House of Commons
Monday, April 22, 1912
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with), —Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Beading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Penwortham Bridge Bill [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.
Central Argentine Railway Bill [ Lords ],
Considered; to be read the third time.
Bedwellty Urban District Council Bill (by Order),
Read the third time, and passed.
Gas and Water Provisional Orders Bill,
"To confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under The Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Hatfield (Yorks) Gas, Swansea Gas, West Kent Gas, and Elham Valley Water." Presented by Mr. ROBERTSON; supported by Mr. Sydney Buxton; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed.
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill,
Petition for additional Provision; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Staffordshire Potteries Water Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Railways Bill
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 19th April; Mr. Sydney Buxton ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 100.]
Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Vaccination (Scotland)
Copy presented of the Fifty-seventh Annual Report on the Births, Deaths, and Marriages in Scotland for 1911 and Forty-seventh Annual Report on Vaccination [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Prisons (Scotland)
Copy presented of Rules, dated 18th April, 1912, made by the Secretary for Scotland for persons undergoing Preventive Detention in Scotland [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 101.]
British Museum
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 22nd February; Sir William Anson ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 102.]
Superannuation Act, 1887
Copy presented of Treasury Minute, dated 8th April, 1912, granting a Retired Allowance to Mr. Donald M'P. Grant, Assistant Naval Store Officer, Chatham Yard, Admiralty, [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Public Trustee (Rules)
Copy presented of the Public Trustee Rules, 1912, dated 15th April, 1912 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copies presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 4849 to 4851 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries
Copy presented of Annual Report for 1911 of Proceedings under the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908, and other Acts. Part I. (Small Holdings) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries (Ordnance Survey Staff)
Copies presented of Minutes of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries upon the Report of the Departmental Committee appointed in June, 1910, to inquire into the Pay and Classification of the Ordnance Surrey Staff, Revised Scales of Pay, 1912 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Standing Committees
Ordered, That all Standing Committees have leave to print and circulate with the Votes the Minutes of their Proceedings and any amended Clauses of Bill committed to them.—[ Mr. Eugene Wason. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
International Exhibition (Ghent)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he was aware that an international exhibition was to be held at Ghent, Belgium, next year, commencing at the end of April; whether the exhibitions branch of the Board of Trade had yet decided to make a grant; and, if not, would he endeavour to obtain an early decision on that point, in view of the fact that the representative of the Belgium authorities in this country is apparently unable to allocate space to British traders until that decision had been given?
An invitation to participate officially in this exhibition has been received, and the matter is at present under consideration. I hope that a decision will be arrived at at an early date.
On what date were the communications received?
Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice.
I have already given notice. That is the object of the question, to know why the delay has taken place.
The hon. Member did not ask me the date.
Midland Great Western Railway (Ireland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention had been called to the excessive hours a number of engine-drivers, firemen, and guards were kept on duty by the Midland Great Western Railway (Ireland) since the 1st of March up to the present time this year; and if he would call for a return from this company of the actual hours on duty of trainmen for this time, and also ask for the number of men available, but laid idle, on the days excessive time was worked by other men?
I have received no complaint in this matter, but if my hon. Friend will furnish specific instances of the long hours in question I will cause inquiry to be made.
London Parks (Games)
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works whether it is proposed where necessary to extend the facilities given for playing games in the Royal parks?
The First Commissioner is in sympathy with any proposal to extend the facilities for playing games in the Royal parks so long as no harm is done to the grass and the comfort of the public is not interfered with. Experiments to this end have been made during the last six months.
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether his attention has been called to the extent to which parks under the control of the London County Council are utilised to promote the physical welfare of the young by means of outdoor gymnasia and organised games; and whether he will take steps to secure that the Royal parks in London shall be used as extensively and as advantageously to the youth of London?
The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. Steps have already been taken to make use of the Royal parks for children's games; and the First Commissioner is anxious to extend these facilities as much as possible. He believes that all the requirements of the London Education Authority have so far been met, but will favourably consider any further request which they make.
asked the President of the Board of Education if the spaces allotted to games for London school children in Hyde Park and Regent's Park are available for each school on every day of the week; if not, how often can each school obtain a pitch; and if he is satisfied with the adequacy of the arrangements and of the space provided?
I am informed that the arrangements with reference to the provision of spaces in Hyde Park and Regent's Park for games for London school children for this year are not yet complete, but that no difficulties are anticipated. I may refer the hon. Member to the statement given by the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East to the Noble Lord the Member for Bath on Thursday last, that the First Commissioner of Works would be glad to consider favourably any request by the London Education Authority for more ground. I understand that ten departments asked for pitches in Hyde Park during 1911—two for three times a week, two for twice a week, and six for once a week. Thirty-one departments asked for pitches in Regent's Park—two for four times a week, three for three times a week, seven for twice a week, and the remainder for once a week. The accommodation required was provided for all the schools from which applications were received.
King's Bench Division (Saturday Sittings)
asked the Attorney-General if he will state what judges in the King's Bench Division have sat on Saturdays, and on what Saturdays, since the Prime Minister promised last Session that such a course would be taken; and whether the appointment of two additional judges last year had the effect of overtaking the arrears in the King's Bench Division, as promised; and, if not, will he explain why?
The judges of the King's Bench Division have sat on Saturdays whenever it was possible. When on circuit, which occupies about half the time of the judges, they sit on Saturdays and generally throughout the whole day except when travelling from one circuit town to another. In London those judges who are not engaged in the work of the Court of Criminal Appeal sit on Saturdays unless arrangements have been made for giving extra time on the preceding days of the week. Further, it not infrequently happens that judges sit late on Fridays in order to save expense and to relieve the jurors and the parties and witnesses from the necessity of attending on Saturday. The appointment of two additional judges resulted in a marked overtaking of the arrears in the King's Bench Division until Hilary Sittings of this year, when arrears again commenced to accumulate, the explanation being the death of one judge and the illness of another, who has since resigned, and the temporary illness of the Lord Chief Justice.
I asked for the dates when the judges of the King's Bench Division actually sat, not the excuse for not sitting.
The explanation I gave was in answer to the question why the arrears had not been overtaken, if in fact they have not been reduced so as to extinguish them altogether. The answer to the first part of the question it is impossible to give in detail, because some of the judges are sitting in London, some are on circuit, and some are engaged in the work of the Court of Criminal Appeal on Saturdays. It is impossible to give a detailed list with regard to each judge. I could tell the hon. Member on what days they sat in Court on Saturdays in London, but that will not give him the information which he requires.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give me that information?
Certainly, if the hon. Member will put a question down as to the London sittings I can give him that information. It is the other which I cannot give.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on a recent occasion no fewer than three of His Majesty's judges sat till nine o'clock at night for the purpose of completing a, case in which I was concerned?
Royal Navy
H.M.S. "Monakch."
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if His Majesty's ship "Monarch" has left the builders' yard on the Tyne, if so, when; whether this ship has run her final acceptance trials and has been taken over by His Majesty's Government, if so, can he say when the trials took place?
The "Monarch" left the builders' yard on 28th March, and completed acceptance trials on passage south. The vessel is practically ready for service, but a few items in respect of the contract are not yet fully complete.
Royal Dockyards (Cost of Living)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the cost of living generally for working men and artisans in Queenstown is about the same as in Sheerness, Chatham, Portsmouth, and Devonport; and, if so, will he explain how, under these circumstances, a lower rate of wages is paid in the Government dockyard in the first-named place; and whether he will take immediate steps to remedy the complaint of the workers there?
As the hon. Gentleman was informed on 28th February, the rates of pay prevailing in the dockyard at Haul-bowline appear to compare favourably with those for outside local labour of a similar character.
Can the right hon. Gentleman see his way to make fresh inquiries into the matter?
The matter is now before the Board of Admiralty. Of course the result will be communicated in due course.
Did I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say, with regard to the dockyard at Devonport, that the price paid for labour compares favourably with the price paid in other localities?
The question here specifically relates to Haulbowline. If the hon. Member wishes me to make any inquiry in regard to Devonport I shall be glad to do so.
Questions
Elementary Schools (Medical Inspection Grants)
asked on what basis Grants to be made by the Board of Education to local education authorities in respect of medical inspection work carried on by those authorities will be calculated?
Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to refer him to the regulations and the circular which were recently issued on this subject, copies of which I am sending him.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if it is not a fact that these regulations do not lay down any fixed rate of payment, and that the question of payment or no payment, and the rate of payment, if any, is left to the Board of Education?
I am aware that the facts are somewhat analogous to what is stated by the hon. Member, but I am quite unable to commit myself to any scale of Grants until I have seen all the claims that may be presented.
Cinematograph Pictures
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the statements made by the Hull stipendiary magistrate that there has recently been an extraordinary increase in juvenile crime traceable to melodramatic films shown at picture palaces, and the evidence of the detective tracing to this cause the crime of four schoolboys, who purchased revolvers and committed burglaries in Hull; whether he has evidence from magistrates or police in other places confirming these statements as to the vicious effect of certain cinematograph exhibits; whether he proposes to institute an inquiry into this matter; and whether he proposes to introduce legislation dealing with the evil into this House?
:I am informed by the chief constable of Hull that the four boys recently charged with housebreaking stated, while they were in the remand home, that their proceedings were suggested by cinematograph pictures, and that the stipendiary magistrate remarked that he wondered whether the increase of juvenile crime that had been noticed was in any part due to the influence of these pictures. One or two other reports have been received in the Home Office which suggest that films representing crime are sometimes exhibited which have a demoralising effect on young persons who see them. I recently received a deputation from the principal makers of films on the question of the formation of a committee by the manufacturers, with the duty of examining all films before they are used. I understand that such a committee is in course of formation, and I am not without hope that good may result. I do not see my way to propose legislation for the establishment of an official censorship.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will give some consideration to the low class of literature which is distributed so widely, and which is even more pernicious in its effect than the pictures?
Yes, Sir, I will do so.
Reformatory and Industrial Schools
asked when the Report of the Departmental Committee on Reformatory and Industrial Schools will be issued?
I understand that the Committee will probably not be in a position to report until the autumn.
asked the Home Secretary what steps he proposes to take to find accommodation in industrial schools for the girls now under remand in the remand homes of the London County Council?
The London County Council, and not the Home Office, is the authority responsible, under the Children Act, for finding accommodation for girls committed to industrial schools who reside in the county of London. I have given approval to several proposals made by the London County Council and intended to meet, to some extent, the difficulty that has arisen; and plans for providing additional accommodation, partly in a new temporary school and partly by the enlargement of an existing school, have recently been submitted by the council, and have been approved by me.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the stipendiary magistrates in London asked that these facts should be brought to the notice of the Home Secretary by report?
Yes, Sir; I believe I remember seeing the report of the case in question.
Suffragists in Prison
asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been drawn to the charge made by Miss Sylvia Pank-hurst that in dozens of cases forcible feeding of suffragist prisoners have been accompanied by wanton and unnecessary cruelty; that women have been thrown into dark, damp, and unwholesome cells; and that they have been handcuffed, frog-marched, beaten, and bruised; if there is any substance or foundation for these statements; and, if not, if he will take steps to protect the prison authorities and officials from charges of this character?
The letter to which my hon. Friend refers is a tissue of falsehood. Every charge of cruelty or unnecessary violence brought against the prison officers in terms sufficiently definite to permit of investigation has been investigated and found to be untrue. Where forcible feeding has been necessary it has been carried out with as little use of force and as much gentleness as the conduct of the prisoners would permit. No woman has been thrown into dark, damp, or unwholesome cells. No woman has been handcuffed, except where that was the only way to prevent her breaking her windows or furniture. No woman has been frog-marched, beaten, or bruised. It is a disgraceful thing that these accusations against subordinate officers of the Prison Service should be repeated after they have been investigated and disproved; but I trust that the public will not attach any weight to charges carefully made in such general terms as to prevent the possibility of legal proceedings being taken against those responsible for the falsehoods.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the reply we have just heard applies to London prisons only or to the prisons throughout the country, and whether he is aware that substantial evidence to prove such statements exists, and that one lady prisoner actually obtained damages owing to the great injustice of her treatment referred to in the question?
When, Sir? The hon. Gentleman has failed to mention the time when the lady was imprisoned.
It was in 1909 or 1910. I have got the information in my pocket. The information is detailed and specific. I think the right hon. Gentleman received a copy of it.
The case was some time ago, and the lady did not receive damages in respect of any one of the charges mentioned in this particular question. There is no evidence at the present time that there is the slightest ground for any of the charges made in the letter.
May I ask whether the reply refers to the London prisons or to the prisons of the country, and whether, in view of the gravity of the statements now made, a committee will be appointed, apart from the officials, to investigate these things?
The statement refers to the prisons all over the country. I do not understand that there is any serious dispute of the statement I have made.
The letter to which I referred is dated 30th April, and it referred to Aylesbury prison.
I understand that to be the case to which my hon. Friend referred, and I am happy to be able to say that there is no truth at all in the statements.
asked the Home Secretary whether he will make a statement giving the latest information showing any changes in treatment that had been made or were in contemplation concerning the suffragists who are being forcibly fed?
On representations made to me by the Chairman of the London Quarter Sessions I have allowed all the women now in prison for window breaking the privileges of Rule 243a, subject to certain modifications which I stated last Wednesday in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley. All these prisoners are now taking their food in the natural way.
"Syndicalist" Convictions
asked the Home Secretary what are the privileges at present enjoyed by Mr. Guy Bowman which he could not have received had he remained a prisoner serving a term of imprisonment with hard labour?
When the hard labour imposed as part of this prisoner's sentence was remitted he passed into the third division. His separate confinement, which would have lasted for twenty-eight days, ceased; and he was employed, in association, on industrial work and for somewhat shorter hours than those of a hard labour prisoner.
May I ask if this man wears prison clothes and has no privilege at all other than what the right hon. Gentleman has just stated?
The prisoner, who is in. the third division, wears prison clothes, and serves under the rules applicable to prisoners in that division.
Mr. E. T. Hooley's Imprisonment
asked the Home Secretary if he will state in what division of the prison at Brixton Mr. E. T. Hooley is confined, and what are the precise privileges enjoyed by this, prisoner which persons confined in lower divisions are not entitled to receive; and if Mr. Hooley is able to carry on his business and has full facilities for correspondence necessary to carry on his business?
Mr. E. T. Hooley is confined at Wormwood Scrubs prison in the part of the prison in which the other second division prisoners are confined. He enjoys no privileges beyond those laid down in the rules for second division prisoners, namely, the wearing of prison clothing of a different colour, associated labour from the beginning of the sentence, and receiving letters and visits at intervals of one month. He has no facilities for carrying on his business, nor for correspondence other than the letters allowed by the rules.
Benbecula Mails
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that the inhabitants of Benbecula sent a petition to the Prime Minister asking him to have the inadequate postal service of mails for Benbecula improved, he can see his way to grant an independent inquiry as to improving the mail service of Benbecula?
I do not quite understand what kind of inquiry is suggested by the hon. Member. I have already had full inquiry made by impartial officers of my Department concerning the several proposals put forward by the hon. Member and the inhabitants of Benbecula for the improvement of the mail service.
asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that the mail steamers go daily past Loch Skip-port within two or three miles of the pier, and that Loch Skipport is sheltered and easy of access, he can see his way to have the Benbecula mails landed and taken off three days a week at this pier, to which there is a road?
I have called for a report upon this suggestion, and will communicate with the hon. Member.
Auxiliary Postman (Shifnal)
asked why A. Heywood, late auxiliary postman at Shifnal, was discharged recently from Government employ; whether for misdemeanour, and, if so, what; how many years' service he had served under the Government; whether, previous to his discharge, there had been anything against his character; and what evidence of misdemeanour was brought up against him?
Mr. Heywood had been employed for a little more than four years on the part-time duty of an auxiliary postman. His record up to December last was good, but a complaint was then made by the hon. Member that a number of halfpenny packets, out of some 12,000 sent by him, had not been delivered. It was found on inquiry that all the packets in question were packets which would fall to be delivered by Mr. Heywood, and in these circumstances it was necessary to dispense with his services.
Will the right hon. Gentleman go somewhat further into the case and see whether there are any specific charges against the postman in question beyond that to which he has referred?
I have made full inquiry in this case. The dismissal rests upon this matter.
Wireless Telegraph Stations
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the cost of the working of the wireless station at Bowden, Jamaica, in the past year; and whether the working resulted in a profit or loss, and, if so, what was the amount of such profit or loss?
I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the last sentence of the reply which I gave on the 27th March to his inquiry as to the cost of maintaining the Jamaica station.
When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be in a position to make a statement in reply to the question?
It is a private enterprise of which I know nothing.
asked the receipts and expenditure on the Trinidad-Tobago wireless system for 1910–11?
The revenue received from the Government wireless stations in Trinidad and Tobago during the year 1910–1911 amounted to £292, and the expenditure to £922.
Land Valuation (Ireland)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of copies of Form IV. that have been distributed to date in Ireland; how many of such forms have been returned giving the information asked for; and how many provisional valuations have been served on and accepted by owners of Irish hereditaments to date?
The number of copies of Form IV. that have been distributed in Ireland up to date is approximately 200,000. Of these 90,000 have been returned wholly or partially filled up. The number of provisional valuations issued is 6,400. I cannot say how many of these have been finally accepted.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the Irish Land Valuation Department will not be a reserved service under the terms of the Government of Ireland Bill, and that dislike to those Clauses imposing taxes on land in the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, has been expressed by authoritative Nationalist opinion in Ireland, it is his intention to proceed with the general revaluation of Irish hereditaments pursuant to Section 26 of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910?
It is not proposed to suspend the valuation of Irish hereditaments under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910.
Is there any chance of this valuation being finished by September, 1914.
I take it that it will be finished about the same time as the valuation in this country, which I expect to take about five years altogether.
Will the right hon. Gentleman promise to expedite this valuation in Ireland and Great Britain?
It has been expedited, as has been already pointed out, and there has been an increase in the staff.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that they are actually making some of the valuations without sending out Form IV. at all, and that, when made, there is no appeal?
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would give me particulars.
asked why stone sold for building purposes to persons engaged in private enterprise is exempt from Mineral Rights Duty whilst stone sold for the public purpose of road making is not exempt; and what is the principle which governs such differentiation.
The hon. Member is under some misapprehension. No such differentiation as that suggested by him exists.
National Insurance Act
Sanatoria
asked whether, in view of the fact that there are about 300,000 people in the United Kingdom suffering from consumption every year, how many consumptive people will have been provided with beds in the Government sanatoriums at the end of three years after the National Insurance Act has come into operation?
I have no reason to anticipate that within the period named by the hon. Member beds will not have been provided in sanatoria for all cases for which such treatment is found necessary. Other forms of treatment, either institutional or otherwise, will be provided for other cases according to their respective requirements. I should add that the Act does not contemplate the provision of sanatoria by the Government, but by the county councils and other local bodies, with the assistance of the Grant which Parliament has made for the purpose under the conditions laid down in Section 64 of the Act.
Does the hon. Gentleman think that there will be sufficient accommodation for all the consumptive people of the country at the end of three years?
For all those who need special sanatorium treatment.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury what was the nature of the special sanatoria benefit, other than treatment in sanatoria not there provided, which he hoped would be available for assured persons entitled to such benefit on 16th July, 1912?
Arrangements are under consideration for giving from 15th July onwards, to insured persons suffering from tuberculosis who are not treated in sanatoria, such special treatment in other institutions or otherwise as their cases severally require. No announcement, however, as to the precise character of these arrangements can usefully be made pending the consideration of the report of the Tuberculosis Committee, the issue of which is expected within the next few days.
Is the hon. Member in a position to assure the House and those people that sanatorium benefits of the kind promised will be available at the date promised?
A very considerable amount of sanatorium benefit will be available from 15th July onwards. I would suggest that the hon. Member should consult the Report, which I hope will be put this week, then probably he will be satisfied in the matter.
Would the hon. Member say what steps are being taken to stimulate the action of the county councils with regard to the provision of sanatoria?
I think the Commissioners are in communication with the county councils on the matter.
Approved Societies (Agbicultural Labourers)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury what steps, if any, were being taken by the Insurance Commission by means of literature, or otherwise, to spread knowledge of the National Insurance Act in rural and agricultural districts, and to encourage the formation of special approved societies for agricultural labourers in such districts?
Courses of lectures in agricultural centres are being arranged to which secretaries of rural friendly and other societies are invited. Lecturers are also making tours and addressing series of meetings in certain rural districts. In addition, leaflets dealing with small societies are being sent for distribution to ministers of religion of all denominations in villages and smaller towns. The Commission cannot take the initiative in the formation of new societies, but (will consider all applications from those who desire to form them for the assistance of lecturers or leaflets in explaining the requirements of the Act.
Will the hon. Member see that instructions are issued stating clearly what contributions employers and employed have to pay where wages are below 15s. a week?
That is one of the subjects that are engaging the attention of the Commissioners at this time.
Administration (Ireland)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, at the time that the provisions of the National Insurance Act relating to Ireland were framed, any undertaking was given to any persons that under the proposed Government of Ireland Bill the cost of administering the Act in Ireland would remain a charge upon the Imperial Exchequer.
The answer is in the negative.
Under the circumstances, will the Government take into consideration the amending of the Insurance Act so as to bring the conditions in the two countries into harmony?
That was done last year while the Bill was being considered.
Government of Ireland Bill
Loans
asked the Prime Minister if the power to raise loans conferred by the Government of Ireland Bill on the Irish Parliament is to be limited in amount; and, if such loans are issued by the Joint Exchequer Board, will this country assume any liability for the due payment of the interest and sinking fund on such loans?
The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative. It should, however, be observed that the Bill does not propose to lay upon the Joint Exchequer Board any obligation to issue loans.
Sugar and Tobacco (Excise Duty)
asked, in view of the fact that the Irish Parliament will have power to relieve the growers and manufacturers of sugar and tobacco in Ireland of any or all Excise Duty, whether manufactured sugar and manufactured tobacco imported into Ireland from Great Britain or from other countries will be charged more in Import Duty at Irish ports than the rate paid in Excise Duty in Ireland?
The answer is in the negative. The hon. Member will see that the point is dealt with as respects articles sent from Great Britain into Ireland by Clause 16 of the Bill, and as respects articles imported into Ireland from abroad by Clause 15 (1) ( d ).
Am I to understand that the Irish Government will have no power of reducing the Excise Duties on tobacco and sugar without also reducing the Import Duties?
Limitation of Powers
asked whether the Government of Ireland Bill prevents the Irish Parliament from granting bounties, modifying the Imperial factory laws as to conditions and hours of labour, or instituting a system of commercial travellers' licences which might be employed to give advantages to Irish commerce and industry not enjoyed by their competitors from Great Britain?
Generally speaking, the answer to this question is in the negative. The details of the question are matters for discussion in Committee.
Customs and Excise
asked whether an Irish Parliament, in the exercise of the powers under the Government of Ireland Bill, would be able to impose higher Customs Duties on foreign than on British or Imperial imports; and will the Excise limitation of Section 15 (1) ( d ) apply in respect of the duty on foreign or British imports?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, Clause 15 (1) ( d ) applies to foreign and Colonial imports. Imports from Great Britain are put on an equality with Irish products by Clause 16.
asked whether Section 15 (1) ( d ) of the Government of Ireland Bill, in regard to the relation between Irish Customs and Excise, would restrict the fiscal power of an Irish Parliament even if the Imperial Parliament should hereafter impose any Customs Duty without any corresponding Excise Duty?
The answer is in the affirmative, subject, of course, to the powers of the Imperial Parliament to alter the provision in question.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will treat the questions with regard to the Home Rule Bill in the same way as questions with regard to the Insurance Act, and try and keep them together in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
I think that is a very admirable suggestion, and I will inquire about it.
Eligibility of British Membees of Parliament
asked the Prime Minister whether and, if so, under what Clause of the Government of Ireland Bill are British Members of the Imperial House of Commons precluded from standing as candidates for or sitting in the Irish House of Commons?
The Bill does not prohibit Members of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom from sitting in the Irish House of Commons.
Irish House of Commons (Speaker)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government of Ireland Bill contains any provision and, if so, in what Clause for the appointment of a Speaker or Chairman of the Irish House of Commons; and whether the Irish Lord Chancellor or a judge of the Irish High Court of Justice can occupy this position?
It is not necessary to confer on the Irish House of Commons the power to appoint a Speaker or Chairman, which is inherent in any public assembly. Under Sub-section (2) of Clause 12 of the Bill a judge is disqualified from sitting in the House.
Payment of Members (Irish Parliament)
asked whether payment of Members will be allowed in the Irish Parliament; and, if so, whether the payment will be made out of moneys provided by the British taxpayer?
There is nothing to prevent the Irish Parliament paying its Members, if it thinks fit, but this will not affect the British taxpayer.
Questions
Enclosure Acts (Commens)
asked whether the Prime Minister is aware that large commons, in most parts of the country, which enabled small farmers and yeomen to exist and flourish, where now only large farms are to be found, were enclosed under the Enclosure Acts and in many cases transferred to ecclesiastical benefices, and that these lands are now held by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; and whether he will so frame the Welsh Disestablishment Bill that such lands in "Wales may be ultimately available for the maintenance of small agricultural holders?
The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. I am unable to add anything to the replies which I gave to my hon. Friend on the 3rd and 10th April.
Imperial Trade Commission
asked the Prime Minister whether any representative of the iron and steel industry in this country is numbered amongst the members of the Commission recently appointed to inquire into the trade of the Empire; and, if not, whether he will take steps to see that the interests of this industry are specially and adequately represented?
His Majesty's Government are satisfied that the Commission, which includes Mr. Lorimer, is fully representative of the trade and industry of the United Kingdom, and they do not propose to recommend any alteration.
Can the light hon. Gentleman say what special knowledge Mr. Lorimer has?
Yes, he is chairman of the Steel Company of Scotland.
Welsh Disestablishment Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether, in preparing the Welsh Disestablishment Bill, the Government has taken steps to consult any representative leaders of the Established Church in Wales?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. The answer is in the negative.
Have any of the Nonconformists been taken into the Government's confidence in the matter?
The answer is in the negative.
May I ask a further question—
The hon. Member can put down his further questions.
Parliamentary Franchise
asked the Prime Minister whether the proposals of the Government for extending the present basis of the franchise for Parliamentary elections will be modified in consequence of the rejection of the Parliamentary Franchise (Women) Bill?
I am unable to anticipate the details of the proposals for a reform of the franchise laws, and can therefore add nothing to the statement made by the Prime Minister on 8th November last.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when it is likely to be introduced?
I could not answer that.
Railways Bill
asked the Prime Minister if he will state whether he proposes to take the Second Reading of the Railways Bill within the next fortnight; if so, on what day; and, if he is unable to mention the date, will he, in view of the importance of the measure and the magnitude of the interests involved, give at least four days' notice before doing so?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. It is not proposed to take the Second Reading of this Bill during the present week, and I hope to be able to give reasonable notice of the date when it will be taken.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say approximately what reasonable notice will amount to, as the matter is considered of great importance outside this House?
Two or three days.
Minus Valuation, Scotland
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the fact that the Court of Session in Scotland has decided that minus valuation is non-existent, if he will state what steps will be taken with regard to valuations already made and in regard to future ones?
An appeal is being lodged in this case from the decision of the Court of Session, and therefore I am not in a position to discuss the matter.
Since it appears, from the decision of the highest Court in Scotland, that it is illegal to have minus valuations, may I ask whether, pending further proceedings, the practice will be stopped?
Yes. An order has been given to that effect.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that several decisions of this branch of the Court of Session have been overthrown by the House of Lords?
There is an, appeal at the present moment.
Irrawaddy River (Bridge at Sagaing)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will state the present condition of the project begun in April, 1900, for connecting by a permanent bridge over the Irrawaddy River at Sagaing, near Mandalay, the Amarapura station with the Sagaing shore station?
A final construction estimate for the Sagaing bridge has been received by the Government of India, but its consideration has been held over, as owing to want of funds, it is proposed to defer the construction of the bridge for the next few years.
Tibet
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he can give any information as to what is the present state of affairs in Tibet?
During the present month fighting between the Chinese and Tibetans at Lhasa, Gyantse, and Shigatse has been reported by the British Trade Agent at Gyantse. It was stated that at Lhasa continuous fighting had ended in the Chinese seeking a truce; that at Gyantse the Chinese troops surrendered their arms and ammunition to the Tibetans, and received the cost price of the same, and a sum of money for travelling expenses, with which they left for China via India; and that at Shigatse five days' fighting, in which the losses on both sides amounted to twelve killed and one wounded, resulted similarly. No information has been received regarding the movements of the Dalai Lama.
