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) Coates, Major E. F. (Lewisham) Lonsdale, John Brownlee Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Dalrymple, Viscount M'Arthur, Charles Winterton, Earl Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- M'Calmont, Col. James Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Mason, James F. (Windsor) Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George Faber, George Denison (York) Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Younger, George Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Fell, Arthur Morpeth, Viscount Forster, Henry William Morrison-Bell, Captain TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —Viscount—Viscount Foster, P. S. Newdegate, F. A. Valentia and Lord Edmund Talbot. Gardner, Ernest Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
NOES. Agnew, George William Bennett, E. N. Byles, William Pollard Ainsworth, John Stirling Berridge, T. H. D. Carr-Gomm, H. W Allen, A. Acland (Christchurch) Boland, John Channing, Sir Francis Allston Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Bowerman, C W. Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R. Armitage, R. Bramsdon, T. A. Clough, William Balfour, Robert (Lanark) Branch, James Cobbold, Felix Thornley Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight) Brocklehurst, W. B. Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.) Barker, Sir John Brodie, H. C. Compton-Rickett, Sir J. Barnes, G. N. Brooke, Stopford Condon, Thomas Joseph Barran, Sir John Nicholson Brunner, J. F. L. (Lanes., Leigh) Cooper, G. J. Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.) Bryce, J. Annan Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead) Beauchamp, E. Burke, E. Haviland- Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Beaumont, Hon. Hubert Burns, Rt. Hon. John Cory, Sir Clifford John Benn, Sir J. Williams (Devonport) Burnyeat, W. J. D. Cotton, Sir H. J. S. Benn, W. (Towel Hamlets, St. Geo.) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney Charles Cowan, W. H Crossley, William J. Laidlaw Robert Ridsdale, E. A. Cullinan, J. Lamb, Ernest H. (Rochester) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Dalziel, Sir James Henry Lambert, George Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lamont, Norman Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, S.) Layland-Barrett, Sir Francis Robinson, S. Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.) Lehmann, R. C. Robson, Sir William Snowdon Duckworth, Sir James Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich) Rogers, F. E. Newman Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Levy, Sir Maurice Rose, Charles Day Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon David Rowlands, J. Dunn, A. Edward (Camborne) Lundon, T. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Lupton, Arnold Russell, Rt. Hon. T. W. Elibank, Master of Lyell, Charles Henry Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford) Essex, R. W. Macdonald, J R. (Leicester) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Esslemont, George Birnie Mackarness, Frederic C. Samuel, S. M. (White chapel) Evans, Sir S. T. Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J. Scarisbrick, T. T. L. Everett, R. Lacey MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.) Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne) Falconer, James MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.) Seaverns, J. H. Fenwick, Charles M'Laren, H. D. (Stafford, W.) Seddon, J. Ferens, T. R. M'Micking, Major G. Seely, Colonel Ffrench, Peter Maddison, Frederick Shaw, Sir Charles E. (Stafford) Fiennes, Hon Eustace Manfield, Harry (Northants) Sheehy, David Fuller, John Michael F. Markham, Arthur Basil Silcock, Thomas Ball Gibb, James (Harrow) Marks, G. Croydon (Launceston) Simon, John Allsebrook Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert John Marnham, F. J. Soames, Arthur Wellesley Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Massie, J. Soares, Ernest J. Gooch, George Peabody (Bath) Masterman, C. F. G. Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire) Greenwood, G. (Peterborough) Meagher, Michael Strachey, Sir Edward Gulland, John W. Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Straus, B S. (Mile End) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius Micklem, Nathaniel Strauss, E. A. (Abingdon) Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B. Middlebrook, William Summerbell, T. Hall, Frederick Mond, A. Taylor, John W. (Durham) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Morgan, G. Hay (Cornwall) Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morrell, Philip Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Morse, L. L. Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.) Hardy, George A. (Suffolk) Nannetti, Joseph P. Thompson, J. W. H. (Somerset, E.) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester) Newness, F. (Notts, Bassetlaw) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Harvey, A. G. C (Rochdale) Nicholls, George Tomkinson, James Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Nolan, Joseph Toulmin, George Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Norton, Captain Cecil William Trevelyan, Charles Philips Haworth, Arthur A. Nussey, Thomas Willans Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Hayden, John Patrick Nuttall, Harry Verney, F. W. Hazleton, Richard O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.) Walsh, Stephen Hedges, A. Paget O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Helme, Norval Watson Parker, James (Halifax) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Hemmerde, Edward George Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye) Waterlow, D. S. Henry, Charles S. Philips, John (Longford, S.) Wedgwood, Josiah C. Higham, John Sharp Pointer, J. White, Sir George (Norfolk) Hobart, Sir Robert Pollard, Dr. G. H. White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire) Hobhouse, Charles E. H. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.) Hogan, Michael Power, Patrick Joseph Whitehead, Rowland Holt, Richard Durning Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Whitley, John Henry (Halifax) Horniman, Emslie John Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Wilkie, Alexander Hyde, Clarendon G. Priestley, Arthur (Grantham) Williams, A. Osmond (Merioneth) Idris, T. H. W. Priestley, W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.) Illingworth, Percy H. Radford, G. H. Wilson, P. W. (St. Pancras, S.) Johnson, John (Gateshead) Rainy, A. Rolland Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Johnson, W. (Nuneaten) Raphael, Herbert H. Winfrey, R. Jones, Leif (Appleby) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Wood, T. M'Kinnon Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Joyce, Michael Rendall, Athelstan TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr.—Mr. King, Alfred John (Knutsford) Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.) Joseph Pease and Mr. Herbert Lewis.
moved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Question put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress, to sit again upon Monday next (28th June).
And it being after half-past Eleven of the clock on Wednesday evening, Mr. Deputy-Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, in pursuance of the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Twelve minutes before Three O'clock a.m.