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Commons Chamber

Volume 37: debated on Monday 15 April 1912

House of Commons

Monday, April 15, 1912

Private Business

Bedwellty Urban District Council Bill,

To be read the third time upon Monday-next.

Church Stretton Urban District Water Bill.

Dunstable Gas and Water Bill,

Egremont Urban District Water Bill,

Fleetwood Gas Bill,

Ramsbottom Urban District Railless Traction Bill,

Windermere District Gas and Water Bill, Read the third time, and passed.

Belfast Water Bill (by Order),

Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.

London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.

London County Council (Money) Bill,

"To regulate the expenditure of money by the London County Council on capital account during the current financial period and the raising of money to meet such expenditure; and for other purposes." Presented, and read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

East India (Loans Raised in England)

Copy presented of Return of all Loans raised in England, chargeable on the Revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ending on the 31st March, 1912, etc. [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 90.]

LIGHTHOUSES, Etc. (LOCAL INSPECTIONS)

Copies presented of Reports to the Board of Trade by the Trinity House of Deptford Strond, the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses, and the Commissioners of Irish Lights, of their Inspection of Local Lighthouses, Buoys, and Beacons [by Act); to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 91.]

Greek Loan of 1898

Account presented up to 31st March, 1912 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Egyptian Guaranteed Loan of 1885

Account presented up to 31st March, 1912 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Metropolitan Cattle Market

Account presented of Moneys received and paid by the Chamberlain of the City of London for the year 1911, also an Account of Extraordinary Works executed, other than General Repairs, for the same period [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—

Inquiry into Charities (County of Devon)

Further Return relative thereto [ordered 26th July, 1905; Mr. Griffith-Boscawen ]; to be printed. [No. 92.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Development Commission (Cattle-breeding)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has yet completed his scheme for the promotion of cattle-breeding, and whether the Development Commissioners have made him a Grant for that purpose; and, if so, can he publish the scheme?

The preparation of the scheme is well advanced, but some of its details are still under consideration. I hope shortly to be in a position to submit the scheme to the Treasury.

Has there been any Grant made for the purposes mentioned in this question?

Man Fatally Worried by Dogs (Middlesbrough)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he was aware that on 5th November, 1911, a young man was fatally worried by dogs running loose in a marine store yard at Middlesbrough; and whether, under the powers given in the Act of 1894, he proposes to take any action for prescribing and regulating the muzzling of dogs and the keeping of dogs under control?

I am aware of the case referred to, but I am advised that it would not be possible for me to take action under the powers conferred by the Diseases of Animals Act which would prevent the occurrence of accidents of this distressing character.

asked whether he was aware that on 5th November, 1911, a youth was fatally worried by dogs running loose in a marine store yard at Middlesbrough; and whether he proposes to take any steps, by legislation or otherwise, to prevent a recurrence of a similar fatality in the future?

My attention was drawn to this distressing occurrence. The facts were that the youth climbed over a fence some twelve feet high, protected by barbed wire, into the yard, where he could have had no lawful business, about midnight, and was fatally mauled by three dogs there. These dogs were kept chained up by day, but were unloosed at night. The owner was prosecuted under Section 2 of the Dogs Act, 1871, for keeping dogs which were dangerous and which were not under proper control, but the charge was dismissed. No similar accident has been brought to the notice of the Home Office, and I do not think that Parliament would sanction an absolute prohibition of the use of unchained dogs to guard enclosed premises.

Trawling for Herrings (Immature Fish)

asked if attention had been called to the fact that certain trawlers are now beginning to trawl for herrings with small-mesh nets, resulting in the destruction of quantities of immature fish, and that this practice must prove detrimental to the great herring industry of this country and to the supply of food; and if the Government propose to take any steps to prohibit this.

Changes have been made recently in the mesh of trawl nets in a certain number of trawlers. The matter is engaging the attention of the Board, and careful inquiries are being made as to the extent of the changes and their effect.

As the matter is one of such importance, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will be prepared to receive a deputation on the matter?

Yes, Sir. We have been collecting information, and, of course, I shall be glad to have any information which hon. Gentlemen can give me.

No Sir. I should hesitate to invade the territory of the Scottish Board.

House of Commons (Lighting)

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any Report has been received from an oculist consultant on the respective merits of gas and electricity as an illuminant for this House; and, if so, what is the purport of the Report?

The oculist's report has not yet been made, but when received it shall be laid upon the Table of the House.

Will the oculist have an opportunity of being present during the Debates in the evenings, so as to understand clearly what the conditions are?

Yes, Sir. The oculist will have every opportunity of making all observations which he considers necessary for the purposes of his report.

Royal Parks

asked whether, in the employment of men to look after the chairs and tickets in the Royal parks, preference is not given to men who are otherwise unemployed, but men are taken on in the evenings and Saturday afternoons and Sundays who are employed the week through elsewhere; and whether in future this practice will be reversed?

The selection of the men referred to rests solely with the chair licensee and not with the Commissioners of Works.

asked whether the privilege of selling newspapers, periodicals and other literature in the Royal parks is restricted to certain persons; if so, who are the persons so privileged, and what amount, if any, is paid for the privilege; and whether persons whose only means of livelihood is the vending of newspapers can be granted facilities for carrying on their business in the Royal parks?

Under the Parks Regulation Act, 1872, the sale of. any commodity in the Royal parks is forbidden, with a view to the comfort of the public using the parks. Certain exceptions are made to the rule; they include the lessees of the two newspaper kiosks in Hyde Park, who pay£105 a year under a three years' contract with the Commissioners of Works.

Telegrams to India (Cost)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the reduction in the cost per word of telegraphing to India has been more than nullified by the regulation that messages at the reduced rate must be sent in the clear; and whether he could see his way to the inclusion of Unicode or any other code at this reduced rate?

The recent reduction of 50 per cent, in rates of telegraphing both to India and to many other parts of the world was specifically intended to apply in plain language telegrams of a non-urgent character. I regret that the reduction cannot be extended to any telegrams in code. The possibility of compressing a meaning of several words into a single word of text enables those persons who are in a position to use codes to effect an economy of considerably more than 50 per cent, as compared with persons who have to use plain language, and consequently pay for every word of the actual meaning.

Postal Facilities (Glasgow)

asked whether the South-brae Drive portion of Jordanhill, Glasgow, is treated as a country district for postal purposes, whereas the remaining portion of the district is afforded town postal facilities; and whether he will remove this distinction in the interests of the. residents?

The Southbrae Drive neighbourhood is less populous and receives far less correspondence than other parts of the Jordanhill area, and I regret there are no grounds for according it additional postal factilities at present.

Postman's Suicide (Sunderland)

asked whether John William Reay, a postman of Sunderland, committed suicide through being threatened with removal from his walk owing to alleged complaints from the public, and that at the inquest the chief clerk of the post office at Sunderland stated that Reay was a very capable and thoroughly reliable fellow with an exceptionally good record; whether, seeing that disciplinary removal from walks is only inflicted for serious offences, he will explain why a man with a record like Mr. Reay's was so threatened; and whether he will make full inquiry into the methods of the chief officials at Sunderland in dealing with the postmen's staff?

I have at present no information, but I will inquire and communicate with the hon. Member.

Railway Workers Killed and Injured

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state how many passengers and how many railway workers were killed and how many were permanently injured on the railways of the United Kingdom during the last year for which the Board of Trade has Returns?

During the year 1911, 106 passengers and 390 employés were killed and 2,725 passengers and 5,311 employés were injured in accidents to trains or the movement of railway vehicles on the railways of the United Kingdom. I have no information which would enable me to state the number of cases in which the injuries were permanent. There were a large number of other accidents on railway premises, but not connected with the movement of vehicles, and these are included in a Return which was presented to Parliament on 2nd April, and will be issued in the course of the next few days.

Labour Exchange Buildings (Ireland)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received copies of resolutions passed by the Advisory Trade Committee for Ireland and by the Dublin United Trades Council complaining of the delay in erecting suitable buildings for Labour Exchange and insurance purposes in Dublin; whether he is aware that over two years have passed since this matter was first considered, the site secured, and the plans prepared; and whether, in view of the continued depression in the building trade in Dublin, he is now in a position to state when the work of erecting this building will be commenced?

A copy of the resolutions referred to by my hon. Friend was duly received, and the chairman of the Dublin Advisory Trade Committee was informed in January last that the proposals for the erection of a permanent building had been sanctioned and the plans approved. I regret the delay which has taken place in dealing with this matter. I may, however, explain that the building is not to be constructed out of public funds, but by the owner of the site, who has informed the Board of Works that the plans are now ready, and, if no unforeseen difficulties should arise, building operations will shortly be commenced.

May I ask when it is intended to erect similar and suitable buildings in London and other parts of the United Kingdom?

asked whether, in the reclassification of Labour Exchanges, it is intended to place the Dublin Labour Exchange in an inferior classification to that of Belfast; whether he is aware that the returns from the Dublin Labour Exchange, as published in the "Labour Gazette," show nearly 100 per cent, better results than Belfast, and equal to, frequently higher than, the returns from most of the first-class Exchanges in Great Britain; and whether he will give favourable consideration to the request made by all the Parliamentary representatives of the city and county of Dublin, as conveyed to him in their letter of the 21st February, namely, that Dublin shall, at least, rank equal to-Belfast in this matter?

It is not intended to place the Exchange in Dublin on an inferior classification to that in Belfast. This, I think, answers all the points raised in my hon. Friend's question.

Railways Bill

asked when the Government propose to take the Second Reading of the Railways Bill; and whether, in view of the effect of this Bill upon agriculture and trade throughout the Kingdom, opportunity will be afforded to the House for full discussion of its provisions?

I am unable at present to name a date for the Second Reading. There will be ample opportunity for discussing in detail the provisions of the Bill during the Committee stage.

Will the right hon. Gentleman circulate an explanatory memorandum in the form of a White Paper?

The hon. Member asked how far there would be an opportunity for discussing the details. The Bill will be before a Grand Committee, and there will be an opportunity for discussing it.

Pilotage Bill

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he intends to reintroduce this Session the Pilotage Bill of last Session, or whether a new Bill dealing with pilotage will be introduced?

I hope very shortly to re-introduce the Pilotage Bill with certain modifications designed to meet the views of various bodies interested with whom I have been in communication.

Anuak Tribe

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether a military expedition has been dispatched against the Anuak tribe, and with what object and result; whether the Anuaks possess firearms and ammunition; and, if so, how and whence were they obtained; whether the territory of the Anuak tribe is under the jurisdiction of the Egyptian Government; and, if not, whether the purpose of the expedition is to annex that territory to the Sudan or to establish therein any form of civilised administration; and whether the country is known to possess any resources capable of agricultural, mineral, or commercial development?

An expedition has been dispatched by the Sudan Government against the Anuaks in consequence of their persistent depredations and raids upon their more orderly neighbours. An engagement took place on 15th March in heavy bush. The Anuaks were defeated with loss, and fled after a stubborn engagement in -which the forces of the Sudan Government lost two British and three native officers and forty-two killed. The enemy's positions were destroyed. The Anuaks appeared to be well supplied with arms and ammunition, which, it is supposed, they have obtained from across the Abyssinian frontier, where the bulk of the tribe is settled. Raiding parties have, however, constantly appeared on Sudanese territory, where a portion of the tribe has established itself in the vicinity of the River Sobat. There is no question of annexing territory beyond the Sudanese border; the purpose of the expedition is to restore within that border the order and tranquillity that have been temporarily disturbed by the incursion and excesses of a barbarous tribe. The regions in question are, at present, imperfectly known and mapped. It is intended to carry out a more thorough exploration in connection with the present operations, respecting which I am awaiting a detailed report from His Majesty's Agent and Con-sul-General at Cairo, and the Governor-General of the Sudan.

I shall repeat the numbers. The engagment resulted in the loss of two British officers and three native officers and forty-two killed.

Pilotage (Port of Bristol)

asked whether, pending expected legislation on pilotage, the right hon. Gentleman will refuse his consent to the new by-laws proposed to regulate pilotage in the port of Bristol?

I cannot at present say more than that I will give careful consideration to the objections to the proposed by-laws which I have received from the Bristol pilots, but I am not prepared to say yet what action I shall take in regard to the by-laws.

If the right hon. Gentleman finds that these new by-laws are liable to be altered by legislation to be passed in a very few months, would it not be better to postpone the matter altogether?

That is a point for consideration when we are considering the whole question.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered what a great amount of expense, time and trouble will be involved if these by-laws are passed?

Loss of SS. "Oceana" (Inquiry)

asked whether, in the course of the forthcoming inquiry into the loss of the Peninsular and Oriental mail steamer "Oceana," it is intended to take independent evidence regarding the state of discipline on board, the adequacy of provision for manning and lowering the boats, also the seaworthiness and proper equipment of the same; and whether any passengers, particularly officers on passage, are to be examined with reference to these points?

In considering the scope of the inquiry ordered by the Board of Trade into the case of the '; Oceana," due consideration shall be given to the points referred to in the Noble Lord's question.

May I ask whether there are any regulations which require the captain of a steamer to report at the end of his voyage the number of times the boats have been manned, as indicated in the question?

If the hon. Member will kindly give me notice of his question I will give him a considered answer.

Suffragists in Prison

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he intends to remit the remaining part of the sentences of imprisonment passed on the women window-smashers, seeing that he has already released from gaol the leader and instigator of these women; and, if not, will he explain why he does not intend to do so?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. I advised the remission of a part of Mrs. Pankhurst's sentence in order that she might be in the same position as her co-defendants in preparing her defence on the later charge against her. There are no similar circumstances in the case of the other prisoners.

asked the Home Secretary whether he would state to the House the reason he has not allowed women suffrage prisoners in division three the privileges conceded to such prisoners by his predecessor under Article 243a of the prison rules?

I have given the privileges under Rule 243a to those suffragette prisoners who have been sentenced to short terms in the second or third division, but where the offence was of such a character that the defendants had to be sent for trial on indictment, and the Court regarded the violence as so serious as to call for a long term of imprisonment, it appeared to me that I could not properly accord privileges which were expressly intended only for persons not guilty of serious violence. I have, however, received a letter this morning from the Chairman of Quarter Sessions, and in consequence of what he says, I am considering the question of giving certain of the privileges allowed under Rule 243a.

Is it not a fact that certain women convicted for similar offences last November were given the advantage of this special rule?

Last November certain women were convicted on indictment, but in that case the Court did not appear to take the view that the violence was serious, and only gave a sentence of two months. In the present cases the Court has in no case given less than three months and in many cases six months. That is the distinguishing feature from which it is quite clear that the Court regarded the offences of last March as being of a more serious character than those of last November.

Are we to understand, then, that if the sentence does not exceed two months the special privileges under Article 243a of the Prison Rules are to be granted, and if the sentence exceeds two months they will be denied?

Not altogether, as I have stated in my answer. The Chairman of Quarter Sessions has sent me a letter in which he expresses certain views about the seriousness of the offences, and in consequence of this letter I am considering the question whether certain of the privileges under Rule 243a should not be allowed to the convicted prisoners in these cases.

Oh, yes. The prisoners have only got to consent to take their food in the ordinary way.

The right hon. Gentleman misunderstands me. I meant, of course, when they do not take their food in the ordinary way.

Is it not a fact that the hunger strike, or going without food, has arisen solely because these women consider themselves entitled to the privileges allowed by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor?

It would be very dim-cult to enter into the minds of these women, but I cannot accept the view put forward by my hon. Friend because one of these women has gone on the hunger strike who is receiving the benefit of these rules.

Is it not a fact that she did so solely out of sympathy for the other women and because she declined to be made an exception of?

No. Sir; she went on the hunger strike before the other women. [Laughter.]

There is a lot to laugh at, more especially on the part of hon. Members opposite.

asked how many prisoners in prison for offences connected with the recent suffrage disturbances have been forcibly fed; how many are now being forcibly fed; and have any of the prisoners so fed been discharged, and for what reason?

Twenty-five of these prisoners have attempted to starve themselves, and have had to be fed forcibly. Of these five were at once reported for discharge on medical grounds, one suffering from heart disease, two from aortic disease, one from phthisis, and one from asthma. Three of the others have resumed the natural mode of feeding; seven take their food from a feeding cup; and ten have to be fed by tube in order to prevent their injuring themselves by voluntary starvation.

Is it a fact that certain of these women were not allowed to use the water taps during the time the strike was on?

No, Sir, that is not exactly the case. After inquiry I was informed that milk was put into the cells of some of these women who declined to take their food in the ordinary way instead of water, but on their spilling the milk or otherwise getting rid of it, they were given free access to the taps, and they have had supplies of water.

There was no prohibition of the supplies of water. The hon. Member has not given me notice of this question, and I may say that the whole transaction occurred without my knowledge, but as I understand it, what happened was that milk was put in the cells, and as soon as it was found that they would not take the milk they were given access to the water.

Is it not a fact that some of the women are being fed by tubes through the nostrils?

Possibly that is so, but my hon. Friend must give me notice of that question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware these women are taking this step to assert their right to be treated as political prisoners, and will he consider whether the Government he represents could not concede to them the same privileges which were fought for in the case of the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. W. O'Brien), whose clothes were only taken away, and who was not fed in this brutal and disgusting fashion?

I do not know the right hon. Member for Cork City ever declined to take his food.

I may remind my hon. Friend that, unlike the case of the hon. Member for Cork City, these women—

These women are allowed to wear their own clothes, and there is no parallel in the case. Everybody undoubtedly feels very great sympathy with them, and I am sorry to be compelled to force them; but, if they refuse to take their food, there is no other course open to us.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not a fact that the fight the Irish Members made was against three separate prison rules—first, that they should wear prison dress; secondly, that they should exercise with ordinary criminals; and, thirdly, that they should carry out menial offices in connection with sweeping out their cells and making their beds; and is it not a fact that some months after the fight had been made at some little risk and pain the Government, the Tory Government, dropped everyone of these rules and treated us for the future as political prisoners?

My recollection of the circumstances is not so clear as that of the hon. Member; but, as far as I remember the case, none of the prisoners of whom the hon. Member speaks were charged with personal violence. That is the chief distinction in the present case.

If these women had confined themselves to expressing political opinions and had been charged with that, as the hon Member for Cork City was, there would have been no question of their receiving these privileges.

May I ask whether the privileges under this new rule are not to be granted to prisoners whose offence does not imply moral turpitude, and whether that does not apply to the women who got six months as much as to the others?

I believe the expression "moral turpitude" was used by my right hon. Friend the late Home Secretary (Mr. Churchill), but there is no mention of "moral turpitude" in the rule, and, as far as I interpret their action, I considered they were guilty of moral turpitude.

asked what number of prisoners arrested in connection with the recent suffrage disturbances have been sentenced to imprisonment with hard labour; what number to imprisonment in division three; and how many of those in division three are receiving the privileges laid down in the prison rule 243a?

Seventy-six have been sentenced to hard labour, and 127 to imprisonment in the third division. Of the latter thirty-one were convicted and sentenced to short terms at the police courts, and have been allowed the privileges of Rule 243a. The others were tried on indictment and were sentenced 10 longer terms of imprisonment.

Kidderminster Workhouse (Assault on Master)

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the case of Richard Williams, who was sentenced to twenty-one days' imprisonment in Worcester Gaol on Saturday, 6th April, for an assault upon the workhouse master in the vagrant ward of Kidderminster Workhouse; whether he is aware that Williams sought and obtained shelter on Thursday evening, 4th April, but on the following morning, being Good Friday, was not allowed to perform his task, which meant keeping him in the workhouse for another four days, whereupon he committed the assault upon the workhouse master for which he was sentenced; and whether, under the circumstances, he will recommend a remission of the remainder of the sentence?

I have made inquiry and find the man was convicted, not of assault, but of wilful damage. He was aware when he entered the workhouse on the Thursday evening that he could not obtain his discharge till the following Sunday and made no complaint, but on the Friday morning he broke two large windows and had to be removed by the police. I see no reason for advising any interference with the sentence.

Marriage with Deceased Wife's Sister (Channel Islands)

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that in or about the year 1851 an Order in Council was issued enabling the marriage of a man with his deceased wife's sister to be legally entered into in the Channel Islands; and whether he will recommend His Majesty to cause another Order in Council to issue enabling a man in the Channel Islands to marry his' brother's widow?

There is no record of any Order in Council on this subject having been made in or about 1851. Marriage with a deceased wife's sister was legalised in Jersey in 1896 and in Guernsey in 1909. A change in the law can be effected only by an Act of the States, approved by the King in Council; and in the absence of insular legislation, I cannot take any action in the matter.

Coal Strike (Damage to Property)

asked if the right hon. Gentleman will furnish to the House an approximate estimate in money terms of the damage done to mine property during the coal strike as the result of direct violence, and owing to the deterioration of workings and plant due to the fact that proper arrangements could not be made for running the pumping and other machinery?

I cannot give any estimate, but I may say that the amount of damage done by direct violence has been comparatively small. Where disturbances have occurred (and they have happily been few) they have been directed against workers rather than against mine property. On the other hand, the damage due to deterioration of workings and plant is no doubt in some localities very great, but it is, I am advised, quite impossible to form even an approximate estimate of the amount of the loss.

Mr. Rudyard Kipling's Verses, "Ulster."

asked the Attorney-General if he intends to prosecute Mr. Rudyard Kipling for the offence of sedition for his verses, entitled "Ulster"; and whether he intends to prosecute the publishers of the said verses and the printers who set them up in type?

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask you, Sir, whether, in a question of this sort, where a charge of sedition is made, it would not be more appropriate that the hon. Member who puts the question on the Paper should read the verses to the House in order that we may judge?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the propriety of having this poem framed, along with the other poem by the same author, entitled "Cleared," and have it hung in the Library?

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the general opinion is that this doggerel cannot be called "verse" at all?

National Insurance Act

Approved Societies (Preliminary Expenses)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether it is intended by the recently issued memorandum of the Health Insurance Commissioners, authorising the payment of preliminary expenses in connection with the formation and approval of approved societies out of the management fund accruing thereafter, to permit the preliminary expenses in connection with the association or federation of small societies to be defrayed in like manner?

If the hon. Member refers to an association or federation or advisory committee intended to give advice and assistance to societies in their transactions under the Act, the Commissioners are of opinion that reasonable expenses incurred by societies in forming it may properly be charged to their management fund. If the association or federation to which the hon. Member refers becomes an approved society the memorandum as to preliminary expenses applies to it as to any other approved society. If it is an association formed under Section 39 (2) of the Act, the Commissioners are advised that a contribution by an approved society out of its management fund towards the expenses of forming such an association may properly be regarded as expenditure for the purposes of the administration of benefits under the Act. It must, however, be understood that any such contribution by an approved society must come out of the moneys available for administration, and cannot be made additional thereto.

Advisory Committee

asked the qualification which Mr. F. L. Blundell possesses to be the representative of English agriculture on the advisory committee appointed under Clause 58 of the National Insurance Act, and as such to give advice to the committee on insurance as affecting the agricultural population?

The gentleman referred to is Vice-President of the Lancashire Farmers' Association, and is exceptionally well informed on the conditions of work both of farm labourers and of farmers, and especially concerning the problems of friendly society work amongst farm labourers. He has been engaged since the National Insurance scheme was first introduced to Parliament in active effort in connection with the formation or maintenance under the Act of approved societies for agricultural areas; and is in every way qualified for the work required to be done by members of the advisory committee.

Governmext Workers

asked with reference to Paragraph lib, Schedule I., of the National Insurance Act, whether persons in civil employment under the Crown with wages below£160 per annum, who can be granted sick leave within a maximum of six months on full pay and six months on half pay, will be exempt from the necessity of becoming assured persons under the provisions of the Act?

As I have already stated, an Interdepartmental Committee is now considering the application of the Act to various classes of Government workers. I think it undesirable to anticipate the Report of that Committee by giving answers to questions falling within their terms of reference. The Report will be produced, and steps taken to bring it to the notice of all persons affected, at the earliest possible date.

Candidates for Appointments (Examination)

asked when the Commissioners under the National Insurance Act will issue the regulations governing the examination of candidates for appointments under that Act, as well as information as to the grades to be appointed and the salaries attaching thereto?

The additional permanent positions which will require to be filled from outside the Civil Service under the four Insurance Commissions and the method of selecting from candidates for these appointments are now under special consideration in conjunction with the Treasury and the Civil Service Commission. I hope to be able to make an announcement very shortly.

Iron, Steel, Tin-Plate, and Sheet-Mill Industhy

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will state why the iron, steel, tin-plate, and sheet mill industry has not been granted a representative on the advisory committee set up under the National Insurance Act; is he aware that there are at least 150,000 organised workmen in such industry; and will he consider their claim to be represented thereon?

The Joint Committee in selecting trade unionists for their advisory committee adopted the classification of the Board of Trade Official Directory, Cd. 5619. In this the iron, steel, tin-plate, and sheet-mill industry is combined with others falling within the general category of metal, engineering and shipbuilding trades, and the representative finally selected from this group was a member recommended by the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, the largest society within the group.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this industry has no real connection with engineering and the trades mentioned? And, further, that according to the Board of Trade Returns, while there are 150,000 men organised there are over 300,000 in this industry, and they have no direct representative on the advisory committee, and will he reconsider the matter?

The trade union representation is already very big. It is larger than that of the friendly societies or of the employers, and I am not sure I can see my way to promise to add to their number.

How is it the hon. Gentleman has put representatives of small and unimportant industries on the committee and has neglected a great industry like this?

I think if my hon. Friend will look with some attention at the committee he will find that each trade unionist represents a large and important group.

North-Eastern Railway Servants Pension Society

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the North-Eastern Railway Servants' Pension Society is refusing to allow men who have previously intimated their desire to make that society their approved society under the National Insurance Act to withdraw from that society, after reconsideration, in favour of their trade union; and, as this action amounts to intimidation, what steps he proposes to take to ensure every man having a free right to choose his approved society?

I have no information as to the alleged action of the society referred to by my hon. Friend. The Insurance Act specifically lays down that it shall not be a condition of employment that the employes of any company shall belong to any employer's fund, or that members shall be forbidden to transfer from such a fund to other approved societies. If my hon. Friend has any evidence that this condition is being violated, I will gladly inquire into the matter.

Questions

Customs Service

asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what was the usual date, prior to amalgamation of Customs and Excise, of the issue of the annual leave minute for officers of the outdoor department of the Customs service in London; whether owing to shortage of staff the corresponding minute for the current year is being withheld; whether he will cause such increase of staff in the near future as to ensure that the leave periods shall not extend beyond the usual date in October; and whether reasonable notice of annual leave will be given so as to avoid as far as possible the inconvenience and loss arising from the failure to give such notice?

The leave minute is usually issued during the month of February. It has been delayed this year owing to the transitional period of change through which the Service is passing. It is, I fear, impossible to guarantee that every officer shall have his holiday before October, but it is hoped to issue the minute at an early date, and thus as far as practicable, avoid inconvenience and loss.

asked if any report has been issued of the Committee appointed last year to inquire in the conditions of employment of out-port watchers of His Majesty's Customs; and if these men are working for a wage of 21s. per week while the price of goods is increasing?

Out-port watchers receive 21s. a week, one-fourth of their number rising to 24s. by annual increments of Is. a week. The Committee appointed last October to inquire into the conditions of employment, etc., of the Customs Waterguard Service and of the watchers is now preparing its report, and the report when received will be given full consideration.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when the report will be issued, and is he aware these men are still working for low wages?

I think it will be issued very shortly. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put a question later on.

Preserved Cream

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has yet decided upon another and less alarming description for chemically-preserved cream, in place of preserved cream boracised, for insertion in invoices and the labelling of cream receptacles in compliance with the Board's new regulations?

I have not yet come to a final decision, but the hon. Member may rest assured that I will not overlook the point.

Casual Wards (Metropolis)

asked the President of the Local Government Board how long the arrangement relating to the registration of vagrants within the Metropolitan area under the Metropolitan Asylums Board has been in force; how many have been registered; whether he will issue papers to show the results of the investigation and experiment; whether he proposes to issue any Order dealing with Vagrants and Casual Wards in the course of the next few months; and whether he has any official information showing whether the present treatment of vagrants in the casual wards of country workhouses, is adequate to cure or even mitigate the tramp evil?

The Order which I have issued transferring the casual wards-within the Metropolis to the Metropolitan Asylums Board came into force on the 1st April, but a register of homeless persons found within the Metropolitan area had previously been started, and 1,442 persons have been registered during the last few months. The results of the investigation will be carefully recorded. I am not at present proposing to issue a further Order on the subject of Vagrants and Casual Wards. The latest general information on the subject is to be found in the Report of the Departmental Committee on Vagrancy.

Considering the large number of habitual vagrants convicted last year as common rogues, will the right hon. Gentleman not take some real steps and put a stop to the evil?

Perhaps the result of instituting a register in London may suggest a quicker way out of the difficulty than we had before.

Feeble-Minded Paupers

asked the President of the Local Government Board, what is the number of feeble-minded persons in Poor Law union workhouses and the number of feeble-minded, including certified lunatics, maintained by Poor Law guardians in county and borough asylums, whether any Return has been made in connection with these persons since 1st January, 1906; and whether he will ask for a more up-to-date Return from boards of guardians without delay?

The total number of pauper lunatics or idiots on the 1st January, 1912, in county and borough asylums, registered hospitals, and licensed houses was 96,883. The latest Return of feeble-minded persons other than certified lunatics was obtained on 1st January, 1906, and related to persons under sixty years of age. According to that Return, the number of such persons in workhouses or other Poor Law establishments in England and Wales was 8,775. I do not think there would be any special advantage in obtaining another Return of this character at the present time.

Is it the intention of the Government to deal with this question by legislation?