Are there any Chinese now left in Tibet?
Perhaps the hon. and learned Member would give me notice of that question.
Proclamations of Governor-General in Council, India
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he will lay upon the Table of the House the Proclamations issued by the Governor-General in Council on 22nd March, 1912, delimiting the presidency of Fort William, in Bengal, and constituting the province of Bihar and Orissa, and taking the province of Assam under the immediate authority and management of the Governor-General in Council; and will he name the sections of the different Statutes empowering the Governor-General in Council to effect these changes by Proclamation?
I will lay the Proclamations upon the Table. The sections of the Statutes are respectively: For the delimitation of Section 47 of the Indian Councils Act, 1861, Sections 4 and 5 of the Government of India Act, 1865, "and all other powers enabling him in this behalf." For the constitution of Sections 44, 46, 47, and 49 of the Indian Councils Act, 1861, and Sections 4 and 5 of the Government of India Act, 1865. For taking under the immediate authority and management of the Governor-General in Council, Section 3 of the Government of India Act, 1854.
Land Purchase (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state what is the present position of land purchase in Ireland; what liabilities have already been incurred; to what extent those owners whose lands have been acquired by tenants have received payment therefor; and what is the extent and estimated value of land which can still be acquired under the Land Purchase Act; and whether, under the Government of Ireland Bill, if it become law, it will be possible for the present method of valuation and purchase to be varied in any way without the authority of the Imperial Parliament?
Up to 2nd March last (the latest date for which figures are available), lands to the value of £119,518,325 had been sold or were pending for sale before the Estates-Commissioners, and of that amount £73,981,474 has already been advanced. The area of land for the sale of which proceedings had not been instituted under the Land Purchase Acts was estimated at 7,301,798 acres, the estimated purchase money being £82,263,747. The answer to the final paragraph of the question is in the negative.
Special Army Reserve
asked the Under Secretary of State for war whether, in view of the fact that the Special Reserve is now part of the Regular Army, he will arrange that the information as to the physique of the Special Reserve recruits shall be published annually, as is done in the case of recruits for the Regular Army?
This question has been carefully considered. The compilation of the figures for recruits of the Regular Army involves a very large amount of labour on complicated returns, and it is considered that the value of the information obtained is hardly proportionate to the work expended on their preparation. It is not proposed, therefore, to extend the Return so as to include the Special Reserve.
Territorial Force
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will consider granting to those members of the Territorial Force who are not married, but who may have near relatives dependent upon their earnings, an allowance whilst in training on the basis of the proposed separation allowance to married men?
In the case of the Regular Army no such basis for the grant of allowances as that suggested by my hon. Friend for near relatives is recognised, and I am afraid that it would be exceedingly difficult to attempt to adopt it in the case of the Territorial Force.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give me the approximate number of unmarried men?
I could not give the answer haphazard. Though I have a figure in my mind, I do not like to commit myself, but I will find out the number.
Greystones Harbour, County Wicklow
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether a voluntary association, known as the Greystones Improvement Association, applied in a formal manner to the Development Commission for a Grant to improve the harbour works at Greystones, now in a condition dangerous to life and property; whether this application was sent to the Treasury in accordance with the Regulations to be by them forwarded to the Commission; whether the Treasury refused to send on this application; and if he can state on what ground the Treasury refused to discharge this ministerial duty?
An application was received from the hon. Member as representing the Greystones Harbour Committee for a Grant from the Development Fund to be made to the Board of Works for the execution of harbour improvements at "Greystones. No application was however made by the Board of Works, as Greystones Harbour is vested in the Wicklow County Council. The Treasury cannot regard an application from one body for a Grant to be made to another as being an application within the meaning of the Act.
West Indian Currency Issues
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the profit, if any, made by the Imperial Government out of West Indian currency issues, inculding British Guiana and British Honduras, in each of the last ten years?
The only West Indian issue in respect of which profit has accrued to the Imperial Government is that of British Guiana fourpences. The gross profit has been as follows:—
Does the hon. Gentleman say that no profit has been made out of British Honduras and other West Indian issues?
So I understand.
Government Departments (Ridley Scheme)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether it was found necessary, during a period of five years after the inception of the Ridley scheme, to cause inquiries to be made into the work of any of the Government Departments; and, if so, will he furnish information as to the offices in which such inquiries were held?
Inquiries were held under the provisions of Clauses 17 and 18 of the Order in Council of 15th August, 1890, into the Charity Commission, the Metropolitan Police, Court Clerkships, and the Public Record Office.
Civil Service (Introduction of Grades)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he would furnish information as to the Order or Orders in Council by which the introduction into the Civil Service of the following grades was authorised, namely: assistant clerks (new class), supervisory assistant clerks, and the intermediate grade of clerks?
The grades referred to were not set up by Order in Council. This procedure is not necessary for the introduction of a new grade into the Civil Service.
Great Britain and Ireland (Differential Taxation)
asked when the Return would be ready which was moved for by the hon. Member for Salisbury, respecting the differential rates of taxation in Great Britain and Ireland?
I hope that the Return will be ready in a few days.
Labour Exchanges (Buildings)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he could state the cause of the delay in erecting suitable and commodious buildings for Labour Exchange purposes in London, as outlined and promised when the Bill was first introduced; and whether, in view of the number of workpeople using the Exchanges and for whom the existing accommodation was entirely inadequate, he could see his way to give early consideration to this matter?
A number of new premises for Labour Exchanges in London have been acquired in place of the existing temporary ones, and others are in process of adaptation. The question of the erection of permanent buildings is receiving my careful consideration.
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether he was aware that the Plymouth telephone area was recently enlarged; that those who held an agreement for an unlimited service in the Plymouth area were charged an extra rate in consequence of the enlargement of the area, and that money deposited by subscribers for postal facilities was appropriated to cover the extra charge; whether it was the rule of the Post Office to compel subscribers to pay increased rates for an unlimited service over an enlarged area; and whether such increased rates were charged to subscribers during the currency of the existing agreement?
The Plymouth telephone area was extended some time ago to include Yelverton. Previously calls between Plymouth and Yelverton made by unlimited rate subscribers, as well as others, were subject to trunk fees of 3d. per call, but on the extension the fee was reduced to 2d. There was therefore a reduction, and not an increase, of charge for unlimited rate subscribers. Any amounts due for calls made by subscribers, if not paid in the ordinary course, would be charged against their deposits.
Port-of-Spain House Rate Ordinance
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention had been drawn to the circumstances under which the Governor of Trinidad refused assent to the Port-of-Spain House Rate Ordinance; whether he would say whether the veto of a Governor of a Crown Colony was an absolute one applicable to all Motions and Bills, irrespective of whether they were Imperial or local in character, or whether the veto was reserved for those subjects specified in Section 25 of the Royal Instructions in the Letters Patent or was in any way subject to modification or condition; and whether there was any provision by which a Governor must submit to the Home Government any Bill to which he had refused assent, together with his reasons for rejection?
I have received by the last mail a dispatch on the subject from the Governor of Trinidad and shall, if necessary, consult my legal advisers. In the meantime it would be better that I should not make any further statement in regard to it.
Clerks to Surveyors of Taxes
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention had been drawn to the memorial recently addressed to the Members of the House of Commons praying for a full and impartial inquiry into the grievances of the Clerks to Surveyors of Taxes; and, if so, would he, in view of the dissatisfaction expressed by the clerks with their conditions of service, consider the desirability of appointing a Select Committee of the House to go into the matter?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, I do not consider that the appointment of a Select Committee of the House to go into the grievances of the Clerks to the Surveyors of Taxes is desirable.
Bombardment of the Dardanelles
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a question, of which I have given private notice, namely, whether His Majesty's Government has any information to lay before the House with regard to the reported blockade of the Dardanelles by the Italian fleet, the closing of the Straits by the Ottoman Government by means of submarine mines, and the present naval situation in the Ægean?
There is no blockade of the Dardanelles, and we know of no further firing than that which has been reported in the Press. In a communication to the Turkish Government, we have expressed the hope, while recognising the right of Turkey to adopt measures of self defence, that the Turkish Government will find it possible to open a passage through the Straits to foreign commerce as soon as possible, on account of the great injury which is being caused to commercial and shipping interests by the closing of the Straits. We have reason to believe that the Turkish Government are fully alive to the importance of the question, but are unable to give any assurances in existing circumstances. Information has been asked for as to what has occurred with regard to floating mines, and whether any measures have been taken to prevent them from being carried into the open sea. We are informed that no mines have been set free, and that no floating unattached mines have been used. One mine escaped, but was recaptured near Dedeagatch. The mines that have been laid in the Straits are, we are informed on good authority, of such a character as to become inocuous if they break loose. As to the possibility in the Ægean, the Consul at Samos has reported that two Italian war vessels bombarded Turkish barracks there and destroyed a stationnaire. The Turkish troops retired into the interior. The Tenedos-Lemnos and Chio-Syra-Tene-dos cables are reported to have been cut.
Loss of Steamship "Titanic."
Government Inquiry
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that many passenger ships are provided with lifeboat accommodation sufficient only for the conveyance of but a small portion of the passengers and crew; that in many cases lifeboat drill is carried out at Very rare intervals and in a very perfunctory manner; that upon emergency it has been found that, owing to long disuse, the lifeboat gear has so deteriorated as to prevent the proper launching of the boats; and whether he can see his way to introduce legislation to ensure that passenger ships carry a sufficient number of lifeboats to convey all the passengers and crew; that the crew are adequately drilled in their launching and manning; and that all tackle is kept in perfect condition?
asked the President of the Board of Trade what number of boats and of what capacity the steamship "Titanic" was supposed to carry; what number of passengers and crew she was licensed to carry; what number of boats and their capacity she actually carried, and what number of passengers and crew when she left Southampton on Wednesday, 10th inst.; and whether the Board of Trade have power to compel the carrying of sufficient boats to hold all the passengers and crew conveyed by a vessel; and, if not, whether he will immediately introduce legislation to give the Board of Trade such power or give facilities for such a measure to be passed into law if introduced by a Private Member?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the alleged absence of proper and sufficient life-boat accommodation on board British passenger ships; and whether his Department are now in a position to take action in accordance with his statement on the 11th December last?
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what number of lifeboats was carried by the "Titanic"; and what are the requirements of the Board of Trade with regard to lifeboats for ships of this size; (2) if he is prepared to hold an immediate inquiry into the necessity and practicability of large passenger steamers carrying and using at night powerful search lights?
asked the correct number of passengers, men, women, and children, carried by the "Titanic," first, second, and third class, separately; the number of each class saved from the wreck, separately; and the proportion of passengers saved in each class to the total in each class?
asked what percentage of first, second, and third-class passengers, respectively, compared with the number of passengers carried, were saved from the recent wreck of the ss. "Titanic," the percentage of women passengers of each class who were saved, and also the percentage of men who were saved in like comparison?
asked the names of the members of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee that reported to the Board of Trade on the proposed alterations of the regulations relating to saving life at sea, and by whom they were appointed and the interests that they represented?
asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether, in view of recent events, he will consider the advisability of making such regulations as will ensure that, on all vessels equipped with the Marconi system of telegraphy, a sufficient number of operators are on board to secure constant attendance at the instrument by night and day?
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government are prepared, in view of the grave loss of life which attended the wreck of the "Titanic," to appoint a Committee to inquire into the question of the precautions taken on board vessels of the mercantile marine to prevent disaster at sea, and in particular to the supply of searchlights, boats, and life-saving devices generally, as well as the efficacy of the existing Board of Trade regulations, with a view to the adoption of more effective means in the future?
Many of the particulars asked for were given by me to the House in my statement on Thursday last. I do not propose to repeat those particulars, but I am sending a copy of the statement containing them to the hon. Members who have asked for the same details. The number of passengers on board the "Titanic" when she left Southampton was 922, and the crew numbered 892. Additional passengers were taken on board at Cherbourg and Queenstown, making the total persons on board, according to the Board of Trade information, 2,208, as stated by me on Thursday. As regards the percentage of passengers classified according to sex and class whose lives were saved, I regret that my information does not yet enable me to give a complete and accurate reply. As soon as the particulars are available, I will circulate them with the Votes.
As regards the performance of boat drill, the Merchant Shipping Act requires that boats and other live-saving appliances on board any ship shall be kept so as to be at all times fit and ready for use, and if any case comes to the knowledge of the Board of Trade in which this requirement is not complied with, the case is investigated and proceedings are instituted if necessary. I am having printed with the Votes copy of a notice to owners and masters issued at the end of 1908, calling their special attention to this matter. Further, the boats of all passenger steamers are inspected by the Board's surveyors at least once a year, and the boats of emigrant ships are inspected before each voyage, special attention being paid to the arrangements for launching the boats. The Board of Trade have full power under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, to make and enforce rules prescribing the number and description of the boats and other life-saving appliances to be carried by British ships. The rules must be laid before Parliament for forty days before coming into operation, but no legislation is required to make them effective. Should, however, the course of the inquiry about to be held indicate that the powers of the Board of Trade require to be supplemented in any mariner, I shall not hesitate to ask Parliament at once to enact the necessary legislation.
I have already informed the House that the whole of the questions of safety raised by the disaster will be submitted to searching examination. Steps are being taken at once to constitute the strongest possible Court of Inquiry to investigate the circumstances of the loss of the "Titanic," and in consequence of the exceptional gravity of the case I am in communication with the Lord Chancellor with a view, if possible, to the special appointment of a person recognised as of high judicial authority as a Wreck Commissioner, under Section 477 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894. The Commissioner so appointed would form an independent Court, sitting with assessors, for the purpose of this Inquiry. Meanwhile the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee is meeting at once to consider not only the matters previously referred back to them by the Board of Trade in accordance with the statement made by me on Thursday last, but also the new situation which has now arisen, and its bearing on the question not only of boat accommodation, but on a number of matters affecting the question of safety at sea which have been raised in a more or less new form by the present disaster. Some of these questions cannot probably be cleared up finally until the Court of Inquiry has completed its investigation, but some of them— e.g., the routes for passenger ships across the Atlantic, the speed of such ships under certain conditions, the use of searchlights, the operation of wireless telegraphy, etc.—can be examined, at all events, in a preliminary manner without awaiting the verdict of the Court, and I am extremely anxious that there should be no avoidable delay. I am having the names and other particulars, of the members of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee printed with the Votes.
When I have received Reports both of the Court of Inquiry and of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee, I shall be in a position to advise the House whether further investigation is required by a Committee or Commission of Inquiry, either of a national or of an international character. The House may also like to know that the Board of Trade have convened a meeting of representatives of the principal British shipping companies which own great passenger ships for the purpose of an immediate exchange of views as to the measures contemplated by the companies themselves, pending the revision of the statutory rules.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if, in the case of any inquiry he makes or any Regulations he enforces, he will consider the advisability of making them apply not only to British ships, but all foreign ships that take British passengers at our ports?
I will certainly consider the point.
May I repeat the question I asked the other day, Have the Board of Trade power to make Regulations to compel the practice of manning and lowering boats on board ship, and for the captain to make a report at the close of a voyage concerning such practice; and do any such Regulations exist as well as the power to make them?
Does the hon. Member mean that at the end of the voyage the captain of a particular ship shall report in regard to the method in which the boat drill has been carried out? We have powers, as I have already stated, when a ship is leaving port—and we always carry those powers out—to see that there is a proper complement of boats under the Regulations, and that proper arrangements are made for launching them.
Have the Board of Trade made Regulations which compel that boat practice—manning and lowering boats—during the voyage?
Is a log kept, and is such log ever submitted to the Board of Trade?
I should like notice of both those questions.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the Government will consider the subject of approaching other Governments whose ships navigate the Atlantic with passengers—Russia, Germany, France, Italy, Norway, and Sweden—with a view to having an international convention by which fresh legislation for the safety of passengers may be uniform for all vessels carrying passengers of whatever nationality?
That is a matter to which we shall give very careful attention, in the light of the evidence which will be given before the Commission, and of other inquiries we are making. It is a matter we have very much in our minds.
Having regard to the delay which must necessarily arise in connection with these inquiries, will the Government consider the suggestion of approaching other Governments through the proper channel, in the meantime, in a preliminary way?
That is under consideration.
Will there be an opportunity of discussing the salary of the right hon. Gentleman at an early date with reference to the responsibility of the Board of Trade in regard to the provision of boats?
May I ask whether, under the existing Acts, the right hon. Gentleman has power to make Regulations with regard to the provision of a relief Marconi operator on board ship, and, if not, will he consider the advisability of obtaining such power?
I have no such power. I think I said in my answer that the question of the condition of the wireless installation on board these ships, and the question of the operators, are matters to which we shall give particular attention.
What is the nature, scope, and power of the Board of Inquiry to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred? Is it a Board of Trade inquiry, a special Commission, or a Parliamentary inquiry, or what is the intention? Further, what steps has he taken up to the present time to secure that the evidence of the passengers and crew of the "Titanic" on board the "Lapland" will be available for the inquiry?
I think I have given sufficient indication already. It will be an inquiry into the circumstances of the wreck of the "Titanic," and I hope the Court will be one that will give the public confidence. Undoubtedly they will have power to go into all those points, and take evidence not only with regard to the "Titanic," but other ships, as they think advisable, in the interests of the inquiry.
How is the Court to be appointed? Is it to be a Board of Trade inquiry or a Parliamentary inquiry, and what steps has the right hon. Gentleman taken to secure that the evidence of the passengers and crew now coming to this country will be available?
In the ordinary way courts of inquiry are appointed by the Board of Trade, but in this particular case, which is one of such moment, we are extremely anxious that there should be no question of want of public confidence in the competence of the tribunal. As I have said, I have been in communication with the Lord Chancellor with a view to having a special Wreck Commissioner, a man of high judicial authority, to sit with assessors who represent the varied knowledge which is necessary for the Commission. They will undoubtedly have full power to make the fullest inquiry from anyone affected, or anyone whom they like to call.
Is it to be a special Commission, and what about the passengers?
Undoubtedly.
Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to ensure that all the crew and passengers will not be scattered all over the country—I will not suggest anything further—before their evidence is taken fresh on their arrival in this country?
I have no power to subpœna the passengers and the crew, but we are taking steps as rapidly as we can to appoint this Court, and as soon as they are constituted they will have the full powers which my hon. Friend desires.
Have we not the same power to compel the attendance of witnesses as the American Senate? Surely we have as much right, nay, more right than they have?
We have no such power.
Then ask the House to give it to you.
I do not think the House need anticipate any difficulty in regard to the matter. I hope to-morrow, or as rapidly as possible, to be able to announce the names of the Court, and when constituted they will have full powers.
Will the right hon. Gentleman request the White Star Company that the members of the crew of the "Titanic" now on their way to this country be kept here in order to see whether their evidence is required by the Commission?
Undoubtedly that is necessary. The Court, as constituted, will have full power to enforce the attendance of those persons whose evidence they require.
The crew may be scattered to all parts of the world.
Will the right hon. Gentleman be very careful that every passenger, officer, or man, who can give evidence on the case of the "Titanic," is detained in this country, and will he be very careful to prevent what occurred in the case of the "Oceana," in which officers who manned the boats, and were only able to pull oars, were allowed to leave this country before they gave their evidence?
I have no power to detain anyone, either passengers or crew.
Then get power.
As I have already stated, the Commission will have full powers to secure the evidence they require. I desire to have this a strong and independent Court, and I think the House will agree that the less I interfere with the proceedings the better. They will have full responsibility and power, as soon as they are constituted, of dealing with the whole matter.
Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE rose—
We must proceed with the other questions.
Witnesses
I desire to ask the President of the Board of Trade a question of which I have given private notice, namely, whether he will state to the House the steps he proposes to take in order to keep all the members of the "Titanic" crew in this country on their arrival, and to ensure that the evidence of the whole of them will be available?
I thought I had already explained to the House that I should use such powers as I have to ensure the necessary attendance of both passengers and crew, and that, as soon as the Court to which I have referred is constituted, their attendance will be required by the Court.
Will the right hon. Gentleman address a letter to the White Star Line direct asking for an assurance that every member of the crew will be kept available till such time as he informs them he does not require their attendance.
Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate to all the shipping companies throughout the country the names of the crew of the "Titanic," and instruct the shipmasters not to ship these men for fresh voyages until after the inquiry?
I venture to say that in one way it would not be necessary for me to communicate with the White Star Company in regard to this matter, because, I feel sure, from the communications I have already had with them, that they court the fullest inquiry. At the same time I had intended to communicate with them officially from the Board of Trade with regard to this very matter.
Will the right hon. Gentleman do it? That is what I have asked.
Yes. I have said so.
You did not say so.
Motion for Adjournment
In view of the unsatisfactory replies—we have no confidence in them at all—I ask leave to Move the Adjournment of the House in order to call attention to a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the necessity of the Board of Trade taking immediate steps to secure that the officers, crew, and passengers of the "Titanic," now on their way to this country, may be available as witnesses for any official inquiry that may be held.
The pleasure of the House not having been signified, Mr. Speaker called on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and not less than forty Members having accordingly risen, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 10, until a quarter-past eight this evening.
Has the Board of Trade any power to do this?
The hon. Member is too late to put that question. I do not know whether the Board of Trade have any power to do what hon. Members wish them to do. The Board of Trade will have an opportunity of pointing that out this evening. I am not sufficiently well acquainted with the law to be able to pronounce straight away a judgment concerning the matter.
Foreign Messages of Sympathy
I beg to inform the House that I have received the following telegrams:—
"St. Petersburg,
"April 20th.
"The President and the Members of the Bureau of the Imperial Duma beg you to convey to the House of Commons the sentiments of their mournful sympathy on the occasion of the tragic loss of the 'Titanic,' and their sincere condolences with the countless victims of this terrible catastrophe.
"The President of the Imperial Duma,
"MICHAEL DE RODZIANKO."
"To the House of Commons,
"London.
"The Senate of the Republic of Cuba in Session held yesterday resolved unanimously to express its condolences through the Honourable House of Commons to the English nation for the loss of life in the terrible disaster of the s. s. 'Titanic'"
"DR. ANTONIO GONZALO PEREZ,
"President of the Senate."
The House no doubt will desire me to send suitable replies.
New Member Sworn
Sir John David Rees, K.C.S.I., C.V.O., for the Borough of Nottingham (East Division).
Bills Presented
Education Bill
"To amend the Education Acts, 1870 to 1911." Presented by Colonel BATHURST; supported by Lord Henry Cavendish-Ben-tinck and Mr. Stanier; to be read a second time upon Monday, 13th May, and to be printed. [Bill 160.]
Representation of the People (No. 3) Bill
"To provide for the better Representation of the People and the redistribution of seats in the House of Commons." Presented by Sir HENRY KIMBER; supported by Sir John Bethell, Earl of Ronaldshay, Mr. Nield, Mr. John Ward, Mr. Newman, Earl Winterton, Mr. Malcolm, Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart, Mr. Mallaby-Deeley, and Mr. George Faber; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 161.]
Government of India Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
The Government ask the House to-day for the Second Reading of the Bill which is to carry out the policy that was announced at the Coronation Durbar at Delhi last September. The House of Commons proceeds to discuss the matter at a moment when I think it is safe to say that that policy has been accialmed by the vast majority of all classes and all races concerned. Out-and-out opponents of the scheme have come to occupy a position of pathetic, if splendid, isolation. Therefore I do not propose to do more than explain quite shortly to the House the provisions of the Bill itself. It begins—the House will observe—with the Preamble—not a Preamble of intention, but a Preamble which recites the Acts which have actually been performed. It has been contended that instead of performing these Acts by Proclamation or Warrant, the Government ought to have proceeded by Clauses in this Bill or in some Bill which had received the sanction of Parliament. The House will agree that no Government could come to the Houses of Parliament and ask for powers that have already been granted. If I can prove that every Act recited in the Preamble is an Act for which there is ample Parliamentary authority I shall have proved that the method of carrying out these changes is strictly constitutional, and, in fact, the only method which the Government could have adopted. Nothing could be more confusing to students of our Constitution, or more puzzling to those who have to deal with India afterwards, if Parliament were to-day to re-enact what it had enacted in past years.
It has been said that we are relying upon antiquated or even obsolete Statutes, but these are only obsolete in that they are unfamiliar to Members of this House. They are perfectly well known to those who have to administer India, although I am bound to admit that it would be difficult for anybody approaching the task for the first time to find his tortuous way through the large number of Statutes in which these subjects have been dealt with. That is the only argument which I earnestly and devoutly trust, from my own experience of the last few months, will be very speedily accomplished—the consolidation of the various Council Acts and Government of India Act that have been passed since 1793. Section 16 of the Government of India Act, 1853, gives to the Court of Directors of the East India Company power to declare that the Governor-General of India shall no longer be the Governor of Fort William in Bengal, and powers to appoint a separate Governor for that province. Section 74 of the Government of India Act, 1858, transfers the powers of the Court of Directors to the Secretary of State in Council, and under this Act the Secretary of State in Council on 19th March, 1912, passed a Resolution, in accordance with Section 16 of the Act of 1853, declaring that the Governor-General no longer should be the Governor of Bengal. Section 44 of the Act of 1861 gives the Governor-General in Council power to establish Legislative Councils in various provinces. Section 47 of the same Act gives the Governor-General in Council power to fix the limit of the Presidency of a Lieutenant-Governorship by proclamation. Section 4 of the Government of India Act, 1865, gives power to the Governor-General in Council to define the boundaries of the Presidency and of the Lieutenant-Governorship for all purposes. Section 5 of the said Act makes the assent of the Crown necessary before the Proclamation has effect. Acting under these powers in a strictly constitutional way, the Governor-General of India in Council, on 22nd March, 1912, fixed by Proclamation the limits of the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal, and constituted the new province of Bihar and Orissa.
4.0 P.M.
On the 21st March, 1912, His Majesty appointed by Royal Warrant Lord Car-michael Governor of Bengal under Section 29 of the Government of India Act of 1858. On the same date, under Section 58 of the Government of India Act, 1869, His Majesty appointed three Councillors to be executive members of the Council of the Governor-General. I will not trespass upon the time of the House by reciting the provisions of those Sections, but I have quoted them in order to show where we have found the evidence upon which I base the claim that we have acted strictly in accordance with the powers given to us by Parliament in previous years, and that we have proceeded in a proper and right way to carry out those changes, as recited in the Preamble of this Bill. I will go on quite shortly to explain what the various Clauses of the Bill are. The first Clause gives to the new Governor and the Governor in Council in Bengal exactly the same powers as are now possessed by the Governor and the Governor in Council of Madras and Bombay. The Act of 1853 extended to the Governor of any new Presidency that might be formed all the powers that the Governors of Madras and Bombay had at that date. It is now only necessary that Section 1 of this Bill should extend to the new Governor of that Presidency all those legislative powers which have been given to the Governors of Madras and Bombay since the passage of the Act of 1853, such powers as were granted, for instance, under the Councils Act of 1861 to the Governors of Madras and Bombay to make rules for the conduct of business in the Legislative Council and so on. Then the House will see that to Clause 1 two provisoes are added. The first reserves to the Governor-General, who now ceases to be Governor of Bengal, certain powers which have been exercised by the Governor-General in the past. The powers which are specially referred to are the powers granted to the Governor-General under the High Courts Acts of 1860 and 1911, which give to him the power to appoint temporary and acting judges of the High Court. At present, anyhow, the jurisdiction of the High Court sitting in Calcutta will extend also to the limits of the Presidency of Fort William and Bengal, as defined by the Proclamation I have quoted. It will extend to the provinces of Bihar and Orissa, and, in consequence, it seems right, and I think the House will agree; to leave to the Governor-General the power to appoint the judges who will have to sit in this High Court.
