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Commons Chamber

Volume 24: debated on Thursday 27 April 1911

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House Of Commons

Thursday, 27th April, 1911.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Luton Corporation Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

London County Council (General Powers) Bill (by Order),

Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next.

St. Andrew's Ambulance Association Order Confirmation Bill,—

Read the third time, and passed.

Severn Fisheries Provisional Order Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Thursday next.

Great Western Railway Bill [ Lords],

Sidmouth Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords],

Oystermouth Urban District Council Bill [ Lords],

Luton Gas Bill [ Lords],

Saint Mary, Radcliffe, Rectory Bill [ Lords],

Saint Mary, Prestwich, Rectory Bill [ Lords],

Winchester Corporation (Electric Supply) Bill [ Lords],

Rochdale Market Bill [ Lords],

Barry Railway Bill [ Lords],

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No 1) Bill

"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the county borough of Waterford and the counties of Kilkenny, Tipperary (North Riding), and Water-ford," presented by Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland; and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No 2) Bill

"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to King's County and the county of Kildare and the rural districts of Ballyshannon, Loughrea, and Tralee," presented by Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Clyde Navigation Bill

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

Chesham And District Gas Bill Lords

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

Dover Graving Dock Bill

Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the third time.

Local Government Provisional Orders (No 1) Bill

Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill, as amended, to be considered tomorrow.

Commons

First Report of the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendix, and a Special Report.

Special Report brought up, and read;

Report and Special Report to lie upon the Table.

Message From The Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Army (Annual) Bill, without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for empowering the Great Western Railway Company to construct new railways in the counties of Glamorgan and Carmarthen; and for other purposes." [Great Western Railway Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers on the Sidmouth Gas and Electricity Company." [Sidmouth Gas and Electricity Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to transfer to and vest in the Council of the urban district of Oystermouth the undertaking of the Oystermouth and District Waterworks Company, Limited; to authorise the Council to maintain the existing waterworks and construct new works, and to supply water within the urban district of Oystermouth and adjacent places; and for other purposes." [Oystermouth Urban District Council Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for conferring further powers upon the Luton Gas Company." [Luton Gas Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for transferring to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners certain endowments of the Rectory of Saint Mary, Radcliffe, in the county palatine of Lancaster; and for providing for the re-endowment of the said Rectory; and for the transfer of the advowson to the See of Manchester; and for the application of the income and capital of the transferred endowments; and for other ecclesiastical purposes." [Saint Mary, Radcliffe, Rectory Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for transferring to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners certain endowments of the Rectory of Saint Mary, Prestwich, in the county palatine of Lancaster; and for providing for the re-endowment of the said Rectory; and for the transfer of the advowson to the See of Manchester; and for the application of the income and capital of the transferred endowments; and for other ecclesiastical purposes." [Saint Mary, Prestwich, Rectory Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer powers upon the Corporation of Winchester in relation to their acquisition of the undertaking of the Winchester Electric Light and Power Company, Limited, and to the supply of electricity; and for other purposes in connection therewith. [Winchester Corporation (Electric Supply) Bill [ Lords.]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the improvement of Rochdale Market, for increasing the capital of the proprietors, and enlarging the powers of the proprietors and trustees of the said market; and for other purposes." [Rochdale Market Bill [ Lords.]

And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to enable the Barry Railway Company to construct railways in the county of Monmouth; and for other purposes." [Barry Railway Bill [ Lords.]

University Of Glasgow

Copy presented,—of Abstract of Accounts of the University of Glasgow for the year 1909–10 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Factory And Workshop (Homework)

Copy presented,—of Order, dated 10th April, 1911, made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, revoking and re-enacting, with additions, the Order of the 23rd May, 1907, applying to certain classes of work the provisions of Sections 107, 108, and 110 of The Factory and Workshop Act, 1901 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Board Of Agriculture And Fisheries

Return ordered, "of the number of Steam and Motor Trawlers registered at Ports in the States of Western Europe on the 31st day of December, 1910, compared with the corresponding number in 1907 (in continuation of Return Cd. 4236, Board of Agriculture and Fisheries."—[ Sir Archibald Williamson.]

Prices Of Exported Coal

Return ordered, "giving the quantities of Coal exported from each of the ports of the United Kingdom, by quarterly periods in 1910, at prices not exceeding 5s., above 5s. but not exceeding 6s., above 6s. but not exceeding 7s., and so on (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 77, of Session 1910)."—[ Mr. Laurence Hardy.]

Oral Answers To Questions

British Diplomatic And Consular Service

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he proposes to take any steps for the re-arrangement of the diplomatic and consular service, so that British commercial interests should receive more active support from British legations in foreign countries than they have done in the past?

I am afraid that I do not understand the first suggestion contained in the question; and I do not admit the second suggestion. If the hon. Member will give me a specific case of want of proper support, it shall be enquired into.

The question was put with a view to seeing in what way our commercial position with foreign countries—

The hon. Member is entitled to ask a question, but not to make any statement.

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs (1) if he had any information as to an intention of the German Government to appoint technical advisers to their diplomatic service abroad; and, if so, whether he would consider the advisability of making similar appointments in the interests of British trade, and (2) if he would prepare for discussion at the Imperial Conference the question of the appointment of technical advisers to be attached to British legations abroad in the interests of the trade of the British Empire?

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether his attention had been called to the determination of Germany to employ trade diplomatists in foreign capitals; and whether it is proposed to make similar appointments at the British Embassies and Legations?

I would point out to hon. Members that there are at present six Commercial Attaches for Europe, one for Japan, and one for China. Moreover, certain of the Dominions already possess their own trade agents. It is therefore not proposed to submit this question to the Imperial Conference.

Foreign Office (Junior Clerks' Hours)

asked the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether he had yet come to any decision as to the possibility of allowing the working hours of the junior clerks in the Foreign Office to terminate, except in cases of emergency, at two o'clock, instead of at four o'clock, on Saturday afternoon?

No decision has yet been reached, but the Secretary of State is at present of opinion that the general state of business in his Department is not such as will readily admit of a reduction of working hours.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if any negotiations have taken place between the Congested Districts Board and Mr. Chichester Constable for the sale by the latter of his property at Runamoat, in the county Roscommon; if so, when did these negotiations commence; what is the present condition of them; and whether there is any likelihood in the near future of this property being acquired?

The Congested Districts Board were in negotiation with Mr. Chichester Constable as to the sale of this estate from 1899 up to February, 1910. He then informed the Board that he would not sell unless he was paid the price he asked in cash, and in these circumstances the Board do not consider it probable that the estate can be acquired in the near future.

asked what has been the result, if any, of the request addressed to the Trinity College authorities to expedite the sale of their estate in and around Cahirciveen?

I have communicated, as I promised, with the Congested Districts Board, who inform me that the rental and maps in the case of this estate have not yet been furnished. The preparation of such documents necessarily involves considerable time.

asked whether the owners of the Lady Mossman and Miss Nicholson estates, situate in the Lakeview electoral division of the Sligo union, have been recently approached by the Congested Districts Board with a view to purchase; and, if so, can he say what has been the result of the negotiation?

The owners of both these estates have recently been asked by the Congested Districts Board if they were willing to negotiate for the sale of their property, but so far no reply has been received.

asked whether the Congested Districts Board have yet approached Palmer M'Loghry, Esquire, Rusheen, Riverstown, county Sligo, with the view to the purchase of his estate, situate in the Templeranny electoral divivion, Boyle (No. 2) union, county Sligo; and, if so, with what result?

The Congested Districts Board have communicated with the owner of the estate referred to, but so far without any result. They will again write to him.

asked whether, in case the Congested Districts Board decide to purchase the estate of Miss Nicholson, which estate is situated in Leitrim North and rural district of Tubbercurry, county Sligo, the non-residential grazing farm on this estate would also be purchased and utilised for the enlargement of the small holdings in the district?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on this subject on the 10th April.

asked whether agreements have been made between Sir Gilbert King and his tenants in the parish of Kilmore, county Roscommon, for direct sale by the former of their holdings to the tenants; whether these agreements have yet been considered by the Estates Commissioners and the holdings defined to be an estate; and, if not, whether, before coming to a decision on this question, the Estates Commissioners will consider the necessity of including within the property to be sold the large amount of untenanted land, which comprises a portion of this property, which is needed for the enlargement of uneconomic holdings?

Agreements have been entered into as stated in the question. When the estate is reached in order of priority the matter referred to in the concluding paragraph will be duly considered by the Estates Commissioners.

asked why the Board of Works refused to sell John Rourke, Cloneyheniogue, Lusmagh, King's County, his farm under the Land Purchase Acts; and, in view of the fact that all the surrounding lands have been sold off, will something be done to compel the Board of Works to treat the man fairly, and not keep him outside the Act of Parliament, which has been availed of by every tenant for miles around him?

The Board of Works are advised that the Land Purchase Acts do not apply to these lands, which are held on an agreement terminable at any time on three months' notice.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his statement that the claim for an opportunity of discussing the present position of land purchase in Ireland is a most reasonable one and that he appreciated the importance and urgency of the question as much as the senior Member for the City of Cork, he will arrange that the vote for the Chief Secretary's salary or for the Land Commission shall be put down for the first day of Irish Supply, so as to enable the subject to be discussed?

I have already agreed that the question of Irish education shall be put down for the first day of Irish Supply, but I will arrange that a later opportunity shall be given for the discussion for which the hon. Member asks.

Royal Irish Constabulary

asked what sums of money have been taken out of the Royal Irish Constabulary canteen fund, Phoenix Park depot, for the last ten years, and to what purposes they are allocated; who constitute the committee in charge of the Royal Irish Constabulary canteen; and by whom is the appointment or election of the committee made?

As regards the first paragraph of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to his question on this subject on the 27th March. The canteen is managed by a committee consisting of three officers serving at the depot, who are selected by the commandant quarterly. A sub-committee is also formed by the commandant monthly in such a way that each company and troop will be represented by one man. The sub-committee consists of one head constable, one sergeant, one acting sergeant, and two constables, and at least one of its members must be a married man.

asked whether money has been provided out of the Royal Irish Constabulary canteen fund at the depoôt for the erection of a cricket pavilion in the Phœnix Park, and also for the construction of a gymnasium at the depoôt; if so, how much in each case; and whether he will consider the desirability of providing the cost of the pavilion and the gymnasium by the State instead of taking it out of a private fund belonging to the police?

Six hundred and twenty-five pounds were paid in 1885 for the erection of a cricket pavilion, and £698 was paid in 1898 for the erection and equipment of a gymnasium. Both sums were provided from the Canteen Fund. Since 1905 the upkeep of the gymnasium has been paid out of public funds, but it was decided in that year that the question of recovering from the State the original outlay on the gymnasium could not be considered, and I see no reason to depart from that decision.

asked the number of policemen who were in the parish of Kilmore, county Roscommon, on Sunday the 23rd April; how many of these were specially drafted in for that day; from what stations they were imported; what was the expense incurred, and by whom it would be paid; further, whether there was any call for an extra force of police from any of the people of the parish, except that made by the agent of a property consisting of untenanted land in the district which he considered might be discussed at a public meeting held that day in Kilmore and addressed by two Members of Parliament; and whether this is sufficient reason for the introduction of a large extra force of police?

On the 23rd April, twenty-three police were on duty in Kilmore, of whom eighteen were drafted in from Strokestown, Elphin, Hillstreet, and Gillstown. The expense incurred will be defrayed from the Constabulary Vote. The police authorities, who are responsible for the preservation of the peace, considered that the force mentioned was necessary on the occasion in question.

asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been called to the declaration of Judge Bodkin at the opening of the Ennis quarter sessions on 20th April, that county Clare deserved congratulations that there were so few crimes in it, and that compared with English counties of the same size and population the contrast would be strikingly in favour of county Clare; and whether he will now take steps to reduce the police force in county Clare to the proportions corresponding to the most favourably reputed English counties?

I have seen a newspaper report of Judge Bodkin's address referred to. The responsible police authorities are not prepared at present to recommend a reduction in the police force in county Clare.

Is it not the fact that at the last Assizes the judge commented upon the improved condition of the county, and will the right hon. Gentleman consider if it is possible to make some reduction in the extremely large force of police which is a great burden upon the ratepayers and which is really unnecessary?

It will be in the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman that the judge also stated at the same time that the state of affairs in the county of Clare is most unsatisfactory.

May I ask whether it is not the fact that the right hon. Gentleman could not possibly recollect that because the judge never said it?

I am very glad to know that the state of Clare is improved, and we all look forward to the period when it will improve even more than it has done, but the police have within their knowledge quite recently occurrences in that admirable county which make it impossible for me at present to recommend any reduction of the police force.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, as this is a serious matter affecting the credit of a great county, whether it is not the fact that judged by statistics by any test, there is far less crime of any kind in the county of Clare than in any British town?

I have no doubt that there is a great deal of substance in the observation of the hon. Member. At the same time, there have been within the last few days instances of firing and wounding in Clare, which make it impossible for me to give it that clean bill of health which it wishes me to declare.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is more crime in the city of Bristol than in the whole county of Clare?

Barrow Drainage Scheme

asked whether the securities to the credit of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction in Ireland, representing capital and unexpended balances, on the 31st March, 1910, amounted to £276,446, plus £35,000 to credit in the Bank of Ireland, making a total of £311,416; at what subsequent dates, respectively, during the financial year 1910–11 were the various endowments under the Agriculture and Technical Acts, and other Acts, and under the Ireland Development Grant, due and payable to the Department; if there is at all times a sum well over £200,000 to the credit of the Department; and, under the circumstances, would it be a proper application of a small part of the above fund to carry out the drainage scheme of the Barrow recommended by the Viceregal Commission on Arterial Draiange (Ireland), which reported in 1907?

The cash value of the securities referred to was £246,759 on the 31st March, 1910. Adding the £35,000 then on deposit in the Bank of Ireland, the total cash value was £281,759, the whole of which sum is hypothecated. The liabilities on this sum are set forth on pages 8 to 10 of the last Annual Report of the Department of Agriculture. The several items of income under the Agriculture and Technical Instruction Act and other Acts and from the Ireland Development Grant are received at various dates, mostly towards the end of the financial year. The funds of the Department are applied under Statute for the purposes of agriculture, technical instruction, and fisheries, and could not be properly diverted to a scheme of arterial drainage.

Does not Section 16 of the Act creating the Board say that any surplus remaining shall be applied to agriculture and other rural industries; and is not the drainage of the country an agricultural purpose?

I do not think it was in the contemplation of Parliament when it appropriated these by no means excessive sums for the promotion of agriculture and rural industries that any large portion of the money should be diverted to such expensive schemes as arterial drainage. I think at any rate other schemes have predominant claims.

What are the Board of Works going to do seeing they have received authority from the Treasury to proceed with the drainage?

I am afraid I must ask for notice as that Department is not under control.

Is there not a sum of £200,000 or thereabouts already to the credit of this Department?

Evicted Tenants (Ireland)

asked whether two evicted tenants named, respectively, John Lawrence and James Cassidy, both of Rathmore, Portarlington, King's County, have been reinstated in their old holdings on the Warburton estate, Garryhinch, which has been sold to the tenants through the Land Judge's Court; and, in view of the fact that those tenants have been out of possession for the past six years, that their houses have fallen into dilapidation, and that they are bereft of any means, what provision, if any, has been made enable them to work their farms?

The Estates Commissioners cannot trace the receipt of any applications from John Lawrence or James Cassidy.

asked whether it is the intention of the Estates Commissioners to provide James Kennedy, evicted tenant, Army Hill, Moneygall, King's County, with an equivalent to the holding he was evicted from twenty-three years ago; and, in view of the fact that the untenanted lands on the estate known as Adamstown Upper are to be distributed among the deserving applicants in the district, will Kennedy's claim be considered?

An application was received from James Kennedy for reinstatement in a holding on the estate of Colonel Blackett, King's County, the greater part of which is now in the occupation of another tenant. Kennedy was offered a holding on another estate which he refused. His application will be further considered when the estate upon which his former holding is situate comes before the Estates Commissioners to be dealt, with under the Land Purchase Acts.

asked whether the Estates Commissioners were aware that the farm from which John Sullivan was evicted at Richfordstown, near Clonakilty, county Cork is derelict and on the hands of the landlord, Mr. Jasper Lucas; and what steps, if any, had been taken by them to reinstate the evicted tenant?

The Estates Commissioners have been informed by the owner that Sullivan's former holding is intermixed with other lands which are worked by him and which are his only means of livelihood, and he is not prepared to sell the holding. Sullivan's name has been noted for consideration in the allotment of untenanted land which may be acquired by the Commissioners

Census (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary whether he was aware that the Census enumerator at Banagher, who is a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary, has refused to accept the Census return filled up by Mr. C. J. O'Riordan on the ground that it is filled up exclusively in Irish; and whether, in view of the arrangements made by the Registrar-General for the acceptance of Census returns filled up in Irish, he would state what steps he proposed to take in the matter?

The facts are as stated. Information in Irish can only be accepted from those who speak Irish only, and arrangements have been made to facilitate all such persons. The Census forms provide for a full return of the number of persons who speak Irish only and Irish and English. In the event of English-speaking persons, such as Mr. O'Riordan, refusing to fill the form in any language but Irish, the practice is that the form is translated at the central office and the translation is verified by the enumerator.

Is this the only person in Ireland who has filled up the Census return in Irish?

Untenanted Land (King's County)

asked why the Estates Commissioners refused to purchase the untenanted land on the estate of O'Hara Trench, near Banagher, King's County; and whether this land has now been taken over by eleven months' graziers, amongst the latter being Mr. Burdett, a landlord who is letting his own land on the eleven months' system?

The Estates Commissioners have purchased and distributed the untenanted land on the estate referred to. They refused to purchase the holding held by Captain Burdett as tenant unless it was sold to them as untenanted land for the purpose of distribution. The Commissioners have been informed that the vendors received a higher offer for the lands than that named by the Commissioners, and that, being trustees for sale, they had accepted the higher offer.

West Africa (Gold Mine Survey)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Mr. R. G. Rogerson, who is mentioned in a prospectus issued by the Werompi (Ashanti) Rubber and Gold Concessions Company, Limited, as having surveyed certain gold mines in West Africa, was formely a surveyor to the Crown Agents for the Colonies?

Teachers' Superannuation (Scotland)

asked the Lord Advocate whether the new draft scheme of superannuation for teachers has been issued to the school boards of Scotland; and if he will cause a similar copy to be issued to the Members of Parliament for Scotland?

The answer to both parts of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether a pension officer is authorised to stop or revoke a pension duly granted by a pension committee without the instructions of the Board of Customs?

Pension officers have no power, either with or without the authority of the Board of Customs and Excise, of revoking pensions granted by the pension authority. In cases in which it is clear that disqualification has arisen, payment of pension is provisionally stopped pending the decision of the pension authority, but pension officers have instructions not to make such provisional stoppages without previous reference to the Board, except in certain clearly defined classes of cases, and where the evidence of disqualification is conclusive.

Income Tax Collection

asked the names of Scottish railway companies that were required to pay Income Tax by the statutory date this year, and the names of those for whom the time was extended?

Under Statute Income Tax is payable by railway companies in Scotland on or before the 1st January, and application for the payment of the tax was made to them, as to other taxpayers, in the ordinary course.

In view of the fact that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated that this temporary remission of Income Tax is the regular practice in former years, may I ask that the Scottish companies may for the sake of fairness have priority in future years in the same circumstances of over budgetting?

It is rather a long question, and I should like to see it before I can answer it. It seems to me entirely not in accordance with any facts known to me.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury the amount of Income Tax due in respect of the year 1910–11, exclusive of Super-tax, which was not paid into the Exchequer on 31st March, 1911; what was the approximate percentage which this sum bears to the total amount of Income Tax, exclusive of Super-tax, due for the same year; and what were the similar percentages for the years ending 31st March, 1905, 1906, and 1907?

I beg to refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Baronet, the Member for the City of London, on the 18th instant, by which he will see that we cannot give the information desired in the two first parts of the question.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the distinction between my question and that of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), who inquired the proportion of money received by the Income Tax Commissioners, whereas I have asked for the amount which was not paid into the Exchequer—two separate things.

The hon. Gentleman asks me "the amount of Income Tax due in respect of the year 1910–11, exclusive of super-tax which was not paid into the Exchequer." First of all, I should have to find out what was the amount of Income Tax which was due.

Will he give me the best approximate percentage which this sum bears to the total amount of Income Tax, exclusive of Super-tax due for the same year—the word approximate being put in the question for the purpose.

It it is quite clear what the difference between his question and that of the hon. Baronet is, but when you deal with figures at the Treasury it is better not to deal with approximate figures. As soon as I have the actual figures I will give them, but until then I will not give approximate figures.

Will he give us these approximate figures before the question of Income Tax is discussed in Committee?

Will he give us the actual figures before the matter is discussed in Committee?

Yes, if that is possible, but it depends upon the date at which the figures are discussed in Committee.

asked at what dates in the years 1905, 1906, 1907, and 1908 Income Tax was received by the Inland Revenue from each of the eight railway companies already announced; and on what dates were these sums, or their approximate equivalent, paid into the Exchequer in each of those years?

The second moiety of the Income Tax payable by the companies in question was received from them by the Inland Revenue in the four years specified between the 20th and the 30th March, except in two cases, where the dates were 31st March and 1st April. Payment to the Exchequer was made on the following day. For the year 1909–10, the second moiety was not paid by the railway companies nor by the taxpayers generally until after the close of the financial year, except in one case, where payment was made on 29th March.

Was the money paid into the Exchequer before the end of the financial year in those cases for the years stated in my question, and not for the subsequent year that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned?

asked whether there were any companies, firms, or persons, other than the eight railway companies already announced, to whom requests have been made not to pay Income Tax till after 31st March?

I beg to refer to my reply to the hon. Member for the Brent-ford Division of Middlesex on the 20th instant?

Has the right hon. Gentleman not received any further information since that date, or made any further inquiry?

No. There was no need to make any further inquiry and I have received no further information.

asked why persons who have failed to pay small sums of Income Tax have had their goods distrained while at the same time large and wealthy companies have been advised that they might delay payment; and if this differentiation of treatment was adopted with the knowledge or under the instructions of the Treasury?

If the hon. Member will consult my reply of the 20th instant to the hon. Member for the Kingswinford Division he will see that there is no justification whatever for the suggestion contained in the question.

Is it not a fact that small Income Tax-payers for some weeks past have been and are now being distrained upon?

I do not know of any actual instances, but I am willing to assume that certain small payers who have not paid have been distrained upon, and that has been done in every year that I know of. In no case that I know of, though I have heard of them, have any such proceedings been taken until a period of grace was given long in excess of the period mentioned in connection with the railway companies.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware, from the proof furnished to him, that there has been exceptional severity in many districts this year?

No, I am not aware of it. The hon. Member sent me five cases, in one of which there was absolute refusal to pay any Income Tax at all. These were sedulously collected from an area containing some millions of people.

Is it not a fact that at the time these small Income Tax-payers were distrained upon the Income Tax due from the railway companies had not been paid, and no distraint was made on the property of the railway companies for it?

No, it is not true. What happened was this. In the case of the railway companies, as I have repeatedly explained, their payments were due on 20th March. Collection was ordered by an officer of the Inland Revenue to make them by 30th March, ten days after the date when it was due. That was by an accident delayed until three or four days after that date, making fourteen days in all. In no case that I know of has distraint been made upon any person until more than two months has elapsed after the date when it was due.

Has the right hon. Gentleman the smallest warrant for saying the cases to which he refers were sedulously collected from several millions of people, and if so, what?

My warrant for saying it is this. The hon. Member stated the fact to the House. I asked him to collect and send me any cases he had. He sent me five cases, one of which was a point-blank refusal to pay. There were four other cases, which represented, I suppose, all that he could collect out of not merely the Mile End district, which he represents, but a large portion of the East End of London.

asked on what system are the periodic instalments of their remuneration paid to collectors of Income Tax?

Provided the collector's duties are satisfactorily performed, an advance of half of his normal remuneration is made on 1st of Febraury, when the date of closing the collection is 28th February; of one-third on 1st February and one-third on 1st March, when the date of closing is 31st March; and of one-fourth on 1st February, 1st March, and 1st April respectively, when the date of closing is 30th of April.

Have not the sums withheld from the full payments in usual years been withheld in the same proportion this year?

I do not quite understand the question. No departure has been made this year from the practice of former years.

National Debt Office (Appointment Of Assistant-Comptroller)

asked (1) what were the reasons for postponing the appointment of Assistant-Comptroller of the National Debt Office from the 30th July of last year until the present month; whether the duties of the Assistant-Comptroller have been efficiently performed by the office staff during the last 10 months; and what were the grounds for ultimately making the appointment outside the ranks of the Civil Service; (2) at what date was the post of Assistant-Comptroller of the National Debt Office offered to Mr. Soares; what were the qualifications of the late Government Whip for the appointment; what is the salary attached to the office; at what date will Mr. Soares become eligible for pension; what will be the amount of pension to which he will be entitled; and (3), whether the appointment of Assistant-Comptroller of the National Debt Office was conferred on Mr. Soares, a Junior Lord of the Treasury, because there was no one eligible for promotion in the National Debt Office or in any other department of the Civil Service; and, if not, on what grounds this appointment was made from outside the Civil Service?

asked on what grounds the late Member for the Barnstaple Division was appointed to the position of Assistant-Comptroller of the National Debt Office; whether the late Assistant-Comptroller had actuarial qualifications and long experience in the office; whether such qualifications and experience are essential for the discharge of the duties; whether the new Assistant-Comptroller has any actuarial qualifications or any experience for the office; whether he gave ill-health as the reason for the resignation of his position as a Liberal Whip; whether, in his new office, he will be expected to keep office hours as the late Assistant-Comptroller did, and what these office hours are; whether this position of Assistant-Comptroller has been almost invariably filled in the past by the promotion of some qualified person serving in the office; if he is aware that, of the thirty-three officials in this office, no less than fourteen have put themselves to the labour and expense of qualifying as associates or fellows of the Institute of Actuaries; and whether it is now the settled policy of the Treasury to discourage ability and good service by the introduction into an office of unqualified outsiders over the heads of the qualified men of long service in the office?

Sir Ernest Soares was appointed to the post of Assistant-Comptroller of the National Debt Office on the ground that he would bring to that post a ripe legal knowledge and training which would be of advantage to the office. The late Assistant-Comptroller had actuarial qualifications, which are a requisite in the subordinate posts he had previously held in the Department, but which are not an essential in the two highest positions. Sir Ernest did not resign his appointment as Whip owing to ill-health, and will be expected to keep the ordinary office hours, which are from 10–5 legally, but by custom in the higher posts of much longer duration. This position has been filled by appointment from outside as often as it has been filled from inside the office. The Treasury will always be willing to encourage ability wherever discoverable, but good service in subordinate appointments does not necessarily indicate ability or capacity to fill the higher positions in the Civil Service. The salary attached to the office of Assistant - Comptroller of the National Debt Office is £800 a year, rising by annual increments of £50 to £1,000 a year. Under the Superannuation Acts the holder is eligible for pension after completion of ten years' service if retired on the ground of age or ill-health. In such event the amount of the pension would be one-eightieth of his retiring salary for each completed year of service.

Is there no one in the National Debt Office of sufficient ability to entitle him to this promotion?

I have already said in my opinion there is no one suited to fill this post.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my first question, none of the points of which have been touched?

The reason for postponing the appointment of Assistant-Comptroller was that there was at the time no one in the office, and there is now no one in our judgment, who is fitted to do the work which is required of the second officer in the Department. It is responsible and difficult work, and it is not easy for some time to find persons exactly suited to it. The duties have not been performed by the staff during the last ten months, but by the Secretary to the Comptroller-General, who has been doing double duty.

If it be necessary now that the person should have legal qualifications for this position, how is it that that qualification was not necessary when the appointment was last made, seeing that the late Assistant-Comptroller had not legal but actuarial qualifications? May I ask further, seeing that the appointment is under Civil Service conditions, if the ordinary Civil Service conditions in regard to examination has been complied with in this case?

May I ask whether it is not the fact that Sir E. Soares informed the Government that he could not hope to hold his seat in Devonshire while the Government intended to proceed with the Home Rule Bill for Ireland?

Is it not the fact that this particular practice of dumping politicians on the National Debt Office will prevent competent persons from joining that office and rising to the higher positions, and, further, is it not the fact that Sir E. Soares's legal knowledge must have become rather rusty while acting as a Government Whip?

I understand that, as regards the numerous questions which have been put to me, opportunity for discussion will arise on the Motion for getting the Speaker out of the Chair on the Civil Service Estimates. That will be a very suitable opportunity for answering the questions which have been addressed to me from all parts of the House. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden), I cannot say, without inquiry, whether or not a medical certificate has been given to Sir E. Soares, but from the information in my possession I can say that it would be not at all difficult for him to get one, if he has not already obtained one.

Justices Of The Peace (Appointments)

asked the Prime Minister whether, having in view the dissatisfaction and mistrust felt concerning the present method of appointing persons to serve as justices of the peace, he will consider the advisability of affording to the Members of this House an early opportunity for the discussion of the whole question?

The following questions on the same subject were also on the Notice Paper:—

To ask the Prime Minister whether he contemplates any change in regard to the appointment of justices of the peace?

To ask the Prime Minister whether he can make any statement as to the future appointments to the county bench?

To ask the Prime Minister what definite steps had been taken during the past year to secure a more satisfactory method of selecting justices of the peace?

To ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the dissatisfaction which has been expressed for years past with the composition and decisions of many benches of magistrates, he would either modify the existing magistracy by a large number of new appointments or would introduce legislation by which magistrates should retain office only for a limited period, subject to possible reappointment?

To ask the Prime Minister whether he would give a day for the discussion of the appointments of justices of the peace?

To ask the Prime Minister in how many counties advisory committees have been appointed to help the Lord Lieutenants and the Lord Chancellor in the selection of magistrates; whether these committees have proved successful; and whether they have tended to reduce political bias as a factor in the selection of the magistrates?

While I am quite prepared to deal with most of the points involved in the questions, there are still one or two matters on which I am completing my information, and I should therefore prefer to postpone my reply till Monday.

Imperial Conference

asked the Prime Minister if the Government intends to obtain the opinion of the Imperial Conference with reference to the question of subsidies and contracts for the conveyance of mails between this country and the Dominions?

The general question of postal communications will be discussed at the Conference.

Minister Of Commerce

asked the Prime Minister if he contemplates giving the House an opportunity of discussing the question of the appointment of a Minister of Commerce?