Poor Law Unions

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will issue a White Paper showing the number of children under sixteen years of age in Poor Law union workhouses and infirmaries, and in separate establishments for children, and of children boarded out within the union and boarded out without the union, respectively, on 31st March, 1906, 1st January, 1911, and 1st January, 1912, distinguishing where possible those who were over and those who were under three years of age?

I have in preparation a Paper which will include information of the nature desired by the hon. Member.

asked how many Poor Law unions there were in England and Wales on the 1st January, 1906, and the 1st January, 1912, respectively; whether any further reduction of the number of unions is contemplated; and whether such reduction can be carried out without legislation?

The number of Poor Law unions, exclusive of out-relief unions, in England and Wales was 645 on 1st January, 1906, and 643 on 1st January, 1912. The number is now 641. The Local Government Board have statutory powers under certain circumstances to dissolve a Poor Law union, but a large reduction in the number of unions would hardly be practicable without legislation.

Heavy Motor Vehicles

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to the damage that is caused to householders and others in many towns by the splashing of mud from heavy motor vehicles when driven at a rate of ten miles an hour through narrow streets; and whether he will consider the desirability of conferring upon urban authorities the power to fix a lower maximum speed for vehicles exceeding a certain weight when passing through their areas, and to make the carrying of proper mudguards compulsory?

I have received some representations from local authorities in London on this subject. Legislation would be necessary to confer upon urban authorities the powers suggested in the question. As regards the compulsory provision of mudguards, perhaps I may refer my hon. Friend to the reply of the Home Secretary to the hon. Member for North Islington on the 4th ultimo.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a very real grievance, and will he consider the desirability of introducing legislation on the matter?

The responsibility, as far as London is concerned, rests with the police authorities.

Vagrant's Complaint (Kidderminster)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the authorities of the workhouse at Kidderminster vagrant ward who refused to allow a vagrant who had obtained a night's shelter on Thursday, 4th April, to perform his task work on Good Friday, which meant his detention in the house until the Monday following; whether this is in accordance with the regulations of the Local Government Board; and whether these arrangements can be so amended as to obviate cases of hardship like the one in question?

My attention has been drawn to the case referred to. I understand that the man would have been discharged on Sunday morning. The period for which a casual pauper may be detained is determined by Section 4 of the Casual Poor Act, 1832. In the computation of the time for detention the enactment expressly excludes Sunday, but not Good Friday. I will consider whether the matter is one in which I can take any further action.

Would that arrangement provide that the vagrant should practically be released on the Saturday night instead of on the Sunday?

This man was admitted on Thursday night, and would have, in ordinary circumstances, been discharged on the Saturday. A number of other casuals gave the guardians special reasons why they should be released and were let out on the Friday morning and also on the Sunday. I am afraid this man broke a window, not in connection with the refusal to let him out sooner, but for some other reason I cannot fathom.

Bankruptcy Laws (Scotland)

asked the Lord Advocate whether he intends introducing the Bankruptcy Law Reform (Scotland) Bill promised last Session; and, if so, on what date?

The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the affirmative; but I am not yet in a position to say when the Bill will be introduced.

Trawling Kegulations (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Scottish Fishery Board have received complaints of trawlers openly taking advantage of the absence of fishery cruisers to practice illegal fishing within the three-mile limit; and whether the Government will consider the advantage of installing wireless telegraphy on the fishery cruisers with land stations at suitable places?

The Board have received only one complaint of trawling within the three-mile limit since the beginning of March, and on investigation it was found that no proof was available that the alleged offender was within that limit. As. regards the second part of the question, I am advised that the cost of installing and maintaining wireless telegraphy at shore stations and on board the cruisers would involve a very large expenditure.

Prosecution of Mr. Tom Mann

asked the Prime Minister if he can state the number of resolutions received from various sources protesting against the prosecution and imprisonment of the Messrs. Buck and Mr. Guy Bowman and the arrest of Mr. Tom Mann; and whether he is prepared to-advise the release of the persons mentioned and the abandonment of the prosecution against Mr. Mann?

The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. I have received about 300 resolutions on the subject. I am not prepared to advise any further remission of sentence in the case of the Messrs. Buck and Mr. Bowman, and I have no authority to intervene as regards the proceedings pending against Mr. Tom Mann.

Government of Ireland Bill

Committee on Irish Finance

asked the Prime Minister when the Report of the Committee on Irish Finance will be published?

The Report is being printed with a view to being presented to Parliament as soon as possible.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see it is published in time for the Nationalist Convention in Dublin?

Taxation (Great Britain and Ireland)

asked whether, under the Government of Ireland Bill, assuming the subjects and rates of taxation to be uniform in Great Britain and Ireland, the transferred sum will be a fixed amount calculated on the datum of a particular year or a proportionate amount varying with the rise or fall of revenue actually received?

Apart from the surplus, i.e., the sum of£500,000, which will diminish to£200,000, and a sum equal to the proceeds of any Irish taxes imposed in Ireland by the Irish Parliament, the transferred sum will be a fixed sum, and such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the net cost to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom at the time of the passing of the Act of Irish Services. As I have .already indicated, in the event of the reduction or discontinuance of any Imperial tax by the Irish Parliament, the transferred sum will be reduced in each financial year by the amount by which the proceeds of the tax are diminished in that year in consequence of the reduction or discontinuance.

If the Imperial Parliament imposes a new tax and the Irish Parliament consents to a lesser sum will the transferred sum be affected in that case?

Constitution of Irish Legislature

asked if the proposed Irish Legislature will have power to alter, increase, or reduce its own membership or the units for the constituencies or the boundaries and areas of the constituencies in Ireland in returning Members to the Dublin assembly?

The proposed Irish Legislature will not have power to alter the numbers of its membership, but after three years from the passing of the Act the Irish Parliament may alter, as respects the Irish House of Commons, the qualification of the electors, the mode of election, the constituencies, and the distribution of the Members of the House among the constituencies, provided that in any new distribution due regard is had to the population of the constituencies other than university constituencies.

Is it not possible under that arrangement for the entire Unionist representation to be abolished?

Repeal of Statutes

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if, under the Government of Ireland Bill, it will be competent for the Irish Parliament to repeal or vary existing Statutes in so far as they apply to Ireland in cases in which such Statutes deal with matters which will, under the Bill, be removed from the control of the Imperial Parliament?

The general answer to the question of the hon. Member is in the affirmative.

Draft of Bill

I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to a speech made at Battersea yesterday by the hon. Member for South Kilkenny, in which he is reported to have said that he had had an opportunity of thoroughly examining the Government of Ireland Bill, and had carefully studied every Clause; whether he will state for what reason the hon. Member for South Kilkenny was shown a copy of the Bill before the House of Commons had given leave for its introduction; how many private Members of the House of Commons have seen the Bill, and to what political parties do they belong; and whether he will afford similar facilities to Members of the Unionist party to examine and study the Bill before the Division on the First Reading?

I have not seen the speech referred to, and I do not know whether it is accurately reported. So far as I am aware, no opportunity was given to the hon. Member in question to see or study the Bill. As I have stated before, at various stages in the drafting of the Bill certain of the Irish Members have been consulted as to its provisions. The Bill will be circulated in the usual way as soon as it has been introduced.

Questions

General Strike of Railway Workers (Threatened)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a threat made on 4th April by Mr. W. E. Crawford, a representative of railway workers on the Central Conciliation Board, that a general strike of railway workers would take place in the summer, without any notice being given to the railway companies of the intention to strike or of the day on which it would commence; and whether the Government propose to take any steps, by-legislation or otherwise, to protect the public against the danger of a sudden and unforseen cessation of the entire railway service of the country?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I have seen reports in the newspapers of the statement referred to by the hon. Member, but I can hardly believe that it correctly represents the views or intentions of railway servants generally. I do not propose to make any announcement as to the steps which the Government would take in the unlikely event of an emergency such as the hon. Member suggests arising.

Rating in Scottish Towns

asked the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has yet been given to certain irregularities respecting the imposing of landlords' rates upon tenants of small houses in Scotch towns since the passing of the House Letting and Eating (Scotland) Act; and, if so, can he take any steps to protect the tenants -against such imposition?

I do not think that I can add anything to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend on 1st April, but if he will give me specific information as to any alleged irregularities, I shall be glad to make further inquiry.

Are not the landlords of Greenock putting an increase of rent on in respect of taxes and using this Bill as a pretext for so doing?

Any attempt to justify the raising of rent on the pretext of the Bill is not necessarily irregular.

Small Holdings (Scotland)

asked how many persons have applied for new holdings under the Smallholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, and what is the total acreage of land applied for; and how many persons have applied for extensions of existing holdings, and what is the total acreage of land applied for?

The Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, came into operation only at the beginning of the present month. The Board of Agriculture for Scotland are at the present time engaged in the preliminary organisation of their Department, and I am not prepared to press them to tabulate statistics until sufficient time has elapsed to enable them to get over the initial stages of their work.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when he expects to be in a position to give some statistics as to the applications received?

After this comparatively short time it is not desirable to interrupt the work in order to get that information.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are complaints of the non-arrival of application forms at the various sheriffs' clerks' offices; will he see that they are available at once?

Royal Navy

Men's Pay

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has taken into consideration the question of the pay of the men of His Majesty's Fleet; whether he is aware that the pay of men of other branches of His Majesty's Service has been raised during late years; whether he is aware that the prices of provisions have considerably increased; and whether he can assure the House that he will take these matters into consideration with a view of making the pay of the men of His Majesty's Fleet suitable for modern requirements?

I must refer the Noble Lord to my statement in the naval Debate of 20th March, that we recognise it as the first of our duties to watch sympathetically over the interests, comfort, and contentment of the seamen of the Fleet. The question of pay is constantly under the consideration of the Admiralty, and I have nothing to add to what was said in the Debate.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the seamen in the Fleet have not had a rise in pay for the last fifty years?

Austria and Italy (Naval Estimates)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will give similar comparative particulars of the naval estimates of Austria and Italy to those which he recently furnished as regards Germany] Mr. CHURCHILL: It has not been found possible in the time available to obtain the information required, and I must therefore ask the hon. Member to postpone his question for a week.

Devonport Dockyard (Discharges)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that a discharge of some 300 men from the engineer manager's department in Devonport Dockyard is contemplated; whether he will explain the reason for so large and so sudden a displacement of labour; and whether, seeing that work is plentiful in the engineer manager's department, he can see his way to reconsider the matter of these discharges, especially in view of the great distress that such a course must entail upon the men and their families?

One hundred and twenty men are under notice of discharge on reduction, and further discharges, bringing the total beyond the figure mentioned in the question, appear to be inevitable in the engineer department. It is simply a question of the amount and nature of the work before us. Probably the grand total of men to be employed in the yard this year will not fall below that of last year. But an adjustment is necessary because of the nature of the work to be accomplished. In making these discharges we shall show what consideration we can, by arranging the order of standing off in such a way as to secure that, all other things being equal, the men who have been the shortest time in our employment shall go first—subject to a preference which is given to our own ex-apprentices.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say anything as to the possibility of these 300 or more men being taken on again during the next three or four months?

No, I cannot say that, but should it be necessary these men who are compelled to stand off, all other things being equal, who have been the longest in our service prior to their discharge, will have the preference should there be work to do.

Am wrong in making the statement that there was not sufficient work in the shipyards for the men?

There is not sufficient work, otherwise they would be retained to do it.

Questions

Trade Agreements

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received the terms of the preferential agreement arranged between the Government of Canada and the Government of the West Indian Colonies; and, if so, whether he can state what are the general terms of the agreement, and if he will lay the agreement upon the Table?

I have received a telegram from the Governor-General of Canada stating that an agreement was signed on the 10th instant by representatives of the Dominion Government and the Governments of the West Indian Colonies concerned. The agreement is subject to the approval of the Government of Canada, the West Indian legislatures, and the Secretary of State. The Governor-General adds that it is not proposed to publish the agreement before it is considered by the legislatures, and, in view of this decision, I cannot at present state the terms of the agreement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government has under consideration the legislative federation of the West Indian islands; and, if so, will he make a statement upon the progress of the movement?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received information concerning a proposed reciprocal trade agreement to be negotiated between the Dominion of Canada and the Commonwealth of Australia; and whether such proposals for reciprocity have the support of this Government?

The Canadian Government at the end of last year made proposals to the Commonwealth for a conference to consider mutual preferences on a limited number of articles. I have not yet received information as to what reply has been returned to this proposal. I see no reason for the intervention of His Majesty's Government.

Do I understand that the Government do not desire information upon this particular question of reciprocal relations between the Colonies and the overseas Dominions?

Oh, yes, we desire it, and I am sure we shall receive it the moment it is available.

asked whether the Government will consider the advisability of appointing a second and separate Empire Trade Commission to inquire into and report upon the resources, the trade and commerce, and the trade relations of the Crown Colonies and Protectorates and India?

No, Sir, His Majesty's Government do not consider that the appointment of a second Royal Commission as desirable at the present time.

Is that decision based upon expediency or lack of sympathy with the idea?

It is based on a general consideration of all the circumstances of the case.

Considering that the trade of India is the largest in proportion of all the Colonies, is it not advisable to take India into consideration?

Technically India is not a Colony. The question should be addressed to the representative of the India Office in this House.

I can only deal with that particular part of the Empire with which I am permitted to deal.

asked whether the Government of the State of Victoria has inserted a new provision in the conditions of tender for supplies to that Government by which a preference is given to goods of British manufacture and to raw material of British origin; what is the percentage of such preference in the case of cotton goods in particular, and the average percentage on other commodities generally; whether such new provision was inserted in response to any request or representation by the Imperial Government; and whether steps will be taken to make these conditions known to manufacturers and merchants in the United Kingdom?

Yes, Sir. Preference is to be accorded to British as against foreign manufactures, but I am not aware that any fixed margin of preference has been laid down. In the case of cottons and certain other imported goods, however, the material must be of British manufacture, even if to be made up locally. It is provided that in certain cases British material is to be used for goods manufactured in the Commonwealth if Australian material is not obtainable. The provision was not inserted at the request of His Majesty's Government, but I understand that His Majesty's Trade Commissioner in Australia was in communication with the State authorities on the subject in the ordinary course of his duties. It is intended to announce the facts in this week's issue of the "Board of Trade Journal."

Canada and West Indies (Steamship Service)

asked whether the Government has received from the West Indian and Canadian Governments a request for co-operation in the establishment of a steamship service between Canada and the West Indies, including inter-island communication, and for facilitating mail and freight connections with British Atlantic ports?

New Zealand Defence Act

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will lay upon the Table the New Zealand Defence Act, together with such information as may be available concerning the working of the Act since it was passed?

The New Zealand Defence Acts of 1909 and 1910 were published in (Cd. 5135) and (Cd. 5582). The latest Report on the Defence Forces of New Zealand, which covers the period up to 27th July last, will be placed in the Library of the House.

Local and Imperial Taxation (Special Committee)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the evidence given before the Special Committee appointed to inquire into the incidence of Local and Imperial Taxation is restricted to Members sitting on the Government side of the House?

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask why it is that I have not received a reply to my application to be heard, which was merely acknowledged on 17th January last?

I will certainly make inquiries about that. I am quite certain they are anxious to receive evidence from anybody representing any point of view. I will communicate with them on that point. I was not aware that the hon. Gentleman had communicated his readiness to appear as a witness.

Land Valuation (Ireland)

asked when and by what authority the new system has been adopted in Ireland of valuing land for the purpose of increasing the valuation without examining the soil or even walking the land with the owner's knowledge; what authority is there for supposing that land can be correctly valued in this manner; under what statute the valuation of farms is increased without any change in the buildings; and what remedy, if any, is open to those whose valuations have been increased in this manner?

In the case of valuations made for rating purposes under the Valuation Acts I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given him by my predecessor on the 13th December last. Valuations of property passing on death have also been made in rural districts for Estate Duty purposes under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910 and earlier Acts, and in some of these cases (in which the amounts at stake have been generally trifling) information available at the Valuation Office, etc., has rendered it unnecessary to make a special inspection on the ground. In every case where parties interested are dissatisfied with the valuation made for Estate Duty purposes they can appeal to the referees.

Does the hon. Gentleman state that in no case has a special valuer been sent, because my information is to the contrary?

No, I did not say that in no case had a special valuer been sent. I said that in some cases no special valuer had been sent.

What is the nature of the evidence a valuer can obtain without going over the land?

Hampshire Regiment (Case of Thomas Chant)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Thomas Chant (Hampshire Regiment, No. 1684), ex-reservist, was called up for service 25th December, 1900, to 16th March, 1902, when he was discharged and signed his pay sheet for pay only, being at the time in ignorance that there was-a bounty of£15 due to him, and that bounty has, notwithstanding repeated requests for same, never been paid to T. Chant, while another reservist of the same regiment, who served from December, 1900, to October, 1901, and who signed his papers in a similar manner to Chant, was nevertheless, after a considerable interval of time, given the bounty money clue to him; if, in view of these facts and that T. Chant has always borne an excellent character, he will press that this small sum due to T. Chant be paid; and will he say if there is a time limit for the payment of State debts?

This case was fully considered when the claim was made in 1910, more than eight years after T. Chant's discharge from the Army. It is the practice of the War Office to refuse absolutely to entertain claims preferred after the lapse of six years from the time when they were due. There is no intention of departing from this decision.

Perhaps the hon. Member will be kind enough to give notice of that question.

Royal Flying Corps

asked how much it is proposed to expend this year on the completion of the dirigible airship "Delta" and on the new dirigible to be constructed at the Royal Aircraft Factory; and how much of the whole Vote for the air fleet is to be spent in connection with dirigible airships?

The sum of£2,500 will probably be spent out of this year's Estimates upon the airship "Delta." The design of the new dirigible will depend upon the results of the trials with the "Delta," and the amount to be expended this year on the new airship cannot therefore be stated.

Railway Accident (Royston)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fatal accident which occurred on 6th November, 1911, wherein two labourers were killed at Royston Station, Midland Railway, whilst propelling a lorry on the down line, and also to the report of the inspecting officer of the Board of Trade, Major J. W. Pringle, wherein he reports that propulsion is regarded as a most undesirable and unsafe method of working; and, having regard to the fact that propulsion is on the increase on different railway systems and the danger to railwaymen's lives involved in this system of working, he will take steps either for its entire abolition or for the adoption of a safety requirement that will enable the brake power to be applied immediately?

I have seen the inspecting officer's report on the accident in question, and the Board of Trade are in communication with the Midland Railway Company thereon.

S.S. "Titanic" (Collision with Iceberg)

Can the President of the Board of Trade give the House any information with regard to the alleged accident to the steamship "Titanic"?

I received a short time ago the following telegram from the White Star Line, Liverpool:—" Only information telegram from New York as follows: Newspapers wireless reports advise 'Titanic' collision iceberg, lat. 41.46 by 50.14 west. Women being put in lifeboats. Steamer 'Virginian' expects reach 'Titanic' 10.0 a.m. to-day. 'Olympic' and 'Baltic' proceeding 'Titanic' Have no direct information."

Bills Presented

Housing, Town Planning, Etc., Act (1909) Amendment Bill

"To amend The Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1909." Presented by Mr. CASSEL; supported by Viscount Wolmer, Mr. Duke, and Mr. Worthington-Evans; to be read a second time upon Friday, 17th May, and to be printed. [Bill 133.]

Mental Defect Bill

"To amend the Law relating to mentally defective and epileptic persons." Presented by Mr. HILLS; supported by Mr. Acland Allen, Mr. Dickinson, Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson, Sir Alfred Mond, and Mr. Pollock; to be read a second time upon Monday, 29th April, and to be printed. [Bill 134.]

Representation of the People (No. 2) Bill

"To amend the Law relating to the Representation of the People of the United Kingdom." Presented by Mr. CRAWSHAY-WILLIAMS; supported by Mr. Burt, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Crooks, Mr. Enoch Edwards, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Russell Rea, Mr. Walter Rea, and Mr. George Roberts; to be read a second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 135.]

Government of Ireland Bill

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [ 11th April ] "that leave be given to bring in a Bill for the Government of Ireland."—[ The Prime Minister. ]

Question again proposed. Debate resumed.

It is now a little more than a quarter of a century since, sitting on these benches, I heard Mr. Gladstone, amid scenes of unparalleled Parliamentary interest, introduce the first Home Rule Bill. I remember that Gangway entirely occupied by chairs, a unique sight, I believe, every Gallery crowded, every seat occupied, and more than occupied, by an anxious crowd of attentive Members. I am not going to dwell upon the past, but it is absolutely necessary, I think, in order that the House may understand the position in which we find ourselves to-day, that we should mark the changes which have come over the practical and political situation since 1886, and the yet more profound changes which have come over the policy which Mr. Gladstone's successor proposed from that box three nights ago. In 1886, as the House well knows, the Bill was rejected in the House of Commons and by the House of Commons, and the protagonists in that great contest were not the Opposition. We did our best, but the men who really caused the rejection of that Bill belonged to the other side of the House, and at that time were Members of the party opposite. It was my right hon. Friend (Mr. Joseph Chamberlain), the Lord Hartington of that day, the Mr. Goschen of that day, Sir George Trevelyan—those who had been Members of Mr. Gladstone's Cabinet—those were the protagonists who defeated the Bill, and it was by secessions of the most distinguished Members of the ranks opposite that Mr. Gladstone's first proposal was defeated. The result of that was naturally and inevitably that there was a permanent division in the ranks opposite, and those who supported Mr. Gladstone in his second attempt, the next Radical Ministry, came pledged, cheerfully or reluctantly, as the case may be, but still pledged, to carry out any scheme of Home Rule such as he might produce. The result of that was that there was no secession, no serious division in the ranks behind Mr. Gladstone, and it was left to the Second Chamber to defeat the Bill, and for the country to endorse the action of the Second Chamber.

It was with those two lessons behind them that the party now in power have approached this question. They have learned two things. They have learned that the people of this country, left to themselves by the ordinary exercise of their political reason had, to say the very least of it, no love of this separating and dividing policy and the moral of that was that you ought never to bring this as a fair and square issue before the electorate at any time or under any circumstances, and never since 1892 has it been brought before the electorate as a fair and square issue. The second moral was that the more the country look at a measure of this sort the less they like it, and that to allow the Second Chamber to carry out its legitimate duties and to insist that the electorate of this country shall be consulted before any such change is effected in our fundamental institutions is a fatal policy for all those who desire Home Rule and all those who are dependent upon the votes of those who desire Home Rule. That lesson has been learned as effectually as the former lesson, so that we now work against a Government who had the admirable ingenuity to take a double precaution against failure. They have taken care that the public should never be consulted before they bring in their Bill, and they have also taken care that they shall never be consulted afterwards. I pay my tribute of humble admiration to the political dexterity which has produced that very anti-democratic result from the party which is never weary of talking of democracy. These are the changes which have occurred in the last twenty-five years, in what I call the tactical situation.

I come now to the changes in the policy itself. Much, of course, of the Bill, as the right hon. Gentleman explained to us on Thursday, is familiar. We heard of guarantees. We heard of guarantees in 1886. We heard of guarantees in 1893, and we hear of guarantees in 1912. The guarantees in all these years were very much the same in character and were precisely the same in value. The symbol "O" is of equal value, and at all times, and for my part I never could seriously discuss or seriously believe in the efficacy of these guarantees which are intended purely for British consumption, and which take in no Irishman to whichever party he may belong. I need hardly say that there has been a great deal said about the supremacy of the British Parliament. How any lawyer of distinction, how any set of Gentlemen of the ability of the distinguished row I see before me, can talk of the supremacy of the British Parliament without a smile, passes my comprehension. There were some centuries in which our British Sovereigns described themselves as Kings of France. It appeared on all their coins, it appeared on all their formal State documents, but it did not make them Kings of France. They could not order an office boy about on the other side of the Channel, and the power of our Sovereigns as Kings of France is exactly on a parallel with that supremacy of the British Parliament about which you talk so much, about which you give such flamboyant orders to your draftsmen, but which you know, as well as I do, as practical politicians, never can be exercised at any critical moment when its exercise might be necessary. These are the old friends we find in the Bill.

There are some new inspirations, however, which I gather we are not to find in the Bill, but which figured largely in the Prime Minister's speech, and which will be present and must be present in the mind of every one of us, whatever our opinions may be, while the Bill is being discussed. Mr. Gladstone's Bill was intended, as he hoped and thought, to settle the Irish question, and the Irish question alone. He undertook, I think, an impossible task, but, at all events, he had that task clearly before him in precise outline, and he did his best to find some solution of the innumerable problems which it involved. But never did he say—I speak from memory and I have not verified it—I do not believe you will find anywhere anything to suggest that it ever for a moment crossed his mind that Home Rule for Ireland was merely the first, perhaps the most immediate, and possibly the most necessary preliminary of a system of Home Rule all round. I may be wrong.

Mr. Gladstone issued a manifesto in 1886 in favour of Home Rule all round.

I do not remember. The hon. Member will forgive me, and I bow to his recollection, but I confess that it is with the deepest surprise I learn that Mr. Gladstone in 1886 issued a manifesto in favour of Home Rule all round.

A Parliament for Ireland, a Parliament for Scotland, a Parliament for England, and a Parliament for Wales. I think that incident has been forgotten by his biographer. I can assure the House that I want to deal to-day with the present insistent realities of the situation, and not to enter into controversy with hon. Members on either side of the House as to the historic past. Whatever Mr. Gladstone may have thought or said, we have it now quite clearly stated—well, "clearly" is perhaps stretching the language of the Prime Minister—that in his opinion this is merely an instalment of a general system of federation which is going to be substituted for the ancient Constitution of this country. I do not believe that the number of people who have thought over that problem, and who think it possible, or who, thinking it possible, also think it desirable, is more than fractional. Let us put that point aside for the moment. What I want to drive home, if I can, to the conscience of the House is this: Every Clause contained in this Bill has to be considered, not merely as it affects Ireland, not merely as it touches England or the interests, or the hopes, or the ideals of Gentlemen below the Gangway, but as it will be applicable to England, to Scotland, and to Wales. There is no possible way of avoiding that. It is quite true that the right hon. Gentleman has never told us when he is going to bring in the English, the Scotch, or the Welsh Home Rule Bill, nor whether it is going to precede the Bill for creating a Second Chamber or whether it is going to follow it. It is one of the pledges of the Government for some remote and dim future. But what we have really to remember is that you cannot plan part of this new building without having clearly presented to your mind what it is to be like on completion—in what shape the Constitution of this country is going to be left when the present occupants of the Front Bench opposite meet their approaching doom. They have pulled down the Second Chamber as it came to us from our forefathers. Then they have said that they are going to put another Second Chamber in its place, and they have not told us what it is going to be. They have destroyed part of our historic and ancestral dwelling, and they have not even given us the plan of the new building they are going to set up in its place. While we are waiting for a Second Chamber on that plan we are also to enjoy a one-sided federalism, also for an indefinite future, living all this time in a temporary building without even knowing the plan of the permanent structure which is some day or other in the remote future to take its place, and without, I must honestly say, having any special ground for believing that the Government themselves have any plan. And yet is not it clear that, difficult as the problem of Home Rule for Ireland may be, the problem of Home Rule for Ireland as a model for Home Rule all round is ten fold a more difficult question?

The Prime Minister introduced in his speech some saving words: I think they ran, that the special circumstances of each case, or something like that, may be permitted to guide them in framing a separate Bill for Ireland, and then, when the turn of England, Scotland, and Wales came, considering each on its own merits and framing for each a separate Bill on separate lines. In the first place I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that such a method of producing a Federal Government has never been tried in the world before. What would have been thought of the founders of the American Constitution if they decided first on the powers of Massachusetts and left the powers of New York undecided to some remote future? What would have been thought of the framers of the Australasian or the South African Constitution if they had decided upon the powers to be given to this or that part of the country in relation to the Central Government, and left the remainder entirely outside their plan to be decided as circumstances might dictate at some remote future. Such a method of dealing with a great constitutional question is absolutely unprecedented in the whole history of the world, and it is not only unprecedented but, on the merits, quite plainly it is futile and absurd: and I will tell you why. We will say that you have settled Ireland, then come to the case of Scotland or England — which is to come first? [HON. MEMBERS: "Scotland," "Wales.'"] At all events, it matters little. If you take one of the component parts of the present United Kingdom and deal with it separately, directly you deal with it separately this problem will come up every time: are these powers less or greater than those which the House in its initial effort at federation has given to Ireland? If the powers are less, and if it is a Scotch measure the Scotchmen would say, "Why are we less worthy of having these powers than our Irish fellow-countrymen?" and I do not suppose that the Englishman will be much behind the Scotchman in making the same demand. Take the other hypothesis. Suppose that the powers are greater than those given to Ireland, then conceive the turmoil on the other side of the Channel, conceive the passionate debates in the Chamber sitting in Dublin. The blood even of the nominated House of Lords would glow with patriotic fervour over this difference, and you would have to remodel your old Bill and level up your old Bill to your new ideals of federal powers. I do really think that any hon. Gentleman who pictures the prospect will see how utterly absurd it is to deal with a detailed system of Home Rule for one fraction of the United Kingdom without taking the whole of your scheme into consideration at the same time and laying down its broad outlines for carrying it into effect. In the meanwhile, and before you have accomplished that impossible task of dealing with Scotland and dealing with England and Wales on precisely the same lines as you are now dealing with Ireland, before you come to that task, which may be a remote task, under what kind of a lop-sided federal system are you asking us to live?

