Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 13: debated on Thursday 25 November 1909

The text on this page has been created from Hansard archive content, it may contain typographical errors.

House Of Commons

Thursday, 25th November, 1909.

Mr. SPEAKER took the chair at a Quarter before Three of the clock.

Royal Irish Constabulary

Return ordered giving the total annual cost of the Royal Irish Constabulary Forces for each of the past eight years ending the 31st day of March, 1909, including and specifying in detail all sums contributed by the Imperial Exchequer as well as by local authorities for that service.—[ Mr. Butcher.]

Mining Royalties (Scotland)

Return ordered, as regards Scotland, for the last complete year for which the figures are available (1) of the output of coal, shale, and iron ore, and (2) of the rent and wayleaves there for, respectively, as ascertained for the purposes of The Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act, 1854, under the following headings:—

Rent.Wayleaves.
County.Output in Tons for year ending 31st December, 1908.Fixed Rent where there is no Output.Fixed Rent where Lordship does not amount to Fixed Rent.Lordship where same exceeds Fixed Rent.Total.Fixed Rent where no corresponding Lordship.Lordship where Wayleave exceeds Fixed Rent.Total.

—[ Mr. Dundas White.]

House Of Lords

With your permission, Sir, I desire to move the Motion standing in my name—"Return of the number of Peers in the House of Lords at the time of passing the first Reform Bill in 1832, the number of persons who have been made Peers since then up to the present date, by whom they were made Peers, and their profession, occupation, or calling."

That does not rest with me. It rests with the Government, who have not given notice of their consent.

Oral Answers To Questions

Egypt (Deportations)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had yet received a Report from His Majesty's Agent and Consul-General at Cairo showing how many persons had been proceeded against in Egypt under the Deportation Law of 4th July, 1909, and whether he could say in how many cases there had been convictions and what sentences were passed?

I learn from His Majesty's Agent and Consul-General at Cairo that 283 cases have been tried under the Law referred to. These cases were carefully selected by the Minister of the Interior from a list of names of about 1,200 persons who were considered the most dangerous by the local authorities. This list was itself prepared by a careful selection of names from among a much larger list of persons whose, existence in the locality in which they resided was considered locally to be a danger to the community. Two hundred and eighty-one persons (22

by default) were ordered to be placed under police supervision in their villages for periods not exceeding five years, and in addition to find security for their good behaviour in sums varying between £E100 and £E1,000. In 11 cases, for special reasons, the security was fixed between £E1,000 and £E1,500. One person was ordered to be placed under police supervision without finding security. One person was not tried by the Commission, as he was already being prosecuted for a crime he had committed. Appeals have been lodged in 102 cases, of which 69 have been considered and the sentences confirmed or revised. Fifty-three cases, of which one had also been appealed by the accused, are, by an independent order of the Minister of the Interior, to be revised. A large number of Notables from all parts of the country who have had occasion to express their views to the authorities are unanimous in declaring that there is already a marked improvement in the state of affairs in the villages, and that there is general satisfaction among the rural population at the results of the measure.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many persons have actually been deported? Also, is it a fact, as stated in the Egyptian Press, that the amount of bail required, varying from £200 to £1,000, is such that in the great majority of cases it cannot be given, and deportation follows as a matter of course?

I cannot say how many persons have actually been deported, because appeals are still pending in some of the cases.

Have these cases been heard in public, and had the men legal assistance?

I think that is the case. But perhaps the hon. Member will put down another question.

Yes. I am informed that there is general satisfaction among the rural population.

Suez Canal Company (Proposed Lease Extension)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether in view of the important commercial, Egyptian and international, interests involved in the Suez Canal, he would take steps to give this House an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon the proposed extension of the lease of the Suez Canal Company before the negotiations were completed?

Certain points in connection with the proposed extension are now under the consideration of the Egyptian Government, who must have time to form. their own opinion upon them. Meanwhile, the negotiations are in suspense, and there is nothing further to be said at present.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that we shall have an opportunity of discussing the matter before the negotiations are completed?

No. The Egyptian Government are considering the matter, and before any final conclusion is come to the General Assembly will be consulted.

I am thinking only of this House. Is it not reasonable that this House should have an opportunity of deciding such a grave question?

The decision from the point of view of the Suez Canal Company does not rest with this House. The decision as to whether the Egyptian Government should make a certain bargain rests with that Government, who are now forming their opinion upon it, and they are doing so without any pressure from us.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the alleged dropping of the negotiations is accurate, or are the negotiations still being carried on?

I have said that the negotiations are in suspense, because the Egyptian Government are considering certain propositions.

Persia (Trade Routes)

asked whether the trade routes from Bushire to Shiraz were still unsafe for commercial traffic; and, if so, whether representations could be made to the Persian Parliament calling attention to this state of things?

As long ago as 23rd September, His Majesty's Minister at Tehran, under instructions from His Majesty's Government, addressed a strong remonstrance to the Persian Government on this subject; and about the same time the Persian Minister of the Interior informed Sir George Barclay that he was engaged in preparing a scheme of road guards which, he felt confident, would restore order on the roads. According to the most recent reports from Sir George Barclay, the security of the trade routes in Southern Persia has improved, and the number of robberies and outrages has diminished. In these circumstances, no further representations to the Persian Government appear desirable for the present, but the whole question is engaging the serious consideration of His Majesty's Government. I ought to add that since this answer was drafted I have seen in the newspapers that a serious outrage has occurred on these roads, but I have not as yet received official information about it.

Ramsden Estate (North Kerry)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when the Estates Commissioners would send an inspector on the Ramsden estate at Beal-killa, near Listowel, North Kerry; and when would the holding be vested in the tenants after inspection?

The purchase agreements in connection with the sale of this estate were not lodged until October, 1908. Having regard to the very large number of cases pending before them in which the agreements for purchase were lodged at an earlier date, the Estates Commissioners cannot at present say when this estate will be dealt with.

There being 150 tenants on the estate, will there be an inspection before the vesting order is issued?

Polling Districts And Registration Of Voters Act (County Down)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state what arrangements have been made by the county council of the county of Down for the adoption of the Polling Districts and Registration of Voters Act; and whether the scheme has been formally approved by the Local Government Board?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question I should like to ask him whether he is aware that the question of the hon. Member is prompted by the fact that he is rather nervous about his seat in South Down?

No, Sir, it is impossible for me to address myself to that point in whatever part of the House hon. Members sit. but I always understand why questions of that sort are asked.

May I assure the hon. Member for North Down (Mr. Corbett) that I shall increase my majority and that he will decrease his?

The Local Government Board have not yet received any scheme from the Down County Council under the Polling Districts and Registration of Voters (Ireland) Act, 1908, but they understand that the county council have the matter under consideration.

Old Age Pensions And Ages Of Claimants (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, with reference to the fact that the school registers may be made available for the purpose of establishing the ages of claimants for old age pensions, as stated in the letter of 6th November, 1909, from the Commissioners of National Education (Ireland) to Mr. M. Sullivan, whether any conditions as to the terms on which such registers may be used have been laid down by the Commissioners; and, if so, what; and whether the Commissioners have ascertained, approximately, the extent to which the school registers in use from 1846 to 1864 are still in existence?

The Commissioners of National Education have permitted the national school registers to be utilised by persons seeking old age pensions in order to establish their ages, but no conditions have been laid down regarding them. The registers are kept in the schools, but the Commissioners have not ascertained to what extent the registers in use from 1846 to 1864 have been preserved.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can promise that something will be done by the Irish Government to allay the anxiety excited amongst the old people in Ireland of over 70 years of age on account of the stoppage of pensions by the Irish total Government Board in cases where the local pension committees have been satisfied, on full consideration of all available evidence, that the pensions are payable, and where they have ordered the payment of pensions; and whether, in view of the fact that evidence as to age in a great many cases is not derivable from Census Returns on account of the errors and inaccuracies in these Returns for Ireland in the last century, he will direct that the evidence available in the locality, sifted and inquired into impartially by the local pension committees, shall be acted upon in accordance with the provisions of The Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, so that honest and deserving old people shall be saved from the despair in which the action of the Irish Government has plunged them by depriving them of their pension?

It is the duty of the Local Government Board to determine the questions raised by pension officers on the decisions of the local pension committees, and the Board are bound to form their own conclusions on the merits of each case. Claimants or pensioners are in all cases afforded an opportunity of putting forward such evidence as they can obtain, and any representations made by the local pension committees are also duly considered.

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the action of the Local Government Board in stopping the pensions under the Old Age Pensions Act of Bridget M'Gowan, of Dunmoran, and Catherine Gilhooly, Highpark, in the Skreen sub-committee district of the county of Sligo; whether he is aware that the local pension committee which considered and decided on granting pensions to those people consisted of five district councillors, one local Protestant clergyman, and three Roman Catholic priests; whether he is aware that in the opinion of this committee the said Bridget M'Gowan is 80 years of age, and the said Catherine Gilhooly is also qualified for a pension in respect of her age, being well over 70 years, and that reliable evidence in each case has been submitted to the committee; and whether he will require the Local Government Board to reconsider their decision in both cases and secure that the pensions in both cases shall be paid?

The Local Government Board are not aware of the composition of local pension sub-committees. The Skreen sub-committee expressed an opinion, as stated in the question, that Bridget McGowan was 80 years of age, but her own statement in her claim to a pension was that her age was 72. The only evidence which the Board could obtain from her as to her age was that of the parish priest, who stated that when he came to the parish in 1869 she was certainly over 30, and that he considered her to be about 75 years old. In the case of Catherine Gilhooly, the Census Return of 1851 gave her age as five years, which would make her only 63 years old now. She claimed to be 71, but the only evidence she could put forward was the statement of a neighbour that he believed that the claimant was over 19 years of age when he was married in 1857. It is not open to the Board to reconsider their decisions, but if fresh claims are lodged the Board will send an inspector to visit the claimants and report generally on the evidence in the two cases.

Galway University College

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the Committee of Agriculture and Technical Instruction of the county of Sligo protesting against the treatment of Galway University College, the Government grant given to which is considerably less than the grants given to Queen's College, Belfast, and to the University College, Cork, and which grant is disproportionate to the needs of Galway University College; and whether he will use his influence to secure equality of treatment for the University College, Galway, and an immediate supplemental grant to enable the work of that institution to be efficiently carried on and the educational wants of the people of Connaught, which is the poorest province in Ireland, to be adequately supplied?

I have seen the resolution referred to. Although Galway is undoubtedly at a disadvantage in regard to financial provisions, I cannot give an undertaking to re-open the question.

Old Age Pensions Act (Irish Local Government Board)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention had been called to complaints as to the action of the Irish Local Government Board acting as a court of appeal in the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act; whether he was aware that many of the pension committees and sub-committees in the county of Cork and in other parts of Ireland state that their functions in regard to the Act are rendered nugatory by the action of the Local Government Board in acting solely on the report of the local pension officer and ignoring the local committees; and whether, in view of the official figures showing that the percentage of persons receiving old age pensions based on the Census Returns of 1841 on 30th June, 1909, was for England 257 per cent., Scotland 2'79 per cent., and Ireland 2.25 per cent., he will send instructions to the Local Government Board to recognise the position and responsibility of the local authorities in the administration of the Act?

The Local Government Board have received Resolutions of the nature referred to in the question from several pension sub-committees. As I have just explained in my reply to a question asked by the hon. Member for North Sligo, the representations of the pension committees are duly considered by the Board, who are, however, bound to form their own conclusions.

Is the right hon. Member aware that with regard to the figures given in the latter part of the question— the percentages—that they are accurate and official figures, and that they dissipate the erroneous impression that an undue number of pensions are going to Ireland?

Well, I do not doubt at all that the figures do go in the direction that the hon. Gentleman indicates.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the local pension committee disagree from the decision of the Local Government Board that, in case of appeal, the Local Government Board will not return to the local pensions committee the documents upon which the claim and appeal is based? Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Local Government Board do return all such documents to the local pensions committee?

I will inquire into that. I see no reason why the documents should not be returned.

Cork University

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the resolution of the University Committee, Cork, of the 20th instant, complaining of the insufficiency of the sum allotted for building purposes; and whether, in view of the increase in the number of students from all parts of Munster and the increase in the number of subjects taught, he will communicate with the Treasury with a view to securing an increase of the sum granted?

I have seen the Resolution, but as I have just informed the hon. Member for North Sligo in the case of Galway, I cannot undertake to re-open the question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Belfast gets a building grant of £60,000, and Cork only gets £14,000, which is totally inadequate?

Estate Of Charles Waring (County Cavan)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he would state whether the estate of Charles Waring, consisting of the townlands of Corodoagh, Drumera, Pottlebrack, and Drumanespie, all in the county of Cavan, had yet been vested in the tenants; and, if not, what was the cause of the delay; or, if same has been removed, will he say on what date?

The Estates Commissioners hope to be in a position to vest the holdings in the tenants early next month. The prescribed certificate of title was not lodged until the 5th instant owing to difficulties in connection with vendor's title.

His Majesty's Birthday (University College, Galway)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, whether he is aware, that for many years past, according to the Official Calendar, the Queen's and more recently the King's Birthday has been celebrated in Queen's College, Galway, as a holiday and the Union Jack flown on the college buildings, and that on 9th November last, the first King's Birthday since the affiliation of the college to the National University in Dublin, the Union Jack was not hoisted; and whether he can state if orders were issued from Dublin Castle to this effect, or, if not, by whom?

I am informed by the President of University College, Galway, that under the Statute for the college, the King's Birthday is not a "Statutory Holiday, "and was not observed by the college on 9th November. No regulations have at any time existed as to flying the Union Jack on the college buildings, and no orders with reference thereto were given for 9th November?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that it is not usual to hoist the Union Jack over public buildings in Ireland on the King's Birthday, and even in the case of the brewers and distillers it has not been done?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Belfast and other loyal parts of the North of Ireland— T know the right hon. Gentleman treats this with contempt—it has been in the past the custom to hoist the Union Jack as the emblem of the unity of empire?

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that on the last birthday of the King there was not a Union Jack flying in the whole of the constituency of North Down?

Teaching Of Irish (Primary Schools, Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the special Report of the Advising Examiner in Irish to the Board of Intermediate Education; and whether, in view of the evidence which it affords that grants for the teaching of Irish are being wasted, the money voted for this purpose will be applied to another purpose?

I have read the report of the Advising Examiner on this year's intermediate examinations. It has no bearing on the teaching of Irish in primary schools for which alone money is voted.

Shooting Outrage, Ruan District, County Clare

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to a shooting outrage in the Ruan district of county Clare, on 30th October, when a farmer named Murphy was injured; whether Murphy holds a farm which his neighbours want to be divided amongst themselves; has Murphy been attacked previously, and is he now under police protection; and whether his assailants have been arrested?

I have had a report of this case. Murphy was fired at and wounded in 1907 and again on 30th October last as stated. The police give him all the protection which he will permit. They have not yet been able to arrest his assailants.

Attack With Firearms (County Galway)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received particulars of an attack with firearms upon the house of Patrick Gibney, in county Galway. on the night of 6th November; whether Gibney had been warned to remove his horses from a boycotted farm; and whether the police have made any arrests in connection with this outrage?

I am informed by the constabulary authorities that this man was warned as stated, and that his house was subsequently attacked. The police have not yet been able to make any arrests.

Education Commissioners Action

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether it is with the knowledge and approval of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland that one of their chief organisers, Mr. McElwee, is recommending the teachers in the national schools of Ireland to use the drawing publications of a Scotch publishing house and is advising the teachers to become subscribers to the school journal issued by the same house, and that he carried specimens of both with him on his visits to schools and brings these samples under the notice of the teachers; if so, whether he has sanctioned this organiser's action in recommending Scotch publications to the detriment of Irish trade, more especially as the Irish publishers have specially brought out at great expense Irish handbooks to meet the requirements of the existing programme in drawing; and will he further state if the Scotch drawing publications are much more expensive than similar publications produced in Ireland?

The Commissioners have no information on the subject of this question, but inquiries will be made.

Indian Councils (Rules And Regulations)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether, under the rules and regulations regarding the reformed councils in India, the district and local boards and municipalities constitute the electoral basis for popular representation on the provincial legislative councils; and whether, under these rules and regulations, the choice of the electorate is limited to the selection of a person who is already a member of the district or local board or municipality concerned in the election?

also asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether there is included under the rules and regulations regarding the reformed councils in India a rule which authorises the Government at its discretion to declare any candidate ineligible for a scat in council; and, if so, whether, before any candidate is declared ineligible, he will be informed of the grounds on which objection is taken by Government and be afforded an opportunity of meeting such objection?

I will answer my hon. Friend's two questions together. The full text of the regulations and rules, varying as they do in the different provinces, is too voluminous to telegraph, and will not reach this country before the 18th of next month. In the meantime I believe my hon. Friend will agree that it is better not to attempt to impart their substance to the House by means of question and answer upon isolated points, a method that might give rise to misunderstanding.

High Prices Ruling In India

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the question of high prices ruling in India has attracted the attention of the Indian Government; and whether it is intended to appoint a paid officer to report on the matter?

The answer to the first question is in the affirmative. The Secretary of State has agreed to the deputation of an officer to investigate the subject.

British Indians In The Transvaal

asked the Under-Secretary for India, whether he is aware that Mahomedan British-Indians imprisoned for non-compliance with the Transvaal Registration Law were refused facilities for observing the religious fast of Ramazan; and whether the Secretary of State will make representations to the Government of the Transvaal that such conduct is exciting great indignation among His Majesty's subjects in India, as expressed in public meetings and otherwise?

When the attention of the Secretary of State was called to this matter he consulted the Secretary of State, for India and found that the Transvaal Government, who were under the impression that no precedent existed for conceding the request of the Mahomedan prisoners, were wrongly advised as a special arrangement for enabling Mahomedan prisoners to keep the fast exists in the Punjab, though not, it would seem, in India generally. The attention of the Transvaal Government was at once called to the Punjab practice, but they were unwilling to introduce a different practice in the Transvaal from that of the Cape, which has a larger Mahomedan population, namely, over 15,000, than any other South African Colony, and where no notice of the fast is taken in the penal institutions.

asked whether any settlement has been arrived at of the Transvaal - Indian question, or whether terms of imprisonment with hard labour are still being meted out to the Indian passive resisters for non-compliance with the Registration Law; whether the number of the Indians left in the Transvaal is about 6,000 out of a population of 13,000 in the pre-war period; and whether he is aware of the feeling aroused in India by the treatment of the Transvaal British-Indian colonists.

I regret that no actual settlement can be said to have been arrived at, which the leaders of the British-Indians are prepared to cordially accept. But my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies made a statement in another place on November 16th showing that Transvaal Ministers have professed their willingness to meet the practical demands of the Indians. The law continues to be enforced. With regard to the number of Indians I would refer to a reply which I gave in this House to a similar question on 22nd April. The Transvaal Government stated on 5th June that 198 persons had been expelled, of whom 148 were known to have returned, and Mr. Handhi stated in July that the number of Indians actually residing was about 5,000, but I cannot say how far this figure may be correct without referring to the Transvaal Government. I am aware that meetings have been held in various parts of India to express indignation at the action of the Colonial Government.

South African Mines (Chinese And Native Workmen)

asked the Under-Secretary for the Colonies if he can state the number of Chinese and natives working in the South African gold mines in December, 1905, and the number working in the same mines in the last week in September, 1909; if he can state the rates of pay; and whether any modifications have been made in the conditions of employment during this period?

In December, 1905, 93,831 natives and 47,267 Chinese were employed on the Transvaal gold mines; and in September, 1909, 166,649 natives and 4,122 Chinese were so employed. I have no information as to rates of pay. The conditions of employment of each class have not been substantially altered as far as I am aware, but changes, for instance, in the length of time for which natives contract have been made from time to time.

Sale Of Spirits To South African Natives

asked whether His Majesty's Government propose in any way to modify their policy of discouraging the sale of spirits to the native races of Africa in consequence of the findings of the Committee presided over by Sir Mackenzie Chalmers?

His Majesty's Government do not propose to modify in any way their policy of discouraging the sale of spirits to the native races of Africa, and they will continue to co-operate with other European Powers to that end.

Central South African Railways (Motor Cars)

asked whether the motor cars in use on the Central South African railways are of British manufacture; and, if not, whether British manufacturers were given an opportunity of quoting for them?

The Secretary of State has not been supplied with information on this subject. I will ask the Agent-General for the -Transvaal whether he has any particulars.

Deportations In India

asked the Under-Secretary whether he has received any official information to the effect that Mrs. Krishna Kumar Mitra has seriously suffered in health owing to the anxiety caused to her by the deportation without charge or trial and the prolonged imprisonment of her husband; and, if not, whether he would make inquiries?

The Secretary of State has received no information to the effect stated.

Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries, and may I ask him whether it is not a fact that this lady has made application to the Government of India to join her husband, and has been refused?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether he will take into consideration the desirability of associating the publication of the new reform scheme in India with some graceful act of conciliation, such as the release of the gentlemen deported some time ago, under Regulation III. of 1818?

The following questions on the same subject also stood upon the Paper:—

asked the Prime Minister how much longer the nine Bengali gentlemen who were arrested and deported last December, without charge or trial, are to be deprived of the liberty to which every British subject is entitled?

asked whether, in view of the near approach of the prorogation of Parliament, and the fact that for nearly a year nine British subjects have been imprisoned in common gaols in India without having at any time been informed of any offence committed by them or tried for any crime against the law, he will make some statement to the House in justification of the continued detention of these gentlemen, and say for how long His Majesty's Government intend to sanction it?

asked the Prime Minister whether he will be able, before the House rises, to make any statement as to the intentions of the Government respecting the nine British subjects who were deported from Bengal and imprisoned last year without charge or trial?

asked the Prime Minister whether it is his intention before Parliament rises to give the House any information as to the grounds on which His Majesty's Government justify the pro- longed imprisonment of the nine British subjects who were deported from Bengal nearly a year ago without having been charged with or convicted of any offence against the law?

asked whether His Majesty's Government will consider the desirability of liberating the nine Indians, deported 11 months ago, on the inauguration of the reforms; and, if not, whether he will inform the House what circumstances justify their further detention?

My hon. Friend has asked me to reply to the question of the hon. Member for Hackney, and perhaps I may answer the other questions at the same time. I would refer my hon. Friends to my reply to questions with a similar object on 17th June. I can only add that the Secretary of State and the Government of India are fully alive to all the circumstances and arguments of the case, and have the matter under their especial consideration, with a view to release at the earliest moment when the general situation admits.

May I ask the Prime Minister whether the Secretary of State did not say that the reasons for these deportations was that the reforms might be carried out in tranquillity, and not under conditions of unrest, and whether now that these reforms are carried into law there is any reason for their further detention?

May I further ask the Prime Minister, seeing that the reason for the detention of these gentlemen, is preventive and not punitive, he will direct that they shall not be detained in prison, but otherwise in a manner consistent with public security.

I have said the Government of India and His Majesty's Government have this matter under special consideration with a view to release at the earliest possible moment.

Russia And Jewish Journalists

asked the Prime Minister whether any agreement exists between this country and Russia imposing disabilities upon British subjects of the Jewish faith who are journalists, in the event of such subjects applying to the Russian consulate in London for their passports to be viséd; whether he is aware that a Mr. M. J. Landa, a British subject and a Jew, acting in the capacity of a special correspondent of the "Daily News "newspaper, was so treated; and, in view of this fact, will representations be made to the Russian Government to remove such restriction from the journalistic profession?

The circumstances of the Russian Consul-General having refused to visér Mr. Landa's passport has been brought to the notice of His Majesty's Government. No agreement exists of the nature referred to in the question, and I would beg to refer to the reply given on 17th November last to the hon. Member for Kilkenny. So long as the Russian regulations respecting persons of the Jewish faith are applied to all persons alike, irrespective of their nationality, which His Majesty's Government have reason to believe to be the case, they have no treaty grounds for protest. It is not practicable to ask for special exceptions to be made in favour of one particular profession.

