House of Commons
Monday, April 29, 1912
Private Business
Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with), —Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—
Everton, etc., Drainage Bill [ Lords ].
Manchester Royal Exchange Bill [ Lords ].
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time.
Private Bills (Petitions for additional Provision) (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Reports from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petitions for additional Provision in the following Bills, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:—
Houghton-le-Spring District Gas Bill.
London County Council (Tramways and Improvements) Bill.
Scunthorpe Urban District Water Bill.
Ordered, That the Reports be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bills be read a second time To-morrow.
Taff Vale Railway Bill, Read the third time, and passed.
Birmingham Corporation Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Staffordshire Potteries Water Bill,
As amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
Wirral Railway (Extension of Time) Bill [ Lords ],
Considered; to be read the third time.
Penwortham Bridge Bill [lords],
To be read a second time To-morrow.
Kilmarnock Gas Provisional Order Bill,
"To confirm a Provisional Order under The Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, relating to Kilmarnock Gas." Presented by Mr. McKinnon Wood; read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 108.]
Light Railways Act, 1896
Copy presented of Report of the Proceedings of the Board of Trade up to the 31st December, 1911, and of the Proceedings of the Light Railway Commissioners up to the same date [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 108.]
Tuberculosis (Departmental Committee)
Copy presented of Interim Report of the Departmental Committee on Tuberculosis, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Taxes (England and Wales, Scotland, and Ireland)
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 15th February; Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson ]; to lie upon the Table. [No. 109.]
Irish Debt
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 1st April; Mr. Godfrey Locker-Lampson ] to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 110.]
Trade Reports (Annual Series)
Copy presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, No. 4853 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
FACTORY AND WORKSHOP (SPECIAL EXCEPTION, LIME-WASHING, Erc
Copy presented of Order dated 19th April, 1912, made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department in pursuance of Section 1 (4) of The Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, granting, subject to conditions, a special exception as regards lime-washing to parts of Factories which are rooms in which lace-making by machine is carried on [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Prisons (England and Wales)
Copy presented of Draft of Rules proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Prisons Acts, 1877 and 1898, with respect to the constitution of the Visiting Committee of Canterbury Prison [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
East India (Railways and Irrigation Works)
Address for Return "showing the estimated position, as regards capital expenditure, of the several Railways and Irrigation Works under construction in India on the 31st day of March, 1912, and the proposed expenditure thereon during 1912–13 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 134, Session 1911)."—[ Sir Robert Price. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Consular Service (Russia)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention had been called to the resolution passed by the Russian section of the British Chamber of Commerce and adopted by the council on 14th March, 1912, reporting that the British Consulate at St. Petersburg is under-staffed in comparison with the Consulates of other nations, Germany maintaining a Consul-General and eighteen salaried officials, whereas Great Britain maintains only a Consul with two salaried officials, and recommending that more liberal financial provision be made; and whether he would now consider the advisability of raising the status of the Consulate at St. Petersburg to that of Consulate-General and of increasing the number of salaried officials, in view of the importance of an adequate Consular service for the due development of trade between Great Britain and Russia?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. In reply to the, second part, I am fully alive to the importance of adequate Consular representation at St. Petersburg and elsewhere in Russia; a detailed Report upon the whole matter will shortly be received from the Commercial Attaché at St. Petersburg, and upon its receipt the question will receive careful consideration.
As the Commercial Attachés Report will apply to the whole of Russia, and my question refers solely to St. Petersburg, it is not necessary to wait for that report?
I think we can give the matter better consideration when we receive the expected Report.
As the commercial work of the Consuls is greatly increasing all over the world, and in view of the fact that we are behind hand in other parts of Russia, will the hon. Gentleman have an inquiry made into the whole system?
I cannot promise to have an inquiry made into the whole system. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put down a question on the matter.
When will the Report of the inquiry regarding the Consular service in Russia be received?
Perhaps the hon. Member will put down a question.
Shall we have an opportunity of seeing that Report?
Hon. Members must not forget that there are 106 other questions on the Paper.
Dardanelles (Congestion of Traffic)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether the Dardanelles were still closed to merchant shipping; and whether His Majesty's Government would approach the Italian and Ottoman Governments with a view to the arrangement of a local armistice of sufficient duration to allow British and other ships now detained in the Bos-phorus, off Constantinople, and in the Marmora an opportunity of egress into the Mediterranean?
The answer to the first part of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. I am consulting the other Powers most directly interested in the traffic as to whether some temporary measure of this kind for relieving the congestion of traffic cannot be brought about, if a channel for traffic is not opened as it was hoped it might be early this week.
Persia (Reported Arrest of Members of Late Mejliss)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether the Persian Government have begun a series of arrests of members of the late Mejliss, and whether His Majesty's Government will communicate with the Persian Government, deprecating vindictive action, and urging either the release of those arrested or their open trial at an early date?
We have received no information on the subject from His Majesty's Representative at Tehran.
Has the hon. Member seen the telegram in to-day's "Times" referring to this matter, and will he make inquiries as soon as possible?
I can only say that we cannot undertake to interfere in any action which the Persian Government may take on its own initiative and which does not affect foreign interests.
May I ask whether it is still possible for the Constitutionalists in Persia to take bast with the British Legation, and whether that privilege is also being denied them?
The privilege of taking bast remains. It has been largely abused, but it remains as it has been.
Margarine (Prosecutions)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture, if his attention had been called to the convictions of William Joseph Dawson, trading as the Oak Park Dairy Company, at 513, Birkbeck Bank Chambers, Holborn, London, at the Eastbourne Police Court on 25th March, 1912, when he was fined £10 and costs, and at the Bradford Police Court on 11th April, 1912, when he was fined £10 and £4 6s. costs for selling as butter that which on analysis was found to be margarine, also to the proceedings which were taken in Dublin by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction on 5th May, 1910, against Michael J. Dawson and William J. Dawson, trading as the Hibernian Produce Company, for having in their possession on their premises five packages containing margarine, which were not marked such in accordance with the Statute, when the first-named defendant was fined £10 and £20 costs; whether he would say if a letter was received by the Board on 12th March, 1912, followed by a telegram on 15th March, urging the Board to take up, or to get the Director of Public Prosecutions to take up, the cases against William Joseph Dawson at Eastbourne and Bradford; and, if so, why no reply was sent to either communication till 22nd March, three days before the first charge was to be heard; and on what grounds the Board of Agriculture refused to undertake or share in the expense of the prosecution, and declined to ask the Director of Public Prosecutions to inquire into the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The Board received a letter and telegram on the dates referred to in the second part of the question from the town clerk of Eastbourne. During the interval between the receipt of these communications and the Board's reply the Board were endeavouring, by examination of certain margarine registers, to obtain information for the assistance of the local authority. The Board have no authority to take over or share in the expense of prosecutions instituted by a local authority, and, in the circumstances, it appeared desirable that any communications with the Public Prosecutor should proceed from the local authority directly rather than through the Board.
Have the Board of Agriculture in this country powers similar to those possessed by the Department of Agriculture in Ireland?
I could not answer that without notice.
Was there clear evidence that this margarine was sold fraudulently?
I must have notice of that question.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether the Board's officers had kept observation upon the wholesale factory from which the margarine was supplied as butter by William Joseph Dawson; whether prosecutions had been undertaken aganist any firm or firms for sending out margarine without the same being properly marked margarine; and what steps the Board were taking to protect agriculturists, tradesmen, and the public against frauds of this kind?
The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. As to the first and third parts, I would say that continuous attention is given to this matter by an experienced staff of inspectors with a view to detect and punish frauds of the character in question. It would not be practicable, or desirable, to give publicity to the steps taken or contemplated.
Anglo-Indian Cablegrams
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is in a position to state the number of cablegrams that were sent to India from this country and vice versâ , in the clear and in code, respectively, between the 1st January and 31st December, 1911?
I am informed that the number of telegrams sent to India from this country during the period in question was 206,587, and from India to this country 233,196. It is not practicable to give exact figures showing how many were in plain and how many in code language, but it is estimated that about 21,000 of the outward telegrams and 23,000 of the inward telegrams were in plain language and the rest in code language.
Oxford Post Office
asked the Postmaster-General whether, now that the new Committee has reported and a revision of the indoor force at Oxford General Post Office is about to take place, he will reconsider the question of postmen being employed in sorting and dispatching news and packets and retransferring that duty to sorting clerks and telegraphists?
My reply to the Noble Lord's previous question on 21st March referred to the New Select Committee, which has just been appointed by the House, but has not yet begun its labours. I have therefore nothing to add to the terms of the replies already given.
Postmen and Postal Clerks
asked the Postmaster-General if he will state the pay of postmen and postal clerks in county and urban districts in England and Ireland, respectively?
The Post Office scales of pay are identical in English and Irish offices of the same class. For the rates in force and the classification of the offices I would refer the hon. Member to a White Paper issued in July, 1908, and entitled "Post Offices (Changes in Wages, etc.)," a copy of which I will send him.
Channel Islands Cable
asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware that the cable to Jersey is broken, which is an almost annual occurrence; whether this cable when laid was an old cable; and, if so, will he advise the laying of a new and a sound cable?
The cable between Guernsey and Jersey was interrupted last Wednesday, but it was restored next day. It is in satisfactory condition. It is not the case that interruptions are frequent, and there is no need for a new cable.
It all depends upon what is meant by the word "restored "; in the last two or three years—
The hon. Member is giving information—not asking for it.
Post Office (Telephone Engineers' and Stores Departments)
asked the Postmaster-General whether notice has been given to the staff in the telephone engineering and stores department that four days' pay is to be held back from them; and, if so, what are the reasons for so doing; and whether the same course is going to be taken in other departments?
This matter was fully explained in an answer to a question put by the hon. Member for West-houghton on the 17th instant, and for the reasons then given I am unable to alter my decision. I have, however, made arrangements under which the amount paid to the men will be equal to their full earnings for the week.
Established Church (Wales) Bill
asked the Secretary for the Home Department whether any alteration is suggested with regard to the ownership of lay tithe in Wales, and what is the annual value of such tithe?
The Bill will effect no change in the ownership of lay tithe. As to the value of such tithe, I would refer the hon. Member to the written answer of the President of the Board of Agriculture to a question put down by the hon. Member for Plymouth on the 5th of March last.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is the difference between the origin and the intention of these tithes—
That is argument; the hon. Member will have his opportunity on the Second Reading.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state the amount of endowments held by the Church in the dioceses of Llan-daff, Bangor, St. David's, and St. Asaph, and the amount of endowments held by Nonconformist bodies in Wales and Monmouth shire?
The amount of the endowments held by the Church of England in each of the four Welsh dioceses is given in detail in the Return prepared for the Royal Commission on the Church in Wales by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty. It is published in the volume of Appendices to the Commissioner's Report, Cd. 5432–1. I have no information as to the amount of endowments held by the Nonconformist bodies in Wales and Monmouthshire.
Wellingborough Police Court (Theft of Firewood)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to-the fining of two lads, aged twelve and ten years, by the Wellingborough bench for stealing firewood from a fence during the coal strike; whether he is aware that these boys were sent to prison, their fathers. being out of work; and whether he will see that the fines are remitted and the boys, liberated?
I have made inquiry, and find my hon. Friend has been misinformed with regard to several material particulars in this case. The offence with which the two children—a boy and girl,, not, as stated, two boys—were charged involved the destruction of a growing fence. They were never taken into custody, nor were they sent to prison. The penalty of 15s., which included costs and damages, was, under Section 99 of the Children Act, imposed on the father, but time was given for payment, and it was paid within five days. The father was not out of work at the time, though he was working short time. As ho one was sent to prison, no question of liberation arises.
Loch Long Torpedo Range (Workmen's Housing)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention had been drawn to the condition of workmen's housing which prevails upon the Admiralty works at the new torpedo range-at Loch Long; whether he is aware that some of the navvies and labourers live in tents constructed of old sacks in open fields, others sleep in the temporary floor-less smithy, and some among the cement in the temporary cement shed on the works; if this is to be the normal condition. of housing on public works carried out under his Department; and, if not, what action he proposes to take to effect a remedy?
This is the. first information which has been received of any difficulty in the matter. I will cause inquiry to be made and have the facts ascertained.
Will the inquiry take place at once?
Certainly.
Has the Department already received some communication from the residents objecting to the conditions under which the Admiralty have made the range?
Not to my know ledge.
Devonport Dockyard
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the discharge of boiler-makers in the Devonport Dockyard; whether he is aware that the work which used to be done by boilermakers is now being done by shipwrights, and that certain boilermakers have been offered work as labourers to shipwrights at the rate of 24s. a week instead of 36s., the money they would have earned as boilermakers; and whether, having regard to discipline in the Royal dockyards, he will take steps to provide that tradesmen from whom work has been taken are not asked to act as labourers to the men to whom that work has been given?
With regard to the discharges on reduction I must refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave him on 15th April. To that I have to add that no alteration has been made in the demarcation of work between boilermakers and shipwrights. As regards the third part of the question, boilermakers under notice of discharge have been informed that they will be considered for entry as rivetters in the constructive department if they choose to apply for such labour. This course has been adopted with a view to minimising distress.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that a member of the naval sick berth staff at Devonport has been deprived of a good-conduct badge for appearing on a stage without permission; and whether he will state what article in the King's Regulations confers upon the captain the power to administer such a punishment for such an offence?
By a recent Admiralty Order active service ratings generally have been prohibited from taking part in public entertainments at music-halls, etc., not for charitable purposes, but as a matter of business, and receiving pay: ment for their services. This Order was. posted in the sick-berth stewards mess,. and the attention of the man in question was specifically called to it. He was. punished for disobeying it.
International Exhibition at Ghent
asked the President of the Board of Trade-if he will state at what date an invitation to participate officially in the International Exhibition at Ghent, Belgium, was received; and whether he is aware that the delay in sending a reply is causing inconvenience to British traders proposing to send exhibits to the exhibition and giving a decided advantage to our commercial rivals in foreign countries?
The invitation in question was received in November last. The delay in arriving at a decision as to participation has been due to the necessity for ascertaining the probable attitude of other countries towards the exhibition; and the amount of support likely to be accorded by British exhibitors if we participated officially. I have not received any representation to the effect suggested1 in the last part of the question.
When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be in a position to give a reply?
I cannot say off hand. If the hon. Member will give me notice I will give him an answer later.
Government of Ireland Bill
Finance (Mr. Ennis's Report)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Report of Mr. Ennis, chairman of the General Council of Irish County Councils, was submitted to any Member of the Government and by him to the Committee on Irish Finance; whether Mr. Ennis's Report was printed as an Appendix to the Report of that Committee; and, if so, whether he will publish it?
The Committee on Irish Finance had before them a copy of Mr. Ennis's Report. The Report was printed as an Appendix to the Minutes of Evidence, and has also been published by the General Council of Irish County Councils, who have circulated copies to all who desire them. No further publication is necessary.
asked the Prime Minister whether the financial provisions of the Government of Ireland Bill were founded upon the recommendations of any Special Committee appointed for the purpose subsequently to the presentation of the Report of the Committee presided over by Sir H. W. Primrose; if so, who were the members of that Committee; and, if not, upon whose recommendations were the financial provisions founded?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The financial provisions of the Bill are the result of the deliberations of His Majesty's Government, who accept full responsibility for them.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state why His Majesty's Government did not accept the recommendation of Sir Henry Primrose's Committee?
I suppose His Majesty's Government are at liberty to accept or reject any advice given.
I asked what your reasons were.
Irish Fisheries
asked whether the Convention with France of 1839 relating to fisheries and the Act (6 and 7 Vic, c. 79), giving statutory effect to the Regulations of the Commissioners appointed under that Convention, are still in force; whether the Regulations of the Privy Council under this Statute affecting Irish fisheries are still operative; and, if so, whether, under the powers conferred by the Government of Ireland Bill, these Regulations could in future be modified or abrogated by an Order of His Majesty in Council on the advice of the Imperial or the Irish Executive?
I understand that the Convention and the Regulations under it are still in force. The Irish Parliament are precluded by Sub-section (4) of Clause 2 of the Bill from dealing with such matters. A like restriction applies to the Irish Executive.
Are the fisheries specially mentioned in the Government of Ireland Bill?
No, Sir.
Second Reading
asked whether, in view of the fact that twelve days were allowed by Mr. Gladstone for each of the First Readings of the Home Rule Bills of 1886 and 1893, and that twenty-seven and forty-nine days respectively, elapsed between the passing of the First Reading and the Motion for the Second Reading of those Bills, he can see his way to postpone the Motion for the Second Reading of the Government of Ireland Bill, and to allow more time for its discussion in this House?
The answer is in the negative. I am aware of the facts mentioned by the hon. Member, but, as pointed out by the Prime Minister in his speech on the introduction of the Government of Ireland Bill, the circumstances are very different from those of 1886 and 1893.
Does the restriction of the power of the Second Chamber render discussion in this House less necessary?
Financial Relations Committee
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will publish that portion of the evidence given before the Committee on Irish Finance in regard to which no pledge of secrecy was made?
If there is really any desire on the part of any body of Members of this House for the publication of the evidence in question, I will consider whether so much of it as can be published without disregard to the wishes of the witnesses can be printed and issued.
How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to gauge the desire of hon. Members of this House?
Through the usual channels. There are methods by which hon. Members can communicate their views to the Government on a subject of this kind.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries as to how many witnesses will allow their evidence to be published, and will he answer a question on the subject?
I think the first step would be a communication from hon. Members of this House expressing a desire of that kind. If there is such a desire I agree with the Noble Lord that the next step undoubtedly would be to communicate with the witnesses.
Joint Exchequer Board
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will say on the advice of what responsible Minister His Majesty is to appoint the Chairman of the Joint Exchequer Board contemplated in the Government of Ireland Bill?
On the advice of the Prime Minister.
Contagious Diseases of Animals
asked whether, under the Government of Ireland Bill, the Imperial Parliament will retain any control over contagious diseases of animals in Ireland; and whether, without the passage of fresh legislation in this country it will be possible, in view of apprehended risk to British flocks and herds, to prevent the importation into Great Britain of Irish store cattle?
There is nothing in the Bill to deprive the Imperial Parliament of legislative powers with regard to diseases of animals in Ireland. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative.
Irish Members at Westminster
asked if Members of the Irish House of Commons and of the Senate will be all eligible to sit in the House of Commons at Westminster under the Government of Ireland Bill?
Membership of the Irish House of Commons or Senate will mot of itself be a disqualification for Membership of this House.
Salaries of Irish Members
asked if the Irish taxpayers will contribute to the fund out of which the salaries of the forty Irish Members who sire to sit in the House of Commons at Westminster will be paid?
Yes, when the deficiency is extinguished. Under the existing system the Irish taxpayer makes no effective contribution.
Is it not a fact that all the money to be contributed by the Irish tax payer is more than hypothecated already to the Irish services?
No, Sir.
Questions
Reform Bill
asked whether it is still the intention of the Government to make itself responsible for carrying a Reform Bill through all its stages in the House of Commons this Session?
I am not yet able to make any statement on the subject.
Resources and Trade of Dominions
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will use his influence with the Member for Lincoln to remove from the Order Paper of the House of Commons the blocking Motion which prevents a discussion being raised upon the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the resources and trade of the Dominions?
I will make all possible arrangements by which the hon. Member will be enabled to raise this question at some convenient, appropriate, and, if possible, early date.
Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to influence the Member for Lincoln to remove his Motion from the Order Paper?
I do not think I can add anything to the very sympathetic answer I have already given.
Railways Bill
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman can say what is the meaning of the term working agreement as employed in Clause 8 of the Government Railways Bill; and, if the term has no precise meaning, whether he will include a definition of it in the interpretation Clause at the end of the Bill?
The term "working agreement" does not occur in the text of the Clause, which seems to set out clearly the nature of the agreements with which it deals, namely, agreements between railway companies as to the maintenance and management of their respective railways, the use and working of their railways, and the fixing, collection, and apportionment of all fares, rates, charges, or other receipts taken in respect of traffic on their railways.
So far as the eon-signing public are concerned, is there any difference now between an amalgamation and a working agreement?
That is a question for discussion. If the hon. Member thinks the term is not sufficiently definite, I should be glad to consider the point in Committee. It is one of the points to which attention has been called.
Lossiemouth Harbour Provisional Order
asked if the right hon. Gentleman will state on what date the Lossiemouth Harbour Provisional Order application reached the Board of Trade, and on what date it was sent on to the Scottish Office; and whether there was anything unusual in the delay in this case?
The application was received by the Board of Trade on 23rd December last. In accordance with the Regulations of the Board of Trade, the promoters submitted their proposals to the Secretary for Scotland not later than 1st December last. I understand that there were exceptional difficulties in this case, due to the necessity of considering this scheme in its relation to schemes for other fishery harbours in the Moray Firth.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these delays cause suspense and render the benefits of the Development Fund less valuable to the poor communities?
I quite agree. We shall expedite the matter as far as we can. We have had rather special difficulties to deal with.
Captains and Officers (Scales of Pay)
asked (1) whether the right hon. Gentleman can furnish the scales of pay of captains and officers employed in the different large merchant steamship companies engaged in the business of carrying passengers, cargo, and His Majesty's mails; and the scales of pay of captains and officers employed in the various cross-Channel services and large coasting steamship companies, and the approximate scales applying to what are termed tramp steamers and sailing ships; and (2) what is the pay of the captains and officers in their respective capacities engaged in merchant vessels chartered by the Government for the carriage of troops and other purposes, and what system of officers' watches is followed in each case; what is the pay an each case of the captains and officers serving in the various steamers of companies, such as the Cunard Line, in receipt of annual subsidies from His Majesty's Government; and what system of officers' watches is followed?
I will answer this and Question number 68 of the hon. Member together. I regret that I cannot give the information in the form asked for. A good deal of information, however, on the subject of the rates of pay of persons (including officers) employed in the mercantile marine will be found in the published Tables relating to the progress of Merchant Shipping, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy. As regards the system of officers' watches, there is no official information available.
National Insueance Act
Medical Attendance
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury where workmen, insured under the provisions of the National Insurance Act, have made efficient provision through the medium of their works' doctor for medical attendance and medicine for themselves and family, will such member be refunded by the Insurance Commissioners or the local health committees, as the case may be, the amount provided for such insured person or persons for such service, or what provision will be made to insure that insured persons will not be called upon to pay for a service which they have already made efficient provision for?
Organisations of the kind referred to in the question which were in existence at the time of the passing of the Act and which provide an efficient medical service can be approved under the special provisions of Sub-section (4) of Section 15 of the Act, or, alternatively, cases of the kind can be dealt with under Sub-section (3) in such a way as to prevent insured persons being required to pay twice for their medical attendance.
English Commissioners
asked if a woman shorthand writer typist has been appointed to the office of the English National Insurance Commissioners from outside the service at the salary of 31s. a week, which is the maximum wage obtainable by women shorthand writer typists after three years' service as typists, beginning at 20s. a week and a further three years' service as shorthand writer typists; whether many qualified women typists in the Service with over three years' service are waiting for promotion to the class of women shorthand typists; and, if so, why the shorthand typist has been brought from the outside to fill the post in the Insurance Office, and why she has been placed at once at the maximum salary of the class?
The shorthand typist referred to had had nine years' service on the staff of five Royal Commissions before being selected for appointment as a shorthand typist by the Insurance Commissioners. She was appointed at the maximum of the class, in view of the higher salary she had been previously earning, of her special qualifications, and of her long previous service and experience, and also of the difficulty found by the Commissioners in obtaining persons within the Service of similar qualifications and experience who were willing to come.
Am I to assume from that reply this young lady was not previously a member of the established Civil Service?
No; she has been working upon Royal Commissions for nine years.
She has not been a member of the Civil Service?
No.
Am I to understand it was impossible to get any woman shorthand typist in the Civil Service to accept this post?
I understand it was impossible to get those with the requisite qualifications to come. Some of them did come, but they preferred to go back to their own Department.
Scottish Advisory Committee (Mr. Grieve)
asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to. a statement attributed to Mr. Grieve, at a delegates' meeting of the Glasgow district of Shepherds, that that society intended to pay the 4d. of their chronic invalid members for two years after the National Insurance Act comes into operation, so as to enable such members to receive the invalidity benefit under the Act and thus relieve the funds of their lodge; whether such a course will be permitted; and whether Mr. Grieve is a member of the Advisory Committee under the Act?
Mr. Grieve is a member of the Advisory Committee to the Scottish Commission. I have seen a newspaper report of the statement to which the Noble Lord refers. No person can become insured under the National Insurance Act unless he is either employed, or is engaged in some regular occupation on which he is wholly or mainly dependent for his livelihood. Persons who are already chronic invalids would not therefore be entitled, by any payment of contributions, to become a permanent charge on the State side of the accounts of their society.
On what principle is the Advisory Committee appointed?
The principle is to obtain as much advice as possible from all the various classes of persons affected by the Act.
Was Mr. Grieve appointed on that principle?
Mr. Grieve is, I believe, a very distinguished member of one of the principal friendly societies.
Medical Capitation Grant
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he proposes to use any, and what, portion of the six-million surplus to increase the money available for the doctors' capitation grant under the Insurance Act?
I have nothing at present to add to my Budget statement.
Questions
Land Taxes
asked what amount it is estimated that the Land Taxes under the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, will produce in the present year; and what is the probable total cost of their collection?
The estimated yield of the duties on Land Values for the current year is £545,000. As regards the cost of the collection, I would refer the hon. Member to my replies to the question of the hon. Member for Bedford on 15th February last and to the question of the hon. Member for Oswestry on 22nd instant.
Will the hon. Gentleman give us the figures for each tax separately.
I have already given the figures to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) in the first Debate on the Budget. I think I can probably furnish them in the course of the Debate to-day.
The Report on the First Reading states that it is the estimated receipts for the past year. What is now being asked about is the estimated receipts for the current year. We asked them "what are the receipts for the past year." We got the estimated receipts. We now ask for the estimated receipts for the current year, and the hon. Gentleman refers us back to the answer given on the previous occasion.
I think the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that I answered the question as it was on the Paper. It is quite right I gave the estimated receipts for the next year. I will see if I can find the yield under the various heads before the Debate closes to-day.
What I asked, and what the House understood the answer referred to, was the yield of the past year.
May I ask whether the Mineral Rights Duty is included or excluded?
It is included in the Land Duties.
Government Departments (Dublin)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether there are any Govern- ment Departments in Dublin asking for further office accommodation; and, if so what are the Departments demanding such accommodation, and where is their work being carried on at present?
The Board of Works have under their consideration applications for additional accommodation from the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, the Local Government Board, the Customs and Excise Department, and the Quit Rent Office. These Departments are at present accommodated in Upper Merrion Street, Great Brunswick Street and Beresford Place, 3, Ormond Quay, and at the Custom House. The best method of meeting their requirements are under consideration.
May I ask if any negotiations are at present pending for the acquisition of further private houses in Dublin for public purposes?
Not so far as I know, but I am in communication both with the hon. Member and the Office of Works upon the subject.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a Resolution of the Dublin Corporation has been unanimously passed recently complaining of the ever-growing practice of taking private houses for public buildings in Dublin?
Non-Provided Schools (Anglesey)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware that the chairman of the Anglesey education authority has advised that authority that, whenever the decision of the Board of Education is given with regard to the treatment of non-provided schools on the lines of the judgment given in the Swansea case, he should advise the committee to accept that decision and avoid all possible litigation; and whether the Board is now able to give its decision in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am still in communication both with the authority and the managers. The education committee meet again on 2nd May, and I understand that the matter will then be further considered. A settlement by agreement will obviously be the best solution of the question, and I still hope it may not be necessary for me to intervene. If an agreement is not arrived at a public inquiry will, I think, be necessary before the Board could determine whether the local education authority are carrying out their duty to maintain and keep efficient the Menai Bridge, Llandysilio Church of England school.
Will the public inquiry be undertaken by a representative of the Board of Education?
Usually barristers are appointed, and we will pursue the usual course.
Schools Closed (Cardiff and Swansea)
asked how many schools out of the eighty-nine Church of England schools closed or transferred to local authorities since 1903 are in the county boroughs of Cardiff and Swansea, respectively?
One Church of England school has been closed since 1903 in each of the county boroughs referred to. None have been transferred to either local education authority.
Education Bill (School Attendance and Street Trading).]
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he proposes to introduce this Session the Education (School and Continuation Class Attendance) Bill, or any other like measure dealing simultaneously with partial exemption from school attendance, continuation classes, and the employment of children of school age as street traders or otherwise?
I am not proposing this Session to introduce legislation on the subjects referred to, but an opportunity for discussing them may possibly be found in Committee in connection with the Bills introduced by the hon. Member for Saffron Walden and the hon. Member for Scarborough, which are now before Standing Committees.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take some steps to prevent what is really one subject being dealt with by the two Bills to which he refers?
I do not accept the hon. Member's statement. The subject of street trading is rather different from the subject of the continuation of education which was referred to in the Debate on Friday last.
Education (Scotland) Act
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he can state, or will he agree to a Return showing the number of amalgamations of school boards or school districts carried out under Section 22 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, and the objections or representations, if any., made by the school boards interested?
Fifteen amalgamations have been carried out in terms of Section 22 of the Act named. Of these, six were by mutual arrangement and without formal inquiry. In the other cases, any points of difference were adjusted as a result of the formal inquiry which was held. In only two cases did representations as to details of the Draft Order restate previous objections to the principle of amalgamation.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he has received a petition signed by the ratepayers of the parish of Banff, Landward, and Ord, expressing their unanimous opposition to the Order of the Scottish Education Department for the amalgamation of that parish with Banff burgh; and whether, in view of this petition, he will refuse to ratify the Order?
The petition referred to has been received and will be duly considered in terms of the Act along with any other representations that have been or may be received.
Will the Reports upon it by the Education Department be furnished to the school boards interested?
I should like to have notice of that question.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he will consider the desirability of an Amending Bill to secure that no amalgamations of school district shall be carried out unless both school districts concerned are consenting parties to the arrangement?
I see no sufficient reason for proposing an amendment, of the existing law on the subject.
Suffragist Prosecutions (Mrs. Pankhurst)
asked the Attorney-General why the Crown objected to the postponement of Mrs. Pankhurst's trial till the next Session in order to allow her time in her present state of health to prepare her defence?
The application for postponement of the trial was opposed because, according to the medical testimony, Mrs. Pankhurst's state of health was not such as to interfere with the preparation of her defence. The learned judge considered the evidence and came to the same conclusion. The Crown did, however, assent to the postponement of the trial till the latest date available in the present Session.
Vaccination (Emigrants to Canada)
asked the Secretary for the Colonies whether emigrants to Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa are admitted without being compulsorily vaccinated, and, if so, whether experience has shown the same immunity from smallpox as Canada, which insists upon vaccination of emigrants; whether he is aware that England's record in regard to ship-borne vaccination is as good as that of Canada, in spite of the total absence of vaccination regulations for steerage passengers entering this country; whether he will state the reason why Canada makes a distinction between steerage and saloon passengers in the vaccination regulations; and whether he will suggest to the authorities of the Canadian Government the advisability of bringing her regulations into agreement with those of the Home-country and the other Dominions?
The matters referred to by the hon. Member have been brought before me in correspondence, but I am not prepared to press the Government of the Dominion of Canada to modify the regulations which they consider it necessary to enforce.
All-British Cable (Halifax-Bermuda)
asked the Secretary for the Colonies if he has now received details of the scheme for the all-British Halifax-Bermuda cable to Barba-does, British Guiana, and Trinidad; if the Government have had the scheme under consideration; and what is the course it intends to pursue?
The answer is in the negative.