The right hon. Gentleman pointed to the example of other countries, and he said that they are happy under a federal system. They are not happy under a federal system like this: unsymmetrical, botched, done in parts without any consideration of the whole, utterly unworkmanlike regarded as part of the federal system, and utterly unworthy of your statesmanship. Is this imitating the architects of great federal systems beyond the seas? I remember a very indifferent amateur actor endeavouring to imitate a distinguished actor of our earlier days. He never got beyond a perfect imitation of his limp. And this limping federal constitution may be worth discussing as an Irish question and as a solution of an Irish question, profoundly as I disbelieve in it. When Mr. Gladstone unfolded his scheme for dealing with Ireland it did not suffer from these irreparable stupidities and defects of dealing with one fraction of the Kingdom and only promising vaguely that it would deal with other fractions of the Kingdom probably in a different fashion, a fashion which they neither know nor care to communicate to the House. May I, before I come to the details of the Bill, make one observation on the bearing which all this has upon an argument which, in my conviction, has done more to influence the ordinary English and Scotch politician than any other that has been delivered in favour of Home Rule. I mean the argument drawn in the overwork of this Assembly. That used to be the constant text of Mr. Gladstone. The right hon. Gentleman has not fallen behind Mr. Gladstone in the emphasis which he gave to it or in the clearness with which he expounded it. The overwork of this House—when we are going to be occupied this Session and the next Session and the Session after with Home Rule for Ireland; and when that is over you have before you the reconstitution of the Second Chamber, Home Rule for Scotland on different lines but equal, Home Rule for Wales equal but different, and Home Rule for England equal again but different. And this is the programme of legislation which these Home Rulers bring forward, because they say Home Rule is the only way in which you can lighten the burden of Parliament.

I was amazed not only at the general absurdity of the argument of overwork, but at the absurdity of the particular example which the right hon. Gentleman gave. He gave a series of questions which I presume were drawn from some actual concrete question paper, of which I know nothing, and he said, "Is not it intolerable that this House should be asked to deal with this enormous variety of topics at Question Time?" Of those questions three, I think, or four dealt with problems entirely outside the United Kingdom from which this House cannot escape. How about the questions that did refer to affairs within the United Kingdom? There was one about the rifle. Are you going to have two rifles, an Irish rifle and an English rifle? [HON. MEMBERS: "Ulster rifles."] What I say in reference to the question about the rifles is, surely the right hon. Gentleman who represents the War Office does not mean that there should be two rifles, for one of which the Irish Government would be entirely responsible, and as to which no questions need be asked, while the other clearly would be an English national rifle, with which no doubt my right hon. Friend opposite would find leisure to deal. That is an absurdity. Another question was in reference to fishing in the Moray Firth. I have too lively a recollection of all the difficulties involved in these questions of fishing rights to think that the right hon. Gentleman could mention fishing in the Moray Firth without some prickings of—not of conscience. What is the main difficulty about the fishing in the Moray Firth? The difficulty, put broadly, is that you have a conflict of interest between English trawlers and Scotch line fishers, and between foreign trawlers and Scotch line fishers. Is that going to be settled by the Scotch Parliament solely without consultation with England? This House will never escape from that problem. It means that under a Home Rule Bill, as I think you will find, that it must come here, because it touches most difficult and delicate international problems. I think that the third question which the right hon. Gentleman mentions was one about the post office in Ballagha-dereen, and when he said that I asked myself how did he suppose that that was going to be taken away from this House, I thought surely he cannot be going to separate the Post Offices. I did him the great injustice to suppose this of the right hon. Gentleman. But I was amazed that he did not take the trouble to justify the separation of the Post Offices. He quoted all these federal constitutions. Has Canada got a post office in each province? Has Australia got a separate Post Office in each Colony? I need not ask about the Cape, because the Cape has shown its dislike of the whole principle of Home Rule by the Constitution which you have given it. But why have you given it to Ireland? I am utterly puzzled at this departure from all common sense, from all sound precedent. I have thought it out, and I think the reason must be that hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway insist on having the patronage which naturally accompanies it. It is very important. I do not at all deny that it may smooth their way, and they will be able, I suppose, in every village in Ireland to appoint a postmaster and postman who think soundly upon the subject of Home Rule. They may find, as their predecessors have found in Ireland, that this power of giving away offices on occasion greatly smoothes the wheels of Government. [An HON. MEMBER: "Which predecessors?"] When it was done at the Union, it was called bribery, but I do not know that there is any difference in principle. The Postmaster - General, who is going to speak, no doubt, will be able to explain why, in adopting this beginning of a federal system, he has departed from all English-speaking federal practice, as far as I know, and why, when the federal scheme is completed, and we have before us a systematic edifice of a separate England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland, each one of these is to have its own patronage and its own post office. Those questions about the substance of the Bill really have more reference to the right hon. Gentleman's preliminary remarks on Thursday last than to what was his exposition of the Bill itself. Let me say a few words upon the narrower issue of this particular contribution to our universal federal system—the particular method the right hon. Gentleman proposes to begin the new policy of splitting up into five separate fragments the United Kingdom. We no doubt shall discuss at great length the money part of this question, and I do not propose to do more than ask one or two questions. As I understand the matter, we are giving under this Bill to Ireland not £2,000,000 a year more than Ireland ought to have when she is an integral part of the United Kingdom, but £2,000,000 more than she ought to have on the principles of the right hon. Gentleman himself.

I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman takes that view, because it is not as if he thought that Ireland ought to have the advantage from her partnership with the richer country. He took exactly the other line. He spoke of Ireland as if Ireland was a poor hanger-on of some millionaire who had had the advantage of living in a millionaire's house on the fat of the land, but had to go into the world and then had to live, as the phrase is, by making his mode of life and expenditure in accordance with what I think is called his status in life—according to the amount of money he happens to have. Ireland, according to the right hon. Gentleman has enjoyed the luxury of far too expensive a postal service. Ireland, through her partnership with this wealthy country has had far too liberal a system of old age pensions. Ireland has, through her partnership with this country, been able to settle the land question in a manner far beyond her own proper means, and which she had no real right to ask for. That is the "poor-relation" theory of Ireland. I do not agree with it. I think it is wrong from beginning to end. But if it be right, why did not the Government think of it a little sooner? The right hon. Gentleman says they have got too much in old age pensions. Who gave it? He says they have got too much in insurance, and that they have got an Insurance Bill which they never could have afforded if they had been left to themselves. Who gave it to them? Again, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is the accident that it suited the Government to bring in those two Bills before the Home Rule Bill that has given these things to Ireland, and I do think as they hold that theory, that it would have been a great economy to the British taxpayer, if they had carried out their theory with some degree of consistency. They have shown no consistency. I do not understand—if they think that Ireland ought no more to be allowed to finance her social schemes in partnership with England and Scotland—why they make their arrangements, or model, as if she had an absolute right and title to all that we foolishly, illegitimately, and stupidly gave to her under the guidance of the right hon. Gentlemen opposite before you bring in your system of Home Rule. It is really absurd to have it both ways. I think that the true position of the United Kingdom is that it should be treated as a whole, and that we should not look too minutely to see whether this or that part gives as much to the general Exchequer as it gets out directly or indirectly. That is the Unionist view of finance. It is not the view of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. They think, on the contrary, that Ireland should finance herself, that her whole scheme of social reform, of all the methods by which she is to deal with problems which are surely as insistent with her as they are with us, should be based upon her more modest means, and that she has no more right to indulge in all these luxuries of social reform than a man in poor circumstances has to give pearls and diamonds to his wife.

I do not know whether the Postmaster-General is going to tell us what the Government theory is upon that question. I should like to have it, because it does really cut at the very root of the general arrangements which this Bill proposes for our poorer neighbours across the Channel. I want to ask a question upon a subject which is also connected with finance, and its ramifications and references—the Reserved Services. I did not understand from the right hon. Gentleman who was going to control all these services. I understand that the Imperial Government manages the Land Commission, Old Age Pensions, and the Insurance Act. Does the Imperial Government manage the police?

And by managing the police it gives them orders. Who gives the orders to the police for which the Imperial Exchequer pays? We pay for the police for six years. Is it the Home Secrtary who gives directions, or some officer responsible to the Cabinet of the Crown? If it is, then I do not see how the Irish Government are to be made responsible for law and order. If it is not, what an anomaly is that. We are to pay all the great sums required to keep this magnificent force in existence, but we are to have nothing whatever to do with their control. Let me illustrate the matter as it appears to me. Supposing these police for whom we pay are used against Ulster, are you, or are you not, going to have questions in this House as to the orders given to the constabulary in dealing with Ulster? If you are going to have questions in this House on that point, evidently the House it not relieved of any questions dealing with law and order in Ireland. Any questions about evictions in Connemara, or wherever they may be, will come before this House exactly as now. On the other hand, if you give the opposite answer and tell me that, while we pay for the police, they are to be used exactly as the Irish Executive chooses within the limits of Ireland, you may have to sit here helpless while those whom you are paying, and whom you have appointed, are doing things which would be regarded with horror by the British Government and the British public. My third question connected with finance deals with Customs and Excise. And here I feel that our information is necessarily so meagre that I am not sure, after having most carefully listened to and read the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, that I really understand what the plan of the Government is. For instance, I am not sure whether or not it will be in the power of the Irish Government to use the margin of 10 per cent. on Customs given them by the Bill, to use it differentially, not against this country, but as between foreign countries. If they can use it as between foreign countries, you will get into a most appalling mess over the whole of the network of the most-favoured-nation treaties by which your commerce is at present bound. If, on the other hand, they cannot use that 10 per cent, margin in the way they please, you impose one of many restrictions upon their liberty which must arouse resentment under the special circumstances and the special controversies which now attach in every country in the world to tariffs, and which must more and more absorb the attention of the Irish Government. On these points I am not sure that I understand the Government proposals, and I forbear from criticising them until I do understand them. But surely I am not wrong in this further commentary I make, which is, that however you doctor, alter, limit and restrict the powers you give to the Irish Exchequer, it is inevitable that, under your scheme, there should be Customs barriers of one sort or another between Ireland and Great Britain I do not think that can possibly be avoided. I do not mean to press the details, but I should like the Government to save the time of the House, and interrupt me if I am wrong, and tell me that it is a mistake to suppose that, under their Bill, it is possible, and it is practically certain, that there will be Customs barriers between Ireland and Great Britain. I think I am justified in taking the silence as giving general assent to my words. That is not a thing which is allowed, as far as I am aware, in those federal States for which the right hon. Gentleman professes so great an admiration, and of which he makes so inveterate a topic. It has always been regarded as an intolerable nuisance within the federal area to have those Customs barriers, and when I remember that this is to be the model for future federal schemes and that the Customs barriers which you are now setting up between Ireland and Great Britain will in future be set up between Wales and England and between Scotland and England, I do think the Government have been wild, wild in the scheme which in a rash moment they have laid before the House. I do not believe that scheme will stand.

I heard the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond), and without surprise, say that he was going to recommend this Bill to the Convention; and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman opposite felt no more surprise than I did. He was well assured of that valuable support, but I would respectfully warn the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Waterford when he .goes to the Convention not to be too sure that the Bill introduced into this House is the Bill which is going to pass this House. Subservient as this House may be to the will of the Executive, I do not believe that you will get sane Englishmen and Scotchmen to adopt so preposterous a suggestion as that we should at this time of the day so far devise this future federal kingdom as to have Customs barriers between the different parts, which is the one thing which every architect of a federal system has striven with all his might to avoid. And observe that what you have given, while it is far too great to be tolerated, as I think, by the majority of this country is far less than the Irish are bound to desire and bound to claim. I am not going to discuss Tariff Reform, but I am going to say what I think everybody will agree with who knows anything about it, namely, that if the Irish are allowed they will certainly do their best to use every liberty of dealing with their own tariffs that will improve their own trade. I believe you have given them enough power to upset your general fiscal system. I know you have given them enough power to introduce these Customs areas into the very heart of the United Kingdom. You have not given them enough power to deal with their tariffs, as Canada and Australia and the Cape deal with their tariffs, and how can you expect, getting so much and at the same time giving so little, that you can possibly produce a contented Ireland. If you said, as Mr. Gladstone practically said, the taxation of the United Kingdom must be one system of taxation and one alone, you might have done that, and you might well say that is the principle laid down in the Bill. But you have no principle laid down in this Bill. On the contrary you have publicly proclaimed that you are ready to go further than any other architects of a federal system in giving separate units of that federal system power to deal with their own Customs and Excise. Having done that, how are you going to resist the further gifts and privileges that will undoubtedly be asked for, and give to a central Irish Government the power of using Irish taxation for the purpose of helping Irish industry and Irish commerce which all our great self-governing dependencies now possess.

The only other comment I mean to make upon the details of the measure, as we have it at present, relates to the representation of Ireland in this House. That, as we all know, was felt by Mr. Gladstone to be a problem of exceeding difficulty which could not be met with or dealt with logically, but which you have to face one way or the other, and in one way or the other always met by the same irresistible array of unanswerable criticisms. The Government have tried the middle course. The middle course does not seem to me to carry with it any of the safety which is commonly supposed to wait on that course, and which suggests that the Irish representation should be continued in this House so that Irishmen should still have the power of dealing with Scottish, and English, and Welsh affairs, while Scotchmen, Englishmen, and Welshmen cannot deal with Irish affairs, and yet, and simultaneously, that that representation should be far below or considerably below that which Ireland is numerically entitled to. I have some sympathy for the arguments which the right hon. Gentleman adduces in favour of that scheme. He said that probably so far as parties are at present divided, we may expect there will be thirty-four, I think it was, Nationalist representatives, and the remainder will come from Ulster, and that thirty-four Irish votes, Nationalist votes will probably not be able to turn the scale or balance parties in this House. I was touched by that argument. I like these numerical estimates of Ministerial virtue. The chorus of eighty syrens is irresistible, no wax in the ears, no binding to masks, will be sufficient to prevent the Leader of a party in want of votes from yielding to that temptation.

The right hon. Gentleman speaks with more knowledge of one party. Reduce the eighty to forty, and there is some hope that the power of resistance may be adequate to temptations of that magnitude. The right hon. Gentleman suffered much, and his predecessors suffered much, and it may be that with thirty-two Members the Irish will be powerless, but if they are powerless, will they be contented? Remember what you are going to do. You are retaining the power of taxing Ireland; you are retaining all sorts of powers, which you may or may not be able to exercise, in connection with questions in which Ireland is vitally interested: tariff questions, questions of foreign affairs, and so forth. What your policy will be in tariffs and in foreign affairs depends upon the majority in this House, and is Ireland not to have her fair voice in deciding what that majority is to be? At any rate, will not that be the Irish view? And how are you going to resist it? I really wish hon. Gentlemen would put themselves in the position of a British Government carrying out a policy objected to by the majority from Ireland, and which vitally affects Ireland. How are you going to deal with the arguments of thirty-four Gentlemen for certain, and forty possibly, who will day after day urge in this House about the under-representation of Ireland in matters which affect vitally the interest of Ireland? I do not think you will get peace in this House, and I do not envy the Minister who has got to answer that argument, and I do not believe you will be able to answer it.

So there are all those difficulties, and I will not dwell upon the further difficulties, or enumerate more of them, which arise from your inveterate folly in trying to reverse the true progress of National and Imperial development. Every great country in the world has been trying to draw closer the units of which it is composed, and where they have failed their position excites the profoundest misgivings of their best friends. Countries which are unable —and I believe there are such—through racial or other prejudices, to draw closer the separate units of which they are composed, they are the countries whose future we look forward to with the greatest misgivings. This drawing together of great nations, a cause mark you for which Europe and America have been flooded with blood in the course of the memory of men now living, in the course of my own memory, that cause surely has behind it something more than mere prejudice. We look, and I think all nations look, to the future with some anxiety and with some misgivings. Nobody can call to mind the events even in the last few months, nobody can have listened to the speech which the First Lord of the Admiralty delivered a few weeks ago, without being sure that in the minds of Ministers responsible for the safety and honour of this country great anxieties as to the future prevail, and must prevail. And if you cast your eye over the world, and if you consider, for example, the relations between East and West, as well as between portions of the West, so much the greater is the anxiety which you will feel. It is a sort of dumb instinct which asks for the protection of great social communities, and which is causing our Colonies, the United States of America, Germany, I say nothing of France, which has carried out unification to the highest possible perfection, and Italy, which is causing them all to feel that if they are to hold their place in the world it must be not by disintegration, but by union.

I cannot well say to the House how deeply I feel the argument that I have just addressed to them, conscious as I am that it is not an argument very easy to be understood, nor one that appeals readily to the general body of mankind. They say, "The United States gets on very well." The United States is composed of many different states; but the United States is the United States, because, in the first place, starting as absolutely separate units, they first insisted, against enormous difficulties, in drawing the bonds of unity closer and closer, and then were prepared to fight to the end to make that union yet closer. I say nothing of Germany. But look at Australia and South Africa—look, above all, at South Africa. South Africa is a great Colony, a great Dependency, a great oversea Dominion, conscious not only of its place in the Empire, but of its own special difficulties in the face of its own special dangers. I am perfectly certain—I know as a fact—that one of the great considerations that South African statesmen had in their minds when they threw over all your schemes of Home Rule and all your schemes of Federalism, and adopted a system of close unity, was that only a country so constituted could do its best rapidly, decisively, and conclusively against some imminent danger. What is your position going to be with this lop-sided Federalism in time of difficulty? This Constitution is a fair-weather Constitution. When you have batoned and bayonetted Ulster into an admiration for Home Rule I imagine there may be halcyon days in which nothing will be remembered but the nice things the Prime Minister said to the hon. Member for Waterford, and the nice things the hon. Member for Waterford said to the Prime Minister, and all will go smoothly.

But that is when the horizon is not overcast. Supposing this country is in the throes of some great struggle, in which the Irish Parliament, and possibly a minority of the British Parliament, take one side, what are you going to do then? You have to strain every nerve—men, money, all the sinews of war. You have to ask each part of the United Kingdom to give you its quota. Will you get it from Ireland? You have got, I understand, Imperial Customs House officers. They are your officers. They are going to collect your taxes. Are they going to be protected by your police? Is the appeal going to be to your Courts? Are all these transactions going to take place in a country over which you have really a grip, which is incorporated with your own? Your position will be no better than that of British Governments has been before when they attempted to tax other dependencies who were either not represented or were imperfectly represented in the British Parliament. You will not be able to say, "Well, there are forty Irish Gentlemen in this House, and Ireland is bound by the decision of the Assembly of which those forty Gentlemen are a part," because that is not an adequate representation of Ireland. You will not be able to do anything or say anything in the Irish Parliament; you will have no representative there, and if you had it would not strengthen your case; it would weaken it. It is impossible to doubt that, as a self-preserving organism, you are fatally weakening us by this ill-omened and preposterous instalment of Home Rule all round.

I can understand people saying, " The Irish are a separate nation, different in blood, different in civilisation, which we coerced by our superior strength, which the higher morality requires us to free." I can understand that. But that is not what you are doing. If that is your argument, if that is the reason you are putting forward this absurd scheme, do you think that this scheme can last a decade? If what moves you is the thought that we have no right to deal with Ireland because Ireland is a separate nation, with rights absolutely divorced from ours, what are your safeguards 1 What right have you to have safeguards? What is the supremacy of the British Parliament? What right have you to have a supremacy? I am fully aware that the hon. and learned Member for Waterford said on Thursday that he perfectly acquiesced in the subordination of the Irish Parliament, and, through the Irish Parliament, of Ireland to Great" Britain—[An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear"] —and I saw that announcement described in some London journal as important. The hon. and learned Gentleman will not think that I mean any disrespect to his great abilities or to the deserved position which he holds in the councils of the Nationalist party, when I say that I think that statement is of no importance whatever. It is through no fault of the hon. and learned Gentleman himself, but through the inherent logic of the situation. If he and his Friends, or if any party behind them in Ireland, or any sympathisers such as the hon. Gentleman who cheered just now, really believed in Ireland as a nation —a separate nation in the full sense of that word—they cannot be, and they ought not to be, content with this makeshift arrangement.

But whatever the hon. and learned Gentleman says, however anxious, and naturally anxious, he may be to get one step along the inevitable road, will that step be the last? Can that step be the last? Clearly it cannot. My view, of course, is very different. I desire that Irishmen should be as free as Englishmen and Scotchmen. I desire that they should, with Englishmen and Scotchmen, carry on in the future, as they have in the past, the great co-operative work of Empire. I hold that the existing system does give Ireland freedom. It gives Ireland freedom in the only sense in which the word "freedom" has ever been used by writers. It gives them their full, at this moment more than their full, representation in the common councils of the Empire, far more than their full legitimate power in this House, far more than the legitimate power which their numbers would give them in this House, owing to the balance of Parliamentary powers with which the House is well acquainted. That is freedom, and it is more than freedom. If you say, "That is not enough; you must go further; you must do something to satisfy the legitimate claims of nationality," then I say you are taking a fatal step. One of two things must happen, and it depends on the accidents of future history which happens. You will have the Irish claiming, and from their point of view legitimately claiming, more and more freedom from any control, shadowy or otherwise, which this House may presume to impose. They will be resentful, more resentful of the powers of this House than the Parliament of Massachusetts was of the interference of the British Parliament 160 years ago—and they will have reason. In that case probably, if things are perfectly smooth, if all is going on summer seas with sunny skies, this overworked House may have again to consider and reconsider and yet reconsider further claims, daily made from the other side of St. George's Channel, eating into this arrangement, and increasing the grudging privileges—grudging from the point of view of nationality—which this Bill contains. But things may take another turn. It may be found that you have given too much, and that what you have given makes the system of the United Kingdom an unworkable one. The system of England and Scotland was unworkable during the great war of the Spanish Succession, and the situation was saved by the Union of England and Scotland. The situation was impossible during the great revolutionary wars as between Great Britain and Ireland, and you cured it by the Union. If the same problem comes before you under an equally menacing aspect, you will be driven to adopt the same solution, and even if it be by blood and iron, you will have to withdraw privileges which I think, if Ireland be a nation, are not nearly enough, and which, if Ireland be not a nation, are far greater than you ought ever to have given.

5.0 P.M.

Those of us in this House who on political grounds have most reason to regret the return to our Debates of so formidable a controversialist as the right hon. Gentleman, are not amongst the last to welcome on personal grounds his return to this House. The reception which he received from all quarters of the House of Commons to-day was, as we anticipated, the prelude to a speech of equal interest, eloquence and force. The right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, advanced many arguments against the policy of the Bill which is now before the House, but the one to which he himself declared that he attached most importance, the one which carried the most conviction to his own mind, and was most responsible for guiding his actions, was that he held that in proposing this measure of Home Rule for Ireland we were going contrary to a world tendency; that while the rest of the nations of mankind were unifying their Governments, we were proceeding to disintegrate ours. The Leader of the Opposition, in his recent speech at Belfast, laid much stress upon the same argument. I remember a speech also by the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University dealing with the same point. It is clear that the Opposition attach prime weight to this consideration. They hold that it gives a sound philosophical foundation to their opposition to Home Rule. I venture to suggest that the answer is this: It is true that in our age in many countries throughout the world a unifying process is proceeding. But it is also the case that countries with large areas and large populations find it necessary to have above the areas of local government, above what we might call the county area, two governing institutions in the hierarchy of the legislature. They find they need State governments; they find that they need also a central national government. Those countries which only had State governments, like South Africa, like Australia, like some other countries which have been mentioned, found it essential that they should establish as the crown of their governing system a unifying and national government as well. Those which, like ourselves, have only one central national Government find it necessary to establish between that and the county area a system of State legislatures.

When the United States finds that one of its territories, hitherto not endowed with autonomous institutions, reaches a size, that its population reaches such numbers, as will enable it to govern itself, the central government devolves from the centre powers of self-government to that territory. When the German Empire quite recently found that the provinces of Alsace-Lorraine had reached a position of political development which in the opinion of the German Government would warrant the conferment upon them of some measure of autonomy, the German Government ran counter to what the right hon. Gentleman said was a universal world-wide movement, and devolved from the centre to the localities self-governing powers. No, there is neither a unifying nor a disintegrating process at work in the world; there is what one might call a groping, unmethodical, illogical movement of the nations of mankind to try and find the most convenient form of government, and the most convenient governing areas. The chief question is not which comes first in any State, the establishment of State institutions, or the establishment of national institutions; the important thing is that sooner or later the right hierarchy of institutions, as I have called it should be established.

In the arguments which the right hon. Gentleman in his final and weighty words addressed to the House, he warned us in the interests of Empire against breaking up the central Constitution. That argument, in the same words, might have been advanced to this House at any time whenever a question of setting up a colonial constitution has been before it. Indeed, I well remember sitting on this bench six years ago and hearing the right hon. Gentleman, at that box, use terms almost identical with those he has now employed. He spoke with equal emphasis. unity. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite often tell us in another sphere of politics to consult the Dominions; to consider their views. This is a matter in which the views of the Dominions are entitled to weight for it is not purely a matter of domestic politics. The strength, and also the credit, of the Empire as a whole is involved in the manner in which we deal with the question of Ireland. From every quarter of the Empire year after year have come resolutions, appeals, petitions, from Parliament after Parliament in favour of Home Rule. Five times have the Canadian House of Commons passed Addresses to the Crown appealing for Home Rule for Ireland.

In 1903. The Australian Parliament, again, has done the same. One of the first actions of that Parliament, after the establishment of a Central Dominion Parliament in Australia, was to pass an Address in favour of Home Rule being granted to Ireland. We have only to read our newspapers in these days to find that in all quarters of the Empire statesmen, not only of Irish race and nationality, but such statesmen as Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Sir Joseph Ward, Mr. Fisher, General Botha, and many more, have sent messages to the home country expressing their own opinion and that of the people among whom they live, in favour of the measure which is now before the House. From the grave Cecil Rhodes, an empire builder if ever there was one, speaks to this House in favour of the granting of a similar measure of self-government to Ireland as those which he found so successful in other parts of the Empire.

I do not propose to follow the right hon. Gentleman into his retrospect of past events. In regard to the title of this House elected at the last General Election to legislate on this question I will only say this: that there was not a man in Great Britain, at the last election who, if he voted for the Liberal party, did not know that he was voting for the Parliament Bill in order that the road might be clear through the veto of the House of Lords for measures of Liberal reform—and first and foremost amongst them for a measure of Home Rule for Ireland.

The right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, urged that a new and grave objection to our proposals arises from the fact that they are avowedly a preliminary to further and later measures of devolution. When, he said, we get to Committee every line of this Bill must be scrutinised not merely in its reference to Ireland, but also as to its future application to other portions of the United Kingdom. That is not so. The Government do not accede to that proposition. Our measure must indeed not be inconsistent with the further measures which are contemplated in the future. It may point the way to them. But we have never said, and do not hold, that in every particular, and in every detail what is provided for Ireland must necessarily be provided for other portions of the United Kingdom. Different needs in different circumstances may require different ways to meet them. The right hon. Gentleman referred to what he termed the piecemeal character of this method of setting up a Federal Constitution, or of setting up any Constitution. He said it was unprecedented, futile, ridiculous. Sir, the present constitutional arrangements of the British Empire have not grown full blown in a night. No Siévès has sat down in his library to draw up a logical, Imperial Constitution for the British Dominions. If we had in this measure proposed to Parliament a complete, logical, carefully co-ordinated, symmetrically planned Constitution for every part of the British Islands, to be established throughout them all simultaneously, I can well imagine the speech the right hon. Gentleman would have delivered to this House, tearing to tatters a piece of legislation which he would have described as being a mere scheme of political pedantry, and denouncing the Government for having, out of the mere desire for constitutional tidiness, forced on changes before they were ripe, and have ridiculed that because it was necessary to deal with the Irish problem the Government should prematurely deal with the other problems as well. I say to the House, following the right hon. Gentleman, that I would much prefer to face the criticism to which we have just listened on our present scheme, than to face the speech that the right hon. Gentleman would have made had we followed the course which to-day he has invited as to take. Our method, I venture to claim, is consonant with the very genius of our Constitution and with our history. Our Constitution has not been made. It has not been planned like an architect's drawing, logical, symmetrical, complete. It has grown in accordance with the needs of the times. That is its strength. It is in harmony with all the best traditions of the development of our Constitution that we make the proposals that are now before the House.

There is one other point with which I should like to deal before I turn to the right hon. Gentleman's criticism of our scheme of finance. He has questioned our proposals in regard to the number of Irish representatives. He is not satisfied with forty-two. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman considers that our suggested number of forty-two Irish representatives in this House is too many or whether he thinks that it is too few? When we get into Committee it will be most interesting to see which form of Amendment he will support. The Irish Members, everyone agrees, are too numerous now in proportion to population, but I would venture to point this out to hon. Members opposite— a consideration which they seldom bear in mind—that the Act of Union which gives its name to their party, which they are here primarily to maintain, the Act of Union, which in its text declares itself to be a treaty embodying articles of agreement between the Parliament of Great Britain and the then Parliament of Ireland, declares that Ireland shall have for ever in the Parliament of the United Kingdom one hundred Members. That is an article in a treaty which cannot be broken or abrogated except with the consent of the two parties, and hon. Members opposite cannot with honour, without breaking the faith of England pledged to Ireland at the time of the Union, reduce the Irish representatives to below one hundred Members. Therefore it is only by a general settlement such as we propose that this House will ever be able without ignominy to reduce to proper proportions the number of Irish representatives in this House.

The Church was guaranteed in the Act of Union, but it was disestablished with the consent of both parties. Now I come to the financial proposals of the Bill, proposals on which I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman did not look with a wholly impartial eye. Let me first ask the House to consider what are the conditions of the problem with which the Government has to deal, assuming that hon. Members opposite will do us the honour for the moment to suppose that there is to be a scheme of Home Rule at all. The first and outstanding fact is that in this year the revenue from Ireland is short of expenditure upon Irish purposes by a sum of £l,50O,000. I know there are some students of this question who have suggested that Irish revenue should be taken as if it was revenue as collected and not revenue as contributed, and that that would show upon the credit side of Ireland an additional sum of about £2,000,000 which would enable the account comfortably to balance. That cannot be done. Irish revenue as collected is not true Irish revenue—it is not revenue contributed by the Irish taxpayer. For example, large sums are collected in Ireland in the form of duty upon spirits, these spirits being consumed in Great Britain, and unless you are to apply the doctrine that it is the producer who pays the tax and not the consumer, a doctrine which in that connection I do not think anyone in this House will advance, you must hold the view that the revenue paid by the Irish taxpayer is only the revenue on so much of those spirits as are consumed in Ireland, and that revenue alone can be put to the credit of the Irish account. Secondly, if we had taken the collected revenue instead of the true revenue as our basis the whole scheme of finance could at any time have been upset by the transfer of those spirits in bond to Great Britain, and by the payment of the taxation in this country, instead of in Dublin, or wherever the spirits may have been manufactured. That is the first fact—that there is this deficit of £1,500,000.

