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Commons Chamber

Volume 37: debated on Wednesday 17 April 1912

House of Commons

Wednesday, April 17, 1912

Private Business

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,

Read the third time, and passed.

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,

Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill,

Read a second time, and committed.

Taff Vale Railway Bill,

Reported with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

National Gallery (Ireland)

Copy presented of Report of the Director of the National Gallery of Ireland to the Board of Governors and Guardians for the year, 1911 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Land Registry

Account presented of Receipts and Payments in respect of the Land Registry for the year ended 31st March, 1912 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 94.]

Shop Hours Act, 1904

Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the county of Carnarvon, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, fixing the Hours of Closing of certain classes of Shops within the urban district of Llandudno [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

National Health Insurance Commission (Joint Committee) (Regulatons)

Copy presented of Regulations of the Joint Committee, dated 17th April, 1912, as to the constitution of an Unregistered Society [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 95.]

Post Office (Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post)

Copy presented of the Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post Amendment (No. 48) Warrant, 1912, dated 29th March, 1912 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Petitions

presented two Petitions—one from the Corporation of the City of Glasgow, asking that the Temperance (Scotland) Bill should be passed without delay; the other from the Parish Council of the City of Glasgow, representing 1,000,000 people, including all parties, praying that there may be introduced by the Government and passed into law a Bill empowering local rating authorities to impose and levy a tax for local purposes upon the value of the land of the United Kingdom as ascertained under the Finance Act, 1909–10.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Foreign Warships (British Building)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the building of warships for foreign Governments by private shipbuilding concerns in this country has formed the subject of recent communications with any foreign Power; and, if so, whether any information can be given to the House on this matter?

So far as the Admiralty is aware, the reply is in the negative; but the question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

asked whether private shipbuilding concerns have been informed that, in the event of a naval war arising in which this country was a combatant, the Government might commandeer any war vessels in process of construction in private yards for foreign Powers; and whether any foreign Government has addressed inquiries or communications to the British Government in this connection?

No such communication has been made. The second part of the question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great number of assertions are being publicly made bearing upon this subject, and that it is considered to be an important question in connection with our naval policy?

I cannot prevent a great many assertions being made. I can only give information when I am asked to do so.

Assistant Naval Store Officers

asked whether any conclusion has been come to as a result of the promised consideration by the Lords of the Admiralty of the position of assistant naval store officers?

The question is still under consideration, but, as I stated in the reply I gave to the hon. Member on the 7th December last, more than one Department is concerned, and the decision is not entirely in our hands.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer he gave me last year was a repetition of that given me two years ago, and is there any change of this period of rumination producing anything at all?

I do not think the terms of the replies are identical. I know the hon. Gentleman has questioned me upon this matter before, and I will make representations in the proper quarter.

Royal Navy

Mediterranean Fleet

asked how many British battleships have been withdrawn from the Mediterranean since 1903, and how many have been completed since that year for the French, Italian, and Austrian navies, respectively?

The number of British battleships in the Mediterranean in 1903 varied from fourteen to twelve; there are at present six belonging to that station. The answer to the second part of the question is: France (including "Liberté"), 12; Italy, 5; Austria-Hungary, 6.

Does the right hon. Gentleman consider the distribution of the Fleet satisfactory?

Yes, when the new movements have taken place the Admiralty consider the distribution of the Fleet will be extremely satisfactory.

"Dreadnought" Floating Docks

asked what was the contract date for the completion of the "Dreadnought" floating docks provided for in the 1909–10 Estimates; and what is now the expected date of completion?

The contract date for the completion of the two large floating docks provided in the 1909–10 Navy Estimate is 30th September, 1911. It is now expected that the Medway dock will be completed by June next, and the Portsmouth dock by July next.

Presbyterian Ministers

asked whether there are any Presbyterian ministers on the official staff of the Navy; and, if so, how many?

Presumably the hon. Member's question refers to ministers in receipt of annual allowances payable from naval funds. The number of Presbyterian ministers coming within this category is four.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me how many other sects are represented on the official staff of the Navy?

No, not without notice. There are four Presbyterians who get a fixed annual allowance, but there are in addition others who get capitation payment for services rendered.

Have the sailors who are not Presbyterians an opportunity of seeing their own ministers?

I have said that in addition to the four there are others who get capitation payment for services rendered. If my hon. Friend desires further details he had better put a question on the Paper.

Destruction of Fishermen's Nets and Gear

asked whether compensation has yet been made to those fishermen whose nets and gear were destroyed by His Majesty's torpedo-boat destroyers in clear weather on the morning of 20th February last?

The grant of compensation has been approved, and steps are being taken for payment of the sums awarded.

Arising out of that answer, may I ask whether consideration has been taken for the time and opportunities lost while these men have been bereft of their means of living?

No, but the award is within a few pounds of the claim presented. I do not know whether the claim included that, but we have dealt pretty fairly with the claim.

I had nothing before me but the claim submitted, and I say our award was very nearly up to the claim.

Labour Exchanges

asked what special provision, if any, is it proposed to make at the local Labour Exchanges to find work for the number of men now under notice of discharge and for further discharges from the engineer departments in His Majesty's dockyards?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. Every endeavour will be made to facilitate the finding of employment through the Labour Exchanges, by the men referred to, and full advantage will be taken of the close connection existing among various Exchanges in different parts of the country.

Do I gather from his reply that the right hon. Gentleman is in accord with what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty told me, that these Labour Exchanges were specially extended to the dockyards in order that these men might find employment elsewhere?

I am afraid I am not aware what was exactly said by my right hon. Friend, and I do not know what conclusion the hon. Gentleman drew from that reply. As far as we are concerned, the gist of my reply is that we are in full accord and contact with the Departments concerned, and we do our best to find employment and places for these men.

Questions

British Indians in the Transvaal

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has used his influence with the South African Government to secure a mitigation of the laws affecting British-Indians in the Transvaal?

I am in frequent correspondence with the Union Government about Indian matters. The Immigration Bill now before the Union Parliament will, I hope, do something to remove the sense of grievance.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in view of the sense of grievance existing among Indians under his own exclusive ordinance in the Straits Settlement, he does not think this is a case of Satan rebuking sin?

Straits Settlements (Civil Service List)

asked whether the change in the Regulations made by the Colonial Office, whereby all British subjects who are not of pure European descent on both sides are excluded from the Civil and Police Services of the Straits Settlements, was made without the knowledge of the natives of that Colony; that no public announcement of the change was made beyond its being printed in the Straits Settlements Civil Service List, which has practically no circulation outside of Government offices and of which there is not a copy in the House of Commons Library; and that the natives of the Colony remained in ignorance of the change until attention was called to it in this House; and what steps were taken by the Colonial Office before making this change to ascertain the views of the natives of the Colony on the matter?

As regards the first and fourth part of this question I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to his question (No. 18) on the 7th of March. It was obviously impossible to ascertain the individual views of the mass of the population. So far as I am aware, the change in the Regulations was not publicly announced except by publication in Civil Service List, which is on sale in the Colony, but the information was, of course, available for anybody who took the trouble to apply for and read a copy of the Regulations. If the natives of the Colony remained in ignorance of the change until attention was called to it in this House, it is probable that nobody took sufficient interest in the matter to ask for a copy of the Regulations.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give me a reply to the last part of the question—what steps were taken by the Colonial Office before making this change to ascertain the views of the natives of the Colony on this question?

If my hon. Friend wants to know the details, he had better give notice, as it will be necessary to inquire of the Colony itself.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not call the putting of the question down on the Paper notice?

Australian Preferential Tariffs

asked whether any and, if any, what preferential tariff advantages have been recently granted by the Australian Government to this country?

Numerous changes were recently made in the Australian general and preferential tariffs, which are set forth in detail in a special supplement to the "Board of Trade Journal," dated 15th February last.

Straits Settlements and Malay Straits (Public Holidays)

asked the Secretary for the Colonies if he will give a list, of the public holidays for the current year in the Straits Settlements and the Federated Malay States, indicating whether special provision has been made for the national or religious festivals of Christians, Chinese, Mahomedans, and Hindus?

My hon. Friend will find particulars as to public holidays in the Straits Settlements in Ordinances No. IX. of 1879, XXVI. of 1902, and XXXI. Of 1910, copies of which are in the Library. The list of holidays for the Federated Malay States for 1912 is given in the Federal Gazette for the 24th November, 1911, a copy of which has now been placed in the Library for the use of my hon. Friend.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether among these holidays there are any which provide for the religious festivals of the Hindus?

Yes, there are, I think. After my hon. Friend has consulted the papers I have indicated we had better have a further conversation on it.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it is his place or mine to supply information with regard to the affairs of the Colonial Office?

I think, in view of the hon. Member's valuable knowledge on this matter, we had better do it jointly.

Land Taxes

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that a demand for 4s. Undeveloped Land Duty has been served upon Mr. Robert Brundle, an old age pensioner, at Ipswich, in respect of ten rods of land owned by him in the borough; and whether he will satisfy himself whether Mr. Brundle has sufficient means to make this payment before authorising any proceedings to recover it from him?

I am informed by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue that it is not their practice to press for payment of Undeveloped Land Duty from old age pensioners. In these circumstances, no further proceedings will be taken against Mr. Robert Brundle for recovery of the duty payable by him.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of working men are called upon to pay this duty because they have invested their savings in land rather than in some other form of security?

asked whether, if the valuers in ascertaining the full site value of an occupation have regard to the presence of buildings on adjoining occupations, some part of such site value is attributable to the presence of those buildings; and whether full site value so ascertained will in practically every valuation under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, include value not wholly attributable to the site but in part to the presence of buildings?

The presence of buildings upon lands adjoining the unit of valuation is no doubt one of a number of external influences which may affect the value of the unit. Full site value may therefore include value due to the presence of buildings on adjoining sites, though it assumes the site under valuation to be itself divested of buildings.

Licensed Property (Provisional Valuation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will not allow provisional valuations of licensed property to stand over until the question as to the methods of arriving at the total value in such cases has been decided by the High Court; and will he give instructions that, where these provisional valuations have been served, the sixty days allowed by the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, in which to object to these valuations shall not be deemed to run until a decision in the case of Earl Fitzwilliam v. The Commissioners of Inland Revenue has been given by the High Court?

The point at issue in the case to which the hon. Member refers affects the total value and not the site value of licensed property. The total value shown in a provisional valuation has no direct fiscal significance, and in these circumstances I do not think it necessary to give such instructions as the hon. Member suggests.

If the Referee's decision is that a revaluation is necessary, will the right hon. Gentleman indemnify the owners the costs?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the provisions of this valuation are so complicated and difficult that it is really impossible for the owners of small property, especially if they are small people, to understand their position? Will he not consider the desirability of deferring further valuations of this class of property until the points before the Committtee are settled?

At present the pressure has been all the other way so far as licensed property is concerned. This is the first time it has been suggested that the valuation should be deferred.

Consumption of Spirits (1912–13)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer by what process he arrived at the conclusion that during the financial year 1912–13 there will be an increase of 1.5 in the consumption of spirits?

My conclusion that during the financial year there will be an increase in the consumption of spirits is based on examination of the spirit clearances during recent years.

I was anxious to know how the right hon. Gentleman arrived at the decimal.

Royal Dockyards (Hired Labour)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is proposed to circulate any leaflet showing the position of hired men employed in His Majety's dockyards under the National Insurance Act; and, if not, whether he will consider the advisability of doing so in order that the men may have the necessary information before them in an official manner and at an early date?

The Interdepartmental Committee which is considering the application of Part I of the Act to Government employés will produce its Report at the earliest possible moment, and steps will then be taken to make it known at once to all the persons affected.

Excise Revenue

asked how much revenue was received during the year ended 31st March, 1912, in respect of beer, spirits, licences, etc., respectively; and how many gallons of home-made and foreign spirits were, respectively, duty-paid for home consumption?

The amounts of revenue received in respect of beer, spirits, and licences during the year ended 31st March, 1912, were as follows:—

Johne's Disease

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will state who are the members of the scientific inquiry who are working on behalf of the Board to inquire into the cause of Johne's disease; and whether they could issue a leaflet describing the disease now that they are asking for the disease to be notified to the Board, as so little is known about the disease?

In reply to the first part of the question I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on this subject on the 26th February last. I understand the hon. Member to refer, in the second part of the question, to inquiries addressed by the Board to their agricultural correspondents and to agricultural societies as to the prevalence and distribution of the disease. There is no obligation on owners of stock to report outbreaks of the disease. I will consider the possibility of issuing a leaflet on the subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that correspondents have great difficulty in collecting information because the disease is unknown to them?

They can get the information they require from the Board's officers. They have only to ask for it.

Bee Disease

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he is aware that a great part of bee disease is caused, by vagrant swarms which are out of control and thus cause great loss to beekeepers; and whether he can see his way to give power to the authorities to deal adequately with these swarms?

The statement contained in the first part of the question is not infrequently made, but I have no direct evidence to show that disease has actually been conveyed or spread by this-means. The Bill will authorise all reasonable and practicable measures for the prevention and control of bee disease.

Can the right horn Gentleman say when the Bill will come-out. It has been in hand some years.

I have had the matter in hand some weeks only. It will be out shortly.

The subject has been pressing for years, and I want to know when the Bill will be out? We want to-be informed if it will be ready shortly.

National Insurance Act

Sanatoria

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that the National Insurance Act comes into operation on 15th July, from which date every insured person who may suffer from consumption is entitled to sanatorium treatmenet, whether any, and what, provisions-are being made to give effect to this part of the Act; whether, pending an arrangement being arrived at with the doctors, a special authority certifying sanatorium patients and treating them will be created;: and whether, in the event of sufficient beds not being available, what cause he proposes to take with regard to the contributions from insured persons in respect of sanatorium treatment.

Sanatorium benefit will commence from the 15th of July, but it will be impossible to give all patients requiring treatment in sanatoria such treatment until sufficient sanatoria have been provided. In the event of local Insurance-Committees not being constituted by that date, other means will be provided for selecting those who will be recommended for treatment in sanatoria. Any money necessarily unexpended owing to insufficiency of accommodation at the commencement of the working of the Act will be available for later benefit; and the whole subject is being considered by the Committee on Tuberculosis which will, I understand, report very shortly.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what steps are being taken to secure the extra sanatoria necessary?

The whole matter is under the consideration of the Local Government Board, and inquiry is being made as to how far private accommodation is available.

Is it not one of the matters definitely laid down in the Act? Can he say whether, in the event of local Insurance Committees not being appointed by the 15th July he proposes to amend the Act, or will the Act be superseded by an Order of his Department?

Will the hon. Gentleman say how many years it will take to build the necessary sanatoria for consumptives?

Constitution of Committees

asked whether the Insurance Committees will be constituted before the 15th July?

I am not at present in a position to make any definite statement as to the date of the constitution of local Insurance Committees. If they are not constituted by the 15th of July, special arrangements will be made for the administration of sanatorium benefit, which is the only benefit coming into operation before January next.

Will the hon. Gentleman take care not to exclude the possibility of county boroughs and boroughs feeing able to form their own separate committees?

When will the hon. Gentleman be able to inform the various county councils what the number of members to be appointed by them will be?

I cannot give any definite answer. The committees cannot be constituted, except provisionally, until societies have been approved, as they must include members of approved societies. Up to the present no societies have been officially approved.

Unregistered Friendly Societies and Village Clubs

asked whether, in view of the fact that under the National Insurance Act unregistered friendly societies and village clubs are on the same footing as registered societies and equally entitled to become approved societies, that many of the best managed and most prosperous of these societies are now contemplating dissolution, and that there is a general desire among agriculturists to include such societies in county associations and federations, but that there is no official record of their number, description, or whereabouts, the Commissioners will take steps to meet the increasing demand for information about such societies on the part of county organising committees by obtaining a return of all such societies by means of circulars addressed to school attendance officers or ministers of religion in every parish throughout the country?

I am aware of the difficulty referred to by the hon. Member, and the Commission are now taking steps to secure the information required by writing to ministers of religion and others who are likely to be able to afford it.

How is it proposed to disseminate this information, where required, amongst these organisations of small societies in the counties?

I think that is a matter for further consideration, especially in connection with those members of the Advisory Committee who especially represent small societies.

Official Leaflets

asked what steps are being taken with regard to the publication and distribution of the official leaflets explanatory of Part I. of the National Insurance Act; and whether Members of Parliament desiring to distribute them will be furnished with supplies for the purpose on application?

The publication of these leaflets has been advertised, and parcels of them are supplied on application to trade unions, friendly societies, and other bodies or persons who will undertake their distribution. Specimen leaflets have been sent to all Members of Parliament with the notification that they will receive supplies for distribution if they so desire. Circulars are also being sent with offers to supply leaflets to ministers of religion and others in rural districts who will undertake to distribute them amongst those who will be insured persons; and to Labour Exchanges and public libraries in towns.

Card Stamps

asked whether samples of the stamps for use on cards of insured persons under the National Insurance Act can be exhibited in the Tea Room; whether the stamps when issued will be on sale at all post offices; and whether they will be sold in sheet form and also in book form, as postage stamps are now sold in books?

Samples of the stamps will in due course be exhibited in the Tea Room. The arrangements for their sale at Post Offices are proceeding, and it is intended to make the denominations in common demand very widely accessible. The stamps will be sold in sheet form and I will consider whether to arrange for their sale in book form as well.

Am I to take that reply to mean that they will not be on sale at all Post Offices, but only at certain important Post Offices?

The arrangements are not yet completed. We desire to have them on sale wherever they may be needed.

Scottish Commission

asked how many permanent posts there are under the provisions of the National Insurance Act for Scotland with a salary under £200 per annum, how many between £200 and £300, and how many over £300, And how many of each, respectively, are filled by gentlemen who were actually in the Civil Service at the time of appointment?

Seventeen persons have been appointed to posts with salaries under £200 a year: eleven of these were in the Civil Service at the time of their appointment. One person, who was a Civil servant, has been appointed to a post with a salary between £200 and £300. Six persons have been appointed to positions with salaries of £300 and over; three of these were Civil servants at the time of their appointment.

Which of these three were members of Civil Service at the time of appointment?

I cannot give the names without notice. I shall be glad to do so if the Noble Lord will give me notice.

asked how many nominations were offered, respectively, to the various typing schools in Edinburgh for the recent examination for posts under the National Insurance Commissioners.

Applications were requested from seven schools and some offices in Edinburgh, one, two, or more nominations being requested in each case. In addition to this, application papers were given to applicants who applied at the Commission who were not asked what school they had attended. The examination was held by the Civil Service Commissioners, and the six candidates who gained the highest marks were appointed.

How is it that one school has got four vacancies while one or two were only given to other schools?

I said one, two, or more. I suppose that if the ex-members of one school got four vacancies, of which I have no knowledge, I suppose it was because they were the four best.

Questions

Kingstown Harbour By-Laws

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he has authorised a notice to be posted at Kingstown Harbour, county Dublin, headed by-laws, and stated to be made by the Commissioner of Kingstown Harbour the 3rd day of January, 1911, to the effect that no vessel should remain afloat in any part of the harbour without being fitted out except by permision of the harbour master, which permission should be given for small yachts for short periods only and in such place as might be pointed out by the harbour master, on the written undertaking of the owner in the form prescribed?

No, Sir. The bylaw mentioned has been made by the Commissioners under the 6 and 7 Wm. IV., c. 117 and Amending Acts, and duly posted at the harbour. Treasury authority is not required for the making of such by-laws.

Development Commission

Aid to Fishermen

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has now obtained legal opinion as to whether State aid to fishermen is within the scope of the Development Act?

I hope shortly to receive legal opinion on certain questions which have arisen in connection with the possibility of Grants being given from the Development Fund for the provision of motor boats for fishermen.

Does the expression "legal opinion," which is the hon. Gentleman's own phrase, mean the Law Officers of the Crown; and has he received any communication from the Scottish Office, who have expressed an opinion upon this point?

I cannot express any opinion as to the Scottish Office. Legal opinion is, of course, the highest legal opinion possible.

Mr. A. D. Hall

asked in what capacity Mr. A. D. Hall will act in connection with the work of the Development Commission after relinquishing his post as director of the Rothamsted Experimental Station in September next; and what remuneration it is proposed to give him for his whole-time services in lieu of that which he is sacrificing by acceptance of this new office?

Mr. Hall will receive a salary of £1,500 per annum as a member of the Development Commission on relinquishing his post as director of the Rothamsted Experimental Station.

Can the hon. Gentleman say who is to be his successor in this very important national work?

Scottish Harbour Grants

asked the result of the applications for harbour grants for St. Andrews, Anstruther, and Pittenweem to the Development Commissioners, which have now been pending for sixteen months?

The St. Andrews Harbour Trustees have been informed that the Development Commission are unable to recommend an advance in aid of the improvement of St. Andrews Harbour. The applications for grants in aid of the other two harbours are still under consideration.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that they have been under consideration for eighteen months?

The hon. Gentleman will recognise that the Treasury have no control over the Development Commissioners. I simply answer for them in this House.

No. It was specially provided in the Act that there should be no Parliamentary control over them.

Questions

Quarry Inspectors

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the forthcoming examination of candidates for the post of inspectors of quarries will be conducted by a gentleman having a practical knowledge of slate quarrying?

The examinations for sub-inspectors of quarries are conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners, but I am informed by them that the technical portion of the examination is in the hands of well-qualified experts.

I believe so, but if my hon. Friend will put down a question I will inquire into the precise requirements of the candidates.

In inspectorships of this description, is it not an innovation that inspectors should have some knowledge of the subject?

Employment of Children Act and Shops Act

asked how many inspectors have been appointed by local authorities up to the present date under the Employment of Children Act and the Shops Act?

I have no recent information as to the number of inspectors appointed by the local authorities under the Employment of Children Act and the Shops Act. I shall be willing to obtain a return from the local authorities if my hon. Friend desires it, but as it will become obligatory on all local authorities under the new Shops Act, which comes into force on 1st May, to appoint inspectors for the purpose of enforcing the Act, I think it would be better to wait until later in the year before calling for the return.

asked whether provision has been made in the Estimates for a Grant-in-Aid to local authorities in respect of the appointment of inspectors under the Employment of Children Act and the Shops Act?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers which I gave to his question and the question of the Noble Lord the Member for South Nottingham, on this subject in November last, in which I said that the consideration of the question of a Grant-in-Aid for this purpose must stand over until the general question of the financial relations between the State and the local authorities is settled. The Committee which is considering the general question has not yet reported, and no decision has yet been come to in the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will issue an annual report or other periodic statement showing the action taken by local authorities under the Shops Act and the Employment of Children Act?

I shall be glad to consider this suggestion when the Shops Act has been in operation for a year or two, both as regards this Act and the Employ- ment of Children Act. As my hon. Friend is aware, a Bill to amend the latter Act is now before the House.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether in that annual report or statement there will be given a careful account of any interference with the liberty of the working classes under these Acts?

I could not say, but I will inquire if my hon. Friend will put down a question.

London County Council Tramways

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the inconvenience caused to users of the London County Council tramway service, and particularly to those responsible for collecting the fares, as a result of the permission recently given by the police authorities to the council to overcrowd the cars; and whether he will give instructions that this practice shall be immediately, discontinued?

On representations made by the London County Council the Board of Trade, in consequence of the coal strike, made on 8th March, a by-law allowing a certain number of excess passengers on the council's tramcars, with the object of enabling the council to economise in the consumption of coal at the generating station. It was, however, understood that the by-law would be rescinded as soon as the coal strike was over and normal conditions had been resumed. I learn from the council that conditions can not yet be considered as normal, but they propose to put on a number of additional cars on Monday next, and hope to resume the full service with as little delay as possible.

Telephone Service

asked the Postmaster-General if he can say when he will be in a position to authorise the extension of the telephone system to the South County Dublin, so that farmers and others may have the benefit of the system as promised when the system was taken over by the Post Office authorities, and the conditions attached thereto if granted?

An extension of the telephone system in South County Dublin, can be carried out if sufficient support can be obtained. I will have an inquiry made at once to ascertain what support is forthcoming.

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the girl operators in the telephone service who were entitled to an increase of salary as from 1st January last have had the sums they have received as overtime payment since that date deducted from the increment due; and, if so, seeing that this is practically a reduction of the wages of the girls received under the National Telephone Company, the deduction for overtime will be reimbursed?

The National Telephone Company paid double rate to telephonists for Sunday duty as compared with the Post Office practice of paying a rate and a half. The wages and rates under the company were continued pending final classification, and as the appointment of the officers concerned dated back to the 1st January last some adjustments have been necessary. In the large majority of cases, owing to the higher scales of week-day wages paid by the Post Office compared with those paid by the company, the amount of arrears owing to the telephonists since January 1st greatly exceeded the overpayments in respect of overtime. In no case has there been any reduction in the actual wages of telephonists, who all benefit materially either immediately or in prospect.

Post Office Income and Expenditure (Scotland)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he can give the amounts of the income and expenditure of the Post Office and telegraphic departments in Scotland for the year ending the 31st March, 1912?

Post Office (Engineering Branch)

asked the Postmaster-General, whether he has received a protest from the Engineering and Stores Association against the notice that has been issued of the intention to alter the mode of payment of wages to those below the rank of inspector employed in the engineering branch of the Post Office by keeping in hand four days' wages; if he will state the reason for this proposed alteration; and whether he will have the notice withdrawn, or at least postpone the time of its coming into effect, in order to have a reconsideration of the matter and receive the representations of the men concerned, who are strongly opposed to it.

In 1906 a system of payment of the wages of the engineering staff engaged on construction, similar to that now proposed, was introduced and worked satisfactorily. It is intended now to assimilate the practice with regard to the remainder of the minor engineering staff to that which has prevailed with respect to the staff engaged on construction work. A change is rendered necessary by the fact that, as part of the reorganisation following on the telephone transfer, these branches of the engineering staff have been amalgamated and there is no longer a separate construction staff. The alteration is also desirable in order to avoid the necessity of making up time-sheets on the basis of work which has not yet been performed and has to be forecasted and in order to secure a proper check on the payments due. Any temporary hardship due to its introduction will be met by advances. I am not prepared to reconsider the matter.

Industrial Unrest

asked whether, with a view to preventing a recurrence of the recent coal strike and to prevent other strikes of a similar nature, the Government intend to introduce legislation to regulate and control the trade unions or labour combines which organise national strikes to the detriment of the British public?

I can at present add nothing to the answer given by the Prime Minister to the hon. Member for Devizes on this subject on 30th October last. The whole question of industrial unrest and its-causes is receiving the careful consideration of His Majesty's Government.

Is there any truth in the rumours that the Government is preparing a measure to enforce compulsory arbitration?

I am very glad the hon. Member has asked that question. I saw a report in the Press this morning in reference to the special Industrial Council, the imputation being that the Government had come to the conclusion that they will utilise the Industrial Council to a larger extent, especially in the direction of compulsory arbitration. There is no foundation whatever for that statement.

Government Op Ireland Bill

Speaker of Irish House of Commons

asked the Prime Minister whether he would favourably consider an Amendment to the Government of Ireland Bill relieving the Speaker of the Irish House of Commons from membership of the English Board of Trade?

As at present advised, I see no necessity for the Amendment suggested, but the matter will recieve consideration.

Is it proposed to retain the services of the Speaker of the Irish House of Commons as a member of the English Board of Trade?

Ireland's Revenue

asked the Prime Minister if he will cause to be issued to Members a statement showing on what principle Ireland's revenue has been ascertained in relation to Customs, Excise, Income Tax, Death Duties, stamps, and miscellaneous, respectively?

I beg to refer the right hon. Gentleman to the answer given by the present Secretary for Scotland to the hon. Member for North Meath on the 13th of December last, and to the "Remarks" column of House of Commons No. 220 of 1911.

It was a very elaborate explanation of the method by which the Inland Revenue arrive at these figures. I am afraid I could not summarise it.

When will the Report of the Committee on Irish Finance, which the Government promised, be in the hands of hon. Members?

Import Taxation

asked whether, under the Government of Ireland Bill, the Irish Parliament will have power to increase the-amount of import taxation by 10 per cent, on goods imported from Great Britain, whether home-made or re-exported, as-well as on those imported directly from other countries?

I would refer the hon. Member to Clause 15 of the Bill, which has-now been circulated.

Am I to understand that the right hon. Gentleman does not know enough about the Bill?

No, but this is not the time to explain across the floor of the House the complicated Clause in question.

Scottish And Welsh Home Rule

asked whether, if the Government of Ireland Bill is passed, the immediate result will be the introduction of measures of Home Rule-for Scotland and Wales?

I can add nothing to the speech made by the Prime-Minister on the introduction of the Government of Ireland Bill.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the body known as the Young Scots have circularised every member and candidate-stating that no measure of Irish Home Rule will be satisfactory which does not extend, as an immediate result, Home Rule to Scotland, and will he not give them a definite reply in order to put them out of their misery before the Second Reading?

If the Home Rule Bill does not pass into law is it intended to proceed with a measure of Home Rule for Scotland, England, and Wales?

Questions

Suffragists in Prison

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will" reconsider his view as to the necessity of forcible feeding of prisoners?

