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Commons Chamber

Volume 37: debated on Thursday 25 April 1912

House of Commons

Thursday, April 25, 1912

Private Business

Central Argentine Railway Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

National Electric Construction Company Bill (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Thursday next.

Tavistock Urban District Council Bill,

Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee (Section B); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Belfast Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

Ashborne Urban District Council (Gas) Bill,

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Leatherhead Gas Bill [ Lords },

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

Ivybridge Urban District Water Bill,

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Wirral Railway (Extension of Time) Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Crédit Foncier of Mauritius Bill [ Lords ].

Reported, with Amendments; Report 1o lie upon the Table.

Message from the Lords

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board to borrow moneys in connection with the improvement of the Port of Liverpool and the navigation of the River Mersey; and for other purposes." [Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill [ Lords. ]

Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill [ Lords ],

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Post Office Servants (Wages and Conditions of Employment)

Ordered, That the Minutes of the Evidence taken before the Select Committee on Post Office Servants in Session 1906 be referred to the Select Committee on Post Office Servants (Wages and Conditions of Employment).—[ Mr. Holt. ]

Nottingham Mechanics' Institution Bill

Copy presented of Supplemental Report of the Attorney-General to the House of Commons on the Nottingham Mechanics' Institution Bill [presented pursuant to Standing Order 175a]; referred to the Committee on the Bill.

Education Acts (Single School Areas) Amendment Bill

Reported, so far as amended, from Standing Committee A.

Leave given to the Standing Committee to make a Special Report.

Special Report brought up and read; Report and Special Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 105.]

Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee to be printed. [No. 106.]

Historical Manuscripts (Royal Commission)

Copy presented of Calendar of Stuart Papers belonging to His Majesty the King, preserved at Windsor Castle. Volume V. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Shop Hours Act, 1904

Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the county borough of Stoke-on-Trent, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, fixing the Hours of Closing for Butchers' Shops within the borough, and revoking the previous closing order for Butchers' Shops in the area of the former borough of Burslem [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Deer Forests and Sporting Lands (Scotland)

Return ordered of "particulars of all Deer Forests and Lands exclusively devoted to Sport in the various counties of Scotland as at the coming into operation of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, according to the valuation roll for the year 1911–12, in the following form:—

County.

Name of Deer Forest or other Subject.

Proprietor.

Total Acreage.

Greatest Altitude above sea-level in feet.

Least Altitude above sea-level, in feet.

Acreage below 1,000 feet.

Rental as in Valuation Roll.

Observations.

(in continuation, in consolidated and amplified form, of Parliamentary Papers, Nos. 220 and 244, of Session 1908)."—[ Mr. Dundas White. ]

Polling Districts (Borough of Oldham)

Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the borough of Oldham, altering the Polling Districts within the borough [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Police Act, 1890

Copy presented of Correspondence relative to the refusal of the Secretary of State's certificate under Section 17 (2) of The Police Act, 1890, to the Tyne River Police Force, for the year ended 29th September, 1911 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Trade Reports (Annual Series)

Copies presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 4852, 4854, and 4855 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

MUSIC AND DANCING LICENCES-BILL [Lords]

Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, 9th May, and to be printed. [Bill 175.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Italy and Turkey

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether he is in a position to make a further statement as to the pending negotiations for bringing to an end the war between Italy and Turkey?

As I informed the hon. Member on 23rd

April the Powers have inquired of both belligerents on what conditions they would be prepared to accept the friendly mediation of the Powers. Replies to these inquiries have now been received, but as they have not yet been discussed by the Powers concerned, it would be undesirable to say more on the subject at the present juncture.

May we expect therefore that the Foreign Secretary will be able to make a statement upon the subject next. week?

I hope so. I am sure the Foreign Secretary will desire to make a statement as soon as the answers have been considered by the Powers.

Persia

asked whether, in view of the anarchical state of Southern Persia, the consequent injury to British trade and the comparative peace and prosperity of Northern Persia, the hon. Gentleman will consider the advisability of adopting some such measures in the Southern as have produced such satisfactory results in Northern Persia.

Before considering any further steps it is only reasonable to await the results of the efforts to restore order by a force of Persian gendarmerie which is being organised under Swedish officers to which reference was made in the reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Melton on the 21st ultimo. My answer must not be taken as confirming the accuracy of the statements contained in the hon. Member's question.

I think about nine. Perhaps I should ask for notice of the question to be accurate.

May I ask whether the measures taken in Northern Persia did not include the shooting and hanging of religious teachers, and whether it is intended to repeat this in Southern Persia?

The acts mentioned by the hon. Member and others, as I said, could not be taken as confirming the accuracy of the statement in the question.

May I ask how the interests of British trade progress while these experiments are being tried?

They seem to us to be very much more hopeful than by occupying the country with British troops.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that a farmer named John Nugent, possessing a holding of only nine acres, made application for an allotment on the Ussher estate, at Kilmalaw, county Galway, and was refused; and whether he will recommend the Estates Commissioners to grant him an allotment out of the 400 acres purchased by them in 1910, or the Congested Districts Board out of the 200 acres of the Liscard farm which they have had on hand for some years?

The Estates Commissioners received an application from John Nugent for a parcel of land on the estate of W. A. Ussher, county Galway, and, after inquiry and consideration, decided not to make him an allotment, and they see no reason to alter their decision. The Congested Districts Board know nothing of the application of John Nugent, and they cannot say whether he is a person to whom they would give an allotment on the land referred to.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason for the Estates Commissioners refusing the allotment to a small uneconomic holder of this sort?

Was it simply and solely because he would not join the local branch of the United Irish League?

asked whether, in reference to the estate of Miss Olivia Creagh McMahon, parish of Kilmurry, Ibrickane, county Clare, the Chief Secretary is aware that about three years ago the estate was purchased by the Estates Commissioners, with the exception of a grazing ranch of 54 acres at Kilclehaun; whether he can state the reason of the exemption of this ranch; and whether, in view of the fact that there are still a number of uneconomic tenants on the estate, steps will be taken as soon as possible to divide this ranch for their benefit according to the Land Act of 1909?

The Estates Commissioners acquired and distributed some 363 acres of the lands of Kilclehaun, the property of the trustees of Creagh McMahon, county Clare. The Commissioners are not aware that a grazing ranch of 54 acres was excluded from the sale. The townland of Kilclehaun comprizes in all 390 acres. Of the balance of 27 acres, which was not acquired by the Commissioners, part appears to be taken up by labourers' cottages and part by the local railway.

Commissioners of National Education (Ireland)

asked whether at the Irish National Teachers' Congress recently held at Kilkenny a resolution was adopted asking that the code of the Commissioners of National Education be so amended that their rules and regulations shall be laid down upon the Table of the House of Commons one month before receiving the official seal; and whether the Government is prepared to take the necessary steps to have this desired reform carried into effect?

I have seen a copy of the resolution referred to. The codes and syllabuses of the Commissioners of National Education have never been laid upon the Table of the House, and I see no reason to depart from the established practice in this matter.

Teachers' Salaries (Ireland)

asked whether five teachers, who were Queen's scholars during the years 1898–1900, got, while in charge of schools under fifty, on their first appointment under the National Board, a higher salary than £56 per annum, while ten teachers who were in training during the same years and in charge of schools over fifty were paid at the rate of £56 per year; can the Chief Secretary state the reasons assigned by the Commissioners for this difference of treatment; whether those Queen's scholars who entered training in 1898 got, prior to their entrance to a training college, any notice to the effect that their initial salary would be £56 per annum; and whether those who had promises of schools worth, under the old rules, about £100 a year got any special consideration from the Commissioners of National Education?

The Board of National Education are unable to make any statement in regard to the teachers referred to unless the names of the teachers, the names of their schools, and the dates of their appointments are furnished. Teachers who entered training colleges in 1898 got no notice to the effect stated. The Commissioners have no knowledge of any such promises to teachers as are alleged in the question.

Government of Ireland Bill

Rent Fixing

asked if the new Dublin Parliament will have power by legislation to deal with the rent-fixing provisions of the Irish Land Acts so as to reduce the statutory periods, remove all lands at present excepted from existing protection, appoint new Land Commissioners to fix Tents, and diminish the present rights of appeal?

The rent-fixing provisions of the Irish Land Acts are not a reserved matter, and the Irish Parliament will have power to legislate with regard to them.

Seeing that the interests of Irish landlords are seriously jeopardised by the Acts dealing with the fixing of fair rents, why have the Government decided not to make this a reserved service as they did with land purchase?

Irish Civil Service

asked if it will be within the competence of the Dublin Parliament to provide by rule or legislation that no person shall be qualified for any Irish Civil Service appointment or for the Irish Parliament who does not possess a knowledge of the Irish language?

As to the Irish Civil Service the answer is "Yes." As to the Irish House of Commons the answer is "No."

May I ask whether no one will be allowed to enter the Irish Civil Service who does not possess a knowledge of the Irish language?

I said the question was whether it was within the competence of the Dublin Parliament.

Primary and Secondary Education

asked if the Dublin Parliament will have control of primary and secondary education in Ireland; what will become of the present Imperial Grant; and will the Dublin Parliament have power to provide by legislation for a rate for educational purposes?

The Irish Parliament will have the control of primary and secondary education, and will have power to provide by legislation for a rate for educational purposes. The equivalents of the present Imperial Grants will be included in the transferred sum, and will be at the disposal of the Irish Parliament.

What protection will be provided in the Bill for Protestant teachers in this matter?

Lord Lieutenant

asked whether, under the provisions of the Government of Ireland Bill, the existing regulation preventing the Lord Lieutenant from attending party meetings will be removed?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that the Lord Lieutenant recently attended a Home Rule meeting? I have here a photograph.

May I ask whether under the present rules His Majesty's representative in Ireland is permitted to attend these party meetings of Nationalists in Dublin?

I am not speaking of the photograph; I am speaking of the existing regulations.

Are we to understand that the right hon. Gentleman actually does not know what the regulations are in this matter?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no such regulation exists at all?

Joint Exchequer Boaed

asked the Prime Minister whether he would state what salary, if any, was to be paid to members of the Joint Exchequer Board as established by Clause 22 of the Government of Ireland Bill; whether it was proposed that such salary, if any, should be the same in the case of both British and Irish Members; and whether the conduct of the Board as a whole would be within the purview of both the British and Irish Parliaments or limited to the actual Members that represents each nation, respectively?

The question of the salaries of the members of the Joint Exchequer Board has not yet been settled. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent either Parliament discussing the conduct of the Board.

Will the fifth Member nominated by the Prime Minister be subject to the criticism of both the British and the Irish Parliaments?

Viceroy (Expenses)

asked the Prime Minister whether, owing to the reduced scale of entertainment and economy in mode of living that has been customary for some years past at the Irish Court, he would,, before Clause 31 of the Government of Ireland Bill was discussed, prepare a statement showing the actual annual expense incurred by the holder of the office of Viceroy, any easement derived from the sale of garden or other produce or rent received for grazing being taken into consideration?

There is no ground for the allegation that a reduced scale of entertainment has been adopted at the Irish Court in recent years. Last year the Castle season fell within the period of mourning for his late Majesty, and the usual festivities could not be held. This year the death of the Duke of Fife immediately after the commencement of the Castle season led to a postponement of Court functions, which have been resumed now that the period of mourning is at an end. So far from this postponement resulting in diminished expense, it has necessarily entailed considerably increased outlay. I do not know on what ground the hon. Gentleman undertakes to make the suggestion contained in his question, and I do not propose to ask for the statement indicated by him. It is a well-known fact that the salary of a Lord Lieutenant does not meet the expenses of his office, and must be largely supplemented from his private purse, and the expenditure of the present Lord Lieutenant has in every year since he took office far exceeded his official salary. The sale of produce from the Viceregal gardens, which had been the custom for many years, was stopped by the present Lord Lieutenant shortly after entering upon office, and the surplus produce of the gardens has since been distributed among various charit- able institutions in and around Dublin. The rent for grazing amounts, I understand, to £30 a year.

Is it not a fact that the fruit was offered for sale, but was refused by all the fruit-sellers in Dublin?

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is the hon. Gentleman entitled, when another hon. Member asks a question or a supplementary question, to describe him as being an ungentlemanly Member of the House?

It was not the personality of the questioner, but the nature of the question that was referred to.

Is not an observation such as has been made by the hon. Member below the Gangway a direct reflection upon you Sir, seeing that these questions are supposed to be passed by you?

Yield of Duties

asked what is the estimated yield for the year 1912–13 of the duties that, under the Government of Ireland Bill, the Irish Parliament may increase up to 10 per cent, of the yield or may increase without limitation, respectively?

The estimated true revenue of Ireland for the year 1912–13 in respect of the duties referred to is as follows:—

Fee Stamps

asked whether the Government of Ireland Bill proposes that the fee stamps, at present realising £81,000 a year, should be handed over to the Irish Exchequer as part of the Post Office revenue?

These fee stamps do not form part of the Post Office revenue, but represent fees (for example, judicial fees) in respect of special Irish services which are excluded from the definition of tax in Clause 47 of the Bill. They will be collected and retained by the Irish Exchequer, and no sum in respect of them will be included in the transferred sum.

Stamp Duties

asked what is the estimated yield for the year 1912–13 of the Stamp Duties which, by the Government of Ireland Bill, the Irish Parliament may vary or the Irish Parliament may not vary, respectively?

The contribution of Ireland for 1912–13 to the Stamp Duties enumerated in the Second Schedule to the Bill is estimated at £110,000, and to the remainder of the Stamp Duties at £237,000.

Salaries of Members (Imperial Parliament)

asked whether, in the event of the Government of Ireland Bill becoming law, the Irish representatives in this House will be paid a salary; and, if so, whether that salary will be paid out of Irish or Imperial sources?

The Irish representatives in this House will continue to be paid a salary from Imperial sources.

Lord Chancellorship

asked whether, under the Government of Ireland Bill, the appointment of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland will be in the hands of the Irish Executive Government; and, if so, whether the nomination of magistrates will be in his hands.

The Lord Chancellor will be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, and, subject to any arrangements made by the Irish Parliament or Executive, the appointment of magistrates will be in his hands.

Ministerial Representation

asked if, in the event of the Government of Ireland Bill passing into law, that country would be represented in the Imperial Government by the Secretary of State for Colonial Affairs or by a new Minister?

I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Chief Secretary on the 23rd instant in reply to a question asked by the hon. Member for the Kingswinford Division.

South Armagh

asked the Prime Minister whether he will state the population of the constituency of South Armagh, including that part of Newry which is situated in Armagh County, and referred to in the Second Schedule of the Government of Ireland Bill?

South Down

asked the Prime Minister whether he will state the number of electors in the constituency of South Down, including that part of Newry which is situated in Down County, and referred to in the First Schedule of the Government of Ireland Bill?

The population is approximately 55,013. The number of electors cannot be stated.

May I ask where the Prime Minister is that he does not come down to answer?

Congested Districts Board

asked whether, under the terms of the Government of Ireland Bill, the Grants, salaries, and expenses of the Congested Districts Board will constitute a reserve service; and whether, in the event of the answer being in the negative, it is contemplated to make further advances to the Board from the Imperial Exchequer for the purpose of acquiring estates, reselling the same to tenant occupiers, or for the creation of economic holdings, within the area administered by the Board?

The Grants, salaries, and expenses of the Congested Districts Board, so far as they are not included in the general subject matter of the Land Purchase Acts, will not be a reserved service. Advances for land purchase will continue to be made from the Imperial Exchequer.

Questions

Eastern Shipping Company

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that, by adhering to the conditions in the licence to the Eastern Shipping Company imposed by the Governor of the Straits Settlements, the company's fleet will be driven away from the British Empire and compelled to construct a slip in Siam where it can enjoy the privilege denied to it in the Straits Settlements of repairing its own ships without restriction; and, seeing that, by holding the company to the observance of such conditions, he will render valueless the capital expended by the company in the construction of their slip, whether he will consider the advisability of releasing the company from the conditions of their licence?

I am not aware that the consequences of adhering to the conditions imposed will be as suggested in the first part of this question. If the company find that their expenditure has been useless they have only themselves to blame, as they persisted in the construction of slipways after they had been warned that the Government would not permit the use of the foreshore. The fact that they were subsequently allowed a restricted use of the foreshore shows that they were treated with exceptional consideration, and I am not prepared to intervene on their behalf.

asked whether the late Governor, by the exercise of the Royal Prerogative on the occasion in question, penalised the Eastern Shipping Company in consequence of his avowed object to support a monopoly for the Penang Dock, thereby using against a commercial competitor this powerful weapon for crushing it in an important branch of its trade; and whether the right hon. Gentleman will direct a full and impartial inquiry into the whole matter?

I am advised that the late Governor's action was in accordance with the law, and I see no reason for taking any action in the matter. The Colonial Government has expended enormous sums in acquiring complete control of the wharfage and docking facilities of the Colony, and to give commercial rivals opportunities for competing against them would be to stultify their action.

As to the last part of the question, will the right hon. Gentleman institute a full and impartial inquiry into the whole matter which is going on for some time?

I do not know whether the hon. Member will consider an inquiry by myself full and impartial, and if so, I will make it.

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that Free Trade is of advantage to the Colonies?

House of Commons (Lift Accommodation)

asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will consider the question of the construction of a lift from the Cloak Boom to the Lobby of the House.

In the current financial year there are no available funds for such a purpose. The First Commissioner will give the suggestion his consideration, but at this moment he is not prepared to say more.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of constructing the lift if only for the purpose of assisting the tired supporters of the present Government?

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that we suffer greatly from lack of exercise?

Marine Insurance Companies

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the marine insurance companies on the approved list for Government business can take what amount they choose upon the larger risks, or whether the Admiralty decides upon the amount each company is strong enough to retain; and, if the latter, what principles guide the Department in their decisions?

The Admiralty have fixed an amount which is the maximum risk that an insurance company on the approved list may accept on any ship, but within that limit the shipbuilders are permitted to place the risks among the approved insurance companies as may be most convenient.

Government Contractors, Pointhouse (Fair-Wages Clause)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can now state the result of the inquiry into the alleged violation of the Fair-Wages Clause by Messrs. A. and J. Inglis, Pointhouse, in the pay to their labourers?

We came to the conclusion that the rate paid to labourers by the firm in question was less than the current district rate, and we have communicated with them accordingly.

Floating Docks

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any decision has yet been arrived at regarding the proposal to have a floating dock towed to Cromarty and used temporarily there as a subsidiary base?

No decision has yet been arrived at; the matter is still under consideration.

National Insurance Act

Sanatorium Benefit

asked the Secretary to the Treasury (1) what is the estimated number of persons who will be entitled to sanatorium benefit on 15th July, 1912; (2) what is estimated will be the cost of permanent and temporary buildings to be provided by 15th July, 1912, for the accommodation of persons entitled to sanatorium benefit; and (3) what are the number, names, and addresses of the private sanatoria with which arrangements have been made to provide the benefits of sanatorium treatment in cases of tuberculosis on the date on which the Insurance Act comes into operation; and what is the number of beds available in such private sanatoria?

It will rest with the local Insurance Committees (or pending their appointment, with other authorities set up temporarily for the purpose), subject to certain conditions, to recommend tuberculous insured persons for sanatorium or other treatment, and to make the necessary arrangements with sanatoria and other institutions. I am unable to say at present how many persons will require sanatorium benefit in July next, and it is clearly impossible that such arrangements as those which the hon. Member suggests should have been concluded as yet with private sanatoria. With regard, however, both to these questions and also to that of the cost of building sanatoria, I would beg to refer the hon. Member to the first Report of the Tuberculosis Committee, which will, I hope, be published in a few days.

Has the hon. Gentleman no further information to give to the House if anything has been done with regard to providing sanatorium benefit for those who are entitled to it under the Act?

Arrangements are being considered, and some of them are being put forward. I think there, is no answer I can usefully give until the Report of the Committee is before the hon. Gentleman.

Trades Union Act, 1871

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the case of Thomas v. Portsmouth A Branch of the Ship Constructive, etc., Association, recently decided in the Divisional Court, whereby a member of a trade union was debarred from recovering sick benefit on the ground that the trade union was an illegal association; and whether it will be possible for a trade union becoming an approved society under the National Insurance Act to repudiate its liabilities towards insured members on the above ground, or on the ground that Section 4 of the Trades Union Act, 1871, protects a trade union from being sued in respect of benefits?

The rights of the members of an approved society under the National Insurance Act, 1911, will be decided in accordance with that Act and the rules of the society made thereunder, whether the approved society is .also a trade union or not, and any such member has by Section 67 of the Act a right of appeal from the decision of the society to the Insurance Commissioners.

Is it not a fact that trade unions are not illegal associations, but being in restraint of trade they come under the Trade Union Acts?

Rural District Councils

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will consider the advisability. of giving representation, to rural district councils on the Advisory Committee under the National Insurance Act?

The English Commission are considering the question of including a representative of the Rural District Councils' Association in the Advisory Committee to the Commission.

Questions

Cross Channel Steamship Services (Boat Accommodation)

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many persons could be accommodated in the boats now carried by the passenger steamers plying between Dover and Calais under the English and French flags, respectively; and what is the total number of passengers and crew these steamers are certified to carry?

The information asked for by the hon. Member, so far as I am able to give it, shall be circulated with the Votes. ( See Written Answers this date )

Can the right hon. Gentleman now state whether he has communicated with the companies as he promised a week ago, and what the answer is?

The reply is rather long, and I will circulate it with the Votes. The companies in question have been asked to attend a conference at the Board of Trade.

Do I understand that representatives of the South-Eastern Railway Company and the Northern Railway Company of France will attend this meeting?

May I ask whether under the new Regulations which are to be made for the provision of lifeboats, the right hon. Gentleman will see that at least one motor boat is provided?

Will the right hon Gentleman call special attention to the provision of motor lifeboats?

Is it not the fact that all these boats are well equipped with life-saving apparatus and such like?

I am circulating the answer with the Votes as the particulars are rather long.

Steamships "Le Nord" and "Lockwood" (Collision)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has held an inquiry as to the cause of the collision which took place in daylight and clear weather on the 1st of March last between the Channel mail packet "Le Nord" and the steamer "Lockwood"; if so, what the result of such inquiry is; and, if not, will he say why no inquiry has been held; can he state why prompt assistance was not sent from Dover in response to the signals 6f distress made by "Le Nord"; and whether he can state the number of passengers and crew on board "Le Nord" at the time of the collision and the amount of the boat accommodation available1?

This case was carefully considered. As, however, there was no loss of life, arid neither vessel was very seriously damaged; and in view of the fact that litigation was pending in the Admiralty Court which would elicit the causes of the casualty and fix the responsibility, no formal Board of Trade investigation was ordered in respect of the collision. "Le Nord" is a French vessel. She does not hold a British passenger steamship certificate, nor do her officers hold certificates from the Board of Trade; and therefore they could not have been dealt with by a Court of Inquiry in this country. I am informed that the collision, which occurred two miles off Dover Harbour, was not observed from Dover, but that, as soon as distress signals were sighted on the French vessel, the tug "Lady Crundall," which had been lying in Dover Harbour with steam up, was immediately dispatched to render assistance. I understand that there were about 350 persons on board "Le Nord," including passengers and crew, at the time of the collision, and that the vessel had six boats, and is provided with watertight compartments. I understand that the boats would, accommodate between 160 and 170 persons.

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to have said that this Government could not institute an inquiry into an accident happening to a ship owned by a foreign company and proceeding to one of our ports?

I did not say so at all. I gave reasons why, in this particular case, an official inquiry is not held, but I pointed out that it being a French ship, and the certificates not being issued by the Board of Trade, that the Board of Trade have no control over those certificates in the case of an inquiry.

Is the "Le Nord" still running with those boats only carrying 170 persons, while she is certified to carry between five and six hundred persons?

May I ask whether, in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman promised to communicate with the authorities on this point he has had any communication with them, and whether seeing that "Le Nord" and the "Pas de Calais" had no watertight compartments whatever, he cannot make some representation either to the railway company or the Government of France?

Industrial Unrest

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the importance of dealing promptly with organised national strikes, the Government will now appoint a Commission to inquire into the question of. Industrial Unrest and its causes?

asked the Prime Minister when the Government will be able to give a definite reply to the Memorial asking for a Royal Commission on Co-partnership?

asked the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to recommend His Majesty to grant a Royal Commission to inquire how far co-partnership is applicable to the industries of the country and would promote industrial peace?

asked the Prime Minister whether he has yet been able to see his way to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the applicability of co-partnership to the industries of this country?

The problem of industrial unrest in all its aspects is receiving the careful consideration of the Cabinet. I have already stated that we recognise the importance of an investigation into the quesion of co-partnership; but, as at present advised, we do not think that the question should be treated as an isolated part of the problem; and we are not satisfied that the appointment of a Royal Commission is the best method of dealing with the matter. I hope that the hon. Members concerned will, for the present, be satisfied with this reply.

May I ask when he expects to be able to make a statement on this subject?

I am afraid I cannot say at the present moment. We are proceeding with the investigation into these matters.

Does the answer of the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Government have definitely decided not to appoint a Royal Commission on the subject?

No. The Noble Lord knows perfectly well that we are examining into the matter. We are attending to the matter, and we hope we will get his assistance, amongst others, in doing so. I trust we shall be able to give an answer in the course of a fortnight or three weeks, when we finish some preliminary investigations into the matter.

Is the Government going to do nothing until a national strike is declared?

Has there not been a strike in a profit-sharing establishment in Yorkshire which has just been settled?

As that question is intended to strike at me, and as I feel personally interested, I may be allowed to ask if it is the case that the firm to which allusion has just been made did before and still pays a higher rate for this kind of work than any other firm in the trade?

Industrial Council (Women's Representation)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he was aware of the disappointment which was felt by the bodies representative of women's labour that no woman had been appointed on the Industrial Council; and if he could see his way to remedy this defect by appointing two well-qualified women as members of the Council?

The question of the appointment of women as members of the Industrial Council has received very full consideration, but I do not think it would be practicable at the present time to add to the membership of the Council. I may point out to my hon. Friend that in the event of any trade in which women are largely employed being dealt with by the Council it would be open to the Council to have the assistance of women who are experts in such trade or who represent the employers or workers concerned.

Shipping Conferences

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any, and, if any, what trusts and combines, had been formed amongst the various British shipping companies engaged in the North Atlantic and South African trades; if so, whether he had official information showing that such trusts or combines had been formed with the object of stifling competition; and whether it was the intention of the Government to introduce legislation similar to the Anti-Trust Laws in the United States of America for the purpose of regulating and controlling the same?

Information as to the nature and objects of shipping conferences in general, and of those in the trade with South Africa and Canada in particular, will be found in the Report of the Royal Commission on Shipping Rings (especially Volume II.), and also, as regards Canada, in the Report to the Board of Trade on the Trade of Canada (Cd. 5591). In view of the Report of the Royal Commission, I do not propose to introduce legislation of the kind referred to by the hon. Member.

The right hon. Gentleman has referred to Canada, but the question is addressed to the North Atlantic.

If the hon. Gentleman has any further question to ask I shall be very glad to answer it.

Tube Railways (Carriage of Parcels)

asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether his attention had been called to the fact that the tube railway companies had recently commenced to carry parcels in the carriages and corridors available for passengers; whether there were any Board of Trade regulations prohibiting the carriage of inflammable articles in these railways; and whether, in view of the fact that a fire or fear of fire in these tubes would necessarily cause a panic amongst the passengers, resulting in loss of life or danger of life, and that this danger would be increased by the obstruction to the passengers caused by the carriage of parcels and the standing of parcels baskets in the corridors leading to the lifts and exits, he would make regulations regulating and limiting the carriage of parcels in the tube railways?

I have asked for the observation of the Railway Companies concerned in this matter, and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as their replies have been considered by the Department.

Exports

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he would state the value of the total exports of the United Kingdom to the United States of America and to Australia in the years 1910 and 1911, respectively?

The value of the exports of the produce and manufactures of the United Kingdom consigned to the United States of America was £31,447,000 in 1910 and £27,520,000 in 1911. The value of the exports to the Commonwealth of Australia was £27,652,000 in 1910 and £30,881,000 in 1911.

Does the right hon. Gentleman attribute this enormous increase in the exports to Australia to the preference to the Mother-country, or to any other reason?

I must leave that until we have an opportunity of discussing Free Trade.

asked what was the percentage increase in total exports to the Indian Empire and to Egypt, respectively, from the United Kingdom and the German Empire during the period 1900–11?

The exports of the produce and manufactures of the United Kingdom to British India were greater in 1911 than in 1900 by 74 per cent, and the exports to Egypt greater in 1911 than in 1900 by 72 per cent. The special exports of Germany to British India increased in the same period by 77 per cent, and to Egypt by 195 per cent. I must explain, with regard to the last figure, that in 1900 German exports to Egypt were relatively trifling.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether, bearing these facts in mind, it is not expedient to have more trade agents in India and in Egypt, as the German nation have?

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he would state the percentage increase in exports of manufactures and produce collectively consigned to the Crown Colonies and British Protectorates by the United Kingdom and the German Empire, respectively, during the period 1900–11?

The exports of the produce and manufactures of the United Kingdom to all British Possessions other than British India and the self-governing Dominions was greater in 1911 than in 1900 by 55 per cent. The special exports of Germany to the same markets increased in the same period by 42 per cent.

asked what was the collective value of manufactures consigned from, the United Kingdom in the years 1897 and 1911, respectively, to Germany, France, Russia, Italy, Belgium, and the Netherlands; and what was the total collective value of exports of manufactures consigned to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa in the same years?

This information will take some time to prepare, and the earlier figures will not be absolutely comparable with those for last year, as information with regard to the countries of ultimate destination of exports was not collected in 1897. I will, however, send the hon. Member in due course a statement embodying such information as is available.