The second consideration is that it is neither practicable, nor politic, nor just to throw upon the new Irish Government the whole burden of that deficit. That deficit is the result not of any action on the part of the Irish; it is the result of the British management of Ireland's finances. Her revenue is controlled by others, her expenditure is controlled by others. The deficit arises from the fact that her revenue is paid upon the Irish scale, while her expenditure is based upon the British scale, and it would be a proposition obviously wrong and indefensible if, having accustomed the Irish people to this rate of expenditure, we were to throw upon them the burden of finding the necessary taxation to meet the whole of that expenditure, with the result that the new Irish Parliament in its first year would have to face a deficit of nearly one-fifth of the whole of its revenue, and would have to increase all its taxation by an amount varying from 15 per cent, to 20 per cent. The next consideration which has to be borne in mind is that on the other hand it is not right that this deficit should permanently be borne by the British taxpayer. If Ireland prospers, as we hope she will, then in equity the burden upon the British taxpayer pro tanto should be lessened, and I feel sure that the Irish people themselves would desire that. Possessing self-government, enjoying greater prosperity, they would not wish, it would not be consonant with their national pride, to depend for the revenue of their Government upon gifts from others, and when the resources of Ireland allow I feel sure that she will not be unwilling to bear such share as her circumstances permit in the burdens of the Empire which her sons have helped to build up, and from the trade of which she directly or indirectly benefits.

The next consideration that should be taken into account is that the Irish Parliament must have at its command, should it need to increase Irish revenue, adequate sources of taxation; and yet, on the other hand, it is necessary that there must be left to the Imperial Parliament a sufficient field of Imperial taxation, especially, though not solely, in case international danger should threaten both Ireland and Great Britain alike, and additional revenue should be needed for the purposes of national defence. Further, it is necessary that there should be adequate security for the great loans issued upon the guarantee of Imperial credit, for land purchase and for other purposes. Next, our scheme must be so devised that the finance of one country shall not be appreciably disturbed by changes effected in the finances of the other by the Parliament of the other; in other words, that the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer should not have his Budget upset by any action that may be taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this House, and, conversely, that the Imperial finances should not be affected by changes which the Irish Parliament may find it necessary to make in the other island. Again, the Irish Parliament should properly be called upon to bear the burden of any increase which they make in Irish expenditure, and, on the other hand, if they are able to make economies in Irish expenditure the Irish Parliament should have the benefit of those economies. If not, there would be very little inducement to effect economies in government. If every decrease in expenditure went to the advantage of the Imperial Exchequer probably you would find those decreases remarkably few. And I think it is essential—and this is a point of great importance—that if the Irish Parliament is able to effect economies and to reduce taxation that they should be free to reduce whatever taxation they choose, and especially that they should be in a position to reduce those taxes which press most heavily upon the poorer classes, namely, the Customs Duties, especially upon tea and sugar. It is worth while to submit even to some complications and difficulties in order not to withhold from the Irish Parliament the right of reducing taxation, if it is in a position to do so, on the poorer classes of Irish taxpayers.

Lastly, it is not practicable in the opinion of the Government to give to the Irish Parliament full and unfettered control of Customs. Such a measure would indeed be inconsistent with devolution to the other parts of the United Kingdom and the general policy of government in these Islands which His Majesty's Ministers have in view. In this connection I should like to say a few words to the House with regard to the Report of the Committee of Financial Experts which was recently appointed by the Government, and whose Report will shortly be laid upon the Table of the House. I do not think when that Report is published it will give very much consolation to the Members of the Opposition. So impressed was that Committee with the utter unsoundness of the present system of Irish and British finances that they came to the conclusion that the only course was to propose a heroic remedy and to give to Ireland complete fiscal autonomy. Consequent upon that they proposed the exclusion of the Irish Members from this House, and, in addition, they proposed that at the outset there should be placed at the disposal of the new Irish Government and Parliament at the cost of the British Exchequer an annual sum of over £900,000; but—and there was a very important qualification—they proposed to deal with the existing deficit in this way.

They recommended that all existing old age pensions now payable should continue to be paid by the Imperial Exchequer, but that all new pensions for persons who reached the age of seventy should be paid for out of Irish taxes. The consequence of that would have been that the Irish Parliament would be called upon to provide year by year a growing sum for old age pensions, and unless they effected a drastic reduction in the amount of those pensions the effect would have been that in four years the whole of their initial surplus of over £900,000 would have gone; that in five years they would have a deficit and would be obliged either to effect more economies or else to increase taxation; that in ten years they would have a deficit of £1,000,000 and later on £1,250,000. There was no specific provision for any contribution, either at once or in the future, to the general expenses of the United Kingdom. For reasons which have already been indicated, these were proposals which the Government could not see their way to accept.

The conditions, therefore, with which we are confronted are these: there is a deficit of £1,500,000 which ought not to be thrown upon the new Government, but which, on the other hand, ought not to rest permanently upon the shoulders of the British taxpayer. The Irish Parliament should be provided with adequate resources of taxation. There should be left a sufficient field for Imperial taxation and a sufficient security for loans already made. The finance of Ireland ought not to be disturbed by actions in the Imperial Parliament and rice versa. The Irish Parliament should be allowed to benefit by any economies it is able to effect, and, on the other hand, should bear the burden of any increased expenditure in which it engages. Those are the conditions of the problem of Irish finance. I think in all quarters of the House it will be realised that all these propositions are reasonable, and I claim that all of them are fulfilled in the proposals now before the House.

But in order to meet all those varied conditions it is necessary to propose a scheme of some elaboration, and it is not possible by any rough and ready means to meet so many and such different requirements. In explaining somewhat more fully than the Prime Minister was able to do in his opening speech the system of financial relations proposed in the Bill, I will ask the House first to consider the system as it will be established on its initiation, apart from any subsequent action that may be taken by the Imperial Parliament or the Irish Parliament. The whole of the Irish revenues will flow into the Imperial Exchequer so long as the deficit lasts. That is essential, because it is the very central point of the scheme that all normal increases in revenue due to greater prosperity and growth of population should go into the Imperial Exchequer, and should remain there to help to pay the deficit which now rests upon the British taxpayer. Out of these revenues will be paid to the Irish Exchequer the transferred sum, which will cover the present cost of Irish services, that is those services for which the Irish Parliament will be responsible, and it will include the existing deficiency on the annual working of the Post Office, which now amounts to about £250,000. Further, the transferred sum, as the Prime Minister indicated, will include the surplus to be at the disposal of the Irish Parliament, which for three years will be a sum of £500,000, subject to a gradual deduction of £50,000 a year, so that after six more years it will be reduced to £200,000, at which figure it will remain.

The transferred sum will be at first rather more than £6,000,000, and will be reduced in the course of eight or nine years by a sum of about £300,000. This £6,000,000 is not, as it has been represented in some organs of the Press, a grant from the British taxpayer. The whole of this amount is from Irish taxes, and it may more strictly be termed a retransferred sum, because it is all Irish money. There will be left with the Imperial Exchequer an annual amount of about £3,000,000, and this sum will go far towards covering the cost of the reserved services, such as old age pensions, and insurance. Labour Exchanges are also included in the reserved services, because their administration is most closely bound up with the administration of the unemployment part of the National Insurance Act. Land purchase and police are also included. The right hon. Gentleman asked who would have control of the police. The police will be under the orders of their own Inspector-General of Constabulary, and he in turn will be under the orders of the Lord Lieutenant. "The Lord Lieutenant, like Colonial Governors will have a dual capacity. So far as Imperial services are concerned, he is under the general direction of the Imperial authorities; and so far as Local Government is concerned, he acts upon the advice of his constitutional Ministers. The arrangement as to police is a temporary provision during the first six years. The collection of Irish taxes is also one of the reserved services. The total cost of the reserved services is about £5,000,000, including £190,000, which forms part of this year's Estimates in respect of the charges under the National Insurance Act. The cost of the reserved services will, of course, be subject to some variations, and would be subject to some variations apart from Home Rule, for the charge for insurance will increase, and the charge for land purchase will increase, while the charge for old age pensions is now practically at its maximum, and will gradually decline year by year, ultimately by about £200,000, The charge for police, it is hoped, may be in some degree decreased. The annual loss that will remain at the outset will be £2,000,000, and all the growth of Irish revenue due to greater prosperity and larger population goes to the gradual diminution of this loss. Last year, 1911–12, the Irish revenue showed a most remarkable and satisfactory increase. Some part of that increase was what I may say fortuitous and due to the transfer of the telephones, a small sum in respect of the telephone revenue which had been the National Telephone Company's income there; but putting that aside, last year's revenue may be compared to the average revenue of the two preceding years. As the House knows, one must take the average for the two preceding years on account of the disturbance of our finances owing to the rejection of the Budget of 1909. Comparing last year's revenue with the average of the two preceding years it shows an increase of no less than £700,000. It is not to be expected for a moment that that increase, which was distributed over Income Tax, Customs and Excise, will be repeated in future years, but if the average increase in future years is £200,000—that perhaps is an over-sanguine estimate, for no man can tell what it will be—that would mean that in ten years' time the whole of the existing Irish deficit will disappear and Ireland will no longer be a charge upon the British taxpayer. If there were a decrease —which is not to be expected, because all Irish tendencies are the other way—then the situation would be the same as if no Home Rule were passed, and the deficit would be correspondingly increased. If the increase of revenue is less than £200,000, as it may well be, the deficit period will be longer than ten years, and if it is more then it will be shorter than ten I years. The Bill proposes also that the guarantee on land purchase loans shall be continued as a lien on the transferred sum. That is the whole scheme, the whole financial scheme on its initiation, apart from any alteration that may subsequently be made by the action of one Parliament or the other.

I come now to the modifications which may in future be effected. The Imperial Parliament retains its general control over taxes, but if it imposes additional taxation, or if it reduces taxation in Ireland, that will not affect the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget. His finance will not be swung this way or that by the movement of Imperial finances—a consideration which I think is of prime importance—because the transferred sum will remain the same, whether the Imperial Parliament adds to taxation or reduces taxation in Ireland. With respect to the powers of the Irish Parliament, if it eventually finds itself in the position to remit taxation, it is free to do so. It can reduce any of the taxes levied in Ireland with the exception of certain Stamp Duties, which it is of importance should not be at a lower figure in one part of the United Kingdom than another on account of Stock Exchange competition, and for other reasons which I need not enter into now. If the Irish Parliament finds it necessary to call upon the taxpayers of Ireland for further sacrifices to provide more money for the development of the country, then it has at its command certain powers of imposing additional taxation. It may add according to its will to the Excise Duties, and since it has complete control of the Excise Duties, as a necessary consequence, it must also have control over the rates of Customs Duties on beer and spirits, because they must vary with the rates of Excise. It will have power in the second place to impose any new taxes which are not levied by the Imperial Parliament now. The Inhabited House Duty is not at present levied in Ireland and certain establishment Excise Duties are not levied there. It can devise new taxes which do not form part of the Imperial system. Thirdly, it can, if it so desires, add to any of the other main heads of taxation, Income Tax, Death Duties, Customs Duties other than beer and spirits, to an extent limited to 10 per cent, of their yield. That 10 per cent, limitation is imposed so that the Irish Parliament should not trench unduly upon the proper area of Imperial taxation. If the Irish Parliament finds it necessary and expedient to exercise any of these powers—very likely they may not do so at all—but if they should find it advisable to do so, the Imperial Exchequer will remain altogether unaffected by their action. If they decrease one of the taxes, for example, the consequence will be that the Imperial Treasury would collect less in Ireland under that tax, and, having collected less, it would pay over less in the transferred sum.

I am speaking of decreases now. If there is a decrease in a tax the Imperial Treasury will collect less and pay over proportionately less, and the Imperial Exchequer will remain unaffected. If, on the other hand, they increase any of our taxes or impose new taxation, then the Imperial Treasury will collect more money in Ireland. If it collects more, it pays over more. The variation will be reflected in the transferred sum, which will vary as the amount collected in Ireland varies, following the alteration of the tax up or down by the Irish Parliament. If the Irish Parliament remit taxes they lose revenue to that extent; if they increase taxation, they increase their revenue by the proceeds of that increase. I should like to say a further word with respect to what is in our national finance a novel proposition, the 10 per cent, additions. It is novel in our national finance, but it is the very basis of the local government finance of other great States, particularly France and Germany. The whole of the local government finance in France is based upon the centimes additionels. To the main taxation imposed by the French Parliament local authorities can add; to the franc imposed by the State, they can add if they like 10, 15, or 20 centimes, or what they will. Both in France and Germany the limitations upon these additions are very high. They can add in Germany 100 per cent, and even more, and, consequently, the field of the Imperial tax-gatherer is very limited. We impose 10 per cent, limitation in order that the field of the Imperial tax-gatherer may not be unduly gleaned before he appears on it.

But we need not go so far afield, we need not go abroad, for precedents. Our own local finance is almost wholly based upon the principle that one authority collects the rate and other authorities may add to it. Our county councils, our town councils, and our parish councils collect no rates of their own. It is the board of guardians which declares the amount of the Poor Rate, and it is the overseers who collect the Poor Rate, and other local authorities can make additions to that Poor Rate at their will. They levy a rate by way of precept upon the overseers, and while one authority collects the tax, the amount of the tax is determined by several authorities, and the yield is distributed among the several authorities that determine the amount. I do not think it probable that the Irish Parliament is likely to exercise this power of making a 10 per cent, addition to such portion of the Income Tax as is collected at the source. That would involve very great difficulties of collection which I need not enter into. The difficulty and annoyance to the taxpayers would be so great that I cannot conceive the Irish Parliament will propose such a tax. But it might add to the Income Tax, and possibly will, so far as it is levied by virtue of individual declaration—that is to say, to such portion of the Income Tax as is affected by abatements on the one hand, or by Super-tax additions on the other. The check of 10 per cent, is not on the rate of the tax. There is no limit of 10 per cent, on the rate of the tax imposed by the Bill; the check is upon the yield, because, owing to abatements and the difficulties of assessing precisely what is the yield of a particular rate, it is not practicable to impose this limitation by way of rate; it must be effected by way of yield.

You cannot foretell the yield with precision. I did not want to go into these details, but, since the hon. and learned Gentleman has asked me, I will tell him what is proposed. The objection is, of course, foreseen in the Bill, and the Irish Parliament have a very effective deterrent imposed upon them to dissuade them from putting on an addition to the tax which will yield more than 10 per cent., because it is provided that only an amount not exceeding 10 per cent, shall be handed over to them in the transferred sum, and if it does exceed the 10 per cent, then the rest goes to the British Exchequer. I think the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will exercise all his powers of ingenuity so as not to impose by his tax more than 10 per cent. addition to the original tax. The right hon. Gentleman asks whether a 10 per cent, addition to Customs can be levied differentially as between the different countries. That, of course, is not so. If they take the Imperial Tea Duty as it stands they may add an amount not exceeding 10 per cent, to the whole of that duty, and, if they wish to add to the Tobacco Duty, they may do so similarly. It is distinctly the method of the centimes additionels.

Whatever Customs Duties are levied by the Imperial Government may be added to by the Irish Government, but the Irish Parliament cannot tax any article which is not included in the Imperial tariff for the time being. If by virtue of the exercise of these powers the rate of Customs or Excise Duties on any article is different in the one country from what it is in the other, then, of course there will be a differential duty or drawback on the goods passing from one country to the other. For instance, if the Irish Parliament were animated by strong temperance sympathies, and were to raise revenue by increasing the tax on Irish whisky, the whisky which came from Ireland to Great Britain would have the advantage of a drawback equal to the amount of the duty put upon it in Ireland-If, on the other hand, they reduced the tax on Irish whisky, Irish whisky would not be allowed to come into this country and undersell Scotch whisky by the advantage given to it by the lighter duty, but a countervailing duty would be put upon it here.

It is not quite clear, but no doubt it is meant, that Customs and Excise, in an article like this, must be identical in Ireland. I would like to know if that is so?

There is no provision in the Bill, but the Irish Parliament has absolutely no interest or motive to make it other than identical. The right hon. Gentleman means they cannot have a higher Customs Duty than an Excise Duty. I do not think that is a matter of any importance, because I doubt whether there is any importation of whisky into Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] It is, however, a Committee point which will be considered. It is not a point of any substance.

Would there be anything to prevent the Irish Parliament putting an Export Duty on linen?

That suggestion is so preposterous that it has not been taken into account in framing the Bill. With respect to differential duties, no difficulty in practice is likely to arise, and you will not, as a matter of fact, have Irish whisky paying first one duty in Ireland and then paying another duty on transfer to England, because the movements of all these taxable commodities are always made in bond, and, as a matter of practice, the duty which will be ultimately payable will be the only one which will in fact be charged. With respect to loans, if the new Government desires to borrow money' for drainage or for other purposes of national development, they will, of course, have power to do so. I believe it is possible, as they are a new Government, that the rate of interest would be higher than would be payable by an old-established Government, though I believe, if necessary—

The whole of the revenue of the Irish Government. The transferred sum of six millions a year will be in the hands of the Irish Government, and they can borrow on that security. I do not suppose the hon. and learned Gentleman suggests the Irish Parliament ought to borrow money without having money to pay the interest and Sinking Fund. It must pay the interest and Sinking Fund out of taxation or out of the revenues in hand. I was about to describe another provision in the Bill with respect to loans. It may possibly be found to be a great advantage to the Irish Government should they have occasion to borrow, and should they wish not to depend only on the internal resources of Ireland for such a loan, to have an alternative power placed in their hands. They will be enabled to arrange, by legislation, with the Joint Exchequer Board of Great Britain and Ireland, whose composition has been described by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister—consisting of two representatives of the Imperial Treasury, two representatives of the Irish Treasury, and a Chairman appointed by His Majesty—for that Board to issue the loan on their behalf, and to make provision for the payment of interest and Sinking Fund charges out of Irish revenues by way of deductions from the transferred sum before the transferred sum goes over to the Irish Exchequer. It may be said this is indeed a natural consequence of the collection of Irish revenue by Imperial officers, and the provision I hope will make the Irish people more ready to acquiesce in their revenues being collected by some authority outside themselves.

The Irish Parliament will have the power to take over certain reserved services. The Royal Irish Constabulary will go over automatically in six years, and pensions or insurance may go over at a year's notice, at the will of the Irish Parliament. When any transfer is effected there will, of course, be a corresponding financial adjustment, but the amount to be transferred to the Irish Exchequer in respect of any of these reserved services will not necessarily be fixed upon the basis of the cost of that service at the moment. For example, the cost of old age pensions is a decreasing charge, and, if the Irish Parliament take over old age pensions, they will not have with it a revenue equal to the charge for old age pensions at the maximum, but the Joint Exchequer Board will fix how much is an equitable sum to be paid over corresponding to the relief which will be experienced by the Imperial Exchequer; and, per contra , if the Insurance Act were taken over by the Irish Parliament, consideration would have to be given to any causes operating at the time of the transfer which would lead to an increased charge. Of course, once the service had been transferred, if the Irish Government were able to administer old age pensions more economically, they would benefit by their economies just as they would be able to benefit by any other economies they might effect in the services.

I do not know whether this is a convenient moment to ask what is to be done about the Local Loans Fund?

The Local Loans Fund—loans that have already been issued—are a reserved service altogether, and the Irish Government does not touch them so far as administration is concerned. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman means the collection of the contributions?

A good deal of money now lent in Ireland is quite separate from land purchase. Is the Local Loans Fund reserved, just as land purchase is reserved?

Yes, existing Local Loans are entirely a reserved service. It will be necessary for a Treasury Department in Ireland to collect the contributions, because the existing Office of Works will probably become an Irish Department.

New loans for Irish local development will be an Irish service, and Ireland will have power—if she considers it so she will have the duty— to make provision for the continuance of that part of Irish administration. The House will have marked that there is the transfer of certain services at intervals of years, and this is an advantage, not only for financial reasons, but on general and broader grounds. It is not desirable to load the new Government with its full weight at the outset. It is expedient to enable the new Irish Government to begin its work without being charged with the whole of the duties of administration which will ultimately fall upon its shoulders. The Joint Exchequer Board, which I have described, will not deal with questions of policy in any case, but only with questions of fact.

Who is to pay for the Royal Irish Constabulary after that service is transferred?

6.0 P.M.

As with all the transferred services, there will be an addition made to the transferred sum corresponding to the cost of the Royal Irish Constabulary to the Imperial Exchequer. With the service goes the money to pay for it. I should like to say that the figures which I have quoted to-day, and which the Prime Minister quoted previously, are based upon what is known as the Treasury White Paper. But these figures, both of Irish revenue and Irish expenditure, are not presented as being necessarily accurate in every particular, and, therefore, they do not form part of the Bill and are not embodied in it. If we had embodied the actual figures in the Bill, it would have been necessary either for this House to have engaged in a prolonged investigation into the detailed figures included in the White Paper or for us to have asked it to accept on trust Treasury figures which have long been the subject of heated controversy. Therefore the Bill does not rest upon those figures. The actual amount of Irish expenditure and of Irish revenue will be determined in the first year after the passing of the Act by the Joint Exchequer Board on the basis of the much fuller returns which they will be able to obtain under the powers provided by the Act. These are the provisions which will operate during what is termed the deficit period.

With regard to new taxation which may be imposed either on Customs or Excise, will it go equally to the Imperial Exchequer and to the deficit in Ireland?

Any taxation imposed by the Irish Government will go to the Irish Exchequer, but any new taxation imposed by the Imperial Parliament will go to the Imperial Exchequer.

Will the taxes imposed by the Irish Parliament be collected by the English Exchequer?

They will be collected by the Imperial Exchequer and they will be transferred to the Irish Exchequer in the form of an addition to the transferred sum.

Will that not be an incentive to the Irish Parliament to reduce existing taxation so as not to pay off the deficit, and to put on new taxation of which they will get the full benefit?

The Irish Parliament will have to be extremely ingenious to devise new taxation for such a purpose. I think the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. If they were to take off old taxes they would pro tanto lose the proceeds, and it would make no difference to the Imperial Exchequer.

The Irish Government have power to devise new taxes. The Irish Parliament will be under the control of the Irish electorate, and the I Irish electorate would not, conceivably, elect any body of men so foolish as deliberately to set to work to destroy the prosperity of their own country. At the end of the deficit period it is contemplated that Parliament shall reopen the present settlement and shall provide for a contribution to the common expenses of the United Kingdom proportionate to the then resources of Ireland, and at the same time transfer to the Irish Government the collection and control of such taxes as may appear to be expedient. We were most anxious to render the process of providing for a contribution to the Imperial expenditure automatic, without the necessity for the existing financial settlement to be reopened, but, after very prolonged consideration, it was found to be impracticable to devise any method by which the proper Imperial contribution from Ireland could be assessed. The period when that contribution will be payable is not likely to be very close at hand. We cannot tell what may be the services which will be at that time reserved and paid for by the Imperial Exchequer. We cannot tell what loans there may be or what security may be needed for loans. We cannot tell what experiments may have been tried by that time in methods of raising taxation. So that, on all grounds, it has been found necessary and desirable to leave to the Parliament of that day the decision of these matters.

I am afraid I have detained the House rather long, but, in effect, the scheme is this. This Parliament will, if the Bill passes into law, say to the Irish Parliament, "You will be charged with the main services of Irish Government; you will have placed at your disposal whatever sum those services now cost. In addition to that you will have £200,000 a year at your disposal. In the first eight years you will have a somewhat larger sum. Irishmen now urge that the government of your country is extravagant. We agree, but we cannot reduce that expenditure while the Irish services are conducted on the same scale by virtue of the same statutes and on the same lines as the services of Great Britain." That is my answer to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. He said if we believed in Irish economy why not effect it, and he added that we were very inconsistent; that there might be economy.

You think Ireland ought not to pay her share of these expensive services now that you bring Home Rule in?

It is impossible, under this Parliament, to reduce expenditure in Ireland so long as it is conducted on the British scale by a service homogeneous to the United Kingdom and established by the authority of single Acts of Parliament. We say to the Irish Parliament, "If you are able to effect what we have been unable to do, and to conduct your government with less expense, then you will have those savings at your own disposal. You may reduce taxation on your taxpayers or you may spend the money so saved on other purposes. If, on the other hand, you choose to spend more, you must provide the extra expenditure from your own taxation, and, to achieve that end, you have powers entrusted to you. If you think you can save on the administration of old age pensions or national insurance, or if you desire to adapt the Old Age Pensions Act or the National Insurance Act to Irish needs more than hitherto, you are free to take over those services, and you will be provided with the sum of money they cost the Imperial Government." And to the British taxpayer who, after all, is a person not to be left out of account in this connection, we say, "Twenty years ago Ireland was paying her way and her revenue contributed £2,000,000 a year towards the Army and Navy and other expenses of the United Kingdom. Now Ireland contributes nothing to those expenses. Not under Home Rule but under a Unionist system of Government Ireland contributes nothing towards these common services. On the contrary, there comes from the British taxpayer's pocket year by year a sum of a million and a half, which is being given to Ireland in order to meet the deficit on their services." It says further to the British taxpayer, "it is impossible at once to shift this burden on to the Irish people; it would be ungenerous and unjust. But it is to your interest on the narrowest grounds of financial motive, to alter the system which has resulted in the situation we are now faced with. This Bill will stop further commitments for expenditure in Ireland. It will provide that any future normal increase of Irish revenue will go to lessen the existing deficit. In return for that, the Imperial Parliament is asked to make a contribution in the first eight years of a sum which will average £400,000, and, afterwards, £200,000."

It is totally untrue to say that this Bill imposes on the British taxpayer a new burden of £2,000.000 a year. It is absolutely untrue, and anyone who says that misrepresents the facts. The sum of £200,000, which, after the first eight years, is the only additional charge, is a little more than one-thousandth part of our present revenue; it is equal to about a farthing in the £ on our Imperial revenue; and that sum will help to promote the prosperity of the country in which the British tax-payer has the most direct financial interest. The scheme as a whole, 13 reasonable, workable, and equitable both to the one party and to the other.

Lastly, what is the alternative in matters of finance which is put forward to this Bill. Will the right hon. Gentlemen opposite guarantee that, if this Bill is rejected, and they become responsible for Irish Government, will they guarantee that the burden on the British taxpayer will not increase? On the contrary they guarantee precisely the opposite. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition recently, at Belfast, said that his policy in regard to Ireland embraced two proposals—the first, involving a large further grant of Imperial money, which would have the effect of adding to the existing deficit; and, the second, a measure of Tariff Reform "to be framed with special and anxious regard to the interests of Ireland." To the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who, I understand, is to take part in this Debate tomorrow, I will put a question—a course I seldom venture to take in this House—and I will ask him— very likely he will not answer—a simple question asked many times before, and capable of a concise and simple answer. It is this: "Is it the purpose, and will it be the consequence of your measure of Tariff Reform to raise the prices of farm produce?" If it is not, if the prices of farm produce are not to be raised, what advantage will Tariff Reform be to any farmer in Ireland? If the prices are to be raised, what becomes of your pledges with respect to effecting no increase in the cost of living in this country? That question has often been asked. It will often be asked again. It is the Tariff Reformer's dilemma, from which there is no escape. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Well, I shall be very interested to hear the reply when it comes. It is indeed an inviting prospect to the British taxpayer: on the one hand, an increase in the burdens which now rest upon his shoulders for Irish administration; and, on the other hand, an increase in the cost of food for the working classes of this country. At the end it will make no difference to the Home Rule demand.

You asked for twenty years of resolute government. There have been more than twenty years of resolute government. You spoke of killing Home Rule by kindness. After a quarter of a century of killing Home Rule by kindness the demand remains precisely the same as it was in 1886, and precisely the same as in 1893. You will be very bitterly disappointed if you think that Irish loyalty and Irish friendship are likely to be bought by further grants of Imperial money. No Western country has ever been ready to surrender its natural desire for self-government, to surrender its proper demand for a Parliament, and all that a Parliament typifies, the healthy development of national spirit, a name and a place in history, in exchange for grants of money. I think that perhaps in the whole course of history there is no more pathetic picture than that of Ireland, year after year—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—Nationalist Ireland if you will; I will say four-fifths of Ireland—[Hon. Members: "No, no"]—are we to have a new Unionist arithmetic as well as a Tariff Reform arithmetic—standing at the gate, patiently and persistently, of her richer neighbour, year in and year out, always asking the same thing, the elementary right of managing her own local affairs. If your policy has its way, ten years or twenty years may pass, and at the end of ten or twenty years the Irish problem will remain precisely the same, altered only in this, that the deficit, which is now one and a half millions, will be four or five millions then. It will be our task to make it plain to the people of this country that those who wish to add to the burdens of the British taxpayer by adding to the Irish deficit are there (pointing to the Opposition), and those who offer to the British taxpayer the prospects of relief from the weight which now presses upon him are those who ask Parliament to pass this Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman has made a very interesting and a very elaborate survey of the financial proposals, into the details of which I do not propose to follow him to-night. It is a matter which we can better study when the Bill is printed. But I must make this general observation, that the right hon. Gentleman destroys whatever verisimilitude there ever was in the doctrine that this Bill will relieve this House of congestion of business, because at every turn of this financial scheme points will come up for decision by the Exchequer Board—every new tax that is imposed, every new adjustment that is made, if the transfer of services ever takes place, will all come before the Exchequer Board, which will have to decide a vast mass of questions of the nicest character which will be quite fairly open to a great deal of dispute from one side or the other, and every one of these questions will, of course, be discussed in this House by the forty-two Members who represent Ireland. How is it possible for anyone to believe that this financial machinery, constantly requiring the decision of most difficult questions, in which every decision of the Exchequer Board may be brought up for criticism in this House—because I suppose that the salaries of the Exchequer Board will be Imperial salaries borne by the Imperial Exchequer, and therefore discussable in this House, and every one of these points will be brought under review here—will relieve our business? If that single aspect of the matter is perceived, hon. Members will see that will occupy all the time that has been given during the last ten years to the discussion of purely Irish affairs.

