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Commons Chamber

Volume 23: debated on Tuesday 28 March 1911

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House Of Commons

Tuesday, 28th March, 1911.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Private Bills (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Metropolitan Electric Tramways Bill.

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

Private Bills [ Lords] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Slough Urban District Water Bill [ Lords].

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

Private Bills [ Lords] (Petition for additional Provision (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders hve not been complied with, namely:—

Aberdare Urban District Council Bill [ Lords].

Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders. London United Tramways Bill,

Not amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Sligo and Arigna Railway (Abandonment) Bill (by Order),

Belfast Corporation Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.

Labourers' Cottages (Ireland)

Return ordered, "in respect of Labourers' Cottages in Ireland, showing (1) county and rural district; (2) valuation of rural district; (3) number of Labourers' Cottages, (a) built, (b) in course of construction; (4) amount of loans, (a) sanctioned, (b) received; (5) amount required to be raised annually in repayment of loans sanctioned; (6) amount which would be raised by the maximum rate of 1s. in the £ allowed for the purposes of the Acts; (7) amount which it has been proposed to raise in each rural district under the provisions in Section 12 of the Act of 1906; (8) rate per £ required to raise amount specified in column 5; (9) present poundage rate levied on rural district for the Labourers' Acts purposes; (10) amount of Exchequer contribution for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1911; (11) amount of rent received from tenants of cottages and plots during the year; (12) unissued balance, if any, of county's share of the Exchequer contribution; (13) totals per county and province and for all Ireland; and (14) Return made up to the 31st day of March, 1911 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 216, of Session 1910)."—[ Mr. Flavin.]

Oral Answers To Questions

Brussels Sugar Convention

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can say at what date the Brussels Sugar Convention will come up again for ratification by or can be denounced by this country; whether the artificial restriction of the export of sugar from Russia and elsewhere to this country under the Convention has raised the price of sugar to consumers in this country; and whether His Majesty's Government intend to take the earliest opportunity of reverting to free trade in sugar so far as the United Kingdom is concerned?

I must refer the hon. Member to Article 10 of the Sugar Convention of 5th March, 1902, and to Article 1 of the Additional Act of 28th August, 1907, which regulate the denunciation and continued operation of the Convention. It will be seen that the next date on which it is open to one of the contracting States to withdraw from the Convention is 1st September, 1913, provided that notice of withdrawal has been given twelve months in advance. There is no reason to believe that the limitation of Russian exports under the Additional Act has given rise to an increase in the price of sugar in this country, seeing that during the year 1909–1910 the amount of sugar exported by Russia to Conventional markets has been much less than that allowed to her under the Additional Act. During the sugar year in question steps have been taken by the Russian Government themselves, quite independently of their obligations under the Convention, to lessen the export of sugar, as a measure of control over the price of sugar in the home market. In regard to the last part of the question, I would point out that, under the Additional Act, the United Kingdom is at liberty to import sugar from any country which desires to export it, and that this country is not a party to the arrangement under which Russia voluntarily limits the exportation of her sugar.

Am I to understand the right hon. Gentleman that the reduction of supply has not caused a rise in price?

No; what I said was this: the Russian Government have lessened the export of sugar on their own account without any reference to the Sugar Convention at all, and, therefore, nothing that has taken place under the Sugar Convention could be responsible for the rise in price.

Declaration Of London

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention had been called to the terms of Article 49 of the Declaration of London, which authorises the sinking of a neutral prize if the taking of the prize into a port for adjudication—peut compromettre le succès des opérations dans lesquelles le bâtiment de guerre est actuellement engagé—and whether the French words above quoted are accurately translated by the words—would involve danger to the success of the opera- tions in which the warship is engaged at the time?

The answer is in the affirmative. If the hon. Member will refer to the Report of the Conference, on Article 49 (page 56 of the Blue Book, No. 4, Miscellaneous, 1909), he will see that the French words employed were expressly declared to be the equivalent of the words of the English translation.

Are we to take it that the Report is competent to say what the English equivalent of the French term is.

You cannot get a more accurate translation than the one specially agreed upon by the whole Conference as being accurate. They discussed this very point, and it was agreed that this should be regarded as the equivalent.

In view of the numerous statements made as to the mis-translation of the original text by the United States and others, will the right hon. Gentleman direct that a new translation be made?

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will consent to publish a statement of the representations which were made by Chambers of Commerce and Shipping Associations during the Russo-Japanese War to the late Foreign Secretary, with a view of obtaining a clearer definition of contraband, and the replies which were made by Lord Lansdowne?

I am having the Papers examined, with a view to including them when further Papers are laid.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that some Members of this House might desire to support the Second Reading of the Naval Prize Bill who were opposed to the ratification of the Declaration of London, and that other Members might desire to oppose such Second Reading who were in favour of such ratification, he would inform the House at what stage in the proceedings on the Naval Prize Bill, and by what mode of procedure, the opinion of the House could be taken on the definite question whether the Declaration of London should be ratified or not?

The undertaking that His Majesty's Government have given will be fulfilled when the time comes in whatever way is found to be for the general convenience of the House and the course of public business. The undertaking cannot be carried out until the matter has been brought before the Imperial Conference.

Is the Prime Minister aware that in another place they have had an opportunity of discussing the Declaration of London for three whole days? Will he give this House a similar opportunity?

Will the Prime Minister state for the convenience of the House the form in which this very important question can be raised here?

I think it would be premature to do so yet. It has to go before the Imperial Conference, and that cannot be before the month of May.

Will this House be given no opportunity of discussing the question until after the Imperial Conference?

Is the Prime Minister aware of the very great importance attached to this question by Chambers of Commerce and other important commercial bodies throughout the country?

I thought it was the general desire of the House that the Imperial Conference should first have an opportunity of considering the matter.

Baghdad Railway

asked whether the Foreign Secretary will lay on the Table a copy of the agreement or treaty with the Sheik of Koweit; and whether he can define the status quo in regard to Koweit which the British Government insists on maintaining?

I cannot at this stage of the negotiations respecting the Baghdad Railway usefully add to what I have already said on the subject of Koweit.

asked if the negotiations regarding the Baghdad Railway have pro- ceeded so far as to give to Germany the right to construct a branch line from Alexandretta to join the main line; and if in these negotiations care was taken to assure the active construction of the difficult and expensive portion of the railway through the Taurus mountains, so that the main line shall be completed from the Bosphorus to Baghdad and not only from Alexandretta to Baghdad?

The only answer I can give to the first question is to refer the hon. Member to the recent agreement come to by the Turkish Government with the Baghdad Railway Company, the substance of which I gave on the 23rd instant, in reply to the Noble Lord the Member for Hornsey. But I would also draw the hon. Member's attention to Article 12 of the Baghdad Railway Convention of March, 1903, granting the concessionnaires certain preferential rights in respect of any railways which might be built between Mersina and Tripoli. I cannot, not having been a party to the negotiations in question, give precise and definite information in regard to the second question, but construction has already begun on the Taurus section.

Persia

asked whether the Foreign Secretary's attention has been called to the statement made by Lord Morley that further Papers on the affairs of Persia would be published; whether, in view of that statement, he will reconsider his refusal to lay papers upon the Table of this House; and, if he does, up to what date will the papers come?

I have seen Lord Morley's statement, and I will lay papers as soon as I can. They will cover the latest date practicable, but I cannot at the moment fix the date. I have not refused to lay papers; on the contrary, in my answer to the hon. Member on 16th February, I stated that I would consider the question of laying papers as soon as there was a favourable opportunity, and I gave my reason for delaying to do so at the moment.

asked whether the threat to the Persian Government to take over the policing of the southern roads by a militia commanded by officers from British India still holds good, in face of the protest of the Persian Government?

I beg to refer the hon. Member to the remarks which I made on this subject in this House on the 23rd instant in connection with a question asked of me by the hon. Member for the Stirling Burghs in the course of the Debate. I have nothing to add to the statement which I then made.

asked whether there have been received any despatches from the British Minister in Teheran in reference to the assassination of Sani-ed-Dowleh, late Persian Minister of Finance, and the subsequent fate of the assassins; whether the right hon. Gentleman can state whether the assassins have yet been brought to trial; and, if so, what punishment has been inflicted upon them?

I have received a despatch on the subject, stating that, after a preliminary inquiry at the Ministry for Foreign Affairs at Teheran, held in the presence of a Russian official, the murderer and his accomplice were handed over by the Persian authorities to the Russian Legation, according to treaty, to be sent to Russia for trial and punishment. I have no information as to their subsequent fate.

asked whether the Russian Consulate still refuses to surrender the ex-chief of police who fired at the Governor of Ispahan early in February last; and, if so, what punishment has been inflicted on him?

I have no information as to what has passed in connection with this question, later than a report dealing with the incident itself, and an account of the statement made by the Persian Minister for Foreign Affairs in the Mejliss, which it would probably be more convenient to give in answer to an unstarred question, as it is rather long for a verbal answer.

United States And France (Arbitration)

asked if the Governments of the United States and France are commencing negotiations for a treaty of arbitration; and if, under the circumstances, he will approach the French Government with proposals of a nature similar to those he has suggested between this country and the United States?

I have no information on this subject, and I cannot at present make any statement as to approaching the French Government or other Governments.

Opium And Dangerous Drugs (International Conference)

asked the date upon which the International Conference upon Opium and Dangerous Drugs is to meet at The Hague, and which are the Powers to be represented there?

The 1st of July has been suggested as the date for the meeting of the Conference at The Hague, but no definite decision has yet been come to regarding it. The countries invited to attend are those which took part in the International Opium Conference which sat at Shanghai in the spring of 1909. They are:—The United States, China, France, Germany, Great Britain, Japan, the Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Siam, and Persia.

Viceroy Of India's Council (Alleged Insult To Native Member)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention had been drawn to the insult offered by a lieutenant of the British Army in India to Mir Allah Baksh Khan, a member of the Viceroy's Council, whilst travelling in a first-class railway carriage; whether any apology has been offered to Mir Allah Baksh Khan; and what other action, if any, has been taken in connection with the matter?

The Secretary of State has no official information on the subject, but has asked for a report.

Bengal Police (Alleged Torture Of Prisoners)

asked whether the Under-Secretary's attention has been called to the latest official report of the Inspector-General of the Bengal Police, in which he mentions that, in the Purneah district, two men were so tortured by the police that one of them died; whether the only punishment inflicted by the police authorities was degradation for the inspector and extra drills for the men who inflicted the torture; whether, subsequently, judicial proceedings were taken against these men; if so, what was the nature of the torture disclosed; and what was the result of the trial?

asked whether the case of the man whose arms had been tied so tightly by a policeman that blood-poisoning supervened was, according to the Inspector-General of Police, under con- sideration at the end of 1909; whether proceedings were only taken before a magistrate in April, 1910; whether the India Office has now any information as to whether these proceedings have been concluded; whether at these proceedings the statement of the police that the only torture applied to the prisoner consisted in tying his arms tightly to his body, or the statement made by the dying man that boiling filth was placed under his armpits, was substantiated; and whether, in view of the delay in bringing this policeman to justice, the Under-Secretary will take some means of substantiating his declaration that the Government is doing everything it can to suppress physical punishment, amounting to torture, inflicted upon prisoners and witnesses by the police of India?

I will answer these questions, which are on the same subject, together. The Secretary of State has not heard the result of the trial. He had already asked for a report on the case, and has now telegraphed for it to be expedited. Pending its receipt I can make no statement on the subject.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether there is any objection to hanging a policeman who causes another man's death, and whether, if it is not possible under the law, he will take steps to alter the law so that it can be possible?

The maximum punishment is laid down by the provisions of the Indian Penal Code. If the hon. Member seriously suggests a new definition of murder, I will convey his suggestion to the Government of India.

Seditious Meetings Act (India)

asked if the hon. Gentleman proposes to lay Papers informing the House of the negotiations which took place between the India Office and the Indian Government with reference to the renewal of the Seditious Meetings Act?

The communications between the India Office and the Government of India are necessarily confidential, but the debate in Council can be laid, and will give all the requisite information.

Cultivation Of Opium Poppy (India)

asked what is the acreage of land growing the opium poppy in India this spring; whether it is intended further to licence the growing of the opium poppy next autumn, and, if so, to what extent; and what is the number of chests of opium as yet unsold in the possession of the Indian Government?

The limit for this year's spring crop of opium was fixed at 360,000 acres. The limit for the 1911–12 has not yet been fixed. The number of chests in balance on the 31st of this month is estimated at 32,598. This stock will not be supplemented by the crop of the pre sent year until November next.

Extorting Confessions From Untried Prisoners (India)

asked whether, in view of the admitted evils which continue to result from the practice by the Indian police of extorting confessions from untried prisoners, the Secretary of State has ever considered the desirability of so amending the Code of Criminal Procedure as to provide that no confessions shall be admissible in evidence except those made to the court by which the prisoner is tried; and whether the Under-Secretary is aware that, according to the latest Report of the Inspector-General of Police in the United Provinces, local magistrates have in certain districts already been stopped from recording confessions to the police, with the full approval of the magistrate of Meerut as well as the Inspector-General?

My bon. Friend probably refers to the proposal, put forward by the Police Commission, that the Code of Criminal Procedure should be amended so as to provide that confessions should be recorded only by the magistrate having jurisdiction in the case. In dealing with the Report of the Commission Lord Curzon's Government proposed that the power to record confessions should be restricted to magistrates having jurisdiction to try the case and to magistrates of the first or second class. This proposal was accepted by the Secretary of State, and effect will be given to it in the comprehensive revision of the Criminal Procedure Code which is now under the consideration of the Government of India. Confessions to the police are already inadmissible as evidence against the accused under Section 25 of the Indian Evidence Act of 1872. It is a fact that in the Meerut district local magistrates have been ordered not to record confessions.

Subalterns Commanding Companies (Additional Pay)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many subalterns, approximately, in His Majesty's Army are, at the present time, and have been for a period exceeding one month, commanding companies without any additional pay in consideration of the extra work and responsibility?

In order to supply the information asked for it would be necessary to call for a return from every battalion, which would involve very considerable labour and long delay. But I may point out that additional pay is not given to a regimental officer temporarily employed in a higher rank, and that cases such as the hon. Gentleman refers to are very uncommon except in the leave season.

Will the right hon. Gentleman use his now undoubted influence in the direction of granting additional pay to subalterns who are in command of companies for periods exceeding one month?

Army Commissions

asked how many combatant commissions were issued during the five years 1885–9 in the Cavalry; how many of these were commissions from the ranks; and what are the corresponding figures for the years 1906–10?

The figures are as follows:—

Total Cavalry Commissions.From ranks.
1885 to 188937729
1906 to 1910298Nil

asked how many combatant commissions were issued during the five years 1885–9; how many of these were commissions from the ranks; and how these figures compare with the commissions issued during the five years 1906–10?

The figures are as follows:—

Total Combatant Commissions.From ranks.
1885 to 893,357159
1906 to 103,04964

asked whether, in view of the steady diminution in the number of commissions from the ranks, the Government have under consideration any measures likely to increase the opportunities open to men in the ranks to obtain commissions?

This question was thoroughly discussed during the Debate on Army Estimates on 22nd March, and a full statement on the subject was made by the Secretary of State. To that statement I have nothing at present to add.

Case Of Colonel Waldron

asked whether any opportunity will be available for discussing the case of Colonel Waldron and the petition presented by him to the Secretary of State?

The question can be raised when the Vote for the Secretary of State's salary is under discussion.

asked whether all the reports furnished by the various officers consulted with reference to the qualifications of Colonel Waldron for promotion to the rank of general have been furnished to that officer?

Under the King's Regulations the yearly confidential or other official reports on an officer, if adverse, have to be communicated to him verbatim; but when the question of an officer's fitness for promotion by selection to higher rank comes before the Selection Board, the Board is guided not only by the official reports, but also by the personal knowledge which the members of the Board may possess of his qualifications for employment in a higher grade. Mere seniority gives no claim to promotion, the rule being to select for advancement the fittest officers for the appointments tenable by them if promoted. Sir Neville Lyttelton is understood to have consulted Lieut-General Parsons privately about Colonel Waldron, who afterwards appears to have become acquainted with the correspondence; but it was not of a nature to prejudice the Board against Colonel Waldron. I may add that no officers were consulted by the Selection Board, nor were any reports placed before the Board other than the annual confidential reports and the correspondence above referred to.

May I ask whether it is not the fact that Lieut.-General Parsons's report of a private letter was almost the only, if not the only, adverse report against Colonel Waldron?

I do not think that the hon. and gallant Member can assume that the report was adverse.

May I ask whether any specific weight is given in considering the claims of officers to promotion to service in the field?

Yes, of course, that is one of the elements which will weigh with the Selection Board as to his general merits, and, of course, they can best be judged by the period of service in the field.

Infantry Officers (New Sash)

asked why it is considered necessary to put Infantry officers to the expense of buying a new and costly sash when the policy of the Government is stated to be to reduce and not to increase officers' expenses?

I understand that, after due consideration, it has been decided that the new sash is more suitable than that recently in use

.

Army Meat Supply

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, as he finds frozen meat, less those parts removed on account of disease, to be of equal nutritive value as fresh-killed meat and to be considerably cheaper, he proposes to supply the British Army with frozen or refrigerated meat on all days of the week instead of upon three only; and, if not, why not?

No, Sir. It is considered that it is in the best interests of the soldier to vary his diet.

If it is proved that the British soldier does not want this change and prefers fresh meat grown at home, will the right hon. Gentleman receive a deputation on the subject?

Perhaps the Noble Lord would put a question on the Paper with regard to that.

That reply was given by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War. May I ask if the only reason why it is bought abroad is because it is cheaper?

Another cause is, as I say, because it is desirable to vary the diet.

Am I to understand that we may eliminate the question that it is only on the score of cheapness that the meat is bought abroad, and that is on the score of change?

It is not only on the score of cheapness, but it is most difficult to ensure, even if the change the Noble Lord suggests were made, that the meat should really be bred and fed in these islands.

Coronation

asked whether, on the occasion of the Coronation, representatives of Irish Special Reserve or extra reserve battalions will be detailed for duty on the line of route or in the procession itself?

Representative detachments of every unit of the Special Reserve, both in Great Britain and Ireland, will be employed on the line of route on both the 22nd and 23rd June.

Compulsory Service

asked whether the Secretary of State for War will, having regard to his statement in the opening sentences of his preface to the book Compulsory Service that it is important that the materials for forming a judgment on the subject should be before the public, give similar sanction and facilities to those given for the publication of Compulsory Service for the publication of other views of a different complexion held by general officers on the active list?

I have nothing to add to the replies given by the Secretary of State on the 21st instant in reply to questions put by the hon. Member for Taunton.

Officers' Training Corps (Glenalmond And Fettes)

asked if the annual grant for the officers' training corps of Glenalmond and Fettes Colleges has been withheld owing to these two corps having been unable to do more than three days in camp on account of the inclemency of the weather; and, if so, whether he will reconsider his decision?

Yes, but in view of the appeal which has now been received on their behalf, the question of making some special grant is under consideration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is causing considerable friction in the north and that it is a very genuine case?

Yes, I understood it did cause comment. As I say, the matter is under consideration. Six schools did stay out all the time.

I was present, and I may inform the right hon. Gentleman——

Army Manœuvres (Supply Of Horses)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, instead of inviting tenders from contractors and dealers for the supply of draught-horses for the purposes of the annual manœuvres, he will, by advertisement in the local papers or otherwise, give the farmers and other owners of horses in the manœuvre area the opportunity of supplying direct the horses required by the War Office and so save the middleman's profit of from 60 to 80 per cent. now charged upon the taxpayers of the country?

The question is entirely one for the local military authorities, with whose discretion it is best not to interfere.

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will not use his influence with the local authorities to ensure that the farmers should get this legitimate trade?

That is no doubt highly desirable, but I would not like to commit myself to any precise step.

Army Pay Department (Limit Of Service)

asked whether the emergency during which a colonel of the Army Pay Department was retained in the Service, under Article 472, Royal Warrant, after reaching the age for retirement on 5th June, 1909, still exists; if so, what is the nature of that emergency; if not, why is this officer still retained on the active list; and when will he be placed on the retired list?

The re-organisation for which this officer was retained is now practically completed, and he will retire in the course of a few months.

Adjutants Of Yeomanry (Rate Of Pay)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, having regard to the fact that in the case of the adjutants of yeomanry the rate of pay of those appointed before the issue of the Royal Warrant in February last has been confirmed to them, he will now reconsider his decision with reference to adjutants to Territorials and give to those officers appointed before 12th July, 1910, the same rate of pay as those appointed on and after that date?

The reply is in the negative. The case of the Yeomanry Adjutants mentioned is quite distinct from that of the other Territorial Adjutants.

Uganda Protectorate (Jinja-Kakindu Railway)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state what subsidy His Majesty's Government has given to the Uganda Protectorate for the construction of the Jinja-Kakindu Railway; whether he is aware of the fact that for fourteen miles this railway is planned to pass through a district which is infested with tsetse fly and in which the plague of sleeping sickness prevails; and whether the Government have taken any, and, if so, what steps to ascertain the views of the medical officers of Uganda, and of the officers in charge of the Sleeping Sickness Commission in Uganda, as to the adoption of the route through the plague infected area?

The sum provided by His Majesty's Government for the construction of the Jinja-Kakindu Railway is £180,000. With regard to the second part of the hon. Member's question, I understand that the line is being carried higher in the hills for the express purpose of avoiding fly-infested areas in a sleeping sickness belt.

May I ask if the medical officers in Uganda, and especially the medical officers in charge of the Sleeping Sickness Commission have been consulted on this matter?

I could not give details as to whether they have been consulted or not, but if the hon. Member puts a question down I hope I will be able to give him the information.

West Indian Legislatures (Resolutions)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any and, if so, which of the West Indian Legislatures have passed resolutions in favour of closer political union with Canada; and whether he will lay any such resolutions adopted upon the Table of the House?

I have received a telegram stating that such a resolution has been passed by the Legislature of the Bahamas, but I am not yet in possession of the text of the resolution as passed.

I had better receive them first before I consider the question of laying papers.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any information as to when he is likely to receive them?

In the ordinary course of post. As soon as I receive them I will inform the hon. Member.

Art Teachers (Qualifications)

asked why a Syllabus of fourteen pages was issued in 1911 of the qualifications required for the art class teacher's certificate and the art master's certificate, when possible candidates were specifically warned on the front page that to enter upon a series of tests at the present moment might entail a waste of labour?

The Syllabus, which continues for 1911 the regulations already in force, is issued for the benefit of candidates who have already entered upon a series of tests; and who desire to complete that series. It is, of course, hoped that persons who have not yet entered upon a series of tests will pay attention to the advice given them on the front page.

Unemployment (Suggested Permanent Royal Commission)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention had been drawn to the permanent Royal Commission on unemployment that had recently been appointed in Belgium; and whether he would consider the advisability of creating a similar body, representative of trade industry, and labour interests, to deal with questions of unemployment in the United Kingdom?

An account of the Belgian Commission referred to by the hon. Member appeared in the March issue of the "Board of Trade Labour Gazette," of which I am sending him a copy. Their proceedings will be watched with much interest, but I doubt whether, under existing circumstances, there would be any advantage in appointing a similar body in this country.

Labour Exchange Superintendents (Service On Public Bodies)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the superintendents of Labour Exchanges were allowed to contest for seats for town councils, boards of guardians, or co-operative society management; if not, would he state what instructions had been issued to the superintendents bearing on this matter?

Officers of Labour Exchanges are informed in their Letter of Appointment that they are subject to the same Regulations with regard to membership of local authorities as Civil servants in the Board of Trade, and that, in addition, they will not be permitted without the sanction of the Board of Trade to stand as candidates in any public election, or to fill any post for which a public election is necessary. No such sanction has been given, but in a Few cases officers who held such posts at the time of their appointment, and had only a short term of office to run have been temporarily exempted from this Regulation.

Have any applications been made, other than those referred to, in which permission has been refused?

Railway Servants (Wages And Price Of Food)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he was aware that in the week in December of each of the years 1899 to 1909 inclusive, upon which the chief British railway companies reported the actual cash earnings of their servants, in four principal departments, to the Board of Trade, the average earnings, as distinguished from rates of pay, per week per man were stationary, at or about 25s., within a few pence; if, in the same period, the retail prices of food, as tested by a properly weighted index number, for London, rose in the period named by over 12 per cent.; and, if so, whether, seeing that the actual average, real or commodity, earnings of British railway servants fell considerably in 1899–1909, he would direct the attention of railway companies to these facts?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by the President of the Board of Trade on 23rd March to his previous question on the same subject, in which it is pointed out that the figures quoted cannot be used to compare the relative rise in rates of wages and retail prices.

Is it denied that the real earnings of these men fell considerably in the period?

That would involve giving the reply to a question which the hon. Gentleman himself asked only a few days ago, and it would be wasting the time of Parliament to repeat it.

Is it not a very serious matter that the earnings of a considerable number of men should fall in this way in a period of ten years?

How is it that the food of the people costs 12 per cent. more under a Liberal than under a Conservative Government?

Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve (Surgeons)

asked when the new scheme for surgeons in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve would be issued; and whether the scheme would grant them rank equal to that of surgeons in the Territorial Force?

The new scheme for medical officers of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve will be issued shortly. Under this scheme these officers will, as is the case at present, rank with medical officers of the Territorial Force of corresponding rank according to the dates of appointment in their respective ranks.

Naval Construction (Armoured Vessels)

asked why, since the sum taken for each unit was practically double the amount allotted to the "King George V." and "Centurion," the armoured vessels to be built at Devonport and Portsmouth under the Estimates of 1911–12 were not to be laid down until the end of December, 1911, or January, 1912?

The provision included in the Estimates for 1910–11 for the "King George V." and "Centurion" was made on the basis of these vessels being laid down on 31st January, 1911. The provision for the two dockyard vessels of the year 1911–12 is on the basis of their being laid down in December, 1911. The hon. Gentleman will therefore understand that it will be possible for us to spend more within the financial year upon these two last-named vessels than upon the vessels to which he refers belonging to the 1910–11 programme.

If the "King George V." and "Centurion" were laid down on 16th January, a fortnight in advance of the advertised time, has additional financial provision been made?

Stokers (Promotions To Warrant Rank)

asked how many stokers had been promoted to warrant rank since the institution of such rank?

Five mechanicians have been promoted to the rank of warrant mechanician since the institution of that rank. Three more will be promoted on the 1st April.

May we take it for granted that no stokers have been promoted to warrant rank?

Is it any great encouragement to stokers that since this rank was created in 1904 only five have been promoted?

Obsolete Warships (Conditions Of Sale)

asked whether there had been any, and, if so, what, modification of the conditions of sale of old and obsolete warships since July, 1910; and if it was intended to make a further modification in the conditions of sale in the case of the "Nile" and "Trafalgar," advertised for auction on 4th April next?

There are four sets of conditions of sale of obsolete ships. Ships sold under what are known as "Conditions A" must be wholly broken up in the United Kingdom. Ships sold under Conditions A—as modified and brought into use for the sale of H.M.S. "Howe" (aged twenty-one years) in October, 1910—must be wholly broken up, but only certain specified work need be done in the United Kingdom. Ships sold under Conditions B must be wholly broken up, but not necessarily in the United Kingdom. Ships sold under Conditions C are sold without restriction. It was proposed to sell the "Nile" (aged twenty years) and the "Trafalgar" (aged twenty-one years) by auction on 4th April under Conditions B, but since that decision was arrived at it has been found impracticable to prepare these two ships for sale as early as was expected, and they have therefore been withdrawn from the advertisement of the forthcoming sale.

What proportion of ships broken up have been broken up in the United Kingdom?

Political Pensions (Review By House Of Commons)

asked the First Lord of the Treasury whether he would take steps to transfer political pensions from the Consolidated Fund to the Supply Services in order that, like almost all other pensions, they might be open to the review of the House of Commons?

Before the Prime Minister replies, may I ask whether political pensions, including the pension of Lord Balfour of Burleigh, will come under the condition of Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Referendum Bill?

The pensions in question are charged upon and payable out of the Consolidated Fund under Section 8 of the Act 32 and 33 Vict. c. 60, and their transfer to moneys provided by Parliament could only be effected by legislation, which I do not see my way at present to propose.

Is there any reason why the pensions of admirals, generals, and working-class old age pensioners should be subject to annual review in this House, while we are precluded on all normal occasions from discussing these very unpopular political pensions?

Plural Voting Bill

asked if it was the intention of the Government to introduce a Plural Voting Bill this Session?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on this matter yesterday.

In view of the public approval recently given by the Leader of the Opposition to the principle of one man one vote, will the Prime Minister consider the advisability of passing this Bill as a non-controversial measure?

Dewsbury Schools Scheme

asked the Prime Minister if he has observed a Notice of Motion standing in the name of the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool relating to the scheme promoted by the Board of Education in respect of certain schools at Dewsbury; and if he can allot suitable time for the Motion praying His Majesty to disallow the scheme?

The Motion in question can be taken any night after eleven o'clock.

Examination Of Estimates

asked the Prime Minister, whether he is yet in a position to announce the decision of the Government as to the appointment of a Standing Committee to examine Estimates prior to their presentation to the House?

This matter is still under consideration with special reference to the practice which prevails in foreign legislatures.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the claim of this House to be paramount in finance would be strengthened in proportion to the opportunities we get to consider it?

Supply (Allotted Days)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that every year many millions of pounds are automatically voted without any discussion, he will consider the desirableness of amending the Standing Orders by the addition of ten allotted days to Supply?

No, Sir; I do not see my way to propose such an addition to the allotted days.

Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that shortly before this Government came into office, addressing his own Constituents, he said that this system amounted to "a creeping paralysis of the Parliamentary organism," and pledged himself that it would be one of the first duties of the Liberal Government to alter it?

Will the Prime Minister consider the desirableness of appointing a Finance Committee of business men in this House, based either on a scheme of his own or on the Finance Committees of the County Councils?

Fishery Questions

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention had been called to the facts that the Development Commissioners have appointed a committee to advise on fishery questions; that the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries considered that its constitution gave no adequate representation to English and Welsh fishery interests, and made representations to the Development Commissioners accordingly; and that the Development Commissioners have given no effect to those representations; and whether he will take steps to see that in fishery matters the expressed views of the Government department in charge of fishery matters carry their proper weight in other departments of the Government whore fishery interests are concerned?

In reply to the first part of the question, I beg to refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Grimsby on the 14th ultimo, giving the composition of the Committee. In reply to the remaining parts of the question, I would refer to the numerous answers, exceeding ten in number, which I have given to questions put by him in the course of this Session.

Invalidity Insurance Bill

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, who stated that the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department was busy drafting the Sickness Insurance Bill; and whether he can say when a statement from the Government may be expected to be made in this House?

My attention has not been called to the speech in question. I am not yet able to fix a date for the introduction of the Government's proposals.

Justices And Clubs

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received from a number of petty sessional divisions resolutions passed by the justices asking for the control and power of restriction of drinking clubs; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?

Resolutions to the effect indicated in the question from a considerable number of benches of magistrates (mainly borough benches) have been received in the Home Office. The matter is one which must form an integral part of any measure of Licensing Reform, and Part IV. of the Licensing Bill of 1908 was devoted to it.

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen a copy of the Committee of Clubs Bill, and has not the principle of the Bill received approval?

I am afraid I have not yet seen a copy, but I will be very glad to look at it.

Is it not a fact that the necessity for these refreshment clubs has arisen entirely owing to the restriction on public-houses?

Trawling For Mines

asked whether trawlers and fishermen are to be enrolled at Grimsby for the purpose of trawling for mines; whether a subsidy or annual retainer is to be paid to the owners of the trawlers and to the fishermen; and whether it is proposed to give trawler owners and fishermen of ports other than Grimsby an opportunity of earning the subsidy or retainer?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, annual retainers will be paid to the skippers and men of the trawlers, but no subsidy will be paid to the owners. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.

Floating Docks

asked whether, in the event of one of the floating docks now under construction being removed to Rosyth, the Admiralty propose to replace the dock moved by another capable of containing a "Dreadnought"?

The large floating docks now under construction are not due for completion until late in the year. There is no present intention of removing either of the floating docks to Rosyth.

Did not the First Lord of the Admiralty in his statement mention the fact that possibly one of these docks would be removed to Rosyth?

That is a fact. The First Lord of the Admiralty said on 16th March that possibly one or other will be ultimately removed to Rosyth. What I have said now is perfectly consistent with the fact that there is no present intention of removing either of the floating docks to Rosyth.

Portsmouth Dockyard (Engineering Mechanics)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that four engineering mechanics in the new factory at Portsmouth are rated at 34s. 6d. per week, although all other engineering mechanics, Devonport included, are rated at 36s.; and whether he will favourably consider the raising of these four men to the level of the others?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, except that the 34s. 6d. rate is not confined to the Portsmouth Factory. It is also in operation at Devonport. It should be noted that the men receiving 34s. 6d. are on the established list, their rate corresponding with the standard rate of 36s. paid to hired men. It is not proposed to take any special steps to advance the wages of the men in question.

Dockyard Hired Writers

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether paragraph 13 of Clause VI. of Admiralty Letter, dated 13th April, 1907, A. 1806, which states that hired writers will be entered as required in the dockyards either by selection from boy writers who have reached the age of nineteen, or by appointment from a general list of successful candidates at an educational examination to be held periodically at the respective yards as occasion demands, is to be considered as no longer operative; and, if not, will he state why Mr. Sydney Taylor has been entered as a hired writer in the Naval Store Department, Sheerness, without being called upon to pass a competitive examination for this position?

The paragraph referred to is still operative. In the instance given by the hon. Member, however, there was no boy writer available for promotion, and there was no general list at Sheerness, no examination ever having been necessary in that yard, as boy writers have always hitherto been available. A special examination for one vacancy would not have been justified, especially as the whole matter of the system of examination for writers is under revision. Accordingly, the place was filled by direct appointment, the applicant presenting himself with thoroughly good qualifications.

Coastguard (Allowance)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether he is aware that for the last fifty years men of the coastguard have received an allowance of 1s. a day for food; whether he is aware that the cost of living has increased considerably during that period; and whether he can see his way to increase this allowance?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, except that the allowance is at the rate of 1s. 4d. a day. This allowance is granted as the equivalent of Service victualling, which costs the Crown about 10d. a head, and no reason is seen for any alteration. In certain isolated cases, where the cost of living is exceptionally high, special arrangements are made to relieve the men in the matter of expense.

Are not the coastguard men the only men in the Service who have not had an increase of subsistence allowance?

I cannot say whether that is so or not; I will look into it. But what I do say is that in certain isolated cases where the cost of living is exceptional we do make special arrangements in order to enable the men to meet the increased cost.

Scottish Deer Forests

asked the Lord Advocate whether the last Return of deer forests in the crofting counties, showing 2,958,490 acres in forest assessed at £132,041 per annum, was published in 1908; and whether, in view of the increased emigration from Scotland he will cause a more recent Return to be prepared and printed?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Government are fully alive to the situation referred to by my hon. Friend, but they do not think that the advantage of making a further return after such a short interval since the last would be commensurate to the labour required for it.

Would the right hon. Gentleman see that we have completed returns giving the names of the owners and the size of the holdings in these deer forests?

Scottish Universities (Extra Grant)

asked whether the Government propose to appropriate only £20,000 extra Grant to the Scottish Universities next year; and, if so, why the full extra grant of £42,000, as recommended by the Elgin Commission, is not to be appropriated?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave to a question by the hon. Member for Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities on 27th March, 1911.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any answer as to the recommendation made by the Commission?

I hold that point covered by the answer I gave to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow.

School Board Election (Stirlingshire)

asked the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been called to the refusal of the returning officer in the school board election for the parish of Balfron, Stirlingshire, to accept the nomination of Mr. Robert Sewell on the ground that, as ex-headmaster of the public school, he draws a pension from the funds of the Board; and whether he proposes to take any steps to test the legality of this refusal?

My attention has been called to the matter referred to by my hon. Friend. It is not in my power, or in the power of the Departments I represent, to take any steps to test the legality of the refusal of the returning officer to accept the nomination of the gentleman named.

Is there any reason why the receipt of a pension should disqualify for a seat on a school board, when it does not disqualify for this House?

Would the hon. Gentleman say who is responsible for the instructions given to this returning officer?

Experiments In Afforestation (Scotland)

asked how many acres of the area acquired by the Government at Inverliver, Argyleshire, for experiments in afforestation have in fact been planted with young trees; what progress has been made in preparing the ground not already planted; and whether the Government receive any grazing or shooting rental from the part of the estate where development is not actually in process?

About 310 acres of the Inverliver Estate have already been planted, and a further fifty acres, which have been fenced in, drained, and cleared of bracken are being planted this spring. Preparations are at present being made for enclosing a further 180 acres, which will be drained and cleared during the summer, and planted next season. A nursery of about seven acres for raising plants for the new plantations has also been formed and partially sown with seeds or planted with seedlings. Grazing and shooting rents are received for that part of the estate where forestry development is not actually in progress.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how many crofters have been cleared off this Government ground?

I cannot say from memory, but I went up there last year and I imagine none.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the nature of the planting that is being pursued?

Imported French Milk

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has any information showing that the fresh milk and cream which is imported into this country from France is produced under restrictions and conditions similar to those imposed upon dairy farmers in England?

Inquiries were made in 1908 as to the methods adopted at the creamery in France from which the bulk of the fresh milk which has been imported into this country appears to be obtained and from which also a considerable quantity of cream is imported. The results of these inquiries appeared generally satisfactory, as also the results of examination of certain samples which have since then been taken in London.

Small-Pox And Vaccination

asked whether, since the recent outbreak of small-pox, the number of persons vaccinated has increased beyond the average of the previous four years in the following towns: London, Manchester, Glasgow, and Plymouth; whether in the above towns parents who had applied for certificates of exemption have, since the outbreak, had their children vaccinated; and what are the respective numbers of such cases in the above towns?

No figures as to vaccination and exemption certificates since the commencement of the present small-pox outbreak are yet available.

In view of the outbreak, will the right hon. Gentleman take any steps to recommend vaccination?

I do not consider that any further recommendation is necessary than the circulars periodically issued by the officers of the Local Government Board, and the notification that appears on the general form handed to parents when they come to register their children.

Outdoor Relief (Report Of Departmental Committee)

asked whether Article 2 (1) of the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Orders Relating to the Administration of Relief would, if embodied in an Order, compel the guardians to refuse out-relief to persons of sixty-five years and upwards who, though suffering from no physical disability, are by reason of their age unable to obtain employment?

Boards of guardians are not at present empowered to give outdoor relief on the ground that the applicant has attained the age of sixty-five years. Under Article I. of the Prohibitory Order, which is in force in 528 of the 644 Unions in England and Wales, boards of guardians are precluded from giving outdoor relief to the able-bodied, except in certain specified cases. The Article in the draft Order to which the Noble Lord refers is substantially the same, except that it expressly allows out-relief to be given in the case of infirmity arising from old age.

Pwllheli Workhouse

asked whether, in the Pwllheli workhouse, there are seventy-nine inmates including twenty-nine children, also vagrants to the amount of about one hundred a month; whether there are only three attendants at this workhouse; if so, whether he has satisfied himself that under the circumstances the children are properly attended to; and what steps he is prepared to take to enforce a more humane administration on the guardians?

I have recently received a special report from one of my inspectors with regard to this workhouse giving me the facts generally as stated in the question. I understand that the guardians have recently appointed a boarding-out committee to deal with as many children as possible, but the whole situation is engaging my attention, and I am in communication with the guardians respecting it.

English And Welsh Fishery Interests

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture what steps, having regard to the fact that the Development Commissioners have given no effect to the representations of the Board as to the constitution of the advisory committee on fishery matters, he proposes to take to ensure that English and Welsh fishery interests shall have due consideration in matters coming before the advisory committee?

The Board propose to address further a communication to the Commissioners on this subject.

Small Holdings

asked whether the Dorset County Council have only placed forty-four out of 196 applicants for small holdings on the land?

Yes, only forty-four directly, but, indirectly, in addition ninety-four through private landowners.

Would the hon. Baronet kindly inform the hon. Member for Burnley officially of the facts he made statements to the contrary?

Does the hon. Baronet consider that the placing of small holders on the land by private owners is in fact carrying out the Small Holdings Act?

Is my hon. Friend aware that the tenant does not obtain the same security of tenure?

To my own knowledge some small holders have themselves asked county councils to allow them to rent their holdings direct from land owners.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in one case the action of the county council in referring small holders to private land owners has had the effect of breaking up a co-operative society formed for the purpose of carrying out the Act?

I am not aware of that. If my hon. Friend will give me the particulars I shall inquire into it.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept the view that small holders under private landowners would not have the same security of tenure as under county councils, and if not to what section of the Act he refers; and is it a fact that under private landowners the rents are lower?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether the attention of the Board has been drawn to the fact that a proposal of the county council of Buckinghamshire to supply two applicants with small holdings, by putting in force a compulsory order for fourteen acres of land, was thwarted by the owner thereof letting thirty acres, including the fourteen acres, to his son; whether the owner is a member of the council; and whether the Board will adopt the same attitude as they did on a similar occasion at Rainham and proceed with the compulsory acquisition of these fourteen acres?

The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the affirmative. The Board understand that the county council have been advised that in the circumstances it is not competent for them to make a compulsory order for the acquisition of the land in question, and it is not possible, therefore, for the Board to take any steps for the purpose. But the council are under an obligation to satisfy the requirements of the applicants for the small holdings, and we shall at once take steps to ascertain what further action the council propose to take in the matter.

Where it has been shown that a deliberate evasion of the Act has been attempted, is the Board prepared to take steps, irrespective of what the county councils may do?

The Board of Agriculture have no locus standi in the matter, but they have informed the Buckinghamshire County Council that if they take action they will indemnify them in the matter of costs.

Trustees Of Local Charities

asked the hon. Member for the Stroud Division, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether they have authorised trustees of local charities to evade their responsibilities under the Finance Act by insisting upon leaseholders paying the Reversion Duty upon the renewal of a lease; and whether such insistence is in accordance with the practice of the Department?

The Charity Commissioners have not authorised trustees of charities to insist upon leaseholders paying the Reversion Duty upon the renewal of a lease. Such insistence would not be in accordance with the practice of the Department. If the hon. Member is referring to a particular case, and will mention it to me, I will inquire into it.

Telegraph Facilities (Whitehaven)

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention had been called to the absence of a telegraph office at Whitehaven railway station, Furness terminus; and, in the interests of the inhabitants and travelling public, whether he will consider the advisability of opening an office at an early date?

I will ask the company if they will undertake telegraph business at the Whitehaven Railway Station (Furness).

Scale Of Postal Wages (Scotland)

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the action of his Department in fixing wages maxima upon a lower standard of living for Scotland as compared with the rest of the United Kingdom, and to the views recently expressed by the Secretary to the Post Office to the representatives of the Staffs' Associations, that the separate standard was justified on the ground of the Scotsman's predilection for small tenement dwellings and an oatmeal dietary; and, if so, what action he proposes to take to make the Scottish standard of wages equivalent to that of England?

The cost of living standard used for purposes of classification of towns for scales of pay was fixed by the Board of Trade for England and Ireland on the basis of inquiries made at a number of towns in those countries, and for Scotland on the basis of inquiries made at a number of Scotch towns. Representations made by the Staff Associations to the Secretary to the Post Office against this method of fixing the standard in Scotland are under consideration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary said that Scotsmen are usually fed upon porridge?

Postal Facilities (Fortwilliam And Garvan)

asked the Postmaster-General if he has received a petition, and, if so, when, from or on behalf of the inhabitants on the south side of Lochiel asking for a daily delivery of letters and papers between Fortwilliam and Garvan; and if he can arrange to have a six days' delivery of letters and papers, instead of the four days' delivery, between Fortwilliam and Garvan?

I am having inquiry made in the matter, and I will communicate the result to the Noble Lord.

British-Made Paper

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the statement made by His Majesty's Government that the whole of the paper supplied to the Government Departments, amounting to £250,000, is British made, he will state the clause in the contracts binding all contractors to supply British-made paper?

It is the established practice of His Majesty's Stationery Office to restrict to Mills in the United Kingdom invitations to tender for the supplies of paper for the Public Service. Clause (4) (a) of the conditions of contract reads: "All papers delivered shall be manufactured on the premises of the Contractor.."

Sir Francis Hopwood

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether Sir Francis Hopwood has ceased to be a member of the Development Commission, and, if so, as from what date; also what amount he has received by way of salary as Commissioner since his appointment?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Sir Francis Hopwood has received salary as a Commissioner since January 1st, 1911, at the rate of £3,000 a year.

Acetate Of Lime And Acetone

asked whether any complaints have been received by the Office of Woods and Forests, or by the Treasury, from manufacturers in the neighbourhood with regard to the proposal by the Government to carry on in the Forest of Dean the process of the destructive distillation of wood and the manufacture thereby of charcoal, naphtha, methylated spirit, ethyl, alcohol, acetate of lime, and other allied. products and byproducts of such distillation; and whether the Government will consider the advisability of purchasing acetate of lime from local manufacturers for conversion into acetone, rather than of entering into competition with them, with the possible result of the extinction of their business?

No such complaints as are referred to in this question have been received by the Office of Woods and Forests. The abject of the proposed works is to utilise produce which at present is almost unmarketable, and of which large quantities are annually available in Dean Forest and the adjoining woodlands. As it is not at present proposed to manufacture acetone in the Forest of Dean, the question of purchasing acetate of lime from local manufacturers for conversion into acetone does not arise there.

Why is not the Government prepared to manufacture acetone when it is required for national purposes?

The hon. Member is not well informed, I understand, as to what is required. It is acetate of lime that is required, and not acetone.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that acetone is a further product of acetate, and is it not that that is required?

asked whether the Government have altogether abandoned the idea of manufacturing acetone in the Forest of Dean; and, if so, whether, in view of the fact that this necessary factor in the manufacture of cordite for our national requirements is now obtained almost wholly from other countries with whom we may be at war hereafter, the Government will reconsider their decision?

The idea of manufacturing acetone in the Forest of Dean has not been altogether abandoned, but, acting on the best advice, the Commissioner considers it better in the first instance to stop short at the production of acetate of lime. When the manufacture of acetate has had a fair trial the question of manufacturing acetone can be further considered, if desirable.

Aliens (Vaccination)

asked whether aliens are examined by the medical inspector on landing to see whether they have been vaccinated; and whether any steps are taken to secure the vaccination of aliens who are found not to have been vaccinated?

This is not a matter which conies within the duties of a medical inspector under the Aliens Act.

Sessions House, Clerkenwell (Witnesses)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state what accommodation is provided for witnesses at Clerkenwell?

My right hon. Friend understands that the question refers to the Sessions House at Clerkenwell; but two years ago the North London Sessions were transferred from Clerkenwell to Newington. One of the chief reasons for the transfer was the inadequate accommodation for witnesses at Clerkenwell.

Census Of Religious Establishments

asked, in view of the fact that the Census schedules will be filled up by the heads of religious establishments of all denominations giving particulars as to the inmates of these establishments, he will undertake that a Return shall be prepared from these figures showing the total number, locality, and number of inmates, male and female, respectively, of each of such religious establishments of each denomination?

I understand from the Registrar-General that the suggestion of the hon. Member is not a practicable one.

Akbar Reformatory

asked whether Mr. Adam, the principal witness at the inquiry into the management of the Akbar Reformatory, has complained of the manner in which the evidence of himself and his witnesses was taken; and whether he has further complained that such evidence has been distorted in the Report recently issued; and, if so, what action does he propose to take in the matter?

Since the question was put on the Paper, a communication has been received from Mr. Adam complaining that his evidence in the recent inquiry at Heswall School had been "distorted." My right hon. Friend can find no warrant for such an assertion. Mr. Adam himself acknowledged, at the close of his examination, that he had received a fair hearing. My right hon. Friend does not propose to take any further action in the matter.

Does Mr. Adam state in his letter that he was astounded at the version of his evidence contained in the hon. Gentleman's Report?

Yes; but I cannot charge my memory whether he said he was astounded or not.

Was the Return prepared by the hon. Gentleman himself or prepared for him?

asked the right hon. Gentleman whether his attention has been called to the fact that on page 7 of the Report upon the Akbar Reformatory School it is stated that it was freely acknowledged that the full punishment of eighteen strokes with a birch, or in most cases anything over eight strokes of the cane, would result in the cutting of the skin and the necessity for subsequent antiseptic dressing, and that antiseptic dressings were always applied in order to prevent poisoning; whilst on page 19 it is stated that no boy could be found who had been medically treated after the caning s; and what explanation he can furnish of this apparent discrepancy?

There would appear to be no discrepancy in these statements. I could find no evidence of boys being medically treated as a result of corporal punishments inflicted at Heswall School. One of the under-officers provided antiseptic dressing in any cases where the skin was cut or bruised.

I beg to give notice that at the earliest opportunity I shall move that this Report be remitted back to the Home Office for revision by a competent and impartial officer.

Court Of Appeal (Reversals Of Judgments)

asked the Attorney-General whether it would be practicable to prepare a Return showing the number of reversals by the Court of Appeal of the judgments of courts of first instance during the past ten years, in order that the public might be made aware of the relative competence of the judges of such courts?

It would not be practicable to prepare such a return as is suggested. Its preparation would involve considerable expenditure of time and labour, and, when completed, would necessarily be misleading, inasmuch as a Judge of first instance is often reversed, although he has decided strictly in accordance with the law laid down by a court of co-ordinate or superior jurisdiction. Moreover, the decision of the Court of Appeal reversing a judgment of a Judge of first instance is itself sometimes reversed in the House of Lords, and the decision of the Judge of first instance is thus restored.

Does the hon. and learned Gentleman think there would be any difficulty in adding to the annual volume of official statistics a column showing the names of the judges whose decisions have been reversed by the Court of Appeal?

It would be quite useless to do that unless you went into particulars as to why the decisions were reversed.

I asked the hon. and learned Gentleman whether it would be practicable, not whether it would be useless. That is an argumentative question?

It would be practicable if you devoted enough time and expenditure to it, but the result would be useless.

Development And Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909

asked if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that local authorities are in considerable doubt as to their position in regard to the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, particularly in reference to the nature of schemes of development under the very wide provisions of Section 1 of the Act, since they have nothing to guide them with regard to what sort of proposals would be likely to receive favourable consideration by the Commissioners and by the Treasury, and they are naturally reluctant to incur expenditure in preparing definite plans for such things as local transport improvement, land reclamation, experimental farms, and other developments obviously covered by the Act if the Commissioners have no prospect of being in a position to make a grant in the near future; and if he will therefore cause to be prepared and issued to public authorities a memorandum in explanation of the Act itself and of the nature of such national and local schemes as the Commissioners, with due regard to available funds, have in contemplation, or in connection with which they are likely to be able to give practical assistance?

The Chairman, Vice-Chairman and staff of the Development Commission will always be most ready to see representatives of local authorities informally on the subject of proposed applications and will give them all possible assistance and advice. Such assistance appears to me a better course to adopt than the issue of a general memorandum, which could not meet the requirements of individual proposals.

Earl Manvers Court (Purchase Of Copyhold Property)

asked the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that, on the purchase of copyhold property in the court of Earl Manvers, at Crowle and district, worth £200 and of a rental value of £10, the fine on admittance to the court roll is one and a-half year's rent, viz., £15, and also the steward's fee of £3; and that, to enfranchise the same property, the cost is four years' rental, or £40, with the steward's fee £7, making a total of £65 with fine on admittance; and if he will take steps to bring in a measure to reduce these payments to the lord of the manor?

I will call my right hon. Friend's attention to the figures cited in the question.

Lion Brewery Company (House Of Lords Decision)

asked whether, as a result of the recent decision of the House of Lords in the case of the Lion Brewery Company, an advantage is given to the brewer, who is allowed to deduct from his assessment for Income Tax the amount of his contribution towards the compensation fund in the case of a tied house; whether such advantage does not apply to the; private owner of the free house; and whether the Government will take steps to remedy this difference of treatment?

The payments made by brewers to the compensation fund are deducted as a trading expense in computing their profits as brewers for assessment under Schedule D, when it is found that they hold and let the tied houses solely for the purposes of their business. A similar deduction is allowed in the case of an owner-occupier of a free house.

Land Valuation

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can say what has been the cost of hiring or purchasing buildings or offices for the purpose of carrying out the land valuation required by the Finance Act, 1909?

The amount of rent paid by the Inland Revenue in respect of their valuers' offices for the current financial year is about £6,750.

French Automatic Rifle

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the French War Office has adopted after trials a satisfactory type of automatic rifle, he will continue experiments on automatic rifles in this country?

I presume the hon. Baronet is alluding to the statement in the French Chamber that although it was not intended to make any change of Infantry armament at present, the experiments carried out by their Government would enable them, if necessary, to manufacture automatic rifles at once. Trials with automatic rifles are being continued by the War Office.

Remounts (Train Time-Table)

asked whether any railway company has been approached by the General Staff with the view of working out a train time-table for collection of remounts and concentration of troops on mobilisation?

The arrangements necessary for moving troops, horses, and material by rail on mobilisation are constantly under the consideration of the military authorities, and are confidential. I cannot, therefore, supply the hon. Baronet with any detailed information on the subject.

Business Of The House

Will the Prime Minister give us a sketch of the course of business, and what he proposes to take on Friday next?

On Thursday, after the Revenue Bill is concluded, we shall proceed with the House Letting (Scotland) Bill, and the Second Reading of the Army (Annual) Bill.

On Friday we shall take the Second Reading of the Shops Bill.

When will the Home Secretary introduce the measure for which he asked the special consideration of the House the other day, dealing with the expenses of the military when sent in aid of the police?

I ask because I think this is an opportunity for the Home Secretary, who asked for the special indulgence of the House to deal with the matter.

May I remind the Prime Minister that during the all-night sitting the Financial Secretary to the Treasury gave a pledge that the Government would take no Bills before the 31st March, and under those circumstances I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman cannot reconsider his decision?

I was not here during the all-night sitting, but I am bound, of course, by anything that took place on that occasion. I was not aware of that pledge. I am not complaining in the least, but I thought that, after the arrangement which was made last night, it would be convenient to take those two Bills. I was not aware that there was any obstacle in the way. If a pledge has been given it shall be observed, and in that case we shall have to put down Supply. In any case, we shall take the Shops Bill on Friday.

As there will be three hours at the disposal of the House on Thursday, can the right hon. Gentleman devote that time to the Second Reading of the Irish Labourers' Bill?

I am afraid the same objection applies. It seems the pledge was not to take anything until after the 31st March. I think, however, we might be released from that pledge by a general understanding.

Seeing that there are such a large number of the supporters of the Government desirous of discussing the Revenue Bill, can the right hon. Gentleman see his way to give those extra three hours to that measure?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of putting down the Board of Agriculture Vote, as a great many hon. Members desire to discuss small holdings?

Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to suppose that the House of Lords will not gladly enter on the discussion of the Consolidated Fund Bill at 11 p.m. on Thursday so that we may have the extra three hours here.

We made an arrangement upon this question last night, and we must not go back upon it. I will consider my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Divisions

May I ask you, Sir, whether an incident which occurred at the door of the Division Lobby last night has been reported to you? The order, "Lock the door," was given by the Chairman when a very large number of Members were pressing to go into the Lobby, and it was only by physical force they were able to record their votes in this House. May I ask whether it would not be right to consider some modification of the rule so that in a Division such as that last night in which nearly all the Members desire to vote in the same Lobby, the moment at which "Lock the door" is called does not arrive before Members of this House have time to get into the Lobby?

I was not aware of the difficulty. It had not been officially reported to me. I think the difficulty really arises from the fact that all Members seek to enter by the Narrow Way.

One other Member took and subscribed the Oath.

NEW MEMBER SWORN.—Andrew Bonar Law, esquire, for South-West Lancashire (Bootle Division).

Bills Presented

Licensing (Scotland) Bill

"To amend the provisions of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, so far as relating to Clubs," presented by Mr. MUNRO-FERGUSON; supported by Mr. Eugene Wason, Mr. Watt, Mr. Pringle, and Mr. MacCallum Scott; to be read a second time upon Monday next.

Pensions (Colonial Governors) Bill

"To consolidate and amend the Law relating to the payment of Pensions to Colonial Governors," presented by Mr. HOBHOUSE; to be read a second time upon Monday next.

Money Lenders Bill

"To amend the Law relating to money lenders," presented by Mr. ATHERLEV JONES; supported by Mr. Carr-Gomm, Mr. Frederick Edwin Smith, Mr. O'Grady, and Mr. Ponsonby; to be read a second time upon Monday next.

Revenue Bill

Considered in Committee ( Progress, 27th March).

(IN THE COMMITTEE.)

[Mr. EMMOTT in the Chair.]

New Clause—(Amendment Of S 26 (1) Of The Principal Act)

"Notwithstanding anything in Sub-section one of Section twenty-six of the principal Act the Commissioners may, on the request of the owner of any pieces of land which are contiguous, value those pieces of

land together for the purposes of that Act, although those pieces of land are under separate occupation, if they are satisfied that in the special circumstances of the case it is expedient to do so; and any such valuation may be made under this provision, although any of the pieces of land have been valued before the passing of this Act, if the request for the valuation under this provision is made by the owner of the land within three months after the passing of this Act, and in that case any valuation previously made shall be of no effect."—[ Mr. Hobhouse.]

I beg to move, after the word "contiguous" ["pieces of land which are contiguous"] to insert the words "and which do not in the aggregate exceed ten acres in extent."

If my Amendment is accepted, the material words of the Clause will read, "The Commissioners may, on the request of the owner of any pieces of land which are contiguous, and which do not in the aggregate exceed ten acres in extent, value those pieces of land together, although those pieces of land are under separate occupation." The object of the original Clauses, adopted by the Government on the suggestion of hon. Members opposite, was quite clearly stated last night by the hon. and learned Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave). It was to meet a particular case which he illustrated by an estate within his own knowledge in Paddington. There was a street of houses, the leases of which were falling in, and he complained that the Government valuers came down and valued each particular house site as the lease fell in. These sites were subject to certain easements depending upon the other houses upon the same estate, and by this method of valuation an unduly low value was set upon these isolated house plots. He very rightly urged that these easements reduced the value of particular plots of land and improved the collective value of the whole estate. The whole of the site value given in the new Domesday Book, therefore, was incorrect, incomplete, and ought to be put on a correct basis by allowing the landlord to take the whole estate into consideration. It was to remedy that difficulty that this Clause was introduced. I entirely agree with the hon. Member that it is desirable that a street of houses where there are special easements of that description should be valued as a whole and not individually. You will get a more correct value of the estate in that way. If that be the object, and the only object, of the hon. and learned Gentleman, it would be entirely met by the new Clause as amended by my Amendment. My Amendment does not affect that in the least; none of these streets of houses exceed ten acres in extent, and therefore they will be able to get the fair value of the land in towns whether there are streets of houses or whether there are open spaces.

4.0 P.M.

We object to the Clause as originally put down by the Government, because in addition to meeting that particular difficulty it injures the complete valuation of the property. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."] I do appeal to hon. Members opposite. I am not trying to obstruct the course of the debate; I am merely anxious to get this put right. If this Clause is allowed to stand as it is it not only affects urban land but suburban and country land as well. It will enable owners of large agricultural estates to average down the value of land along a road or near a station by taking in all the purely agricultural land of low value at the back with the valuable land, and thereby getting the total value below £50 per acre, so as to avoid the ½d. tax on undeveloped land. That is a very serious thing. You are valuing by 1,000 acres instead of by field, by farm, or by plot, and, in doing that, you get an absolutely untrue value in the new Domesday Book. I do ask hon. Members to listen to what I have to say. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide; divide."] This valuation is one which affects us on this side of the House very considerably. I should like to ask the Noble Lord the Member for Thirsk (Viscount, Helmsley)——[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide."]

I wish to emphasise the fact that it is essential to get a correct valuation. We want it to be a genuine one, and not faked, so that big landlords owning many farms may not be able to average their land down to a figure which is not really representative of its value, but which has been averaged down by taking large areas into account. This clause as it stands would enable big landlords to evade the ½d. tax. You may have a road on one side of which there will be a big landlord with several thousand acres of land. He will get the value of that land brought down below the £50 limit by including the whole acreage. On the other side you will have the small owner of from three to five acres, who will not be able to average the value down, and he consequently will be called upon to pay the Undeveloped Land Tax, which his rich neighbour opposite will escape. That is obviously unfair.

There is more in it than that. A great many Members on this side of the House, including the Labour party, have looked upon this valuation as being of enormous value from the point of view of the purchase of land by local authorities. They consider that if local authorities found it necessary to purchase land compulsorily they would be able to refer to the valuation and to base upon it the price which the landlord will receive for the land. Nowadays, when the local authority wants to put up a new school what happens? You have expert witnesses on one side saying that the land is worth £100, while those on the other side swear it is worth £2,000. Between those witnesses the arbitrators come to some sort of decision which probably mulcts the local authority in ten times the proper value of the land. We had hoped that when once we had got this valuation the arbitrator in these cases would have something definite to go upon, and he would be able to dispense with expert witnesses and would say, "Here is a valuation, either made or approved by the landlord: we found the value he put upon the land is £100 per acre, and we consider that is all he shall get for it." Now, when you have this new Clause——

Is the hon. Gentleman entitled to discuss the whole Clause on his Amendment, especially as we have such a very short time at our disposal?

This is an important question; we are going to let the landlord average the value of his land down below £50 per acre, and we are anxious to provide a valuation which would enable judges and arbitrators to compel the landlords to accept a reasonable price for their land instead of the exaggerated prices they now demand. I submit that that directly arises out of my Amendment. We have here the means of protecting the local authorities in this country from the extortions of landlords.

That is all very general. I want to ask the hon. Member to apply himself to the question of ten acres. That is the point.

My Amendment provides that everything over ten acres shall be excluded from the purview of this Clause, and I maintain I am justified in showing that if you do not cut it down to ten acres you will be defeating the objects of the valuation set up by the Budget of 1909–10. May I point out to hon. Gentlemen opposite who are so anxious to defeat me, that the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) himself yesterday entirely approved of this Amendment, and said he would accept it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] I have his words here.

On the point of Order. All these arguments were used two or three times yesterday. Is not the hon. Gentleman transgressing Standing Order 19 as to irrelevancy?

That is a matter which must be left to my discretion. This is a new Amendment, and the hon. Member must have a reasonable chance of stating his case, but I do again ask him to try and come to the actual Amendment and not deal simply in generalities.

I will certainly confine myself to the Amendment. I deny that these arguments were used last night. If anyone will look through the OFFICIAL REPORT he will find no reference whatever to the prices paid under arbitration by the local authorities who compulsorily purchase land. This is what the hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford said. I wish he was here, as I am sure he would support me. He said:—

"I see the force of the argument used by the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wedgwood. I am bound to say that it never occurred to me, nor has it been suggested by anyone that large areas of agricultural laud could be aggregated in the manner he suggests. I quite see that it might be so interpreted. But that is not our object. Our object is that there should be aggregation, where by dividing you do not get at the value. I am sure the hon. Member must see that that is a reasonable suggestion. I personally should not object to a limit of acreage."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th March, 1911, col. 1013.]
I want to impress upon hon. Members the importance of getting this true valuation. I see the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir Gilbert Parker) in his place. No hon. Member has been more active in going up and down the country urging that we should help people to purchase their own land in order to have small holdings. If you get a fair valuation, such as you would have got under the Budget of 1909–10, you would have a basis on which you could fix the price for land to be compulsorily acquired for small holdings. If you allow the three Noble Lords below the Gangway opposite to prevent this Amendment being carried, you will enable landlords to snap their fingers at the valuation under the Budget and to insist upon exaggerated prices for their land. Do you want to help the small cultivator or not? Do you want to help him get his own land? If you do you want a fair and impartial valuation and not that sort of valuation which apparently they want at Thirsk and Malton. The Government Clause was asked for by the landlords opposite. I am only sorry that the Treasury accepted their suggestion and that they have been enabled——

My Amendment will make it perfectly clear that the Government Clause refers only to urban land, and if it is carried all rural land will be left out of the purview of the Clause. On that ground I am proposing that we should carry this Amendment, in order to exempt all except purely urban land from the operation of this Clause in order to get a fair valuation of agricultural land. I say that the acceptance of this Clause, as it stands, in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, means that you are whittling away the valuation which was given under the Budget of 1909–10. You are playing into the hands of the vested interests, which are too strong for me and for hon. Friends around me. You are enabling them to cut down this valuation in order to destroy it, and I am here to protest against that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide."] We shall divide presently, and into that Lobby will go with the Government——

May I call attention to the conduct of the Noble Lord the Member for Thirsk and Malton.

On a point of Order, am I entitled to call your attention to anything or am I not?

As I was saying, into that Lobby will go the Government and their Parliamentary and Private Secretaries, and they will be followed by the ranks of the landlord party opposite. We may only get about forty or fifty Radicals into this Lobby here, but I should like to know whether there is any hon. Member who thinks that such a Division will carry weight in the country. Vested interests may rule in this House, but go outside and see what is thought of them in the country.

I do not want to go over the whole of the ground traversed by the hon. Member, because I really do not think that his Amendment possesses the extreme importance which he apparently attaches to it. He suggests that we should limit the amount of land that may be aggregated for the purposes of valuation to ten acres. As a matter of fact, at the present moment, for the purposes of such valuation areas in excess of fifty acres are actually being dealt with, and the only result of accepting the Amendment as it stands would be that portions of valuation now going on under the existing Act would have to be put back, as the existing powers for valuing land would be diminished, and there would be an actual reversal of the practice now obtaining.

I think the hon. Gentleman will see that his proposal would amount to an actual reversal of the present practice, and I am quite sure that is not what he wants. I gather from the tenour of his speech that he really wishes to prevent agricultural land being drawn into the same category as urban land, thereby diminishing the value of the urban land. That is what I understand he wants. As I said to him last night in this House, we do not desire that in the general valuation of an estate a great parcel, say a thousand acres, of agricultural land should be mixed up with the urban land, but we do want to give a discretion to the Commissioners so that they may take such areas together as they think fit. We think that their discretion is best not limited by any actual statement made to them. In some cases I can conceive it would be proper to value ten acres together and in others a thousand acres, but I would rather trust to the discretion of the Commissioners in such a matter as that, and give them an absolutely free hand. As I pointed out last night, under Section 29 the Commissioners can assess the value in respect of any such pieces of land which are in conjunction or not as they think fit, and, having assessed the land, they can make such an apportionment or apportionments as to original site value for Undeveloped Land and Increment Land Duty as they think fit in their discretion. I think myself the object of my hon. Friend would be much better obtained by leaving the Clause as it stands, than by attempting to put in the limitation which he seeks to insert. If in practice it is found that there is anything indefinite, and the Government have assented to agricultural land being brought in improperly, then I undertake, on behalf of my hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he will at once meet that situation. There is only one more point that I should like to make. The hon. Gentleman suggested that concessions were being made in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that he would not agree to them. That is not the case. This Clause is introduced in pursuance of an undertaking given by the right hon. Gentleman himself to hon. Gentlemen in this House and outside it, and it is in accordance with his wish that this Clause is introduced.

I do not think the explanation of the Secretary to the Treasury disposes of a point, which is a very serious one, in the minds of some hon. Members. In order to meet an undoubted difficulty in regard to urban land, the Government, has made a concession which is going to have very far-reaching and mischievous results in regard to rural land. It is not a case as between rural and urban land with which this Amendment is intended to deal, and it is as between agricultural land and land having a building value in the villages. I support this Amendment because I think it is essential to have some modification put in if you are going to have a halfpenny tax brought into effect in a great part of the country side. The gravest condition in the villages to-day is the housing condition, and unless this Clause is amended on the lines which it is proposed to alter it by the Amendment you are going to allow men who hold building land having a building value in a village to average with a little plot of frontage hundreds of acres of land having a purely agricultural value. I can justify my contention with instances in my own knowledge. In Northampton- shire I am closely acquainted with the villages in the Grafton country. The Grafton country contains a great many villages where the housing problem is probably as acute as in any part of this country. You have in the Grafton country—and it is exactly such a country as that that this Amendment is intended to deal with—some of the finest stables and kennels in the kingdom, and you have the worst cottages. What will arise unless you put in this Amendment is something like the following: In the parish of Blisworth, in that county, where the land as to a large part of it is owned by the Duke of Grafton, you have land which some of it has a building value. A friend of mine there said, "We could do with thirty cottages if we had them, but we cannot get a bit of land to put a cottage on, because the Duke will only part with it on a thirty-three years' building lease."

No man is going to build cottages on a thirty-three years' building lease, and unless you are going to have some such amendment as this you are not going to put any pressure upon a landlord of that kind to part with his land. In consequence, great stretches of land, hundreds of acres of land, perhaps, if you allow the Clause to remain unamended will be aggregated together. [An HON. MEMBER: "Oh!"] The hon. Member is not only wasting my time but his own. If the Chairman tells me I am out of Order I shall sit down, but until the Chairman tells me to do so I shall continue what I was saying, however unpleasant it may be to the landlord garrison. No man who knows country life, and who has lived in the villages and seen the cottages of the agricultural labourer will deny that the conditions some of the labourers cottages now existing are so abominable that they are a disgrace to a Christian country, and we want by this Amendment to put some economic pressure upon the landowner to compel him to part with land he is now holding up. I can take the Members of this House into a great many of these villages, and if I asked them if they would rather live in the stables or in the cottages they would prefer the stables, and would be well advised in doing so. I hope that the Government and the men who value social reform on these benches, and who know the tragedy involved in the condition of these villages, will help us to pass this Amendment which is intended to deal with a real deficiency in the Revenue Bill. If the Amendment is not adopted in regard to urban areas you will prevent the most valuable provision of the original Act carrying out its most beneficient work and dealing with the social problem in the countryside. I hope the Government will realise that the feeling on this Amendment will not be represented entirely by the number of Members who go into the lobby in support of it, and that they will be making a great error if in order to please their Friends on the other side they deliberately place an obstacle in the way of something which is going to help to the solution of the housing problem in the villages.

I rise because the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) has now arrived, and I want to explain just for a moment what the situation is that has produced this Amendment. It is not an obstructive Amendment, and if it was accepted we would go on merrily at once. Last night a discussion took place upon the question whether this Clause in its present form would not be too extended in its applicability, and whether it might not be quite possible for a landlord if this Clause were carried, while he might have some fine building sites on a public road insisting upon having a considerable amount of hinterland brought into the valuation in order to reduce the value down to a certain point. Then he could claim a reduction of the Land Taxes. The landlords have considerably more power than any other section of the community, and they can bring pressure to bear on the Government in a way in which no one else can. It was, therefore, suggested that there should be some limitation as to the amount of land that should be brought into a single valuation for the purpose of reducing the site value. It was pointed out that if the Clause remained as it was it might be insisted on a big estate being put into one valuation, and that would interfere with and reduce the whole business to a nullity. The hon. Member for Chelmsford said himself that he thought after the difficulties had been pointed out and the possibilities of the Clause without limitation had been explained that there ought to be some limitation in the amount which should be taken in on one valuation and valued as one plot of land. He himself, therefore, suggested this Amendment, which is now being moved, strange as it may seem to Noble Lords below the Gangway, on the other side of the House. I am bound to confess that if there was one thing which would have caused me to be suspicious of the Amendment it is the fact that it was suggested by the hon. Member for Chelmsford, but, evidently, he did that without having considered the whole effects of its legislative action, because I notice now he is not giving the proposition the support which he gave it last night, as he is already shaking his head at my suggestion that he inspired the Amendment. It is not an obstructive one; it is not an unfair one; and I am sure if Noble Lords opposite were not great landlords themselves they would see that it was absolutely fair and would not shout, "Divide, divide," at every Member who suggested that the Government should insist upon introducing into the Clause something which would at least give effect to the principle supported by the hon. Gentleman on the front Opposition Bench last night.

rose in his place and claimed to Move, "That the Question be now put," but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

I wish, if I may, to bring the Committee back to the real point made with regard to this Amendment. The hon. Member for Chelmsford stated quite frankly last night that this new Clause was inserted at the instance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the fulfilment of a pledge that he gave him. That is perfectly plain. In the course of the discussion the hon. Gentleman frankly and freely admitted that the Clause, as drafted, was considerably wider than the case for which he asked the concession. He stated that he had no idea that such a state of things as the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood) indicated, would be possible under the Clause, and he further said in the most definite language that if an Amendment were proposed for the purpose of putting that right he would support that Amendment. I am endeavouring under those circumstances to ask the hon. Member to fulfil the pledge he gave last night, and I think the whole of this suggestion of obstruction will immediately come to and end if the hon. Gentleman will rise in his place and say that now today he supports this Amendment as he supported it last night. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] He did support it in the most definite manner, and the Noble Lord said this afternoon that if he did he knew nothing about it. I can only say that in the whole political history of this country there has never been greater ingratitude than that of the Noble Lord to the one Member on that side of the House who has been able to make an Amendment to this Bill even plausibly in the House or in the country. We are fully entitled, in view of the statement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman that what he asked the concession for was to deal merely with the case of small houses in towns, to say we will not have imposed upon us a Clause so wide. Even ten acres is said to be excessive. We who are interested in this matter have deep convictions. We are not here to defend vested interests. We are here to defend deep-seated convictions. When the right hon. Gentleman assures us that if, when the Clause is put in operation, the difficulties we foresee actually occur, we shall then get other legislation, I desire to remind him that he is legislating not for the lifetime of this Parliament, but for the lifetime of future Parliaments, and I ask him, in view of the exhibition this afternoon, if it is found that these difficulties arise when a Conservative Government is in power, what hope he thinks the people of this country will have that the matter will be dealt with with fairness or impartiality. When Noble Lords will not even allow discussion——

I must ask the Noble Lord not to continue constantly interrupting our proceedings in the way he is doing.

I should like to ask you, Sir, whether you consider it fair when we are carrying on a debate under these strict conditions of time, Members on the Government side should take up the whole time of the House?

It is not a matter for me to express an opinion on at all, but I am perfectly certain, if the debate were carried on more quietly and with less interruption, we should proceed very much more quickly.

I desire simply to make an appeal to the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Mr. Pretyman). I think I am entitled to put fairly to the House and to the Government if, in view of the exhibition this afternoon, they think that when a Conservative Government is in power there is the slightest hope that the matter would then be remedied. I appeal to the Government, if they object to the hon. Member's (Mr. Wedgwood) form of words, at any rate to give us limiting words which will give some permanent protection to the people of this country. I wish it to be remembered that we are discussing a Clause which is a concession to the Opposition, and therefore men upon this side of the House, who take exception to these concessions to the Opposition, ought surely not to be debarred merely because we are working under a Closure Resolution from the only opportunity which is open to them to express their convictions.

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put," but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

I beg to move, to leave out the word "ten" and to insert instead thereof the words "one hundred." It must be generally agreed by anyone who has listened impartially to the Debate that the suggested new Clause, as it stands, leaves much too wide a latitude to the valuers—so wide that it almost seems a resignation of the powers of legislation by the House to the valuers. The only re-

Division No. 88.]

AYES.

[4.40 p.m.

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.Harwood, GeorgeRaffan, Peter Wilson
Alden, PercyHigham, John SharpRendall, Athelstan
Barnes, George N.Hinds, JohnRichardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Bethel), Sir John HenryHudson, WalterRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Black, Arthur w.Johnson, W.Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Bowerman, C. W.Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)Rowlands, James
Byles, William PollardJones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Chancellor, H. G.Jowett, Frederick WilliamSmith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Clynes, John R.King, J. (Somerset, N.)Snowden, Philip
Collins, G. P. (Greenock)Lansbury, GeorgeSutherland, J. E.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)Sutton, John E
Crooks, WilliamLogan, John WilliamTaylor, John W. (Durham)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Thomas, J. H. (Derby)
Duncan, C (Barrow-in-Furness)M'Callum, John M.Thorne, William (West Ham)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
France, Gerald AshburnerMartin, JosephWardle, George J.
Gibson, Sir James PuckeringNeilson, FrancisWatt, Henry A.
Gill, A. H.Ogden, FredWhite, Sir George (Norfolk)
Goldstone, FrankO'Grady, JamesWilkie, Alexander
Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)Parker, James (Halifax)Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Hancock, John GeorgePointer JosephWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)Pollard, Sir George H.
Harvey, T. E (Leeds, W.)Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Wedgwood and Mr. Kellaway.
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)Pringle, William M. R.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)Baldwin, StanleyBentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-
Acland, Francis DykeBalfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.)Bigland, Alfred
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F.Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeBird, A.
Agnew, Sir George WilliamBanner, John S. Harmood-Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine
Ainsworth, John StirlingBaring, Capt. Hon. G. V.Booth, Frederick Handel
Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud)Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)Boyle, w. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)
Anderson, Andrew MacbethBarnston, HarryBrassey, H. Leonard Campbell
Archer-Shee, Major M.Barran, Sir John N. (Hawich B.)Bridgeman, W. Clive
Armitage, R.Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)Brigg, Sir John
Ashley, W. WBarry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)Brocklehurst, W. B.
Ashton, Thomas GairBarton, W.Bryce, J. Annan
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert HenryBathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Bull, Sir William James
Astor, WaldorfBeach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksBurgoyne, A. H.
Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.Beauchamp, EdwardBurn, Colonel C. R.
Baird, J. L.Beckett, Hon. William GervaseBurns, Rt. Hon. John
Baker, H. T. (Accrington)Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Butt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)Butcher, J. G.
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)Bennett-Goldney, FrancisBuxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.)
Balcarres, LordBentham, G. J.Campion, W. R.

sult can be to create an enormous number of anomalies up and down the country. I, therefore, suggest that the Government should accept the Amendment, with the substitution of the words "a hundred" for the word "ten."

I should be perfectly willing to accept the Amendment so that the Clause would run "shall not in the aggregate exceed a hundred acres in extent."

I should like to say a word or two in favour of the principle of the original Amendment.

There is an Amendment moved to the Amendment. We must get that settled, and then there will be no objection to the hon. Member dealing with the Amendment as a whole.

Question put, "That the word 'ten' stand part of the proposed Amendment."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 69; Noes, 310.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.Hope, Harry (Bute)Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Cassel, FelixHome, C. Silvester (Ipswich)Pole-Carew, Sir R.
Castlereagh, ViscountHorne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Cator, JohnHorner, Andrew LongPretyman, Ernest George
Cave, GeorgeHoward, Hon. GeoffreyPrice, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)Hughes, S. L.Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)
Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath)Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)Ingleby, HolcombeQuitter, William Eley C.
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. HenryIsaacs, Sir Rufus DanielRadford, G. H
Chapple, Dr. W. A.Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)Rainy, A. Rolland
Clancy, John JosephJones, William (Carnarvonshire)Raphael, Sir Herbert H.
Clay, Captain H. H. SpenderJoynson-Hicks, WilliamRatcliff Major R. F.
Clive, Percy ArcherKebty-Fletcher, J. R.Rawson, Colonel R. H.
Clyde, J. AvonKerr-Smiley, Peter KerrRea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Kimber, Sir HenryRea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Kinloch-Cooke, Sir ClementRedmond, William (Clare, E.)
Courthope, G. LoydKirkwood, John H. M.Remnant, James Farquharson
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)Knight, Captain E. A.Rice, Hon. W. F.
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)Kyffin-Taylor, G.Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Crawshay-Williams, EliotLambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinianLane-Fox, G. R.Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Cripps, Sir Charles AlfredLarmor, Sir J.Robinson, Sydney
Croft, H. P.Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Crumley, PatrickLevy, Sir MauriceRolleston, Sir John
Dalrymple, ViscountLewis, John HerbertRonaldshay, Earl of
Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)Lewisham, ViscountRothschild, Lionel de
Davies, E. William (Eifion)Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)Royds, Edmund
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.St. Maur, Harold
Delany, WilliamLough, Rt. Hon. ThomasSamuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)
Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasLowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Dewar, Sir J. A.Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)Samuel, J. (Stockton)
Dickinson, W. H. (St. Pancras, N.)Lyell, Charles HenrySanders, Robert A.
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. ScottLynch, A. A.Sanderson, Lancelot.
Dixon, Charles Harvey (Boston)Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)Scanlan, Thomas
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)Mackinder, H. J.Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master ofMaclean, DonaldSmith, H. B. L. (Northampton)
Eyres-Monsell, B. M.Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Spear, John Ward
Falle, P. G.MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftStanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Fell, ArthurMacVeagh, JeremiahSteel-Maitland, A. D.
Fenwick, CharlesM'Laren, H. D (Leics.)Stewart, Gershom
Ferens, T. R.M'Micking, Major GilbertStrachey, Sir Edward
Fetherstonhaugh, GodfreyMagnus, Sir PhilipStrauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.Malcolm, IanSummers, James Woolley
Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)Mallaby-Deeley, HarrySykes, Alan John
Forster, Henry WilliamMason, James F. (Windsor)Taylor, T. C. (Radcliff)
Foster, Philip StaveleyMasterman, C. F. G.Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
Gardner, ErnestMeagher, MichaelThomson, W. Mitchell (Down, North)
Gastrell, Major W. H.Menzies, Sir WalterTouche, George Alexander
Gelder, Sir W. A.Mildmay, Francis BinghamTrevelyan, Charles Philips
Gibbs, G. A.Millar, James DuncanTullibardine, Marquess of
Glanville, H. J.Mills, Hon. Charles ThomasValentia, Viscount
Goddard, Sir Daniel FordMolteno, Percy AlportVerney, Sir Henry
Goldman, C. S.Money, L. G. ChiozzaWalrond, Hon. Lionel
Goldsmith, FrankMorgan, George HayWard, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Grant, J. A.Morpeth, ViscountWarde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Greene, W. R.Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)Morton, Alpheus CleophasWason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Greig, Colonel J. W.Mount, William ArthurWason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Gretton, JohnMuldoon, JohnWebb, H.
Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)Munro, R.Weigall, Capt. A. G.
Guinness, Hon. W. E.Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.Wheler, Granville C. A
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Hackett, J.Newdegate, F. A.White, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Haddock, George BahrNewman, John R. P.White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Hambro, Angus ValdemarNewton, Harry KottinghamWhyte, A. F. (Perth)
Hamersley, Alfred St. GeorgeNicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)Wiles, Thomas
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)Nield, HerbertWilliams, P. (Middlesbrough)
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)Norman, Sir HenryWilloughby, Major Hon. Claud
Harris, Henry PercyO'Donnell, ThomasWilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)
Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.Winfrey, Richard
Havelock-Allan, Sir HenryOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWolmer, Viscount
Haworth, Arthur A.O'Shaughnessy, P. J.Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)
Helmsley, ViscountPaget, Almeric HughWood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Herbert, Col. Sir IvorPalmer, GodfreyWorthington-Evans, L.
Hill, Sir Clement L.Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Hills, John WallerPearce, William (Limehouse)Younger, George
Hill-Wood, SamuelPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Hoare, Samuel John GurneyPease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Peel, Hon. w. R. W. (Taunton)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Hodge, JohnPerkins, Walter F.
Holt, Richard DurningPeto, Basil Edward

Question put, "That the words 'one hundred' be there inserted."

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland were appointed Tellers for the Ayes; but, no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, the Chairman declared the Ayes had it

I beg to move to leave out the word "expedient" ["special circumstances of the case it is expedient to do so."] and to insert instead thereof the word "equitable."

I feel confident no Member of this House would wish in a case where there is a conflict of opinion as between what is expedient and what is equitable that the Commissioners should be placed in the position that they could not do what was equitable, if they wished to do so.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.

New Clause—(Saving For Statutory Companies)

Notwithstanding anything contained in the principal Act, where under the provisions of any lease or agreement any statutory company are required to pay over any part of the increment value of any land to His Majesty, or to any person on behalf of His Majesty, or and Department of Government, that part of the increment value shall, for the purposes of the provisions of the said Act as to the collection of Increment Value Duty, be treated as increment value arising in respect of land held by His Majesty.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."—[ Mr. Hobhouse.]

5.0 P.M.

As the originator of this Clause, I should like to say a few words upon it. Allow me, in the first place, to thank the Government for having accepted the Clause and thereby fulfilled the promise they gave to me a year and a-half ago. I will briefly explain to the House my reasons for having proposed the Clause, and also on behalf of the Government, I will explain their reasons for having accepted it. I placed this Clause on the paper originally in the interest of the Humber Conservancy Board, and also in the interest of any company that may be placed in a similar position. The Humber Conservancy Board are a statutory company under the Act, and they are the leaseholders of the foreshore of the Humber. They hold it under a 999 years' lease; but there is a reservation that on any sale of the foreshore a third of the price that is paid is to go to the Board of Trade. The Committee will see that this Clause gives a small, but only a very small, relief to the Humber Conservancy Board. It frees from Increment Duty that portion of the price which goes to the Government. I think everybody must admit that this is a fair and reasonable proposition. If the Government wish the figures showing what the effect would be, and how small the benefit would be to the Conservancy Board, I have got them in my pocket, and will give them if desired; but I do not wish to take up the time of the Committee unnecessarily. Hon. Members below the Gangway, the land taxers, have already occupied the time of the Committee to such an extent that I hope on this Clause they will not consider it necessary to intervene, because I think even they will see the entire justice of the Clause. I should like incidentally to remark that the Humber Conservancy is not one for making profit. Its sole, object is the benefit of the traders on the river Humber. A year and a half ago the hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Ferens), a supporter of the Government, and I did our best to get this Clause inserted in the Budget Bill which was then before the House. On the Committee stage I moved an Amendment which was a great deal wider than that which the Government have adopted now. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told me then that he could not accept it, but he added that if something could be brought forward on Report which would commend it to him, he would accept it. Negotiations took place before the Report stage, and this Amendment was put on the Paper with the full approval of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but unfortunately, for family reasons, I was unable to be present on the Report stage. Through some misunderstanding the Attorney-General, who was left in charge of the Report stage on that occasion, refused at the last moment to accept the Amendment which was moved by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hull. We were thus prevented from getting the Amendment accepted by the Government. Immediately afterwards, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted the mistake which was then made and promised to insert it on the first opportunity.

This is the first opportunity he has had of accepting this Amendment, and therefore I thank him and thank the Government for having fulfilled their promise.

Clause read a second time and added to the Bill.

New Clause—(Provisions As To The Borough Of Dewsbury)

The borough of Dewsbury (including the added part of Soothill Upper amalgamated therewith), and the urban districts of Ravensthorpe, Soothill Nether, and Thornhill, which in pursuance of the Dewsbury Extension Order, 1909, as confirmed by the Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (No. 6) Act, 1909, were, as from the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and ten, to form one borough to be called the borough of Dewsbury, shall, notwithstanding anything contained in that Order, continue for the period of fifteen years from that date to be separate urban areas for the purpose of Scale 3 in the First Schedule to the principal Act.

Motion made and question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."—[ Mr. Hobhouse.]

The Committee will remember that the Finance Bill of 1909 contained a provision that there should be fixed certain minimum license duties in county boroughs and other urban districts. These minimum license duties varied on a scale of the population of the places concerned, as stated in Scale 3, Schedule 1, of the Finance Act of 1909–10. While the Bill was under consideration representations were made on behalf of the borough of Stoke-on-Trent in connection with which a particular Amendment was made. Stoke-on-Trent at that time was being combined with a number of boroughs and urban districts into one single county borough under a Provisional Order, which was for a long time under the consideration of this House. But that Provisional Order recited that for twenty years, although those various localities should bear the title of Stoke-on-Trent, and should for many purposes be one, there should be differential rating, and they should not be financially homogeneous. It was pointed out that the effect of this Provisional Order then passing through the House would be that all the public-houses in Stoke-on-Trent would come upon the higher scale of minimum duty. Every publican would have to pay a minimum licence duty of £35, and there would be a minimum duty of £23 10s. for every beerhouse. It was suggested that this was an injustice, especially in view of the fact that Parliament, in the financial provisions of the Order provided that 20 years were to intervene before the borough for financial purposes should be a single borough, and consequently a provision was inserted in the Schedule to the effect that during those twenty years Stoke-upon-Trent was not to be regarded as one locality under the minimum scale, but should be counted as several localities, as it was in the Provisional Order. When the Bill was passed into law representations were made by the publicans of the borough of Dewsbury, showing that they were in precisely the same position as Stoke-upon-Trent. There is no other town in the country except Dewsbury in that position. They also were under the Provisional Order being changed into one large borough from several smaller towns. The effect would be to bring the public-houses of this small place under the higher scale of minimum duties. If the districts had not been so combined, the public-houses would have come upon a lower scale of minimum duties. They pointed out also that the Provisional Order made it clear that for a period of fifteen years the rating was to be differential, and they were to be considered a single corporation only for certain purposes, but not for financial purposes. This precise analogy of Stoke-on-Trent having been pointed out, it was impossible to resist the claim that the same provisions should apply to this place also. I hope, therefore, with that explanation the Committee will be able to do justice to the publicans of Dewsbury, even though they are represented by a Minister in this House.

This is a very remarkable Clause and requires some little examination by the Committee before it is accepted in its present form. I am not opposing this Clause, which gives some relief to the licensed trade in Dewsbury and the district, but I claim that the relief now granted should be extended to other places in the same position. My objection to this Clause is that the relief granted is so limited as to be a very small thing. It will only affect Dewsbury and the surrounding districts, though it has reference to a grievance which affects very large areas indeed in the country. The remark- able thing about this Clause is that it is a direct acknowledgment by the Government itself that these minimum licence scales were a real hardship and that that hardship should be remedied in this particular case. Can the House think that if this borough had been represented by a Member on this side of the House it would have had the same consideration?

I am glad to hear that, because we are going to move an Amendment to make all boroughs in the same position. I will take that as a pledge that that Amendment will be accepted. These minimum duties are extremely onerous. They commence at £5 for a public house and £2 10s. for a beer house in districts of less than 2,000 population, and they amount by successive increases in districts where the population is 100,000 to £35 in the case of a public house and £23 10s. in the case of a beer house, or exactly the same rateable value as in the smaller districts. They are crushing out of existence a large number of licensed houses in this country. I have in my pocket——

The hon. Member is really discussing the scale. The scale does not affect an exception in regard to any particular case.

My purpose is to show that this case is not an isolated one as argued by the Government, and that the exemption ought to be extended much further than about Dewsbury. I have on the Paper an Amendment which proposes to extend this exemption to other boroughs which are not represented by Members of the present Government.

Perhaps as a matter of convenience, I might inform the hon. Gentleman that the Amendment is not in order because the Clause would not read after the Amendment was put in. The Clause, at a later point than that where the hon. Member moved to insert his Amendment, contains the words: "Shall not, notwithstanding anything contained in that Order." Obviously, those words do not apply if the words proposed by the hon. Member were inserted. With regard to the other Amendment which has been handed in by the hon. Member for Sheffield, I do not think he can move it as an Amendment of this Clause, it must be moved as a new Clause.

The operative part of this Clause which the Government moved is the admission of the Government as to the existing injustice. It exists in every town in this country, and the complaint we make is that it is adopted by the Government for one borough only, and that borough happens to be represented by a prominent Member of the present Government. In the absence of some explanation much more thorough than that which has been just given by the Postmaster-General to this Committee, the only conclusion we can arrive at is that the Minister for Education is educating the Government in methods of using his influence for the benefit of his constituents which would not have been used for the benefit of any other constituency of this country.

Will the hon. Member give me any other case in which the circumstances are the same?

Yes; other cases are coming forward in a few weeks. I understand that there are Provisional Orders before the House which are almost certain to be passed this Session, and which will create the very same circumstances, and there has been no indication by the Government that they are prepared, and there are no provisions in this measure which would permit them, to deal with other cases in the same way as they are dealing with the borough of Dewsbury. I suppose in a Bill of this nature we cannot urge an amendment dealing with the whole principle under discussion, but I can assure the Committee and the Government that there is no greater hardship on the licensed classes than the minimum scale, and that it is a matter we shall have to oppose to the utmost at every opportunity. Meantime I am glad to have from the Government an admission that they are prepared to apply the same principle to all cases which are on a similar footing to the borough of Dewsbury, and I shall hold them to the pledge they have now given publicly before the House and the country to introduce into the Revenue Bill the words of a new Clause which will enable them to carry out the undertakings that are inserted in this Clause and clear themselves of the suspicion that they are carrying out a bargain in the interests of a Member of their own Cabinet.

I think it is rather remarkable that the Government when it deals with a grievance which has been raised now for some months affecting a number of places only proposes to remedy the grievance in one place. For some months past complaint has been made that where you either turn a rural district into an urban district, or combine several urban districts or enlarge an urban district or a borough, the effect is automatically under the minimum scale of the Act of last year substantially to increase the Licence Duties of a number of public-houses. There is no doubt whatever that there are other eases besides the case of Dewsbury. I do not know whether there is any other complete case, but other cases are going to be completed immediately in which exactly the same point arises. Take one, for which I happen to have the figures. The effect in the Borough of Cambridge is this. There is in course of completion an order for extending the borough of Cambridge, with the result of increasing the population from about 38,000 to over 50,000. The effect there would be to increase by something like 50 per cent. the minimum duties upon the public-houses in that borough. Out of the 212 licensed houses in Cambridge no less than 154, or more than three-quarters, come under the minimum clause. With regard to those 154 houses, the effect of simply extending the borough would be to increase the licence duty by an average of £7 10s. per house. But besides that the order will bring into the Borough of Cambridge other houses which are now outside, in the rural districts. I am told there are thirty-one of those houses to be brought in. The effect on those houses is to increase their average Licence Duty per annum by about £12 10s. per house. Some of them will make a sudden jump by the mere fact of becoming part of this borough, from paying a duty of £5 to paying a duty of £30. The minimum is £5 outside the borough, in the rural district, and £30 is the minimum inside a borough having a population exceeding 50,000. Even as regards the rural beerhouse, paying £3 10s., it will suddenly jump to £20 under the minimum under the scale. This is hard upon houses which will not increase their custom owing to the mere fact that the arbitrary line of the borough boundary is extended to include it in the borough instead of its being outside. Here you have an instance of real hardship of the same kind as that to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and yet no step is taken in this Clause for remedying that hardship. As a matter of fact, it is only an instance, as my hon. Friend has remarked, of the many ways in which this minimum scale works injustice. If we get an oppor- tunity we shall certainly ask the House to consider whether the whole minimum scale ought not to be reduced to a more reasonable form. I cannot argue the whole point now, but I think I am entitled to add that in every case of extension, or urbanising or conversion into an urban district, this is what immediately occurs. And, more than that, we have the operation which is just going to take place of the Census Law, and the ascertainment of the result will immediately increase the Licence Duty of a number of these houses. I was astonished to find, on seeing the figures, to how large a proportion of cases the minimum duty applies. I was under the impression that only a small proportion would be subject to the duty, but I find that the minimum applies to three-fourths of the houses.

On a point of Order, Sir. I ask whether the hon. Member is justified in discussing the minimum scale?

The minimum scale is not the subject of discussion; at the same time, the minimum scale has some bearing on this particular Amendment.

I am not going into the general question of the minimum scale, but I am giving an instance where, without increasing custom, and by the mere operation of the Census Law, the Licence Duty is automatically increased. My argument is that the Government ought to have provided, not for one isolated case, but for all cases coming within the same purview and having the same grievance. They should have come within a general clause. The mere operation of the Census Law will, owing to this minimum scale, increase the duties of a large number of houses, although everybody knows that in rural districts no increase of custom will come. I am not going to argue the whole case, but I have said enough to show that it is not right to deal with the matter in regard to one instance alone. I do not for one moment suggest that the Clause is due to the fact that a Member of the Government represents Dewsbury, but I cannot help thinking that if the Government had taken a little thought they would have seen that the grievance is a general one. I am unwilling myself to see one particular grievance dealt with alone, because I think the opportunity has come when the whole matter might be considered and dealt with by the House, and we ought not to restrict ourselves to one case only without considering all the others that are to come. I think we ought to have some further and better explanation why the Government have chosen to deal with one case, and not considered the whole matter which was fully before them.

The Postmaster-General wants instances of cases similar to that of Dewsbury. I rise to call his attention to a case in process of completion which is of a very important character—I mean the extension which has already taken place, and is taking place, of the boundaries of the city of Birmingham. That municipality has already included, by a Local Government Board Order, and an Act passed in pursuance, the parish of Quinton, and there the work of unification is complete. But a very much more important scheme has passed through this House, and is likely, it is generally anticipated, to pass through another place—at any rate, it has been approved by this House, and as far as this House is concerned, the work of unification is complete—that is the annexation on an enormous scale by the city of Birmingham of another borough and urban and rural districts in my own Constituency. I am afraid I have not got the exact figures as to the population, or as to the effect of the Licence Duty, as was done with so much effect by my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Cave); but perhaps I may say this, as regards my own Constituency of East Worcestershire, there are, roughly, 25,000 electors in that constituency; and I think about half of them will be annexed by the Birmingham Bill—the whole of the rural districts of Yardley, King's Norton, and Northfield, which come in the Division of the hon. Member for North Worcestershire. Part of that is undoubtedly urban area, but part of it is essentially rural. There are many in stances of absolutely rural land over which there is no prospect of building for a good while to come, which will be included.

That is a question which we cannot now discuss. I have taken no part in the discussion myself as to whether they ought to be included or not, being in the position of having one-half of my Constituency of one way of thinking, while the other half is of the other way of thinking. By the proposal promoted in this House and now before the other House, there is every probability that this enormous area will be brought into the city of Birmingham. It never could have been in the contemplation of the Government, and it certainly was not foreseen by them when the Finance Bill was passed, or when this Bill was before the House of Commons, that one result of the two Bills working together would be to automatically raise the Licence Duty of a great number of publicans, while other circumstances which affect their trade and the income that they could make would remain exactly the same. I cannot conceive on what principle the Government have acted. The Postmaster-General seemed to resent any suspicion of the fact that the Member for Dewsbury is one of the Cabinet, that he had peculiar opportunities of impressing the grievance of his constituency upon the Government, and that his own views should have weighed with the Government at all. But they must have known as well as everybody else that the borough of Dewsbury does not stand alone, and even if it were the only case which was completed up to the present, excepting the case of the Potteries town, which has been already dealt with, they must have known that the same kind of case would be constantly occurring in future, and if it was just to provide for the case of Dewsbury, it was equally just to provide for other cases. Why in these circumstances they should have singled out Dewsbury, except from the fact that Dewsbury had a powerful advocate in the Government, I have not been able to discover, and the Government have not been able to explain. I do not complain that in the case of Dewsbury the Government have met a real and admitted grievance; I do not want to blame them for anything they have done in that case; but I do say they are absolutely bound to extend to other constituencies which are not represented in the Cabinet the same treatment which they have given to the case of Dewsbury.

The right hon. Gentleman calls for some further reply, although I had hoped I would be able to make the clause abundantly clear by showing the Committee quite distinctly that Dewsbury and Stoke-upon-Trent stand in a completely different category from any other borough in the country. What I have to say now will be to some extent a repetition of what I said before. Of course everyone is well aware that local Government bounds are frequently changed owing to changes in local circumstances. Almost every year extensions are made by some of the municipalities to include outlying areas, and this has an effect, not merely upon the Licence Duty, but upon the local rates. The householder who has been paying rates in a rural parish suddenly in one year, owing to the extension of the municipality, finds himself paying rates on the urban scale.

In the case of Birmingham special rate privileges are accorded to districts which are incorporated. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Not all of them."] I think there was one case, but in that instance the rate was higher than in Birmingham. I believe that in every case in which the rates were lower these special rate privileges were accorded for a term of years, extending up to twenty years in one case.

I am taking the general case given by the hon. and learned Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave), who stated that Cambridge is extending its areas to places which are rural parishes. He did not say that there was any differentiation allowed to those parishes.

As a rule, with Provisional Orders, the outlying districts are simply taken in, and the publican, like any other ratepayer, finds that the burden placed upon him is on the urban scale instead of, as previously, the rural scale. So far no cases at all have been brought to the knowledge of the Treasury, until this moment the case of Birmingham, which are on all fours with Stoke-upon-Trent and Dewsbury—not one. I have inquired of the officials of the Board of Excise, who say that not a single instance has come to their notice in any part of the country in which a town has been placed in a position such as Dewsbury and Stoke-upon-Trent have been placed in, namely, of having been united into a single borough within quite lately, and at the same time a long period of differential rating allowed, showing that, in the opinion of those who made the Provisional Order, the borough was not yet really one homogeneous borough.

That is the basis on which we proceeded, and it is that which differentiates Dewsbury from other towns, and not the fact that it happens to be represented by a Cabinet Minister. I am astounded that the hon. Member, such as the hon. Member for Rutland (Mr. Gretton) should have thought it worthy of himself or of this House to suggest that this was done for Cabinet reasons, or that it was done for corrupt motives, and that we are giving revenue away in order to please a Member of the Cabinet, and not on any ground of principle. I was delighted to hear the hon. and learned Member for Kingston (Mr. Cave) do what anyone would naturally expect from him, and immediately express his entire disagreement from so unworthy a suggestion. The only differentiation between Dewsbury and other towns is, of course, that there has been the differential rating allowed for a period of fifteen years following a Provisional Order, and we have allowed differential rating for the same period for the assessment of the Licence Duty. In the case of Stoke we took a period of twenty years, because that was the period fixed in the Provisional Order relating to that town. Let hon. Members opposite, if they will, criticise the whole plan of the minimum Licence Duty, and we shall have a good answer to give, but on this particular occasion I think I have succeeded in showing that there is a differentiation with regard to Dewsbury from other towns.

If in the case of Birmingham the facts are on all fours then, of course, the matter must be considered on a similar footing.

It is not on all fours. We must investigate into these cases if hon. Members are good enough to give particulars, but all I can say is that their constituencies have not been very well served since, with the analogy of Stoke-upon-Trent standing upon the face of the Act of 1909 they waited all this while, to the last moment before representing the case.

I think the last sentence has come very oddly from the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman. He is perfectly aware in the first place, or at least I imagine I am right in saying that the Members for those boroughs represent the old and not the extensive boroughs. Then what is the meaning of the taunt, the perfectly unnecessary taunt in any case and now meaningless?

Hon. Members pointed out how persons in the old boroughs were affected.

The old borough may be injured, but the injury is obviously greater in the districts which are added to the municipal borough but which are not added to the Parliamentary borough, whose local interests a Member of this House is bound to consider. Quite apart from that rather trifling point made by the right hon. Gentleman, I think he will see that the defence of the Government is utterly inadequate. The right hon. Gentleman objects, and very strongly, to the suggestion that the policy pursued by the Government is due to the fact that it is because Dewsbury happens to be represented by a Cabinet Minister. Let me say he must have perferctly well known that as the borough, to which this Bill alone referred, was represented by a Cabinet Minister, that it was all important to the Government, from their own point of view, to do their very best to show that they were not applying a general proposition to a particular case, that particular case being one of their own immediate friends. Why have they not taken the trouble, and if they will not take that trouble, why do they complain of the natural inference which the policy pursued inevitably suggests. The right hon. Gentleman says that the Treasury made anxious inquiries, but despite all their inquiries, they never succeeded in finding out what was going on in even the unknown and populous city of Birmingham. They are not only ignorant of what was going on in Birmingham, but as my right hon. Friend (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) pointed out, the Bill dealing with this very question of Birmingham has been before this House on more than one occasion.

I must say that if that is the principle on which the right hon. Gentleman is going, it is surprising. In this case it is not denied, whether it is a universal case or not, that there is a differential rating. The right hon. Gentleman admits that where there is differential rating that there the publicans have a case. Here is an example of a Bill that has passed this House, which is supported by the Local Government Board, which has every possibility of passing into law, and yet because it is not passed the whole interests of Birmingham and East Worcestershire are to be brushed aside. That is an incredible policy. In my opinion the Government case absolutely breaks down on the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. His statement does not go far enough. He lays down the proposition apparently that where there is no different- tial rating the publican can have no complaint. He says you bring in from outside of a borough a certain number of ratepayers, and, instead of allowing them to come in and pay the old rates, you immediately impose the heavier rate, which presumably existed within the old limits of the borough, and that where that is done the publican shares the fate of the ratepayer. The ratepayer is a ratepayer, but the publican is a taxpayer with no connection with the borough, and the two cases are quite different. I am not here to defend the equity of our rating arrangements. Everybody, including the Government, admits that the rating arrangements of this country leave a great deal to be desired, and press with great hardship and severity on certain classes of ratepayers. That is not denied. But simply to say that a man has to pay more taxes because he pays more rates when no other claim whatever is made, that surely is not a principle which the Government are going to lay down as a principle with any common-sense equity or high statesmanship.

Here is the case of a publican whom you thought was adequately taxed, and I am not now speaking of rates. You put on him a Licence Duty of £5; you suddenly raise that Licence Duty for taxation purposes, and not for rating purposes, from £5 to £20. We say, why do you raise in and quadruple it when no alteration has taken place, when he has no more customers, and when he is under no more favourable circumstances? Why, when he is not better able to pay that £20, is he to be mulcted? You cannot show from any single point of view that that man is more properly a subject for taxation when he has been forced into the bigger borough or bigger population than he was before. Surely there must be some principle underlying the policy in this case. Why is the Dewsbury publican, apart from his felicity in being so admirably represented, apart from that exceptional piece of good fortune, why is he to be spared taxation that his brother publican in another and neighbouring borough, to which he has been attached or is in process of being attached, is to have no relief from at all. It appears to the right hon. Gentleman that the Dewsbury publican is specially worthy of being relieved from his taxes because an arrangement has been come to which relieves him of his rates. Why is that a claim for relief from taxation? I should have thought that he was exceptionally fortunate in enjoying that privilege, and that he had no additional claim to relief from taxation.

The broad equities of the case surely are perfectly clear. They do not admit, of doubt. I do not believe any hon. Gentleman on the other side will contradict the broad proposition that if it be not just and right because a publican suddenly finds himself without any increase in his means of livelihood that he should be taxed four times his original amount simply because, by an arrangement with the Local Government Board, he is suddenly transferred to a larger area, if that is the broad principle, and it is the only principle which underlies the policy adopted in the Dewsbury case or the Potteries case, then you ought to extend that principle wherever it applies. If you do not extend that principle wherever it applies you are open to the charge or suspicion that some unknown motive not connected with the principle is really moving you. I should have thought the Government, in their own interests, would see the absolute necessity of extending to all cases, properly and equitably applied, the principle which they have chosen to embody in legislative enactment in the case of the Potteries, and which is now proposed in the case of Dewsbury. I think that they have behaved right in the case of Dewsbury and in the case of the Potteries, and they have applied a principle plainly capable of extension, or rather which should be plainly capable of extension outside those two boroughs, and if they wish to earn the title that they are really treating similar cases similarly without respect of party, without prejudice, without discrimination, then it seems to me absolutely necessary, even from their own point of view, that they should give a just and logical extension to a principle the equity of which they themselves have admitted both in the Bill before us and in the Act of 1909.

I wish the right hon. Gentleman who has just addressed the House knew a little more about Dewsbury. I happen to have some knowledge of it. I did not intend to take part in this discussion, but after the exhibition of ignorance on the part of the Leader of the Opposition as to this particular case which we are discussing I do so. I happen to have lived within two miles of Dewsbury all my life. There is a very material point of difference between the Potteries case and this case, and any other case that I have heard mentioned here to-night unless new Birmingham is to be in its essence an aggregation of separately, and almost equally, existing places before, which we know it is not. This is a case of a small area that is having some large areas added to it, and no doubt on a large scale. The important feature in the case of Dewsbury, and any one who knows the district will confirm me, is that whereas in the case of the Potteries, five towns, more or less equal, were combined in one, three of them, I think, boroughs, and one or two urban district councils, in this case one borough is being combined with three and a-half urban districts, but some of the districts are almost equal in importance to the borough of Dewsbury itself.

Will the hon. Member tell us why it makes a difference that joined bodies should be equal, and that there is not that difference when the planet falls into the sun?

I will try without any reference to the planet to explain. There really is, in my humble opinion, a difference in principle where a number of smaller bodies, that are practically offshoots of the central body, are joined in one from the case of several independent bodies which are highly organised, which have their own sewerage works, separate gasworks, and in several cases separate waterworks, and some of which once did not expect and did not desire to be joined to Dewsbury. I helped the proposal through the Committee upstairs, although I belonged to the borough of Batley, which is supposed to be somewhat jealous of Dewsbury. I am not in any way partial to Dewsbury, and Batley is supposed to be a rival as well as a close neighbour. But when that scheme came before the Committee upstairs arguments were brought forward which I think showed that this special treatment should be given. In one case a large part of the population is separated from the remainder by fields. This case is more a combination of several similar areas than a case of planets falling into the sun, if I may employ the metaphor which has already been used. It is quite different from the cases of Cambridge and Birmingham.

I do not think the hon. Member is familiar with the district of which Birmingham is the centre. The hon. Member lays stress on the fact that large populous districts included in Dewsbury are separated by areas of fields.

I can show him several cases exactly like that if he comes down to Birmingham.

I believe the Government will treat the right hon. Gentleman's constituency as fairly as they are treating the constituency of the Member for Dewsbury. I cannot believe that any Gentleman has made in good faith the insinuation that they would do otherwise. This is a public matter, and it would be absurd to think that there could be smuggled through Parliament a Clause which was unfair to the rest of the community. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If hon. Members opposite think that that could be done they certainly underrate the ability of the junior Member for the City of London. I assure the Committee that the reasons which justify exceptional treatment in the case of the townships of which Dewsbury is now made up are very similar in character and apply to the same extent as in the case of the Potteries. I have not taken any part in this matter, public or private; nobody has asked me to speak, but after hearing what has been said I could not help feeling that the House ought to know from one Member who is familiar with the district that it is not at all the usual case of a large borough having subordinate areas incorporated with it. There are the same reasons for giving the publicans in this district preferential treatment as have operated in inducing a Committee of this House to give the added parts of the borough of Dewsbury preferential rating for the next fifteen years. I take it that the principle of amalgamation will not be fully consummated until the end of that fifteen years' period. The real question is not whether the principle of levying higher rates for licences in large populous centres than in smaller areas is right or wrong, but whether in this particular case that principle is being equitably applied. Speaking, as I think, with great knowledge and without any prejudice in favour of Dewsbury, I offer the House my sincere opinion that this is an exceptional case, practically, if not quite, on all fours with the Potteries district, and not on all fours with cases like Cambridge or an ordinary large borough which has a few smaller areas added to it. The hon. Member for Kingston referred to the Census. But the Census has nothing to do with the matter. It is only recognising facts which already exist. The real question at issue is whether the principle already laid down by Parliament is being fairly applied in this particular case, and I wish to offer my humble but well-informed opinion that it is.

May I also give my very well informed opinion? If Birmingham and the places which are taken into Birmingham are not treated in the same way as Dewsbury the Government will be doing an immense injustice to the locality which I represent. In my division there is the case of Erdington, which has been an urban district, with from 10,000 to 15,000 inhabitants. According to the original Act, the minimum duty on publicans' licences was £20, and on beer house licences £13. Now that Erdington is to be added to the City of Birmingham the minimum publican's licence will jump up from £20 to £35, and the minimum beer house licence from £13 to £23 10s. I am sorry the hon. Member for Aston Manor (Mr. E. Cecil) is absent through illness. Had he been present he would have spoken for Aston Manor. Personally I can only say that if the Government do not give a pledge that they will treat these districts in the same way as they are treating Dewsbury, I, and other Members on this side, will go all over the country declaring that the Government have been guilty of a very great job. Supposing we had been on the other side of the House, and hon. Members opposite had been criticising us; it would have been in every paper in the country and in every Radical leaflet that the Conservative party, the landlord party, the publicans' party, the licensed victuallers' party, had been guilty of a great injustice. If the Government and the Radical party act as they intend to do at present and do not give justice to Birmingham and the other districts which we represent, they will be guilty of a monstrous injustice. I hope that even at this late hour the Government will give a definite assurance that justice will be done to us who are so deeply affected.

I should like to be satisfied that the case of Dewsbury cannot be met by some general words or by some general principle which would bring in any other case in which the same facts exist. It is well known to many Members that the Brmingnam Bill was said to be a general test Bill and a forerunner of another Bill in which a similar policy would be adopted. To me the case of Birmingham seems very similar to that of Dewsbury, and in future, when these various solar systems have evolved, or the lesser have been swallowed up by the greater or vice versa, we shall have the cases of Birmingham and Dewsbury multiplied. I cannot see why, with the galaxy of legal talent on the Treasury Bench, general words covering the case of Dewsbury could not be drafted. I do not mean to say that there is any unpleasant flavour about mentioning Dewsbury, but it is curious drafting, and a very poor method of drafting to set up as a precedent. I hope that even now the Attorney-General will satisfy us that this case cannot be met by general words. Personally I shall not be able to vote for this proposal unless I am satisfied in that respect.

I hope the Government will see their way to accede to the request made by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Roch). They have got into an untenable position. It will be said all over the country that the town of Dewsbury is being specially favoured because it is represented by a Member of His Majesty's Government. It is impossible for them to get over that difficulty, and I strongly advise them to follow the course sugested by the hon. Member opposite and bring up a clause in general terms. I have handed in an Amendment to this effect:—

"That this provision shall apply in the case of al future extensions of boroughs in a similar manner."
The Chairman has informed me, however, that I could not move that as an Amendment to the Clause; it must be introduced as a new Clause. The difficulty is that if I put down a new Clause it will come at the end, and I shall not get a chance of moving it. I would suggest, therefore, that the Government, having heard the arguments, and, I think, being impressed by the difficulties of their position, should give an undertaking to bring up such a Clause on Report. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about making a distinction between extensions where there is a differential rating and cases where there is not. The Leader of the Opposition broke down that argument completely. The reasons are absolutely the same whatever be the extension. The publican is the same. What does it matter to him whether there is differential rating or not. The principle of differential rating is very common indeed. It is applied in the Committee Rooms almost every week. I had experience of it when in practice in a large city in a case in which we were obliged to give way to the outside areas by agreeing to differential rating for fifteen years. Now that the grievance has been pointed out to the Government I hope that they will meet it. I am told that inside the boundaries of the present town of Cambridge there cannot be any further building. There is no room for it, and the population cannot exceed 50,000. But under the extension which is going on it is to be artificially increased to over 50,000, with the result that the higher scale will apply. That is a grievance which will be felt both inside and outside the town of Cambridge. Therefore, I hope the Government will meet us in a reasonable manner.

The reason, may I once more explain to the Committee, that the Borough of Dewsbury was proposed to be dealt with was not on account of the merits of the particular case, but because our information was that it was the only case. The representations did not come to us from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) but from the publicans of Dewsbury. The representations which were made by the publicans of Dewsbury—who, by the way, are not supporters of the Minister for Education, but are his most bitter opponents—were representations which could have been made by publicans in any other locality similarly situated. That is the sole reason why this particular instance was proposed to be included in the Clause. But I take it that it is the general desire of the Committee that an effort should be made to see whether or not general words should be used in this connection. While I give no pledge upon the subject, the Government are willing to withdraw this Clause, and to see whether or not this principle of differentiation is the right line of discrimination in these cases. If it is, then we will see in what form words, to give effect to that principle, should be embodied in the Bill.

After the criticisms which have been made upon them I am very glad that the Government are practically going to withdraw this Clause. I only want to call attention to one very peculiar point in connection with this case. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that the reason this Clause was put down by the Government had nothing whatever to do with the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Education. He said that it was entirely due to the fact that representations were made to the Government by the publicans of the district. I should like to call attention to a very remarkable fact in connection with this Clause. In the first place the Clause was put down in the name of an hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House, who, I am informed, is the Parliamentary private secretary of the President of the Board of Education. It is still down in his name. Apparently this story about the representations of the publicans of Dewsbury is all very well, but it certainly came first from the Gentleman I have mentioned. No doubt the private secretary came to the President of the Board of Education, and the President naturally used his influence in order to back up his private secretary, to back up the publicans whose vote he hoped to get. But let us be quite clear about this. Does not the action of the Government, the representations to the Government, come to this: That the Government take up a private Member's clause, that private Member happening to be private secretary to a Minister who happens to represent the particular town to which this particular Clause happens to apply. It is a most extraordinary set of coincidences, because we are assured by the right hon. Gentleman that the President of the Board of Education had nothing whatever to do with it.

I did not say so. I said that the representations were initiated by the publicans of Dewsbury. They naturally went to their Member of Parliament, as publicans in any place would do. Of course, the President was acquainted with all the circumstances of the case.

Then apparently it was intended that the publicans should be backed up, and powerfully backed up, by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Education. That only makes the whole thing worse. I want to understand how it was that these arguments were put forward. When they were brought before the House of Commons they were found to be so weak that the right hon. Gentleman himself could not support them—and there is no more ingenious arguer than the right hon. Gentleman. He had to give way. I listened to the observations of the hon. Gentleman behind him. After having supported the right hon. Gentleman he has run away! He said that my right hon. Friend below me knew nothing whatever about the case. My observation to that is that I think ignorance is far better than knowledge, because the hon. Gentleman opposite only produced arguments that I confess I could not understand at all. The argument of the hon. Gentleman who knew all about it was an argument which proved exactly the converse of the circumstances of the case which the right hon. Gentleman got up to defend. I have been very interested in hearing these arguments, for I must say that if the Government were going to do something for one of the distinguished Members of their Cabinet they might, to support it, produce arguments more plausible.

I raise no objection to the Government withdrawing this particular Clause. That may be the right course for them to adopt. But I should very seriously object, so far as my own opinion was concerned, to our sliding away from this particular case of Dewsbury, which can be, I think, distinguished on certain grounds, into the general principle, as I understand, that wherever you have differential rating in future you are going to differentiate the Licence Duties in districts such as we are dealing with. I see absolutely no grounds for such action, and I sincerely hope the Government will not adopt that principle at all. What is the principle on which minimum Licence Duties can be justified? I imagine it is this: that in populations of particular areas where licensed premises form part of a given community you may expect such an amount of trade that it is but a fair and proper thing to require a minimum payment to the State as partial compensation for damage done by licensed premises, and as some guarantee that they should not be more numerous than is desirable for the State as a whole. If that is the principle, as I imagine it is, the mere fact of amalgamation means that these licensed premises in the district which are brought into the area are really part of the larger community and ought to pay those minimum Licence Duties which this House has, in the Finance Act, thought proper for populations which, by the fact of amalgamation, it is admitted that they form a part of. To say that in future, on the mere grounds of differential rating, you are going to differentiate the tax, would, I think, cause great grievance and be manifestly unfair.

Obviously there will be difficulties where-ever you draw the line. But why differentiate in reference to the rating? I believe it almost invariably is the case that this differentiation of rating is conceded because it is necessary to concede it in order to get amalgamation through, and for no other reason whatever. That is part of the bargaining which goes on. Therefore, I see absolutely no grounds whatever for differentiation in the case of Licence Duties, and I sincerely hope the Government is not going in future to say that in all these cases where there is differentiation of rating the Licence Duties are themselves going to be differentiated. What is the only ground on which you can justify special exemption? Take the case of Stoke. Stoke, we remember, was a point during the Debates on the Finance Act in 1909–10, because Stoke was in process of amalgamation when the Budget was actually passing through the House of Commons. It was perfectly fair, I think, for Stoke to come forward and say: "Here is an arrangement being made over our heads, before we have realised what is involved in the amalgamation. In this measure now passing into law we make our special bargain, our special compact in the circumstances of the case." In the case of Dewsbury, it seems to me to be mainly a question of date. The confirmation Order is apparently dated 31st March, 1910, just about when, I daresay, there may have been a great deal of uncertainty as to whether the Finance Act was to be passed into law or not. In that case, owing to the doubt as to whether the Finance Act would pass or not, there may be a case for the special exemption of Dewsbury, but I must end as I began by saying that I most sincerely trust that the Government is not going to give a general exemption. Take the case of Birmingham. When the amalgamation was brought forward we heard not a single word of this. It must have been in some of our minds. Certainly it was in my mind. Surely it was in the minds of those interested in the licensed premises of Birmingham when the Act was passed. Not one word of special circumstances was mentioned. The arguments put forward possibly justify the exemption of Stoke, and perhaps also the case of Dewsbury. If the Government withdraw this Clause perhaps they will find that that is the best way out of the difficulty.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause—(Extension Of The Right To Claim Exemptions, Etc, From Income Tax In Certain Cases To Widows Resident Abroad Who Are In Receipt Of Pensions)

The proviso to Sub-section (1) of Section 71 of the principal Act (which gives the right to persons resident abroad to claim relief, exemption, or abatement from Income Tax in certain cases) shall apply to a widow who is in receipt of a pension chargeable with Income Tax and granted to her in consideration of the employment of her late husband in the service of the Crown as it applies to the persons described in the proviso.

Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Clause be read a second time."

Our proposal here is a simple act of justice to a very limited class of persons. If the Committee look at Section 71 of the principal Act they will see there that the power was for a long time held to be inherent in the Treasury to absolve certain persons from the payment of these taxes. The power was an extra-statutory one, though not, I believe, much exercised. It was finally abrogated under the terms of Section 71 of the principal Act. No person could get relief wholly or partially from the payment of any tax if they were resident out of the United Kingdom and if their total income from all sources brought it within the operation of the Act itself. Exemption was given by the first Sub-section in the case of certain Civil and Crown servants. The Clause which I will now move is going to extend that exemption in the case of widows of Crown servants—I will not call them Civil servants, because it would apply to Naval and Military officers as well as Civil servants—who are in receipt of an Imperial pension—not a Colonial pension—and whose total income, from whatever source, whether chargeable or not to Income Tax is within the statutory limit. The particular reason for introducing this Clause is that there are a very small class of persons, widows of Colonial soldiers who fought in the South African War, and who are in receipt of very small pensions from Imperial funds, and who have to pay Income Tax because they are resident outside the United Kingdom. This Clause will relieve them of the payment of that tax and remove a cause of injustice which. I am sure, the whole Committee would desire to remove.

I am in entire sympathy with the object the right hon. Gentleman has in view. I hope the right hon. Gentleman is right in thinking that the Clause will effect the purpose he desires; but I think the intentions of the Government, as expressed by him, are narrower than what is actually expressed in the principal Act. The Proviso in the principal Act deals with:—

"Any person who is or has been employed in the service of the Crown or who is employed in the service of any missionary society abroad or in the service of any of the native States under the protectorate of the British Crown."

Surely that does not refer to the widows of servants of the Crown in the Dominions or Colonies, where the salary is controlled directly or indirectly by this House. I do not think the words of the Clause are sufficient, and certainly the words of the principle Act are not sufficient.

If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the concluding words he will find that the Clause applies to payment from Imperial sources, and persons described in the Proviso of the principle Act.

I do not think so. I think, under the provisions of the original Act, it did not matter from what source the pension was drawn, provided it was under the limit the recipient was entitled to the abatement. The principle Act provided only for abatement if the person resided out of the United Kingdom, and by the Proviso certain exceptions were made to that exception, and what I am calling attention to is, the case of persons who had been in the service of the Crown but who lived practically the whole of their lives abroad, and brought up their children there, and who would not at the age of sixty or later, when they retired, desire to break with the surroundings and conditions of a lifetime, and leave their children and return to this country. It would be very hard to expect them to do so, and it was to meet their case however arising, provided it arises in the service of the Crown, and it did not matter if it was only a portion of the service under the Crown controlled by this House or other portion of the service to the Crown controlled by the advice of other Ministers, other than those who sit in this House that I intervene.

I think this Clause was put down to meet the case raised by Clause of mine lower down on the Paper. This Clause does not seem to me to go far enough. As I understand it, the exemption in this Clause only applies to pensions which widows receive on the death of their husbands. The original exemption in Section 71 of the principal Act applies to the whole of such incomes. I cannot see if a man has been in the service of the Crown and for reasons of his own lived abroad when he left the service, why, when his widow succeeds him and has to keep a family upon a smaller income after a deduction of Death Duties and other charges she should not have the same exemption as her husband possessed. According to the Clause of the Government she will only receive abatement on that part of the income which is derived from his pension. If she happens to be the widow of someone who has been in the service of the Crown in such a way that she would not be entitled to a pension she would not get any advantage from the Clause. There are a large number of officials under the Crown who hold their salaries with pensions to themselves when they retire, but without any part of the pension being continued to the widows. If that be so the widows of officers in such circumstances will receive no benefit at all from this Clause. I venture to think that my Clause covers the case very much better than the Government Clause, because that simply extends the exemption to the widows of all those people exempt under the original Act.

I think the extensions which we give to widows covers the case of all persons in the employment of the Crown in whatever part of the world they may be employed as long as the pension is one founded upon the resources of this country and controlled by this House. If it was not a pension controlled by this House it would not be chargeable for income tax. It is only in respect of that we give relief. If a person has income arising from a foreign State or British possession which does not pay Income Tax, that income is to be calculated in the total income the person receives, and that may bring them outside the relief given them by this Clause. That is to say, the whole income is to be calculated as the whole income of the persons resident in this country is. We give them relief to which they are not entitled at present; we do not give them any relief that the people of this country are not entitled to also.

I beg to move to leave out the words "to a widow who is in receipt of a pension chargeable with Income Tax and granted to her in consideration of the employment of her late husband in the service of the Crown as it applies to the persons described in the proviso," and to insert instead thereof the words "to the widow of any person mentioned in the said proviso."

On a point of Order, I think the right hon. Gentleman could not move that Amendment because it would at once raise a charge not covered by the Money Resolutions. I venture to take that objection before I meet the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman.

I submit on the contrary it relieves the taxpayers of the charge, and that we are always entitled to do.

I do not think the Amendment means any increased charge. It seems to me that the Amendment would be a relief to the taxpayer, and it is therefore quite in order.

The Amendment would make the new Clause apply to widows of any persons mentioned in the proviso. As my hon. Friend pointed out the new Clause of the Government is very much narrower than the old proviso of the principal Act. Under the principal Act you allow Civil servants or other servants of the Crown resident abroad, relief on the whole of their income provided they are small enough to justify it. You only propose now to allow similar relief to the widow on such part of the income as is represented by the pension drawn by the husband formerly. I shall be very glad to know if I interpret the words of the Government Clause too narrowly. The widow must be in receipt of a pension. Any person who is or has been in the service of the Crown shall be entitled to relief. There is no necessity, therefore, for being in receipt of a pension. There are cases where there may not be any receipt of a pension, but certainly the person is not likely on that account to be better off. I think that is a point which affects very few people, and has very little effect upon the Exchequer, but I wish the Government would put their new Clause into exactly the same form as the proviso. What I am asking is, first of all, that a pension should not be necessary to qualify for a relief which would otherwise be given upon the income, and that, in the second place. relief should not be confined in the new Clause to income of servants of the Crown, but should be extended to widows such as those indicated in the Clause of the principal Act to those obliged to serve abroad or to native States under the Protectorate of the British Crown, and to any person resident in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. I am quite ready to do a deal with the Government if they will do a deal with me. Will they give it to the persons who have been in the service of the Crown, whether they have pensions or not?

Why? You say that a man may have this concession under any circumstances, and why should the widow not have it unless she has a pension. Upon what conceivable grounds of equity or justice can you do that. I am willing to put my Amendment in a more limited form, but if the Government are not prepared to make any concession it is not worth my while to explain the matter.

It is not possible for the Government to accept this Amendment. If a man goes abroad for the sake of his health and dies, and his widow remains there, she is not there for the sake of her health, and there is no reason why you should grant the exemption to her which you granted under special circumstances. What in substance is done by the Sub-section is to grant the same measure of relief as in the proviso. But it confines the relief given to the Civil servant or the widows of Civil servants and servants of the Crown.

Surely the hon. and learned Gentleman is confusing the points which I raised. It is not necessary for the widow to have a pension. If she has £20 a year from investments in this country that would be charged with Income Tax, but if she lived in this country she would be exempt. If she lives abroad where her husband lived and died, then she will be chargeable. I do not stand by the words of my Amendment, but what I ask the Government to do is to remove the necessity for her qualifying by the receipt of a pension for relief which she would otherwise get.

I understand what my right hon. Friend desires is that the widow whose husband is dead should come under the same exemption her husband came under, and that she should be entitled to the same benefit. It is quite possible that the words proposed by my right hon. Friend go too far, and what the Attorney-General has pointed out is quite right upon the terms of the Clause itself. A widow in receipt of a pension gets no benefit at all. I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to consider, apart from these particular words, if a widow under these conditions is abroad subject to the same limitation as her husband while alive she ought to have the same advantage which he enjoyed whether she is in receipt of a pension or not. I suggest to the Attorney-General that this is a proposal half-way between the Clause as it stands and the proposal of my right hon. Friend.

I cannot understand the justice of this proposal. The idea is to exempt the widow of a person who has been in the service of the Crown. By this Clause you exempt one and leave another without any relief at all. Where can justice come in unless you are going to carry out in favour of the widow exactly the same exemption as Section 71 gave to their husbands before they died. It is difficult to draft an Amendment at the moment, but I should have thought the Government might be willing to accept an Amendment which went as far as their own proposals down to the word "widow" and then insert the words "any person who has been in the service of the Crown abroad." If the widow comes home she gets the exemption anyhow. If you want to do justice at all you must make the exemption co-extensive with Section 71 of the original Act. There must be widows whose husbands' pensions die with them.

Those widows are worse off than those who have got a pension or some portion continued to them after their husbands' death. Why are you going to cut them out? I suggest that this is a very small amount, and the Government might as well treat the matter in a generous way instead of the niggardly manner they are proposing.

The widow is to be exempt from Income Tax, as she would have been exempt in this country. We propose in the case of a pension controlled and payable from the funds of this House to the widow of any person abroad that such a pension should be exempt. If the widow chooses to live abroad, although she may be the widow of a servant of the Crown, she may think she is better off. If she gets her income from investments here and chooses to live abroad, I do not see why she should not pay Income Tax. She gets the security of this country for her investments, and she ought to contribute towards the safety and good government of the country in which her savings are invested. I really do not see why she should not contribute a small sum for that purpose. We think we have given a substantial relief to the persons who draw a pension and whose resources are small. I do not think we ought to go further than that. Those are the principles upon which I think we ought to proceed.

The right hon. Gentleman has misstated what the Government are doing. He does not understand what the Government themselves are doing, and, consequently, he has given me an answer that will not hold water. He says that the Government in the principal Act decided that where a man spent his life in the service of his country abroad he should not forfeit the relief that he would obtain in this country by reason of the smallness of his income because he continued to live abroad. We ask that the widow of that man should be given exactly the same relief, and the right hon. Gentleman says that the Government propose that if she draws a pension controlled by this House she shall have relief in respect of that pension, but not otherwise shall she be relieved.

Apparently the hon. Member does not know the principal Act. If an officer after retiring from the service of the Crown continues to live abroad, having been obliged by his service to live abroad, he is entitled to this relief during his lifetime.

The hon. Member is quite mistaken, for it is not only on his pension. It depends purely on the fact whether his income is so small that if he were living at home in this country he would get relief. We ask that the same privilege should be extended to the widow. The right hon. Gentleman says the policy of the Government is to extend it to any pension drawn by the widow which is controlled by this House, but not any further. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury mis-stated the Government case. If the Government's action meant that they could only give relief on a pension they would be consistent in saying where the widow has no pension she can have no relief. But the Government say they give relief on all incomes in the case of a man whether he has a pension or not. But in the case of a widow relief is only given on income if there is a pension, and no relief at all if there is not a pension. The probabilities are, other things being equal, that the widow who has no pension will be worse off than the widow who has. They are all people who are poorly off. They all live abroad, and the circumstances of their lives have forced them to live abroad. The Government oblige them to break up their homes. If I am permitted I shall be willing to withdraw my own Amendment and adopt the words proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Bridgeman). I think the Government would only be doing an act of simple justice in conforming to the policy of the principal Act, and unless they accept some Amendment of this kind they will be inflicting hardship in a number of deserving cases.

I will make a suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think I have mis-stated the policy of the Government, though it may not agree with what the right hon. Gentleman thinks ought to be the policy of the Government. I think I have stated it without any sort of mistake at all. The right hon. Gentleman asks for a wider exemption than it is proposed to give, and that is the difference between us. I stated the narrower limits within which we propose to give the exemption, and he has stated the wider ground which he proposes to cover. I am not prepared, I confess, at the present moment, to accept the wider interpretation he desires to give. I hardly like to make a suggestion, but, if he will withdraw the Amendment, I will take an opportunity between now and next Finance Bill, not this, to see what will be the effect of his proposal, and, if I can meet it, I undertake on behalf of my right hon. Friend to do so. I think now, however, I should have to ask the House to reject his proposal. Perhaps he would be as unwilling to get the opinion of the House on that matter as I should be unwilling to be forced to ask the House to reject the Amendment.

I quite admit this matter has been rather sprung on the right hon. Gentleman, and I recognise he is under special difficulties. I do not like to put it off and make it subject to all the vicissitudes of another Budget, but, if the House will allow me, I will withdraw the Amendment at this stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Government have had plenty of time to consider this matter, because I asked a question about it in the House. The answer I met with was that if there was a general opinion in favour of it on all sides of the House, and it was regarded as uncontentious, it would be accepted. I am sorry they did not think of it until the last moment when it was too late, according to them, to introduce it in a Bill of this year. It could have been done perfectly well, but I suppose it is better to have half a loaf than no bread, and therefore I will accept the promise of the right hon. Gentleman, and hope he will carry it through.

I would venture to ask the right hon. Gentleman, as he is going to take this matter into consideration between now and the next Budget, to consider on what ground he can possibly justify exacting from the same income for the Treasury a greater revenue from the widow than he was exacting from the husband while he was alive. That is the effect of the Clause as it stands.

Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.

New Clause—(Amendment As To Ownership Of Securities For The Purpose Of S 71 (2) Of The Principal Act)

When the securities of a Foreign State or British Possession are held under any trust, and the person who is the beneficiary in possession under the trust is the sole beneficiary in possession and can, by means either of the revocation of the trust or of the exercise of any powers under the trust, call upon the trustees at any time to transfer the securities to him absolutely

free from any trust, that person shall be deemed to be the person owning the securities for the purpose of Sub-section (2) of Section seventy-one of the principal Act (which exempts from Income Tax under certain circumstances the interest and dividends of the securities of a Foreign State or British Possession.)—[ Mr. Hobhouse.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The Committee will see, from Section 71, Sub-section (2) of the principal Act, that a person not resident in the United Kingdom who owns securities and is entitled to the interest on them is exempt from Income Tax in the case of such securities as are securities either of a British possession or of a foreign State, if the dividends of those securities are payable in the United Kingdom. We propose that a person who is the sole beneficiary of a trust, and who can also call upon the trustees to transfer the securities to him, shall be deemed to be not merely the beneficiary, but the owner of the securities. Thus he will be brought within the exemption of Section 71, Sub-section (2). Some question might be put to me as to why we are exempting a person who is the sole beneficiary and not giving exemption in the case where there are two beneficiaries of such a trust. The answer is this. A person who is sole beneficiary and controls the Trust is really the master of the trustees in the disposal of the securities of his trust. He being resident abroad, the whole of the income would be payable to him and to nobody else. If there were two beneficiaries, one of whom is resident in the United Kingdom and the other of whom is not resident in the United Kingdom, the trustees might be in difficulties as to the allocation of the interest between the person resident in the United Kingdom and the person resident out of the United Kingdom. Circumstances have arisen which have drawn the attention of the Treasury to this case, and we think equity is met in the case of a sole beneficiary where he is resident out of the United Kingdom if he is treated as the owner as well as the beneficiary and gets the benefit of the exemption under Section 71, Sub-section (2).

I do not object to the Clause, although I do not altogether understand why it has been brought forward. I think it ought to go further, and I do not understand the reason given by the right hon. Gentleman for confining it to a sole beneficiary. The right hon. Gentleman says he is going to confine it to a sole beneficiary because, if there are two beneficiaries, the trustees will have some difficulty in ascertaining whether both of them live out of the United Kingdom or whether one lives in the United Kingdom and the other abroad.

I am afraid I did not make myself clear. I assumed a case where one lived in and the other lived out of the United Kingdom, and said the difficulty was the allocation of the benefit of the exemption.

I really do not see where the difficulty arises, but I do see where an injustice arises. Let me put a concrete case. There is the Under-Secretary for the Home Office sitting there (Mr. Masterman), who is the sole beneficiary of a trust whose funds are invested in the securities of a foreign State or British Possession. He lives out of the country, and he is going to get his income without paying any Income Tax. The right hon. Gentleman himself and the learned Attorney-General are joint beneficiaries under another trust, whose funds are also invested in the securities of a foreign State or British Possession. The hon. and learned Gentleman lives out of the country, and the right hon. Gentleman lives in the country. The hon. and learned Gentleman does not get the exemption which the Under-Secretary gets, because, unfortunately, the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary has also a benefit in the trust. It seems to me you are going to create a very grave injustice if this Clause is allowed to pass in this form. The right hon. Gentleman says it would be very difficult for the trustees to find out what money ought to be subtracted. I do not see it at all. I presume, if this Clause becomes law, the trustees, when a demand is made for Income Tax, will say, "No, we are not going to pay. The sole beneficiary lives out of the United Kingdom, and that complies with the enactments of this Clause." What is to prevent them, if half goes to the right hon. Gentleman and half to the hon. and learned Gentleman, saying there is a beneficiary out of the United Kingdom, and, therefore, we claim not to pay. I see no difficulty whatever, and I think the right hon. Gentleman must, on further consideration, amend this Clause.

I have a further objection to the Clause. I want to ask whether it would not be possible to amend it so that it should read: "When the securities of a foreign State or British Possession are under any Trust the person who is the beneficiary shall be deemed to be the person owning the securities for the purpose of Sub-section (2) of Section 71 of the Principal Act, which exempts from Income Tax under certain circumstances the interest and dividends of the securities of a foreign State or British Possession." I would like to know whether the Government would be prepared to accept an Amendment of that sort. It has come to my knowledge that at present the Inland Revenue authorities are claiming Income Tax in the case of a widow living abroad and owning securities in a foreign State or British Possession, which are held by trustees in England. If these trustees were living abroad, there can be no doubt she would not have to pay Income Tax, but because they live in England the Inland Revenue authorities obtain Income Tax. If it is just that persons who have property in a foreign State or British Possession and live abroad, and who happen to have that property in trust, should be exempt, it is also just that all persons in similar circumstances should be exempt. I think it is really right that the right hon. Gentleman should accept an Amendment which I propose later on to move.

7.0 P.M.

Take the case where both beneficiaries are out of the United Kingdom and come within the Section. Why should they not both have relief? If you leave out the words "is the sole beneficiary in possession and can, by means either of the revocation of the trust or of the exercise of any powers under the trust, call upon the trustees at any time to transfer the securities to him absolutely free from any trust," you will have a very simple Clause which will cover that case. Cases where a beneficiary has the right to revoke the whole trust or to have the securities transferred to him are rare. I suppose in ninety-nine cases out of 100 there is no such power, and I do not see why the limitation should be put in the Clause. Why should you not leave out the words, "and can, by means either of the revocation of the trust or of the exercise of any powers under the trust, call upon the trustees at any time to transfer the securities to him absolutely free from any Trust"? Then the Clause would cover the everyday case of a life tenant under a trust. Surely that is the exact case intended to be covered. This Clause will cover very few cases indeed. I think it has been framed for the purpose of covering one particular case, and I am always suspicious of clauses of that kind. I would rather far see a Clause which meets general conditions.

The Clause is intended to cover cases of a very rare kind. It is intended to cover that particular class of case in which foreign securities are held in trust for a beneficiare abroad by trustees residing in this country. It might be extended to further cases, but I that is a question of policy. It is a question how far we are prepared to make the extension. We realise, under the circumstances, that, in this particular case, the beneficiaire can revoke the trust and take the securities out of the country to deal with it in the way proposed. But we are not prepared to accept the suggestion to extend the exemption.

Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.

I beg to move to leave out the word "and" ["and the person who is the beneficiaire"] and to leave out the words ["the sole beneficiary in possession and can, by means either of the revocation of the trust or of the exercise of any powers under the trust, call upon the trustees at any time to transfer the securities to him absolutely free from any trust that person."]

As I said just now, there have been cases where people who are resident abroad—and I have in my mind the case of a widow lady who holds the securities of a foreign State—who would not be liable to Income tax if it were not for the fact that the securities were held for them by trustees living in England. The right hon. Gentleman proposes to exempt a certain class of people who are in this position. He says he is going to do it because they are so few, and it will not have very much effect on the revenue. But surely he must consider justice as well as revenue. I do not think he will put revenue before justice, and if he chooses to exempt certain people under certain circumstances it is no argument to say that he cannot exempt more people because it will cost money to do so. If it is right in one instance it must be right in another. I do not know why, if the law can be altered in the particular case of persons whose securities are held by trustees resident in this country, it cannot be altered in the case of others who are equally disadvantaged because their money happens to be not in English securities but in foreign securities held by trustees resident in England. The position of the Attorney-General is that he has begun to alter the law. If he had left the law as it stood he might have said there were reasons against this exemption for people who choose to leave money in England in the hands of trustees, and therefore he would exempt them from Income Tax. But having altered the law in one case, he cannot refuse to alter it in another where the arguments are equally good. If he cannot now accept my Amendment perhaps he will give me an answer to it to-morrow on the Report stage. If he will undertake to do that I may be inclined to withdraw it for the present; otherwise, it may be necessary to press it to a division.

The hon. Baronet proposes to extend the operation of the Act. I do not wish to repeat the arguments I advanced at an earlier stage. We cannot extend the limitations as suggested.

Question, "That those words stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.

New Clause—(Excise)

In lieu of the Excise Duties payable on tobacco grown within the United Kingdom, which are specified in Part II. of the Fourth Schedule of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, there shall be charged, levied, and paid one-half part of such duties by any person holding an Excise licence to grow tobacco in the United Kingdom, provided that he can establish to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that such tobacco is to be used for the manufacture of sheep-dips, insecticides, or for other purely agricultural or horticultural purposes. The Commissioners of Customs and Excise shall have power to make regulations to secure this object similar to the regulations issued under Section eighty-three of the Finance Act, 1910.—[ Mr. Laurence Hardy.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for the Ashford Division of Kent (Mr. Laurence Hardy) I have to propose this new Clause. It is a very simple one. We wish to reduce by one-half the Excise licence on tobacco grown in the United Kingdom, provided it can be shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that such tobacco is to be used for the manufacture of sheep-dips, insecticides, or for other purely agricultural or horticultural purposes. I think on reference to Part 2, Schedule 4, of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, it will be found that in one case the duty is to be reduced from 3s. 6d. to 1s. 9d., and in the other case from 3s. 11d. to 1s. 11d. per pound. After all it is only a small concession we are asking for, and I hope the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be able to grant it. It is a concession which affects a very large number of people who have a licence to grow tobacco in the United Kingdom at the present time.

I informed the hon. Member earlier in the evening that he would be allowed to move the Clause standing in the name of another hon. Member, but it has since occurred to me that it is rather hard for other hon. Members who are here in their place and ready to move their Clauses that I should allow an hon. Member who has not given notice of this particular Clause to move it before them.

Yes, that is the exact point. The hon. Member has given notice further down, and, therefore, he is getting precedence by bringing in the Clause for another hon. Member, instead of waiting for his own turn. It is, perhaps, a new point, but it is a question whether it is fair to hon. Members who are here.

Is there not a clear and definite rule of this House on this subject? I understood that in Committee anybody could move an Amendment or Clause of which notice had been given, but that on the Report stage the Member must be in his place to move his own Clause. I speak on matters of procedure in this House subject to correction and with great diffidence, because I have learnt that however long one sits here one comes to realise that he has not learnt all the rules of the House. But I think it is a clear right of any Member in Committee to move a Clause if notice of it appears on the Paper, and it is only when we come to the Report stage that it is required that the hon. Member in whose name the Clause stands must be present. If that has been the practice of the House without question up to this time I think it might act unfairly if, without notice, that practice was suddenly altered in the course of this Debate. The hon. Member in whose name the Clause stands might very well have gone away, believing that at this stage the subject could be raised by another hon. Member and that it would not be prejudiced by his not actually being in his place. I admit there are great difficulties, and that this is rather a new situation, but I submit, if I am right about the habitual practice of the House, it ought not to be changed without notice.

My right hon. Friend is quite right, but he has not gone far enough. My recollection is that in Committee one can move any Clause without notice, but on the Report stage it is absolutely necessary to give notice. In Committee it is not so. Anybody can get up and move a new Clause if it happens to be in order, and, that being so, it follows, as a matter of course, that if a Clause stands in the name of one hon. Member who does not happen to be present any other hon. Member can get up to move it.

It may not be within your knowledge that the hon. Member in whose name this particular Clause stands was under the impression that the rule is as stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire, and he asked my hon. Friend to move this Clause for him.

It did occur to me whether it was quite fair to other hon. Members who had later Clauses to call upon the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Wheler) to move a Clause of which he did not happen to have given notice at that particular stage, but the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire has put to me the practice of this House. Although I have been over five years in the Chair I do not remember passing over a Clause which another Member desired to move, and that being the case I shall not do so on this occasion. I will ask the hon. Member to proceed to move it.

I may explain that the hon. Member for the Ashford Division wrote to me requesting me to move this Clause. It does not ask a very great concession from the Government, but at the same time it will undoubtedly encourage a considerable number of agriculturists and tobacco-growers in various parts of the United Kingdom. I think we can make it perfectly clear to the satisfaction of the Commissioners that this tobacco, the growth of which we want to see encouraged by a lightening of the duties, is not the sort of tobacco that is used for smoking purposes. It has been proved by experiment that the class of tobacco suitable for smoking should possess but a small percentage of nicotine. The quality of tobacco which is affected by this Clause is such that it will have a high percentage of nicotine. It is a coarse sort of tobacco. It is unsuitable for smoking, but. at the same time, it is valuable for various purposes connected with agriculture. The price of nicotine has risen very high and it has been getting higher and higher. It is very efficient for agricultural purposes, especially for the killing of insects and it is also specially valuable as a wash for the benefit of fruit trees and hop plants. It is the only vegetable product from which this kind of wash can be obtained, and in the case of fruit, hops, and other things of that sort, it is most essential that the wash used as an insecticide should come from a vegetable as distinct from a mineral product. Therefore, anything which can be done by encouraging the cultivation of this cheap coarse tobacco towards cheapening the supply of nicotine will be in the direction of an encouragement to agriculturists generally, and fruit and hop growers. It would also give the farmers a better supply for the purposes of sheep dip. That is my case.

I do not want to take up much time, realising as I do the enormous amount of discussion which will have to take place on the various Clauses to-night, but I would ask the Government to accept this Clause. It is not a very great concession, but it is one which will be very willingly and gratefully accepted by agriculturists and farmers. Experiments have been made in California in reference to the mineral washes, and it has been shown that where various trees have been treated with them the washes have the effect of poisoning the ground and killing the trees. In the case of a wash made from nicotine, however, this is not the case, nor does the foliage suffer, and it has the effect of improving the fruit of the tree as it kills the insects upon it. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, to accept this new Clause because I am certain that the loss of revenue to the Government would be very small, but on the other hand it would encourage the National Fruit Growers' Association and other kindred societies who are keen on improving our crops of fruit, and especially apples. On behalf of those who wish to see agriculture more prosperous than it is I beg to ask the Government to accept this Clause.

I should like to support this Amendment, being associated with a totally different part of the country to that from which the hon. Member who moved it comes. Living as I do in a fruit-growing district and representing perhaps the most famous sheep raising district in the whole of England, I should like to emphasize the increasing advantages which are shewn to accrue from the use of washes of this sort for spraying trees, and also with the object of preventing what is becoming an increasing curse to this country, namely, sheep scab. As regards fruit trees, it has been found very difficult in the past to discover an insecticide which can be used during the spring and summer months, and which will not have a burning effect upon the foliage mostly owing to these insecticides being of a mineral and a highly corrosive character. Nicotine and other products of tobacco have been found free from these defects, and do not injure the trees while nicotine cures sheep scab more effectively than anything else. The use of nicotine has enabled the New Zealand farmers to eradicate sheep scab from New Zealand. It is known from experiments which have been made in Ireland that it is perfectly easy to grow tobacco in certain parts of this country, particularly in those parts where fruit can most easily and productively be raised. This Amendment does not ask anything of a revolutionary character, because it is open to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to see definitely whether the sort of tobacco which is being grown is tobacco which can be of any other use than those for which we desire this exemption.

As a matter of fact it is quite possible for the Commissioners or for the Treasury to select certain classes of tobacco which can be grown in Ireland, and presumably could be grown in this country which are wholly unfit for smoking altogether. In addition to that the nicotine which is required for the purposes I have mentioned is produced by a treatment of the leaf which does not involve anything in the nature of curing or fermentation. Therefore it is perfectly easy for the Commissioners to see whether there is any risk to the Excise under the Excise Laws in the use of tobacco for these purposes. I may mention that there is a steadily increasing demand for these purposes for nicotine as compared with other dressings previously used, and for such purposes the scientists are almost unanimous in advocating nicotine as a dressing for fruit trees for the prevention of insect pests. The same thing is the case with regard to the suppression of the insect or organism which brings about sheep scab. For these reasons I do earnestly appeal to the Treasury to make this small concession, especially as it is perfectly easy to discriminate between tobacco used for smoking and that required for these purposes. Owing to the impossibility of growing tobacco in this country because the industry is not permitted under our Excise laws, and owing to the increased demand, the price of nicotine has been going up very much in the last twelve months, during which it has become much more popular. Whereas twelve months ago it cost 12s. a pound, it is now already up to 15s. a pound, and there is evidence that it will go still further in consequence of the advocacy of this particular product by scientific fruit growers in this country. I desire, therefore, to support this Amendment with a strong request to the Secretary to the Treasury to make this small concession.

I desire to say something in support of this Clause on behalf of the fruit-growers of this country. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may think that this proposal is one put down for purposes of obstruction, and they may think it is not very important, but I can assure them that it is of very great importance to a very great number of people in this country. There are about 250,000 acres of land in this country under orchards mainly growing apples, 80,000 under small fruit, and 33,000 under hops, and they are very much subject to destruction by the attacks of insects. The only way to fight these insect pests is to spray with various kinds of insecticides. The winter spray I need not go into, but the summer spray embraces the whole subject of nicotine. The summer spray is of two kinds, one directed to the destruction of the actual insects by contact. This is directed to the pyslla, the aphis, and the red spider. The other kind of spray derives its virtue from its toxic Qualities, and that is used against biting insects, such as the caterpillar and the weevil. Unquestionably it is the fact, and if you ask any fruit grower you will find it is so, that nicotine insecticide is the best for this purpose, because it is the only one which kills both by its contact and by its toxic properties. Consequently you may spray the trees with a wash made from it when they are in full bloom, because it kills the insects without sterilising the pod. I think we are going to have a great boom in English apples, because, after a great number of experiments, the growers have decided the best kind of apples to grow. The chief enemy of apples is the Psylla, and it has been estimated that spraying kills 90 per cent. of them.

If we could get rid of the insect pests which prey upon apples we should it is estimated double the crop in this country. There is an enormous increase in production and when we consider that the large number of a quarter of a million acres is given over to apples there is here a possible source of great profit to the agricultural community. Expense is the only reason why the growers do not use nicotine and the reason for that expense is growth of demand over supply. Nicotine is manufactured out of the refuse of tobacco, and the only material the manufacturers get are the stalks and midribs of the leaf. The price has risen very considerably in the last twelve months, and I am told that that is due to the action of the 1909 Budget, the extra duty on tobacco having forced manufacturers of tobacco to use more of the refuse for the manufacture of the cheaper forms than they did before, and so leaving less refuse for the manufacturers of nicotine. The result is that the growers are using less to spray their crops with in this country, and to the small man the price is absolutely prohibitive. This means that the crop suffers and there is less production. Very often the small man was able to pay his rent if he had a successful crop from even a few apple trees, and, therefore, this question is important. I have been working out the results of experiments at Wye and by Colonel Everard and by myself in the Vale of Evesham, and I think we could produce nicotine at about 3s. per liquid pound instead of 11s., not allowing for cost of extraction. That would be a great benefit to the whole of the fruit-growing industry. I have tried to make out a good case for the real need of the cheap supply of nicotine. It will benefit thousands of men, it will give a great impetus to the whole fruit industry, and particularly to the apple industry, and it would be easy for the Government to devise a system of allowing us to grow this tobacco Excise free, whereby they would not lose a farthing in revenue, and if they did this they would be granting a very real boon to a most worthy industry.

I think there is every reason to believe that this Clause if adopted by the Government, instead of diminishing the revenue will actually increase it. The stimulus which it would give to the industry of raising this crude form of tobacco would be so substantial that in a very short time the actual revenue would be greater than it is now. It would, moreover, be the means of giving employment to a large number of men engaged in cultivating the land, and it would materially benefit another important industry. On these grounds I urge the right hon. Gentleman to accept this moderate proposal.

The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Eyres-Monsell) said something about this Clause being regarded as an obstructive Clause. No such thought crossed my mind, nor, as far as I know, the mind of anyone on this side of the House, and I am perfectly certain that his speech was a model of brevity and conciseness, on which I congratulate him. The object of the Clause, as I understand it, is that home-grown tobacco, if used for agricultural or horticultural purposes, should only pay one half the duty which is charged upon foreign-grown tobacco in respect of Customs. The hon. Member went on to say that if he and his friends were only allowed to grow tobacco free there would be an immense reduction in the cost of certain nicotine preparations which are essential to horticultural purposes. I understand the present position to be this. The nicotine manufacturers use, largely, foreign-grown tobacco, and in respect of that tobacco they are allowed a drawback which in practice comes to something like 4s. a pound. The nicotine is made from offal, which in itself comes from the stalk. The stalk, being the heaviest part of the tobacco, pays on an average a rather larger proportion of duty than the ordinary leaf, which comes in at the Customs rate of 3s. 8d. The manufacturer, getting a drawback of about 4s. in the pound upon his offal, practically uses foreign-grown tobacco free of Customs duty. That is the net result of rather a complicated set of transactions. If, therefore, he charges an excessive price to the person who consumes the nicotine portion, he does so, not in respect of any duty upon his raw material, but either because he has a limited competition or because he has a very large market in which he can sell his products, and the action of the Customs Department in no way affects the price at which he retails his commodities to the public.

Nicotine is now manufactured in bond, and they do not pay any duty on the tobacco that goes into the nicotine. They only make it out of the midribs and the stalks, and it is a very limited quantity. I want it to be grown in this country in order that it may be made out of the leaf.

The proposal of the hon. Members (Mr. Eyres-Monsell and Mr. Wheler) is that they shall be allowed to use home-grown tobacco for the same purpose as foreign-grown tobacco is now used for, only paying one-half of the Customs duty. Under the Tobacco Manufacturing Act of 1863, which I am told is one of the most difficult Acts in the world to construe, and the Amendments to which have rendered it more complicated and almost more unintelligible than any other Act of Parliament, there is nothing in the regulations which prevents the growers of home tobacco from denaturing it in approved premises under Excise restrictions, the tobacco being then issued to the manufacturer duty free. There is nothing to prevent that being done, except that there is no tobacco grown in this country which can be so treated. There is a certain amount of tobacco grown in Ireland and there are one or two experiments being conducted, I believe, in Scotland on a very limited scale, and in this country there is no home-grown tobacco. That is the first difficulty in the way of realising what the hon. Gentleman wishes to do. He has, therefore, first of all to stimulate the growth of tobacco in this country.

Within a few miles of where I live a friend of mine grew a very considerable amount. It was all destroyed after a certain time, but the experiment shows that tobacco could be easily grown.

Perhaps the hon. Member has forgotten that under the Finance Act of last year and also under the Act for which the hon. Member (Mr. William Redmond) was responsible, tobacco may now be cultivated in this country and sold with the ordinary Excise restrictions, so that the difficulty which existed several years ago no longer exists. What the hon. Member has to do is to persuade his friend to repeat his experi- ments. If he brings his crop to maturity and can cure it, he can take it to approved premises, and it will be there denatured. There is nothing at present to prevent it. The tobacco can then be issued to the manufacturers duty free, and the result will be that if there is any lack of material for these nicotine preparations the difficulty will be with the agriculturists, and I have no doubt if it promises to be a profitable experiment there will be plenty of people who will be prepared to undertake it. But, as a matter of fact, this Clause, as it stands, would impose upon them a penalty which need not exist at the present moment. It would charge them half rates, whereas under the existing regulations there is nothing to prevent them getting their commodity without any payment at all. Therefore, from the point of view of hon. Gentlemen opposite, they had better not try to bring the Clause into operation, because they will defeat the purpose they have in view.

We should be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman if he will give a little more consideration to the subject in consultation with the Excise authorities to see whether they cannot facilitate the object which is desired by everyone who has considered the matter at all. No doubt, subject to various rather difficult arrangements, the tobacco used for the production of nicotine may escape duty. I think where the nicotine is made out of the refuse of tobacco imported in the ordinary way for smoking purposes into large factories and bonded warehouses, and then issuing from those factories where people have to be in close touch with the Excise authorities, it is very simple to comply with the regulations. I think it is much less easy for the individual farmer who does not know anything of the Excise, and does not want to if he can avoid it, and I think it is one of the cases where the Government ought always to lend a ready ear to anyone who complains that their regulations are unnecessarily strict. I only desire to press on the Government, and through them, on the Excise authorities, the necessity for saving the grower and producer from trouble, even if it is going to cost them something. As long as we regarded tobacco as a thing which cannot be grown in this country, of course we had no consideration for the producer. That very restriction itself killed the trade which was in existence at the time, and it was put on purely in the interests of the revenue. I think the revenue has a great deal to make up to the tobacco trade, and they must be more than usually conciliatory in this matter. I agree with the Government that whilst we have had a very useful discussion on this Clause, the Clause would not produce the results that we desire to have produced. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman is right in saying it would in fact tax this home-grown tobacco used for making nicotine, even where it now escapes, and that is certainly not the result that we wish. Everyone in this House wishes that that tobacco should escape in all cases, and that it should be made as easy for it to escape as possible without endangering the revenue. I do not believe that is difficult if the Government will really turn their attention to the matter.

Might I suggest that the best thing to do, seeing that all that is desired can be done under the law, when the tobacco is used for curing purposes, is that the right hon. Gentleman will promise if he receives representations from those interested as to any practical alteration of the existing regulation, to give his earnest consideration to the suggestions of the amendment to the regulations, which will allow the industry to be carried on with greater facilities than at present.

Certainly. Persons interested in a particular trade have access to Government Departments, and if the hon. Gentleman or any of his Friends interested in the matter care to make representations to me, I shall be very glad to consider what they have to say, and to see what can be done to meet their wishes.

I wish it could be made plainer to agriculturists what position they are in now. I certainly do not understand what they can do, and, if it can be made plain by regulations issued from the Treasury to many agriculturists who want this solely for the purpose of insecticide, it would be a great benefit to agriculturists as a whole.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will take some opportunity of communicating with me, and I will look into the matter.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause—(Assessment Of Increment Value Duty On Agricultural Land)

For purposes of ascertaining Increment Value Duty on agricultural land that has come into the category of building land, no increased agricultural value, due to the efforts or expenditure of the cultivator, shall be taken into account when levying increment value.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The Clause is proposed in the interest of market gardeners, who, I think, will not receive fair or just treatment under Clause 7 of the principal Act passed in 1910. I do not pretend to be an expert in land valuation, but I think I may be allowed to speak for market gardeners, because in Worcestershire I represent by far the largest centre of market gardeners in the country. We have in the Vale of Evesham nearly 30,000 acres of land devoted to market gardening. I have been anxious since the Budget was introduced to put in a plea for market gardeners, but I have been afraid that they would be treated by hon. Members opposite as people whose hard case was brought forward in the same way as the case of widows and orphans is sometimes referred to. I can assure hon. Gentlemen that that is not so. When the subject of market gardening is raised in this House it is generally dismissed by an airy allusion to cabbage patches. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is one of the offenders, and I am very sorry the right hon. Gentleman is not in the House, because I think he would sympathise with my Clause. It puts in words what he has often said he is in favour of, but what the Bill entirely fails to give effect to. I think the Committee will understand that the important industry of market gardening cannot be dismissed with references to cabbage patches. It is the highest state of cultivation. The money put into it, and the energy put forth by those engaged in it result in the highest development of the land, and it pays more money than any other branch of agricultural industry. Under Clause 7 of the 1910 Act, I think it is a fact that market gardeners may be taxed on value which they themselves have created. On 20th April last year the Leader of the Opposition put the case in a nutshell, and it was not contradicted then. I will restate the case very briefly. Land used for market gardening is valued as regards site value at £50, as at the end of April, 1909. It is worked up in value by the market gardener to a purely agricultural value of £80. That increase is due to his work on the land, and it is also very much due to the manure he has put into the land. There is a point where that land enters the category of building land, and it may be sold for £100. He is charged Increment value, and that is assessed, not on the final agricultural value, but on the original site value of £50. It is assessed in respect of £30, which is due entirely to his own efforts on the land. That was not contradicted last year, and I do not think it can be contradicted at the present moment. I think the Committee will agree that it is very unfair that a man should be taxed in this way on his own improvements and expenditure.

The "Westminster Gazette," I think, said that this vas a fair case, but that it was a very exceptional one. Market gardening is not exceptional. It is very common. This rise in purely agricultural value is the natural outcome of intensive cultivation, of the work put into the land, and particularly of the manuring of the land. The purely agricultural value of the land is raised to a very large extent by those means, and I could show many examples of it in my own Constituency. Last April the Chancellor of the Exchequer tried to steer clear of this case of manuring. He said he would rather take the example of draining the land. Naturally he would, because the amount of money spent in draining agricultural land is allowed for in assessing increment value. I say that the value put into the land in manure should be included. Clause 25, paragraph (b) provides for the deduction to be allowed for improvements on the land for the purpose of business, trade, or industry other than agriculture. All the Amendments previously put down to Clause 7 have been objected to by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, on the plea that we are trying to drive a coach and four through the Act. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am not trying to do anything of that sort at all. I am trying to remove an undoubted hardship which presses on a very deserving class. I appeal to the Committee to accept this Clause on the ground that it will remove an obvious injustice upon a large and deserving class of the agricultural community, namely, the market gardeners—men who give the best example of the "back to the land" movement which hon. Gentlemen opposite very often talk about, and to which by supporting this Clause they will give practical effect.

I hope the Government will not make any concession in the way desired by the hon. Member (Mr. Eyres-Monsell). It is one thing to talk about sympathy with market gardeners or any other class of people, and it is quite another thing to ask that they should be specially exempted from taxation. There are many deserving people in the country, I have no doubt, who are market gardeners, but there are also many little shop keepers who do not live under the salubrious conditions of the protégés of the hon. Member, and who are making their living without special exemptions from taxation. The Revenue Bill seeks to get revenue for the country, and if exemptions are to be given, and a less amount raised, it means that hon. Members opposite should not be so anxious to press on the Government increased expenditure in the various services. If we could give to all men in the country exemption from Income Tax, or other taxes they would have a little more money to devote to their business, and we would naturally benefit very deserving classes. To that kind of argument there is no end, and, without wishing to differ from the hon. Member in his zeal towards market gardeners, and while wishing that they should succeed, I cannot see that he has made out the slightest case why they should be exempted from taxation. In the part of the country I come from I am a rural guardian and a rural district councillor. I know something of the incidence of rates and taxes on the agricultural class, but I assure hon. Members that there is a little bit of healthy self-reliance in the North of England. [Cheers.] I am very glad that the Noble Lord the Member for the Thirsk Division (Viscount Helmsley) gives me that ringing cheer. We are not always coming from that part of the country cap in hand to the Exchequer, and we are not always coming for concessions and special consideration. If we are at all in difficulties there we prefer to stand with our backs to the wall.

I have listened very patiently to hon. Members from the agricultural parts of England, and I have never yet heard from them a note of confidence, a note of determination, or a note of self-reliance, like that to which we are accustomed in the North of England. There was only one part of the hon. Member's speech with which I thoroughly agreed. He laid down that a man who by his own industry improved the land through manure, and by diligent attention to the cultivation of the soil should get the benefit of his industry. He pointed out that occasionally when all that had been done a man suffers some injustice under the Budget Acts because he paid a little more in taxation. The part that a man of that kind pays in taxation is a mere flea-bite to what he pays in increased rent, but the hon. Member will not go to his constituency and appeal to ground landlords who let land to market gardeners in the same strain as he appeals to the Government in this House. I have noticed a most curious difference in the way in which hon. Members speak when they are dealing with private interests and when they are dealing with public money. When it is the case of the private landlords you must respect vested interests, but when it is the case of taxation, and when the money is to be got to build "Dreadnoughts" to keep the Germans away, then hon. Members want to pay as little as possible. Then they are up in arms against the State and they bring all their energy to bear against taxation. That is surprising to us, because that energy is never shown when they are dealing with rack-renting landlords. I sympathise with the hon. Member opposite in the difficulty he has when he goes back to the landlords in his constituency in Worcestershire. I am glad that he tries to protect the market gardener against undue extortion and exaction.

That is exactly my point. The hon. Member is on the qui vive there. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer is proposing taxation the hon. Member is in his place, but when there is some chance for something being done for the small holder who is being evicted or pressed for his rent, the hon. Member adorns the bench on which he sits with that silence of which the Leader of the Opposition spoke yesterday. Any point in the argument of the hon. Member's speech which applies simply and solely to the taxation of the market gardener ought to apply with regard to the rent he pays. The market gardeners who have to pay a little increased taxation to the State ought to be glad to pay it. Whenever the Budget imposes taxes upon them for money which is to be spent in the manner I have hinted at, they ought not to complain. It ought to be a joy to them. The more wealthy and successful a man is in business, the more willing he should be to pay. I do not know as much of market gardening as of the cotton industry, but the more prosperous a man is the more ready he ought to be to perform his duties as a citizen.

8.0 P.M.

But there are times when a man puts his own industry and care into the soil and he finds an absentee landlord paying one of his occasional visits to the place and noticing the vast improvement and insisting upon an increase of rent, and those are cases to which the hon. Member, I have no doubt, will in future give his very humane and most admirable sympathy.

In the speech which the hon. Member (Mr. Booth) has contributed to our discussion there were two observations with which I agree. He said that he knew no more about cotton than he did about market gardening. I can well believe that, because he could not know less.

The hon. Member must resume his seat unless he rises to a point of order.

The hon. Member did not give way to my hon. Friend (Mr. Eyres-Monsell). My hon. Friend several times asked the hon. Member to give way and the hon. Member refused.

On a point of Order Is it not the rule that a Member can rise to give a personal explanation?

It is not the rule that the hon. Member who is in possession of the House must give way to him.

I quite admit that if it were true that I refused to give way I would fully justify the view of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chamberlain). I never heard a single word of the hon. Member. If I had I would have sat down on the moment. I did see him move, but I thought he was speaking to the hon. Member in front of him. If I had the slightest idea that he wished to give an explanation I would have given way.

After that explanation I will give way to the hon. Member if he wishes to say something to me.

I accept the hon. Gentleman's explanation. It was so clear to us here that my hon. Friend desired to make an explanation that it did not cross my mind that the hon. Member did not know it. I can only say that I am now willing to give way to the hon. Member if he wishes to give an explanation. In consequence of what he has said I will try to couch my observations now in a more conciliatory form than in the circumstances I felt inclined. I was saying that I really thought that the hon. Member knew very little of the character of market gardening or the market gardeners in the Vale of Evesham. He appeared to consider that they were a weak, whining set of people, not to be compared with the stalwart men he was accustomed to deal with in the north. If he will take the trouble to go down to Evesham and move among these men he will find that a more sturdy, independent, hard-working class of men he could not meet anywhere in the country. They have established a land system of their own down there which has in my recollection of the House led to an Amendment of the Law to protect them. They have very considerable protection, and I think if they require more protection against the landlords they will be more likely to get it in those cases where they are renting the land, and are not freeholders. But that is not the point here, and it has nothing to do with the Amendment which my hon. Friend has moved. I only rise not to repeat the argument, but to state in the briefest possible language I can what is the point, because I believe if the House realises what it is it will see that it is not only we on these benches, but it is the Members on all the benches who desire the Government to deal with cases of this kind.

My hon. Friend proposes exemption in certain cases from Increment Value Duties. The theory of Increment Value Duties is that a man has got a windfall in the shape of the increased value of his land which he has done nothing to earn, that the increased value is created by the growth of prosperity of the community, and has come to him without any exertion on his part. That is the theory, but in this particular case it is not the practice. You are taxing a man on the value which he has created. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] You have land originally valued at £50, but the owner of the land makes improvements, especially by the use of manure and brings its value up to £80 for agricultural purposes. That is pure agricultural value. If he sells at that point, when the land is at £80, which is its full agricultural value, he pays no Increment Duty on the increase from £50 to £80, which is due to his own work. But if he waits until the land is worth £1 more for building purposes than it is for agricultural, and then sells, he will pay duty, not only on the added value which it is worth for building purposes, and which would be due to the growth of the community, but also on the £30 which has already been added to it as agricultural value by his own exertions. That is incompatible with what you claim as the basis of the Increment Duty. You tax a man, not on a windfall, but on that which is the result of the sweat of his brow. You are taking away from him, not a share of money which he is only too lucky to get because he has done nothing to earn it, but a share of something which he earns if anything in this world is earned. That is the whole point of this Amendment. Are you going to insist, as you do now, on charging a man Increment Duty on the value he has added to his land for agricultural purposes if that land happens to become more valuable still for building purposes. Charge on the difference between the value that he created and the value for building purposes, and not on the difference between the original agricultural value and its value for building purposes. That is all that the Amendment asks.

Following the example of the right hon. Gentleman, I hope I may be able to give an answer in a conciliatory form in a Debate which his speech has rendered very reminiscent of the Debates we held two years ago. Up to now the Amendments which have been proposed have been mainly new Clauses dealing with new points arising since the Act came into force; and here, I think, the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me when I say that we are re-fighting a battle which was fought at great length night after night when he put his point of view eloquently and forcibly, and we did our best to put our point of view. Nothing material has arisen to contribute to the discussion since the time when the Budget Bill of 1909 passed the House of Commons, and I think though I do not in the least complain of it, that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman rather enlarged on the narrow line which I think was taken up, and, if I may say so, rightly taken up, by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Evesham (Mr. Eyres-Monsell). In connection with one of his remarks, I would like utterly to repudiate in the name of the Government and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer any idea or desire to be neglectful of the interests of market gardeners when we were advocating the passing of the Budget in 1909, or that we considered that market gardeners were a negligible class who grew a few turnips and cabbages in the neighbourhood of towns. Quite a number of Amendments were introduced into the Bill when it was passing through Committee definitely remedying definite grievances which might be felt by the market garden community. There were none more important than the Amendment which gave exemption to small workers of the land, those who work the land in small pieces who are also owners of the land, who obtained complete exemption from the Increment Tax under fifty acres and an average value of less than £75 an acre.

I agree. That was an exemption given to market gardeners, and pressed for on their behalf, especially near small provincial towns, and it is a refutation of the statement that we denied the claims of those who represent market gardeners. We also gave exemption from Undeveloped Land Duty to the full amount of the agricultural value of the market garden, and we also gave complete exemption from Undeveloped Land Duty to holdings of less than £500 in value. All those are very material concessions to those who are developing market gardening in the neighbourhood of towns. But when the hon. Gentleman advocates, as he above all other Members of this House has the right to do, the interests of market gardeners, representing as he does the Vale of Evesham, and when he advocates certain exemptions from the Increment Tax, I do not see in his speech any full announcement of whether he is advocating exemption from the point of view of the landlord or the point of view of the tenant. The market gardener may be an owner of his land. In the great majority of cases he is not the owner. In the great majority of cases, in the neighbourhood of towns, he is a yearly tenant, and he is liable quite apart from the question of our Budget to be turned out on a year's or even six months' notice when the land is desired for building land.

No. If he did get compensation there would be more body in the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman, for, as nobody knows better than Lord Helmsley, a market gardener does not get full compensation in the neighbourhood of towns. There was a considerable revolt on this side of the House, in which I confess I took part, then being in an unofficial capacity, in favour of the market gardener receiving full compensation under Schedule 2 of the Act which he only gets to a limited extent under Schedule 1. If the hon. Member had limited the Amendment to providing that the landlord should get something like the compensation which he gives to the tenant then it would be a more tenable Amendment than that which is brought before us, but I am informed by the Board of Agriculture, from which I obtained special information, that although we already know that there is a special need of compensation in such districts as the Vale of Evesham, with its Evesham cup custom, that is very remote from the practice of the great majority of this land in the neighbourhood of towns in this country, and, as a matter of fact, we should be giving, if we accepted this Amendment, to a very large extent exemption from Increment Duty to the landlords on all Improvements for which the tenant has paid, and to which the landlord contributed nothing. That alone seems to make it impossible to accept this Amendment. As to the general contention which was advanced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), I think, if I may say so, he did not sufficiently mark the fundamental distinction, which after many months, was made in the Budget, and accepted by a large majority of agricultural Members at that time—the distinction we made between land which had a building value and land which had not a building value, so long as it does not pass into the category of building land. I think he will be the first to acknowledge that no agricultural improvements can ever be effective for Increment Duty where the land increases in value because of those improvements. Where agricultural land or market gardens increase in value owing to a recovery of prices, where the advance in prices of the produce of the land increases its value, never will that agricultural land, so long as it is purely agricultural, be liable to a farthing of Increment Duty. I think it is worth while that this should be re-stated in the new House of Commons, as it. was re-stated time and again in the old House of Commons.

Yes; so long as the land has not a building value. But a great deal of land has a building value which cannot be utilised immediately for building, and which it is only possible to use for agriculture. The question is whether you ought to tax that agricultural land as building land?

Nearly nine-tenths of the land of the country has no other value than that of agricultural land, and it will pay no Increment Duty, however much the market gardener or the agriculturist increases the value of his land. The right hon. Gentleman knows the definition to which finally the Chancellor of the Exchequer came, which was accepted by the House of Commons and embodied in the Budget, and which now the right hon. Gentleman proposes we should go behind, namely, the definition for which a precedent was found in the Death Duties, whereby a line was drawn between land which had a purely agricultural value and land which had also a building value. The drawing of any such line, of course, necessarily means hardship on the border line. That you have to recognise. It meant hardships under the Death Duties, where there was a limitation on the one hand for 25 years' purchase, and on the other of a larger sum.

Surely the position of the Death Duties is that land, whether it has a building value or whether it has not, under the Act of 1894, pays primarily on its income on the principle of twenty-five years' purchase of the income. If the land has a building value in addition to the agricultural value, the sum charged is in respect of that building value only. That is exactly what this Amendment asks us to do in regard to agricultural land.

I do not want to emphasise that point. It is really irrelevant to go through the whole of the Debate of 1909. I am trying to trace out to the hon. Gentleman that a line is drawn between building land and agricultural land which to a certain extent is an artificial line on the borders of which line there may be cases of hardship. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) took a case where the increase for building land was a pound more. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Mr. Pretyman) knows that it is the practice of the Inland Revenue, in respect of those estates, not only to draw the line, but to colour red the land which comes within the twenty-five years limit, and blue for land outside that limit. If you make a distinction of that sort, you must have a certain amount of hardship in every case which is near the line. But, as a matter of fact land which is in the neighbourhood of towns, and comes under the category of building land, does not increase in value by £1 above its agricultural value, but by £50, £200, and £500.

The question is not what it goes to, but whether you are taxing value that a man has created, whether it is £81, or £100. The point is the gap between the original agricultural value, the created value which you are going to tax the man upon, and the building value. That is my point.

I was coming to that point, and perhaps I was too greatly labouring the method by which we created the division. Let me take the clearest example I can. Supposing that agricultural land had a value of £50, supposing that by the work and labour of the tenant the agricultural value is increased to £100, and supposing it is sold at £200 for the purpose of immediately building upon it cottages, then our position is that it is not an additional value, but an alternative value, and that is where the real controversy arises in connection with the Budget of 1909. The building value is destructive of the agricultural value. The land cannot both be used for the growing of asparagus and also for the building of cottages. The fact that the land being used for building destroys the agricultural value is an element in the price for which it is sold. If land could both be used for building and for growing asparagus and garden produce, it would sell for a good deal more from the fact that the agricultural value is to be destroyed if it is to be used for building. If the building value under those circumstances does destroy the agricultural value, why should we allow the increased agricultural value that has been made and destroyed to be exempted from Increment Tax?

I was taking another point altogether—I was taking the sale of land for immediate building purposes. The occupation of that land for building purposes is of no more value to the builder, who buys it because it has been subjected to intensive cultivation, than if it were ordinary meadow land.

When this land comes into the category of building land, if money has been expended upon it for drains, that expenditure is exempted. But why not exempt expenditure on manure which has improved the value of the land? You are taxing a man on his own improvements and his own expenditure.

If the work which has been done on the land has increased its value as building land, then, by Clause 25, Subsection (4), the full value is given for those improvements, and rightly given, because that is an increase of the value of the land that is due to the work of those who are selling it as building land; but if money spent on drainage or fruit trees or whatever is not increasing the value of it as building land, then that value has been destroyed when the land is sold for building, and, in consequence, that destruction is taken into account in the price, and therefore ought not to be exempted. I do not think there really can be any doubt about that simple proposition. I do not think that that point is really disputed.

I thought the dispute referred to another and a more difficult point. The only difficulty I can see is in the case when you are dealing with land which is not immediately sold for building land, but which has a building value. There you are in a more difficult position. The building value of the land is given arbitrarily by some valuer, and you discount at present the future prices which will be received for it for building in five or ten or fifteen years. All that you are doing there by the system established by the Budget is that you are making that building land pay Increment Duty which would be paid ultimately when it is actually built upon. You are taking that duty in instalments, and the only question is whether you are to take it at the end, when the last seller would pay it, or whether you are justified in taking it in instalments. We think you are justified in taking it in instalments, because of the system established by the Budget of franking the land when it is sold up to the whole value on which Increment Duty has been paid. In that case, a buyer buying that land fully franked will be prepared to give more for it.

Does not the hon. Gentleman see that by his last sentence he is proving that the only result is to put up the price of the land?

Perhaps the Noble Lord will expound that at more length when he speaks later in the Debate, as I have no doubt he will. The sole result is that we take the Increment Duty on a series of occasions, instead of on the last occasion. But the more transactions of this kind that take place the less Increment Duty will the State receive because 10 per cent. of the original site value, or new value, is taken off, so that if the land goes through a series of transactions before it is finally cleared of asparagus beds those who own the land pay less increment than if increment was paid by the last person.

I am dealing with the Increment Tax, especially as it affects market gardeners. I have no knowledge of how Friendly Societies are mixed up with market gardeners nor knowledge of the exemption given to Friendly Societies. I am giving the actual facts in connection with any case of land in which that 10 per cent. off the original site or new value is allowed on every transaction. Therefore, if the land, instead of being sold immediately for building, passes through a series of transactions while it is gradually increasing in building value, the amount paid on that land will be less than if it is all done in one transaction. I need not remind the House of the very large concession which we also made in connection with this Increment Duty, that is to give the full value up to the present agricultural value of the land. That was a concession which broke through the principles on which the Act was founded. It would have been perfectly legitimate on our part when the land was turned into land for the building of cottages to go back not to the present value of the land, but to the prairie value of the land. The principle of the Act is to take the building increment, and the building increment must inevitably ultimately destroy the agricultural interest. If they were compatible uses of the land, then the position of the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment would be unassail- able but as they are mutually destructive uses of the land, and as we are only taking instalments of the building increment, I think it is clear we cannot accept the Amendment.

I hope the hon. Member has convinced those on his own side, but I think he has given no answer at all to the arguments put forward by the Member for Evesham (Mr. Eyres-Monsell) and my right hon. Friend Mr. Austen Chamberlain. In the first place the right hon. Gentleman tried to make out that if he did grant the concession the only result would be to give something to the landlord which had really been earned by the tenant. I think he was under some misapprehension on that point, because, so far as I know, in all cases of market gardening, the market gardener receives full compensation on leaving the land for improvements he has made as a market gardener, except in the case where the tenant has been carrying out market gardening operations without obtaining the consent of his landlord. That is a very great difference. We objected to a tenant receiving full compensation when carrying out certain kinds of agricultural pursuits to which his landlord objected, and for which he had not received sanction. We agreed that if a man carries out certain operations which tend to the improvement of the soil and the holding, having got permission to carry them out, then that man is justified in receiving compensation for them. He does receive full compensation under the Market Gardeners Act. The hon. Gentleman tried to shield himself by saying that after all this will not affect many market gardeners, and that nearly all of them come under the fifty-acre Clause, and that if they do not they are tenants of their holdings. I think the hon. Gentleman must be aware that there is a very large number of market gardeners in this country who do own and cultivate themselves holdings over fifty acres. Therefore, my hon. Friend the Member for Evesham was speaking for a very considerable number of people whom everybody admits are a very hard working and deserving portion of the community.

We submit that those persons are very unjustly taxed under this Increment Duty as compared with other classes. It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to talk about small shop-keepers, cotton-millers, and people of that kind, but they have got nothing in the world to do with this Increment Duty at all. The point has been ably put forward that a man is under this Act taxed on his own improvements, whereas the whole principle of the Increment Duty is that a man should be taxed on what the Chancellor of the Exchequer described as "windfalls." The hon. Gentleman has not answered this point, that if land has a value of £50 per acre, and if the tenant of that land by his own intensive cultivation improves its value up to £80 for purely agricultural purposes, that that man for the prospective building value is not taxed on the difference between £80 and the prospective building value, but on the difference between the prospective building value and the £50 valuation. The hon. Gentleman tried to answer that by saying that when building value appears it destroys the agricultural value, and that, therefore, no account must be taken of the enhanced agricultural value which is due to the cultivator's own handiwork. I would ask the hon. Gentleman what is the position in the case of Death Duties. Do the Government admit that building value destroys the agricultural value entirely, or do they take the value which happens to be most convenient to them for the purposes of the Treasury? I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that if a death had occurred before that land had been valued as building land, it would have been valued by the estate branch of the Inland Revenue at its full agricultural value of £80, and the State would take good care that it was valued at death for the particular purposes of Estate Duty. It seems to me very hard that as soon as they get the Increment Value Duty they should drop that value altogether, and say that they must now go back to the old original site value, of which they would have taken no notice at all for Estate Duty alone. Hon. Members opposite have stoutly denied on every platform throughout the country that they are taxing agricultural land for Increment Value Duty, but I think it has been unmistakably proved to-night that under the Budget of 1909 they do tax purely agricultural land, even when used for purely agricultural purposes. In doing that they are inflicting a great hardship and injustice on a most deserving body of men. If hon. Members opposite really want to encourage people to go back to the land, they are attempting to do it in a very remarkable way when they go into the Lobby in support of the Government who still adhere to this very unfair method of taxing a man on his improvements.

I gathered from the speech of the Under-Secretary for the Home Department that his objection to this new Clause was based on the view that in the case of increased agricultural value the landlord got the whole benefit of the work and expenditure of the tenant. If that were literally so there would be force in the argument. I would point out, however, that these agricultural improvements, such as draining and manuring, are frequently paid for by the landlord as well as by the tenant. The cost is frequently shared, so that in many cases the increased agricultural value, so far from being solely the creation of the tenant, is due to capital expenditure towards which the landlord has contributed. Moreover, in nearly every case under the Agricultural Holdings Act, particularly for heavy manuring and drainage, the tenant has a substantial claim for compensation, which the landlord is compelled to pay. So that, even with the Clause as it stands, it is far from true to say that the landlord gets the whole benefit of the work and expenditure of the tenant.

The Under-Secretary said in his speech that if we were satisfied that any of this value went to the tenant he would favourably consider the matter. Supposing, after the Clause has been read a second time, an Amendment were suggested to add after "Increment value" these words: "Provided that such value consist of money actually paid to any tenant for compensation for improvements." That would be a direct incentive to a landlord, if he wanted, not to pay Increment Value Duty upon money which he had expended, to treat his tenant generously. Not only would the landlord gain to some extent, but the tenant would be a great gainer as well. In the case where the landlord had actually paid money direct to the tenant it would not be a measure of justice to charge the landlord Increment Value Duty on purely agricultural grounds, and the hon. Gentleman himself has admitted that his great objection to this new Clause was based on the fact that the added agricultural value was given by the work of the tenant and not of the landlord. In this case the landlord would be gaining no advantage at all except in so far as he had actually paid the money to the tenant. In the interests of agriculturalists who take great interest in the working of this particular Clause, I hope the hon. Member will give some consideration to this aspect of the case.

I think the Amendment suggested by the hon. Member opposite would have a great deal of force in the case of a sale for building, but I do not think it would operate well in the case of death or on any other occasion where Increment Value Duty is leviable, except that of a sale for building. It seems to me that the Under-Secretary's argument is not sound in reference to alternative values for agriculture and building. Take three sets of figures—£50, £60, and £80. Say that a piece of land has to start with for agricultural purposes the value of £50. It is improved by the cultivator so that the value goes up to £60. Similarly its building value goes up £60. There is an increment on the building value which the hon. Member says is an alternative value; but, as a matter of fact, there is no increment to the cultivator.

Will the Noble Lord agree that when the land is sold for houses to be built upon it there is a destruction of the agricultural value, and consequently of any increment in the agricultural value?

That is not quite the point. As far as that £10 increased value is concerned, although there is an increment in the building value, there is no actual increment to the owner of the land, because he has put money into it up to that amount. Therefore it does not matter if the building value destroys the other, because presumably he will not sell that land for less than the £60, which is the agricultural value. He will make sure when he does sell the land that the extra cultivation which he has put into it is recouped in the price that he gets for it as building land. If that is clear in reference to the increment from £50 to £60, it equally follows when the increment is from £50 to 80. All we suggest is that that part of the increased value for which he gets no actual return other than that which he has himself earned should be exempted from this taxation, and that instead of paying Increment Value Duty on the whole increase from £50 to £80 he should pay only on the difference between £60 and £80. There would be no increment if the agricultural value and the building value increased pari passu all through. The Government have admitted that, and there is no increment under the Bill in that case. Therefore, following on their own admission, we claim that there should be this extra exemption of the agricultural value which is due to the cultivator himself. I do not think myself that the principle of the thing is at all affected. It may apply a little, but, at any rate, if it is right in one case it is right in the other. I quite sympathise with hon. Members who desire to make these things more applicable to the owners than the tenants. I want to see the tenants exempt. But when you are dealing with this tax you are not dealing with the tenants, except indirectly. You are dealing with the owners of land. I do think it is a pertinent point to put to hon. Members opposite that they cannot go on putting taxes on land and expecting always that they are going to be paid by the person on whom they fall in the first instance.

They agree with that doctrine very much when other forms of taxation are under discussion. I must say I was rather interested in what the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Home Department said, if I understood him aright. He said that if land was franked by the payment of Increment Duty the buyer would be prepared to give more for it. I wonder if he has considered what he means by that? Does he not mean that the seller would be able to get more for the land because of the Increment Duty being paid? Does it not mean, therefore, that the seller will be able to transfer to the buyer part of the Increment Duty? Does it not strike the hon. Gentleman that that will more particularly take place in those very places where there are more would-be buyers of land than sellers? Therefore I have always maintained that in those places where land is difficult to get, by it being "held up," the only result of your taxation will be to put a further power into the hands of the owner to exact a larger price than hitherto. Of course, in places where there are more people wishing to sell land than people willing to buy it, then the seller naturally will have to pay the duty, and he will get a less price in consequence of the duty. I really think the argument of the Under-Secretary points to the fact, as we on this side have often said in this House, that in those very cases where you want to facilitate the sale of land—which is the object of these taxes—those very cases where the land is difficult to get—you will be doing the exact opposite to what you desire.

No, I do not think that will make so very much differ- ence. A great deal of this land, subject to the Increment Duty, will not be subject to the Undeveloped Land Duty, and certainly in regard to the sort of land that I am contemplating; I think the effect would be such as I have stated. I would be out of order in developing that further, because we are dealing with agricultural exemption. I hope I have made it clear that, as a matter of fact, the Government, if they do not accept some such Amendment as this, are taxing agricultural values in land, although they do not mean to. At any rate, it is not in any way accurate to say, as they have said so often both here and in the country, that agricultural land is entirely exempt from taxation.

The whole difficulty which the Government is in on the question of this Amendment and in other cases arises from the fancy values attached to land. They do not deal with real but with fancy value. Take the case where you have agricultural land undeveloped, worth £60 as agricultural land, and worth £60 as building land. What do the Government propose to do? This land is coming into the market, and the question arises whether it shall be sold either as building or agricultural land. The Government say, if sold as building land, they will send their valuer down and reduce that land to some fancy value, which they call site value, and tax the difference between the £60 and what they declare to be the site value. If, on the other hand, they find it is to remain agricultural, as at present, it will be subject to no tax at all. The position of the Government on this question appears to me to be an absolutely untenable one. The owner of the land, say, always intends to improve the land to some considerable extent for agricultural purposes. That land is sold to a builder, and the seller of the land is to be taxed on the improvement which has been made, either by himself or by the tenant. It is equally certain that under various Agricultural Acts he may have to compensate his tenant for disturbance. He is to be taxed upon the money which he actually pays for disturbance to his tenant in order to clear the land for building purposes—which is apparently the purpose of this tax. In the way the Government propose to administer their Act, they are actually going to discourage the bringing of land under cultivation into the market for building purposes, because the owner of that land will obviously be able to sell it to much better advantage as agricultural than he will be able to sell it as building land. As the Noble Lord has just said, I do not believe the Government want to tax agricultural land, but it is their incurable way at looking at these taxes, and the fancy values which they have created as a figment of their brain that have involved them in all these difficulties. If they will only deal with the real values as they exist in the market for real purposes, they will be able to see their way through these difficulties and the whole mass and mist will disappear, and they will be able to administer their own Act with justice.

I wish to echo what the last speaker has said that the Government do not wish to tax agricultural land. They have said it in the House and on the platform so often that they are perfectly convinced that it is true. The argument of the right hon. Gentleman who has just gone out of the House (Mr. Masterman) was a very ingenious one when he said that the building values destroyed——

The right hon. Gentleman has left the House because he is not feeling well.

The right hon. Gentleman misunderstands me. I do not in the least wish to complain of the absence of the hon. Member. I am only saying he gave us a very clear and a very ingenious argument which I am sure we all enjoyed. His argument was that the building value +would eventually destroy the agricultural value, and need not be considered. But here we are dealing with the case of a value which may change hands either by sale or transfer many times before the actual building value accrues, and in that case the Government are putting a tax upon a man's improvements and upon the money he has spent. I do not think in that case they can deny that a certain proportion of agricultural value is being taxed. The Noble Lord (Viscount Helmsley) said very convincingly the mere fact that the Government admit that where the values are equal the agricultural value does away with and nullifies the building value, is an element that ought to be considered, and even when the building value rises higher, it ought to be exempt from taxation. This case is very much more convincingly dealt with in the matter of undeveloped land in which no one will deny there is a very large element of doubt as to whether agricultural land is not taxed. When it is considered that this duty has to be paid by many people before the building value develops and the full benefit of it is derived, it will be found that many persons may have to pay upon their improvements in a way not anticipated or desired by hon. Gentlemen opposite. I think the Government have not fully considered the real meaning and effect of this matter.

9.0 P.M.

The speech made by the Under-Secretary for the Home Office shows how difficult it is to find a logical argument for an illogical tax. His main argument was that agricultural value was destroyed by building value. My hon. Friend behind me has pointed out that that is pure theory, and although it may be possible to argue on theory in this House you cannot expect practical people outside to consider that the agricultural value is eaten up by the building value when the land is still used for agricultural purposes and is still growing agricultural crops and will continue to do so for another half-century. Here you have a tax levied upon land which is used to-day for agricultural purposes when that land has acquired a potential building value, and that tax is to be levied either on the death of the owner of the land when it still remains agricultural, and when there is no question or probability that it is going to be built upon. It is also to be levied when the land is sold, not as the Under-Secretary is good enough to assume, for building purposes, but whenever it is sold for merely agricultural purposes. Take a piece of land used for purely agricultural purposes which has a potential building value. That land is sold for purely agricultural purposes, and passes from hand to hand and because it is held to have a potential building value it is to be taxed. The Government carry their imagination to very distant points, but I cannot suppose that they really believe that the agricultural owner of that land, the agricultural seller or buyer, the first of whom has used it and the second of whom intends to use it, for purely agricultural purposes, can swallow the absurd theoretical argument that such land has a building value which has destroyed the agricultural value. Do the Government deny that they are levying this tax upon the sale of land used for purely agricultural purposes and to be again used for purely agricultural purposes. It is a fact that, in these circumstances, the tax is levied, yet they have the face to tell the House and the country that in such circumstances the building value has destroyed, not that it will destroy, but has destroyed, the agricultural value, and that is their justification of the tax. That may be good enough for the House of Commons, or, rather, the Government may think it good enough for the House of Commons, but it is not good enough for practical farmers and agriculturists in the country.

It does not seem to be thought necessary by the Government to make out a case. All they think it necessary to do is to say somethnig which will justify their supporters in following them them into the Lobby, be the argument good or bad, but people ouside this House who look for some justification for taxation will not believe it, and cannot believe it. I challenge any practical man who knows anything about agricultural land to deny that this is not a tax upon agricultural land. The other argument was that this was a tax upon the landlord and not upon the tenant. That is equally thin, because that would apply to taxes levied upon all agricultural values. If that argument has any value at all it simply means you may place any taxation upon the owner of agricultural land and defend it by saying it does not affect the tenant, but only the landlord. If that argument is good, why confine your taxation to this particular form of agricultural land? Why not levy it upon all agricultural land? We do not know exactly what area this tax is going to cover, but we had a very significant speech from the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood), who told us that in his opinion—and he is one of the great instigators of this tax—land nearing roads within five miles of a town or half a mile of a railway station, would be liable to this tax. That was his statement to the House yesterday, and obviously that covers half the agricultural land of the country.

I do not want to speak at random, but I will say that it covers a very large proportion of the agricultural land of the country. It is equally clear that whatever may be the prospects of future building developments, it can only be an infinitesimal proportion which can possibly be covered with buildings during the next half century. Therefore the whole of the remainder not covered may change ownership, and it will be liable to this imposition. This involves not only expense in the payment of duty in those cases where the duty is leviable, but it involves going through the whole machinery of levying the tax and of the transfer of the land which is potentially liable whether the tax is payable or not. That will cover an immense area of agricultural land. I doubt whether there will be any transfer of land under this costly machinery, and the transactions of the sale of the land or the grant of probate on the passing of the land at death, where the transaction will not have to go through the mill of the Increment Value Duty. There is another point upon which I interrupted the hon. Member. The Under-Secretary to the Home Office used an argument for which we are extremely grateful. He pointed out that when Increment Duty is paid periodically by instalments the aggregate duty paid is less than when paid in one lump at the time when the land is finally sold for building purposes. The hon. Member made his case good, and that we accept. What I call attention to is that the Government have claimed great credit throughout the country for having given an exemption to Friendly Societies by enacting that Increment Value Duty shall not be collected on any periodical occasion, but it shall be paid in one lump. We are now glad to have it from the hon. Member that agriculture is benefited by paying periodically instead of by paying in one lump. I think that was the argument.

I say that the exact opposite is claimed by the Government in Clause 37, because they say they are benefitting the friendly societies by giving the very doubtful privilege that they are to pay in the lump instead of paying their duty by instalments. That so-called exemption is really one that increases the duty to friendly societies, and it does not exempt them at all. I wish to emphasise and make it perfectly clear that under the Principal Act if this Amendment is not accepted agricultural land which is now being used in the ordinary sense as agricultural land for agricultural purposes, and will for many years be so used—which is being bought and sold solely for agricultural purposes—is being taxed. How in face of that fact hon. Members opposite can go to their constituents and say they are not taxing agricultural land passes my comprehension. I hope and trust this Debate will clear that issue, and whether it be right or wrong, or defended on logical or illogical general grounds of taxa- tion, to say it is not taxing agricultural land is clearly false and cannot be substantiated to any practical assembly.

I have listened to the whole of this Debate, and heard the proposition put forward and the cases stated much in this direction: The supposition is that you take a piece of land which I assume to be near a town, because I think it is urban sites we are dealing with, and I will assume that the present value of this piece of land is £50. The supposition is that entirely by virtue of the work of the tenant who is described by the hon. Gentleman opposite for the purposes of this argument as a market gardener, this piece of land is improved to £60 for purely agricultural purposes. Then we go on by some magical process and in a few years time it is discovered that this piece of land has a building value of £80. The assumption is that you should not deal or tax or levy the Increment Duty upon the land from £50 to £60, because that is purely the agricultural value, and because of that it is urged that we are taxing agricultural land.

I think the case ought to be stated slightly differently, and if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will allow me, I will put what I consider and what I think the man in the street would consider the proper way of looking at this business. The agricultural value may be £50. Is it not right to assume that if it ever is likely to become land with a building value, it will be near a town, and that parallel with its advance in agricultural value, its building value will also go forward, and at the time when it is really worth £60 for agricultural purposes it would be equally worth £60 for building purposes? Is it not right, also, to assume that the mere fact that it has a greater value for agricultural or market garden purposes is also due to the fact that there is an increase of population in the locality, that better market facilities are being given, that there is a better means of selling the produce and a greater demand for it, and it must not always be taken that although the agricultural value has gone from £50 to £60 that it is absolutely and entirely due to the work of the cultivator. May it not be assumed that there are social factors at work which make the land, ten years later, worth £10 more per acre as agricultural land, but which are not purely agricultural reasons? May we not assume, therefore, that though the building value is now equal with the value of the land for agricultural purposes, yet the owner, knowing the population is increasing, that the demand for land is increasing enormously, and that there must be an end to its purely agricultural value, is keeping it for agricultural purposes so that he may get rid of it later on at the full building value? The hon. and gallant Gentleman built up a picture in order to try and prove that the Government and those who support them are really taxing agricultural land, but may we not equally, logically, and fairly argue that we are not taxing agricultural values at all, but the increment due to the social efforts of the people in the locality.

There is not the slightest doubt that when I am out of Order the Chairman will call me to order. I am only answering the hon. Member for the Barkston Division (Mr. Lane-Fox), who used the figures £50, £60, and then £80 for building purposes, and the remark that it was out of order and was not in the Clause should have been made when the hon. Member was giving those figures.

My hon. Friend did not suggest that the hon. Member was out of Order. He suggested that he was talking about something not in the Amendment.

I am assuming that the increase may be due to causes other than the work of the cultivator himself. It is a moral certainty that if the land is purely agricultural and there is no encroachment by the population on the site there never will be any building value attached to it and no Increment Value Duty will be payable. If the land is in the middle of a waste where there is no possibility of the pressure of population, it can never have a building value. The hon. Member for the Barkston Division suggested that we could not, in face of his statement, still adhere to the contention that there was no tax on agricultural land. I venture to suggest my illustration shows that we are justified in saying that when land is used for purely agricultural purposes we do not impose any tax upon it. It is only when it has a building value, which means that there is a pressure of population upon it, and that there is an increment due to that pressure of population, that we say it should be taxed. We are therefore perfectly justified in maintaining that the Budget Land Taxes do not press upon agriculture.

The hon. Member who has just sat down said he did not desire to tax land unless it had a building value, and he was quite sure nothing was taxed unless it was building land. I should like the hon. Member to point to any Clause of the Budget which refers to building land. There is no mention of building land in the Finance Act. All the Act says with regard to land and the taxation of it is that if it has any value for any purposes other than agriculture then it shall be taxed. It need not necessarily have a building value at all. The hon. Member is referring to cases of land near towns, but last night the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood) said the persons they wished to single out for taxation were the owners of land in and around country villages. My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman), referring to some of the remarks of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, said that half the land of the country would be taxed. Exception was taken to his statement, but I think, when I draw the attention of the learned Attorney-General to the fact that the actual statement of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme was that the object was to tax all land in and around every village in England he will see that the statement of my hon. Friend was correct, and that no one can deny that agricultural land throughout the length and breadth of the country is taxed under this Budget.

The new Clause moved by my hon. Friend is too modest. He only proposes to exclude from the Increment Value Duty any portion of the value of agricultural land which is attributable to improvements. I think the Clause should go a great deal further, and should exclude from any charge for Increment Value Duty the whole of the value of the agricultural interest in the land. I would remind the Committee what the position under the Act is with regard to the imposition of the Increment Duty. Under the provisions of Section 2 Increment Value Duty is chargeable on the difference between the original site value and the new site value of the land. The agricultural value of the land is not considered at all. The original site value of an ordinary farm differs very largely from its agricultural value. I think the best way for me to make the matter clear is to give a simple illustration.

Take a farm of 100 acres worth £30 per acre, or a total value of £3,000. The original site value was £2,000, and the value of the buildings and improvements £1,000. The farm is subsequently sold for, say, a sugar beet factory for £3,500. The claim for Increment Value Duty arises. The claim is not on the difference between the agricultural value of £3,000 and the amount obtained for the farm for use as a sugar beet factory, but it is on the difference between the original site value of £2,000 and £3,500. Thus the owner of agricultural land is not only charged on his improvements, which my hon. Friend wishes to exempt by this proposal, but he is charged upon agricultural property of the value of £1,000 which he actually possessed at the time of the passing of this Act. That is the point I wish to make clear to this House. I have heard some discussion on this matter, but I do not think that this point has ever been made sufficiently clear. I remember a year ago, on one of my first attendances in this House, there was a discussion on Clause 7 of the Finance Act, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was urged very strongly to exempt from Increment Duty agricultural improvements which had been made since the passing of the Act. The House did not seem to realise that under this Act the owner of land is not only charged on his improvements created since the passing of the Act, but he is actually charged on the agricultural value of the land and on the buildings and agricultural improvements which existed at the time of the passing of the Act. For that reason I think the new Clause moved by my hon. Friend is much too modest. I have put down another later on, but, as I am afraid we shall have no chance of reaching it, I must accept the lesser advantage, and will, therefore, support the Clause.