Home Rule (Scotland)

asked whether the proposed further degree of development in statutory devolution of Scottish business is to be carried out by a reorganisation of the Scottish Committee or by an immediate scheme of Home Rule for Scotland?

I have nothing to add to the passage in the Prime Minister's speech on the introduction of the Government of Ireland Bill which dealt with this matter.

Am I to understand that any scheme of Scottish devolution is on the shelf in the meantime?

The Noble Lord must understand nothing more than was mentioned in the speech of the Prime Minister.

Will the scheme for Home Rule for Scotland be introduced into this Parliament?

Franchise Reform Bill

asked the Prime Minister if he can state when it is intended to introduce the Franchise Reform Bill?

Board of Trade (Mercantile Marine)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the increasing responsibilities of the Board of Trade as regards the mercantile marine, he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to establish a separate ministry of mercantile marine?

In my opinion there would be no advantage in multiplying the number of Departments or Ministers.

Financial Relations (Great Britain and Ireland)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will publish the evidence given before the Committee on Irish Finance?

I am not prepared to accede to the hon. Member's request, as much of the evidence was given on the understanding that it would be treated as confidential.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the public are referred to the evidence given before the Commission in the Report that has been published by the Government?

Will the evidence of those members who are willing to consent to their evidence appearing be allowed to appear?

The Government will consider that point if there is any real demand made for the evidence.

Is not the Government bound to publish the evidence if reference is made, to it in the Report?

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by "bound." I do not want to express an opinion upon that. But certainly we could not publish the evidence of those who gave it on the understanding that it was confidential.

When quotations are made in the Report from the Special Report does it not follow that the whole of the evidence ought to be produced?

Is it not always the case when documents are used by the Government and quotations made by Members of the Government in the House that they are obliged to print the evidence to which reference is made in the Report?

I do not know about evidence, but if the Government quote from a document in this House they must produce the document.

Artillery Practice (Portsmouth)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received from the mayor and corporation of Ryde a memorial containing their objections to the proposed new by-laws regulating Artillery practice at Portsmouth; whether he is aware that the proposed by-laws would seriously prejudice the interests of the people of Ryde and the neighbourhood during the summer and regatta season; and whether, before he sanctions the proposed new by-laws, he will order that a Public Inquiry shall be held at which all persons affected by them could give evidence?

I have received a memorial from the corporation of Ryde, in which it is alleged that the proposed new by-laws regulating Artillery practice at Portsmouth would seriously interfere with the use of the yacht anchorage at Ryde, and Would injuriously affect the interests of the borough during the summer. I propose to order a Public Inquiry before coming to a decision regarding the by-laws.

Vagrants (Thumb Prints)

asked the President of the Local Government Board, whether he is aware of a decision of the Ampthill Board of Guardians to take the thumb prints of all vagrants seeking the shelter of the casual ward, the operation to be performed at the police station; whether he has sanctioned the board of guardians taking such action; and, if not, whether he will intervene in the matter?

I understand that some three weeks ago the Ampthill Board of Guardians resolved to offer no objection to a proposal emanating from the police authority that thumb prints should be taken of vagrants applying for way tickets. I am informed, however, that no instructions have yet been given to the assistant relieving officer, that no thumb prints have been taken, that the matter has been reconsidered by the chairman of the board of guardians, and that, at their next meeting, a motion will be submitted for the rescission of the resolution referred to.

If the Board attempt to do that will the right hon. Gentleman intervene and stop them?

I would like to know whether the Local Government Board approves of the method?

No, there is no legal authority, and this was done on the suggestion, I believe, of one of the police officers, and the Vagrancy Committee, I believe, suggested that habitual vagrants should be marked. The guardians have no legal authority.

Am I to understand that a man in an ordinary case presenting himself here may refuse to consent to a thumb print being taken and cannot be compelled to do so?

Imperial Trade Commission

asked whether an opportunity will be given at an early date for the discussion of the appointment of the representatives of the United Kingdom on the Royal Commission to inquire into the trade resources of the Empire?

The most suitable opportunity for this discussion would be on the Colonial Office Estimates, but the Prime Minister has asked me to communicate on the subject with the hon. Member.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if, in answering for the Prime Minister, he is in possession of the Prime Minister's mind concerning the question I asked him; whether he would use his influence with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lincoln to remove from the Notice Paper of the House the Resolution which prevents this question being discussed during the Session?

I am not acquainted with the Prime Minister's mind on the subject, but on that point alone, if I am asked to act as his deputy, I will endeavour to meet the hon. Member.

Supposing the Motion in the name of the hon. Member for Lincoln does remain on the Paper, Will it be open to hon. Members of the House to raise any discussion on the personnel of the Commission on the Colonial Office Vote?

No blocking notice can prevent a discussion on the subject on the Colonial Office Vote.

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform the House when this opportunity will occur?

That is precisely the point on which I would ask hon. Members on the opposite side of the House to communicate with me.

Is it not the case that Wednesday, 22nd May, is the only possible opportunity for discussing this matter before the Whitsuntide Recess, due to the fact that it is almost impossible to find a date before then?

I think if the Noble Lord consults me in the usual way some arrangement can be come to.

Poor Law (Feeble-minded Persons)

asked whether the President of the Local Government Board has any reason to suppose that there has been any substantial variation in the number of feeble-minded persons other than certified lunatics in workhouses or other Poor Law institutions since the date of the last Return on 1st January, 1906; and, if so, in what direction such variation has taken place?

I have no reason to suppose that there has been any substantial variation in the number of these persons since the date mentioned.

Loans (Co-Partnership Tenants, Limited)

asked if loans of money have been granted under the Housing and Town Planning Act to a body known as the Co-partnership Tenants, Limited, or societies affiliated therewith; and, if so, what is the total amount of such loans and the rate of interest payable thereon, and what is the nature of the business relations between the Co-partnership Tenants, Limited, and its affiliated societies?

No loans have been granted by the Public Works Loan Commissioners to the Co-partnership Tenants, Limited. Loans to an aggregate amount of £639,353 at 3½ per cent, have been granted to thirteen societies affiliated to the Co-partnership Tenants, Limited. I have no information with regard to the last part of the question.

Coal Strike (Disfranchisement)

asked whether the President of the Local Government Board will take such steps as may be necessary to prevent the disfranchisement of men who were not in any way the cause of the coal strike, but who had to accept Poor Law relief owing to causes over which they had no control?

The question of disfranchisement on account of the receipt of Poor Law relief due either to general or special causes is receiving the consideration of the Government.

May I ask if a decision will be come to so that those men who have been compelled to accept relief during the strike or owing to the strike may not be struck off the register this year?

The disfranchisement in any case does not actually occur until the 1st January next, and before that we hope to take some steps.

Post Office (Payment of Local Rates)

asked the Postmaster-General if the contribution due by the Government in lieu of rates on wires taken over from the National Telephone Company in Scotland will be calculated upon a valuation stereotyped as at 30th June last, or whether the contribution in lieu of rates will be based upon the actual valuation thereof as appearing annually in the valuation roll?

Contributions will be calculated upon the valuations as they stood on or before the 31st December last, and not upon the annual valuations which may appear in later valuation rolls.

Is it the intention that the Government, who are well able to pay rates, should be preferentially treated, as against other ratepayers who cannot so well afford to pay?

The Government wires were never subject to rates. The existing wires which were erected by the Postmaster-General do not pay rates, and consequently future wires cannot pay rates. The Post Office wires were excepted by Statute from the payment of rates.

Transatlantic Mail Contracts (Penalties)

asked whether the contracts for the conveyance-of transatlantic mails lay down any stipulated time for the passage, and, if so, what time; whether any penalties are laid down in case such time is exceeded; and, if so, whether such penalties are enforced1?

The contracts made by my Department for the conveyance of mails between this country and the United States of America contain no such provisions.

Coal Mines (Minimum Wage) Act (Cannock Chase Output)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the output of coal in the Cannock Chase district, as scheduled under the Coal Mines (Minimum Wage) Act, for 1911, and the number of boys employed in those mines under fifteen years of age in December of 1911?

The output of coal in the Cannock Chase district in 1911 was 5,614,880 tons. The Returns from the owners required by the Act do not show the number of boys under fifteen employed, but the number of boys ordinarily employed in 1911 in the district was ninety-seven between the ages of thirteen and fourteen, and 621 between the ages of fourteen and sixteen.

Coronation (Police Medals)

asked the Home Secretary whether the Coronation medals which were promised last July to the Police Force in England have yet been issued; and, if not, the reason for the delay?

My right hon. Friend is informed that these medals will probably be ready for distribution in about five weeks' time. The delay has been due to pressure of work at the Mint.

Metropolitan Law Courts (Ushers)

asked the Home Secretary to state who has the nomination for promotion of the assistant ushers in the Metropolitan Law Courts under his jurisdiction; what are the qualifications which are usually considered in promoting; and will he introduce some method of competition, as, for example, the position taken by the men in the qualifying examination?

Promotions from the rank of assistant usher in the Metropolitan Police Courts are made by the Home Secretary on the recommendation of the Chief Magistrate, and are based on considerations of seniority and merit. My right hon. Friend does not think that the suggestion contained in the last part of the question could be adopted with advantage. An officer's fitness for promotion depends mainly on the way he does his work.

asked the Home Secretary when the last qualifying examination by the Civil Service Commissioners took place for the office of assistant usherships in the Metropolitan Law Courts under his jurisdiction; what were the subjects in which the candidates were examined; how many candidates sat for the examination and how many were successful in getting appointments; and was the examination made known beforehand to possible candidates by advertisement or otherwise?

The last appointment was made in January last. As was explained to my hon. Friend on 2nd April, the examination is not competitive, but the appointed candidate has to pass a qualifying examination. The subjects of examination are: writing (including copying manuscript) and spelling, arithmetic and reading aloud. Numerous applications for appointment are received from time to time and are considered when a vacancy occurs, but it is not the practice to advertise these vacancies.

Committals to Prison (Young Persons)

asked how many persons of each sex under the age of twenty-one were last year committed to prison in England, and how many under the same age were committed to Borstal institutions?

The returns for 1910–11, the last year for which the figures are as yet complete, show that the number of persons under twenty-one committed to prison were: Males, 10,412; females, 1,165. The number of persons committed to Borstal institutions were: Males, 495; females, 35. Of course, the great majority of those sent to prison were committed on summary conviction, and were not therefore eligible for Borstal institutions.

Established Church in Wales (Endowments)

asked the Home Secretary what is the total value of the endowments of the Established Church in Wales; and what part thereof is derived from Grants made by Parliament and what part is due to private beneficence?

The total income of the Church in Wales from endowments amounted in 1906 to £260,000 net. The income from Parliamentary Grants was £5,800 net. It is impossible to say .what part of the income is due to private beneficence prior to 1662, but since that date the total amount is approximately £18,500 net.

Do these figures, the £260,000, include the £28,000 and the £3,000 from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Queen Anne's Bounty Commissioners respectively, which were referred to by the Home Secretary in his opening speech in respect to capital account?

My impression is, if I may answer the question, that the £260,000 does not include the two sums of £28,000 and £3,000, but perhaps the Noble Lord will put a question down on the subject.

Suffragist Prosecutions (Miss Christabel Pankhurst)

asked the Home Secretary whether he has any official information to the effect that Miss Christabel Pankhurst is in the United States, having been seen and recognised by one to whom she was personally known; and, if so, what action, if any, do the Government propose to take?

It is a general rule, necessary for obvious reasons in the public interest, not to state what action the police have taken or propose to take for the execution of warrants of arrest against persons charged with criminal offences. The Secretary of State cannot make any exception to this rule in the case of Miss Christabel Pankhurst.

Nottingham By-Election (Royal Arms)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that a communication of official style and appearance, adorned with the Royal Arms but bearing the name of no printer or publisher, was circulated to all licence-holders at the recent by-election in Nottingham; and whether he can and will take any and, if so, what steps to prevent the use of the Royal Arms on such occasions?

Before the question is answered may I ask is the hon. Member aware of any communication with a warming pan on the subject?

In reply to the question on the Paper, the Secretary of State has obtained from the local police a copy of the paper referred to by the hon. Member. The use of the Royal Arms on an electioneering leaflet was very improper, but, in the absence of information as to the persons responsible, my right hon. Friend can take no action. Further inquiry will, however, be made as to the printer.

Land Transfer Department (Nominations)

asked the Attorney-General who it is that has the nomination to the Lord Chancellor of the clerks and mappists in the Land Transfer Department either of the permanent staff or of the temporary men; and what are the salaries of the two clerks and three assistant clerks appointed during 1910 and 1911 to the permanent staff?

No person has the nomination to the Lord Chancellor of the clerks and mappists, whether permanent or temporary, in the Land Transfer Department, who are appointed by the Lord Chancellor. The salaries asked for are as follows:—One second-class clerk, £250, rising by £15 per annum to £400; one third-class clerk, £100, rising by £10 per annum to £200; three assistant clerks (abstractors), £55, rising by £0 per annum to £85; afterwards, by £7 10s. per annum to £150.

Are we to understand that the Lord Chancellor knows the personal merits of these clerks?

Magistrates (Glamorganshire Appointments)

asked if the Attorney-General could explain the continued delay in setting up an advisory committee for the appointment of magistrates for Glamorganshire; and if he will take steps to expedite the appointment of such a committee?

I will communicate with the Lord Chancellor in reference to the reason of the delay. I can, however, state that the matter is being dealt with and is approaching completion.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for the past two years in one district in my Constituency there has been a delay in appointing a justice of the peace because the Lord Chancellor did not care to appoint him?

Church of England Schools (Wales)

asked the President of the Board of Education how many Church of England elementary schools in Wales have been closed and how many transferred to the local authorities during the period from 1st April, 1903, to the present time; and how many new council or provided elementary schools and how many new Church of England schools have been opened and recognised in Wales in the same period?

During the period referred to forty-nine Church of England schools were closed and forty were transferred to local education authorities. Two hundred and fourteen new provided schools were opened and recognised, twenty-eight of which replaced existing provided schools. Two new Church of England schools were opened and recognised during the same period.

Dismissal of School Teacher (York)

asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the action, of the managers of a Church of England school at York, who appointed at one meeting a Nonconformist as teacher, and when that teacher's appointment had been confirmed by the local authority found that the teacher was a Nonconformist, and passed at a subsequent meeting a resolution rescinding the appointment; whether he is aware that the local authority now refuses to dismiss the teacher; and whether he will take immediate action in this and similar cases to protect teachers from treatment of this kind on account of their religious opinions?

The facts in the case to which the hon. Member refers are as follows. At a meeting of the managers on 20th December last a candidate was appointed as assistant teacher at the Heworth Church of England school. The validity of the appointment was questioned on the ground of irregularity in the notices convening the meeting. A further meeting was held on 28th December, at, which another candidate was appointed. A copy of the minutes of the two meetings was sent to the local education authority. On 16th March the education committee approved the earlier appointment and withdrew the supply teacher at the school. As neither teacher had begun work on the 2nd April the Board of Education called the attention of the managers and the local authority to the necessity of providing the school with adequate staff, and from a newspaper report, dated 4th April, I understand that the dispute has been settled by the acceptance of the local education authority's decision, but I have no official information to this effect. I have no power to take action as suggested in the last paragraph of the question.

Small Landholders (Scotland) Act

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether forms of applications for small holdings under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act are now available for the use of those desiring to obtain small holdings; if not, when he expects that these forms will be available; and at what place or places they will be obtainable in Morayshire and Nairnshire?

Forms of applications for small holdings under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act are now available, and can be obtained from the Secretary to the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, 29r St. Andrew Square, Edinburgh. Intimations to this effect have already been advertised in various Scottish newspapers. As these forms can be obtained by writing to that address, there does not seem to be any need of establishing local centres for supplying them.

Will the right hon. Gentleman have these advertisements inserted in the papers in Morayshire and Nairnshire?

I cannot say whether the advertisement appeared in all the local papers, but it certainly has appeared in some of the important Scottish papers.

Devon and Cornwall Sea Fisheries Committee

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether any decision has been arrived at as to a Grant of £10,000 which has been applied for by the Devon and Cornwall Sea Fisheries Committee to assist the fishermen in those counties to provide auxiliary motor power for their boats?

Will the hon. Member endeavour to expedite matters, as there is a natural desire in that part of the world to know what is going to be arranged?

I am aware of the importance of it, but the matter is awaiting a legal decision.

Budget (Estimated Surplus)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state the average estimated surplus for which he and his predecessors have allowed during the past ten years when introducing the Budget for the forthcoming financial year?

The average balance which has been provided in the Budgets for the ten years from 1903–4 to 1912–13 inclusive is £390,000.

Lundy Isle

asked in what financial position are the owner and occupiers in the island of Lundy, in the Bristol Channel; whether the land will be valued under the provisions of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910; and whether, in the event of a sale of the island, Increment Duty would be payable?

A person residing in the island of Lundy is subject to the general fiscal arrangements of the United Kingdom. It is therefore proposed to make a valuation for the purposes of Part I. of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, and to levy such duty as may become chargeable under the provisions of the Act.

Is it not a fact that a valuer presented himself on this island, and was politely requested to leave at once?

Income Tax (Persons living Abroad)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state whether the Inland Revenue authorities have had under consideration the desirability of rescinding the rule by which persons living abroad are not allowed for that reason any return of Income Tax which otherwise would be allowed them, although such persons are not in the receipt of any income arising in the country in which they reside, or any such income as would disentitle them to a return of duty?

The rule to which the hon. Member refers was not made by the Board of Inland Revenue, but was enacted by Section 71 (1) of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910. I do not consider it desirable that the provisions of the Section should be rescinded.

Seeing that many people do live abroad because they are too poor to live at home, I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he cannot reconsider his decision?

There is no part of Europe, at any rate; where they can live cheaper than in the British Isles.

Loss of Steamship "Titanic."

Safety Regulations

asked the President of the Board of Trade when the existing rules prescribing the provision to be made for the safety of passengers and crews on foreign-going and other vessels were last revised; and whether he would cause an immediate and complete inquiry to be made into the whole subject of their adequacy, having in view the changes which had taken place in recent years in shipbuilding design?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to a similar question yesterday in regard to the Regulations, of which I am sending him a copy. Their revision, as the House is aware, is now the subject of inquiry.

In the case of this inquiry, will the right hon. Gentleman call special attention to the provision of motor lifeboats?

Life-Saving Apparatus

asked whether, in future, Board of Trade officials would pass life-saving apparatus on passenger ships by having them all opened out on deck, and not merely by counting them, as was frequently done?

I am not quite clear as to the kind of life-saving apparatus which the hon. Member has in mind. If he will be so good as to communicate with me on the subject, I shall be happy to consider his suggestion.

Tonnage Act

asked whether, in the inquiry as to the loss of the "Titanic," recent legislation, like the Tonnage Act, would be taken into account, seeing that many naval authorities held that it had penalised a sound system and placed a premium on relative insecurity?

I do not understand how the Merchant Shipping Act of 1907, if that is the Tonnage Act alluded to, which dealt with the deduction of the space occupied by propelling power in ascertaining the tonnage of a ship, can have had the effect which the hon. Member appears to attribute to it. If he would be good enough to communicate with me on the matter, I will undertake to consider any criticism of the character indicated in his question.

Survey or Passenger Steamers

asked whether any single passenger ship at the present time had been surveyed by a practical shipwright surveyor who had served his apprenticeship to shipbuilding or ship repairing?

The survey of passenger steamers includes not only the inspection of the hull and equipments, but also the inspection of the boilers and machinery. The survey is therefore, as a rule, carried out by an engineer and ship surveyor. Many passenger steamers are, in addition, surveyed for freeboard by a ship surveyor, who has served his apprenticeship to ship-building and repairing.

Arising out of that reply, is it a fact that the surveyor who surveyed the "Titanic" at Belfast, for the "Survey for Passenger Certificate," and for the surveying for "Freeboard," and who is entirely responsible for the whole construction, fittings, and equipment of this monster vessel, never served any apprenticeship to, or was practically engaged upon, the con- struction or repair of the hull of iron or steel vessels in any shipyard whatever, before entering the services of the Board of Trade?

Board of Trade Advisory Committee

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he would now dispense with the services of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee on which he relied for guidance concerning the safety of passengers and crew on British ships and other similar questions, and if he would substitute in its place a committee of suitable persons who were Members of the House of Commons and who would therefore be under the necessity of explaining before the public their reasons for giving advice regarding life-saving appliances, etc., such as that which was partially responsible for the loss of life among the passengers and crew of the steamship "Titanic"?

I do not think that the course suggested would be to the public advantage.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many of the twenty-two members of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee that reported to the Board of Trade on the question of the revision of life-saving appliances may be said to represent the passengers or general public, as distinct from shipowners and others whose business is to make a profit out of the conveyance of passengers and cargo?

As I have already pointed out to the House, under the Merchant Shipping Act the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee must be composed of persons possessing expert knowledge, or representing various maritime interests, but I would remind the hon. Member that all these interests, and especially the underwriters, are intimately concerned with the safety of vessels.

Could the right hon. Gentleman see his way to put some one on the Committee who will represent the poor passengers, who sometimes get. drowned?

Wireless Telegraphy

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will instruct the Commissioner appointed to inquire into the loss of the "Titanic," or the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee, to inquire into the pay, efficiency, and conditions of service of wireless operators on British ships at sea, with the object of ensuring the immediate receipt of all messages sent to ships at sea and a more expeditious and accurate dispatch of messages from ships at sea?

I have no power to give instructions to the Court of Inquiry; but the question of wireless telegraphy will be among those which the Board of Trade counsel will submit to the Court.

Is the righthon. Gentleman aware that some of these wireless operators are only paid 18s. per week, that they have no regular hours of employment, and that they are in fact their own masters as to whether or not they send telegrams?

Bills Presented

Local Authorities (Advertisement) Bill

"To empower local authorities in England and Wales to levy a rate for advertising the district." Presented by Mr. HELME; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 8th May, and to be printed. [Bill 177.]

Aliens Bill

"To amend the Aliens Act, 1905." Presented by Mr. O'Grady; supported by Mr. Keir Hardie, Mr. Crooks, Mr. Parker, Mr. Walters, Mr. Fenwick, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. William Thorne, and Mr. Hodge; to be read a second time upon Thursday next, and to be printed. [Bill 178.]

Amalgamation of Trade Unions Bill

"To amend the provisions of the Trade Union Act Amendment Act, 1876, in relation to the Amalgamation of Trade Unions." Presented by Mr. O'Grady; supported by Mr. William Thorne, Mr. Atherley-Jones, Mr. Arthur Henderson, Hr. John Ward, Mr. Gill, and Mr. Gold-stone; to be read a second time upon Thursday next, and to be printed. [Bill 179.]

Business of the House (Supply)

Ordered, "That the Proceedings on the Motion for leave to bring in the Established Church (Wales) Bill and on the Con- sideration of the Lords Amendments to the Army (Annual) Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."— [The Prime Minister.]

Established Church (Wales) Bill

Order read for resuming Debate on Question [ 23rd April ], "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to terminate the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and to make provision in respect of the Temporalities thereof, and for other purposes in connection with the matters aforesaid."—[ Mr. McKenna. ]

Question again proposed. Debate resumed.

This is the second Bill brought in by the Government under the conditions of the Parliament Act, and we are met here to discuss a Bill which, in my judgment, has never been before the country, but which, if the Government carry out their programme, will be passed into law behind the backs of the people, and without the people ever having a chance of pronouncing a verdict upon it. I need hardly say that under those conditions we intend on this side to fight this Bill to the utmost of our ability, and we are determined, if we can, to force it before the people before it becomes law. We are convinced, as the Bishop of Birmingham—who is a strong Liberal—said only yesterday, as reported in the papers to-day, that in some way or another this Bill will never get upon the Statute Book of this House. The Solicitor-General, in his speech the other night, told us that in his opinion the passing of this Bill was inevitable. I do not know why he thought it was inevitable, but as far as I could gather he based his theory largely upon a statement the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham made seventeen years ago. I am sure it is very pleasant to think that the Solicitor General has got such a good opinion of the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, and I hope he has on other matters besides this.

But seventeen years is a long time, and a very great deal has happened in the last seventeen years. In the first place, the Church has enormously progressed in Wales, and, in the second place, Nonconformity has gone back and is going back. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Hon. Members opposite say "No." Do they know that, taking their own figures, published in their own year-books, all the four leading Nonconformist sects in Wales prove my contention, and although those figures are not entirely accurate they are all underestimated? Taking their figures between the years 1905–8, they lost 26,000 full members, and in the same period the Church added 10,000 to her Easter communicants. That alone, I think, establishes the fact that in the last seventeen years and more there has been great progress on the part of the Church, and that Nonconformity is losing its hold in Wales. The fact is, I notice everywhere—I have done a good deal of speaking on this question in all parts of the country—the defence of the Church is stronger than it was last time, and the attack is weaker. I see everywhere a great loss of interest on the part of people in this attack on the Church in Wales, and I am not surprised. My right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Mr. Lyttelton), said last time that liberationism is really an exploded theory. First, it was part of the doctrine of laissez-faire . It was the religious counterpart of the economic doctrines of the Manchester School. Now the theory is that the State must take a part in most things. Why not in religion? The doctrine that you can separate the Church and State is losing force all the time. Let me give the Solicitor-General an example. He might have said seventeen years ago that Disestablishment was inevitable, or appeared to be, and he might have added that Disestablishment in Scotland appeared equally inevitable seventeen years ago.

I remember when I was first a Member of this House that in the Queen's Speech in 1893 there appeared not only Disestablishment for Wales, but also Disestablishment for Scotland. What has happened to that cry? It has entirely disappeared, and I am convinced, when we have defeated this Bill, we shall never hear again of any other attempt to Disestablish the Church in Wales. The Solicitor-General made another point. He emphasised very strongly that there were thirty-one Members out of thirty-four for Wales and Monmouthshire in this House in favour of this Bill. I will take leave to say that is no argument for this Bill, because this is not a Bill for Wales only; this is a Bill that profoundly affects England too. It affects England in two ways. In the first place, we know that this Bill is intended to lead up to a similar measure in England. It is to be the working model of what is to happen in England. Have we not a right in England to say whether we like the working model or not, or whether this thing is to happen which must lead to similar Disestablishment and Disendow-ment in England. Let me read to the House from the "Morning Leader," a paper, I believe, respected on the other side of the House, what a well-known member of the cocoa Press said the morning after the introduction of the Bill in 1909:— conclusive on the point, because this is a measure which ought to be submitted to England and Wales, and, if it were submitted to the electors of both countries, I have no doubt there would be a very large majority against the Bill. What is this argument about thirty-one Welsh Members? How did they get here? They got here by avoiding the question. Only nine of them mentioned it in their election addresses.

If it is eight, so much the better. There are five of them on the Treasury Bench. There is the Home Secretary (Mr. McKenna), the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Lloyd George), the Under-Secretary for the Home Office (Mr. Ellis Griffith)—

I did not issue an election address.

4.0 P.M.

That only makes the case stronger. It means that you accepted the general policy of the Government elsewhere, and the general policy elsewhere was the Parliament Bill, and was not the Disestablishment of the Welsh Church. They got here, I say, by avoiding the question. I am quite aware there has been a by-election in Wales since, at which the matter was mentioned. There was a by-election in the Carmarthen Boroughs last January. The hon. Member for the Carmarthen Boroughs (Mr. Llewelyn Williams) was given a legal appointment, one of his qualifications—I do not say his only qualification—being that he was supposed to have a safe seat. His opponent fought that by-election largely on the question of Welsh Disestablishment, and this is what the "South Wales Daily News," the Radical South Wales paper, said two days before the poll:— him. I am afraid if he fights the next election on this question we shall not have the pleasure of his company. I deny entirely therefore that this question was forcibly put before the Welsh people at the last election. I take up the point mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Denbigh (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) that two of the candidates who did not mention this matter in their election addresses did refer in general terms to religious equality.. What did they mean by religious equality V What I want to know is, did they mean by this Bill religious equality? Where is the religious equality in this Bill? You disestablish the Church; why do you not disestablish the chapels as well? They are established. [Cries of "No."] Yes, ever since the Toleration Act they have been established. Their position, their funds, are guaranteed by the State. They have advantages, and they have disadvantages. They cannot vary a trust deed without coming to this House. If the Wesleyan body, for instance, wished to alter the system of three years' service they would have to come to this House and get an Act of Parliament. They have advantages, too. They have one advantage that we do not possess. They can return Members to this House. Besides that, they have this very great advantage, which we share. Their places of worship are free from the payment of rates so long as they are used only for religious purposes. I think that particular condition is more honoured in the breach than in the observance, having regard to the many speeches the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes in tabernacles. But still I say, if you want to take away these advantages from one religious body, why do you not, in the name of religious equality, apply exactly the same principle to Nonconformist bodies? Or, take Disendowment. If you disendow the Church, on what principle can you refuse to disendow the chapels? Why not leave them 6s. 8d. in the. £. They have got large endowments. They are always trying to get more endowments, and they are perfectly right. They know the voluntary system cannot succeed, and I honour them for trying to get endowment.