When the right hon. Gentleman was arguing that there was no injustice to the British taxpayer because already we pay these two millions or more which is to go to the Irish Government, he fell into a fallacy, which is surprising in a gentleman so clear-headed. As things now are, neither Ireland nor England pays revenue. The taxpayers pay the revenue, and the individual taxpayer is the person who must be fairly treated. Hon. Members of the Government seem to argue as if Lord Pirrie and Lord Clanricarde paid heavier Income Tax than persons similarly wealthy in Great Britain. The whole conception of treating Ireland as a payer of taxation is illusory and fallacious. As long as the United Kingdom is a whole, the only thing that matters is that every taxpayer should pay his fair share. But when you regard Ireland as a separate nation, all her taxpayers pass into a new status. They will be no longer citizens of a common country, but they will become citizens of their own country, and as such they are bound to bear whatever cost the administration of that country entails. Then, for the first time, it becomes possible to say whether Ireland does or does not bear her fair share of Imperial burden; and then, for the first time, it becomes necessary to see whether the bargain between England and Ireland is unfair or not, on one side or the-other. The whole conception that while you have a common area and a common system, particular taxpayers may be earmarked as Irish or English, and Irish revenue may be spoken of as distinct from English, is at bottom a fallacious one, and all the arguments grounded upon it are fallacious as well.

Among the arguments put forward in support of this Bill by the right hon. Gentleman, we had the very oldest argument used on this subject, the argument that the Colonies had self-government, and therefore we ought to extend to Ireland the same measure of self-government as they have given to the Colonies. As a matter of fact, we are not going to do anything of the kind. The proposal is entirely different from anything in the Colonial proposal. Is it not possible for hon. Members to understand that what was ceded in respect of the Colonies was just self-government, that is to say, representation in a free Parliament. When they speak of the Transvaal and all the rest of it, what was at issue there was the giving to the Transvaal of a representative system. I am surprised that anyone who has had the satisfaction of reading Burke's celebrated speech on the conciliation of America could have made this mistake. He was the great prophet of Colonial self-government. He set out many instances and illustrations of self-government; but most of them were in regard to the introduction of representation into those countries. He instanced a large number of cases where districts lying outside were brought in, and the country became more peaceable. The Irish are precisely in that position. They have self-government. If hon. Members admit that they already have it, why do you go about the country telling people that you are going to give it? We say Ireland is now self-governed, and if you deny that, you are in this difficulty, that England is not self-governed either. Ireland is self-governed in the only sense that England is self-governed. There is only one refuge from that argument, and that is, that Ireland is a separate and distinct nation, and that therefore no representation in this Parliament counts for the purpose of self-govern- ment If that be the line adopted, as it is the line adopted by hon. Members behind me, we are faced with all the enormous dangers of setting up a system of nationalist autonomy, based on the existence of separate nationalities.

My right hon. Friend (Mr. Balfour) has dealt so well with the dangers that hang around that, that I shall say little about them; but I entreat hon. Members to face the immense dangers that lie before them in that path. By far the most significant illustration of the dangers of nationalist autonomy is to be found in the case of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. I do not believe there is one that encourages the belief that such a system works smoothly or to the common advantage of either country. If you base your argument, as you must base it in logic, on the ground of separate nationality, then Austro-Hun-gary is by far the clearest case of analogy in the whole world. I should like to imagine the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary calling upon the venerable Austrian Emperor, and soliciting an audience to ask him a few questions as to how nationalist autonomy works in his Dominions. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman asked that question whether lie would be told that it led to a very smooth system and a union of hearts between the different component members of the monarchy. If the right hon. Gentleman went on to say, "We suffer a great deal from a congestion of business in our House of Commons, and we really think it would relieve that congestion of business, and that it is so important a matter that we are prepared to grant the request for this nationalist autonomy." I am very much inclined to fear that the venerable Monarch would ring the bell, and ask to have the lunatic taken away. There is a disproportion so enormous between the dangers that spring from Nationalist autonomy and the trifling grievance of the congestion of business in this House, that anyone intimate with the evils of the one system would think it sheer insanity to incur so great mischief and such great evils for the sake of so small a matter and such a trivial inconvenience.

The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has commented at length on the financial system, and has constantly said that, of course, the system might be modified by the action of one Parliament or the other. I think I can guess very well the modifications that will be made, because it is part of the beauty of the system that we are to have forty-two Irish Members here, and for this purpose I am not sure that you need distinguish between Unionist and Nationalist Members. I remember Mr. Gladstone, in discussing this very point, referring to the very well-known maxim that Satan still finds mischief for idle hands to do. I think that Mr. Gladstone accepted the argument so far as it went. These forty-two Gentlemen will be here, with no employment directly concerning the local business of their own country to interest them, except that it is very good local business that you should get as much as possible out of the Imperial taxpayers. We are told that social reform is a reserved service, that old age pensions and national insurance are to be reserved services. I suppose that the collection of taxes is also a reserved service. On what conceivable principle we are to pay for the collection of taxes out of which we are to get no profit I cannot imagine. But these are reserved services. It is a very convenient thing to have a phrase so polite for getting money out of somebody else. The next time I am dining at a club with a friend, or the next time I am getting into a cab, I shall take care that it is a reserved service and so avoid payment. These reserve services seem to me to be quite capable of extension by the Imperial Parliament under pressure from forty-two Irish votes. For example, suppose old age pensions are extended to persons of sixty-five years, or supposing increased benefits are given under the National Insurance Bill, how are you going to be sure that forty-two Irish Members, selling their votes to one Front Bench or the other—to the highest bidder—will not be able to get as much as they please of these new benefits of social reform? Will it not be logical that they should? If you pay pensions to people in Ireland over seventy largely out of British funds, why are you not to pay pensions to people over sixty-five largely out of British funds? Why should you draw this rigid rule? I can conceive a very easy Parliamentary defence for any quantity of extension which it might be convenient for a Minister to make who wanted to hire the forty-two votes, which will be kept ready to be given to whoever will meet the difficulty. I think there will be repeated adjustments, after the Bill is passed, of the financial relations between England and Ireland, and the adjustments will always be of one kind. It is one of the peculiarities of Irish nationality that it is to be under two flags. When it is a question of managing whatever business the Irish Parliament wants to manage it is to be under the green flag and the Harp, but when it is a question of paying the money up goes the Union Jack, and forty-two Irish votes will be used to get as much as possible out of the British Treasury.

When the right hon. Gentleman tells me that the rate at which Ireland lives is a thing inflicted upon Ireland by Great Britain, for which she has no responsibility, I envy his power of sleeping through the Debates upon Irish expenditure which have taken place since he and I have been in Parliament, because I have heard a great many Irish Debates which have concerned financial questions, and I have always found that Irish Members are agreed, almost as one man, to get as much money as possible out of the British Exchequer for any object of Irish expenditure which may come handy. I do not believe the Government will, on reflection, say that the Irish representation in Parliament has been a force in favour of Irish economy. I believe that is a proposition too absurd even for a defender of the present Bill. Therefore I say Ireland ought, in justice to Great Britain, to bear the cost of her own expenditure if she is to be treated as a separate nation. If she is to be part of the common country the only thing that it is necessary to consider is that the taxes should be fairly laid upon those citizens who live in Ireland, and that the expenditure should be reasonable considering the needs of the particular districts. Of course, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) said on Thursday night, there are, no doubt, plenty of districts in Great Britain about which you could show that there is a deficiency in the sense that the expenditure exceeds the revenue. It would be so, certainly, I apprehend, in the highlands and islands of Scotland, which are districts even poorer than any in Ireland. I daresay it would be so even in East London, even in respect of the historic parish of Limehouse, where the genius of the Chancellor of the Exchequer has robbed Billingsgate of its distinguished title. These poor districts are, like Ireland, in the position of consuming more money than they could raise, but that is the very conception of national existence. It is right that within a nationality the rich districts should bear the burden of the poor, and when the Leader of the Opposition promised to Ireland that her needs should be fairly met out of the National Exchequer he was only promising that we should do our duty. It is the essence of national existence, and it is sound finance, that poor districts should receive abundantly out of the overflowing abundance of a rich Exchequer.

Let me pass to the position of the Irish minority in Ireland and the safeguards which are directed to its consolation. The safeguards which are intended are, for the most part, old, like the arguments used in defence of the Bill. Let me invite hon. Members opposite to consider how it is that any legal safeguard works. How are you going to enforce any law anywhere? Surely, only through the action of the Executive Government. Suppose the Irish Parliament does anything which is ultra vires. Suppose, for example, it were to restrict the preaching of Protestantism in the South and West of Ireland. There are sometimes riots caused by the indiscreet teaching of Protestant beliefs in the South and West of Ireland. Supposing the Irish Parliament passed a law ostensibly, and perhaps really, in the interests of the public peace, to restrict such preaching, and supposing the Lord Lieutenant, acting under orders from Great Britain, vetoed that law. Do you really think you would be able to give efficient protection to these preachers who are menaced by the law] Does anyone suppose that? It is extraordinarily difficult to enforce any law in the world which goes against public sentiment even when you have the whole, force of the Executive Government in your control. We know it very conspicuously about the Irish Land Law. How are you going to make any safeguard you can possibly construct better than the safeguard which was given by Parliament to the landlords who had judicial rents fixed] And yet, in many instances, it was with the utmost difficulty that those judicial rents were recovered. In many cases there was resistance to evictions even in enforcing the judicial rents, though you had the whole of the Executive Government in your hands. How can you possibly hope to enforce any law that you like to lay down, any law which may arise out of the provisions of this Statute, any law that the Irish Parliament may hereafter pass, when the whole machinery for enforcing the law is in other hands than yours?

There is a story so well known that I am ashamed almost to narrate it. We have all heard the anecdote of the gentleman who was travelling in a railway carriage with a box, and being asked what was in it, said there was a mongoose. He was asked, "Why are you taking a mongoose V and said, "To kill some snakes. The snakes belong to a gentleman who has drunk too much, and he sees them everywhere." The other man said, "Then they are not real snakes?" "No," was the answer, "and this is not a real mongoose." That really is the position of the Government about these guarantees. The only reason they make a pretence of them is that they believe, or pretend to believe, that they will never require to be enforced at all. There are no snakes, and an imaginary remedy is quite good enough for an imaginary grievance. If you suppose there ever will be an occasion on which you have to use your guarantees, if, in short, what you are doing in the Bill is not perfectly otiose and superfluous, assuredly your guarantees will break in your hands and will not be worth the paper on which they are written. I need not refer to the Senate, which, I suppose, is the most absurd proposition by way of a safeguard which was ever designed. I do not object to nominating a Second Chamber. I can quite conceive, if you take proper precautions for an impartial nomination, that the Second Chamber might be a useful body, but to constitute a Second Chamber and give its nomination to the very persons against whom you wish to have a safeguard is, of all proposals, the most silly that has ever been put forward. It is like safeguarding the rights of mice by entrusting their protection to an assembly of kittens. It is the cat that provides the the kittens, and it is the cat against whom you wish to be protected. To a Bill so put forward the people of the North-East of Ulster have every right to offer resistance. I notice that from the Labour Benches, there are often cries, if not arguments, which depend for their effect upon the theory that if you recommend or approve resistance to the law anywhere you must approve it everywhere.

Everyone makes exceptions. The present Sovereign sits upon the Throne in right of a successful rebellion, by reason of a triumphant treason. No one who has taken the oath of allegiance to the King can reasonably say that rebellion is in every case an unrighteous thing, though in every case it is an illegal thing. I know it is a very difficult and dangerous exercise of the mind, but every rebellion must be judged on its merits. You cannot lay down a wooden rule. Some rebellions are righteous and some are unrighteous. The question that needs to be considered in every case is what are the particular circumstances that justify a particular resistance to the law. I mentioned the revolution of 1688, because there really is a considerable analogy between the position of our ancestors in 1688 and the people of North-East Ulster. What was substantially the danger against which the revolution of 1688 was carried out? It was the establishment by unconstitutional means of a Roman Catholic ascendancy. Our ancestors foresaw quite correctly that if King James II. had his way there would be established a Roman Catholic ascendancy, and against that they were prepared to rebel. This Bill contains within itself a somewhat similar menace. I am very far from being a partisan of either of the two historic parties in Ireland, between whom there is, and always has been, a deep feud. I am very far from saying that the faults are only on one side or only on the other. There are, no doubt, great and serious faults on both sides, but I cannot conceive anyone who has read Irish history or studied the subject at all who does not believe that it would be an intolerable thing to make either of the Irish parties ascendant over the other. If the proposal were different from what it is, if the proposal were to set up a Parliament such as Grattan's Parliament was at the beginning of its career, a Parliament of Protestants elected by Protestants, and therefore of a purely Protestant character, if the proposal were to re-establish, in short, the Protestant ascendancy of the eighteenth century, I need hardly say that the Unionist party would oppose such a settlement just as vehemently as they are opposing this Bill-It is not in the least degree because I have more sympathy with the theology of Orangemen than with the theology of Roman Catholics. I do not know that I have such a sympathy, but where you have two parties which have fought, and whose grievances against one another are bitterly increased by differences of religious opinion, it is both a madness and a cruelty to put one under the government of another, and I am quite certain if a similar measure were to be dealt out, as is to he dealt out in Belfast under this Bill, to Manchester or Glasgow they would say precisely what Belfast says.

Even so stating the matter does not state the grievance in its full light. The Nationalist party that is to be made ascendant is not only divided from the loyal party that is to be put under its feet by an ancient feud embittered by religious disagreement, but it is a party which has a past, and very much of a past. It is the party which actually conducted the agitation that led to Mr. Gladstone's Home Rule Bill directly and leads to this Bill indirectly by criminal methods. It is a party which from top to bottom is assocated with methods of intimidation and criminal conspiracy, and it is a party which in its lower ranks—I am not speaking now of the leaders—but in the lower parts of the Nationalist party, the old Land League and National League, were associated with the grave crimes of murder and outrage. Would the people of Manchester or Glasgow like to come under such a Government as that I Why, they would resist, and Belfast will resist, and rightly resist. I am astonished that the Government really believe it to be possible to force the people of North-East Ulster to come under the control of a Nationalist Parliament. I think their resistance would be a righteous one, and I am encouraged to think that it would not lead to violence and disorder. It could only lead to violence and disorder if the Government tried to coerce the population of North-East Lister to submit to a Nationalist Parliament; but I am sure that no Government of Great Britain would do anything of the kind, partly because the opinion of the people of this island would be so overwhelmingly against it, and also because a sense of humour if nothing else would protect a Government from committing such an absurdity. Conceive the coercing of a great body of people in the name of self-government! I am sure hon. Members will find that that is an insoluble problem. I do not suggest or recommend the separate treatment of Ulster, because, of course, that would leave all the other arguments against Home Rule quite unchanged, but I do say that if they had separate treatment their plan would not be on the face of it unfeasible. But if they try to force them to come under a Parliament in Dublin, the thing on the face of it would break down. Just think of the period of time at which they are going to undertake the insane task of coercing Ulster. It will be in the expiring months of this Parliament, for you cannot have this Bill through before the full two years required by the Parliament Act. They will be by that time well in sight of a general election. Do they really believe that they could fight a general election on the programme "Shoot down the people of Ulster." Is there an hon. Member opposite who can picture himself standing up in a hall before an English or Scottish audience defending the necessity of sending troops or constabulary to enforce the dictates of a Parliament in Dublin? It will be impossible, and no Member will defend it. Of course hon. Members will be tumbling over one another in the earnestness of their assurances that Ulster shall have its own way, and that something shall be done to make her remain under the Parliament of the United Kingdom.

What is going to be done when that period of anxious apology sets in? When you have made up your mind that you are going to cut the northeast counties out of the scheme, what becomes of the remainder of your scheme of financial purity and integrity? I am quite convinced that this Bill will not pass. It is a Bill framed like a serial story which is to come out in instalments. There is to be an Irish Parliament, and we do not know what is to come next. We are to be kept in a fearful state of anxiety as to whether it is to be English, Scotch, or Welsh Home Rule. But I am inclined to fear the thing would have the same fate as overtook the celebrated romance of Dickens's "Edwin Drood." We shall never know what are the difficulties which Home Rule has to surmount. Literary-people will write essays on the subject. There will be an angry correspondence in which the speeches of the Prime Minister and the Postmaster-General will serve as indications of how they would deal with the English and Welsh parts of the subject. Federalism is a shade more absurd than Irish Home Rule. I am amazed at the false hopes with which the Government and their supporters have buoyed themselves up. I really believe the Prime Minister has devoted so much time to the federal arguments that he fancies Unionists are in favour of a federal United Kingdom. The right hon. Gentleman will find that this is a vainer hope than the hope of coercing North-East Ulster. On the face of the Bill federalism is impossible. Who ever heard of a federalism under which the Imperial Government had to bear strictly local charges? How, under that system, would you go on in future when you have Scotch, Welsh, and English Home Rule. Are you going to have two standards of social reform on the two sides of the border? Are you going to have pensions for persons over sixty-five years old at 5s. a week in Scotland, pensions at a few more shillings in Wales, and at a few more shillings in England? Of course, it would be impossible, because you would have a troop of labourers flocking from Wales into England in order to get the better terms of social reform. That is the absurdity of your scheme. As to Irish representation, the right hon. Gentleman asked, "Do you want more or fewer?" We say that we want things left as they are? The absurdity of federalism lies in the fact that the United Kingdom is one unit, and the whole theory that it should be broken up into four is false in effect. There are not four separate units, such as you suppose, and therefore the very condition of the independent life of separate units does not exist in this Kingdom. I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to consider how great their responsibility would be if they were successful in carrying their successive schemes of Home Rule for the four parts of the Island, and then inoculated England with a sense of nationality. No one is idiot enough to believe in English nationality at present, but supposing there was an English nationalist feeling, and four Parliaments were set up to wrangle with one another about their interests, there would soon be an English nationalist feeling, because they would not submit to pay for Scotch, Irish, and Welsh social reform. H you had an English Parliament people here would say, "We will spend the money on ourselves. We are the richest country and we should have the richest share of the benefits from that circumstance." Then you would have the English Members, who would have supreme control by their overwhelming numbers. The Imperial Parliament would call back the benefits given to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, and reduce them to the economic well-being which belongs to their own population and their own resources.

What would happen to the greatness and well-being of the whole country while the Imperial Parliament, which is to be relieved of congested business, and four other Parliaments are fighting out these questions, and when this Parliament is telling how much belongs to England and how much should go to the other parts of the Kingdom? How could we face foreigners when we were torn asunder by such quarrels? We need not suppose that the position is visionary. It is the very circumstance which has raised the situation that exists in Austria-Hungary. It is the kind of quarrel which has been brought to a close in Norway and Sweden by the separation of the two kingdoms. I say this scheme is unjust to Great Britain and oppressive to the Irish minority, and if the federal system was carried out it would lead to total incoherence and disaster. I say that it is dishonouring to Ireland as it stands, and I wonder that Irishmen do not feel the odious position which it puts them into financially in regard to this country. They cannot receive without dishonour the abundant financial help they are to get under this Bill if they once set up as a separate nationality. This is a Bill to reduce Ireland from the status of a wife to that of a mistress; she is to be no longer united to John Bull, but she is to be kept by him. I am surprised that the Prime Minister made so liberal a present to Tariff Reformers as the argument about the cash nexus. I understood that he always despised the doctrine of the cash nexus. But there is to be a cash nexus between Great Britain and Ireland, and the aspirations of Irish nationhood would have to be restated in a less inspiring form. I would like to make a contribution myself by rewriting "The Wearing of the Green." Four lines occur to me which would run very well in the new poem in this way:— the possession of English money. He combines the diverse characteristics of George Washington and long-fingered Tom. I am persuaded that you cannot found a nation upon these terms. If Irish nationality was a reality, we should not have this grotesque scheme of paying money out of the pocket of one nation into the pocket of another. The Prime Minister spoke of the persistence and the insistence with which Ireland had claimed Home Rule. There is something that goes nearer the heart than the ballot-box, and that is the pocket. There is very little sign of any disposition to pay for Irish nationality. I do entreat Irishmen to cast aside this sordid, silly, and degrading dream. Irish nationality, as they would have it, can never be anything but shameful to themselves and dangerous to the whole Empire. Let them feel the real pride of true citizenship in the great nation to which we and they belong. We do not dream of asking them to take any place less than an equal one in that great community—an equal one with us and an equal one with Scotland and Wales. Let them go forward on the path of unity, and they will find in the end that it is the only path that consists with their honour as assuredly it is the only path that leads to wealth and glory.

7.0 p.m.

I am sorry that the Noble Lord thought fit in winding up his speech to indulge in a very cheap and a very unjust sneer when he said that the Irish party had exhibited no inclination to pay for its nationality. I do not think that any party ever existed in this House who have given as great proof of their willingness to pay for nationality as the Irish party. However, I do not intend to follow the Noble Lord in his speech, which was very discursive, and kept rather wide of the real issue of this Debate. Putting aside details, four questions of principle have been raised in the course of this Debate. The first is the question of Ulster, the second is the religious question, which I separate from the question of Ulster, the third is the question of separation—the danger to the Empire and the strength of the United Kingdom if Home Rule were given to Ireland—and the fourth is the question of finance. Before I deal with those questions I would like to say a few words on one of the chief arguments, on a preliminary matter, which has been constantly alluded to during the last few months. That is whether Ireland still desires Home Rule, and whether she needs it. That has been dealt with by several speakers in this Debate at considerable length; and the usual swarm of correspondents of English Unionist newspapers, who have been more constant in their attentions to Ireland this year than I ever remember before, have made the statement in every shape and form, that Ireland no longer desires Home Rule, and certainly does not need it.

I need not repeat the proof given by the Prime Minister in opening the Debate last Thursday. He pointed to the fact that for eight successive General Elections, extending over a period of twenty-five years, the Irish representation has remained unshaken and undiminished in number in favour of Home Rule. There is in addition to that fact, as anyone who studies the history of those years must know, that at times in the course of those years, the position of the Irish party was often one of extraordinary difficulty. At times we were divided among ourselves, and the circumstances of the party were such that any other party who less correctly represented a deep-seated and unshakable conviction on the part of the people would undoubtedly have been shattered. In 1886 Lord Salisbury said, after the defeat of the Home Rule Bill, "Give Ireland but twenty-years of resolute government, and Home Rule will never be heard of again," and in 189.3, after the defeat of the second Home Rule Bill, Mr. Gerald Balfour, who then was Chief Secretary, undertook to kill Home Rule permanently with kindness. And yet here we are to-day, after a quarter of a century of coercion and kindness alike, undiminished in numbers, and certainly in a position of no less power, than we have ever occupied through all that time. But to show the position which we occupy, let me come to the last two Elections which took place in 1910. The circumstances of those Elections were peculiarly calculated to encourage the Unionist party to test the opinion of Ireland on this great issue. In the first place, Home Rule was the sole issue. There was practically no other-issue before the Irish people. In the second place, the Unionist party had for years repeatedly declared that the hold of the Home Rule cause on the Irish people had been diminished, that the movement instituted by Sir Horace Plunkett and other movements in Ireland had weaned the people of Ireland from the cause of Home Rule, and that the growing prosperity of Ireland, had caused the farmers to get tired' of the Home Rule cause.

When the elections of 1910 came on, there was a certain amount of division among Nationalists, causing in some parts of the country contests at the polls; and the Unionist party in Ireland, as will be within the recollection of all the Irish Unionists in this House, up to the very eve of the Elections, repeatedly asserted that they would contest Nationalist seats for the purpose of testing the feeling of the country. Appeals were made in the Irish Unionist Press for large sums of money to contest these seats for the double purpose of exhausting the funds of the Nationalist party and to show that that party had no longer so great a hold on the country. As I have said, the circumstances were peculiarly inviting, because at the particular moment of those two Elections, the solidarity of the Nationalist party was not completely unbroken, and in certain districts of the country Nationalists were pitted against Nationalists, and contests took place at the polls. What happened was that on the very eve of the Election that policy was dropped, and, practically speaking, the vast majority of the Nationalist representation was returned at both Elections unopposed, or only after a contest between candidates both professing the Nationalist faith; and in the four or five instances where the Unionists did contest Nationalist seats, there was not the slightest symptom of any decline of any sort or kind, even in the slightest degree, in the bold of or principles and the Nationalist faith upon the voters of Ireland. On the contrary, we did better at the polls than we ever did before. How, then, can any man, with either sense of justice or truthfulness, stand up in this House and say that there is any sign or symptom of weakness in the firmness and persistency of the Nationalist demands?

"Oh, but," we are told then, "Ireland does not need Home Rule, whether she demands it or not, because in the old days the demand for Home Rule was based on the misery of Ireland and her decline and poverty under the system of the Union; but now Ireland is prosperous, and, therefore, she no longer needs Home Rule." That prosperity, while it exists, has been grotesquely exaggerated. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College and the Leader of the Irish Unionist party, compared it in a speech which he made last winter to a "fairy tale." Well, that is a very good comparison, because in deal- ing with the prosperity of Ireland we have been told fairy tales. It is perfectly true that Ireland is no longer a decaying country. She has turned the corner. She is progressing; and as regards the condition of her people, the improvement and happiness there are most satisfactory and most graitfying. But to deal with her, as hon. Members on the Unionist Benches have done recently, and to say that the prosperity of Ireland compares with, if it does not exceed, the prosperity of Great Britain and other countries in Europe, is a preposterous exaggeration. Ireland, no doubt, is no longer a beggared and ruined country as she was for a century, under the policy of the Union; but while this is not the occasion to go into facts and figures, because it would take a considerable time, when the proper occasion arises and when that point is challenged, it will be easy to prove that, compared with this country or with Scotland or with any other progressive European country, Ireland is still an extremely poor country, which is only beginning to recover.

When we turn to inquire into the causes of that change in Ireland, when we come to inquire how the measure of prosperity which Ireland how enjoys was brought about, and study the history of the last thirty-three years in Ireland—during which the tide of Ireland's decay was turned and the basis of her present progress securely laid—then I say that in the history of those thirty-three years you will find an argument for the necessity of Home Rule so strong that if every other argument were swept away, on that alone we could base her case. Because, what was it that laid the foundation of Ireland's prosperity? It was the revolutionary movement in Ireland; and if that revolutionary movement had not taken place, Ireland would be almost a wilderness now. It was the revolution of the Land League, denounced in eloquent terms by the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) below me, which made possible the beginning of the prosperity of Ireland, and stopped her ruin and her decay. If there had been no Land League and no Act of 1881, which was the direct result of the Land League, we should never have heard of the so called Tory policy of land purchase. What was it converted the Conservative party to land purchase? I am, I regret to say. rather an old Member of this House; and I recollect well when from the benches of the Conservative party land purchase, when it was first advocated by Michael Davitt, was denounced as "confiscation and robbery." The Tory party were never converted to land purchase until the estates of the Irish landlord had become unsaleable owing to the changes that had come about. Land purchase was the Tory alternative to the Land Acts, and the Act of 1881, and the Local Government and the Agricultural Department and the later measures of land purchase were the alternative to the Liberal policy of the Home Rule Bills of 1886 and 1893.

And now we are told frankly what will be the Unionist alternative to the present Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General (Mr. Herbert Samuel) has quoted from a speech of the Leader of the Opposition at Belfast. But on the first occasion on which the Leader of the Opposition spoke in this House, everybody will remember that he came down rather unexpectedly to take the lead of his party on a Friday, when we were discussing a Bill about Canadian cattle, and he made this very remarkable statement:— extremely bad government, and the cause of all our misfortunes in the past. They chose to identify themselves with the maintenance of that system, which we overthrew, practically by revolution, against their determined opposition. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) said that the prosperity of Ireland had grown in spite of the action of the Nationalist party. That is directly the reverse of the truth. We were obliged to engage in practically a revolutionary movement, a movement which ought not to be forced on any people, in order to lay the foundation of, and open the gates to, the present prosperity of Ireland. There you have the reason of the great rift in Irish life, which we hope to see obliterated, but which hon. Members above the Gangway hope never to see obliterated, because their idea is that this division between North-East Ulster and the rest of Ireland should remain for ever. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] You have no remedy; you have no proposal at all. Our hope is that it will disappear. Land purchase does not affect the people of Belfast.

The religious difference was not nearly so acute owing to the fact that the Protestants were much better off than the Catholics, but land purchase made them both well off.

The Noble Lord is in error. Was it the fact of the Protestants being better off than the Catholics which led to the riots in Belfast? The Noble Lord is quite wide of the realities of the case. The real explanation of the Ulster question is that it is not mainly a religious question, it is not mainly even a racial question. Is there any hatred between Irishmen living in Scotland and Scotchmen, or between Irishmen living in England and Englishmen? Or between Irishmen and others in the Services? Irishmen serve side by side in the Army and Navy with Englishmen and Scotchmen, and they get on admirably. I say therefore that the cause is not religious or racial difference, but is historical, and results from the fact which I have just described, that they are really an ascendancy faction who are now asked to accept a position of equality with the rest of their countrymen, and I know of no case in all history where the ascendancy section of a people has ever consented to step down and accept a position of equality without a bitter struggle. That is really the Ulster question, and when once this explanation of that question is thoroughly grasped, it is perfectly easy to understand why the champions of Ulster avoid argument altogether, and take refuge in declamation and rowdyism, and why the war cry of Ulster is "We won't have Home Rule." The war cry of Ulster is, "We won't have Home Rule, not even if the House of Commons and the whole public of England unanimously grant it." I listened with intense interest, I must say, on Thursday night, to the speech delivered by the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division of Kent (Mr. Ronald M'Neill). I do not know whether he will consider it impertinent on my part if I say that on the whole I regarded it as one of the best speeches delivered in the Debate. There were three most remarkable points in that speech which fixed themselves on my recollection.

