Skip to main content

Commons Chamber

Volume 37: debated on Wednesday 24 April 1912

House of Commons

Wednesday, April 24, 1912

Private Business

Taff Vale Railway Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Dublin and South-Eastern Railway Bill and Dublin and South-Eastern Railway (New Works) Bill.

Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Dublin and South-Eastern Railway Bill and the Dublin and South-Eastern Railway (New Works) Bill that they have power, if they think fit, to consolidate the said two Bills or any part or parts thereof respectively into one Bill.—[ The Deputy-Chairman. ]

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill.

"To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to Dublin (two), Dungarvan, the rural districts of Belfast, Carlow, and Larne, and the Taghmaconnell Joint Burial Board." Presented by Mr. BIRRELL; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 167.]

Scunthorpe Urban District Water Bill

Petition for additional Provision; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Army (Annual) Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Manchester Royal Exchange, Limited, to acquire lands for the enlargement of the Exchange; to make provisions with regard to the constitution and regulation of the company and the conversion of the ordinary stock of the company; and for other purposes."—[Manchester Royal Exchange Bill [ Lords. ]

Manchester Royal Exchange Bill [ Lords ]

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Railway Returns (Preliminary Statement)

Copy presented of Return relating to the Railways of the United Kingdom for the year 1911 (Preliminary Statement) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Public Records

Copy presented of Seventy-third Annual Report of the Deputy-Keeper of the Public Records [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Explosions (Blackbeck, Lancashire)

Copy presented of Report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the circumstances attending an Explosion which occurred on 14th December, 1911, in the Gunpowder Factory of Messrs. F. C. Dickson and Company, at Blackbeck, Lancashire [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Aliens (Naturalisation)

Return presented relative thereto-[Address 10th April; Mr. Ellis Griffith ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 103.]

Public Departments (Scotland and Ireland)

Return presented relative thereto, [ordered 14th December, 1911; Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson ]; to lie upon the Take, and to be printed. [No 104.]

Board of Agriculture and Fisheries

Copy presented of Report on Experiments in the Cultivation of Sugar Beet: in 1911 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

ANCIENT MONUMENTS PROTECTION (No. 2) BILL

Order for Second Reading upon Wednesday next read, and discharged: Bill withdrawn.

Oral Answers to Questions

Royal Navy

Insurance Risks

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether all the marine insurance companies on the approved list for Admiralty risks have their head office in London; and, if not, how many are provincial?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. The head offices of six of the companies on the approved list are situated in the provinces.

Clerical Work

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty for information showing the distribution of the clerical work allotted to the staff of his Department; and whether certain higher division clerks in the secretariat of the Admiralty are, or have been, in receipt of annual allowances as private secretaries to members of the Board, although not actually employed as such?

A detailed statement showing the nature of the work allotted to each member of the clerical staff of the Admiralty would entail the expenditure of much time and labour, but I can assure my hon. Friend that the more important clerical work devolves on the members of the directing staff, and the less important and routine work on-the subordinate staff of the Department. As regards the second part of the question, three higher division clerks are at the present time in receipt of an allowance for acting in the place of assistant principal clerks serving as private secretaries to members of the Board.

Accountant-General

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the hired accountant clerks, appointed temporarily to the department of the Accountant General of the Navy without any educational test, under a system of patronage which has now been abandoned, are considered to be senior in position to the assistant clerks now being appointed to the establishment of that department after open competitive examination; and, if so3 whether he will furnish the reasons for such an attitude.

The two classes are treated as quite distinct, and it is, therefore, considered that no question of seniority arises.

Assistant Secretary for Finance

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will explain why, seeing that there was already in existence an Accountant-General of the Navy, an assistant secretary for finance duties has been appointed to the Admiralty; whether he can furnish any information as to the duties performed by this new official; the number of papers with which he deals on an average every day; whether these papers could be dealt with in the ordinary course either by the recently appointed additional Civil Lord, the Accountant-General of the Navy, or the Assistant Permanent Secretary of the Admiralty; and whether the individual appointed to the new post in question was private secretary to the late First Lord and, in obtaining the position, passed over the heads of several principal clerks who were senior to him?

Since the appointment in question was gazetted, I have been giving personal consideration to the financial arrangements of the Admiralty, and have in the meantime suspended the instructions detailing this officer's duties. Meanwhile he has been employed on special work under the direction of my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and myself. I anticipate that the final arrangements will shortly be concluded.

Torpedo Boats and Destroyers

asked whether it is the intention of the Admiralty under the new destroyer organisation to base fifty torpedo boats and destroyers manned only with nucleus crews on Harwich, and Rosyth; whether there are any facilities at these places for the rapid completion of the complements to full numbers; and, if not, whether the arrangements necessary for that purpose will be made?

The hon. Member may rest assured that the particular problem to which his question refers has been and will be fully borne in mind. It would not be in the public interest to state the details.

"Dreadnoughts."

asked what was the total number of ships of the "Dreadnought" type built, building, or to be laid down in the financial year 1912–13 for Great Britain on the one hand and for Germany, Italy, and Austria on the other?

The information asked for is as follows: Great Britain-built, twelve battleships and four battle-cruisers; building, ten battleships and six battle cruisers, including one battle-cruiser building for the Commonwealth of Australia; to be laid down in the financial year 1912–13, four large armoured ships. Germany—built, seven battleships and two battle-cruisers; building, nine battleships and three battle-cruisers; to be laid down in financial year 1912–13, one battleship and one battle-cruiser. Italy—Built, none; building, five battleships; to be laid down in financial year 1912–13, one battleship, but it has also been reported in the Press that two more battleships will probably be laid down this year. Austria-Hungary—built, none; building, four battleships; to be laid down in financial year 1912–13, none.

Do not these figures show that while Great Britain has built, is building, or is to lay down in 1912–13 a total of thirty-six such ships, the Triple Alliance has a total of thirty-five?

I can add up the totals, but I consider that to draw conclusions from or comment on them would take us beyond the limits permissible at Question Time.

Are these ships which are said to be now building by Austro-Hungary and Italy the same ships that figured in the scare speeches four years ago?

asked how many completed ships of the "Dreadnought" type will be possessed by France, Italy, and Austria, respectively, at the end of 1914, according to the calculations of the Admiralty?

The numbers are—France 10, Italy 4. We have no official information as to when the four ships now building for Austria-Hungary will be completed, but it is thought three of them will be completed by the end of 1914.

Royal Dockyards (Establishment)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that in 1906–7 the number of men on the establishment in the Royal dockyards was about 25 per cent, of the total number employed, and that in 1911–12 it was only about 17 per cent.; and whether he could see his way to recommend that the strength of the establishment should be restored to a quarter of the total number of men employed?

The percentages stated are approximately correct. I am not prepared to give the undertaking asked for in the second part of the question.

asked whether it is proposed to increase the number of men who are borne on establishment in the Royal dockyards; and, if so, at what date and in what proportions?

As I have already stated in reply to the question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for the Bodmin Division of Cornwall, I am not prepared to give an undertaking in regard to an increase in the establishment.

Do I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the number of the establishment is settled by the Naval Estimates?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two years ago the number given in the Estimates was increased by a considerable number shortly afterwards?

Indian Troopships "Assaye" and "Plassy."

asked how many boats are carried by the Indian troopships "Assaye" and "Plassy"; what is the greatest number of troops accommodated on each ship; and for what percentage are boats or rafts provided for use in the event of a disaster to the ship?

For some years past boat accommodation has been provided in all transports, both Indian and Imperial, for every soul on board. The "Assaye" has not been employed as a transport since February, 1908, but the following particulars are given of two typical ships employed during the trooping season just ended, namely, "Plassy," belonging to the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company, and "Rohilla," belonging to the British India Steam Navigation Company. Total number of passengers and crew accommodated on board the "Plassy," 1,681; number of boats provided, 33—including one steam launch; seating capacity of boats, 1,687. Total number of passengers and crew accommodated on board "Rohilla," 1,731; number of boats provided, 34—including one steam launch; seating capacity of boats, 1,786. There are no rafts on board transports.

Is it not a fact that the number of boats provided for them is in excess of the minimum number required by the Board of Trade regulations?

The number of boats provided as a minimum in the regulations of the Board of Trade for a ship of 10,000 tons is not nearly so high as the number of boats for 1,600 people, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned just now.

South Atlantic (Number of Ships)

asked how many ships of the Royal Navy, and of what class, were in the South Atlantic (south of an imaginary line drawn from Demerara to Tangier) on 16th March last?

"Glasgow," second class cruiser (Monte Video); "Hermes," second class cruiser (Simonstown); "Pandora," third class cruiser (at sea north of Capetown).

Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that that is enough to protect the great amount of shipping which is bringing foodstuffs into this country?

Yes, I think so, having regard to the general distribution of His Majesty's Fleet.

Government Contracts (Cammell, Laird, and Company)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if his attention has been directed to the case of Messrs. Cammell, Laird and Company, of Birkenhead, who have refused to pay advance of wages with other firms in the district, and who are engaged on Government contracts; and, if so, what action he proposes to take in the matter?

The question raised by my hon. Friend is already engaging my attention. I am, however, not yet in a position to announce the result of the inquiries that are being made.

Questions

Congo State (Foreign Conventions)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Articles 3 and 4 of the Convention between Germany and the Congo State are still operative in the Belgian administration of the Congo territories; whether the same rights guaranteed to that Power were also accorded to other Powers whose territories border on the Congo State; and whether the treaties which provide for those rights are still in force?

The rights accorded by Article 3 of the German Convention were also provided for in the Conventions with Great Britain, France, and Portugal, which are the Powers whose territories border on: the Congo State. The provisions of Article 4 are reproduced in the Convention with Great Britain, and the Conventions with France and Portugal contain most-favoured-nation clauses. All the Conventions are, so far as I am aware, still in force.

Hong Kong and Straits Settlements

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state, what steps were taken by the Colonial Office before making the changes in the regulations to ascertain the views of non-European British subjects in Hong Kong, the Straits Settlements, and the Federated Malay States with regard to the proposal to exclude from the civil and police services all persons who are not of pure European descent on both sides?

I have informed my hon. Friend on several occasions that the alteration in the regulation which has been made during my tenure of office consisted solely of the introduction of a few words to remove a possible ambiguity. It was obviously unnecessary to consult the Colony before taking this step. I gather that the Secretary of State, who sanctioned the alteration made in 1904, did not consider it necessary to consult non-European British subjects in the Colonies and States referred to, and, indeed, I do not see how it would have been possible for him to do so.

Is it not the case that the right hon. Gentleman told me the changes were made on the representations of non-British subjects, and, if he made changes on the representations of subjects of non-British birth, why will he not take steps to consult them?

I am afraid there is some confusion between my hon. Friend and myself in regard to the matter.

asked whether the Secretary for the Colonies will give the names of the principals of the leading schools in the Straits Settlements who were in favour of the abolition of the Queen's scholarships, which have enabled many promising native students to complete their education at the universities in this country, and also of the one principal who was not in favour of the abolition of these scholarships; what was the annual cost of these scholarships; and to what specific purposes is the money now being devoted?

I am not in possession of the information asked for in the first part of this question. The annual cost varied, but when both scholarships were in existence it amounted roughly to £2,000. The savings which have been effected by the abolition of the scholarships have made it possible to expend more money on the institution of normal classes, on grants to aided schools for commercial scholarships and generally on the encouragement of secondary education.

Will the right hon Gentleman obtain for the information of this House the names of the schoolmasters who recommended the abolition of these scholarships?

Without any consideration of the question as to whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks them important or not, will he obtain the names for the benefit of those Members of the House who do consider them important?

Hindu Festivals

asked which of the public holidays in the following list, namely, New Year's Day, the Chinese New Year, Good Friday and Easter, Whit Monday, Christmas, the two bank holidays in August, Hari Raia Puasa, Hari Raia Haji, the birthday of the King-Emperor, or the birthdays of the local Sultans, represent the provision that has been made for the religious festivals of Hindus in the Federated Malay States; whether the observation of the Hindu festival of Tai-pusûm as a bank holiday in the Straits Settlements is confined to the Settlement of Penang only; and, whether, in view of the large numbers of Hindus in the Federated Malay States and Straits Settlements, the right hon. Gentleman will cause the Tai-pûsum festival to be observed as a holiday throughout these territories or the Dipavali festival in October?

The answer to the first part of the question is "none"; the answer to the second is in the affirmative. I do not propose to take any action in the matter. If the Hindu communities in the Straits Settlements or Federated Malay States desire that one of their religious festivities should be declared a general holiday, they will no doubt make representations to the local governments, with whose discretion I am not prepared to interfere.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state why the Tai-pûsum festival as a bank holiday is confined to one small part of the Straits Settlements?

I believe it is confined to the part where it is most often celebrated.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how it can be celebrated in other parts if no time is allowed for it?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are over 60,000 Hindus in the Straits Settlements and only very few Christians, and that he has provided four holidays to suit the needs of the Christians and not one for the benefit of the many thousands of hard working Indian subjects of the Crown?

I would like to give as many holidays as I possibly could to everybody, but without further consideration I could not say with regard to the Tai-pûsum festival.

All-British Halifax-Bermuda Cable

asked whether the Government has had in consideration the scheme proposed at the conference at Ottawa for the extension of the All-British Halifax-Bermuda cable to Barbados, British Guiana, and Trinidad; and, if so, what is the course it intends to pursue?

I understand that the subject of telegraphic communication was discussed, but I have not as yet received the report of the discussion. It would, therefore, be premature to consider action at present.

Mineral Rights Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the basis on which the Mineral Bights Duty is payable by proprietors of mineral royalties in Scotland differs from that applied to proprietors in England; whether in the result the Scotsman is taxed relatively higher than the Englishman; and, if so, whether he can see his way to removing this difference of treatment?

:The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It is proposed to deal with the matter by legislation.

Estimates Committee

asked whether it would be a question of policy under the Estimates Committee set up last week, and therefore excluded from their action, that obsolete war vessels when sold by this country have attached to them a breaking-up condition which greatly reduces their price?

It will rest primarily with the Committee to interpret the Resolution of the House in the light of last week's Debate, and I do not think I should at this stage state my own view as to my hon. Friend's question.

Land Valuation

asked whether, in making separate valuations of two adjoining parts of an occupation in accordance with the owner's requirements under Section 26 (1) of The Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, where there are buildings on one. of such parts but not on the other, valuers have been instructed to ascertain the site value of the one unit of valuation as if it were divested of the buildings upon it, and to ascertain the site value of the other unit as if the adjoining land were not so divested of buildings; and whether, in making such valuations where the parts of an occupation are situate at a distance from each other, the valuers' instructions are the same or different?

As regards the first part of the question, no specific instructions have been issued to valuers on the point, but the practice is in accordance with the hon. Member's suggestion. It is immaterial whether the parts of an occupation are contiguous or not.

National Insurance Act

Scottish Commission

asked whether the appointment of chairman to the Scottish Insurance Commission was ever offered to an official of the Royal Bank of Scotland?

There were various negotiations in connection with this appointment, but I do not think it advisable to disclose details of communications of this character.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that in dealing with the question it would have been fairer to me to have given both sides of the argument?

I do not know what the Noble Lord is referring to. I gave a great deal of detail relating to the statement of the Noble Lord.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not understand that I mean he referred to those parts of the argument which suited himself, but not those parts which suited me?

Friendly Societies' Alliance

asked whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention has been called to the fact that no member of the Friendly Societies' Alliance has been placed upon the Advisory Committee; and, having regard to the fact that this organisation represents 300,000 members whose interests are vitally affected by the administration of the National Insurance Act, he will take steps to insure representatives of this body being placed upon the Committee?

The English Commission have invited two representatives of the Friendly Societies' Medical Alliance to join the Advisory Committee to the Commission, and both these gentlemen have expressed their willingness to serve.

London General Omnibus Company

asked whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer is aware that the London General Omnibus Company are questioning their employés as to the particular society they wish to be their approved society under the Insurance Act; and whether, in view of his statements during the passage of the Act through this House that the choice of employed persons would be free and without the knowledge of the employers, he proposes to take any steps to prevent such action on the part of employers?

I have no information as to the alleged action referred to. It is explicitly laid down in the National Insurance Act that the employés of any company shall not be required as a condition of employment to belong to any employer's fund, and that members of such a fund shall not be forbidden to transfer to other approved societies. I will inquire into any case in which I have evidences that these conditions are being violated.

Tuberculosis Committee

asked if the Committee to be; appointed under the tuberculosis Sections of the National Insurance Act will include a veterinary surgeon to enable the question of bovine tuberculosis in connection, with mankind to be especially considered?

I do not understand what Committee the hon. Member has in mind. The Committee on Tuberculosis, which was appointed some weeks ago, has practically concluded its work, and I hope its Report will be presented to the House in a few days' time.

May I ask if this question of bovine tuberculosis will be covered by the Report of the Committee?

I am not quite sure what the terms of reference were, and perhaps the hon. Member will give notice of the question.

It is most important that the Report should be rapidly placed before the House.

Examination Tor Typists (Scotland)

asked, the Secretary to the Treasury, (1) with, reference to the recent examination for typists, under the provisions of the National Insurance Act for Scotland, if he will state the names of the schools that received nominations from Mr. James. Leishman, the Chairman of the Commissioners; the number of nominations given and candidates that entered for the examination in each case; the names of the outside offices and similar information in respect of them; and the number of other applicants who received nominations, in view of the fact that eighteen, entered for the examination, of whom three were disqualified for age; and (2) the names of the schools or outside offices, that returned the six winning candidates, at the recent examination for typists in Edinburgh, in the latter case or if the candidate was an outside applicant the name of the office and the school in which the typist was originally trained; and whether the three who were disallowed for age were from schools, outside offices, or were; separate applicants?

The schools which received invitations to submit candidates for the examination were McAdams' Commercial Training Institution, three; Whiteley's Business College, two; Reid's Typewriting Bureau, the Remington Typewriting Company, Skerry's College, Miss Wilkie's and Miss Paton's Typewriting establishments, one each. Nominees from all these establishments sat for the examination, except those from Miss Paton's and from Reid's. Of the others who sat two were employed in the offices of Messrs. Brodie and Sons, one at the College of Art, Edinburgh, one by Messrs. Thomas Nelson and Co., one by Messrs. Menzies and Thomson, one was temporarily employed in the office of the Scottish Commission, and one was acting as private secretary to her father. Two of the candidates, who were disqualified by age and did not sit, were employed in the offices of Messrs. Davidson Byrne, Messrs. Young and Falconer; the third was the nominee of Reid's Typewriting Bureau. The six candidates who obtained highest places in the Civil Service examination were previously employed by Messrs. J. C. Brodie and Sons (two), the College of Art, Edinburgh, Messrs. W. J. Graham, the Scottish Insurance Commission, the Rev. P. R. Mackay. Two of these were trained by Whiteley's Business College and Adams' Commercial Training Institution. The remaining four had been at Leish-man's School at various periods; in no case within two years of the examination. I may add, as these questions are obviously intended as a personal charge against the Chairman of the Scottish Commission, that he neither has now, nor had he when these nominations were made, any connection whatever with the last-mentioned school. He neither has, nor had then, any money invested in the business, nor any interest in it as an active, dormant, sleeping, or any other kind of partner.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the question I have asked was in view of the subsequent Debate in order to elicit the facts?

I thought the Noble Lord would have been satisfied with the Debate we had last Thursday.

Appointment of Commissioners

asked the (Secretary to the Treasury if any of the National Insurance Commissioners, including chairmen, have been appointed under Section 4 of the Superannuation Act of 1859 and, if so, which; if all the remaining Commissioners have been appointed under Clause 7 of the Order in Council of January, 1910; if any of the appointments are definitely fixed for a limited number of years; and if all the Commissioners, chairmen included, are pensionable?

The four chairmen are the only Insurance Commissioners who are pensionable as such, though Mr. Bradbury and Mr. Robertson are pensionable Civil servants in respect of their permanent appointments as a principal clerk in the Treasury and Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies respectively. The office of chairman of each of the four Commissions was placed under Section 4 of the Superannuation Act, 1859, without addition of years by Treasury Minute of 2nd January last, which was laid before Parliament on 16th February. The other Commissioners hold their offices for a fixed number of years (in most cases five). The, appointments held by them were placed under Schedule B of the Order in Council of 10th January, 1910, by Gazette notice of 9th January, 1912, and they are, therefore, exempt from the necessity of obtaining Civil Service certificates.

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why the chairmen of the respective Commissions should have been, made pensionable, and why other Commissioners were called upon to forfeit pension rights of which they were in. possession?

I am not aware that any Commissioners were called upon to, forfeit pension rights, or that any complaint has been made by any of them on the point or as to such a condition being laid down. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would communicate with me.

The hon. Gentleman has not answered why the chairmen should have been pensioned and why the other members of the Commission should not.

The other members were only appointed for five years and you could hardly give pension rights for five years to young men. I should have thought that was obvious.

Questions

Minus Valuations

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the total number of provisional valuations which had resulted in minus quantities by the 1st of April; what was the largest minus quantity arrived at by that date; and what is the amount of Increment Value Duty which had been assessed by that date in respect of any increase in value below zero?

The information required by the hon. Member will take some time to collate, but I am giving instructions that it be procured with as little delay as possible.

Is it not the fact that all those minus valuations only occurred in assessable site value, and not in full site value?

Does the right hon. Gentleman desire me to put down a question at a later date?

If the hon. Member thinks there is any undue delay I would not object at all to being reminded of it.

Swine Fever

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the fact that outbreaks of swine fever have ceased in the Spalding district; and, if so, whether he will remove all restrictions on the sale of pigs in the Spalding market.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD
(Mr. Herbert Lewis, for the President of the Board of Agriculture)

No fewer than thirteen outbreaks of swine fever have occurred in the Parts of Holland Division of Lincolnshire since the 14th ultimo, and, in view of the fact that a considerable quantity of pigs are; sent to Spalding market from that Division, the existing restrictions could hot with safety be modified at the present time.

Forestry Development

asked what are the exact areas into which it is proposed to divide the country for the purposes of forestry development; and what are the several institutions to which Grants are being made by the Board for advisory purposes, and the mode of allotment between them of the above areas respectively?

The institutions to which Grants have been provisionally offered are the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge; the Armstrong College, Newcastle-on-Tyne; the University College of North Wales, Bangor; and the Royal Agricultural College, Cirencester. The areas to be associated with these institutions respectively have not yet been defined On this point I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him on the 16th of this month.

Fishery Board (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that under the Sea Fisheries Regulation Act, 1895, it is enacted that the Scottish Fishery Board shall consist of seven members, of whom one shall be chairman, one shall be sheriff of a county in Scotland, a third shall be skilled in the branches of science concerned with the habits and food of fishes, and four members shall be representatives of various sea-fishing interests of Scotland; whether the present constitution of the Scottish Fishery Board complies with these statutory requirements; and whether he can state what are the interests represented respectively by each of the four members associated with the representation of the various sea-fishing interests?

The Statute provides that in addition to the chairman, the sheriff, and the scientific member, there shall be "four members who shall be representative of the various sea fishing interests of Scotland." The expression "fishing interests" is further defined in the Statute. I am informed that the provisions of the Statute were in view when the appointments were made, and that the members were carefully selected as being within the terms of the Act genuinely representative of the various sea fishing interests; and I am of opinion that the constitution of the Board complies with the statutory requirements.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to secure the direct representation of genuine fishermen on the Fishery Board?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of the men recently appointed were new to the Board, and how many have been on it from time immemorial?

North of Scotland Agricultural College

asked the Secretary for Scotland, whether he is aware of a proposal to let the shooting on the Crabstone College farm of the North of Scotland Agricultural College to a neighbouring proprietor, who is a well known pheasant rearer; and, seeing that such action would involve a misdirection of the purpose of an experimental farm, seeing that the experiments to be conducted on it would be likely to be rendered useless by being destroyed by game, and that such a proposal, if carried into effect, would entail a waste of public money, whether he will take steps to prevent such letting of the sporting rights?

I am aware that an offer has been made for this shooting, but it has not as yet been accepted. The Board of Agriculture for Scotland are in communication- with the Governors of the College on the subject, and the considerations referred to by my hon. Friend are being kept in view.

Kirkconnel Disturbances

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the police in certain disturbance's at Kirkconnel arising out of the mining dispute; and whether he is taking any steps regarding the matter?

My attention has been called to the matter. The miners who were convicted have appealed and have received interim liberation pending the hearing of the appeal. The matter is therefore under judicial consideration.

Is the matter relating to the action of the police under judicial consideration?

High Courts of Justice

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what amount called to be deducted from the profits of the scrivenery department at the High Courts of Justice for housing, firing, lighting, stationery, etc., for the years 1910 and 1911; and what was the total amount for these items for the whole of the departments?

As I stated on the 26th ultimo, it is not possible, from the information available, to say how much was spent in respect of the items mentioned by the hon. Member on the scrivenery department as distinct from the other departments of the High Courts of Justice. With regard to the second part, of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on the 1st instant.