Let me take the case of Nonconformist, endowment and show how this Bill would work in the name of religious equality-There is a parish in Cardiganshire—Llan-gunllo—in which there is a small piece of tithe, £6 a year. There is an endowment in the same parish of fifty-two guineas a year which is paid to the Nonconformist minister. The tenant of a particular farm, a Mr. Evans, is called upon every Sunday morning by the deacon of the chapel to pay a guinea towards the Nonconformist preacher for that Sunday. Well now, what will happen if this Bill passes? The parson will no longer get the £6 a year. I suppose the tithe will still be paid. That is a thing we want to know definitely from the Government, because they have some supporters who are supporting the Bill because they think they will not have to pay the tithe any more; but I may take it from the silence of the Government that the tithe will still be paid, though it will not all be paid to the parson. In the name of religious equality, however, the fifty-two guineas a year will still be paid to the Nonconformist minister. Then we are told that it is all going to be for our good, but I put it to the Government, if it is a good thing for the parson to lose £6 a year, it is surely a very much better thing for the Nonconformist minister to lose fifty-two guineas a year! I fail to see how the principle of religious equality is carried out in this matter. I have said the Nonconformists have endowments. I have given an example of one only, but they are trying to get more. Let me give an example taken from the newspapers only yesterday. There was a meeting of the Baptist Union, held at the Bloomsbury Chapel. A speech was made by Dr. Clifford, in seconding a resolution to establish a sustentation fund for Baptist ministers. This is what he said. I quote from the "Daily News ":—

Let me look for a moment or two at the Bill. So far as I could gather from the somewhat confused explanation of the Home Secretary, the Bill was very much the old Bill of 1895 and 1909, with some slight concessions. To listen to the Home Secretary making these concessions one would imagine that he was not a person taking anything away from the Church. It was rather the speech of a person distributing gifts—handing them out to the bishops and clergy. Really I wonder he did not say we should be better off under the Bill than now. It only remains for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that the Bill gives the Church 9d. for 4d., and I think the picture will be complete. Let us look at the proposals. The Home Secretary was very angry because we represented that this Bill would leave the Church only Is. 5½d. in the £ of her endowments after the life interest. He seemed to think that we had misrepresented the Bill. We had done nothing of the kind. That would have been the effect of the Bill brought in in 1895 and in 1909. We could not anticipate the tremendous generosity of the Government. We are very pleased with it, because it shows that the campaign we have carried on in the country has convinced people that the last Bill was the shabbiest proposal ever made, and the Government dare not go. on with their Is. 5|d. proposal. Now it is 6s. 8d. in the £ Then there is a most remarkable piece of finance. According to the Home Secretary, £62,000 a year is to come to the Church, representing the present value of the life interest. What did he mean? Did he mean that at the end of the forty years when, according to his computation, the present holders would disappear, there would still be £62,000 to the Church? What the Home Secretary suggested was that you should eat your cake and have it. The existing holders were to have the whole value for their lives, and at the end there would still be £62,000 a year. [Cries of " No."] If he did not mean that, what did he mean by adding £62,000 and bringing the total figure up to £149,000? He could only have intended to throw dust in the eyes of the people. It is a most extraordinary bit of finance. It is not even original. The credit for its invention lies with the Under-Secretary in a speech he made. some time ago at Anglesey. I did not pay much attention to the speech at the time. I only thought he was training for the Chancellor of the Exchequer-ship. That sort of finance will certainly land him there when the present holder of the office goes somewhere else. I really do think we require a little more explanation than that the money is to be handed over first for the life interest and then for the benefit of the Church.

The Bill in any case is hard enough on the Church. As the Bishop of St. David's points out in to-day's "Times," 220 parishes in Wales will be left with nothing a year of endowments, and seventy-five others will be left with less than 5s. a week. That is the very moderate and mild proposal the Government are putting before us, hoping in vain to get support from this side. I want to examine the arguments that are put forward on behalf of this Bill. When you come to examine them they boil down to two. The alien Church argument appears to have been abandoned altogether. That extraordinary fallacy no longer holds the field, at all events in this House. But there are two arguments they put forward. The first is the numerical argument, and the second the argument of national endowment. As to the numerical argument, we were told by the Home Secretary, as we have been told by the Under-Secretary, that the Church numbers less than a quarter of the people of Wales. The Under-Secretary went further, and, in a speech made some months ago at the Queen's Hall, said that the Church numbered less than one-fourth of the people. I venture to say this statement is pure guesswork. You have got nothing to go on. You refuse a. religious census. You will not have it, even though you know that before the Church was disestablished in Ireland there was a religious census in 1861. You knew exactly what the numbers were, namely, only one-tenth of the people. You have tried in the past amateur religious census in Wales. When I was much younger than I am now, and lived in Denbighshire, I remember that Mr. Thomas Gee, a great leader and a man I respect, thought he would try to find out exactly how matters stood. He said that on a certain Sunday in the middle of winter everybody who went to Church and chapel should be numbered. The day he fixed was rather well chosen. It was in the middle of the winter, when, according to his doctrine, the classes who alone went to Church would be likely to prefer their fireside. In addition to that, it happened to be by accident a Welsh Calvinistic Festival.

I cannot tell you. At all events, it was a special festival. The census was taken. What was the result? I cannot tell you, because Mr. Gee never published the figures. His friends never forgave him the great evil he had wrought for the cause of Welsh Disestablishment. But I say these figures are all guesswork. At all events, you might all guess the same. We have had Welsh Disestablishment based upon guesswork now for a good many years. I have looked up the old Debates, and this is what I find. The first Debate was in 1871. Then the late Mr. Justice Watkin Williams said the Church in Wales numbered only one-sixth. There was another Debate in 1886, when the late Mr. Dillwyn said we had then one-eighth. In 1891 there was another Debate. Mr. D. A. Thomas was then the authority. He has since become celebrated in other fields. I do not think he would like the principle of this Bill applied to coal mines. He said that we were one-sixth. Now we come to 1892. Two computations were made in that one Debate, one by the late Mr. Samuel Smith, who said that the Church were one-fourth, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was then in this House to put the average right, said in the same Debate that we are only one-tenth. I will read a short quotation from the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the House will then see the spirit of the speeches which were made in Wales—the sort of speeches which assisted the Chancellor of the Exchequer to his present eminent position. He said, on the 23rd February, 1892:—

"Here is a Church that came into "Wales with mailed warriors, whose missionaries were warriors, and it was imposed upon us by force of arms, and it is at the present moment buttressed up by police truncheons."

Does he still hold to that?

I am very glad to hear it. The right hon. Gentleman is going to speak this afternoon; perhaps he will explain how the Church, which was established in Wales in the second or third century after Christ—[HON. MEMBEBS: "Oh, oh !"]—you do not agree any more in your history than you do in your figures, because the Home Secretary himself said that the Church in Wales had had an independent existence before the Union with England, therefore he agreed with my view of Welsh history — [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—then I must leave it to the Welsh Members on the Front Bench to settle it among themselves. You never agree in your figures, but I will take your last edition of the figures—that is less than one-fourth. I will give you the benefit of the "less than" and take it at one-fourth. Do you not see that is a most damaging estimate to the Welsh people generally? What does it prove? That at least one-fourth of the Welsh people have no religion at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh ! "3 Then I will give you the actual estimates. The four chief Welsh sects, taking their own year-books, which, as I have said, do not give an underestimate, only claim this year 46 per cent, of the population, reckoning in all the adherents, men, women, children, babies in arms, and anybody that can be brought in. There are certain other small sects and the Roman Catholics, which the late Mr. Dillwyn estimated at 4 per cent. These, added to the 46 per cent., makes 50 per cent. If the Church has less than one-fourth, that represents about 25 per cent., or, altogether, a total of only 75 per cent, who are affected by the Christian religion in any way.

I have alluded to children. I have taken the children of all sects, and reckoned them all in. You cannot escape from it, that, on your reckoning, it is a most damaging blow to a people whom you say are a most religious people. All we actually know about figures is this: having no census, and not paying particular account to guesswork, we are thrown back upon the figures given by the Royal Commission, and the only thing that they prove is that the Church is without doubt by far the strongest religious body in the Principality, and that it is the only religious body that is making progress at the present time. Yet you select this very moment to try to give it this knock-down blow, I am not surprised. This is your only chance. Unless you Disestablish and Disendow the Church now you will never have another opportunity, because the Church will be too strong for you. I come to the national property argument. I must say I am rather surprised at that argument. All the great historians who have written on that subject—Stubbs, Freeman, the late Mr. Gladstone, and the late Lord Selborne—have all emphatically said that the Church property is not national property. Do we really suppose that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Under-Secretary for the Home Office, the hon. Member for Swansea Boroughs (Sir Brynmor-Jones), are really greater authorities than the authorities I have named 1 We had a new and most remarkable version of the national property argument advanced by the Home Secretary the other day. He said that whatever might be the case in England, there was no tithe in Wales before the twelfth century, and he told us that it was imposed then by force as a tax. Really for the Home Secretary to come here and dogmatise in that manner upon a matter of the greatest obscurity, a. matter so obscure that the Royal Commission who were specially told to investigate the subject refused to do so, because it was beyond their powers, is a most preposterous thing for any Minister of the Crown to do. I am not going to contend with him on the historical aspect, but I will just mention one point. The right hon. Gentleman quoted Giraldus Cambrensis, apparently to show that there was no tithe in Wales before the twelfth-century. I will quote another authority, the "Book of Llandav," which says:—

"Bishop Urban in 1119—"

perhaps the Home Secretary will recognise that that is very early in the twelfth century—

"complained in a letter to Pope Calixtus II. of the seizure of tithe from his Church and from all the clergy of his diocese."

That was in 1119, yet the tithe was only supposed to be imposed, according to the doctrine of this great historical authority, the Home Secretary, in the twelfth century. Does he mean to tell me it was imposed so rapidly, that by the year 1119 all the clergy had it, and that it was all taken away. They must have had an extra quick Parliament Act in those days.

What followed?

"and there are letters from Calixtus and Honorius II admonishing the lay plunderers to restore their spoil."

It is rather a pity that we have no. Calixtus and Honorius to-day. You would be very quickly admonished, and you would deserve it. Let us put aside this. antiquarian discussion, which, after all, has very little bearing upon the present problem. All I have to say about it is. this: that if any tithe was a tax in Wales, and if any tithe ought to be returned to national purposes—which is the doctrine of the Government—all tithes ought to be returned. You ought not to select and single out some particular tithe and return it; you ought to deal in the same way with all of it. The parochial tithe in Wales, which goes to the Welsh incumbents, amounts to £110,000 a year, but there is £39,000 a year which goes to lay impropriators. Why do you not appropriate that? That, if anything, is a tax which should go to national purposes. Why do you not appropriate that? I think I know the reason. It is simply because you want to rob the Church, and you do not want to do anything else. So long as the Church has not got it, you do not care who has got it. That is the explanation of the whole of this Bill; that is the explanation of the savage speech made by the Under-Secretary for the Home Office at the National Liberal Club, when he called our Church "the parasite of aristocracy," when he talked about " the banners of the dawn." I know what is inscribed upon those bannersenvy, malice, and hatred. That is the explanation of the extraordinary speech made by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Silvester Horne), who called our Church a pagan Church.

I have no desire to misrepresent the hon. Gentleman; I quite accept his explanation. I know he made an explanation at the time, but what did he say? He said this: he did not actually say the Church was a pagan Church, but he quoted a certain Canon of the Church—an obsolete Canon—and said that was a pagan Canon. If the object of that was not to suggest that the Church was a pagan Church, what did he mean? [HON. MEMBEES: "Withdraw."] I am not going to withdraw anything. We saw the same spirit about a year ago at a meeting reported in the Welsh edition of the "Manchester Guardian," a meeting presided over by the Reverend Evan Jones, who was, or is, the Moderator of the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists. In defence of the Bill, he said: of the Solicitor-General. He argued that because in old days there was only one religious community, and that now there are many, therefore the old endowments which were given to one body ought to he taken away now because there are other religious competing bodies in the field. I cannot quite follow the argument. Everyone, no doubt, has a right to dissent from any Church or religious body he chooses, but he has no right to walk off with part of the endowment of the body from which he dissents. The first hospital built in London was St. Bartholomew's. For some years it was the only hospital in London. On the principle of the Solicitor-General it might be right now to take away the old endowments of St. Bartholomew's and distribute them amongst the other hospitals, because when they were given St. Bartholomew's was the only hospital.

I will carry the argument a little further. It is not a case of distributing the money amongst the other hospitals or amongst the other Churches. There is no suggestion of concurrent endowments. The argument of the Solicitor-General, if it is good, would be an argument for concurrent endowments, but it is no argument for taking the money away from the Church and giving it, not to other religious purposes but to Welsh universities, libraries, museums, and any other purposes which may happen to commend themselves to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. MeKenna). Of course I fully admit that this is not private property. It is corporate property. It is of the nature of public trust property. And I fully admit that there are occasions when the State has a perfect right to deal with trust property. I could not deny that for one reason particularly, that for five years I represented that not very popular body the Charity Commissioners, and, of course, that was our particular duty. But the conditions under which trust property might be varied were very closely laid down. They were three: The first was to show either that the money is being misspent or misappropriated. Can anyone suggest that the property of the Church in Wales is being misspent or misappropriated? There is no religious body in the world which spends its money to better advantage and does better work with it than the Church in Wales does at present. Then you might vary a trust if the original object of the charity disappeared. There was the celebrated case of the Barbary Corsairs. A large amount of money was left to relieve the families of people who were seized by the Barbary Corsairs. When the French Government occupied Algeria the Barbary Corsairs disappeared. The charity failed, and the Commissioners were perfectly right to divert the money. But can anyone say that the object of the Church in Wales has failed? Certainly not. Thirdly, you might divert money if at could be shown that the income had outgrown the uses to which it was to be put. Can anyone say that is the case of the Church in Wales? The Church in Wales is the poorest part of the Church of England. A large number of the clergy of the Church in Wales do not get a decent living wage at present.

Why does not the Church in Wales make an attempt to equalise the money?

That might be a very good argument for a Redistribution of Funds Bill, but it is no argument for this Bill. Besides, if you carry this Bill first there will be nothing to divide. No one can pretend that the third condition is fulfilled under which you might properly divert the money, namely, that the income had outgrown the needs of the Church. When money was diverted by the Charity Commissioners it had to be done in accordance with the doctrines of cy près . The doctrine of cy près was that you must get as close to the original intention as you could, and no one can pretend that the secularisation of the funds of the Church is getting close to the original intentions of the founders. They gave the money for the service of God, and you are taking it away for the service of man. We intend to fight this Bill Clause by Clause and line by line. We regard it as the meanest and shabbiest Bill ever brought into the House, except the last one, and it is very nearly as shabby as that. We believe the Bill has never been before the people of the country. We believe you are going to pass it by a trick behind the backs of the people. We believe it is founded on nothing but the bitterest and narrowest sectarian spite and envy, and for these reasons we will fight the Bill, and we are confident that we shall win.

The hon. Gentleman is, I believe, a Welshman. His countrymen, by majorities which are unparalleled in political history, have at least at a dozen General Elections put forward a demand for redress. The hon. Gentleman brings the charge against his countrymen that they are animated by petty spite, malice, and all uncharitableness. He has lived amongst them. He has sought their suffrages. He sought the suffrage of his own neighbours who knew him best. I hope that the memory of what befell him on that occasion had nothing to do with the animus he has displayed against men of his own flesh and blood. It is very easy to sneer at a small nationality, but I think it would have been more decent if the hon. Gentleman had left it to others to malign his race. He has criticised the figures which we have advanced from time to time to indicate the relative position of the Church and Nonconformity in Wales. He said, "one said it was a sixth, another said it was a tenth, and another said it was a fourth." I listened for some time to find out what his figure was but it never came.

The hon. Gentleman who has been investigating the subject for over twenty years, is not prepared to submit his figures. One thing I do recollect. About twenty years ago, when this question came up before, the hon. Gentleman used exactly the same words as he did to-day. He said then, "Why are you pressing this now? You are pressing it because the Church is a growing Church and Nonconformity is waning and dwindling, and you know perfectly well that in a very short time the Church will have recovered its ancient position, and unless you disestablish it now you will never be able to do it." That was twenty years ago. What has happened since then? We have had at least half a dozen General Elections, and at every General Election you have had overwhelming majorities returned. [An HON. MEMBER: "In 1895? "] Yes, in 1895 it was three to one. When has there ever been a majority of three to one for any Parliament? And had there been does anyone imagine that the House of Commons would ever have refused their demands? In six successive General Elections since then there has been no change at all in the demand which has been put forward. I know it is very difficult to discuss a subject of this kind without introducing friction. I have taken part in a good many discussions about sectarian matters and undoubtedly they generally lead to a good deal of friction, and I shall do my very best to avoid any complaint, if I can, right up to the end. I should like to ask the House to examine the demands which have been put forward. First of all, you have had the demand constantly put forward for forty years by the people of Wales in reference to the adjustment of their own spiritual affairs. Whatever changes there have been in politics in this country they have never influenced the demand of Wales. There has been no change, there has been no abatement and it has been put forward consistently, and the first thing I put to the House of Commons is that when the most ancient nation in this island, and a perfectly loyal nation, puts forward regularly a demand to the highest tribunal in the land, it is entitled to a fair, it is entitled to an impartial, and it is entitled to a respectful hearing of the claims put forward. After all, this is the highest court of justice in the land.

If it does not I hope it will be after hearing what I have to say to it. It is the High Court of Parliament. It is true we are only 5 per cent. of the representatives of this Parliament, but I am perfectly certain that will not weigh with the House of Commons when it comes to adjudicate upon the case we have to put forward. That case is that the present arrangement, which is imposed upon us from outside, in reference to our own religious and spiritual affairs is in itself a wrong and an injustice to the people of the country we belong to. The hon. Gentleman will not deny, nor will any of his Friends, that whatever the figures may be, the Church in Wales represents a very considerable minority of the nation. Any other proposition will invovle this as a corollary, that a number of Church people are so convinced as to the justice of Disestablishment that they vote for it. The hon. Gentleman says: "Wait a short time; the Church is growing, and Nonconformity is dwindling." I have always heard that since I came to the House. I heard it from Lord Randolph Churchill on those benches in 1895. He said:—

"The Church in Wales is almost half the population now. In a very short time, it will be a majority."

The proportions have not practically changed.

Well, I am only taking the figures of the Royal Commission. I am taking the investigation by the Royal Commission on which the Noble Lord himself sat.

If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the Report, he will see it is stated that the figures cannot be depended upon as to the voluntary denominations.

My own recollection is—the Noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—Lord Justice Vaughan Williams said they were generally accurate and could be depended upon. That does not quite bear out the case as put by the Noble Lord. At any rate, I do not think it will be denied that Nonconformists are in a very considerable majority in the Principality, and that there is no real, substantial, or material alteration in the character of those figures during the last twenty or thirty years. Very well, what is the demand put forward t The Archbishop of Canterbury, when he spoke at Swansea at the Church Congress, used words which I thought at the time were very remarkable, and which have a bearing on the contention I am putting forward. I will quote them to the House. He was dealing with the question of the demand being put forward by an overwhelming majority of representatives for the Disestablishment of the Church. This is what he said:—

"We hear another argument which most of us, I think, when we try to look at it quite honestly must admit to be very difficult to meet. We believe in this, country in the representative system. We believe in Parliamentary votes. How can you contravene Parliamentary votes which were given, or are waiting to be giver., by those who at present represent the constituencies in Wales? I fully admit that difficulty, but the facts need to be examined in detail. If we can show that on a distinct issue, definitely submitted to the country as a whole—if we can show that there was not only a preponderance, an overwhelming preponderance, of the votes of members, but of the votes of the voters, on such occasions have been repeatedly given, and given by well-informed men, we should have reason to pause and think seriously of the action we should take thereupon."

That is exactly the position we put to the House of Commons. We say this is a. demand put forward, not by Welsh Members, but by the vast majority of the Welsh people at election after election—by people who have considered the problem for at least fifty years. According to the: Archbishop, that is the demand he finds it difficult to answer if he were convinced that the people really mean this.

The hon. Gentleman says if he were convinced that an overwhelming majority of the Welsh people really wanted Welsh Disestablishment his attitude would be a different one.

I am dealing with Disestablishment for the moment. That is a very important admission by the hon. Member. I think that is a very fair position to take. Will the hon. Gentleman tell me by what process under the Constitution we in Wales can express our opinion more explicitly than we have done?

The hon. Gentleman carries it a bit further. Does he say that if there was a special means of ascertaining the opinion of the people of Wales on this subject, and if it was made clear by that method that they really wanted Disestablishment, then he will abide by that result?

The right hon. Gentleman does not quite understand what I mean. If there was a Referendum, I am perfectly convinced that the Welsh people would not be in favour of what is now proposed.

Will the Government afford an opportunity of testing this matter by Referendum?

I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has intervened, because he does so with a little more authority than the hon. Member—how much more I do not know. I am asking in the first place whether he is prepared to accept the decision of the Welsh people ascertained upon this particular question of the Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Church?

Our position is that we were elected by an overwhelming majority to demand it. We are perfectly satisfied with our mandate.

The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that he is entitled to put these questions to the Opposition. We are not the Government. If the Government will bring in a. Bill for a Referendum on this subject, I will at least consider it.

We had our Referendum at the last General Election —not merely at the last General Election, but at every General Election for forty years. [An. HON. MEMBER: "What about Free Trade?"! Really you must allow me to answer one question at a time. Free Trade was a question that arose for the first time in 1895, but we have been voting on Disestablishment since 1868. Does any one in his senses imagine that the Welsh people have gone back on this demand? Does anyone imagine that they would return representatives to Parliament after Parliament demanding Disestablishment if they did not want it? Not only that, but everyone knows that, excepting in one or two instances where candidates have managed to struggle in by a majority-of nine or thereabout, no candidate had a chance when appearing before the electors unless he was in favour of Disestablishment. By every process of the Constitution in this country the people have made it perfectly clear that they are asking this: measure of redress, and I think the Archbishop of Canterbury is bound by the words he used on that occasion. I do not see what else you can do unless you set up a provisional government. I want first of all to show that it is a demand which has been put forward consistently by the people of Wales for thirty or forty years, and that therefore they are asking for a fair hearing. Where does the demand spring from? The Noble Lord, who has now a supporter in the hon. Member for Denbigh (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), says it all comes from sectarian envy. The Noble Lord and his colleagues have endeavoured to do what Mr. Burke advised all wise men not to attempt, and that is to draw an indictment against a nation. After all, the demand comes from three-fourths of the people of Wales.

It comes, at any rate, from two to one of the people of Wales. At every Election since 1868 they have sent representatives to Parliament to ask for it and vote for it. What is the use of saying that they do not demand it? Why do they demand it? Because they are firmly convinced of the injustice of the present position. The Noble Lord challenged a letter I wrote the other day in which I said:—

"Surely a nation is entitled to a determining voice in the settlement of its own national religion."

One thing, at any rate, they have a right to determine is the arrangement made for their own spiritual welfare. I am surprised that the Noble Lord should have challenged that position. Can you name any self-respecting nation in the world whose national religion is the religion of the minority of professed Christians except Wales? England would not tolerate it for a single General Election. Even a by-election would settle it. Can you imagine England having a national Church representing emphatically a pronounced minority of the people, and the English people by two to one sending representatives to Parliament for forty years to demand a change, and having that Church imposed upon them, not by English votes, but by the votes of Welshmen, Irishmen, and Scotchmen? They would not have tolerated it for a single hour. Wales has always been loyal. It is the only country in the United Kingdom—it is the only country in the Empire—it is the only country in the civilised world where these conditions prevail.

Can the Noble Lord name one? He had better smile; that is about all he can do. Whether we want a national Church at all for our spiritual interests is our own concern. Whether it is essential that we should pick upon one of the five denominations there is our concern. Which one out of the five is best suited to their spiritual and religious needs—which one is the most true exponent of the religious life of Wales— who can answer that question except Welshmen themselves1? It is a matter which concerns us alone, and we alone shall be called to account.

Certainly. I mean Disestablishment. I am not dealing with Disendowment now. The question of what is the best method of dealing with our own spiritual concerns is a matter for us alone.

We are only responsible. If the arrangement is a bad one, we alone suffer. If the arrangement is a bad one, we alone shall be called to account. No nation or individual, however powerful, has the right to dictate to any other nation, or any other individual, with regard to their spiritual wants. Of our five great religious de nominations in Wales four of them are fairly equal in numbers. The Church claims certainly a larger number of communicants than any other denomination. I am not concerned for the purpose of this argument to challenge this proposition, but there is not very much difference in the claim between them and the Calvinistic Methodists and the Congregationalists, and perhaps they have a little more than the Baptists. But why out of the five should the Church of England be chosen to be the national exponent of religion in the Principality? Let the House of Commons, as I am sure they will, treat this case fairly and take that part of the question into account. You cannot altogether dismiss these things as if they were past and gone and had no reference to the argument at all. We are dealing not with the life of individuals, but with the life of the nation. For two hundred years the present establishment of religion, the reformed religion, had the sole charge of spiritual life in Wales. There were very few Nonconformist Churches. The Established Church had the whole responsibility and practically the whole opportunity. What use did they make of it? I do not want to use any language to hurt any Churchman, but I think I shall carry every Churchman with me in this, that it grossly betrayed its trust. There is no doubt about that. It utterly neglected its high ideal.

There were occasional missionaries like Griffith Jones, who was a great Churchman, and the great Bishop Morgan, whose names are even now enshrined in Nonconformists' hearts, but those were rare. Take the Church as a whole. Its history is written in the eloquent words of one of its sanest preachers, Bishop Pritchard, of Dolgelly. He gives us a perfectly horrible account of the condition of religion under the sole charge of his own Church in the Principality. That was not in the eighteenth century, when there were special political reasons, but in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. As an hon. Friend reminds me, it was from 1620 to 1640, and that was before the date of the Conference. It is not to be supposed that it was merely a temporary lapse on the part of the Church for political reasons, and that it was a Hanoverian policy, because we were Jacobites—we were Jacobites in those days, whatever we are now. Because we were Jacobites it was the Hanoverian policy to give us English bishops who did not know our tongue, and the result undoubtedly was a gross neglect of the people for at least 100 years, and the population were allowed to lapse into utter Paganism, for that reason, because there was no spiritual provision made by the Church at all. If hon. Members would only take the trouble to look up the seventeenth century, before this question ever arose, they will find that that is so. There are five denominations in Wales. Four out of the five denominations constitute the great Nonconformist body which picked Wales out of the very slough of perdition. I do not believe that anyone can challenge that. Still, when you come to impose upon us a national Church, an official national exponent of our religious life, and say to us, "You must take the Church which for over 200 years betrayed your trust, and must place in a position of official inferiority the religious faiths that have redeemed your native land"—that is our complaint—we say it is unfair. I am not going to dwell further upon this except to this extent. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lyttelton) in his very eloquent and very fair speech the other day, referred to some of our great religious leaders, and said very truly that they were all ornaments of the Church of England. Griffith Jones especially was one of the most remarkable men ever produced. He was a clergyman and lived and died in the Church of England, and was a very devout son of the Church. Harold Harris was a clergyman of the Church of England, and Daniel Rowland—all very great men; but what happened to them?

Every effort made by these great men to improve the condition into which our race had been sunk by the neglect of the clergy in Wales was retarded and thwarted by persecution, indolence, and insolence. Griffith Jones was lampooned by his own brother priests in the Church in the cruellest fashion. He was persecuted up to the end, and there was very little help or assistance from them. Now that is the system. The fact is we were driven out of the Church of England by two centuries of cruel neglect, and when the hon. Gentleman and others begin to talk about our coming back, that is not the history of nations. Nations quit Churches very reluctantly. They put up with a great deal of neglect and a great deal of corruption, and a great deal of what is-worse, and they are very loth to-depart from an ancient faith. But once they leave it they do not come back. That is not the history of any country. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is happening now—Scotland."] Certainly not in Scotland; and you would have to go through the same process with Nonconformity again. If Nonconformity for two centuries neglected its functions I do not know what would happen, but as long as it discharges its functions as it is doing— and I do not think that any fair-minded Churchman will deny that—according to its lights and with the resources at its command, and is showing devotion and self-sacrifice which will challenge comparison with that of any other Church in the world, they will not depart. May I put another point to the House? I refrain, as far as I can, from saying a single word about the doctrine of any Church. The Anglican Church never really seized hold of the Welsh people, and I think the reasons were very obvious. The two centuries of neglect and the blackest indifference were very largely attributable to the fact that although the Church is suitable to the genius of the Anglo-Saxon race it is not suitable to a Celtic race. You may make a Celt in Ireland a devout Catholic, and you may, as in Scotland and in Wales, make him a strong and ultra-Protestant. You may make him, as in parts of France, even a Free Thinker. But, unless I am mistaken—and I think an impartial investigation will show that I am not—the very intensity and the very zeal and fervour and enthusiasm of his nature militates against the success of the Church framed upon the basis of the Anglican Church and that is really the reason why, in my judgment, it is not merely the neglect of bishops, it is not merely the fact that you had a good deal of corruption, but it is the fact that it is not suited to the Celtic temperament.

Whatever happens in Wales, it will not go back. We might depart from Nonconformity. I would not like to think so, but I do not know what the future religion in Wales may be. It is going through a very great change at the present moment. There has been a great revolution in the religious thought of Wales, such a revolution as I think no part of the world can show. The preaching to-day is totally different in character from the preaching to which I was accustomed in my youth. The revolution is incredible in its magnitude, but one thing I am certain of—and very man who understands the Celtic nature will bear me out—is that it will never go back. Now let us deal with those facts. What every honest Churchman wants is this. The Noble Lord made a very eloquent appeal at the end of his speech. He talked about the dangers in front of us, the dangers to faith, the great challenge to faith with which we are confronted. I agree. But is not it important, when a nation is confronted with these grave new challenging problems which undermine faith, that it should have as its leader a religion which appeals to its particular nature, which absorbs its temperament? That is why Nonconformity really lives in Wales, and why the Church, in spite of the most colossal efforts put forward during the last thirty or forty years—and they have been colossal—has never succceeded in recapturing the confidence of the Welsh people. That is the one thing I should like to say in concluding now this part of the argument. If you come to consider the relative position of Nonconformity and the Church in Wales, numbers alone will not determine it. Any man who has lived in Wales—and I see several here below me —will realise that. The predominancy of Nonconformity is not merely numerical. It really fashions the whole character of religious services there. All the great preachers in Wales are Nonconformists, with the exception of Dean Howell; everyone of the great preachers whose names are household words there are Nonconformists. You cannot go into a peasant's house or a shepherd's cottage and mention them without their telling you all about it. 'Go to find out those names, the names that are revered, our fathers of the Church, the people who built Wales as it is to-day, and made its religious, spiritual, and intellectual life, and you will find that all those great names are the names of Nonconformists. That is why Nonconformity has done so much more than the Church, even with all its power, all its wealth, and with all its great organisations and all its services, could do.

