House of Commons
Tuesday, April 23, 1912
Private Business
Private Bill Petitions [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—
London Trust Company [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Petition for additional Provision) (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—
Great Northern Railway Bill [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Message from the Lords
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to repeal and re-enact, with amendments, an Act relating to the embankment and drainage of certain low lands in the townships of Everton, Scaft-worth, Gringley-on-the-Hill, Misterton, and Walkeringham, in the county of Nottingham, and to make further and better provision in respect thereof." [Everton, etc., Drainage Bill [ Lords ],
Everton, etc., Drainage Bill [ Lords ],
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Belgian Light Railways
Copy presented of Report to the Board of Trade by Lieutenant-Colonel H. A. Yorke, R.E., C.B., on the Construction and Working of Light Railways (Chemins de fer Vicinaux) in Belgium [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Imperial Revenue (Collection and Expenditure) (Great Britain and Ireland)
Return ordered, "relating to Imperial Revenue (Collection and Expenditure) (Great Britain and Ireland) for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1912 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 221, of Session 1911)."—[ Mr. J. A. Pease. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Betting Agents Abroad
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he had received representations concerning the British firms of turf accountants and betting agents who now carry on a business in Switzerland which would be illegal if carried on in this country; whether he was aware that the firms in question were previously carrying on this business in Holland until legally expelled from that country; and whether he would approach the Governments of foreign countries with a view to concerted action or legislation to suppress evils of this character?
The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the negative. As to the second part, I am aware that the business referred to has been made illegal in Holland. In reply to the third part, His Majesty's Government are not prepared (as at present advised) to act on my hon. Friend's suggestion.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been directed to betting agents' advertisements offering to carry on abroad, and especially in Switzerland, a business which is illegal and subjects to penalties those engaged in it; and whether he will introduce legislation to prevent the invitation being extended to innocent persons to commit an act abroad which is I an offence at home?
The subject is receiving the consideration of the Government but my right hon. Friend is afraid he cannot promise legislation at present.
Italy and Turkey
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has Consular or other information to show that Italy or Italian firms are supplying arms and ammunition to North Albanian tribes or to others who are in revolt or contemplating revolt against Turkish rule and authority?
The answer is in the negative.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any official information tending to show that Austria-Hungary is maintaining neutrality in the war between Italy and Turkey on condition that Italy makes no attack in Turkey's dominions in Europe?
I am not aware of any such agreement.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, during the present year, communications have passed between the Foreign Office and foreign Governments submitting proposals for bringing to an end the present hostilities between Italy and Turkey; if so, whether negotiations are still proceeding or have been abandoned; and whether information can be given as to the nature of the proposals made?
The Powers have asked the Italian Government on what conditions they would be disposed to accept the friendly mediations of the Powers and an analogous procedure has been followed at Constantinople.
Can we have a fuller statement perhaps on Thursday next, when the Foreign Secretary might be in his place? In view of the very urgent and extraordinary developments in the East, may we expect the Foreign Secretary to be here on that day?
The Foreign Secretary is having a holiday until the end of this week. I think if ever anyone deserved a holiday he does. On this matter we have given a very full answer. The Powers have asked the Italian Government on what conditions they would be prepared to accept friendly communications from the Powers, and analogous procedure has been followed at Constantinople. We have not yet received any reply from Constantinople, and there is really nothing more to be said.
Does that answer refer to quite recent events? There appears to be no statement in the answer referring to quite recent events.
A request by the Powers to know the terms on which friendly communications would be received has reference to quite recent events.
Has any reply been received from Rome?
Yes, Sir, a reply has been received.
Foreign War Vessels Building (Commandeering)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any inquiries or communications have been received from foreign Powers as to the commandeering in time of war of war vessels in the course of construction in this country for foreign Governments; and, if so, whether the answer of the Government could be made public?
The answer is in the negative.
Persia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he would state what is the total number of Russian troops at present in Persia; what is the number of those who have entered Persia since the presentation of the two ultimata in November last; and whether any, and, if so, how many have been withdrawn from Persian territory in consequence of the acceptance by the Persian Government of the Russian demands?
I have no later information of a sufficiently clear or definite nature to supplement the answer returned to the hon. Member on the 26th ultimo.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he has yet received any further report as to the recent bombardment by Russian troops of the sacred shrine at Meshed, in Persia; whether he can state how many of the sixty-five persons killed and injured were pilgrims and how many were agitators whom the Russian Government desired to clear out from the basti quarters attached to the shrine; and what reason is alleged for this refusal to recognise the well-known Persian custom of bast or refuge?
I have as yet received no information beyond that conveyed in my reply to the hon. Member's question on the 16th instant, and do not expect to receive any till the arrival of dispatches from His Majesty's Minister at Teheran reporting fully as to the incident. I will let my hon. Friend know when these dispatches are received.
Anglo-Japanese Commercial Treaty
asked what precedent there was for the inclusion, without the approval of Parliament, of Article 8 in the Anglo-Japanese Commercial Treaty (1911), limiting the freedom of action of the Imperial Parliament in imposing duties upon goods imported from a foreign country?
I beg to refer the hon. Member to the answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Darlington on 11th December last.
Gold (Indian Imports)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India if he can state the amount of sovereigns imported from Australia by India during the last ten years?
The Returns available do not distinguish between sovereigns and bullion. The imports of gold into India from Australia (including, since 1907, imports from New Zealand) for the ten years 1902–11 were £44,323,279.
asked if the Under-Secretary can state the amount of Indian imports of gold from all quarters for 1909, 1910, and 1911, and since 1st January, 1912, to the latest available date, with the amounts in the corresponding period in 1909, 1910, and 1911?
The total amounts were:— £369,009 in the corresponding month of 1909; £4,165,421 in 1910, and £3,085,724 in 1911.
asked if the Under-Secretary can say whether there has been any marked preference by the natives of India for hoarding sovereigns, gold ornaments, and gold bars, instead of silver, since the loss experienced by the natives in the famines of 1896–7 and 1899–1900, after the mints had been closed, when they came to realise their savings represented by silver ornaments?
There are indications of a growing disposition on the part of the people of India to hoard gold instead of silver, but there are no sufficient data for judging the extent of the change that may be taking place in the tastes of the people in this respect, or the period from which it dates.
asked if the Under-Secretary can say whether in recent years the position of Australian exchange on London has enabled Australian sovereigns to be laid down in India considerably under the English bullion point, i.e. , the cost of shipping sovereigns from London to India?
The answer is in the affirmative.
Indian Press
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the action of the magistracy of Lahore in demanding two deposits of Rs.1,000 from the publisher of a newspaper entitled the "Zemindar"; that the publisher was summoned before the district magistrate to state his intentions in regard to the issue of the daily and weekly editions of the newspaper in question; whether, having regard to the fact that a declaration was waived in respect of the daily edition of the "Zemindar," thus constituting the paper an old or existing publication to which the provisions of Sub-section (1) of Section 4 of Act 1 of 1910 could not apply, the action of the district magistrate is ultra vires ; and, if so, will steps be taken to annul the decision in this case and to define the provisions of the Act clearly, so that in future the press of India may know how it stands in respect to the law?
I have seen only newspaper reports of this matter, but will make inquiry. I have no reason to think that the declaration as to printing made under the Act of 1867 (which my hon. Friend possibly confuses with the deposit of security under the Act of 1910) had been waived. The magistrate was certainly not acting ultra vires if the Local Government considered that the paper had published matter of the kind defined in Section 4 (1) of the Act of 1910; and the fact that security has not hitherto been demanded from a newspaper does not in the least bar the requirement of security if the paper publishes matter offending against the law. This is fully understood by all concerned.
Newcastle Children's Police Court (Case of George Bryden)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of a child named George Bryden, who was tried at the Newcastle children's police court on 3rd April and committed to a reformatory school for a period of four years; and whether, previous to his appearance at the children's court, he had served as a private in His Majesty's Army?
I have been making inquiries into this case. It appears that the boy was attested on 30th January, that he gave his age as 17, and that this was supported by a posted letter purporting to come from his father to the effect that he was 17 years and two weeks old. The boy subsequently admitted that he wrote the letter himself. His height was 5 feet 5 inches, weight 115 pounds, and chest measurement 34½ inches, with a range of expansion of 4½ inches. His correct age was 15. He was tried in the children's court because the police had already ascertained his real age in connection with another offence committed prior to enlistment.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will take steps to protect the Army from the ravages of the children's charter?
Well, Sir, I think it was admitted that this was a very fine child. From all appearances he was a full-grown man, and one cannot prevent occasional cases of fraud of this kind.
Lieutenant-Colonel Morgan
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will explain why the name of Lieutenant-Colonel H. G. Morgan, C.B., D.S.O., appears as managing director of the Services Canadian Land Company in the register at Somerset House, No. 39,770, on 17th April?
On the 28th March Lieutenant-Colonel Morgan wrote to inform the Army Council that he had accepted the managing directorate mentioned, and to submit accordingly his resignation. On the 3rd April he wrote again stating that his contract as managing director would not be entered into for some time to come, if at all, and asking that he might be allowed to withdraw his resignation. On the 17th April—the day following the reply I gave to the hon. Gentleman on the subject—he wrote stating that since his previous letter the company had been floated, but that he had not yet entered into any agreement to act as its managing director, and again submitting his resignation. This resignation was accepted by the Army Council on Saturday last—the 20th—to take effect from that day.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the register at Somerset House is incorrect?
I do not know how the mistake arose on the part of those concerned, but I have given the hon. Gentleman a full account of what took place. It appears that after his appointment as managing director he wrote and said—I can give his exact words—that it could not be entered into for some time, if at all. He then withdrew his resignation. Afterwards it was found that there was a prospect of his being able to accept the appointment.
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will put Somerset House right as to the register?
I do not think that is a question for me. I suppose it is possible for a list of directors to be registered and for it to be found subsequently that the company could not be floated.
Direct and Indirect Taxation (United Kingdom)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the present percentage of direct as compared with that of indirect taxation in the United Kingdom?
The percentages of direct and indirect taxation in the United Kingdom on the basis of the Budget Estimates of Revenue for the year 1912–13 are 57.27 and 42.73 respectively. This calculation is made on the principle which I explained in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Colchester on the 27th June last.
Imperial Conference (Representation of India)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when, and in what circumstances, it was settled years ago that there should be no representation of India at the Imperial Conference; whether the arrangement has been carried out; and, if not, why a decision has been avoided?
The constitution of the Imperial Conference was settled by the first resolution of the Colonial Conference of 1907. This resolution contemplates the attendance of the Secretary of State for India at the Conference for any discussion in which his interests are specially involved. But there has never been any question of the participation of India as a separate unit in the Conferences which have been held since 1897 between the Mother-country and the self-governing Dominions. Nor was India so represented at the Conference of 1887.
asked whether it has been the custom to invite the Secretary of State for India to attend the Imperial Conference; and on what occasions the invitation has been refused, and at which of the Conferences the Secretary of State for India has been an absentee?
The Secretary of State for India attended the Imperial Conference of 1911 at the meeting on the eleventh day for the purpose of taking part in the discussion upon matters affecting Indian emigrants. The Secretary of State for India also attended the formal opening meeting of the Colonial Conference of 1907, and on one other day, as well as that of the Conference of 1887. He did not attend at any meeting of the Conferences of 1897 and 1902.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that at the 1911 Conference Lord Crewe, then Secretary of State for India, took a prominent part in the debate raised by Sir Joseph Ward on the question of Indian emigration and immigration within the Dominions; and that Sir James Mackay (now Lord Inch-cape) was specially invited to represent the India Office at the 1907 Conference; whether he did attend the Conference in that capacity; whether he was present at every sitting of the Conference; whether he took part in the debate on preferential trade, presenting the view of India from the free trade standpoint; and, if the reply to these questions be in the affirmative, will he explain Lord Inchcape's presence at the 1907 Conference, in view of the settled policy that there should be no representation of India at the Imperial Conference?
The facts are practically as stated. As I have already explained there has been no participation of India as a separate unit of the Empire. The Prime Minister, in his opening address at the Conference of 1907, referred to the presence of Sir James Mackay by saying "if any question should arise with regard to India, you will have the advice of a most distinguished member of Council, Sir James Mackay." Sir James Mackay, now Lord Inchcape, was specially selected to represent the India Office on that occasion, but under the present constitution of the Imperial Conference only a Minister can be a member of the Conference and speak in that capacity.
Is it not a fact that Lord Inchcape was present at every meeting of the Conference?
Yes; Sir James Mackay was appointed at the earlier Conference as representative of the India Office.
What is the difference between a representative of India and a representative of the India Office?
It is a fine distinction which may be better explained by the Under-Secretary for India.
Is it too late to consider the representation of our Indian Empire at the Imperial Conference?
Yes.
London Parks (Games)
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether any complaints have been made as to the use of Hyde Park for organised games for children in London schools?
No, Sir. No complaints have been received. On the contrary, great pleasure has been expressed by all parties concerned.
By whom were these games organised?
The management of the games is in the hands of the officials of the London County Council.
Victoria Tower Garden
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East whether he can give an approximate date for the completion of the garden which is to be laid out on the site now being cleared in Millbank Street; whether plans have yet. been prepared showing the dimensions of the garden and the manner in which it is to be laid out; and whether he has any other information to give to the House in the matter?
The plan for laying out the Victoria Tower Garden, as enlarged, is now under consideration. The First Commissioner cannot say when the work will be finished, but it is not likely to be before the summer of next year. He proposes to put the plans, when they are completed, in the Tea Room for the inspection and approval of hon. Members, and it has been suggested to him that he should provide a site in the garden for the group of statuary by Rodin, known as the "Burghers of Calais."
Millbank (Wood Paving)
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East whether he is aware that, when the widening of Mill-bank is completed and the new street is paved, the macadam roads of Abingdon Street and St. Margaret's Street on the east side of Parliament Square, which are under the jurisdiction of the Office of Works, will be connected at each end with paved surfaces; and whether he will take steps to lay down permanent paving instead of macadam at the earliest possible moment?
The First Commissioner hopes to be able to lay down wood paving on the portions of these roadways which are under his control when the work being carried out by the local authorities has been completed.
St. James's Palace
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East whether, in view of the recommendations of the Chief Commisioner of Police for an alteration in the position of the refuge in the roadway at the junction of Pall Mall and the bottom of St. James's Street, and of the wish of the Westminster City Council to carry out the suggested alteration, he could see his way to pave the macadam roadway in front of St. James's Palace, which is under the jurisdiction of the Office of Works, at an early date, so as to obviate the congestion of vehicular traffic; and whether he is aware that congestion is caused not only by the awkward position of the refuge, but also by the traffic avoiding the defective macadam roadway and keeping to the wood pavement?
The First Commissioner considers that the paving of the roadway in front of St. James's Palace ought to be done. He cannot, however, promise that it shall be carried out during the present financial year, owing to lack of funds.
Will the hon. Member use his influence with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to get the necessary funds? It is only a small amount.
The Estimates for this year have been settled. The matter will be considered when the Estimates for next year are being considered.
Cannot the hon. Member do something in the interval?
Is not the West End of London rich enough to pay for this?
Will the hon. Member put down a Supplementary Vote? It is not a question of the West End of London.
I will indicate what the hon. Member says to the First Commissioner. I do not know whether he will consider it important enough to put down a Supplementary Estimate for the purpose.
Shops Act (1911)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that the Regulations under the Shops Act, 1911, were issued so short a time before 1st May, the date on which the Act comes into force, it would be possible to obtain a short postponement of that date; and, if not, whether he will consider the desirability in the circumstances of providing that local authorities should refrain from exercising their penal powers until a reasonable time had elapsed within which local authorities and traders can make the necessary arrangements for giving effect to the provisions of the Act?
The Secretary of State has no power to postpone the date on which the Act comes into force or to instruct local authorities to refrain from enforcing its provisions. I may point out, however, that the Regulations refer, in the main, not to the compulsory provisions of the Act, but to those which depend on the action of the local authority, and which the local authorities will certainly not put into operation prematurely. The only Regulations affecting the compulsory provisions are those relating to the notice to be given of the day for the assistants half-holiday and to the conditions under which a mixed shop may be kept open on the half-holiday, and it is thought the interval of a month between the issue of the Regulations and the coming into force of the Act will be found to be ample so far as these two Regulations are concerned.
In view of the fact that the Bill provides, in Section (4) that three months' notice shall be given before any alteration takes place, in the absence of the local authorities having time to issue those Regulations, will the Home Office take any action if the shopkeepers should alter the day within three months?
My hon. Friend had better give notice of that question.
Motor Omnibuses, London (Fatal Accidents)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the fact that thirty-seven deaths were caused by motor omnibuses in the Metropolitan area from 1st January to 16th April of this year, and that such fatal accidents show a tendency rapidly to increase, he will again impress upon the motor omnibus companies the necessity of taking immediate steps to provide some form of safety tender or other device which will reduce the number of such accidents?
My right hon. Friend is afraid that he cannot add anything to the reply he gave to my hon. Friend's question of 25th March, when he explained that the importance of providing a suitable guard had been impressed upon the companies from the outset, and certain concessions promised when one was available. I understand that the companies and others have given the matter much attention, but no satisfactory guard has yet been submitted to the police.
Do the companies admit that the accidents are rapidly increasing?
Telephone Service
asked the Postmaster-General whether he has received a request that no further telephone call offices shall be established at public houses; and, if so, what, if any, action he proposes to take in the matter?
It has been the practice of the Post Office for the last four years not to establish public telephone call offices at public houses; and that practice will continue to be followed.
Royal Navy
Obsolete Armoured Ships
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many obsolete armoured ships were sold during the financial year 1911–12; who were the buyers; and were they sold subject to being broken up in this country at ordinary trade union wages?
The following six obsolete armoured ships were sold in the financial year 1911–12, namely:— The conditions of sale were that the ships should be broken up under bond, but not necessarily in the United Kingdom. The first three ships were broken up abroad and the others in the United Kingdom. No stipulation as to wages is made in contracts for the sale of obsolete ships or other material, machinery, etc.
"Why have the ships been broken up?
They are not all broken up. We have a three-fold application. If the armoured ship is of fighting value then it is broken up in this Kingdom. If it is of less fighting value it is broken up, and the breaking up may be done abroad, but if it is of still smaller fighting value, or is a wooden ship of no fighting value at all then it may be taken anywhere. That is generally our scheme.
Return or Fleets
asked when the Dickinson (Dilke) Return of Fleets will be issued?
It is hoped to issue the "Return in the course of next month.
H.M.S. "AFRICA" (Naval Pension)
asked whether the First Lord of the Admiralty's attention had been called to the case of W. Hawes, injured on board His Majesty's ship "Africa," in January, 1908; what pension he has received per annum; whether such pension is to be continued; whether he was discharged from the Service, having been permanently injured for life, as pensioned; and what the Admiralty propose doing with the case in the future?
Hawes was invalided in 1903 after seven years' service for an injury sustained on duty, and has received over £58 in pension and gratuity. The rate and duration of naval pensions granted for injuries are dependent on length of service and the extent to which earning powers are affected by the disablement. In view of these factors as they exist in this case, Hawes cannot be granted further compensation at present, but should he become unfit for employment as a result of the injury, he would be eligible for further consideration.
Marine Insurance Company
asked how long an interval had preceded the acceptance of the Marine Insurance Company in 1906 since the time when a previous acceptance was decided upon?
The answer is six years.
Questions
Dominion Purchases from United Kingdom
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state what is the percentage of increase in total purchases from the United Kingdom by Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and the Indian Empire, respectively, and by the remaining Crown Colonies and Dependencies, collectively, from 1900 to the end of 1911; and what is the comparative total percentage increase to the same countries from all foreign countries during that period?
The exports of the produce and manufactures of the United Kingdom in 1911 to the Dominions and Possessions named showed an increase, as compared with those for 1900, of 159 per cent, to Canada, 43 per cent, to Australia, 79 per cent, to New Zealand, 67 per cent. to South Africa, 74 per cent, to India, and 47 per cent, to the remaining British Possessions. Corresponding particulars for the exports of all foreign countries collectively to those Dominions and Possessions cannot be given, and the statistics of some of the Dominions do not permit of comparative figures of Colonial imports being stated owing to changes in methods of compilation.
Is it not the fact that wherever the self-governing Dominions are granted a preference the percentage of in-increase is very much greater than in the Crown Colonies and other places?
I should like notice of that question.
Railways Bill
asked whether the President of the Board of Trade consulted the Board of Agriculture before he drafted the Railways Bill; and whether he took into consideration the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on fruit culture which reported in 1905?
I am afraid I cannot make any statement as to the Departments and other bodies and persons whom I consulted formally or otherwise in connection with the preparation of the Railways Bill. As regards the last part of the question, the principal recommendations of the Departmental Committee to which my hon. Friend refers which would require legislation related to owner's risk rates and the amendment of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1894, to facilitate temporary reductions of rates in times of glut. Both these subjects are dealt with in the Bill which I have introduced.
Will the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the extreme importance of the Bill, consult the Board of Agriculture before the Bill comes up for Second Beading?
Protection
asked if the President of the Board of Trade has given any instructions or assurances to His Majesty's consuls or representatives in Russia that this country will shortly adopt a policy of Protection?
The answer is in the negative.
Government of Ireland Bill
Ministers at Westminster for Irish Affairs
asked the Prime Minister, whether under the Government of Ireland Bill it is intended to retain Ministers in the Imperial Parliament responsible for Irish affairs; and, if so, to what number and under what description?
It will be necessary of course that some Minister of the United Kingdom Government should be responsible for matters the administration of which in Ireland will still rest with that Government. Whether there should be more than one such Minister, or what the description of that Minister should be, are matters on which I can give no answer at present.
Lord Lieutenant
asked what number of salutes the Lord Lieutenant will be entitled in the event of the Government of Ireland Bill passing into law?
I am not aware of any necessity for an alteration in the existing practice.
asked to whom, under the Government of Ireland Bill, the administration of the Irish Government will be delegated in the absence or incapacity of the Lord Lieutenant; and whether the Lord Lieutenant will have power to appoint a deputy to act in such emergencies?
In this matter no provision seems necessary beyond that contained in Clause 4 (2) of the Bill. The usual arrangements will be made on behalf of the Crown for the administration of the Irish Government in the absence of the Lord Lieutenant.
asked whether, under the Government of Ireland Bill, representations from any person in Ireland will go to the Irish Minister in the Imperial Parliament only through the Lord Lieutenant?
This is a matter of administration with which the Bill does not deal.
asked whether, under the Government of Ireland Bill, the staff of the Lord Lieutenant will be provided by the Irish Parliament or the Imperial Parliament, or will the Lord Lieutenant be expected to provide his own staff?
If the hon. Member will look at Clause 31 he will see that the salary and expenses of the Lord Lieutenant will be paid out of moneys provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, but the Irish Government will provide £5,000 a year towards his salary.
asked whether, by the provisions of the Government of Ireland Bill, the present position of the Lord Lieutenant, whereby an action against him for any official act is stayed by the Court on application without examining the colour of the act in question, is in any way affected?
There does not appear to be anything in the Bill to affect the principles upon which the Irish cases on this subject have been decided.
Second Chamber
asked if the Prime Minister will state what, if any, precedents exist for the formation of a Second Chamber by nomination of the Executive Government?
For the composition of Second Chambers in the self-governing Dominions and the method of nomination or election I would refer the hon. Member to the Return presented to the House of Commons on 30th March, 1910; and with regard to the composition of these Chambers in foreign States, to the White Paper, Misc., No. 5, 1907.
May I ask the right hon. Gentlemen whether this part of the scheme for the better government of Ireland is the outcome of negotiations with the leaders of the Nationalist party?
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us of any Dominions of the State within the British Empire where the Second Chamber is called a Senate1? [HON. MEMBERS: "Australia," "Canada."]
If the hon. Member will refer to those Papers he will find all the information there.
Representative Peers (Election)
asked whether, under the Government of Ireland Bill, that country will continue to elect representative peers to the House of Lords?
Yes, Sir.
Debate on Bill
asked if, in view of the importance of the proposals contained in the Government of Ireland Bill, and to ensure the fullest opportunity of discussion and amendment, the Prime Minister will make arrangements to obviate the undue curtailment of Debate by carrying over into next Session, when the time of the House is likely to be less fully occupied, the consideration of these Sections of the measure, delay in respect of which need not involve, under the provisions of the Parliament Act, the postponement of the coming into force of the general principles of the Bill?
I see no necessity for the suggestion made by the hon. Member.
Customs and Excise
asked whether the effect of Clause 15, Section ( d ) of the Government of Ireland Bill will be to prevent the Irish Parliament from using their powers of varying the Customs and Excise Duties so as to produce any protective effect?
Generally speaking, the answer is in the affirmative.
asked whether the effect of Clause 15, Section ( a ), of the Government of Ireland Bill will be to prevent the Irish Parliament from levying an Export Duty on linen?
The answer is in the affirmative so long as there is not an Imperial Customs Duty on linen.
Civil Service (Ireland)
asked what is the number of persons at present employed in the Civil Service in Ireland; and what proportion of these are engaged on work which would under the Government of Ireland Bill remain under the control of the Imperial Parliament?
I would refer the hon. Member to the Civil Service Estimates for details as to the number of persons employed in the various public Departments in Ireland. The number of persons who-will remain under the control of the Imperial Parliament cannot be accurately stated at this stage.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea as to information with regard to the latter part of the question?
Sometime or another I have no doubt the fact will appear. I will communicate with the hon. Member.
As the matter is rather important, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could say when the information will be given?
I cannot name any date.
Questions
Coal Mines (Minimum Wage) Act—District Boards
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to state the amount of the cost of the administration of the District Boards under the Minimum Wage Act?
I am not yet in a positions to state the sum that, may be required.
What salary is it proposed to pay the Chairman?
It will vary according to a certain scale. I would rather not make a statement at the present time. It will depend upon the length of the sitting, and so on.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state, for the convenience of the House, whether it is not necessary to have a Resolution, or an Amendment of the Act, and, if so, whether steps will be taken for a Resolution or an Amendment of the Act?
It will come before us in the form of a Supplementary Estimate.
Is not a Resolution of an Amendment of the Act as much necessary in this case as in the case of the Home Rule Bill or the Insurance Act, or any other Act where appointments are made?
This is not a case of new appointments. It is the appointment of certain persons to carry out portions of the Act. I understand a Resolution is not necessary, and in the ordinary way it will come on the Supplementary Estimates.
National Insurance Act
Unregistered Societies
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (1) whether he will take steps to see that it comes within the scope of the duties of the Insurance Commissioners to send to the secretary of each unregistered society and village club, when the list of such societies and clubs has been made, a copy of model rules for approved societies desiring to do business under the Act, and advice as to the procedure necessary to carry out the provisions of the Act for grouping; (2) whether the hon. Gentleman will see that the National Insurance Commissioners take the necessary steps to advise the secretaries of small societies as to the course they ought to pursue to prevent them from becoming extinct after the National Insurance Act comes into operation, and so prevent large organised urban societies and trade unions, who can afford expert advice, having a monopoly of national insurance business?