Gulab Bano Case

asked the Under-Secretary for India whether he has any official information showing that the judges of the chief court at Lahore, whose judgment in the Gulab Bano case was dissented from by the executive, have announced their intention of commenting publicly upon the resolution of the executive; and whether he can say whether the judges have made those comments, and what is their nature?

The Secretary of State has no official information on the subject, but he has seen in the newspapers a report stating that the chief court have taken notice of the resolution published by the Lieutenant-Governor, and have expressed the intention of considering the matter further. The Secretary of State has no knowledge as yet of the result of such consideration.

Charges Against Indian Police (Ghulam Mohammed Case)

asked the Under-Secretary whether he has any official information showing that the inquiry held by the Punjab Government into the charges against the police of torturing one Ghulam Mohammed by racking him, contained in Mr. Dundas' judgment at Rawul Pindi, was an inquiry held in secret by police officials; whether he can say if any of the police implicated were put upon their oaths and submitted to cross-examination; and whether these policemen are still in the service of the Government?

The reports received by the Secretary of State do not show in detail the manner in which the enquiry was conducted by the Lieutenant-Governor, but they show that the evidence on which his conclusions were based included the report of the civil surgeon who examined the prisoner immediately after he made his complaint, and the opinion expressed by the district magistrate of Rawul Pindi after making independent enquiries. The Secretary of State is unable, on the information received, to answer the last two questions, but since the Lieutenant-Governor found the police concerned to be free from blame they are presumably still in the service.

May I ask that when a judge has found by his own ocular testimony that there was torture, the question should not be disposed of toy a secret police tribunal?

The Secretary of State is quite satisfied with the statement of the Executive Government.

Is the Secretary of State satisfied that in future where cases of torture are found by the judicial tribunal to have been practised, that the matter should be disposed of in secret by.an inquiry held by the police themselves?

Malta (Legislative Council)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to carry out a reconstruction of the Legislative Council of Malta; whether it is proposed that the elected members shall in future be in a majority; and, if so, what will be the numbers of the elected and the official members, respectively?

The Secretary of State, as at present advised, does not propose to introduce any changes in the constitution of the Legislative Council of Malta.

Port-Of-Spain (Trinidad) Borough Council

asked the right hon. Gentleman if he is yet in a position to report as to the progress made as to the restoration of the borough council to Port-of-Spain, Trinidad, which was taken away by the late Government in 1896?

Considerable progress has been made in regard to this matter since the last occasion on which my hon. Friend addressed a question to me on the subject. I am not yet- in a position to make a statement on the subject, but I hope it may soon be possible to do so.

East Ham Municipal Election

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that at the recent municipal election at East Ham, in the Plashet Ward East, about 150 electors who arrived at the polling booth before eight o'clock could not vote in consequence of being unable to get to the polling tables by 8 p.m; whether he is prepared to have investigation made; and if he can state whether the Government have any intention of bringing about legislation to prevent people being disenfranchised?

I do not find that I have received any representations in regard to this matter in connection with the recent municipal election at East Ham. I could not undertake to introduce legislation on the subject, but I have taken note of the suggestion of my hon. Friend.

In consequence of the gravity of this question I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will refer the matter to the Law Officers of the Crown with the view of having a circular sent round to the polling authorities so as to insure that every man who gets into the polling booth before eight o'clock shall have an opportunity of recording his vote?

Vaccination

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that a healthy young woman named Rose Sandall, residing with her mother at 28, New Queen-street, Bedminster, Bristol, was constrained by her employers, Messrs. Mavdon and Sons, of Bristol, to be vaccinated in February last; is he aware that the vaccination was not successful in the medical sense of the word, but resulted in the formation of proud flesh at the place of insertion, sores in the foot, and general illness and emaciation, disabling her from working; if he is aware that she has died and that a post-mortem examination has revealed symptoms of cancer; and, since it is known that in some cases vaccination produces cancer, whether he will take steps to insure full inquiry by persons in no way responsible for the production of the vaccine used in this case into the nature and origin of this vaccine?

My attention has not been called to the circumstances referred to in the question. I am, however, now causing inquiry to be made into the matter.

In view of the frequent recurrence of death and injury from vaccination, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to appoint an impartial Committee to inquire into the nature of the stuff which is going out from his Department?

Pension (Nurse Steward)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has yet had time to consider the case of Nurse Steward, who has been employed by the Wolverhampton, Wools-ton and Burslem, Dudley, Newport Abbot, and Rugby workhouses for a period amounting to 11 years and 10 months, and who has been certified by several medical men as unfit for further workhouse service as a nurse; whether he can see his way clear to grant this person her pension; whether he is also aware that this case has been under consideration since June; and what action, if any, does he intend to take in the matter?

I have been in communication with the parties with respect to this matter, and will give my decision in the course of the next few days. I will send a copy of it to my hon. Friend.

Education Grant (West Ham)

asked the President of the Board of Education if he is aware that, in consequence of the education grant to the borough of West Ham being of a less amount than last year, an increase in the education rate of 1½d. in the pound has been caused; and whether he can see his way to make an extra grant in consequence of West Ham being one of the highest rated education authorities in the country?

I am aware that the share of the special grant for necessitous areas received by West Ham in respect of the last financial year was considerably reduced owing to the operation of Section 5 of the Regulations. I regret, however, that I cannot contemplate any extension of the scope of that grant, which is strictly limited to the sum of £200,000 voted by Parliament. I may, perhaps, add that the sum received by West Ham from that grant in respect of the last financial year was more than £30,000 in excess of the sum received by any other local education authority In England or Wales.

Teacher's Superannuation Allowance (Swansea)

asked the right hon. Gentleman what is the total amount of the superannuation allowance and annuity on which Mr. Thomas Madge, of Pentrepoeth county council school in the borough of Swansea, has been retired; and at what age his retirement took place and after what number of years' service as a certificated head teacher in public elementary schools?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for the Oswestry Division of Shropshire on 26th October last.

I am told that the answer which the right hon. Gentleman gave in the case referred to is not an answer to this question.

I gave as full an answer on that occasion as I can give to this question.

Brussels Exhibition (Plasterers' Wages)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the British Section being built at the Brussels Exhibition has been let to a British contractor, and that the fibrous plastering work has been sub-let to a foreign firm, and the rate of wages paid is four francs per day; and, seeing that the work was let to a British firm, should the London rates of wages be paid for the work; and whether, in view of the Fair Wages Resolution, he intends taking action in the matter?

I have been in communication with the contractors for the decoration in the British Section of the Brussels Exhibition, 'who inform me that no portion of their contract has been sub-let; that they are paying their Belgian workmen at the rate of more than four francs per day, and that the rates paid are not less than the rates current in Brussels. In these circumstances I see no occasion for taking action in the matter.

Is four francs per day the standard rate of wages for plasterers in Brussels?

There is a lot of difference between that and the wages paid in this country.

Did the right hon. Gentleman advise the contractor as to the rate of wages to be paid?

No, Sir; it is obvious that in decorating an exhibition in a foreign country you cannot import British workmen. That would cause a great deal of ill-feeling, and might destroy the purpose of the exhibition. The rule followed by the Government is to pay the current rate of wages in the district, and that, I am informed, is four francs per day for plasterers.

Railway Employés And Municipal Elections

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention had been drawn to the dismissal by the North British Railway Company of Moncrieff Craig, Ladybank, East Fife, a workman who had been many years in the service of the company and bore a good character, for taking part in municipal affairs during hours when he was not required to be on duty; whether, as the result of the action of the company, none of its servants would allow himself to be nominated for the Ladybank Town Council at the recent municipal elections; what are the powers possessed by his Department for dealing with such cases; and how does he propose to exercise them?

My attention has previously been drawn by the hon. Member to the dismissal of Mr. Craig, but I have no information as to the other circumstances mentioned in the question. The matter is not one in regard to which the Board of Trade have any powers.

Is it not a fact that this railway company gave an undertaking to allow their servants to take part in municipal elections and to serve on public bodies so long as it did not interfere with the carrying out of their duty to the company; and will he state whether the Board of Trade have any power to ensure the liberty of railway servants in this respect; and if he has not power will he seek further powers to see that railway servants are protected in this matter?

I am advised that I have no power to interfere, but I believe this company expressed a desire not to interfere with the discharge of municipal duties by their servants if it did not interfere with the carrying out of their ordinary duties. Of course, I have no power to interfere in the case of individual workmen.

In view of the undertaking given to the Board of Trade and repeated in this House, will the President of the Board of Trade call the attention of this railway company to the continuance of this practice?

I do not think I am justified in allowing it to be understood that I agree with the statement that this company has intimidated its workmen.

Glasgow And South Western Railway (Signalling Arrangements)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that considerable alterations have been made in the lines and signalling arrangements at New Cumnock station, Glasgow and South Western Railway (Scotland); whether from the new signal cabin the signalman has a clear view of the traffic under his control; whether on the down side it is necessary to have a signal to protect the crossing made by the new loop line; and whether the alterations made by the company at this station have been passed by an inspecting officer of the Railway Department before being opened for working?

Plans of the alterations which have been made at New Cumnock station were submitted to the Board of Trade, and provisional sanction to the new works being brought into use was given. The works have, since opening, been inspected by one of the Inspecting Officers of Railways, who reported that the general arrangements were satisfactory. I am advised that the signalman has a good view in each direction from the new signal box, that there are two signals on the down side protecting a through crossing, and that no more are necessary.

Women Suffrage Prisoners

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can say under what circumstances Catherine Tolson and two other women suffrage prisoners were turned out from Strangeways Prison about 10 o'clock last Friday evening and driven in a cab to the offices of the Women's Social and Political Union in Oxford-road, and left there on the street, the offices being closed; whether one of the women fainted twice before finding accommodation for the night; whether Miss Tolson did not reach home till 3.30 in the morning, having had to walk from Altrincham to Hale through the fog; whether Miss Tolson's father had arranged with the Governor of the prison that he would meet his daughter and the other two ladies at 8.15 on Saturday morning, the day on which their sentences expired, and had given an undertaking that there would be no demonstration; and for what reason and by "whose instructions was this arrangement departed from?

The Governor, acting on the discretion which had been given to him, decided to discharge these prisoners on Friday night. He arranged the time so as to allow Miss Tolson to catch a train for her home at 10.50; offered to send an officer home to Rochdale with another of the prisoners, while the third was to go to a friend in Manchester for the night. The three prisoners, however, being free to do as they liked on discharge, 'elected to go together in a cab to the offices of the Women's Political and Social Union, and left the prison singing and shouting. It appears that, finding the offices of the union closed, they drove to a friend's house; that Miss Tolson was pressed by one of her friends to remain with her for the night, but that she insisted on going home in a taxicab, and on the driver losing his way in a fog, she walked the last part. It is true that the Governor had arranged with her father to release her at 8.15 a.m. on Saturday, but the father had first voluntarily promised in a letter, which I have seen, to keep this information to himself, in order that there might be no demonstration. The Governor found, in the course of Friday, that information of the hour of release had been communicated to the Women's Social and Political Union; and, to avoid any demonstration, decided to release the prisoners on Friday.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any intimation as to the change of the arrangements was made to the father of Miss Tolson, or any of the relatives of the girls, and is the Home Secretary aware that there is a special prison rule (No. 3) which provides that in the case of girls under 20 years of age intimation must be sent either to the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society or some responsible person; and is the Home Secretary aware that Oxford-street, where these girls were sent by the express orders of the Governor, is one of the lowest streets in the City of Manchester?

I think I have already given a very full answer to the hon. Member's question. I must say that the girl's father did not keep to the arrangement, and I do not see why any further communication should be made.

Is the Home Secretary aware that Miss Tolson's father denies that statement?

The statement that he informed the Women's Social and Political Union; and is it not a fact that the father has been informed in a letter from the Deputy-Governor of the prison that the reason why the release was made on the Friday was in consequence of a telegram received from the Home Secretary? Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why that telegram was sent, and what were its contents?

The hon. Member's information is inaccurate. I have already stated the exact facts. A discretion was given by me to the Governor to act according to his judgment, and release the prisoners either on Friday or on Saturday.

As the accuracy of my statement has been called into question I will read a paragraph to the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] It is a matter of importance, and I wish to ask the Home Secretary whether he has received a copy of a letter sent by the Deputy-Governor of the prison to Miss Tolson's father, in which he says:—

"When I telephoned to you that the arrangement for 8.15 the following morning, entered into between yon and Captain Haines, stood good, it was to the best of my belief understood that, this was so, and it was my intention to carry it out. It was not till some time afterwards that a telegram from London made it impossible for me to make any reply."

Discharged Lunatic Seamen (Irish Workhouses)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty what practice is adopted by the Admiralty authorities in respect to lunatic seamen discharged from the Royal Navy; if it is the custom to send these men to their relatives or to the workhouses of their native districts; if so, is the practice sanctioned by naval medical officers; and do the Admiralty authorities propose to continue the practice of deducting from the pension or other allowance given to discharged lunatic seamen now maintained in Irish lunatic asylums the capitation grant paid by the State towards the maintenance and transferring the amount of such grant to the relief of the Vote for the Admiralty?

The procedure of the Admiralty is governed by the Lunacy Acts, 1890–1891, and by the provisions of the Army Act, Section 91, made applicable to the naval service by Section 3 of the Naval Enlistment Act, 1884. Dangerous lunatics are committed to an asylum, those entitled to pensions for life being admitted to the Royal Naval Hospital, Yarmouth. Non-dangerous lunatics are sent to Yarmouth or to the union of the parish to which it appears from the declaration made on entry and from other information that they are chargeable, unless their relations or friends are willing to take charge of them and the Admiralty are satisfied that proper oare will be taken of them. In the latter case the Admiralry act on the advice of the naval medical authorities. With regard to the last part of the question, the reduction of the pension by the amount of the grant received by the asylum authorities from the local taxation account in aid of the pensioner's maintenance is made in accordance with the provisions of Section 7, Clause 2, of the Superannuation Act of 1887, and the Admiralty has no option in the matter.

May I ask whether it is not a fact that when naval pensioners are transferred to Irish lunatic asylums or workhouses, the total cost of their maintenance is thrown on the local rates or the local taxation account in Ireland?

The Admiralty have no option in the matter. They are bound by legislation.

Are these old men who have served under the British flag sent to Irish workhouses as an inducement to more Irishmen to join the Navy?

Good-Conduct Badges (Navy)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, in view of the beneficial effects likely to result, whether the Board will extend the grant of good-conduct badges and the extra pay to men who receive them to all the lower-deck ratings?

A similar question was asked on the 29th March last by my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport, and I have sent to the hon. Member a copy of the reply then given.

Naval Expenditure (1910–11)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the expenditure on new ships and their armaments for 1910–11 to which this country is necessarily committed by the existing programme, and to which the programme of 1910–11 will be additional?

I am unable to give information in anticipation of the Estimates, which will be laid in due course.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that precisely similar information was granted to hon. Members below the Gangway when they wished to reduce the Navy Estimates in 1906–7?

Naval Construction In Germany (1910–11)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will state the amount to be voted for new construction and armaments for Germany in 1910–11, calculated on a similar basis to the official figures for this year, 1909–10, of £10,256,194 for Great Britain and £10,751,466 for Germany?

The official proposed German naval estimates have not yet been received and it is not possible to give the figures asked for.

Has the Admiralty any reason to believe that the figures published in the Press this morning to the effect that the German vote for naval construction and armaments is nearly £2,000,000 in advance of last year are inaccurate?

The question asks the amount to be voted for new construction and armaments for Germany in 1910–11. The figures have not yet been received, and naturally I cannot give the answer.

Does the hon. Member mean that they have not yet been received by the Admiralty 1 They have been published officially.

Development And Road Improvement Bill

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), whether he has received a copy of a resolution passed at a meeting of the Cork butter market trustees on the 18th instant, calling attention to Sub-section (a) Clause 1, of the Development and Road Improvement Bill of the Government, and expressing apprehension as to the danger of public moneys being advanced to organisation societies which are trading in direct competition with private traders; and, in view of recent experiences in Ireland, what steps the Department proposes to take in regard to this Sub-section?

The Vice-President has received a copy of the Resolution referred to in the question; and is of opinion that the legitimate interests of the private trader are not endangered by the Clause as it stands.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that grants-in-aid have been given in the past and may be given under this Bill again to organisations who are neither manufacturers of manures nor seeds, and who compete against those who are legitimate manufacturers and pay rates?

I must ask for notice of that. I cannot undertake to answer a question of that kind offhand.

Illegal Trawling (Donegal Coast)

asked the Vice-Presi- dent of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), whether he is aware of the havoc done by steam trawling along the coast of North Donegal; whether any steps will be taken to prevent the same; and what, if any, is the result of the recent inquiry held into the matter?

The Department will take all steps possible, having regard to the means at their disposal, to prevent illegal trawling off the Donegal Coast. Certain bye-laws which they submitted, prohibiting steam trawling off that coast, received the approval of the Lord Lieutenant in Council a few days ago, and steps are being taken in accordance with the law to give notice of the fact that the bye-laws are now in force.

Nairn Harbour

asked the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that the harbour of Nairn has been severely damaged by the storms of September, 1908, and October, 1909, and is now in a dangerous condition; that notwithstanding repeated representations the Fishery Board for Scotland refuses to make any grant for repairs; and whether the Secretary for Scotland proposes to take any steps in the matter?

I am informed there has been some injury, but I have not the details.

Is the hon. Member aware that during this recent month the harbour of Nairn has suffered further injury, and is in imminent danger of being totally destroyed?

I would ask the hon. Member to put down a question. I am informed there has been some injury, but I have not the details.

Procurators Fiscal And Political Work (Linlithgow)

asked the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been called to the fact that the depute procurator of the county of Linlithgow engages in political work in that county; and, if so, will he say whether the regulations of the Crown Office for the guidance and instruction of procurators fiscal and their deputies apply in that case?

Court Of Session (Quorum Of Judges)

asked the Lord Advocate whether the business of the First Division of the Court of Session had recently to be adjourned on account of inability to find a quorum of judges; whether one of the judges of that division has since ti en obtained leave of absence on account of ill-health; and, if so, what plan he proposes to adopt in order that the public may suffer no inconvenience by delays?

On 2nd November, owing to the sudden illness of two of the Judges of the First Division a quorum could not be constituted, and on that day that Court did not sit. No Judge of the First Division has since then obtained leave of absence on account of ill-health. Lord McLaren, who is one of the Judges of the First Division, obtained leave of absence from the commencement of the Winter Session till 1st January next.

Walmer Castle

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether any decision has been come to as to the future status of Walmer Castle, and whether he will consider the advisability of constituting it a national monument open to the public?

I can add nothing to my reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport circulated with the Votes on 15th September.

Small Holdings (Berkshire)

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset, as representing the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether the attention of the President had been called to a.speech made by the chairman of the small holdings Committee of the Berkshire County Council at the last quarterly meeting of the council, in which he said that in Berkshire 5,000 acres had been applied for by individual small holders, exclusive of 2,290 by the North Berks Society, that 4,138 acres had been recommended by the committee to satisfy the approved applicants, but that only 1,786 acres had been acquired by the council, that many applicants remained unsatisfied, and that the committee had no land available at the present moment to satisfy the applications; and whether, under these circumstances, the President proposes to use the compulsory powers given by the Small Holdings Act to obtain the land required?

The President has seen a report of the speech referred to. In view of the difficulty of obtaining suitable land he thinks that the acquisition of nearly 1,800 acres shows that the council are endeavouring to administer the Act in a satisfactory manner, and he has no doubt that all possible steps will be taken to satisfy the remaining demand with as little delay as possible.

asked the hon. Member for South Somerset whether the attention of the President has been called to the report of the small holdings committee, which was discussed at the last quarterly meeting of the Berkshire County Council; whether he is aware that the chairman of the committee stated that the committee had been for months trying to obtain 20 acres of land at Aldermaston for an applicant of approved character and capital, and that the Board of Agriculture had advised the use of compulsory powers to obtain the land, but that Mr. Keyser, who owned two-thirds of the village, refused to let any of his land, on the ground that the applicant was not a suitable man, and possessed political opinions of which he did not approve; and what action the President proposes to take to see that the applicant obtains the land to which the county council have held him to be entitled?

Yes, the attention of the President of the Board has been called to the report to which my hon. Friend refers, and he gave instructions last week for inquiry to be made into the matter by an inspector so soon as opportunity offers. The President will await the receipt of the inspector's report before deciding what action, if any, he can with advantage take to help the applicant in question.

Loudon Electric Call Boxes

asked the Postmaster-General whether any steps are taken to ventilate the street boxes in London used for electric calls, having regard to the fact that many large towns in England have, in the interests of public health, adopted means for ventilating them?

If the hon. Member is referring to the cabinets in public telephone call offices, I may assure him that all those installed by the Post Office have ventilators.

Irish Mails From New York (Delay In Delivery)

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the published announcement that on and after 1st January, 1910, for the remainder of the winter season, the Cunard Company's mail steamers from New York will not call, as heretofore, at Queenstown to land mails and passengers, but will proceed direct to Fishguard; whether he is aware that the proposed alterations will not alone cause delay in the delivery of the Irish mails, but will also cause discomfort to passengers bound to Ireland, who, under the new conditions, must first land at Fishguard and subsequently undertake a second sea passage across the Channel to Rosslare; and whether he will represent to the postal authorities in the United States the loss and inconvenience which must inevitably result from the contemplated change?

My attention has been called to the matter. As my hon. Friend is aware, the Cunard Company is not under contract with my Department in respect of their Eastward voyages, nor do I understand that the United States Post Office is in a position to control the company in respect of their ports of call. As regards postal facilities, I find that during the period in question, as much as 90 per cent, of the mails are for Great Britain and places beyond, and of these the greater part will be accelerated. As regards the Irish mails, there will be, I fear, some delay; but we propose generally to convey them to Ireland by the route Fishguard and Rosslare, thus reducing the delay to a minimum.

May I ask whether it is not a fact that the loss and inconvenience referred to in the question is not limited to Ireland, but that Scotland is also seriously affected; and do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman does not intend to make any representations to the United States in connection with this matter?

Ninety per cent, of these mails are for Great Britain and beyond, and the bulk of those are accelerated by the new system. As regards the Irish mails, they are not accelerated, but we are doing our best to meet that difficulty. I do not think there is any advantage in making representations to the United States. We made representations in refer- ence to a somewhat similar matter, and as far as I am aware they have no control over these mail boats.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of representing to the Postal Authorities in the United States the very serious loss and inconvenience that will be caused to Ireland by this change?

I am informed, as I have said, that 90 per cent, of the mails are for Great Britain and beyond, and the bulk of them will be accelerated. I will consider the matter, but I should find it rather difficult to make representations to the American Government when it is clear from the figures before me that the great majority are accelerated. I shall be glad, however, if the hon. Member will give me any facts bearing upon the matter.

Is it not a fact that numerous representations have been made to the right hon. Gentleman asking him to avoid the delay by the steamers calling at Queenstown?

Finance Bill

Durham Coal Royalty Rents

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state the amount of royalty rent paid on coal in the county of Durham; the minimum and maximum rate per ton charged; and the collieries in the county at which such rates apply?

Without a general reference to local officials in the district, for which there has been no time, my right hon. Friend is unable to furnish the detailed information which the hon. Member desires.

Land Tax Surveyors

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what number of surveyors it is estimated will be employed under the provisions of Part I. of the Finance Bill; if any surveyors have been provisionally appointed, and, if so, how many; and if he will give the number of the applications for these appointments which have been received by the Treasury?

In reply to the first part of the question, I beg to refer the hon. Member to the statements made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 11th and 17th August last. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. As regards the third part, my right hon. Friend is informed by the Board of Inland Revenue that they have received 1,138 applications from land valuers.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what proportion of that number are likely to be employed in the immediate future?

I am afraid I am not in a position to answer any supplementary questions.

Spirit Duties

asked how long the increased duty of 3s. 9d. per proof gallon will have to be paid on spirits in the event of the Finance Bill not being passed into law, and whether the increased duty paid up to the present will be refunded to the payers if the measure is rejected by the other Chamber?

My right hon. Friend regrets that he is not in a position at the present moment to make a statement on this subject.