Tree Cutting, Chelsea
May I ask the Under-Secretary of State for War a question, of which I have given private notice, whether he is aware that some of the finest trees in the grounds of the new Territorial headquarters at Chelsea (formerly known as the Duke of York's Royal Military School) have just been cut down; why that was done, and whether it was done with the sanction of the War Office; whether it is intended to denude these grounds of their timber; and whether he can promise that the remaining trees there will be spared?
There has not been time since the hon. Member gave notice of the question to ascertain the details in this case. I shall be glad if he will repeat the question to-morrow. In the meantime instructions have been sent that no further cutting shall take place.
Loss of Steamship "Titanic."
United States Inquiry
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he was aware that, at the Senatorial inquiry in the United States into the "Titanic" disaster, one senator asked a witness if watertight compartments were intended for the reception of passenegrs in a time of danger, and that witnesses had been brought before the inquiry when in a condition of health which precluded their being able to give evidence in a satisfactory manner; and, if so, would he give the assurance that no official notice whatever would be taken of the inquiry now taking place in the United States?
May I suggest to my hon. Friend that it is undesirable by questions and answers in this House to make reference on the basis of imperfect and possibly inaccurate reports, to the proceedings of the committee of the Senate of the United States Congress. The President of the Board of Trade is taking steps to obtain verbatim reports of the proceedings of the committee in question, in case they may be of service in connection with the investigations of the Court of Inquiry about to be held here into the loss of the steamship "Titanic."
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether some of the passengers and crew of the "Titanic," although British subjects not charged with any criminal offence, had been forcibly detained in America by order of a committee of the Senate of the United States; whether this action of the Senate was in pursuance of any treaty between Great Britain and the United States, or of any international convention; and whether His Majesty's Government had addressed or proposed to address to the Government of the United States any protest against such a violation of the rights of British subjects?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any communications had passed between this Government and the United States Government concerning the forcible detention of British passengers of the "Titanic"; and if he could state the substance of such communications and the result?
No complaints have been received by the Secretary of State of forcible detention of British subjects. The committee in question has statutory power to summon witnesses, and no treaty or convention is required to give United States authorities jurisdiction over British subjects while within the territory of the United States. The answer to the last question is in the negative.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether he had issued any instructions to the British Ambassador in the United States to take any steps to protect the interests of British subjects who were cited to appear before the American Senate's committee which was inquiring into the loss of the "Titanic "? And (2) whether the loss of the "Titanic," which was now the subject of an inquiry by a committee of American politicians, was a matter which was within the jurisdiction of British courts; whether British subjects were being detained in America for the purposes of the American committee; and, if so, whether he had addressed any communication to the American Government on this matter?
The answer to the first part of the latter question is in the affirmative. The second part of the question is answered by the reply to the hon. Member for East Kent, which I have just given. The position appears to be that the Senate Committee is within its rights in holding an inquiry and requiring the attendance of witnesses. In view of the fact that there has been considerable loss of American as well as British life, it is not unreasonable that American authorities should hold an inquiry with a view to considering for themselves what conditions are desirable to ensure safety for traffic across the Atlantic, and it would be undesirable that witnesses in a position to give evidence should refuse to do so. On the other hand, it would be undesirable that British subjects who wish to return home should be put to undue inconvenience by being detained for an unreasonable time. The latest information received indicates that the proceedings of the Committee are not likely to be very prolonged as far as the attendance of British witnesses is concerned, and no official communication has yet been made to the United States Government on the subject.
Is the information to which the hon. Member refers official or only that which appears in the public Press?
Has the Foreign Office addressed any communication to the American Government?
I said that we had not.
False Reports
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is now in a position to state the origin of the false reports circulated regarding the safety of the "Titanic"?
I have received promises of full assistance in my inquiries from the shipping companies concerned and from the Marconi Company, but the records of some of the ships which were Westward bound have not yet arrived, and therefore it has not been possible to complete the inquiry. So far the origin of the false reports has not been traced to any ship.
Automatic Receivers
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that there is an effective invention of Commander Hobland, of the Norwegian navy, for automatic receivers for Marconi apparatus-recording messages in typewriting; and whether he has secured the right to use the invention for the British Navy and shore stations?
The answer is in the negative. Many so-called automatic recorders have been invented at one time and another and claim efficiency; but I understand they all have, and must have under existing conditions, the inherent defect of not being able to distinguish between simultaneous signals on or near the same wave length. All His Majesty's ships of any size carry sufficient operators for continuous watch, who receive and discriminate between simultaneous signals in a way at present impossible for any automatic apparatus.
May I ask whether the Admiralty are not experimenting with the Poison system, which was worked automatically before Post Office experts in October, and at twice the rate of the Marconi system?
Perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice.
Will the hon. Gentleman watch the report of the lecture shortly to be given at the Royal Institution on this system?
Certainly.
asked whether he is aware that there is an effective invention of Commander Hobland, of the Norwegian navy, for automatic receivers for wireless apparatus-recording messages in typewriting; whether he has any official information showing that the world rights have been secured by the German Government; and what steps he has taken or intends to take to secure the rights to use the invention in installations on shore in this country and the Dominions and on the British mercantile marine?
My advisers are acquainted with a number of automatic receivers, but I have no specific information about the particular invention referred to by the hon. Member. I am having inquiry made on the subject.
Telegrams for Canada and United States
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is prepared to arrange for the public use of the Marconi wireless system between this country and America?
On application from the Marconi Company I have made arrangements to accept from the public, on and from 1st May, at all telegraph offices in the United Kingdom, telegrams addressed to places in Canada and the United States for transmission by the company's wireless Transatlantic service. The company have notified that the full rate for telegrams sent by their route to New York or to Montreal will be eightpence a word, the rate for cablegrams being one shilling a word, and that there will be a similar reduction in the full rates for telegrams for other parts of America. For deferred telegrams in plain language the rate to New York will be fourpence a word, the cablegram rate being sixpence, with corresponding reductions for other places.
Will the Marconi Company give any time guarantee?
Does the hon. Member mean deferred telegrams?
No; in regard to service—as to the speed and transmission.
Not, so far as I am aware of.
Atlantic Routes
asked whether the captains of the Atlantic liners have a definite route laid down for them to follow going west or east; whether any, and, if so, what discretion is allowed to the captain for him to judge of the necessity for deviating from the course laid down on account of ice, fog, or any obstruction; and whether any captains have been censured or discharged for deviating from their course?
I understand that the routes taken by passenger vessels across the Atlantic have been laid down to a certain extent by the Steamship Companies, but I am not aware of the amount of discretion given to masters of ships of these companies. I have no doubt that the matter is one which will be considered by the Court of Inquiry into the loss of the steamship "Titanic."
Stewards on Passenger Vessels
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will inquire from independent sources whether stewards on passenger and tourist ships are habitually overworked, unprovided with sleeping accommodation, or hours for meals; and whether, if he finds there is evidence to that effect, he will direct the attention of the Court of Inquiry to the danger to the public resulting from such a State of affairs?
If my hon. Friend can furnish me with definite information showing that there are grounds for complaints with reference to the matters mentioned in his question, I will investigate such complaints. Should any information placed before me appear relevant to the investigation of the Court of Inquiry into the loss of the "Titanic," I should not fail to bring it to the attention of the Court.
Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Court of Inquiry to be presided over by Lord Mersey will have powers conferred upon it to make regulations compelling shipowners to carry sufficient boats, rafts, and collapsible boats to accommodate the whole of the passengers and crew; and, if not, whether the Board of Trade will immediately take steps to convene an independent inquiry thereon?
The making of the regulations as to life-saving appliances on ships rests, under Section 427 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, with the Board of Trade, subject to the rules being laid before Parliament. Any recommendations on the subject that are made by the Court of Inquiry into the loss of the "Titanic" will, of course, receive the fullest possible consideration by the Board of Trade. As I have already informed the House, the whole matter is under very careful inquiry.
Will it not be necessary for the Wreck Commissioners to base their findings entirely on the Board of Trade Regulaions laid down at the present time?
They have the fullest possible powers of making any report on the matter, to which, I need hardly say, we shall give the utmost possible consideration.
In making that report, will the Court of Inquiry have the power to make the necessary regulations, because unless regulations are made they will not be binding upon the shipowners?
As I have pointed out to the hon. Member, the statutory obligation of making regulations falls on the Board of Trade; obviously it is not a thing for the Court of Inquiry. But any recommendations they make will be considered most carefully.
May I take it that the Wreck Commissioners will only be able to recommend regulations to the Board of Trade?
I have said so three times.
The hon. Member is only asking the same question.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman can indicate on what date the investigation into the loss of the "Titanic," by Lord Mersey's Court of Inquiry, will open?
The investigation will open on Thursday next.
asked what number of assessors will assist the Wreck Commissioner in the "Titanic" Inquiry; who they are; and what are their respective capacities or qualifications?
The President of the Board of Trade has asked me to reply to this question. Five Assessors have been appointed, as already announced in the Press. They are as follows: Rear-Admiral Calthorpe, formerly Captain of the Fleet and Commodore First Class on the Staff of the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Fleet; Professor Biles, Professor of Naval Architecture at Glasgow; Captain A. W. Clarke, Elder Brother of the Trinity House; Commander Lyon, formerly a captain in the Peninsular and Oriental Steamship Company; and Mr. Chaston, who is a marine engineer of Newcastle.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how it is, after the approval of the House, there is no assessor representing purely the labour side and no assessor representing the travelling public?
The assessors act in a judicial capacity, or, rather, they advise the judge, and their office is one requiring expert knowledge; they do not sit in any sense in a representative capacity.
Surely a man who has practical knowledge from the labour point of view would be a helpful assessor, and the man who has taken part as a passenger would also be very helpful as an assessor. Why are these two excluded?
My hon. Friend, if he will forgive me for saying so, is rather mixing up the proper subject for evidence with the proper subjects to be advised upon by expert advisers, who are called assessors. No doubt passengers and persons representative from the labour point of view will be called as witnesses.
Why not have them as assessors?
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House the exact question which is remitted to this judicial tribunal for decision?
That question does not arise out of the answer.
Is it in the power of the Home Secretary to add further assessors, and can he do so even while the inquiry is proceeding?
Yes, Sir, I could, certainly; but I could only add assessors of the same kind as those prescribed by Statutory Rules, and they do not provide for appointing assessors of a representative character.
Could you have an assessor connected with the Seamen's and Firemen's Union?
No, Sir.
Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would appoint a special counsel to represent the passengers and labour people in connection with this inquiry?
I understand from my right hon. Friend that full opportunity will be given to counsel to appear.
Will the Government pay them?
Arising out of the original answer, does not the right hon. Gentleman think the association of Professor Biles with work of construction on behalf of Messrs. Harland and Woolff places him in a somewhat difficult position as a member of this Inquiry?
I am not aware that Professor Biles has been associated with Messrs. Harland and Woolff, but, if that is so, I should think it would be difficult to find any well-known expert who had not in some way or other been associated with that firm.
In answer to my hon. Friend, I did give him an answer the other day, but I would be glad if he would give me notice.
Mr. JOHN WARD rose—
I think hon. Members had better put down any further questions.
Manning Boats
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in the event of Regulations being made to increase the boats and other life-saving apparatus, he will consider the necessity for increasing the number of deck hands in order that there may be sufficient competent seamen for manning such boats?
The question of the number of competent hands available for launching and manning the boats on passenger steamers in an emergency has obviously an important bearing on the question of increasing the number of boats, and it will certainly be very carefully considered by me in connection therewith.
Increased Life-Boat Accommodation
asked the names of the steamship companies which have agreed to increase the lifeboat accommodation to the full number of passengers carried; and if communications to this effect have been made by the steamship companies to the Board of Trade?
I stated last Tuesday, in reply to a question by the hon. Member for Blackburn, the names of the passenger steamship companies which had then informed the Board of Trade of their intention to provide their vessels with boats and rafts sufficient to accommodate all persons on board, as soon as the necessary boats are obtainable. Since then one or two other companies have informed to the same effect, and I am in communication with others. The names of the companies who have so informed me are as follows:—The Allan, American, Anchor Line, Atlantic Transport, British India, Bucknalls, Canadian Pacific, Cunard, Dominion, Federal Steam Navigation Company, Lamport and Holt, Leyland, New Zealand Shipping Company, P. and O., Pacific Steam Navigation Company, Orient, Red Star, Royal Mail, Royal Line, Shaw Savill and Albion, Thompson's Aberdeen Line, Union Castle, and White Star. Some of these lines already provide boat accommodation for all on board. The companies above-named include 95 per cent, of the number of passenger vessels of 10,000 tons gross and upwards.
Has the right hon. Gentleman received any communication from the Bibby Line?
I think not: it is not m the list I read out. Perhaps I should explain: the conference to which reference was made was only held at very short notice. Some of the lines did not receive intimation of it; some others communicated with me independently. I do not think the Bibby Line is on the list, and therefore I do not think they communicated with me.
United States Authorities and Board of Trade Regulations
asked whether the Board of Trade Regulations governing lifeboat accommodation and life-saving appliances and Board of Trade inspection have been accepted hitherto by the United States authorities as sufficient for their own harbour waters?
British passenger steamers complying with the Board of Trade Regulations as to life-saving appliances and other matters, and holding passenger certificates attesting this compliance, are not subject to inspection in United States waters except as may be necessary to satisfy the local inspectors that the condition of the vessel, her boilers and life-saving equipments is as stated in the certificate.
Children in Steerage
asked whether the proposed British inquiry into the " Titanic " disaster will be able to inquire into the reason why the majority of the children in the steerage were drowned, while they were able to save those in the first and second class, and why the half-filled boats did not return to pick up the drowning as soon as the vessel sank?
Before this question is answered may I ask whether it is in order to put it as the matter is still sub judice?
I did not take it there is anything underlying this question. The answer is certainly.
Excursion Steamers
asked whether at this time of the year the owners of excursion steamers apply for their passenger certificates; and whether, before granting the same, he will require an undertaking for lifeboat accommodation sufficient to carry the authorised number of passengers and crew?
The Board of Trade cannot require as the condition of granting a passenger certificate that a steamer should comply with conditions in excess of those laid down in the Merchant Shipping Acts or in the statutory rules or regulations thereunder, and in such a case the owner of the vessel could appeal to a Court of Survey. The revision of the rules applicable to the class of vessels referred to in the question are under careful consideration.
Merchant Vessels' Equipment
asked whether the life-saving appliances and navigational equipment of merchant vessels are frequently left to the inspection of Board of Trade engineers and shipwright surveyors, and whether these officials have had practical experience at sea of such matters?
The life-saving appliances, lights, fog-signals, etc. of merchant vessels are inspected by the Board of Trade Surveyors of Ships, who are either nautical, engineer, or ship surveyors. The two former classes of surveyors have had practical experience at sea, and all Board of Trade Surveyors receive a course of training in their duties before they are entrusted with the inspection of the life-saving appliances, lights, fog-signals, etc., of vessels.
May I ask my right hon. Friend whether an Inspector from the Board of Trade inspected the collapsible boats on the "Olympic"?
The boats mentioned were in excess; they were inspected, I understand, by a superintendent at Southampton.
Are there not also engineer surveyors, and do I understand the engineer surveyors did not have anything to do with the inspection of the navigational equipment of the ship?
I think there is a question about that later. If not, then perhaps the hon. Member will give me notice.
Navigating Officers
asked how many navigating officers, exclusive of the captain, were carried in the "Titanic"; what system of officers' watches was carried out on board of her; and whether the Board of Trade compel ships to carry navigating officers in some proportion to their tonnage and passenger-carrying capacity?
Seven navigating officers, exclusive of the master, were carried on the "Titanic." I am not able to state what system of watches was adopted. But this question is one within the scope of the Court of Inquiry. The Merchant Shipping Acts require that every foreign going ship and every home trade passenger ship other than a very small vessel shall carry a certificated master and a certificated mate. If a foreign going ship carries more than one mate, at least the first and second mates must be certificated.
Is there any Board of Trade Regulation that goes beyond Section 92 of the Merchant Shipping Act?
I do not like to answer these rather technical questions off hand.
Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee
asked (1) whether, on the appointment of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee in 1906, the then President of the Board of Trade enjoined strict privacy in connection with the proceedings of this Committee; whether, having published the Report as to boat capacity on board ship of the Sub-committee of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee, he will now publish the whole of the correspondence which passed between the Board of Trade and the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee and which led up to the appointment of this Sub-committee; and whether he will also publish a full Report of the proceedings of the Sub-committee previous to their drafting their Report?
asked (2) as the question of life-saving equipment on board merchant ships has once again been remitted by him to the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee, whether he will abandon the privacy of the proceedings of this Committee and throw them open to the Press and the public?
The proceedings of the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee have always been private, like those of other Advisory Committees appointed by the Board of Trade. Reports summarising the work of the Committee are published from time to time, but I consider that it would be contrary to the public interest, and detrimental to the future usefulness of the Committees, if its proceedings and those of its Sub-committees, and correspondence which take place between the Committee and the Board of Trade were to be published. I take this opportunity, by the indulgence of the House, to correct a misapprehension which appears to have arisen out of a recent statement of mine to the House. In stating that the Board of Trade were not satisfied certain provisions recommended by the Committee were altogether adequate, I had no intentions of depreciating in any way the value of the Committee's Report. My sole intention was to explain that what otherwise might have appeared to be an unwarranted delay on the part of the Board of Trade in giving effect to the Committee's recommendations, sprang from the desire to make further experiments and tests, especially with regard to the best form and type of boats designed, to ascertain whether it would not be practicable to go a step further.
I fully recognise that when all this took place both the Committee and the Board of Trade advisers were basing their views as to life-saving equipment on principles which, though generally accepted up to the present by the best expert authorities, have now been called in question by the recent disaster. As the House is aware, the whole question is now being reviewed in the light of the new situation. I have every confidence in the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee as adequately fulfilling the object which Parliament intended it to serve—namely, to give the Board of Trade the great advantage of the knowledge and counsel of persons and bodies specially conversant with maritime questions, without, of course, in any way diminishing the responsibility of the Board of Trade themselves to safeguard the public interest. As I attach great value to the services of the Committee I should greatly regret if any words of mine had inadvertently suggested any lack of appreciation of its work.
Will the Inquiry into the "Titanic " disaster be a public Inquiry?
Certainly, the Inquiry will be public.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think it fair to the Advisory Committee to publish only such portions of their Report as the Board of Trade may think fit?
The particular Report published was one very germane to the present circumstances, and it was published with the assent of the chairman. I thought the House would desire it to be published as it was under the exceptional circumstances.
Is it not a fact that the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee is entirely composed of persons whose business it is to make money out of the conveyance of passengers and cargo?
I think that is a very unwarrantable aspersion on the members of the Advisory Committee. If the hon. Member will refer to the names of the Advisory Committee, which were circulated with the Votes a few days ago, he will see there is no foundation whatever for the statement or imputation he makes.
Increased Tonnage of British Liners
asked the right hon. Gentleman what was the tonnage and passenger accommodation of the biggest British ocean-going liner in 1905; what is the corresponding tonnage and accommodation of the biggest ship to-day; and whether the Board of Trade has from time to time increased the regulation number of boats comparatively with the increase in the number of passengers carried?
The tonnage of the largest British ocean-going liner in 1905 was 23,875 tons gross, and the number of passengers allowed to be carried under the "vessel's passenger certificate was 2,041. The corresponding figures at the present time are 45,325 tons and 2,524 passengers. The hon. Member will see that, although the tonnage has nearly doubled, the increase in the number of passengers is only 24 per cent. The minimum requirements as to boat accommodation in the largest passenger steamers were not altered during the period referred to in the question.
Nautical Surveyors
asked if the right hon. Gentleman will state what qualifications are demanded on appointment of nautical engineer and shipwright surveyors to the Board of Trade; how many nautical surveyors are employed in the Marine Department of the Board of Trade; how many inspections of the life-saving and navigational, equipments of merchant ships were made during the year 1911; and what (proportion that bears to the total number of ships of over 200 tons nett register flying the British flag?
The qualifications demanded on appointment of nautical surveyors to the Board of Trade are that they must possess a foreign-going master's or extra master's certificate of competency, and must have been in command of foreign-going steamships. An engineer surveyor must have served an apprenticeship to a firm of engineers or iron or steel shipbuilders, must have served at sea as an engineer on regular watch in charge of engines for at least five years, and must possess a first-class or extra first-class certificate of competency as a sea-going engineer. A ship surveyor must have been trained as a shipwright for not less than five years, and subsequently had practical experience in the building and repairing of ships. All candidates appointed must pass a satisfactory competitive technical examination, and are certificated by the Civil Service Commissioners. Surveyors, after appointment, undergo a course of training in all their duties, and have to pass a further technical examination before they survey and inspect vessels on, their own responsibility. There are sixteen nautical surveyors and four principal district nautical officers employed in connection with survey duties in the Marine Department of the Board of Trade. This does not include engineer or ship surveyors, who number eighty-five and thirty-four respectively. I regret that I cannot at the moment give the statistics desired by the hon. Member, but I will inquire whether it is possible to obtain them, and, if so, they shall be communicated to him.
Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that even sixteen nautical surveyors are enough to inspect 7,000 steamers with an aggregate tonnage of 17,000,000?
That question will, also be considered.
asked whether those merchant captains and officers who are candidates for nautical appointments under the Board of Trade are requested to state whether they have ever been censured or their certificates temporarily suspended at Board of Trade inquiries into shipping casualties?
Candidates for the post of nautical surveyor are asked when they are interviewed whether their certificates have ever been dealt with. They are also required in their form of application for appointment to state in writing what casualties they have met and whether their certificates have been dealt with.
In the case of any candidate for appointment as nautical surveyor, if there has been anything against his certificate, is that always a bar to his appointment?
Not at all. It depends entirely upon the nature of it.
Lord Chancellor's Rules
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether Rules have been made by the Lord Chancellor, under Section 479 of the Merchant Shipping Act, as to investigations with regard to shipping casualties, and, if so, when; and will he issue a White Paper containing these rules?
General Rules for Formal Investigation into Shipping Casualties, and Appeals and Rehearings were made by the Lord Chancellor on 22nd November, 1907. The Rules are published by the Stationery Office, and I am sending a copy to my hon. Friend.
Passenger Accommodation
asked if the right hon. Gentleman will state what proportion of the total accommodation for first and second class passengers, respectively, on the cross-Channel steamers is either below deck or under shelter?
I am afraid that I have not the information asked for in the hon. Member's question.
Does this question refer to the Irish Channel or the English Channel? [An HON. MEMBER: "Both."]
Is there no information in the Department which would enable the right hon. Gentleman to answer this question?
I do not quite understand what information the hon. Member requires.
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman will give the basis of measurement for passenger accommodation in the cross-Channel steamers; and what is the measurement of space allotted to each passenger?
The basis for determining the number of passengers allowed on cross-channel steamers is, in the case of passengers accommodated in spaces fitted for sleeping, the number of berths or sofa-berths provided subject to each person having at least 72 cubic feet of space. In the case of passengers accommodated in other spaces, or on deck, the basis for determining the number is the amount of clear superficial area available, and in this case the measurement is at the rate of one passenger for each nine square feet of such area.
Third-Class Passengers Saved
asked if the right hon. Gentleman has received from the owners of the "Titanic" any explanation of the small percentage of women and children saved amongst the third-class passengers?
This is a question for the Court of Inquiry.
Passenger Losses (Atlantic)
asked how many passengers crossed the Atlantic between the United Kingdom and the United States and Canada in the ten years ending 31st December, 1911, and the number of lives that were lost among such passengers except from natural causes; and what percentage such loss bears to the number of passengers?
The total number of passengers of all classes and all nationalities carried outward and inward on board British and foreign ships between the United Kingdom and the United States and Canada (including Newfoundland) during the ten years ending 31st December, 1911, was 6,053,382, of which the great proportion were carried in United Kingdom ships. The number of passengers, reported to the Board of Trade as having lost their lives by casualties to vessels belonging to the United Kingdom (I cannot give those on other ships) on voyage between the United Kingdom and the United States and Canada during the period named was nine.
Steamship "Olympic."
May I ask the Postmaster-General a question, of which I have given private notice—whether the owners of the White Star Line have asked the Postmaster-General to assist the prosecutions of sailors who refused to sail on the steamship "Olympic" owing to a dispute as to the inadequacy of the boats and other life-saving appliances, and the consequent engagement of unqualified men as firemen; and if such application was made, what answer has been given?
I have received a telegram requesting official support to the pending prosecutions. No reply has been sent. As at present advised, I do not see that I have any locus standi in the matter.
May I ask the President of the Board of Trade a question, of which I have given private notice, whether the owners of the White Star Line have asked the Board of Trade to assist the prosecution of sailors who refused to sail on the steamship "Olympic" owing to a dispute as to the adequacy of the boats and life-saving appliances, and the consequent engagement of unqualified men as firemen, and if such application has been made, what answer has been given by the Board of Trade, and, further, if seamen and firemen are by law compelled to serve upon ships which are insufficiently and inadequately supplied with boats or with men who are considered to be incompetent?
I have only just now received the hon. Member's question.
I posted it on Saturday.
There has been some mistake. Perhaps the hon. Member will kindly give notice for to-morrow. I would rather not answer without consideration.
Detention of "Titanic" Crew at Plymouth
asked the President of the Board of Trade who was responsible for sending the instructions from the Board of Trade to detain against their will and without a warrant the members of the crew of the "Titanic," who arrived at Plymouth on Saturday, and what offence, if any, is alleged against these men?
There is, of course, no question of any allegation of any offence against the survivors of the crew of the "Titanic," who arrived at Plymouth by the "Lapland" yesterday. Under the provisions of Section 465 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, the Receiver of Wreck has power to hold a preliminary inquiry respecting the casualty, and as such he may summon witnesses who can give evidence as to the casualty, and to examine them for the purposes of the Court and administer oaths. This course was taken to prevent any delay in getting the evidence of these witnesses for the Court of Inquiry, and with the same object, premises were found near to the place of landing for taking the depositions forthwith, and to ascertain who were willing to stay at Plymouth to make depositions there, and who desired to proceed elsewhere, and to get the names and addresses of those leaving so that arrangements could be made for taking their depositions later.
Will the men in question be compensated for being kept back?
As I said in the Debate on the Motion for the Adjournment last week, it is within the power of the Board of Trade to give sustentation allowance in such cases where the persons themselves require it, and certainly it will be done in this case.
Bills Presented
Juries Bill
"To amend the Law relating to Juries." Presented by Mr. Brady; supported by Mr. Hayden, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Ronald M'Neill, Mr. MacVeagh, Mr. Nannetti, and Mr. T. P. O'Connor; to be read a second time upon Friday, l0th May, and to be printed. [Bill 181.]
Parliamentary Elections (Alternative Vote) Bill
"To amend the Law relating to Parliamentary Elections." Presented by Mr. Crawshay-Williams; supported by Mr. Allen Baker, Mr. Harold Baker, Sir John Barran, Mr. GeorgeGreenwood, Mr. King, Sir Henry Havelock-Allen, Mr. Hills, Mr. Whyte, and Mr. Wiles; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 8th May, and to be printed. [Bill 182.]
Ways and Means
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY IN THE CHAIR.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient that the obligation to issue the Old Sinking Fund to the National Debt Commissioners should not apply to the Old Sinking Fund for the year ending the 31st day of March, 1912."— [ Mr. Lloyd George. ]
This Resolution has already been the subject of some discussion, and I think that by general arrangement, and with your concurrence, it was understood that we should have to-day a free range to discuss any class of taxation general to the Budget, or taxation generally, and that we should not necessarily be bound to strictly adhere to the subject with which the Resolution deals. I wish to raise a definite question of taxation which, I believe, is a matter of some importance. What I set out to show to the Committee is that the Government and the Valuation Department are now engaged in demanding taxes from the subjects of the Crown which have not been authorised by this House. That is a strong statement to make, but I believe I can prove it. Not only are the Government demanding taxes without the authority of this House, but I think I can also prove that they are distinctly breaking pledges which were given across the floor of this House during the original Debates on the Budget of 1909–10. The basis of my statement will, I think, be a matter of common agreement, but I hope to make my point good as I go on. The statement which I make is that the basis of taxation of land under the land taxing Clauses of the Budget was that a duty called Increment Value Duty was to be taken of one-fifth of the actual increase in the value of any land. It was only on any increase in the value of land itself that the duty was to be taken, and it was specifically stated, again and again, that no duty was to be taken either upon occasional profits or upon the value of buildings. I should like to make that perfectly clear by a quotation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will for a moment desire to differ from it, but I desire to call his words to the attention of the Committee. This was the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in introducing the Budget:—
That is a definite statement that any increase in the value of the land alone was to be taxed, and that no tax was to be levied on any other basis. As the Clauses were originally introduced, I believe that that pledge was fulfilled. It will be within the recollection of the Committee that at the end of the Comittee stage there was a complete reshuffling of these particular Clauses. As the Bill was originally introduced the value on the occasion when the tax was leviable was obtained under Clause 2, and that Clause distinctly enacted, in so many words, that the value was to be the value of the fee simple alone subject to such deductions, if any, as the Commissioners allowed in each case in respect of any part of the value proved to their satisfaction to be attributable to the value of buildings or structures. I must apologise to the Committee for dealing with a very dull and difficult subject. I am aware it cannot be made exciting or interesting, but I humbly ask the attention of the Committee. I am asking a great deal when I ask anybody, whether in the House of Commons or not, to give his attention to these very difficult and intricate points, but after all it is a serious matter in itself, and I am making a very serious accusation when I say that the Government are levying taxes without the authority of Parliament. I ask the Committee to consider what authority they gave and what is being done. I am trying to prove that the authority they gave, and the Statute as originally introduced, made it perfectly clear that what the House of Commons thought it was doing, and what the Government asked us to do, was to place a tax on the increased value of bare land alone, apart from buildings. The Committee will remember that there was a general reshuffling of the new Clauses, and the valuation Clause, which had been Clause 14, became Clause 25. We on this side of the House were suspicious, and gave utterance to our suspicion, that the effect of that might be to complicate the Act, and to remove the plain effect of the Act, namely, that on both the occasions, first when the original value was taken, and secondly, on the occasion when a sale took place, there should be a separate valuation of the site, as apart from the buildings, and that the tax should be levied on any difference between those two. That was our fear. We gave expression to that fear, and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Balfour) has telegraphed that indisposition prevents him from being here, otherwise he would have demanded the fulfilment of the pledge given to him. Instead of the deductions on the occasion being set out clearly in the Act as being the value of the buildings or other improvements the words were inserted "like deduction," and that change was questioned, and the question was asked whether its effect would not be to impose a new tax and to set up a fictitious increment which would not be an increment on the land itself, but which would be in the nature of an occasional profit which would include in some sense the value of the buildings, and that the duty might be charged upon that. The then Attorney-General, Sir W. Robson, dealt with this point, and his speech makes the matter perfectly clear. He said:— Anything more explicit than that it would be impossible to find. The first intimation which the country had of any change of policy was these instructions, which were issued to the valuers in the form of a White Paper, and which contained this remarkable Clause:— in camera.
I am rather afraid the hon. Gentleman has misconceived the opportunity which is given by the Debate to-day. We are in Committee of Ways and Means, and not Committee of Supply. It is a very wide opportunity of putting questions on the imposition or repeal of taxation, but the hon. Gentleman appears to me to be going into matters of administration of past legislation, which would be more properly matters for Committee of Supply than of Ways and Means.
May I remind you, Sir, that among the Resolutions annually submitted to the House on this occasion of Ways and Means is one that it is expedient to amend the law, and on that I think very wide latitude is allowed. By common consent, and with your approval, on this occasion we were to take a general discussion on this Resolution. Cannot we urge an Amendment of the law on this Resolution under these circumstances as we might have done on the former Resolution had it not been passed sub silentio in consequence of agreement?