The Commissioners have, ever since their appoint- ment, communicated to small societies, as well as to large, any documents issued by them giving instructions as to the steps necessary for approval, and they have also published literature dealing specially with the case of small societies, which has been sent to every registered society. The Commissioners have also placed themselves in direct communication with many small societies, which, they were informed, were in danger of dissolving, and have offered advice and assistance and the services of one of their lecturers. In addition, they are organising for various rural areas (the number of which they hope to increase at an early date) a series of lectures, to be given in convenient places within each such area, specially directed to giving information on the Act to local officials of rural societies. Steps have been and are being taken at the same time to reach unregistered as well as registered societies. The Commissioners are anxious to do everything in their power to enable small societies to realise their position under the Act and will be glad to consider further suggestions on the matter from any quarter.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether those documents that have been issued do or do not include a model set of rules and advice to small societies as to what course they should take in grouping?
I think model sets of rules are being sent to every secretary.
National Health Insurance Commission
asked on what date the National Health Insurance Commission were authorised to make use of the Royal Arms at the head of the explanatory leaflets which they are issuing?
No special authority is required for the use of the Royal Arms on official publications. There is general authority for their use at the discretion of the Government Department concerned.
Is it necessary that the use of the Royal Arms should be continued, as I understand a certain amount of disappointment is occasioned to the recipients?
As I understand, the Royal Arms are used on practically every Government publication. I can give the hon. Gentleman samples of hundreds of them if he likes to see them. I do not understand why anyone should be disappointed at receiving a leaflet containing the Royal Arms.
Questions
Milk Bill
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether representations have been made to him on behalf of associations of dairy farmers that, where a servant is found to be adulterating milk without the consent or knowledge of his employer, the prosecution should be against the servant instead of the employer; and whether he will undertake to make provision to this effect in the Milk Bill?
I have received one representation to this effect. Proceedings may be taken against a servant in the circumstances described, and are so taken in some cases at the present time. I do not think it advisable to indicate at present what provisions will be inserted in the Bill.
Vaccination
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has been informed that the Bristol board of guardians have again refused to act in accordance with the suggestions of the Local Government Board with regard to the loss of income suffered by their vaccination officers in consequence of the Vaccination Act and Order, 1907; and, if so, what action, if any, does he now propose to take?
I received a letter from the guardians on the 4th inst., from which it appeared that they had negatived a motion to refuse to pay compensation to the vaccination officers. I am still in communication with the guardians on the subject.
asked the right hon. Gentleman whether, in April, 1909, he received a letter from the vaccination officer of the Bedford Union stating that the gratuity of £7 12s. 3d. that the Local Government Board had sanctioned his guardians paying to him did not make up the total amount of his loss in consequence of the Vaccination Act and Order, 1907, which at that time was £19 8s. 10d.; whether this officer has received a second gratuity of £3 14s.; whether he has received further communications from the vaccination officer of this union with regard to his further loss of income, and, if so, the dates of such communications; whether he is aware that, notwithstanding the two gratuities referred to, this officer had up to Christmas quarter, 1910, lost over £50, and in consequence of the continued increase in exemptions since then he has lost a still further amount, which has placed him in financial difficulties; and what action, if any, does he propose to take with regard to this officer's case?
I have received the letters referred to in the question. Besides the first gratuity of £7 12s. 3d. referred to, the guardians have paid the vaccination officer gratuities 6f £3 7s. and £3 15s. with my sanction, and have allowed him 30s. a year for his postages. I am in communication with the guardians on the subject, but I may observe that this official is not required to devote his whole time to his duties.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider the gratuities he has named adequate compensation in the case?
That depends on the officer's duties.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that, in consequence of the increase in the number of exemption certificates received by the vaccination officers in the Hackney Union, the loss of income sustained by one of these officers amounts to over £50, and the loss to the other £200; whether he will now consider the desirability of giving these cases special treatment; whether the Local Government Board have informed the clerk to the Hackney Board of Guardians that these officers are not entitled to be paid a fee for sending a copy of a certificate of successful vaccination of a child vaccinated in their district to the officer of the district where the child was born, the original certificate having been sent to this officer; whether the Local Government Board have received a letter from the National Vaccination Officers' Association with regard thereto, and, if so, in view of such letter, is the Local Government Board still of the same opinion; and, if so, whether, considering the importance of the question, the Local Government Board will take the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown thereon?
The two present vaccination officers in the Hackney Union were appointed in 1907, subject to a specific condition that no claim should be made by them in respect of loss of fees or other disturbance by reason of any revision of the Vaccination Acts or Orders. In the circumstances I do not consider their case as justifying special consideration. With regard to the second part of the question, I do not think it necessary to take the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown on the subject.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the appointment of infant life protection visitor was only held temporarily by Mr. Emmerson, vaccination officer of South Shields Union, from September, 1909, till March, 1911, pending the appointment of a permanent officer, and that Mr. Emmerson received a sum of about £19 as a remuneration for his services therein, and that such duties and remuneration ceased absolutely in March, 1911; that the appointment of deputy registrar of births and deaths only carries with it a remuneration of about £8 per annum, as the duties are only to be performed in the absence or illness of the registrar; that since the vaccination officer's fees were increased in 1911 the number of exemptions has increased to 839 during the year 1911 as against 777 in 1910, 565 in 1909, 334 in 1908, and 61 in 1907; and that consequently, notwithstanding the increase in his fees, the vaccination officer is still suffering a substantial loss of income although performing the same duties as were required before this change took place; and whether he proposes to take any steps to compensate the vaccination officer for the loss which is still being sustained?
I was not aware of the facts stated in the first part of the question. The figures as to the number of exemptions are, I believe, generally correct. I am making further inquiry as to the diminution in the remuneration of this officer.
asked whether, in view of the loss of income suffered by vaccination officers in consequence of the Vaccination Act and Order, 1907, and the decision of the Local Government Board not to issue a General Order with regard thereto, and the financial difficulties in which many of these vaccination officers are now placed in consequence of the increase of exemption certificates received by them, the Prime Minister will arrange an early date for the consideration of the Estimates of the Local Government Board; and, if so, what will be a convenient date for this purpose?
The suggestion of the hon. Member will be considered along with the numerous requests for the consideration of other Votes.
Suffragist Prosecution
asked the Attorney-General if the Government have offered to withdraw the prosecution for conspiracy of certain members of the Women's Social and Political Union if those members undertake to cease their militant campaign?
The answer is in the negative.
Would the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the Government have no intention of taking any such step?
They have not contemplated any such action.
Fishery Cruisers
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that trawlers engaged in fishing in prohibited areas have frequently out-distanced the fishery cruisers; and whether, in the construction of any new cruisers, the speed will be such as to enable them efficiently to carry out their duties?
I am not aware of any case in which the trawlers have out-distanced the fishery cruisers, and would ask my hon. Friend to communicate to me the information on which the allegation in the first part of the question is based. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.
Appointment of Sheriffs (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether solicitors practising in Scotland are eligible for appointments as sheriffs principal; and, if not, will he introduce legislation making them so, in view of the fact that there are so few fresh entrants to the Faculty of Advocates?
Under the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act, 1907, a law agent is made eligible for the appointment referred to provided he is a sheriff-substitute of five years' standing at least, and I am not aware that there is any demand, or need, for further legislation on this matter.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any case under the Act of any sheriff-substitute having been appointed a sheriff-principal?
The hon. Member has a question on the Paper on that particular point.
asked for how many years have solicitors practising in Scotland been eligible for appointments as sheriffs-substitute; how many solicitors have been chosen for such posts in that time; and how many in the last six years?
I am not aware that solicitors have ever been ineligible for appointment as sheriff-substitute, and as the appointment lay in the hands of the sheriff-depute until the year 1877, I am unable to give the hon. Member the number of solicitors appointed from the institution of the office till 1906. One solicitor has been appointed to the office of sheriff-substitute during the last six years.
Is it not the case that solicitors' appointments give greater satisfaction, or as great satisfaction, as the appointment of members of the Faculty of Advocates?
I certainly decline to commit myself as a mere layman to such a distinction between the two branches of the profession.
Grantham School Attendance Case
asked the President of the Board of Education, if his attention has been called to the case of Pounds, at Grantham, who has been brought before, the Court for not sending his child to school when sufficient school places are not provided; and whether he will have the matter inquired into with a view to a remedy?
I have no official information with regard to the case referred to. As the hon. Member knows, the whole question of elementary school accommodation at Grantham is under consideration and I am waiting to receive from the local education authority detailed proposals for providing further accommodation in the borough and for remedying the defects in the existing premises. The authority were informed on the 4th April that a definite reply would be expected at the latest within three weeks from that date.
Sligo Corporation Finances
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the report furnished to the Local Government Board by Mr. J. W. Drury, inspector of audits, in regard to the financial position of the Sligo corporation, has yet been brought to his notice; and will he lay a copy upon the Table of the House?
This report is a confidential document intended for the information of the Local Government Board, and it would be quite contrary to precedent to publish it.
Madras Diocese (Assistant Bishop)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for India whether the Government has agreed to the appointment of an assistant bishop to the diocese of Madras; and whether the whole or any part of the remuneration for this post will be provided out of Imperial funds?
This appointment has been recommended by the Government of India, and is at present under consideration by the Secretary of State in Council. Statements published in the Press to the effect that an assistant bishop had been appointed are unauthorised and premature. No part of the remuneration of the post, if it be sanctioned, will be provided from Government funds.
Territorial Force
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that forty-one officers and 6,703 noncommissioned officers and men absented themselves altogether without leave from camp training in 1911, he will say how many of them were punished for this breach of discipline and of what the punishments consisted; and are these officers and men still borne on the strength of the Territorial Force?
A special return has been called for from the units giving the information required.
asked the right hon. Gentleman, whether, in view of the fact that General French stated in 1910 that the Yeomanry squadrons were very much hampered during their annual training by recruits who were without the elementary knowledge necessary to fit them for the ranks, he will say whether all these recruits had done the necessary preliminary drills as laid down in the regulations for the training of the Territorial Force; and, if not, whether they were deprived of their pay, as laid down in Appendix 6, Sub-Appendix I., Training of Yeomanry?
There are no statistics available in the War Office to enable me to give the information required. I would, however, point out that under the regulations as amended by Army Order 287 of 1910 pay is admissible for recruits if they joined within three months of camp and the divisional or mounted brigade commander is satisfied that they could not be resaonably expected to have done the requisite number of drills.
Museum of Safety Appliances
asked whether any arrangements have been yet made for a museum of safety appliances in this country; and, if so, when it was opened and where it is situated?
As the hon. Member was informed last year, the Government has decided to establish such a museum, and the arrangements are now in hand. The selection of the site has taken a little time, but the offer of a suitable site in a central position in Westminster has now been accepted, and provision had been made in the Estimates for commencing the erection of the building in the course of the present year. It will necessarily be some time before the museum is ready for opening.
Wireless Telegraph Stations
asked the Postmaster-General whether he has any information as to the intention of the Australian Government to participate in the scheme for the establishment of an Imperial chain of wireless telegraphic stations?
I understand that the High Commissioner for Australia has been informed by telegraph that the Commonwealth Government, which, with the other Governments concerned, was notified of the terms of the Marconi Company's tender for the erection of the stations, prefers to make its own arrangements for the provision of a station capable of becoming an efficient part of the Imperial scheme.
Kingston, Jamaica
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that Germans have already acquired large interests and docks at Kingston, Jamaica; and that large sums of money are being spent in harbour improvements at St. Thomas, on account of the near completion of the Panama Canal; and if it is proposed to take immediate action in the establishment of British docks and a coaling station at Kingston, Jamaica, which lies within a hundred miles of the routes over which North European and American vessels will have to pass on their way to and from Colon?
If I am right in assuming that the hon. Member's question refers to commercial facilities, it should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary. As has already been stated, so far as naval interests are concerned, no immediate change of policy in the West Indies is considered necessary.
Great Northern Railway (Superannuation Fund)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he was aware that the Great Northern Railway Company was now the only one which had not carried out the recommendations of the Departmental Committee on superannuation funds in regard to permitting the members to elect a proportion of the committee of management; and what he intended to do in the matter?
I am in communication with the company on this matter, and will inform my hon. Friend of the result.
Loss of Steamship "Titanic."
Classification of Passengers
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he would state the number and proportion of first, second, and third class passengers saved from the wreck of the "Titanic"; the number of women and children of all classes who were lost; and the number of male passengers of all classes saved?
I have already promised to circulate the information with the Votes as soon as I am in a position to do so.
Boat Accommodation
I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade a question, of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether he can give the House any information as to the result of the meeting of representatives of the large passenger lines with the Board of Trade yesterday in regard to the question of the provision of boats?
As I stated to the House yesterday, the Board of Trade convened a meeting of representatives of most of the large passenger lines in order to ascertain what steps, if any, were contemplated by the companies themselves in view of the new situation created by the loss of the "Titanic." The companies inform us that they had already decided to provide on board their vessels boats and rafts sufficient to accommodate all persons on board. I understand that there will be great difficulty in obtaining suitable boats to supply the whole of the additional demand immediately, but that every effort will be made by the shipping companies to equip the vessels at the earliest possible moment. I should like to add that the above information was furnished quite voluntarily, and not as the result of any advice or representations made to the companies by the Board of Trade. The lines on whose behalf the information has been given include the Allan, American, Atlantic Transport, Bucknalls, Canadian Pacific, Cunard, Dominion, Leyland, New Zealand Shipping Company, Orient, Ked Star, Royal Mail, Shaw Savill and Albion, Thompson's Aberdeen Line, Union Castle, and White Star.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say if anything has been done with regard to the cross-Channel traffic?
That particular company was not represented yesterday, but I will communicate with them.
Is there any intention on the part of the Government to make any provisional revision of the Regulations of the Board of Trade pending the result and the decision of the Court of Inquiry?
I really do not think it would be an advantage to do so. As the House sees, the companies themselves are voluntarily undertaking considerable additional responsibility in the matter, and to attempt to act before we have more information than we have at the present moment would possibly do more harm than good. I think I had the House with me the other day in saying that we should lose no time in regard to this matter. If anything is to be done it will be done, but it had better be done after we have the fullest possible information at our disposal instead of attempting ourselves to make any provisional arrangements.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries of the railway companies?
was understood to indicate assent.
Has the right hon. Gentleman communicated with foreign lines?
I have not done so.
Were the P. & O. Company represented at the meeting yesterday?
The P. & 0. Company were not represented, but they inform me that they already provide sufficient boat accommodation for all their passengers, as indeed do some of the other lines that I have mentioned.
Established Church (Wales) Bill
May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is the intention of the Government to take the Committee stage of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill in this House?
I am afraid, in the absence of the Prime Minister, I cannot give an answer to that question.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the question will be answered?
Certainly an answer will be given before the Second Reading is taken.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not communicate with the Prime Minister and give an answer?
I think it is a very unusual question to put on the First Reading. In all my experience of this House it has never before been put on the First Beading of a Bill.
The Bill is said to be going upstairs.
Up to the present moment, the suggestion has never come from us. It is a question which is always put on the Second Beading. This is the first time it has ever been suggested that on the First Reading of a Bill the Government should communicate to the House what course they are going to take in Committee.
Is it not the case that it is for the first time suggested outside—I do not say by the Government—that a Bill of this magnitude should be sent to a Committee upstairs? That being so, is it not reasonable that we should know now what is the intention of the Government.
As far as I know at present, the only suggestion that has been made was by a paper representing the views of the right hon. Gentleman. Surely the Government are not responsible for that.
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared, on behalf of the Government, to repudiate the suggestion?
The Government are not called upon to repudiate every suggestion that may be made.
Does the right hon. Gentleman really intend us to understand that the Government do not intend to give the House any opportunity of discussing this question?
What question?
The question of what the Government intend to do with this Bill.
Certainly; an opportunity will be provided by the Orders of the House.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that the Government intend to keep it a secret until they move the Second Beading what they intend to do afterwards?
The Government will take the course that every Government has taken, of announcing on the Second Beading of the Bill the course they propose to take in Committee. Neither the Noble Lord nor anyone else has ever before asked this question before the Second Reading.
When the Government are considering their decision, will they bear in mind the pledges given by Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman when he instituted the Standing Committee that no controversial Bills would be sent up to them?
The Government will undoubtedly bear in mind every pledge that has been given.
Will they keep them?
May I ask whether, by the Standing Orders of the House, there will be any opportunity of discussing this matter if the Government propose to send the Bill to a Standing Committee? By the Orders of the House, a Bill automatically goes to a Standing Committee unless it is specially moved to refer the Bill to a Committee of the Whole House.
The hon. Gentleman can surely wait until he sees the Bill introduced. At any rate, whatever the Government do will be done in accordance with the Standing Orders.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman can tell us definitely now either that it is proposed to deal with the Bill in the usual way in this House or that he will give us information immediately as to what the intention is?
I have no doubt at all that when the Prime Minister is present he will tell the right hon. Gentleman, as soon as the Government have decided, what course they will take in regard to the Committee Stage. The decision will be taken on the Second Beading of the Bill and not before.
Privilege.—(Mr. Pointer.)
I desire to ask a question which I think affects the privileges of this House, inasmuch as it refers to a speech reflecting on the conduct of hon. Members of this House in pursuance of their Parliamentary duties. I have received this morning an account of a speech made by the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division of Sheffield (Mr. Pointer)—with whom I have communicated—at a meeting of the Croydon United Temperance Council on 15th April. The report appears in the issue of a paper on 20th April, and is to this effect:—
"One of the worst sights he had ever seen in his political life was when he was first returned to Parliament. He saw Leaders of each side drunk while an Important Debate was in progress."
I think that affects the honour of this House, and is sufficiently serious to bring to its attention. I have substantially verified what the hon. Member said from quite responsible people who were present at the meeting, and I understand that the hon. Member himself, who no doubt will say something, admits that it is not very different from what he did say. I only want to ask you, Sir, whether it is within your power in any way to protect Members of this House from such groundless and quite injurious insinuations?
Before I give any reply, I think perhaps the House would like to hear any explanation that the hon. Member would like to make.
All I desire to say in regard to this matter is that the report read is not an accurate report. Therefore I fail to see why I should be called upon to answer a charge based upon an inaccurate report.
The hon. Member for Attercliffe has denied the accuracy of the report. If the report is accurate, or any-think like correct, all I can say is that it is a very gross and offensive charge to be made. It is one which the House repudiated immediately. The House showed by the way it received the statement that it repudiates with indignation a charge of this kind, and that, indeed, it was a farcical and ludicrous charge to make. I am asked whether I can protect the House against such charges being made. I regret to say that I cannot. It is my duty to watch what is said in the House. I am afraid it is quite beyond my powers to watch what hon. Members say outside.
The hon. Member has said that the report is not correct. I do not think it is any breach of confidence to say that in the Lobby just now, when I told him that I proposed to call attention to it, he said that he was not going to run away from the charge that he had made, but that the charge was not that he had seen the two Leaders across the Table of this House, but rival Leaders in the House in this deplorable condition.
After what has occurred in the House, I think hon. Members can form their own opinion.
Bills Presented
Health Resorts and Watering Places Bill
"To empower local authorities in England and Wales to levy a rate for advertising." Presented by Sir Thomas Rob; supported by Sir Luke White, Sir John Bethell, Mr. Theodore Taylor, Mr. Herbert Meld, Mr. Alden, and Mr. Raff an; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 8th May, and to be printed. [Bill 162.]
Midwives (Scotland) Bill
"To secure the better training of Mid-wives in Scotland, and to regulate their practice." Presented by Mr. BARNES; supported by Mr. Ainsworth, Mr. Robert Harcourt, Mr. Arthur Henderson, and Mr. Duncan Millar; to be read a second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 163.]
Motor Car Act (1903) Amendment Bill
"To amend the Motor Car Act, 1903." Presented by Mr. BOWEBMAN; supported by Mr. Ramsay Macdonald, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. George Roberts, Mr. Hodge, and Mr. William Thorne; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 7th May, and to be printed. [Bill 164.]
Workmen's Compensation Act (1906)Amendment Bill
"To amend the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906." Presented by Mr. Hodge; supported by Mr. Gill, Mr. Barnes, Mr. Stephen Walsh, and Mr. Bowerman; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 7th May, and to be printed. [Bill 165.]
Workmen's Compensation (Share Fishermen)
I beg leave to ask to introduce a Bill "To bring Share Fishermen within the scope of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906."
I crave the indulgence of the House for a very few moments to introduce this Bill to amend the Act of 1906 in the interests of the fishermen of Great Britain. They have a very serious grievance inasmuch as a large number of them are left outside the provisions of that Act. Whenever a ship is lost there are certain members of the crew who have had no provision made for them under the Workmen's Compensation Act of 1906. During the passing of that Act the question of the share fishermen was raised, and they were denied the advantages of that Act. Experience proves that a large proportion of the men, especially those connected with the large ships, are not profit-sharers at all. They are not partners; they are profit-sharers in the sense of being workmen on piece-work. It therefore follows that these men should have in the eyes of the law the same rights and advantages of the provisions of the Act that any other member of the crew of the steam trawlers of Great Britain have that go to sea and carry eleven hands or more. Out of every eleven there are nine who are insured under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Two are not covered. They are the two most responsible men, the captain and the mate. Therefore they are the persons who in times of danger and risk have to take more responsibility than any other member of the crew. They feel that the House of Commons is doing them an injustice in not including them in the Act. I believe the crews of profit-sharing men, even in small boats, are not included within the meaning of the Act of 1906; and in my Bill it is so provided that they will be included. The men who are working on piecework, the captains and mates of our steam-trawlers, surely ought to have an act of justice done to them by this House: they should be admitted within the meaning and the power of that Act of 1906. The home country has been shocked by the great disaster, and it is feeling very keenly its loss. These men spend their lives on the sea, and simply ask the House of Commons to do what the House has done for other workmen. Last year there were thirty-three lives lost from ships which had on board of them share fishermen. Some were covered by the Workmen's Compensation Act. Thirteen of them were not—nine captains and four mates. They were married. They left thirteen widows and thirty-one orphaned children. I submit that with a fact like that before us if this Bill had been an Act last year everyone of those people would have been provided for. I ask the Government, as this is not a political question at all, to give a sympathetic support to this little Bill, and remedy this serious grievance for these poor men. They petitioned Parliament last year and urged that their case might be considered fairly and honestly. They are amongst the finest and most industrious men that we have in Great Britain. I appeal to the House to make this Bill law in this Session so that this great wrong to these men may be for ever removed, and they may enjoy the advantages and the blessings of the Workmen's Compensation Act.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir George Doughty, Sir Edward Beauchamp, Lord Charles Beresford, Mr. Esslemont, Sir Clement Kinloch-Cooke, Mr. Crooks, Mr. Goulding, and Captain Pirie. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 166.]
Established Church (Wales)
I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to terminate the establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and to make provision in respect of the Temporalities thereof, and for other purposes in connection with the matters aforesaid."
It is now seventeen years since for the first time this House gave a Second Reading to a Bill framed for the same purpose and substantially on the same lines as the Bill which I ask leave to introduce to-day. Three years ago a similar Bill was again read a first time. On both these occasions the measure was introduced to the House by the present Prime Minister. It is unnecessary for me to say how much the presentation of the case to-day is impaired by the absence of his great powers of exposition. I shall not attempt to cover the ground which he traversed, nor to repeat the facts and arguments which will still be fresh in the memory of those hon. Members who listened to the Debates-on those occasions. Even since 1909, however, some new facts have emerged. I shall confine myself to calling the attention of the House to such new facts and to arguments founded upon them. My task in explaining the actual provisions of the Bill will be greatly simplified by reason of the general similarity of these provisions to the Bill of 1909. I shall take care to call the particular attention of the House to those points in which the Bills differ. The House will remember that in 1906 a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into the work done by the various Churches in Wales and Monmouthshire, and their endowments. Much of the evidence given before the Commission was available to my right hon. Friend in 1909, but we have now the advantage for the first time of being able to state the facts on the authority of the Report. It was not until the year after my right hon. Friend spoke that the Commission actually reported. The investigations of the Commission into the comparative strength of the different denominations in Wales and their endowments were directed to the years 1905 and 1908. The Report gives figures as to the comparative strength of the different Churches. The Commission find that the Church of England includes within its fold approximately one-quarter —[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh."]—I may be allowed to finish my sentence—includes within its fold approximately one-quarter of the actively religious life of the Principality, and they find that, the Nonconformist bodies embrace three-quarters.
The right hon. Gentleman is misstating the facts.
The Noble Lord must allow the Home Secretary to proceed.
The Noble Lord will have ample opportunity afterwards. The Commission found that three-fourths—
They did not.
4.0 P.M.
They give the figures. The Commission give the figures showing the active members of the different religious bodies in Wales, and any person who calculates the proportions of those figures will find that one-fourth of the total represents the Church of England, and three-fourths of the total represents the Nonconformist bodies. The figures are so apparent and so clear that I am astonished the Noble Lord should contradict them. The Noble Lord did not even allow me almost to open my first six sentences. If he will allow me to go on I will explain fully to the House upon what principle the Commission acted. They adopted various criteria. There is a remarkable correspondence in the results which they obtained upon any basis of calculation. Their first test was the actual number of the communicants or avowed members of the different. Churches. Their next test was the number of school children attending the Sunday schools of the different denominations. Their third test was the amount of accommodation provided in the different Churches. From all those tests they found approximately the same result, that, the Church of England represented or included only one-quarter of the figures given upon each basis. So far as the numerical strength of the Church goes, it is established beyond dispute that the Church of England, established though it be by law, and presenting thereby a claim to be the National Church of Wales, includes only a relatively small minority of the actively religious people of Wales. But there is a circumstance in regard to the numbers which must not be overlooked. There was a time when the Church of England in Wales embraced within its fold, the whole of the Welsh people. As the Church covered the whole ground, and by reason of the very fact of its being established, it is inevitable that the nominal membership of the Church is enhanced to a very considerable degree. If we are really to have a test of the vitality and energy of the Church of England in comparison with the-Nonconformist bodies, we must compare them on a common field and under equal conditions, and I shall be able to show to the House that under such a test as that the Church of England cannot claim to embrace one-third of the religious life of Wales, and cannot even claim to embrace-one-half of one-third. The history of the county of Glamorgan affords the example which I need in order to justify the statement I have made. In 1851 the population of the county of Glamorgan was 232,000, and in 1911 that population had increased to 1,121,000. In the year 1905, the year taken by the Royal Commission, it is estimated to have been 944,000. Thus between the years 1851 and 1905 the population of Glamorgan had increased by upwards of 700,000. It is manifest that this huge addition to a population of 230,000 can only have been brought about by immigration on a great scale. There was a new population of 700,000 inhabitants, new towns and villages were built, and there was a new people for whose spiritual and religious needs accommodation had to be provided.