Every religious revival—and religious revivals come now and again to pick up a nation from the torpor and the apathy into which all sink—all come from Nonconformists. You have the great Sunday School organisation, which is the greatest religious organisation I know of for educational purposes in this country, because you have in Wales a teaching Sunday School organisation which you have not got in this country. The child enters the school with first lisping accent of his Welsh tongue, and the recollection of the school is never lost until the day he is carried to his long home. Young, old, and middle-aged, all, as children, have gone through the Sunday Schools of Wales. That great organisation, which has been brought to a state of perfection which is almost incredible, is the work of Nonconformists. The Church has followed, has followed admirably and with effect, but it has not the organisation of Nonconformity, an organisation more or less peculiar to the Welsh people. The Archbishop of Canterbury recently paid a visit to my Constituency—I am very glad he went there—and there was a very great crowd to meet him. He addressed a meeting held in the largest hall in the whole of Wales. It was filled. But he was the Archbishop of Canterbury; he was a very distinguished man, he was the head of one of the greatest Churches in the world; he had behind him the whole of the Church organisation. I went there last autumn and attended a meeting held in the same building. There were present four or five preachers whose names are not heard of here, and perhaps are not known to hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite. The place was crowded by people who came to listen to these five men, whose names have not travelled outside the Principality, except in one instance. They were the preachers of that Nonconformity which has introduced religious life into the nation. When you measure the relative greatness of Nonconformists and the Church—and this is important when we come to deal with what is going to be our national faith —as the lead in England is with the Church, the lead in Wales is distinctly the lead of Nonconformity.

Is that immaterial, when you come to consider what Church is to be established in Wales and what Church is not? The wrong we feel is this: we feel that in this case really it is England that denies justice, that is imposing upon us, as the national exponent of our spiritual life, not the Church of our choice, not the Church that has been the source of the spiritual life of the nation, not the Church which has been the means of rescuing us from degradation, but their own Church, the Church that suits them and not us, the Church which is the exponent of their view of spiritual life, of their attitude of mind, of their temperament, and not of ours. What greater wrong can you inflict upon a nation than that? The Noble Lord opposite will say, "Yes, that is all very well if you are setting up a claim to be an Established Church yourselves." "We are not. Why? Because we find that an Established Church, as such, plays no part in the life of our nation, not even of Churchmen. The Noble Lord very eloquently dwelt upon what would be the prospect of a people when you divorce religion from the State. Let us examine that. In what form does the State appear in Wales? Take the county councils, the town councils, boards of guardians, university courts, education committees, county courts, magistrates courts, quarter sessions, and now the assize court. The Church in no form appears in any of these except the Assize Court—never. Where does the Church appear in the county councils? I remember that when the Welsh county councils were first started I noted regularly their proceedings, which I have read, and I have never seen a single syllable to indicate what the national religion is or that the State Church intervenes at any point. You never find that religion affects the county councils. It never appears officially at any of the proceedings of these courts or councils. It appears at the Assizes. [An HON. MEMBER: "There is Mayor's Day."] We are to keep a State Church for the sake of the Mayor's Sunday? I think here we shall find a mare's nest. Mayor's Sunday! Why, when you have a Nonconformist mayor he goes to his own Church. If that is the point, we agree. It means you do not wish to select a special Church. What you want is to allow perfect freedom to the State.

Let me now take the Assize Court, the only Court in which we find the official appearance of the Church. There you get the chaplain to the sheriffs, and there are prayers for the judges. The last two sheriffs in our county were Nonconformists, and they appointed a Nonconformist chaplain, and I never heard that the judges were less impartial in their administration of the law on that account. There was only one great occasion in Wales, when we had a great ceremonial, where the State Church might have come in, that was the Investiture at Carnarvon of the Prince of Wales. The Noble Lord was present, I think, and so were many hon. Members. What happened there? There you had a great State occasion; it was one of, the most striking, most picturesque, and I think we shall all agree the most impressive of the whole series of Coronation ceremonies. It will dwell in the memory of every man who was present, and the religious service was the most impressive of all. There I think we shall agree. Hon. Gentlemen will admit that. How was it conducted? There were two Nonconformist ministers and two bishops, and how was the order of service settled? It was settled by the Archbishop of Canterbury, collaborating with the Chairman of the Welsh Free Church Council, and I agree that that was a very creditable transaction. The spontaneity and enthusiasm of that great ceremony I am certain arose to a very large extent from the feeling that we were all taking a hand in it. The people treated their Prince with an enthusiasm which you felt came straight from the heart. Supposing you had disestablished the Church ten years ago, there would not have been the slightest difference in that gathering. What is the use, then, of talking about the divorce of religion from the State? Does anybody imagine that you could, without religious feeling, have a great ceremonial in Wales, as long as the people remain in this temper, whether you disestablish or you do not disestablish? The nation maintains its reverence for things spiritual and the only effect that Establishment can have is in restricting your choice of those who minister on those great State occasions.

If a nation ceases to take an interest in religion, and preserves by law a hollow sham, an artificial connection of religion with the nation, it is a piece of loathsome hypocrisy that deceives neither God nor man. That is as far as I can deal with the question of Disestablishment. And now I come to Disendowment. I have been asked a very fair question over and over again, why, if we. grant Disestablishment should there be Disendowment? Let us examine that. In this Kingdom there have been three cases of the deposition of a particular Church or denomination from the position of the National Church, to the position of an ordinary unofficial denomination. One case was that of the Reformation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] The other was with regard to the Scottish Church, and the third was with regard to Ireland. Whenever there has been any change—I will lay this down as a proposition—in the character of the national arrangements for religion, endowments have always been taken away from the Church which has ceased to be the official spiritual representative of the people, and have been' applied by Statute to other purposes. [Hon. Members: "No, no."] The Disestablishment of a particular Church has always been followed in this country by Disendownment.

I know exactly what the Noble Lord has in his mind. I have heard it so often. I am going to deal with that; I am not going to shirk it. He takes the position that at the Reformation there was a continuity of the same Church. I know that hon. Members get over it by the contention that after the Reformation it was the same Church. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] But I take the essential difference to be that at the Reformation there was a Church in union with Rome.

I know it was the sixteenth century, and the hon. Member's memory is accurate in these matters. I can give the Noble Lord the names of the kings during that period, and there was an ancestor of his took part in this. Let us see what happened then. It was a Church that at that date was in union with Rome, and acknowledged the spiritual supremacy of the Pope. It held doctrines which are condemned by the Church of England as blasphemous, and I would point out to the Noble Lord that some of those doctrines were most useful for obtaining property. I observed, in an answer to a question by my hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary, that since 1662 the Church has only added £18,000 to its endowments. I am not surprised, as it had not the mechanism. I remember seeing, not very long ago, specimens of these grants to the Church. I remember a case of a Thomas Smith who gave considerable property in order to have masses for his soul. I have no doubt the property is still there, but I do not think there are any masses for the soul of poor Thomas Smith. That is in the name of religion. Properties have been taken also in the name of religion but the consideration is not paid, and you have those very people denouncing us as. committing sacrilege. How can you say that that is the same thing? If there is. one thing which is fundamental after all in the Catholic Church it is the continuity of that Church, and the Church of England whatever anybody may say, is as heretical, as far as that Church is concerned, as L am who am a mere Baptist. A heretic is a schismatic, so that the Noble Lord is no better than a Baptist. How can you claim continuity? There was continuity in the legal sense, but that is absolutely different. There are parishes in Wales still where there are Catholics. Those Catholics are not entitled to the benefit of the endowments of the Church property given to them and to their Church, and now enjoyed by a Church which says it is the same thing.

Could the Catholics go there and say, "We are the same thing, pay the tithe to us. We are ministering to the Catholic Church here, to the old faith"? If they did, you would soon find what the attitude of the incumbents of the other Church would be. It is only continuity in a technical and legal sense. In all things that are to be regarded as essential by the Church itself and by Christendom itself the Church cannot claim that it is anything but a complete change from the old system. At that date, though I have not got the exact figures, about two-thirds at least of the property of the Church was taken away, more than my right hon. Friend is taking. What was done with it? Most of the property was given to laymen as bribes for selling their old faith. There are laymen now enjoying those endowments, and they are the people who when I tried to take a halfpenny in the £ called me a thief. I ask hon. Members and right hon. Members to watch the Gentlemen who are still in the enjoyment of that property. There is no one more bitter against Disestablishment and Disendowment, no one condemns the spoliation and pillage and plunder of this Bill as they do. You take away the property of the Church, devoted as it was then very largely to the relief of distress and the maintenance of the poor, and the sequel proves that. You take that away and what happens? You give it to private uses, to enhance the consequence and increase the property of private owners, and that is a high act of statesmanship. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who says so?"] And the man who touches—[HON. MEMBERS: "Who says so?"] Let me finish. And the man who touches that property—

The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well my mouth is closed in this Debate, or he would not have ventured to make such an accusation.

The right hon. Gentleman is habitually very courteous to me. I do not know whether his suggestion is that my family received Church lands.

I think that is nothing but a personally offensive observation which has not any bearing on this Debate whatever. As a matter of fact, it is not true. If the right hon. Gentleman did mean that—which I hope for what remains of his character, for courtesy, and common sense he did not—then he is, as he generally is when discussing historical questions, entirely wrong.

Before the Noble Lord had made that observation I think he might have asked first of all what I did mean. I mean exactly what I said. First of all, before I came to it, I said that when I charged a halfpenny in the £ a challenge was made to me by the hon. Member for Dudley, who said, "Why do not you take this property away?" And I said that when I did try to take a halfpenny I was called a "robber." Then the Noble Lord, who really thinks that there are such powers of intimidation in his prowess that nobody would dare to say anything to him, said "Limehouse," and then I said "I have got home." It seems to have a very different effect now. It has taken them five minutes to see it, and really I think their sense of humour is very slow. It has taken them five minutes to see the joke. You see, therefore, that there are those who now have got Church property in their possession as the result of an act of disendowment, and they are among the bitterest opponents of Disestablishment. What is the next thing they did with it? The bulk of it was given away to private owners. What became of the rest of it? A very considerable part of it was given for educational purposes, and very good use was made of it. The nation has benefited by it. The Noble Lord asks what good will it do. If he wants to know what good it will do he simply has to trace the educational good that has been done by the great act of disendowment at the date of the Reformation. The same thing applies to Scotland. When the Church there changed its character and from Catholic became Presbyterian, the same thing applied.

Yes, afterwards when it became Episcopalian and then reverted to Presbyterianism. The property always followed. That is exactly the point I am seeking to make. The Church treats this as if she were the beneficiary. She is not the beneficiary; she is the trustee. The beneficiaries are the people of the land. All we have got to do is to trace the history of it. When you had the ancient Celtic Church in Wales, I have no doubt it had that property, but it was property held for the benefit of the people. When it became a Latin Church and an appenage of Rome then that Church for the time being held the property, but they held it as trustees for the same people. Afterwards you had the reformed Church, the Anglican Church, and the property was possessed by that Church, but only as trustee. In the days of Cromwell yon had the Presbyterians and the Independents holding that property. It required an Act of Parliament to dispossess them of it. They did not hold it for the benefit of Presbyterianism or of the Independents, but they held it for the benefit of the parishioners and the whole of the parishioners. They are purely trustees. What you have got to consider in this case is not the benefit of any individual Church, but what is best for the interests of the beneficiaries to whom the property belongs. Ireland is; another case. You Disestablished the Church in Ireland. That Disestablishment was effected by the most distinguished and one of the most devout and sincere lay Churchmen of his generation. Was he animated by such miserable spite and petty malice against that Church? Who is there who dares to bring that charge against the memory of the late Mr. Gladstone? He was firmly convinced that it was better in the interests of the Church itself that you should remove the sense of injustice when you came to deal with the whole nation. Then, what is this property? Most of the property is tithe—undoubtedly a legal impost.

I could give no end of quotations. As the hon. Member has promised to supply me with his quotations later on, I will exchange quotations with him. If the law has imposed a charge in the nature of a tax on the property of the country, has the law not a right to take it away or to alter its character? It has done so repeatedly, and it has a right to do so again. The Noble Lord the Member for the Newton Division (Viscount Wolmer) said the other day that the property was left for the specific doctrines of the Church of England. I do not know where the Noble Lord read his history if he really imagines that the property of the Church in Wales was left to a Church whose doctrines were identical with those of the Church of England.

I really invite him to read up a little Welsh history. Let me give him a sample of these doctrines of the Church of England. He will find it in a collection of documents in the Library. There is a document conferring property upon the Abbots of Cwmhir. This is a document. You are not here examining guesses and theories. It is a document which shows the kind of grant that was made at that time. This is a grant made to a Church which, according to the Noble Lord, held the doctrines of the Church of England— minority. The grants given at that time were given to a Church in communion with Home, and the present Church is the last body in the world to point the finger of scorn at anybody who proposes to restore those grants to their original purpose, of the relief of distress and the maintenance of the poor. Take the case in Wales now. The hon. Member for Dudley (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen), as an old Charity Commissioner, has laid down certain principles, known as the cy-pres doctrine. I will take one from the Archbishop of Canterbury:— whoever the beneficiaries were, you may depend upon it it was intended that the tillers of the soil, the people who created the tithe, the people who paid the tithe, should certainly enjoy the benefit of it. But they do not. They maintain their own ministers. The proportion to be given to the poor has been taken away, and the whole maintenance of the poor falls on the people, while at the same time they are giving one-tenth of the profit of their labour to maintaining a ministry the benefit of which they never derive. You may say that it is their own fault, because the ministry is there and the Church is there. It is not their fault. The fault is that of the Church itself, and the Church cannot take advantage of its own fault.

6.0 P.M.

What would happen under Disestablishment in that parish? After the life interests had been exhausted, you could apply the money either to the provision of a cottage hospital or to the payment of a district nurse—both sadly needed in that scattered agricultural district. The people would derive immediate material benefit from the money. What would happen to the Church? Would its doors be closed? The only thing that would happen to the Church would be that the rich landowners would have the same privilege as their tenants now enjoy, of maintaining a Christian ministry for themselves. A third part of the tithe was undoubtedly ordained for the maintenance of the poor. [Several HON. MEMBERS: "Who says so?"] Since I am challenged I will quote an authority. The hon. Gentleman opposite said that he would rather have the opinion of an authority like Lord Selborne than the opinion of my right hon. Friend. I am not going to quote any politician like Lord Selborne or my right hon. Friend, I am going to quote one of the highest authorities on English law, namely, Mr. Justice Blackstone. He wrote:— law of this land has the right to take away the one-third of the poor and the one-third for the fabric, and to give it all to somebody who has only one-third of the trust, has it not the right now to make another change, and to say that the one-third of the clergy and the one-third for the fabric shall be given again to the poor? It is done by process of law. Something was said about this being a secular purpose. Who said that the maintenance of the poor was a secular purpose? Who ruled it out from being one of the purposes of the Church? The hon. Gentleman (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen) in his peroration said that we were taking away money that was given to God. "He who gives to the poor lends to the Lord." After all, I would ask the right hon. and hon. Members opposite to remember that the first collection ever made by the Church, the first property ever acquired by the Christian Church, was for the maintenance not of the clergy but of the poor. Talk about old musty documents, you are going further back that your Giraldus Cambrensis. He is a pretty high authority, but this is the highest authority of all. It is the highest and most sacred purpose of the Christian Church to give of the goods of its members to relieve the distress of those who suffer. We give to the land what the law gave before, and what it has a right to give again—property which belongs to the nation. If the nation to whom this property belongs, and for whose benefit it has been given comes to this House and says:—"We want first of all to put the spiritual guidance of Wales in the hands of the people who for two centuries have shown that they are capable of attending to it," if they say in regard to the property which belongs to them that they wish it to be given to the poor and the broken amongst them, I say that is a claim which ought to be listened to with respect, demanded as it has been once, twice, even unto the tenth time. I am here on behalf of a small but loyal people to ask for justice at the hands of this great nation.

We have just listened to a speech that I may describe as an old-fashioned Church and chapel speech. The right hon. Gentleman praises up the chapels, praises up Nonconformity, and runs down the Church. He tells us what the Church did in 1620, and in the eighteenth century, and what Nonconformity has done in the last few years in Wales. He compares the two. He says that the Church is following, and that Nonconformity is leading. He makes various reflections on and draws various comparisons between these two bodies. That, if I may say so, is the old style. It is the thing we are accustomed to in Wales-Church against chapel, running down the Church, and belauding the goodness of the chapel. I do not want to follow that example, which it would be very easy for me to do from my own experience in Wales, and give instances of Nonconformist chapels which are brawling houses for politicians. You may cry down the Church: no Church in Wales has ever had a scene or a speech like that which the right hon. Gentleman himself gave in December last in the Calvinistic Methodist Church at Denbigh. He may have had Nonconformist ministers on the platform. They may have sung hymns. But it was on the eve of the poll, and the right hon. Gentleman came to deal with politics, and did not touch the Church question although it was the eve of the poll. He dealt entirely in personalities. I could quote instances of Welsh chapels being sold, of the enormous debts that they have run up, and so on. But one does not like to compare Church and chapel in this matter. It is a question of far more importance. It is a matter of present day expediency, expediency in the best sense of the word. I quite agree that all these ancient, legal antiquarianisms, all these figures, are as dust in the balance compared with the real root problems we are facing in this Bill, which is the problem of Disestablishment. It may be summed up, so far as this Bill is concerned, as forcible Church dismemberment, against the will of the Church, with not a single leader, lay or clerical, and with not sixteen out of the sixteen hundred Welsh clergy in favour of such dismemberment. Treatment of that sort you would not mete out to any one of the Welsh Nonconformist denominations. The Wesleyan Churches ask to remain part of the British Wesleyan Conference. They are part of it, part of the unity. You dare not break up that unity. Yet the right hon. Gentleman, without justification or argument, against the whole wish of the Church in Wales, says you will be no longer part of the province of Canterbury, no longer established with your appeals to Parliament, but you will be incorporated by charter and will be under a representative Church body. You will be re-established by the State. The Nonconformist denominations are bound, not in fact in the same way as the Church, but bound far more tightly by their trust deeds, and in other ways, than we are by the State. If you are going to talk about liberation and the freedom of religion from State control, let us examine the position of the Welsh Nonconformist bodies who cannot even change their doctrines without an appeal to this House, and who hold their property by deed polls and by trust deeds from which they cannot get away without recourse to the State. The liberation argument does not apply to this Bill, and the idea of freeing the Church under this Bill is mere window dressing and mockery. How can the Church in Wales be free? You admit that you are going to allow the Church in Wales to remain in communion with the Church in England. How are you going to set the Church in Wales free while the greater portion of the Church of which we have formed part for centuries remains bound in that sense of the word? The Church has the freedom she asks for to-day. There is not a leader in Wales, lay or clerical, who demands the Disestablishment of the Church in order to obtain so-called freedom. But let us take, not the Disestablishment point — because I quite readily admit,, with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Carmarthen Boroughs, that Disestablishment without Disendowment is not worth working for, much less worth fighting for, and let me give a quotation from the Under-Secretary, who in 1907 said, in a speech on Welsh Disestablishment and Disendowment:—

"We have a programme with money in it, the only programme worth having."

All the talk about national injustice, about forcing the Church upon the people that we have listened to from the Chancellor of the Exchequer is mere window-dressing, meant to hide what hon. Members opposite are really after, namely, to cripple the Church's work by depriving her of a large portion of her endowment. The House has got to answer before its conscience to-day the question, Is it going to do any good to Christianity in Wales or to the people in Wales by reducing—taking away in some cases altogether—the income of the poorest clergy of the Church 1 In the hills and valleys in our industrial districts there are too few clergy already. They are all of them underpaid—Church and Nonconformists as well. Nonconformists confess that almost everywhere the voluntary system has broken down. [HON. MBMBERS: "No, no."] Why, then, are they asking for sustentation funds? Why is it that when the Home Secretary comes down to the House and quotes figures for the building of chapels and seating accommodation in Glamorganshire he omits to say that many of these chapels are not paid for yet—that they have been built with borrowed money? Everybody knows that all denominations are crying out to-day for money to pay better stipends to their ministers. What you are doing by this Bill is to weaken one of the forces of Christianity in Wales. I myself can go into some of these legal and historical arguments to show that there is no justification for the action proposed, but I do not wish to weary the House. What did the right hon. Gentleman state in the speech in which he introduced the Bill? The first part of his speech dealt entirely with figures; he then dealt with the origin of these endowments, and then he gave an outline of the Bill itself. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the Swansea District and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have also dealt with the origin of endowments, and they cited ancient and historical manuscripts. I have got a few of these here. He says this:—

"On the authority of Giraldus Cambrensis, I venture to assert that the union of the two Churches was made by the power of the Crown."

Does he assert on the authority of Giraldus Cambrensis that there were no tithes in the Church of Wales long before? Giraldus Cambrensis (Hoare), which the right hon. Gentleman quotes, in his description of Wales, chapter 18, says that—

"in the days of the early Celtic Church, when Germanus of Auxerre and Lupus of Troyes came over on account of the corruption which had crept into the island by the invasion of the (heathen) Saxon, but particularly with a view of expelling the Pelagian heresy, nothing heretical or contrary to the true faith was found among the natives.…They gave a tenth of all their property, animals, cattle and sheep.…This partition of their effects they call the 'great tithe'—two part's of which theygive to the church where they were baptised and a third to the Bishop of the diocese."

Long before Augustine there was tithe according to this authority. I do not know whether it is right that it is one of the oldest forms of endowment in the Church of Wales, but most astounding of the historical statements of all made was—

"that the connection between the Church in "Wales and the Church in England took place for the first time in the twelfth century, and it took place by the acknowledgment by the Welsh bishop for the first time of the supremacy of the see of Canterbury."—[OFFICIAL REPORT,23rd April, 1912, col. 943.]

Does the right, hon. Gentleman stick to that statement?

I looked up to see what Hadden and Stubbs (R. de Diceto, abbrev. chron. translation from the Latin) says. The earliest mention of the acknowledgment of the Primacy of Canterbury was A.D. 872. In that year— really an argument from historical fiction where even historical fact would not have much real significance or weight upon the question.

I now come to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill (Mr. McKenna). He began his argument by stating figures. If we began to challenge the figures of the Royal Commission I am afraid there would be no end to the discussion; but it was perfectly clear that he compared the Church of England communicants with Nonconformist full membership. He thinks the two are comparable or in any way parallel, but everybody knows they are not. Everybody knows that Nonconformist full members as returned to the Commission, by the admission of some of their witnesses, contain even young children. Will anybody dispute that? I will quote the evidence of Mr. John Owens, who calls himself the Secretary of the Parliamentary and Property Committee of the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists. A Free Church with a Parliamentary and Property Committee! This Mr. John Owens was interrogated before the Commission. The Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) said to him, "I understand there are some adherents (in your enumeration) who are not members." The answer was "Yes." He was then asked by Archdeacon Owen Evans, "Are there not also some members who are not communicants?" He replied, "Yes, I have said so here." The Chairman then said, "Strictly speaking, children are not members in fact," and he answered, "They are members in fact of our Church." The next question was, "From the date they are born?" and the answer was, "From the date they are baptised." Then Lord Hugh Cecil asked him, But not in virtue of their baptism?" And he replied "Yes." It is perfectly clear that in many cases, I do not say in all denominations, but in that particular denomination, children were included in the statistics.

Yes, he said full members here. It is referred to here in his evidence. It is perfectly clear that full members in the Nonconformist denominations in Wales contains people who do not communicate during the year. Within the Church of England "communicant" was applied to those who have actually com- municated, but the Nonconformist full members are persons entitled to communicate, not persons who have actually communicated.

I am quite willing to give way if the hon. Member will show me where I am wrong.

As regards its members the Nonconformist Church is far stricter than the Church of England. It has a list which every year is gone through and examined. I would like to ask whether in the Church of England any member is excommunicated at any time; or does it, as the Nonconformist Church does, claim a right over the morals of every member.

I do not see how excommunication or a right over the morals of these various Churches affects the matter. The hon. Member claims a right over the morals of the people of his Church, and I am glad to hear it, but I do not see how it affects the statistical argument, and he has not shown me that my quotations from the Report of the Commission are wrong, or that my quotations from the evidence are wrong. What he puts forward is an entirely different argument altogether. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. McKenna) in his speech proceeded to speak of the growth of the Church in one county, but in doing so he did not take a survey of the whole field, and he used his figures most unfairly. Take the case of the county Glamorgan, which is the least Welsh county in Wales, with a large new population, which has come in largely from outside, and he gave the figures for what? The sitting accommodation! Why did he not give the figures showing the increase in communicants and the increase in the ministry provided—the living word, and the living ministry in the lives of the people. But he gave the seating accommodation. What has been the story of the seating accommodation in Glamorgan? My attention was drawn to the fact that the local Press in South Wales declared the other day that the Welsh Congregational Chapel, Mount Stuart Square, was for sale. That is what has happened to the seating accommodation. That is the evidence of the vitality and growth of this denomination in Wales. Let us take the seating accommodation itself. It amounts to this, that the seating accommodation in Wales is in excess of the total population. Take into consideration one statement of the right hon. Gentleman. You will find on page 54 of the Report that the Nonconformists in calculating sitting accommodation took eighteen inches and the Church of England took twenty-one. It is not much, but he might have thought of that, After all, the statistical arguments do not bear very much on the main question.

The numerical argument was used by the right hon. Gentleman, and it is necessary to touch upon it. It was also used by hon. Members opposite, who voted for a religious census in Ireland before Disestablishment and Disendowment took place there, and when, among others, I asked for the same treatment in Wales, they Were loud in their opposition. Even the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) opposed a religious census in Wales, and the very next day a Government Bill continued a religious census in Ireland. He objected, I suppose, on conscientious grounds, bound by St. George's Channel. Now let me come to the numerical argument in another aspect, the voter. The right hon. Gentleman when I interrupted him, counted members and not voters. What about voters in 1895 in Wales? "Then," he said, "we had a majority of 3 to 1." But what was the proportion of voters? It was 17 to 14. There were dwindling majorities everywhere, and that is the only time there has been anything like a fight on this issue in Wales, or on which it was put before the Welsh people, and that took place despite the position of the Liberal party, which is so strongly entrenched with its rich millionaire Liberal Members up and down Wales, one or two of whose combined incomes is more than the total income of the 1,600 Welsh clergy. I fought two elections in Wales. I have had some little experience of elections in Wales. I deny on oath absolutely that this question was put fairly before the people anywhere near my Constituency, either in the last or in the previous election by the Liberal party. I endeavoured to raise it in my own Constituency, but on both occasions the other side ran away.

I have kept an interesting document, the election address of the hon. Member for East Glamorgan (Mr. C. Edwards), with whom I contested the election before last. He was loud in this House in the demand for Welsh Disestablishment, and he was then Member for Denbigh. He sat for Denbigh, and he came back to the electors of Denbigh, and he issued one of the longest election addresses ever issued to those electors. He produced "our great record," and referred to national defence, old age pensions (in large letters), unemployment, agricultural and commercial classes, education, licensing and finance, the Budget and the Lords (in very large letters), and Tariff Reform; but there was no mention of Welsh Disestablishment, no mention even of religious equality, no reference to the Church in Wales. Take the previous election in 1906, when the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down belauds himself that Wales was solid in favour of Disestablishment. The late Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman came down to Wales, and spoke at Wrexham. He never referred to the matter; he never mentioned Disestablishment or Disendowment or anything of the kind. Everybody who knows Wales—most Members seem to learn all they can second-hand up here—knows that the people of Wales have not been consulted upon this question. If they were consulted by Referendum after discussing the Bill properly, in spite of the money bags and of the Campaign Committee of the Free Church Council, of which the hon. Member for Swansea Town is treasurer, there would be a very different political complexion in Wales and a very different answer to the claim that the people of Wales want this Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in answer to an interruption said he did not believe that the Prime Minister had ever said that there was no break up at the Reformation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer defended the position which has always been held by the Bishop of Hereford, amongst others, that the Church of Rome possessed endowments, and that the State took away these endowments from the Church of Rome and handed them over to the new Church. What were the Prime Minister's words? Speaking of this Bill in 1895, he said:— entirely different religion. All his arguments were in favour of establishing Nonconformity. He belauded Nonconformity, and he said you would never get the Celtic people to assent to the Church of England, and he made that prophecy in spite of the fact that every Nonconformist denomination in Wales, except the Wesleyan Methodist, the three largest denominations in Wales, have been steadily declining ever since 1905 in communicants, Sunday Schools, and on every test case, and the Church of England has been steadily increasing. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] Does the hon. Member deny that? If he does I have got the figures.

The hon. Member knows very well that there was an exceptional revival in 1905, but, of course, there is a great net increase as well.

I am very much obliged for the hon. Member's interruption. He says that the figures for 1905 were very exceptional. May I remind the House that those were the figures chosen by the Home Secretary when he introduced the Bill.

The hon. Member imputes unfairness to me. I stated in the opening of my speech that I selected the year which had been chosen by the Commission, because it was the only year for which we had the exact figures.

I do not wish to impute unfairness to the right hon. Gentleman, but it ought to have been stated that the year he gave was the year of a revival when the Nonconformist figures were unusually swollen. I was challenged yesterday, in an interruption—

Were not the Church of England figures affected by the revival of 1905?

Yes, they were affected, but very much less than the Nonconformist figures, and there was not the up-and-down movement that there has been in the case of the Nonconformists. I was challenged yesterday by the hon. Member for Carmarthen Boroughs on the subject of the laws of Hywel Dda, who wrote early in the tenth century. The hon. Member shook his head and denied that there were any tithes in Wales before the tenth century.