I certainly intend to allow discussion as wide as on the opening day of the Budget, but I do not think on the opening day of the Budget the administration of an existing law would be within that wide limit. I think the argument for the repeal or remission of taxation is in order, but not the administration of the existing law.
I quite appreciate your point, but may I put it to you that last year Amendments were moved to last year's Budget, and this year Amendments will again be moved to this year's Budget, to amend this law, and thus tonight is our only opportunity of indicating what those Amendments will be. One peculiarity of Budget taxation is that, however little the Budget itself may contain, it is a recognised opportunity for discussion and for proposals for Amendments of all taxation, whether included in this Budget or not, to which the country is subjected, and there will be Amendments moved again on this Budget dealing with this very point. This is our only Second Reading opportunity of dealing with those Amendments generally and with the lines on which we propose to amend them. I appreciate your point as to not dealing with administration, and I will, as far as possible, avoid dealing with administration only, but this question is extremely difficult, and the whole method of levying the tax is partly one of administration. The question of what is the method of administering the tax is germane to how the tax is raised and to the burden which the public have to bear. I ask that I may be allowed to discuss the question of this tax and its bearing upon the public, and whether it is being extracted from the taxpayer on the lines which this House has approved, and whether it is being levied as passed by this House. I submit that that is a subject which it is necessary to discuss before we can proposed to amend it, because we do not know what its bearing really is until we have the answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The hon. Gentleman is quite correct. It will be in order to-propose new Clauses in Committee repealing or modifying existing taxes, and that, of course, is the opportunity for discussing these matters in detail. The hon. Gentleman is referring, I understand, to instructions which have been issued for the administration of the taxes imposed under another Act. It is against that that my protest is made. He is entitled to argue that he is disappointed that there is no. repeal or modification in the Act, as foreshadowed by the Resolution, but I think he ought to avoid what is properly germane to Committee of Supply, namely, the administration of past legislation.
May I submit that this is not past legislation, but present taxation, which is understood to be reimposed for this purpose? It is open to discussion as much as if it were reimposed. All taxation is open for discussion under the Budget.
It is open to discussion, certainly, on its merits, but the hon. Member will recollect that we have had frequent Debates on the administration of the Act, and these, I think, have taken place in Committee of Supply. All I want to protect the Committee generally against is taking, on this limited occasion in Ways and Means, something for which the opportunity is open in Committee of Supply, and therefore cutting out hon. Members from discussing the main point, the imposition, repeal or modification of taxes.
I have to speak from memory, but may I ask you, Sir, to refresh your memory as to the occasion on which the discussions to which you allude have been taken? I think all our discussions as to the cases arising under the Budget of 1909 have been taken on the Budgets of subsequent years. I know that several have been taken on these occasions and my impression, speaking on the spur of the moment, without having been able to verify it, is that the whole of them have been taken, not as you had supposed in Committee of Supply, but in Committee of Ways and Means, or on the Budget resulting from the Resolution.
I think the right hon. Gentleman will find—I confess I am speaking from recollection—that they were taken on the Bill and not in Ways and Means. We always endeavour to distinguish between Committee of Ways and Means and Committee of Supply. I do not want to prevent the hon. Member from raising the subject he has in his mind. I only wish to protect the Committee against going into details of administration. I do not think it is necessary for the hon. Gentleman's purpose.
I admit I did feel that the line of division was rather difficult, because here the administration and the imposition of the taxes are very much mixed up, and I will do all I can to keep within your ruling. I wish to show the Committee that these taxes require amendment on account of the method in which they now fall upon the taxpayer, which I believe to be contrary to the intentions of this House. I have stated to the Committee on what grounds the taxes were imposed, and I think I have made it clear that they were to fall upon the value of the land alone and not upon any other subject. The question I have now to ask, and I think it will be fully within the rules of order, is whether what I have stated does not show that these taxes require amendment, for I am able to prove that they are now being levied on grounds totally foreign to what was said when they were introduced. The point I was making when you, Mr. Chairman, interposed, was that the Referees were instructed to hear these cases in camera.
That is not so at present.
Well, the order was issued from the Treasury that these cases were to be heard in camera. The public were not admitted, and reporters were not admitted. I asked a question in this House on the subject, and it was admitted that cases were heard in camera. I asked the right hon. Gentleman myself if in the circumstances reporters would be allowed to be present, and he agreed that they should be. That was consequent upon the protest I made.
The only interruption I made was that that is not the present position. The hon. Member is not dealing with a grievance existing at the present moment. It was commonly understood that there was no desire to have these cases heard in public, but when we heard that there was a desire, we left the matter to the Referees.
We perfectly understand that there was no desire on the part of the Government, but I think that was all the more reason why the public should hear what was going on. The cases were going on in private, and it did not look well. One of the cases heard—I need not go into details—was the Richmond case, with which the House is fairly familiar. What I am about to quote shows the method in which the tax was levied in that case. I think when the statements which were made on behalf of the Commissioners are put perfectly clearly before the Committee they will see that some amendment is required in this form of taxation. In this case the subject of valuation was a house and shop. It was valued as between two dates a year or so apart. The site value was brought out at £58 on the original valuation, and on the "occasion" at £178. On the hypothesis on which the Act was introduced in order to obtain that result, it rested with the Valuation Department to show that the actual value of the land as between these two dates had altered from £58 to £178, and had they been able to show that they would have been entitled to Increment Value Duty. What happened? Mr. Howel Thomas, deputy-chief valuer, gave evidence and explained the system adopted by the Commissioners under the Finance Act.
"As to the site value being placed at £58, as at 30th April, 1909, and £178 as at September, 1910. this was due to the statutory method of valuation laid down in the Finance Act. £178 was not the value of the site; it was the statutory assessable site value, calculated in accordance with Section 2 of the Finance Act."
Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give us the date of tins?
This was an inquiry held on 31st January, 1912, before the Referee at Richmond, Yorkshire.
"Asked whether the value of the divested site on 30th April, 1909, was precisely the same as on the date of the sale, he replied that the market value on the two dates, so far as he knew, was the same."
There you have a direct admission by the Government valuer that the value of the site was identical, and that there had been no rise in the value of the land at all. That is only one quotation. I have half-a-dozen others. Counsel for the Commissioners, in summing up, said:—
"The 'assessable site value on the occasion' of £178 was not a valuation of the site, but a calculation. The value of the site was the same, but the site value on the occasion was different, and it was arrived at by a different method, as explained by Mr. Thomas."
There you have counsel for the Commissioners saying that the site value on the occasion was different, and that it was arrived at by a different method, as explained by Mr. Thomas. We had the late Attorney-General assuring the House that the method was the same, and here we have counsel for the Commissioners stating that the method was different. The House of Commons has never authorised this taxation which is being levied. By what method is this value arrived at? There is another quotation I should like to give. I have a recollection of the Chancellor of the Exchequer receiving a deputation of builders and assuring them that no profit due to their own brains, industry, and intelligence would be liable to taxation; all that he was going to tax was the bare value of the site.
indicated assent.
I am glad to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer agrees. Will the right hon. Gentleman listen to what was said in a case at Newcastle, where a builder developed an area of land by building eighty or ninety houses. He Bold one, and made a profit, and £22 was claimed by the Inland Revenue Commissioners for Increment Value Duty. In order to enforce the claim, the builder was brought before the Referee in camera. Counsel for the Commissioners said:—
"If my case is right, we are not taxing value here; there is no value in this thing beyond £625. There would have been no tax whatever if the property had fetched its value. It did not; it fetched something more than its value. M1y friend Mr. Allen put it to one of the witnesses that this was a legitimate profit of Mr. Lumsden's. I perfectly agree. If Mr. Lumsden is so fortunate as to find a Mrs. Stobie who will give more than the place is worth, it is perfectly legitimate; I do not criticise it in the least. What I do say is that the Government, under the scheme of the Act, is entitled to a share of the profit as increment; and I say that, in taxing that, we are not putting a sixpence on the value of the property; we are putting it on the increment. I hope that Mr. Lumsden will find many other Mrs. Stobies; and I hope that when he does find them he will not in the future, after the explanation which has been given in this case, object to share a little of his most well-deserved and ingeniously-won profit with the Government. I distinguish between what I have called profits, which is something outside the value of the land, and the value of the land and property."
You came down to this House and asked for taxation on land, and now you say it is hot for taxation on land at all, but on builders' profits. It seems to me that that is clear proof. I claim to have made it perfectly clear to the Committee that this tax was imposed by the House of Commons on the value of land only. I also believe I have made it perfectly clear that this tax is now being claimed, not simply on value of land, for which it was granted but on something totally different—on the profits of occasional sales. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what authority he has got for levying the taxation, and if he has no authority, does he not consider that he and his Department stand in a very awkward position in going and threatening poor people with fines and penalties if they do not pay taxes which are being levied without the authority of Parliament? I wish to ask information on another point. On what basis is this value, or what is called value, arrived at? We have had it pretty plainly stated in the Richmond case. In that case the property consisted of a house and shop, and it will be recollected by the Committee that the house and shop had been bought for £500. It had been resold for £500, and Death Duties on £500 paid for it. Two other persons had made offers for it—one £500 and the other £490. Mr. William Townend, superintendent valuer of the Northern Division of England, was asked to give evidence before the Referee as to how he valued this property, and this is the way he conducted the valuation:—
"A fair rate per square yard of shop premises was arrived at by taking a number of typical premises of a similar description. After comparison with other shops a scale was adopted giving the values per yard of floor space, and this was applied intelligently to each individual case. Working upon this principle, he had estimated the rental value of the house in question at £22 9s. 4d. per annum, the landlord doing repairs and the tenant paying the rates. He then made the necessary deductions for outgoings, and capitalised the net rental at twenty years' purchase."
He was asked in cross - examination whether he had taken into account in a certain measure his knowledge that the property had been sold for £500; he replied that that made him additionally careful to check his figures, and in his opinion the fact that the property was sold for £509 did not alter its market value of £380. That is the process of the Government. They send round a staff of expert witnesses. They assume that a property has a hypothetical value of so much per square yard, and then they don the cap of intelligence and apply this kind of square yard measure. [An HON. MEMBER: "And foot rule."] Yes, they apply this intelligence and the foot rule to some particular shop or premises. They say that is its value, and, although half-a-dozen people are willing to buy it at some other sum that does not affect the value at all. If it happens, as in this case, that the arbitrary method used by the valuers differs from the value of the property at which it can be sold in the market, the unfortunate owner has to pay a 20 per cent. fine or tax on the difference. Why were not these things explained to the House of Commons when the Act was introduced? I do not think that the Act could have been passed if that were done. I know what I think of it. The question is, what the Committee and the House of Commons think of it. I leave that matter in their hands. I do say that the taxpayers of the country have a right to ask for justice from the present House of Commons, and that they are not getting it. The Government is extracting money from them by a method which I say without fear of contradiction would, if applied by a private individual, result in his finding himself in the dock.
Second hand.
It is unfortunately true. It is only second hand because the Government have not explained their position and justified themselves, and it has to be said over and over again until we can get an answer. I am perfectly ready to withdraw my statement and acknowledge that the right hon. Gentleman has acted fairly if he can show us good grounds for his action, for the method employed of levying these taxes without the authority of the House of Commons. On the subject of minus valuations I have here the reply of the right hon. Gentleman from which I understand that the decision given in the Scottish Courts that minus valuations are illegal is going to the Court of Appeal. Therefore I will not comment upon the question itself, but I think we are entitled to say that if the decision of the House of Lords should confirm the decision which has been given by the Court of Session in Edinburgh the whole basis of this valuation is gone. I believe that there are at least 100,000 valuations already made which bring out site valuations as a minus quantity. In one case the site valuation is minus £7,000. If all those valuations are by the decision of the Courts to be placed at nil the relation to the valuations obtained for all other properties in the country is entirely destroyed. Therefore the whole basis of the valuation is gone, and I hope that its application will entirely follow. There is another point as to the method on which agricultural land is being valued. It has a bearing in what is put forward as the great ultimate object of this Act. We were left under quite a false impression as to the figures given in the Debate immediately preceding this Debate. I asked what had been the yield of the Undeveloped Land Duty and the Increment Value Duty during the past. year, and I understood the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury to say that during the past year the Increment Value Duty had yielded £30,000, and the Undeveloped Land Duty either £100,000 or £130,000.
No; the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcester-sire asked a question, and I very specifically said that these were Estimates for the coming year.
I understood the hon. Gentleman, in the opening of his reply, to give me that answer and that has been used and accepted as the figure. I looked up the OFFICIAL REPORT the day before yesterday and found that the answer given by the hon. Gentleman was that that was an estimated yield for the coming year. Therefore I put down a question to-day in order that I might have the figures, and I now have them. The total yield of Increment Value Duty up to the 31st March last was £6,251, and the total yield' of Undeveloped Land Duty was £31,293— this is the total for all the years since these taxes were imposed—or something under £38,000 in all. The cost of devaluation, as stated here, was about £686,000, and I do not know whether that includes the £134,000 for Form IV.
It does.
It is hardly conceivable that even this Government could for political purposes spend £686,000 of the taxpayers' money in order to, obtain £38,000. They have a great purpose behind it. The great purpose is to obtain a uniform valuation of all the land in the country, upon which some future rates and taxes are to be based. Where is your uniform valuation going to come from? The Government are taking the building land and built-on land on one basis, and the agricultural land of the country on an entirely different basis, and the two site values will not have the remotest relation to one another. In obtaining a site value for land which is built upon that site value represents the bare value of the land minus the whole of the improvements that have been put upon it by any previous owner or occupier. From the site value of agricultural land there are no such deductions, and it is claimed and is coming out in the valuations—it has all still to be contested in the Courts, and what it will cost in litigation Heaven only knows—that the agricultural value and the site value of the land are being brought out as practically identical. This great valuation, this Domesday Boot, which is going to enable you to get a uniform basis over the whole country, your basis means the bare prairie value of the land where that land has been built upon, and where the land is agricultural land your basis of taxation includes the whole of the improvements, the whole of the value which has been put into it by owners and occupiers for hundreds of years past. There is no other basis, and I say that on that single ground alone jour basis is absolutely worthless. It is not worth the paper on which it is written. If you are going to have a valuation on a common basis you must in the case of agriculture just as much as in the case of any other industries, say, if you are going to tax on the basis of site value. If you are going not to tax improvements made by owners of land and made by generations you must have those deductions. This Act does not provide for them. We have only £6,251 as a total result of Increment Value Duty. How was that obtained? Even the methods that the Government have adopted have stultified themselves.
They have broken the pledges given across the floor of this House. They have levied taxes without the authority of Parliament. For what purpose? To get £6,251. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised an inquiry into the working of this Act, but no definite date for this inquiry can so far be obtained. I hope that we shall hear something from him in the course of his reply. To my mind the evidence against this Act now is so strong, that we are entitled to ask the Government either to justify their action and to show on what grounds or authority they are raising these taxes, or to explain to the House on what basis this valuation really does rest, so that there may be some reasonable expectation that there will be a fair and even basis for some future valuation. If they cannot do that, if they cannot justify their present methods of raising taxes, then I say it is their bounden duty to confess that they made a mistake in enacting these taxes, that they are useless and were only introduced to justify a little bit of tacking in that famous Budget of 1909, and that it is now time for the Government to recognise their error and remove these taxes from the Statute Book. These valuations are perfectly useless. They are merely a subject of irritation and expense. They are withdrawing from productive industry a very large proportion of the brains and intelligence of the country who are obliged to set to work to fight the Government on these valuations. Here we have 1,600 gentlemen who might be employed on productive industry who are spending their time working out the figures and valuations which I have laid before the Committee. It is a waste from beginning to end. Surely it is a thoroughly miserable experiment which, as was stated by my right hon. Friend the late Leader of the Opposition, will perish amid general derision and disappear from the Statute Book. The longer it stays there the lower the credit of the right hon. Gentleman as a financier will go.
As the speeches made on this question will probably cover a wide field the hon. and gallant Gentleman will probably consider it desirable that I should immediately reply to one or two of his criticisms dealing with a very narrow part of it. My statements were challenged by the hon. Gentleman, and I have sent for the Official Report, and find that there is not the slightest doubt that I was giving a very definite answer to a question put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire as to the estimated value of the Land Taxes for the coming year. Those are the figures that I was giving.
I understand that.
As to the one or two cases which he has brought forward, where he thinks he finds a difficulty in connection with the valuation, or where he thinks, as far as I understand, that the Department charged with the valuation has been going behind the intentions of Parliament as embodied in the Finance Act of 1909, I was not clear, from the very considerable amount of notice which he devoted to the method of valuation of the Department, where he said that he had to call the attention of the Committee to a violation of the intentions of Parliament, whether he was bringing the accusation against the Act as it stands in the Statute Book, or bringing an accusation against the Inland Revenue Department for the way in which they were carrying out the Act. If he brings the accusation against the Act, of course he has a perfect right to propose an Amendment of the Act. If he is bringing the accusation against the Inland Revenue Department that they, are levying taxes without the consent of Parliament, the remedy is obvious. It is in those Courts of Law which, he says, are fortunately empowered to deal with it, and he has only got to find out what is being done by the Inland Revenue and to get the thing decided once for all.
Take this one point, the question of minus value. As it is the subject of appeal I suppose I must not deal with it at any length, it being sub judice ; but this I can say, that whatever the decision of the final Court on the matter may be, it will not really have the result which the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks in respect to the valuation. By a very simple alteration in the law the intention of the Act as regards minus valuations and the valuations already made can be recorded as plus value. As the hon. and gallant Gentleman quite well knows, the fact that the assessable site value is recorded as minus value does not mean that any site value is less than any positive value at all. The total site value never can be recorded as a minus value. That I have explained again and again.
There is no such thing as a total site value.
Full site value. Minus value is entirely due to the case where a fixed charge is laid on the land and buildings whose capital value is greater than the value of the land alone. Either by ceasing to abstract that fixed charge, both on the original value, and when occasion arises, or by dividing the fixed charge, laid on the land and buildings, between the land and the buildings, it is perfectly possible to have the same substantial amount in the valuation book and the same amount to be paid by the subject, from time to time, and altogether get rid of the minus valuation. Therefore if the Court decides that minus value is an impossible record to make, there will be no difficulty at all in connection, either with the valuations that have been made or valuations made in the future. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that he need have no fear as to the failure of the valuation. As to the statement that the valuers are taking the market value of the buildings, and taxing that market value, the hon. and gallant Gentleman is under a complete misapprehension if he thinks that is the case. In every case, as I told him last year, —and there has been no change of policy in the matter, as he seems to think—the valuers are endeavouring to carry out, and are carrying out, the legal interpretation of Clause 2.5 so far as valuation is concerned. On every occasion the valuers valued the buildings and the land before they found what was assessable for Increment Duty. The only cases that have arisen were cases where the market value of the land, "as sold by a willing seller," is not the same as the price which was given on the occasion. Under those circumstances, the windfall, which is above the market value of the buildings, has always been interpreted as a fitting subject for Increment Value Duty. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Having subtracted the full value of the buildings here and now, and also having made the other necessary deductions, what remains is the assessable value. It never has been anything else. It is in Clause 25, which was discussed in the House, and I remember making speeches upon it on that ground, and it has been interpreted by the valuers on that ground. The real difficulty which arises in the mind of the hon. and gallant Gentleman is not the distinction between the value of the building to-day and the value of the building to-morrow, but the interpretation of what the market value as sold by a "willing seller" is, and market value as by a willing seller is the interpretation which our valuers have put upon it—mocked at by the hon. and gallant Member as being something connected with the use of a foot-rule and a square space—and the value which every valuer takes in every business with which anyone is concerned.
Is the hon. Gentleman referring to Clause 25 or to Clause 2?
I am referring to Clause 25, which refers back to Clause 2. It is on that Clause, and the value in the open market when sold by a willing seller, that the work of the Inland Revenue has been developed.
What is the distinction between the cases where there is consideration given?
There may be a very considerable difference between the consideration given to a willing seller and the consideration given to an unwilling seller. You may have two cottages in the same row exactly homogeneous in every way, and of the same value, and you may have one selling for a different amount from the other. I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will agree with that.
I agree.
If that was not so, what would happen? Supposing you took the full selling price when it was not the market value, and supposing the buyer had later to pay Increment Duty, he would have to pay duty not on the real increment which had been made, but Increment Duty which ought to have been paid by the man who got more than the value of the land.
Does the hon. Gentleman claim that where there is a profit on a building, and not only on the bare land, that profit is to be taxed?
The profit on the composite subject, land and building, above the market value of the building. The hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested that we have broken our promise in regard to deducting the full market value of the building at the time the occasion takes place.
That was not my allegation. My allegation was that you gave a distinct undertaking that you would only tax the increase of the value of the land itself. I said nothing about deductions. There is no doubt that the distinct pledge of the late Attorney-General was that the whole basis of this tax was the increase in the value of the bare land, and that nothing was to be calculated for increase in the value of the buildings. Now the hon. Gentleman is taxing the increase in the composite subject.
I said from the beginning, and I say it again, that we would not tax the increase in the market value of the building. If the hon. Gentleman can show me any case in which the full increase in the market value of the building has not been deducted, then I agree he has a right of complaint against us. But he has not shown such a case.
Yes, I have. There-is the Richmond case, which I read out, in which there is a distinct admission by the Crown that the value of the land remains the same in both cases, and yet the whole increase was taxed, though it was obviously due to buildings.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman keeps on shifting from market value, which is our statement, to the price paid, which is his statement. We maintain fully the interpretation of the statement that the market value, if sold at the time in the open market by a willing seller, should be the unit, and that no charge should be made on the recovery value of the buildings or, if there be an increase, on the increase up to the full market value. That is what the Inland Revenue have been doing. In any case if the hon. Gentleman thinks we are not carrying out the passage in the Clause, he has full opportunity to appeal to the impartial Courts of whose opinions he seems to be so confident. If he can prove that the Inland Revenue have not carried out what is a fair interpretation of Clause 25, then undoubtedly redress will be made. Take another case, the question of secrecy. The hon. Gentleman seems to think that the Government have some idea of carrying out a great system of deceiving the public as to what we are doing, and as to the secrecy observed in appeals. The thing is not only absurd in itself, but would be a grotesque blunder on the part of the Government, even from the point of view of their own Act. I would point out that there are cases in which the appellant himself asks that his case should not be made public, and the request for publicity has come rather from organisations outside who want to know the result of the appeals than from the appellants themselves, who very likely desire that their cases should not be heard in public. The reason for secrecy is that a very large number of persons who appeal do not want discussion of their property made public. Is the hon. Gentleman quite sure that he will please, not the Land Union, but the appellants themselves? Directly my right hon. Friend's attention was called to the fact that any body of persons wished those cases to be made public, he immediately responded to the wish. At the same time, the Committee will agree, we should see that the appellant is protected against outside interference, and that his buildings and land are not made the subject of a publicity which he does not desire. We have given a discretion to the Referee to allow representatives of the Press and of professional organisations to attend any hearing, provided that the appellant agrees; and that is as far as we can go. The hon. and gallant Gentleman, with much humour—we have heard it many times before—referred to the discrepancy between the amount of revenue already collected from the Land Tax and the cost of the Land Valuation.
5.0 P.M.
He knows as well as I do that, from the first day on which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister explained how the valuation would be conducted in the country, the number of years that would be taken for its completion, and the amount of money which would be required to carry it into full effect, it has been laid down in all quarters of the House that it would be impossible to expect an immediate return from such a tax as the Increment Duty equal to the amount with which the valuation is charged from year to year, and especially, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Mr. John Ward) reminds, since great holes and rents have been made in that duty owing to the perpetual ad misericordiam appeals of the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his Friends. There will be no difficulty at all in the abandonment of one or two of those exemptions, which I do not think have been fully justified, and increasing the Increment Duty by a very considerable amount; certainly far more than the annual cost of the valuations. The hon. Gentleman talks about the increasing irritation of the country. The experience of our valuers is that the irritation is decreasing. The report I have from the Inland Revenue is that during the first few months after starting the valuation there was a certain amount of difficulty owing to the irritation, I suppose, created by the newspapers, and the Land Union and other organisations. That irritation is steadily decreasing, and the Inland Revenue have now practically no difficulty from that source, and, consequently, they are getting on with the valuation at a very much quicker rate than they did at the beginning. The hon. Gentleman talked about the best minds of the country being taken away to fight cases against the valuation. How many cases have there been? Less than 200 out of some 2,000,000 valuations. Which are the best minds of the country which are being taken away in order to do that? The great majority of the owners of property in this country are having their land and buildings valued in complete agreement with the valuers and the experts on the subject, with no friction and with no irritation, and having figures established to which they fully consent and agree, and against which they have no wish to make any appeal at all. I doubt if any big Statute which allowed for references to referees, and certainly not the Income Tax Act, has ever shown figures so cheerfully and completely accepted by the great majority of those who are concerned with the admission of those figures. The hon. and gallant Gentleman says that the valuation is enormously expensive in comparison with the results attained. I had the pleasure of giving to him in a Debate a few weeks ago some of the collateral results obtained by the carrying out of these valuations on the Inland Revenue. I have not got the figures here now, but I shall be very glad to furnish them to any hon. Member who may desire to see them. The valuation is paying itself again and again by the ascertainment of the value in Estate Duties which was due to the Government, but which the Government was losing before the valuation was set up. It is paying by hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Do you mean by the site values?
The same valuers who are engaged in getting the site value are also getting the total value and also in connection with the Death Duty and the Increment and Estate Duties.
They are different valuations in each case.
The result has been thousands of pounds of difference in real Estate Duty not admitted as between the valuers and the owners of the estates, but agreed to as between the valuers and the owners of the estate on the valuation which has been made.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he will deny that in the Budget statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he introduced these taxes he did not state to the House that he had then already appointed a valuation department which was then in existence, and that that is the same valuation department which is mentioned in the Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue issued last year as the valuation determined to enable the values for duties on deaths to be collected, and that that method was already in existence before these taxes were introduced and was carried on quite independently.
There was only a first tentative commencement with one or two partly in connection with Estate Duties and partly in anticipation of the Valuation Department. I am informed by the Inland Revenue that when the total valuation is completed, which I believe the Prime Minister estimated would extend over some five years and cost something like two millions of money, they, the Inland Revenue, estimate that at least a third of that cost, or more than a third, something like £900,000, may rightly be attributed to the increased work in connection with Estate Duties, licensing valuation, and other work which will be accomplished by this State Value Department, all of which is bringing revenue to the National Exchequer. What is the real truth about Increment Duty? The Act was introduced in April, 1909, and was passed into law in April, 1910. The commencement of the valuation took place in August, 1910, and the Valuation Department was not in full operation until near the end of the year, so that all practically the Valuation Department has been doing up to now is not much more than a year's work. During that time more than a fifth of the land of the Kingdom has been valued, besides the valuations done in Estate Duties and the valuations on occasions, when they took place. The Inland Revenue recognise fully and have made representations to us as to the gaps that have been made in the collection of the Increment Tax due to the very great concessions, and especially the 10 per cent, concession, given to hon. Gentlemen opposite. At the same time they are quite convinced, and this is not a political statement, noticing as they do the increase in population, and the very great changes in population, and the large developments that are taking place in connection with increased trade, and the increased prosperity round some of the great cities of England, that these will make a steadily increasing contribution to the National Exchequer of value which is in the strictest sense of the word unearned increment, and only a very small proportion of the unearned increment which will be created by this prosperity.
After a very few years time, whatever other complaints may be made against them, the complaints will not be that these taxes are only obtaining a very small amount. As well as that the valuation has also assisted in connection with undeveloped Land Duty, and there also the concessions made to hon. Gentlemen opposite were far more, I think, than they ought to have been. The full site value as well as the assessable site value will be obtained from those valuations. The full site value of the land of this country has been recommended by many high authorities, including the most important section of a Royal Commission, as being an item which may be very necessary when we deal with the readjustment of local and national expenditure, and so far from undervaluation being a valuation which would be useful, in that case the hon. and gallant Gentleman will recognise that undervaluation would be rather harmful than helpful if any such development took place. The hon. and gallant Gentleman began his speech with an appeal and concluded with a threat. He stated that the land taxes have already proved to he a hollow sham, that the valuation had proved to be impossible, and that the whole thing had become preposterous in the eyes of the world. We are to understand his policy includes repeal of the land taxes.
was understood to indicate assent.
That is agreed to. We shall be very glad to hear him elaborate that policy on the platform, and his party, and see what verdict the nation is likely to give on such a policy.
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has really answered in any way the charges made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who initiated this discussion I am not going into the general question of the policy of the land taxes, but I desire to know if the hon. Gentleman has adopted the view put forward by the counsel, as I understand, for the Land Tax Commissioners— namely, that the legitimate profits of builders might be taken into account in assessing the site value. I want to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he adopts that statement or not. If I have followed his argument correctly 1 think he does adopt it. If he does adopt it, that is wholly inconsistent with what I think has been said in this House as regards site value, and wholly inconsistent with the principles on which site value ought to be obtained. I admit the point is a technical one, but I am anxious to know if I followed the hon. Gentleman's argument. Supposing you had land worth £100, and you spent £500 on it by builders. The builder, having spent that £500 under very beneficial conditions from an industrial point of view, finds that his £500 is worth more in the buildings than the building cost. I want to know if, in ascertaining the site value for the purposes of Increment Duty, you take that industrial gain which the builder has gained quite apart from the value of the land itself? [Mr. MASTERMAN: "Yes."] The hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary says "yes." I say under those circumstances that is wholly inconsistent with the true ascertainment of the site value according to the principles of the Land Taxes themselves.
I think the hon. and learned Gentleman misunderstood my "yes." The full market value of the building created by the result of the enterprise of the builder is not a subject of increment value tax.
Then what was said in the Richmond case was certainly wrong, because what was stated there as regards the site value was that because the builder had made a legitimate profit in the building part of the transaction, not on the land part, that that must be taken into account. I admit of course that in a certain sense that is the market value of the land and building combined, but surely it is quite impossible to say that under conditions of that kind and for the purpose of ascertaining what the true site value is after the buildings have been put on the land, that you are to increase that site value because the builder has, by an industrial operation, carried out an industrial business so as to put himself in a position to obtain some special profit by it. If that is to be taken into account, then I agree with everything that has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend, who contended that that would be monstrous. According to the account of the Richmond case, not only was that done, but it was argued by the counsel who appeared on behalf of the Land Tax Commissioners and who submitted that it ought to be done. That is a simple case which I should think no one ought to doubt for a moment. Does the hon. Member really say that where in connection with land you have carried out an industrial operation which, being well carried out, has given a profit to the person engaged in it, that thereupon he is to have placed upon him some additional tax in the name of site value? I do not think that anyone anticipated that. I do not think that hon. Members opposite anticipated that. Counsel arguing on behalf of the Land Commissioners said site value is not the value of the site. That is an absurdity. Site value of course is the value of the site unless you include profit, and directly you do that you go against the whole basis of the tax, on which I am sure hon. Members opposite will admit those Land Taxes were imposed and on which alone they can be justified, because the object of the Land Tax was to exclude profit made in connection with land out of industrial operations, in order to deal with what was said to be unearned increment, and in order to isolate and deal with any additional value the land itself had apart from any industrial operations carried out on it.