Here, indeed, was an open field. What happened? We have, fortunately, exact figures. All the denominations alike used their best endeavours, and there can be no question that splendid results were accomplished. Let us compare those results in the case of the Church of England and the Nonconformist bodies. In 1851 let me remind the House a religious census was undertaken by Mr. Horace Mann, and although some criticism, not ill-founded, perhaps, has been directed against that inquiry, so far as it related to the number of Churchgoers there has been no such criticism either of the fairness of spirit in which the inquiry was undertaken or as to the amount of accommodation provided in the different Churches. Mr. Mann's figures for 1851 in the latter respect are unchallenged. He divided the county into five districts—Cardiff, Merthyr, Bridgend, Swansea and Neath. The actual population included in those districts exceeded the population of the county at the time very slightly, but so slightly as to be perfectly immaterial to the argument. Mr. Mann found that the provision of accommodation in the Church of England at that date was 39,000 seats and in the Nonconformist bodies 125,000. As I have said, additional accommodation had to be provided for upwards of 700,000 new inhabitants, and what was the provision of the Church of England? The additional accommodation provided by the Church of England was 86,000 seats. The provision of the Nonconformist bodies was no less than 530,000 seats, or upwards of six times as much as the Church of England. I have the figures for only two Nonconformist denominations. The Independents provided no less than 162,000 seats, or twice as much as the Church of England, and the Calvinistic-Methodists provided 122,000 seats, or one and a-half times as much as the Church of England. Let the House look at the importance of this case. Here you have a field quite fresh and open, an opportunity for all alike, with no old establishment, no privileges, and nothing except simple, friendly rivalry between the different denominations in supplying the spiritual needs of the people. I am sure that the Church of England would have provided for its own people with the whole of its powers, but the point is that in the very best period in the life and history of the Church of England in "Wales, at a time when it is acting with a vigour and success quite unusual in its history—[Hon. Members: "Oh, oh!"]—I thought that was admitted. I am speaking of Wales only, and I thought all that was admitted. In response to the spiritual needs and requirements of their own people, the Church of England has provided only one-sixth of the accommodation which is called for by the Nonconformists. After this can anyone doubt that, if we are to have regard to the wishes, to the feelings, to the needs and to the sympathies of the Welsh people, that the Church of England has no claim to be establish in Wales as a national Church?
Let me turn to the second point. The establishment has no claim based upon the wishes of the actively religious members of Christian Churches in Wales, and, as I shall show, neither has it any claim based upon the wishes of the Welsh people as a whole. Speaking in 1909, the Prime Minister related the history of the demand by the representatives of Wales for Disestablishment ever since the extension of the franchise gave every class of the people of Wales an opportunity to express their wishes in this House. Two General Elections have taken place since my right hon. Friend spoke, and at each of them thirty-one out of thirty-four Welsh Members have been returned to this House in support of Disestablishment and Disendowment of the English Church in Wales. [An HON. Member: "No."] I think that is a remarkable phenomenon in electoral history. I do not think, except in the case of the Irish national demand, there is a parallel to be found in the whole of our history. We must not forget that in this respect there is no Ulster in Wales. As a result of eight successive elections, an overwhelming and consistent majority of Welsh Members have been sent to Parliament in support of this policy. [An HON. MEMBER: "No.""] On this matter I venture to speak with personal knowledge. I have had the honour of representing a Welsh seat for a great many years. [An HON. MEMBER: "Monmouthshire."] For the purpose of this Bill Monmouthshire is included in Wales, and, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer reminds me, it was so included in the Bill carried by hon. Gentlemen opposite relating to intermediate education.
It is often alleged, and I think with great truth, that at every election there is more than one issue before the electorate. Nobody will dispute that who has had experience of elections, and equally nobody who has any knowledge of Wales will deny that over a large number of elections there was no question which was so persistently and prominently in the minds of the electorate as Welsh Disestab- lishment. My hon. colleagues for Wales will all agree with me when I say that the principal factor in securing to us the great majorities by which most of us sit in this House is the question of Welsh Disestablishment, and if that factor were removed from Welsh politics you might, unfortunately, see a somewhat different disposition of political strength in Wales. I wonder how anybody who knows anything of Wales, or who has ever stood upon a Welsh political platform, could venture to come down to this House and deny that Welsh Disestablishment is not only a serious and prominent issue in Wales, but to take it, election after election, it has been the most prominent issue before the people? The result of the Report of the Royal Commission and the result of a long-continued series of elections, prove that so far as the great majority of those who take an active part in the religious life of the country are concerned they do not belong to the Church of England, and so far as the great majority of the people are concerned, whether they take an active part in the religious life or not, they are opposed to a continuance of the establishment. In those conditions I submit to this House, if we are to have regard in government to the wishes and sympathies of the people, that an abundantly sufficient case has been made out for this Bill. If at this moment we had a clean slate, would anybody suggest that we should establish the Church of England in Wales now for the first time 1 We have not done so in any of the modern Constitutions which we have set up in the Dominions. I would remind hon. Members that in every case in our Dominions at the time of the establishment of the Constitution there was a Church of England in existence in the country, in no case less weak than the Church of England in Wales, and yet on no single occasion has it been proposed that we should establish that Church in the Dominions. Is it, then, a sufficient argument to justify the continuance of the establishment that it in fact exists at the present time?
I do not propose to go at length into the historic argument upon this point. I must, however, .remind the House that the Church in Wales has probably had as long an existence as an independent Church, unestablished, and unconnected with the Church of England, as it has had as an established Church in partnership with the Church of England. It is pro- bably true that the Church in Wales dates from the third century. It is probably true that for eight centuries, therefore, until the beginning of the twelfth century, that the Church in Wales had no political connection with the Church of England. The connection took place for the first time in the twelfth century, and it took place by the acknowledgment of the Welsh bishops for the first time in the twelfth century of the supremacy of the see of Canterbury. It was by a political act and by political authority that the Church in Wales became part of the Church of England, and it is no more than a reversal of a political act to restore the Welsh Church to the independence it once enjoyed. I am surprised that hon. Members, who agree with most of the premises, if not all—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, not with your history."] Does the Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) dispute there was a Church in Wales before the Established Church was in existence?
I must either answer you or not. If you do not wish to be interrupted, you must not ask me questions.
The famous argument drawn from sacrilege and violation of the integrity of the Church of England amounts, then, to this: that the Church of England is not historically one integral body, including the Church in Wales. The Church of Wales had a separate existence from the Church of England. It was a long time, centuries after being in existence as a separate Church, united to the Church of England. It was united by a political act.
indicated dissent.
I prefer contemporary history to the history of the right hon. Gentleman for Dover (Mr. Wyndham), and I think on the whole Giraldus Cambrensis is a far better authority than the right hon. Gentleman. On the authority of Giraldus Cambrensis, I venture to assert the union of the two Churches was made by the power of the Crown. I think I am justified therefore in saying that to sever the tie which now binds the four Welsh dioceses to the province of Canterbury is no more than restoring to the Welsh Church the freedom it enjoyed, and cannot in the very nature of things be an act of sacrilege such as is alleged by hon. Gentlemen. It is stated, again, that to disestablish the Church would amount to a national repudiation of religion. Although that statement is made very freely outside on the platform, I notice it is not received with much approval in this House. I have never quite been able to get a clear idea what is meant by this charge of a national repudiation of religion. It has always seemed to me that the religion of the nation can be nothing less than the religion of the individuals who make up the nation, and, of course, it has not been suggested that any member of the Church of England will be less religious after disestablishment than he was before. Nobody alleges to-day that disestablishment in Ireland has had the effect of lowering the character of the religious life in that country. There are at this moment in Ireland, in Scotland, in the United States, and in our Dominions and Colonies no less than nine distinct Anglican Churches, all in communion with the Church of England, and not one of them established.
Or disendowed.
Do I understand the Noble Lord, by that interruption, to mean he does not dissent from disestablishment, providing that the endowments are not touched?
The right hon. Gentleman stated that the Churches in the Colonies were disestablished; and I simply reminded him of the fact that though they were disestablished they were not disendowed.
I am quite aware to which Churches the Noble Lord refers. Some of these Churches were at one time established and have since been disestablished. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not disendowed."] Yes, the Irish Church was disendowed. [HON. MEMBEBS: "Not the Churches in the Colonies."] Yes, in the Colonies too; in the West Indies. In all these cases we see an active working Church in existence, answering to the requirements of the members of the Church of England, in the different Dominions. These Churches are all free, but unestablished, and are we to say, therefore, with this wealth of example before our eyes of vigorous unestablished Churches, that it is the fact of establishment which constitutes in a nation the repudiation or acceptance of religion? This charge made against the Government to-day is, of course, a pure afterthought. It has never been suggested in the case of the Dominions, and it cannot be suggested with these examples before us, that disestablishment of itself could possibly lower the religious life of the country as a whole. On these grounds, I submit to the House that the case of Wales to be free from the Church establishment is so strong and so convincing, and is so much in correspondence with the wishes of the Welsh people that, whatever opinions to the contrary hon. Members representing English constituencies may have, Parliament is in justice called upon to give ear to the demand of the Welsh people, and to treat their request, at any rate, with respect.
Let me now come to the Bill. It naturally divides itself under two heads. The first relates to the political connection between the Church and State in Wales, and the second deals with its Temporalities or endowments. As regards disestablishment, the Bill follows closely the lines upon which the two Bills introduced by my right hon. Friend were drawn. On and after the 1st day of July next after the passing of the Act the four Welsh dioceses will cease to be dioceses within the province of Canterbury. All ecclesiastical corporations within those four dioceses, whether sole or aggregated, will be dissolved. All ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Wales will be abolished, and ecclesiastical law, as such, will cease to be operative. The Church thus being free of all connection with the State, the organisation of the Church is nevertheless kept in being as the subject of an implied contract between its members. Power is given to hold synods which can provide for the future government of the Church, but until such synods are held all existing law, articles, doctrines, rights, discipline, rules, and ordinances of the Church are held to be binding upon its members. I do not go into this part of the Bill at any length, because, as I have said, it is in all its essentials the same as that introduced by my right hon. Friend. Special provision is made with regard to the marriage law, by which the existing law is maintained subject to the limitation that where neither party is a member of the Church of England the solemnisation of marriage in the parish church cannot be claimed as a right. I now turn to the second head, that which deals with the disposal and allocation of the property now administered by the Church.
Plunder.
The evidence given before the Royal Commission disclosed a fact which was known before, but which had not been appreciated to its full extent. I think the public learned then for the first time how large a share of the endowments enjoyed by the Church of Wales was really drawn from English sources. According to the Report of the Commission the income from endowments of the Church in 1906 was £260,000. I propose in the figures which I shall give to this House to refer in every case to the year 1906. The figures will not be, of course, the true figures for the current year, but the principle upon which the figures for the current year will have to be dealt with will be the same as the principle I shall submit to the House. I only give the figures for 1906 because they are the figures authenticated by the Commission itself. The income then from endowments of the Church of England in Wales was £260,000 net in 1906. That was, of course, not the whole of the income of the Church. There was a further income derived from fees for services, such as christenings, marriages, and burials, and there was also an income from voluntary subscriptions amounting to £296,000. I give these figures because it has been a commonplace in Church defence oratory to allege that the Bill of 1909 deprived the Church of England of all its income except 1s. 5½d. in the £. I have seen it again and again stated that, had the Bill of 1909 become law, every parish minister would have been deprived of everything that he gets except 1s. 5½d. in the £. I am perfectly sure that no hon. Member of this House has made any such statement.
The sources from which this £260,000 has been derived are fourfold. In the first place, there are the ancient endowments appropriated to parochial benefices, the total amount of which is £116,000, and all of this I shall submit to the House may properly be regarded as national property, and, under any measure of disestablishment, ought, in future, to be appropriated to general national purposes. The next source of income is the Ecclesiastical Commission, from which the Welsh Church receives £91,000 a year. Of this amount £50,000 comes from English sources, and £41,000, the remainder, represents the value of the ancient episcopal and capitular estates in Wales. These estates, like the parochial endowments, are ancient endowments, largely consisting of tithes, and, as in the case of the other tithes, ought to be nationalised and appropriated to national purposes under any measure of disestablishment. The next source of income is from Queen Anne's Bounty. The total received from Queen Anne's Bounty was £34,000 a year net in 1906. Of this total £19,000 comes from English sources and £9,000 from Welsh sources; £6,000 a year represents the Welsh share of the Parliamentary Grants from 1809 to 1820. The fourth source of income are the modern endowments in Wales since the year 1662, the date taken in the Bill, the total of which amount to £18,500 a year. All these sums taken together make up a total net income from endowments of £260,000 a year.
The principle upon which the Bill proceeds in dealing with this total is to have regard to the origin whence the revenue is derived: £173,000 comes from ancient Welsh sources, and, as I shall submit to the House, is property which, subject to all existing life interests and freehold tenures, ought to be alienated from the Church; £18,500, modern endowments, ought, of course, immediately to be left to the Church. Those two sums taken together leave a balance out of the £260,000 of £68,600. That amount represents money which comes from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty from English sources. In the Bill it is provided that the Commissioners and the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty may, if they choose, hand the capital whence this income is derived to the disestablished Welsh Church. I have been informed it is the intention of these bodies so to dispose of the money, and, consequently, the Welsh Church on disestablishment would immediately become entitled first to £18,500 a year and then to £68,600 a year, a total of £87,000, as a minimum income. Here, again, I am compelled for the moment to call the attention of the House to what has been said about this 1s. 5½d. in the £. The figures I have given represent not 1s. 5½d., but 6s. 8d. in the £. Any such slight correction of figures as the difference between 1s. 6d. and 6s. 8d. in the£ would naturally be received, as it has been, with hilarity by hon. Gentlemen opposite. But, of course, these figures relate only to what I have described as the minimum income of the Church. That is not at all what they will have as the immediate consequence of disestablishment. We are bound to take account of life interests.
According to the provisions of the Bill, every existing incumbent will continue to receive his present stipend out of the endowments of the Church so long as he retains his office. I will deal with the particular circumstances later; I am only dealing with finance now. The effect of that is this that immediately after disestablishment the Church will continue to receive 20s. in the £. Over a long period of years, probably at least forty, that 20s. in the £ will gradually be reduced until, ultimately, at the end of perhaps forty years, it may reach the final figure of 6s. 8d. in the £. During those years the Church if it, as it will do, takes advantage of its freedom, will be able to effect such a better organisation of its resources that without in the least imperilling its spiritual work in Wales it will be able to effect economies which will leave it probably quite as well off as it is to-day. Looking at this matter merely as a matter of calculation, and in order that the House may have the exact figures, it is estimated that the value of these life interests is equivalent to £62,000 a year in perpetuity. I have already told the House that the minimum income is £87,000 a year. You have now to add the value of the life interests—£62,000 a year. I am only giving the financial equivalent of the provisions of the Bill. Add the £62,000 a year to the £87,000—
Oh, no; you cannot do that.
Add that to the value to the Church of the endowments and the provisions of the Bill amount to £149,000 a year. I have not yet done with the financial provisions, but here I must ask the attention of the House for a moment to a somewhat complicated matter. Ever since its foundation in the case of Queen Anne's Bounty, and in late years in the case of the Ecclesiastical Commission, it has been the practice of these bodies to appropriate to the service of the Church capital sums, sums by way of capital instead of by way of revenue. Let me make my meaning clear. Supposing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners have at this moment to give £1,000 to Wales. They would not give that £1,000 as revenue for the year 1912; they would credit Wales with a capital £1,000, and would pay in future years to Wales 3 per cent, upon this money out of their common fund. The average amount which has been appropriated to the Welsh Church by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in the last seven years has been £28,000 a year. The average amount appropriated by Queen Anne's Bounty has been £3,000 a year. When I gave the figures for 1906 I gave the figures of revenue. If I had given the full figures of the Church they would have been £91,000 from the Ecclesiastical Commission in the way of revenue, and a capital credit of £28,000. That capital credit in 1907 would have brought into the Church, at 3 per cent., £840, since in 1906 they received that capital credit. The same with regard to Queen Anne's Bounty. I gave the total of £34,000, but as well as the £34,000 of revenue, Queen Anne's Bounty credited Wales with a capital, taking the average as the exact figure, of £3,000.
There is a provision in the Bill that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty may continue to pay out of their common fund in the one case and the bounty fund in the other a sum of £28,000 a year from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and £3,000 a year from Queen Anne's Bounty. There is only a power to the Commissioners, and I have no assurance from them in this case, as I had in the case of the other endowments, that they will take advantage of that power and give the money to the Church, but if they do so the Welsh Church will further benefit to the extent of £31,000 a year from these English sources. If these amounts be realised and are added to the figures I have already given the total income of the Church will be £87,000 a year, together with the value of the life interests, £62,000 a year, and this further £31,000 a year from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty. The total of these figures taken together comes to £180,000 a year. I hope, with this explanation we shall have no more statements that the Welsh Church is to be robbed of everything except 1s. 5½d. in the £—a statement not made in this House, but I would remind hon. Members that there is Episcopal and even Arch-Episcopal sanction for it. I have not included in my statement certain small sums appropriated to definite purposes, such as fabrics, which would only complicate the statement, and not make any material change in the total result.
Let me deal for a moment with the reasons why the ancient endowments, which consist, of course, in the great bulk of tithes, ought to be treated as national property. They are, as I shall show to the House, in the true sense of the term a tax. I am dealing now with Welsh tithes. It is a most unfortunate incident in this controversy, that whenever any allegation is made on behalf of the Church of Wales, a reply instantly comes based upon England, and the English experience, and the Church of England in England. What are the facts as to the tithes in Wales? As we understand the term, there was no tithe in Wales down to the twelfth century. The theory with regard to tithe in England is this—I do not know whether we need necessarily accept it or reject it here, but for the purposes of discussion now, let us assume it to be true—let us assume that in the case of England the payment of tithe was preached as a duty, and that when the generality of landowners had burdened their land with the payment of tithe, which was itself a voluntary gift, the Church enforced payment, first of all under the Ecclesiastical law, and then later the Civil authority came to the aid of the Ecclesiastical authority, and enforced by Civil sanction the payment of the tithe. Accepting that theory to be true in the case of England, there at any rate there may be some foundation for the statement that the tithe originated in the voluntary payment. It was preached as a duty and was voluntarily paid. But there is no word of truth in that theory as applied to Wales. There was no tithe in Wales until after its payment was exacted in England as a matter of legal right. When the Welsh bishops first acknowledged the supremacy of Canterbury in the twelfth century, then for the first time the exaction of tithe by law became the practice in Wales. Consequently the tithe in Wales had no origin in voluntary gift. It was, as I have said, in the truest sense of the term, a tax. It was a legal impost, enforced with all the authority of the law, and I would remind the House—it is a notorious fact—that the Welsh resisted the payment of tithe, not only within our memory, but within the whole memory of history. There has been a continuous objection to it. Giraldus Cambrensis objected to the payment of tithe to what he believed to be and declared to be an alien Church.
Was he a Welshman?
Yes. It is for that reason, the tithe being truly of the nature of a tax, and being national property, that it ought to be devoted to the purposes of the whole nation. It has been appropriated to the Church of the minority. I have given reasons for thinking that the minority does not represent either the sympathies or the feelings or the wishes of the Welsh people, and if the Church be disestablished then the national property, which the Church enjoys, ought to be restored to the nation for national uses. Let me come now to the machinery of the Bill for receiving, allocating, and applying the property now administered by the Church. Two bodies are created under the Bill, or rather the Bill contemplates the creation of two bodies. The first is the Welsh Commissioners, a body which will be set up for a period of three years. It may be extended, however, to five years. The function of the Welsh Commissioners will be to receive the existing Church property, and to allocate and distribute it in accordance with the provisions of the Bill. The disestablished Church will have power to set up a Representative Body, which may be established by charter, and which will have all the powers in law of a corporation; they will be incorporated by their charter. These two bodies must be kept in view in considering the machinery of the financial parts of the Bill. The Welsh Commissioners will transfer to the Representative-Body the four cathedrals, all the Churches and chapels-of-ease, and other fabrics of the Church, and all the fabric funds.
What is their capital value?
A million. The-palaces, the deaneries, and parsonage houses, will also be transferred. The Welsh Commissioners will also transfer to the Representative Body all the glebe, but subject to the payment by the Representative Body, for so much of the glebe as consists of ancient endowments. A great part of the glebe has been purchased out of the money which I described as English money, and will be transferred to the disestablished Church by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the governors of Queen Anne's Bounty.
In what proportion?
5.0 P.M.
About half and half-About one-half represents ancient endowments and one-half modern endowments—not modern in the sense of the Bill, but modern as coming from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Queen Anne's Bounty. The Commissioners will hand over to the? Representative Body all the modern endowments, and the Representative Body are empowered to receive from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the governors of Queen Anne's Bounty so much of the endowments as spring from English sources. The residue of the property will remain, for the time being, in the hands of the Welsh Commissioners, and will be dealt with under two heads. First of all, there is the sum of £26,700 a year, which is now paid for the maintenance of the Welsh bishoprics and chapters by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. This is part of the old episcopal estates. This revenue will be handed over by the Commissioners to the University of Wales. It will be divided by the university between the colleges, the museum, and the library—that is to say, that each college will receive one-fourth of the total, and the balance will be equally divided between the museum and the library. The remainder of the income is now appropriated to parochial benefices, and will be transferred by the Commissioners to the councils of the county in which the land is situated from whence the tithe springs. The county councils
"will apply the property in the execution of schemes to be made by them and approved by the Secretary of State. "Such schemes shall be for any eleemosynary, charitable, or public purpose of local or general utility, and in framing the scheme due regard shall be had to the wants and purposes of the parish to which the property is now appropriated."
I do not suppose the Secretary of State would sanction the payment of money for the relief of rates, but the Bill does not use the words that a scheme may not apply to any object which might be the subject of rate expenditure. I wish to call special attention to the provisions relating to existing incumbents. It is proposed, in the first place, that every existing incumbent, so long as he remains in his present office, should continue to draw his present stipend. If he leaves his present office and remains in the service of the Welsh Church—that is to say, if he is moved or promoted—a process which could not take place except with his own consent—the income which he now draws from his existing benefice will be paid to the representative body. Thus the Church, as a whole, will be perfectly free in its organisation to promote any existing incumbents. There will be no pecuniary fine placed upon the Church if it wishes to transfer an existing incumbent from one benefice to another. Should any incumbents retire hereafter owing to age or infirmity, they will be entitled to receive one-third of their existing income during life—that is to say, they get the benefit of the provisions of the Act which applies to existing incumbents now. That is more generous to the incumbents than the present law.
Two-thirds goes into a national pool.
I have made no mention of the Council of Wales, which it was proposed to establish under the Bill of 1909. After much consideration, we have come to the conclusion that the duties which would fall to be discharged by this body under the present distribution of the finances would not be sufficiently important to justify its creation. The Welsh Commissioners, who are only a temporary body, will be the only new authority set up under this Bill, and all their expenses, which cannot be great, will be borne by the property which will be ultimately transferred to the Welsh University. I recommend this Bill to the House—
Is there to be no Preamble to this Bill?
As a measure which, while safeguarding the just and equitable claims of the Church, will give effect to the wishes of the Welsh people in a matter which exclusively concerns them and is very dear to their hearts and consciences. If I may make an appeal to hon. Members it would be that they would transport themselves in spirit to the hills and valleys of Wales and try to understand something of the real religious life and feeling of the Welsh people. Of all the nations who are united in our Kingdom, there is no one which gives more personal service or more freely bestows of its means in the cause of religion. Of no nation can it be said with less truth that its life and aims are governed by materialism. This is in truth a clear and definite demand springing from the national and religious feeling of a homogeneous people, and I make, with some confidence, an appeal to the representatives of the other nations in the Union for sympathy and understanding of the case of. Wales.
The right hon. Gentleman, in describing the Bill, has made it clear to the House that the principles upon which former proposed legislation was based are entirely unchanged. The Liberal party have had this Bill under consideration for nearly twenty years. There have been three great Debates, in 1894, 1895, and 1909, during which the Liberal party have founded themselves upon what they said was the bedrock of principle, but they have made, if I understand the right hon. Gentleman's speech aright, very important changes as regards the endowments of the Church in Wales. To what is that change due? We were told by the hon. Gentleman (Sir D. B. Jones) only a short time ago that the Church would have no more than the very indulgent measure which was granted to her in the previous suggested legislation. I must say that we are entitled, my hon. Friends behind me especially and those who have worked so valiantly outside, to a tribute of admiration for the indignation which their explanation of the principles of the Bill has excited in the breats of many just Nonconformists and almost every fair-minded Liberal. That change has been made because of the irrepressible indignation excited by this knowledge when it has really been brought home to the minds of men. I feel a great encouragement from it in undertaking the responsible task which has been entrusted to me. I feel that there is a remarkable commentary upon it on the present occasion. In one of the last sentences of the Home Secretary he said this was a matter exclusively Welsh. Then why is it that a procedure which I believe is without precedent has been adopted?
Will the right hon. Gentleman leave it to Wales to settle?
I will tell the hon. Member in a moment why that consideration is not open to me. I will quote great authorities on his own side to show that it is not open to us or him. We have the fact that—in a matter as regards which the Radical party is supposed to be united and which is supposed to be exclusively Welsh—this powerful Government is so afraid that it will not get even leave to introduce the Bill that, in pursuance of the spirit and the practice of the Coalition, it adjourns this Debate until it can receive the assistance of the Irish Nationalists. Enough remains of this Bill, pared down as it has been owing to the excitement, and the just excitement, of just public opinion behind it, to enable me to say, I believe with the assent of the whole of our party, that we intend to offer to it an inflexible opposition. I think it would be convenient if I notice the right hon. Gentleman's arguments—he will not take it as offensive to him when I say that in the first forty minutes there were only three arguments, and only three topics—in the order in which he presented them. I will take Disestablishment first. Disestablishment is out of the spirit of the times; it is out of date. There can be no question, notwithstanding what the right hon. Gentleman hinted at rather than stated, of any lack of fervour or zeal in the Church in Wales at present. It is true that in the past there was some slackness, as there was in almost all other spiritual organisations. But no one can possibly dispute, after the statement made by Mr. Gladstone and the statement made by the present Prime Minister, what the present condition of the Church in Wales is. This is a citation from the present Prime Minister, which binds his party, and will be questioned by no one. He said:— What is the argument of the Home Secretary? I submit that it is valueless when presented against the testimony of Mr. Gladstone and the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister. What was the solitary argument he adduced in the course of the first forty minutes of his speech? It was this. He showed that the population of Glamorganshire had increased 700,000, and that the efforts to provide spiritual organisation for that new population had been made as to five-sixths by Nonconformists and as to one-sixth only by the Church of England. Upon that he asks us to disbelieve the Prime Minister, and to say that Nonconformity is much stronger and much more vital in Wales than the Church of England. If the right hon. Gentleman will think for a moment, I cannot but believe he would see that argument to be a fallacy. It all depends whether the immigrants into Glamorganshire were Nonconformists or Churchmen. If they were Nonconformists, naturally the Nonconformist organisation would provide for their welfare, but we have not a single rag of information from the right hon. Gentleman as to what the facts were. That is the only rag of argument which he presented as showing the vitality of Nonconformity in Wales was greater than that of the Church of England.
I do think that even at this time of the Session our time is a little too precious to go back to the twelfth century. The Government's time with three gigantic Bills before them is so abundant that the right hon. Gentleman thinks it profitable to speak of Giraldus Cambrensis and the other archaic authorities in dealing with the matter before the twelfth century. I really think I will spare the House by not discussing the authorities before the twelfth century. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I have studied these matters, but I think it will be enough if our history relates only to the twelfth century and afterwards. I state on the authority of Mr. Bryce that the Church undoubtedly is the legitimate and historical successor of the Church of St. David; and that it undoubtedly existed as a living and working agency for a considerable time before Augustine. At the present moment it is recognised by the State, but it is surrounded by voluntary organisations. The reason why it is recognised by the State and why it should continue to be so recognised, is that for centuries it had no competitor. Still, notwithstanding the right hon. Gentleman's figures, with which I am in issue—still according to the Royal Commission, and according to the undisputed facts of the case as I have understood them, the Church of England is the largest of all the denominations in Wales. I admit that there was a time in the past in which the Church in Wales and in England, in common with every Church abroad, did attempt to impose her opinions by coercion upon others. For a long time any idea of ascendancy on the part of the Church has been abandoned. No coercion is ever attempted to be imposed on any conscience by the Church in Wales or elsewhere. I say with confidence that the Church has neither the power nor the wish to impose on any unwilling minds herself or her institutions. On the contrary, I claim for her the desire to rely simply upon persuasion and example for any influence which she desires to exert. It is because of this, as I think, high and noble position, that the spirit of the times has rallied to her.