Birkenhead Prosecution (Stanley Ogleby)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received a petition regarding the case of Stanley Ogleby, who was sentenced at the Birkenhead police court on the 3rd instant to six weeks' imprisonment in the second division for assault; and whether, in view of all the circumstances of the case, he can see his way to grant a remission of the sentence?

I have received the petition referred to, but after making inquiry as to the facts of the case, I am sorry I cannot advise any reduction of the sentence which does not appear to have been severe.

Woolwich Prosecution (George Smith)

asked whether he is aware that a boy named George Smith, aged seventeen, was on 2nd April sentenced to one month's imprisonment with hard labour by Mr. Hutton, the Woolwich stipendiary, for the technical offence of lodging in the open air, the same boy being a first offender; and whether he proposes to take any action, legislative or departmental, to prevent the-imprisonment of homeless boys for sleeping where they must?

I have made inquiry and find that this was the case of a lad who had already been before the magistrates at least three times before. On the first two occasions he was discharged without punishment, and on the third he was placed on probation. Every effort was made to assist him and to induce him to abandon his vagrant mode of life, but he repeatedly ran away from the home that was found for him and refused to take advantage of the assistance offered him. All gentle means having failed, the magistrate considered that a term of imprisonment with regular discipline and labour was better than turning him loose to beg and steal in the streets and might possibly induce him to accept the numerous offers of assistance which he had hitherto persistently rejected.

Does the Home Office consider imprisonment is better, and may I ask whether his Department would not consider taking some steps to prevent, either by circular or otherwise to the magistracy, the conversion of those poor street boys into gaol birds?

I think the circumstances which I have related to my hon. Friend show that every effort was made in this particular instance to prevent unfortunate result.

Shops Act (Memorandum)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether the Controller of His Majesty's Stationery Office was applied to by "The Grocer" newspaper for permission to print in its columns the Memorandum on the law relating to shops issued by the Home Office through the Stationery Office; whether a reply was sent to "The Grocer" newspaper intimating that the Home Office declined to give the necessary permission to reproduce the Memorandum; and, if so, would he state the reasons for refusing?

The facts are as stated in the question. It was very important that this Memorandum, which was specially prepared for the information of shop .assistants and shopkeepers and placed on sale at the cost of one halfpenny, should circulate as widely as possible, and should, for that purpose, be readily obtainable in every part of the country. Had permission been given to this and other papers to reproduce the Memorandum in full, booksellers would, I am advised, have been unwilling to stock it with the ultimate result of restricting its circulation. It was open, of course, to the newspaper in question to review and quote the Memorandum in the ordinary way, and a copy was sent to them for that purpose.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is in the interest of public policy that a newspaper should be prohibited from reprinting at its own expense for the benefit of those who are specially affected by an Act of Parliament the Government's own explanatory Memorandum of that Act of Parliament?

I certainly think so if the result of the newspaper's printing it at full length would be that booksellers would refuse to stock the circular. No doubt, when the circular has been stocked it might be an advantage if the newspaper published it in full.

Is the important thing that people interested should pay a halfpenny for the circular rather than got it in the newspaper?

Oh, no; it is not that. After a newspaper has once published it the fact that it has been so published is lost sight of; whereas if the booksellers permanently stock the circular the public are able to get it at any time.

Does the right hon. Gentleman intend the House to understand that its publication in this paper will not give wider circulation to the information than if the circular is stocked in any number of booksellers' shops?

If the hon. Gentleman is at all familiar with the book trade he will know that the essential thing is that the booksellers should stock the circular, which they will not do if it is first published in full in a newspaper.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that important Government Bills, such as the Government of Ireland Bill, have been printed textually in newspapers? Is it proposed to alter that?

Government of Ireland Bill

Second Reading

asked the Prime Minister if he could now name the day on which he would put down the Government of Ireland Bill for Second Reading?

Perhaps the hon. Member would kindly wait until the conclusion of questions, when I will make a statement on business.

Loans

asked if the loans which might be raised by the Irish Parliament under the powers conferred by the Government of Ireland Bill would rank after that portion of the National Debt of the United Kingdom for which Ireland might ultimately be found to be responsible?

This point will mot arise until the events take place which are provided for by Clause 26, and will then fall to be determined as provided by that Clause.

Is it not very important that the matter should be settled before any questions arise in regard to any loan?

I think the provisions are quite adequate for dealing with the matter.

Will it not affect the credit of borrowers in Ireland unless they know whether new loans rank before or after existing loans?

Payment or Members

asked if the £500,000 to be found by the British taxpayers for the use of the Irish Parliament was to be primarily devoted to the payment of the expenses of that Parliament, including the payment of the Members of the House of Commons and Senate and of the officials?

Stamps Revenue

asked whether the sum of £347,000 stated in the Memorandum on the Financial Provisions of the Government of Ireland Bill to be derived from stamps was inclusive or exclusive of the sum of £81,000 from fee stamps?

The sum of £81,000 for fee stamps is not included in the sum of £347,000.

Customs and Excise

asked whether it was intended by Clause 15 of the Government of Ireland Bill that the Irish Parliament should have power to increase Customs Duties on goods produced in Great Britain?

The answer is in the negative. This is made clear by the terms of Clause 16 (1).

asked whether, under the provisions of the Government of Ireland Bill, if the Irish Parliament were to refuse to accept a protective tariff, the estimated yield of the protective duties in Ireland would be deducted from the transferred sum?

It is not clear what is meant by the expression "refuse to accept a protective tariff" in the hon. Member's question. If the Imperial Parliament imposes protective Customs Duties in Ireland the proceeds of such duties would, under the provisions of the Bill, go to the Imperial Exchequer. If the Irish Parliament determine to reduce those duties, a corresponding reduction would be made in the transferred sum.

Questions

Norwich Labour Exchange

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a clerk, named Dickinson, lately employed in the Norwich Labour Exchange, who was removed for reasons only known to those in authority, has incurred expenses of £12 for the removal of his family and furniture back to Derby, and that this amount has been refused him by the Department; and, having regard to the fact that this man is now unemployed, having left a good situation before taking the appointment under the Labour Exchange, he will investigate the case with a view of the man having the cost of removal defrayed to him?

Mr. Dickinson was engaged at Derby, and was transferred to Nottingham and thence to Norwich, his removal expenses being paid by the Department in each case. At Norwich his appointment terminated. One of the conditions of the appointment was that Mr. Dickinson was liable to be moved from one town to another, and that the appointment could be terminated by a month's notice on either side. I regret that there is no power to defray the removal expenses from Norwich back to Derby.

Railways Bill

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, before introducing the Railways Bill, he ascertained the views of chambers of commerce or of employers' or workmen's organisations on the proposal to charge any increase in the cost of railway labour to British traders and the public at large?

As regards the first part of the question I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave yesterday to the hon. Member for the Eddisbury Division of Cheshire. I would remind my hon. Friend that the Clause relating to, possible increases of charges necessitated by the cost of improved conditions of labour has been inserted in pursuance of an undertaking given by the Government in August last in connection with the settlement of the railway dispute. I cannot admit the accuracy of the description of the effect of the Clause by my hon. Friend.

asked the President of the Board of Trade, with reference to the Railways Bill, if he will state what was the increase of the net profits of British railway companies in 1905 and 1910, respectively, and what would be the cost per annum of increasing all British railway servants' wages by 2s. 6d. a week? May I say that the intention of the question I have put on the Paper was to ask for the increase in profits between 1905 and 1910.

I understood that, that the hon. Member wanted a comparison between 1905 and 1910. The increase in the net receipts of the railway companies in 1910 as compared with 1905 was nearly £4,000,000. The cost of an increase of 2s. 6d. a week in the wages of all railway servants would be roughly the same. I may perhaps mention that the paid-up capital increased by more than £45,000,000 during the period selected.

Does not that answer show the Railways Bill to be entirely unnecessary?

Government Contracts and Trade Unions

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, whereas the Post Office authorities supply to unions interested in particular contracts the names of those firms who have sent in tenders and the Admiralty authorities provide facilities for the examination of the list of tenderers, the War Office and the Office of Works refuse to give such information; and whether, in view of the fact that the practice referred to is to some extent a safeguard against infringement of the Fair-Wages Clause, he will take steps for the advisory committee to consider the matter and secure that uniformity in the administration of the Clause for which it was brought into being?

The Board of Trade have no official knowledge of the practice of the contracting Departments in furnishing the trade unions with information relating to the issue of invitations to tender, and any inquiries on the subject should be addressed to those Departments. I am informed, however, that the question of the supply of information as to the placing of Government contracts was considered by the Fair-Wages Advisory Committee very shortly after their appointment. The Committee recommended to all Departments that names and addresses of firms holding Government contracts should be published monthly in the Board of Trade "Labour Gazette," save in the case of small contracts, similar particulars with regard to which should be furnished to bond fide inquirers. I understand that these recommendations have been generally adopted by the contracting Departments. I am sending a copy of my hon. Friend's question and of this reply to the Departments which he has mentioned.

Coal Mines (Minimum Wage) Act

Cannock Chase Distkict Committee

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Board of Trade has appointed Sir Clarendon Hyde to be independent chairman of the Cannock Chase District Committee under the Minimum Wage Act; and, if so, whether he is aware that Sir Clarendon Hyde was Liberal Member for Wednesbury in the 1906 Parliament, and was a Liberal candidate in both the general elections of 1910, and that Wednesbury is situated close to the Cannock Chase coalfield; and whether he will take into consideration the undesirability of appointing to such a position a man who recently was, and may again become, a strong party politician in the locality?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the appointment has given great satisfaction to both sides of the Board? I know, because I am the vice-chairman of the Board.

I have no information with regard to the latter point, but I am quite sure it has given satisfaction, for I have had no representations in reference to it. I am sure that everyone who knows the exceedingly useful public work which Sir Clarendon Hyde has done as an arbitrator in industrial disputes, and also as an appointed member of Trade Boards under the Trade Boards Act, and in other similar matters, will agree that he is eminently suitable to act as a chairman under the Coal Mines Act, and I have every confidence in his complete impartiality. I hardly think it necessary to add that no political consideration whatever entered into this or any other appointment which I have made under the Act.

May I ask first of all if this appointment has given so much satisfaction why is it that the masters and men disagreed as to the appointment before it was made; and in the next place, does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate this fact, that no attack is made upon Sir Clarendon Hyde's impartiality or competence; but is it not likely that when a man who has been a strong local politician in the neighbourhood is appointed to such a post his decisions cannot command universal consent?

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask whether it is not a fact that the name of Sir Clarendon Hyde was never before the Joint Board until he was appointed by the Board of Trade, and that other names were before the Committee?

I was just going to point that out. The hon. Gentleman opposite asked me whether I thought it was satisfactory that a gentleman, as to whose name the two sides disagreed should be appointed. The facts are the other way. Where the two parties agree as to the name that gentleman is appointed. Where they disagree as to the name the Board of Trade appoint someone else. Sir Clarendon Hyde's name was not before them, and so, obviously, his name could not be disagreed upon. If it were we should not have appointed him. Taking all the circumstances into account, -and knowing the duties, we thought he would perform them impartially and satisfactorily, and we thought it was a good appointment, and I still adhere to that opinion.

May I ask whether it is the intention of the Board of Trade in other places where there is a disagreement to appoint local politicians?

I have names of the chairmen whom the Board of Trade have selected where the two parties could not agree. They have been published, I think, but if not they will be published, as I have already promised, with the Votes in the course of a day or two, and if the hon. Member looks at the list he will see that that was not our policy or intention, and that is not the result. There is really no objection on that behalf.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether prominent Tories have been appointed to these positions elsewhere?

Questions

Thames Weirs (Oxford to Teddington)

asked the President of the Board of Trade the discharging capacity of each weir between Oxford and Teddington, inclusive, when the height of the flood is one foot above head water at the weir, the term weir to include any supplementary channel or channels which may relieve the flood pressure at the weir?

The desired information is not available at the Board of Trade, but I have communicated a copy of the question to the Thames Conservancy, and will furnish my hon. Friend with a copy of their reply in due course.

Pilotage Bill (Bristol)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he would postpone the inquiry into the by-laws proposed by the Bristol Corporation for establishing a system of choice pilotage until the Pilotage Bill is introduced?

I cannot say at present when the Pilotage Bill will be introduced, and I do not therefore feel justified in giving this undertaking.

Coal Strike (Port of London Authority)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he had received from the officers and servants of the Port of London Authority any representations or protests against being temporarily suspended from employment during the late coal strike without receiving any remuneration or compensation; whether he was aware that many of these officers and servants have been unemployed over six weeks, and were suspended from work also during August of last year for ten days without remuneration or compensation; and, if so, what action he had taken in the matter?

I have received no representations or protests regarding this matter from the employés of the Port of London Authority. The matter is not one in which the Board of Trade have any jurisdiction.

Post Office (Glenrinnes, Banffshire)

asked the- Postmaster-General (1) if any decision has been arrived at with reference to the establishment of a post office in the Glenrinnes district, in Banffshire; (2) whether he has received a petition from the burgh of Aber-chirder, Banffshire; whether the increased postal and telephonic arrangements which are desired will be carried out; and (3) whether representations have reached him from residents in the parish of Gamrie, Banffshire, with reference to postal facilities at Gardenstown and the surrounding district; and if the alteration in the present system desired by the residents will be made?

I have called for a report in each of these cases, and I will communicate the result to the hon. Member as soon as the inquiries are completed.

Loss of Steamship "Titanic."

American Inquiry

asked what are the grounds on which an inquiry is being held into the loss of the "Titanic" in America; what is the status of the Court holding the inquiry; and what is the precedent for a foreign inquiry into the loss of a British ship?

I am not aware of the precise grounds on which the inquiry is being held. I understand the object to be to determine the responsibility for the wreck. Sections 101, 102, 103, and 104 of the revised Statutes of the United States empower a Committee of either the Senate or the House of Representatives to summon witnesses and administer oaths, and any person refusing to answer is guilty of misdemeanour. It would seem, however, that the witnesses are appearing voluntarily, and have not been subpoenaed. So far as I am aware, there has been hitherto no case of a foreign inquiry into the wreck of a British vessel on the high seas.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform me what will happen if witnesses required for the British Inquiry are detained in America, and also whether instructions have been sent to the British Ambassador at Washington in regard to this matter?

With regard to the first part of the question, I feel sure that we may trust to the usual good sense of the American Senate and American people not to desire to detain persons whose attendance may be required by the Statutory Court of Inquiry in this country. In regard to the second part of the question, no definite instructions have yet, to my knowledge, been sent to our representative in the United States.

Did the "Titanic" sail under the American flag? [HON. MEMBERS: "No" and "Yes."]

May I press the hon. Gentleman to say whether instructions should not be sent to the Embassy at Washington to give such protection as may be within its power to British subjects who are being summoned before this Committee, and who, apparently, have no one to defend their rights at the present time?

I think there is no doubt that if any circumstances arose in which protection was desired, instructions would be sent, but as I have already said, we hope that case may not arise.

Will the hon. Gentleman communicate with the American Embassy in London on the subject, so as to be in direct communication.

Has the hon. Gentleman considered the constitution of the American Committee, and whether it is a political committee conducted by persons who are not experts on the subject?

I do not think it falls upon us to give consideration to those matters. It does appear that the Committee of the Senate, under their Statutes, has power to summon witnesses and administer oaths. We have not thought it our duty to go into the matter further than that.

May I ask my hon. Friend whether steps have been taken to get a verbatim report of the proceedings in America for the use of the British Inquiry?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that those persons who have been cited before the American Committee complain that they are not receiving fair and honourable treatment, and will he take steps to secure fair and honourable treatment for British subjects?

No complaint has been made, and clearly in this matter we must, as I think we are right in doing, trust to the good sense of the American people, and therefore we do not desire to inter fere without absolute necessity.

Wireless Telegraphy

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of recent events, he would consider the advisability of making such regulations as would ensure that on all vessels equipped with the Marconi system of telegraphy a sufficient number of operators were on board to secure constant attendance at the instrument by night and day?

The question raised by the hon. Member is one which can be considered by the Court of Inquiry which has been ordered into the circumstances attending the loss of the ss. "Titanic" and consequent loss of life. As I stated in this House on Monday, the question of the operation of wireless telegraphy is among the questions on which I am obtaining the advice of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why he was unable to answer the same question when I put it to him two days ago?

I thought I answered what I understood to be the question of the hon. Member at that time. There may have been some point that I did not appreciate, but I had no intention of not answering it, as I had the same information then. I apologise to the hon. Member if I did not answer it fully.

Would it not be more to the purpose to compel passenger vessels to carry wireless installations?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the conflicting character, uncertainty, and defectiveness of much of the information about the loss of the "Titanic" received from wireless telegraphy messages; whether the Board of Trade possesses the power to lay down rules that vessels carrying wireless installations shall give to messages involving the safety of vessels and public interests priority over purely private intelligence; and whether, in view of recent occurrences, he will take action to ensure that wireless installations shall be used primarily in the general interests of ocean navigation?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I called for full reports last week by cable with regard to the wireless messages to which the hon. Member refers from all the wireless stations and ships in any way connected, and those reports will, it is hoped, be received by the end of this week. Article 9 of the radiotelegraphic Convention signed at Berlin in November, 1906, provides that radiotelegraphic stations, whether on land or sea, are bound to accept with absolute priority calls of distress from ships, to answer such calls in a similar manner, and to take the necessary steps with regard to them. Article 16 of the Service Regulations annexed to the Convention provides that as soon as a station receives a signal of distress it must suspend all correspondence and not resume it until it has made sure that the communications consequent on the call for assistance have been completed. The Postmaster-General's licences for the use of wireless telegraphy on British ships embody these regulations.

Will the right hon. Gentleman publish his reply with the Votes, as it is of very general interest?

That cannot be done. The hon. Gentleman cannot eat his cake and have it. The only replies that are published with the Votes are answers which have not been given in the House.

Safety Regulations

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he would introduce a Bill making it a criminal offence to violate any Regulation made for the purpose of safeguarding life on ships at sea?

Under the Merchant Shipping Acts offences against die provisions of the law and regulations for securing safety of life at sea subject the offenders to the prosecutions and penalties prescribed by these Acts. Some offences, for example, an infringement of the Collision Regulations caused by the wilful default of the master or owner of a ship (see Section 419 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894), and the sending or taking of a British ship to sea in such an unseaworthy state that the life of any person is likely to be thereby endangered (see Section 457 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894), are punishable as misdemeanours. The suggestion made in the question will be noted among others in considering the amendment of the law and regulations for the purpose of securing safety of life at sea.

Boat Accommodation

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether, in view of the established facts in connection with the loss of the "Titanic," he would immediately issue regulations making it incumbent for all passenger ships to carry boats sufficient to accommodate the whole of the passengers and crew; and (2) whether there was any reason to await the Report of a court of inquiry on the numerous questions connected with the loss of the "Titanic" before issuing regulations to increase adequately the boat accommodation on passenger ships?

In asking these questions, may I explain that they were put down before the splendid statement of my right hon. Friend yesterday upon one aspect of the matter?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, pending the findings of the Court about to be constituted to inquire into the wreck of the "Titanic," he proposed to frame any fresh Regulations as to the number of lifeboats to be carried by passenger vessels?

There will not be a moment's avoidable delay in preparing and issuing revised Regulations with regard to boats and life-saving appliances. But, as I have already indicated to the House, I am determined that in this most important and complicated matter I will act in the light of the fullest information and the best expert advice that can be obtained. The question of diminishing the risk and of mitigating the effects of accidents to passenger vessels at sea involves not one, but many elements, and needs to be reconsidered as a whole in the light of the new facts established by the recent disaster. Otherwise it might easily result that, by attending exclusively to one form of safeguard, we actually create new risks. My own expert advisers are already at work on the whole subject, and I expect very shortly to receive the advice of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee on the questions which I have referred to them. I do not think it will be necessary to await the final Report of this Committee on all these questions, or the verdict of the Court of Inquiry, before issuing any revised Regulations; but, on the other hand, there are important points on which I could not prudently take action until the inquiry has at least made some progress. Meanwhile, I would remind the House of the statement which I made yesterday with regard to the voluntary action contemplated by the great passenger lines themselves with regard to boat accommodation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Indian transports carry boat accommodation for 400 more men than was carried on the "Titanic," although they are only one-fourth the size?

Yes, that is information of value, but I do not know what answer the hon. Gentleman wishes me to make.

Does it not show that the Government themselves think that the Board of Trade Regulations are totally inadequate?

In view of the fact that only two-thirds of the lifeboat accommodation on the "Titanic" was used, can it be regarded as establishing the fact that a greater number of lifeboats would save more people?

That is a matter on which we desire further information. We have had the support of the House up till now, and I would like to maintain that support. We do not want to act in a hurry; we want to have the information before us. I can assure the House that there will be no delay. If we find on the information before us it is desirable to issue interim Regulations we shall not hesitate to do so.

Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate with the companies that own the cross-Channel steamers?

I think communications have been made. As I said yesterday, I am making inquiries, but I would point out that there is a difference between these and the other boats referred to. The Channel boats are within sight and hail, and practically within reach of a large number of other boats. Therefore, I do think that that quite possibly alters the position of these boats in regard to their lifeboat accommodation. I am not laying that down as a proposition; I only suggest it might mitigate the position of these particular boats in regard to the boat accommodation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give attention to the question of overcrowding on the Channel steamers: sometimes it is absolutely scandalous?

That is a different point from the boat accommodation, but it is a matter to which we have given attention more than once.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question which I hope will not embarrass him in any way? Is he aware that at this time of the year the various steamers on the Thames are about to apply for their passenger certificates, and will he withold them unless they give an undertaking to increase their lifeboat accommodation pending the result of the inquiry?

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to procure from the other side a verbatim report of the inquiry that is now proceeding for use in the British inquiry?

The hon. Member should give notice of that; it does not arise on the question.

Is there anything in the shipping regulations that makes it imperative that look-out glasses should be supplied to the men on the watch?

Life-Saving Regulations

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the date of the last revision of the Regulations made by the Board in regard to life-saving appliances on passenger vessels; and what committee of the Board, if any, was consulted in regard to such revision?

The present Life-Saving Appliances Rules are substantially those made in March, 1894, but they were re-enacted in February, 1902, and rules were added in May, 1909, April, 1910, and June, 1911. The Life-Saving Appliances Committee advised upon the rules of March, 1894, and the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee were consulted with regard to the three recent rules.

Ships' Stewards

asked whether the Commission in Court about to be set up will have full power to inquire into the accommodation provided for such persons as stewards, the hours actually worked by them, and the allowance of time allowed for meals?

The Court will have full power to inquire into any matter which it considers relevant to the loss of the "Titanic," or the loss of life. In the event of the Court considering that any of the matters referred to in the question come within this description it would have full power to inquire into them.

Boat Drill

asked whether all vessels carrying passengers are required to see that boat drill is systematically carried out; that the boats are shown to be properly equipped and proved by actual test to be seaworthy; and that all such proceedings be duly recorded in the log?

The requirements of the law with regard to the points raised by my hon. Friend are contained in Section 430 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and Section 9 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1906. Under these provisions boats have to be kept so as to be at all times fit and ready for use, and a record must be kept in the official log-book of every occasion on which boat drill is practised and the life-saving appliances examined. This is the only specific requirement in the Act as regards boat drill. I have already circulated with the Votes copy of a Notice issued by the Board of Trade to owners and masters on the subject.

Board or Trade Advisory Committee

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state for what period the gentlemen forming the Advisory Committee to the Board of Trade are appointed; and if, when the opportunity occurs of making fresh appointments, he will see that a majority of persons representing the general public interest are appointed?

The present Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee was appointed on 25th November, 1911, and, like its predecessors, holds office for a term of two years. Section 79 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1906, lays down that the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee is to consist "of such persons as they" (the Board of Trade) "may appoint, representing the interests principally affected, or having special knowledge of the subject matter." My hon. Friend will therefore see that this Committee was intended by Parliament to be in the main a committee of experts.

May I ask whether this Advisory Committee, beyond blocking certain important lighthouses in the North of Scotland, have ever fulfilled any useful functions whatever?

I do not know how far it is responsible for the action to which the hon. Gentleman objects, of which I have no knowledge apart from that either useful or wicked action on their part, they have really performed very valuable offices indeed to the mercantile service, the Board of Trade, and the community generally.

British Steamers in South Atlantic

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give the number of British steamers on the high seas on 16th March last homeward bound from South America and the Cape of Good Hope, in the South Atlantic only, south of an imaginary line drawn from Demerara to Tangier, and state the total value of those steamers; the approximate value of the foodstuffs carried therein; and how many British steamers were in port in the South Atlantic on that date?

I regret that I am unable at the moment to give the information asked for, but I am making inquiries, and I will communicate the result to the Noble Lord as soon as possible.

Bills Presented

Special Land Tenures Bill

"To amend the Law of customary freeholds and freeholds subject to peculiar customs." Presented by Mr. Hills; supported by Mr. Beale and Mr. Buckmaster; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 14th May, and to be printed. [Bill 168.]