The forcible feeding of prisoners is a matter of necessary medical treatment carried out in accordance with the law as laid down by the High Court. If the hon. Member can suggest any better means for preserving the life of a prisoner who refuses to take food in the ordinary way, I 6hall be most happy to consider it; but it must be plain to him that it is impossible to allow any prisoner to determine the length of his own sentence by setting him at liberty if he chooses to refuse food for a few days.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman give fuller discretion to the magistrates to discharge prisoners when necessary before they are tortured instead of after?

And will that discretion also apply, to thieves or to any other criminals who are in prison?

We have a careful report of every case from the medical officer as to whether the person is in a suitable state of health, and whenever the medical officer reports that he is not in a suitable state of health the prisoner is discharged at once. That would apply to all -classes of offences.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think these women have already been sufficiently punished by the condemnation of public opinion and by the defeat of the Conciliation Bill, and would he not consider that the time has come to release these prisoners?

There is great divergence of opinion as to the severity with which these women have been punished. I can assure the hon. Member that the owners of the windows, who lost between them some £6,000, which has not been repaid to them by the persons who broke their windows, are strongly of the opinion that the punishment has not been anything like severe enough.

asked how many, if any, suffragist prisoners are being forcibly fed, and whether any further arrangements have been made as to the grant of the privileges contained in Rule 243a?

The number who have to be fed by artificial means varies from day to day, but, including all the prisons, it is now, I understand, seventeen. In view of representations made to me by the chairman of the London Quarter Sessions, I have decided to extend Rule 243a to all the suffragist prisoners convicted at Quarter Sessions. The privileges given under the rules will be modified in one or two particulars. It will not be possible to allow the large number of suffragists now in prison to have their meals sent in from outside indiscriminately, but, as many of them are old or in poor health, their ordinary diet will be modified to suit their needs by the prison medical officer, and subject to his approval each prisoner will be allowed to have sent in by their friends, if they so desire, one parcel of food weekly on a specified day. They will be employed only on the lighter forms of prison labour, and they will, if they behave well, have monthly visits and fortnightly letters. Strictly speaking, I have no power to extend the privileges to the hard labour prisoners; but, as those now in prison are all approaching the termination of their sentences, I feel I shall not be guilty of any serious irregularity if I allow them to be treated in the same way as the others.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the announcement applies to prisoners elsewhere than London?

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether the rule referred to will be printed with the answer he has given?

Yes, certainly, it will be printed with this answer. [ See Written Answers this date. ]

Juvenile First Offenders

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that two boys under the age of seventeen, named Bass and Downes, both first offenders, were on 8th April convicted of gaming by the Woolwich stipendiary and fined 2s. 6d. each, and in default of immediate payment were each imprisoned in Wandsworth prison as ordinary criminals for five days; and whether, seeing that this imprisonment of juvenile first offenders for trivial offences was severely condemned by Mr. Secretary Churchill in this House on 20th July, 1910, he proposes to expedite the Bill expressly promised on that occasion?

I will make inquiry into the case referred to by my hon. Friend. The answer to the second part of his question is that I hope to be able soon to introduce the Bill.

Divorce Law

asked when the Report of the Royal Commission on the Divorce Law is going to be presented to the House; and how long is it since the Commission concluded its labours?

The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. The Commissioners have not yet concluded their labours, and I am informed that having regard to the mass of materials which they have to consider, they do not expect to be in a position to report before the middle of the year.

May I ask whether it is a fact that the members of the Royal Commission have such divergent views on this matter that they are unable to prepare their report?

Coal Mines (Minimum Wage) Act

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now announce the names of the members of the District Boards appointed by the Government under the Coal Mines (Minimum Wage) Act; whether he can state when the awards are likely to be made; and whether, for the purpose of avoiding friction between areas, they can be made simultaneously?

Joint District Boards under the Coal Mines (Minimum Wage) Act have been formed for nineteen of the twenty-two districts included in the Schedule to the Act, and boards are in process of formation in the three remaining districts. The names of several of the chairmen who have up to the present been appointed have already appeared in the Press, and when the list is complete I will have it printed with the Votes. The other members of the boards number some hundreds, and I do not think any advantage would be gained by announcing their names. The matter referred to in the last part of the question is one for the Joint District Boards to determine, subject to the limits laid down in Section 4 of the Act.

Elementary Schools (Non-Attendance)

asked what statute permits education authorities to insist on the production of a medical certificate when a child does not attend school through sickness; and whether any plan is available to save the parent the expense of a certificate to prove the child's ill-health?

Under Section 74 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, it is a reasonable excuse for non-compliance with the by-laws made by a Local Education Authority requiring parents to cause their children to attend school that the child has been prevented from attending by sickness. It is, I think, for the Local Education Authorities to determine what evidence they require that the excuse put forward by the parent is well founded.

May I ask whether there is any Statute which compels these people to produce a medical certificate?

Section 74 of the Act is quite definite, and I think the purpose of it is conveyed in precise language.

Is there any Section in the Act requiring that a medical certificate should be produced?

I said that it is for the local authority to determine what evidence they require to enable them to say whether or not the excuse is a valid one.

May I ask whether it is not simply the duty of the local authority to say that a child is not attending school, and whether it is not entirely for the Court to determine whether the excuse is reasonable?

The Noble Lord is mistaken. The matter is dealt with in the ordinary course of administration by the attendance committee. The attendance committee inquire into the circumstances.

I am perfectly aware of that. Is not the right hon. Gentleman also aware that the only way to enforce the decision of the attendance committee is by an order of the Court?

If the attendance committee is satisfied that the excuse is a-reasonable one the case cannot be taken into Court.

Unlawful Assembly (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that three persons were convicted at the last winter assizes in Ireland of the common law offence of unlawful assembly and sentenced by the judge, despite their protest, to imprisonment with hard labour; whether he is aware that the judge had no power whatever to impose hard labour in the cases, and that its imposition entails other serious consequences and disqualifications; and what steps he intends to take in the matter?

The persons referred to in the hon. Member's question were indicted for riot, unlawful assembly, and assault, but it appears from the record that they were only convicted of the offence of unlawful assembly. I am advised that this, being only a common law offence, is not punishable by imprisonment with hard labour, and that, if the prisoners had moved the High Court for a Writ of Error, the judgment would probably have been set aside; but its legality was not challenged. The sentence of imprisonment with hard labour entails disqualification for membership of a county or district council or board of guardians, unless a free pardon is granted. In the circumstances I have no doubt that His Excellency will be advised to grant a free pardon to these persons who were sentenced.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to state how poor people would be able to move the High Court 1 As that would require money, where are the poor people to get the money?

In this case the prisoners were defended by counsel, so that the preliminary difficulty seems to be got over.

The main difficulty was the want of money to carry the case to the High Court.

Military Plying Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can state what will be the number of aviators in the British, German, and French armies, respectively, at the end of this year; and what will be the number of flying machines which will be owned at the end of this year by the Governments of Great Britain, Germany, and France?

I am not in a position to give any accurate estimate of the numbers.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know the number of aeroplanes which, foreign Powers will have at the end of this year?

Surely the hon. Gentleman will see that it is impossible for me to state what number of aeroplanes will be in the possession of foreign Powers and this country at the end of this year. They take a very short time to construct.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what number will be in possession' of this country at the end of this year?

No, Sir, that will depend to some extent on whether this House wishes to increase the money voted for aeroplanes and aviators.

I have stated that, if an additional number are required, the matter will have to be considered.

Special Reserve Officers (Jury Service)

asked whether officers of the Special Reserve are not exempt from jury work while Regular and Territorial officers are exempt; and, if so, what is the reason for this differentiation?

Exemption from jury service was granted as a special concession to members of the Territorial Force on the formation of the force. No such general exemption was granted to officers of the Militia, and on the conversion of that force into the Special Reserve the exemption was not granted to them.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it very hard that officers of the Special Reserve should be liable for jury service?

It is not a question whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks it hard; it is a question of law.

Territorial Force

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, in the instructions for annual training camps (Territorial Force) issued this year, the pay and allowances for advance and rear parties have been reduced by seven days, although the same amount of work has to be done as in previous years, and the strength of the parties has not been increased; and whether he can state the reasons for such reduction?

In accordance with Paragraph 340, Territorial Force Regulations, the general officer commanding-in-chief arranges what advance and rear parties are required, and pay and allowances are issued for the day of their attendance. No special instructions other than those mentioned have been issued by the War Office.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is quite impossible for these advance and rear parties to do the work properly in the short time allowed them, and will he look into the matter to see whether he cannot suggest the longer period as before?

I will certainly look into the point. It certainly has not arisen out of any instruction issued by the War Office. If there is a difficulty, I will certainly consider it.

Business of the House

asked the Prime Minister whether the introduction of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill has been again postponed; if so, whether he can state the reason; and if he will say when the Bill is likely to be introduced?

With regard to the first part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Prime Minister yesterday in reply to a supplementary question.

Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer make any statement as to the business to be taken next week?

asked whether it is proposed that the Welsh Disestablishment Bill shall be introduced early next week; and, if not, what reasons there are against such a course?

On Monday we will take Supply, subject in the usual way to the representations made as to the particular Supply which should be taken. It had been our intention to give a day and a-half to the First Reading of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill, but owing to strong representations from the other side it has been decided to give two whole days, so that the Welsh Disestablishment Bill will be introduced on Tuesday and the discussion will be concluded on Thursday. On Wednesday we shall take the Second Reading of the Government of India Bill.

I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government cannot give three days to the introduction of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill? In view of the fact that it has been publicly stated that the Government intend to withdraw the consideration in Committee of this Bill from the Committee of the Whole House and send it to the Committee upstairs, is not it only right that they should give at least three days to the introduction of this Bill?

I do not know upon what ground the hon. Gentleman bases his assumption that the Government intend to withdraw the Bill from the Committee of the Whole House. That is a matter upon which the hon. Gentleman must ask the Prime Minister when we come to the Second Reading of the Bill. With regard to the first part of the question the First Reading was taken on one day on the last occasion.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication as to when the Second Reading of the Government of Ireland Bill will be taken?

I cannot answer that question. I will consult the Prime Minister on the subject.

In reference to what the right hon. Gentleman said a moment ago in reply to my hon. Friend behind me, I think that I ought to give notice that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition will ask the Prime Minister, before the introduction of the Bill, what are the intentions of the Government in regard to its treatment in the Committee stage?

Is it not within the competence of the House, and not of the Government, to determine whether a Bill should be considered by the Committee of the Whole House or upstairs?

Is there any distinction between the will of the Government and the will of the House?

Notices of Motion

Sugar Duty

I beg to give notice that on this day four weeks I will call attention to the Sugar Duty, and move a Resolution.

Poor Law Reform

I beg to give notice that on this day four weeks I will call attention to the need for Poor Law reform, and move a Resolution.

Education Act

I beg to give notice that on this day four weeks I will call attention to the unsatisfactory working of the Education Act, particularly in regard to the powers conferred upon the local educational authorities and education officers, and move a Resolution.

Bills Presented

Prisons Bill

"To consolidate and amend the Prisons Acts, 1865 to 1902, and certain enactments relating to convict prisons and the prevention of crime; to make further provision with respect to prisoners and convicts and persons undergoing preventive detention; and for other purposes connected therewith." Presented by Mr. HERBERT CRAIG; supported by Mr. Bad-ford, Mr. George Greenwood, Mr. Llewelyn Williams, Mr. Sherwell, Sir Robert Price, Mr. Snowden, Mr. Glanville, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Beck, Mr. Marshall, and Mr. George Eoberts; to be read a second time upon Monday, 10th June, and to be printed. [Bill 140.]

Privileges of Counsel Bill

"To limit and define the Privilege of Counsel." Presented by Mr. BOTTOMXEY; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 141.]

Government of India Bill

"To make such amendments in the Law relating to the Government of India as are consequential on the appointment of a separate Governor of Fort William, in Bengal, and other administrative changes in the local government of India." Presented by Mr. MONTAGU; supported by Mr. Churchill and the Attorney-General; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 142.]

Committee on Estimates

I beg to move,

"That a Select Committee be appointed to examine and report on such of the Estimates presented to this House as may seem fit to the Committee."

It will be within the recollection of the House that some time ago a memorial was presented to the Prime Minister on this subject. It was very widely and influentially signed, and was one of the most influential memorials, I think, that were ever presented to the head of the Government. It was signed, not merely by Members on this side of the House, but by a very considerable number of Members sitting on the Opposition side of the House. It represented the opinion of a very considerable body of Members of all parties, and I feel that it represented also a very growing feeling of uneasiness as to the enormous increase in expenditure during the last fifteen or twenty years, and a feeling that the House was not exercising control over that expenditure that it used to do. I will just take two figures in order to show how gigantic that growth has been within living memory. I. will take, first, the year 1872. It was a year of great prosperity, like the year 1912. In 1872 the total expenditure of the country was £71,313,000. This year the Estimates aggregate the immense total of £186,885,000. That is an increase in forty years of £115,000.000. That is a very enormous and very alarming growth in expenditure. But I think it rather important that we should examine the causes of that expenditure and what the increase is attributable, to because it bears rather on the policy of the Committee, and it also bears on the functions which ought to be entrusted to that Committee. The growth is attributable mainly to four or five causes. The first is the Post Office. There, there has been a growth from something like £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 up to £23,000,000, representing an increase of £19,500,000. That is an increase which represents a very considerable profit to the State. The next cause is the growth of expenditure on education. Prior to the year 1870 education was considered to be a matter of individual effort, and the policy of undertaking national education as a national charge was one which Was acknowledged first as a national obligation in the Act of 1870. Up to that date the Education Estimates were under £2,000,000. In 1912 they are £18,729,000. That is a growth of considerably over £16,000,000. Then there are grants for local taxation. These appeared for the first time practically as an item of Imperial expenditure after 1870, and they amount to just under £10,000,000. That is a big charge. Pensions are a new charge— thirteen million pounds.

I am coming to the Naval and Military Estimates. I think I ought to explain that anyone who has seen the Civil Service Estimates finds an enormous increase of something like between £30,000,000 or £40,000,000. It is customary to represent that as an increase of the charges for the Civil Service caused by the addition of the number of persons appointed to Civil Services offices. That is not the case at all. The Civil Service Estimates include education and old age pensions, and most of the increase of the Civil Service Estimates is attributable to those heads of expenditure, and not to new appointments at all. The largest increase of all is attributable to the Army and Navy. Nearly half of this gigantic increase is attributable to the growth of Army and Navy expenditure. In 1872 the cost of the Army was £15,677,000; last year it was £27,860,000, almost double. The Navy in 1872 stood at £9,508,000; it now stands at £44.085,000, nearly quintupled. Taking the Army and Navy together, in 1872 they stood at something like £25,000,000; now they stand at £72,000,000 —almost three times as much as it was then. The cost of a first-class battleship in 1872 was £530,000. A first-class battle- ship now costs very nearly £2,000,000. These items together amount roughly to £106,000,000 out of the total increase of our expenditure of £115,000,000. These are the main items of increase. What I want to point out is this: These increases all represent policy; they represent a change in policy with regard to education—a complete change in the attitude of both parties in respect of their obligations towards education. They represent a complete change of attitude towards social questions, and therefore you have got the enormous increase of £13,000,000 for pensions. They represent a complete change in the attitude taken in regard to what is called sanitation. Although that is a local charge, the increase in respect of sanitation, as well as in regard to education, has pressed so heavily upon the local authorities that they have had to come to the Exchequer, saying that it really must help them, and the Exchequer has helped them to the extent of £10,000,000. I point that out because it has a very important bearing upon the appointment of the Committee.

The same thing applies to the Army and Navy. I only gave those two or three illustrations, but the same observation applies right through. It is a question of policy. What I want to emphasise is that no Committee can possibly examine those questions of policy. The House must be responsible, and responsible as a whole, for those questions; but within those limits there is a considerable sphere in which a Committee of the House of Commons can exercise vigilance in regard to questions of economy, efficiency, and adequacy for the purpose, but questions of policy are questions, I submit to the House, which are completely outside the range of any Committee of this character. There is a good deal that can be done by this Committee, assuming that the policy is directed by the House as a whole. After all they can scrutinise very closely the expenditure in the various departments, and the profits of a business very largely depend on the care with which that scrutiny is conducted. It may make all the difference between profit and loss. It is not a question altogether of policy, it is not altogether a question of amount — it is a question of getting full value for the money expended. There I think the Committee can assist you, and can find whether you are getting value for your money. What are the present checks upon expenditure? The House of Commons is supposed to exercise very strict supervision over the spending of money. With all respect, I say the House of Commons does nothing of the kind.

4.0 p.m.

During the whole twenty years or more that I have been a Member of this House they have not done it. I remember the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Balfour), when he moved the new Supply Rule, called attention to this, and I would just say this about the Supply Rule: There is a good deal said about Votes at the end of the year being passed under that Rule without any discussion. I remember very well in 1901 £67,000,000 were passed without a word of discussion, and, on the Report stage, £86,000,000 were passed. I think last year £62,000,000 were passed without discussion. Undoubtedly that is very scandalous, but does anyone imagine that it will make the slightest difference to the expenditure whether there was discussion or not? If anyone imagines that it would make the slightest difference whether there was discussion or not, he has no experience of public departments. The only difference it would make would probably be to increase the Estimates. The House of Commons has not within living memory exercised any control over expenditure in the sense of directors exercising control over expenditure in their business. Discussions in Supply—and there are many here who have attended discussions during the last five, ten, or twenty years who will bear out what I say—are confined to two points. First of all, there is the very important one of redress of grievances before Supply. That is very important. It lies at the very foundation of our liberties. The second is criticism of the administration. That is perfectly proper. Most of the time is directed to pressing the Executive to spend money on some purpose or other. I remember, I think it was Mr. Childers, who, during the time he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, examined the proposals that were made to him. There were 500 proposals made in Supply, twenty of which were for reductions and 480 for increases. Things have got very much worse now. I admit there is a small section which criticises the Army and Navy Estimates from the point of view of reducing them. I wish it were larger, I admit frankly.

I know that, hut I have never seen a Debate of that kind where there was not at least three to one against any proposals for reducing the Estimates. That is really the fact.

I am not examing the reasons. I am just giving the facts to begin with. Apart from that, I never heard a suggestion from any quarter of the House for reducing the expenditure in any Department. I have heard vague phrases about extravagance and how much better things ought to be done, but I never heard practical, concrete suggestions for reducing expenditure in any Department. Every Debate in Committee of Supply always ends in suggestions made that you should spend more in this direction or that direction or the other direction. I looked through the list the other day and I found that two years ago, throughout the whole of Committee of Supply, there was not a single Debate which did not turn on appeals to the Minister to spend more money. I thought the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London was above reproach in that matter, but I am sorry to find his name amongst those who appealed to the Executive to spend more money. I think it was an appeal to spend more money on rates for public buildings. It was on the 14th May in that particular year: "Sir Frederick Banbury wanted to know why the Government contribution with regard to rates paid on houses occupied by representatives had not been increased."

That would increase the charges. I felt that if the hon. Baronet deserts us we are indeed friendless. Those appeals come from every quarter of the House, and the House of Commons has absolutely ceased to exercise any real, close supervision upon the spending of public money. The old object of all Radicals who in those days applied themselves to reduce public expenditure and to effect economy, all that has disappeared, and instead of it you get nothing but appeals from every quarter of the House. I remember Sir Henry Fowler, on a Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, saying that he examined the Motions for reduction during the preceding ten years and only three of them were carried. They were reductions for £500, except one for £100 on cordite, and they were all reductions moved and carried, not with a view to effecting reductions, but with a view to voting increases. The Motion for £100 on cordite was not in order to decrease the amount, but in order to have more money spent. That is the substance of every Motion in Debates on Committee of Supply. Thus, as far as the House of Commons is concerned, there is really no check on the expenditure; it is all the other way about. It does not matter what Bill is brought in by any Government which involves public expenditure, the Opposition, and I am not referring to the present Opposition, but to every Opposition, endeavours to increase the charge. Where does the check come from now? There is practically no check, except the check of the Treasury, and it is a question really of supporting the Treasury in its scrutiny. I have heard many times in this House attacks on the Treasury, talks about the niggardliness of the Treasury. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) never makes a speech without attacking the Treasury. In that very powerful speech he delivered yesterday he was full of scorn for the Treasury and Treasury clerks. That really is rather the general attitude of those who are disappointed in demands made on the Treasury. It is regarded as treasonable on the part of the Treasury clerks to put down expenditure, forgetting that they are at the present moment the only check there is upon increase in expenditure. The House of Commons has ceased to be a check.

I have not forgotten the Public Accounts Committee. I think I shall be able to prove that it is inadequate, not because it is inefficient, quite the reverse, but because its functions are inadequate to the performance of the duties which are necessary. That is the attitude of almost every Department. The Treasury is in the position of always coming down and always checking and always saying No, and therefore there is constant war between the Departments which are spending Departments and the Treasury. And you have no real check upon recurring expenditure but the check of the Treasury. It is quite inefficient for the real demand there is for a thorough overhauling of the whole expenditure of the Session. After all, any attempt at economy is a very unpleasant task. You cannot achieve it without cutting down salaries, without getting rid of officials, without dispensing with the services of people, without withdrawing orders, and whenever you do it somebody is hit, and somebody's constituent is hit. It does not matter what it is. Supposing it is ammunition or supposing it is the building of ships, there is some constituency that is hit by that, and then you find the pressure coming on the House of Commons, but never any pressure to support the action of the Treasury or of Departments in effecting economy. The pressure is always brought to prevent Departments from effecting economies, and therfore it is a very unpleasant task. Unless the House of Commons is prepared to support those who are undertaking that unpleasant duty expenditure will grow without your getting anything in return. That is what we ought to aim at, because, if the House of Commons decides the policy and whether it is worth while to incur the expenditure on a particular purpose, it is for the House of Commons to decide the scale of that expenditure.

Within those limits there is a good deal of saving that could be effected in seeing whether that expenditure is not on too extravagant scale, and whether you could not do with less money for the purpose. That is really the kind of examination that the Committee could, I will not say effectively conduct, but it could assist those who are conducting it, and at any rate support them in achieving their purpose. I therefore come to the suggestion we are making. The task of those who are associated with expenditure is very onerous. I was charged yesterday with being a very extravagant Chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, as I expected, approves of that suggestion. As a matter of fact, I have only been responsible directly for an increase of about four millions to the expenditure of this country in any proposal which I made, but I have resisted increases which came not to four millions, but to tens of millions. Certainly I have done so in this House, and resisted suggestions coming from the party that the Noble Lord so ably organises, but I certainly have already said that the pressure comes from behind me just as well. It comes from every quarter of the House. The only support I really got last year was from the hon. Baronet the Member for the City and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain). I am bound to acknowledge that. That is the position of every Chancellor of the Exchequer.

That is a thing the House of Commons desired. [Hon. Members: "No."] Certainly. [An HON. MEMBER: "You supported it."] I agree that the Government did it, and I am not in the slightest degree trying to dissociate the Government from that matter, but I want to say it is a responsibility not merely of the Government, but of the House of Commons as a whole, which not merely supported them, but pressed them into it. That is the undoubted position. [An. HON. MEMBER: "The Government was misled."] Hon. Members can criticise later on. Those are really questions that no Committee decides or really can decide. The House of Commons cannot give such functions as that as to policy to anyone. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not yet."] I am not sure that it ever will. I shall come later on to the question whether it is conceivable that they could do that when we come to discuss the category of this Committee. Therefore, the first thing I lay down is this: In any Committee you appoint there must be no Committee that will divest the Executive of its responsibility. That is, there must be no Committee which is to be a substitute for House of Commons responsibility; and the third point is, that there must be no Committee that will accept responsibility for the policy it is examining.

There is nothing about that in the reference. Would the right hon. Gentleman put in something which would ensure that what he desires should be carried out in the reference?

I should like to consider that. I am not sure whether it is desirable to restrict in the terms or whether it is not better that there should be an understanding between all parties in the House. The Chairman of the Committee must be drawn from the Opposition, and I think it would be far better to leave the question to the general understanding of the House rather than to specify it in words which might be difficult to interpret. There have been two Committees on this subject—one was the Committee of 1888, Lord Hartington's Committee, and the other was moved as the result of a Motion by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, in 1903. The Hartington Committee recommended, I think, that we should substitute a Standing Committee of this House of not more than seventy Members for the Committee of the Whole House in the examination of certain Estimates. The Committee of 1903 considered that, and decided to set it on one side. That is my recollection. There were four specific plans suggested. The first was the Hartington plan of a Grand Committee. The second was that the whole of the Estimate should be referred to one or more Select Committees precedent to the Votes being discussed in Committee of Supply. The third was that a Select Committee should be appointed to make a kind of post-mortem examination of a portion of the Estimates of the nearest preceding year available. These three proposals were rejected. The fourth proposal, which is the one now recommended, was that at the beginning of each Session one class of Estimates should be referred to a Select Committee for examination precedent to the Votes being discussed in Committee of Supply. This Committee was to be called the Estimates Committee, and was to have power to call for witnesses and papers; it was to be dovetailed with the Public Accounts Committee by a proportion of the Members being appointed to both Committees, and the particular class of Estimates to be subjected to its scrutiny was to be selected by the Public Accounts Committee in such a way that they should endeavour to pass in review each Vote within a limited number of years. That is the plan which the Government propose to recommend.

The right hon. Gentleman was, I think, a member of the Committee. It was appointed by a Unionist Government, and the recommendation was carried, I understand, by a majority of two. That substantially is-the recommendation which we propose to try as an experiment. The proposal is that you should take one class of Estimates and examine them thoroughly. It is quite impossible for any Committee to make a thorough examination of all the Estimates in a single year. After all, the examination of the Treasury is, in the main, confined to new expenditure. I do not mean to say that there is not a general overhauling of the expenditure, but the real scrutiny must necessarily be confined to the new expenditure. A Committee of this kind, when it started with a particular Vote, would examine the whole of the Vote, including the recurring expenditure. That would take a very considerable time. It would be quite impossible to examine the whole of the Estimates thoroughly and give a satisfactory account of them in a single year. Therefore, it is proposed to take the Estimates in turn, and to go from one Department to another in rotation. I have already laid down the exceptions. The Committee is to have nothing to do with questions of policy, and there must be no impairing of Ministerial or House of Commons control. Those are the main exceptions which I lay down on behalf of the Government in relation to the powers of this Committee. It must necessarily be purely experimental. Other countries have tried many experiments in order to arrive at the result that we seek to attain. There is a growing feeling everywhere that expenditure is leaping up, and in every country leaping up almost beyond their resources. This causes a good deal of alarm, not only in this country, but in every country in the world. In some countries the powers entrusted to Committees of this character are very great. Some of these Committees examine the policy and the whole of the Estimates, but those Committees accept responsibility not only for examining the Estimates, but also for recommendations in regard to methods of raising the money. That is now part of the trouble. One Department, or one member, or one section of members has the credit, such as it is, of proposing increased expenditure, but it falls entirely upon the shoulders of the Minister of another Department to raise the money. When the House of Commons discussed Estimates in Committee of Supply, a Member will get up very cheerfully and make a proposal involving an expenditure of perhaps half a million of money. If that Member had at the same time to propose the particular tax by which that money should be raised, I do not think you would get so many Motions in Committee of Supply to increase expenditure. I am certain of it.

The French, Budget Committee examines Estimates, and also accepts responsibility for finding, the ways and means for meeting the Estimates. Hence you get a double and a. more serious responsibility placed upon the shoulders of that Committee. That I think would be a very serious proposal indeed. Some Friends of mine, such as the right hon. Member for Islington (Mr. Lough), would, I gather, like to go very much further, and give much wider powers, to a Committee of this kind. I do not think further powers should be given, unless the House of Commons agreed to something on the lines of the French Budget Committee. The trouble is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in meeting, demands of this kind, cannot always decide a claim merely on its merits. He has to consider not merely merits but means, and after he has considered means he has to consider comparative merits. I say very respectfully that that is exactly what the House of Commons never does, so far as my experience goes. I have never heard, a Debate in the House of Commons in regard to a proposal to increase expenditure when the House of Commons has put itself in the position in which every representative of the Treasury must put himself.

Oh, yes, they can, and I think they ought to do so. It. is very easy to propose expenditure to please one section of a Member's constituents, but it is not so easy at the same time to avoid displeasing another section, of those constituents if you say you are going to tax them to raise the money.

But the House of Commons ought certainly, when there is a proposal to increase expenditure, to bear in mind that increases of that kind involve a tax, and they ought to be prepared to face it. Hon. Members on both, sides who have pressed the Government very hard to increase expenditure fight just as hard against taxes which have been imposed in order to meet that expenditure. That is a very unfair division of labour. People want to associate themselves with the Treasury when it is a matter of getting money, but they dissociate themselves immediately it is a question of raising the money by taxation. The House of Commons ought to consider expenditure from both sides. That is what the French Budget Committee does. But that, I think, cannot be done by an Estimates Committee when it is a question of policy, unless it has also the responsibility of finding ways and means. I am not suggesting the French Budget Committee. I am only saying that unless you are prepared to go to that extent a Committee of this kind ought not to embark on great questions of policy. Now I come to the Public Accounts Committee. This Committee was appointed as the result of an Act of Mr. Gladstone in the year, I think, 1866.