In these Debates in the past we used to hear arguments raised against the organisations of the Church as being too central. We Used to hear arguments of Nonconformists in favour of their itinerant system as against the resident pastors of the Church of England, but these arguments have passed away under the influence of the spirit of the times, and it is part of the encouragement I feel that, noting this conversion of opponents—because no one has shown greater strength than the Nonconformists have in desiring to adhere to central institutions and to be maintained undivorced from those central bodies—I think the spirit of the times is drawing towards institutions such as the Church in Wales. The right hon. Gentleman did not refer to it himself, but, of course, it has been often referred to in these Debates, and I do not like to pass it over in speaking of the establishment. Many men have felt, and felt, I am sure, quite genuinely, conscious of the objection to the relation of Church with State. Men like Miall, Bright, Dr. Dale, of Birmingham, whom I shall always mention with the profoundest respect—men like these forty or fifty years ago thought that intellectual and spiritual sincerity was jeopardised by the connection of Church with State. They thought that that connection impeded the expansion and the evolution of spiritual life. They disliked the relation of Parliament, a secular body, with the discipline and order of a spiritual organisation. They especially founded their dislike upon State interference. State interference, no doubt, in those days was abhorrent to Liberals. I desire to treat these objections with respect, but I do not think that I exaggerate when I say that they are very largely extinguished at the present time. I think, if you investigate these institutions you will find that within—I daresay there was no great antecedent probability for it but if you look at the actual facts of the case and the time, you will find that within the limits of the established Church there is more liberal thought than even under voluntary organisations, that clergymen of the Church of England have shown themselves ready to fearlessly examine the criticisms of science and history, while still maintaining the essential and fundamental portions of their faith.
I do not dogmatise on this, but I quote Mr. Lecky, a very acute observer and a very liberal and advanced thinker. He speaks of the wider latitude of opinion which an established Church seldom fails to give. I say that that is in conformity with our experience, but I think when theories such as I have referred to break down in the light of the practical examination of facts the strength of the Church's position as a practical organisation is enormously increased and enhanced when we look at such a feature in her government and parochial organisation. What is the parochial organisation of the Church in Wales and in England. It places within every parish—that is to say, in every sphere of the whole of this great area—a resident pastor, bound to be resident there night and day, and bound by the sacred traditions of his office to minister to the spiritual needs of all those, whether Nonconformist or not, who chose to avail themselves of him. It has been freely accorded. It has never been denied, and both in the populous and rural districts such an organisation is of the greatest possible importance and benefit to the people. What is the inevitable result of these proposals which the Government make, and the true reality of which the Home Secretary considerably glossed over by some figures which he gave? I agree that for a time things will not be greatly altered, but I trust that this country and this House will not follow the lines of this Government, and think only of a few years hence. When these life interests die out, and they will do so in a few years, what is the inevitable result of what you are doing here? It means that you will withdraw a very substantial part from the parish of that income which now supports the pastor.
What will be the inevitable result? You will invade his time and occupy it with considerations which ought not to occupy it, considerations the necessity of which is already too greatly existent in reference to money considerations, which already are seriously oppressing him in the manifold duties which he has to perform. You propose to take away from him, a man who does not receive a larger income than many of your own servants, part of the pittance which he now receives. When that is done, as I trust in God it will no be done, he must go out, he must address his followers: and what is the topic which inevitably he will take if he is a human being? He will rehearse again and again the grievance which has imposed upon him so sorry a task. He will be obliged, setting back the spirit of unity, both in Wales and in this country, which is growing up between Nonconformists and Churchmen, to rehearse the wrong which he thinks has been done to him; and in such measure and by such means the custom of estrangement will grow up and the habit of hostility will develop—a lamentable and miserable replacement of the feeling of growing unity to which I have referred. I only say for myself and this party here that we will not be responsible for such a measure, and I sincerely pity any man who upon that bench has it upon his conscience that he is responsible for a measure which is going to have the effect of inflaming and insensing good men one against the other, men who at the present time are drawing together in greater harmony. I say nothing about the loss to the Church, because I believe that the Church will restore herself, at any rate in time, but I say that there is a loss and a great loss, to the State in Wales if you disestablish the Church there.
Examine again the spirit and custom of the times. No longer is the State merely the policeman, the judge, the tax-gatherer. She has another function. She is now, by the assent of almost all parties in this House and by the most eager encouragement and incitement of hon. Gentlemen opposite, the doctor, the schoolmaster, the regulator of wages, and, in the view of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, even the parent. Those are duties to which much of modern opinion invites the State. This seems to me, especially in a country like Wales, which is undoubtedly a religious and Christian country, an extraordinary moment to select when you are inviting the State so amply, so comprehensively, to enlarge her basis and her functions, to divorce her altogether from any connection with religion. I was greatly struck, when I was thinking of this, by an article which was written by the hon. Member for Leicester, the Leader of the Labour party. The Labour party are supposed by many men in this House and elsewhere to be averse to religion, but the hon. Member, in the article that I read, said:—
I would ask the Chancellor if he entertains that idea—and it is a most worthy idea—of the functions of the Churches, including this national established Church, whether it is not lamentable at this moment, and for such a paltry object as has been left after the scheme has been developed, to propose such a measure, and whether it is consonant with the opinions he there spoke to divorce the Church altogether from the State? By doing so, in the opinion at any rate of one of the greatest historians and scholars, a man unbiassed except by his friendship with Mr. Gladstone, who was supposed to be about to undertake this task, he would be inflicting a terrible blow on Christianity not only in England but throughout the whole of Europe. We have had no pretence of argument—I say that advisedly—from the right hon. Gentleman to justify this. In the course of my duty—and I do not for a moment regret the burden—it has been necessary to read those discussions. The right hon. Gentleman, in the way the modern statute refers to former statutes, without expressing a single argument himself, said that he was going to refer to the arguments which had been used in the past by the Prime Minister. I suppose that I am invited to answer those arguments, though they have not even been followed up by the right hon. Gentleman; but I am bound to take one argument, because I believe it to be the only argument which the Prime Minister has ever addressed to this House or ever addressed outside as a justification for this measure. He says, "There is the Irish precedent. Your party foreshadowed all sorts of disasters, and none of them ever occurred." I think that I can tear that argument into ribbons. The cases are absolutely and fundamentally different.
What was the proposal with regard to the Irish Church, and how did it arise? It arose originally from a Motion upon the state of the nation. That was the occasion on which Mr Gladstone foreshadowed the proposals of disestablishment, proposals which were to deal with a most unusual and most distressing condition of the Irish nation, and towards the production of which, and of the discontent aroused by which, the Church in Ireland was supposed to be a most substantial factor. Can anybody say that such a state of things exists in prosperous little Wales? I am quite sure that none of its representatives will. Then in Ireland the ancient religion of Roman Catholicism was firmly and indissolubly rooted in the soil. There was an unalterable cleavage—how great we need not remind ourselves after recent Debates—between Protestants in Ireland and those of the old-established religion. A religious Census in 1861, most significantly appointed, established that in 199 parishes in Ireland, containing a population of 98,000, there was not a single Protestant to be found. One-fifth of the whole population was Protestant, but only half of that consisted of members of the Church of England; so you had only one-tenth of the population members of the Anglican Church in Ireland, where you have one-third of the population in Wales members of the Anglican Church. I hesitate, in the presence of so many authorities on "Welsh history whom I see before me, but I do not think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will deny that there is a vast difference between that ancient religion, the Roman Catholic religion existent in Ireland, and Nonconformity. I wish to speak with profound respect of it, but, after all, it is only a modern growth in Wales. Griffith Jones, the founder of national education in Wales, Daniel Owens, Howell Harris, David Jones, and all those men—and they were great names in the Revivalist movement in Wales—lived and died in the Church of England. They were great missionaries of what the right hon. Gentleman opposite would call Nonconformity in Wales. One certainly—I think it was Howell Harris—when he died was buried under the altar by his own desire, and David Jones, I think, himself spoke with passionate devotion of the Church, and he lamented most profoundly the idea of separation. Very possibly, among the Joneses and others, I have got the Christian names wrong, but I am quite certain of the facts which I have stated. The endowments of the Irish Church are largely State endowments. They were the monument and result of State confiscation. It is entirely otherwise in Wales, where there are no State endowments worth referring to. As the Home Secretary mentioned, there was for a short period, at the beginning of the nineteenth century, some safeguards which all denominations shared, and which I do not think need be referred to.
Lastly, in Ireland there was a deliberate and precise submission of the case of Disestablishment and Disendowment to the electors of the country. The Under-Secretary to the Home Office (Mr. Ellis Griffith) made a speech some time ago, when he had greater freedom from responsibilty and less allegiance to his present colleagues. It was in 1906, and he complained with some bitterness that the matter had not been properly submitted to the electorate. He said, as the Home Secretary said to-day, that the question had always been before the electors of Wales, but that Wales could not give a mandate for Disestablishment; the mandate must come from the electors of Great Britain. The Under-Secretary for the Home Office knows quite well what he is talking about when he says Wales cannot give a mandate, and the question is whether the electors of Great Britain will have an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon the subject. They had in the case of Ireland. There was a General Election on the precise point. Eight candidates in Wales mentioned Disestablishment in their election addresses, and two gave a halting reference to religious equality, by which awkward questions are avoided. The numbers were even smaller in England—I think they were six and two. Therefore, this is a question upon which a Welshman, now a Member of the Government, says it is one on which a mandate must come from Great Britain. And, further, this is another question, besides Home Rule, which was never mentioned, or ventured to be mentioned by representatives of English and Scottish constituencies.
Of course, I must deal with the question of disendowment before I leave the subject. What warrant is there, what argument has been attempted, by the right hon. Gentleman for Disendowment of the Church in Wales? With the exception of the alleged precedent in Ireland, with which I trust I have sufficiently dealt, no argument has ever appeared except the dictum, unsupported by argument, that the property of the Church in Wales is national property. I observe that is not cheered by the other side. Perhaps it is abandoned. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The fallacy, if I may point it out to the hon. Gentleman, lies in confusing national property with public property. I quite accept the proposition that the property of the Church in Wales is in the legal sense public property. Just as the funds of universities and charities, bequeathed and devoted to those objects, fall under the special control and superintendence of the State, so the endowments of the Church in Wales, as a great public institution, fall under the State superintendence. Mr. Burke described Church endowments as property of which the State is not proprietor "in use or dominion," but the "guardian only and regulator." I believe that to be absolutely true. I say that the seizure, as proposed by this Bill, of the property and the endowments of the Church in Wales violates the settled principles upon which the State has always hitherto acted in dealing with public property. The principle upon which the State has acted, through the control of the Court of Chancery, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and through other bodies, in dealing with public property, has been never to interfere with it unless the purposes of the founder are obsolete, or the funds devoted to them are excessive or wasteful, or the administration of them is inefficient and extravagant. The cardinal principle which always lies behind all these doctrines is to encourage and not to discourage men in being bountiful towards public objects. The object is that the purposes of the founder should be, so far as possible, fulfilled. The result is that the policy and the law of this country have always been not to destroy endowments, but to assume their continued existence, and to secure that, as far as possible, they shall be efficacious and well established.
The second principle which has been acted upon is that of indulgence to long-continued possession of endowments. If you apply all these principles, I defy any honest man to say that the funds of the Church of England in Wales are obsolete in their purposes, excessive in their amount, or that they are extravagantly used. No one can stand up in his place in this House and contest that for a single moment. No one can deny that there has been long-continued possession which has continued for over a thousand years. Let me say a word about tithes. A most extraordinary position was taken up by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary. We are dealing with matters of some historic antiquity, but that does not prevent us altogether from applying what, after all, are permanent considerations of common sense and inherent probability. Is it likely that Wales is the only country in the world, since the days of the Old Testament, in which the preaching of Church tithe should have been wholly absent? The proposition of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary is quite true, that all over Europe, from remote times, earlier than the twelfth century, tithe was preached by the Church, and the right hon. Gentleman, without stating any authority for it, argued that by some extraordinary isolation Wales had never heard of those exhortations to piety by the early Church to which, after all, the people in those days were devotedly attached. I entirely disagree with the right hon. Gentleman, with great respect to him, and I want greater authority than his for the statement to convince me that the settled opinions and writings of great men upon this subject are wrong. The truth is, as he admitted, that in Wales, as elsewhere, tithes were paid.
On what authority do you say that?
Lord Cairns and Lord Selborne.
No.
6.0 P.M.
The fact is that unless Welshmen were absolutely divorced from or separated from the general Christian community, they paid those tithes as the result of the persuasion of the Church. Just as you have customary payments which the law recognises and enforces, so those tithes, which were paid, crystallised into custom, and were enforced by statute and common law. I pass from that to the broader aspects of the case as to those tithes. What is the position of the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends at the present moment? They say, "We will lie by for seven hundred years and permit the Church to receive those tithes which have been won for her by the persuasion and exhortation of her priests, we shall stand by for seven hundred years and allow them to enjoy those tithes which have been so won and so gained by those services; and then we are to come along and say at the end of all that time, 'Now we will seize the fruits of that service. Now, having waited all this while and having had nothing whatever to do with the raising of those tithes, we will go and seize them. "I have only one more topic with which to trouble the House, for whose patience and indulgence to me I heartily express thanks. Every consideration which I have ventured to urge to the House seems to me to be enormously fortified and strengthened, and this includes the tithes, by the long-continued and uninterrupted possession of it by the Church. There are of course other instances; there are the instances which occur in the Prescription Act, and instances which give a title to a squatter on land, to which he otherwise has no title, if he has enjoyed it without interruption for twelve years. But there is the further remarkable case of the Statute of 1844. This case is so remarkable that I ask the leave of the House to recall the circumstances. A body of Nonconformist Presbyterians, whose founders were Trinitarians, in the course of a hundred years or so, by a process of evolution, left the doctrines of the Trinitarians and become "Unitarians. Naturally, I think, some one who was acquainted with the purposes of their founders challenged their right to occupy the chapel or to enjoy the endowment which had been so founded. No doubt such an action in law would have been undefended. No one could have defended the use and enjoyment of endowments founded for that purpose when so great a change of doctrine in the community concerned had taken place. [An HON. MEMBER: "Was it a written trust?"] It was not written; I do not think it will be disputed that there was not a written trust. It was not disputed at the time that the founders themselves were Presbyterians, and it must be presumed upon every legal principle that this was a Presbyterian community.
Lord Lyndhurst, Mr. Gladstone, and Mr. Macaulay defended the Statute of 1844, which prescribed of that community, and of every other Nonconformist community in the country, that unless there was in the deed of trust written something repugnant, that the continuous enjoyment of the property of the chapel or the property of the endowment for twenty-five years would give an absolute Parliamentary title. I wish, and with all the earnestness in my power, to appeal to every honest and candid Nonconformist in this House and outside, and ask them how can they possibly maintain this extraordinary indulgence, for indulgence it is, which quiets them in their endowment and gives to them a Parliamentary title of their funds, provided they can show they have enjoyed them for only twenty-five years, and refuse recognition to the claim of the Welsh Church, which, whatever view of history you take, has enjoyed her revenues for from seven hundred to a thousand years? It is really a strange interpretation of the Christian advice to do unto your neighbours as you would have done to yourselves. I am not saying a word against that law. I heartily approve of that Statute; I would never dream, for any change in doctrines honestly arrived at, of dispossessing men of property so cherished and so hallowed as chapels and burial grounds and the like. I do not for a moment complain of that Act, but I do ask in all sincerity that the justice which is meted out to the Nonconformist bodies may, after her splendid record, be meted out to the Church of England.
I have most strenuously endeavoured in the observations which I have made, and I trust I have succeeded, not to say one single word against Nonconformity in Wales or anywhere else. I feel much too strongly that the Nonconformists, who are wrestling with many tremendous difficulties in Wales as is the Church of England, are our natural allies and not our opponents when it is a question of the maintenance and vigour of any spiritual organisation. I have earnestly endeavoured to found myself on the doctrines and on the plain old principles of religious toleration. Those principles were expressed early in the nineteenth century by a great Liberal, Sydney Smith, in language characteristic and stately in its splendour. He said the principle of toleration was to fling down no man's altar, to punish no man's prayer, to heap no pains or penalties upon those solemn supplications which in diverse languages and in temples of innumerable shapes, with one deep sense of human dependence men pour forth to God. I say that this Bill violates that principle. It selects in Wales one religious body to injure; it discriminates against one religious organisation; it punishes the prayer of one Church; it despoils the goods of one Church. It is because it does this we should fail in our duty here, when it violates those principles of which I have spoken, if we did not at the earliest possible moment and in the most emphatic manner invite the condemnation, and the emphatic condemnation, of this House.
I do not propose to follow the right hon. Gentleman at once, because I rise principally to express on behalf of the Welsh Liberal Members their gratitude to the Government for bringing in this Bill. I desire also to say that, although there has been unexpected delay in regard to the Motion for leave to introduce it, we recognise that that delay has been due to unforeseen exigencies of Parliamentary business, and not to any want of earnestness on the part of the Government in. carrying, out the pledges for a long time and on many occasions given to Welsh representatives. I listened naturally with very great attention to the clear and, as I thought, admirable and forcible speech of my right hon. Friend Mr. McKenna. I gather from what he said that the Bill which is about to be introduced is one that fulfils the expectations we have formed, and is likely to fulfil the objects that we have at heart. It is, said my right hon. Friend, generally similar to the Bill of 1909. I gather that there is a considerable rearrangement of Clauses, and that there are some important alterations. The alterations, I understand, are chiefly with regard to the re-appropriation of the funds of the dissolved corporation, the disappearance of the councils of Wales, and some enlargement of the powers of the Ecclesiastical Commission with regard to the new Church which, if the Welsh people like, may be formed under the provisions of this Bill. I naturally should wish to reserve my opinion as to the new Clauses embodying those alterations until I have seen the Clauses in print; but I feel certain that I am speaking on behalf of every Welsh Liberal or Labour Member when I say that we shall approach the consideration of those Clauses in no ungenerous spirit, and certainly not with any vindictive feeling, though at the same time we feel that the Welsh people have often been somewhat harshly treated by the rules of the Church of England ever since the distant time already referred to by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, when St. Augustine somewhat untactfully introduced a new style in approaching Ecclesiastical controversy.
I do not, having regard to the very full statement made by my right hon. Friend, propose to attempt to state all the grounds and considerations upon which we have long demanded this measure. All that I want to do is to emphasise one or two of the grounds which are most present to the minds at any rate of the Welsh people and the Welsh Members. First of all, I want to say that this is emphatically a Welsh national and political demand. We say that, judged by all ordinary tests-tests of race, language, literature, our particular history, and our social and political aspirations—we are entitled to be deemed a nationality or a nation in the same sense in which Scotland and Ireland may be so described. We infer from this proposition that in regard to many matters of legislation and administration, not, of course, in regard to foreign affairs, or the defence of the Empire, or general taxation, but in regard to domestic matters, we are entitled to manage our own concerns. We say that this is emphatically true of matters touching conscience and the right to final judgment in regard to religious affairs. I am very glad indeed to see that, although the Archbishop of Canterbury does not admit the propriety of using the term "nationality" in this connection, he said at Carnarvon, yesterday, that— authorities is matter of common knowledge. I think it was in substance admitted by the right hon. Member (Mr. A. Lyttelton). If there is any doubt about it I would ask any Member interested in the matter to refer, as a contemporary witness, to a book called " A View of Religion in the Diocese of St. David's," published by Dr. Erasmus Saunders in 1721, If anyone would like further details as to the exact way in which Church affairs were managed in Wales in the eighteenth century, I would refer him to Mr. Johne's "Causes of Dissent in Wales." There were many other evils upon which I do not propose to enlarge—evils of pluralism, absenteeism, and much maladministration and misuse of Church funds—which, no doubt, contributed to the state of things which I have described as spiritual destitution. I may sum up the whole state of affairs during a very considerable period by quoting the words in which the Dean of Bangor, at the Church Congress in 1879, summed up the whole matter. He said:— members of the voluntary Churches, founded under their auspices, that the present satisfactory condition of Wales in regard to religion is mainly due.
The next point to which I wished to refer was the existing condition of things. in the Principality, but my right hon. Friend has already done that, and has; given, upon the authority of the Welsh Church Commission, the effect of the statistics bearing upon that point. I may remind the House that the total number of communicants of the Church of England, according to the showing of Church of England witnesses themselves, giving evidence upon their own terms, did not amount, in the year 1905–6, to more than 193,000—that is to say, the Established Church, as the result of work extending, as right hon. and hon. Members opposite are proud of saying, from the third century, can only boast of communicants-amounting to one-tenth of the population of Wales. That is a fact that may be regretted or may be a matter of surprise: that depends very largely upon one's individual opinion. But if one fairly considers that against those 193,000 communicants of the Church of England giving the only final and absolute proof of their adherence to Church doctrines, there are no fewer than nearly 550,000 members of these voluntary Churches, nearly all of them started since that time of spiritual destitution to which I have referred—
They are not communicants.
Yes, all members. I am glad that interruption has been made, because there is evidently some misconception as to the meaning of these figures in the Report of the Welsh Church Commission. One of the points in the terms of reference to that Commission is the determination of the extent to which the people of Wales avail themselves of the spiritual provision made by the Churches of the various denominations. The Commission therefore had in fact to consider how they could best answer that question. Various methods were suggested. We at one time thought of a census; but we found that it was practically impossible to agree upon the basis upon which the census should be taken having regard to the terms of reference. We thought of trying to have a test Sunday, counting the number of persons who might be present at the services; or of agreeing upon certain towns or parishes as being test towns or parishes. But we bad to give up all these ideas of estimating the prevailing proportions of adherents to the different communions in Wales, owing to their impracticability, or owing to the fact that if we succeeded in taking the census on any one of those bases nobody would be satisfied with it, and the result would not be worth the pains to which we put ourselves. There was only one thing we could do. We found that the administration of the Communion in all the denominations in Wales with which we had to deal was the best and universally accepted test as to whether a man was a bonâ fide member or adherent of a particular community. That being so, we began to get evidence upon membership. But here again there was a difficulty, because, as the Chairman pointed out, every baptised person—or, according to strict law, every British subject born in England or Wales—is a member by law of the Church of England. It was therefore useless in forming statistics of Church membership to take the names of members of the Church of England in the parish. That would have been meaningless, because if it were done strictly according to law it would gave meant returning all the resident parishioners, whether Nonconformists or not. Therefore, we unfortunately had to adopt one name for the boâ fide members, If I may so call them, of one denomination, and another term for the other denominations. In regard to the Church evidence we determined that we would use the word "communicant," meaning a person who bad communicated once, at any rate, in the year 1905. In regard to the other religious denominations we used the word "member," and not the word "communicant," because, if anything, the word "member" was a stricter test. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, we found that in the four greater denominations the terms used to signify effective adherence was the term "member." It is a condition of membership not only that a profession of faith should be made before the candidate for membership becomes a member, but that if communion is not taken a sufficient number of times every year, the man is not a member.
Can the hon. Gentleman give me the reference in the Commission Report to that definition of the word "member"?
The evidence was taken over a course of some two or three years, and is contained in two or three books. I cannot give the hon. Member the exact evidence on the point now, but I can refer him to the Report, where, I think, in paragraphs on pages 20 or 21 he will find the whole matter explained in the sense in which I have given it. Again, I would like in respect to the value of these statistics to say, though I accept the figure of 193,000 for the purposes of my argument and accept it as being the result of the evidence given before the Commission, it should be pointed out that 193,000 is founded upon what we call ad hoe evidence, that is to say, evidence collected by witnesses for the Church, and on an admirable system for the purposes of the Commission; whereas the evidence upon which the number of members of Congregational and other Churches is founded is based upon the books which were in existence and were used by those bodies before the Commission. This latter, it was pointed out might be looked upon as evidence arising in the ordinary course of events. I pass from that state of things to refer here to the existing relation between the various Christian denominations in the Principality as a strong point in favour of this measure which is now before us. It is quite unnecessary for me to take up time by referring to the present composition of the present Parliament upon this question. Ever since 1885 everybody knows that a preponderatingly large majority of Members have been pledged to a measure for the Disestablishment and the Disendowment of the Church in Wales.
In 1906 all the Liberal and Labour Members from the thirty-four constituencies in Wales and Monmouthshire were pledged to Disestablishment and Disendowment. In 1909, on the First Reading of the Bill, twenty-six out of the thirty-four Members voted for it, and one only voted against it. When comment is made upon the fact that some Members from Wales did not mention this topic in their election addresses, it should be borne in mind that within a few months—the personnel having changed very little indeed—most of them had already given proof of their opinion upon the matter by recording a vote in favour of the Prime Minister's Bill. I will not dwell further upon that, but taking into account the points of consideration which I have named, I venture to submit that, under all these circumstances, it is a gross practical injustice that the law should confer upon the clergy of the Church of England special rights and privileges, and that even the benefits of endowment which were intended to form a collective spiritual provision for the whole Welsh people should be monopolised by a small minority. I do not propose to deal further with the question of Disestablishment, but I would like to say a word or two on the topic of Disendowment, which, if I may judge by the speech of right hon. Gentlemen opposite, will be the chief topic of controversy in regard to this measure. Before explaining my views—for what they are worth—I should like to refer to something which was said by the right hon. Gentleman about tithes. In his observations about tithes, which, I think, he derived from that great lawyer Lord Selborne more particularly—
Among others.
I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that the whole of the evidence upon which Lord Selborne formed his opinion is derived from what I may call Catholic sources, that is to say, sources of a clerical kind, monastic records, treatises, decretals, and so forth, which came into being, not only after the Catholic Church was—as I take it definitely—founded at the Council of Nicæa in 325, but after the Papacy—rightly or wrongly is quite irrelevant to my purpose—had made claim to a kind of primacy or headship over the vast organisation spreading throughout the whole of Western Europe. May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the origin of the Christianity in Wales has no visible, historical connection with the origin of that Catholic Church, and the Mission of St. Augustine. So far as we can tell, the records are extremely scanty. There was Christianity in the time of the Roman occupation, which, for practical purposes, terminated about 410. Very soon after that the British bishops attended a Council at, I think, Aries, in the South of France.
As far as I can make out, there was a period of great confusion between the years of the Council of Aries and the time that St. Augustine came to these shores in 597. There appears to have been no connection proved by universally accepted documents between Rome and the British bishops. In fact, a peculiar kind of Christianity, a Celtic Christianity, developed. After St. Augustine came, one of the first things he did, after he secured a foothold in the island, was to meet the British bishops. It was found that the differences between them and his communion was such that they parted, I am afraid, on not very good terms. Up to that time I defy anybody to show any clear proof that in this Celtic system of Christianity there was any payment of tithes. There is another reason, I think, that that could not have been so. I do not know that the thing is very important, but there is another point about it, and that was that this Celtic Christianity was not an episcopal but a monastic Christianity. If hon. Members will exercise their imagination and recollect what they know and what they have learnt as to monasteries and so forth, they will understand that the glebe was such that the imposition of tithes upon other people was neither necessary nor possible. One other thing, which is important. The Welsh laws were collected in the twelfth century—perhaps it is more right to call them customs. I have been over these manuscript laws and I have been unable to find in them any statement that tithe was one of the obligations or customary duties payable from the land. That will apply in the twelfth century. Certainly to some considerable area of the Principality. Really, with all deference to those right hon. Gentlemen who raise this point about tithes, I would ask is it material? What is the position? Take the exact words of the Report: Does it not say that the origin of tithe rent charge is wrapped in obscurity; that certain species of property, hereditaments, and so forth, that certain glebe lands, have from time out of mind been appropriated for the maintenance of the bishops and other ecclesiastical dignitaries? That proposition is accepted? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We are therefore dealing only with the income which from time immemorial—is the word accepted?—has been applied to the maintenance of certain corporate officers who were charged with the performance of public duties!