The second proviso obviates the necessity of appointing the Advocate-General of Bengal as a member of the Legislative Council of Bengal. The Advocate-General as law adviser has to give advice by the terms of his appointment to both the Government of Bengal and the Government of India. The Government of India may find it advisable to appoint the Advocate-General as a member of the Legislative Council of the Governor-General and to leave the Standing Counsel to be appointed to the Legislative Council of the Presidency. That is the reason for the proviso. Sub-section (2), Section 1, merely transfers from the Governor-General the power to alter the limits of the town of Calcutta, which were conferred upon him by Section 1 of the Indian Presidency Towns Act, 1815, which is now vested in the Government of Bengal. Section 2 of this Bill gives power to establish an Executive Council for the new provinces of Bihar and Orissa. I may say, of course, Bihar and Orissa will have a Legislative Council as well as an Executive Council, and it is not necessary to include provision for that in this Bill, because under the Indian Councils Act, 1861, it is possible to appoint a Legislative Council under the Lieutenant-Governor. Section 3 gives power to the Governor-General to appoint a Legislative Council for a province which is governed by a Chief Commissioner. The Governor-General has power to take under his own government, and to appoint a Chief Commissioner to govern any piece of territory in India, under Section 3 of the Act of 1854, which is what Lord Curzon did when he Avas Viceroy and made the North-West frontier a province under a Chief Commissioner. Having made Assam a Chief Commissionership by Proclamation under this Act, this Section of the Bill which is now before the House gives power to appoint a Legislative Council for such provinces as are under a Chief Commissioner.
If the Government obtain power under that Clause of the Bill they propose to exercise it at once in two provinces which are governed by a Chief Commissioner, and the first is Assam. I do not think the House will deny that the case for the grant of a Legislative Council to Assam is a good one. Lord Curzon, in a speech on this subject which he made in the House of Lords, made it one of his complaints against the scheme that it would detract from the position of Assam and would remove it from junction with the government of Eastern Bengal. Assam has been under a Legislative Council, and giving it a Legislative Council through this Bill would enable that province to go on with the same representative Govern-men as it has had in the past. The other province is the Central Province, to which the Government of India propose to give a Legislative Council. The Central Provinces, including Berar, include a population of 14,000,000, extending over an area of 100,000 square miles, and I think those, who unlike myself, have had some experience of that part of the British Empire, will agree that in education and enthusiasm for progress, the claim of Berar that it should have the same system of government as its neighbouring provinces, is a good one. At any rate, it is a move which is strictly in accordance with the spirit of the Liberal Imperial policy of devolution, and the granting of representative government in response to the demands of the majority of those people in a country who have expressed a desire for it.
That is Section 3, and the only section of the Bill remaining is Section 4 which, with the Schedule, repeals and amends certain enactments which now either require alteration to harmonise them with the new conditions, or require to be repealed. The only one I need mention is the repeal of Section 57 of the East India Act of 1793, which dates from the time when the Civil Services of each Presidency were a separate service, and which prevented the appointment of Civil servants from one Presidency to act in another. Now that the whole of the Indian Civil Service is an Imperial service, it seems to the Government of India that this provision is unnecessary. It invariably happened, when they wanted to appoint a man from one province to a position in another, that they first transferred him to the Civil Service of that province, and then appointed him. The repeal of Section 71 is consequential upon the repeal of Section 57. The other provisions, as the House will see, are merely-slight verbal alterations.
Perhaps I ought to have mentionedi Section 50 of the Indian Councils Actr 1861, the Amendment of which in the first. Schedule makes it possible in the absence of the Viceroy for the Governor of Bengal to act as Governor-General as the Governor of Bombay or Madras may now act as Viceroy in the absence of the Governor-General. That is the whole of the Bill, and as I have said, it consists merely of slight alterations in machinery to carry out a policy which has been generally accepted, and which I believe the House will agree contains elements of lasting advantage and germs of improvement of the Government of the Great Empire of India.
I think I must at the outset congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the temerity with which he mentioned in his first sentence the Preamble of the Bill, for in so doing he has shown that the way in which the Government have dealt with Preambles in a certain case which is familiar to us was not a settled practice, and that they do sometimes introduce a Preamble which they really intend to carry into operation. Now, I am not going to follow the hon. Gentleman into the details, which he has put before the House. There was one point which I do think I must call attention to, and that was his statement that whatever might have been the view a few months ago the changes which they are introducing are now acclaimed universally by Indian opinion. My information is entirely in the opposite direction. It is to the effect that whereas it was received with enthusiasm at first it is now being regarded with much greater criticism in India. I happened to look at the last number of the "Pioneer," which only arrived this morning. I find in it what the Bengal people think; the very class who are supposed to be most heartily in favour of it There was a great meeting in Calcutta, and this is what a leading representative said. He moved a resolution, which was carried, "That this meeting has read with a sense of profound regret and disappointment the Proclamation of the Government of India defining the territories to be included within the province of Bengal," and then he went on to say that there was no such thing as a settled fact in the Government of India. I think, therefore, that if I were to argue this point I could show that the hon. Gentleman has no justification for maintaining that the changes are now acclaimed by the whole of the people of India; but I am not going to speak on this matter at any length. I rise at this stage solely for the purpose of saying that we on these benches do not intend to oppose this Bill or to vote against it. The reasons why we intend taking this course must be obvious to the House. We should be very sorry, under any circumstances, to deal with anything affecting the Government of India in a way that could by any possibility be regarded as bringing it into the arena of party politics. Everyone must realise how dangerous that would be. If the House will pardon the digression it has just occurred to me that Carlyle in the "French Revolution" gave an account of a leader of a revolt of the blacks in San Domingo who appeared before the judges and he had a number of black and white seeds in his hand. When he first held them out the white seeds were upon the top. He said, "Behold, they are all white." He shook bis hand and the white seeds disappeared, and as he held out his hand again he said, "Behold, they are all black." That is our position, and if ever Indian administration becomes a question of party politics in my opinion it will be utterly impossible for our rule in India to continue. But there is another reason which makes it utterly impossible for us to oppose this Bill, and that is the way in which this change, which is one of the greatest and far-reaching ever made in the whole of our history in India, has been carried out. This makes it impossible for us to oppose it. The Under-Secretary for India began by saying that he could prove everything that has been done has been done constitutionally, but he seemed to me to ignore the facts of the case, and he dealt only with technicalities. Every one knows that the prerogative of the Crown contains powers which enable the Government at any time to do many things which they would never dream of doing without the consent of Parliament. Take for example the Convention of London. A large part of that could have been done without appealing to this House at all, but the Government felt that it was too important to be dealt with in that way, and therefore they decided to give this House an opportunity of considering it. To show how far the Government themselves are from holding the views expressed by the hon. Gentleman I will quote what the Prime Minister himself said on the first day of the opening of Parliament. He said:—
Suppose there were a change of Government to-morrow and suppose that Government felt in the strongest possible way that this change was bad, that Government dare not reverse it because they would know, however bad it was, the reversing of the evil or the evil of lowering the prestige of the Emperor in India would be far greater than this unconstitutional action. For the reasons I have mentioned I am not going even to criticise this Bill, because it is not worth while in the circumstances in which we stand. There is, however, one question which before I sit down I should like to ask the Under-Secretary or someone representing the Government. In that Proclamation there was nothing which seemed to me more important—and it has been so regarded in India—than the statement that the policy of the Government was to have a federated area with great autonomous provinces and a central Government. It may perhaps be possible to have a federated India, but I doubt it. I doubt if it will be possible for British rule to continue unless there is a central Government exercising complete power over the whole of India. But whether that is true or not, surely it would have been wiser to wait for the natural growth in the direction of these autonomous provinces and not commit us to a policy like this when India is not yet ripe for such a policy. Lord Crewe seemed to hold my view on the subject, because, when his attention was directed to this question, he said:— to hamper any hon. Friends of mine in this House, still less out of it, who wish to criticise on their own responsibility and from their own knowledge this action on the part of His Majesty's Government.
I was glad to hear the Leader of the Opposition state that he did not intend to oppose this Bill, and I heartily agree with him in the view he expressed that party politics should be excluded from the consideration of this question. As to the change of opinion alleged in regard to these proposals, the right hon. Gentleman referred to a meeting which took place in Calcutta recently. I do not know the details of that meeting, but I think everyone in the House will agree that, having regard to the way which Calcutta was affected by these proposals, it is not surprising that that meeting expressed an opinion contrary to transferring the seat of Government to Delhi. The Leader of the Opposition has not criticised the details of this Bill, and he said it was not necessary to do so having regard to the circumstances; but he has criticised the way in which this decision was carried out. I have taken an interest in this question for a great many years, and I may perhaps remind the House that this controversy with regard to the partition of Bengal is not a new one. May I recall to the House what took place in regard to this question in 1905. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was in the House at that time, or whether he took any active interest in this question. I will remind the House, however, that the question of the partition of Bengal, under the initiative of Lord Curzon, came into public notice on 9th August, 1905, and it was my lot to move the Adjournment of the House on that Bill in order to draw attention to the importance of the proposal, and to ask the Government of that day to delay action until the House of Commons and Parliament had had an opportunity of considering their proposals.
The net result of that Debate was that the then Secretary for India (Mr. Brodrick at that time) gave an undertaking that Papers would be laid before the House, and the impression conveyed to me on that occasion was that the meaning of that undertaking was that no action would be taken in regard to the scheme for the partition of Bengal until the House of Commons had had an opportunity of considering the proposal. A correspondence afterwards took place in the Press between the Secretary of State and myself, in which it became plain that a misunderstanding had taken place. There is one point in connection with a controversy of that kind which I think is relevant to the present issue, and it is that in the communication written by the Secretary of State and sent to the Press at the time he made it clear that the scheme for the partition of Bengal had already received the assent of the Home Government, so that there was no question then of taking the House of Commons or Parliament into their confidence on the part of the Government responsible for the official partition scheme. In view of that fact I do not think the right hon. Gentleman can very well criticise the way in which this particular modification of the scheme has been carried out. There is, however, in regard to this modification a new factor in the situation which has already been referred to by the right hon. Gentleman, namely, that the transfer of the capital was announced under conditions of unique pomp and solemnity in a Proclamation by His Majesty himself which expressed the decision which His Majesty and the Government had arrived at. I do not intend to take up the time of the House going into details of the provisions of this Bill. I would only say that this measure is a necessary consequence of the scheme which modifies the partition of Bengal which was carried into operation in the year 1905.
As one who has watched the course of this question for many years I wish to express my personal satisfaction and gratification that we have this Bill before us to-day as an expression of the change of view of the Government upon this subject. I have watched the development of Indian opinion for many years, and have taken every possible step to acquaint myself with the real conditions of things there, and I have long come to the conclusion that, until the Government of this country saw its way to materially modify the partition of that great area in the way they have now done, there would not be any chance of achieving permanent peace and contentment in India. In conclusion, I have only to associate myself with the way in which the right hon. Gentleman opposite has referred to the visit of His Majesty the King. I feel there is no doubt of the immense benefit of that visit to the future history of that great country. It is the beginning of a new era, I believe, in the history of our relations with India, and it is impossible for us to-day to measure accurately the immense consequences that will follow on that visit. I am one of those who, in regard to India, believe the continuance and strengthening of the link between this country and the Indian people is one of the most momentous issues in modern history, and will have a vital bearing upon the development of our Empire. I, and those who think with me on this question, welcome this Bill as something which promises the appeasement of a great discontent. It will also, I believe, be the means of bringing new peace into the life and history of India. I have listened with very great pleasure to the speech of my hon. Friend, and I feel certain the work we are doing to-day in passing this Bill will be of immense benefit to India.
The electors of East Nottingham have indirectly been responsible for many speeches upon India in the last six years, with not one word of which have I ever been able to agree. The House will not, therefore, consider I am resuming the speeches of the former Member for East Nottingham if I venture to say a few words on this Bill. I am sure the hon. Member who introduced the Bill wilt forgive me, as he has just returned from East Nottingham, where he went with the pious intention of defeating me. The right hon. Gentleman below me (Mr. Bonar Law) pointedly said that, though he expressed his opinion, he did not wish to bind any hon. Members on this side of the House, and he distinctly invited them to say what they thought. Nevertheless, I would have refrained from doing that for the reason which the right hon. Gentleman stated, that the Government have so dealt with this matter that it is impossible for those who are acquainted with India to express their opinions upon the exceedingly far-reaching and, as I think, most unconstitutional changes which have been introduced by the action taken during the Royal visit to India. The right hon. Gentleman referred to an extract from a well-known newspaper in India, but it was not necessary to refer to one. The volume of evidence on every side shows that nothing can be further from the fact than that these changes are generally approved in India. It is the case, however, that they have been effected in such a fashion that it is impossible for those who would wish to attack those changes—and I confess I am one of them—to do so. I shall carefully restrain myself within the limits indicated by the right hon. Gentleman. I should like to refer to what was said by the hon. Member for Denbighshire (Sir Herbert Roberts). He takes a strong and, I may say, a temperate interest in India. He referred to the Calcutta meeting as not indicating the general opinion of India. This is the first occasion on which I have heard any such expression of opinion from the hon. Gentleman and those who agree with him. Hitherto the voice of Calcutta has been the voice of India. The Baboo has been the one representative of the whole feeling in India, but now an opinion is expressed which happens to conflict with the views of the hon. Gentleman; the opinion of Calcutta is no longer the opinion of anybody. I never heard of anything more inconsistent in my life in or out of the House of Commons. The hon. Gentleman referred to some action he took with regard to the partition of Bengal in 1905. It was impossible that he should have had any effect upon that partition. "But," he says, "this action now taken is a necessary consequence of the partition which was effected in 1905." The argument, I presume, is that the cancellation of an action taken is a necessary consequence of it.
This modification is a necessary consequence.
The modification! How did that happen? I fail to follow. The fact is that this is the first occasion on which a deliberate action, approved by two Viceroys, by two Secretaries of State, and staged in both Houses of Parliament with almost weary reiteration to be a settled fact, has been undone by an Executive action and without giving any opportunity to those in this country who might wish to deal with the matter or to make any opposition. The argument of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Denbighshire as regards the partition of 1905 was that the House of Commons has to consider questions of this character. If that is so, he stands condemned now in approving of action of the same character taken, not only without the approval of Parliament, but in such a fashion as to make it impossible for Parliament to express its disapproval. The measures which lie behind this Bill—because this Bill is responsible, not so much for what it says, but for what it does not say; it is merely the outer crust of matter which is not brought before the House of Commons—the hon. Member says are necessary to allay discontent in India. If the hon. Gentleman studies the acts of those In India, with whom I presume he agrees— those who generally attack the Government of India and all its officers—he will find that in the Governor-General's Council, an effort to reopen this question absolutely failed. There was no one who approved of it. It fell as flat as it could in the Viceroy's Legislative Council, and not even the Indiam members were able to stand up and make any show in favour of reversing the partition. Discontent is absolutely dead, and the whole action taken is a needless resuscitation of an agitation in order to satisfy a small, clamorous minority. I do not know in what other way it is possible to describe it. I have abstained from going into the merits of the changes made for obvious reasons. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Montagu), in referring to Clause 2, said the province of Bihar and Orissa will have an Executive Council. I presume he means it will be liable to have an Executive Council if the Governor-General decides to create it.
The reason we put this Clause in is that if the Bill is carried we propose to give it.
That is a useful fact to have elicited. I confess I was ignorant of it myself. I heartily agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is a good case for a Legislative Council for Assam. I think the tea industry, which I hope will be largely represented upon it, will highly approve of it, nor do I think the industries of Assam will at all regret this reconstitution into a separate province. The only regrettable circumstance is that the reversal in that particular may be a cancellation of everything done by the previous Viceroy of the most emphatic and spectacular character, thereby I have no doubt giving greater satisfaction to a small modified remnant of the agitation. The hon. Gentleman said that Assam would therefore continue to have a Legislative Council. I presume he referred to the Legislative Council Assam enjoyed when it was a portion of the province of Eastern Bengal. I have no criticism to make upon that. I think the fact that a Legislative 'Council is created will be generally welcomed by Assam. The hon. Gentleman seemed to apologise for having gone back to ancient Statutes, but I think nobody is likely to accuse him or those who brought these changes about for any too great regard for precedents or antiquity. That is not the charge against them; it is rather of having introduced an immense constitutional change without the slightest discussion. He will remember Lord Curzon's partition was the subject of writing, speaking, and deliberation of the greatest length and in the utmost detail; and in that respect it forms a most extraordinary contrast with the action which lies behind this, Bill. There is one exception made in Clause 1. Proviso (a) was inserted, the hon. Gentleman says, in order that the Governor-General might continue to do what he now does, that is appoint judges to the High Court of Calcutta. Perhaps in the House of Commons it is safe to say that I sincerely hope in future it will not be a qualification for appointments to that High Court that the Gentlemen appointed should display a strong disposition to differ on every occasion with the Executive Government. Perhaps that would be too much to hope for. It has been of late, I do not hestitate to say, a most grievous incident in the government of India that an antagonism which existed once long ago—
On a point of Order, Sir, may I ask whether it is in order to discuss the position of Indian judges on this Bill?
There may possibly be some future judges to be appointed, and I do not think the observations of the hon. Gentleman are as yet out of order.
With respect, that is so. What I said would not touch the hon. Gentleman, who was a Civil Service judge, I meant the barrister judges. There is another subject which is of importance, and which is not touched upon in the Bill, and I presume cannot be, but on some occasion perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give us some idea of what is likely to be the cost of the immense changes which this skeleton of a Bill in no way indicates. The Secretary of State for India, in his dispatch—I speak from memory—distinctly said he found no fault with the fact that no estimate had been made of the cost of these changes. It will be such as, following upon the extinction of the opium revenue, will make a very great and grievous change in the position of the Indian taxpayer, and, if this is not the proper occasion, I hope an early opportunity will be taken of referring to it and giving some sort of indication of what it will really amount to. It comes before the House as if it were merely an ordinary administrative Act. The hon. Gentleman in his last words referred to the suggestion that there will in future be some change in the direction of a federated India. Some words in the despatches which passed between the Government of India and the Secretary of State certainly foreshadowed some such change. Following upon the very great changes recently made—I will not attempt to refer to them now—there has been a great advance in the direction of Parliamentary and democratic Government in India. It is certainly a strange thing that these greater and far-reaching changes should be thrown over on an occasion like this. We do not know how the changes made will work. Certainly the experiment when tried in other countries has not resulted encouragingly. Undoubtedly this is a matter connected with the Government of India, which excites the greatest public interest, and we shall watch the result with care.
I think that this Act, though very technical in its appearance, may, after Debate and in consideration of what is packed up in its Clauses, be looked upon as finishing the great legislation recently carried through this House. I will first refer to the reform of the Government of India, included in this policy, by allowing natives of higher positions to take part in the Executive Government; and I think it will be with the general assent of all bodies that this House will deal with this great question in a. thoroughly impartial manner. Then, as regards the actual things done, which have just been commented upon, I may say that what has been done has been done with very great deftness; and, as will be admitted by anybody who has much knowledge on the subject, it has also been done with great consideration for the interests of the provinces and of the people. As regards the unconstitutional character of the Act, it seems to me pressing the unconstitutional maxim rather too far when, in such a state of things this is opposed while the Ministerial responsibility includes powers of impeachment that can be used. I think no objection can be taken to the highly successful proceedings at the Durbar at Delhi. What was the state of things in previous years when Lord Morley was Secretary for India 1 The ship of State was carried through those troublous waters by the application of the ordinary law. Some of us who were in India a few years before all this occurred will remember what was the state of tranquility and how murders never occurred—
I think the hon. Gentleman is going a very long way from the details of this Bill, and he is allowing himself a great deal more latitude than he wished to allow to the hon. Member for East Nottingham.
I will come now to the Bill. I only wish to say that since the King's visit there we have had ample testimony to the peaceful condition of the country. The Bill seems to me to put an end for ever to the ancient system which has disappeared from the enactments by which the Governor-General remains Governor of Bengal, and when he is away the senior member of the Council acts as Governor in his place. For a very long time Calcutta has been flavoured with a strong European scent, and we have been told that the position of the Lieutenant Governor was endangered owing to the restrictions and to the lack of that kind of training which many of the Governors sent out from this country had possessed. So far as I know, the natives of Bengal are well satisfied with what has been done, and the result has been to produce much greater contentment and public peace, with a far better state of affairs than ever before. The treatment of Bihar and Orissa is another instance of the careful way in which this measure has been drafted, and as regards the establishing of a Council which will lead to the introduction of members of the Civil Service as colleagues of the Lieutenant-Governor and which will introduce native gentlemen into that position, it is only carrying out what has already been sanctioned by previous Acts. I am glad to see that power is taken to give Legislative Councils and authorities to include natives as well as Commissioners, and I must say that in Assam it is highly desirable that the Department should continue on the lines already embarked upon, as there is so much European capital invested there. When one comes to minuter criticisms, I have to say that the provision which enables the Governor-General to appoint to five vacancies on the Bench of the High Court, is a very reasonable one indeed. Then we come to Clause 4, which quotes the East India Act of 1793. Section 57 prohibits the appointments of anyone to the Civil Service to posts of £500 under three years' residence in India; of £1,500 under six years'; of £3,000 under nine years', and of £4,000 under 12 years'. Is this still on the Statute Book, or is it part of what the present Bill repeals? I think that on the whole it is a good Act which is absolutely necessary. I do not think we have any reason to take a sad or melancholy view of this movement. It has been going on very well during the last few years, and I think India will be very well satisfied to hear that this Bill has passed its Second Reading.
5.0 P.M.
I have no desire, and no intention whatever, to criticise in any way either the events that led up to the introduction of this Bill or the objects which are to be carried out by this Bill. I do not wish to touch upon any controversial points. I think that we all agree that the announcement made by His Majesty the King Emperor, at Delhi, as to the administrative changes to be brought about by this Bill was loyally received and acclaimed by the whole of the vast concourse of the various peoples of India assembled there, people representing every race, every creed, and every climate in India, from the snows of the North to the tropics of the South. Nothing could possibly have shown to us more vividly the fervent loyalty of the various peoples of India to their Sovereign than the accounts we have read of that great and ever memorable assemblage at Delhi. Nothing could have manifested more the intense pleasure and delight of the people of India at the presence of their Sovereign amongst them than the accounts we have read of the behaviour of the vast crowds that assembled to greet His Majesty at every place where he stopped during his tour through the country. The people of India, of every race, seemed to have realised, in the presence of their Sovereign, that they had a real live Emperor of their own. The hon. Member for West Denbigh (Sir Herbert Roberts) said, it was really the commencement of a new era for India. I agree with him in that view. In my belief India can now look forward to a great place in the world as one of the important component parts of the vast British Empire. Within the Empire India has a great future of prosperity before her, but without the Empire India, could not stand alone by herself for one moment, and she would sink again into that utter ruin from which we rescued her after the Mahratta Wars of a century ago.
The announcement made by His Majesty at Delhi was an announcement that should have been final. I think there was one mistake which was made by His Majesty's Ministers, and that was the publication, concurrently with the announcement made by His Majesty, of the dispatch from the Government of India, and the reply thereto of the Secretary of State, giving all the pros and cons, the reasons, the arguments, and the justifications for the changes in the administration that were to be introduced. I can think of nothing in the world more likely than the publication of these dispatches to raise a storm of protest and of counter argument. For that reason I think that once His Majesty had decided to make the announcement in person, His Majesty's Ministers would have been better advised to have held their hands and have said nothing more. I should like to say one word on the subject of Delhi. We must never forget that our power to hold India and to protect India rests on the sea. The capital of India has hitherto always been on the sea, at a place where it could be dominated, so to speak, by the guns of our Fleet. We are to-day moving that capital a thousand miles inland. We are now building a large unprotected city out on a great, bare, open plain. The fall of Delhi as the British capital of India would mean the fall of India. It seems to me that the capital of India ought to be protected by great modern defence works, up-to-date modern works, just as much as Paris, or any other great inland capital in the centre of a country, is protected. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman who represents the Government to give definite instructions on this subject to the Government of India, and to see that as soon as the site for the new capital has been definitely decided upon a definite plan of up-to-date modern defences should be drawn up for the protection of the capital. Delhi in the future should be thoroughly defensible, and, in fact, should become the strongest place of arms in the whole of India.
Finally, I should like to say one word about Bengal. We have all read in the papers that there is, I am sorry to say, a feeling of soreness in the minds of many millions of Mahomedans in Eastern Bengal at having been placed again under the domination of Calcutta. I can well understand this feeling, but I will not dilate upon it. The Mahomedans of Eastern Bengal think they have lost their lately restored capital at Dacca, and with the loss of their capital all that had tended to raise their feelings of natural pride in their own country. That is a feeling which it is of the utmost importance to us should be allayed at once. There is only one way in which that feeling of soreness can be allayed, that is by deciding and laying it down, once for all, that Dacca is still to remain the capital of Eastern Bengal, and that the Governor of Bengal will give the same attention to Eastern Bengal as he does to Western Bengal. The Governor of Bombay has three residencies, and, roughly speaking, he spends his time equally between them. He spends the cold weather at Bombay, the hot weather at Mahabaleshwar, and the rains at Poona. I think the Governor of Bengal should similarly spend his cold weather in Calcutta, his hot weather at Darjeeling, and his rains at Dacca. We have seen it stated in the papers that the new Government of Bengal, that is the Governor and the Government Secretariats, were to spend at least two months of the year in Dacca, but so far as I can see there is no provision for this in the Bill. Unless this injunction is definitely provided for by law the Mahomedans of Eastern Bengal have no guarantee that it will be carried into effect. I say that this injunction is absolutely necessary, and that if we are to retain the trust and confidence of the great Mahomedan population of India, it is necessary that we should have a public assurance on this point. I therefore appeal to the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to give us a public assurance that this arrangement will be made, and either introduced into this Bill, or some other Bill which will have an equally binding effect.
I am inclined to support the suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Yate), because I think, in the first place, it is very necessary to allay any suspicion or anxiety there may be in the minds of the Mahomedan people in Bengal that their interests will in any way suffer under the changes which are proposed to be made. I think it will be advisable, if it is possible to do so, to do what the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggests, namely, lay down that the Governor of Bengal should spend the cold weather at Calcutta, the hot weather in Darjeeling, and that he should visit Dacca during the rains. I am not sure that I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman when he suggests that the whole of the Secretariat should be removed from Calcutta to Dacca, but that is a question of detail.
I think that the late Lieutenant-Governor of Eastern Bengal had a Government House there, and that Secretariat offices have been built at Dacca.
It is a point of detail, and in the main I agree with what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said. There was one suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman in moving the Second Heading of the Bill, which was that he hoped that in no short time it would be possible to consolidate all the Acts which have been passed by this House relating to India. I trust he will take an early opportunity of bringing that about. It would be convenient not only to Members of this House, but to the public in this country and in India generally. I desire to say one word in regard to what was said by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Bonar Law) and the hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), whom we are glad to welcome back in this House, and who has lost none of those gifts of eloquence with which he delighted the House in the past. The right hon. Gentleman quoted a resolution which was passed at a meeting in Calcutta, and said that was evidence of the fact that there was no consensus of opinion in India as to these changes. We know very well that it is not possible to satisfy everyone, even in Bengal. We know there has been an attempt on the part of certain sections of the people in Bengal to annex certain portions of Bihar. There have been various reasons given for that. I do not think the Bengal is who passed that resolution are likely to obtain those particular portions of Bihar, which, added to Bengal, would no doubt give great satisfaction to them. The right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for East Nottingham said that there was a volume of evidence to show that this policy was by no means acclaimed by all classes throughout India. The same thing was said by Lord Curzon, speaking in another place. I should like to quote in that connection the views, which are not my views, but the views of the commercial community in Calcutta and in Bombay, which were expressed at a date subsequent to that on which the Debate in the House of Lords took place. I have not here the actual letter written by the Bengal Chamber of Commerce, but I have the reply of the Government of India to that letter. This is what the Government of India say referring to the letter received by the Bengal Chamber of Commerce:—
"It is a matter of no small satisfaction to the Government of India to receive the assurance of your committee that in its opinion no diminution of the commercial and industrial importance of Calcutta need be apprehended from the removal of the capital to Delhi, while it is anticipated that as the result of the strengthening of the local Government by its elevation to the status of a Governorship in Council, discontent may be allayed and the material prosperity of the people may be enhanced.".
It is the Government of India that loses by being deprived of the advice of the Calcutta folk, and not the Calcutta folk, who will lose by losing the Government of India.
But that is not quite the point. The right hon. Gentleman said that this policy was by no means acclaimed by all classes in India, and I am merely quoting this to show that the commercial opinion of Calcutta is not against the change, and the same thing may be said of the commercial opinion of Bombay. Mr. Armstrong, the chairman of the Bombay Chamber of Commerce, said:—
"The announcement at the Durbar of the transfer of the capital from Calcutta to Delhi, was altogether unexpected and naturally caused the greatest surprise, but it was soon recognised that on the whole the move was a wise one, and that the method of its announcement was also wise."