Refreshment Houses (Scotland)

asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the fact that strong objections are entertained by those interested in the more effective control of refreshment houses in Scotland to the passage of the Shops Bill, in its present form, unless the Burgh Police (Scotland) Bill is also passed into law; and if, in view of the non-contentious character of the latter Bill, time can be taken for the Second Beading stage before the Shops Bill passes through Committee?

I quite concur with my hon. Friend's view, and I will do my best to meet his wishes.

Budget, 1911–12

asked the Prime Minister if he can say when the Budget will be presented; what is the reason for the delay; and why it was not presented at the ordinary interval after the close of the last financial year?

There is no fixed or usual date for the presentation of the Budget. I cannot name the precise date for its introduction at present, but I hope that it will be as soon as the Parliament Bill is disposed of in this House.

May I ask whether any assurance can be given by the Prime Minister that when the Budget is brought in it will be passed in the usual way, and not piecemeal in three portions, as in the case of the Budget of last year?

We have only just got rid of last year's Budget, and I should not like to venture to give any assurance as to the future in view of our experience in the past.

Common Jurors In Criminal Cases

asked the Prune Minister whether his attention had been called to the fact that, under existing conditions, men summoned to act as common jurors in criminal cases not only receive no remuneration for their services, but, if living at a distance, have to pay their own travelling expenses, and are in consequence losers of both time and money; and whether he will undertake to give Members of Parliament an opportunity, before voting for salaries for themselves, for work voluntarily undertaken, to vote for fair remuneration for those working men who are compelled to serve the State as common jurors?

Upon the subject of the status and remuneration of jurors—which has, in my opinion, no connection with the question of payment of Members—I must refer the hon. Gentleman to answers given by the Home Secretary on 6th and 20th March.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, as the opportunities for discussion of questions raised by private Members are now practically nil the Government will take care to hold a preliminary inquiry before legislation is introduced?

While not satisfied with the existing state of the law in regard to the conditions under which common jurors serve in criminal cases, we think there should be some preliminary inquiry before any change is proposed.

I have had some communications on this subject. I think that there should be an inquiry either by a Departmental Committee or possibly by a Royal Commission, but I have not finally decided either upon the form of the inquiry or the terms of reference.

May I ask whether the inquiry should not be by a Select Committee of the House?

Road Board (Grants)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what is the amount of money which has been advanced by the Road Board to local bodies for the purpose of making improvements in roads; and what is the estimated cost of carrying out the improvements by such local bodies towards which the Roads Board contributed?

The total grants made by the Road Board with the approval of the Treasury to highway authorities towards works of road improvement amount to £141,568. In addition, grants amounting to about £425,000 have been indicated, and the details are now in course of settlement between various authorities and the Board. The estimated cost of carrying out the improvements to which the Board have contributed £141,568 is £246,231.

Alderley Edge School

asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that, in accordance with Section 8 of the Education Act more than ten rate-payers in the area affected have signed a petition against the transfer of the Alderley Edge School to the Cheshire county authority; and whether he will make further inquiry before agreeing to the transfer?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Very careful consideration was given to the proposal in all its bearings and, as my right hon. Friend has stated in reply to a question addressed to him by the hon. Member for the Holmfirth Division of Yorkshire on the 10th April, the transfer has already received the approval of the Board. My hon. Friend is perhaps not aware that the proposal, which was estimated to effect a saving of some £2,000 to the rates, was supported by a petition signed by 270 ratepayers.

May I ask if the ratepayers who petitioned against the transfer were accorded a proper opportunity of stating their views to the Board of Education independently of the local authority?

They had lull opportunity of stating their views to the Board, and their views were very carefully considered.

Capel Curig School, Carnarvonshire

asked the President of the Board of Education if he will state what accommodation is provided in Capel Curig, Carnarvonshire, Council school; whether such accommodation has been found suitable and adequate; how many children are attending the school and what is the teaching staff; whether any changes have recently been made by the local education authority in the staff; whether such change has been carried out with the concurrence of the managers; whether all the conditions have been fulfilled which entitled the school to a grant; and whether such grant was paid last year?

The school has recognised accommodation for forty-six infants and eighty-four older children. The accommodation is considered quite satisfactory. The average number of children on the books in the year ended 80th June, 1910, was forty-two, and the average attendance was thirty-nine; and the teaching staff consisted at that time of a certificated head-master and one supplementary teacher. The Board have not been informed of any changes in the staff. The managers failed to comply with the requirement of Article 49 of the code. It is understood that their refusal to sign the usual form certifying that the school had been conducted as a public elementary school and so forth was intended as a protest against the refusal of the local education authority, who provide the school, to substitute an uncertificated teacher for the supplementary teacher on the staff. As all other conditions of grant had been fulfilled, the Board, in the exercise of the general powers inherent in their jurisdiction, dispensed with the formality of the signature by the managers of the usual forms of certificate and paid the grant in full.

Does that giving of the grant mean that the Board agree with the local education authority that a certificated teacher is not required there?

Yes, Sir, the Board are satisfied that the school is being adequately kept up.

Education Department (Holmes' Circular)

asked what opportunity, if any, after the publication of the circular, was given to Mr. Holmes to explain the reasons which induced him to send it out, and the circumstances under which it was written?

The Noble Lord's question is not quite clear. Mr. Holmes has been in Italy for some time. The circumstances under which Mr. Holmes wrote his confidential Memorandum, and his views as to the extent of the distribution of the Memorandum amongst his colleagues, are shown on the papers in the possession of the Board, and nothing would be gained by inviting him now, after an interval of a year, to furnish further explanations.

Are we to understand that it is the practice of Ministers to shift the responsibility which ought to rest on their shoulders on to those of subordinates who are no longer in office?

Slum Dwellings (Doncaster)

asked the President of the Local Government Board under what conditions regarding rebuilding the Doncaster Corporation pulled down a large number of slum dwellings in 1908, and if these conditions have been complied with; and if he can give the House any information respecting the housing conditions of Doncaster?

Under the powers given by their Local Acts of 1904 and 1908 the Doncaster Corporation acquired and demolished numerous houses for the purpose of effecting street and other improvements, thereby displacing a considerable number of persons of the working classes. It was their duty under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1903, before entering on those houses, to submit proposals to the Board in regard to the provision of accommodation for the persons displaced, and I communicated with them, requiring a housing scheme to be submitted. I ascertained that the Corporation had erected a number of wooden dwellings to house temporarily persons displaced under the Act of 1908, and I have received a very unsatisfactory report of these dwellings, and have written to the Corporation on the subject. The Corporation submitted a scheme for the erection of houses on a site which appeared to be unsuitable, and I have refused to sanction the proposals. They are now reconsidering the matter with a view to the submission of amended proposals without delay. As regards housing conditions generally in Doncaster, I find that the medical officer of health, in his report for 1910, gives some indication of overcrowding, but I understand that the general question of housing is prominently before the Corporation at the present time.

South African Mails

asked the Prime Minister if he has received any notification from the Union Government of South Africa with reference to a Bill, which has been read a third time by the Union Parliament, by which such Government will have the power of offering the carriage of British mails to foreign shipping lines in competition with British shipping?

A Minute has been received from the Union Ministers containing the text of a clause in the Bill referred to, to which an amendment had been proposed in the Union Parliament confining mail contracts to British ships. This amendment was rejected, and the Bill as passed contains no differential provisions against British ships. On the 17th March the Union Minister of Posts and Telegraphs stated in the Union Parliament that the Union Government had never contemplated any but a British company, and never would entertain any contract with a company other than a British one.

Ministers Of Commerce (Foreign Countries)

asked the Prime Minister if he would state what countries, other than the United States and Germany, have a Minister of Commerce; and if he has any information to give the House as to the effect such appointments have had on the commercial prosperity of any such countries?

I would refer the hon. Member to the Parliamentary Paper Commercial No. 3 (1904). The Board of Trade performs the functions of a Ministry of Commerce in this country. He can form his own opinion of the effect of such offices on commercial prosperity.

Monthly Journals (Postage)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he can grant the same facilities for monthly journals, irrespective of weight, to be sent through the post for one halfpenny as are given to weekly newspapers?

The rate fixed by the Act of 1870 at which registered newspapers printed and published in the United Kingdom at intervals of not more than seven days are conveyed through the post is un-remunerative, and I am not prepared to extend it to matter not privileged by the Act.

Admiralty (Unauthorised Ensigns)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will give such instructions as may be necessary to prevent the use by vessels holding no warrant from the Admiralty of ensigns other than the red ensign?

Whenever it comes to the knowledge of the Admiralty that a vessel is using an unauthorised ensign, steps are taken to stop such use. No special instructions on the subject appear to be necessary at the present time.

Admiralty Clerks

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what is the maximum additional sum that will become chargeable to any future Navy Estimates by reason of the increased scale of salary that it is proposed to pay the Class 1 clerks of the secretariat of the Admiralty; and whether, seeing that the only reason assigned for the increased scale is that the Class 1 clerks of the Board of Trade and the Local Government Board have been placed on the higher scale, he will see his way to withdraw the concession, and so relieve the future Navy Estimates of an entirely unnecessary charge?

It would be impossible to forecast with any exactness what would be the figure asked for by my hon. Friend in the first part of the question, but it is found that on present numbers the increased expense will gradually rise from about £190 in the current financial year to about £850 in 1926–27. The reason assigned by my hon. Friend was the occasion rather than the cause for the change, and was so intended in the answer given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary on the 19th April. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative.

Gun Deafness (Royal Navy)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that although gun deafness does not cause many cases of invalidity from the Navy there are many cases of officers and men whose hearing has been impaired from this cause; whether he is aware that the use of cotton wool as a preventative is considered by the medical profession to be of little use; whether he is aware that a mixture of plasticine and cotton wool is recommended by the Home Office in workshops and factories where noise deafness is prevalent; and whether he will see that similar material is issued by the Admiralty for use on board ship by officers and men?

I am aware that there are many cases of officers and men whose hearing has been impaired for the reason given, without resulting in their being invalided from the Navy. Tests have been carried out upon various preventatives, but opinions differ very widely as to their relative efficiency. An ear paste is already prepared and issued where demanded.

Assistant Engineers (Royal Navy)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the conditions under which certain assistant engineers for temporary service were entered in the Royal Navy in 1901 and 1902, were similar, as regards promotion, to the conditions under which assistant engineers on the permanent list were entered; whether ho is aware that in 1903 engineer officers' titles were changed and the promotion of those on the permanent staff accelerated, and that such acceleration was withheld from the temporary service officers, who thereby found many junior officers promoted over their heads through no fault of their own; and whether, seeing that such temporary service officers have now become engineer lieutenants on the permanent list, but are more than two years further down in the seniority list than those with whom they were originally of equal seniority, he will consider the position of such officers, and take steps for the purpose of restoring to them the seniority that they have lost?

Assistant engineers for temporary service who entered the Royal Navy in 1901 and 1902, had to serve for six years before being eligible for transfer to the permanent list, and, if then accepted for transfer, were promoted to the rank of engineer lieutenant. Assistant engineers on the permanent list were eligible at that time for promotion after five to six years' service from date of entry, according to the results of their examinations on entry. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. The subject raised in the third part of the question was carefully considered by the Board in 1903, but it was decided that no alteration should be made in the regulation requiring six years' service before transfer to the permanent list with promotion. This decision obviously affected not only the seniority of the assistant engineers entered for temporary service, but also the relative seniority of their contemporaries on the permanent list; and I fear that for this reason it is not practicable to reconsider the decision after this lapse of time.

Stipendiary Magistrates

asked the Secretary of Stale for the Home Department if he can say approximately how many additional stipendiary magistrates would be required in order to establish in England and Wales a complete system of stipendiaries?

It would be impossible to estimate beforehand the number of stipendiary magistrates who would be required to do the work now done by the unpaid justices. Much would depend on how far country cases and cases from small towns could be brought into the larger towns; but in any case the number would amount to several hundreds.

In view of the difficulty of obtaining justice at some of these local benches, would not it be well for the Government to make inquiry as to the cost of appointing stipendiary magistrates?

I do not think I should like to commit myself to further inquiries on a subject of this sort on such short notice.

Sidney Street Attack (Police Duty)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether he is aware that the twelve or thirteen hours during which he has stated that the police were on duty in the recent disturbance in Sidney Street involved a fast ranging from twelve to twenty-one hours, and whether he intends to make arrangements to cope with such emergencies; and (2) whether he is aware that a charge against his Department has been publicly made by the Rev. Lionel Lewis to the effect that the truth about the privations of the police during the recent disturbance in Sidney Street has been deliberately concealed; and whether he will take steps to refute that charge, either by personal inspection of evidence or by public inquiry?

I have nothing to add to the answers I gave the Noble Lord on the 20th instant with regard to this matter. There is not, of course, the slightest foundation for the suggestion that anything has been concealed.

Accident Committee (Evidence)

asked when the Minutes of Evidence of the Accident Committee will be published?

Development Commissioners (Advances)

asked the Attorney General whether he can advise Members as to the power or otherwise of the Development Commissioners to make advances for industrial development in the United Kingdom under Part I. of the Development Act of 1909?

In answer to my hon. Friend I cannot advise Members of this House as to the power of the Development Commissioners. My duty is to advise the Crown.

Election Petition (Trials)

asked the Attorney-General what steps would be necessary in order to constitute the court for the trial of Election Petitions a court of three judges instead of two?

The constitution of the court for the trial of Election Petitions is now regulated by Section 2 of the Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices Act, 1879, which provides that the trial of Election Petitions should be conducted before two judges instead of one. Legislation would be necessary to constitute the court for trial of Election Petitions a court of three judges.

Will the Government also consider the propriety of going back to the old plan by which this House had control?

Will the learned Attorney-General take steps to discourage the view which is prevalent in some quarters that the decisions of the Election Petitions are not impartial?

Pilotage (Departmental Committee)

asked whether it is intended to embody in legislation any or all of the recommendations of the Report of the Departmental Committee on Pilotage; and, if so, when a Bill is likely to be introduced?

The Report is receiving consideration, and I may be able to introduce a Bill dealing with pilotage in the course of the present Session, but I cannot at present make any definite promise on the subject.

Irish Provident Assurance Company

asked whether the policy holders in the Irish Provident Assurance Company, which is now before the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland on petition for its formal winding up, will be returned the premiums paid by them to the company on their policies, or whether, without forfeiting their premiums, they will be bound to continue as policy holders in a new company which it is understood is being formed to take over the engagements of the old company; and whether, in the interval, till a scheme was prepared, the policy holders will be bound to pay their premiums?

The first part of the hon. Member's question depends on the amount of the assets possessed by the Irish Provident Assurance Company and the contract between the company and its policy-holders. Both these questions will be ascertained by the Court in the event of the Court making an order for winding-up. With regard to the second part of the question, a transfer of policies from one assurance company to another company may be effected either by order of the Court, after hearing policy-holders desiring to object, or by means of agreements made with the policy-holders individually. If the scheme of arrangement, the preparation of which has been approved by Mr. Justice Barton, is proceeded with, it cannot, as I have already pointed out, become binding on the policy-holders unless agreed to by a majority in number representing three-fourths in value of the policy-holders present, either in person or by proxy, at the meeting, and it must be approved by the Court. In no case has the Board of Trade any power of control or of supervision, nor is the Board of Trade in a position to give advice to policy-holders with regard to the payment of their premiums.

If the company be transfered, will the three-fourths majority bind the one-fourth?

New Post Office (Devonport)

asked the hon. Member for Southampton, as representing the first Commissioner of Works, whether he can explain the cause of delay in the matter of the new post office at Devonport; and whether he is aware that the present structure is in a most dilapidated condition, and that the promised new building is long overdue?

The commencement of the work has been delayed in order to provide for additional requirements and modifications desired by the Post Office. All necessary precautions have been taken to render the present structure secure. Provision has been made in this year's Estimates to begin the work.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor in office informed me that it was anticipated, when I asked for information, that the work would be commenced at the end of last year, and that the premises would be ready for occupation early in this year?

Four or five modifications have been made and this has delayed the work.

Taxi-Cab Duties And Licences (Cost Of Administration)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been drawn to the statement of Mr. W. P. Byrne, the Assistant Under-Secretary of State at the Home Office, before the committee appointed to inquire into taxi-cab fares and other matters, to the effect that the cost of administering the Acts in Loudon exceed the receipts from the duties and licences by several thousands a year; if he can state how it is that the costs of collection are so great; and whether he will endeavour to make such arrangements that these charges shall become remunerative to the State?

The statement made by Mr. Byrne related only to the revenue which is derived from the police licences granted to the proprietors, drivers, and conductors of public vehicles, and which is paid into the Metropolitan Police Fund; and I have been aware of the fact that this, revenue falls short of the expenditure which is necessitated by the licensing and regulation of these vehicles. The cost of collection of this revenue is very small. Mr. Byrne's observations had no reference to those duties on vehicles which are imposed under the Finance Acts for general revenue purposes.

War Office Contracts (Pair Wages Clause)

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether Messrs Harper Brothers, of Eccleshill, Yorkshire, claim to be allowed to pay a differential rate of wages for willeyers and fettlers; if he is aware that, where rates of wages are arranged between employers and work people, the rates for both are alike; if, therefore, the latter mode of payment is one which in practice prevails among good employers within the meaning of the Fair Wages Clause; and, if it is, whether he will take steps to enforce it; and (2) if the right hon. Gentleman will state in what respect the general industrial circumstances prevailing in Leeds, the nearest district to Messrs. Harper's, where a rate of wages for willeying and fettling is recognised between employers' and workpeople's associations, differ so as to justify him in allowing Messrs. Harper to tender as complying with the Fair Wages Clause although they only pay 5½d. per hour for fettling and 5¼d. for willeying, whilst Leeds firms have to pay 6d. per hour for ordinary time for both jobs?

The hon. Member's questions no doubt refer to Messrs. T. and H. Harper, of Apperley Bridge. Perhaps he will allow me to answer both questions together. After very full enquiry and consideration I am satisfied that the rate of wages paid by this firm to willeyers compares favourably with that which in practice prevails among good employers in the district, and that in that district it is not customary to pay identical rates for willeying and fettling. In these circumstances it does not appear that the firm are infringing the Fair Wages Clause in not adopting the higher rate recognised for Leeds, or in paying willeyers at a lower rate than fettlers.

Civilian And Army Bands

asked whether the Under-Secretary is aware of the effect of the competition of Army bands on the chances of livelihood of civilian bandsmen; whether Army bands are allowed by the commanding officers to be away from duty for long intervals, sometimes amounting to six months in the year, during which time they are in receipt of Army pay and qualifying for pensions; and, if so, under what authority the commanding officers grant such facilities?

The whole question of the competition of Army bands has been very fully considered, and explicit instructions have been issued on the subject. I am not aware of any cases in which bands have been engaged for prolonged periods, but if the hon. Member will furnish me with any particular case or cases I will make inquiries into them.

Suicide Of Sergeant Stokes (Parkhurst Barracks)

asked whether the Under-Secretary's attention has been called to the case of suicide of Sergeant Stokes, R.A.M.C., dispenser at Parkhurst Barracks; and, taking into consideration the fact that complaints have already been made on account of the shortage in the medical staff there, he will cause an inquiry to be made into the circumstances?

asked (1) if the hon. Gentleman can state how many officers and men are in charge of the Royal Military Hospital, Parkhurst, and what is the average number of patients undergoing treatment; whether the officer commanding the medical staff at Parkhurst has frequently reported officially on the paucity of his staff; if so, why no additions have been made; (2) whether the average hours of duty for non-commissioned officers at the Royal Military Hospital, Parkhurst, are from seven in the morning until eleven at night; whether during the past nine months two sergeants belonging to this hospital have committed suicide; and whether the Under-Secretary is aware that the jury returned a verdict that the last suicide was caused by ill-health and long hours of duty?

asked whether the Under-Secretary's attention had been called to the inquest held at Wroxall, Isle of Wight, on 24th April, 1911, on Sergeant Ethelbert Robert Stokes, R.A.M.C, the dispenser at Parkhurst barracks, and the suggestion of the jury that representations should be made to the War Office with a view to an inquiry being instituted regarding the conditions of employment of the medical staff at Parkhurst; whether this is the second case of suicide at Parkhurst within twelve months traceable to overwork; whether any report was made by the colonel that he was under-staffed; and, if so, when such report was received, and what action was taken thereon?

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention had been called to an inquest on Sergeant E.R. Stokes, R.A.M.C, dispenser at the military hospital, Parkhurst, on 24th April, when the jury's verdict was suicide while of unsound mind, the result of prolonged hours of duty; whether he is aware that Colonel Donegan, the chief of Parkhurst medical staff, stated that he had repeatedly reported the paucity of his staff without effect, and other evidence was given that men did regular duty from 7 a.m. till 11 p.m. daily; whether this is the second suicide of a hospital sergeant within nine months; and what action, if any, he proposes to take to prevent these occurrences?

asked whether the Under-Secretary's attention had been called to the evidence given at an inquest held at Wroxall, Isle of Wight, on Monday last, upon the body of Sergeant Stokes, R.A.M.C, whose death was found to be due to continued overwork; whether Lieutenant-Colonel Donegan had previously reported his staff to be inadequate; whether he was aware that two non-commissioned officers, who also gave evidence, stated that their hours of duty were from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. for seven days per week; whether he was aware that this was the second suicide in connection with the medical staff at Parkhurst in twelve months; and whether he proposes to take immediate action in securing the necessary addition to the staff which shall ensure a more reasonable period of hours of duty?

I will reply at the same time to these questions, all on the same subject. No information on this case beyond what has appeared in the public Press has yet reached the War Office, but orders have already been issued to the general officer commanding-in-chief for a searching inquiry. There was a suicide at Parkhurst on 29th August last, which was clearly a case of insanity, and was not apparently due in any way to overwork. The hospital is equipped for twenty-five beds, with a personnel of one officer and eight non-commissioned officers and men. The average constantly sick for the last six months was from nine to ten, and during March was fifteen; but in the latter month the ailments were mostly slight. No demand for an increase of personnel for this station has reached the War Office.

Is it not the fact that in his sworn testimony the commanding officer gave evidence to the effect that he had made repeated official applications for extra assistance and extra staff, and does the hon. Gentleman suggest that the commanding officer was committing perjury when he gave that evidence?

In light of the fact that no complaint whatever has reached the War Office, the matter is difficult to understand, and this is why we are making a full inquiry into it.

Royal Army Medical Corps

asked whether the strength of the Royal Army Medical Corps has been reduced since 1906 by 488?

The establishment of the Royal Army Medical Corps, warrant officers, non-commissioned officers and men in 1906 was 4,189, and the present establishment is 3,947, showing a decrease of 242. Of these 190 were men specially enlisted for one year in 1906 to augment the reserve and thirty-eight were reduced from South Africa in 1907, leaving a balance of fourteen for reduction in various stations since 1906.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has noticed that my question is not as to the establishment but the actual strength, and on reference to the Army (Annual) Report I find that in 1906 the strength was 5,372—

Royal Garrison Artillery (Special Reserve)

asked whether, in view of the fact that the Special Reserve Royal Garrison Artillery only get fifteen days' training, out of which have to be taken two Sundays and the days of assembly and dismissal, thus leaving them only eleven days for actual drill, the extension of this period of fifteen days is likely to be sanctioned before next year's training, so that the Royal Garrison Artillery, Special Reserve, may be on at least the same footing as the Infantry of the Special Reserve, who now get twenty-seven days?

As I informed the House in reply to a question put on the 19th instant, the question of the period of annual training for the Special Reserve, Royal Garrison Artillery, is now under consideration.

Business Of The House

Is the Prime Minister prepared to give any forecast of the business for next week?

On Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday we propose to proceed with the stages of the Parliament Bill, and I defer until Monday my statement of what business we will take on Thursday.

I am not quite sure. I would rather wait until Monday to answer.

Bills Presented

Offices Regulation Bill

"To provide that the provisions of the Factory and Workshop Act, 190], relating to the health and protection of persons employed in factories and workshops shall extend and apply to persons employed as clerks in offices, presented by Mr. BOWERMAN; supported by Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, Mr. George Roberts, Mr. William Thorne, Mr. Wardle, and Mr. Tyson Wilton; to be read a second time upon Friday, 19th May.

Cheap Trains Bill

"To amend the Law relating to Cheap Trains for the working classes," presented by Mr. BOWERMAN; supported by Mr. Hodge, Mr. Hudson, Mr. John Taylor, Mr. James Thomas, Mr. William Thorne, Mr. Tyson Wilson, and Mr. Wardle; to be read a second time upon Friday, 26th May.

Representation Of The People (No 2) Bill

"To amend the Law relating to the Representation of the People of the United Kingdom," presented by Mr. CRAWSHAY-WILLIAMS; supported by Mr. William Abraham (Rhondda), Mr. Burt, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Crooks, Mr. Enoch Edwards, Mr. Robert Harcourt, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Russell Rea, Mr. Walter Rea, and Mr. George Roberts; to be read a second time upon Thursday next.

Supply

Civil Services And Revenue Departments Estimates 1911–12

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."

Poor Law Administration

moved, as an Amendment, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add instead thereof the words, "this House endorses the unanimous condemnation of the administration of the Poor Law contained in the majority and minority reports of the recent Royal Commission, and is of opinion that the present administration of the Poor Law does not meet modern requirements and demands the immediate attention of His Majesty's Government."

There is no one in the House who will not agree that this question of the Poor Law is a most complex and difficult problem. We have to administer in education, in Poor Law relief, and in public health services an amount which totals no less a sum than £60,000,000, and so far as the Poor Law is concerned we have to deal with something like 1,700,000 people, who in one form or another, come in contact with the Poor Law authorities every year. In such a wide field as the administration of the Poor Law I do not disguise from myself the difficulty there is in making a proper selection of the subjects which it is desirable to raise; but for the purposes of debate, so far as I am concerned, I have selected three topics—the question of children and the Poor Law, the question of public health, and, in the third place, the question of general mixed workhouses. In dealing with the first subject, the question of children, the Poor Law authorities are legally compelled to deal with destitute women who are expecting to give birth to children, and we find that no less a number than 15,000 babies are born in workhouses every year. I think Mrs. Sidney Webb has rendered signal service when she has called attention to the very serious problem which is associated with the birth of so many children in the workhouses, for she has shown as a result of investigation that a child born in a workhouse stands one-third less chance of living than a child born even in a slum in Plaistow. There are children in the workhouses to-day being kept in top stories, who hardly ever know what it is to have a perambulator ride in a sunny lane, and who are removed from the joys of childhood, flowers and smiles, and kept up in the top stories of workhouses, there perhaps spend the earlier years of their lives, and returning very likely to end their older days of life in that mixed workhouse which has received the general condemnation of majority and minority alike.

Children inside the workhouses of school age in the United Kingdom number something like 10,000 in the general and sick wards, 9,000 of which of school age are found inside the workhouse itself. It is true, so far as London is concerned, that the right course is being adopted of removing the children from the workhouses, but in something like 500 of 670 provincial poor law authorities the children are not being taken out, and there seems little suggestion that they should. I suggest that the President of the Local Government Board might very well do what is within his power and issue an order which shall command that children of school age shall not be detained in the workhouses more than a week without the special permission of his inspectors, granted on his authority. The majority said in their recommendations that effective steps should he taken to secure that the maintenance of children in the workhouses should be no longer recognised as a legitimate way of dealing with them, that there should be closer supervision of children in receipt of outdoor relief, that care should be taken that the total income, from whatever source, is sufficient to afford proper food and clothing and housing conditions for the whole family, and that the public assistance authorities should ascertain that the children are being properly nourished. What do we find as a matter of fact? The poor law guardians give out, in the way of doles, one shilling, perhaps to 1s. 6d., per head of the children who are being maintained by a widowed mother at home, and there are no less than 170,000 of those children. The consequence is that the mother is divorced from her proper function and has to go out to the workshops to endeavour to increase this miserable pittance in order to bring the children up in anything like decency. The guardians say that from 4s. to 5s. per week is the proper amount when they board out children; if that be so, so far as the guardians are concerned, why not a similar amount for children who are under the care of their mother living at home?

This to me is a very startling figure, that at three years of age the out-relief children are as tall and as heavy as the average child, but after that age they are at every age smaller and lighter, and the figure becomes greater with increasing years, and the figure is greater in weight than in height. It would appear to me that this arises from the application of a wrong test of efficiency in Poor Law administration. The test of efficiency would appear to be that the guardians have reduced to a minimum the amount which they expend in outdoor relief of all kinds, and that the Board of Guardians is adjudged to have discharged its duties to the best purpose when it has reduced to an absolute minimum what it administers in the shape of relief of all kinds. I do think that a circular would be possible from the President of the Local Government Board suggesting that the amount of 1s. or 1s. 6d. per week should be raised to an amount equal to that which is given when the Board of Guardians themselves board out children. Then the overlapping which has arisen in the treatment of children is some thing which calls for immediate and radical attention from the various Government Departments concerned. We have the Poor Law authorities, and there I think the Local Government Board ought to intervene. We have the local education authority dealing with millions of children and spending something like £30,000,000 annually, either in rates or in taxes. We have also the Home Office administering something like £600,000 and dealing again with children in another state—industrial schools and the like. I pass now to my second point, that of public health, and here again overlapping is rampant. You have the Public Health service under the control and direction of the Medical Officer of Health. You have the Poor Law hospital; and you have again the local education authority doing a magnificent work in medical inspection, in the feeding of necessitous children, and now taking a lead in setting up school clinics. But the result is that there is therefore an overlapping in authorities, and a great deal of inefficiency due to people escaping the attention of any one of those authorities, and disease passing unnoted, and thus spreading amongst the populace.