At any rate, it was during Mr. Gladstone's tenure of the Office of Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Public Accounts Committee can investigate only past expenditure. I think the position of the Committee is very fairly stated in the able memorial presented to the Prime Minister. First of all, the Act appointed the Comptroller and Auditor-General, an officer of the House, and independent of the Treasury, to examine the accounts at the end of the year. The Committee examines any irregularities or defects reported by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, summons before it Departmental officers for further explanation and reports its judgment to the House. I agree with what is said in the memorial that the Public Accounts Committee has achieved a very considerable measure of success. But its functions are limited more or less to the examination of irregularities in the Departments.

No. They are rather more than that, because, although the Committee deals primarily with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, it examines the whole of the Appropriation Accounts, and a great many questions are gone into which the Comptroller and Auditor-General does not raise. I maintain that the functions of the Committee are hardly limited at all. They go much further than the memorial states.

But, on the whole, it is a question whether the money has been spent for the particular purpose for which it was voted. That is substantially the point which the Committee settles.

It is more than that, because it has been accepted by the Treasury itself that the Comptroller and Auditor-General may examine anything which in his opinion has caused a waste of public money.

Up to a certain point that is so. But I never heard of the Public Accounts Committee taking any particular Department in hand, overhauling its expenditure, and saying, "We consider that too much money has been spent upon this particular service; you have too many officials; salaries are too high; the scale is too extravagant." They do not go into these matters.

If the Government will give us a day at the end of the Session they will hear something about them.

It is very incidental to their work. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman says that they consider it part of their function to examine the Estimates of a Department, to go into the whole question of the number of officials, and the scale of expenditure—of course, it is very difficult to draw the line in these matters. I agree that if you set up this Committee it will be very difficult to draw the line between its functions and the functions of the Public Accounts Committee, just as it is very difficult to draw the line between what are questions of policy and what are merely questions of economy. I think it will be difficult. What has happened in the case of the Public Accounts Committee is in itself a proof that it is the natural tendency of a Committee of this sort to enlarge its own functions. I am not criticising that at all.

The Public Accounts Committee was appointed to examine the Accounts. There is no limitation of the word.

At any rate, this is what we propose now: that the recommendation of the Committee of 1903 should be tried by way of experiment, that a Committee of this character should be appointed to take the Estimates in turn, to examine each of the Estimates one after another, including recurring expenditure. It should not be confined to questions of irregularities in the Accounts. It should examine them exactly as a Finance Committee of a municipal corporation examines its accounts, taking its directions as to policy from the House of Commons just as the municipal committee would take its directions as to policy from its own council. Subject to that policy, this Committee can examine these Estimates, and report to the House of Commons upon the subject. It will then be for the House of Commons to decide and act upon that Report, to decide whether they act upon it as a whole or in part, or whether they will set it aside altogether. For at the end the responsibility is the responsibility of the House of Commons, and the House of Commons alone. This will be a Committee to assist the House of Commons to discharge its functions; to discharge functions which it cannot possibly discharge unless it is prepared to delegate some part of its duties. It will, I hope, assist the Treasury to discharge very delicate and very disagreeable functions. If it answers these purposes, as I have some hope it will, though it cannot cut down the enormous expenditures which are incurred, some for productive and useful purposes, like education, and some for purely unproductive purposes, it will, at any rate, be able to achieve a measure of economy and efficiency which will justify its existence.

There is one preliminary observation I must make on something which has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which is not particularly germane to our present discussion. In the course of his speech the right hon. Gentleman threw out an aside to the effect that he regretted that there were no more critics upon these benches to deprecate the military and naval expenditure of the Government.

The right hon. Gentleman says he had no intention of saying so. I therefore very gladly accept his correction, but I am afraid he has forgotten what he did say. I put down his words when he spoke: "He wished there were more such critics." What really is the position of the Chan- cellor of the Exchequer on these matters? He came before the House the other day to present his Budget, and incidentally he spoke of our naval and military expenditure. Speaking at the very moment when he had to consider the taxes to be imposed, speaking as a guardian of the public purse, he said that he had satisfied himself that the expenditure proposed by the Government was the minimum necessary for the safety of the country. What then does the Chancellor mean by saying that he wishes there were more people in this House to refuse to vote the minimum which the Government requires.

The right hon. Gentleman does not, I am sure, wish to misrepresent me. I certainly never said that I wished that there were any more men in the House to refuse to vote the minimum. I said that I wished there were more critics of expenditure, not merely on the Army and Navy but everything else. I do wish there were more critics of our expenditure. I said that I was very sorry that we had not got critics of our expenditure all round.

I do not know that the right hon. Gentleman has ever committed himself to so solemn a statement about the expenditure in other branches of the public service as he made the other day about the Army and the Navy. I conceive that the Government which produces the Estimates to the House, which believes them the minimum requirements for the public safety, ought to desire that those Estimates should be accepted by the House; even that they should be accepted unanimously by the House. I do not understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He plays a double part. He recommends the Estimates to the House of Commons, having proved them to his satisfaction to give a minimum necessary for safety, and at the same time he invites his followers in the House to criticise the Ministers who are responsible for the expenditure. It is a grave matter, and not one I could pass without mention, though it is not directly germane to the Motion which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made. I hope I need not detain the House long, but I must tell hon. Members at once and frankly that I greatly regret the decision which the Government has come to. I am wholly opposed to the establishment of this Committee, which, in my opinion, will either be useless or will be in the highest degree mischievous.

Perhaps the House of Commons will permit me to say that I speak with some experience in regard to such matters as these. I have been very fortunate in my House of Commons career. I have served a very considerable portion of it in office. I first entered into a great spending department, and into a branch of that department which is itself a great spending department at that moment, when I became a Civil Lord of the Admiralty, and had charge of great works which are being developed. I was then moved to the Secretaryship of the Treasury. I then held for a short time the position of Postmaster-General, who is a great spender of money and a great maker of revenue. Then I came back to the Treasury as Chancellor of the Exchequer. For two or three years, I think it was, I was a member of the Public Accounts Committee. I hope, therefore, the House will feel that if I seem to speak a little dogmatically I do not speak without having had some grounds for forming an opinion, and without having had the necessity to form such opinions forced upon me. The Committee, indeed, to which the right hon. Gentleman has alluded was appointed, I think, by my predecessor, Mr. Ritchie. It reported at the time I was Chancellor of the Exchequer. I had to give consideration to its report and to advise my colleagues as to the action which we as a Government should take. The advice which I gave to my colleagues then, and which I am glad to think they followed at that time, was the advice which I venture to tender to the House of Commons to-day. It was and is that we should not pass the Motion which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made.

I think it must be evident to anyone who has followed the agitation for the establishment of such a Committee; to anyone who has listened to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or has listened to the interruptions with which he was greeted, and watched what passages of his speech afforded the greatest interest, that if the Committee is to be only what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said, it will be a very small one. It will not satisfy those who are most eager for its establishment, especially after the Chancellor's speech, or that part of it with which he dwelt on the great growth of expenditure, subsequently, so to speak, to strike this out from the purview of the Committee. For he only dwelt upon that great growth in order to show that the whole of it was the result of policy, and that it is policy which it is not the intention of the Government to allow this Committee to meddle with. What is there, then, for it to do? If the Committee carries out the intentions of the Government, and are content to be the humble handmaids which the Government see them in their imagination, they are to look about among the Votes, taking one class or one section of a class each year, for pure extravagance, waste due to ignorance, due to want of review of the situation, and the perpetuation of expenditure that may have been justified at one time, but has ceased to have any purpose at the present time?

No, Sir, the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, that is not their business, nor do we need them in order to do it. That is expressly the business of the Public Accounts Committee, and it is discharged by the Public Accounts Committee with great zeal, with great care, and, I think, with great success. I know of no question which more frequently is repeated at the Public Accounts Committee than, "Why has your Estimate been exceeded?" or, on the other hand, "Why was your Estimate so largely in excess of your real requirements?"

Did the right hon. Gentleman then reduce the Estimates the next year?

My hon. and gallant Friend is Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and he will pardon me if I do not anticipate his speech any more than is necessary for the immediate purposes of Debate. I really should not like to make a speech which ought to be, and will be, made with more force by him. If, therefore, I pass lightly by the Public Accounts Committee, he must not think that I mean disrespect to that industrious and hard-worked body. I go back to what I was discussing. An hon. Member suggests the enlargement of the scope of this Committee. What is in the mind of the Government? It is simply to find wasteful excrescences upon the Votes. I do not think you can carry it beyond that. The moment you go beyond that it is a question of policy. Is a Committee of this House the best body that you can have, or its machinery the best that you can create, to prevent that kind of extravagance? In my opinion no Committee will do it. That needs daily and continuous watching. The only security that you have and can have that that work will be properly done is, in the first place, in finding officials who will act in a proper spirit within each separate Department; in the second place, in having Ministers who will realise that to secure economy is one of their first duties; and, in the third place, in having a Treasury which is really the guardian of the public purse, not an ignorant or unsympathetic critic of expenditure in other Departments, but a critic which puts those Departments on their mettle to prove their case before it gives them the money for which they ask.

A Committee of this House may sit and examine the Estimates of a particular Department or a series of Departments in any given year. They will occupy a great deal of their own time. They will certainly occupy a vast amount of the time of the Department. When all is said and done, is that the procedure which, in a normally managed and successful business, would be adopted by any business community outside this House? The right hon. Gentleman tried to seek some parallel in the proceedings of public companies. I think there is no parallel for this procedure in the case of a public company, unless it is of a company that is either in liquidation or in obvious danger of going into liquidation. It is then that a company appoints a committee of shareholders, because they do not trust the directors, and because they believe that the directors have mismanaged the affairs of the company, and that they want to get at the bottom of it and to replace them by other men. But as long as the shareholders have confidence in their directors, they do not appoint a committee of shareholders to sit side by side with the directors and to review the expenditure which the directors make.

Such a committee is then appointed to inquire into every item of expenditure to see whether it is wasteful or otherwise. An hon. Member opposite said we, in the House of Commons, are the directors in these matters. Of course we are, in one sense, in the same way as the taxpayers are the shareholders, and we are their representatives; but you cannot do that kind of work by a Committee of 670. That is why the House of Commons has failed. You cannot do it by 670 Members, but you have a Committee now, and the Committee are your Ministers, and you are going to set up a separate Committee with authority not as great as your Ministers have, but with authority that conflicts with that of Ministers. No Committee can do that work as well as Ministers if they set their mind to it. No Committee going into an examination once in ten years upon a particular class of Estimates, and the Committee will change every four or five years in personnel, can get anything like the same information as Ministers can, and have, and ought to have, in their several Departments. The result of appointing a Committee will be to directly lessen the responsibility of Ministers. You will not help the Treasury. It will not cause a Department coming to the Treasury to be more economical in its demands, or to be more careful not to ask for anything that is not absolutely necessary. It will not make the Treasury a better watch dog. The Department will say, "If we can get it from the Committee why do you boggle over it?" And the Treasury will say, "If there is any doubt about it, there is the Committee of the House of Commons to look into it. It is ho longer our sole respnsibility; let the House of Commons Committee decide whether it is wasteful or not."

I am certain, if you confine this Committee to the purposes to which the Government intends: in the first place, you will find it difficult to get any Members of standing to devote themselves to that class of work; and, in the second place, the action of such a Committee will not increase the control over public expenditure, but will lessen the responsibility of those who now have the control and will tend to increase such expenditure. Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer even think that a Committee of this House, appointed upon a reference such as he has just moved, will be content to do nothing but ask whether expenditure is absolutely wasteful, whether where you have now three clerks you could not do with two, and whether you could not get another clerk to do a particular man's job at a salary of £100 a year less. I know at once what answer a department would give, if challenged about that kind of thing. They would say, "Oh, it is a question of policy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was determined to have the best man. He could have got, for instance, as chairman of the Insurance Commissioners for Scotland someone for £l,500 a year, but he raised the figure to £2,000 because as a matter of policy he wanted this particular man." I have sat upon the Public Accounts Committee; they touch again and again on policy, and again and again there is a battle between the Committee and the representatives of the Department as to whether a matter which a member of the Committee wishes to discuss is such a one as properly comes within the sphere of the Committee and the control of the Committee or whether it raises a question of policy, as is only to be determined in the first instance by the responsible Minister, and in the second instance by the House of Commons. I am quite certain that the Committee will not be willing to be confined within such stringent limits.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer seems to have indicated—I do not want to lay too much stress upon chance words—but at any rate it was significant that he said, whilst policy would be outside the scope of the Committee, the efficiency of the services, the economy of the services, the adequacy of the service, would be within its scope. I do not know what he meant. The adequacy of the service! Then this Committee may inquire into the adequacy of the number of destroyers, into the adequacy of the arrangements for cruiser protection, into the adequacy of the armament of your battleships, into the efficiency of your Special Reserves. What nonsense it is to talk about such a Committee as that having no control over policy. There are not half a dozen men in the House who know anything about our financial procedure but would agree about that. Men who support that Committee of which the right hon. Gentleman has spoken do so, not because they believe that here and there they may correct some waste that has occurred, and here and there strike off a clerk or reduce the pay of another; that is not their reason. It is not that which makes it dear to the heart of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington (Mr. Lough). No, they want this Committee in order that they may strike at policy, in order that they may criticise the growth of expenditure of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer desires to see more, and in order that they may find in this Committee great weapons to attack particular policies. You make it perfectly certain if you establish a Committee of this kind that there will be a constant struggle on its part to enlarge the scope of its operations and to strike in by hook or by crook at the policy of the different Departments, and so to assume and arrogate to itself responsibilities which can only be discharged effectively by the Executive Government, and as to which the House of Commons must be content to make its wishes and its voice effective by the control which it has over the Government of the day. I think this Committee would not be content to look, for instance, into the expenditure of the Office of Works. I am looking forward to the future and to cases where it might wish to inquire into matters in connection with the Foreign Office, the Admiralty, and the War Office. What hon. Members want is not merely to find out whether there is a Consular agent somewhere or other; they want to strike at policy. I am quite sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer will realise I am not making any party attack in this matter. I am treating it in a non-party way. Friends of mine on this side have signed this memorial, as well as hon. Gentlemen opposite, but in all seriousness, after the frank and fair warning given by the hon. Gentleman opposite, I ask the Government will they proceed with this matter? I suggest to them that they cannot confine the Committee to what they wish, and I am certain the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, and I am quite certain that so autocratic a Gentleman as the First Lord of the Admiralty, and I think I may say I am certain that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, would object and would oppose to the last the assumption of responsibility by a Committee of this House of the kind desired by hon. Gentlemen opposite, which properly belongs to Ministers, and which unless it be centred in Ministers leaves Ministers powerless efficiently to discharge their duties to this House and to the country.

The right hon. Gentleman expressed the hope that this Committee may strengthen his hands and the hands of the Treasury. He spoke, as I suppose nearly every predecessor of his has spoken for many years, of the constant pressure by the House of Commons for further expenditure. That is quite true; it is a commonplace. We all know that the House of Commons works in water-tight compartments. Each Member presses his own expenditure regardless of how that is going to be fitted in with other expenditure. Each Member presses his own particular proposals without feeling any responsibility such as weighs upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and his colleagues in the Government, to finance the expenditure which they have incurred. But does he think that a Committee of the House of Commons investigating the Estimates would be any more inclined to be economical than the Members of the House? We have only one precedent that I know of, when Lord Randolph Churchill resigned, and partly as a result of the action he took a Committee was appointed. That was about 1887. Lord Randolph Churchill, resigned before he brought in his Budget. The Government was formed in 1886, and he resigned about Christmas 1887. In 1887 one or more Committees were established to go into the Estimates of the great spending Department, on the suggestion and at the instigation of Lord Randolph Churchill. He hoped thereby to prove his case that there was extravagance, and that great economies could be made.

5.0 P.M.

Anyone who takes the trouble to look into the Army and Navy Votes which preceded and followed that Session will see that the results of the Committee, whatever their intentions, were totally different. They did not show that the Votes were wastefully high, but they showed that they were inadequate to the needs of the times. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer is quite likely to be hoist with his own petard if this Committee gets to work because, instead of urging economy, they are sure to urge expenditure. I come back to the point from which I started. In my opinion, the proper Committee in this House for handling the Estimates is the Committee set up by the Government for examining the Estimates in detail. None of them can discharge these duties if they do not act in this matter with a common purpose. I quite agree that a particular Minister in his own Department may be able to show good cause for spending money which the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time cannot afford to provide, but they come together with a joint responsibility, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer looks at the whole demands and arranges them in their order of merit and in proportion to the amount available. The real check is, in the first place, the good conduct of the various Departments themselves. Among the Civil servants whom I have the honour to know I do not think I am acquainted with any heads of a Department who knowingly or willingly encouraged extravagance. I do not know any of them who wish to swell their Estimates merely to have them big. On the contrary, I think they had every inducement to make economies because there were always new services which they wanted to carry out or additions to old services, and, consequently the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer were under the obligation to tell them that they could not find more money, or as much more as they ask for, and if they wanted these new services they must make economies.

There is no better way for a Department to get money out of the Treasury than by showing itself keenly alive to the possibility of making economies by never asking for money unless it has a good case, and by always cutting expenditure which is no longer needed. The Departments which grumble most against the action of the Treasury are those which manage their affairs the worst, and the Departments which managed their business the best are those which have the least reason to grumble at the treatment the Treasury metes out to them. There must always be a certain amount of difference of opinion between the Treasury and its chief and the other Departments. I remember on one occasion I had the honour to be presented to a foreign Sovereign by His late Majesty, and I was presented as the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I said to the foreign Sovereign, "I do not know whether your Majesty knows what that means." "Oh, yes," said this foreign Sovereign, with a delightful smile, "I know who he is, he is the Minister who always quarrels with his colleagues." Na doubt he often disappoints them, but in my experience there is no need for him to quarrel. He and they are partners, and it is their business to save money as much as they can. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's special charge is that all the extremes of expenditure centre in him, and therefore he is in a position to survey the whole in a way that none of his colleagues can. That is the peculiarity of his position and the position of the Treasury. Even though the Treasury under the rule passed by the Government itself has become a great spending department, although I am in opposition, and sometimes find myself in the position of a critic of that Department, I say that I would much sooner trust to the efforts of that Depart-men and of Ministers to control expenditure than I would trust any Committee of this House, which if it does merely what the Government intend, would be a ridiculous nonently, and if it does more than the Government intend would be a most mischievous addition to our public authorities.

I think the answer which may be given in a single sentence to the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down in his opposition to this Motion is that he cannot conceive the idea of the House of Commons being a separate entity from the Ministry. I think that is the essential mistake which the right hon. Gentleman has made. This Motion is drawn up from the standpoint that the House of Commons, apart from the Ministry, has duties to perform. I do not say this in any hostile spirit to the present Government which I should like to support in every way in my power. I am speaking of all Governments, and I say that the liberties of the people of this country are in serious jeopardy owing to the growing power of the administration, and the bureaucracy that administration creates, apart from this House altogether. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of Exchequer, told us that there was at one time in this House a great economist, Mr. Hulme, who was largely responsible for setting up a Committee for Estimates. What was the reason Mr. Hulme and Mr. Gladstone established such an excellent system of estimates? What was the reason that they established precedents in setting up that Committee and other methods of dealing with expenditure which are so much admired to this day? The reason was that they were near the year 1832, when the people had been enfranchised, and they still believed in the House of Commons and the men who were elected to it.

What is the reason that we have become less effective in the performance of those duties? It is the growth of the Ministerial power and the bureaucracy. The precise machinery is the growth of our Standing Orders, and the steps which successive Ministers have taken to check the independent authority of this House. How are we treated? In the first place, we are gagged, and we cannot speak on the Estimates. We have an automatic closure and a guillotine, and by this means the whole thing is swept into the basket at one shot. We cannot propose an increase, and we cannot propose a decrease. What can we do? As sensible men we say that these rules render us powerless. We can do nothing, and we will not make ourselves contemptible by pretending to carry out duties which are no longer left to us, and so the House of Commons lets the Estimates go through and allows extravagance to grow at the rate it is growing now. The people outside take a very different view with regard to these matters. I would remind the Government that there was nothing in the mind of the people in 1905–6 which urged them so much to give the great majority they did to the Liberal party than the hope that the Liberal party would promote some economies in the State expenditure, and prevent it reaching such alarming proportions. There was no one did more to encourage that view than the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think we have been dealt very harshly by my right hon. Friend.

My mind goes back far enough to remember the state of things which existed in this House before these rules were brought to their present perfection. It was in 1896, when the automatic closure was first applied to the Estimates. We resisted it, and we did all we could in that direction, and no one assisted us more strongly than the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Members of the present Government. I was one of those innocent people who thought that some of those powers would be restored when the Liberal party came into office; but doubtless the Liberal Government found it so convenient to use the weapons hon. Gentlemen opposite had forged that the state of things which had existed for ten years was preserved and, if anything, has been made worse. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was unfair to us. The right hon. Gentleman said that he could not remember a single case in which an effort was made in the direction of economy, and that hon. Members were always moving for an increase in the Votes instead of a reduction. I can give the right hon. Gentleman many good examples. I remember in 1895 assisting Mr. Bowles, who moved a Motion against providing money for works for the Army and Navy by loan instead of paying it out of the Estimates for the year. The Government had set up large loans for works in connection with the Army and the Navy, and I seconded the Motion made by Mr. Bowles. Now the policy of doing works of this kind by loan has been reversed, and the money is found out of the taxes each year. That effort was made in the House of Commons against both parties with the greatest difficulty, and yet it has been perfectly successful. I will give another case in which we were not successful. A proposal was brought forward which greatly increased the Estimates of 1896 to provide subsidies towards the rates. Nobody fought that proposal so much as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and there was a tremendous fight made against it, and I believe some hon. Members were suspended. There was a desperate fight made against that great increase, which amounted to £2,000,000 a year. Those are great historic examples of efforts made not by Joseph Hulme fifty years ago, but by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, who stands up to-day and tells us that no such efforts were ever made.

I want to give one or two other illustrations. We opposed the great Education Bill of 1902 all we could, and, in many of its administrative parts it was a great measure, because in place of many thousands of education authorities it set up 330 authorities to administer education. We had such a fight about religion during the passage of that measure that we never thought about finance, and we never gave any attention to the question of whether the new machinery so set up could be worked more economically than the old machinery. Take another illustration. When the Local Government Act was passed twenty years ago the idea was to set up great authorities in local districts which would discharge some of the duties that were discharged before by central departments. The local authorities were set up, but did the central department become any smaller? Not a bit of it. The cost of local government is greater now than it was before these powers were delegated. The Board of Education costs hundreds of thousands of pounds a year more now than before these local education authorities were set up. The reason is, these matters are left altogether in the hands of the Government and the Departments, and this House has freely abandoned all its powers of representing the taxpayers and fighting the battle of economy.

I think there is a great field open to this Committee, but I must say in defence of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, although I do not agree with his view at all, that I do not feel the Committee would be very powerful if it is restrained by the opinions which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has expressed. I say "opinions," because we find no such restrictions in the words of the Resolution. If there had been such restrictions, I think I should have moved an Amendment. I agree it is very hard to say where policy begins. I cannot see how any economy can be effected which may not touch policy in some respects. Would it have been a policy, when considering the new Education Estimates, to say that as the work of the Education Department had been given over in great measure to these 330 new authorities, there might be a reduction in the Estimates, and that the Board should no longer correspond with the 20,000 separate schools in all parts of the country but should only correspond in future with the 330 authorities set up? That is the way a business man would have looked at it. He would have looked, not only for educational advancement but for some more efficient business system, and I think such a Committee as this would make a suggestion of that kind. Would that be policy? Again, would it have been policy when local government was granted throughout the country to have considered what reduction in the central expenditure might have taken place? I am quite convinced the people outside are looking for some improvement in administration of this kind, although I have some little doubt whether they will derive it from this Committee.

The right hon. Gentleman in the instances he takes assumes that the work of the two Departments diminished because these new bodies were created. The creation of these new bodies did not decrease the work of these Departments; it increased it. If you say it ought to have decreased because the Local Government Board and the Education Board ought not to meddle where they do, then of course that is policy at once, and there is the dilemma before the Committee.

I would not like to go into details. Perhaps I should be called to order too much if I argued out this particular question, but there were many matters connected with educational administration which might have been simplified, and therefore cheapened, when the new authorities were set up in 1902. Education is now paid for in the country by a series of Grants, Grants given, I think, since the thirties, and certainly since the sixties.

All those Grants were continued. They were not even amalgamated, and the correspondence goes on between the Board and the 20,000 schools, instead of having some arrangement whereby these responsible authorities which were set up in the country should be able to deal with the matter. I have spoken of the growth of our Standing Orders and the restrictions which are placed upon us with regard to what we may do in Committee of Supply. The real difficulty is this: the reins of party are too tightly drawn with regard to this matter of Estimates. We were never pledged to assent to all the things we have got to assent to when the Estimates are brought forward and the Government develops its policy. No matter what they do we are bound to agree with them. Great evils arise from that. I cannot help mentioning just one concrete case which I have talked about for years. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself challenged me. Take the growth of the Navy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in connection with that, always speaks of the opinion of the great majority of the House. All I can say is, it is not the opinion adopted by the great majority of the party that supports the Government. If we could get that party alone freed from any restrictions, then there would be a great majority in favour of moderation and economy in our national expenditure, which was the policy put before the electors. We get to this evil. A Government may come in with a crowd of followers pledged to a certain policy, and it may carry out exactly the opposite policy with the aid of the Opposition, its supporters being told, "Look at the difficulty you would be put in." Yes, but are we not a little better than the Tories? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh."] We say that on this side of the House. That is the argument put to us. We are not allowed free expression of opinion. I think a grave danger to this country is arising out of these matters, and any little step that can be taken to give greater freedom to the House of Commons is to be welcomed. I do not say this in any unfriendly spirit to the Government. I admit the axiom that His Majesty's Government must be carried on, and I am sure Gentlemen on the benches opposite do not think I would ever move a straw to put them in the place of the Gentlemen here. That is not my feeling at all. I want to make Gentlemen here carry out the policy of which I approve, and, if the large majority of their supporters have by chance any great feeling on any matter they ought to be able to control the Administration in the direction of which they approve.

I have put these opinions rather freely, because it is a subject on which I have thought a great deal. I have tried to advance economy in any little way I could, and I think, in the great matter before us I of the government of Ireland, unless that country can introduce some much more economical system than all the precedents of this House might lead them to adopt, there will be a rough time in Ireland. The taxpayers expect us to effect improvements. Economy and efficiency is always linked hand in hand. If you go to any business, you will find, without any niggardliness or starving of any service, that economy in practice is carried out—economy of machinery and economy of staff, coupled always with efficiency. The great danger to which we are exposed at the present time is that the Administration of the day has completely shaken off the control of the House of Commons, and has got behind it a great bureaucracy. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said, "Do you suppose these great Departments are in favour of extravagance?" I must say I do not free them from that charge at all. There is a tendency on the part of every Department to increase offices, and a great reluctance to cut them down. The right hon. Gentleman will not deny that.

If the right hon. Gentleman asks me, I remember very well when I was at the Treasury pressing upon my chief permanent officials that it was necessary the staff of the Treasury should be increased. Nothing was done, because I was entirely unable to persuade them it was necessary.

That is a very interesting example, but the House must not be carried away with it. It is not the general rule. The temptation to these great Departments to keep up a great staff with its inspectors or administrators is almost irresistible. I think we might carry out economies without considering that point too much. Every Civil servant has a fair and liberal contract with the State, and the House of Commons is never unfair to Civil servants. Economies would only take effect when the present holders of office either retired or died. There might be a much more drastic treatment of the central Departments than seems at all likely to take place at the present time. Although I do not hope very much from it, I cannot see anything against the Committee, especially as the Resolution is drawn in these wide words. I was thinking of suggesting an Amendment, but I think the words are wide enough, though I admit doubts about the Committee doing much, because the last Committee of which I was a member simply accomplished nothing at all. It reported in 1902–3, and since then all the national Estimates have gone up about 50 per cent. I trust the results of the efforts of this Committee will not be of that character, but I believe nothing will be done until the House of Commons is freed from the shackles imposed upon it, and until we are allowed to dictate in matters of expenditure and policy just as may seem good to us.

Everyone on this side of the House sympathises with the right hon Gentleman in the very curious position he and some of his party occupy. It was very well sketched by him when he told us they owed their seats very largely to the pledge they gave that they would effect great economy in administration and in expenditure, and that the electors now began to ask whether they were not just as bad as the party they succeeded. Not only has there been no decrease in expenditure, but there has been an immense increase ever since the right hon. Gentleman who now adorns the Treasury Bench came into office. While telling us the reins of party were too tightly drawn, the right hon. Gentleman said nothing on earth would induce him to vote for this party.