The date is abort 920. Therefore, that means that the laws of Hywel Dda maybe ruled out altogether because at that time tithes in Wales were non-existent, and therefore the whole of the manuscripts are utterly worthless in this respect. Let us go from these historical points to the question of the Disendowment proposals of this Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer seems to think that the Church in Wales ought to be Disendowed because the monasteries were Disendowed, and because the Church in Ireland was Disendowed, There is no parallel between either of those cases and the Church in Wales. He talks of these funds being monopolised by the clergy in Wales, but what are the clergy doing as a result? What is the position of the clergy in Wales? Are they not doing anything for the poor of Wales! Does the right hon. Gentleman assert that? Are the poor in Wales not beneficiaries as the result of the existing endowments? Of course they are, because that is the first and the greatest benefit to-the poorest of the poor. They can go to Church without having to pay, and they do so, or at any rate a very large number of them. I do not wish to imitate the Chancellor of the Exchequer in stirring up Church and chapel feelings, but in the poorest street in Denbigh there is a mission church. I heard there the statement by a Nonconformist:- denomination in Wales provides even 1,000 ministers. Our ministers are apportioned to districts throughout Wales. We are national in our organisation in such a way as no Nonconformists can claim. I know the Calvinist Methodists are very strong in Anglesey. The Baptists are very strong in Carmarthen, and the Congregationalists and Independents are very strong in Glamorganshire. Above all, you find this most significant fact, that in a large number of districts in Wales, and those the poorest districts and the most remote, the only resident minister of religion there is a minister connected with the ancient and Established Church of Wales.

In a large number of parishes that man's duties are not merely exercised and carried out for the people who come to his Church. It seems to be the impression of hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that the clergy of the Church of England in Wales never think about the people outside their own flock, but they do, and I can produce witnesses and evidence to show that frequently Nonconformists—in many cases people who do not go either to Church or chapel— parishioners of all creeds and classes, send for the minister of the Established Church, and the pastoral work of the clergy of the Church in Wales I believe to be some of the best which is being done for Christianity to-day. It is against that minister that this Bill is conceived. It is that man who is going to be hit by this Bill. His presence very often helps to keep up a house and he has to keep up his position as an educated man very often on a less wage than many of the miners and working colliers are earning. I know that very often that applies to all denominations, but why make them poorer by this Bill? The University does not want this money, and if it does want it get it from the taxpayer. It is the duty of this House if the Welsh University is not being properly subsidised to increase the Grant. The truth is that you want to take away from the Church this money at all costs, and then you begin to look round for some suitable object upon which to spend the money. The Nonconformists say that they will not have this money, and yet they are crying out for money to be provided for their ministers.

Christianity wants this money. The Nonconformists and the Church in Wales require money. This secularisation does not appal the hon. Member for Swansea Districts, but it does appal those who do feel upon this question to whom religion is not merely providing university education and wireless telegraphy, but to whom, it is the administration of divinely ordained sacrament, week in and week out, pastoral advice and admonition, and helping the needy. It is because those hold that view of religion that Nonconformists as well as Church people are opposing this Bill more resolutely and more determinedly than ever before. On this question Liberal Churchmen are leaving their party, and some of the most stalwart supporters of Liberalism are against this Bill. If you inquire in the Whips Office they will tell you that at every by-election the Welsh Church question has lost them as many votes as anything else. Look at the Nonconformist ministers who are opposed to this Bill, some of whom are going round the country and speaking on our platforms against this measure. Disendowment is hateful to a Christian country when it means money being taken away from really Christian service and being spent by the county councils, some of it on good objects and some of it on museums and other things which are not in any way remotely connected with the way in which the money has been expended during the last twenty-five years. It is money which has been customarily expended for twenty-five years, that is the title of the Nonconformists in some of their endowments. Under the Dissenters Chapel Act, if you can show that you have used your endowments for twenty-five years, the State will protect those endowments, and redress can be obtained at law. Why is that not so with the Church of England in Wales?" Because you hate the Church and that is why. I will requote a sentence from the remarks made by the hon. Member for Anglesey who has recently taken office in order to take charge of this Bill. Those remarks will never be forgotten by the Churchmen of Wales. He used the-words:— has fought up and down for Wales for what he believes in his heart of hearts to be the best interest of religion, the best interests of the Church, and the best interests of the people of Wales, on all opportunities and by every means in my power I shall oppose .this Bill, and I hope that the consciences of hon. Members on all sides may, before it is too late, induce them to pause before they divert a fund which is being so well spent as it is to-day in the cause of Christianity in Wales to those uses which you had much better provide for by an extra farthing on the Income Tax. I have not said anything about the national recognition of religion. The main facts are these. Disendowment is a secularisation of Christian money. Disestablishment in Wales, apart from the Disestablishment of the Church of England, is dismemberment of the Church of England by an arbitrary act of the State against the will of the Church.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down began and ended his speech upon the note of Church versus chapel. I was sorry he took that note at all, but I am quite prepared to recognise the natural feeling of affection he has for his Church, and the natural feeling and desire he has to defend that Church against any attack. Personally, as I listened to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I was struck by the frequency with which my own religious denomination came under discussion, and perhaps I must apologise if I remind hon. Gentlemen—some hon. Gentlemen opposite do not know it—that I belong to the ancient faith, the Roman Catholic faith, of which the Noble Lord the Member for Cardiff (Lord Crichton-Stuart) mentioned on Tuesday that he was a member. I agree with the Noble Lord the Member for Cardiff religiously, but I take exception altogether to the position he takes up with regard to this Bill, as a Roman Catholic, when he speaks of it as a Bill which probably does not affect either himself or his Church. I feel this Bill does affect me very much indeed, because I am a Welshman. That, of course, is a qualification which I know the Noble Lord would not claim, but I would say, with all respect to his nationality, that is his misfortune and not his fault. I noticed a disposition in "the speech of the hon. Gentleman who last spoke to ignore the feeling of the people of Wales. The hon. Gentleman has, I observe, done what is certainly very unusual for a man in his position. He has devoted himself to the study of some of the literature of his country. He has quoted Hywel Dda and Giraldus Cambrensis. That is one good feature we must attribute to the discussion of the question of Welsh Disestablishment, but the hon. Gentleman has not learned that Hywel Dda cannot be quite accepted as an authority on the matters we are discussing to-day. There is certainly a lack of authenticity with regard to any of the manuscripts which are ascribed to that great law-giver. I would like to refer to the long and continuous demand that has been made for Disestablishment in Wales, and the cause of it. It has been referred to before on this side of the House, but it has not yet been answered on the other side of the House. Disestablishment is no new demand on the part of Wales. I have heard Disestablishment discussed and demanded ever since I can remember anything, and I am unfortunately a good deal older than some hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite; and it has gone on becoming more and more insistent.

7.0 P. M.

The fact has been alluded to on the opposite side that there are great divisions of belief in Wales. That does not affect one peculiarity of Welsh belief; and that is, that all the sects in Wales are united with respect to what they regard as the Erastian principle, which is embodied in a State Church. That, I think, is really at the bottom of the demand for Welsh Disestablishment; and I regret when hon. Gentlemen, like the hon. Gentleman who spoke just now, suggest there are divisions of an inferior character, such as envy and jealousy. Envy and jealousy, as we all know, enter into all human affairs, but I do not think they can be attributed to a whole nation. Wales is, moreover, a country in which democratic feeling has always been very strong. I think our elections, which have been frequently alluded to, perhaps too frequently, indicate the strength of democracy in Wales. The ideas of democracy and the ideas of the Free Churches are both the product of the same historical period. They are both the outcome of that period in our history which is covered by the seventeenth century. Then arose, or at least defined itself, that theory, the democratic theory, that the people were the State. And then followed the corollary of that theory, that the State could not be the over-lords of the Church. These two ideas are uppermost in the minds of the Welsh people. This is the explanation, I think, of the persistent opposition of the Welsh people to an Established Church. It is the separation of the ideas of secular government and spiritual government that lie at the root of the Welsh demand for Disestablishment. The problem which presented itself in the seventeenth century was how to carry on a government which assumed that all its subjects were of one religion, when, as a matter of fact, there were innumerable divisions of faith amongst them. There were various solutions attempted in various countries. The solution attempted in France had the effect of sending over some very valuable subjects to join the people of this country. The attempted solution of England was an Established Church, fortified by Acts of Uniformity and Test Acts. The Test Acts have been swept away. The last of them, or one of the last vestiges of them, disappeared two years ago in this House. The Establishment remains, and it is our contention in Wales—those of us who know Wales best, and I speak as one who certainly does not rely for his knowledge of Wales upon hearsay, because I have lived in Wales all my life— that the Establishment has not been successful from any point of view in Wales. Wales has always entertained a strong preference for that which was embodied in Cavour's famous formula:— different sects, but not .in a numerical proportionate superiority as regards the whole nation. After all, what does that prove? It only proves the infinite variety of religious thought in Wales. It only proves that Welsh men, left to themselves, do develop their religious aspirations in different directions. In other words, it proves the excessive number of religious sects into which Wales is divided. Nevertheless it remains the fact that the Church of England, as I gather from the various estimates that have been put forward, cannot claim to possess more than one-tenth of the whole population as the number of its communicants—everybody will admit that that is a small proportion—and can only provide seating accommodation in Church for about one-fourth. It seems to me, however, that all these questions of figures are really beside the point. They would have some substance if we were proposing to set up another Establishment; but we are not proposing to do anything of the sort. If it were proposed that the Welsh Calvinistic Methodist Church, or the Welsh Baptist Church, or my own Church, which is a very humble Church in Wales, was bringing forward a claim to be put in the position of privilege now enjoyed by the Church of England, I could understand there was some force of argument behind this objection. But that is not the case. All we ask for is that all religious denominations shall be placed upon an equal footing; that there shall be an equal opportunity for all people; and I believe, if that were granted—perhaps I have a greater faith in that Church than hon. Gentlemen who belong to it—I believe, if that were granted, if it were felt by the people of Wales that they were all on the same footing, then the Church of England in Wales would be sensibly strengthened. I do not think that hon. Gentlemen should calculate strength merely by pecuniary forms. I think there is a great deal, especially among my countrymen, who are much swayed by sentiment, in the thought that every man who goes into the field of spiritual labour, goes there freely, and is not tied by any ties of interest. Now I return to the somewhat more delicate question of Endowment.

Something has been said to-day by, I think, two speakers with regard to Endowment, as though it were a question of Nonconformists objecting to the Established Church because it had an Endowment or rather because they objected to Endowments in themselves. That is not the fact. Nonconformist bodies are undoubtedly fairly endowed by many of their faithful members, and there is no objection to Endowment qua Endowment. But what most Nonconformist bodies do object to is the State interference in religious matters by which one religious body is endowed with funds contributed for other purposes than for the support of that particular body. I think there will be no difference of opinion in Wales in regard to the manner in which it is proposed under this Bill to treat Church Endowments donated after the year 1662, because it is recognised that those were Endowments made to the Church established as it is at present. But the feeling in regard to the earlier Endowments is that they were given for other and more extensive purposes. I receive daily—and I am very sorry these things are circulated; I have no doubt hon. Gentlemen on both sides receive similar communications—a large number of resolutions passed by vestry meetings in Wales, and some, even, in England, protesting against any interference with the Establishment. They put forward as a reason, to use their own words, that "It is destroying the Church by confiscating to secular uses the Endowments consecrated to the service of God." [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Gentlemen cheer that, and, of course, they are perfectly at liberty to hold their own opinions on the subject. But I assert that there is absolutely no desire among the people of the Welsh nation, any more than there is in my mind, to have anything to do with legalised sacrilege. What they do desire is an equal opportunity for all Christian denominations.

We want to put an end to sectarian privileges, and, above all, we desire that the national religion of our country should be the free expression of the spiritual aspirations of the people, and not merely the statutory articles, creed, and observances of a State Church. When right reverend prelates outside this House, and hon. Members like the hon. and learned Member for Bucks (Sir A. Cripps) speak of spoliation or robbery and pillage, it becomes necessary for us to consider in the light of evidence which is available to anyone in Wales, what is spoliation. Anyone who has visited Wales will have realised that it deserves the name that it has been given, of "a land of ruins." It is probably richer in ancient ruins and remains than any other part of the United Kingdom. There are its castles as everybody knows; but besides these, there are its abbeys and priories. Moreover, there is hardly a parish which does not contain some ancient memorials of the early faith of that country. There are ancient priories, the original use of which can only be recognised by the Welsh names which are attached to them. You meet with the ruins of hermitages, shrines and chapels up and down the country, or you recognise by the names given to localities what was the original purpose of that particular piece of land. What has become of these monuments of an ancient Church? I could show hon. Gentlemen opposite places where the pious founders' graves have been entirely swept away and other places —I have one in my mind at this moment— where the lineal descendants of those who lie in mutilated and defaced effigies have been forbidden and debarred from maintaining those tombs in order because they belong to the ancient faith of the persons who built them. What became, I ask, of the Endowments of these places—for they were all endowed. Those Endowments were taken away. They were sequestrated; but not for religious purposes. They were handed over to needy sixteenth century politicians. They were handed over to supporters, servile supporters, of civilians who wished to assert the power of the secular arm in the spiritual domain. That is what I call spoliation. That is what I call robbery and pillage. That is the spoliation to which my country has been subjected. To that spoliation is directly traceable, to my mind, the modern development of religious thought in Wales. The old Church was swept away. Every vestige of it disappeared. There were no longer any ministers of the ancient faith. It was simply annihilated, and there was nothing put in its place except a statutory Establishment set up by the authority of an English Parliament with which the Welsh people of that time had very little sympathy, and in which they were hardly represented.

The right hon. and learned Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Mr. Alfred Lyttelton) spoke of the Endowments of the Irish Church as the monuments and results of State confiscation. I wish the right hon. Gentleman were in the House now because I would invite him to come to Wales, and, if he is curious hi such things, I should be very happy to show him some of the monuments and memorials of State confiscation in Wales. Perhaps then he would come to the conclusion that Disestablishment is not what he appears to believe it to be, that is out of date, but that it has been in fact too long delayed. How does my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary propose in the Bill which he proposes to bring in to carry out this policy of confiscation with which we are charged? How are the Endowments going to be dealt with under this Bill? I do not come to this House as a Catholic, and my hon. Friends behind me do not come here as Nonconformists, to claim in a spirit of narrow sectarianism Endowments to which possibly I might have some claim, since they were the gift, in many cases, of my own Catholic ancestors, and which, it might be argued, were intended for the use of Catholics for all time. I do not do so, for I realise that the old order is changed, that you cannot revert to it, and that no Act of this Parliament can bridge the gulf that separates the society of to-day from the society of the time when these Endowments were given. It cannot be done. What I seek is that there shall be what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square, spoke of as the continuity of trust, that there shall be an extension of the benefits to some of those for whom they were intended. The Noble Lord the Member for the Newton Division (Viscount Wolmer), speaking on Tuesday, said that he held that the Church of England adheres to the creed of the Church of the Middle Ages, and upon that he based elaborate arguments to prove the title of the Church of England to pre-Reformation Endowments. I gather that was what he meant from reading the report of his speech. The argument appears to be this; the Church of England holds the creed of the Middle Ages, the Church of England is the Established Church of Wales, therefore the Established Church of Wales is identical with the Church of the Middle Ages, and therefore the Endowments of the Church of the Middle Ages were endowments of the Church of England as established by law in Wales in the twentieth century. That appeared to be the thesis he put forward. It seems to me to be an absolute reductio ad absurdum, for the reason that the Noble Lord is altogether at fault in his major premise. The Established Church of England does not hold the creed of the Church of the Middle Ages. It cannot on that ground, at least, lie regarded as its successor in title.

I think the Noble Lord was referring to the particular creeds he recited, to the Nicene and Apostolic Creeds.

I will not pursue the matter because I particularly do not wish to say one word that would appear lacking in respect for the creed of any hon. Gentleman belonging to the Church of England—first of all, because I know that many of them hold to their faith as strongly as I do to mine, and secondly, that Catholic as I am, I am united by the strongest ties that can bind any man to those who have held, and continue to hold, the creed and observances of the Church of England as their most cherished spiritual possession. I am sure hon. Gentlemen will not accuse me of any hostility if I differ from the Noble Lord in what I believe is his belief in the direct continuity of succession. I assert that the Articles, Creed, and observances of the Established Church are those which are authorised by the several Acts of Uniformity of the English Parliament, and that there is an essential difference between that Church and the Church of the Middle Ages.

That is a matter of opinion. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is entitled to his opinion, and Churchmen are entitled to theirs.

I began by saying I admitted that everybody was entitled to their own opinion; and it is in no spirit of hostility to the Noble Lord that I assert that the Creed and Ordinances of the Established Church of England are by law those which are laid down in the various Acts of Uniformity, and that they are not those which belong to the Church of which I am a member, and which I claim is the same as the Church in the Middle Ages.

Surely the Members of the Church of England know what they believe better than the members of other Churches?

I do not wish in the least to enter into any dispute as to what the Noble Lord means or does not mean. I am merely stating my views, and I have merely stated the effect his argument had upon my mind. My argument is this: that when the endowments with which we are now concerned were made, there was but one Church, and that was the universal Church. That Church comprised not the nation alone, because no idea of the nation at that time could have been evolved. The Church was the community of the Christian peoples of the world. An endowment for the service of God was not in those days what it must be to-day. To-day, owing to circumstances, an endowment must be the endowment of a sect. In those days an endowment was a gift dedicated to God for the use of a world-wide community, the universal Church, united in a universal spiritual Church. That is a condition which ceased to exist 300 years ago, and other conditions have arisen. One of the most potent of those other conditions is the evolution of the nation. At the time of which we are speaking I think it is historically admitted that the modern idea of a nation had not been evolved. It was evolved from the stress and turmoil of the period of the religious wars of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Only one hundred years ago the idea of a nation was almost eliminated from Continental Europe by the man who was the embodiment of the spirit of the French Revolution; but it remained in this country, and it has revived in Europe, and to-day the idea of nationality is the controlling factor in world policy. The world is governed by the sentiment of nationality to-day.

I am here as a nationalist before anything else, not as a Catholic speaking in a spirit of narrow sectarianism. I come here to demand for the nation of which I am a humble member a full share of those endowments which my Catholic ancestors made for the benefit of a much wider community than merely a small Church by law established. I maintain that will be doing the very thing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's Hanover Square, desired when he spoke of the necessity of fulfilling as nearly as possible the conditions of the trusts. It was a trust for a universal Church, and the nearest we can get to that now is an application of them for universal benefit to the members of the nation who are affected. As to the manner in which these endowments are to be applied, I am of opinion that the application of the funds affected by the Bill should be sought in spiritual rather than in natural objects. I believe it is in the development and use of our intellectual powers that we are most likely to approach nearer to the spiritual ideals which are the essence of religion. Therefore I rejoice in what my right hon. Friend has said as to the intention of the Government in regard to the

It seems to me that the hon. and gallant Gentleman's idea of spoliation is that if a highway robber meets him and relieves him of two-thirds of his portable property, leaving him one-third, that is not spoliation, but merely shows that the robber did not know his business. It may be, looking at it from the Welsh point of view, that the robber opposite does not know his business, and that it would have been very desirable, from the Welsh point of view, that he should have taken the lot, and then, I suppose, the hon. and gallant Gentleman would have agreed that it was spoliation. I am afraid he cannot be surprised if the Church of England in Wales or in England does not quite agree with his definition of what constitutes spoliation. To us it is spoliation if one sovereign is wrongly taken and 26,199 sovereigns are left. That would be spoliation to the extent of the sovereign that is taken. I have been trying to ascertain what is the real grievance of Welsh Nonconformists on this question of Disestablishment; I mean apart altogether from Disendowment. Wherein is the Welsh Nonconformist damnified by the establishment? What is the real ground for opposition to the Church and the strong claim for Disestablishment? The hon. and gallant Gentleman said he meant that there should be equal opportunity for all. What does he mean by that? That there should be an opportunity possibly for the Welsh Church ministers to go into the House of Lords along with the bishops? I should not object to that. Does he mean that there should be equal opportunity for the Welsh Nonconformist ministers to take a place in great services, such as those the Chancellor of the Exchequer alluded to this afternoon? The Established Church is no longer predominant in the Assize Court, in the celebration of the Investiture of the Prince of Wales at Carnarvon, nor on Mayor's Sunday, nor in any other Court or ceremonial function in Wales. I could not help asking myself where is the grievance.

What is it, from the point of view of the establishment, that the Nonconformists object to? There is a Church in each village; how will it be different? Suppose that the Church were disestablished but not disendowed—I agree that Disendowment is a different proposition. Suppose the bishops were no longer seated in the House of Lords, a privilege to which I attach no importance. Supposing the bishops and the clergy were no longer appointed by the Crown, but by synods. Supposing the clergy, instead of being appointed by Crown patronage, were; appointed by the bishops—what difference would it make to the Nonconformists in. Wales? The cathedrals would be there, the Churches would be there, the services would be there, the ministers of the Church would be there, only they would be ministers of a Disestablished, or I should prefer to call it a re-established; Church, and, as far as I can gather from the speeches which have been made, there would be no single difference in the life of any single Nonconformist in Wales even if the Church were disestablished in accordance with the provisions of this Bill. I should be most grateful if some supporter of the Bill would take this point and explain to us Churchmen what the real grievance is from the Disestablishment point of view—not from the Discndowment point of view. I listened to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which explains in very great measure the hold which he has on audiences outside the House, but which I did not think added to his reputation as a great Parliamentary orator. I could not help feeling that for a man in his position to make those unkind sneers at my hon. Friend (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen) in regard to his electoral experiences was hardly fair from the point of view of a man who has spent the last few years of his life bringing in measures hated by English people from the fastnesses of a Welsh constituency. In my belief he is going to legislate in a manner that English people strongly object to, and if he is going to poke sneers at my hon. Friend he might at least have tried the-effect from one of our big popular English constituncies, rather than sit for a place where he knows he cannot be turned out.

But what was his case against the Church from the Disestablishment point of view? He gave a long catalogue of the iniquities of the Church in the sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth centuries, and I am prepared to admit every word he said. I agree that the Church was dead, her ministers were absentees, her roofs were falling off, and her schools were empty, but the converse is true to-day. Her churches are rebuilt, her parsonage houses are inhabited, her schools are brimming over with pupils, communicants are there in larger numbers than ever, more and more children are being baptised, and more and more men and women are being confirmed in the fold of the Church. If the right hon. Gentleman had been able to tell us the converse, if he had been, able to. tell us that the Church in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries was a living and active Church, but that to-day it was a dead Church, if he had been able to tell us that the evils of the seventeenth century were the evils of to-day, I would not stand up in defence of the Church at all. I should say let judgment go. The speech was not argument; it was an appeal to prejudice by describing, for outside consumption, a state of things which the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well no longer exists in regard to the Church in Wales, which his great predecessor, Mr. Gladstone, and the present Prime Minister, have swept away once and for all in regard to the position of the Church to-day; and the only thing which can be said in support of his argument is that remarkable expression which was used by the Prime Minister when he made that glowing commendation of the action of the Church in Wales to-day, that the Church had changed, alas, too late! I never could understand the meaning of that expression "alas, too late!" Does the Prime Minister, does the Chancellor of the Exchequer, mean to deny to the Church the right of forgiving when it has changed its whole course, when it has changed from a dead Church to a living Church—that there is to be no forgiveness for the Church itself when forgiveness will be meted out by the humblest Nonconformist minister in Wales to any man who sins and asks for forgiveness? The Church is the only institution which is not to be forgiven. It will be found that the Church will prove by its life that it has sought and earned forgiveness.

The real argument which I have been trying to gather, and I think I have gathered, during the course of this Debate, is the argument founded on the demand of thirty-one Welshmen—and there is no other argument with regard to Disestablishment—the argument of nationality. It was set up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; it was set up by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Sir Ivor Herbert), who in almost his last words said he was a Nationalist. It was the argument, and almost the sole argument, set up by the Home Secretary on Tuesday last, and it is the argument that comes worst from the Liberal party at present. It is exactly the same argument that they are using with regard to Home Rule in Ireland. It is the demand of the Irish Members, therefore there must be Home Rule. It is the demand of the Welsh Members, therefore there must be Disestablishment. But how far is this to be carried? Why is this new spirit of Nationalism, which has only arisen as a factor in politics during the last twenty years, which only arose I believe, for the first time when Mr. Gladstone was seeking for reasons for Disestablishing the Irish Church, and when he needed the help of Mr. Parnell and his voters in 1885 and 1893—why is Nationalism to be confined to Ireland and Wales? Yorkshire is bigger than Wales; the population of Yorkshire is infinitely larger than that of Wales. London itself is more important than Wales. Is Yorkshire to have no national feeling? Is London to have no national feeling? Where are you to stop beyond that? Is England itself to have no national feeling? Are the rights of English nationality not to be considered? The party opposite is claiming these two great Bills on the ground of nationality. They say that we in England who represent the majority in England ought not to interfere with the Bills for Ireland and Wales, because they are demanded by the national spirit of Ireland and Wales respectively. Yet you are the Government who during the past five or six years have used the votes of Members from Ireland, Wales, and Scotland to attempt to destroy our national schools, and you are going to use these same votes next year to destroy our schools. You say to us, "What right have you to refuse the demand of Wales?" I say to you, "What right have you to use the votes of Scottish Members, who know nothing about and care less about the religious teaching in the Church schools in England, to attempt to destroy these schools next year?" If your argument is sound in regard to nationality in the one case, I venture to say it is equally sound in regard to English nationality and English schools.

We have heard this afternoon of this long drawn out demand of Welsh nationality. We have heard of numerous elections at which the people have voted in favour of Disestablishment. Why have you not given them Disestablishment before now? Why are you only giving it to them in 1912? I venture to suggest you could have given it in 1906. Everybody knew that you came in with a big majority in that year. You were then in a majority independent of the Welsh and Irish Members. It was not necessary then to comply with either of these national demands, but it happens to be necessary to-day for your continued existence as the party in power, and therefore we hear things which we did not hear in 1906 of the national demands both from Wales and Ireland.

Does the hon. Member suggest that we could have carried Welsh Disestablishment through the House of Lords in the 1906 Parliament?

You did not carry it through this House, and you have no right to suggest what the House of Lords would have done. You have never carried it through this House once. If you had carried it through this House a number of times, I think you would have been able to carry it through the House of Lords, as you think you are going to do this year or next year. I am not perfectly sure that you are going to carry it through now. I speak as an English Churchman because of the attempt made on my Church. The Church in Wales and in England is one Church. While you may have a right to Disestablish the whole Church, you have no right to dismember part of my Church without the .assent of the whole. The State has no right to take the Church, dismember it, and cut off part from the whole body. There you will find a difficulty. A speech was made by Mr. Gladstone in 1873 which has not yet been quoted in these Debates. I wish hon. Members opposite to take it to heart. He said:—

"There was complete constitutional, ecclesiastical, and legal, and I may add for every practical purpose, historical identity between the Church in Wales and the rest of the Church of England."

In 1881 he said:—

"I expect it will be found that the Church in Wales is so tied, knotted, and tangled in a multitude of ways to the general body that it would be a very formidable matter indeed to accomplish this untying process."

You will find that it is a formidable matter indeed to accomplish the untying or the cutting off, or to destroy the continuity which has existed for so many centuries between the Church in Wales and the Church in England. I want to consider some of the attacks which have been made on the Church in Wales. We have not heard so much during the last year or two of the old Liberationist theory that the State should have no control of religion because it is a secular body. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] There is somebody who still agrees with the old Liberationist theory—that the connection between Church and State is unholy, and that the State should not seek to be connected with the Church. That is not the argument we hear used to-day. The arguments to-day are nearly all directed against the Church because it is not as Nonconformist bodies are. For every argument used in this House, or out of it, on the old Liberationist basis, you will hear scores of speeches attacking the Church because it is not free and not representative, because its ministers are not as Nonconformist ministers are, and everywhere you will find that the ostensible object of Disestablishment is to reform the Church in the interest of the Church. Speeches by Members of this House could be quoted from which you would really think that, so far as they are concerned, they are seeking to do good to the Church and to put it more on an equality with, or in likeness to Nonconformist bodies. The "Daily News," for which I have some, but not very great, respect, published an article on Disestablishment, headed, "Lay Control Lost if the Bill is not passed." What has the "Daily News" got to do with lay control in the Church of England? Do you not think that Churchmen should have the control they want in their Church? Speaking at the Free Church Council at Cheltenham, Mr. Morgan Gibbon said:—

"The Welsh bishops had given no assistance whatever in the solution of this problem. They had made no response to offers of generous treatment. It was now time that the Welsh clergy spoke. If the clergy in Wales knew how fatally the system of the Establishment had worked, and how the exercise of episcopal patronage had crushed out individuality and reduced the Anglican pulpit to its low level of efficiency, a settlement was possible which would leave behind the minimum of bitterness and achieve the maximum of friendly agreement."

That is not Liberationism. It is a desire to reduce the Church in its essence to a pale likeness of Nonconformity. If the clergy know how fatally the system of patronage has worked, surely they would be the first to intervene? They would be the first to say, "We want the system done away with," but these men in the Church, who know what life is there in the Church are with half a dozen exceptions in favour of the continuation of the present position, and the laity of the Church are also in favour of it. A remark was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech this afternoon to the effect that the Church had no hold upon the people of Wales. I do not know whether it is Parliamentary to say that is not true, but in my experience that is certainly not true. I have spoken a great deal in Wales, and I am going to do myself the honour of speaking next month in the constituency of Merthyr. I venture to say that in the largest hall that can be found in that constituency there will be an assembly of Churchmen and Churchwomen upon whom the Church in Wales has got a hold and who are just as devoted to the Church as hon. Members opposite are to their Nonconformist Churches.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said the Roman Catholic Church might have a hold, Nonconformity might have a hold, but the Anglican Church could not, and never could, get a hold. I say it not only can but does get a hold of a large number of the people of Wales, as hon. Members would find if they would only attend some of the vast meetings which are held in Wales. The largest meeting I ever addressed was one of 10,000 Church people in Wales.