First of all, the' hon. Member admitted that he was saturated with Ulster prejudices, and he went on to say that he would not speak of Ulster because he was afraid he could not do so without becoming unparliamentary. The hon. Gentleman then proceeded to make a speech which certainly, in avoiding the Ulster question, was a great contrast to many of the other speeches, because it was characterised by great moderation and by reason from beginning to end. There was this remarkable feature about it: Although he is an Ulster man, saturated with Ulster prejudices, he never said a word about the religious controversy from the beginning to the end of his speech. I was greatly struck with the passage in which he said that the main ground of his objections to Home Rule—and I think he spoke for his friends in Ulster—was that it involved a degradation of status. What is a degradation of status? What is the meaning of that? Does he mean that to be citizens of a country having a home Parliament is a degradation of status as compared with the position they now occupy? If so, then he must include the leader of his own party, who was not born on British soil, but in a self-governing colony, and who was a citizen of Canada before he came over here. Is his status degraded? Or does the hon. Member mean by degraded status that he is only to be the equal of his Catholic fellow-countrymen? Is that the degradation? I confess I am unable to understand what the hon. Member's fear is as to degradation of status. I must confess it puzzled me why his countrymen in Ulster, having a man capable of making so admirable, so powerful, and well-reasoned a speech as the hon. Member for Kent have not sent him to represent them in Parliament instead of making a present of him to Kent.

The position of Ulster men in that respect is very curious. When they wanted a leader they had to go to Dublin and select a Dublin man, who similarly has had a prolonged residence in this capital. Although that is true, like the proverbial Red Indian, he appears to be somewhat inclined to go back to his feathers and paint in order to please the tribe that has elected him. But it really does appear as if the Ulster men realise the fact that if they elected one of their own party as leader, their cause was doomed irretrievably and for ever. What is it then these Ulster men want? [An HON. MEMBER: "Xo Home Rule."] That appears to be the limit of their argument. Let me in all seriousness appeal to them to help me out of one other puzzle. What will satisfy them? There are no men in Ireland who have been more distinguished during the last two or three years for abuse of this House and for constant and emphatic statements as to the ignorance of Englishmen and their incapacity to deal with Irish affairs. I can quote dozens of passages, if I desired to do so, from the hon. Member for Armagh, from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College, and others, all denouncing Englishmen, their ignorance, stupidity, and incapacity to realise the conditions of Ireland.

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that his memory has entirely failed him. I have seen general denunciations of Englishmen, and have heard them in this House, and if only Englishmen could be induced to understand Ireland, they would, of course, put everything into the hands of Ulstermen. Let me take one or two specimens of their abuse of the present system of government. You must remember after all that you cannot always commandeer in this country a Tory Government. If you are going to have the Union you must submit to occasional spells of Radical Government. Here is what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College (Mr. J. H. Campbell) said on the 4th January last in his description of the present Government:—

"We had enjoyed for the last five years the advantage of living under a good Constitution, but with a miserable Executive. He would venture to say that they would fail to find a parallel in political history to compare with the five years of oppression, of tyranny, of injustice, of political jobbery and corruption which had prevailed since the Liberals came into office."

"Hear, hear," say hon. Members, but that is the system they are supporting and demanding. Here are hon. Members actually loudly supporting—[An HON. MEMBER: "We are not supporting it."] You are supporting the system with its tyranny, jobbery, and corruption.

On a point of Order, may I say that I added on that occasion that it was all due to the fact, as admitted and acknowledged that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary—

As a matter of personal explanation, may I say that on the occasion in question I took care to point out with extreme preciseness, as I thought, that this was all due to the fact, as admitted by the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. J. Redmond) that the Chief Secretary for Ireland was not the right hon. Gentleman opposite, but the hon. Member for West Belfast.

I have even a more forcible extract, and I may say here, before I read this, that it was a favourite topic with the Nationalists denouncing Dublin Castle, but we pale our ineffectual fires as we never denounced it in the language which I shall read out, and which is another extract from a speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College, at Coleraine, on 7th January, when he said:—

"During the last five years the Government of this country had been carried on under a system that was remarkable for its tyranny, oppression and injustice, and also for the amount of political bigotry and corruption that it involved. Dublin Castle had ceased to be the home of the Executive. It was a sort of stud farm for the rearing of Protestant Home Rulers."

That is a pretty statement as to what the Unionist system has reduced Ireland to. Even the very centre of Government authority is turned into an institution of that kind. That is the system which hon. Members above the Gangway are prepared to spill their blood in order to keep on. Here is even a still more remarkable quotation, not from the same source, but a greater and higher source, the Leader himself. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson), who leads the Unionist party, on 8th December, 1907. used this language—I quote from the "Times" newspaper:—

"Speaking with great vehemence (so the "Times" reports) as an Irishman to Englishmen he said that if they were not prepared to govern Ireland according to the ordinary elementary conditions of civilisation that prevailed in every country, let them go out of Ireland and let Ireland govern itself."

And yet, singular to relate, in face of those descriptions which I have read from responsible men of the condition of jobbery, corruption, bigotry and oppression unparalleled in the history of the world which had prevailed in Ireland for the last six years, we are told that the country is progressing and prospering beyond all previous record, and at a greater rate than Great Britain or other European States, so that really Ireland is a very puzzling country, everything is upside down, for apparently according to those Gentlemen they are devoted to a system which results in bigotry, oppression and corruption. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] And they are also telling us that that bigotry, oppression and corruption have produced an unparalleled reign of prosperity in Ireland. Let me turn for a few moments to the religious question, and I separate this question deliberately from the other question. The religious question is a question that affects England greatly, more than Ireland, because I may tell you frankly I differ in this respect from a great many here. I believe that there are very few in Ireland amongst the Protestants of Ireland who sincerely believe that they are in the smallest danger. I believe if you got them into a private room and talked the thing over with them that the vast majority would frankly admit that to be so. But then the religious question is a very serious question with England, and it undoubtedly affects the minds of a great many Englishmen very seriously. I bought the other day one of the most interesting books I ever read. I have it here. It is by the Rev. Joseph Hocking. [Laughter.] Why do hon. Members laugh? He is a prophet amongst Protestants; he is a prophet, and has written serious works, which I think must prove that he is not prejudiced in favour of Catholics. He went over to Ireland, prejudiced, as he says himself, strongly on this question, and believing that Home Rule would be Borne rule in Ireland. He hardly went near the Catholics at all, but went about and spent his time amongst the select of the northern provinces, chiefly in North-East Lister, and his conclusion and his opinion when he came back was that so far from Home Rule being Rome rule the one way to dislodge and weaken Rome rule was Home Rule. That is his opinion. Let me just give one passage from his book which is exceedingly interesting. He describes conversations he had with a number of leading Protestants in the North, and he asks this question:— thought they would like to do a little hedging on the question. According to the Dublin correspondent of the "Times":—

There is just one other point, and that remember to which some men in this House attach a great deal of importance, the question of an Arbitration Treaty with America. Some hon. Members believe that the time may come when friendship with America will be of very great importance to this country. I say Ireland does not come empty-handed to you on this occasion, for undoubtedly if this measure goes through a profound and lasting impression will be made on the public opinion of the United States. I am not going into the details of the financial question, that will be fully debated at a later stage. All I will say is this: I ask hon. Members and appeal to them in considering this financial question to keep in mind a few main facts—first of all, that since the Union Ireland has contributed out of her poverty £315,000,000 of money towards the general expenses of the Empire; that Ireland during that period has been a decaying country, decaying in population and in wealth, horribly poor, devastated by constantly recurring famines, crushed by the worst land system in Europe, and drained in addition by an enormous absentee rental, and torn by agrarian and political struggles which made industry and prosperity impossible; that in four years from 1845 to 1849 nearly a million people died in Ireland of starvation, and that during that period of four years Ireland contributed £8,000,000 towards the general expenses of the Empire. All the heaviest charges in Ireland are directly the result of English government in that country Six hundred thousand pounds a year has been spent on getting rid of the land system which the English Government forced upon Ireland, and which has plunged Ireland for 200 years into poverty and agrarian trouble. There is nearly £1,000,000 per annum extra charge for the Irish Constabulary, which is solely necessary because of the bad land system and the bad government to which the country has been subjected. One hundred and eighty thousand pounds a year is devoted to the Congested Districts Board, which had to be set up to remove one of the most horrible results of the Irish land system. There is about £1,000,000 a year, the extra cost of old age pensions. Why? Because Ireland through the process of emigration—4,200,000 having left the country since 1852—has been turned into a regular reservoir of old people. In addition to all that, you have going on through all these years the overtaxation absentee rentals, famine, emigration, and discontent. I say that the fact that Ireland is beginning to recover under the changed policy of the British Government during the last fifteen years is a most amazing proof of the natural wealth of Ireland and of the industry of the country. We look forward to this Bill with hope and enthusiasm. The Ireland we look forward to under this Bill is an Ireland which at an early date will become self-supporting, and will be ready to take its share in all the burdens of the Empire, not as an unwilling slave dragged in the wake of your great Empire, but as a willing partner, taking a willing share, as we did in the years of Grattan's Parliament, not only by contributing according to our resources to the financial burdens of the Empire, but by contributing what is greater than that, namely, the valour of our sons, which in the darkest days of our misfortune has never been questioned by friend or foe, and contributing in addition the friendship of the scattered millions of our race, who, in the dark days of your misgovernment and of the evil laws you have imposed upon Ireland, have spread over the whole earth and formed a mighty nation far more numerous than those of us who have remained at home. I tell the men of Ulster and the Protestants of Ireland that if they will only join us in the great effort to realise this dream, they will find that the day on which they make up their minds to trust their own countrymen will be the happiest day in the history of Ireland.

I listened with a certain amount of interest to the speech of the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), and I should like to say a few words from the point of view of those whom he so persistently jeered at and abused all through his speech, and to whom at the very end he held out the right hand of fellowship. These professions of toleration and conciliation, and all the other nice things that we hear from hon. Members below the Gangway about the time when a Home Rule Bill is coming on, are something novel. They are not "hardy annuals"; they blossom once in every seven or fifty years. Another thing about them is that although they are made for English consumption, and they go down very well in the House of Commons and on British platforms, it is a peculiar fact that we who live in the country, who have more interest and a greater stake in the country than hon. Members below the Gangway, or at least as much, can never be got to believe in them. This kindliness of oratory is all very well for platform or House of Commons purposes, but what is it worth when the people who know the circumstances cannot, although they have every interest to do it if they could, bring themselves to-believe one word of it? It would be much better for us if we could trust hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. We would do it to-morrow if we could, but the risk is too great. We have their history, we have their expressions towards us, we have the attacks they have made upon us time after time, we have the war they have carried on through the centuries, and now at the last moment, because they want a Home Rule Bill, we are to turn round, to shut out the past, to forget their conduct up to the present, and to deliver ourselves blindly into their hands, because it suits them to cry toleration.

I have voted against many Bills in this House, but I have never given my vote with greater pleasure against a Bill than I shall against this one, because I know what it means. It means a real danger to the Empire, striking at its very heart. It means ruin to the prosperity of Ireland, and absolute ruin to the industrial and commercial centre of Irish life. I know that it means also the gravest disaster to Irish Protestantism. The hon. Member for East Mayo frequently alludes to us as bigots. We have to submit to something, but I do not at all mind being bigoted if I am bigoted in a good cause. The better the cause the more I respect a man for being bigoted in it. Bigoted only means having you own convinced opinion and sticking to it. Is every Protestant in Ireland bigoted? [Hon. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members say now that they are not; but every year they have again and again accused all Protestants of bigotry. Every Protestant Church in Ireland, in the biggest and most representative assembly that they can muster—the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church, and every other Protestant community in Ireland—has had its meetings and has grouped together as one man, without there being any dividing question of church or creed, telling the English people that they believe that Home Rule will be a menace to them, to their Church, to their faith, and to the liberty which as British citizens they have a right to enjoy. They are not all bigots, they cannot be. You may keep that for your politicians. It cannot apply to the rank and file of the Church. These people who live in the country, who have been brought up in it, who have had the advantage, if advantage it be, of living all their lives under the attacks of hon. Members below the Gangway, just as they find the cry of Empire on the lips of the hon. Member for East Mayo somewhat novel, so they find equally novel the suggestion of toleration, and do not trust it.

There are the facts. You cannot convince the Protestants of Ireland that they will be safe if you hand them over to the domination of hon. Members below the Gangway, as this Bill proposes^ to do. They may be right. I know they are right. You may not think that they are right, but they are the people with local knowledge and with everything at stake. As I said before, surely if we could trust them, would it not be much the easier way of solving the whole situation, instead of our being driven to fight with our backs against the wall, because we know we cannot trust them. Although I say that the Bill means all that to what we hold dear, at the same time I do not know that hon. Members below the Gangway have got very much out of it. The hon. Member for Waterford said that the policy of the party was the policy of Parnell. What was Parnell's policy? I am not going to bother the House with quotations; I have only two. Speaking to the delegates of Mayo in 1885, he said:— leaves Parnell's ideal very far from fulfilment. Can anybody say that this Bill fulfils the aspirations of hon. Members? Does this Bill make Ireland a nation? If so, it makes her a nation fettered and bound, watched at every turn, a nation without independence, a nation with the English tax collector on every hearth. Yet hon. Members turn round and say, "We will tell the Irish people at the Convention on the 23rd that we stand where Parnell stood, and we have made Ireland a nation." Who set limits to the march of a nation? This Bill sets limits at every turn. Hon. Members will say, "We stand where Parnell stood," but the Irish people have sense enough to know that if this Bill does put limits to the march of the nation, every limit in it has been assented to and, for all I know, drafted by, at any rate approved of, by hon. Members below the Gangway, who have said that they were leading the Irish people to the goal that Parnell wanted for them. I will only say of the Bill that it is absolutely stamped all over with lack of confidence. The great nation and the nation's leaders are not to be trusted. They are not to collect their own taxes. There are safeguards, provisions, and restrictions at every turn. I wish the National Convention joy of it when they come to realise how very limited are the powers that this particular nation has gained by all the platform speeches, the agitation in the country, the intimidation, outrage, and everything else, which have all been part of the movement that has been going on for the last thirty years, and here is the end of it today. The hon. Member for East Mayo gets up in this House and says that Ireland is poor, that Ireland is in rags.

I am not giving the exact words, but the hon. Member's argument was that Ireland was not prosperous, and that we were wrong in saying that she was.

The hon. Member is misrepresenting my argument. I said that Ireland was prospering, and that she had turned the corner; but that to compare the degree of her prosperity with that of Great Britain or of any progressive country in Europe was grotesque.

I will leave it at that. I do not think I misrepresented the hon. Member. The point is that Ireland is a poor country. The hon. Member repeated that again and again in what I may call Dillonese. Yet with all the poverty of the country what do these leaders of Irish nationality do? A British Minister gets up and says, "We are bringing in this Bill from the point of view of the British taxpayer to enable the wealthy country of England to cut the loss." Then the representative of the poor country says, "Such is my love for the British taxpayer that I will lead my country to accept this Bill to save the British taxpayer."

But poverty and all, he is to assist a British Minister to cut the British loss. That is the present position. I want to say a few words from the point of view of the north-east corner of Ulster, which has been so much attacked to-night It generally is attacked, but it does not do us any harm. I may, first of all, say with some satisfaction, that at last we are believed when we say that Ulster is in deadly earnest over this matter. When I say "Ulster" I am not going to repeat "North-East Ulster" every time. The House knows perfectly well what I mean. For the last six or twelve months, when my colleagues and I have made speeches in this House or in the country, the answer from the smug, complacent wire-pullers in the Radical party has been, "Ulster is bluffing: it is mere bluff and bluster." I think there is an internal piece of evidence in this Bill showing that the Government have taken to heart what Ulster has said. It will no longer be open to them to talk about Ulster bluffing. Has it occurred to any hon. Member of this House why this absurd arrangement is going to exist in relation to the finances of the Bill; as to why this Irish subordinate Parliament is not to be allowed to collect its own taxes? The collection of the taxes is to be, put in Imperial hands because those concerned know that a Nationalist tax-collector would be chased out of Ulster—and we are the people who are bluffing and blustering! This Government puts a British tax collector to relieve the Nationalists of a duty they never would be able to perform. I hope that after that admission we will hear less doubt as to our determination to resist! Hon. Members ask, "What do we want?" I will tell them what we want in Ulster. We want in Ulster the same rights that you have in Yorkshire or Lancashire, in Devonshire and Cornwall, we want to have the right of sending our representatives to this House, to the mother of Parliaments, to the Central Assembly of the whole Empire. We want all the rights that this House gives us.

It is perfectly true that there are cycles of bad government—such as unfortunately we are passing through now—cycles that had been described by the hon. Member by quotations from the language of my various hon. and right hon. Friends. These are, I am sorry to say, an absolutely accurate description. At the same time I would rather have the devil we know than the devil we do not know. There are prospects of recovery in the one case; whereas once we are put under the heel of hon. Members below the Gangway there would be no recovery, but a speedy death to anything that was connected with the welfare or the prosperity of the country. We want to be allowed to stay here and continue our rights unimpaired as British citizens, and with the security that one Parliament of the United Kingdom will give us both in our civil and religious liberty. I believe myself that the hon. Member for Cork is perfectly right in the policy that he has again and again announced to Ireland. The hon. Gentleman has said that, "It is no use talking about Home Rule unless you get the Protestants of Ireland to consent to it."

That is absolutely true. It is perfectly true, if our consent were won, as I said the other day, there would be very little difficulty about the matter. Since the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork has thrown out a policy of conciliation—which means the right hand of fellowship for Protestants—the mere fact of his doing so has brought him attacks from the Ancient Order of Hibernians and others. But that is the way, and the only way, in which Home Rule can ever be won. You will have to get it with the free consent and good will of the Protestant minority, and you will get it in no other way. We hear references continually made to South Africa. May I remind the House that you have got the Union in South Africa now because the independent races and States consented. You would not, I take it, have had the South African Union if Natal had not consented to come in. Natal was the English Colony. She came in. She, by her consent, made the Union possible. Ulster is the English Colony, the Natal of Ireland. You can never coerce her. You may win her consent. It will take time, years perhaps to do it; because we have not yet forgotten the experience that hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway have taught us. It may not come in our generation. It may come eventually; but you will never be able to get it, you will never bring about the Union by compelling us to come in by force.

Is there any man in this House, no matter how earnest for the Union in South Africa, who would for a moment have urged that this country should have forced Natal to come into the South African Union? Ours is exactly the same case, and you will have to face it. You do not get rid of this problem by saying that Ulster is bluffing and blustering. It is not, I submit, in Ulster a mere matter of counting heads. In Ulster you will not find any deficit of Imperial contribution. Take the counties of Ulster. There is no deficit there. We gladly pay our Imperial contributions. We pay our way too. We contribute perhaps two-thirds of the taxation of the whole of the country. That is an element you cannot ignore. It is not a mere matter of the counting of heads, like that of the cattle-drivers in the congested districts. You have to consider the productive part of the country. Circumstances have so willed it that we have concentrated in Ulster the whole of the commercial and industrial community in Ireland. You cannot ignore that. When that big community says, "We are not going on any terms to submit ourselves to the Government to be set up by these proposals," why the English and the Scottish Members, whether they like it or not, will have to face that. In this Ulster of ours, which is so belittled, we do not have cattle-driving or outrages or intimidation. These flourish where hon. Members below the Gangway are masters. In Ulster, in Antrim, in Down, we have twelve policemen for every 10,000 inhabitants. In county Clare you have forty-six for every 10,000. Those facts must be taken into consideration.

It is not as if a disorderly rabble of the country were protesting. We are the people who are earning the money of the country. We are only a small number here—seventeen Members in this House. Hon. Members below the Gangway are always telling us of that. It is because we have a very large proportion, though not sufficient to give us an electoral majority in any particular division. There is a large majority of our kith and kin and co-religionists in adjoining parishes in Ulster who are a very, very large minority, but not quite large enough to give us the Parliamentary representation. The votes of these friends do not count. This commercial community says that Home Rule means simply disaster to commercial prosperity. After all, what we want for the purposes of commerce is capital. We cannot raise capital without credit. There is no credit without security. What security for law and order and for the preservation of elementary justice would there be if the control was to be in the hands of hon. Gentlemen who for so long have been defying the law, breaking it, and running illegal agitations, culminating, as I said just now, in cattle-driving, illegal conspiracies, and everything else? You would not get the banks to trust a government of that sort. If the national security is not good you could not raise capital, and who suffers? It is the artisans that we have to provide employment for. National insecurity injures national credit, and capital is not forthcoming. I believe if this Bill is passed you will see a terrible time in Ireland in the way of credit. There is no bank that has money out throughout the country which will not at once proceed to realise, and call in the amount of its debt. Why should the banks leave their money out when they are under a government whom one can honestly say he does not know what thing they are going to attack next? The Nationalist party has attacked every interest in Ireland that happened to differ from them politically. Yet it is expected that when this new Parliament is set up there will be a sense of calm, confident, national security! That is one reason why we feel what a blow it would be to the prosperity of the industrial community in the north of Ireland.

We have one instance before our eyes, an instance that has been going on year after year from bad to worse. It shows what Nationalist Government means. We have had the example of the Dublin Corporation. I am now referring to the period of Nationalist management which has existed since 1880. Up to 1880, from the year 1852 and previously, there had been an arrangement that the Lord Mayor of Dublin was to be a Conservative one year and a Liberal the next. That arrangement was carried out honourably by the two parties up to 1880. I can only judge generally, but I should imagine that there were two-thirds of these gentlemen Protestants and one-third Roman Catholics. What happened after the Nationalists got control of the government in 1880? First of all they made the salary into something like £4,000 a year. Then they proceeded to put one of their own men into the office. From 1880 onwards no Unionist has ever been allowed to occupy the office of Lord Mayor, and only two of the occupants were Protestants, and this because they professed themselves as Home Rulers. On the admission of a Home Rule alderman of the Dublin Corporation only the other day the Protestant landlords in Dublin pay half the rates. That is how they are treated in a Nationalist movement by Gentlemen who are now talking about toleration, and inviting us to shut our eyes to the last thirty years and to trust them with our destinies. At the same time, I think there is not a worse managed city, or a city where the rates are higher than in Dublin, controlled by this political Nationalist corporation. The facts speak for themselves. We are not going to submit ourselves to a glorified Dublin Corporation sitting in College Green.

I want to say only a few words about the safeguards, because I see that in several newspapers we have been reproached as being obdurate, narrow-minded, and unreasonable in not doing what the tame Liberal does, and that is saying, "I had some scruples about Home Rule, but the safeguards have quite quieted my conscience." I think the safeguards when they come to be examined are absolutely futile. We will know more about them when we see the Bill in print. The first safeguard is that we are to have a representation out of 160 Members of fifty-nine for Ulster. I take it that Unionist Ulster will have in that Division—if the lists are not gerrymandered, as in all probability they will be, by the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Belfast, who runs Irish Government at present—twenty-nine Members out of 160. We were told today, in answer to a question, that at the end of the first three years the Irish Parliament is to rearrange the whole of the Constituencies. That proposal I would say on the face of it is a piece of political business. Does anyone imagine that the increase of population in Ireland for the next three years will be such as to justify a genuine Redistribution Bill?

You will take into concideration the areas that will be fixed in Ireland. I say it shows fraud. You are creating constituencies now under the eye of the Imperial Parliament for this part of our system, and in three years time yon are going to allow the native Parliament, as they call themselves, to undo all your work and to make a further redistribution. What is the object of that? The only object is to allow them to so adjust circumstances that even the Unionist protection of twenty-nine Members out of 160 will be reduced to the vanishing point. What is the object if it is not to reduce Irish Members? Why is the Irish Parliament to readjust those constituencies in three years? There is no other answer.

We are told we have Imperial supremacy. I should like to remind the House of an incident that happened not so long ago in the hearing of most of us. I remember that when the South African Bill came up for discussion there was a proposal in the Bill to inflict what was called "the colour bar" on people who had any black blood in their veins. They were not to be eligible for Parliament. It applied not only to-black men, but to anyone with a trace of black blood. I remember man after man getting up in this House and saying that was an unfair provision, and that it ought not to be in the Bill, and the Prime Minister of the day said, "I am bound to associate myself with what is said by every speaker in every quarter of the House in the course of this Debate when this provision was being inserted," and the late Leader of the Opposition got up and associated himself with the Prime Minister. Those people who have the colour bar in South Africa had the House of Commons and its Imperial supremacy to protect them; both sides of the House said it was unjust, but what was the Imperial supremacy worth? The Minister in charge got up and said, "The Commonwealth of South Africa will not take this Bill if you remove this proviso." Therefore, with all the admitted injustice of this provision, what was your Imperial supremacy worth to those people with black blood when the Ministry of the day had to say, "We cannot insist upon Imperial supremacy, because the Union Bill would be lost if you take out that provision." That is in the recollection of many Members and that is an instance of Imperial supremacy being absolutely worthless as a safeguard. If you had two parties balanced here in this House and we were to rely on some form of Imperial supremacy in this House to protect us by remedying injustice what would be the answer? It would be said, "Here is your Parliament in Dublin; they have said the other thing; we may have Imperial supremacy, but if the Parliament in Dublin is in earnest in what they say we would have to send over a battleship or a regiment to enforce Imperial supremacy, and once more Imperial supremacy would go. Our protest would go.

Who is going to bring the Irish minority's protest to this House if this Bill is passed? There are 670 Members in this House. If the Irish representation is reduced I presume representation will be increased here. We, the Unionist party in Ireland, are to have eight representatives in this House. Eight is the high water mark of the representation for the Irish minority according to the Prime Minister. How are eight men to attend here throughout the Session to bring forward the grievances of the minority in protecting themselves. The thing is only less ludicrous in practice as everyone knows than the proposal of a nominated Senate. No doubt the Senate at first would be picked with a certain number of decoy ducks in it, but at the end of six years it is to be renominated by hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway who will be in possession of the Irish Government. Is it not a sham—I am not now talking about democratic principles—to say that if our opponents can renominate the Senate that that Senate is likely to be a protection to us. I think the more the safeguards are examined the more ridiculous they appear to be to anyone interested to see fair play in general. At the same time I will say this, and I hope it will not be quoted against me without the context: I do not think the Government could have made the safeguards any better, because it is not legislation so much that can be used to oppress a minority as administration. You cannot legislate against administration. We recognise that fully. There is a safeguard in one of the Clauses relied upon saying that no Church shall be established as a State Church. I will give an instance of a great deal of harm and injustice being done to certain individuals who have offended the Roman Catholic Church or broken some of its canons without the Roman Catholic Church being established at all.

The Prime Minister spoke about the Ne Temere decree and the Motu Proprio. Take the Ne Temere decree. A Roman Catholic marries a Protestant; he or she refuses to go through the ceremony again. A bishop or a priest from the altar says these two people are living in sin. Do you think a national Parliament in College Green would ever allow that man to take any charge in the administration of the affairs of the country, even to fill the position of a doorkeeper, if the priest of their Church said he was living in sin, although legally married according to the law of the land? There is no safeguard in saying you are not to establish a church; it is all a question of administration. Under the existing system the Roman: Catholic bishops have said that Trinity College is a place inimical to the Roman Catholic interests, and they issued an order through the country that no local government district should elect a Trinity College man, however well qualified he may be, to the post of dispensary doctor. A certain Roman Catholic, a member of my own profession, a very devout Catholic, and a leading man who had a son a candidate for a dispensary, went to a high dignitary of the Roman Catholic church, a friend of his own, upon the matter, and this dignitary said to him, "I will do nothing for your son. You allowed him to be educated in Trinity," and therefore the result is a Trinity man never gets a chance of being made a dispensary doctor. That is administration. You cannot put safeguards against administration into any Bill.

Take another case. Take the case of St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin. There are two cathedrals in Dublin that were the property of the Church in Ireland and that were devised to the Church of Ireland by the Church Disestablishment Act. A number of people, members of the Roman Catholic Church, think that we are trespassers, and that they ought to have them back. There was a meeting the other day at a Roman Catholic church at Ringsend, which is also called St. Patrick's, and one of the speakers suggested it would be a very good thing to take over St. Patrick's Protestant Cathedral, paying compensation to us. The Roman Catholic archbishop was there, and he was very enigmatical on the occasion. He devoted most of his address to the infirmity of our title to St. Patrick's Cathedral. Of course, there are some things that money would not compensate for. It is not the money value of the bricks and mortar in the cathedral, it is its connection, antiquity, and history. Under the Home Rule Bill property is not to be taken from anybody without due process of law. I see nothing in the Home Rule Bill that would prevent the Irish Parliament saying, "We will pay compensation for any property that may be taken over by certain people." In one sense that would be the due process of law, and would fall within the safeguards which this Home Rule Bill is to contain. Take the Irish House of Commons itself. This House cannot control the religious service, and I am quite satisfied that the Irish House of Commons will open its proceedings with a religious service, and I am satisfied that service will be in the nature of a Mass. [An HON. MEMBER: "Shame."] I do not see why the hon. Member should cry "Shame," because it will be a Roman Catholic service. Supposing the Irish House of Commons laid down that no man should take part in the debates unless he happened to be present at prayers. I do not say they will make a rule of that kind, and I am only showing how impossible it is to provide safeguards in matters of administration. Nationalist meetings in Ireland are held on Sundays, and in Continental countries Parliament meets on Sundays. Why could not the Roman Catholic majority in the Dublin Parliament hold sittings on Sunday, and if they had the Second Reading of an important Bill on Sunday, what Protestant would attend? I am only giving these illustrations to show how impossible it is to provide by legislation against an abuse of administration.