4.0 P.M.

Take the case of the man suffering from phthisis, and let us imagine him living in one of the East End unions of this great City. There is a voluntary hospital, and he may get there; there is a Poor Law hospital, and he may go there; but he goes there as a last resort because the administration is punitive, rather than preventive. He knows full well that if he takes advantage of Poor Law aid he is punished to the extent of the loss of his vote, and incidentally it is felt, particularly by the poor, that they should only go to the Poor Law authority as a last resort. Then you have the opportunity, perhaps, of the man being dealt with by the local medical authority, but between them all, I am informed on credible authority, that probably in some of the parishes where consumption is rampant only 5 per cent. of the cases get dealt with through the shuffling off by one authority to the other of the three bodies who each desire to shoulder the authority and expense on to the others. The consequence of this overlapping is inefficiency, and a less proper condition of public health than there should be. When it is remembered that one-seventh of pauperism is due to consumption, this House must realise that the overlapping should cease at the earliest opportunity, and that efficient administration should take its place to deal with this great white scourge from which our people suffer. Another difficulty which comes into the matter is lack of uniformity between town and town; a man living in some towns can be dealt with without the punishment of the loss of his vote, but should he live in another that is not so. There is a lack of uniformity as between the central authority and the three different authorities, and again as amongst those different authorities. We really ought to have power conferred upon our public health authority of seeking out cases instead of there being this waiting by the authority for the application. Just as we seek out infectious disease cases, so it seems to me that in the public health service there ought to be a searching out of any disease which makes for want of efficiency in the people. Passing to another phase of the same question of the public health service, the maternity side in cases of outdoor relief, let us consider what happens there. Some poor woman sends for a midwife, and then it is felt necessary to call in a doctor. The doctor is not called in except as a last resort, because the husband realises that the guardians may come back to him and take steps to secure the price of medical attendance. What is the result? The poor woman in a time of extreme difficulty is sometimes left when she ought to be attended to and have the best care possible. What one of us here would not, in the case of some animal in a similar condition, prepare some little nest or corner where it might bring forth its young? But what about the case of the poor woman? When we are told that the birth-rate is diminishing, would it not be in the highest interest of the State, the highest Imperialism, that lives which come to us should be looked after? Lives which come to us and which ought to be saved to make the country's greatness are allowed to lapse, disease intervenes, blindness is sometimes known to follow, diseases come which might be prevented by proper attention at birth—all because there is this punitive element in the Poor Law administration, instead of a helpful, preventive influence being the greatest force behind it. Surely the way out is to give the assistance first, and let the consequences come after if you do not get back the money which has been expended.

Then as to the mixed workhouse, its character, and possibly its defects. In the mixed workhouse people of all grades of character, from those who are vicious to those who enter the workhouse because there is no other shelter, are herded together, and the vicious, unfortunately, exercise their influence on those who are there temporarily because they have been driven to enter by dire necessity. There ought to be some possibility of dissolving these diverse elements in character. There-are more actually certified imbeciles and lunatics, apart from the feeble-minded, in the workhouses of a mixed character today than there were a few years ago. We have men and women mixed, each uncomfortable in the presence of the other, with a life of monotony which I should think it is difficult for any of us here to realise. I think an order might be promulgated prohibiting the keeping in a general workhouse for more than one week, without the special permission of the President of the Local Government Board, of any person actually certified to be of unsound mind. I shall never forget a visit I paid to a workhouse and the shame I felt as the old women stood up, "in the interests of good discipline" forsooth, because a visitor had entered. I never felt so disposed to apologise to old persons as when I saw them standing in my presence. When I asked privately for the reason, I was told that it was in the interests of discipline, as it might be unfavourably commented upon if this kind of thing were not seen when an inspector from the Local Government Board visited the place. I am not endeavouring to attack the present President of the Local Government Board. I believe that he has done better than many who have occupied that position. I believe that he attempts to administer a system which perhaps in his heart he condemns as heartily as we do. But I believe the evils of the general mixed workhouses require attention and could be dealt with by administration apart altogether from legislative enactment.

The workhouse as it exists to-day stands, so far as the poor are concerned, for the cheerless solitude of the friendless. In old age companions there will be, but they fail to comfort. Food, monotonous in kind, served not in the most comfortable conditions, and warmth there will be. But in these aggressively spotless surroundings, in this shelter which is not a home, there is not that feeling of fellowship which should comfort the declining years of the aged. It is this monotony and the unstated but implied suggestion of blame in having to resort there, which makes the workhouse the goal only of the despairing and the indifferent. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Local Government Board will crown his strenuous career by terminating during the lifetime of the present Government the reproaches levelled, with so solid a foundation of truth, at the administration of the Poor Law. He could by the benevolent compulsion of a generous encouragement secure that in the administration of the Poor Law it should no longer be regarded as a crime to be poor, and that success should not be regarded as attained when a Board of Guardians has reduced the giving of relief to a minimum. The prevention of destitution should be the object to be attained, and this can best be achieved by dealing in an adequate manner with the children. I will conclude with some lines from Lowell, on "Freedom."

"Is true freedom but to break
Fetters for our own clear sake,
And with leathern hearts, forget,
That we owe mankind a debt?
No! True freedom is to share
All the chains our brothers wear,
And with heart and hand to be,
Earnest to make others free."

I beg to move.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

In rising to second this Amendment, I trust I shall get that considerate treatment which is, I am told, universally meted out to those who speak in this House for the first time. I wish I had the same confidence that I could do justice to this very important subject which has been so ably introduced by my hon. Friend. I desire to deal particularly with the able-bodied men and women who have to come within the clutches of the Poor Law. The Royal Commission of 1834 manifestly intended to deal with the able-bodied, and recommended that separate institutions should be provided for old age, sickness, and children. I suggest that had that course been pursued the experience gained in the years from about 1840 down to the present time would have been of great value, and would have prevented a tremendous amount of self-respect being lost, and a tremendous amount of suffering being endured. The recent Royal Commission on the Poor Law reports that the dominant characteristic of the workhouse is its promiscuous herding together of all ages, sexes, and classes. I think that those words, expressing so forcibly the opinion of the Royal Commission, are in themselves a justification for this House taking into consideration the state of the administration of the Poor Law. I cannot do better than quote a few words of one writer when commenting upon the Report of the Royal Commission. Speaking of the workhouse he said:—

"It has become what it was never intended to be. One form of treatment is meted out indifferently to sturdy able-bodied men, to those whom sorrow and privation have deprived of hope and courage, to tottering age and helpless infancy. Its portals are open alike to those who have been brought low by sheer misfortune, and to the vicious and the criminal.
As you read the Report of the Royal Commission you feel, as this writer feels, that there has been, and, if allowed to continue, will be, something very seriously wrong in the administration of the Poor Law. The Commission further declare, and I ask hon. Members to take particular notice of these words, that boards of guardians are simply destitution authorities, and only step in when the evil is complete and the pauper is so deprived of material resources that his life is in danger. That is perhaps the groundwork of my argument, that some machinery should be brought into being to prevent the able-bodied men from ever entering the workhouse at all. I know it will be a very difficult matter; I know that some will perforce get there; but what I feel is that those who have to go there should have a separate institution of their own.

From the period when a man becomes unemployed to the period of destitution there is not a single agency or a single helping hand that can be stretched out to keep that man's head above water, until he is compelled to seek what in the bottom of his heart is repellant to him. What we really want is during that period some system of organised agencies which would prevent that man pursuing the downward course to destitution and unemployability, and, what is worse, to the state of vicious-ness which we find in that class of people and which every Member of this House would wish to see removed from our society. The Report goes on to make the very remarkable statement that 100,000 people become destitute for the first time in each succeeding year. For the first time! Surely this country is great enough, big enough, rich enough, good-hearted enough, to take steps to prevent this recurring year after year. If the ever-increasing amount of machinery and the commercial speeding up means the throwing out of work of many able-bodied men, and the increase of the number of people coming to destitution year by year, what is going to be the future state of our society? I plead here that we should look upon this destitution with all its attendant horrors, as being like a cancer working into the social life of our country, and the sooner remedial measures are brought into being to arrest the progress of this state of things the better it will be not only for society in our time, but for future generations. I wish to point out to the House another very remarkable fact, and that is that the workhouse does not get rid of destitution. We want machinery to deal with these features. I am not here putting in a single plea either for the "work-shies" or for the incorrigible. I am one of those who believe that every man ought to take his fair share of work in this world, and that in those particular cases where men are likely to become a drag on others it should be seen to that they do sufficient work for, at any rate, their own independent living, those who refuse to work their average should be dealt with in a very summary fashion. But there is always a chance for a man when he can see the hope of better things ahead; when he realises that there are people and agencies that take an interest in his welfare.

What I have said equally applies to women—and more so. It is calculated that there are 60,000 able-bodied women receiving out-relief in England and Wales. The majority of these are not free to engage in industrial employment owing to having the care of children. I do not want to mislead the House in any way by quoting figures, for when I decided to second this Resolution I decided not to quote figures unless necessary. But we must of necessity quote some, if just to show the magnitude in some or other of the matters which we have in hand. The majority of these 60,000 are not free to engage in industrial work. That in itself gets to the point raised by my hon. Friend. What are these women to do? They have children to keep, and in many hundreds of cases sick husbands as well. They have to do this on the 1s. 6d. or 1s. 9d. per head as the case may be, that they can get doled out in the shape of out-relief. Where the women can get some little employment, it is that that I should never for one moment like to see one of my children come to, either laundry occupation or occupation with very little pay, and that extends over as many hours as the woman can spare from home. What, under these conditions, is becoming of the womanhood of the country? What is to become of the children who are dragged with insufficient food all these years while the mother is working for them? The Report says that there are 50,000 widows with 125,000 children. I claim, however, that these women should never be included in the return of able-bodied women at all. The woman who has the care and the upbringing of children should be able to see that her home is kept intact, and that the children are brought up under the influence of the mother, who should be assisted with adequate relief, so that the family may live together until the children come of age. It is a crime against civilisation to drive women to earn money in industry at the expense of their children. Women who have husbands in employment have their share of work, but it is doubly hard when the wage-earner is taken away from them, and they have to bear the brunt of the family up-bringing. Labour wards and test-houses have proved a failure to meet the case. This may be partly because men have got too far in their state of destitution. Be that as it may, I believe that we can prevent, or do a lot to prevent, a great deal of that recurring if the proper agencies are put to work. I hope that the efforts for the decasualisation of labour may alter the present situation somewhat. In these wards the good and bad are mixed together. The good and the willing workers receive the same treatment and the same rigid diet as the "work-shy." I do not wish to quote anything that would hurt the feelings of the President of the Local Government Board. I am not arguing from the standpoint that either the right hon. Gentleman or the Local Government Board is at fault in the matter. It has taken years and years, and Government after Government have passed the matter over, for us to get at the state in which we are in the present time. It would be folly for any man to blame any one Government or any one Department for the state of things which we find to-day. The same remark applies equally to those gentlemen who have sacrificed leisure in doing service on Boards of Guardians, the work of which, in this country, has never been recognised by the public as it ought to have been. The case of Belmont Workhouse where eighty men mutinied—I am quoting from the answers given in this House on the matter—proves the failure of the present system, and I only mention it to prove that failure. It is not an isolated case, but one of the most recent. There is another thing in connection with the administration of the poor-law. When a man has to seek shelter at a workhouse his wife and children are perforce dragged with him to the workhouse. If anything can be done at the same expense wasted today in this administration it ought to be done to keep these people in their own homes.

The Commission also are unanimous in recommending the abolition altogether of workhouses. Let me read another opinion on this matter:—
"The workhouse has even failed to reach the standard of uniformity common to the whole country. Some have marble halls and elaborate fittings; others do not provide the barest elements of decent life. In some the administration is so harsh and severe that poor persons endanger their lives, and the lives of others, by delaying to apply for admission; others are so lax as to undermine the independence and moral stamina of the inmates. Moreover, the workhouse sometimes encourages the very kind of life which it was intended to prevent. Men can enter it and leave it as they like. It is made possible for a whole class of 'ins' and 'outs' to be kept in existence."
If this be true there is no question of what is the duty of this House. If any one of these findings is true, our duty is perfectly clear: to recommend the abolition of the workhouse, and to recommend that separate institutions should be set up under separate management—firstly, for children; secondly, for the aged and infirm; thirdly, for the sick; fourthly, for the able-bodied; fifthly, for mothers; sixthly, for Vagrants; and seventhly, for the feebleminded. A large number of these latter are in some workhouses mixed up together. I had a similar experience to that of my hon. Friend in this matter. I happened to be in the women's portion of a workhouse, and in that ward there was a feeble-minded woman who had come into the workhouse to give birth to her third child in that institution. What are we doing that persons of weak intellect should be allowed continually to do this kind of thing? No respectable woman who applies to-day for relief desires to be herded with people of these various types.

Surely we have made out a case where we ought to get some sympathetic consideration from the Government! I am far from blaming any one person or any one Department. My only desire is that some real effort should be made to improve the condition of the people who are in the position I have indicated, having drifted down and down until they have swollen the ranks of those who, even if they want to work, are physically unfitted. Recently the County Councils Association expressed their willingness to take their fair share of the burden of administration. I was very pleased to see that. My chief desire is to treat our men and women who have become so unfortunate as to require assistance as if they had a human conscience. Not only do we desire to do that, but we desire to give them every encouragement to keep up their humanity. If we do that, we shall prevent thousands from losing their self-respect and their inclination for work, and prevent them from drifting into a vicious and worthless mass of humanity, There is no party move in connection with this Resolution. I am satisfied that is transparent to everybody in the House, and what I do plead for is that every Member of this House should be determined that he does his share to remove some of those black spots, and if we do that we shall have earned the blessings of future generations.

I very rarely rise to address this House, and I should not get up now to say a few words on this subject, but for the fact that I spent the best twenty-two years of my life in endeavouring to administer the Poor Law wisely, and that for eighteen years out of these twenty-two I was chairman of my Board. I wish to imitate the very moderate and sensible tone of the speakers on the other side, and to express my hearty agreement with the terms of this Resolution. When the Poor Law was placed on its present basis in 1834 we were suffering from very grave evils, much more so, I think, than now. The men who had originated the treatment of our poor under the Poor Law were very able men, and their motives were very high, and they did a great deal of good. But a great change has passed over our social life in these seventy years, and I think we are all agreed that the time has arrived, and that it arrived some years ago, when it was absolutely necessary to reconsider this whole question. I am always in favour, and always have been since the county councils were established—and that is the opinion of both the Minority and Majority of the Poor Law Commission—that the care of our poor should be handed over to those bodies. They are representative bodies, popularly elected, doing splendid work, and they are the bodies that ought to have the care of our poor. I do not say a word against the term "Guardians of the Poor"—there could be no nobler title—but I believe the men elected on county and borough councils would do the work as well and more efficiently than it is done at present if they worked through statutory committees, with a well-paid clerk, who should advise them on matters of law and precedent. I think a great deal of the power should be handed over to that statutory committee, whose decision should be communicated to the whole body. It may be said that one objection to that suggestion is that the county councils are already overburdened with work, and that a lot of additional responsibility was thrown upon them lately, and that it would not be wise to give them more to do. I think that objection would be fully met if the statutory committees had the power to co-opt men and women who gave proof of the desire to act and had the adaptability to do so, and to deal with the difficult questions affecting the Poor Law. I think in that way the work of the county and borough councils would not be very largely increased.

The question about the classification of the poor is a very urgent matter, and it is one that I think might be carried out without any great difficulty. I speak entirely of London, because my experience of the Poor Law in the country is very slight. The previous speaker wished to see workhouses abolished. We may abolish the term workhouse, and in the institutions which we should retain for use the word "workhouse" would cease to be the term applied. I should like to see houses for the aged, the infirm, and the blind. These houses should be homes where such old and afflicted people would be admitted and kindly treated. It would be no hardship to provide infirmaries in that way to which the people could be moved very easily owing to the very cheap transit in London by our huge metropolitan railways. In that way a great deal of the evils arising out of the herding of the poor together would be got rid of. Some of the workhouses would, of course, be retained and reserved for people who do not want to work. These people should be placed in these institutions, compelled to do some kind of work, and the discipline should be very severe.

When I was in America, many years ago, there was a plan there which seemed to me to be a wise one. I do not know whether it would suit our English notions. There was a process, I think it was in the State of New York, by which any man out of work, yet willing to work, could call upon the nearest magistrate and sign away his liberty for three months. The magistrate countersigned, and the man was committed to a house, where he was detained for three months at some suitable employment. There was this proviso, that the man was allowed to write letters and, if any former employer of his thought to make use of him by giving him employment, he could come and find out at once. That scheme, with some modification, might usefully apply to certain men in this country willing to work, but unable at the moment to find work. Then, with regard to the feeble-minded, the case cited by the hon. Member opposite was a most painful one of a feeble-minded woman who came to the workhouse to be delivered of her third child.

That does seem an evil which ought to be got rid of, but it is very difficult to-define what is a feeble-minded person. We have no right to restrict the liberty of people, no matter how silly they may be, except the feeble-minded are of such a character as that a doctor would say they ought not to be abroad. While the present state of things is allowed such dreadful occurrences as that mentioned by the hon. Member opposite will happen. I remember a very similar case, but it was that of a man, father of a family. He was feeble-minded, and for a great part of his life was shut up in an asylum. But he was harmless, and occasionally the superintendent let him out, and he went home. No less than seven children were born to that man, all more or less feeble-minded; but the guardians of the poor had no power to shut him up when the expert let him out—they had no right to interfere with him, nor with his wife. I mention this to show the extreme difficulty there is in treating the feeble-minded. I express the hope and confident belief that the present President of the Local Government Board, in whose ability, hard work, and sound statesmanship I for one strongly believe, and who has full knowledge of both the Minority and Majority Reports, and who has heard many speeches and has had many communications upon the subject, will deal with this question in a masterly way, and if he does so he will receive warm support from all parts of the House.

I have been connected with the administration of the Poor Law for twenty-five years, and I have been for many years chairman of a Poor Law board. I yield to no Member of this House, not even to the hon. Gentleman who introduced the Motion, in my desire to do what can be done to relieve the necessities and distress of the poor, but I am of opinion that it can be better done by extending the present power of the boards of guardians rather than by abolishing these bodies, and administering the Poor Law through the county councils. I have been a member of a county council for twenty-two years, and I am bound to say that we are already very greatly burdened with work, so much so indeed that we have to delegate largely our present duties to officials rather than to exercise that constant and close supervision which is desirable in the administration of county work. While I have the greatest respect for officials, I am of opinion that if the administration of the Poor Law is placed in the hands of the county councils it will devolve ultimately, and that quickly, into the administration of the Poor Law by officials rather than as at present by guardians, who have intimate knowledge of the cases they have to deal with, and know the localities and circumstances which enables them in my opinion to deal more fully, sympathetically and justly with the poor than the officials of the county councils could. Therefore I do hope that we shall devote our attention rather to improving the present system than doing away with Poor Law Guardians, and putting the administration of the Poor Law into the hands of the county councils.

A previous speaker referred to five or six different institutions. I am aware that this was recommended by the Poor Law Commission, but I would point out, with all due respect to the members of that Commission, there were very few of them who had any personal knowledge of the administration of the Poor Law, and it is only those who have full knowledge of the Poor Law that are in a position to consider the case of the poor with minute and practical knowledge and sympathy.

If we had these five or six different institutions it would mean the division of families and the breaking up of family life, and the poor have their feelings towards the members of their families just as well as other classes. I am sure, from experience, that there would be great objection on the part of the poor if the father was sent to one institution, the mother to a second, one child to a third, and another child to a fourth. There would be great feeling on the part of the poor against any such proposal. I am glad to know that the conditions in our workhouses have greatly improved, and we are grateful to the President of the Local Government Board for doing what he can to still further improve those institutions. I am a member of a rural board of guardians, and I do not hesitate to say that the members of that Board have devoted more time, care, and generally more anxiety to the performance of their duty than I have met with on any other public body which I have ever been a member of. Those people are prepared to carry on this work, and under these circumstances would it be wise to take that work out of the hands of those people who have a personal knowledge of it in order to put it into the hands of the county councils who have not got that personal knowledge, who would have to depend very largely upon the advice of their officials, and who would lack the knowledge which is necessary to deal sympathetically and considerately with the claims of the poor. We have under the Tavistock Board of Guardians a certain number of inmates entitled to old age pensions, but thirty out of thirty-four of them prefer to stay in the workhouse. I know that in the case of many rural boards of guardians a great improvement has been made in the administration, and many of the poor are better off than they would be living in cottages. Of course, I want to see better housing of the working classes, and I would like to see out-door relief given upon more liberal terms, but we should not destroy these institutions which have served a good purpose, the members of which are anxious to go on with the work and are looking to the President of the Local Government Board and this House for further powers of classification and better treatment of the poor. I am satisfied that as regards the rural districts the poor will be better off under the present system than under county council control and management.

The case of the feeble-minded is a very important aspect of this question. We have on different occasions appealed to the Lunacy Commissioners with a view to having a separate institution for the feeble-minded, but we have been met with the reply that we must establish conditions much similar and equally expensive to those required in dealing with lunatics. We think we should have an institution which would be a considerable improvement for the feeble-minded, in which conditions would prevail to meet their case without requiring a very expensive system like that of a lunatic asylum. We have also a very difficult question in regard to the subject of vagrancy, and I hope something will be done to meet that case. I know the President of the Local Government Board is not very favourable to Labour colonies, but this question has to be grappled with. In the Tavistock Union we built wards with large separate cells for each man to do his own stone-breaking in, in order to keep them separate and give them more healthy conditions. I feel that while we must deal generously with the real bonâ fide working-man, at the same time we have to deal differently with those who may be said to be looking for work and hoping at the same time that they will not find it. I think those men ought to be made to work. Some of these men have through adversity got down and cannot get up. Those men ought to be provided with a course of healthy food and reasonable labour in order to regain health and strength and power to earn their living. There are, I repeat, others who have no desire whatever to work, and they ought to be made to work. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will try to bring before Parliament some scheme to deal with the vagrancy question, which is a very serious matter in the country districts. I know this evil is encouraged by gifts of food and sometimes money, partly through sympathy. Sometimes we see a poor fellow on a wet day badly clothed, and he may ask us for money, and, although it is wrong theoretically, we can hardly do anything else than assist him, for otherwise he would be practically in a stale of starvation. We want some scheme devised whereby these men can get work and have remuneration, and then the public will cease supporting them by giving sometimes out of charity and often, in the case of women in cottages by the roadside, out of fear of what would happen if they did not give them something to pass on. I hope the President of the Local Government Board will endeavour to deal with this question.

While I yield to no Member of this House in my anxiety to still further develop the care taken of the inmates in our workhouses, I feel sure that if we have extended powers we can do all that is desired even by hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway at very much less expense than will be the case if workhouses are abolished and the administration of the Poor Law is put into the hands of county councils. I think hon. Members will agree with me that county councils already have enormous duties to perform. They carry on a very laborious work, and some of the best men in the counties are engaged in it, and I am afraid they will hesitate about continuing members of those bodies if we put the administration of the Poor Law into their hands in addition to their already very important duties. If we do that I am afraid we shall drive some of the best men out of the work altogether. From every point of view—first because I believe by giving the present boards of guardians extended powers we can improve the condition of the poor; and secondly, by a more liberal administration of outdoor relief, after careful enquiry, giving the deserving cases help rather than breaking up their homes, I believe we can improve still further the application of the Poor Law in the interests of the poor, and do it on much more economical terms than will be the case if we do away with workhouses and concentrate the administration of the Poor Law in the county councils. I hope the President of the Local Government Board will continue to extends to boards of guardians every facility for increased classification and for the better treatment of the people under their charge. Then I am satisfied it will be better for the poor to continue under those conditions than it will be for the work to be taken out of the hands of the men and women who are now performing those duties. Let me here say what valuable work women have rendered on boards of guardians, more especially in regard to their sympathy with fallen women and with the children. Here we all come to recognise that it is desirable we should do all we can to take the children away from the workhouse atmosphere and surroundings. We can do that well under our present system, if we have facilities for that purpose. While I am in deep sympathy with the effort of the hon. Member who has moved this Resolution to better the conditions of the poor, I must say that I believe it will be calamitous to the poor, and lead to a very heavy financial burden on the ratepayers, if workhouses are abolished and the work concentrated in the county councils of the counties. In some of the larger urban unions perhaps a different treatment may be necessary, but even there, if those unions have extended powers, I think they will be able to deal with this difficulty better than the county councils.

Like the hon. Member who has just sat down, I have been a member of a board of guardians. I have also had the honour of serving on the Poor Law Commission. I need not bother the House with my own personal experience as a guardian as evidence in support of this Resolution. My own experience is supported by the knowledge gained from witnesses and from observations made on this subject in every part of the country. What are the facts in regard to the Poor Law administration which led the Commission unanimously to report in condemnation of the present administration. Widely as I differ from the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Local Government Board—and probably on another occasion I take the opportunity, from my point of view, of severely criticising his administration—yet at the same time I may say that the Commission took no stock at all of the fact that he was at the head of that administration, and we came to our conclusion because we believed that the present Poor Law methods were based on an altogether wrong assumption, that assumption being that you must leave the poor until they reach the point of destitution. The Commission unanimously came to the conclusion that that is an altogether wrong point to start from, that the real thing to do is to prevent people from becoming destitute, and that the money we are now spending annually on the poor in the United Kingdom, amounting to between £16,000,000 and £18,000,000, is very largely wasted because we wait for the point of destitution before we commence applying our remedy.

5.0 P.M.

On that Commission there were those who represented advance views as a guardian like myself. There was also the representative of one of the model boards of guardians in the Kingdom, Mr. F. H. Bentham, the Chairman of the Bradford Board of Guardians; Miss Octavia Hill, the Rev. H. Russell Wakefield, Mr. Phelps and others, who have been Poor Law Guardians. I remember there were four of the principal officers of the English, Irish and Scotch Local Government Boards, and therefore when a body like that reports to this House and the country that the Poor Law has broken down, that it has been administered on wrong lines, and we ought to administer it from an altogether different standpoint to that which we have been adopting for the last sixty or seventy years, I say that those of us who are guardians and who form the Local Government Board ought not to think of our dignity in the matter, but we ought to consider it from the point of view of actual facts. Let us for a moment consider it from the point of view of sickness. My hon. Friend laid a good deal of stress upon this point. I suppose everyone here will agree that when persons are sick they should get assistance or relief at the earliest possible moment. The other day, as the right hon. Gentleman will remember, there was an inquest in Shoreditch where an unhappy child died, and at the inquest it was stated the guardians refused to give assistance in the home where the child lived because of the badness of the parents. The Commission unanimously say that is a wrong principle altogether. It may be true the parents were to blame, but society, through the board of guardians, ought not to visit the sins of the parents on the child in that way. At present, however, that is all the boards of guardians can do. It is not their business to relieve under any other condition than that of destitution. There are tens of thousands of people throughout England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland in this condition, and the medical investigators appointed by the Commission reported one after the other that the huge sums of money spent on putting up quite palatial infirmaries are very largely wasted, because you deter people from coming until it is too late for the things you put at their disposal to be of any real benefit to them. The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. I would respectfully ask him to go into the Library when he has some leisure and take down the report of Dr. McVail and Dr. Parsons, who both reported that the real blot on the medical service of the Poor Law was not that it was not an able service, and not that the men and women who carry it out were not devoted men and women, but that the principle on which you apply medical Poor Law relief was such that people waited to come to you until the very last point had been reached. Reference has also been made to the suffering inflicted on women at times of child-birth, and something has been said about the cost in this matter. I beg to point out the investigators reported that in very many instances the child was born a cripple, and was a burden, therefore, upon society for life. It is not economy to say to a mother, "We will not give you the assistance you need unless you come to us as a pauper and enter our building."

Let me tell the House what I have witnessed going about the country. I went into homes in the huge industrial district which has grown up in South Wales during the last half-century, where they are receiving doles of Poor Law relief. A man, for instance, suffering from phthisis, will be getting, with his family, 10s. per week. I saw families of five, six, and seven, of all ages, ranging from two upwards, living in one solitary room without any ventilation. When I appealed to the authorities as to why these cases were dealt with in that manner, the medical officer, who took me round, said: "What are we to do? These people will not move out of these houses. There are no other houses for them to go to, and we have no institutions into which we can put them." I say you might as well have put the 10s. into the sea for all the good you were doing, because the man, being there, was simply infecting his own family with the disease from which he was suffering. Then I saw children living in what were called institutions. I am not going to say any harsh words about guardians, but when we opened the door of the institution I have in my mind the four of us who were visiting wanted to run away. The stench of the day room was simply intolerable, and yet babies were being brought up under that kind of condition. We asked the reason, and it was because the Poor Law authorities thought they ought not to spend money on building a bigger institution. I could give case after case of a similar character. Since the passing of the Act of 1834 the whole of the great public health service of this country has grown up. If I catch small-pox or scarlet fever you take very good care to deal with me at the earliest possible moment. The majority of the Commission might not agree as to the authority to be set up, but we all agreed that the person who is sick, whatever kind of sickness it is, ought to be taken hold of and dealt with without any regard to means.

I particularly said that boards of guardians must have extended powers in order to deal with this question, and then they would be better able to deal with it—better than county councils.

I will come to that later, if you do not mind. I want to emphasise my point by telling the House something that happened in Hamburg. We are being continually referred to Germany. I spent, with the rest of my colleagues, from four to five weeks trying to investigate as far as we could in the time, the conditions prevailing in Germany. We interviewed the doctors in Hamburg, and a friend of mine said to one of them: "Are you not afraid of breaking down the independent spirit of people by giving them free medical relief in this fashion? The old German doctor gave us the correct answer. "Disease and sickness is something that is ugly and ought to be got rid of wherever you find it. Instead of our wanting to keep people away, we invite people to come to us and get rid of disease and sickness as soon as we can." The hon. Member opposite says the county councils and the town councils have not time to do this work. I would point out to him that every town council and every county authority has to provide certain hospitals and certain treatment for certain kinds of diseases, and the Public Health Committee only needs to have added this service, which is similar to the service it is now performing, and it can carry out the work in a more efficient manner than is being done now. It will carry it out more efficiently, because it will carry it out from a different point of view. The present public health authorities administer from the point of view of prevention all the time. Socialist as I am, I do not want the people to have the liberty to live in dirt and disease, and I want the public health authority to have absolute power to go into homes and take out people who are suffering in this kind of way. I would take people who will not go, because they are a danger, not only to themselves, but to the whole community; and the liberty of the individual must be subordinated to the need of the whole of the men and women who make up society. I want to urge that it would not overload the public health authorities in the manner suggested by adding this little burden. I have been a member of a public health authority and a Poor Law guardian, and I am speaking from actual experience.

The next thing I want to say is with reference to children. A strong case has been made out by my hon. Friends with regard to children. Is the House aware it has been stated, not by persons like myself—I may not be believed, because it may be thought I exaggerate—but by people who were appointed and paid to investigate that there are 15,000 to 20,000 children in England and Wales who are getting outdoor relief and who are living under vicious immoral conditions. That of itself is quite enough to condemn the administration of the Poor Law. I know the hon. Member opposite has as good and as kind a heart as myself or any other man, and he will not deny that boards of guardians expect a mother to bring up at least one or two children without assistance.

I would respectfully, suggest that the hon. Member should learn the law. I am not a lawyer—the Lord forbid—but I would beg to point out that is not the case. Boards of guardians have absolute discretion as to whom they should relieve and as to how they should relieve, always supposing they can prove the person is destitute. You need not make a mother keep one child. You need not make the mother even keep herself. The educational authority now deals with medical inspection and with the feeding of children. It is a monstrous proposition that an able-bodied man may have his children fed at the public expense and have them medically treated at the public expense and not be a pauper, whilst a widow, because she needs a little more social service through her children, is to be branded as a pauper. You have all the machinery now for dealing with these children of widows, and I want to emphasise the fact that we must recognise it is not all the bad women who lose their husbands. You cannot say it is a woman's own fault that she becomes a widow and becomes dependent upon the community. I would press this very strongly. You do not need two authorities in order to deal with a tiny fraction of children who need dealing with under the Poor Law. You have the big educational authorities dealing with meals, and you can easily turn on to them the care of this very tiny fraction of 130,000 or 140,000 children scattered throughout the country.

I want to say a word on the question of the workhouses. It is often said a workhouse is a very comfortable kind of institution. I have visited nearly every one of the big workhouses in the country, and of all the horrible places I think the workhouse is the most horrible. It is so infernally clean. There is no decent dirt about it at all. You get up by a bell, you get your breakfast by a bell, you get your dinner by a bell, you get your supper by a bell, and I was going to say you go to the other place by a bell. It is a bell all the time. Your life is ruled by routine. Going round visiting these expensive palaces—I do not know why, but workhouses are more expensive to build than many a rich man's house—it has often been said to me: "What have you to say against this place? Is it not clean and comfortable?" and the rest of it. I say to anyone here that when workhouses are homes of rest for worn-out Members of Parliament and Cabinet Ministers, then I shall consider they are decent places for a working man to go and end his days. Not one of you here would die in the workhouse if you had your choice—not even in the best and most up-to-date building, and that in itself is quite enough condemnation for me. But when you look at the large number in our workhouses in the day and feeding rooms, you will find there herded together the harmless lunatic, the imbecile, the epileptic, the aged person, and sometimes the able-bodied man, a great mixture of people, each of them a nuisance to the other. I ask you whether you think we cannot do something better with the money we spend? Just think what it costs to keep them there. It is often said that we in England have progressed as far as we can. But Scotland, which is not very strongly represented here just now, even Scotland has done better than we have with regard to the aged and the children. In that country children are hardly ever taken into institutions, and, with regard to the aged, the Scottish have developed in a very fine way the principle of keeping these people in small homes rather than in huge palaces. Here in our own country the extraordinary position is this. This House has settled that when you are seventy you shall have an honourable old age pension. But if you are a few days under seventy, you are not an honourable person; you must have pauper relief.

I want to suggest to the House it is time that that thing was ended, and that we insist that boards of guardians should approach the question of the aged poor from exactly the same point of view as they approach it when these people reach the age of seventy, and say, frankly and freely, that they are a charge on the community and that any invalided person, pending the passing of the scheme we are going to have for aged and invalided persons, ought not to be maintained in any institution, but, wherever possible, should be maintained in their own homes. I will not trouble the House about the able-bodied. Some other time we may have an opportunity of discussing that, but I would like to say this. The Vagrancy Committee have reported that vagrants cannot be dealt with by the local authorities. I ask hon. Members to keep that in mind. The Vagrancy Committee has said that they ought to be dealt with in a national manner all over the country, and taken away from the Poor Law authorities. I go a step further and say that your dealing with the able-bodied is too good for the bad and too bad for any decent man at all. Your workhouse administration—however brutal it may have been, has never choked off the men you wanted to choke off. When you remember that one workhouse master put an inmate to count the bricks in his cell as a task, and when you remember that your latest experiment has broken down in London, surely it is time we found a more excellent way of dealing with these matters. The Member for East Birmingham (Mr. Steel-Maitland) rather twitted us on these benches with wanting apparently to deal only with ambulance methods. He said we took very little stock of the real problem underlying this great question. I want the House to understand that I at least only want ambulance and hospital methods while there are victims of our industrial system.

I would join with hon. Members in any earnest attempt they may care to make to get rid of casual intermittent labour in the only ordered way it can be got rid of. But in the meantime I want to appeal to this House. We are spending days and weeks on this Parliament Bill for good or for evil, but we have not come up against this problem of poverty all the time. My colleagues and most of you also do, at election times, come up against it. But what are we doing here in regard to it. Here is a report representing three and a half years' hard and ungrudging work on the part of men and women, aided and backed up by some of the most skilful investigators in the country. What has this British Parliament done in regard to it? Two years have elapsed since the issue of the report, yet nothing has been done. This shows the interest of hon. Members in this great social problem. I venture to say, with the greatest possible deference, that I have heard discussed here no question of more paramount importance than this one which goes to the root of society. If we are going always to say that at the root of society there is to be this mass of poverty and destitution, then I reply you can never be really moral. The state of the country can never be really sound while that condition remains, and I should like to appeal to the House, not to deal with this matter from any party point of view, but to let us act together and say to the Leaders on both sides that we will not tolerate postponing this question any longer, but that we intend to join in a really effective demand on the Government to give us time to commence work on this tremendous problem of poverty and misery. For my part I do not want to be in this House merely to talk about constitutional changes. I do not want to be here merely to discuss our Empire beyond the seas. The Empire I want to consider, and which I invite hon. Members here to consider, is the Empire of the poor, poverty-stricken people who need not be poverty-stricken, but who are driven down by the dead weight of your economic and commercial conditions. I want to see men and women lifted out of that. They can be lifted out of it. Let us join in discussing and settling this problem once and for all.

I am sure the House has listened with great interest to the speech we have just heard. I quite agree that it is no use saying the Constitution of the country is sound so long as your Empire rests on such a basis of poverty and misery. If you are going to start dealing with this question you must start at the bottom. It is for that reason we all regret that two years have passed since the Commission reported, and not a single step has been taken to move this question on. It is a very important question. How much longer are we going to wait? If we are content to wait two years we may as well wait ten years. Time goes by, but all this time the children are growing up in insanitary homes under bad conditions. These are the citizens on whom we have to depend for the future. You are losing a whole generation. We cannot afford to do that. I rose with the intention of dealing with one part only of this large and complicated subject. I wish to deal with the question of the children. I should like to see the children entirely removed from the scope of the Poor Law. I should like to see them handed over to the educational authorities. I believe it is not within the scope of order to discuss that now, as it is a legislative and not an administrative matter. I will therefore pass on to point out to the right hon. Gentleman certain matters in which by the action of his Department he may improve the present state of things.

There are 250,000 children now under the Poor Law, and that does not represent the total number. I should say that there are something like half a million altogether who come under it; it is therefore a large question. It would not, however, be a very great change to hand them over to the educational authority, because that authority is already dealing with millions of children. Apart from that, I want to deal with two or three small points of administration. The first is the out-relief given to children at the present time. That is so small as to be perfectly useless. We know that the children who are fed by the Poor Law are, as a rule, below the average of the general community in both brain and body. That is entirely a question of feeding, and in these matters, unless you spend money generously, it would be far better to keep it in your pockets.

The next question has reference to Poor Law schools. There the great vice is that the children come in and go out very frequently for the reason that their parents are not on the Poor Law; they are there only for a short time. I suggest to the President of the Local Government Board that he could standardise and systematise that in some "way. There again you are very largely wasting your money, because it is no good keeping the children for three weeks or a month. You want to get control of them, and keep them under proper authority. Thirdly, I come to our old friend, the question of mixed workhouses. It is somewhat extraordinary that we, in this year, should still be attacking these workhouses. I believe there are now 20,000 children living in workhouses, children of school age, and, since the Commission reported, not one single child so far as I know, has been taken out. More than that, the number is not decreasing. Surely it is not necessary to labour that point. The previous speaker pointed out the evil of the workhouse, and everybody, who knows anything about the subject, knows that while these places are bad for the grown-ups, they are still worse for the children. Yet great as is the evil, often as it has been attacked, nothing still has been done. The next point I wish to bring to the attention of the Committee is the chaos which exists at present in regard to children who are subject to three different Departments of the Government. First of all there is the education authority, then the Poor Law authority, and then the police authority. The result is that there is almost indescribable chaos and that a very large amount of overlapping exists. In London no fewer than three different bodies are engaged in feeding children of school age, and in some cases the same family are being fed by two, and I am told in some cases the same child is being fed by two authorities. There again I do appeal to the President to take some action. Surely he can do something and there are resources at the command of his office which will enable him to devise some scheme for preventing this overlapping, which all means waste of money, because all this work can be done inside the scope of the present Poor Law. I hope we shall hear something about this in the speech which we shall soon listen to, I believe I should not be in order in discussing the Report of the Departmental Committee which was appointed by the right hon. Gentleman, but I should like to ask whether we are to have an opportunity of discussing it. A good many of us have read that report with shame.

I will answer that question at once. The Prime Minister promised an opportunity on the Estimates.

I apologise, and will leave-the subject, except to say that perhaps we shall not get that opportunity.

I have not been very long in the House, but I have sometimes taken part in that remarkable performance which takes place every year whereby we vote millions in the course of an afternoon, and nobody gets a chance of discussing anything at all. I hope, however, that we shall have some chance of discussing that report.

Before I sit down I wish to say a word or two in regard to the Report of the Commission, or the two Reports of the Commission They both agree that the great channels of pauperism are unemployment, sickness, and neglected childhood. Surely we can do something to close that last avenue. It is by far the most important, and do not let us be put off with the ordinary official reply that this has been done here and that has been done there when we know that nothing has been done, and we are where we were two years ago. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly sincere in his desire to see a better state of things, but may I ask him to impress that desire on his officials, and to see that we get something done. The question has been threshed out for a great many years, and especially in this year, and since the report of the County Councils Association we do see the means of agreement between the conflicting schools of thought on this subject. I ask the President of the Local Government Board to take advantage of that circumstance, and I can assure him that all parties in the House will give him their unqualified support.

The speeches to which we have listened faithfully reflect the dissatisfaction which undoubtedly does exist to a very large extent in the country as to the present state of the Poor Law, and it is a dissatisfaction to which I do not think the Government can very long turn a deaf ear. I do not know what steps the Government propose to take—whether they propose to abolish the guardians or merely redistribute them—but I hope that they will at all events break up the Poor Law so far as to place the feeble-minded and the unemployable under the charge of some central national authority because these unfortunate people present a problem which can only be solved by continuity and uniformity of treatment. There can be no improvement in their condition so long as they are in the charge of isolated authorities who work on their own individualistic lines and principles, and are often antagonistic. I fear we shall have to wait for any far-reaching reform a considerable time, because the Government is no doubt much too busy for the next Session or two to take up anything so uninteresting as the Poor Law. It is a subject which cannot possibly add to their popularity, and which might possibly detract from it, but there is no reason why, because we are not able to have a far-reaching or drastic reform, we should mark time in the matter of Poor Law reform. I cannot help thinking that what we might do is to go ahead on lines which are well known amongst those who desire reform, and I believe that the reform which will bear the quickest and the best fruit will be that the President of the Local Government Board should make a more vigorous use of the power which he has already in his hands.

I know this is not exactly the proper time to advocate the extension of the bureaucratic system, but if we are to have a bureaucratic system, to my mind, it may as well be an effective one, and under the present state of the Poor Law the Local Government Board has all the unpopularity of a bureaucracy without any of its effective operation. I should like to know how it is that in spite of the circulars which the right hon. Gentleman issued a year ago, not only are there still 20,000 children within the precincts of the workhouse, but I am informed that there are actually boards of guardians who are contemplating the extension of accommodation within the precincts of the workhouse. The circulars which the right hon. Gentleman issues from time to time give, no doubt, very excellent advice, which is followed, no doubt, by some of the more progressive and up-to-date boards of guardians; but, as far as the backwoodsmen of local government are concerned, they offer an absolutely deaf ear to the advice given, and I should like to see the President of the Local Government Board take to himself such powers as the President of the Board of Education has to deal with a matter of this kind. The President of the Education Office can withdraw a grant when he is dealing with the backward education authority, and the President of the Local Government Board who pays the salaries of some of the officials might by that means make some of the backward boards of guardians toe the line more effectually than they do at present. In regard to the feeble-minded, the epileptics, and insane, there are few sadder sights in the world than to see them sitting round the precincts of the workhouses, and I think that the fact that they should be in this present day herded together in this manner is a disgrace to our civilisation. What is particularly pitiable is the position of the same epileptic who in the intervals of his disease is quite sane. These people ought to be treated in the open air and given regular employment, but, as Dr. MacVeagh pointed out in his Report, they are obliged to loaf about in idleness, and they become a burden to themselves and to the community.

The reason why this problem has not been tackled before is that petty jealousies have prevented boards of guardians from combining to erect suitable institutions for these people. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has power to make boards of guardians combine, but if he has I think he ought to use it, and if not he ought to take the power to himself, because these unfortunate people cannot be properly treated as long as the present Poor Law exists. There is also the question of health. It is, of course, as absurd to say that you can prevent disease as that you can prevent destitution, but I cordially agree with what fell from the hon. Gentleman opposite when he said that there was an enormous amount of disease and an enormous amount of money which might be saved if the services in connection with the health of the people could be handed over to some proper State authority. I am perfectly certain unless that is done you cannot have any great improvement in the condition of the health of the poor, so far as Poor Law relief is concerned, and so long as Poor Relief is administered on principles which are exactly the opposite of those on which every properly constituted health authority should be based. It is important that disease should be treated and diagnosed as early as possible; but the deterrent effect of the Poor Law makes that impossible. Nobody comes to the Poor Law until he is obliged, and there is in consequence an enormous increase of disease and an enormous aggravation of disease also. The relieving officer and the district officer never go to see a case until they are sent for, while, on the other hand, the health authority—the health visitors and sanitary inspectors—are from the nature of their duties constantly in touch with the poor. There is another principle which is, of course, disregarded—namely, that the sick should be treated in healthy surroundings; but the district officers have no power, as-everybody knows, to treat under healthy surroundings those at present diseased. Another principle which is, of course, disregarded under the present system, is that all disease should be treated from the standpoint of prevention; but that cannot possibly be done by an authority whose only duty is to administer for the relief of distress. Dr. MacVeagh summed up the whole question in an admirable manner. He says:—
"Lazy drunken loafers are taken into the workhouse to be cleaned, fed and tended during their recovery from a debauch, or prostitutes come in to be treated for the foulest diseases and go out again to resume their old career. Persons suffering from the most serious transmissible maladies are afforded relief without prevention of opportunities to inoculate the healthy or contaminate the next generation. Weak-minded girls or dissolute women enter the workhouse to be delivered of illegitimate children, and go away again to return time after time in the same condition. Phthisis cases are maintained in crowded unventilated places, where there is unconstrained facility to convey their disease to their off spring"
These questions go much further down in the minds of the people than all these questions that we are squabbling about at the present moment. I hope the time will not be long delayed when the Government will take up these questions in earnest, and when they do I shall give them my most hearty support.

Though I am sure, like many other Members on both sides of the House, one agrees with a great deal of what previous speakers have said, we must in fairness recognise that the statement that nothing has been done is hardly correct. When we consider these questions thoroughly we must of necessity consider the genesis of pauperism. I am sure we shall spend our time to very little advantage if we content ourselves with endeavouring to deal with the evil effects of pauperism. It is impossible to deny that the treatment of school children is-something which is directed to one of the chief causes of pauperism. The same applies, of course, to the schemes of insurance and pensions which have been, or are shortly to be, before Parliament, so that one must be quite fair, even to a Department of the Government which we all criticise pretty freely at times. To say that nothing has been done is really decidedly inaccurate. In regard to the administration of the Poor Law with reference to children, I hope the Government will proceed to deal with that class of children who are, and will be, no doubt, throughout the whole of their lives, a burden upon the Poor Law. I have here the record of one particular family, which was gone into most thoroughly, and it turns out that the youngest generation of the family is represented by three children, two of whom were illegitimate, one has been in prison various times, and the third is in a workhouse school. The mother of the children was illegitimate and a pauper, the maternal grandmother was illegitimate and a pauper, and the maternal grandfather was a pauper. That is to say the Commission established that a very large section of pauperism is due to the fact that we have a number of people free to multiply their species who are mentally deficient from their infancy, and it is very necessary, I think, that steps should be taken to deal with the feeble-minded as early as possible.

Nevertheless, the causes of this mass of pauperism, which is thoroughly discreditable to the community, go very much further. The relative stationariness of pauperism during the last few years, as recorded in this Report by the Local Government Board on "Public Health and Social Condition in 1909," notwithstanding the great increase of national wealth, is very remarkable. When we come to look at the changes of occupation of the people we find something which explains this phenomenon to a very great extent. We find, for instance, that the number of agricultural labourers has declined from 3,400,000 fifty years ago to 2,000,000 now This is inevitably reflected when we go to any labour exchange. I was myself in a labour exchange in the east of London the other day, and the manager said, what I suppose they say in every exchange, that we have not much difficulty in placing men who are skilled at all, but we have endless application from porters, and caretakers, and packers, and jobs of that kind. When we come to look at the applications to the distress committees we find at once that a number much greater than any other class of trade is that of general or casual labourer. We have had the depopulation of the country districts on the one hand, and a great increase of the casual labourers in the urban areas on the other. One is the inevitable reflex of the other. These people come up mainly unskilled and no reform of the Poor Law in itself will be enough to deal with this phenomenon, and it will be unfair for us to blame a Government Department which administers the Poor Law which deals with the result of poverty. Here is one of the prime causes of it, and until we as a House deal with this migration from the country to the towns so long must we inevitably have a great burden on the Poor Law in our cities. If we take an average family in a poor district and consider in the light of one case the genesis of pauperism, we soon see certain directions at all events in which the law requires amendment urgently. Take for instance many houses such as exist in London where three or four or even more families live in the same house. In many there is one cold water tap in the back yard. It is an absolute fact, which nothing can get over that it is difficult for the inhabitants in that house to be properly clean. A considerable number of children are reared in these houses and a goodly proportion of them will be defective in one way or another. In the majority of cases the fathers of families in these houses have relatively small wages and are casually employed. They have no place to go to for amusement except the music hall or the public house, and, though I fully recognise all the evil which arises from drink, as long as people have to live under conditions of this kind they must, human nature being what it is, seek relaxation and amusement so that when we come to deal with the root of the problem we are also necessarily engaged in tackling the housing problem. In this respect it would not be fair to say that nothing has been done, because we all recognise that a very great deal has been done, and powers have been obtained to do very much more.

To come back to the household I am considering the children, at the age of eleven or twelve on the average, are some inches shorter and some pounds lighter than they ought to be. In one-room tenements they will be so much more, and in two-room tenements so much less. All we have to do to ascertain the extent of a fact of that kind is to turn to this or any other Blue Book of the kind and find what a mass of people inhabit two-room tenements. There are over 2,000,000 of them. It is obvious that here we have of necessity growing up in our midst armies of children who are physically below par, who will not be able to take proper advantage of the education provided for them, and who will of necessity swell the ranks of the casual labourers. In a report which was issued a short time ago by the Board of Education, we see that we have something like 6,000,000 children under our educational authorities, and we find—the records being confined to those entering school and to those about to leave school, and not applying to the intermediate grades of children—that about 600,000 children attending our elementary schools are subject to serious defects of vision, and we have something like 300,000 children with defective hearing. Follow any child which is subject to either one or the other of these defects. It is less alert than another child and less useful to an employer, and it means of necessity that so long as this state of things continues we must have incompetent workpeople in the community. Here again it is not fair to say that nothing has been done, because apart from the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has greatly reduced the number of children of school age in workhouses, the efforts which are now being made for the treatment of school children do of necssity strike at the root of a very great mass of the poverty which is a burden to us at the present time.

A particular matter which I should like to refer to is consumption. An hon. Member opposite said we could not do much in the way of preventing disease, or something of that kind. I must absolutely and completely disagree with him in that. There is no condition which is a burden on our people which we could more easily prevent than consumption. At present our Poor Laws spend something like £1,500,000 in dealing with this disease, and the amount of national loss which is occasioned in the families throughout the length and breadth of the land must be incalculable. It is impossible to assess exactly the amount, but it must be a colossal sum. Here it is necessary to see how the Poor Law at present deals with these cases. I am speaking now of the father of a family—a man who gets consumption, we will say. He does not leave off work if he can avoid it. He gets worse and worse, infecting his whole house in the meantime, and finally he goes to his club doctor, and at that time you can do nothing for him So far as the majority of these people are concerned you might as well sign their death certificate in advance. Before this man can be relieved by the Poor Law he must have got to that stage, and the great expenditure of the Poor Law in dealing with this disease is inevitably made, under our present system, in relieving this kind of thing. It is obvious that we are dealing with this particular man in the wrong place. He should be treated as early as possible; and in connection with this matter, one recognises that the scheme shortly to be produced will afford a magnificent opportunity for eradicating this disease in this country. And thus more will be done in respect of sickness to do away with poverty than by any other measure which has hitherto been before this Parliament. I refer, of course, to insurance against sickness.

6.0 P.M.

But this report shows quite well that in the case of children—and there are sixty thousand children with this disease in our schools—they can fairly easily be cured, especially if you take them early. To take a man from his work is of course a difficult matter. It means that the income of the family is depreciated weekly. In the case of a child that does not apply at all. There is no obstacle to treating a child as soon as you find out that it has this particular complaint. If we add all these various physical disorders together and see the mass of weakness to which they inevitably give rise it is perfectly evident that no mere tinkering with the administration of the Poor Law will be sufficient and that we must strike radically and thoroughly at the root of the evil. I do not listen with any measure of satisfaction to some of the denunciations of the Poor Law which are commonly indulged in. We recognise its very serious defects, but I think if we spend our energies in denouncing the existing Poor Law we shall not achieve very much. There are certainly directions which do not immediately concern the Poor Law at all, which it is very necessary that this House should take into consideration at the earliest possible moment. Take the case of the man to whom I have alluded—the father of a family who has contracted consumption or any other disease. He is taken into the workhouse, and there the cost of his maintenance is enormous, and if we add to that the enormous administration expenses, it is obvious from the point of view of economy that we are wasting our money in regard to this thing. It would be very much more economical to ascertain what was the matter with the man, and as soon as possible to put him under such conditions as he could recover, instead of maintaining him in the last days of his existence. In this respect the Local Government Board have recently taken a step which is admirable. They have decided that institutions to which men go suffering from phthisis shall notify the local authorities. At the same time the Board have provided that this shall not militate against a man in regard to his employment.

Here is a side of the question which is inevitably associated with any reform of the Poor Law. All these insurance schemes work two ways. It is often alleged that men from forty-five years of age or a little later are out of work because of the Compensation Acts, and I believe that in many cases the older men have great difficulty in getting employment in consequence of the operation of those Acts which every one intended to be beneficent. This applies also, I think, to any measures taken to ensure early notification of conditions of this kind. It must be carefully borne in mind that such notification should not militate against a man in his everyday employment. But there can be no gainsaying the fact, whatever criticisms we make of the administration of the Poor Law as it stands to-day, that no mere alteration in the methods of administration will suffice. We must of necessity take other methods if we are to strike at the roots of pauperism. We have millions of people growing up in our country at the present time, who from their cradle onwards are striving against their own frail bodies, and it is not open to them to have any fair hope of enjoying in a reasonable measure those pleasures of labour, health, and leisure, which should belong as a right to all those who are worthy to belong to the children of men.

I want to call attention to the question of the administration of the Poor Law in connection with the medical profession. There are a great many places in the country districts of England where the salary which is paid to the Poor Law Medical Officer is totally inadequate for the amount of work which has to be done. I think that the most important thing, perhaps, that the Poor Law has to deal with at all is the question of medical relief. I can relate my own experience which has extended over a considerable number of years in this country. I was once parish medical officer of a district in Yorkshire and during the time I was there I noted the details of the work I did and the amount I was paid. I found that I was getting 1d. per bottle for medicine and 4d. per visit in a radius of four miles. I sold my practice. I admit that the right hon. Gentleman opposite has made improvements in many ways in connection with the Poor Law, but to my mind he has done absolutely nothing to improve the question of medical relief. Having no personal interest in the matter after I sold my practice, I wrote to the Local Government Board stating that I considered it a wrong and wicked thing that appointments should be sanctioned by the Board where they knew that a man was only going to get that amount of money for looking after the poor people under his charge. I looked after them while I was there, and I am absolutely certain that the gentleman who bought my practice is looking after them still. But to do that he is spending money out of his own pocket which the ratepayers should pay. The community should see that a private individual is not put to the expense of doing what is local government work. You may come across a medical man who may neither have the wish nor possibly the ability so far as finances are concerned to do the work, and to pay money out of his own pocket. I must say I was very much surprised that I got no satisfactory reply from the Local Government Board. The gentleman who succeeded me was appointed at a less salary than I had, and the consequence is that the people in the district to which I refer are now absolutely in the hands of this medical man, who fortunately, is charitably inclined, and does the work. That is not an isolated case. Similar cases are to be found all over the country. Medical men are taking appointments, not because they are being paid sufficiently, but in a great many cases in order to keep other medical men out of the districts. I think if the Local Government Board have to sanction the appointments of medical men they ought to go into the matter and see that the work is paid for reasonably and satisfactorily. In the case to which I have referred I sent particulars to the Local Government Board, and got no satisfaction whatever, and the system is going on.

Another matter which comes under the management of the Local Government Board is this. When a person is suddenly-taken ill in London his friends have to look for a relief officer, and a great deal of bother and trouble takes place. I think there ought to be power given by the Local Government Board to some authority, say to the police officers in the London districts, so that if the child of a working man is taken suddenly ill during the night the necessary medical aid may be obtainable. That working man may be earning 30s. to £2 a week, but on a Friday night, when his child is taken ill, he may have no money, and he cannot get medical attendance unless he finds a medical man who is willing to get up in the middle of the night and take the risk of not being paid for so doing. I say that in big towns any person who has no money to call in a doctor ought, to be able to get an order for relief. If this Empire is going to be maintained you have to take into consideration the physique and the health of the people who in the future are going to govern. I hold that the present system of medical relief is absolutely wrong. It is niggardly. Doctors are not paid for their medicines, and the result is that the cost has to be paid out of their meagre salaries. You cannot expect medical men to go on as they have done in years gone by when trade was good and when the profession was not so overrun as it is now. The members of the medical profession do much philanthropic work in this country, but now there is the greatest possible difficulty for a medical man to make both ends meet. It is wrong to expect them to go on acting in this manner, and I trust that the Local Government Board will take into consideration the whole system under which they sanction appointments of men who are underpaid and who are being sweated. I trust that something will be done to see that boards of guardians pay proper and satisfactory salaries for the work that is being done.

I think my Noble Friend the Member for South Nottingham (Lord H. Cavendish-Bentinck) was a little hard on the President of the Local Government Board, and I should like to point out that as the law stands to-day it is exceedingly difficult for any Local Government Board to get their Orders carried out in practice by boards of guardians. I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Durham (Mr. J. W. Hills) and several others who have spoken as to the new authority which I think must be set up before the Poor Law problem is solved. In connection with the question of reform from within of the existing administration I think the hands of the Local Government Board are in many ways tied. The President of the Local Government Board issued an Order last year with respect to the boarding out of children, and he is going to issue an Order this year as to outdoor relief. But how is it possible for him to see that the Orders are enforced by recalcitrant unions? Many unions can only be made to carry out even elementary reforms by what may be called a system of blackmail. I think it is rather hard on the right horn Gentleman to say that no attempts have been made in the last few years. I am the last person to wish to defend any action of the present Government, but I do think that the Orders issued last year, and the efforts made by the President of the Local Government Board in the matter of children in particular do deserve recognition, for this reason, that they are sympathetic, and indicate an earnest desire to deal with the problem while the reform of the administration and the whole basis of the thing is still under consideration. There was one definite suggestion in the speech of the hon. Member who brought forward this question: He asked would it be possible for the Local Government Board to issue an Order dealing with the 9,000 children of school age who are still in workhouses? I simply rose to urge that particular point; that is a definite proposal, and one that should receive the most careful consideration. The President of the Local Government Board has been most anxious and worked hard to get the children out of workhouses in London. Everybody admits that there are children in country workhouses and workhouses in other towns who might be got out of those workhouses if similar methods were employed, and if similar work were put in by the Local Government Board. I know that it is arduous work, and that these 9,000 children will probably be the hardest to get out of the workhouse in the end, but I think that the suggestion that it should go out in the Order is one worthy of consideration.

I would ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is contemplating at this moment any further issue of Orders dealing with Poor Law reform before the whole question comes up for legislative treatment. I feel confident that the day must come when we will have a Poor Law Reform Bill of some kind. But does he contemplate any Order similar to the ones issued during the last few years, and are there any Orders dealing specifically with the subject which has been raised this afternoon, namely, children, public health, lunatics, feeble-minded, and vagrants? I know it is difficult within the terms of existing laws for these Orders to be enforced, but if an Order goes out with the sanction of the Local Government Board, very often after the advice and the publication of the Report of a Departmental Committee it does speed up the slack union to have it issued, and merely having this advisory document does help on the matter of Poor Law reform. One of the great difficulties of boards of guardians who desire reform is that they have no definite proposals to look to. I have spent many hours wading through the reports and appendices of the recent Commission on Poor Law and it is exceedingly difficult to get definite proposals. Certain Orders issued by the Local Government Board have been very helpful in suggesting to those guardians who are anxious for reform means which can be adopted, and I would like to ask the President of the Local Government Board what he contemplates issuing in that form in the coming year, or as long as his administration may last.

I rather differ from the opinion expressed by the previous speaker, as to the advantage of issuing more Orders under the present system, and for that reason I wish to support the proposal that has been made. I do so because if the system is bad the issue of new Orders is only bolstering up the old system, and, even if desirable in themselves, they tend to crystallise the existing state of affairs, when it ought to be swept away. The next reason is, although all of us realise that the President of the Local Government Board has been wholly and genuinely in earnest in dealing with these questions, yet when the result of all his dealings and attempts at amendment is really no better than the present state of things, and when we know that it can be no better despite all his efforts then surely the fact that he has done his best—and everyone realises he has—under present conditions, does not mean that the administration of the whole branch of our social system under this head is to be whitewashed, and is to have a certificate of goodness given to it. The fact is if the present conditions were inadequate formerly, practically every day that passes makes the present possibilities of administration more and more inadequate. Originally, no doubt, there was the assumption, and there was a great deal of truth in it, that any man who wished for work would be able to get the work. That, perhaps, was true decades ago, but the whole course of industrial development has made it more and more clear with the growth of big towns—that the old assumption, whatever truth there was in it then, has not got any truth in it now, and the more developed the great centres become the more it is true that the old assumption on which the Poor Law Commissioners based their original report, no longer holds good.

No doubt the inference is, as one of the Members for an East London Division has said, that we ought to try to remedy the causes of it. But, given the state of affairs as they are, it means that the administration of the Poor Law has got to deal with affairs much more closely and with much more discrimination instead of on the ordinary broad lines adopted fifty years ago. The result of that difference from the original assumption is that it can be no longer assumed that if a man wants work, therefore he can get it, and this means that all the boards of guardians for merely humanitarian reasons have been tinkering with the old severity of the Poor Law; and the fact that you tinker humanely with an old and severe system, does not mean that yon meet all the various gradations of circumstances that come before you. It means exactly, in the phrase of the Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), that you probably fail in your objects with regard to both the good classes and the bad classes of the people who come before you and in the phrase he used, which he quoted from a report which in all due humility I submitted to him, the Poor Law has become too bad for the good, and too good for the bad.

The development of industry moreover has affected not only the methods to be-applied but the administrative machinery that applies them. It has shown the impossibility of boards of guardians administering the law with their present composition. They differ almost entirely from any other governmental body that I think we have in this country. Here, for instance, in the public departments we-have the head of a changing department with a skilled staff under him, who definitely and avowedly do their work subject to his general direction, responsibility, and control. In municipal government you have something slightly-different. You have a committee charged with dealing with certain functions of municipal authority with the chairman at their head. But the chairman and committee consider and report on the work that is brought before them by their officer. In the boards of guardians, however, you have got a body which is supposed to act from personal individual knowledge on the part of each guardian, or some guardian of each individual case that comes before them.

In the old rural conditions of sixty years ago, in some rural districts now, and even in one or two urban unions, where the members of the boards of guardians give up their whole time to the work, this theory may conceivably be carried out. But as a whole it is perfectly impossible under the present state of affairs that what was the real underlying assumption of the boards of guardians could really be carried out in practice. The result is that in the unions that are best administered, the real administration is carried on by giving the go-by to the old hypothesis of the members of the boards of guardians each doing detailed investigation, and the work is carried out by the relieving officer instead. The result on administration of the fact that the old theory has become entirely divorced from modern conditions leads to one or two pretty general conclusions. The first is that the present administration is unsatisfactory and that even if the President of the Local Government Board were to issue Order after Order to the best of his ability, it will continue to remain unsatisfactory until the Government will let us, say, leave the constitutional question alone and get to business in the matter of Poor Law reform. Another result it leads to is that there is a really complete need of specialised treatment in the best sense of the word, and a new form of administration is needed to give that treatment. We know that in union after union there is segregation and greater segregation and the efforts of the President of the Local Government Board are devoted to that end. What really is not to be blamed, I think, in the present administration, is that you should have an ad hoc authority; but even if there should be an ad hoc authority at least it should be able to delegate the specialised treatment to those bodies that can best carry it out, the public health authority for cases with regard to the sick, and the educational authority with regard to the children at school. Moreover, there is really no difference between the two reports referred to in the resolution on this matter, because, although the Minority Report profess to give up an ad hoc authority in the beginning, they come back to it in the end, sub rosa, and set it up just as the Majority Report openly and avowedly do at the outset.

Together with the lack of specialised treatment, the great defect is you car never get away from the disparity of circumstances, and that there is need for greater discrimination. I am always surprised at the amount of discrimination and the amount of sympathy that the relieving officer can show. I think the amount of knowledge and of sympathy which he has is marvellous, under conditions that I should have thought would have tended to rob him of both, but at the same time, here we are, and case paper or no case paper, there is never the certainty and never will be the certainty that the proper case is given adequate relief. The whole assumption, whether it is in Manchester or in London or elsewhere, which has to be adopted by the relieving officer, is that the unfortunate individual to whom he is going to give outdoor relief has really got some additional income; if he has got it, it means that he is dishonest and that it is not disclosed, while if he is honest and has not got it then he has a greater hardship to put up with. The one thing that has to be faced is that there must be some means—I do not think either of the reports have faced this properly—some real means of discriminating quickly, so that ordinary boards of guardians in administration can get over the type of difficulty which came across my attention in Hackney. There you have got the decent man sleeping out on Hackney Marsh until he is half dead with exposure sooner than be brought into Hackney workhouse, while at the same time there is another cheery individual who uses the workhouse as a winter club and goes out in the summer and informs the master and the guardians—a fact of which they are well aware—that he knows the law just as well as any guardian or any clerk, and that they could not prevent him doing exactly as he wished. This is no reflection on Hackney. It is a reflection on the system which puts a Poor Law authority in such a position.

Another point in administration is the overlapping, and the need for regularisation with regard to medical relief. Whatever may be done, at present, if a man in the east of London wants medical relief he goes to a hospital, and yet remains a free and independent citizen. If he is in the south of London—and here I quarrel with the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. J. W. Hills), because the Camberwell Infirmary is not a penal settlement; it is just as good almost as any general hospital—

I am sorry I misrepresented the hon. Member, but I may take it that the Camberwell Infirmary is an exception to the general description which some hon. Gentleman gave. Though the Camberwell Infirmary is as good as any general hospital, if a man goes to it for treatment—and, on the whole, he does so without reluctance—he at once loses his vote. Surely that means, instead of sending out one general order after another, that, from the medical point of view, we should recognise that the treatment should be brought up to the level not only of modern social conditions, but also to the level of what is dictated by the increase of modern medical knowledge. Here we have at present certain infectious and notifiable diseases which do not pauperise those who are treated for them, whereas in the case of other diseases the pauperising disability is not removed. It is clear that phthisis is an infectious disease which should be dealt with just as other notifiable diseases are dealt with at present, and the policy is clear, though it might not be popular, that there ought to be the possibility of compulsory removal to some place of treatment. It would not be so unpopular if it could be made perfectly clear that pthisis should be put on the same basis as scarlet fever, because it is almost as infectious, and creates infinitely more hardship. Phthisis, like other incapacitating diseases, like rheumatism, ulcerated leg, or heart disease, should be segregated out under our modern knowledge, and should be differentiated from the ordinary medical case of a man who is run down, and should be treated accordingly. In conclusion, I would submit that the time has arrived when we should really have this question brought before us in a really comprehensive measure; indeed, the time is really over-past. The evils of administration are growing worse every day, and here we have a golden bridge between the two sides which ought to lead the Local Government Board with confidence to come forward with some scheme. As to the constitutional question, why cannot the Government lay it by for a time, and do something which would be much more advantageous? Why should not the people treat them as the cardinals are treated when they are electing a Pope? Let the accredited representatives be mewed up—the Conference came near it—till they agreed on their pontifical selection. But let other business go on meanwhile.

Several speakers this afternoon have spoken as if the Local Government Board could and should at once remove pauperism, and also poverty from which pauperism springs. A number of them, by the tone of their speeches, apparently think I am a sort of Prince Fortunatus, showering gold universally, where I am not a benevolent despot imposing my will illegally for good purposes upon the legally constituted authorities, who would rebel against me if I were to follow out half the bureaucratic suggestions made notably by the Noble Lord the Member for Nottingham (Lord Bentinck). I am to be, in the opinion of some, a law unto myself, imposing my will for good, and if I were to adopt the suggestions which come from some quarters, they would result in greater evils a few years hence than some of the difficulties we labour under at this moment. But others go further than that. One or two, to my surprise, although I recognise the kindness of their tone generally, say that nothing has been done to mitigate either the inequalities of poverty or the disabilities of pauperism during the past two years. One hon. Member, who should have known better, said that no single practical or effective step has been taken in two years. They ask me to exercise our existing powers, and I am regarded as an Eastern despot, bureaucratically enforcing my will upon people who would be better without it, even though the intention be good. But it is impossible for these Gentlemen, who so conflict in their criticism and their advice, to be consistent in either or both at once. The fact is that the Local Government Board cannot be expected to remove by administration the causes of misery and of destitution; these are economic in their origin and social in their operation.

Many evils that we hear of to-day spring rather from our faulty industrial system than from any lack of sympathy on the part of the Government Departments or administrative bodies. Many disabilities that we hear of to-day have been inherited through generations and centuries. To remove them will take a longer time than I shall be in my present office or any President of the Local Government Board; in fact they will not be removed by any legislative enactment, however large and comprehensive, and however well codified and drawn, so soon as many people think. But I have a right to be held to my administrative liability, duty, and responsibility, and I would ask hon. Members to look at the Motion. In the light and terms of that Motion I have not found to-day, and I have listened patiently to all that has been said, a single charge of omission on the part of the Department which is concerned with the administration of the Poor Law, and not a single charge of omission, except one raised by the hon. Member who represents an Irish constituency, in regard to his own special case in connection with the Local Government Board. I know all about that case. I think I exercised in its treatment an impartiality which I thought I was incapable of displaying before I took office. The fact is that the hon. Gentleman sold his practice, which indicates that there was some advantage in being a Poor Law officer under the Local Government Board. The hon. Gentleman very properly said that since my Presidency I have sought to improve the salaries and emoluments of medical officers, and to improve their capacities and opportunities to help the sick poor. I can assure the hon. Gentleman, if all he says about Poor Law appointments be true, namely, as to harshness of treatment and poverty of allowance by boards of guardians, there would not be the almost indecent rush that there is on the part of medical men to come within the area of my benevolent despotism.

I would like to draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that this particular practice had a Poor Law practice attached to it for years for the simple reason that there was no other doctor in the district.

I think the fact that he held that monopoly would enable him to exact almost any terms. I think on examination it will be found that my hon. Friend is labouring under a hardship more imaginary than real, and he perhaps, under all the circumstances, was anxious to follow a noble example, and that was to serve his country on the floor of this House rather than to sell and prescribe medicine for people in Yorkshire. I prefer to take the more charitable view. I am supposed to sit still, as I have done, to listen, to be patient, and to submit to the various streams of criticism that have been poured upon me to-day. But I propose to state my defence against the criticisms that have been made, and deal with a few suggestions. But I must tell the hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Steel-Maitland) that I am surprised at the speech he made, because he knows better. He sins against the light, because he is one of the few distinguished and capable men whom the Poor Law Commissioners employed for special inquiries, which he conducted with that assiduity and capacity which he shows in this House on many occasions. But when he tells me that certain things ought to be done which are not done, and when he disagrees, as he docs, with one Poor Law Commissioner on several points, and with several of my critics on others, and when he finds Royal Commissioners and investigators stating that they are unable to come to something like common agreement on vexed points, how can I be expected in five minutes to change the face of pauperism, and remove that poverty which is the cause of pauperism?

On a point of Order, I would suggest to the President of the Local Government Board, with all due deference, that our wrangles have come to a conclusion in the county councils association's report.

Before I deal with that, I would recall the hon. Member's attention to the fact that he said circulars are of no use; but I can assure the hon. Member that, so far as children are concerned, I never did anything in my life, either by circular or by Order, which has borne more fruitful results than the circular as to children which was sent to the Poor Law authorities over a year ago. The hon. Member said Orders are of no good. He knows very well that I cannot exercise what powers I have a right to put in force unless I issue an Order now and then, and he knows that until this subject is treated legislatively in all its aspects I have a right to do good whilst the responsibility is on me. He knows very well also that Orders secure uniformity of treatment, and that a circular persuades, advises, and often compels local authorities to take things in hand. I shall lose no opportunity, therefore, of doing good until Parliament deals with this question as a whole. The hon. Member further says that alterations, whatever they may be, will be of no avail. I would urge him to withdraw the words "no avail" and say "little avail," or I would even say "some avail." I quite agree with hon. Members below the Gangway that many evils that I am supposed to remove are the results of the social system, which no Poor Law administration could possibly abolish, and can only to a slight extent mitigate. Is he in favour of the Collectivist solution of the Poor Law problem—namely, the nationalisation of all the land and means and instruments of production. If so, then I can assure him that the bulk of his fellow-countrymen are not with him on that particular point, and are rather inclined to agree that my transient yet curative treatment is one which provides remedies in a practical and sensible way.

I hope I gave the right hon. Gentleman, as everybody else did, full credit for the reforms he has carried out, while at the same time trying to express, within the limits of order on the terms of the Resolution, that administration, though it can be slightly amended, can never be made right until we get, what would have been out of order to refer to, full legislation on the subject, and that that was what we are all really aiming at. If the right hon. Gentleman had only been here last night he would have recognised that my hon. Friends below the Gangway and myself, though we differ in some respects, and, without agreeing as to the collectivist solution, do agree that the causes should be altered, and we were both willing to make suggestions to that effect.

No doubt many of the reforms the hon. Member would like to have can only be attained by legislation, but to-day we are discussing administration, and, in the main, administration alone. Let me give the hon. Member an instance that will be more congenial to him. He quoted the case of a phthisical patient in some London infirmary. I will take Camberwell, as I think it was there. The hon. Member ought to have known that an Order which he thinks little of, and which he brushes on one side, enables that now to be done. No one has mentioned it, but I think I have a right to claim it for my Department. We have made consumption a notifiable disease. Against strong pressure from many quarters, I thought that the 35 per cent. of the total consumption which is dealt with in Poor Law administration ought to be made notifiable, and it was so made eighteen months ago. The effect of it has been reflected in a considerable diminution of consumption, due to the fact that that notification sets in motion machinery the effect of which is that immediately a phthisical patient in a workhouse is found to be suffering from elementary consumption or from serious consumption that patient now, but not formerly, is notified to the medical officer of health of the district, and beyond him to a committee of benevolent ladies who formerly could not be invoked in this useful public service. The result is that by the efforts of the public health authority plus nourishment and attention, often the taking of the children away, all those agencies of an ameliorative, and in may cases preventive character, are brought into operation as the result of this Order issued eighteen months ago. On that I took a great risk, because it is said in another part of the United Kingdom that the notification of consumption has done a great deal of harm to some men who were consumptives. Therefore the matter has to be done cautiously, and by experiments. So satisfied were we of the success in notifying the 35 per cent. of consumption in the Poor Law that we have since required the notification of another 35 per cent. who go not to the Poor Law infirmary, or to the workhouse, but who go to the general hospitals and consumptive hospitals. Six weeks ago I brought an additional 35 per cent. in with the result that in secrecy and under bond of confidence every man treated for consumption not under the Poor Law but at the special or general hospitals in London or the provinces, is notified to the local authority with the result that his disease is mitigated. Possibly if it is in the elementary stage steps are taken by seeing that he has good food if he cannot go away, but preferably to send him to a sanatorium where he can be permanently relieved or get effective treatment.

That leaves but 30 per cent. more to be dealt with and those form a very, very difficult case. They are a class of people who do not appeal to the Poor Law and who do not go to general, or public, or special hospitals. If the 35 per cent. brought in six weeks ago show the promise of the previous experiment I think I will have the House with me if I make that additional experiment, and if the facts warrant me I am prepared to submit to any criticism as a result of a piece of benevolent despotism of that special kind. I mention those instances to show how unconsciously and unfairly our department has been subject, either to misapprehension or to criticism. I come to the other point in which the hon. Member was not alone, as several hon. Members said we ought to change the venue of pauperism and transfer it from the guardians to the county councils. This is not the day or occasion on which I intend to deal with this, but I want to point out that pauperism means pauperism, call it by whatever name you label your dependence, and the mere transfer of pauperism and poverty and the accumulated heritage of sickness, invalidity, and degeneracy that we have had transmitted to us through centuries is not going to be disposed of by transferring their treatment from the board of guardians either to an overworked town or county council, or to any other authority that you may set up in substitution. That is not a subject for discussion to-day, but I do ask hon. Members to think between now and the time that that problem is discussed, and to realise that on this subject the Majority and Minority Reports differed. It is true the county councils have expressed themselves in one resolution as being favourable to the transfer. The boards of guardians are opposed to it. I have heard nothing from the London County Council upon that particular subject.

In these days, when we are increasing, and I do not put this dogmatically or finally, when we are giving, as we have done, not only small holdings and pensions, but military organisations, housing, and educational duties to the town and county councils, it is a moot point as to whether the county councils are in a position to take over absolutely all the duties that the Poor Law authorities now discharge. I want to point out to hon. Members below the Gangway that in talking of pauperism to-day we are not talking of the same thing that was talked about many years ago. We are apt to lose sight of where pauperism to-day is compared with where it was when the much-abused; Poor Law authorities of 1834 were created. I am a man of fact. I believe, with my distinguished namesake, Robert Burns, that—
"Facts are chiels that winna ding"
Carlyle said:—
"Give me facts, feed me on facts."
They are the only things that influence life. Here is one fact underlying much misunderstanding in speeches and misinterpretations in observations to-day; here is one fact which you cannot dispose of and for which the much-abused boards of guardians deserve great credit. In 1850 we had 62 per 1,000 of our population paupers. In 1906 that figure of sixty-two was reduced to twenty-six. Since I have been President of the Local Government Board the twenty-six has diminished to 18.7.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding."
That is the total of pauperism. When I deal with out-door pauperism it is even better still. Out-door pauperism was 54 per 1,000 in 1850. It was 15 per 1,000 in 1909, and it is only eleven at this moment.

7.0 P.M.

Yes, but the hon. Member must not quote the Government remedies and then not credit them for introducing them as a means of solving pauperism. My hon. Friend had better hear my story out. Children, of whom we have properly heard a great deal to-day, have been reduced in these years from 26 per 1,000 to seven, and able-bodied out-door relief has been reduced from 12 to only two per 1,000, or almost a negligible quantity. Indoor patients, with better treatment, better hospitals, and better nurses, remain at practically a stationary figure. Those are the facts, and we ought to give them, because we spent £600,000,000 since 1834 upon solving this and cognate problems. I am surprised, all things considered, that relatively so small an amount of money has done so much good when you consider what little good has been done with larger amounts that have been spent on war, desolation, and anti-social purposes. Having given the numbers, I also give the cost per head, because that indicates the difference in method of treatment. The cost per head has risen in round figures from £7 18s. to £13 for indoor pauperism, which means better doctors, more nurses, better food, and better accommodation, while for the out-door the amount has grown from £3 11s. to £6 2s. Per head of the population of the whole kingdom the cost of our pauperism on diminished numbers has increased from 6s. 8d. to 8s. 4d., while the rate required, which shows how wealthy we are becoming, has dropped from 1s. 8d. to 1s. 6d. I mention those facts to show how pauperism in many aspects has yielded to progressive, scientific, and more humanised treatment under the much-abused boards of guardians. In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland (Mr. Goldstone) in the light of some of his observations in the House I want him to realise these simple facts, and that Poor Law expenditure on the indoor poor has increased 33 per cent. on the sick and infirm from 25 to 30 per cent., and on the out-door 45 per cent. In London the cost per week per pauper in workhouse infirmaries has risen from 14s. 3d. to 20s. or over, and the workhouse infirmaries in London and in all the big towns are comparable with the best of the general hospitals to which both poor and rich subscribe.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the rate on administration has been higher than the rate of expenditure on the people themselves?

That can be easily answered, but it must be answered in several ways. A person in extremis may want hardly any food at all, and even the food he does want may be less costly than other food. But he requires a doctor of the highest skill and three shifts of nurses, so that the small amount that is saved on food has to be paid five or six times over in skilled attendance. It is universally admitted that in regard to doctors, nurses, and food, the infirmaries of our poor institutions—this was said even by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), who is an extreme critic—are abreast of the best general hospitals.

I come to the general suggestion that, notwithstanding what we have been doing by administration, by circular, and by Order, in the absence of a legislative enactment dealing with the Poor Law on the lines of the Majority or the Minority Report, pauperism shows no sign of abatement. I have dealt with the cost in money and with the general diminution, but I must ask the House to listen to these facts. Since 1905 total pauperism in numbers has diminished by 22 per cent., outdoor pauperism by 33 per cent. In London total pauperism has diminished by 14 per cent., outdoor pauperism by 37 per cent. I will take an East End district, which I may frankly say is Poplar. Poplar has had its total pauperism reduced since 1905 by 36 per cent., and its outdoor pauperism by 56 per cent. That is something of which the House ought to be proud and with which the Local Government Board is pleased. I will add another thing which hon. Members often forget. From 84 per cent. to 90 per cent. of the total pauperism with which we have to deal is not pauperism of the industrial character which has been described. It is due to physical, mental, or other disability. From 12 per cent. to 18 per cent. is more or less mentally defective. So far as the problem of the able-bodied is concerned, out of 900,000 people dependent upon rates and taxes for their subsistence, I am glad to say that we have in all our workhouses less than 10,000 able-bodied men in health. I rejoice that by administration we have been able considerably to reduce pauperism and disability during the last five or six years.

I will now deal with a point raised by the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Goldstone), in his excellent and kindly speech. He said that we ought to concentrate on the children. "A little child shall lead them" is a good Scriptural saying, and a very fine social maxim. We are rarely wrong in the House of Commons when we deal with the children. But to listen to one or two speakers one would think that children were still herded in mixed workhouses, as they were when Oliver Twist was flogged and Little Dorrit was punished. What are the facts? I will quote London, because, in many respects, it is a more difficult area to grapple with than the provinces. Out of the 22,700 children that there are in London in all forms of Poor Law institutions, only 1,062 are in the workhouse proper. Of these 771 are under three years of age, and they are far better at the breast of the mother than they would be if taken away and put into either a palace, a hospital, or a home. Fifty-eight are in the sick wards, leaving in the workhouse proper only 229 children over three years of age out of nearly 23,000. Of these 229, 140 are in three unions, namely, Islington, Wandsworth, and Lewisham.

These facts and figures I do not say absolutely refute, but they are a sufficient answer to the suggestion that in the matter of the children the Local Government Board has not been discharging its duty. If I am asked to deal with the children in England and Wales, nearly as good but not quite so good a result as in London can be shown, because London has command of a number of institutions which a benevolent despot like myself, in the matter of children, can commandeer and put to other and better uses. The House of Commons will be pleased to know that in consequence of the diminution of infectious diseases which we have witnessed in this big city of ours within the last few years, we have had placed at our disposal magnificent public institutions, which we are increasingly filling up, not only with the children that we have taken from the workhouse, who formerly were there, but with children whose parents were too proud to take them to the workhouse or to the general hospital. We are persuading parents to send the children into these new hospitals so that the children can get better, effective, and, I hope, permanent treatment for their passing ailments. Therefore, in the matter of children, by Order, by Circular, and by the reports and persuasion of our inspectors, in London we have got practically all the children out of the workhouses, and in the provinces within the next three years I sincerely trust the same result may be secured.

With regard to the children boarded out, not a single complaint has been uttered. We have a large number of children boarded out—many thousands. Hon. Members know that I have appointed four new lady inspectors, who last year inspected over 300 institutions besides scattered homes, with enormous advantage to the children so inspected. So far as the children themselves are concerned, I say, speaking as a Minister at this Box, that I envy, or would have envied when I was a child, anything like the food, the clothes, the comfort, the treatment, and the kindly care that a Poor Law child now gets, whether in a barrack school, a scattered home, a cottage home, or any other Poor Law institution. What is the test of that? It is that indoor children in institutions have spent upon them from 9s. to 25s. per week; in district schools, from 10s. 2d. to 13s. 7d.; in barrack schools, from 10s. 4d. to 18s.; in cottage homes, from 12s. 9d. to 25s. 2d.; in scattered homes, from 8s. to 11s. 2d. As to their education, at this moment, out of 70,000 children in institutions under the Poor Law, not more than 400 are educated in workhouse schools proper, and then mainly because they are mentally defective and have no right to be sent to public elementary schools, where they might become the butt of stronger and healthier children. The children go either to public elementary schools or Poor Law schools, with results that in many respects are exceedingly good. What is the test of their goodness? Out of 12,700 children passed through London Poor Law schools in ten years, only fifty-two have been returned to the boards of guardians by their employers as being of bad character or unfit for their particular work. Neither Eton nor Harrow, Rugby nor Winchester, can show anything like so good a record of conduct as our Poor Law children do when they have been sufficiently long under the jurisdiction of that at one time flinty-hearted Pharaoh who has now become the benevolent despot whom the House is anxious to press forward to even greater despotism than he has yet shown.

I need really say no more on administration. But it has been suggested in one or two ways that what has been done by administration, by circular, and by Order-is not enough. I never said it was. But I had hoped that on this vexed problem we might have got, as we should have got, a united Report from the Poor Law Commission. I regret that before the country at this moment you have the Majority Report, the Minority Report, Mr. Charles Booth's scheme, and the county council scheme, whilst the guardians object either to some of the four or in many cases to all. I would ask the House to remember this fact. If I am asked to recommend to the Government some of the schemes—and I am recommending certain proposals with regard to the Poor Law—I must ask the House to remember what Lord George Hamilton has said about one of them. Speaking as Chairman of the Royal Commission, he said of one report:—
"It would mean annihilation of the family system; it would end in absolute administrative chaos and result in universal local bankruptcy."
[A laugh.] The hon. Member cannot dispose of the Chairman of a Royal Commission by a laugh.

You cannot dispose of a man like Lord George Hamilton by a passing laugh. We know Lord George Hamilton here. He was appointed, and he did his duty exceedingly well as Chairman of the Royal Commission, and when he tells me that one scheme of Poor Law reform or transmutation, call it what you like, will cost from £18,000,000 to considerably more, I ask hon. Members who are continually pitching into the Government for their extravagance on everything to remember that we cannot be economical and carry out one of the proposals submitted by the Royal Commission. Having warned the House that any change will be costly, not to say extravagant, may I, as I am entitled to do, put another aspect of the case? That is this: There is not so much cause for regret that in the eighteen months which have elapsed since the Commission reported nothing legislative has been done, but much that is administrative and good has been achieved. Why do I say that? I say that because the issues of the problem are changing very fast. The remedies suggested are varying. You cannot get amongst Poor Law reformers now but what they admit that in the last eighteen months certain things have happened which were not previously within their knowledge, and which have altered the problem considerably in its scope, character, and complexion. The problems submitted only six years ago are being met in other ways. The Majority Report, in my judgment, even now is to a certain extent somewhat archaic. The Minority Report, in the light of certain things which have been done recently, is somewhat obsolete, and if the Government had adopted either, or both, or a combination of the reports—

Yes; we know the people who do not understand: the pinch-beck revolutionists. They have not the courage of the Girondists, who had the decency to go to the scaffold when asked. The recommendations of the Minority have been rendered almost obsolete by other methods, and the Government have been arriving at much better results by Government action during the last four or five years. In bolder manner the Government are trying in a more generous way to solve the problem of pauperism by removing the causes of destitution. Hon. Members may be impatient, but they have got to listen to facts. Since the Reports were issued in 1909, 1,000,000 people who were either potential or actual paupers have been given a State bounty, instead of being asked to accept a Poor Law dole. That is considerable progress in a short time. That is responsible for the diminution of 22 per cent. of the total pauperism, and 33 per cent. of the outdoor pauperism. This is a more excellent way than by institutionalising men, segregating mankind into draught-board squares, co-ordinating and classifying them into institutions, and, by a process of restriction, detention, and supervision, making any form of relief of that kind infinitely worse to a man of free spirit than making him a prisoner at Dartmoor or at Wormwood Scrubbs. So much for the aged. £13,000,000 have been spent in the last two years in relieving and transforming from pauperism into State pensioners 1,000,000 of actual or potential paupers. That is a solid achievement.

I come now to the other question. I am asked, "But what have you done for unemployment and the distress arising from it?" I will tell my hon. Friends who for the last five or six years have done me the honour of confirming me in my beliefs by the vigour of their criticisms. [Laughter.] Well, I am quite prepared to leave to an impartial public as to whether they were more wrong than I was right, and I am convinced that the arbitrators will be on our side. [An HON MEMBER: "They always are!"] Yes, that is the disagreeable fact. As to unemployment, a million of money has been spent in relief work. With what result? We have come to the conclusion, after five years spending of money, that both the Majority and the Minority came to, that relief works were worse than no remedy at all. They accentuate the evil, and did more harm than good. I have survived the opposition in upholding that view four years in advance of the people who are now converted to my previously sane belief. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh."] If hon. Members object to the word "previously "I will withdraw it, and say "presciently" sane belief. But some will say, "What is the Government proposing to do on the question?" I have only this to say: The Royal Commission condemned relief works, and we confirm their belief. The Royal Commission, both sections, advocated the institution of Labour Exchanges to organise the applications from individual workmen for work and to regulate the work of employers for workmen. That scheme has been launched and has been subject to much criticism, a great deal of it unfair and unreasonable. I believe that five years hence those who oppose Labour Exchanges will be as much converted to their wisdom as they are now to the folly of relief works. The Government has a right to be told: "That is not sufficient." To that we say "agreed!"

The Government propose this year to establish a scheme of compulsory insurance for unemployment, to guard against the fluctuations which are inevitable in industry. As the scheme will disclose when the President of the Board of Trade gives it to the House about a week hence, we contend that what we have done by pensions plus Labour Exchanges, and then will submit through the agency of the unemployment insurance, will be a good and solid advance upon either what the Royal Commission, Majority or Minority Report, was in favour of. Quite as good, we have been asking—and I have been doing it in and out of season—the local authorities of the country to regularise the work they do. Local authorities spend £150,000,000 per annum in all forms of public work. I believe if the public authorities regularise that work more than they now do, and they are doing more than they did—and all the steps I can take to bring pressure to bear upon them to carry it out I am doing—if they regularise this enormous amount of public work it will bring untold benefits to the navvy, the bricklayer's labourer, and to the general and casual labourer, who is frequently out of work because no attempt is made either by the local authority—nor in the past by Government departments—to regularise the total amount of public work that is to be secured. My last point or two is this: Suppose we were to carry out everything the Majority and the Minority Reports recommended; suppose we were to adopt the view submitted from below the Gangway and from hon. Gentlemen opposite, they know full well that there would still be much left to do, that neither the Minority or the Majority Report thought of or suggested a way out of.

Our suggestion is that we have a right to have, concurrently with all we have mentioned, whatever our schemes may be, policies on other matters than those directly bearing upon the Poor Law. We have got to have a land policy that will stop the townward trend. It is not my fault that that land policy has not been more progressive, and it is not the fault—[An HON. MEMBER: "Whose fault is it?"] I will answer the hon. Member if he will listen. Whose fault? I say that it is no mean achievement in two clear years to have taken 101,000 acres from the rural domain of this country, and to have planted on them from 9,000 to 10,000 small holders.