I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman would express in millions how much expenditure he would stand or when the standard of expenditure would be reached which he would Stand. We have never discovered up to the present that he has had any objection to any expenditure on the part of His Majesty's Government.

I steadily voted against the Navy Estimates, and I took that as the most unpopular Vote to give.

I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I did not know he was one of the Little Englanders on that side of the House, and I do not think his constituents know it. Perhaps we shall be able to enlighten them. The right hon. Gentleman supports the setting up of this Committee, though he himself is perfectly aware, after the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that all questions of policy are to be excluded from its purview. Yet the right hon. Gentleman says that what they want is to protect the public and the people of this country against a growing jeopardy under the present Administration and against the bureaucracy. He thinks they are going to get some kind of protection from the present Administration and bureaucracy by this Committee, although all I questions of policy are to be excluded. I He fortifies that argument in a very I curious way. He says, "You must remember I and my Friends have already been instrumental in reducing expenditure." He gave us two great instances of how he and his Friends, and I think some on this side of the House too, voted against expenditure being met by loans and in favour of that expenditure being met out of the general annual taxation of the country. But that was a matter of policy; it was not a matter which this Committee which it is proposed to set up could possibly touch. The right hon. Gentleman shows that he and his Friends were able to bring that about by a discussion in the ordinary way in Committee of the Whole House. There was the question of rating, a very large question, keenly debated in this House, and when, as he says, he tried to effect economy, how did he do it?

If the right hon. Gentleman failed in Committee of the House on a policy of that kind, how could he hope to be successful on a Committee such as it is desired to set up? It was a question of policy, and, as such, the subject of agricultural rates would have been shut out from the purview of this or any other Committee. If this Committee is to be shut out, as it must be, from questions of policy, it cannot by any manner of means effect very much in the way of economy. I agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, after all, expenditure mainly depends on policy. But it depends largely also on the influence which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has over his party. I found that out over and over again during the time I was Financial Secretary to the Treasury. It was my duty to be unpopular, because I constantly objected to expenditure which different Members were putting before the Treasury. I remember being hauled before the Chancellor of the Exchequer by a very angry Member of the Cabinet who had a scheme of expenditure which I thought most undesirable. The Chancellor of the Exchequer took the part of the Member of the Cabinet. I then went to the Prime Minister. He did not agree with me as Secretary to the Treasury, and he did not agree with his colleague in the Cabinet, but, as a matter of fact, the expenditure has never been incurred, and I hope it never will. I believe the greatest check you can have over wasteful and extravagant expenditure, which the country cannot afford, looking at the very high rate of taxation at the present time, is that exercised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. The right hon. Gentleman talked about unpopularity. He evidently shrinks from it, but he really ought, when he puts on his robes, to pose as the quarrelling member of the Cabinet. He is bound to exercise a check and control over colleagues who are proposing expenditure, and, in a minor degree, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has a similar duty. He should devote a great deal of his time to seeing whether the proposals brought forward by the various Departments are proposals which ought to be adopted, and, if so, whether it is intended to carry them out in the most economical way.

I observe that we have had no fewer than five Secretaries to the Treasury during the last five years. They change places so often that I doubt whether it has been possible for any one of them to really master his work and have control of his Department, and that must be especially the case when, as sometimes occurs, the Secretary to the Treasury takes on a great deal of other work. I believe he should be a most effective centre of control over all this business, and that both the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary to the Treasury, advised by the Treasury, should effectively check all the expenditure. But we are told we must have some other form of control, and that a Committee of the House of Commons would not only not be useful for such a purpose, but would be absolutely useless. Eight witnesses appeared before a Committee on which I sat in 1903, and they said they had observed that the result of the discussions in Committee of the House of Commons was usually to increase the expenditure of the nation. I am afraid I must say that that is in the main true. But what does the right hon. Gentleman suggest in order to get over the difficulty? What is his proposal? It is one of a very vague character; it is that a Committee should be appointed "to examine and report on such of the Estimates presented to this House as may seem fit." Why did not the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in conjunction with those who assist him in this matter, put down something more precise?

This suggestion was no doubt taken from one of the recommendations contained in the Report of the Committee of 1903. That was a Committee of Inquiry into the control of national expenditure, and to see whether any plan could be advantageously adopted for enabling the House, by a Select Committee or otherwise, to more effectively make examination into and criticise the policy and details of national expenditure. I had the honour of drawing up the Report of that Committee at the request of the Chairman, Sir James Fergusson, and this particular recommendation which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is asking the House to act upon was the recommendation of a small majority of that Committee. I myself voted against it. I want to know whether he is going to adopt that recommendation in toto. This Resolution proposes, "That a Select Committee be appointed to examine and report on such of the Estimates presented to this House as may seem fit to the Committee." I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a few questions. Is it his recommendation that the Committee should be appointed to sit continuously? I understand it is to be appointed experimentally. One recommendation was that a proportion of the members of the Committee should be drawn from the Public Accounts Committee. Is that intended? Sir Francis Mowatt, one of the most distinguished public officers who has ever done duty at the Treasury, said that if the Committee was to do its duty it would have to devote a good deal of time to its work even when the House was not sitting.

Then I should like to ask who is to choose the portion of the Estimates to be examined into; who is to settle in what order they shall be taken? Are the Army Estimates to be taken first, the Navy, or the Civil Service? Would a Committee which is appointed to consider the Civil Service Vote be equally competent to consider the Naval Vote? The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in my opinion, has fathered the scheme of the First Lord of the Admiralty, who fathered the scheme of Mr. Gibson Bowles. Mr. Gibson Bowles, in examination, saw the weakness of the scheme in regard to the composition of the Committee. He said you ought to have more than one Committee; you should have one to deal with the Army, one to deal with the Navy, and a third to deal with the Civil Service. I think this House should be very careful indeed in the choice of such a Committee as is going to be set up by the Government. Further, I want to know whether it is intended by the Government that this House should not in Committee deal with any particular block or class of Estimates until the Committee has reported? Obviously if this House is to wait to vote money either for the Army or Navy or for any branch of the Civil Service until a Committee of this kind has reported, the Committee must have the Estimates presented to it at the earliest possible moment, and it must sit day by day if it is really going to do any good or to make any report. That is one of the initial difficulties of this proposal. Another initial difficulty is that I doubt very much whether the Committee would ever be able to absolve itself from its present functions in any great degree, whether it will be willing to do the duty which every Member of this House is entitled to discharge. Suppose that this Committee is set up and the Government decide that no Vote shall be put down until a Report has been presented by the Committee which sat upon a particular class of Estimates. That might prove a most awkward arrangement and one absolutely intolerable from the point of view of the efficacy of the public service. It might indeed be very difficult for the Committee to issue an Interim Report. Then there would be the question of Minority Reports.

We know nothing about that at present. I hope we may have an opportunity of seeing what is to be the reference to the Committee. I may add that I was opposed years ago to any Committee of this kind, and I am opposed to one now. There was not a single witness, except Mr. Gibson Bowles himself, who came before that Committee who was in favour of this arrangement. Sir Robert Chalmers, the present head of the Treasury, who every- body knows is one of the most experienced, most learned, and one of the best men we have ever had at the Treasury at any time, expressed an opinion entirely opposed to an arrangement of this kind. He said:—

"I certainly would not advise the setting up of a Committee before the event—that is, before the expenditure-. After the event—that is, after the expenditure— within certain bounds and limits, I think it would be of the greatest possible assistance to the Treasury and to the Departments.

"Do you mean by after the event, after the Estimates are prepared?—I mean not in connection with the Estimates, but in connection with the accounts of the actual expenditure.

"That is six or nine months after the expenditure has actually been made?—Yes, but the expenditure as a rule is of the same type from year to year, and the review I understand to be suggested is not a review of what is past and dead and gone, but a review of the application of the principle which will be required for future years also.

"That is to say, current expenditure?—Yes."

I could quote much more from Sir Robert Chalmers as giving an opinion thoroughly hostile to the idea of setting up a Committee before the money was spent and before the Estimates were presented to this House.

Yes, but are you going to neglect official opinion? I should have thought that the official opinion of men like Sir Francis Mowatt and Sir Robert Chalmers, who were the principal witnesses before the Committee, should carry some weight. I do not know why you should call witnesses unless you attach some importance to their evidence. There was not a single official who was not against this proposal. They all said it would weaken the control of the Treasury and of the Committee of the House. I could quote many passages from this book, all showing that these eminent officials thought that what could be done wisely by this House was to set up a Committee which would make a post-mortem examination into one branch after another of the expenditure. I myself reported in favour of that in the Report which I drew up. I am still in favour of it, and I still think a great deal of good might be done in that way. If you set up a Committee to report precedent to expenditure, it must report in a hurry. If you set up a Committee which will take one great branch of expenditure and examine that, such a Committee need not perform its duties in a perfunctory way; it could steadily and slowly go into that expenditure. It could review especially new staffs in different Departments, seeing whether they were necessary, and seeing whether policy was carried out in the most efficient and economic manner. The Treasury, after all, ought to perform that duty, and one of the recommendations of the Committee, in which we were all unanimous, was that the Treasury should from time to time and periodically overhaul every Department in turn, particularly as regards those portions of the Departments which had been newly set up, where new officials had been created, new work given to them, and new expenditure incurred.

I do not know whether the Secretary to the Treasury can tell me whether, since that Report, it has been the habit of the Treasury to overhaul these Departments from chat point of view. If not, I recommend him to ask the Treasury why it has not been done, and to consider whether he could not see that this process should, even now, be begun. I think that kind of post-mortem examination was the kind of examination that recommended itself to the Committee. The majority said that would be an advantage, but they went much further, and said that they wanted something precedent to expenditure. I have given various reasons why I think that a Committee of that kind would not be really operative and would not produce economy. On the other hand, I think it would largely weaken—and the witnesses were agreed very much on that point—the present Treasury control, and largely weaken the control of this House. If a Department is to put their expenditure before the Committee, they may get one party or the other to agree to it. I cannot help thinking that the witnesses were right when they said that if you set up a Committee of that kind you will only weaken the control of the Treasury, and such control of the House itself as does exist at the present time. If the idea of those who signed the memorial is to be carried out then this Committee will have to effect a very enormous task, and it cannot effect that task unless it has before it continuously the heads of the Departments, and particularly the heads of His Majesty's Treasury. That was the idea of the draft Instruction to the Committee which was subscribed to by some hon. Friends of my own in addition to hon. Gentlemen opposite. They were to examine the Estimates, or such branches of them as the Committee might think expedient, and lo report whether in their opinion the estimated expenditure is not more than adequate for the efficient discharge of the duties covered by the Estimate, or Estimates, subjected to examination; whether due care is taken to reduce expenditure on services diminishing in importance, or no longer required; whether the relations between the Departments are economical; and whether the responsible heads of the Departments and the Treasury exercise due control over the Estimates. The Committee will have to spend days in examining the heads of the Treasury to see whether they have exercised proper control in keeping down the expenditure of the other Departments. You will be taking those heads away from other work which they ought to be doing. Even if the Committee sat two days a week, and these heads of Departments had to appear before that Committee for many hours' examination, obviously they cannot be attending their own offices and doing their own work.

Does not the Finance Committee of the county council advise its officials in the same way?

That is an irrelevant interruption. I say that this Committee will waste the time of the officials, and that it will not really effect any adequate saving of the expenditure that is likely to be incurred in the absence of those officials, and any good that may be obtained from the setting up of the Committee will only be obtained if the Committee spends long and laborious hours in inquiring minutely into this expenditure. I say that they can far better do that work by taking the past Estimates, and being given plenty of time for their examination. Then they will be able to see what principles they can evolve from that expenditure, and what good practice they think ought to be evolved from the experience of the past and applied to the Estimates of the next Session or the coming year. I voted for such a post-mortem examination, and I would vote for it again if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would limit his Motion to setting up a Committee to examine into past Estimates. That would be a real and active Committee, which would undertake these labours, and I think some good result might come both from the learning and experience the members of the Committee would obtain, if placed at the service of the House of Commons when it went into Committee in the following year on the branches of those Estimates which had been examined. That is a proposal I could support. This is a vague and shadowy proposal, and a proposal which I am sure will largely militate against the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary to the Treasury, and of those officials on whom they ought to rely for preventing extravagant expenditure. Therefore, this is a proposal against which I shall vote, believing that I do so in the interests of economy and efficiency.

6.0 P.M.

The objections made this afternoon to the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer largely centre round the contention that the Motion, if put into effect, would take away the power of the House of Commons to control the Administration. The inference seems to be that there has been some power in the past in the House of Commons to control the Administration, but if ever there was a time when it existed, it has long since gone by, for it cannot be said that the House of Commons has at the present time control over the administration. It is, indeed, because the House of Commons has lost that control that some of us, myself amongst the number, look with some hope and expectation to the carrying of a Motion such as the one under consideration, believing that it will help to restore to the House of Commons the control that it ought to possess over the administration of the affairs of the State. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) urged, as one objection against the establishment of committees, that these committees would vary in their membership and that there would be no continuity of control. If I may be excused for venturing to differ from so experienced a Member as the right hon. Gentleman, I should like to suggest that if there is one thing that is plain in our present system, it is that there is broken continuity owing to the fact that various Members of the Ministry are moved about frequently, and what happens is that each Department seems to be controlled by a succession of greenhorns. I think the establishment of some form of Committee control might make for continuity of government and permanency, because the Committee would never change all its Members at once. It would always have some Members upon it who had been Members of it before. I am inclined to think this Motion will be bound to go much further than the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he intended it should go. In that respect I agree with the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I do not know why a Committee like this, if it should be set up, should not ultimately come to be something in the nature of a General Finance Committee, and other committees follow later on, in order to develop the plan and bring control over the different Departments. The chief objection that I see to our present system of House of Commons control is that although in theory the Members of the House of Commons are entitled to turn out a Ministry if they do not agree with what it is doing, still that is such a formidable and big thing to do that the actual result is that all minor issues are bound to be sunk, and Members have not really the power to control separate issues owing to the fact that it means turning out the Government, perhaps turning the party out of power, and, may be, a Dissolution as well. When we discuss our Estimates we are supposed to be discussing also the action and policy of the administration. To begin with, in the twenty days at the disposal of the House of Commons, it is quite impossible to cover the whole of the Estimates or to deal with the whole of the administrative Departments of State, and year after year we have this experience, that various Departments, sometimes one, two, or three, have their accounts passed and their Estimates accepted without any opportunity being given to the ordinary Member to challenge by a direct vote any of the administrative actions that the Department itself has carried out during the year. The £14,000,000 which we spend on the Educational Department, all the questions of policy and all the various Departmental actions of the officials concerned, have on many occasions in my knowledge been passed without any opportunity being given to the House of Commons to challenge by a direct vote any of the issues which are concerned, and each year we have the spectacle of £30,000,000 or £40,000,000, and sometimes even more, being passed under the guillotine at the close of the period which is available each Session for consideration of the Estimates, and all the questions involved concerning policy and administrative action are supposed to be endorsed by the passage under the guillotine of the Resolutions confirming the Estimates.

This proposal that we are now considering is interesting to me and others, because we think it will help to dissociate the two entirely separate questions of the propriety of a particular Estimate being so much or so little, and the questions of policy which are wrapped up in the consideration of those Estimates under our present system. It would be the business of a Committee such as is suggested to pass in review those Estimates, and thereby relieve the House of Commons itself largely of the necessity of considering them in detail, and free the House to consider wider questions of policy and the action of the Departments which are not directly concerned with finance or with the Estimates. Therefore I -welcome this Resolution. It does not go far enough for some who, like myself, wish this House to have greater control through its administration of the business of the State, but we think it will develop later on into something bigger and wider. I grant freely that it would be impossible for a Committee to be set up such as is contemplated in this Resolution and for things to remain as they are. Its powers will grow, and I am delighted to think that they will grow. I trust that those powers will not only grow, but that in the end it will be found necessary—I am sure if the Committee carries out the work which it is given to do it will be found necessary—to have different Committees for separate classes of Estimates. It is quite impossible for any one Committee to pass in review the whole of the Estimates of all the Departments of State. It is suggested that they will be taken in sections at a time, but that, I am sure, will be found to be too slow. I should expect and hope it will be found by experience that separate Committees will be formed of a like character to deal with separate departments of the Estimates, and in that way give the House of Commons what it does not now possess, control over the Departments of State. The way that this House carries on its business relating to the discussion of Estimates is a farce. Let us examine it for a minute.

It is assumed by both Front Benches that the House of Commons possesses control and exercises it during the time that the Estimates are being submitted to the House of Commons and endorsed and accepted. What actually happens is that the Minister, in defending his Estimates, makes a speech and some prominent Member of the Opposition will make a speech, and a full-dress Debate takes place. Frequently, while the Debate is going on, the House itself, consisting of 670 Members, would only be represented by thirty or forty. However powerful a case may be made against the Minister's views, however many of those present are actually persuaded, the result is bound to be the same, for, when the bell rings, the hordes come in and vote according as their party Whip tells them, and the merits of the case do not weigh one iota in the actual result. That brings me to what I conceive to be the strongest argument for the establishment of such a Committee as we have considered to-day. Whenever we have a Committee of that kind sitting we may take it for granted that each member of the Committee who votes has been present during the discussion. He has at least heard what has been said on this side or the other, and when his vote comes to be given it is a considered vote. He might have his prejudices, probably he would rather vote with his own side than with the other, but at least he has had the issue placed before him, and it is not a blind vote that he gives. Under the present system the whole of the twenty days that we are supposed to be discussing the Estimates, policy and Departmental action, and calling into account Ministers, and, through them, Departmental staffs, every Division that takes place is swayed by battalions who have heard nothing of the case that has been presented across the floor of the House. I am amazed that if has taken so many generations of this kind of folly to impress itself on Members of the House of Commons. I am sure there can be no defence to it. Over and over again I have heard cases put up regarding some Departmental business which have carried conviction to most of those who have listened to them, and then these battalions come in and vote for the Government, and all that has been said has been like thin air, and has done no good whatever. Surely a great country like this is not going to consent to be governed in that way permanently. For the Mother of Parliaments there should be some way out, and it is because I and others believe that this proposed Committee will help to divide these questions of policy and administration and finance and give power to a certain number of Members who are willing carefully to examine the case regarding finance to carry out that examination faithfully, so that their decision will be worth while the House taking note of, that we approve this Resolution and hope to see the Committee established, and later on, as is found to be advisable, largely extended.

The hon. Member (Mr. Hayes Fisher) offered two different arguments against the formation of the Committee. The first was that nothing ought to take away from the responsibility and power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. With that I quite agree, but the appointments of the Committee will not take away in the remotest degree either from the responsibility of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in the House when my right hon. Friend was speaking. He objected first of all to this Committee because there might be the power of hanging up a particular Estimate, in which case the House might not be able to have a discussion on that Estimate until the Committee had presented their report. May I point out to him that the selection of the Estimates to be discussed is not done by the Government but by the Opposition. If the Opposition were to say to the Government, "We wish to have the Army, or the Navy, or the Civil Service Estimates on such a day," they will be bound to be taken. Under the Standing Orders there are twenty days before 3rd August which have to be devoted to the consideration of the Estimates, and therefore unless the Standing Orders are altered, and unless there is a change in the practice which has always obtained, that the Opposition shall have the choice of saying what Estimates are to be taken, the objection of my right hon. Friend is groundless. I do not think there is any intention on the part of the Government to alter the Standing Orders, or to alter the existing custom that the Opposition shall have the power of choosing the Estimates they desire to have discussed. I think I have proved that that argument is not a strong one. The other argument of my right hon. Friend was that there might be a Minority Report. I do not think a Select Committee can have a Minority Report. I do not remember a Select Committee having a Minority Report.

What the minority always do is to move Clauses in the report. All these Clauses appear in the report and the opinion of the minority is always recorded in that way.

That is not the same thing. I hold in my hand the report of the Public Accounts Committee. I was for five years a member of that Committee, and although we were always am extremely harmonious body, I think we had divisions when the Draft Report was presented by the chairman. But that does not interfere with the report. I hope that this Committee, if set up, wilt also be an extremely harmonious body. I should like to give the reason why I believe the proposed Committee would be advantageous. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough), that it is quite possible it is not going to do very much. I do not believe that it will do any harm, and if it does anything, it will do good. I wish to make perfectly clear the attitude I take up. I attach very great importance to this Committee in no way interfering with the policy of the Government for the time being. I also attach very great importance to the Committee in no way weakening or interfering with Treasury control or the responsibility of Ministers. But if that is clearly understood, then I am in favour of the settling up of this Committee. I am rather afraid that the reference to the Committee is a little too wide. I interrupted the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he was speaking and asked whether he could not put in some words more or less defining the actual powers the Committee are to have. The right hon. Gentleman said he did not think that would be possible. On the-Public Accounts Committee the discussion of policy is excluded, because, as I understand it, that Committee really follow the guidance of the Comptroller and the Auditor-General. Therefore, as he cannot interfere with policy, so in the same way the Public Accounts Committee cannot interfere. During the time I served on the Public Accounts Committee I remember that there were three or four occasions on which Members endeavoured to introduce subjects which were matters of policy. The Chairman of the Committee was then a member of the party opposite, and I remember that on each occasion he ruled that a question of policy could not be gone into, and the Committee at once accepted the ruling. I take my stand on the assumption that exactly the same procedure will be followed in the Committee proposed to be set up. Upon that assumption I am in favour of setting it up, for this reason.

The Debates which have taken place in Committee of Supply during the last fourteen or fifteen years, though to a certain extent valuable, have not really been Debates which have in any way criticised expenditure going on. The Debates consist of two sorts of criticism. The first is -a most legitimate kind of criticism in relation to grievances. Grievances are brought before Committee of Supply, and that is the only method which for many years the House of Commons has had to get their grievances remedied. In Committee of Supply there are a considerable number of Members who have grievances to bring up. These grievances form one class of questions which come before Committee of Supply to be discussed. The other class has reference to -questions whether or not a certain amount for wages, or certain sums of money, are not too small, and whether they ought not to be increased. When these matters have been discussed it is generally eleven o'clock, and consequently no further opportunity is given to Members who desire to draw attention to the economic aspect of the subjects discussed. No doubt that arises, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out, to a great extent from the fact that a very large number of Members on both sides of the House are really not disciples of economy. They really are not averse, because the country is not averse unfortunately as the House is at present constituted, to extravagant expenditure so long as they themselves do not have to pay for it. There is no class averse to extravagant expenditure so long as it does not come out of its pocket. Therefore, unfortunately, I think the tendency is to be extravagant, and as the constituencies are extravagant so in proportion are the Members on both sides of the House. It is quite impossible with the time at our disposal, and with the opportunities of getting called during a Debate in Committee of Supply, to go into the Estimates—it does not matter whether they are Army or Navy Estimates or anything else—as we would do on a committee connected with a business undertaking. All the officials on such an undertaking are brought before you with respect to certain items of expenditure. You must go into them, and ask questions upon them; but you cannot do that in Committee of Supply. I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said how many Members he would have on the Committee. The Public Accounts Committee consist of fourteen. I do not think the proposed Committee should be bigger than that. They should be able to call the heads of Departments before them.

I do not share the apprehension of my right hon. Friend that this is going to take the heads of Departments altogether away from their business. He will agree with me that the Public Accounts Committee does good work. It meets twice a week, and the heads of Departments come before it. In this case, it will only be the head of one Department, or perhaps two Departments, in the course of each Session who will be required to attend for a couple of hours. That will give the Committee an opportunity of really knowing how the money is spent. Supposing they find something which really requires the consideration of the House, all they will be able to do is to report. They will have no power to stop anything. All that has been put forward by my right hon. Friend as to the Committee disturbing and stopping the business of the nation is, if I may venture to say so, ludicrous. The Committee will not have a day on which its Report can be presented to the House of Commons for discussion unless the powers that be on the Treasury Bench give a particular day. I do think the suggestion that this is going to revolutionise everything, if you come to look into the matter is rather absurd. The Committee will enable Members on both sides of the House to look into the Estimates. I do not see why there should be any difficulty in obtaining information as to the Estimates. The Public Accounts Committee has always been one of the best Committees in the House. The proposed Committee may not do very much, but it will give an opportunity for Members to know what is taking place in a particular Department in a particular year. It may give the House an opportunity for discussing the Report, and even if it does not, the Report can always be read, and therefore the disciples of economy will have an opportunity at any rate of using the Report in order to point out what is being spent by a Department. My right hon. Friend said the Committee will have to deal with questions of efficiency and adequacy, and he asked how can you deal with efficiency or adequacy unless you discuss policy? Taking the case of a destroyer, he asked, "How can you say that £300.000 spent on the vessel is the right sum? You may say that is not enough." In a conversation with my right hon. Friend, I said that I did not quite agree with him that that was a question of policy, and he replied, "Oh, that is all very well, but supposing you say it has been decided that there are to be so many destroyers and no more, that is a question of policy. Then, supposing with regard to the particular Class A on which you are spending £300,000, an hon. Member were to say that he knows a type of vessel which is very much more useful and which can be got at £250,000, that is a question of efficiency." If I were Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, I should rule it in order to say whether £300,000 was the right sum to spend on torpedo boat A, supposing that was the class necessary to be got, but if any hon. Member were to say, "I know another class that you can get cheaper," I would say, "That is a question of policy which the Committee cannot discuss. The question you have to consider is whether you can get Class A for £300,000 or £250,000." That is a very good thing to consider, because if you read through the Report of the Public Accounts Committee you will find many cases where tenders have not been obtained, and there is even one case in Ireland where a contract was given without competition, and where no written contract was obtained at all. Apparently it was arranged by word of mouth. These are things worth ascertaining, not two years after they have taken place, but in the year they take place.

Does not the Public Accounts Committee exist for the purpose to which the hon. Baronet has referred?

I would point out to my Noble Friend that we consider the Report of the Public Accounts Committee two years after the expenditure has taken place. If you will look at this Report you will see that it deals with the year ending 31st March, 1911. We want something a little less antiquated than that. My right hon. Friend has made a very much more opportune remark. He said that all this which I am foreshadowing could be dealt with before it has occurred. It is because we want to stop it that we are anxious to have this step taken. If we find it is the proposal of the Department to spend £300,000 on a certain thing and we know that we can get that identical thing—that is all-important, for we must not alter policy— for £290,000, and we can say before that expenditure is incurred that in our opinion this can be done, then we are rendering a service to the country. That is the reason why I support this Committee. I hope if the right hon. Gentleman is successful in carrying this Motion that he will remember my suggestions. Perhaps he ought to do so now, and amend the Motion so that it shall be clearly laid down in the reference what powers the Committee are to have. That will save a very great deal of future trouble. If everyone knows what powers the Committee have it will prevent people coming down and saying, we did not understand this or that. It is very much simpler to know what powers you are going to have when you enter into the business which you are going to carry on, and I. trust that the right hon. Gentleman will meet us in that way.

Before I start the main subject of this Debate, I would like to refer to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), who found fault with the Chancellor of the Exchequer for wishing for more criticism of expenditure. It seems to me a perfectly reasonable thing, and a very sensible thing, for a Minister to come to this House and to say, "This is the expenditure which, after consideration, we think is necessary in the national interests; but if any one of you Gentlemen can show me that we are making a mistake and that we are putting forward a greater Estimate than is necessary, I shall be very much obliged to you, and we will correct our. Estimates accordingly." It is a very absurd idea, which seems to have got about that a Minister is never to be criticised by anyone, and that no one is to think of the possibility of any Member of the House showing that he is wrong. I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is quite right in inviting hon. Members to offer suggestions in a friendly spirit. The right hon. Gentlemen who spoke against this proposal have not in any way attempted to impair the premises with which the Chancellor opened his Motion. They have not attempted to deny that there was an expenditure of public money as to which there is no effective criticism whatever. As I understand the right hon. Gentleman opposite, his view is that the state of affairs which exists ought to exist for all eternity, that there is no remedy for it, that it is hopeless, and has got to go on just as it is. Some of us do not agree with that. I do not believe it is possible for any individual Minister, such as the Secretary of State for War or the First Lord of the Admiralty—I am referring to the offices and not to those who at present occupy them—thoroughly to go into all the details of the vast expenditures of the Department over which he presides. When you consider that he has got not only to look after his own Department, but also vast branches of general public departments, and that he has got to render great public services in other directions, it is quite clear that small details of administration in his Department cannot possibly be looked into by a political Minister. If anybody says that it is done, I am afraid that I should not be convinced.

As to the officials, I hope that I shall not be thought to speak with the slightest disrespect of any official of any character, but I have had experience of officials in other walks of life, and I believe that it has never been the experience of any man who has managed a large business that officials have the same anxiety to economise as those persons who are more directly responsible for finding the money. And there is a very obvious reason for it— a reason which I do not advance as reflecting discredit on anybody but as a fact. What is necessarily the principal motive in the mind of an official? It is that he is not to be blamed because his services have been inefficiently rendered. He would naturally wish to make his services as efficient as he possibly can. That is a perfectly laudable motive in the minds of officials, but it may also be quite obvious that it will be better for everybody if the services were not quite so efficient and were less expensive, and if the margin of safety of the officials was rather less and the expenditure was considerably less. That is an experience which everybody has. Officials come forward, and to make themselves safe propose to spend more money than is really necessary for the purpose. I am quite certain that this proposal is not going in any way to hamper Treasury control. We have got the best evidence of that, as everybody who has read the Memorandum knows. The Memorandum was drawn up with the concurrence of Lord Welby and Sir Francis Mowatt, who were two of the most experienced of Treasury officials in recent times. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher) I think spoke in commendation of Sir Francis Mowatt's great qualities. I should like him to realise that Sir Francis Mowatt did approve of the proposals put forward by the memorial.