No religious safeguards will be any protection whatever to the Loyalist minority in Ireland. It might be different if there was only one democracy in Ireland. If you only had a Roman Catholic democracy it might free itself from unnecessary power on the part of the clergy, but where you have a Protestant democracy and a Roman Catholic democracy, sad experience has convinced us very much that they will always be against the Protestant until they have got rid of him. That is what will happen if they get control under this Bill. I find that these very safeguards, worthless as they are, have been condemned by the Roman Catholic Bishop of Kildare, who said that no safeguards were necessary for him. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) said no safeguard could protect the people who opposed the will of the great majority of their fellow-countrymen. The hon. Member for Meath said the other day:— is the kind of peace Home Rule is going to bring. I think our safeguard is the Imperial Parliament, and I believe that is a real safeguard as long as we are allowed to remain in it. I believe injustice would not last very long if we were able to bring it to the notice of this House day after day and week by week, and that is what we want to be able to do.

The only other safeguard is to defend ourselves against oppression and tyranny. I do not believe in making threats at all, because I think they are bad form, but I am not going to say one thing in the country and another in this House. I want to say in no offensive manner, as a man whose belief is shared by hundreds and thousands of his fellow-countrymen, what my policy is. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford said not long ago that the policy of the Nationalist party was to make British Government of Ireland impossible. I say solemnly here that as long as they have a drop of blood in their bodies Ulster men will do their best to make the Government of Ireland in Ulster by the hon. and learned Member for Waterford and his friends impossible, and we shall leave no stone unturned, but do best to make every effort to carry out that policy successfully. We pledged our lives to this policy the other day in Belfast. I do riot want to be taken as threatening—I am only saying what I feel in every fibre of my body. If you are going to plant Home Rule, you cannot do it until you have wiped us out, and the blood will be on your hands and not on ours. I hear a lot about rebellion and treason, and they are nasty words. My point of view is that if, over my head without my consent, you transfer my allegiance to a new Constitution proposed without my consent; if you propose to sell me into a political slavery under the new Constitution you are setting up, I say that I do not regard it as rebelling to resist that to the best of my ability, and, please God, I shall do it. I hope the House will not think I have spoken with excessive warmth, but this is everything to us.

I am sure we have all listened with some sympathy to the speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down, but I trust he will not think me discourteous if I do not reply to the various points he has made. I rise simply for the purpose of saying a few words in support of this Motion from the standpoint of a Welsh Member. Like my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the University of Dublin (Sir Edward Carson), I am one of the survivors of the great fight of 1893, though I am bound to confess that, unlike him, my activity was chiefly confined to marching and countermarching for a very long time through the Lobbies of this House. I notice in the Debates of 1893 and in this Debate, so far as it has proceeded, a very marked change in the atmosphere of the controversy. Many of the arguments against the Home Rule Bill of 1893, which were most strongly urged in that year, appear to have disappeared entirely from the armoury of hon. Gentlemen opposite, and not only has the atmosphere changed, but Ireland itself has. changed, and changed for the better; and if I mistake not, the experience of this country in South Africa has changed the attitude of England also. At any rater there is no change in the views of the Welsh people. In 1893, thirty-one Welsh Members were Home Rulers and only three were Conservatives. It so happens that in this Parliament, as in the Parliament of 1892, there are thirty-one Liberal and Labour Welsh Members and three Conservatives, and I think I may say with confidence the thirty-one Liberal and Labour Members representing Welsh constituencies will do all that in them lies to support the Government in passing this great measure. The reason we shall take that course is riot far to seek, because the ultimate basis of this Irish demand is to be found in that principle of justice to smaller nationalities, the recognition and the application of which has resulted in such great benefit on the Continent of Europe, in our Colonies, and in other parts of the world. That principle of nationality naturally forcibly appeals to the great majority of the people of Wales. This consideration leads me to say that I welcome a statement that was made by the Prime Minister in the course of his powerful speech on Thursday last. It is that passage which has already called forth a good many antagonistic remarks from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Balfour). The Prime Minister said:— some form of Home Rule or autonomy, or at any rate the making of some new constitutional arrangements which will relieve the Imperial Parliament from a burden of work with which it is now struggling with only indifferent success and with growing difficulty. I have to say that I believe the Welsh Members would be very glad indeed to have some such rearrangement as is foreshadowed. We have long contended that in many legislative and administrative matters Wales ought to be treated as a separate unit or entity and the claim has been admitted on many occasions, not only by Liberal, but by Conservative Governments. I am bound to say that there is a growing discontent in the Principality with the existing condition of things, and a movement in the direction of Home Rule has been commenced and appears to me to be meeting with considerably increasing support and favour. I have, of course, no right to speak for Scotland, but I say confidently that, though the details of any Home Rule plan for Wales has never been thrashed out, the Welsh people will not be in the least dismayed at the prospect of getting some form of autonomy or Home Rule in due course when this matter of Ireland has been settled.

I refer to that matter incidentally, not so much because I wish to advocate on this occasion the claim of Wales, but because it appears to me this question has some considerable bearing upon our attitude towards the details of this Irish Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London appeared to think that a federal arrangement was contemplated, and he appeared to deduce from that supposition the notion that the arrangement must be entirely uniform. Of course, if indeed it is proposed to create three subordinate Governments in addition to the new Government for Ireland, it is a very important question for one to ask oneself whether the Constitution, the powers of legislation, and the methods of administration of each of these subordinate Governments should be uniform, and whether the relations between each of them and the central Government should be substantially, mutatis mutandis, identical. I do not think that is at all a necessity, and I shall approach the consideration of the details of this Bill without being fettered by the notion that I am joining in developing a plan which will necessarily be a model for other subordinate Governments which may have to be established. I do not at all agree with the use of the term "federalism" as applied to the system that would in that way be created, or as it was used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London. Federalism, as I have always understood, means the joining together for certain purposes of a number of independent and sovereign States. Federalism is the kind of government that exists in the United States. But what we are contemplating and engaged in doing at the present moment is not federation, but the devolution of certain powers to other subordinate authorities. I ask myself, looking at the Bill as a whole, what is there to say about it? So far as I understand its provisions, which I thought were clearly enough explained by the Prime Minister, I regard it as a well-conceived, carefully thought out, and thoroughly just and practical measure, and it appears to me it is one that is likely to prove a lasting settlement of the Irish question, and one which will certainly tend to promote the prosperity and happiness of the Irish people as a whole. Until I see the Bill in print I prefer not to commit myself on its details. I shall certainly ask, in due course, for some explanation of the reason for the Senate being nominated, and I have no doubt that reasons will be adduced why that course has been adopted.

With regard to the question of Ulster, it strikes me as being the main ground of opposition to this measure. I desire to say that I approach the attitude of the Ulster Members with some degree of sympathy. I can see that they will form a minority, at first at any rate, and that the Protestants, and especially the Ulster Protestants, will be in a minority in the new Parliament when it is started at Dublin. As a member of a small minority for ten years—from 1895 to 1906—my memory is too recent not to know that the position of a minority may be an extremely trying one. But without going over the safeguards, without attempting to show that hon. Members from Ulster are mistaken as to the illusory character of the safeguards introduced, may I point out that the whole of their argument is based on the notion that persons of their views will always be in a minority in the Irish Parliament There is no doubt the cleavage of parties will, in the first instance, turn upon race and religion, but that will not be the condition surely for very long.

Not more than one Parliament in my view, because I think that the area of legislation, although circumscribed, is so important that unless you are to assume an absolute diversity of economic interests between Ulster and the rest of Ireland the cleavage of parties must come not between Protestantism and Catholicism, but between classes—capital and labour, landlord and tenant, and people in cities and people in the country. Therefore without wishing to be dogmatic, and without any desire to be offensive to any hon. Member for Ulster, I say that, whatever may be thought about the safeguards in the Bill, the real safeguard for Ulster is that it should throw itself heart and soul into making the new Government of Ireland a success, and if they will exert the great influence which the men of the North must have, I believe that they will form, in a very short time, a party large enough under the new Government to substantially control, and perhaps ultimately supersede that Nationalist and Catholic Government of which they have such apprehension. Of course, the whole controversy, in my view, really results in this question: "Do you, or do you not, trust the common-sense of the Irish people? The Irish people are already trusted by the Constitution to a very large extent, as much, indeed, as men from other parts of the country, and we are engaged in asking ourselves whether we can extend that confidence which I, for one, am perfectly willing to extend to the Irish people, because I believe that, when thoroughly trusted, they have the same capacity of self-restraint which other races possess. I also believe that, in times of stress and storm, if such should come, the Irish people will, as in the past, be ready to sacrifice and subordinate their own particular interests to the common good. Of course our confidence may be misplaced and our hopes may possibly be disappointed. In Nature's infinite book of secrecy we can read but little, and what little we can read does not enable us to foretell with absolute certainty the future consequences of any political action. We can only guide our conduct in the affairs of State by inferences drawn from our experience of human nature, observation of the present, and from the lessons of history. Tried by these tests, I believe that a large-hearted and generous policy towards Ireland is more likely to succeed than to fail, more likely to cement than to dissolve the union between that country and Great Britain.

I cannot help, as an Irishman, confessing to considerable astonishment at the great optimism shown by the hon. Baronet who has just spoken. I do not know whether he has studied Irish history, but surely it is rather too much to expect us to believe that the division which has existed in Irish life since the passing of the Statute of Kilkenny—in 1361—is going to be brought to an end in the first Session of an Irish Parliament, which certainly one quarter of the Irish people most cordially mistrust and will do all in their power to fight against. For more than six centuries Ireland has been divided into two camps, and the hon. Baronet has not given us any reason whatever to think that, by reopening old sores and allowing them to fight the matter out for themselves, another solution will be reached. The chief characteristic of the speeches we have listened to in support of the Bill is, I think, that they have all failed to say a single word as to what compensation Irishmen may expect from this mad gambling with Home Rule. No Nationalist speaker, no speaker on the opposite side of the House, has told us what the Home Rule party will do with it when they get it, if they ever do. No one has produced a single instance of a case in recent years where the Imperial Parliament has refused to deal with an Irish grievance, and there have been no suggestions whatever how Irish prosperity can be increased by handing over these affairs to an Irish Assembly. It is significant to notice that the Nationalist Members no longer talk of effecting a saving in the administration of the country: they know very well that it is impossible for them to recommend Home Rule to their constituents by, for instance, suggesting the cutting down of Irish old age pensions, and the right hon. Gentleman now sitting on the Treasury Bench (Mr. Birrell) must know as well as anybody that a saving in Irish administration is impossible. Otherwise why did the right hon. Gentleman, when he proposed under the Irish Councils Bill to set up certain Irish Departments under Irish control, propose to give them a largely increased grant? If the Irish services are extravagant to-day why should the Government propose to give an extra half-million to run them? The cause of the extravagance of Irish administration rests on a foundation so grotesque that we have not had it brought forward in this Debate, although it has done excellent service in the country. The hon. Member for South Down (Mr. MacVeagh) and other pamphleteers are never tired of comparing the Irish Civil Service with the Scotch Civil Service, oblivious of the fact that the Scotch Civil Service is largely located in London, whereas the Irish Civil Service pays its Income Tax in Ireland. They are never tired of showing us figures under Schedule E of the Income Tax, upon which they argue that 4,500 Irish officials are battening upon Imperial expenditure. They neglect the fact, which they ought to know perfectly well, that that figure of 4,500 includes 1,600 clergy of the Church of Ireland, who are paid by the representative body of the Church, and are in no sense Civil servants; 340 bank officials, and many other payments of the same class, and that the Civil servants chargeable upon the Irish Estimates only number a little over 1,500. Anybody who has studied the matter must know that every Board and every Department in Ireland has its counterpart in Great Britain except the Constabulary and the organisation connected with the Land Acts. If the Irish Government proposes to continue any form of civilised Government whatever, it will have to continue these services, and they will not be able to effect any reduction.

9.0 P.M.

Although we have not had any argument of a financial or practical kind, we have certainly listened to sentimental arguments. The Irishman is to have Home Rule because Ireland wants it, or at least some part of Ireland wants it. It is very significant that the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. John Redmond) parried the question as to how far he would be prepared to grant Home Rule. Would he carry the principle so far as giving it to Ulster, where the majority of the inhabitants are in favour of controlling their own affairs, rather than be put under the Nationalist party in Dublin? Of course he knew that if he refused to give Home Rule to Ulster he would be giving the whole case away, and he knew quite well that a Nationalist Parliament, after the withdrawal of Ulster, would immediately become bankrupt, because Ulster pays three-fourths of the Customs Duties of Ireland. The idea is to run Nationalist: government on a tribute drawn partly from England and partly from Ulster. The hon. Member for North Wexford (Sir T. Esmonde), in this Debate, went so far as to say that it was only a minority in Ulster that was opposed to Home Rule. The Census taken last year shows that in Ulster there are 886,000 Protestants, including Wesleyans and so on, and only 690,000 Roman Catholics. The Protestant Home Euler is a far rarer exception than the Unionist Roman Catholic, and my reason for saying that is that if you take the last returns which are available you will find that there is not a single case where there was a Protestant, majority in a constituency in which a Nationalist Member was returned, whereas you will find that there are two constituencies in Ulster with Roman Catholic majorities which returned Unionist Members—Londonderry City and North Fermanagh. That supports my belief that the Unionist Roman Catholic is far commoner than a Nationalist Protestant.

There is no doubt whatever that the majority in Ulster is against Home Rule, and the fact that the Unionist representation of Ulster only slightly exceeds the Nationalist representation is due to the extraordinary distribution of political power in that province. Unionist borough Members in Ulster represent 10,100 votes apiece, whereas the Nationalist Members throughout the whole of Ireland, including such constituencies as Galway City, as well as the counties, only represent 5,900 electors. You cannot ignore the majority against Home Rule in Lister. In Ulster you find a very strange phenomenon. You find men whose natural sympathies are Liberal, and even Socialist, who yet support the Unionist party. Where you observe oil and water mixing you will look for a very powerful force defeating the laws of gravitation, and if this House neglects to take warning from this fact the blood of the explosion will be on their own heads. Ulster, I think, can look after itself, but unfortunately there are 250,000 Protestants in the other three provinces of Ireland who have no hope whatever of any representation in any Home Rule Nationalist Parliament. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] An hon. Member says it is nonsense, but what hope have we from the record of local government in Ireland? We were told that the minority were going to be given a fair chance there. They have never had it. The only way in which those 250,000 Unionists in Ireland, outside Ulster, can ever hope for a single Member to represent them, is by some form of proportional representation which this Bill does not offer. Outside Ulster there are out of 600 only sixteen Unionist members on county councils. Is that a fair proportion I Does that give us good cause to hope for consideration in a Nationalist Parliament, except under some system of proportional representation? I do not know that Irishmen can seriously expect that peace will be brought about by the proposals of the present Bill. Ireland had self-government before the days of Strongbow. It was certainly not under one Government. It was only nominally under an over-king, but out of the 200 Irish kings of whom any annals and records exist, 170 came to a violent end. After 1170 Ireland had Home Rule for 200 years, until the fact that they supported a rival king brought about the passing of Poyning's Act. In those three centuries, although the Reformation had not yet brought religious strife to complicate the Irish question, there was no peace in the country, and when England enforced the system of plantations they brought about a deeper racial and religious cleavage. That cleavage has wrecked Irish prosperity by dividing the country for centuries into two camps, too busy with oppressing each other ever to unite for the good of the country.

I am not concerned with the question of who is most to blame for this deplorable story of Irish Government. The House has listened to accusations of intolerance and injustice against the Protestants, but there is a good deal to be said on the other side as well; and when they hear about the inhumanities of Cromwell, they must also remember that there were thousands of Protestants brutally murdered before and after the defeat of Munro at Armagh in 1646. That is only one case of that lamentable history of continual reprisals between the two sects in Ireland. This long continued strife is apparently at last dying down. The hon. Member (Mr. William O'Brien) has done a great work in Ireland by supporting in the Nationalist party a policy of conciliation. Why should you destroy this prospect at this moment when it gives us such bright expectations? Remember that the proposal is to hand over the government of Ireland to those who, on their own admission, dislike Irish prosperity. The hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) has admitted that he dislikes Irish prosperity. In a letter in the "Times" on 15th January last he said that the reason for which he opposed the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, which has done such magnificent work for the benefit of farmers in Ireland, was that that movement had as its avowed object to turn the farmers of Ireland from the barren politics of Nationalism to practical movements for which the way had now been cleared. Is it right to hand over Ireland to those who, on their own confession, are prepared to sacrifice the material progress of the country in the interests of their own political intrigues, who opposed the settlement of the land question, who have opposed the settlement of everything that should bring contentment and peace to Ireland, and who, for their own purposes, keep prodding the festering sore of Irish discontent to prevent it healing. Before the House accepts these proposals they ought surely to be convinced that they will bring about a lasting settlement, a settlement which will bring less friction, which would be consistent with the safety of Great Britain, and which would be just to the minority in Ireland. You must admit that this Bill has apparently been very skilfully drafted in the hope that Great Britain will fix its attention on the comparatively small powers which would at first devolve upon the Irish legislature, will overlook their temporary character and will forget the position which will arise when the complete, or more complete, control of Irish services is vested in the national legislature. The passing of this Bill would only be the beginning of the controversy.

The financial proposals are extremely complicated, but the most optimistic cannot believe that they will lead to anything but friction. Even the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herbert Samuel), who is generally so lucid, was unable to make them clear this afternoon, but as far as one could understand, Ireland will become no worse off if the Customs duties and other duties imposed by the Imperial Parliament become less productive, because any increase or any continuance of the duties at their present figures will only lead to the decreasing of the British subsidy to Ireland. Surely as any new taxation which Ireland wishes to put on will be devoted entirely to Irish purposes, without any deductions, with the object of reducing the British subsidy, it would be to the interest of Ireland to get the full benefit of the taxation borne by the country by transferring its incidence to these new forms of taxation where they will benefit, not the British taxpayer but the Irish taxpayer, and where, instead of decreasing the subsidy, they will be paid into the Irish account and will be available to be spent in whatever way the Irish legislature chooses. There is no doubt whatever that Ireland will have opportunities of using this Bill for their own ends and of evading their obligations to finish the state of dependence on Great Britain, and that a great deal of ill-feeling will result. Of course, for the moment, with a prospective Irish deficit for purely Irish purposes of £1,500,000 a year, it is impossible to balance the account and, as far as one can see, Ireland will receive no direct financial benefit when they do obtain that balance. Their sole incentive, as far as I can make out, to balance the account will be a separatist ambition to control the whole of Irish taxation, and at the end of six years to get a report from the Joint Board which will enable the whole responsibility for the collection of Irish taxation to be handed over to the Irish Parliament. The Government, of course, say that the agitation for separation is at an end, but let us assume that we are right and that this agitation for separation continues and induces the Irish Parliament, by means of heavy taxation on Ulster, to bring about a financial equilibrium, to get control of their own taxation and for the moment to submit to an Imperial contribution. How long do you think Ireland will submit to that Imperial contribution? How are you going to enforce it when Ireland has got control of the Constabulary and of the Customs officials? How are you going to extract this money which Ireland owes you? How soon will this Irish contribution be looked upon as a tribute to the Saxon? How soon will the Irish refuse absolutely to part with a single penny of Irish taxation? How will you enforce Free Trade within the United Kingdom when you do not control the machinery of taxation? Of course, the fiscal barriers set up in the Bill are entirely inconsistent with any system of federalism. The powers which it is proposed to vest in the Irish Legislature are greater than have ever been given to any Federal Provincial Assembly. The basis of federalism is to have a common fiscal system, a common government, and a common justiciary. There must be a common responsibility for Imperial services fixed by a definite proportion of joint burdens. If Ireland is really to take a fair share of Imperial burdens, surely she will have a right to equal representation. Surely there will be no cause to cut down the number of Members she sends to the Imperial Parliament to forty-two. If she is not to take a share in Imperial burdens, she has no right to any representation at all.

I think the Government have taken up an absolutely unjustifiable attitude in reducing the Irish representation and at the same time saying that Ireland is in the future to contribute to the Imperial expenditure. The Prime Minister would have done very much better to leave the Colonial analogy alone. There is absolutely nothing in common between the grant of Home Rule to Ireland and the grant of a Constitution to the Transvaal. The Transvaal has been governed as a Crown Colony, whereas Ireland has got responsible government, and she is actually over-represented in this Assembly. It is also impossible to draw any comparison between the proposed relations between the Imperial Parliament and the Irish Parliament and the relations between the Imperial Parliament and any existing Colonial Government. Colonial Government works smoothly in the British Empire because there is no real supremacy; it is only a paper supremacy which has never been put in force. Above all, in the case of a Colonial Government, it is supported by the people governed. The present Government dare not even suggest to give Colonial Home Rule to Ireland, and they keep the financial entanglements, which must inevitably irritate both parties to the bargain. Above all, they must know that an internal condition which is essential to smooth government, namely, the support of the people governed, is absolutely impossible owing to the domestic dissensions which unfortunately divide Ireland. The scheme must inevitably lead to more friction and reopen the old wounds. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford made out on the opening night of this Debate that the Nationalist party, and he in particular, will accept this scheme as final. It is not in his power to do so. Let me remind the House of only one condition which this scheme, does not fulfil, and which is essential, on his own showing, to finality. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford, in the discussion on the Home Rule Bill of 1893, said:— to diminish the present control of Ireland over religion, education, and trade. It is perfectly certain that those who have been moved by the cry of "Ireland a nation" will not long consent to submit to this disability. I do also make an appeal to the sense of justice in this House. Can even the most sanguine—can even those members of the Eighty Club who went over to Ireland and thought they could master the question in a fortnight—be confident that the minority in Ireland will obtain justice? Remember that here in England the political party which is in a minority to-day can look forward with confidence to a term of political power in the future, whereas in the future the minority in Ireland will have no such prospect. They will be condemned to political servitude for the whole of their lifetime. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because in Ireland you have two camps, two races, and two religions, and because for six centuries you have never found that bitter differences have been absent.

And how can you expect that the Loyalists will ever see eye to eye with the Nationalists? How in view of the record of the Nationalist party can you ever expect them to show any generosity to the minority who do not agree with them? The proposal of this Bill is to set up a system of rule by men absolutely out of touch with the largest non-political interests in Ireland. That has been admitted by Professor Kettle whose eloquent speeches in this House I am sure many of us remember. He has stated that the United Irish League, who, as hon. Members know very well, control elections to a large extent in Ireland, had on the roll of its members no landlord or ex-landlord, and that few merchants, fewer Irish manufacturers, few of the men who are managing the business of Ireland in city or town, are connected with the League:—

But the menace does not extend only to political matters. It extends to every relation of private life as well. I know that there are many hon. Members especially below the Gangway, who would like to leave out the religious question altogether, but it has got to be faced. You cannot ignore it. It is of the essence of the question. Rightly or wrongly we in Ireland who are not Roman Catholics fervently believe in this danger and ask to be satisfied that it is not a real danger, satisfied in a way that we certainly have not been satisfied so far. Our case cannot be met by ignoring it. We ask for no ascendancy. [An HON. MEMBER: "You have it."] "We claim no religious establishment. We only demand freedom of conscience for all, undisturbed by any external interference or compulsion, the freedom of conscience which we believe to be the birthright of every citizen of the United Kingdom. Personally I admire the Roman Catholic Church; I admire it for its strength, for it vitality. But everything strong must try to impose itself on its surroundings. Equilibrium never comes from within. It has to be imposed from without by the pressure of external checks. No vigour can exist in such a body except by pressure ever expanding beyond the limits already won. It is the same throughout Nature. You have to prune your hedge to prevent it keeping out the sun. The Roman Catholic Church, like the hedge, is only strong by being compelled and driven to development within, by strengthening its internal growth within proper limits. And it is an important function of civilisation to restrain the strong from infringing the liberties of the defenceless. This view is quite consistent with the views quoted by the hon. Member for Mayo this evening that in the long run Home Rule would be dangerous to the Roman Catholic Church. I think eventually the removal of checks on the interference of the Roman Catholic Church in political matters might lead to a revolt against religious tyranny, but that revolt would be bad for the Church just as it would be for religious liberty in Ireland.

In England religion and politics are limited to their own sphere. They are not allowed to poison or affect business or friendly intercourse. Ireland, because religious and racial cleavages correspond, has a far deeper fissure in its life than has ever existed in England. In Ireland there is a society, the Ancient Society of Hibernans, with 400,000 members, which exists with the object of exterminating the Protestant community of Ireland. [Laughter.] I knew that hon. Members below the Gangway would object to that statement, but those are not my words; I would not make that statement myself. I am quoting a statement in the "Cork Free Press," the organ of the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. W. O'Brien), and that article goes on to say that the object of the Hibernian Society is to give a preference to its own members first and to Catholics afterwards as against Protestants on all occasions—

I do not know whether it was by intimidation or bribery, but, as a matter of fact, the official Nationalists were so afraid of disclosures that they did not defend the election petition. I think it is very undesirable that Parliamentary candidates should be liable to this kind of intimidation. Ireland cannot free itself from this plague spot except at excessive cost. The Grattan Parliament did nothing to unite the warring factions in Ireland; they only buttressed up the Protestant ascendancy. If that experience teaches anything it only teaches the same old lesson, the lesson of Spain, the lesson of the religious wars throughout Europe, until religious equilibrium was produced after the Reformation. But wherever you have any case of contact between two religious sects you will have bigotry and intolerance not only on one side, but, I am afraid, on both. However the minority may talk about freedom of conscience you will never get it. Surely England, who solved this question for itself, who ended Protestant ascendency in Ireland, cannot clear the ground for Catholic ascendency; it cannot go back to' the disastrous solution of allowing the two creeds in Ireland to fight the matter out in bitterness and strife. All that Ireland needs is to keep down its political temperature. If you concentrate in a small space the Irish Legislature, all the heat generated by all the factions which divide the country, the new and tender plant of Irish prosperity must inevitably be destroyed. We have no cause to hope in Ireland that bygones will be looked upon as bygones.

We have seen the fate of the independent Nationalist who dared to preach on conciliation, and those who fervently believe in the justice of the Imperial Parliament and the advantage of the Imperial connection cannot forget the warning of the hon. Member for East Mayo, that in the time of their power they would remember the enemies of the people. There is no need to let loose hell in Ireland. For the last thirty years the new era of contentment has dawned. The storm in Irish life has subsided, and it will not take very long for the swell to run down. The power of the Home Rule agitation is dying out, and it largely depended on the anxiety of the people to settle the land question, which they were told was dependent upon the grant of self-government to Ireland. Ireland enjoys the same Constitution as Great Britain. Under that Constitution Nationalist Ireland possesses twice the power in this House that the number of her electors entitles her to. Surely if England can get liberty and justice under her Constitution it is good enough for Ireland as well. I have laid no stress upon the Imperial danger of Home Rule, but I may quote a saying of General Gordon, "That the British Empire was made by adventurers, and it would be lost by politicians." I beg the House to forget that they are politicians. I beg them to mistrust any consideration of mere party expediency, and to look at the question as practical men. Now that the black spectre of the land question has been laid—

Now that there is a prospect of the black spectre being laid, now that a new generation is beginning to forget the melancholy past, to uproot the whole political system, and to fire the country with bigotry and strife, would be to inflict a wrong on Ireland which could not be matched in all the centuries of British misrule, neglect, and indifference of which the Nationalist party are never tired of reminding us.

The hon. Gentleman in the course of a somewhat lengthy speech went back a very long way in the history of Ireland. He commenced by arguing against this Bill, by telling us that in the days before Strongbow a number of Irish kings met with violent deaths. He told us a great deal about the alleged massacre in the year 1641. I submit, with great respect, that references of that kind to very ancient history will not carry us much more forward at this time of the world's history in the discussion of such a measure as that which is now before the House. I think the hon. Gentleman himself upon reflection will come to the conclusion that both from the point of view of his own friends in Ireland and those who are represented upon those benches there is far more likelihood of a good future for Ireland and a satisfactory arrangement between the several creeds, if we mutually agree to leave alone these references to the past, and to consider the future of Ireland and the betterment of her conditions. The hon. Member made one or two other references to which I must allude. He said that the Ancient Order of Hibernians in Ireland had for its object, if not for the extermination of Protestants in Ireland, certainly the treatment of them with injustice.

I did not catch from whom the hon. Gentleman made the quotation, but I assure the House, and I speak with a full sense of responsibility, that a statement of that kind with regard to the Hibernian Society, or, as far as I know, any society in Ireland, is absolutely devoid of foundation. The hon. Member referred in a very scornful way to some incident which took place in an election contest in Ireland. He said that there was a certain amount of intimidation practised, and from that I suppose he deduced the argument that the Irish people were not fitted for Home Rule. I need not remind this House that during the course of last election, if we are to look at cases of intimidation, or illegitimate action at the poll, there were in Scotland, in England, and in Wales far more instances of illegitimate action at elections than could be cited in Ireland. [Interruption.] I think the hon. Gentlemen below me will agree that it is advisable, as far as we can, to conduct this Debate in freedom from recrimination and bitterness. As far as I am concerned, speaking for myself, I entirely refuse to be led either by hon. Gentlemen below me or by hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway into any display of bitterness, which I think Irishmen of all parties in the House to-night would only regret. There was one other statement made to which I must give a most emphatic contradiction. The hon. Member quoted a statement which was alleged to have been made by the hon. Member for Waterford in Buffalo in the State of New York in America, a statement in which it was alleged that the object of the hon. Gentlemen was to secure the complete independence of Ireland, and that nothing less would satisfy him. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last said that the same statements were made by Mr. Parnell. I prefer to quote, not from any outside authority, but the words of Mr. Parnell himself, and the words also of the Member for Waterford. Both of those Gentlemen stated on occasions like the present in the discussion of Home Rule Bills, that the measures proposed conferring statutory government on Ireland would be accepted by them, and accepted by the Irish people as a satisfactory settlement and a fair compromise of the quarrel between Ireland and Great Britain.