Settled Lands Bill

"To amend the Settled Land Acts, 1882 to 1890. Presented by Mr. Hills; supported by Mr. Beale and Mr. Buckmaster; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 14th May, and to be printed. [Bill 169.]

Trustee Bill

"To amend the Trustee Act, 1893." Presented by Mr. Hills; supported by Mr. Beale, Mr. Buckmaster, and Mr. Cave; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 14th May, and to be printed. [Bill 170.]

Tithe Bill

"To amend the Law relating to the conversion of contingent tithes or tithe rent-charge into a continuing rent-charge." Presented by Mr. Hills; supported by Mr. Beale, Mr. Buckmaster, and Mr. Cave; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 14th May, and to be printed. [Bill 171.]

Pawning Industrial Tools Bill

"To amend the Law relating to the pawning of tools, instruments, or appliances used in connection with any trade or handicraft." Presented by Mr. Tyson Wilson; supported by Mr. Bowerman, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Gill, Mr. Albert Smith, and Mr. Stephen Walsh; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 172.]

Business of the House

May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has any statement to make regarding the course of business?

The custom, of course, has been to make an announcement regarding business on Thursdays, but I feel that it will be for the convenience of the House if I make a statement today as to the future course of business.

On Monday next we shall take the Ways and Means Committee, when, in accordance with the understanding that I have with the House, a further opportunity will be given upon the Resolution for the Sinking Fund for a general discussion on the Budget.

As we are desirous of obtaining the Second Reading of the Home Rule Bill before the House disperses for the Whitsuntide holidays, and also as we wish to give adequate time between the First and Second Reading of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill, we propose to ask the House to proceed with the Second Reading of the Home Rule Bill on Tuesday next, 30th April, and, in view of the three days recently given to the First Reading, we feel that if we assign six Parliamentary days to its Second Reading, the House will regard this as ample provision. With that object in view, we propose to devote to the Second Reading the whole of Government time from Tuesday, 30th April, until Thursday, 9th May, when we shall ask the House to bring that stage of the Bill to a conclusion.

I would like to give at this stage some indication as to the course of business subsequent to the Second Reading of the Home Rule Bill, but in doing so at this early date, I would ask the House to regard the statement as provisional.

In the week beginning Monday, 13th May, we desire to proceed with the Second Beading of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill.

We will make a detailed announcement later on as to the business we propose to take before the Adjournment Motion for the Whitsuntide recess.

It is our present intention to adjourn on Wednesday, 22nd May, and in the course of a few days we hope to be in a position to announce the duration of the holiday.

As the right hon. Gentleman thinks it desirable to have an adequate interval before the taking of the First and Second Reading of the Welsh Disestablishment Bill, does he not think it is desirable to have an adequate interval also with regard to the Home Rule Bill as well? Is he aware that on the last occasion when Home Rule was before this House there was an interval of five weeks between its introduction and the Second Reading; that on that occasion there were twelve days, full days, given to the discussion of the Second Reading; and in view of the fact that the Chief Secretary for Ireland has more than once stated that the Bill is not going to be rushed through the House, and the further fact that the Government are under the impression, or at all events, they entertain the hope, that this Bill is going to be carried into law without the consent of the country, does he not think that at least as much time should be given for its discussion in this House as was given on the last occasion?

I do not think I can very well in answer to a question enter into the rather contentious matters suggested at the end of the supplementary question, as to whether the country does or does not approve of the Bill. I therefore confine myself to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's question with regard to the time, and the interval which elapses between the First and the Second Reading. There is an interval of very nearly a fortnight between the decision on the First Reading of the Home Rule Bill and the beginning of the Debate on the Second Reading, and there will be an interval of over four weeks between the decision on the First Reading and the decision on the Second Reading. When my right hon. Friend said there would be ample opportunity for the consideration of the details of the Bill, that of course referred to the further consideration of the Bill.

I will accept the statement about not rushing the Bill. I do not think there is any indication that the Bill is going to be rushed at all. I think the right hon. Gentleman and others may rest assured that there will be ample opportunity of considering the Bill.

Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that the Bill was only printed on Wednesday and was only circulated to Members on Friday; that it is an extremely complicated Bill; that it is impossible for hon. Members in the House or people in the country to understand it without a good deal of study, and that if we are to have the Second Reading so soon it will prevent it being adequately considered?

I do not see how it is possible to prevent the Bill being considered by the country. After all, the Bill must occupy some weeks of Parliamentary time.

The right hon. Gentleman now means to be offensive, I am afraid. I am trying to answer quite courteously the right hon. Gentleman's question.

I am answering the question put to me by the Leader of the Opposition, who suggested that we are attempting to rush through a Bill without giving adequate time for its examination. We occupied about a week discussing whether the Bill should be introduced. [An HON. MEMBER: "Three days."] Yes, it was three days of Parliamentary time, and that is practically the whole of the Government time for a week. We now propose occupying what is very nearly equivalent to a fortnight of the time which the Government has at its disposal for the consideration of the Second Reading.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not interrupt. He will have an opportunity of putting his questions.

With great respect, Sir, when it is stated that we are being given fourteen days, am I not at liberty to say that we are only getting five and a half days?

The right hon. Gentleman was told that he would get six days. He then said it was only five and a half days. He will have an opportunity of showing, by question and answer, if it is only five and a half days while the Government say it is six.

With great respect to you, Mr. Speaker, what the right hon. Gentleman said was that the Government were giving us fourteen days. [An HON. MEMBER: "Two weeks."] What I interjected was that it was only five and a half days, and I respectfully submit that I was absolutely right.

I cannot undertake to say whether the right hon. Gentleman was right or wrong. What I was objecting to was the method of his interruptions. If he desires to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer any question, I shall be happy to call upon him.

What I did say was that practically the whole of the time at the disposal of the Government for a fortnight was to be given to the Second Reading, and 1 adhere to that statement. That is for the decision purely of the principle of the Bill. Then comes the examination in Committee and on Report stage of the details of the Bill. No Government, whatever its desire, could possibly escape from examining quite thoroughly, and allowing the country to examine quite thoroughly, the whole of the proposals of this Bill.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the financial part of the Home Rule Bill is most complicated, and is it conceivable in such a very short time that it is possible for any hon. Members of this House or for the country to fully realise the gravity of the situation which will be created by bringing in this Bill before proper consideration has been given to its financial Clauses, and is it not the deliberate intention of the Government, by curtailing this short interval between the First and Second Beading, to hoodwink the country once more, and prevent the people understanding the great wrong that is going to be done?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how many days will be given to the Second Reading of the Welsh Church Bill, and also whether he will give a day's discussion to the question whether that Bill is to go upstairs or remain in this House?

May I have an answer to the first part of my question as to how many days will be given to the Second Reading of the Bill?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman when the Government propose to introduce and circulate the Trade Union Law (Amendment) Bill, and whether he proposes to give it a Second Reading before the Whitsuntide Recess?

I shall be obliged to my hon. Friend if he will put a question on that point next week. I am not in a position to answer his question now.

In view of the representations made to the right hon. Gentleman will he consider the desirability of postponing the Second Reading of the Home Rule Bill until Tuesday week, especially having regard to the fact that the National Convention only acquiesced in it yesterday.

Do I understand from what the right hon. Gentleman said with regard to the Committee and Report stages of the Home Rule Bill that there will be no attempt to apply the Closure by way of the Guillotine to the Home Rule Bill.

That is looking a little far ahead, and I cannot answer that question now. With regard to the question put by the hon. Member for Mid-Armagh, I do not think it would be for the convenience of the House that the Second Reading should be postponed.

The way I make it out, the right hon. Gentleman is only giving five days for the Second Reading. May I ask whether he will consider the advisability of taking private Members' time on Tuesday and Wednesday evenings, and on Friday, in order that we may have a full, discussion of seven or eight days on the Second Reading of the Government of Ireland Bill.

I am assured by my hon. Friend that it means five whole days and two Wednesdays, which is really more than six days.

Notices of Motion

Docks and Coaling Facilities in Caribbean Sea

I beg to give notice that on this day four weeks I will call attention to the present unsatisfactory state of docking and coaling facilities and telegraphic communications, and to the inadequate defences of the naval bases in the Caribbean Sea, and to move a Resolution.

National Food Supply

I beg to give notice that on this day four weeks I will call attention to the intimate relations existing between the present large expenditure upon naval construction and the insufficient supply of home-grown wheat, and move a Resolution.

Fair-Wages Clause (Government Contracts)

I beg to give notice that on this day four weeks I will call attention to the administration of the Fair-Wages Clause in Government contracts, and move a Resolution.

Rating and Land Values Bill

4.0 P.M.

I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to enable local authorities to relieve ratepayers from paying rates in respect of buildings and fixed plants and improvements, and to adopt land value as the standard of rating."

This is a very short Bill. In the first Clause it asks that local authorities may by resolution determine that the whole or part of existing or future rates may be levied and charged in respect of a rateable value as hereinafter defined in lieu of any other rateable value. The rates to be levied in respect of Any hereditaments under the provisions of this Bill shall be payable by each person interested in the new rateable value of such hereditaments in proportion to the amount of his interest therein, and the Board of Inland Revenue shall supply free of charge to every local authority full copies of all valuations made under the provisions of the Finance (1909–10) Act and any Amending Act or Acts relating to land or premises within the area of such local authority. The basis of the rate shall be the full site value as defined in the Finance Act of 1909–10. This is the sixth time a Bill has been introduced into this House asking that power should be given to local authorities to raise rates upon land values. During the Conservative Administration, 1900–5, five Bills were introduced and debated. One Bill during that Administration was carried on Second Reading. In 1906 the Government was itself urged by a petition signed by nearly 600 rating authorities to give power to rate upon land values. The Budget of 1909–10 seemed to whet the appetite of local authorities on this question, and the agitation which has been going on since 1909 has increased in its vigour until to-day one can hardly open the Notice Paper without seeing from some part of Great Britain petitions asking the Government to give powers to local authorities to rate upon land values. I might remind the House that the Glasgow Corporation is now again instituting an agitation in this country that was once very successful in bringing to the notice of the Government the wish of the local authorities to rate upon land values. This little Bill is one that has been discussed very freely in connection with the Glasgow petition in councils up and down the country. It is the wish of those who support it that the Government should get on with the valuation as speedily as possible, and that they should keep in view the necessity in future of bringing the valuation up to date, so that when the local authorities have power to rate upon land values they will always have the value a year before the rate is imposed.

I rise to object to this Bill. The hon. Member opposite appears to think he can base a system of rating on the present system of valuation carried out under the Budget. If he will look at the Scottish Land Values Bill, he will see the definition of land values in that Bill is totally different from that being carried out under the proposals of the 1909–10 Budget. It includes in its value a great deal which is not land value at all, and therefore it does not represent the basis which I think the hon. Gentleman's predecessors in this movement sought to obtain. The definition of land values in the Scottish Land Values Bill was agreed upon in this House after a long Debate, in which the then Lord Advocate (Mr. Shaw) and the present Lord Advocate (Mr. Ure), Gentlemen who thoroughly understand the question and who were almost the apostles of the movement, took part. When I say this Bill proceeds upon a basis of land values which really does not exist and which is purely imaginary, I certainly think it ought not to be passed into law.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Neilson, Sir Henry Dalziel, Sir Alfred Mond, Mr. Chancellor, Mr. Morrell, Mr. Charles Price, Mr. Raffan, Mr. James Parker, Mr. Stephen Walsh, Mr. Wedgwood, and Mr. George Barnes. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 173.]

Supply

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1912–13

Order read for resuming adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [ 18th April ], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

Which Amendment was to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, in order to add instead thereof the words "this House is of opinion that the methods adopted and the steps taken to bring into operation Part I. of the National Insurance Act, 1911, are unsatisfactory, and that owing to the delay in establishing the Advisory Committee and framing regulations, and in establishing the Insurance Committees and District Committees, and in making arrangements for providing medical benefits, and in settling schemes for disposal of the present funds of friendly societies under Section 72 of the Act, and in ascertaining and making known the alternative benefits under Section 13 of the Act, the date of commencement of Part I. of the Act ought to be deferred so as to enable societies to organise their future business on a proper footing, and so as to give insured persons a reasonable time within which to make their arrangements."—[ Mr. Rupert Gwynne. ]

Question again proposed, "That the words proposed be left out stand part of the Question." Debate resumed.

Insurance Act (Administration)

When the Debate adjourned the other night, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had just concluded a violent attack upon my Noble Friend the Member for Perthshire (Marquess of Tulli-bardine), but a perusal of the statements his speech contains leaves absolutely untouched and unshaken the broad grounds on which my Noble Friend based his case. Let me remind the House, very briefly, what were the three general complaints my Noble Friend brought forward. In the first place, he complained that the great majority on the authority appointed to administer the Insurance Act in Scotland belonged to the Radical party. In the second place, he complained that an undue proportion of nominations for appointments as typists were given to one school, that of Mr. Leishman, when there were many applicants who could not get nominated to sit for the examination at all. His third complaint was that Mr. Leishman's appointment was followed by the introduction of a special kind of typewriting machine into the Insurance Office of Scotland, apparently without the intervention of the Stationery Office. Those are the three main points my Noble Friend made, and I think anyone who has taken the trouble to read the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find he did not touch any one of them. It is true he corrected my Noble Friend, who said the nominations had been given by Mr. Leishman to his school. The Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out that was a mistake. The nominations were given to pupils who had been at the school and not to the school itself. To my mind it is an aggravation of the offence to give the nominations to selected individuals rather than to give them to the school and transfer them to scholars who are then under instruction.

The only object my Noble Friend had in bringing this matter before the House of Commons, and the only object I have in reference to it, is that we want the administration of this Act to be as clean, as pure, and as above suspicion as the administration of any other Act of Parliament by members of the Civil Service. We think, and I believe the House will agree with us, it is desirable that people who are appointed to hold office under the Insurance Act should sever themselves from any business in which they have been previously engaged, and that their names should not be used for pushing the advantage of any particular business in any particular direction. If, as I hope will be the case, that is the system which will obtain and which will govern the officials who administer this Act in the future, then I think my Noble Friend will feel he was fully justified in bringing the matter before the House of Commons, and he will have achieved the object he has in view. The speech made on Wednesday by the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Masterman) interested me greatly. It was a speech which told very largely in favour of the Motion I am now supporting. He admitted the inconvenience which had been caused by the delay in appointing the Advisory Committee, and he went on to point out it was not occasioned by any action or lack of action on the part of the Insurance Commissioners. It arose from the fact that some bodies who were entrusted with the duty of appointing persons to represent them on the Advisory Committee had taken a very long time to do it. These are his own words:—

That is the reason why, as far as I understand the matter, the medical profession have been reluctant to take the initial step for coming in, as I hope they will eventually come in, to work the Insurance Act. If it is not the fault of the Insurance Commissioners, it is undoubtedly, to my mind, the fault of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Financial Secretary reminded us that the guidance of the Advisory Committee is necessary in order to enable the Insurance Commissioners to properly discharge many of the duties with which they are entrusted.

The Act almost makes it necessary. I think the meaning of Clause 58, as it stood in the Act, practically makes it necessary to appoint the Advisory Committee before proper regulations can be made for the various bodies under the Act. I do not argue that point. We both agree that it is desirable. Here we are, nearly four months after the Act has passed into law, within less than three months of the time when the Act is coming into operation, and the Advisory Committee has only just been appointed, and when the hon. Member opposite spoke they had not yet met. In other words, they have to cram into two and a-half months the work which the House thought they were going to have six months to do. The difficulties which lie before the Advisory Committee, not less than those which lie before the Insurance Commissioners, are immense. The difficulty of putting the Act into force and getting it into working operation is immense also. Let the House remember that the difficulties are not difficulties which will be felt by the administrators of the Act only; they will be felt by the enormous number of persons who are brought into insurance, and, most of all, by the immense number of people who are brought into insurance for the first time. They will have to make their choice between societies, and they will have to make their choice between the various options that are given them under the Act, without any experience to guide them, and without any previous knowledge of what insurance means. I think we are all anxious that the regulations of the Insurance Commissioners should be published at the earliest possible moment, in order that people who are not now insured may have some opportunity of making themselves familiar with the whole problem in all its bearings. I want to say one or two words in regard to the constitution of the Advisory Committee. The constitution of the Advisory Committee, of course, is different from that which was laid down, although not different from that which was contemplated by the Act as it stood before it was altered. The terms of Section 58 are:—

"The Insurance Commissioners shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, appoint an Advisory Committee for the purpose of giving the Insurance Commissioners advice and assistance in connection with the making and altering of regulations under this part of the Act, consisting of representatives of associations of employers and approved societies, of duly qualified medical practitioners who have personal experience of general practice, and of such other persons as the Commissioners may appoint, of whom two at least shall be women."

It will be seen that the Clause provides for representatives of associations of employers and of approved societies, of medical men, and of certain others, appointed directly by the Commissioners, I find, however, that on the Advisory Committee there are, I think, twenty-six representatives of trade unions and only twenty representatives of what I call the old friendly societies. The representatives of the trade unions outnumber the representatives of the employers. I would like to know if the hon. Gentleman would tell me why that proportion has been adopted. It cannot, I think, have any real relation to the proportion of insured persons in the old friendly societies, on the one hand, or of the trade unions on the other, because I believe it to be a fact that there is a far greater number of people insured in the friendly societies than in the trade unions at the present moment. If that be the case, I should think that the representatives of the friendly societies would have had a larger representation on the Committee, and that the trade unions would have had less. Obviously the trade unions did not arrange the proportion of representation that they should have on the Advisory Committee. I presume they were asked to appoint so many members, and they did it. The responsibility for the proportion rests with the hon. Gentleman opposite. The House will remember that the hon. Gentleman told us there are no approved societies at all yet, and that the Insurance Commissioners could not approve any societies before they had the services of the Advisory Committee. One would have thought that that would have been foreseen. I mean that the difficulty of securing the appointment of the Advisory Committee would have been foreseen when the Bill was under discussion in this House. It was not foreseen because we were not allowed an opportunity of debating the Constitution or the formation of the Advisory Committee or any of the difficulties attending it. It is one of those things which the action of the guillotine prevented us from discussing. Therefore it came as a surprise to some Members of the House to find the whole preparation for the administration of this Act was hung up because the Advisory Committee could not be appointed until the month of April, although the Bill had been passed into law in December. I want to ask one other question in regard to the representation of the friendly societies on the Advisory Committee. I notice there is a sparse representation of the smaller societies. These are societies without experienced advisers; they are societies which are carried on to a large extent in their own neighbourhood and in their neighbourhood only. There are practically, I think, no men of great standing to represent them in London or elsewhere, and I should have thought that of all the kinds of societies needing representation these people stand in need of the fullest representation on the Advisory Committee. I think they stand in need of that representation for this reason: we know that there is a strong movement going on amongst the smallest societies in the direction of dissolution. It is a thousand pities that these small societies should bring their useful work to an end unless they are compelled to do so. Many of them have accumulated large funds, funds which might very well be carried into insurance under the Act, funds that might be utilised for giving their members additional benefits under the Act, instead of wasting them and dividing them up, as I am sorry to say they have done in many cases. It is very difficult to follow cause and effect in many cases, but I am going to give an instance of the effect of a speech which was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Opera House earlier in the year in connection with the matter of small friendly societies. One of my hon. Friends was doing his utmost, and I am glad to say many of my hon. Friends are also moving in the same direction, in the hope of preserving the small societies. One of my hon. Friends was making strong efforts to secure in his county the continued existence of the small societies. He realised that if he was to be successful he must divorce the work that he was doing from any party complexion, and in order to do that he invited and practically secured the services of some of his political opponents, and amongst them a gentleman of large influence and possessions in the county. Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a speech in regard to the matter of the small societies, and he referred to the prospect of their continued existence in such terms as to carry consternation to the mind of some of his own supporters belonging to the landed classes in the country. When the House is reminded of his words I think they will not be surprised. This is what he said:— Exchequer. We know it too well. It does not convey so much alarm to us as it does to some of his own supporters. We are not ceasing our efforts to assist the smaller friendly societies who stand so much in need of assistance. The Advisory Committee which is charged with the duty of assisting the Insurance Commissioners to make regulations having now been formed, we may expect a flood of regulations to pour forth from the Commission Office. I suppose they will come like flies in the spring, one quickly following another. We hope that although the spring is late we shall see them in abundance before very long. There is one thing I want to ask the Financial Secretary to arrange for, that is that any regulations, or any ordinance, or anything done by the Treasury to alter the Act, shall be laid on the Table and circulated amongst Members. For instance, I saw in the "Gazette"—I think it was published only in the "Gazette" the other day—the authority for altering Section 58. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would be able to give us an assurance that he will endeavour to lay such Papers on the Table of the House so that we may be able to keep track of them.

I come to another part of the administrative area of the Insurance Act; it is a very important part, and I heard what the hon. Gentleman said about it the other day with a good deal of misgiving and disappointment—I mean the Insurance Committees and District Committees, bodies which will be charged with most responsible administrative duties, bodies without whose activity you cannot really get this Act into full working order. I think we were told the other day that there are something like 260 Insurance Committees, and somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 District Committees—a very large body of officials, most of them, if not all of them, new to the work, none of them having a trained staff. I think they will find it will take them some considerable time, after they have been established, before they are able to do really valuable work. Let me remind the House that, amongst other things, the Insurance Committees have to administer the medical benefit; that is to say, they will have to make the arrangements with the doctors in their own areas, and that seems to be not at all an easy matter to do. They will have to manage the whole of the Deposit Insurance. That again is not going to be a very easy job to start with. They have to give their sanction under the Act to sanatorium benefit being given to anybody whom the doctor recommends to have it. These are three very responsible branches of the Insurance work. What steps are the Commissioners, taking to get these Insurance Committees formed? We know that they have to be constituted, as to their majority, by members of approved societies; therefore until you have approved societies, you cannot get any members from them. I imagine the Commissioners have not lost sight of the necessity of establishing these Committees at the earliest possible moment, and I should be glad if they will tell us what procedure they are going to recommend these societies to adopt in order that these Committees may be established and manned at the earliest possible moment.

These Committees, besides having difficult administrative problems to solve, have got to solve them under difficulties which they cannot avoid. The members of the Committees will be drawn from every part of the county—that is to say, that many of them will have to undertake very long journeys each time the Committee meets; that means that the Committee cannot meet often, and that, when it does meet, it will have an enormous amount of work to do. It will have no technical staff to advise it on points of difficulty, or to carry on the administrative work in the absence of the Sub-committees, which no doubt will be formed. They will want time to get in touch with the members, to get in touch with the insured persons, and with those who are responsible for carrying on the sanatoria. They want time to get that before they are in a position to discharge any of their duties. The hon. Gentleman told us the other night, and I was very sorry to hear it, that he was afraid that these Committees could hardly get to work before the middle of July, and he said that, in these circumstances, steps would have to be taken to administer the sanatorium benefit through some other means than the Insurance Committees. I think that is one of the great drawbacks in hurrying on this Bill, and trying to force it into operation before it is really due. You are going to start the administration of the sanatorium benefit under one authority, and in a very short time you will transfer the administration of that benefit from that authority to one which properly ought to administer it.

I should like to ask one further question with reference to this matter: whether any steps are being taken at the present moment to build sanatoria out of the large resources which were set apart by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? The Secretary to the Treasury told us the other day that there is a strong Committee sitting to investigate the whole question of sanatoria, and that he expected to have their Report very shortly. You do not, I think, need the Report of the Committee to start the work of building sanatoria in which this benefit may be given. I gather that the hon. Gentleman does not wholly share my view. At any rate, we have a good deal of experience to guide us. We have sanatoria in this country, and there are sanatoria built in the various parts of the Continent, and I should have thought that in a matter of such pressing urgency that the administration of the benefit could not be delayed, even for two or three months, and that the hon. Gentleman and the President of the Local Government Board would have got to work at once and would have started building these sanatoria. I am afraid that the greatest disappointment will be caused to people who based hopes upon one of the speeches of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I remember a speech in which he held out to those who were entitled to sanatorium benefit, the hope that they were going to get, in his own words, "a visit to a first-class hotel." When on the 16th July next a man invites—by the way, who will he invite?—I suppose he will invite the new authority which is going to be created by the Commissioners, the authority who are going to administer the benefit for a time —when he invites them to give him his ticket to the first-class hotel which the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised him, I believe he will be told that he must wait until the hotel is built, and that it is not yet quite ready for his entertainment. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) asked the hon. Gentleman what was being done in the matter of the alternative benefits which are empowered under Section 13. I think the hon. Gentleman said that he would call the attention of the Commissioners to the matter of Section 13. Has not their attention been called to it already?

I said I would call attention to the possibility of action under Section 78, to which the hon. Gentleman asked me to call the attention of the Commissioners, and to which, so far, none of the friendly societies have any power to call attention. The Commissioners have been paying attention and are paying attention to Section 13.

I am glad to know that the Commissioners have been considering Section 13. We should like to know what is the result of their deliberations. The Chancellor of the Exchequer held out hopes that those who wished to avail themselves of the alternative benefits under the Act would have no difficulty in doing so. I have here an extract from the same speech to which I referred just now, in which the right hon. Gentleman said:— number of men, women, and children engaged by the farmersin the fields, in various departments of agriculture, and so far as one can see at the present time, one cannot tell exactly how these people are going to be affected, and to whom their contributions are going to be paid. The Insurance Committees will not be in existence. There will be no one to administer the deposit insurance, so far as one can see, and I think it is of urgent need that the hon. Gentleman should tell us something, either in his leaflets or in his speeches, as to what provision is going to be made for that particular class of labour.

There is one little matter that I want to have out with the hon. Gentleman himself. We all know that it is a matter of great difficulty and of great complexity which naturally engages all his attention, and I am sure we all offer him our best wishes in the arduous work he has to do, because after all his is the hand that not only sets the course but controls the whole of the motive power. If I might borrow a metaphor from sea language, and I am afraid it is a source which springs too readily to our minds, he is the captain on the bridge and the chief engineer at one and the same time, and that being so and the hon. Gentleman being the supreme authority of all the authorities who administer this Act, because as Secretary to the Treasury as well as Chairman of the Joint Committee he is the seat of complete and ultimate power, we have a right to expect from him full and exact information. Some of his answers to questions are neither full, nor are they exact. I will only quote one, though if he would like, I will deal with other examples. A question that has interested a good many of us and a good many people in the country is whether or not the benefits which the Act proposes to confer are guaranteed or are not guaranteed. I remember when we were debating the matter the Chancellor of the Exchequer always said that the State could not possibly guarantee the benefits because, if it did, there would be no sort of control of the management of friendly societies. There would be extravagant administration and it was quite impossible for the State even to think of guaranteeing any benefit under the Act. The hon. Gentleman was asked:— This is his answer:—

The Financial Secretary has on several occasions twitted ns with endeavouring to make party capital out of the Act, and has said it is a thousand pities that they do not follow the example of the hon. Member for Sevenoaks and act up to the spirit of the speech which he made on the introduction of the Bill, and he has done me the honour to quote some words I used on that occasion, words of which I do not repent and which I mean to-day just as strongly as I meant then. When the hon. Gentleman quotes one portion of my speech it would be only fair to me if he quoted another. If he quoted a portion which came earlier I think he would see that it must govern our attitude as a whole. I then asked the House to remember that this Bill was not produced as charity, but as a matter of business, and it had to be treated as a matter of business, and they could only expect support if they justified it upon a business basis. After we had been discussing it as a matter of business for some weeks, we were subjected to the gag and to other forms of Closure. When you are dealing with any matter as a matter of business you do not stop the voice of the man with whom you are negotiating. You leave each party to the transaction the fullest liberty of stating his view of the case, and when you employ the Guillotine and the Closure in the House of Commons we cease to treat any measure that you are discussing as a matter of business. We shall be told that if we carry our Amendment the benefits which are promised by this Bill will be postponed, and that that will be a great disadvantage to a large number of people. I do not want to delay the benefits, but I am anxious to secure that the Bill shall come into operation complete and workable, and in such shape as really to give the benefit which it promises. It would be far better for all concerned if, while you proceed with all possible haste, you make sure of your ground at each step that you take, so that when the Act comes into operation it may be complete and fully understood. Then, and then only, will those who are entitled to its benefits have some solid ground for hoping that they will receive them.

5.0 P.M.

I wish to ask certain questions about the regulations which the Commissioners are about to make with regard to the admission of life insurance societies and companies under the Act. These companies were permitted to operate the Act on the one condition that they should be absolutely self-governed and under the control of their members. It is quite easy for these companies to establish a separate section which, while they are nominally self-governing, will in reality be as much under the direction of the board of directors of the main profit-making concern as the main profit-making concern itself. Let me take as an example the recent proceedings of the Liverpool Victoria Society. I select this society because it happens to fulfil the letter of the Act. It is a life insurance society, and it is self-governed. It is under the control of its members. It has 3,500,000 members. It is governed by one annual meeting. There is no system of representation. Every member has nominally a right to be present, but as the meetings are held far away from their homes in reality only an insignificant fraction of the members ever attend. The largest meeting that has been held of late years has not contained more than 1,000 members out of 3,500,000. The Liverpool Victoria has recently decided to form a separate section under the Act. There was a considerable proportion of the members who insisted that it would be better for the society not to frame a separate section, but to seek approval for the society as a whole. This supremely important question for the future of that society was determined at a meeting held in Manchester, away from the head offices of the society, away from the place where a large number of its members were to be found, and attended by only 300 members out of three and a half millions. A large number of life insurance companies will wish to operate this Act. The question which the Insurance Commissioners have to decide is whether the self-government which is to be imposed upon them is to be genuine or whether it is to be self-government of the Liverpool Victoria type. The danger which was foreseen when this Bill was before the House was that these companies will form separate sections, nominally self-governing, but that they will so pull the strings that the members of these separate sections will be deprived in reality of their control over the societies, and the societies will be entirely governed by the boards of directors of the main profit-making concern. If this happens it may lead at first to a certain ease of administration, but it will undoubtedly undermine the whole democratic foundation upon which this Bill is supposed to be based. I have here a copy of a circular letter which was sent by the secretary of the Liverpool Victoria to all the collectors of the society. It begins:— the board of the main society—

There is a small matter to which I wish to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. Under the Collecting Societies Act of 1896 the paid collectors of these societies are forbidden to attend and take part in the proceedings of annual meetings. That is, of course, a very proper condition, and it will, I presume, be applied to the separate sections of these societies. But what I wish to point out is that experience has shown, as a matter of fact, that the paid collectors of these societies are in a far more secure position than the paid clerks at the head offices, who are liable to dismissal at very short notice. Experience has shown, and proceedings in the Law Courts have shown, that these meetings have been manipulated by the power of the Board over the clerks at the head office, and not over the collectors. I therefore wish to suggest that any regulations issued to prevent paid collectors attending and taking part in the meetings of societies should also cover paid clerks at the head offices.

I wish to refer to the position of outworkers under the Act, a subject in which, as the hon. Gentleman opposite knows, I took great interest in the course of the discussions on the Bill. In his speech the hon. Gentleman said something about outworkers, but I am not sure that what he said covers the whole case. He told us that the Committee had nearly completed its labours, and I understood that, as a result of the work of that Committee, special orders were to be issued. I would point out that the conditions of the outworkers throughout the country vary immensely, and that their different conditions will have to be very closely examined. I do not think that one or two special orders would cover all the complexities of the case. Certain words were used by the hon. Gentleman in his speech, and I do not know whether they were intentioned. He said the Committee find "very great common opinion as to how the question can be dealt with, both from the masters and the men." In these days "man" does not include woman, and a very large number of the outworkers in whom I am interested are women. I hope the hon. Gentleman will see that their case is particularly carefully entered into. This question of special orders only applies to classes of outworkers who can be exempted under the Act, but as the hon. Gentleman knows, there is another class of outworkers who are exempted under the Act—not that they can be, but that they are. I have made some inquiries in the matter, and I have not heard as to them nor have I seen any leaflets in which the point is made very clear. They are married women who are the wives of insured persons and not wholly or mainly dependent on their earnings in that respect. I think that among the wealth of leaflets distributed throughout the country one little leaflet might have been spared to make it clear to these women that they are really exempted under the provisions of the Act.

I wish next to refer to seasonal workers. There is a Section of the Act that deals with them. Certainly the view I held during the course of the discussions was that special arrangements ought to have been made for seasonal workers—people who work some twenty-six to thirty-six weeks in the year, because of course under any arrangements that may be made these people must be almost in permanent arrears. They are allowed an average of four weeks in which no arrears count, but after that there is a gradual diminution of sickness benefit. What one was afraid of was that these people would be in the position of having deductions made from their wages during part of the year, and that when they wanted benefits they would either get no benefits or reduced benefits. That particular Clause went through without any discussion at all. It is very inadequate. It only provides that arrangements can be made that a less amount should be paid at certain times, and more paid at certain other portions of the year when, presumably, the people are employed. Therefore the whole amount of the contributions of employers and employed is not diminished one bit. I think it will be very difficult indeed to put that into operation. First of all during a portion, of the year these people are not in touch with the employers, and do not contribute anything. Be that as it may, there has been no leaflet issued, nor has any attempt been made to explain to these people what is to be the working of the Act. I think that seasonal workers, who are a considerable minority among the industrial population, ought not to be forgotten.

The next point is one I wish to criticise in a sympathetic spirit. The hon. Gentleman told us that these leaflets were published for the "man in the street," and not for M.P.'s and learned people of that sort, who ought to be acquainted with the details of the Act. That is my complaint. What it says about deposit contributors is correct, but it has to be read very carefully to see what the correct meaning is, otherwise it might lead to misunderstanding on the part of people who are not accustomed to deal with these matters. The leaflet says:— was to be paid out in the way of benefits. But there are deductions for administration, doctors, and sanatorium benefit. You want to make the deposit contributor a sort of bogey man and to show that the position ought to be avoided by anybody who can join a society. Surely you wish to show how disagreeable it is to be a deposit contributor, and that one in that class will not get anything like the amount for benefits in respect of payments put in by himself and employer. I think it might be made clearer still. The hon. Gentleman will remember that there is a limitation of this portion of the Act to three years. That Amendment was at first anonymous, and until the hon. Member for Hudders-field (Mr. Sherwell) rose nobody knew who the author of it was. He turned out to be the Gentleman who came and poured oil on the troubled waters. There is a leaflet on disablement benefit which says that when a person's right to sick pay is exhausted, because he has drawn it for twenty-six weeks, he is able, if still in capable of work, to draw 5s. a week, which is called disablement benefit. As stated there, I think the leaflet is strictly accurate, although it might be interpreted as not quite accurate when one remembers the history of the Clause, and how this particular Amendment was moved, which had the effect of cutting off a large amount of the benefit. But the benefit is very carefully stated, because this 5s. is to be paid on sicknesses arising out of and connected with sickness for which the sickness benefit has previously been paid. Therefore, if a man goes on being ill longer than twenty-six weeks, but is incapacitated, not in consequence of that particular illness, but in consequence of some other damage, there is no share in the sickness part of the benefit supervening to him. He might be deprived of the 5s. benefit. I think it should be made absolutely and definitely distinct to people in what circumstances they might get this 5s. Perhaps it might be distinguished also from the old age pension, with which it is sometimes confused.

Another point is erroneously stated. It says, "The State contributes 2d. towards every 9d." The moment that you think that they have made a terrible mistake they pull themselves up and say, "expended on benefits and the administration of benefits." But what is curious is this. There has been so much discussion about the State contribution of 2d. to be added to the 7d. that it would rather look as if those who drew up this possibly had got that difficulty into their heads, and meant to slide gradually and gently into the truth and not expose too disagreeably the mistakes of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the suggestion that the contribution of the State was 2d. to be added to the 3d. and 4d. of the others. The lectures of the lecturers have been brought before the House, and it has been stated on the other side by the right hon. Gentleman that enormous benefits had been produced by these lectures. I do not know whether the benefits were produced chiefly by the lectures of the ex-Unionist candidates, who have been brought out as a sort of stage army and seem to cover the iniquities of all the other lecturers all over the country, though I do not think their names have yet been disclosed, or whether they are still Unionists or are tending towards the Liberal party—

I am very glad that they have got some good men. The party opposite have really brought this difficulty and a great deal of the criticism of the lecturers upon themselves, because, personally, I am always disposed to err on the side of credulity and un suspiciousness; but even upon myself a very curious impression was made when these two different sets of lectures were started almost at the same time and when the Government announced that they were going to shoulder the whole responsibility of the Act themselves, and, I presume, also going to take any credit that is going to be made out of it. Then, I think, it was quite clear that there must have been a common origin to these two sets of lecturers, one paid at the Government expense to do, as it were, the dull part, and the other to do the more entertaining part at the expense of Liberal funds. And one could not help feeling perhaps that Liberal funds at that time were running rather low, and that in order to supplement them you had to start another set of lecturers paid at Government expenses, in order to do some other work which could not be done by Liberal lecturers. I strongly support the proposal for delay in bringing the Bill into operation on other grounds. You have got, if you can, and of course it is the object of the Government to do it, to bring into the societies, old and new, certainly millions of men and women who never belonged to any society before. Why have they not joined before? They have had an opportunity of joining these societies before, and no doubt they had some good reason for abstaining from joining them. First of all, one must remember that in order to join these societies—because liberty has been allowed to them—people have got to pass a medical examination, and that is a great deterrent to a large number of people. I dislike entirely myself having to see a doctor in order to pass him or for anything else. That is a common feeling. When the London County Council decided to set up a medical test for the drivers of their tramcars, because a certain number of men had died while driving the cars, there was the very greatest protest made by the tramway men, and it was very difficult to get them to pass an adequate medical test.

Then, from the point of view of all these people, they have got to distinguish, if they can, between the different societies which appeal for their support. There are the existing friendly societies, and new societies which are going to be formed, and small societies which are going to be combined, and also the sections of the industrial societies which were enabled to join in the work. I have had a talk with a number of agricultural labourers on these points—and I do not suppose that my experience is at all unique—but I found that a great many of these men do not really believe that anything like the Insurance Act is coming into force at all, much less in July. Many of these people have not the slightest idea that they are going to have 3d. deducted from their pay, and if you inform them that this will be so, with all the authority of a Member of Parliament, they merely smile at you. I believe that once you begin to set this Act into operation you will have an immense amount of indignation, arising no doubt from ignorance of the wonderful benefit which the Act is going to confer; and if the right hon. Gentleman would only take a little more time and instead of sending lecturers would himself explain the benefits of the Act to people who really know nothing about it, rather than to friendly societies, who really only want the difficult points to be explained to them, it would be a good thing to do. Then all the women also are going to come into it, and very many of them are utterly ignorant of the provisions of the Act and what has to be done in order to become a member of a friendly society.

As has been pointed out by the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington- Evans), all these different processes under the Act are to go on as far as possible pari passu. There would be approved societies, and you have also societies which have got to present their schemes for dealing with the funds which would be set free by the operation of the Act, and if they present these schemes they may not be already approved societies, so that there is really a sort of see-saw delay, whereas, if they were allowed to be provisionally approved, they could be allowed to get on with their schemes and the Act could be put into force far more rapidly. My hon. Friend below has spoken about alternative benefits. It is one of those matters of very great difficulty. It may apply even to individuals in societies, and also to classes of persons in societies, and before these societies can be approved and get their schemes out they have to do an immense amount of canvassing and inquiry among different sets of people. I have made inquiries about the local health insurance committees, and I do not think that any of them have yet been set up. That is a very difficult matter. You have not had the friendly societies approved, and you have not gone through also the elaborate process of combining all the small societies in the county or making one small society in the county combine with other societies of the same class in different parts of the county. That, again, must take a very long time, so it is obvious that your local health insurance committees must be delayed in being set up; and when they are set up, just think of the amount of business they have got to transact before you can make all these elaborate arrangements about the medical benefit, about dealing with the Post Office contributions and the sanatorium benefit, and all these other matters which are very complicated and will require to be thoroughly sifted by small committees appointed by these huge local insurance committees, which the House knows are to vary from something like forty to eighty members.

With all the difficulties we must feel that it is almost impossible to get the whole thing into working order by the time the Act comes into operation. Before you can teach the people who are going to pay you have got to teach the lecturers, and also, if I may say so with respect, you have got to teach some of the Commissioners as to the intricacies and complexities of this work. Now, about the position of the Treasury in this matter. We were told several things about it; we were led to believe that a great deal of independence had been given to these Commissionrs. It is a very peculiar position, because, as the right hon. Gentleman says, the Treasury, of course, has to criticise expenditure, and it is its business to do it. The way it does it is by criticising the expenditure of different Government Departments; but on this occasion you have got the difficulty that the Treasury is, as it were, at once the criticising Department and the expending Department; that generally gives rise to a very inconvenient class of criticism. How much liberty is really left to these Commissioners? Because, of course, they have very great powers under the Act, under Section 78, and so on. The right hon. Gentleman, first of all, said, rather indignantly, that, of course, the Treasury is responsible for the action of these Commissioners, and must defend what they do in the House. How far does that go? He said these words:—

I heard with surprise and regret from the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. W. Peel) that there were so many people in his constituency in a position of such ignorance respecting the Insurance Act, especially after he had acquainted us with the fact that he had been in constant communication with them. It is interesting to know what amount of criticism has been directed against an Act which has not yet come fully into operation. The chief argument seems to be that the arrangements are not sufficiently far advanced to allow of the Act coming into operation in July. It has been repeated again and again in the course of this discussion that the Act was rushed through the House, and that we are now just as desirous of rushing it into operation. But I am rather amused, when contemplating this objection, to learn that a league has just been called into existence, having for its object the amendment of the Act, and a resolution adopted at a meeting last night pledged that meeting to amendments which should be forced through the House speedily, in the interests of assured persons. I presume this to mean that those who hope ultimately to have the opportunity of amending the Act will be just as anxious to get their amending Bill speedily through the House as the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to get the original Act through. The question of the constitution of the Advisory Committee has been raised in regard to the disparity of representations as between trade unions and friendly societies. I have no knowledge of the methods of selection which were adopted, or how this disparity has been brought about; but the body is purely of an advisory character, and I presume that the undue representation, as some regard it, of trade unions, is attributable to the diversified character of the funds and organisation of trade unions. I think that is true of trade unions in a far greater degree than is the case with friendly societies.

Certainly, I am one of those who are prepared to acknowledge that if it is a question of voting, trade unions have no right to larger representation than their numerical strength warrants. On the other hand, if, as we understand, the purposes of this Committee is purely advisory, I do not see that much objection can lodge against the constitution on this particular point. It has been stated also that owing to speeches attributed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the operation of this Insurance Act, small friendly societis are being crushed out of existence. I do not think it can be urged that this is directly due to the Insurance Act, or even to the strength of the Chancellor's speeches. Everybody must be aware of the fact that this tendency towards the dissolution of small friendly societies had been observed long before that measure was introduced into this House, and for my own part I cannot regard it as an objectionable development. Everybody will see that a number of small societies are fulfilling their objects in an uneconomic fashion, and are not performed by them so well as by the larger organisations. For my own part, I confess to some amount of suspicion in regard to this extreme anxiety for the retention of small societies. I have acquaintance with some small societies that are founded on a political basis. I am always strongly opposed to friendly societies being of a political or even a religious complexion, which I have always regarded as undesirable elements. If a small society is to be bolstered up it does not initiate that spirit of self-reliance which we have always, claimed to be such a laudable quality in friendly societies. In so far as developments are driving out small and uneconomic societies, I think such a movement is not one that we ought to lament. There is a good deal to commend it, because it must be of ultimate advantage to the members of friendly societies as a whole.

I confess that I deeply regret that we have not yet succeeded in coming to a satisfactory arrangement with the medical profession. In the early stages of this measure I had the privilege of saying in the House on several occasions that I recognised that without the hearty co-operation of the doctors the fullest advantage could never accrue from a measure of this character, and I am still hopeful that a satisfactory adjustment will be effected. I hope, on the one hand, the doctors will not lay themselves open to the charge of being unreasonable, nor that those who are now responsible for the administration of the Act can ever have it said of them that they are other than anxious that a fair and adequate reward should be given to the doctors for the highly qualified services they have to render. I would point out to the doctors that they themselves are running a great risk. If it is impossible to arrive at a satisfactory adjustment, I fear that they will be forced back upon the methods of which they have so long complained. I have a very wide experience of friendly societies, and I have very considerable sympathy with doctors. Perhaps the House will bear with me if I give an illustration brought to my notice last week. The doctor of a Manchester Unity Lodge felt dissatisfied with the remuneration awarded him by the society. Therefore he sought a revision of the agreement between himself and the society. The amount he was generally paid was 4s. per head, exclusive of medicine. The revision that he suggested to the friendly society was that he should be paid 2s. 6d. per head for the medical attendance, and that the members should provide themselves with medicine distinct and apart from the arrangement with the doctor. I am informed that the members of the friendly societies gladly accepted the suggestion of their doctor. They entered into an agreement with him whereby they undertook to pay the suggested rate of 2s. 6d. per head. They then immediately invited tenders from chemists in the town for a supply to their members of the requisite medicine, and they have now entered into an undertaking with a chemist in that town who will provide them with medicine at 9d. per head. [An HON. MEMBER: "Where as this?"] It is in the Isle of Man, the Victoria Lodge; there is no reason why the name should not be mentioned. In consequence of this arrangement the society find themselves better off than they were previous to the arrangement made with the doctor.

So long as we have these cases still in existence—and I know that they might be indefinitely duplicated—I recognise that the medical profession very often suffer injustice, but I have repeatedly enforced this point, that the doctors themselves are in considerable measure responsible for the unsatisfactory arrangements of which they now complain. Their case is really that a doctor cannot do justice to a patient, and certainly the friendly society is not doing justice to the doctor, so long as those conditions prevail. That is why I have expressed sympathy with the medical profession in so far as their just demands are concerned, and I am still hopeful, because I am a believer in this Act, and because I recognise that the co-operation of the doctors is necessary in order to make it as efficient as it should be, that the satisfactory adjustment for which I am anxious will be effected. I rose particularly for the purpose of addressing to the hon. Gentleman in charge of the defence of the measure this afternoon a question which was brought under the notice of the party with which I am associated. We have had during the past day or two communications sent to us to this effect, that certain of the friendly societies are proposing in the revised rules that are now being drafted in respect of the Insurance Act, and which are to be submitted for registration, to discriminate against men who are officials of trade union organisations—that is to say, they want to provide that an official of a trade union shall be for all time disqualified from becoming an official of their friendly societies. This seems to me to be a violation of the Act.

We did not understand that it would be within the competence of an approved society to discriminate against men by adopting a condition of that kind. When my attention was first directed to it I could hardly conceive it to be possible. I quite see that there might be a keen competition, or, if you prefer it, a keen rivalry, between friendly societies and trade unions to obtain members. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans) is of opinion that their interests would be served by working the ordinary friendly societies as against trade unions. I do not quarrel with his opinion on that point, but I, at any rate, never felt that the rivalry would be so keen as to cause friendly societies to seek to set up a barrier against trade union officials. I apprehend their fear is that if a man gets into office in a friendly society who is also an official of a trade union, he may use his position inside that society in order to direct membership towards the trade union. At first I was incredulous as to this matter, but it is nevertheless the fact that the evidence brought to us has been of such a character as to induce us to believe that there is something in it. I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether a rule of that character would be registered by the Registrar when submitted for his consideration, and whether it is competent for any society becoming an approved society to set up a discrimination against men merely on the score that they are officials of trade unions.

I welcome the moderation of tone with which the hon. Member, according to his usual manner, has spoken of the difficulties connected with the Insurance Act. His remarks on the subject of the medical profession are in striking contrast to those of the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth), who made the medical profession, which is so valuable to the working of the measure, the subject of special attack. I can assure the hon. Member who is responsible for the administration of the Act that I rise in no spirit of mere attack. No one would be more anxious than I, and those of my colleagues who equally represent the medical profession, that the Act should come into operation consistently with justice both to the members of the friendly societies and the medical profession. I am certainly expressing the views of the medical profession when I say that. Then the hon. Member for Pontefract seemed to see something inconsistent in our action when we praised the Act when it was first introduced, and afterwards found reason to criticise the proceedings which took place at a later stage. Is there any inconsistency in our position in this respect? We agree that the object of the Act is thoroughly praiseworthy. We are anxious to aid it, in making it as efficacious for the attainment of that object as we possibly can. But the very essence of the success of the Act was that an Act of Parliament driving so deep into all the economic conditions of this country should be a matter of careful consideration and should be carefully weighed and reasoned upon, and should not be botched or hurried through in a fashion which was certain to lead to difficult and prolonged discussions, and to interfere with its subsequent operations.

Is there anything in which the evil results of that botching consideration of the Act is more apparent than in regard to the medical profession? The hon. Member for Pontefract said that it is absurd to consider that the medical benefits should be of the essence of the Act at all, and that it was absurd for my hon. Friend the Member for the University of London to say that to introduce this Act without having the medical benefits was like playing the drama of "Hamlet" without the part of the Prince of Denmark. That is absolutely true. Is it not absolutely the most essential and central part of this Act that the medical benefit should be satisfactory. Was not that the argument on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer frequently based his defence of this Bill at all its stages. After all, what is the real difference between one man and another in this country? Is there any difference in position or in status or in wealth that will make up for the enormous difference between the healthy man and the unhealthy man. Would not the richest man in the country in bad health give up all his possessions for the health of the ordinary tramp with- out a penny in his pocket? Would anyone be content—I do not say to lose his life, but even to drag on a life burdened and weakened by all sorts of health disabilities, due to bad surroundings of his youth rather than be content to purchase those by any amount of the endowment of the wealth of this world? The real central point in this Bill is that we should improve the health of the people, and unless you come to an arrangement with the great profession, for a large part of which I venture to speak, you cannot carry out that operation. Health for the man himself and those nearest and dearest to him and those dependent on him is far more than any pitiful money payment that you can give him under any Clause of this Act.