Of a religious kind.
But of religious duties towards whom? Towards members of the public. Not for their own benefit, not for the salvation of their own souls, or the contemplation of their own beatitudes, but for the purposes of the community. I therefore deduce from that that the property that this Bill is going to deal with, the tithe rent charge and the glebe land charge, along with the other sources of income for public corporate officers, is a spiritual provision for the whole Welsh nation. Is that a fact? [Hon. Members: "Yes."]
The Council is not making spiritual provision?
I say this tithe rent charge and glebe land charge which is going to be dealt with by this Bill is spiritual provision made long ago for the whole of the Welsh people. If that be so, there are ample precedents, whether you call it national property or whether you do not call it national property, for dealing with such funds. The whole of the legislation with regard to endowed schools, in regard to public charitable trusts, is founded upon the notion that where you have property vested in corporate bodies, not for the private profit of any person, but for the discharge of some public duty of general utility, this House may, without injustice, step in in order to convert it to the best possible use, notwithstanding that the original pious founder may have in his day and generation intended the application in other ways. I have heard people say that they are in favour of Disestablishment but not in favour of Disendowment, but that position is not tenable. Disestablishment necessarily involves Disendowment because it means the dissolution of the corporation in which the funds that we propose to deal with are vested. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because the dissolved corporation ceases to exist. An hon. Member asks why? Why, when a man is dead, does he not enjoy his property? Once you agree with the principle of Disestablishment and agree with the dissolution of this corporation—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."]—I know you do not, but I am arguing upon that basis and once you agree to Disestablishment, which means the dissolution of this corporation, then, unless there is a general resumption by the Crown, some provision must be made by this Act of Parliament to further deal with these funds. What you are dealing with therefore is the reappropriation of the funds of the dissolved corporation. How are we to deal with it? We might first of all take away the whole of this property and use it for general public purposes. We all think—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no"]—surely all hon. Members opposite think that that would be an inequitable thing to do. But as a matter of principle, so far as the endowments are old, there is in equity a case, as a portion of the property of this dissolved corporation is property upon which great sums of money have been spent by avowed adherents of the Church of England during the course of years. I refer to Cathedrals and the fabric of Parish Churches. Nobody thinks of taking all the property. But it is said that it may be allowed to be applied to the same uses. That I think would be equally inequitable. We are dealing with the reappropriation of trust funds. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lyttelton) exhibited great learning in regard to Chancery matters. I think he will agree with me in this, that if you are going to make a new scheme in regard to trust funds the first thing you have to ask is who are the beneficiaries? Who are the beneficiaries in this ease? Let us take a parish. Who are the beneficiaries in the case of a parish? Is it really supposed that the only people who are partakers in the rights in this property, this parochial property that we are going to deal with, are those who are communicants of the Church of England. Is that asserted? [An HON. MEMBER: "No answer."] It is not asserted. I am sure my hon. and learned Friend opposite will agree—that the mere fact that a man is not confirmed, or is not ready and willing to be confirmed, or habitually takes no advantage of the pains and penalties of Ecclesiastical Courts, or even the fact that he has the audacity to be a member of a Baptist Church, does not take away a single right which that parishioner has in regard to baptism, or marriage, or burial, against the trust.
What we are doing is that we are putting an end to the corporation soul called the parson of the parish. We do not require, the great majority of those people do not require, any such officer, and in getting rid of the officer, and having to deal with the income, surely there is nothing unfair on the part of the legislature in saying that in the reappropriation of these funds some portion should be devoted to general public purposes in the parish? It is not as. though Nonconformists in Wales were taking away money from the Church in order to add it to their own revenues for the purpose of their own maintenance. We are not asking that those funds should be applied in any selfish purpose or to any Nonconformist purpose of any kind. We are applying them to purposes of a general character, in which members of the Church and the people of Wales who are Nonconformists will equally participate. I do not want to labour the point further. I think I have made my position perfectly clear. The use of the word "national," as applied to this property, has been touched upon. Notwithstanding what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I still contend that this property may properly be described as "national." No property is vested in the nation because the nation is not a corporation, just as no property is vested in the Church as a whole, because the Church is not a corporation. But the mere fact that technically property is vested in a trustee or corporate body does not make it improper to refer to the property as being national. Is the British Museum less national, is it less a national possession or national property, because its fabric and collection are vested in trustees?
It is on the Consolidated Fund.
No. I am talking of the property. The site and fabric are vested in the trustees. I will take another illustration—Oxford University. The property of that university is vested in itself as a corporation, and strictly speaking it is not national; but does anyone complain of saying that it is national property? [An HON. MEMBER: "Certainly."] At any rate, let me put the argument thus: The question whether it is "national" or not is simply a question of whether it is proper or not to use a particular adjective. We say that the word "national" is a correct word to apply to this property. That is denied; but it is not denied that this property is vested in a public corporation for public purposes, and therefore, coming within the principles to which I have already referred. I have spoken longer than I intended, and I do not on this occasion propose to deal further with the points which are made about our application of this property; but there is one point which I should like to make before ending my remarks; and it is this. It is sometimes said, in interruptions and interjections, in the course of this Debate, that we are taking money which is devoted to religious uses and applying it to secular uses. Well, now, that does not appal me at all. Of course, that may shock some Members opposite; but supposing that one does think that it would be wrong, totally, to divert funds from religious purposes to secular purposes, I would say, we are applying these funds, it is true, not to purposes connected directly with Divine Worship and the administration of the Sacraments, but we are applying them to purposes which have been, over and over again, recognised as spiritual and ecclesiastical. I am not going to labour the point. There is something about hospitals. If anybody cares to take the trouble to refer to the fourth Report of the original Ecclesiastical Commissioners he will find a reference there to hospitals which are denned by the Commission as spiritual provision, and there is legislation on the Statute books in reference to that.
The case nearest in point is the case of Chantries, which were dealt with by the Act of Edward VI. Chantries were foundations, chapels or foundations, which were maintained for the purpose of saying masses for the souls of the departed founders. That is sufficient definition for my present purpose. Rightly or wrongly, the Reformers of that time thought that prayers for the departed were wrong, and something had got to be done in the Reformed Church with those ancient foundations and accordingly the matter was dealt with by Statute. In the Preamble—Preambles are very often useful—after some remarks upon the doctrine of Purgatory and masses for the departed, of a somewhat violent character, it is recited that,
I venture to think there is one observation which must have occurred to almost every hon. Member in this House who has listened to the Debate, and it is this. We have had two fairly long and elaborate speeches from supporters of this Bill, one from the Minister in charge and the other from the hon. Member who has just spoken. Neither one nor the other has pointed out, excepting in a concluding sentence of the hon. Member's speech, one single advantage or benefit that any single soul in the three countries is going to derive from the Bill. The hon. Member began his speech with some rather obscure grievance against St. Augustine. I do not propose to follow him into that matter. He went on to say that his next ground for supporting the Bill was that Wales was a nationality and was entitled to manage its own affairs. I observe that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a letter which he wrote to a meeting in the Queen's Hall, said very much the same thing. He said:—
The right hon. Gentleman is a supporter of the Government of Ireland Bill, which provides that the Irish nation is not to have any power whatever over determining its own religion, but that is a matter for the right hon. Gentleman and his supporters to settle. The mistake which hon. Gentlemen opposite make is that they insist upon regarding this Bill as one affecting Wales, and Wales only, but that is untrue, because it affects England as well, and every member of the English Church has a right to be heard in protest against this Bill, because it is interfering with the Church to which he belongs and its usefulness in a portion of His Majesty's Dominions. The sole argument put forward by the right hon. Gentleman, apart from the historical part, which was not altogether correct, was wholly the argument of numbers. He said that the religious-minded Welsh people were, by a large majority, in favour of this Bill, and that all the rest of them by a still larger majority had come to the same conclusion. I should feel much more confidence in that assertion if those who made it did not always resist the only satisfactory means of testing the truth of their assertion, namely, by having a religious census. Why on earth are they afraid of a religious census?
The hon. Member described the great difficulty the Commission experience in arriving at trustworthy figures, and anyone who has examined the evidence must agree that the difficulty is enormous. Evidence was given, for example, as to the number of sittings in a chapel, and on one occasion they tried to bring in the chairs, in the waiting-room of a railway station. At any rate, the evidence in this respect was of the most fantastic description. The difficulty, too, of ascertaining exactly what a member means, and how far he is comparable with the communicants of the Church of England is exceedingly great. I am not going into details on this point, because the question of numbers is not really a vital matter. I do not think the question of the Disestablishment of the Church of Wales is going to depend on whether the communicants of the Church of England are 193,000 or 200,000, or whether the numbers of the Wesleyans or the Baptist Churches are 170,000, 160,000, 140,000 or any other number. That is not the point. The real question is whether the Disestablishment of the Welsh Church is going to be any advantage to anybody in Wales. I am quite aware that the argument is often used—I do think it has been put forward in this House, and perhaps it would not be consistent for those in favour of this Bill to put the argument forward—that the actual effect of this Bill will not be very large. It will involve the deprivation of the other House of Parliament of four Welsh Bishops, not a very disastrous measure. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh."] I cannot understand why anyone should wish to sit in the House of Lords now. Another thing involved is that there will be some alteration of the patronage in Wales. That is the actual direct and practical effect of this measure.
The Home Secretary told us that this was going to be a great measure of liberation for the Church in Wales. On that matter I think the Church in Wales might be allowed to judge for herself. When the right hon. Gentleman came to explain the provisions of the Bill, what did his explanation amount to? He said we are going to abolish the Ecclesiastical Courts and the ecclesiastical laws, and that we are going to re-establish them as an implied contrast between the clergymen in Wales and the general body of the Church. What does that mean? I suppose the Prayer Book and the other formularies of the Church will still be within the terms of the contract, and if there happened to be I any dispute with regard to them, who can decide? The Courts of Law? The only thing you will have done will be to destroy the Ecclesiastical Courts which are the Courts of the Church itself, and you will substitute for these the State Courts, and why that should be called the liberation of the Church, passes my comprehension. But the actual direct effect is not quite the most important aspect, but it is the declaration of the principle. Supposing the Bill follows, as I understand it does, the precedent of 1909, then the first Clause declares that the Church shall cease to be established. That is the thing that is most vital; and what does that mean?
We are to lay down by a statutory declaration that there shall be in future no connection between the State as the State and religion. That is the point. Therefore, this is a purely destructive measure. It is not as if you were going to say, "We do not think the Church of England properly represents religion in Wales; we are therefore going to have some system passed embracing all the religious bodies in Wales." I could understand that and I should have great sympathy with it. When the House of Lords is reformed to some semblance of vitality I shall be glad to see representatives of all denominations, as well as Bishops, in the House of Lords; but is it desirable to lay down that there shall be no connection between the State as such and religion? That is the real question. I say it is very undesirable. The right hon. Gentleman asks what is the religion of the State except the religion of the individuals who compose it? That seems to me that, if the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to say so, individualism run mad. Is it merely to be said at this time of day that the State has no existence, no entity, no corporate life apart from the individuals that compose it? There is no hon. Member of this House, wherever he sits—whether on the Labour Benches and flirts with Socialism, or whether he is a most rigid Tory, like my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London—who will say it is right to assert that there is no such thing as the corporate life of the State apart from the individuals who compose it. When you consider the vast importance of this corporate life; its enormous extent and its enormous powers, and how it has spread, not only in States, but in Colonies, Churches, professions, trades, and in every direction, to say that you can absolutely disregard it, and say that there is no such thing as this corporate life, and that religion is merely the religion of the individuals who compose it, does seem to me to be setting back the clock of modern thought some fifty or sixty years.
For my part, I reject that view altogether, and there was a time when the Liberal party would have rejected it strenuously. We all remember the eloquence of the late Mr. Gladstone, who used to declaim against our foreign policy not being in accord with national policy. We remember his eloquence in which he denied that you could treat national policy differently from individual policy, and in which he said that the same moral laws, applied to both. If that is true, then undoubtedly you cannot divorce religion from the State as such without doing the State an immense injury. The only real answer to that argument that I can see is that religion is considered to be relatively unimportant, if you take the view of religion set forward by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, who defines it as including museums, colleges, and things, of that kind. I do not take that view, and I do not think the hon. Member himself really believes it, and he only says it because it is the kind of thing hon. Members opposite say. No one really believes that that is what religion means. No one believes that that is what has produced the effect which religion has produced. If you believe religion is of importance, and a reality, and a most important thing that actually exists, I say you cannot divorce your national life from religion, and the only object of this Bill is to attempt to do that.
I may be told that this is all theory and that it is not really the actual fact. I will explain why I think it is serious in principle. The only reason, in my opinion, why it is proposed is to bolster up disendowment. We have heard what the disendowment proposals of this Bill are. The right hon. Gentleman proposes to take various funds from the Church, and he was-very angry indeed when we said it would only leave 1s. 5½d. in the £ of the average endowment of the Church in Wales. The right hon. Gentleman explained that by saying that it will not be 1s. 5½d., but 6s. 8d. I do not know whether he gave that mystic figure because of his connection with a certain profession, but what does it really come to? The difference-between 1s. 5½d. and 6s. 8d. depends entirely on the good will of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Commissioners of Queen Anne's Bounty. As I understand the right hon. Gentleman, there is no legal obligation to go on paying that sum to the Church of Wales, for they may do so or they may not. I know the right hon. Gentleman spoke of this as a great act of generosity. For some mysterious reason he regarded 1s. 5½d. in the £ as all the Church was really entitled to, and everything else he regarded as a kind of gift due to the exceptional generosity of the present Government. We heard that this, that, and the other was granted by the Bill. But the right hon. Gentleman forgets that it is the Bill that is taking away the property of the Church, and the question is not how much the Bill grants to the Church, but how much the Bill leaves to the Church. I say quite frankly that I cannot see any reason why the Church should be grateful. I cannot see any distinction between the property held by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners from English sources and property held by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners from Welsh sources, and if it is right to take the property from Welsh sources, it is equally right to take it from English sources, and I see no distinction between the two. Nor do I see any distinction between the grants generally by these bodies and any other endowments belonging to the Church in Wales. I do not believe there is any distinction that can be pointed out. The truth is that this concession has been made, not to justice but to fear, and I think I am speaking for those with whom I am in agreement on this question, when I say that this attempt to buy off opposition will fail, because our principles in this matter are not the same. I should like to be allowed to say a few words as to the general principle of disendowment. The right hon. Gentleman at the Queen's Hall said that so far as the property was adminstered by the Church in Wales it was national, and it was only administered by her in virtue of being established. Disendowment, he said, must follow Disestablishment. He repeated very much the same thing this afternoon. That involves two propositions: first, that the endowments are national property, and, secondly, that they are administered by the Church in virtue of its establishment. I believe both propositions are profoundly untrue. I do not understand why hon. Members should talk about endowments being national property. I cannot imagine why they should do it except to confuse the issue. What do you mean by "national property?" Do you mean either property now owned by the nation or property which has been at some past time owned by the nation? Is there any single soul in this House who will get up and say any one of the endowments of the Church was ever the property of the nation in that sense or was ever owned by the nation? It is notorious that never £1 or acre of land or tithe was owned by the nation. Nobody will say so, not even the most extreme Welsh Disestablisher I see opposite. If that is so, what is exactly meant? The right hon. Gentleman went on to say, in that same speech, that he meant it was property derived from ancient endowments and Parliamentary Grants. We have since ascertained the Parliamentary Grants only account for £6,000 a year, and even that, the right hon. Gentleman must recollect, must be set off against a sum quite as large—I think larger—which has been granted to the Nonconformists.
In Wales? No.
I think the right hon. Gentleman will find I am right. I have not the figures before me, and, if the right hon. Gentleman tells me they are not so large, be it so. There is, at any rate, a Grant which stands on the same footing legally and constitutionally as the Grants to the Church. Then, as to the doctrine that these were ancient endowments, the right hon. Gentleman says they were mainly tithes which were the creation of law—this is the way the argument goes—and therefore they were—he repeated it very elaborately—a tax. I ventured with my Noble Friend Lord Selborne to write a letter to the paper asking the right hon. Gentleman to say to what law he referred. We received no reply. The same question was repeated in the other House, and Lord Crewe, with less prudence perhaps than the right hon. Gentleman showed, ventured to quote two Statutes, which, he said, made tithes legally payable in Wales. What does the House think those Statutes were? One was a Statute, the Submission of the Clergy of Henry VIII., and the other was a Statute dealing with the government of Wales. The only reference to tithes in either of those Statutes is one which prohibits appeals on the subject of tithes being taken to Rome. I have the report in my hands, if the right hon. Gentleman ventures to contradict me:—
"The Marquess of Crewe said the Church in Wales had its share of the money appropriated by Votes of the House of Commons to Queen Anne's Bounty, and it was these Votes the Home Secretary had in his mind when he spoke of Parliamentary Grants. The two Acts of Henry VIII. to which he had referred were 25, chap. 19, and 27, chap. 26."
I did not refer to any Acts. [HON MEMBERS: "Lord Crewe."] Lord Crewe was not referring to my reply. I did not refer in my speech to any Acts. There is other law than Statute Law; there is the Common Law.
"The Noble Viscount asked me to give the reference."
This was all in reference to the right hon. Gentleman's speech.
I did not state in my speech anything whatever about Statute Law. I said it was "the creation of law"; but there is law other than Statute Law; there is the Common Law.
Either the right hon. Gentleman is a colleague of Lord Crewe or he is not. If he tells me Lord Crewe has resigned and he is no longer responsible for anything Lord Crewe said, I shall drop the subject. What happened then? The question was raised as to what the right hon. Gentleman meant by "the creation of law." He was asked, and he did not reply. The matter was raised in the House of Lords, and the Government were asked what he meant. That was the whole purpose of the discussion. Lord Crewe replied by a reference to these two Acts of Parliament. He showed the astonishing way in which the Government had approached this very serious subject. I quite agree the right hon. Gentleman has never referred to any statute. His proposition is an entirely different one. He said there was no tithe in Wales down to the twelfth century; and then it was enforced by law. As a matter of fact, I think the right hon. Gentleman is inaccurate. He will find, if he looks, there are grants in existence now granting tithes in the early part of the twelfth century.
That was what I said.
Not that it was a grant enforced by law, but an actual grant. It was a gentleman who owned property at a place called—
There, again, the Noble Lord is wrong.
It is all very well to say "again," but so far I have been absolutely right. It is a grant by deed of the early part of the twelfth century by William Reynolds, and it appears to me to be a grant of tithe.
No, no.
Then what is it?
That was not a grant of tithe. Tithe at that time was not appropriated to particular Churches. That was an appropriation of an existing tithe to a. particular Church. It was an existing tithe, and had its origin only in the connection between the Welsh and the English Church.
I do not think these antiquarian cases are very important, but still, as the right hon. Gentleman challenged me, I must say I do not understand who William Reynolds should be who should grant tithes out of his estate if that tithe had already existed, and was therefore in the disposition of the ecclesiastical authorities, and no longer in the disposition of the private individuals. I do not myself believe there is any real dispute. I rather agree with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir Brynmor Jones) that the origin in these matters is exceedingly difficult to trace, and it is really enough to say the property has been appropriated from time immemorial to corporate officers charged with the spiritual welfare of the people in Wales. My own view is that the true facts as to tithe are simple enough. It was a pious custom which became universal, or almost universal, and it was then enforced by law as any other custom had been enforced previously. I am prepared, however, to put this, test question to the Government, if they are so confident that is wrong. Will they exclude from their Bill all endowments except those derived by Grant from the State? Will they do that? That is a perfectly fair test. If these are grants by private persons, collected as every other grant is collected and enforced by the State, then the right hon. Gentleman's flimsy foundation for asserting this is national property is absolutely gone. If they were Grants by the State, let him state so in his Bill. Of course they were not. They include not only tithes but glebe. He is not going to say glebe was ever national property, or a tax, or anything of the kind. What justification has he for including glebes? He admits that at least half of it is ancient glebe. What possible justification has he for including that, except that the Church has enjoyed it for a long time. I say that is a test of the justice and fairness of the principle upon which this Bill proceeds.
The right hon. Gentleman said not only are endowments national property, but the endowments are administered by the Church in virtue of its being established. I do not believe there is the slightest justification for that statement. I do not know upon what grounds the right hon. Gentleman made it. Does he say that when these grants were made they were granted to the Church because it was established? Of course not. The idea is an absolutely modern idea; it has no connection at all with the origin of these things. These grants, whether they were compulsory or voluntary, were not made to the Church as a kind of adjunct to the State; they were made to the Church because it was the exponent of Christianity. They were made for the upkeep of Christianity, for the upkeep of religion. Yes, the upkeep of religion, real religion, not county councils and museums. I ask the House of Commons to put aside all these cobwebs and technicalities, and to look at the broad facts of the case. I say these were funds devoted to religion, and that the gift, however it originated, has been recognised as such by centuries of acquiescence, as my right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Mr. Lyttelton), pointed out, and has been recognised over and over again by the Statutes of the State wherever they have touched the Church. They have always recognised and confirmed these grants as devoted to religion. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last read with great pride the Act dealing with the suppression of Chantry. The Government, for a precedent in justification of their action, go back to the days of the Tudors. I thought myself it was a matter of common knowledge that the one time during which this country lived under an intolerable tyranny was the reign of Henry VIII. and Edward VI.
Yes, and under the Cecils.
As a matter of fact, my ancestors had no share in the government of this country until the reign of Elizabeth, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman has not altogether forgotten his Welsh origin at that time. I may point out it was a grant with the consent of the Church. The Church said we have got this money; we do not wish to apply any more to the upkeep of Chantry, and they assented to the grant. It may or may not have been right for the Church to have done so, but it is no precedent for the Government action. I ask very seriously of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite. What really is the justification for diverting these religious funds to secular purposes? We really cannot be troubled by the legal subtleties of the right hon. Gentleman or of the Prime Minister as to the origin of these tithes. What does it matter? There they are, funds held by the Church for centuries, and administered by it for ecclesiastical purposes. Nor do I myself pay much attention to the plea that the Church would be better without the funds which it now administers. It is a plea which, I am glad to say, we have heard very little of in the Debate so far, but I am afraid that we shall not escape from it. It is one of the most disgustingly hypocritical pleas ever put forward. If there be any truth in it, why should there be any limitation; why should this alienation be limited to the funds with which the Church was endowed before 1662? Why should the Nonconformists be allowed to remain in possession of their endowments? Why are they not to be treated in the same way as Churchmen? If there is an element of truth in it, why not take the whole property of the Church in England and Wales away? I do not suppose you would destroy the Church. No doubt if you cut off the heads of its chief ministers it would still go on. If it is any justification that you will not succeed in doing serious injury to the Church, then it is a justification for every act of persecution that has ever been committed. There has been no argument adduced to show that there is any justice in this proposal, and that is the ground upon which we in this House will ultimately have to judge the Bill. It would be much more honest if hon. Members would say frankly that this is a Bill prompted by sectarian feeling—by nothing less than sectarian envy. The Under-Secretary for the Home Department, in a speech in the Queen's Hall on one occasion, said:—
"The Church of England has always been a retrograde and reactionary institution."
[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Yes, we are now coming to business; those cheers indicate what hon. Members think. [An HON. MEMBER: "Professor Lecky said it."] The Under-Secretary further said:—
"The Church has always been a parasite of the aristocracy.….It has always revelled in the bondage of ignorance."
Thai is the spirit in which this Bill has really been promoted. Anyone who reads the report of that meeting will know that I have not exaggerated it. I regret that spirit. I do not believe it is shared by the great majority of the religious Nonconformists of this country. I believe myself for one that the great majority of religious Nonconformists are in their hearts opposed to this Bill. There are many, as hon. Members opposite well know, who have said so. The right hon. Gentleman made an eloquent appeal to us to have regard to the great religious fervour of the Welsh people. I am quite ready to agree with that. But will the right hon. 'Gentleman or any hon. Member get up and say that we can afford to do without any of the existing religious or spiritual agencies in Wales or in other parts of the country. Is it not madness, at this stage of our civilisation, at this time of day, quite unnecessarily to raise this storm of contention between religious bodies in Wales? Surely every one of us who takes any interest in these things looks forward to the time when we shall come closer and closer together, and when we may hope for a reunion of all the forces of Christendom. I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite, I ask those who think that that is an ideal worth striving for, why should we dissipate the inheritance that has come down to us for religious purposes, and why hand it over to county councils for other purposes1? Why should we not conserve it to be devoted by united Christendom to purposes for which Christianity was established? I believe in my heart and conscience that the better sense of the people has already rejected this Bill. I believe that no power of the House of Commons or of any other body can force it into law, and, as long as the Government proceed with it, they will not do anything that will redound to their credit, but they will do, both directly and indirectly, incalculable injury to the religious cause which we ought all to have at heart.
I do not propose to discuss from a legal standpoint the antiquity of tithes or the relation of Disendowment to Disestablishment. What we have to face is the fact that the Church of England in Wales has lost grip of the population, and, although she is ministering in commercial Wales to a large number of Englishmen who have settled in Wales or on its borders, she is not making that progress that could be desired or maintaining her position among the nation as a whole. We are asked for some justification for diverting money originally bequeathed for the purpose of religion to other purposes. I venture respectfully to challenge the proposition that donors who have, from reasons, of religion or piety, or other reasons such as saving their souls, so richly endowed the Church in Wales and elsewhere, as they did in the Middle Ages, did so purely and solely for piety's sake, or for the sake of religion. At that time the Church and the State were intermingled. Very often it was difficult to distinguish between their duties. Sometimes the Church itself would fulfil some of the duties of the State. The Church was really the almoner; she distributed charity. She was the educator. There was no other form of education. Such scraps of science as were conveyed to the people at large came through the channels of the Church. Hence, when money was left to the Church, one must assume that at the back of the donor's mind there was a wider consideration—there were thoughts of other things, and it was not the establishment of any particular form of religion that actuated the gift. Since the State now undertakes the duty of education, since it undertakes the duties of the Poor Law, there is relegated to the Church certain duties no doubt of great importance morally and spiritually, but duties on a more limited scale than she exercised in the Middle Ages. I do not propose to enter into the arguments about the size of the minority or the proportion of its adherents to the total population. The Church was interwoven with the State; it was the custodian of the Scriptures and of the Christian tradition, it was the interpreter of every kind of religion. At the Reformation a change took place, and not only did the State undertake some of the duties which the Church had hitherto performed, but the people themselves entered upon their own heritage, and established forms of faith and worship altogether new. At the present time, in England, apart from Wales, the proportion of the adherents of the Church of England to the population as a whole is barely one-fifth; and the proportion of other denominations only amounts to another fifth; so that three-fifths of the population are altogether outside the organisation of any Church, including the Jewish Church. Therefore, to talk about the Established Church to-day in the sense in which it was spoken of in, the Middle Ages is altogether wrong. When we had a Catholic Church in this country, when there was practically no dissent, antecedent to the Reformation, we were dealing with one corporation only —a corporation fit and proper for the exercise of religion; but at the Reformation and subsequently we had a singular development. The Church of England, as we know, never reformed entirely. She retained for political and other reasons much of the ceremonial of the older Catholic Church and of its doctrine. There was introduced a certain amount of Calvinism; but she never went as far as the Reformed Churches of Northern Europe. We recognise that to-day, and I do not think any sincere member of the Nonconformist Churches would deny to the Church of England the right of retention of some of these traditions. But to-day she is unfitted to represent the nation by herself. The Christian faith finds its objective form or Sacramental expression largely through the Church of England; its subjective or religion of experience through the Free Churches. I am not wishing to emphasise the one or the other. But there are these two divisions in fact: two sets of conditions; two classes of Christian teaching and tradition. But one Church of the two proves it is not fit, at this time, to represent in its established form the whole Christian faith. I am not denying its rights. I am not desiring to see it weakened, and I should hope that any step of this kind is likely to call out its powers—they are great, though some of them 'are latent—to stimulate the generous feelings of loyalty on the part of its members so that they will never allow the poorer Churches to suffer, and that they will more than make up from their abundance any deficiency the Church may suffer through an Act of Parliament.