I give these two opinions to show that commercial opinion in Bombay and Calcutta does not seem, at any rate from these particular opinions, averse to this change, and the commercial opinion of Bombay and Calcutta is by no means unimportant in this respect. However, it is now a fait accompli, and no good can be done by discussing it. A point which presents some interest to me is the manner in which the new city of Delhi, of which the King laid the foundation-stone, is going to be laid out. I think this presents a unique opportunity for town planning.
I do not think that comes within the scope of this Bill at all.
I hope on the Indian Budget we may have an opportunity of discussing this and the question of raising fortifications round Delhi, which could not be discussed properly now without going into many reasons for and against.
I think the Government presume a very great deal upon the well-known spirit of fair play which actuates the Opposition in regard to the Government of India and their foreign policy. On this side of the House we are very careful not to make it difficult for the Government to carry out their policy regarding foreign countries, India, and the Colonies, but I think we have a right to protest against the present action of the Government in regard to the question raised by this Bill. The Government, of course, rely upon the confidence of those who sit on that side of the House for support for their executive acts. They have no right to rely upon the confidence of those who sit upon this side of the House in the same way, but the spirit which we have shown regarding this Bill and regarding the acts of the Government concerning India is that which the Government itself would commend. As a private Member and as one who has been in the House for some time, and has watched the growth of executive power, I feel very strongly that the act which preceded this Bill, and which made this Bill necessary, is one which ought not to have taken place, except by the assent not only of those who support the Government, but also of those who oppose and criticise it upon its general policy. I am not going to discuss whether the change of policy regarding Bengal is right or not, or to raise the question of whether the change of capital was right or not, but this Bill is an extremely serious thing and their act was still more serious. By an executive act they have initiated a great and general policy and followed it up by a Bill which we cannot conscientiously oppose, because it would mean the reversal of their executive act in a Dependency where this House ought to show a general consensus of opinion and of assent, when the Government acts, as it does, for the Empire. I think the seriousness of this act has not been fully realised by the Government in regard to its responsibility to this House, and it is a very grave responsibility. This Bill represents an initiation of policy, following their executive act, which should not have taken place to my mind, and I believe to the minds of all Members on this side of the House, without a discussion in the House, which would have been heard and understood by the country, and which would have enabled us to express an opinion upon the whole general policy of the Government. The fatal thing, as it seems to me, concerning this executive act and this Bill, is that it initiates a policy which we cannot reverse without very serious disturbance of the administration of India, and without the danger of creating in India an agitation which would only revive the difficulties of the past. I therefore take the liberty of saying to the Government that their action does not commend itself to a great many Members on this side of the House, who forebear to make it difficult for them to carry out their present executive purposes.
I rise to reinforce the protest made by the hon. Member (Sir G. Parker). I am not going to take action other than that indicated by the Leader of the Opposition, not because I agree with any single Clause in the Bill, but simply because we have never had an opportunity of making our criticism until it is too late to be effectual in any sense. It is too late, because the whole machinery for carrying out these changes, against which many of us most strongly protest, is enshrined in the Preamble. We feel that that Preamble is going to cover a large multitude of sins against which we, the representatives of the people of this country, are the only people who have not been given an opportunity of protesting. It really is, from the point of view of the House of Commons, a most serious thing that the House of Lords has had two opportunities of discussing the whole of this matter from beginning to end, while by the forms of this House it would not be in order to discuss it. We may have an opportunity on the Indian Budget, but, if this occasion is too late, the other will be doubly late. If a change of this kind may be enshrined in a Preamble, Preambles are more dangerous things than we have hitherto expected, and the power of the House of Commons is largely destroyed. I do not know where this power of the Cabinet is really going to end. Every Session there is a more and more serious inroad upon the independence of the House of Commons by the growing power of the Cabinet which, in my opinion, is increasing and ought to be diminished. Having made that protest, and having said that I do not agree with any single one of the changes enshrined in the Preamble, I want to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he can give any information as to his revised estimate for the cost of these plans. We know that £4,000,000 was a grotesque under-estimate. Lord Crewe himself said it was the habit of the Indian Government to under-estimate. I thoroughly agree with Lord Curzon that £10,000,000 is much nearer the probable sum, but most conscientious critics put it down at not less than £8,000,000. I feel sure some re-estimate has been made, and I shall be very glad if we could have any information. Then with regard to the site of Delhi, I understand from a large number of friends in India who have been corresponding with me for two or three months, that the one site which is quite impossible is the site on which His Majesty has laid the foundation stone. I should be glad to know whether any later information has reached the Under-Secretary.
I cannot let one or two observations of the hon. Member (Mr. Malcolm) pass without a word of comment. What would have been the position suppose the Government had brought forward a proposition to alter the position of the capital of India in this House and had attempted to do that by Statute? Does anyone imagine for a moment that hon. Members opposite would not at once have plunged into a serious attack upon the Government for doing what it is quite evident they could have done by executive act and for unnecessarily bringing on the floor of the House the feelings which such an executive act must excite. If ever there was an excuse for carrying out what is, after all, an act of a benevolent despotism in India, this executive act of the Government in changing the position of the capital of India by an announcement through His Majesty himself is the most defensible act which could have been effected in connection with that Dependency. From first to last the law has been observed. The actual Bill we have before us is confined to carrying out absolutely necessary statutory changes. When one (considers, too, that the partition of Bengal was carried out by a purely executive act and in consonance with the rights of the Governor-General, was it to be supposed that we should bring this act, which must have struck the Oriental imagination more than almost anything else we could have done, on to the floor of the House, and discuss it here, with all the party dissensions which would follow? All I can say is that I do not think we ought to have had a discussion preliminary to such executive act. It would have been a most inappropriate discussion of this act of the Executive Government. I for my part am glad the Government carried out the matter in the way they did.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Colonel Greig) has made an extraordinary speech. According to the view of the hon. Gentleman it is apparently a very wrong thing to discuss a Bill in this House unless you approve of it and of the Government that brings it forward. Any criticism against the Government or against their Bills on the floor of this House is wrong. On the contrary, he seems to think that the Government should use the power they have as the Executive without the House of Commons being consulted at all. That is the democratic principle we hear from the hon. Gentleman. The great Radical party are desirous of putting the House of Commons on a pinnacle and of doing away with the other Chamber because it interferes with the functions of this House. We are to be the obedient slaves of the Government, and to say, "Thank you very much for even allowing us to look at you Bill, but we will not discuss it." I have been twenty years in this House, and I have never heard such an argument brought forward before. Unfortunately, the hon. Member's speech will not be reported in the Radical papers. I shall be pleased to go down to his constituency and point out what his idea is of liberty and freedom of speech as announced and explained in the speech he has just delivered. What is the use of the hon. Member being in his place in the House of Commons if he is not to criticise the proposals which are brought forward? The speeches this afternoon have been short., and I do not wish to go into the questions raised by the Bill, but I could not sit still and allow such a doctrine as that stated by the hon. Member to be heralded forth in all apparent seriousness by one of the hon. Gentlemen opposite who pretend that they are the supporters of freedom and democracy.
I have not the right to address the House again, but perhaps I may be allowed to reply to some of the questions which have been put to me. The hon. Member behind me asked whether the repeal or alteration of certain Sections of the Act of 1793 will affect the position of the Indian Civil Service. The answer is emphatically in the negative. This Bill only repeals parts of the Statute which were not repealed when the rest of the Statute was repealed in 1865. The hon. and gallant Member opposite (Colonel Yate) put three specific points. The first was as to the defence of Delhi. I want to assure him that I think the authorities are agreed that the strategical position of Delhi as the central point of the railway system of India is a very good one, but the weighty words which the hon. and gallant Member addressed to the House will, of course, be noted by those who are concerned with these affairs. We come to a much more substantial point when we consider the position of the Mahomedans in Eastern Bengal. A lot has been said in various places and in various newspapers about the Mahomedan section in India as affected by those changes. It would be a mistake, as the hon. and gallant Member knows well, to talk of the Mahomedan people of India as though they were a homogeneous people of one nationality. The Mahomedans of Eastern Bengal are the descendants of Hindu converts, or are Hindu converts themselves, and have little or no relation except that of their religion with those three-fifths of the Mahomedan population of India outside the limits of Bengal, who constitute so largely the fighting races of the north. So far as the Mahomedan population outside Bengal is concerned, they have a substantial boon in the restoration of Delhi, which they have always regarded as the capital of historic India. They have shown, as I am sure the hon. and gallant Member knows, enthusiasm and have gratefully acknowledged and accepted the change.
With regard to the inhabitants of Bengal who are Mahomedans, their position is very carefully safeguarded under the Bill. They are perhaps the most backward part, or one of the most backward parts, of the population of the old Presidency of Bengal, and they are keenly and eagerly desirous of new educational facilities. They are to have a new university which will be largely used for the benefit of Mahomedans, and that is one of the most valuable directions in which they profit by the new arrangements. They will form in the Presidency of Bengal rather more than half of the population. I could give the House statistics to prove that there will be more Mahomedans than Hindus, but, roughly speaking, they are about equally divided. Then under the Act of 1909; they have special representation and special facilities for obtaining that representation. I can only point to the fact that in the three Executive Councillors who have been appointed by His Majesty the King for Bengal, the Indian Member is a well-known Mahomedan. There is also the question of Dacca. It is the avowed and declared intention of the Government that the new Governor of Bengal must spend a substantial part of each year in Dacca in the Government Building. Of that policy there can be no doubt. It is not to be a statutory provision. The hon. Member gave an example, and pointed to the fact that the Governor of Bombay spends part of each year in Poona. In exactly the same way, I think, the Governor of Bengal will go to Dacca. The Mahomedans of the province of Eastern Bengal are perfectly entitled to rest assured that that will be part of the settled policy.
It has never been the policy of the British Government in India to interfere with and construct artificially regions, territories, and provinces for the benefit of one race or one religion. They have always tried to hold impartially the balance between different races and religions. If it be claimed that the partition of Bengal in 1905 was a policy intended to set up a Mahomedan province, then I say emphatically that that departure from British policy for which Lord Curzon will stand revealed to have been guilty was a far greater blunder than his worst critics have accused him of committing. But Lord Curzon will be the first to admit that there was no such policy. I refer to the words in which the hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) was welcomed back to the House in surroundings which,. I think, will be more congenial to his ultra-Conservative views. The hon. Member was one of those who talked about this new policy as a reversal of the old policy. I do not mean it disrespectfully of one of the greatest Viceroys we have ever had when I say that Lord Curzon in this matter had no policy of any sort or kind. He was a great administrator. He was the administrator who produced an efficiency which is one of the most cherished possessions of the Indian Government at the present moment. But his concern was with an unwieldly province. He found it too big, and determined to divide it. He moved nationalities about and he moved individuals about as though they were automatons: that was the root of the evil.
The hon. Gentleman is speaking now by leave of the House, and I wish to know whether he can enter into this controversial matter, to which none of us can have the opportunity of replying.
I apologise to the hon. Member if he thinks that I am doing something I ought not to do. I quite appreciate that it is only by the courtesy of the House that I can speak now. The hon. Member for East Nottingham charged us with reversing the old policy.
We did not discuss it. I would have done so if I had been at liberty to do it.
The hon. Member made the charge that we were reversing Lord Curzon's policy, and I am defending the Government against that charge. I shall content myself with having said what I have said.
Go on.
The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London has been good enough to extend to me an invitation of which I shall be glad to avail myself. I wish to point out that much of the criticism made by hon. Members opposite this afternoon against this measure would have been more appropriate if they had been of policy which we were going to reverse. The hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir Gilbert Parker) and the hon. Member for Croydon (Mr. Malcolm) based themselves upon the great constitutional outrage which had been perpetrated by the Executive Government, which is increasingly arrogating to itself powers, and which is bringing about these changes before the consent of Parliament has been obtained. The hon. Member for Groydon is not quite accurate in his facts. He talked of two opportunities which the House of Lords have had for discussing this matter. I would point out that the House of Lords had no opportunity of discussing this matter before it was a settled fact. They took the opportunity of discussing on two occasions after it had "become a settled fact. In this Session of Parliament hon. Members opposite could nave had similar opportunities by raising the subject on the Debate on the Address or they could have asked a day for the discussion of it afterwards. They deliberately did not do so. Neither of these opportunities have been taken.
Mr. Speaker has already ruled that it is out of Order.
I do not understand that the hon. Member is in a better position than myself to decide points of Order. The Bill concerns the whole of the re-partition of Bengal, the creation of the new provinces of Bihar and Orissa, the segregation of Assam under a new Chief Com-missionership, and these matters and nine-tenths of the Durbar policy could have been discussed under this Bill, and in so far as the removal of the capital was incidental to the changes in Bengal that was equally in order. That has not been done by hon. Members. They claim great patriotism in refusing to discuss the matter. The fact of the matter is that there are some acts which this House, or the great majority of its Members, have never claimed, and rightly never claimed, to criticise.
I suggest with regard to policy in India that the practice of this House never has been to claim to criticise in detail the administrations in India before certain acts have been accomplished. I base myself upon the speech made by Mr. Gladstone on the Indian Councils Act Amendment Bill in this House on the 20th March, 1892:—
I venture to suggest that the root of the hon. Gentleman's objection is this, that there are in India as has often been said in this House, two kinds of agitation. One is the agitation which is the genuine expression of a genuine grievance, or what the people believe to be one; a grievance against an outraged nationality; an agitation which is the genuine desire for redress of something which is wrong. Then there are those agitators often of anti-British purpose who take advantage of the existence of that grievance who are almost a parasitic growth upon the legitimate unrest. That kind of agitation is almost if not quite dead. It was wisely handled and severely repressed during Lord Morley's Secretaryship of State, when Lord Morley and Lord Minto used exceptional measures for dealing with that sort of agitation, which was not genuine and could not be permitted to continue. But the real, deep, bitter resentment against the line which Lord Curzon drew right across the Bengali-speaking district, the sentimental grievance, the grievance of unfair and disproportionate representation, remained as deep after that long interval as it did when the new state of affairs was first created. That kind of agitation was at the root of everything that was threateningly wrong in India. I conceive it to be the wisest kind of statesmanship to investigate this grievance to see how well founded it was to remove the grievance and to settle a national wrong. So no one can say that we have responded to illegitimate clamour or have done more than merely redress a grievance which would remain as great as long as it lasted.
Does the hon. Gentleman include the compounding of a felony by the Government of India among these wise measures?
The hon. Member is bringing a new charge which I will be happy in a general Debate to prove to be as unfounded as any of the other charges which he has brought. But it would be trespassing too far on the matter before the House at present to deal with it now. The hon. Member for Croydon asked me a question about the finance in connection with the establishment of the new capital. The Estimate with regard to Delhi remains to-day what it was. It is not possible yet to submit the revised Estimate. The hon. Member is at liberty to suggest twelve millions. He has opportunities doubtless of arriving at a more accurate figure than the Government of India. But the Estimate given was put forward by the Government of India and accepted by the Secretary of State with due regard to the existing difficulties. There are all sorts of offsets to be made. New buildings would have been necessary if the seat of Government had remained unchanged, and there is a certain amount of profit to set off against outlay, appreciation in the Government lands and the sale of certain land and buildings. It is a rough general guess. The site is now being surveyed" by an expert Committee, and as soon as the revised estimates are available they will, of course, be presented to the House. But it is as fair to assume that the expenditure would be approximately four million pounds as to assume that it would be approximately eight million pounds. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition with other Members referred to the change of policy which was obtaining as the result of this measure. He quoted the words of my Noble Friend the Secretary of State in the House of Lords, and words of my own in Cambridge, and he suggested that there was a discrepancy between them. The dispatch and the answer to the dispatch have been published in the White Paper, and the words of paragraph 3 are definite and unmistakable, and I should have thought would have admitted of no possible doubt, and if a microscopic examination can detect any difference of meaning in the words that I used at Cambridge and the words which my chief used in the House of Lords, I will ask the House to attribute the difference to the obvious difference of atmosphere between the other place and the platform in my own Constituency.
There is to be no immediate step, no resulting step as a consequence of the changes which the House this afternoon is passing, but surely, when every moving section of the people of India has got a policy, when there are preachers and teachers all over the country advocating this and that course of action, and some are advocating policies which are hostile to British interests, it was not out of place I conceive to show to the people of India, as Lord Hardinge did in paragraph 3 of this dispatch, that there was a direction in which the British occupation was tending that there was some definite aim and object to which in the opinion of the Government in India all these changes might be co-related, that we were there not merely to administer, but to develop India on a plan which had been thought out by those who had been advising the Secretary of State. That is, as I understand, the meaning of paragraph 3, and as such I regard it as one of the most important parts of that historic dispatch. In conclusion I thank the hon. Members of the Opposition for their courtesy in allowing me to speak, and also for the generous way they have treated this question in determining not to divide upon it. If there is one matter which I might respectfully venture to put forward it is that I feel a deep regret that even those who confined their remarks entirely to the way in which these changes have been brought about took an opportunity by some side phrases—the hon. Member for Gravesend and the hon. Member for Croydon in particular—to express their doubts of and their disagreement with the policy and the Bill which carries it out.
I expressly said that I would forbear from making a single remark about change of policy, and I did not make any such remark.
6.0 P.M.
And then you added that there were large numbers of people in India who had grave doubts as to its efficacy. What I mean to say is that I should have wished it had been clear to the people of India that what they believed to be a great step forward in the process of governing that country was the gift offered by His Majesty at the Durbar on the advice of his responsible Ministers from the people of Great Britain in respect of party. And it is a matter, I think, for regret that Lord Curzon, who has spoken most on the subject, adopted an attitude of complete hostility, and so far, as in this Debate, any expression of opinion has come from those benches at all it has been either of opposition like that of the hon. Member for Croydon or one of dissociation like the assertion of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. Why was it wrong for His Majesty most graciously to make this announcement himself at the Durbar? Is it that the Leader of the Opposition objects to the policy of Durbar boons altogether, or is it simply that people feel that there is a peculiar sanctity about a policy recommended by His Majesty the King on the advice of his Ministers which does not touch the policy recommended by the Viceroy on behalf of His Majesty the King, and with the sanction of the Ministers? The same sanctity in our opinion would have attached to the Proclamation had it been made by the Viceroy as attached, and I think rightly attached, to it when it was made by His Majesty the King.
The Opposition have not had an opportunity of discussing what was done under the cover of His Majesty's prerogative, and the Opposition and those who oppose this policy are really deprived of the opportunity of stating their objections.
I am merely suggesting that there has been no difference in the treatment of the question from the announcement having been made by His Majesty instead of by the Viceroy. It was announced in His Majesty's gracious speech from the Throne at Delhi, as contrasted with Lord Curzon's partition £ Bengal, by Viceregal Proclamations. In spite of the criticisms which have been made, and notwithstanding some small questions of boundary readjustment which remain, I am profoundly convinced that this policy has been welcomed by the overwhelming majority of all races and all creeds, and that it will open, as the hon. Member for Melton has said, a new era of peace, contentment and progress in India. There is every sign upon the horizon which gives those who are proud of the achievements of the Government of India great hope of increasing contentment, increasing; prosperity and increasing consent of the governed to be governed by those whose policy shows sympathy with their legitimate aspirations.
I hope I may be permitted, as a new Member, to welcome the reappearance in this House of the hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees). I had not the advantage of listening to him in the previous Parliament, when he spoke from these benches, but I know that he has large knowledge of Indian subjects. I have read what he has spoken and written, and I know enough of the treatment of affairs in India. in this House to welcome any man whatever be his views, who takes an interest in Indian affairs. Far too little interest in the affairs of India is taken by Members of this House, and though, judging from what I have read of the views of the hon. Member opposite, and from what I have heard to-day, there is little likelihood of my agreeing to any very great extent with him, yet I am confident that the presence of one who takes a great interest in India, and who speaks with such knowledge, cannot but conduce to a fuller appreciation and discussion of questions relating to' India, and will in the long run redound to the benefit of India and to the education; of public opinion in this country. The hon. Member for East Nottingham began by a reference to a very distinguished Anglo-Indian who preceded him in the representation of East Nottingham—Sir Henry Cotton. He told us in a very sweeping sentence that he did not agree with a single word Sir Henry Cotton had uttered in this House. That is a very sweeping statement indeed. I should have thought it hardly possible for any Member of this House to speak here without at least using some word that would find some measure of agreement opposite, and this wholesale, sweeping, and universal condemnation of every word and every comma of every speech of Sir Henry Cotton shows the partisan attitude of mind which is adopted by the hon. Gentleman in dealing with these questions.
I observe that the hon. Member for East Nottingham rejoices in the contrast which is now exhibited by his representing East Nottingham in a completely different sense from that of the previous Member for East Nottingham. What was it that was characteristic of the speeches of the previous hon. Member for East Nottingham? According to the present Member for that constituency, it was characteristic of him that he was one of a small band of people who always seemed to take a delight in attacking the Indian Government and officials of the Indian Government. That was the character of the speech which the present hon. Member for East Nottingham Las delivered. He is attacking the policy of the Indian Government. I am here in my capacity of a new Member, and though I have not so much knowledge of India as other hon. Members, yet at least I have as great an interest as they in the good government of India. I would defend the policy of the Indian Government from the rash and reckless attacks of people like the present Member for East Nottingham. A characteristic of the attitude which the hon. Gentleman has adopted is the attack which he has made upon the magistrates in India and upon the judges in India.
That subject has been rather headed off.
I only wished to refer to the matter in passing. Two subjects were mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition to which I wish to refer. The first was his attack upon the policy of the Indian Government in carrying out this policy not by means of an Act of Parliament, but by means of a Proclamation, and through existing powers of the Indian Government. He likened this, in a casual remark, to the use of the Royal Prerogative, which we agree, of course, ought only to be called into play in extreme and exceptional circumstances. The very point of the Under-Secretary's introductory speech was that this policy had not been carried out by use of the Royal Prerogative, but had been carried out by means of statutory powers handed over by Statute to the Indian Government. It is a very different thing exercising the powers which a Government has by Statute from exercising the Royal Prerogative. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition might just as well object to any great measure carried out by a Colonial Legislature. We leave them to carry out their own policy. In the same way the Indian Government, though not a democratic Government, yet still a properly constituted Government, has statutory powers which enables it to carry out its policy in its own way. I think the attack upon this policy as an exercise of the Royal Prerogative misses entirely the whole point of procedure which the Indian Government adopted. The second point to which I wish to refer was the attempt of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition to find some conflict between the various Members of the Government in their utterances on this subject. He first of all referred to the announcement of the Indian Government sketching in broad outline what was the possible future development of the Government of India. I would just like to read from the dispatch a few lines in which that policy is outlined. Lord Hardinge and his colleagues say:— what the Secretary of State said was that the tendency which might be expected to continue was further decentralisation in all matters of a provincial character. The Leader of the Opposition seemed to think there was a divergence between those two views. He seemed to think that in the announcement of the Indian Government they outlined a system of federal Government for India, and that the Secretary of State had dissociated himself from that. There is not a word in the announcement of the Government of India, not one single word which can be construed as indicating a federal system. What the Government of India called attention to is the gradual, growing, and accelerating process of devolution in India, of the devolution of certain local powers in regard, to provincial government. That is not a new policy. The whole attitude of the previous Viceroy (Lord Curzon) is one favouring and advocating this very-policy. What was his case for the partition of Bengal. It was that the Government and administration of this huge province, embracing a population of between 70,000,000 and 80,000,000, was beyond the wit of any one man to accomplish successfully. Accordingly he effected the partition and devolved the power upon several instead of upon one. In their announcement the Government of India merely called attention to the necessity for further progress in this very policy which have been approved by previous Governments, and by previous Viceroys, and not only by those who were associated with the Liberal Party.
There is a good deal of misunderstanding about the word "federation" in this connection. To my mind the word federation implies or involves the coming together of independent Governments, of independent bodies, the division of their sovereignty and the allocation of a certain part of their sovereignty to a central body, or, on the other hand, it involves the division of sovereignty of a central body and the distribution of parts of that sovereignty to subordinate local bodies. In the process which has obtained in India in the past, and which is indicated in the Indian Government announcement, there is absolutely no division of sovereignty. The sovereignty of the central Government of India would remain absolute and unimpaired and the powers which have been conferred, which are being conferred, and which will continue to be conferred in the future upon provincial governments in India will never be independent of the central Government, will never conflict with the central Government, and will not in any degree diminish the sovereignty of the central Government. Therefore, that policy can never be described as federation. The words used by the Indian Government do not indicate federation, and in disassociating himself completely from any idea of federation, the Secretary of State indicated no divergent view from the announcements of the Indian Government. The Under-Secretary of State, in the speech which he delivered at Cambridge, repeated the words of the announcemnt of the Indian Government or, as the Leader of the Opposition put it to-day, he dotted the is and scored the t's. He called attention to the policy which has been proceeding there, and which we all recognise must continue and must grow, but nothing that he said indicated any divergence from the views of the Secretary of State when he disassociated himself from the the idea of federalism. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has discovered a mare's nest when he discovered any divergence of view on the part of Members of the Government on this question.
There is only one other matter to which I should like to refer. I think I can do so as this is referred to by Clause 4, which reaffirms the powers of the Governor-General in Council to make any distributions and arrangement of territories as between the various Presidencies. No one, of course, expects that everything that is desirable in India in the way of re-partition and in the way of redistribution can be accomplished in one swoop. There are two matters which I had hoped might have been accomplished at the present time but which have not been accomplished. In the first place, there is the long continued partition of the Orissa-speaking peoples, who speak the same language as in Orissa, but who for historical reasons are now associated with the Presidency of Madras and not with that of Bengal. I had hoped it would have been found possible in settling the boundaries of the new Province of Bihar and Orissa, to have included the district of Ganjam, from the Presidency of Madras, which is almost entirely peopled by Uriya-speaking people, speaking the same language and having the same religion and customs at the people of Orissa. There are only a few, though we are speaking in millons, of them in the Presidency of Madras, and they are unequally yoked together with Madras. They are there with people of a different race, speaking a different language and with different religious and caste customs They suffer enormously in their intellectual, development and culture through that association. In the University of Madras they are very much restricted owing to the difficulty of language and the different caste and religious customs. They are very much hampered in matters of administration, even when the administrators are natives, as they are people who speak a foreign language. Their educational facilities are restricted because there is a dearth of teachers, and their judicial system is conducted in an unfair way. They are very much in the position that people of England were in after the Norman Conquest, when the whole administration of English affairs was conducted in French.
It would have been an enormous boon to the people of the Ganjam district if they could have been associated with the new province of Bihar and Orissa. Almost similar conditions prevail on the eastern side with the district of Sylhet which is now, according to this redistribution, to be associated with Assam, instead of with Bengal. That district of Sylhet has a vastly preponderating proportion of people speaking Bengali, and the same in sympathy, in customs, in culture, and in ideals as the people of Bengal. They are now to be associated with Assam, a people of a different race, different customs, and a different system of administration than that which prevails in their present district. One great deprivation which they suffer is that if they had been associated with Bengal they would have had some representation in the government of the province. Being associated with Assam, which is a Chief Commissionership and in a much more backward state not enjoying such a measure of representation as Bengal, they will not have the advantage of influencing the policy of the government of their district in the same way as they would have done if they had been associated with Bengal.
They will have representation in the same way
I did not gather that, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for calling my attention to it. That particular point about representation in the Legislature then falls to the ground, but that does not remove the other points. on which I laid stress as to being associated with an overwhelming majority of people with a completely different language and customs and ideals and sympathy. There are those two outlying questions, one on the west and the other on the east. I welcome this reaffirmation of the power of the Governor-General in future to make new distributions and arrangements of territory. I think on these two particular questions the mind of the Indian Government is still open and the policy is not absolutely fixed and determined beyond the possibility of revision in the future. I venture to express the hope that in the policy which the Government has so well begun of carrying on the administration of India, the development of India in harmony and in sympathy with the ideals and desires of the Indian people, which it must do if our rule is to be permanent, it will find the means in the future to meet the views of the inhabitants of those places in this matter.
Question put, and agreed to.
Read a second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for to-morrow.—[ Mr. Montagu. ]
Inebriates Bill
Order for Second Beading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
I need not remind the House that the subject matter of this Bill is of very great importance, and one that demands, I think, the careful attention of the House. It is now fourteen years since the last Inebriates Act was passed. During that period a great deal of knowledge has been gained and a great deal of experience accumulated which have helped us in preparing this Bill. There is no doubt that the great mass of evidence in the intervening years points to the necessity of amending legislation. The main provisions of this Bill are-founded upon the recommendations of the Departmental Committee presided over by, as he then was, Sir John Dickson Poynder, which was appointed and which reported in 1908. The hon. Member for the Oswestry Division (Mr. Bridgeman) was also a Member of that Departmental Committee. It is common knowledge that there are a vast number of people, who, as a consequence of habitual drinking, are the cause of serious harm and suffering to members of their family and to themselves, and are also in many cases dangerous to themselves and to others. At present there are two methods of dealing with this class of people. If a man or woman can be induced voluntarily to enter a retreat, he or she can, while in that retreat, be subjected to restraining and reforming influences. It is not necessary to add that in a great number of cases people in this condition will not submit themselves to voluntary treatment. With regard to inebriates who have committed offences against the law, they can in certain cases be sent to reformatories. There are two classes of those inebriates who commit offences. There is the first class, consisting of people convicted on indictment of offences punishable by imprisonment or penal servitude, drunkenness being a contributory cause to the offence, and who are found by the Courts to be habitual drunkards under Section 1 of the Act of 1898. Many difficulties have arisen in putting this Section into operation, and during the last twelve years less than 600 persons have been dealt with under the Section.
The second class consists of people dealt with summarily and convicted of drunken conduct four times within twelve months. These are cases under Section 2 of the Act of 1898, but only about 3,500 persons have been dealt with under this Section during the last twelve years. When the House remembers that during the last twelve years there have been about 2,000,000 convictions for drunkenness in the Courts of Summary Jurisdiction in this country, and when they remember also the repeated statements of magistrates, prison officials, and others, regarding the habitually drunken character of a considerable percentage of these 2,000,000 cases, the inadequacy of the present provisions is amply apparent. The Departmental Committee to which I have already referred, found that less than 1.5 per 1,000 convicted of drunkenness were sent to reformatories. For many years the Inspector of Inebriate Reformatories has been calling attention to the futility and inhumanity of the present system of dealing with confirmed inebriates. If I may, and I think it will be useful to do so, I will quote an extract from the Report of the inspector for 1905. This is what he says:—
There was also a Committee in 1898.
I am much obliged to the hon. Member. I know he is well versed in the subject. These were formal inquiries, and the curious thing is that each and every one of these three Departmental Committees, even the one which sat as far back as forty years ago, recommended the step we are proposing to take. The Committee of 1908 said (in paragraph 31):— In sub-Clause 5, provision is made that before an inebriate is committed, a trial shall be made of the provisions of the Bill as to voluntary submission to restriction.
Hitherto the only provision for voluntary submission has been that in the Act of 1879, by which an inebriate, if he can be induced to sign before a magistrate a request for admission to a retreat, will be subject to a period of restraint. This Bill adds two further methods of voluntary treatment. The first is a statutory pledge entered into before a justice, and the second is voluntary submission to the care of a guardian, who will have legal power to prescribe the inebriate's place of residence, and also to restrain him from having access to intoxicating drinks. The first provision as to the pledge is meant partly to strengthen the will of the inebriate, which is a very important matter, and it is also to warn him of what will happen to him if he breaks the statutory undertaking into which he has entered. The second provision, as to submission to a guardian, is recommended by the Committee of 1908 on the ground
Now I come to the second part of the Bill, dealing with the inebriates who have been guilty of offences. If I indicate very shortly the reasons that have made the Act of 1898 inadequate, I shall also have indicated the changes made by the present Bill. Under the Act of 1898 it has been necessary to prove in indictable cases that the offender was a habitual drunkard as defined by the Act of 1898, and in other cases that the offender was an habitual drunkard and had been committed for drunkenness four times in twelve months. The Bill gets rid of both these limitations, and empowers the Court to commit to a reformatory an offender who has been found to be an inebriate within the careful definition of Clause 49 of this Bill. One of the points that I submit to the consideration of the House in favour of this Bill is the new definition Clause, because there can be no doubt that the existing definition has greatly hindered the effectiveness of the present Act.
The second reason for the failure of the present Act was that committals to reformatories were for periods not exceeding three years. The practice gradually sprung up of making the maximum the minimum, and inebriates who were convicted of criminal offences were generally committed for three years and not less. That was such a long period that magistrates not unnaturally hesitated somewhat to take that course. We propose to substitute a maximum of six months for the first committal, and not less than one year or more than three years on subsequent committals. Further, with a view to improving the supervision and after-care of these inebriates, which is a very important point, the Bill also provides for a period of probation after their release from detention.
One of the principal reasons why the present law is inadequate is that we lack reformatory accommodation. The Act of 1898 enabled accommodation to be provided, but there was no compulsion on the local authorities or anyone to provide accommodation. Under this Act an obligation to provide institutions is imposed upon the local authority. The Government proposes to help them by a Treasury Grant towards the cost of maintenance. I would also call the attention of the House to one feature in the Bill which is new, that is the definition of the word "intoxicants." It henceforward will include any intoxicating liquor and any sedative, narcotic, stimulant drug, or preparation. Morphia, cocaine, and similar drugs will come within the definition of that Clause.
There are a great many matters of detail in the Bill, but I have endeavoured to put as shortly as I might the principal provisions, and I hope that after my explanation, and after hon. Members have perused the Bill, hostility to it will be minimised; at any rate I am sure the House will appreciate the fact that something must be done for this class of men and women. The present law is entirely inadequate. I commend the principles of this Bill—there are no doubt many points of detail that can be taken into account in Committee—which really I think may be regarded as non-contentious and non-controversial, and I ask for a unanimous vote in favour of a Second Reading.
I am sure the House will agree in thanking the hon. Member for his most explicit and sympathetic statement with reference to the provisions of this Bill and the very difficult problem which it is intended to solve. The hon. Gentleman has described it largely as a Bill to confer new powers upon his own Department, and also upon the local authorities to deal particularly with the class of confirmed inebriates. He did not mention what is a most important fact: that it is in the main a consolidating measure, and that it does in fact codify all the existing laws relating to inebriety and habitual drunkards. The fact that the law is contained in so many different Acts of Parliament at the present time, and is so diffuse, has undoubtedly caused great difficulty to the local authorities and the Courts in dealing with the persons affected thereby. Everyone in all quarters of the House will agree that many of these confirmed inebriates should, in the interests both of themselves and the community at large, not be treated in any sense as criminal. They ought to be rather treated as helpless children. As I understand the principle of this Bill, in future they are to be so treated by, first of all, giving them the opportunity of allowing themselves to pass under the control of a guardian, if they are sufficiently sensible of their condition to do so, or, failing that, to bring compulsory powers to bear upon them with a view to their detention, not only in their own interests, not with a view to deprive them of their liberty, but rather with a view to prevent the liberty of the public at large being seriously interfered with by their being at large and under no control.
So far as that is concerned, I, for one, am entirely in sympathy with the principles and the intentions of this Bill. But the hon. Gentleman opened his statement by mentioning the fact that only 600 persons have been dealt with under Section I of the Act of 1898—that is, as persons who as inebriates commit a crime; further, that only 3,500 persons have been dealt with under Section 2 of that Act in the category of those who have within a short period committed repeated crimes. He went on to say very truly that there had been something like two million convictions every year by the Courts of Law—
In twelve years.
I beg pardon. In the course of twelve years, the punishment imposed upon these persons being that they were either fined or sentenced to imprisonment, incarceration necessarily resulting in most cases. The hon. Gentleman went on to say very truly that there was insufficient accommodation for such inebriates in existing homes and reformatories at the present time. There he touches upon that particular feature of the Bill to which I, for one, shall direct some considerable criticism on behalf of the local authorities. I may perhaps say that the definition of an inebriate contained in Clause 49 will in my opinion be of very great assistance in interpreting this, and the Acts which it is intended to codify, as the local authorities and others have found existing definitions impose serious ^embarrassment upon them in carrying out the existing law. The Clause to which I wish to draw the attention of the House in particular is Clause 34, which is to this effect:—
(1) Where a person is ordered to be sent to a certified inebriate reformatory it shall be the duty of the council—"
It shall be "the duty" of the Council: it is mandatory.
"of the county or county borough in which he resides (to be specified in the order) to provide for his reception and maintenances in an inebriate reformatory."
Clause 32, to which the hon. Gentleman has referred is to the effect that—
"The Treasury 'may' contribute—"
It is permissive.
"out of money provided by Parliament such sums and on such conditions as the Secretary for State recommends towards the expenses of persons committed to certified inebriate reformatories."
That is to say, that the local authorities have both to provide the institution and provide a large proportion of the cost of their maintenance—which, by the way, is not defined in the Bill, or in the hon. Gentleman's statement—but that the Treasury will only contribute a proportion of the maintenance cost, and will contribute nothing whatever towards the more serious cost—that is, the capital expenditure necessitated by the provision of the reformatories. My hon. Friend the Member for the City says, somewhat caustically, that you must pay for these things if you want them. May I point out to him that the pressure in this, as in other cases, is not to be by the local authorities, but is in future to be by a Government Department, as is specifically stated in this Bill. I, for one, object very strongly on principle to this continuing process of pressure being put by a Government Department, which results in a serious increase of the ratepayers burdens, imposed on those whose interests the county councils and borough councils are intended to protect.
How is this accommodation to be provided? At the present time I think there are—I speak subject to correction—less than a dozen institutions of this 'character in the country; the most important is the excellent inebriate reformatory at Brentry, near Bristol. That is supported at the present time by twenty-five out of the various local authorities. It is perfectly clear that when this Bill becomes operative as an Act of Parliament the local authorities will have to find vastly increased accommodation in addition to that which is to be found in the country at the present time. Whereas hitherto dependence has been placed for the limited number of persons who have been there dealt with, upon private institutions which have been licensed by the local authorities own licence (which licence in future is to be given, as I understand the Bill, by the Secretary of State), the local authorities will be compelled under Clause 34 in future to provide these institutions themselves at the expense of the ratepayers. That alone will make, as in other similar matters, the local authorities very reluctant to carry out efficiently the provisions of such an Act as this. At the present time we have two parallel cases in which the local authority have had to bear charges of a similar character in time past which are a good example of the tendency of modern legislation and administration in the direction of reducing local burdens of this character.
First of all, there is the maintenance of pauper lunatics in asylums. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman when he indicated that this problem was a part of the serious and difficult problem of the control of the feeble-minded which the House is about to deal with later in a very much larger measure. As regards the charge for pauper lunatics, as the hon. Gentleman is possibly aware, it is the one charge above all others which the local authorities say ought to be a public charge and met entirely out of public funds. No less an authority than Lord St. Aldwyn, speaking both as Chancellor of the Exchequer and since he has been a Member of the other House, has repeatedly drawn attention to the fact that the one charge or rather the portion of it—and it is only a portion—that the local authorities have to bear to-day that is convincingly and indisputably a national charge, is that in connection with pauper lunatic maintenance. There is a much stronger case, and that is of persons sent to prison by Quarter Sessions. In days gone by their maintenance was entirely a local charge. It is now entirely a charge upon the Exchequer I think I am right in saying where compulsory detention is prescribed by Statute, and where the maintenance of any service or institution is a result of the process of compulsory detention, there one is justified in asking that, not the local authority, but the State, shall bear the charge thereby involved.
7.0 P. M.
I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he can give the House any sort of indication, first of all as to the extra amount of accommodation which will be required for this purpose, and, secondly, as to the prospective capital charge which will be thrown upon the local authorities under the provisions of Clause 34? Furthermore, I should like to ask him whether he can state a little more definitely what is the proportion which, under Clause 32, the Treasury is prepared to contribute towards maintenance I should like to refer to two paragraphs in the Report of the Departmental Committee of 1908. Paragraph 109 refers back to the Report of another Departmental Committee. It refers back to the Report of the Departmental Committee of 1898, to which I made reference just now. That committee was appointed to frame Regulations for Reformatories and advise the Secretary of State as to what amount should be contributed by the Government towards the cost of maintenance of the inebriates committed to these institutions, and it reported, among other things, to the following effect:— mutatis in mutandis, I think the House will agree that the county councils will have to bear very heavy expenses in the establishment of a large number of these inebriate reformatories, which do not at present exist. As regards the Report of the last Departmental Committee of 1908, it refers to the former Report, which I have read; and then it says:—
I beg to move, as an Amendment, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
The hon. Gentleman has told us that in his opinion most of those in this House are in favour of the Bill, with the exception of myself. I think he was going rather beyond the realms of truth in saying that I am alone in my opinion. I think that one or two Friends will agree with me. I am glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer is present, because this measure really illustrates some of the remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman a few days ago. The hon. Member who has just spoken is in favour of this Bill, but he does not want to pay for it. That is the last thing he wants to do. He pointed out the advantages of the Bill only in a very small degree, but he wants to make it quite certain that in his particular locality the ratepayer will not have to pay and the taxpayer will be called upon to pay. I do not see much difference between the ratepayer and the taxpayer. In my locality we are not habitual inebriates, and if the ratepayer is the payer, we will not have to pay very much, because there will not be many inebriates. But in other localities where the number of inebriates is large they are full of anxiety with regard to the pecuniary source from which the money will come for that great number of inebriates.
We are a most sober community.
I should have to pay as a taxpayer because he cannot keep his particular locality sober. I say the ratepayers ought to pay. This is one of the farcical measures which are so often brought forward by hon. Gentlemen opposite. It is true the first part, consisting of four Clauses, is not compulsory. There are fifty-two Clauses in the Bill, four are voluntary and the remaining forty-eight are more or less concerned with compulsion. I think the hon. Gentleman who lucidly explained the Bill rather glossed over the compulsory Clauses. He said I think we must have these because up to the present the voluntary system has failed. I have not had much time to study the Bill, but I find it makes reference to other Acts of Parliament. I have here the four Acts of Parliament which are going to be repealed, and I have read them as carefully as I can. So far as I can find there is not a word of compulsion in these four Acts, and that is what my hon. Friend who has just spoken rather forgets when he suggests that it is merely codification in a moderate way. If it was really an attempt to codify the different Acts already in existence I should not have had much to say, but it goes far beyond that because I was; not able to find any compulsion in these Acts, and I think if there had been the hon. Gentleman would have alluded to it. There may possibly be some shadow of compulsion, but I have not been able to find it.
I see the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. C. H. Roberts) opposite. No doubt he thinks it is an excellent Bill, though it goes rather beyond his range. The definition includes morphia, chloral, and all that sort of thing; but, leaving that to one side, may I ask how many cures have been effected under the voluntary system? The hon. Member told us that there had been 600 cases during the last twelve years. Does anybody, including my hon. Friend, deny that if a man goes to a retreat with 3, real desire to be cured himself he is much more likely to be cured than if the hon. Gentleman were to put him into a retreat against his will. How many cases have been cured in that 600 during the last twelve years? In my belief there cannot have been many. If there had been many the various Acts at present in existence would have been taken advantage of to a greater extent. The fact is that what we want to do is to set an example to the people in respect to spirituous liquors which they will follow, and I hope hon. Members below the Gangway will not deny the fact that the upper classes in this country have during the last twenty years become a much more sober class than they were, and not by being put forcibly into a retreat, but because it is not the proper thing to do to get drunk indiscriminately as our grandfathers used to do. That is the proper way to deal with the question, and not by hauling off men and forcibly confining them in retreats. But that is not a way of dealing with people which is in the Bill or which would please hon Gentlemen opposite. They must have a law, and it must be a compulsory law. This particular Bill commits certain offences, as I should call them, which are very disagreeable to me. It is going to cost a considerable amount of money, of which the local authorities will have to pay something. Then inspectors will have to be appointed; that is a natural corollary of all these Bills. The State will also have to provide a certain amount of money. Besides all this, it puts power into the hands of the people which it has never put into their hands before. As the hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill told us, for the first time compulsion is going to be introduced. But we are not given any clear explanation of what sort of compulsion it is which is to be introduced. The voluntary part says that there are to be guardians. It will not be an easy thing to constitute yourself a guardian of a person who takes spirituous liquor in excess. Where are you going to get all these guardians from? An inebriate may enter into an agreement to abstain from intoxicants or submit himself to the guardianship of a guardian. We have no explanation as to where these heaven-sent guardians are to come from, or whether they are to be paid or not. All that this is called, and all that appears on the face of it, is that it shall be a voluntary undertaking, but it really goes further than that. Every inebriate has to make an undertaking or a submission, and his application has to be made to the justices, and it has to be signed in his presence. Once he has done this, his guardian has enormous powers of control over him. If he does not do as his guardian tells him, or if he runs away, the guardian can send for a policeman and have him arrested without a warrant, and he can commit him to one of these retreats. Those are very large powers to place in the hands of any guardian. When you come to Clause 5 it is a very different thing. I hope those hon. Members who have not read the Bill will do so. The hon. and learned Member opposite said he was speaking for those Members of the House who had read the Bill, but I do not think there are five hon. Members who have read it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Well, at any rate, there are very few, and I hope those who have read it will pause before they commit themselves by voting for it. Clause 5 provides that:—
"Any relative or friend of an alleged inebriate may make a private application by petition to a judicial authority for an order appointing a guardian or committing him to a retreat."
That means that I could go to a judicial authority and say, "I am a friend of the hon. Member for Lincoln." I make the application privately, and I might say that, in my opinion, the hon. Member comes under Clause 49. That being so, the hon. Member for Lincoln might be confined for two years, locked up in one of these retreats. If he got out, he would be liable to be arrested by any servant of the retreat, who is given the power of a constable, and he might be put back again into that retreat. All I need do is to declare that I consider the hon. Member to be an alleged inebriate, and I refer to Clause 49 for a definition of what an alleged inebriate is.
The hon. Member cannot make the application unless he is a near relative.
Clause 5 says:—
"Any relative or friend of an alleged inebriate, and where a voluntary guardian of an inebriate finds the powers exercisable by him as such insufficient to enable him to exercise proper control over the inebriate, such guardian may make a private application by petition to a judicial authority for an order appointing a guardian or committing him to a retreat."
Where does the hon. Member say that I misrepresent him?
If my hon. Friend will look at the Act, he will see that Clause 5 further states:—
"Provided that if the petition is not presented by a relative of the alleged inebriate or by a voluntary guardian, it shall contain a statement of the reasons why the petition is not presented by a relative, and of the connection of the petitioner with the alleged inebriate, and the circumstances under which he presents the petition."
That is quite true, but it is easily got over, because in the case I gave I should be making the objection, and I might say that the relatives of the hon. Member for Lincoln had not done their duty. I might show they are kind-hearted, tender people, and they do not want to put their relative in an unpleasant position. Therefore, the safeguard is perfectly elusive. Now what is the definition of an inebriate? The interpretation Clause says:—
"The expression 'inebriate' means a person who habitually takes or uses any intoxicants."
Now a great many people take and use "intoxicants.
"And while under the influence of such intoxicants, or in consequence of the effects thereof, is at times— I think there are a great many people incapable of managing their own affairs. If we find someone who has made a foolish speculation or has not managed his affairs properly, and we can prove that he has been in the habit of taking intoxicants, that man will come under this Bill, and he will be liable to be placed in one of these retreats. May I also point out that the expression "intoxicant" includes any intoxicating liquor and any sedative, narcotic, or stimulant drug or preparation. That is a very large order. I notice that even the Under-Secretary to the Home Office was a little staggered when I read out those words. There are a lot of people who take narcotics and sedatives and stimulant drugs or preparations. The hon. Member did not tell us what he meant by stimulant drugs or preparations. A person who takes a sedative and becomes a source of danger to himself may be put by a friend or a relative into one of these retreats, and relatives are not always moved by the best motives, because very often the people put away might be those from whom they have expectations or something of that sort. I think the House ought to pause seriously before it passes a Clause of this kind. I see the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) in his place, and I feel sure that his love of liberty will prevent him from approving of a measure of this kind.
I will now deal with the compulsory part which confers an enormous power, on relatives and friends. I do not say that the old habit of putting those you want to get rid of in asylums or giving them a dose of poison goes on nowadays, but I do not think that human nature has so changed that you ought to give power to people to confine people in retreats, even if there is a possibility by so doing of preventing them ever getting drunk again in the future. There are several other Clauses which to my mind are rather obnoxious. Clause 7, for instance, makes provision for two years' detention, which is a very long period. Clause 7 provides:—
"An order committing an inebriate to a retreat shall authorise the conveyance of the inebriate to and his reception in a retreat mentioned in the order at any time within fourteen days from the date of the order, and his detention in that retreat for such period, not exceeding two years, as may be specified in the order, and he shall be liable to be detained in the retreat accordingly."
That seems to me to be an extremely long time to detain a person in a retreat. Clause 9 provides:—
"If any person is aggrieved by any order or judicial authority committing him to a retreat, he may appeal to the visitors of the retreat to which he is committed."
Apparently these visitors are people in the habit of visiting lunatic asylums, and I do not think that is a bad provision, because I presume they will be responsible people. Now I come to the powers given to the local authorities under Clause 16 which provides:—
"If before the expiration of the period of detention in a retreat a patient escapes from the retreat or from the person in whose charge he has been placed under licence, or whilst absent from the retreat without licence, or if he whilst absent from the retreat, whether with or without licence, takes or uses any intoxicant, he may be apprehended without warrant by any constable or by the licensee of the retreat or any person authorised by him in writing, and brought back to the retreat."
I know the hon. Gentleman said that that provision is contained in some of the Acts which have already been passed, and that is quite true, but a bad precedent ought not to be followed, and I think the powers given to constables under that Clause are much to great, and a Consolidation Bill should omit that Clause instead of repeating it. Clause 24, to a certain extent, is in a previous Act:—
"(1) Where a person is convicted on indictment of any offence punishable with penal servitude or imprisonment, and the Court is satisfied from the evidence that the offence was committed under the influence of drink or that drunkenness was a contributing cause of the offence, and the offender admits that he is or is found by the jury to be an inebriate within the meaning of this Act, the Court may, in addition to or in substitution for any other sentence, either order that he be discharged and remain on probation for a period of twelve months, or that he be detained for such term as may be specified in the order in an inebriate reformatory the managers of which are willing to receive him."
Of course, everybody who is going to get three years' penal servitude will say he was an inebriate under the terms of this Act when he committed the offence, and then, I suppose, he will not be sent to prison. He may get off altogether, and even if he is sent to a reformatory, I presume it will not be so uncomfortable as a prison. Therefore, this is a direct incitement to prisoners to give false evidence in order to escape punishment for their crime. It is quite true there is something of this sort in another Act, but there the jury have got to be satisfied the prisoner is an habitual drunkard. He has to be convicted three or four times of drunkenness, but here the definition is merely the definition in the Act.
The hon. Baronet will find that the word "habitual" is used in the Definition Clause.
The Clause is very vague, but, supposing it is so, it is a Committee point upon which one need not dwell at the present moment. Clause 28 says the State is to provide the money. I am very sorry to see it. I do not know where we are going to end if all this expenditure is to be undertaken by the State in order to keep various people from going wrong. Clause 47 says that where the local authority borrows money for the purposes of this Act it shall not be considered part of the debt of the local authority. That seems to be an extremely bad provision. It has been in several other Bills lately, and it will tend to encourage local authorities in extravagance, to which they are too much devoted already. I hope the Home Secretary is not very keen on the compulsory Clauses of this Bill. The only advantage of this Bill is that it will hasten the fall of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite if my hon. Friends here will only keep quiet and not support it very much, because there are many people who will not like it. Clause 41 says that Regulations made under this Act shall not come into operation until they have laid four weeks on the Table of each House of Parliament. Those lines are no good at all; they are wasted printing. If they had gone on and said that in the event of a petition being presented by either House, then these Regulations should not come into force, there would be some reason in putting them in, but now they mean nothing. It is one of those things which are, I suppose, put in to delude Members or the outside public into the belief that there are certain safeguards and protections. The Regulations may lay on the Table, but there is no opportunity of discussing them, and the fact that they lay on the Table is of no use whatever. They might just as well lay on the table on the right hon. Gentleman's library in his private house.
I would earnestly appeal to the House, if they intend to pass the measure, to put pressure on the Government to withdraw some of the compulsory Clauses. If you once start the principle that if a man does something which is no doubt bad for himself he is to be taken and locked up on the evidence of a relative or a friend, confined in what is after all an asylum, and subjected to be arrested without a warrant if he leaves the place for an hour, where are you going to stop? Supposing someone is in a retreat, and he wants to go outside and take a little walk, he cannot do so without running the risk of being arrested and being charged with escaping from a retreat. I thought we were a freedom-loving people. It seems to me we are going back to the old days when we appointed a certain number of nurses to look after us and see we did not wet our feet or stand in the road, or something of that sort. Surely Englishmen can look after themselves without all this maternal legislation. It is good motives run mad. The hon. Member for Lincoln has got all this on his brain. Let me advise him to think of more important things, and by his example and precept induce people to be more sober. I do not deny there is a great deal of evil and harm resulting from drunkenness. No one dislikes it more and no one has a greater contempt for an habitual drunkard than I have, but, after all, he is only injuring himself. What business is it of mine? Why should I set myself up as a superior being and say to him, "You are drunk, and are often drunk. You go into a retreat." I think the whole fibre of the people is departing from them under this horrible shadow of democracy. You are always interfering with other people's business, and always trying to lay down for somebody else what you think to be right. I dare say we are all much better now, but during the twenty years I have been in this House I have occasionally seen an hon. Member suffering under the influence of drink. Are you going to lock him up? I think it would be impossible.
Amendment not seconded.
I think everyone who is acquainted with this problem must feel indebted to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for having brought in this Bill. Everybody who knows the problem is aware how overdue the reform has been, how much it has been asked for, and we shall all be extremely grateful to the Government for having at last made it possible. We ought also to be grateful to my hon. Friend for his speech. This is a long Bill, it is a Consolidation Bill of five Acts of Parliament, and so on, and I think a good many hon. Members and perhaps the country outside have not quite appreciated how much of value is contained in the Bill. Perhaps the speech of my hon. Friend in explanation of its provisions will enable the country to see that at last something is really going to be done. The hon. Baronet, who used me, I think, as a thinking-post during the large part of his speech, dwelt, of course, as we all should expect him, upon his well-known devotion to personal liberty. I cannot help thinking there was a good deal of sacrifice of common sense to abstract theory in his views. After all, when you are dealing with this particular class of the population there is not much liberty left. It may he a small class, though it runs into rather alarming figures, but when you have got individuals who are hopelessly addicted to alcohol, really an interference with their personal liberty on behalf of the welfare of their families and the community at large is not a thing which need frighten anyone. I think the inspector of the Inebriates Acts puts the figure at about two per 1,000 for whom the Inebriates Acts are intended, and that on a population of 45,000,000 runs into rather appalling figures.
If you take the number of those who have been convicted between one and five times and between five and fifty times, you will find they run into figures which certainly suggest a great deal more ought to be done than is done at the present time, and, so far as the non-criminal inebriates are concerned, this measure does meet two real needs. You want, in the first place, to have some means of dealing with the difficulty of obtaining the consent of the inebriate to treatment before it is too late and before he or she is reduced by poverty or degradation to a state in which it becomes superfluous. That is done in a way which I think is perfectly safeguarded. The second real need is the absence of accommodation for poor inebriates. The inebriate treatment at the present time is somewhat of a luxury of the rich. Anyone who has practical experience either of the Black List under the Act of 1902, or of getting an inebriate to submit to treatment knows it is impracticable until too late a stage. The hon. Baronet asked in how many cases there are cures. It is quite true under the present Acts we get a very small percentage of cures, but the real reason of that is, you take the thing too late. You have to prove three convictions, and you have to get the assent of the person to treatment, and by the time you have got a person in that stage the thing has gone too far, and the task of reformation becomes very great. In a similar way where you have to deal with a non-criminal inebriate, you cannot get the assent in the earlier stage, when, as a matter of fact, you could stop his downward course. That is the real reason. It is quite true magistrates are often reluctant to send persons to inebriate reformatories because they say there are not sufficient cures. The real answer is the system is so cumbrous and so difficult to work that you only send people when it is practically too late. You, therefore, want an easier system in order to get them at an earlier stage.
The hon. Baronet suggested that it would be extremely easy to hand over a person improperly to these homes. I think he stated he had not read the Bill until he came into the House; perhaps if he had made a study of its provisions he would have found that there are sufficient safeguards in that direction, and that anyone who handed over a person who was not an inebriate would run serious risks. In the first place, you have to get the medical declaration and you have to prove the case to the judicial authority. Quite apart from the provisions in reference to the interposition of the statutory pledge and the introduction of the system of probation, before you finally commit a man to an inebriate home, you must make application to the judicial authority. I think that part of the Bill is very well worked out. The statutory use of the pledge is not new. There are magistrates who have used it in a considerable number of cases, and the system of putting inebriates under probation has worked well both in this country and in Massachusetts —the home of the probationary system. Then comes the question of expense, on which the hon. Member for Wiltshire spoke. I think he, in his study of the Bill, has entirely overlooked Clause 28, under which the Secretary of State takes power to continue any existing or to establish any new inebriate reformatories, or to acquire land upon which to erect such buildings. The hon. Member treated the contribution as if it were a contribution merely towards the expenses of keeping up such institutions.