I do hope if the Attorney-General speaks he will say that this industrial element ought to be excluded, whereas in the Richmond case, according to the argument of counsel, it was admittedly included. The second point I want to ask the representatitve of the Treasury about is this. He talked a good deal about market value. I agree if you apply that to the market value of the site and exclude any value given to the land by industrial operations upon it, but how does he explain on that basis the case that was given, the Richmond case, of an actual sale of £500 and the market value of £380? We are dealing there with land. How can he possibly justify that? Anyone who has had much to do with the question of land valuation knows that the true test of market value, if you can get it, is what would be obtained immediately in the market for the property in question. Yet here, as I understand, it is alleged, on behalf of these valuers, that, although they had £500 ascertained as the actual market value in respect of a transaction which immediately took place, yet on some hypothetical and, as I think, fictitious basis, they valued it at £385. That is quite wrong. I agree with the Secretary to the Treasury that it may tell in favour either of the owner or of the Government, according to the way you look at it, but I do not care about that. I say that if you are to administer an Act of this kind fairly, and in accordance with the principles laid down by this House in the Act itself, and you want the ascertained market value, it is quite impossible to disregard an actual market transaction which has immediately taken place in reference to the particular land in question. To omit that consideration is really to delete what I call the business and commercial value, in order to introduce some hypothetical and fictitious basis which may or may not operate to the detriment of one side or the other. The Secretary to the Treasury—I know he had many other matters to deal with—gave no explanation in reference to that point.
I am not going into the question of minus valuation in the sense that it is a matter under discussion, and I understand is to come before the Court of Appeal. But I think the importance of the minus valuation has been entirely misunderstood. The reason why there is an objection to the minus valuation is that it will give a fictitious increment value. You cannot escape a fictitious increment value if you begin with a minus valuation. Suppose you have a minus valuation of £5,000, and afterwards you work it out to a minus valuation of only £3,000. Would not that mean an increment value of £2,000? Is it not impossible to escape that? The real reason why these minus valuations ought not to be allowed is the obvious unfairness of such a result. We are really dealing with the question of a datum line. It seems to me that if you once allow the principle of minus value you undermine, not the particular valuation, but the whole principle on which valuations ought to be made for the purposes of the Land Taxes under the Act of 1910 One other matter with which the hon. Member did not deal was as regards the site value of agricultural land, upon which a very important question was raised by my hon. Friend. I do not think there is any land in this country in connection with which the element of buildings bears a larger proportion to what I may call the total value than is the case with agricultural land. There are a very large number of cases—hundreds of thousands of acres in my own county and district—where, if you ascertained the value of the agricultural land in the same way as you do that of undeveloped land, you would come to a minus valuation; and, putting the minus valuation out of sight, you would find there is no site value at all. That is a very important matter. You ought certainly to have the same basis as regards both agricultural and other classes of land. There is no reason whatever why, if in the case of other classes of land you eliminate the building element, you should not do the same as regards agricultural land. All the poor land of this country has had more money spent upon it in improvements than its total value at the present day. I refer to all classes of improvements, including soil improvements.
It is only by eliminating all expenditure involved in bringing the land to its present condition that you can arrive at what is called the prairie value of the land or the real value of the land in its unimproved condition. That ought to be done, and carefully done. If it is not, you can hardly avoid the result that, so far as agricultural land is concerned, not only will you get site value on a different basis, but you will get a site value that is in itself fictitious. It is a part of the case, even of those who take a very different view from myself in regard to this question, that money spent on the improvement of land, in bringing land to a higher value for agricultural purposes, should be eliminated in order to get down to the site value, or prairie value, of the land itself. That is what you want to do, and ought to do, as regards both agricultural and all other classes of land. The question of site value valuation is an extremely difficult one. Many valuers believe that you cannot arrive at it at all; that it is too difficult a problem. I have never taken the view that that form of valuation is impossible. I have only taken the view that it is difficult, and that the greatest possible care ought to be taken to avoid injustice. I cannot imagine a greater and more palpable injustice, or one less in accord with the true principles on which this Land Tax is based, than to include as site value, as has been done in the two cases referred to by my hon. Friend, not only the value of the land as such, but the industrial profit which the builder has obtained owing to the favourable conditions under which he carried out his business. The Secretary to the Treasury says "No," but it is so. Not only is it so in what was said by counsel, but it is so in what the hon. Member himself said. He said that he took the composite value. Composite value means the increment not only as regards the land, but as regards the building.
I did not say composite value. I said the price achieved for the composite subject, which might be I a different thing altogether from the composite value.
I am not dealing with metaphysics. The composite subject is the land and buildings combined. If you start from not only the enhanced value of the land, but also from the enhanced value of the composite subject—that is, the land and buildings—you undoubtedly bring into operation what is really the industrial element in the building trade—that is, the spending of money for building purposes under conditions which bring the builder a profit, not so far as the land is concerned, but as a man carrying on a business—the most important business of building. I protest against a builder being selected to be fined, under the form of a Land Tax, on what is just as much industrial profit to him as the industrial profit of cotton spinning or any other great industry in the country. On the points I have mentioned I at any rate have not appreciated the answer which has been given. I agree thoroughly that it has been shown that the intentions of this House have been put on one side, and that under the form of taxing site values you are really taxing one of the industries of the country.
I do not wish to follow the hon. Member opposite in the question he has been discussing, but to refer to the Resolution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which is in the following terms:— case made out we should seriously consider our position before such a very grave alteration of the law is sanctioned. To take a realised surplus of £6,500,000, and carry it to the Exchequer balances, is certainly an operation which has some effect on the money market. In the natural order of things it would have gone to the reduction of debt, and its effect on the short, loans market is one that ought to be considered. Further, the carrying forward of this enormous surplus must be a temptation to many of a spendthrift tendency to apply to the Treasury for Grants for various purposes. If this money had automatically gone to the reduction of debt we should have been so much the better off; we should have strengthened our national credit by that amount. If it proved to be necessary that the money should be used for naval purposes, there would be no absolute necessity for cash payment for those naval exigencies; and any further money that might be necessary in the current year would, no doubt, be forthcoming in the usual way. Each year ought to stand on its own basis, and the, realised surplus ought surely to have gone in the natural order of things to the reduction of debt.
Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer, state definitely what he proposes to do with this £6,500,000? Further, will he state frankly that, if the House agrees to the proposal, and the money is required, he will come to the House for its sanction for the purposes for which the money is required? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has shown by the way in which he. treated the proposal for an Estimates Committee that he is anxious to carry the House with him in regard to its control of the national finances, I am sure that I am not making too great a demand upon the right hon. Gentleman when I ask him to be very frank in taking this Committee into his confidence; we, are always very anxious for a frank and free discussion of our finances, and we ask for his confidence when he asks us to give such wide powers as suggested in, this Resolution. I should just like to say, a word or two on the supreme importance of economy—a rather dull subject perhaps —the maintenance of our national credit and of the Sinking Fund. I do not say at this stage how I am going to vote in regard to this Resolution. As I said at the beginning of my remarks, if the right hon. Gentleman can make out a good case, is frank in taking the House into his confidence, and can convince this House that there is a really and urgent necessity for us to give him the power he asks, then certainly any fair and broad-minded man will take that into consideration. Without that knowledge and that information in our possession we are all, I think, entitled, at this stage certainly, to protest against the apparent lightness in treating this subject, and of showing, if I may put put it so, not a proper appreciation of the supreme importance of maintaining our Sinking Fund, of economy, or of the maintenance of the national credit.
We have had a great deal of discussion over the last two or three years as to the price of Consols. A great many theories have been advanced as to what governs the price of Consols. If I may venture to give a definition I would say that while, of course, there are a great many causes, as everyone knows who has had experience of finance or business, yet what governs the price of Consols is the proportion which the loanable capital of the world bears to the fixed or funded capital of the world That is to say, if there is a great mass of loanable capital, not only in this country but abroad, the rate of interest tends to fall. Consols then tend to rise. If money can be lent out at a higher rate of interest than you will get in Consols, the tendency is for securities to be liquidated, and for the capital to be used for lending out purposes, for trade, and so on. When the proportion of loanable capital accumulates and increases in the money markets of the world, as against the amendment desired for fixed capital or funded debt, then the tendency is for these securities to rise. There are a great many contributory causes, but I think the House will agree in the main. I hope I do not weary hon. Members by going into these details, but it is necessary to bring out my argument, and to draw attention to the very great importance of the step we are now taking as to what in the main governs the price of Consols. We know that no single Government can control the proportion which loanable capital bears either to fixed capital or funded debt, but certainly Governments can have a very considerable influence upon the matter.
Our British Budget will very soon approach £200,000,000, taking into account the Post Office and the telephones. That is a huge sum for any body of men or any Chancellor of the Exchequer to have to handle. I think distinguished Members who formerly occupied that position, such as Mr. Gladstone, would have held up their hands in horror at having to grapple and arrange a Budget of this enormous size, and we must congratulate the present Chancellor of the Exchequer on the apparent lightness and cheeriness; with which he faces his burden, but it is a great burden, and one of very great responsibility, and I submit that any body of men who have the handling of such a huge sum of money can have some effect, some influence, indirect influence it may be, upon the money market and upon national credit. My point is this: Consols have fallen because of the fact that the proportion of loanable capital has been very much reduced compared with the fixed capital and the funded debt. That is owing to trade activity, owing to a very great increase in the funded debts of the world through wars and so forth during the last ten years. Governments cannot alter the past. Having regard, however, to the position, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer realises that position—
There are the Trustee Securities.
The right hon. Gentleman reminds me of the increase in Trustee Securities. That, it is quite true, is one of the contributory causes. I quite agree. But, with all respect to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I think that that effect is very much exaggerated. The main governing factor, I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree, is the proportion of your loanable capital. Bankers in this House will confirm me in this. If they find capital accumulating, and have a difficulty in lending it out for trade or other purposes, then they must invest it in interest-bearing securities. It does not matter to them about the Trustee Act or any other Act. After ail it is not really the private investor who in the main invests in Consols. The great buyers are the bankers and the insurance companies, and the reason that they purchase Consols is because they are not able to get such high rate of interest for their capital when they are lending it out. When, therefore, they have a difficulty in investment, when capital increases with them, and in the money markets of the world, they must invest in interest-bearing securities. I am not reflecting upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or upon the Government, or the policy of the Government. I am only asking this Government, or any Government, to face the facts. Surely these are economic facts! They do not reflect upon the policy of the Government, but surely they should be taken into consideration by the Government! I hope I am as keen a social reformer as any Member of this House, but I think you ought to cut your coat according to your cloth, and regulate your social reform with the conditions prevailing. When we find, as to-day, that capital is not plentiful, that owing to the activities of trade, owing to great schemes of social reform, owing to the great expenditure necessary for armaments—I am not saying whether these latter are necessary or unnecessary, but they cost money— the loanable capital is absorbed, and the supply naturally reduced, we should face these facts. If we are going in for schemes of social reform we ought to have regard to the amount necessary for our defence, to the amount to be spent upon the Navy. What I have stated ought to appeal to any Committee of practical men and to any House.
We have heard a great deal in recent years with regard to labour unrest. Much has been said about the cause of that labour unrest. The Government have been asked to hold an inquiry and to allot a day for the discussion of the matter. Many theories have been advanced in regard to this matter. May I be allowed just to state that this very question of national finances has something to do with labour unrest. Hon. Members may ask me where is the connection between the two? Labour unrest has assuredly been brought about by an increase in the cost of living. While wages it is true have increased during the last ten years from 100 to 102, the cost of living has increased from 100 to 106. That means a decrease in the real wage. Working men to-day, although having fairly regular employment and good wages, find their conditions have not improved in proportion because of the increase in the cost of living. This increased cost of living has been brought about by a great variety of causes, including the abnormal production of gold. But I just wish to show the connection, as I said, between national finance and the increased cost of living. If Governments, pursuing a certain line of policy, do not recognise the necessity for husbanding their resources, for reducing their debt and reducing their taxation in times of prosperity, then I submit that they are accentuating this increased cost. Let me give an illustration.
If this Government, for example, were to take this 6½ millions and use it for the redemption of debt that would at once set free 6½ millions available throughout the country. It might be used through the various banks for various purposes, and if by pursuing another policy further we were able to come to an agreement with other countries to reduce the necessity for enormous armaments, we might be able perhaps to save a further ten millions. All that capital would become available in the markets of the world. If that capital, becoming available, were to be used to develop new wheatfields in various parts of the world it would increase the supply of wheat and food, and actually would reduce the cost of living, so that the Government, as I have said, having a Budget to handle of something like £200,000,000, can undoubtedly have a great effect in either accentuating or lessening this increased cost of living which I believe in the main has produced a great deal of the present unrest. Anyhow, I submit to this House that before we agree to this very important and grave proposal to suspend the Sinking Fund, we are entitled to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a full and adequate explanation. I have not the slightest doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will accede to my request. I know he is always frank and free in giving any explanations or in answering any questions put to him. We look forward to him making a very clear and urgent case for asking us to agree to so very important a proposal as mentioned in the Resolution.
The hon. Gentleman, the Member for Coventry, who has just spoken, made a good many remarks with which I entirely agree. I wonder that he is not sitting on this side of the House in view of several of the observations which fell from him such as, for instance, cutting our coat according to our cloth. I wonder if he has taken the opportunity to represent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer anything of the sort in the past, or whether this is his first essay in the direction of national economy? As to the position of national credit, consider a recent issue of India 3½ per cent. Stock at 92½; 87 per cent, of it was left on the underwriters' hands, yet the rate of interest was a good one in the circumstances. I think it worked out at £3 12s. or £3 14s. per cent. It shows, at any rate, that the public, with loose money in this country, will not put it into Government securities. They may invest it, here, there and everywhere abroad, but in this country capital is scarce, or at any rate it is scarce when the Government seek it. That brings me logically to the question of the application of the Old Sinking Fund. There I feel the Chancellor of the Exchequer is suspect, because we who were in this House three years ago, when the Budget was brought forward, cannot forget the line which the Chancellor of the Exchequer took up then with regard to the Old Sinking Fund. He proposed to do away with it altogether. Year by year since, to some extent, the right hon. Gentleman is suspect, and he wishes to-day to do practically what he would have done three years ago. Then the Radical party had a majority of 350 and were dependent upon nobody, but even then he was suspect, but he could not achieve his desire, and the Old Sinking Fund had at that date to remain upon the old lines, and the savings of the year had to go to the Old Sinking Fund and to the reduction of national debt. He was suspect three years ago, when he brought in his Budget, so that to-day he lies under the imputation of suspicion, and especially having regard to the way in which he dealt with the Old Sinking Fund last year.
In that year £1,500,000 went to the Development Fund, £1,500,000 to sanatoria, and £250,000 to the East African Protectorate. All these are good objects in themselves, but the fact remains that £3,250,000 was diverted from the source to which it should have gone according to the Act of Parliament of 1875, and was applied to extraneous objects. How does the right hon. Gentleman propose to deal with the £6,000,000 this year which should, in the ordinary course, be applied to the Old Sinking Fund? He said, as I understand it, that he might be disappointed in his Estimates for the present year owing to the labour troubles and that income might be less than he had estimated owing to the far-reaching effects of the coal strike. So far so good, but will anyone get up now and say that so much money as £6,000,000 would be wanted for that emergency? His second argument was that owing to labour troubles a considerable amount of money that would have been spent on the Navy was not spent, as the work had to be suspended. To a certain extent that was so, but not running into millions or anything like it. The right hon. Gentleman's third point, which was a much more important and vital one, was that Germany might be making a move during the present financial year in the direction of an increase of naval armaments, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer acting with the First Lord of the Admiralty, ought to have in his possession large sums of money to meet any emergency that might arise in that way. There is a great deal to be said for that, and if I were sure that the money was to be applied in that way I should withdraw my opposition from this unusual proposal, and it is a most unusual proposal, such as has never been put before the House before. The proposal is made for the first time in the House of Commons that the whole of the Old Sinking Fund, £6,000,000, and over, should be help up and put info Exchequer balances and used if a shipbuilding emergency should arise.
May I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer this question? Will he give the House of Commons a pledge that this £6,000,000 shall be applied only for the purposes of such an emergency should it arise, and for no other purposes whatever? If he will, my humble opposition as a back-bench Member will be withdrawn. But if he will not give such a pledge, we are entitled to press it by every means in our power, because the Financial Secretary for the Treasury left the matter in uncertainty and in doubt. He said that if the money was not wanted—I think I am giving the sense of his words—for naval purposes, the House of Commons would be able to deal with it in any way it pleased. I do not think that it is fair or right to treat the Old Sinking Fund in that manner because, of course, the Government have a majority at its disposal. Supposing, and I do not like to say unpleasant things, that as the year is drawing to its close the Government were in an unsatisfactory position with regard to its political status in the country, supposing that its popularity was on the wane, and that the £6,000,000 was not in fact wanted for the extra purposes of shipbuilding, and that they have it in their hands, they might be able to give plums to the electors. Surely, that would not be fair, and those who uphold the principle of the Sinking Fund are entitled at any rate to raise every possible objection to the adoption of such a course. Such a course is in the direction of political corruption. I am not suggesting the Chancellor of the Exchequer would do anything of the kind, but I ask that a clear pledge be given to us to-day that if this £6,000,000 is wanted for the Navy it shall be applied to no other purposes.
What is the position of the Sinking Funds? The position of the Old Sinking Fund and of the New, have to be dealt with, and it is a most important matter to see, owing to the way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has grown accustomed to deal with both, that the position should be placed clearly before the House of Commons. I do not think any Chancellor of the Exchequer ever before has made in one and the same year, in piping times of peace, a raid upon the Old and the New Sinking Fund. He has raided both. The New Sinking Fund stood in 1875 at £28,000,000. Now it is reduced to £24,500,000. I know it went lower on a former occasion, but in the times before the war the national indebtedness was nearly £100,000,000 less than it is to-day, and Consols were at 110, but are now at 78. There was a good deal to be said for the reduction of the New Sinking Fund to £23,500,000 in 1899, but to-day it has gone down from £28,000,000 to £24,500,000, and you are raiding the Old Sinking Fund very seriously also. Of course, that reacts upon Consols, because the New and the Old Sinking Funds are the reservoirs and the only reservoirs by which you can reduce our national indebtedness which we call Consols. Otherwise it would go on for ever. The Government buys up Consols, and therefore the more you divert the New Sinking Fund and the Old to other purposes the less you are able to pay back your indebtedness. I know the Radical party have always been very much opposed to borrowing, but do they not realise that when you reduce the Sinking Funds you are in exactly the same position as you would be when borrowing? Mr. Gladstone pointed that out more than once. He said raiding the Sinking Fund or reducing the Sinking Fund is borrowing in the strictest form of the word, because if you take away money that would otherwise go to the reduction of debt you might as well be borrowing. That is the reason why in times of war the Sinking Fund is suspended, because there is very little good in paying off little bits of national debt by means of the Sinking Funds, while borrowing hundreds of millions for the purposes of war. But do not let the Radical economists lay the flattering unction to their souls that they are not borrowing when they are raiding the New Sinking Fund with the one hand and the Old Sinking Fund with the other, because if the House of Commons diverts the whole of the £6,000,000 this year from the Old Sinking Fund it is borrowing money. I have always been in favour of a Naval loan, and so is the party opposite if it agrees to this system. It is borrowing, and nothing but borrowing.
6.0 P.M.
I have strayed a little from my main line of argument, and may I now try and explain how this raiding of both the Sinking Funds reacts upon Consols. Consols, after all, are the bed rock of finance; they are the bell-wether of the money market. The money market follows Consols, and everything else follows thereupon. For instance, take Irish Land Purchase. How do you expect to be able to issue £100,000,000 for further Irish Land Purchase if you depreciate Consols by your policy, and you are depreciating Consols, not only by the way in which you are treating the Sinking Funds, but also by your general policy. I have always had mixed views about the reason for the depreciation of Consols. There are many reasons. I am not going to blame the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the whole of the depreciation, but I must put a large portion of the blame upon his shoulders. One of the reasons is the extension of the^ list of Trustee Securities in 1900. The Unionist party were in office for five or six years after that, and then securities had recovered. Seven years have passed since then, and I think the Act has been very largely discounted. I know that whenever the Chancellor of the Exchequer tries to meet the point we make as to why Consols have depreciated, he always throws back at us the Trustee Act of 1900. It is true that is part of the reason, but it is not the whole reason. I can prove this to the Committee best by quoting the price of Consols. In 1900 Consols stood at 103, and that was after the Trustee Act had passed. In 1901 Consols were at 97; in 1902 they were 97; in 1903, when Consols were reduced from 2½ to 2¼ per cent., they fell to 93; in 1904, 1905 and 1906 they stood at 91; in 1907 they were 87; 1908, 88; 1909, 86, and in 1910 they were 83; in 1911, I am informed, they were under 77, and to-day they are about 78. It is no good for anybody in this House, or out of it, saying that that great deflection in the price of Consols can possibly be attributed solely to the Trustee Act.
Were the figures the hon. Member quoted for the earlier years the highest prices or the lowest?
I have got both.
Which were they?
They were the highest.
Was the hon. Member comparing the highest for last year with the lowest?
Certainly not. Anybody who knows me must know that I would not do such a thing.
The hon. Member said they ran down to 76 last year.
The last year I read out was for 1910, when the highest point reached was 83. I did not give the figures for 1911 or 1912 from my list, but they were given to me by my hon. Friend the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury).
Did the hon. Member give the highest price for last year from his list?
I have not got any figures in my list for last year, and I have given the figures for 1910.
My hon. Friend asked me what the price was last year, and I told him they had gone down to 76. The price, however, to-day is 78, and that is very nearly the highest they have touched this year.
That is quite right.
If the hon. Member said he is quite right I must protest against his statement.
When I say it is quite right I do not mean to resent the right hon. Gentleman's interruption.
I am sure the hon. Member did not intend to say anything unfair, but I understood him to say that he quoted the figures for the earlier years, when the Conservative Government was in power, and afterwards he gave the figures when the Liberal Government came into power up to the year 1910. I understood that for those years he gave the highest figure, and he said that last year they ran down to 76. I understood that for last year he gave the lowest figure, and compared it with the highest of the previous years. I only mention this because in the report of his speech the bearing of his remarks may be misunderstood.
The list I have given is up to the year 1910, and the figures for the succeeding years were given to me by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London. There has been a tremendous drop in Consols for various reasons. Partly it is due to the Trustee Act and partly to the great backwash of the war. The drop has also partly been due to high taxation. In the old days we were content to have low interest on good securities, but now, when the Death Duties are so high and the Income Tax stands where it is now, people cannot be content with the interest on gilt-edged securities, and so they have to go further afield and invest their money abroad. Therefore the policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is driving investments out of Consols and sending them abroad. These investments have been driven abroad first of all by the necessity for investors getting a higher rate of interest, safely if they can, but at any rate they must have it because they cannot live at the lower rate of interest. No doubt the policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer has shaken securities. There is no getting away from it. Ask any dealer in money and he will tell you that the policy of this Government has shaken securities and the first thing you have shaken is Consols. It is the same with all gilt-edged securities; people are afraid of your policy because they never know what you are going to do next. Money is a shy bird; I do not care in whose pocket it is. Capital is a shy bird, and that bird is going to place itself in a position of safety if it can. You have frightened capital, and that is why it is scarce in this country. All these points of view are germane to the Debate to-day, and that is why I have brought them to the notice of the House, in order that hon. Members may see what a serious matter it is to deal in this way with your Old Sinking Fund and the New Sinking Fund, which are the mainstay of the Consol market.
The hon. Member opposite said bankers invested largely in Consols. To a certain extent, that is true; they must invest in Consols, but they are not investing m them so much as they used to do. Fortunes have been lost in Consols. In the old days you could go to bed without the fear of Consols dropping, but in recent years more money has been lost in Consols than in any other way. The bankers have not so much money invested in Consols as in the past, and the Government invest more in Consols than anybody else. How much of the Post Office Savings Bank money is invested in Consols? I need not go through the list. The Government is the great holder of Consols to-day and the bankers have been frightened out. Bankers have to hold Consols to a certain extent because they lend money, and when people come for their money, bankers have to be able to provide it at any moment. Consols are not as liquid as they were. In the old days you had no difficulty whatever in selling a million of them, but go and try and sell one hundred thousand of them to-day and see what will happen. You have largely smashed the Consol market by your high taxation and destruction of all confidence. By the way in which you have dealt with your Sinking Fund you have largely affected every gilt-edged security in this country. This is a serious matter upon which every financier has a right to feel deeply. The Member for Coventry made a great many illuminating remarks, but one of his statements struck me with amazement. He apologised for mentioning the word "economy," and said that although it was a very dull subject it was a matter of supreme importance. Economy used to be of supreme importance with the Radical party; in fact it was their battle cry in 1905. What did the Chancellor of the Exchequer say in 1904, when nothing was talked about so much by the Radical party as economy; in fact it was nothing but economy, economy, economy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in those days was championing the Income Tax payer, and he said:—
Will the hon. Member tell me to what part of the increased expenditure during my term of office he objects?
The right hon. Gentleman always imagines he puts the Opposition into a hole when he asks that question. Allow me to say that the policy before the country is the Government's policy. The present Government came in on the cry of reform and economy, and, although you came in on economy, you have raised national taxation by over £30,000,000. That is your policy. This has not been the policy of the Opposition for the last six years, because you have been in office during that time, and, therefore, I am entitled to make these quotations against the Chancellor of the Exchequer. You came in on two cries in January, 1906: On "Economy" and on "Chinese Labour." I have found a bouquet of quotations on the Budget of 1904 from the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, the present First Lord of the Admiralty, and the present Home Secretary. What did the First Lord of the Admiralty say? He said:—
"The present Chancellor of the Exchequer had not shown the same zeal for economy as his predecessor, and they had not detected in his speeches the same advocacy of retrenchment as they found in the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach)."
What did the Home Secretary, the twin brother of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer in those days, say? He said:
"There was no doubt that were another Government elected on principles to which it would adhere, that Government would immediately be able to effect a series of economies which would enable it to reduce the taxation—"
and then he got pathetic—
"which now pressed so heavily on the public. There was no need whatever why the present great expenditure should be permanent; and if this Government, which had obviously lost the confidence of the nation at large, should at length awaken to its responsibilities and consent to appeal to the country which it had deluded, he was satisfied that no Government would be returned except one pledged to economy."
I think we are perfectly entitled to say, "you came in on false pretences." You came in on the pretence, false as it turns out, of economy, and you have run up the national Bill by millions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer no doubt would say this expenditure has been pressed upon him by the whole House. I call in aid another observation of the hon. Gentleman opposite, that you ought to
"cut your coat according to your cloth."
You have gone too fast. You forget the nation lives on. We are here to-day and gone tomorrow, but the nation lives on. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Radical party want to press into the narrow span of their term of office expenditure which ought to be spread over a much greater number of years in the real interests of the nation. We have got to spend money on the Navy. We all know it is live or die there, and I should not grudge a penny on that. We have got to do that or lose our place in the world. I am a social reformer, but you have taken the whole of it at one bite. You have done too much at once. You ought to have given yourselves much more time. You ought to have spread your butter over a larger number of years. You have given the butter all at once; you have done it too quickly. The result, of course, is that you have depressed capital. I do hot think the national finance to-day is equal to the tremendous demands made upon it. There are some things we have got to do. We have got to provide for national defence or lose our place in the world. I am not against old age pensions: not at all; but we ought to have counted the cost before taking it in hand. And so with national insurance. You are so anxious to crowd into the space of one Parliament every social reform the mind of man can conceive that you have shaken the financial stability of the country; and, if that goes, we all go. Yes, all of us, £400 a year and all, and all your social reforms too. I must apologise to the House for having detained it for so long, but it is not often I trouble it. I never do so unless I think I know something about the subject. Perhaps I do not know as much on this subject as I think I do, but I would ask the right hon. Gentleman in all sincerity to tell us plainly and candidly whether, if this money is not wanted for extraordinary naval expenditure, it will take its proper place in the Old Sinking Fund, and be applied to that purpose, and to that purpose only?
I am quite sure the hon. Member for Clapham had no need to conclude his interesting remarks with an apology. We recognise that in the realm of finance he is an authority, but in many respects his remarks are open to criticism. Fie speaks of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer as being suspect in the matter of his dealings with the Old Sinking Fund, and he laid great stress on that point. I should like to ask him and the House what Chancellor of the Exchequer was not suspect? What has been the history of the Old Sinking Fund in the hands of recent Chancellors of the Exchequer? I have not come down to the House prepared with any figures on the subject, but I think I can speak with fair accuracy of recent years. Take the years beginning with the accession to office of the Conservative party in 1896.
1895.
I am speaking of their first, the 1898 Budget. In that year Sir Michael Hicks-Beach was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he had inherited a gorgeous surplus from Sir William Harcourt. His party during a few months of Administration managed to dissipate some of the surplus by extremely large Supplementary Estimates and Supplementary Expenditure, but still they had a very large sum, approaching the sum with which we have to deal this year. Did it go to the Old Sinking Fund, or did any of it go to the Old Sinking Fund? It all went to naval works. The next year Sir Michael Hicks-Beach was still Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he again had a surplus, though not quite so large. Did any of that surplus go to the Old Sinking Fund? Not a penny of it. It went to military works. The next year he had a large surplus, and that was all given to Civil Service expenditure, and none of it went to the Sinking Fund. The next year he had practically no surplus. Then came the war, and there was a series of years in which there were large deficiencies, and of course the Sinking Fund was suspended. When the war ended the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) was Chancellor of the Exchequer. I admit he had not much chance of dealing with the Old Sinking Fund.
I was not Chancellor of the Exchequer when the war ended.
No, but soon afterwards. In his first Budget he had to deal with a deficiency, and in his second Budget he had to deal with a small surplus which was carried to the credit of the balances and did not go technically, to the Old Sinking Fund. So what has been the history of all recent Chancellors of the Exchequer. The only one who has really helped bravely the Old Sinking Fund is the present Prime Minister. He had a surplus his first year, and it went to the Old Sinking Fund. He had a surplus the second year, and it went to the Old Sinking Fund. He had a surplus the third year, and even the Prime Minister then gave way and took £600,000 of it for, I think, public buildings. Then came the reign of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, faced with a deficiency and increasing expenditure. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer, out of all the confusion during the period for which he has been responsible, has managed, however, to add a fair contribution to the Old Sinking Fund. Last year, he gave, at any rate, a part of the surplus. Was it not £2,000,000.
I think £3,250,000 was diverted.
Yes, and £3,250,000, if that is the half, was applied. So at any rate that was a larger contribution to the Old Sinking Fund than had been made by any Chancellor of the Exchequer during the whole period of the office of the Conservative party. When the hon. Member picks out the Chancellor of the Exchequer as being suspect, he must really forget the whole of the late history of the Old Sinking Fund. There is, in my opinion, a great deal of superstition in the professions of regard for the Old Sinking Fund. The Old Sinking Fund was a broken reed on which to rely for any real saving at any time. The great instrument for the payment of debt has been the New Sinking Fund for which Sir Stafford Northcote deserves the credit. This year, although the realised surplus may be diverted, we are paying off debt at a very reasonable rate. This year we shall pay about £7,000,000 by the operation of the New Sinking Fund, and we are paying off debt by Votes, because we are paying both principal and interest under the Naval and Military "Work Act at a substantial rate. Speaking from memory it is about £2,000,000.
Is the hon. Member aware that Sir Stafford Northcote fixed the New Sinking Fund at £28,000,000, and that at the present time it is only £24,500,000.
I am perfectly aware of that, and I am also aware that out of that £24,500,000 we are paying more in principal in reduction of debt than Sir Stafford Northcote paid out of the larger sum at that time.
I think that is partly due to the falling in of annuities and matters of that character, quite independent of the action of the Government.
That may be so. The New Sinking Fund, as established, did not provide for as much reduction of debt as the Reduction Sinking Fund does in the year now opening. The New Sinking Fund is our main source for the payment of debt, and, if it is administered as it is administered at present in reducing debt at the present rate, I think that is perfectly satisfactory and I will say sufficient. The hon. Member charged the Government, as others have charged the Government, with being the cause of depreciation in the price of Consols.
Partly responsible.
I admit the hon. Member tried to be fair, and I think, according to hi3 view, he was fair. He was perfectly willing to admit in mitigation the other influences which at present affect the price of Consols. He did not forget to allude to the enlargement, of the area for investment for trustees. He did not forget to allude to the war. He did forget to allude to the one thing which, I think, is of real importance, and which is by far the principal factor that has to do with the present situation. The present situation has been produced by the enormous expansion of the activities of the world. That has been produced partly by the great increase in the production of gold, the great increase in the means of communication, and the immense exploitation of the earth's surface. The demand for capital from all over the world has increased, and people are prepared to give more for capital. There are two classes of capitalists, the active capitalist who owns ships, lands, and mines, and does the work of the world, and the passive capitalist who lends money on security. The passive capitalist has had a rather harder time lately, although really I do not think his position is so very bad, because you can never satisfy the passive gold owning capitalist, the man who has gold and who wishes to keep it in terms of gold in gilt-edged securities. I remember when the top price was 112. Was the gold bug satisfied then? Not at all. He complained that he could not get 2 per cent, for his money. Well, now he can get 4 per cent. Is he pleased? No; he complains of the price of his stock. I think the financial people who analyse this subject ought to ask themselves this preliminary question. Is the low price of Consols a good thing or a bad thing? It may be a bad thing for those who bought high and have to sell low, but it is like many other things, if it is a bad thing for the seller it is a good thing for the buyer. That may be applied to capital all round. Capital all round has to be paid for now because capital is in demand. Why is capital in demand? Because the whole world is prospering. So far from looking at the low price of Consols as the result of the inefficient and improvident action of the Government, I look at that phenomenon as the product of very mixed influences, many of which are beneficent influences. I would rather that the price of Consols should be where it is, as the result of the activities of the world, than I would have Consols at 112, with the stagnation of industry which that high price means. On the whole, I am prepared to support this Resolution, because I consider that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is doing well and prudently, and that his action is sufficient in reducing debt and maintaining the credit of the country.
There is one point which hon. Members on the opposite side of the House have quite omitted to refer to in connection with the depreciation of Consols, and that is that at one time Consols were the premier security in the world. It is true there has been a depreciation in other countries, but nothing like the depreciation from which we have suffered. We have seen the French Government securities depreciate, but it has been a trifling depreciation, and we have seen the picture of French securities standing at a higher price than our English securities. All the depreciation in our securities is not really due to the enlargement of the range of Trustee investments. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made the most of that at the meeting he addressed in the City. He attributed the depreciation I think entirely to that cause.
No, I did not.
That was my recollection. If anyone asks any man in the City what is the cause of the depreciation of every class of investment he tells you it is entirely political, entirely the result of distrust in the present Government. He has the gravest suspicion of the financial pilotage of the Government. He says they are not pilots at all; they are longshoremen togged up as pilots. I venture to think that if anyone watches the constant and growing depreciation which has taken place since this Govern- ment has been in office, he must come to the conclusion that the opinion of the man in the City is really the right one. But apart from the question of Consols there is another subject which one can raise this evening and which is, I think, of considerable importance. No reference has been made to the Income Tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer simply proposed, as I understood, in his Budget speech, that the tax should be continued during the present year at the same rate and on the same basis that we had last year. Surely in times of peace there is little justification for an Income Tax at its present high rate. We are all familiar with the statement which the present Prime Minister made in his Budget speech of 1906, in which he said he did not hesitate—
Then, again, with regard to mines and shaft sinking and minerals which are being worked out, where no depreciation allowance is made, and in the case of plant and machinery in which a very partial allowance is made, these are subjects I think of great importance. I know it is very difficult for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with these points in bad years, hut surely he might have done something in a good year like the present. He might at least have given some consideration to them. Not unimportant is the question of the foreign trader and the foreign manufacturer who sells his goods in the English market. Do you tax him for Income Tax? If he trades in England openly, then you call upon him for an assessment; but if it is done through a traveller or an ordinary agency you get no Income Tax out of him; you only get a return for taxes upon the amount of commission which his agent earns. He may be doing business up to £50,000 or £60,000 a year in England, and he will only have to pay Income Tax upon £400 or £500 a year commission to his agent. The idea of Income Tax was that all profits which were earned in the country should contribute towards the National Income, all profits without any distinction, but the foreign manufacturer is very successful in escaping almost entirely. Really it would have been an easy matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he had time, after dealing with his schemes of social reform, to make some calculation and to see if all these foreign traders who are doing business here really contribute as they should do to the National Income. Take the glass trade. You know that the imports of foreign glass are something like £4,000,000 a year. You know what we manufacture in this country; you have a census of production showing what glass is manufactured here. It would be an easy matter for the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the resources at his command to find out what the manufacturers of English glass contribute to the National Income in Income Tax, and to see that the importers of foreign glass should pro rata contribute a similar amount. There would he nothing unfair or unreasonable in that. When our people are taxed, as they are oppressively, by the Income Tax, it is very unfair that a foreigner or his agent should be as they are now practically allowed to escape scot free. It is very unfair competition, and there are very few people, unless they are actively engaged in business, who realise what a hard and oppressive tax the Income Tax is.
There is one further point, that is the method by which the tax is collected, and the rigorous examination of all accounts. The amount that was obtained by a tax of 1d. in the pound fifteen or twenty years ago is, I believe, obtained by a tax of ½d. in the pound to-day. There is a very rigorous examination of accounts. All big firms have a special officer on their staff, who is skilled in Income Tax law, whose chief object is to evade and beat down the assessments made in regard to his firm. Questions are raised, balance sheets are called for, and all sorts of minute questions as to what is loss of capital and what is loss of income are raised. If the surveyor of taxes can make out that a loss the firm has sustained is, by any course of reasoning, loss of capital, the firm gets no allowance whatever for it. I cannot help thinking that certainly as regards the big trading concerns and public companies the proper and most economical way of taxing them is to tax them on the dividends they pay. It all comes to the revenue in the course of time. These big trading corporations build up great reserves for the rainy day, and if you do not get it in one year you get it in the next. I suggest that you should tax them on the dividends they declare instead of on the average profits which they earn, as under the present system. It is a point which has been urged from time to time, and some day the justness of it will be realised. In times like the present, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer has such a handsome margin and there are prospects of such good trade, I think he has the opportunity of doing it if he will only use it. I urge on the Chancellor of the Exchequer the extreme importance of giving a little more time and a little more consideration to these matters than he does to the constant and eternal social reforms which seem to take up so much of the time of this House.
I observe that the Debate is now getting on to other questions of detail in the taxation of this country, and I think it would be desirable for me to get up at this stage in order to reply on the general question of the Sinking Fund.
And the Land Taxes?
I thought my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury had dealt very effectively with the question of Land Taxes, and I propose now to confine myself to: the general questions raised dealing with the Sinking Fund, the depreciation of securities, and kindred topics. I understand that the suggestion which has come from the Opposition is this: that the depreciation in gilt-edged securities is very largely, if not entirely, attributable to the policy of the Government, to its taxation, to its general policy, and, more notably, to its policy of social reform. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down went very much further than the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. G. Faber). The hon. Member for Clapham did make certain reservations. He did say it was not entirely due to the Government, but the hon. Member who has just sat down Was perfectly clear in his statement, that every man in the city attributed the depreciation in Consols entirely to the policy of His Majesty's Government. I should like him to name a single man of any responsibility in the city who will repeat the statement that the depreciation in Consols is entirely due to the policy of His Majesty's Government.
I think that if the right hon. Gentleman will refer to the financial Press, which reflects the opinions of many people in the city, he will see that the views I have expressed are substantiated.
If the hon. Member can do no better than quote the financial Press, I do not care very much. But I am perfectly prepared to take the financial Press. If he can give me a reputable city paper which is prepared to stake its reputation upon endorsing the statement of the hon. Gentleman that the whole of the depreciation in gilt-edged securities, and notably in Consols, is entirely due to the policy of His Majesty's Government, I shall be very, very surprised. As a matter of fact, I thought it was common ground that there were other causes. I know there are hon. Members who share the views of the hon. Member that the Government is responsible. There are hon. Members on this side of the Committee, of whom I am one, who think that the action of Governments has a great deal to do with the depreciation of Consols. The South African war undoubtedly depreciated Consols. The Irish Land Bill had a very considerable effect upon Consols. If the hon. Gentleman is acquainted with the city, then he knows that there is nothing which tends more to depreciate a market than to be constantly going there on the borrow. If you go there for three millions and afterwards for five millions, the result is that it must have a very damaging effect upon your market. Anyone who knows anything of the City must know, and I am sure the hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury), who is not anxious to absolve me from any blame which is my due, would admit that Irish Land Stock has had its effect in depreciating Government securities. Of course it had. Any man who knows anything about the City, whatever his bias may be, is bound to admit that the Government was responsible for that. Let us take the third cause. That was the broadening of the basis of trustee investments so as to include Colonial securities. Does the hon. Member seriously mean to tell the Committee that that has had no effect in depreciating Consols in the market? If he does, he shows a most lamentable ignorance.
The right hon. Gentleman must not misinterpret me. I did not say it had no effect.
If it is entirely due to the Government then the late Government has also got its share. We are at any rate getting a revised version of the hon. Member's views on Finance—a revised and very much improved version. There is no doubt at all about the facts. I am coming to the question of what has depreciated the value of Consols later on; but at any rate it is interesting to know that in five minutes I have been able to convert the hon. Member to saner views on finance. I now come to the Debate on the general position. An attack has been made upon the Government, and notably upon the present occupant of the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the fact that I have not done my duty in the way of reduction of debt. If that criticism comes at all, I think it comes with a very bad grace from the other side of the Committee, and I think my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. David Mason) had; a right to make that criticism. But when the hon. Member for Clapham, who very frankly said that although he had no share in the transactions between 1896 and 1905, because he did not sit as a Member of this House—
I came in in 1900.
Then the hon. Member is a party to the crime. I thought he was only an accessory after the fact, but in fact he is a criminal. I am going to give him some of the facts. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City said Sir Stafford Northcote made elaborate provision for the payment of debt, and fixed the Sinking Fund for the payment of debt at £28,500,000. What did Sir Stafford Northcote do during the whole of the six years of his tenure of office I have now the honour to hold? During the whole of those six years he cleared off £15,298,000 of debt. That was in six years. I have had the pleasure of clearing off £29,000,000 during the three or four years I have held this office. [HON MEMBERS: "What about taxation?"] I am talking about reduction of debt. The charge against me is that Sir Stafford Northcote was a model, an exemplar, who gave £28,000,000, while I am only giving £24,500,000, yet with my £24,500,000 I have been able to pay off twice as much debt in three or four years as Sir Stafford Northcote in his six. So I am twice as good a Chancellor of the Exchequer. [HON. MEMBERS: "Four times."] Yes, four times as good.
What was Sir Stafford Northcote's Income Tax?
Really, the hon. Member must know that I can only deal with one point at a time. I am dealing with the challenge that is made to me that I am not making provision for the reduction of debt. I will come to the question of taxation later on. I am not going to shirk that. As a matter of fact, I have a note upon it, and it is one of the things upon which I have to say a few words. I am now going to deal with the payment of debt. Let me take the record of the various Governments. Between 1860 and 1867, when Mr. Gladstone was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he paid on an average £3,211,000 a year. The total paid under that Government was £22,479,000 during its six years of office.
The amount paid, or the amount paid off?
7.0 p.m.
The amount paid off. We have paid off, during the six years we have been in office, £64,000,000. Mr. Disraeli paid in 1867 and 1868 an average of £1,628,000 a year—in all, £3,367,000. From 1869 to 1874, which were years of very great prosperity and great surpluses, the total reduction of debt was £27,686,000—an average of £5,500,000 a year. That is the highest on record, the great Liberal Government of 1868. Sir Stafford Northcote paid off £15,298,000—an average of £2,500,000 a year. For the year he was going out he made a further provision of £4,500,000. It was paid by a Liberal Government, but he made the provision.
I did not allude to the right hon. Gentleman. My point was that he must have regard to his liabilities.
Really, does the hon. Member not know that the liabilities to-day are heavier than they were then? As a matter of fact the National Debt is less than it was in those days. It has been reduced very considerably. It was higher still in 1880—I am speaking from memory, but that is my recollection. The total aggregate gross liabilities in 1880 were £770,000,000. Now they are £724,000,000. The 1880 Parliament paid off £22,000,000 of debt. Then there was a War Loan in 1885. I do not know the amount of it. If hon. Gentlemen go through the whole list they will find there is not a time on record when any Government has paid anything approaching the amount which the present Government has paid. If you come to the date of administration of hon. Gentlemen opposite—I am not referring to the war) I agree that it is unfair to take that into account—as a matter of fact they increased the Debt, but I am just taking the periods of peace. When you go to war you must take policy into account. Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, as he then was, undoubtedly had very exalted views and made a very brave fight for them. His idea was that you ought to pay off debt in times of peace. He had three or four years of peace, and he paid £16,893,000—that is, £5,631,000 a year. Then came the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) and Mr. Ritchie. During their three years they paid off £9,359,000. That is a net reduction of £3,120,000 a year. Then come the Prime Minister and myself, and we paid on an average very nearly £11,000,000 a year. So that really I think hon. Members opposite are the very last who ought to complain about the provision made for the repayment of debt.
I now come to the Old Sinking Fund. Hon. Gentlemen opposite when they were in power had a Sinking Fund. What did they do with it? Their surpluses during the whole ten years of office aggregated something like £12,000,000. I am not taking the war into account. Out of the £ 12,000,000 how much did they pay in reduction of debt? Three millions. The remaining £9,000,000 went for the purpose of Naval loans, Military works, and other purposes. They gave 25 or 26 per cent, of the Old Sinking Fund to the reduction of debt, and applied 75 per cent, to other purposes. It is not settled yet by any means whether this money is going to the Old Sinking Fund or not. That is a matter which Parliament will have to adjudicate upon. Therefore I am going to deal with the surpluses up to the present year. The total surpluses during the last six years amount to £20,000,000. Out of that, £16,000,000 have gone to the Old Sinking Fund and only £4,000,000 have been diverted to other purposes—public buildings, sanatoria, and Colonial development. So that under Unionist administration only 25 per cent, goes to the reduction of debt and 75 per cent, to other purposes, and under Liberal administration 80 per cent, goes to the reduction of debt and 20 per cent, to other purposes. I do not want to use strong words; if I did, I should use the word effrontery. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have the coolness to get up, with that record, and taunt the Government because we are not reducing debt at the rate at which they were reducing it in their time. They say the fall in securities is due to the fact that the market is appreciating the difference between the rate at which you paid debt and the rate at which we are paying it. They think the markets will go up the less debt you pay. That is about the only example you can draw from their records. We have paid an enormous sum of money in the reduction of debt, and I challenge anyone to point to any Government which has approached the present Government in the amount of debt which has been paid off during the last three years, when I had very heavy liabilities. There has been no three years, except the Prime Minister's tenure of office, by any Chancellor of the Exchequer where so much debt has been paid as during the last three years' tenure of office by myself, though I have been attacked by every hon. Gentleman opposite as if I had paid no debt at all. The provision we are making for the payment of debt in the present year, leaving all emergencies out of account, is a very considerable one, and unless you have to borrow for some unforeseen purpose, we shall be able to reduce the debt by a larger amount this year than was ever done in the time of the last Administration or any other previous Administration.
I come to the question why Consols are depreciating. It has clearly nothing to do with the amount which is set aside for the payment of debt, because the Prime Minister and I have allocated huge sums of money for that purpose. Therefore, it is clear that the depreciation is due to causes of a totally different character. The fall in securities began while the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) and his predecessors were in office. I am not blaming them. I am not blaming the Unionist Administration altogether. It is entirely a question of policy. They may have been right or they may have been wrong. I am not discussing that now. It is too late to discuss whether it was desirable to widen the sphere of trustee investments. It is done, and it is quite irrevocable. But let the House of Commons realise what it means. After all the price of a security depends upon the number of buyers who go into the market to compete for it. That is the case of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I want them to bear in mind that it is our case too. When there was practically very little besides Consols. When trustees were practically forced to go into the market to buy, of course the price went up; but if you increase the number of investments which trustees might put their money into, it is exactly as if you issued Consols at a higher rate of interest. Hon. Gentlemen opposite talk as if this were entirely due to the present Government, and as if it were due to our policy of Free Trade and social reform, and say there is no confidence in the country any longer; but let them go to the market with a foreign security at 2½ per cent. Do they really think they will get anything like the price they will get for Consols? German 3 per cent. Stock to-day is between 79 and 80. If we were paying 3 per cent, ours would be 94. It is idle, therefore, to talk about lack of confidence in British securities. It is purely a question of interest. There is very largely a fashion in interest. At one time people look about for something very safe at a low rate of interest. At other times there is a great craze for higher rates of interest, and now no doubt people are getting very good interest upon good security because of the enormous demand for money all the world over. The hon. Member (Mr. Russell Rea) put it very well when he said you have a greater commercial development in the world all round now than you probably ever had in its history. There is the opening out of new countries and the construction of new railways and docks in all parts of the world. Hon. Gentlemen opposite talk as if it were a bad thing for British trade to invest money abroad. The Germans do not think so. On the contrary, they compete for investments abroad. They are increasing their investments abroad whenever they can get an opportunity. Why? Because they know it is the best method of securing the trade of the particular district where they advance money. Some time ago there was competition between two or three countries for investments in Constantinople. France lost it, and the Germans got it. We were not competing with France for reasons it is not for me to enter into. But does anyone imagine it was a bad thing for Germany, and a good thing for us that we did not get it and that the Germans got it. Anybody knows that the securing of investments under those conditions is a very sure way of securing trade in those districts of the world. You have only to look at our trade during the last few years in order to realise that, and to look at the trade of all the years that our investments abroad were high. Our foreign trade increased enormously in consequence of that. It stands to reason. We have been dependent very largely upon international trade. We have the best international trade in the world, and when we invest money in Canada, Australia, the Argentine Republic, and elsewhere, for the purpose of developing these countries, our trade with these countries increases. We have only got to look at the trade returns to find what the effect of British investments has been. It is not merely that we depend for our food supplies on the opening up of these countries, but if hon. Members will take the trouble to look at the years when there was no investment of British capital for opening up new countries, they will find the inevitable results. In opening up new countries the population of those countries increases, and there is a greater absorption year by year of the wheat, corn, and other food supplies of those countries by Germany and France, and by their own population. On the other hand there is no opening up of new wheat fields because there is no fresh capital for development, and the consequence is that the price of food goes up. We have suffered in the last few years in the increased cost of living almost entirely because new countries had not been opened up from 1899 to 1905–6 to the extent they had been before that—
indicated dissent.
The right hon. Gentleman rather smiles at that. Does he really doubt it for a moment? I can give him a few facts. Does he know that during that period railway extension, I will not say practically did not go on, but it went down considerably in all those new countries in the years I have mentioned—1899, 1900, 1901, 1902, and 1903? During all those years you had a decrease in the number of new railways opened in those new countries. I should not have thought it necesary to argue what the effect has been. If you do not open up railway communication in these new countries, you necessarily restrict—
Since the right hon. Gentleman calls attention to this, may I say that all I meant was that there has been greater development when prices have been higher.
What I want to find out is the reason why prices went up. It was because you had no fresh investments. When you were investing money in the Japanese war, or spending it on the war in which this country was engaged, we had no spare capital for investment abroad. We required all our capital for our own purposes in this country. We have always been great investors in the opening up of new countries. We opened up to a large extent the United States, Canada, the Argentine, and India. That was all done out of British capital, and the moment British capital ceases to flow into these countries for development that development is arrested. That is what happened in the years of the South African war. Our money was absorbed for other purposes, and the result was that you had no development. Now you have great development in these countries, and the consequence is that you have a great development in our foreign trade, and I am sure you will get a decrease in the cost of the commodities for the necessaries of life. All that is very important when you come to consider the question of investments abroad. Investment abroad is the ambition of Germany. She is increasing her investments abroad enormously. Whenever Germany gets the chance for investments of money abroad for the purpose of development, she never fails to secure it. She would do more if she had more money. If she had as much spare capital as we have in this country, she would increase her investments abroad enormously.
The hon. Gentleman said something about French Rentes. He must know that that is not very speculative. There you have one condition which is very well worth considering in this country. I think the whole question is worth inquiring into whether the French system should not be extended to this country—whether Government securities should not be held by small investors in small sums. Undoubtedly that has a good deal to do with the appreciating value of French Rentes.
It could be done here.
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it could be done, though there are difficulties. In France investors can hold them in, I think, very small sums. One great difficulty which would undoubtedly have to be considered here is the Income Tax. There are a good many people getting 2 per cent, and 2½ per cent, in their banks, and if they could get 2½ per cent, from the Government for sums of £10, £20, or £30 they would be very glad to get it. But before you can do that, you will have to consider what the effect would be on the banks, and on the Post Office to a certain extent. In France they have succeeded in popularising their Government securities in a way which no Government up to the present has attempted here. Therefore, it is no use quoting French securities so far as—
This has been going on for years in France, and therefore it does not affect the argument.
It certainly does, for the more you spread your securities over small sums, the less the price fluctuates. When you are dependent upon people who pay huge sums for a particular security, you will be much more liable to have fluctuations than if you have a system under which the money is obtained in sums of £10, £20, or £30. In that case it has a much more stable foundation, just as a railway company whose revenue is based on the third-class traffic is in a much securer position than if it is dependent on the first-class traffic. The same argument holds good in any business. You are better to depend on the smaller customers. When securities begin to fluctuate, they naturally fluctuate less in a country which has got a very large number of small investors than in a country which has large investors. That is the point.
What about taxation? Taxation undoubtedly has been going up steadily for the last twenty or thirty years, and no Government thinks it will be able to arrest it. No Government is entirely responsible. All Governments, of course, are partly responsible, but it does not matter what Government you had put in power in the last twenty or thirty years, or however determined Chancellors of the Exchequer and their colleagues might be to arrest the growth of expenditure. They could not have done it. The demand for the growth of expenditure comes from the people themselves, and from circumstances over which no Government has any control. Expenditure has grown from the cost of armaments, education, and social reform. I ask the hon. Gentleman who has been criticising me in respect of increased expenditure, for which he thought I was responsible, to name a single item which he challenged, and he declined to answer. Expenditure has been increased during the time I have occupied the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer by about £25,000,000. I have not the exact figures by me at the present moment.
It is £30,000,000.
I am prepared to take that figure from the hon. Gentleman. I ask him or anybody else to point out a single item in that expenditure which he would have reduced. Let him point out one. The naval expenditure, which represents half of it, he approves of. Well, that is half of it gone at a single blow. He accepts responsibility for that. How about other items? Old age pensions. Would he get rid of that? Is he prepared to say that the Government ought not to have incurred it. Was he a candidate in 1895? Will any hon. Gentleman who was a candidate in 1895, and who then promised old age pensions, get up and say that in 1909, fourteen years after that promise was made, we ought not have redeemed the pledge? He said, "You ought to have spread your butter." It was spread so thinly by the hon. Gentleman's Friends that nobody could see it. It was a poor quality of margarine. The butter was never there until 1909. The butter was promised by the hon. Gentleman's Friends, but we have provided it. We have spread it on the bread of the poor and aged. But does the hon. Gentleman say his theory is that we ought to have done it more slowly—that we ought to have taken more time. Well, fourteen years is a very long time for a man of seventy. I therefore take from the silence of the hon. Gentleman that, on the whole, he agrees that a pledge given in 1895 could, with decency, be carried out in 1909. How many of his creditors would he keep waiting for fourteen years? The statutory limitation works at ten years, and I do not think it is unreasonable. I have come to three-quarters of the remaining half, and the hon. Gentleman says that, on the whole, he would rather be silent about that.
In 1905 did you not come in on a pledge to reduce expenditure?
Does the hon. Gentleman think that relevant to the question I asked? If he will answer my question which I put to him three times I shall be very happy to answer his, but he prefers not and I think he is quite right. No man is bound to incriminate his party after all. The hon. Gentleman is exercising a wise discretion, not on his own behalf, but he does not like to give his Friends away. It is a most amiable quality among the very many amiable qualities which he does possess by common consent of this House. Therefore I do not think I will press it any further. But there you have got three-quarters of the expenditure unchallenged. I now come to the rest. There was a heavy expenditure in developing roads and helping local authorities to meet the extra cost which fell upon them in consequence of motor traffic. Does the hon. Gentleman object to that? Then again I take it that he really agrees. We have got £400,000 given to agriculture, and I am perfectly certain that the hon. Gentleman, so far from saying that we are spending too much on agriculture, will say that we are spending too little. That is the whole expenditure until this year, when we have got to pay £3,000,000 for unemployment and for sick insurance. Will the hon. Gentleman say that we have given too much from the State? Somebody said earlier in the course of the proceedings that we ought all to be in the dock, and when I go through each count of the indictment I cannot even get them to stand by it. The hon. Gentleman and his Friends say, "You are spending too much money. You have increased expenditure." I say, would you mind telling me where I can knock off a single million? And they cannot tell me. On the contrary, there is not one of those items that I was not pressed to increase. I got no support during the Insurance. Bill in keeping down expenditure, except from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. A. Chamberlain), and he carefully said that he was not speaking for his party.
Wherever it was a question of resisting increased demands for expenditure, I was invariably pressed from the other side of the House, and the only support I got was from the right hon. Gentleman, who said at the start that, as far as he was concerned, he would never take any part in pressing the Government to spend more, and, as the right hon. Gentleman always stands by his word, he stood by it there. But he will also admit that that was not the action taken by his party throughout the whole of these proceedings. That is the whole of the expenditure, and at every point we were pressed to increase it. What is the good of saying that we are spending so much money depreciating Consols when they themselves were responsible for pressing us to increase expenditure? First of all, we are criticised because we do not pay debts. We have paid more debts in our six years of office than any previous Administration. We are criticised because we are not using the Sinking Fund for the purpose of reducing debt. We prove that while our predecessors only gave 25 per cent, of the Old Sinking Fund to reduce debt, we have given 80 per cent, of it. I am told we depreciated Consols because we have increased expenditure. I ask the hon. Gentlemen opposite to point out a single item of increased expenditure during the last three or four years which they have not done their very best to get us to increase still further? They are absolutely dumb, and I say they have no right to attack the Government in the abstract unless they are prepared to give some proof in the concrete.
I never admired the skill and vivacity of the right hon. Gentleman more than when he has got a bad case and knows it. When he finds himself on thin ice, he spreads himself at once over the largest amount of surface, in the hope that in that way he may escape from going through. Even that does not exhaust his resources. He is very fond of setting up an exaggerated statement of the case brought against him, and if he can disprove what was not alleged, that is quite sufficient for his followers, who then believe that he has really disproved the case brought forward by the Opposition. I desire to invite the Chancellor, in the course of the evening, to come back to one or two definite points, to leave vague generalities, and give some specific answers. He pleaded on this occasion, though we have heard it before, with regard to the effect of the Government policy upon Consols. I should have thought that the request of my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham would have been met by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. He desired my hon. Friend to challenge particular items in expenditure. The Chancellor on this particular ground implies that my hon. Friend said, "I do not dispute the merits of this or that taken separately, but I say you are spending money more rapidly than the country can afford, and among your admirable purposes you ought to have selected only the most important, and to such an extent as the country could afford at the present time." That was not my hon. Friend's charge. The Chancellor of the Exchequer knew it.
My hon. Friend's charge was what the Chancellor of the Exchequer left alone, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues went to the country, not saying that we were spending money wrongly—they said that as well—but saying that we were spending too much money and that they would spend less; and that from the moment they got in they have continued to spend more and more and continued to increase expenditure at a rate which hitherto had been unknown in this country. That is the charge which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to meet, and which he very wisely left unnoticed while he entertained the House with his fancies on other questions. Then about the provision for the reduction of debt, was the Chancellor of the Exchequer's survey really relevant? He went back to the time when Sir Stafford Northcote set up the New Sinking Fund. He said, "I and my predecessor, the present Prime Minister, have been paying off more debt year by year than Sir Stafford Northcote and those who followed him." Does he really think that that is an answer? There is not a word of consideration for the different circumstances of the case, there is not a word of consideration for the greater amount of interest that Sir Stafford Northcote had to find, not a word of consideration for the relative prices of securities and the relative advantage of buying now, and not a word as to the relative capacity of the Government to borrow then or now if any great emergency arose. Those are relevant matters which found no place in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's reply. The fact of the matter is, that all those matters, ought to be weighed when you are judging of the sufficiency of the provision which the Government now make, and when you are testing the virtue of the Government which the Chancellor of the Exchequer was properly concerned to-defend. Then the sacrifice which the Government make is really the true test of the amount of merit which they deserve. On this point I will quote from a colleague of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the present President of the Board of Trade, who has devoted a great deal of attention to finance:— place and the absolute uncertainty that exists as to whether there will not be a further fall. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the great number of small holders in France had a great effect on French Rentes. I often wish we had a great number of small holders here, but the recent history of Consols is no inducement to small holders to come in. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he gave advice to poor people, as many of us have to do in the case of domestic servants, who have put their savings in the Post Office Savings Bank within the last ten or twenty years, would know, on their retiring from service, how tragic is the lot of small people owing to the fall and continued uncertainty prevailing in the Consol market. The first defence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is that the fall of Consols was due to Acts passed by the Unionist Government, the effect of which is peculiar to this country. His defence is that the present Government has really nothing to do with this, because it is to be explained by the alteration of those Acts, and that those Acts affect no country but our own. His second defence is that there is really nothing that needs explanation, because all the depression has happened equally to the securities of other leading countries.
I did not say that it was entirely due to depression in these securities. On the contrary, I mentioned the Irish Land Acts, and undoubtedly the South African war had a very considerable effect.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he takes the South African war, will have to explain why it is that the recovery of British Consols from the effects of a great war has been less rapid than either the recovery of the Japanese or of the Russian securities after their war. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is putting quite a good mark to the credit of the British when he says that we are now, in 1911-12, still suffering from the war which was concluded in 1902. The right hon. Gentleman made a comparison with German securities. He always thinks it quite satisfactory to this country if he can show that however much our credit has fallen it is still better than the credit of any other nation. There have been moments recently when he has been only just able to show it, if he showed it at all. I am not quite certain that it has been so at every moment. Let us take the German securities to which he has called attention again. When the right hon. Gentleman assumed his present office Consols were at 87½, they are now about 78—between 78 and 79. I do not give the fraction. I give the figures roughly as 87 when he assumed office, and 78 now. They are convenient figures, because you have only to reverse the 87 to find out what is now the amount. What, has happened to the German securities, during the same time? It is true that they stand lower—they were 80¾ then, and they are 80 now. Those comparisons which the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes with such a light heart in round and general statements, without committing himself to figures really would not explain what has happened. The right hon. Gentleman has only to go into the city, or to ask for any competent city opinion in order to ascertain the facts, not that the whole drop in Consols is due to the action of the Government, not that the whole fall is to be accounted for by their policy, the taxation, that they have imposed, the expenditure or their speeches, but all those things are adversely affecting our market, and as long as they are continued in the same way they will prevent a recovery of our market. That is the charge against the Government, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done nothing to meet that charge except with the vague statement which he has just made.
I come to the point in reference to the Sinking Fund which is of much more specific and critical interest at the moment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed in his Budget speech and in this Resolution to intercept the £6,000,000 of realised surplus from last year, and to prevent its being applied in the ordinary course to the reduction of the Debt. I want the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he will be good enough, to tell us specifically for what purpose, and subject to what conditions, he holds that £6,000,000. I had to follow the right hon. Gentleman immediately he made his Budget speech. Some dispute has arisen as to whether I correctly interpreted his intentions or not, and some people think that the answer given by the Secretary to the Treasury later proved that I was mistaken. I want to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer binds himself that any part of this £6,000,000, which is not required to meet either extraordinary demands for the Navy arising in the present year or to fill an extraordinary deficit in the revenue which would cause that revenue to be insufficient for the ordinary demands of the present year—whether any sum not required for either of those two purposes, is to go back to the Sinking Fund? Some people so understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement. The Secretary to the Treasury was thought to have given a promise of that kind, but all that the Secretary to the Treasury said was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not deal with this money without coming to the House of Commons. That of course is an obvious truth. If the revenue falls short of the Estimates, so as to be insufficient to meet the ordinary expenses of the year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer can simply draw upon his balances without further resort to the House at all.
That is not very certain.
I want to make clear what the position is. It is .also true that, if any Supplementary Estimates are brought in the course of the .year for any purpose in excess of the present Estimates of expenditure, and the revenue of the year has not enlarged so as to meet it, then the Supplementary Estimates would be paid for out of the £6,000,000. The Chancellor of the Ex-crequer will not dispute my statement of fact. Therefore the House will see that really their control of the £6,000,000 is decided; it requires no special Bill. A vote in Committee of Supply or a Clause in the Appropriation Act would enable this £6,000,000 of money to be spent on any purpose whatever. Is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer's intention? If so, I maintain all my criticism as to the application of this £6,000,000. If he tells me that he will not use that money for any purpose except extraordinary demands arising on the part of the Navy, or an extraordinary deficit owing to the failure of the revenue through the effects of the strike, or to the breaking out of a new strike, then I say that puts his proposal on a different footing. What I want from him is a clear statement whether that is Iris intention or not, and, if it be his intention, then a clear statement that the Bill, when we get it, shall provide that any part of this realised surplus of £6,000,000 which is not required by the end of the year for one of those two purposes, shall automatically be paid over to the National Debt Commissioners, to be used by them in the ordinary normal way for the reduction of the Debt. I hope I have made my point clear.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not use this money except for the extraordinary demands of the Navy without coming to this House for authority?
Yes, either in the shape of Supplementary Estimates, in the ordinary course, or by a Clause in the Appropriation Bill.
You do not allow him to use the money without coming here?
8.0 p.m.
I do not allow him at all; that is not the question. I only mention it because the House knows how easily Supplementary Estimates can be brought in, and how they could draw on the £6,000,000 if there were no money to be found elsewhere. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks he is going to hold this money for those purposes, or any other to which he may recommend the House to apply the money, either during this year or a subsequent year, then I say that is a fatal financial proceeding. What does it mean? It means that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to accumulate big sums in his hands not required for immediate financial necessities in order that he may frame a pleasing Budget when about to face the electors again, that he is to hold over big sums which ought to go to the payment of debt, and not to grease electoral machinery. That is a most dangerous proceeding, which strikes at our whole financial system, which strikes at all constitutional principles, which guide our financial proceedings, and which leads to the greatest and grossest political immorality. I hope, at any rate, we shall have the Chancellor's intentions made quite clear before the end of the evening. I have now to turn from this subject to quite a different one—the subject with which this discussion opened this afternoon, namely, what is going on in regard to the valuations under the Act. I thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to say something on that matter. The questions put by my hon. and gallant Friend, and which I ventured to address to him, were not met by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. When the Budget of 1909 was under discussion my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London raised a question as to the effect of a particular Amendment. He said the effect of that Amendment was that you would make your valuation on the original site value on a different principle from that on which you make your own valuation for site value; and therefore on occasions where there have been no real change in the value of the property and no change in the value of the site, duty will be charged, because your method of arriving at what ought to be the same thing was different. It was on that the then Attorney General gave the assurance that that was not the effect of his Amendment. He said, not only was that not the effect of it, but that the Amendment was directly intended to prevent it; that that might have happened without his Amendment, but could not have happened with it. I do not want to read the quotation a second time, as it has already been read by my hon. and gallant Friend. What do we find. We find that that is happening every day and according to the representations of the Inland Revenue the effect of the Amendment has been what my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London feared it would be, and what the Attorney-General persuaded the House to acquiesce in the Amendment by declaring it would not occur. What are these cases; the cases where a builder makes an occasional profit by a good speculation, cases where somebody pays more for a house and land, the composite subject, than the property is alleged by the valuers to be worth. Those are the cases which the Government said they would not tax, and that it was not their object to tax at all. What was the object of that Budget as declared by the Government? Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Secretary to the Treasury deny that they stated that the object of the Increment Tax was to tax the increase due to the growth of the community, and that the subject of the tax should be the value added to a man's property without exercise or expense of his own, but by the growth of the community. That is not what you are doing. That is not the claim which is now put forward in this case. What was claimed by the counsel for the Treasury? I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman intends to challenge the action of the counsel for the Treasury, or to say that they do not approve of it. Here is the case stated by the counsel. "The value of the site was the same, but the site value was different." There has been no change in the value of the site; there has been no increment due to the growth of the community, but the site value is different and therefore the person is to be taxed. Are the Government going to defend that? If they are, they are now defending something which they repudiated when they passed the Budget. If they are not going to defend it then it becomes their bounden duty in this Budget which is now to be introduced to bring in an amending Clause to make it clear that their Act was never intended to say, and shall not say what their counsel claims it does say. I cannot help hearing what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been saying and he may not have meant me to hear it, but I heard him saying that he had not the slightest idea of what the counsel for the Treasury meant. It is the statement of every valuer the Treasury calls; every valuer one after another makes the same statment that there is no increase in the real value, in the market value, but that there is a taxable increase. The second point to which I want an answer from the Government is, do they mean to get the tax out of a person on the occasion of a sale of property or transfer—I mean the Increment Tax—when in fact the value of the site has not increased? That is a plain question, and I think we are entitled to a plain answer. We certainly did not get it from the Financial Secretary, and I ask for it from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
There are two or three questions which the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his speech has carefully avoided, and which I am very anxious to have answered. He has asked us, and challenged us, what particular form of expenditure which he has incurred do we object to? I tried on a night two months ago to point out to him what we object to is not the specific individual items. No doubt we had reason to criticise the old age pensions so far as they were non-contributory. Some of us took a very strong line on that point. Others of us quite approved of large provision being made for the Navy, and we did not criticise on that score at all. Others of us have distinctly criticised, and do criticise, the wholesale experiment which is being made with regard to insurance, and think it would have been much wiser to have made a more moderate experiment which would be less costly. Again, others of us have criticised the number of officials that, rightly or wrongly, the present Government has chosen to appoint. But the actual point we have always tried to get the Chancellor of the Exchequer home to is, why does he incur all this expenditure at once? That is the point that was not met in his speech, and I would like to press him for an answer. It is simply the policy of a spendthrift; you might, for instance, have a large number of hospitals, all with excellent objects, and to which you would like to subscribe, but with your income you cannot do so and subscribe to all. That is exactly the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; he has no right to incur those enormous liabilities, which, in the face of things, the income of the country does not easily stand. Then he quotes to us in speeches, and in his speech to-night, with a flourish of trumpets, as to the amount of the National Debt he has actually paid off; but, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, the circumstances from the time when Sir Stafford Northcote was Chancellor of the Exchequer to those of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer have considerably altered. The rate of interest was then different, and numerous other circumstances which were different were pointed out. But what the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not mention when he makes that splendid boast is what are the prospective commitments which he has incurred during his term of office, I am always anxious to hear him mention that in the same breath as he mentions the other, but he never does. He does not tell us how much old age pension liabilities are a permanent item in future. On the present figures old age pensions now cost £12,000,000 per year. If you capitalise that, calculating at 3 per cent., you will find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has added £400,000,000 to the National Debt. If you take the Insurance Act—
Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to object to those £12,000,000?
I object to their being charged all at once with all those other amounts of expenditure also; I object myself, and I always objected, to old age pensions being non contributory.
And insurance being contributory.
I have always thought old age pensions ought to be contributory, and I voted for that in this House. Quite apart from that I am objecting, and I cannot get the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take the point, to all these different items of expenditure incurred at the same time when the nation cannot properly stand them. That is the point he has got to meet. He need not have incurred this enormous amount on insurance as well as on old age pensions. He ought to have put off this wild and costly experiment of insurance until he could moderate his expenditure in other directions. He has been in office six or seven years, and each year he has enormously increased the national expenditure. Whatever amount of National Debt he may have taken off, the increase has been far greater, taken in capital liability. The capital liability of old age pensions amounts to £400,000,000. I was about to tell as to the Insurance Act. That, I think, cost £50,000 this year, and it will cost £6,000,000 per year, and I dare say ever so much more, as the expenditure to which we are committed it is really not known. That £6,000,000 means, capitalised, £200,000,000; so that if you take old age pensions and the Insurance Act together the real fact is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made an increase of £600,000,000 to the National Debt. Then he comes and boasts he has paid off £64,000,000. [An HON. MEMBER: "Capitalise that."] The £64,000,000 is over a series of years, and is capital already, and you cannot compare the two of them in that way. The £12,000,000 for old age pensions is an annual charge, and the £6,000,000 for Insurance is another annual charge. That is what I am capitalising; that is the point the Chancellor of the Exchequer has got to meet. In doing all that we entirely leave out of account the possibility of another war, or another emergency such as the strike, or any other national catastrophe or crisis which might need a large sum of money. All that is omitted, and when you have got those very high liabilities it always becomes more difficult, and it is certainly more difficult now, to borrow at the same rate of interest as we were doing hitherto. There is always the danger that the rate of interest will go up, and that has to be taken into consideration.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not, I am afraid, and I hope he will forgive me for saying so, a financier of the same calibre as Mr. Gladstone or even Sir William Harcourt or Sir Stafford North-cote. The reason is not that he is not just as able. I desire to give him credit for his great ability, but it is, if I may say so respectfully, because he is very much more fond of temporary party gains or a party gain as his main consideration in preference to sound finance. The two do not work together. He cannot be a sound financier and undertake a sound financial policy by always keeping an eye on what is going to make a good election cry. I am quite sure that a great deal too much attention is paid to what will make a good election cry at the next election; whether he can use the £6,500,000 for those purposes, or can pride himself that £64,000,000 is taken off rather than looking at the matter apart from the party point of view, and as a financier and as the administrator of the national finances pure and simple. I fear we may have, and I think we have, reason to suspect what may happen to this £6,500,000. I think we are entitled to press and to know that it is really for the Navy it is required, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not go in for other unprecedented courses except under very exceptional circumstances. I do not like this method of hanging up in the air a surplus in a way that has never been done before. It is true that some national emergency might occur in relation to foreign countries which would justify it. But I do not like it as a principle. I do not think it ought often to be resorted to, and, if it is resorted to under these circumstances, it ought to be only with an express statement as to the purposes for which the money will be used. I should like to have, so to speak, a species of Appropriation Act straight away, limiting the expenditure to certain objects, or even to the one purpose of the Navy, rather than the Chancellor of the Exchequer should say that he is going to use the money for any service that suits his purpose for the moment.
In regard to Consols, I think it is insufficiently remembered that the price of Consols is the test of national credit, and that any diminution of our national credit as compared with that of other countries does us harm in the general world of finance. It is said that we have reduced the rate of interest from 3 per cent, to 2½ per cent., and that consequently the price has gone down. No doubt that is the case, but it has gone down a great deal more proportionately than the rate of interest. Consols at 100 paying 3 per cent, are equivalent to Consols paying 2½ per cent, at 83, but 83 is considerably above the present price. It is, therefore, clear that it is not merely the reduction in the rate of interest that has caused the fall in price. Indeed, when Consols were first reduced to 2½ per cent.—in 1903 I think—the price remained at 89, which is six points above the price at which they ought to be compared with Consols at par paying 3 per cent., and several more points above the price of Consols at the present moment. The Chancellor of the Exchequer often tells us that Trustee Investments have had a great deal to do with the fall in price. I agree that they had something to do with it, but I think that to a great extent the influence of that cause has passed away. There was at first some rush for those Trustee Investments, but I do not think that the effect now is nearly as great as it was when the Acts were first passed in 1889, 1893, and 1900. There is no doubt that national credit has been considerably shaken. It is equally true that the value of land has been considerably shaken. I know, from my own information, that insurance companies have been revising their mortgages mainly because of the Budget of 1909. But there is no attempt to raise the credit of the country. Far from it. The spendthrift policy of extravagance continues. The maxims upon which Chancellors of the Exchequer used to work are now disregarded. Sir William Harcourt used constantly to tell us that direct taxation and indirect taxation ought to be about equally balanced; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer told me the other day that the proportions now were: direct taxation 57.27, and indirect taxation 42.73. I do not think there has been so large a difference between direct and indirect taxation in the administration of any Chancellor of the Exchequer before the right hon. Gentleman opposite took office. There is no real attempt to administer the finances of the country on the old maxims of Mr. Gladstone and Sir William Harcourt. There is no attempt to raise the credit of the country. The only way to reduce taxation is to reduce expenditure, and I see no prospect of reducing expenditure while the present Government is in office. As an illustration showing how confidence is shaken I may take the action of Mr. Pierpont Morgan in removing his collection from South Kensington Museum. He has done that because his confidence has been shaken, and because he thinks he will have to pay large Estate Duties if he leaves it there.
That is not the reason. Mr. Pierpont Morgan has contradicted that statement. Moreover, the Act of 1909 is in the direction of absolving him from the charge which would have fallen on the estate.
Then I withdraw that statement. I was not aware that it had been contradicted. But there is evidence that confidence has been shaken. As a more recent instance I may quote the difficulty in connection with the Indian issue a few days ago. If our credit had been such as it was before there would have been a much greater rush for that issue. It is because the whole confidence of the nation has been shaken that investors have been driven either to going themselves to other countries or to investing their fortunes there. Only the other day I met a Canadian who told me that many excellent emigrants had gone to Canada, and that he really thought it would be very reasonable to put up in Canada a statue to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the ground that he had sent over so many good men and had sent away from this country so much capital to be invested there. Confidence is undoubtedly shaken, and the only way to restore it is to change the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his methods. It is this constant change from the old ways of administering the national finances, this novel idea of raising election cries and throwing aside sound finance for mere vote-catching phrases, that is doing damage to the credit of the country, and I hope that the policy will be changed at the earliest possible moment.
I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will give an assurance in reply to the explicit question put by my right hon. Friend as to what the course of the Government will be in regard to the actual treatment of this surplus. I cannot conceive anything worse in the general interests of sound finance than that by an act of this Government in the present year it should afterwards become possible for any Government to impress upon the heads of Departments that it would be a rather good thing if in a particular year they overestimated the amount of money they required, and thus at the end of the year provide the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a much larger surplus than he ought really to have, and so enable him to go just at the time of a General Election to the country and say:—"We have got such and such a surplus; I am not going to devote it to the payment of debt, but I propose to devote it to some social object." This might give his party a lot of votes. That would be quite possible if the example is set this year of a realised surplus of the preceding year being, not devoted to the payment of debt but to some totally different object for which no definite provision has been made in the Budget itself. With regard to the amount of money possible to be spent on the Navy in the present financial year, surely it is absolutely impossible for six and a half millions to be so spent over and above the present naval programme? So far as we know, there is no immediate necessity for increased expenditure on the part of the Government. Even if it did turn out that some foreign Power proceeded to order in the next few months a very much larger number of armoured ships or cruisers than expected, surely it would be absolutely impossible for the Government of this country to spend as much as six and a half millions on further ships before the end of the present financial year! I cannot believe that the whole of that sum of money can be devoted in that direction.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer devoted a considerable amount of the time of his reply to pointing out what excellent people his party had been in the matter of paying off debt, and what inferior people the Unionist party had been in the same direction. He attempted to prove that the Radical party, while not paying off as much debt as they might have done, had yet done much more than the Unionist party, who in their time of office had more depreciated the price of Consols. The answer to that argument is that in the last Unionist Administration, during the years before the South African war, the price of Consols were very much above par. They rose to 114. At present they are down to 78½ Therefore it was not nearly such sound finance to pay off debt when you had to buy a £100 worth of stock at 110 or 114, as when you can buy it at 78½, and thereby make a very good bargain in the interests of the country. The right hon. Gentleman went on to point out one or two factors which had had a very considerable effect in depreciating the price of Consols. It is perfectly true that the enlargement of the area of Trustee Investments did have a certain effect in inducing people to invest money in investments other than Consols. It is also perfectly true that a large amount of money which was put upon the market in the shape of Irish land stock and in connection with the financing of the South African war, took away from the Consol market a very considerable amount of money which would otherwise have been used there. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer forgot to mention one or two other important points, namely that the banks and the insurance companies, who in the past had been large holders of Consols, for the simple reason that they were the most marketable securities in times of any emergency in the City of London, have to a very considerable extent ceased to hold Consols, and hold in their place short-dated loans and other kinds of Government securities.
They have done this for the very simple reason that these short-dated loans which have to be repaid by a certain date, tend to keep their price up to its ordinary level, whereas if they hold Consols they never know day by day how much that kind of stock is going to depreciate. That has had a very considerable effect in withdrawing from the Consol market a large body of investors. You must also bear in mind this fact, that though the Government have during their term of office devoted a large sum of money to paying off debt, they have devoted the greater portion of that money to paying off the Unfunded Debt, thus leaving a smaller sum for the purpose of buying up Consols. I believe it is the case that from the year 1905–6 to the end of 1909–10, the amount of money spent by the Government in paying off Unfunded Debt or short-dated loans was £27,000,000, whereas the amount of money put towards buying up Consols was only £12,000,000. I venture to suggest that the Government could always, by the issue of further short-dated securities, raise money very easily in London for paying off Bills. It would be much better if they devoted a much larger sum every year to buying up Consols which they can buy at such a very good price for the Government. Doing that would tend to create steadiness in the Consol market. Then of course the Government have, as has been said, reduced the New Sinking Fund from £28,000,000 to £24,500,000 a year. That has naturally had its effect in diminishing the amount of money provided by the Government for buying up Consols, and thereby tended also to keep
It must not also be forgotten that the enormous Death Duties that are now payable have had a great effect in depreciating Consols, because we have no less a sum than £25,500,000 per annum extracted in the form of taxation through Death Duties. These large sales of Consols and other gilt-edged securities tend to keep the price of Consols at a low ebb. I think also it must not be forgotten, in relation to the investment of capital abroad, that in former days it was a custom for only the surplus capital of this country to be invested abroad. Nowadays there is undoubtedly—whether we think it a good or a bad thing—an increased tendency on the part of investors to look for another country in which to invest, at any rate, some part of their securities. People think nowadays much more of splitting up their investments in various countries, and the natural effect of that has been also to diminish the amount of money available for the purchase of Consols at home.
What is the remedy for all this? Various, suggestions have been made. Some have suggested that it is desirable to raise the rate of interest for Consols, and to give people in exchange for their present holding of Two and a Half per Cent. Stock an equivalent amount in Three percent. Stock, which would in itself reduce the total amount of the debt, and would tend to raise the price of the stock to a. higher value. Another suggestion has been put forward, namely, that Consols should be free of Income Tax. That would not, I fancy, be very favourably received. There appears to me to be no very good reason why, if Consols are free of Income Tax, the same privilege should not be applied to other classes of Government securities. I believe that the more accepted remedy by people in the City of London is that the best thing the Government can do is to devote a larger sum of money every year to the repayment of debt and the purchase of Consols. And the worst thing that could possibly happen is to divert any sum of money during this or any other year which ought of itself to go to the purchase of Consols. As regards the value of other kinds of securities of a similar character, we must realise this fact, that the yield in the various first-class stocks in other countries as compared with Consols; has very materially changed in the past few years. For instance, in 1897 £100? worth of money invested in 2½ per cent. Consols would yield the investor £l 19s. If invested in French Three per Cent. Rentes, £2 18s. 6d., and if invested in German Three per Cents., £3 2s. 6d.
What was the price of the German Three per Cents.?
I have not the actual figures, but I believe the right hon. Gentleman will find the comparisons to be accurate. In 1900 the yield of Consols was £2 10s. 6d.; French Rentes, £3. German Three per Cents., £3 10s. At that time, particularly in 1897, the yield to the investor was very much higher, both in German and French securities, than in English, and therefore the credit of these countries was not nearly as good as in Great Britain. Then, coming to 1910, the .yield to the investor in Consols rose to .£3 2s.; the same amount of money in French Rentes was £3 2s., and in German Three per Cents. £3 12s. 6d. Therefore the French credit had risen to ours, and the German credit had very materially improved itself as compared to ours; and if you take the price at the present day—78—the yield from that to the investor is s£3 3s. 8d., and to the investor in French Rentes £3 5s., and German Three per "Cents. £3 15s. Then, again, at the present day the yield to the investor in French Rentes is slightly more than English Consols, and German Three per Cents, about 11s. more than English Consols. I mention this as showing that the credit of this country at the present time does not hold the very superior position it did a few years ago. All these things point to the fact that this is a matter deserving the very careful consideration of this House and the Government. I venture to express the hope that some time in this Session the Government will give a day for a discussion upon the position of first-class securities in this country in order to find some kind of remedy of a non-party character which can be put forward by both sides to raise the price of our own British Stock, and incidentally to raise the credit of Great Britain.
There is one further topic I wish to refer to and that is in connection with local taxation licences. It will be remembered that when the present Prime Minister announced in his Budget of 1907 that in the next financial year, 1908–9, the collection of local taxation licences, motor cars, and carriages, armorial bearings, male servants, and so on, would be transferred from the Inland Revenue officials to the local authorities, and that the local authorities would receive a sum equal to the amount collected by them in respect of these licences—it will be remembered that then the duty on motor cars was two to five guineas; and on motor bicycles 15s. Then came the Finance Act of 1909–1910. The duty went up from £2 2s. as a minimum to a maximum of £42, and it was enacted in that Budget that the extra proceeds of those duties was to be given to the Road Board. Afterwards it was felt to be difficult to exactly assess the amount of the equivalent Grant that the local authorities ought to receive, because although there was a large increase in the rate of duty, that could not be credited to the local authority, and, on the other hand, there might be a very considerable increase in the number of motor cars, which normal rate of increase ought to go to the local authorities. It was very difficult to find out what was the actual sum that ought to go to the local authorities, and in the Act of 1910 it is provided that the county councils should in each year be paid a sum equal to the amount of Motor Duty collected for the year ending 31st March. 1909, and the Revenue Act of 1911 made similar provision as to carriages.
The effect of this has been by no means advantageous to the local authorities, because it so happened that in the year 1908–9, which was fixed as the year upon which the amount was to be based which was to be paid over to the local authorities by the Exchequer, happened to be a very bad year in connection with the collection of the duties on motor cars, for the simple reason that for the first nine months the collection of these duties was still undertaken by the Inland Revenue authorities. In that very period they happened to be engaged in getting the Old Age Pensions Act into working order, and they had not devoted as much time and attention as they had done before to the collection of these duties, with the result that during that nine months the collection of those duties fell off. That took us to the end of 1908, and for the next three months the local officials of the county councils were collecting these duties. They had to start a new set of officials, and naturally they did not in these three months collect as much of these duties as in the succeeding years. The total result was that both from the Inland Revenue and county council point of view the year fixed as a basis was a very bad year for collecting those duties, and therefore the sum paid over to the local authorities in return and fixed generally was not nearly so big a sum as it would have been if the following year, 1909–10, had been taken. What I wish to put before the Government is this. It would be very unfair to take that year as the basis of the Government contribution, and if the Government will allow me I will give the exact figures and the difference it makes to these local authorities. For instance, the county of Cornwall had a decreased contribution in 1910–11 from the Treasury of £2,190, as compared with 1909–10. Devon had a decrease of £3,587, and Gloucester £2,161, Middlesex £3,459, Somerset £4,194, and so on. The total diminution amounts to £45,000, and the total increase in other instances amounts to £9,700, making a total decrease in Exchequer contributions to counties of £35,000. This is a very serious thing to a great many local authorities and they view with no friendly eye the attitude of this House.
When this alteration was made by the 1910 Act the local authorities thought it was the intention of the Government to deal fairly with them, but by a collection of circumstances it has been found that the House did not deal fairly with them, and I ask the Government to take this point into serious consideration and see whether they cannot either allow the local authorities a fixed percentage of duty for themselves on the Motor Car Duties which they collect—that would give them an interest in the increased amount collected on the motors which are going about the country—or else the Government could adopt the year 1909–10 for fixing the amount of the sum which is to be paid over by the Exchequer to the local authorities. If the right hon. Gentleman would like to have the figures, some of which I have read out, I should only be too glad to show them to him, and then he would be better able to grasp my argument. I do not think the Government have treated the local authorities fairly either in the matter of the cost of collection of these duties. In Gloucestershire the Government Grant to cost of collection was £620, but for some mysterious reason that has been diminishing, while, on the other hand, the cost of collection is £1,200; and of the sum it collects about £6,000 is attributed to the increased duty on motors, from which the county gets not a penny benefit, and which all goes to the National Exchequer. Before the Bill is finally printed, I hope the Government will see if they cannot draft some Clause which will give relief to these local authorities for this is merely a matter of common justice to them.
This discussion has undoubtedly been somewhat technical, but one or two points have been mentioned about which I wish to make a few observations. The hon. Member for Aston Manor (Mr. E. Cecil) reminded us that he addressed the House some few months ago upon this subject. May I say that the speech he has delivered to-night is one of the most doleful and pessimistic speeches I have ever listened to in this House. I am certain if we were to be influenced by the pessimism which was the hon. Member's dominant note it is possible we might conclude that there is some truth in the statement so often made that the end of all things is coming. The one point in particular I want to refer to is the insistence with which the hon. Member for Aston Manor pressed this point, and asked for an announcement from the Government in regard to the £6,500,000 surplus which remains to the credit of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was very insistent upon asking whether that money was to be spent for the Navy or not. I imagine it would not be doing any injustice to the hon. Members and to the right hon. Gentlemen opposite if I were to suggest that there would not be one protesting voice from the Opposition benches if the whole of that surplus was going to be spent on the Navy.
Speaking for myself and for the party with which I am associated, I want to state that from a vastly different standpoint we are somewhat concerned about the fact that there is that reserve balance in this connection. I think we may claim that we have behind us a very large volume of public opinion in the country, and even in the ranks of the supporters of the Government of this House, and in the journals that support the Government there is quite an anxious fear and concern in regard to the possibility that that money has been reserved for the purpose of further .expenditure in connection with the Navy. So far as myself and my colleagues 'are concerned I want to express the fervent hope that those fears and doubts are unfounded, and that they will not find any justification in fact as far as the future policy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is concerned. If our fears are realised I do not think it will be any disappointment to the Government to find that on these benches we shall strenuously oppose what we believe to be unnecessary expenditure so far as the Navy is concerned. Whoever is going to reply on behalf of the Government with reference to the £6,500,000 and the Navy. I do want to join with those who have asked that question, and urge the attention of the Government to the necessity for giving an answer to that question in order to allay the feeling there is generally not only amongst the supporters of the Government, but also on the Labour Benches. The hon. Gentleman who preceded me suggested that in no case would it be possible to spend the whole of that £6,500,000 on the Navy. I hope that not a single fraction of that money will be spent in that direction.
The hon. Member for Aston Manor made a very doleful speech, and he was at some pains to emphasise and urge, from his standpoint, the iniquity of the Government in having passed an Old Age Pensions Act. The one thing that strikes me as a layman in this House when discussions such as these are taking place, is that it would appear that the only standard of value and the only measurement applied is the standard represented by the coin of the realm. May I suggest to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that there is another factor which ought to be taken into consideration, even in a discussion like this. What has been the value received for the money spent? What reflex has it had in the life of the nation and the people constituting the nation? I think no Act, so far as the present Government is concerned, has so universally had the approval of the people of the country as the Old Age Pensions Act. It stands to the credit of the Government, and the money has been a wise, a sound, and even an economic investment. The hon. Gentleman also complains about the Insurance Act, and he is very much alarmed because the Government brought it in so suddenly and so quickly after the passing of the Old Age Pensions Act. When the Bill passed its final stage through this House the hon. Member had an opportunity of Toting against it, and I should have had much more respect for his views and should certainly have attached more value to his criticisms if, when that opportunity was afforded him, he had dared to go into the Division Lobby against that Act, but his attitude and the attitude of some other hon. Gentlemen who have spoken from the opposite benches is consistent with their attitude in the country. The hon. Gentleman also said the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not a financier. I am not concerned or interested in defending the Chancellor of the Exchequer; he is quite able to defend himself. Much of the criticism against the Land Taxes and against the financial policy generally of the Government is, in my judgment accounted for by the fact that the financiers of the country resent the action and the policy of the Government; but to the extent that the Government's policy limits and interferes with the power of the financiers to exploit the people of the country, we on these benches are on the side of the Government, and will support them at all times in so far as they are willing to legislate on lines of constructive reform, even more drastic than they have yet attempted. I think it is for the good of the people of the nation as a whole that the power of the financiers should be-further restricted, and to that extent we-on these benches will support the Government.
I rise for the purpose of dealing with one aspect of the question. I noticed the Chancellor of the Exchequer took credit to himself that he had helped agriculture by an increased contribution towards the maintenance of the roads, and therefore towards relieving the local ratepayers. I venture to point out that the reverse is the case. The right hon. Gentleman's policy of handing over to the county councils a commuted sum in lieu of the actual receipts from motor car licences has deprived those public bodies of a considerable sum which they would otherwise have received.
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I may perhaps, in order to remove misapprehension, be allowed to say that the statement about agriculture by my right hon. Friend was a reference to the Development Grant, and had nothing to do with the roads at all.
I thought the right hon. Gentleman claimed that by his policy he had helped agriculture, and I venture to say the reverse has been the case. I was dealing only with one direction in which his policy has been injurious. I could have shown that his land policy has made it harder for the agricultural classes to live. I desire to appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider at least a matter which we believe to be an injustice to the ratepayers of the counties. Everybody connected with the maintenance of the main roads knows that the great increase in motor traction has entailed an enormous increase in the expense of the maintenance of the roads, and we complain that while that is so only a part of the increased receipts from licences by reason of the development of motor vehicles are handed over to the local authority. This policy of handing over a commuted sum, instead of the actual receipts, deprived the county of Devon alone last year of the sum of £4,000. We submit that is an injustice. The increase in motor traction has entailed on the ratepayers a greatly increased expenditure in repairing the damage to the roads consequent, and we maintain that the local authority who have to pay for the repair of the road ought to have the full receipt from the licences instead of a commuted sum based on the receipts when motor carriages were much less prevalent than they are at the present time. We appeal to his sense of justice to hand over to the local bodies the actual receipts in order that they may be able to repair the damage caused by the increased motor traffic without adding an increased, and I think an unjust, burden upon the local ratepayers. We are anxious in the counties to secure good roads, but, while the development of motor traffic has entailed an enormous increase in the cost of the maintenance of the road, and while the local ratepayer has to pay for the repair of the roads, the Imperial Exchequer receives the bulk of the increased receipts from this motor development. I confine myself to this particular point, and I am satisfied that on consideration the right hon. Gentleman will see that he has done an injustice to the local ratepayers in calling upon them to pay a greatly increased sum to repair the damage done by the increase of motor traffic, whilst as custodian of the national purse he receives a great advantage in all the money which comes from the licences entailed by this increased traffic. I do ask him to consider whether he cannot hand over to those local bodies a sum commensurate with the actual sum received from the licences on motor traffic. As agriculturists, we wish to see the roads well maintained, but as the cost of maintenance has been greatly increased by motor traffic we ought to have the full receipts of the licences therefrom.
I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that if the Government could see their way they ought to give something to the local authorities in regard to the roads. It would be very acceptable. I agree also to a great extent with what the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Hicks Beach) has said. I have listened to those two Gentlemen, and having listened to the speeches upon the same side early in the afternoon I noticed that they were rather different in tone and character. With regard to the reduction in the price of Consols and the comparison with French and German Funds, we find, according to the figures of the Member for Tewkesbury, that we have made considerable progress in the last two years.