Hence I think the case for Disestablishment rests very strongly on considerations that stand outside those of law, although I do not underrate the force of the arguments which have been addressed to the House to-day. The State to-day, whether we like it or not, is finding its idealism in another form, in a civic form, in a form that is moral, in a form that is a practical one, in a form that is elevating to the people, and more and more we may find, without committing ourselves to one set of doctrines or the other, that, while we have the religious Churches with their idealism, who hold faiths that rest on supernatural sanction—with which the State has no part or lot, and ought not to have—the State has her idealism and her religion, of a lower character it is true, and with an horizon much lower, but yet very practical. Within her power the State can be religious in this sense, leaving to the Churches their function in creating an atmosphere which may aid and individualise many who want something more than to live for the day, even on moral lines. I therefore submit that we are doing nothing against religion itself. In conclusion, I wish to say that I do not think justice has been done to the efforts that have been made by the Free Churches of Wales, and the poorer parts of this country, in establishing their religion, in maintaining their ministry, in reaching after a certain amount of culture, in erecting their colleges for the training of that ministry, in personally doing, out of small means, a great deal that might shame those who in other Churches have had opportunities they have not taken advantage of. I think it wrong to say that these people, living in the villages and mountains and valleys of Wales— mystics as many of them are because they work in the mines or listen to the boom of the Atlantic—that these men and women whose pleasure it is, in a great many cases, to go to their chapels for meetings during the week, who form their choral societies whose music has rendered the valleys of Wales melodious, should be treated as people who are attacking another religious organisation, and who are the enemies of the Church of England in Wales. I am delighted to hear suggestions of closer feelings of sympathy and federalism on the part of the Church of England with other Churches. We sadly need it. We have a common work and a common enemy, but we shall not reach the stage in which federal association is possible until we find a common denominator, and that common denominator must be respect for each other and equality of treatment.
I rise to take part in this Debate as one whose position is somewhat different from that of those who have already spoken. I speak as a Roman Catholic on a question, which, probably, directly does not affect either myself or my Church. When this question is taken into consideration one immediately looks to the whole case, and it is neither a happy nor an edifying sight for one such as myself to see one of the two great parties of the Protestant Church, the Nonconformists, attempting to despoil the Church of England of their property and of their endowments. My own position in the matter is an entirely private one—that is to say, it is private entirely from my religious point of view. I might have voted on .either side, because I might have joined with the Nonconformist element in this House in voting for the despoiling of a Church which, as a Catholic, I might think to be one of my Church's rivals. But I cannot vote with them for the reason that I consider that the endowments of the Church of England in Wales were given originally to my own Church, and therefore I prefer to see those endowments remain in a Church to he used for religious purposes, rather than that they should go to aid secularism. That is is why I, among others who sit on this side of the House, advocate denominationalism in our educational system. I might vote with the Nonconformist party on the ground that these endowments might possibly some day come back to where I consider they originated, but I am afraid that that state of affairs is so entirely visionary that I cannot take it into consideration. The question of the endowments going to the Church work and to the denomination with which they would remain if this Bill did not pass is a question which not only arises now, it has been discussed on previous occasions. I do not think I could possibly do better than to follow the advice given in 1885 by one who I think the House will agree was a very great divine, and a man of very great learning in this country, Cardinal Manning. Perhaps the House will allow me to quote what he said in 1885 in his manifesto upon this question. He said:—
It is with those views that I stand here now, and I shall go into the Lobby against the Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Church in Wales, because I consider that these endowments should remain to be used by the Church for religious purposes. I am not going for one moment to enter into the masses of figures which attach themselves to this question. I will confine myself entirely to my own Constituency. In 1831, in Cardiff, there were two churches in the district upon which the city is now built. In 1906 there were thirty-eight. That alone is enough to show that if a Church can progressively add to her buildings at the rate of one church in every two years, she is certainly not in a moribund condition. Last week we had occasion to look upon an example which bears on the particular moment—an example which is a very good omen for those who defend the Church in Wales. On Tuesday of last week there was a ceremony of dedication of buildings which were additions to Saint Stephen's Church, in Mount Stuart Square, Cardiff, which were built at a cost of more than £3,000, because the Church in that part of the city was getting a greater population and required greater space. On Wednesday in the same week there appeared in the local newspapers an advertisement that the Congregational Church, in the same square, within a short distance of Saint Stephen's, was to be put up for auction. I think that is an argument in favour of leaving to the Church in Wales the endowments she already has, in order that she may carry out those duties among the poor in the dock quarter, those duties which even the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself has so very forcibly put before the country, and of which he very ably spoke at a conference in Cardiff on 29th December last. What he said then was a good argument for allowing the endowments to remain with the Church. This was a social conference of the Churches in Wales, at which both the Nonconformist Churches and the Church of England were widely represented. ought to keep open that picture of wretchedness and of sorrow until it is done away with. I ask hon. Members opposite how the Church in Wales can do it without its endowments. It is its endowments alone which keep it going and which allow it to help the poor, and it is because the Church in Wales has got its endowments that it is able to go down to the poorer quarters and help those whom it is there to help and whom the Nonconformist Churches are now seeking to follow and to imitate by starting endowments of their own. There is only one more question and that is the question of the money of the Churches in the city of Cardiff. At present the endowments are £3,041 per annum for thirty-eight Churches and Chapels of the Church of England. Under the Bill of 1909 that sum would have been reduced to £616, which I do not think anyone could say is too much for any Church to have. Under this Bill I do not know how far that £3,041 would be affected, but supposing the whole lot came from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners or from Queen Anne's Bounty it would only leave £1,013 for the Church to proceed with its work, and I do not think I could have better proof that the Church requires the full amount of its money untouched and undocked than the speech which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the greatness of his heart, made not only to the Nonconformist Church but to the members of the Church in Wales also in December, 1911.
I think we on this side of the House can certainly congratulate ourselves upon the decline of the attack to which our Church has been subjected for the past twenty years, when the first Welsh Disestablishment Bill was introduced into this House, it provided that not only should all the endowments of the Church be confiscated but that the Cathedrals should be confiscated as well, and that the date from which endowments were to be free was not 1662 as now, but 1703. In the second Bill both these proposals, which had been dropped in the previous Bill during the Committee stage, were omitted. The Cathedrals were preserved to the Church, and the date of disendowment was made 1662. Now upon the third Welsh Disestablishment Bill we find that we are not this time to be robbed of all our endowments except 1s. 6d. in the £, but that 5s. 2d. of our own money is generously handed back to us by the Home Secretary and the present Government. You will not diminish the opposition to this Bill one bit by all these concessions or any concessions of that sort which you may make in your despoiling proposals. The Church is not quarrelling about pence. We are out against the principle of Disestablishment and Disendowment, and as long as those-two proposals have any substance in them we shall oppose them to the very utmost of the power that is in us. I was much interested when I heard the Home Secretary announce that a certain amount of money was to be saved to the Church, and that the present clergymen were to be allowed to enjoy their stipends not only as long as they occupy their present position, but that as long as they remain inside the four Welsh dioceses, the money, at any rate, was not to be secularised. I was very interested to hear this, because I could not help remembering a speech which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made when the first Welsh Disestablishment Bill was introduced in 1894, when he did not occupy the proud and responsible position that he does now, but spoke as a private Member. This is what he said on the question of compensating the clergy in Wales after Disestablishment:—
"The Government proposed to utilise the property which would be placed at their disposal for the purpose of the social regeneration of rural life in Wales. In a small country like theirs, £200,000 would go a long way. The Government, however, proposed to postpone the operation of their scheme of social regeneration. He contended that they were not justified in doing so, and that the effect of their doing so would be a hardship even to the clergy. The right hon. Gentleman, in introducing the Bill, said the Establishment in Wales was creating a good deal of exasperation and disturbance If the Bill was passed in its present shape, instead of removing the causes of disturbance, it would increase and intensify them, because the people would have an inducement to create disturbances in order to get rid of the clergy."
If that was true in 1894, it was equally true to-day. By the present Bill there is not only an inducement to drive the wretched clergy out of the parish, which is what the right hon. Gentleman seriously suspected in 1894, but there is an inducement to drive the clergy out of the whole of Wales, and then the money will be used for social regeneration.
was understood to say: My complaint there was that under the Bill when a clergyman left his parish, his life interest vanished, but that is not the case in the present Bill, and that point has been met.
I do not think the right hon. Gentleman heard my very last words. I said this Bill was not only an inducement to drive the clergy out of the parish, as the right hon. Gentleman thought in 1894, but was an inducement to drive the clergy out of the whole of Wales, because directly they go to an English diocese the money will be returned for the regeneration of rural life in the Welsh villages.
How can they drive them?
I do not know how they could drive them out of the parish in 1894. That question should be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If you can drive a man out of a parish, it is easy to drive him out of the Welsh counties. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are experts in the matter of peaceful picketing or peaceful expulsion, as the case may be. That is not the only remark the right hon. Gentleman made on the subject. In the same speech he said:—
"The case for the Bill was that the services performed by these clergymen were not needed, and the fact that Nonconformist farmers paid for those services was the cause of exasperation and bitterness, yet the Government were going to perpetuate a system which they admitted to be a thoroughly bad one. He said they were simply giving away any case they might have for the Bill by postponing its operation for a whole generation."
That is precisely what the Government are doing at the present moment, and if they were giving away any case they might have had for the Bill in 1894 they are equally giving away any case they may have for the Bill at present. I am very glad to have had an opportunity of reading to the Chancellor of the Exchequer this little example of his own political consistency. I think there is another change in this Bill which we Churchmen can view with some amount of pleasure, and that is the disappearance of the National Council. The National Council, of which we heard a great deal in 1895, we understood to be the embodiment of Welsh nationality and Welsh nationalism. That council has now been dropped, and so, we suppose, that hon. Members opposite do not think it necessary in future to have any representatives of Welsh nationality. That, I think, we can regard as a valuable admission on their part, but I should like to address myself for a few minutes to some of the figures which the right hon. Gentleman gave, and which are given by his supporters sitting behind him. In the first place, the hon. Member (Sir Brynmor Jones) compared the Church of England communicants with Nonconformist members, and, having made that highly fallacious comparison, he went on to say that this was a comparison which was favourable to the Church because the number of communicants which was adopted by the Report of the Royal Commission came from a list which was prepared ad hoc for the purpose of the Commission. The hon. Member forgot to tell us that the Nonconformists also prepared lists ad hoc for the Royal Commission, and those lists were found to be so fallacious and so inaccurate that they had to be dispensed with, and figures from the ordinary year-books had to be substituted. Besides that, what was the list that the Church of England submitted? The Church of England submitted a list of its communicants, with their names and addresses, which the Nonconformist members of the Commission could have investigated by going to the addresses and finding out whether what we said was or was not true. They did their best, and I think that with a single exception they were absolutely unable to prove that the list was in any way inaccurate. What are we to say of the Nonconformist figures? They were unable to produce such specific lists as the Church did for this inquiry. They simply gave vague and general round figures without names—figures which have no other authority than that of the ministers who drew them up. They were figures which did not admit of being tested or inquired into, and in some cases they were actually in excess of the population of the' district.
Can the hon. Gentleman cite a single case where that was so?
In the evidence before the Royal Commission, that was, brought out in several cases. I have not got the names of the cases with me tonight, but I would be glad to send them to the hon. Member. The Nonconformist figures showed that the numbers of the adherents connected with their chapels were actually in excess of the population of the district. Therefore I say there is no possible comparison between the Nonconformist figures that were put before the Royal Commission and the Church figures, because the standard adopted by the Church was so very much more rigid and higher than the standard adopted by the Nonconformist bodies. What does this argument about figures prove, if it proves anything at all? I think it is admitted by hon. Gentlemen opposite that the Church in Wales to-day is a very much better organisation—a very much better Church—than in the beginning of the eighteenth century.
I wish to point out to the Noble Lord that if the Church is so much better now than two hundred years ago, she can get on much better without establishment and endowment, which causes so much bitterness and jealousy.
I am glad to hear from the hon. Gentleman that one of the motives that actuate his party is jealousy.
I attribute the jealousy to the Churchmen and not to the Nonconformists.
I do not think I shall be expected to reply to such an irrelevant interruption. I was asking hon. Members opposite what this argument about figures proves, if it proves anything at all. It is not denied that the Church is now in a better condition than in the beginning of the eighteenth century. What has happened in Wales since then? The Nonconformists have risen since then in Wales. They did not exist before. The argument of hon. Members opposite appears to be that the Church which was bad in the beginning of the eighteenth century should remain an established and endowed Church, and that the Church which has vastly improved in the course of 200 years—other denominations having risen or improved— ought to be destroyed. That appears to be a complete non sequitur. I do not see what the rise of Nonconformity has got to do with it. If the Church was in the bad condition to-day, she was in 200 years ago, then there might be some argument in favour of Disestablishment and Disendowment, but the Church is admitted to be doing good work, and to be a living Church; a Church that is rising. Then what good on earth are you going to do in interfering with her and crippling her as much as you possibly can?
I should like to address myself to the arguments used by the right hon. Gentleman about tithe in Wales. He said tithe in Wales is a tax. Well, without raising the whole question over again, I would simply like to put to him—would he be content to leave to the decision of any Court of Law in this country, the question whether tithe in Wales is a tax or not. If the right hon. Gentleman will not abide by the decision of any tribunal, however fair minded and impartial, then how can he expect that we shall be converted by his argument, or believe in the sincerity that lies at the back of it? An hon. Gentleman opposite who made a speech and then immediately left the House, referred to the intentions of the original donors of tithe, glebe lands, and other Church endowments, and he argued that these donors, when they left their money to the Church, had other intentions besides leaving it simply to the religious body of the country. He argued that they meant to leave it to such other purposes as education and things which are not part of religious life. I ask what right the hon. Member or anybody else has to decide what were the intentions of the pious men who have been dead some 1,200 years? If we are to judge of their intentions in the matter at all, surely nothing more repugnant to the sentiment of the Middle Ages could be conceived than that money dedicated to the Church should be taken and given to secular purposes. Hon. Members opposite say that we are talking more about disendowment than about disestablishment. Yes, we may be, but the reason is that the proposals of hon. Gentlemen opposite are more disendowment than disestablishment proposals. If you take the Bill of 1909, which contained thirty-three Clauses, you will find that three of these concern disestablishment and thirty concern disendowment. That represents the proportion of interest which hon. Gentlemen opposite take in this question. As one hon. Gentleman said candidly, the game would not be worth the candle if it were not for disendowment. I want to ask hon. Members opposite, how on earth, as religious men, they can to their own consciences justify a demand for disendowment of a body which is admittedly carrying on a great and glorious religious work in that part of the country. If hon. Members opposite were simply to say, "This money was left not to one part of the community, but for the whole nation, and we want you to divide it up according to the denominational opinion of the country, so that each denomination would have its fair share according to its size," that would be a proposal which would be consistent with a religiously minded man.
Would you accept it?
No, I would not accept it, but I should respect that opinion. I would not accept it because I believe that this property was left for the specific doctrines of the Church of England, and I do not believe that those doctrines are held by the Nonconformist bodies.
Do you mean High Church or Low Church?
Does the Noble Lord mean to say that the endowments in Wales were ever left, to use his own phrase, to the Church of England?
Yes, I do. I certainly say so. They were either bequests, left at death, or they were given during life, voluntarily given, by religiously minded men.
To the Church of England?
Yes, to the Church.
You said to the Church of England.
It was the Church of England.
It was to the Church of Rome.
Certainly not to the Church of Rome.
To the Catholic Church.
The Church has not altered its theological creed to-day from what it was in the Middle Ages by a single iota. [Laughter.] Hon. Members who laugh may think they know more of the Church of England to which they do not belong, than those who do belong to it.
"Was it left to the Protestant Church of England "as by law established"?
The hon. Member knows perfectly well that in those days the word "Protestant" had not arisen. I do not suppose that even the most rampant Nonconformist rejoices in the religious strife which arose in the days of the Reformation. Happily in those days the Church was one and undivided. The Church held the doctrine which is held by the Church of England to-day. The Nonconformists do not hold the doctrines of the Church in the Middle Ages. I believe that the Roman Catholics have also diverged in various doctrines from what was held in the Middle Ages. I put that forward as an answer to the hon. Member opposite who asks whether I should accept a division of all these endowments among the different sects of the country. My objection to that proposal is that this property was left to the Church, that the Church has not altered its theological position, and there is no reason why it should be given to other bodies. I can, however, conceive an hon. Member who takes the view that the property was not left to the Church but was left to the nation at large, saying that the property should be divided among all the religions of the country, but I cannot conceive how any man who calls himself a Christian can say that this money should be taken away from the Church and not given to any other Church, but given to build libraries and museums and works of that sort. Unless a man thinks that a museum or a library is of more importance than the Christian religion, I do not see how he can conscientiously support such a proposal. I should regard it as nothing short of sacrilege and robbery to take money away from religion, from a Church, and to devote it to secular uses. That is a doctrine to which no conscientious Christian can in his heart of hearts subscribe.
There is unhappily in the community at the present moment a body of men who are teaching us that all property left to, whatever purposes should be confiscated by the State, and put to the use of the State. One of my strongest objections against Socialism is that it is so materialistic, and I believe that if hon. Members opposite, who are Nonconformists, are going to teach this materialistic school of Socialism, that there is nothing in the country too sacred or too ancient for their thieving hands to be withheld from them, I say that Nonconformists are cutting away the security of their own endowments and their own property. We deny absolutely that there is any distinction between Nonconformist endowments and endowments of the Church of England. Hon. Members opposite may say that the Church has altered her theological position since these endowments were given to her. We deny it. But even if she has done so, that does not help hon. Members a single bit. As has been pointed out to-night, the Dissenters Chapels Act deliberately protects Nonconformists' endowments. Although the body holding those dissenting chapels may have altered their theological opinions entirely, it deliberately protects the congregations in individual chapels who have been in undisputed possession of that property for twenty-five years from any disturbance where there is no definite trust. As hon. Members on those benches point out, that makes the analogy of the Church of England even more complete. I do not suppose that even hon. Members opposite would say that the Church has changed her theological position since the Reformation. But the Reformation was more than twenty-five years ago; it was more than 250 years ago. Therefore, on the argument of the hon. Members opposite about the change of faith, our title to our property is more than ten times as good as the title of a great many Nonconformist chapels in this country.
I may remind the House of certain facts about the Dissenters Chapels Act which have not yet been alluded to. The Act was passed by such men as Peel, Gladstone, and other prominent Churchmen of that day. I would call attention to what Lord Macaulay said in the House of Commons on that Bill on 6th June, 1844. He was arguing in favour of the principle of the Act, which is the principle of prescription, and used these remarkable words:— can show such good title to their property as the Church has.
As trustees or beneficiaries?
As trustees and beneficiaries. The Church, of course, is trustee for the material wealth that is provided for her. She is in a sense a beneficiary as regards that material wealth which helps her in carrying on her work. The hon. Member opposite knows that the clergy of the Church do not simply perform their duties for the sake of a livelihood. I am sure he does not make any insinuation of that kind.
What I suggest is that the beneficiaries are the whole of the parishioners, and not merely that section who happen to be communicants of the Church of England.
The difference between an Established and Disestablished Church is that as long as a Church is established, every parishioner, whatever his religious opinion may be, has a right to command the services of the clergyman of the parish. That right is not denied to Nonconformists or to any parishioner. What hon. Members say is, first of all, that the Church property is given for national purposes, and for that reason the buildings are equally for national purposes. Hon. Members, therefore, are going to deprive the other parishioners of the right to enter those buildings, and those who support this Bill are simply taking away from the parishioners those bits of national property of which they make use at the present moment. The question I wish to put is a simple one: Do you allege that this; money is being badly spent, that it is being spent in an evil cause, and that the nation would gain by its being taken away? As I said, I cannot conceive how any man who thinks that religion is more important than anything else can view without passion the spoliation of a Church and of religion so that the money may be devoted to secular purposes. We may ask, as to the Church, what evil hath she done? We may say, and we do say, that in order to justify taking away this property you have not only got to prove that the Church is not using it well, but you have got to prove that she is using it badly. You have to prove that this money is being used directly contrary to the interests of the community, and until you have done that you will in no way have proved your case for withdrawing money which we believe is being put to its best possible use by a Church which is full of vitality and of righteousness at the present day.
We Churchmen have no wish to interfere with the religious work which is carried on by Nonconformists. We do not bear our Nonconformist fellow-subjects any ill-will. One hon. Member sitting opposite said that we have a common enemy to fight. We have. What did the Report of the Royal Commission bring out? It brought out that Nonconformists in Wales claimed not more than about half the population, and the Church claimed nearly the other half of the population. But both sides agree that there is a part of the population which is not touched by either the Nonconformists, Roman Catholics, or by the Church. I say it is towards the conversion of that portion of the population that the energies of the Nonconformist Churches and the Church of England should be directed, instead of engaging in internecine conflict between Christians, which can prove a source of rejoicing only to those who do not believe in Christianity. There is a further question about tithe, which I want to ask hon. Members. You say that tithe is national property, that it is a tax, that it was given by the State, and that the State has a right to resume it. What are you going to do with the tithe which is at present held by laymen That is a question which has not been answered yet, and I ask the Under-Secretary for the Home Office to give a reply. How about the £40,000 a year that was left in tithe, and which is at the present moment in the hands of laymen in Wales. It has been stolen by them or their ancestors from the Church.
Are they Churchmen?
Some are, and a great many are Nonconformists; actually one tithe is held by a Nonconformist chapel. The tithe was stolen at the Reformation. I have asked for a list of those laymen who have got possession of Church tithe. Hon. Members are very fond of quoting precedents from the reign of Henry VIII. You can get a precedent from the reign of Henry VIII. for practically every kind of crime or vice which you like to mention.
He was a good Churchman.
The hon. Member may have his own opinions about that. But this money was stolen at the time of the Reformation, and it is now held by laymen. We believe that if you took that money from the present holders you would, inflict an injustice upon them, because they have bought their tithe, or inherited it, or obtained it when they bought the land, and they are in no way responsible for the way in which it originally came into their families, or the families of those people from whom the land was purchased. If you are going to take the line that this tithe is a tax, and is national property, and that it ought to be given, back to the nation, then I ask you by what right are you going to say that this tax shall not be enjoyed by the Church, but that it shall be enjoyed by private individuals who have hot a better right to it than the Church, but have a worse right to it than the Church? Again. I say that is preaching the doctrine that the work of the Church is less important than materialistic things. It is more than that; it is the assertion of the doctrine that the Church is carrying on less worthy work than private individuals who are spending the money on themselves. I ask any reasonable man who believes in Christianity, who does not believe that the Church is doing the work of evil, how he can possibly support such a proposal as this? If you believe in this doctrine that tithe is a national tax and national property, then with what consistency do you withhold your hand, your greedy hand, from the pockets of laymen when you are plundering the coffers of the Church? I should like to remind hon. Members opposite of the words of Dr. Döllinger, when he said that if the Church was disestablished and disendowed it would be hailed as a great victory by the opponents of Christianity all over Europe. I ask hon. Members opposite to imagine what our new converts in the mission field would think about this question when they were told that the Church which they were being invited to join—I am glad to say that in the mission field the common enemy is more apparent and sectarian bitternesses, are practically non-existent what newly converted Christians in the mission field, who have not realised our sectarian differences, would think when they were told that in England the Church had been disestablished, and that property to the amount of £180,000 a year had been taken away. I believe any; independent man would say that such a piece of news would be disastrous to every Christian station in every quarter of the world.
I do appeal to hon. Members opposite not to pursue this dog in the manger policy. You are not taking the money for yourselves, for your own Church, but you are simply saying that the Church of England shall not have it. That is the policy of the dog in the manger. It is the policy of the woman who asked King Solomon to tout the baby in half. You do not hope to benefit yourselves by it, but you simply lope to injure a rival. That, I say, is a spirit which is diametrically opposite to the whole spirit of Christianity, and it is an opinion that can be held by no truly religious-minded man. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech referred to the Colonial analogy. Hon. Members opposite assume that if you are disestablishing you must also disendow. The two questions have got absolutely nothing to do with each other. In the Colonies you have had Disestablishment already; you have it in Australia and in Canada, and in Nova Scotia, and in the United States, and in not one of those cases when the Church was disestablished was she also disendowed. At the time of the Disestablishment in Canada not an acre of land that was in the possession of the Church was taken from her. The land which the Church held in Canada was given to her by the State, and yet the State when it disestablished the Church did not disendow her. In Massachusetts, though the endowment of the Church of England was granted by the British Government, which the United States had successfully rebelled against, yet when the Church was disestablished that property was in no wise interfered with. It was the same with Australia. When the Church was disestablished there it was not disendowed. We say that this question of Establishment is really and entirely a different question from the question of Endowment. We believe this Bill to be a Disendowment Bill rather than a Disestablishment Bill, and that is why we are fighting it on those lines. The question of Establishment is a separate question, and it is a question which some Churchmen would accept.
Would you accept it?
I certainly would not accept Disestablishment. But this is an entirely different question. The real question here is whether the Church shall be dismembered and disendowed. That is why Churchmen are fighting this Bill as they have never fought before, and that is why the Government will not be able to carry this Bill into law. We heard a few words this evening about the general unity of all Christians; we heard a few words about the co-operation of Christians and the reunion of the Churches. If this Bill became law it would render any such reunion or further co-operation absolutely impossible. Do you think you would be forwarding the cause of Christian brotherhood by such speeches as the speech of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ellis Griffith)? Does that hon. Gentleman think he has forwarded Christian brotherhood by making speeches of that sort and by proposing to steal three-fourths of the property of the Church? Surely the passion that has been aroused by this controversy is only the beginning of a great blaze of religious intolerance, and religious strife, and religious warfare, such as we have not known since the days of the Reformation. It is not us who are stirring up that strife, it is hon. Members opposite. This controversy is not of our seeking, it is of their seeking. They have deliberately come forward and they have deliberately forced the country into this controversy. We do not want the controversy, but if it is forced upon us then we shall fight it to the bitter end. I venture to say that there is no greater enemy to Christian brotherhood than a sectarian attack of this character on the Church. I would venture to say whatever the Government do they will not be able to force by what we believe to be an electoral dodge without the sanction of the majority of the electors of this country, such a scheme upon the nation. This House of Commons is not as supreme as hon. Members think. This question of the religion of the Church, our Church, which we value above everything else in the country, that is a question which lies far deeper than questions of party politics, and hon. Members opposite will find that they cannot trifle with the religious convictions of the great body of Churchmen as a whole, and that we are engaging upon a struggle the end of which they but faintly realise, and a struggle that will not be terminated until the Church has repelled her assailants from every quarter.
I am sorry that the Noble Lord, whilst claiming to speak on behalf of religion, did not show a little of that charity which thinketh no evil. I approach this question from the point of view of a Nonconformist, and I have to admit that, apart from the speech of the Noble Lord, we really have very little to complain about as to the tone or the manner of the speeches delivered by the other side. We are rather accustomed in the country to be assured, and I think one hon. Member opposite said, that we are actuated in this matter by a spirit of jealousy. May I draw the attention of the Noble Lord and some of his Friends to the view of one of his leaders, the Bishop of St. Davids, that this is not a question between Church and chapel, but it is, as he puts it, a question between the new theology or the new philosophy and the old religion of the Bible. Then the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) assured us a few days ago that the Church, and the Church only, stood between Wales and infidelity. As against that, I need only recall to the House the statement made by the Bishop of Liverpool, and which I think is a good deal more correct, namely, that the Nonconformists in Wales deserved respect because they kept religion alive when the Church was asleep. Reference has been already made to the continuity of the Church. I notice that the Archbishop of Canterbury in, if I may say so, that very moderate and statesmanlike speech, which he delivered yesterday at Carnarvon, referred to the suggestion that there has been continuity in the Church of this country. If the reverend gentleman confined his remark to the Church in England, I am not prepared to dispute it, because I do not pose as an authority on that part of the question. But as far as the condition of things in Wales is concerned, no one with the slightest knowledge of Welsh history will assert that we were not a nation of Catholics. Even in the reign of Elizabeth our forefathers declined to sell their convictions in order to occupy positions of great influence in the Church. The Bishop Designate of Bangor left for Borne; a second Welshman who gave up his position in the Church in my own county was one of the founders of the English College in Rome; a third became Archbishop of Milan. In any event, history proves that whether these gifts of land and of money were made for the use of the Church or for the use of the people through the Church, the channel through which these gifts were made and were intended to be made, was the Catholic Church of the pre-Reformation period.
It is, I think, a fact that even Nonconformists in England do not quite realise that we never accepted the Protestant Church thrust upon us by the House of Commons. For at least a century we were practically, to all intents and purposes, pagans. With the beginning of the eighteenth century came the Methodist revival. No one, I question whether even the Noble Lord himself (Viscount Wolmer), will contend that the Church of England from 1700 to 1850 ever cared for or tried to attend to the spiritual needs of the Principality. What was the position? For 150 years we had English bishops—every one of them up to the year 1860 or 1870; they were ignorant of our language, they were contemptuous of our traditions, they were absentees. Shall I say more? They were often corrupt—so corrupt that one bishop, the Bishop of St. Asaph, had half the income of his see in the possession of himself or of his family. If anyone doubts the description that I have given of the bishops and clergymen who were supposed to attend to our spiritual interests up to-the year 1870, may I quote an impartial authority? I will not ask hon. Members to accept the opinion of a Nonconformist; I will quote rather the opinion of an eminent Churchman—the most brilliant Churchman of the last generation, a brother of the present Bishop of St. Asaph. This is what he said:—
That was the Church in Wales; that is the Church which has enjoyed the endowments and has been in possession of the money and land that were intended for the whole of the nation; and that, I submit, is a Church which has failed, and failed so ignominiously that there has never been made to this House upon any question a demand so insistent and so overwhelming as the demand and claim for Disestablishment. Let us take the position to-day. There are at the present moment in the Principality 1,864 churches, and the Nonconformists have provided 4,764–1,864 provided by the national wealthy church, 4,764 by the Nonconformists. Further, the National Church to-day-claims only to provide seating accommodation for two out of nine of the population. Another fact which is always overlooked is that the greater part of that seating accommodation is where it is least needed, because it is in the rural parishes and not in the more populated districts of the mining centres. The Commission points out that
"in the old parish churches in rural districts, especially where Welsh predominates, there is often more than enough room owing to the rise of Nonconformity since such churches were built."
I do not wish to enter into a discussion of figures to-night; I will only point out that whatever figures were tendered on behalf of the Nonconformists, they were accepted by the Commission and were taken from the year books. I understand that the Church has a year-book. Why did they not tender it and stand by it? I have in my possession a book published by the "Western Mail" Office in Cardiff, entitled the "Churchman's Year Book," which is supposed to provide powder and shot for Church defenders in Wales. One would assume that that would be correct, and that not unnaturally the case for the Church would not be understated. Moreover, in that book, published in the year 1905, there is a note to the effect that the figures can be relied upon, for the simple reason that they have been supplied by the incumbents of the parishes. If anyone will take the trouble to look up the figures there given they will find 30,000 less communicants than were returned the following year by the Church of England for the purposes of the Commission. If any hon. Member opposite wishes to deal with the figures again, I invite him to explain why there was an increase of 20 per cent. in the number of communicants in the Church between the publication of the official Year Book of the Church and the compilation of the figures supplied to the Commission. One or two hon. Members have suggested that we ought to have a census. What would it prove? It would prove either that the Church is as we contend in a minority or that a large number of Church members in Wales were as insistent as we are in the demand for Disestablishment and Disendowment.
I would refer also to the Parliamentary position in Wales. Reference has been made to Ireland; but in the Irish Church case there is 5 for and 40 against, but in favour of the present demand from Wales we have thirty-one Members, as against three Members opposed to Disestablishment. I am glad to observe that nothing has been said to-day suggesting either the inferiority or the inefficiency of the Welsh Nonconformist ministry; but on platforms in England it has been rather common to suggest that Nonconformist ministers were not only inferior in education and culture to the ministers of the Established Church, but that they were ignorant and incompetent. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] I have heard it over and over again. It is common talk in England, and has been for the last twenty years. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"] I have taken part in these discussions in the English Press for eighteen years, so that I ought to be fairly well conversant with what are the claims made on behalf of the Church in Wales. May I point out in regard to the standard of education of the ministry in Wales that Sir Harry Reichel, the Principal of one of the colleges in Wales, himself a Tory and a Churchman—and I believe he is no worse for that—the son of a bishop, has said this of the Nonconformist ministers— so far as Wales is concerned, there was undoubtedly a part of the tithe intended for the needs of the poor. The authority I rely upon is the statement made by Mr. Willis Bund, who points out that the greater part of the tithes in Wales were given not to the vicars of the parish, but to the Latin Monasteries who were, of course, charitable as well as religious organisations. I was surprised to read some time ago the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. He used extravagant, words in connection with the Welsh Church. He said that the Nonconformists in Wales
Let me make a broad statement. I challenge any hon. Member who has any acquaintance with Wales beyond that obtained from the perusal of Church defence pamphlets, to contradict me when I say that whatever success attends the Church at the present moment in Wales— and I for one gladly admit it—that success is to be found where the Church is voluntary, and not where it is dependent upon endowments. After all, tithes and endowments are to be found in the rural parishes, and it is notorious that the Church in Wales is weakest and most helpless in the rural parishes. Let me give an instance. The district which I represent, the southern part of Carnarvonshire, has one twenty-seventh of all the Welsh endowments, consequently the Church ought to be strong; and, secondly, the Church ought to be aggressive and progressive. What is the position? In communicants it is outnumbered by eight to one by Nonconformity. Where there are endowments amounting to £9,000 besides glebe and parsonages, it has less than 3,000 communicants; twelve of the Churches concerned have less than twenty communicants; five out of the twelve have less than ten communicants. Let me go now to the Island of Anglesey, and give other instances where the endowments are large, where there is ample provision for the work of the Church, and where, therefore, it ought to succeed. In three parishes of Anglesey there is an income of £2,200 a year, besides parsonages and glebe. These two Churches have 205 communicants.
I repeat that if the Church of England in Wales had made any attempt to form a common fund out of this money, and use it for the growing needs of the Church, in the mining centres and in the larger towns, I for one would have been less anxious to advocate Disestablishment and Disendowment. I want to emphasise this; Wherever the Church has an endowment it is a failure. Where, on the other hand, it depends upon voluntary effort and on the zeal and enthusiasm of its members, it is to-day succeeding. The Noble Lord and other Members of the Opposition have referred a good deal to the possibility of Christian reunion. It is highly desirable, but the Noble Lord ignores one very important fact, the bitterness which has existed in Wales for the last 100 years. He ignored the fact that the Church for which he stands to-day persecuted and then prosecuted Nonconformists, and that persecution is going on, to a certain extent, now. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where?"]
Will Disestablishment cure that?
Perhaps not. But the Noble Lord forgets this bitterness. I would like him to listen to two quotations which I am going to give for the consideration of the House. When he has heard them he may be able to account for the bitterness and lack of co-operation which exists to-day. Speaking a few weeks ago, the Bishop of St. Asaph made a rather remarkable statement. He said:—
"It has been said that there is some gulf of doctrine between Nonconformists and the Church of England in Wales. Nothing of the kind exists. One hundred years ago the Calvinistic Methodists separated from the Church, not in a spirit of hostility … the object was to preach the Gospel of Christ as expounded in the articles of the Church of England. There was no gulf of doctrine between them. They were regiments in the one Christian army."
I think that is a very laudable spirit in which to approach the question. May I point out that the same bishop and two of his colleagues on the episcopal bench in Wales have placed on record in the minutes of evidence of the Royal Commission that, "apart from doctrinal objections, co-operation between the Church of England and the Nonconformist in matters of divine worship would weaken the cause of true religion." There is no co-operation, and it is not because there is a difference upon questions of doctrine. The position to-day is that co-operation between the Church and the Nonconformists is impossible. The bitterness which has existed still exists. The contempt which Churchmen have felt in the past for the Nonconformists unfortunately remains to-day. They have been intolerant, they have fought for their privileges even at the graveside, and that is the reason why this demand is supported by the largest majority ever cast in this country for any particular plan. I say frankly, and I hope I say quite sincerely, that I think Disestablishment and Disendowment would make the Church much stronger. If it is once freed from the fetters of the State and is allowed to mould its own policy and creed, and to make the spirit of the Church answer to the genius of the Welsh people, it will then appeal to the Welsh people for support, and I, for one, have no doubt that that appeal will be met with the generosity which has characterised the response of the Welsh people to all religious appeals in the past. May I make one quotation before sitting down? The late Dean Edwards, thirty years ago, said, "Take away if you will this privilege, take it away if you must, but give back to the Welsh Church the living ministry that will appeal to the Welsh people."
I do not think the speech we have just listened to is likely to conduce to the promotion of Christian charity and Christian reunion. When I say that I do not make any imputation of any kind against any of the great Christian Nonconformist communities in Wales. I want to say what I have always said, that I am one of those Churchmen who earnestly desire to see the friendship-and co-operation of all Christian Churches, for the good of the people and for the good of religion. I will go a step further. I think it is extraordinarily important, having regard to the conditions not only in this country and in Wales, but to the general condition of scepticism in Western Europe, if we are to preserve-the paramount position of the Christian religion, that all Christian communities ought to leave off this attitude of antagonism and do their work and cooperate together for their common purpose and their common end. If I may now leave what the hon. Member has just said, I would refer to the arguments brought forward and the demands made in the introductory speech of the Home Secretary and a very lucid exposition of the hon. Member for Swansea (Sir Brynmor Jones). Although I do not agree with him, and I propose to point out where I think he is entirely wrong, I think everyone who heard him must admit that he made his points perfectly clear and understood in all parts of the House. First on the question of history. We have been dealing with this question to a great extent as a matter of history and a matter of legal principles. I do not deny that the historical side of the question is of importance; still more, I would admit that the question of legal principle is of very great importance. But there are matters which to my mind, as a Churchman, go entirely outside these questions of historical and legal differences. The great question is this: Can it be said that this antagonism to a great Christian institution like the Church in England and Wales by rival Christian communities can possibly be for the benefit of Christian teaching or Christian development? That to my mind is a question of paramount importance. I think the answer must be in the negative. And if that be so, I am sure it will appeal to a very large number of the religious-minded Nonconformists to leave off this attitude of what I may almost call persecution towards the Church of England, either in England or in Wales, and accept the fact that we are doing a great work and a great religious work, and instead of attacking us come to us in order to co-operate and help us in our great Christian duty.
I do not like to quote upon a matter off this kind, but I would like to remind the House of what was said by one of the greatest religious authorities of modern times, who was often referred to, Dr. Döllinger. I only want to quote him because I agree with him not in matters of doctrine and faith, but upon this point. What he said was that "in his view there would he no greater blow to the progress of Christianity in Western Europe than the disestablishment and disendowment of the National Church in England." My next point is one which seems to me has been omitted so far from the speeches on either side. No one will deny that we are dealing with a great national institution, an institution which has had a vast influence upon the national life, upon national traditions and national development, and when an institution of that kind is attacked surely the first question we as Churchmen are entitled to ask is—what has been the failure and the fault which entitled you to attack an institution which has our love and veneration in the sense which our Church has, whether in England or in Wales? What is the answer to that question? I think the answer has been given in a very decided way. I will give it shortly from three points of view. In the first place, as already pointed out, we have the testimony of Mr. Gladstone and of the present Prime Minister that the Church in Wales at the present time is doing its duty in an admirable and efficient manner. I do not want to go back, as the last speaker did, to matters of old history and old prejudice. We have to deal with the position as it stands to-day, and the question is can anyone get up in this House and affirm that this grand old national institution is not at the present moment doing its religious duties towards the people of this country in an admirable and efficient manner. The Royal Commission speaks for itself, but I do want to quote a passage from a historian who was not an English historian, but a man of very wide knowledge, I mean the late Mr. Leckey. What does he say on this point? I make this quotation because it summarises the true position. Mr. Leckey talked of the Church as— national Church in this country. I will also read what Mr. Leckey says on the question of Disendowment. He says:— State government, and one only has to say that if you believe in a principle of that kind, of course it follows that some Church must be selected in order that the State may have the benefit of its Christian co-operation.
That applies to any other connection the State may make. I do not want to compare the establishment of a Church for establishment purposes with a selection made by the State for merely temporal purposes; but in their essence the position is the same. The selection is made not to give a privilege to the selected body, but because it is for the benefit of the State to select the body which can carry out its duties in the best and most efficient manner. I want to join issue with the Home Secretary upon the statement in which he said in his view he expressed the views of Churchmen. No one can be responsible in political life for what individuals may possibly say, but I cannot believe any Churchman has said that Disestablishment implies what the right hon. Gentleman called the national repudiation of religion. I know of no Churchman, at any rate no representative Churchman, who would ever make a statement of that kind. There is all the difference in the world between talking of Disestablishment, as though it implied the national repudiation of religion, and advocating Establishment because it is a public recognition of Christian duty in a State Department as regards Government activities. Let me carry that argument one step further. We really have had very little discussion to-night as to what is really meant by Establishment, but I want to put this point to the Home Secretary. An Established Church means a Church which has to carry out a great national duty, and it is a question of duty rather than a question of privilege. What is the great national duty which the Church is carrying out, and which cannot be carried out in the same way by any voluntary body? It is the duty of providing Christian ministrations within the reach of every citizen in every part of our country, either in Wales or. England, and that is a great duty. Of course, it is founded on what we call the parochial system, but I would ask any Nonconformist present whether a great duty of that kind, of providing ministrations open to everyone, can possibly be performed except on the parochial basis, which is at the bottom of our Church organisation?
As a matter of fact, it is the object of the great Nonconformist community, as far as they possibly can, and as far as their funds allow, to provide a resident minister in each district for which they are religiously responsible. More than that it is the experience of hon. Members opposite, as well as of hon. Members on this, side of the House, that many of us have been asked to subscribe funds in order that Nonconformist communities may be able to establish a great principle of that kind and I agree with that desire which Nonconformist communities have expressed. I have no wish to depreciate the work they have done, and I wish in every direction to assist them as far as we can in a common object. Just as we are performing a great national duty by providing Christian ministrations within the reach of every citizen, I am certain I can say that they cannot fulfil a great duty of that kind without they fulfil it substantially on the same basis and in the same manner. We all know perfectly well that there are special difficulties in fulfilling a great national duty of this kind in Wales owing to the bilingual question. Here I am referring, and we may all refer, to the findings of the Royal Commission. It may be true that in the past there was a time when the Church—I do not call it the English or the Welsh Church—did not provide a, sufficiency of Welsh services within the Welsh Principality. That is not so at the present moment. The Report of the Commission said that so far as Welsh services are desired and desirable the Church has done its duty and is providing those services at the present moment.
There is another matter on which I wish to say one word. This alliance or relationship between the Church and the State, which historically has been one of the great difficulties in the way of Christian progress in other countries, has been established in this country on a, footing which has really been successful. Of course, you may have friction, and there are times when you want patience and forbearance, but on the whole this great problem of the relationship between Church and State has been carried out satisfactorily in this country, and stands at the present moment as one of the safeguards and guardianships of Christian morality and Christian religion. I think it may be said that in one country, and" in one country only, has the relationship been: more successfully established. I mean Scotland. Why is that? It is because in Scotland the Church has larger spiritual freedom than it has in England, and the reason of that is that William III. found it more difficult in the Scotch case against the spiritual wishes of the Scotch people to put anything like temporal bonds upon their spiritual life and development. After all, of course we all admit that in a great question like the Established Church there is room for reform, but reform is altogether a different matter from destruction. I say again, as I said at the outset, unless you can show the Church is failing in its duty at the present moment, there is no answer to what I say, that these antagonisms which are being promoted in the attack on the Church, coming from rival Christian communities, can do nothing but harm to the future development of Christian morality and Christian religion. What are the further arguments the Home Secretary advanced against the principle of Establishment? In the first place, he said the Church in Wales was the Church of the minority. The answer is two-fold. I do not recognise, on a question of this kind, that we are to be governed by matters merely of minorities and majorities. I wish the right hon. Gentleman were the Chief Secretary of Ireland at present. He spoke the other day, and described himself as an historical Nonconformist, but he said, and I think he said quite rightly:— calculation of Mr. Horace Mann, which I agree is a right foundation, you find in large portions of Wales seats out of all proportion to all possible occupants. I say to provide seats under those conditions is nothing more than wasteful and wanton expenditure, and is no good to anyone in the true spirit of religious development and religious progress. What is the second fallacy already referred to by the right hon. Gentleman? Of all places in Wales he selected Glamorganshire. There is no county in Wales in which the national element is less isolated or less capable of satisfactory discrimination than in the case of the mining population in Glamorganshire. In recent years you have had enormous numbers of immigrants from outside. A large number of these immigrants are not Welsh at all, and a large number when they come may be already members of certain Nonconformist communities. What is the good, when you are really trying to test the position between the Church and Nonconformity in Wales, of selecting Glamorganshire, where the population depends upon immigration from outside, and where the relation between numbers and accommodation has nothing to do with the true position?
Let me say one other word in answer to the Home Secretary. I regret, and I have always regretted, the doctrine of comparative statistics in this great religious question in Wales. It does not appeal to me to know whether a greater progress has been made in a given time by one rival Christian community or another. I rejoice to find—and that is the real lesson of the Report of the Commission—there has been a large religious life and a large religious revival among the Welsh people in modern times. The moral I draw from that is this. It is absurd to say the Church Establishment is standing as an obstruction to the religious development of the Welsh people. The moral is an entirely different one. It has had a stimulating and a wholesome influence. I do not therefore want the Church in Wales to have a monopoly as regards the religious life of the people. I am one of those who believe in variety of expression in religious life, because I do not think in any other way you get the true spirit of religious earnestness. When I find that the Church in Wales, in co-operation with other great Christian communities, has led to an enormous and satisfactory development in Church and religious life, then I say that is to the honour both of the rival Christian communities and of the Church, which has done its duty nobly and admirably in the Welsh Principality. There is a matter that I cannot overlook, although it has not been referred to by the Home Secretary. I refer to it because it has been used as an argument against Establishment by a Minister of great importance in these matters. I mean the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He wrote a preface to a book. Perhaps that is a mistaken thing for a Minister to do. He attacked Establishment on these three grounds. He said the Church was an alien Church—our Church! He said it represented foreign conquest, and he went on to ask what right had the electors of Canterbury to impose their religious views on the people of Wales. Let me answer each of those points. An alien Church! Why we are as much indebted to Wales in England for our Church as Wales is indebted to England for the English invasion. I agree with what Mr. Gladstone said. You might just as well talk of the Welsh Church in England as of the English Church in Wales. After all, what do you mean by an alien Church? Christianity in that sense is an alien Church in the whole of this country. We want to know whether the Church is true, whether or not Christianity is being well taught. How can you advance an argument of that kind against the Church of England with the knowledge that if you want to appeal to prejudice, Christianity, the great doctrine in which we all believe, did not have its origin in this country or in Wales? You prejudice the whole of Christianity and not merely the Church in this country.
Then what about foreign conquest? Are we going to determine the religious morality of the people of the present day by what passed 500 years ago? What do you mean by foreign conquest? There was no foreign conquest in regard to the Church between England and Wales at all. If it means anything it simply means this, that as in other matters your Church organisation grew to the benefit of the Church and to the mutual advantage of all its members, whether they resided in Wales or in England. Perhaps the last suggestion is the most absurd of all. I have heard it suggested more than once as if there was some question of imposing the English Church on the Welsh. There is no such question at all. It is utterly impossible at the present time of day to impose a Church in that sense upon anyone, upon an individual, and much less on the Welsh people. Whether the English Church is disestablished or not, it is open to the Welsh people of their own free will and their own free wish to say whether or not they will become members of it. I cannot understand how any great Welshman, like the Chancellor of the Exchequer, can in a great religious issue of this kind appeal to pure questions of prejudice, which should be kept out of all religious discussions. There is only one other matter as regards the Establishment which I wish to deal with, and that is the question of mandate. Mandate is over-pressed in every direction when we have discussions in this House. There is always a question of mandate: men always question how far it goes, and I must say, for my part, it would surely tend more to the honour of the discussions of this House if, instead of considering a subject as merely a question of mandate, the proposal could be considered from the point of view whether or not it was right and just. After all, I deny that the question of mandate ought to be referred to in a case of this kind. If you really want to know what the people of England and Wales combined, or of Wales alone, think, and what they truly wish, you have the remedy in your own hands. You can either have a Referendum on the isolated question or you may give them an opportunity, fully and freely, of expressing their opinion, not on a mere abstract discussion, but when they know the nature, character, and details of the Bill to which you ask either their affirmative or negative.
We have had a reference to the Irish precedence. May I show what is the distinction between that case and this? In the case of the Irish precedent, you had a suspensory Bill brought in first. That Bill was thrown out, and then you had the General Election. The whole discussion at that General Election turned on the question whether or not the Irish Church should be disestablished. It was the only issue that was before the people. It was an isolated issue. It was a matter on which Mr. Gladstone spoke all up and down the country. I should like if I could to have the same advantage here. I know pretty well what the people of England think, and I have had the advantage of addressing Welsh audiences. We may have different views, but my belief is this, that if the people of this country have an opportunity of giving their opinion on the Bill as now introduced, it will have a short shrift, and we shall hear of it no more in this House. Of course, the absurdity of the present position has already been pointed out as regards the holding over even the question of the introduction of this Bill until the return of the Irish Members from the Nationalist Convention in Dublin. The old argument which we heard a week or two ago was that Irish Members should decide Irish questions and that Welsh and English Members should decide questions in which they are commonly interested. I want to put this question to the Home Secretary. If you believe in a principle of this kind the only electors really and immediately interested, and therefore the only electors who ought to decide this question, are the electors either of Wales or of England, and if you were to take their decision you would be in a minority at the present moment.
Certainly not in a minority in Wales.
This is not a matter for Wales alone. Do you suggest that the one Church in which all the Welsh and English dioceses of which it is comprised are under the provinces of Canterbury and York? Do you suggest that in such a case an Englishman has not as great an interest as a Welshman in the maintenance of the Church as a whole 1 I deny absolutely what I understand to be the view of the hon. and learned Member opposite. There is no Welsh Church at all. The Welsh Church is a portion of the English Church. It is the English and Welsh Church. It is one whole, and I think it mean and paltry to suggest that it should be attacked where the Church is weakest or where prejudice may be the greatest. Now I want to come to another question, the importance of which I thoroughly admit, and that is the question of endowments. In my view the proposals made are nothing less than pillage and plunder—pillage and plunder which are emphasised when you are pillaging and plundering funds devoted to religious purposes and objects. I want to join issue on this point with what was said by the hon. and learned Member for Swansea. He said it was simply the application of public funds to public purposes, and he asked, "What objection can you take in matters of principle to the application of public funds for public purposes?" By using the word "public" in the sense he did the hon. and earned Gentleman gave the go-by to the whole argument. These, no doubt, are public funds—public funds devoted and dedicated to specific public objects, and what we complain of is the alienation from those specific public objects of the money devoted to them centuries ago, and which is properly applied at the present moment. What is the public object to which these funds were dedicated centuries ago? I am not now going into matters regarding the continuity of the Church, or matters with regard to which there may be historical differences, but I hope we shall all be agreed that these funds were devoted centuries ago to provide Christian ministration for Christian citizens in every Welsh parish. No one can deny that.
And pensions for the poor.
That is historically wrong. I am dealing here with what was said by the hon. Member for Swansea, because he said that he did not wish to go into the historical aspect of the question. Although I am going into that question, as I could not leave the inaccuracies of the Home Secretary unanswered, I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Swansea that we are not so enormously interested in what happened centuries ago, or in what happened in the times for which the historical annals are unsatisfactory, and do not provide any determinative explanation. You have public funds, devoted to a specific purpose, used, and efficiently used, for that purpose at the present time. I say that it is inconsistent with every equitable doctrine to which he referred, it is inconsistent with the first principles of right and security in matters of property, to alienate funds, particularly trust funds, to purposes other than those to which they have been specifically dedicated. I challenge the hon. and learned Member on that point. He referred to the Endowed Schools Act and the Charitable Trusts Act. He knows perfectly well that the underlying principle of those Acts is that funds are not to be diverted from the purposes to which they have been specifically dedicated, as long as those purposes are in force and the funds can be efficiently used. If you merely say because funds are of a public character that they may be devoted to any public use, you undermine every trust fund of every kind, for every purpose, in this country. I entirely agree that these are trust funds, but where I differ is this. You give a greater security to trust funds and not a less security. The whole object of our legal system has been that where you have trust funds dedicated to a specific purpose, that purpose must be maintained, unless a time comes when either the purpose fails or the funds are not sufficient. To that proposition there is no exception, either in law or equity, or in justice, or in security. On this point I should like to draw a distinction between the Irish precedent and what we are doing to-day. The whole of the Irish precedent was based on the fact that either the funds were not wanted, or that they were being misused as regards the Irish Church. I will give one illustration, amongst many, of the great speeches made on that occasion. I refer to that of Mr. Bright, who was an opponent of the Endowment Fund of the Irish Church. He referred, in his great speech, to a saying of Wycliffe, and he founded his attack on the Irish Church on the principle Wycliffe laid down. What Wycliffe said was:—
I entirely agree with that. Of course, "princes" in that case means the Government, just as we should say that Parliament ought to interfere. That is the test, and the only test, and I disagree with the whole principle laid down by the hon. and learned Member, unless he can make, as his first premise, that there has been anything in the nature of misuse or misapplication of this great fund dedicated so long ago to great religious purposes. On the contrary, the duty of Christian ministration in each parish is being carried out to-day. If there has been a failure, it has not been because the endowments have been too large, but because the endowments have been too small. If one were pleading at the present time for the Church in Wales, one would plead in this sense: That in order to carry out the great duty of the Church there we want more funds, because, with a growing population, the old endowments are no longer sufficient. May I refer to what was said by the Home Secretary. I was astonished at his saying it for the purposes of his argument. He pointed out the large voluntary contributions, in themselves almost as large as the funds derived from endowments. What does that show? It shows that Churchmen in Wales are so cognisant of the insufficiency of the Church endowments, that they provide, out of their own pockets, and under a voluntary system, a sum equal in substance to the whole of the endowments of the Welsh Church. Although I agree with my hon. and learned Friend that we do not want merely historical disquisitions, I must refer to what appears to me the absolute inaccuracy of what was stated by the Home Secretary. The Home Secretary stated that in his view the tithe was a tax imposed by the Government for national purposes. Let me join issue entirely with that statement. First of all, you have to draw a distinction between a tithe which was given for general purposes, and a tithe which was given for parochial purposes. No one who has gone into the history of the matter denies that, I want to join issue with what was said by an hon. Member opposite. I challenge anyone on that side of the House to show that what was called the tri-partite division of the general tithe on the Continent was ever enforced or acknowledged either in Wales or in England.
Will the hon. Member permit me to quote in reply to that?
That has been established from Selden's day down to the present time. It has been established without any question of historical documents or historical accuracy. Let us come to parochial funds.
As the hon. and learned Gentleman has challenged me, does he allege that there was any parochial tithe in Wales before the twelfth century?
No, of course not; nor was there in England.
Does the hon. and learned Member say there was no parochial tithe in England before the twelfth century?
There may be isolated cases. It was during the twelfth century that the parochial system was established in the English Church. I challenge anyone. There may be an isolated case, but I do not know of one. I know of no case of parochial tithe earlier than the commencement of the twelfth century. Some of the earliest cases are towards the commencement of the twelfth century, and, curiously enough, one of the earliest cases of the dedication, undoubtedly by free gift, of parochial tithe is the well-known case of the Church of Hay, in Breconshire. There has been an historical misapprehension on the point. The parochial system was not established in the Church until the twelfth century. Until the parochial system was established it was impossible to have a general system of parochial tithe. Neither in England nor in Wales do you find any trace of a general system of parochial tithe until after the end of the twelfth century, and when you come to the end of the twelfth century there is no shadow of a difference, whether you are dealing with Wales or any other part of England. That is an historical point upon which I shall be astonished if any answer can be made to the statement I am making. This notion, which was developed by the Home Secretary, of any difference as regards the historical origin of tithe in England and Wales, has no foundation in any historical document of any sort.
There is another point which astonished me in the argument of the right hon. Gentleman. Of course it follows where you have made a free gift and the law recognises it, that it is protected in the hands of the donee by legal sanction. You cannot have security without that. It is not that the gift originates or is imposed by law. It is that, as part of a general legal principle, a gift when once given is protected by law, and, under legal sanction, in the hands of the donee. That is not a principle applicable to tithe or to any other particular form of property; it is a principle applicable to the principles of security wherever you have anything like a civilised legal system. I cannot understand the argument which is sometimes put forward that because legal sanction was given to the property of tithe in the hands of the owner therefore the law in this particular case, instead of deciding to "whom the tithe belonged in some way imposed it as a tax upon the people of this country.
Not in this country, but Wales.
I draw no distinction between Wales and England; historically there is no difference. The principle I am applying is not only applicable to Wales, but to every civilised country with a legal system. You cannot have a civilised country with a legal system without protecting money or property in the hands of the person to whom it has been properly assigned. I cannot understand this notion, which I have heard stated more than once, that because legal sanction was given to tithe, which in my opinion originated wholly in free gifts or voluntary appropriation, which had no connection with State action of any sort or kind, and which was given for spiritual purposes only, therefore it is no longer in the nature of a free gift, but has been imposed either by State or legal action. The Home Secretary has developed a system under which he says he is going to take away the old Welsh endowments and yet to preserve money which is now being given from endless endowments in favour of the Welsh dioceses. These funds were given out of common funds, either by Queen Anne's Bounty or by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, because of the extreme poverty of the poor Welsh incumbents in the poor Welsh parishes; in fact, it is their recognition of the inefficiency and poverty of the Welsh endowments as they stand. The proposal is to keep funds which have been given in order to alleviate poverty and at the same time to confiscate the small endowments which constitute the poverty in respect of which you are seeking to give alleviation. Can there be a more unjust principle than that to the Church as a whole? We have not given of our abundance so far as endowments had their origin in English tithes or in English property, but we have shared with our poorer brethren in order that the poor Welsh incumbents and the poor Welsh parishes may have more assistance. Because we have given this assistance those who were already too poor are to be deprived of the wretched maintenance we were giving. I cannot understand any logical principle of that kind. If these endowments ought to be condemned, the same principle applies in England and in Wales. If the Church ought to be disestablished, the same principle applies in England and in Wales, and it is only a mean and paltry way of dealing with a great question of this kind to seek to attack the Church where it is poorest and where the prejudice is thought to be greatest. One cannot help feeling as a Churchman that one is dealing with an enormous question. I believe the Church has built up the moral fibre and the religious feeling of the people of this country.
In Wales?
And in Wales, and it shared that duty with other great Christian Nonconformist bodies, for whom I have the greatest respect, and whom I will never attack. It is the smallest Christian community in Wales, in a hopeless minority, hopelessly poor. I will stand by and protect its endowments against the abstraction of a single farthing. This notion of antagonism on which this attack on the Welsh and English Church is based is, in my opinion wholly out of conformity with true Christian spirit and the true spirit of peace and goodwill. I am certain, from my knowledge of English Churchmen and Welsh Churchmen, that we do not have any feeling either of jealousy or unchari-tableness towards our Nonconformist friends. We want to co-operate; we want to concentrate; we feel strongly that Christianity is being attacked by outside forces, and when we note the real effect of these outside forces the time may come before we are aware of it when the whole doctrine and principles of Christianity may be undermined in this old country of ours. I hope a misfortune of that kind will never come upon it. Those who travel in Italy, France and other countries cannot but acknowledge that Christianity as a system and as a doctrine is on its trial. We in this country, I believe, still have the firmest and finest spirit of religious feeling as compared with any other Continental country. I believe it is the product of our tolerant spirit; I believe it is the product of the charitable co-operation between the Church and Nonconformist bodies, and if we get rid of what has been called this political attack, I hope that in the future we may co-operate still more strongly in affirming the cause of Christianity and working together for the doctrines of Christ.
In the eloquent speech to which we have just listened the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir A. Cripps) travelled over a wide field, and that makes it the more surprising that he made hardly any reference to one circumstance—not a circumstance of doubtful antiquity, not some nicety of legal interpretation, but one present and undisputed circumstance, which, I submit to the House, at any rate requires very close consideration in the discussion of a proposal of this kind. That is the verdict of Wales. Unless we are prepared to throw over altogether the practice and theory of representative government, then I submit that the claim of Wales for the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales is, at any rate, a claim so persistent and so insistent as to deserve more than a passing reference from a lay Church defender. Ever since the Reform Bill of 1884 made it possible for the mass of the Welsh people to express themselves at all until now the verdict of the Welsh people as expressed at the polls and through their representatives is a verdict which for emphasis and for persistence has only one parallel, and that is the verdict of the Irish nation in their demand for Home Rule. Let me point out to the House what the actual facts are, because this matter, whether an important aspect or an unimportant aspect, is capable of being stated accurately, and without unnecessary controversy. The Redistribution Act of 1885 gave Wales thirty-four members, and since that date there have been eight General Elections. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about Monmouthshire."] I mean Wales and Monmouthshire, and I am sure the hon. Member will excuse me when I remind him that Monmouthshire is part of the diocese of Llandaff. When I use for convenience the expression Wales, I include Monmouthshire. There are thirty-four Members returned by that area. There have been eight General Elections since the passing of the Redistribution Act, and though the figures are not exactly the same at each of these elections, there has not been a single election in which the Members returned opposed to Disestablishment have ever reached double figures. You have had in this country very great changes of representation. You have found normal party divisions very considerably shifted with the emotions of peace and war, but you have never had any representation of the Welsh people that even these influences are capable of changing from the persistent determination to demand from this House the Disestablishment of the Church within their own borders. I notice that in 1895 when Welsh Disestablishment was much discussed, the reverend Prelate, who was then Bishop of Bangor, made use of this expression:—
"It might be true that there were very few Conservatives returned for Wales, though, in his opinion, that was due to temporary accident."
The "temporary accident" was very effectively cured in the election of 1906, because instead of thirty-one Liberals and three Conservatives being returned for Wales and Monmouthshire, as there were when the Bishop spoke, the returns were thirty-four Liberals and no Conservatives at all. I admit that the real distinction for this purpose ought not to be Liberal and Conservative. It ought to be between Members who are returned pledged to support Disestablishment and those who are not.
How many Members mentioned Disestablishment in their address?
All.
No.
I cannot give the Noble Lord the figures, but I submit very confidently this to him—and I know that he has studied this matter closely—Welsh Disestablishment has been a prominent and a predominant question at every single General Election.
It was stated not to be an issue in 1906.
I thought so far that we were on common ground, although the importance of the point is a matter as to which people in different parts of the House might differ, but I confess it does not give me very much sympathy with the merits of any other argument put forward by the Opposition against this Bill if we are told that one of their arguments is that the representation of Wales since 1895 does not show an overwhelming majority for the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales. Even the hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees), with his devotion to Unionist principles, was driven in his election address, when contesting Montgomery Boroughs, to say "I am in favour of the Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Church in Wales." Whether the hon. Gentleman has in this matter by any chance changed his opinion we shall probably hear in the course of this Debate. Surely it is hardly worth while for those who put forward with sincerity and conviction what they think a strong case against this proposal to begin by suggesting that representative government in Wales has not shown through its representatives an overwhelming demand for Disestablishment.
Nothing like so overwhelming as you suggest.
How overwhelming it is I will leave the Noble Lord and his Friends to judge by a quotation from the "Church Times," not a very ancient or musty quotation, but a quotation of 24th November, 1911:—
"If Wales were a separate country with a separate legislature, there would hardly be room for any discussion at all. Disestablishment would be effected straight away by an overwhelming majority."
Let the House observe for a moment— hon. Gentlemen opposite I am sure will allow others if they think fit to listen to what I am going to say—that twelve of these thirty-four Welsh and Monmouthshire seats went uncontested, and that three constituencies which at this moment are represented by Members who oppose proposals for the Disestablishment of the Welsh Church, were, one of them, carried by a majority of 299, another by a majority of 54, and the third by a majority of 9.
It was increased.
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman opposite on his narrow escape. Adding those figures together, one gets the total of 362, and the consequence is this, that a change in the casting of 180 votes at the last General Election in Wales and Monmouthshire would once again have produced what happened in 1906, namely, thirty-four Members coming to this House, all, without exception, prepared to vote for and support Disestablishment of the Church in Wales. May I point out further, and nobody knows, it better than hon. Gentlemen opposite—that there is not a single constituency in. Wales and Monmouthshire which has not at some time or other, and more than once, returned Members pledged to this policy. When one considers that, I think I am entitled to put to the good sense and fair judgment of this House and the country this question: Imagine if you can a similar case in England. Supposing that it were true that the English Members of this House in one Parliament, without a single exception had been Members prepared to support a proposal from England of this sort; imagine, if you can, that at another election there had been a small minority of Members the other way; imagine if you can that never at any period since 1885 had there been in this matter a variation from one almost universal and overwhelming demand; can anybody in this House doubt that a demand of that sort would have received confirmation by this House long ago? The real truth is that the demand which is made by the Welsh people for proposals of this kind being carried into law can only be resisted by the method of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, who, to use his own language, when he asked us to "survey the position as it stands to-day," omitted all reference to these significant facts.
I treated England and Wales as one body.
I am sure I do not do the Ion. and learned Gentleman any injustice. It is quite true that he does for this purpose—and I am sure with great sincerity—contend that there is no difference between Wales and England in a matter of this sort. That, of course, he is entitled to do; but it is precisely because we are divided so fundamentally on a matter of that kind that he finds it difficult to understand the strength of the case we submit, just as we find it difficult to follow some of the lines of reasoning of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Let me call attention to one other matter of this kind. I should have thought that those who have considered the electoral victories of "Wales during the last quarter of century must see how it is not possible to doubt that Disestablishment in Wales is bound to come. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I quite understand that some hon. Gentlemen opposite challenge what I say. Let me cite an authority which I am sure they will not treat with contempt. In 1895, after the alliance between the Unionist party and the Conservative party, which, I understand, received its final consummation by the disappearance of both last week—in 1895 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham was actively engaged on behalf of the Unionist party in influencing public opinion and in appealing to the electorate of this country in view of the election then impending. This is what he said on 31st January, 1895, in a letter which he wrote:—
"Disestablishment in Wales must come, and the only question is whether it shall be accompanied by just treatment of the Church in regard to its funds: this can be secured now by the Unionist party, and Churchmen would be wise if they were to urge their members to devote themselves to this part of the subject."
Whatever be the points of difference which exist between that eminent statesman and some of those on this side of the House, we all of us recognise his extreme acuteness in judging a political situation, and nobody opposite will deny that he of all men was qualified to calculate what is likely to befall this country in the near future, and that is his argument based on that calculation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Tariff Reform."] There we had the right hon. Gentleman not when he was a Liberal or a Radical, not when he was a free lance in this House, but when he was in active alliance and co-operation with the Unionist party, not only asserting that Disestablishment in Wales is bound to come, but further indicating to the electorate in Wales that it would be secured now by the Unionist party. In so far as the case depends upon the demand made by Wales through her accredited representatives, I submit no stronger case has ever been made at any time to any Legislature. But, of course, I recognise that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite take the view that, however strong that demand may be, their argument would still be good. The hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke last gave us his view, and he agreed with the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) when he said that he thought that the Disestablishment and the severing of the link between Church and State was an even more serious matter than Disendowment. For my part, I entirely recognise the sincerity with which that is said, and I desire, for my own part, entirely to repudiate the suggestion that those who attack our policy in this matter are merely actuated by money-grubbing motives. I do not claim to speak for Churchmen, but I think I understand sufficient of the opposition of many devoted Churchmen to realise that it is not affectation with them and with the hon. and learned Gentlemen and the Noble Lord when they say that it is the Disestablishment portion of this Bill they take exception and object to. May I suggest to the hon. and learned Gentleman on this question how far is he prepared to go about it in his view that majorities and minorities are matters of very small importance in this affair. He would apparently contend that even though the verdict of Wales was repeated again and again, still he would think his argument against this Bill in no whit diminished in force and validity. Is there to be no limit to that? Do I understand that he claims that, supposing the Episcopal community, the Church of England in a certain period lost substantially all its adherents and became wholly out of sympathy with the community in which it lived by the admission of everybody, including its own supporters, that even then—
Of course, the minority might be so small that it might be of no utility, but this is a different matter altogether.
If that is the view let me point out that the argument which was used by the hon. and learned Gentleman and by the Noble Lord is really an argument which turns on a confusion of two ideas. They say, and I am sure say with complete sincerity, they regard Disestablishment with so much distress, and they oppose it so vehemently because, in their view, it involves the cutting off and the destroying of the recognition by the State of religion. What the hon. Gentleman really means is that the particular community which historically in this country has in the past been established is a community which is entitled in his view to remain established as long as it is a substantial and predominant community. That is a perfectly distinct proposition from that which he professed to be urging, namely, that independently of majorities or of minorities, the historical Church of England was still entitled to remain with its State connection. The Noble Lord told us that in his view the Disestablishment proposals of this Bill involved the breaking of the connection between the national life and religion. I think they were his exact words.
Rather between the State as such and religion.
Between the State as such and religion. If the hon. Member means by religion the Established Church of England, it is perfectly immaterial whether its adherents be many or few. If, on the other hand, you reach a point in the community where as a matter of fact it does not represent the predominant temper or the predominant view of the community, the idea that you are preserving the connection between the community and religion by preserving the establishment of the Church of England surely only needs to be stated to be disproved. The real truth is that that which is valuable in the connection between the national life and religion, is not a thing which can be created by an Act of Parliament, nor is it a thing which can be taken away by an Act of Parliament. But hon. Members opposite and those who speak in vigorous defence of the Established Church say that they recognise the Nonconformist bodies of the land as their religious equals. They are thereby impliedly conceding the whole contention upon which the argument for Establishment must be founded. Because the argument for Establishment can be perfectly well founded on the view that the Church of England stands in a position of superiority to other religious bodies, and as such is properly included in the Church connection, but it is quite inconsistent with that view that Nonconformist opinion stands on a religious level with, the opinion of the Episcopal community. Then you lose the one and only reason why a body like the Church of England should be established whereas other bodies are not. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Presbyterian Church is established."]
What about the Scottish position?
I am very sorry, but the Scottish position, though very important and interesting, is one to which I do not propose for the moment to address my remarks. I turn now to the other part of the matter—important as everybody agrees, though, as the hon. and learned Gentleman contends, not so important as Disestablishment—that is, the case for Disendowment. I agree with the Noble Lord that discussions as to the precise origin of this or that endowment, admittedly ancient and customarily paid, are not really of the essence of the case. I do not say that from any fear of going into the question, because, as far as that is concerned, I hardly think it lies in the mouth of those who in this Debate defend the Establishment in Wales to be too dogmatic on the subject. As the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University knows, at any rate in one reading of the terms of reference the Commission of which he was a Member were directed to inquire into the origin of these very ancient endowments. I do not quarrel with the conclusion to which the Commission came, so long as we recognise what that conclusion was. The very first object to which they were invited to direct their inquiry was the origin of the temporalities and other property of the Church of England, and they say in their Report—and give good reasons for it:— But I think I can put from my point of view, and from the point of view of many Liberals here, what is essential to the historic side of this case. It does not turn on any mere legal technicality. On the other hand, as we believe, it does fair justice to the realities of the case. It is this: I contrast, and I invite the House to contrast, the position which the Established Church of England occupied in Wales before the Reformation, and at the times when her ancient endowments came to her, with the position which she occupies today. I take no part, and never will, either here or elsewhere, in sneering allusions to that Church. What I am going to say is not to exacerbate feeling on the opposite side of the House, or to induce enthusiasm on this. It is a contrast which I think is the substance of the matter, and which I present to the House for consideration. If you go back to ancient times you "will find that the Church of England, in Wales as elsewhere, was really the community in its religious aspect. It was unrivalled, homogeneous, co-extensive with the life of the people. It was to that body, and to that aspect that these ancient endowments, by whatever means, came. Contrast that with the position to-day. I do not dispute for a moment that you may have a legal title which might be traced by lawyers like my hon. Friend opposite—a title for the historical continuity of the Church, but what do I find? I find that instead of a body which was really the community in its religious aspect, and which took upon itself not only the teaching of religion, but to do work which is now carried on by guardians of the poor, the Board of Education, and the universities—I find in place of that one of several religious organisations; a body which itself admits that these religious organisations are its spiritual equals, a body which is constrained to admit that the origin of those other organisations was largely due to the departure from the Church of those who would have been willing to remain as its ministers. I ask myself whether it is reasonable that any ancient endowments given to that body in a mediœval aspect should really with a legal title be reserved for one body as distinguished from the community as a, whole which it once served. I have endeavoured to state the position in language that will create no illfeeling, because I think it is capable of being so stated. I say on the one hand that these en- dowments were once administered by a body which was unrivalled and homogeneous and the exponent of religion for the nation as a whole—it was the community in its religious aspect, dealing with funds which had come into its hands for a large variety of national as well as religious purposes.
I contrast the position that the Church in Wales is now one of a number of religious denominations with education, charities, and universities, independently financed so far as its funds go. It is a Church which, in the opinion of a great Churchman, who certainly spoke with much tenderness of the Church in Wales, is "a Church after all of the few as against the Church of the many," and, in the view of Mr. Gladstone, "the Church of the rich as against the Church of the poor." There is opposed to that argument the contention, and no doubt, so far as it goes, the well-founded contention, that they trace their title by what would be recognised as good and solid in a Court of Law. The observation I make is this, that even if that is to be admitted, I find it impossible to admit that the title could be so traced or would so exist if it had not been for the fact of the State connection. I cannot bring myself to think that so little importance is to be attached to the fact of the State connection as is involved in the argument of those who treat Church property as if it were private property for the purposes of the Church, as though it were a kind of private property, some private trust which could be maintained in a Court of Law without any relation to the State connection. I think those who defend the Church would be acting more candidly if they were to concede that it is the position of the Church as the great historic Church of England which has left it in the different position, as opposed to other religious bodies, in which it finds itself from the point of view of endowment. If that is so the proposition which I submit to the House is that Disestablishment being bound to come, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamberlain) said that it has been bound to come since seventeen years ago, and nothing having happened in the electoral representation of Wales in the interval to change the position, the real question that arises, and it is the important question, is what is the' proper way to deal with the endowments of this established Church. My contention is that ancient endowments, which were originally given for the good of all may, without injustice, be dealt with when they come to be enjoyed by one quarter of the community. In saying that I do not put myself forward or pretend to put myself forward, as a Churchman. I am conscious that those who are not Churchmen, however much they may strive to avoid it, may speak in this matter in a way which raises strife and bad feeling. Since raising strife is one of the charges which the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord Robert Cecil) brought against those who introduced the Bill, may I point out that it is not we who raise the matter in order to force it upon the people of Wales. The people of Wales have demanded legislation of this kind for a quarter of a century against those who in times past introduced the cause of strife in the Principality.
So long as Churchmen held the view, which undoubtedly they once held, that they were in some sense a superior body, that Nonconformists were no doubt, very decent people, but belonged to an inferior caste, I could appreciate the argument that the Church in Wales should continue to be established, and in connection with the State. But I do Churchmen the justice to say that they now repudiate that attitude, and they recognise that not only is the Nonconformist an honest man, but that his religious spirit is equally good, and they further recognise that the things which bind Christians together are infinitely more important than the things which divide them. If that is true, then in a community which so constantly and persistently demands Disestablishment it is bound to come, and when this is done, instead of thereby creating strife yon are allaying it. Hon. Gentlemen opposite sometimes speak in not too kindly a spirit of the political activities of Nonconformist ministers. I agree that while a minister, in my view, is entitled, and is indeed bound to exercise his duty as a citizen even in a matter of controversy, it is unfortunate that matters of controversy, especially those which touch so closely the real convictions of honest people when they have a political aspect, should be dealt with in close association with religious activities. The way to stop that is to get rid of the cause which makes every Nonconformist minister the natural -champion of the nation of whom he is speaking. As long as the Church is unable to claim that it represents the community as a whole, and as long as it refuses to recognise that, it is making the Nonconformist minister in every village in Wales the person who represents, and has a right to represent, what is the real national demand on behalf of the nation of which he is a part. Exactly the same thing happened in Ireland. The denial of Home Rule in Ireland has made the parish priest the natural champion of the Nationalist cause, and the real way in which strife may be avoided and antagonism between different religious communities may be lessened and got rid of, is not by persisting in a situation which does not correspond to the true division of religious feeling in the Principality, but by recognising that Disestablishment is bound to come and ought to be accompanied by a reasonable and generous measure of Disendowment. It is because I believe that this Bill conforms with those principles that, for my part, I support it and commend it to the House.
I beg to Move "That the Debate be now adjourned."'
Question put, and agreed to.
Debate to be resumed on Thursday, 25th instant.
Light Railways [Special Advances]
Considered in Committee.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to increase the amount which may be expended for the purpose of Special Advances under the Light Railways Act, 1896, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to continue and amend the Light Railways Act, 1896.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]
I gather this is a Bill for promoting light railways in various parts of the country, and what I want specially to ascertain from the Government is what the liability is likely to be in connection with this undertaking.
I think that the hon. Member must not discuss the Bill. This is a Resolution which authorises the expenditure of certain money which is in the Bill. The hon. Member is allowed to discuss whether or not this money should be granted, but he must confine his arguments to that point.
That really was the object with which I rose. I would press the Government to place before the House not only the considerations which promote this Resolution, but also some guidance as to the amount which it may involve. I understand some specific amount is likely to be required under the Resolution. I should therefore be glad to be informed by the Minister in charge what is that amount.
The amount allotted for the purpose of Government advances under the original Act was £250,000. That money could be put forward in two ways under two Clauses. Under Clause 4 the Treasury was entitled to advance money on loan for the purpose of light railways, and under Clause 5 it was entitled to give money either by free Grant or on loan, the idea being that if it could be repaid well and good, but if it could not it could be given as a Grant. The greater part of that sum of £250,000 has been expended. There is only a sum of £20,000 left. It is found the bulk of it has been advanced by way of free Grant. The total amount advanced on loan under Clause 4 is only some £70,000, the bulk of the money having been advanced in the way of Grants, and the number of cases which already have had Grants being much greater than those that can be helped by simple loans, it seems clear if the usefulness of the Light Railways Act were to be extended at all, it could best be done by extending the facilities for Grants from the Treasury. The purpose of this Resolution is to increase the total sum that can be advanced in that way from £250,000 to £750,000. Another half million and no more will be available now for expenditure in this way, not only, of course, by Grant, but by Grant and by loan.
I understand the amount now proposed is £750,000. There remains £20,000 of the previous Grant: Will that be in addition to the £750,000?
I should have explained a certain number of Grants are under consideration, and not yet advanced. The money would be very soon exhausted. The total amount will simply be £750,000.
Including the £20,000?
Yes, including all.
Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House as to the probable proportion between Grants and the distribution of the money in other ways? It appears the original intention was that part of the money should be expended as the hon. Member has mentioned and partly by Grant, but the first undertaking in reference to it seems to be more or less overlooked, and the money seems to have been expended almost entirely in Grants. Is that principle going to apply to this, larger and more important sum, or will it, be disposed of according to the original intentions of Parliament, partly in that way and partly in Grants?
It is the fact that nearly the whole money has been given in Grants, but a considerable sum has also been advanced on loan.
And, it being Eleven of the Clock, the Chairman left the chair to make his report to the House.
Committee report progress; to sit again to-morrow.
Post Office Servants (Wages and Conditions of Employment)
Ordered that a Select Committee of nine Members be appointed to inquire into the Wages and other Conditions of Employment of the principal classes of Post Office Servants, of the unestablished sub-postmasters, and of such of the smaller classes as the Committee may think necessary; and, having regard to the conditions and prospects of their employment, and, as far as may be, to the standard rate of Wages and the position of other classes of workers, to report what alterations, if any, are desirable:
Ordered that Mr. Boyton, Mr. Brady, Mr. Dawes, Mr. France, Mr. Gilmour, Mr. Holt. Mr. M'Callum, Mr. Orde-Powlett, and Mr. Tyson Wilson be Members of the Select Committee:
Ordered that the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:
Ordered that four be the quorum.—[ Mr. Gulland: ]
Adjourned at Fire minutes after Eleven o'clock.