I cordially support the proposed new Clause, because otherwise this provision will act as a deterrent to the expenditure of capital in developing agricultural land under the idea that possibly it may be required for building purposes. That, to my mind, would be disastrous from two points of view. It would mean a lessening of employment on the land for its improvement, and it would mean reducing the possible capital output of our native food supply. It seems to me, therefore, that this Clause is absolutely necessary, to prevent any deterrent of the development of this class of land, simply on the ground that, at some future time—perhaps half a century ahead—it may be required for building purposes. In reply to what was said by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Mr. John Ward), I venture to suggest it will be quite as accurate to say that all agricultural land that has a site value above its agricultural value is subject under the Budget to the Increment Tax. Consequently I do not think it is fair to say that agricultural land is not taxed. Another reason why I think it most important that this Clause should be passed is that it will make the class of land around towns and villages, now used with great advantage for dairy and market gardening purposes, dearer, and it will consequently tend to a reduction of the milk supply for the adjacent towns and to a limitation of the capability of the land in producing vegetables for the people.

I hold it is most desirable that we should encourage dwellers in towns to have their allotments not only from a financial point of view, in the way of providing vegetables for their families, but also because it is most healthy that these men should have a little plot of land to cultivate. The infliction of this charge under the Budget will, however, make it less possible for them to obtain land for the purposes I have mentioned. I believe, unless this

Division No. 89.]

AYES.

[9.35 p.m.

Acland-Hood Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F.Goldman, C. S.Perkins, Walter F.
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.Goulding, Edward AlfredPeto, Basil Edward
Baird, J. L.Grant, J. A.Pollock, Ernest Murray
Balcarres, LordGretton, JohnPretyman, Ernest George
Baldwin, StanleyGuinness, Hon. W. E.Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHambro, Angus ValdemarPryce-Jones, Col. E.
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Hamersley, A. St. GeorgeQuilter, William Eley C.
Barnston, HarryHarris, Henry PercyRatcliff, Major R. F.
Bathurst, Charles (Wilton)Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Rawlinson, J. F. P.
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksHelmsley, ViscountRawson, Colonel R. H.
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Hillier, Dr. A. P.Remnant, James Farquharson
Benn, Ion H (Greenwich)Hills, J. W.Rolleston, Sir John
Bennett-Goldney, FrancisHill-Wood, SamuelRutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-Hohler, G. FitzroySalter, Arthur Clavell
Bigland, AlfredHope, Harry (Bute)Sanders, Robert A.
Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith-Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Sanderson, Lancelot
Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid)Horner, A. L.Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Boyton, J.Houston, Robert PatersonSpear, John Ward
Bull, Sir William JamesHunt, RowlandStanier, Beville
Campion, W. R.Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath)Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Carlile, E. HildredIngleby, HolcombeStewart, Gershom
Cave, GeorgeJardine, E. (Somerset, E.)Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.Joynson-Hicks, WilliamSwift, Rigby
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
Clyde, J. AvonLane-Fox, G. R.Walker, Col. William Hall
Cooper, Richard AshmoleLarmor, Sir J.Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Courthope, G. LoydLaw, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.)Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)Lewisham, ViscountWeigall, Capt. A. G.
Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinianLocker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)Wheler, Granville C. H.
Cripps, Sir C. A.Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Dalrymple, ViscountLyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)Mackinder, H. J.Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-Magnus, Sir PhilipWolmer, Viscount
Dixon, C. H.Mount, William ArthurWorthinpton-Evans, L.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Neville, Reginald J. N.Yerburgh, Robert
Fell, ArthurNewman, John R. P.Younger, George
Fetherstonhaugh, GodfreyNewton, Harry Kottingham
Fitzroy, Hon. E. A.Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Eyres-Monsell and Mr. Royds.
Forster, Henry WilliamPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Gibson, Sir James P.Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

Clause is passed, it will act as a deterrent to the expenditure of capital in the development of agricultural land, simply because there is a possibility of that land in the future being required for building purposes. By thus preventing development you will deprive the adjoining community of the amount of labour which the carrying out of improvements would entail, and you will also impoverish the district by a reduction of the food supply from that class of land. I cordially support the Clause. I believe it is a simple measure of justice. I support it in the interests of those who live in towns, who want the milk supply that comes from adjacent land—a supply which it will be more difficult to obtain under the infliction of this increased burden. I want also to see dwellers in towns having every facility offered them to have their allotments and, if need be, their small holdings adjoining to the town, which would be hindered if this increased burden were insisted upon.

Question put, "That the Clause be now read a second time."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 118; Noes, 246.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)O'Donnell, Thomas
Acland, Francis DykeHardic, J. KeirOgden, Fred
Adamson, WilliamHarvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, w.)
Addison, Dr. C.Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)O'Malley, William
Adkins, W. Ryland D.Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Agnew, Sir George WilliamHarwood, GeorgeO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)Haslam, James (Derbyshire)O'Shee, James John
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)O'Sullivan, Timothy
Anderson, AHavelock-Allan, Sir HenryParker, James (Halifax)
Armitage, R.Haworth, Arthur A.Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Ashton, Thomas GairHayden, John PatrickPearce, William (Limehouse)
Baker, Joseph A, (Finsbury, E.)Hayward, EvanPhilipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Pointer, Joseph
Barnes, G. N.Herbert, Col. Sir IvorPower, Patrick Joseph
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)Higham, John SharpPrice, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)Hinds, JohnPriestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)
Barton, W.Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)Holt, Richard DurningPringle, William M. R.
Bentham, G. J.Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)Radford, G. H.
Bethell, Sir J. H.Howard, Hon. GeoffreyRaffan, Peter Wilson
Black, Arthur W.Hudson, WalterRainy, A. Rolland
Boland, John PlusHughes, S. L.Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Booth, Frederick HandelHunter, W. (Govan)Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Bowerman, C. W.Isaacs, Sir Rufus DanielReddy, Michael
Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Brigg, Sir JohnJohnson, W.Redmond, William (Clare)
Brocklehurst, W. B.Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Bryce, J. AnnanJones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnJones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasJones, William (Carnarvonshire)Robinson, Sydney
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.)Joyce, MichaelRoche, Augustine (Louth)
Byles, William PollardKeating, M.Roche, John (Galway, E.)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)Kellaway, Frederick GeorgeRunciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Chapple, Dr. W. A.King, J. (Somerset, N.)St. Maur, Harold
Clancy, John JosephLambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Clynes, John R.Lansbury, GeorgeSamuel, J. (Stockton)
Collins, G. P. (Greenock)Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.Levy, Sir MauriceScanlan, Thomas
Condon, Thomas JosephLewis, John HerbertSchwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Logan, John WilliamSeely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Crawshay-Williams, EliotLough, Rt. Hon. ThomasSheehy, David
Crooks, WilliamLow, Sir F. (Norwich)Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Crumley, PatrickLundon, T.Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)Lyell, Charles HenrySmyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Davies, E. William (Eifion)Lynch, A. A.Snowden, P.
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Summers, James Woolley
Dawes, J. A.MacGhee, RichardSutherland, J. E.
Delany, WilliamMaclean, DonaldSutton, John E.
Denman, Hon. R. D.MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftTaylor, John W. (Durham)
Dewar, Sir J. A.MacVeagh, JeremiahTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Dickinson, W. H.M'Callum, John M.Tennant, Harold John
Dillon, JohnM'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)Thomas, J. H. (Derby)
Donelan, Captain A.M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)M'Micking, Major GilbertTrevelyan, Charles Philips
Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)Manfield, HarryUre, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)Markham, Arthur BasilVerney, Sir Henry
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master ofMarshall, Arthur HaroldWadsworth, J.
Elverston, H.Mason, David M. (Coventry)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)Masterman, C. F. G.Wardle, George J.
Essex, Richard WalterMeagher, MichaelWason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Falconer, J.Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)Watt, Henry A.
Farrell, James PatrickMeehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)Webb, H.
Fenwick, CharlesMenzies, Sir WalterWedgwood, Josiah C.
Ferens, T. R.Millar, James DuncanWhite, Sir George (Norfolk)
Ffrench, PeterMolteno, Percy AlportWhite, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)
Field, WilliamMond, Sir Alfred MoritzWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
Fitzgibbon, JohnMoney, L. G. ChiozzaWhitehouse, John Howard
Flavin, Michael JosephMontagu, Hon. E. S.Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
France, G. A.Mooney, J. J.Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Furness, Stephen W.Morgan, George HayWiles, Thomas
Gelder, Sir W. A.Morrell, PhilipWilkie, Alexander
Gill, A. H.Morton, Alpheus CleophasWilliams, Llewellyn (Carmarthen)
Goddard, Sir Daniel FordMuldoon, JohnWilliams, P. (Middlesbrough)
Goldstone, FrankMunro, R.Williamson, Sir A.
Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)Neilson, FrancisWilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Greig, Colonel J. W.Nolan, JosephWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)Norman, Sir HenryWilson, J W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Gulland, John WilliamNorton, Capt. Cecil W.Winfrey, Richard
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Hackett, J.O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Hall, Frederick (Normanton)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Dudley Ward.
Hancock, J. GO'Doherty, Philip

New Clause—(Exemption Of Market Gardens From Undeveloped Land Duty)

Undeveloped Land Duty shall not be charged in respect of any land which is used or occupied for the purpose of market gardens.—[ Mr. Eyres-Monsell.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

In submitting this second Clause which stands in my name, although it is tempting to speak on a subject which I have been trying to since January of last year, I do not propose to say anything in support of it. I do so because I think I have occupied an undue share of the disgracefully short time allowed us by the Government, and also to show hon. Gentlemen that obstruction is the very last thing that we do want. I am, therefore, not going to further detain the Committee.

I did not mean to intrude on this House so soon after my joining it, and should not do so were it not for the fact that this Clause very vitally affects my Constituency. It is not only a part of England where market gardens are, but market gardening is one of its chief industries; and, although I fear from the smile on the face of the right hon. Gentleman opposite that the Government are not going to assent to the Clause, I do make one appeal to them in regard to the difficulty which the Undeveloped Land Duty must place, not only upon the owners, but on the tenants of market gardens. I want to go back to Section 16 of the old Budget, which established these duties. I find that land is deemed to be developed by the erection of dwelling-houses or even the erection of glass-houses. The Government might extend their definition of the development of land one stage further. If I as a market gardener take a tract of land and erect glass-houses on it under the old Act of 1909, that is deemed to be developed land. I wish to put it that the planting of fruit trees may equally be some development of the land, and for this purpose I cannot help thinking that the development of land has assumed too artificial an aspect. Development of land does not mean really development of land by building. I can assume many cases in which land might be well developed in the interests of the community without actually being built upon. I suggest that the development of a large amount of land in the neighbourhood of London for intensive culture, the planting of fruit trees and the planting of all those varieties of vegetables which constitute the highest intensive culture of land, is really development. I take it that the object of the Government in forcing land by these taxes into development is not merely to bring land into the market for the erection of houses, but to bring it to its best use from an economic standpoint. I submit that the planting of land near our large towns for intensive culture, for fruit trees and so forth, is really, temporarily, at least, a very high development, and there is a large amount of land to-day, notably in Brentford, which while it has undoubtedly a potential building value, while it may have an actual building value, while it may be worth, as I believe it is-worth, £200 or £300 an acre for building purposes, is still not all needed for building development, and may be very well in the next ten or twenty years be utilised profitably to the people and to the State for development as fruit gardens.

The point I want to make is really not merely on behalf of the landlord—I suppose it would be impossible at this hour to get much sympathy from the benches opposite on behalf of the landlord—but on behalf of the tenant, because, however much you may pass laws to prevent the landlord making a contract with the tenant to pay these duties, whenever a fresh tenant comes along there is bound to be an increase in the rent practically by the amount of the duty. To take one slight illustration. There is a vast amount of land on the confines of London let to market gardeners at a rent of £4 or £5 an acre at least. That would be worth £100 an acre in market value. A great deal of that land is worth considerably more for building purposes—£300, £400, £500 an acre. Under the last Budget, as it now stands, the owner of the land will have to pay a halfpenny in the £1 annually on the building value. Is it possible to believe that after the owner has paid 300 or 400 halfpennies per acre every year when a new tenant comes along he is not going to say to him, while I let it to my last tenant at £4 an acre, I very much regret I must ask you £5"? It is only human nature. However you may try by Parliamentary devices to put it on the landlord in these particular cases, sooner or later the tax is bound to fall upon the tenant. I do not know of any other exception which is so burning as this exception of market gardeners in and near our large towns, because the Government sooner or later will get the increased value of the land which the population is giving them. On land worth £100 an acre when market gardening began, which has gradually risen year by year to £300, £400, or £500 as building land, when it comes to be developed into building land you will get your Increment Taxes. Landlords will grant a lease of it at a building rate, and the Government will get their one-fifth of the Increment Value, so that the whole of the time it is being used for market gardens the State is still earning its Increment Value as it rises in value. The Government might well meet my hon. Friend and grant this one boon to the market gardeners of London and large towns, giving them an exception from Undeveloped Land Duty, while all the time the landlords, whom I believe to be the real object of the tax, will have to pay increment duty when the land comes to be developed for building purposes.

I feel strongly on this subject simply and solely as an average agriculturist, representing an agricultural constituency, first from the point of view that during the whole of my life I have been concerned with the management of agricultural estates in this country; and, secondly, from the point that I have only recently concluded an unenviable experience of five months' continuous electioneering in agricultural constituencies. During that period hon. Gentlemen opposite have hurled all their eloquence against me in endeavouring to persuade agricultural electors that the whole of the agricultural land of this country was absolutely exempt from Undeveloped Land Duty and Increment Duty. It seems to me that this Amendment opens up a very wide vista, far wider than that affecting merely the market gardens of the country. It means that unless you are going clearly to point out, both to owners and occupiers of agricultural land, that they are exempt from this taxation you are going to close the door to a large amount of expenditure which is neither luxurious nor absolutely necessary.

All those who have either owned, managed, or farmed large acreages of land know that an enormous amount of expenditure goes through what is known as the clerk of the works staff on large estates. It is neither luxurious nor absolutely necessary, but it goes to make the tenant farmer's holding more accommodating and more attractive to him, and the labourer's cottage more comfortable, and the labourer himself, therefore, more contented. Unless you are going clearly to show the owner of agricultural land that he is to be exempt from Undeveloped Land Duty, you are going to close the door to that expenditure, and therefore to hit both the agricultural tenant and the agricultural labourer. There is not the slightest doubt that there is an immense amount of land in this country bordering on centres of industry let at a rent of £3 or £4 an acre. Capitalise that at twenty-five years' purchase, and you get the capital value of £100 an acre. I have had acres and acres of land in my charge that is being put to its best economic use for purely agricultural purposes. It is let at £4 an acre if I offer it; and there is land I have offered for the last ten years, and have been willing to sell at its purely agricultural value, and I have not had a buyer, simply because the centre of industry has been over-built and local taxation has arrived at a figure when those who live in the locality do not desire to build. Therefore, the whole of that land is being put to agricultural use, and that agricultural use represents the best economic use to which the land at the present moment can be put.

The men who are living in these conditions under an individual landowner are living in very much better conditions than they can possibly hope to do under any State-aided scheme, for the simple reason that they have elasticity of arrangement in paying their rent, and the average landowner in this country certainly cannot be said to have imposed unfair conditions on those occupying under him. If you get tenants and labourers under these conditions while the land is being put to its best economic use—I am speaking for the agricultural community alone—I say that, unless you can clearly show that you are sincere in your protestation that agricultural land is to be exempt, then this Amendment which clearly shows that agricultural land, so long as it is purely agricultural land, is going to be exempt from Undeveloped Land Duty, should be accepted. You would then show that you are sincere in your protestations. I emphatically deny that under the Finance Act agricultural land of the kind I have endeavoured to describe is exempt. All I wish to point out is that it is open now to the Government to make it absolutely clear to the agricultural community that they are sincere in their protestations that agricultural land shall in future be exempt. I am perfectly sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House agree that there is, rightly or wrongly, existing now among those who own agricultural land a feeling of instability and insecurity. The effect is that, so long as that feeling of instability and insecurity exists, you must be striking a blow at the whole of the agricultural prosperity of the country, because if you are going to close down the doors of ordinary expenditure which the average landowner has been making, you are going to impose an unfair burden on those who have to get their living out of agricultural land. On these grounds I hope most sincerely that the Government will accept this Amendment.

10.0 P.M.

The Government cannot possibly accept this Amendment, and I think it will require very little consideration on the part of hon. Members to realise that, if, as I strongly believe, it was not already realised before the Clause was moved. The Debate we had on the last Clause with respect to the taxation of agricultural values travelled over a great deal of the ground that has been covered during the discussion on this Clause. If the Government were to accept this Amendment, the result of it would be that there would be very few cases in which you would get Undeveloped Land Duty at all. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] I am much obliged to the hon. Member for the candour with which he has expressed his agreement with me as to the way in which the Revenue would lose. It is quite plain, of course, that the object of the Amendment is to get rid of the Undeveloped Land Duty. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, I will say that the object is to get rid of the Undeveloped Land Duty in so far as hon. Members opposite have any hope of getting rid of it at all. If this Amendment were accepted you might get rid of Undeveloped Land Duty wherever you liked, provided that you turned the land into a market garden. There is nothing to get in that case. If the land is cultivated as a market garden then you are not liable to Undeveloped Land Duty under the Amendment. Let me point out further that market gardens are, in case of any doubt, included in agricultural land under the definition Clause, Section 41, of the principal Act. The agricultural value of this land does not bear any duty at all. It is made as plain as it possibly can be by the section of the principal Act. If hon. Members will only refer to Sections 16 and 17 they will see quite plainly that there is no Undeveloped Land Duty charged upon agricultural value. It is only when the building value exceeds the agricultural value that Undeveloped Land Duty becomes payable, and it is only payable in respect of the amount by which the site value exceeds the agricultural value. It is perfectly plain from the sections of the principal Act that we have in this matter provided for the way in which the tax is to be levied. Undeveloped Land Duty stands in a category by itself. That duty is payable under the principal Act by the owner. It is expressly made payable by the owner under the Act, and not by the tenant. The result is that a market gardener who is a tenant will not have to pay the duty at all. It is the owner who in the end——[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] There is no use saying "No," for the Act says it is to be paid by the owner. I do not intend to say anything more with regard to that.

I would point out once more to hon. Members who may have forgotten some of the Clauses in the Act, or who may not have the Clauses present in their minds at the moment, that by Section 18 of the principal Act we have exempted from Undeveloped Land Duty persons occupying small holdings where the total value of the land does not exceed £500. Under that Clause the market gardener, for whom a good deal of sympathy is asked, is provided for already, and, whatever happens, so far as he is concerned, he gets out of paying Undeveloped Land Duty on his holding, even if the building value exceeds the agricultural value. In all the circumstances the only claim that could be made for the Duty would be in respect of the amount of building value in excess of the agricultural value, and no more. I ask the Committee to reject the Amendment, which, if accepted, would destroy the effect of the Undeveloped Land Duty.

The hon. and learned Gentleman's defence of this Bill is singularly instructive, because the Committee will observe that already in respect of this matter as regards the particular distinction which we have been seeking to get the Government to introduce in reference to Increment Duty, and which the Government have for the last two hours vehemently resisted, the hon. and learned Gentleman for the purpose of making his defence points out, that in this case it is provided by the principal Act that Undeveloped Duty would be charged only on the excess of the building value over the agricultural value, and the object of this last Amendment, which for the last two hours the Government have been resisting, was to secure that Increment Value Duty also should be charged only upon the excess of the building value above the agricultural value.

That is perfectly true: Just as I might say that yesterday was Monday and to-day is Tuesday. But if the principle is sound that you should tax only upon the difference between building value and agricultural value, and in order to defeat this Amendment the Attorney-General founds himself upon the fact that that is done, with regard to Undeveloped Land Duty; then the case is even stronger in regard to Increment Duty, where the assumption was that the landowner had got additional value to which he had not contributed, than in the case of the Undeveloped Land Duty where there is no such assumption, but where there is found to be in the possession of the owner a certain value which you choose for taxation. What is the result of the policy which the Government are pursuing in this matter? The theory, as I understand it, is that wherever ground has a building value in excess of its value for other purposes it ought to be built upon; that whoever, being the owner, and having control of it, uses it for other purposes than building uses it unprofitably, and that if enlightened self-interest does not lead him to get the highest price he could for building on it at once you must fine him by taxation. The theory of the Government is that a vast amount of land is being held up for building, although the owner could get greater prices by using it, and although it is required for building, and although it is to the interest of the community and the owner alike that it should be built on. I join issue on that point. In regard to the kind of land referred to by my hon. Friend it is not the interest of the community to force that land into building lots. In the first place, I think that you cannot force it all into building lots, and for many years to come the only use you can put it to is an agricultural use and the best use you can put it to for the community is an intensive agricultural use or a market garden use.

Yes, the best economically and the best for the community. In the Budget of 1909 it is taxed, but it will not be taxed if it has not a value in excess of its agricultural value.

Then what does the right hon. Gentleman mean by the best economic use?

If he will allow me to finish the answer to his question and will attend to it, he will see that there is an answer, and he will see that he is wrong. But that depends on his having patience to listen and being willing to give his intelligence to the subject. If the land has no higher value for any other purpose than for agricultural purposes it will not be taxed, but there is a vast amount of land which has a higher value given by its prospective use for building, but not by its present use for building, and all that land will be taxed. Take land which to-day is worth £3 an acre for agricultural purposes, representing a capital value of £100, and say that that land is in the neighbourhood of a town and will in the course of a dozen years be required for the town's development. Will the value of that land in the market to-day be only the £100 which represents its present agricultural value? It will be its future building value, discounted by the number of years that have to run before that value can be realised. If so many years hence that land can be sold for building purposes at £1,000, its value to-day may be £200, £300, £400, or £500, rising up to that figure according to the number of years which have to run before it can be used for building purposes. During all those years it will be taxed, if used as a market garden, and yet to use it as a market garden is, in the narrowest sense of the word, the sense in which the hon. Member (Mr. Leif Jones) used it—the best economic use to which the land can be put. That is to say, it is the way in which you can get the greatest amount of money out of the land during the time.

But I am going a little further than those dry economics. I must beg the House to consider for a moment whether it is really in the interests of a great town that you should drive every acre of land within the limits of the town into the builder's hands? Do you want, when once a town, as it were, gets its grip on a district that every atom of ground that is capable of being covered by bricks and mortar should be covered? Do you not realise that the bigger a town gets the more important it becomes that yon should have open spaces? When corporations or private donors, very often landowners, go to great expense to buy open spaces, not merely as playgrounds in which people can absolutely run about, but as lungs to give breathing spaces to the town itself, I say then that in the interests of these great communities it is not desirable that all this land should be built over as soon as possible. It is much more desirable that it should spread over a larger area and leave open spaces in the midst of the bricks and mortar. Many of those spaces are left for a very long time, when you have got a reasonable return under the old system out of the use of the land for market gardens, and such like, or allotments which are covered by an Amendment to this Clause, or similar purposes. But you are going to say that if the land continues to be used for that purpose, as land for breathing space, that it shall be subject to a special tax, and the moral ground-work of your tax is that the landowner is improperly exercising his rights and improperly withholding his land from the builder. You would therefore put the utmost pressure, both direct and indirect, moral and financial, upon the landlord of any such open spaces to cover them with buildings at the earliest possible time. The House has devoted a good deal of attention to town planning and open spaces, and such like subjects, and I urge Members not to strike a blow on the other side by doing something which, pro tanto, undoes the work that they are doing in town planning and in other directions as regards the interests of the community as a whole. But there is another interest concerned, that of the tenant of such land. The learned Attorney-General emphasised the fact of the agricultural value not being exceeded. But invert his proposition. If the landlord raises the agricultural rent until it represents a return upon the building value of the estate, he is exempt from the tax, but if he continues to charge the agricultural rent which he formerly charged, then he is taxed as an evil-doer. I have ventured to put my own personal case to the House before, a thing one always hesitates about doing. I am not a big landowner. I own a little land in the neighbourhood of Birmingham. It is let in four portions.

There is a small holding occupied by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain), there is a small holding occupied by a tenant farmer, a portion is devoted to allotments, and another portion is let to an horticultural society. I wish to draw attention to the land let for allotments. This land was bought a good many years ago for £200 an acre, because it was supposed to have a building value. There is plenty of land in the neighbourhood and certainly the land occupied in allotments is not, in my opinion, the first to be acquired for building purposes at the present time. These allotments are let at £3 an acre, which represents a capital value of £100. I am asked to renew the lease to the small holders. If I do so what is the position which confronts me? I am assuming that the land is worth no less and no more than when it was bought thirty years ago—£200 an acre. It is let for £3 an acre for agricultural purposes, and I therefore assume its value to be £100. The building value I assume to be £200—I do not think it is less, I do not think it is more. If I renew the lease what do I do? I make myself subject to the tax, I expose myself to the stigma, according to the Government theory, that I am withholding from building purposes land which ought to be built upon. That is the answer I have to make to the tenants, and thereupon they come to me and say, "If the district council offered you £6 per acre rent instead of £3 which they are paying then the agricultural value would be the same as the building value, and there would be no tax. There would then be no stigma, and instead of you being out of money you would get double the rent." That is perfectly true. That is the case I have got to deal with myself, and it is the case many another landlord will have to deal with. I quoted this in the House before, and I observed that the "Westminster Gazette" said, "What does Mr. Chamberlain complain of? He bought the land twenty or thirty years ago for £200, and when he bought the land it was because he thought it had a building value, and if it has a building value that is to be taxed." That is an entire misconception. I never would have ventured to bring before the House a personal grievance in that way. I did not raise the case, because I was going to be taxed but because here in a picturesque form was an argument which is presented to the landlord's mind, and suggested not by the landlord himself but by the tenants, who sooner than have that land turned into building land suggest that I should double the rent that I receive in order to escape the tax, and to escape the moral stigma that the Government put upon me.

Has the right hon. Gentleman the land let at half the agricultural value it might let for?

I think £3 per acre is the fair agricultural value, but if I can prove that for the whole of that land, something over twenty acres, I can find eighty to one hundred persons willing to offer me £6 per acre, I defy the Commissioners to say that that is not agricultural rent, if I get that offer from agricultural tenants for agricultural purposes. If you ask me whether I think that is a fair rent, no, I do not. The whole purpose of the tenants in offering the suggestion is not that that is its real agricultural value, but they offer that fancy price as an agricultural price; so that the reason for taxation disappears, the stigma disappears, and that I may leave it in their occupation.

Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the tenants are offering the higher rent as philanthropists?

A deputation from them suggested they would pay that because they want the land for agricultural purposes, and because they do not want their landlord to be forced to do that which the Government and the hon. Member are trying to make him do, namely, to turn his land away from agricultural use to building use, and to cover it with bricks and mortar at once.

It seems to me that on his own showing the agricultural value of the land is higher than that at which the right hon. Gentleman has let it.

I do not think it is, neither they nor I. I think £3 per acre is a fair rent. I am talking of the rent I receive of the gross acres, because, of course, they have to pay more to the district council since it is divided up. I think that is a fair price, but if you drive all the landlords in the neighbourhood to cover their land with bricks and mortar then I agree that the rent of agricultural land in that neighbourhood might be doubled. There will be famine prices paid for land. That is what is happening. From fear lest the land should be taken from them they are offering me a famine price. That is the result of your legislation. That is what you call exempting all agricultural land from the duty. You will never persuade my Con- stituents and the tenants under the district council who are tenants under me, that the provisions of your Act are fair, or in accordance with your own account, as long as they know the facts as they are presented to them at the present time. I suggest two pleas to the Government. The first is the general plea that it is not in the interest of the community to force landlords to build on all this open land, but that, on the contrary, it is much better that these lands should be left vacant as long as possible as open spaces, because in proportion as you force landlords to build you will force corporations to buy the land at enhanced prices from the landlord to save some part of it from the builder. Then there is the interest of the particular tenant, who will be met again and again by the landlord with the statement:—"If I continue to let the land to you for agricultural purposes I am held up to contempt by the Government as a wrongdoer; I am fined by the Government for misusing my land; therefore I must take it away from you unless you bring it again into the category of agricultural land by offering me a price which makes the agricultural equivalent to the building value."

The right hon. Gentleman has not convinced me that we are taxing agricultural land. He has, however, made the very remarkable statement that we are raising the value of agricultural land to famine prices. We have nearly doubled the agricultural value of land which he himself possesses, and he is now in the position to get £6 an acre for land which he has let at £3. It is a curious commentary on the usual criticisms on the action of the Government.

Does it occur to the hon. Member what kind of speeches would be made by hon. Members opposite if I took advantage of this Act to double the rent?

I am the last man to blame the right hon. Gentleman for getting the market value for his land.

I am not concerned in making a case against the landlords of England. In this matter not a word has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman to prove to me that one penny of the tax falls on the value of agricultural land. The right hon Gentleman spoke about dry economics. I think he did wisely to desert them during the greater portion of his speech. The Increment Value Duty, admittedly, does not fall on the agricultural value of land.

As regards Increment Value Duty, it is a question of the standard that you take. The Government have taken a fixed standard at a given time. The complaint made by hon. Members opposite is that when levying Increment Duty the Government do not start from a higher agricultural value which may have been reached after 1909, but they start from the standard of 1909. It is only in that sense that they can possibly claim that these taxes fall upon agricultural land. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, I believe that to be so, and the right hon. Gentleman reminded me that I had sat through all the Debates, I had had the advantage of listening to all his speeches, and still that is the view I hold. My view has not changed by a year spent in studying the operations of the tax, Form IV., and the various other outgrowths of the Budget of 1909. When we come to the Undeveloped Land Tax again it has not fallen upon agricultural land, because the tax does not operate until the land has a higher value for building purposes than its agricultural value. That at least is not denied by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. The right hon. Gentleman talked about some prospective value which land might have over and apart from its present value. I have always been at a loss to understand what this prospective value is of which hon. Members opposite speak. The prospective value, the right hon. Gentleman says, is discounted—[Interruption]—If the land has a higher value, I would submit to the Opposition that there is nothing unreasonable in putting a tax upon it.

The right hon. Gentleman spoke once or twice of the stigma of being subject to the Undeveloped Land Duty, and of accounting himself a wrong-doer. I submit that is a very unreasonable way of treating that tax. If there is land that has this higher value produced in the neighbour- hood of towns, then it is a very reasonable subject for taxation. Certainly no social disadvantage has been shown to attach to it. I follow the right hon. Gentleman's argument that it is undesirable to force building forward. That is quite a reasonable argument which he holds very strongly, and for which there is a great deal to be said. But I do not think he is entitled to speak as if we were attaching a stigma to everyone who has to pay Undeveloped Land Duty, or that he is a wrong-doer because of this tax. The amount of the tax is an exceedingly small one. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Of the £200 total value of the land referred to by the right hon. Gentleman £100 was for agricultural value, and the other £100 is subject to the tax—4s. 2d. a year. [HON. MEMBERS: "Per acre."] I am bound to say that neither in the tax itself nor in the amount has the right hon. Gentleman very much to complain of.

I make no complaint on my own account. I hesitated to mention the case, which I merely did by way of illustrating my point.

I think the tax is a small one. I deny that it falls upon agricultural land in any sense. Nothing the right hon. Gentleman said in his development of the case against this tax in 1909 has made any hon. Member of this House dislike it more. Further experience of these taxes has not led us to believe that the Government have not acted wisely in putting these taxes upon land values.

This has been a very instructive Debate. It has shown that hon. Gentlemen, or at any rate a certain number of them on the other side who supported these Land Taxes through thick and thin did not understand the basis of the taxes at all. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down said he studied the Act for some time and was satisfied that agricultural land was not taxed at all. He said Increment Value Duty was chargeable on the difference between the agricultural value of the land as it existed on April, 1909, and the present site value. The hon. Member is entirely mistaken. Increment is not chargeable upon that; it is chargeable on the difference between original site value and the new site value without regard to agricultural value at all. I want to put the hon. Member right, because I hope, after my explanation, to convert him into an opponent instead of a supporter of the tax. The hon. Member was not aware that Undeveloped Land Duty was chargeable when land was not built upon; he had to be told that Undeveloped Land Duty was chargeable, notwithstanding that the land had not been built upon. These are the two main taxes supported by hon. Gentlemen opposite, yet they do not understand the very foundation of them.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"; but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire spoke about land being forced by the operations of these taxes into building land as being undesirable. I join issue with him in one way, though agreeing with him in the main. We who support these taxes support them not merely as revenue-producing agencies; we support them for the further reason that we believe they will bring more land into the market for building operations, and, instead of getting what we now get, miserable, squalid little square backyards in hundreds of thousands of our working-class houses, we should have larger portions of land attached and big gardens to add to the amenities of the dwellings of the poor. The hon. Member who has just spoken has an Amendment extending the operation of this tax by making it possible to call any little pieces of land upon which anything is grown agricultural land. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide."] I have only another word to say and I mean to say it.

I really must ask hon. Members not to cry "Divide, divide." This conduct is really of a disorderly character.

Is it not within your recollection, Mr. Emmott, that we were once told from the Chair that when the House did not wish to hear an hon. Member speak the practice was to cry "Divide, divide."