I do not pretend exactly to understand the relations between the local authorities and the State in reference to the finances of this Bill; but I think he is quite right when he says that the duty of providing accommodation for inebriates should rest on the local authority. Unless you have that you will have friction between the authorities administering the Act; you can never get an Act properly in working order unless the obligation lies there. I certainly think that point might be very well cleared up, and, perhaps, the Under-Secretary for the Home Office will, in his reply, deal with relations between the State and the local authority. It is quite true that this Act will cause expense. I trust that in view of Clause 28 the Treasury does mean seriously to make Grants towards increasing the accommodation that will be required. The hon. Baronet said that if we wanted these Acts, we must pay for them. In a rather wider sense than that in which he used the words, I think that is true. After all, and this is the only comment I shall make on the Bill itself, it is only ambulance work. At the present time the licensing system in this country works out in certain cases in distressing results with which we are familiar. We are told about there being two million cases before the courts in the last twelve years, but I must say that the efforts which the Government has made to deal with the real causes of this distressing state of affairs have been foiled and paralysed by the efforts of hon. Members opposite. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh."] If the remedial measures proposed by the Government had been passed into law I honestly believe they would largely have put a stop to the fountains from which these evils of demoralisation have been spread over the land. We are mopping up the wreckage, but it would be far better to stop the wreck before it took place. If you insist on having your present licensing system in its present state, you must pay for it. That is what we were told by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London.
I was listening to the remarks of my hon. Friend, and I am sure that he said nothing of the kind.
Of course, I accept the hon. Member's statement; but I think I said that I was using the hon. Baronet's words in a somewhat wider sense. I was going to say that this is the inevitable result, and when you get a state of things such as we have in this country, we ought not to argue as to the expense which will fall upon localities. We are told that there have been two million cases of drunkenness. That must mean expense to the ratepayers in connection with police, pauperism, crime, and so on. If we strike at it by this Bill we may reduce the expense which falls on the local authorities and the State. We may stop some of it, and I think the action had better be in the nature of remedying rather than of tolerating these evils. As we know, our present futile system is a source of additional expense both in rates and taxes. Therefore it is no real objection to this Bill to say that it is going to cause expense to local authorities. It may very likely reduce the expense which is being incurred at the present time, but, even if it does cause expense, I assert that the present system is so futile and so absurd and has been so condemned by everyone with practical experience that we are justified in supporting this Bill.
I propose to say a very few words, not by way of answer to the hon. Member who has just spoken nor by way of criticism of the Bill, because to a large extent I am satisfied that the principles on which the Bill proceeds are sound, and it would, therefore, be advisable to give a Second Reading in order that such difficulties as it embodies may be dealt with in Committee. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London raised a good many objections to it. With some of his criticisms I do not agree; others, I think, are well founded. If the Bill were a new Bill, if this were entirely fresh legislation, I think I might have some suspicions as to the scheme on which it is based —a more sound suspicion than one can have when he really realises that it is largely a Consolidation Bill. As I understand, it follows the principles of the Lunacy Acts, and, therefore, my hon. Friend need not be afraid of any relative or friend making application under this Act. The system which at present obtains under the Lunacy Acts will obtain under this.
I desire to ask why the method which is set out in the Bill has been adopted. In the first place, if this Bill is to be really effective, are the provisions such as can be worked? I want to ask the Under-Secretary the same question as was put to him by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, and that is, who are going to be these judicial guardians? If you are going to have proper safeguards in the Bill it is desirable to know who are to have the powers of working Section (6). The House is not at the present time possessed of sufficient information upon this very important point. It is quite clear you must have some really serious provision for the purpose of providing judicial guardians. Although I may have overlooked it, I certainly do not see in the Bill any provision for appointing such judicial guardians. Another point I want to ask the Under-Secretary about is whether he will explain why under Clause 9 of the Bill an appeal to the visitors of the retreat is provided for. It is of primary importance that there should be an appeal, and I am very glad that a provision has been inserted in the Bill for one, but when it is realised that the judicial authority who is to exercise the important power of making an order for the custody of an inebriate is the judge of the County Court, or a police or stipendiary magistrate, or a specially appointed justice, it does not seem right that the appeal from his decision should be to the visitors of the retreat. At the present moment, under the Lunacy Act, where an urgency order has been made or confirmed by the magistrate, there is an appeal, but it is an appeal to a properly constituted judicial authority. It think it would be better if the appeal were different in this case. This is a criticism which I hope the hon. Member will answer. I have no doubt he will be able to give us some reasons for drawing the Clause in this way, but, at any rate, it is one of the points which I think should be dealt with in Committee.
8.0 P. M.
The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London voiced a great many fears with regard to this Act being too drastic. They may be well founded, but it is a matter of great importance that a Bill of this character should have real safeguards. The criticism offered upon the Bill may be made by persons who are not fully cognisant of the working of the Act, but if you want to make the Bill a success you had better allay their doubts by showing them that your safeguards are real and conclusive. I turn now to the point as to the working of the Act. It must be confessed, if you are going to make the Act a success, you must make serious financial provision for these inebriate homes. That depends upon whether, under Clause 11, the county councils establish retreats, and that also depends upon whether the county councils receive a sufficient sum of money from the Treasury under Clause 32. It is impossible to send people to retreats under any order, compulsory or otherwise, unless you have retreats to which you can send them. The persons who have to provide the retreats are primarily the county councils or any group of county councils. The first question they will ask is: "Have we to provide it out of the rates?" It will be immediately pointed out to them that there is a provision in Clause 32 for the Treasury making contributions out of the money provided by Parliament. Although it is very important that the Treasury should be able to contribute, in one sense it will stultify the energies of the county councils, because the county councillors will say, "Why should we provide all the money? We will not undertake to provide retreats, unless and until we have seen whether we can get as much money as possible out of the Treasury under Clause 32." The fact that the Treasury is empowered to contribute will in one sense act as a deterrent to the county councils taking the initiative themselves; it takes away in part the responsibility which will lie upon them. The Treasury and the county councils will be waiting on one another, and therefore you will probably not get the same energy displayed by the county councils, because they will be asking the Treasury to help them, while the Treasury, on the other hand, will say that they are not going to provide a large sum of money, because the county councils ought to provide it themselves. I think it will be difficult to work Clauses 11 and 32 together. The point has already been raised at the London County Council. Their Finance Committee has decided this: The very fact that a group of country councils can provide the money will cause a great deal of delay, and possibly prevent the county councils acting. Although it may be very wise to provide that the county councils in the country may join together and establish joint retreats, the very fact that you give a group of county councils such a power may prevent them from acting with sufficient expedition. If this Bill is to be effective it will be necessary to have some provision included in it which will enable the Local Government Board, or the Home Office, to take steps to secure that these provisions are really carried out. These are the criticisms I desire to offer on the Bill as drawn. I do not desire to offer it any opposition. My criticisms are only in the nature of questions, which I hope may be answered, and, if they are not, I hope they will be taken into consideration in Committee, in order that some further safeguards may be given, and further facilities provided for the persons who have to work the Bill, so that we may have a really effective and workable measure.
My only cause for surprise in connection with this Bill is that it has not been introduced before. Part H. certainly covers as urgent a field for legislation as exists. I gather from the Bill that it will apply to the case of the habitual drunkard at the ordinary Police Court. That is far the most hopeless class of cases with which society is called upon to deal. We have heard a good deal about safeguards and so forth. There is no particular need for safeguards in the case of most of that class of persons. There is no difficulty in recognising one of the habitually drunk, because the most hopeless of all duties upon the bench is to continue, month after month, in sentencing the same man or woman to the cells, with no good result whatever. It is absolutely hopeless, and to my mind it is extraordinary that in this country we should never have done anything to bring an end to this farce before. It is probably the attitude of mind which concentrates itself upon the exceptional case, or upon well-to-do inebriates, that has failed to grasp the need for legislation of this character. What is really wanted for the greater portion of inebriates is that there should be a regular labour colony to which the great percentage of these people might be relegated for a longer or shorter period. There is one point the Government should consider, that is with regard to the cost. I agree with what my hon. Friend for Lincoln (Mr. Charles Roberts) has said. It may be cheaper to provide accommodation in existing homes than elsewhere. I think there would be a great deal of saving to the local authorities if that provision is made. It occurs to me that magistrates might be reluctant to give orders for the detention of these persons in a retreat if the locality in which they are taken up has to bear the whole cost of the retreat. There are comparatively small towns along highways, frequented by this class of person, on whom the burden would fall very heavily if they had to meet the whole cost of providing the retreat. The great movement of the vagrant classes from large centres of population is well known. They are largely taken into custody at some of the smaller burghs through which they pass. That point requires careful consideration, and some wider area will have to be taxed for the support of an inebriate retreat than the area of one of these smaller localities. I am very much obliged to the Government for having extended the Bill to Scotland.
In rising to give my hearty support to the Bill, I should like to say one thing in regard to the question of finance. I do not altogether associate myself with the criticisms that have been passed regarding it, either by hon. Members on this side of the House or by the hon. Member for Leith Burghs. I should like, as a temperance worker, to leave the question of finance out of consideration. The question of finance between the central Treasury and the local authority should not be allowed to interfere in this matter. Sooner or later the whole question of the liability of the State for these measures of social reform, and the constant attempts that are being made by county councils, local authorities, and county council associations, to prevent these burdens being thrown upon them, will have to be settled definitely, either by a Royal Commission or by Parliament. I venture to hope that those who are interested on behalf of the county councils association and the local authority will not allow that very debatable and difficult question to come across this measure, which almost the entire House fully supports, and thereby delay its being passed into law. I would also appeal to the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Charles Roberts) not to drag debatable points into the discussions of this measure. There was no question raised in the Debate of party politics until the hon. Member, at the end of his speech, made an attack upon, the licensing system as being responsible for habitual inebriates. I do not know whether the hon. Member has had any real experience in temperance work, apart from political temperance work. I myself for many years past have done more in temperance work than perhaps I have done in political work, but from a remedial point of view. I say advisedly that the question of habitual inebriates has very little connection, if any, with the licensing system. I have had many inebriates under my notice. I have been connected with inebriate homes for twenty-five years, and my experience of them is that the habitual inebriate, the man or woman who over and over again gets drunk, and intends to get drunk, is not the product of the licensing system, but is largely the product of drinking at home. I welcome the Bill because at last it treats drunkenness from a medical and not a criminal standpoint. With regard to the criminal side of the Bill, I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Leith Burghs that an alteration of the law should be made in order to make it easier for these habitual criminal drunkards to be sent to an inebriate home without going before Quarter Sessions—that is to say, that they may be sent straight from the Police Court to an inebriate home. There is power to-day in the Police Court to send an habitual drunkard who has been convicted four times in the course of twelve months to an inebriate home, but for that purpose he must personally agree—
Is it not three times?
There must be four convictions within the twelve months, and the man, in order to get into an inebriate home, must either consent to be tried summarily or the Police Court has no option but to send him to Quarter Sessions. It is not to the futility of short sentences, in regard to which we are all agreed, but it is to the non-criminal part of the question that I desire to address myself.
And, it being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and leave having been given to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put
Loss of Steamship "Titanic."
I beg to move:
"That this House do now Adjourn, in order to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the necessity of the Board of Trade taking immediate steps to secure that the officers, crew, and passengers of the steamship "Titanic," now on their way to this country, may be available for any official inquiry in. this country which may be held."
I want at the outset to make it clear that this Motion is by no means a Vote of Censure upon the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buxton), but is rather an outcome of what is the general public opinion as to this awful disaster, the like of which has no parallel in ancient or modern history. The heroism both of passengers and crew makes us proud of our race, but while money is pouring in to help those who have suffered—and one is inclined to remark that enough money has not been coined yet to pay for a single human life—the general public are very properly demanding that not a moment shall be lost in endeavouring to find out the cause of this dire disaster. We can neither blame passengers nor crew; we have no right to blame any person until we have heard the evidence. I for one am certainly not going to utter a single word as to the conduct, as to the whole of the company of the ship, except to say how proud we are of the heroism which was displayed. The Board of Trade have power under their 1894 Act to set up a Commission. We feel that a single day's delay is exceedingly dangerous, therefore we ask that the Commission may be set up at once. Secondly, we ask that as soon as it is set up it shall set about its work and see what number of persons, if any, of passengers and crew ought to be called before the tribunal at the proper moment, when that moment arrives. Thirdly, there will be a number of people from whom it will be necessary to get evidence, and who will be far and away too poor to await the convenience of a protracted investigation. It would be useless to send their names round from shipping port to shipping port, and it would be a wicked thing indeed to do it when a man's daily bread depends upon it, but the nation is so keen about it that it would not hesitate for a moment, and so, where it is desirable to have a poor man's evidence, the Government should make some arrangements for the maintenance of that man.
Why are we so anxious? We look perhaps with laudable jealousy, if one may use the word in that connection, at the prompt action of the American Senate. They did not wait to investigate the law as to their capacity or their right to deal with certain people. They at once sent a ship out to intercept, if they possibly could, even the owners of the vessel, together with such people as they desired to have as witnesses. We have heard that there is no law in the land which would enable them to do it, but they did it, and the whole of England applauds them for doing it. They are making a most thorough investigation, and surely we are not to be behind in such a laudable ambition as that to get, to the last ounce, what it is possible to get out of it. Do not let us stand too much on the law, but let us use common sense. We want to be perfectly honest, but if you leave it too late all your sympathy will be wasted and shrivelled up. Now is the moment to do it. I have no doubt as to the honesty of any Commission which our Government may desire to set up. In fact, I have infinite faith in it. Therefore I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will give us an assurance that the Commission shall be at once set up; that such persons as are desirable to be examined shall be subpoenaed according to the law of the land, and that those who are too poor to wait shall be maintained in the meantime.
I beg to second the Motion.
I am perhaps more interested in this from one point of view than my hon. Friend. In all the vessels sailing the seas, there are tens of thousands of men in the engine-rooms on whose behalf I think I have a claim to speak as being a member of the association with which they are connected. We have seen something to-day in the letter to the "Times" from the Noble Lord (Lord Charles Beresford) with regard to the heroism of these men, none of whom, I think, have been saved. In cases of this description it is brought home to the mind of the whole of the people of the civilised world what tremendous risks all people take in such a disaster, and how much worse it is for those who are stationed below and whose business it is to remain there even if the vessel should go down. I quite endorse all that has been said by my hon. Friend. This inquiry should be taken with the least possible delay, or these people who have been on the boat, and who will be the only witnesses whose testimony will be of value, will get squandered in different parts of the world, and, after a lapse of time, one finds that there is rather a tendency towards a concentrated kind of statement on some points instead of getting a full and detailed statement from various points of view, which would be obtainable if those people were got at first hand. It is obvious from the inquiry that has now taken place in the United States that many statements have been made which possibly might not have been arrived at if the inquiry had been put off for three or six months. Therefore I quite agree that the main factor in any inquiry which may take place as the result of this terrible disaster is that there should be no delay whatever, that the matter should be expedited as far as possible, and that the whole of the witnesses should be got hold of before they are squandered in all parts of the world, so that the world may know the whole of the facts accounting for this terrible disaster.
I thank the hon. Member (Mr. Crooks), in the first place, for saying that he was moving for the sake of information, and not as an implied censure on myself. I can assure him that under existing circumstances, representing the Board of Trade, I feel very heavily indeed the weight of responsibility which lies on my shoulders. I wish to thank the House also for the very kind consideration they have been good enough to give me under peculiarly difficult circumstances. I endorse everything which has been said by my two hon. Friends in reference to the courage, the devotion, the single-mindedness, and the great heroism which obviously distinguished the crew and passengers of the "Titanic." We shall have, no doubt, later on to consider how far there may have been some contribution to the disaster. It is quite clear at present, whatever may have been the contribution to the disaster, that those on board, among whom I include perhaps most of all the captain, did their duty like men and like women. We can quite share the anxiety which hon. Members may feel in regard to this matter as to what steps are being taken to set up a Court of Inquiry, to subpoena, as far as possible, witnesses, and to take care that those who are too poor to be kept any time in suspense shall nave an opportunity of giving evidence. Just in the first instance may I say, in regard to this matter — and I think the House will be good enough to give me its indulgence—that this afternoon I was asked a large number of questions, and that I gave a longish answer? Quite obviously an answer of that sort cannot really deal with all those details with which one can deal under present conditions. At that moment also I was not in a position to give a specific answer with reference to the Court. I was not in a position to state the facts with regard to the Court which I will now state, nor was I entirely certain what the constitution of the Court would ultimately be.
When a disaster of this sort takes place the Board of Trade has under Statute four courses open to them. They can appoint a preliminary inquiry by an officer appointed by themselves; they can appoint an inspector to inquire; they can appoint a stipendiary; or, in certain instances, the President of the Board of Trade can request the Lord Chancellor to appoint a Wreck Commissioner. The last course has not been taken for many years, but it appears to me that, under existing circumstances and with this great calamity upon us, it is advisable to constitute—and I am sure the House will agree with me—the strongest possible Court we can under Statute. I thought also that course had the additional advantage that as the appointment of a Wreck Commissioner, so-called, is in the discretion and under the authority of the Lord Chancellor, he would necessarily appoint a high judicial authority who would form an absolutely independent Court. Therefore I communicated with the Lord Chancellor in regard to the matter, and I am glad to say I obtained his assent to such an appointment. I come now to the three questions which my hon. Friend asked me. This afternoon I was not in a position to state to the House definitely whether the Court had been constituted, nor indeed to state with absolute certainty how it should be constituted. At that time the Lord Chancellor had not obtained the consent of the gentlemen whom he proposed to appoint as the Court. I am glad now to be able to announce that Lord Mersey, ex-President of the Admiralty Division of the High Court, has been good enough to undertake the responsible and arduous duty. He will be assisted by assessors, whose names I hope to be able to announce shortly. The Court will thus be at once constituted, in ample time for the duties it will have to undertake, as the first batch of the survivors from the crew of the wreck cannot arrive by the "Lapland" until Monday next. May I just say that with that knowledge before us, I do not admit that there has been any delay whatever, because it takes some time to get assent in such a case. But we knew that we were not working under immediate pressure, and that the constituting of the Court a day or two sooner or later was immaterial, and that it was much more important to get a good Court, because, in any circumstances, their functions would not come into operation before Monday next.
As regards the second point to which obviously the House attaches great importance, and in regard to which it feels considerable anxiety, namely, whether the powers of the Court will be sufficient to secure the attendance of the necessary and material witnesses, I said this afternoon that in my opinion it would have sufficient power to secure that attendance. I am glad to be able to assure the House that since Question Time this afternoon, and since Lord Mersey has been appointed, I have had an opportunity of consulting him, and in his opinion the powers of the Court will be sufficient to secure the attendance of all necessary and material witnesses. If, however, at any time it appears that the powers of the Court are insufficient for its purpose, I should have no hesitation in coming to the House and asking any further powers that may be required. I stated further this afternoon that the powers of the Board of Trade in regard to witnesses were naturally very limited. But after the appointment of the Court they extend a great deal further. I stated this afternoon that on the constitution of the Court, the Board of Trade can apply to the Court for the issue of summonses requiring the attendance of witnesses. In anticipation of the arrival of the "Lapland" on Monday next, which is bringing home about 100 of the survivors of the crew, witness summonses will be applied for and depositions and statements at once taken from them. The same procedure will be gone through on the arrival of other survivors. There is no power to summon or subpoena witnesses abroad.
That brings me to the point with reference to poor witnesses. In any wreck inquiry, and especially in regard to this one, we have power which I assure the House will be freely exercised to maintain sailors and others during the whole of the time they are required as witnesses for this Court. Therefore, I can assure the House there will be no question of poverty or necessity on the part of any witness obliging him to be away if his evidence is material to be brought before the Court. I have been in communication with the White Star Line in regard to the question of witnesses, and at my request they willingly gave me the following undertaking:
I have stated to the House in as few words as I can the position as it now stands. I hope my hon. Friend will feel that his three questions have been fully answered. The Court has been already set up, and not only will the witnesses be subpoenaed, but, as far as possible, the Court itself, the Board of Trade, and the White Star Company guarantee that the evidence of the crew, and as far as we can obtain it, the evidence of the passengers will be ascertained. I hope the House will feel that in this matter we have really lost no time in putting into operation our full statutory powers—we cannot, of course, go beyond our statutory powers—at the earliest possible moment, so that the inquiry into this great disaster may take place without delay and under the most favourable circumstances.
I am sure that we must all feel indebted to the hon. Member for Woolwich (Mr. Crooks) for having given us an opportunity of hearing the statement which has just been made by the right hon. Gentlemam The nomination of Lord Mersey, who, as Mr. Justice Bigham was known better as President of the Admiralty Court, must command the confidence, not only of the country, but of the shipping community throughout the whole world. His long experience, as President, of Admiralty causes, and his undoubted knowledge technically of marine matters, will, I think, give confidence to the result of this inquiry whatever it may be. As the judge in this case is entirely independent of the Board of Trade, I feel certain that the hon. Member for Woolwich may accept this solution, along with the assurance of the Government, as a complete justification for the course which he has taken and the inquiries which he has put. I would just add that if the Government see their way in addition to prosecute this inquiry with the utmost celerity, and at the same time to approach foreign Governments who have the same responsibility with regard to their fleet, that the Board of Trade have with regard to the British Fleet, they will help forward the elucidation of what must be a serious and anxious question for them as well as for the country. If, as the result of this inquiry, which I am not in the least desirous of prejudging, it should be recommended that additional legislation— whether as regards a southern route which is clear of ice, or additional provision of boats, or any other details for the better preservation and safety of human life— should follow, then it is absolutely essential that other Governments should go hand in hand with our Government, because if that were not so, our British shipping would be seriously handicapped and placed at a disadvantage. It would, therefore, be better that the steps for the formation of an international convention to secure the safety of human life of all nationalities, should be taken at a very early stage. I was extremely gratified that the right hon. Gentleman was able at Question Time to state that this matter was having the earnest and immediate consideration of the Government. I rose merely for the purpose af appealing to the hon. Member for Woolwich in this sense. The House has had a statement which I am sure will satisfy the country—thorough, impartial, and independent—as to an immediate inquiry. We do not desire in this House to imitate what we would deplore, a premature and prejudiced inquiry, but I feel that if this Debate be prolonged it will be impossible to avoid the discussion of details which had better be left to a thoroughly competent tribunal to discuss. Therefore I would appeal to my hon. Friend to withdraw his Motion and let this matter rest, as I believe it may be allowed to rest, in the satisfactory condition in which the right hon. Gentleman has brought it.
I desire to associate myself with the hon. Member who has just sat down in the expression of satisfaction which I am sure is felt in all parts of this House at the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. For myself I am sorry that it was found necessary to make this Motion, but I think that private Members may take the consolation to themselves that they have still some power in the House of Commons. This afternoon I asked the President of the Board of Trade if he would take any steps to secure that witnesses would be available for the purposes of the inquiry, and, if possible, communicate with the White Star line. When I asked him the first time I got no reply; it was ignored. I asked him the second time—and it was still ignored. I asked the third time, and the right hon. Gentleman said he did not think it was at all necessary. I can refer the right hon. Gentleman to the report of his speech. I have verified that since this afternoon. Had the right hon. Gentleman done what he should have done the first thing this afternoon he would have made the plain, simple answer that everything was being done or would be done to secure that every witness would be available. However, I am very glad that since this afternoon the opportunity has been provided for a full statement, and I think that the Board of Trade will probably move a little more quickly than otherwise would have been the case as the result of the proceedings to-day. I am speaking for myself alone when I say that I am not prepared to accept the Court of Inquiry suggested by the right hon. Gentleman with the full confidence and satisfaction that is felt by some other Members of this House. I think that if the right hon. Gentleman had appointed a tribunal of inquiry, with two or three business men of the highest standing, and with representatives of the different sections of the crew, it would have given greater satisfaction throughout the country. We all know the great ability and impartiality of Lord Mersey, but I think that this is a responsibility too great for one single judge.
Lord Mersey has the great qualification of having represented the shipping interests of Liverpool for many years in this House, and no doubt he has cognisance of a large, number of seamen in Liverpool, and consequently also special knowledge of the shipping trade. But I am bound to say that, in my opinion, a broader Court of Inquiry would have given greater satisfaction throughout the country. This is not an occasion of anxiety of any kind, and I do not see any sign of it throughout the country. I do not think the Government can say that there has been undue interrogation of them in this House. Everyone feels very strongly about it, and but for the desire not to show undue anxiety and not to embarrass the Government, I can assure him that we should have had a Motion for Adjournment long before this. Therefore, I say that no undue anxiety has been displayed in this House. But what we wish to guard against is this: that this is to be regarded by the Government as an ordinary Board of Trade inquiry, the sort of inquiry probably from which in nine months from to-day, at a time when the House is not in Session, we will probably get a White Paper or a Blue Book in which we will see the result of the inquiry. This is a matter to be dealt with hour by hour and day by day. The fullest opportunity should be given for evidence to be offered before the inquiry. Further, I would like to ask the President of the Board of Trade, or any Member of the Government who may follow, what provision have they contemplated for representation of the different interests at the inquiry? Are the seamen to have the right of having a representative there to ask questions if necessary, or are any passengers or the friends of passengers to have the right of having a representative present? I hope we will have a satisfactory assurance upon those points. I believe that all interests directly concerned should be legally represented, if they so desire, at the inquiry. I myself thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement. He remarked that the Board of Trade have a very large responsibility in this matter. They are the watch-dogs of the public, and it is to the Board of Trade the public look for protection. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to take such steps as will ensure that the inquiry will not be unnecessarily delayed, and that all interests will be adequately represented.
Let me say I am second to none in my appreciation of the expedition with which the right hon. Gentleman has set in force the statutory powers he possesses for the purpose of setting up a tribunal which will inquire into the causes of this terrible disaster. I do not utter a word of discord with regard to the selection of the distinguished ex-judge, who is a high judicial authority, to preside over the Court. But I have been sitting here in amazement for the past half-hour, and wondering whether we are in a dream or whether we are coming to the realities of the situation. However eminent may be the president of the Court, however extensive and free may be his jurisdiction, it is obvious to everyone that he has to inquire into the various causes of the disaster. The inquiry will throw some light probably on such questions as to whether these water-tight compartments are guarantees against sinking. It may throw some light upon the question of discipline upon board in case of wreck, as to how far the principal owner of the vessel should have precedence over a humble emigrant who has paid his fare. It may throw light upon many other matters on which, I venture to say, public feeling runs high. But I rise for this purpose, to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is going to wait for the finding of this Court, which, as the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) says, may be six months or more before he puts into force the powers he possesses to-day, and indeed the exercise of which is demonstrable and unanswerable. The right hon. Gentleman has power to make Regulations as to the number of lifeboats which these liners shall have on board.
I must point out that the Motion for the Adjournment is a limited one dealing with the inquiry and the attendance of witnesses. It does not raise the question to which the hon. Member is now referring, and any Debate upon that point could not be allowed.
With all due respect, the Notice of Motion of the hon. Member for Woolwich was on the account of the unsatisfactory answers given by the President of the Board of Trade to certain questions, one of which was my own. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] I do not wish to quarrel with the Chair, and I will put it in another way, and I will make myself quite in order. I express the hope that the scope of this inquiry will include, in addition to the various matters referred to, the provision of adequate lifeboat accommodation for those great ocean liners. I also express the hope that someone, speaking for the Government, will tell us when was the last revision of the rules of the Board of Trade, and whether or not they have been—
It cannot be done in the form of Debate or questions, and it is outside the Motion brought forward by the hon. Member for Woolwich.
I will conclude by expressing my regret that there seems to be an extraordinary compact between the two Front Benches to prevent adequate discussion of this Motion.
Let me say at once that there is no compact of any kind between the two Front Benches. I came specially to-night to listen to the discussion of this matter, because I felt keenly, as everyone in the country was feeling, how vital and important it is that the matter should be dealt with, and dealt with without delay. I am bound to say it seems to me, taking all the circumstances into consideration as well as I can, that the course the President of the Board of Trade has adopted is as good a one as I can see. I quite agree with the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy that any Court, however constituted, is liable to be criticised. It may be suggested that perhaps some other arrangement should have been made, but, on the whole, the appointment of a judge of the eminence and distinction of Lord Mersey, assisted by assessors who will take into account all the special matters referred to by hon. Members, is, in my judgment, the best Court. They will be able to find out, as far as can be found out, what was the cause and what were the circumstances of this disaster. I quite recognise what was said the other day in the House that there is great danger that during the time of waiting and after the excitement has passed away that we may forget the occasion of it and allow things to slide. I think that ought not to be done; it is far too serious a matter. I think the first practical step is to examine the evidence and find out what was the cause of the disaster.
I am glad there is going to be an inquiry, but I confess I should have been better pleased if it had been entrusted to an independent Committee of this House. That would have satisfied the people. It must be borne in mind that the principal persons who will be on trial would" be the Board of Trade themselves. I only want to ask one question, and it is, whether the inquiry will be held with open doors?
Certainly; yes.
Of course, I know as a rule, and I am sorry to say it, that the doors are shut. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] Yes, as a rule most of these inquiries are held with closed doors.
Those inquiries are always held with open doors.
I am glad to have heard that, and I am glad that my having asked the question will make it clear to the public. What we want is an inquiry in which the public will have confidence that everything is to be gone into in the hope of bringing about a better state of things in future. What I do hope is that we shall never again have the Board of Trade giving its certificate that a boat was properly equipped for so many passengers when it was not equipped for more than one-third. I do not want to run down the Board of Trade or anyone else unnecessarily; I only want to remind them of their duty and what we hope they will do and that is not to be too wise after the event, but to do something to prevent disasters in the future. It is not much good talking after the event, but it is of some use to provide at the outset against disasters. I am sure this well-known judge will be an independent man and a man we can trust. I hope every possible means will be given to him, no matter what the expense, to let the public know what is to be done in the future.
I only rise to answer questions that were put especially by my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel). He directed his observations particularly to two points upon which he required to be satisfied. One was that there would be no undue delay, and the other that any person who desired to be represented at the inquiry should be allowed to be so. With regard to the first point, from what has already taken place to-day, and, indeed, from what the President of the Board of Trade has stated, we are in a position to assure him that there will be no delay, and that the Court will be ready to sit at once, and that it will continue to sit so long as there is evidence to be taken in order that it may arrive at its conclusions. Everybody will appreciate what is desired is that all available evidence should be presented to the Court, and that the Court should deal with it after it has heard it. With regard to the second point it is the practice in those inquiries for the Court to allow all parties to be represented. I am quite sure from the constitution of this Court that the same practice will be followed. Everyone who desires to be represented will be allowed to attend at the inquiry, and also, I should add that even if a person is not represented and not called by the Board of Trade, perhaps because the Board of Trade may not have heard of him, yet any person is entitled voluntarily to give evidence and will be heard if he presents himself so long as he can say anything which will be relevant to or throw any light on the subject matter of the inquiry. The third question has already been answered. It is a matter which I thought was well known to this House; it is that all such inquiries are held in public, and no question can possibly arise of there being closed doors. I hope that the House will be satisfied with the Court which is now constituted, remembering, as we must, that Lord Mersey, together with his great experience at the Bar and as a judge, was chosen to preside over the Admiralty Division of the High Court, the particular tribunal which has the best cognisance of such matters, many of which are highly technical, as will have to be inquired into at this investigation. The House has also become aware that there will be assessors to advise and assist Lord Mersey. They will be very carefully selected, so that the best assistance may be obtained by him. I think the House may rest satisfied that we shall have the best possible Court that can be constituted.
I desire to ask the President of the Board of Trade a question. I ask it because I am not informed on this point, and I assume that there may be others also who are not informed. I do not know whether there will be terms of reference to this Commission or Court provided by Act of Parliament. If it is the case that terms of reference are given by the Government, it will be satisfactory to have some indication of what those terms will be. I say this because if we are to rely upon question and answer across the floor of this House, our experience of the last two or three days is not such as to make us have absolute confidence in that inquisitorial process. I am, therefore, asking this question in order to have the facts clear in my own mind.
May I ask a question about the assessors? No mention has been made either by the President of the Board of Trade or by the Attorney-General or by any Member who has spoken about the question of the assessors. May I ask how many there will be, and especially whether one will represent the engineering interests and engineering experience. I believe it is usual in some cases to have more than two assessors. Possibly we may be informed as to their number and their special qualifications, and what interests they may represent.
9.0 P. M.
The appointment of assessors is now in the hands of the Home Secretary. I am in communication with him, and I hope to announce them very shortly and the interests they represent. As to terms of reference, there are none in the ordinary sense to a Committee or a Commission. The Court is held under the Act of Parliament which constitutes it, and it is intended to inquire into every matter relevant to the wreck of the "Titanic." I think my hon. Friend need have no fear that there will be any limitation of desire on the part of the Court to arrive at conclusions on all relevant matters and inquiries which the public would desire.
Will the President of the Board of Trade include in this inquiry an inquiry into the fact as to whether a telegram regarding the "Titanic" having been taken in tow and on its way to Halifax in any way affected the premiums for insurance?
That is really a question to be decided by the Court. I admit it is, not a matter exactly relevant to the question of the loss of the "Titanic," but it will be within the cognisance of the Court to inquire into it if they think it a fit subject matter of their inquiry.
I understand parties will be represented by counsel at the inquiry?
They can be.
If the crew or members of the crew desire to be represented by counsel, who will pay the costs?
I would like to ask whether, if there are to be no terms of reference, and if the inquiry is to be held solely under the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act, is it not a fact that the Court will be limited just to the question of the loss of this ship? I understand that that is so. I have myself taken some little interest in one or two cases of a similar character, and I think that the Court, unless some kind of special reference is presented to them, is practically bound only to inquire as to the cause of the loss of the ship, whether proper precautions were taken by those that were in charge of it, and whether there was any neglect of duty on their part. I should like to be assured on the point by the right hon. Gentleman, because what I am afraid of is that we shall find the usual verdict returned, relating to the loss, and we shall find that the Court, unless some special reference is made to it, declaring its inability to go beyond what the law specifically lays down as the subject of the inquiry. I am afraid that, after the feeling has died down and this Court has heard evidence perhaps for several months, we shall come to the conclusion that it was not a suitable Court to inquire into the questions we wanted inquired into, and that, as a matter of fact, it was not the proper authority to inquire into the matters in which the House of Commons and the country are more particularly interested. I should like the Attorney-General to state whether the Court, constituted as it is without any reference, is not limited under the terms of the Merchant Shipping Act to the mere questions why the ship was lost, was she navigated properly, was there any dereliction of duty on the part of any officer, and if so, what officer? If it is limited in that way it is not the kind of enquiry that the country is demanding.
I very much doubt whether, if we had to frame terms of reference, we should enlarge the scope of the inquiry. It will be found, as it is usually found in these cases, that, this being an investigation and not a trial, there is very full scope indeed for all questions to be investigated which throw any light upon the events which led up to or followed the disaster.
Including the loss of life?
Certainly.
And the present regulations?
Yes. The question whether any particular form of regulation may be better is another matter, but certainly an investigation will take place, and I have no doubt whatever that the Court will pursue its inquiry into the present regulations, to see how far they were carried out and how far they were effective for their purpose. The Court also have powers to make recommendations to the Board of Trade with regard to further regulations if they think necessary. These inquiries are conducted on the widest possible lines. The House must bear in mind that it is not like a trial. What the Court desires to do is to investigate all the facts which throw any light on the event or which may be of assistance for the future. I do not think there need be any anxiety about that, more particularly when the constitution of the Court is borne in mind. The only other question is in reference to the right of persons to be represented by counsel. I have no doubt whatever that the usual practice will be followed. Classes of persons are represented by counsel. There may be counsel representing the seamen and counsel representing the passengers. It may be that there will be counsel representing one particular class of the crew. All these are questions for the Court. The Court will probably allow to be represented anyone who desires to throw any light on the matter or to put any questions for the purpose of elucidating the subject matter of the inquiry. As to who will pay the costs of counsel, I think that must be settled as it usually is. There is power in the Court to declare at the end of the inquiry who shall pay the costs, but I understood my hon. Friend's question to be as to who would find the money necessary to brief counsel. I do not think there will be any difficulty in regard to that. It is usually found in these matters that the unions are quite capable of looking after their own men, and they will take every opportunity of seeing that they are properly represented. In the end it is open for the Court, if it thinks right, to make an order as to the payment of costs.
The House generally has welcomed the statement of the President of the Board of Trade, and I think the country as a whole will do so to-morrow. I want to express my gratitude to him and to the House generally, for on every side one has received nothing but assistance. I hope that when these advisers are chosen the Labour side will not be forgotten. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
The President of the Board of Trade stated that an opportunity would be given to examine the crew and the passengers. It must be borne in mind that a large number of passengers on this boat are not going to return to this country, and we may never have the benefit of their testimony. In the meantime, another investigation is going on across the water, where undoubtedly they have some advantage over us in the matter of expedition. The right bon. Gentleman stated that this Court of Inquiry would receive affidavits from abroad, because we had no jurisdiction to summon these people before our Court of Inquiry. That is undoubtedly true, but I would ask the Attorney-General: is he going to recognise a departure from all precedent in investigations of this character, where there should be an opportunity to hear everybody examined and cross-examined under oath? Is he going to recognise the introduction of affidavits on which the parties will not have an opportunity to cross-examine? I sincerely hope that a departure of that sort will not be recognised, and that, if necessary, the Government will stand the expense of summoning from abroad any witnesses who will come in order that the investigation may be complete; and that we may not tolerate an investigation in which one section of witnesses will be cross-examined and another will simply put in their affidavits. One remembers the statement of Lord Justice Bowen that the truth may sometimes be found even in an affidavit.
It was not Lord Justice Bowen.
I hope the Attorney-General is right. But whoever said it, it is true. It will be most unprecedented and unreliable if an investigation of this character relies upon affidavits on which the -parties are not cross-examined.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Private Business
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENTS BILL.—[By Order.]
Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Question [ 18th April ], "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to omit from the Bill all words which negative or suspend the provisions of Section 23 of the London County Tramways (Electrical Power) Act, 1900."—[ Mr. Harry Lawson. ]
Question again proposed. Debate resumed.
When this Bill was under consideration last week, there was a great deal said about the unfitness of this House to discuss the details of a measure of the kind, and the representative of the Board of Trade desired to dismiss our consideration of the question by insisting that the Bill should be sent to a Committee upstairs, as they alone had the right, or at any rate, as they alone could adequately deal with it. I want to traverse those two classes of statements. In the first case, I object altogether to London being treated in this matter, or any matter indeed, as if we were dealing with a comparatively unimportant rural town. I cannot help feeling that a good deal of recent legislation that has been proposed for London has been framed with that attitude to London at the back of the minds of the promoters. This House, however, I would hope from its recent action taken on certain proposals concerning London, has shown that it is not really likely to allow London to be neglected, or its unrivalled greatness to be lightly esteemed. We who love our London pride ourselves on the knowledge that in the matter of its population alone it is as great as many European countries.
During the control by the London authorities, or by one London authority, the authority promoting this Bill, around the means of mechanical traction within the county of London, as everybody knows, a very fierce contest has raged. It has raged upon many points. It has raged around the question as to what should be the limits of local government, of parochial or district government, and what should be the over-riding powers, if any, of the central Government. It has gone further. It has raised the question of the wisdom or unwisdom of any or all of these bodies having anything to do with municipal enterprise. The very body which controls our London destinies to-day has been the very strongest opponent of our tramway enterprise. I feel that the suspicion that this House has already manifested towards this proposal—in the matter of the Instruction that it desires to attach to the Bill—is the child begotten of the experience of that dislike of tramway government or control by any local authority whatever. We were told a few days ago that London possessed a splendid system of some 200 miles, but that during the last few years there has been a steady eating into this system by this inferior and wretched system. I take my stand boldly when I say that that system is not good enough for London. I doubt whether it is good enough for any town in the country. I am told that we cannot afford anything better. Can anything indicate more clearly the smallness of the conception of those who put that forward of this Empire city?
You have that system in Stafford.
I wish we had a system in Stafford. I think the Stafford people would be wiser than to put the suggestions forward that are now being put forward. In London there has been an attempt to dodge the best system in the world by the miserable stud system, which was foredoomed to failure by the friends of the hon. Gentleman opposite on the County Council of the time. The Noble Lord opposite, who talks about me coming from Stafford, himself is the Member for Bath. He has twitted me, the Member for Stafford, with interfering in London matters. I was born in London and have lived in London many years. The Noble Lord opposite is a Member for a country district. When he was in socks, I was walking about in those very districts that we are discussing now. What is the system proposed? A system of overhead wires. We have seen it, and we hate it. The hon. Member has told us that it would be necessary in his own district because there is a railway arch somewhere which does not give sufficient space for putting in the conduit system. You have adopted the overhead system from Nor-bury to Streatham and from Brixton to West Norwood, and the plea for that was iii adopting that system, and spoiling one of the very finest suburban roads, was that there was no room to take the conduits. There was a difficulty(at the crown of the arch of the Brighton Railway from an engineering point of view, but with a staff of engineers such as you have at Spring Gardens, surely that might have been overcome. It is said that Stepney is being dealt with here and now in a very unfair fashion. I agree. I have always felt that with these great undertakings the London County Council should have an overriding power, but I would not go about to get it in the mean way this Bill proposes to do. I wondered what was the matter with my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green the other night, and why he adopted the attitude he did. He was bound to admit that his own local authority was against him. Years ago he and I stood on the same platform together. There is another question. That is the finance of the Bill. There are numbers of men in London to-day versed in municipal matters who have challenged the method of accounting for the finances of the tramways as at present adopted, and say that the balances declared are wholly unlike the real ones. Hon. Members tell me from the opposite side of the House, in defence of this Bill, that London cannot afford what we suggest, and that the ratepayer has to be considered. If they are out for the mere saving of money one may suggest to them that they should take some of the public buildings and let them out for advertising hoardings. We can have the argument for economy carried too far. London is one hundred years behind what it ought to be as the greatest city of the Empire. We ought to do all we can to reconstitute and beautify it. We ought not to set out to disfigure it by the erection of this screeching, hissing-monstrosity. Let us do all we can to make it beautiful. No one could defend this kind of thing on the score of beauty. There-was an incident last week in which the hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Fred Hall) was delighted because he had bested the-Postmaster-General in the case of overhead wires, but the worst the Postmaster-General does is to sling a wire from house-to house, whereas the hon. Member brings in a Bill to put across the streets a double and sometimes quadruple line. I do not know whether those who think of beauty in our streets consider the effect of this overhead monstrosity upon the public; I think that men will shudder in passing under the wretched thing. I would earnestly appeal, as an old Londoner, to the people who are responsible for London to look at London from a bigger, loftier, and bolder standpoint, and to throw away all these flimsy, dangerous, miserable contrivances, and to continue to carry out the system which has made the bulk of their trams the admiration of the world. And then, if, in order to free London from these local petty jealousies and to obtain over- riding powers, they come to this House, I shall do my best to give them my full support.
I hope the Committee will recollect that the London County Council runs the trams not to make a profit, but for the convenience of the public, and it is their duty therefore to endeavour to supply the quickest, safest and most economical service they can. I have heard a great deal said against the overhead system, and how ugly it is. The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr, Essex) evidently thought that all the great capitals refused to have them. As a matter of fact, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, all have overhead tramways. [An HON. MEMBER: "Paris?"] They have in several places. They have not considered that the beauty of their city was spoilt by having overhead tramways. It is the same here in England and Scotland, in Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham, and in Ireland, in Belfast, they have all got overhead tramways. And the reason is that they are not disposed to adopt a "penny-wise pound-foolish" policy, but they wish to get the best service for the convenience of the people. If the London County Council were running the trams merely to make money and were guided by the advice of practical men, I should not hesitate to say that they would abandon Burdett Road and Grove Road and pull up the rails and scrap them and transfer any available rolling stock to other districts. It has been shown that these roads do not pay, and it is not likely they will do so. But the council have considered that they were necessary to take men down to the East India Docks and to take the working classes up to Victoria Park, and I personally feel that they are necesary and should not be taken up. But it is reported by practical people that it will cost over £30,000 more to put down the conduit system than to put up the overhead. If it is going to cost that amount and from £1,000 to £l,500 a year more to run— [Hox. Membebs: "No, no; it is the other way."] That is what the report says. The report is that the cost of running will amount to £3,900 per annum on the conduit system and on the overhead system less than £2,000. It is very necessary that the London County Council should consider that. If they spend the larger amount they would find it very difficult to keep down their fares. It has been claimed that we are trying to override the veto of the borough council. I have not heard that the London County Council are asking Parliament to take away that veto. But they feel that in cases where the veto was used against the interests of the people that it was right that they should come before Parliament and show Parliament that it was against the interests of the people. There is nothing to prevent a borough council or the two borough councils which have lodged objections to this Bill from coming forward and stating their objections before the Committee. I hope that Parliament will not hamper the Committee from being able to arrive at a fair view as to which is the right side of these proposals, and that the Committee will then report to the House. The House can then reject it of course, if it thinks fit.
I wish to support the Second Reading of this Bill without the Instruction. I listened to the speeches, and what strikes me is that whether the speakers know London as well as the hon. Member for Westminster or the hon. Member for Stafford; they do not seem to me quite to understand the real facts in connection with this case. For nearly six years the East End has had to do without-electric tramways, because of the opposition of one borough council. I suppose that during that period for at least three or four of the years one of the borough councils concerned was willing that overhead wires should be put up, and in the end even Stepney Borough Council agreed to allow overhead wires upon Coburg Road and Burdett Road. I think the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. Burdett Coutts) would agree that it is the very best part of the Bow Road. I should think that the Member for Mile End would agree that it is the one piece of the Bow Road that is straight and wide, and if a road can be called beautiful I should call beautiful the piece from Grove Road to Bow Bridge. That piece has had overhead wires for some years. And now Grove, Road and Burdett Road are to be denied an effective tramcar service for the same reason after six years that we were denied a tram service down the main road. And the argument apparently is first, that we: want to remove the veto of the borough council by a side wind, and, secondly, that, we want to inflict something ugly upon the East End, and the East End only. What has really happened there is that the borough council has a certain power of veto. The London County Council, who have, to carry out this particular piece of work, cannot provide trams for that locality in consequence of that veto, and they have to come to Parliament. What other way have they got to have the matter settled? We may go on for another ten years in the position we are in, and while these borough councils exercise their power in the manner they do there will be a deadlock. There is only one way, which is for Parliament, through the Committee upstairs, to determine the whole matter. That seems to me to be the only rational thing that can be done under the circumstances. The other question is that the majority on the county council, and I believe it is a majority made up of all sections of the county council, want to inflict on the East End of London very ugly wires which apparently, if they are not put along this road will not be inflicted upon us at all. Hon. Members who talk like that forget that London is much bigger than that which comes under the control of the London County Council. If you just cross the border at Bow Bridge or Canning Town you immediately come upon hundreds of miles of overhead wires through the East End of London. The other Sunday I was speaking in the West of London, and I rode for some miles on cars belonging to another concern, all of which were propelled by the overhead arrangement. At this time of day to talk about introducing this system into London is ridiculous, because we have it all around us, and in this particular spot there is every reason from the point of view of convenience and everything else why you should put up the overhead wires. This line will go not only to Hackney but across the Bow Road, and the cars from Ilford, where a large number of people come from who work at the docks, will be able to ride down the Burdett Road to the docks.
All the councils outside London have overhead traction, and this particular piece is one which can link up with other councils, and, in my opinion, it will make a very efficient means for certain people who work in the docks getting backwards and forwards. I heard the argument of costs gone into very fully. I admit that if it were only a question of costs, and if every other part in and around this district had the conduit system, I should not allow the question of cost to come in, but when I know that from Hackney you have only to go over Mare Street to Lea Bridge Road to find the overhead system; when I know that if the hon. Member for Mile End only goes into his own Division, he will also find the overhead system, when I remember that the Poplar Borough Council, which is intensely interested in getting this small piece of linking-up work done, and are overwhelmingly in favour of conceding this to the county council, the least this House can do is to allow the Committee upstairs to settle it. This line runs right round by the docks, and those of us who were not only born in London but still live in London want means of communication round what is called the Isle of Dogs. I do not suppose many hon. Members go to that part, but it is cut off from London in a way which makes it very difficult to get at.
Some people think the most effective method of getting from one place to another in the Isle of Dogs is to go by steamboat, but there are no steamboats now. We are hoping if we get the overhead system here that we shall be able to get the London County Council to run the line round the Isle of Dogs, and if that is to be done we certainly cannot have the conduit system, as that would be a fatal objection to it. No man, whether he be an engineer or not, would say that we could run conduit tramways over the swing bridges, three of which have to be negotiated round the Isle of Dogs. We hope and believe that this is going eventually to be done, and therefore the putting down of the conduit system is another reason for saying that this would not be practicable. Therefore, speaking not only as one who perhaps was born after the hon. Member for Stafford—I am sorry I libelled him by saying he was much younger—as one born in that part and who still lives there; as one who has considerable business to do at the docks and knows scores of others who have business to do there who know the inconvenience of the present arrangement; as one who is longing to see a proper method of tramway traction carried out there, I hope the House will not put any restriction on this Bill, but allow all these matters to be fought out upstairs.
I have listened with great attention to the remarks made by the hon. Member who has just sat down, but I do not see how his point about a hypothetical tramway round the Isle of of Dogs has got anything to do with the present case, nor has he made it clear to the House what possible objection there could be to have a conduit system of tramways as well as the system that is now proposed. I wish to deal for a moment with a remark that fell from the hon. Member for Stafford, who said London was a hundred years behind the times. The hon. Member did not substantiate that statement. Personally, as one who takes a great interest in London, I am of opinion that London has improved in every respect during the last twenty years. Our means of locomotion in London, whether by tramway, motor 'bus, or underground, is the best of any city in the world. I do not think anybody can deny that. Who can show that our lighting, whether by electric light or gas, is inferior to any other of the great Continental cities. With regard to the paving, anybody who has the pleasure of going from one station to another in Paris over the cobbles will know that our pavement is superior. When we come to the collection of dust and scavenging, I think our daily collection, and most certainly in the central portions of London, will challenge comparison with Paris or any other city in the world. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green said that after all the London County Council, whatever they were in municipal politics, represented the people of London. I again entirely disagree with that proposition. The borough councils of London are elected on exactly the same franchise as the members of the London County Council. And last, but not least, there are the Members who represent London constituencies in the House of Commons, and it has always been considered they have a perfect right to take part in these questions. You cannot shut London up into watertight compartments. I go further, and say this is really the proper place for the discussion of matters of this kind. The point at issue is a very simple one. We have always contended the borough councils have a right to the veto. The present majority on the London County Council have, in my opinion, got round that veto on a side issue. They are trying to inflict on these unfortunate borough councils a system which they dislike. It has been said, and it has been shown, there are some twenty-three miles of the overhead system in London, but that has been introduced with the consent of the particular borough councils. In this case the borough councils concerned have refused their assent, and yet, because it is a change from the horse system, the London County Council wish to introduce the overhead system, although in the opinion of the borough councils concerned it is an obnoxious system. I am opposed to the London County Council inflicting upon these boroughs a system they dislike. I do not think it is a fair way of dealing with the question. I take my principal stand, however, upon the whole question of the veto. The President of the Local Government Board, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Henry Chaplin) tried to do away with Standing Order 22, was a most persistent opponent of getting rid of this right of the veto. He said:—
"If the veto were abolished grave injustice would be done to local communities. They would be put to the endless expense of employing solicitors and counsel, and sending town clerks, surveyors, and engineers to watch the scheme, which, with the right (to veto) they now enjoy, would not be necessary, because by resolution they would say, 'We know best about this; we will not incur the expense, £3,000 or £4,000; we will veto it under the existing Standing Order.'"
I maintain, with all due deference to the London County Council, that is exactly what they are doing in this case. The very objections raised by the President of the Local Government Board apply to this ease. The unfortunate borough councils will have the expense of going upstairs. They are not rich communities, they have not got the proper machinery, and, if they have to get it, it will cost them a great deal of money. The London County Council are trying, absolutely by a side wind, to deprive them of this veto. The question of the veto has been bandied backwards and forwards. Hon. Members opposite have said they are not really in favour of it at all, and they would like to see it abolished, and yet under the existing right of the veto, they are opposed to the Bill. The fault of the whole trouble is with the Government itself. The whole question of London traffic ought to be settled by the Traffic Commision which we have urged upon the Government for years and times out of number to put into operation. It is not merely a local question. We cannot tell where London begins and where it ends. There is a great district bordering on London, Greater London. Surely all these facts ought to be taken into consideration. I would be quite willing, for one, that the London Borough Councils should surrender their right to the veto if and when the Government adopt the recommendation which has been so often urged upon them of having a Traffic Commission for the whole area of London and Greater London. This is, in my opinion, an attempt of the London County Council to get rid of the existing privilege of the borough councils, and for that reason I shall vote for the Instruction.
The hon. Member for South St. Pancras (Captain Jessel) is perfectly consistent in the attitude he has taken up on this question. He, of course, represents those who have always been in favour of the veto of the borough councils over the tramway proposals of the London County Council. I speak as a present member of the London County Council, and I am therefore perhaps a little bit more in touch with the London County Council than some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House who have spoken, and I should like to say this particular proposal was carried in the council without any division at all. It is perfectly true there was an Amendment moved expressing the views of the Progressive party with regard to the veto generally of the borough councils, but that was not pressed to a division, and I think it may be said that the London County Council are generally in favour of this particular proposal. I confess I have been a little surprised to hear some of my hon. Friends who, when they were intimately connected with the county council, were always, in season and out of season, against the veto of the borough councils to uphold this veto when we have convinced our opponents that the borough councils do on some occasions exercise, and have on this occasion in particular exercised, their veto in an unreasonable manner. I hope they will think better of it and not vote in favour of this Instruction. I say perfectly plainly that I welcome this proposal of the London County Council. I recognise that for the first time they have brought it as a clear issue before the House, and have been able to make this House see that the veto of the borough councils has become intolerable and ought to be done away with. I do most sincerely ask my hon. Friends on these benches at any rate to vote against the Instruction.
We are spoken to as though this were the first proposal to introduce the overhead system into the county council area. That is not the case at all. There have been some twenty miles of the overhead system already introduced into London. I should like the House to understand very clearly, if we are, as I hope we are, to carry these tramways into every part of London, and to work routes which do not show a very great profit, that it can only be done by adopting a cheap system of tramway traction. We are told a great deal about the unsightliness of the overhead system. If we could afford it I should like to see the conduit system everywhere; but, after all, there is something to be said for the overhead system. I know a town, second to none in its amenities, the county borough of Bournemouth, which has just abandoned all through the centre of the town the conduit system, and has substituted for it the overhead system. They recognise that, after all, tramways must be run as business concerns. They must be run in order to carry people at cheap fares, and in order to involve no loss upon the ratepayers. I do, therefore, sincerely hope my hon. Friends will stick to their old principle of voting against the veto of the borough councils, and that they will also vote for this proposal of the London County Council, by which alone, as I believe, we shall be able to carry the tramway system into all the districts of London.
As representative of one of the boroughs, in sympathy with the city of Westminster on this matter, I should like to say a word in favour of this Instruction. Twenty-one boroughs have combined with the city of Westminster, representing something like three-quarters of the ratepayers of London; and I think it is a little extraordinary to argue that the universal opinion of London is in favour of doing away with the veto when twenty-one boroughs are asking that it shall be preserved. I think great weight should be attached by the House to the opinions on these borough councils. Stepney will be very badly used if this scheme is forced upon it. While the constituency I represent is so strongly in sympathy with Stepney, the scheme for introducing tramways into Hampstead has been thoroughly unpopular throughout. The borough council there has unanimously protested against it. There have been public meetings representative of all shades of opinion, and they have unanimously carried resolutions in opposition to the scheme. The reason is a very strong one. It is a residential part of London, and it is felt that the introduction of tramways in the way in which the London County Council proposes to introduce them will seriously injure the rateable value of Hampstead. We do not require them. We have excellent facilities for locomotion. We have in the district four great London railways, some of which have several stations. We have also two tube railways. Tramways, therefore, are unnecessary, and why should the London County Council persist in forcing upon us a scheme we do not require? We, therefore, sympathise very strongly with the borough of Stepney.
I should like to say one word about the danger of overhead wires. These overhead wires in London are beginning to show signs of wear and tear, and they are becoming a serious danger. In the course of a thunderstorm I saw a large group of wires, fixed to a chimney, break and sweep across the roadway with such force that I am quite certain if men or horses had been in their path they would have been killed. It is too much to hope that the overhead wires already existing will be removed. We shall have to wait for some appalling accident before that occurs. But there is no reason why we should extend the system. It is on these grounds that I wish to support the Instruction moved by my hon. Friend.
10.0 P.M.
I feel somewhat disinclined to take up the time of the House on a Bill more or less parochial in its character. But there is one very satisfactory feature in the Debate this evening, and that has been the very remarkable display of the unanimity of London in this matter, because we find my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras taking the same keen interest in the particular form of tramways being constructed in Stepney as the hon. Member who represents that borough. Those engaged in the promotion of this Bill have been encouraged by the support received, first from the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley, who probably knows that part of London and its requirements better than any man in this House—with the exception, of course, of the hon. Member for Stepney—and by the support of the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire, who has for a number of years done signal service for London, and is thoroughly acquainted, not merely with London Government, but also with the requirements of London. I therefore feel that the fate of this Bill may well depend on the testimony offered by those two hon. Members, and that the House will do well to accept their advice and to send it to a Select Committee upstairs without any Instruction. I cannot help noticing at the same time the somewhat unholy alliance that has taken place between the city of Westminster and the borough of Stepney in this matter. I suppose there is no question on which the borough of Stepney and the city of Westminster can find common ground so easily as on this particular question. I notice also that that unholy alliance has been joined by the borough of Hampstead. I might draw the attention of the House to this remarkable fact, that, while the borough of Hampstead is strongly opposed to all tramways on whatsoever system they are constructed, the borough of Stepney is only opposed to the particular system on which it is proposed to run them.
I should like to remove one misconception which appears to have sprung up, and that is that there is any wish to deal with the borough of Stepney on this question of tramways on a basis more unfavourable than the rest of London is dealt with. The argument has been advanced by some hon. Members that whilst Stepney pays for putting down an expensive and admirable system in the West of London they are only going to get the cheaper and nastier form themselves. Let me point out there is no question at all of Stepney paying for putting down the conduit system in other parts of London, because, expensive as this system is, it is our pride that up to the present it has paid for itself, both in respect of its running expenses and its capital charges. I think hon. Members on both sides of the House will give credit to the London County Council that they do make their tramways pay, and, although the system has up to the present not fulfilled the somewhat rosy expectations with which it was launched, and has not yet been able to contribute a substantial sum in relief of the rates, at least, under the system and on the principle on which we have been running it in recent years, it has not involved any charge on the rates or ratepayers. There is another point I should like to deal with. My hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras are apprehensive that we are trying to do away with the veto of the borough councils by a side wind. I might remind the House that under this Bill what is ordinarily known as the veto of the borough councils is not involved at all. That question is not at stake. The veto of the borough councils does not depend upon any legislative enactment, but upon the Standing Orders of this House, and it does not relate to the electrification and reconstruction of tramways; it only refers to the construction of new tramways. Pass this Bill in the form in which we ask you to pass it, and that veto of the borough councils in London, under our Standing Orders, the veto with regard to the construction of new tramways, will remain intact and with the same force that obtains to-day.
Has the hon. Member read Clause 5 of the Bill, which does take away from some of the borough councils the right to refuse the overhead system?
I think my hon. Friend is under a misapprehension on that point. The borough councils have no statutory right, nor have they any right under the Standing Orders of this House, to refuse the overhead system with regard to reconstructed and electrified tramways. I do not want to go into the past history of the tramway undertaking, but in the year 1900 we were acquiring, by purchase, a certain number of tramways, and we had also schemes for the construction of a number of tramways, involving the interests of a large number of vestries, as they were then called. We experienced considerable difficulty in the promotion of our Bill. We had a great round table conference, at which certain terms were agreed upon—terms for that year only, or rather terms that applied only to the particular lines mentioned in the 1900 Bill. One of those terms is the term referred to by the hon. Member, namely, that the overhead system should not be put down except with the consent of the borough council. But anybody who reads Section 2 of the Tramways Act, 1900, will see at once that that bargain was confined to that particular Bill. How does it apply to the Bill under discussion? At that round table conference the whole question was thoroughly discussed, and certain Clauses were drawn up with such care that they have, although it was never contemplated that this result would follow, always been treated up to now as standard or model Clauses, and in every Bill we have brought forward up to the present time we have incorporated, sometimes in extenso, sometimes by reference, the Clauses of the 1900 Bill, or such Clauses as suited our purpose. What do we propose in the present Bill? We propose to include in this Bill such portions of the Act of 1900 as suit our purpose. That has always been our practice, and we do not propose, for reasons which I shall give later, to include that particular Clause with regard to the reconstruction of overhead tramways.
The point I was making when I was interrupted was that we are not attacking what is known as the veto of the borough councils, and that so far as the hon. Members for St. Pancras and for Hampstead and the other boroughs are con- cerned they may rest assured that we have no intention at present of so attacking the veto. A point of difference has arisen between the London County Council and the borough of Stepney as to the particular type of tramway that should be installed inside the borough of Stepney. I do not propose to argue the merits of that question, because I feel that this House is not the proper tribunal before whom to argue such a very technical and intricate question. This House has set up a regular procedure for dealing with technical and difficult questions of that character, questions which involve technical evidence and very elaborate arguments. It has always been the practice of this House to send Bills of this character, in which disputes of this nature are involved, and to send them unfettered by any Instruction or expression of opinion, to be considered freely by a Committee upstairs. It has been the practice in railway matters, it has been the practice in regard to tramways promoted by other great corporations in this country, and I do not know of any exception to that practice. I would remind the House that it is the practice that the House has been recommended not to depart from in this particular instance by the Under-Secretary of the Board of Trade speaking on behalf of the Government.
Some hon. Members have made a great point with regard to the unsuitability of the conduit system for this particular route. I do not wish to argue the merits of that system here, but I think I ought to remind the House of the circumstances under which the conduit system was adopted in London. It has never been regarded, even by people who advocated its installation within their boroughs, as an ideal system. The hon. Member for Central Finsbury, speaking at an earlier stage in this Debate, called attention to the larger proportion of accidents on the overhead system as compared with the conduit system. I am told that the hon. Gentleman was misinformed on that point, and that there are fewer accidents with the overhead system, with an efficient trolley apparatus at work, and accidents in themselves less inconvenient to ordinary traffic, than there are where you have got the plough. Our experience in a great many districts in London has been that the residents actually prefer the overhead system to the conduit system, and for one very simple reason, that where you have got a centre slot, necessitated by a conduit, you have in ordinary circumstances to put down granite setts as pavement, whereas where you have the overhead system you are enabled to put down wood paving. It is obvious that to the ordinary man residing by the side of a tramway route it is infinitely preferable, and more agreeable to him, to have wood paving than granite setts, because the traffic over wood paving makes less noise. We had to choose in the first instance between the conduit system, which costs £17,000 per track mile, and we adopted it, as against the overhead system which only costs about £9,500 per track mile. We adopted the more expensive system, in accordance with Dr. Kennedy's advice. Dr. Kennedy pointed out, what we all admit, that there were a great many busy thoroughfares in London for which the overhead system was not suitable, and he took the classic instance of the Elephant and Castle, where a large number of lines converge, and where, if you had extended the overhead system, you would have had a network of wires between the passers by and the sky. But because there are certain traffic centres in London, certain points of convergence, where the overhead system is not suitable, that does not by any means show that there are not a great many parts of London where the overhead system is infinitely preferable to the conduit system.
The other great point that has been raised with regard to the overhead system is that it depreciates property. Every time we have proposed to put down the overhead system property owners have come before the council and argued that we shall depreciate their property. We have put down the overhead system on the Streatham and Norbury route, where a large number of the houses exceed a rateable value of £100, and on the Harrow Road, where the rateable value exceeds £110. In part of Stepney, in Lauriston Road, the rateable value is from £10 to £31; in Grove Road it is from £14 to £35, and in Burdett Road it is not very much higher. There is no question of our putting down in the East End of London a cheaper form of traction than we put down in the rest of London. The hon. Member (Mr. Fred Hall) the last time the question was discussed, quoted a large number of routes, mostly in the West End of London, most of them in a prosperous part of London, in which were put down overhead lines. In this very Bill it is proposed to put the overhead system on the route between Wood Lane and Harrow Road. I do not think hon. Members who have studied the action of the London County Council in the past will for a moment attempt to substantiate the case that we are trying to do the East End of London on the cheap. We have about 140 route miles of electrified tramways in London, of which over 20 per cent, are at present electrified on the overhead system, and the majority of these overhead lines are in the West End, and the more prosperous parts of London.
Another point I should like to deal with is the special case which exists, so far as this line is concerned, for putting down an. overhead line. Every hon. Member who has spoken in this Debate has commented on the fact that the horse line is not adequate. Various reasons have been, assigned. We have been told that if it. was properly linked up it would be adequate. We have had a very elaborate calculation compiled as to the prospective profits which would accrue if we electrified the lines. I am sorry to say that even electrification does not give us a promise of any profit at all. If we electrify on the conduit system we lose upwards of £4,000 a year. If we electrify on the overhead system we only lose £l,730 for the first year, diminishing slightly in subsequent years. One hon. Member asked why, if we are going to incur a loss, do we electrify at all. My answer to that is simple. We are a. municipal (body, and we run tramways not for dividends, but for the convenience of the public at large. We quite recognise that there are streets in London in which it may be necessary for us to run tramways, although it is impossible to do so at a profit, but I do suggest that in meeting the convenience of the travelling: public we ought to do it at as low a cost as possible to the ratepayers. The point has-already been made that the difference between the reconstruction of these lines on the conduit and the overhead system is about £30,000, which, after all, when one considers the comparatively small amount yielded by a penny rate in London is, as I think hon. Members will agree, sufficiently large to be-worth our while to save. I have endeavoured to show to the satisfaction of the House that the construction of the conduit system in this particular road is, first of all, unnecessary so far as the convenience of the district is concerned; secondly, that, in view of the heavy financial loss which will be incurred in any case by the running-of the tramway, we are not justified in reconstructing it on the more expensive scale; and, thirdly, that, although in this particular case we do propose to override the wishes of the borough of Stepney, we are at the same time dealing out to Stepney no harsher measure than we have dealt out to Kensington, Hammersmith, Paddington, and some of the other great boroughs in the West End of London. We lave a special claim to deal with Stepney somewhat less considerately in this matter than the other boroughs, because they have always met us with less readiness and in a less friendly and accommodating spirit than other boroughs, such as Bow and Bromley.
I am sorry the question of stud tramways has been introduced into this discussion. I do not wish to trouble the House with the whole history of that experiment in London, but I may point out two facts in that connection. In the first place, the system was tried with the consent of the borough council itself; and, in the second place, the borough council of Stepney gave its full consent to the laying down of the stud system in Aldgate and Bow Road. They refused the overhead system there, and we were unable to lay the conduit system owing to the height of the arch of the railway, as hon. Members know. The question which this House has really to decide this evening is whether the conduit system or the overhead system should be laid down on this particular road. That is a question for the Committee to decide. The borough of Stepney will have every right to be heard fully. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade very truly remarked the other evening that if they present their case before the Committee with the same eloquence, force, and cogency with which they have presented it to this House they ought to be the last people to decline to refer this Bill to a Select Committee. What I suggest is that there is no case, especially in view of the advice offered by the hon. Gentleman on behalf of the Government of this House to depart from ordinary procedure and refuse to send this Bill upstairs unhampered and unfettered by any instruction or direction.
As a Member for a London constituency, and one who was for a good many years a Member of the London County Council, I do not wish to give a silent vote on this subject. It was a relief to hear from the hon. Member for Bath (Lord A. Thynne) that the London County Council tramway system was self-supporting, because I recollect that not so long ago the municipal party with which the Noble Lord is associated, won an election in London by representing that the county council tramway system was insolvent, bankrupt, and fraudulent. But passing from that I notice that the Noble Lord spoke about an unholy alliance between Westminster and Stepney, and he might have extended that epithet "unholy" to Hampstead and many other boroughs, the Members for which are in favour of the Instruction now proposed. What is the alliance? It is an alliance based on common danger. Stepney is being attacked to-day, but in some other Session of Parliament it may be any Metropolitan borough. That is what we have to look forward to, and this is not in a well considered Bill dealing with the whole of London, but in a Clause tacked on to a tramway Bill depriving them of the rights that they would enjoy under the Tramways Act of 1900. I confess quite frankly I have my fears about my own Constituency. I do not want to have the Arcadian suburb of Islington invaded by a system of tramways which has been discarded as unsightly, dangerous, and inconvenient by places like Bermondsey and many of the boroughs north and south of the Thames. One argument which impressed me in this Debate was that which was used by my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Board of Trade, and repeated at much greater length, but not so cogently, by the Noble Lord the Member for Bath. It was that this is essentially a question for a Committee, and that a Committee can deal with the points which are raised here more effectively than this House can. That argument has often appealed to me, and is sometimes cogent and convincing, but I think that, although it is a good argument in itself, on this occasion it is not applicable to the circumstances of the case, because here the London County Council propose, by a private Bill, to vary the terms of a general Act which applies to the whole of London, and deals with tramways only, and that brings us very nearly to the analogy frequently made in this House of endeavouring to alter a public law by a private Bill. In 1900 we had a Chinese puzzle in connection with London government. We found that the tramway authority for London was the London County Council, and that the road authorities were the Metropolitan borough councils. All these bodies were in conflict. It was tried in the Tramways Act applying to London, in the year 1900, to compromise between the conflicting authorities, so that the London County Council, while having power to extend its tramway in certain directions should not, in the exercise of that power, impose the overhead system on any Metropolitan borough without its own consent. It is in the endeavour to get rid of that veto in regard to particular boroughs that the Bill comes before us to-day. I think the argument is conclusive that there is no reason why on this occasion we should deprive Stepney of the protection of the general Act applying to the whole of Lon-d6n, nor is there any reason why we should accept the Instruction. I say quite frankly that I am actuated not only by the requirements of Stepney but as the representative of a borough for which I have as high regard and tender feeling as any other Member can feel for his Constituency.
The speech of the hon. Member opposite has made it quite clear that if this Bill is passed in the form in which it is to be sent upstairs, it is the thin end of the wedge for abolishing the veto which the borough councils possess in regard to tramways. Seeing I come from Marylebone it is a little unfortunate to find myself opposed to the Noble Lord the Member for Bath (Lord A. Thynne) who represents Marylebone on the London County Council. I have" been asked by the borough council of Marylebone to register my protest against this Bill, and to vote in favour of the Instruction. It is pretty well understood, in fact it has been the thinly veiled threat of late, that if any borough ventures any longer to oppose the London County Council on another Bill in respect of tramways, an attempt will be made to abolish the veto of the boroughs. We were in fact told that quite recently in Marylebone in connection with the tramway from Cricklewood viâ Maida Vale to Marble Arch; and I have risen at the request of my Constituency to protest against what we in Marylebone, and I think in twenty-one other boroughs of London, deem to be an attempt to get the abolition of the veto which the boroughs possess at the present time.
With all due deference to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, I trust the House will not accept this suggestion, and send it upstairs. I speak as a London Member, and as one who was for some years a member of the London County Council at a time when both parties in that body were unanimous in upholding the conduit system. I am surprised that any hon. Gentleman can come here at this time of day and endeavour to bring right into London—whatever may be thought of it in the suburbs—the overhead system of tramways, as they propose to do with regard to Stepney. One hon. Member spoke of the tramways of Paris as though they could be compared with those of London. When I have visited Paris and seen the tramways there I always felt glad when I got back to London and rode over our splendid tramway system, which is the pride of London, and is the admiration of travellers from all parts of the Continent, because there are no tramways in the world which can compare with the London tramways. I hope the advice of the Noble Lord will not be taken. It was very ingenious of him to try and persuade the House to send the question upstairs, and let it get settled there. Possession is nine points of the law, and if you send a question upstairs nine times out of ten you will carry what you want. I hope you will not send it upstairs. I trust that the conduit system will be maintained. Speaking about the control of the main roads, may I say for myself that I have always felt that the county council made a great mistake in not having control of the main roads. That, however, has nothing to do with the present question. I appeal to hon. Members who are not London Members to support us. You come to London and you ride in this splendid service of cars, and get the advantage of it. I ask hon. Gentlemen from the provinces, from Scotland, from Glasgow, that wonderful go-ahead city, would you not be glad to have our conduit system? I am sure you would, and so would anyone from the provinces. I cannot understand an up-to-date Gentleman like the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury) going in for this antiquated overhead system; but, at any rate, do not let us have it in Stepney. I do not contradict the Noble Lord when he says that there are more accidents caused by the conduit system than by the overhead system, but I should like to have a little more proof. Then as to granite setts. I inquired from one of the hon. Members for Finsbury, who was Chairman of the Tramways Committee, and he informed me there is no real difficulty in substituting wood. They can do that, and, if necessary, bring the wood right up to the slot, so that the difficulty can be got over. I appeal to the House to reject this proposal, and not let us have this abomination thrust on us in the very heart of London.
I think I can claim to be a London Member and to know something about the East End of London. I suggest at once that the fact of a veto being put in the original Bill for the borough councils was to protect the poorer boroughs, owing to the enormous expense. The Noble Lord, in pleading for the overhead system, emphasises the fact that Stepney contributed nothing, and that in fact nobody contributed anything, and that you would get a tramway and a tramway system for nothing. Very well, if that costs nothing give us the conduit system. You cannot argue on the score of cost if you say it costs nothing to do it. We heard some very wonderful statements from the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley (Mr. Lansbury). He is anxious to get tramways anyhow. They have got a funny thing running down there now and they take people on excursions there to see the horse tramway. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green, argued that you would lose £4,000 per year if you had the conduit system, and he said the figures of the expert officers of the county council proved that. I made an interjection which I was told was unparliamentary, and I can not repeat it. The fact of the matter is that if you had an improved system at that particular point you would carry twenty times as many people as you are now carrying. What is the House being asked to do? I know that the Poplar Borough Council in a weak moment allowed the overhead system in Bow Road and Mile End Road, but I believe that all the best people have regretted it ever since. Let the House remember that it is now proposed that the trolley system shall twice cross the conduit system. At Burdett Road, West India Dock Road and East India Dock Road, the junction is already in. It is said that the Elephant and Castle is rather overcrowded. But size for size this particular junction is just as busy. It is densely populated and crowded. I stood there for a little while to-day and wondered how the traffic was going to be got across the road. It is said that Burdett Road is composed of miserable little houses rated at about £14 a year. That will be news to the East End. We look upon Burdett Road as being quite our swell thoroughfare. We have nothing to equal it. There are actually trees planted in it, and you are going to make it more ugly by putting wires over it. I hope you will do nothing of the kind. It is certainly a beautiful East End road. At Mile End Road you cross the conduit system. You then go on to Grove Road, which is not so fine a road, but then it is in Bethnal Green. You go right through the parks. Will anybody deny that these overhead wires destroy the beauty of Victoria Park? Why should we have it inflicted upon us for the convenience of some outside authority. With regard to the twenty-three miles of overhead system, in no case was it originally installed; it was always to connect an outside authority. I am sure this House does not want to inflict injustice. If it is desired to connect up with a district where the trolley system is in vogue it may come in, just as West Ham, Middlesex, and other authorities come in at present. But, so far as London is concerned, we ought, as far as we possibly can, to prevent the establishment of any more trolley system. I know no place that lends itself with such advantage to the conduit system as this particular area. Other local authorities are not interfered with under Clause 8. Everybody else is to have the powers, but these three authorities are not.
This Bill proposes to construct a number of tramways. Three are to be on the overhead system. The others are to be on the conduit system, and therefore the standard Clause applies to them.
The expression of the opinion of the London Members as a whole, with one solitary exception, is against the introduction of the trolley system. London ought to be heard as well as Walthamstow, Ilford, and West Ham. I do not see why this short route should be forced upon us at all. I hope the House will agree that this system shall not be introduced into the East End.
The point of this Instruction is a very important one, as it involves a question of principle. I do not quite see what we have to do with the question of pavements and granite setts, or as to whether the overhead system or the conduit system will be the cheapest or the most expensive, or whether or not we should have the Stud system. The whole point seems to me to be this: By the Act of 1900 this House, which gave the power to the London County Council to electrify their trams, adopted the principle that if the county council proposed to put up an overhead system they should not do so unless they got the consent of the borough councils. The Act provided, too, that it should be a very formal matter, the consent should be embodied in a resolution of the borough council under its seal, and should be delivered to the county council.
That related to the tramways under that particular Act.
I agree. But the principle has been adopted by this House on subsequent occasions—in 1894, I think. No doubt that was a considered opinion of the House. It is obvious why: that the House allows that those who live in the borough would know most about its requirements, its streets? etc. Does it not rest upon the county council to show that the general principle should be departed from? Have they so shown? I venture to submit to the House that it is just the other way about. I have listened to this Debate all through, and I have come to the conclusion that the London County Council have made out no case whatever for departure from the general principle of this Act. The London County Council propose that the consent of the Board of Trade shall first be obtained, and that then that the borough council of Stepney shall be consulted! It is nothing less than a farce to talk of going to consult a borough council whose opinion you have done your best deliberately to override. I dare say there are other Members who are not London Members and desire to speak, and therefore I will not go further than to submit that it is a question of principle and not of detail. We are not here to consider which is the best system, or whether or not a certain amount of money should be spent. It is a matter solely for this House, and ought not to be sent to the Committee. It ought to be dealt with by this Instruction, and therefore I shall vote in favour of it.
I do not wish to give a silent vote. I am asked by the people of Shoreditch to express their opinion. There are two questions. The first is the general question of the veto as exercised by the borough council. The second question is whether it is reasonable in its attempt to exercise its veto in this case. For my part, I think there should be a readjustment of the powers of the local and central bodies in London, but shall not discuss that now. The reason why this endeavour is to be made to put up the overhead system in this case is because it is supposed that the conduit system cannot be made to pay. Why? If you establish a system which can be run in connection with the main routes from Aldgate it will take tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people more. Although the original cost may be a little greater, and in that respect only will the expense be larger, I believe that as the route becomes more popular it can be made to pay if it is run in connection with other lines. This line is run through roads which are residential roads and are very largely narrow roads. In other districts near London which have the overhead system they are largely business thoroughfares and very wide roads. The overhead system is more noisy, and therefore more objectionable in residential districts, and has much more to do with breaking the rest of people. I do not know whether it is because this is a poor district, where the houses are inexpensive and occupied by the working classes, that this system is to be forced upon them. All the representatives excepting one—the Member for Bow and Bromley—the Members for Lime-house, Stepney, Hackney, and Mile End, are against the establishment of this system there. I am asked to say that Shoreditch is entirely in sympathy with them. We have the conduit system in our district, and it serves us well, and we think it would serve that district equally well, and that the overhead system is entirely unsuitable for the inner parts of London. I feel very strongly that we would make a mistake in allowing this Bill to go up without the Instruction, and I hope the House will carry the Instruction.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 141; Noes, 39.
Division No. 73.] AYES. [10.55 P.m. Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Bagot Lieut.-colonel J. Baltour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Acland, Francis Dyke Baird, J. L. Banbury, Sir Frederick George Ainsworth, John Stirling Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Barnes, G. N. Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Bennett-Goidney, Francis Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Booth, Frederick Handel Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Bowerman, C. W. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Pointer, Joseph Boyton, James Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Power, Patrick Joseph Buckmaster, Stanley 0. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Radford, George Heynes Bull, Sir William James Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Raffan, Peter Wilson Burdett-Coutts, William Hayward, Evan Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Burke, E. Haviland- Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Burn, Colonel C. R. Henry, Sir Charles Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) Hickman, Col. Thomas E. Reddy, Michael Byles, Sir William Pollard Higham, John Sharp Richardson. Albion (Peckham) Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Hinds, John Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Carr-Gomm, H. W. Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Cassel, Felix Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Cawley, H. T. (Lanes., Heywood) Hudson, Walter Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Hughes, Spencer Leigh Roche, Augustine (Louth) Chancellor, Henry George illingworth, Percy H. Roe, Sir Thomas Chapple, Dr. William Allen Jessel, Captain Herbert M. Rose, Sir Charles Day Clough, William Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Rowlands, James Clynes, John R. Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) Sanderson, Lancelot Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Joynson-Hicks, William Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) Cowan, W. H. Kilbride, Denis Spicer, Sir Albert Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) King, Joseph Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Crawshay-Willlams, Eliot Kyffin-Taylor, G. Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) Crooks, William Lamb, Ernest Henry Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Toulmin, Sir George Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Verney, Sir H. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) M'Callum, John M. Wason, Rt. Hon E. (Clackmannan) Elverston, Sir Harold M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Essex, Richard Walter McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Whitehouse, John Howard Fell, Arthur Malcolm, Ian Whyte, A. F. (Perth) Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Marks, Sir George Croydon Wilkie, Alexander Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Martin, Joseph Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Gelder, Sir W. A. Masterman, C. F. G. Wood, John (Stalybridge) Gibbs, George Abraham Middlebrook, William Worthington-Evens, L. Clanville, Harold James Morgan, George Hay Yate, Col. C. E. Goldstone, Frank Morrell, Philip Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) Gretton, John Munro, Robert Young, William (Perth, East) Griffith, Ellis Jones Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Yoxall, Sir James Henry Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Norton-Griffiths, J. Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset. E.) Nuttall, Harry TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Harry Lawson and Mr. W. Pearce. Gulland, John William O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
NOES. Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) Greig, Colonel James William Pringle, William M. R. Ashley, Wilfrid W. Hardie, J. Keir Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Balcarres, Lord Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Roch, Walter F. Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Sanders, Robert Arthur Beck, Arthur Cecil Hodge, John Sherwell, Arthur James Bridgeman, William Clive Jowett, Frederick William Shortt, Edward Bryce, J. Annan Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Snowden, Philip Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Lansbury, George Talbot, Lord Edmund Dawes, James Arthur Maclean, Donald Tennant, Harold John Do Forest, Baron Macpherson, James Ian Tullibardine, Marquess of Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Marshall, Sir Arthur Harold Goldsmith, Frank O'Grady, James Greene, Walter Raymond Parker, James (Halifax) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord A. Thynne and Mr. Shirley Benn. Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Pollock, E. M.
Inebriates Bill
Postponed Proceeding on Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," resumed.
Question again proposed:—Debate arising;
And, it being after Eleven of the clock, and objection being taken to further Proceeding, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed To-morrow (Tuesday).
Military Manœuvres Acts
I beg to move, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying His Majesty to-make an Order in Council under the Military Manœuvres Acts, 1897 and 1911, a Draft of which was presented to this House on the 14th February last."
This is exempted business, but if any hon. Member wishes me to explain the circumstances, I shall be glad to do so. This; however, is exactly the measure that was proposed last year.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to state whether final provision has been made for the protection of the various interests in the area specified in the Schedule, more particularly with regard to the damage to hedges and highways and interference with the ordinary traffic of the district concerned by motor scouts. I think it is within the knowledge of the House that at present the carrying of messages, instead of being done by mounted men, as heretofore, is done very largely by motor cars, and no regard is paid by those scouts to the regulation speeds obtaining in the district. What I want to ascertain from the right hon. Gentleman is whether the various interests will be duly safeguarded in connection with this application, more particularly with regard to the securing of the safety of ordinary pedestrian and other traffic. I want specially that the ordinary traffic shall not be exposed to unnecessary danger or even unduly interfered with. Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House some assurance that local interest will be duly safeguarded?
I can only reply by leave of the House. If this Order is passed the Military Manœuvres Commission is set up and represents fully the different interests in the area where the manœuvres take place. I have no doubt whatever that full consideration will be given to every interest, including the roads and other interests to which the hon. and gallant Member specifically referred; at any rate, his suggestion shall be borne carefully in mind.
Question put; and agreed to.
Resolution to be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of His Majesty's Household.
Mr. Burns (Reported Accident)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Mr. Gulland. ]
May I ask whether there is any truth in the rumour that an accident has happened to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Burns)?
Perhaps I may say that, so far as we can ascertain, there is no truth in the rumour. Scotland Yard is not aware of anything of the-kind, and I cannot trace it either to Battersea or to any other source.
Question put, and agreed to.
House adjourned accordingly at Twelve-minutes after Eleven o'clock.