With regard to myself, I only desire to say that I am here to-night one of the very few Members indeed who are left in this House to-day who took part in the great discussion on the Home Rule Bill of 1886. I voted for that Bill in 1886 and I voted for the Bill in 1893, and to-morrow night I hope to vote for the third time for a measure which is, I believe, absolutely necessary for the peace and well-being of Ireland and of the people in Ireland. I have been, like many of my colleagues, all my life in this movement. For twenty-nine years in this House, and for a great number of years outside of this House, I have done everything in my power to promote this movement, and therefore I trust the House will pardon me if I intervene for a very short space. In the course of this movement I have heard many statements both in favour of Ireland and against Ireland made in this House, and I ask the House to believe me when I say, with all the sincerity that I can command, that I never heard a statement in my political life which affected me so, and I believe affected the Irish people at large so much, a statement which I believe will have such far-reaching results, as the statement made in the course of the masterly address of the Prime Minister in introducing this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman was asked, when he referred, in the course of his speech, to the nation, by way of interruption, "What nation," and his reply was, in tones which I do not hesitate to say went straight to the hearts of the Irish Members the Irish nation." I say that after that statement by the Prime Minister the settlement of the Irish quesion is made comparatively easy. Recognise the separate and distinct national spirit of Ireland and you have gone a long way towards enabling the Irish people to meet you in a fair spirit for a satisfactory settlement.

What has been the history of our country? Century after century every attempt has been made to stifle and to insult the idea of Irish nationality. Oceans of blood and tears have been shed to wipe out and destroy the idea of Irish nationality. That has been formally and officially recognised before the world by the words of the Prime Minister. I say to the House that the words of the Prime Minister in introducing this Bill have got right round the world, and they have brought satisfaction and joy and pride to the hearts of the Irish race everywhere. Those words have done more to bring Ireland near in friendship and good spirit to Great Britain than ever was done before. I believe myself that when this question comes finally to be settled, the real date of the mutual spirit of friendship between Great Britain and Ireland, which we believe is about to be established, will be I largely traced to the noble words of the Prime Minister when unhesitatingly he recognised in this great Assembly the national spirit for which the Irish people have worked so long and so hard. There are only three points in this controversy to which I desire to refer. In the first place may I, with the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. John Dillon), devote a few phrases to considering what there is in the argument which we have heard made, even by the last speaker, that Ireland does not sincerely and really make this demand, that the demand should not be granted because there is no reason to believe in the truth and in the sincerity of the assertions and the promises and the statements of the men who sit upon these benches. I will ask you to allow me to point out, as I can with some authority in my own person, that this Bill is calculated not only to satisfy the people in Ireland, but is calculated to satisfy a demand which is world wide and to satisfy the longing of the Irish race in every part of the world. There is nothing which the opponents of this Bill in this House and the country are fonder of asserting than that the demand for Home Rule in Ireland is not a genuine demand. It was insinuated by the last speaker that we sit on these benches through the result of some illegitimate action, and that if the electors of Ireland were left perfectly free that a different verdict would be given. In a word, it is stated that Home Rule is not really desired by Ireland, and that we in giving voice to that demand are voicing what is not the real and true sentiment of Ireland, and that but for the activity of politicians who sit in this party Ireland would settle down and the demand for Home Rule would be unheard. An hon. Friend above the Gangway assents to that and agrees that that argument is made.

I read in a description of the first day's Debate here one statement which interested me extremely. It was to the effect that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Morpeth (Mr. Burt), who is the Father of the House, and who is a man to whom Members of all parties alike pay the utmost respect, that he alone of all the Members in the House of Commons to-day, 670 in number, voted in favour of Home Rule for Ireland in the year 1874. Not a single Member from Ireland upon these benches was here in 1874. Many of those who are now present were then unborn; certainly none of them were in public life. Yet Home Rule for Ireland in that year, by another generation, by a set of men who lived and worked, spoke and thought, before us, was demanded as ardently as it is to-day. From this very spot where I now stand my own father forty years ago voiced the demand for Home Rule. If it is desired to deny us Home Rule for any reason that may seem good to hon. Members above the Gangway, let it be refused to us; but I would in common honesty appeal to all parties to drop the shallow and hollow pretence that Ireland does not want it. Ireland has asked for it generation after generation. It was asked for before this party was formed by the late Mr. Parnell. There has never been a generation or a year since Ireland lost her Parliament that this demand has not been made, and it was never made by any party or by any section of Irishmen representing their country when the same taunt was not levelled against them: "You do not represent Ireland; if the Irish people could but speak their true minds they are satisfied with the Union." Hon. Members above the Gangway who speak so strongly about the Unionist minority in the south of Ireland are unable to win a single seat in that part of the country. The hon. Member who spoke last (Mr. Walter Guinness) seems to think it is because his co-religionists are not in sufficient numbers. That is not the reason. In the south of Ireland, at any rate, religion is no mark of political division at all. In the south and west many co-religionists of the hon. Member are entirely in favour of the Home Rule demand. If this be so, and they are unable to win a single seat, with what justice can they come to this House and claim to speak more than we do for the opinion of the majority of the Irish people?

10.0 P.M.

We are told by hon. Members above the Gangway that because Ireland is in a better condition to-day owing to remedial legislation, there is no need for Home Rule. With thirty years' experience of this House I ask how that remedial legislation, which we are all glad to know is doing Ireland good, came about? The whole course of remedial legislation in Ireland has been one long standing argument in favour of Home Rule. We only got relief for the land, for local government, and in the matter of higher education, by long years of suffering and agitation on the part of the people. We in Ireland believe and know that had we had the right to deal with these matters these reforms would have been granted years and years ago. The hon. Member above the Gangway (Mr. W. Guinness) only repeated what many of his Friends have said when he stated, as an argument for refusing Home Rule, that the Irish Members of Parliament who voice the demand here are, because of their past record, not to be trusted. You appeal to English people and their representatives by saying, "These men for a long time have denounced British rule in Ireland; their language) has been unmeasured; they have never hesitated when they thought it right to express their sympathy even with those engaged in arms against the British Empire. Can you trust such men?" I declare my own position, which I believe is the position of every Irish Nationalist Member here. Deprived in Ireland of every vestige of liberty such as your Constitution boasts of, denied the right of free speech and free meeting, seeing the Habeas Corpus Act suspended, having in existence coercion laws which never were nor could be put into existence in this country—under these circumstances we were loud in our denunciation, not of the masses of the English people, not of the interests of the Empire, of which Ireland is a part, but of that system of government which was forcibly put upon Ireland against the will of the Irish people, that system of government called "Dublin Castle," which has been so absolutely futile for the benefit of any interest of the Empire, and one long record of disaster, death, misery, and eviction to the Irish people. Do you suppose that the masses of the English people and their representatives are, in view of the circumstances in which we were placed, disposed to withhold what is just to Ireland because we, under the stress of coercion and oppression had the courage as men to protest against what we believed was injuring our country?

Sometimes I think that hon. Members in their anxiety to belittle the Members of this party do not realise what some of us have gone through. Many Members here in years gone by have given the best proof of their sincerity: they have gone through many months, some of them indeed years of suffering, which I believe is beginning to be appreciated by the masses of the English people to-day. I am not ashamed, nor afraid, of going before an audience of British people in any part of Britain to-day to justify the action of the Irish representatives in denouncing and in struggling against the system which had existed to govern Ireland. We say that under the altered circumstances, with offered friendship and liberty, instead of oppression and derision, that the Irish people and their representatives are absolutely consistent in saying they are prepared for a better, a freer, and a nobler future with the people of this country. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Moore), in his speech, referred a little, but not too much, to South Africa. He said that the Colony of Natal might be taken as representative of Ulster. That Colony of Natal, he said, had held out against the South African Union and had threatened all sorts of strong measures against that Union. That Colony had sworn that although all the rest of South Africa were willing to come in under one Government in the Empire, it would not.

The Colony of Natal was not unlike that portion of Ulster which is represented by the hon. Gentleman and his Friends. Natal said it would never consent to join the Union. Ulster says the same. To-day Natal, the warlike and the dissenting, is a loyal, contented, and satisfied part of South Africa. I believe so far as South Africa goes that the illustration will be borne out in the case of Ulster. Like Natal, Ulster to-day will have nothing to do with the rest of the country. It holds aloof. I believe that under fair conditions Ulster will come in just as Natal did. I refer, however, to South Africa, not merely to mention Natal, but for the purpose of bringing in another illustration. When these charges of unfitness and disloyalty are directed against those men who like myself have been here for years, who have gone through coercion, who have taken our punishment in prison, I believe like men, who have suffered the degradation put upon us more than once by the late Leader of the Opposition—personally I have no ill-will against him whatever—when these charges are made against us that we are not to be trusted or believed, how much do we differ from those Dutchmen in South Africa to-day, who have been given the fullest powers of self-government, and who were welcomed with effusive joy by the English people when they came to this country? We may have denounced British rule, denounced the system established against our will which we thought was disastrous to our country. The men at the head of the South African Government to-day did not satisfy themselves with denouncing British rule, as you charge us with doing They came out under arms, and for three long years they fought you more bitterly and more disastrously than possibly ever you had been fought in your history.

The hon. Gentleman says that I cheered them. Most decidedly. The majority not only of Irish Members here, but large numbers of British representatives in this House, aye, and millions of as loyal citizens as you are outside of this House, sympathised with the Boers. Who is prepared to get up now and say that the Boers were not entitled to fight for their liberty? Who is prepared now to justify the Jameson raid? Who is there to get up now and say that the Dutch people are not entitled to their liberty; that their rights should not be respected? The Postmaster-General, in his most able speech this afternoon, referred to the fact that the late Opposition Leader opposed the settlement in South Africa. He quoted a speech made by the Leader of the Opposition, in which that right hon. Gentleman, on behalf of his party, washed his hands of the settlement in South Africa, and de-dared it to be a dangerous and a disastrous thing for the Empire. It was undertaken. It has been justified in its results. However bitterly you may refer to our struggles in the past, they have been struggles entailing sometimes a good deal of sacrifice and personal suffering; however bitterly you may refer to these, we turn from you who denied justice to South Africa, to the vast mass of the people. We believe when we appeal to them to treat us with the same confidence, friendship, and trust as the Dutch in South Africa were trusted and treated with, that they will believe us.

Just one word as to what the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken declared to be the Imperial aspect of this case. What is the Imperial aspect of the Home Rule easel I speak as one who has had the inestimable advantages of two or three times visiting exhaustively almost every part of the British Empire. There is no corner of Australia that I have not been twice in. I have been through Canada. I have been in South Africa. I have been in New Zealand. I can speak with some little first-hand authority and knowledge of these matters. I do not depend for what I say on cablegrams that may appear in the newspapers of any party. I speak of what I saw and heard. Whether you like it or not, beyond all question, beyond all reasonable doubt, the overwhelming, sentiment of the whole of your Colonial Empire is in favour of Home Rule for Ireland. Hon, Gentlemen here sometimes claim, in so many words, that they are the guardians and protectors, and the only ones who understand what the real meaning of the British Empire is! If that be really their position, how do they answer this: how do they meet the undoubted fact that the Empire is in favour of Home Rule? Why is the Empire in favour of Home Rule? For two reasons: in the first place the people of the Empire have seen Home Rule working out at home. They have seen in every part of the Empire disturbance, disloyalty, and rivalry give place to unity, brotherhood, and friendship amongst men of all classes and of all religions, once they came to sit together side by side in national and local Parliaments of their own. The Empire, too, is in favour of Home Rule because the Empire has seen what effect Home Rule has upon Irishmen there.

The Irish people, God knows, are often enough misrepresented in their own country. We are described as being men unfitted for the responsibilities of the work of government. Our people sometimes are sneered at and twitted because their education, through no fault of their own, is not up to the standard of other people's. From a variety of points of view we are misrepresented arid belittled, but all your Colonial Governors in any part of the world can tell you the story of what Irishmen have done in every part of the Empire if you ask them. There is no-Parliament in Australia, in Canada, no Parliament in any part of your Empire, where Irishmen like ourselves of the same flesh and blood, the same sentiments, the same history and traditions, the same deep religious feeling, are not to be found among the most loyal, the most able, the most contented, and the most respected in the British Empire. Why? Because there they find they are treated with equality, because there they find there are no traditions of prejudice against them, either on account of their race or their creed. And therefore it is that the Prime Minister's speech is received, as I personally know, with a great shout of joy from one end of the world to the other where your Empire exists. The Noble Lord the Member for Portsmouth (Lord Charles Beresford) who is such a distinguished countryman of ours, and an ornament to the Navy, has travelled the world, and he will not deny what I say as to the position of Irishmen abroad. Not only all over the Empire was the Prime Minister's recognition of Irish nationality and his offer of reconciliation and the hand of friendship, received with joy, but perhaps what some Members will consider of greater importance, is the fact that it was received with joy and universal joy from one end of the United States to the other.

In satisfying the demand of Ireland by this Bill you are satisfying the millions of the subjects of the King wherever your flag flies and you are also satisfying millions of the subjects of the United States of America. I apologise for having spoken at such length, but before I conclude may I say a few words in response, I will not say to the bitter challenge, but certainly to the direct challenge, in regard to Ulster, made by the hon. Member whose family is so associated with the industries of Ireland? He said that the people of Ulster would never consent to a rearrangement of the government of Ireland. Will hon. Members on both sides of the House at any rate give me the credit for being sincere in what I am about to say? For seven years of my life? represented a constituency in the very heart of the province of Ulster, where Protestants and Catholics among the electors were almost equally divided—a constituency which had for its centre the famous town of Enniskillen. As Member for that district for seven years, I venture to say I gained knowledge and insight into what may be called the Ulster question, which is, I make bold to say, equal to the knowledge of any man in this House or outside it. I am not going to claim for myself any unnatural immunity from all prejudice. I daresay we all more or less have prejudices, but I formed my opinion of Ulster during my years there, and I will tell the House what it is. I do not underrate for a single moment the strength of the position of certain of our countrymen in Ulster. I do not deny in fact I should be a fool to do so—for a moment that if their rights, privileges, and religious susceptibilties were even for one moment interfered with or infringed they would resist to the bitter end. I am certain they would. As far as that goes, I do not believe that there is any bluster or bluff about the Ulster situation, but I honestly feel in my own heart equally sure that the whole tendency and nature of these northern fellow-countrymen of ours would prevent them, from any sentiment or prejudice, plunging their country into anything approaching a state of civil war, turmoil, or bloodshed unless, indeed, there was some good reason for it. Will there ever be reason for it? [An HON. MEMBER: "Never."] In this House after all these years, listening to hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway, I sometimes feel that it is the saddest thing in life that north, south, east, and west we do not seem to come together more quickly than we do and I do not know why it is. Do hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, even the most bitter of them from Ulster, imagine and really think that we here, and the people we represent in the south and west of Ireland have a prejudice against them because of their religion? Do they think that we have any ill-feeling against them because their ancestors fought our ancestors years ago, in the days of the Stuarts? Do they think we hate them on that account? If they do they have never made a greater mistake. We may be divided in religion and by political prejudice, but there is something that cannot be taken away from us north, south, east and west in Ireland, and that is the bond of a common country which in spite of all our differences, we must all love and admire.

Let me put it this way. If I were in a foreign land to-morrow and in difficulty and trouble, and if I sought for assistance and for a helping hand, and I found any of my countrymen from the north near by me, whether Protestants or Unionists, I would appeal to them in the name of a common country and in the name of Ireland, and I believe I should get that help. There is far too much misrepresentation and prejudice with regard to the Ulster question. We have had protests at other periods of our country's history when the Church was disestablished, and when the Catholics were emancipated and the Ulster men got over their bitter protests of those periods. I believe that in an Irish Parliament, which would enable us all to sit and work together, the old prejudices would be worn down, and gradually Ireland would become a united country, with Catholic and Protestant working together for a common end. At any rate, I say for myself here to-night—and I am entitled to say it as one of the oldest Members of this Assembly—that as far as I am concerned I am like many of my comrades: a Catholic in religion, a Catholic to my finger tips; I am by blood and conviction an Irish Nationalist to the core. The first name I bear is a name which I feel honoured in bearing, the name of an ancestor of mine who was executed as a rebel in that part of Ireland from which I came in the great Insurrection of '98; and, you can believe me if you like, but, Catholic and Nationalist as I am, tomorrow morning I would fight with all the strength of my arm and all the fervour of my soul to prevent the poorest Protestant in Ireland being subjected even to a slight and momentary insult because of his religion. These Gentlemen say they will only get what a nominated Senate can give them by way of representation.

They say an Irish Parliament will change the constituencies after three years, and even that the representation of Ulster will be cut down. We expect no such thing. What do I and what do we all expect under an Irish Parliament? We expect that party ties as they now exist will be entirely and absolutely destroyed. When the King opens in Dublin an Irish Parliament, the Members of the Irish Party will be dispersed never to be brought together again. There will be different interests and different claims. There will be no Protestant party of the Irish Parliament, and no Catholic party. No, the parties will arrange themselves according to the need of the country, and there will be men of all religions in all parties. My own belief and firm conviction—and it is that of those who are far wiser and who know far better than myself—is that before the Irish Parliament has been in existence five years, these Gentlemen from Ulster will occupy positions of the most extraordinary influence. Events might conceivably so shape themselves in Ireland as to give the party from Ulster perhaps a preponderating position in the Irish Parliament. If that should happen, what would I and men like me say? As far as I am concerned, I say unhesitatingly I would rather live in Ireland under a Parliament dominated by Ulster than live in Ireland governed by this Parliament or any other Parliament in the world. I can only say, in conclusion, that a great work has been begun. There is the possibility of ending this old quarrel upon terms of equality and honour. The Prime Minister is not here now—I wish he were. I want his colleagues to tell him that the speech he made, and particularly those few words he used recognising Irish nationality, have created a great and profound impression of gratitude and of joy throughout the whole of the wide Irish world. I say do not allow any ancient prejudice, do not allow any reluctance to give up what a minority may have had in days of ascendency gone by—do not allow any unworthy fear of your fellow countrymen, because they are Irishmen by nationality and Catholic by religion, to interfere with this great work of settlement. Do not disappoint the Irish people. Do this thing and, when you have done it, it will be the happiest day for Ireland and the best day that England and the British Empire have ever seen.

One of the greatest surprises of this Debate has been the speech delivered by the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, who so greatly approves the Empire if only it will grant Home Rule. It is very difficult to reconcile his speech with his previous utterances. No doubt the hon. Gentleman is sincere, but it is difficult to reconcile what he has just said with what he said in another debate reported in an Irish newspaper:— after years of advertising that they will never be satisfied with anything but a free and independent nation. This Bill offers to these people a Legislature in leading strings. It offers to them a Senate autonomously impotent; it offers them a Treasury filled with men from this side of the water without a single tax gatherer they can call their own; it offers them power to borrow without a single security to borrow upon; it offers them a Lord Lieutenant who has to look for his orders with one eye on the Irish Cabinet and the other eye fixed on the British Privy Council. This is the Bill which is to be accepted in final settlement of the claims of Ireland as a nation. This is the Bill which the hon. Member for Longford the other day said was going to keep the Irish people at home and to turn a nation of four millions into one of twenty-five millions.

It is going to do nothing of the sort. It is a Bill which, if it passes—and I doubt that it will—will prove to be nothing but a glorified Devolution Bill crammed with conditions and reservation which connote an unpoverished nation—not a chartered nation at all. It is a pat on the back for a poor relation. Talk of Ulster bluff; there never was bluff like that of the hon. Members and their predecessors who have for half a century past said they would never rest till they got independence given to their nation, and now at the first blush are accepting;, as final, a Bill which reserves to an alien country every power and every privilege which hitherto has been considered the possession of the humblest nation in the world. I believe that the hon. Member for Waterford is a devoted and convinced Nationalist. I wonder why and how he can accept as a final settlement this Bill, which does not greatly differ in essentials from the Bill of 1886, which Mr. Parnell said he would accept pro tanto, or from the Bill of 1893, which the hon. Member himself said he could only accept as provisional. I have no doubt that we can have an answer, before this Debate closes, as to what is the great difference in essentials which makes the hon. Member accept this Bill, whereas the other two were only conditionally accepted. In my own view he will never be allowed to accept it by that Convention to which he is going to submit it next week. If he is allowed to accept it at all, it will only be as a latchkey to the door of independence, or complete separation from the United Kingdom and from the Empire.

The hon. Member for Waterford was very eloquent on Thursday last in refuting the charge that he and his Friends were separatists. He said that there was in Ireland a small band of separatists certainly, but that they were a small and diminishing band. But if the hon. Member has been miscalled and misjudged, let me say that, in my opinion, he has only himself and his colleagues to thank. Last year he criticised me not in an unfriendly spirit, for quoting a number of his past utterances upon this subject. They may have been very dull to him, but they were of great importance to us. I must be allowed to recall just one or two of those utterances. He will then have an opportunity of recanting them, if he so chooses, without the slightest loss of any power or prestige to himself. I need not, perhaps, go so far as to quote several of his utterances; I will quote one passage which is significant. It was made in a Debate when I was sitting in this House in 1898, when the County Councils Bill for Ireland was going through. The hon. Member for Waterford and the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) were not quite such good friends as they are now. I take from "Hansard" of that year a very short passage from the Debate on an Amendment to the Address, when the hon. Member for East Mayo, addressing the hon. Member for Waterford who was sitting behind him, said:— America, also gave vent to similar opinions. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I could quote the hon. Member. My recollection is perhaps better than his own. I think these were frank opinions candidly expressed, and I hope, if I held those opinions, I should express them with equal candour, but until those hon. Members will confess—and I see no reason why they should not if it suits them—that they have changed their mind, they must be content to rest suspect under the charge of being separatists and also of accepting the Bill only as a makeshift until the larger policy, as it is called, can be forced upon the Parliament of Great Britain. Let English and Scottish Radicals be perfectly sure that you cannot call this Bill in any shape or sense final. "Final" is a word constantly used, and it makes a great impression on the Radical mind. Mr. Gladstone said and thought that his Land Bill of 1870 was going to be final, yet he introduced another in 1881, and he said that was to be final. The Home Rule Bill of 1886 was to the final, and, in its early stages, Mr. Parnell accepted it as such, though in a later stage he declined to go quite so far. Similarly the 1893 Bill, Mr. Gladstone also hoped would be final. But if it be true that no man can set a limit to the march of a nation, if it be true that no man can bind the aspirations of his successor, this word "finality" is only to be found in the rhetoric of fools, and we may be assured that this Bill is only a stepping-stone to independence, for we remember Sir George Trevelyan saying there is no halfway house between the Union and Separation.

But before this measure of independence is brought in—and it may not be a long interval, assuming we have a Government which is so sensitive to pressure in the Divison Lobby—it is interesting to note the safeguards for the protection of the loyalist minority with which this Bill is supposed to bristle. There is, of course, the nominated Senate. I need not press upon the attention of the House the frankly undemocratic character of the nominated Senate nor the hideous failure that the nominated Senate has been in Canada and New Zealand; but for my own part I can see no particular safeguard for the Unionist minority in a Senate nominated in the first place by a Home Rule Government over here and the places filled up later on by an Irish Executive, of which the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. John Redmond) or some man more extreme than himself, if he can be found, will certainly be the head. I remember that with regard to the ill-fated Devolution Bill of 1908 the hon. Member for Waterford said he disliked the nominated Second Chamber very much indeed, and that he would only accept it as a concession to the Ulster Members. I think he can get rid of these scruples now, because I hope that neither the Ulster Members nor anybody in this quarter of the House will accept the Senate, whether nominated or unnominated. The hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor), who spoke at a dinner on Saturday night, anticipated some trouble in regard to this matter, for he said that he and his friends were open to a deal upon it. I do not know who they were going to deal with. They certainly will not deal with anybody in the Unionist quarter of the House in regard to that matter. [An HON. MEMBER: "Are you sure?"] I do feel perfectly sure, and I advise the hon. Member and his Nationalist colleagues to take this Senate as the reward of their dog-like fidelity in following the Government into the Lobby in the last few years, which culminated in the hon. Member for the Scotland Division and three or four of his Friends helping in the Committee Room upstairs to destroy the Catholic schools in the single-school areas of this country. I agree for once in my life with the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) when he said at Salford that he attached no importance whatever to safeguards in a Bill of this kind. I attach far more importance to a quotation, which I think he will recognise, in which he said that in the day when Home Rule came they would remember who were their friends and who had been their enemies, and they would mete out punishment to the one and reward to the other. I attach more importance than to all the paper safeguards, to the famous menace uttered by the hon. Member for Waterford to the effect that if there should be a stubborn minority which would not bow the knee to Home Rule, that they would have to be overborne by a strong hand. One ounce of practice in the matter of safeguards is worth a ton of theory. We remember what soft and smooth things were prophesied for the loyal minority when the county councils were granted to the Irish people. We know now that it is very difficult outside of Ulster to get a loyalist member on any of those councils. We know now from the hon. and learned Member for Waterford himself that those councils are nothing but a network of Nationalist organisation throughout the land. He said so in 1902. Reference has already been made to the new university which we were perfectly sure was going to be a Roman Catholic enclave. We now know that it has become a Roman Catholic annex to the Priests' College at Maynooth.

I do not say it has been changed at all. I do say that, whereas smooth things were prophesied for that university before Cardinal Logue made the speech which I have in my mind at present there was apparently a chance of its being given to teaching other than of a purely denominational character.

I would say that it is nothing but an annex of Maynooth. Without detailing all these illusory safeguards, I think we may ask the Government to explain to us how they propose by any Act of this Parliament to enforce the observance of these safeguards. If they cannot be enforced they are sheer insults to those to whom they are offered. If the Nationalist Parliament, after it is called into existence, agitate, as it will agitate, for one after another of these limitations to be repealed, and if this Parliament decline to be bound by any adverse order of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, will the Government state clearly what steps are in its own mind adequate short of using armed force and short of repealing this Act to enforce the supremacy of the Imperial Parliament? It is important that we should have an answer to this question by a responsible Minister of His Majesty's Government, for until the question is answered we cannot expect the minority in Ireland to believe in the adequacy of these safeguards. Until this question is answered we think that they are justified in believing that your vaunted supremacy will rest not on the force of law, but on the crude and elementary law of force.

I may be allowed to turn for a few minutes to say a word on this Bill. We must face possibilities, however disagreeable they may be. Supposing it should be necessary that Great Britain should have to resort to force in order to protect the loyal minority in Ulster or in any part of Ireland, we could only resort to force by the instruction of the Imperial Parliament; but in this Imperial Parliament you are to keep forty-two Irish Members, and forty-two are quite enough, and will be quite enough to control the whole fate of a Government in the day when we return to a two-figure majority, just as the present Irish contingent hold the fate of this three-figure majority in the hollow of their hands. On that day, when the Government comes forward with the proposal to use armed force in Ireland in order to enforce the safeguards, you cannot expect from such an Irish contingent any support at all. You will not derive any assistance either from those British representatives who are returned to this Parliament by the votes of Irishmen cast in British constituencies. The downfall of the Government making such a proposal would certainly be sudden and complete, and the oppression of the minority or the continuance of the offending law would be persisted in without let or hindrance, and so with all our legislation we should be unable to form an independent judgment upon that legislation either of our own affairs or Irish affairs of the highest importance. It seems to me that by the retention of these forty-two Members from Ireland in the Imperial House you are not only going to pay a war indemnity of many millions a year to a small island which has beaten this Government to its knees, but you are also inviting over here a band of plenipotentiaries to witness and perpetuate your humiliation. The Government claim that they have a mandate for Home Rule. I do not believe that they have that mandate, or that the electors have ever given their sanction to a proposal so preposterous. Knowing hon. Members below the Gangway, I do not think they will be content with a Bill which in their country would give them so much paraphernalia and so little real power. But the measure has now passed out of the keeping of His Majesty's Government, and has to be submitted in whispered humbleness to a Convention by the trustees of the United Kingdom and of the British Empire. If that Bill is approved in Dublin next week then it will be allowed to pass, but only as an earnest of greater things to come. If it is rejected it will share the fate of its elder brother, the Devolution Bill of 1910. The people not to be consulted, are the British electors and British capitalists, who are providing the sinews of war to protect the whole of Ireland from invasion or starvation in time of stress or save them from bankruptcy in time of necessity. In the brave days His Majesty's Government would have consulted the electors, as Mr. Gladstone did, but in these days the arbitrament of the ballot-box is what you fear. You have smashed the Constitution to avoid the judgment of the people; and now behind the backs of the people you are going to set up what Lord Rosebery calls "the curse of dual government" at the heart of the Empire. The Bill, in my opinion, disgraces Ireland. It is a Bill which foreshadows federalism, for which there has never been any mandate on the part of the people of this country—federalism which would reduce Ireland to the state of Rhode Island; a Bill which would be disastrous to the best chances of Irish prosperity, a Bill which would be impossible for the good relations between the Parliament of Great Britain and Ireland, and a Bill which does nothing to prevent the coercion of the loyal minority. For these reasons I shall give my vote at this and every stage against the Bill.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned "—[ Mr. Walter Long ]—put, and agreed to.

Debate to be resumed to-morrow (Tuesday).

Light Railways Bill

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [10th April], "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Question again proposed. Debate resumed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Bill

Read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Adjourned at Two minutes after Eleven o'clock.