Then there was a singular departure from the whole of his evidence as recorded in those papers.

The memorial was drawn up six or seven years after the evidence was given, and things had changed, and changed steadily for the worse, in the interval. I may now give a few instances of the points where I think criticism and discussion in this House have utterly failed. Take the case of the Navy Estimates. Every discussion that I have been present at on that subject dealt with one of two subjects: either an expression of opinion that the number of capital ships-was too great or was not enough—that is. a matter of high policy, of course—or an expression of opinion, largely put forward by Members representing certain constituencies, that certain persons in whom they are interested, generally as their constituents, were not sufficiently paid. I may now refer to one or two matters that have not been discussed. Some three or four-years ago, I forget exactly which year it was, the Admiralty, as many people in the House knew, made a most improvident contract for the purchase of coal. They bought coal at a time of the year when every man who had any knowledge of the-purchase of coal could have told them they were making a thoroughly bad bargain. They bought it in November, and by January or December prices had gone down several shillings a ton. Every one knew that was going to happen. That was-never discussed in this House at all. Hundreds of thousands of pounds went on that. I myself on more than one occasion had wished to discuss the question of the price paid for Admiralty steam tugs. Tugs of the kind employed by the Admiralty generally cost about £34,000, and they do not differ materially from the tugs employed for ordinary commercial purposes-The finest steam tug employed in Liverpool costs just under £10,000. That was some little time ago when prices were cheap. Although I know that in many things these Government tugs are not quite the same as ordinary commercial tugs, yet with the best efforts I could make I have never been able to price them at more than £20,000, and I would like to know then where the difference in cost comes in.

We have never had an opportunity of knowing whether or not the cost of these gigantic battleships is too much or not. It has never been decided whether we do in fact get our "Dreadnoughts" in the cheapest possible way. I am quite certain that among all commercial people who have dealings with Government Departments there is a widespread belief that there is a gigantic waste of public money. I never met a man in business who dealt with a Government Department who did not believe that there was a vast waste. That is the general belief. It may be absolutely without foundation. I know that general beliefs are by no means always right, but I say that the House should have a fairly easy opportunity of investigating it. I think I am right in saying that a Committee now in existence dealing with printing and stationery saved over £50,000 a year alone by its investigations. This Committee, as has been clearly laid down, is to be directed entirely to waste. You want to keep off policy altogether. That was frankly recognised by the memorialists, for whom I am entitled to speak as I had the honour of presenting the memorial to the Prime Minister. It is not any object of ours to deal with policy. We only want to establish some efficient system to enable the House of Commons to see that they get 20s. worth of goods for every £1 that we spend. If, as the right hon. "Gentleman thinks, that the Committee may not do very much, yet suppose that the Committee were only successful in effecting economy to the extent of 1 per cent.—and I think most of us do honestly believe that there is at least that margin under the present system—that would run into something like £1,750,000. That is a very considerable sum, and I believe that my right hon. Friend would be very pleased to accept it. It would materially relieve his Budget and he might even make some concessions in taxation. In fact, I think with £1,750,000 a good many people might hold out alluring programmes to their constituencies as to what they would do in the way of reducing taxation.

Then the right hon. Gentleman suggested that there would be great difficulty in obtaining Members to serve on such a Committee. I do not agree with that view at all. I am quite certain that there are a great many hon. Gentlemen in this House who are not particularly efficient as orators, and perhaps take no prominent part in the Debates in this Chamber, who -would be extremely glad to serve in this way and endeavour to benefit their constituents, by effecting behind the scenes some economy in public expenditure. I am rather glad that the reference has been drawn in fairly general terms because we must concede that the House if it to-day passes this Resolution will be starting an experiment, and I think it is of great importance that we should get as strong a Committee as possible in the first instance and rather encourage them to feel their way. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham made one point as to the danger of having Estimates held back while waiting for Reports of the Committee. I think it is quite obvious that some of the Estimates cannot possibly be held back for any purpose whatever. They must be sanctioned by the House. The memorialists fully realised this, and if the House will permit me, I will read a paragraph of the memorial which deals fully with this precise point:—

I oppose this proposal of the Government, and if no one else goes into the Lobby against it I shall do so. I believe I was one of those who signed the memorial to the Prime Minister to appoint this Committee, but, after hearing what the duties of the Committee are to be, as defined by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and having listened to the speeches made in favour of it, including the speech of the Chancellor and of my hon. Friend beside me (Sir F. Banbury), I am disposed to think that in signing the memorial I and others who are probably in the same position, did not know what we were letting ourselves in for.

I thought I did. I think the hon. Gentleman himself was one of those concerned in getting up the memorial, and that he brought it to me. I know that at the time I intended to sign it, but certainly all I have heard since has convinced me that the way in which the object of the memorial is being carried out is a mistake. The whole case of those who have supported the appointment of the Committee this afternoon has resolved itself into an indictment of the composition and machinery of the present House of Commons. The hon. Member for Bradford made a very interesting speech, which expressed the point of view of the Socialist and Devolutionist in legislation. The hon. Gentleman followed the Chancellor of the Exchequer in agreeing with him that at the present time this House, as a body, has practically no control over administration, and no control over finance. No one is more inclined to agree with that than I am. I quite agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in what he says, and with what was said by my hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury), that this House has practically no control either over administration or finance. But are you really going to alter that condition of things by the appointment of this Committee? If you do alter it, is it going to be in the best interests of the machinery of government? I hold the view that the more delicate the machinery of government becomes, the more difficult it is for this House, when in Committee, to adequately control that machinery. I can conceive that nothing will lead to greater inefficiency in administration than that the average Member of the House, when in Committee, should attempt to control administration. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that this House, when in Committee, had none of that kind of control over its business that the directors of a company have over the business of that company. What possible analogy is there between the directors of a company and this House when sitting in Committee? No company in its senses would ever appoint 670 directors to control its business, and I think many companies would hesitate before appointing many Members of this House to control their business. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad to have evoked those universal cheers.

No one, however, would dream of appointing 670 directors of any company, and I do not think the analogy of the right hon. Gentleman holds good. There might be an analogy between a committee of shareholders and a Committee of this House. The point to be considered is that as the machinery of government becomes more intricate, and as its bulk increases, it becomes more difficult for this House as a House to control it. Are you going to control it more adequately by setting up this Committee? If the Committee is to have real power, are you not going in a direction which is somewhat dangerous? I may mention this fact, that one of the principal agitations going on at the present time in France is against the power possessed by the Budget Committee in that country. The Budget Committee of France has possessed great powers during the last ten years, and it now practically controls the Finance Minister of that country. I may mention a matter which is somewhat personal to myself, that I contributed to a French review a synopsis of opinion on this subject, and there was also an article by Mons. Poincaré, who took a very strong line against the great powers possessed by the Budget Committee in France over not only the House, but over the responsible Minister. I believe that this proposal, if it were to be effective at all, would lead to the very state of affairs which has done so much harm in France. I think it is overwhelmingly shown that it is impossible to disentangle the question of adequacy and the question of policy. My hon. Friend said that the Committee might be useful in deciding as to whether a certain class of destroyer, A or B, should be built, the one at £250 or the other at £300; but I would point out that there can be no question on which is required more expert knowledge than the question of the construction of a destroyer, and I repeat that there is no means of disentangling the question of adequacy and policy. I would call attention to the evidence of Sir Francis Bertie on this question. [The Noble Lord read an extract from a report.]

That statement was made in 1902, and if the Government officials in that year were doing double the amount of work— and at that time Parliament did not sit for something like ten months in the year —there can be no question that the amount of work they have to get through now is double again what it was at that time. Are you going to put this additional work upon them, this great and harassing duty of having to answer the questions of this Committee, unless by so doing you are going to carry out a real reform? I do not think it will carry out a real reform, and I think what is now proposed will trench on the work of the Public Accounts Committee. I think the work of that Committee might be greatly improved if its machinery were adequate. If the Government would allow the Public Accounts Committee's Report to be discussed every year, instead of once in four years, it might not be necessary to set up this Committee at all. I do not think the speeches in favour of this proposal have shown any great thought or consideration on the part of those who made them as to what will be the result of setting up this Committee. Some of those who support the Motion wish to see a kind of devolution of the work of this House, and those who support it on this side of the House, like my hon. Friend the Member for the City, I think would do better to support a proposal for the improvement of the machinery of the Public Accounts Committee and the discussion of its Report every year.

I beg to move, as an Amendment, to leave out the words "and report on" ["to examine and report on such"], and to add, at the end of the Question, the words "and to report what, if any, economies, consistent with the policy implied in those Estimates, should be effected therein."

I only desire to intervene on one or two points in regard to which I think agreement has been generally reached on both sides of the House. It has, I think, been generally felt that the terms of reference to this Committee are too wide, seeing that it is possible for the Committee not only to consider policy, but also to make recommendations as to increased expenditure. In regard to policy as well as in regard to increase of expenditure the powers of the Committee ought to be restricted; therefore, I desire to move an Amendment, which I hope will be accepted, to restrict and limit the Committee on both those two points. The arguments for excluding policy have been dealt with already at great length. The argument for excluding the possibility of recommending increases has hardly been touched upon, though the matter was referred to by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain). Any one who has attended Debates on Post Office Estimates for the last six years will realise that the pressure is always in favour of increased cost. Demands are always made for improvements, the effect of which would be to raise the cost of Post Office Services. We want the Committee to be an instrument of economy and there should therefore be some restriction of their powers, not only as to-policy, but as to increased expenditure.

7.0 P.M.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I think this Motion as amended will be far better than as proposed. In spite of the severe strictures of the Noble Lord I have some sympathy with the Motion as proposed, and more with the Motion as amended. After all, are not the refusals to make some proposals counsels of despair. We have been told, and it seems to be generally admitted on both sides, that this House is really incompetent, or very incompetent, in dealing with these matters of the Estimates. When we have Debates, on Estimates they are generally on matters of policy and not on economy. The reductions moved are not real reductions, but moved in order to raise matters of policy. Therefore the power of this House as the trustee of the money of the nation, and as the guarantor of economy is really a colossal piece of hypocrisy, and is of very little value at all. My Noble Friend compared the House to a body of directors—

I thought the Noble Lord said that nobody would entrust the work of a company) to so large a body of directors as 670.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer compared us to a body of directors. I said it was a most unfortunate analogy, and that no one would entrust 670 persons on the directorate of any company, and secondly I thought very few Members of this House would be entrusted with an important business concern.

I regret that the Noble Lord "has such a poor opinion of the business capacity of his colleagues. The objection a few years ago was that the House had too many and not too few directors of companies. Anyhow, whatever may be said about the present system, it is not a very sensible system, since under it, with all the Ministerial responsibility and with all the criticism by this House, there has been this enormous increase and expenditure, and the almost doubling of that expenditure in twenty years. Under those conditions I should have thought that the ordinary sensible thing would be for this House to make some attempts to devolve this duty on some small Committee which would be far more capable of dealing with these questions than the House at large. As regards the question of economy, when reductions are moved nobody who supports the Government can ever vote in favour of any reduction except at the expense of throwing out the Government. He may be perfectly convinced that the reduction and that economy is necessary; but he has to choose between that and throwing out the Government, and very naturally and properly he votes for the security of his own Government. That is a matter which I should have thought might be to some extent altered. If those matters were brought before the Committee they would be able to suggest reductions and economies, and the Minister would be able to accept them without that loss of face and that loss of position which he must undergo if he is to accept reductions suggested in the House. In that way, at least, there might be the road opened to some sort of reduction. My Noble Friend said that it is a very delicate machine, that we have a very large number of officials, that the range of government has enormously increased, and he again lapsed into a counsel of despair, and says it is far more difficult for the House of Commons to criticise and control expenditure than it was ten or twelve years ago. I daresay it is; but it makes upon my mind exactly the opposite impression to that which it has on his. The larger the range of government the more reason there is, and the more range and possibility there is, for some sort of economy in its administration. It is rather a new doctrine to me to learn that it is the anxiety of high officials constantly to produce economy. On the contrary, I should have thought they were so much engaged in the work of administration that it is difficult for them in that work to effect much economy.

As regards Ministers the work of administration and the number and range of duties thrown upon the Executive Government has increased so much that they are really absorbed by those questions of policy, and it is impossible for them to give that time in the scrutiny of matters of detail whereby even small sums of money might be saved, but which time might be given by a Committee dealing with the work. Fears have been expressed that the Committee might try and take cognisance of some question of policy. That, I think, is the idea suggested by the hon. Member who spoke for the Labour party. If that be so, I should certainly myself be against the suggestion of this Committee; but those questions of policy are so wide, and they occupy so much time of Ministers, that I believe, myself, you would rather be increasing the responsibility of Ministers and concentrating the responsibility of Ministers if you confine them to those questions. You do not increase the responsibility of men by simply enlarging the range of their duties. Rather do you increase their responsibility by reducing the range of their duties. I quite admit there is a difficulty in separating the policy from the way in which that policy is going to be carried out. A Committee of this sort must feel its way in the matter. No doubt at first it might attempt to extend its powers beyond what those powers ought to be; but in course of time it will come to separate questions of policy and questions of economy, and might on that question do a, very great deal of useful work. Anyhow, I do not see that it is likely to do much harm. It is one of those administrative experiments which may be done away with if it is proved to be unsuccessful. It is not like the passing of some measure which cannot be undone once it is passed. It is one of those matters which might easily be experimented on for four or five years, and if it is found that it becomes, as some hon. Members fear, merely an instrument for recording the views of Ministers, then I agree it will be worse than useless. If it shows any sort of independence, and if it saves even a few thousands of pounds, then, considering the vast and constantly increasing growth of expenditure, I think that any sort of Committee that tends to the reduction of that expenditure ought to be welcomed and supported.

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer must, I think, be very much gratified with the reception which this proposal has met from the House. It has been brought forward in response to a very numerously signed memorial, but it has met with little thorough-going opposition from any of the speakers, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) and the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton). Everyone who has spoken has been in favour of an Estimates Committee of one kind or another. I know that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher) took up a good part of his speech in an attack upon the Committee as he conceived it likely to be, but he wound up by describing an Estimates Committee which he thought might serve a useful purpose, and which, I think, is the very purpose the Government have in minds in the Committee they are setting up to fulfil. I was one of those who signed the memorial asking the Government to set up this Committee, and as I had the honour of serving for a good many years on the Public Accounts Committee, I venture to trouble the House with the reasons which led me to think that this Estimates Committee might cover the part of the financial field which is very imperfectly covered at present by the machinery of the House. We have been discussing the checks there are on expenditure. My right hon. Friend said that the greatest check is, and ought to be, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, but they are perpetually beset with appeals for expenditure, and if the House depended solely on them I think we might give up any idea we had as to control of expenditure, and leave the matter wholly to the Government. It has been singular to me to notice how seldom in this Debate, I think once only, the great check which this House possesses in connection with economy has been mentioned. The real check which we have upon expenditure in the country is that of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and he has, I think, been mentioned only twice in the whole course of this Debate. My right hon. Friend mentioned him once in passing, and I am not certain whether he was subsequently mentioned once.

The one function of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is to examine the expenditure of the country. He is an official independent of the Government of the day. He cannot be removed by the Government of the day. He is there to represent the House of Commons in scrutinising the expenditure of money voted by this House. It is his duty to call the attention of the House not only to waste of public money, but to every matter arising out of his examination of finance to which he thinks the attention of Parliament should be directed. The Comptroller and Auditor-General makes his report to the Public Accounts Committee. Here again I venture to think that the House devotes very little time indeed to the consideration of the Reports of the Public Accounts Committee, and is hardly aware of how strong a check upon the expenditure of the Departments is to be found in the Public Accounts Committee. I am very sorry that in this Debate we have not hitherto had the advantage of a speech from my hon. and gallant Friend the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Colonel Williams). I have been waiting with anxiety to hear what he would have to say in regard to this proposal to set up an Estimates Committee. I do desire to direct the attention of the House to this fact in regard to the working of the Public Accounts Committee. My hon. and gallant Friend made an interruption to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I really am not surprised. He was driven into it, for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed hardly to realise the great powers which this House entrusts to the Public Accounts Committee. He seemed to me, very singularly, to try to tie us down in a way which I, in my service on that Committee, have never regarded myself as tied down, and which I do not think is borne out at all by past Reports of the Committee or by the Treasury Minutes upon those Reports. Nothing is commoner in the procedure of that Committee than for us to call attention either to excesses of expenditure over the amounts voted or to under-expenditure. If there is under-expenditure, we usually carry the matter a step further and say, "There has been an under-expenditure this year; have you taken less in the Estimates for the following year?" I have certainly never felt that, in putting that question to a witness, I was going beyond the functions of the Committee, nor have I been called to order by the Chairman for making such an inquiry. But when we get to the Estimates of the current year we have almost reached the limit to which the Public Accounts Committee can carry us. We are apt to be told that the Estimate is based upon the policy that is presented to the House of Commons, and that if we question the Estimate for the current year the proper place to do it is in the House of Commons itself.

It is just here, I think, that our financial system really breaks down. In regard to the money that has been spent, the examination of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is very real. It ought to be remembered, moreover, that that examination is not delayed till a year or eighteen months after the money has been spent; it is always going on. The Comptroller and Auditor-General is always communicating with the Departments, asking for explanations of expenditure, and drawing attention to different matters. Therefore, the House must not be under the impression that its control begins when the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reaches the Table. But we reach a point when we are told to make our complaints or criticisms in the House on the Estimates themselves, and it is just there that this House shows itself absolutely incapable under its present proceduce of giving that minute scrutiny to these financial matters which I think is absolutely called for. What happens on the Estimates regularly and, I think, properly? When you have a Debate on the Foreign Office Estimates, you do not discuss the expenditure of the Foreign Office; you cannot do so. It would be a waste of time on the part of the House if it devoted itself to criticism on questions, large or small, of expenditure. What the House devotes itself to is some great foreign question, such as the question of Persia or some other question imminent at the time. That is natural and proper. The number of days in the year is very limited. Our opportunities for dealing with Foreign Affairs are not very numerous. Therefore, quite naturally, in such Debates, we turn to matters of policy. What I say in regard to Foreign Affairs applies equally to Colonial or Civil Service matters; it applies all round. The House does not, as a matter of fact, and I think could not use- fully, do the Committee work which ought to be done in regard to the Estimates.

Therefore, realising more than most Members who have taken part in this Debate, I think, the importance of the work done by the Public Accounts Committee, and the strong control exercised by the Comptroller and Auditor-General on behalf and in the name of this House, I nevertheless believe that there is a part of our financial field not covered by the present system, and I am hopeful that this new Estimates Committee will fill that gap. I do not want this Committee to take matters of policy out of the hands of this House. I do not want it to extend its operations too widely. I want it to give careful scrutiny to the Estimates from the different Departments while they are still Estimates—before they have become expenditure, which is fully dealt with by the Public Accounts Committee. I want the Estimates while they are Estimates to be scrutinised by a careful Committee, such as that which the House already possesses in the Public Accounts Committee. I believe that such a Committee will serve a very useful service, and that it is precisely such a Committee the Government intend to set up. I hope the Committee is not going to trench on matters of policy or relieve any Member of the Government of any part of Ministerial responsibility. The head of a Department must remain responsible for the Estimates of that Department. I hope that no attempt is to be made to lessen the Treasury control over expenditure. That was certainly not the object I had in view in signing the memorial, and I do not think it is the object the Government have in making this proposal. If it is a Committee to scrutinise the Estimates while they are still Estimates, and to bring outside criticism to bear on the Departmental or Governmental view, it will be very useful. I hope that, following the example of the Public Accounts Committee, we shall always have a Member of the Opposition, of financial ability and standing, as Chairman of the Estimates Committee. That is exceedingly important. Such a Committee, formed of Members devoting their time to criticising the Estimates as they are brought forward, can fill an important gap in our financial field and render valuable service to the cause of economy.

It is due solely to the accident of Debate that I have not spoken earlier. The hon. Member for Appleby (Mr. Leif Jones) said that the value of the Public Accounts Committee was largely due to the fact that there is an officer of the House charged all the year round with the examination of the accounts of the past year. If this Estimates Committee is to do anything at all, it must have a similar officer of its own— an officer of the House, not an officer of the Government—with a staff. I would not envy the task of fourteen Members of this House if they had the Estimates thrown before them, not knowing where to look, not knowing which were the really important things, and very likely groping in the dark for half a day before they found something important, simply because they had no trained adviser to guide them in their work. If you set up this Committee you will really have three Estimates Committees. First of all, there is the Cabinet. We have heard a good deal about the autocracy of the Cabinet. But why are Votes in Committee of Supply always counted as Votes of Censure? It is because of the Ministerial responsibility of the representative of the Government who brings forward the Vote. If the Vote is defeated, it is a defeat of the Minister, and the Minister or the Cabinet resigns. The chief Committee on Estimates is the Cabinet, and, after all, the Cabinet is returned by the country for a specific purpose. The hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. Jowett) spoke of the desire of the country for economy, and said that this Government were returned to practise economy. But there is very little of that heard from the benches opposite. If that party were pledged to economy, I should have thought that they could have forced their wish upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If not, their bounden duty is that they should leave the House, that they should say, "We are pledged to economy, and if we cannot get it we will go back to our constituents and tell them so."

The Noble Lord below me (Earl Winter-ton) expressed a wish that the Report of the Public Accounts Committee should be discussed once in four years. It has been discussed every year except one for some years past. It was to have been discussed this afternoon if this Motion had not taken up the time. But what do Members care about it when it is discussed? They do not care a bit. The Chancellor of the Exchequer referred to the Committee of 1903. One of the recommendations of that Committee is adopted in part; but the recommendation that one of the Supply days in each year should be given to the discus- sion of the Report of the Public Accounts Committee has been entirely ignored. It has never been carried out yet. The hon. Member for the Appleby Division spoke about the impossibility of going into details when the Foreign Office Vote was under consideration. What is the remedy for that? Not to leave off discussing questions of policy, but to give another day for the discussion of details. If the House really wanted to exercise economy they would not be satisfied with twenty-two or twenty-three days in Supply. We talk about grievances preceding Supply. But the time when grievances are supposed to be raised is before the Speaker leaves the Chair. That is when grievances precede Supply. When once the Speaker is out of the Chair, we are supposed to discuss details and not policy. It has been very much lost sight of that there are three stages in the finance of this House, namely Estimates, Expenditure, and Accounting. The Estimates must be the work of the responsible Minister of the day. I have referred to the Cabinet as being the chief Estimates Committee. There is another Estimates Committee, namely, the Treasury. There is an Estimates' clerk in the Treasury, whose business it is to scrutinise and coordinate the Estimates, and to report necessary or unnecessary additions. Here I should like to put in a word against the idea, which seems to prevail, of jealousy of the public officials. Having during the last few years had some opportunity of seeing their work, I can safely say that the Treasury are much more jealous of expenditure than any Committee of this House would ever be. The whole body of Civil servants are very keen indeed to carry out that for which they have been chosen, to discharge their duties, to see that the nation's funds are administered to the best advantage, and that the nation's work is properly carried out. They are a very hard-worked, a very ill-paid, and a very zealous body of officials, taken as a whole.

It is said that this House wants to discuss the details of the Estimates. What are those details? How far are you going to discuss them? Suppose this Committee sits down to consider the Navy Estimates. The cost of torpedo boats has been mentioned. You will have to go into the cost of manufacture; you must go to the dockyards and see for yourselves. Such work would very likely do great good, but you are not going to do it in a fortnight, or in two or three months, or in time to present the Estimates to the House. Therefore it seems to me that to call it an Estimates Committee is entirely wrong. I agree with the right hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Hayes Fisher) that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would set up a Committee on Expenditure, to inquire into the expenditure of the country, making it an ad hoc Committee from time to time, there are many Members who would be extremely valuable on such a Committee. One could speak for the Navy, another for the Army, another for the Post Office, and so on, and they could bring to bear very valuable outside trained experience upon this or that manufacture, or upon this or that Department. Such a Committee as that would, I believe, be of the highest advantage. A Committee of Estimates, as it is called, I am entirely opposed to, because, as I say, it will, and must, take away the responsibility—first, of the Treasury, and, secondly, of the Minister. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford drew an excellent picture of this Committee sitting and reporting to the House. What will the House do with that Report? Will they accept it or will they reject it? If they accept it, out goes the Minister, out goes the Government—that is, if they accept it, or any very large recommendation! Therefore the work of the Committee will have very little effect; or the House will accept the Report of the Committee and will thereby overthrow Ministerial responsibility. There are two or three things more I should like to say, but the hour is late, and other hon. Members, I have no doubt, want to speak.

I only hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not expect the Public Accounts Committee to have attention called to their Reports at this hour in the evening. I do not think that hon. Members realise that the Motion on the Paper ought to be worded, "That the Reports of the Public Accounts Committee 'for 1911' be now taken into consideration." In regard to what was said by the Noble Lord just now as to hastening the work of the Public Accounts Committee, I may say that these Reports were ready last June. I am afraid to say how often I have been to the Prime Minister and begged for a day for their discussion during last Session and the Autumn Session. The right hon. Gentleman was always with me, and backed up the desire of the Public Accounts Com- mittee to have the matters discussed, but he found it practically impossible to give us time. The question is one for the House, which apparently at present does not care. If the Prime Minister knew that one of the days that the House wanted most was for the discussion of the Reports of the Public Accounts Committee the present or any Prime Minister would give the time at once. The right hon. Gentleman knows that the House does not care. The House ought to have real control.

I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will take care to put the matter strongly to the Prime Minister, so that we may have another portion of a day—not a whole day—though it ought really to be a whole day—if the House really cared. If we get that discussion the House will see something of how the Committee deals with small details, small things and large things as well, and the real check upon expenditure that the Public Accounts Committee has. After all, there is a deal of human nature in the world, as Artemus Ward said, and fear is one of the greatest helps in keeping men straight. The fear of the Public Accounts Committee and the very searching examination that takes place there does a great deal to keep in the path of rectitude the members of the Civil Service. May I say, in conclusion, that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer can make this Committee responsible to take a close view of the Estimates, and to go really and thoroughly into the whole of these amounts, not merely the figures, but to the very bottom of things, and probe them deeply, two things will follow: Hon. Members will see that the permanent officials are overworked, and they will also be amazed to find how well the work of the country is done, how new processes are adopted, how carefully and well the work is done, how good the machinery for the work is, and how efficient the workers of the State really are.

I would like, not to continue the general discussion upon the Motion, but to deal with the Amendment which I understand has been moved during the last few minutes. I should have preferred that the Resolution should have been in rather wider terms, but, at the same time, having given to the House the views of the Government and what questions in our opinion ought to go to a Committee of this kind, I hardly care to resist the incorporation of these words in the Resolution. After all, these words practically adopt the words which the memorialists themselves put in their memorial, which says the Committee shall deal, "not with policy, but with expenditure only."

What some of us are afraid of is that if this limitation is put in it may be interpreted as dealing with the policy of certain Departments. Certain Departments, for instance, only invite tenders and prices from a certain number of firms. Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that questions of Departmental policy will not in any way be interpreted as excluded from the operations of the Committee?

I have no hesitation in expressing an opinion upon that. I should have thought that these were the very questions that the Committee could deal with. We consider the word "policy" to cover educational policy—denomina schools for instance. But the instance that my hon. Friend has given is one that I should have thought would be interpreted as one of the things to be dealt with by this Committee. Hon. Members, I think, are unduly alarmed at the inclusion of these words. They are almost the very words of the memorialists themselves. They certainly carry out the instructions given to me by the Prime Minister when he asked me to move this Resolution on his behalf. Another point: After all this Committee is appointed for a year, and by way of experiment. Next year if we find that too narrow interpretations have been placed on these words, then certainly it will be competent for the House of Commons to alter these words or to leave them out. I hope if a very narrow interpretation is placed on them the House of Commons will do so. If questions of the character such as the hon. Gentleman has spoken of are ruled out we will put in words that will make it impossible that very important questions like these should be kept outside. I hope after that explanation hon. Members will see their way to support this Amendment, which I believe commends itself to right hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side.

I would just like to say a few words, for I think the Amendment is certainly an improvement on the original Resolution, which gave no kind of indication to the Committee as to what is to be the scope of its inquiries. I certainly do not want when a Committee of this kind is chosen to prevent its inquiring into such questions as were raised by hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway opposite. In the different Government contract Departments, as has been well suggested, considerable saving might be effected, not so much because there is positive wastefulness as because those Departments are too apt to be out of touch with the trade. They are so afraid of being accused by this House, as they sometimes are, of being too much in touch with the trade that they keep too much out of touch with it. Accordingly they place their orders or issue their specifications under conditions which necessarily enhance the price. It is not that I think there is no need for economy: it is that I think a Committee of this House is not the best means for carrying out inquiries of this kind and for securing economies, that my opposition is given to it. I shall support the Amendment to the Motion which the Chancellor has accepted, reserving to myself the right to vote with any of my right hon. Friends who may feel that it is a mistake to have a House of Commons Committee for this purpose at all, and that if there is real work to be done it would be much better done by a small Committee of three or four men, sitting not with the formalities of a House of Commons Committee, but appointed to inquire into some specific and definite matter for the guidance of the Minister of that particular Department.

I would like to associate myself with those expressions of appreciation that have been given of the action of the Government in bringing forward this Motion. I am bound to confess that during the few years I have been in this House I have found it impossible to criticise or take part in Debates that have arisen with a view to economy.

I should like to give the House two or three instances in my public life which convinced me of the necessity for a Committee of this sort. Before I had been in the House two years, I, together with two or three Friends, took into consideration the work of the Army Department carried out at Enfield. I stated in this House before that that was the only Department of Government service that I thoroughly investigated. We went to Enfield to see what went on in the factories there in connection with the manufacture of Army rifles. We then found from a White Paper issued the number of rifles produced at the Government factory and the number of rifles bought by the Government from outside factories. We found, year after year, that the price of outside rifles was £1 per rifle more than the cost of their production at Enfield, and that in one year the cost was 26s. to 28s. more, and that in that particular year the Government bought 140,000 rifles, which meant a waste of nearly £200,000, and left the machinery standing idle at Enfield. That policy is going on up to the present moment. I brought that matter before the House two years ago, and the answer I got was that the War Office desired to retain, by purchasing from private owners, a reserve of additional plant. I pursued the matter further, and I found that in these outside factories they were making rifles in a sensible, businesslike way, and that in times of peace they were employing all their machinery in making those rifles. Where does the reserve then come in time of war, if these factories are turning out all the rifles they can in times of peace? They cannot produce more in times of war. In the South African war the Government factories could turn out 500,000 rifles, yet outside firms were paid 10s. more for every rifle they turned out. We say, without a moment's hesitation, that if you had a Committee of Estimates in existence, such as is proposed to be set up now, it would be impossible for that kind of thing to go on year by year.

I come to another matter which for eight years has never been discussed in this House. I was for many years a member of a watch committee which was appointed irrespective of party, and that committee and the chief constable were all of opinion that the police force was large enough for the management of the affairs of the borough, but pressure was brought to bear by the Home Office inspector upon the watch committee to increase the police force in that borough. They are doing that with every watch committee, and the money of the nation and of the ratepayers is being thrown away. That pressure has been exerted even though the watch committees and chief constables are of opinion that their forces are large enough. Crime has gone down, but we are forced to go on increasing the cost because the Home Office have a rule that with every increase of population you must have at least one more policeman. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his opening speech to-day, said he never heard those of us on these benches advancing proposals for economy. I would call to his recollection several occasions when we drew attention to the Army Estimates and to the number of soldiers maintained in South Africa. Before the war we had 5,000 soldiers in South Africa. When this Government came into power there were 15,000 soldiers there. That number has been reduced, but many Members see no reason why you should not go back to the original number of troops that were in South Africa before the war. The extra soldiers in South Africa lead to an extra expenditure of £2,000,000. Of course, one cannot say whether questions of this kind would not be trenching upon policy. I believe if this Committee of Estimates was appointed with limited powers at its command it would show such a wonderful improvement in the expenditure of this country that its powers would be gladly enlarged by any Government, from whichever party it was drawn. Either party would be pleased to extend these powers. I do not say that in connection with questions of Imperial policy, but I do say it in regard to matters of local policy and departmental policy, where enormous savings would be effected. If that Committee acted wisely and was able to make these economies any Government would be only too pleased to extend its powers. Members are anxious for social reform. Social reform costs money, but, with such a Committee as this, money which is now spent wastefully by every Department would be available for such social reform.

I rise to support this Resolution. Like the Chancellor of the Exchequer I would have preferred that the Resolution had remained in its original form, but as the Amendment does not make any great difference in principle, and as we are all anxious to get the Committee set up, I shall support the Resolution as amended. It is rather queer to find an ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer trying to oppose this Resolution which the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has proposed. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer has reason to complain of the criticisms made upon his recent policy. The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for East Worcester, said he was looking to the future. I do not know whether he was thinking of the possibility of again occupying the position which he formerly adorned, but I certainly think it reflects credit upon the present Chancellor that he has the courage to come forward and support the setting up of this Estimates Committee. I do not reflect upon the late Chancellor or on his lack of courage, but I think the action of the present Chancellor shows that he is not afraid of criticism from the Estimates Committee, or of any recommendation that might be made by that Committee. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his speech, while welcoming criticism, said there was no real recommendation made by this House upon the question of economy. My hon. Friend, who has just sat down, referred to that point. I submit that those of us who have moved reduction of Estimates from time to time, or endeavoured to make our views heard have done some good in that direction if only by creating an atmosphere which affects the Estimates of the following year, and I hope this Committee may be of immense service in that direction. It is not intended to affect the policy of the Government of the day; it is only intended to educate public opinion. It is to have power to send for persons and papers, and that is bound to be of immense service and help to the Government of the day.

As an example of that I might refer perhaps to the action with regard to the Naval Estimates when the First Lord of the Admiralty came down to this House some years ago and gave us information which upon his own admission eventually turned out to be wrong with regard to German expenditure upon armaments. Hon. Members will agree that the result of that information at the time was the passing of Estimates that would otherwise not have been passed, and although we are all in favour of a strong Navy, we do not wish to be led into expenditure at a moment when perhaps we might not find it necessary to carry out. This Committee will have the power to send for papers and persons and records which must in the nature of things be of service to any Chancellor of the Exchequer and any Government of the day. The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for East Worcester, also referred to companies and said that no company ever had a Committee of this character. Now I think on the contrary if you take the great insurance companies and the great financial institutions in the City of London, and the hon. Baronet the Member for the City will bear me out in this, you will find that these insurance companies have set up committees not, mark you, to govern the policy of these great institutions, but to sit upon finance and remark upon investments and discuss estimates and generally to give assistance to their directors, so that quite the contrary is the case to what the right hon. Gentleman said. Of course, the case is not analogous. We are not altogether similar to companies although in some respects there is some similarity between Members of this House and shareholders in great financial institutions, and there is some similarity between the Ministry and the directors of a company. Any Committee formed by this House should consist of distinguished Members of both parties and must be entirely at the service of the Government, and it must commend itself to any body of business men and broad-minded men to whichever party they belong. Therefore I hope the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcester will go into the same Lobby with us and vote for this Motion when it is amended. If he supports the Amendment, then he surely admits the principle, and in that case we will have, I hope, the unanimous vote of the House in favour of this proposal.

8.0 P. M.

I have much pleasure in supporting this Resolution. It is the best we can get and by setting it up we will be doing something to put an end to the shocking scandal that exists at the present moment in dealing with our expenditure. The fact that £50,000,000 or £60,000,000 should be passed under the guillotine at the end of each year is to my mind reducing the control of this House to an absurd and disgraceful position, and we ought to find some way of putting an end to it. I do not wish to say a word against the Public Accounts Committee, because it has done good and useful work, but it is not in a position to do all that should be done. We are in this position that we put the cart before the horse and shut the stable door after the steed is gone. Speaking generally, what on earth can the Committee of Accounts do? No doubt they are of some value and do some good. What I understand is proposed now is to set up an independent Committee that will not be packed like many of our Committees are, not to interfere with policy, I do not for a moment ask that this Committee should consider policy, but to go into the facts from an economical point of view.

That Committee ought to be obliged to sit with open doors so that the Press and the public may get in, and so that our constituencies may know something as to what is being done. We want to put an end to the doings of the Treasury in allowing the Army and Navy to spend money without coming to this House for leave to spend it. They have got the powers, out of the excess Votes, to take the money from one Vote and spend it on another, and as I discovered when I was serving on the Public Accounts Committee, some of that expenditure was very improperly made, and was never inquired into by a Committee of this House. This Estimates Committee ought to go into all that before the money is actually spent. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he had never heard of any economical proposals being carried out by this House at all. The reason of that is that the Government make it a vote of confidence and we are driven to some extent to support them, because we have to choose the least of two evils. The Government point out to us that if we do not support them on the Estimates, the result will be to let the Tories in, and of course that is the worst of the two evils. We want to be able to discuss these matters without Motions for reduction being taken as a Vote of want of confidence.

May I point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that in 1893 or 1894 we actually cut down the Estimates for the House of Lords by £1,000, and hon. Members will find the division taken on that occasion on record. The Government of that day was a Liberal Government, and they refused to put that amount back on to the Estimates, and said they were content with what the House of Commons had done. That was a proposal in the direction of economy; we got a number of Tories to vote with us, and they helped us to carry that proposition. That is a fact which no Chancellor of the Exchequer can get out of, because it is recorded. I hope this new Committee will be allowed to sit with open doors, because everything will depend upon the public knowing exactly what is going on. That is the great advantage of having the Estimates considered in this way. There are many Scottish Estimates which have never been considered at all except under the guillotine since 1906, and I doubt whether we shall have an opportunity of considering them this year. I hope the Government will not use their influence to fight this Committee. They have managed to keep me off the Public Accounts Committee on the ground, I suppose, that I criticised them too much, and I suppose they do not want anybody on this Committee who knows anything about things.

On the Public Accounts Committee I claimed the right to go into every account. At first my claim was questioned, but it was finally decided that I was right. I hope we shall endeavour to do something in this direction, because undoubtedly great savings may be effected without any loss of efficiency. I am told by an expert that in regard to the Army Estimates from £5,000,000 to £10,000,000 is actually wasted every year, and that you might get the same or better efficiency with a considerably less expenditure, but you have no opportunity at the present time to go into these matters. As a matter of fact the Government use the present system to prevent Votes being discussed at all. They do this by refusing to put down particular Votes because the guillotine comes along and settles them all. Two years ago I wanted to discuss the question of Lieutenant Woods, but the Government refused to put the Army Estimates down for discussion. Of course, questions of policy must be a matter to be dealt with by the House, but every other detail could be safely gone into by the Committee, and I am sure that if you get an intelligent Committee, a large saving will no doubt be effected. At any rate, I hope we shall make the attempt.

I welcome this proposal to appoint an Estimates Committee, because of the fact that it will allow Members of this House to approach those in an official position in respect to the contracts upon, which the expenditure of this country is based. I remember during the time of the Boer War, a friend of mine mentioned a case of gross extravagance. When the Vote for forage was before the House, I found that £1,000 had been wasted because an order had been given by a man who was not competent to buy at the lowest market price. I think that in regard to other branches of our supplies there are opportunities for establishing a much more economical system of purchasing than that which is in force to-day. I welcome this proposal on the ground that it will give hon. Members who have some knowledge of certain trades the opportunity of putting before an official Committee the means by which large economies may be made.

Amendment agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put, "That a Select Committee be appointed to examine such of the Estimates presented to this House as may seem fit to the Committee, and to report what, if any, economies consistent with the policy implied in those Estimates should be effected therein."

The House divided: Ayes, 191; Noes, 69.

Division No. 72.]

AYES.

[8.10 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

Nolan, Joseph

Acland, Francis Dyke

Hall, Frederick (Normanton)

Norton, Capt. Cecil W.

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Nuttall, Harry

Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

Haslam, James (Derbyshire)

O'Grady, James

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

O'Sullivan, Timothy

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Hayden, John Patrick

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Beale, William Phipson

Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Helme, Norval Watson

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Pirie, Duncan V.

Booth, Frederick Handel

Higham, John Sharp

Pointer, Joseph

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

Hinds, John

Power, Patrick Joseph

Brady, Patrick Joseph

Hodge, John

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Brocklehurst, William B.

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Pringle, William M. R.

Brunner, John F. L.

Holt, Richard Durning

Radford, G. H.

Bryce, John Annan

Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

Raffan, Peter William

Burn, Col. C. R.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Hudson, Walter

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Cawley, H. T. (Lanes., Heywood)

John, Edward Thomas

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Clancy, John Joseph

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Roche, Augustine (Louth)

Clough, William

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Clynes, John R.

Jowett, F. W.

Rowlands, James

Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Joyce, Michael

Rowntree, Arnold

Cooper, Richard Ashmole

Lamb, Ernest Henry

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Scan Ian, Thomas

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.

Crooks, William

Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

Shortt, Edward

Crumley, Patrick

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

Culiinan, John

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

Smith, Albert (Lanes, Clitheroe)

Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

Leach, Charles

Spear, Sir John

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Levy, Sir Maurice

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

Lewis, John Herbert

Sutherland, John E.

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Lynch, A. A.

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Dawes, J. A.

Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

Tennant, Harold John

De Forest, Baron

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Thomas, James Henry (Derby)

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Toulmin, Sir George

Dillon, John

McGhee, Richard

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Donelan, Captain A.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon, Dr. T. J.

Verney, Sir Harry

Doris, W.

Macpherson, James Ian

Wadsworth, John

Doughty, Sir George

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Wardle, G. J.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

Waring, Walter

Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

Manfield, Harry

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Essex, Richard Walter

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Watt, Henry A.

Falconer, J.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Fell, Arthur

Meagher, Michael

White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston>

Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles

Menzies, Sir Walter

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

Millar, James Duncan

Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Molloy, M.

Wilkie, Alexander

France, G. A.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Williamson, Sir Archibald

Furness, Stephen

Mond, Sir Alfred M.

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Gladstone, W. G. C.

Munro, Robert

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

Glanville, Harold James

Needham, Christopher T.

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Goldstone, Frank

Neilson, Francis

Greig, Col. J. W.

Neville, Reginald J. N.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

Griffith, Ellis Jones

Newton, Harry Kottingham

Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Goldsmith, Frank

Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

Anstruther-Gray, Major William

Greene, Walter Raymond

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Ashley, W. W.

Gretton, John

Sanders, Robert A.

Balcarres, Lord

Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

Stanier, Beville

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

Starkey, John Ralph

Barnston, H.

Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

Bigland, Alfred

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Bird, Alfred

Hill, Sir Clement L.

Thompson, W. Mitchell. (Down, North)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Kill-Wood, Samuel

Thynne, Lord A.

Cautley, H. S

Hohler, G. F.

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hope, Harry (Bute)

Tullibardine, Marquess of

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Valentia, Viscount

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Horner, Andrew Long

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Courthope, George Loyd

Hume-Williams, W. E.

White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

Winterton, Earl

Duke, Henry Edward

Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

Wolmer Viscount

Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Faber, George D. (Clapham)

Kyffin-Taylor, G.

Wright, Henry Fitznerbert

Forster, Henry William

Lewisham, Viscount

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Foster, Philip Staveley

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

Younger, Sir George

Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

Malcolm, Ian

Gilmour. Captain John

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Hayes Fisher and Col. Williams.

Question, "That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records," put, and agreed to.

Sea Fisheries (Scotland)

I beg to move, "That this House desires to impress upon His Majesty's Government the urgent necessity of adequately protecting and developing the Sea Fisheries of Scotland, and especially the importance of extending the limits of exclusive fishing and of giving such assistance to fishermen as will enable them to improve and acquire their -own boats and equipment."

Through the good fortune of the ballot, I am able this evening to bring before the House a subject in which every Scotch Member is deeply interested—a question affecting the Sea Fisheries of Scotland. I should like to call attention to two facts. In the first place, the fishing industry of Scotland bears a very much larger proportion to the other industries of the country than the fisheries in England bears to the other industries of that country. Almost every county of Scotland, and I hope every Scotch Member, is equally interested in this question. I may remind the House of a very old saying, really not quite true, but certainly very nearly true, that there is no place in Scotland more than forty miles from the sea. That is a statement which one not well acquainted with the country would find it difficult to believe, but there is scarcely an inland county in Scotland which, through some inlet, does not come in very close proximity to the sea. The sea-fishing industry is quite one of the most important of the industries of Scotland, and, as I have said, bears a very large proportion to the total of the industries of that country. If you exclude the industrial area—the mining and manufacturing area stretching from Glasgow to Edinburgh and from Fife to Ayrshire—the whole of the rest of Scotland depends upon two industries alone, and those are the land and the sea.

The control and the safeguarding of this important industry is in the hands of the Fishery Board of Scotland, which, I am sorry to say, is the most antiquated of all the authorities of the kind and has the smallest power and is the most insignificant. The House will hardly believe that the Fishery Board of Scotland has merely £800 a year. We all know it is supposed we in Scotland can make a sovereign go twice as far as they can in any other part of the United Kingdom, but that is a very poor sum for the safeguarding and watching of this important industry, and we should like to see the Board put on the same footing and given the same powers as any other local board of Scotland. The Local Government Board, for instance, has an income, I believe, of very close on £4,000 a year. We all agree that the important work of that Board is worth £4,000 a year, but surely the sea fisheries of Scotland are worth something like the same sum, and surely the Board ought to be put on the same footing as, and have similar powers to, the Local Government Board of Scotland. I am sure every Member who knows anything of the fishing population of Scotland will agree it is one of the finest races in the United Kingdom. They are practically a mixture of the Norsemen and Celts, and of all the races in the United Kingdom none have a finer origin, none have a finer physique, and none have a diner character or more independence and manliness than the Norsemen. I should like to say, as showing how the industry originally came to Scotland, that whilst the Gaelic language is spoken all over the rest of Scotland all the words applying to fishing and sailing are not Gaelic, but Norse words. Therefore the fishing industry and the business of sailing boats and ships came into Scotland with the Norsemen. I think we may all agree that that is a race which, in the interests of the country and of the Empire should be preserved. As far as the fishing industry goes it is a nursery for our mercantile marine and a nursery for the Imperial Navy. There is no race it is more worth while paying attention, to encourage and develop in every way we can.

I am sorry to say that in face of all this, in my own part of the country on the West coast of Scotland—I will speak for myself only, and for my own country— Argyllshire—which, as the House knows, embraces the herring fishery of Loch Fyne, the fishing population has, in the last ten years, decreased by one half. That is a national loss. I do not want to trouble the House with details of the proposals as to the way in which evils of this kind can be diminished. But I will refer to two or three of the problems which are exercising the minds, and which the fishermen of Loch Fyne naturally think ought to be dealt with. First of all, is it desirable that the herring fishery should have a close time? I am not going to debate that question; it is one which some authority in Scotland such as the Fishery Board should settle. If a close time be a good thing, let it be tried. Again, one of the most unfortunate and dangerous things that can happen to the fishing industry is the injury, depletion, and destruction of the spawning beds. I am not going to deal with the special rights of different classes of fishermen. Those are essentially questions for a fishery authority, by which they should be settled, and they should be settled in such a way that we shall no longer be exposed to the danger of having the spawning grounds interfered with, harried, and destroyed. Surely if we have a body that watches over the interests of the fisheries in Scotland that body ought to be able to prevent the damage which is now being done so largely and so seriously to the spawning beds.

I will give an instance of the damage that can be done by neglect in this matter. I believe it is the fact—my hon. Friends from the East of Scotland will correct me if I am wrong—that some little time ago there was a very prosperous oyster fishery in the Forth; yet that has entirely disappeared because of the manner in which it was neglected. On the other hand a proprietor on the West coast has established a very successful lobster farm, and it is clear that, by devoting a little care to lobsters, extremely useful work may be done in the direction of increasing the supply. Here is one instance of what neglect has done on one side by the destruction of an oyster fishery, and here is another instance of what may be done by care to preserve and foster another branch of the fishing industry. What I want to ask this House to do is to realise how vastly important the fishing industry is to Scotland. First it adds enormously to the food supply of the country. Secondly, it encourages the fine population we have to provide you with men for the merchant service and for the Navy. These are points which this House ought to bear in mind. Realising these facts, realising how much the fisheries at the present moment require in the way of assistance, realising how much in some parts your population is declining—and I am sure if a similar fishing population existed in Germany the Emperor would keep it in cotton wool, so great is the interest he would take in the development and encouragement of a fishing population of that kind—I hope, when my right hon. Friend comes to speak, he will tell us that the Government are prepared to take some steps to make the Fishery Board in Scotland a live Board.

I am prepared to admit that the Members of the Board have done the best they could with the limited resources which they have at their disposal, but I do sincerely hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to tell us that the Scottish Office is prepared to take steps to make the Fishery Board a real live Board and give it such powers as are conferred upon the Local Government Board and other Boards. I want also to remind him of this. We have now got a new Board in Scotland from which we hope a great deal —the Board of Agriculture. Hitherto, as I daresay all Scotchmen well know, the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries at Whitehall has had jurisdiction over Scotland as well. But as we have now got a Board of Agriculture, why should we not have a Fisheries Board as well? Let us have at the head of the Board an Under-Secretary, who will be able to assist my right hon. Friend, who so often is seated on that Front Bench alone, and would be still more lonely if it were not for the Lord Advocate. I am sure he wants somebody to help him; anybody who undertakes the duty of Secretary for Scotland is not only governing a Department, he is, in fact, governing a kingdom, and, if you have a big job of that kind, I feel certain that an Under-Secretary is necessary to help anyone who undertakes the duties. If we have a Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland—or, better still, a Fisheries Board by itself—let it be a Board with the same position, the same responsibilities, the same powers, and the same money as you now give to any other public Board of like standing, and let us have at the head of whatever Board you may create a man who can answer questions in this House. What is the good of asking questions here on matters connected with anything so remote as the fishery interests in the Shetlands when the question has to circulate round to Edinburgh and then come back here? How can you expect the right hon. Gentleman to have the whole facts of the matter at his command? I believe we are going to have this evening a great number of short speeches. We suffer a good deal from few and long speeches as a rule; to-night we are to have a good many short ones, and what may be lost in the quality will be made up in the quantity. I hope my colleagues, in the words they will have to say, will be able to convince the Government of the really serious importance of this question, and of the necessity of taking the matter in hand without delay, and that they will press for the best possible public man to be given charge of the question and to assist the Secretary for Scotland in his arduous duties.

I beg to second the Motion.

This Resolution, as the hon. Member said, is an exceedingly wide one, but, on the other hand, it is to a certain extent specific—that is to say, the last portion of it makes a distinct demand upon the Government. That is the part which deals with the question of State loans to fishermen. The grant of State assistance to fishermen is one I can readily support for the reason, if for no other, that a resolution in favour of State assistance was passed unanimously at a meeting held on the 8th March, in Aberdeen, by the Scottish Fishermen's Association. I had the honour to be present at that meeting and I heard a discussion upon the question. I believe that a system which has been carried out with success in Ireland, and in certain foreign countries, can be carried out with equal success in Scotland. I must admit that there are a number of fishermen in my Constituency who are, to say the least, a little dubious as to the advantages which may accrue from a system of this kind. While I found in my Constituency no opposition whatever to the principle of securing the independence of fishermen by this means, at the same time there was a general and manifest desire on the part of practically all the fishermen in my Constituency to learn the details of any scheme before they finally endorsed it. Moreover, at the meeting to which I refer—it was an exceedingly important meeting, representing fishermen from all parts of Scotland—priority was given to the discussion of the question of the restriction of trawling in inshore waters, especially that new system of trawling for herring which has been introduced recently. It was clearly stated at that meeting that unless something was speedily done by the Government in this matter, the only State assistance that the fishermen would require would be the price of their emigration tickets across the Atlantic Ocean.

The subject resolves itself into one simple question, whether or not the Government of Scotland are desirous of preserving the rural fishing population. In one way the Government do appear to be moving in the right direction. The Development Fund will, I believe, prove to be a blessing, if it is to be spent on the enlargement and improvement of the local harbour. The Commissioners have undoubtedly made a very good start. If it is their intention to continue to deal systematically with all the harbours right round the whole coast of Scotland, I feel certain that very great good will result from their policy. Fishermen will then be enabled to keep their boats in their own local harbours, and the money now required for laying up boats, and other incidental expenses, which are by no means small, will be spent locally, instead' of being spent in the larger centres, to which they are now compelled to resort. The policy adopted by the Development Commissioners will do a great deal to develop and improve the fishing industry in Scotland. But that alone is not enough, and the Government cannot possibly stop there. There is the perennial question of trawling and inshore trawling, which invariably crops up. Until the North Sea Convention of 1882 has been revised, and the principle of extending the territorial waters limit and of closing bays absolutely to trawlers has been adopted by the Government, this grievance will continue to remain and the livelihood of fishermen in Scotland will continue to be jeopardised.

From the year 1878 to the present time there has been a gradual and continual depletion of inshore fishing grounds and of general fishery grounds in the North Sea. This has been attributed, in my opinion on irrefutable evidence, to the methods of steam trawling and otter trawling. The fishing on the Dogger Bank has also steadily declined. So far as fishery grounds in the Moray Firth are concerned, I find that at Buckie, in Banffshire, twenty-fire years ago the value of white fish landed was on an average £2,000 a week, while during the last fifteen years the average has fallen to something like £200 a week. This has led fishermen to take up herring fishing, and now trawling herrings has been introduced. I can assure the House that very strong opinions were expressed at the meeting of Scotch fishermen on the subject of trawling fish. They believe that trawling will have much the same effect on the herring as it has on the white fish, that immature fish will be destroyed, and that the spawning beds will be also destroyed. There is no system which is so destructive as the system of trawling. I think it was suggested by the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Pirie), earlier in the Session, in a supplementary question, that the same thing could be said of cod-netting as of trawling, but I would point out that the cod net has a large mesh and is anchored, whereas the trawl net has no such large mesh and is trawled along the bottom. Various attempts have been made in 1889 and 1892 to deal with the matter, and finally, in 1908, the present Government passed the Trawling Areas Protection Act. These measures have only been partially successful. I believe to a great extent that is on account of the inadequate policing of our waters. The Scottish Fishery Board has at its disposal only five cruisers, one of which has to patrol from Cape North to Aberdeen, an obviously impossible task in view of the fact that it can only steam at half the pace of an ordinary trawler, and there is, of course, constant poaching in the Moray Firth and within the three-mile limit. I think more cruisers and faster boats are required. I would suggest to the Secretary for Scotland that one cruiser might well be stationed permanently in the Moray Firth, which is a vast stretch of water, with a considerable coastline, an important feeding ground, and a valuable nursery for young fish. At present it appears to be quite impossible to keep foreigners out altogether, but to argue that because of this it is necessary to throw the Firth open to all trawlers and to abandon the whole case is surely a policy of absolute despair. More than that, it would be a policy which is entirely contrary to the practically unanimous opinion of Scotland. A resolution was passed as recently as May, 1911, by the Convention of Royal Burghs, perhaps the most important body in Scotland, urging the need of extending the fishery limit in order to keep up the productiveness of the North Sea fisheries. That resolution undoubtedly represents a demand which is constantly put forward by the fishermen of Scotland in favour of a thirteen-mile limit. The authorities say that there is no necessity whatever to confound the zone which is necessary in order to protect the inshore fisheries with the zone which is necessary to guarantee the neutrality of non-belligerents in time of war. The two questions are quite distinct and there is no reason for mixing them up.

As to the right of this country to close bays entirely against trawlers and against foreign fishers, in the great arbitration case of Newfoundland v. the United States in 1910 no less an authority than The Hague Tribunal laid it down that territorial waters, in the case of bays, extended for three miles from a straight line drawn across the body of water where it ceases to have the configuration and characteristics of a bay. I feel that if the Government would only acknowledge and adopt this definition and seek to obtain a revision of the North Sea Convention upon this basis they would meet with very little opposition indeed from the other nations concerned. Spain, Portugal, Norway, France do not now acknowledge the three-mile limit; and Russia, Germany, and Denmark are well known to be in favour of an extension of it. I do not wish to put forward any proposal. I would rather leave that to those in authority. A small Commission is at present inquiring into one phase of the problem of Scotch sea fisheries. I suggest that it might be possible to extend the terms of reference to this committee in order that they may take evidence and explore the whole question of our Scottish sea fisheries. It is an excellent committee, including no less an expert than the hon. Member (Mr. Sutherland). He knows more about the subject than anyone else. The Report of the Committee would be a very important one, and the Government would naturally take immediate action on its presentation. But the time has really come when the Government must put an end to the present farcical state of affairs. They must stop blowing hot and cold on the subject. They must announce definitely whether or not the Government of Scotland does consider it important to preserve the existence of this class of our population. These men are a very law-abiding race, and they desire to put forward their case in a constitutional manner through their representatives in this House, but if the inaction of the Government is to continue to demonstrate the helplessness of Parliament they will be driven to adopt methods which are not so pleasant which we have seen used quite recently with such signal success in respect of another of our important industries.

I rise to support the Motion, and I welcome the opportunity of impressing it on the Government. We want adequate protection for our sea fisheries. We want the limit of exclusive fishing extended, and we want, as far as possible, such assistance to our fishermen as may be considered necessary in different localities. I say this because most of my Constituents, I think, are independent of a Government Grant. Most of them own their own ships and their own houses, and they are not dependent on any pittance from the Government. But there are others who are less fortunate, and I am quite sure that the more successful of my Constituents would never grudge any help which could be given to their less fortunate brethren, particularly with regard to motor power for sailing boats. When I ask for State aid I do not mean a Grant to enable fishermen to pay off their bad debts, but I certainly would like to see the experiment tried of giving them a certain amount of help to enable them to put motor power into their sailing boats. With regard to the question of the three-mile limit, in the sixteenth century the Dutch had captured most of the fishing trade, and it is significant that the Scotchmen objected to their trade being interfered with, and they claimed a twenty-eight-mile limit, and they threatened to enforce it by sending the heads of those who trespassed by the barrel-full to Holland or any other country where the poachers came from. That is perhaps a tribute to the energy and grit of my countrymen. We do not want to go so far as that nowadays, but we claim some sympathy on the part of the Government when we ask for the protection of our inshore fisheries. There is no real territorial limit to the British shores. The late Lord Salisbury, on 6th May, 1895, when speaking on this subject, said great care had been taken not to name three miles as the territorial limit. The three-mile limit is merely a measurement agreed by certain countries, namely, the signatories of the North Sea Convention. The countries are France, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Great Britain. Amongst other countries which have not entered into this agreement various limits prevail. It may be interesting to detail them. Russia claims, I believe, a twelve-mile limit in the White Sea, Norway four miles, Sweden four, Spain six, Portugal six, and Italy from three to five. The origin of the three-mile limit was the theory that a gunshot from the shore was the territorial limit of a maritime Power. An arrangement of this kind would suit very well nowadays, for we could then assert the thirteen-mile limit that our fishermen are so anxious to get without any fear of contradiction.

But the truth is that any limit that we ask for must be made by national arrangement, and I urge the Government to invite the other signatories of the North Sea Convention to look into the matter and see if they cannot really arrive at some more satisfactory arrangement than we have at present. I have seen hitherto no extraordinary haste on the part of this Government to move in the matter. The late Secretary for Scotland was an old comrade and a great friend of mine, and I do not want to say anything which would give him pain; but I hope in our new Secretary for Scotland, whom I welcome on the Front Bench, to see a new style, if I may so call it, and more help for our fishermen. With regard to the Moray Firth I agree with what has been said by speakers who preceded me. This Government, I think, made a great mistake when it reversed the decision of the highest legal Court in Scotland—a decision which was accepted by the then Secretary for Scotland (Lord Linlithgow). It was then laid down that the Moray Firth should be closed to trawlers, and I believe if that had been maintained, we should have had no trouble, but unfortunately the Liberal Government in its wisdom decided that that should not stand. They reversed the decision, and we have had nothing but confusion and trouble ever since.

9.0 P.M.

The claim which we make as to the Moray Firth is nothing extraordinary. Other countries are enabled to close their bays. As the hon. Member for Banffshire (Captain Waring) said, there are various places that are closed. France has established her right over the Bay of Cancale, which is the southern part of Granville Bay. Almost the whole of Granville Bay is closed, and that is a very large area. Newfoundland has closed the Bay of Conception, and Canada has closed the Bay of Chaleur. Norway has asserted a similar claim at the Lofodens. The United States has closed Chesapeake Bay, and if you look to South America you will see that the enormous Bays of Saint George, San Matias, and Nuevo are all closed to trawling and maintained for the local fisheries. To come nearer home you have the Bristol Channel in England closed to trawling. If you can close the Bristol Channel, what on earth prevents you being able to close the Moray Firth? There is another step which could be legally taken I believe, and that is to enforce the three mile limit from our outside rocks and islands. Why not enforce the three mile limit from the Bell Rock? That would be welcomed by all fishermen in that locality, and I think it would have a very small effect on the interests of trawlers. It would be a boon to all in that locality, while it would do little or no harm to anybody. That line might be taken by the Government. In Denmark they extend the three mile limit from the rocks and islands, and nobody has objected. I do not know why anybody should object to the limit being reckoned as from the Bell Rock. If you care to extend it to Rockall I would not mind, though I do not think it is so good a fishing locality as the Bell Rock. It is no use making a limit unless you are able to enforce it. To enforce it you require an adequate supply of fishery cruisers, and you require some rather more drastic remedy than we have at present by law for dealing with poaching trawlers. I do not want to tilt against trawlers. I have got friends on both sides of the House who are interested in trawling. Trawling is perfectly legitimate, and there is no-reason why they should not have the same fair play as drift and line fishermen; but when the two things clash, I do claim that the Government should have a Commission to look into the matter in order that neither the one nor the other may suffer unduly.

The punishments for illegal trawling are quite insufficient. Some hon. Gentlemen may remember the remarks on this subject of Sheriff Wallace, the Sheriff of Argyllshire. He said:— do it in less time, they think that it is not worth while, and that it is better to stick to their fishing and allow the trawlers to go. Of course, if some assistance was given to them by the State to take up the matter, a very different situation would arise. In the meantime the whole thing is most unsatisfactory. The punishments are far too light, as is proved by the continuation of the trouble, and the sooner the Government puts an end to the matter the better.

I now come to a very difficult matter. It is one that interests not only my own Constituents, but I think the fishermen of all the Scottish constituencies, and that is the question of trawling for herring. "Trawling for herrings is perfectly legal. We have no case there; but we do ask that if trawling for herrings destroys the shoals, the breeding grounds, and upsets the fishing, and results in the catching of immature fish, then the Government ought to have an inquiry to see what can be done. I believe that many of the fish thus caught are quite unfit for market; they are so bruised and knocked about that nobody will buy them. They may be used for some purposes, but they cannot be used for the best purposes, and there is no use in catching fish to make manure out of them. My Constituents are clamant in their request to the Government to look into this matter, and I hope that they will do so. I think that the time has really come when the three-mile limit might be extended against that particular form of fishing if necessary. I do not want to dogmatise on it, because we have little experience of it as yet, but all the indications go to show that it is going to be a great evil to some of the most industrious and some of the best of our fishing community. I do appeal to the Government to look into the matter. Of course, any steps in reference to the stopping of trawling for herrings would have to be taken by international agreement. There is no use stopping our own people unless you stop the foreigner, and I hope that the Secretary for Scotland will bear that in mind, because otherwise there is no use in doing anything at all.

There is another point which I approach "with caution. It is as regards His Majesty's ships in connection with fishing. I know well that His Majesty's ships must face all weathers, and take all risks, and look for bad weather and ride through bad weather, and I would be the last to hinder them. On the contrary, I am in favour of having as strong and efficient a Navy as we can afford. But I do say this, that I hope I shall not be misunderstood if I complain of the recurrence of wholesale destruction of nets by His Majesty's torpedo boats off the coast of Fife. Last year I had to complain of nets and gear being destroyed in fine weather where the regulation lights were carried. Of course, if it is foul weather or lights are not carried, then the men have only themselves to blame, but I do claim that when they are riding at sea with lights, and all the Regulations are complied with, more care should be taken than is at present apparently used. Last year it was in March. This year it is on February 20th. Six torpedo boats went through the fishing fleet off Anstruther and destroyed over £100 worth of nets, and again I asked a question about it. I have a report of it here. I asked the Secretary to the Admiralty and he said:—

When these nets are destroyed of course application is made for compensation, and I am bound to say that the Admiralty is generally quite fair in the granting of this compensation; it will look into the matter fairly and grant the compensation claimed. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not always."] I was .going on to that point. The difficulty is that the Coastguards will only accept the claim for actual damage done when in fact the actual damage may be a great matter, but the loss of opportunity, as anybody who knows about fishing will recognise, is a far greater matter. If you lose two or three nights of good fishing the consequential damage is far more serious than the damage to nets and gear, and that is a point which I think ought to be taken into consideration far more than it has been hitherto. Of course the theory that the King may do no wrong is a very good theory so far as it goes, but we must remember that the law of Scotland is that if a mercantile ship destroys the nets or gear of fishermen it is liable for the fishing lost as well as for the gear damaged, and the Admiralty indeed have recognised this principle, because in the case of His Majesty's ship "Speedwell" and the "Cornucopia," in the accident off Fife-ness, in my Constituency, in 1905, they paid some £80, if I remember aright for compensation for loss of fishing as well as the loss of nets. I commend that to the Secretary to the Admiralty, and I hope that he will do what he can to help a very fine set of men from whom His Majesty's ships get some of their best recruits. Another very important point is that we ought to have an Intelligence Department on the Fishery Board. What I mean is that if you can send out fishing boats to scout for shoals of herrings and other fish if necessary, to the various places where they may be found, you will do infinite good to the fishing communities of our sohres. A private fisherman cannot afford to go prospecting round our shores, but if you could arrange to subsidise certain boats whose duty it would be to look for fish and report it, that would be a very great boon to all concerned.

With regard to the Development Grant, much was hoped for and, as yet, very little has been done. It is eighteen months ago that three ports of my Constituency— St. Andrews, Anstruther, Pittenweem and St. Monanse—applied for a grant. At various periods—five months, ten months, twelve months, and now eighteen months —I have asked the Secretary to the Treasury the result of the application. Today I am told, and it is the first that I have heard of it, that St. Andrews is cut out. That is not very satisfactory. With regard to the other ports, nobody can tell me what has occurred. I think eighteen months is a very long time to have to wait for an announcement of what is going to be done. The mill of the Treasury may grind very small, but it takes an unconscionable time about it. I was asked the other day by a friend interested in the fishery question what I want. This is what I want: I claim more practical sympathy on the part of the Government for the fishermen of our Scotch coasts. I desire more prompt attention to their wants. I suggest that an invitation should be sent to the signatories of the North Sea Convention to agree to the extension of the three-mile limit, to a limitation of trawling for herring, and to consider a close time from 1st April to 10th June on the East Coast of Scotland. As to the West Coast, I do not deal with it; I am not aware of what they want. That could all be done by international arrangement, and I suggest that the Moray Firth should receive the same treatment as the Bristol Channel. I ask for at least a three-mile limit from the Bell Bock. I ask for a special inquiry into the question of trawling for herring without delay. I suggest that the present income of the Fishery Board is altogether inadequate, and ought to be increased. I have demanded much, and I know I am demanding much, but I appeal to the Government, on behalf of a class of men whose daily bread is won by arduous work on dangerous seas and whose life's work appeals to British sympathy. And I would remind the Government that if ever a bad time comes it is to the fishermen of our coasts that Britain will have to look to help to man her Fleets and obtain her food supply in time of war— brave, honest, independent men, who are an asset to the nation, and whose interests every patriotic statesman should be proud to serve.

I listened with very great interest to the Proposer and Seconder of this Resolution, and with at least some of their remarks I find myself in entire accord. In the first place, I think it must be acknowledged by everybody that the fishing industry in Scotland is a very important one. Its success and prosperity mean a very large measure of success and prosperity to Scotland generally. I also agree that from the fishermen, of Scotland and of England we get a very large number of worthy men for our Navy and that the fishing industry is a nursery for the supply of men for that important Service. But I am not quite sure that I agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite when he attacks the Scottish Fishery Board. I was really surprised to hear anyone suggest that there should be established in Scotland a Board for Agriculture and Fishery. That is a thing we want undoing in England. We desire to have a Fishery Board for ourselves, and that they should have a Board of Agriculture for themselves. Although I am not prepared to make any criticism of the Scotch Fishery Board, as far as I have had any dealings with them I think that they are very able men, and that although they may not be quite up-to-date, still there are sufficient Scotch Fishery Members of this House to bring any Department up to date if they only press it sufficiently hard. I am afraid my speech will not meet with much accord either from the other side of the House or from my hon. Friend who has just spoken, because, in the first place, I wish to assert that Scotch fishing has been and is a prosperous industry, and that it is widely and properly protected. If you look at the question widely and fairly you will come to the conclusion that there is no industry in Scotland that has been more successful or that has given greater advantage to those who are engaged in it, whether it be the fishermen or those who employ them, than has the fishing industry in Scotland. My hon. Friend seems to question that view of the case, but, after all, facts are facts, and they will speak for themselves. If you will take ten years of the history of the Scotch fishing industry, you will find that the statement I have made cannot be controverted. In 1900 there was 120,000 tons of tonnage in that trade; in 1910 there was 240,000 tons of tonnage engaged in that industry. The whole value of the boats in 1900, with their gear, was £2,700,000; and in 1910 it was £5,540,000. Surely that indicates the great prosperity of the Scottish fishing industry, and what they have done in supplying the food required for the United Kingdom.

If the hon. Gentleman desires me to enter into that question and will listen to me I will deal with it most closely in regard to the herring side of the subject. I want, first of all, to prove conclusively that the fishing trade in Scotland is profitable and prosperous. The catch in 1900 was 5,300,000 cwts.; in 1910 it was 8,700,000 cwts. In 1900 its value was £2,300,000, and in 1910,£3,200,000. The hon. Gentleman asked how much of that is attributable to the trawler? I will ask the House to look at the question purely from the standpoint of the Scotch herring industry, how it has progressed, is it a flourishing industry, does it require that Parliament shall specially protect it? Listen to these figures. In 1900, 3,500,000 cwts. of herring were caught in Scotch ships in Scottish waters; in 1910 the quantity had risen to 5,600,000 cwts. in Scottish waters. The value in 1900 was £1,210,000, and in 1910 it was £1,594,000. That is not the whole case from the standpoint of the Scottish fishermen and the earnings of the industry. That is merely the amount of the fish and of the money that was taken out of the Scottish grounds themselves and sold for the consumption of the people of this country. But these Scottish fishing vessels of yours come into British waters, and we are very glad to see them. We do not come to the House of Commons and ask that there should be legislation preventing Scottish vessels coming into British waters. Not at all. Our ports are open to them, and we are glad to have the opportunity of doing their business, but what is the position? In 1900, 1,050,000 cwts landed in English ports from Scottish ships and in 1910 there were 1,243,000 cwts. The value of that fish alone in 1900 was £259,000, and in 1910 it amounted to £456,000, so that the Scottish herring industry has received much the larger proportion of the increase in value of the Scottish fishing trade. I therefore claim that the Scottish fishing industry has been remarkably successful, and in my judgment more successful than any other fishing industry in any of the islands.

When hon. Gentlemen speak of Scotland, they seem to forget Aberdeen. It is a remarkable thing that during these few years Aberdeen as a fishing port has been created, and Aberdeen's great business now, and its great increase of population, is largely due to the fact that the steam fishing industry has been located in Aberdeen. [HON. MEMBERS: "Trawlers."] I say that the steam fishing industry has been located in Aberdeen. I have a good deal of sympathy with my hon. Friends and the other Gentlemen who speak about the depletion of' population in some of the villages on the East coast of Scotland. I am sorry for them, but I believe it is inevitable. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] I do not say that against the men at all, but it is the change in the circumstances, and in the conditions of trade which bring about that remarkable and unfortunate condition of affairs so far as those villages are concerned. The whole herring fishing industry has drifted into steam drifters, and the steam drifters are employing the young men from your villages, and the fish is being sold in other ports of Britain, and consequently those men, as a class, are better employed and better paid than they would have been, or could have been, if they had been living in the villages and doing their work there. I agree that one great advantage would be to have the harbours provided, and I think that, so far as the Development Grant is concerned, it will to some extent help the industry if harbours are provided for them out of that Grant.

I am not so sure of that. There is a side issue to this. The steam herring drifter as soon as it becomes a less useful and effective instrument when the herring season is over, goes catching halibut, and a portion of its earnings are landed in Aberdeen and other ports. We might as well make a representation and come to this House and ask to have a law to prevent steam drifters catching halibut and decreasing the value of the fish we catch. There would be just as much reason in taking up that position as in you saying that the trawler shall not trawl for herrings. The fact is that as long as the sea is open to everybody, every fisherman will have the right to go there and catch his fish as best he can. I am afraid I must say that this attack, this continual attack, upon the trawler is an attack upon the fishing industry of the East Coast of England.

I am willing to deal with that question. This question of the extension of the three-mile limit is an attempt to attack the fishing industry on the Eastern Coast of England. I think we ought to try to look at this question from the standpoint of the amount of fish-food that is to be consumed and found for the people of England, and Scotland, and Wales. It is a very great industry, and nothing should be done that will cripple it or that will impede its progress in providing cheap food for the people of this country. In the year 1910 there were 13,000,000 cwts. of fish landed and sold in the markets of Great Britain of the value of more than £8,000,000, and I mean even apart from Scotland. If you attempted to increase the three-mile limit to thirteen, you would aim a deadly blow at the food resources of this country, and you would aim a deadly blow at a great industry on which many thousands of people are living, and you would also do a thing which is internationally wrong and which you cannot do as matters are at the present time. Why it should be the desire of a few persons, comparatively speaking, over a small part of the coast of Great Britain to bring about a change in our international relationships, namely, to establish a thirteen-mile limit, is a thing that passes my comprehension. We do not hear this cry from the fishermen of England, either on the East or the West. It is because there is a" certain area, particularly of the East Coast of Scotland, where unquestionably, owing to the altered conditions of fishing, there is some unfortunate suffering amongst the people, but the whole question must be looked at from the standpoint of the nation as a whole.

I contend that to interfere with the three-mile limit would be a disaster to a great industry, and a disaster to the people as a whole, for, after all, the other section of the fishing industry have as much right to be considered as those represented by my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite. Even if it could be carried out, and if you could alter the law, I ask you to consider that such a position would be impossible. How could a steam trawler on a thirteen-mile limit draw the line and know whether it was within that limit or not 1 It is difficult enough to do it in the three-mile limit, and if you attempted to fix thirteen it would be impracticable and could not be carried out, and would bring about endless trouble and a great number of prosecutions. I am glad to know that this Government, like the preceding Government, is firm on this question of not interfering with international relationships in regard to a three-mile limit. The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary told this House most clearly, and in most emphatic terms, that he could not entertain the question of applying to the other Powers for a reconsideration of this question. In answer to a question from an hon. Gentleman not long ago he said:—

It would not be right for me to say nothing about the Moray Firth. I really thought we had finished with the Moray Firth when the Secretary for Scotland got his Bill through this House. I am very much surprised to learn that there is any poaching in the Moray Firth now, or that there is any fish at all brought from those waters and sold in England. I say quite honestly I do not believe there is. I believe that the Act of the right hon. Gentleman, if it is looked at fairly and honestly, has cured the evil. As most people in this House know, I supported that Bill. I supported it because I did not believe that British trawlers should be put under a foreign flag for the purpose of fishing in the Moray Firth. I made a perfectly frank statement on the question in this House. I supported the Bill because I objected to British fishermen being turned out of British ships and those ships being manned by foreigners for the purpose of fishing in the Moray Firth. There were some thirty or forty ships being used in that way and bringing their fish to markets in England. What has happened? With the exception, I believe, of three, they have all been transferred back to the British flag, and are fishing in the North Sea and elsewhere. Therefore I think the right hon. Gentleman deserves credit for having done something to cure that evil. The other three ships do not sell their fish in England at all. I am not going to say that there has not been an attempt now and again to do so. I think there has been, but I believe the fishery officers have been so smart that it has been rather difficult. In one or two instances the offenders have been fined, and they have not pursued a policy of that kind again. Therefore I contend that this question of the Moray Firth ought not to be raised in this relation. If there is any fishing in the Moray Firth it is by foreign trawlers, who have as absolute a right to go there as they have into any other part of the sea, because that great arm of the sea outside the three-mile limits as much the open sea to the world as is the North Sea itself. We have heard something about the number of convictions. I have tried to look into this question very closely, and I am of opinion that instead of convictions increasing they are decreasing very rapidly. In 1907 the number of prosecutions for illegal fishing was 131.

Yes, Scotland alone. These figures are from the Scottish Fishery returns. The number of convictions was 122, and the amount paid in fines was £4,495. Of these cases, seventy-four were detected by the Scottish Fishery cruisers, and twenty-one by the Admiralty. There was practically no private individual who made any charge in that year. Now look at 1909, after the passing of the Moray Firth Bill. What happened then? There were sixty-three prosecutions and sixty-one convictions. Thirty-four of those offences were detected by your cruisers, and twenty-six were reported by private individuals and fishermen, a process to which I very strongly object, and which I believe to be absolutely wrong. I am giving these figures to show that you have no case at all, that on your own evidence, on the findings of your own Courts, of your own Commission, and of your own cruisers, you have no case for saying that there is general poaching or that steam trawlers fish inside the three-mile limit. Take your own figures for 1910, the last published; what do you find? There were only thirty-one prosecutions for illegal fishing all round the coast of Scotland, and there were thirty convictions. Of those, twenty-six were detected by your own cruisers and only four by private individuals. But the case is still stronger than that, because three of the thirty-one were foreign ships. Five others were sailing trawlers: therefore the steam trawler could not be blamed for those. So that there were brought before your Courts in 1910, around the whole of Scotland by your five cruisers, only twenty-three cases of persons who had broken the law by illegal fishing. May I say, in defence of the East Coast fishermen, that only three of these ships belonged to England, the rest of them being owned in Scotland 1 I do not say that as against Scotchmen, but the fact remains that there were so few that really it cannot be considered that there is any breaking of the law by intent. Some of these men may have been inside the limit without knowing it at all. When it is remembered that there are thousands of fishing ships, I am surprised that the number is not much larger. I say, therefore, that the fishing industry of Scotland is a prosperous industry, that it ought not to ask for special protection, that the case as regards men fishing within the limit is not proved by your own figures, and that so far as the herring industry is concerned it is, as a whole, prosperous and doing very well indeed. I do not know whether I should say anything on the question of loans to fishermen. I am not very materially or seriously interested in that question, except on its broad principle. I think it would be an inadvisable and unwise thing, for this reason. If State loans are to be granted to fishermen you will aim a blow at that mighty multitude of Scotch fishermen who have already provided their own ships, and who, by their own personal enterprise and personal energy, are making themselves a place in the world.

If you are going to make loans out of State funds, I am bound to say that I think it will be a very dangerous thing to do, when one takes into consideration the class of security that would be offered to the State, and the changing conditions of that type of security. I think you are a very long way from getting anything of that kind, because, in the first place, you cannot do it by Statute to-day; in the next place you would require an Act of Parliament for individual loans of money under the Development Grant for the purposes of that Grant. In my opinion it would be much wiser to leave the Scottish fishing industry and fishermen to work out their own salvation in the way they are doing now, by loans from the banks and other ways. I am perfectly certain if you give up finding fault and trying to look at the other side of the picture you will see that Scotland is a prosperous country, and prosperous largely because it has a splendid fishing industry, and a magnificent number of intelligent, industrious men. Give them a chance on the general lines. Do not ask for State aid in this—I was going to say— pauperising sort of fashion.

The hon. Gentleman the Member for Grimsby seems to be very greatly impressed with two facts in connection with the Scottish fishermen. The one is in regard to the backward condition of those who are connected with the smaller places, whilst the hon. Gentleman is filled with admiration at the enterprise and development of those connected with places like Aberdeen. He spoke at some length of the great increase in value of the fishing boats and fishing vessels which are now owned in Scotland as compared with the value some years ago. But he seemed to forget entirely that this great increase in value is due to the enterprise and thrift of the line fishermen, who have put their money into steam drifters; not to the enterprise—to the great expenditure, at any rate—of those connected with the trawling industry of Aberdeen. It may satisfy him to know of the increase of trawlers in Aberdeen. In 1905 there were 228 trawlers; in 1910 there were 282. That does not by any means account for the vast increase in the value of the fishing vessels of Scotland, which is, as I said, attributable to the enterprise and thrift of those whom the hon. Gentleman seems to be rather inclined to despise—that is, the fishermen who are connected with the smaller fishing places.

I have no desire to imply anything of the kind. I took the whole of the ships.

I accept the hon. Gentleman's disclaimer that he does not wish to cast aspersions upon that particular class. Certainly his statement misled the House—at least, I think it did—for he gave us to understand that this great increase was due to the increase connected with Aberdeen. We come to the increase in the value of the Scottish fisheries. It is due not to an increase in value of white fish, or the demersal fish, as they are called, but to an increase in the value of herrings, which is the industry with which these drifters are chiefly connected. We come here to-night however, not to complain of want of prosperity in the herring fishery; that is not our complaint. Our complaint is that the conditions are such that we are interfering with the prospects of the food supply of our people, chiefly connected with what are called the demersal fish—that is, the fiat fish of the North Sea. I want to draw the attention of the House to three points. I do not wish to argue this matter to-night from the point of view of the line fishermen or the drift-net fishermen versus the trawler. I think both styles of fishermen are proper in their own place. I want to argue the question to-night on much more important and broader grounds—that is, the maintenance and development of the food supply of the nation as a whole. I am quite willing to take the point of view of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken when he stated we should treat this question from the standpoint of the nation as a whole.

I wish to draw attention to three points in connection with the food supply. First of all, let me state that there is a falling off in the catch of flat fish—that is, the demersal or white fish in the North Sea. A very interesting Return in connection with this matter has just been published. It is the last Report of the Proceedings under the Acts relating to Sea Fisheries by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. What do you find there? That there has been a very serious falling off in the quantity of white fish caught in the North Sea —in brill, sole, turbot, haddock, lemon sole, plaice, and skate. In the year 1906 we caught fish to the extent of 2,600,000 cwts. In 1910 that capture had fallen off to 1,800,000 cwts., a falling off, let the House observe, of about one-third of the quantity during five years. That falling off has not been arrived at by accidental comparison with any one poor year. There has been a steady decrease during the period. With this in view, let us look at another statement in the Report, and a very important one, which is that "the average catch per diem of steam trawlers shows a decrease of 4 per cent, as compared with last year, and, with the exception of 1905, is the lowest in the table of eight years." That is a very important statement, that our food supply of these flat fish in the North Sea is a steadily diminishing quantity. It is not, as some allege, because we fish less, but because those who do fish are catching less than before.

My second proposition is that a great deal of damage is done to immature fish by the system of fishing known as otter trawling. I would call the attention of the House on this latter matter to the Report which has been made by the Scottish Fishery Board. I find that in the catch off Caithness, in the Moray Firth, in a four and a half hours' haul, there were 405 fish caught. Of that total 235 fish—that is, 60 per cent.—were thrown overboard as unmarketable. There are also other statistics in this Report of the Fishery Board in relation to the Moray Firth. In some of the catches by trawlers in the shallow waters of the Moray Firth and other places round the coast of Scotland, the catches were not by boats belonging to the Fishery Board and unusual in their equipment or character, but were catches by commercial trawlers which were engaged by the Fishery Board for the purpose. In some of these catches the quantity of unmarketable fish thrown overboard was no less than 90 per cent of the fish caught. My second proposition therefore is that a great deal of damage is done by this system of trawling. It is not as we are sometimes told, that the meshes of the trawler are so large that small fish escape. The meshes get stopped up by seaweed, stones, and so on; the small fish do not get out, and by the time the fish are hauled into the boat they are destroyed. The third proposition is that the damage is greater in shallow waters than it is in deeper waters. It is a fact very well known indeed, and I can give the House statistics from the Report of the Fishery Board of Scotland again, on p. 42, to show that a trawler fishing off Faröe in fifty-five to seventy-three fathoms caught 1,048 fish in one haul. Out of those 1,048 fish all but three taken from that deep water were marketable fish. In seventeen hauls, which lasted for sixty-seven and a-half hours, 14,000 fish were caught, and 164 only were unmarketable, which is a little over 1 per cent. I think I have proved this third proposition—that is, that the destruction is greater in shallow water than in deep water. "What does that bring us to? We have three facts: (1) That the catch in the North Sea is falling off; (2) that there is great damage done to immature fish by trawling; and (3) that the damage is greater in shallow water than in deep water, and these three facts are agreed to by trawlers, line fishermen and drift fishermen, and also by scientists. We are met, when we come to the Scottish Fishery Board and ask for something to be done to remedy these evils, by the statement that scientists have not yet reported upon their investigations in the North Sea. But why are we to wait for this Report when we "have the fact agreed that this destruction is going on. I am taking a much broader standpoint than trawling versus line fishermen. I am taking the question from the broader point of view of the maintenance and increase of the supply of fish, because if you destroy the small fish in the shallow grounds you will obviously have less fish for the trawlers as well as for line fishermen. These scientists have been ten years investigating in the North Sea, and we have had most interesting documents about the temperature of the water, the various currents, and the salinity of the water. I do not question the value of these things. They are all very interesting and may lead to practical conclusions, but we have in connection with this matter to deal with the immediate interests of the fishermen, as their representatives in this House, and we have got enough facts and sufficiently grave facts to go upon, and we ask the Government not to wait a series of scientific reports.

My suggestion is that the three Boards of England, Scotland, and Ireland should meet together and try to frame some national policy. We have been to the Foreign Secretary and asked him to take action about extending territorial waters, and to denounce the North Sea Convention. He tells us, "The Scotch Board wishes extension of the territorial waters, but when I come to the English Board I am told their views are opposed to that. The Government as a whole must make up its mind as to what line it is going to pursue." I am not prepared here to say what exact policy the Government ought to pursue. That is for the various Fishery Boards of the three countries to consider and make up their minds after they have ascertained the feeling, experience, and working knowledge of the fishermen, and the Government ought then to take international action after consulting these Fishery Boards, with a view to the preservation of the food supplies of the North Sea, which are of very great importance.

10.0 p.m.

We have in the North Sea 1,300 trawlers, and other countries in the North Sea have 660, so that we have two to one of the trawlers fishing in the North Sea, and when it comes to the drifters and line fishermen, the proportion in our favour is even greater, so that our interest is the chief interest. We do not wish the protection of one country versus another, we wish the protection against unnecessary and wasteful destruction for the benefit of all countries. We wish to see the food supplies of the whole North Sea maintained and increased. We do not wish to have an extension of territorial waters up to thirteen miles, or to restrain fishing on the Dogger Bank in order that our fishermen should have a preserve for themselves within that limit. If the restriction is to apply to foreign trawlers, we wish it to apply to our trawlers also. Similarly if it is thought fit to extend the territorial waters off the coast of Germany, we maintain and ask that no German trawler shall trawl within that limit, if our trawlers are not to trawl there also. We ask for a policy that will maintain the food supplies for all in the North Sea, which is of great consequence to all, but primarily to our country. The House must also remember that the North Sea is a peculiar area and a most prolific area, in that it is very shallow, and because it is shallow—about seventy-five fathoms— there is so large a quantity of fish bred in it. From that area they spread into the deeper waters outside.

Some people may say, "Why make this outcry about the depletion of the fishing grounds, when from the statistics—quoted by my hon. Friend opposite—the total supply of fish landed in our island has so increased." But where does that supply come from? It comes from the White Sea, from the coast of Morocco, from the Atlantic Ocean, and from very far-off places where the big trawlers can go, and where they now trawl to a depth of from 1,000 to 1,200 feet below the surface of the sea. They now bring fish from a depth never dreamt of ten years ago. That is a very important aspect of this question. What does it mean to our fishermen in the smaller towns of Scotland? It means that you must either preserve the food supplies within reach of our ordinary fishing craft in the North Sea, or else you drive these fishermen to Aberdeen to enter the service of large capitalists, who can buy big ships with refrigerators to send to the White Sea and the coast of Morocco. That is practically what would be done. The Government have no right to lose sight of the interests of these fishermen. There are in Scotland 33,000 fishermen dependent upon drift and line fishing, and only 3,000 dependent upon trawling, and if something is not done to stop needless destruction the result will be to do away with these line fishermen altogether in the course of time. I think there are many arguments that might be adduced in favour of maintaining the independent position of the individual owner in smaller ports instead of driving him into the service of some big company in the large towns.

We have heard a great deal as to the advantage of peasant proprietorship and small landowners, and of preserving that class of people instead of preferring the interests of people with large holdings. We have done a great deal to preserve the condition of the small landholders, because we believe it is an important national question to encourage and increase their number. The same argument with ten-fold greater force can be used to promote the interests and increase the number of fishermen in the smaller towns of Scotland and Great Britain as a whole. I depart from that matter for a moment to turn to the question of State loans. I find in my own Constituency that the fishermen who are thrifty and economical, and have saved money and invested in drifters, are not very much in favour of the policy of State loans, but they have passed resolutions without dissent, I think, in favour of a policy of State loans, and therefore I am prepared to vote for the Resolution as it stands; but I say there are arguments upon the other side of the case, and these arguments ought to have due weight. The policy of State loans has been tried, and I believe out of £20,000 or £30,000 advanced years ago there has been incurred a bad debt of between £6,000 and £7,000, and that is not very encouraging. There is another point of view to be considered by those who advocate State loans, and it is that the conditions as to repayment at due date in the case of Government loans, are more cast-iron than with a local man, because there is far less sentiment on the part of the Government than on the part of the local banker. In Ireland the rate of repayment amounts to four-ninths of the earnings of the boat per annum, and that is a very stiff rate. In the next place, I am afraid the other creditors of that fisherman would get very little until the Government has been paid off. I am not clear that you would not encourage the ill-qualified man to embark in an enterprise he was not fit to carry through to a successful conclusion, and you would be doing some injury to those who have become the owners of their boats by increasing competition against them. But whether that be so or not, I think there is something in the idea. There are deserving cases, and for that reason I am prepared to support this proposal.

I asked the Secretary for Scotland the other day to consider the advisability of installing wireless telegraphy on the fishery cruisers. Not long ago I had experience of some illegal trawling only two miles from the shore, and the man who saw this trawler, if he had had any means of communication by wireless telegraphy, would have been able to report the matter, and the transgressor would probably have been caught. I think it is no answer on the part of the Government to say that it would cost money to instal wireless telegraphy on these cruisers. Of course it would, but in this matter we are behind other countries. In Japan wireless telegraphy has been installed all round the coast, and even the fishing boats are able to telegraph their catches to the shore. I do not see why our fishery cruisers who are detectives should not be furnished with every possible means of detecting crime, and there ought to be wireless telegraphy connecting them with certain shore stations.

I would like to say a word or two with regard to the great delays we experience when asking for Grants for harbours in Scotland. It seems to me absurd that if we wish to get a Grant for a harbour in Scotland we have first to go to the Treasury, who go to the Development Commissioners, and they refer the matter to the Board of Trade. Then the Board of Trade refer it to the Scottish Office, and the Scottish Office send it to the Fishery Board in Edinburgh. It comes back from the Fishery Board to the Local Government Board, and then some other Department connected with sewers and drains has to deal with it. The result is that people, not only lose all patience in connection with the matter, but this process costs a good deal of money, and it gives Scottish Members a great deal of unnecessary labour. I do think the Scottish Office ought to devise some means by which these people will not have to inquire in so many quarters in regard to a matter of this kind. When a local body asks for a Grant I think they ought to be told, "We think your case is a meritorious one, and we will investigate it." If they did, all well and good. On the other hand, they might say, "You have no case, and it is quite impossible to make you a Grant." Instead of that, you tell them nothing at all, and they have to promote a Provisional Order, which may cost several hundreds of pounds, before you tell them anything. I think the Scottish Office ought to take this matter up.

The Motion by the hon. Member for Argyllshire relates, in the first place, to the general question of the protection and development of Scottish fisheries; and, secondly, to the particular methods by means of which it is conceived that that end can be achieved. With regard to the general question of the protection and development of Scottish Fisheries, I want to say that it seems to me there are three impediments, all of which relate to the Fishery Board, which impair the protection which might be afforded to Scottish fisheries, which retard their development, and by the removal of which a great deal could be done to achieve the end we all desire. In. making these observations I do not wish to reflect upon the Fishery Board or any member of it, and certainly not upon its very competent chairman, with whom I have come into contact on fishing, matters, and from whom I have received the utmost courtesy and consideration. But, so far as the system is; concerned, I venture to submit to the House that, in the first place, the constitution of the Fishery Board is imperfect. In the second place, I think its powers are insufficient; and in the third place, its resources are inadequate.

So far as the constitution of the Fishery Board is concerned it numbers seven members. Three of them are the chairman, the legal member, and the scientific member, and the other four are supposed to be representative of certain interests. I am bound to say that I am at a loss to understand precisely what interests these four gentlemen I have mentioned represent. They certainly are not territorial representatives, because there is not a single member of the Fishery Board who represents any interest north of Buckie. Neither is the Board representative of all the interests which are concerned in fishing. So far as I know there is no bonâ fide representative of the line and drift net fishermen on the Board. I think the time has come when the number of members of that Board should be increased and an elective element should be introduced on the Board in order that the various fishing districts in Scotland should have their views and interests properly considered by the Board as a whole. Until that is done the Board will not command the confidence of the fishing community in Scotland, as we hope and desire it should do in the future. Further, I wish to state that in my opinion the resources of the Board are insufficient, more particularly in regard to facilities for detecting illegal trawling. Let there be no mistake about this matter. We are not attacking" the trawling industry, but the illegal pursuit of that industry in inshore waters. There are only five fishery cruisers, and they have to look after 1,500 miles of coast, to say nothing of the gulfs and bays round the coast. Under these circumstances it is not surprising that illegal trawling goes on unchecked in many quarters.

Not only this, but the fishermen's nets and gear are destroyed in the most ruthless fashion. It is not to the point, as the hon. Member for Grimsby seems to think, to quote the number of convictions obtained in Scotland for illegal trawling, because many of those who indulge in that pursuit are not convicted for the simple reason that there are not sufficient cruisers for the purpose. In that respect also the Fishery Board, as at present constituted, is imperfect. It really comes to this, that when the Government set up a Department of this sort it is its duty to arm its Executive with sufficient power to carry out the law. I am sure illegal trawling will never be checked properly until two alterations are made in the law. First of all, the penalties for illegal trawling should be increased; and, secondly, they should fall upon the right shoulders. There is a Bill before the House which I understand has been temporarily withdrawn on this subject, but I respectfully ask the Secretary for Scotland to consider whether he cannot give that measure his support, because I think it is largely non-contentious, and would effect the purpose to which I have referred. Further, the powers of the Fishery Board, as at present constituted, seem to me to be insufficient. There are two problems which have recently emerged, both of which the Board ought to tackle and neither of which they can tackle with the powers which they at present possess. One is the question of a close time for herring fishing, and the other is the question of herring trawling. With regard to a close time, I had the honour the other day of introducing a deputation to the Fishery Board on that subject, and three facts very plainly emerged. First of all, there is an urgent need for regulation in this matter, because at the present time the market is being flooded with immature herring, and the good name of the "Crown Brand" is being impaired in consequence. The second fact is that the fishermen of Scotland are substantially unanimous in asking that something should be done to remedy this difficulty. And the third fact is that this cannot be done by a voluntary agreement among the fishermen themselves. These three facts are very clear, and I venture to submit to the House, and to the Secretary for Scotland in particular, that some power should be conferred upon the Fishery Board which would enable them to impose a close time for herring fishing, and to regulate the time according to the various requirements along the Scotch coast. I am quite sure that would meet with the unanimous assent of Scotch fishermen, who, while no doubt differing as to the particular time during which the regulation should be enforced, are all agreed that such a regulation is urgently desired. Then there is the thorny question of herring trawling. It is regarded with the keenest anxiety by the Scotch fishermen, who see in this new development a serious menace to their industry. Whether it is to be done by international arrangement or by power conferred upon the Fishery Board, it is not for me to say, but I do take upon myself to say it is a problem deserving of the closest and most careful consideration by the Government at this juncture.

The second part of the Motion deals with the question of the extension of the Territorial Limit. One has to remember the limit was fixed thirty years ago and that the conditions have entirely changed since then. Trawling was in its infancy in 1882, when the North 'Sea Convention was entered into. At the two Conventions of Burghs meetings last year and this year in Edinburgh, conventions which included nearly all the cities and burghs in Scotland, a unanimous Resolution was passed calling the Government's attention to this matter. The county councils are also moving in the matter, and I am quite certain the Government will presently be presented with a unanimous demand from all the local authorities in Scotland to take this problem in hand. I know this is a difficult matter and it requires an international agreement, but I am quite certain the Powers concerned are not averse to reconsidering the situation. So far as loans to fishermen are concerned, no doubt the official answer is that a Commission is sitting upon the subject. I quite agree there is something to be said for as well as against the proposal. Allusion was made by my hon. Friend to the failure of that system when it was formerly tried in Scotland, but he and the House will remember that on that occasion sufficient care was not always taken to pick the proper men to whom to lend the money. There is also this to be said. They were not, in many cases, genuine fishermen. They were crofter fishermen, who had other interests to look after, and it by no means follows because on that occasion the system was not a success it would not be a success if attempted now. The Government cannot fail to observe what a complete success that system has been in Ireland, for I am given to understand that out of a sum of about £40,000 lent for this purpose only about £17 and a few odd shillings is returned as a bad debt. So far as these questions are concerned, I submit that the House would do well to press on the Government their consideration. I urge, as strongly as I can, the claims of these fishermen, who have been properly described to-night as a loyal and courageous class. I believe in my Constituency 90 per cent, of them are trained for the Naval Reserve. These men, year in and year out, honestly, conscientiously, constitutionally, and peaceably press their demands on the House, and I implore the Government not to turn a deaf ear to what seem to me, at any rate, to be very reasonable requests on their part.

I should like to call attention to the striking fact that the whole of this discussion has proceeded tonight, not as if this were a Parliament of the United Kingdom, but as if it were a parochial council, held at a time when Home Rule of a federal kind had already been granted to each corner of the Kingdom. The whole discussion to-night, with the exception of the speech of the hon. Member for Grimsby (Sir G. Doughty), has proceeded on purely parochial, purely mean, and purely personal lines; and when I say mean, I want to convey that the lines are not large. There are other aspects to consider than the benefit of particular villages on the Moray Firth. You have to consider the national question: you have to consider it from the point of view of fishing as it affects the United Kingdom as a whole. You have to consider whether the remedy which you propose, while it may benefit a part of Scotland, is not going to do incalculable harm to other fishing industries in the United Kingdom as well as to the consumer of fish.

First, let the House bear in mind that the main point criticised by this Resolution has turned on the alteration or extension of the territorial limit of three miles. As regards the relative importance of the fishing industry in England and Scotland it is quite agreed, I think, that trawling is mainly identified with English fishing, and long line and drift fishing are identified with Scotland. I agree there are trawlers at Aberdeen, but according to the latest statistics given me in answer to a question, in England there are 2,821 trawlers with a tonnage of 125,000, as compared with 299 trawlers in 'Scotland with 15,000 tonnage. Then as regards the population engaged in trawling, there are 20,000 in England as against 3,000 in Scotland, and in the latter country, too, 4,000 are engaged in line fishing. These are Government figures, given in answer to questions put by me. The point arises at once, that we have in this country nearly three times as much involved, in shipping and in people, as Scotland has in this particular industry. I am talking of people wholly engaged; the figures are correspondingly increased when you add occasionals, and people indirectly engaged. You have this point of departure, that England, as against Scotland, has a far larger stake in fishing.

The next point is that the question is an international one as well as national. You are dealing now, if you will, with the question between the United Kingdom and other countries. You have six people in this country to one in other countries engaged in the fishing industry. You have, therefore, to bear in mind that in making any alteration in territorial limits you are affecting, whether well or ill, a far larger number of people in this country than in any other country in the world. The next point is that if you alter the territorial limits you will inevitably get a corresponding alteration of territorial limits in other countries. If you are going to make it a thirteen-mile limit on this side, you will get a thirteen-mile limit in Germany, Denmark, and Holland, which means that whereas you have six miles at present, three of which only apply to you, withdrawn from fishing, you will have twenty-three if you have your way for the benefit of the line fishermen. Ninety per cent of the demersal fish that are taken to-day from this country are taken outside home waters. If you are going to limit home waters, and therefore limit the foreign territorial waters, you are going to limit the area from which you can take demersal fish, not only for your fishermen, but for your consumers, and you are doing it at the cost, not only of people engaged in fishing, but of the people who have to live upon it. For every square mile of fishing you take away you have six more men engaged in it than any other country; it applies to you six times more than to any other country, and on the other side you are going to catch six times more than you inflict upon the foreigner. There are the physical conditions to consider. Anybody who knows the North Sea and deep-sea fishing, knows that for nine months in the year you get a tendency to westerly winds. The consequence of that is, as any expert in fishery will tell you, that spawn tends to run easterly to the shores on the other side of the North Sea, to Germany, Denmark, Belgium and Holland, so that a closure on the one side is not only closing the ground to which the spawn are not inclined, but you are protecting by ten to one the foreigner, in addition to the six-fold protection I have already alluded to. You are protecting tenfold, because of physical circumstances, the foreigner who is getting the tendency of physical conditions to carry the spawn to his thirteen-mile area and away from yours. If you ask any expert in deep-sea fishery what an extension of territorial limits on the other side of the North Sea will mean as regards the legal catch brought to this country, you will be amazed and surprised, and you will never have the face to say that you care a word about cheap food for the people if you ask for an extension of the territorial limit. There is another physical difficulty. You can see the shore for three miles in bright weather. You can approximately place yourself without observation. When you talk about a ten or thirteen mile limit you are going to have your men, who after all are fishermen and not possessors of extra master's certificates, engaged in observation of the celestial bodies to ascertain whether they may or may not lower their gear. It is not a question merely of thirteen miles. Half way within it and half the days of the year no man in the world can say, without carefully calculated observation, whether he is or is not inside that particular limit. In dealing with it in that way you are dealing parochially, you are not dealing nationally, you are dealing from the point of view of a few privileged people. Hon. Members are told that in their particular localities particular demands are necessary to maintain particular industries. These demands proceed either from local, selfish prejudice or from a reluctance to adopt initiative and enterprise, and the whole of your trouble with your Moray Firths and Dungarvan Bays is not due at all to invasion by trawlers but to the fact that you are trying to prop up people who are not up to date, who are not adopting modern methods, by the props of legislation.

I abstained from making that suggestion, but it is true that Member after Member says that local conditions demand it because he is told they demand it, but if he studies the question from a national standpoint as against a local standpoint—that is, from the point of view of this country and foreign countries—there are two sides to the question, and when the Scottish Committee meet on a Wednesday evening and discuss from a purely Scottish standpoint matters which really affect national interests, it is really a pity that we have Wednesday nights at all, because this is a matter which is of primary national importance. The fishing industry of this country is of national importance. It is twice or thrice as great as that of Scotland, and yet we have introduced to-night, for purely Scottish and purely selfish purposes, a proposal for the extension of the territorial limit. That can only be a benefit to the line fisherman and the small island man whom you so pathetically sketch and want to protect. Three per cent, of the total catch of fish is produced by very small vessels within the three-mile limit. That is a small amount about which to waste your sentiment. Ninety per cent of your fish is taken outside foreign waters. The importance to you of having these foreign waters enlarged is immense, because you have six men engaged in fishing to one foreigner. If you extend your boundaries he will extend his. You are wrong when you effect to believe that Scotland is being unfairly treated in the matter of fishing. Scotland has been far more than fairly treated throughout fishery legislation. In 1907 you had a Committee, which recommended by two to one in favour of line fishing as against trawlers—recommendations which meant that no English industry could be considered unless it got the support of the Treasury delegates, and which were so wide that they differed from the unanimous resolution of all the experts of Europe. They were so wide that they were not acted upon. Scotland cannot say that in this matter it has been unfairly treated. When you come to the Development Commission, you find that it has been constituted with absolute disregard to English interests and with perfect regard to Scottish interests. You have a representative of the Scottish Fishery Board upon it. All that England has got is a representative of the Fishmongers' Company, as if that had anything to do with the matter. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who is the Scottish representative?"] Professor D'Arcy Thompson is one of the Advisory Committee to the Development Commissioners. I said he was a member of the Commission, but that was my mistake. I was referring to the Advisory Committee in relation to fisheries. Professor D'Arcy Thompson represents the Fishery Board of Scotland, but nobody represents England at all except the gentleman who represents the Fishmongers' Company, a gentleman against whom I have nothing to say. Scotland may well be content with the member of the Advisory Committee. The gentleman who presides over it has made Scotland's alleged grievance in this matter his own. Fie was Chairman of the Committee in 1907, and he was one of the deputation in 190S who asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to maintain conditions which had been universally condemned. Scotland is perfectly represented in anything where money is to be got. The constituent part of the United Kingdom which has been entirely neglected is England.

It is usual upon these occasions to hear of all the things we want, and nothing of the things we receive. I think it is perhaps my duty to make some reference to what has been done recently for the development and encouragement of fisheries in Scotland. With regard to the Fishery Board, remarks were made both by the Mover and Seconder of the Motion. My hon. Friend the Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Ainsworth) seemed to be of opinion that it would be a good thing if we followed the English model and created a Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. For my part, I should be inclined to adopt a more independent attitude. I should not recommend that. Our new Board of Agriculture has extremely important work to do in developing the operations under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act. We want for that work a class of men who are quite different from the class of men we want to deal with fisheries. I am afraid that the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Argyllshire is not one which I can recommend. The hon. Member for St. Andrews (Major Anstruther-Gray) made one of his principal claims that more money should be given to the Board of Fisheries, and I am not in the least surprised that he made that claim, because he has the most extraordinary notion of the money which is actually at the disposal of that Board. He told us it was only £3,000 a year. Why, that amount is spent on every one of the five fishery cruisers. Fifteen thousand pounds is spent on those cruisers alone. Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman really think that the Fishery Board was so economically endowed that it managed its own affairs and ran five fishery cruisers on £3,000 a year? No wonder he thought that more money ought to be given to that Board.

I did not suppose that £3,000 was the only sum. I think that hitherto administratively they have had £3,000 for the improvement of harbours and such like which I certainly ought to have mentioned, but I did not think that £3,000 was the only with that sum they could not have done half their work. At the same time they have not half enough money.

Will the hon. Gentleman be surprised to hear that, the amount of the Estimates is over £24,000, that the £15,000 for the cruisers is an additional sum, and that altogether the Fishery Board spends something like £40,000 a year instead of £3,000 a year? Then the hon. Member refers to harbours. Has he never heard a word about the money which is being found by the Development Commission for harbours in Scotland? Not a single Member has even referred to it. [An HON, MEMBER: "We have not got it,"] The hon. Member thinks that because he has not got it yet it ought not to be referred to. If I were interested in an object and knew that I was getting for one particular harbour a sum of about £35,000, that I was promised it by the Government, I would certainly think the matter worth mentioning, even though I did not have the sovereigns in the bank.

What I eighteen complained of was waiting months without a reply.

The hon. Member might have also given a little acknowledgment to the Government who found the money for the Development Commission. He never mentioned it.

If the hon. Member interrupts me every moment I shall not be able to deal with the matters to which I wish to refer. The hon. Member's position is: he is interested in certain harbours in Fife. The Secretary for Scotland has appointed an engineer to consider to which of these harbours he is to give support and encouragement.

The hon. Member had a full opportunity of explaining his views, and he should allow the right hon. Gentleman to proceed with his speech.

My hon. Friend the Member for Elgin and Nairn (Sir A. Williamson) also complained of delay, but he did not inform the House that one of the reasons of the delay in the case of Lossiemouth, in which he is specially interested, is that there is no public authority at Lossiemouth to which the Development Commissioners could make a Grant. I hope that in a short time there will be; but it is not quite fair to complain of delay, and not mention the cause of the delay. I find that from the Development Fund Grants have already been promised. First, Buckie £33,000, and another £2,000 from the Fishery Board, that is part Grant and part loan; Stonehaven £6,500 loans, and £7,000 Grant; Port Seton £l,250; Wick £15,000 and then there are the five harbours, and other cases, for which the amounts are not yet settled. If we are considering the encouragement by the Government of the fisheries of Scotland surely it is relevant to mention those facts. They are not insubstantial sums of money. The hon. Member never mentioned one of them. He gave the House to understand that £3,000 was the total sum which a miserly Government was spending on fisheries in Scotland. There is one subject to which I will refer, because it has not been mentioned. I have received a petition from my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries-shire, who is interested in the Solway fishery, and he asked me what the Fishery Board has done with regard to the white fishing question, and the question of "whammeling."

With regard to the white fishing question, the Fishery Board have appointed a Commission to try to effect a settlement by agreement, and I am glad to say, from what I hear from the Fishery Board, that they are hopeful of effecting a settlement. With regard to the other question, we have been approached on that subject, and we are quite willing to appoint a Committee to see whether we cannot arrive at an agreement on that subject also. One very vexed question raised to-night is that of loans to fishermen, and my hon. Friend the Member for Elgin and Nairn gave a very halting and tepid encouragement to the idea. He said he would vote for the Resolution, but he recognised that a great many of the fishermen of Scotland were not enamoured of the idea. I daresay there is a great deal to be said on both sides of the question, but I do not think it is desirable that I should mention any conclusion to-night, because a Committee has been appointed by my predecessor to consider this and other important questions, and I think we ought to wait before discussing it until we receive the conclusion of the Committee. That is one of the subjects which is referred to it for consideration. The last subject, and the most difficult, which has been dealt with by most speakers is the question of the three-mile limit. That is a question which I have had occasion to approach, not only from the point of view of my present office, but from the point of view of the Foreign Office. I must ask my hon. Friends to recognise that it is a complicated and difficult question, which has to be looked at from more than one point of view.

As the House is aware, some time ago Russia endeavoured to extend the limits in the White Sea and its neighbourhood, and very strong representations were made to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs that this was extremely prejudicial to the fishing interests of this country, as there was very considerable fishing, largely flat fish in the neighbourhood, and it is an important source of supply of that kind of fish. That question is under discussion between the two Governments. We have proposed that a Conference should be held and this matter discussed. I do not think under the circumstances, one can very well go into all the arguments on either side of the question because the matter is not arranged. There is no doubt we have two interests. If we could protect our own shores and have a free hand on other people's shores it might be entirely desirable and please everybody here, but I am afraid it would not give satisfaction in other parts of the world; and we have to look at this matter and strike a balance as to advantage. Nor can we deal with this matter from the point of view of our shore fishing. The hon. Member who moved this Resolution said very truly that this is an exclusively important Scottish industry, and that it produces a fine and valuable race of men I agree with every word he said about that. It is a large industry. The Scottish fishermen brought ashore eight hundred million hundredweight of fish last year, of the value of over three million pounds sterling.

I can assure my hon. Friend that no one who occupies my position, or who knows Scotland and the coast of Scotland as well as I do, could be indifferent to the interests of all branches of the fishing in that country. But what I want to point out to the House to-night is, that we have not been indifferent, and that the fishing has been receiving help. Very considerable sums of money have gone to the assistance of the harbours. That is an expenditure of money which, whatever may be thought of other expenditures, is not open to serious objection. That pauperises nobody, that is a national benefit, and I think we may look upon that expenditure with entire satisfaction. My hon. Friend the Member for Elgin and Nairn, and another hon. Member, mentioned the question of wireless telegraphy. There is no doubt it would be advantageous if one had wireless telegraphy, but I must point out that we would have to put up a good many land stations, with a special staff of men to deal with the matter, and that it would involve very considerable changes in the construction of our fishery cruisers, and that it would be a matter not of a moderate, but very large expenditure. At the present moment I really could not promise that we could undertake the installation he desires, though I admit, of course, that it would be advantageous for the capture of trawlers which were poaching. The hon. Member made a very singular statement. He said our fishery cruisers went at half the speed of trawlers. There is not one of them that does not travel as fast as the trawlers. I quite admit that if they went twice as fast they might catch more trawlers, but I should like to say at once, do not let us have exaggerated statements of that kind sent forth to the public.

There was one other topic to which I must refer, and that is the question of a close time. The hon. Member who mentioned it told us that there was a difference of opinion, and I believe when neighbouring fishermen considered this question they were at one another's throats, having entirely different opinions on the subject. That is not a matter that has escaped the attention of the Fishery Board of Scotland. They have considered it. They made inquiries, and I am bound to-say that the information they received was entirely different from the statement of one of my hon. Friends, who said he thought the fishermen were unanimous on this subject, because they discovered there was the greatest difference of opinion. I know that always was the case.

There is certainly on the West Coast. I believe it exists on the East Coast also. You cannot legislate in these matters apart from-public opinion, and one of the difficulties in Scotland is that there is a very great deal of difference of opinion among people engaged in the industry, not only difference of opinion on broad lines between trawlers and line fishermen, but difference of opinion between different classes of fishermen in different parts of the country. They differ in their opinion as to the causes which bring a plentiful supply of herrings or send herrings away; in fact, that is one of the mysteries. Sixty-years ago Thomas Carlyle remarked that no one could understand the migration of the herring, and I believe no one understands it to-day. The distress to which my hon. Friend referred is due to the-migration of the herring and not to any lack of industry on the part of the fishermen. The change in the quantity of flat fish to which another Member referred is a matter with which the Fishery Board cannot deal. We cannot sow flounders on the bottom of the sea, and we cannot control the changes of supply of these fish which depend upon natural causes. I do not think any case has been made out, either of indifference towards the fishing industry or of neglect of the industry in Scotland. As a mater of fact, it has received more pecuniary support and promise of support in the last two or three-years than ever before.

I think, after the Debate we have had, it would be in every way undesirable to proceed further with. my Motion. But there are two things that are not thoroughly grasped by those who oppose this Motion or by my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland. We say nothing against trawling or any other kind of fishing that may be adopted. But we say that no kind of fishing ought to be permitted which destroys, interferes with, or damages the spawning grounds, or destroys an enormous number of immature fish. Can anybody contradict that? That being the case—

I understood that the hon. Member rose to ask leave to withdraw.

I will only express the hope that my right hon. Friend will create out of the Fishery Board a Board on the lines that have been suggested. I ask leave to withdraw.

This Resolution is nothing else but rank Protection of the vilest character. I am utterly astonished that any Members professing Free Trade principles should introduce such a proposal. They speak of "protecting and developing" That is exactly the case of the Tariff Reformers who want to "protect and develop" interests in this country. Then they talk about exclusive fishing. That is exclusive dealing a preference to be given to some of our own people, I suppose. We have the trade of the world largely in the hands of this Kingdom to a larger extent than any country ever had it before. Really why we should go out of our way to palter with our principles, and to publish to the world that we are prepared in one industry to welcome the principle of Protection, passes my comprehension.

Debate to be rsumed to-morrow (Thursday.)

And, it being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.

Adjourned at Three minutes after Eleven o'clock.