At Mountain Ash, and the people were as keen as Nonconformists could be in their devotion to their Church. We are told that the Established Church in Wales is an alien Church. We were told that by the hon. Member for Swansea in his speech the other day in regard to the language question. That question has been very little dealt with in the Debate, except by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said that the children in Wales are taken to Sunday School almost before they can lisp in their own wild language. Half of them never will lisp in their own wild language.

I do rejoice in it absolutely. I am here to say that the English language, which is the language of the future in the world, will be good enough for the people of Wales. Whether I rejoice in it or not will not affect the argument that of the population in Wales 85 per cent. speak English, while only 15 per cent. can speak or understand nothing but Welsh. An increasing proportion of them speak English. I agree that the Church should provide services in the Welsh language. The Nonconformists have increasingly provided services in the English language. The Report of the Commission makes it perfectly clear that the Church to-day makes ample provision for teaching and preaching in both languages. Out of 3,783 Sunday services 1,113 are in Welsh, and 228 are bilingual. The Report goes on to say:—

We are being asked to assimilate ourselves to the Nonconformist bodies. As a matter of fact it is the Nonconformist bodies who are gradually assimilating themselves to us in this very question of teaching and preaching in English. The Welsh Union deal with the inroad which the English language is making in Wales:

We are told we should consent to Disestablishment because we should be really better and happier if we adopted a voluntary system with regard to our ministry and our endowments. This voluntary system is one which is almost on the point of failure in Wales among the Nonconformists. You will find that Nonconformists themselves are gradually but slowly and surely coming along on the lines of the Church in regard to this voluntary system. Take, for instance, this one question of a resident clergy, a question-about which the hon. Member for Denbigh Boroughs (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) spoke so earnestly this afternoon, with regard to-the benefits to a parish from having an educated minister, of whatever denomination you like, resident in it. Nearly all our Church of England clergy in Wales are resident there. That is to my mind the I greatest benefit of the Established Church. A few years ago the Welsh Nonconformists gloried in the itinerating system in regard to their ministers. When this Bill was debated in this House in 1895 the present Prime Minister, who was then Home Secretary, answered a speech, I think it was of the Bishop of St. Asaph, in favour of resident clergy. He asked:—

All Methodists itinerate in Wales I agree. I do not know whether the hon. Member will include the Calvinistic Methodists.

Here is the evidence of one of the chief Calvinistic Methodist witnesses before the Commission.

The hon. Gentleman is only taking a single one of the denominations in Wales. Will he take the Methodists or the Independents, or any of the other denominations? He will find they always have a resident minister in the village.

I do not think that the hon. Member quite realises my point. I am not saying that some of the denominations have not resident clergy. I am not blaming them; I am rather applauding them for copying the policy of the Church.

The Calvinistic Methodists always had that policy from the commencement. That was their Church policy.

If the hon. Member refers to the evidence at Question 13834 of one of the chief Calvinistic Methodist ministers he will find the following statement:— He was asked—

A third aspect is the education of the ministry of the Nonconformist bodies. Forty or fifty years ago they were quite as earnest and as loyal and as God-fearing as they are to-day, but to-day they are being taught in their colleges the same high degree of education that Church ministers have. In other words, in that respect also they are copying the policy of the Church of England. It is proved by evidence given by Nonconformists themselves before the Commission that a distinct change has taken place and has been taking place during the last few years in the Welsh Nonconformist Church in favour of a resident ministry—a specialised, a trained, and an educated ministry. All these things demand, and necessarily demand, greater expenditure of funds. All these things are crying out for Nonconformity, for endowment funds, for sustentation funds. You had that magnificent appeal made by the Wesleyan body a few years ago in this country for a million sterling. What for? Not to be spent during the current year, but to be the basis of an endowment.

I am a member of that Church, and in no sense is that money an endowment fund. It was used entirely for progressive purposes.

Of course, if the hon. Member means that it was all spent and that it is not going to be invested, I will take it. I did not think it was so. I thought that a large portion of that money was being invested, and the income of it was being used for various purposes.

That certainly does not apply to the Sustentation Fund. Efforts are being made in all quarters of England and Wales to provide funds which will be increasingly needed by Nonconformist bodies. No one suggests that they do not want endowment, and while they are becoming increasingly akin to the policy of the Church and formulating endowments of their own, this is the time when a Nonconformist demand is arising in Wales for the disendowment of the English Church. If you could have made out a single case for the malversation of funds, if you could have made out a case after all these endowments have been held for two or three hundred years—[an HON. MEMBER: "Eight or nine hundred year's."]—and in two or three hundred years I hope and trust the Nonconformist bodies will still be in existence, and when the Secularists and the Atheists come to claim your endowments you will be satisfied to say, "We have held our endowments for two or three hundred years. We have not used them wrongly "—but if you could say of the Church that there had been any malversation of funds, that any endowments were used for improper purposes and not for working in the cause of God, then you might have some claim to disendow it as well as disestablish it. No one has suggested that. No one suggests anything about these funds except taking them away from God. I would sooner the Nonconformist body took them and used them in the cause of God than that they were used for dust destructors and parish nurses and things of that kind. Whether the Church be one-third or one-fourth or whatever it may be in any religious census, it is to-day growing more than the Nonconformist body. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] During the last five years, in spite of your Welsh Revival—

Because of it If you like, because when you stir up people to a sense of their duty towards God they come on to the Church. If you have done some spade work those men who are stirred up by your eloquence and your revivals have come on to the Church. During the last five years the Church has increased her communicants by nearly 20,000 souls. The Sunday School scholars have increased by almost the same number, while the Nonconformist Churches have decreased by nearly double that. I do not gloat over it in any sense of the word, but I wonder where they have gone? The population has not decreased, and these people can have gone in only one of two directions—either to infidelity or to the Church.

Nonconformist bodies have decreased in number. Take any annual gathering you like of Nonconformists, you will find that they complain of diminution of membership. I think many of those who have left Nonconformist bodies have come to the Church, though I fear that many have slipped away to the common enemy of both Church and Chapel—either to infidelity or, what is equally bad, indifferentism to all forms of religion. I feel that hon. Members opposite should join us in meeting the common foe, and leave the Church to do the good work it is doing. But I would sooner that they should attack the Church openly than that they should pretend to want to disestablish it for its own good. I would sooner have an open enemy like the Chancellor of the Exchequer in those days when he used lurid language, and described the clergy of the Church as "a horde of raiders," than the enmity of the present Under-Secretary, who in his speech a few years ago, and in his speech last October, said it would be a great thing to free the Church, to unbind the fetters which now attach her to the State, and to give the congregations a voice in the selection of their ministers, When the Church wants reform it can ask for it from within; when it thinks that these things will be for its good, it can demand them and get them; but we do not want the nauseating hypocrisy, of men who are enemies of the Church, coming with a Bill to disestablish and disendow it, and, at the same time, pretending that it is really for the spiritual welfare of the Church.

I have listened to the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and although I do not agree with one single word that he said from beginning to end, but dissent most strongly, yet the speech I think was worthy of him and worthy of any Member of this House. While I was glad to hear the voice, yet it is a voice from the long past—a voice showing that spirit of hard and unsympathetic race supremacy which is at the bottom of a great number of Welsh problems, of Irish problems, and Scotch problems. He said he would rejoice at the disappearance of the Welsh language. I think that was a piece of Philistinism of the most unimaginative kind. When a man who knows nothing of the spirit of Wales or of the conditions of life in Wales, when a man knows, nothing of the history of Wales or of the Welsh language, says that he would be glad of the disappearance of the Welsh language, it is difficult to conceive that he should be guilty of the utterance of such a sentiment. The most sacred and noble monuments of Wales are inscribed in the Welsh language, which is sneered and jeered at. The reason why the Church in Wales has failed in the past, and is failing to-day, is that it has never understood the hold which the Welsh language has had upon the profoundest and most exalted thoughts of the people of Wales.

Fifteen per cent.? There are over a million to-day who speak the Welsh language.

Does that matter? Does the hon. Gentleman mean to say that simply because half the people of Wales speak Welsh that they are not to be considered? Is the fact that a man speaks Welsh as well as English to put him outside the pale, and that he is not to be considered by this House? In the Welsh language have been written some of the greatest hymns; in it are expressed some of the finest spiritual emotions. The man who sneers and jeers at the Welsh language is not one who can be heard with patience, or as having any weight, by any section of this House.

The hon. and learned Member will forgive me. I think he is a little harsh in his description of my argument. My argument was that it was no longer necessary to the Church or to anybody to have services in Welsh, because 85 per cent, of Welshmen understand the English language. I have no hostility to the Welsh language. All I say is that it is desirable that all Welsh people should speak the great English language. I have no objection, of course, to their speaking Welsh.

I ask the hon. Member whether he rejoiced that the Welsh language was disappearing, and he said "Yes," and that the English language was good enough for Wales. Therefore I said his remark was illustrative of Philistinism.

It is indicative of the way in which the whole question is opposed. What the hon. Member said was that he rejoiced in the disappearance of the Welsh language, because English was good enough for Wales. I say that some of the finest things have been written in the Welsh tongue and cherished for many generations; some of the finest hymns that the world has seen, some of the finest bits of literature that have been produced for the last two or three hundred years, are enshrined in the Welsh tongue. That is the spirit in which the hon. Gentleman approaches this question. He said the claim of Wales was put forward on this sole ground—I submit a substantial and sufficient ground—that thirty-one out of thirty-four Members have been sent to this House to demand this measure. I do not care to enter into controversies as to whether the Church or Nonconformity is at the present time making the greater progress. If the Church could claim to have half the people of Wales as its supporters it makes no difference to this argument. It is irrelevant, because the hon. Members who advance it are on the horns of a dilemma. If half the people of Wales belong to the Church, then tens of thousands of them voted for Disestablishment at each election. If that be the argument, I claim that not only Welsh Nonconformists, but a great number of Welsh Churchmen, are in favour of Disestablishment. There are three Members on these benches who are as good Churchmen, and as honest and loyal Churchmen, as the hon. Member opposite.

The hon. Member advanced the old argument that Wales is not a nation, that she has no right to special treatment, and that she ought to be regarded as part of England. We repudiate that entirely. I say that it is the people of Wales who ought to be consulted in a matter of this kind, and not the people of England. I heard the hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire (Sir A. Cripps) the other night say that the English people as well as the Welsh people were interested because it was their Church. Of course, I agree that English Churchmen may have their feelings hurt if the Church in Wales is Disestablished, as her feelings were injured when the Irish Church was Disestablished in 1868. But I submit that the feeling in England has nothing to do with the question at all; it is the people of Wales who are to be consulted, for it is they who have to suffer or benefit. They are the people who would be directly affected by Disestablishment, and not English Churchmen like the hon. Gentleman who spoke last. I claim, therefore, that it is the voice of the people of Wales that ought to be listened to in this matter. And how, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said this afternoon, can you in any other constitutional way than by looking at the Parliamentary representation of Wales, decide what the wishes of the Welsh people are in this matter. When you get such an overwhelming preponderance as a representation of thirty-one out of thirty-four, how can you, if you believe in representative government at all, refuse and resist this Welsh demand. It is not only the majority inside this House, but the tremendous majorities by which those men have been returned that ought to be looked to. Three hon. Gentlemen sit in this House from Wales who are pledged to vote against this Bill; they were returned by an aggregate majority of about 350. The thirty-one Liberal and Labour Members are all pledged to Disestablishment. Even the hon. Member for South Glamorganshire and the junior Member for Merthyr, and every Labour candidate, as well as every Liberal candidate in Wales is pledged to Disestablish- ment. Those thirty-one Disestablishment Members returned at the last election, to take the most favourable instance to the Opposition, were returned not by a majority of 350, but by an aggregate majority of 110,000, and if you distribute that majority over the thirty-one Members you will find that there is an average majority of over 3,000, whereas the three Members who represent anti-Disestablishment here are returned by an average majority of a little over 100.

"Oh, yes," but we are told by the hon. Member for Denbigh, in a remark interjected last Tuesday, and I am not sure that he did not repeat it to-day, and it has been repeated in some form or another on a thousand Church Defence platforms that "only four or five of the Welsh Members mentioned Disestablishment in their election addresses." [An HON. MEMBER: "Eight."] That may do for Church Defence platforms, but it will not do, I venture to say, in a House composed of practical politicians. Everyone knows that before a man is selected to fight as a Liberal or Labour candidate he has to be adopted by an organisation, and no man, whether he be a Liberal candidate or a Labour candidate, could hope to be selected as a candidate at all by the organisation unless he is known to be perfectly loyal and firm on the question of Disestablishment. I have issued, I believe, four election addresses, and my recollection is that in two, if not in three, of those four election addresses, I never mentioned Disestablishment. Why? Because it was taken for granted. I do not know what the experience of hon. Gentlemen from Ireland is, but I never heard it advanced in this House even by the most extremist partisan, that the Nationalist Members from Ireland did not represent the demand for Home Rule, and that they are not sent here by their constituents to get Home Rule, and yet I wonder, though I never had the curiosity to inquire, how many of the Nationalist Members from Ireland go through the formality of mentioning Home Rule in their election addresses, election after election. I should be very much surprised if I found that one-fourth of them did so.

Exactly. And what Home Rule is in Ireland, Disestablishment is in Wales. There is no more need for a Welsh Liberal or Labour candidate to mention Disestablishment in his address than there is for Nationalist Members in Ireland to mention Home Rule. I can quite understand that the argument that there is an overwhelming majority both inside and outside this House, might not avail the Disestablishment cause if there was any fear or any ground for apprehending that the majority was transient and might disappear in a short time, but that is not the case here. I was reading this week what was written by the right, hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) as long ago as February, 1887, in the Baptist Magazine, that was after the Home Rule split, and this is what he said of Welsh Disestablishment:— and of uncharitableness in bringing forward this claim. If such motives were at the root of our demand for Disestablishment, would we not in 1887 have followed the Nonconformist Leader and not the High Anglican who was opposed to Disestablishment. I say that it is an ungenerous and unfounded taunt on the part of hon. Gentlemen opposite to say a word against Welshmen or of the righteousness or rectitude or motives or the aims of the Welsh people.

As long ago as 1895 a Welsh Disestablishment Bill was read a second time in this House. I remember hearing the Debate on that Second Reading, and I can still almost recall the words, the eloquently passionate words uttered from the opposite bench by the then Sir Michael Hicks-Beach and Sir Edward Clarke. An appeal was made to Parliament to stay its hand. Here we had, they said, an ancient Church which has only recently awakened from the sloth and lethargy of the ages. She has, they admitted, neglected her duty for centuries, during the sixteenth, the seventeenth, and the eighteenth centuries. At last she is awakening to the greatness and nobility of her mission. She is regaining lost ground. Postpone Disestablishment for a very few years and you will find that the Welsh people will be reconciled to the ancient historic Church of the country. That was the substance of the appeal made by eloquent speakers on that side of the House seventeen years ago. What has happened since? In 1895, out of thirty-four Members from Wales there were thirty-one pledged to Disestablishment. Seventeen years have elapsed— seventeen years of increasing activity and beneficient work, as we have been told, on the part of the Church. What is the position to-day? Again thirty-one Members out of thirty-four are returned to demand from Parliament this tardy measure of justice to Wales. The only difference is that they have been sent here year by year, election after election, by ever-increasing majorities. I am informed that the hon. Member for Dudley (Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen) used the recent by-election in my Constituency as illustrating the alleged fact that Disestablishment is losing its hold on the people of Wales. The first election I fought was in 1906, when even the Montgomery boroughs were won for Liberalism by the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir J. D. Rees). [An HON. MEMBER: "On Disestablishment?"] Yes. The hon. Member was one of the few Welsh Members who mentioned Disestablishment in his election address, and people who have gone through elections will probably know the reason why.

At the flood tide of Liberalism in 1906 the majority in my Constituency was 2,000. Four years later there was a difference of 200. At both those elections the gentlemen who were contesting the seat against me, excellent and estimable though they were, were strangers to the constituency. They had never been heard of a week before the election, and they were never heard of a week after. I do not say it in any offensive way, but they were what are generally termed carpet-baggers. At the last election I had for the first time to fight a three-cornered contest. That did not materially affect the result, because the Gentleman who called himself a Labour candidate polled only 149 votes. I have no doubt whatever that the increased activity of the Church did count for something in the election. It would be folly on my part not to say so. The constituency consists of two towns, one an industrial town and the other an old-fashioned county town. In the county town I have no doubt whatever that owing to Disestablishment I lost votes which had been given in my favour at preceding elections. But this is the sort of appeal that was made by the clergy of the town at Carmarthen. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are not political."] No, but they were preaching political sermons every Sunday, and they sent emissaries to every Nonconformist chapel on the eve of the poll to find out whether there were any references to politics in the chapels, and they had to admit that there was not a single reference made. A circular was sent out by Archdeacon Evans, the great protagonist of the Church Defence Party. I will not weary the House by reading the whole of it; I will give a sample of the sort of thing that was sent out by the Archdeacon and his confreres in the town on the eve of the election. I would ask hon. Gentlemen who have been so much in the habit of talking about political dissent to consider the sentences that I will cite. After quoting three verses from the New Testament, they go on to say:—

"Are the proposals of the Government consistent "with the commands of the Gospel? This is not a matter for the State alone. Christ himself is not indifferent. Do these proposals meet with His approval, or with His disapproval? It must be one or the other He is not indifferent."

Will a single Member of this House get up and defend a circular of that sort? These are the weapons with which the Church was being defended in my Constituency during the recent by-election. But I do not think that that accounted for many votes. The more important reason was that on this occasion I had against me as my opponent a very popular local employer, a gentleman whose firm employs 800 workers, and naturally that had something to do with the result.

No, he is going to fight again, and I am very glad. We had a very amiable and amicable contest, and I am sure that, as long as he is my opponent, we shall conduct our elections in exactly the same spirit. But with the exception of the great year 1906, and what I may call the fluke of 1910, the majority I had at the last election was greater than had ever been cast for a Liberal in the constituency since the Home Rule split. I Would not hon. Gentlemen opposite be satisfied with the small majority that I had last time—1281? I am perfectly certain that the three hon. Members who represent Welsh Conservatism here—the hon. Member for Montgomery Boroughs (Colonel Pryce-Jones), whom, apart from politics, we are glad to see in this House, the hon. Member for Cardiff (Lord N, Crichton-Stuart), and the hon. Member for Denbigh Boroughs (Mr. Ormsby-Gore)—would be very glad to exchange their majorities for mine. I apologise to the House, for I did not mean to go on so long with my own experiences. But before I sit down I do want to make one reference to a matter which has been raised on many a Church defence platform, and which has been suggested, perhaps rather insinuated than suggested, in the course of Debate here. It was also definitely stated in a leading article in yesterday's "Times." The English people were there told that when this Bill becomes law there will be no spiritual provision made in scores and hundreds of Welsh parishes. I will read the extract from the leading article in the "Times." [HON. MEMBERS: "We agree."] I do not think that the writer can be one of the regular staff of the "Times." He says:— Just imagine, "in hundreds of Welsh parishes it is the only provision"! There are not more than a thousand parishes in the whole of Wales. I suppose if you put the lowest possible figure as explaining the word "hundreds" you must take two hundred. There are 200 parishes in Wales, according to the Church defenders, where there is no spiritual provision made except by the Church. If this Bill becomes law and the Church disappears, one-fifth of the whole of Wales will be pagan. That is what was said yesterday in one of our Tory newspapers. A more gross perversion of the true facts of the case could not be imagined. If it is meant that there is no resident minister, why did not the writer say so? The implication is quite patent, and it is that if the Church were not to be maintained in these hundreds of parishes these poor people, in the desolate, inhospitable regions of Wales, would be left without any spiritual instruction at all. A more gross travesty, a more cruel slander, on the devotion of the Welsh people to spiritual causes has never been uttered or written even in a Tory newspaper. What are the facts? We heard the Home Secretary give some of them the other day. What has happened in Glamorganshire will be within the recollection of the House after what the right hon. Gentleman said. The Congregationalists alone have made twice the provision of the Church of England for the influx of the new population during the last fifty years. In. the diocese of St. David's, the oldest, or one of the oldest, established sees in Wales —the see of the patron saint of Wales— there is only provision for something like 20 per cent, of the population. Who provides for the others?

We need not go into the industrial districts in order to see what spiritual provision has been made by the Nonconformists. Go into rural Wales. What do you see? Not the spire of a Church, as suggested by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Denbigh, but the square-fronted little Bethel. Ugly and unadorned it may be, but it stands an eternal monument to the devotion of the Welsh people to the cause of true religion. It is true that you will not find in every Welsh parish a resident Nonconformist minister. But those gentlemen who have instructed Englishmen to make use of that argument know full well the fallacy of it, though hon. Members opposite use it with perfect sincerity. The conception of the ministry amongst the Nonconformists is not the same as that which obtains among Churchmen. The parson of the parish is the only instrument that Churchmen acknowledge and recognise for spiritual purposes. He is the priest, the only one who can administer the Sacrament. He is the only one who can give the last rites to the sick; he is the one set aside to visit the poor; he is the priest, the central figure in the Anglican polity. That is not the case with the Nonconformists. The theory of the Congregationalist and Baptist is that every member is a priest; every member can be called upon by any Church to administer the Sacrament. It may be that for the1 sake of greater order and seemliness it has become more and more the custom to set apart one man for all this work, but there is no distinction in the Nonconformist idea between the member who administers the Sacrament and the member who does not. Each man is a potential priest.

In the Nonconformist Churches it is enjoined as a sacred duty and obligation, not only for the minister, not only for the deacons or the elders: every member of the Church takes upon himself the great obligation when he becomes a member of it—the religious duties of visiting the sick and the poor, and, if necessary, conducting a prayer meeting or conducting service on the Sunday. That is perfectly well known to the Bishop of St. David's. He was brought up amongst Methodists himself. I do not say that in despite, but he was brought up in a Nonconformist denomination long enough to understand the polity of Nonconformists, and he knows perfectly well that such a statement as I read from the "Times" newspaper, that because there is no resident minister in the parish the Nonconformists make no spiritual provision for that parish, is a travesty and a mockery of the truth. Having intimate knowledge of rural Wales, I say that this House need be in no fear that any portion of Wales will be left derelict or without religious ministrations if this Bill is passed.

One of the most abiding memories that every man who has been brought up in rural Wales has is this: the devotion with which the ordinary members of our Nonconformist Churches carry out their duties-of visiting the sick and the poor, conducting religious observances when called upon, and so on. It is a cruel insult to the Welsh people to say that in hundreds of parishes in Wales outside the Established Church they provide no sort of spiritual provision for the people who dwell there. I should have liked to have said a word or two on the historical aspect of the affair, but I only say this in regard to the controversy about the twelfth century. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Denbigh, in replying just now to the Home Secretary, instanced the fact that certain Welsh Bishops had been consecrated by the Archbishop of Canterbury about the ninth century. He seemed to think therefore that he had controverted what was said by the right hon. Gentleman. He seemed to think that long before that the Welsh Church was united to the see of Canterbury. Nothing of the sort. Before the twelfth century the Welsh bishops were selected for their post by the Welsh clergy and chaplains.

After the twelfth century they were selected, not by the Welsh clergy and Chapter, but by the English Bishops or the Archbishop of Canterbury, as the case might be, and it was the root of the whole matter that it was done for a political end. The change was brought about, not in order to keep up the religious life of Wales but in order to provide an additional instrument for the conquest of Wales by force of arms. That was admitted quite frankly by the Archbishop of that time, who wrote a letter about the year 1200 to Pope Innocent III., defending the absorption of the Welsh dioceses into the Province of Canterbury, and was this—I am quoting from memory—that unless the barbarity of these fierce and rebellious people was curbed by ecclesiastical censure the peace and quiet of England would be disrupted. That is the reason why the four Welsh sees were added to the Province of Canterbury, and that is my answer to the hon. Gentleman who spoke last when he says that the objects to the dismemberment of the Province of Canterbury. I say the Province of Canterbury existed for centuries without the Welsh sees at all. Some of the greatest Archbishops of Canterbury lived before they had any jurisdiction over the Welsh sees. Augustine and Dunstan and Lanfranc knew nothing of the Welsh sees. It was only late in the history of the Province of Canterbury, and much later in the history of the British Church, that this amalgamation was brought about. Therefore it is no dismemberment of "an integral part," as it is sometimes called, of the Province of Canterbury; it is simply restoring that province to its old historical and natural limits.

I say English Churchmen have no right to consider that they are injured, because we in Wales say that a wrong has been done and perpetuated for all those centuries and that it should be remedied in those days. Wales has been represented in the House of Commons for nearly 400 years. Welsh Members have sat here side by side with English Members for a longer time than the Members from any other nationality in the United Kingdom. We have taken our part in building up the Constitution and building up the Empire which is the glory of England. We have been always law abiding, always loyal to the King. We have never impeded the success of British arms or done anything except to help in every way in our power the success of English civilisation and culture. We have never before this, in all those long years, put forward any separate political demand for Wales, and I say when Englishmen come to judge our claims they might consider what the history of Englishmen in regard to Establishment has been. This is not the first time that England has tried, unwisely, as I think, and unwisely as the best men in England have thought, to foist an Anglican Establishment on countries with a different history and different temperament and different genius from that of England. In the time of the Tudors and Stuarts the great aim and object of English policy was to reduce all the nations that compose the United Kingdom of the day to one dead level of uniformity, to do away with different languages, different institutions, and different customs; and in the Act of Union with Wales you will find that specially mentioned as one of the reasons which induced the English Legislature of that time to do so. They were told that they must extirpate all singular usages and languages, and so on, and make Wales, Scotland, and Ireland the same. The English land system was introduced in Wales as well as Ireland. That was the policy, and as part of that policy English Statesmen tried to impose the Anglican Church upon those countries. The most organised and strongest and one of the greatest centres of nationality and unity was Scotland, and the experiment received short shrift at the hands of Scotland. Laud, Charles II., Lauderdale, and Claverhouse tried by force of arms and at the point of the sword to make Scotland accept the Anglican Establishment, but in 1688 the Anglican Establishment was done away with for ever, so far as Scotland was concerned, and whatever may be said to-day of the Scotch Established Church it is of Scotch origin and it has contained within its fold some of the greatest .Scotsmen and the finest and greatest national leaders Scotland has ever had. The Anglican Establishment ceased there in 1688.

9.0 p.m.

Ireland was neither so prosperous nor so organised, and it had to wait for nearly two hundred years before a measure of justice was meted out to it. In 1869 this House granted to Ireland what the Parliament of 1688 had granted to Scotland. Now Wales has come. Wales was the most insignificant part of the United Kingdom in the seventeenth century; its population hardly came to a quarter of a million, it had no schools, no education, no printing press, no national institutions; it was an unorganised and disorganised community, and, indeed, one cannot read contemporary authors without coming to the conclusion that it had no religion either. Wales was a thing of no account during the seventeenth and eighteenth and greater part of the nineteenth centuries. Then Nonconformity took Wales in hand, and it created a nation out of bond slaves. It created a literature, which, within its limits, is as fine and as noble a literature as can be found in any language. It created a system of education second to none. It made a nation out of the few scattered, humble folk of no account who used to live among the hills and valleys of Wales. And, immediately that Wales became a nation with two millions of people or more it demanded that it should be heard at the Bar of Parliament and the first demand that it has made is not for any selfish interests of her own, but in order that she may have religious equality and religious liberty. This is her demand, and it has been made for many years, and persisted in through many elections. I do not know what may be the fate of this Bill. I know this, that until this demand of Wales is satisfied Wales will keep knocking at the door of Parliament. Whatever betide, I believe firmly in the sense of justice which animates England. That sense of justice, which granted that boon to rebellious Scotland and discontented Ireland—generations and centuries ago, will not fail Wales in this crisis, and Wales will be free from the only alien establishment that remains in this part of the civilised world.

I rise with the greatest pleasure on this occasion because this is the first speech I have made since my return from my home. I always speak with a great sense of responsibility in such an illustrious Chamber as the British House of Commons, and I do not think I have ever risen with feelings of greater responsibility than I do on the present occasion. I desire to speak for a minority in Wales, a minority of men and women who have a great cause at heart. There are only three representatives of the minority in Wales in the House of Commons, but if the representation happened to be according to the number of votes, that minority would be entitled to at least eight or nine representatives. I am sorry to have to go into the personal pronoun, but in order to make my argument clear, I have got to do so. In the year 1906 I was defeated by eighty-three votes, and in the year 1910 I was defeated by only thirteen votes. Now if it had not been for eight Liberal Churchmen who lived at Llanidloes, to my own knowledge I should have had the honour of being a Member of the last House of Commons. Those Liberal Churchmen were told by the Liberal candidate and his supporters that the Welsh Church was not in danger, and we used all the pressure we could to get those eight Liberal Churchmen to vote for us and our cause, but we failed, and they voted for the candidate who won the election by thirteen votes.