The "t's" are crossed and the "i's" are dotted in subsequent Amendments by which in short any owner of land who wants to defeat the operation of the Act has only to put twenty-five cabbages upon his land and call it allotment or market garden land and then the object we have in view of making our towns healthier and more beautiful is defeated. The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) triumphantly remarked that this tax is laid upon agricultural land, and it was said by a colleague of his that within his own experience the agricultural value of his land would probably be raised 100 per cent. by the operation of this Bill.

I really must appeal to hon. Members on my right to allow the hon. Member to address the Committee. There is only a quarter of an hour before this Debate must conclude, and it is not fair to take up all the time by these disorderly interruptions, whether they come from the one side or the other. I regret to say to-night they have come from both sides.

The hon. Member opposite (Mr. Leif Jones) said my right hon. Friend the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) had not convinced him, but I do not suppose my right hon. Friend or anybody else would under any circumstances convince the hon. Member of the iniquity of the Undeveloped Land Duty. The reason why my right hon. Friend failed to convince him was made clear by the hon. Member himself when he told the House that he was at a loss to understand what was meant by the prospective building value of land. I should have thought anybody who had had the slightest experience of landed property in this country would perfectly well have understood what was meant by the prospective building value of land. Dees the hon. Member imagine for a moment when he talks of land having at one time an agricultural value of £100 an acre and some years afterwards having a building value of £1,000 an acre that value grows in a night, like a mushroom? The value grows gradually, as the neighbourhood increases and develops. If you have land with a purely agricultural value of £100 an acre it may in the next five years be worth £200 an acre, but at the end of that period it is not ripe for building. You have to hold it for some years before it becomes ripe, but, whilst it is becoming actual building land it has a prospective building value, and it is that prospective building value which is taxed by the Undeveloped Land Duty. Let us consider how that applies to agricultural land. Market gardens and allotments and land of that kind is called agricultural land within the meaning of these sections relating to the Undeveloped Land Duty. Just see how you are going to hit the small market gardener in that respect. Hon. Members below the Gangway opposite often speak of the value of encouraging intensive cultivation in the neighbourhood of towns. But here you are preventing it; you are imposing such duties on the only land capable of being used for that kind of agriculture that you prevent that kind of agriculture being followed at all. You cannot have that particular industry miles away from a town, you can only have it in the immediate neighbourhood of towns, and the land, by reason of its being in that immediate neighbourhood has a prospective building value. It is because it has that value that it is suited for this particular kind of agriculture. The tax has to be borne by the occupier: you may be quite sure that the owner of that land, which is a limited quantity, will pass the burden on to the occupier. If hon. Members will only look at this apart from the party aspect, they will see that by these duties they are doing their best to prevent this very land being used for market garden and allotment purposes. I venture earnestly to appeal to hon. Members who really desire to encourage this form of agriculture, which is essentially the form most suitable for the working classes of this country to support us on this occasion rather than to vote for a proposal which would simply hamper it.

rose in his place and claimed to Move, "That the Question be now put," but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire spoke of the difficulty arising from the fact that the land had a prospective building value which could not be realised. By the operation of this tax we want to squeeze it into building land, and thus do

Division No. 90.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F.Benn, Ion H. (Greenwich)Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r)
Anson, Sir William ReynellBennett-Goldney, FrancisClay, Captain H. H. Spender
Archer-Shee, Major M.Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-Clive, Percy Archer
Arkwright, John StanhopeBigland, AlfredClyde, J. Avon
Ashley, W. WBoscawen, Sackville T. Griffith-Cooper, Richard Ashmole
Astor, WaldorfBoyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)Courthope, G. Loyd
Baird, J. L.Boyton, J.Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)Bridgeman, W. CliveCraik, Sir Henry
Balcarres, LordBull, Sir William JamesCrichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian
Baldwin, StanleyBurdett-Coutts, WilliamCripps, Sir Charles Alfred
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.)Burn, Colonel C. R.Croft, H. P.
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeButcher, J. G.Dalrymple, Viscount
Banner, John S. Harmood-Campion, W R.Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Carlile, E. HildredDickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.
Barnston, HarryCassel, FelixDixon, Charles Harvey
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)Castlereagh, ViscountDouglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksCator, JohnDu Cros, Arthur Philip
Beckett, Hon. William GervaseCave, GeorgeFell, Arthur
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey

away with the injustice arising from the fact that it is prospective. I should like for a moment to examine the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman's argument amounted to this. He said that this land has a prospective building value of £200 an acre, but in the meantime he let if for market gardening purposes for £3 an acre, but in consequence of the odium which this unjust tax would give rise to be would be invited to raise the rent to £6 an acre, and the object of this performance of his was to relieve him of a tax which amounted to 4s. 2d. That means that the tenants would press upon him an extra rent of £3 per annum in order that he may not incur the odium of paying 4s. 2d. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide."]

Perhaps hon. Members do not understand that we must divide upon this Question at eleven o'clock?

I was just pointing out, if the hon. Members opposite will allow me for a moment, that the right hon. Gentleman's argument was that this land existing in the neighbourhood of a large centre of population, in consequence of being squeezed by the operation of this Act and of this tax, a great community would have to pay a large price for their building land. Therefore this Act resulted in a larger price for land——

And, it being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 27th March, proceeded to put forthwith the Question on the Motion already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 182; Noes, 287.

Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.Royds, Edmund
Forster, Henry WilliamLowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Foster, Philip StaveleyLowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)Salter, Arthur Clavell
Frewen, MoretonLyttelton, Rt. Hn. A. S. Geo., Han. Sq.)Sanders, Robert A.
Gastrell, Major W. H.Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)Sanderson, Lancelot
Gibbs, G. A.MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeaghSandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Goldman, Charles SydneyMackinder, H. J.Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Goldsmith, FrankMacmaster, DonaldSmith, Harold (Warrington)
Goulding, Edward AlfredMagnus, Sir PhilipSpear, John Ward
Grant, J. A.Malcolm, IanStanier, Beville
Greene, W. R.Mason, James F. (Windsor)Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Gretton, JohnMildmay, Francis BinghamStarkey, John Ralph
Guinness, Hon. W. E.Mills, Hon. Charles ThomasSteel-Maitland, A. D.
Haddock, George BahrMorrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)Stewart, Gershom
Hambro, Angus ValdemarMorrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Hamersley, Alfred St. GeorgeMount, William ArthurSwift, Rigby
Harris, Henry PercyNeville, Reginald J. N.Sykes, Alan John
Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Newdegate, F. A.Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
Helmsley, ViscountNewman, John R. P.Touche, George Alexander
Hill, Sir Clement L.Newton, Harry KottinghamTullibardine, Marquess of
Hillier, Dr. A. P.Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)Valentia, Viscount
Hills, John WallerOrde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.Walker, Col. William Hall
Hill-Wood, SamuelOrmsby-Gore, Hon. WilliamWalrond, Hon. Lionel
Hoare, Samuel John GurneyPaget, Almeric HughWard, A. S. (Herts, Watford)
Hohler, G. FitzroyParker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Hope, Harry (Bute)Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)Weigall, Capt. A. G.
Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)Wheler, Granville C. H.
Home, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Horner, Alfred LongPerkins, Walter F.Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Houston, Robert PatersonPeto, Basil EdwardWilloughby, Major Hon. Claud
Hume-Williams, Wm. EllisPole-Carw, Sir R.Winterton, Earl
Hunt, RowlandPollock, Ernest MurrayWolmer, Viscount
Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath)Pretyman, E. G.Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)
Ingleby, HolcombePryce-Jones, Col. E.Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)Quilter, William Eley C.Worthington-Evans, L.
Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.Ratcliff, Major R. F.Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Knight, Captain E. A.Rawlinson, John Frederick PeelYate, Col. C E.
Lane-Fox, G. R.Rawson, Colonel R. H.Yerburgh, Robert
Larmor, Sir J.Remnant, James FarquharsonYounger, George
Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)Rice, Hon. W. F.
Lewisham, ViscountRolleston, Sir JohnTELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Eyres-Monsell and Mr. Joynson-Hicks.
Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)Ronaldshay, Earl of
Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)Rothschild, Lionel de

NOES.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)Chancellor, H. G.Flavin, Michael Joseph
Acland, Francis DykeChapple, Dr. W. A.France, G. A.
Adamson, WilliamChurchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Furness, Stephen W.
Addison, Dr. C.Clancy, John JosephGelder, Sir W. A.
Agnew, Sir George WilliamClynes, John R.Gibson, Sir James Puckering
Ainsworth, John StirlingCollins, G. P. (Greenock)Gill, A. H.
Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)Condon, Thomas JosephGoddard, Sir Daniel Ford
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Goldstone, Frank
Anderson, Andrew Macbeth)Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)
Armitage, R.Crawshay-Williams, EliotGreenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)
Ashton, Thomas GairCrooks, WilliamGreig, Colonel J. W.
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)Crumley, PatrickGrey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Davies, E. William (Eifion)Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)
Barnes, George N.Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Gulland, John William
Barren, Sir John N. (Hawick B.)Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)Dawes, J. A.Hackett, J.
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)Delany, WilliamHill, F. (Yorks, Normanton)
Barton, W.Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasHancock, John George
Beck, Arthur CecilDewar, Sir J. A.Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Bentham, G. J.Dickinson, W. H.Hardie, J. Keir
Bethell, Sir John HenryDillon, JohnHarmsworth, R. (Leicester)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineDonelan, Captain A.Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Black, Arthur W.Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)
Boland, John PiusDuncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Booth, Frederick HandelEdwards, Enoch (Hanley)Harwood, George
Bowerman, C. W.Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master ofHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Brigg, Sir J.Elverston, H.Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry
Brocklehurst, W. B.Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)Haworth, Arthur A.
Bryce, John AnnanEssex, Richard WalterHayden, John Patrick
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnFalconer, J.Hayward, Evan
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasFarrell, James PatrickHenderson, Arthur (Durham)
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)Fenwick, CharlesHerbert, Col. Sir Ivor
Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)Ferens, T. R.Higham, John Sharp
Byles, William PollardFfrench, PeterHinds, John
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Field, WilliamHobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)Fiennes, Hon. Eustace EdwardHolt, Richard Durning
Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)Fitzgibbon, JohnHome, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

Howard, Hon. GeoffreyMuldoon, JohnRose, Sir Charles Day
Hudson, WalterMunro, R.Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Hughes, S. L.Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.Samuel, J. (Stockton)
Hunter, Wm. (Lanark, Govan)Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Illingworth, Percy H.Neilson, FrancisScanlan, Thomas
Isaacs, Sir Rufus DanielNolan, JosephSchwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.
Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)Norman, Sir HenryScott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Johnson, W.Norton, Capt. Cecil W.Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)Nugent, Sir Walter RichardSheehy, David
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Jowett, Frederick WilliamO'Doherty, PhilipStanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)
Joyce, MichaelO'Donnell, ThomasSummers, James Woolley
Keating, MatthewOgden, FredSutherland, John E.
Kellaway, Frederick GeorgeO'Grady, JamesSutton, John E.
King, J. (Somerset, N.)O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)O'Malley, WilliamTaylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)Tennant, Harold John
Lansbury, GeorgeO'Shaughnessy, P. J.Thomas, James Henry (Derby)
Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)O'Shee, James JohnThorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Levy, Sir MauriceO'Sullivan, TimothyTrevelyan, Charles Philips
Lewis, John HerbertPalmer, GodfreyUre, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Lough, Rt. Hon. ThomasParker, James (Halifax)Verney, Sir Henry
Low, Sir F. (Norwich)Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)Wadsworth, John
Lundon, T.Pearce, William (Limehouse)Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Lyell, Charles HenryPearson, Weetman H. M.Walters, John Tudor
Lynch, A. A.Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Pointer, JosephWardle, George J.
MacGhee, RichardPollard, Sir George H.Waring, Walter
Maclean, DonaldPonsonby, Arthur A. W. H.Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftPower, Patrick JosephWason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
MacVeagh, JeremiahPrice, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
M'Callum, John M.Price, Sir Robert J (Norfolk, E.)Watt, Henry A.
M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)Webb, H.
M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)Pringle, William M. R.Wedgwood, Josiah C.
M'Micking, Major GilbertRadford, George HeynesWhite, Sir George (Norfolk)
Manfield, HarryRaffan, Peter WilsonWhite, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Markham, Arthur BasilRainy, Adam RollandWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
Marks, George CroydonRaphael, Sir Herbert H.Whitehouse, John Howard
Marshall, Arthur HaroldRea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
Mason, David M. (Coventry)Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Masterman, C. F. G.Reddy, MichaelWiles, Thomas
Meagher, MichaelRedmond, John E. (Waterford)Wilkie, Alexander
Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)Redmond, William (Clare, E.)Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)
Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's County)Rendall, AthelstanWilliamson, Sir Archibald
Menzies, Sir WalterRichardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Millar, James DuncanRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Molloy, MichaelRoberts, G. H. (Norwich)Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Molteno, Percy AlportRoberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Mond, Sir Alfred MoritzRobertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)Winfrey, Richard
Money, L. G. ChiozzaRobertson, John M. (Tyneside)Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Montagu, Hon. E. S.Robinson, SydneyYoung, W. (Perthshire, E.)
Mooney, J. J.Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Morgan, George HayRoche, Augustine (Louth)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. W. Benn and Mr. W. Jones.
Morrell, PhilipRoche, John (Galway, E.)
Morton, Alpheus CleophasRoe, Sir Thomas

The Chairman then proceeded to put forthwith the Question necessary to dis-

SCHEDULE.
ENACTMENTS REPEALED.
Session and Chapter.Short Title.Extent of Repeal.
10 Edw. 7, c. 8Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910Section fourteen, Sub-section (3); Section forty-four, Sub-section (1); the words "and on licences for motor cars" in Sub-section (1) of Section eighty-eight; Sub-section (3) of Section eighty-eight; and Section ninety-one.

pose of the Business to be concluded at Eleven of the clock this day.

Question put, "That this be the Schedule of the Bill."

Division No. 91.]

AYES.

[11.10 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)Fiennes, Hon. Eustace EdwardMarshall, Arthur Harold
Acland, Francis DykeFitzgibbon, JohnMason, David M. (Coventry)
Adamson, WilliamFlavin, Michael JosephMasterman, C. F. G.
Addison, Dr. C.France, G. A.Meagher, Michael
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.Furness, Stephen W.Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Agnew, Sir George WilliamGelder, Sir W. A.Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)
Ainsworth, John StirlingGibson, Sir James P.Menzies, Sir Walter
Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)Gill, A. H.Millar, James Duncan
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud)Goddard, Sir Daniel FordMolloy, M.
Anderson, A. M.Goldstone, FrankMond, Sir Alfred Moritz
Armitage, R.Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)Money, L. G. Chiozza
Ashton, Thomas GairGreig, Colonel J. W.Montagu, Hon. E. S.
Baker, H. T. (Accrington)Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir EdwardMooney, J. J.
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.)Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)Morgan, George Hay
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)Morrell, Philip
Barnes, George N.Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)Muldoon, John
Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)Hackett, J.Munro, R.
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)Hall, Frederick (Normanton)Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)Hancock, J. G.Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.
Barton, W.Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)Neilson, Francis
Beauchamp, EdwardHardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)Nolan, Joseph
Beck, Arthur CecilHarmsworth, R L.Norman, Sir Henry
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)Nugent, Sir Walter R.
Bentham, G. JHarvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Bethell, Sir J. H.Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. AugustineHarwood, GeorgeO'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Black, Arthur W.Haslam, James (Derbyshire)O'Doherty, Philip
Boland, John PiusHaslam, Lewis (Monmouth)O'Donnell, Thomas
Booth, Frederick HandelHavelock-Allan, Sir HenryOgden, Fred
Bowerman, C. W.Haworth, Arthur A.O'Grady, James
Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)Hayden, John PatrickO'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Brigg, Sir JohnHayward, EvanO'Malley, William
Brocklehurst, W. B.Henderson, Arthur (Durham)O'Neill. Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Bryce, J. AnnanHerbert, Col. Sir IvorO'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnHigham, John SharpO'Shee, James John
Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasHinds, JohnO'Sullivan, Timothy
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.)Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Palmer, Godfrey
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)Holt, Richard DurningParker, James (Halifax)
Byles, William PollardHome, C. Silvester (Ipswich)Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Carr-Gomm, H. W.Howard, Hon. GeoffreyPearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)Hudson, WaltePease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)Hughes, S. LPhilipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)
Chancellor, H. G.Hunter, W. (Govan)Pointer, Joseph
Chapple, Dr. W. A.Isaacs, Sir Rufus DanielPollard, Sir George H.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburghshire)Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Clancy, John JosephJohnson, W.Power, Patrick Joseph
Clynes, John R.Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Collins, G. P. (Greenock)Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Condon, Thomas JosephJones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Cory, Sir Clifford JohnJowett, F. W.Pringle, William M. R.
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)Joyce, MichaelRadford, G. H.
Crawshay-Williams, EliotKeating, M.Raffan, Peter Wilson
Crooks, WilliamKellaway, Frederick GeorgeRainy, A. Rolland
Crumley, PatrickKing, J. (Somerset, N.)Raphael, Sir Herbert H.
Davies, E. William (Eifion)Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Lansbury, GeorgeReddy, M.
Dawes, J. A.Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th)Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Delany, WilliamLevy, Sir MauriceRedmond, William (Clare)
Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasLewis, John HerbertRendall, Athelstan
Dewar, Sir J. A.Lough, Rt. Hon. ThomasRichardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Dickinson, W. H.Low, Sir F. (Norwich)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Dillon, JohnLundon, T.Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Donelan, Captain A.Lyell, Charles HenryRoberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)Lynch, A. A.Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)Robinson, Sydney
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)MacGhee, RichardRoch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master ofMaclean, DonaldRoche, Augustine (Louth)
Elverston, H.MacNeill, John Gordon SwiftRoche, John (Galway, E.)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)MacVeagh, JeremiahRoe, Sir Thomas
Essex, Richard WalterM'Callum, John M.Rose, Sir Charles Day
Falconer, J.M'Laren, F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)Rowlands, James
Farrell, James PatrickM'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Fenwick, CharlesM'Micking, Major GilbertSamuel, J. (Stockton)
Ferens, T. R.Manfield, HarrySamuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Ffrench, PeterMarkham, Arthur BasilScanlan, Thomas
Field, WilliamMarks, G. CroydonScott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

The Committee divided: Ayes, 284; Noes, 175.

Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.Wadsworth, J.Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
Sheehy, DavidWalsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Simon, Sir John AllsebrookWalters, John TudorWiles, Thomas
Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)Wilkie, Alexander
Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)Williams, P. (Middlesbrough)
Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)Wardle, George J.Williamson, Sir A.
Summers, James WoolleyWaring, WalterWilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Sutherland, J. E.Warner, Sir Thomas CourtenayWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Sutton, John E.Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Taylor, John W. (Durham)Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)Watt, Henry A.Winfrey, Richard
Tennant, Harold JohnWebb, H.Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Thomas, James Henry (Derby)Wedgwood, Josiah C.Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)
Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)White, Sir George (Norfolk)
Trevelyan, Charles PhilipsWhite, Sir Luke (York, E. R.)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Ure, Rt. Hon. AlexanderWhite, Patrick (Meath, North)
Verney, Sir HenryWhitehouse, John Howard

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F.Gastrell, Major W. H.Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)
Anson, Sir William ReynellGibbs, G. A.Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)
Archer-Shee, Major M.Goldman, C. S.Perkins, Walter F.
Arkwright, John StanhopeGoldsmith, FrankPeto, Basil Edward
Ashley, W. WGoulding, Edward AlfredPole-Carew, Sir R.
Astor, WaldorfGrant, J. A.Pollock, Ernest Murray
Baird, J. L.Greene, W. R.Pretyman, E. G.
Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)Gretton, JohnPryce-Jones, Col. E.
Balcarres, LordGuinness, Hon. W. E.Quilter, William Eley C.
Baldwin, StanleyHaddock, George BahrRatcliff, Major R. F.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City Lond.)Hambro, Angus ValdemarRawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHamersley, A. St. GeorgeRawson, Colonel R. H.
Banner, John S. Harmood-Harris, Henry PercyRemnant, James Farquharson
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Harrison-Broadley, H. B.Rice, Hon. W. F.
Barnston, HarryHill, Sir Clement L.Rolleston, Sir John
Bathurst, Charles (Wilton)Hills, J. W.Ronaldshay, Earl of
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh HicksHill-Wood, SamuelRothschild, Lionel de
Beckett, Hon. W. GervaseHoare, S. J. G.Royds, Edmund
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Hohler, G. FitzroyRutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby
Benn, Ion H. (Greenwich)Hope, Harry (Bute)Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bennett-Goldney, FrancisHope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Sanders, Robert A.
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-Home, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)Sanderson, Lancelot
Bigland, AlfredHorner, Andrew LongSandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith-Houston, Robert PatersonScott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid)Hume-Williams, W. E.Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Boyton, J.Hunt, RowlandSpear, John Ward
Bridgeman, W. CliveHunter, Sir C. R. (Bath)Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Bull, Sir William JamesIngleby, HolcombeStarkey, John R.
Burdett-Coutts, W.Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.)Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Burn, Colonel C. R.Kebty-Fletcher, J. R.Stewart, Gershom
Butcher, J. G.Knight, Captain E. A.Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)
Campion, W. R.Lane-Fox, G. R.Switt, Rigby
Carlile, E. HildredLarmor, Sir JSykes, Alan John
Cassel, FelixLawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End)Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
Castlereagh, ViscountLewisham, ViscountTouche, George Alexander
Cator, JohnLockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.Tullibardine, Marquess of
Cave, GeorgeLowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)Valentia, Viscount
Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)Walker, Col. William Hall
Clay, Captain H. H. SpenderLyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.)Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Clive, Percy ArcherLyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)
Clyde, J. AvonMacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeaghWarde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
Cooper, Richard AshmoleMackinder, H J.Weigall, Capt. A. G.
Courthope, G. LoydMacmaster, DonaldWheler, Granville C. H.
Craig, Norman (Kent)Malcolm, IanWhite, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport
Craik, Sir HenryMason, James F. (Windsor)Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Crichton-Stuart, Lord NinianMildmay, Francis BinghamWilloughby, Major Hon. Claud
Croft, H. P.Mills, Hon. Charles ThomasWinterton, Earl
Dalrymple, ViscountMorrison-Bell, Major a. C. (Honiton)Wolmer, Viscount
Dalziel, D. (Brixton)Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. ScottMount, William ArthurWood, John (Stalybridge)
Dixon, C. H.Neville, Reginald J. N.Worthington-Evans, L.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-Newdegate, F. A.Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Du Cros, Arthur PhilipNewman, John R. P.Yate, Col. C. E.
Eyres-Monsell, B. M.Newton, Harry KottinghamYerburgh, Robert
Fell, ArthurNicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)Younger, George
Fetherstonhaugh, GodfreyOrde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Forster, Henry WilliamPaget, Almeric HughTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Dr. Hillier and Mr. Stanier.
Foster, Philip StaveleyParker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Frewen, MoretonPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Whereupon the Chairman, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 27th March, left the Chair to report the Bill to the House.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered to-morrow (Wednesday).

Bristol Corporation Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

I beg to move as an Amendment to leave out the words, "read the third time," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "re-committed to the former Committee."

This Bill confers on the Corporation of Bristol further powers as to several matters, including further borrowing powers. I offer no objection to the Bill as a Bill; all I ask for is that there should be a full and efficient audit. The promoters of the Bill object to my proposal. I cannot conceive why, but, strange to say, in Committee they fought with all their might against what I considered a proper audit. Considering that the ratepayers of Bristol have invested no less than six millions of money in an undertaking which entails a loss year by year, and that last year that loss was £150,000, which represents 1s. 10d. in the £ on the rates; considering that it has been shown that many irregularities took place in the past, you cannot wonder that numerous ratepayers seek the protection of Parliament from further repetitions of similar irregularities. For instance, the Corporation had authority to spend £109,000 on a railway connected with the dock undertaking. They borrowed and spent that sum not on the railway but on quite different and unauthorised purposes. Again, they borrowed and spent £46,000 without any borrowing powers from Parliament at all. Indeed, as the Chairman of the Committee put it, they came to Parliament with this Bill to legalise the irregularities; in other words, to be white-washed. There was a claim of the contractors for extra works amounting to £150,000, which was not mentioned in the accounts, even as a contingent liability.

Under this Bill the Corporation of Bristol asks not only for borrowing powers for specific work, but for powers to borrow and spend £150,000 for general purposes, so that the ratepayers are justified in asking for real and efficient audit. The audit in the past has not been satisfactory, and one cannot wonder at the conclusion which has been come to on all sides that there must be a change. The manager of the docks stated in cross-examination that they did not permit the auditor to allocate as between capital and revenue. The Audit Clause in the Bill was inserted by the Committee, as they believed, as the result of a compromise, but subsequent discussion showed that either they were misinformed or there was some misunderstanding. Therefore, if the Bill goes back to the Committee it will be no reflection upon them to be asked to change this Clause. The Clause reads:—
"The accounts of the Corporation relating to the dock undertaking for the financial year ending 30th April, 1912, and for each subsequent financial year, shall be audited by a chartered accountant appointed by the Corporation and approved by the Board of Trade."
Why do the Corporation insist on appointing their own auditor, although the Committee pressed upon them that they should have an auditor appointed by the Government or the Board of Trade? The only answer they gave was that it would be more convenient to have an auditor residing in Bristol. We have no objection to that at all. The Board of Trade can easily appoint an auditor. Their second objection was—[Interruption]—an auditor with a certain amount of elasticity. A member of the Committee said on this: "I suppose what you mean is that you want an auditor with an elastic conscience, and that the Government does not provide such an auditor." The Clause as it stands is an absurdity. The chartered accountant auditor in this Clause has no rights nor duties whatsoever. He does not come within the meaning of the Municipal Corporations Act of 1882. This Clause is an entire innovation. It is a bad and vicious precedent. It is because of that that I am so strongly opposed to it.

You could not have a better Clause nor a clearer definition of what an auditor should be than you have in the Port of London Bill. It says, "The accounts shall be presented in such a form and containing such particulars as may for the time being be prescribed by the Board of Trade, and shall be audited by an auditor appointed by the Board of Trade: if the auditor reports to the Board of Trade that the Port Authority have declined or neglected to comply with any of his recommendations or requirements, the Board will make an Order directing the Port Authority to comply with such recommendations and requirements." I suggest that a similar provision as regards audit should be inserted in this Bristol Corporation Bill, though I recognise certainly that it would add to the responsibilities and burdens of the Board of Trade. Therefore, before pressing my Amendment to a Division, I should very much like to hear the views of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, which I hope will be satisfactory.

In seconding this Amendment a very few words from me will suffice, because I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade will make an announcement on behalf of the Government which is likely to go a long way to meet the point that my hon. Friend and myself desire. The great objection which we had to this Bill as it was drafted was that it made no proper provision for the auditing of the Dock accounts. As the Bill was originally introduced there was no such provision whatever, but as the Bill came down from the Committee upstairs it contained a Clause which the Board of Trade admitted to be insufficient because it refers to an Act of Parliament which has no possible application to the case in point. One of the desires of the ratepayers, whose interests I am attempting to voice to-night, is that not only should the Board of Trade themselves control the appointment of the auditor, but that the Bill should contain a clear definition of the functions of the auditor of the dock accounts. I understand the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade will make an announcement to the effect that the Board of Trade intend to make a report to the Lords Committee which is to consider this Bill, and to mention in that report, not only the method of appointment but a definition of the functions of the auditor. If the hon. Member is able to make that announcement on these lines I for one shall not push my opposition to the Third Reading any further, and I shall ask my hon. Friend to ask leave to withdraw his Amendment.

Perhaps it is due to the House that I should say a few words as Chairman of the Select Committee in view of the observations of the hon. Member opposite in regard to this Clause. I should like to remind the House what the Bill was when it passed its Second Reading and came upstairs. It was an ordinary private Bill promoted by the Bristol Corporation, which had a Corporation Dock System, and this Bill, as far as an auditor is concerned, was in the same position as any Bill promoted by any corporation carrying on its municipal undertakings under the Municipal Corporations Act. The question of the auditor did not arise from any Motion in this House on Second Reading; it arose entirely by certain owners of property petitioning the Committee to consider the question of the appointment of an auditor. The Committee had to take into consideration the fact that the Bristol Corporation were bound down by the Municipal Corporations Act for the carrying on of its duties in the same way as other municipal corporations are. When the Committee considered the case with regard to the auditor, counsel on behalf of the petitioners said:—

"I have to say we need not trouble the Committee any more. It was rather suggested that when we persisted in asking for a Board of Trade auditor, that, is to say, an auditor appointed by the Board of Trade, it might be thought we desired to cast aspersions upon local auditors, but we do not wish to do anything of the sort, and in order to show our loyalty I am content, on behalf of my clients, to say that we are willing to accept an auditor approved by the Board of Trade."
That is the only way the question of the appointment of an auditor arose before the Committee. Counsel on behalf of the petitioners was quite prepared to accept an auditor appointed by the Board of Trade. There are many Members who think that municipal corporations ought to be subjected to much more severe audit than obtains under the Municipal Corporations Act. That, I submit, is an argument for the general alteration of the law. When a private Bill of this nature has passed the Second Reading and goes to a Committee upstairs, and when the petitioners are satisfied, I think that meets the case entirely. I understand that the Board of Trade since think that if they are to approve of the auditor they should appoint him.

So far as I am concerned, I should not object to the Board of Trade appointing the auditor, but it seemed to me that the owners of property were satisfied, and had got a security which they would not have had under the Municipal Corporations Act. I do not mind if the Board of Trade prefers to appoint the auditor instead of approving him, and if the Bristol Corporation do not object, I shall raise no objection. I object to the view put forward that in the Clause put in the Bill it should be set out in the same way as in the case of the Port of London Bill. That was an entirely different thing. It was setting up a body with new powers; it was an authority to purchase the docks of London at a cost of between £23,000,000 and £24,000,000, and it was absolutely necessary that Parliament should set clearly out in the Clause the appointment of the auditors and all the machinery for regulating the audits and the accounts. But when this House is dealing with a private Bill, promoted by a corporation, which is responsible under the Municipal Corporations Act, I think the Clause we put in, which was asked for by the petitioners, is not entitled to the reflection which the hon. Member for Paddington has put upon it. I hope the House will support the view of the Committee on this point.

I do not consider that the House is the proper place to make these very general observations. The Corporation of Bristol are perfectly satisfied with the auditor we have had in the past. The genesis of this opposition arises from the fact that there was a reduction in the number of the Committee at Bristol and one member who was left off the Committee to show his disapprobation of being left off moved a resolution that we should apply for a Local Government auditor. That resolution was not accepted by the corporation and only three out of 92 members of the corporation voted with that gentleman. That gentleman has followed his opposition to the Committee upstairs, and, as the Chairman of that Committee has stated to the House, an agreement was come to. We had no desire to change the auditor we have had for many years past, but to meet the opposers we were prepared to accept an auditor we might name who should be approved by the Board of Trade. Upon that proposal, whilst I was in the box giving evidence, the case was stopped, and the opposition said they were prepared to withdraw. It was a great surprise to me that, having made a bargain upstairs, they should attempt to induce hon. Members of this House to go behind it and block the Bill on the Third Beading. I am quite certain, after the statement of the Chairman of the Committee, the House will feel it ought to give the Bristol Corporation the Third Reading of this Bill. It is quite true the City of Bristol are contributing a considerable sum towards the support of the dock undertaking, but they who bear the burden are perfectly well satisfied, and do not want the sympathy of any hon. Gentleman of this House. We feel we have done quite the right thing in increasing our dock undertaking, and I am glad to inform the House that this year we shall ask for £14,000 less than we required last year, and there is every reason to believe that in a very short time the Bristol Dock undertaking will be an entirely successful undertaking. I hope the House will give the Bristol Corporation a Third Reading of this Bill.

I only rise in response to the appeal made by the hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Courthope) that I should state what the Board of Trade are prepared to do in this matter. This is a large Bill, but the only point made by either of the hon. Gentlemen is in connection with the auditor. The Clause inserted in the Bill by the Committee was inserted without reference to the Board of Trade, and we had no cognisance of it. It asks the Board of Trade to approve the auditor appointed by the corporation. That is a position which we do not very much wish to occupy. We should prefer to appoint the auditor ourselves. I have had the advantage of having a conference with the opponents and with the promoters of the Bill, and we have come to the decision that while they should nominate, the Board of Trade should actually appoint the auditor. It is supposed, I do not know by what machinery, we should have a greater opportunity of rejecting candidates put forward. We think by this means we shall secure what the hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. Arthur Strauss), I think, desires, that the auditor will not be elastic, but will be independent. Our agreement upon this point is subject to the corporation inserting in the other House certain terms and conditions as to the functions of the auditor. The hon. Member for Rye appealed to me to say we would report to the Committee in the other House that they should insert definite conditions as to the functions of the auditor. I do not think it is possible for us to do that with great definiteness, but the Board of Trade have every hope that we shall be able to agree to a Clause. In the event of that Clause not being agreed to by the opponents and promoters we shall certainly present a report to the Committee in the other House asking them to lay down definite functions for the auditor which they consider are necessary and ad- visable. We believe by that means we shall secure an independent auditor, which is the main point, I understand, of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Publicity will be provided for, and all things, such as the fixing of the fees of the auditor and defining the conditions by which he shall be dismissed, if necessary, will be definitely laid down. That really will meet the point of the argument which has been laid before the House by the two hon. Members who wish to re-commit the Bill in respect of this Audit Clause. Under these circumstances I venture to hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will not think it necessary to carry this matter to a Division and will be content to withdraw the motion.

The explanation has been most satisfactory, and under the circumstances I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Public Health (Scotland) Act (1897) Amendment Bill

Read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

And it being after half-past Eleven of the Clock on Tuesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Three minutes before Twelve o'clock.