What have you been attempting to do? Speaking for the medical profession, we pointed out that you were endeavouring to press all those who belong to the working classes down into one low level, and to force them, whether they desire it or not, to be dealt with by what is called contract practice, a degrading practice both to those who receive it and to those who give it. The hon. Member who spoke last said that the doctors were in a large measure to blame for the position which had grown up. I admit that the doctors have allowed it to grow up, but I do not admit that they are to blame for it. When there was no National Insurance Act, and when the health of the people had to be attended to one way or another, the doctors did admit as a pis aller the possibility of contract practice, but they always pointed out its defects and evils. They declined to increase it, and they narrowed it down as far as they possibly could, and they were determined that it should not go beyond a certain limit. They were ready to do it because it dealt with the very poorest, and those who were sunk below the level of self-sustenance and independence. There was no other way of dealing with those than by contract practice, as you could not expect them to pay anything. The medical profession acted generously in that matter, and I think it is unfair to cast up to them now that they were prepared to deal with the very poorest and most helpless class at a loss to themselves, and with a burden which it was often very difficult for them to bear. But they had their recompense in the willing payment made by the well-to-do working classes.

I am perfectly certain if you had accepted the Amendment, which we moved in Committee and which was negatived, limiting the operation of the medical benefits so far as contract practice was concerned merely to those who were earning less than £2 per week, you would have provided a very satisfactory solution. What will be the result 1 We are now told if the doctors will not go into the work on those terms, and if the doctors are firm to their six resolutions and refuse to give way, that then you will pay all medical benefits to the various assured persons and leave them to make their bargain with the doctors. Is that not precisely what we asked you to do, not in regard to the poorest class, which I think you are very unfairly and very cruelly abandoning, but with regard to the well-to-do class and those who earn something more than 40s. per week? The hon. Member for Pontefract absolutely announced that that was his idea, and to let the assured people make their bargain with the doctors. But is that fair with regard to the poorest class? Would it not have been well to have accepted our Amendment to have left the poorest class to be dealt with and to have their medical attendance given on the easier terms and to leave perfect freedom and elasticity to those who occupied a higher position amongst the working classes? That is really what you want. You are striving under the hard and fast rules of your Act to depress the whole working classes of the country down to the level of the lowest amongst them, the poorest and most helpless. Give that poorest and most helpless class all the help you can, and in doing so you will, and I speak on their behalf, receive the most generous assistance from the medical profession. I am perfectly certain I am not saying anything on their behalf that they would not be prepared, one and all, to agree with. But do leave those above that lowest class free to make their bargain with the doctors, free to choose their doctor, free in their relations with him!

Allow perfect liberty to the doctor and patient. In following that course you would be following the course that agrees with the constituent elements of our society, and you will not be running contrary to the great economic laws which regulate that society. You will allow things to settle themselves, and I think that by a free settlement of that kind you will do far greater justice to the medical profession and to those who are to be benefited by this Act. Above all things, do not let a suspicious atmosphere arise. Be reasonable, and the medical profession will meet you, but do not ask them to take up this work blindly at a price which they have proved over and over again by the most clear and absolute statistics would not give them a living wage, and which would make a man pay about five thousand visits in order to get a pittance: of £200 or £250 a year. If you bring the great mass of the medical profession down to that level, do you think you will maintain it at the level at winch it is to-day? Do you think you will have science pursued with the same ardour and a class of doctors who will really contribute their share to the building up of a healthy and prosperous nation? I am convinced it is by leaving freedom, and freedom alone, to those who are able to pay and who wish to select their doctor that you will put this Act into satisfactory operation. Do not begin by accusing the doctors of being selfish or adopting a dog in the manger policy or of being animated by the desire to make your Act work badly. The doctors are ready to meet you. I say that the only alternative is by granting that freedom which we vainly attempted when the Act was passing through this House to have inserted.

I can only speak again by leave of the House, but I have reason to believe that that leave will be granted, especially when I make the preliminary announcement that I have no intention of dealing with anything controversial. I am only speaking in order to reply to certain questions, and also in order to give certain information which I think will be interesting, especially to those Members of the House who have made a special study of the working of the Insurance Act. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken made an appeal to us with regard to the medical profession of the tone and temper of which I can assure him I have nothing to complain. I repeat on that subject what I said last week. We are to have a special Debate entirely confined to that question, and, if I may be permitted to do so, I would sooner reserve any statement I may have to make until that Debate on the medical question, which, I think, is coming on next week. The only thing I would say on the general statement is that certainly speaking for myself, and I think with the agreement of both the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer and. of the Commissioners, we shall certainly exhaust all the possibilities of negotiation and agreement in order to try to produce the smooth and amicable working of the normal system as it is suggested in the Act and approved by the House of Commons, and that it will only be if such negotiations prove impossible that we shall put into force any other of the alternatives which the Act empowers of the Commissioners to put in force. I am not without hope that as the result of investigation and negotiation, both of which are necessary in this question some complete measure of agreement may be attained.

6.0 P.M.

Certain specific questions were put to me by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Forster), and I will try and answer them one by one. The first was a criticism of the fact that the Advisory Committee has only just been set up, and a statement that the operations necessary to put the Act into full force had been delayed owing to the delay in setting up the Advisory Committee. That is not so. All regulations which have been necessary have been laid before Parliament without being submitted to this Advisory Committee. There has been no delay in the work of any of the four Insurance Commissions or of the Joint Committee due to any delay in the setting up of the Advisory Committee. Nor is it necessary for the Advisory Committee to be in operation in order that societies may be approved. In fact so little is it necessary that it was evidently in the contemplation of Parliament when preparing the Act that societies should be approved before the Advisory Committee was set up. If there has been any delay in the approval of societies, it has been due not to the operation of the Commission, but to the work which the societies have necessarily had to undertake to pass their resolutions and adjust their rules before applying for approval. That delay, I think, was fully anticipated when the six months' waiting period was set up. I think my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, stated in the House or outside that the first two or three months of those six months would probably be devoted to deliberation, and the last three months to administration. The time of deliberation is now drawing to a close, and I think I can assure the House that practically all the necessary steps have been taken in order that the various regulations necessary to be put into force before next July will be in full operation before that period. The hon. Gentleman asked me why there was a so much larger number of representatives of trade unions than representatives of the great affiliated friendly societies. That, I think, has been answered in part by the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich. No one ever contemplated that the Advisory Committee would do more than give advice, and each member was selected as a man who would be useful in himself to give advice. Certainly, I do not anticipate that anything like a vote will be taken, or that the opinion of the majority will over-ride the opinion of the minority in the matter.

I do not anticipate it. I anticipate that the advice of every single member of the Advisory Committee will be taken into consideration by the Commissioners—certainly the advice of any considerable body. Nor do I at all anticipate that the advice of the Advisory Committee will necessarily be operative on the Commission. They are strictly to give advice, which will be exceedingly useful, and that is their sole function. In considering the number of members of trade unions who should be invited, our sole consideration was the complexity of the various trades. Although it is quite true that the members of trade unions will largely represent approved societies, because many of the trade unions are going to become approved societies, the hon. Gentleman is quite correct in saying that they do not so directly represent approved societies as those who now stand for the great friendly societies. They more strictly represent the special interest of special trades, and in choosing the Advisory Committee the work of the Sub-committee that chose them was to take the groups of various trades as they are laid down in the Board of Trade published list, and to see that all the various occupations and industries carried on in this country received due representation upon the Advisory Committee. It was not always possible to obtain that' through the trade unions. In districts where trade unions are weak—such, for example, as agricultural districts—we have to go outside the trade unions in order to find representatives of agriculture. The same applies to representatives of domestic servants. But, as far as possible, in the great organised trades of the country, we chose trade union representatives as representing those organised trades. That is the reason why we found it difficult to reduce the number below the number finally issued when the Advisory Committee was appointed. Of course, everyone will agree that if we have erred in any way it is in making the Advisory Committee too large rather than too small. We adopted the process of boiling down until we could not make it any smaller.

The hon. Member for Sevenoaks commented on the sparse representation of small societies. It was very difficult to obtain representatives of the small societies, because there is very little organisation among them. I submit that if he considers the names of those who represent small societies he will perhaps consider that the quality of them makes up for the lack of quantity, more especially when I remind him that the hon. Member for the Wilton Division (Mr. C. Bathurst) is one of the most prominent of them. All the four representatives of small societies, every one of whom is in close touch with large numbers of small societies, especially in agricultural districts, will be able fully to place before us special advice in regard to the special needs of these societies. In fact, I should like publicly to state that the hon. Member for the Wilton Division has been in close communication with us and has largely helped us in dealing with the small societies. I wish that all hon. Gentlemen sitting on the benches opposite would show similar activity and render similar assistance. The hon. Member for Sevenoaks commented on the fact that small societies were dissolving. I am glad to say that I have heard from the Registrar of Friendly Societies that the dissolution process seems to have ceased as more complete information is being obtained as to the working of the Act and its effect "upon the societies. The hon. Member suggested that certain statements made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the effect that the rural labourer is to acquire greater independence through the existence of rural societies have made gentlemen in the country disinclined to assist in the making of small societies. I never imagined that the statement that the labourers would be more independent necessarily bore a Radical complexion, or that the hon. Gentleman and his Friends opposite regarded that fact as being hostile to their own political organisations.

I hope the hon. Gentleman will use his influence amongst his Radical landowning friends to explain that both parties fervently desire the independence of the rural labourers. I have here a statement which may interest the House. I do not quote it in any controversial spirit, but as showing how not only statements made by my right hon. Friend, but statements made in all good faith by hon. Gentlemen opposite, may have, and are having, effect in connection with the dissolution of rural societies. One of our lecturers was invited to go to a certain rural district in order to explain to a meeting of small rural societies the exact effect of the Act, and this was his experience:—

"All those present represented friendly societies, and at the beginning of the meeting clamoured for dissolution. When I left this parish I was informed that the societies' officials had decided to formulate a scheme, and would endeavour to make a fresh start in the working of their bodies and to keep solvent. My difficulty was largely due to the statements of previous speakers, and I was given to understand that in Mr. Worthington-Evans' work, Section 55 (2), there is a statement that 'on a person joining a society,' instead of 'a person joining an approved society,' and the societies thought that no reserve values would be credited except in respect of new members, and they therefore decided to dissolve."

I am not using that in controversy against the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Worthington-Evans). I am using it in controversy only to this extent—that when he criticised somewhat meticulously some of the statements of our lecturers, he might also realise that a, statement made by himself in all good faith in a publication of his own has been producing this unforeseen result in the country. Perhaps he might be more kindly in his criticisms afterwards and persuade his Friend, the hon. Member for Salisbury (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson) not to speak of the lecturers as being a set of unlearned and foolish individuals, when the statements of even so great a pundit as himself may have such unexpected results.

I do not wish to intervene, but I do not like being called a pundit. I have not referred to the Section named by the hon. Member, and I do not know exactly to what he is referring, but I do not believe that there is in that Section anything which is not a fair reproduction of what is in the Act of Parliament. It is not my fault if the Act is not clear.

I am glad to withdraw the term "pundit" if it is objectionable to the hon. Member. I will communicate with him concerning the Section. I think he will find that owing to an omission—I might remind him that last Thursday he was criticising what he called omissions in our pamphlet—owing to the omission of a word which ought to have been in his explanation he has been producing in a remote village this most disastrous result.

Does the hon. Gentleman say that that result naturally followed from the omission of the word?

I cannot say. I say that it was misleading to these people, and that it was leading to a disastrous action owing to the omission of this word. If he was clearly interpreting the Act he ought to have put in the word.

Will the hon. Member say where this was, and give the name of the society?

I do not wish to name the village. I will communicate afterwards with the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Member for Sevenoaks asked whether I would arrange that any regulations or ordinances or anything done by the Treasury in connection with the Act should be laid on the Table of the House. I can assure him that my sole desire is to communicate the fullest information on every occasion, whether by way of question and answer or by laying documents upon the Table of the House. I realise that the Insurance Commissioners have been given a kind of quasi-independent position. I realise further that it would be quite disastrous if the Insurance Commissioners or any such Government Department drifted out of touch with the House of Commons. From the moment I received my appointment as Chairman I have always regarded it as one of the chief of my duties to keep the House of Commons in touch with the Insurance Commissioners. Any kind of information or any kind of documents that may be issued by the Insurance Commission I shall be only too delighted to put at the disposal of Members of the House. I was asked also about the Insurance Committees. The hon. Member said it was a serious matter that, although the Act was to come into operation on 15th July, the Insurance Committees in the counties had not yet been set up. Steps are being taken to prepare for the setting up of these Committees. As the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, the difficulty of sudden action is that the Committees must be representative of the insured persons in the district, and it may be that we shall be compelled to set up, first, provisional committees.

I think that all the hon. Member's criticisms, if I may say so, rather rested on the implied assumption that the whole Insurance Act had to come into force on 15th July. That, I agree, will be impossible. I quite frankly recognise that. The Insurance Act really comes into force in January—the second week in January—and nine-tenths of the regulations, and certainly four-fifths of the work of the Insurance Committees will not be affected in the least by the coming into operation of the Act on 15th July. Arrangements for the collection of contributions and the administration of what sanatorium benefit is possible with existing accommodation are the only two things that are necessary to come into operation on 15th July. It is not even strictly necessary that there should be a single approved society, though I hope there will be many hundreds, if not many thousands, of approved societies by that time. So long as we can assure Members on both sides of the House that the Insurance Commissioners can see their way to arrange that the contribution system and some provision for sanatorium benefit shall come into operation by 15th July, I think there is no real warrant for anyone voting for the Amendment before the House. All it means is that we have not, as the hon. Member seems to suggest, three-months in which to establish several hundreds, if not several thousand, insurance committees, but nine months. I hope that long before the preparation which is needed, and the negotiations with the doctors, or before the establishment of the medical benefit is really required, all these insurance committees will be in actual being. The hon. Member asked me about sanatoria. I would ask him if he would suspend his criticism on that matter until the Report is published of the Tuberculosis Committee. The Committee is not a Committee of the Insurance Commission: it is a Committee which includes representatives of the Local Government Board and other Government Departments, and has on it distinguished medical men who are specially concerned in the running of great sanatoria in this country. The Committee is so impartial as to have a Conservative Member of Parliament as chairman.

I believe the Committee are now considering their Report. The Report is in proof. Criticisms are being considered, and I hope that certainly next week the Report will be published and, if possible, in the hands of every Member of this House. It is a Departmental Committee, and not a private Committee of the Commission. I want every Member of the House to read that Report, because I think it is a most important Committee, dealing with a most important subject. I think when that Committee has reported that hon. Members will find there may be less need for direct pressure suddenly to create, sanatorium buildings, which may not be the kind required, and more need for the provision of arrangements which can be provided at once for carrying out sanatorium benefit in other ways besides those hotels to which the hon. Member referred. The hon. Member asked me about Clause 13. I refer especially to the criticism made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Colchester as to whether we could not use Section 78 to make a temporary alteration in Clause 13. Since the hon. Member made his speech on Thursday last, I have inquired, and I cannot find that any friendly societies have applied for approval or have asked us to give them this permission. I think I can promise the hon. Gentleman, in the name of the Commission, that if such permission is required it will be given. The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right in saying that certain actuarial calculations are necessary before any scheme can be devised for alternative benefits—that is to say, before the exact pounds, shillings, and pence can be determined and placed before the members. It will still be possible, though, for approved societies to say that they are prepared to give such alternative benefits as are possible under the scheme. The chief thing necessary is the publication of tables of reserve value. Those have been prepared by Mr. Watson, who has been working at great pressure with a very competent actuarial committee—I think probably the best that could have been got together in this country—and I hope before the end of next week that some of these tables will be in possession of the House, and those interested outside. So far as I can find, however, especially in connection with those ladies who have some special right to speak for the class of domestic servants, there does not seem to be that keenness to adopt alternative benefits that last autumn we thought might exist, and which some hon. Gentlemen in this House pressed upon us. Inquiries have been made amongst the domestic servants, and they seem to have come to the conclusion that the normal method of giving medical benefit and sick pay, insurance in societies that servants can join, will to a very large extent be the most welcome form of benefit. Suggestions are being made as to alternative benefits, such, as for example, superannuation allowance.

By some of the ladies who are connected with the Commission or with the Advisory Committee, and who have had some special reason to be familiar with the opinion of the domestic servants. I am not putting it higher than that. I dare say alternative benefits, and an alternative scheme, may be required, but I was only giving to the House information that has been given to me. The next point raised was the question of casual labour. I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sevenoaks as to the very great importance of this matter, and the great importance, not only of decisions on the matter by the Commission, but of the information being given upon the Act as it stands, apart from those decisions. The English Commission is engaged in active work in connection with the matter. Amongst other work it is engaged in connection with the chief employers of casual labour in certain towns, such as dockyard towns, where there is, if I may call it so, a regular system of casual labour. They find that the employers will welcome suggestions, and have given their co-operation in the matter. I hope that through the cooperation of the employers some of the evils which were anticipated in connection with the Insurance Act in its relation to casual labour may be obviated, and that a large number of casual labourers who work for many employers regularly may be put under such conditions that they may come under the benefits. There is also action to be taken in connection with the seasonal agricultural trade. I myself have looked into this question, and I should have received a deputation this afternoon if I had been able to do so. I agree here with the Member for Seven-oaks that special steps must be taken both by employers and employed as to their position in this matter. The hon. Gentleman concluded with a personal attack upon myself in connection with the information that I give from time to time on the floor of the House by way of question and answer. I am sorry that he criticised my action in this House. My criticism of myself was that I was taking up too much of the time of the House by these questions and answers on the Insurance Act. I can only assure him and the hon. Members opposite generally that in any answers to questions that I have framed my sole desire has been to give in the fullest possible fashion the information which hon. Members desired. Whatever may have been said about the Act when it was the subject of Parliamentary controversy, now it is the law of the land there is really no object in trying to conceal anything. I have always acted on that view, whether I have been wrong or not in some of my interpretations.

The hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton asked me about self-government in connection with the collecting societies. I believe it is a very difficult question. It was fully debated in this House when the Insurance Act was being passed, and certain conditions were laid down by this House. It is difficult, in a sense, to say how you can secure self-government for collecting societies that have a million members. Our best regulations may prove to be paper regulations. What we have to do is to get information on the subject. The Commissioners have been in constant negotiation with the members of these societies during all these months, and I think, when the conditions under which these societies are to be approved are in the possession of Members of the House they will agree that the Commissioners have done all that is possible, and have been very freely and fairly met by the administrative bodies of the societies with a view to ensuring the largest possible measure of self-government. This will include, among other things, not only arrangements in connection with the governing body, but arrangements, not for providing one meeting in some isolated place, but district meetings to be held all over the country in connection with these societies, and also in certain conditions ballots to be taken of the members.

There may be one method, or you may have another, of a series of district meetings consisting of members themselves. Various methods have been suggested. We certainly have no intention of laying down a hard and fast, cast-iron method to be adopted by all, so long as the Commissioners are satisfied that there are complete powers of self-government vested in the hands of the members. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton asked me a question concerning the position of the outworkers. He complained that I spoke only of men, and did not include the most important class of outworkers. Of course, as he knows, in all these Acts of Parliament "men" includes "women." Certainly, when I said representatives had been consulted of the various classes of outworkers, I think I should be justified in saying that the special Committee appointed had consulted quite as many, if not more, women representatives of trades as men representatives. I never meant to convey, as he seemed to think, that the Report of this Committee, which includes amongst its members representatives from all parts of the House—the Noble Lord the Member for South Nottingham specially concerned himself in this matter—would be a final decision. When that Committee has reported, and the Report is in the hands of Members, then the question will arise as to whether regulations, and, if so, what regulations; whether special orders, and, if so, what special orders, shall be formulated in connection with these problems of the outworkers. If any special order is made, for instance in connection with outworking married women in the Bill, will it require a special order? If any such special order is made, that, of course, would have to come under the operation of the special orders as laid down in the Act. When a provisional order is made, full inquiry will take place, and everyone who objects will be allowed to fully put their views before an impartial inquiry before the special order will become operative. So the hon. Member need have no fear of anything being rushed through the Committee. As to the seasonal workers, I quite agree with him that that is also a very important problem to be considered. We shall probably be able in a short time, if he will be good enough to put a question down, to tell him as to what the decision finally is to be in the matter.

About that time. Then as to the deposit contributors. I must make a correction of a statement in the pamphlet of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Eastbourne, which he proposed should be published as a Government pamphlet; a statement made again today by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton. The statement, put in the form of Question and Answer by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Eastbourne, was to the effect that 4s. of the accumulated funds of the deposit contributors were to be taken every year for administrative expenses. There is no such statement in the Act. No such calculation has been made. No such amount has been prescribed by regulation.

No, certainly not. Four shillings is the maximum amount which the actuaries consider it safe to allow for administrative purposes for approved societies. The administration of deposit contributors is quite a different problem. Nor, although the actuaries allow 4s. as the maximum, they do not assume—in fact they very greatly hope it will not—that the 4s. will be the amount really required in the great majority of cases.

That is a matter of regulation which will have to be laid down by the Insurance Commission. Until it is laid down—and it means investigation as a condition of membership as a deposit contributor—I think it will be a great mistake to prejudge the issue in a pamphlet without any kind of justification. Long before their benefits begin to come into operation regulations will be laid down.

I always try to give the Noble Lord the information he wishes, but he does not always take my advice.

I do not want to dogmatise, that would be a mistake; or to say that the limitation of 4s.—I think it is now 3s. 8d.—as laid down as the contribution towards the administrative expenses is the maximum and not the minimum.

I do not want to be drawn into making a dogmatic statement, but I think it will be, on the whole, less, because a great deal of the work done by the friendly societies must be paid work. Then the hon. Member says we have got to bring millions of men and women into the societies; medical examination would be demanded of them, which millions of men and women would object to.

Well a very large number. I think it is a very remarkable fact, and well worth the attention of the House, that we find that a large number of the great friendly societies have repudiated medical examination, and, except in certain cases, are willing to run the risk of taking a man for benefits without a medical examination.

Has the hon. Member seen the form of declaration which these societies require? It is practically a medical test taken by the applicant himself.

Yes. The objection was quite a good one, and it was pointed out that it had a very strong effect, for instance, upon taxi-cab drivers in London. The objection was to being forced to undergo a medical examination for membership of a society, and we now find that the great societies are not enforcing that, and I think a great number of the other societies will follow their example, and will take them without medical examination, unless in those special cases where there is reason to believe that there is a special risk of infirmity.

They require a personal declaration. Many of us would be very glad to do that, who would be afraid to stand a medical examination. The Member for Taunton (Mr. Peel) said, and from my knowledge, I quite agree with him, that in his conversations with agricultural labourers he found that many people had the idea that the Act will not come into force. On that point I have appealed again and again to this House, because the Commissioners realise the importance of it, for suggestions or assistance such as no doubt hon. Gentlemen gave to his agricultural labourers, assuring them that the Act will come into force, whatever party wishes it to do so or not to do so. On that point, I would suggest that the mere postponement of the Act would not make very much difference. If you postponed it for three or six months, the people who now do not think that the Act will come into force would still think it would not come into force, just as there were many who thought that about old age pensions and waited outside the post offices to see if they would not be spirited away into the workhouses instead of getting their 5s. a week. A large number of those who now think it will be postponed would make up their minds that it was postponed indefinitely, that perhaps another Government would come in, and that such drastic amendments would be made as practically to create a new Act. Therefore I would submit that the particular objection which he says there is to bring the Act into force, would equally apply if we carried the Motion now before the House. I agree that there will be thousands, tens of thousands of men in the remoter rural areas who will have no real belief that such an act is coming into force despite all the efforts we can make to assure them. The Commissioners are taking special steps, I hope with the approval of all parties in the House, in that respect. Now that the lecturers have largely carried out their educative work among the friendly societies and trade unions the Commissioners are taking special steps to deal with such classes as domestic servants and people in the remoter villages in order that they may realise the great benefits that are coming to them in the near future.

The hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. G. H. Roberts) made a special point as to whether friendly societies were discriminating against trade union officials. I have no information on the subject, and I should be glad if he would make the information which he has, available for myself and the Commissioners, and I will make inquiries into what the facts of the case are. I think that answers most of the specific questions which were asked. In a very few words, may I be allowed to say, because I think it will interest Members on both sides of the House, what is the actual work which up to this moment has been done, and in the immediate future is going to be done by the Insurance Commissioners. In the work of supplying information, up to the present over 6,000,000 leaflets and pamphlets have been issued, and still the demand for them remains unsatisfied, and I hope many more millions will be issued in the next few weeks, because they are evidently providing most useful and necessary material. In the matter of lectures and meetings, something like 3,200 lectures and meetings have been held, and something like 1,300 more have been up to the present arranged, and when hon. Gentlemen remember that in the great majority of cases, in these 3,000 odd meetings, the sole work of the Government has been to provide a lecturer, whilst the expenses of getting up the meeting and advertising it and other incidental requirements have been borne by those who desire the meetings, I think they will see that there was a real demand for these meetings. People do not squander their money in a matter of this kind in that fashion unless they really want the information required. In the matter of the special difficulties which were referred to the Commission by Parliament three Committees have been sitting and two are on the verge of reporting. One of these dealt with outworkers, and it dealt exhaustively with that matter. It contained two Members of this House. The second is the Tuberculosis Committee, which I hope also will report in a few days, and the third Committee is now considering a problem in which many Members of this House are interested and upon which I have been asked a good many questions, and that is the problem of the various Government and municipal employés who are at present working under special schemes for sickness and superannuation, and whether these schemes are equal in advantage to the scheme of the Act.

To-day another Committee has been appointed which I think will meet with approval. It has to consider and report as to the staff which should be required, the nature of the staff which will be required outside the offices in the four countries for the administration of the Insurance Act, and, secondly, in what way that staff should be recruited, either by examination or otherwise. A very distinguished ex-civil servant (Sir Francis Mowatt) is chairman, and I think that when the names are published to-night Members on both sides of the House will be convinced that the Committee will examine and report in a thoroughly impartial and non-political manner, upon this problem which has caused a considerable trouble to Members on all sides of the House with regard to the patronage under the Act.

Yes, there are a great number of sub-Committees, but I did not want to trouble the House with them. I was only referring to Inter-Departmental Committees. These other Committees have considered the framing of regulations and two necessary regulations have been already submitted to the House, namely the regulations for the constitution of unregistered societies and the regulations for the constitution of separate sections of societies. Regulations dealing with administration expenses of approved societies, with the collection of contributions and with the problem of collecting cards and stamps; regulations dealing with the accounts, forms and books to be kept by approved societies; with the behaviour of insured persons during sickness; with the time prescribed for joining an approved society; and regulations dealing with intermediate employers and sub-contractors, and with the gathering together of several employers of one insured person, such as the charwoman or jobbing gardener—all these regulations have been prepared by various sub-Committees and will be submitted to the Advisory Committee, and as speedily as possible will be laid before the House. Some of these things are not necessary before January, but we regard it as desirable that these questions should be settled as soon as possible.

As to the work of approval of societies four sets of model rules were issued, and I think very much to the advantage of the different societies, judging by the thanks we have received for having prepared them from the four different classes of societies which may be approved. Something like 3,000 societies have up to the present signified their intention to apply for approval, and something like 400 have formally applied for approval and are now waiting for our consent. It may interest Members to know that the list includes many of the great friendly societies and trades unions. I wish the smaller societies were showing as much celerity as these larger ones, and I appeal again to Members of this House, and anyone who cares to listen to my remarks outside, to do all they can to persuade the small societies to go forward in this matter.

I cannot give accurately that figure at the present moment. Many societies which have applied for approval must yet deposit their rules, but we have the Manchester Unity with nearly 900,000 members, the Foresters with 600,000 members, the Rechabites with 530,000 members, the National Deposit with 200,000 members, the Sons of Temperance, the Shepherds, the Order of Druids, and the Rational Association Friendly Society making about an aggregate of 3,000,000 present members of friendly societies. Among trade unions we have received applications for approval and for rules from the General Federation of Trade Unions, which is estimated to include some 800,000 members, and also from various other trade unions, such as the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants, the Seamen's and Firemen's Union, making about 1,500,000 potential insured persons among the trade unions. Some of these are also included among the members of friendly societies.

I understand that most of the collecting and industrial friendly societies propose to work in the form of an amalgamated association, and they have submitted or are submitting their rules. I cannot state how many insured members they represent, because they cannot tell themselves. Up to the present they have confined themselves to death benefit, and have not yet the sickness benefit. No one knows how many of these people who are at present insured in a friendly society, or being insured in these societies for death benefits, would insure for sick benefits in these societies or in some of their sections when they are organised as approved societies. I think hon. Gentlemen will learn from what I have said that whatever may determine Members in their demand for delay in the operation of the Bill, no criticism can rest upon the Insurance Commissioners in the work they have done. I would once more emphasise the fact that the great bulk of the criticisms which have been advanced as to the shortness of the time which is now available really refer to a period not of three months, but of nine months—not to the time when the contribution will be taken, but to the time when the full distribution of benefits will be in operation. No one in this Debate or in last Wednesday's Debate, so far as I have been able to see, has ever presented any case or reason why the benefits should be delayed for another six months. That would mean a delay of nearly two years from the time of the bringing in of the Act to the first benefit, and would mean a delay of eighteen months from the time of the passing of the Act to the giving of benefits under the Act. During that time the friendly societies would be compelled to give benefits to their members out of their own pocket, and the strain might be more than we have a right to demand. I can assure hon. Members that I am speaking in this matter for the great bulk of those friendly societies, who are now so heartily and willingly throwing all their forces into co-operation with the Commissioners in the working of the Act, when I say that nothing would cause them greater dissatisfaction than the carrying of the Motion which is now before the House.

I should like to thank the hon. Gentleman for the very clear way in which he has dealt with the various problems submitted to his notice. I feel I am in a somewhat difficult position, because I have been a member of this Advisory Committee, and he has this afternoon been good enough to lavish upon me such an amount of undeserved praise that I am afraid that he would regard it as somewhat unkind if I were to reciprocate with anything in the nature of severe criticism. I have no intention of doing so, and I hope the House will not consider that I am estopped by my position in offering a few criticisms upon the Insurance Commissioners. The hon. Gentleman was perfectly right when almost in his concluding sentence he said, as regards this particular Motion, whatever view some of us might take with regard to the final sentence of the Motion, it is a little difficult, and possibly a little unfair, to blame the Insurance Commissioners for the work which it is stated they have failed to do since the time the Act was passed. I am entirely in accord with the hon. Gentleman there, although I am bound to say I am going to vote for the Resolution now before the House. I am. strongly of the opinion that in the interest of the small societies, whom the hon. Gentleman has asked me to represent on the Advisory Committee, it is unfair to bring the Act into operation at so early a date as the 13th July.

The Commissioners are faced with two embarrassments. One is the Act itself which, with all their ingenuity and hard work which I know they are putting into the administration of it, they must find it extremely difficult to interpret and administer; and, secondly, the other embarrassment is the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. If only the Chancellor of the Exchequer could keep off public platforms for the next twelve months, I believe the task of the Insurance Commissioners would be at least ten times easier than it is to-day. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer visited the London Opera House at the time when some of us were doing our utmost to endeavour to cooperate with those of different views to ourselves in making this Act a success, and when he first of all denounced the medical profession in the most abusive language and proceeded to point out that the organisation of societies in the rural districts would be the means of obtaining for the rural workers what I think the right hon. Gentleman described as an emancipation from their present servitude, or words to that effect, surely everyone must realise that that was indicating, as regards the rural districts-at any rate, that these organisations were intended to be political organisations, and were intended to be used against those whom, rightly or wrongly, that particular class regarded as their best friends in the past. This speech alone has rendered it extremely difficult, in country districts at any rate, to co-operate with a view to getting from the agricultural labourers the best possible value for what we have always regarded as a somewhat excessive amount which they will have to pay.

The hon. Gentleman has told us that all occupations have received equal treatment as regards the Advisory Committee. I do not consider that the unorganised workers of the country, and particularly those who are interested in the small societies, have received anything like sufficient representation on the Advisory Committee. The hon. Member for the Gorton Division of Lancashire (Mr. Hodge), speaking from the Labour benches the other day, pointed out that one of the organised industries of the country was very poorly and inefficiently represented upon that Committee, and he referred to those who are engaged in the steel works, and the tinplate workers in South Wales. I am interested in those industries, and I can confirm what the hon. Gentleman said, that the men engaged in those industries, who form a very large proportion, and an increasing proportion, of the working population of this country, are wholly unrepresented on the Advisory Committee, and are not receiving fair treatment so far as their interests are concerned. Surely domestic servants—if you are to ascertain what is in their best interests under this Act, and particularly what steps they will desire to take under Section 13—are persons who ought to be properly represented upon the Advisory Committee. I think I am right in saying that domestic servants, as such, are not represented on the Advisory Committee at the present time. I understand from the President of the Local Government Board that, according to a recent Census, domestic servants form the largest body of workers in this country, and, if that is so, surely they ought to receive some representation upon the Advisory Committee.

However that may be, the hon. Gentleman told us he has consulted certain ladies as to what is in the best interests of the domestic servants. If there are persons representing the domestic servants on the Advisory Committee, surely they are best able to give the advice which the hon. Gentleman is prepared to receive in regard to this matter. There is another body of persons to which I want to call the sympathetic attention of the House, and it is those engaged either as hospital or district nurses. The Queen Victoria Jubilee Institute of Nurses, which I think represents the higher branches of the nursing profession in this country, asked the hon. Gentleman and the Commissioners about two months ago to receive a deputation from their body. I would ask the hon. Member if he could make it convenient to arrange that that deputation should be received at an early date. These persons, at any rate, whatever may be the case with the domestic servants, do require to submit some scheme under Section 13 which will enable them to get some different benefits to those which are provided for the ordinary workers in this country. They undoubtedly are persons, if they join separate approved societies, who are in many cases provided for by those who employ them in ordinary sickness, but who do require different benefits so far as disablement is concerned, and also in respect of the provision of something like a superannuation fund at a somewhat early age to meet their particularly difficult case, owing to their breaking down comparatively early in life as a result of their nursing labours.

The hon. Gentleman says that the postponement of the Act will not make any difference as regards the benefits which the various workers will receive, and he pointed out that there are something like 3,000,000 persons—I congratulate him upon the number—connected with the various friendly societies who have already indicated through their societies that they intend to become employed contributors and members of approved societies. We are told that the total number of workers who will come under the Act is not 4,500,000, but something like 15,000,000, and that the societies which have indicated their intention of becoming approved societies are those which are already organised as friendly societies. The persons who require consideration as regards the time at which this Act will come into operation are those who are not members of any organised friendly societies or benefit societies, but person who, if the Act is hurried in its operation, will undoubtedly drift rapidly into the position of deposit contributors. I ventured during the Debates on this Bill to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that something like one-fifth of the total number of persons who would come under the provisions of this Act would be Post Office contributors, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer—I am not sure that he actually offered to bet on the spot—asked me to remind him within two years after the Act came into operation of the somewhat rash prophecy I have made, which would be refuted in the event. I am prepared to raise that one-fifth to something like one-third after what I have seen in the country districts, and I believe that if this Act is brought hastily into operation something like from one-third to one-half will at the outset become, faute de mieux, Post Office contributors.

What is going to happen to all those persons who will be compelled to become employed contributors, and who on the 13th July will commence to pay the premiums demanded under the Act? Is it not the fact that the Commissioners contemplate that a very large proportion, and possibly more than one-half of the workers of the country will, on the 13th July find themselves in the unfortunate position of Post Office contributors. The hon. Gentleman suggested that sufficient is not being done in the direction of organising the members of the small societies. In the nature of things the hon. Gentleman cannot expect the small societies in scattered rural districts to move as fast as the large societies to which he has referred. These men have not the same opportunity of reading newspapers or speeches made in this House, or even of being brought together to discuss these matters with those who are most cognisant with the provisions of this Act. When the hon. Member tells me that the lecturers are about to conclude their educative work, in all seriousness I ask—

I said they would turn their special attention to the agricultural districts and not confine themselves to members of friendly societies and trade unions.

7.0 p.m.

I was referring to another statement, in which the hon. Member said the educative work for which the lecturers are responsible was about to give way to the administrative work of the Commissioners. I do not press the point, but I should like to suggest to him that in at least nine villages out of every ten throughout the country no lecturer has yet been instructing the agricul- tural labourer as to the best course they should take under the Act. As regards the small societies, I think the hon. Member for Norwich made an unfortunate statement, which I rather hoped the hon. Gentleman would correct. He deprecated the continuance of the small societies upon the footing that they were uneconomic and unsound. I think it ought to be made perfectly clear in this House, as well as outside the House, through the medium of the lecturers, that no society, however small or however poor, is disqualified, not merely from becoming an approved society under the Act, but from being rendered perfectly solvent and stable as the result of becoming an approved society under the Act. Where you have got efficient management—and as regards many of these small and unregistered societies there is efficient management—and where you have got a particular society with the life and all the vitality of the village concentrated in those who manage the society, not only would it be to the detriment of the village that such society should cease to exist, but you have, in fact, perfectly capable men to carry on that society as a sound society under the Act as long as they are approved and not discouraged because either they have too few members or because they have a small reserve fund as representing the existing members. I hope the hon. Gentleman does not approve of the suggestion of the hon. Member for Norwich, who indicated that small societies should not be encouraged because it has been found in the past under a totally different system that they are economically unsound. It is rather sad to see as the first result of the passing of this great health insurance measure that these small societies are very largely winding up their affairs and distributing their funds, thus indicating that the first effect of the Act is to discourage thrift. I hope that a greater effort than has hitherto been made will be made by the Insurance Commissioners—and there are plenty of persons in the counties who are quite prepared to co-operate with them—to prevent these small societies ceasing to exist.

I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he can help us a little more than he has hitherto been able to do to organise these small societies in the counties into county or other associations under Section 39. There is one difficulty with which we are faced in a good many counties, and that is the difficulty of interpreting Sub-section (2) of Section 39 The question has more than once been raised in this House as to whether a society with more than 5,000 members can be either associated or grouped with societies of less than 5,000 members without the latter losing their self-government or being merged into the larger society. There is an effort being made on the part of a good many larger societies in the southern counties to absorb the small societies upon the footing that they are unable or unlikely to exist as separate entities, and that it is impossible for them to associate, as they would otherwise like to do, in a county association with the small societies. I know there was some question as to what was the exact legal interpretation of that Sub-section, but the time has come when the point ought to be cleared up, because it is utterly impossible to go forward in many counties with the work of associating or grouping these small societies until it has been made perfectly clear whether they can or can not come in with societies of over five thousand and retain their self-government and independence. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has made up his mind upon the subject or not, but I would ask him to do so at the earliest possible moment, so that we may get forward with the grouping of these societies where the larger societies exist.

The hon. Gentleman has told us during the last few days that an attempt is being made to collect some information with regard to the unregistered societies throughout the country. These unregistered societies are very numerous, and many of them are very well managed; but it is wholly impossible, except at considerable expense on the part of voluntary workers in the various counties, to find out what is the number of the unregistered societies in a county, and what are their names, and where they exist. The hon. Gentleman said the other day that ministers of religion were being communicated with. I should like to ask him whether he means that every village priest throughout the country is receiving an interrogatory as to whether a village society exists in his village. If that is so, I am inclined to think the hon. Gentleman has taken on a very big task indeed. On the other hand, if the hon. Gentleman is prepared to receive it either through the school attendance officer or through the superintendent of police in the various districts throughout the country, I believe he will obtain just as reliable information in a far shorter time than he will by con- suiting every individual minister of religion in the country. At any rate, this is information which we require in the counties before we can decide as to whether these societies should or should not be grouped together in county associations. I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman therefore to endeavour to obtain this information at the earliest possible moment.

I want to say one further word with regard to the nurses. There are in more than half the counties of England, county nursing associations, and those county nursing associations have either equipped or are seeking to equip every single village or group of villages with a competent district nurse to attend at any rate midwifery cases, and some of them other cases or cases brought to their notice by the Care Committees of the Eudcation Authorities. Here you have indeed voluntary organisations which are prepared to do an immense amount of work under the Insurance Act if they are allowed to do so. Under Section 21 of the Act, approved societies and Insurance Committees may make grants to nursing associations, and the societies under that Section may actually appoint nurses. These associations are composed of certified nurses only, duly qualified to carry out a good part of the work which will come under the head of "maternity benefits." It the societies are left to themselves, some of the small societies, at any rate, may be tempted to appoint unqualified persons, and it must be in the true interests of economy and efficiency for certified mid-wives and other certified nurses to receive appointments by the approved societies. That being so, surely the lecturers or the Commissioners might be asked to point out to the societies that this is one of their powers, and that they ought to exercise the power in the best interests of the persons who will receive benefits under the Act. In addition to that, the Commissioners are going to appoint one-fifth of the whole of the Insurance Committee in the various administrative areas, and two of those appointees at least must be women. May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he will bear in mind the special claim which the members of these county .nursing associations will have upon the Commissioners when these appointments are to be made. These are matters which the nurses, through their representatives in London, would like to have brought before the Commissioners if they had been given the opportunity of doing so.

We know it is a very good policy in any case where there is a danger of fire to pay a comparatively small sum for the provision of a fire brigade, rather than wait until the fire breaks out and incur a very much more serious loss than would be involved by the provision of such a brigade. Surely, you have got a parallel case in the existence of these district nurses organised by county associations, which are equipping, or are prepared to equip, every single village in the country. I honestly believe it will conduce to true economy if every encouragement can be given to the existing organisations of these district nurses. I should like to ask whether the hon. Gentleman has yet decided what is the meaning of Section 18, Sub-section (1), of the Act. In connection with the maternity benefit there is a provision to the effect that in the case of the mother of an infant selecting a midwife and a duly qualified medical practitioner is subsequently summoned in pursuance of the rules made under the Midwife's Act, 1902, a prescribed fee shall be recoverable as part of the maternity benefit. I have very carefully studied both the Midwife's Act and the fees paid under the Act, and I have consulted several gentlemen of some legal knowledge, and I have come to the conclusion myself that the latter part of that Section has no meaning whatever; but, as I have been asked by the nursing associations whether any meaning can be put upon it, I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he can find out some solution of that conundrum.

In Section 14 there is a provision that persons who are employed by societies to visit employed contributors shall, as regards women, be of the female sex. I should like to ask whether any provision has yet been made, or whether any suggestion has yet been thrown out to the various societies, as to how these women are to be chosen. Of course, in the past, under the voluntary insurance system of friendly societies, the bulk of the members being male, the visitors were males and were members of, or easily appointed by, the societies. How are the societies going to find women visitors to attend maternity cases in the homes of male employed contributors. It seems to me, there, too, the, district nurses might come in extremely useful if the Commissioners were prepared to recommend their services. There is still a question which has not yet been settled, as to whether sons of small farmers who, both in South Wales and also in the North of England, are employed by their fathers to do work upon the farms, are to come under the provisions of the Act or not. Whether, in fact, they are exempted, under Section 2 I think it is, or whether they are accepted under the second part of the First Schedule. These people, as a rule, are in the position of apprentices on a farm, and they are learning the business of farming, as a rule, with a view to eventually taking farms of their own. Their fathers say, and with some reason, they ought not to be asked to make contributions towards their insurance. They may or may not receive a small sum by way of remuneration for the work they are doing, and, accepting the terms of Section 2, they undoubtedly are persons who are mainly supported by their parents, and are not in the position of ordinary employed persons.

A good many persons in various parts of the country are anxious to have this point cleared up, and I think it is one upon which we are entitled to have some definite statement from the Commissioners. In conclusion, I would point out that Section 78 does afford to the Commissioners a means of immensely improving this Act if they are prepared to do so through its means. I entirely deprecate, as a matter of principle, altering an Act of Parliament by Departmental Regulations; but, in spite of that, I think you have here a very exceptional case, and if the Government are not prepared to give us opportunities of amending the Act, I think the least that they could do, where cases of injustice are likely to arise under the Act, is to exercise their very large powers under Section 78 and alter the Act themselves. Very reluctantly I have come to this opinion, because I believe it to be wholly unconstitutional; but rather than allow a large number of poor workers in this country to suffer owing to the insufficiency of an Act, which was rushed through this House at undue speed and without sufficient consideration, I hope the Commissioners will take full advantage of this far-reaching Section, and so remove some of the many difficulties which will undoubtedly face them under a very unworkable Act.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 204; Noes, 145.

Division No. 74.]

AYES.

[7.20 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

Acland, Francis Dyke

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

Needham, Christopher T.

Agnew, Sir George William

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Neilson, Francis

Alden, Percy

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds West)

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire)

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Norman, Sir Henry

Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles Peter (Stroud)

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

O'Grady, James

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Higham, John Sharp

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Hinds, John

Parker, James (Halifax)

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Hodge, John

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Hogge, James Myles

Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Pointer, Joseph

Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George)

Holt, Richard Durning

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bentham, G. J.

Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Bethell, Sir J. H.

Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

Pringle, William M. R.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Radford, George Heynes

Booth, Frederick Handel

Hudson, Walter

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Bowerman, C. W.

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

Reddy, Michael

Brunner, John F. L.

John, Edward Thomas

Rendali, Athelstan

Bryce, J. Annan

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Jones, H. Hadyn (Merioneth)

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Jones, W. S. Glyn-(T. H'mts, Stepney)

Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Jowett, Frederick William

Roch, Walter F.

Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

Joyce, Michael

Roche, Augustine (Louth)

Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood)

Keating, Matthew

Roe, Sir Thomas

Chancellor, Henry George

Kellaway, Frederick George

Rowntree, Arnold

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Clough, William

Kilbride, Denis

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Clynes, John R.

King, Joseph

Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lamb, Ernest Henry

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Cowan, W. H.

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Shortt, Edward

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Lansbury, George

Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

Crooks, William

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'h)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Leach, Charles

Snowden, Philip

Davies, E. William (Eifion)

Levy, Sir Maurice

Splcer, Sir Albert

Dawes, J. A.

Lewis, John Herbert

Sutherland, John E.

Delany, William

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Tennant, Harold John

Donelan, Captain A.

Maclean, Donald

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Doris, William

Macnamara, Rt. Hon, Dr. T. J.

Thomas, J. H. (Derby)

Duffy, William J.

Macpherson, James Ian

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

M'Callum, John M.

Toulmin, Sir George

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

M'Curdy, Charles Albert

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.)

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Verney, Sir Harry

Ellbank, Rt. Hon. Master of

M'Laren, Hon F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Elverston, Sir Harold

M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

Wardle, George J.

Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

Manfield, Harry

Waring, Walter

Essex, Richard Walter

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

Esslemont, George Birnie

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Falconer, James

Masterman, C. F. G.

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

Meagher, Michael

Watt, Henry A.

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

France, Gerald Ashburner

Menzies, Sir Walter

Whitehouse, John Howard

Gelder, Sir William Alfred

Middlebrook, William

Whyte, A. F.

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

Millar, James Duncan

Wilkie, Alexander

Gill, Alfred Henry

Moltena, Percy Alport

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

Gladstone, W. G. C.

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Glanville, Harold James

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

Goldstone, Frank

Mooney, John J.

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

Worrell, Philip

Young, William (Perth, East)

Greig, Colonel James William

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)

Munro, Robert

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R, C.

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Barlow, Montague (Salford, S.)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Barnston, H.

Bull, Sir William James

Archer-Shee, Major M.

Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.)

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Ashley, Wilfrid W.

Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Butcher, John George

Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Campion, W. R.

Baird, J. L.

Benn, Arhur Shirley (Plymouth)

Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

Cassel, Felix

Balcarres, Lord

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Cator, John

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Bigland, Alfred

Cautley, Henry Strother

Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

Boyton, James

Cave, George

Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Chaioner, Col. R. G. W.

Ingleby, Holcombe

Royds, Edmund

Cooper, Richard Ashmole

Joynson-Hicks, William

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Courthope, George Loyd

Kerry, Earl of

Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Keswick, Henry

Sanders, Robert Arthur

Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Sanderson, Lancelot

Craik, Sir Henry

Knight, Capt. E. A.

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Croft, H. P.

Kyffin-Taylor, G.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Larmor, Sir J.

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Denniss, E. R. B.

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Spear, Sir John Ward

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Stanier, Beville

Eyres-Monseil, Bolton M.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

Faber, George D. (Clapham)

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Steel-Maitland, A. D.

Falle, Bertram Gedfray

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)

Fell, Arthur

Lyttelton, Hon. J. G. (Droitwich)

Swift, Rigby

Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

Mackinder, Halford J.

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Fletcher, John Samuel

Macmaster, Donald

Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

Forster, Henry William

Magnus, Sir Philip

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Gardner, Ernest

Malcolm, Ian

Thynne, Lord Alexander

Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

Touche, George Alexander

Gilmour, Captain John

Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K.

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Valentia, Viscount

Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

Mount, William Arthur

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Goulding, E. A.

Newman, John R. P.

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Grant, J. A.

Newton, Harry Kottingham

White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

Greene, Walter Raymond

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Wolmer, Viscount

Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

Nield, Herbert

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Hambro, Angus Valdemar

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

Paget, Almeric Hugh

Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

Harris, Henry Percy

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Parkes, Ebenezer

Yate, Col. C. E.

Helmsley, Viscount

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Yerburgh, Robert

Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

Younger, Sir George

Herbert, Hon. A, (Somerset, S.)

Pretyman, Ernest George

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Quilter, Sir W. E. C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Worthington-Evans and Marquess of Tullibardine

Hill, Sir Clement L

Rees, Sir J. D.

Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Rolieston, Sir John

Division No. 75.]

AYES.

[7.30 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Craig, Herbert James (Tynemouth)

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Baslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Agnew, Sir George William

Crooks, William

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

Alden, Percy

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Hayden, John Patrick

Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

Davies, Ellis William (Elfion)

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.)

Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

Dawes, James Arthur

Higham, John Sharp

Baker, H. T. (Accrington)

Delany, William

Hinds, John

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

Balfour, sir Robert (Lanark)

Donelan, Captain A.

Hodge, John

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Doris, William

Hogge, James Myles

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Duffy, William J.

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Holt, Richard Durning

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.)

Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Bentham, G. J.

Elverston, Sir Harold

Hudson, Walter

Bethell, Sir John Henry

Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary)

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Essex, Richard Walter

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

Booth, Frederick Handel

Esslemont, George Birnie

John, Edward Thomas

Bowerman, C. W.

Falconer, James

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)

Ffrench, Peter

Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)

Brunner, John F. L.

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Bryce, J. Annan

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

France, Gerald Ashburner

Jones, W. S. Glyn-(T. H'mts, Stepney)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Gelder, Sir William Alfred

Jowett, Frederick William

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Joyce, Michael

Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

Gill, A. H.

Keating, Matthew

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Gladstone, W. G, C.

Kellaway, Frederick George

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Glanville, Harold James

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

Goldstone, Frank

Kilbride, Denis

Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

King, Joseph

Chancellor, Henry George

Greig, Col. James William

Lamb, Ernest Henry

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Guest. Hon Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Clough, William

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Lansbury George

Clynes, John R

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rl'nd, Cockerm'th)

Cowen, W. H.

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Leach, Charles

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 205; Noes, 147.

Levy, Sir Maurice

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

Lewis John Herbert

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Snowden, Philip

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Palmer, Godfrey Hark

Spicer, Sir Albert

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Sutherland, John E.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon, Dr. T. J.

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Macpherson, James Ian

Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

M'Callum, John M.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

Tennant, Harold John

M'Curdy, Charles Albert

Pointer, Joseph

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Power, Patrick Joseph

Thomas, James Henry (Derby)

M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

Pringle, William M. R.

Toulmin, Sir George

Manfield, Harry

Radfofd, George Heynes

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Verney, Sir Henry

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Masterman, C F. G.

Reddy, Michael

Wardle, George J.

Meagher, Michael

Rendall, Athelstan

Waring, Walter

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

Menzies, Sir Walter

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Middlebrook, William

Roberts, Sir J. (Denbighs)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Millar, James Duncan

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Watt, Henry A.

Molteno, Percy Alport

Robertson, John Hi. (Tyneside)

White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Roche, Augustine (Louth)

Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

Mooney, John J.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Wilkie, Alexander

Morreli, Philip

Rewntree, Arnold

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Samuel, Rt. Hon. K. L. (Cleveland)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Munro, R.

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

Scott, A. M'Callum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Young, William (Perth, East)

Needham, Christopher P.

Shortt, Edward

Neilson, Francis

Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

Norman, Sir Henry

NOES

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

Paget, Almeric Hugh

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Gilmour, Captain J.

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Archer-Shee, Major Martin

Glazebrook, Captain Philip K.

Parkes, Ebenezer

Ashley, W. W.

Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

Baird, John Lawrence

Grant, J. A.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

Greene, W. R.

Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

Balcarres, Lord

Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S.Edmunds)

Rees, Sir J. D.

Baldwin, Stanley

Hambro, Angus Valdemar

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington)

Rolleston, Sir John

Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Barnston, Harry

Harris, Henry Percy

Royds, Edmund

Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Helmsley, Viscount

Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

Sanders, Robert Arthur

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

Sanderson, Lancelot

Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Bigland, Alfred

Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Boyton, James

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Spear, Sir John Ward

Bridgeman, William Clive

Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis

Starrier, Bevilie

Bull, Sir William James

Ingleby, Holcombe

Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Joynson-Hicks, William

Steel-Maitland, A. D.

Butcher. John George

Kerry, Earl of

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

Campion, W. R.

Keswick, Henry

Swift, Rigby

Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

Cassel, Felix

Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Cater, John

Kyffin-Taylor, G

Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)

Cautley, Henry Strotber

Larmor, Sir J.

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Cave, George

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Thynne, Lord Alexander

Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Touche, George Alexander

Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Cooper, Richard Ashmole

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Valentia, Viscount

Courthope, George Loyd

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh

White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

Craik, Sir Henry

Mackinder, Halford J.

Wolmer, Viscount

Croft, Henry Page

Macmaster, Donald

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Malcolm, Ian

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Denniss, E. R. B.

Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

Worthington-Evans, L.

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

Morrison-Bell, Cant. E. F. (Ashburton)

Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

Faber, George D. (Clapham)

Mount, William Arthur

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Falle, Bertram Godfray

Newman, John R. P.

Yate, Col. C. E.

Fell, Arthur

Newton, Harry Kottingham

Yerburgh, Robert

Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Younger, Sir George

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hayes

Nield, Herbert

Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

Q'Grady, James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir P. Magnus and Marquess of Tullibardine.

Forster, Henry William

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Gardner, Ernest

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

claimed That the Main Question be now put."

Main Question put accordingly, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

The Main Question has been claimed.

The House divided: Ayes, 179; Noes, 91.

Division No. 76.]

AYES.

[7.40 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)

Neilson, Francis

Acland, Francis Dyke

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

Alden, Percy

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Norman, Sir Henry

Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

O'Grady, James

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Hayden, John Patrick

Parker, James (Halifax)

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Higham, John Sharp

Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George)

Hinds, John

Pointer, Joseph

Bentham, G. J.

Hodge, John

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bethell, Sir John Henry

Hogge, James Myles

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Pringle, William M. R.

Booth, Frederick Handel

Holt, Richard Durning

Radford, G. H.

Bowerman, C. W.

Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich)

Raffan, Peter William

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Reddy, M.

Brunner, John F. L.

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Rendall, Athelstan

Bryce, John Annan

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

John, Edward Thomas

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Roche, Augustine (Louth)

Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

Jowett, F. W.

Roe, Sir Thomas

Chancellor, H. G.

Joyce, Michael

Rowntree, Arnold

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Keating, Matthew

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Clough, William

Kellaway, Frederick George

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Clynes, John R.

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Kilbride, Denis

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

King, J.

Shortt, Edward

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Lamb, Ernest Henry

Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe)

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Lansbury, George

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

Dawes, J. A.

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

Snowden, Philip

Delany, William

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Leach, Charles

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Donelan, Captain A.

Levy, Sir Maurice

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Doris, W.

Lewis, John Herbert

Tennant, Harold John

Duffy, William J.

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Thomas, James Henry (Derby)

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

Macpherson, James Ian

Toulmin, Sir George

Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Elverston, Sir Harold

M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

Verney, Sir Harry

Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

Manfield, Harry

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Essex, Richard Walter

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Wardle, G. J.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

Falconer, J.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Watt, Henry A.

Ffrench, Peter

Meagher, Michael

White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Menzies, Sir Walter

Wilkie, Alexander

France, G. A.

Middlebrook, William

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

Gelder, Sir William Alfred

Millar, James Duncan

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Molteno, Percy Alport

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

Gill, Alfred Henry

Money, L. G. Chiozza

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Gladstone, W. G. C.

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Young, William (Perth, East)

Glanville, Harold James

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Goldstone, Frank

Munro, Robert

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

Greig, Col. J. W.

Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.

Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

Needham, Christopher T.

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Cave, George

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

Archer-Shee, Major M.

Bigland, Alfred

Cooper, Richard Ashmole

Ashley, W. w.

Bridgeman, William Clive

Courthope, George Loyd

Baird, J. L.

Bull, Sir William James

Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

Balcarres, Lord

Butcher, John George

Craik, Sir Henry

Baldwin, Stanley

Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

Croft, Henry Page

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Cassel, Felix

Denniss, E. R. B.

Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott

Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford

Spear, Sir John

Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootie)

Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

Faber, George D. (Clapham)

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)

Fell, Arthur

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.)

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Finlay, Rt. Hon. sir Robert

Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

Mackinder, Halford J.

Thynne, Lord A.

Fletcher, John Samuel

Macmaster, Donald

Touche, George Alexander

Forster, Henry William

Magnus, Sir Philip

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Gardner, Ernest

Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

Tullibardine, Marquess of

Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

Newman, John R. P.

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Cordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

Newton, Harry Kottingham

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Goulding, E. A.

Parkes, Ebenezer

White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

Grant, James Augustus

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Wolmer, Viscount

Greene, Walter Raymond

Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

Pretyman, Ernest George

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

Worthington-Evans, L.

Harris, Henry Percy

Rees, Sir J. D.

Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire)

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Yerburgh, Robert

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

Hohler, G. F.

Sanders, Robert A.

Hume-Williams, W. E.

Sanderson, Lancelot

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F. Banbury and Mr. Stanier.

Joynson-Hicks, William

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Keswick, Henry

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Supply

Civil Services Estimates, 1912–13

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. MACLEAN in the chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £26,570, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1913, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Health Insurance Joint Committee."—NOTE.—£11,000 has been voted on account.

Committee report Progress; to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).

Government of India Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]

Clause 1.—( Powers of Governor of Fort William in Bengal. )

(1) It is hereby declared that the Governor and Governor in Council of the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal shall, within that Presidency as so delimited as aforesaid, have all the rights, duties, functions, and immunities which the Governors and Governors in Council of the Presidencies of Fort St. George and Bombay respectively possess, and all enactments relating to the Governors of those Presidencies and the Councils (whether for executive or legislative purposes) thereof and the members of those Councils shall apply accordingly to the Governor of the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal, and his "Council and the members of that Council: Provided that—

(a) if the Governor-General in Council reserves to himself any powers now exerciseable by him in relation to the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal, those powers shall continue to be exerciseable by the Governor-General in Council in the like manner and to the like extent as heretofore; and

(b) it shall not be obligatory to nominate the Advocate-General of the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal or any officer acting in that capacity to be a member of the Legislative Council of the Governor of that Presidency.

(2) The power of the Governor-General in Council under Section 1 of the Indian Presidency Towns Act, 1815, to extend the limits of the town of Calcutta shall be transferred to the Governor in Council of the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal.

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I should like to remark on the great expense to the Indian Exchequer which lies behind this proposal to substitute for a Lieutenant-Governorship for Bengal a Governor in Council, which is the object of the Clause. Instead of having a Lieutenant-Governor, who gets 6,666 rupees, you substitute a Governor, who will have 10,000 rupees, you add to him two colonels with 5,000 rupees, you scatter about him private secretaries, military secretaries, aides-de-camp, and other expensive officials.

Is it not the fact that Clause 1 does not appoint a Governor of Bengal in substitution for the Lieutenant-Governor, does not put a new charge on the revenue of India, and is not concerned with any plans which are more or less extravagant? That being so, are the remarks of the hon. Member in order?

They do not appear to me to be in order so far as the hon. Member has gone. He must make some other remarks to put himself in order.

If the Clause does not in fact substitute a Governor in Council, for a Lieutenant-Governor, it will be interesting to know what is its effect.

I thought I made that clear the other day. The Governor of Bengal has been appointed not by Act of Parliament at all, but by Proclamation. This merely gives him the same relation to the Council in the matter of presiding over it, casting votes, and so forth, as are enjoyed by the Governors of Madras and Bombay over the similar bodies in their Presidencies.

I submit that that leads to increased expenditure. If this is not necessary, and if the case is as the hon. Gentleman says, why does the Government bring in this Bill? I cannot understand it. If this Bill does provide for the substitution it provides for greatly increased cost. If it does hot provide for the substitution, I do not quite see what it is for.

I rather agree with my hon. Friend who, we all must admit, has had very great experience in these matters. In order not to embarrass the Government we allowed them to get the Second Beading in a very short time and without in any way treating it as a controversial matter. In return, the least the Government can do is to treat our remarks as though they were worthy of some consideration. My hon. Friend has passed a very large period of his life in India, and has performed his duties in a most creditable manner, and he tells us that the effect of the Clause would be to increase the expenditure. The hon. Gentleman opposite says it will not increase the expenditure, because the Governor has already been appointed. The appointment of the Governor, if it has already been done, has increased the expenditure, and this Clause, which is contingent on the appointment of the Governor, must still further increase the expenditure. We can divide on each Clause: a Division takes eight minutes, and there are twenty-two minutes left, and we can stop the Bill unless we are treated—

The relevance is that the hon. Gentleman, instead of answering my hon. Friend, rather tried to insinuate that he was endeavouring to make remarks upon the Bill which were not in order and were not brought forward in a proper spirit. That is not so, and that is why I say, if he persists in that behaviour, it might be necessary for us to take action. It seems to me that this Clause must necessarily increase the expenses of the Governor of this province. Paragraph ( b ) of the Clause says—

"it shall not be obligatory to nominate the Advocate-General of the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal or any officer acting in that capacity to be a member of the Legislative Council of the Governor of that Presidency."

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will explain why it should not be obligatory. If it is a proper thing to have the Advocate-General of the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal a member of the Legislative Council, why is it not obligatory, and if it is not a good thing, why give permission to make him a member of the Legislative Council?

Thad no intention of being discourteous to the hon. Gentleman opposite. The Governor and the Legislative Council have been appointed. There is power to do that by Proclamation, and it is done without the necessity of coming to Parliament at all. The point of this Clause is to give to the Governor in his relations to the Council the same powers that the Governors of Madras and Bombay have in relation to their Councils, and that is all. If the hon. Member wants an. example, Section 28 of the Councils Acts of 1861 gives the Governors of the Presidency of Fort George in Bombay power to-make rules for the conduct of business. The Governor of Bengal, after this Clause has become law, would have the same powers, and will make rules for the conduct of business in his Council. These are all the things with which Clause 1 is concerned. With regard to the Advocate-General, he is a Law Officer both to the Governor of Bengal and to the Governor-General. It clearly is not advisable that he should serve on both Legislative Councils, but it might be desirable to appoint him to the Governor-General's Council; and we are asking the House to leave to the Viceroy the power of deciding whether he shall be appointed to the Governor-General's Council or to the Governor of Bengal's Council. That is why it is not obligatory. It is to give a wide discretion in the matter of the Law Officers.

I am quite satisfied as regards the point about the Advocate-General. I should like to ask the Under-Secretary how the Governor of Bengal in Council can perform the functions which are performed by the Governor of Fort St. George in Bombay without incurring the extra expense which is attendant upon the exercise of those functions. It simply means that the functions should be performed without increased expense. It may be that the Clause is not satisfactorily drafted in that respect, but it does, as a matter of fact, impose an extra cost upon the revenues of India.; and I am much astonished to find hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, who are continually suggesting that the Indian is oppressed by the English in India, so indifferent to changes which must impose upon them extra taxation.

If you intend to oppose this new arrangement made by Proclamation, we will help you.

I do not quite follow the hon. Gentleman. I trust I shall be in order in commenting upon the reason given by the Viceroy for the change he has made. He states:—

"The concession of a full Governorship of Bengal will have a good effect upon English public opinion."

The Proclamation is not sufficient to give the Governor of Bengal his full and proper status as a Governor. It is necessary that in addition to that Proclamation there should be a Bill passed by this House. I want to know what will be the position of the Governor of Bengal, who has been appointed by Proclamation, if this Bill never reaches the Statute Book. Would he be legally appointed Governor with all the necessary powers to carry out the duties and functions of a Governor?

One of the reasons why the Government are anxious to get the Bill through is that he would not be Governor of Bombay and Madras, though he would be able to exercise the functions of the Governor of Bengal. He could do every act that the Governor performs, and he could work with his executive council, but it would be extremely difficult for him to meet his Legislative Council. Therefore legislation in Bengal would be at a standstill until steps were taken to get over the deadlock.

8.0 p.m.

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for that explanation. I think it has brought out the fact that my hon. Friend was correct in stating that large additional expenditure must be incurred as the result of the passing of this Clause.

What are the duties, functions, and immunities possessed by the Governors of the Presidencies of Fort George and Bombay which are to be conferred upon the Governor of the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal?

It was always in the power of the Government of India to appoint the Governor of Bengal. What was not in their power was to appoint the Governor in Council. What is here proposed alters the situation and increases the cost. Similar expense is to be incurred in regard to the new province of Bihar and Orissa. Behind all this is immense expenditure which is to be met out of the taxation of India at a time when, owing to the surrender of the opium revenue, they are already inevitably to be taxed a still larger amount. I would also ask the Under-Secretary what are the immunities which the Governors in Council of Fort George and Bombay possess. When I was in India I did not know of any immunities they possessed which were not possessed by all other British subjects. There may be such, but I have no information what they are. If this Bill has been drafted in the public offices in London, as I suppose it has, I think it is the proper function of Members of this House to criticise its provisions.

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be content when I tell him that the first part of this Sub-section is copied from Section 59 of the Act of 1833.

I am aware that it is the work of the draughtsman here to frame the Bill in a way which will be intelligible. If the hon. Gentleman has any doubt of my competence to criticise the Bill, I would remind him that I have myself when in India performed similar work, and therefore no one could be better instructed on the point. I confess I have no idea what is meant by the Sub-section. The phraseology may have been suitable in 1833, but it is entirely unsuitable in 1912. I submit that the Under-Secretary—I am not blaming him in the least—does not know what it means, and it is desirable that the House of Commons should know what it means before it becomes law.

I wish to ask a question with regard to paragraph ( a ), which provides that

"if the Governor-General in Council reserves to himself any powers now exercisable by him in relation to the Presidency of Fort William in Bengal, those powers shall continue to be exercisable by the Governor-General in Council in the like manner and to the like extent as heretofore."

That may be a reasonable provision, but I wish the hon. Gentleman to tell us whether there are any particular powers which the Governor-General in Council had in view when he asked that that particular proviso should be inserted in the Bill.

The Noble Lord was not in the House on Monday when the Bill was introduced. I explained then that under the High Courts Acts of 1860 and 1911 the Governor-General has power to appoint temporary and acting judges of the High Court. The High Court will have jurisdiction over the province of Bihar and Orissa, and it is therefore desirable that the Governor-General should still have power to appoint the judges rather than the Governor of Bengal.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 2.—(Provisions as to the Province of Bihar.)

The provisions of Sub-section (1) of Section three of the Indian Councils Act, 1909 (which relate to the constitution of provincial executive councils), shall apply to the province of Bihar and Orissa in like manner as they applied to the province of the Bengal division of the Presidency of Fort William.

Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

This Clause deals with the subject entirely by reference. It consists of only five lines. Why I object very much to legislation by reference is that it is very difficult for a layman to understand what it means. In the Indian Councils Act, 1909, I find that Sub-section (1) of Section 3 is as follows:—

"It shall be lawful for the Governor-General in Council, with the approval of the Secretary of State in Council, by proclamation, to create a council in the Bengal Division of the Presidency of Fort William for the purpose of assisting the Lieutenant-Governor in the executive government of the province, and by such proclamation—

I mean the Conservative party on this side of the House. There was considerable doubt as to whether it was a wise experiment to make. I wish to know from the Under-Secretary whether the experiment has really worked successfully. I remember that the late Leader of the Opposition made a speech against the proposal. It was a very important Subsection because it altered the form of Government in India as it existed up to 1909. I think we should have an explanation of the point.

My opinion in regard to this Clause is the same as in regard to the first Clause. Here is the creation of a great many new officers entailing increased expenditure on the people of India. Hitherto provinces of this sort have been well administered, comparatively cheaply, by the chosen civil servants. It is proposed to set up a sham Parliamentary Government which is not suitable for India, and which only differs from what existed before in so far as this is far more expensive.

I wish to support the objection to legislation by reference. I think it would be somewhat unfair of me to raise that point on private Members' Bills on Friday without stating the same objection when this method of legislation appears in a Government measure. I have the strongest antipathy to legislation of this kind. I quote again the authority of the Lord Chancellor in another place when he complimented the hon. Member for Stockton for raising the point in a very definite way in Committee, and made what was practically an appeal to this House not to indulge in legislation by reference. I am in hearty sympathy with the Bill for the Government of India, but I am not prepared to pass a Clause of this kind which embodies the fundamental error of legislation by reference. I shall object on every possible occasion to Clauses of this kind in Bills brought before the House.

I think I can relieve to a certain extent the fears of the hon. Baronet.

And, it being a Quarter-past Eight of the clock, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 4.

Banks

I beg to move: "That, in the opinion of this House, the present state of the Law with regard to the right of persons, or associations of persons, to trade under the title of Bank, or similar title, is unsatisfactory, and fails to protect the community against fraud in connection with such trading, and more especially those of slender means who are induced to become depositors, or otherwise invest their savings; and this House is further of opinion that legislation is urgently required to check the possibility of fraud with regard to such undertakings."

I am sure that there is no one in whatever quarter of the House he sits, and whatever his opinion on the proposals which I foreshadow, but must have sympathy with the victims of such a catastrophe as the failure of the Charing Cross Bank. Although that was the latest, it was by no means a unique case. Looking back through the vista of years, one knows that there have been scores of such cases. Though the matter may seem of little importance to the outside public, yet to the unfortunate people who have deposited their money in these fraudulent concerns it spells absolute disaster. It is not the rich man or the capitalist who, in the majority of cases, suffers through these concerns, but it is the very persons whom one would like to protect, the most needy and very often certainly the most thrifty of the community. I have known a case myself of a woman who had been a housemaid, and married an ex-coachman. Their joint savings, amounting to something like £500, were all put in the Charing Cross Bank. That woman is now a widow, and finds herself as an elderly woman practically penniless. It may be said in the course of this discussion that if people are so foolish as to put their money into these concerns and hope to get interest at 6 per cent, or 8 per cent, they deserve to lose their money, that it is useless trying to protect them, and that they should know perfectly well that no solvent concern could possibly pay interest at these high rates. But most of us probably have known many well-to-do men, men of education, and men presumably of some financial experience, who have done some very foolish things themselves in the City. Therefore I do not think that we can very well blame those in .humbler circumstances who have not had the same opportunity of knowledge as the richer people have. These poor people see written up on a building the magic word "Bank." They see the advertisements in the paper, they see it on prospectuses, and all around them they see friends of theirs actually drawing the interest, 7, 8, or 10 per cent., interest in the majority of cases paid out of their own deposit. To my mind, the pathetic part of the whole situation is that it is the very neediest and thriftiest of the community, who have laid by money trying to make provision for themselves, who are the principal sufferers by this question.

Last year I introduced into this House a Bankers Bill. It was very favourably received by the majority of the organs of the Press, and notably by those dealing with financial and legal matters. Some of them described it as a distinct advance for the better. That Bill was systematically blocked from the Front Government Bench. I have no doubt that the view adopted by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Buxton), to whose courtesy in connection with my investigations in this matter I wish to bear testimony, was the view adopted by the minority of the Press, and probably taken by some of his financial advisers. The first criticism which they made was: "It is very difficult to define the word 'Bank.' We do not know of any such definition." But, if there is no definition of a bank at this moment, let the Government strive to make one if it is necessary that this should be done. I have no doubt that it would be difficult, but the difficulty should not be insuperable, and a difficulty of that sort only exists for a courageous Government to overcome. This is essentially a matter that must be taken up by the Government, which has behind it the whole machinery of the Board of Trade and the powerful assistance of the Law Officers of the Crown, rather than by private Members. The second criticism runs on these lines: "We are very much opposed to Government intervention in these private matters. If you bring in legislation of this sort, it will be an interference with trade and business." I should have a certain amount of sympathy with the objection to Government interference in private affairs were it not that already increasingly the Government does meddle in our private affairs from the cradle to the grave. During the last three or four decades the Government has shown no want of will in interfering with individual liberty. The State regulates hours of adult labour, forbids freedom of contract in many cases, and interferes in the relations between landlord and tenant, and yet in this matter of finance, where the wage-earner is, I think, far less competent to protect himself, the State does little or nothing to protect him.

The State actually forbids an unlicensed man to call himself a doctor, a general practitioner, a veterinary surgeon, a dentist, an apothecary, a chemist, a druggist or a solicitor. It does this not only to protect the public, but to protect those professions. Yet, incredible as it may seem, in this matter of banks any man who chooses to pay annual Licence Duty of £30 is entitled to put up a brass plate on his door and call himself a banker, and enter into business without any restriction at all, as far as I know, on his trading. He may be, and generally is, a needy financier, who takes the money entrusted to him for rash gambling or, in some cases, and there have been several of them, for his own personal use. To lessen the criticism that may be advanced against the definition of the word "bank," I have inserted in my Motion the words "bank or similar title." I am aware that last December there was passed through this House, quite at the end of the Session, an amended Moneylenders Act. It was passed by the hon. Gentleman who was then Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Board of Trade., and it does forbid moneylenders pure and simple to use the title of bank. I am very glad myself that that Act was passed, but I do not think that it touches anything but the fringe of the problem. I am not at all sure whether it would actually have touched the case of Mr. Carpenter in the Charing Cross Bank. I rejoice that that Act was passed. I do not know whether I and my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel), who was a backer of the Bill last year, and who is going to second this Motion, can lay the flattering unction to our souls that the bringing forward of that Bill had any effect in speeding up that Act.

At any rate we accept it as a step in the right direction. I do not propose as a layman to enter into legal matters very deeply, or into legal technicalities. I leave that to my hon. and learned Friend, who, perhaps, will follow, or to the Government. I would suggest that one point of the greatest importance in regard to which a provision should be inserted in any Bill that might be introduced, is that anyone receiving money on deposit from the public should, at any rate, give some guarantee of the solvency of their bank or other institution. I would go further, and I would say that no one should be allowed to set up a bank or call themselves a bank unless they have a capital of something like £500,000, because no bank, properly so called, could really be set up with a small capital, and of the £500,000 at least 25 per cent, should have been paid up. The company laws of Victoria, which I think is very much ahead of us in regard to these matters, contain a provision such as that I have described, and they have also got, amongst other important provisions, the provision that no one under any circumstances is allowed to use the title "savings banks" or "savings institutions." They limit the use of the word "bank" to companies which have subscribed capital to the amount of £200,000, of which at least £75,000 is paid up. They have some other provisions in their Act which I think we might well follow.

I may be plunging into rather controversial matters, but there is, I see, one provision laid down, that advertising the amount of nominal capital without prefixing the word "nominal" is an offence under the Act and punishable with a penalty. I believe that does not apply in this country. There is another provision that no banking company is to grant advances to directors or officials, and, if, in exceptional circumstances, it is done, then every six months a return is to be made to the Registrar-General of such advances. I believe that does not apply in this country. There is another provision which is perhaps a little bit beyond the scope of a bank pure and simple, that no person shall form a company to take, over his own business without first advertising his intention, so that the creditors may oppose the formation of such a company. There are several other provisions into which I will not enter, though I think they are well worth the attention of hon. Members. They are contained in the Blue Book Cd. 3589 on the Colonial Company Laws. I would suggest that any one receiving money on deposit from the public should publish a balance sheet certified by a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants or by a member of a Society of Accountants and two auditors. There is, I think, a law that a company must appoint an auditor, but so far as I know there is nothing at all to prevent their appointing a crossing-sweeper, or, still worse, a person who is a swindler, to be their auditor. As to the question of interference with trade or business, my Bill especially laid down, provisions applying to existing institutions. Whether the Government, in any Bill they might bring forward, should adhere to that point or not of interfering with existing businesses or institutions, is a moot point, and it is for the Government to decide.

I may mention that I have interviewed many friends of mine who are connected with the banking interests, and they all agree in saying that provision such as I have sketched out would in no way interfere with legitimate banking business. On the contrary, they think that if something of the sort could be brought in there is no institution and no individual who carries on its or his business in an honest way but would welcome such a proposal as that to which my Motion refers. In my Bill last year there was a provision that a profit and loss account should be supplied. That, I think, might well be modified. I think as long as there is a balance sheet as a guarantee of solvency we need not trouble about what the profit of the company or the individual is. I am perfectly well aware that there may be objections raised by persons who are connected with the banking interest, and similar interests with regard to this proposal; but I would impress upon the House the great urgency of this question, and if any hon. Member is in doubt as to its urgency, I beg him to read the reports of the official receivers for some years past, and also to read the evidence given at certain trials, together with the comments of the judges concerned. I am perfectly sure that if they do that they will be absolutely amazed at the revelations of fraud contained in them. If they would study cases like Feltham's Bank, which was a sort of one man show, and a great deal of the money was used personally by the man who was conducting that institution; if they would read the case connected with the National Securities Bank, a very cleverly designed title, because the word "national" induced many of its victims to think that there was some sort of guarantee in it, it would open their eyes to the urgency of passing legislation. I would specially call the attention of hon. Members to the remarks of that distinguished judge Mr. Justice Eve, a late Member of this House on the Government side, at the close of the action against the National Securities Bank. Mr. Justice Eve said:— the trial. The assets were given, I believe, by the defendant Mr. Carpenter, at £1,607,000, but when investigation was made it showed that, on the highest and most favourable computation, instead of being £1,607,000, they only amounted to £1,066,000. I believe they turned out to be very much less. The list of liabilities instead of being £1,236,000, as stated by Mr. Carpenter, amounted to no less than the huge sum of £2,500,000. As a matter of fact, the Charing Cross Bank had no large income, and for a time it used to pay a high rate of interest to its customers from money deposited by others. When the deposits began to fail, then the bank failed also, because no money was forthcoming, and the bank came to a standstill. Between 1909 and 1911 Mr. Carpenter opened forty branches of the bank in the United Kingdom, and these were nothing else than collecting grounds for money. The advertisement of the bank appeared in 300 newspapers and in theatre programmes. I myself have seen the advertisement in a theatre programme Mr. Carpenter spent no less than £10,000 in the course of three years, from 1907 to 1910, in advertising, and no fewer than 3,176,000 prospectuses were printed and spread broadcast over the country in order to get unfortunate people into the net. Although the business had grown to that enormous extent Mr. Carpenter had never from first to last called in an accountant to make a balance sheet of his entire business. I do not blame him, because he was under no obligation to do it. In 1904 he got a warning as to his position from the Court in a case in the Law Courts, and in 1907 he lost an action against the newspaper "Truth," but his advertisements still appeared in the papers unchanged. At last, in 1910, he was obliged to employ a firm of accountants to investigate his Canadian affairs. But even after his attention had been called to the precarious nature of his business he still went on continuing to receive large sums of money from poor depositors.

Those are the sort of things which we cannot watch unmoved, and I do think if hon. Members would study that and similar cases it would show them that the laxity of our present system does enable reckless and often disreputable people to embark in an undertaking such as this. It would show them also that there are frequently cases of one man having unsupervised control of so-called banks, and that funds are frequently used for the wildest form of speculation. Those banks do no proper banking business at all. Till lately, and I can only say I hope it will not be so for the future, they have been moneylenders pure and simple, carrying on the business with other people's money, and therefore without any check or control in their rash enterprises. It does not at all affect my argument if I am told that in many cases these wild speculations were carried on in good faith. I think that makes very little difference at all. In addition to those immense losses those so called banks have made, we have a class of those so called banks associated with the misappropriation of funds, with the payment of fictitious dividends, with the preparing of false balance sheets, and often no balance sheets at all, and yet keeping outside the reach of the law in many cases. I do not wonder myself at having heard it said by the poorer classes, and here perhaps the hon. Member for Bow and Bromley will agree with me, that there is one law for the rich and another for the poor, because if a shop man or clerk defrauds his employer of a few shillings he may be prosecuted and probably imprisoned, while many a scoundrel escapes merely because he is a clever scoundrel and his defalcations, instead of amounting to a few shillings, may amount to thousands or even hundreds of thousands of pounds.

If I or anyone else advance money to a clerk or servant, we hold that servant responsible for the money; why, then, should we not hold the man responsible to a much greater extent than is the case at present for money which he takes on deposit in a so called bank? I do not know whether this is a counsel of perfection, but I myself honestly confess I should like to see the punishment proportionate to the amount of loss and ruin that has been caused in such cases. I think with the text, "From him that hath much, from him much shall be required," and I should like to see it applied in the way of punishment. I can understand that there may be some opposition by Gentlemen who are connected with banking interests and trading interests of the same sort. I would say this to them, that none of us like interference in our private affairs, none of us like being stopped in the street by a policeman when the traffic is held up, but we bear it, because we know it is for the good of the people. Equally, I think, those gentlemen might allow some slight interference, and if it is to hamper them, though I do not think it will, in what they think are their rights as private traders, vet their sacrifice, and a very slight sacrifice it would be, would be for the good of the community. In the interests of the poorer classes, in the interests of thrift, and in the interests of national commercial honesty, I trust that the House will accept this Resolution, and I hope the Government may speedily act on it.

I beg to second the Motion.

I think the Proposer has shown to the House that there is a very real evil and grievance which ought to de dealt with and considered by this House and by the Government. Our legitimate banks in the past have conducted their business on such safe and sound lines that the word "bank" has acquired a special meaning in the mind of the public. The word "bank" has come to connote safety, and I am sure it is in the interests of the community and of the banks that that meaning should continue in the public mind. I feel confident that the banking interests would never oppose anything which would wipe off the slate those illegitimate and spurious banks. I am sure they would be the last to stand in the way of any proposal which would have that effect, both in their own interests and in the interests of the public. The evil that we have to deal with really is this, that people pass themselves off as banks who are not banks. It is just like where goods have obtained a certain reputation under a certain name: I take the case of Yorkshire Relish, and somebody else begins to sell goods which are not of the same make or manufacture under that name, while leading the public to believe that they are getting that for which they ask. This is precisely the same case, where you have the passing on to the public as a bank something which is not a bank at all, in fact. Something has been said by my hon. Friend about the difficulty of defining the word "bank" but we have already the word "bank" and the words "banking business" used in several Acts of Parliament, and, in fact, there has grown up a meaning that has been considered by Courts of Law.

Perhaps the most generally accepted signification of the term "bank business" would be business of receiving money from customers which could be withdrawn on demand. There are other businesses besides. Perhaps some of us think the most important part of banking business is the lending of money, but the vital, essential part of the business of a bank is recognised, in the technical sense, as the taking of money from customers which is withdrawable on demand. In addition to that there are a great many other things, such as taking care of title deeds and securities, investing money, but those are rather accessories to the main business, which is the receiving of money from customers and its withdrawal on demand. Obviously in a case of that kind it is essential that there should be reserves and liquid assets available to meet the demands that may be made upon them. The moment that, instead of doing a legitimate banking business, you start, under the name of a bank, some kind of speculation, it is a most serious fraud upon the public. Take, in addition to the instances referred to by my hon. Friend, the case of the London and General Bank. That was the bank under whose name and cover Mr. Jabez Balfour financed some of his speculations. That concern had no right whatever to be called a bank. It was not formed for the purpose of banking, but Mr. Jabez Balfour succeeded in extracting money from the public by using the term "bank." You might even start a gold mining venture, and call it the "X. Y. Z. Bank, Ltd.," get money under the pretence that it was a bank, and was going to be worked as a bank, and then use the money for the purposes of your gold mine. The evil is that, as the law stands at present, anybody, whether he carries on a banking business or not, can call himself a bank. A corporation can call itself a banking corporation or a "bank, limited." Private individuals or firms can call themselves banks, although they are not really carrying on a banking business at all. It is to meet that difficulty that we have brought forward this Motion.

I think that so far as the evil is concerned we shall have the almost unanimous assent of the House. I quite agree that when you come to deal with the remedy there may be more difference of opinion. We ought to move with caution, and do nothing that would unduly interfere with or hamper legitimate business. The fact that there have been frauds is no reason why you should unduly hamper or restrict the much larger area of perfectly legitimate and proper business. There are methods that can be adopted which would go some way, at all events, towards achieving the results that we desire without having the detrimental effect that we wish to avoid. The Government themselves, I am quite ready to admit, have gone some way in this direction in the Moneylenders Act of 1911. I should like to think with my hon. Friend that we had some share in spurring them on on those lines. But whatever may have been the origin of the Act, we accept it gratefully as going in the direction in which we desire to move. But it really does not go nearly far enough. All that that Act provides is that in future a moneylender cannot register himself under the name "bank," but that would not have met the Charing Cross Bank case, or the London and General Bank case, or a whole host of other cases. You have to deal with cases where persons masquerade as a bank, and really carry on some other object, but do not register themselves, or need register themselves, under the Moneylenders Act at all. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether he could not take this further step, and provide that in future—I will deal only with the future—it should be illegal for anyone to carry on business under the name of a bank unless he is bonâfide carrying on a banking business. The right hon. Gentleman may say that it is very difficult to define what is bond fide banking business. My answer is that there are already at least two statutes containing those words. The Moneylenders Act of 1900 expressly refers to the boâfide business of banking. J believe there would be no difficulty, in the majority of cases, in deciding whether a company was carrying on a legitimate banking business.

This suggestion would not strike at any existing institution. It would only mean that in future, if a man wanted to use the word "bank," he should be called upon to show that it was a boâfide bank. Any real boâfide bank would not have the smallest difficulty in doing that. It would not apply to those persons who do not use the word "bank." There are a great many people who transact incidental banking business, but they do not use the word "bank." Sometimes even shops carry on what is almost a banker's business in connection with their trade, but they do not call themselves banks, nor ought they to do so unless their main boâfide business is that of banking. I do not think that any real hardship or grievance would be inflicted upon any one if you said that in future any persons or corporation that wished to use the word "bank " or "banking" as part of their name must be boâfide carrying on the business of banking. Let me make one other suggestion, which has, indeed, been adumbrated by my hon. Friend, namely, that anyone who in future—again I limit it to the future—starts a business with the title "bank," should give some evidence of his stability and boâfide , whether in the shape of a deposit with the Board of Trade or in some other form. We have already imposed that condition in the case of life assurance companies. Under the Life Assurance Companies Act, 1870, no one can start a life assurance company without depositing £20,000 with the Board of Trade. If that is a proper provision in the case of life assurance companies, why is it not proper, especially in view of the catastrophes that have happened in the past, to require some kind of security in future in the case of banks? As to the precise form it should take I do not wish to bind myself. I do not desire to do anything that would hamper any legitimate form of business. I do not wish to name any settled amount or to provide any settled method. I throw it out generally as a suggestion for consideration.

Another suggestion I would make is that in future persons who carry on business under the name of banks should have to make some return or balance sheet, just as joint stock banks already have to do. Joint stock banks have to make the ordinary return under the Companies Act, and to put up in their place of business twice a year a statement of assets and liabilities. A person who does not carry on business as a joint stock bank, but who might call himself a bank, is not subject to a similar liability. With regard to joint stock banks, I should like to emphasise the suggestion of my hon. Friend that the auditor should necessarily be a responsible person. Audit is already provided for, but there is no provision that the auditor should be a person of standing or character. These suggestions are thrown out, not so much for definite acceptance in the actual form in which they are put forward, but rather in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give serious, sympathetic, and immediate consideration to the whole subject. This is a subject which ought to be carefully considered in all its bearings upon all interests, but it is not one which brooks any long delay. The public conscience is very easily aroused by some great catastrophe, and very easily lulled again to sleep. We have now almost forgotten about the Charing Cross Bank; we have begun to forget about the coal strike. But I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to give this matter his attention now, and not wait until some further bank failure, or smash, which may ruin thousands of homes and spoil thousands of lives, stirs him into action.

9.0 P.M.

I support very heartily the Motion which has been moved and seconded by hon. Gentlemen on the other side. I would draw their attention to the law t>n this matter in Canada. That law has been enforced for a great many years. It prohibits any corporation from using the word "bank" or "banking," or any similar term unless it is a bank. A bank in Canada can only be constituted by a Statute of the Dominion Parliament. I would suggest that instead of the suggestions made on the other side that it would be quite possible to adopt the Canadian system here. If reference were made to Canada, whether to bankers or the general public, who really are the persons to be protected and assisted by a measure of this kind, it will be found that opinion is absolutely unanimous that the Statute has been of great service indeed. There has been no trouble in Canada since this law was passed, such as there has been here lately in regard to the Charing Cross Bank and a good many other similar cases. As I say, no institution in Canada can carry on the business of banking unless .it is incorporated under the Act of the Dominion Parliament. In addition there is the General Act of that Parliament which provides a great many safeguards, including specific returns quite different from those made under the Joint Stock Companies Act; returns going much further than those that are made under that Act. There are to-day two or three general managers of banks in Canada who are in the penitentiaries for making improper returns. There can be no injury to anyone. It would be very easy here for a general Act similar to that of Canada to be passed. It might not perhaps take in many matters dealt with on the other side, but it would take in this matter and a number of others. Those banks that are now doing banking business would go on under the old laws, if they chose, but afterwards any person desirous of carrying on the business of banking would first have to come to this House and get a charter which would enable them to start their business. They would then come under the provisions of the general Act. For instance, no bank would be able to start unless, as has been suggested, a certain amount of capital had been subscribed, and a certain amount paid up in cash. Unfortunately these provisions have not been very thoroughly carried out. There have been some bad disasters because they have not been. That is not the fault of the law. If the experience of some forty or fifty years of a law of this kind in Canada is studied it will be found that there can be no objection whatever. Banks and public will be protected, and working-class people would rely upon the word "bank," and they would be safe.

I do not think I can quite support the Motion, for it seems to me that this Motion, and the legislation designed to follow from it, is properly designed to meet the very sad case of the failure of the Charing Cross Bank. It further seems to me that these circumstances have been as fully dealt with as it is possible to deal with them by the Moneylenders Act of last year. Under one Clause of that Act, if a moneylender in the course of carrying on the moneylending issues or publishes, or causes to be issued or published, any circular, advertisement, notice, etc., which might be held to imply that he carries on a banking business, he should be liable on summary conviction to the like penalties as if he had failed to comply with Section 2 of the Moneylenders Act, 1900. That seems to me—although my hon. Friend who moved this Motion says that this Act does not deal with a case like the Charing Cross case-to very completely do so. I think Mr. Carpenter, who was the sole proprietor of that bank, was registered as a moneylender. Therefore by the provisions of this Act he would certainly not be allowed to register as a banker, as nobody is allowed to be at the same time a moneylender and also to carry on a banking business. I think that the Government deserve all praise for this Act. It seems to me to be a most excellent enactment. It confers extremely wide powers upon the authorities to cheek, so far as can be done, swindles of this sort. I believe that under this Act the Registrar of Joint Stock Companies has power to inform a firm already in existence that they have, under penalties, to register themselves as moneylenders. A case of this kind was brought to my knowledge, and hon. Members interested in banks may know the institution to which I refer. The Registrar of Joint Stocks Company went to them and informed them that they were carrying on a moneylending business, and that they would have to register themselves as moneylenders. Therefore, ipso facto, they had to cease calling themselves a bank. These are very wide powers and powers in the right direction which should effectively, I think, stop people of the type of Mr. Carpenter.

My hon. Friend says that doctors, solicitors, and so on, have to be properly qualified before they can practice their profession; yet that anybody can put up a building and say he is a banker and carry on that particular profession. That may be true up to a point, but surely the Moneylenders Act does say, even if they are to be qualified as bankers—and nobody can say what a banker is—it will lay down also that they shall not be other things, and, among other things, they shall not be a moneylender. We have a further protection for the ignorant investor, which is the Bank Charters Act of 1844, which says that a banker carrying on business in England or Wales is required to make a return to Somerset House of the name of the firm and the names and addresses of the partners in the firm, and presumably the Charing Cross Bank complied with that Act, and therefore anybody, if they had taken the trouble to look at the "London Gazette" or the "Banking Almanac," would know that it was the sole property of Mr. Carpenter, and they could judge that it was not quite a concern in which they could put the whole of their savings. This Moneylenders Act seems to me to be an excellent restriction, and various Governments have taken all the care they can to safeguard the investor, both by forcing banks to make public their balance-sheets and seeing that they have as much publicity as possible, and also by instituting a very strict system of registration. I listened with great interest to the suggestions which have been put forward, and I think the House will agree with this, that every suggestion that has been made, or that can be made, is, in effect, not what sort of a man has got to carry on a banking business, but what sort of business that bank has got to carry on. These are different things altogether.

I may remind the Government that they are here trespassing upon very serious and delicate matter. Our credit system is entirely created by our banking system. If it was not for the credit set up by the banks, no more trade could be done in the country, and there would be no more employment, than is represented by the actual amount of specie in the country at one time. And therefore the credit system and banking system we have in England— the most wonderful and the most honest in the world, I suppose—is absolutely the bed-rock upon which the whole trade, commerce, and employment of our people rest. But we ought to have a proper sense of proportion in this matter, and you ought to be very careful that in your efforts to cure a disease, which is admittedly proportionately small, you do not inflict injury which would be out of all proportion great and serious to the community as a whole. Several suggestions have been put forward by the Mover and Seconder. The hon. Gentleman who moved the Motion said that anybody who accepted deposits from the public must give a guarantee of solvency. I think that would be an extraordinarily difficult thing to do, because you may put up securities and give every guarantee of solvency, and all that would appear upon your balance sheet, and yet you may cover up from the eyes of the inquiring public the point upon which depends solvency or insolvency, and which no legislation can deal with, which is, how the bank is going to employ its funds in order to ensure its solvency. The Seconder of the Motion said it should be illegal to carry on business under the name of a bank unless a man was carrying on a bonâfide banking business. I am not a lawyer, but I have endeavoured to read some of the Acts which define what is a moneylender and what is a bank, and it seems to me to be a sort of Chinese puzzle. A moneylender is a man who lends money, except he is a bonâfide banker, and a banker is a man who carries on a bonâfide bank unless he is a moneylender. I do not think that this suggestion will lead us to any great length in the direction which we all desire.

Another suggestion was that it might be possible to compel banks to deposit a certain sum, as insurance companies do now, with the Board of Trade. But how is the Board of Trade going to invest such sums? I imagine the right hon. Gentleman opposite would recommend them to invest in Consols, but that would not be a very good way to insure solvency considering the present enormous depreciation of that security. And that suggestion completely misses the point. The solvency or insolvency of the bank must depend not upon the amount of money which they deposit with the Government, but upon the question whether they are going to employ the funds which the depositors have put with them, in such a way that they can be readily accessible, and ready to give them when they want them. No suggestion that has been made can force people who have so accepted deposits to carry on their business on what we have all been brought up to believe are sound banking lines. There is another suggestion which has not been touched upon by either of the hon. Gentlemen, and that is that every person registering himself as a banker should be compelled to keep a certain portion of his assets in what are called "liquid" assets. That might be feasible, but again you do not know what the institution is going to do with such portion of its assets as is not declared to be liquid. One bank might have 50 per cent, of its assets liquid, readily accessible, and the remainder in an extremely tied up condition, and you might have another bank with only 20 per cent, liquid, but with the rest of the funds so accessible as to make it a far sounder institution than its rival which complied entirely with the legislation. I think the Birkbeck Bank is a case in point, as to the difficulty of restricting banking business by legislation. In so far as the business was a bank at all I believe it entirely complied with every suggestion that has been put forward by hon. Members. The only mistake the Birkbeck Bank made was to break the first principle of banking. Instead of keeping in a liquid state the money which was deposited it proceeded to invest it in securities, very good securities, but these securities failed with the result that the crash ensued which everybody knew must come. Although I do not think I can support the Motion of my hon. Friend, still I do think everybody will agree that he is moved by the most laudable sentiments, and he has brought us face to face with the question, how far is it the duty of this House and how far can this House protect persons from the natural result of their own folly. That is after all what it comes to. I personally believe it is neither our duty to the public nor to the depositor. I think the public would very much resent this paternal legislation. Those who have been already bitten might think it was necessary, but everybody who goes a'hunting thinks he is an excellent judge of a horse, and everybody who has got money thinks he is a first-rate judge of an investment. It is not until they put their money in an investment and it has turned out wrong that they begin to think that it is a desirable thing for Parliament to step in and protect them. When the investing public get more common sense in regard to the question of dealing with investments, then you will find these fraudulent institutions will have no market, and will therefore cease to exist. It is not exactly that they are gulled and deluded into doing this by unscrupulous and clever men, because they do it for the hope of gain, because they think they are going to be cleverer than their neighbours who invest in joint stock banks or Consols. Some of us think the same thing ourselves, and we all know our friends do it in order to try and get a little higher interest. If we succeed we are pleased, and if we do not succeed we are correspondingly depressed. The particular class of fraud dealt with by this Motion seems to be the easiest of all to detect, and therefore requires legislation less than any other class of fraud. If we are enticed to invest money in some gold mine in an unknown part of the world, some of us have no means of knowing where that particular country is or whether there is any gold there, and we have to trust the word of the man who tells us.

If you are asked to invest in a bank which is going to pay 6 or 7 per cent, on current accounts, and heaven knows what interest on deposit accounts, it does not take the financial genius of a Rockefeller to see that there is something wrong there. Everyone knows that competition in banking is just as keen as in any other trade, and therefore if the Charing Cross Bank could pay 6 or 7 per cent, on current accounts some other banks would have been led to do the same. By a moderate exercise of common sense and logic, people might easily have understood that there was something wrong with an institution of that sort, because no business carrying on a bonâfide banking business could afford to pay such large premiums on deposit. We must come to this conclusion that it is impossible to have legislation to prevent people from investing in speculative and fraudulent concerns for the inducement of a high rate of interest, and if we try to do this by legislation in the manner advocated to-night we shall almost certainly fail in our very humane object, and we shall probably cripple legitimate banking businesses, and thereby inflict a severe loss upon the trade and industry of this country.

I agree with a great deal that has been said by the last speaker, but I think his argument is a little hard, because he seemed to prove from his reference to the Moneylenders Act and its conditions that really there was no distinction between a moneylender and a banker. There is no distinction, as a matter of fact, except in the matter of custom. Every banker must be a moneylender from the nature of his business. It is impossible for him to avoid it, because, if he does not lend, he cannot make the profit which is necessary, and which is, in fact, the only inducement for conducting the business at all. The argument of the hon. Member who has just sat down was really that it must be left to the discretion of the Registrar to decide who is and who is not a moneylender or a banker. If he is right, that is not a satisfactory state of affairs. I think he is right in saying that if you come to details none of the suggestions made to-night—

Notice taken that forty Members were not present. House counted, and forty Members not being present,

The House was adjourned at Twenty-three minutes after Nine o'clock until to-morrow (Thursday).