I am convinced that if the Welsh people, not merely Churchmen, but Nonconformists as well, were asked whether they approved of this Bill, with my knowledge of Wales I can say that there would not be a majority who would vote for it. I know that a case may be made out for Disestablishment. I know it does seem hard and wrong that one particular branch of Protestantism, or even of Catholicism, should be represented in our Second Chamber, and that other equally important religious bodies should be unrepresented. If Disestablishment merely meant that I cannot for one moment think that tolerant Churchmen, Catholics, and even Nonconformists would object to it, but when it comes to Disendowment and taking away money—it may be admitted that this money in the past may not have been properly spent and that the Church may not have properly come into possession of it—money which it has enjoyed for hundreds of years, it is another matter. The Church that is using this money is doing great and splendid work which is admitted not only by Churchmen, but by Nonconformists. and by the people generally, and I cannot see where justice comes in and what the object can be in taking away the Endowments from a Church that has been doing such work and which really can do with more funds. I cannot believe that even in the House of Commons hon. Members who represent all parts of the Kingdom will treat a little minority in Wales in this way and allow this Bill to slip through, thus depriving the Welsh Church, this Christian missioner, of funds which are already little enough. I do not believe that the House of Commons will ever do that.

I was a regular attendant in the House of Commons for ten years, and as an old Member I appeal to hon. Members opposite to do me the honour of reading my haphazard remarks during the next few days. I know how difficult it is to go against the Government, and how difficult it is not to follow the lead of a popular Whip, but there is another way of responding to my appeal. There are present Liberal Churchmen who are not in earnest and who do not believe in taking away all our Endowments. I make an appeal to those Liberal Churchmen and to the Labour Members, and to all those who sympathise with minorities and religious bodies, to go to the Whips and tell them, "We cannot agree to support this Bill, and we shall accept some of the Amendments moved from the other side of the House." This Disestablishment and Disendowment Bill is not introduced by the Government with a sincere heart. They have no enthusiasm for it. They are not going to benefit Wales by it, and Wales has always been celebrated for its love of religion and education. Friendly feeling between Nonconformity and the Church in Wales has never been better than it has been for the last few years. I know it would be a difficult thing to get up a Disestablishment and Disendowment meeting in Wales against the Welsh Church were it not for the political aspect of the question. Thanking the House for being so indulgent, I shall conclude with a protest on behalf of the Church minority and on behalf of Nonconformists in Wales against this Bill, and I hope the House of Commons will rise to its great position and treat the part of the Church in Wales with magnificent generosity.

The hon. Baronet who has just sat down, in making an appeal on behalf of a minority, attempted to persuade the Labour Members of this House to join in some kind of conspiracy to vote against the Welsh Disestablishment and Disendowment Bill. Will the hon. Gentleman permit me to say that while minorities have rights, the rights of the minorities must always be less than the rights of majorities; and it is because the people of Wales by a majority have constantly and persistently for many years appealed in a constitutional way for this measure of reform that we find ourselves to-night considering the First Reading of this important Bill. Listening to the discussion, I am forced to the conclusion that hon. Members are making this a religious much more than a political controversy. This is not a religious proposition at all; it is a political proposition to give equality of treatment to all the citizens of a nation. Wales is a nation, and she has spoken in the only way in which she can speak to this House by returning Members to it, and she has been consistent in her appeal to Parliament to give her a measure of Disestablishment and Disendowment. I find from the returns in the Report of the Royal Commission that the communicants of all denominations in Wales number 743,361, and out of that total the communicants of the Church number 193,081. I ask the House what is the case for the continuation in a privileged position of one special denomination out of all the religious denominations in the Principality? A nation has no right to have favourites, either in men or in institutions, and it is because the Established Church enjoys a favoured position, if not at the expense of the other denomination, it is, at any rate, an advantage which is not given to the other denominations.

The proposition now is that all the other denominations should be established and endowed. That is a delightful proposition, which I am sure would find favour in many quarters in the Principality, but when we as a Labour party come here and ask for money for social reform, the Chancellor of the Exchequer always warns us not to use too much of the nation's resources in that direction, and I have no doubt, if we came here with a proposition to establish and endow all the religions in the Principality, we should be told it was not a practicable proposition because the nation could not find the money. I make no attack upon the Church of England in Wales. One pleasant feature of the Report of the Royal Commission is that it demonstrates the fact that in recent years the Church has become a live and active religious organisation, and I say to the Anglican Church in Wales, "The stronger you get, the better men like myself will be pleased." In these days of hard materialism, when pounds, shillings, and pence seem to be the dominating factors in human life, we can do no nation a greater ill-service than to attempt to reduce the power of its religious organisations. I am not supporting this measure because it is going to reduce religious power, but because it is going to create religious equality by a political measure, which is the only way it can be done. I am a Nonconformist and make no secret of it. I am very proud of the fact. In my Constituency, however, there are a number of Anglican Churches, as there are in the constituencies of other Labour Members.

Some time ago there was a dispute on Church policy in a Church in my Constituency. High ritualists presumably were practising some kind of religious service with which a number of Low Church communicants were in disagreement. They tried themselves to correct their grievance, but failed, and they wrote to me and said: "Will you do something to put an end to these practices in our Church, which are an offence to us as communicating Church people?" I had to write back and say if they wanted the power to deal with these matters, it was not seemly they should come to me, but that they should support a measure of Disestablishment and Disendowment, which would give them the right to manage the Church in their own way, as I took part in the management of the Church and denomination to which I belong. When I come to Disendowment, I am dealing with a rather more difficult and certainly more complex proposition, but to say we are out for "robbery" and "spoliation" is to misconceive the whole of the agitation behind this demand. We are not out asking for any money for Nonconformist purposes. We want none of the Church of England money for our own denominations. We have supported our denominations in the past and we shall support them again. We are simply out to say to the Anglican Church, "You have no right to some of the endowments which you are enjoying, and to the degree that you are favoured you are a favoured minority within the State." I would not support a policy of robbery. Wales and Welsh Members of Parliament and the Welsh communities, are not out asking for Disendowment of the Church for monetary gain. It is said that we are to have no regard to any of the legacies left to the Church by her devout sons and daughters. Speaking for myself, I will not cast a vote in this House of Commons for any measure that is going to interfere with, and take away from the. Anglican Church, any legacy left to her by her devout sons and devout daughters. If any hon. Gentleman will prove to me when this Bill is in Committee that it is going to take away the Endowments left, not by the' State, but by people who desired to support their own particular religious denomination, if he will show me that any Section of this Bill is going to interfere with such legacies, then I assure the House that it will not have my support. But it is because I believe that a. great amount of this money has been voted by the State—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] Well, you object to bring up the records to this House to demonstrate your legal and moral right to these Endowments. This is the place to come to. It is all very well for the hon. Member to go down to a meeting at Mountain Ash. He tells the House that he has never seen such a meeting before and that they had special trains running from various parts of Wales to bring people there. That shows the power of the Church as a political organisation, as well as a religious organisation. I should like to say to the hon. Gentleman that when we ask for the House of Commons to be the platform to test the Church of England's right to these Endowments it is not with the view of taking away what belongs to the Church, but with the view of giving to the nation what really belongs to the nation. I gather from some of the speeches made here that this demand on the part of Wales for Welsh Disestablishment and Disendowment is to be treated as a demand made to reduce the religious power of the Anglican Church. Hon. Gentlemen with a kind of grace peculiarly their own in political controversy cannot conceive that a man may be an honest man and disagree with their point of view. The way they receive any suggestion not in conformity with their way of thinking suggests, as the hon. Member for Carmarthen Boroughs (Mr. Llewelyn Williams) said, that there is a kind of arrogant treatment of men who do not agree with them which is bound to end in embittering this controversy. So far as I am concerned, I endeavour to keep out of religious controversy so far as possible. If passion is allowed a free reign such controversies will become very bitter indeed; but I ask the House of Commons whether we are right or wrong in our proposition to take it that it is a proposal made by honest men on behalf of honest people who believe, and have believed for generations, in the righteousness and justice of Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Anglican Church. However much they may treat with hilarity what may be said from Members on this side of the House, whether above or below the Gangway, let me say this: This is not a new experiment. It was tried in Ireland, and one of the greatest protagonists in the House of Commons against the Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Irish Church was the late Colonel Saunderson. Yet, after experiencing a Church free, he placed it on record that he found the Church was so much more powerful as a Church free than as a Church shackled by the State that if he could undo the votes given against Irish Disestablishment and Disendowment in the House of Commons he would willingly undo those votes. The House of Commons cannot afford to ignore testimony of that kind. Whether hon. Gentlemen like us to say it or not, I do desire to say it for myself, and for those in whose name I speak, that we believe the Anglican Church in Wales as a free religious organisation, taking its part side by side with other demoninations in the Principality, would be able to form such an army for righteousness that Wales would be all the better for having this measure carried into law. My last word is that in this controversy I hope bitterness will be kept out of the question as far as possible. Let the proposition be tested as all other political propositions ought to be, and, inasmuch as this proposal to Disestablish and Disendow the Welsh Church is a political proposition, it cannot with truth be placed on record against us that we desire to reduce the religious power and strength of the Anglican Church in Wales.

The hon. Member for South Glamorgan will, I am sure, acquit me of discourtesy if instead of attempting to reply to particular points be has raised I proceed at once to deal .in so far as I can with the general case presented by the Government in support of their Bill. I have to leave the Govern- ment time to reply, and we are to divide to-night. Now that hon. Members for Ireland who belong to the Nationalist party have concluded their business in Dublin the House of Commons at Westminster is at liberty to vote on the proposals of the Government. We are once more a quorum. We have to judge of two proposals, to both of which we are inflexibly opposed, and which seem to us to be perfectly distinct the one from the other. First, there is the proposal that the Church should be Disestablished in the four Welsh dioceses. To that we are opposed. But I think all who have spoken on one side or the other on that subject have found it somewhat difficult to explain exactly what they mean by Disestablishment, because few people have been able to define what they mean by Establishment. I associate myself with the Home Secretary's regret for the absence of the Prime Minister if only for this reason, that he, so far as I know, is the only person who has set himself to the task of defining what Establishment by law means now. He did that in 1895, and he said that it consisted of three things. In the first place, Establishment by law of the Church means now—I will quote his words if I may, but paraphrasing them—that the Government of the Church and discipline of the Church can in the last resort be enforced by civil process. Yon do change that, but only to restore it. Let that be understood. In this very Bill the words which Disestablish the Church are, I gather from the description of it, followed by words which show that in the last resort the discipline of the Church and the Government of the Church in those four dioceses is to be enforced by civil process. They are to be bound by an implied contract which you impute to them in this Bill. If they break that implied contract it can be enforced. What is the difference in substance? By that implied contract they will be bound by the Thirty-nine Articles, which contain animadversions upon the faith of many hon. Members who are going to vote for this Bill which can only be paralleled by a portion of the speech to which we listened from the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon. I am surprised that even the mechanical tyranny of the coalition should drive such hon. Members, when they think they are voting for Disestablishment, to vote really for enforcing the Thirty-nine Articles on the Church which they pretend they are liberating. Then, according to the Prime Minister, the second point is that the bishops now exercise legislative functions in the House of Lords. I quite agree with him, but if you want to eliminate the four Welsh bishops from the House of Lords, would it not have been more simple to discharge a debt of honour and act up to the Preamble of the Parliament Act? The third and last item in the Prime Minister's definition of Establishment is, in a word, Convocation. It is true that by this Bill you propose to dismember the Church of England and to shut the four Welsh sees out of Convocation, a harsh proceeding to our mind. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer said this afternoon that in so far as Disestablishment was concerned, and I quote his words, "It is a matter that concerns us alone," meaning Wales and the representatives of Wales, I say it does not concern Wales alone, even upon Disestablishment, if these four dioceses are to be refused community throughout the land, which is accorded to every other religious denomination. That is the end of the legal definition of Establishment and Disestablishment means that and no more.

Practically, materially, we cannot say that Disestablishment, as you propose to carry it out—not on the lines of the old Liberationist propaganda—we cannot see, looking at the practical results from a merely material point of view, that that makes the changes obviously apparent; but we say that in principle it makes a great change, and in principle we are earnestly, and even passionately, opposed to the Disestablishment proposals of the Government. Why? Our belief is, and we think that our view is shared by the large majority of our fellow-subjects in this country, that there should be a recognition of religion by the State. In Scotland religion is recognised by the State in the establishment of the Presbyterian Church. In Scotland, during one fortnight in every year, there are solemn occasions and religious ceremonies, in order to exhibit that recognition of religion by the State, and, so far as I can hear, in Scotland the desire, if it ever existed, to put an end to that recognition grows less day by day and year by year. In England and in Wales we have that recognition in the so-called establishment of the Church of England. Why should that be put an end to? Because, according to your doctrine, it is objected to by Wales. Are we to understand that in Wales there is no desire for a recognition of religion on the part of the State? If so, then that view is opposed to what we firmly believe to be the view of the majority of the electors of the whole of the United Kingdom, and as Unionists we take our stand on what we believe to be the view of the majority, and as Unionists who object to coalition methods we are here to see that the views of the majority prevail. But if Wales does desire that there should be recognition on the part of the State, then what is to be recognised? It is not unreasonable on our part, nor does it imply any disrespect for Welsh opinion, to say that what we believe to be the largest religious community does not seem to be the less deserving recipient of that recognition on the part of the State. Upon Disestablishment I will say no more.

When the Chancellor of the Exchequer tells us that it is a matter for Wales alone, I have to examine the connection which he endeavoured to make good between the Disestablishment proposals of the Government and the Disendowment proposals of the Government. If there is any connection, he may be entitled to his opinion that the recognition of religion by the State is a matter for Welsh views, but he tried to establish a connection where we say none exists. How did he set to work to do it? Curiously enough he based his argument upon precedent. He said that in the past—and I quote his words:— they mean to carry it out, but they have spoken at some length of how it ought to be carried out, though largely by reference to proceedings on previous Bills, but they have said little to bring home to the House or the country what is the true nature of what it is they are asking the House to acquiesce in. They gave an account of their financial proposals. I am quite ready to take that on their own showing, although I do not agree with their own showing. According to their own showing, at first blush £87,000 a year is to be left to the Church in Wales. Then they say that the Church can change the life interest of the incumbents into a perpetual annuity and then there will be £62,000 more. Then they say, bringing in another hypothetical contingency, that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty can, if they so please, give another £31,000.

I pause for a moment to say that on the question of Disendowment they have put a case which is not a matter for Wales .alone, but which is a matter for England too. What is the practice of the whole Established Church? It is that all these endowments are pooled, and then they are used throughout England and throughout Wales. Where? In the poorest parishes, and in all those large new centres of industrial population where hundreds of thousands have been added in the course of decades. It is in these places, in the poor parishes, and in the extensions of London and of the large towns, that this general pool is used. If you starve the rivulets which feed that pool you starve the poor parishes not in Wales alone, but in the whole of England. That is not a Welsh question. It is a question whether these ministrations, religious and pastoral, are to be impoverished and maimed throughout the length and breadth of the land. Taking your own showing, if these elaborate and difficult financial operations are successfully concluded, you would only fine the Church £80,000 a year. Why should you fine the Church £80,000 a year? What is the real nature of these Disendowment proposals? What is the property that is affected? At the first blush and on the face of it you are asking Parliament to take property away from those to whom it now belongs by indefeasible title, otherwise you would not have to legislate at all. That is a very grave proposal, an unusual proposal, a proposal which, if it were made in any other Parliament of Europe, would get a somewhat harsh and suspicious criticism from the Press of this country. Is that proposal to take away property owned by indefeasible right made less grave by the nature of the property? You say it is national property, and I will not occupy time by endeavouring to find out what you mean by calling that property national. That plea has broken down. The Solicitor-General was content, for the purpose of his argument, to say that the origin of tithe is an obscure matter. Then this grave question is to be decided by conflicting views upon an obscure matter. I do not think it is obscure, and I could quote Stubbs and a number of other authorities to show that there is good reason for our view, but I leave it at that. It is obscure, and the right to say that property is national, and is therefore to be taken from its legitimate owners, rests upon obscurity.

Here I pass to an argument of the Home Secretary. He was content that tithes should be national in England, but he said that they are not national in Wales because they were imposed at a far later date. That argument has had the bottom knocked out of it by the hon. Member (Mr. Ormsby-Gore). It may be that the custom of tithes, a custom which prevails throughout Christian Europe, was not the only custom which fell somewhat into abeyance in Wales when, through no fault of the Welsh, driven back as they were by pagan hordes, they hardly sustained themselves in their mountain fastnesses. But will it be denied that tithes came into being again in Wales as well as having existed there in many cases, so soon as Welsh civilisation was linked up again, for the great benefit of Wales, with the general civilisation of Europe? And indeed what comes of this national argument in respect of tithes if, as I think I have made clear, you are not dealing with Welsh tithes alone, but with the general body of tithes and of glebe which is used for the benefit of poor parishes and large industrial centres in Wales and in England?

Then you say you are only dealing with ancient property. I should have thought prescription would have strengthened the tie and all the more since it has been admitted in Debate that property held by any Nonconformist body for twenty-five years becomes indefeasible because of that prescription. I think you draw your line between modern and ancient endowments at 1662, exactly 250 years ago. Why does the argument of prescription, when the period is multiplied by ten, begin to work in the opposite direction. Then you draw distinctions and you say this is at any rate public property, corporate property. The incumbent is, I believe, a corporation sole, but you have not dared to touch the property of the incumbent. This corporate property belongs to certain persons for life, and if you interfere with what is called a living every man in this country who believes that what he owns is his, would be up in arms against you. But this properly at any rate not only belongs to certain persons for their lives, it belongs to certain parishes for ever, and it is a monstrous thing, in our opinion, that you should take this property away from the parishes to which it belongs almost wholly. The truth of the matter is that corporate property in this country is viewed with greater respect now than it was thirty years ago. I doubt if any proposal to deprive a corporation of its property would be entertained by this House unless it could be proved either that the property was excessive for the objects the corporation has to subserve, or else that they were abusing their trust. If that be the nature of the property, to what uses is it now devoted? To religious and pastoral uses, and it is plain from the whole of this Debate that it is neither excessive for those uses nor that any portion of it has ever been abused in recent years.

Lastly, is this violent act made less grave because of the new objects to which you intend to divert this property? You intend to divert it to secular objects. Are they vitally urgent? I do not think so. When last this proposal was made the Prime Minister said:— hypothetical advantages that you flourish, to fill up the gap, £80,000 a year, but you take for these secular objects £173,000 a year. That is not a very large sum. The rateable value of Wales is over £16,000,000, according to Whitaker, and a 2d. rate met by an equal Exchequer contribution, as has been done for universities in other large towns and as is being progressively done more and more for social reform throughout the country, would achieve this object, if it were your object, in a less objectionable manner and at far less cost. It becomes clear if, imitating the Home Secretary, I may bring the case of Glamorgan in aid. The Home Secretary said in one part of his argument:—

If it is grave, and I say it is grave, to divert property from religious to secular uses, if the case I have made stands up to that point, may I not urge that arguments of overwhelming weight and obvious application are necessary if this is to be done? What are the arguments? There are two sets—statistical arguments and historical arguments. Your statistical arguments are derived in part from the Commission. On that matter, in the absence of a census, I decline in this House or outside of it, to bandy about statistics with regard to the numbers belonging to any religious denomination. But the Commission shows this, and it is important, that the Church in these four dioceses is a vital and living body, that the resources of the Church are not excessive but inadequate, that the amount of accommodation supplied by the Church in Wales is equal in proportion to the amount of accommodation supplied by the Church in England. If that be the case I say those statistics, in so far as they justify this crime, as I hold it to be, might be used for the other side of the argument.

10.0 p.m.

Another argument which you use is in regard to the representation of Wales. Are you not idealising our representative institutions, at any rate in a case in which you find them useful? Are they really the mirror of the nation's mind? It is not wholly a Welsh question. I am informed that, looking to England, of the 210 Members returned as Liberals, only four mentioned Disestablishment. Even if you look to Wales, though I deny that we have a right to confine our regard to Wales, will anybody pretend that those who form the members and adherents of the Church, to whom I add those who are not Churchmen but view the work of the Church with benevolent neutrality, and those who are engrossed in other questions and never direct their attention to this matter at all, will you pretend that the great mass of the Welsh population find proportionate representation in the present three Unionist Members? You could not use that statistical argument, and indeed you do not use it, unless you bolstered it up by the historical argument and a tale of ancient wrong. It would take a long time to undo the history we have heard from the defenders of the Bill. It is true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer this afternoon limited his criticism to the more recent centuries, but he applauded a Front Bench quotation from one of his earlier speeches, in which he said that the Church had been forced upon the Welsh by mailed warriors. Well, that is one view of history. But the day before yesterday we had from the Solicitor-General another view of history. He said that in the old days the Church in Wales was homogeneous, unrivalled, and co-extensive with the life of the nation. Surely the argument of time is not the only matter which the Government have left in obscurity. Let me put their case shortly and in the least extravagant form. If it be true that the early Christians in Wales were slighted by the proud Augustine Embassy of Rome, if it be true that they were flouted by the Norman Barons, if it be true that they were tryannised over by the Tudors, and neglected by the worldly bishops of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, is that an argument for fining the Church of England now £80,000 a year? Not only, in my opinion, is your history inaccurate, but I say it is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the case which this High Court of Parliament is called on to decide. I might add that all that which can be said of Wales might be said of England, too. You seem to forget that in those centuries our liturgies were in Latin, and our laws and debates in Norman-French. The Welsh were not the only people who suffered under Henry II. Giraldus Cambrensis, his Welsh favourite, has been trotted out in this Debate. He did not repudiate the claims of Canterbury, though the Home Secretary seems to think he did. The information for his book on the "Itinerary in Wales" was gained solely by a peregrination made through Wales with the Archbishop of Canterbury, and he dedicated the account to the illustrious Stephan, Archbishop of Canterbury. The truth of the matter is that we think, and I am sure in all sincerity, you are attacking not English disregard for Welsh sympathies in the twelfth century, but the ecclesiastical administration of Continental statesmen. You are attacking the ordinary methods which Continental ecclesiastics pursued in England no less than in Wales. When you come to Henry VIII., who was a Tudor and a Welsh sovereign, you find that he did smash the monasteries, but the Church concurred. Many people think that was a great blessing, and nobody now thinks it was an unmixed blessing. The Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks it was a pity that the lands of the monasteries were diverted from the uses of the poor. I suppose they were expropriated and taken away from the parishes.

And why is he doing both these things? Both these sets of arguments are based upon nationality. I ask why in the name of nationality do you fine a Christian community £80,000 a year in order to set up objects described by the Home Secretary as not being of sufficient importance to justify the creation of a Welsh council1? We Unionists are great respecters of the diverse origins of those who inhabit this country. We glory in it. We think that all these streams are going to increase the volume of our general capacity to be a great Imperial State. But we think it unwise to deepen political divisions within the United Kingdom by racial prejudice. We think it sordid to emphasise those divisions by a kind of pettifogging book-keeping to the tune of 6s. 8d. in the £, and we think it criminal to make those divisions coincide, as they do not now, with religious differences between our fellow countrymen. But have it if you will your own way. Believe if you can, under the exigencies of your political position, that it is wise, magnanimous and right to take a wedge of racial financial or religious prejudice and to drive it into any crack you can discover in the United Kingdom, upon whose solidarity our place among the Empires of the world depends. Even so, I would ask you to consider, not ancient history, but the deliberate verdict of modern civilised Europe.

A case very similar to this was adjudicated upon by the tribunal at The Hague. Pious funds were bequeathed in California to the Roman Catholic religion. That portion of California was in process of time annexed by the United States of America, a Protestant country. Mexico, who at the time of the bequest had been connected with Spain, severed that connection and secularised the Roman Catholic bequests. The United States of America pressed that these funds, which belonged to the Roman Catholic community in that part of California which she, a Protestant power, had annexed, must still be paid. After years that was submitted to the greatest international court of modern Europe. They decided unanimously against Mexico. I would like the House to consider their decision. They decided that moneys attached to religious uses followed those particular uses as private property, notwithstanding political changes of any kind, so long as continuity of institution exists among the recipients of same. Continuity of institution exists here, and I ask the House to decide on these proposals in conformity with the findings of The Hague Tribunal rather than in accordance with senseless dictation of mechanical logrolling and conflicting lucubrations on the obscure origin of tithes. It is not obscure enough to serve your purposes. It is a false deduction from the perspective of history to think that the bestowing of those gifts was a small matter, because it is far off, and to say that it is of doubtful validity, because the epoch in which those gifts were made is called by us the Dark Ages. The darkness of those ages will not serve to conceal your offence if you steal their property now. The men who originally gave them were good men, actuated by good impulses, religious and humane. Even the men who took a part of them in the sixteenth century were, I believe, great men, not in the main covetous, but impelled by political, religious convictions of fervid intensity, which convulsed all Europe. They were giants in those days. If you now for such reasons as you adduce take what little remains, your political stature will be measured, and your place in history remembered only by the incredible meanness of your crime.

It is always a difficult task for anyone occupying my position to speak at the end of a two days' Debate in this House. The difficulty is enhanced by having to speak after the right hon. Gentleman who has addressed the House. He has addressed the House as an Englishman, a Conservative, and a Churchman. I address it as a Welshman, a Liberal, and a Nonconformist. In those circumstances, it is no wonder perhaps that he and I have arrived at different conclusions on this momentous question. I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman, if he will allow me respectfully to say so, ended his speech upon the note that he did. He talked about the incredible meanness of this crime. This is an echo of the strong language that we are accustomed to in the country, and which I had hoped would have been confined to the country. In the course of this Debate we have heard of pillage and plunder. We have heard of tainted hands. We have heard, I think it was from a Noble Lord in another place, that this Bill is a devilish measure, and hon. Members opposite recognise the definition. Let me quote for hon. Members opposite, who by their cheers have adopted these various phrases, the words of the Bishop of St. David's, as he then was, in 1869. Speaking in the House of Lords on June 6th in that year, Bishop Thirlwall said:— and I commend those episcopal words to the consideration of hon. Members opposite. Although there is no justification there is some excuse, I think, for any further language employed against us in this controversy. On former occasions in 1892, in 1895, and in 1909, the discussion from the Conservative side was carried on fairly calmly and fairly dispassionately, but the reason for that calmness was, I think, that then there was in force on that side the absolute Veto of the House of Lords, which enabled them to some extent to nullify the verdict of the House of Commons. They can no longer do so. They have lost one of the great bulwarks of established religion. They have lost, as they think, one of the great bulwarks of the Church. [Interruption.] We have listened with every respect to hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite, and everyone will recognise that I speak under greater difficulties than the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wyndham), who has had much greater experience than I have. At any rate, there can be no doubt that the House of Lords was rightly regarded as the champion of Establishment in this country, and during the former Debates, up to this year, the Conservative party could safely rely, whatever happened in this House, that no Disestablishment Bill would pass through the other House. Now, as their defence grows weaker, because they have lost the Veto of the House of Lords, their language grows stronger and their interruptions more frequent. This is in general keeping with the charges brought against His Majesty's Government, not upon this question but generally—charges of corruption —[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"]—I am glad that is accepted by hon. Gentlemen— and charges of dishonesty, and who are those charges against?

They are not against Ireland, they are not against Wales, they are against your English kith and kin upon these benches. They are against the permanent majority on this side, the English Members in this House who control the Government. [HON. "MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] The right hon. Gentleman, in the course of his speech, said he would allow me half the time, and these interruptions, if they are continued, will have that half. I really trust that I shall not say anything offensive; I shall certainly say nothing so offensive to the other side as the right hon. Gentleman said of us. We are able to listen in peace and with attention to what is said by hon. Gentlemen opposite. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said with regard to this question that we are concerned with to-night, that its whole motive power is derived from "envy, malice, and all uncharitableness." [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Not so enthusiastic. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I accept the strength, which is quite sufficient for one's purpose, of that acclamation. Now may I quote you an authority which I think we are bound to recognize—the Archbishop of Canterbury. Do you laugh at the authority of the Archbishop. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no."] What does the Archbishop of Canterbury say? Speaking on this very question at Carnarvon last Monday, he said:— the remarks I made I was inventing a history of my own. I was quoting and paraphrasing in very inferior language the opinions arrived at by historians on this question. The late Professor Lecky has, I think I am right in saying, been quoted with approval at least six times from the other side in the course of this Debate. This is what the late Professor Lecky said about Establishment:—

I have not the reference by me now. But I do not expect hon. Members to accept it. I am justifying the view I take upon the subject. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wyndham) said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had referred to "mailed warriors." It really is an incident in history. The right hon. Gentleman, than whom there are few greater authorities on historical matters, probably knows perfectly well that the old Welsh Church had three enemies against whom they contended. The first was the Pope of Rome, the second was the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the third was the King of England. It took the Pope about 150 years to subjugate them. It took the Archbishop of Canterbury 500 years to subjugate them. The year 1115 was the first occasion upon which the Archbishop of Canterbury sent a bishop to a Welsh diocese—St. David's. How did he send him? With soldiers to protect him. Those are the "mailed warriors," and they were to protect the new bishop from the flock who were only too anxious to get into touch with him. May I deal briefly with the three main arguments which have been brought against us in the course of this Debate? It is alleged, first of all, that we have no constitutional right to deal with this question at all—that is to say, no mandate. In the second place, it is said that, mandate or no mandate, we have no moral right, at any rate to deal with Endowments. Thirdly, it is said that this question involves the national repudiation of religion. Those are the three main points that have been urged. There are one or two minor points with which I will also deal, if I have time.