1908.1909.
Quantity.DutyQuantity.Duty.
Gallons.£Gallons.£
October3,388,0001,865,0002,116,0001,558,000
November (1–21, 1908) (1–20, 1909)2,647,0001,460,0001,656,0001,220,000

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what quantity of spirits was taken out of bond from 1st May to 1st November, 1908, and the amount of duty paid thereon; if he will give a similar Return for the corresponding period of this year; whether he will state the quantity taken out of bond from 1st November, 1908. to 1st May, 1909, and the amount of duty paid; and what quantity would require to be taken out for the corresponding months 1909–10 to bring the revenue for the 12 months, May, 1909, to April, 1910, up to what it was for the corresponding preceding 12 months plus the estimated increase of £800,000?

The quantity of spirits on which duty was paid and the amount of duty received thereon from 1st

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is considerable dissatisfaction amongst traders with regard to this uncertainty in view of the nearness of the Christmas trade?

Withdrawals Of Spirits From Bond

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what quantity of spirits was taken out of bond in Great Britain and Ireland for the months of October, 1908 and 1909, respectively, and what quantity was taken out of bond for the month of November of this year up to the date of latest calculation; and whether he will state what quantity was taken out of bond for the corresponding days in November of last year, and what amount of duty was paid in each of the periods referred to?

The following Statement shows the actual quantities of spirits on which duty was paid in Great Britain and Ireland during the months of October, 1908 and 1909, and the approximate quantities on which duty was paid in the periods November 1st to 21st, 1908, and November 1st to 20th, 1909, together with the amounts of duty received thereon:—

May to 31st October in each of the years 1908 and 1909 were: —

Proof Gallons.Duty.
May to Oct., 190817,181,000£9,608,000
May to Oct., 1909

*8,966,000

*£6,586,000

* Corrected figures.

The quantity of spirits on which duty was paid, and the amount of duty received thereon from 1st November, 1908, to 30th April, 1909, were:—

Proof Gallons.Duty.
23,337,000£12,888,000

The quantity which will require to be duty paid in the corresponding months of the year from May, 1909, to April, 1910 ( i.e., November, 1909, to April, 1910, inclusive), to bring the revenue for the 12

months, May, 1909, to April, 1910, up to what it was for the corresponding preceding 12 months, plus the estimated increase of £800,000, is 22,630,000 proof gallons.

As this answer is of considerable interest, may we have it circulated with the Votes?

General Officers' Establishment

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the advisability of increasing the number of Artillery generals, seeing that the proportion of generals in that corps to regimental officers is 1 in 110, whilst the proportion in the Guards' Brigade is 1 in 19?

The establishment of general officers includes all officers of the Army promoted to that rank, whatever arm they may have belonged to. No separate establishment for each arm therefore exists, though in selecting officers for promotion, regard is had to the proportion of general officers of each arm on the active list. For the purpose of this proportion officers of the Brigade of Guards are included in the Infantry, which arm, at present, has fewer than its correct proportion of Major-Generals, whereas the Royal Artilley has as nearly as possible its correct proportion.

Territorial Force (Medical Officers)

asked the Secretary for War whether there is a senior Territorial medical officer in London suitable to take command of No. 1 London General Hospital?

This General Hospital is formed by the staff of St. Bartholomew's Hospital. The senior physician asked that Colonel Harrison, a distinguished medical officer who had been in the Grenadier Guards, should be appointed administrator, and he was accordingly gazetted on the 2nd November.

Royal Army Medical Corps (Transport)

asked the Secretary for War whether he could give any date upon which the reissue of harness to the Royal Army Medical Corps Transport of the Territorial Army will be completed, and what steps are being taken in the interim to admit of the men receiving the necessary training with waggons?

Orders were issued on the 12th instant for the reissue of the harness that had been withdrawn.

St Elmo Barracks, Malta

asked the Secretary for War whether sanitary improvements, in the way of drainage and cleansing of the harbour, have been effected in Malta; if a large portion of the garrison has been removed from the low-lying barracks at St. Elmo to new barracks on the hill; if the cases of fever in the garrison have been reduced to a small proportion of their former number; if he will now remove the prohibition of the use of goats' milk by the garrison, it having been conclusively proved by Dr. Walter Hadwen that there is no connection between goats' milk and fever; and if, considering that the production of goats' milk is the chief farming industry of the island, he will remove a prohibition which is the cause of so much loss to the islanders?

During recent years improvements have been steadily carried out in relation to the drainage of the harbours in Malta. In 1906 a considerable number of the troops were transferred from St. Elmo to the new barracks. The Mediterranean Fever Commission, however, obtained no evidence connecting the condition of the harbours with the prevalence of Mediterranean fever amongst the troops. Since the prohibition of the use of goats' milk in barracks and hospitals Mediterranean fever has practically disappeared from amongst the troops. The evidence given in the Reports of the Royal Society's Mediterranean Fever Commission connecting goats' milk and Mediterranean fever is so strong, and the improvement in" the health of the troops since the use of goats' milk has been given up is so marked, that no responsible Minister who did not wish to be regarded as weak and incompetent would venture to remove the prohibition of the use of goats' milk by the garrison.

Is it not the fact that the reduction in the number of attacks of Mediterranean fever took place before the prohibition? Do not natives not under military orders consume large quantities of goats' milk without suffering any harm, and is not the case that—

Order, order. The question is partaking somewhat of the nature of a speech.

Scottish Temperance Bill

May I ask the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the importance of the Temperance (Scotland) Bill, it will not be possible to give Monday and Tuesday next week for the purpose of carrying through the Report stage and Third Reading of the measure?

The Government, as my hon. Friend is aware, have kept this Bill alive, and given it special facilities, not only from sympathy with its objects, but because it commands the earnest support of the Scottish Members, and of none more than myself. It is, therefore, with reluctance and great regret that we have come to the conclusion not to ask the House to persevere this year with its further consideration. At this stage of the Session, and under existing conditions, we feel that the House cannot be called upon to give the time and consideration to the further stages of the Bill, which its importance requires. I need not add that I hope that before long it may find its place on the Statute Book.

Business Of The House

Can the Prime Minister give us any further information with reference to the course of business in this House this and next week in view of the alteration made in the arrangements for taking the Vote on the Finance Bill in another place?

In the event of our securing the first four Orders on the Paper to-day the Government will not proceed with any further business either to-day or to-morrow. There are certain Bills awaiting the Royal Assent. Unless we have a Royal Commission in the course of this evening a formal sitting for that purpose will have to be held to-morrow, but otherwise I propose that the House shall adjourn to-night till Wednesday.

Presentation Of Bill

Small Holdings Axd Allotments (Amendment)

Bill to amend The Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1907. —[ Mr. Seddon.]— Presented and read the first time.

Development And Road Improve Ment Funds Bill

Order read for further consideration of Lords Amendments.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."

Before the House agrees to that Motion, I desire to ask the Government whether they are not in a position to state the names of the Development Commissioners? The House will recollect on the last occasion that this matter was raised before the House the Prime Minister gave a distinct undertaking that before we were asked to consider the Lords Amendments to this Bill the names of the Commissioners should be stated, and it evidently is a matter of importance that before the House parts with the full control of the Bill these names should be before it. Certainly I venture to say that we have a right to ask the Government whether they are now in a position to state those names, and if they cannot state all the names, perhaps they will state some of them?

The practice of the House has been to state the names of Commissioners of this kind altogether if the names can be stated altogether, and sometimes to state the names of some, although they are not fully appointed. I regret to say that although this matter has had and is having the serious consideration of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and of the Government, we are not at present in a position to inform the House as to who the Commissioners are proposed to be. I hope nevertheless the Lords Amendments will be considered now, and that we shall deal with them on their merits. It is really because of the important position which the Commissioners are to occupy that their nomination has been delayed. Everybody is agreed that the best possible men who can be obtained ought to be obtained, and the difficulties have arisen partly from the importance of the duties which they will have to perform.

May I ask whether we are to understand that these Commissioners have not yet been appointed?

None of them? Then in view of the fact that this is a very important matter, will the right hon. Gentleman give us an undertaking that they will not be appointed before next February?

I am afraid I cannot give that undertaking on behalf of the Government, because the result would be that the Bill, if passed, would be hung up in its operation between this and next February.

Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered," put, and agreed to.

Clause 1—(Power To Make Advances For Certain Purposes)

(1) The Treasury may, upon the recommendation of the Development Commissioners appointed under this Act, make advances to a Government Department, or through a Government Department to a public authority, university, or institution, or an association of persons or company not trading for profit, either by way of grant or by way of loan, or partly in one way and partly in the other, and upon such terms and subject to such conditions as they may think fit, for any of the following purposes:—

  • (a) Aiding and developing agriculture and rural industries by promoting scientific research, instruction and experiments in the science, methods and practice of agriculture (including the provision of farm institutes), the organisation of co-operation, instruction in marketing produce, and the extension of the provision of small holdings; and by the adoption of any other means which appear calculated to develop agriculture and rural industries;
  • (b) Forestry (including the purchase and planting of land, the conducting of inquiries, experiments, and research for the purpose of promoting forestry and the teaching of methods of afforestation);
  • (c) The reclamation and drainage of land;
  • (d) The general improvement of rural transport (including the making of light railways but not including the construction or improvement of roads);
  • (e) The construction and improvement of harbours;
  • (f) The construction and improvement of inland navigations;
  • (g) The development and improvement of fisheries;
  • and for any other purpose calculated to promote the economic development of the United Kingdom.

    (2) All applications for advances under this Part of this Act shall be made to the Treasury in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury.

    (3) No advance shall be made for any purpose which might be carried out under the provisions of the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908, upon any terms or conditions different from those contained in that statute except for some special reason which shall be stated in the Annual Report of the Development Commissioners.

    Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1), after the word "college" ["or through a Government Department to a public authority, university, college"], to insert the word "school."

    moved, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    I promised this Amendment to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. J. G. Talbot), although I confess that my opinion was that the point was really within the words of the Clause already. However, I promised that this Amendment should be inserted in another place.

    House agreed with the Lords in the said Amendment.

    Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words "or company not trading for profit," and insert the words "corporate or unincorporate."

    moved, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    I think perhaps two or three words of explanation ought to be given in respect of this Motion. We leave out the words "or company not trading for profit" here merely in order to recast the Clause, and we agree also to insert the words "corporate or unincorporate," but the practical effect of the agreement is that the two exceptions which were suggested may with security and safety be made, namely, grants of sums of money for the purpose of enabling the local authority to get assistance for the building of a harbour or the construction of a light railway service, and which will be incorporated in an Amendment hereafter to be made. I moved certain words on the Report stage in this House, but they have been reconsidered in another place, and, on the whole, the Government thought it would be well to take the form there adopted.

    I have been approached in regard to this Amendment by a great many people. I understand that no body of people are to have any access to these public funds or to have access to these funds except for a specific purpose.

    May I ask what is the meaning of the Lords Amendment later on in the. Clause, and the words which it is proposed to insert in lieu of those left out? That Amendment provides that no advance shall be made to any association of persons trading for a profit except to enable a public authority to secure within its area the construction, maintenance and working of a light railway by a railway company, or of a pier or harbour by a Harbour Board or Harbour Commissioners. Do I understand it is proposed to empower the Commissioners to make grants to a public authority or to a railway company to construct a railway to be worked for private profit? If not, that is the obvious meaning of the words here set down. I remember upstairs in Committee how Members on this side in common with Members on the other side, and on these benches, agreed about the unwisdom of subsidising any railway company, even for any light railway; but if this Amendment means, as it appears on the face of it to mean, that public Commissioners are to be allowed to spend money in making light railways to be worked by a private railway company for profit, then I would anticipate a very general consensus of opinion that that is a most unwise thing to do, and that the Lords Amendment standing on the Paper requires still further Amendment. I ask therefore whether the railways to be dealt with under this Clause are private railways worked for private profit or whether they are to belong to the public authority which finds the money?

    4.0 p.m.

    I recollect what was done upstairs, and we are now asked to change what the Committee did. I agree with the hon. Member, and I was one of those who supported him at the time. I think it would tend to very undesirable negotiations with the big railways in this country if they were to receive grants of public money from the Development Commissioners to make what are really branch lines on their railways. Everybody knows that there are many light railways which are not light railways at all except merely technically. Everybody knows that they are like other parts of the system, and except in regard to some provisions as to fences and construction they are part of the general system, and I hold it is very undesirable that the big railway companies should be brought into this sort of contact with the Government themselves and that Commissioners, however highly placed or impartial, should have the right to throw public money into the coffers of one company rather than another. Exactly the same question can be raised on the question of piers and harbours. There are in this country a great many small ports competing one with another, and it is quite conceivable that- one of these small ports may be subsidised, so as to divert traffic from another port. That would not be fair to the other port, that competition, which it is quite right they should be subject to, should be made all the keener by means of the money which they contribute. Altering what we did upstairs will to some extent open the door to these dangers which the Committee was almost unanimous in desiring to shut out. For these reasons, though I have no doubt it will be useless to push my opposition further than uttering a protest. I greatly regret what has been done in this matter.

    There is another matter in connection with this Amendment of which I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give an explanation. In the Committee a general understanding was arrived at that no grant would be made under these circumstances to any co-operative or other association to the detriment of a legitimate trader, and we were led to believe that provision would be made to guard against such a thing. I remember the words were altered, and we inserted "the organisation of co-operation." The interpretation of that might be very elastic, and might be extended to a degree which might not be fair or just to the traders of the country. The co-operative societies in Great Britain are very different from what they are in Ireland, and societies not trading for profit might include associations such as the Irish Agricultural Association, which in reality trades for profit, because all the shareholders are gaining very considerably by the trading, and that will be liable to misconstruction in a great number of cases. It would be very unfair under this Bill to have any grant or loan made to any association to the detriment of the legitimate traders of the country, which would be a very serious matter. The matter has been taken up not only in Ireland but in Great Britain. Having been on the Committee, I received several communications with regard to the matter, and I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say whether the provisions at present contained in the Bill will not be sufficient to safeguard the legitimate trader from the encroachment of the co-operative society?

    On a point of Order. I understand that the question before the House is the Amendment on line 11, but discussion has been going on on Sub-section (4) which is to be inserted in line 20 on page 2. If we allow these words to be inserted, would it be in order on Sub-section 4 to leave out all the words after "profit"?

    I have doubts about the Amendment on Sub-section (4). I rather think that is a privileged Amendment. The matter is rather wrapped up in mystery, because the Lords Amendment on lines 16 and 17 to leave out "Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908," taken in conjunction with the Amendment on line 20, after "Commissioners," to insert a new Subsection, covers the case of advances under the Small Holdings Act and the Light Rail-ways Act. If there are any other statutes under which advances could be made besides those two I think those Amendments would be privileged Amendments. If there were no other statutes under which advances could be made as well as under this Act I do not think they would be privileged, and I intended, when we reached that point, to have sought for information. I do not want to commit myself at present.

    I am afraid in that case, undoubtedly, this Amendment will come within the rule with regard to privilege, because there are other statutes which would come within that Amendment, and it would undoubtedly extend the objects on which public money could be expended, and if that is your view we will not persist with the Motion. As far as the Government is concerned we shall allow this to be negatived if that is the view taken by you.

    After the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer it is clear that advances might be extended to other matters. Therefore that would be a privileged Amendment.

    I want to know how we stand? We passed an Amendment to insert the word "school" just now.

    That is only an extension of "institution or college." It was obvious that the word "school" was so near the word "college" and so near the word "institution" that, for the sake of clearness, and in order to make perfectly clear what the House has decided, it was desirable that the word "school" should be inserted. Therefore I accepted that and took no objection to it.

    Are we to understand that the Government are going to disagree with all privileged Amendments, because yesterday they waived their right with regard to privilege on a very large number of Amendments?

    Before we pass away from this matter may I press home the argument of my colleague?

    The Government are not pressing the Amendment at all, but are withdrawing it, and in the second place it would really not have covered the case of co-operation. It would confine the associations to be subsidised purely to railway companies and harbours.

    During the passage of the Bill in this House a statement was made by a responsible Minister on the Treasury Bench that money under this Bill could be devoted to these objects, and a great feeling of unrest has been caused in Ireland amongst legitimate traders who have put hundreds of thousands of pounds into their businesses.

    I must raise a point of Order. My hon. Friend may rest assured that this Amendment has nothing to do with it. It will be taken in conjunction with the Lords Amendment on line 20, which refers exclusively to railways and harbours, and it has nothing whatever to do with co-operative societies, and I submit that it is out of order to discuss that question at all.

    I regret very much that the Government have taken the course of not agreeing with the Lords on this Amendment. The effect of this, unless the Amendment is put in, will be to strike out of the Bill all light railways and all harbours, and that is no doubt the reason why the hon. Baronet supports that view, but personally I am not in favour of that view and never have been. If you are to have this scheme at all it must be made a good and workable scheme, and one of the most essential parts is to improve light railways and improve harbours, but under this Bill, unless these words are inserted, the only people who will be able to carry out the work will be a public authority. Whoever heard of a public authority constructing a light railway! I do not think they can legally do such a thing at all. The result would be that they would have to come for a private Bill in order to get the power to construct a light railway, and I do not believe myself, under present conditions, there would be the least chance of their obtaining that power. What is the result of that? There is no one who can construct a light railway and can be assisted under this Bill unless you put in the companies. My Noble Friend (Viscount Morpeth) says there is great danger of assisting one company against another, and other dangers of like character. This provision has been the law of the land for 13 years.

    [ROYAL ASSENT—Message to attend Lords Commissioners. The House, went, and having returned, Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to—
  • 1. Merchandise Marks (Ireland) Act. 1909.
  • 2. Fisheries (Ireland) Act, 1909.
  • 3. Diseases of Animals Act, 1909.
  • 4. Prisons (Scotland) Act, 1909.
  • 5. Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Act. 1908, Amendment Act, 1909.
  • 6. Education (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1909.
  • 7. Cinematograph Act, 1909.
  • 8. Weeds and Agricultural Seeds (Ireland) Act, 1909.
  • 9. Health Resorts and Watering Places (Ireland) Act, 1909.
  • 10. Wild Animals in Captivity Protection (Scotland) Act, 1909.
  • 11. Electric Lighting Act, 1909.
  • 12. Police (Liverpool Inquiry) Act, 1909.
  • 13. Local Registration of Title (Ireland) Act, 1909.
  • 14. Motor Car (International Circulation) Act, 1909.
  • 15. County Councils Mortgages Act, 1909.
  • 16. Oaths Act, 1909.
  • 17. Police Act, 1909.
  • 18. Naval Discipline Act, 1909.
  • 19. Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 6) Act, 1909.
  • 20. Colinton Tramways Order Confirmation Act, 1909.
  • 21. Robert Gordon's Technical College and Aberdeen Endowments Trust Order Confirmation Act, 1909.
  • 22. Cardiff Corporation Act, 1909.]
  • I wish to point out that the power which is proposed to be conferred upon light railway companies under the Amendment made in another place is power which already exists under the Light Railways Act of 1896. A light railway cannot be made unless the body authorised to make it "undertake themselves to construct and work, or to contract for the construction or working of the light railway." Therefore I should say that upon the merits it is desirable, and indeed I understand it is the view of the Government that it is desirable, that this Amendment should be inserted. Under these circumstances I desire to know what is the policy of the Government in regard to privileged Amendments. I think we ought to know that. My hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) pointed out that in dealing with another Bill yesterday the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Sir William Collins), apparently with the assent of the Government, stated "These Amendments are made, I take it, in furtherance of the object of the Bill, and do not materially affect the character of the Bill.' Is that not absolutely true of the particular Amendments we are now considering? Is not that the very way you would describe them? The hon. Member for St. Pancras further said, "They supply machinery which was, perhaps, to some extent, lacking in the form of the Bill as it left the House." That is exactly what these Amendments do. The hon. Member moved, "That the House do not insist on its privilege." I wish to speak with all respect of the privileges of this House. What is their object? It is not to bar the House from making necessary and proper Amendments on a Bill because these Amendments happen to be suggested by another place. That does not safeguard the House in any respect. I can understand privileges of this kind having been created originally to protect this House against aggressions by unauthorised persons, and to lay down a general rule behind which it could be sheltered. That was when it was a weakling body, but now that it is a powerful body, let each Amendment be considered on its merits. If it is good, let it be accepted; and, if it is bad, let it be rejected. My hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), and my Noble Friend the Member for South Birmingham (Viscount Morpeth) do not like the Amendment on its merits, but the Government think it is a good Amendment, and that it is necessary in order to carry out the purposes of the Bill. What nonsense to refuse to accept the Amendment because it happens to have been put in the Bill by the House of Lords! That is not the way to protect the privileges of the House of Commons. It is the way to bring the privileges of the House of Commons into contempt. I hope the House will accept the Motion proposed by the Solicitor-General and agree with the Lords in this Amendment.

    I do not agree with the Noble Lord in his approval of the effect of this Amendment. I do agree with him in the principle laid down that if an Amendment of this character is on the merits a desirable Amendment, it is a suitable occasion for waiving the privileges of the House, and I believe that that has been frequently done on the Motion of the Government and of private Members. In the present instance I do not agree with the Noble Lord that it would be a good thing to waive the privilege of the House in order to insert this Amendment for the purpose of allowing advances to be made to enable railways companies to construct light railways in certain districts, because it is perfectly plain from the wording of the Amendment that the purpose is to enable railway companies, that is companies trading for profit, to construct light railways. The words show that quite clearly. They will not construct themselves and work under public control, but they will enter into a bargain with the railway company to construct a branch line in the district. I do not think that is a proper object under this Bill to make advances for the purpose of aiding one private company to compete with another, thereby interfering with the legitimate competition of private enterprise. I object therefore to the Amendment on its merits, and I do not think for that reason that it would be wise to waive the privilege of the House. If the Amendment is to be treated as a breach of privilege, of course there is not much use consuming the time of the House debating the subject at any length, but my attention was directed to a question asked by the hon. Member for North-West Manchester (Mr. Joynson Hicks) as to whether he was justified in assuming that the words of the Bill as it stands made it impossible to make any grants to co-operative associations competing with private traders. The Attorney-General, I think it was, replied that that was so. There is not the slightest foundation for that statement. Nothing can be plainer than the wording of the Bill as it stands. It is perfectly open to make grants to co-operative associations competing with private traders. These associations do not trade for a profit. There are co-operative associations in this country like the Army and Navy Stores and the Civil Service Association, which have ceased to be bond fide cooperative associations, and do trade for profit, and their shares have gone to enormous premiums for that reason. But the moment they begin to trade for profit they cease to be a true co-operative association. The true co-operative association trades for the mutual benefit of its members, and if there is a profit at the end of the year it is divided among the shareholders in bonuses. But there is no doubt that under the words of the Bill it is perfectly open to the Development Commissioners to give grants to these co-operative associations. I think it a very improper thing to do. I do not suppose that the Government meant to do it, but nothing can be more certain under the wording of the Bill.

    There was another expression which meant the same thing—"aiding agriculture and rural industries by promoting scientific research, instruction and experiments in methods and practice of agriculture and co-operation." That is one of the things which touch us in Ireland. We have an association which is not trading for profit which has about 300 associations organised by it, affiliated to it, which are trading for profit. It spends its money on organising and assisting these associations trading for profit, and obtains from them a certain levy towards its resources. They could get a grant under this Bill, and that would be a most improper use of the money. I myself have been criticised very severely far opposing, as I always have opposed and always will continue to oppose, the granting of public money to co-operative associations in competition with private traders, not because I am opposed to co-operation—because I recognise the enormous benefits that have been conferred by co-operation—but I am opposed to, either directly or indirectly, taking the taxpayers money to subsidise other persons to compete with those who pay the taxes. To do so I think is perfectly monstrous. While every opportunity and fair play should be given to co-operators to compete as well as they are able to compete with private traders there should be a distinct understanding that so long as private traders pay taxes these taxes should not be used to subsidise their competitors.

    I am sorry to raise another point of Order. We are now discussing a Motion which I understand you have ruled to be an infringement of the privileges of the House of Commons. Therefore the Motion of my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Samuel Evans) would not be in order. We have not moved to waive.

    It is not necessary to move to waive if you move to agree. Although the Solicitor-General has moved to agree with the Lords, it is open to him to vote against that Motion.

    I understood that where you ruled that a Motion was a breach of privilege of the House of Commons it was necessary that some Member should get up to move to waive the privilege?

    With regard to this Amendment, these associations in connection with small harbours and light railways are of a kind which do not trade for profit.

    I am referring to the kind of light railways which we contemplate assisting—light railways in rural areas, which would not pay. But as Mr. Speaker has ruled that this is a privileged Amendment the Government certainly will not persist with their Motion that the House agree with the Lords Amendments. We do not propose to waive any of our privileges in a matter of this kind or in any matter. The only reason why we proposed to agree with this Amendment was that we did not think it worth while to have a quarrel with the Lords over this matter. That was the only reason why my hon. and learned Friend moved, but if it is privileged we shall certainly not persist with the Motion. With reference to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) this Amendment has nothing to do with cooperative societies. This is an Amendment dealing with harbours and light railways and whether this Amendment was agreed to or not would make no difference to co-operative societies.

    The attitude of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lloyd-George) is a volte face compared with the announcement of his colleague (Sir S. Evans). I do not intend to go into what the hon. Member for Mayo said because I agree with him entirely that as it stands either with or without the Lords Amendment this Bill will certainly put it within the power of the Commissioners to make these grants. My special object is to inform the Chancellor of the Exchequer of a fact with which evidently he is quite unfamiliar, that he is now refusing on a point of etiquette to accept Amendments which he admits on the merits are good Amendments.

    I beg your pardon. All I said was that these are perfectly harmless Amendments, and that we did not think it worth while to enter into a contest with the Lords one way or the other.

    The Solicitor-General did indicate that in his opinion they would be an improvement to the Bill. I wish to remind the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he says he will not waive the privileges of this House on anything at all, and because an Amendment is said to be privileged therefore it should not be accepted in this House, that last night this House accepted 30 Amendments I at least of a financial nature, made by the House of Lords, and waived its privileges in each single case. I really do not see why a Bill dealing with asylum officers' superannuation should be improved in another place, while a Bill of this character, which is far more important, should not be permitted to have an Amendment made, just on this wretched point of etiquette which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has put before the House.

    I must confess that I am a little astonished that the Government do not allow this Amendment, which is very important in regard to light railways, piers, and harbours. I was extremely surprised to hear the objections of hon. Members below the Gangway, because I think if any country has had the advantage of the aid which is given to light railways, that country is Ireland. It has had the greatest amount of advantage from such a system as that, which we are now considering. What is the ordinary state of the case in regard to light railways? A sum of money is invariably raised or obtained from the county council and from land owners of the district, but very often where a light railway is promoted the amount obtained falls short of what is needed, and in these circumstances a grant would enable the light railway to be made for the benefit of the particular locality in more than one instance, to my own knowledge, that has occurred. A light railway has invariably to be constructed and worked by one of the larger railway companies, otherwise it would be necessary to provide separate engines, carriages and wagons. Under this proposal the arrangements are in the interest of the community and particularly in the interest of those districts which, without such aid being

    Division No. 915.]

    AYES.

    [4.50 p.m.

    Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard KnightErskine, David C.
    Adkins, W. Ryland D.Cawley, Sir FrederickEssex, R. W.
    Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.Channing, Sir Francis AllstonEvans, Sir S. T.
    Alden, PercyCheetham, John FrederickEverett, R. Lacey
    Ashton, Thomas GairCherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Falconer, J.
    Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert HenryChurchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Ferens, T. R.
    Atherley-Jones, L.Compton-Rickett, Sir J.Fuller, John Michael F.
    Baker, Joseph A.Condon, Thomas JosephFulierton, Hugh
    Barker, Sir JohnCorbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Gibb, James (Harrow)
    Barnes, G. N.Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)Gibson, J. P.
    Barran, Rowland HirstCory, Sir Clifford JohnGlover, Thomas
    Beale, W. P.Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Griffith, Ellis J.
    Beck, A. CecilCowan, W. H.Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill
    Berridge, T. H. D.Crosfield, A. H.Gulland, John W.
    Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford)Cross, AlexanderHancock, J. G.
    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)Cullinan, J.Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)
    Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineCurran, Peter FrancisHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
    Bowerman, C. W.Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
    Brigg, Sir JohnDavies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Hedges, A. Paget
    Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire)Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnDilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesHenry, Charles S.
    Byles, William PollardDuncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Ellbank, Master ofHerbert T. Arnold (Wycombe)

    given, would not obtain light railways or harbours. I greatly regret that the Government do not see their way to accept the Amendment. I think they little understand what a benefit they are removing from the smaller districts in Wales, the country districts, and in Ireland by refusing the Lords Amendment.

    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and negatived.

    Drafting Amendments made.

    Lords Amendment: Leave out Subsection (2).

    This is an Amendment raising privilege, because it diminishes the object on which the grant may be made.

    I move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    The Chancellor of the Exchequer upstairs told us that this was a trivial Amendment, and therefore void of effect. It did not do anything at all; it was merely a general statement, of no value of any kind. That being so, I think it is hardly worth while to quarrel with the House of Lords in regard to the omission of a statement which is of no value. I hope the House will agree with the Lords Amendment, to remove words which are vague and general, and may be mischievous.

    Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    The House divided: Ayes, 179; Noes, 38.

    Hodge, JohnMorton, Alpheus CleophasStanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)
    Horniman, Emslie JohnMurray, James (Aberdeen, E.)Steadman, W. C.
    Hudson, WalterNolan, JosephStewart, Halley (Greenock)
    Illingworth, Percy H.Norman, Sir HenryStraus, B. S. (Mile End)
    Jardine, Sir J.Nussey, Sir WillansSummerbell, T.
    Jenkins, J.O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Sutherland, J. E.
    Johnson, John (Gateshead)O'Donneil, John (Mayo, S.)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
    Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)O'Grady, J.Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)
    Jones, Leif (Appleby)O'Malley, WilliamTennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Parker, James (Halifax)Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
    Jowett, F. W.Paul, HerbertThomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)
    Joyce, MichaelPearce, William (Limehouse)Toulmin, George
    King, Alfred John (Knutsford)Pirie, Duncan V.Vivian, Henry
    Laidlaw, Sir RobertPonsonby, Arthur A. W. H.Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
    Lambert, GeorgePrice, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Walsh, Stephen
    Lamont, NormanPrice, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)Walters, John Tudor
    Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Priestley, Arthur (Grantham)Walton, Joseph
    Layland-Barratt, Sir FrancisPriestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
    Lehmann, R. C.Radford, G. H.Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
    Lewis, John HerbertRea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)Warner, Thomas Courteney T.
    Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidRedmond, William (Clare)Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
    Lynch, A. (Clare, W.)Rees, J. D.Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Lynch, H. B.Rendall, AthelstanWaterlow, D. S.
    Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Richards, Thomas (W. Monmouth)Watt, Henry A.
    Maclean, DonaldRichards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)
    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J,Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
    Macpherson, J. T.Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Whitehead, Rowland
    MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)Robertson, J. M. (Tyneslde)Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas p.
    M'Callum, John M.Robson, Sir William SnowdonWilkle, Alexander
    M'Micking, Major G.Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)Williamson, Sir A.
    Maddison, FrederickRoche, John (Galway, East)Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
    Marnham, F. J.Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
    Massie, J.Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Masterman, C. F. G.Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Menzles, Sir WalterSears, J. E.
    Moltene, Percy AlportShipman, Dr. John G.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.

    Montagu, Hon. E. S.Soames, Arthur Wellesley
    Morse, L. L.Soares, Ernest J.

    NOES.

    Anson, Sir William ReynellDouglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Remnant, James Farquharson
    Balcarres, LordDuncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)Ridsdale, E. A.
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeGardner, ErnestRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Banner, John S. HarmoodGoulding, Edward AlfredRonaldshay, Earl of
    Bignold, Sir ArthurGretton, JohnScott. Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
    Butcher, Samuel HenryGuinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edmunds)Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
    Carlile, E. HildredHarrison-Broadley, H. B.Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Unlv.)
    Castlereagh, ViscountKennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.Valentia, Viscount
    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Kerry, Earl ofWolff, Gustav Wilhelm
    Chaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryKimber, Sir HenryWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
    Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Viscount

    Courthope, G. LoydPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)Morpeth and Mr. Stewart Bowles.
    Craik, Sir HenryPeel, Hon. W. R. W.

    Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (3) leave out the words "The Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908," and insert the words "any statute."

    I move "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    I think to disagree with an Amendment merely because it is privileged is something like the propriety of an old maid being introduced into the proceedings of this House: you have merely got to suggest that something is a breach of privilege, and the Government dare not accept it, however desirable it may be. I regard that as utterly un- worthy of the House of Commons and utterly unworthy of the Government. As to this particular Amendment, I do not think it can be maintained after the alteration in regard to the words "corporate and unincorporated"

    5.0 p.m.

    I think it unnecessary to disagree with the Lords on the question of privilege. This matter was discussed fully before and divided upon in this House.

    Question, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (3) after the word "Commissioners" insert as-new Sub-section "(4) No advance shall be made to any association of persons trading for profit, except to enable a public authority to secure within its area the construction, maintenance, and working of a light railway by a railway company, or of a pier or harbour by a Harbour Board or Harbour Commissioners."

    Question, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (3) after the, word "Commissioners" insert as new Sub-section, "(5) Before making any recommendation for an advance under this Part of this Act the Development Commissioners shall consider the matter with special reference to the magnitude of the undertaking and the interests likely to be affected, and the extent and situation of any land necessary for the undertaking, and whether such land is likely to be acquired by agreement, and if a majority of the Commissioners consider that their proposals should be laid before Parliament they shall forward a draft recommendation to the Treasury. The Treasury shall not act upon such draft recommendation until it has lain for 30 days during the Session of Parliament on the Table of both Houses of Parliament, and if either House during those 30 days presents an Address to His Majesty against the draft no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, but without prejudice to the making by the Commissioners of a new draft recommendation."

    moved, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    I think this Amendment is not advisable, and I think it is also unnecessary. It is not advisable because it lays it down whenever the Commissioners by a bare majority, which may be a majority of one, decide that a certain scheme is likely to be a very large one, that makes it necessary for the Treasury, in the first place, to decline to sanction the loan until and unless the matter has been brought before Parliament, and the draft recommendations lie on the Table for the period of 30 days, during which time, if either House presents an Address to His Majesty against the draft, nothing further can be done, as I understand, except by Provisional Order. The Government think that that is putting much too severe a restriction on the powers of the Commissioners. I think the House may trust to the Commissioners to make a scheme such as is described by the words of this Amendment. We do not think that any restrictions further than those already contained in the Bill should be placed upon the Commissioners, and that certainly it is not right to say that because there is a majority of one that that should make it absolutely necessary for the Treasury to decline unless these further conditions are complied with.

    I do not think that this is a very important matter, but I regret the decision of the Government, because I think that the Amendment so far from restricting the operations of the Commissioners would really operate to enlarge them. I do not quite understand the reference of the Solicitor-General to a majority. Of course the Commissioners will have to act for a majority in all cases, and if they make a recommendation of any kind by a majority, that would be the recommendation of the Commissioners. I do not know according to our English principles how otherwise they could act. What this Amendment provides is that if the Commissioners think that a scheme laying before them is too big to go forward under the ordinary provisions of this Bill, or that they would normally refuse it, they are to have the power to send a draft recommendation of it to the Treasury, subject to this condition, that the big scheme is to be laid before "Parliament, in this modified way. I quite agree that in form it appears to be a restriction, but in fact it is a real extension of their powers. Unless you put this Amendment in the Bill, what will happen? A big scheme is brought before the Commissioners, and they say it is too big and not the kind of thing that they are prepared, with their limited funds, to deal with. Therefore, they would say, "We shall refuse it," and that would be the only course they could take. If you put in this Amendment they have a third alternative. They can pass it subject to it coming before the Houses of Parliament, which seems to me to be a desirable improvement. I regret, in the interests of the Bill, that the Government have not seen their way to accept it.

    Question, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment" put, and agreed to.

    Clause 2—(Establishment Of Development Fund)

    Sub-section (4): The Treasury shall cause an account to be prepared and transmitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General for examination, on or before the thirtieth day of September in every year, showing the receipts into and issues out of the Development Fund in the financial year ended on the thirty-first day of March preceding, and the Comptroller and Auditor-General shall certify and report upon the same, and such account and report shall be laid before the House of Commons by the Treasury on or before the thirty-first day of January in the following year if Parliament be then sitting, and. if not sitting, then within one week after Parliament shall be next assembled.

    Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (4), leave out the words "House of Commons" ["laid before the House of Commons"], and insert instead thereof the word "Parliament."

    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Clause 3—(Constitution Of Development Commissioners)

    Sub-section (1): For the purposes of this Part of this Act there shall be established a Commission consisting of five Commissioners, to be styled the Development Commissioners and to be appointed by the Treasury, of whom one to be appointed by the Treasury shall be chairman.

    Lords Amendment: Leave out the words "there shall be established a Commission consisting of," and insert instead thereof the words "it shall be lawful for His Majesty by warrant under the sign-manual to appoint."

    moved, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    This matter was brought before the House by the hon. Member for London University (Sir Philip Magnus). The effect of the Amendment will be that the Commissioners will not be appointed by the Treasury but by His Majesty under sign-manual.

    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Drafting Amendments also agreed to.

    Clause 4—(Powers And Duties Of Commissioners)

    Sub-section (4): The Commissioners may also frame schemes with respect to any of the matters for which advances may be made under this Part of this Act with a view to their adoption by a Government Department or other body or persons to whom an advance may be made.

    Lords Amendment: Leave out Subsection (4).

    moved, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    This matter was considered in Committee upstairs, and also very fully upon Report here. The Amendment would make it impossible for the Commissioners themselves to initiate a scheme for any public work in accordance with the provisions of this measure. We desire that that latitude should be given to them. As was pointed out before, it may very well be the case that certain schemes put forward by various bodies or persons might not recommend themselves to the Commissioners, and might not secure the recommendation of the Commissioners to the Treasury, but that a sort of amalgamation of one or more of those schemes might be desirable, and that therefore it should be within the power of the Commissioners to initiate a scheme. I recommend to the House that view of the matter. Such a power cannot do any harm, and may do good in bringing schemes forward which may be very useful for public purposes.

    I am sorry the Government disagree with this Amendment. I understood in the proceedings in Grand Committee that the Commissioners were to be a sort of judicial body. This provision enables them not only to consider certain schemes brought before them, but also gives them the power to initiate schemes. The only argument adduced by the learned Solicitor-General for disagreeing with the Lords is that a case might arise in which two or three schemes might be brought before the Commissioners, and that the Commissioners not approving of any of them might by a sort of arrangement or amalgamation make out another scheme. If this Amendment were accepted there would be nothing whatever to prevent the Commissioners saying to the parties, "We do not accept that scheme, but we have another scheme which has been put before us by, say, B. Go and con- suit with B, bring up an amended scheme, and we will consider whether we will approve of it." If this Amendment is not accepted they may be bringing forward schemes of their own, and their judgment as to other schemes will not be unbiassed but determined by their own schemes, to the detriment, perhaps, of other schemes. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hear hon. Members below the Gangway cheering the decision of the Government, but let hon. Members think over the matter. They might bring a scheme before the Commissioners, who might have an altogether new scheme, and the only consequence of that would be that the Commissioners might advocate their own schemes; and hon. Members below the Gangway should recollect that the Commissioners have the power of rejecting any scheme, and once they reject it as dead and cannot be brought forward again. I want the Commissioners to reject a scheme on its merits, and not because they have a scheme of their own, and therefore I hope the Government will reconsider their decision.

    As the hon. Baronet who has just spoken referred to us sitting on these benches, I should like to put the view which occurs to us on this matter. May I remind him in the first place that the Commissioners have power to reject schemes, whether this is in the Bill or not. Therefore that argument does not apply.

    If they did reject it it would be because they did not think it a good scheme, but now they may reject it not because the scheme is not a good one, but because they have a scheme of their own.

    They have the power to reject in any case. But may I also remind the hon. Baronet that the Commissioners have the power to appoint advisory committees. They have certain officers under their control, and therefore they are in a position to get information superior to any local authority or any other authority which may put forward a scheme. It is for that reason that we are disposed to accept the Bill as it stands, and to reject the Lords Amendment.

    This Amendment would very much affect Clause 1, Subsection 1, dealing with universities, schools, and institutions. It is possible that a university, for instance, might be walling to submit a scheme to the Commissioners asking for their assistance in carrying it out; but it would be quite another affair if the Commissioners had the power themselves to put forward a scheme and impose it upon the university, saying, "Either you adopt our scheme or we give no grant." It seems to me that this Sub-section gives an undue power of interference to the Commissioners in regard to the very important bodies set out in Clause 1, and to that extent, so far from facilitating the work, it will be very detrimental to it. Instead of having schemes sent up by the different authorities and, if they are satisfactory, passed by the Commissioners, you will have the Commissioners drawing up schemes and plans of their own, which almost certainly will not be adopted by or give pleasure to the people for whom they are meant, who probably know their own affairs better than the Commissioners do. Thus instead of the work being advanced it will be hindered.

    I do not think the Solicitor-General made out a very strong case against this Amendment, and I regret the decision of the Government. While agreeing with what has been said by my hon. Friends, I have the further objection that this Sub-section gives to the Commissioners the power of making schemes with a view to their adoption by Government Departments. I do not think Government Departments require, or ought to require, a body outside Commissioners to make schemes for their adoption. If there is to be a scheme of agricultural education, for instance, I would far rather that it came from the Board of Agriculture. If there is to be a scheme of light railways, the Light Railways Commissioners are the proper people to submit it to the Government. Why does the Solicitor-General want to give these gentlemen the power—and the power, I suppose, connotes the duty—of recommending to Government Departments schemes which those Departments ought themselves to be quite competent to carry out? Could we be met to this extent— that the right of the Commissioners to suggest schemes, by request or otherwise, to Government Departments should be excluded? At least, Government Departments should be saved from unsolicited schemes being put forward by the Commissioners. The Light Railways Commissioners or the Harbour Department of the Board of Trade do not want schemes put before them by these gentlemen. There will be submitted to the Commissioners a thousand and one schemes, on all of which they cannot be experts, and they will be in the hands of their advisory experts. I think Government Departments might very well be left with undivided responsibility for schemes within the purview of their official duties.

    I do not quite appreciate the position of the Noble Lord. All that the Commissioners have to do is this. They might have before them a dozen or even a hundred schemes dealing with, say, afforestation. They would go into the matter very carefully, and after instituting inquiries they might come to the conclusion that none of the schemes submitted to them, either by Government Departments or by any other body, quite met their view of what ought to be done under the circumstances. They would then either frame a scheme of their own, absolutely independent of all the other schemes, or take the whole of those schemes together, boil them down, and pick out the best of them. They would say, "We do not quite like any of these schemes, but, having looked into the matter very carefully, we have framed one of our own," and they would then send it on to the Treasury. If it dealt with afforestation the Treasury would be bound to send it to the Agricultural Department, and the Government would be the final arbiters. I think, after this explanation, hon. Members opposite will find that, on the whole, the Bill without the Amendment would better answer the purpose which they have in mind. They do not want schemes to be either taken or rejected as they stand. What they really want is that the matters should be carefully considered, that the best advice should be taken, and that the Commissioners should not be compelled by the form of the Bill merely to accept or reject, but that, if they think there is a better alternative, they should have the power of referring it to the Government Department concerned in the form of a separate scheme as that which commends itself to their judgment after complete inquiry as being the best.

    I do not find myself at all differing with regard to the object the Chancellor of the Exchequer has laid down, but I am unconvinced that this is the proper or the best way of carrying it out. Without this Sub-section everything the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants could be done. Schemes come before the Commissioners and they have to make a report upon them. There is nothing to prevent their reporting that in their view the schemes are ineffective in some particulars, and that what is wanted is a scheme of such and such a character. That might then be taken up by any of the parties concerned, and presented for their consideration. I think that is a better plan, and that it is in effect what the Chancellor of the Exchequer suggests the Commissioners should do under this Subsection. If you retain the Sub-section, there is just the danger that some future Development Commissioners may go about framing schemes for themselves. I do not think that that would be at all a good plan. It is quite evident that such schemes would not have the same guarantee of inquiry, and consequently of excellence, that other schemes would have, because they would not have to be examined by an independent body. The whole idea of the Bill is that a public authority, or a Government Department, or some other responsible body, frames a scheme and submits it to the Development Commissioners, who examine it, and ascertain whether it is a good or a bad scheme. The Commissioners are the sieve through which all the schemes go. But if they start a scheme themselves it is evident that their examination of it, if they examined it at all, would be of a much less thorough character. Therefore, it appears to me that this Sub-section is a bad way of carrying out what the Chancellor of the Exchequer desires. The Clause without the Sub-section gives all the power the right hon. Gentleman wishes the Commissioners to have; there-fore it would be better to accept the Lords Amendment, and I shall so vote if the matter goes to a Division.

    I am really surprised at hon. Members opposite showing such a lack of faith in the Commissioners. If the Commissioners are to have power to reject a number of schemes, the rejection of which will cause a good many heart-burnings, surely they ought to be a body capable of putting their own scheme alongside those submitted to them. A body of men not equal to that would be entirely useless. The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Balcarres) is very anxious that nothing should be done to educate and enlighten Government Departments, who; he said, were quite competent to draft schemes and to do all that was necessary. Personally, I think that there is no body of men in the world who need more outside information than a Government Department. I should be interested to know whether the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Bowles) agrees with the Noble Lord on that point. Nothing could be more salutary than that there should be, in exceptional cases, a body of men who would not look at the matter from the narrow departmental point of view, but who, invested with the great authority given by this Bill, would look at the scheme as a whole, have regard to all the interests, and under those conditions put forward a scheme. That scheme would have to go before the Government Department, so that I think hon. Members opposite might very well let the Bill stand as it is.

    We look upon this Amendment as of great importance, and are glad that the Government have decided to disagree with it. Reference has been made to the number of schemes which will be put forward; but taking into consideration our experience of

    Division No. 916.]

    AYES.

    [5.30 p.m.

    Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)Falconer, JamesMaclean, Donald
    Adkins W. Ryland D.Ferens, T. R.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.
    Alden, PercyFuller, John Michael F.Macpherson, J. T.
    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Gibb, James (Harrow)MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)
    Ashton, Thomas GairGibson, J. P.M'Callum, John M.
    Atherley-Jones, L.Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert JohnM'Micking, Major G.
    Baker, Joseph A.Glover, ThomasMaddison, Frederick
    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)Mallet, Charles E.
    Barker, Sir JohnGulland, John W.Marnham, F. J.
    Barnes, G. N.Hancock, J. G.Massie, J.
    Beck, A. CecilHarcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)Masterman, C. F. G.
    Berridge, T. H. D.Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester)Meagher, Michael
    Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford)Hart-Davies, T.Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Menzies, Sir Walter
    Bowerman, C. W.Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Molteno, Percy Alport
    Bligg, Sir JohnHedges, A. PagetMontagu, Hon. E. S.
    Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire)Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Mooney, J. J.
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHenderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)Morrell, Philip
    Byles. William PollardHenry, Charles S.Morse, L. L.
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
    Cawley, Sir FrederickHerbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.)
    Channing, Sir Francis AllstonHigham, John SharpMurray, James (Aberdeen, E.)
    Cheetham, John FrederickHodge, JohnMyer, Horatio
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Hooper, A. G.Nolan, Joseph
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Horniman, Emslie JohnNussey, Sir Willans
    Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)Hudson, WalterO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
    Compton-Rickett, Sir J.Illingworth, Percy H.O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)
    Condon, Thomas JosephJardine, Sir J.O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)
    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Johnson, John (Gateshead)O'Grady, J.
    Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)Parker, James (Halifax)
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Jones, Leif (Appleby)Paul, Herbert
    Cory, Sir Clifford JohnJones, William (Carnarvonshire)Pearce, William (Limehouse)
    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Jowett, F. W.Pirie, Duncan V.
    Cowan, W. H.Joyce, MichaelPonsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
    Crosfield, A. H.Kekewich, Sir GeorgePrice, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
    Cross, AlexanderKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
    Cullinan, J.Laidlaw, Sir RobertPriestley, Arthur (Grantham)
    Curran, Peter FrancisLambert, GeorgeRadford, G. H.
    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Lamont, NormanRainy, A. Holland
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)Rea, Rt Hon. Russell (Gloucester)
    Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)Laylana-Barratt, Sir FrancisRedmond, John E. (Waterford)
    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesLehmann, R. C.Rendall, Athelstan
    Donelan, Captain A.Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)Richards, Thomas (W. Monmouth)
    Duncan, G. (Barrow-in-Furness)Lewis, John HerbertRichards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)
    Esmonde, Sir ThomasLloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidRidsdale, E. A.
    Essex, R. W.Lough, Rt. Hon. ThomasRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
    Esslemont, George BirnieLupton, ArnoldRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)
    Evans, Sir S. T.Lynch, H. B.Robertson, J. M. (Tyneslde)
    Everett, R. LaceyMacdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Robson, Sir William Snowdon

    Government Departments in the past, I am rather inclined to doubt whether the number will be so large as has been suggested. These Commissioners are to be appointed for a special work—afforestation, reclamation, and work of that character. It will be their duty to go carefully into all the schemes put forward; but if this Sub-section were omitted I am afraid there would be an entire lack of initiative on their part. Just as in the past, there will be no Government Department inclined to initiate schemes of this character, and therefore, the Bill will entirely fail in its object in that respect. If the measure is to be effective we must give the Commissioners some power of initiative.

    Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    The House divided: Ayes, 188; Noes, 41.

    Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)Summerbell, T.Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Sutherland, J. E.Waterlow, D. S.
    Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)Taylor, John W. (Durham)Watt, Henry A.
    Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)Tennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)
    Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)Whitehead. Rowland
    Sears, J. E.Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
    Seaverns, J. H.Thorne, William (West Ham)Wilkle, Alexander
    Shipman. Dr. John G.Tomkinson, Rt. Hon. JamesWilliamson, Sir A.
    Soares, Ernest J.Ure, Rt. Hon. AlexanderWilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
    Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.w.)Verney, F. W.Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)Vivian, HenryWood, T. M'Kinnon
    Steadman, W. C.Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Stewart, Halley (Greenock)Walsh, Stephen
    Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)Walters, John TudorTELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr.
    Straus, B. S. (Mile End)Ward. W. Dudley (Southampton)Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.

    NOES.

    Anson, Sir William ReynellGoulding, Edward AlfredPercy, Eart
    Balcarres, LordGuinness, Hon. R. (Haggerston)Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
    Bignold, Sir ArthurGuinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edm'ds.)Remnant, James Farquharson
    Bowles, G. StewartHarrlson-Broadley, H. B.Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Carlile, E HildredHeaton, John HennikerRonaldshay, Earl of
    Cave, GeorgeKennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool)
    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Kerry, Earl ofTalbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
    Clark, George SmithKimber, Sir HenryTalbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)
    Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.King, Sir Henry SeymourThornton, Percy M.
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)Valentia, Viscount
    Craik, Sir HenryLong, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.)Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. AkersLyttelton, Rt. Hon. Alfred
    Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)Morpeth, Viscount

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F. Banbury and Mr. Harmood-Banner.

    Fletcher, J. S.Nield, Herbert
    Gardner, ErnestPeel, Hon. W. R. W.

    Clause 5—(Power To Acquire Land For Certain Purposes)

    (1) Where an advance is made under this Part of this Act for any purpose which involves the acquisition of land, the Department, body, or persons to whom the advance is made, may acquire and hold land for the purpose, and where they are unable to acquire by agreement on reasonable terms any land which they consider necessary, they may apply to the Development Commissioners for an order empowering them to acquire the land compulsorily in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule to this Act.

    Lords Amendment agreed to: In Subsection (1), to add the words: "and the Commissioners shall have power to make such order."

    Part Ii

    Road Improvement

    Clause 8—(Powers Of Road Board)

    (1) The Road Board shall have power, with the approval of the Treasury—

  • (a) To make advances to county councils and other highway authorities in respect of the construction of new roads or the improvement of existing roads;
  • (b) themselves to construct and maintain any new roads,
  • which appear to the Board to be required for facilitating road traffic.

    (2) In making advances to highway authorities in respect of the construction of new roads, the Road Board may, where they think it desirable, also contribute towards the cost of maintenance of such new roads.

    The sums expended by the Road Board out of income on the construction of new roads or the acquisition of land, or in respect of any loan raised for any such purpose, shall not in any year exceed one-third of the estimated receipts of the Road Board for that year.

    Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1) paragraph ( a), after the word "roads" ["or the improvement of existing roads "], insert the words.", or towards meeting the extraordinary expenditure incurred by highway authorities on the maintenance of roads in consequence of motor traffic."

    Mr. Speaker, this we object to upon various grounds. First of all we submit to you that it is a breach of privilege in that it allows the expenditure of money to be extended in this way. The matter was discussed in Committee upstairs, and on Report in this House, and we asked the House to disagree with this Amendment.

    On the question of privilege I may say this: I have had some doubts with regard to this particular Amendment. I agree with the Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) that it is unde- sirable to press a question of privilege too far. It is possible that in a case of this sort the proper maintenance of the road is to keep it in a proper state of repair. I can understand that the best way to improve the road is to fill up the holes that are to be found in it, though that may technically not be a general act of improvement. I did not wish to smell out, so to speak, these breaches of privilege in order to raise meticulous objections to Amendments.

    After the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a previous Debate on this matter, the Government do in fact make a substantial concession, which came at the beginning of Clause (9). There is no doubt that under those words local authorities and highway authorities will be able to do a great deal. They will be able to have a certain amount of relief with regard to the heavy expenditure which has been thrown upon them by motor traffic. It is not called maintenance, but they do get a substantial share of money for purposes very analogous to those intended to be met by the insertion here by the House of Lords of their Amendment. On the other hand, perhaps I might give a word of warning to the Government. This Bill is meant, I believe, to be a popular Bill, and to earn popularity for its introducers. Now I assert, without any danger of contradiction, that if they do desire to be popular or to receive any gratitude indeed for the Bill, that this is the direction in which they will receive it. Anybody going down into the country districts will find that what has caused the most-outcry, and what really interests them most, and touches them most vitally, is this one subject, the question as to whether they will receive any assistance from the national Treasury with regard to the upkeep of the roads. The Government refuse it in name, and offer a certain amount in fact. But I have no very great desire to stand out for these special words.

    Question, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Drafting Amendments made.

    Clause 9—(Provisions As To Roads Constructed By Road Board)

    (1) For the purpose of the maintenance, repair, improvement, and enlargement of or dealing with any road constructed by the Road Board, the Board shall have the same powers (except the power of levying a rate) and be subject to the same duties as a county council have and are subject to as respects main roads, and may further exercise any powers vested in a county council for the purposes of the maintenance and repair of bridges. Every road constructed by the Road Board under the provisions of this Act shall be a public highway, and the enactments relating to highways and bridges shall apply to such roads accordingly, and the Road Board shall have the same powers as a county council for the preventing and removing of obstructions:

    Provided that—

  • (a) Communications between a road or path and a road constructed by the Road Board shall be made in manner to be approved by the Road Board; and
  • (b) The Road Board and any highway authority in whose district any part of any such road is situate may contract for the undertaking by such authority of the maintenance and repair of the part of such road in their district; and for the purposes of such undertaking the highway authority shall have the same powers and be subject to the same duties and liabilities as if the road were a road vested in the highway authority.
  • (2) Before the Treasury approve of the construction of a new road by the Road Board they shall consult with the Local Government Board and shall satisfy themselves that notice of the intention to construct the road has been sent by the Road Board to every highway authority in the area of which any part of the proposed road will be situate, and shall consider any objections to the proposed road which they may receive from any such authority.

    Lords Amendment: At the beginning of Sub-section (1), insert "Every road constructed by the Road Board under the provisions of this Part of this Act shall be a public highway, and the enactments relating to highways and bridges shall apply to such roads accordingly, except that the cost of maintenance of every such road shall be borne by the Road Board, and."

    It is well within the recollection of the House, and all those who take an interest in this Bill, that these new roads to be constructed by the Road Board will be made public highways. It was pointed out in the House of Lords, however, that there might be danger that these roads declared to be public highways might have to be maintained by the local authorities, and not by the Road Board. The object of the Amendment is to make it clear that they are to be maintained by the Road Board. We agree with this Amendment in substance, but we desire to amend the Amendment in order to make it clear that not only the cost but the maintenance of these new roads will be placed upon the Road Board, and that the obligation or duty of maintaining the roads shall be upon them also. Therefore I move to leave out the words "the cost and maintenance of" and "borne by" in the Lords Amendment, in order to insert the words "maintainable by and at the cost of." The latter part of the Amendment will then read "except that every such road shall be maintainable by and at the cost of the Road Board."

    Amendments to Lords Amendment (as moved accordingly by Sir Samuel Evans) agreed to.

    Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

    Lords further Amendments: In Subsection (1), leave out "road constructed by the Road Board," and insert instead thereof, "such road."

    Leave out the words "Every road constructed by the Road Board under the provisions of this Act shall be a public highway, and the enactments relating to highways and bridges shall apply to such roads accordingly."

    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendments," put, and agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: Insert at the end of Sub-section (2) the following words "And if. notwithstanding an objection made by a county council within such area, the Treasury consider that the construction of the proposed road should be proceeded with, the approval of the Treasury shall not have effect unless and until, after submission to Parliament by way of Provisional Order, it is confirmed by Parliament."

    I move "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    Ample safeguards are provided by Subsection 3 of Clause 7, which secures that a fair hearing should be given to the county council. This Amendment would make it possible for any county council to compel the Road Board, and would, make it obligatory on the Road Board to come to Parliament, and with all the expense and delay attending it to get a Provisional Order and an Act of Parliament following it before constructing a road. We have safeguarded the county council by giving them a fair hearing, and I think it would be quite unreasonable to allow any county council to object to a new road unless a Provisional Order and an Act of Parliament were obtained authorising it.

    The Solicitor-General says a fair hearing is to be given to the county councils, but there is no obligation on the Road Board to pay the slightest attention to the representations of the county councils. The Road Board will be an independent authority, not amenable to public opinion. If they choose they will be able to override the present highways committees in the county councils with absolute impunity. Furthermore, there are a great many people who have a suspicion that the Road Board may be dominated by the automobile interests. We have not got the names of the members of the Road Board yet, and I hope when we do, that that will not be the case, but there is a widespread fear that the motor interest will be dominant upon the Road Board, and that the Road Board will, in fact, be a motor board looking at the matter from the motor point of view, and not from the general public point of view. I do not want to repeat the objections which I put forward on a former occasion, which I think are very real, of allowing another highway authority to come into the jurisdiction of the present highway authority, and to conflict with them. I think it is only right where the existing authority objects to any new road, either because they think it is unnecessary or that it will interfere with existing roads, that they should have some opportunity of putting their objections before an independent tribunal. That cannot be the Road Board, and as far as I can see it can only be the House of Commons. I think an appeal to this House in a matter so important as this, and where there cannot be any case of extraordinary urgency, a matter of a few weeks or a month would make no difference whatever—is most important and no argument has been adduced against allowing such appeal.

    I think it is a very-strange thing that you should submit so important a body as the county councils to the arbitrament of a body like the Road Board. I could quite understand its being done in the case of smaller authorities, but I am bound to say, speaking as an elected member of one of the largest councils in the country, I feel that we are probably better judges, through our long experience and knowledge of the roads in our districts, than a Board of this kind, which merely comes into the district and listens to representations made to it. I do not think it is sufficient to say that the county councils can be heard; I think they ought to have more power. Throughout this Bill we have complained that these councils, important bodies though they are, are put under the control of the Local Government Board; but this is a far stronger case, because the Local Government Board and the Treasury are represented in Parliament, and we have an opportunity —not a very frequent one, I admit—of criticising their decisions; but in the case of this Board you have nothing of the kind, and therefore it is a far stronger thing to place these councils under a Board of this kind than if you put them under the Local Government Board. For that reason I strongly protest against disagreeing with this Amendment of the Lords, and if the Noble Lord is anxious to go to a Division I should certainly support him.

    The hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General said the county councils would have had the opportunity of presenting their case, but the only body to whom they could address their case, as provided by Clause 9, is the Treasury. We on this side of the House are not so enamoured with the Treasury and Government Departments as to desire that appeals should be made to them. We still linger after the old-fashioned notion that the Houses of Parliament are the proper institutions to govern the country, and that appeals should be made to the Houses of Parliament and not to the Treasury.

    I hope the Government will adhere to their decision to resist this Amendment. I speak as the Member of a borough council, and I fully realise the immense cost many of them have been put to in regard to matters of this kind. To compel them to proceed by Provisional Order would be most costly, and would be bound to lead to a great deal of delay. It is all very well to say that the question of delay of a few weeks or a month would not matter much in regard to the question of making roads, but there is very great delay when you come to the House of Commons for a Provisional Order—sending deputations, paying lawyers, and incurring all other kinds of expenses. The hon. Member (Mr. Peel) represents the largest county council in the country, but his council is here in the City of London, and they may be able to proceed by Provisional Order without any very great increase in expenses.

    May I point out to the hon. Member the Amendment does not compel a council to proceed by Provisional Order; all it does if the council objects to the road being made, then the road cannot be made without a Provisional Order. If they wish to have the road made no Provisional Order is necessary.

    There is no need of such a costly machinery in this matter at all Objections will be very few, and there is no need to enable a council to proceed by Provisional Order.

    The hon. Member who has just sat down, in spite of the lucid explanation given to him by the hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), mistakes the purpose of this Amendment. This Amendment will not put any county council to any expense unless it desires to incur it. The only case in which it will be put to any expense is if the Road Board overrules the opinion of the county council. If the county council desires that the road should be made it can be made without any Provisional Order. Therefore, to say that it puts the county councils to expense is, if the hon. Member will forgive me for saying so, to wholly mistake the Amendment. As to the expenses of Provisional Orders there appears to be complete misapprehension upon the point. For one Provisional Order that is opposed, 20 are unopposed, and in the case of a Provisional Order that goes through unopposed the expenses are quite insignificant. That was the object of the creation of Provisional Orders. What is proposed by this Amendment is that in case this appointed body overrules the county councils the county council shall have the right of an appeal to Parliament. I am surprised that hon. Members below the Gangway do not support this, because I thought they agreed in the general principle of local government. The Govern- ment, of course, entirely dislikes the electoral system, and anything that gives protection to an elected body as against an appointed body naturally receives the opposition of the Government. That we quite understand, but we thought the Labour

    Division No. 917.]

    AYES.

    [6.0 p.m.

    Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)
    Adkins, W. Ryland D.Henderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)Pirie, Duncan V.
    Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R,Henry, Charles S.Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
    Alden, PercyHerbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Herbert, T. Arnold (Wycombe)Price, Sir Robert J. (Norlolk, E.)
    Ashton, Thomas GairHodge, JohnPriestley, Arthur (Grantham)
    Astbury, John MeirHooper, A. G.Radford, G. H.
    Atherley-Jones, L.Horniman, Emslie JohnRainy, A. Rolland
    Baker, Joseph A.Hudson, WalterRea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)
    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)lllingworth, Percy H.Rees, J. D.
    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Isaacs, Rufus DanielRidsdale, E. A.
    Barker, Sir JohnJackson, R. S.Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
    Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)Jardine, Sir J.Roberts. G. H. (Norwich)
    Barnes, G. N.Johnson, John (Gateshead)Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
    Beck, A. CecilJones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
    Berridge, T. H. D.Jones, Leif (Appleby)Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
    Bethell, Sir J. H. (Essex, Romford)Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)Jowett, F. W.Scanlan, Thomas
    Bowerman, C. W.Joyce, MichaelSchwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
    Brigg, Sir JohnKekewlch, Sir GeorgeScott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)
    Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire)King, Alfred John (Knutsford)Sears, J. E.
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnLambert, GeorgeSeaverns, J. H.
    Byles, Willian PollardLamont. NormanShackleton, David James
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Shipman, Dr. John G.
    Cawley, Sir FrederickLayland-Barratt, Sir FrancisSoames, Arthur Weliesley
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Lehmann, R. C.Soares, Ernest J.
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
    Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)Lewis, John HerbertSteadman, W. C.
    Compton-Rickett, Sir J.Lloyd-George, Rt. Hon. DavidStewart, Halley (Greenock)
    Condon, Thomas JosephLough, Rt. Hon. ThomasStewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Lupton, ArnoldStraus, B. S. (Mile End)
    Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)Lynch, H. B.Summerbell, T.
    Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Sutherland, J. E.
    Cory, Sir Clifford JohnMackarness, Frederic C.Taylor, John W. (Durham)
    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Maclean, DonaldTennant, Sir Edward (Salisbury)
    Cowan, W. H.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
    Crosfield, A. H.Macpherson, J. T.Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
    Cross, AlexanderMacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)Thorne, William (West Ham)
    Cullinan, J.MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)Tomkinson, Rt. Hon. James
    Curran, Peter FrancisM'Callum, John M.Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)M'Micking, Major G.Verney, F. W.
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Maddison, FrederickVivian, Henry
    Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)Mallet, Charles E.Walker, H. De R. (Leicester)
    Donelan, Captain A.Marnham, F. J.Walsh, Stephen
    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Massie, J.Walters, John Tudor
    Erskine, David C.Masterman, C. F. G.Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
    Essex, R. W.Meagher, MichaelWason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
    Esslemont, George BirnieMeehan, Francis E. (Leitrlm, N.)Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Evans, Sir S. T.Menzies, Sir WalterWaterlow, D. S.
    Everett, R. LaceyMorgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)Watt, Henry A.
    Falconer, JamesMorse, L. LWhite, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)
    Ferens, T. R.Morton, Alpheus CleophasWhitehead, Rowland
    Fuller, John Michael F.Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard)Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
    Gibb, James (Harrow)Murray, James (Aberdeen, E.)Wilkie, Alexander
    Gibson, J. P.Myer, HoratioWilliamson, Sir A.
    Gladstone. Rt. Hon. Herbert JohnNolan, JosephWilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
    Glover, ThomasNussey, Sir WillansWilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
    Greenwood. G. (Peterborough)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Gulland, John W.O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Wood. T. M'Kinnon
    Hancock, J. G.O'Grady, J.Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)Parker, James (Halifax)
    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester)Paul, Herbert

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.

    Hart-Davles, T.Pearce, William (LImehouse)
    Hedges, A. Paget

    NOES.

    Balcarres, LordBignold, Sir ArthurChanning, Sir Francis Allston
    Baldwin, StanleyBowles, G. StewartCheetham, John Frederick
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeCarlile, E. HildredClark, George Smith
    Banner, John S. HarmoodCave, GeorgeCochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

    Members did pride themselves upon their democracy. I am afraid we have been mistaken. This is absolutely a democratic Amendment put in by the guardians of the democratic liberties of this country, the House of Lords.

    The House divided: Ayes, 188; Noes, 42.

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Kerry, Earl ofRutherford, John (Lancashire)
    Craik, Sir HenryKimber, Sir HenryRutherford, Watson (Liverpool)
    Douglas, Rt. Hon, A. AkersKing, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
    Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)
    Faber, George Dcnison (York)Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dublin, S.)Thornton, Percy M.
    Fletcher, J. S.Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. AlfredValentla, Viscount
    Gardner, ErnestMorpeth, ViscountWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
    Guinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edmunos)Percy, EarlYounger, George
    Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Remnant. James Farquharson
    Hay, Hon. Claude GeorgeRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Robert Cecil and Mr. Peel.

    Heaton. John HennikerRonaldshay, Earl of

    Clause 10—(Provisions As To Construction Of New Roads By Highway Authorities)

    (1) Where the Road Board make an advance to a highway authority in respect of the construction of a new road the Board may authorise the authority to construct the road, and where so authorised the highway authority shall have power to construct the road and to do all such acts as may be necessary for the purpose, and any expenses of the authority, so far as not defrayed out of the advance, shall be defrayed as expenses incurred by the authority in exercise of their powers as highway authority, and the enactments relating to such expenses, including the borrowing provisions, shall apply accordingly.

    (2) Where the highway authority to whom the advance is made are a county council the new road, when constructed, shall be a main road and in any other case shall be a highway repairable by the inhabitants at large:

    Provided that the maintenance of any such road within the administrative county of London shall devolve upon the local authority responsible for the maintenance of streets and roads in whose district the same is situate.

    Lords Amendment agreed to: In Subsection (1), leave out the words "borrowing provisions" ["including the borrowing provisions"], and insert instead thereof the words "provisions as to borrowing."

    Clause 11—(Acquisition Of Land)

    (1) Where the Road Board propose to construct a new road under this Part of this Act the Board may acquire land for the purpose, and may, in addition, acquire land on either side of the proposed road within two hundred and twenty yards from the middle of the proposed road.

    (2) The Road Board may acquire, erect, and furnish such offices and other buildings as they may require, and may acquire land for the purpose.

    (3) Where a highway authority are authorised to construct a new road under this Part of this Act, or an advance is made to such an authority in respect of the improvement of an existing road, the authority may acquire land for the purpose of such construction or improvement.

    (4) For the purpose of the purchase of land by agreement under this Part of this Act, by the Road Board or a highway authority the Lands Clauses Acts shall be incorporated with this Part of this Act, except the provisions of those Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement, and Section 178 of the Public Health Act, 1875, shall apply as if the Road Board and the highway authority were referred to therein.

    (5) Where the Road Board or any highway authority are unable to acquire by agreement on reasonable terms any land which they consider necessary, they may apply to the Development Commissioners for an order empowering them to acquire the land compulsorily in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule to this Act: Provided that the provisions of Part I. of this Act, prohibiting the compulsory acquisition of the classes of land mentioned in Sub-section (3) of Section 5 of this Act shall apply to the acquisition by the Road Board of land on either side of a road proposed to be constructed by the Board.

    (6) The Road Board shall have full power, with the approval of the Treasury, to sell, lease, and manage any land acquired by them under this Part of this Act and not required for the new road, and any receipts derived from any such land, so far as they are applied for the purposes of the construction of new roads, shall not be treated as part of the expenditure of the Road Board on new roads for the purpose of the provisions of this Act limiting the amount of expenditure of the Road Board on new roads.

    Lords Amendments agreed to: In Subjection (1), after the word "the" ["(1) Where the Road Board propose"], insert the words "Treasury have approved a proposal by the," and leave out the word "propose."

    moved to disagree with the Lords Amendment in Sub-section (1) to leave out the words "and may in addition acquire land on either side of the proposed road within two hundred and twenty yards from the middle of the proposed road."

    This Amendment leaves out the provision which enables the road authority to acquire the land on each side of the new road. The other House has left out these words, and there are other Amendments on the Paper intended to secure to the public some part of the increase of value which accrues to the land by reason of the construction of the new road. The question for the House now, putting it shortly, is, Which system do hon. Members prefer, the plan of the Government or the plan now suggested by the elaborate provisions in this and subsequent Amendments? Does this House prefer the original plan of the Government, under which a certain portion of the land each side the new road would be secured to the public? I do not want to argue the matter, because it has already been argued at considerable length. The Government are not persuaded that the alternative plan is the better one, and we are going to ask this House to adhere to the original plan. I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    I do not think it is worth while to consume a great deal of time in regard to this matter. I may point out, however, that the proposal of the Government makes no provision whatever in the case of a local authority constructing a new road under this Bill. They are not to have any means of getting back a portion of the expense or any part of the profit which arises from the new road. It is only in the case of a Road Board constructing a new road that this provision operates. That appears to me to be utterly unreasonable, and it is a proposal which has never had the slightest defence from the Government, and I do not know what the defence is. I do not disagree with the view that if you are constructing a street through a town there is a good deal to be said for buying the land on each side for the purpose of recoupment. But that is not the kind of procedure the Road Board will adopt. They are not going to make new roads and streets in towns, because that must necessarily be left to the borough council or the county council. I think it would be most injudicious on the part of the Road Board to interfere in a case of that kind, nor has it been suggested that that is the kind of case to be dealt with.

    I should have thought the oases dealt with would have been almost exclusively country cases. In such cases the power to buy the land on each side will be absolutely valueless for the purpose the Government have in view, because it does not follow that the land on each side of the road will be improved in value in the case of a country road. The probability is that it will not be that land which gets the greater part of the improvement, but it will be the whole of the countryside. It may be an estate or a farm lying back from the road. The House of Lords proposal is that it shall be left to the arbitrators to say who has benefited, and to what extent, and then you are to make those who have benefited contribute a fair share to the local authority in all cases, whether it is a road constructed by a local authority or a Road Board. I am content, as far as I am concerned, to leave that question to the judgment of any impartial body in the country to decide as to which is the best and most businesslike proposal. I have not the slightest doubt that any impartial body would say that the proposal made by the House of Lords is by far the most businesslike proposition of the two, and one which is likely to be of the most advantage to the public authority and likely to work with the least friction and disagreement on the part of those affected. I very much regret that the Government have decided not to accept this Amendment, and I believe their decision is not dictated by an unbiassed judgment as to which is the better of the two proposals. The Government have the House of Lords on the brain now, and they dare not accept any proposal made by the House of Lords for fear of a revolt on the Radical or Labour Benches. I am sure that if the Government were dealing with these two proposals without any prejudice the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be the first to recognise that this Amendment is a most reasonable proposal, and more reasonable than the provision contained in the Bill.

    I can assure the Noble Lord that the decision of the Government has nothing whatever to do with that question. This proposal has been considered on its merits, and we have actually gone out of our way to accept some other Amendments proposed by the Lords with a view to getting the Bill through. We regard this proposal in the Bill as quite fundamental. What is the alternative of the House of Lords? It is that there shall be some sort of a complicated betterment proposal. I am not going to say whether betterment has been a success in London or not. The hon. Baronet opposite (Sir F. Banbury) will probably say it has not been a success, and there are a good many hon. Members who have had just as much experience as the hon. Baronet on our side who agree with him. I do not want to express any opinion upon that point, but I may say, at any rate, that it is a very costly business, and one thing I am sure about is that the local authority does not get the full benefit which it was hoped they would derive from such proposals. What is our alternative? Instead of forcing, not merely the new road authority, but also all the owners into a sort of position of litigants in respect of every bit of land in order to assess the amount of benefit derived from the road, you have the much simpler proposition of buying the land where the road authority thinks there is betterment. There was sent to me the other day a great scheme of this kind in America, and it is an exactly identical proposal. It was to buy tracts of land on either side. It is a much simpler way of keeping the betterment. You pay the owner the full value of the land as it stands at the present moment, and, if there is any improvement, it is inured to the people. I think that is a very fair proposition. If you construct a road of this kind between two towns, say 20 or 30 miles in length, you are opening up a tract of country almost as a suburb of those towns, and you may create very considerable added values, and I think it is perfectly fair, when the Board goes in for an expenditure of money for the purpose of constructing a road such as that, that they should take into account, exactly as a company or a syndicate formed for the same purpose would, all possible sources of benefit and profit which might inure from their expenditure and enable them to pay interest on that expenditure. Where is the injustice? It is not an injustice to the owner, because he is paid full value for his land. Is it an injustice to the road authority? On the contrary, I think it is the only way in which they will get full justice. The only people who will suffer will be the lawyers. Instead of having about a thousand cases of betterment fought out before juries—

    Certainly. Every individual owner will be liable under this to a charge for betterment. I know there is arbitration, but those are rather expensive proceedings. Every owner has been fighting the London County Council, and you will have to bring a claim against every owner, and each claim will be contested. This is a provision for endowing lawyers, but is not a provision for putting the money into the pockets of the road authority or for benefiting even adjoining land-owners. I venture to say the Government proposition is a simpler and an infinitely better one from a purely business point of view. It is that the road authority should consider the whole land and say, "Here is land which will, we think, have a special value created for it, merely because we are opening up the land, and therefore we shall buy it at its present value." If that is done, justice will be done all round, and it will be a benefit, not only to the road authority, but also to the landowners themselves. It will be a source of profit to the road authority, and will enable them to go on extending their schemes.

    I confess I do not like either scheme very much. I agree with much that the Chancellor has said as to the extraordinary difficulty of dealing with these questions and of assessing the proper amount in each case. The question of recoupment also presents great difficulty. Those who sit on local authorities will know that it is very often very difficult to realise this recoupment. I know important cases where a loss has been realised rather than recoupment from buying more land than you want. The Chancellor seemed to speak of roads being made round towns, and in those cases a certain amount of recoupment might be produced, but, so far as the country is concerned, I do not think you will get any recoupment. Was not the Chancellor rather thinking of roads under the old system where you have ordinary horse traffic? I think there probably you would have a considerable increase in the value of land in the immediate neighbourhood of the road, but as these roads are mainly for the purpose of motor traffic, I do not think you will get the same recoupment in the immediate vicinity of the roads as under the old system. I should quite agree with the Chancellor supposing this road authority were able to take land which has improved in consequence of a particular road, but that is not so, because this question of recoupment is confined to land within 220 yards of the road, and there you will only get depreciation and not recoupment. There is another and rather wider point in consequence of which I dislike this method of dealing with land. It is an entirely different business from the making of roads. The making and managing of roads is one thing and the taking of land, dealing in land, and developing land, is a totally different thing; and, if you are going to establish a Road Board doing these two things, you want totally different sets of Commissioners to carry them out. It is a great mistake, in my opinion, to jumble these two things together in the laudable effort to try and get some benefit out of the recoupment. You are going to impose two separate and distinct sets of duties on the same set of men.

    So far as I understand the speeches of the Noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) and of the hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Peel), they are altogether in favour of the Bill. If their speeches have any application at all, they would amend the Bill by making it a mile or two miles instead of 220 yards. I understood the Noble Lord to say there was a good deal to be said for the principle of betterment in towns. Most of us will agree with the proposition, and, if the Noble Lord will bring in an Amendment to this Bill or any other Bill giving effect to that principle, I can assure him he will have our whole-hearted support. He said, however, that this was not a question of betterment in towns. The Road Board would not operate in towns, but only in the country. That is a very good reason for retaining the Bill in its present form. If a local authority were making streets in towns and added value accrued to the land adjacent to the streets by virtue of the expenditure of the town authority, then I could well understand that the betterment should go to the town, but in this case the added value accruing to the land in the country adjacent to the roads will arise directly from the expenditure of the Road Board, and not from the expenditure of any local authority. That being so, it seems to me the added value ought to belong to the body incurring the expenditure. That is the reason why I am in favour of the Bill as it stands, and, if there is anything in the argument that 220 yards are not sufficient, or that it is rather an arbitrary figure, or that added value might accrue to one side of the road more than to another, I should be quite willing to support any Amendment giving effect to the principle that the Road Board should somehow or other participate in that added value, but I am willing to take 220 yards to go on with.

    The desire of the hon. Member who has just sat down is that where a road is made by the Road Board, and the land adjacent is increased in value in consequence, that increase in value shall go to the Road Board. One may admit that in dealing with this Amendment, and the whole question is which of these two machineries, the machinery of the Bill or the machinery proposed by the House of Lords, is most likely in practical working to achieve that result. The machinery of the Bill is quite simple. The Bill says to the Road Board, "When you are going to make a road you shall have power to acquire, in addition to the land you want for the road, the land on either side of the proposed road within 220 yards of the middle." The Road Board will have to look along this road and will have to choose, if it exercises this power, the bits of land it is going to buy. They will have to say, "This bit here and that bit there is likely to increase in value, and we will choose them and buy them." That is what will happen, and that is what the Government intends should happen. The only increased value which will ever accrue to the Road Board will be such increased value in those particular bits of land which they have chosen; and it is very likely they may choose the wrong bits—bits which increase to some extent, but not half as much as other bits. They may choose wrong strips from their own point of view, but they will be saddled with them, and will have to administer them as part of their estate. What is the alternative proposal? It is perfectly simple. It is that, where through the construction of a road the value of any bit of land, wherever it is—whether it is the strip they have chosen or otherwise—is increased the Road Board shall have the power to come in and take part in the increased value. It applies equally to the local authorities. If you want apples you must go to the orchard where the apples are, and if you want the road authority to benefit by the increased value you must go where you can find the increased value and not limit it to the strips of land they may choose. I am totally unable to understand on what earthly ground, except the ground of pure misunderstanding, any man who wants the increased value due to the making of the roads to go to the Road Board, or to the local authorities, in the greatest measure possible can support the Government in the measures they are taking. The machinery proposed by the House of Lords is much the most likely to give to the Road Board or the local authority a large slice of the increased value of the land. Under the proposal of the Government the whole thing is confined from beginning to end. It depends upon chance, and it seems to me very dangerous that the Road Board or the local authority, as the case may be, may not choose the best strips of land. From the point of view of the road authority, as well as from the point of view of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, I cannot imagine how anyone can vote for the machinery of the Government as against the much more certain and more fruitful machinery proposed by the House of Lords.

    The remarks of the hon. Member are certainly interesting. He seems to think that because this is a proposal to recover public expenditure from the owner of land we ought to support it. We are very pleased to hear hon. Members above the Gangway speaking in this strain, and I hope they will bear their present remarks in mind when we come to talk about increments, for if what they urge applies in one case it should apply equally in the other. I would like to point out how difficult it is to settle these questions satisfactorily. Take the case of the erosion of foreshores and the necessary

    Division No. 918.]

    AYES.

    [6.35 p.m.

    Adkins, W. Ryland D.Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)
    Alden, PercyCorbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)Gulland, John W.
    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Hancock, J. G.
    Ashton, Thomas GairCory, Sir Clifford JohnHnrcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)
    Ashbury, John MeirCotton, Sir H. J. S.Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester)
    Atherley-Jones, L.Cowan, W. H.Hart-Davies, T.
    Baker, Joseph A.Crosfield, A. H.Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Cross, AlexanderHedges, A. Paget
    Baring, Godfrey (Isle of Wight)Curran, Peter FrancisHenderson, Arthur (Durham)
    Barker, Sir JohnDalziel, Sir James HenryHenderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)
    Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)Davies, Timothy (Fulham)Henry, Charles S.
    Barnes, G. N.Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)
    Berridge, T. H. D.Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)Hodge, John
    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesHooper, A. G.
    Bowerman, C. W.Dillon, JohnHurniman, Emslie John
    Brigg, Sir JohnDonelan, Captain A.Hudson, Walter
    Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire)Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Hyde, Clarendon G.
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnErskine, David C.Idris, T. H. W.
    Byles, William PollardEssex, R. W.Isaacs, Rufus Daniel
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Esslemont, George BirnieJackson, R. S.
    Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard KnightEvans, Sir S. T.Johnson, John (Gateshead)
    Cawley, Sir FrederickEverett, R. LaceyJones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)
    Cheetham, John FrederickFalconer, J.Jones, Leif (Appleby)
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Ferens, T. R.Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Fuller, John Michael F.Joyce, Michael
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Gibson, J. P.King, Alfred John (Knutsford)
    Collins, Sir Wm. J. (St. Pancras, W.)Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert JohnLambert, George
    Compton-Rickett, Sir J.Glover, ThomasLamont, Norman

    protection against the washing away of the land. Great conflict of opinion arises in regard to that, for it is urged that the people on the coast ought not to pay for the protection of those inland. I venture to say the same thing will occur here. It would be much better to start away and take a slice of land on each side of the highway. If there is going to be any betterment, then the road authority will receive it, instead of its being left to chance, as it would be under the Amendments suggested in the House of Lords. I hope that the Government will stick to their original proposition.

    The suggestion of the House of Lords is that the Road Board or the highway authority shall be entitled to recover from any person whose property is enhanced in value such proportion of the expenditure of the Road Board as in the opinion of the arbitrator such person should pay. But I would point out it is quite inconceivable that the Road Board should make a road such as is contemplated without taking land compulsorily. Under the provisions of the Bill they have to apply to the Development Commissioners for an order to take land compulsorily, and, of course, they would have to make out a case for doing so, otherwise it will not be authorised. I think the plan of the Government is preferable to that of the House of Lords.

    Question put, "That the House do disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    The House divided: Ayes, 178; Noes, 39.

    Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)O'Grady, J.Summerbell, T.
    Layland-Barratt, Sir FrancisParker, James (Halifax)Sutherland, J. E.
    Lehmann, R. C.Paul, HerbertTaylor, John W. (Durham)
    Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)Pearce, William (Limehouse)Tennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
    Lewis, John HerbertPearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
    Lough, Rt. Hon. ThomasPirie, Duncan V.Thorne, William (West Ham)
    Lynch, H. B.Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.Tomkinson, Rt. Hon. James
    Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
    Mackarness, Frederic C.Price, Sir Hobert J. (Norfolk, E.)Verney, F. W.
    Maclean, DonaldRainy, A. RollandVivian, Henry
    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)Walker, H. D. R. (Leicester)
    Macpherson, J. T.Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)Walsh, Stephen
    MacVeagh, Jeremiah (Down, S.)Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)Walters, John Tudor
    MacVeigh, Charles (Donegal, E.)Ridsdale, E. A.Walton, Joseph
    M'Callum, John M.Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
    M'Micking, Major G.Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
    Maddison, FrederickRobson, Sir William SnowdonWason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Mallet, Charles E.Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)Waterlow, D. S.
    Markham, Arthur BasilRutherford, V. H. (Brentford)Watt, Henry A.
    Massie, J.Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)
    Masterman, C. F. G.Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)Whitehead, Rowland
    Meagher, MichaelScott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)Wiles, Thomas
    Menzies, Sir WalterSeaverns, J. H.Wilkie, Alexander
    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)Shackleton, David JamesWilliamson, Sir A.
    Morrell, PhilipShipman, Dr. John G.Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
    Morse, L. L.Soames, Arthur WellesleyWilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
    Morton, Alpheus CleophasSoares, Ernest J.Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. (Kincard.)Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)Wood, T. M'Kinnon
    Nolan, JosephSteadman, W. C.Yoxall, Sir James Henry
    Nussey, Sir WillansStewart, Halley (Greenock)
    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)

    TELLERS FOR THE AXES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.

    O'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Straus, B. S. (Mile End)
    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    NOES.

    Balcarres, LordFletcher, J. S.Percy, Earl
    Baldwin, StanleyGardner, ErnestRemnant, James Farquharson
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeGibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Banner, John S. Harmood-Goulding, Edward AlfredRonaldshay, Earl of
    Bignold, Sir ArthurGuinness, Hon. W. E. (B. S. Edmunds)Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool)
    Carlile, E. HildredHarrison-Broadley, H. B.Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
    Cave, GeorgeHay, Hon. Claude GeorgeTalbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.>
    Cecil, Lord R. (Marylebone, E.)Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.Thornton, Percy M.
    Channing, Sir Francis AllstonKerry, Earl ofValentia, Viscount
    Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.King, Sir Henry Seymour (Hull)Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)Younger, George
    Craik, Sir HenryLonsdale, John Brownlee
    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A, Akers-Morpeth, Viscount

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir S. Scott and Mr. S. Bowles.

    Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)Peel, Hon. W. R. W.

    Lords Amendment: To leave out the proviso at the end of Sub-section (5) and insert ("and the Commissioners shall have power to make such an order"), and also to insert the following new Sub-sections—

    "(6) No land shall be authorised by an order under this Section to be acquired compulsorily which at the date of the order has been acquired by any corporation or company for the purposes of a railway, dock, canal, water, or other public undertaking, but such an order may contain power to acquire compulsorily an easement over such land for the purpose of carrying any new road over or under the same, and shall in that case contain all such provisions as the Development Commissioners may deem necessary for the protection of the owners of such land and the prospective development thereof for the purposes of any such undertaking and for securing the safety of the public using the same and the free and uninterrupted passage of traffic thereover.

    (7) Where, by the approval by the Treasury, of the construction of a new road under this Part of this Act, any property is increased in value, the Road Board or the highway authority, in cases where a highway authority are authorised to construct a new road under this Part of this Act, if the Board or the highway authority, as the case may be, make a claim for the purpose within three months of the approval by the Treasury of the construction of the road, or of an order made by the Development Commissioners authorising the acquisition of land for the purpose of the road, whichever be the later, shall be entitled to recover from any person whose property is so increased in value, such proportion of the expenditure of the Road Board or the highway authority, as the case may be, as failing agreement, in the opinion of an arbitrator, such person should pay having regard to the improvement in the value of such property.

    (8) Any disputed question as to whether any property is increased in value within the meaning of this Section or as to the amount and manner of payment (whether by instalments or otherwise) of the sum which the Road Board or the highway authority is entitled to recover, shall be determined by arbitration under this Act in accordance with the Schedule to this Act."

    I am prepared to accept the first words of the Lords Amendment—that is to say to insert the words "and the Commissioners shall have power to make such an order."

    I understand the Solicitor-General does not agree to leave out to the end of the Sub-section?

    The proper way is for the Solicitor-General to move to disagree with the Amendment, and then to move to insert such words as he desires.

    moved, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    The words I propose to move to insert come, in later, but the Lords Amendment really consists, apart from the first line, of two or three new Sub-sections, which are really covered by the decision on the last Motion. I mean they are the alternative plan of the other House to obtain some proportion of the increase in the value of the land towards the expenditure. Then they propose that there should be no power at all to acquire any land which belongs to a railway, dock, or other undertaking established for a public purpose, for the construction of a road. Those who are interested in this Bill will remember that we protected in the fullest degree the property of railway, dock, and other similar companies here described, and rendered it impossible for any such property to be taken under the first part of the Bill by the Development Commissioners, because it might mean taking practically the whole, but the last portion of the Bill stands in a totally different position, as the authority are only empowered to acquire land for the purpose of making roads. The proposal in the other case is this, instead of giving the authority in no case the power to acquire a part of this land, we say that they would be able to acquire such a part as would enable them to make a road. They therefore become the authority entitled to that road, and they are in the same position as the highway authority is at present. You cannot say that the powers of the highway authority or of the public over the road is an easement; it is something more; it must go into the soil, although the depth depends upon the circumstances. I do not think it would be right therefore under those circumstances to give an easement merely, and I must say that I think it is reasonable to authorise the Road Boards to acquire land belonging to such companies as these.

    Of course, if it interfered with the working of those companies at all no member of a Road Board would dream of seeking to acquire land compulsorily under this Bill when it becomes law, but everybody knows the undertakings which are proprietors of land in the position of railway, dock, and other similar cases acquire land in the first instance which goes very far beyond the immediate requirements of the commercial undertaking itself, and there might be no objection whatever on the part of the dock or railway company to the Board taking a strip of their property for the purpose of constructing a road, and it may even be for their convenience. It is therefore necessary to give the Road Board the power in their discretion to acquire compulsorily land for their purposes. That being so, I think I have shown two things, first of all that an easement would not be enough, because if you inserted that you would be practically excluding the Road Board entirely from the land in the possession of such companies here spoken of, and I think I have shown in the second place that it may be quite reasonable, and, indeed, it may be in the interests of the public companies themselves that somewhere or other on a corner of their undertaking which is not very much used there should be within the confines of their property a road, and that therefore there should be a power of compulsorily acquiring the land for roads.

    The observations of the hon. and learned Member would be entitled to much weight if they were not directly in the face of the most recent decisions. The taking of lands appropriated for railways and other like purposes by Parliament in past years was prevented in the case, I think, of the Port of London Bill, the Small Holdings Bill, and of the Town Planning Bill likewise.

    But I am going to argue that after all a road is only one other form of public undertaking, and the requirements of a road in the shape of land are just of the same kind, and I do not agree that the hon. and learned Gentleman is right as to whether an easement suffices or not. Where a road crosses a railway either over or under it it does not acquire the soil of the railway and its purposes are satisfied by mere acquisition of an easement to go over or under the railway, and I cannot see any reason why more should be given in this case. I do not think it necessary, perhaps, to take the high ground which might be taken, that this land has been already appropriated for this particular purpose by Parliament, and that no other or lesser authority should divert it from that purpose to which it has been appropriated, but I suppose it is too late in these days to appeal to principles so high as that, because for some mysterious reason the authority of this House appears to be of very little account for some purposes and of very great account for others. This is put on the ground also that there are what are called surplus lands which might be taken, but after all no one but the railway company or the dock company itself can know whether it is likely to require those lands in the future, and it must have satisfied Parliament in the past at a date when the requirement of them for the purposes of their undertaking must have been much more remote and much less likely than it is now; and surely it is not right that a semi-executive, nobody quite knows what it is, but a hybrid judicial body, should have the power of unsaying in the present what Parliament has said with much solemnity after having heard all the experts and parties in the past. We cannot agree with the Motion to disagree with this Lords Amendment, and I think their requirements are the very minimum which the justice of the case requires.

    I cannot help thinking that the Government have not quite dealt with the difficulty here, although I do not disagree with all that the Solicitor-General said. They have not dealt with the difficulty of one of those roads crossing a railroad. I do not think it is reasonable even to give power to acquire the land of the railway, and I do not think any Commissioners would be so foolish as to put in force such a power. Railway companies have been exceedingly jealous, and justly so, of any interference with their statutory rights, and as the Solicitor-General knows, no body ever proposes to take land belonging to a railway company in a private Bill. No committee would ever tolerate it, but, on the other hand, it may be desirable to take an easement over their railway for the purpose of a level crossing. That would be a true easement, which would not involve the acquisition of the soil, and I do not see, although it may be as a matter of fact included in the general words, that there is any power to take such an easement. I confess I think the Government have acted hastily in rejecting this Amendment of the Lords, which seems to me to err, if it errs at all, in the direction of not giving so much protection to the owners of property as I should have suggested. As a matter of fact, if this Amendment were accepted, you may have all sorts of things excluded by the Government proposal; therefore I do not think that we have to deal with a rigid proposition, but I do think most strongly that it is not fight to give power to make roads over a railway or waterworks or anything else which has got statutory powers, and that is what the Government are going to do unless they accept some such Amendment as this.

    This is the more surprising because in the earlier part of their Bill, the development part, which deals, amongst other things, with the making of light railways, no such power exists. You cannot take a light railway over another railway at all. You cannot acquire land belonging to any of these statutory undertakings for the purposes of this light railway at all, but you can for the purpose of a road. I do not know upon what ground the Government are proceeding. I do not think, unless the Commissioners grossly exceed their powers, they are likely to listen to a proposal to acquire a right to that land. We desire to see absolute protection for these companies against the compulsory acquisition of land, and I think that position is a sound one and ought to be adhered to in this House, and that where statutory powers have been given to a body to acquire land, then you ought not—by Commissioners or any other of the curious devices that people are so fond of now creating—give power to take that land away from those who have been given by Parliament a right to it. That seems to me to be a sound principle which ought to be adhered to. Personally I think this Amendment of the Lords is a very moderate assertion of it, and I doubt whether it goes far enough.

    Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    Division No. 919.]

    AYES.

    [7.0 p.m.

    Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.)Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
    Adkins, W. Ryland D.Hedges, A. PagetPrice, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
    Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Rainy, A. Rolland
    Ashton, Thomas GairHenderson, J. McD. (Aberdeen, W.)Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Gloucester)
    Astbury, John MeirHenry, Charles S.Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
    Baker, Joseph A.Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)Richards, T. F. (Wolverhampton, W.)
    Balfour, Robert (Lanark)Hobart, Sir RobertRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
    Barker, Sir JohnHodge, JohnRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)
    Barlow, Sir John E. (Somerset)Horniman, Emslie JohnRobertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
    Barnes, G. N.Hudson, WalterRobson, Sir William Snowdon
    Berridge, T. H. D.Hyde, Clarendon G.Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
    Bethell, T. R. (Essex, Maldon)Idris, T. H. W.Rutherford, V. H. (Brentford)
    Bowerman, C. W.Isaacs, Rufus DanielScanlan, Thomas
    Brigg, Sir JohnJackson, R. S.Schwann, Sir C. E. (Manchester)
    Brunner, Rt. Hon. Sir J. T. (Cheshire)Jardine, Sir J.Scott, A. H. (Ashton-under-Lyne)
    Burke, E. Haviland-Johnson, John (Gateshead)Seaverns, J. H.
    Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnJones, Leif (Appleby)Shackleton, David James
    Byles, William PollardJones, William (Carnarvonshire)Shipman. Dr. John G.
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Jowett, F. W.Soares, Ernest J.
    Causton, Rt. Hon. Richard KnightJoyce, MichaelStanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)
    Cawley, Sir FrederickKing, Alfred John (Knutsford)Stanley, Hon. A. Lyulph (Cheshire)
    Channing, Sir Francis Allstonlambert, GeorgeSteadman, W. C.
    Cheetham, John FrederickLamont, NormanStewart, Halley (Greenock)
    Cherry, Rt. Hon. R. R.Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)Stewart-Smith, D. (Kendal)
    Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Leyland-Barratt, Sir FrancisSummerbell, T.
    Collins, Sir Win. J. (St. Pancras, W.)Lehmann, R. C.Sutherland, J. E.
    Compton-Rickett, Sir J.Lever, A. Levy (Essex, Harwich)Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)
    Cordon, Thomas JosephLewis, John HerbertTaylor, John W. (Durham)
    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)Lough, Rt. Hon. ThomasTennant, H. J. (Berwickshire)
    Corbett, C. H. (Sussex, E. Grinstead)Lynch, H. B.Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)
    Cory, Sir Clifford JohnMacdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Thorne, William (West Ham)
    Cotton, Sir H. J. S.Mackarness, Frederic C.Tomkinson, Rt. Hon. James
    Cowan, W. H.Maclean, DonaldUre, Rt. Hon. Alexander
    Crosfield, A. H.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Verney, F. W.
    Cross, AlexanderMacpherson, J. T.Vivian, Henry
    Dalziel, Sir James HenryMacVelgh, Charles (Donegal, E.)Walker, H. D. R. (Leicester)
    Davies, Timothy (Fulham)M'Callum, John M.Walsh, Stephen
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.M'Micking, Major G.Walters, John Tudor
    Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)Maddison, FrederickWalton, Joseph
    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir CharlesMallet, Charles E.Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
    Dillon, JohnMarkham, Arthur BasilWason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
    Donelan, Captain A.Massie, J.Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
    Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Masterman, C. F. GWaterlow, D. S.
    Erskine, David C.Menzies, Sir WalterWatt, Henry A.
    Essex, R. W.Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)White, J. Dundas (Dumbartonshire)
    Esslemont, George BirnieMorrell, PhilipWhitehead, Rowland
    Evans, Sir S. T.Morse, L. L.Wiles, Thomas
    Everett, R. LaceyMorton, Alpheus CleophasWilkie, Alexander
    Falconer, J.Myer, HoratioWilliams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
    Ferens, T. R.Nolan, JosephWilliamson, Sir A.
    Fuller, John Michael F.Nussey, Sir WillansWilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
    Gibson, J. P.O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
    Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert JohnO'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
    Glover, ThomasO'Donnell, C. J. (Walworth)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Greenwood, G. (Peterborough)Parker, James (Halifax)Wood, T. M'Kinnon
    Gulland, John W.Paul, HerbertYoxall, Sir James Henry
    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.Pearce, willliam (Limehouse)
    Hancock, J. G.Pearson, W. H. M. (Suffolk, Eye)
    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)Pirie, Duncan V.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Joseph Pease and Captain Norton.

    Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Worcester)Pollard, Sir George
    Hart-Davies, T.Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

    NOES.

    Balcarres, LordFletcher, J. S.Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool)
    Baldwin, StanleyGardner, ErnestScott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
    Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeGibbs, G. A. (Bristol, West)Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
    Banner, John S Harwood-Hay, Hon. Claude GeorgeTalbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxford Univ.)
    Bignold, Sir ArthurKennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.Thornton, Percy M.
    Bowles, G. StewartKerry, Earl ofValentia, Viscount
    Castlereagh, ViscountLonsdale, John BrownleeWortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
    Cave, GeorgePeel, Hon. W. R. W.Younger, George
    Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.Percy, Earl
    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Robert Cecil and Mr. Carlile.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Ronaldshay, Earl of
    Duncan, Robert (Lanark, Govan)Rutherford, John (Lancashire)

    The House divided: Ayes, 178; Noes, 32.

    Clause 12—(Expenses And Receipts Of Road Board)

    (1) All expenses of the Road Board under this Part of this Act, including the salary of the chairman or vice-chairman and the salaries and the remuneration of officers and servants, to such amount as may be sanctioned by the Treasury, shall be defrayed out of the road improvement grant.

    Lords Amendment: At the end of Subsection (1), insert, "The Treasury shall cause an account to be prepared and transmitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General for examination, showing the receipts into and issues out of the road improvement grant in the financial year ending the thirty-first day of March preceding, and the Comptroller and Auditor-General shall certify and report upon the same, and such account and report shall be laid before Parliament by the Treasury."

    Lords Amendment agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: Leave out Clause 16 and insert:—

    Clause A—(Application To Scotland)

    "This Part of this Act shall apply to Scotland, subject to the following modifications—

    The expression 'highway authority' means a county council or a town council, and the expressions 'road' and 'main road' mean any road or street maintainable at the cost of a highway authority. References to a county council and to the powers and duties thereof shall as regards then-respective areas be deemed to include references to a county road board and a district committee of a county council and to a town council and to their respective powers and duties.

    The reference to a highway maintainable by the inhabitants at large shall not apply.

    The expression 'Local Government Board' means the Secretary for Scotland.

    Lords Amendment agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: Leave out Clause 18 and insert:—

    Clause B—(Obligation To Consider The State And Prospects Of Employment)

    "In arranging the time for the execution of any work which has already been approved under this Act, and which involves the employment of labour on a considerable scale, regard shall be had, so far as is reasonably practicable, to the general state and prospects of employment."

    I think this Amendment alters the conditions under which advances may be made, and I must rule that it is a privileged Amendment.

    moved. "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

    For reasons which I have explained, I do not attach the slightest importance to the question of privilege objection, which seems to be an utterly silly objection for this House at this time of day to take. If it is a good Amendment we ought to adopt it, and if it is bad we ought to reject it. The silly doctrine of privilege is worthy of the days of the Stuarts As to this particular Amendment, whether it is privileged or not, I very much prefer the Clause the House of Lords has put in. The object of Clause 18 was to secure a very proper object, that largo works under this Bill should be executed at a time and under conditions which as far as possible, should meet the fluctuations of employment. I suppose everyone desires that, and has always thought that is the most healthy way of dealing with the unemployment question. The great thing is that when you have large works to carry out you should, as far as possible, reserve them till a time of slack employment and not push them forward in times of full employment. But the Clause would not have had that effect, or anything like it. It deals only with approving or making advances, and says nothing whatever about carrying out the work which is the important thing. They may approve of the work in November because they think employment is likely to be slack, but the work may not be carried out till the following May, when employment is at its height. I should have been satisfied with an Amendment which left the word "executing" in and left out the words "approving and making advances," but the Lords have done it on a rather* more comprehensive Amendment, but it really is the same thing as though they struck out every word but "executed." They say that the time of arranging for the execution of the work is the occasion on which you ought to have regard to the conditions of unemployment. I very much regret that the Government do not see their way to adopting this. If their only reason is that it is a matter of privilege, it is deplorable that they should be stopped by these antiquated doctrines in dealing with a question of this importance. Certainly the Clause, as it stands at present in the Bill, is wrong in principle, it will not carry out the object which we all have in view, and, if the Government still feel that their dignity would be hurt by accepting the suggestion of the House of Lords, let them, after they have disagreed with the Amendment, propose an Amendment of their own to put this Clause right. As it is, it will do a great deal of harm. It will expose them to pressure in considering the desirability of a scheme on the ground that there is some question of employment, so that they may be induced to assent to schemes in particular parts of the country which are not really those on which public money ought to be spent. That is not what anyone desires. No one has been more strong than the Chancellor of the Exchequer in declaring that that is not what is desired. What he does desire is that the works should be carried out at the proper time, having regard to the state of the labour market. If the Government are not prepared to make some alternative proposal, I shall vote against the Motion of the Solicitor-General.

    My Noble Friend has pointed out that if the Clause is left as it stands, the Commissioners will certainly be rendered liable to pressure of a very undesirable character in considering schemes. If the Clause is left as it stands, infallibly and inevitably the Government of the day, whenever there is a time of slack or doubtful employment, will continue to be exposed in this House and outside to political pressure in connection with various schemes. Clause 18 says that in making advances in respect of the execution of any work, regard should be had to the state of the labour market. Who makes the advances under the Act? It is the Treasury, and the Treasury is subject to the direction of the Executive Government of the day. Therefore you have it laid down in an Act of Parliament that in considering whether they will make an advance of public money for a particular scheme it is to be the duty of the Treasury to consider the state of the labour market at the moment when they decide to make the advance. Such a provision really can serve no useful purpose, and it will certainly expose not only the Commissioners, but also the Treasury throughout the whole of their dealings with this Act to pressure of an extremely undesirable kind. I hope the Government will look at the matter, not from the point of view of a punctilio, or injured or threatened dignity, but from the point of view of the real dangers which have been pointed out.

    It is out of no disrespect at all to the Noble Lord opposite that I abstain from arguing this question on its merits; I have argued before that the apprehension which appears to be in the minds of some hon. Members is not reasonably founded. If I abstain from discussing the question on its merits, it is because I ask the House to disagree with the Lords Amendment on the ground of privilege.

    We have heard from the Solicitor-General that he abstains from discussing the question on its merits on the ground of privilege. It seems to me an illustration of the extremely ludicrous, preposterous, and portentous extent to which this doctrine of privilege is stretched. In whatever conversations we are going to have outside of this House in the not distant future on this subject we shall take care to show how this doctrine stands in the way of the public interest.

    I really think that the Solicitor-General is rather wanting in courtesy in not giving some explanation why the Government reject this Amendment. Clearly the Government have some reason on the merits of the question. I am certain that any common-sense person reading the amended Clause, and also the one in the Bill, must come to the conclusion that since the attention of the Commissioners is to be concentrated upon the selection of the time when this work is to be executed, it is most important that the Clause should clearly define that and make beyond all question the one thing which is to guide them in their decision. Instead of that the whole issue is confused by mixing up the time of giving approval to a scheme and the time of making an advance. It seems to me a deplorable thing that, merely because of a question of privilege, the Government should decline to accept an Amendment which is manifestly an improvement on the Bill. Why the Government should fall back upon this miserable plea of privilege is beyond my comprehension.

    Question, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Clause 19—(Provisions As To Commons And Open Spaces)

    (1) Where an order made by the Development Commissioners under Part I. or Part II. of this Act authorises the acquisition of any land forming part of any common, open space, or allotment, the order, so far as it relates to the acquisition of such land, shall be provisional only, and shall not have effect unless and until it is confirmed by Parliament, except where the order provides for giving in exchange for such land other land, not being less in area, certified by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to be equally advantageous to the persons, if any, entitled to commonable or other rights and to the public:

    Provided that—

  • (a) This provision shall not apply to the acquisition of any common land for the purpose of forestry if the order provides for the granting to the public of reasonable access to the land for air, exercise, or recreation unless the land has been dedicated to the public use and enjoyment or is a metropolitan common within the terms of the Metropolitan Commons Act, 1866, or is a suburban common as defined by the Commons Act, 1876, or is subject to a scheme of regulation made in pursuance of the Metropolitan Commons Acts, 1866 to 1898, or the Inclosure Acts, 1845 to 1899, or to a private or local Act of Parliament; and
  • (b) This provision shall not apply to the acquisition of any common land for the purpose of the construction of a new road or the improvement of an existing road within a rural district; and
  • (c) Nothing in this Act shall authorise the acquisition of land on either side of a new road to be constructed by the Road Board where the land forms part of a common, open space, or allotment.
  • (2) Before giving any such certificate of equality of exchange the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall give public notice of the proposed exchange, and shall afford opportunities to all persons interested to make representations and objections in relation thereto, and shall, if necessary, hold a local inquiry on the subject.

    (3) Where any order of the Development Commissioners authorises such an exchange the order shall provide for vesting the land given in exchange in the persons in whom the common, open space, or allotment was vested, subject to the same rights, trusts, and incidents as attached to the common, open space, or allotment, and for discharging the part of the common, open space, or allotment acquired from all rights, trusts, and incidents to which it was previously subject.

    (4) For the purposes of this Act the expression "common" shall include any land subject to be enclosed under the Inclosure Acts, 1845 to 1882, and any town or village green; the expression "open space" means any land laid out as a public garden or used for the purposes of public recreation and any disused burial ground; and the expression "allotment" means any allotment set out as a fuel allotment or a field garden allotment under an Inclosure Act.

    Lords Amendment: Leave out from the word "Parliament" in Sub-section (1) to the end of Sub-section (3), and insert, "but this provision shall not apply to the acquisition of any common land for the purpose of the construction of a new road or the improvement of an existing road within a rural district. Provided that no order of the Development Commissioners under Part I. or Part II. of this Act shall authorise the acquisition of any land which is a metropolitan common within the terms of the Metropolitan Commons Act, 1866, or is a suburban common as defined by the Commons Act, 1876, or is subject to a, scheme of regulation made in pursuance of the Metropolitan Commons Acts, 1866 to 1898, or the Inclosure Acts, 1845 to 1899, or to a private or local Act of Parliament."

    As I had in hand the negotiations with regard to the original proposal, I may be allowed to state the reasons why the Government disagree with the Lords Amendment. I think the Amendment was inserted in another place under a misunderstanding. There was no discussion there, and the gentleman representing the Commons and Open Spaces Preservation Society had not an opportunity of explaining the reasons for our putting down the Clause as it originally stood in the Bill. The Clause, as I have already explained, was the result of a very long negotiation with the society which has a right to speak in favour of the preservation of commons, and which contains among its members and officials a very large number of the Members of both Houses of Parliament. The Clause did not give us all we wanted in the Development Bill, nor did it give the Commons and Open Spaces Preservation Society all they wanted. The Clause embodied what was in the nature of an agreed compromise. It was discussed a little in Committee upstairs, and passed unanimously there, and it was passed unanimously on the Report stage in this House. The general result of the Clause as it left the House is that, following the precedent of the Housing and Town Planning Bill, no common land could be taken for any purpose under this Act unless some equivalent land of equal value was given in exchange. We took power giving the Commissioners the right of afforestation of waste lands under certain limited conditions so long as reasonable access to the land for air, exercise or recreation is granted to the public, and so long as the land has not been dedicated to public use or employment. From that you exempt metropolitan and suburban commons and commons under private or local Acts. Then we took powers to make roads through common lands if the Commissioners wished to do so within the rural districts, and we struck out the right to acquire land for 220 yards on each side of those roads. The Lords have put in an Amendment which prevents us from acquiring any common land for any of these purposes except that for roads in rural districts, and that also under limited conditions. They have refused the right of afforestation of waste lands, and they have refused the right of roads in commons in rural districts which are not urban commons. We ask the House to adhere to the compromise which was suggested in conjunction with the Commons and Open Spaces Preservation Society, which will prevent the possibility of a road being diverted to a great common which is really a waste land on the one hand, or the somewhat wild regions in this country eminently suited for experiments in afforestation, not being allowed to be subject to these experiments without a special Act of Parliament.

    I do not in the least wish to go into the question with regard to the Commons Preservation Society. There are two views, as my hon. Friend (Mr. Masterman) knows. Of course it does not bind this House in the least. It may bind my hon. Friend (Mr. Cowan), but I do not complain of that. I think we had better keep quite clear of it. I can see nothing to justify my hon. Friend (Mr. Masterman) in saying that all friends of commons accepted the Government form of the Bill as arranged here and on Report. It was at least an enormous improvement on the previous condition of the Bill. But I find myself in a great difficulty. I believe that there is a serious danger to the commons under this Clause in the Government form. With regard to fighting the matter on this occasion, I should certainly leave it to others to fight if anyone wishes to do so, and for this reason: my hon. Friend says it would not be right under all the circumstances of the Bill entirely to exclude the power of taking certain common lands. On the Report which came before this House on afforestation a very strong case was made out against the possibility of growing coniferous timber in England—in contrast to Wales, and Scotland, and Ireland—with any possibility of its paying. In connection with these schemes that were proposed at that time concerning the middle heights of the mountains of Wales there is a great deal of common land there which is at the present time devoted to growing mutton. It is that question between mutton and coniferous timber in certain portions of the Welsh hills which ought to be left open. There is one great difficulty in accepting the more sweeping Amendment of the House of Lords. On the other hand we must remember that this Amendment of Lord Meath is not made as a Conservative or party Amendment in the House of Lords. It is made by one who has always had a great interest in the question of open spaces, and it was accepted by the Government in another place without a single word. My hon. Friend made no allusion to what passed in the House of Lords except that he thought it was accepted under a misapprehension.

    Well, they did not say a word. As a general rule, if objection is strongly felt, especially towards an Amendment which so completely changes the framework of the Clause, some protest is made at the time, but this was not done by the Government. What is the principal danger in connection with the afforestation of commons in England? This House has been very careful to prevent any imitation in recent years of the horrible practice of enclosing the commons against the public, which had occurred until the matter was taken up in this House. This Bill enables a case to arise, which I think will arise, which ought not to be the subject of a change in the law at the present time, and ought not to be passed over without being put before the House, although it may be very difficult to find a- correct form of words and very difficult to draft a proper Clause which would be a fair compromise as between the two proposals before us. There is the danger, of course, in the road part of the Clause as regards commons, but it is guarded in the Government proposal, and I merely mention that some beautiful commons have been destroyed by railways before this House began to attend to the question. I do not know whether I can speak for Sir Robert Hunter, who is the strongest supporter of Lord Meath's Amendment, but I can speak for myself and some others—I discussed it with Lord Eversley, I think—and we should be quite prepared to give up the roads if a compromise were arrived at. It is confined to rural roads, and, in the case of these powers, I do not think it is likely that the roads part of the Clause will seriously operate for harm to the Commons. But the afforestation part may undoubtedly do harm.

    I will put two cases. There is the case of the very large Lammas lands in some parishes which have been saved, which in very many cases have been planted with osiers and cause no harm. A number of these are still ordinary rural commons and not suburban commons. In the case of these there, is one class of afforestation that would, in my opinion, pay, that is the culture of willows. A very large portion of those that have been enclosed is now under willow cultivation, and it is a form of afforestation which I think many local authorities would approve of and which is likely to be undertaken and to pay. In that ease I think we may lose under the provisions of this Bill important public rights. You are to have the right of reasonable access for recreation, but in many cases which exist now where public authorities hold land, afforested and other lands similarly treated by law, the sporting rights are let. There is nothing in this Bill to prevent the authorities letting the sporting rights over these lands, just as lords of the manor do let the sporting rights now over commons, and as public authorities do in the case of fuel allotments which are near commons. I feel certain that there is a real danger of reasonable access for the purpose of recreation being so interpreted where the shooting is let, where the letting of the shooting is an important portion of the rent, and that the public will really be excluded. Judging from what I have seen in three Royal forests in different parts of the country where this sort of access is given, the interpretation of rights of access in these cases where the shooting of these lands is let must certainly tend to produce a real danger in the Government proposal. I agree that the other words are probably too wide. It is very difficult to draft words on the spur of the moment, but everything that will happen in future in working this Clause will have to be carefully watched by this House.

    The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down is a well-known, friend of open spaces, and the House will attach importance to his views. I am in a different position, because I am responsible for the negotiations conducted between the Commons Preservation Society and the Government, as represented by the hon. Member (Mr. Masterman), who preceded the right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles Dilke). I do not feel under those circumstances that I am justified in going into the merits of the Lords Amendment. I am bound to say, if I had my choice as between the Amendment and the Government proposal, I should prefer the Clause as amended by the House of Lords. I think that when the House of Lords was good enough to make Amendments obviously in the public interest, it would be very agreeable, to the feelings of the House if the Government were able to accept them. At the same time the Government treated us with extreme fairness throughout the negotiations; they conceded to us a great deal more than some of their supporters thought they were justified in conceding, and there is no doubt whatever that we have obtanied substantially all that is necessary for the protection of commons and open spaces. That being so, I am bound to adhere to the compromise effected. I am bound to give the Government credit for the fair manner in which they treated us. Of course, if the Government, as an act of grace, were to offer as more, what the House of Lords is endeavouring to obtain for us, we should be grateful to the Government. But that I do not ask. I am satisfied with what we have got, and I thank the Government for what they have done.

    For my part I cannot share the view that has just been expressed. When the hon. Member talks about compromise I do not follow him. I have detected no note of compromise in the statement which was made by the Under-Secretary (Mr. Masterman).

    The compromise is to be found in the Clause which was accepted by the Government upstairs. It was practically an agreed clause.

    I am quite aware of what passed upstairs, but the hon. Member recalls that in another place further Amendments were moved. Those Amendments were actually inserted in the Bill. So far as I can gather from the Under-Secretary those Amendments are to be totally disagreed with, and the Bill is to be restored to the state in which it was before it went to the other House at all. I think the Clause as it stands in the Bill, and as it left this House—that is to say, in the condition which the. Government proposed to pass it into law—is full of genuine dangers to existing open spaces. The hon. Member opposite, I understand, feels that he cannot get any further concession out of the Government, and therefore he abandons the attack. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir C. Dilke) apparently fully realises these dangers, but he is too diffident to press more than an academic protest.

    I am a Member of the Commons Preservation Society, and I have been chairman of that society, but I feel a, good deal hampered by what has happened since.

    It is well that the House should appreciate the dangers which exist. I think they are really very great. It is not merely with regard to roads that the commons may be affected. Part I. of the Act contains proposals which include light railways, experiments in agriculture, and various other matters of that character, and there is no guarantee such as we should possess that afforestation or light railways will be the only things which will curtail common rights. I must make a further observation about Sub-section (a). The Provisional Order procedure under Sub-section (1) is excluded from Sub-section (a), and does not apply. If common land is taken for the purpose of afforestation the public by the terms of the Subsection are to have "reasonable access to the land for air, exercise, recreation," and so on. Let me say frankly, I think that is disastrous. If you afforest land, whatever may be your sentiment about public rights or air, recreation, and exercise, to give access to the public would be perfectly fatal to the young woods, for the people might smoke there and burn out the young woods and destroy them. That is the universal experience. When you have the woods already, well and good; the people may do no harm, except, perhaps, cut their initials upon the trees. But when you have young woods, it would be perfectly fatal to admit the public for air, exercise, and recreation. You may say that they might be allowed to walk through the drives in the wood for recreation, but ex hypothesi these woods and forests would be in districts remote from great urban centres. I really think that, for the sake of academic homage to public rights, it is ridiculous to insert a provision the result of which might be to really imperil the existence of a forest. It is a great mistake, but I suppose it is of no use protesting. It is quite obvious the Government do not mean to accept any of these Amendments save one or two verbal Amendments. Yet it is well that we should state our opinion that this Clause as proposed to be enacted is a definite infringement of the existing law for the maintenance of commons and open spaces, and as such is very detrimental indeed.

    The Noble Lord is inaccurate in his allegation that we are determined to accept no Amendment except verbal Amendments. I can assure him that the Government, my hon. Friend, and myself have looked with a single eye to improving the Bill. With regard to this particular Amendment, of course we are not prevented at all from dealing with the Lords Amendment by reason of agreements made between the Commons Preservation Society and those interested in the Bill, and which were incorporated by the Government in the Clause. The history of the matter given by my hon. Friend is a perfectly accurate one. The Commons Preservation Society, who have done so much for the preservation of commons, represented the matter to the Government, and it was upon their application that these Clauses were inserted. The effect of the Lords Amendment would be this: First of all, it would prevent entirely the compulsory acquisition of any common land except by Provisional Order. In regard to the roads part and the development part of the Bill, we cannot assent to the proposition that in no case ought we to acquire common land except by Provisional Order. The other effect of the Lords Amendment will be to prevent entirely the acquisition of any urban common land. In the Clause as it appears in the Bill, we have the two sets of Commissioners, the Development Commissioners and the Road Board to deal with common land, and we have hedged about their powers. Except for afforestation and drives through woods, we have said that in no case can they take common land unless the Board of Agriculture is satisfied that land not less in area and equal in convenience is being substituted for the land taken. Surely if you require a Provisional Order in every case, apart from these two exceptions, that is a very ample protection.

    With regard to the exclusion from the operation of the provision of land for afforestation, that is a matter to which prominence has been given by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean and the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Balcarres). I know a great deal about these common lands in the Principality from which I come, and I think so far from the commoners objecting to any land being taken for afforestation, they would be very glad indeed to have it, on being compensated for their common rights, because afforestation does a great deal to cover and shelter the sheep now grazing on the Welsh hills. Everybody knows that it is of the utmost importance to have plantations for the protection of these animals. With regard to a further observation made by the Noble Lord opposite, I entirely agree that where the public have access to common lands the privileges afforded should be properly used. The provision of reasonable access is for the purpose of I air, exercise and recreation, and I have no doubt that it is entirely within the powers of the Commissioners to see that nobody abuses those privileges for purposes of mischief. I think that the protection we have given to common lands ought to be accepted by everyone who has the interests of these commons and open lands at heart. If I had to choose between proposals of the Government and those of the Lords. I certainly, as one interested in common lands, should prefer the proposals contained in our Clause 19 to the provisions incorporated by the Amendments of the House of Lords.

    As one interested in commons and open spaces, I am glad that this Debate has occurred. The observations of the Noble Lord opposite, I think, have been largely answered by the learned Solicitor-General. This compromise, if passed into law, will go far to pre- serve commons and all their amenities. I think it is a very good thing that the matter has been debated, and where there are commons no effort should be missed to secure that they are kept. In Scotland commons have mostly disappeared, but I congratulate those societies who have moved in the matter upon the enactment of the Clause as it stood before it went to another place.

    8.0 P.M

    I am rather astonished at the position the Government have taken with regard to the Lords Amendment. Undoubtedly it is generally understood that the Clause as a whole was accepted. That was the general opinion outside. But even if it is not so, and if the Government, as they now say, oppose the Clause, they ought, in common fairness to the House of Lords, to have said so at once. I should be sorry indeed to take part in opposing anything which comes from the House of Lords simply because it does come from that Assembly. To my mind, it is a ridiculous position to take up, and I should gladly accept anything that is good, no matter where it comes from. As this is a matter of great importance, I will say a word or two in regard to the Corporation of the City of London. I do not refer to the open space in front of the Royal Exchange, but I do refer to Epping Forest, which is one of the finest open spaces, I suppose, in the whole country, and which we in the City are most anxious to protect in every way. The law officers of the Corporation state that it is very important that the proviso of Clause 19 which was inserted by the House of Lords should be retained, as it provides for the protection of open spaces under the control of the corporation. If there is ample protection in the Bill without the Lords Amendment, the Government ought to tell us so, and explain it. They have not done so in the House of Lords, that is certain; they have said nothing, and they pretend that the Bill was right enough as it stood when it went to the House of Lords. They are trying to rely on some bargain of theirs, or some promise, or supposed compromise with some society. That society did not object to the Clouse and, as I understand, they are in favour of it. Surely, therefore, if it gives more protection to open spaces the Government ought readily to agree to it, and I hope, even now, they will reconsider their decision, and that they will not take up the position that they will not accept anything because it comes from the House of Lords. They admitted in the House of Lords that this was a good Clause, and I hope they will take up the same position here. I am bound to say, as a supporter of the Government, that if they do not do so I shall feel bound to vote against them.

    I think the learned Solicitor-General somewhat underrated the possible effects of afforestation. As he is probably aware, in the New Forest some years ago an attempt at afforestation was made with, and as everybody knows, disastrous results. I take it, where you have any plantation of trees you cannot admit the public for a certain number of years at all. I am not familiar with the business of afforestation, but I have noticed where young plantations are being made that those responsible for them are particularly careful to exclude the public altogether. Therefore, in the event of a common being used for afforestation, it would be necessary to exclude the public altogether from that part of the common. In that way the terms of the Bill seem to me to be absurd. With regard to this matter I am in the same position as my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Cowan). Because I had some little share in connection with the Commons and Footpaths Preservation Society as to this matter. I must say I am profoundly grateful to the Government for their kind acceptance of the very strong recommendation made to them. I should like to see some such Clause as that adopted in the Lords made a Standing Order of this House, so that legislation as to open spaces might be more perfect in its character. While I should like to support the Lords Amendment, I shall certainly not take any action against the Motion.

    In the Division which I have the privilege of representing there are some of the most beautiful commons in the South of England—one of them in particular, Harpenden Common. If the Amendment from the Lords is not accepted it would be possible, even without the Provisional Order, to ruin the beauty of some of those commons. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir C. W. Dilke) seemed to be of the opinion that the chief danger would arise from afforestation. That would not apply to our commons or those in neighbouring counties, because the areas are restricted in size; but one could hardly imagine, say in the case of Harpenden Common, a decision more fatal to the beauty of the whole district than a resolution, say, to cut one of those great roads through that common. The road would naturally run from south to north along the length of the common, and powers would be taken to acquire 220 yards on either side of such road, which practically would involve the whole surface of that common. So that unless this Amendment is embodied in the Bill there is at any rate a danger of the destruction of such a beautiful feature of the countryside as these commons constitute. Then there are people in those common grounds who have clearance for firewood and turbary and pasture, I know it is claimed by the learned Solicitor-General that the Government have made provision for the interests of those common owners, but the mere substitution of another piece of laud of the same area, and as to the quality of which we shall have no kind of guarantee and which need not even be adjacent does not deal with the matter.

    That is a very wide term, and it might be alleged that another piece of land was equally advantageous. I think that great danger is likely to arise from those great roads and the obtaining of the control of the spaces to the right and left. Great danger would arise from the proposal of afforestation, and I have no doubt that in places like the New Forest an immense amount of harm has already been done by the injudicious planting of trees, and by the substitution for the hardwooded indigenous trees of juniper trees, changing that bright, picturesque English look into a mournful dreary aspect. I venture to urge the Government, as they have been urged from the other side, to accept this Amendment.

    Question, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Schedule

    Lords Amendment: In paragraph (1), leave out the words, "An order by the Development Commissioners empowering a Government Department, body, or persons to whom an advance is made under Part I. of this Act, or the Road Board, or a highway authority (in this Schedule referred to as 'the undertakers') to acquire land compulsorily shall," and insert instead thereof,

    "(1) Where a Government Department, body, or persons to whom an advance is made under Part I of this Act, or the Road Board or a highway authority (in this Schedule referred to as 'the undertakers') propose to purchase land compulsorily under this Act, the undertakers may submit to the Development Commissioners an order putting in force, as respects the lands specified in the order, the provisions of the Lands Clauses Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement.

    "(2) The order shall be in the prescribed form and shall contain such provisions as the Development Commissioners may prescribe for the purpose of carrying the order into effect, and."

    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: In paragraph (1), after "1845" ["Consolidation Act, 1845"], insert the words "or in Scotland Sections seventy to seventy-eight of the Railways Clauses Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1845."

    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    (D) The provisions of the Lands Clauses Acts as to the sale of superfluous land shall not apply.

    Lords Amendment: In (D), after the word "apply" ["land shall not apply"], insert, "(3) The draft order shall be published by the undertakers in the prescribed manner, and such notice shall be given both in the locality in which the land is proposed to be acquired and to the owners, lessees, and occupiers of that land as may be prescribed and in the case of land forming part of a common, open space, or allotment, also to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries."

    Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: At the end of paragraph (2), insert, "(5) An order may provide for the continuance of any existing easement or the creation of any new easement over the land authorised to be acquired, and every such order shall, if so required by the owner of the land to be acquired, provide for the creation of such new easements as are reasonably necessary to secure the continued use and enjoyment by such owner and his tenants of all means of access, drainage, water supply, and other similar conveniences theretofore used or enjoyed by them over the land to be acquired.

    "(6) Where the land is glebe land or other land belonging to an ecclesiastical benefice, the order shall provide that sums agreed upon or awarded for the purchase of the land or to be paid by way of compensation for the damage to be sustained by the owner by reason of severance or other injury affecting the land, shall not be paid as directed by the Land Clauses Acts, but shall be paid to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to be applied by them as money paid to them upon a sale under the provisions of the Ecclesiastical Leasing Acts of land belonging to a benefice.

    "The provisions of this paragraph shall not apply to Scotland or Ireland."

    moved, in new paragraph (5), to leave out all the words after the word "acquired" ["easement over the land authorised to be acquired"] to the end of the paragraph.

    Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment," put, and negatived.

    Question, "Thai this House doth agree with the Lords Amendment, as amended," put, and agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: In paragraph (3), after the word "easements" ["shall include easements"], insert the words "or in Scotland servitudes."

    Question, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: At the end of Schedule insert "(7) In this Schedule the expression 'prescribed' means 'prescribed' by the Development Commissioners."

    moved at the end of the proposed Amendment to insert the words "In Scotland the word 'easements' shall mean 'servitudes.'"

    Amendment to Lords Amendment agreed to.

    Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

    Committee appointed to draw up Reason to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing with the Amendments made by the Lords to the Bill.

    Committee nominated of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Robert Cecil, Mr. Masterman, Viscount Morpeth, and the Solicitor-General.

    Three to be the quorum.

    To withdraw immediately.—[ Mr. Masterman.]

    Reasons for disagreeing with Lords Amendments afterwards reported, and agreed to.

    To be communicated to the Lords.—[ The Solicitor-General.]

    Housing, Town Planning, Etc, Bill

    Order read for Consideration of Lords Amendments to Commons Amendments to Lords Amendments, and to Commons Consequential Amendments to the Bill, and Lords Consequential Amendment to the Bill, and Lords Amendments in lieu of Amendments disagreed to by Commons.

    Motion made and Question proposed, "That the said Amendments be now considered."

    Perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House if, before agreeing to these Amendments from another place, a brief statement were made as to the reasons for that course, and as to what agreement with the Amendments means. After this Bill was returned to the Lords, communications took place between the Government and the Opposition. The other place wished for alterations on the following points: They thought that an appeal to the county court or to some other judicial body was essential with regard to closing orders, demolition orders, the question of repairs and maintenance, instead of to the Local Government Board, as the Bill originally suggested and to which the Commons adhered. The Government declined the County Court as an alternative to the Local Government Board, but gave an appeal on points of law to the High Court, and now provide for a public local inquiry by the Local Government Board before an appeal on a closing order, demolition order, or repairs can be dismissed. To that position we ask the House of Commons to adhere. The second point to which importance was attached was the exclusion of the county council and the county boroughs. For reasons given on another occasion we were compelled to decline that exemption and to that position we must adhere. The third point the Lords wanted was that an order declaring the London County Council or any county borough in default as regards Part in. should be laid upon the Table for 30 days. The Government refused this, but agreed that the order when made in these cases should be laid upon the Table for information only. Fourthly, the Lords wished the confirmation of town planning schemes to be made by Provisional Order whenever objected to. The Government declined the method of Provisional Order as expressed by what is known as the "Cawdor" Clause, but agreed to lay the draft order upon the Table for 30 days.

    Then the Lords wished that the betterment accruing from a town planning scheme should be confined exclusively to the expenditure incurred by the local authority. The Government declined this suggestion, and adhered to the offer originally made and put forward in this House—namely, that 50 per cent. of the betterment accruing to a district from a town planning scheme should go to the local authority and 50 per cent. to the owner. To this position by the acceptance of Amendments the Government now adhere. The next was what some considered to be an important point—namely, the medical officer of health. The Lords Amendment objected to the duties of the medical officer of health being prescribed by the Local Government Board. On that the Government adhered to the position which they took up in the Bill—namely, the irremovability of the medical officer of health except with the consent of the Local Government Board. That position we maintained, but we agreed that the Order prescribing the general duties for the county medical officer of health should be laid on the Table for 21 days.

    In all other respects the Bill remains as returned to the Lords from the Commons, except with regard to the seventh point. The Lords wanted what are known as "Port of London terms" for the compulsory acquisition of land. For reasons which I advanced on a previous occasion the Government declined to accept Port of London terms, but agreed that small holdings terms should be retained as in the Bill originally introduced for rural districts, and that was varied by the Government consenting to a modification of the form of Port of London terms for urban districts. The modification briefly is that in urban areas, if an order is objected to, what is known as "an independent person" appointed by the Local Government Board shall hold a local inquiry. The inquiry is not on the necessity for acquiring the land, but is limited to the question whether the particular land is suitable, and whether its compulsory acquisitions will involve undue detriment to the persons interested.

    Having made that statement, and having told the House that the Amendments on the Blue Paper, to all of which the Government agree, embody a compromise agreed to between the Government and another place on this important and useful Bill, I appeal to the House to accept these Amendments and thus terminate a controversy in reference to a measure which has been a long time before Parliament, in which Members in all parts of the House have shown a keen and sympathetic interest, a Bill which is now on the eve of becoming law, and which when it is law I sincerely trust will do for the housing of the people all that we wish and all that some of us believe it will do.

    It will probably save time if I say what I have to say on the general statement of the right hon. Gentleman rather than on specific Amendments. The part of the statement which I heard with the least acceptance was that in which the right hon. Gentleman said he was unable to concede an inquiry before a judicial tribunal instead of the appeal to the Local Government Board in certain cases. On the ground of expense and good administration, and still more on the ground that certain of the smaller local authorities are very much in need of control by a legal authority in reference to these matters, I think it is a pity that the Government have not agreed to an appeal to the county court rather than to the Local Government Board. I desire to place on record my strong belief that the machinery provided by the Govenment is expensive and inefficient, and that the appeal to the Local Government Board, followed by a local inquiry by an inspector sent down, is a far more cumbrous, expensive, and unwieldly procedure than an appeal to a county court judge sitting in the neighbourhood, always available, and accustomed to deal with similar matters in dis- pute between landlord and tenant. I am, personally, confident that that part of the Government scheme is thoroughly bad and unsatisfactory.

    I am very glad the Government have adhered to their proposal that the medical officer of health should be irremovable, and I think, also, it is right that he should take his orders from the local authority and not from the Local Government Board. The only other point I desired to mention was the question of the taking of land in an urban area. On the whole, the compromise does not seem to me to be an unfair one on the matter in dispute. It is quite true that in the taking of rural land involving a comparative small amount of money one does not want to make inquiry into that so expensive as to put an end to improvements which we all desire. As for the actual variation from the Port of London terms, my impression is that it is more apparent than real. I do not withdraw from anything I have said as to the very unsuitable character of the original Small Holdings Schedule. I believe that to be in many respects defective, and, sooner or later, it will have to be altered. But I recognise that the fact that it has been accepted in the small holdings case makes it very difficult for the Government to depart from it at this time in subsequent legislation. The only other thing I desire to say is that personally I am extremely glad that there is no chance of this Bill perishing. It might have been very much better. In many respects it is defective. But I believe it is a Bill which moves in the right direction, and some of its provisions are certainly very valuable. I should have deeply regretted any action on the part of the Government that would have made it impossible for their Bill to become law. I am extremely glad that wiser counsels prevailed on each side, and that we have arrived at a compromise which, though it is not in all respects satisfactory, at any rate has the supreme merit of having prevented the loss of this Bill.

    Lords Amendments to Commons Amendments to Lords Amendments, and to Commons Consequential Amendments to the Bill, and Lords Consequential Amendment to the Bill, and Lords Amendments in lieu of Amendments disagreed to by Commons agreed to.

    Commons Amendment to Lords Amendent disagreed to by the Lords not insisted upon and Lords Amendments in lieu thereof agreed to.

    Small Dwelling Houses In Burghs Letting And Rating (Scotland) Bill

    Order read for consideration of Lords Amendments to Commons Amendments to Lords Amendments, and Lords Reason for disagreeing to Commons consequential Amendment.

    Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."

    I propose, in the first place, to agree with the drafting Amendment in the new Clause (A) to leave out the words "levied on and." With regard to the new Sub-section which the Lords propose to introduce, I propose to disagree with that Amendment. With regard to the new Clause (D) inserted there by the Commons to which the Lords disagree, I propose to substitute for the new Clause (D) the following:—

    "Every payment in pursuance of the provisions of the immediately preceding Sections shall be deemed a payment of the full assessment by the occupier for the purpose of any franchise which depends on such payment: Provided that where an owner who is responsible therefor omits or neglects to pay any such assessment the occupier may pay the same and deduct the amount from the rent due or accruing due to the owner, and the receipt for such assessment shall be a valid discharge of the rent to the extent of the assessment so paid; and provided further that all provisions of any Act with respect to notice to be given of occupier's assessments in arrear shall apply to occupiers of premises capable of conferring any franchise as aforesaid, notwithstanding that the owners of such premises are responsible for the occupier's assessments thereon."

    I may state in a sentence that the reason why I take that course is that if the Lords new Sub-section were agreed to great financial inconvenience would be caused. The parish councils and many occupiers who have actually paid their poor rates will be disfranchised.

    I should like to understand the full effect of this new Clause as read out by the Lord Advocate before voting or assenting to the Bill in the manner he suggests. I should like to know whether this new Clause provides that the tenant shall be retained on the roll of voters?

    On that understanding, Mr. Caldwell, I shall vote for the Bill, though I should like to say before it goes through that the Bill does not give what is wanted. It cuts down the time in which the man was tied to his house, and, although the rent limit is not so high as we should like it, yet I recognise that the Bill is a considerable instalment, and does better the position very considerably. So far as its rating provisions go, although that is a matter upon which the workman does not feel so keenly, yet I am glad to find that the Lord Advocate has disagreed with this Amendment of the Lords, which would have had the effect of disfranchising a good many men, and which, so far as I understand it, had the effect also of enabling the landlords to collect and retain moneys in their hands for a considerable period. As I understand it, that provision is now taken out of the Bill. And on that ground I will vote for the Bill going through.

    Question, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered" put, and agreed to.

    Lords Amendment: In new Clause (A), after paragraph (iii), insert the following new Sub-section:—

  • "(i) If an owner who has undertaken by agreement with the occupier to pay any assessment on his behalf omits or neglects to pay it, the occupier may pay the same and deduct the amount from the rent due or accruing due to the owner, and the receipt for such assessment shall be a valid discharge of the rent to the extent of the assessment so paid.
  • (ii) An owner shall not be called upon nor be liable to pay any assessment imposed by a parish council on behalf of an occupier under or in virtue of the provisions of this section until after the twentieth day of June next following the imposition of the assessment.
  • (iii) All provisions of any Act with respect to notice to be given of occupiers' assessments in arrear shall apply to occupiers of premises capable of conferring any qualification or franchise, although the owners of such premises are responsible for the occupiers' assessments thereon."
  • I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

    Question, "That the House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

    The Lords disagreed to new Clause (D) inserted by the Commons for the following reason:—

    "Because under its provisions an owner might be compelled to pay the parish council rates of an occupier at such a date as to qualify him for the parliamentary franchise, although he might never pay those rates."

    Lords Reason read a second time: —

    Resolved, that this House doth not insist upon its Amendment to which the Lords have disagreed. —[ The Lord Advocate.]

    And, instead thereof, new Clause (D) (Occupiers' assessments) —[ The Lord Advocate] —inserted in the Bill.

    Committee appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing with the Amendments made by the Lords to the Bill.

    Committee nominated of the Lord Advocate, the Solicitor-General for Scotland, Mr. Murray Macdonald, and Mr. Barnes.

    Three to be the quorum.

    To withdraw immediately. —[ Mr. Ure.]

    Reasons for disagreeing with Lords Amendments afterwards reported, and agreed to.

    To be communicated to the Lords.—[ Mr. Ure.]

    Assurance Companies Bill Lords

    As amended, considered.

    New Clause —(Illegitimacy Not To Invalidate Policies)

    "Policies issued by collecting societies, industrial assurance companies, or mutual insurance societies, under the terms of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, or other Act relating thereto, or under the provisions of this Act shall not be held to be invalid or void because of the illegitimacy of any of the parties concerned in such policies."

    I move this new Clause for the purpose of enabling the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade to give us the result of the further consideration which he has given to this matter as he promised last night. The object of the new Clause is to bring in illegitimates as persons who would be able to take out policies and as being entitled to act in regard to policies that have been taken out. In other words, it is to remove the bar that at present exists in law to these persons. I should like, in the first place, to remind the House that it is a matter of very great importance that this bar, which was revealed last night for the first time, should be removed. I have a long experience of friendly societies, and I never heard it suggested that the legal liability of friendly societies or trades unions in respect to an illegitimate child was any different to what it was in respect of a legitimate child. The Debate last night revealed the fact that there is this legal difference, and what we fear now is that it will be made known to a large number of people interested in getting out of their financial obligations and their moral obligations as well. Therefore the matter ceases to be one of abstract interest and becomes a matter of great practical interest. We desire to put this claim forward upon its merits. I should like to remind the right hon. Gentleman of the grounds on which a similar matter was submitted to the House three or four years ago when we put forward a similar demand in respect to the Workmen's Compensation Act. We put forward the plea that a parent, either mother or father, might benefit in the event of the death by accident of a child, and I remember quite well the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil appealing to the House and putting the case of the poor woman who had an illegitimate child and had in consequence suffered from that fact, so that she, more than others, was deserving of consideration. Exactly the same thing applies here, and we do think the right hon. Gentleman might have given this matter more sympathetic and favourable consideration than he did last night. We put forward this claim now in the sincere hope that further consideration has induced him to take a more humane and, as I think, a more Christian view of the situation, and we hope that he may give a more favourable reply than he gave last night.

    I have had an opportunity of considering this matter since last night, and I also had an opportunity of consulting with the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies and some of my colleagues, and I am bound to say my opinion has not been altered. I think the case of the illegitimate child would be gravely prejudiced if insurance companies were made liable. Having very carefully considered this matter, I have concluded that this is not the place to make an alteration in this particular law. I am sure that in some cases what is proposed would not be at all to the benefit of the illegitimate child. There is a great deal of difference between including an illegitimate child to the benefit of the Workmen's Compensation Act and what is now proposed. That is what I have in mind, and I do not think I am drawing any invidious and hard distinction. In these circumstances I am not able to alter the view which I put to the House last night, and I hope this Bill will now be allowed to go through.

    It has now been put forward that it would be illegal for the illegitimate child to have the benefit. I think that is a point which very few officials of trade unions are aware of, and I am quite confident that the point has never yet been raised with regard to the management of trade unions. If that is so, then this question is going to open a very difficult position.

    Supposing, for the sake of argument, the official of a trade union happens to have a spite against a man because he knows that he was an illegitimate child. It would be possible for that official to prevent the relative of that man receiving the benefit he would otherwise be entitled to.

    That may be so, but the new law which is now going through this House obviously brings this question into prominence again, and both the officials of trade unions as well as the officials of the different assurance companies will have this point brought prominently before their notice. It is obvious from that point of view that results not expected at all to arise may easily arise in the future, both in regard to assurance companies and trade unions. If that is the case a great amount of injustice is sure to arise, and as far as we are concerned it raises a very critical point for the millions who are connected with trade unions. It is a fact that the trade unions of the country do not raise any question of legitimacy or illegitimacy in regard to any individual who desires to join the union, but it would be within the power of any individual who happens to have a spite against a man when his claim for funeral benefits is made to prevent the relatives obtaining those benefits if he happens to be illegitimate.

    Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and negatived.

    Amendments made.

    Bill read the third time and passed.

    ADJOURNMENT. — Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn until Wednesday next, December 1st." —[ Mr. Joseph Pease.]

    Adjourned accordingly at Two minutes before Nine o'clock.

    Petitions Presented

    The following Petitions were presented during the week, and ordered to lie upon the Table:—

    Tuesday

    Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill —Petition from Lancaster, in favour.

    Temperance (Scotland) Bill —Petition, from Glasgow, in favour.

    Wednesday

    Finance Bill —Petition from Alveley, against.

    Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday Bill —Petitions in favour, from Brockley, and Fallowfield.