The hon. Member has had his day; this is not his day It is no small achievement, and one that relatively pride may be felt in, that in two years these thousands of small holders have been transferred from being labourers into small holders, at a cost of £2,000,000. I believe that in the development of that policy, and not by any form of improved poor law, we shall find a better and sounder remedy than in half the nostrums we hear of outside, and the many visionary speculations I have had to listen to in the last five years. If in the next five years we do for England what the Irish Land policy has done for Ireland, if in the next five years we are able to develop our housing policy, and grapple with our housing difficulties as the Irish Local Government Board has done, it will be well. The Irish Local Government Board have grappled with the housing of the Irish labourer, and in five years have built over 30,000 cottages at a cost of £6,000,000, with untold benefit in the reduction of disease, tuberculosis particularly, an improvement almost beyond the idea of what some of us thought could be done in so short a time. It is our business to tell the House that beyond Pensions, Labour Exchanges, Unemployed Insurance, and a Land and Housing Policy, all of which should be accelerated and improved, we still have left the greatest difficulty, which has hardly been touched by any speaker today. People talk of pauperism as if it were a matter of wages; as if it were a matter of moral or physical disability. It is not so at all. Pauperism in its main elements is a matter of sickness and ill-health. How do I prove that? We spend £15,500,000 on Poor Law in England and Wales, for which my department is responsible. Thirty per cent of the total pauperism on which we spend these millions is due to sickness, and to sickness alone. Fifty per cent. of the cost of pauperism is due to sickness, and to sickness alone. Whatever you do in the way of converting guardians into councillors, of calling Poor Law public benevolence, and pauperism State assistance, unless you grapple with sickness, with ill-health, and invalidity, a good deal of the causes of pauperism will remain, and the Government hope to deal with this in an infinitely more statesmanlike and bolder and more generous way than was ever conceived or dreamt of by either the Majority or Minority Reports. It will propose, through the Chancellor of the Exchequer, bolder and more generous methods, and it will submit a scheme in principle, plan, and policy which will not pauperise, but will protect character, and will minister to minds diseased and bodies distressed. Its ultimate result will be that insurance, concerted, organised, scientific, will attack poverty and destitution. We hope to convert pauperism into self-supporting invalidity and convalescence, so that by this process we may reduce sickness, diminish invalidity, and apply rational methods to wasteful and prolific disease.

That is my reply to the criticisms made. I have been asked to submit what the Government plan is with regard to many of these proposals. I ask the House to rest assured that until these schemes are introduced and passed the Local Government Board will continue to help the aged, to improve the conditions of the sick poor, and especially to concentrate upon improving the condition of the children. We shall continue to do our best to strike a blow at disease and sickness and to improve the general conditions of life by diminution of the death rate. The wonderful diminution in infant mortality in the past five years by 45 per cent., and other improvements which we all desire, will tend to secure for this country that the poor man shall no longer be handicapped in the markets of the world by deteriorated physique, and shall be no longer subjected to the misery of life destroyed and crippled by lack of that original good health which ought to be the heritage of everybody. So far as regulation and administration can continue this improvement we shall do our best. I hope by this rough general truthful sketch of what the Board is doing by administration, and the Government intends to do by unemployment insurance and invalidity, I have answered the suggestions made and replied to the criticisms offered, I am convinced I have the general concensus of opinion in the House with me when I say that so far as the administration of the Local Government Board is concerned I have answered with satisfaction and, I hope, with kindness and courtesy the various criticisms directed against it.

The President of the Local Government Board has made an interesting speech, and has expressed the hope that he has answered the points of criticism developed by those who took part in the Debate. I can assure him he has done a great deal more. He has touched upon a great many points no one else touched upon. He has answered criticisms never directed against him, and he has imparted an air of finality into the Debate. We all of us welcome the breezy speeches the right hon. Gentleman delivers, and we would not have him alter his method or his manner for a moment. No one will deny the importance of the questions raised in the most temperate and excellent speech of the hon. Member for Sunderland, and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would be the last to complain of the tone which the Debate has taken. The matter under discussion is of such extraordinary importance that it is obviously difficult for any of those taking part in the Debate to confine their observations within the limits of order necessarily imposed upon us by the circumstances in which the matter is brought forward. The points raised are most worthy of examination and discussion. The Debate has been carried on necessarily with reference only to the administration of the Poor Law as it-exists. On that account our field of vision is narrowed. We have been unable until the right hon. Gentleman sets us the example, which I do not intend to follow, of surveying these wider areas of the social system of the country which we would desire to do if the subject was brought on in other circumstances.

I want to refer to one or two observations made in the course of the Debate, and to touch very briefly upon the questions opened up by the speakers who preceded me. There were three main questions developed in the course of the afternoon, one relating to children, the second to mixed workers, and the third to matters of public health. The right hon. Gentleman had a good deal to tell us that was exceedingly satisfactory with reference to the question of the children. We were all glad to hear of the great advance made in the direction of taking the children out of the workhouses and in the improvement and the conditions under which they are boarded out, and in the improvement of their education. The advance, which has been steady in the last twenty-five years in that direction, has perhaps been accelerated in the last five years. I could not help noticing that the figures the right hon. Gentleman gave in regard to the children had reference to the area of London rather than to the area of the country as a whole. I should be glad to know if the ratio of progress has been as rapid and marked in the country as a whole as in the case of London. I cannot help thinking that the strong and vigorous personality of the right hon. Gentleman himself has had a good deal to do with stirring up of boards of guardians in London, and if that be the case we owe a great debt of gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman, as some of us have reason to believe.

The right hon. Gentleman made reference to the question of mixed workhouses, but I am sorry he did not tell us what his policy was with regard to that extraordinary question. A question based upon that matter showing the difficulty, or rather the reluctance some unions have in complying with what they conceive to be the policy of the Local Government Board has been brought to my notice. I understand some of the unions have been anxious to add to the existing workhouses with a view to making some progress with the classification of inmates. I understand it is the policy of the Local Government Board to direct local authorities to build large new workhouses rather than to improve and add to the old ones. I should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would give us some indication that those who take this view of his policy are mistaken, because I think it may be possible to bring about classification if he would allow existing institutions to be enlarged rather than to compel the building of new and expensive workhouses in which the mixed system would continue to exist. The hon. Member who seconded this Motion touched upon what I think is one of the greatest evils to be found in the system of mixed workhouses, namely, those unhappy women of feeble minds constantly coming in to give birth to illegitimate children. The regularity with which they come in is almost inconceivable. The hon. Gentleman asked how long are we to continue to allow this state of things to exist. Surely something might be done to classify those people and to segregate them and to prevent them continuing the deplorable life in which so many of them pass their days. I am well aware of the difficulties of classification. Some people speak of it as if it were the simplest thing to divide the people into a series of watertight compartments; to divide the able-bodied men from the infirm, and to divide the feeble-minded from the sane. I believe the difficulty of classification is very great, and it is a matter of supreme difficulty to draw a line of demarkation between these various classes. But difficult though it be, we ought not to lose any time before attempting a solution. We should not allow the mere difficulty of a problem to prevent us from attempting to solve it. An hon. Member who spoke earlier referred to the efforts which the authorities in the county of Devon have made to deal with this matter, and he commented upon the difficulties thrown in the way of the local authorities which they found to be almost insurmountable. I doubt if Parliament could devote its energies to any question of greater magnitude or importance than to this problem which we found so difficult last year.

The hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury), in a speech to which I listened with great interest, and which he made with great self-restraint, and which lost none of its effectiveness on that account, deal especially with matters relating to the question of public health. I listened to one sentence that fell from his lips with a great deal of sympathy. He said, "Socialist as I am, I would not allow a man or a family to live in dirt or disease." With that the whole House will agree. The hon. Gentleman thinks that power should be given to the local authorities to take a man suffering from disease and living in conditions of overcrowding by force if necessary, and bring him to hospital; but the difficulty is this, Where are the hospitals? You may say it shall be no longer lawful for a man suffering from disease to live in one room with his family and to breathe infection by day and by night. You may turn him into the street, but if there is no hospital accommodation you compel him to go to the workhouse. The remedy for that, as I understand it, would involve legislation, and it would be out of order for me to discuss the steps which might properly be taken to provide the necessary hospital accommodation for all those men we think ought to be taken into the hospital. I think, however, that something might be done by the Local Government Board. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Strand (Mr. Long) was President of the Local Government Board he made a start in this direction for the first time by giving local authorities power to erect sanatoria in which cases of phthisis might be treated. I hope the President of the Local Government Board will have figures at his command to show that the steps taken under the auspices of my right hon. Friend have been successful, and if so I hope he will take steps to extend that system. The hon. Member for Hoxton (Dr. Addison), who speaks with great authority on these subjects, touched upon an aspect of this problem which we all keep present to our minds. He said that when you take a man suffering from phthisis or some other disease, when you can get him into the workhouse infirmary or into some institution where he may receive medical relief, it is too late to get at him, and the wrong time. The hon. Member said you ought to be able to attack his disease earlier in order to prevent it rather than cure it. I think something will be done in this direction by the system of insurance to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded.

The hon. Member for Hoxton referred to the action of the Local Government Board, and said some people say nothing has been done and that it is not fair to say that. He also pointed out that the true method of preventing destitution is to tackle the cause of poverty at its root, and that the cause of poverty lies, to a very large extent, in our present social system. The hon. Member also gave his experience of a visit to one of our Labour Exchanges, where he was told that while it was comparatively easy to find occupation for skilled men out of work, it was almost impossible to find work for men who were unskilled. Further, he traced the difficulty of the presence of large numbers of unskilled men to the influx of unskilled labourers from the country districts into the towns, and the cheers with which his remarks were greeted, show that his remarks were generally assented to by hon. Members. What is the best way of preventing these men from leaving the country and coining into the town? The best way is to keep them in the country, and the best way to accomplish that object is to reform your fiscal system as well as your social system. The policy of the Government has failed to keep these men in the towns. The right hon. Gentleman, towards the end of his speech, referred to the policy of the Government with reference to small holdings. I see no signs in the figures given to us by the Board of Agriculture of any success attending the policy of the Government in that direction. I know there have been various signs of impatience on the part of hon. Members who have taken part in this debate at the delay which has taken place and at the fact that nothing has been attempted. I do not wonder that hon. Members feel impatient when the Majority and Minority Reports of the Royal Commission disclose such a state of things as would make anyone who has any regard for the interests of his fellow men impatient at the delay in any attempt to improve their condition.

It would, however, be a fallacy to allow our natural impatience to hurry us into premature or inconsidered action. We have had no opportunity since the Royal Commission reported, about two years ago, of discussing this question, because the Government during the whole of those two years has made itself master of the whole of the time of the House, and has deliberately refrained from giving us any opportunity of considering the question. Therefore there has been no occasion upon which this subject could be raised or adequately discussed, and no opportunity for a debate which might have guided the steps and strengthened the hands of the President of the Local Government Board in his administration of the law. While the limits within which the President of the Local Government Board can bring pressure to bear upon the various local authorities may be narrow, I am happy to acknowledge frankly and fully the steps that he has taken, and I admit, with all the pleasure in life, that a great deal of the work he has done has been of great value to the community as a whole. But while I acknowledge the right hon. Gentleman's zeal, energy, and excellent intentions in the steps he has taken, the results are trifling compared with the magnitude of the problem which is suggested in the Motions we are now discussing. I do not believe that this great question is going to be settled for some years to come; in fact, I do not believe it will be settled at all by the party now in power. The Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) made an appeal to the House to take some steps to deal with this great question, and other hon. Members have reechoed that appeal. I do not believe we are going to get any opportunity to do so because the Government by squandering the time of the present and mortgaging the time of the future by reckless schemes of constitutional reform are denying both to the House and themselves the opportunity of giving to this great and complex question that consideration which it demands and deserves.

At first I did not intend to intervene in the Debate. A good many aspects of this problem have been touched upon, and I have listened with patience to discover whether anyone would refer to the vital cause that lies at the root of present-day destitution. Dealing with this question of prevention, the right hon. Gentleman's first reference was one to old age pensions. It appears, however, to me that we must go deeper down to find out what the cause is. These are the days of preventive treatment. The time was when in medical science medical men were content with making a diagnosis and applying a cure, but the modern medical man thinks it is his duty not only to diagnose and cure but to find out the cause and to instruct his patients in the cause in order to prevent its occurrence in any other members of the same family. The basic cause of destitution is not to be found in our social system; it is not to be found in our land laws, and it is not to be found in the wages system. The basic primary cause of destitution is physical, mental, and moral defects in the individual. The figures quoted by the right hon. Gentleman show that sickness is largely responsible, and that nearly 90 per cent. of those who are now inhabitants of Poor Law institutions are there because of some physical defect. Those who do not suffer in this way can meet difficulties. Every difficulty which the President of the Local Government Board has met has stimulated him to higher efforts, and because he was strong mentally and physically, those difficulties have proved only a stimulus to higher effort. But, notwithstanding the defects of our social system, our land laws, and the wages system, a normal individual under those circumstances may overcome them, grapple with them, and succeed.

8.0 P.M.

With regard to physical, mental and moral defects, nearly 80 per cent. of them are hereditary. We are breeding from defective stock. There has been a remarkable decline in the birth-rate in all civilised nations. One of the most remarkable phenomena of modern times is this decline of the birth-rate. This has not taken place uniformly amongst all classes of the community, but amongst our best people. It has not taken place at all amongst the worst people. The birthrate goes on undisturbed amongst defectives, mental and physical. Since most defects are hereditary, we find to-day that this remarkable phenomenon exists, that the increase amongst the defectives is greater than ever it was in proportion. If we class the community into the fit and the unfit, that is those on the one hand who are fit to toil and carry their own burdens and fit to produce healthy and normal offspring, and, on the other hand, those who are unfit to bear their own burdens and carry their own weight and unfit to produce healthy, normal offspring; if we classify the community in that way and not as to their social merits or demerits, but simply as to fitness, we will find that the birth-rate has declined in a remarkable way amongst those who are fit, while it has been undisturbed amongst those who are unfit. Further than that, all our Christianising and humanitarian influences tend to make the unfit more fertile. If you go down into the slums and pick out defectives, and, because of humanitarian effort, tide them over difficulties that would crush them out, and then teach, protect, and isolate them, you may bring to the child-bearing period of life an enormous number of both sexes who would otherwise be crushed out. I am not complaining of this. It is our duty, in obedience to our humanitarian and Christian instincts, to save these defections wherever they are, but it is also our duty to see that the State is not burdened by an increasing fertility of these defectives. If you classify those who are a burden upon the State into those who have acquired their defects and those who have been born with them, you will find quite 80 per cent. of those who are defective suffer from their defects because of the law of heredity. Because of the instances which the right hon. Gentleman opposite gave, and which some of the speakers below the Gangway gave, and because of the utmost freedom accorded to all those defective classes to propagate their kind we find the number of defectives is still increasing at a remarkable rate, whilst others who are normal and fit are decreasing. It seems to me it is the duty of the State to get right down to the base and not to be content with any tinkering or constant readjustment which is no real remedy at all, and to say that those who are defective must be isolated. Those who are weak-minded, those who suffer from lunacy and are mentally defective, should not be allowed to propagate their kind. That is rot only so in the State's interest, but it is also so in the interests of the individual. Nothing can be more cruel than to allow defective parents to bring into the world those who are condemned to suffer either because of hereditary disease or of those hereditary mental and moral defects which unfit them to grapple with their circumstances.

These considerations take the Debate, I know, deeper down to some of those vital problems with which it is very difficult to deal, but other countries are grappling with them along those lines, and in many of the States of America they have passed laws which prevent the propagation of defectives. Whilst we are forced to use the machinery we have at hand and to perfect it so far as we can, still we should look further ahead and to the time when it will be possible to prevent these cases at their fountain head. This is one of the most important aspects of this problem, and deserves our careful consideration.

I listened with great interest this evening to the speech of my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, which was in his most inimitable manner. The House of Commons has probably seldom heard my right hon. Friend more completely contented with himself, his Department, and the world in general, or heard him pour such ridicule upon everybody else. If I may follow for a moment the remarks which he made, it appears to me that, while describing the Minority Report as obsolete—a Report which, as one hon. Member opposite very properly interposed is usually described as revolutionary—he managed apparently to reject both the Majority and Minority Reports of the Poor Law Commission and to commit in advance the Cabinet and His Majesty's Government to the maintenance of the status quo. That was how I understood him. It would be foolish, of course, to ask a Minister to declare in advance what may or may not be the policy of the Government upon matters of detail, but I think he was asked by the hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite what was his view of the unanimous Report of both the Majority and dissentient Minority of the Commission upon general mixed workhouses. There is not a dissentient note in the Report of the Commission upon that point. Again, both Reports, without condeming the admirable work which has been done by those bodies, recommend the complete abolition of the boards of guardians. The right hon. Gentleman, so far as I was able to read his policy from his incidental observations, entered into a defence of boards of guardians, not merely on account of the public-spirited work which they have done for so many years, but as being the authorities rather than any congested county or other council to carry out the work. If that is so, and he does not frankly accept the abolition of general mixed workhouses as recommended in both reports, it appears to me he has rejected not merely this expensive and, in his view, unworkable policy of the Minority Commissioners, but also the policy of the Majority Commissioners as well.

I noticed with interest that he argued at large against relief works. I am afraid his disorderly friends below the Gangway—and I include myself among the number—a little lost patience at certain times during those remarks. At this date, after all the instruction we have received, and we certainly—I say it with perfect frankness and sincerity—have received a great deal of instruction in these matters from my right hon. Friend himself, who speaks with peculiar knowledge, I do not know that anybody presumes to advocate what is generally called relief works. He properly called attention to the consensus of opinion among the Majority and Minority Commissioners against relief works. If he thought it worth while drawing attention to that, are we not perfectly entitled to argue, when the Majority and Minority Commissioners agree, not merely in condemnation, but in practical constructive policy, that they should also receive the sympathetic attention of the Government Department. The right hon. Gentleman was even controversially unfair to the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Steel-Maitland), who, as he properly said, was one of the very able investigators appointed by the Commission, and who, as I myself know, is certainly not a partisan in these matters, having maintained a proper, open, judicial, and statesmanlike mind. He was compelled to rise in his place and insist on interrupting my right hon. Friend when he was giving what I must describe as an absolute travesty of the hon. Gentleman's view. After all, he was trying to do what a great many other people in this country are trying to do as well, and that is to put an end to all the miserable sectional squables between the dissentient parties upon the Commission. As a very great Churchman with whom I had a conversation the other day said, it is a scandal and a shame that the Government of the day cannot find time, not to introduce a revolutionary measure, but to take what is best in both reports and frankly admit the case for legislation.

I was very much exercised by my right hon. Friend's language about this Bill which is to be introduced for Invalidity and Unemployment Insurance. I think nearly all of us in this House are supporters of such a scheme. My right hon. Friend put forward not merely the scheme which we associate with the name of the President of the Board of Trade, but also the invalidity scheme, which we associate with the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as though it were an alternative, and indeed, a final policy. I desire to say with all the strength of which I am capable that I do not believe any Poor Law reformer regards that invalidity scheme as anything like a final settlement. We therefore continue the demand in the words of the Resolution, and we shall not be satisfied if, when the Parliament Bill is out of the way, the Government do not apply themselves to the solution of these grave social problems.

If they continue to regard what has been done in the past as a satisfactory solution and maintain the status quo as against the two great capital recommendations of the Poor Law Commission, I believe, in the well-known words of the Foreign Secretary, it will be death, disaster, and something worse for the Liberal party.

It is perhaps necessary the House should see the point of view of a local administrator. It is all very well for Members to regard the head of a great Government Department as a suitable object for criticism, but it seems to me a great deal of the criticism arises from the fact that the right hon. Gentleman works at the Department, studies the facts, and has a most excellent memory as well as a good knowledge of the poor, got from a lifelong experience. I am not here to say he is perfection, or anything of that kind, but I am an admirer of a vigorous administrator, and, whatever may be said of the right hon. Gentleman, it has never been suggested that he is overawed by officials or that people can pull him about like a puppet on wires. I have never heard it suggested even by his enemies that there is some mysterious individual in the Department who calls the tune to which the right hon. Gentleman dances. I speak on this question with some degree of interest, because I happen to be at the present time a Poor Law guardian.

And, it being a Quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.

Belfast Corporation Bill

Bill read a second time, and committed.

Supply

Poor Law Administration

Postponed proceeding on Amendment to Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," which Amendment was to leave out from the word "That" to the end, in order to insert instead thereof the words "this House endorses the unanimous condemnation of the administration of the Poor Law contained in the Majority and Minority Reports of the recent Royal Commission, and is of opinion that the present administration of the Poor Law does not meet modern requirements, and demands the immediate attention of His Majesty's Government."

Debate resumed.

I was explaining to the House, when the discussion upon this Amendment was interrupted, that the standpoint of guardians, and especially rural guardians, is somewhat important. The Local Government Board, of course, is represented in various ways in this House. I do not care to clothe the position in any vigorous language, but although I have been in the Orient, I should never describe the President of the Local Government Board as an Oriental despot. I want to come to the question of outdoor administration, as viewed by those of us who are members of boards of guardians. My first experience in that position occurred twenty years ago, and my whole experience is that there has been a marked change for the better in the treatment which guardians receive from the institution at Whitehall. I remember well the first time I came up as representing a local authority in order to interview the Local Government Board in Whitehall. It was with regard to a loan for a considerable amount, and the administration at that time was such that, after a great deal of knocking about from pillar to post, I eventually settled this important question with some official of the Board in an attic while he was frying some fish over the fire. I came to London full of admiration, awe, and reverence for the Local Government Board, but when I went away I did not consider it was such a distinguished honour for a young man from a village to go to Whitehall. I will not go into the other side of the work of the Local Government Board. It was in those times difficult to get an answer to a communication, and to get a decision on an important point. Now there is a characteristic vigour about this department which does the President credit. You can get replies, you can get an intimation of the views of the Board very promptly. I think it is generally admitted, and the absence of criticism to-day rather proves it, that there has been a businesslike method introduced into the department for which local authorities in remote districts may be devoutly thankful.

There is a phrase in this Resolution which my hon. Friends below the Gangway have not ventured to particularise. I refer to the phrase "modern requirements." It is unusual, and I do not know whether the hon. Members on the Labour Benches can explain its meaning. It suggests that nowadays we are to treat an important question like this in some different way from the old method of treatment. I am not going to say that learning does not spread, or that discussion and the enlightenment resulting therefrom are not an advantage to every Government Department. But I am afraid that the phrase "modern requirements "may have a very different meaning to hon. Members on the benches below the Gangway and to hon. Members opposite. I personally cannot possibly make out what is meant by it. The speech to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Harcourt)—I am sorry he has not seen fit to remain in his place to hear an answer to it—did not come, in my opinion, with very good grace from these benches. At any rate, I do not hesitate to say so. I do not say that there should not be vigorous criticism, but to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman, in reply to the hon. Member for East Birmingham, made a travesty of the position was ludicrous to those who heard the speeches. Had it been so, I am sure the hon. Member for East Birmingham, who is capable of a certain amount of vigour, would have risen in his place and put the matter right. I should hope the hon. Member for Montrose will, on reflection, regret very much that he should have charged the right hon. Gentleman with making a travesty of his opponent's remarks. Neither can one fairly object to the right hon. Gentleman's pronouncement with regard to the insurance proposals of the Government. As the House is well aware, I am particularly interested in that subject. I do not see how the right hon. Gentleman could answer the vigorous criticism levelled against it unless he was allowed to state what was the full and comprehensive answer of the Government as to the conditions of poverty and unemployment.

The right hon. Gentleman was standing up for his Department, as he is entitled to do. It would take a great deal to persuade me that any Government Department is in a perfect position. I honour the right hon. Gentleman for doing what he did. He gave more or less a negative answer to the criticism. But when one is asked, "What are you going to do? What legislation are you going to bring in? Have you a heart and a head? Have you any activity? Why are you not running about in a hysterical way with a pocket full of Bills? Why are you not demanding the whole of the time of the House for the Local Government Board?" When questions of that kind are put forward I think the proper answer is that the Government are doing a great deal in various departments. I object to the criticism which was levelled against the right hon. Gentleman because he pinned himself to the status quo. The whole trend of his remarks was that every year he is at the head of the Local Government Board an advance is made, and it has certainly been a distinct advance, characterised by a lowering in the number of paupers and at the same time an improvement in the treatment of those who remain. It is difficult, in ordinary business, to effect a double reform at once, and this is a peculiar phenomenon to which I would draw the attention of hon. Members. This great lowering in the percentage of pauperism in this country is concurrent with an improvement in the attractiveness of their treatment. It is very important to remember that at the very time more money is being spent on the workhouse this should occur. Those who have been members of the board of guardians and of building committees will be able to appreciate this. The very first meeting I attended on a board of guardians was in the year 1891, and at that a contract was passed for new buildings to cost £30,000. I do not think that is at all exceptional. It is a characteristic of the whole area. These houses have been improved, improved accommodation has been given, there is an increase of cubic space for each inmate, the methods of treatment are more enlightened, the administration is better and better services have been brought into being. But while all that has been done still the percentage of pauperism has decreased. To call a state of things like that a status quo is I think out of the question, and I do not know even the meaning of the English or the Latin language if such a term can be used. I regret that observations of that character should come from this side of the House, and so far from associating myself with them, I have risen mainly in order to protest against them.

I will take this opportunity of referring to the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham, who spoke from the benches opposite. I would desire if he were in his place to thank him for a very enlightened speech, and it is a remarkable thing to me that an hon. Member should be able to make two such effective speeches as he made last night and again to-day. They show a research and a deep insight into this question which does the hon. Gentleman a great deal of credit and as a local administrator, I quite admit that my information has been added to, and I hope I shall be the better for it and go back to my work benefited by what I have heard in this House. In regard to the attitude of Socialists in the matter of relief works. I am old enough to know that there was a time, and not very many years ago, when the extreme Socialist party specially urged this policy. The demanded a large amount of money, and they pushed these relief works most vigorously. Appeals were made in Manchester to the Local Government Board by many prominent exponents of the Socialist faith who wanted to establish a model farm. A great many citizens and councillors and city dignitaries went out from time to time to see the experiments which were made, and the advanced people in Manchester whom I met in discussion and who had very remarkable political gifts and spent a great deal of time in political research, they had very great hopes indeed from these relief works. But nobody wanted to buy the vegetables they grew and there were so many complaints by the people as to the expense that eventually the whole thing ended in disaster and failure. I am not saying that as a reflection upon anybody, but I mention it for this reason, that the greatest business city in the world, with which I am proud to be associated, took this action, and I know that Manchester, whatever she may or may not be, is full of able business men, but they were not able to bring this policy forward successfully, although we learned something from it. I do not think it is fair, therefore, to brush it aside as if no one ever believed in it.

There was a time when advocates of this movement were clamouring to have it carried out. I have a great many Socialist friends with whom I have stayed in the country, and I have tried to take the most sympathetic view I can, but the more I saw of this development of life the more I concluded that there was no solution in their views for the benefit of humanity any more than there is for the happiness of humanity. The Socialistic settlements in this country have not been a conspicuous success, and I think they have no better chance of success than the poor relief works which have been proposed, but which must not be thrown over and treated as if no one ever did believe in them except one or two irresponsible people. We cannot forget that some people advocated these schemes emphatically a few years ago although now they are relegated to obscurity. With regard to the phrase "breaking up of the Poor Law," I think it is too strong a form of words, and I have not been able to see quite what is meant. I have had the advantage of private letters from and private conversations with a gentleman for whom I have the highest esteem referring to this matter—Mr. Sidney Webb—but I have never been able quite to gather the meaning of this term which has come to be used about the breaking up of the Poor Law. I gather that the phrase is identified to some extent, with the Minority Report of the recent Royal Commission, which is mentioned in his Resolution by the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Goldstone). What is meant by the breaking up of the Poor Law or the Poor Law system? I have listened very carefully to the Debate to-day, and I have not gathered from the discussion that any Member who spoke, with the exception of the representative of the Department, seemed to grasp fully the first essential principle of the present Poor Law which is now administered. I do not know whether hon. Gentlemen are aware that the first essential principle of our English Poor Law is the well being of the community, second to which is the welfare of the poor.

However great a question the relief of the poor is, a still greater question is the welfare of the entire community, and while I have never identified myself, and hope I never will, with the policy of the guardians whose sole object is to keep down the rates, still there is a little element of duty there and a little germ of truth. That country farmers simply look upon the rates and endeavour to keep them down is a matter of regret, and I have always openly endeavoured to get such men to take a more enlightened view. It has been my duty to act with my fellow guardians, and I am sure there is not one of them who does not want to do the right thing, but some of them are imbued a little more than I am with the necessity of keeping down the rates. That is part of the principle on which the English Poor Law is established as being for the general well-being of the community, and if this phrase "modern requirements" means that that whole principle is to disregarded, I venture, very respectfully, as a progressive man and a Radical, as a Radical in local administration which I hope I shall always remain, and in my individual capacity to protest against it. I venture to protest against putting aside the enormous heritage which we have received in the old Poor Law. There is no doubt, whatever you say about the Poor Law, it was a magnificent improvement on what had existed before. Would anyone like to go back to the time when the farmers took the labourers into the workhouse in the winter and took them out and put them on relief pay on the farms when the winter was over. Then the unit was changed, and the system as at present administered was established. These parishes were grouped, and you saw little workhouses in ruins or turned into barns and large workhouses in the centre of a district established in their place, and we saw an improvement which has since been maintained. The control, instead of being under the people in that particular parish, is over a group of parishes. It was regarded as a principle in the Union of which I was a member twenty years ago, that the chairman of the Out-Relief Committee for the time being should not belong to the township in which he administered the relief. We always had as chairman an outside guardian. That received encouragement from the Local Government Board, and does now. Their inspectors came down and approved of it, so that the person who gave relief should not have a personal bias in favour of some one who attended his own place of worship, or was associated with him in politics. He could be there, and bring his local knowledge to bear with the Committee, but the chairman always came from another township. Suggestions have been made to-day that this administration by local guardians was by interested men. The case was over-stated. There are many guardians with a very high conception of their duties. We all have sympathy with poverty and suffering. There are certain hon. Members with whom I disagree diametrically, but I hope the day will never come when I would suggest that they are not sympathetic to the poor, and will not turn a ready and willing ear to suggestions to alleviate suffering. We do not need to urge these points as if we have a monopoly of them. A speaker in this House, as he warms to his subject, is apt to think for the moment that the great heat which it generates in his heart and his bosom is peculiar to himself. I hope we shall endeavour to avoid that mistake. I give hon. Members credit wherever they are for having as much sympathy with the poor as I have. But I claim to have as much as any other Member.

I am taking the House through this administration which is challenged. I am not one of those who may be turned from their purpose by theories, books, or pamphlets. My knowledge upon this question was got by hard experience. I made sacrifices at a time of life when I ought to have been in business making money in going to meetings of guardians in the middle of the day, studying these Orders which came from the Local Government Board, and trying to follow out the local and Imperial administration of the Poor Law. I consider that a far better school for anyone who wishes to sit in this House than going to a University. I have made a particular study of the classification of the inmates. I know that hon. Members like the hon. Member (Mr. Lansbury) have a very different idea of the proper treatment inside a workhouse from what country guardians have. When the idea was first suggested that there should be classification, and that deserving inmates should be put by themselves and should have better treatment, I made it my business to visit workhouses where this was in operation. I can very well remember going to one at Macclesfield. This was twenty years ago, and there has been a great step in advance since then. We had not a President of the Local Government Board like the right hon. Gentleman. It was left entirely to the permanent staff, and I hope we shall not revert to the old days. This is the spectacle I saw. A man from the village called and sat down in the middle of these people. There was a nice blazing fire, and they all sat in different kinds of chairs hearing their old pal play the fiddle. This fiddler had been in the house and had not forgotten his old companions. You could not tell which were inmates and which were visitors. The last Socialistic meeting that I attended was in Regent's Park, and a member of the Social Democratic Federation suggested that old people in the workhouse now—old couples over sixty—under an enlightened Local Government Board were separated. These ideas are not brought forward here, because they would be severely dealt with, but they are used outside. I have repeatedly had to intervene in discussions in order to object to such a statement as that. To think that we have not passed that stage is alarming. What are the facts? They vary in almost every union, and they are different in a town union from a country union. In a town union you will have a large number of these old people. When the order came down, under this very administration which is challenged, from the Local Government Board that these old couples were to live together it immediately succeeded in large unions, but it did not succeed in small unions. It is a vitally important question to these old people. Perhaps they have failed to save money or their investments have gone wrong or something has disappointed them, but they are very often deserving people.

I doubt if there is a Member here who poses as an authority who knows why it failed in the small unions and was a success in the big ones. At that time my wife was a Poor Law guardian in a large union and I was a guardian in a small union. So I had an exceptional opportunity of judging of the two systems. The reason was this. In a large union there was a sufficient number of people over sixty who could form a sort of old man's club and an old woman's club because they could not be allowed to remain together as married couples and at the same time mix in the general workhouse. But when it came to a small union, where there was only one, or perhaps two, couples, the system broke down, and the people themselves petitioned not to be in these little cottages living as man and wife together, but to be separated, and to go into the larger house. That was a great disappointment to me. I had taken a large part in insisting that there should be little cottages detached in which the old people should live together, and I was deputed, perhaps in a jocular way, being a bachelor at that time, to introduce these married couples to their apartments. I refused to go unless the village doctor accompanied me, and we went together. We pointed out the sitting-room and the bedroom. They were entirely separate from everyone else, and were to make it their own little home, and wear their own clothing and so on. As we came away I noticed a sad look in the old man's face. The doctor said they were all right and comfortable, but I said I was afraid something was wrong. We went back, and I said to the old man. "You did not look very pleased at the sight of this little cottage. What was troubling you?" At first I could not get him to speak, then he mustered up courage and pointed to his wife, and said, "I have put up with her for forty years, and I thought I should have a bit of peace in my old age." That was another occasion on which the dreams of a youth engaged to be married were shattered. The moral I drew from that is that when you leave these theories and leave off reading books and poetry and come down to the stern work of administering the Poor Law your eyes are opened, and you have to be more or less prosaic and matter-of-fact.

Reference has been made to the administration of the Poor Law and the fact that there is a decreasing death rate. I do not admit the decrease in the death rate means all that it might be supposed to imply. To a certain extent it means improved local government and improved social conditions. But to some extent it means that feeble children who otherwise would die off when about six months old are enabled by special medical help to live until they are three, four, or five years of age. So far as the birth rate and the death rate are affected by means of that kind, it is necessary to give a little consideration to what is done in connection with the administration of public health. There is a great deal of encouragement in the lower death rate, but it does not mean so much as some hon. Members think. We could not have any more important subject than this under discussion, and I trust I have thrown some light on the actual administration. The bulk of the speaking we have heard to-day has not been directed to administration but to ideas which men have in regard to what they want to see incorporated in the law in future. It may be when you come to your constructive policy there will be a great deal of common action between myself as a Liberal and hon. Members below the Gangway who claim to be more advanced. I do not want a good case for constructive legislation to be spoiled by a little unfair criticism of what has taken place up to now. The House recognises what a vast improvement has taken place. The President of the Local Government Board is the only working man who has attained Cabinet rank, and although I have heard him criticised from time to time, I have never heard proper recognition of the fact that he has got there by brains and industry. I have heard very severe attacks made upon the right hon. Gentleman, and I do hope that hon. Members will at the same time be inclined to appreciate the good work he has done and to say a good word for him.

I am sure we have all been delighted with the speech of the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth). I am not so sure that he has not almost boxed the compass. I imagine that if there are any hon. Members present who had the intention of making set speeches, the whole of their notes might as well be thrown away after the speech of the hon. Member. I cannot say that we gained much knowledge from his speech. I was in doubt even as to his personal reminiscences with respect to the administration of the Poor Law. I understood that his wife was a member of one board of guardians, that he himself was a member of another, and that as years went on and certain reforms were introduced he was asked to accompany some old people to their new homes.

The hon. Member is inverting the order. I distinctly said that I was a single man when I was asked to accompany the old people, and that I insisted on the village doctor coming with me. After that I married a Poor Law guardian, and I hope that we both know this subject thoroughly.

I am glad I have given the hon. Member an opportunity of explaining the chronological order of events, because I gathered from his speech that he was married when he was asked to accompany the old people. We are discussing at present one of the most serious subjects that can engage the attention of the House. Questions in relation to the administration of the Poor Law bring this House into touch with the realities of life. After all we talk of the Empire, and gloat over the glories of the country and race to which we belong, but we are bound to confess that there is a serious social problem in the great poverty of vast masses of the people. In spite of all our advance in civilisation and our enormous strides in the production of wealth, the solution of that problem does not keep pace with our production of wealth. The hon. Member for East Northants pointed to the remarkable rapidity with which we can produce wealth. He stated that the sum total of the national income is 2,000 millions a year. When we think of these figures we conclude that this must be a great and powerful nation, but when we come to such a problem as we are discussing to-night we have to ask, what provision do we make not merely for old people who have used their whole vitality and youth in the occupations and duties of citizens, but also for able-bodied people who find it impossible to fit in in anything like a decent state in modern society, and even thousands of young children who by some misfortune or other are left stranded at the very entrance of life. There are some nations that deal with these problems in a more generous way than we. Reference was made this afternoon to the position of the children of a poor man when he is dead, and they are left entirely to be reared, comforted, and cared for by the widow. It seems to me, after all, that that is not a case for Poor Law administration at all. No one can choose in what state of society or part of the community he shall be born, and I take it for granted that child-life of the very poorest sections of the community must be of value to the community. I think that in some Continental countries the matter is dealt with in a better way than in this country.

I understand that in Hungary, backward as it is in its ordinary administration, and so far as wealth and power to create wealth are concerned, if a poor man dies and leaves a family, the duty of the State is immediately, not as a matter of Poor Law administration, but as a matter of the rights of a citizen, to take charge of the children, while the mother practically becomes, as it were, a pensioner of the State, and the State recognises that that is a position where the ordinary rules of prudence do not prevail. In the case of the mother who is left with a family belonging to the working population, with no prospect of being able to earn her living in any of the ordinary pursuits, whose duties are really to her children, if they are going to be reared as decent citizens, it is useless to talk to her about the effect it will have on the children if they are taken care of by the State. It is a moral certainty that if one could weigh up all the economic advantages and disadvantages the economic disadvantages are on the side of our present policy in allowing those little children very often to deteriorate, to be stunted in their youth, and prevented from enjoying the ordinary opportunities of ordinary civilised life. It is a disadvantage not merely to them as individuals, but to the State as a whole. I do not think that those are subjects that should be dealt with at all by the Poor Law.

9.0 P.M.

Passing to another matter, our Friend who has just spoken above the Gangway imagines that the Labour Members, those who belong to the same class as the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, never give him credit for the work which he does. The hon. Member makes a great mistake. I remember well one time in this House, I think about 1906, when the Opposition were attacking the right hon. Gentleman, and suggesting that he was not entitled to a rise of salary, the Labour Members were the very men who stood by him, not merely because he belonged to the same class as themselves, but that surely is no reason why, so long as our criticism is fair and just, we should not exercise it. There may have been occasions when we have got rather fiery and heated with one another, when we have thought that he ought to have done something which he did not think he ought to do, and just for the moment I daresay there have been heated occasions of that description, but on the whole the hon Member can take it for granted that we are delighted to see in the Cabinet a man belonging to the class to which we belong, and that it is our object to get in many more, and, before we have done, in fact we hope to see the time when there will be no other Members of the Cabinet except the class to which we belong. I do not know whether the hon. Member understands that that is our policy, and that it is only a matter of regret to us that he is the only Member of our class in the Cabinet, and that there is no jealousy and no suspicion of him because of the position he occupies. Surely the right hon. Gentleman himself launches out sometimes against us—in fact, I think he counters every one of our points, perhaps twice over, even so far as violence is concerned, and sometimes I am afraid he even goes out of his way to try to produce a scrap when one is not wanted.

But let that be as it may, I only make those observations because I have the kindest possible feelings towards the right hon. Gentleman. At the same time we do think that there are things which he might have done which he has not done. The greatest friend of the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared to say that. In fact, I have heard, I believe, since I have been a Member of this House, more violent criticism and innuendoes directed against the right hon. Gentleman from the ordinary thick - and - thin supporters of the Liberal Government than from these Benches; only we have a rough-and-ready way of stating our opinions, whereas other people generally slyly hint them to one another, and do much more real damage than any open criticism such as we pass here from time to time. Coming to the statement in his speech to-night as to the old age pensions being a solution of part of the poverty problem, they do deal with one phase of it, especially in its later development, whereby the pauper disqualification was removed. In that way we have dealt with one small branch of the subject of Poor Law administration, but to pretend that we have dealt with the question of Poor Law administration by introducing old age pensions is of course utterly to mistake the true questions that are involved in this and other discussion. Even take the policy of the present Government with reference, say, to Invalidity, Sickness, and Unemployment Insurance—the most that it will do will be to mitigate the difficulties of the younger portion of our industrial population. For a considerable time that is all that it could do. What we are discussing is an entirely different question, which may in time sap, as it were, the spring from which our Poor Law population comes. The policy of the Government with reference to a general system of Insurance, Old Age Pensions, and matters of that kind may gradually sap the spring from which comes the present pauper population, but that is no solution of the pauper problem as presented to us to-day. This policy can have no effect at least for this and the next generation, and the pauper problem is the problem we have to deal with in some fashion or other. The question you have to consider is whether you are dealing with it in the best way at the present time. The hon. Member above the Gangway who has just spoken, seems to have a personal knowledge of the question he was debating, and I am certain that his experience will tell him that, if we could go back upon the subject, there is a much better way of dealing with this problem than that which we are adopting to-day. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Burns) has referred to the immensely increased cost per head of the population in respect of the different grades and classes to be dealt with—either in the infirmaries, or the children in the pauper schools, or the actual workhouse population. And he called attention to this increased cost per head of the population to show that the State, after all, deals in a most luxurious manner with this vast problem.

But that proves nothing. As a matter of fact, we know that the greater proportion of this increased cost goes to officialdom, to maintain palatial buildings, and to almost everything except defray the cost of the actual keep of the pauper himself. Therefore, to use figures of that description only tends to deceive people, though I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman is deceiving himself, because knowing, as he does, the subject, he could not be deceived by figures of that kind. There are problems in connection with this matter which must be dealt with in a business way, though they are most difficult of solution, I admit. For myself, I have never had any connection of any kind with the Poor Law, except once in my life, and that gave me a lesson which I have never forgotten as to the difficulty of the vagabond or tramp question. Men used to tramping all over the country very often go to the workhouse because they cannot live outside in all states of the weather. Men who, by want of work or misfortune, are compelled to enter the workhouse are treated just the same as these vagabonds; they have to break stones and pick oakum just like the tramps.

There may be favourable exceptions, but I am speaking of the general rule. The labour test is another question to which I wish to call attention. I will give you the one experience I had. When I was a young lad about twelve years of age I had a great idea of joining the Navy. I was in Lancashire at that time, and I ran away from my village to Southampton with the object of getting on board the old guardship "Hector." I have the papers still—I was 5 ft. 7¾ ins.—but my poor old mother would not sign those papers, though I had passed the doctor and everything was ready for my becoming a seaman. I daresay I would have been a much better man than I am now if I had become a seaman. [An HON. MEMBER: "Perhaps an admiral."] At any rate, I failed in my object, and one night I was absolutely homeless and outcast, and in walking along the pavement I fell down, and the blow rendered me insensible. When I recovered I found myself in the police station at Bargate, Southampton. An officer was standing over me. There was a lovely fire, and everything was warm and comfortable. I was examined by a doctor, and it was decided that I was to go to the casual ward. That was the only time I was ever in the casual ward or had anything to do directly with the Poor Law. The circumstances come to my memory just as if they occurred yesterday. I daresay I could go to every place in Southampton to which I went at that time, and I could mark out the place where I slept. I was taken to a place where there were others. They threw a blanket in to me, and they took away my clothes, just as they took away the clothes of the others.

In the morning my clothes were thrown back to me again, after I had passed through a bitter cold night, my teeth chattering all the time. A pound or two of oakum was thrown to each of us to pick. In the ward there were workmen, labourers, and even mechanics, who had got stranded. They were attracted to Southampton by the shipbuilding yards. These men, as well as myself, were set to pick the oakum, and we found that it was utterly impossible, at least it was so in my case, to do the work. I saw navvies, carpenters, and mechanics of all descriptions trying to do this oakum picking, and they utterly failed. But there came along a regular old cadger who took out of the little bag which he carried a well-worn hook. This he stuck into one of the timbers at the corner of his bed, and then he drew the oakum backwards and forwards over this hook, and in five minutes he did what would have taken one of these workmen three hours to do. And this is called a labour test! Of course, the thing was utterly absurd. A workman would have pulled his hands to pieces trying to do it, and he would have utterly failed; yet the cadger, who had never done a day's work, got through it in five minutes. I do not know whether a Committee sat on my case or not, but what they did was to take the oakum away, because I could not do the task. Eventually I was set to scrubbing the floors, and that is the only connection I ever had, directly, with Poor Law authorities. But there you have an illustration of the utter futility of these labour tests, in addition to which you are treating a workman who finds himself stranded exactly as you would treat an old cadger who never does anything but go from town to town, and who would think it dishonourable to do a day's work. Yes; it is a surprising thing; just as Noble Lords or Gentlemen well placed in this House would consider it derogatory to themselves to do an honest day's actual manual work, so do these old tramps and cadgers consider it absolutely dishonourable and undignified to do a day's work. The fact is that though they are at the extreme ends of the social scale, they belong absolutely to the same class. Therefore, I say there cannot be the slightest doubt that there are practical problems attaching to this subject with which it is very difficult to deal. The hon. Member who spoke last derided the question of classification. I think myself that my little experience shows that careful classification of those men and people who are forced within the pale of the Poor Law is one of the first necessities of proper administration. To deal with a man who has been struck down by poverty, or by sickness, or by anything of that kind, who finds himself for the first time among the submerged tenth, to deal with such a man or person to the roughest way that you would deal with the ordinary fellow who has never taken any care of himself, or never attempted to maintain himself in anything like decency, to treat those men absolutely alike in cut-and-dried fashion, in the way that is done at present is not proper administration of the Poor Law at all. The hon. Member who was speaking above the Gangway some time ago wanted to know what was this "ridiculous" phrase in this Motion of the Labour Members asking that the administration should now be in accordance with modern requirements. "What do you mean," he says, "by modern requirements"? What we mean is this: the Poor Law was always looked upon and thought to be a criminal agency. The fact that you deprive a man who is once a pauper of citizen rights shows clearly that you think there is something criminal in it. I do not know indeed whether the time for excluding a pauper from citizenship is not even greater than in the case of a man who has served imprisonment with hard labour. I believe it is. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) says that a criminal does not lose his vote only when he is in prison. It appears therefore that the poor man is a greater criminal in the eyes of the Poor Law than the actual criminal. Therefore what we mean by the term, on which the hon. Gentleman above the Gangway passed so much criticism, that we want the administration to be in accordance with modern requirements is that we suggest that the conscience of the nation has got beyond the stage of treating the poor man as a criminal. We suggest that there are plenty of poor men who are honourable men, and who are only poor because the circumstances are such, and modern society is based on such principles as to make it utterly impossible that there can always be a position for every citizen in the State.

Recognising that after all the circumstances are so many over which a citizen has no control that may plunge him, as it were, within the pauper ranks at any time, and recognising that that need not necessarily be any fault of his own, we think there ought to be a more humane administration of the Poor Law, and that there-ought to be some attempt to hold the man up, and to prevent him from falling too low, so that he may have the stamina, and dignity, and personal respect, still left to enable him to get over his temporary difficulty. I understand that even to-day a poor man cannot get relief unless he is destitute, and that a committee goes round to see what the home of the man is like. If there are a few pictures or a few family gods that could be sold or got rid of, then relief cannot be given until they are disposed of, and until the home is practically broken up. That is administration in many of the Poor Law districts at present. That is not a humane system. That is a system to which I am sure the party to which the hon. Member above the Gangway belongs gives no sanction whatever.

Therefore, when the President of the Local Government Board, the right hon. Gentleman who has this matter in hand, takes up a completely negative position, and says that beyond the mere social policy of the Government, relating to pensions, relating to insurance, all good and in the right direction, and all tending towards sapping the spring from which the pauper population comes, but still leaving these vital questions of Poor Law administration untouched, when he takes up a negative position regarding matters of this description, and says that there is no immediate hurry in matters which, after all, are utterly foreign to the stage at which the conscience of the Nation has arrived, then we are entitled to criticise in a friendly and every possible way. Nobody is more delighted than I am to see the right hon. Gentleman in his position, or in any higher position. No one has better ability for it. So far as I am concerned, that is my own personal opinion. Because I know he is capable, and the mere fact that I know he is capable is all the more reason why I should criticise him when I do not think he is using those capabilities. Therefore I think this discussion has been a most useful discussion. We talk about big navies, we talk about armies, we talk about our Empire, and about everything under the sun, but we give mighty little attention to the condition of the submerged tenth, the bottom dog; and the presence of the Labour Members in this House should warrant that at last the bottom dog should have a look in.

In common with those who listened to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, I was pleased to hear the very satisfactory figures which he gave with regard to the decrease which has taken place in poverty during the last few years. I notice that a very remarkable reduction has taken place in the sum given in outdoor relief. That is very pleasant from one standpoint, but there is another standpoint, from which some doubt may be cast on the value of the figures given. I would like to know whether that is due to pressure from the central authority or greater stringency in the administration of outdoor relief by the boards of guardians. I see that the right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. My reason at all for raising the point is that I am given to understand that in my own Division it has been found impossible for any person who resides with another person to obtain relief unless it is proved that it is a case of actual destitution. Let me give an instance. Assume that an old woman is residing with her son-in-law, who is under no obligation whatever to maintain her. She is refused outdoor relief unless she is actually compelled by her son-in-law to leave his premises. In other words, the man's natural feeling to treat his wife's relatives well, with the pressure of public opinion, is being used to compel him to perform a duty which the Legislature never enforced on him. I am afraid the reduction in the amount of outdoor relief is not a thing on which the House can congratulate the right hon. Gentleman if that is one of the methods by which the reduction is obtained. I was very pleased to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that one of the largest causes of poverty in this country is ill-health. I am very glad to have the right hon. Gentleman's authority for the statement, because one of the real difficulties with which we have had to contend in talking about the improvement of the social condition of the people is the fact that poverty has always been attributed to drink. At last we have the admission of the greatest authority in the country that one of the chief factors in the present deplorable condition of the poor is neither their habits, nor anything for which they are responsible, but ill-health.

I said quite clearly that thirty per cent. of the pauperism, and fifty per cent. of its cost were due to sickness. There is a great deal of difference between that and the statement that poverty is caused by ill-health.

What I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say—I have no desire to misrepresent him—was that one-third of the amount expended in relief in this country was due to ill-health. May I suggest another serious matter which has a very important bearing on the statement made by the right, hon. Gentleman? I refer to the results which have been published of the medical examination of school children. It is a most deplorable and amazing thing that even in a rural county like the one I represent, the medical officer of health has reported that from eight per cent. to ten per cent. of the children in the schools are suffering from adenoids, or some growth in the throat which affects their physical and moral well-being, and which ultimately brings them to that class of sick people who are bound sooner or later to become dependent on the Poor Law. A good deal has been said in the course of the discussion as to the effect upon poverty of Labour Exchanges and similar provisions which are being made and will be made by the Government. After all, in addition to ill-health, unemployment is responsible for a good deal not only of the casual poverty, but of the development of that dependent spirit which marks a large number of people who ultimately become dependent upon the Poor Law. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, as President of the Local Government Board, he cannot himself bring pressure to bear on local authorities in regard to those public works which, not being essential in one particular year, can be and should be postponed until such time when trade is not what it might otherwise be.

I should not have intervened but for the observations of the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth), who referred at some length to the position which we assume towards the President of the Local Government Board in our annual endeavour to improve not merely the administration of the Poor Law, but the laws themselves. He referred two or three times to what he called our unfairness. I did not hear the whole of the speeches delivered by the mover and the seconder of the Resolution, but I heard the right hon. Gentleman's comments, and I recollect that he distinctly complimented the speakers upon the fairness and the excellence of their speeches. I ask the House therefore to conclude that so far as those addresses are concerned they have not indicated any spirit or attitude of unfairness towards the right hon. Gentleman.

The hon. Member does me an injustice. I never suggested that the Labour Members were unfair. I was referring to the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. R. Harcourt). I thought it unfair that criticism such as he made should come from the Liberal Benches.

I beg the hon. Member's pardon if I misunderstood the quarter to which he directed his complaint. I wish now to refer to his criticisms upon the terms of the Resolution. The Resolution contains two points. First, it refers to the unanimous condemnation of the admisitration of the Poor Law, as expressed by both Reports of the Royal Commission. Surely those reports are a good enough foundation upon which to build criticisms in this House. The other point of the Resolution is a declaration that the present administration does not meet modern requirements and demands. The hon. Member in his speech went far to sustain and justify that part of the Resolution. He referred at some length—and this is mainly why I have risen—to the action of those whom he classes as the Socialists in Manchester. So far as Socialist opinion in Manchester or in the country may be represented in this House by those with whom I am associated, I can say unhesitatingly that the Socialists were not in way responsible for either the initiation or the conclusion of the particular relief work experiment to which the hon. Member refers. There was in Manchester at the time that experiment was instituted great clamour, because there was great poverty and great distress. We had in this House and in the country appealed for measures that would permanently remedy those conditions. The local authorities, acting, as they frequently do, in a state of panic, in the hope of relieving the distress to some extent began this relief colony. We have repeatedly declared that we could not accept relief colonies, whether large or small, as any permanent contribution to a settlement of these difficulties. But naturally, when poverty is so great and suffering so keen, even Socialists will welcome any means of giving relief to the poor. The immediate need of a hungry man is food. Therefore, whilst pressing for better plans and measures, we did, of course, encourage men to seek an opportunity of working on the particular relief colony referred to. The being driven by force of circumstances to the acceptance of that form of merely temporary relief should not and does not justify any Member declaring that at one time we have advocated relief works as a remedy for these difficulties, and that now we turn round and say that we are not in favour of those measures at all.

My complaint of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman this evening may be summed up in a sentence. It is that we are expected to accept the existing situation, controlled and managed by himself, as being ample for existing needs and requirements. That, in a word, everything is as good as well could be.

I ask those who heard that dissent to refresh their memory tomorrow by reading the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. They will, I think, come to the conclusion that I have formed, that in his opinion there is little or no need for legislation bearing directly upon the existing Poor Law system. He has to-day poured scorn and contempt upon these several proposals which are made for altering the law, and so far as the law can be administered we are expected to regard the existing administration as the highest level of perfection that can be obtained. The right hon. Gentleman revelled in facts during the course of his speech, though if I may take the liberty of saying so, I should say that many of them were rather figures than facts. The outstanding fact is that you cannot always prove a fact by the mere process of using statistics. Six hundred million pounds, said the right hon. Gentleman, have been spent by this country in Poor Law administration and cognate institutions since 1834. Well, we have reached this conclusion that the millions which are now annually spent can be better spent; that many of the proposals in these two Reports could, if embodied in law, not merely relieve poverty, but prevent it. They would go very far towards the prevention of what the right hon Gentleman has himself pointed out to the country quite recently, that the 600,000 persons who are in receipt of any form of Poor Law relief are mainly women and children who have been driven to the poor house because they have lost their bread-winner. I put it to the House that the country is in need of legislation which will give to those who have lost their bread-winner some prospect of a better fate than even the most polished department of any modern workhouse can. For these reasons we feel that the House should gladly welcome such a Resolution as this, which would pledge the House to the early acceptance of legislation which would give any man at the head of the right hon. Gentleman's Department even fuller powers for the more efficient administration of the Poor Law.

I suppose, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, speeches make different impressions upon different persons. I confess I myself did not receive quite the sort of impression which the hon. Gentleman who has last spoken received from the speech of the President of the Local Government Board. The right hon. Gentleman spoke, as usual, with his unquenchable optimism, of the progress which is being made, and indeed I think it is satisfactory whatever view we take in respect of future legislation and more enlightened administration on the question of the Poor Law—I advocate that strongly—to mark that a certain amount of progress has been made. Certainly in my own Constituency the reduction of pauperism which has resulted from the working of old age pensions has already effected a most welcome reduction of the rates. I imagine that has happened all over the country. But to recognise that an advance has been made does not prevent us from desiring further advance. I think it would be quite unfair to infer from the speech which we listened to earlier in the evening that it was the expression of the doctrine that "all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds." But surely the fact that advance has been made is the best encouragement to try and make a further advance. I am quite certain that anybody who listened carefully to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman would feel that he and the Government are trying, and are fully determined, to make further progress along the lines on which already they have advanced so satisfactorily.

I noticed that the hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench a couple of hours ago thought that it was just as well to pick up a little party capital from the delay of the Government in dealing with the Reports of the Royal Commission. I suppose we cannot grudge him that, but I think if we began to rack our memories we can easily think of plenty of Reports of Royal Commissions in the days of the late Government which are there still waiting for statutory enactment. I suppose it is not invariably the case that every Government at once transforms Reports of these Royal Commissions into legislative enactment. Unfortunately, the glut of the Parliamentary machine is too great. I suppose there is—well, one cannot say how many years work—perhaps at least about ten years' work already cut and dried, before us, awaiting Parliamentary enactment. There are many problems awaiting legislative solution. They crowd upon us. So long as this House tries to deal with all problems of Imperial import and at the same time the intimate details of social legislation, so long we shall have delay and party recrimination as to which party is responsible for the delay, when in reality the truth of the matter is that this House is unequal to getting through its Imperial duties on the one hand, and the duties of social and industrial legislation on the other. I believe that is one of the reasons why we do not get on in the way in which we are really anxious to make further progress. I was rather glad, if I may be allowed to say so, to notice the interpolation which the President of the Local Government Board made just recently in the Debate when the hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvonshire (Mr. Ellis Davies) was speaking, and when he treated the speech of the right hon. Gentleman as a final dissipation of the doctrine that drink had anything to do with our troubles.

I said that the right hon. Gentleman had, on the authority of his position, stated that about one-third of the expenditure of the Poor Law was due to ill-health, and to that extent he had done away with the implication that poverty was always the result of drink.

The hon. Member misrepresents me. I said that 50 per cent. of the cost of pauperism was due to sickness, and that 30 per cent. of the pauperism was due to sickness. To that I stand.

I should be the last person in the world to misrepresent the hon. Member. I think it is always difficult in these complex problems of social reform depending upon a plurality of causes, to state the exact cause. I do not think it is worth while at this time of the day to go into the questions as to whether pauperism is the cause of drink, or drink is the cause of pauperism. That is the problem upon which we have expressed our opinion many times in the past. Even on the facts stated, that 30 per cent. of our pauperism is due to sickness, and 50 per cent. of its cost; still, I begin to ask how much sickness is due to drink? Some portion of the sickness is due to drink. Is there anybody who will get up and say, allowing for the influence of social environment upon the individual and for defect of character, that in dealing with the problem of pauperism the influence of drink is, in the other 70 per cent., one that can be left out of sight? I think it would be idle sentimentalism to ignore that. I do not wish to overrate it, and I do not wish to say for a moment that pauperism is due entirely to it, but I say it is a great factor there. I believe this complex problem is due to many causes at once, and you must deal with it on many lines. You must attack the influence of drink upon pauperism at the same time as you deal with other causes, and, as you attempt to remedy the evil of social environment which also leads to pauperism and to the troubles which we are discussing. Whether it is 14 per cent. of pauperism that is directly caused by drink, as Sir Charles Booth puts it, or whether it is a higher figure as other investigators put it, I say whatever be the statistical figure you finally come down to this that every investigator puts it at a certain percentage, and you must not leave that out of account, and administrators and legislators will fail to grapple with the problem unless they bear in mind and admit it, as I trust the Government will when dealing with the problem by legislation.

There is only one other branch of this question with which I should like to deal to-night. It seems to me that one of the most pressing points upon which immediate action might be taken, whether administrative or legislative, is to be seen in the problem of dealing with the feeble-minded. I doubt if you can carry out by any one single measure the great and wide-sweeping reform recommended by the Reports of the Poor Law Commission. The problem of taking mentally defective persons and those of unsound mind out of the Poor Law is one of the most urgent, and is one upon which immediate action might well be taken. I suppose some steps have been taken in that direction, but it is a very grave problem at the present time. Work-houses in the metropolis are visited by the Lunacy Commissioners once a year, and in the smaller workhouses throughout the country there are triennial visits. I think I am right in saying that these visits are never carried through without there being discovered some persons in the workhouses who ought to be certified as insane. Beside that, as we all know, there is a great number of the inmates—12 per cent. in the urban districts and 18 per cent. in the rural districts—who cannot be certified as insane, but are mentally defective. I think that is a fact that ought to be borne in mind, and so far as that can be dealt with by administration it ought to be dealt with at once.

The question cannot be fully dealt with without legislation. I trust that the Report of the Commission on the Control of the Feeble-Minded may be taken into consideration, difficult as it is. That is one of the great forward steps which is immediately possible. It is only a question of getting the necessary time which is so difficult to allot under the present working of Parliament. But if we could get a scheme formulated and put into a Bill and carried through it would be the greatest possible advantage. The existence of the insane and mentally defective persons in the workhouses is a cause of great evils. It is bad enough for the people themselves who are mentally defective. They do not get the proper treatment. No one says they are treated unkindly—I believe they are treated with kindness and considera- tion—but they do not get the treatment and care they would get in proper institutions. It is bad enough for them, but it is equally bad and unfortunate for the other inmates of the institution who have to live with them. You may not get many cases like the one mentioned in the Report of the Royal Commission where a feebleminded woman was set to look after a baby and proceeded to wash it in boiling water, after which it died. Such cases, of course, may happen, but surely it is unsatisfactory enough where we keep, subject to the stigma of pauperism, those not deserving to fall under that stigma in any way, and who are paupers for no other cause except their mental defect, which is a misfortune which cannot in any way be attributed to their own fault.

I trust that two things will be done. In the first place that boards of guardians throughout the country districts will be given the power to combine for this purpose. In the Metropolis they have financial powers to deal with the problem by combination. I know the Local Government Board in the case of Birmingham did sanction combination with other local authorities, and again later on in the case of Croydon they gave similar assent to combine in dealing with the problem of the feeble-minded. Pending legislation, such powers ought to be given to guardians to take steps by means of combination to deal with this grave and urgent problem. And, secondly, I would most heartily urge, although it is now the third year in which nothing has been done since the Report of the Commission on the Feeble-Minded, that some further steps may be taken by means of legislation to deal with the problem.

10.0 P.M.

I think it is admitted on all sides of the House that the subject under discussion is deserving of the attention of every hon. Member of this House. The hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth) asked what was the meaning of the term "modern requirements." I think the hon. Member for North-East Manchester (Mr. Clynes) gave a very intelligent and effective answer to that inquiry. May I supplement my hon. Friend's answer by suggesting to the House that there is probably no subject before the country to-day that has received such a pronounced expression of opinion from so many representative men and women of all schools of political thought and opinion in the direction of a change as that appertaining to the question of Poor Law administration. The President of the Local Government Board has made quite a characteristic speech this evening I do not think any hon. Member was surprised at the character of that speech. The right hon. Gentleman was at very great pains to emphasise that he at least claimed to speak not only with authority but also that in speaking that he dealt with facts. May I suggest that in the facts which he submitted to the House and what he said from a statistical standpoint were not in the least revelant to the question at issue. I find that the question as to whether we had gone forward or backward in the domain of Poor Law administration is not raised in the Resolution moved by my hon. Friend. The point raised is that the Royal Commission, both in the Minority and Majority Report, are unanimous on one point, and that is that our present Poor Law administration is not only defective but needs immediate reconstruction. I suggest that we are entitled to expect that the right hon. Gentleman representing the Government on this question would have given us something more than a negative reply. The figures which he quoted setting forth the diminution in the amount of money paid for outdoor relief and the number of recipients of relief does not materially touch the point at issue. May I submit that this is not conclusive evidence as to progress having been made in that particular Department. I address this House as a Poor Law guardian with some experience. For seventeen years I was a member of the board of guardians in my own district, occupying an official position, and therefore I can speak with authority and practical knowledge in support of the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Carmarthenshire (Mr. Ellis Davies) who pointed out that at least part of the diminution in the expenditure upon outdoor relief and the number of recipients of Poor Law relief is due to a policy which is not humane, and not in harmony with the earlier traditions of the Local Government Board. The hon. Member for Carmarthenshire stated that he was informed that in his own district the policy of the Local Government Board was that in the case of a mother-in-law and a father-in-law staying with a son-in-law, the guardians were not allowed to give outdoor relief because the son-in-law who had no legal liability towards the maintenance of his wife's mother unless there was destitution. The Poor Law guardians in that immediate district took up the position that they were not allowed to give Poor Law relief. I submit that that is not a wise policy, and it is not a progressive policy in accordance with the position of the earlier occupants of the position of President of the Local Government Board. I dissent from that line of policy. I hope that one of the results of the discussion on this question to-day will be to induce the President of the Local Government Board to relax the line of policy which undoubtedly has been adopted not only in such cases as mothers-in-law and fathers-in-law staying with those upon whom they have no legal claim for maintenance, but, generally speaking, the line adopted for that there is to be destitution before Poor Law relief can be given.

The right hon. Gentleman gave a quotation from Lord George Hamilton who was chairman of that Royal Commission. Surely it is not too much to expect the Government to respond not only to the unanimous opinion of the Majority and Minority Commissioners, but also to public opinion in the country and to forthwith attempt to do something on the lines of reconstruction. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the social legislation of the Government and made some little effort—I believe it is a pleasing experience for the right hon. Gentleman—to have a tilt at the Members who sit on the Labour benches. I think I am entitled to say that the Members who sit on these benches have been among the most loyal and energetic Members of this House, not only in this, but also in previous Parliaments', in supporting any effort of the Government in the direction of social legislation. We ask the Government not to pat itself, as it were, on the back in that self-righteous attitude which I fear has been adopted to-day, but to recognise that, notwithstanding all the improvements which have taken place, and which we all welcome, the present and actual conditions of the unfortunate poor in this country are such that in many cases their lives are one tragedy from the cradle to the grave. Surely there can be no question that our present system of Poor Law administration does not tend to add to moral dignity, but subtracts and detracts from all that is best in our womanhood as well as our manhood. We on these benches plead with the Government to respond to public opinion as endorsed in the findings of the Majority and Minority Reports of the Poor Law Commission and to move in the future in the direction of prevention, rather than of remedial measures.

I find myself in somewhat of a difficulty in trying to understand the practical application of the Resolution. If it has been moved merely as a means of discussing the whole question of Poor Law administration, I can understand its object, because it has-given many hon. Members an opportunity of expressing views, and useful views, which may be of value in the future, but if it is intended to carry it to a vote I am bound to look at it from its practical aspect and to see what that vote would mean if it were carried. Personally, I have the greatest sympathy with most of what has been said to-night with regard to Poor Law Administration, and, if the Resolution had confined itself to one or two particular aspects of administration under the Local Government Board, asking them to undertake work which they could undertake without legislation, then I could have understood its practical aspect, but it goes altogether beyond that. It comprises—and we may possibly agree—a complete condemnation of the administration of the Poor Law, and that, as the hon. Member who has just sat down said, means complete reconstruction. That cannot be brought about by the action of a particular Department. It can only be brought about by very wide legislation. Consequently, what this Resolution asks the Government to do is not to alter some specific matter of administration, but to undertake wide and effective legislation. The effective part of the Resolution is in the last words, which demand "the immediate attention of His Majesty's Government." If it demands the immediate attention of His Majesty's Government in the direction of legislation, it is an object with which I have a great deal of sympathy, but how is it to be accomplished? We have definite work to do, and we have been sent here to do it. We are engaged in a great measure which the hon. Gentleman who proposed the Resolution, like myself, is deeply anxious to get through. One remark made by an hon. Member below the Gangway would almost seem to show a dsire to get rid of the Parliament Bill altogether in order that we might devote our attention to this particular object; but I do not think he meant that. It seems to me it would be the necessary effect of carrying this Resolution, because the Government could not give that immediate attention to the whole of the aspects covered by the Resolution unless they introduced legislation of a very far-reaching character indeed, and that would not only have the effect of doing away with the Parliament Bill, but also of doing away with the proposed legislation in regard to insurance, which we are promised very shortly.

I do not know that I rightly guaged what the President of the Local Government Board presaged, and whether we are to have one Bill introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer or two Bills, one introduced by the President of the Board of Trade in regard to unemployment, and the other by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to the scheme to deal with invalidity. Whatever it may be, whether by two Bills, or whether by one Bill, I regard that legislation as of very vital importance, and I regard it too as a great instalment towards facing the whole question of the administration of our Poor Laws. I do not intend to vote for any Resolution which may have the effect of interfering with that, and, consequently, when we really come to face the whole question, apart from the particular aspect of administration, I feel we are bound to look at the actual facts to see what is possible during the present session, and the one to follow. When I consider that I am bound also to take into consideration what the Government have done, are doing, and have promised to do. They have already provided Old Age Pensions, they have provided a Trades Disputes Board, they have given us Labour Exchanges, and they are going to do something in the direction of insurance against unemployment and invalidity. When these matters are accomplished the problem we shall have to face in regard to the Poor Law will prove to be an entirely different problem. It seems to me that these are instalments in the very direction of facing one of the biggest problems any nation has been called upon to attempt to solve. We all know the optimistic character of the President of the Local Government Board. It is an exceedingly good

Division No. 189.]

AYES.

[10.20 p.m.

Agnew, Sir George WilliamBooth, Frederick HandelChapple, Dr. William Allen
Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.Brigg, Sir JohnClough, William
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Brocklehurst, William B.Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Brunner, John F. L.Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeBryce, John AnnanDavies, Ellis William (Eifion)
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)Burns, Rt. Hon. JohnDavies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Barry, Redmond J. (Tyrone, N.)Burt, Rt. Hon. ThomasDevlin, Joseph
Beauchamp, EdwardCawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-shire)
Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W.Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

thing in a world where so much pessimism prevails. It helps to encourage rather than to deter, but if I thought the right hon. Gentleman, by his optimistic ways, wanted to avoid doing the things which many of us desire eventually to be accomplished, I should greatly regret it. Seeing, however, that he is a member of a Government which has done so much in this direction, which is still doing more, and which promises more, it does seem to me that instead of merely criticising we should attempt to help matters forward by encouraging and stimulating.

Therefore had this Resolution been confined to criticisms of certain specific acts of administration, if it had sought to tell the Local Government Board that something it had done was wrong, and that it should have done something else, it might have had serious consideration. But when it takes this particular aspect of the whole disposal of the Minority and Majority Reports which involves widespread and far-reaching legislation, it is such a large order as to be absolutely impracticable to be done in the present Session. I would ask what is meant by the expression: "demands the immediate attention of the Government." If it merely means immediate consideration then the resolution goes far beyond the intention of the Mover, but if it means demanding the alteration of an administration which is condemned by the Majority and Minority Reports I say the only way to carry that out is to destroy the very things we are now engaged upon, and which we have been sent here to perform. So from a practical standpoint, although I have great sympathy with what I believe is at the back of the Amendment, I, for one, while I am glad it has been moved and fully discussed, cannot see how any practical result can follow from forcing it to a division, and if it is so forced, I shall be compelled, very reluctantly, to vote against it.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 107; Noes, 48.

Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master ofLambert, George (Devon, S. Molton)Reddy, Michael
Elverston, HaroldLambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Fell, ArthurLevy, Sir MauriceRobertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace EdwardLewis, John HerbertRose, Sir Charles Day
Fitzgibbon, JohnLough, Rt. Hon. ThomasSamuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
France, Gerald AshburnerLow, Sir Frederick (Norwich)Seely, Col., Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Frewen, MoretonLundon, ThomasSimon, Sir John Allsebrook
Gelder, Sir William AlfredLyell, Charles HenrySmyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)
Griffith, Ellis Jones (Anglesey)Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Strachey, Sir Edward
Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)M'Callum, John M.Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Guinness, Hon. Waiter EdwardM'Micking, Major CilbertToulmin, George
Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)Manfield, HarryTrevelyan, Charles Philips
Hackett, JohnMeehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)Verney, Sir Harry
Havelock-Allan, Sir HenryMiddlebrook, WilliamWard, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Haworth, Arthur A.Millar, James DuncanWarner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Hinds, JohnMolteno, Percy AlportWatt, Henry A.
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Morgan, George HayWedgwood, Josiah C.
Holt, Richard DurningMuldoon, JohnWhite, Sir George (Norfolk)
Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)Munro, RobertWhite, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Howard, Hon. GeoffreyNolan, JosephWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Wood, Hon. E. F. G. (Yorks, Ripon)
Isaacs, Sir Rufus DanielO'Doherty, PhilipWood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
John, Edward ThomasParker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)Young, William (Perth, East)
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Price, C E. (Edinburgh, Central)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

Keating, MatthewPriestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
King, J. (Somerset, N.)Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

NOES.

Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (RhonddaHaslam, James (Derbyshire)Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Adamson, WilliamHenderson, Major H. (Abingdon)Snowden, Philip
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Hills, J. W.Sutton, John E.
Barnes, George N.Hohler, Gerald FitzroyThomas, James Henry (Derby)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Hudson, WalterThomson, Wm. Mitchell (Down, N.)
Brace, WilliamJohnson, WilliamThynne, Lord Alexander
Cautley, Henry StrotherLowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)Touche, George Alexander
Clynes, John R.Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)Mackinder, Halford J.Wardle, George J.
Dawes, James ArthurMorrell, PhilipWilliams, John (Glamorgan)
Edwards, Enoch HanleyNewton, Harry KottinghamWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Gill, Alfred HenryO'Grady, JamesWolmer, Viscount
Goldstone, FrankPickersgill, Edward HareWorthington-Evans, L. (Colchester)
Grant, J. A.Pointer, JosephYate, Colonel C. E.
Hancock, John GeorgeRichards, Thomas
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. C. Duncan and Mr. J. Parker.

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Main Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

National Debt Office (New Assistant- Comptroller)

I desire to call attention to the mischievous methods of the Government in connection with Civil Service appointments. I shall have occasion, in dealing with the matter, to make reference to a particular appointment, but I should like it to be understood that in no sense do I desire to make my observations personal in any way to the particular gentleman who has been appointed to the post I shall mention. It is the disadvantage of the system to which the Government have descended that I object to. It is not the advantage of the individual derived from that system that I in any way challenge. The particular instance is simply an extreme and a glaring case of what has been happening to a greater or less degree, but with continuous regularity, in almost every Department of the Civil Service in the last five years. It is for that reason that I invite the attention of the House to it. With the possible exception of the Foreign Office and Education Office, the tradition of the Civil Service has been certainly in recent years a democratic one—that offices in the Civil Service should be filled from the Civil Service by open competition where the appointment is original, and by promotion so far as possible where promotion occurs within the limits of any particular Department. It is perhaps natural to find that that democratic tradition should be departed from by a Government which is not quite as democratic in its practice as it is in its professions. It is true that within the last five years there have been almost nine hundred appointments to the Civil Service of persons outside without any open competition or qualifying examination. I am not unaware of the fact that there have been unusual circumstances which may explain in some degree the appointments, but the mischief has gone a great deal further than that. Open competition and promotion within the Service has been overlooked when it might quite well have been undertaken, and although competition is not inevitably the best way to find the best people, it is not necessarily the worst one. I am not immediately concerned with the appointments, but I am concerned with the dangerous and demoralising tendency of making the posts in the Civil Service at the disposal of the Government, to be given by them without rhyme or reason, so far as the public can ascertain, to persons outside, except for reasons which are purely personal to their own policy, and which have no real regard to the interests of the State, but a great deal of regard to the interests of the particular Government in office.

That demoralising tendency has another aspect. The tendency to fill appointments and to give promotion without regard to public considerations has caused what I think I may refer to, by way of illustration, as a very dangerous attitude of mind on the part of the followers of the Government. We had quite recently a glaring instance in the attack made on the Lord Chancellor in respect of certain appointments made outside. There you have a Minister whom certainly no one can suspect of reactionary tendencies. He is an orthodox and possibly an extreme Radical, but one whose good faith no one would have the audacity to challenge, and yet because he is large minded enough to make personal qualification the test of patronage, and because he is deaf to the demand that patronage should be the prize of fidelity to party, he is hounded by the whole Radical pack as if he were a dishonourable man. That is the tendency which results from this sort of appointment, and I venture to say it is pitiful that the Prime Minister in this House should so far put an affront on a distinguished colleague as to take time, and time again, to consider what statement he should make, and what action he should take in connection with the conduct of the Lord Chancellor in that matter. I mention that by way of illustration of the danger of the blunder the Government has committed. An appointment has recently been made of Assistant-Comptroller of the National Debt Office. It is necessary no consider the functions of the Assistant-Comptroller, and the duties of that office, before turning to the particular appointment and the suitability of the gentleman appointed.

All the work of the National Debt office is actuarial and financial. It comprises the management of the Savings Bank Funds, the Irish Land Purchase Fund under the different Acts, the Local Loan Fund, and the Government annuity system, including from time to time the preparation of tables and the alteration of annuity tables as experience demands. There are two things indispensable for efficient work in that office. Those two things are actuarial knowledge and experience. It is very significant to observe that by a Treasury Minute issued in 1899 by Sir Michael Hicks-Beach and ever since acted upon, promotion from inside that office is impossible unless actuarial knowledge is possessed by the person applying for promotion. It makes me curious when one finds that a man who has laboured to qualify himself for work in that office and has devoted his life from the first to that office, incapable of promotion unless he-has actuarial knowledge, yet from outside at the will of the Government a gentleman may be translated to that office without any knowledge or experience of actuarial work of any kind. The present staff consists of thirty-three officials. Fourteen of them have passed examinations of the Institute of Actuaries. Three of them are fellows, and three of them are associates, while two of them are graduates of the London University. There is no more efficient staff in any Government department, yet the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the Treasury, comes to this House and insults that staff by saying that a Whip may be taken from the door of this House, an estimable gentleman, but with no professional knowledge such as that office demands. And why? Because there is-no one in the office, forsooth, says the right hon. Gentleman, who is qualified to-perform the duties of Assistant-Comptroller. A vacancy occurred in June, 1910. After seven weeks' delay, in August the Assistant Comptroller-General was promoted. Nothing more was done until April of the present year, after ten months' work in the office, which was continued perfectly successfully. I ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether it is not a fact that the Comptroller-General recommended for promotion one of the persons inside his own office. Turn for a moment to the precedents and we find that never since 1888 has there been a case of an outsider translated to that office. There is one exception which I will deal with in a moment. One gentleman was transferred from the Treasury. It was a transfer from one Government Department to another. The circumstances were exceptional, and at any rate you were transferring a gentleman with business and Departmental knowledge. Since then Sir William Harcourt and the hon. Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) had opportunities of making appointments and both of them promoted men in the office. In 1903—I wish to be quite fair—when a Conservative Government was in power, an attempt was made to translate to this office a gentleman from outside. There was an absolute outcry on the part of the Radical party, and there was such an outcry on the part of "Truth "and various other Radical papers that the nominee actually had to resign, and never took up his official duties. And to the credit of one of the papers, "Truth," that paper describes the particular appointment to which I am now referring as an indefensible job. Why has the appointment of Sir Ernest Soares been made? Was it because of ill-health. The right hon. Gentleman informed the House this afternoon that it was not; that he would perform the work for the ordinary hours, and that he would perform the ordinary duties, which included a great deal of overtime. I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his attention has been called to the circular letter which Sir E. Soares, in parting from his Constituents, wrote on 16th April of this year. I will read two or three lines of it:—
"It is with deep and genuine grief that I write this letter, but circumstances over which I have no control compel it. For some time past my health has been far from satisfactory, and I feel the time is bound shortly to arrive when I should be unable to fulfil those duties which pertain to a Junior Lordship of the Treasury, duties which necessitate constant care, and often all-night sittings in the House of Commons."
It is illness which is going to prevent him from going on. He says:—
"It is for this cause, and this cause only, I am bound to sever my connection with my Constituency."
Yet the right hon. Gentleman comes down here and says that health had nothing whatever to do with it. Is it from a belief in the incapacity of those within the office that we have the appointment of a gentleman from outside? The right hon. Gentleman says "Yes." Was it from any special capacity of Sir E. Soares that he was appointed from outside this office? His business experience is limited, for in the past he carried on practice as a solicitor. I have nothing to say to that, and so far as it goes, it would qualify him for the work in certain aspects, but the business of a solicitor has no earthly relation to actuarial business and the business of high finance with which the National Debt Office is concerned. As regards the recent experience of Sir E. Soares, it has been limited, so far as is publicly known, to rounding up recalcitrant Radicals who wished to escape from the precincts of this House. So far as his mathematical knowledge has been concerned, it has been limited to counting heads as they emerged from the lobby. What was the reason which led to this appointment? If you turn to the election literature issued by Sir E. Soares, you will find two things. He states that he is a "strong believer in a good and efficient Second Chamber." He also said, in leaded type:—
"I hope you will not be led astray by the Home Rule bogey which our opponents are trying to set up."
And he added that he pledges himself not to vote for an "independent Parliament for Ireland." Let me ask this question: Was it ill-health that led to this appointment, was it capacity in Sir E. Soares, or his special qualifications which led to it; or was it the incapacity of others in the office, or was it, on all these points upon which the Government are mainly concerned at present, that he was not quite in accordance with them? However it may be, let me make this observation in conclusion. In making these appointments, it is of the utmost importance that economy and efficiency should be considered in reference to the public service. Are you going to get that economy and that efficiency? The public has a right to the best work that can be got for the Civil Service, and you are not doing that if you get an inefficient man and pay him the wages of an efficient man. You are neither making the Civil Service economical or efficient. You want to command public confidences, which you cannot have if you perpetrate jobs like this. You ought at least to show some meed of fairness to the permanent staff of the Civil Service. You discourage effort by introducing unqualified outsiders into Government Departments, you dissuade the best type of men from entering the service, you provoke a great sense of injustice, and, what is more, you do a great wrong to people who, from the beginning of their careers, have devoted their efforts, and devoted their energies and devoted their means to qualifying themselves for promotion in the Government service. Those people you wrong. You degrade the class of them, you injure the public service, you injure the credit of the Civil Service, if, for the sake of some indirect motive, some benefit that is going to accrue to the Front Bench, some difficulty to be got over, some advantage to be gained, you perpetrate jobs of this sort, which amount to nothing else but a public scandal.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down began his remarks by drawing attention to what he called the mischievous methods of the Government. He went on to inform the House that the last thing he intended to do was to be personal—

After all, the House is the best judge of whether the remarks of the hon. Gentleman were personal or not—

What was the whole pith of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. He drew attention to the political opinions of Sir Ernest Soares. I venture to think, as he has raised the matter, that the political opinions and productions of Sir Ernest Soares are not in question at the present moment. They neither fit nor unfit him for the position which he now holds. I am bound to say that the criticisms which the hon. Gentleman made upon Sir Ernest Soares' views give, I think, the whole clue to the discussion that we have been listening to for the last few moments. If he had been sitting on those benches opposite there would not have been a word said about the appointment. His real offence is that he was sitting on this side of the House. I would ask the House to consider what is the business that has to be transacted in the National Debt Office and what are the qualifications of Sir Ernest Soares for that appointment. First of all, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, there is the management of Life Annuities, a very complicated subject raising a very large number of legal questions. There is then the investment of large sums of money, the Old and New Sinking Funds, Post Office Savings Banks, Trustee Banks, Unclaimed Dividends, and certain funds of the Supreme Court. All these do not necessitate the great actuarial knowledge upon which the hon. Member dealt so largely. They require a very considerable knowledge of finance, not necessarily learnt in the lower stages of any Government office. They require a certain, indeed a wide, knowledge of all the legal questions which surround these investments, and upon that point they require a very considerable knowledge, both of men and more particularly of the City in general. Then there is the management of the Local Loans Fund, which raises a considerable number of legal and general financial questions. A very large sum is held by the National Debt Commissioners—first of all, in Funded Debt, then in Terminable Annuities, and in various securities of one sort or another—amounting to something between £200,000,000 and £300,000,000. Therefore you want a person of general good-standing and also of honourable, upright character as representing the National Debt Commissioners. The hon. Member opposite dwelt on the actuarial information which he desired the House to understand it was essential that any person holding the position of Assistant-Comptroller should have. It is unquestionable that in the office actuarial knowledge is necessary. It is unquestionable that the clerks in the lower ranks in the office do require that knowledge, and some of them must have it. But everybody knows who has any knowledge of Government Departments, that while a great deal of technical knowledge is wanted by the lower ranks, it is not essential to the successful and efficient management of the office itself that the higher officers should have that particular kind of technical knowledge. [A laugh.] The hon. Member who laughs is a K.C. He knows perfectly well that there is another branch of his own profession with which he is probably not very familiar, namely, the solicitors' branch. In the same way in regard to these offices, it is not necessary that every member in the office should have the same knowledge. The knowledge of the lower ranks supports the higher ranks, and the experience of the higher ranks utilises and guides the knowledge acquired in the lower ranks. As to the personal qualifications of Sir E. Soares, the hon. Member passed them over in a very slighting way. I venture to say that Sir E. Soares' qualifications as a scholar and as a man of business are exceptionally high. He was an Exhibitioner at St. John's College, Cambridge. [A laugh.] I do not know that that is anything to laugh at, unless the hon. Gentleman despises education altogether. He was also a First Class Prizeman in his college, which also perhaps the hon. Gentleman despises.

I deprecate these offensive personal allusions. Why the right hon. Gentleman should go out of his way to suggest that the hon. Member who raised this question had no appreciation of intellect or knowledge, I really do not know.

With regard to Sir Ernest Soares he is a gentleman of experience and a solicitor in very good practice, which yielded him a very much larger income than he will derive from politics or his present office. In fact, so far as mere income is concerned he gives up income by his transference. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is a permanent post."] Although he may be giving up what may be a temporary for what may be, and probably is, a permanency, over the actual years involved there is an actual loss of money. I have made inquiry as to the kind of work which will be transacted by the Assistant-Comptroller. It consists in dealing with securities which must be in legal form, and with matters which must be executed according to legal form. It deals with bonds, etc., and constantly includes legal questions which in times past have had to be referred to the Treasury Solicitor, and which we hope and expect will not have to be so referred so often in future. Only today the Comptroller-General tells me that he has had difficult legal questions submitted to him in connection with one

Division No. 190.]

AYES.

[10.59 p.m.

Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda)Brocklehurst, William B.Dewar, Sir J. A. (Inverness-shire)
Acland, Francis DykeBrunner, John F. L.Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)
Adamson, WilliamBurns, Rt. Hon. JohnDuncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)
Addison, Dr. ChristopherBuxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Agnew, Sir George WilliamCawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)Chapple, Dr. William AllenElverston, Harold
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)Clough, WilliamFerens, Thomas Robinson
Barnes, George N.Clynes, John R.Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.)Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)Fitzgibbon, John
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.)Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)France, Gerald Ashburner
Beauchamp, EdwardCrawshay-Williams, EliotGelder, Sir William Alfred
Benn, W. (T. Hamlets, St. George)Cullinan, J.Gill, Alfred Henry
Booth, Frederick HandelDavies, E. William (Eifion)Goldstone, Frank
Bowerman, Charles W.Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Griffith, Ellis Jones
Brace, WilliamDawes, James ArthurGuest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)
Brigg, Sir JohnDevlin, JosephHackett, John

of these forms of security and powers of attorney that in an ordinary course he would have taken to the solicitor for treatment. But he can deal with it with the aid of the colleague that he has at present. I will not go back, though I might, into the question of the transference from the Whips room to other appointments. I think the appointment which has been made is justifiable in every respect. I am exceedingly glad that the point has been raised in the House, because I think it has enabled us to justify the appointment, both by reason of the kind of work generally to be done, and by the qualifications of the person employed to do it.

I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for the compliment that he paid the Whips room. I have sat in that room for eleven years, and I have not yet found anyone who knew anything about bonds of identity or mortgages, or the various legal matters which seem necessary to this appointment, which apparently Sir E. Soares learnt in the Radical Whips room. It was evidently a first-class educational establishment. I regret very much on behalf of the public service to learn that there is no one in that service that the right hon. Gentleman can find capable of taking this important post. It speaks very badly for the efficiency of our public service or the ability of those who select the officers. I take very strong objection that our public service should be made a well-paid nursing home for those Whips who cannot sit up at nights.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 148; Noes, 49.

Hancock, John GeorgeMacnamara, Dr. Thomas J.Rose, Sir Charles Day
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)M'Callum, John M.Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)M'Micking, Major GilbertSeely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Harvey, W. E (Derbyshire, N. E.)Manfield, HarrySimon, Sir John Allsebrook
Haslam, James (Derbyshire)Marshall, Arthur HaroldSmith, Albert (Lancs., Clithero)
Havelock-Allan, Sir HenryMeehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Haworth, Arthur A.Middlebrook, WilliamSnowden, Philip
Hayden, John PatrickMillar, James DuncanStrachey, Sir Edward
Henderson, Arthur (Durham)Molteno, Percy AlportSutton, John E.
Higham, John SharpMorgan, George HayThomas, James Henry (Derby)
Hinds, JohnMorrell, PhilipThorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.Muldoon, JohnToulmin, George
Holt, Richard DurningMunro, RobertTrevelyan, Charles Philips
Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)Verney, Sir Harry
Howard, Hon. GeoffreyO'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Hunter, William (Lanark, Govan)O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Isaacs, Sir Rufus DanielO'Doherty, PhilipWarner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
John, Edward ThomasO'Dowd, JohnWatt, Henry A
Johnson, WilliamO'Grady, JamesWhite, Sir George (Norfolk)
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)Parker, James (Halifax)White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek)White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Jowett, Frederick WilliamPease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)Whitehouse, John Howard
Keating, MatthewPickersgill, Edward HareWilliams, John (Glamorgan)
King, Joseph (Somerset, North)Pointer, JosephWilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Lambert, George (Devon, Molton)Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)Wilson, W. T. Westhoughton)
Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rl'nd, Cockerm'th)Pringle, William M. R.Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Levy, Sir MauriceRaffan, Peter WilsonYoung, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Lewis, John HerbertReddy, MichaelYoung, William (Perth, East)
Lough, Rt. Hon. ThomasRichards, Thomas
Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Lundon, ThomasRoberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

Lyell, Charles HenryRoberts, George H. (Norwich)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F.Grant, James AugustusScott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)
Astor, WaldorfGuinness, Hon. Walter EdwardSmith, F. E. (Liverpool, Walton)
Baird, John LawrenceGwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Banbury, Sir Frederick GeorgeHall, Fred (Dulwich)Spear, John Ward
Banner, John S. Harmood-Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)Hillier, Dr. Alfred PeterStrauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)Hills, John Waller (Durham)Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)Hohler, Gerald FitzroyThynne, Lord Alexander
Carlile, Edward HildredJoynson-Hicks, WilliamTouche, George Alexander
Cautley, Henry StrotherKebty-Fletcher, J. R.Wolmer, Viscount
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale)Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)Mackinder, Halford J.Worthington-Evans, L.
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S.Newton, Harry KottinghamYate, Col. C. E.
Duke, Henry EdwardNorton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)
Fell, ArthurParker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Fisher, William HayesPease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Norman Craig and Mr. Peel.

Forster, Henry WilliamRutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)
Goldman, Charles SydneySanders, Robert Arthur

Main Question. "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put accordingly, and agreed to.

SUPPLY.—Considered in Committee.

[Mr. LYELL (Deputy-Chairman) in the Chair.]

Class 1—Art And Science Buildings, Great Britain

Motion made and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £74,900, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1912, for Expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain." [£25,000 has been, voted on account.]

I beg to propose, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

Question put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next, 1st May.

Adjourned at Thirteen minutes after Eleven o'clock.