With regard to the mandate, we allege, first of all, that since 1868 the electors of Wales have returned a majority in favour of this measure. That is a remarkable incident in the history of any country. We know about the swing of the pendulum in England. We hear Liberal politicians saying from time to time: "Just think! in 1906, in January, 1910, and in December, 1910, the electors of England have thought the same thing three times in succession," and they refer to it as a phenomenon which has never occurred before in the history of this country. But in eleven General Elections the people of Wales have declared what they think upon this question. It may be said, "Oh, it is only Wales." Wales—is it, or is it not, a unit of decision? The Bishop of Hereford— [Several HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"—I am a little surprised to hear that sneer. Is it not a pity that the Church cannot get some method of appointing their bishops so that they may respect them, nor sneer at them? The Bishop of Hereford wrote to the "Times" and said that Wales had been recognised in legislation as a nation. Thereupon the Bishop of St. Asaph wrote and said:— he gave after failing at the poll. Disestablishment had done it. If, he said, he had only been in favour of Disestablishment he would have got in. A great deal has been said about the General Election of December, 1910. I have read some leaflets, and I have heard some remarks in this House. It is complained that only eight, nine, or ten of the Welsh Members mentioned this question in their election addresses. [An HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The hon. Gentleman accepts that. Let me give him the real facts. In December, 1910, eleven candidates referred to the matter in their election addresses—two of them spoke of religious equality. What is the inference? That only eleven out of thirty-four candidates dealt with the subject. I will prove the contrary. In the January election four had specifically mentioned the subject. One said his views were well known, for he had, throughout his career in many years in the past, always supported the Liberation programme. Nine issued no addresses. Of these nine, eight had in the previous election specifically referred to Disestablishment. So you have twenty-five of the Liberal candidates and three of the Conservative candidates referring to it in their election addresses, making twenty-eight out of thirty-four. I am sure hon. Members will agree when I say that every Liberal candidate in Wales at the last election referred to Disestablishment in his speeches. It may be said, "That is not enough; we have to consider whether it was before England." Let me deal with that. The official Liberal organisation, the National Liberal Federation, which takes a part naturally in forming the programme on the Liberal side, has had this matter before it since 1885. In 1887, at the annual meeting at Nottingham, Welsh Disestablishment was given an immediate place among the active objects of the Liberal party, and it was, of course, on the Newcastle programme. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I would like to know what hon. Member would say it was not. At Manchester, in 1889, an amendment to the official resolution was carried unanimously that Welsh Disestablishment should come immediately after Irish Home Rule. The urgency of the question has been recognised by four Liberal Prime Ministers, Mr. Gladstone, Lord Rosebery, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, and the present Prime Minister. Was it before England at the last election? On 14th November, 1910, the Prime Minister, speaking at Glossop, referred to a speech which he had delivered three days before the dissolution of Parliament and a whole week before the earliest of the polls. In that speech he said:— Norman conquest. I asked for some evidence before the twelfth century, but none was given—

I should have thought that a question so obscure is not one upon which an hon. Member ought to say my statement is untrue. Let me quote one authority, who said:—

"whatever else Wales owes to the Normans and the Plantagenets, she certainly owes the legal imposition of tithe."

That is by Mr. Willis Bund, a scholar, Churchman, and historian. Was there or was there not discontinuity? I submit that there was no structural discontinuity. The corporation remained the same, but there was a doctrinal discontinuity. There was a change in the Courts of law of the Church. The difference between the pre-Reformation and the past-Reformation was this. It was quite true that before the Reformation attempts were made to resist he temporal sovereignty of the Pope, but no effort was ever made to resist the spiritual sovereignty of the Pope. The Noble Lord opposite talked about glebe. I really think the less he says about glebe the better from his own point of view, because the greater part of the private benefactions of glebe were given in frankalmoigne that was in order to have prayers for the dead. If ever there was a trust that failed—we have heard a great deal about the failing of trusts—it is these glebe lands given in frankalmoigne, because the present Church cannot carry out the conditions of the trust.

Does the hon. Gentleman say that all glebe was given in frankalmoigne, or that in most cases it was given in frankalmoigne ?

Does the Noble Lord agree that a great portion of the glebe land was given in frankalmoigne ?

Does the Noble Lord agree that if that were the condition this Church can no longer fulfil it. The real question is this: Can the present Church perform the sacred miracle of the Mass? Can it pronounce absolution? If it cannot do these two things, it is not, so far as doctrine is concerned, a continuous Church. Now I come to prescriptive title. I am sure hon. Members opposite will do me the justice to see I am trying as far as I can to make a reply. It may very well be said to me, "You may be right about your tithe, and your glebe, and about continuity, but even then at your best, admitting all you say, the Church has held this property legally for 250 years." Then it is said to me, "Under the Act of 1844 dissenters have had secured to them property which they have enjoyed for twenty-five years, and you propose to take away from the Church property it has enjoyed for 250 years." I appreciate the potency of that argument, and we are bound to meet it. If we are not just and right in the claim we make, we do not deserve, and we shall not succeed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Mr. A. Lyttelton), in his opening speech on Tuesday, asked why the Church should lose her property, seeing that under the Act of 1844 Nonconformists were secure in the title of property of which they had had undisputed possession for twenty-five years. That is the argument he put; and that is the argument with which I propose to deal. All the Act of 1844 did was to give Nonconformists a title to their property after twenty-five years in cases where the trust deeds were silent as to the particular doctrines to be taught. Where they are not so silent, neither twenty-five nor 250 years will safeguard the property of Nonconformists. The Free Church of Scotland case settled that question so far as the Law Courts of this country are concerned.

It may be, in law, the corporations of the Church of England are like other corporations; but have we a moral right? Parliament has the legal right to do anything. The question is: have we the moral right? We have, therefore, to consider not the question of law, but the question of equity. When you come to deal, not with the question of law but with the question of equity, you have to consider the purposes and origin, and the purposes and origin make all the difference. The question of origin is the determining factor, and the case for Disendowment rests on the fact that the revenues touched are not derived from voluntary or private benefactions, as in the case of the Free Churches. The beneficiaries of the trust were not to be one particular sect; but the people generally of the district upon their religious side. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I do not expect to convince hon. Members, but that is the case I put for their consideration. May I now deal with the last point, and that is the national repudiation of religion. We ought, as far as we can, to avoid any confusion between Establishment and Religion. You can have Establishment without Religion, and you can have religion without Establishment; and it is a strange thing, at any rate so far as Wales is concerned, that in the Hanoverian Period, when Establishment was most triumphant, religion was at its lowest ebb. I would submit to the Noble Lord an authority whom he, like the rest of the House, will respect. Lord Selborne said:—

One particular point to which I must refer is the alleged rise of the Church and the decline of Nonconformity. According to the Report of the Commission,

"The influence of the Revival of 1904 and 1905 was without a parallel in Wales since the great Revival of 1859, and gave the Nonconformist statistics of full members and Sunday scholars for the year 1905 quite an exceptional character."

The Noble Lord said, and it is quite true, that after that Revival had reached its highest there was a falling off in numbers. But, taking the number of adherents of the denomination—not beginning with 1905 which was an exceptional year—but from the year 1903 to the year 1908, there was an increase amongst the Nonconformist bodies of 56,000 in those five years. The Bishop of St. Asaph, in the "Times" of 1912, mentioned the figures for the four Churches in 1911 as 504,000. In eight years there is an increase of 57,000, or increase of 7,000 a year. The average increase in the Church between 1905 and 1911 for Easter communicants—not quite a fair comparison, I admit, but it is the only one I can get—was 12,000 in six years: that is, the Church of England increased at the rate of 2,000 a year, as against a Nonconformist increase at the rate of 7,000 a year.

No, not this year. Is it not a curious thing that the figures seven and two are almost invariably the figures in relation to Nonconformity and the Church of England?

I say it was the best comparison I could get from these figures. I do not know whether the House has read that when the Archbishop of Canterbury went through the Principality he was met at Bangor Station by the Dean and Chapter, who presented him with an address, and he said his visit reminded him of his precedessor, Archbishop Peckham, in 1284.

This Bill has done something. It has brought an Archbishop to Bangor, after an absence of 600 years. It really does show that the Dean and Chapter of Bangor knew little about Peckham—I am not referring to the great and glorious Peck-ham, but to the Archbishop. He was the man who excommunicated the last Prince of Wales. By the way, they talk about a National Church. Does anyone on the other side say it is a National Church? Peckham excommunicated the last Prince of Wales, and when the last Prince of Wales was killed, he refused to remove the ban of excommunication from his mangled remains. Surely it was mistaken kindness for the Dean and Chapter of Bangor to welcome the Archbishop of Canterbury to Bangor in these words.

In its relations with the State Nonconformity has moved, first of all, from persecution to toleration. Since then we have moved from toleration to liberty, and you think we ought to be satisfied. That is your view. But we are not satisfied. The final step, consummated in this Bill, is not merely liberty, but equality. You prophesy disaster, but the Conservative party always does prophesy disaster from reform. For my own part, and I speak in all sincerity, the test after all is, "Will it be good for the people of Wales?" I believe that when you remove this barrier of strife you will get

Division No. 77.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)

Acland, Francis Dyke

Chancellor, H. G.

Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.),

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Essex, Richard Walter

Agnew, Sir George William

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Esslemont, George Birnie

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Clancy, John Joseph

Falconer, J.

Alden, Percy

Clough, William

Farrell, James Patrick

Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire)

Clynes, John R.

Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Ffrench, Peter

Armitage, Robert

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Field, William

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Fitzgibbon, John

Atherley-Jones, Llewelyn A.

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Cowan, William Henry

France, G. A.

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Gill, Alfred Henry

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Crean, Eugene

Ginnell, Laurence

Barnes, George

Crooks, William

Gladstone, W. G. C.

Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick)

Crumley, Patrick

Glanville, Harold James

Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

Cullinan, John

Goldstone, Frank

Beale, William Phipson

Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)!

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Davies, David (Montgomery)

Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George)

Davies, Ellis William (Elfion)

Greig, Col. J. W.

Bentham, George Jackson

Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke>

Black, Arthur W.

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan)

Guiney, Patrick

Boland, John Pius

Dawes, J. A.

Gulland, John William

Booth, Frederick Handel

De Forest, Baron

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

Bowerman, C. W.

Delany, William

Hackett, John

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

Denman, Hon. R. D

Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

Brace, William

Devlin, Joseph

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Brady, Patrick Joseph

Dillon, John.

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Brocklehurst, William B.

Donelan, Captain A.

Hardie, J. Keir

Bryce, John Annan

Doris, W.

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Dufiy, William J.

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

Burke, E. Haviland

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar)

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Harwood, George

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Hid)

Haslam, Lewis Monmouth

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

Havelock-Alan, Sir Henry

Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

Elverston, Sir Harold

Hayden, John Patrick

better co-operation. Three bishops have said to the Royal Commission that in Christian service it is impossible, without harm to religion, to have co-operation between the Established Church and Non-conformity. I believe that when you have a community of Christian Churches, free and equal, in Wales, you will have a great power for good, and the removal of this barrier will be the basis of a greater co-operation. I look forward to the day when there will not only be co-operation, but, perhaps, inter communion between these free Christian Churches in the Principality of Wales, when strife will have been banished and bitterness will have gone, because they will find they have only one aim and purpose, that is to fulfil the mission of the Master and hasten the coming of His Kingdom.

rose in his place, and claimed to move "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 331; Noes, 252.

Hayward, Evan

Menzies, Sir Walter

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Healy, Maurice (Cork)

Middlebrook, William

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.)

Millar, James Duncan

Roche, Augustine (Louth)

Helme, Norval Watson

Molteno, Percy Alport

Roe, Sir Thomas

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Mond, Sir Alfred M.

Rose, Sir Charles Day

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Rowlands, James

Higham, John Sharp

Mooney, John J.

Rowntree, Arnold

Hinds, John

Morgan, George Hay

Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

Morrell, Philip

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Hodge, John

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Hogge, James Myles

Muldoon, John

Scanlan, Thomas

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Munro, Robert

Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.

Holt, Richard Durning

Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

Seely, Rt. Hon. Col. J. E. B.

Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Needham, Christopher

Sheehy, David

Hudson, Walter

Neilson, Francis

Sherwell, Arthur James

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Nicholson, Sir Charles Doncaster)

Shortt, Edward

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

Nolan, Joseph

Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)

Norman, Sir Henry

Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

John, Edward Thomas

Norton, Captain Cecil W.

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Nuttall, Harry

Snowden, Philip

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

O'Brien, William (Cork)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Jones, William S. Glyn-(Stepney)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

Jowett, Frederick William

O'Connor, T. p. (Liverpool)

Summers, James Woolley

Joyce, Michael (Limerick)

O'Doherty, Philip

Sutherland, John E.

Keating, Matthew

O'Donnell, Thomas

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Kellaway, Frederick George

Ogden, Fred

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Kelly, Edward

O'Grady, James

Tennant, Harold John

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Kilbride, Denis

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Thomas, James Henry (Derby)

King, J.

O'Malley, William

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Lamb, Ernest Henry

O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

Toulmin, Sir George

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon. S. Molton)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

O'Shee, James John

Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander

Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

O'Sullivan, Timothy

Verney, Sir Harry

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Walton, Sir Joseph

Leach, Charles

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

Levy, Sir Maurice

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Wardle, G. J.

Lewis, John Herbert

Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

Logan, John William

Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

Watt, Henry A.

Lundon, Thomas

Pointer, Joseph

Wedgwood, Josiah

Lyell, Charles Henry

Pollard, Sir George H.

White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

Lynch, A. A.

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Power, Patrick Joseph

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Whitehouse, John Howard

McGhee, Richard

Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)

MacNelll, John G. S. (Donegal, South)

Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Wiles, Thomas

Macpherson, James Ian

Primrose, Hon. Neil James

Wilkie, Alexander

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Pringle, William M. R.

Williams, J. (Glamorgan)

M'Callum, John

Radford, G. H.

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

M'Kean, John

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry

Williamson, Sir A.

M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields;

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)

Rea. Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

Reddy, M.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Manfield, Harry

Redmond, John E (Waterford)

Winfrey Richard

Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Rendall, Athelstan

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Richards, Thomas

Young William (Perth, East)

Martin, Joseph

Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

Yoxall, Sir James Henry

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Masterman, C. F. G.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Meagher, Michael

Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

TELLERS FOR THF AYES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. lllingworth.

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's County)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Baird, John Lawrence

Barrie, H. T. (Londonderry, N.)

Aitken, sir William Max

Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.)

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Baldwin, Stanley

Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

Anstruther-Gray, Major William

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Archer-Shee, Major Martin

Banner, John S. Harmood.

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Ashley, W. W.

Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester}

Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)

Astor, Waldorf

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.

Barnston, Harry

Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish.

Beresford, Lord Charles

Hambro, Angus Valdemar

Parkes, Ebenezer

Bigland, Alfred

Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Bird, Alfred

Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)

Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Harris, Henry Percy

Perkins, Walter Frank

Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Peto, Basil Edward

Boyton, James

Helmsley, Viscount

Pole-Carew, Sir R.

Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Bull, Sir William James

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

Pretyman, Ernest George

Burdett-Coutts, William

Hewins, William Herbert Samuel

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Burgoyne, Alan Hughes

Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.

Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

Burn, Col. C. R.

Hill, Sir Clement L.

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Butcher, John George

Hills, John Waller

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

Hill-Wood, Samuel

Rawson, Colonel, Richard H.

Campion, W. R.

Hoare, Samuel John Gurney

Rees, Sir J. D.

Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Remnant, James Farquharson

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Hope, Harry (Bute)

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Cassel, Felix

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Rolleston, Sir John

Castlereagh, Viscount

Horne, William E. (Surrey, Guildford)

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Cator, John

Horner, Andrew Long

Rothschild, Lionel de

Cautley, Henry Strother

Hume-Williams, William Ellis

Royds, Edmund

Cave, George

Hunt, Rowland

Rutherford, John (Lancs, Darwen)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hunter, Sir Chas. Rodk. (Bath)

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

Ingleby, Holcombe

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

Jackson, Sir John

Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

Sanders, Robert

Chambers, James

Jessel, Captain Herbert M.

Sanderson, Lancelot

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Joynson-Hicks, William

Sandys, G. J.

Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Clive, Captain Percy Archer

Kerry, Earl of

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Keswick, William

Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (Liv'rp'l, Walton)

Cooper, Richard Ashmole

Kimber, Sir Henry

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Courthope, George Loyd

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Spear, Sir John Ward

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Knight, Capt. Eric Ayshford

Stanier, Beville

Craig, Captain James (Down E.)

Kyffin-Taylor, G.

Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

Craik, Sir Henry

Larmor, Sir J.

Starkey, John Ralph

Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Staveley-Hill Henry (Staffordshire)

Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

Steel-Maitland, A. D.

Croft, Henry Page

Lee, Arthur Hamilton

Stewart, Gershom

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Lewisham, Viscount

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

Denniss, E. R. B.

Lloyd, George Ambrose

Swift, Rigby

Dixon, Charles Harvey

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

Doughty, Sir George

Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

Du Cros, Arthur Philip

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Duke, Henry Edward

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Edgbaston)

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Faber, George D. (Clapham)

Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo. Han. S.)

Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, North)

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

Thynne, Lord A.

Falle, Bertram Godfray

MacCaw, Wm. J.

Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

Fell, Arthur

Mackinder, Halford J.

Touche, George Alexander

Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

Macmaster, Donald

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Tullibardine, Marquess of

Fltzroy, Hon. Edward A.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Valentia, Viscount

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Magnus, Sir Philip

Walker, Col. William Hall

Fletcher, John Samuel

Malcolm, Ian

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Forster, Henry William

Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

Foster, Philip Staveley

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Gardner, Ernest

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Weigall, Capt. A. G.

Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Gibbs, George Abraham

Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

Gilmour, Captain J.

Moore, William

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K.

Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud

Goldsmith, Frank

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Wolmer, Viscount

Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

Mount, William Arthur

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Newdegate, F. A.

Worthington-Evans, L.

Grant, James Augustus

Newton, Harry Kottingham

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Greene, Walter Raymond

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

Nield, Herbert

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds)

Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

Yate, Col. C. E.

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

Yerburgh, Robert

Haddock, George Bahr

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Younger, Sir George

Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

Paget, Almeric Hugh

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Balcarres and Mr. Bridgeman.

Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Question put accordingly, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to terminate the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and to make provision in respect of the Tem- poralities thereof, and for other purposes in connection with the matters aforesaid."

The House divided: Ayes, 331; Noes, 253.

Division No. 78.]

AYES.

[11.13 p.m.

Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)

Esslemont, George Birnie

Lundon, Thomas

Acland, Francis Dyke

Falconer, James

Lyell, Charles Henry

Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R.

Farrell, James Patrick

Lynch, A. A.

Agnew, Sir George William

Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Ainsworth, John Stirling

Ffrench, Peter

Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)

Alden, Percy

Field, William

McGhee, Richard

Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

Fitzgibbon, John

Maclean, Donald

Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Armitage, Robert

France, G. A.

MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South)

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

George, Rt. Hon. D Lloyd

Macpherson, James Ian

Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A.

Gill, Alfred Henry

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Ginnell, L.

M'Callum, John M.

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Gladstone, W. G. C.

M'Kean, John

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Glanville, Harold James

McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Goldstone, Frank

M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)

Barnes, George N.

Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)

M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding)>

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick, B.)

Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)

M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe)

Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.)

Greig, Colonel J. W.

Manfield, Harry

Beale, W. P.

Griffith, Ellis J.

Markham, Sir Arthur Basil

Benn, W. W, (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)

Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Bentham, G. J.

Guiney, Patrick

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Gulland, John W.

Martin, Joseph

Black Arthur W.

Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Boland, John Plus

Hackett, J.

Masterman, C. F. G.

Booth, Frederick Handel

Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)

Meagher, Michael

Bowerman, Charles W.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)

Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)

Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Meehan, Patrick A. (Queens County),

Brace, William

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Menzies, Sir Walter

Brady, Patrick Joseph

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Middlebrook, William

Brocklehurst, W. B.

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

Millar, James Duncan

Bryce, J. Annan

Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)

Molteno, Percy Alport

Buckmaster, Stanley O.

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)

Mond, Sir Alfred M.

Burke, E. Haviland

Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)

Montagu, Hon. E. S.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)

Mooney, John J.

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)

Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry

Morgan, George Hay

Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar)

Hayden, John Patrick

Morrell, Philip

Byles, Sir William Pollard

Hayward, Evan

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Healy, Maurice (Cork)

Muldoon, John

Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)

Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, East)

Munro, Robert

Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood)

Helme, Norval Watson

Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.

Chancellor, Henry George

Henderson, Arthur (Durham)

Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C.

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., South)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Higham, John Sharp

Needham, Christopher T.

Clancy, John Joseph

Hinds, John

Neilson, Francis

Clough, William

Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.

Nicholson, Charles N. (Doncaster)

Clynes, John R.

Hodge, John

Nolan, Joseph

Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)

Hogge, James Myles

Norman, Sir Henry

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Norton, Captain Cecil W.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Holt, Richard Durning

Nugent, Sir Walter Richard

Cory, Sir Clifford John

Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

Nuttall, Harry

Cowan, W. H.

Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

O'Brien, William (Cork)

Crawshay-Williams, Eliot

Hudson, Walter

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Crean, Eugene

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Crooks, William

Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus

O'Doherty, Philip

Crumley, Patrick

Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

O'Donnell, Thomas

Cullinan, John

John, Edward Thomas

Ogden, Fred

Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)

Jones, Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)

O'Grady, James

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.>

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe)

O'Malley, William

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Jones, William S. Glyn-(Stepney)

O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Jowett, Frederick William

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Dawes, J. A.

Joyce, Michael

O'Shee, James John

De Forest, Baron

Keating, Matthew

O'Sullivan, Timothy

Delany, William

Kellaway, Frederick George

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Denman, Hon. R. D.

Kelly, Edward

Parker, James (Halifax)

Devlin, Joseph

Kennedy, Vincent Paul

Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leeks)

Dillon, John

Kilbride, Denis

Pearce, William (Limehouse)

Donelan, Captain A.

King, J.

Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.

Doris, William

Lamb, Ernest Henry

Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)

Duffy, William J.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton)

Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Phillips, John (Longford, S.)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lardner, James Carrige Rushe

Pointer, Joseph

Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)

Pollard Sir George H.

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid

Leach, Charles

Power, Patrick Joseph

Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of

Levy, Sir Maurice

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Elverston, Sir Harold

Lewis, John Herbert

Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk. E.)

Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N)

Logan, John William

Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Essex, Richard Walter

Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)

Primrose, Hon. Neil James

Pringle, Wm. M. R.

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Wardle, G. J.

Radford, G. H.

Seely, Rt. Hon. Col. J. E. B.

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Raphael, Sir Herbert H.

Sheehy, David

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Watt, Henry A.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Shortt, Edward

Wedgwood, Josiah C.

Reddy, Michael

Simon, Sir John Allsebrook

White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)

Redmond, William (Clare, E.)

Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Rendall, Athelstan

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Richards, Thomas

Snowden, Philip

Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Whyte, A. F. (Perth)

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Spicer, Sir Albert

Wiles, Thomas

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)

Wilkie, Alexander

(Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)

Summers, James Woolley

Williams, John (Glamorgan)

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Sutherland, J. E.

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)

Taylor, John W. (Durham)

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Williamson, Sir A.

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Tennant, Harold John

Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)

Roche, Augustine (Louth)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Wilson, J. (Durham, Mid)

Roe, Sir Thomas

Thomas, James Henry (Derby)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Rose, Sir Charles Day

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Winfrey, Richard

Rowlands, James

Toulmin, Sir George

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)

Rowntree, Arnold

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.

Ure, Rt. Hon .Alexander

Young, William (Perth, East)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Verney, Sir Harry

Yoxall, Sir James Henry

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Scanlan, Thomas

Walton, Sir Joseph

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. W. Jones and Mr. Illingworth.

Schwann, Rt Hon. Sir Charles E.

Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Chaloner, Col. R. G. W.

Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, s.)

Aitken, Sir William Max

Chambers, J.

Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R.

Clay, Captain H. H. Spender

Harris, Henry Percy

Anstruther-Gray, Sir William

Clive, Captain Percy Archer

Harrison-Broadley, H. B.

Archer-Shee, Major Martin

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Harwood, George

Ashley, Wilfrid W.

Cooper, Richard Ashmole

Helmsley, Viscount

Astor, Waldorf

Courthope, George Loyd

Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)

Bagot, Lieut.-Col. J.

Craig, Captain James (Down, E.)

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

Baird, John Lawrence

Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.)

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)

Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)

Hickman, Col. Thomas E.

Baldwin, Stanley

Craik, Sir Henry

Hill, Sir Clement L.

Balfour, Rt Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.)

Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian

Hills, John Wallace

Banbury, Sir Frederick George

Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred

Hill-Wood, Samuel

Banner, John S. Harmood-

Croft, H. P.

Hoare, S. J. G.

Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Barlow, Montagu (Salford, South)

Denniss, E. R. B.

Hope, Harry (Bute)

Barnston, Harry

Dixon, Charles Harvey

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Barrie, H. T.

Doughty, Sir George

Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)

Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.)

Du Cros, Arthur Philip

Horner, Andrew Long

Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Duke, Henry Edward

Hume-Williams, W. E.

Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks

Eyres-Monsell, B. M.

Hunt, Rowland

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Faber, George D. (Clapham)

Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath)

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)

Ingleby, Holcombe

Benn, Ian Hamilton (Greenwich)

Falle, Bertram, Godfray

Jackson, Sir John

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Fell, Arthur

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert

Jessel, Captain H. M.

Beresford, Lord Charles

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes

Joynson-Hicks, William

Bigland, Alfred

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

Kerr-Smiley Peter Kerr

Bird, A.

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Kerry, Earl of

Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue

Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)

Keswick, Henry

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Forster, Henry William

Kimber, Sir Henry

Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid)

Foster, Philip Staveley

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Boyton, James

Gardner, Ernest

Knight, Capt. E. A.

Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

Gastrell, Major W. Houghton

Kyffin-Taylor, G. R.

Bull, Sir William James

Gibbs, G. A.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Gilmour, Capt. John

Larmor, Sir J.

Burgoyne, A. H.

Glazebrook, Capt. Philip

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Goldsmith, Frank

Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)

Butcher, John George

Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)

Lee, Arthur H.

Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.)

Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)

Lewisham, Viscount

Campion, W. R.

Goulding, E. A.

Lloyd, George Ambrose

Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

Grant, J. A.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Greene, Walter Raymond

Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)

Cassel, Felix

Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Castlereagh, Viscount

Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)

Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee

Cator, John

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Edgbaston)

Cautley, Henry Strother

Haddock, George Bahr

Lyttelton, Rt. Hn. A. (St. Geo., Han. S.)

Cave, George

Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hall, Fred (Dulwich)

MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeogh

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)

Mackinder, Halford J.

Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

Hambro, Angus Valdemar

Macmaster, Donald

M'Calmont, Colonel James

Quilter, Sir William Eley C.

Talbot, Lord Edmund

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Ratcliff, Major R. F.

Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)

Malcolm, Ian

Rawson, Colonel R. H.

Thomson, W. Micthell-(Down, North)

Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

Rees, Sir J. D.

Thynne, Lord Alexander

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Tobin, Alfred Aspinall

Meysey-Thompson, E. C.

Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Touche, George Alexander

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Rolleston, Sir John

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas

Ronaldshay, Earl of

Tullibardine, Marquess of

Moore, William

Rothschild, Lionel de

Valentia, Viscount

Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)

Royds, Edmund

Walker, Col. William Hall

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)

Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)

Walrond, Hon. Lionel

Mount, William Arthur

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Warde, Col. C, E. (Kent, Mid)

Newdegate, F. A.

Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)

Weigall, Capt. A. G.

Newton, Harry Kottingham

Sanders, Robert Arthur

Wheler, Granville C. H.

Nicholson, William G. G. (Petersfield)

Sanderson, Lancelot

White, Major G. D. (Lancs, Southport)

Nield, Herbert

Sandys, G. J.

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)

Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Willoughby, Major Hen. Claude

O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Wolmer, Viscount

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Smith, Rt. Hn. F. E. (L'pool, Walton)

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Paget, Almeric Hugh

Spear, Sir John Ward

Worthington-Evans, L.

Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)

Stanier, Beville

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Parkes, Ebenezer

Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)

Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)

Starkey, John Ralph

Yate, Col. C. E.

Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)

Staveley-Hill, Henry

Yerburgh, Robert

Perkins, Walter F.

Steel-Maitland, A. D.

Younger, Sir George

Peto, Basil Edward

Stewart, Gershom

Pole-Carew, Sir R.

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North]

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Swift, Rigby

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Balcarres and Mr. Bridgeman.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. McKenna, Mr. Lloyd George, Mr. Hob-house, Sir John Simon, Mr. Ellis Griffith, Mr. Herbert Lewis, and Mr. William Jones. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday, 6th May, and to be printed. [Bill 176.]

Army (Annual) Bill

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Patent Medicines

Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and inquire into the question of the sale of Patent and Proprietary Medicines and medical preparations and appliances, and advertisements relating thereto; and to report what Amendments, if any, in the Law are necessary or desirable.—[ Mr. Gulland. ]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Charles Bathurst, Mr. Cawley, Dr. Chapple, Sir Henry Dalziel, Mr. Marshall Hall, Mr. Hayden, Mr. Hodge, Mr. Ingleby, Mr. Glyn-Jones, Mr. Haydn Jones, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Lynch, Sir Philip Magnus, Mr. Newton, and Sir Henry Norman be Members of the Committee."

I wish to ask a question about these Committees. We have been considerably interested recently in the Single School Areas Bill, but on the Committee dealing with that measure not a single Member from the county of Cork was selected. I only wish to call attention, in case it may be necessary, to the entire failure of the Government to consult one section of the Irish Members and to do the whole of their business through the section which sits immediately behind me. It is a very important matter that these Committees should be representative of all shades of opinion. I do not want to press the Government now, nor to object to the formation of this Committee, but I wish to say that the scandal relating to the Single School Areas Bill being so great, we are determined, as far as we are concerned, not any longer to allow the formation of these Committees to pass in silence, especially when we see that in so important a matter as the Single School Areas Bill, a single vote might effect a very important result. We are entitled in a number of cases to at least one member, and sometimes two, according to the formation of these bodies. Therefore I simply inform the Government at this stage that we can no longer in silence tolerate the formation of these groups, unless we are consulted and get some representation upon them.

The Committee to which the hon. Member refers was appointed by the Selection Committee. This is a Committee appointed by the House, and his complaint is against the Selection Committee which nominated the Committee to which the Single-School Areas Bill was referred.

I know that very well, but whom have you consulted about this Committee?

We are a party, and that is what we want to have known.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records, and to order analyses.

Ordered, That five be the quorum.— [Mr. Gulland.]

And, it being half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock.