House of Commons
Wednesday, June 26, 1912
Private Business
City of London (Various Powers) Bill [ Lords ],
Lea Bridge District Gas Company Bill [ Lords ],
Maidenhead Gas Company Bill [ Lords ],
North Middlesex Gas Company Bill [ Lords ],
Southgate and District Gas Company Bill [ Lords ],
Stockport Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
Rhymney Valley Sewerage Board Bill [ Lords ],
Read a second time, and committed.
Houghton-le-Spring District Gas Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Read a second time, and committed.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No, 7) Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 14) Bill,
Read a second time, and committed.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to:—
Windermere District Gas and Water Bill,
Great Eastern Railway Bill,
Annfield Plain and District Gas Bill.
Dublin and South Eastern Railway Bill, with Amendments.
Amendments to—Ystradfellte Water Bill [ Lords ], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Education under the Education Acts, 1870 to 1911, to enable the councils of the administrative counties of Kent, Montgomery, Somerset, Surrey, and the West Riding of Yorkshire, and the urban district of Rhondda to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts." [Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Kent, etc.) Bill [ Lords. ]
And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to incorporate the Trustees of the Nottingham Mechanics Institution; to extend the objects and powers of the Institution; and for other purposes." [Nottingham Mechanics Institution Bill [ Lords. ]
Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Kent, etc.) Bill [ lords ],
Read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 256.]
Nottingham Mechanics Institution Bill [ Lords ],
Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Merchant Seamen's Fund
Account presented of the Receipts and Expenditure under the Seamen's Fund Winding-up Act from 1st January to 31st December, 1911 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 177.]
TREATY SERIES (No. 15, 1912)
Copy presented of Agreement between the United Kingdom and Bolivia for the Exchange of Postal Money Orders. Signed at La Paz, 12th February, 1912 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Intermediate Education (Ireland)
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—
Account of Receipts and Expenditure for 1911, with Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 178.]
Oral Answers to Questions
Royal Navy
New Construction
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many armoured ships were under construction for the British and German Navies, respectively, on 31st March, 1902, and 31st March, 1912?
The figures asked for are as follows:—
Great Britain. 31st March, 1902 … … 31 31st March, 1912 … … 16 Germany. 31st March, 1902 … … 9 31st March, 1912 … … 12
Is the right hon. Gentleman including the "Benbow," the "Tiger," and the "Delhi"?
I do not know whether they are included or not. I think they certainly could be, as three or four months of constructive work has already been completed.
Armoured Ships Launched
asked the number of armoured ships launched for the British and for the German Navies from 1898 to 1902, inclusive; from 1903 to 1907, inclusive; and from and including 1908 to the present time?
The figures asked for are as follows:—
Great Britain. 1898–1902 … 38 1903–1907 … 35 1908 to the present time … 19 (Including 1 ship for the Australian Navy.) Germany. 1898–1902 … 12 1903–1907 … 13 1908 to the present time … 18
Is not the right hon. Gentleman depressed at the great loss of relative importance in these fighting ships?
No; I am not depressed at all, for I have not at all minimised the importance of the developments taking place elsewhere. It is obvious that a Power beginning to create a Navy will build at a greater rate than a Power which has already naval establishments in existence.
Mediterranean (Protection of British Interests)
asked whether the German Naval Law Amendment Act, 1912, provides for the maintenance in permanent full commission of twenty-nine battleships; whether, including the four battleships withdrawn from the Mediterranean, the total number of British battleships in full commission in home waters is 27; and whether, if the facts are as stated, the First Lord of the Admiralty can hold out hope of adequate naval protection being restored to British mercantile and territorial interests in and beyond the Mediterranean?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The figures, of course, refer to a future date, and four of the German ships will belong to the Reserve Squadron. The total number of British battleships in commission with full crews at the present date is correctly stated. I do not propose to anticipate the discussion of the Mediterranean situation.
asked whether the alteration in composition and base recently effected in respect of the Imperial naval force in Mediterranean waters was adopted after consultation and with the approval of general officers in command of the Mediterranean garrison; whether the Committee of Imperial Defence met to discuss such changes before they were carried out; and whether, in the event of the answer being in the affirmative, he is able to make any statement to the House?
:The arrangements as regards the naval force in Mediterranean waters are still under consideration. I can make no statement at present on the matter.
May I ask if the Committee of Naval Defence met at all before these changes were carried out?
I say the changes are still under consideration.
I say the changes have been carried out.
May we ask that nothing shall be done until the Committee on Imperial Defence has been consulted?
Undoubtedly the Committee of Imperial Defence will be consulted.
Destroyers (Standard of Strength)
asked whether, in view of the fact that the standard in strength of armoured ships as compared with Germany has been publicly laid down, he will also state what is the standard aimed at in the case of destroyers?
I do not propose to prescribe a precise standard in destroyer strength with reference to Germany. To explain it and argue it would involve detailed public examination of the characteristics and values of the various destroyer types in both countries which would not be desirable For some years past, however, we have laid down twenty destroyers to the twelve which Germany lays down annually.
Is it not true that during the present century we have laid down a little over 100—I think 107, and the Germans a little under 100–94; and is that a right proportion?
I have not verified the figures, but it may be true. We have forty-three destroyers now under construction.
Pilotage Bill
asked whether the Naval War Staff has been consulted as to the inclusion of Clause 19 in the Pilot age Bill, presented by the President of the Board of Trade, and ordered to be printed 22nd May, 1912?
The Admiralty have not been consulted on the specific point mentioned in the hon. Member's question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to deal with this matter before the Second Reading of the Pilotage Bill is even attempted?
The Admiralty were frequently consulted on the general question by the Board of Trade in 1903, but there is no record of the correspondence between the two Departments since that date. I will communicate with my right hon. Friend, but I do not anticipate that there will be any difference of opinion.
Were the Admiralty consulted in 1906, when the Merchant Shipping Bill was brought in, as to alien pilots?
The hon. Member must give notice of that question. The First Lord was not at the Admiralty in 1906.
Is it the case that the Admiralty has not been consulted by the Board of Trade in regard to this change of policy and change of the law under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1906?
I think we were represented on the Committee.
Am I to understand that the Admiralty were not directly consulted by the Board of Trade previous to bringing in this Bill, which alters the law as established by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1906?
The question I was asked by the hon. Member had reference to Clause 19 of the Pilotage Bill, and the reply is that the Admiralty were not consulted on the specific point mentioned. That is the answer. If further questions are to be asked, I hope I may have notice.
asked whether the Admiralty intend to use as pilots, in the event of pilots being required, such foreign masters or mates as may obtain British pilotage certificates under Clause 19 of the Pilotage Bill presented by the President of the Board of Trade on the 22nd May, 1912?
The answer is in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the working of this Bill will reduce the number of British pilots?
I doubt if I could answer a question of that kind, but I wilt consider the matter.
If the Admiralty requires pilots would they call in British pilots?
We do frequently call on them, and shall continue to do so.
I hope they will be there for you to continue to do so.
ManœUvres (Newspaper Correspondents)
asked whether newspaper correspondents will be allowed on board any of His Majesty's ships during the forthcoming manœuvres as in former years; and, if not, why not?
Newspaper correspondents will not be allowed on board His Majesty's ships during the actual period of manœuvres. It has, I think, been very generally accepted for several years past that it is not in the public interest to proclaim to the world at large the ideas which are embodied in plans of strategical and tactical exercises, and the manner in which they are executed by the officers concerned. I may perhaps add that I have every desire to encourage a real knowledge of the Navy on the part of the Press, and (through the Press) of the public, and special facilities are being offered to newspaper correspondents next month prior to the commencement of the manœuvres proper.
May I ask whether the Board of Admiralty have any reason to complain of indiscretion on the part of newspapers?
I have very great respect for the manner in which a great many of the newspaper correspondents do their work on naval affairs, but I should not like to say that a lot of things have not appeared in the newspapers in the last twelve months referring to technical details which had much better be omitted.
Will naval attachés of foreign Powers be on board?
No.
Boots and Shoes
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, previous to this year, the specifications for Navy boots and shoes required that, except for the outer soles, all leather used must be dressed in Great Britain and supplied by British manufacturers; and, if so, will he say why this custom has been departed from?
As I stated on Monday, in reply to the hon. Member for Portsmouth, the specification for uppers of Navy boots ordered prior to October, 1911, provided for English kip leather being used; the outer soles were permitted to be either English or foreign. On the introduction of the new pattern boot, box calf for uppers was adopted as being more flexible and comfortable, and questions of cost and supply rendered it essential to leave it open to contractors to obtain material equal to pattern and specification from any source.
I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the sealed pattern was of British manufacture?
Not the uppers.
Is it not the fact that the tender has gone abroad?
The contracts are in this country to the British contractor, British bootmakers and contractors, of course, also. The soles are exclusively British. The upper may be from any source. We do not know where the contractor will get his supplies.
And you make no inquiries?
Certainly not, for they can get the supply of material of the upper from any source.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has information from bootmakers in Kettering, Northampton, and Leicester, that English box-calf leather is quite as suitable for boots used in the Navy as Continental and American leather; if so, what action he proposes to take?
Our information is to the effect that English leather of the same quality and substance is dearer than foreign, and moreover that there is some doubt whether a sufficient quantity of home dressed skins of the desired substance and quality is at present available for the number of boots expected to be required annually. I am going closely into the matter, but so long as the position both as to price and supply stands as stated, we must obviously keep open all sources of supply.
Have the bootmakers in the districts named in the question made any representations that there should be included any restrictions as to the source where they will get their supply of raw material?
No. What has happened is that the Allied Leather Trades Federation (have asked us to receive a deputation on this matter, and what we have said is that we are prepared to allow them to come and give an expert demonstration that they can get flexibility and durability at a price not greater than that supplied from foreign material. I shall be very glad to meet them on that ground.
Parliamentary Visits to Fleet
asked what were the precedents for the expenditure of public funds on Parliamentary visits to the Fleet on lines closely similar to those now proposed for the visit on 9th July?
The following recent precedents may be cited for the expenditure of public funds in connection with special arrangements such as are now proposed for Members of both Houses of Parliament to visit the Fleet:—The joint visit of the Colonial Premiers and Members of the two Houses to the Fleet at Portsmouth on 3rd May, 1907. The visit of Members of both Houses of Parliament to the Fleet on the occasion of the Naval Review held by King Edward VII. on the 31st July, 1909. The visit of Members of the two Houses to the Fleet on the occasion of the Coronation Review on 24th June, 1911.
Is there any precedent before the year 1907?
I cannot say offhand.
Is it proposed that the House should sit on 9th July, the day of the review?
That is not a question for me.
Is there any parallel for the present case?
The proposed visit on 9th July is not quite similar to some of the precedents I have quoted. This is a day upon which we desire that Members of both Houses should see the Fleet in working guise, and, that being a public duty, we propose to pay their expenses.
New Hebrides
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can state whether there is any improvement in the position in the New Hebrides in regard to the kidnapping and illegal recruitment of natives for the plantations, and the sale of liquor to them, and whether these offences are dealt with by the Joint Court; whether he has received a Report on the state of affairs in the New Hebrides from the High Commissioner for the Western Pacific, and, if so, if he can lay the same before the House; and if he can state if another British resident has been recently appointed, and, if so, will he give the name of the gentleman?
Infringements of the New Hebrides Convention in regard to kidnapping, illegal recruitment of natives, and the sale of liquor are dealt with by the Joint Court. There has not yet been time to judge how far improvement in these respects has taken place as the result of joint proposals made by the English and French High Commissioners at the end of last year, since only some of the proposals have been brought into operation, and that only quite recently. Other proposals are still being discussed with the French Government. The changes which are actually in operation are, in the first place, the imposition of Import Duties on liquor and arms, which will it is hoped materially restrict the sale of those commodities; and in the second place, the appointment of two Government Agents (two others will it is hoped shortly be appointed) who will be stationed on different islands, and whose duties will especially include the supervision of recruiting operations and the reporting of any infringements of the Convention. The High Commissioner's report on his visit to the New Hebrides last November was of a confidential character and cannot be published. There has been no new appointment to the post of British Resident, but that officer, Mr. Merton King, is proceeding on leave of absence, and Mr. Mahaffy, the Assistant to the High Commissioner, will act in the post during his absence.
Dominions (Royal Commission)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will say why the terms of reference of the Dominions Royal Commission have been materially varied in several important respects from the terms of the resolution agreed to at last year's Conference; whether any correspondence has taken place with the Dominion Governments with regard to these changes; and, if so, whether he will publish that correspondence?
The terms of reference which follow closely the Resolution of the Conference were agreed to by all the Dominions. I will consider whether any correspondence which exists on the matter can be published.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think the exclusion of investigation into the resources of the United Kingdom and the exclusion of all inquiry into fiscal matters that are consistent with the policy of those Dominions is a close following of the terms of reference?
From my knowledge of what took place in the Imperial Conference and correspondence subsequently I do not think there has been any material departure from the intentions of the Resolution.
Was it not the intention of the original Resolution that the Commission should inquire into the resources of the United Kingdom as one of the States represented at the Conference, and is not the present reference one which directly excludes the United Kingdom?
I do not think that the hon. Member has rightly translated the intention of the Conference. I do not believe the Conference ever intended to inquire into the resources of the United Kingdom, which are so well supplied in statistics in this country.
Is it not the case that at least one of the oversea Dominions has protested against the exclusion of those words, "United Kingdom resources," from the terms of references?
Uganda Railway
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will say what the Uganda Railway has cost up to the end of the last financial year; what the gross and net profits were during the last financial year; whether any interest is being earned on the capital expenditure beyond depreciation; and, if not, how many years the interest has now been in arrear?
The cost up to 31st March, 1911, the end of the last financial year for which actual figures are available, is £5,448,662 6s. 3d. The gross receipts for the year 1910–11, the last financial year for which actual figures are available, were £300,116 and the total expenditure £201,596, leaving a net profit of £98,520. The gross receipts and expenditure are merged in the general revenue and expenditure of the Protectorate, which is not charged with interest on the above capital expenditure.
National Insurance Act
Judicial Decisions of Commissioners
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has taken into consideration the importance of making known to the public at the earliest possible moment any judicial decisions of the Insurance Commissioners, and what steps he proposes to take for that purpose; whether the Press and public will be allowed to attend the hearing of cases by the Commissioners; and whether any judicial decisions have yet been given?
The Commissioners are required by the regulations made, under Section 66, of the National Insurance Act to take such steps as appear to them to be necessary for the purpose of making known to all persons interested any decision given by them under that Section, and it is intended to insert a corresponding provision in the regulations to be made under Section 67. They will use the public Press for this purpose. Any members of the public, including representatives of the Press, will be allowed to attend any formal hearing of cases under Section 66 or Section 67. No judicial decisions have yet been given.
Official Leaflets
asked what numbers of the leaflet entitled N.H. leaflet have been printed and circulated; what is the cost, or estimated cost of printing and circulating such leaflet; and under what Vote does such cost appear in the Estimates?
Twenty-five million copies of the N.H. leaflet have been printed for circulation at an estimated cost of £8,000. This amount will be borne by the Stationery Office Vote. I am not in a position to give an estimate of the cost of circulation which is being undertaken mainly by the Post Office. The cost, so far as the Post Office is concerned, will be borne by the Vote of that Department.
Is that £8,000 included in the £25,000 estimated cost of bringing the Act into force?
No, it is included in the general Estimate made for all Services, including leaflets in the Stationery Office Vote.
Is it in the £25,000?
I do not think so. I think it is in the Stationery Office Vote alone.
asked what is the length of the working day referred to on page 3 of the N.H. leaflet.?
The working day referred to is the normal working day of the trade and locality in which the particular person is employed, and will therefore vary in length, in accordance with the custom prevalent in that trade and locality.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that it will be a matter of some difficulty for the employers to determine what is the normal working day, particularly in the case of casual labour?
It is a matter of some difficulty; therefore we are giving the employers every assistance possible to obtain the information.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the normal working day of a charwoman?
I think that that is a matter for investigation.
asked whether the Government were prepared to make good the representation contained in the N.H. leaflet that sickness benefit will be paid to working men at 10s. a week for twenty-six weeks, commencing on the fourth day of sickness, and disablement benefit at 5s. a week afterwards if still incapable of work?
The benefits mentioned are the ordinary benefits of the Act. They are paid first from the funds of the approved society and guaranteed by the National Insurance Fund, unless and until a valuation has disclosed a deficiency. These benefits are as stated in the N.H. leaflet, subject to certain waiting periods and other conditions. These conditions are explained in the official leaflets, of which a list is given on the last page of the N.H. leaflet, and of which supplies can be readily obtained from local Customs and Excise officers.
Does the right hon. Gentleman still say that there is ninepence for fourpence?
More than ninepence for less than fourpence.
Is it correct to say, as is stated in the leading article in the "Daily News" this morning, that—
We cannot discuss the leading articles in the "Daily News."
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will explain why, in the N.H. leaflet recently circulated, the benefits are specified without specifying the waiting periods and without any reference to arrears; and whether he will alter the leaflet so as to summarise the provisions as to waiting periods and arrears in the same manner as the provisions as to benefits, so as to prevent false hopes being raised?
It is expressly stated in the N.H. leaflet that the benefits are "subject to certain waiting periods and other conditions." It is not practicable in a leaflet intended to be of a general character to give particulars of all the provisions of the Act affecting insured persons. Such a leaflet is necessarily of limited dimensions and lays special emphasis upon what knowledge is immediately required.
Would it not be perfectly easy to summarise in three or four lines the waiting period and the arrears provisions, just in the same way as the benefits are summarised?
It would be very difficult to summarise in three or four lines the arrears provisions. It would include a full table of the various reductions which have to be made and the different sickness benefits which would then be given, and all the various conditions as to the amount of arrears the insured person is in.
Medical Fees (Apportionment)
asked how it was proposed to pay doctors under the National Insurance Act in cases of hotel staffs who moved in different seasons of the year from one hotel to another, and in cases of domestic servants who were in service in Scotland for six months and moved to England for six months in each year; would the doctor in the district where the employed person commenced the year receive the capitation fee for the whole year, or would the fee be apportioned between the doctors in the various districts where the employed person might reside during the year; and, if the fee was to be apportioned, would any difference be made between the summer and winter seasons?
The Act gives full power subject to regulations to the insurance committees and medical profession in each district to make such detailed arrangements for dealing with matters of the kind referred to in the question as may be found most expedient and agreeable to all concerned. The Insurance Commissioners will facilitate such arrangements as may be necessary for such purposes between the committees of different districts. It is not to be assumed that doctors will necessarily be paid by capitation fee. If locally preferred a system of payment per attendance may be adopted.
Will regulations be laid down by the Insurance Commissioners in conjunction with the local committees?
Regulations will be laid down, and they are now being discussed by the medical representatives on the Advisory Committee in conjunction with the Insurance Commissioners.
Border Societies
asked if representations have been received from the Manchester Unity or other friendly societies as to the detrimental effect upon border societies of the provisions of Section 83 (3) of the National Insurance Act; and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to receive a deputation on the subject?
Representations have been received on this subject. The alterations which the society desires could not, however, be given by regulations, and would require legislation. Amending legislation would be premature until some experience has been gained of the actual working of the Act, and my right hon. Friend does not consider that a deputation on the subject would serve any useful purpose at present.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, if a single member of an approved society on the borders happened to reside in Wales whilst all the other members lived in England, or vice versa, that single member would, by Section 83 (3) of the National Insurance Act, be compelled to form himself into a separate branch, and, if necessary, fine himself, visit himself, and if he finds himself in a deficiency make a levy on himself?
The Act does not contemplate that a person resident in Wales would join an English society of which he would be the only Welsh Member. If he joined such society while resi- dent in England and subsequently transferred his residence to Wales he would take from his society his full transfer value to enable him to join a society with Welsh members. The Commissioners will encourage arrangements whereby societies having members on the border line between the national boundaries agree to reciprocal transference of membership for those who change their residence from one side to the other.
Has the right hon. Gentleman not received a good deal of evidence as to the extreme inconvenience of having different Commissioners for Wales, England, and Scotland, and is he aware that many other people do not want to leave their own societies?
I do not think I have received any evidence, or evidence that was not before the House of Commons when the House decided to make these national arrangements.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman state, in reply to a previous question, that he had received a request to hear a deputation upon the subject from the Manchester Unity?
That is not evidence; the question of a deputation is not evidence. There is nothing, to my knowledge, which was not before the Members of the House of Commons when they agreed that the advantages of making such arrangements outweighed what disadvantages there may be.
Is not a request for a deputation to be received a sign of discontent and inconvenience?
Not necessarily.
Officials from Other Departments
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state how many officials have been borrowed or transferred from other Departments to take part in the administration of the National Insurance Act?
Two hundred and seventeen officials of all grades have been permanently transferred from other Government Departments to the various Insurance Commissions, and, in addition, the service of fourteen others have been placed at the disposal of the Commissioners as a temporary reserve during the present period of pressure.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain how these other Departments are carried on without this large number, 217, transferred?
It is quite simple. These officials have been promoted, and the people who would have received places under them have been promoted?
Are young and untried officials brought in to do their work?
No, not at all. The position is normal, as when a member retires, or dies, or otherwise leaves a particular Department.
Village and District Nurses
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether it will be in the power of local insurance committees under the National Insurance Act to sup port village and district nurses by paying the whole or a part of the salaries of such nurses; and, if so, upon what funds the local insurance committees will be able to draw for this purpose; and whether, in the event of such a course not being at present open to local insurance committees under the Act, he will, in view of the probability that insured per sons will not be able to continue to support such nurses in the same manner as heretofore, and in view of the benefit to national health to be derived from the regular attendance of properly qualified nurses in the homes of the sick poor, consider the advisability of so amending the Act or issuing such a Regulation as to enable local insurance committees to defray the cost of providing the services of a nurse in each village or district where it is proved to the satisfaction of the local insurance committee that the services of such a nurse have been or will be dispensed with as the result of the coming into operation of the National Insurance Act?
I would refer the hon. Member to Section 21 of the Act, and to the answers given to the hon. Member for Wilton on 1st and 10th April, to which I can add nothing at present.
Labour Exchanges and Unemployment Benefits
asked whether unemployment benefits under Part II. of the National Insurance Act will be paid at the same rates by Labour Exchanges and trade unions; and, if not, will he state the reason for the difference?
An association of workmen in the insured trades, which has made an arrangement with the Board of Trade under Section 105 of the Act, may pay unemployment benefit to its members at such rate as it thinks fit, but the Section provides that it shall only be able to obtain subsequently from the Unemployment Fund repayment of such benefits as its members would have been able to obtain had they claimed direct through the local office of the Unemployment Fund. Under Section 106, associations making payments to persons whilst unemployed can also, under certain conditions, obtain a subsidy not exceeding one-sixth of such payments, exclusive of the sum (if any) repaid to the association under an arrangement as described above.
Sons of Master Builders
asked whether it is intended to frame Regulations to exempt from the operation of Part II. of the National Insurance Act the sons of master builders working with their fathers in the building trade, where the conditions of employment differ from those of the ordinary employés in that their remuneration continues whether they are actually working or not?
The Board of Trade have no power to exempt from the operations of Part II. of the National Insurance-Act workmen engaged in one of the insured trades except under the provisions of Section 104 ( a ) and ( b ) and Section 107 (4). Neither of these Sections would enable exemptions to be made on the grounds suggested by my hon. Friend.
Delivery of Correspondence
asked if the right hon. Gentleman will say how many extra letters, notices, etc., it is estimated that postmen will have to deliver during the early days of next month in connection with the National Insurance Act; and whether he proposes to pay them any overtime for this increase in their labours?
The National Health Insurance leaflets are to be delivered to every house in the Kingdom, and the number is estimated by the Insurance Commissioners as about twelve millions; but I cannot frame any estimate of how many extra letters, etc., will pass through the post in connection with the Insurance Act. As regards the leaflets I have instructed postmasters that, while every effort should be made to arrange for their distribution without incurring overtime, payment will be made for extra duty due to such distribution, subject to a certificate that the duties were performed with due expedition, and that the time claimed for is reasonable and proper to be allowed.
Explanatory Leaflets
I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury a question of which I have given him private notice: Whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the explanatory leaflet, "N. H.," distributed broadcast among householders in the United Kingdom, neglects to state how often contributions are due, and is therefore seriously misleading, and might be understood as requiring contributions from employers and workmen only on each occasion when wages are paid; and whether, in view of the importance of circulating accurate statements about the Insurance Act, an amended leaflet will be promptly issued to all persons to whom the first leaflet has been delivered?
I do not think that the leaflet as printed can be misleading to anyone. The actual times at which contributions are paid and the periods in respect of which they are paid will, of course, vary with the times at which wages are paid and with the conditions of employment. It would be clearly impossible to set these forth at length in a leaflet of this character. Fuller particulars are, however, given in the other leaflets, and also, for employers in particular in the special Explanatory Pamphlet A.
Would it not be perfectly simple to say the ordinary weekly rate was 7d., instead of having a paragraph, "Contributions, the ordinary rate," without saying for what period the amount of 7d. is calculated?
I do not think anyone could be under any misunderstanding.
Is this not extremely misleading in the case of domestic servants where the wages are paid monthly, and is it not likely to make them think the contribution fixed here at 6d. can be deducted when the wages are paid each month instead of 6d. per week?
We are issuing special information in leaflets with regard to domestic servants.
Admiralty Staff
asked whether in view of the increase in the cost of living during the past twelve years, as evidenced by the Report of the Board of Trade, Treasury sanction would be given to an immediate increase in the pay of the writing staff of the Admiralty and Royal dockyards, observing that the present pay of this body of public servants was practically the same as originally fixed in 1879; (38) whether the Secretary to the Treasury could now say when Treasury concurrence would be given to the Admiralty proposals based on the Macnamara Staffing Committee's Report; and, if a date could not be given, would he say how many Departments had yet to be consulted, observing that these proposals had been under reconsideration of his Department since October, 1909?
I fear I am still unable to add to my former answers on this matter.
Census of Production
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture when the further figures of the Census of Production, which it was hoped would be ready soon after Easter, would be published?
The figures to which the hon. Member refers were published last week. I shall be glad to send him a copy of them.
Could it not be supplied through the Vote Office in the usual way?
I will communicate with the authorities of the House on the subject.
Small Holdings (Maylands, Essex)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he had received any statement from Mr. Joseph Fels relative to the experiment in small holdings carried out by that gentle man at Maylands, in Essex; and, if so, would he circulate the statement to Members of this House?
I recently received from Mr. Fels a personal letter describing an experiment in small holdings carried out by him at Maylands, in Essex. If the hon. Member desires to obtain information about the experiment, perhaps his best course would be to address himself to Mr. Fels personally.
Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten that he promised an hon. Member on the other side that if he received a statement from Mr. Fels he would circulate it to the House?
I have no recollection of having made such a statement. Mr. Fels has written me a personal letter, and I could not undertake to circulate personal letters.
Farm Fires
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he would consider the advisability of introducing legislation with a view to reducing the frequency of farm fires caused by the dropping on parched hedges and grass of live coals from the funnels of railway engines?
So far as the Board are aware, the Railway Fires Act, 1905, has provided a satisfactory remedy for losses occasioned by fires such as those to which the hon. Member refers. I have no reason to think that any further legislation on the subject is needed.
If it is brought to the attention of the right hon. Gentleman that fires are caused which are not covered by the Act, will he consider the advisability of taking steps to prevent such fires by the application of some mechanical appliance?
I should be only too pleased to consider any case the hon. Gentleman brought to my notice. So far every case brought to my notice has been covered by the Act.
Hyde Park Gardeners
asked the hon. Member for St. George's-in-the-East, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether nine gardeners employed in Hyde Park were discharged last week; and, if so, could he state the reason for the discharges?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Addi- tional men are always taken on for a short time in the spring for work in the plant houses, and are discharged when the plants have been bedded out.
Old Age Pensions
asked what amends were made to a person entitled by age and circumstances to an old age pension who applied giving evidence of age, but, owing to technicalities over which he had no control, got no pension for 14 months, to whom the local committee then voted a pension dating from the first application, and the Local Government Board for Scotland disallows the retrospective part of this vote; and whether the arrears of pension so due to Patrick Gormley, Tranent, Landward, No. 810 on pension officer's register, would now be paid?
The applicant referred to did not furnish evidence of his age when he lodged a claim for a pension fourteen months ago, and from the information supplied by him his age could not be ascertained. It was not until he lodged a subsequent claim that he furnished the Board with proof that he had attained the statutory age. In view of the terms of Section 5 of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, there is no power to make pensions retrospective.
Next-of-Kin (Mrs. Helen Blake)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he would state the precise value of the property, real and personal respectively, of the next-of-kin of the late Mrs. Helen Blake, née Sheridan, intestate, acquired by the Crown by means of omitting to advertise for next-of-kin in Ireland, to which Mrs. Blake was known to belong and where the name Sheridan was common; and, if the precise value would not be stated, would he say why and on what authority the information was refused?
The residue of the personal estate of the late Mrs. Blake is £96,778 4s. 11d. The "precise" value of the real estate cannot be stated. As a rough estimate the value may, however, be given as £48,000. With regard to the advertisement, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I have just given him.
Attachment for Debt (Government Officials' Wages)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the wages of all Government officials were exempt from attachment for debt; if not, would he say in what Department of the Government the officials were in the same position as to attachment for debt as those who were not Government servants; what was the ground for this difference of treatment; and would he introduce legislation making all men in this respect equal before the law?
I am advised that the salary and wages of servants of the Crown in the hands of the Crown are not liable to attachment, the reason being that proceedings in attachment do not lie as against the Crown. I have no knowledge that any amendment of the law in this respect is called for. I may perhaps refer the hon. Member to the Wages Attachment Abolition Act, 1870 (33 and 34 Vic. cap. 30), under the provisions of which no order can be made in any case for the attachment of the wages of any servant, labourer, or workman. This Act applies to England only, but there is a somewhat similar enactment in Scotland.
Civil Service (Assistant Clerks)
asked how many new class assistant clerks were employed in the Education Office, in the Savings Bank Department, and in the Customs and Excise Statistical Office; and how many had been promoted to the second division or analogous class in each case.
The figures are as follows:—
Board of Education: Number employed, 308; promotions since 1908, 33.
Customs Statistical Office: Number employed, 193; promotions since 1908, 16.
Savings Bank Department: Number employed, 265; promotions since 1908, 21.
Customs and Waterguard Preventive Officers
asked the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury the number of appointments made since 1st January, 1906, to the Customs and Waterguard Preventive Officers' service; and how many of the persons so appointed were nominated by Members of the Opposition and by all other Members of the House respectively?
Since January, 1906—the date referred to in the hon. Member's question—537 preventive men have been appointed by my two-predecessors and myself. The Patronage Secretary, prior to 1906, left no record of the distribution of his patronage amongst Members of Parliament, nor have I any record available of the recommendations made to my two predecessors to which effect was given. During the years 1910–11–12, for which I am responsible, 122 appointments have been made. In the last batch of twenty appointments made in March, twelve of the candidates were specially recommended by Liberal Members, and eight by Members of other parties in the House. The applications annually number several hundreds, and the task of selection is an invidious and difficult one. I have endeavoured, as I think my correspondence with Members of the Opposition and other parties in the House will attest, to give careful and fair consideration to their recommendations. I may say that recommendations from this side of the House appear to preponderate over those from the other side, and, no doubt, the same tendency was observed by the Patronage Secretary prior to 1906. A Departmental Committee has been considering the whole question of the Waterguard service. In any case, Members who are inundated with applications for these appointments will be glad to know that, with the approval of the Prime Minister, I am taking steps to waive, in the public interest, the patronage attached to my office, and to transfer the work to suitable-permanent officials directly in touch with the requirements of the service. But in the meantime I will continue to do my best carefully to consider any special recommendations that may be put forward by hon. Members from any quarter of the House.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of dispensing with necessity for nomination by a Member of this House?
That, I think, I have answered in my reply.
Dental Treatment in Schools
asked the President of the Board of Education whether his Department has made a Grant for dental treatment in the schools under his jurisliction; if so, what is the amount of that Grant; and is it distributed equally over the whole country or given only to certain localities?
No Grant has hitherto been made in aid of dental treatment but, under regulations already issued, a Grant will be made this year towards the expenditure of local education authorities on medical treatment, which will include dental treatment.
Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation)
asked whether the local authorities in England and "Wales will be called upon to make any contribution to the superannuation fund for teachers?
Under the Act of 1898 no such contribution was payable by local education authorities, and the Government are not proposing to make any alteration in the scheme in this respect.
asked the President of the Board of Education, if he will state when the new scheme for improving the pensions of elementary teachers will come into force, and if it includes any provision for teachers who have retired within the last five years?
If the House approves the new scheme will apply to all teachers in recorded service on the 31st March, 1912, but I propose to ask a Departmental Committee to advise me to what extent the money at my disposal will enable me to make provision for the purpose, amongst others, of improving the allowances paid to teachers whose recorded service terminated before the date I have mentioned.
Is it proposed to make any provision to enable those who have not subscribed to the superannuation scheme in the past to come into the new superannuation scheme by paying up the back money?
Is it not a fact that these teachers had the option of joining, and would it not be very unfair to those who have built up the fund to allow the fund to be open to these teachers?
I cannot admit that it necessarily would be unfair; but the subject is one which I propose to reserve for the Departmental Committee, and to await their report upon it.
Will the scheme apply to all teachers?
Lords of Appeal (Fees)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that Lords of Appeal are called upon to arbitrate in important cases in the country, for which they receive fees; and whether, in view of the fact that it is proposed to increase the number of these Lords of Appeal in order to overtake arrears of work, he will make it a condition in future appointments that no remunerated arbitration work should be undertaken by them?
I am not aware that Lords of Appeal are called upon to arbitrate in important cases for which they receive fees, nor do I see any reason for making any conditions on the subject.
British Exports (Flour and Wheat Meal to South Africa)
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state what were the quantities and what were the values of flour and wheat meal exported from British ports during the years 1901 and 1911, respectively, to all ports on the South African Coast between and inclusive of Beira and Table Bay?
The total exports of wheat meal and flour to British South Africa and Portuguese East Africa in 1901 were 25,200 cwts., valued at £15,700, of which 1,230 cwts., valued at £670, were of United Kingdom manufacture. In 1911 the totals were 12,000 cwts., valued at £8,500, of which 2,000 cwts., valued at £1,400, were of United Kingdom manufacture. Partculars are not available as regards the exports to individual ports.
Nurses' Registration Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Nurses' Registration Bill is now supported by the British Medical Association, the Matron's Council of Great Britain and Ireland, the Royal British Nurses' Association, the Society for the State Registration of Trained Nurses, the Fever Nurses' Association, the Scottish Nurses' Association, the Association for the Promotion of Registration of Nurses in Scotland, and the Irish Nurses' Association, and that Acts providing for the State registration of nurses have been passed in South Africa, in Queensland, in New Zealand, in Ontario, in thirty-four of the States in the American Union, in Germany, and in Belgium; and whether, in view of the necessity for the protection of the sick from unqualified nursing which assumes to be qualified, he will give facilities for the passage of the Bill already passed by the House of Lords or some other?
I was not previously aware of all the facts cited by the hon. Member, but in any case I fear I cannot give facilities for the passage of a Bill on this subject.
Profit-Sharing and Co-partnership Schemes
asked whether the Board of Trade Report on co-partnership and profit-sharing schemes to be issued in September will contain Reports on the working of such schemes conducted in the Colonies and in foreign countries; and what steps have been taken, both at home and abroad, to obtain information as to the working of co-partnership schemes from small employers and in other cases where it is not generally known that such schemes are in existence?
Detailed information with regard to profit-sharing and co-partnership schemes now in operation in the United Kingdom is being sought for both by direct inquiries and by notices in the Press. A preliminary analysis of a large number of schemes will appear in the July number of the "Board of Trade Labour Gazette." It is proposed that the Report, which will appear in the autumn of this year, shall be confined to the United Kingdom. Such information as can be obtained respecting schemes in operation in the more important. British Dominions and Colonies and in foreign countries will be published in a summary form as soon as possible after the issue of the Report on schemes in the United Kingdom.
Is it not a fact that where co-partnership has been introduced it has been the cause of speeding up work, causing the dismissal of a number of men and preventing old men from being employed?
Is it not the case that where a scheme of co-partnership has been introduced it has drawn employers and employed together and has tended to employ more men?
Imperial Conference (Naturalisation)
asked the Prime Minister if he will say when he hopes to be able to introduce the legislation promised at the Imperial Conference dealing with the question of naturalisation?
I am unable to fix a date, and I understand that the Government are still awaiting communications from the Australian and Canadian Governments, whose attention has however again been called to the matter.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that an undertaking, amounting almost to a pledge, was given by a former Home Secretary that the fees for naturalisation in this country would be reduced?
That question does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
House of Commons (Payment of Members)
asked whether, in view of the fact that the services of Members in this House are now rewarded by a yearly salary, it is his intention to propose any Standing Order dealing with the length of absence from duty of hon. Members, more particularly when such absence is from a cause other than physical incapability?
The answer is in the negative.
Is it not a fact that there are at the present moment Statutes in existence which deal with the case of hon. Members who get salaries and do not do their duty?
Perhaps the hon. Member would kindly supply me with a list?
Would it not conduce to public business if the Government paid some Members to remain away?
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider this question, in view of the desirability of keeping the Government majority up to the normal pitch?
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of having brass discs to register when we come in and out?
Returning Officers' Expenses
asked whether it is the intention of the Government to make provision other than by means of a Bill for the payment of returning officers' expenses at Parliamentary elections; and, if so, when it is intended to do so?
The Government are not proposing to make any such provision during the present Session.
Franchise and Registration Bill
asked whether the Government will consider the desirability of separating the Reform Bill into two parts, one dealing with improvements of the machinery of registration, etc., and the other with the question of the extension of the franchise to either men or women or both, in order that the fate of the Bill may not be jeopardised by an issue which has no real bearing upon the pressing need of improved facilities for securing a full and adequate representation of those who are at present entitled to the franchise?
The improvements of the machinery of registration are necessary in order to give full effect to the extension of the franchise, and the question of improved machinery has, therefore, a very real bearing on the question of the franchise. The Government cannot entertain the suggestion made by the hon. Member.
Coast Erosion (Legislation)
asked when the Bill carrying out the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Coast Erosion, which the Prime Minister, in reply to a question by the hon. Member for the Harwich Division of Essex, stated on 30th October, 1911, the Board of Trade were then considering and hoped it might be possible to introduce before long, may be expected to be introduced?
A Bill is being prepared on the subject, but I cannot name a date for its introduction.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a Bill was promised "before long," and that is eight months ago, and that large slices of the coast are slipping into the sea while the Government are doing nothing?
I think the hon Gentleman exaggerates the extent of the coast erosion. He knows as well as I do that in the present state of business further legislation cannot be introduced.
Metropolitan Police (Sir Robert Anderson)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the letter written by Sir Robert Anderson, ex-Commissioner of the London Police, and published on the 24th instant, in which he attacks the Secretary of State for the Home Department and alleges; that by his administration he has demoralised the working officers of the London Police; and, in view of the strong censure and clear warnings publicly given in this: House to this gentleman by him and by the then Home Secretary on 21st April, 1910, whether he can say if an opportunity will be given to the House to decide whether a pension from public funds should continue to be paid to Sir Robert Anderson?
The Government do not propose to take any notice of the letter in question.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he remembers on the occasion of the last Debate with regard to Sir Robert Anderson's public communications he gave an undertaking to the House that the Treasury would revise the conditions on which pensions are held by ex-civil servants in certain circumstances, and whether in view of Sir Robert Anderson's last performance he will give effect to that promise?
No, sir. I think the matter is non tanti.
Port of London (Export and Import Trade)
asked what was the value of the export and import trade from and to the Port of London in April and May of this year, and the corresponding figures for the same months in 1911?
The information is not readily available, and will take some time to prepare. I will notify the hon. Member when it is ready.
Arising out of that answer—
The hon. Member asked a question and got a full answer. I am sure there can be no reason for a supplementary question. I would remind hon. Members that the number of supplementary questions must be limited by the time at our disposal. Some hon. Members who ask these supplementary questions are very often the first to complain to me when their questions are not reached within the time allowed.
Colonial Mutual Life Assurance Society of Australia
asked the annual fees paid by the Colonial Mutual Life Assurance Society of Australia to its chairman and other directors, respectively; the amount of money lent by the Society to each or any of them; the rates of interest received by the society on those loans; the securities held by the society for those loans; and the rates of interest received by the society on independent loans?
The annual report of the Colonial Mutual Life Assurance Society, Limited, for the year ending 31st December, 1910, shows that during that year the sum of £2,768 7s. 4d. was paid for directors' fees. The other information for which the hon. Member asks is not contained in the returns filed by the society, and I am therefore unable to furnish it.
Is the hon. Gentleman not in a position, on behalf of the Board of Trade to ask for information?
I have inquired.
Alien Pilotage
asked whether any countries in addition to France have approached His Majesty's Government with any protest against the exclusion of foreigners from being granted pilotage certificates; and whether undertakings have been given to any foreign country that our law in respect of alien pilotage will be altered?
Protests were received from Sweden and the Netherlands, as well as from France. As regards the second part of my hon. Friend's question, I may say that negotiations have passed with the French Government and the matter has been examined by a Joint Commission representing the two countries. As a result, the French Government have been informed that His Majesty's Government proposed to introduce a Clause in their Pilotage Bill which would mitigate the practical grievance of which complaint is made.
Motor Car Accidents (Metropolis)
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he can state in what proportion of motor-car accidents within the Metropolitan area last year, involving loss of life or personal injury, the driver of the motor car had held a licence to drive motor cars for less than one year?
No, Sir. This information cannot be given. A police constable has no means of knowing when he takes particulars of an accident how long the driver of a motor car has been licensed.
asked how many fatal accidents have been caused in the administrative county of London since 1st January, 1912, by motor omnibuses and mechanically-propelled tramways, respectively?
Since 1st January last sixty-nine persons have been killed by motor omnibuses, and twelve by motor tramcars in the Metropolitan Police District. The numbers for the administrative county cannot be given separately.
asked how many fatal accidents were caused in the administrative county of London, during the five years ending 31st December last, by motor omnibuses and mechanically-propelled tramways, respectively; and how these accidents compare with the number of passengers carried and with the number of vehicles in each case?
My right hon. Friend cannot give the figures for the administrative county of London separately, but the figures for the Metropolitan Police District will be circulated with the Votes. [ See Written Answers this date. ]
asked if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the Select Committee on Cabs and Omnibuses, in their Report dated 31st July, 1906, paragraph 73, stated that they were of opinion that a considerable number of omnibuses now running in the streets of the Metropolis constituted an intolerable infringement of the amenities which are the right of every citizen; whether, since that Report, the number of motor omnibuses and the number of fatal accidents caused by them have rapidly increased; and what steps are proposed for the better protection of life and limb from these vehicles?
The paragraph referred to alluded not to accidents, but to the nuisance caused by the noise, vibration and smoke of these vehicles, then new and in process of evolution. The type has now been so greatly improved that these objections have to a considerable extent disappeared. The numbers of motor omnibuses and the numbers of accidents have rapidly increased as stated, and the police are doing their best, by the steps they adopt for the regulation of traffic and for dealing with reckless drivers, to protect life and limb from these and other fast-moving vehicles.
Has anything been done to carry out the condition suggested that motor omnibuses should adopt some form of safety tender like that used in France?
I do not think that suggestion has been adopted.
Will not the Government wake up until a Cabinet Minister has been killed?
Palmistry Advertisements (Mayfair)
asked if the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been directed to the continued practice and advertisements of palmistry and necromancy in and around Mayfair; and if the police are directly or indirectly instigated not to proceed against offenders in that particular area of the Metropolis?
Police action in these cases would at once be taken on reliable testimony that ignorant persons had been deceived or defrauded. Without such evidence they do not intervene.
Is the hon. Member aware that a person was convicted at Poplar and sentenced to two months' imprisonment with hard labour?
The discrimination is not between rich and poor, but between those who are ignorant and those who ought to know better.
Thompson v. Dibdin (House of Lords)
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been given to the case of Thompson v. Dibdin and others, recently decided in the House of Lords, and especially to the fact that Canon Thompson had charged a Christian couple in his parish with being open and notorious evil livers; and, having regard to the fact that only after litigation lasting about six years has that charge been dissipated, whether the Government will introduce legislation which will give protection to innocent parishioners against such charges being brought against them?
The decision of the House of Lords showed that no such charge ought to have been made, and it appears very improbable, in view of that decision, that any such charge is likely to be made again. The Government does not propose to introduce legislation.
Telephone Service
Dublin and Mullingar Trunk Lines
asked the Postmaster-General if he will say what causes the delay in establishing the promised direct telephonic communication between Dublin and Mullingar; and how soon it will be available?
The provision of two direct Dublin-Mullingar trunk lines has been authorised, and the work will be carried out as speedily as possible; but as new poles are required over a great part of the route it will necessarily occupy a considerable time.
Directory (Advertising)
asked if the right hon. Gentleman will state on what grounds Mr. Sydney Boughen, High Street, Buxton, was recently refused permission to advertise his business in the Telephone Directory?
No trace can be found of any such application. If the hon. Member will be so good as to furnish me with further particulars I will have fresh inquiry made.
Suffragist Prisoners
Remission of Sentences
asked whether, in view of the fact that the prime movers in the recent suffragist offences have had their sentences remitted, he will now consider favourably the desire of many Members of this House that those less culpable and still in prison may also be released?
I would refer my hon. Friend to what my right hon. Friend said in the Debate on the adjournment last Thursday. Certain of the prisoners referred to have been released upon medical grounds; but this affords no reason for advising any general remission of the sentences.
Can the hon. Member say how many have been released on medical grounds?
That is the subject of a further question.
Forcible Feeding
I beg to ask the Under-Secretary for the Home Department a question of which I have given him private notice, whether he can state the number of women suffragette prisoners who are now being forcibly fed; whether these are being subjected to a daily medical examination to ascertain how far it is safe to continue the forcible method without risk of injury to health or life, and whether the examination is made by the prison doctor or by an outside medical authority; also how many of these prisoners have been discharged during the present week?
In all there are twenty-two women who have been forcibly fed by tube, fourteen by cup, and thirteen are refusing food at Aylesbury, and have not yet been fed. The prisoners who are fed are carefully examined by the medical officers of the prison who are competent men with a full sense of their responsibility. At Holloway the Governor is a medical man, and there are two other medical officers there, both fully capable and trustworthy, one being an M.D., and the other a F.R.C.S. Experts are only needed in cases of special difficulty, and it must be borne in mind that feeding by tube is not in itself dangerous or injurious, but the danger is caused by the violent resistance of the prisoner which, like any violent action, involves risk to a person with a, weak heart or poor physique. My hon. Friend has asked me how many have been released this week. Eleven have been released from Holloway, four from Maidstone, seven from Birmingham, and one from Aylesbury. The eleven, four and seven from Holloway, Maidstone and Birmingham were all released on medical grounds.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether it is intended to stop the continuance of this treatment which is rousing public opinion by ordering the immediate release of all the other prisoners?
I do not think that arises on this question. I think that question ought to be reserved until Friday for a more responsible occasion than this.
I understand that of the twenty-three prisoners, or something of that kind released, a large number of them were released on medical grounds. Is the House to understand that they were released because forcible feeding would have been dangerous to their lives if it had been persisted in?
I do not think that is so. As the Noble Lord knows, in one case which I need not indicate, she was released without any forcible feeding at all. I think there were other cases released after being forcibly fed once or twice, all on medical grounds, because the medical officer thought it would be a danger to health or life, as the case might be, if the treatment were persisted in.
I am afraid that I did not make my meaning clear. When the hon. Member says dangerous to like or health, does he mean that if forcible feeding had been persisted in in those cases there would have been danger to life or health?
There is only a small difference between us. If the medical officer gave it as his opinion that to go on with the treatment would involve risks to life or health, then the prisoners; are released.
Port of London (Strike)
Transport Workers' Federation (Civil Police Force)
asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the fact that the Transport Workers' Federation has organised a civil police force in London armed with cudgels to supplement and strengthen the existing arrangements for peaceful picketing; and whether the decision of the Government not to take steps to amend the existing law as to picketing is affected by this official adoption by a trade union of organised force as a means of preventing men, desiring to do so, from working?
I am informed that inquiries have been made by the Commissioner of Police, and it would appear that no such force has been organised.
Is it not a fact that the Duke of Abercorn organised a civic police force? If so, I should like to know what they have been armed with?
I am afraid I cannot answer my hon. Friend.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say for what purpose they are armed; was it to break the strikers' heads?
I have answered the question on the Paper.
Attacks on Workers
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the cases reported on 18th June of a man being attacked by five strikers in Manchester Road, Isle of Dogs, because he had been at work, of another man on leaving work being attacked by a number of men and so injured that he had to receive hospital treatment, and of a carman being set upon by eight or ten strikers in Commercial Road and thrown from his van; and if, in view of the inability of the police in these and other similar cases to protect men working or wishing to work, he will take immediate steps to strengthen the hands of the police and to arrange for their disposition so as to enable men to go to and from their work without molestation?
Nothing is known to the police of the first and third cases referred to; and the particulars given of the second case are insufficient to enable it to be identified. The Commissioner of Police reports that the present strength of the force in the locality is adequate, and its disposition effective.
If I bring evidence with regard to the second case, will the right hon. Gentleman give it attention?
Certainly, if the hon. Member will give any information as to the circumstances of the case, I shall be glad.
Has the hon. Gentleman received the appeal for protection containing forty-four signatures of men who were afraid to go to work without protection?
I do not think that arises upon this question.
asked the Secretary of State if he can give particulars of the case in which two police constables were attacked in East India Dock Road by about thirty transport strikers during the present dispute, one of the men being now under treatment for blood-poisoning as the result of blows received from weapons in the hands of the strikers; and if he will consider as to making arrangements to ensure the police, in the area patrolled by the transport pickets, being in sufficient force to meet such attacks?
The Commissioner of Police reports that on 27th May a constable was violently assaulted in Orchard Street, Poplar, whilst engaged with another constable in dispersing a crowd. He was felled to the ground by a blow in the eye by a man who escaped. Cellulitis supervened, and he is now in Poplar Hospital Convalescent Home. It is not known that the assailant was a striker, nor is there any evidence that a weapon was used. The other constable was not assaulted. In the opinion of the Commissioner, the force available for duty in the locality is sufficient. Such assaults may occur however numerous the police on duty may be.
Assault on Lay Pastor
asked whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to an assault by strikers on a Mr. E. Mann, a Presbyterian lay pastor, in West Ferry Road, who had intervened when a number of strikers" pickets were beating a man who had gone to work after coming out of hospital, and whose family were starving; and whether he will provide for effective action being taken to put a stop to such methods?
Mr. Mann has informed the police, in reply to inquiries made yesterday, that he did intervene between some strikers and a workman, but that the account of the incident which appeared in the Press was greatly exaggerated, and he has written to the editor of the "Daily Telegraph" to that effect. Mr. Mann resides within seven doors of the police station, but he had not deemed the occurrence of sufficient importance to report particulars to the police.
Employers and EmployéS Meeting
I wish to ask the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to state the result of the inquiry of the Patronage Secretary with reference to the Motion on the Order Paper in my name dealing with the Port of London (Employers and Employés Meeting)?
I am afraid I am not able to say much more than I did the other day. I should be very glad that an opportunity should be afforded to discuss this matter, but I doubt very much whether it would be expedient to discuss it at the present moment.
In view of the present state of things in the East End of London, and the fact that there are something like 200,000 women and children starving, I feel bound to press the Government to name a day this week for the discussion of the Motion. I am sure the House itself would assent to it, and, if so, I am certain it would be advisable. I am asking the Prime Minister whether he could not provide a day this week.
No, I do not think so. The matter might, however, be approximately raised on Friday on the Home Office Vote.
Are we to understand that the Home Office Vote will be taken on Friday?
Yes, the Home Office Vote will be taken on Friday, and I am glad to say we have been able to make arrangements so that the Home Secretary himself will be present.
Is it not a fact that on the Home Office Vote this matter will be mixed up with others, and we should not be able to get a clear issue, and that therefore the offer will be of no good to effect a settlement?
May I ask the Prime Minister whether it is not the case that the Home Office Vote has been put down for Friday specifically in order to discuss the position of the suffragette prisoners?
I should very much hope that will not take the whole of the time.
Are we to understand that Friday is the only day which is going to be given to the Home Office Vote?
Not at all. In response to an appeal from all quarters of the House, I gave Friday as the first day.
May I take it, then, that the discussion on industrial questions will be taken at a later date?
Certainly.
May I ask the Prime Minister whether there is any possibility of the Government bringing the men and the Port Authority together with a view to a settlement?
I should not like to answer that question without notice. Perhaps the hon. Member will put it down for to-morrow?
Is it not a fact that the Government have been pressing the employers on this question, and has the Prime Minister seen the statement that the employers still stand by their original position, and have positively and absolutely refused to meet the men? If that is so does it not seem desirable this Motion should be carried by the House between now and to-morrow evening?
I have not put any pressure of any kind on anyone. I did not think it my duty to do so. I am as anxious as the hon. Member that this matter should be speedily and satisfactorily settled, but I really do not think for the moment the immediate prospects of a settlement would be facilitated or improved by a discussion of this Motion.
Easter Offerings (Exemptions from Taxation) Bill
I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to exempt Easter Offerings to clergy and ministers from taxation."
4.0 P.M.
This Bill, I believe, will meet with a considerable measure of support in all quarters of the House. It has a single operating Clause, which reads as follows:—
"From and after 1st January, 1913, no sum of money collected by voluntary subscriptions and presented to the clergy of the Established Church or to ministers of other Denominations as Easter Offerings shall be considered as part of the recipient's income for the purposes of taxation."
Perhaps I may be allowed to explain very briefly why it is necessary to introduce such a Bill at the present time. In ancient days it used to be the custom for religious congregations to subscribe on Holy Days, and notably at Easter, to offerings for the benefit of the clergy. This custom gradually fell into disuse and in the "Church Dictionary," originally published in 1842, the following observations will be found:— demanded from the vicar of East Grinstead Income Tax on the offering he had received. The vicar appealed to the Commissioners of Taxes, and the Commissioners decided that, the gift being a purely voluntary and personal one, it was not liable to assessment for the purposes of taxation. Eventually the case was taken to the Courts, and in 1905 the decision of the Commissioners was upheld in the High Court, but on 3rd July, 1907, this; decision was reversed by the Court of Appeal, and the judgment of the Court of Appeal was confirmed by the House of Lords on 10th December, 1908. The Inland? Revenue Authorities, having got their judgment, proceeded to make it retrospective. One rector received a demand in 1909 for payment of Income Tax on Easter offerings from the year 1903 onwards. The real harshness of that demand will be appreciated when it is realised that his living: was only £125 a year. Another clergyman received a demand for payment of Income Tax on his offerings for a period of nine years. Surely that is an unnecessarily vindictive exaction on the part of the Inland Revenue Commissioners. May I give the House one example of these Easter offerings. A churchwarden writes to me:—
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Earl of Ronaldshay, Lord Hugh Cecil, Mr. Harwood, Mr. Lane-Fox, Mr. Evelyn Cecil, Mr. Edward Wood, Mr. Bridgeman, Lord Robert Cecil, and Mr. Buckmaster. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 254.]
Proportional Representation
I beg to move, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill 'to make provision for the better Representation of the electors of the House of Commons, and for other purposes connected therewith.'"
It has been well known for some time that it was the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill to reform the Registration and Franchise Laws. That intention has recently been fulfilled, and the necessary corollary of any such measure is that there shall be a redistribution of the electoral areas of this country. That being so, those of us who believe that a very much better method than that now obtaining can be adopted, have thought this a proper and favourable opportunity to put our case before the country. I cannot, in the few minutes at my disposal, attempt to argue the whole case, but perhaps I may refer hon. Members who wish for further information on the subject to the Debate which took place in this House on the 30th March, 1910, on the Motion of the then Member for Plymouth. The complaint we make against the existing system is that it completely fails to secure the proper representation of the people in this House, and that it is in many respects extremely uncertain, so that the proportion of Members in this House does not bear any true proportion to the opinions held by the electors of the country. Let me give an example. I believe I am right in saying that in the City of Sheffield, with its five Members, the majority of the voters only succeeded in obtaining two of the seats. Three of the Members were returned by a minority of the voters. It will be quite obvious to any hon. Member that in the case of a town with five Members, the only thing certain is that the majority will return one Member. The other four seats may all go either to the majority or the minority; it will entirely depend on the haphazard manner in which the electors happen to be distributed over the different districts. We see in certain parts of the country, for instance in Wales, Scotland, Birmingham, and the Home counties, that the minority are entirely unrepresented in this House, and it is a pure accident if they ever secure representation. If you go to a Conservative churchman in Wales when he complains he is not represented here, you say, "After all, it does not much matter, because the Nonconformists in Sussex are equally badly off." That is very like saying to a man who has been unjustly convicted of a crime, "My dear fellow, your brother was unjustly acquitted of a similar offence yesterday, and therefore justice has been done." It cannot be an advantage that political opinion, honestly held in certain districts, should be entirely unrepresented in this House. The effect is to absolutely kill political propaganda in the district. A person knowing that he can never under any circumstances influence an election, takes no pains to make his views known or to make people understand them. Nor can it be desirable that we in this House should find that certain forms of political opinion are associated with one geographical district, and other forms with other districts where really there is no such marked difference in the political opinions of one district and another. I may point out that the effect of our single constituency system in the election of Members of this House has been that the majority has, in almost every case, been grossly exaggerated and greatly in excess of any majority the people in the country intended the Government should have, and, actually, in two cases in 1874 and in 1886, a majority of the Members of the House were returned by a minority of the voters in the country. I think it is a matter of very great importance that we should take the opportunity of making sure, whatever else we may do, of securing a thorough representation of the votes actually cast in an election. The Bill which I am asking permission to lay before the House has been modelled upon the system that has been adopted with very great success in municipal elections at Johannesburg and Pretoria. The movement has gained great ground. It has been adopted in several places on the Continent, and it is, I believe, on the eve of being adopted in France. It has been tried in several of our Colonies, particularly in Tasmania, and it has been brought to its most perfect form in the municipal elections in the Transvaal. This Bill affects two political questions to a slight extent. First, by an extension of the size of the constituencies, it necessarily to that extent reduces the amount of plural voting. Secondly, by making large electoral areas, it will produce what many hon. Members very properly ask for, equal value for one vote. Any scheme of redistribution will be much facilitated by the adoption of large electoral areas, because it will be possible to place the power of all voters on an equality by a simple alteration in the number of Members returned for the constituency. Anybody can see how much easier it is to add or take away from a constituency than to reallot the boundary. We have a large Schedule showing how we believe these constituencies should be drawn up. We submit that Schedule not as an inspiration, but only as a sample of the way in which we think redistribution should be carried out. There are in it several large constituencies, notably Birmingham, with its eleven Members, and Liverpool and Manchester, with ten and nine respectively; and I desire to say if in the opinion of such towns they prefer to be divided into smaller constituencies, there is nothing in the principle of proportional representation to prevent that being done, the only thing being that the larger constituency will give a better opportunity for the representation of various opinions. I therefore ask permission from the House to introduce a Bill to establish a system of proportional representation in this country. The Bill does not in any way refer to Ireland, because as far as that country is concerned Amendments introducing proportional representation will be moved on the Home Rule Bill.
I do not propose to offer any opposition to the Bill, but I wish to ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as to whether it is open to any private Member who fails in the ballot, or even has not balloted for a place at the beginning of the Session, to introduce a Bill under the Ten-Minute Rule? Was not that Rule intended to deal with special cases of emergency, and not such cases as have taken up our time this afternoon?
I think there are no such limitations on what is called the Ten-Minute Rule. It is open for any Member to make use of it for any purpose.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Holt, Sir William Beale, Mr. Burt, Lord Hugh Cecil, Mr. Cecil Harmsworth, Mr. Pretyman Newman, Mr. George Roberts, Mr. Leslie Scott, and Mr. Frederick Edwin Smith. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday, 9th July, and to be printed.
Supply.—[Tenth Allotted Day]
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1912–13
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Class 2.—BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES
Motion made, and Question proposed,
11."That a sum, not exceeding £133,539, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1913, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and of Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, including certain Grants-in-Aid."
[Note.—£120,000 has been voted on account.]
I am sure the Committee will agree that since the right hon. Gentleman has taken up his new office there has been an extraordinary degree of activity on the part of this new Department. Personally, I rather question whether this activity has not been somewhat excessive. It is a little difficult to keep pace with the large amount of literary output which generally finds expression in the daily newspapers, and for which the Board is responsible, and which is largely connected with new schemes for stimulating activity on the part of the local authorities or for developing new schemes of the Department over which the right hon. Gentleman presides. This very large output from the Board to some extent does embarrass those who have the administration of matters over which the Board exercise supervision. The last illustration occurs in the daily papers today. We are informed that loans are going to be made to local authorities in connection with afforestation, which is to be carried on by those bodies apparently for the benefit of the unemployed. I am one of those who look with some little doubt and hesitation upon schemes of afforestation with the object of finding employment for the unemployed in urban areas. The science of forestry is by no means an easy science to master. Even the planting of trees is a matter which cannot be efficiently carried out by a person who has no experience or knowledge of such occupation. I venture to hope that, although there may be scope for linking the administration of small holdings with the development of local afforestation, that the right hon. Gentleman, with his fresh knowledge and experience at the Board of Agriculture, will not force at too great a pace this new method of finding employment for the unemployed.
I am sure that the Committee and the agricultural public will sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman and his Department in the fact that there has been unfortunately a recrudescence of foot-and-mouth disease in this country. Perhaps he will allow me to take this opportunity of saying, as a Member of the Departmental Committee that has lately been dealing with the matter—and I speak on behalf of my colleagues as well as myself—that we do fully recognse the value to this country and to the stock of this country of the efficient and prompt action for which the Board has recently been responsible in connection with this extremely infectious disease. I only wish that the Board and its scientific advisers were able to show some greater expert knowledge of this disease. The state of knowledge in this country and, indeed, throughout the civilised world, appears to be most limited, and is not in any sense exact from a scientific standpoint, and until it does become far more exact, it will be, in my opinion, quite impossible satisfactorily to trace the causes of these repeated outbreaks, or to take effective steps to cope with them when they arise. Since March of last year the whole of the valuable industry in pedigree stock with South America and other countries has been at a standstill, owing to the ports being closed against English stock-owners on account of this disease. It is sad to think, just when those ports are being opened and when a large number of stock are being purchased, and are likely next week at the Royal Show to be purchased for the purpose of foreign export, that again this embargo should be imposed on our British stock. With regard to the diseases scheduled under the Contagious Diseases of Animals Act, it is satisfactory to note that there has been a substantial diminution, both in glanders (including farcy) and also in sheep scab, during the last twelve months. As regards the latter disease, there is a serious amount of it prevalent in Ireland to-day. I venture to hope that the Board will take all proper steps to prevent the disease coming across to our shores from Ireland, just in the same way that the Irish Department takes good care, by closing its ports, that foot-and-mouth disease shall not be transferred to them when it is prevalent in this country. The Board will be well advised to entirely restrict the importation of Irish hay and straw into this country until there is an abatement of this very prevalent and serious disease in Ireland.
As regards two of the other three scheduled diseases, the position is to my mind a very serious one. Anthrax appears to be steadily on the increase, and is not to be found in one part of the country only, but appears to be spread over every part of Great Britain. Unfortunately, it is not merely on the increase in respect of farm animals, but is also apparently on the increase as regards the human form of the disease. I think the time has come when the Home Office and the Board of Agriculture might join forces and appoint a Departmental Committee in order to consider the relations between animal anthrax and human anthrax, and to take effective steps, not merely by scientific investigation, but in other ways, to find out the reasons for the recrudescence of this extremely fatal disease. Before turning to swine fever, I should like to say one word only with regard to parasitic mange. I welcome the fact that the Board has insisted upon the administration with regard to this disease being uniform throughout the country and not piecemeal, as hitherto. It is a disease which can only be kept in check by uniform action on the part of all the local authorities concerned. As regards swine fever, the position is an increasingly serious one. In the year 1905 the number of confirmed outbreaks of swine fever was 817, during which year 3,876 swine were slaughtered. During the year 1911 the number of confirmed outbreaks was 2,466, a very substantial increase on the previous twelve months, and the number of swine slaughtered was 15,543—that is to say, in the course of six years there has been an increase in the number of outbreaks from 817 to 2,400, and in the swine slaughtered from 3,800 to 15,600. That represents a very serious national bill, which has every year to be paid in respect of this disease. The cost to the country out of public moneys during the last three years in respect of swine fever amounted to £252,800, and during the previous three years to £188,199, making a total in the course of six years of £441,000. Such an expenditure as that cannot possibly be justified unless there is some really substantial remedial result accruing.
We must bear in mind, as regards this particular disease, that the restrictions which in the eyes of the Board appear to be necessary are more harassing and vexatious to every class of the agricultural community than in respect of any disease with which the Board of Agriculture has to do. I am not overstating the case when I say that there is a large number of small farmers, and a still larger number of agricultural labourers and residents in our villages to-day, who have entirely given up the industry of pig-keeping—and there is no industry more calculated to keep them from a condition of destitution when times are bad—because of these vexatious restrictions, and for no other reason whatever. Bearing in mind how extremely vexatious and harassing these restrictions are, it is impossible to justify the enormous expense consequent upon these Regulations unless the disease is being gradually stamped out. So far from that being the case, it is steadily gaining ground. The administration of the Board with regard to this disease has got to be radically altered. I should like to say at the outset that there is very little trustworthy scientific knowledge in this country on the subject of swine fever to-day. That was demonstrated in the Report of the Departmental Committee, over which the hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Courthope) presided a year ago. They asked to be allowed to conduct research and experiments in regard to this disease before making their final report. The right hon. Gentleman has been unable to tell the House how far an advance has been made in the matter of these experiments and this research. In the absence of such knowledge, I suggest to him and to the Committee that it is utterly impossible to logically defend the existing Regulations. Let me give the Committee an illustration. The Chief Veterinary Officer of the Board made a very important speech at The Hague the year before last on the subject of this disease, and he had to admit that, on the one hand, the period of incubation of this disease was from five to nine days only. On the other hand, he went on to say, in somewhat vague language, that it was possible that the disease might be communicated from one animal, which was to all appearances perfectly well, to another animal which would eventually die of it, with the result that there might be no apparent evidence of the disease, although existing, for something like three months.
The period of detention and isolation under the Board's present regulations is twenty-eight days. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman how that period of twenty-eight days can possibly be justified or defended in view of what I have just stated. If five to nine days alone is the period of the incubation of the disease—and you have to consider that factor, and that factor only—a fortnight would be a sufficiently long period to prevent the transmission of the disease. If, on the other hand, it is utterly impossible to say that the disease might not be spread from one, animal to another over a period of three months, then the period of twenty-eight days is wholly inadequate. I suggest that until there is further knowledge of this disease the vexatious character of these regulations might be largely modified by reducing this period of twenty-eight days to a period of fourteen days or less, which alone can be justified in the light of ascertained knowledge. The scientific experts always tell us that there must be some pre-existing germs of the disease in the case of every outbreak. I am not going to challenge such a suggestion, but I do venture to say that there are other considerations which, in the light of experience, ought to be taken into account. For instance, you will hardly ever find a case of swine fever on perfectly clean premises, which premises are properly constructed and provide properly for the health of the animals which they contain. We know that in the case of tuberculosis, at any rate as regards human tuberculosis, whatever may be the bacillus or germ from which the disease originates, that persons are predisposed to that disease if the conditions in which they live are not healthy conditions. As regards pigs, the same considerations may be taken into account, and if the right hon. Gentleman were to insist on pigs being housed only on premises which are fit for their occupation, and that those premises shall from time to time be cleansed, we should hear very little hereafter about swine fever.
I was travelling a year ago on an agricultural tour in Belgium and France, and I found that in most parts of those countries swine fever was an absolutely unknown disease. But I also noticed that the pigs in both countries were taken a deal better care of than they are on most premises in this country. The pig is naturally the cleanest of all our domestic animals—a. fact which is not always recognised—but the unfortunate animal is seldom given am opportunity of showing his preference for cleanliness, and it is a preferences which the right hon. Gentleman might take into account when he comes to revise his regulations on the subject of swine fever. Another factor which, in my opinion, is instrumental in the spread of swine fever, is the fact that several days often elapse after the outbreak takes place before the inspector of the Board of Agriculture comes upon the premises and is able to authorise the disposal of the carcass. If you have a dead animal—and the disease in this case can be spread from the dead animal—lying on the premises and possibly conveying infection through the medium of rodents or insects, or even live animals to other parts of the same premises, there must be a danger of the continued prevalence upon those premises of this disease. Why cannot you make the local veterinary surgeon an ad hoc official of the Board to authorise the cremation—and nothing short of cremation is good enough of that carcass at the earliest possible moment, retaining if he chooses those parts of the intestines which may require bacteriological examination to send up to the Board? If such steps as these were taken instead of waiting for the deferred arrival of the official of the Board, you would find that one element, at any rate, in the present dissemination of the disease would cease to exist.
As regards cleanliness, by-laws are issued by the local authorities relating to the condition of cowsheds, dairies, and milk shops. Why should not similar by-laws be issued by the local authorities, with the approval of the Board, referring to the condition of the premises in which pigs are housed? It seems to me quite a feasible step to take, and I am inclined to think it might have very advantageous results. The Departmental Committee suggested that the size of the infected area should be reduced to the smallest possible limits. I do not think any action has been taken on the strength of that recommendation, but I should like wholly to endorse it, and to suggest that in this case where there is not the danger, as in the case of foot-and-mouth disease, of the germs being carried through saliva or otherwise on the wind, the infected area might be made extremely small, of course taking into account the exigencies and requirements of the local markets. But subject only to that I cannot conceive why it is necessary to have any infected areas for swine fever at all. The thing is, I think, a Departmental fad which has been run quite long enough. The country has been split up into scheduled areas for the purpose of swine fever, and no animal is allowed to be moved either from one infected area to another, or from one scheduled area into another, Such a course might be justified if, as a result, the country were gradually becoming exempt from this disease, but, so far from that being the case, the disease is raging to a greater extent than at any time during the last eleven years. One vexatious factor, at any rate, might be eliminated if the scheduled areas of the Board of Agriculture were entirely abolished.
I wish to say a few words with regard to two other diseases. One is Johne's disease. There are very few people who know what it is, but the Board of Agriculture have assumed a knowledge on the part of stock owners which, unfortunately, they do not possess, and about five months ago they issued a circular to all the agricultural societies in the country asking them to acquaint the Board, after consulting their members, as to the prevalence of Johne's disease in their districts, and it went on to describe the symptoms of the disease, for the information of those who were ignorant, as wasting accompanied by diarrhœa. The circular also mentioned that it was chiefly to be found in cattle. These are also the symptoms of a very-large number of cases of animal tuberculosis, and we all know that the less reputable stock owners are only too anxious to find an excuse for describing tuberculosis by some other name, and as it is perfectly clear that in most cases Johne's disease cannot be clearly ascertained without a post mortem examination the result of this request to local agricultural societies is for the Board to receive a large number of returns which are not worth the paper they are written on, because in most cases the figures which are given relate, to my certain knowledge, to tuberculous animals, and not those suffering from Johne's disease at all. How are the owners of stock to be in a position to tell the Board that their animals are suffering from Johne's disease unless they kill their animals and look inside? Even then I doubt whether they would be able to convey any valuable information to the right hon. Gentleman. The case involves the employment of a veterinary surgeon, and it involves the death of the animal. The right hon. Gentleman has rather complicated these returns and this particular Departmental action by issuing, about the same time, a circular to all the stock owners of the country asking them to give him information with regard to tuberculosis. I am sure he will not get any useful information on that subject for the reason I have given. I have no doubt he has received some information, but I question very much whether it is reliable, and, although I can confidently say that I have no tuberculosis at present in my herd, I am not at all prepared to give the right hon Gentleman, even with that secrecy which he tells us is going to be observed, the details of the steps which I have taken in order to stamp tuberculosis out of my herd, and I fancy he will find that similar feelings of reluctance will actuate other stock owners.
Why not give the information?
I will give the right hon. Gentleman a perfectly plain answer. There are very few of us who have not had tuberculosis in our herds—I I am talking now of pedigree herds, particularly of Shorthorn cattle—and although the right hon. Gentleman may observe all secrecy in the returns which he may receive, there is no assurance whatever that that is always going to remain a secret at the Board of Agriculture, and if it is hereafter used for other purposes it may very seriously affect the reputation of the herds to which it relates. I think the right hon. Gentleman may take it from me that there is not a single herd of pedigree cattle in the country to-day, certainly not of Shorthorn cattle, that has not had some unfortunate experience with regard to this disease. The other disease to which I want to refer goes by the most unfortunately long and almost unpronouncable name of epizootic abortion. I want to know what he is doing in the matter of this disease. His predecessor consulted the Central Chamber of Agriculture and other agricultural bodies some time ago as to whether an Order should be issued by the Board making this a notifiable disease. I think it would be advisable, but I am quite aware that there is a good deal of prejudice against such a course being taken, but in the meantime, as I understand, there are certain counties—I believe Cornwall is one, and I rather think Devonshire is another—which have taken the bull by the horns, and have on their own account insisted upon this disease being notifiable within their administrative areas. If this is so surely it is desirable to have uniform administration throughout the country, and what has, apparently with the consent and at the request of the farmers, been found possible in the South-West corner of England should be rendered compulsory throughout all the other counties.
May I take this opportunity of saying how extremely valuable the statistics, particularly those of production, which are published by the Board are to most agriculturists, particularly to scientific agriculturists, and I think the country is under a deep debt of gratitude to Mr. R. H. Rule, of the Board of Agriculture, for the very valuable and interesting figures which he is able every year to present to Parliament and to the agricultural public. No figures that he has yet included in his Annual Report could possibly be more interesting than those including many record statistics which he has lately presented in regard to the most extraordinary year 1911. May I also take the opportunity of saying that the leaflets published by the Board of Agriculture have to my mind been more full of precise and useful knowledge, particularly to small cultivators, than they used to be some years ago, and there is one that has only lately been issued which I regard as perhaps the most valuable of all, which warns the public against the use, even at low prices, of inferior fertilisers. There is a greater waste of money on the part of semi-informed or ignorant persons to-day on worthless fertilisers than in any other Department of agricultural expenditure, and I regard that leaflet as of very great value on that account. The right hon. Gentleman has during the last few weeks, with the energy and resource which actuates all he does, brought into existence a new Department of the Board which is to deal with horticultural matters. I understand it is going to pay particular attention to intensive cultivation, such as is carried on, not merely in gardens, but in market gardens, and also, to a large extent, upon small holdings. I hope he will be able to give the House some precise information this afternoon as to the exact scope of this new Department and as to its relations with the Board of Agriculture and its leading officials. He informed the House three days ago that a certain A. L. Rogers, an official of the Board, had been put at the head of this Department. Mr. Rogers is a man of whom his colleagues and all with whom he has been brought into contact have nothing but good to say, but he is not an expert. I believe he does not profess to be a horticultural expert. If he is to be at the head of the Department, and if the Department is really to gain the confidence of those who are employed in commercial horticultural industry, it is most desirable that he should be backed up by a really efficient scientific staff. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that there are to be eight other expert outdoor officials in this Department of Horticulture. It would be interesting to hear from him who these experts are to be. I think we may say this new Department is a matter for congratulation. We all know that there has been a great development of intensive cultivation during the past few years, with a considerable amount of profit to those who are engaged in that class of agricultural industry. But it is necessary that those gentlemen who are going to advise the lay head of this Department should have both scientific and practical knowledge of the work which the Department is to be asked to carry out. I understand that Professor Maxwell Lefroy was a candidate for the post of head of the Department. I am exceedingly sorry that it was found impossible for the Department to avail itself of his extremely valuable services. He is at present at the head of this work at the Imperial College of Science. He was for several years Imperial Entomologist in India, and previously he carried on work of a similar nature in the West Indies. He has repeatedly helped the Board in regard to questions of entomology, and I believe Mr. Rogers for some time last year attended his lectures. I regret that Mr. Lefroy could not be employed, and I hope it was not due to any parsimony on the part of the Board of Agriculture to save the difference between £800 and £l,000. It would be true economy to give the head of the Department a good salary rather than that a large number of smaller salaries should be spent on gentlemen who do not possess the requisite qualifications.
I turn now to the subject of small holdings. The Commissioners during the last twelve months have been increased from two to eight. I have never heard in this House any logical justification of so large an increase in these officials, and on looking at their report one naturally seeks to find in it some reason to justify the appointment of these gentlemen, and one seeks to find also what is to be the future scope of their activities. I find that in 1911 there were 77,000 acres of land applied for by intending or prospective small holders. That is rather more than half of the average during each of the preceding three years—that is to say, an average of something like 125,000 acres were applied for during each of the preceding three years. In 1911, under eight Commissioners, there were only 77,000 acres applied for.
Is that the average for the three years?
I think I put the case accurately when I say that during the preceding three years there were over-three times this acreage applied for.
Can the hon. Gentleman give the figures for the two preceding years without including the previous year, which was obviously exceptional?
I will do so if I have the opportunity before the close of the Debate. I admit that there was during the first complete year the largest demand for small holdings. These figures show that the demand has got gradually satisfied on the part of those persons who are really competent to work small holdings at an economic profit. That being so, I think one is justified in asking what these eight gentlemen are going to do in assisting to. carry on this work in connection with small holdings in future. It is remarkable that during the year 1911, whereas. 94,000 acres were let by the county councils, 32,000 acres were let by private owners direct to intending small holders. The Report is significant in praising the county councils generally for the ready way in which they have responded to the appeal of the Commissioners to oil the wheels of progress and to increase the number of persons in their areas in the occupation of small holdings. On the face of the Report itself it appears that neither the landowners nor the county councils as a whole can be seriously accused of not seeking to make this Act a real success. Of course, there are difficulties with regard to the larger farmers, as you may expect when you ask a person in any industry to entirely revise the scope of his industry at short notice in order to provide for the requirements of another person in the same industry who desires to carry it on as a competitor, though in a smaller way.
In 1911, out of 4,000 new applicants, only 28 per cent. were agricultural labourers. I do not know whether it is the policy of the Board to encourage to any great extent persons who are not agricultural labourers to become small holders, but, if so, I venture to think that they are going to get into some difficulties in the early future for this reason: Those persons who are not agricultural labourers are in many cases carrying on some kind of local business which necessitates their presence in a particular town or village, as a rule. It is admitted that it is becoming exceedingly hard to provide for the wants of prospective small holders—in other words, the Commissioners have to go further and further afield to find suitable land to meet their requirements, and these are just the persons who do not want to go further afield. They insist upon having their holdings, if at all, in the immediate locality. That is one of the difficulties if that class is going to be encouraged by the Board. On the other hand, so far as agricultural labourers are concerned, they have got experience, and in some cases they have got the capital. I cannot see why it is not possible to a greater extent to develop the colonisation system of buying a large quantity of land in a certain area, putting these agricultural labourers in that area, giving them every possible facility in the way of developing co-operative methods to enable them to buy their raw materials in the best way. In the way I suggest you can also provide these persons with small holdings at a reasonable rent, which you cannot do if you simply take one small detached portion of a farm and convert it into a small holding.
I think the House is entitled to have some definite statement of policy from the Board of Agriculture with regard to the sinking fund charges upon loans for small holdings. I do not think it is fair to small holders or to the ratepayers to leave the question in doubt as it is left at the present time. The Act of 1908 must have meant one thing or the other. It must have meant either that the sinking fund charges should be added to the small holder's rent, or, in other words, that the small holder should pay for the small holding, which will never be his; or it must have meant that the sinking fund should be charged to the ratepayers of the county in view of the fact that the land is gradually becoming county property. That being so, surely the Board ought to take a strong and firm line, and indicate plainly to the local authorities what is the proper interpretation of the Act, and what is the accepted policy of the Board. It is not fair to leave it to the discretion of the local authorities to decide themselves whether or not the sinking fund charges shall be borne in one way or the other. I think I am entitled to ask whether the Public Works Loans Commissioners have yet deflected from the course taken up two months ago, namely, to disallow all loans for such purposes where the sinking fund is charged against the ratepayers, and not against the small holders. It is a matter in which the Board of Agriculture and the Public Works Loans Commissioners ought to be brought into accord, and in which they ought to speak with one voice, unless the local authorities are to be seriously embarrassed.
5.0
I want to refer to the subject of agricultural education. When the right hon. Gentleman left the Education Department he very ingeniously made a bargain with that Department that in future the whole of the control of what has hitherto been called technical instruction in agriculture should be transferred from the Board of Education to the Board of Agriculture. He has lately issued a circular dealing with the matter, and the Board of Education has almost simultaneously issued a similar circular pointing out to local authorities that in future it is in no way responsible for providing Grants under Article 34 of the Technical Instruction Regulations for work of this character. The circular issued by the right hon. Gentleman has caused more embarrassment to the local education authorities than any circular ever issued by his Department, and I think the time has come when he should alleviate the very natural apprehensions which are felt. What he points out in the circular is that the Board of Agriculture, having obtained certain Grants from the Development Commissioners, are prepared to apply those Grants towards higher agricultural education, which is to be run in connection with farm institutes. The bulk of the work which is now being carried on by the county councils in this respect is not run in connection with farm institutes, at any rate in the South and West of England, though there are exceptions in the North, and most of them have expressed no particular desire to carry on the agricultural education in future in connection with farm institutes. But the right hon. Gentleman tells us not only that this money must be applied to farm institutes, or work similar to farm institutes, and also goes on to say that 25 per cent. of the capital cost would have to be borne by the ratepayers and also 50 per cent. of the cost of maintenance, but that not a single penny of this money shall be received by the local education authorities if it involves the expenditure of a penny less than they are at present expending upon agricultural education.
There are many counties, of which Wiltshire is as good an illustration as any other, in which there has been very large expenditure upon agricultural and technical instruction, largely of a peripatetic kind, most efficiently carried out, and these authorities, who have shown great progress in this respect because they are at present spending up to the hilt on agricultural education, are going to be prevented from getting any advantage from this Grant from the Development Commissioners because they literally cannot afford to spend any more, whereas more economical and less progressive local authorities will be able to get this Grant for the very reason that they have not expended so much, and therefore are able to make a greater claim upon the ratepayers without any rebellious feeling on the part of those who, very naturally, in view of present day burdens, so largely obstruct the progress of education of every character. Local education authorities are asking reasonably that at any rate they shall be given a Grant equivalent to that which they formerly enjoyed from the Board of Education to carry on the work in which they are now engaged without its being necessarily associated with what is to be called in future a farm institute. How does the right hon. Gentleman define farm institute? Lately it has gone forward, I believe not officially, that he is going to put a very liberal interpretation on the expression, and that possibly there need be no expenditure upon bricks and mortar at all. Personally, I believe, that if there were a larger expenditure upon true education and a little less expended upon bricks and mortar, education would be promoted to a greater extent than it is, with the condition precedent that large expenses in building must necessarily be incurred. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will make some statement to-day which, before it is too late, will ease the minds of those who are carrying on this useful work in regard to agricultural education in the various counties of England, and I would ask him to pay due regard to what his own Rural Education Conference has got to say on this matter.
That was a body set up largely by him self in order to afford a suitable link between the Board of Agriculture and the Board of Education on the one hand, and those two Departments and the agricultural industry on the other. I think, therefore, they are entitled, particularly as they have done an immense amount of useful work which has never been acknowledged in this House, both to receive some acknowledgment for the work which they have done and also to have their views listened to on a matter of such vital importance as this on which they are entitled to speak. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can to-day say definitely what line he proposes to take with regard to the report of the Depart mental Committee upon the position of sitting tenants on the sale of estates? The right hon. Gentleman is aware that there have been protests put forward from all the leading agricultural organisations during the last month as to what appears to be the policy of the Board with regard to the recommendations of this Committee. They made, I think, eight recommendations, the most important of them being in favour of State-aided purchase. That recommendation appeared not to find favour with the right hon. Gentleman or the Government, but it is worthy of mention that it was made unanimously by all the members of the Committee which was largely composed of well known Liberals, and yet that particular scheme put forward by that Committee appears to be entirely ignored. The right hon. Gentleman may possibly suggest that this question is out of order, but what I ask is not how the Bill, which is at present before the House of Lords, should be dealt with, but what is the policy of the Board with regard to the particular grievance which this Departmental Committee was appointed to consider? The agricultural tenant has a very real grievance. It is founded upon the inadequacy of Section 11 of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908, which prevents him getting proper compensation upon his being dispossessed for any reason other than—
The hon. Member is referring to a subject which would appear to involve legislation, and indeed I do not see how it could be dealt with without it.
I carefully avoided referring to the legislation which is at present in a very attenuated form before the other House, but I think I am justified in asking what is the policy of the Board in regard to this particular grievance to which the Committee gave expression? In other words, is the Board going to be content with this Departmental Bill, which has not yet come down to this House, or is the Board going by administration or legislation to carry out the other recommendations in the Committee? I would like to impress upon the right hon. Gentleman that the agricultural community generally are feeling very sore on this subject, and have very well-defined views upon it, and the right hon. Gentleman, as official head of the industry, should take into account what are the views of the leading farmers upon this subject, and so demonstrate not merely his sympathy with the industry, but his sympathy with the real needs of the industry, as represented by those who are in occupation of agricultural holdings. I understand that he is making a point, though I do not know how he is going to find time to do it, of visiting farms all over the country in order to find out what farmers really want. I do not think that he will carry on that agricultural progress, which is worthy of Arthur Young, which nowadays an overburdened Minister has not much time to carry on. But if he does, I am quite certain he will find that nine out of every ten tenant farmers whom he visits will make a real demand for some alteration in the position in which a tenant farmer finds himself when he is dispossessed for reasons other than those connected with good husbandry. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he cannot do something to promote further legislation to add to the words "in connection with good husbandry" in the above Section, the words "or in the event of a sale taking place for which the tenant farmer is in no way responsible."
I wish to endorse what has been said by my hon. Friend. It is not every Member who has the advantage of being qualified to give an address to the Veterinary Society, and I am sure that few of us could diagnose a case of parasitic mange. Still, whatever views my hon. Friend puts forward on the subject of animal physiology and pathology must be sound. But I desire to support in a word or two his deductions as to the county councils. Many of them have been exemplary in their administration of the Small Holdings Act. Some have been notoriously good. The county of Norfolk is, I think, at the head. Some counties, on the other hand, have been notoriously backward. I desire to remind my right hon. Friend that the Act provides the means of accelerating the speed at which small holdings may be provided. After this length of time there are cases in which those powers might with advantage be used by him. He cannot be ignorant, though no one who is not a Member for an agricultural constituency can be fully aware, of the enormous number of men who were approved of several years ago for capacity and character, and also for the capital at their disposal, and still are waiting for the holdings that long ago have been promised. On the point of the loan I would like warmly to support my hon. Friend on the question by whom the loan or part of it should be repayable. I think it would give a welcome sense of strength to the policy of my right hon. Friend if a more definite lead were given to the county councils than has been given already. There is one other point in connection with small holdings. We were given to hope two years ago that we should see a Government Bill organising the creation of agricultural co-operative societies. I would like to thank my right hon. Friend for the increased help which was given to agricultural organisation societies, but the Bill seems to have disappeared. I hope it will not be long before we hear something hopeful from him on that score.
I wish to call attention to another branch of the work of the Board of Agriculture—namely, fisheries, for which, considering its importance, not enough time has been allowed for discussion in this House. This is a much more urgent question than would be gathered from the discussions upon it in Committee of this House. It is urgent economically, because the sea fisheries mean a produce of no less than £8,000,000 a year, and some 100,000 men are employed in them. It is a hygenic question, because the fishing population is a great contributor to national health. And also it is a question of national defence. I will not elaborate that point, because Governments in close friendship with us, particularly the Governments of France and Japan, have set a lead in encouraging sea fisheries, and particularly inshore fisheries, with a special view to manning the Navy. I think the Admiralty is equally interested with my right hon. Friend who is here to-day. I think that this Motion should be supported on the ground that there has been a distinct neglect of fishing interests. The Reports of the Department of Fisheries in recent years have been, not only one, but two years in arrear, and I am very glad that my right hon. Friend is speeding them up. Still, there has been great remissness. The amount spent on research has been paltry, particularly in regard to inshore fisheries. I wish to urge on the right hon. Gentleman that there is no reason why we should be far behind most other civilised countries, and almost all the Northern States of Europe, in organising by means of societies, or by Grants, for supplying motor power and other modern advantages. We are behind, not only small States, which have more time to look after their internal interests, but we are far behind Sweden, Norway, Germany, France, Ireland, and Canada. A great authority on these matters, Mr. Stephen Reynolds, who is not only a writer but a practical fisherman, said:— mean taking away any source of production from the capitalist fishing at all, whereas in the case of farming it must be done. In the case of fishing it very likely means that if you protect the inshore-waters more thoroughly you are actually benefiting the capitalist fishing, because at present fishing suffers very much from neglect of protection and from injury to spawning from trawling within the three-mile limit. It is sound economics to organise if we can, so that we may have greater prosperity among the small men. I would ask my right hon. Friend if he cannot see his way to support some such proposals as these. Can he establish a Department of the Board specially charged with the interests of the inshore men, and will he appoint officers, who would be virtually corresponding to the Small Holding Commissioners, to be attached to the new Department, which might be known as the Inshore Fishery Department? I hope he will be able to tell us that he is applying to the Development Commissioners for financial help in several directions, particularly in the establishment of co-operative societies, for purchase, for credit, for insurance, and, if he can do it, for marketing. Fishermen are at a peculiar disadvantage in regard to insurance. Ordinarily societies refuse to insure them, while the co-operative societies are in a position adequately to guard against fraudulent claims. Of course they are at the mercy now, to a very great extent, of interests which are rather hostile to theirs.
Every argument for this form of assistance which can be applied to farming applies with even greater force to small fishermen. The facilities for working societies are greater; the men are working more closely together; they are constantly meeting, and they are very familiar with each other, and possibly too familiar with each other's affairs. A great deal has, been done for special projects in Ireland by means of loans, which have proved to be very sound. There has been, I think on the whole, not more than 2 per cent. of bad debts arising out of the loans made by the Congested Districts Board for fishery purposes in Ireland. There is another possible means of economic improvement which will occur to those who know the shell-fishing grounds in the estuaries of Wales, for instance, and the great cockle fisheries in the Wash. We in this House are unfortunately too unfamiliar with the advantage of this trade, but cockles and mussels form not such an insignificant trade as might be supposed from our experience in the dining room of this House. It is becoming a considerable trade in Manchester and Liverpool, and there is the very interesting experiment of a system of alloted grounds in the tidal waters of the Wash, which has led to a very great increase in the output. In regard to that subject one cannot avoid a word on a question of the three-mile limit. It seems to be beyond the powers of the Fisheries Committees adequately to police the three-mile limit. It is now more than a year since Sir Edward Strachey, as he was then, and who was Under-Secretary, announced to us with some confidence, the desire of the Board that a sum of £50,000, or a very large annual subsidy, should be laid out in providing an adequate number of cruisers to protect the boats and preserve the grounds within the limit. Everyone knows the very great extent of damage that arises from illegitimate trawling, and I do think there is a case for Grants-in-Aid to a much greater extent than hitherto, because I think that not more than two Fishery Committees—the Western and the Eastern Fishery Committees—were able, even in any sense, adequately to ward off foreign and large trawlers.
The question of the three-mile limit itself is one, I suppose, which we are not at liberty to raise, but it certainly is the case, that up to a distance of sometimes eight miles, there are good grounds for lobster fishing, and for crab pots, which are seriously injured now by trawlers. I am very glad that my right hon. Friend has the question of the three-mile limit in hand. Another point which I think deserves attention, has reference to small fish and varieties of shell fish, and the point I desire to raise is that there should be regulations dealing with the sale of such fish at the markets, rather than that there should be local regulations which sometimes prevent the local men from landing small fish, while small fish which have been trawled outside the limit, are actually brought in and sold. There is also the difficulty in which members of the Committees find themselves in attending the meetings. It is not every man who can afford a whole day off, and in some cases it is half a day's journey to reach the place of meeting This is a point which interests several Members of the House, and some of them I see here to-day. I think there is an urgent case for assisting the fishery members in regard to expenses involved by attending the meetings. I think there are strong grounds, not sentimental, but economic grounds, for urging the President of the Board of Agriculture to take up this very neglected Department of his work with an activity it has never known before, and to do all he can to protect—as in fact other Governments do—the industry of the inshore fishermen. It is not only fostering an economic asset, but it would also be doing something to preserve the class of men whose diminution would really be a national loss.
My object in rising this afternoon is to ask permission to call attention for a few moments to the Memorandum issued by the Board of Agriculture, which deals with the advances made by the Development Commissioners to the Board for various purposes. Among those purposes is the important one of light horsebreeding. But, before I deal with that, may I be permitted to say one word in reference to some observations which fell from my hon. Friend behind me with regard to some of the cattle diseases which have been prevalent at different times in this country, and more particularly with regard to one of them, namely, swine fever. I have carefully followed year by year, for a considerable time, the reports which we receive from the Board of Agriculture on these matters, and it has always seemed to me that, unfortunately, not only has no real progress been made in stamping out the disease of swine fever, but on the contrary, and certainly within a very recent date, that disease appears to have been becoming gradually and steadily worse. That is very disheartening, and it shows the right hon. Gentleman who has just acceded to his present post, on which I venture to congratulate both him and ourselves, that in this matter he has a very difficult task to deal with; and it is all the more disheartening because of the successful manner in which cattle diseases, pleuropneumonia, foot-and-mouth, and other diseases, have been treated in the past. It is quite true that at this moment there is another of those unfortunate outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in the country, but I have no doubt it will be met with the same energy and promptitude that signalised the treatment of those outbreaks in the past. I heartily wish that the right hon. Gentleman may be as successful in shortly extirpating this disease of swine fever. With regard to swine fever, it does seem to me that the time has come when its increasing gravity points to the desirability of considering at all events some change in the present methods of treatment. What change ought to be made I am not in a position to say, nor would I attempt to lay down for a moment to the right hon. Gentleman, who has at his command the best available advice in the country. It appears to me, however, that under all the circumstances it has become useless to persevere in the present methods unless he can ascertain some reason for the failure which would warrant further steps to proceed in the same direction as is being done at the present time. The general question seems to require most careful consideration, and especially as to the mode or methods by which this disease can be extirpated. I will say nothing on another subject raised by an hon. Friend, tempting as it is, as to how the difficulty is to be met which arises from the largely increased sale of landed properties in this country so as to place outgoing tenants in a more fortunate position than they are placed at present. If I endeavoured to do so it is quite clear I should be transgressing the Rule of Order.
I turn to the question of light horse breeding, a subject which has always possessed for me the liveliest possible interest, and to which for a great many years I have given a great deal of attention. I may perhaps remind the Committee that so long ago as in the early 'seventies, I raised this question, I believe for the first time in this House. One result of that Debate was the appointment of a Royal Commission on Horse Breeding, of which I was one of the original members, and of which I continued to remain a member, taking an active part in all its proceedings, until it was merged in the new Committee which was the outcome of the arrangement made, and made, I frankly confess, with much more liberal treatment than the question had ever received before by His Majesty's present advisers, namely, of the Committee which has been appointed by the Board of Agriculture as a consultative body for the consideration and distribution of Grants which have been placed at their disposal by the present Administration. In connection with that subject, may I remind the Committee that in 1910 the Board applied for an advance from the Development Fund in respect of schemes for the improvement of light horse breeding, and in January of the following year the Treasury, on the recommendation of the Development Commissioners, sanctioned an advance of £39,800, to be expended generally on the lines of the scheme proposed by the Board and used as follows. Various items are given for which money has been advanced by the Development Commissioners: one of those items is £5,000 for the purchase of stallions. Further on I find, amongst the schemes of the Board of Agriculture for 1912–13, another item, namely, £4,500 for the purchase and maintenance of stallions.
I desire to raise this question, because the great difficulty we have always had in former days has arisen in this way. For a vast number of years now foreign countries have been alive to the advantage and necessity of having a first-class breed of horses of their own. That began a great many years ago, and it was allowed to go on for some time without much attention. The result has been that for a great number of years this country has been swept of all its most valuable animals, both stallions and mares, by foreign Governments, and very often those animals have been purchased at prices with which it was quite impossible for private enterprise in this country to compete. I do not know whether I should be out of order in giving an illustration of what has been going on for all these years, and which came within my own knowledge in this House. It was in the days when the late Viscount Ossington was Speaker of this House. He was a consummate judge and a great lover of horses of all kinds and description. At that time there was a great sale occurring of all the animals belonging to the late Mr. Blenkiron, numbering such horses as Blair Athol, and many others. The Speaker one day called me to the Chair, and said, "Are you going to this great sale of Mr. Blenkiron's, and would you do a Commission for me?" I replied, "With the greatest pleasure in the world," and then he said, "I want you to buy Bredalbane. I am ready to give a great price for him, solely and entirely for the use of tenant farmers in Nottinghamshire.' I said," There will be great competition from foreigners. What are you prepared to give?" He said, "I will give £2,000."I said," I am afraid you will have a very difficult antagonist in the German Commissioner." He could hardly believe it. I may mention, and I know all about this, that Bredalbane was a racehorse, and a more valuable animal for country purposes it would have been impossible to imagine. He was made for that. He was a moderate racehorse and nothing more. The late Speaker, Mr. Denison as he then was, who was one of the best judges in England, and a country gentleman with admirable knowledge of form and everything connected with horses, determined to give that price in order to get the animal. What was the result? He was bought by the German Government for £6,000, a price with which it was impossible for anybody with ordinary means to compete, when he required him for purposes where the horse's fee would be a pound or thirty shillings.
I give that as an illustration of what has been going on in this country for the past thirty years, and why it is that in the opinion of many of those who are the best judges that the breed of horses has greatly deteriorated within that time. Owing to the fund which has been placed at the disposal of the Board of Agriculture, acting upon the advice of their Committee, we have the opportunity, to a certain extent, of remedying this. I am not prepared to say, though I should like to see the sum allocated for the purchase of stallions larger than it is, that a great deal of good cannot be done if the money is properly used even with the sum placed at their disposal, and for this reason: Animals of the best kind, with power, substance, and bone and action, as well as quality, and thoroughbred, of course, are not bred, except in very small numbers, every year. I have a long experience which has convinced me that there are not more than four or five or six animals of that class bred every year that I should care to buy as real high-class country stallions, and probably £5,000 used betimes might secure nearly all those horses year by year for the use of this country in future, instead of their going abroad one after another, as they do now, and performing their duties in foreign countries instead of our own. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, if he is in a position to answer now, how many stallions have been purchased for this purpose out of the advances which were sanctioned in January, 1911, and whether those that have been purchased are thoroughbred horses, and, if they are not all thoroughbred, how many are half-bred, and whether any record of their pedigree is kept, and, if so, whether we can be favoured some time or another with their names and descriptions and pedigree, if possible? I should like also to inquire whether there is any record kept of horses of that class that still continue to go abroad, and whether, if that is not done, some arrangement could be made by which we should be able to know how many of those valuable animals continue to leave the country in the future?
If the right hon. Gentleman could give us information on those points I believe that it would be very advantageous and a matter of great interest to those who are interested and thoroughly understand this subject. I think I have said nearly all it is necessary for me to say on this point, but I do not forget for a moment the importance of the question of mares. Very liberal provision is made for mares and more liberal than is made for horses-Personally, however, after long experience of this matter, I attach primary importance to retaining the very best horses in the country, in the first instance, and one reason is this: A horse of that class, if he becomes what you call a country travelling stallion, as a rule leads to from fifty to a hundred mares. It is not uncommon for an old Yorkshire travelling stallion to have one hundred foals in the year. Another reason why I attach so much importance to the horse is this, that there is some difficulty in these days in getting farmers, I understand, to take up breeding again, even where mares are offered to them. I have heard many people make complaints—I cannot say for myself whether they are reliable or not—but I have heard it said by excellent judges that there is more and more difficulty in getting farmers to resume breeding as they used to do, and though supplied with good mares for the purpose—that it is not so readily taken up as it used to be in former days. I know of no remedy for that except to do all that we can to give them in some way or another what is called a quick return. I have always advocated that there should be a lavish distribution of prizes for foals. It would not mean a very great sum if prizes were largely given for foals at the different agricultural shows in the country, but I believe it would have a very considerable-effect. If the number of prizes available were largely increased, there would be a prospect, or at all events a possibility, of a quick return for a certain number of people every year. All these are matters which are now in the hands of a Committee the members of which are very well able to judge for themselves, and to form an opinion as to the best course to be adopted. It is not for me to dictate to them, but I make this suggestion which has answered in my own experience in former days, because it seems to me at all events to be one means which might induce farmers to take up the matter more readily than they do at present. No one will rejoice more heartily than myself if by the action of those who are now responsible, aided for the first time in this country by liberal assistance from the Government of the day, anything really substantial is done to place the English breed of horses on something more like the footing it used to occupy when I was first interested in the subject.
I desire to call attention to one or two causes of rural depopulation and to ask whether some practical steps cannot be taken to provide a remedy. I recognise the great value of the Small Holdings Act, and how much is done to improve the prospects and position of those who have been able to avail themselves of that Act; but it is perfectly true that there are to-day many applicants who have been long approved but are still waiting for the opportunity to get a piece of land. Even when they all get land, the number that can benefit in this way will be comparatively small. One of the greatest drawbacks to the villages of England is the scarcity of cottages. The hon. Member opposite (Mr. C. Bathurst) referred to the importance of good housing for pigs, and the necessity for their receiving proper attention. I have not a word to say in detraction of that observation, but it is infinitely more important that some attention should be given to the question of rural housing. Not only is there an insufficiency of houses, but the quality is, in many cases, excessively bad. I do not look for any remedy from Government Grants or subsidies towards making good this deficiency. If the labourers could pay an economic rent I am perfectly certain the houses would be supplied; but with wages on the present scale that is absolutely impossible. Rural depopulation will not be arrested while such wages are paid as will not provide the bare necessities of life. The problem will never be solved until a living wage is paid. The farmers are doing very much better to-day than in former years. In fact, they are doing comparatively well and making fair profits. But the wages of the agricultural labourers have not been raised; they are not sharing in the better times that are now being enjoyed by the farming industry. When we remember that in many parts of England the wages of agricultural labourers do not amount to more than 13s. or 15s. a week, and that the wages are not only low, but uncertain—
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I do not see how the Board of Agriculture can remedy the position of affairs that he is putting before the Committee. We have to deal only with such matters as come within the administrative sphere of action of the President of the Board of Agriculture. If the hon. Gentleman can suggest any way in which the right hon. Gentleman can raise the wages he will be in order.
I am about to make a suggestion. I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will consider the possibility or advisability of applying wages boards to agricultural labourers. I am told that it is a legislative matter. This House has legislated for certain trades, and I wish to know whether wages boards cannot be applied to this important industry of agriculture, where wages are depressed below the level of a living wage. If the President can give me an assurance that something will be done in that direction I shall be glad.
We shall all agree with the hon. Member opposite that an increased supply of cottages in the country is greatly needed, and that increased wages, if they could be obtained, would be most desirable. The Board of Agriculture, in asking for a Grant from the Development Commissioners to be devoted to the improvement of agriculture, are doing something towards raising the prospects of agriculture, and therefore tending to raise the wages of agricultural labourers. I think we ought to congratulate the Board of Agriculture on having been successful in obtaining so large a Grant from the Development Commission. They have secured promises of no less than £91,000 to be spent on various objects beneficial to agriculture. The largest Grant is for the encouragement of light horse breeding. My right hon. Friend (Mr. Chaplin) has entered fully into that subject, and it would be ridiculous for anybody in my position to make any comment upon a speech made by one so qualified to discuss the question. I should like the President of the Board of Agriculture to state what success has attended the efforts of various local authorities to obtain a supply of brood mares. The Committee will agree that while a supply of thoroughly sound stallions of the right class is essential, it is also of great importance that some of the most suitable brood mares should be retained in this country, instead of being allowed to be bought up on every possible occasion by buyers from abroad. As £11,000 is to be devoted to the purchase of mares, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give some information as to the success which has attended the efforts of various local authorities in this direction. The large sum of £25,000 is to be spent upon agricultural research. That is an object most worthy of the money to be spent upon it. I would suggest that as much of that research as possible should he carried out in various localities. Though a farmer may be very keen to adopt new methods of husbandry, or new scientific processes that are brought before his eyes, he is always a little sceptical about scientific work in another part of the country. If these scientific experiments could be carried out as much as possible in different parts, they would bring home to the farmer himself the results of accurate scientific processes, and he would be much more likely in the long run to be encouraged to carry them out himself than he will be if the experiments are conducted only at certain centres, such as the various agricultural colleges throughout the country.?
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What is the policy of the Board as regards the promotion of forestry? The Estimates include a sum of £4,700 to be expended in this direction. We have been told that the Board intend to carry out before very long certain works of afforestation for the purpose of relieving unemployment. What is the general policy of the Board on this question? We are all agreed that in a great many cases the woods of this country have been seriously neglected for a generation past. It is high time there were some people with accurate forestry knowledge who could go about the country and give advice to the owners of existing woods as to the best and most scientific way in which to cultivate their woods. If there was some system by which, for the expenditure of a small fee, people could get really good advice, not only with regard to their existing woods, but also as to the best kind of trees to plant in various parts of the country, it would not cost very much, and it would tend to find further employment for people in agricultural districts during the winter months. As regards small holdings, I should like some justification for the increased number of Small Holdings Commissioners. The number of applicants for small holdings has been much less during the last year than in any previous year. None the less it has been necessary, as the result of pres-sure on the part of Members opposite, largely to increase the number of Small Holdings Commissioners. Instead of having two Small Holdings Commissioners with two Assistant Commissioners, the Board have eight Commissioners, at an increased cost to the country of £3,200 a year. I wish to know whether the country is getting value for its money in this respect. I should have thought that the number of applicants for small holdings being on the decrease there would be less need for Commissioners, and therefore no real necessity for increasing the number of the permanent staff of the Small Holdings Commission. I hope we shall have some sound reason given us for this increase. I would like also to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government have any report to give from those appointed to inquire into and advise upon the most suitable class of building to be erected on the small holdings? It is of very great importance that there should be some standard, not only for the buildings, but also for the cottages which, while providing adequate accommodatnon, and I hope not being of too repulsively ugly a character, nevertheless would be erected at a comparatively cheap rate, and so considerably tend to diminish the amount of the sinking funds of the county councils. I have not yet seen any report on the inquiry to which I refer, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will do his very best to get the Committee to report as early as possible. I am sure that any practical suggestions that they have to make will be a very great advantage to every authority or private individual who is attempting to encourage small holdings throughout the counties.
In respect to foot-and-mouth disease, I wonder if the Government can give us any more information as to where these various outbreaks come from? Of course, it is well known to them that a great many of the countries on the Continent are practically reeking with this disease, and it is most important that every possible step should be taken to prevent these very frequent outbreaks of disease in this country. It is a large order to suggest that the hay and straw coming from the Continent should be limited, but if these outbreaks are continued, I am not at all certain that some such drastic measure will not have to be taken before very long; because as soon as an outbreak occurs here the ports of the Argentine are closed to British cattle and sheep. I would ask whether some representation could not be made to the Argentine Government as to whether they cannot in some way relax the restrictions which they now place upon the importation into their country of British sheep and cattle. I do not know whether it will be possible to persuade them to reduce the period of six months after the country has been notified as free from disease, or whether they will be at all likely to agree with this suggestion after these recurring outbreaks in this country. But would it not be possible to suggest to the Argentine Government, if an outbreak occurs in the North of England or, say, Scotland, that it is not absolutely essential for the safety of the flocks and herds in the Argentine that no cattle or sheep should be exported from English southern ports? I hope if that point is brought before the Argentine Government it may meet with some success.
I want to say a word or two about farm institutes. There is a good deal of misapprehension in the country as to what is meant by a farm institute. I must confess that when I first heard the Government were encouraging farm institutes I thought that they intended to set up a series of model farms. I believe I am correct in saying that that is not the intention of the Board of Agriculture. I can only say that I heartily rejoice to hear it, because most people with experience of model farms know that while model farms may be model in a great many senses, one in which usually a model farm is not model is in the matter of the balance sheet at the end of the year. If you are going to have farm institutes to be of practical service to farmers, they must show to the farmers a balance on the right side at the end of the year. But I gather from the circular that has been sent out to local authorities by the Board of Agriculture that it is not at all events the present intention of the Board of Agriculture to set up what are termed model farms. What I understand the intention is, is for these institutes to serve the purpose of forming a sort of centre for competent teachers who are to go about the country, and also to form a sort of centre where various courses of lectures can be held during various months of the year. That may be a very desirable thing, but there is one serious objection to the present proposal of the Board. That is that those counties which have spent considerable sums of money in the past and are spending them now on peripatetic lecturers, are not to be better treated than other counties which have not spent a single penny upon agricultural education. That, to my mind, is most unfair to. those counties who have tried to do something, and most discouraging to anybody who has anything to do with the matter. One of the conditions on which Grants will be made to the local authority is that the local authority is to find 25 per cent. of any capital expenditure, and also a specified percentage for maintenance.
That condemns the whole scheme at once in the eyes of the farmers. The farmer sees at once a further increase in the rates. I do not know what the experience of hon. Members opposite is with farmers and the rates, but my own experience is that any increase of any sort or kind in the rates is enough to put the whole body of farmers against a scheme at once, and they are quite regardless of the fact, as some one may try to prevail upon them to see, that in the long run any certain scheme may be to their benefit. If these farming institutes are to be a success at all, the whole expense of them ought to be borne by the Board of Agriculture—certainly in the case of those counties who have done their best already out of the rates, and who have spent considerable sums. I would also urge upon the Board not to be in a hurry to start these farm institutes, but to wait until they have discovered the feeling of the country by peripatetic lecturers. Some counties have had peripatetic lecturers going about for years with very considerable success. After the first time or two they have managed to stir up a considerable amount of interest amongst the young farmers in the work If that is done, there may be a demand for a farm institute or centre for a staff of lecturers to carry on further courses of instruction. I would urge upon the Board, before they embark upon this capital expenditure in farm institutes, that they should prepare the ground by sending these lecturers about. I would also urge them to encourage the counties in some cases to group themselves together, so that the advantage of special lecturers whose time in one county may only be occupied for two or three months shall be obtained for the benefit of the others, and so a really good staff got together between the counties, and the whole of the various subjects necessary takes.
I would like to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to a disadvantage which small holders labour under. I believe the matter has been touched upon this afternoon. I refer to the way the small holders are assessed for rating purposes. I know it is in accordance with the Regulations laid down, but under present conditions small holdings are assessed above the amount of the actual rent payable for the value of the land, for managing expenses, and also for a sinking fund. This falls very hardly upon that class of men who are adopting a new pursuit. I would urge upon my right hon. Friend to see whether some means cannot be adopted whereby the rateable value of small holdings shall be assessed in accordance with what the rent would be if the land were used for ordinary political purposes. I know in the county of Shropshire that this difference is being felt to prejudice small holdings. I addressed a question upon this matter to my right hon. Friend, and in reply I was asked to address the question to the President of the Local Government Board. The reply I got from that right hon. Gentleman was that this was a matter that would require legislation. In order to popularise small holdings I would urge upon my right hon. Friend to do all he can to see that these small holders do not suffer the disadvantage that they are at present experiencing.
It is quite apparent from the speeches already delivered that the question of agricultural education is receiving a great deal more consideration to-day than it did previously. The projected transference of rural technical education from the Board of Education to the Board of Agriculture is a departure that is watched with great interest and some anxiety in the country. Personally, I am inclined to the opinion that there is a good deal to be said for the departure. Whilst I would not advocate that the rural population should be cut off from the ordinary forms of education which make for the higher kind of culture—which, after all, is what we understand to be real life—nevertheless I agree that education in our agricultural districts should have perhaps a greater regard for the actualities of the surroundings and the future of the children in those districts. Therefore we shall on subsequent occasions watch these developments with considerable interest. In my observations I intend to give some little consideration to the present condition of the small holdings movement. As it has been touched upon by several speakers it will not be necessary for me to occupy much time. In reading through a Report on small holdings, I think we have some cause for gratification. I do not know where the hon. Gentlemen opposite get their figures from when they make the statement that the number of applications for land shows a reduction. I have refreshed my memory since I heard that statement, and I find that the Report shows that the demand for land shows no diminution either in regard to the actual number of applications or to the amount of land that has been supplied. The Commissioners report that there is a considerable unsatisfied demand, and they say that the prospect as that the more efficiently the Act is administered, the more that demand will be stimulated. I feel that the Committee will agree that the placing of desirable persons on the land should be encouraged as far as possible.
I am glad to know that the county with which I am myself associated occupies a proud position here also. Norfolk, I believe, has secured the largest amount of land for approved applicants, but there is still a very strong demand for land manifested among the people of Norfolk, and therefore, while to-day I am glad to acknowledge that considerable improvement has taken place, we ought still to proceed with the good work and offer every encouragement to the people to make application and to get land. On the other hand, there are a number of county councils who, for various reasons, lag woefully behind. It is small consolation to tell people in other parts of the country of the great success that has been achieved in Norfolk and Devon. We have to repeat again that some of the county councils of the country are not as energetic in the performance of their business as they ought to be. I never make any sweeping charge against the constitution of our county councils. I believe in the main they are composed of gentlemen of very great ability, who are actuated by high public motives. I know many of them have devoted a considerable amount of time and capacity to the routine work of these councils. Nevertheless, they are hardly the type of gentleman who will engage in sweeping reform or the comprehensive application of such a measure as the Small Holdings Act, and thus the people who are more immediately concerned have not a proper opportunity of expressing themselves upon these county councils. It is almost impossible for a poor man, or a person of small means, to sit upon a county council and do the work of that body. Therefore, it is particularly incumbent upon Parliament to have regard to the interests of those classes because of the disability under which they live in respect to their representatives on the county council, and that must be one of our main reasons for insisting that the House of Commons shall exercise all possible pressure upon those local authorities to carry out the beneficent provisions of such legislation as the Small Holdings Act.
I find that whereas the County Council of Norfolk has satisfied some 711 applicants under the Small Holdings Act, such county councils as that of West Sussex has found land for only seven, and while I might be prepared to acknowledge that in the latter case the difficulty may have been greater than in that of Norfolk, nevertheless the disparity is so great that we are bound to convict such county councils of some negligence in the performance of their duty. On reading through the report I experienced some encouragement. We have now the fact that some 12,000 applicants have had their needs settled. Perhaps, with their dependence that represents a population of some 60,000 people, a body of people mainly, I believe, dependent upon small wages and fluctuating employment. Their lives, owing to the operation of this measure, are fuller and richer because of this work. If such be the case, I submit there is all the more reason why the Board of Agriculture should stimulate the county councils to increased activity in that direction. I should like to associate myself with one or two speakers who have referred to the undoubted grievance that exists in respect of the sinking fund charges. Earlier in the Session, on a private Member's Motion, this point secured very considerable ventilation. I think the county councils, as well as Parliament, are entitled to guidance from the Board of Agriculture in this matter. We are told that as it is still undetermined whether county councils may, if they like, bear the sinking fund charges and relieve the tenants accordingly, I said on that occasion that it was entirely unjust to place this charge upon the tenants. A fair rent, in my opinion, is a rent for the actual use of the land. If we place a heavier charge upon the people over and above that which is reasonable for the use of the land, then, in my opinion, it becomes an unfair rent. I think a solution might ultimately be come to along the lines of division of the liability as between the local authorities and the Board of Agriculture. I do not think we can get away from the fact that the local authority is bound to benefit from the increased rateable value of the land due to its higher cultivation, and that certainly they should be called upon to contribute some share in this responsibility. For my own part, I have to protest against this unfair charge being placed upon the tenants, and I associate myself most thoroughly with those hon. Members who have requested the Board of Agriculture to make some definite and reliable pronouncement upon that point.
I want to make reference to a paragraph in the Small Holdings Report on page 9. I do not know whether my interpretation of it is correct, but it appears to me to represent an intention on the part of the Board of Agriculture to discourage the building of cottages in connection with the supply of small holdings. It states that attempts have been made to utilise the Small Holdings Act for the purpose of providing cottages rather than land. When the Small Holdings Bill was before the House of Commons it was set forth as one not merely for the provision for small holdings or allotments, but one for the general revival of rural life. If I interpret this paragraph aright it means that if the Board have a suspicion that the applicant's primary motive is to secure a cottage rather than land the application will be discouraged. On the other hand, if the Board believes that the primary demand is for land, and that the cottage is but a part of the natural equipment of the small holding, the Board does not place any discouragement in the way. It seems to me that all we have to do then is to advise applicants to apply for land with a cottage as part of the equipment of that land. On the other hand, if the applicant were so ill-informed or unwise as to make application for a cottage as a primary demand with land attached, then their application is not likely to be encouraged. I think the Board of Agriculture would be very unwise in placing any unnecessary obstacles in the way. We have the assurance of the Commissioners in this Report, that all the small holdings that have been supplied up to the present are thoroughly well served, and that they are in every sense a complete success. We cannot get away from the fact that in our rural districts the housing conditions are still extremely bad. I am not going to discuss the question of the administration of the Housing Acts, because that comes under the Local Government Board Vote, but nevertheless we are familiar with the fact that the question of rural housing is one of prime importance and great gravity. I submit the Board of Agriculture should not include anything in their report to discourage housing in the way I have mentioned.
I have always felt it to be a case of considerable gratification that under the Small Holdings Act more houses have been built than under the Housing Acts. In the twenty-two years since the passing of the Housing Act of 1890 only 200 houses were built by the local authorities, and since the Housing Act of 1909, while 1,689 houses have been condemned as insanitary only 153 have been erected by rural district councils, whereas under the Small Holdings Act, with cottage accommodation as part of the equipment of small holdings, I believe that nearly 1,000 cottages have been built. The provision of cottages in connection with small holdings is one of the main hopes of our rural population, and I respectfully express the hope that the paragraph to which I have referred is not intended to be a discouragement to the provision of cottages in our rural areas. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, although this is a question of legislation, whether it is the intention of the Board to proceed with Lord Carrington's Tenant Right Bill. I do not intend to argue the point at all; the desirability of such a measure is well understood in all quarters of the House, and I think an indication as to whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed with this matter would give general satisfaction.
I have had submitted to me on behalf of the fruit growers in that part of the country from which I come a communication in respect to American gooseberry mildew. Unlike some other hon. Members of the House, I have not their expert knowledge of agricultural or horticultural diseases, and I am sure they will pardon me if I do not give an expert statement of the case. But I am informed that this disease only made its appearance in the Eastern counties about the middle of last year, and that the fruit growers are consistently and conscientiously carrying out the instructions of the Board of Agriculture with a view to eradicating the disease. They have been wonderfully successful in diminishing the spread of that disease, and my information goes to show that the disease is practically non-existent, although it has revealed itself here and there. The fruit growers represent to me that they are entitled to greater elasticity in the administration of the Board's regulations. They feel that as they are doing; everything they possibly can to stamp out the disease and prevent its recurrence, and have been wonderfully successful in their efforts, they ought not to be threatened with legal proceedings if the disease does show itself from time to time, especially having regard to the fact, which they emphasise, that it was only in the beginning of last year that the disease made itself manifest to them, and, of course, they have not had sufficient time to carry out the whole of the instructions of the Board of Agriculture. They fully recognise that all attempts to stamp out the disease ought to be made, and they claim that they are doing their best to carry out the instructions of the Board, and they simply request that a little' more elasticity should be accorded them and that they should not be subjected to legal proceedings when doing their very best to meet the desires of the Board. I shall not occupy any more time of the Committee except to say that, after reading through the Report of the Small Holdings Commissioners, I find a considerable source of gratification, and I simply trust that the success that has crowned this work in the past year or two may be a stimulus to the Board to increase its efforts, because I know from personal experience that a considerable proportion of our rural population look forward to the provision of small holdings as giving them the means of a very desirable betterment in their lives. As regards the appointment of the Commissioners, I feel that hon. Gentlemen opposite are entitled to ask for some justification, but I do not think I need to justify their appointment. The marked success of the last year or two seems to me to justify the appointment of those Commissioners, and I hope the good work they have already accomplished will be greatly increased in the future.
I am very deeply concerned about the success of two applications which have been made for a Grant from the Development Fund by the two Sea Fisheries Committees of Devon and Cornwall, a Grant to facilitate the provision of auxiliary motor power for fishing boats. The procedure in connection with these applications is rather complicated. In the first place, the application has to be sent to the Treasury, which, after consideration, passes it on to the Department concerned, which in this case is the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries. Then the Board of Agriculture make observations upon it, and pass it on to the Development Commissioners. These two particular applications have been delayed at the Treasury in consequence of a question put by an hon. Gentleman opposite questioning the legality of the Grant for such purposes under the Bill. Consequently consideration has been hung up for two or three months because it was found necessary to obtain a legal opinion from the Law Officers of the Crown. I recognise that I am not justified in discussing that point, but I think the delay in obtaining that legal opinion shows that our legal officers must be very much overworked. At last the decision has been given and these applications have been passed on to the Board of Agriculture. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us an assurance that those applications will be passed on to the Development Commissioners as soon as possible, and that he may be able to assure us of his sympathy, at any rate in the abstract, with the nature of the Grant which is required.
An impression has gained ground in the West that the right hon. Gentleman is out of sympathy with these particular applications. I have combated that view, and I have shown to those chiefly concerned that they are wrong on this point; but if the right hon. Gentleman can give us an assurance of his sympathy and assure us that these applications will be passed on as soon as possible, we shall feel very much relieved. I need hardly say that auxiliary motor power is very greatly needed if fishermen are to keep their heads above water at all in view of the serious competition with which they are confronted. The right hon. Gentleman is entrusted with the interests of fishermen generally, and he knows how keen West Country fishermen are to see the conclusion of the International Sea Fisheries Convention in the waters of the English Channel upon the same lines as the North Sea Convention. The fishermen in the West of England have been suffering more and more from the depredations of foreigners, and without a Convention it is impossible to expect any remedy or any redress. It is ten years since the necessity for a Convention was recognised at the Annual Conference presided over by the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries.
I believe it is three years since the heads of the Convention were submitted to the French Government, and only last week I submitted a very strong case to the Foreign Minister upon this subject. I know that the answer of the right hon. Gentleman will be that this is a matter for the Foreign Office. That is quite true, but I think it is also quite true that the Foreign Minister has not been at fault, for he has done his utmost, and is doing his. utmost, but at the same time I believe that if the President of the Board of Agriculture in future will exercise friendly and continuous pressure upon his fellow Minister he will aid us in bringing about the conclusion of this Convention. I heartily agree with what was said by the hon. Member for Norfolk when he said how necessary it was for the right hon. Gentleman to safeguard the interests of long-shore fishermen, who are a very defenceless body. I know the right hon. Gentleman has been bothered much with representations on behalf of Devonshire fishermen in connection with a by law concerning berried lobsters. I know he has expressed his intention of listening to all the fishermen have to say, and I believe he has arranged to do so. I hope we shall' be given very full notice of the intention to hold the inquiry, because the right hon. Gentleman will understand how difficult it will be to let the fishermen know that the inquiry is going to be held, and how difficult it is to collect evidence.
I desire to endorse the remarks of the hon. Member who has just sat down, and also the hon. Member for East Norfolk. I am glad to learn that the President of the Board of Agriculture has shown such marked sympathy with the suggestions which have been made to him, and it is satisfactory to know that there is such a large increase in the vote for fishery development Whatever may be the view of the right hon. Gentleman upon this subject, there is an impression abroad that up to the present we have had very little practical outcome from that sympathy. Although the right hon. Gentleman's efforts in promoting small holdings throughout the country have been deserving of all success, I respectfully submit that this question of protecting the interests of the fishermen around our coast is of equal, if not of greater, importance to the question of small holdings. The rural population is very much bound up in this question of the protection of our fisheries and fishing interests. Our coasts throughout England are practically unprotected against the depredations of trawlers who do exactly as they please. They sweep away the lines and the living of men dependent upon the small boats, and by doing so these people are forced into other avenues in order to earn their living. If the right hon. Gentleman will only remember that sea water will produce more food for the people than the best land ever known, then he will see the importance of this question. The lives of our fishermen are being harried out of existence, and they know from practical experience that the trawling industry has to a very great extent ruined their living. The trawlers know that year after year they have to go further afield, building larger and more powerful boats in order to keep up the dividends of the companies they represent, knowing full well that they are destroying the living of the fishermen on the coast.
With our enormous coast line I do think that the whole attention of the right hon. Gentleman and his Department might for a time be very well concentrated upon this question. Those of us who represent line fishermen in this House think that this question should be thoroughly sifted by the Departmental Committee over which the hon. Member for Bristol is going to preside. We claim that all the facts should be placed before that Committee. I know we have a Scientific Investigation Committee which has been sitting for many years, and I notice that there is £7,000 for the expenses of this Committee on the Estimates, although I do not know that a single pennyworth of good has come out of this Committee. We do not want any more scientific gentlemen on this Committee, and we want to make sure that the hard facts are brought before the Committee. I am sure that if the right hon. Gentleman will take that matter into consideration he will deserve very well of the fishermen of this country. With regard to the loans for fishermen's motor boats, I submit that we are, I do not know how many years, behind every other nation in the world in this matter. Denmark has thousands of these boats, and even Japan and American fishermen have loans from the Government to supply themselves with motors for their boats. If that is done you will make the fisherman's life much easier than it is to-day. We have done something locally in this matter in our district, and we are hoping for still further benefits in that direction. It is for the right hon. Gentleman to give us a lead in this matter and show fishermen how they can by a little care obtain these motors—which are now almost brought to a pitch of perfection—for their boats which will greatly enhance the ease by which they can earn their living. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will take into consideration the points I have raised.
I agree with what has been said about the high rent which has to be paid by small holders. In my own county there are persons paying 52s. and 55s. per acre for their small holdings, whereas their neighbours are paying just the ordinary rents of the district, varying from 32s. to 35s. Under these circumstances it must be very difficult for the small holder to make a living in competition with a man paying so much lower rent. The hon. Member for Norwich has urged that the county council should pay some portion of the charges for paying off the loan. The only remedy which to my mind is worth their while is, that while they are going on paying these high rents, at the end of a certain period the holding should belong to them and not to the county council. I hope some day we shall take, with regard to our small holdings, the same course we have taken with regard to the small owners in Ireland in order that they may become the owners of those plots of land for which they are paying such high rents. It is very disappointing to me, as the representative of an agricultural constituency, that nothing appears in the Estimates of the Board of Agriculture for the breeding of horses for agricultural purposes. There is provision for breeding light horses for the Army, but no provision for the heavier horses suitable for Artillery. Why should this Department find all the money for encouraging the breeding of horses for the Army? One would have thought that the War Office would have looked after its own supply of horses, and have left the Board of Agriculture to look after the breeding of horses for industrial purposes, which ought to be encouraged by the Board of Agriculture. As regards the premium stallions which are provided by the Board under the present County Scheme, I should like to suggest they should be of a rather heavier and more bony type than some of them are at the present time. It is a question on which hon. Members do not entirely agree, but I think I should not be far wrong in saying it would be an advantage if they had rather more bone about them.
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question with regard to farm institutes. The last time I had the honour of introducing to the right hon. Gentleman a deputation on behalf of one of the agricultural colleges, he told us these farm institutes were not necessarily a matter of bricks and mortar. They have a name, I know, and I should like to know where their habitation is. I should like to know whether farm institutes are to carry on the work done in the past by Agricultural Colleges. I know one agricultural college, Kingston College, which serves Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Leicestershire, and Parts of Lindsey, where both higher agricultural work and elementary agricultural work has been carried out, and I should like to know whether colleges which have done work such as that in the past will be able to carry it on in the future, where the line is to be drawn between the higher agricultural work and the elementary work, and whether the higher work is to be defined as it was in the circular which the right hon. Gentleman, when President of the Board of Education, issued in conjunction with his predecessor at the Board of Agriculture, as work of "a university course" and "research work." I should like to ask whether courses of two years, such as have been carried on at Kingston College will count as higher work, whether there will be a special grant for that work, and whether it will be under the control of the Board of Agriculture, or under the control of the Board of Education. There is one other topic I should like to raise, and that is with regard to the intention of the right hon. Gentleman in the matter of hop substitutes. It is a subject which has been brought up often before this Committee in the past and it is one I raised in a question not long ago. I asked the right hon. Gentleman if he would introduce legislation dealing with the prohibition of substitutes in the brewing of beer. The right hon. Gentleman said he was unable to introduce legislation dealing with that subject, but I hope he will be able to reconsider his decision in the matter. I do not know whether I am in order in I speaking of this. It is a question of legislation. I do not know whether it comes up on the Estimates, but I should just like to say it is entirely uncontroversial. Everyone is agreed that hop substitutes should be prohibited. The measure, which was introduced by the Government last Session, contained another subject which was controversial.
I had better answer the hon. Member's question. It is one which has been put by other hon. Members as well. I do not object to the hon. Member asking the simple question whether the President proposes to introduce certain legislation, but I think he ought not to occupy time in describing the legislalation.
With all deference to your ruling, Sir, I will put the question again: whether the right hon. Gentleman will introduce legislation preventing the use of hop substitutes in beer?
I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee that I should reply, at this stage in the discussion, to some of the many questions which have been put to me. I should like, first of all, to dispose of some of the points raised with regard to our fisheries, on which a good deal of local knowledge and information has been brought to bear by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk (Mr. Noel Buxton), my hon. Friend the Member for the Orkneys (Mr. Cathcart Wason), and the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Devonshire on the other side (Mr. Mildmay). We are fully alive to the fact that in the past the inshore fishermen in particular have had grievances which have multiplied rather than diminished in number owing to greater facilities for catching fish on a large scale. Anyone who is at all acquainted with our coasts, the small estuaries in the fishing ports of either England, Scotland, Wales, or Ireland, must have recognised fully that the chances of a line fisherman or an inshore net fisherman obtaining a livelihood diminish as the science of fishing on a large scale increases. They suffer not only from an alteration in method, but also from an increase in the size of vessels, and the extended use of mechanical propulsion. If there is one class of fishermen in this country who are well worth preserving as a great national asset, it is certainly the inshore men, who, in their intimate acquaintance with the coast of this country and their extraordinary skill in dealing with very difficult ground, have a position second to none in the world. They not only provide us with excellent stock for national purposes, but I might also add with the best of the material from which the manning of our Navy can be organised. The Board of Fisheries is well alive to this fact, and I am taking the problems with which I see any chance of dealing one by one, and, with the assistance of the members of my staff and those whom I hope will shortly join it, I hope first of all to deal with the subjects which can be helped by Development Fund moneys, and then by better organisation or by a further extension or dissemination of knowledge, to give the smaller men engaged in the fishing industry a chance of competing with those organised on a larger scale.
My hon. Friend the Member for Nor-folk suggested that Development Fund moneys might be used for the purpose of providing more auxiliary power to the fishing boats along our coasts. I understand from the Development Commissioners there are legal difficulties about their granting money for this purpose, but, whether that be so or not, I do not think we should then have come to the end of the problem. I am not prepared to believe that disposes of it. I am not going to be a party to handing over to fishermen, or to any other class, national moneys on a philanthropic basis. I think it would be bad for them, and it certainly is not desirable for the nation, but we can by national organisation enable them to do collectively what they cannot do singly. I think my hon. Friend was right when he said we might treat them very much as we treat some of the small proprietors and accommodators on shore, and give them a chance by collective action, through co-operative societies and credit banks, of providing themselves with better materials. I hope in the near future to give them considerable assistance and guidance in the formation of credit societies, and with that object in view I have arranged for one of the best officers of our Board, Sir James Wilson, to get into touch with the banks of the South-West of England and to arrange with them, as we have arranged with some of the joint stock banks for agricultural credit societies, that they should get full advantage of low rates in borrowing money, much lower rates than they could individually get from the banks. I am not able to make any announcement as to how far Sir James Wilson is likely to be successful. I can only hope we shall succeed in making terms no less favourable than those already obtained for agricultural credit societies. I know abroad a good deal of public money has been given for the installation of motors in fishing boats, and that there is scarcely a Continental country which has not given direct assistance. I would much rather see fishermen help themselves with the advantage of a national organisation behind them than that we should give them doles and make them dependent upon purely philanthropic support.
Will they have the advantage of the national credit too?
I have just told the hon. Gentleman we are hoping to arrange with the joint stock banks for a very low rate of interest, and, if I may in my later remarks give him some information as to what has been done in regard to agricultural credit societies, he can draw his own conclusions as to the prospects with regard to the fishing industry. We have not even then come to the end of the fisherman's difficulties. He not only wants to get capital. There are some fishing villages where considerable capital has been raised, and they have installed motors on a considerable scale. In the village of Looe, in Cornwall, no less than twenty-seven of them have been installed by the fishermen at their own cost, and such has been the success of this installation that I venture to say Looe is one of the few villages in the South-West of England that has had a really prosperous fishing season. My hon. Friend also said co-operative effort might be extended to the sale of fish, to mutual insurance, by no means an easy matter to arrange on such a basis as to avoid insolvency, and that it might be used for the purpose of testing new methods, and so forth. I hope when the Fishery Division has been put on a slightly different basis it may be possible for us to set apart one of our officers entirely for the purpose of organising co-operative effort among our fishermen.
Will the right hon. Gentleman bring these valuable suggestions to the knowledge of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries in Scotland?
7.0 P.M.
I should hesitate to do more than make my speech and allow Scotchmen to draw their conclusions. My hon. Friend asked me particularly with regard to the travelling expenses of fishermen members of local committees. The Development Commissioners inform me they have not the right to grant any money for this purpose. He asked me also with regard to the policing of our waters, and the same point was raised by the hon. Member for the Orkneys. The first scheme that was sent in to the Development Commissioners from the Board of Fisheries asked that a considerable sum might be devoted not only to research work, but to research work in conjunction with the policing of our waters within the three-mile limit. I regret the Commissioners did not accept our view that this was a purpose to which they might devote funds they set apart for fishery purposes, but I am venturing to point out again to them that research steamers can incidentally devote themselves to a certain amount of police work, and I am making representations to the Board of Admiralty which will, I hope, lead to vessels of the Royal Navy being used more largely for the purpose of the protection of our coasts. Local committees, however, are interested not only in policing, but also in the development of the fishing industry immediately within their own waters, and in asking the Development Commissioners for funds for the purpose of the development of fisheries I had particularly in mind the fact that within purely local waters a local committee is often better equipped than the Board with its limited staff can be, and I have asked the Development Commissioners to allow us to dispose of a certain amount of money through the medium of local fishery committees.
When they have placed the funds for which we have asked at our disposal, I intend to call together the local fishery committees again and confer with them as to the best way in which the money can be distributed. The last important point raised with regard to the fisheries had reference to the English Channel Convention. The South Coast has been referred to more than once by the hon. Member for South Devon. "What we have aimed at has been providing the English Channel with a Convention very much on the same lines as that already obtaining in the North Sea. It is impossible for us to solve some difficult administrative problems arising in the English Channel without international action. Nothing could be more annoying to local fishermen, or more exasperating to those who administer the Regulations, than to find that foreign vessels are able to do in our waters the very acts which are prohibited to English vessels. It is impossible for us to lose sight of the fact that the fishing interests in the English Channel concern France as much as ourselves. We are all equally interested in preserving the fishing of the English Channel, not for a single year, but for all time, and the destruction of fish and the destroying of spawning beds is of more than purely English interest. The Foreign Office has been in communication with the French Government for some time, and all I am able to say at the present moment is that I am more hopeful of an agreement being reached with France than I have been for some time past.
Lastly, I would like to make reference to the Fishery Department itself. Since the House last discussed this Vote we have lost the services of Mr. Archer, who for a long period was head of the Division. He has retired owing to ill-health, but his enthusiasm ought to be acknowledged in this House, for throughout the whole of his career he devoted himself single-mindedly to the interests of the fishing industry. His place has to be filled, and I hope to fill it by an administrative officer who will be able to take a wide view of his duties. It has been suggested that no one but a first-class expert should fill that post. My experience of experts is that they are expert on only one topic, and on only one side of that topic, and nothing could be more undesirable than that the Board of Fisheries should be heavily overloaded on one side or the other. I hope, therefore, to have a man who will take a broad view of the fishery interest, and who, having administrative skill and experience will be able to make full use of the experts under him. [An HON. MEMBER: "Will he be taken from the Civil Service?"] I would rather have a man with Civil Service experience, as one of the most important duties on the Board of Fisheries is to work in conjunction not only with foreign Governments but with other Boards in the United Kingdom, and I am anxious to have someone who has had some experience of working in conjunction with other Departments. The Board of Fisheries touches the Admiralty, the Scottish Board, and, to some extent, the Irish Board, and the man at the head of it ought also to have some knowledge of local administration and experience.
Having provided, as I hope to do, a man at the head of the Division with administrative capacity, I want to see the scientific side of the administrative staff a little more clearly defined. My reason for that is this. Not only in fisheries but in other matters science ought not to be the end in itself. It should go on researching for years. The main object of research as conducted by this Department ought to be to provide for the greater efficiency of the fishing industry. It is no doubt an admirable thing to solve scientific problems. It provides a great fascination for the scientist, but the reason -why we employ scientists is to enable us to improve the fisheries. I am, therefore, anxious that the work done by the Fishery Board should not be on a pure science basis, but on an administrative basis which shall call to its aid all that science can bring. I have devoted some attention to the fisheries, because I think the time has arrived when a new departure must be taken with regard to small fishermen, and when we shall acknowledge, by greater and better organisation, the enormous extent of the fishery interest of Great Britain throughout the world. Fishing under our flag is not restricted to our own shores; we find large fishing vessels flying our flag off the coast of Portugal and off the coast of Morocco whilst some go so far out as the coast of British Columbia. Year by year they are extending their work and going to more distant waters. There has been no greater development in recent years than that which has marked the British fishing industry. Larger vessels are employed, more men are employed, the weight of fish landed in this country goes up year by year, and it is not merely on account of the men employed, not merely on account of those who have invested their capital in the industry, but because it provides a necessary naval training ground, and adds enormously to the food supply of the country that I think more attention might be devoted to it in the future by those Members of the House who are interested in the topic.
I turn now to the subject of small holdings. Several speeches have been made on the other side of the House which might lead one to suppose, were they to go uncorrected, that the small holdings movement has got over the first blush of interest, and now it is going along quietly but in a decreasing degree. That is not the experience of the Board. Already we have about 142,000 acres of small holdings under the Small Holdings Act, and I would point out that, so far from that having exhausted the demand, the demand is greater to-day than it ever was before. I would point to the Annual Report on Small Holdings, wherein it is shown that, so far from having come to the end of the demand, there are at the present moment on the books of the county councils no fewer than 8,548 individual applicants—approved applicants, and not merely men. whom the county council think will not do. That is an increase over the preceding year of some 380. They are asking for 134,000 acres of land, nearly double the amount already provided, and that again is a considerable increase over the unsatisfied demand in the year 1910. I have reports sent me by officers of the Board to the effect that as you supply the demand so the demand increases.
To what page of the report is the right hon. Gentleman referring?
The top of page 10. There is a large unsatisfied demand, and it is the business of the Board to see that it is satisfied as soon as possible. I acknowledge, with gratitude, the enthusiasm and skill shown by some of the small holdings committees throughout the country. I regret to say that they are not all equally enthusiastic. There are some counties where a considerable amount of" effort is required in order to keep the enthusiasm up to boiling point. The demand is not nearly satisfied. In some retrograde counties, from time to time I am informed, not only by those who go-down as representatives of the Board but by numerous correspondents, the small holdings committees appear to be out of sympathy with the small holdings movement. I am glad to say I can only name three or four counties which now take up an attitude of antagonism to that movement. Some are apathetic, but only three or four are antagonistic. The Small Holdings Commissioners in these instances have performed considerable service, not only to the Board and to the county councils, but to the small holders in the district, and I think there is scarcely a county council officer in those counties who will not admit that the Commissioners have served them quite as well as they have served the small holders. It was only natural in the first year after the passing of the Act that there should have been an unusual rush for small holdings, but what is still more to the point is that in that year all the land then available was snapped up, and then we were faced with the difficulty of getting land good enough and cheap enough, so that small holders might have a chance. The difficulty has unfortunately grown more and more all over England. It is of no use complaining that the small holders have an enormous capital charge tied round their necks. It has been remarked that, notwithstanding this, some of them seem to do very well. That only shows that there is something in the system which preserves its vitality under such depressing conditions.
Again, as one hon. Gentleman opposite has pointed out, small holders have been facing the fact that while they have been paying £3 per acre, somebody on the other side of the hedge is paying only 30s. That is exasperating, but it is explainable. It is due principally to causes, one of which was touched upon by my hon. Friend the Member for Shropshire, who pointed out that the rates on small holdings under the present system put a very heavy burden on the small holders, not because the small holder is inefficient, but merely because the land is split up and more buildings are placed upon it. There could be no more glaring condemnation of our rating system than the fact that when a farm is split up into a number of small holdings, when more men are planted on it, and when the produce of the land is increased, the assessable value is put up also, and the rate burden in many cases is doubled. I do not blame the assessment committees. I know of one instance, the case of a county not very far from London, where the small holdings committee themselves authorised one of their representatives—a very well-known agriculturist?—to appear before the assessment committee, and he, having failed to get a lower assessment for small farms, returned to the charge and asked them to put up the assessments for the large farms. He was not very successful, I am sorry to say, and under our rating system he was not likely to succeed altogether, but I hope the time is not far distant when greater success may be achieved in the direction of stopping the rating of land more heavily because it is being better cultivated and because more buildings are put upon it. There is no justification in ethics for such a proceeding. But it is one of the burdens small holders have to bear.
Again, there is a small addition to the rent to meet the annual charges which have to be incurred, owing to the fact that in most counties the sinking fund is thrown on the small holders. It is not a large amount, but still it is a financial grievance. There are three counties—Glamorganshire, Carmarthenshire, and the West Biding of Yorkshire—which, from the first, made the sinking fund charges county charges, and have not asked their tenants to pay the charges. They have taken this course on the ground that the small holdings were going to become county property, and that those who were going to own the small holdings in the future were the proper persons to pay. Difficulties have arisen with the Public Works Loan Commissioners; none have arisen with the Board of Agriculture; and I can set at rest for the second time in a single Session the minds of hon. Gentlemen who are anxious to know our views about the Small Holdings Act by saying that, as far as the Board of Agriculture is concerned, we do not believe it to be illegal to throw the sinking fund charges on the county. We believe that to be the proper course under the Small Holdings Act.
Does the right hon. Gentleman distinguish between buildings and land?
Oh, yes I do. I am glad the Noble Lord has reminded me of that. I am referring particularly to the land. The rates for these exhaustible improvements, which form a part of the small holdings value, ought to be borne by those who exhaust them. The burden on the land ought to be borne by those who will ultimately own it. The difficulty which has arisen with the Public Works Loan Commissioners I do not think has passed away. The hon. Member for the Wilton Division (Mr. C. Bathurst) asked me a question on that yesterday, and I gave him a reply. I believe the Commissioners are adhering to the rule they have laid down for themselves. I would point out that in doing that they are acting within their own powers and are not attempting to interpret the Small Holdings Act. That does not close the door to county councils to finance their own small holdings. It is possible for them to do that without going near the Public Works Loan Commissioners. So long as that is the custom of the Public Works Loan Commissioners I hope the county councils will get their money elsewhere. The subject of forestry was raised upon the other side by an hon. Member who wished to know what we were doing in the development of cur forestry branch. I think the hon. Member for the Wilton Division rather complained of the activity of the Board of Agriculture in this and in other matters. I hope I shall be long open to that charge. The announcement made this morning, to which he referred, was not an announcement by the Board of Agriculture, but was issued from the office of the Development Commissioners. I need hardly say that I heartily approve of the suggestion which they make, and so far as the Board of Agriculture is concerned, its forestry officers will give every assistance to the carrying out of the scheme outlined by the Development Commissioners. I would point out to the hon. Member this: that one of the great difficulties connected with the forestry problem on a large scale is to get a large stretch of open land upon which you can not only plant and have done with it, but plant for a long series of years—say a period of sixty-five years. These open areas are few and far between in this country. I know there is a large amount of land now devoted to the rearing of game which might be used for afforestation, but the land which is vacant, and which is of very little use for the raising of game, and cannot be used for any other economic purpose than afforestation, is to be found in the catchment areas of the great water companies and corporations. Some of them have been good enough to ask our forestry officers to make a survey of the land and give advise as to the best way to lay it out. We have surveyed their soil, and we are proceeding as rapidly as we can with a very small staff to give such advice as they require for conducting forestry operations on a large scale and over a long period of years.
The hon. Gentleman was mistaken in thinking that the Development Commissioners are taking these steps solely with a view to the unemployment problem. Anything which is done to employ a dozen men is making a contribution towards the solution of that problem, but no one imagines that you can take great masses of men out of our large towns and put them on the hillsides, and at once turn them into first-class foresters. That can never be done. One of the first necessities of forestry in this country is that you should have foresters well trained and workmen who know something about it. That is the reason why I set up the Forestry Advisory Committee, and gave it as its first reference the duty of working out an educational scheme in forestry. I trust before very long I shall have the first of their recommendations, namely, with regard to the provision of men skilled in forestry, and who, even in the lower ranks, will be able to carry out their work with some intelligence. Ultimately I trust the forestry side of the Board of Agriculture will be enabled not only to organise the training of foresters, but to give advice to corporations and to private landowners, as well as on State forests. If any private landowner is prepared to undertake the afforestation of a great area, I trust we shall be able to give him; the advice necessary, provided he pays for it. I have no doubt that if it is good advice, the best that can be obtained in this country, that very large numbers of private landowners would be only too glad to take advantage of it. The woodlands of this country, beautiful as they are, have seldom been planted with a commercial object. If it is possible to plant large areas of land and to make money out of them, I believe the owners of those areas will do their best to take advantage of it. But we have a long way to go before that stage is reached, and the first important thing is to train men and employ men capable of turning out the work well. Then we shall be able to do a great deal of good work in the way of afforestation.
One of the objects of combining the Office of Woods and Forests with the work of the Board of Agriculture was to use the Crown Forests, as far as we could, in harmony with the main interests of the Crown Forests in bringing in revenue, for demonstration purposes. I do not know that it would be possible to take a better example on which to work out our forestry problem, for we are under the statutory necessity there of doing our planting on a commercial basis. I believe the landowners are not likely to undertake great forestry experiments unless they know that those who advise them are endeavouring to plant on a commercial basis. So far the forests belonging to the Woods and Forests Commission have not been used for that purpose. I hope we shall make a change in the policy, for I can imagine no worse example than merely dealing with great Crown Lands as if they were to be used' for the purpose of beauty, as playgrounds, and for the amusement of those who like to see a beautiful combination of trees. That is all very well in its way, but the main purpose, if we are to make any progress in forestry in this country, is to show that trees can be grown at a profit.
Does that apply to the New Forest?
Yes, it does apply to some portions of the New Forest already. The hon. Gentleman knows that we are bound by Statute, or certainly by custom, to keep open large areas in the New Forest as great playgrounds. We cannot interfere with that. Those portions of the New Forest which can be used for planting pure and simple ought to be planted on a commercial basis. A further reason for doing that is that many landowners take too short a view of great investments of this kind. There is no reason why the State should not do it. I know that sixty-five years is a long way for a landowner to look ahead. He is not always sure what his successors will do with the trees. He may find himself short of money and cut them down to raise the wind.
Will you alter the Death Duties in that respect?
The hon. Gentleman mentions the Death Duties as having an effect upon that. The cutting down of woods was very extensive in this country long before Death Duties were introduced. I know perfectly well that is one of the ways of raising money for the payment of Death Duties, but there are many others. I am rather inclined to think that the cutting down of woodlands has gone on more slowly in this country for the last ten years than ever it has done before. I am only speaking on the advice of my technical advisers. I believe that the cutting down of woodlands is not going on faster than it did in previous periods. I do not wish to go into taxation problems now, although I do not quarrel with the hon. Gentleman for having tempted me a little from my own path. My main object was to show that the State is really the authority which can best work out these forestry problems. I hope that more attention will be devoted in the future, not only by those who have control of land, but I would also drop a hint to the Development Commissioners, to the extensive planting of great areas on a large scale.
Another side of the Board's activity which has not come to fruition, but which I hope will be soon at work with efficiency, is the horticultural branch. It is small, but I have great hopes of it helping the fruit-growing industries of this country. It is true that Mr. Rogers is to be the head of that branch. I believe Mr. Rogers is on the best of terms already with the large orchard owners and market gardeners in this country. He knows an immense number of them. In this case, also, I have deliberately chosen to have an administrative officer, who will have to assist him a good many experts in various branches of the industry, which ought to be more largely developed, especially in the sunnier parts of England. Mr. Rogers has occasionally been confused with one of our Small Holdings Commissioners who used to occupy a seat in this House. In order to relieve the minds of some hon. Gentlemen, I may say that, so far as I know, Mr. Rogers never was a politician, but has devoted his whole life to administrative duties. He will have under him some eight experts in various branches of horticulture. I hope to have one of the best entomologists in the country. I am unable to announce his name now, but I hope to do so shortly. The negotiations which are proceeding between us have not been concluded, but the Committee may take it that we are likely to keep uppermost in our minds the close connection between insect life and horticulture, which all scientific horticulture must mainly depend upon. It is not only a question of disease, but of propagation, and we mean to make the best use we can of the best entomologist whether in England or, if necessary, in Scotland.
What about the other experts?
I must give the hon. Member the details later. I must have some time to consider the matter. I am anxious to cover all the main interests of market gardening and fruit growing in this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin) referred to the question of light horse breeding. I feel somewhat nervous in following him upon a subject with which he has been intimately associated all his life. I can tell him that we have in view at the Board the encouragement of the very interest which he has so heartily supported this afternoon namely, not only the breeding, but the retention in this country of the best kind of light horses. It is not only an agricultural or sporting problem; it is a military problem. It would be a disastrous thing for this country if we were to depend for our light horses on those we buy abroad. I doubt whether that is necessary, and I trust that the tide which seemed to be setting against us is now setting in our favour. It is naturally a matter of considerable cost. The amount we have to spend on premiums and super-premiums for stallions carefully selected is larger this year than previously. The right hon. Gentleman asked me a question as to the purchase of stallions. We have been working particularly through the premium system. The purchase of stallions is only an alternative to which we shall have to resort when the other fails.
We do not possess at the present moment any stallions except those purchased out of the £5,000 set apart for that purpose last year. So far as we have gone, we have gained most by the payment of premiums and super-premiums, and the reason why we reduce the sum from £5,000 to £4,500 in the current Estimates is to set free £500 of that for other purposes. I am informed that there seems to be reason to believe that £4,000 will be more than ample for the purpose for such stallions as we may need to purchase. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the horse Breadalbane. I do not think we can afford the purchase of horses at that high price. I should very much regret if the Germans beat us at any auction where we were out to buy any horses. We hope to do what is necessary to raise the general level of light horses in this country by the premium system, which will place at the disposal of horse breeding committees all over the country a very large number of animals throughout the coming year. Last year we spent about £8,700 in premiums and in the amount paid by the Board for service fees. That enabled something like fifty stallions to be used throughout the season, and, as far as we know, they were used successfully in nearly every part of the country. We hope to help light horse breeding also by the annual purchase by county committees of some 200 half-bred mares. Although in many counties they have been providing themselves with mares which were good enough for the purpose, nearly the whole of that number will be provided in the coming season. We have also provided for something like a thousand nominations of free service by premium stallions, and we are also doing all we can to eliminate the unsound stallions who far too often travel the roads. When these three movements are all at work, I believe we shall have considerably increased the supply of light horses and at the same time raised their standard. Last year there were only something like 312 stallions registered by the Board, but the registration of stallions is becoming more and more known, and up to 31st May last over 700 stallions have been registered by the Board as sound and fit to travel the road.
I should like to say a few words on the subject of animal diseases, in which the hon. Member (Mr. C. Bathurst) has shown such a close and expert interest. One of his first complaints was that the circular issued by the Board on Johne's disease was somewhat obscure. It is very difficult to describe in any circular or leaflet exactly the qualities and symptoms of every disease which has for some reason or other to be brought under investigation, and I cannot hope that all our leaflets are perfectly clear. The obvious moral to be drawn from the use of this leaflet is that if any man has a cow which is suffering from wasting, accompanied by diarrhæa, he should at once communicate with a veterinary officer, who will be able to tell him whether it is tuberculosis or not. If he has any doubt about it and finds it spreading through his herds, the best thing he can do is to sacrifice one animal in order that there may be a postmortem examination. That is the only way known to scientists by which Johne's disease can be diagnosed with absolute certainty. If the hon. Member knows any other way he will perhaps be good enough to inform the scientists.
The farmer cannot possibly diagnose the disease without expert advice, for which he will have to pay.
No one but a scientist can find out if it is Johne's disease. You cannot expect the advice at the disposal of the Board of a non-expert character to be likely to do that in which the experts have failed. All that we know about Johne's disease at present has been placed at the disposal of the local authorities. They know as much as we do. The Board's scientific staff are at work week by week, and we hope to have more definite information to communicate sooner or later. But much the most serious of all the disease problems raised by the hon. Member was concerned with swine fever.
I do not want to belittle the loss which falls on the agricultural community owing to outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease, but swine fever, I believe, causes more loss to farmers than almost any other disease. When one thinks of the enormous number of animals slaughtered every year of necessity—and I have no doubt there is also a very large number which die of which we hear nothing—the increase in the spread of this disease must alarm almost anyone who is at all interested in agricultural affairs. I regret to say that during the last few years swine fever has not been on the decrease. It appears in some districts almost to have got the upper hand. Certainly the control which we hoped to have in some of the worst counties does not seem to have been fully attained, and the only satisfaction we can draw from the returns is that in some of the immune areas there appears to be no fresh outbreak of disease—it is not on the increase. The suggestion has been made that in these counties our Regulations should be relaxed, and I have been carefully considering how far that might be possible. In the Northern parts of the island there are very large tracts of country where there is no swine fever at all, and rather than take these great areas county by county, I am anticipating very shortly taking them in larger areas, so that we might have one large clean area where there is no disease at all; and there the twenty-eight days to which the hon. Member referred might well be extended to three months. The only way in which we can allow the passage of animals freely within that area without taking into account county boundaries will be by making that an immune area, not subject to the same free importation into it as you would into an area where the restrictions are much closer. I believe that would be acceptable, for instance, in some parts of the South of Scotland, and I know it would be in the North. Our main object is to allow freer movement within clean areas, and at the same time to do what we can to preserve them from the importation of disease.
I do not close my mind to the fact that all our efforts in the past have been unavailing. I cannot say they have altogether failed, for no one knows what might have happened if we had not carried into force the severe restrictions under which agriculture now labours. We acted under the advice of an excellent Committee, and I am now awaiting their final Report. The hon. Gentleman who presides over the Committee knows how thoroughly their work has been done—work to which he has contributed in no small part—but the final Report must be awaited before we can embark upon any change in the policy which has been laid down largely as a result of his investigations. The large sums of money spent in compensation might possibly have been spent to better effect in research. No one can tell. The only thing we can say is that scientists all over Europe are at present working on the subject of swine fever, and they have no more light on it than we have. We are anxious to receive information from them, and to extend it to them. We have our own veterinary officers at work on it day by day. Some progress, I am told, is already being made at the Board's laboratory, and I hope if any progress is made we shall be able to modify our Regulations and so remove the hindrance from the free traffic of animals. as will lead to a considerable increase in commercial transactions, and I hope a general rise in the value of pigs. The destruction of carcasses, the hon. Gentleman suggested, was not carried out quickly enough. If he complains of that, he will have to complain to the local authorities, for it is their duty to destroy carcasses. They need not wait for the arrival of the Board's veterinary officer in order to do that. If the hon. Member knows of any district in which he thinks the destruction is not carried out promptly enough, if he will let me know I shall be glad to communicate at once with the local authority.
Is it not a fact that these carcasses have to be kept until the inspector sees them? It is the inspector's order.
No, it is not necessary to keep the carcasses until the inspector has seen them. They are glad to see prompt destruction. What we wish to have—and we get it from nearly every part of the country—are samples of the bowels of the pigs which are affected, and these are sent up and contribute in some small degree to helping the research. The other very serious disease which hampers not only the internal agricultural work of this country, but also its export trade, is foot-and-mouth disease, and nothing, I am sure, brought greater regret to the Board's officers than the outbreak which occurred only a few days ago. I should have been delighted to be able to announce that it was a false alarm, but I regret to say there is no doubt about it. Foot-and-mouth disease broke out at Belmont Farm, Penrith, and I fear it is going to lead to a serious interruption of the export trade in high-class British stock. We have made every effort to prevent any spread of the disease. The destruction of carcasses has proceeded with the greatest rapidity, and we have, not only our junior, but our chief veterinary officers on the spot to direct operations, and every suspected animal within that area, every animal which has been in contact with animals which have had foot-and-mouth disease, has been destroyed; suspected animals have been traced, and are under supervision, and there appears to be no doubt that there is no likelihood of any spread in the district all round Penrith.
I hope our anticipations in that respect will be gratified. This occurs unfortunately within a few days of the opening of the Royal Show at Doncaster, and will, I fear, have a very serious effect on the sale of the more highly-bred animals which are chosen at that show every year for export abroad. One of the most important of our markets, Argentina, was opened to us only a fortnight ago, and if Argentina returns to prohibition it means that it will be closed for another six months, even if there is no further outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. This is a serious matter for our dealers and also for the stock owners of Argentina. I have already had a telegram sent through the Foreign Office to the British Minister at Buenos Aires asking if the Argentine Government would postpone the issuing of a new decree prohibiting the importation until it has been shown here that the disease has spread outside the infected area. If it has not spread outside the infected area, we might well ask the Argentine Government, not in the interests of our exporters, with which they have no concern, but in the interests of their purchasers, in which they have a very direct concern, not to lay on a six months' decree when it is known that the disease for the time being has been completely stamped out. That is the utmost I can do at present, and I hope it will bring some satisfaction to the stock breeders of this country. We have at the same time cabled to His Majesty's Minister at Monte Video, so that the whole of that area will be covered by the messages already sent out.
Tuberculosis is too large a topic to refer to, but I want to make reference to one side of that difficult problem. We have been conducting experiments, and so have Tubercolosis Committees, for some time past in various laboratories on tuberculous animals, and we know a little more about tuberculosis than was known twenty years ago. But it is unfortunately true that a very large number of herds in this country are infected with tuberculosis. It seemed to me that the work which was being done in our laboratories—good work as it was—was not covering the ground widely enough. I knew of my own knowledge that there were a large number of stock breeders in this country who, not only in their own interests, but in the interests of the public have been conducting experiments with regard to tuberculosis, and the weeding out of tuberculous animals altogether from their herds; and the information which they have acquired ought to be placed at the disposal of the central department. Surely, any knowledge on this subject ought to be put into the common pot! What was said in circularising the agricultural organisations of this country was that if private owners who had been conducting experiments would let us have their information, certainly it would not be used to their detriment, and it might be of great advantage to the Board and to all breeders of high-class animals who are anxious to weed tuberculosis out of their herds.
What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by the expression "experiments"?
A great deal has been done with regard to experiments in the tuberculin test. I am not prepared to say the tuberculin test is reliable in a hundred cases out of a hundred. We want to know, as far as we can, how far it is or is not reliable, or if it is possible to breed out of tuberculous stock animals which are free from tuberculosis. That information would surely be an immense advantage to private stock breeders throughout the country.
Does the right hon. Gentleman seriously suggest that tuberculosis is hereditary?
I am not suggesting that. I am suggesting that it may be possible, by way of experiment, to discover whether it is possible to raise from tuberculous stock, certainly within the same area, animals entirely free from tuberculosis. The hon. Gentleman is certain that you can bring out of tuberculous stock absolutely tuberculous-free stock. I wish he would let us have the information on the subject. We shall be only too glad to have it. It is because we want this information that we have circularised the private breeders. The hon. Gentle-is very public-spirited in agricultural matters, and I regret he should have stated publicly that he is not prepared to contribute this to the common stock of information. He stated that, so far as he was concerned, he was not going to entrust us with the information he has as to tuberculosis in regard to the herd which he owns. I think that is a bad example. I am glad to say that there are a very large number of stock breeders all over the country who have given us quite freely, without any nervousness at all, such as the hon. Gentleman has displayed, the whole information they have at their disposal. They have kept careful records of individual animals, of the tests applied to them, and of the way in which young animals have been treated, and from time to time the are sending up to us—they have done so even in the last few weeks—information which is of great value to us. I believe these contributions from private stock breeders will be of inestimable assistance to the Board. I hope those who have sent up information will not be made nervous by anything said by the hon. Gentleman. We have undertaken that the information so sent will be treated as confidential, and I do not believe there is likely to be any disclosure which a private stock breeder would say "was to his disadvantage.
The hon. Member also asked for information with regard to abortion. Sir John McFadyean's Committee has been in existence for some time, and the hon. Gentleman knows the difficulties that have arisen in regard to this question. The Committee do their level best to get such information as is possible, and they have to keep it quiet. It is only natural that that should be so. We must take it as one of the elements in the problem we have to solve. We are not satisfied merely with regulations. I believe it is of the first importance that there should be first hand research. Our veterinary officer has had singular success in obtaining information in regard to abortion. He has succeeded in innoculating a large number of animals. I think he has no less than 1,000 animals under observation. Already it is believed his vaccine experiments have led to immunity from abortion in a large number of instances, although one cannot be certain at present that a great contribution has been made towards the elimination of abortion from the losses of practical farmers.
I wish to say a word in regard to research work and agricultural education. We have now for the purpose of agricultural research large sums of money which were never previously available. These have been spread out over a variety of subjects, for we believe that only by scientific research in different ways can the best value be got for the expenditure of public money. We want to supplement what knowledge we have with new knowledge as time goes on. This can best be done through the institutions we have already in existence—agricultural colleges, agricultural branches of universities, and other institutions like the John Hawkins Institution, which is devoting itself to one problem only. This research work ought to be linked up with advisory work, and we hope that will be done with the assistance of the Development Fund money. Advisory work has been, I am sorry to say, of little avail hitherto. That is largely due to the fact that experimental farms were not worked on a commercial basis; that is to say, they were not worked with a view to the necessity of the farmer making a living out of his farm. There is a keen interest taken in research work by farmers in this country. Although I cannot profess to have such knowledge of those engaged in agriculture as some hon. Members, I may say that I have seldom come across the case of a farmer who, after a few minutes' talk, would not say that he would gladly take advantage of the assistance of an advisory committee, and apply to the nearest agricultural college or university for it, if he knew it was available. We want to make the results of research work better known to those engaged in practical agriculture, and we want to improve agricultural education, which, I believe, alone will establish the prosperity of British agriculture. Agricultural education is conducted with great skill and enthusiasm in many of the agricultural departments of colleges, but it is restricted to too few people. What we wish to do, from the earliest stages of education, even before children have left the elementary schools, is that they should have some knowledge given to them of agriculture, in terms of agriculture, as to the very things with which they are surrounded, so that they will come to have such a desire for knowledge in regard to agriculture that, when they grow up, they will take advantage of the county council classes, attend the course of the farm institute, take advantage of the agricultural departments of universities, or attend the agricultural colleges.
The real difficulty of linking all these together is that, first of all, the counties are organised on different bases. Some have done much work in this direction already, while some have done practically none. I do not wish to see those that have been working penalised for their enterprise. When it is said that you should not distinguish between those that have been enterprising in the past and those that have done nothing, I would point out that there is a restriction imposed by the Development Commissioners. I would like to see the Commissioners realise that work which has been done in the past need not be done in future out of their funds, but that in giving money for new work they should give more to those counties which have already been doing something, and less to those that have been doing nothing. The old work of these county councils will be noted in future. I think the hon. Gentleman opposite has rather misread the information already given in regard to the old work of the county councils. The old work will be helped out of Grants distributed by the Board of Agriculture, just as they used to be out of Grants by the Board of Education. There is a complete transference of the means of distribution of the Grants. The Grants will be on the same basis, but they will be paid out through the Board of Agriculture, and not the Board of Education. That is the only change so far as they are concerned, and I think that statement will bring a certain amount of relief to county administrators, who thought they would be worse off in future than they had been in the past. I cannot give a cut-and-dried syllabus showing exactly the work to be undertaken, but the main idea of farm institute work is that it is not to be work either, on the one hand, of a merely passing and temporary character, like the work in some of the elementary schools, or, on the other hand, work which is to be prolonged over a series of terms, say a couple of years, as in some of the colleges. It is to come between these. The main idea is to provide for twenty-weeks' courses for young men, and young women too, who are able to spare that amount of time from their agricultural work. You would have in some counties to begin a little earlier, and in others a little later, but the main idea is to have a full course of twenty weeks. At the same time there ought to be a linking up of the courses with evening work which could do the linking up with the farm institutes which would form centres round which the work could be carried out. [An HON. MEMBER: "Will there be separate farm institutes for the counties?"] These farm institutes need not be limited to one county. There are many cases where two or more counties could be combined. One of the things I am finding out at present is how far counties are likely to combine. In the case of one of the largest counties, Yorkshire, the three Ridings do co-operate for a great deal of this work, and there is no reason why what has been done there should not be done elsewhere. One thing which I am not going to do is to force counties to combine. I believe when it is realised, as it has been by a good many Members of the House, that many counties will have an advantage as compared with a single county, you will find that they will be willing to work in conjunction, and that the advisory work also will be conducted through the ordinary county organisers.
I propose to put myself in personal communication with the various groups all over the country as soon as I can get relieved from the work of the House. I wish to know from them whether it is possible to combine. I believe it can be done in many districts with advantage to the counties concerned. Where it can be done I wish to see set up a joint advisory committee which will advise the Board, and which will lead to a larger amount of local autonomy and control than would be possible if each district were to work alone. This combination of counties will, I believe, be productive of good in more ways than one. We anticipate not only helping agricultural education, but also other great schemes. We anticipate before long handing in to the Development Commissioners a request for some of the funds at their disposal for the purpose of helping live-stock breeding. It is responsible work, and I hope the counties which are concerned will be prepared to co-operate for this purpose. Whatever system be adopted, we intend to use such moneys as are at our disposal not only for improving the skill of the men engaged, but for the breeding of the highest and strongest standard of animals, for their preservation from disease, for the best tillage of the soil, and generally for the efficiency of the work and making agriculture of greater service to mankind.
8.0 P.M.
May I say a word on one point referred to in the able speech of the right hon. Gentleman, to which, I think, hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House have listened with pleasure. In reply to a question I put, the right hon. Gentleman tells us that notwithstanding the provision of £5,000, no thoroughbred stallions have been purchased during last year, nor is it intended to purchase them now. The right hon. Gentleman said, "Your object and mine is the same." He hopes to raise the standard of horses again in this country, and he thinks he will be able to accomplish that object through the premium system rather than by the purchase of stallions. What ground has he for that belief? I can quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman has hardly had time up to now to study the history of this question. If he had done so, he would have found that although the premium system has been in force for a great many years, it is during the whole of these years that we have gone on consistently losing the best of our stallions which have gone abroad, having been selected by foreign Governments, whose object is the same as that which he and I hold in common, namely, to establish the best breed of horses possible for themselves. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider this subject before we come to these Estimates for another year. Speaking with a very long experience and with all deference to him and all humility on this subject, I venture to say that unless we do something to keep the best breeding animals in the country it is impossible to hope that we should excel other nations in the future, and if the same drain is to continue hereafter that has been felt by all of us who are connected with or interested in this question, if the drain of the best horses and mares is to continue to proceed as it has proceeded, and in the case of the horses in particular, really it will be hopeless, as I am convinced he will find, to attain the object which he has in view I have no doubt in common with myself. It is a very serious question, but I have had great opportunities of learning something about it, and it is for that reason only that I venture to refer to it.
I wish to make one point clear as to which I was perhaps misunderstood. I did not say that we did not purchase any horses. I said that we did not now possess any. I believe that last year one stallion was purchased. Very shortly afterwards it went to Major Hurst, who was not going to send it abroad, but was going to keep it himself for use in one of the breeding experiments which he is conducting with great zeal. The reason why £4,500 is down in this year's Vote is that, although we are depending mainly on the premium system, we wish to have that money available in case the opportunity should arise of a suitable animal cropping up—
It is sure to arise.
And that we might avoid the danger of the animal leaving the country, and we wish to have the money for that purpose. I do not anticipate that it will be necessary, but one cannot tell, and that is why we have put the £4,500 into this year's Estimates.
I beg to move to reduce Sub-head A (Salary of the President of the Board of Agriculture) by £100.
I have listened to the very interesting speech of the President of the Board of Agriculture, and I suppose that never before have we touched on so many subjects as this afternoon. I was one of those who were delighted to hear that the small holdings have been a great success, but I am very glad that the President of the Board of Agriculture has not been running so madly after these small holdings as some of his predecessors, and I was also delighted to hear him say that he was going to take up the great question of afforestation. As one of those who has had practical experience of forestry work for the past twenty-five years, I was delighted to hear him say it, because I think it was about the first time that a Government official has acknowledged that you must have experts to plant forests and woods in this country. There is no good either growing trees or planting them if the trees are not the proper ones, and are not arranged in the proper way. But there is also a great deal in the correct aspect in which those particular trees ought to go. When I was in Wales in charge of a large estate, a Noble Lord who was owner of that estate came down and said that a certain valley should be planted. Up to about fifty acres was to be done every year. But he totally forgot that to plant the whole of the valley he would have to plant one side which was in the sun and the other which was in the shade. It was not very long afterwards that though I was made to plant that valley with the same sort of trees in the same way in order to meet his wishes, one side was a success and the other was a failure, and that one was a failure because after about five years' continuous planting a frost came and struck the whole of those trees away in one single night. Those things cannot be arranged for, and cannot be thought out unless the work is done in a practical manner.
I regretted having to interrupt the President when he was speaking on the question of swine fever. I also happen to have been Deputy-Chairman of an Executive Committee on Diseases of Animals for County Councils for the last ten years, and I can remember perfectly well the Executive Committee being called to order several times because the beasts that died were not kept for the examination of the officers of the Board. The right hon. Gentleman told us just now that those carcasses should have been destroyed. I am very glad to hear it. I go further than that, and ask the President immediately to notify county councils that they can destroy the carcasses of infected animals, because one of the chief points to which objection is taken is that the carcasses have had to remain on the farms, and in the position in which the animal died for a considerable time in order to satisfy the officials of the Board. If the right hon. Gentleman will publish it abroad to the county councils that they may destroy these carcasses he will be doing a very excellent work. In a great many cases there is a great deal of vexatious mannerism and ordering by the inspectors who go out from the Board when they are investigating a case of swine fever. Quite close to my own home in March last there was a rather bad outbreak of swine fever, and it took from the 5th March to the 27tb March to carry out the instructions of the inspectors who came down from the Board. During the whole of that time there was a considerable number of inspections made by different officials, and at different periods they ordered pigs to be killed. I do not think, whoever these inspectors were who went down, that they need have prolonged the period from 5th March to the 27th. The first pig died on 5th March; it was one of twelve. It was impossible for the inspector to arrive until the following day, when he visited the farm. He examined the dead pig, and killed another one, leaving ten. Another inspector arrived on the 15th. He killed three more, leaving seven. There was also another lot of pigs on the same farm, and he killed one of those, and then he came again and killed two more out of lot one, leaving five this time. He still had not made up his mind. He also killed twenty-nine pigs of the other lot, including a number of sows, and of those which were killed twelve were buried and the rest were sold off. Altogether there were twenty-one pigs allowed to be sold for food. I do not mind giving the President the name of the farm privately, but I think it better not to give it publicly. I think that the tenant farmers who have these wretched cases of swine fever breaking out in their farms should not be put to the inconvenience of having this going on for a considerable time.
The President of the Board also touched upon tuberculosis. I think if he were to read the reports of that disease he would come to the conclusion, as I have done, that tuberculosis is not hereditary in bovine beasts. The President comforted himself on the large amount of money that is being voted this year by the Board. We all rejoice that it is £60,000 up on what was voted last year. I must also acknowledge that there is the £156,000 which comes from the Development Fund, but the total is only £409,000 altogether, and when we compare that, as I have often done in this House, with some of the other countries, the amount is absolutely insignificant. Even Belgium gives more than that. France gives £2,150,000, and the United States over £3,500,000. But while all this is being done in other countries, we are standing still to too great an extent. We ought to have double the amount if the Board of Agriculture is to carry on the research work which has been mentioned this afternoon. I know that the President of the Board of Agriculture will say that there are other Grants which have been given to other parts of the United Kingdom, but that is touching on one of the greatest mistakes that we are making in this country. The disintegration of agricultural work is going on very fast. Scotland has partially left us, and we see that Wales will also leave us. The work in Scotland is not being received in the way you might imagine the Scottish people would receive it. It is being regarded with suspicion, and also with regret that much of the work which was previously done in London has now gone to Scotland. I was very much disappointed that the President of the Board of Agriculture did not give us any information at all as to what work is being done in Scotland by the Board of Agriculture in England on behalf of the Board of Agriculture in Scotland. If the work is being done—I know it is being done—I want the President to tell us who has control over the officials in Scotland, who are collecting the information for the Board of Agriculture in England. I said just now there is a great deal of suspicion in Scotland, and I must prove my statement. I dare say you may have noticed in "The Field," of 11th May, of this year, there was a very significant quotation from "The Scottish Farmer," which was reported by "The Field," which said:—
The hon. Gentleman must not mistake what I said. I pointed out that our estimates were so full that it was impossible to spend the whole of the amount which we had asked for, and which this House had granted.
I am very sorry that the Board of Agriculture was unable to spend the money which they had got. I always thought that the disadvantage under which they were labouring was that they could never get enough money. I do hope that in future the money will be fully utilised, and then we will be able to impress upon the Government the fact that we need more money for agricultural purposes, and that the amount which is being spent in this country is deplorably disproportionate to the sums expended in other countries for similar work. One point which has not been touched upon this evening has reference to the census of agricultural production. According to the newspapers of this country, an important and valuable book has been published giving a census of production, and it has been brought but by the Board of Agriculture. Though I have made many inquiries during the last day or two as to where that book is to be got, and what it is, nobody seems to know anything at all about it. What is the good of going to this huge expense, and of putting people to all this great inconvenience of collecting this information, if it is to be buried in a pigeon-hole of some Government Office? Why cannot it be produced; why cannot it be put in the Votes Office of this House, so that Members of Parliament can see it as soon as the newspapers. I do think that a most serious matter which ought not to have occurred, and it is for that and other reasons that later on I am going to move the reduction of this Vote. I was told as to the extraordinary disease known as Johne's disease, in reply to a question which I put the other day for further information, that for years the Board of Agriculture had been collecting information about it. If that be so, is it not a great pity that the last information published by the Board was in 1909, in the Report on the Diseases of Animals. In the Report of 1910 there is no mention of it, and, of course, the Report of 1911 has not seen daylight yet. I do think it is a great pity if this information has been collected for all these years that it cannot be produced to the farmers of this country. This disease is highly infectious, and so infectious and so serious that the Royal Agricultural Society of England have brought out a pamphlet giving more information about it than even the Board of Agriculture, and they say that it should be isolated. Yet the Board waits until the disease spreads all over the country; because I firmly believe that it is spreading and that in my own district we have it today. The Board should also consider whether this disease should not be made a notifiable disease. It is no good sending round circulars asking for information if information cannot be given by the Board itself. I received one of those letters asking for information, dated 13th April, 1912, which says:—
I should like to ask the Board to do something in the direction of attacking the warble fly which so devastates the hides of animals in this country. There are two flies which do the same work, and the attack is so serious that many people put down the damage done to the hides alone of animals which are attacked to be about one million pounds per annum; to say nothing of the pain to the beasts, and even in some cases the death of the beasts. It thereby causes great loss to the feeding of animals in this country, and it is an enormous loss to the market value. When animals which have been attacked by these flies are killed by the butcher for beef, that part of the beast attacked by these flies is no use for the butcher. Last, but not least of course, the hide itself is perforated, and, as a consequence, is of no use for saddlery or any other purpose. The life history of these flies has been known for a great number of years. In the "Board of Agriculture Journal" for January of this year there is the statement that the Dutch can cure this disease at a small cost of a halfpenny per beast, though it is stated in the same article that in Germany it costs nearly fourpence. Whether it is a halfpenny or fourpence, it is an undoubted fact that you can prevent this disease. And if you can do so for two years you absolutely exterminate it, because you exterminate the flies. Why, I ask, cannot the Board take up this matter in a more serious way? Germany is now proposing to appoint experts who will go into the whole matter and see if this cannot be done, and thereby free the beasts from the fly, save the hides for the leather, the beef for eating, and the pain and loss to the animals and to the farmer. I must say that I very strongly advocate that the Board of Agriculture should take this matter up and go into it and see if something could not be done to alleviate some of this loss.
I wish also to mention a point which I brought up about two years ago, namely, that when you find foot-and-mouth disease breaks out in this country that directly the animals have been slaughtered and the farm cleared that information should be given to foreign countries. In reply to a question on 10th June we were given the information that in an outbreak of the disease on 11th December the whole of the animals affected or exposed to infection were slaughtered, and the disease therefore exterminated, but the Argentine were never informed until 5th February. That is absolutely wrong. You cannot say that it is right either for scientific or for practical purposes. From the scientific point of view, the disease would have shown itself in the neighbourhood within a very few days; therefore you did not require weeks, still less months. Practically it cannot be defended, because you want to give the earliest information to these countries in order that they may remove their embargo on our cattle as soon as possible. Another point to which I wish to call attention is one of interest to my own locality. Not long ago a great deal was said by farmers and consumers about the enormous amount of Dutch cheese that was being sold in this country as Cheshire cheese. It may be said that that comes under another Department, but the Board of Agriculture took the matter up, and the Dutch Government, through its representatives, undertook, I believe, that the whole of the cheese of the Cheshire type made on the Cheshire principle and sent to this country should be branded as Dutch produce, so that so far as the wholesale trade was concerned it would no longer be passed off as Cheshire cheese made in Cheshire. I should like to know whether that is really being done. The promise that was made should certainly be fulfilled. Because of the Board's action in the matters to which I have referred I beg to move to reduce the vote by £100.
I rise to support this Amendment, but for reasons other than those put forward by the Mover. The subject to which I wish to refer is the continued objection on the part of the Board to remove the restrictions on the importation of live cattle for almost immediate slaughter. In November last there waited upon the President of the Board a very representative deputation, comprising members of the City Corporation and representatives from Birkenhead, Manchester, Liverpool, and other places. After a long interview the President, who dealt with the subject very attentively, promised that the matter should be carefully considered. My object in rising is to ascertain the present mind of the Board on the subject. This afternoon two or three speakers have expressed a strong desire that, although foot-and-mouth disease has broken out in this country, representations should be made to the Argentine that they should take little notice of that, but be prepared to receive cattle from this country from districts other than those affected. In January or February, 1910, when an outbreak occurred in the Argentine, the President was asked whether he could not treat that country in the same way as the Board would treat North America if an outbreak occurred there, and the reply was distinctly and firmly in the negative. Yet this afternoon the President informed the Committee that he has approached the Argentine Government and asked them not to issue a restrictive order for the present, but to leave it until some arrangement could be made whereby this particular area should be marked off and animals still exported from other districts in this country to the Argentine. It is very singular that the President should have made that suggestion when it is a question of this country sending cattle to other countries, but should refuse the same suggestion when made in regard to cattle being brought here from other countries. This matter seriously affects those whom I have the honour to represent. But the injury does not stop there. It affects thousands of working people in other parts of the country, such as Birkenhead, Manchester, and Glasgow. In my own Constituency there has been erected at the expense of the City Corporation a magnificent market intended to deal with any outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease that might arise. That market has been carried out for many years, giving employment to a large body of men. What is of equal importance, by live cattle being brought in on the understanding that it must be killed within ten days, the working people of Deptford were provided with those cheaper parts of the animals which, with the importations of dead meat, they are unable to obtain. These restrictions have not only deprived the work people of wages, but they have deprived them of freshly killed, and at the same time cheap food. I do not want to dwell upon that too much, but I was very hopeful when some three or four years the then President of the Board of Agriculture went down to see for himself, that he would have made some recommendations upon the subject.
In October, 1910, and only then did we get anywhere near the question of removing these restrictions. A statement was made on the floor of this House, that the matter was being considered in regard to, I will not say the removal of the restrictions, but the modification of them. We have been waiting ever since to see what was to be done. It seems to me that the Government or the Board of Agriculture have readily seized upon the first pretext to still maintain these regulations. The report came in February, 1910, I think it was, that foot-and-mouth disease had broken out in the Republic. As I have already stated, although the Board of Agriculture agreed to a certain course of action in another part of that huge territory, they were unable to agree that cattle not affected by this disease should be brought in from other parts of the Republic. As I understand the position, the President sits on the Front Bench as the representative of a Free Trade Government; but upon this question it appears to me that he and the Board, whose spokesman he is, are the greatest Protectionists in this House. I realise very fully the harm that foot-and-mouth disease can do, it would be folly for me to close my eyes to that—at the same time, if other countries can deal with this matter without absolutely closing their export trade, and say, after what we have heard this afternoon, that the President should make this suggestion to the Argentine Republic that he should not take immediate steps to exclude cattle from here, but give us a little time in order to segregate, the affected animals and so allow other animals to go forward. I ask, why cannot some course of action be adopted when we are dealing with live cattle imported from the Argentine? It is quite as important, I take it, to the Argentine breeders that they should be allowed to send their live cattle here, as it is to the English breeders to send their cattle to the Argentine. I hope the President will be able to give us a somewhat more satisfactory reply than those he has given on previous occasions.
I wish to support the Motion, and also what has been said by the hon. Member for Deptford. I take it the Committee would do well to look upon this question from rather a different standpoint even to that raised by the hon. Member for Deptford. It has been my business for the past twenty-five years to study figures with regard to cattle in various countries of the world. We are now at a very serious point in our history in regard to the supply of fresh meat coming to the United Kingdom, I do not wish to weary the House with figures, but every hon. Member is perfectly well aware that we had every reason to expect some years ago the United States would be able to breed a supply of cattle sufficient for our requirements. Owing to the enormous increase of population in the States, the surplus available for export to the United Kingdom has fallen down in a most extraordinary way. My information is that that figure will still continue to decrease. We then hoped that Canada would be able to supply us with cattle. There, again, we have had a great disappointment, for from information that I have had it does not seem probable that the breeding of cattle in Canada will be sufficient to enable the people of this country to obtain a supply of fresh meat from that source. Their population also is so rapidly increasing, and it seems impossible to keep step with it. We had also hoped that Russia would be a source of supply, but that, too, has been shut off, or rather circumstances do not seem to make it at all likely that they will be exporters of live animals to this country.
Therefore it appears that the Continent of South America is the place that we must look to. In the highlands of Venezuela there is every reason to believe that the farmers and stock raisers will gradually build up a stock of cattle from which they will be able to export considerable numbers here. It is, as the hon. Member for Deptford has pointed out, the Argentine that is the source of supply to which we must really look. There we have a country without the provision of either coal or iron, and where the inhabitants will never become the population of an industrial centre such as we are at home; therefore, having no means to build up industries or an industrial life, there is every likelihood that they will do everything possible to extend and increase their agriculture. The question for this Committee and for the President of the Board of Agriculture to decide is this: Is it possible for the President to use the power granted to him—I understand that by an Order in Council he has the power, there is no need to appeal to this House for any Act of Parliament, for the President has the power to raise the embargo—to raise that embargo whenever in his judgment the possibility of disease spreading in this country or any infection arising there from is over? I am perfectly aware that a great number of Members of this House are naturally highly nervous with regard to the possibility of foot-and-mouth disease being imported into this country from the fact that we bring live animals. But I think that in the few minutes I shall take up I shall be able to prove conclusively that the risk is far less in bringing animals that are alive than in allowing residue of the slaughter-houses of the countries on the River Plate, their tank-age, and the different parts of the animals, to come here without any inspection to be spread about this country. A Committee has lately been sitting, and has taken evidence upon this point. Before referring to the actual evidence that was given before that Committee, I would like to criticise the reference which the President of the Board set before the Committee which was appointed to look into the question of foot-and-mouth disease. This read as follows:—
Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that the Chairman of the Committee stated that it was not in our province to inquire into the cause of foot-and-mouth disease?
I read the words.
Yes, but I thought the hon. Gentleman stated that the cause of foot-and-mouth disease was no part of our reference.
9.0 P.M.
What I want the Committee to understand is that by thus restricting the nature of the inquiry certain evidence that had been carefully prepared for the Committee was ruled out, and other people, owing to the narrow wording of the reference, were unable to give evidence before that Committee because they knew that matters they wished to speak about would be outside the reference, and I was criticising the actual reference, which I have just read. The Report of that Committee has been recently issued, so recently that there has hardly been time for any of us to consider it very carefully. The point I was about to raise has been brought out by one of the witnesses—Mr. Mark Furnival—a gentleman who is a member of the town council of Birkenhead, and who has devoted an enormous wealth of time to the study of this question, because it so closely affects one of our great industries in the town of Birkenhead. His evidence is in no way the expert evidence of a man financially interested in changing the embargo or raising the embargo. In his evidence he produced a letter which was sent to him pointing out that which the writer places as one of the causes why foot-and-mouth disease spreads in this country. It is therefore pertinent to the Board of Agriculture, especially if no evidence can be found as to why this disease spreads up and down the country in the extraordinary way that it does. I should like to read the letter because, as far as I can understand the matter, it gives one of the practical possibilities of how this disease appears in Penrith to-day and somewhere else tomorrow, though there has been no importation of any animals; so that we wonder how the infection has spread. Here is a practical man's idea:— largely used in fertilisers in this country. We have no kind of inspection of any sort of what is going on in these slaughterhouses. I claim that upon this question of health it is vitally necessary that we make an entire change in our policy, and that if anything is to be stopped coming into this country it is frozen meat, because there we have no manner of inspection with a chance of detecting the disease. You can always detect the disease if the animal is imported alive, but it is well known that if certain portions of the animals are left in the country of origin, and only the edible portion of the best joints are sent here there is no chance of detecting the germs of the disease. An inspector must have the whole animal before him, and for the health of our people I say it is a most desirable thing that that should be the case.
We all know the President of the Board of Agriculture finds much difficulty in moving in this matter. There is in this country an enormous consensus of public opinion that it is the importation of the live animals that is attended with risk, and it is my duty, if possible, to prove to this Committee that that is an unfounded fear. If the President of the Board of Agriculture could change the Regulations, and say, "We will have a time of quarantine in the River Plate before the cattle go on board the steamer." I believe all parties are prepared to do that. The evidence submitted in this Report is that this disease always shows itself within four or five days; but suppose you allow seven days or a fortnight. If the President of the Board of Agriculture would make a regulation that any live animals shipped from the Argentine to this country must not go on board the steamer until his own inspector certifies that the animals have been fourteen days in quarantine, you would have an effective safeguard. But in addition to that there is a twenty-five or thirty days quarantine on the voyage, and, in addition to that, there is inspection by the Board's own officer on arrival. When the animals arrive in the Clyde, the Mersey, or the Thames there are men of the greatest expert ability to detect the diseases in these animals. The hon. Member for Deptford did not mention one thing. Under the present regulations there is no fear of the offal of the live animal finding its way into manure or anything else. It is destroyed entirely, and there is no fear of the offal or dry blood being used for fertilisers. The moment an animal is condemned in Deptford or Birkenhead as having any sort of contagious disease upon it, it is destroyed utterly, and therefore there is nothing that can go into the fertilising material to go upon the land. Upon that question there is no reason why the President of the Board of Agriculture should not use his own argument. The hon. Member for Deptford made a strong point that here is our own President of the Board of Agriculture cabling to the Argentine Government asking: "Will you consider the possibility of meeting us and not putting on the restriction, because we believe the disease is located in a certain spot and can be isolated." In this vast country of the Argentine I can assure the Committee from my own knowledge that there are great areas absolutely free from this disease, but the Argentine Government feel a difficulty in giving an assurance that the whole country is free. If our Government in response to these cables get a cable back from the Argentine saying, "We will agree if you will allow the Argentine to be divided into provinces, and schedule certain provinces as contaminated with this disease, and other provinces clear," then I believe we should be meeting one another in a reasonable spirit.
It is nonsense to talk of this disease with the same dread as used to exist twenty years ago, because science has advanced a great deal. We know that many of the diseases of our own race which we dreaded in the past are to-day matters of no fear at all, and surely the scientific advance which has been made with regard to the treatment of the diseases of our own race can also be claimed with regard to safeguarding the importation of live cattle, and, therefore, we can throw aside many of our fears. Apart from the fears for our health there is a great deal of dread on the part of our friends from the Emerald Isle as to whether the importation of live cattle will not be a great competitor to their great industry of raising cattle in Ireland. I want to show that that is also an absolutely false dread and fear. I am a business man and have been all my life, and I think I understand the laws of competition. The effect of allowing the importation of live cattle from the Argentine will not mean one more beast killed because the value of the animal is so great that it is never held over, and whether the beast is imported alive or frozen there will not be one more beast coming to this market if you raise the embargo than if you say to the man in the Argentine you must kill your beast before you ship him. If I were rearing cattle in Ireland or in the rural parts of England I would rather face the competition of the live animal than the dead meat. When you import the live animal the party doing the business must spend nearly £2 a head more than if he brings the animal in as a frozen carcass. Therefore the competition is less keen because the seller has had to put on to the price of the animal a very considerable increase owing to the freight on a live animal being more than upon a frozen carcass, and therefore the competition will be less instead of more—or at any rate it would be more if the same quantity of frozen meat came, but you cannot have it both ways.
It takes three years to mature an animal for the market, and the moment he is ready for the market he is slaughtered. There is no hope of getting a supply from the United States in any quantity. On this point I will give a few figures. The quantity we imported in the year 1906 from all countries, when we were still under the embargo, was 565,000 head of live cattle, and in 1910 the number was 219,000, and every year between shows a steady decline. We can prove that the Argentine has in the meantime so developed her stock that she could now find the number of beasts which are coming here alive. That is proved by the actual quantity of chilled meat shipped by the Argentine to this country. In the year 1906 we imported 2,814,000 quarters of chilled and frozen meat and in 1910 we imported 4,344,000 quarters. That shows that the available supply is in the Argentine, and it is simply a question for the Board of Agriculture to say whether he will take the supply alive or take it chilled. On the question of the health and the food of the people, I do not think there is any doubt in the minds of those who have studied this matter that it is better for the people to be fed on fresh-killed meat than on frozen meat. I will repeat a little story which shows this point clearly to my mind. In the town of Birkenhead in one street there is a butcher's shop where no foreign meat is sold, and another shop where they do not sell anything else but; Argentine and frozen imported meat. The wife of the butcher at the foreign meat shop, whenever her children were ill and wanted beef tea, always went across the road to buy her meat at the shop where only fresh meat was sold. Many of us know that beef tea made from fresh meat is a stimulant and a medicine of great value and that frozen meat is of little or no value for beef tea. I think on that ground also the President of the Board of Agriculture should consider this question.
I hope he will make up his mind that it is possible to segregate that vast country of the Argentine into provinces and; cable to the Government there asking whether certain provinces are clear. I hope he will also consider whether it is possible in some way or another to have inspectors there, because it is so vital to. our farmers in England to have some inspectors in those great refrigerating establishments in the Argentine to inspect the animals killed there in order to secure that the fertilising material sent over here is free from foot-and-mouth disease. If the-right hon. Gentleman will do that he will be doing something to protect the English farmer. At the present time he is doing nothing by simply prohibiting the importation of the live animal. The hon. Member for Deptford has already brought up the point that in the great ports on the Clyde, the Mersey, and the Thames, there is a large population dependent upon this industry, and the suffering of the people in Birkenhead and other places owing to the fact that no live cattle can be imported from foreign countries has been terrible. It is true there has been work in other trades, but, as men have said to me, "although there is work in the shipbuilding yard, we, who have been trained in this business, cannot get a job there because we have not served our time to it. We are only common labourers when we are turned out of our natural line of industry." I put it to the Committee if the employment that is given is not something worths consideration.
Every beast brought into this country alive means £3 paid in wages in various. industries. There is a case about which a question will be asked to-morrow: Why the Navy are allowing the soles of our sailors' boots to be made with foreign imported leather? It partly arises from the fact that we are not importing the live cattle. If we open our doors and import 300,000 head of cattle, it means 300,000 hides. That means an enormous quantity of leather, and it means work of every description in the leather trade. To-day those animals are killed in the Argentine and bought by buyers from the United States, who take away the hides to America, turn them into leather, and then send them over here. If we had this embargo raised, I claim we could within a few years import 300,000 head of cattle into this country. That would mean £900,000 a year paid in wages to the people of this country, and surely that is an item the House of Commons should take into consideration. The President of the Board of Agriculture has talked about an industry even giving employment to ten men as of moment. Does he not think, if I can prove that by writing one line on a sheet of paper and by raising this embargo from all provinces which are guaranteed by the Argentine Government to be free from foot-and-mouth disease he can secure £900,000 a year paid in wages to his own countrymen, he will be doing something that will really be for the betterment of his own people? I can assure him, after long study of the question, he will be doing the right thing if in the case of a country like Argentina, where the animals are bred from our own stock, he can possibly see his way to change these restrictions and so make it possible for the live stock to come to this country.
While I appreciate fully the importance of the question which has just been discussed by the two hon. Members who have preceded me, I do not propose to follow that line at all, though in passing I would observe that the leather trade of this country is certainly suffering from a shortage of hides. My business here is to speak on behalf of the agriculturists of Wales, and I would at the outset disclaim any expert knowledge of any kind. We are indebted to the President of the Board of Agriculture not only for his speech this afternoon, but also for his enlightened administration of this great Department. I find more satisfaction in that fact because on his appointment I ventured to tell my countrymen that the ability and resourcefulness of a business man was likely to prove of substantial advantage to the Department. I believe that has been largely justified. I would thank him, too, for the action he has already taken, and is about to take, in the matter of the agricultural interests of Wales. We are particularly indebted to him for his ready recognition of Wales as a separate entity. He follows in that respect an example set him some twenty years ago when a Commission was established to inquire into the agricultural conditions of the Principality. As long ago as 1893 that Commission reported to the effect that the agricultural conditions of Wales were of a very special character, and that approximated much more closely to the conditions in Ireland and the Highlands of Scotland than to any in England. We all know, and I am sure we none of us regret, the infinitude of attention and treasure which has been lavished upon Irish agriculture, and it is within the knowledge of the House I suppose that from 1896 forward Scotland, too, has enjoyed a sum of £15,000 per annum under its Congested Districts Board. In addition to that, last year, very properly I think, a Department of Agriculture for Scotland was established with an annual revenue of £200,000. If generosity to Ireland be justified on the ground of its poverty, no such plea can be adduced for the more liberal treatment now extended to Scotland. Wales may not be as indigent as Ireland, but, on the other hand, it is not nearly so prosperous and wealthy as Scotland.
Apart, however, from these questions of comparative merit and demerit, there are admirable and adequate grounds for the separate treatment of Wales. It is preeminently a country of small holdings, its flocks and herds are exceptionally large in proportion to its area, its agriculturists very largely conduct their daily avocation and transactions in a tongue not understanded of London Departments and their officials, and, above all, the return from the soil in which the nation itself is so vitally interested is unsatisfactory and disappointing, while the population itself in the rural districts is either stationary or diminishing. During the last decade the decrease in Merionethshire was 3,279, in Montgomeryshire 1,754, in Cardiganshire 1,201, in Radnorshire 692, Carnarvonshire 600, while Anglesey showed a gain of only 337. In these six counties there is a net decrease of 7,189 persons. I submit that for Wales this is a very deplorable showing. We have at our doors in the great manufacturing and mining population of Glamorganshire and Monmouthshire, and in lesser degree Carmarthenshire, Denbighshire, and Flintshire, markets for agricultural products so great in extent and value that agriculture in Wales should be a highly prosperous industry readily able to retain and employ profitably an increasing rather than diminishing rural population. I think we may fairly say, if the condition of Welsh agriculture is not prosperous, it is very largely to be attributed to the protracted and conspicuous neglect of Welsh agricultural interests by this House. I need not recall to the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman certain very definite recommendations which were made by the Welsh Land Commission in 1893. No serious effort has been made by either party to give effect to them, and the assistance and encouragement extended to agricultural education and organisation in Wales has been insignificant, if not wholly negligible, the contrast between the outcome of State aid and encouragement in Ireland and apathy and neglect in Wales being very striking. The bushels per acre obtained from the soil in Ireland and Wales, respectively, during the three years 1908–1910, were as follows:—
Ireland Wales. Wheat 38.09 … 27.58 Barley 44.17 … 31.31 Oats 51.15 … 35.83 Hay from permanent grass 46.26 … 20.31
The difference is startling, and if the poorer results obtained in Wales are really the result of a less kindly and prolific soil, then it is very evident that it is the Welsh farmer who stands in the greater need of State assistance and guidance. Calculating upon a uniform scale of average prices, the value of the Welsh crops of wheat, barley, oats, and hay, in 1910, were £4 6s. 5d. per acre. If our results in bushels per acre had been identical with those of Ireland, it would have been £7 19s. 2d. per acre: in the former case £4,524,727; in the latter, £8,335,425—an increase of £3,810,698. To my mind it is very clear that all the money spent in Ire-and upon its agricultural organisation and development has been an excellent investment. Some two years ago a deputation of farmers from Glamorganshire went over to Ireland and witnessed for themselves the progress achieved there, and that is very much the genesis of the present movement in Wales, the progress of which has, however, been greatly accelerated by the apathy, and I am afraid the hostility of the English Board of Agriculture. We have no complaint whatever against the present President; and even of his predecessor I can only say, that I, personally, found him wholly sympathetic. In spite of this, however, the Board itself, which, I suppose, is a polite fiction for the permanent officials, is very generally regarded in Wales as unsympathetic, supercilious, unhelpful, and for the most part, obstructive. The demands formulated by the Welsh county councils and colleges for
" To expect that Wales will be satisfied with some small administrative concessions such as are offered by the Board of Agriculture, is itself a sufficient proof of that Board's want of knowledge of what Wales requires."
From Cardiganshire I get the words:—
"I hope all members of the Executive Committee will fight firmly for a separate Department: we must have control of the Grant secured. The breeding and rearing of livestock should have the urgent attention of the Department by granting premiums towards improving the same. Forestry and the reclaiming of wet lands are important subjects."
A Glamorganshire agriculturist says:—
" There is a strong feeling here that the present suggestions are likely to be of no benefit, and that we should make a determined stand for a separate Department of Agriculture similar to the Irish Department."
A Carmarthen farmer writes:—
" The only point I would wish to draw your attention to is that the Board of Agriculture have quite utterly failed to administer the Development Fund. It is now two years, within a few days, since the deputation from Wales waited upon the Development Commissioners in London with an application for a Grant, and they, at the same time, asked that a Central Committee for Wales be granted for the administration of funds allocated to Wales by the Commissioners. This has not been granted, but we were informed that the county councils in every county should prepare schemes and forward to the Board of Agriculture, which was done within a couple of months of the meeting held in London. From that time to this, it appears, so far as our county councils and the public generally are concerned, nothing has been done by the Board beyond sending a representative down to meet the Committee, with a view to reducing the application which was made by the Carmarthenshire County Council. This meeting took place on the 2nd of November last, and the probability is that the 2nd of November will come around again before anything is done by the present-Board."
From Denbighshire I am informed:—
" As to the County Council Development claims, I fear they are rather futile so far."
From Montgomeryshire I learn:—
" Very little, if anything, has been done in the way of Government assistance towards agricultural development in this country. We placed before the Commissioners a long time ago a claim for agricultural development, which I think interested them favourably, but beyond what has been done by private enterprise, and at the ratepayers' expense, so far as I know we have not had any encouragement from the Commissioners. I ought to exclude from the remarks the premiums given to hunters and Welsh cob and pony, stallions."
I am sorry the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Bigland) is not here, because he impugned to a certain extent the recommendations of the Committee which recently inquired into the question of foot-and-mouth disease, the importation of foreign live cattle into this country. The hon. Member complained that the Chairman ruled as being outside the reference to the Committee the whole question of the importation of live cattle. No doubt it was outside the reference, but the Chairman allowed certain evidence to be given. The Chairman felt that the matters we had to inquire into were so important and so intricate that it would be very unwise, even if it had been within our power to do so, to enter upon a problem which was outside the reference. I can say that the vast accumulation of evidence which came before us corroborated the opinion of a very large majority in this House that it would be a great danger, at this particular moment, to increase the risk which this country is already running of having foot-and-mouth disease imported by further means than those which are possible at the present time. The hon. Member very naturally spoke about the unemployment in Birkenhead. It is right that he should represent the grievances of many of his? constituents. That, no doubt, was the case of the hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Bowerman). The whole interests of the agriculturists of this country and the great question of the food supply of the whole population are far more important than the grievances of any section of the community, however much we may sympathise with them and may wish to remove those grievances. The hon. Member declared that the main cause of the importation of foot-and-mouth disease into this country was the offal which came from the Argentine. All I can say in answer to that is that we had no evience brought before us to connect any of the particular outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease which we investigated with this particular form of offal.
The impression made on my mind, after sitting many days on the Committee, was that it would be a very dangerous thing at this time, when we are already subject to a great risk of foot-and-mouth disease being brought here from all the countries on the Continent of Europe, to increase that danger by opening another source of infection, especially in view of the very grave character of the infection which this disease possesses. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon having appointed that Committee, upon having done his utmost to prevent the further spread of the disease in this country, and upon the excellent measures which the Board have taken in fighting the various outbreaks when they occurred in this country. The evidence we had before the Committee tended to scotch three cries raised about the outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease. Before the Committee met, I heard three things said. One was that we ought to have some experimental station for investigating the nature of this and other cattle diseases. All the evidence brought before us went to show the immense danger of that step, not only to the stock in this country, but as creating an infected centre which would prevent those who wish to buy stock from us from doing so. Secondly, it was said that the cases of foot-and-mouth disease which occurred in this country were not in fact cases of foot-and-mouth disease, but something analogous to it, and that in reality there was far too much fuss about it. That was amply disproved by the evidence brought before the Committee, and no one will now contend that any but the best and safest methods of protection should be taken by the Board of Agriculture in dealing with these cases. Thirdly, I do not think anyone who read the evidence given before the Committee could possibly make the statement which the hon. Member (Mr. Bigland) made this evening, that we did not inquire into the cause of the disease or could even suggest that the recommendations we made as to the danger of incurring further risk in the matter was too great for the country to incur in view of all the extra risks which we already incur.
This is a most important matter, not only for the stock of the country, but also for the food supply, and I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will do his utmost to carry into effect as soon as possible some of the recommendations which were made by that Committee. One was that the veterinary opinion of this country is not sufficiently educated in these matters, because our veterinary officers have not had the proper experience which is necessary to combat this disease owing to the fact that, fortunately, this country has been very largely immune for a Very long time. What happens now? You get an outbreak. At once all the available staff of the Board of Agriculture, the few experts who really understand the disease, and have had previous experience of it, go to the centre of the outbreak. But supposing there are two or three simultaneous outbreaks and, as has been proved by the importation of hay and straw, even by the flight of birds, and by any kind of contact, it is possible for this form of contagion to bring disease into the country, it is quite possible that there might be three or four outbreaks occurring at any moment. We have not a staff sufficient to deal with an occurrence of that sort, therefore the Committee recommended that there should be an increased veterinary staff of the Board of Agriculture with complete and full knowledge of this and other kindred diseases, and that measures should be taken by which there might be better instruction given to our veterinary staff and by which the staff of the Board of Agriculture should be increased and should be available to a larger extent than now to deal with any outbreaks which might occur at the same time. Another suggestion was that, if possible, by means of the veterinary congress which is to assemble in this country shortly, the Government should encourage co-operation between the various foreign countries to do their utmost to extirpate the disease. I hope these two recommendations will not be neglected by the right hon. Gentleman, and that the value of the inquiry which he has set on foot will thereby be increased and will have permanent results.
I should like to say a word on the subject of swine fever. I think the House and the country will be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his statement this evening, in which he indicated that he was going to alter the present most irritating and troublesome restrictions which have been carried into effect during a good many years now, because I am certain there is not one single thing that has irritated the farmers of the country more, with fewer results, than this matter of the Swine Fever Regulations, more particularly because they have felt, as everyone who understands the interests of agriculture has felt, that they have not secured any adequate results. I Rope the measures which the right hon. Gentleman is going to take now will be more effective in future than these Regulations have been in the past. At any rate, I hope they will not be so irritating to the farming community. I am quite certain that if the farming community realises that they are effective they will not mind the irritation, but what has annoyed them about these Regulations is that they have realised that they have not been effective, and at the same time their irritation has been enormous.
The statements which have been made from these benches about the Small Holdings Commission have been several times challenged. We have asked whether there was evidence that the six new Small Holdings Commissioners have had a proportionate effect upon the work of creating and distributing small holdings among the community. It is perfectly evident that, though the Report of the Small Holdings Commissioners states that there is an increased demand and an increased production of small holdings in the past year over previous years, no one can say that there is an increase in proportion to the increase of the Small Holdings Commission. We have now eight Small Holdings Commissioners whereas we had two. No one can say that four times the amount of small holdings are being created, or that there is four times the demand there used to be There may be a slight increase, but no one can say there is any justification for the increased expenditure and for the formation of these very comfortable appointments which are now being enjoyed by various gentlemen who are, no doubt, doing their best to fulfil them. A great many of them must be useless in view of the evidence we have had. I should be very glad to see an increase in small holdings. I would far rather see that than an increase in useless officials. I certainly cannot find in that Report any sufficient evidence for the need of these appointments and for the expense which is incurred by them. All sections of the House will thank the right hon. Gentleman for the statement he has made to-night. The whole agricultural community will realise that he is doing his very utmost and that we have a great deal to thank him for. I should not like to sit here without saying that. It is only fair in view of some of the things which were said at the time of his appointment.
I should like to join very heartily in what the hon. Member has said in congratulating the right hon. Gentleman upon the admirable Report which he was able to give us to-day on the work of his Department in past years. I should like at the same time to join issue with him in regard to what he said as to the appointment of Small Holdings Commissioners. I notice that he changed a good deal from the position which had been taken up on those benches earlier in the day. Earlier in the day the hon. Member (Mr. C. Bathurst) told us that practically the demand for small holdings had come to an end, that the thing was dying out, and that the demand was decreasing, and, therefore, in a short time the new Commissioners would have really no adequate work to do. Now the hon. Member proposes an entirely new test, and says the numerical returns show that the appointment of the Commissioners has not been justified by the result. The Commissioners have only been appointed just over a year. They had an immense lot of arrears to make up and inquiries to make as to the work that has been left undone by county councils, and I should have thought he would have been the last to suggest that a mere return of the number of men put upon the land is itself the only evidence of the work which the Commissioners are doing. Not only do we want to see men put upon the land, but we want to see them put upon the land under the best possible conditions. We want to know that the scheme will be the best scheme. There is a great deal to be done in the way of revising schemes submitted by the county councils, and I have reason to believe the Commissioners are now doing it. I should like to inquire a little further as to this question of the demand for land. The hon. Member for the Wilton Division (Mr. C. Bathurst) said the average of the demand during last year was smaller than during the three preceding years.
I wish to make this perfectly clear. The average demand during the last completed year was considerably smaller than the average of the aggregate of the three preceding years
That is perfectly true, but, as has already been pointed out to the hon. Member, that is a most misleading comparison. At the time the Act came into operation the agricultural community had been looking forward for something like thirty years for a measure of this sort. They had been waiting and hoping for an Act which would give them the chance of coming on the land. In the first year 23,000 persons immediately applied for land, and 15,000 of the applications were approved by the county councils. That obviously was an altogether exceptional year. But if he takes the years 1909, 1910, and 1911, and compares them, he will find that there has been since the first year a steady increase in the applications to the county councils for small holdings.
I do not think the hon. Gentleman perfectly understands my point. I was not suggesting that the demand does not continue to be made. What I said was only relative to the question whether, when the number to which I referred had to be dealt with, there were two Commissioners, it is necessary now to have six extra Commissioners, when, as a matter of fact, the average demand has fallen.
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As a matter of fact, the hon. Gentleman suggested in his speech that the demand was coming to an end-It is evident that the demand is still increasing, and that it is increasing in proportion to the work done by the county councils. If you take last year, you will find that the largest increase in the applications was in the county of Norfolk, in which most work has been done. There was also a large increase in the demand for land in the counties of Cambridge, Bedford, and Somerset, where admirable work has been done. The county in which there was the smallest increase—only one application—was the North Riding of Yorkshire, in which practically no work has been done. I submit that not only is there a satisfactory increase in the demand for land, but that the increase would be larger still if the Act were carried out in all the counties as it has been carried out in some. The justification for additional Commissioners is that every one of the schemes should be much better revised than they have been in the past, and also because the standard in some of the weak counties should be brought up to that of some of the other counties. I was rather disappointed in one respect at the speech of my right hon. Friend. He did not make any reference to the counties in which the Act at present was not being carried out. At all events, he did not make much reference to that subject. I do not think he told us what steps he was going to take in such counties as East Sussex, West Sussex, the North Riding of Yorkshire, and Derby. It might be suggested that there is no real demand in those places. I have taken the trouble to ascertain the number of applications in those counties in the first year in which the Act was in operation. In East Sussex alone there were, in the first year, 129 applicants, of whom seventy-seven were approved by the county council, and yet during the four years that have since elapsed they have only succeeded in putting twenty-two men on the land. In West Sussex there were ninety-seven applicants in the first year, sixty-six of whom were approved by the county council, and only seven have been placed on the land. In the North Riding of Yorkshire there were 292 applicants in the first year, of whom 143 were approved by the county council, and only nine have been placed on the land. These figures account for a good deal of the disappointment and dissatisfaction which this Act has certainly aroused.
I wish to say a word as to the remedy. We are continually accused on this side of the House of desiring to see pressure and coercion brought to bear on county councils. We are told that the county councils are doing admirable work, and that we stand in the way by girding at the Board of Agriculture and my right hon. Friend for not coercing them in the way they ought to be coerced. For my own part, I believe there is nothing more futile than this idea of bringing pressure to bear, coercing them, or gingering them in any "way. If a county council is unwilling to administer the Act, I am perfectly certain that no amount of pressure will ever induce them to administer it properly. The result of attempting to coerce them would be the loss of a great deal of temper, and in the end the unfortunate applicant would find himself offered a, piece of land he does not want at a rent he cannot? afford to pay. The only way in cases where county councils have failed to administer the Act is that the Commissioners under the direction of the Board of Agriculture should themselves ascertain the demand and make schemes, and then within six months take action for putting persons on the land. It may be said that is a method of coercion. I venture to suggest that if the Board of Agriculture approach the county councils in the right spirit, it will be found that many councils would be glad that the Board should have the responsibility of taking direct action themselves. If they make it certain that they will not take undue advantage of the Clause in the Act which enables the Board to charge certain expenses against a council, there will be no difficulty in connection with this policy. There are 7,000 acres of Crown land let out as small holdings and allotments, and I see no reason why that number should not be largely increased if the right hon. Gentleman would really put into force in suitable areas the powers which this Act gives him. I therefore am sorry that we have not had a statement to that effect.
I would congratulate my right hon. Friend on what he said as to the question of rating. It is very good news that he has got that matter within his contemplation. It seems to me a monstrous thing that not only should small holding tenants now have to pay rent at a much higher rate generally than his neighbour on a large farm, because it is divided up land, but that he should have to pay rates on this higher rent, and he has to pay rates also on the expenses of management which are included in the rental. To make it quite clear, say there is a farm of 100 acres let at £100 per year, divided up into ten farms of ten acres each. Obviously, after dividing it up, you have to add on something for the expenses of dividing up—fencing, and so on—and you also have to add something in respect of the expenses of management. When the whole sum has been apportioned, the rates are raised in proportion to the extra amount which the small holder will have to pay, as compared with the large farmer who originally rented the land. That is extremely unfair to the new applicant. In addition to that, as we all know, under the present absurd system they are rated upon the improvements which they make. It is a remarkable thing that in spite of all that we find in this Report that the rents have been most punctually paid; cultivation on the whole is satisfactory; there have been very few failures; very few tenants have given up their holdings or received notice to quit, and the proportion of unsatisfactory tenants under the county council, taken all round, is less than one-half per. cent. of all the tenants since the Act came into operation. I think the Government may fairly congratulate themselves on the success which in recent years this Act has had. A great deal requires still to be done. I trust that in the future, instead of the complaints which are contained in this Report, to the effect that certain county councils will not do what is expected of them, we may see the President of the Board of Agriculture taking his courage in both hands, and putting into actual operation the default powers which this Act has given him.
The hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Morrell) has touched on one or two very large questions. One of them is the rating question. It would not be either wise, or, I think, in order, to attempt to deal with it at any length, but I am extremely glad that he and other hon. Gentleman who have spoken on that side of the House have called attention to a position of familiar hardship, which they appear to suppose only affects small holders. The position of the small holder has brought it to their notice, and has caused them to realise the hardship which does not affect the small holder only, but affects everybody in this country who is conducting any industry in land. Obviously the injustice requires a remedy, and it is also obvious that it would not be in order in this Debate to discuss the remedy for a system which affects all industries in the country on the question of agriculture alone. I will only say on that that the cheers from the other side which greeted my remarks proceeded from certain hon. Gentlemen who appear to think that all the remedy is to pile upon land all the burdens, including this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Land values."] I am afraid that when the unfortunate occupier or owner of land has to pay the rate it will not make much difference whether they say it is on his land or on his land value. I will not pursue that further than to say that if the evil is realised I hope the remedy applied will be applied equally to all kinds of property affected, and that the national burdens will be borne by the whole nation equitably, according to their ability to bear them. There was a very important question referred to by the hon. Member for Burnley in regard to small holdings as to which we had some very interesting statements from the President of the Board of Agriculture himself.
I agree with my hon. Friends behind me that no case has been made out, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that he did not make out a case himself for the addition of the six other Commissioners. The reason apparently given by the right hon. Gentleman as to why he approved of the appointment of these Commissioners does not seem to me to be a very good reason. He appeared to think that the mere fact that some counties had made much greater progress in the creation of small holdings than other counties proceeded from one cause only, and that if one county, such as Cambridge, has succeeded in creating a large number of successful small holdings, while another county, such as the North Riding of Yorkshire, has created only a small number, that is due solely to the want of enterprise of and is the fault of the inhabitants and the county council of the North Riding of Yorkshire. Does it not occur to him that counties in England differ enormously in their character? Does the hon. Member say that it is as easy to create successful small holdings in the North Riding of Yorkshire as in Cambridgeshire? If he will look at the facts he will know that Cambridge was a county of small holdings long before this Act was passed, Cambridgeshire, the Fen districts of Lincolnshire, and the Isle of Ely, always have been and always will be areas pre-eminently suited to small holdings, and they maintain more small holdings than any other part of the country, because the land is land of extraordinary quality and, what is of great importance, of even quality. And therefore you could break the farms up and practically all parts of the farm are suitable for subdivision into small holdings.
But in a county such as the North Biding of Yorkshire you have great areas of moor and large farms, partly sheep farms, partly grazing farms, and partly tillage farms of very varying character, with little bits of grazing land and little bits of good land which would grow feeding stuff in seasons when lighter land will not grow feeding stuff. And those little bits of land are known as the eyes of those farms. They are usually near the villages. The villages have naturally grown up in the course of ages on the best spots of land, and therefore the places where people have naturally settled. What is the nature of the demand in those cases? The butcher and baker and small village tradesman naturally and properly say to themselves, "It would help my business if I could get five or ten acres "—or whatever it may be—"of the grass field adjoining my shop, or of that good bit of land on which I could grow some oats for my horses." He makes the application and it is duly gone into; but does the hon. Member suggest that either the Board of Agriculture or the county council should take the eye out of that farm, a farm which employs ten or perhaps a dozen labourers, and should make that farm practically worthless, in order to supply that one small holding? I am sure the hon. Member does not suggest that. The figure he gave requires very much more examination and justification before he holds up the county councils of East Sussex or the North Riding of Yorkshire, as failing in their duty and as requiring to be replaced by the direct action of the Board of Agriculture.
I only quoted these as extreme instances, but an examination of other counties shows that there is a good deal of justification for the argument which I used. There is great variety in the action of the different county councils.
I do not think the variety in the action of the county councils is anything like as great as the variety in the land of the districts of the different county councils. I should be the last to say that every county council has used equal diligence, but I do say that the diligence of the county council has been propor-portionate, as a rule, to the opportunity which the county really presents. I do not think it is fair to criticise any particular county council by name in this House unless a very careful investigation has been made by the hon. Member, and unless, by real facts, he can show that the demand is genuine, and that the Act could really have been applied with due regard to the economic conditions in the county. I do not think the hon. Member has shown that, and, until that is shown, I personally can see no reason for the appointment of these additional Commissioners to apply what is called "ginger" to the county councils, who must have a better knowledge of the conditions of agriculture in their own counties than anybody else outside them. I now pass to a subject of very great importance. I think it must have struck every hon. Member who has listened to this Debate that throughout the fair, lucid, and interesting speech of the President of the Board of Agriculture, in every second or third sentence we had a phrase of this kind:" I will ask the Development Commissioners to allow me to apply money to this, that, or the other." Is that really the position in which we ought to be in this House? Here we have a large sum of money devoted to this purpose of agricultural development, and who ought to be responsible to this House in regard to its expenditure? In my view the President of the Board of Agriculture, who has direct responsibility to this House, and who is a Cabinet Minister, is a more fitting person to be charged with that responsibility to allocate those Grants than a comparatively irresponsible body not holding a position anything like equal to that held by the right hon. Gentleman in his Department, and I think that neither his responsibility nor the industry of agriculture is in any way benefited by this circumlocution by which. a Cabinet Minister has to go to the Chairman of the Development Commissioners, hat in hand, and ask to be allowed to spend this little bit of money or that little bit of money upon the development of agriculture.
Surely whatever sum of money this House can afford for the development of the agricultural industry had much better be entrusted in the lump to the Minister of Agriculture and his Department, and let him come to this House with full responsibility for its expenditure, both present and future. I hope that, matter may be considered. The right hon. Gentleman spoke at some length about afforestation, and he told us of some proposal he would make. I was glad to hear his admission that Crown Woods ought to be an example in the matter, and that one of the most important items in successful management was a balance sheet. I am sure he will admit that, so far as we have yet had any information, no satisfactory balance sheet has yet been produced for any Crown Woods. I have never yet seen one, and I know that it takes a long time. A satisfactory balance sheet for woodlands must take a good many years to produce. I think the right hon. Gentleman knows that, and I am afraid it will be a great many years before he is able to convert the existing woodlands on Crown Lands into profitable, going concerns. So far as the future planting is concerned, he has been good enough to suggest that advice will be available. I think that is valuable. He referred particularly to advice to be given to owners of large estates. I myself would think that the advice would be more necessary and valuable to the owners of small agricultural property, because owners of large estates are able to have, and usually have, competent foresters and get competent advice. I think, if one thing is more common than another, it is to see plantations on small agricultural properties in a neglected condition. It would be a great advantage to the owners of those small properties who cannot afford to employ expert advice to obtain the advice of an expert official supplied to them by the Department.
I did venture to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman when he was speaking as to the importance of the Crown setting an example to private owners. My interjection was: Had he forgotten the Death Duties? I was not referring to the general burdens of the Death Duties. I think, perhaps, I ought not to have interrupted the right hon. Gentleman, who appeared to take my interruption as referring to the general burdens. My point was not as to the general burdens, but as to the way it falls on afforestation and on growing timber. I think I might be justified in asking him when he draws up a balance-sheet as to the Crown lands, to let him take the burden of Death Duties that would fall on the private individual and subtract that from the profit on Crown estates before he produces his figures for compartive purposes as to planting. I submit one of the duties of the Minister representing agriculture in this House and a Minister in the Cabinet ought to be to make himself really acquainted with the real weight of the burdens which are thrown upon agriculture by legislation promoted by the Government. I want him, from the broadest, fairest point of view, to do that, and I think it is his duty in the Cabinet, when he is satisfied by his own observation and investigation that unfair and crushing burdens are directly or indirectly put upon the industry he represents, to use his influence in the Cabinet to obtain fair treatment for the agricultural industry. As an instance, I ask him, though I do not wish to make a statement, for himself with the expert information which he can obtain as a Member of the Government from Somerset House and from his own Department, to look into this matter of the burden of the Death Duties upon timber. If he finds that, as compared with pictures and other articles, timber is unduly and heavily taxed, and if he thinks his schemes and the money he is going to spend out of the Development Grant to induce owners of land to make better use of their land by planting timber, that those efforts are going to be hindered and hampered by the heavy burden which is now placed on that timber directly in the form of Duties, I hope he will do what he can to induce the Chancellor of the Exchequer to so adjust the burden that timber will pay its fair share, like other forms of property, to the general expenditure, and that it will not bear such an undue burden as will prove a deterrent to that particular industry.
I can add nothing to the words spoken by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Chaplin) in regard to horse breeding. His experience is unrivalled. We are in the face of a new situation. Everybody must realise that the general road traffic of the country is passing rapidly from horse to motor traction. That must have a detrimental effect. upon horse breeding. So far as I know horses are as necessary for military purposes as they ever were, but I believe that the number necessary for our comparatively small military requirements is not to be found in the country to-day. I am not sure that even the figures now given can be altogether relied upon. I heard a rather amusing, but I believe perfectly true, story about one of the officers who was going round registering horses. He-found in one stable a very likely horse, and marked it to be registered. The owner said, "That is quite a nice horse; I do not wonder you desire to register him. Another of your officers, but of a different: corps, has been here to have it registered." I do not know how many times some horses may have been registered under your different systems. The matter requires a little looking into. I believe we are 40,000 horses short in this country. Practically all the bus horses are gone. They were the most valuable reserve of horses the Army could possibly have. The hunter is no use for Service purposes. The hunter is an animal whose life consists in being most carefully kept, perfectly groomed, admirably fed, and trained to make a great effort once or twice a week. That is not the animal you want for Service purposes. What is desired is an animal used to roughing it, accustomed to working long hours, not necessarily very fast, of sound constitution, and able to stand bad weather—a hardy animal. The 'bus horse satisfied these conditions very closely. The duty which now falls upon the President of the Board of Agriculture is to use a portion of the Development Grant to increase the horse supply of the country. That is daily becoming more a State burden than it used to be. I strongly endorse the remarks of my right hon. Friend as to the necessity of the Government's taking this matter in hand, and, where necessary, actually purchasing stallions. They purchase mares, and if money is found for that purpose it is obviously equally necessary to purchase stallions. I believe that every other country does it. I remember that when staying in France at a small country town surrounded by small farms, I found a corporal and private of French Cavalry stationed there with two Government stallions available for the mares of the farmers. in that district. That is the procedure of French Government. We have nothing to correspond to it. Something of the kind will have to be done; money will have to be spent, and must be spent now, for it will be perfectly useless when a crisis comes upon us; the loss cannot possibly be made up then.
I should like to say one word about foot-and-mouth disease and swine fever. I was very glad indeed to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that the Government have approached the Argentine Government with a request that they will at any rate defer the enforcement of restrictions against the importation of stock until it is ascertained whether or not this most unfortunate outbreak in the North of England remains completely isolated. That is a matter of the greatest importance to the breeders of pedigree stock in this country. This outbreak could not have occurred at a more disastrous moment. The stock sales are just beginning. For something like two years the exportation of this stock has been barred, and it comes to this that many who have been the most successful breeders have been hardest hit. The loss to them is so serious that if it goes on much longer it is very doubtful whether they will be able to continue their breeding operations. The present position means largely deferred profits, and some considerable actual loss, if it is not disastrous; but if it continues it will be? disastrous. It is a most serious matter. Personally I have been in very close communication—as the right hon. Gentleman probably knows from his Department—in the Argentine with the men who import this stock, and with those breeders in this country who export it. I believe they are quite anxious that every possible step should be taken by the two Governments so that the trade, which is of the greatest value to both countries, should not, owing to this unfortunate accident, be brought to what is little short of an end or be permanently injured. I do hope that this Government will realise the position, and that they and the Argentine Government will be able to find some means of minimising the difficulties which have been created.
In regard to the causes of the disease itself. Amongst the possible causes which are being investigated is one that I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has considered—I refer to Russian oats which come to this country. I believe that the disease is very widespread at the present time in Russia. I believe Russia is reeking with foot-and-mouth disease. Russian oats are a large import into this country. I am sure nobody would desire to interfere with them, especially as oats are very dear at this moment. But the matter is one requiring careful investigation. Then as to swine fever, I only wish to say this: that what has been done, as hon. Members know, is that we have for the last few years been subjected to the most vexatious and costly regulations, and in spite of them the disease has gradually gained upon us. I am sure that the President of the Board of Agriculture and the House will agree that when restrictions are proved to be useless they should not be continued. Only those restrictions should be continued which have proved themselves to be useful. I do not quite gather what are the nature of the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman. He proposes, he said, to isolate certain areas which he called "clean" areas, and which might consist of one or more counties or parts of counties which might be grouped together and an artificial frontier created, within which, I understand, unaffected stock will be perfectly free.
assented.
I am afraid that will be very difficult. I should be very sorry, without considerable thought and consultation with experts, to pronounce any definite opinion upon it. It seems both complicated and difficult.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to explain. The difficulty now in a great many of those areas is that if you were to apply the restriction upon those areas the movement of stock would become more and more difficult. The proposal I wish to act upon is to have a much larger area in which freer movement can take place. It is with a view to provide free movement in areas where there can be no carrying of infection that I propose to make this modification of the Regulation.
That may be very satisfactory. Will it not restrict any more the movements in the areas which are not affected? It will not make it any more difficult to move into the clean areas from areas that may be affected.
What I intended to do was to provide for the whole period beyond which infection is supposed to be impossible of being carried, namely, three months between other areas and these clean areas. That would make a considerable difference in these counties entirely clean. It would keep up their exports and would keep out unclean areas.
The fact is swine fever is such a mysterious disease that my experience is whenever a pig is ill it always turns out to be swine fever. No one knows how it is transmitted. It breaks out mysteriously and all restrictions other than immediate slaughter are perfectly useless. That is an obviously necessary precaution. The restrictions against the movements of swine in these particular areas are very vexatious and costly, and I have hitherto had no evidence that they have any satisfactory results at all. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will turn his attention to that aspect of the question as to whether the restrictions can be shown to have had any results, and if they cannot be shown to have had any results how can they be justified.
There is one subject which we are debarred from discussing that I would like to ask about, that is the Report of the Departmental Committee as to the breaking up of estates. I do not want to discuss the subject itself, but rather the action of the Government in regard to it. There was an important report presented which obviously will require discussion in this House. The Government have introduced into another place a Bill which purports to be based upon that report. That Bill has met with absolute condemnation from all quarters. That is not my complaint now. My complaint is we are not likely to have any opportunity of discussing the matter in the House. The action of the Government has been to introduce a Bill in another place, the only effect of which is to bar a discussion here. The Bill is hung up for a fortnight, I understand, and we are prevented from discussing the matter here to-night. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will reply to the questions put to him since he spoke earlier in the evening, and perhaps he will then give some assurance as to the action of the Government, and tell us whether we shall have an opportunity of discussing this Report before the close of the present Session. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hereford asked a question about the Bill promised dealing with hop substitutes, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will answer that question.
There is another question upon which he might also make a statement, and that is bee disease. I hope he will say a word or two as to the attitude of his Department on that subject. On this side of the House we listened with great interest to the speech of the President of the Board of Agriculture, and we are all glad to see the great interest he is taking in the important work of his Department, which covers such an immense area, for it is neither fish, flesh, fowl, nor good red-herring which does not come within the ambit of the right hon. Gentleman's Department. When people have to deal with matters so highly technical and scientific, from an administrative point of view it is better to bring to bear upon it business ability than approach it from the standpoint of special scientific knowledge, because the right hon. Gentleman should be more like a lightship than a navigator. Nobody will deny that the lightship is essential to the navigator, but we do not desire to set lightships to navigate the ocean. This Debate has been conducted without party feeling, and I hope every hon. Member realises that the interests of agriculture in this country are still of supreme interest. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite all agree with that in theory, but I wish they would remember it in legislation which does not appear to affect agriculture. There is so much legislation which apparently does not affect agriculture, but which really affects it very seriously. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will remember that the interests of this great industry are constantly being affected in this House, and that he will not confine his interest to the criticisms of his Department, but carry that interest into the Cabinet, and bear it in mind in all the legislation which this House deals with.
I wish to refer to the question of the increase of housing accommodation in rural districts, and the necessity of having some alteration made in the agricultural education of the village population. I will only say that any steps which the right hon. Gentlemen can take to increase housing accommodation will have my most hearty support. On the matter of small holdings it will be within the right hon. Gentleman's knowledge that there has been a large experiment at Boxted, the parish in which I live. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could see his way to send one of his Commissioners down to the Salvation Army small holdings at Boxted to make inquiries as to their working. There is a lot of money behind them, and everything pointed to their success. I want the right hon. Gentleman to have a report made as to the reasons for the apparent failure of that experiment. It may be that the land is not suitable, and it would be useful to know what standard of quality it is necessary to have in the land before embarking upon such an experiment. It may be the capital was not large enough. There may be endless lessons to be learned from what I call the apparent failure of that experiment. I do not cast any blame upon the Salvation Army or upon the character of the men engaged. I want to leave that altogether out of the question, and regard it merely as a method of teaching those interested in the question of small holdings, and to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can see his way to go into the history of that experiment.
In the few minutes that remain I will do my best to answer, very briefly, the questions put to me. First of all, one or two topics have been raised by hon. Gentlemen opposite with special reference to several diseases of animals and also to the prevalence of the warble-fly in hides. The Board is not altogether ignorant on the subject of the warble-fly. Some of our scientific officers have been inquiring into the life history of the warble-fly for some years past. I do not know whether their more recent investigations are likely to be very enlightening to the hide owners of this country, but such information as we have we hope to make public in a revised leaflet. The hon. Gentleman also asked if we were likely to give any more information on the subject of the Johne's disease in the forthcoming Report. He will find in that Report an up-to-date account of such investigations as may have been carried out.
May we hope to have that soon?
It has already gone to the printers, and I hope it will be out in three or four days. His third request was that in the case of an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease here the Argentine Government should be informed very quickly of the fact of the destruction of such animals as were likely to be affected. The Argentine Government in the last case of outbreak, I believe, were not informed officially, although it was informed unofficially, of what had taken place; but that made no difference to the length of time the decree stopping the importation of cattle from Argentine had effect. I think it was almost exactly six months to the day. In this case we have already made communication, through our Minister at Buenos Ayres, and also at Montevideo; and they will be seized of all the information we can give them at the earliest possible moment. My hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Mr. Bowerman) referred to the importation of live cattle. I know he is personally interested in that subject. I can only repeat what I have said on previous occasions. Until we know more about keeping infectious diseases of animals out of this country, not only I, but the whole of the agricultural community, all the scientists, and everyone who has inquired into infectious diseases of animals, are of the same opinion, and that is that to increase the risk of disease by importation is much more likely to be detrimental to the food supply of the country than any of the benefits my hon. Friend desires are likely to accrue. I do not know that any more inopportune moment could be chosen. All agriculturists at the present moment are in a state of alarm at making any change in our Regulations. I do not support these. Regulations with any view of pressing Protection on this country. I am not a Protectionist. I do not think I ever shall be, except in so far as I wish to protect this country against the importation of disease, and that is a matter of importance not only to the breeder of livestock, but to all those who are dependent for their employment upon the breeding of livestock. I feel we should be very cautious in risking such a spread of disease as we have known in the past; and I fear I cannot give my hon. Friend the assurance for which he asks—that we should immediately throw open our ports to the importation of live cattle from abroad.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why he is pressing on the Argentine Government a line of policy which the Department refused to recognise when it was suggested to them by the Argentine Government?
If the Argentine were entirely free from disease it would be treated like other countries which are free, but I fear it is by no means free from disease. The communications which I have made to our Minister at Buenos Ayres have been made in the interests not only of the breeders of cattle, but also in those of purchasers of cattle out there. If they were able to prove beyond any manner of doubt that there is absolute freedom from disease not only in Argentina, but also in the countries contiguous thereto, I should be quite willing to reconsider the whole position, but until such an assurance is given I am afraid I cannot undertake to do as my hon. Friend asks. Perhaps, in view of the many discussions we have had on the subject, I may be allowed to refrain from further discussing the question of the Small Holdings Commissioners beyond saying that if we had not last year appointed more Commissioners the two existing Commissioners would have been killed with overwork. They were actually on the point of breaking down when they received additional assistance, and all of them are now hard at work. It is absurd to speak of the eight Small Holdings Commissioners as sitting down to fat jobs. They are hard-worked men, who cover a great deal of country, and they are of assistance, not only to the Board, but to the county councils themselves, and no one who has any knowledge whatever of their work can say for a single instant that they do not earn every penny of their salary. I need not go further into that.
There are two or three other topics I may refer to before we go to a division. The hon. Gentleman who last spoke asked me particularly with regard to hop legislation. I cannot discuss legislation here, but I may say when it was suggested there should be a Bill introduced on the subject, the Leader of the House said he would be prepared to give Government facilities provided it could be treated as a non-contentious measure. That undertaking has never been given, and I do not see much chance at the present time for such a Bill, even if the undertaking can now be given. That applies to some extent to one or two of the other legislation suggestions made this evening. On the subject of bee-keeping I can inform the House that I hope to introduce a a small Bill which will enable us to bring the Isle of Wight bee disease under control. I hope to be able to isolate it in certain districts, but the difficulty is great seeing that bees travel over large areas and are not likely to respect any boundaries set up by the Board of Agriculture. I have one piece of good news for bee- keepers. So far as we can ascertain from our representatives in various parts of the country, the disease is making no headway. An hon. Member asked me whether, in presenting accounts as to woodlands, etc., I would take into account the burdens which fall on such property in respect of the Death Duties. I will certainly carry out his wishes, and in presenting any information I will, as far as possible, make it completely comparable, and will show these burdens on the debit side just as are shown any other burdens likely to fall on the private owner who manages his woodlands on the present lines.
The other subject to which he referred was that of light horse breeding. I cannot go into that at any greater length tonight except to say that we are acting under the advice of an exceptionally strong central Committee. I am bound to accept a great deal of the advice given by them, and I should hope to make no new departure without having their expert advice. Before sitting down I should like to make reference to one topic which I intended to mention this afternoon, that is with regard to a testing station which will shortly be set up by the Board near to Pirbright out of the money granted by the Development Commission. I do not mind where the money comes from so long as it is available for the Board of Agriculture. This money will come out of the Development Fund. We shall shortly have in operation, in the centre of War Office land, a farm which will be used as a station for testing cattle for tuberculosis, red water, and other diseases. Twenty thousand pounds has been put at our disposal, and we shall have a farm completely isolated and entirely surrounded by War Office commons. The animals there will be under the control of stockmen, who will be servants of the Board, and they will be carefully watched. Similar experiments which have been conducted on a small scale will be conducted on a large scale at this farm. The whole proposal has been welcomed so heartily by our Dominions that I believe we shall find our stalls full from the first. Some foreign countries have taken kindly to the idea, and I understand they will accept a certificate granted by our Department in lieu of the inspection that must otherwise happen in foreign ports. The welcome this has received from foreign countries will, I hope, not be unnoted by the stock breeders of this country It will enable them to have their cattle imported into some of our Dominions and foreign countries without the risk of the cattle being rejected at the port of debarkation. As far as I can tell, the great ranch owners of South America, and certainly of South Africa, are prepared to take full advantage of the facilities that we shall have provided. I have no doubt that this will grow into a larger testing station, and I hope sooner or later to have the Board's laboratory for practical work brought as near as possible to this farm so that the staff may be used for this purpose. We have had a discussion over a large range of subjects, and I hope the Committee will now be able to come to a decision and allow the Department to have its Vote.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not forget the question I asked him, but in view of the satisfactory answers we have received on everything else I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Class 1.—SURVEYS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM
Resolved, (2)."That a sum not exceeding £129,589, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1913, for the Survey of the United Kingdom, and for minor services connected therewith." [Note: £85,000 has been voted on account.]
Resolutions to be reported to-morrow; Committee to sit again to - morrow (Thursday).
Newton-In-Makerfield Lighting Scheme
I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
I rise to raise a question which I am allowed to do by the courtesy of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade as to the action of his Department in regard to an application which has been made to the Board by the Newton-in-Makerfield Urban District Council, which is in the constituency that I have the honour to represent. They applied to the Board for an Order to permit them to manufacture and distribute electricity in the district. The Board refused to grant that Order. I should be very much obliged if the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to give to the House some explanation of the principles which guide his Department in matters of this sort. The facts of the case are as follows: In 1903 the Newton Council obtained an Order from the Board to manage electricity in their district. Having obtained that Order the Council, on going very carefully into the question and canvassing individual firms and shopkeepers, came to the conclusion that it would not be a payable proposition at that date, and therefore they did not avail themselves of the Order. As they did not avail themselves of the Order the Board of Trade withdrew it in 1909. This year the Newton Council had the prospect of supplying the London and North-Western Railway and other big works in the district with electricity, and therefore they made a fresh application to the Board of Trade for permission to undertake the enterprise. The Board of Trade refused to sanction the Order. I am here on behalf of the Newton-in-Makerfield Urban District Council to ask whether the Board will not reconsider their decision. The council point out, and in my opinion rightly, that since 1903 the manufacture of electricity has become very much cheapened by inventions, that it is supplied at much less cost than it then was, and that during the same period the population of the district has very largely increased. Newton and Earlstownr the two townships in the district are very growing communities.
Notice taken that forty Members were not present; House counted and forty Members not being present,
The House was adjourned at Thirteen minutes past Eleven o'clock until to-morrow (Thursday).