Certainly not.
The Member for Tewkesbury gave the figures. He said that in 1910 the value received for Consols was £3 2s., for the French Funds £3 2s., and for the German £3 12s. 6d., whereas now it is £3 3s. 8d. for Consols, £3 5s. for French, and £3 15s. for German, so that we are several points better than we were two years ago.
The hon. Member does not understand the figures; it is the other way round.
I am taking the return which the funds yield, to those who invest in them, and these are the figures he gave. I will leave the hon. Baronet to settle the matter with his Friend, who is not in the House at present, when he comes back. With regard to the Member for Clapham (Mr. G. Faber), I cannot see how he can recommend that the six and a-half millions should be spent on the Navy. How would it benefit Consols if it was spent on the Navy? He was quite prepared to say nothing provided it went to the Navy, but he also complained that the whole of the six millions did not go in reduction of debt. Here I quite agree with him. I think it would be a great benefit to the country, as well as to Consols, but how would it benefit the funds if all that money was spent on the Navy? For my part I cannot see any argument at all for that course. [An HON. MEMBER: "It would give employment."] Yes, it would give employment, but I do not think it would have much effect upon the price of Consols if it was spent in that way. On the other hand, if the money were spent upon social reform, it would benefit the country much more than if it were spent on the Navy. I agree that the money should be spent on the reduction of debt, but I do say to my hon. Friend (the Secretary to the Treasury) and the Chancellor of the Exchequer that I hope they will not listen to the blandishments of Gentlemen oh the other side, who think that the whole of this six and a-half millions should go for naval purposes, because I believe that every penny above what is absolutely necessary which is spent on the Navy does no good and does a great deal of harm to the country. I agree with my Friend who spoke just now from below the Gangway, that there is great feeling among those who sit behind the Government with regard to this matter, and we should like to know what the intention of the Government is. There is not the slightest doubt that a great number of them would far rather give the whole of the six millions, if it can be so used, to redeem Consols. At any rate, a large part of it should be used for that purpose. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, when introducing the Budget, said there was from one million to a million and a quarter which had not been used by the Navy Department because they had not completed shipbuilding work as they had intended to do last year, and therefore that sum might be fairly set aside for the Navy. But there are five millions more which, if they went at once to redeem Consols, would redeem, I believe, about seven and a-half millions at the present moment.
It is just over seven millions.
That would have an effect upon the money market which we should all like to see at the present time. Of course, with regard to the amount of debt which has been paid on by the present Government, no one—I do not care on which side of the House—can grumble at that. You may grumble about the Income Tax, as the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Agg-Gardner) did when he quoted from the Prime Minister who said in 1906 that Income Tax should not be at Is. in times of peace. Well, he quite forgot that Income Tax to the great majority of the people of this country is not 1s., but 9d., at the present moment.
Much less than 9d.
Yes, much less than 9d. Even a man receiving up to anything like £2,000 a year of earned income does not pay more than 9d., and it goes down to 2d. or 2½d. or nothing. With regard to the amount of debt paid off, looking back these six years, we are proud of the amount which has been devoted to that purpose by the Government, and I am quite sure that it is not because the Government have not paid off debts quickly enough that the price of Consols is so low "as we all deplore it is now. I should like to have, and a great many on this side would I am sure also like to have from the hon. Gentleman something that might relieve our minds as to whether any part of this six and a-half millions will be wasted on armaments this year. I should certainly say that not a halfpenny of it ought to be spent in that way unless the whole thing is discussed on the floor of the House. I am quite sure, from a party point of view, that would be an advantage both to the House and the Government. I do not think there are many economists on the other side, but there are a great many left on this side who believe with regard to the spending of money that we ought to get every pennyworth of value we can. We do not grudge old age pensions, but we do grudge money which is practically wasted upon armaments in this country and in other countries, and I hope and trust that not a penuy of this sum will be spent upon naval purposes.
The hon. Member who has just sat down says that the Treasury spend a considerable amount of money for naval purposes. Hon. Members on this side of the House on the introduction of the Budget, and again to-day, have tried to get a declaration from the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to his intentions with regard to spending this £6,500,000, but with very little success. So far as we have been told there are three reasons for the strengthening of the Treasury balances. The coal strike is advanced as the first reason. It does not seem to me very sound, because there is provision .in the financial machinery of the country for dealing with deficits as well as surpluses, and if, as a result of the coal strike, a deficit should arise, the financial machinery of the country provides for wiping it out. The next reason advanced was underspending on the Naval Programme. That seemed a very curious reason, because in the Estimates introduced to this House a short time ago, £600,000 was provided for naval expenditure on account of the underspending. The third reason advanced was the possibility referred to by the First Lord of the Admiralty in introducing his Estimates. I personally would be quite satisfied with that reason, and would not press the point any further, if the House were given an assurance that the money would be used for naval purposes. But we do not seem to be able to get any such declaration. One of my hon. Friends in the Debate on the Budget pressed the Financial Secretary to the Treasury for an answer on this point, and said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not quite so distinct as some of us would have liked in saying that the money was going to be ear-marked for the needs of the Navy. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury replied:— during the year 1912–13, and then next year to come into the House and say, "Look at the Budget of 1909; there has never been a deficit." In other words, he is able to declare there is no deficit, and at the same time to have the pleasure of making a deficit.
Since I have been in this House—it is not very long—I have heard of three raids made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The first raid, of £300,000, was in March, 1910. Then the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, or someone on that bench, explained that it was only a little one. That did not make much difference. The next raid was in March, 1911, when the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) brought it to the attention of this House. The amount was then £600,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was getting on. This year he comes in with a raid, on 31st March, of £6,500,000. One cannot conceive of his next raid, but the amount is growing very rapidly. The Chancellor of the Exchequer explained to us to-day that the decline in the price of Consols was due to several reasons. He said it was due to the South African war, to Irish land purchase, and to the broadened scope of trustee investments. He declared that he was not responsible for any of those causes. With that we quite agree. He declared, further, that the price of Consols depends upon the number of buyers, but he forgot to add that the number of buyers depends upon public confidence. We know quite well that he had nothing to do with the South African war, Irish land purchase, or broadening the scope of trustee investments, but he has had a great deal to do with public confidence, and he can hardly expect or demand public confidence so long as he is making these raids on the Treasury from time to time. I looked up a speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which he made in the country. He is always much more interesting in the country than in this House. The speech was one he made on 22nd April, 1908. I think he went to the Treasury on 31st April, 1908. On 22nd April he went to support his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty at Manchester, and I do not think the First Lord of the Admiralty had much to thank him for in his visit. In his speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer said:— That was on 22nd April, 1908. He went on:—
I am aware that the Debate is running on a very broad gauge to-night, but the hon. Member's remarks are quite outside the limit of order.
The point I am making is that under this proposed appropriation of £6,500,000 a precedent will be created which, in after years, will have a distinct and definite bearing upon Irish finance. The Chancellor is to-day tying up £6,500,000 without saying for what purpose he is going to divert the money, or whether he is going to divert it to any purpose at all. To-day we see him tying up £6,000,000. Next year he may tie up a larger sum. If he ties up £6,000,000 why not eventually £60,000,000? It is quite possible to carry such a sum over from year to year. The whole principle upon which the country's finance is founded, of expenditure belonging to the year in which the expenditure is undertaken and revenue being raised to dispose of, or to pay for, the expenditure in the same year, is utterly shattered, and I solemnly protest against it. I am sorry I cannot complete my argument as to the relation which this impounding of money bears to the Irish Budget, but I hope I shall have an opportunity of bringing it up on the Home Rule Bill itself.
I agree to a great extent with the criticisms of the hon. Member on this proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am very sorry to have to criticise or disagree with the proposals of a Minister in whom I believe and whose departures in finance have given great satisfaction to me and to a great many of my friends in and out of the House, but I have heard no justification in the whole course of this Debate for the proposal to hold up this balance from the proper reservoir into which, as I understand our financial position, it ought to be poured. I have been brought up to believe that our financial system is an annual one. We determine each year what we shall spend within that year. The Chancellor's business is to raise money to meet that expenditure. If he makes a miscalculation or a wrongful estimate of the amount which will be yielded by the taxation which he imposes and there is a surplus over, as I have always understood the practice and the theory of British finance, it would become his duty, and I believe even his statutory duty, to return the whole of that money for the extinction of the National Debt. If I hand a sovereign to a waiter in payment for a half-crown dinner I expect him to give me 17s. 6d. change, and not to put it in his pocket and say, "You will perhaps be dining here to-morrow night." At any rate, if I have correctly understood the principles of British finance, there is a very good reason for that principle. The object of it is, of course, to secure complete and immediate control of the House of Commons over the way in which the Treasury deals with the money. The House has always been jealous of that power of criticism. Only the other day it set up an Estimates Committee with a similar object, that we might watch more closely what is done with the money which we take out of the taxpayer's pocket—out of the poor taxpayer's pocket as well as the rich. I read a very interesting letter in the "Times" the other day by a financial authority who, I am sorry to say, is no longer in the House—Mr. Thomas Gibson Bowles—upon this very question. I think it will be admitted that he is a financial authority who is entitled to our respect, and that he has a great faculty of expressing his points with terseness and effect. He says:—
"Our accounts are strictly cash accounts beginning and ending with the year, without any balances brought forward or carried forward. This is the very core, the very marrow, of the system which secures Parliamentary control, and without the maintenance of which that control must inevitably he lost. And it is to secure this that the law prescribes that at the end of each year all unexpended balances are to be surrendered, by the Departments and applied to the diminution of the National Debt."
He goes on to argue that otherwise if this practice were to creep in and become sanctioned, the only effect would be to encourage Ministers to overestimate the expenditure of their Departments. I assure my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Front Bench that it was with great reluctance I did feel it to be my duty as a Liberal, brought up in orthodox Liberal finance, to rise and make this protest. I am not a man to run away from my opinions, and therefore it will be my duty to vote against the Motion unless some attempt is made from the official bench to defend the proposal now before the Committee. There is another point I desire to mention before I relieve the House of my troublesome observations. I am concerned to know why the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken hold of this money to add to his Exchequer balances. What has he got in his mind? What is it for? He will not tell us. Journalists have been guessing at it in various newspapers. One suggestion I saw would almost reconcile me to what is being done. It was suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might be intending to accelerate the operation of the Insurance Act by conferring the benefits six months earlier than was at first intended. I do not believe that is so. If it were, it would be half justification for it. What I am afraid of is that he means the Navy. He means more of the "Dreadnoughts" which I saw disporting the other day. I am afraid these monsters are going to be added to. At any rate, the holding up of this money looks like a menace to our potential, or as I should say imaginary, enemies. It is something like the four contingent "Dreadnoughts" which we held out as a sort of menace to Germany. I believe this £6,500,000 is held up for the very same purpose. I dissociate myself from Hon. Members who have criticised this Motion on the other side of the House, because I do not think it lies in their mouth, after the record they have established in regard to finance during the years they were in power, to make the observations that they have made to-day. I hope if any further answer is given from the Front Bench, there will be some defence of the proposal now made.
I agree with the first part of the speech of the hon. Member (Sir W. Byles), but I disagree strongly with the last part. I will deal for the moment with the part with which I do agree. I think the hon. Member has put his finger on the two blots of this particular proposal. The first blot is that if this is to be made a precedent, it will give encouragement to Departments to overestimate their expenditure in order that in the following year they may have a surplus for something which they know perfectly well the House of Commons would not sanction if put in the form of a direct Vote. That is one of the reasons why surpluses have for many years been devoted to the extinction of debt. That practice has had the effect that if the Departments budgeted for more than they required, it would do no good to themselves, because they knew that any surplus that would accrue would be obliged to go to the redemption of debt. There was in former days considerable discussion among the old economists whether this was or was not a good plan, but I think in all the discussions that took place the weight or opinion always was that this was the best plan to pursue. As to the second part of the hon. Member's speech, I think he a little bit confused the use to which the surplus would be put. At the commencement of his speech he said that this had nothing to do with the price of Consols. He stated that the surplus should be devoted to the redemption of debt. I would point out that the redemption of debt must have an influence on the price of Consols unless there are other matters at the moment which have greater influence than the application of money to the purchase of these securities. I think at the moment the hon. Member forgot that the redemption of debt includes arguments which could be used as to the price of Consols. I did not quite understand what the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Timothy Davies) meant by some figures which he gave in regard to the price of Consols, French Rentes, and German Threes. That matter was conclusively dealt with by the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Sir W. Max Aitken). I think the hon. Member opposite stated that two years ago Consols returned to the purchaser £3 5s., and French Rentes £3 5s., while at the present moment Consols return 3 and 3-8ths, and French Rentes still return £3 5s. That was because the price of Consols had fallen, while the price of Rentes remained the same.
The hon. Baronet has not given the right figures.
The figures which the hon. Gentleman gave did not prove his argument. As a matter of fact they went the other way. For the first time in history French Rentes returned the same interest as British Consols. Hitherto Consols always returned considerably less than French Rentes, but owing to the fact that the French Government guaranteed a 4 per cent, railway loan, and thereby inspired a certain want of confidence in Rentes, that security has depreciated to a certain extent, and now they do not return the same as Consols.
I am prepared to show any hon. Gentleman who chooses any day to come with me, to-morrow if he likes, the Stock Exchange Official Lists for the last thirty years. He may take the year 1895, when the party to which I had the honour to belong, or the year 1906, when the party to which he belongs came into power, and he will find, comparing the price of foreign Government securities in either of those two years, that every single one of them, except Greece, Honduras, and countries of that description, has not fallen in the proportion that Consols have, and in one or two instances there has been actually a rise. If he will take what are called gilt-edged securities he will see exactly the same thing. Take the preference and debenture stocks of our English railways, the mortgage bonds of American railways, or the debenture stock of Argentine railways, he will find that they have either fallen in a very small proportion or have actually risen, while Consols have fallen from 30 per cent, to 40 per cent. These are figures which cannot be contradicted, because if he looks up the official list he will see that there is no doubt that that is a fact. I do not wish to enter into any argument as to whether or not the Government have been responsible for the fall in Consols, but the fall has actually occurred, and it is the duty of the Government to take some steps to remedy that misfortune. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Russell Rea) attempted to defend the Government upon the ground that in the years 1896, 1897, 1898, and 1899 Lord St. Aldwyn did take the Old Sinking Fund and devote it, not to the redemption of debt, but to certain other purposes. That is quite true. It is also quite true that in the year 1899 I defended the action of Lord St. Aldwyn, and I should be prepared to do it again. But what the right hon. Gentleman has forgotten is that the circumstances then were entirely different from the circumstances existing at the present moment. If you have to pay £114 in order to buy £100 Consols you have to pay a great deal more than if you can buy £100 Consols for £78. During those years Consols varied in price from £112 to £114. At present they stand at £78. Therefore any person who in any way understands finance will see that the present is an extraordinarily favourable opportunity for the redemption of debt, whereas the time to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded was not a good moment for the redemption of debt, but, on the contrary, it was a bad moment, because for every £100 of debt redeemed you are either paying £112 or £114. At that time when Lord St, Aldwyn was the Chancellor of the Exchequer it was the policy of this party that in providing for the safety of the country for naval or military purposes loans should be raised. The idea was that the safety of the Empire was something which concerned not only the present generation but a future generation, and that it was not fair to put the whole charge upon the present generation, but that a future generation should bear some of the cost.
I am not concerned with demonstrating whether that was right or wrong, but the policy of the right hon. Gentleman opposite was that that policy of loans was wrong, and that the expenses of the year, whatever they were, should be met by cash payments out of the revenue of the year. What is the Chancellor of the Exchequer doing at the present moment? The suspension of the Sinking Fund means borrowing. It is exactly the same as a loan, as was stated by my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham (Mr. G. D. Faber). While we in 1897 and 98 were maintaining a policy which we said was right the right hon. Gentleman is at present maintaining a policy which he always said was wrong, and which he said was wrong certainly up to the time of the Dissolution in 1906. Therefore, I think that the defence advancd by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields was really not worthy of consideration. The right hon. Gentleman also said that all Chancellors of the Exchequer suspend Sinking Funds. All Chancellors of the Exchequer may very likely do wrong. I do not defend all Chancellors of the Exchequer, even if they are on my own side. I should be so bold as to say that occasionally, not very often, my right hon. Friend (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) may have done something with which I would not agree—I do not say he did anything wrong—and it by no means follows that it is a good argument to say that because Chancellors of the Exchequer always have done certain things it is therefore necessary they should always do them. Certainly it does not lie in the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to do that, as they are always saying how with the great Liberal party returned for so many years by an enormous majority all the old-fashioned anomalies and abuses, which had crept in in the days of old Tories like myself, should vanish from the scene and everything in future would be managed in the best possible way, in the best interests of everyone. That is exactly what you are not doing at present, because the suspension of the Sinking Fund is a serious cause for depreciation in public funds. I understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that in the years 1897, '98, and '99, £9,000,000 which ought to have gone to the Sinking Fund were taken by Lord St. Aldwyn for other purposes. He went on to say that that was 75 per cent, of the whole amount which should have gone to the Sinking Fund, whereas in his case the proportion taken was much smaller. But the percentage depends on the amount of the Sinking Fund and the Old Sinking Fund, as everyone in this House knows, varies with the amount which is unspent, and, therefore, if you have a bad Budget your amount of Sinking Fund is much greater. The right hon. Gentleman badly Budgeted for the last three or four years. The consequence is that the amount at his disposal has been very much greater than the amount at the disposal of Lord St. Aldwyn. Therefore, it is no credit to the right hon. Gentleman to say that the proportion was, greater, because it was only greater because the budgeting was worse.
That is a proposition which would puzzle even the ingenuity of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I was not here at the time my right hon. Friend (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) addressed the Committee, but I am almost certain that he would say that the State liabilities are very much greater now than they were in 1897–8. I presume he said so, but the fact is patent to everyone who has ever studied finance. The old age pensions, whether right or wrong, have added a sum equal to £400,000,000 capital to the National Debt. The fact remains that that £400,000,000 added to the National Debt does not appear in the financial statements which are given by the Treasury, and, therefore, it is far more necessary now than in the past to endeavour to reduce the Debt. There is one point on which I feel rather strongly, and which I do not think is thoroughly understood by hon. Gentlemen opposite and, possibly, on this side of the House—I refer to the price of Consols, which is of very much greater importance to the country than theyappear to think, or than is thought by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Russell Bea), who said, t-It is good for somebody who wants to buy Consols." That would be correct if Consols were at 50, and still more correct if at 25; but there are enormous institutions in this country which have invested large sums in gilt-edged securities, and any fall in those securities affects them. Institutions like the Yorkshire Penny Bank lost very large sums of money, one bank having to close its doors, while others were saved by the intervention of other banks, the assistance being needed owing to their money having been put into gilt-edged securities. An enormous number of institutions all over the country have put their reserve funds into Consols, many with the expectation that the money would be always available when required, and the fall in Consols is now vitally injuring those various institutions. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will bear out what I say.
10.0 P.M.
I would rather myself devote the discussion to what is to be done and to let bygones be bygones. I would like hon. Members opposite to admit that this question of the fall in Consols wants dealing with. Let us admit, for the sake of argument, that everybody on this side of the House, with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Austen Chamberlain) were wrong when they were in power. That does not alter the responsibility of hon. Members who .are in power now, and they should take steps to see that the national credit is maintained. From their own point of view if they want to get out the balance of the Irish Land Loan, which means a sum of £100,000,000, it is absolutely necessary that the credit of the country should be maintained, or you will not be able to borrow the money. Therefore I would rather like to see the Committee consider what steps are to be taken in order to meet what nobody in his sane moments will deny is; an unfortunate depreciation in the credit of this country. The first thing it should have in view is to limit borrowing, and the next thing is to see that every possible sum that can be given to the redemption of debt should be so given, and that the country should understand first of all that the fixed sum of £28,000,000 which was devoted to the Sinking Fund by Sir Stafford Northcote in 1876 should be ear-marked, and should not be at the disposal of any Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether on those benches or on these benches. May I add that if something of that sort were done there would be at once, or, at any rate within a given period, an advance in the credit of the country, and I should be very glad if hon. and right hon. Members opposite would approach the subject with some consideration like that. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he had redeemed more debt than was redeemed by Sir Stafford Northcote. Let me point out the facts. I find that the National Debt stood at a higher figure by £73,000,000 in 1906 than in 1911. I have not got the figures for 1912. I suppose all hon. Members know exactly what the New Sinking Fund is. It was a sum of £28,000,000, which was devoted, first of all, to the payment of interest, and then the balance after the payment of interest was to go to the reduction of the debt. At that time the interest on Consols was 3 per cent., and it is now 2½ per cent. Therefore the amount for interest was much greater than it is now, and consequently the amount of payment for the redemption of debt was less than it is now. But that has nothing to do with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If one wanted to make party capital out of it one would say that it was Lord Goschen who reduced the interest on the National Debt. It has nothing to do with the Chancellor of the Exchequer or with my right hon. Friend the Member for East Worcestershire. Therefore I do not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer quite appreciates the situation. I do hope that the Committee will really take into consideration this most important matter, instead of endeavouring to show that no depreciation has taken place, which they cannot possibly do, and instead of endeavouring to prove that the funds of other countries have suffered similarly, because they have not, or how it arose, which does not very much matter. It has arisen, and it is the duty of the House of Commons to endeavour to correct an error once that error has been made; and if hon. Gentlemen opposite will endeavour to assist us in that way, I believe that all Members on this side of the House would be prepared to meet them. With regard to investment by people in Consols, the Chancellor of the Exchequer alluded to the French Rentes. It is, of course, quite true that the French peasants and the poorer classes do invest very largely in French Rentes. There is no reason why they should not do the same here in England—that is to say, the machinery would permit of their doing so.
Of course, it is quite true that a member of the working classes in this country usually does not know a stock broker or banker, and he would have to conduct his transactions through one or the other; but there is the Post Office, which undertakes the selling of small amounts of Consols to the investors and the purchasing of those amounts through the Government brokers. Therefore that argument falls to the ground. The real reason is the difference in the habits of the people. I spent some time in a financial house in Paris, so that I have some little knowledge on this particular point. The French peasant when he saves money invests it. That does not occur to the English workman, who, as far as my knowledge goes, puts his savings into a house or cottage or property of that description. I think it would be better for him if he put it in stocks and shares at the present moment. I should myself very much like to see an extension of investment by the poorer classes in the funds of their own country. The first thing that .the Chancellor of the Exchequer has got to do to secure that is to convince them that their capital money invested will not depreciate. I happened to know some working men who did invest one or two hundred pounds in Consols, and who came to me and said that they would never do so again, because they bought them at 105, or whatever the pries may have been, and when they wanted the money to buy a house they had to take ninety, and they thought they would get
I do not rise to deal with the very able statement which has been addressed to us by the hon. Baronet, and with a good deal of which I agree, and all of which was very well informed. There is only one observation I should like to make with regard to the depreciation in Consols. The hon. Baronet rather seemed to imply with a number of other critics on that side that mine was the responsibility entirely. In 1899 I think the price ran to 114, and in 1905 they were down to 89. Thus there was a drop of twenty-five points, and yet he talks about the working men having invested their money in Consols expecting to get a stable security. I remember a working class organisation investing considerable sums of money in 1899 at the price of 114, and in three years they were down twenty-five points. [An HON. MEMBER: "Reduction of interest."] Everybody knew in 1899 that in a year or two the interest would be down from 2¾ to 2½ per cent., and therefore they were really buying them at the 2¾ per cent, for a couple of years with the knowledge that they would be down to 2½ per cent, in a short time. They were down, twenty-five points. [An HON. MEMBER: "After the war."] There was no war in 1905. Since then there has been a drop of eleven points, so that the responsibility as to twenty-five points is that of right hon. Gentlemen opposite, if Governments are responsible at all, and I do not say they are, and our responsibility, or rather the responsibility during the last six years, has only been to the extent of eleven points. That is not what I got up to deal with.
I got up to answer very specific questions put me by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain). He asked me two questions—one with regard to the Land Taxes, and, as that involves a legal question, I would rather, if he does not mind, that my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General should reply to it. I will confine myself to the very specific question with regard to the £6,500,000 surplus. With regard to that, I thought I made it fairly clear in my Budget statement as to what had prompted the Government to take this unusual course. One reason was that there was great uncertainty, owing to the labour trouble at that time, as to what the effect would be on the revenue. That has by no means been solved, and if anyone will look at the accounts of the first week or fortnight they will find that the effects will be very serious indeed upon the revenue in the Excise and Customs. What the effect will be on the Income Tax and the Death Duties and other sources of revenue we cannot possibly tell; but that is a matter of uncertainty up to the present moment. The second reason was the fact that we were taking over this year a. liability which was incurred last year in respect of the Admiralty.: The right hon. Gentleman very properly observed in his reply to my Budget statement that that was only a liability of about £600,000, and that therefore that did not account for the whole of the £6,500,000. What primarily induced us to take this step was the uncertainty with regard to the liability that we might have to incur in respect of the Navy. It is very difficult to dwell upon this matter without doing more harm than good. Therefore I hope the House will excuse me if I will not go very far, and that the right hon. Gentleman will not press this very much further. One thing is clear. My right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty made it perfectly clear that his Estimates were based on the assumption that the programmes of other countries would be the kind of programmes known for years. He also made it clear that if those programmes were altered he must come to the House to ask for further powers, and that it might have a serious effect on our own programme, and that, in fact, it would have on our own programme. As the right hon. Gentleman opposite and his Friends know, we do not know what the position is even now, and I do not know what the additional liability will be; but whatever it is we shall have to face it.
It is perfectly clear, if there is an additional liability incurred, and I quite understand it is not a liability meant for this, year, we certainly do not want to borrow to meet it, and if it is possible to avoid fresh taxation it is desirable we should not impose fresh taxes if we have at our disposal a fund on which we can draw. What I say to the Committee at this stage is this. It is quite obvious the Government cannot decide this without coming to the House of Commons, and without coming to the House of Commons in two separate forms. If the Government come to the conclusion on the facts as they finally shape themselves that it is necessary to incur fresh liability, the sanction of the House of Commons must be secured for that purpose. Then there is a second way. This is purely a preliminary step which it is necessary to take in order to enable us to introduce the Bill, and the question would have to be finally decided afterwards. There will be the stage of Second Reading, although I agree it would be quite impossible to decide points of detail of this kind on the Second Reading, but when you come to Committee this specific point will be raised, must be raised, and by that time the House of Commons will be fully in possession of the facts and so will the Government. We do not know whether we shall have to incur fresh liabilities or not. We certainly do not know the extent of those liabilities. We do not know whether the whole or only a portion of this money will be absorbed. For the moment I ask the Committee to allow the Government to take this step to enable us to bring in the Bill in this form. It does not finally commit the House of Commons. If events develop, and it is found that the Government's liabilities have taken a more specific form, the House of Commons will be in full possession of the facts; they will know the policy of the Government; they will know whether the Government propose to incur fresh liabilities, and upon what ground they propose to incur them. By that time we shall know what our proposals are and what we shall do with the whole of the amount at our disposal or with the balance. At present, we have no clear, definite idea whether the whole or what amount will be required. Therefore, I hope the House, by sanctioning this Resolution, will enable us to introduce the Bill in this form, on the clear and definite understanding that no proposals will be made by the Government without receiving the sanction of the House of Commons, and without their policy being carried on two separate occasions—first, in the form of a proposal for the expenditure of the money, and, secondly, in the form of a Clause in the Bill, which will come under discussion later, perhaps considerably later, in the Session.
I beg to move to add at the end of the Question the words "in so far as the Fund may be required to defray the charge of any Supplemental Navy Votes that may come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1913, or to make good any deficiency that may arise between the revenue of the said year and the ordinary Votes that may come in course of payment therein."
The right hon. Gentleman has made a very serious and important statement which everyone who considers the problem either of national finance or of national defence will do well to weigh; but he has not answered the specific questions put to him by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Austen Chamberlain). Let me recall the circumstances under which the right hon. Gentleman made his present proposal. He spoke of the large surplus that had been realised on the working of the year, and he asked the Committee to consider how it should be disposed of. He admitted that under ordinary circumstances the surplus should go to the reduction of debt, but that there might be and there had been circumstances which absolved the Government from that obligation. He cited the action of Lord St. Aldwyn in 1896. I am not at all disposed to quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman on that account. I have not been orthodox on this particular point of surrendering balances. Years ago I wrote a memorandum pleading for a certain laxity, which was opposed by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), and, I believe incurred the ill-will of Lord St. Aldwyn.
The whole point is whether you can show good cause, and that is the point to which the right hon. Gentleman addressed himself. He said that he proposed to relax the usual rule on two grounds. The first was that owing to the industrial trouble there might be a realised deficit. Under the peculiar circumstances of this year, I admit that that is a good ground. The other was a matter which I agree should not be gone into too closely, namely, that there might be occasion for an extended Naval Programme. This is the question I want to put. If there should not be a realised deficit, if there should not be need for an expansion of the Naval Programme, or if there should be only a slight realised deficit absorbing but a small part of the £6,500,000, Or if there should be required only a small addition to the Naval Estimates, will the right hon. Gentleman pledge himself that either the whole or the balance, as the case may be, of this sum shall go to the reduction of debt? Really the whole point of his argument was that on those two grounds—he quoted no other—a realised deficiency, and possible extraordinary Navy Estimates, that it might be his duty to suggest to the House of Commons that we should trench upon the ordinary rule. The corollary to that, I say, is that if those circumstances do not arise, or if they only partially arise, so that a large balance is left, that the whole of that shall fall into the Sinking Fund in the ordinary course. I suggest that that is the inevitable and logical conclusion from the right hon. Gentleman's argument. I think it should be embodied in the Resolution. I know that Chancellors of the Exchequer have difficulties, that great pressure is put upon them, and that they may easily be induced by that pressure, which is very difficult to withstand, to give fresh Grants to one body or another. I do think that it is not fair to put a Chancellor of the Exchequer in a position like this, that a large sum of money should be "held up," so that everybody and every interest concerned may press him to divert that from its ordinary and legal course. I want to put the right hon. Gentleman out of the possibility of being in that position. I think it should be affirmed by the House, therefore I beg to move my Amendment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was good enough to say that he rose for the purpose of answering a specific question that I put to him in regard to the Sinking Fund. He really has not answered it. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to say at this stage what were the results of his inquiry into the exceptional Vote for the Navy, what were the plans of the First Lord of the Admiralty, and how much money would be required for that purpose? I asked what were the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the six and a-half millions which he proposes to "hold up"? We are entitled to a plain answer. No foreign difficulty, no diplomatic embarrassment, is raised by giving a plain answer. Does he intend, as proposed in the Amendment, that this six and a-half millions should only be diverted from the repayment of debt for the two purposes, or for one or other of the two, that have been mentioned? Does he, on the other hand, ask the House to allow him to hold up the money to be used in any way, and for any purpose, that he and the House may think fit between now and 31st March? That is the question to which we want an answer. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is prepared to say here and now, "I only desire to use the money so far as it may be required for the purposes I have already explained to the House," and which are covered by the Amendment of my hon. Friend, I shall not offer any further opposition to this particular proposal; but if, on the contrary, he intends to reserve to himself the power any time between now and 31st March or some time in April or May next to come down to the House and propose to draw against this £6,500,000 for any conceivable purpose that may commend, itself to him and a majority of the House, then I say that is contrary to every fiscal principle that ever prevailed in this House; it strikes at the real control of the House over finance, and it sets the very worst precedent for the future. I do beg the right hon. Gentleman, if he can, to give an answer. It will not delay the proceedings at all. Will he bind himself only to use the money for the two purposes which he alleges as a justification for holding it up, and will he bind himself to put back to the Sinking Fund, any portion of the £6,500,000 not required for that or does he intend to obtain full latitude to do what he likes with it?
The right hon. Gentleman has asked two questions. He has asked me first of all whether I will bind the Government not to apply any portion of this money to any purpose except the two purposes indicated in the Amendment. It is also asked in that Amendment that the Government and the House should bind themselves not to use this money for any purpose except expenditure incurred within the current year. That is obviously perfectly worthless, even from the point of view of the Navy. Surely the right hon. Gentleman cannot have considered what the Amendment means. Supposing there is the kind of emergency the right hon. Gentleman has in his mind, and that it is necessary for us to increase our expenditure, it can only be a commitment this year, for you cannot possibly spend this £6,500,000 this year. The right hon. Gentleman has been at the Admiralty as well as the Exchequer. If the right hon. Gentleman means to say that he is opposed to the money being spent for any other purposes, even if there is a balance, and that he wants to bind the House of Commons and the Government at this stage, it cannot be done. Supposing the Amendment is carried, supposing I said I would not oppose that Amendment, does the right hon. Gentleman really think that is binding the House of Commons not to spend this money for any other purpose? If the House before the Budget goes through comes to the conclusion—
If the right hon. Gentleman gives me the pledge I will take it.
Certainly! But, of course, that is a pledge the Government cannot give. I will give a pledge of what it proposes. The Government gives a pledge of what it proposes under conditions which at the moment are before it, but will the right hon. Gentleman say that when introducing a Budget he is going to give a definite pledge that whatever the conditions are he is not going to alter that Budget or vote any extra money for any other purpose—
That is not the pledge at all!
Or devote any other money to any other purpose—
I beg pardon for interrupting again. I want that we should clearly understand each other. I ask for neither of these pledges; I ask for a specific pledge as regards the £6,500,000. I asked if you do not require this money for the Navy, or to meet an extraordinary deficit, such as the right hon. Gentleman spoke of, in the case of the present year, this money should go back to its proper purpose of paying off debt. That is the only pledge I ask for. That is not preventing the Government from proposing any new expenditure, but if they propose it they must meet it in the ordinary way.
That is exactly what I say. If the Government have any increased expenditure owing to something which at the present moment they may not contemplate, whatever it is the Government cannot draw upon any part of this £6,500,000. I certainly decline to give any such pledge. That the Government in the month of April should pledge itself as to what expenditure it will incur in the course of the year—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no"]—that is really what it means. [Hon. Members: "No."] Then I should like to know what it does mean. The right hon. Gentleman says it means one of two things: either we are to pledge ourselves not to incur increased expenditure on anything—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—it either means that the right hon. Gentleman is asking us to pledge ourselves not to incur increased expenditure on anything but the Navy, or, if there is a deficiency in our accounts owing to that increased expenditure we should not take it out of the £6,500,000;.
What I am offering, if I may put it that way, is that the Government should have quite exceptional leave over this sum—quite exceptional and unprecedented—for the purposes of the Navy, or for the purpose of any unforeseen deficiency in revenue owing to the recent industrial dispute, and as regards any other expenditure they should treat it as they themselves and their predecessors in every previous year have treated any additional expenditure proposed after the 1st of April.
I know what the right hon. Gentleman and his Friends want. No expenditure can be incurred without the sanction of the House. Not only that, but before the House parts with this £6,500,000 it will have full cognisance of the position. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise what his Amendment means? It means that whatever the contingency, even from his own point of view, we should spend this money upon the Navy and nothing else unless there is a deficiency due to industrial unrest. We could not spend it on the Navy under the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment. After all, during the present year no First Lord of the Admiralty, whatever his zeal might be for expenditure, could possibly spend this £6,500,000 in one year. I thought that was common ground. The utmost you could do with the present year would be a commitment in respect of increased construction.
Wil the right hon. Gentleman limit it to that?
That is not the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, and when he makes any sort of definite proposal I will consider it. I object at this stage, when we are simply taking an empowering Resolution to enable us to bring in a Bill, to practically convert that Resolution, which is the basis of the Bill, into a Bill itself. You say we should spend the money on this, and not upon the other thing; you may spend it on the Navy, and if there is any social emergency you may not spend it upon that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I can see the fear of hon. Gentlemen. They are very much afraid we should give any part of this to benefit any section of the community in this country. Practically they say that if, owing to the great prosperity of the country, we get £6,500,000, you must take very good care by a Resolution of this House that the people are not to share in that prosperity. Those are proposals of the Government, and I say at this stage no Government has ever been asked—[An HON. MEMBER: "Oh, yes."] The hon. Gentleman is not a very old Member. I have been here three times as long as he has, and I have seen Resolutions many times with regard to surpluses, three or four times, when the Unionist Government were in office, which might have been altered at any stage of the Budget.
Never under a Unionist Government has the right hon. Gentleman seen a Resolution like this impounding the surplus without specifying the purposes for which it was impounded.
The right hon. Gentleman is speaking from memory. He must have a very good memory to remember all the Resolutions in those cases, but I should be very much surprised if all those Resolutions specifically stated how the surplus was to be applied and if there were all sorts of conditions in them. You undoubtedly had to get a Resolution of the House, but it was the Bill itself which indicated how the money was to be spent, and we never started our criticism upon it until we came to the Bill. We never moved a Resolution saying you must spend it on naval works or on military works. On the contrary, we criticised it in the usual form. To have a Resolution to say we must spend this money, and in the current year, upon the Navy is a perfectly ludicrous proposal.
I confess I heard the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with great regret, because I really do not think he realises—at any rate he has not explained to the Committee—what an immense departure this proposal of the Government really is from the whole of the finance which has prevailed in this country for a century, or, at any rate, since 1832. One of the fundamental principles of our-finance has been that we provide in each year for the expenses of each year. That is the fundamental principle; and, when the right hon. Gentleman says there is no new departure in this Resolution, he surely forgets what he himself has stated: as his intention. I quite agree there have been several occasions on which Chancellors of the Exchequer have taken money that would have gone to the Old Sinking Fund, but always stating exactly what they were going to do with it and binding themselves to do that with it. Never has any Chancellor of the Exchequer suggested he is entitled to take £6,000,000, or whatever the sum may be, to hold it up intending to do something with it which he declines to tell the House. That is entirely a new departure and a departure of" the greatest possible danger. I earnestly appeal to hon. Members opposite to consider what it means. It means this. The right hon. Gentleman, in his speech earlier in the evening, said he had always been anxious for economy, but he had had no assistance from any Member of this House. He said the great difficulty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to enforce-economy. We all recognise that. The one security is that before the Chancellor of the Exchequer can propose an expenditure he must show the taxes and the source-from which he proposes to get the money to finance that expenditure. This is going to cut at the root of that wholesome principle. We are going to give him £5,000,000 or £6,000,000, which will not fair upon the taxpayer in any way directly. He will be enabled to use that by a mere Resolution of this House at any time for any purpose he may think good—a Resolution, it may be, passed under the guillotine and not even discussed. We cannot discuss it on the Appropriation Bill. The control of this House by the Appropriation Bill is practically nothing. You can only vote against the Second Readings which means throwing the whole of the finance of the country into confusion.
You cannot have an Amendment in detail on the Appropriation Bill. Therefore your only control is a Vote on the Estimates. The result is that you are putting yourselves absolutely in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to this six million pounds. And now we learn from him that he does not intend it even to apply to this year. He proposes to hold this money up for next year, because, if this Amendment of my hon. Friend is carried, it imposes upon him the necessity of spending it in this year. That is, he proposes to spend it next year. That is to say, that the Budget of next year is to be falsified, according to our principle, because he will have this sum of money which will not depend upon the taxation raised in that year. I think this is a matter of the utmost importance. I confess that I always felt that the appeal for the Navy has been an inadequate one. After all, what does holding this sum of six millions mean? It means that we are going in fact to borrow this six millions. If it was not applied to this purpose it would be applied to capital purposes. We are taking it away from capital purposes, and that is practically to borrow it. If it is right to borrow it, and I am far from saying it is or is not, if it is necessary to borrow it for a great emergency, why should we not frankly and honestly do so when the emergency arises? Why should not the Chancellor of the Exchequer come to us and say, "We want a million or six millions for the Navy this year to meet a great national emergency." I do not think there are twenty men in the House who would resist such an appeal for the Government of the day. But to obtain the money in this way is really to go down to the very root of the financial control of this House and of the electorate. I earnestly appeal to Members not to allow this Motion to pass in this form, and to express very strongly their disapproval of this entirely novel departure in the national finances by inserting this Amendment, which will, to some extent at any rate, control the unfettered control of the Government in this matter.
I am sorry to intervene again, but as I took the initiative upon this subject I may be allowed to make a few remarks. The Chancellor of the Exchequer bas appealed to this Committee, and he said in his speech—I made a note of his words—that there was nothing definite before the House. To ask us really, either for the Navy or for social reform, to support this Resolution, which gives the Government of the day the call upon this six millions for something which is, on his own confession, indefinite, is not in accordance with sound sense or sound finance. I am sure we will make this protest with reluctance, but there is a principle involved. As the hon. Member who has just sat down has said, if it was a case of a great emergency or a national disaster, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer came down to this House, as Mr. Gladstone did, if my memory serves me right, at the time of the Penj-deh crisis, and in twenty-four hours got a credit of £10,000,000, he would get it for a similar purpose. But we have nothing definite before us; it is entirely vague, and it seems to me that Members, without any respect to party, cannot see their way to support-this Resolution.
The right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) has made a statement which is hardly worthy of him. He imputed to us on this side of the House that our object in the present position was to prevent any portion of this money being used for any purpose for the people of the community. He will remember perfectly well making that statement. Have the people no interest in the maintenance of our Navy, and have we not agreed most readily to grant everything he asks for as regards the Navy? My right hon. Friend has been perfectly willing, in addition, to make the same Grant in respect of any other deficits that may arise in regard to the purposes he has already explained. I rise for the purose of pointing to another and a different aspect of this question, which is of infinitely more importance. It arises directly from the statement the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made in the last few moments. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer is right in his present position, what it means is neither more nor less than that if there had been no prospective demand for an increase of the Navy, if there had been no fear or apprehension of deficits of any description that had to be met, he would have been perfectly justified in upholding this money. That is the exact position of the right hon. Gentleman, and I defy him to point, in the history of all the Chancellors of the Exchequers of this country, to any other but himself who has ever adopted such a position.
If the Amendment of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. James Hope) comes to be a substantive Resolution, I shall move to omit the last portion of it, for this reason: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech, told us that the First Lord of the Admiralty had given us a grave national warning that money might be required for a particular national purpose, a national purpose which affects every class and every individual in this House. It is not a question of panem et circenses, relating to this or that class, because a great national war affects every class, and the poorest class more than anybody else. A great scare affects the smaller people much more than it does the bigger people, therefore the purposes for which the First Lord of the Admiralty foreshadowed his demand, and for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made this demand, will affect every class in the community. Moreover, if it came to a great national emergency, that would put off for a year or two any social scheme which any party might have in view, and it would affect the social schemes which this House or the country has in view. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made this demand: that if the First Lord of the Admiralty came down and said that the schemes of other nations demanded a large expenditure on our part, he thought we might very well take this part of the Sinking Fund for that purpose. The Sinking Fund, as it was established, is a component part of the national reserve, and if the national reserve also consists in an adequate defence of the country, as it does, it is not unnatural that we should apply part of the Sinking Fund to strengthening the national reserves. What is the logical corollary of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's demand? It is that if the First Lord of the Admiralty comes down and tells us before 31st March, 1913, that foreign affairs have so altered that it is necessary to order a very large naval programme, the Chancellor of the Exchequer should say to him, "Here is £6,500,000 for that purpose." It is quite true we cannot spend it before 31st March, 1913, and no one imagines for a moment that we can expend £6,500,000 before 31st March, 1913. We can say, "Here is a great national emergency which requires us to build so many ironclads at £1,000,000 or £1,500,000 apiece, we will allocate the whole of this £6,500,000 to those four or six ironclads, and they shall be held up to the Exchequer balances to pay for that particular naval programme." That would be a perfectly legitimate way of using the £6,500,000. That is, I think, the way in which the country read the Chancellor of the Exchequer's speech. That is the way in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his Budget speech when he told the country that he was asking for £6,500,000 to satisfy the demands of the First Lord of the Admiralty in his Glasgow speech and nothing else. If the First Lord of the Admiralty tells us that foreign countries are building so many more ironclads that we want four more, and the £6,500,000 is earmarked for those special ironclads, that is meeting a special national emergency out of the national reserve, and is using the Sinking Fund for the other form of National Reserve, namely, a strong Navy. I acknowledge that that is not an unreasonable demand to make, and, if that is so, common honesty towards the nation demands that the Government shall say that is what they mean and nothing else.
But the Government are going beyond that. They are talking of a possible deficit in consequence of industrial disquiet in the last financial year. That, to my mind, is a breaking of all canons of proper finance because how can you tell that there will not be more industrial troubles this year? How can you tell that the railway strike, of which we have heard murmurs, is coming off or not? There are great threatened troubles among the seamen, and if you are going to make every industrial trouble a reason for raiding the Sinking Fund, where are you going to stop? Are you going to stop for any other cause than industrial trouble? Supposing you have a bad barley harvest all over the world and the price of malt is affected, and everyone knows how the price of malt affects the Exchequer. Are you going to make that an excuse for raiding the Sinking Fund? The Sinking Fund is the sheet anchor of all our national finance. It is that on which the whole appropriation and the whole of our finance is based. Many a Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a Budget statement with the almost certainty that the next Chancellor would have a deficit, but we never before heard a Chancellor propose to raid the Sinking Fund to provide for a future deficit. We have always gone upon the rule that every year ought to pay for itself. The taxes of the year ought to pay for the needs of the year, whatever they are, and if, through industrial troubles, we get a deficit next year the working men must help to pay for the deficit they have helped to create by additional taxes, and you must bring home to every class, as far as you can, that financial evil-doing always comes home, just as all evil-doing does to the man or the nation or the class that practices it. I (understand the Amendment will be moved without the last part. I quite understand the request which the Chancellor made in his Budget speech, a request which everyone read as this, that the £6,500,000 is going to be ear-marked for a special demand on the part of the First Lord of the Admiralty for a special need during the present year. That will he granted directly. Any further demand, if the House has any regard whatever to financial consistency or for the well-being of the country, I hope we shall strongly resist.
As I understand, the proposition now before the Committee is that if this £6,500,000 is withheld from the Sinking Fund, then we ought to earmark it for Naval purposes for the current year. That is a proposition with which we will not associate ourselves. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Certainly not. [AN HON. MEMBER: " There is an Amendment."] If the hon. Gentleman had been listening to the eloquent speech we have just heard he would know that that is the only proposition before the Committee. I understand that the Mover of the Amendment is satisfied, and that he is withdrawing the alternative that any possible deficit arising out of industrial troubles shall not be taken from the six and a-half millions. If that is to be carried into effect, it is only the Navy that is to be benefited by this proposition. So far as we are concerned, we will not accede to the proposition. We are not in favour of an inflated Navy, and we will not support any proposition to make it more inflated. We believe that if that Amendment is carried it will increase extravagance and give hon. Gentlemen opposite and a party in the country fresh opportunities for creating absurd panics. There is not the slightest doubt about it. If the six and a-half millions is to be withheld from the Sinking Fund and earmarked for possible expenditure on the Navy, I think we will a few months later discover some more German scare ships coming in the North Sea, and pressure will be brought to bear on the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to spend the whole of this money on fresh extravagance and useless "Dreadnoughts " and other engines of naval warfare. Moreover, it is an exceedingly bad precedent for this House to appear before the Continent as having a very considerable sum in reserve. It is just that sort of thing that creates suspicion. If you want a naval programme, let us have it. Let us know exactly what we want, what increase we want, and how much is to be laid down, so that everybody will know. But to withhold this £6,500,000 as a means of increasing the programme is the way to make Germany build more and to upset confidence in this country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has succeeded in avoiding any pledge to the Committee, and therefore the Amendment is necessary. The right hon. Gentleman justified the holding up of this £6,500,000 on two grounds. He said there were two contingencies. The first was a strike. He asked what is the second contingency. It was the possibility referred to by his right hon. Friend the First Lord. He came down and justified this extraordinary procedure by saying that it was for one or two purposes that the sum might be wanted. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment gives both of the contingencies, but the right hon. Gentleman is not content to accept them. He has now shifted his ground, and I suspect, from the presence of the Postmaster-General, that Irish finance has something to do with it.
And, it being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded to interrupt the business, whereupon
rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 183; Noes, 129.
Division No. 80.] AYES. [11.0 p.m. Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Barnes, George N. Brunner, J. F. L. Acland, Francis Dyke Barran, Sir J. (Hawick) Bryce, J. Annan Alden, Percy Beale, W. P. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) Beck, Arthur Cecil Carr-Gomm, H. W. Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Chapple, Dr. W. A. Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Boland, John Plus Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Booth, Frederick Handel Clough, William Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Brocklehurst, W. B. Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Condon, Thomas Joseph Jones, W. S. Glyn-(T. H'mts, Stepney) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Joyce, Michael Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Keating, M. Reddy, Michael Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Kellaway, Frederick George Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Crooks, William Kelly, Edward Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Crumley, Patrick King, J. Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Lamb, Ernest Henry Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Robertson, sir G. Scott (Bradford) Dawes, J. A. Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Delany, William Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm th) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Denman, Hon. R. D. Levy, Sir Maurice Roe, Sir Thomas Devlin, Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Rose, Sir Charles Day Doris, W. Lundon, T. Rowlands, James Duffy, William J. Lyell, Charles Henry Rowntree, Arnold Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of MacGhee, Richard Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Macpherson, James Ian Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Essex, Richard Walter MacVeagh, Jeremiah Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Esslemont, George Birnie M'Callum, John M. Scanlan, Thomas Falconer, J. McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Seely, Rt. Hon. Col. J. E. B. Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) Sheehy, David Ffrench, Peter M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) Shortt, Edward Fitzgibbon, John Martin, Joseph Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Flavin, Michael Joseph Mason, David M. (Coventry) Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Masterman, C. F. G. Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Gladstone, W. G. C. Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Spicer, Sir Albert Glanville, H. J. Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Sutherland, J. E. Goldstone, Frank Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz Thomas, J. H. (Derby) Greig, Col. J. W. Montagu, Hon. E. S. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Morgan, George Hay Toulmin, Sir George Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Morrell, Philip Verney, Sir Harry Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trnt) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Munro, R. Wardle, George J. Hackett, J. Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. Waring, Walter Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Nannetti, Joseph P. Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Neilson, Francis Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) j Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Nolan, Joseph Whitehouse, John Howard Hayward, Evan Norton, Capt. Cecil W. Whyte, A. F. Helme, Norval Watson O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Williamson, sir A. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) Henry, Sir Charles Ogden, Fred Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Higham, John Sharp O'Malley, William Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Parker, James (Halifax) Winfrey, Richard Hodge, John Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) Hogge, James Myles Pointer, Joseph Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) Holmes, Daniel Turner Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Young, William (Perth, East) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Power, Patrick Joseph Yoxall, Sir James Henry Hughes, S. L. Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Pringle, William M. R. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Radford, G. H.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cassel, Felix Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Aitken, Sir William Max Cator, John Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Cautley, Henry Strother Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Archer-Shee, Major M. Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Ashley, Wilfrid W. Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Baird, J. L. Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Howins William Albert Samuel Baldwin, Stanley Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hills, John Waller (Durham) Banbury, Sir Frederick George Clive, Captain Percy Archer Hill-Wood, Samuel Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Courthope. G Loyd Hohler, G. F. Barnston, H. Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Croft, H. P. Horner, A. L. Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Houston, Robert Paterson Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Denniss, E. R. B. Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) Bennett-Goldney, Francis Doughty, Sir George Ingleby, Holcombe Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Eyres-Monsell, B. M. Joynson-Hicks, William Beresford, Lord C. Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Bigland, Alfred Fell, Arthur Kimber, Sir Henry Bird, A. Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Forster, Henry William Lewisham, Viscount Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) Gastrell, Major W. H. Lloyd, George Ambrose Bridgeman, W. Clive Gibbs, G. A. Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Bull, Sir William James Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K. Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Burdett-Coutts, W. Goldsmith, Frank Macmaster, Donald Burn, Col. C. R. Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Butcher, J. G. Grant, J. A. Magnus, Sir Philip Byles, Sir William Pollard Greene, Walter Raymond Malcolm, Ian Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Guinness, Hon. Rupert Essex, S.E.) Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Mount, William Arthur Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesail) Tobin, Alfred Aspinall Neville, Reginald J. N. Rolleston, Sir John Tullibardine, Marquess of Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Ronaldshay, Earl of Walker, Colonel William Hall Nield, Herbert Sanders, Robert A. Weigali, Captain A. G. Norton-Griffiths, J. Sanderson, Lancelot Wheler, Granville C. H. O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.) Spear, Sir John Ward White, Major G. D. (Lancs., South port) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Stanier, Beville Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Pease, Herbrt Pike (Darlington) Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) Wolmer, Viscount Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) Starkey, John Ralph Worthington-Evans, L. Peel, Hon. William R. W. (Taunton) Stewart, Gershom Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Perkins, Walter Frank Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Peto, Basil Edward Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) Younger, Sir George Pollock, Ernest Murray Talbot, Lord Edmund Pretyman, E. G. Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Harmood-Banner and Earl Winterton. Quilter, Sir William Eley C. Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Harmood-Banner and Earl Winterton.
Question put accordingly, "That the words 'in so far as the Fund may be required to defray the charge of any Supplemental Navy Votes that may come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1913, and to make good any
deficiency that may arise between the Revenue and the said year and the ordinary Votes that may come in the course of payment therein, be there added."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 130; Noes, 183.
Division No. 81.] AYES. [11.10 p.m. Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Doughty, Sir George Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Aitken, Sir William Max Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) Nield, Herbert Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Fell, Arthur Norton-Griffiths, J. Archer-Shee, Major Martin Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.) Ashley, Wilfrid W. Forster, Henry William Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Baird, John Lawrence Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge) Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Gibbs, George Abraham Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) Baldwin, Stanley Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K. Perkins, Walter Frank Banbury, Sir Frederick George Goldsmith, Frank Peto, Basil Edward Banner, John S. Harmood- Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Pollock, Ernest Murray Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V, (Winchester) Grant, J. A. Pretyman, Ernest George Barnston, H. Greene, Walter Raymond Quilter, Sir William Eley C. Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc., E.) Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Rolleston, Sir John Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Ronaldshay, Earl of Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Sanders, Robert A. Bennett-Goldney, Francis Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Sanderson, Lancelot Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) Spear, Sir John Ward Beresford, Lord Charles Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Stanier, Beville Bigland, Alfred Hewins, William Albert Samuel Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) Bird, Alfred Hills, John Waller Starkey, John Ralph Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Hill-Wood, Samuel Stewart, Gershom Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Bridgeman, W. Clive Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Sykes, Mark (Hull, Cenrtal) Bull, Sir William James Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) Talbot, Lord Edmund Burdett-Coutts, William Horner, Andrew Long Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Burn, Colonel C. R. Houston, Robert Paterson Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Butcher, John George Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. (Bath) Tobin, Alfred Aspinall Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Ingleby, Holcombe Tullibardine, Marquess of Cassel, Felix Joynson-Hicks, William Walker, Colonel William Hall Cator, John Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Weigall, Capt. A. G. Cautley, Henry Strother Kimber, Sir Henry Wheler, Granville C. H. Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lewisham, Viscount Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Lloyd, George Ambrose Winterton, Earl Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Wolmer, Viscount Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r) Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Worthington-Evans, L. Chaplin, Rt Hon. Henry Macmaster, Donald Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Clive, Captain Percy Archer McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Courthope, George Loyd Magnus, Sir Philip Younger, Sir George Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Malcolm, Ian Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Martin, Joseph Croft, Henry Page Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Pike Please and Mr. Eyres-Mensell. Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Mount, William Arthur Denniss, E. R. B. Neville, Reginald J. N.
NOES. Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) Acland, Francis Dyke Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. B. Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Boland, John Pius Aiden, Percy Barnes, George N. Booth, Frederick Handel Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick) Brocklehurst, William B. Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Beale, William Phipson. Brunner, John F. L. Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Beck, Arthur Bryce, J. Annan Burns, Rt. Hon. John Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Byles, Sir William Pollard Hughes, Spencer Leigh Pringle, William M. R. Carr-Gomm, H. W. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus Radford, George Heynes Chapple, Dr. William Allen Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (S. Shields) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Clough, William Jones, W. S. Glyn-(T. H'mts, Stepney) Reddy, Michael Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Jowett, Frederick William Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Condon, Thomas Joseph Joyce, Michael Richardson, Albion (peckham) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Keating, Matthew Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Kellaway, Frederick George Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Crawshay-Wllliams, Eliot Kelly, Edward Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Crooks, William King, Joseph (Somerset, North) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Crumley, Patrick Lamb, Ernest Henry Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Roe, Sir Thomas Davies Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Rose, Sir Charles Day Dawes, J. A. Lawson, Sir W. (Cumbrid, Cockerm'th) Rowlands, James Delany, William Levy, Sir Maurice Rowntree, Arnold Denman, Hon. R. D. Lewis, John Herbert Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Devlin, Joseph Lundon, Thomas Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Doris, William Lyell, Charles Henry Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Duffy, William J. Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) McGhee, Richard Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Scanlan, Thomas Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Macpherson, James Ian Sheehy, David Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Seely, Colonel Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Essex, Richard Walter M'Callum, John M. Short, Edward Esslemont, George Birnie McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Falconer, J. M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Ffrench, Peter Mason, David M. (Coventry) Spicer, Sir Albert Fitzgibbon, John Masterman, C. F. G. Sutherland, John E. Flavin, Michael Joseph Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Thomas, James Henry (Derby) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Gladstone, W. G. C. Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz Toulmin, Sir George Glanville, H. J. Montagu, Hon. E. S. Verney, Sir Harry Goldstone, Frank Morgan, George Hay Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Greig, Colonel James William Morrell, Philip Wardle, George J. Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Waring, Walter Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Munro, Robert Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Nannetti, Joseph P. White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Hackett, J. Neilson, Francis Whitehouse, John Howard Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Whyte, A. F. Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Nolan, Joseph Williamson, Sir A. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Norton, Captain Cecil William Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Hayward, Evan O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Helme, Norval Watson Ogden, Fred Winfrey, Richard Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Malley, William Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) Henry, Sir Charles S. Parker, James (Halifax) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) Higham, John Sharp Phillips, John (Longford S.) Young, William (Perth, East) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Pointer, Joseph Yoxall, Sir James Henry Hodge, John Ponsonby, Arthur A. W H. Hogge, James Myles Power, Patrick Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. Holmes, Daniel Turner Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Main Question put. The Committee divided: Ayes, 178; Noes, 131.
Division No. 82.] AYES. [11.15 p.m. Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Chapple, Dr. W. A. Esslemont, George Birnie Acland, Francis Dyke Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Falconer, J. Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Clough, William Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Alden, Percy Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Ffrench, Peter Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) Condon, Thomas Joseph Fitzgibbon, John Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Flavin, Michael Joseph Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Gladstone, W. G. C. Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Crooks, William Glanville, H. J. Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Crumley, Patrick Goldstone, Frank Barnes, George N. Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Greig, Colonel J. W. Beale, W. p. Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol S.) Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Beck, Arthur Cecil Dawes, J. A. Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, S. George) Delany, William Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Denman, Hon. R. D. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Boland, John Pius Devlin, Joseph Hackett, J. Booth, Frederick Handel Doris, W. Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) Brocklehurst, W. B. Duffy, William J. Harvey, T E. (Leeds, W.) Brunner, John F. L. Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Bryce, J. Annan Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Burns, Rt. Hon. John Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Hayward, Evan Carr-Gomm, H. W. Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Helme, Norval Watson Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Essex, Richard Walter Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Henry, Sir Charles Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Higham, John Sharp Montagu, Hon. E. S. Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Morgan, George Hay Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Hodge, John Morrell, Philip Samuel, J. (Stockton) Hogge, James Myles Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel) Holmes, Daniel Turner Munro, R. Scanlan, Thomas Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Hughes, S. L. Nannetti, Joseph P. Sheehy, David Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus Neilson, Francis Shortt, Edward Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Nolan, Joseph Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Norton, Captain Cecil W. Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe) Jones, W. S. Glyn-(Stepney) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Jowett, F. W. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Spicer, Sir Albert Joyce, Michael Ogden, Fred Thomas, J. H. (Derby) Keating, M. O'Malley, William Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Kellaway, Frederick George Parker, James (Halifax) Toulmin, Sir George Kelly, Edward Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Verney, Sir Harry King, J. (Somerset, N.) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Lamb, Ernest Henry Power, Patrick Joseph Wardle, George J. Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Waring, Walter Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, N.) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Pringle, William M. R. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Levy, Sir Maurice Radford, G. H. White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Lewis, John Herbert Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Whitehouse, John Howard Lundon, T. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Whyte, A. F. (Perth) Lyell, Charles Henry Reddy, Michael Williamson, Sir A. Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Redmond, William (Clare) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) McGhee, Richard Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worc., N.) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Macpherson, James Ian Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Winfrey, Richard MacVeagh, Jeremiah Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) M'Callum, John M. Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) Roe, Sir Thomas Yoxall, Sir James Henry M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches, Crewe) Rose, Sir Charles Day Masterman, C. F. G. Rowlands, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Rowntree, Arnold Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.)
NOES. Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Aitken, Sir William Max Fell, Arthur Nield, Herbert Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) Archer-Shee, Major M. Forster, Henry William O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Ashley, W. W. Gastrell, Major W. H. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Baird, J. L. Gibbs, G. A. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K. Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge) Baldwin, Stanley Goldsmith, Frank Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Perkins, Walter F. Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Grant, J. A. Peto, Basil Edward Barnston, Harry Greene, W. R. Pollock, Ernest Murray Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Quilter, Sir William Eley C. Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hall. D. B. (Isle of Wight) Rolleston, Sir John Benn, Ion H. (Greenwich) Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Ronaldshay, Earl of Bennett-Goldney, Francis Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Sanders, Robert A. Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Sanderson, Lancelot Beresford, Lord C. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Spear, Sir John Ward Bigland, Alfred Hewins, William Albert Samuel Stanier, Beville Bird, A. Hills, John Waller Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Hill-Wood, Samuel Starkey, John R. Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) Hohler, G. Fitzroy Stewart, Gershom Bridgeman, William Clive Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Burdett-Coutts, W. Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford) Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) Burn, Colonel C. R. Horner, Andrew Long Talbot, Lord E. Butcher, John George Houston, Robert Paterson Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) Byles, Sir William Pollard Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) Terrell, H. (Gloucester) Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Ingleby, Holcombe Tobin, Alfred Aspinall Cassel, Felix Joynson-Hicks, William Tullibardine, Marquess of Cator, John Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Walker, Col. William Hall Cautley, H. S. Kimber, Sir Henry Weigall, Capt. A. G. Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) Wheler, Granville C. H. Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Lewisham, Viscount White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) Chaloner, Col, R. G. W. Lloyd, G. A. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r) Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Winterton, Earl Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Wolmer, Viscount Clive, Captain Percy Archer Macmaster, Donald Worthington-Evans, Laming Courthope, G. Loyd M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Magnus, Sir Philip Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Malcolm, Ian Younger, Sir George Croft, H. P. Martin, J. Dalziel, D. (Brixton) Mason, David M. (Coventry) Denniss, E. R. B. Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir W. Bull and Mr. Harmood Banner. Doughty, Sir George Mount, William Arthur Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Neville, Reginald J. N.
And, it being after Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his report to the House.
Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Tuesday); Committee to sit again tomorrow.
Light Railways [Special Advances]
Resolution reported, "That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to increase the amount which may be expended for the purpose of Special Advances under the Light Railways Act, 1896, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to continue and amend the Light Railways Act, 1896."
Resolution agreed to.
Adjourned at Twenty-nine minutes after Eleven o'clock.